18 Episode results for "Virginia Commonwealth University"

In 'Thick,' Tressie McMillan Cottom Looks At Beauty, Power And Black Womanhood In America

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

47:58 min | 2 years ago

In 'Thick,' Tressie McMillan Cottom Looks At Beauty, Power And Black Womanhood In America

"This message comes from on points sponsor rocket mortgage by Quicken Loans. Introducing rate shield approval if you qualify, and if rates go up your rate stays the same. But if rates go down, you'll rate also drops to learn more, go to rocketmortgage dot com slash on point. From WB. You are Boston and NPR Meghna talker birdie, and this is on point beauty politics, inequality gender money. They are familiar themes endlessly discussed, but are we hearing every essential voice in those discussions rhetorical question. Of course, because the answer is obviously, no, for example, not enough of us have heard the searing analysis from sociology professor and black feminist thinker trustee McMillan Cottam in her new collection of essays Cottam says her work is animated by what still seen as a quote, radical idea. Black women are rational and human from that assumption. She says she works her way analytically through political theory economics, history, sociology and culture. She says it rarely fails her this hour on point Tracy McMillan caught him a voice of modern black womanhood. And you can join us. What's your experience of Blackwood womanhood in America? Have you read trustee McMillan Cottam, and what do you think? Join us anytime it on radio dot org or Twitter and Facebook ad on point radio and Tracy McMillan Cottam joins us today. From Richmond Virginia. She's a professor of sociology at Virginia Commonwealth university. She's published frequently in the Washington Post slate, the Atlantic among many others and much of that work now appears in her debut collection. It's titled thick and other essays. Professor caught him. Welcome to on point. Thank you so much for having me make now, it's a great pleasure to have you on the program. First of all, can I just ask you about the title? Because I it's one that grabbed your attention. But I think maybe a lot of people wondering thick where she going with this. While if they're wondering where I'm going with that it says a lot about the reader, first of all, I should tell you that. Right. So young readers people's been a lot of time on social media may be in popular culture. Absolutely, see it and and start laughing. They think is a bit of an inside joke because it is often used in especially youth culture in African American culture to me in a certain type of physical presence. And this is where everybody usually starts googling a picture of me. And I would just really suggest no-one do that. But it does usually suggest a certain at presentation of feminine entity right of being somewhere between a thin and what we would probably call fat. There's this category out there that we think of as thick. But there's also one of the plays on the title. The title essay is the idea that I also wanted to connect how we move through the world. Physically as women with black women's bodies in this world and connect that to our political thought in our in the way that we think in approached the world, I haven't understanding that black women like any other group of people any other subculture has a political philosophy in an ideology, and we've got a history of thought and that history of thought when I reflected on the things that had been most instructive in my own learning over the course of becoming a girl in a woman in the society, the theme resonating with me of nuance of depth of complexity in the history of that thinking, and to me that was just another way to think about thick. And then I wanted to write essays that would expose these different ideas. And these different ways of thinking about the world to people who may not experience him themselves, and for that drew on this idea of thick ethnography, which comes out of anthropology and sociology, which is this idea that if we get it, right? If we accurately represent the nuance of how a culture experience. Is the world people who are not a part of that culture can get a window into how people navigate society. Right. Okay. So I was wondering if you might read a little excerpt from that I s a shrum from thick because it really gives us this powerful sense about what you're exactly talking about. And you you bring in your frequently your own life experiences as well. So so from this little excerpt that we've chosen here cue said it's up set it up forest before you read, it you talk about Rx Rudeina, very dean say I may need to pronounce that one for you. Now, it helps it helps tremendously if you're southern when you say this. I'm from North Carolina, and like many communities that have a historically robust the black community. They're usually was a street that was known as a black Wall Street, right where African Americans were usually because of segregation lived and worked together an had businesses and sort of a thriving economic center in Charlotte, North Carolina's no exception in Charlotte. The heart of our black Wall Street was a street named Beattie's Ford road and that street, although integration sorta decimated the economic center, it doesn't decimate the cultural sentence Obeidi sports, still figures, very prominently in my experience of growing up black and Charlotte, North Carolina. And that's where my story begins. We'll go ahead and read the excerpt if you could on my first of only two visits to routines. I set alone at the bar waiting for friends as a man sidled up next to me, he talked I mostly demured waited on my Croker plate fried hard just before he asked for. My phone number. He said, hey, you know, your hair thick your nose thick your lipstick. All you just thick. It was true. If not artfully stated being too much of one thing and not enough of another had been a recurring theme in my life. I was like many young women expected to be small. So that boys could expand and white girls could shine when I would not or could not shrink people made sure that I knew I had aired. I was like many black children too much for white teachers and white classrooms. White study groups in white girl scout troops and so on thick where I should have been thin more when I should have been less our high school teacher nicknamed me Miss Personality, and it did not feel like super live. Let's trustee McMillan cotton Cottam reading from her new a collection of essays, titled thick and other essays. The can you just? Take us a little bit more into what you're talking about here. Professor Cottam if you could about being like you said being too much and being, but you've been seeing you have to be or being forced to be less than you are to tell me more. It's the it's the duality and a complexity of this idea of being hyper visible, right? So there's the sense that because you are physically different when you are attending integrated schools as I did in Charlotte North Carolina in like, a mini students of that generation did as the black student in an integrated school, you were visible, particularly if you were academe ethically, gifted, or, you know, our high achieving student as I was in many of my friends were there in Charlotte, North Carolina, and because people wanted to invest in the idea of high achieving black students or they want to invest in the idea of the poor damage students that need a lot of attention. And while the the the motivation there may start from a good place, not always, but may start from good place. What that does is? Create the sense of no matter what you do your constantly seen by thority figures, and whether that'd be white teachers or by white students who often have a greater sense of ownership of the school than you do. And while they may always see you. That's the visibility part. The hyper visibility part says, they don't always get to know you. And so while you may constantly be seen right navigating the hallways, and you may be picked out by a students and teachers there's not usually an effort to get to know your perspective on the world to understand what we might call to be culturally responsive to how people approach the world differently. And the, hyper visibility means that you both can't hide. But also never feel completely seeing by thority figures by your peer groups and trapped in this face of hyper visibility. I think is where we wrestle with the ideas of what part of me matters, which all young people are grappling with. But I think that when you are a black woman it comes with particular risks. There's also another recurring theme in this first essay that I'd love for you to see free to talk with us about. And because you mentioned it repeatedly about fixing your feet. Yes. So fixing your feet is this metaphor that draws on very real part of my life. Which is I grew up with people might today. Call being bowlegged and pigeon toed. So actually, I'm actually nursing hurt foot today. I should tell you and I had to go to the orthopedic surgeon yesterday who looks at me. And you know, it's dismayed and says do you realize how flat your feet are? And I go, yes, I promise you someone has made me aware of this at some point in my life, a lot of conversation when I was growing up about how normally I would walk if I would need prosthetics. If anybody remembers a scene from Forrest Gump, I was Forrest Gump pre braces. And and so part of this was this narrative of my mother, knowing that I had this issue when I was very young and being told by medical professionals that they really should to a pretty major intervention to fix that for me. But the intervention was expensive, and it was painful, and my mother decided that no instead of doing that I would just sort of work to overcome right? Physical limitation which by and large. I did all of my life. I have corrected myself. So that I can walk more. Normally what that is done over years. However is that it's caused me extreme pain in the metaphor. I have there's how often those of us who have to fit in to a perception of ourselves by the dominant society that does not feel authentic to us have to change who we fundamentally are. Because the cost of overriding ourselves or rewriting ourselves is so high in the case of surgery to fix my very flat feet in bowlegs. Or in the case of fixing ourselves to be less female, less black less, whatever we are that is deemed unacceptable for dominant society that we tried to fix ourselves because we can't fix the way the world perceives us, and while it may work in the short term, just like straightening my feet has worked for many years. It also cumulatively I think negatively impacts us. I think that's why we see things like a persistently high rates of high blood pressure. Her in mental health issues in African American community that don't seem to be able to be explained by biology alone. What public health people have decided that there is the sort of great stew of how statistical discrimination sorta gets embodied in us through whether it's through stress stress hormones, something about our bodies. I think is responding to the fact that all of our lives were fixing our feet in a way that ultimately harms while you write in the book, fixing my feet means knowing how badly the outcomes are likely to be for persisting, and pursuing but doing it. Anyway, as right, and you said fix myself, even when it causes great pain to do. So because I know that I cannot fix the way the world sees me. So we just got about thirty seconds to go here before the first break. I I'm just wondering if you find the through writing is that part of that fixing is it is a step towards fixing. It is you know, it's it. Is a complicated. Reality the reality is this, and it's not one that I think we as consumers of our culture, very comfortable with e not even myself, which is we don't have a whole lot of control over it. But writing a creative energy does help me make sense of it. At least in a way that I think helps me fix my feet in a slightly less painful way, we're taught we'll talk a lot more about the other ideas that you engage with in this marvelous collection of essays it's called thick and other essays in its debut collection from Tracy McMillan Cottam. She is a professor of sociology Virginia Commonwealth university widely published in a number of places the Atlantic's late among them. And again, those essays have been collected into this new book called thick. We'll be right back. This is on point. This message comes from an points sponsor, indeed when it comes to hiring. You don't have time to waste you need help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast with indeed post a job in minutes, set up screener questions then zero in on qualified candidates. And when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsor jobs. New users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash NPR, podcast, terms, conditions, and quality standards apply. Hey, it's Peter Saito from wait wait don't tell me if you're a normal. Wait, wait listener, you shout out the answers to all the questions, and then you get frustrated that no one can tell how smart you are. Here's the solution. Wait, wait quiz available now on your smart speaker, just ask your smart speaker to open the wait, wait quiz. Finally, your genius shall be recognized. This is on point Meghna, trucker bardy. We're talking this hour with Tracy McMillan Cottam. She is a writer columnist and professor of sociology Virginia Commonwealth university. She's author of the marvelous new collection of essays it's called thick and other essays. She's also previously author of the book lower Ed the troubling rise of for profit colleges in the new economy. And by the way, we have an excerpt from thick at our website on point radio dot org, and we're at one eight hundred four two three eight two five five that's eight hundred four to three talk. If you've got a question for Tracy McMillan caught him up, professor Cottam. Oh, just want to I want to engage with a bunch of your other essays through the rest of this hour. But but I do want to just get to a simple question about g the tensions that that black public intellectuals may feel in terms of and especially black women because a lot of what you write about is is talking about how how the bla- the experience of black women. Ought to be honored and recognized and learn from every day in America in and of itself, just by fact, but you also write about your personal story as well. So I'm just wondering is there is there a tension there between saying like, look, listen because we are experts. But will also do feel obligated to weave your own personal narrative into it. And did you sit I'm getting out. I do I do. Yeah. I think about that tension in many ways this book is my one of the ways that I am practicing or trying to come to live with that tension and trying to figure out quite frankly, if it can be navigated, I'm not arrogant enough to think that I would be the first person to figure out on the crack that very complicated issue to fix it in my own life. Anyway, this has been of issue for black women who have been doing intellectual work for the whole recorded history of our time in western society. Which is that what people tend to want from us what an audience wants when? They want to consume what black women produce as our intellectual work as they often want to do they want to consume our emotions and our experiences, which is not always the same as respecting our expertise, and our intellectual contribution. Now. That's a problem for women intellectuals were large I would like to say, but as I will say to people it can be a problem for everybody. I just happened to be talking about black women. At because I do think it is particularly acute for black women because what you're butting up against their stereotypes about who is allowed to be expert. Right. And the farther away you move from our dominant assumptions about who should have expertise, generally speaking, the more, you have to prove that you have a legitimate claim to whatever you're speaking on for black women that means we're dealing with idea racist ideas and stereotypes about whose knowledge is valuable, but we're also dealing with gender stereotypes about who should be allowed to speak into lead. We're also dealing with class issues about because African American women for all the reasons I would hope many of us know are less likely to be represented in high income status groups, we are also dealing with the issues of class when more likely to be poor or working class, and our society also doesn't value expertise from those groups of people and so just layer and layer upon sort of inequalities manifest in this way. This is for black women. To be respected as experts on whatever it is. We've been trained in whatever, you know, experiences. We bring to a conversation. We almost always I have to present a palatable form of our, you know, our sob story. I, you know, I talk about in the book is, you know, how angry sometimes my senior black woman colleagues will get when they say, you're bleeding instead of thinking, you're bleeding on the page, and the problem there, of course, is that sometimes oftentimes too often dominant publications and outlets won't let us think until we have I bled. Jimmy pause here because because of what I wanna do is actually go back to a personal example, and you write about in the book. And of course, I'm feeling we'll awkward about that. Because talking about this. Reading the book feeling uncomfortable. I should just say is a brand and that may just be unavoidable. But, but you talk about that, you know, the the expertise of black women is question not just sort of in the intellectual realm, but even in the context of their very own individual lives. I mean because you're talk about this, you know, being seen as incompetent in terms of something as deeply personal as their own bodies Karuk and what I'm leading to. Here's where you write about, you know, black motherhood, and and the terrible rates of maternal mortality that we see in in this country multiple times higher for black women than other women. I mean, this is something that you not maternal mortality. But you experience a terrible thing years yourself because you well, you tell the story I'll just stop talking stop talking let your guess tell the story this as as a wonderful example, though, seriously of exactly that conflict, which is at a never wanted to tell the story there is an everybody's life. And I don't think I'm special in this way, my experience just Purtill. Regular not not exceptional. But in every life. There's I think a trauma that potentially changes who you are. And my trauma is particularly traumatic loss of my child. I had all the hallmarks necessary to have a fairly typical pregnancy in the wealthiest nation in the world. I was middle class. I was educated. I was married. I was healthy. I had chosen what I say. In the book was you know, good doctor on the white side of town, which is that rough cultural geography that we often use when we are trying to figure out a good service provider a good school. Whether it be a good school, a good home or good job my doctor's office, and my hospital was one where well-heeled white women went. And so I expected to have a fairly typical pregnancy and instead of not only didn't have typical pregnancy. But I realize that misunderstood what a typical pregnancy was for a black woman in the United States of America typical. For a black woman is more potentially fraught with emotional and physical negative outcomes than it is for white women. And in fact, our experiences of childbirth and labor in this country are on par with what we might think is more typical in quote, unquote. You know, developing nations black women are dying and our children are dying trying to be born in this country in a way that's not true for any other group in the United States of America. And I thought I was an exception. If you want to know the truth, and one of the things, I learned is that I couldn't be an exception. It didn't matter. How educated I was it didn't matter that I tried to make all of the right choices at the moment when the healthcare system need, it mean to be whatever they assume, but typical black woman should be in my in my position, they treat me that way until I was as incompetent as the assume that I was and in that looked like not believing me when I said, I was having labor pains it looked like. Not being proactive to figure out why my labor was starting so early it looks like not providing me pain management, and it looks like in the end blaming me for not making them treat me better. The last thing the nurse said to me, she was leaving as I was sitting there having just lost my child, and we just figured out whether or not we were going to have a funeral for her. If she'd been alive long enough to have a funeral was the question, and the nurse turns to me and says, you know, it's not our fault. There was nothing. We could do you never told us you were in late. But that's fairly typical not because and that's that's the devastating part that this is what we do and drawing from my particular case, I never wanted to write about it because I don't ever want to trade in trauma in and of itself. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just not what I do. But I felt like I couldn't tell the larger story of how we structurally make some people incompetent. So that other people can enact competency, more in our society without telling why I had come to know it because part of how it come to know is that it should not have happened. Right. It was the exceptional nature of the fact that it should not have happened. But the very pedestrian fact that it does happen. Every day was how I had come to know it, and I wanted to value that as much as I did, my intellectual knowledge, I have to say this. This is the story. This is why was falling all over myself to asking you to tell the story because you know, I've I've been fortunate to have a couple of kids myself, and and this really hit me personally, professor Cottam because. I it just it's one of those moments where you realize oh my God, the degree of one's own privilege. Right. And because I cannot imagine any person in the medical field that I interacted with during my pregnancies ever turning to me and saying well, you didn't tell us ex. Yeah. They they would never do that. And I hadn't thought of it. I had thought of it that way until you know, until I read what you wrote. And I it's just stunning because you're you're right. If if anyone in a medical profession looks at a woman who had just lost their child and say, you didn't tell us urine labor. They are telegraphing this presumption less right that the responsibility lies with you. And that you're not smart enough to know what what's even going on for yourself. That's an entire system communicating that and as and as you, right? It's not just you. That's right. This is a defacto experience of zome any black women in this country. And I think what you know, what's really important to me in that story. I mean, lots is important, obviously. But if I if I had my choice. Of what I hope people took from that. It was that. You can do everything right in our society. But based on who you are you can never do everything right enough. Well, we know impurity from research is that education an income do not protect black women from these experiences like they protect every other group of people. So in our society, if you go to school and get a good job where you're born to wealthy. Do all of those things you get better health care better outcomes. That is not true for black woman is not true for our children. And that says something not about black women. But about the way that we refuse to allow black women access to the same type of mobility that we assume everyone has and then it becomes invisible. Just as you were saying MAC magnate becomes part of the background noise of everybody else's experience. And part of what I'd hoped to do as the volume up on the background noise. But you know, I think one of the great moments of generosity, and your writing is that you you write about how okay beginning with this experience of black women in, you know. V the medical establishment everyday. You also write about how you see that more and more of us are, you know, there's one Rivero quote her saying that more and more of us are caught in the trap of chasing competence yet. Right. So you're you're sort of generously. Offering the experience of black women as a hey, look, it's not just one group of people. That's right. That in fact, if you do not see that the way that black women are made incompetent does not speak to the ways that you will probably be incompetent in the near future that you're probably missing the whole point of our shared humanity. The reality is whatever the healthcare system did to me the education system is doing to all of us, and the economic system seems to becoming for all the rest of the people who left on the table that sort of you can never be competent enough to overcome the realities of politics and economics wants it has been decided that this process needs to be set in motion that individuals can't do that that this. We need something bigger and deeper and broader than that. But it cannot happen. If you don't start with the people who have experienced at the most and for the longest, well, let's go to some callers here because they've been saying waiting very patiently to speak with you. I'm speaking with Tracy McMillan Khadem. She's a professor of sociology Virginia Commonwealth university widely published a writer as well and many of her essays appear in the marvelous new collection. It's titled thick and other essays. And let's go to the phones. Angela is calling from Baltimore Maryland. Angela you're on the air. Hello. And thank you so much for taking my call. Thank you, professor Khartum. I wanted this Gus the code switching that a lot of especially African American female professional have to undergo I live in Baltimore City. I live in the harder city. So I, and I'm also a licensed social worker, so I encounter, and I would say even the my professional studies before I was licensed, I encountered amongst my peers this, I guess this dissonance. You know, just not understanding that I'm hearing professional school because I qualified just as you. I had a discussion with my classmates when we're talking about what was going on in Baltimore. And I used the word blight be boy L, and he said to me this is a Caucasian young girl, and I have to say, I'm non-judicial student. I was at the time almost forty and she looked at me and said you mean plates, right? No, I I mean, the lights, and she then looked at the the Japanese American woman who was the next to me and said is that a word? And my mother looked at her as if she had six is said Dell. Yeah. And again, you know, we I find myself on a regular basis having to prove my the literature haven't you prove myself worthy of where I am not because I question myself. But because everyone else seems to have a question Mark over there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Angela. I talk about my experience of coats, which ING is Angela describes it's you know, constant navigation one way to think about coast which switching is any minority group in a majority society is usually tasked with managing the emotions of the majority members of the group and one of the ways we do that is to be able to switch efficiently fluently between cultural languages and discourses. Right. So and black people tend to be particularly good at this an island. Like to think that we have developed one of the more robust cultures of code switching that exists. And listen, I love that. We have this sort of cultural fluency, but I also wanted to push back. I think in this text on the tax that has on people as Angela really describes their of this constant navigating of making people comfortable because his Angela points out in as many people a black women have experienced there really is not enough coach switching that we can do to demonstrate to people who fundamentally do not believe that we have agency or a value or intelligences. There's really not enough coats, which we can do to make those people. Okay. Right. So when the person turns to look who's deterrence to in that exchange for validation of whether or not the word is a word. Right. You don't you don't even discuss it with the person who said it, right? So what do you mean by there's no follow up about? Oh, is that what that were me? Oh is that what that is? Oh, I've never called it that you know, what we call it where I'm from. That would be a normal sort of exchange. But when you are looking to the others around you who are not the black women sort of validate the person as they sit there. There was no code switching that was going to fix that. And that's why I talk about as much as I enjoy the cultural tradition. One of the things privileges. I'm exercising lately. In my life is not coats witching, not because I cannot or should not because I want people to feel more uncomfortable in those moments is when people are in that moment suspended in half to reflect on why they're uncomfortable that maybe they'll see their actions. Right. Maybe it'll prompt them to be more reflexive about why they return to someone else to figure out whether or not the black woman knows the word that she was using. Well, we're speaking with Tracy McMillan Cottam caught him. She is a writer columnist professor of sociology at Virginia Commonwealth university. A lot of haranguing has been now put into the new collection. It's called thick and other essays. She explores beauty. Money identity experiences that define black womanhood in America. Professor Cottam is also author of the book lower Ed the troubling rise of four profit colleges in the new economy, professor caught up when we come back on ask you about beauty and black women. Okay. So stick with us. We'll be right back. This is on point. Before you can start your day you like to know what's happening in the news. That's what I is for. It's the morning news podcasts from NPR the news. You need to take on the day in just about ten minutes. Listen to up first on the NPR one apple or wherever you get your podcasts. This is on point a mega truck bardy. We're talking this hour with Tracy McMillan Cottam. She is a professor of sociology of Virginia Commonwealth university widely published writer columnist as well and many essays now appear in the debut essay collection, titled Fiqh and other essays and professor Cottam is with us today from Richmond Virginia with go and take another call here. Let's go to Jude who's calling from New Orleans. Judy you're on the air. Percents econom-. Are you today? I'm wonderful Jude. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. So my question is how have you been received given the topic that you are bringing up in Richmond, Virginia the? Capital of though, isn't it though? Yes. It is. I am an ex residence of them city, and I will say being a I guess nearly a lifelong southerner it is a different type of house, and I would say that the way that I was raised in Louisiana is a lot different then health as worthier due for a second for for those of us who aren't lifelong southerners when you say a play in the rule for all listeners here when you say, it's a different kind of type of stuff. What did you mean? Well, I felt very restricted. I felt like there were like I said rules that I was not privy to. You know, I I think you know, New Orleans sort of is. Place where it's very hospitable to all. And and you know, people, you know, you walk down the street. You can ask just about any stranger for directions. And and you don't get strange looks. You don't, you know, there just isn't a sort of know, your place of you know, attitude, and, you know, I it was very strange, and and you know, it was weird to see a place that sort of clung to that southern Ness, but had this very boundary. You know, these these boundaries on and so here, you're sort of almost blowing open these like okay about. Is worried about my health and wellbeing and I really receive. No. I know exactly what you mean. Like, jude. You know, I'm a southerner. Although in the book, I do admit my lifelong shame. I finally had to out myself. I was actually born in New York forgivable. I know listen, I had letters angry letters from people. Go in your whole thing has been a lot. I was like I get it. I do so sorry, but I was raised in the south by deep southerners, and I very much a child of the south, and I've lived all over the country actually enjoyed in deliberately lived in California. Did Boston for awhile in New York, Chicago, and I come back to the south. And I think Judy would probably understand this. There's nothing quite like being black and being embedded in the south and understanding this place, whether whether it is always good for us. There is some value in understanding the US south, and I'm not one who wants to write that off. But to Jude's point. I think that Virginia and Richmond is interest. It is it is the still sort of proud home of the former confederacy in the south the civil wars alive here in a way that has never been true for me anywhere else that I have lived in the south, and is still very tangible here, but you know, the sort of movement of the New South city that has been happening. It's been happening for the last thirty years or so it Lanta Charlotte North Carolina places that sort of want to embrace its history while critically while at the same time moving forward. I think there's some momentum of for that here in Richmond. It just happened here. I think later than it has other large urban areas. But you know, there's a reason why ground myself and my work in the south, even when it's complicated as it is here in Richmond Virginia, I do think that's still a story about the black American experience that matters. I'm even as we turn our eye to how how diverse the black black culture is. And I talk in the book about never want people to confuse my story of blackness in the US. As the story of blackness in the US. And so I'm always very clear to sort of ground. That's one thing that biography does for me in these essays is to ground my analysis in who I am. So that the reader understands that you can never completely separate those two things. Well, let's go to another caller perhaps about this point as well. Carmen is calling from Omaha. Nebraska Carmen, you're on the air. Hello and Hello, professor. How are you low Harmon? I'm great. Thank you. I am loving hearing all your stories and all the things that you have to say agree a thousand percent with you. I, you know, I think that all women need a voice, especially women of color in my parents came to the United States in the sixties, and my mother could speak for languages and head to masters degrees. And everyone thought through stupid, you know, when she would call on the phone because she had an accent. Right. So I hear you know, I I can relate what you're saying about how you have to prove seem how you know women of color up to prove themselves over and over. I'm just curious about what you think of the voices of guy Mond and silk. My oh my. Well, you know, they have a voice they're out there. Right. So something so so we should just know that the diamond silk are the two African American women. They're very popular on on social media for their for their very enthusiastic support of President Trump support and commentary for the president's. And so, yeah, what do you think about diamond? So I'll be honest. I don't know that I think about them a whole lot except I will say this. You know, there's a old mine and sorta like African American literature about black people are not a monolith. That's the standby answer, which is kind of part of my early raise that you never want to say that there is a singular acceptable experience of being black in the United States. And that would include our political beliefs in affiliations. There have always been black conservatives in this country, and the probably always will be us because we actually have a lot of conservative impulses in our black, social institutions and black culture. To the extent that there aren't more black people who support, you know, GOP candidates like a Donald Trump. It is generally because GOP policies in rhetoric tends to be so aggressively, you know, racist in its discourse that you know, it turns off black conservative voters, but there's still always been black voters, including black women who sort of proud conservatives. I would say that. I am always in favor of us having more than one black woman's voice. I'm never arguing for a singular voice. And in fact, a single voice might be more dangerous than having no voice at all in public discourse. And I mean that even if it's my voice, you know, sometimes that's tell people I'm not lobbying for a job. Right. I really love the job that I have. I'm not asking to make me the official voice of black women. But to say that there is space for there to be more than one type of representation and voice for black women in our political popular discourse. And you know, just if I'm going to be a good moral person. I have to say that includes. Diamond and sill as much as that might make me choke just a little well, what do you make of the criticism that they often receive from you know, from perhaps other members of the black community who say that. I don't want that that there's somehow betraying African Americans by being so so vociferously in support of the and particularly in a time where Democrats were example loved, you know, love to say, well, you know, black women are quote, unquote, saving America by voting in large numbers democrat. I mean here will. So look takes us back to what you were saying earlier that once again. Black women are are put in this place of representing some writing for other people, right? I was just about to say this is actually to me the risk of those types of truisms as much as they sometimes are coming from a good place. So this thing about, you know, trust black women believed like women black women will save us. You know, black superwomen black women here to save the day. This is the risk of those types of narratives, a stereotype that is positive is still a stereotype what those what stereotypes do is that they flatten people inexperienced. That's the entire point. A stereotype is sort of a mental shortcut to help us understand group of people based on very limited knowledge, and what I'm arguing is that at this point in our history. We don't have limited knowledge about black women. There's no need for the stereotype is not serving any positive value at this point. And even a positive stereotype like trust all black women negates. The fact that black women can be wrong. And in fact, there's nothing wrong with being wrong. I do. Not one black women to be super human. We're already human in that super enough. Well, let's get back to some of the essays the that you have in in thick, and then you collection. There's one in particular like to spend a minute or to talking about or more than a minute or two that's about black girlhood because we've been talking about black women, but really women love to hear your thoughts on black girl because you write about it so powerfully in the essay black girlhood interrupted tell us tells more about that I was thinking about while. I was thinking about a lot. There was a lot happening as there always is. But there has been this. You know, slow drip, sort of drum beat around sexual violence against black girls here in popular discourse for past few years. There was this really wonderful research report that came out a couple years ago that showed how our culture assumes that black girls are older than they are and how that makes black girls very vulnerable to sexual assault and violence, and then there was also the. Pop culture case of our Kelly is the Rb singer who has for truly as almost as long as I've been alive. I mean, I've known a story about r Kelly's interest in children's sexually for almost as long as I have been alive. That's how long we've been talking about this. And there was this sort of, you know, slow drumbeat combination perhaps with a recent documentary that just aired on lifetime about it. And it just didn't seem to be this thing bubbling up, and I wanted to reflect on how difficult it was for me as a black woman who like all girls, you know, maturing into their womanhood is interested in role models. Right. We love stories about ourselves. And I remember growing up and having so few stories about black girls. Right ahead. The baby sitters club. We had sweet Valley High. I had tons of story coming of age stories for boys, and I started thinking about what were the coming of age stories for black girls? And I realize the easiest way to. Find a story about a black girl was the Rita biography about a black woman and to look for the sexual trauma that it was in almost every biography of black womanhood that I had found that if I wonder story about a black girl, I could generally find it if I looked for the sexual trauma black woman's life. And to me, those were all part of the same sort of milieu of how we've created a cultural narrative that does not honour or recognize or even have a language to talk about black girls as girls and how vulnerable that makes us to things like sexual predation by celebrities or just by rank and file people. Right. I mean, you right in in this essay that the violence is often happens because society deems these girls as disposable, and therefore, we're not focusing enough about how to intervene and help right. We've got narratives the thing about saying that someone is a girl as opposed to a woman right or child as opposed to an adult is very powerful in our. Science children are extended special protections, right and exclusions from expectation social expectations. We say that children need more care that they should be provided a more social resources, we say that children's lives had hold a special value in our society. So when you can survey people and ask them, whether or not an eight year old black girl is responsible for some sexual act that an adult had with her and people can say as they did in one survey. Well at eight years old, she doesn't really look eight. Right. She looked older, right? What we are saying is that we are systematically and categorically excluding black girls from the protection of childhood and everything that means politically and legally they're even different legal sanctions for what you can do to a child as opposed to an adult, and we have categorically excluded girls from those protect. Actions. While in the last essay in the book girl, six at that's essay that I quoted from at the very beginning of our conversation. I just wanna read a paragraph once again that that I quoted from you rain, it is not that all or any black woman is beyond reproach. But that she cannot be reproached merely for being a black woman. It is still a radical idea. And then you say it is at the heart of my research. Black women are rational inhuman working from that assumption. I work my way analytically through political theory economics, history, sociology and culture, it rarely fails me, professor Cottam. I wanted to ask you. How do we get past as being a radical idea? A great question. Saw do think I mean, one of the things that I may be perhaps a bit tongue in cheek in that final essay try to. Critique is how important it is for us to as a society. And I don't mean us just as black women for a super form publicly what it means to engage with black women. That's why I think it matters. It can seem like a really silly thing to say that they're all there. No black women on our op-ed pages of any national newspaper until recently. Michelle Alexander joined of the New York Times fairly recently. But there are no black women at that level of discourse. And go well, yeah. But it's a silly job. You know, it doesn't really matter. Well, what I think those types of jobs do is that they do signal to the greater public who we should take seriously one, right? Who we have to engage with to be participants in public discourse and tomato for people. How do you disagree with a black woman without doing it through negative? Areo types of her. How can we critique the ideas of a black woman political candidate, for example, as it looks like we're now going to have to learn how to do in real time are how do we do that without filtering it through our stereotypes of black women being angry? All right that people need to see that performance of black women as experts, whether they're good experts are always or infallible experts. But that there's a role for that to happen in public discourse. And we could all use that lesson. Well, professor Cottam you come back again and speak with us anytime Agnes seriously anytime, I feel like we were just getting started. We kind of work, and I would love to have you back. So please do come back. I'm going to take that as an invitation. Definitely it's a standing one trust. Trust. Mcmillan Cottam is a professor of sociology at Virginia Commonwealth university widely published in the land and slate and others and many of recipes now appear the debut collection thick. And other essays. We have an excerpt of it at on point radio dot org. Professor cottam. Thank you so much. Once again, thank you for having me, I'm gonna for bardy. This is on point.

Tracy McMillan Cottam Professor America NPR professor of sociology Tracy McMillan United States Virginia Commonwealth universi Richmond Virginia North Carolina Charlotte writer trustee Boston sociology Virginia Commonwealt Atlantic Jude Quicken Loans Richmond
How will the pandemic change jobs  and who will be left behind?

Katie Couric

00:00 sec | 7 months ago

How will the pandemic change jobs and who will be left behind?

"Are you a fan of pop culture up on game? Do you know the vibes. If not the ballers show podcast. Is He keeping you in the note with the latest? You'll favors celebrities kind. Event and providing free games so listeners. In Need Okay Thousand. Ethiopian Su Solo. Make sure you check us out on our brand new K. Ball alert show podcast available now on the radio on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you get Joe Packet. Here's something good is a new show from the Seneca Women podcast network and iheartradio each day. We aspire to bring you the good news the silver lining the glass half full because there is good happening everywhere every day. We just need to look for and share it. Here's something good is a short daily show that offers positive stories helpful suggestions and shared experiences to inform and inspire you every day. Listen to hear something. Good on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Wherever you listen to your favorite shows subscribe now hi. I'm Katie couric and welcome to next question today with widespread shelter in place order shutting down major cities and many states the US economy has come to an abrupt standstill in one week. In March jobless claims jumped by three million and after just five weeks. This cova crisis has forced more than twenty six million Americans to file for unemployment. Hi My name is Megan Bush. Sorry and this is My story I live in a suburb of Boston Massachusetts and I was furloughed for my job on March. Twenty Nine Hi. My name is Nicole Daniels from Chapel Hill North Carolina. I was informed at the beginning of April due to the economic downturn associated with Corona Bars. The field marketing team that. I'm a member of being eliminated. Hi My name is Mark Nelson and I am from Saint. Louis Missouri husband was laid off from his company after fifteen years has been difficult and neither one of us have ever lost our jobs before so this is all new road for us. Hi My name. Is Nancy Rasmussen? I lost my job and macy's I live in Delaware and right now that seems to be the least of my problems throughout today's episode. We'll be hearing from some of the people behind these unprecedented numbers but first let's get some context on what makes them so unprecedented. Most of the estimates for the unemployment rates in April will be around the lines of twenty percents right and at the peak of the Great Depression in one thousand. Nine hundred eighty. Three unemployment was twenty percents. A maybe a twenty five percent if you count all the people that were in work relief programs as unemployed at the height of the great recession we reached ten percents on employment. So we're at the very start of this crisis we're already seen numbers that are comparable to the Great Depression. Deter Tan Shan is Assistant Professor of Sociology at Virginia Commonwealth University He Studies Labor markets unemployment and social inequality. He's the author of the book cut loose jobless and hopeless in an unfair economy. He told me he's never seen anything like this. The other thing too is that the Great Depression Great Recession. Those were financial crises or at least started as financial crises. And we've had a lot of experience dealing with financial crises and we've developed strategies in terms of monetary and fiscal policy to deal with them. This is uncharted waters for us in terms of dealing with a pandemic where the economy has a shutdown in order for it to save itself later on right. This is a new kind of phenomenon and so we're trying to figure things out as we go policy wise which leads me to my next question. How will the corona virus pandemic change our economic futures? When we talk about unemployment unemployment policy. Timing is everything right and the speed by which this is happening is really concerning because we need to get support to these households right away because what we know from unemployment is at its spirals and spirals in terms of its psychological family and economic consequences. Detention says all this can put a tremendous strain on relationships and the longer this goes on the more dire financial consequences if we want to stop some of those negative outcomes From a current we need to introduce immediate relief and we end to its congress passed legislation really quickly to deal with that in the top up. Some of the benefits for unemployment on. Fortunately many states have been slow to provide that aid. And so we we see in many states huge backlog in in terms of benefits and the expansions that were supposed to help somebody's precariously employed workers like gig workers haven't even begun so I think timing is really essential in this to prevent the crisis from spiraling out of control. Some of the hardest hit sectors of the economy like leisure hospitality and the service industry tend to employ people without college degrees people of Color immigrants and those already living on less making this unemployment crisis particularly unfair the Federal Reserve said in two thousand seventeen that four in ten Americans did not have enough money saved up to cover four hundred dollar Expensive four hundred dollar emergency and so you have. A large population is already living paycheck to paycheck. And suddenly this happens. Devastating the sectors where there are concentrated in and that's leading to a lot of hardship that hopefully government policies can ameliorate to some extent. But it's unsure how long that support will last. They're also so many small businesses now. Small Business owners are in one category but the people who work for small businesses. They also been hard hit. Had they not yes and that is a major problem right now is that the small businesses remains street businesses restaurants bars and you know various establishments. They don't have the kind of reserves to weather the storm of this Economic Crisis. And so you're seeing them. Lay off their workers. You know rather than keeping them on now. There is some support you know that the government is provided to kind of keep that payroll going for a bit but access to that has been spotty so far and I imagine what we'll see is a lot of these businesses failing and a more consolidation in those sectors where Amazon Walmart or someone who has already really devastated You know mainstream America in terms of these small businesses taking more and more of the share of those markets. There's also the precarious workforce that you describe as people who are doing jobs that don't have much security or have part time jobs so they're not counted in the unemployment figures and they don't have benefits so tell us about this. Whole segment of the workforce that you term precarious. We're talking here about workers who don't have the kind of long-term full time employment that we associate it with Jobs Typical traditional jobs. Right where there's some kind of implicit contracts between employers and workers that you know that they'll stay there for a long time and and work years at a particular company that has disappeared and you have instead a lot of workers who are just working on gigs. Maybe they're classified as independent contractors. They do certain projects for an employer mandate basically have the conditions of being real employees in terms of how their work is dictated and managed but the employers don't have to pay them benefits. Don't have to have any long-term relationship with them can get rid of them whenever they want to. And so you have an increasing segment of the population about ten percents that according to some measures that's our fall into this category of either you know freelancers by choice or these independent contractors not involuntarily because companies have decided. They don't WanNa full-time a long term relationship with them. So we have a segment of the population has been growing in recent years and and Gig workers like Uber Drivers and insecure delivery people and so on are a segment of this. But that don't really have much in the way of protections or strength within their bargaining positions labor market and part of that too is the Klein of unions. That used to provide a voice for these workers and kind of negotiated. The full-time long-term employment contracts of the past that have disappeared. Now that unions have dwindled to a fraction of their former selves. President trump boasted about how strong the economy was prior to the crisis and I know unemployment was low but does that tell the whole story now because what we have seen in recent decades is a lot of folks have simply dropped out of the labor market dropped out of the labor force. They're no longer looking for work in recent weeks. Perhaps they've just given up on finding a decent job anymore and said they go on disability benefits or some of them have gone back to school. But that's a small percentage of the group that is Really what we're looking at of prime age workers who are suddenly out of the labor force and we actually saw before the Cova Crisis. We saw some of the lowest rates of labor force participation since the nineteen seventies right so we had this problem beforehand of large segments of the population including prime age. Men who had dropped out and by some measures of their rates participation in the economy were as low as they were at the tail. End The Great Depression right. So that's the kind of invisible crisis that we had because those individuals aren't counter for in our unemployment's because they they've dropped out of labor markets. They're not looking in the last four weeks for work. Which is how we define the unemployed. And so we've had this kind of hidden problem that was masked by the increases in The stock markets and the low unemployment rates and so on and it's also related to things like the opioid crisis. That has been going on as well. you know. There's just a lot of economic despair that is concentrated in working class communities. Many of them are white communities in in America's heartland that have seen a loss of those. Good pain often unionized jobs. That were the backbone of the American middle class for so long that have disappeared so we need to also recognize that these trends have been going on for quite some time even before the crisis when we come back how jobs will forever change after cove and who might be left behind. Hey I'm andy if you don't know me it's probably because I'm not famous but I did start a men's grooming company called Harry's the idea for Harry's came out of a frustrating experience I had buying razor blades. Most brands were overpriced over designed and out of touch. At Harry's our approach is simple. Here's our secret. We make sharp durable blades and sell them at honest prices for as low as two dollars. Each we care about quality so much that we do some crazy things like by a world class German blade factory obsessing over every detail means we're confident and offering one hundred percent quality guarantee. Millions of guys have already made the switch to Harry's so thank you if you're one of them and if you're not we hope you give us a try with this special offer get a Harry starter. Set with a five Blade Razor waited handle Shave Gel and travel cover off just three bucks plus free shipping just go to Harrys DOT COM and enter four four four four at checkout. That's Harrys Dot com code. Four four four four enjoy. My Name is Shapiro Wells. This is the story of my son Courtney. Nobody was quoted Coppola. Two Thousand Fifteen is the biggest year of my life. He was a ladies man even with. It and his grandmother. I'm chance the rapper courtney. Copeland was a good friend of mine in twenty sixteen. He wound up with a bullet in his back outside of Chicago police station at Hanover boy. Granted FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Just said he was shot in. It's the story of my search for the truth. This is somebody a CO production of the invisible institute the inner south and Topic Studios in association with Tender Foot. Tv available now. This is somebody's child. Somebody deserves to know what happened. I deserve to know what happened to my son. Listen to somebody on iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. No FINANCIAL CRISIS. No recession has hit the. Us This hard or this. Suddenly and the impact of the economic soon nami caused by the corona virus is likely to reverberate through the labor market long after Kobe. Nineteen leaves us if it ever does but Victor Tan Chen says it's not just a question of whether the economy will open up again but who and how many will be left behind when it does the. What is more troubling as that? There's GonNa be a large segment of people who don't get rehired right and they're going to. They tend to be older workers right. Who are costly for payrolls and so employers once they let go of workers are going to rehire cheaper workers. Right or they're going to impose certain technologies that reduce the non smokers. They need so you're going to have The economy is going to eventually return while you're going to have a segment of population who are cut loose and who probably won't be able to reconnect with the labor market later on and so that's the population. I'm particularly worried about because we saw in two thousand eight. The emergence of this long term unemployed population many who eventually left the labor force and our contributed to or larger jobless problem. But that's probably going to happen in this regard to even after the economy recovers so a lot of people may retire earlier than they anticipated and also it seems to me that employers are going to have to space out employees. They may not have room to have employees. There will be more people working from home. How do you see that figuring into the workforce of the future of the immediate future? Well first of all. It's important to recognize his. How unequal Internet accesses in our country A Federal Communication Commission? Report from two thousand. Seventeen says that thirty percent of American households don't have access to even slow broadband connection right. So that's a large segment of population. That is looking On their phones to access the internet or Jesus have sub-standard access to it so that presents problems and so much of a job seeking is online now and I think that's going to create issues for workers especially given that day it will be harder for them. Perhaps to you know. Hit the pavement to find jobs. It's also important just to note that It for those who are able to telework There's huge class and racial divides in that Regard as well you know. Half one estimate says that about half of those workers who have college degrees are able to telework compared to about fifteen percents of those without college degrees right. So there's big differences. There is big racial differences in terms of African Americans and Latinos. Being less able to do that so so if we move to jobs increasingly that requires social. Distancing require teleworking certain segments who tend to have less educated who tend to have lower incomes are going to be left out of that New Economy. That's emerging out of these new needs and I just WANNA underscore. That unemployment is not a negligible trivial matter. It leaves scars for people most psychological and economic right It's comparable to other crises. Like the death of a loved one or divorce in terms of the real impact and permanent impacted has on people's well-being now when everyone is unemployed of those kind of that. Kind of impact is lessened right. Because you know people understand that they're all in this together but it's still has these pretty profound consequences for individuals and families and we should be worried about that because it's going to be part of her Reality for quite some time this this spike in unemployment it can have devastating effects on a ripple effect on people's mental health. But it also seems to me that it's the kind of thing that foments a revolution of sorts. Yeah we stand at a kind of important moments in our politics. Which direction do we take some of the fear and anxiety that everyone is feeling right now? Do we channel it in a certain political direction? How were we going to respond to this? Are we going to respond collectively as a nation recognizing the fault lines that this this crisis has suddenly made visible to us within our labor market? Or are we going to respond as we did an past crises in two thousand and eight is a good reminder of this? Where yes there was aid in beginning their support. There was some sense that we're all in together at first and then some of the narrative change right. It was about how people were being profligate and irresponsible and that was driving some of the joblessness. We were seen that led to the rise of tea party right. The sense to that government was bailing. Out they'll call losers people that had overextended themselves at the expense of ordinary Americans. So you could see the possibility of a divisive narrative emerging and then. That's GonNa stop some of the necessary steps in terms of providing that base of unemployment benefits and other sorts of support that are essential to keep those not only keep those households solvent but also the inject some more spending and our economy while things are stalled so that you know employers don't collapse Because of the lack of consumer demand right so all those things are necessary and unless we have the political will to push for these policies and extend them as long as they're needed We're going to pay some long term consequences for hi my name is Kathleen and I've worked in the dental hygienists in California for almost forty years. I'm almost sixty five to underlying health conditions. And I don't know when it's going to be safe for me to go back to work. I can't really look too far in the future. Otherwise it It's really stressful thinking. You know what what's going to happen where we are dual. Income family need to need to stay that way. I can look at my retirement funds. I know that it'll show that I won't be able to retire when I wanted to. In three years My retirement could be forced now but I don't think my funds will last a long time just for the future. Don't have money when we come back how we can help each other in these desperate times the world the world is yours. The podcast new podcast with a fresh perspective on Pot Coach. Hannemann in the NFL. You're not just GONNA tear the NFL down in one city invest. Let's talk about this. They're all eighty every owner is seventy on the way out. Comic Criminal Social Media Thought Okay. I usually occurs like a little cordy or whatever it is they think right so now say anything messy those Oshii. Do the miliarakis right. Oh she didn't explain city and how girl summer right. Oh she like down like it's Yalo y'all are alive. My medicine and I started the light someone else. I know it's not right but I really can't fake when I'm feeling what should I do? A world specialist burn. Baby Rory Simmons make sure you check out on our brand new podcast art show podcast available now on the iheartradio APP on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast. You're looking for a new podcast. Who isn't these days? Well if you want real stories about love commitment marriage and hope stories that will help you through. The strangest of times look no further than season. Four of the committed podcast. It's a storytelling adventure about what really happens. After I do hosted by me Jo Piazza while we're all still stuck in the house. There are three whole seasons of committed for you to bench three available on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you like to listen to your podcasts. Hi My name is Mandy Soccer And I'm from Westfield. New Jersey Been Their Program Director for a nonprofit Greece before summer for almost eight years when cloven nineteen appeared. We quickly realize that we were going to have to hit it the way that we provide grief support to our over four hundred participants. It only took a matter of days. Together I call people who had a scheme family member who had died from the. I mean we're looking for a whole different level of support because the typical rituals and supports that people receive after Jack for not available to them. There were no in person week if those funerals Aaron on family and friends coming over to sit with them cook meals cry together. It was very overwhelming for us as care providers. I honestly wasn't sure how much vicarious trauma I would be able to tolerate but then I was furloughed and as much as the need was there. The money was not Besides the obvious things that I feel about potentially losing my job permanently. I feel the most bad about not being able to support the families I've worked with for so long and as more people die. Do this illness a long. Be Able to support them as well. I feel like I have something to offer during his hand but I'm not allowed to be a loss before I wrapped up with Victor Tan Shan. I asked what good if any might come from this experience. He said the most heartening lesson is perhaps that we found strength and solidarity that we can do better with a greater sense of community. We can respond to this with a sense of compassion and Grace Ray. We could respond to this with the understanding. That life is not a competition that the threat to own mortality can crystallize us. What really matters in their lives. And how important things that we take for granted like going about our day-to-day lives are to us. So we could use this as a moment of reflection. I think that's a lot of Americans are doing that right now. They're writing their isolation journals and they're thinking about big picture things and using this moment to reconnect with people around them. They're realizing that. Kind of competition of status and wealth that we are so engaged in is somewhat paltry and Patty in the in the grand scheme of things we could use this as a source of motivation. Inspiration to be a better country and it really depends on leadership and it depends on People stand up and making sure that their leaders do the right thing in that regard. That was Victor Tan Chan who teaches sociology Virginia Commonwealth University and is the author of cut loose jobless and hopeless an unfair economy. I'd like to acknowledge all the people who have written in and called in with their stories in this podcast. You heard the voices of Meghan. Kesari Nicole Daniels. Barb Nelson Nancy Rasmussen Kathleen Lang Mandy sucker and Amy Stewart. Hi My name is Amy Stewart. I really don't know what is going to come next. One thing is for sure. I'm definitely a crossroads. Well it is hard and I am a certain I know. Somehow we'll figure this out to. I grew up hearing stories from grandparents about it was like them to live through the depression. I think of them. I think my parents I think of my friends and I think of my husband and I and all of the things that we managed to get through before this one day this too will be in my rear view mirror and I will sit around and tell our story to our grandkids in the past tense. There were so many more that we heard from who are struggling uncertain about their future or trying to stay positive. Despite everything and I just wanted to say I am so sorry for what you all are going through and so appreciate your sharing your experiences with us. Please continue to write in call in reach out on social media. We may all be isolating right now. But we're definitely not alone and that does it for this week's episode of next question for the most up to date information on the corona virus. Please visit the CDC and World Health Organization websites. You can also subscribe to my morning newsletter. Wakeup call where we'll be profiling. Those affected by the pandemic. You'll also be able to see some of those profiles on my social media accounts instagram facebook. And all the rest until next time and my next question. I'm Katie couric. Thanks so much for listening. Stay safe and try to stay. Positive next. Question with Katie couric is production of iheartradio. Katie couric media the executive producers are Katie couric Courtney. Let's Tyler Clang. The supervising producer is Lauren Hanson. Our show producer is Beth macaluso. The associate producers are Emily Pinto and Derek clements editing by Derek Clements Dylan Fagin and Lower Berlanti Mixing Dylan Fagin R. Researcher is Gabriel Loser. For more information on today's episode go to Katie COURIC DOT COM and follow us on twitter and Instagram at Katie couric for more podcast from iheartradio. Visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows Jarvis. Masterson steadfastly maintained his innocence since he was sentenced to death almost thirty years ago. Innocent PEOPLE ON DEATH. Row uncovered evidence bolsters. Those claims of innocence. I ruin found that weapon. I would have been charged. You be the judge ungeared governor. The podcast go days. Feels like Aniston on death row. Listen dear governor on May seventh on the iheartradio APP on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. We're all living in the ripple effects of history the butterfly flaps its wings in China in the nineteenth century. And you're uber. Driver misses the turn for the airport or an eccentric genius invents air conditioning and changes the course of American politics. I'm Sean Braswell host of the threat and I'm back with a brand new podcast presented by ozzy called flashback. A series of stories have unintended consequences on May sixth. Listen to flashback on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Apple Katie couric iheartradio Cova Crisis Harry Nicole Daniels Courtney America Virginia Commonwealth Universi Barb Nelson Nancy Rasmussen Ka Boston US Massachusetts Joe Packet
Episode 173: Adoptees and Addiction

AA Beyond Belief

00:00 sec | 5 months ago

Episode 173: Adoptees and Addiction

"A beyond belief is a podcast by for and about people who have found a secular path to sobriety and alcoholics anonymous. Well according to the site adoption network DOT COM one hundred and thirty five thousand children in the United. States are adopted each year and another four hundred twenty eight thousand children are in foster care. Among these children, males or females, African American children are disproportionately represented and over half or six years old or older. There are one point five million adopted children in the United States. And according to a study at the Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond in two thousand twelve. About four point, five percent of adopted individuals have or have had problems with substance substance abuse compared to two point nine percent for the general population. The city also said that adopt children have twice the risk of drug abuse, if either their biological full or half sibling had a drug abuse problem, or if they're adopted, siblings had drug abuse problems. So why individuals have a why do adopted individuals have disproportionate disposition for substance abuse? So we have two guests. Today will help us answer that question Lisa Kay is a Korean adoptee in a person in recovery. Her expertise on the topic comes from her personal experience. Lisa has freely and openly shared her story, and it's really nice to have her here. And David People, the author of parallel Universes, the story of Rebirth David is a certified master, addiction counselor and a member of the National Association of Hall and drug. Abuse Counselors the American adoption. Congress and concerned United Birth parents as a person who's been adopted or has he would say relinquished. He understands adoption trauma firsthand, and as a professional addiction counselor and personal recovery with an interest in adoption issues. He's the perfect guest to help us explore and learn about this topic. Hello. Lisa and David welcome to a beyond belief. John Hi Angela glad to be here. Nice to have you. Good to have you Lisa. And Angela I think you're gonNA. Find this an interesting topic because it does have a lot to do with trauma and I look interesting. Trauma Junkie, and then I'm like. Oh, no junkies, not the right word I'm like trump enthusiast now that. Anyway I need more words, but yes, I'm I'm excited about this show and I'm glad I'm glad that you had an opportunity arrived Davidson book parallel universes. That was just a beautiful book. it it. You learn a lot about the issues surrounding adopt adopted people, and you learn a lot about David and you learn a lot about recovery. In general, it's a book. I highly recommend very well written. So. We're to start. I thought what we might want to do since we have two guest here. Why don't we start with Lisa? If Lisa you can share your story about I? Don't know five ten minutes whatever and then We'll just take it from there and Why don't you have the floor so it's yours. Okay, thank you. Hi My name's Lisa and I was adopted in the sixties. Crane adopts king. And in those days it wasn't so common and I was adopted into a white family, so a lot of my story is around identity and racing shoes because a small child. You know when I first came day. I heard people say about being uncomfortable in their skin and I truly was uncomfortable in my skin. My whole life you know because even though I was raised this culture when I go out in the world, I'm still an Asian person. That's you. People see. So I grew up with a lot of feelings of self hatred. I didn't WANNA be Asian. I wanted to be white like my siblings. also talk about racial isolation so I also did not socialize with other Asian people because I didn't have. Anything in common so what? I heard in the rooms when I was new as about that. Just, wandering to belong. In for me I just kind of stuck out. I was always awkward and they're very shy and. Colonel so I wanted to touch on me. I had I still to this day on fifty six, and now no idea of really when I was born, or where I was born are many of our birth certificates back in sixteen thousand. Maybe even seventies and eighties are fabricated, so we don't even have access George Chew where became Brahmin I. think that most people mass just a fundamental thing that we know about yourself, you know. Where you were more than S- So. There was something that that played me for many years fortunately, I've been able to get in. Touch with other adopt cranny dots deans sameness would saw finally. or feeling of like? From hearing your story and saying I felt that way, too. Because it's something that we can't even describe to our STU are white families work? That's life to all. Non is the heard. Found that's so important? Then I guess also I think someone on trauma or losing our birth family are birth mothers and our culture, even if it's not in our memory, it's something that we still carries with us no the Qissa cellular levels. When I was back to Korea when I was forty five years old I say that I felt like my body was told. I couldn't even describe it was just it was just a wonderful four. So. Getting Sauber about coming up. On ten years file, it was the first time lowers able to look at all the ones that I behaved in my abandonment issues, and the reason I I wasn't able to form they'll meaningful relationships also are should add my adopted mother, and I grew up in a lot of chaos in poverty, so those other stressors that added to the whole racial peace, and I didn't have words to express my frustrations. I say even though I didn't start drinking heavily until I was in my thirties. in my twenties I certainly did binge during solar drank alcoholic lace scape needs to. Know how to cope with those feelings of? Fear and the boys and to this day you know I, say I still have to tell myself the self talk that I need to have boundaries I need to not let people push you around to not be bullied. Because you fall into those patterns in their hard to rank, even though intellectually was happening Just, being able to. Stand up to the myself. When somebody says something to say, no, that's not we don't know me on. My Mother did that a lot and. then. I've had relationships in the last few years. Well noted find myself. Choosing these people who were just domineering. And I. That's just not. That's not me when. My Jill you'll know. Does ice? Quarantine I feel very happy just to be with myself. I like you know I. I go to zoom meetings is involved in some volunteer projects and I. Still My days and I like the fact that it's. Just some choir. Reflection won't take in a Spanish class, and I just signed things to do feel. I feel happy as a clam is I'm happy I'm happy. I don't have any other people. With you know as far as Children. The after partner. Just music I fast. It's what I do now still that long ago. Was it that you took that trip to Korea? On the first time was in two thousand eight, and then I went again the following year, another adopted Chirp, and then my last trip was twenty sixteen. In. Knowing me. There's something kind of like when you first time to the loons sneer hearing your story and you hear people who felt the way that you did. When I went denier discovered the adopting was like another layer. wiles somebody you always. Can understand what that's lights. So, you really drawn to reach out to them. Yeah food, and that's one of my volunteer projects. Now we have. We're starting up. Sort of the advocacy group songs there. There is a lot of very high density of suicide. Among all adopt Geeze, there's actually over two hundred thousand robots worldwide from bowl. You know post Korean War she'll the present within the adoptions of tapered. All sts are mean we could be owns. Major city every so many of us. But as how Smith Social Media, we will be able to connect over the last ten years, and our voices will be heard for once. You know with all those. Stuff in the news about race. It's like I've been saying this. My whole life you see we don't live on a colorblind society. World's scare. Thank, you will thank you. Lisa and David I'm sure that you find a lot and lease story that sounds familiar while and I. Give you the floor and. Or a thanks Jim. Yeah. I absolutely do one thing that you said that struck me immediately right between the eyes is that? You talked about those thinking patterns and behavior. Patterns in are hard to break. Even though we intellectually know what's healthy, and what's not healthy, right where we know what works and what doesn't work. It's tough to do that met because because of any number of reasons for me. It's because I made fifty nine and I've been doing things for a really long time in my life, but it's also because I'm in adopt the everything have the as a result. We have these coping survival mechanisms that are so deeply ingrained in everything that we do in every way we look at the world. It's really difficult to extract the Samantha. Feel safe and expand beyond that I think you articulated that extremely well. You Bet my story is really similar and I think my as my story is evolved over time I. Think I would say that as well. My intellectual understanding has grown immensely what my story is for the first forty some years of my life why better stop and just introduce myself again? I'm, David. I'm both the relinquish e that is I was relinquished by my birth mother, and adopted the I was adopted into another family and I'm a person. Long term recovery from both alcoholism in nicotine use disorders in addition to that I am also in a profession of being an independent addiction consultant, the Clinical Substance Abuse Counselor and recovery. Management coach and I work with a lot of people with substance, use disorders and their families for trying to. Make changes and Matt coincidentally a lot of relinquish cheese adopt these those who have orphan those have been fostered have been attracted into my practice, and they've worked with a lot of people who struggle with some of the same things you're talking about, but again for the first forty some years of my life. My story was really simple. I was adopted as an infant. I was the first child in the family. My family later had a natural born daughter, another adopted son from a different family other than mine. I had very little information about my adoptive parents. Because I was adopted in the baby scoop era where that's just the way it was, adoptions were closed. People were told. Forget about your fast. Your new life starts now and move forward, and that's the way I was treated, but I was welcomed, and I was loved and I was a talk of their family and friends as I was adopted their family and I don't recall a time when I when I didn't know that I was adopted. I even probably told some friends about it and. That's just the way it was. It was part of my life, but even at a really young age I remember feeling different from others. And at the time I, it was more described that I was being timid and shy, but I think more accurately. I just never felt I fit in anywhere, and I had no idea what to do in life number. I felt that other people knew exactly what to do. And that was something that was talked about a lot when I came into recovery, and of course is a characteristic very similar to adopt us as well so the there's huck right but I never attributed that to anyone including adoption, and that was that I started drinking age thirteen and experimented with other drugs as people. My Age and generation were want to do. I didn't think I was doing anything out of the ordinary. And in some ways in life, I did okay. I I had friends. I had social circles I. While respected I built a career I got married at age twenty four biological children. But shortly after they were born, my wife said you know that's fine that you don't want to know anything about your adoption, but perhaps It would be fair to the children if we got some medical history, so they might know what they were up against, and I couldn't argue with that. Sadly, even though I have tried that truth, take about my adoption for most of my life by by that time. Wisconsin's a close state, so he's petitioned for some closed records and. Didn't have a lot of success. I got some family medical history and learned that my grandma died of heart disease. My grandfather had Alzheimer's but nothing that I could show that I was genetically predisposed anything, and at that time I had a grand mal seizure and doctors were pushing me to try to get this information and sell. NOPE, nothing they're. Nothing, to see here I reached a dead end, and there's nothing to pursue, but. That doesn't end the story I opened up a whole can of worms at that time so after my nine months after my initial contact with the State of Wisconsin on. They said that they had tried to make contact with my birth mother, but they had learned that she had passed away as a result of alcoholism. And that was really interesting to me and. The timing was remarkable in that. I was having. A tough time in my life, my call use was increasing dramatically. Negative consequences were accumulating. Jack Daniels now. Part of my everyday life. And it was affecting my relationships in my ability to function and any clinical way you can imagine. And it took nine months for me getting that information and thinking about that and thinking about my birth mother, who had no information about other than the fact that she had passed away and it led me to. Get Sober. Thanks Leah I got sober with lot of help. I went into a hospital detoxification program. I went to residential treatment program. I was introduced to the twelve steps and I. Immersed myself in a twelve step recovery and fellowship that stabilized my life in a major way, and thankfully for that because it allowed me to do the work that I really needed to do it, and that's what we're talking about. Tonight and that's the relinquish. And the adoption part. Had To do it right? I had to do it so so just imagine here I, mean a I do my fourth step after a period of time. That was great eighteen months later I decided, or you didn't really address the. Adoption thing David. Let's do a four step on adoption and I did. My sponsor was really good, but he was not an expert. He was not an expert i. just got it off my chest, and what I realized instead of feeling, great and feeling attached and welcomed and all that. I realized what what an immense amount of work I needed to do around that including attachment issues, I might have had trust. Issues might have had identity issues that were lacking because I didn't have a lot of information. So so that's what I did, but some interesting that your your family they loved you and they were glad that you were in the house, and you had you had a nice stable home, but it was more the. That didn't really compensate for the FI. The feeling of being relinquished by your birth mother exactly exactly, and who would know it right unless unless I learned that somehow you know it's something that happened pre verbally right proverbially as I was just a newborn. I had no way of remembering that incident. So I I couldn't attach any meaning to what and I certainly. Couldn't describe it even if I could, and even the feelings of not fitting in or Malays expensive throughout my life. I never pointed the finger at adoption I just thought that was me and I thought it was defective. Something's wrong with me. I was I was given up for adoption, so sets up again to be wrong with me, so that was that was my assumption, as I was going through these these developmental periods of my life and As I said I suffered from relational issues like attachment at. I do who to trust including myself. And it was all about shame, and all about shame and abandonment betrayal in shame, those that Trifecta of emotions that are common to people in recovery, and those who have been relinquished. One of the things that that I thought of when I was reading your story. was that I heard some stories from people where they talk about You know they're. They're sharing their alcoholic story. And then their families were normal. Their families refine their parents didn't abuse them. They were great. They were supportive and yet they became alcoholic anyway. And so yeah, and so reading your book in the beginning you know the the intro talks about trauma as you know being you know that like. If, I can get the words out. like as soon as there's an environment. where a part of it and so any sort of mother, who would you know either not be planning to be a mother or the stress around that The hormones do affect you know the placenta, and so therefore yeah, you can have a perfectly normal family life, and yet still have these feelings of of unworthiness, or just stress, extra stress, absolutely and and so that was really helpful to me to to see it in here in that way, and and I'll share with other listeners that right before we started I admitted that I hadn't I I. I read his book. I finished it today, but it wasn't at the top of my list when I met him two years ago at the Toronto. Conference because I'm not an adoptee and so well. You Know I. Do like memoirs you know as other people have shared It just wasn't at the top of the list so I'm glad that we did this show. Because you know as I read the book, there is so much that I could relate to and understand better about both trauma and adoption and and the shame. That can you know? A lot of us have that we you know in. It's not even that we're blaming our parents. It just seems to be part of our physicality. The body keeps score as they say and so I really liked how that was talked about in your book, and and it made me feel. Much more open to reading the rest of your book, and and I enjoyed it a lot, so I thought, I'd put that out there. In case, there are people that don't relate to. Adopt Dis, that that yeah. It was helpful to me and really opened me up to looking at some things in a different way. I appreciate that and that certainly i. I think it was a couple podcasts to go. You talk to great length about adverse childhood experiences, and this is the link that we can share whether an adopter you're not. This is some language that those of US recovery oftentimes have in common right so as I'm telling my story. And I suggested earlier that I happened upon alcoholic age thirteen. While I I believe it was more than that. I I believe. Alcohol time in my life where I was totally lost where I didn't fit in right I had. Going on, and who knows right, the reason identifies being relinquishing adopted has to fall, because it describes two different events, being relinquished could be a real separation from mother, and could cause real clinical trauma, not attaching to the family one is adopted by even though it safe, and they're loving and everything else. Not Feeling like you belong. It's a different type of crime. It's a complex developmental trauma and I believe that I was suffering immense developmental interruption. Right I wasn't developing more because I was in constant fear. 'CAUSE I didn't feel like I was connected anywhere and when I followed alcohol at thirteen. Wow, that was the that was what we term sometimes is the MED Magic Elixir I. Some some people say when I first started drinking or using drugs, it made them more socially aware and it was. Able, to get along, and that was partly with me, but I thought I hatched these people in meaningful ways that no other humans whatever patch and that's that's how I know in retrospect that I would likely drinking alcohol h feet off all altered, my perception of reality and it was no. This was a learned behavior that was working for an illness or I couldn't even describe until thirty years later David I. Don't know if you can. I don't know if you can see the comments in in the chat room, but Johnny wrote that your book was unbelievably helpful to him as a child of alcoholic parents, and he can't believe how useful your story was, and he thinks you for it. Johnny that trying to appreciate that commentary I will tell you said of the people who do reach out after reading books, a good portion of them are. Parents and families of people struggle with alcoholism or Adopted parents because they've they've attached to the fact that is provided with to them a better understanding the context watched of some negative events going on. Lisa. I was wondering about with your experience. Some with your your group. You know what I heard and you're sharing with that. Is that you? You Find Link Belt scene? which is you know how a lot of us feel when we get to the rooms and people are sharing similar stories. do in your group Do you guys talk about addiction or things? You mentioned you know the suicide rate. Is it something a bit that you have groups that you talk about it with or do you keep that separate your addiction recovery and your adoption community. Well that's funny, you ask that I participated in kind of organization meeting the other day, and I kind of outed myself and I don't typically do that, but I just said these are issues that that parallel recovery you know about having a voice and Scott self hatred, and just wanting to belong, and that also we are all at different points in our own sobriety, as well are adoption journey some of us, you know. Don't have any interest at all. In finding birth families are. There's tried very hard, but I. Think as I get older. I think more. About my birth mobile the stress that she must have gone through knowing that she had to relinquish being in that. I don't know if she's still alive or not, but I feel I don't know. I never had any animosity toward her, but as David Touchstone. We, probably both had that feeling of being relinquished. Unwanted but. Fortunately as a result of being involved in the adoption groups, I don't have that's the only many more I feel like I'm sure, but I was very much wanted. It was the circumstances social Construct that in Asian culture in were poverty, and there are so many factors, and also that she didn't have any agency in the northern, did the orphan babies wasn't choice to come here then the narrative that were told as were supposed to be grateful sins, Yasuo, grateful, but What they don't see as the loss in long sadness, one thing I was interested in There was a conversation on facebook about. The biologic, if this is like biological that adoptees have such high incidence of addiction, you know. Maybe it's because their birth parents had addiction issues, which is why they had to relinquish their children. Do you think there's anything to that day? You know there can be right I mean if we look at all the elements that we know that might contribute to addiction at this point in time that being genetics, and that being environment right environment can be the the the environment which grew up in the psychological. Aspects of it the toxic stress any number of things one might have been experienced or experiencing I think there is something. A badge in my birth mother who who the man that. Helped her create me denied that he was the father, and her being sent off to a home for unwed mothers all by herself for the last five months of pregnancy. Imagine how the stress she was under. So so you talk about an unborn fetus inside of a woman in the stresses that they might be feeling. It may begin then absolutely that allergy continuous I think there's a lot of research being done and new theories being supported that suggests that this trauma could be generational, and it is cellular in that it is biologically embedded in some capacity and the cells and passed along from generation to generation, absolutely true. That's interesting. Joe has written in here. He says be careful what you wish for. The family of origin may have its own hell when you find them. He says his aunt routed his mom out in a drunken party. The cops were called to and the cops call child services so yeah. What was your experience? Dave when you when you found your biological mother. Well, it was interesting as I mentioned earlier I learned that my mother had died of alcoholism, and I had no idea what that meant right. It doesn't say alcoholism on the death certificate most happened. When I was able to do thankfully, as I was able to meet some step, several siblings who helped fill in some of that information. Sadly, my mother died. In a shelter on the south side of Chicago. A respiratory distress as a result of alcoholism, and she had struggled with it for decades, and who knows, she may have even been struggling you with it when I was born. I'm not really sure she did not. probably did not come home from milk, come from an alcoholic family but I'm have some stress in college. whereby she even went and saw some conflict professionals, because she felt like she was under so much stress. Then you add an unwanted pregnancy to it or on capable agency to it, and she was under massive tax. Express at that time. I learned also that. Biological Father who was not? Identified paternity without Lee established, but I found out who he was. Also likely struggle with alcoholism and what I can tell you is that I have some step siblings who have been known to have that problem as well so it's an issue that oftentimes runs in families in many different ways and no exception to that real. Another comment from facebook. Member of our facebook group. He says he was adopted back in the sixties in the United Kingdom, and even though he had a very loving adopted family, the feeling of rejection was always there, even though I was still loved by his parents. When I got to the age of twenty, he began searching for his birth family from the age of seventeen, he began drinking and drugging, which was in retrospect away of trying to avoid those feelings of rejection, and also he's come to realize a way to deal with imposter. Syndrome never felt comfortable. You know that feeling and I don't. I can't speak for all adoptees but I do. Hang out in those communities and very much like lease I found support in dumpy communities in not only getting from them, but getting back to them, and this is this is a common theme that discomfort that that uncomfortable in our own skin, no matter what intellectually might be going on in our lives. I think that that's a common thread. One that we typically need to work through our lives and you know John. You talked about their statistics earlier about adopt, but there's so much more not not only. Are Those statistics true about addiction? But adoptees are also more likely to have difficulty with eating disorders, attention, deficit, disorder, and suicide, untimely pregnancies, and we have higher rates of higher personality, disorders, antisocial personality, borderline personality, but mainly. Sympathy here, it's something we need to address. And certainly, if someone's trying to work a program to recover, they need to be aware of this sooner. Rather than later we have issues of loss and grief and identity, development, self, esteem and lack of information about family history that may never be resolvable, which which contributed to that feeling of discomfort. Where what am I ever going to be hall? What am? Am, I, going see like I've done enough and that hyper vigilance is a common thread throughout adopt. He's especially those attempting to recover. Yeah, I really liked how you talked about that in the book. I mean you you did. If there is a way to do program you a perfectly, you know you were. You're going for it. You know Jillian meetings and all the inventory and all the books and All of this stuff and yet this was still something that that needed to be addressed and I thought that was important, because I know just in my experience that in early recovery that when I was going through the steps and doing all the stuff, if I continued to feel not that great, or you know upset about something I thought I was doing it wrong, and there must be something you know extra wrong with me or I missed a step, or whatever and so I liked the you know by sharing your story. The GET SOBER and be you know sober, and yet the journey continues, and I think that's an important message to hear because you know regardless of whether you were adopted or not I. Think all most of us. Maybe there are some that are really more more well than others. Being open to seeking additional help. Even after you've been sober for a while is is is important. for the continue journey absolutely very well said. Were taught in clinical settings, and we're taught in medical settings and were caught in recovery settings that addiction recovery forever forever. It's something once. Someone has crossed that line into a severe substance use disorder. They're likely going to have to deal with all their lives. Relinquishment is very much the same way that never goes away. So there are life events that can be triggering or add pressure am toxic stress to people's lives, and you're correct. We should be ready to be able to deal with things in ourselves in the best way possible with the tools necessary to do that work, and you know Lisa something. That was interesting in your. Your story is the whole I. The whole problem about identification and feeling that you don't belong is that you also had that racial component where you were Korean adoptee by white family. You live in a white community and I think that you related that you know it. It was a while before you re relies the that the that you've felt that feeling of not belonging. Am I correct with that. Yes, I was even sharing in one of my zoom meetings else. I don't see many new. Like me. Eight a lot of Asians getting so. They. Don't do it with and. So. Yeah, we have another comment from facebook. He says. Thank you for this extremely, thank you. This is extremely useful for me again. Connection for me has been the main help for my. So to hear people as yourself, sharing on the subject as to that connection into no I'm not alone. Thank you and thank you for making the comment because I. I hope that these these. podcast episodes are useful and helpful to people. I love these kind of like A. It's like an AA meeting and a party conversation. It's just A. It's just a really good thing to do on a Friday night thing. But if you if it helps you, that's even better so. Thank you so much for that comment now if you'd like to call in our phones are open, and the number is eight, four, four, eight, nine, eight, two, seven, eight, they go. So Angela. What was it about Dave's book that you found most compelling? That, that was interesting, interesting two year. Well like I said I I. Really I. Really liked the science in the intro because it was just fried his experience in the adopt experience in terms that that I'm now familiar with again when I first met him I I hadn't read that much. I wasn't doing my own trauma therapy and stuff and Um and so you know a couple of years later reading that I can understand better and I felt more connection to you know what the story was about to be. I could relate to that experience better. and I I liked where you know. He talked about The value of drunk log then often. Where you know in meetings or like it has to be Solution A. Solution and Blah Blah Blah, but I think it's our stories I mean the stories. Where would what got me to stay? was hearing about people who felt as terrible as I did or had similar experiences, and then we're able to come them I. mean that's main the main reason I stick around. It definitely wasn't the gods stuff. I forgot about that. You're so right, you know. I often hear that people decry drunk and everything, but I love the stories I love Speaker meetings and I love memoirs. Learn so much from from the stories. Yeah, the speaker meetings. Also you know this. The stories the drugs. You can hear what somebody was like. You know in the beginning. You know what they? They did and what they're like now, ideally but you know in a lot of the meetings you just hear how somebody is dealing with things for five minute increments and and I couldn't always relate to that because you know they'd share that they let go and let God, and and you know they shift either and and I. I'm not at that point. And so so hearing like how they went through, and it worked out so I. I liked when he talked about the drunk log. and the addiction. Memoirs when you shared about that Because of you know how in addiction, memories, the idea of. People trying when they get to the point where they'll try anything at all and I think that's something that I can relate to. As well as you know. Because again I was atheist and still am. and. In so doing that going to meetings and having to hear that stuff and from day one I said you know I'm atheist I don't know if I can do this and yet. It was only only thing in town, and so I I had to, and so it was you know getting to that thing. The other thing I liked is He dubbed the word coins. which you know makes me giggle. You know very creative. For, community of individuals, needing support, so it relates to know twelve step meetings of all different kinds and a lot of us get coins there, and so you know I I love word play as well so any the. MEA- and if you want to talk a little bit about some of the unhelpful sayings, and we talked about some of few podcast, go, but. You listed that I agree with is like The safety ones and the bossie ones. And the ad the. Feelings aren't fat. You know because in in my family, you know certain people were allowed to feel and certain people were not and certain feelings were allowed in certain ones were not, and you know, and it depended on who you were, which thanks you got to feel land such, and and so being able to feel, and then recognizing my feelings is is a big deal for me, and so you know how it's talked about in the room. Sometimes, it's not helpful, so that was another thing that I. I enjoy that you addressed in that. Book David I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the organizations you belong to the Oh the concern united birth parents, and the American adoption Congress in any other adoption organization that you are participating all kinds of great resources out there, certainly the American adoption Congress. Typically in an uncle, Videira holds an annual convention that brings together. Number of resources to bear upon people. Who are adopted in particular, but also resources for other people in the Constellation that adoption consulation includes. Birth parents relinquishing family members adoptive parents. And they. Have a clearinghouse of a great deal of research that's available concern united birth parents more bringing the different parties together, engaging understanding of how each person's perspective informs. Their lives and their interactions going forward. There's a group in Indiana. Call the Indiana adopting network that I have been very active in. Even though I met in Indiana their work crosses state borderlines and their. They missed their conference in April, but they're doing a weekly happy hour. If you will on Friday evenings brings up the resources and I helped them to do that tonight. They had nancy vary. Who is offering therapist on against two very important enough d books was. The primal wound, describing that wound that happens when the child is relinquished from its birth mother. was coming home to south, which is a book about identity development in the adult enough the and how how does one develop an identity and continue their personal development when they don't have biological mirroring, another family members, from which reflecting back to them so I'm very involved in those organization of course I also operate. In the addiction realm and spend a lot of time doing that as well, but I also am a recovery manager and help people in their recovery, including families and I. I use services myself so. I'm very familiar with all different types of recovery, and it's very important for me to stay abreast of that not away for my own wellbeing, but for for those of my clients and I think it was so important at the facebook, comment or connection Angela made the comment about a drunk a log ultimately to me, those are just really. Fundamental forms of narrative therapy. Better able, we are to tell a story about ourselves. The more mentally quote unquote well-adjusted we are, the better were were able to deal with things in our lives, and to become more resilient, so telling our story so long as it's not as long as my story today is that the dental story that I told fifteen years ago when I got sober. Ball, because I've done some work God. What's going on in this world on myself that it's really healthy to do that right and as as as we know in the a belief universe. Verse sometimes these these communities of individuals needing support. Can Be. Really tough to navigate. Those that mutual aid group that uses these twelve steps sometimes it's really difficult between their texts and their culture don difficult for people who? Struggle with the religious language, but they could be particularly difficult for adoptees who are always trying to seek safety. They need a safe place to do the work that so essential, so as part of those twelve step program sometimes adopted struggle over the text, and they struggle over the culture is this notion of powerlessness and sexist adoptuskids? People who have tried all right if you if trauma could render people powerlessness, their powers list, and they have to turn to something outside of themselves as Really difficult when trauma survivors are thought, you can marshal a personal power within your cells to deflect these things. It's a country message including that a manageability that you now that says that you manage your life, even though as an adopted I we've existential, survive a lot of things by doing that over over the years and I think the other thing that adopting triple returns of the Texas that. Focus on the wrong side, right weather's defects of character that that apply that. We're defective away, and of course you heard me and you heard. Lisa's testimony that we didn't feel quite right, or we did feel comfortable, and we didn't feel like we belong. It's oftentimes dangerous for trauma people to reflect on the past without some new healthy coping mechanisms right so telling drunk law gay without knowing where to go with that flood of emotions can oftentimes be contraindicated, but it's a shame that comes from the negative focus of focusing on the wrongs and particularly and John. You've heard me talk about this 'cause. I can't talk about this enough. That darn spiritual axiom that says if there's something. That I'm bothered about something wrong with me. Right and our mind tell someone thinks something wrong with them that there's something wrong with them. The most negative narrative you could ever confirm about somebody right instead of that positive safe validating environment that we all need to do the recovery work whatever recovering from is necessary, and that's just text alone. Then there's the culture and a lot of us who have spent some time in those rooms and I. Don't get me wrong I'm not bashing anything that works for anybody I'm just talking about my personal experience and some others tough. Tough law doesn't work for travel people including up to eat right, it can can feel really hostile, and it feels hassle. It's not safe. It was not safe. Productive teller stories are doing the work right so so that makes it really different and sometimes being told you know not be told her feeling. You're not welcome here if you don't do it our way by that that that that makes it feel even more on safe right and. I think it's really important for people to know whether they have trauma whether they're adopted or whether they have some outside issues. There's always a time that they need to find other people in areas of expertise to benefit because every solution is not necessarily found in a group that focuses on recovery from substance use disorders. There are the people I can bear witness and help with those facts, so I'll get off my soapbox for now, but not. Concerned that exists sometimes in the twelve step fellowships that are very similar to the the problems that people have in the beyond belief. secular universe have as well and lease is kind of interested in what organization you belong to for adoptees. There are several actually even have a group I often and older. Some who are a kind of on the burst search journey some are just you know fun? Others are for advocacy as far as access to our records on. That's Another one is citizenship having dual citizenship. I wanted to comment bow on something that David was saying. I think that the way that my perspective has changed over the last five years or so is that. I think when you first come in. We are voting vote broken, but today I I've still very proud of myself It hasn't been an easy road. They tell you that. Beck onomic insecurities will leave us. It hasn't left, but but but my fear you know my senior been the way that I approach it as is I'm a survivor and I say that I am not broken IAMs zillion. I mean we'll stuff that. I've been through especially in the last. Four or five years I is I feel like I? Come out the side, even those. Are Not working and I. Don't you know I? Just start my own employment knowledge panel worried about rent but I. don't know I just feel so empowered in so healthy. You know with With my net worth my support networks, thrones and people in the program in and out of opole. It's interesting that you mentioned the group that helps people find their biological parents I. I'm betting. That is getting to be more common nowadays with. People going online and Yeah especially with the DNA, testing or author share. In also for us by being. A. Whole adoption community. Younger, adopted the records. They better records. must for us, older ones. We don't have much hope, but. Adopted. Nuts seven eighties or salt meson since I think the records was better than their. They have more on chance of finding biological family members. One of the things that I was curious about in think David would probably have more experience in this is. is had know several people in recovery, who? Are adoptees but they it's within their family so it was usually like a sister somebody who you know, grab pregnant at a young age, and so then the mother, and adopted the child and raised, and so you know yeah, that kind of a situation actually most of it is. Is that sort of situation that or an aunt or somebody else in so then a child is raised thinking that their families a certain way, and at some point finds out that no, it's actually you know this person. Is your mother who you think you know your sister and. And Steph so I'm wondering about your experience with that. What sure sure well? That's interesting of course. I don't want to overly generalize anyone story. Because just like addiction story is very complex. Adoption stories are immensely complex as well, but yes, kinship adoption that you're describing happens very frequently, and sometimes it is preferable to outside placement or any number of alternatives that have just there. oftentimes social workers are adoption placement. People will look for family members to see if that's possible, because ultimately what that does not only does it provide structure, but it, but it helps to eliminate that secondary. Matter that has to be dealt with right so so the relinquishment never truly occurs to the degree that would occur if someone were placed outside of their family, and not all of that genetic mirroring lost. If someone has raised in their own family however. Whether someone is told. Given misinformation about who they are, and what their places in the family and raising them or not. They're not told until they're adult, right? I I know lots of adopt. These are late discovery. Adopt these L. D. as referred to as or told until they were twenty one or they found out when they went to get a marriage license. They were adopted and I can tell you as we know in dictionary recovery circles. Secrets and lies are not good things to perpetuate as one is trying to personally recover from white whether it'd be a dictionary. Or some type of complex toxic stress of developmental trauma so it it takes away that safety right so family has lied to one. That's the case in my case I did have it to that extreme but justice. Amir fact that my family told me I was adopted, and that was a great thing through to be alive because I was treated by some people I was ostracized by some people and treated as less than because I was adopted made to think that there was something wrong with me, so madge imagine being told by Jack Nicholson right. He was raised by. His sister, not his mother, and found out later in life that leaves a lasting impact, and that means that a level of trust and attachment has to be built up, and we go back to leases initial statements right these the thought processes that are so ingrained in the perception that are so ingrained that they take a lot of work to extract the reality in the context out of them to do that so yet. Ab Absolutely ngelo. There are a lot of people in that boat. And they as a result had those issues to deal with as well and you know, there's a lot of family secrets being uncovered now because of the different. ancestry sites my My wife is really involved in that stuff, family, research, and so forth and She was doing that. She was contacted by a woman who think through the DNA testing seem to be related to Susan. And as it turns out, she was and what it was. Is one of Susan's? Apparently was stationed in the navy on the West. Coast in San Francisco had an affair had a child never told anybody in Missouri his family. Missouri about it and so now this woman is reaching out, and all these the her father's dead and everything, but is reaching out and to Susan, and they put the pieces of the puzzle together, and they say oh. Yeah, this is your father. This is what happened. You know, but isn't that interesting? You know, but I'm sure that could be. You know maybe traumatic for the families themselves because I think that back in the fifties anyway, and maybe it's even to this day. There was a lot of stuff that was being swept under the rug, and not being talked about. Not being talked about an. Investigative because they simply didn't have the tools that you mentioned Ama-. Genetic genealogists who are so important in our world today help go through those. Yes, absolutely and the adoptive world I can, of course anyone stories specifically, there are many incidences of people who thought they had an uninterrupted family line who discover at one point in time. That man couldn't possibly have fathered that child. Who is my grandfather right so so there are interruptions in the chains of genealogy genetics all over the place, absolutely and these you're right. These are things that some people thought they were gonNA, take to the grave. Science has changed. All of that is uncovering that, but you know what's what's cool is Susan has become friends with this new and they still stay in touch so yeah. Excellent. But I can certainly understand the trauma of you know. Of Not, having that not having that identity, and then and searching four I'm sure that's something that people long for. Absolutely absolutely, and that's not something. We can't always complete other. They're just. They're just missing links. I can't speak out of my own experience, but I do work with people who have been a adopted from other countries, who there is no way they're going to ever retrieve any of their birth, history and as a result part of working a program of addiction and adoption recovery has to do with radical acceptance. I have to accept the best. Best going to be in fact, I can morning I can grieve it. I can do all the right things, but that's something that I can't focus on no longer hope for so what can I? What can I not focus my efforts on? And that's the case with Lisa's at Lisa. Yeah I was GONNA share that insight this gaping holes in. It's something that at different times in my life, that bothered me, and I think as I get older. It's. More apparent you know. Because like David, it's just stat accepting suspended some things I will never know. Because of the circumstances surrounding that at that time with Korea. Joe Is writing. He says that he did his DNA research in his nieces and nephews. Don't have the fifty percent that would be required to be the same as his elder brother who looks just like him. So, yeah. About that. Interest there are excellent genetic genealogists suck there, including those who can be referred by twenty three and me and the other deny sites who might help him deconstruct that. Yes, well. We didn't have any callers tonight, but I do hope that those of you who are listening and those who will be listening in the future have found this discussion helpful It was really great to have David and Lisa on here. One of the best things about doing this podcast for me is all the friends that I've made while doing it and I, count David and Lisa Angela among those friends. And all of you who listen as well and the people here participating in Youtube and on facebook. It's just so much fun I. Just I love all of you, so thank you so much for listening. Thank you I really enjoyed the discussion today in learned a lot, so I really appreciate Leeson David sharing their experience with us. Thanks a lot guys my pleasure. And now the music. And that's it. That's another episode of Aa beyond belief the podcast. Thank you everybody listening. It was great to be here. Sorry about the south. All the issues we may have had today, but that's not a big deal. If you would like to participate in supporting. Belief the podcast and website even do so in a couple of plays you can visit our patriots side pitchy on dot com slash AA beyond belief. That's right. Yeah, and just become a scribe. We have like Oh, I think forty subscribers now and It's very nice. Thank you so much for that and you can also. Donate, through pay, Pal, pay dot me, slash a beyond belief or good or our website and I think that's about it, so thanks, everybody! We'll be back again. Next Friday for another sober doesn't seem episode I'm not quite sure what will be discussing, but we will be posting that real seen take care while.

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1453 Drs. Katie Heald & Ashley Keen of Aspen Share a Day in the Life at a DSO : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1:07:26 hr | 2 months ago

1453 Drs. Katie Heald & Ashley Keen of Aspen Share a Day in the Life at a DSO : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

"It's just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interviewing to amazing young dentist I will go with Dr Katie healed DDS completer. Degree at Virginia, Tech and went to Dental School of Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond Virginia after dental school she completed a general practice residency at the Va Hospital in conjunction with the University of Florida in Gainesville. She has a strong background medically compromise and geriatric patients owns four offices were Dr Hilda, and her care team actively treat thousands of patients in need and she must be a damn good Dennis because. Katie, he'll, and now she's Katie Hill sees was successful in healing over patients. The next one is Dr Ashley Keener Marriage DDS. Is Dennis, partner of the Ruskin Florida, Sun, city location. She graduated from Louisiana State University with years of experience she and the rest of the Aspen team or proud to offer professional compassionate care she was born in Philadelphia relocated at North Port Florida where she when she was ten. Years old and quickly became a Florida girl loving the beach and sunshine. She subsequently moved to Coral Gables, Florida where she attended the University of Miami and met her husband Andrew. Her next move was in New Orleans where she under degree for mellow. Shoe she moved back to Florida after dental school and join Aspen dental and their Sun City location and my God I could read on and on and on I just Think, you so much for coming on the show today I. I wanted you guys to come on because. You can only you only want to listen to fifty eight year old GRANDPA much. I. Mean My my journey adults who was in hundred, eighty seven, and so a quarter of our viewers are still in dental school and the rest are all under thirty. I'm the I think I'm the oldest guy that's ever listened to my podcast. So I wanted to hear from you two young ones I'm long have each out of school. I grab it into his wealth and joined accident in two, thousand and thirteen. So even out eight years. And how about Ashley? Translated in two, thousand, thirteen. So seven years eight and seven. Yeah, I take. Algebra. So I could do that my head. So. So what is it I just want to get right to the base it what is it like What do you think it would be like if you were the unfortunate unlucky class of graduating class of twenty twenty covert twenty, twenty class I. Mean I'm here in Phoenix we got to Donaldson's we gotta still in Mesa. We got Mid Western over here in Glendale and. What would you to those people? They're probably wondering what the Hell's going on. So I would say just I'm sorry what a horrible year to try. School but it's going to test your perseverance near determination in. It's only going to make you a stronger clinician better for your patience your teams I can't imagine the stress going through that right now with ords and trying to get requirements seeing patients so more power to you and I can't even imagine what you're going through. Well that's amazing. Optimistic. I always thought I was so lucky graduating high school in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, eighty, one was the worst economy. I've ever seen the interest rates for twenty one percent double digit inflation unemployment in fact the. Chairman. Had to have armed security. Taking them to work about it I mean it was just horrible but it made you realize that things can come to an end from dental school in eighty seven may eleven eighty seven in? September was black Monday. where the market did it again. So right when I open, I just hired my team. I can still remember like it was yesterday having a team meaning in our waiting room and all my staff was scared that I think we're going to have a job and I mean just crazy Katie, what do you? What would you tell them? Think he can get through this. They can get through a lot. I can figure out a way to navigate through boards and getting a job and Practice I think they can really make it through a lot and I think it's GonNa teach them a lot about. The. Inability of dentistry and that if they can make it through this, they can make it through a lot. Well, you know I was I felt very fortunate to have Bob Fontana the founder of Aspen Come on the show he was up soda thirteen, thirty, three, one, three, three, and you know when I got out of school in eighty seven the only people that would offer jobs to a new graduate was the about twenty percents classroom mom and dad was already dentist. So you know you kind of had to end with your mom and Dad the army navy airforce Breen's public health public health and I am. So thankful of all the jobs that DSO's are providing to the new graduates and I mean there's so many there's one hundred, sixty, eight hours in a week, and so many of the dentist my age they only have their office opened thirty two hours a week, and they could avenue associate and extended hours and provide jobs and all that but who's really getting done. Is the DSO's and you worked for Bob Fontana Aspen Dental. One of the biggest DSO's How how is that like talk about your journey and how did you end up on Bob Bob Fontana Doorway? I really wasn't sure what I wanted to do after my residency. I wasn't sure if I wanted to actualize or what I really needed and so I I needed to find a job. I wanted I originally started in Florida so wanted to same Florida wasn't ready to move back to the NFL I found. Athen and I'm. Starting with Athen, not really knowing if I was gonNA say or not. But. I could develop my skills and practice really high wanted I was given a lot of autonomy to on. My skilled her surgical skills and. Really be on my own, but had a lot of support had a lot of direction Guidance from business side and also from the clinical side of having tremendous mentor ship and support and added to stick around. Group practice is more fulfilling than solo practice. Would you agree? I I I completely agree I I you know even if I was only the only provider in the offense I knew I was never alone I was never on an island I had plenty of people to reach out to even mid procedure had people that I know instant phone if I have an issue. Yeah. I hired my first associate Bob Savage straight dental schools, same age as me just because you go from dental school, the one hundred twenty classmates now being the only dentist in the building and it just it just wasn't fun and it was just far more fun and exciting always build the top dentistry with another dentist So you've You decided you when you got a job there. You didn't know how long you'd stay, and now you stayed eight years and you own four offices with Aspen. Or. North. Carolina. Four in North Carolina so so many people in fact, there's even a threat on dental town. What does that mean? So are you? So. If you own offices at a franchise, a partnership I mean is like owning a McDonald's franchise or how would you describe? Your ownership. Is really the management firm that deals with a lot of the front office management Hiring payroll insurance go she. Beats for supplies, and so they really handle a lot of baton. They're employed by me to take care of those things that I can really focus on taking care. So can you show the numbers that least they're employed by you like what percent overhead or what percent cost or? Differs from state to state on what the percentages are based on a regulations and guidelines. Yeah and that is. That is a mess in some things in the United States, you can say, well having a big country, three, hundred, twenty, five, million, have all these advantages of the scale. But when it comes to healthcare, each of the individual states have micro managed to where it's just not. You know you can't say, Oh, we get this big market, the United States, you can choose and you know so many other cars and all that kind of stuff but the regulations and healthcare are absurd So so you have four offices. Eight years out of school. That's crazy is is eight the lucky number Are you already have more? Are you go I mean? Four offices in eight years. Are you going to shoot for more or what? What's your goal? And they have a goal really what I feel like I can. You know emotionally handle if I feel like I've taken on plenty then I'll stop there but I have a fifty one coming in October and accurately help. With a lot of the the management. So I can take on math hire associates, and really get off up and going and running efficiently and effectively now is that or your officers all together in one city in North Carolina or they spread out throughout the state or Three within about thirty minutes of each other in central North Carolina and have one office in Western Carolina in Morganson, and how long does it take you to get there? On our forty five minute. Okay. Learn one lesson from my father. Will you please learn one lesson? So my dad was Howard Eugene Veran and and the whole idea he named me Howard Eugene Fran, the second. So it was so confusing that before. I was ten everybody was referring to my dad is his middle name gene and they referred to me as a mistake and he had five sonic drive ins in Wichita but he wanted to go national that. was that was the extent of it? So he went to Abilene Kansas and Carney Nebraska north and south you went to children Texas and East he went to Louisville those four offices nearly killed them because when you have five offices, five locations in Wichita, your management team handled out like it was smooth but man when you have an office that has a problem and you have to go to Louisville Kentucky or Texas or I mean it was just crazy so. My Gosh? Why would you leave? North. Carolina. I mean what's the population North Carolina? I've no idea. That's That's why God made Google. So let's see what Let's see what the North Carolina Population twenty twenty is. Ten million people holy moly. So ten million and you need to Dennis every two thousand I, hope when you're as old and fat and bald as I am that you're still in North Carolina because it just means so much to be able to be So close so. So Ashley. Would were. At now you're one office one location. What are you doing? Yeah. So I am at one office location I'm actually a little bit different than a doctor healed I'm a partner on an office. So myself in one other dentist only office together. So how aspirin work is like Dr he'll Jones multiple offices in as you grow and continue to add offices you also will add partners in your practices so that The workload is shared. You have growth opportunities for your doctors that are working in your offices, and that's kind of where I'm at the Florida. Market is a little bit different, the North Carolina it's a little bit more established. There's not as many new practices that are opening with availability to own them myself. So I'm my family's here by I'm comfortable here I don't really want to relocate. So this is kind of mess we're going to be for a while. So you're saying you like your family. And some days high goodness. Gracious. But it's fun getting old by my five sisters. They always argued forever and ever. But now that they're all between fifty and sixty now they're just It's funny I I'm the only guy that when when they're getting to lovey. Dovey. I was reminded them of their crazy pass and now they're in denial they're like Oh Howard that I don't remember that. Okay. Wow you're so old you don't remember that. So. A lot of people are saying I again I feel I don't WanNa. Be The man expert on different between men and women dentists because I'm just a boy but a lot of people say that it's tough being female Dennis because you know we just you know man. You know we just donated game I, you have to incubate it for nine months, and there's a lot of issues with with child rearing and all that. Do you think? For all the girls in dental. School. They're you know they have professionals I wanna be a dentist I'm going to own my own practice I to do all these things. But for a lot of them biology saying you, I wanna be a mom and if you ask me I always say family I this second I mean I'd rather be a better dad than a better dentists I. Mean I don't WanNa Bunch at. Alphabet soup after my name I wanNA have a good positive relationship with my four boys and I'm glad I never killed any of them because they made me six grandkids. That's so if you're ever thinking about killing your children remember it'll be worth it when you get the grandchildren. If someone was asking you in dental school say. Katie. Ashley. I really WANNA be a great Dennis, but I really WANNA. Be a great mom Do you think there's advantages? At Aspen if you have two goals of family hood and Dentistry Hood. One hundred percent anyway. Being with Aspen Dental provide you a network of support on so many different levels. So like Dr healed was already saying she was saying that. We can focus more on the dentistry in Aspen. Dental are eighty is focusing on helping us with the business side. That's already a headache off. You're late, you're able to do your dentistry at work and leave it at work and go home and enjoy families. The other advantages were huge network of doctors and providers and were truly family, and we're here to help each other. So if something happens. Were able to extend help to other offices whether we help take care of their patients or send an associate to cover their office. There's always a network of people there to support you and it allows you the freedom to not have to worry and not have to stress about what's going to happen to my office if I need to stay home for a or my daughter gets sick or vines. There's always someone there to be there for you now do either you already have children. Yes. How many each? I hear the daughter you have a daughter. And Katie. Are. Tied Hero who sign and the two and a half year old daughter. So so Katie having a five and a half year old son Internet how old? Ashley. How your child is sort of have. Do you guys? Do you guys think it's easier to be moms and dentists with Aspen than if you would've just built your own office. School may eleven had my own? September twenty first do you think you're in a situation that's easier for your job now than than if you just had your own? Solo. Office. Absolutely. Absolutely why? my husband author travels for work. So if something's going on in the office, that emergency happens after hours. Actually, go. Meet somebody at the office if I had my own private practice getting the kid to bed to the office wait for somebody to come to the office. With we pick up the phone call regional manager, they handle it for me. I'll have to I'll have to leave my house I'd say you need to handle it and somebody will be in the office to fix whatever issue I have And just from come on maternity leave with my two children are no the doctor WHO's coming into cover I know my office burned down I can take six weeks or more to spend time with my children and not feel pressure that I need to come back immediately after having a baby. That is now do you see some people report? I've seen reports that that's why DSO's. Over sixty percent of all their dentists are female. Do you see that? Do agree with that number or do you know what that number is for Aspen what percent of their dentist or female versus male? I don't know for Aspen in general but I know that we have a lot of female Dennis because I have lots of in before me that helps set the groundwork and I mentor several that are younger than myself as well. So in my specific region were more female than male but company-wide I, I can't really speak to that. Yeah I. I've seen several reports That you know more than more than sixty percent of all the dentists that Gobi an owner ship or whatever. Or female and I think it's a I. think it's obvious. Another thing I've noticed is that when I was little, I had five sisters I'm very sensitive of all those issues because they always affected me like whatever girls couldn't do back then in the sixties. All my playmates couldn't do so then how he couldn't do it you know what I mean. So if my sisters couldn't swim in the river, but I could why then I'm swimming alone in the river that's no fun. You know you want go fishing and swimming with your sisters. So it very very weird. But I noticed that the time all the obgyn's were males. And now I notice there almost all females and I'm seeing that shift in pediatric dentistry MOMS. You get the number from your own calling center I. I wouldn't have met Bob calling center over in Chandler and filled in all the incoming calls and that guy was telling me thought he said eighty five percent of the incoming calls to schedule where female have you ever heard a number like that. I haven't but I'm not surprised. Yeah and and so you know if moms are making the appointments and she's got two people to pick from and she's got a two year old and eight year old and she's looking at you and then she's looking at this fifty eight year old grandpa me. I, mean she just didn't feel more natural plus if you look back some of the terms I can obgyn the call it a hysterectomy history history is Greek for crazy I mean you know just just rude names that like only a man could call that procedure it was it was crazy times and now I see Now I see the same thing happened in pediatric dentistry when I go to residencies and dental schools and say, they have six people in their pediatric residents class. It's five ladies and one man, and so I, I've always said in fact, I I, I told this to was Teresa Murphy, back in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, nine, I said well, I really believe since everybody's afraid of the dentist and I know so my four boys when they got hurt they. Wanted Mom not dad and you and I just think the whole world thinks that women are more gentle and they're all afraid of pain at the dentist. I. Told Her that when she got an associate, even make sure that's a female just brand of female dental office I. think that's a massive competitive advantage. Do you think being a woman dentist is a competitive advantage to the US market I think he can be i. think it definitely handy. You know I had. When I first started acting as an associate I worked with a male doctor somebody was particularly afraid or really was not feeling the. Mail Mail dentists in the office they would they send in the angel and so they would send me into mood things over and make people feel a little bit better and if they were having a rough time. So I definitely. Think it can have some Indian. What do you think? Ashley. I think it can as well I had. That specifically said they've come to me or my office because we are a female staff female dentists and I also think you get the opposite as well. Though is really with the older population. They expect something when you picture a dentist, you don't always picture a younger female dentists in. So I think sometimes there's a misconception there are bowl is always to make the patients comfortable and to make them feel at home at ease and win them over that way. So you know that exact experience happened in my office back, you know back in an eighty, seven, hundred, eighty nine and where my female associate went to give a shot and a man that was actually older than me at the time grab your arm and said, shouldn't the doctor do that and she was upset with him and I'm like well, him just is i. mean you know some things are is what it is I mean if you don't like the next Galaxy, Andrew Media is moving in and again a crash with our galaxy, and then within a billion years of the Milky Way and Andhra media or going to crash. I don't like that. But it just is. So I said so it's our fault and I was looking at the the staff and you couldn't tell anybody was different I said if I was in the hospital and a guy came into my office wearing a tool belt and he had drills and pliers and all that and started started to start Iv, I would have said. No you know So we immediately went to doctors look like this hygienics look like this assistance So we got four uniforms for four different positions in the office and I think that was clearly you knew if someone had on this uniform, you knew what they did and office So do you guys do that are do do the doctors were? Totally different looking scrubs or outfits then. Assistant. Jensen Admin. I've started where I always wear white coat so that and the rest of the staff isn't wearing now with Cova things a little bit different everyone kind of looks the same again but you know that is what it is. It's one of those six. Yeah. So A big problem with millennials is I don't want to be that old guy you know Look how bad we left the country for you guys though you know old. Old People have nothing to complain but millennials, but it is obvious that they changed jobs frequently like if you go to the stocks, which is fam- facebook Apple Alphabet Netflix's Microsoft all those their average employee only lasts one to two years. I'm Amazon the shortest if you're for Jeff, bezos gone in a year and facebook has the best perks the best everything. Amazing and then we keep their employees two years because you know you could be working at facebook for two years and some guy from Uber walkup Jeremy at a bar and say you gotta to get into driverless cars and thing like my my uncle that lives. Up The street here, he got a job with mobile oil when he was sixteen and he retired at sixty six, he had one job one job so so. But it's not just. Private practice whenever you meet a dentist five years out of school they've had five different jobs and it doesn't matter if it's private practice Indian public health whatever they just job hop lot are Do you see that where you're at? Aspen and what you? Do. To try to retain people. But most importantly, why did you guys stay? I mean you guys have been there what one seven years? So both of you have been there seven to eight years how come you haven't had seven to eight different jobs in seven to eight different years like everybody that works for. Apple and facebook and Google. I think the biggest thing for me is security. You know what you're doing every day you know what you're getting into every day you have the support, you need to do it and you have the autonomy to decide what this career can look like for you. You can be an owner of multiple practices you could own practice you could partner you could stay justin associate there. So many different options in pathways that provide you with decision for yourself. No one's making. That decision for you ask for our staff I mean just like anywhere else you've got to treat them like family I've gotten to the point where I do all my own hiring and I hire uncles personality if everyone in the office gets well and they're happy to come to work every day and they work great together, they're more likely to stay with you I. Most of my staff have been with me for three or four years now at this point in. Were happy. We're good family we work together. We're here to take care of patients and we all get to go home at the end of the day and her own family time. Okay. So you obviously. Or. Leader I mean you're you're attracting and retaining and keeping employees. Lot of dentists who can't attract him I can't retain them and. We're we're does this leadership in you come from we're we're where it was sports was a was a girl scouts when we're does this leadership skills Come from. Playing Sports, I had two brothers So I was always the oldest in the family I think that has part of it from growing up. My parents always instilled into us that you know we need to take ownership for our actions and be kind to people and I grew up playing soccer my entire life in I think that's a big part of it and it's just something inside you. It's a desire and a will to around people and grow and mentor also. So you're, you're big sport was soccer. Yes that is a amazing I am. One of the neatest gifts of lecturing around the world was I was out lecturing and Africa and their that country's team was in the World Cup and I always thought Americans. We know that had serious fans. You don't even know what fans are till. You've been in Africa during World Cup and the only people who came close that was I got to watch another game in the World Cup years there in Paris, France, and those guys are so crazy. The police had to come I mean I. Literally thought they were GONNA to bring water cannons to a soccer game. So when I I'm I remember when the Arizona Cardinals came to town newspaper the the big issue for the first five years is a lot of proper people didn't think they should serve alcohol because of fans were were drinking alcohol to rowdy I'm like they look like a church service compared to Paris France and Africa I mean you you think you're at a wedding, not a sports game but So do you think? It's everything I mean you're number. One thing is I and is my book people time and money uncomplicate business. You're only managed things people time and money, and if you get A in people, you can get a d. on time and money and still be rich and successful and live happily life. You look at the sports teams I mean the only thing that matters is you have the right players on the team. It doesn't matter if the stadium has a retractable roof or artificial turf for Realtor, it's the people and I'm always telling Denisova lapsed a lot of staff turnover that I say, well, who's picking these people and you'll have an okay but. You've been picking people for ten years and it looks like you're really bad at it. So you know, let's let's get someone else to do it or do you think if someone was young and they were afraid of the responsibility and they're like, okay I'm twenty, five I just dental kindergarten I don't know if I can lead a team I don't know. Why they follow me all this stuff like that. Do you were born this way or do you think they can learn that is or things they can read what would you? What would you suggest to young? Dentist, do you mind me asking to hold your? Have you hit the Big Three? Oh. I'm thirty three thirty. Okay. Just barely Katie what about you? Before thirty four did you guys have this skills at when you're still in your twenties at twenty nine hundred you have these skills or is this something that being thrown if your family you know if your brothers pushing the swimming pool, you just got to learn how to swim. Do you feel like you went in and didn't have these skills and after your thrown in the office you just? Had Learn on the spot and what helped you learn them or what? They do definitely a learning they goes along with running an office I. Think. Really good groundwork from starting you as an associate and you don't have all of the responsibilities. He made a dental sustain. Tell them what what you want what you need, and then as you feel comfortable having more challenging conversations, people what you want. Then all of your skills developed, you can become a meeting clinical director and then you have additional responsibilities to running the office. and then eventually a partner or an owner, but having those little pathway to build foundation of leadership and having team of People behind you with Akron Admi who have a lot of leadership experience who've managed a lot of people to give you guidance is really very helpful So I think being. A female and being a little bossy and definitely helps. Get what I want, what I need, but I I think they're really as a very good foundation to developing people into very effective leaders. I also WANNA switch to you know. We're really supposed to be dental I mean patient focused and when I talked to dentist, he believed their dental dental focus, but they're just not they wanNA believe it but like the Federal Reserve has. The. Most Peach economist of anywhere in the world of. Thirty two hundred and they've come out with reports said America's got three, hundred, twenty, five, million people and a hundred million of them can't go to any doctor Monday through Friday five and then I'll say to the Dennis. Well, what are your hours? Monday through Thursday eight to four, and I'm like, okay well, Friday Saturday, Sunday, your dental office, just laser all your assets, all your fixed costs, rent, mortgage equipment bill computer insurance updates professional. It's all sitting there idle patients or calling your practice and they have pain. We see in the emergency room data here in Arizona eight percent of emergency room visits are owed onto genetic in origin, and if you go back in time, the lowest ever was was six percent. So do you feel that being in a group practice and having partners and having a larger entity that you're able to become more patient focused instead of dentists focused? Absolutely. It allows you to extend your office hours offer Saturday appointments offer late in the evening appointments because you have additional doctors in additional supports that you're not burning out one provider, you can't ask one person to work seventy hours a week and not get burnt out. It's not possible. So when you have a support network in multiple providers are able to extend those hours offer times to patients that's more convenient to them. assessed to cares important especially, dentistry and I think being an accident allows that. Not as big of an issue. Another thing is when you go back in time, you know in retail, you go back to the three hundred years. We got good data around the world of retail and it started out know three hundred years ago with. A little bitty business about this is of a one car garage. Then you lived upstairs above it and they called it a shop house and the strategic advantage that one for three centuries in a rose that the next generation always made it bigger. Because you had more selection yet more convenience and a man, and so one shop house was replaced by people who went to, and then it went to four and eight and maxed out at about two hundred, fifty, thousand square feet for your walmarts. Key is an Costco's and Sam Clubs, and then Walmart said, we actually We got two big we we hit our Max over the wall. Now we have a lot of pushback people like me I mean I would rather buy all my groceries at seven eleven. Then go to Safeway. The thought of going into Walmart. It's like going to a cardinals football game, which means you have to be drinking on the way there so. So I've noticed that. The new. Most outstanding business models that I've seen in the last ten years It was happening twenty years ago and I wasn't smart enough to recognize but it's surely now the last decade was like pediatric dentists plus orthodontists. One plus one equals three or buried on his plus process is getting huge. I'm looking at clear choice they took the oral surgeon with the prostate on us with the lab tack. And commit with clear choice I mean and people don't track their customers like when you call a dental office united semi say, why are you open on Saturday? It would if you have to say, no, we track that I WANNA know like Dennis will call me and say, how do you think this blue cross and Blue Shield ppm what do you think I'm a palm reader I mean this isn't I mean, it's crazy. I mean how many people have asked you do you take Blue Cross. Blue. Shield PPO and they don't they don't track anything and we've been doing that since nineteen eighty-seven I made a little prescription pads called getting to yes. Track all the nose and you have to wonder what a pediatric dentists. How would percent a mom's at take their baby to a pediatric dentist? We'll ask this question. Do you think booze get a need braces one day I mean I mean I mean that's probably the majority of them. So now, what are the pediatric dentist do? It's all about me me me me I always said the national anthem for Dentistry. Was Me me me sell sell sell Mimi, self, self, Mimi Self, self me Oh you WanNa, orthodontic opinion. Well, here you're GONNA have to leave my office and make an appointment and. Drive. Down the street and I know you had to leave work and pick your kid up from school and all that. But you know it's all about me and I'm a pediatric data's and I don't really understand why everybody keeps asking orthodontic questions. It's kind of irritating me and other people just embrace say God I mean Little Walmart. If I will look percent a mom's going to take their five year old to a pediatric dentist would ask about their bite and their future orthodontic needs. What would you? What would you say? It's pretty high. It's probably at least outside. Yeah. Four, hundred, five, I mean if if four out of five people that went to Walmart wanted something I don't know you'd think they'd carry it. I. Mean God. I mean Walmart won't carry anything to space. It takes by the way someone sent me this Dentistry. Uncensored Howard Fran joy comes in the morning Thankyou whoever sent this thing but it in Walmart whatever the volume of space this takes up, it has to turn twelve times a month or they don't even carry it. I mean they know what they're doing. So so there's a lot of specialists out there and I wanted to. You know there's my Gosh There was nine when I got out of school. Now, there's twelve oral surgery ended awnings buried onyx pediatric dentistry orthodontics. Prosthetics Dental anesthesiology oral facial pain Oilman Oral Path Oral Radiology and dental public health. How many of those twelve do you have? Do you have any of those come into your office or do you have to refer them somewhere else? We haven't come into the office we have ended on in rural third in come into the office. And and those are the top two joey seat. Is Oral surgeons ended on us, but you have to do you think you'll ever do any the anymore areo pedo. Ortho etc etc.. Any penalties for a little while Athens expanding its or thousand but. From a as a DP DP level but I think. Perry on world or oral surgeon. Indo. Really. So a lot of the needs that we have right now. And and and what about you actually. Yeah. We're the same. We have an oral surgeon ended honest that come in once or twice a month each. And we get all the time. What can I do this here? What can I do this year and it's really helpful it to say yeah sure. Yeah. Absolutely, and it's not just thought it's like even when you're antibiotic sometimes they're not gonNA fill it or whatever whatever and when I was worried about. Low Woods Angina. And they're young until he's young boys you know they're they're fearless or not gonNA die they can climb up a palm tree and solve a branch. They're never gonNA fall and I, got. I got really unlucky with a kid who didn't take his antibiotics and ended up three days later to be ostracized from her. So I started having antibiotics office to where I did not want you to be in charge of this. Part of the treatment you know what I mean it's Like. I'm scared. You're going to take this off two grams right now in front of me, here's the prescription to go get Phil but I wanNa make sure you get this dose or whatever it just really Increases Treatment Plant acceptance when it's faster easier higher quality lower in cost and smaller. So convenience means you're gonNA happen I. Mean Everybody in retail knows about impulsive shopping I mean, why are all the candy bars to feet off the ground me? I take my grandkids any grocery store and I mean, of course they're gonNA reach for all these bright colored packages red and yellow and orange at their eye level two feet off the ground and if you and if you say yeah, you can do it right here. Come back in the special. So come here and do it. It's more likely. They were GONNA get treatment. Would you agree or disagree? The agreed. That's why we also stress same day starts get the patient started that same day if you can that everything same day starts and a lot of the dentists, they can't do that because they don't have any. Capacity when you look at their cost. Their costs is they charge the number. One cost is your. INSURANCE PPO reduction that you agree to contract for a volume discount. So you charge thousand dollars for a crown but if you sign up this PPO, they're going to pay you six fifty. So that thirty five percent nationally across America. It's about forty two percent of that is the number one overhead costs and dentistry that didn't exist when I got of school and then the. Second would be labor. You know that's twenty two or twenty, five percent. You routinely see it all the way to thirty labs, ten supplies, six opera Tories they don't even show up on the breakout in your your coun- does it even break out the cost and they called the office they say I have an emergency and they're looking if they have a chair. And say, why don't you have an emergency chair or two and the two that you just mentioned coming off office oral surgery ended honest. They are the most likely to have to emergency rooms and emergency room is a room that no one scheduled in a lot of say will yeah my hygienist room want I work mainly at room two, sometimes three but room fours for emergencies I'm like Dude, there's three appointments in that room every day as far as I can go back in the schedule that's not an emergency. So when someone calls it an emergency and you're looking for a chair and you Don't have a chair I mean for some reason think chairs or your constraint, your cost, and they're not, and then the funny thing is Dennis. Well, what's your complaint wh? What's one of your big complaints no-shows in cancellations? Okay. Well, that emergency came down and you thought you were just GonNa get exam and write a prescription and get a diagnosis and then they tell you oh, you're ten o'clock didn't show are just cancelled or whatever. Now you realize Oh my God. I got a whole hour to spend this emergency and I can do same day treatment I think same. When dentists don't know their treatment plan acceptance rates, and by the way I don't like people sharing treatment plant acceptance rates when a lot of includes both talks and veneers and bleaching bonding I mean, let's be a doctor I. Nobody ever needed a facelift or any of that stuff I can't sell I mean for me to tell you too ladies Katie Ashley I think you two should bleach your teeth you're looking to be saying, yeah you should lose thirty pounds, get a Tan and were a wig. You know you WANNA YOU WANNA go for round two so I but for Dr Stuff? Things that you need for epidemiological re reasons to lower the disease museum filled teeth of your community my gosh. The more accessible and available is the more the treatments can get accepted, and then you're going to be a better dentist. It in it's helpful. There have been kind of guidelines with your scheduling suggestions on how to effectively schedule that you have the ability to work in those same day starts, and it's something that as an organization, we WANNA be a Yak organization until have be able to say yes to these patients. Jetting serving. So here's another thing I an issue I wanNA talk I wanNA take advantage of talking to younger doctors. In their thirties. You know in one, thousand, nine, hundred, there were no specialties and healthcare is one percent of the GDP by the end of the century two, thousand, it was fourteen percent of the GDP fourteen cents of every dollar spent on healthcare and there were fifty eight medical specialties nine in dentistry. Now, it's twenty twenty dentists up to twelve specialties and the cost of healthcare is up to seventeen percent yet you see these kids coming out of school and they tell you. Right out of school I WANNA learn how to place implants to learn how to clear liners I'm GonNa do Molar Endo I do silver demean fluoride I wanted to process though I wanna I'm GonNa go get certified for anesthesiology I mean it's like so basically you think we're going back in time I mean what consumer I mean my my doctor. If you have a problem with the Glaucoma, he send you to a person who specializes In Diabetic Glaucoma, if it's a retina got retina detached. If you just want glasses, he has the optician in the in the building. I. Mean why do so many millennials think they're going to master all twelve dental specialties when there's just only twenty four hours in a day? I. Mean where does this come from and what is your advice on someone who wants to place implants do invis- line Molin dough and you name it What they like they don't know what they really like and they don't know what they're good at and so once they get into practice to figure out well, I thought I liked endo but I don't WanNa work in another small coal and I'd rather focus my efforts on surgical skill. So I think they need to get their feet wet you're out what they really like and they can start to hone their surgical skills on a couple of things rather than. China after all of them. Because you're a master everything you're I. Mean if you do Jack of all trades, ask for nothing what do you? What do you think? Yeah, I think that all the new grads that I. Encounter thank they're very ambitious and driven and they want to learn and there's a thirst for knowledge which is super important in our field. But the advice that I give them as let's work on our bread and butter dentistry I let's work on getting our hands skills learn the business side of dentistry a little bit, and then we start piecing those extra pieces over time. You know it's not gonNA happen overnight and I agree with Katie said like we need to focus on what you're good at start there and then challenge yourself as. Time. Goes on. So what would you say is broadened buttered dentistry. Accidental in particular, you need to be good at extractions. He needs to be able to handle geriatric patients, medically compromised patients, fillings, crowns, and bridges hygiene proper diagnosis, comprehensive dentistry We don't WanNa do peacecorps dynasty that's not GonNa last for the patient and we want to make sure that they're diseases control. So start there then we move on to bigger things know your limits, which is a hard thing for a lot of people to do, but you gotTa know your limits. Yeah and I think that I recommend that you learn one specially every five years not that you're going to be as good as oral surgeon place implants, new bone grafting, and do a lefort fracture and do on four but just so that you stay motivated and cross trained in the diagnosis and treatment plan because I remember when I came out of school either really really bad attitude about sinus lifts and it wasn't until I went and got my fellowship in the the missions with Carl Mitch were it was in Pittsburgh three day weekend. Seven weekends and it wasn't that I was GONNA come back and do that master that. But it certainly changed my knowledge, my diagnosing treatment planning, and I realize a lot had changed since what I learned dental and you don't know how that is because some instructors are up to date and some instructors are talking about ten years ago So I and and if you just do the same thing over and over and over learn out lead Bernau. So I love the you know every five years I'm going to pick one of the twelve specialties and I'm going to chase it hard and try to learn everything I can about it and maybe do some of the simple procedures but Nada. But. You're not going to be a master of all trades There's a I want to switch to current the pandemic I don't know if you guys have heard but there's evidently there are some severe as respiratory virus going around. A lot of seniors. And I've had them cry in front of me I mean real tears that have lost her self esteem because they didn't get any clear time and they say I only did root canals on Taepodong. I never did a canal on a live human and the just feel like They don't even have enough self esteem to knock on your door like Katie would laugh if she knew my skill, what would you say to the pandemic class? Who Probably got short change lot of clinic hours. You know I think they. Shouldn't doubt themselves. They are stronger than they think and skills can always be taught. You can always still learn the skills whether you want to go into a residency program or gum into a DSL. There's people that will mentor you and that will give you the opportunity to start in learning skills and get your hands back working again. You say. There's a lot of dentistry to be done in. There's no need to feel any certain way. It's not anything that you could have controlled by not being Black Clinton time. There's factors at be it's just part of life so. Acknowledging, the fact that you know. Your skills aren't where they could be is the first step and knowing that there's so many opportunities for learning out there. There's so many programs of C e DSL Aspen, dental want at mentorship with doctors all around the country that love to help people learn Growing your hand skills and growing Asian interactions just takes time and you can do that in the workforce. You just have to put yourself out there. What will you go into that in more details facility for Aspen like if she got a job for Aspen now you see you have oral surgeon ended on US come in like when the oral surgeon comes in and is doing extracting wisdom teeth and implants would she be out to assist and learn that way for surgery and Endo do you have online courses you talk in more detail about? How? They can advance their training by working for Aspen. Sure. We have an online learning in development. Page, there's on-demand c e or webinars all the time weekly daily. You also spend your first month with the company you are spent within it established training. Dr. A mentor doctor you spend an entire month with them and it's custom. Your training is custom fit you. So things in areas where you need to improve. That's what we focus on mentoring doctor right now who just graduated and with spend that Chime learning the business san learning hand skills and working side-by-side together I can assist her. She can assist me before he even against her own office where she'll be practicing on her own. and. By the way I just I wanNA point out if you're wondering. is how we doing paid commercial for Aspen, no zero dollars. You can't by someone this old. The thing I love about Dso's again is They're the only ones higher my homeys I mean I. And Tell you how bad it is. So don't town started on Saint Patrick's Day ninety nine and we've had free classified ads very robust deal, and there's always been about one thousand that a selling their practice for cell and about five thousand jobs for associates and when the pandemic came immediately went to two thousand selling and all my practice transition guys are saying. Dude. If if they're sixty years old and they never been divorced, this is the last Straw. You know if you've never been divorced and your sixty year old doctor in America, you can retire and they said forget this I'm not going to do all this PP and all this crab they they just put up for cell now if you've got divorced one time. You'll pushback your retirement a decade, and if you get divorced twice, you'll actually die at the chair in the Opera Tori. So but I have a lot of respect him right now the five thousand associates is down to one thousand on dental town those one thousand jobs, they're all DSO's. And then the other thing I like about the DSO's is how I think it sad doctors always saying. We'll you know people don't treat dentists like real doctors say well, you're not a real doctor and they say, what do you mean? I said we'll go out on Sunday I raised boys you fold down in hurt yourself and break a leg on a Sunday the ambulance man shows up he takes you the hospital they're all staff they're all all the doctors already go if you've broke all. Your teeth out on Sunday in Phoenix Arizona with three point, eight, million people you would find to Unicorns Mermaid before you found a dental office open to see you, and that's why when they have emergency, they go to the real doctors at the emergency room, which is six to eight percent of all the emergencies because the dentist can't be found and I see four better consumer oriented behavior. With extended hours available, they have better availability and availability and accessibility and affordability. If you're. One on the patient and one ion cost, and if you don't use your brain to drive down cost, then this human can't afford the freedom to fix their teeth and anybody and it's always weird Dennis that they always say their cost and they tell me what to do not say well, is that going to be faster easier higher quality lower costs smaller. Well actually it's GONNA take a lot instead of. Our can take two hours cost twice as much and you got to buy this fifty thousand dollar machine and and one hundred, twenty dollars. I've disposables that rinsed the tooth out and it's like, okay. So so you're more interested in the eighty-six car companies before Henry Ford that no one ever remembers her talks about were they just made one car for rich king, but it was all henry that said I'm aiming for the middle class and my entire Fran family tree. In fact, we were kicked out at twenty three and me they said, they said what's going on here? You know this is too to too many mutants in there. My whole pedigrees, middle class you know what? I mean and if it's not affordable, then it's not accessible than they're going to get their teeth pulled and too many people were dentures because they couldn't afford the freedom to save their teeth. So so there's A. Lot of great things So this is not a commercial but I do. Think there's so much that they could all learn. So. Go Go back into that like right now like. or You guys hiring now from the covert class of twenty twenty? Yes Yes, absolutely. Absolutely and can I ask specific like. What, what would be the when asked US civic got money because the American Dental Education Association says the average. Dental school senior in two, thousand, seventeen was two, hundred, Eighty, seven, thousand, three, hundred, and thirty one. I don't like that number because it's a median number on a like media numbers take mode any day because seventeen percent of those kids didn't have any long because her mom and dad were Denison paid for it. So they're basically coming out of school one, hundred, thousand dollars a year in debt. So if they four years old school four, hundred, thousand dollars in debt, and by the way she thinks that's a lot of money and basically the average cost raising a child in America from seventeen including college is two, hundred and thirty, three thousand. So my mom had seven kids. I had four already had three last kid. So I could have gone a dental school three different times and been even with my mom, and then I always have to remind people that if you think your student loans. Is a lot of money. My God. I hope you call me I when you get divorced and see what that number is. So. I I don't know why I have to look this up but my divorced three, million, eight, hundred, thousand, two loans for eighty seven thousand. So my my divorce was forty three times more expensive than my student loans but she doesn't know someday that she's GonNa have to pay someone. To Go away right now she thinks that student loans a big number. So she's thinking well, if I get a job for you how much I make. Daily rate. So come play locus virus, you shops office to get a daily rate in for a young graduate. You has a tremendous amount of student loans that's very secure. Feeling that. You. Shell out you try to do good work. You see your patients and you're going to get paid and what's the daily rate? Varies from honor to honor and across the country. Yeah, and I I'm sorry I even asked that question because the most misleading term in the world is the United States of America I mean, no one talks about the EU like they talk about America everybody would break out Germany from Greece everybody would break out Spain from Portugal. Denmark. But we include Alaska to Miami to Parsons Kansas to New York City. So like on the price of Ortho. The true price of Orthodontics in America from board certified orthodontist is four thousand to seven thousand dollars a case because it depends are you in Salina Kansas or you in San? Francisco downtown so it does vary state to state do you So they got a guaranteed day rate is also Versus like twenty, five percent of production or. Anything like that to use the benefits of. An economic incentives matter and it just drives me crazy when people from socialize healthcare's system say well, you know I went in an operation and I didn't even have a copayment. Oh. So so you basically say that we should throw away all economic said, well, that's great. If you told all the universities that everything we've learned since Adam Smith doesn't apply to you because you're special I mean if the if the copayment mattered everybody. In Medicaid Medicare every hospital if they didn't have at least a five percent co payment I think it should be ten percent because when you tell grandma you need a new hip and you need to new knees and and she doesn't have any copayments says, okay. You know you're the doctor. But when you say that's actually fifty thousand dollars a knee and you'll need to give me five thousand that knee about half the time. Say. Are, you kidding me I'm GONNA take buffering I'm not going to spend five thousand dollars on me. Okay. So you spend five thousand dollars on your own knee but my taxes are supposed to pick up fifty thousand dollars for the whole knee. I have seen where people need operation. So many times doctors don't realize how influential are they are I've seen this happen. So many times where the doctor, the the ban goes the. Dentist and he says Johnny I'm sorry I know you've been smoke longtime but you have to stop this is killing you I mean these gums are already inflamed and forget the gums and lose all teeth your hearts only a hand a hand away from these gums and do you're you're going to die of a heart attack you gotta quit smoking and then the mom always comes in I've been telling him to quit for twenty years. But Old Doctor Fran tells him one time one time and he stopped. So maybe when you tell grandma, she needs a new nation you know and you know why you need any because you're overweight you don't excite and managed. They'll say you know what I. Okay. I'm finally going to do my doctor said I got to lose weight and exercise or. I'm going to have to come up with five grand to get any. I mean they just they just have delirious thoughts about a economics. -Oday rate is a guarantee but production utilizes everything we've learned in two centuries of economic theory So what is the? What is the other senator? Does that very location location or is that a standard? Percent of production number. So it's actually not a like a percentage production which I actually really liked. The best thing about the way doctors are incentivized is it's a team approach. So in private practice, you get paid percent of production for what you do and I hear stories all the time how how people get the crap work right so they get to do the molar root canals are the MO DB L. feelings and with insurance they're not producing. So how ask the dentals incentive program works as you get your daily rate, but then you're based off with entire office production. So your incentive is based off what all of the doctors and hygienists in the office are producing together. Which is really nice. So it's a lower percentage than at twenty five, thirty percent that you would hear but it's not just based off of what you're doing. It's what the entire office is doing together. So. The team based on what about you, Katie? It's the same it's. It's really nice. 'cause you can utilize if your schedule's oral surgeon coming, you can utilize your oral surgeon schedule put more surgeries on on his schedule, your taking care of the patients getting them treatment and made are then the whole office benefits from maximizing the schedules of writers. So does the oral surgeon. Put Patience Asleep to do they do we sedation? They do that? You have dental anesthesiologist come in are just just oral surgeon does those. For me, it's been the role surgeon. And same for you. What if someone sat on? I'm really phobic and I'm really scared and I want to be put to sleep. Will the oral surgeon come in and do a sedation while you do the root canal are not really I haven't had that happen. I think it might be something we need to be discussed curtis specialist, but it has administration that I actually are well. I can't, believe. I got to doctors to give me an hour out of their busy day on Tuesday to come in and talk to me. I can't believe that our already went by but. I I just want you. Eat share some final thoughts. About the young kids, I mean they're they're scared they're unemployeed. It's really frightening. Some of the people I mean they're really really scared Would you? What would you say to the kids Right now they're unemployed Dennis and don't know what to do. I would tell him not. The it's okay to be afraid. It really is. It's okay to be afraid to. Have some uncertainties but. There are organizations like DSL or GP are great environment for you to. Learn. Those hand skills be confident in who you are and kind of get back some of that loss time this you didn't get when you were in clinic can you run slow? You're GONNA have a great host mentors behind you and aspirins hiring. So demand is here for our patient population and we need the providers in a few WANNA. Work WanNA come in we're happy to have yet. So what would they do go to aspen dental dot com or what were they go? What's that Asin dental jobs? ASPEN GENTLE DOT COM and okay. And if they say how he sent you I, get a case of beer and a of Jameson since Irish. Is that a fair And and what she said, do you specifically, Katie? Would you recommend more that I, go get a GP er or go get a job ESO. Or. Aspen. GP OUR GPO was wonderful but I think acid has a lot of value that some deep ers cannot give you. You're. GonNa get the mentor ship. You're going to get the business education. You'RE GONNA get. Time to figure out who you are what you like. So I think. The acids a great option something that they want to get. Kidding I WANNA. Ask You a question because you're a neutral party. Ashley is in Florida, which is the absolute craziest state in the nation, and now everybody calls Arizona the Florida of the West. Would you recommend they go too crazy. Oh, Florida East or the crazy old Florida of the West Arizona. I'm not. INITIAL CARDIAC GO TO FLORIDA Dry. started. Florida Holloway. What your final thoughts First of all, who's more crazy the people of Florida or Arizona of Florida for sure. That is got to. Florida is crazy state didn't know why it is right because something that all economists have said in all historians say the problem with humans when they're not transparent, you just gotta be transparent. And all of Florida's. Crime and police, and all that stuff is transparent. So the journalists have access to all this stuff. You know. So Katie I know you gotta go gotTa go I know you're you're writing for patient but. Your final thoughts Ashley. I would just say that it's okay to be scared and it's normal coming out of dental school. Yes. The candy and Kobe has magnified those feelings, but there are jobs out there. There's a lot of dentistry to do there a great doctors all over the country that want to mentor you need your help patients need us the demand is here were back to pre Kobe levels of demand, and we need providers to give that care. The student loans will go away. Your hand skills will com-. If you want to do it, it's there to do it and Don't be closed minded. I know when I was in dental school. So many doctors for like, Oh, don't look at DSO's don't put a DSL as many of the professors in the lower anti. DSL and it had me nervous to start at Aspen dental and I can't say that I made a better decision for myself. A place has helped me grow into the doctor that I wanted to become a leader that I didn't even know that I was going to be and has afforded me so many opportunities and dentistry is a great profession or strobe security you're going to be okay it's all going to be okay and do you have any? Programs for student loans I mean if they stay with certain on time. There in so high need areas where again markets they're having a hard time finding providers. There are some student loan incentives and then also Aspen Dental has program with so-fi for student loan. Refinancing and lower interest rates and things like that. So they're definitely options out there. I just want to end with one short sustained rant, and that is it's market segmentation. Sometimes, markets are on price like. Cadillac sells a lease amount of cars lower the price, pontiac old Buick but you sell the most Chevys and look at housing live anywhere from a van down by the river to an apartment, a trailer one bedroom to bet injure veteran the the the person who decides who's good and bad is a consumer dentistry does not start until a consumer pulls out a dollar hands it to a dentist. Says, will you help me so that consumer gave birth the dentistry it's not they're not our patients. We're lucky to serve them, and then as far as fear it's the same thing. The best analogy is childbirth So many dentists and lawyers physicians are so smart. They over analyze everything and then they get blindsided in risk the there's no good time to have a kid. Are you kidding me? Having. A live human twenty, four hours, seven days a week that a walkout in the middle of the street and take a nap crazy I knew that. So I made my four boys in sixty months. I mean I knew the best time to have my four boys was four years ago not four years from now when I decided I would have boys I our children I came from a big family I wanted four and I wanted them all out of diapers when I decided I, wanted to four boys I wanted to all diapers But. That's how it works. So everyone else was delaying delaying delaying just quit and I. It's like it's like when you learn how to swim, you can walk around the swimming pool for five years dipping your toe in. Are you going to me might older sisters or nuns just threw in the deep end and I almost drowned? So you know if you're thinking about having kids thinking about it have them right now to stop what you're doing make a kid and then it'll be done and then five years from now. You're glad you're here. So you're afraid of molar root canals you're unemployed go to aspen dental. Jobs Dot com get a job, and of course, you're afraid of a muller you've only done. Tan are hundred I don't think you're even good at mole or anything in dentistry until you've had thousand. So you know the best way to thousand go work in a really busy place where you can do a thousand fillings and half the time as a slow place that'll take you know twice a year. So I know you guys got patients you're pulled their text me saying they got patients shop. So thank you so much for coming on the show was an honor to podcast you Katie. Ashley Raleigh. Thank you so much. I was an honor they do.

Aspen Dr Katie Dennis partner DSO North Carolina Florida United States Ashley Walmart America Katie Ashley Aspen Dental Bob Fontana Aspen Dental New Orleans Google Aspen Andrew Media Katie Hill
Infiltrate the Business World in the Name of ArtNoah Scalin

The Thriving Artist

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Infiltrate the Business World in the Name of ArtNoah Scalin

"And welcome to thriving artist podcast and educational feature of the Clark Feelings Fund for Visual Artists. The Clark healings fund exists to provide business trading and entrepreneurial learning to visual artists to turn working artists into thriving artists lookout Virginia. We're coming your way. Our forth boots on the ground event of the year the H F Virginia Art Business in his conference has just been announced for November. Seventh through ninth. You'll spend three days with artists from all over the country intent on accelerating their careers that includes two days of Art Business Trading designed assigned to get your career to the next level and the day of direct engagement with art industry leaders to envision how everyone in the industry can thrive go to Clark Feelings Fund Dot Org Slash Conference is to register for your all access badge. That's Clark Feelings Fund Dot Org Slash Conference now. Our guest today is no EST gala. Noah's an artist based in Richmond. Virginia Virginia who sculpture installation and photography uses everyday items reassembled in new contexts. Imagine for example. A collage made entirely of kids stickers. That show civil rights activists Ruby bridges his in one thousand nine hundred sixty leaving her school accompanied by federal. Marshals Noah did a major installation in times square this winter and his working with the Krause Gallery in New York City. He's also a corporate consultant at another limited rebellion with his sister Mica. Scaling the firm specializes in using art and creativity in leadership development and clients include Coke General Electric and in to to it Noah was the first artisan residence at the Virginia Commonwealth University School of Business and is now an adjunct professor. There no welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Well it's really good to have you here and I wanna ask you. I know L.. Let's talk for a minute about Virginia because of course we're bringing C. H.. Art Business Conference near this fall. So naturally curious. You're based in Virginia. But you work internationally. Is it important to stay connected locally if if so why oh yeah absolutely. I grew up in Richmond and I moved to New York City when I went to college and I stayed up there for work but when I decided to start my own business as a creative professional I moved back here to Richmond and the reason was multiple But part of it is that a smaller community like this is a place. That really is a great Incubator I would say place where things are more affordable. It's easier to connect connects with people to get publicity to make things happen and it's something that allowed me to grow my business. Where if I was in New York City where I've been living been way more difficult because they're pretty risky thing that I was doing to start my own company at the time I like it? So there's some of the benefits of being an artist not being based in a big city. Is there a downside as well. I guess so but but I really haven't I guess I haven't found it. I mean I think you could be like well. There aren't the biggest galleries. Aren't the you know the major things that are that you could have access to but but frankly I just found that that I get a lot more done. I've got access to stays access to the press You know if i WanNa make something happen I can make it happen. Oh Man N no es some New Yorker you are you should supposed to say the BAGELS. There's no bagels. Where are you going to get back up to New York one month and I make sure I get a Bagel and a slice there you go exactly earliest the bagels and the pizza? I was going there next. Like bagels. Him It'd be like all right fine. Where's where's the pizza then? It's about a balance to like I. If I'd never went back to New York I'd be pretty sad but I go there on a regular basis for work and so it allows me to have that you know reminder what I like about it and also reminder about why. I'm glad I don't drink. Well let's get to touch the blarney stone anyway so let me ask you this What what's happening in the art world in Virginia that you think people should know about well I mean? I can't speak for all in Virginia but Richmond is the capital city. And it's a really amazing place. There's a great art. Seems been driving for a long time but in the last twenty years it's just really loaded. We have a beautiful beautiful. I Friday's a lot of people. Come out to Virginia. Museum of Fine Arts has an incredible collection. Bring the mazing shows. We're about to get candy. Widely sculpture installed right outside because really exciting We've got the regime history and culture. That was you know sort of more of a state kind of old stuff museum. That wasn't very exciting and now they've really taking things to another level. The invited a bunch of other artists coming to paint murals inside the museum as part of an exhibition The Valentine's EUM and other places of the History Museum. That could seem kind of boring. French has really been doing progressive work and really making some exciting things. So there's just a lot of opportunities to to see our to make our show Arthur's rates Opportunities people learn about art are and it's and it's a an art school which I think is issues in the center of town The Art School is the top one top ranked in the country and so constantly bringing in great teachers and also Training great students and letting them out into the city so the city just really whether or not everyone recognizes that. I think we've got a lot more. People recognize the creative city that is really for the East Coast. Really how spot now you know you went. We're talking about an art school but the unless which topics for a second to Business Schools I mean Greg me if I'm wrong but I don't think many business schools have artists in residence so I'm curious. How did that come about at Virginia Commonwealth University? Yeah well I like to say that I was not only was the first artist in residence at the school of business but possibly the first artist Addison resonance at any school of business anywhere or at least in the United States. There may be one other out there. I haven't heard about it What happened is that a few years ago? The school realized that creativity creativity was one of the principles that they needed to be teaching their students to be successful in business. And that's a pretty radical idea but also backed up by a lot of data and what happened is is that I've been talking to them about a variety of things because of the work I've been doing had already been doing for years as a consultant in the corporate world as an artist and that's also pretty rare and so talking to them some of the people the leadership there about that and they came around and said hey you know this is one of our pillars. We WanNA start this program. We'd love to do an artist in residence. We'd like you the very very first one and I said Yeah. This is perfect for me. I love this idea. I I taught for years and in the school of the arts was comfortable in that setting but you know school of business I was like I didn't go to business. I WanNa know anything about this but I do know about how the artists skill set is valuable in business. So yeah let's do this and It was great because because it was the first time I was able to go in and and bring all this stuff I already had learned in this methodology that my company already developed and my sister and I ended up and bring that to them and it was a really great fit that allow them to show right away the value of bringing artists into business settings and yeah. It was terrific. See your work background. was more visual the art and not so much background in the corporate world. Who have got that right? Yeah I studied theater design and then when I got to switch to graphic design and I work for other folks from trip years doing that and I started my own company. Doing that will tell us a little bit about Another limited rebellion. I interesting name. But I'm wondering what inspired you in your system system Ikea Sister Mike is to develop the company tour so the company originally was formed as my own graphic design studio. So when I got up school I started freelancing and it created a company to do that and after about six years of working for other people. I shifted to running my business fulltime. which is when I made the shift from New York? Back to Richmond So the company for a long time was just that designed from and then I just done that work for a long enough time. There's about a dozen years when I burned out and I was not as interested in sorta felt stuck in my career and I ended up doing this project called skull a day where I got myself out of my creative Rut and inspiring and the one of the really strange outcomes from that was that I I started getting asked to talk to businesses about my creative practice and that turned into me doing a side job initially of going and doing these Keno talking with consulting and all of a sudden I found myself. You know really enjoying that work and my sister who was working in marketing in New York. She was working for different media companies. She decided she wanted to get out of that. and run a business and so she came to me and said hey he like doing this. I want to take home of a business here. How can we work together? Can I developed developed a concept and I said absolutely and so we created a partnership took my existing company and shifted it over to being consultancy. So we're talking with Noah's Kaelin Gaylon about His firm another limited rebellion which specializes in using art and creativity in leadership development. Noah had a corporation decide. I they need an artist to come in and work with their staff. Good question so it usually starts with a person of vision within the company. Somebody who has recognized the activity is one of the top skills that leadership needs to survive the fourth industrial revolution. This is people who are saying. Hey we need constant innovation. These are people who you're saying there's massive disruption in industry We've been running business a long way this this one way and now things have changed so much that we've gotta find new direction. Usually they've got great rate really successful people working for them but those people weren't trained to respond to the new situation there in so they're basically going. Gee there's a set of skills they're missing So usually there's somebody there who's sort of going we need something and then as is the case with a lot of business it's word of mouth and so people say. Hey you know what you gotTa Talk. That'd be bad. They really changed our minds about reach and be works And that's what we got the call so I think any of us that have had a corporate background even even if it was sort of a cursory relationship we've been there for a couple of years We have an idea of what we think. Professional Development looks like and some people think it's a fun way to get out of work and some people think oh no And it's kind of dreaded in other people got something valuable but but clueless what would it day of professional development. Look like at Koker into it when you and your team get their is it different from the stereotypical and mostly perhaps dreaded professional development like a high ropes or a an Improv. Of course. Yeah well I think a lot of those courses that when when it's more of this sort of funky unusual thing it's usually presented this team building unless about leadership development awesome and so one of the things we do to distinguish ourselves is the place where in is usually reaching people a different tier and with different Goal in mind and so that type of development professionals. It's actually usually very dry. It's a lot of times people coming in and lecturing For long periods of time people Taking sort of personality tests and doing all this very intensive of work And so we're usually the most unusual thing that comes into that space a lot of times when artists are creative person gets brought into business setting. They're really being brought into the show showoff their talent and look at how fun this the cool thing. Maybe they're having a happy hour and you're GonNa play your guitar. You're GONNA do your thing and yes I would say. improbably is sort of category. That's in the most embraced or storytelling But generally that you know outside of that especially with visual artists or bring other The skills to the table able they're not really utilized for their the set of tools. They have it's more about sort of an appreciating people appreciating What they can do? But it doesn't always translate into this leadership skill development and that's really where we reside So to to say where we come in and we do this. It's more about presenting something really unusual unusual. And what the benefit to that is that people do come in with a preconceived notion about what they're going to get these experiences and there's a lot of crossed arms in some cases or people who are ready to check out or or or just this fun three and they're gonNa have just off or something and and They find out pretty quickly. That's not the case. And because we're presenting such an unusual story people apple pay attention and we usually can get in their heads and sort of plants and see that they've needed to here for a while and maybe the opportunities start seeing things differently and behave would love to be a fly on the wall. In those settings you know having spent a more than a decade in fortune five hundred life. Yeah I think what I'm hearing you say is you're you're not competing with the SCAVENGER hunt. You're competing with the bullets of powerpoint. Louis I like that because it's a low bar I mean you know it doesn't take much to do better than the bullets of a powerpoint But if but it takes a lot to sort of push it the other way and And make it actually interesting instead in just a little bit better so let me ask you about the tangible side of it. Then the companies you work with see measurable results and if so what are the metrics and what are are they hoping to achieve so I appreciate you asked. Obviously you do have that corporate background because we get asked all the time about this. And what's important. Is that one of the talks. I do is actually called the Roi of creativity. And what. I've talked to people about it. Is that you know business wants to do this. Measurement and these numbers and wants to be like what's the benefit of this and it's really a narrow view of what we're talking about and so what we generally do have people think bigger and say creativity. Isn't this thing you sprinkle on at the end but like you know the sprinkled hold on top of the cake that you don't really need but it kind of makes it look nice. Creativity in terms of the work. We're doing his creative culture. And ultimately the individual development this is what allows the company to survive the next five years. And so if you're going to get a twenty percent increase you know GonNa make more money off. This is GonNa be this better than you're not. You're missing the bigger picture which is You know do you WANNA be. Do you want to still exist as a company or not because the bedrock a and maybe that's what I always say the ground that sort of soil That you need. HBO Able to create consistent innovations creativity. And that's something that people have discounted the business world And so I think that's where they come to it with that sort of. Give me some numbers here so I can prove it to my boss us what we really needed people experiencing so that they can go. Wow I now come at things differently. I know that's GonNa Change outcome but it's long term change because we're talking about create culture culture change. It doesn't happen in a year. You know it happens over many which is a tough sell for people you know? If you're trying to say fire services this is they WANNA see immediate results So mostly we show people. The success of what we've been doing in terms of large corporations like g bringing back year after year your or because they see the benefit internally the work we do and that's a good selling point for people to say okay. This is valuable you know. I As you you say that I can't help but picture one or two people. I mean. It doesn't have to go very far you. Can you know hop on over to DC on the train and stare at the White House and get this kind of thing. But I I've worked with people who if it wasn't a an immediate you know sort of hand to mouth number That they could get their head around. If it didn't immediately bring up the close rate of the guys on the phone then it it wasn't a value and the I think at that point. I wonder whether you drop the prospective client or or You you decide that you're not working with a person of enough stature. A high enough level that they can understand the the significance of economic uncertainty the impact of it on a company and as you sort of describe it the need to have creative give solutions already sort of in the pipelines. Doing by the time you reach Your next rough patch where where that uncertainty becomes unbearable arable. Yeah no I mean you nailed it on the head. I mean we. We have to work like a leadership position. We have to have people that are high enough up. Who get this? Bring get the value and sometimes we encounter people lower down. We love what you do. We want to bring you in. But they can't sell it up and when we come in and talk to an audience. That's not the right audience that we could see it right away that they're like this sounds great but we don't have buy in from that if you don't buy from leadership and it's not gonNA work So say it's top down bottom up both but you gotTa have the top for sure you're You can't just bring it in from the bottom level and try to push it up so it's not for everybody But it is for the smart companies. Frankly who will go all right. You know this is the future and when I talked to him about is sustainable innovation and they and the people that need that and know what that is. They're on board. I love that. That's a good point point for everyone selling in a B. Two B. capacity In the first place who you have to have on board but it also reminds me of This book by Earl j called the God players where they were talking about you know we tend to identify the areas of pride and accompanied pride creates all the bottlenecks pride creates all the inefficiencies efficiencies. And where a company is too prideful to let go of its pride They go out of existence and the ones that The ones that are smart They open up And they only deal with with with businesses that are on the ropes and now they have some kind of problems they have a pretty good track record of saying his consulting firm does pretty good track record. I think it's based in Norway saying You know Those companies that Listen to us and took her advice. You're still here and those that didn't art so I love. I love the idea that it smart people that it it means that you're sort of I think the takeaway for an artist is no. You're going after and know who isn't going to be a fit. I know who you have to win to make it happen. Yes and I mean to affair I get. It's hard and I ran my own company for a long time. That's pretty for long time. And when you're when you're desperate for work it's really hard to say no or to see these opportunities go by. Hi what can I do differently. How can I capture them and to be at a level where you can trust what you do not your what you offer is valuable and and hold out for the right? People is always worth it because you make the space that allows the big stuff to come in rather than filling it with stuff. That's not good well and from a sales strategy standpoint You know one of the key. Practice areas that work with artists on tend to spend ninety percent of your sales activities selling the most resistant customers versus The customers is that Are Really more fetter the easier sale. Sometimes I don't mean that there's not still a cell cycle. You don't have to do the work but I mean you know sometimes The ones that don't get that aren't a fit. Your desperation doesn't help. It just creates more work at who in drains the company but you know To switch gears a little bit you and Mica Mica have trained. Twelve artists for the speaker's bureau And part of the training was about learning to talk about their work which always comes up in our sales strategy conversations conversations at Gawky Leagues and we have artists of course as a primary audience. That are actually listening. Right now How can they talk more effectively about their at work or is that too broad a question? Well I guess I can talk about to our experience doing that. So one of the things that happened right was that I had a lot of success talking about my story and sharing that and we realized we were hitting a point where we needed more artists who the available for. Follow up or additional gigs or gigs. Where I was already booked and it's something we discovered quickly? You know there's artists get all the all the time to speak about their work but they haven't been trained to do that and the language that we use as artists In a school setting or or with you know with other artists is different than what you need to use a business setting and so first of all understanding about audience that you're talking to what. What are they looking to learn? So how can we make connections between what we've learned what they are trying to develop within themselves. There's tons to connect I mean that's the bonus that they're really desperate for what we've got. I'm the reason that my company is doing well because we've basically realized that artists were taught to be innovative in school. and that's the skills that we've got honed and businesspeople haven't and so there's this great exchange now that we're able to do But they've got to be able to hear it and so if you come in and start really getting down to details that I don't mean anything to them and they confuse them right. You've lost that audience. And so what are the you know the first of all they don't feel like they can do stuff at all. So you know you're starting off with something that they feel very uncomfortable with and that can be hard to get through to people who feel like this is not for me and so part of it is just sort of finding that point connection. How are we the same? What do we have in common? What are the things the familiar earlier? Yes I'm telling you about this kind of art but what about that. Process was challenging. What did I learn? People WanNA learn that and they're happy you know. This is why people watch videos of all kinds of stuff go online of just people talking about their process is interesting people and a lot of times we forget that and we just want to talk about our success for just show our work and that's really not as important as the leading people in. Yeah I really liked that. You know we spend a lot of time talking there's a course In the digital campus is called sales mentality conversations in culture and the idea of finding common ground finding the point that we share the air and sort of getting aligned with a shared bigger vision of the world or of our objectives. I don't think there's a way to sell without it really. There's a way to sorta talk somebody into something but I don't think there's a way to sell effectively consistently in honorably and so We spent quite a bit of time on that. I WANNA Switch switch gears as we go into the second segment of the show and Ask you a little bit about creativity as a four because we're starting to see this as a trend you know. We're starting to see see that political and business groups and Civic and community groups are pulling artists onto boards and pulling them into discussions Russians that you know traditionally at least for the last Twenty thirty years. They've been left out of or not specifically included and we're even seeing a change in the commercial world where fashion designers are bringing artists. Droves and We're seeing that you know people turn to artists because either they believe they have a different mindset or at different different perspective or They just function a different way in response to problems and all of that is exciting. But you've said that creativity is not the is doing. It's the flower. Tell me what that means. And is that a case that you have to make to corporate clients. I think it is a case but we you have to make in the corporate world that You know even people who are on board still push back a bit about creativity is that wacky thing. And it's that thing that that you know isn't really necessarily Syrian. Can we can sort of let it go. And and maybe it's only for certain people maybe only certain people can do it and so generally my first engagement with any organization. Asia is getting people on the same page Explaining some new language and talking about the real value of it because once people get that creativity is a fundamentally delete human trait that everyone has the capacity for. It's not unique to artists and be. It's one hundred percent necessary if you're going to move forward and deal with the challenges of the day and the challenges that are only going to grow as an organization and once people get that those two pieces than we can move forward So really what I'm doing is AH sharing. The artists story artists as creative individuals and who use their creativity Very well on a consistent basis but not as the owners of creativity and you know there's an important thing to distinguish for those folks in the business world that you know we're not I am asking you to engage in some of the art tools and art skills but I'm not asking them to necessarily certainly become artists they can but that's not what this is about. I want them to learn from our practices. Why and how to do this? Work and how to develop that creativity within themselves in service of the success in their work but also personally as well I mean we. You know our work as always a mixture of those two ultimately there's a lot of personal development going on in this organization. It's about belt what we do. So is there a recipe for creativity. Something that we can standardize and at maybe not in the sense of cooking and yet innately into our DNA but perhaps to illicit or bring it out. Yeah I mean fundamentally we have a we have a model with Mike Our Company that we say okay. Basically creativity is a practice. Not There simple concept that people can grasp and we can talk about that. Hey if we accepted is not a talent but a skill you can develop Olympic and from wherever you're at you have capacity. We know this from human history that there's within all of us this the seat of creativity we can grow it from where we are to wherever else we need. If the you may not have a propensity for drawing or dancing or making music but that doesn't matter this is a different thing and the way that you develop it is like any other skill you practice it and so we basically introduced people to very basic exercises and we have to do it. Repetitively iterative I always say creativity is not a bone muscle confusing. I say I don't have a creative bone in my body and so I say don't worry about it right. You Got Muscles. This is what we're talking about and you you get it like people get like. Gee I haven't gone to the gym so oh I don't feel I get why I'm not strong and I you know I know what I need to do to do that. And so we want people to feel the same way about creativity that you shouldn't feel bad if you don't feel creative or feel absolute support But even if you do like here we are talking to artists you know. I was talking about the Olympics. You know that like an Olympic medalist isn't you you know somebody who's just the top of their game doesn't stop practicing. They're not like hey now that I'm good at this. I don't need to ever go swimming again. Let the weight again no. They're they're doing it more and so artists similarly we encounter people who are like well you know this is for the business people like no. It's really for everybody because I I as an artist learned it by doing it and discovering the one I got stuck I needed need to go back to the gym and do my creative workout as well. You know. It's really intense in school but once you're out in the working world most jobs don't give you a chance to really develop. You're you're you're expected. Did they bring to the table. And how they're and even though in the business world when they're asking quick retreats they're not training them. They're just going all right. Start doing this be creative creative problems all and and like I don't know how to do that are not good about and it's not fair you know. I was listening to the democratic debates last night and they were talking about it was Mayor de Blasio. Actually that A spoke up sort of toward the end and said look we have. We have to correct something here. We have a culture that believes the wrong thing You've the rust belt jobs. The manufacturing industrial jobs have gone away are are still going away are largely going to go away but Immigrants didn't do that to you Large corporations did they exported the jobs And then the the other beat that was sort of Missing there is that many of them are going away anyway because of automated blue so ultimately automation. It's it's inevitable you can't stop it. You can't ask us to rollback science but but all automation is ultimately going to ensure that even if the job is local and not exported voted. It still goes away. So you have a video on The another limited rebellion site that deals with creative professional's having something uniquely human to offer that can't be replaced by automation and not to single out a creative professional's alone I think that's potentially true everywhere. There are are restaurants. I go to where I'd rather have an automated server and automated chef But I try not to eat at those places they have yelp ratings of under three and I you know at most is to the places I go. I'm really glad there's human beings involved so Tell me what is that uniquely human thing that credit professionals nationals offer. And do you think People are ready to hear about it because to your point right like anybody in any industry right now is seeing some form of automation coming into play And certainly with advances in a I it's going to be you know a entirely different world. We live in very soon. Science fiction is becoming fact very quickly and and it can be really scary. I mean there's articles I've read that we're like half of all jobs. It'd be gone in twenty years in forty years. Every job that exist today will be gone. That's the scary depressing version. I think it doesn't happen. Be Bad because it can be that all. Those jobs are replaced by John's. We've never even imagined but certainly the job that are gonNA go last. They're going to be the ones that require people to Create a problem solving come up with unique new ideas. Computers can spit out these things but even when they do when they're using automation a nation. I creating music. There's still a human having making decisions about aesthetics in about You know the thing that that stands out in some way that's worth deciphering from that work here is doing doing I've read about computers writing novels in the future and I'm sure to some degree it'll happen So that that can be very scary but again what makes us human. What is it about us? That's unique and that's our storytelling. Ability our ability to create unexpected connections between things. It's not about the logical stuff it's not about the numbers it's not about the linear stuff stuff. It's a non linear stuff and that's the magic of our brain but just you know we can pull two completely random things they put them together and like you said you know stickers and Ruby bridges I don't you know I don't think computers and coming up with that anytime soon. Let me ask you one more question. We'll we'll move onto the final segment of the show I wonder do you. I think there's something that people need to do to get sort of culturally ready for both the prevailing rates of automation but also Oh for the resilience of the creative professional in the face of it. I'm not sure if I I know the answer to that question exactly I will. I'd say that from the work. I'm doing what I'm seeing that we need to and this was you were bringing up some cultural issue right. which is that America especially D has devalued artists and and certainly art education especially in The you know primary education and we see with the problems of stem being something that people focused on and now we're getting interested in and around steam adding a arts to it but it's still not prioritize and for me to see it in the business world here's the people that are successful executives going. Gee we really need these skills and so for me to watch that go back right okay. I'm GonNa teach it in college but then it needs to be taught him high school. He's got middle school and needs to be taught elementary school so really. It's about like parents thinking about their children's success in the future and saying we've got advocate for these kids to get you know our classes again. There's a great book drawing on the right side of the brain and the author talks about this in the introduction that you know learning to draw right now is is sort of this sort of bonus. Honest that some people are encouraged especially the again there's sort of penalty for it But she's saying you know it's like we would never teach reading the way we teach drawing we'd be like feel like this. I don't look in the book. Is that interesting now but never mind right you really learn to read necessity but also the reason you learn. Math is not because they're going to be a mathematician and the reason you're are does not because we're going to be an artist because of how it creates a neural pathways. How you think and this form of thinking is unique and special and different and so what but I love seeing these businesses? That do a lot of power recognizing and I'm hoping they'll use that power advocate certainly for an shift our educational system but everybody needs to be doing amount. Every arts organization already is to some capacity but having it be seen as valued outside of the art world Israeli we're talking with Noah scaling of another limited rebellion. And No. I can't help but feel like Somewhere there's a J Evans Pritchard is saying no you can measure poetry. I'm telling you there's a graph for that But it any case I want to ask you. You know like many professional artists. You have have more than one skillset. So you're also back in your own studio as I understand it and applying your creativity to your own art career is that that's so and if so what is that like I am and I. I often tell people there's event diagram in my head about sort of my own success in my life and that's what I'm trying to have these two circles one of which is CONSULTING FLASH TEACHING EDUCATING IN SOME CAPACITY as one circle that aren't making another circle and my goal is to push those two together together overlap as much as possible and so our company that we created is is done in service of teaching these things other people but also supporting our ability artists to continue making art because really the insights we've discovered and share it people come from our own process and we want to continue to practice that and grow our own abilities and then in terms. You're back out with the organizations we work with. So it's a it's a it's a continual give and take or Boris Right. It's going around and round But that's really sort of what we were very very intentionally doing. So what I love is being able to retirees art making and my own discovery process and practice and getting to a different level. Because there's those new discoveries are things that are palatable for me as long as when I showed them so. I'm curious do you. Do you think there are skills from your consulting career that Carry over and help you with your own work or instead are there. Areas Rea- actually have to compartmentalize. I think I think a little the boat right. I think that it can be very easy. I'm the type of person who likes to check boxes and get things done. and which means I tend to prioritize to wrong stuff because the big stuff is is harder and takes longer and so oh I can spend a day doing email not get anything done on creative work because I'm it's a sort of quick satisfaction endorphin his So there's there's that tendency tenancy you know to be recognized like I've got to really be careful about this because I run a business so I need to. You know prioritize dot work But not let it overtake and so I've been very careful about scheduling and things only these days. These hours this is when this work gets done But conversely the work I've done a corporate consultant is what's allowed me to codify things. It doesn't artists and then in terms apply more rigorously and in Intentionally and that's really been interesting. 'cause I can now say hey on frustrated or stuck here I'll use the skills that I learned my sister and I always like Oh right. We should apply these principles. We teach people all the all the time but you know it can. You can easily forget five to yourself. So it's great to go. Oh of course it works. Let's use it for ourselves and then find success from it is really great where they're certain pivotal decisions that have helped helped build your career. I mean you know obviously skull a day would be the big thing. Because that's what really transformed me. I'd always been an artist. My the sister and my parents are artists. We been around the art world. The done creative work. Our whole lives So it's really something. That is is innate to us and I actually you know what I just lost my train of thought. What was the question again? I'm sorry well I'm asking. And I I guess I should have better characterized it. I knew As I was inventing that question on the fly was doing a good job. Yeah so so we both lost it. So it's hot. I know it's hotter Virginia. But on a New York Ed Noah's just sitting here but that's all right anyway for artists wherever you are. I hope you're cooler than both of us. So we have to turn off our air conditioners. She can hear them Yatra. So I'm asking if there were some pivotal business decisions more specifically That helped you build your art career. His business decisions. This is something I feel like I'm going to need to think on I guess what the point I was trying to make though is that I did this project where really I felt extremely stuck in my creative practice in my business I've plateaued and and so I did this thing. That was very random to make art daily for myself. It seems like the most left-field thing that wouldn't wouldn't directly give me the benefits. I needed from financial standpoint from us from the goals I had in my life and it one hundred percent achieve that and then achieve like a thousand percent sent more other stuff and so it's one of those things where it's like trusting your and doing this thing that was purely about expressing myself with so much more beneficial than if I had tried to be more intentional and some other very prescribed way that was like reading this business book following this plan It's not to say that there weren't other things I've done later in terms of just being being like it'd be really rigorous about getting contracts and make sure that people you know you follow up people and respond to emails quickly or whenever all that's true but if you want some of the bigger more profound thing it was that you know I had this crazy idea and I follow through on it and it was the work that I did on that idea that gave me all these other opportunities So that's a tough one when you think about all the time when people put up. Looks like I'm successful. And here's my success story that it's impossible to to to replicate their story as much as when I share mind especially talked college students and you know they wanna hear about how to have success and get out of the school and and move forward with their dreams and to say like. There's no magic plan other than h trust your gut You know if you like something you're going to find an audience who likes the D- To practice being open into the things that happen to you because the opportunities are there. But are you creating your. Are you cultivating an acceptance. The random things that appear as as possible benefits pitch for you seeing them as negative. Like that's not what I wanted to do. That's not where I wanna go and missing really great opportunity because they can be extremely random And my path is very secure and then to be on the other side of it. I can look back in a straight line back to where I started but when I was facing those decisions it was infinite brandon. I think on one level there is a template for career success. But it's not the one everybody wants which is you gotTa know the right people or get written up in the New York Times? I think you know one of the the practice areas we have at the fund is called the career blueprint But it's about blueprinting your own personal career and while there are some commonalities between artists that have been successful. Hustle is partly about reverse engineering your goal and breaking down the life that you you want to have and even if nothing else happens which is not the experience we have but but even if nothing else happened that's a valuable exercise and I think along those lines what you've talked about Doing something funky and creative. That keeps you in your our creative space. Certainly something that. Your book on Creative Sprints Kind of deals with but it reminds me you know in my own area of art creation which is which is writing fiction. I did something similar. I called it nightly chops. You know it's kind of based on jazz but the idea was thirty stories in thirty days to make sure that I could express her. Show my chops and It was some work but man did it. Keep my head in the game. A really liked it. So what you're talking about at the at the more visceral level all is Making sure heads in the game and I I would say that is a prerequisite for for success is to have your head in the gay. Just like if you're a professional well If you were an NFL player. Sure but you know I think they talk about like the success in sports and you know when they make that basket or you get that gold. Like how many times did they try. And it didn't get it right. We don't count those and so you know that kind of practice like you did or I would I do what really you know what I was saying. Like just making more stuff and especially especially the process we use which is do something and reflect on it and share that with other people as the next step that that process especially making more things and putting more things in the world gives you more opportunities or -tunities just sheer numbers. You know if you want something they measure. That's what it is like the more you put out the more opportunities you get for something to come back and so it's more quantity over quality thing which can be terrifying to people because you know everybody. A lot of people are concerned about the quality. Certainly my corporate work. That's everybody's concerned and so to say. Hey yes but at least. We're talking about process us. We want to you. Want me to work on quantity. 'cause that's when it's going to give you more opportunity and so really. I guess we need the principle behind the work. I was doing my project and what I recommend people. What's true about sales as well There's a book I saw recently I don't plan to read it because I think I got the premise. Really quickly Off The jacket. Sorry to the publisher but It's called something like relentless prospecting and the point is the prize goes to the person that does a lot of it puts themselves out there and consistently gets exposed rosed because they put themselves out there They make the contacts the connections and the things that are necessary even if not every one of them even if not the majority of them hit The person that does it consistently Tends to land yet. But you know speaking of that You've got more than eleven thousand followers on instagram. And I'm curious about that has that I would. I WanNa ask you three questions. How did that happen? Has the platform lived up to the hype And DSL instantly or or sell directly on Instagram or Or is it for some other purpose. That helps your career a lot of questions. She's packed in there so it happened organically I kind of got a little bit late in the game and instagram. I was on a lot of other platforms for a long time but I really liked tau visual the medium was and I liked. You know that it's very much just about image and sharing certainly great for visual artist The audience grew because I was sharing. You know what I liked and they liked it too It but it really jumped in leaps and bounds when some people who are extremely popular as very very big sites would share some of my artwork and then immediately ought to get a giant after that which is daunting because those people expect to see more whatever they saw? And I'm just a very ECLECTIC Person when it comes to art work and even when I was sharing the platform has changed a a lot of years and so now definitely has more of a portfolio site than it was at one point when I was sharing things that interest me the stories it's taken on that place to get granular about it I I've done a little bit of direct sales on it. I really haven't created I just another time. Just focus on it. And it's a goal for me though to think about you know leveraging that audience there anyway so what can I do with them interested in my work they want to buy. But what's the price point that makes sense what the effort to make sense So I'M GONNA end up engaging with. Somebody's had them really. You're out That he's but in the short term. It's really just a portfolio It's out there all the time. Twenty seven doing the work for me. You know it used to be my my blog my website. It's like people don't go to those in the way that they discover stuff and I do get opportunity. Three people find my work that way and they had all this really cool commission you or did you come seek doc or whatever and it it it like a lot of other things Like publishing your work or anything else. It it gives you some validity that then gives you opportunities So there's there's definite value in it. I think it can be easily overvalued and you can spend too much time on it and so you WanNa be really careful with any social media or any marketing that like you're getting the benefit from the effort you put into it Because it can certainly quickly turned into a time suck and I've experienced that before where I've spent more time promoting than making and then suddenly I'm don't have another thing to promote because yeah I think that's right Wow that was good. You answered all the questions I I do think that sometimes people turned instagram into a distraction As a form of sort of avoidance behavior you know we'll find somebody who has a strategy to to sell to interior designers or something and you ask how many phone calls they made this week and the answer is none Yet but if you ask how many posts they put on instagram. The the answer is Oh. I have increased at a lot since we talked about it talked about selling designers. How many designers have you acted with and so be it can become kind of a a a way a placebo or or a panacea for for doing the work but on on on the other side of that some people are getting the exposure if they do it intelligently and are getting an are making sales so I'm I'm glad to hear that you're going to be investigating a strategic way to do it Related Topic you know. That's it's social media I WanNa ask you about PR Because from the list on your website it looks like you've been able to generate a steady amount of press about your art over the last ten years how did that come about Fairly organically again. I think I'm very intentional about marketing. I my work I mean it. Certainly when and I started doing shows I would send press releases a little more on the formal way. It's a little more informal now. I've seen a sort of a shift happening around that But you know telling people to write about your work or certainly I mean asking people but encouraging people to write and share your work as a good strategy because you I think people assume like well if they like it. They'll do that but people a Lotta Times. Assume that you've already got the success. If it looks like you haven't or you know you got what you want and so being very clear about asking for things is good And so certainly the beginning. I did a lot more of that and I shared I. Would you know if it was online site I would. I would intentionally sending the Lincoln. They'd leave right about this. I think you'll find it interesting. Didn't work every time but sometimes it would and then those a lot of times those people would turn into people who were calling me so then I post something new they go ahead and share it. I don't have to ask them And then of course if you're working with larger institutions organizations there hopefully doing doing some marketing work for you and using their press contacted. They're getting those opportunities but it's never doesn't mean you shouldn't do it yourself anyway. 'cause I've also experienced those situations situations where you assume. Well you're a big organization. You should be promoting this and they don't do a good job of it So marketing is always your job as well and you should never feel bad about house promoting the things you're doing I often tell people. Turn it around and think about what's what do you dislike. How how often somebody emailing you and your? Ah Hate hearing from this person. What's the right amount you're gonNA know about your own experience But it's generally more than you probably doing now is you could could be doing sort of following this thread on Marketing Channels As well as sales channels So we talked a little bit about social. We talk to about a publicity I WANNA ask you about The gallery as a sales channel and such a couple of questions before we wind down the show Number one you're working working with The Krause Gallery in New York. How does partnership with a gallery play into your overall business strategy You know as an artist. Yeah I think you have to think of Making money as an artist has sort of multi stream thing and so there's several different ways to do it one of which is gallery sales But it's interesting interesting because obviously when you're partnering with a Gallery Partnership Right they are investing in you and you are making a commitment to them. And they're giving them a large chunk of money from your sales but they also we're trying to develop an audience and understand what that audience needs are a lot reminded me a lot of being a designer when I was a graphic designer would sort of relationship you have with clients so it doesn't very specific relationship if it can be satisfying and worthwhile if you've got Find somebody who trust you and encourages you. And they see that they're getting sales and they like the work producing thing but it's definitely a thing you put time and effort into developing and it takes a lot of time to prepare shows a lot of work in the networks. It's there and if it doesn't sell it back or moving the next place and then you've got bodies the work you gotta move around Certainly a lot easier to have somebody commission you and make a piece and give it to them or to get a large-scale commission you know focus on Spend time focus on not getting paid ahead of time or at least partially ahead of time. That's a big deal So a gallery is a very specific thing But it's for me at least it's not the only ah like having some of that. It would also wants to that back that credibility showing galleries and getting crushed and getting people to see your work. That are just walking in is really a nice bonus. That's very different than a lot of other ways you can. I saw your work. Yeah I really like the The concept of multiple income streams. You know I ran into that in two thousand seven. The market crashed and The four hour workweek came out and You know people used to ask me the How do you have job security if you have so many different sort of lines of work because I I run multiple businesses in and do a lot of contracting and and I said well how do you have security of. It's all based on one job and only one guy writes you a check at the end. If things are tough he cut you loose for me. The security comes from multiple income streams so I think thinking about galleries in that context that they are not a panacea. They don't solve everything and fill all needs. And if you if you allow yourself to rest on that you're staking your career on one bet only. Yeah which would anybody knows ever played Bingo. You know you don't just cover up one a number come on you gotta you gotTa Hedge your bets so the idea of having other channels Seems Wise Yeah. Exactly I wanna ask you a A more On on the nose question there. What do you do for your own business that you won't hand over to a collaborator? Like a gallery. Even if it were possible it'd be more specific. Well you know some sometimes a gallery says I want to be the source. I WANNA run all your social media or I want to be. I WANNA be the controller and the owner of the email list I want to be the only website I want to shut down your website. We see this a lot with visual artists coming and saying look the gallery saying look exchange for giving it all over to us. We will do it all but you can't do any of it And you don't seem to have taken that tactic you seem to or or of applied that strategy you seem to have as you said made them one channel And one income stream. But you're very much in control troll of the other channels so are there aspects of your business operation as a visual artist Aside from your company that You just wouldn't handover to see you could but you wouldn't hand over to gallery. Oh Yeah I would say certainly for me. I mean it's the majority of the work right. I mean I'm really trusting them with this piece. I think it's a cost benefit analysis right. You're just GonNa say what do I get this gallery. Well they've got a cool group of people who spend money on art that I can't act US otherwise that's certain value. How much it's working? I sell through them. How much are they often? But they WANNA show my work. What what's the benefit there? I'm one of my losing in the process if I can't show anybody else in the World Gee I'm probably losing using some other big opportunities because I know I can develop some of those things myself so I I think it is like they. They're renting space and they've got a great audience less than so there's a certain value. Are you giving them exclusive access to some of my work but not all of this and I. That's going to be an individual decision for everybody but I think literally Arkansas where we just said which is that you know. Oh that's a gamble. That's a tough gamble and you know you'd Never WanNa put all your eggs in one basket and so yeah. I would never put anything that I felt even slightly uncomfortable in the control of my salary but I also have a great relationship where they're very loose and open ended about the way they work. They're not one of those guys like you know. Give us all this and I just got an email. That was some you know through instagram. Somebody said send us some pictures. I said okay. Well you know what this is And they were like you pay this much and then we do. This and I know you know sorry. That's not the process. I WANNA go through But that's just me knowing what I can do on my own and the value of that and certainly spending money to get sting of doing myself from this specific outlet is invaluable. I might there's somebody to do promotional marketing for me. But that's somebody who works for me you know. And that's a very different relationship describing it so differently than Some some of the emerging artists that tell us that every gallery has told them it's all or nothing That the only thing available is all or nothing and even some sort of A. Ah You know you're not going to work with any other galleries if If you don't accept that So and yet they're saying that that's mythology. I Yeah I don't know here's the crazy part like the gallery. World is also in turmoil and you know you look at some of the blue chips that are closing and going to Internet only and you know I mean. There's a lot of great little pop up galleries things happening now. But the people running those that I've encountered are very cool and very like just on the word we'll put it up put it and it's it's very laid back and so I I think what's hard right especially coming right out of school and I do remember being young and hungry and sort of taking anything or or considering that was that you know it can be very easy to fall prey to people. Who Sort of dangle this thing in front of you but the reality is like no success comes from from something that seems easy even like I'll give us all of this and we'll give you the facts? It's always hard work and if you don't think you got to do hard work to get like you know there's something there's something going Ultimately Okay and so I think the hardest thing is trusting the value of what you have and and respecting that. And if you do then you're probably not gonNA like fall prey or allow those people to try to manipulate. Let's really good advice So just winding down the show. I ask you a closing question. You know Noah you've done some pretty interesting projects you know you did Skull a day Which got the Webby Award? You've done a 'cause project anatomy me of war which are sculptures and prints that are across sections of guns with replicas of human organ inside made of burnt matches You've done Twenty seventeen sort of fun project in exhibit just for dogs called Documenta Documenta which You have a portrait in called the hand that feeds feeds this a portrait of the inventor of the dog biscuit done in dog biscuits As he have all of these ideas that Man They must be great selling thing points for the concept of creativity itself and in Your Business. line that is not your art business but when goals house or projects do you have on the horizon for the summer. What's next for you is because you know? It's here's why asked Noah you re referenced earlier earlier that people following your instagram sort of expect more of the same thing so if you're air supply and you do all out of Love I want your next twenty two songs to remind mind me of all out of love you know and and I don't want I don't definitely don't do something now with a mandolin or something like that or crickets. So I'm curious you don't abide by that you constantly Sort of break out of the shell. So so what shells are you gonNA break out of. Yeah it's hard to say I mean you know I think as an artist Another just human being right like I need Ah I WANNA live. As fully as possible. I wanted to have sort of a continuous new experience of life and really grasp the most I can and if I find myself just getting repetitive work I'm I'm not having that I I. I can continue to work in different media the same media over and over but I also like to constantly try new things and it's a gamble especially with an audience watching waiting for certain things. AH LOSE SOME PEOPLE BECAUSE I I don't keep producing the same work But it can't be about them it's gotta be about me and sort of having this experience of life and and making the world a better place As often as you know through every effort I can make whatever work I do That's just my own sort of goal of creating more joy and creating a better world So so to that end You know I've set goals for myself each year and I review them quarterly and and What been great is already surpassed the goals I except for the for the time and I think bigger and so? That's exciting so there's some you know I've got lots of project ideas. They've got note mostly having a time to get to them and finding the the funding to help pay for them and and so yeah I really. I guess exciting that I don't always know what's coming next because when I got opportunity for instance this show in Times Square. I made something that looks nothing nothing like anything else I'd made recently but I did that because I have the capacity to do that and I wanted to make the thing that was right for that experience So yeah I don't I have. I have like opportunities looming in terms of doing more. large-scale painting which I love doing it I'm not really known for so much and I'm I'm always cutting more of those opportunities And then I've got more opportunity to do more sculpture and more more sticker work in. Yeah I I don't know I want it all. Will I hope the The students in the Clark digital campus or those artists who've signed up for that heard what you said about making goals and checking them quarterly. I think that's fantastic. You've you've been listening to the thriving artist podcast and educational feature of the Clark Ealing's Fund for visual artists. If you've enjoyed this program be sure to subscribe to new episodes and review your experience on I tunes spotify or wherever you tune in for more information on Noah's work as an artist visit noahscatering that's no at se L. I. N. Dot Com and for his work as an art consultant visit another limited rebellion dot com for information on the Clark Feelings Fund. Visit Clark Fun. Dot Org to sponsor are learning programs with of an impact will gift of any size visit Clark feelings fund dot org slash. Donate with your gift of any size. We will continue to make inroads with this broadcast. Thank you for listening and thank you know it. It's been really great having you thank you I appreciate it too.

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The Staggering Weight Of Student Loan Debt

1A

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

The Staggering Weight Of Student Loan Debt

"This message comes from NPR sponsor indeed. If you're hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions then zero in on on your short list of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started at indeed dot com slash. NPR podcast this is one A. I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington parents. It's in their kids to college in hopes of giving them something valuable to get. Their adult lives off to a good start. Now degree is valuable but just how good is that start hi. My name is Alicia from Michigan. I don't think that my college degree was worth the cost. I'm over sixty thousand dollars in debt <hes> both with private and federal loans. This and I pay over seven hundred dollars a month towards that balance. Most of that is going towards interest. I wasn't able to find a job in my field as most required five to ten years of of experience. OJ Just don't have I still live in my inlaws basement and feel really saddled and stuck with this debt. Olivia like many of our younger listeners was less likely to say that I heard agree was worth the cost gone are the days when a generation of Americans built careers with the GI bill or when top tier schools like the University of California where tuition-free Shen free a degree is no longer a golden ticket to a sterling career. No wonder fewer students are vying for slots league schools or even bothering to get a degree at all all what is the best way to cope with the cost of college. How do you deal with debt like Libya's. And what does it take for your education to be worth it. Whatever worth it means joining us from. NPR in New York is Paul tough the author of the years that matter most how college makes or breaks us. He's he's also a contributing writer for the New York Times magazine Paul Welcome to One A. Thanks great to be joining us here. In studio is Michelle Single Terry. She writes a syndicated column the color of money for the Washington Post Michelle welcome back. Thank you add in Richmond Virginia Tracy. McMillan Cottam is an assistant professor of sociology at Virginia Commonwealth University. She's she's also the author of Lower Ed the troubling rise of for profit colleges in the new economy. Trust glad to have you back a happy to be here Michelle Single Terry. Let me start with you. Can you just paint a picture of what the problem looks like. I mean how much student debt are we talking about. In this country well the Federal Reserve the last <hes> <hes> a report from them student. Loan debt has reached just about a one point five trillion dollars now. When you look at the average you know it says about thirty thousand dollars but when you talk to individuals sort of anecdotally just like Livia they've got sixty seventy eighty thousand dollars both in federal in private loans and what happens is that is awful lot of money for families and students or once they graduate if they graduate to handle from their income especially starting out and so people are just smothering under student loan debt. I'm glad you mentioned that Michelle because we should bear in mind. We're not just talking about people who paid for an education and completed. That's right <hes> many people go to college <hes> take out the loan and don't finish for a number of reasons some of it family some of they run out of money and for African Americans and minorities it's more so the case that they will have the debt and no degree. Paul when listeners heard we were talking about this. We get a gigantic response. One particular message from emily in Cincinnati Kinda sums up the feelings of many of our younger listeners are millennial listeners in particular. Here's what Emily said. As of now I have three degrees. <hes> the first two were both <hes> bachelor's degrees that I obtained in five years. Sudan the majority of that came from government loans and private loans. I came from a generation well. I guess I can easily say I'm a millennial so we were told that you need to go to college in order to get a great paying job and then once graduating from college and looking for those great paying jobs we never I found them and so we were forced to live at home with our parents and the rest is textbook. Emily thank you for sharing your story with US Paul. What's your sense of. Why student debt is hitting this generation as hard as it is? I think for a couple of reasons one is that <hes> the message is that we've been giving to the young people that you do need college degree in order to <hes> get a decent paying job is mostly true and that doesn't mean that they're great paying jobs for people with college degrees but it means is there is very little opportunity for people who don't have <hes> who who after high school don't get any kind of credential <hes> so there is a lot of pressure. I think and potentially a lot of benefits to getting a degree but at the same time that this has been has become true <hes> the the public has been pulling back funding from higher education so in the last couple of decades as we cut <hes> public funding for higher education by an average of sixteen percent per student which is crazy at a moment when actually all the signs of the economy is that our young people the need more education so we've put more of the risk more of the burden onto young people at a moment when they genuinely do need more education you argue in your book Paul that Higher Education System as you kind of mentioned is deeply unfair on virtually every level at every step of the way. There's a barrier to entry. Why not just for poorer students but even for middle class students. Would you elaborate on that yeah. It was striking in my reporting how much that was true. I mean certainly commission concert part of it but they're not the only part in the institutions that are most highly selective the the you know the most famous and prestigious institutions out there there the air <hes> they are almost entirely dominated by students from the top economic quintile from the richest kids in the country. <HES> and low income and middle class students are much more likely to go to <hes> less selective institutions with lower graduation rates so and that fairness. You're right pervades. All of higher education passed to do with <hes> tuition cost has to do with test taking it has to do with <hes> sports in recruiting <hes> there are all kinds of barriers for low income and first generation college students who Wanna I've got a good education trustee maybe to build on that. I if you would help us understand the link between student debt and of course the rising costs of college contribute to this higher education system system. That overall has become so inequitable. I know that's a that's a big set of factors to unpack but could you release start us unpacking sure I think they are different levels of inequality as Paul elegantly points out so they're the inequalities in some ways to group those inequalities there the inequalities that prepare appear students differently for higher education and that's all that stuff that we read about <hes> these days as wealth inequality the income inequality that's inequalities in k through twelve health education so these are inequalities not just of access but of resource resources and then they're the inequalities between different types of institutions and so they are the more highly selective institutions as Paul points out the student debt crisis in cost just very different conversation for those institutions mainly because they have the power and prestige to select the students that need the least amount of resources so the students who have greater need ended up going to institutions that have fewer resources to help them meet those needs then we see inequalities in outcomes of getting an education whether one completes or not and that's one of those inequalities by the way some students are far less likely to complete any type of credential at any level than our other students but even if you make it through that Gauntlet litto ball the inequalities and you are one of the successful students who find themselves on the other side of higher education with credential the labor market and society doesn't entreat everybody's degree the same way for reasons that are not just about whether or not people are prepared but about what we value <hes> as a culture and society so the inequalities qualities or what we would call cumulative <hes> and they stem not just from changes in the rising cost of higher education which is certainly part of the equation but perhaps is not as significant as we sometimes talk about it. It really is all of those other intersecting social inequalities that are increasingly asking something of higher education that may not be possible given how little the public tends to be a concerned about helping to subsidize the cost of Higher Education Michelle. I WANNA make sure as we're going on Ford in this conversation. Obviously we're talking a lot about debt as it relates to. An education is debt a bad thing well now as you just set me up how is debt and inherently bad thing. I think it's a bad thing now I say that recognizing thing that we do take it onto by our home to get an education but it's bad it changed limits you and so I try to encourage parents to a not take on all this debt in students <hes> yes. You have to have a college education for miles. Most careers not all <hes> or paths of to get some you know income as an adult <hes> but the way we <hes> market college education now. <hes> is is a detriment of families. We gotta go go away. You gotta stay on campus. A lot of student loan debt half of it is room <hes> <hes> room and board and so we should be telling our kids. Hey Listen I. I'm sorry I don't have enough to send you away or let you stay on campus but let's let's look at the community college system. That's go to school for Community College for two years. Then transferred took fully <hes> for your university and then commute <hes> and so we we got to change the conversation there's two parts of this conversation this policy and the practical way that families have to deal with this debt but debt is bad debt is evil. You know how I feel about. It and I say it all the time. If debt was the person I was slapped in the mouth. Yes exactly right and that's how you have to due to try to not take us so much well. We're going to take a few more hits at this problem. As we continue with columnist Michelle Single Terry Author Paul toughened Professor Tracy McMillan Cottam and we'll get to some of your questions stories as well. I'm Joshua Johnson glad to be with you. You're listening to one A. From W. Amu and NPR support for this podcast and the following message come from Google from Connecticut to California from Mississippi to Minnesota. Millions of American businesses are using Google tools to grow online the grow with Google initiative support small businesses by providing free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching in all fifty states helping businesses get online connect with new customers and work more reproductively learn more at Google dot com slash grow. You probably know a lot about former vice president Joe Biden but what you might not know is how his faith was tested when his wife and daughter were killed in a car accident. God why I got really angry. Shouted out why me why would he do this to me. How can God let this Happen Biden tells that story and explains his run for the presidency in an exclusive interview with the NPR Politics Politics podcast subscribe. This is one A. I'm Joshua Johnson. We are discussing America's student debt crisis and what that means not just for higher education nation as a system but for today's generation of college students. I think we should talk about what we mean. When we asked whether college is worth it. Let me get to another other listener voicemail and then I'd love to get your sense of how we define the worth the value of education. Here's what Brad left in our inbox. My name is Brad and I'm from Denver and I just dropped my daughter off for her first year of college about ten days ago given a lot of thought about the value of a college education and while it's certainly only about learning and preparing for a career. I think the returns are far greater and broader than that. They're certainly gross intellectually actually and exploring intellectually but there's also the ability to grow personally to become more independent to live on your own to <music> a live around people with different backgrounds and different goals and different interests than you so. I don't think you can look at the value of college legitimization as purely financial. I think the returns are far greater than that breath. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. Let's work away around Paul. Let me start with you. What what do we mean when we talk about the worth the value of a college education. What makes a college education worth it? I think it's a complicated question and part of the reason is is exactly what that caller was saying that what we're talking about is mostly young people right at the end of adolescence and the beginning of adulthood going away from their families for the first first time. This is what whatever they're learning whatever they're paying. It is a transformative experience. It's an opportunity to to change and grow and that's what it feels like I think to most college students and so I think it's natural not to think of it in in economic and financial terms but I think what we're hearing from all of these <hes> listeners and callers that you also need to think about money and you need to make rational sensible decisions about money and when you look just at the economic data about the value of a college degree it. There's a lot of value to it. So what what economists call the college alleged wage premium the amount by which people with a college degree earned more than people without a college degree. It's very large right now and it's <hes> as large as it has ever been in American history so a college degree you know on the whole is worth it <hes> but I think Michelle is exactly right. We've got a US some some sensible economic thinking and financial thinking in deciding <hes> where to go whether to live at home what kind of degree to pursue there are some decisions I would say that involved at that that are not evil that are not wrong sometimes borrowing <hes> a certain amount of money to get a college degree is a great investment but there are other decisions. I think where it is clearly a mistake Michelle in terms of the value of education you know I want. I want you to speak specifically to the economics of it because I wonder what our criteria are for determining value. You know I went to the University of Miami which is a private nonprofit offit `institution spent a lot of money got deepen bed with a young woman named Sallie Mae who basically recently stopped calling me I if worst hookup of my whole life because she would speak to Josh please. I'm a show up on your job so I finally kicked her to the curb but I have since paid off my college college education. I graduated two thousand two. I was not able to really get a handle on my college finances until I got this job so basically it took me fourteen in years to get over the educational the financial piece but I got hired right out of college like I was able to get a job in college. That took me immediately in my career so you know I I kinda see all the sides. Um propelled me directly into a career in the one profession I wanted to do but I had to drag. This lead weights economically behind me for damn near as long as it took me to get out of grade school right and I bet you got that job not because of the university versity went to but I bet knowing a little bit about you that you were doing a lot of things in college like internships and training and working for the radio station am I am. I wrong I I. I didn't do an internship but that's just 'cause. I knocked on the door the local station till they hired me right just kind of like fought to get in right so they didn't. They didn't open that door. They didn't have a little people oldest. What college did you go to in any opened. People brought a drill just kind of made so this is what I tell my children. I have three children one to just finished her master's. None of them have debt or the we have debt but my conversation with my children. Was this going to college about getting a job. I am an African American can one who came from the inner city of Baltimore City. I don't have we did not have the luxury to say. Oh baby go to college so you can be waiting for good though you need to go to college college to get a job. That is the practical thing about most of Americans yes. I love what Brad said you know. I learned a lot in college but the factor matter matter is my number one goal for myself and my children was to get a job and it doesn't necessarily matter what university you go to if you have internships chips if you have Hudson which is what she had studies after studies show that children who were students who are <hes> <hes> gifted in terms of self promoting themselves going out there and getting interesting stuff. Those are the ones that succeed and it does. I I tell people all the time I worked for the Washington Post. One of the greatest newspapers the papers in the world. I grew up in inner city. Baltimore went to my state. College didn't have great. Sat scores but I had a great internships and that's what opened the doors for me and the person across the me went to Harvard loved him to death but we both got to the post at the very same time we talked about the value of getting a job of the the ability to get a Job Paul. I'd love to get your response to this voicemail from Thomas. Here's what Thomas Putting our inbox. This is Thomas Calling from Indianapolis Indiana. I have two college degrees and associate's degree from small junior college and I have a baccalaureate degree from a private college Milwaukee Indiana Anna. I am a registered nurse. I've been one for forty years. I changed jobs in two thousand nine I at that time. Chime was earning approximately fifty thousand dollars a year less than I'm earning now so over the course of ten years I my salary salary doubled and it was because I have a baccalaureate degree Thomas. Thanks very much for sharing your story with us. Paul a lot of businesses still use a lack of a degree as a way either weed people out for jobs or as an excuse to pay people less. I understand it in certain professions like say being a physician. You have to have have a degree and be board certified to be physician but what about in in other professions you know. I mean we're hiring here at one. A. And we've had a long conversation about whether you need to have a degree to be a journalist analyst. How do you see that discussion about whether people actually need degrees to be successful professionals. I think there are two sides to that question and one is sort of the philosophical side what what people really learn in college and is it necessary for them to do the kind of jobs that they WANNA do <hes> and I I'm actually sort of higher education skeptic on that level. I dropped out of college twice and didn't end up getting a B. A. and have had a career in journalism so oh I I started a long time ago when I think it might have been easier to do that than it is today <hes> but I'm definitely sympathetic to that idea but at the time I think we need to be realistic about the fact that you know. Most programs like one most <hes> jobs like the ones you're hiring for absolutely require a college degree so arguing that they shouldn't <hes> it doesn't help the young people who are applying for them. I mean I you know I think that what happens like I'm completely with Michelle on the idea that the reason you go to college is to get a job to get the skills that that will get you a job. The place where I'm not entirely in agreement with their is on whether reading waiting for Goodell could help you get a job <hes> because I do think I think there are some careers and professions where direct training is useful but in the knowledge economy it really strikes me that so much of what is happening <hes> at universities the way that young people are learning to analyze ideas to read argue <hes> to work with each other and teams all of that stuff <hes> sometimes happens when you're studying math sometimes times happens when you're studying <hes> waiting for Godot and all of that really does boil down to job skills Knowledge Economy Tracy. Let me get a comment about a for profit college college. Cj tweeted my husband attended a for profit college that closed with over ninety thousand dollars in debt nine zero thousand his school closed and he was given the option of erasing his student loan and not having a degree or keeping his degree and keeping the debt. How is this the fulfillment of promising future trusty. It isn't so the most dangerous was young. We talk about student loan debt. It is <hes> it is a problem as a social problem and political the problem. It is a problem for some students as opposed to other kinds of students. It is the biggest problem for those who have debt in no degree <hes> and and the students who are most likely to be in that position go to the least selective institutions and there is a high concentration of the students in the for profit college sector which is one of of the reasons why I say it is an example <hes> streaming sample of the trend lines that are reshaping our education and how we go to school and work and how we pay forward award and the extreme nature of the case is exemplified. They are in that story. One listener who chose to remain anonymous shared on our facebook page. I have of two hundred thousand dollars of debt from law school and Undergrad. I got a job that makes that number payable within ten years but I don't have the opportunity to do the kind of work that I want. It feels deeply wrong that my friends who had generational wealth have that freedom they can buy homes have children worked for or nonprofits. I can't afford to use my degree to do good or make the life that I wanted when we continue. I want to talk about ways to make a college education work. We brought up the idea of doing say two years at a community college which in some states just called a state college. Florida has renamed them for example and then going on to university. There's also the potential of making connections when your college like I did at Um what's the best way about it to save the most money we'll get some of your thoughts and more of your stories in stay sequels support for this podcast and the following message come from Uber Uber is committed to safety and to continuously raising raising the bar to help make for safer journeys for everyone all driver partners go through a multi step safety screen before their first trip including driving and criminal history checks and uber is introducing a brand new safety technology called ride check which detective a trip goes unusually off course and check in to provide support to learn more about Hubris commitment to safety visit Uber. Dot Com slash safety. Hey there it's Joshua. Thanks for listening to a podcast. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a rating that helps ups other people find the show and don't forget you can catch the news roundup at the end of every week incident. Nashville that shocked Latino community a computer designed to control the entire Italian economy. A Martian invasion in Ecuador is back with a brand new season. NPR SPANISH-LANGUAGE PODCAST will take you around Latin America to show you the fascinating strange and compelling stories of the region subscribe listen every Tuesday this week marks eighteen years since the nine eleven terror attacks and we'd love love your help with our conversation on Wednesday depending on who you are. The attacks are either an indelible memory or lesson in the history book. There are generations of kids today who have no living memory of nine eleven if you are too young to remember the attacks when they happened. What do they mean into you. If anything leave us a voicemail eight five five two three six one a one a now. Perhaps you the parent or the teacher of such a young person. How have you tried to relate to them. What nine eleven means how did that. Go tell us your story eight five five two three six one a one a or you can send us an audio file with our APP won a vox pop. You'll find one a vox pop. That's V. O. X. P. O. P. in the APP store and we'll share some of your stories Wednesday on a back now to our conversation in with Paul Tough Michelle Single Terry and Tracy McMillan Cottam. Let's get to some more of your comments and Paul. I'd like you to respond to this simple but difficult question from blue. Who tweeted whose fault is it are? The loans too easy to obtain is the interest rate too high. Do Students and families not understand that the money is debt that needs to be repaid is the cost of college to Hi Paul. How would you answer Lou. Whose fault is it well. I WanNa pick up on something that that doctor Cottam said which is that that we need to think of this question in in collective and social terms more than individual terms. Yes individuals can make better decisions about about college and about death and they sometimes are <hes> but the problem in the system already is that we as dot com shows in her book lower. Ed We have transferred so much of the risk and of the expense of higher education from <hes> the public where it more rightly belongs onto private individuals and that especially causes causes strain for individuals without a lot of family resources <hes> so that's where we need to think we need to think about the public funding of higher education what we're doing especially for young people who aren't particularly crazy about school when they got out of high school but still need some kind of credentials some kind of education to get the skills. They need to earn a living <hes>. That's where I think we need to put. More of our attention will entrust me when it comes to loans interest rates students and families borrowing it studies have shown that it's different for for profit borrowers when it comes to those two see your colleges for profit borrowers borrow differently than for nonprofits schools and they tend to default much more often is that right yes but for very similar reasons is just about the concentration of inequality at one end of the sector of higher education as opposed to the other but people are experienced in this broadly remarkably similar ways and so <hes> for to the callers question about like who is to blame which I think is a really honest impulse among us a you know you see this big complicated with might call l. A. Wicked problem and we all want a really simple straightforward answer <hes> and the tough thing about this. Is that even if you have done everything right if you have budgeted if you have deferred <hes> savings for your children to go to college if you're living at home if you chose the quote unquote right right major which don't get me started. There's a lot in that and if you do all of your internships and if you network if you do all of those stinks depending on how much you pay to do it it still may not be enough and there's no simple answer as to why but the simplest way I can't address it is this that we have made it profitable for students to fail out of school so student loan companies and private sector sector and venture capital makes money whether you succeed in college or not and so the student loan industry has basically turned US <hes> into from students transform desk from students into units of debt and Prophet and when you do that the entire incentive structure of higher education starts to fall L. Apart so yes it's interest rates and we should forgive I think student loan interest and we should have reasonable <hes> repayment methods for the principle of student loan debt but that's still will only shift the needle so much especially for the students who paid the most and those are the students who go low quality high costs institutions like four poppet the colleges in over-borrow Michelle. I'm glad that Professor Cottam brought up the best laid plans kind of going awry because NPR did some reporting on one of these programs that supposed was to forgive the student loans of public servants after a ten year period but I I can hear you. Roll Your eyes at that you just like. Did you hear that sound. y'All who listened you hit that little her looking up at the ceiling and burning a hole in nine. Hold on hold on hold your horse because let me just play a quick clip and then I will I will let you burn the room now because after after those ten years in this government program ninety nine percent of the people in the program got rejected it by the US Department of Education for that loan forgiveness. Here's Matthew Austin Matthew Austin's wife was a teacher rejected by the program then she applied to a program that was supposed hosted fix the rejection and that program rejected her to what sort of kafkaesque thing are we in here where apply for one thing. I'm told them denied for this and if I'm denied for this I should apply for another thing and then when I get to the second thing. I'm told that I haven't been denied for the first thing I mean I. I really just cross eyed reading these things Michelle I. I think it's interesting that there are these people who do what they believe is the right thing for the right reasons and even with all of that just because of the complexity of paying for college the best laid plans can still go very much awry. Oh my goodness so with the public service loan forgiveness what happens is that you have to pay a hundred and twenty payments basically <unk> over ten years on time but it has to be a certain type alone has to be directly from the government and it has to be an income based repayment plan so what happened is people were paying for ten years. They weren't in the right loan nor the right payment plan and a lot of the reasons why they what they weren't is because they got bad advice from their loan servicer or they just didn't know. Oh then we'd all the things about what you need to do to line it all up now. <hes> what happened was Congress. Lots of people started complaining and Congress's. Let's fix this so then that's when they came up with this new law that says if you were denied here's another program that you can apply to so that you can still get your loan forgiven if you paid it over at this time but to to qualify for that loan you had to be rejected from the first phone so people didn't know that so they apply for that and that's where all the came up but the but the point is this whole conversation is well whose fault it is. This is why hi this is going on. We made this promise to people and then we made it so complicated for them to figure out how to do it and they go along and you know human nature. Is You sign up for something something and you. Kinda SORTA forget it. You don't check it. You don't double check in. I'm a triple checker kind of person so I would have been every month probably double checking because that's just how I'm I'm wired but I understand how people felt through the cracks and there was a millions of dollars set aside for that so the Department of Education should have it's going to say something because you know I'm from Baltimore in there but should be I'm just I cannot believe this ended. The conversation is absolutely right. We need people to be skilled to get jobs that that is a public benefit so the fact that we are not funding. I'll stay colleges community colleges at a level that people can go. It's criminal employed folks pay taxes. Employed folks get jobs and homes and they go and buy stuff at home depot. This is a public policy thing now having said that and you don't operate onto I write a column about this stuff that it's criminal but on the other hand I work with individuals and until that public policies in place folks you can not take on this level of debt. You cannot let your children take on this level of debt. You you have to manage your expectations about what they're gonNa do for college so an we gotta talk about it on an individual level because we have people with this two hundred thousand and seventy thousand eight thousand that is crippling to them so give us some good. I don't WanNA get too much further ahead without talking specifically about scholarships grants and loans. Can you give Michelle to some of your best. General advice for dealing with these various forms of financial aid scholarships grants loans work study Cetera so my my my my what I tell parents this is you can hope that you're going to get a scholarship but the fact is less than one percent of students get enough money to go to college debt free so you need to plan from the time time that baby cries a net nursery when they're born and you're like all these little baby. You need to be saving for their college education. If you can't save enough then then you have a conversation with your child Bay. Let's let's go to community college for two years. You're GonNa stay at home and you're going to transfer now. They're interested in a career. Where perhaps there's not a plant in a college nearby. Then you talk about how you going to get them to their college and and lower the cost I say take loans completely off the table for your family malone alone no loans and if you do that then the conversation becomes different because of you say. I'm not going to take on loans then you're going to do what it takes aches to get that out to a college education with the least amount of debt trustee before our time is up. I just want to give you a chance to chime in terms of for profit schools many of which do you offer two year career vocational programs knowing what you know about these schools for people who say no. I've looked at all the options I still think this for profit school is my best bet. What advice would you give them. The single most important thing that anybody can do <hes> is to finish school and the fact in the reality is the social reality reality. Is that for some people that's GonNa take money. They do not have until we have a system that supports families and individuals to do that at a cost that does not burden them <hes> emotionally and financially debt. We're going to have to talk more realistically about that. Trustee McMillan Cottam and Assistant Professor of Sociology at Virginia Commonwealth University her book is called lower f the troubling rise a for profit colleges in the New Economy Professor Cottam. Thanks for talking to US absolutely my pleasure Paul tough. His latest book is called the years that matter or most how college makes or breaks us it comes out tomorrow Paul. Thank you thank you and Michelle Single Terry writes syndicated column the color of money for the Washington Post and and remember if debt is a person slap slavering mouth. Thank you show today's conversation is produced by page. Osborne and edited by Miranda full more. You can learn more about our team online at the one A. Dot org slash staff. This program comes to you from W. Amu Part of American University in Washington distributed by NPR until we meet again. I'm Joshua Johnson. Thanks for listening. This is one A. <music>.

Terry Author Paul Michelle NPR Tracy McMillan Cottam Joshua Johnson Michelle Single Terry Baltimore City Washington Virginia Commonwealth Universi Brad trustee Washington Post US assistant professor of sociolo Richmond Virginia Tracy Google Michigan Lower Ed
Episode 157 :: Ravi Kudesia and Christopher Reina :: Antecedents of Mindfulness

Present Moment: Mindfulness Practice and Science

00:00 sec | 8 months ago

Episode 157 :: Ravi Kudesia and Christopher Reina :: Antecedents of Mindfulness

"You're listening to episode one fifty seven of present moment to present moment. Mindfulness practice and science. I'm Ted Meissner present. Moment is a podcast with conversations and roundtable discussions. We speak with mindfulness. Researchers about their newest findings published in peer reviewed science journals teachers about their understanding and methods. They work with students of mindfulness authors about their books and interests and we also speak with everyday practitioners. The website present moment. Mindfulness DOT COM has show notes for each episode long with Resource Materials Ravi S Good Asia in Christopher S. Raina join us to speak about the antecedents of mindfulness Oh Listening to this podcast and find value in insights from. What is shared here know that this can only be sustained with your generosity. Please take a moment to present. Mindfulness DOT COM and click on make a donation if you value these conversations which can continue without your contributions. Thank you for your help and your support. We are beings in an ecosystem process of becoming in each moment within our environment. We're not from it. It influences us and we have an impact around us how to our motivations shape our intentions. And how are we making change in the world with Mindfulness Ravi? Esctacy is an assistant professor of human resource management at the Fox School Business Temple University. His research concerns how attention interpretation and energy transfer across individuals as they organized into collectives. And how these collective solve problems and make sense of their environments. Kristof arena is an assistant professor in the Department of Management and trump ownership Virginia Commonwealth university and the founder and president of leading without ego. Llc. He consults and leads trainings on. Mindfulness my leadership and managing the emotional space within organizations our guest today are Ravi credential and Ravi. Welcome to the PODCAST. Good to have you here it to be here. Thanks and Chris Raina Chris. Thank you for being here as well absolutely happy to be here. This is one of the great tree today. Have in speaking with more than just one guest and having a couple of people to share their views on. Whatever it is that we're talking about and they were talking about paper that listeners. The podcast will know is linked on the episode page along with an article. It'll have about that before. Go into one. That topic is I'm wondering if each of you might give us a little bit of background about your cells Robbie maybe we can start with you. Yeah sure man it gets. The mindfulness story is probably a pretty long one. And I was actually just talking with Chris about the Carols of giving a very motivational anecdote about why we practice. And why we believe in mind. Smith's kind of this whole. Let me tell you this dramatic story about how it worked for me and then maybe it'll work for you but whether that's maybe a little bit salesperson any And what like maybe a more Alternate way of of talking about why this matters. She was might be so I guess the kind of cut the story short or just to kind of signal and on at least one aspect of. What the mindfulness thing means and I guess this also kind of relates to how Chris and I met and know each other is that. Oh he's for a while and the organizational realm. It was kind of I'm close to something that organizations were doing for quite some time. Actually but we haven't really been studying and so I guess some time ago. Maybe you would be people who are starting to programs seven eight. Maybe nine years ago. Who had been practicing for some time and had been really curious about it. Started going into Grad School Not In the traditional way where you have an adviser is doing my research and you kind of end up doing what you're doing but We kind of got into it just with our own personal practice and then a little bit of sort of bottom up. Hey this is an interesting idea. Can we start to do this and so I was kind of one of those people Christmas and other who were trying to really see about what? Mindfulness might look quite not as a health. Intervention or not primarily. A religious practice primarily a psychological phenomenon. But something that's more explicitly organizational and There is something about this question of well. Gosh what does it mean to be organizational? And I guess part of it is this thing about how people with There are different interests different viewpoints. Different perspectives can become organized. Meaning they're attending to the same information interpreting it in similar ways that allows been act and coordinated manners that kind of phenomenon. What does mindfulness have to say about it? So I guess a lot of what's been motivating me in my research Messiah from the Personal Story. Is this question of Hey. There's something uniquely organizational Or maybe a better way to think about it. What does this look like as a form of organizing so not? Just what's going on in our heads? But how do people end up working together? And interacting with each other. What sort of proteins to them develop What are the collective sense making processes? That's able to enact these sorts of questions and that was something that really kind of came up and through Grad school and has been motivating me sense and I think that's maybe something that's a bit of A unique approach to mindfulness whereas I think typically we tend to think about it as something. That's a little bit more psychological and individual before else. It's maybe nested some sort of broader cultural religious viewpoint but Question of Gosh. What does it look like to think about? Mindfulness is the process of organizing So that's always been sort of a higher order respective viewpoint lens framework in the back of my mind and I guess those kind of the neat thing about critical was finding professors. Who are interested in supportive and now kind of being one myself as advised. The Pennsylvania's clearly is becoming a more legitimate mainstream topic of interest folks but that that Lens of mindfulness and organizing has been real central kind of guiding light and how I think about the thing and the research topics maybe the sorts of potential. There isn't for mindfulness. Socially that really really seems to be a true north for me distinct. Thank you for that. And it's it's fascinating to hear about this additional layer perspective round. Mindfulness as that. Sounds like a a relational thing in a creative thing as well. You Nice well. Thank you very much Chris. How about you tell us a little bit about your background. Interest in mindfulness. Sure I think I've always been entrusted in understanding why we are drawn to follow some people and were not drawn to follow others. I think if I really think back I've had a long standing interest in leadership and so I was in graduate school seeking to understand leadership better and recognizing that the best leaders tend to make people feel valued and feel a part of something And for me. That was what I was studying in my dissertation and I was going through difficult times personally. As as Ravi alluded to a lot of you know the ways we find ourselves. You know engaging in mindfulness relates to some things are going on in the personal life and so. I think that a lot going on at when I realized I was being less effective than I could be as a friend as a family member as a graduate student and something clicked in the realizing that the things that makes perhaps the best leaders are their sense of being able to work through difficult situations and still be all out managing relationships. Well and so as I continue to practice. Mindfulness and really Unlock how beneficial. It was for me personally. Are In trump personally rather for myself. what it allowed me to do as also connect more with people around me despite some of the pain and struggles than I was having a and it really clicked to me. I can really put this together. Mindfulness could be this link as you alluded to Ted. This idea that that mindfulness of the individual can become that shared and become something that other people can also feel and experience and it can bring people together so while we think of my influence is going on in the head of a particular individual ourselves. Mostly a wanted allows is a different level of connecting nussle. Ravi was really alluding to this organizing process. How DO PEOPLE Because of their mindfulness organize differently and come together and mostly the work that he and I do of course is in the management realm with leaders followers workers. When I think that's really how it came together for me with regard to finding my way into studying. Mindfulness and as Ravi alluded to we met at academic conferences sort of were in the same sessions few times and got to having some conversations. About how do we continue to unlock? What mindfulness is at? How do we help folks understand what it means to bring mindfulness to work and to the process of organizing our great? Thank you so much again. Another thing is showing up. Is your each of. You is assistant professor at different schools of business and one of the things that I frequently hear as a criticism of contemporary mindfulness views. That are taken from. A traditional context is that they're all about greed they're all about pacifying the workers and all about these terrible things and that's not at all what I hear ever when I speak with teaching it when they speak with people who are in this world or corporations or they're teaching this kind of thing. What I'm hearing is what you're sharing here. Is that this is relational is creative about how this can help. Make PEOPLE BE MORE CONNECTED. Inspiring. I've yet to hear someone say. Oh so we can make a buck on it for green purposes it. Just it's not there stands out for these interviews that nope just not there. So thank you both for that background and each of you. What I'd like to do now is who went to a little bit more. He mentioned how you met going to conferences and finding common interests in some of this territory. What made you decide to collaborate on this particular paper? How did that come about? Maybe we can start with you on this sure. I think one one challenge that we have Is that we. We love to think about new ideas. We like to be creative. We like to think outside of the box. One challenge that as as professors were constrained by as while we'd love to study and how we'd love to study. It isn't always feasible when it comes to getting access to data that will allow us to test those research questions in a rigorous way as. I think we had many conversations of Studies we'd like to do and it was just a matter of getting access organizations and having that ability to to really do a study the way we wanted to and one thing we had noted and it's normal for a new idea to be introduced to the literature. Most folks have said you know. Let's define mindfulness. And let's figure out what mindfulness per decks in other words like. Mindfulness if you're mindful higher low like what is that lead to you doing differently so thinking about. Mindfulness as a predictor won a lot of folks hadn't done yet and it's normal when construct gets introduced to literature is to understand what contributes to that contract in the first place in this case. What leads to mindfulness But many of the researchers hadn't really thought of that or done that because mindfulness was assumed to be something inherent to the individual something that the individual brings to a given situation. So it's less able to be be diminished or added to because of the situation because the person him or herself is bringing it and so that was an assumption that a lot of researchers had previously And it was also an we haven't really tested before and so. I'm through various relationships. At our at our universities we were able to get access some really cool data sites to test these ideas we had Got Opportunity to be involved in some training for students in which they were in the lab and they were undergoing some difficult situations that they had to think on their feet and it was emotionally stressful and in those situations You know we. We saw an opportunity to understand their state of mind. Captured their states of mindfulness. And figure out okay. Well the situation is changing. What about the situation constrains or creates more capacity for those folks to be mindful in the moment and so you know I think there's this push pull of what we'd like to study and then the access we get to study it and I together that kind of combined to create The study now that we're going to focus on today that we that we just published and I guess I'll let Ravi take ticket from there. If you want to add anything won't the one thing that I would At about the collaboration was this was. I don't know how how many months was but it was the most productive period. I think I've ever had in my career. Which is hosted in Singapore and Chris? Lives in Richmond and so we were effectively working nonstop twenty four hours. Because I do not something and I go to sleep. Send it to him. And then he waking up and it was just a sure you've ridiculous productivity where you know that opportunity would pop up and then we kind of take an idea that we've been mulling over for some time and oh this looks this links perfectly with this static opportunity. What about this and so it was just a lot of really great insights and Actually I'm not a lot of fun. Kinda came out of this process and so I think there's just kind of that piece to which is you know suck in Talking to someone about how. How do you pick collaborators? And one of the things I mention was all right. Well there's skill. There's writing ability statistical analysis ability within. Gosh it's also super cool to collaborate with people that you actually just like as a person and get along and CIA. I so I kind of recall the circumstances in which The study became possible And I think that's probably worth mentioning because Gossip can be really fun and maybe maybe good ideas come out of out of you know fun. Positive interactions do that. That's possible yeah I couldn't I couldn't agree more on. That now is that that was a wild fun time. We put in a lot of hours. That's that's actually for sure. Thanks for that. And what's interesting about what you're describing is. It's not mindfulness. As some power that people bring into situations it's that We people are processes and part of ecosystem that is quite influenced by the conditions. Were in including mindfulness. And how that fits into it so be interested to hear more about what you've found in the in the paper so Ravi maybe you can keep going until us a little bit about what you propose in the paper. What's the premise? Yeah I think Christine up beautifully. The ideas basically is And the title is a play on the famous line by John Cabinet. San Wherever you go there you are and That was set up his book. And the the gist of it. Sort of is that We as people and his mine's kind of pop in and out of different situations and we bring something very essential very inherent about us to where we go right And so if we are bringing these repeated patterns of ways of paying attention of interpreting the world you know this aspect of who we are to these situations Then the way we are in a situation really reflect something about us and I mean. That's that's intuitively true to some extent right If Gosh one movie isn't funny maybe the movies bad but like every movie is not funny. Maybe you just don't have a great sense of humor right. There is something about consistency across situations. Means that there's something going on inheritance But it's also very much the case and this is what we title the paper. Is that wherever you go? There you become which is that. We are very much you know. This is true from but it's perspective certainly And I'd say it's also true. Psychological perspective is that we're very much prophecies And the process is part of an OAKEN system is that we're taking in Information around us and so the sort of person that you are as a podcast or is not going to be the same way that you are. You know as a friend or as a neighbor or During your day job and so there are these aspects. Where you know situations to have an important aspect of Shaping kind of how we how we show up. Are we manifest Our ourselves in our capacity and There was this It was sort of This this piece that I read I just remember. I mean it's ridiculously simple paper but the idea just really kind of stuck with me. It's by Hudson's and the papers called how the cockpit remembers it speed and it's a simple analysis I guess Of just as As you're looking at an at an airplanes cockpit Simple things simple of remembering Speeds it's not just something that's happening within people's heads. It's something that you know. People are interfacing with Dials and they're using books and there's social interactions and so- cognition as we typically think about it. It's something that happens between people skulls but his his point was actually a system as a whole. That's remembering speed. It's not just in people's heads. It's in the ritual. The interactions the routines that they use to extract out to five formation and Then jointly acted and so remember just kind of reading this piece and thinking. Gosh there is really something to be said about the power of situations and systems and the material tools and technologies that we use. And it's not. It's not so easy to kind of disconnect. Well we normally think about. Is things like mind. Mindfulness cognition information processing from the environments. And so kind of with that thought in mind the question then becomes well. Gosh. To what extent are the systems the situations where in the context that were in? To what extent are they associating or Or enhancing our capacity for mindfulness. And so there is. I mean I think a pretty rich Philosophical background in discussion and think about how might itself is distributed throughout the situations that were part of And what we wanted to maybe do a little bit to take that sort of philosophy not a philosophy where the mind is something. That's inherently contained within the person that resides within their skull. And they kind of just go from situation situation could take more process and open open system sort of approach to say. Well Gosh if minded something that's constantly being in a state of becoming it's constantly manifesting it's constantly a rising in different ways by drawing on. What's around it? You know like the pilots with the tools and the artifacts and the technologies. How is that showing up in the way that we think about mindfulness and that was sort of the motivational. Which is Josh so far. We've really thought about mindfulness. And she weighs one way is that it's just inherent thing and then the other way is that you know it's something that's rooted in interventions and see take a mindfulness based intervention. And what's really going on is the interventions kinda turning up some sort of dial On on mindfulness and your head and our thought was maybe there's a different way of approaching it and so this ontological becoming was was really at a high level. The motivating premise is that we really do become a new and situations and we're not separate from those situations. We are an integral part of it and the influences in every moment. Yeah exactly that like Chris Dodd. Gosh it's hard to study a complex idea like that in a very pure way but we at least wanted to make sort of the initial first dense and to think about mindfulness on these terms it was very nice layup and Chris. I'm wondering if you might say a little bit about with that. That understanding that are outrageous gave us and setting the context in the paper. You talk about some of these kinds of influences these interactions with the world around us and wondering if you might describe a few of those and other things like motivational forces like that. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about. Yeah absolutely so I guess. One thing that that important to mention is that this study included multiple Sort of many studies so we looked at this phenomenon that that Ravi just discussed in sort of a way that we started in being really broad and not really sure exactly how this worked and we were very sort of experimental income throwing out. Hey maybe it works like this. Maybe it works like this and it was nice to have and start off with that approach and then once we found now sort of what seemed to me to work well and what predicted this emergence of of mindfulness We are able to sort of hone in on it on the second and third study so by the time we were done with this package of studies in this paper we can be relatively sure as we can never be fully sure of course but you know we. We feel pretty good about these. Things on average are impacting. Sort of how bimetallism burge's across different situations in different contexts. Because we studied it with undergraduate students we studied it with Nurses who are working fulltime in intensive care units and we also studied a- among a community sample so sort of set up the study to be very much able to know extrapolate the findings across a wide swath of people and the jobs that those people do. Yeah and It's kind of building. I work with Chris. Mentioned is Our hope was Kinda dig into some real underlying mechanisms right and so he. Hopefully there should be manifest across these different situations There's different occupations and The the overall I guess the baseline model would be something like this. Is that We talking about ideas cognitive resources in terms of you know what's your capacity to process information And we know that the things that are most resource demanding are the times when we need to self-regulate for paying attention and one thing we need to regulate our attention away to something else or We have you know persistent negative thoughts and we're trying to hit them he's sorts of salt regulatory processes. And what's Kinda been interesting though? Is that it seems though that That mindfulness really relies on these processes. But we haven't really thought about them in terms of A couple of factors one of wish is there's motivational aspects so One one SORTA speculation at that. I've had for a while and I know Chris and I talked about. This too is What we kinda calling the paper the transfer problem. Which is we do some stuff. Or Meditating on the Mat. And then it's supposed to affect us in realize we never really theorize or explain too much that transfer process is usually you know the explanation is something around neural plasticity or we're strengthening brain regions. But I don't know how that manifests in terms of you know. Oftentimes we'll do these really short trainings And you still see effects and so we thought is that. Maybe it's not really changing rain capacity as much as it's changing the motivations to self regulate And so we introduce a measure in an idea around this idea of Meta cognitive beliefs. Which is what you basically believe about your mind so it might not be your actual neural capacity to pay attention stronger but something like do you think that. Attention is scarce. Do you think that your ability to pay attention at something. That's GONNA run out over time and you have to preserve it. Well if you sit down and meditate for two hours and as it turns out no I really can't sustain my attention and it's not the team it's actually energizing. Well that's changing your motivational structure this Meta cognitive Belief structure and then that might be feature that's gonNA transfer out Or similarly right the default tendency would be something like gosh when experiences negative feelings. What I WANNA do surprise. The run away from them is from them but actually turns out just observing them noticing them monitoring them with a sense of openness and curiosity is the. It's it's it's virtuous thing to do Or you know maybe another belief. It'd be something around. Yeah obviously the way. The world appears to me is true. It's not in surplus. Not Interpretation of mine Just objective facts versus when you meditate. Maybe you see dots and feelings kind of pop up and Maybe that's one way to see things but there are other ways and I don't have to hold onto my beliefs so tightly so one of the thoughts that we had was gosh Maybe what we ought to be doing is thinking about. What are these these Meta cognitive beliefs? That might motivate someone to engage in the self-regulatory process to see that. Keep her attention on doing events and that allows to step back from thoughts and feelings and so that was kind of the first aspect of how mindfulness might arise is that we have these beliefs is Gleevec might drive some of our targeted resources into self regulation and then the sort of other thought it was like what's what might be complementary or or different aspects of that and then that's where the idea of also situations came and into into mind because situations can also make it harder or easier to enact yourself regulatory processes that produce mindfulness. So simple example. Would be something like. Is it easier to do a task just with yourself on a computer? Or what if this your smartphone is sitting right next to you right just? The presence of that smartphone is a distracter that makes it actually harder to drive your resources. What it is that you're trying to do and so that was kind of the thought process. Which is that we can think about aspects of situations that help trial resources on past and therefore make it easier to be mindful Or we can think about aspects of situations that posed these demands and actually make it more difficult to be mindful so the the the hope was basically that we can kind of introduce theoretical model. That would trade theorizing of mindfulness and situations From these Meta cognitive beliefs we have about. How am I works and that these might be an and if these do in fact for the mindfulness These beliefs that people have seems to be an important part of answering this question of how to inventions work. Because maybe they work by changing relational structure. So that was the first thing. The second thing is kind of again this this this feeling of Mental fatigue seems to be really important and how people allocate their resources so gossiping feeling really fatigued the evolutionary purpose of tedious. To tell you to pull your resources away From self regulation and to do things that are beneficial to you in the present moment right which is why when people super fatigue. They're more likely to eat junk. Food right So that was the second sort of motivational factor. And then the third or these situational features that you know either. Draw your resources towards tasks and the fullness more likely or pose additional demands and make mindfulness a little bit more difficult so kind of starting from these more stable beliefs to more long lasting mood like mental fatigue to more immediate situational factors like the task attentional pool in the past. Attentional demands We hope at least that the theoretical model that introducing and then subsequently test like Chris mentioned really give a nice tracing of these situational aspects. How mindfulness survives and one of the things I wanted to ask about in that the third motivational force the situation appraisal. How much one's perception may influence that? Because if your perception is testifying or if your perception of the situation is out this is a cakewalk. And your dunning Kruger. I got this when maybe don't how much of that me influence things as well. Yeah absolutely So there's there's the philosophical this fiscal answer. I can give you a I Is that because the way that we designed our studies and I'm sure we'll get a second but We do something called screen sampling. Which is one person taking a brief survey many many times. And so you're able to do Israel to separate out A person's typical way of being. So you can take the statistical responses and you can say there's a aspect of it that is stable for a person and there's an aspect of relative to that person baseline. How much is this situation So one of our one of the things that we assess is called Hindrance stressors and like politics red tape busy work sort of negative aspects of institutions and organizations that we really hate. And that stresses out. So Gosh. Maybe I'm just I perceive things maybe in a catastrophe sizing way and so yeah my baseline levels quite high But we can subtract out each person's average from the rest of their responses and that gets even if I'm somebody who thinks things are normally hi. This is high even for me or this is low relative to my baseline so this typical answers. Yeah we're able to account for both those and actually looking at the differences at what we call the between person differences which are your average tendencies and then the within person fluctuations which is relative to your own baseline is this higher low Those differences in what seems to exert effects versus not are Are Quite telling. Actually there really is interest and so I think you're absolutely right. Is that there are aspects of how people appraise things and maybe two people would praise the same thing quite differently But what's quite lovely about the method at least is that we can really distinguish between the two cases where sometimes They don't work the same way or in the same direction. The same magnitude of effect size. And that that's kind of neat to notice. You know what I like about what you're saying. Ravi and maybe Chris you can say a little bit more about this is one of the criticisms that often comes up in studies around. Mindfulness is that it's small sample sizes and also report and that's US says excuse to completely dismiss it and yet what you're describing is something where it's taking into account what that individual variability might be and you didn't have a tiny weeny tiny small sample size. You had hundreds of people in this Chris if you could fill us in a little bit more about that. Sure it's a good. It's really good point in robbing a great job. Kind of explain the differences between battle between and within person. I think if we if we think about how. Where and how mindfulness operates it inherently operates moment moment right it's it's by definition a state of being and yet as a shortcut and as a necessity to do research much of the research on. Mindfulness has really captured. Mindfulness According to being a trait or sort of an average level of a person's Way of approaching wife with mindfulness or not and so that is limited. Because as we as we said. You know mindfulness isn't Kerley a state of being so capturing it at one point at time in assuming that's how it always is of course ignores all the variation that someone has across a given day plus of course You know whether and when they took that initial measurement of mindfulness depending on how mindful or not. They were at that moment. They're sort of average level. That predicts the rest of the variables in a given study. And so you know one thing that Ravi and I very much are passionate. Bow is measuring. Mindfulness how it occurs which is moment to moment now. Of course there's always trade-offs in research for being extra rigorous and Ravi and I always ask for the moon and and are very satisfied when people You know don't immune but give us a lot of opportunity to collect data and what we mean by that is you know instead of capturing Ryan from this once now. Our default is to ideally capture. Mindfulness three times a day for each participant. And ideally over. Two weeks. You'd think about it three times a day times five workday that's fifteen And then times two weeks so we have thirty data points per person and so instead of a sample size or an end of being a hundred per perhaps typical study. We really have a hundred times. Thirty or three thousand Ends a really effective sample sizes much larger at that within hurson level that Robbie talked about and antennas. You alluded to right. I mean that that makes it much more rigorous and powerful to look at. How mindfulness fluctuates moment to moment instead of them saying you know person's level of mindfulness at one point in time predicts their engagement at a different point in time we can say across thirty instances. You know when they're mindfulness tends to be higher than average does their engagement also tend to be higher on average and so we can really start to say? I mean never moving completely toward Zaluski of course but starting to say with more with less hesitation that you know yeah. It's mindfulness likely driving. A huge part of you know whatever we're studying so that was more about just the methodology in general but I think it is absolutely a a benefit to to our study and one that we hope researchers and practitioners alike start to continue and embrace more. Because that's mindfulness where happens? In that day to day in moment to moment fluctuation Chris and wonder if we can stay with you for a little bit on this. I'm curious about you'd mentioned. We're not to the point of causation. Correlation is not because Asian. And what were some of the things that you you did? Find what lot worse some of those attributes that may have been present when mindfulness was in some way there as well or not. What would that look like when he had the results? Yeah absolutely you know. As Ravi discuss the Meta cognitive beliefs ended up being very powerful predictors ultimately of. How one's mindfulness fluctuates moment. To moment as he alluded to that idea of how you believe how you think about your mind working absolutely has a big part in actually informing. Outta mind ends up working so that was a huge part of the study. It ended up being a big part of the study that we we actually removed some of that from the main ship just because it was so long that was one of the major contributions was fleshing out. What is this idea of? Meta cognitive belief. How do we measure it so A lot of work went into Internet. And I don't know if I can't remember. I think Ravi mentioned the three components by name but he did talk about the different aspects of medication beliefs but just to recap them briefly. This idea that you know that you can and are able to pay attention and stay attentive for periods of time. A long periods of time without getting fatigue so that was one of the areas of beliefs And the second one is not it is valuable and important for one to be able to step back and just notice feelings as they arise whether that something that you should do or not. That would be that second component and in the third component for for Meta cognitive beliefs. A really All about thinking and acknowledging whether there are there are alternative ways to account for something that happened right so interpreting events in a different way other than our default or at least acknowledging that there are alternative ways to interpret an event so those together in that package kind of create this idea of Meta cognitive beliefs and then sort of going beyond mega mega cognitive beliefs to you asked about the Situational aspects we found So these are different findings slightly on the different studies but sort of the general trends Positive Social Interactions. So when we interact with others in the workplace and we feel that we trust them and the interaction is positive that was helpful for trading Mindfulness and bringing out mindfulness. The extent to which we feel that there is a nice balance between the resources we as individuals bring to the situation and then what the situation calls for from us right otherwise known as this flow state flow is created when what you have to bring matches what the situation needs and that puts us in a state of flow so flow When when that happened right that was helpful for creating more? Mindfulness and then on the flip side You Know Ravi mentioned hindrance stressors those things that annoy US stress us out. Maybe it's the politics of an organization or the bureaucracy that one has to navigate the necessary parts of the job but still they're very depleting and refound across the studies. You know the extent to which individuals experienced those hindrance stressors in in large amounts of very much like deplete and bring us away from higher levels of mindfulness and then we only studied this and one of the studies. But it's interesting. It's something that that Robin I very much want to study another study. Is this idea of technology use. Especially as we are more and more connected to our smart devices it becomes more and more difficult to put them down And yet you know rounding US professors in the classroom and we have this constant thought. Do allow students to use computers right. It's a great note taking tool. But there's also the likelihood that there's distractions and say we sort of broke up technology into two different categories and I think the findings make a lot of sense but I still think it's instructive to think about the two different components of this technology in one. Was You know are you passively scrolling through social media right and is it something you just go to because you're bored or you have time in between events right said we found that that was damaging to walls of mine from us as you might as you might expect versus using technology to look up something like a wikipedia or to seek information right? That helped bring us toward mindfulness. As a little bit of nuance there of how the technology played out. And it's interesting to hear you describe that 'cause you both may know I teach mindless live online and one of the things I start with in orientations because the people are joining other computers typically is that you have before you one of the most devious distraction devices ever invented. And ask you one thing. Please take your hands and put them in your lap off the mouse off the Kenyan in once when delivering that message in a program in the corporate world to colleagues in eighteen folks that I knew I heard at that moment groans and laughter on the other line because that was such a challenge because so much of our identification in that context in that world is. How much can multitask? And of course we know. That's not how the human brain works processors can do. Computers can do that. But people don't multitask. And so it's just distraction at that point. So I'm I'm interested in hearing more about so you describe things like these things that are also there when mindfulness is presently flow states or feeling like you're well connected and supported by a good team that kind of thing and I'm wondering if you look down ways to determine which was the cause in which was the effect or were only able to identify these work conditions that were present at the time when Robbie Hart Buttons. Yeah no yeah I mean so. So the first study like Chris mentioned We really be grateful to the viewers and the editor is that they were really on board with this. Is that I mean there's you know there's problems going on in April science. Where kind of people take sports where you're approaches? And then present them. As being confirmatory and You know that leads to some sort issues. Round is working to replicate but the editor and Reviewers really on board but Hey this is our first study and we just sort of exploded. A bunch of Potential things that we think might influence mindfulness and we test them all at the same time and that increases our power to detect findings but You know your corrections for values and all that but we like to kind if you think valuable idea we like to pursue it a little further And then treat this really before we study. And build it more confirmatory in study two and three and yeah. They're absolutely on board with that and so You know kind of in the subsequent studies we would do. I mean a lot of the typical things that you would do which would be you know sort of Wag lag Like lag time between predictors and outcomes and so for instance Chris Mentions the medic cognitive beliefs rights And Sew Gosh. You know with these. Nurses they're working these twelve hour shifts and we'd find that these beliefs that were reported Prior to a worship would predict state. Mindfulness twelve hours later after their shipped and or Similarly in study three for people who are two communities sample. You know full time working employees is again reporting. These businesses reported before work predict my after work. So getting that time pearls. Operation was really interesting in other thing. That's kind of neat and is kind of Harking back in that to to what you had mentioned before about the within versus between person levels So for instance These effects really only held at one or the other. So for instance. Chris mentioned positive social interaction. So I like the people I'm interacting with WHO I trust them. And you can imagine that both levels within person level would be. Hey I just had a positive social interaction. What is the stupor. My mindfulness a little bit later in our later right. Or that's like a one time interaction sort of a positive priming sort of thing but you can also imagine it as what happens is most of the people that I interact with like right. So when's the context of the fact one's a sort of a one time off social interaction effect and so we find is actually there? There is no one time social action fact. So it's not like I can just be nice to you todd and then that's an increase your mindfulness but it is the case. That Gosh is if you're in a context where you do like any trucks and you feel good around the people that you interact with that does seem to be associated with positive months so kind of some of these effects in the disentangling was interesting. And this is actually. We're not talking about this particular study but we had kristen previously published a study looking specifically at whether you find people trustworthy and it's the exact same finding which is that if I interact with one person that I find to be trustworthy particularly trustworthy. It doesn't have much effect on mindfulness. But if in the context of trust where I find most of the people I interact with typically are trustworthy that does seem to be related to higher levels of mindfulness. So I think that's kind of another interesting way. That may be disentangled. Little Bit Is Finding some of these effects work in different ways and that could be contrast to for instance. Chris mentioned the the skills challenge balance right so as as he mentioned that. The key antecedents diplo. So we weren't saying whether the flow state in the mindfulness state tend to overlap. But we were kind of asking is what about the major antecedent to flow. Which when the task that you're working on requires just the amount of challenge that your skill level has and as it turns out you know one task does seem to have that sort of fact so there is a within Kirsten. One offs affects of that. So Gosh when when when when that When that task bubbles up and it's something that is really kind of challenging you engaging you it draws your attentional resources to the tasks and makes it more easy to be mindful And so that's kind of Another way to think about it. It's not just lagging between pitches and outcomes but also thinking about the differences between these one off verses more stable contextual ways of thinking about things and one of the consequences to that this has And I think this is maybe unique to to management journals but they usually want a section called practical implications or managerial implications and All right so you're in a business school. You're supposed to be thinking about organizations and organizing. So Gosh How on Earth does this have implications for a manager as managers the HDP or any of our journals but if they were what would they get out of it and Well yeah this actually has something to say about about how we can design our systems to be more facilitative of mindfulness and To the extent that I mean I know. You've mentioned to made allusions to the of mindfulness being instrumentalise and being sort of used them cynical ways that in that context. I really loved the idea that no you can't just have one little positive social interaction and Oh look. I've made that person mindful. No it really does have to be something. That's the contextual effect. Is that Gosh? My phone's really blossoms. When you're around people that you trust that you like that you positive interactions with and you can't really get it and cheap sort of way through just one off interactions. So think kind of you know. An addition more of the causation causalities or the Scientific debate the practical implications are neat. They're too which is that At least for these social antecedents it really does seem to be Based on at least these two so that we run contractually driven phenomenon which is kind of. Nice and kind of positive and I think it has some pretty good humanistic implications nice. Thank you and I'd like to ask each of you may be crispy concert with you a question about in the research and this work that you've been doing it might be something directly in these studies. Maybe it's something you've run across. That isn't explicitly in here. But what is it that you personally have found really interesting or maybe inspirational to you in your own practice that you've run across in this work. It's a good question Took a second to think about that. You know I think I'm probably still the one that Ravi is GonNa go. You'll have to pick another The idea that our minds so powerful and I think we know that but this idea that what we believe about the mind Absolutely has an impact on what actually becomes the reality in our mind. I think is just really really need. And you know it's sort of a more nuanced way of thinking about the common phrases that we've heard probably since being a kid is idea that you know believe it and make it happen and you can do it and and so many ways as you explore the depths of your mind and recognize that your capacity to self regulate and manage your attention is inherent in a lot of ways to to you and the practice right. I think it's very very empowering Just like in the leadership Brown Leah. Analogue would be too. I always tell leaders like how. Could you possibly hope to lead others? Well if you can't lead yourself well and I think at a very basic level leading ourselves well entails absolutely understanding how our mind works and how a doesn't work when we wanted to some times and so much of that has to do with how allocate our attention and. I challenged folks when leading workshops and training and mindfulness and in leadership is to is to ask the question often is who and what is who and what is getting your attention throughout the day and do they deserve it and I think that often shakespeare to the core because they recognize that what. They're spending so much time thinking about and being anxious about is all about future things they want to have happen and pass things. They wish they had had have been. And it's not about being in the moment at all which is of course the only moment we can actually control and I think once they feel that and see bat. No the power of mindfulness unlocked for them in a way That that they haven't had thought haven't thought of mindfulness before. So I think that's what I would say and then probably steal something else because Ravi just said I think this idea the it's it can't be faked as much. We seen this across two of our studies now from a leadership perspective. It's not like you can just tell someone to be nice. It's leaders have a requirements to create organizational cultures where people are trusting and where people care about each other and evaluate each other. So it's it's it's not it's creating the very structure in which people exist in the organization that creates Kindness and vulnerability and this connection and leaders are very much responsible for doing that. So I think those would be my my two things for you. What are what are the morsels? You'RE GONNA dig out now. The crystals to a how I I don't know there are just some ideas that just I mean. I'd like to pretend this is all very rational process. But I think a. Lot of what motivates at least me and. I know Chris and maybe no other people are doing. Research is just beautiful ideas and are you wrestle off with a beautiful day and you might come up with something that's true or helpful or whatnot but just as idea the coming. I just think it's incredibly profound Almost everything about you know how we talk about the world how we how we think about things it. Just it makes the world out to be the stable entities and early makes us see things and rigid terms And so no. Everything's always in the process of becoming Changes in the part of everything amid like that You know that example of like the The ship of theseus it's like The ship is constantly being replaced. One part at a time and you know we keep calling it the same ship but eventually all the parts or different than when it started out and so we do think about things as these stable entities and that kind of blocks the way that that that changes osen inherent part of of existence and reality and so on one level. I think this applies to you. Know process lost the influxes science on another level. I mean that's probably a great way to some eighty the ideas of nippy and permanence and Buddhism Ten the importance of you know for example not reaffirming things and And but as an again there's this whole idea of participant bottle which is how subjects and objects appear to exist independently but they actually kind of CO arise based off of you know Underlying consciousnesses like storehouse gone so. There's all these sort of aspects that kind of play into becoming From the you know the philosophic aspects to the the Buddhist elements to the To the methodological and then there's also the practical which is that again if we don't think about mindfulness as something that just people have But we think about it as something. That's constantly emerging in a rising in the way that you know some more stable elements but also more fluctuating situational elements seem to all function together. Gosh that opens up a whole new arena and way of thinking about how we can design systems to encourage mindfulness and again you know kind of against going full circle ish is I think. That's kind of the neat aspect or the charge. That people who are thinking about organizations are nosing have to think about which is. It's not just about taking mindful people putting them into a organization and calling that organization and Mindful Organization. It's about how do you enter? We've these facilitating aspects. That are encouraging. Mindfulness that are helping people engage in these Meta cognitive beliefs. That are helping. Draw their resources towards the things that they need to do How do you build that into the very fabric of organizing And in that sense I mean I don't know how far we can take it right I don't know how far this idea of designing systems for. Mindfulness could go But you know one thing that that that I've been exploring lately and had a chance to interact with people around is in the field of Higher reliability organizations so at a conference with these nuclear regulators and nuclear operators. And so for them. I mean constantly They're thinking about mindfulness. And how is it that you can ensure that people are attending to? What's going on that? They're being flexible. And how they're interpreting. you know there's information after being attention to and it can't just be something that we relegate to the individual to do. It's gotta be something that we're thinking about is how to design situation and systems so kind of released. What's what's been inspiring to. Me Is really taking this paper as an opportunity to think through an anthology of becoming And what that means for mindfulness and then how we apply it some of the major real pressing social issues in terms of began. You know systems that we depend on for critical infrastructure for safety for survival energy That we really don't want to break down. How can we help dissociate mindfulness again? Not just by putting the burden on individuals but by designing systems to facilitate that can so I'm inspired by the beauty of the idea of becoming and really kind of motivated to really drive on the practical aspects of how we can do that idea into something that's GonNa make us better off socially thank you very much for that. So for those who are listening to this episode will have some links on the episode page and I think our guests today Chris Arena Chris. Thank you very much for being here. Absolutely thanks so much for having US and Ravi Ravi. Thank you so much for being here as well. Thank you Thanks for listening. If you'd like to learn more about something you've heard in today's podcast. Please come and visit the website at present moment. Mindfulness DOT COM. You'll find an entire webpage devoted to this in every episode. You can comment on the episode page and find show notes other helpful resources for your mindfulness practice. Shock of hundred years occurred on present moment is used by permission and through the generosity of musician. Run Rigo Rodriguez. His website is linked on the present moment website on the about podcast music page until next time. Remember every moment you have a choice. They get the best. You can see you next unpleasant moment.

Chris Raina Chris Ravi Robbie Hart founder and president Ted Meissner assistant professor US Christopher S. Raina Chris Dodd Smith Grad school Kristof arena Esctacy Richmond Singapore Pennsylvania Fox School Business Temple Uni Virginia Commonwealth universi graduate student
NPR News: 10-25-2019 3AM ET

NPR News Now

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

NPR News: 10-25-2019 3AM ET

"Get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply this message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity some things are slow like a snail races other things are fast like Xfinity X. by the country except in the Mid West on Asian stock market shares are mixed lower in Hong Kong I'm Shay Stevens N._P._R.. News in Washington Agency employees face retaliation after exposing abuse waste or harm to veterans the Office of Accountability Whistle Blower Protection and Veterans Affairs was created a report from the Va Inspector General's Office has an agency unit that's meant to protect a whistle blower failed those workers the report suggests area where Pacific Gas and electric shut off power Wednesday in anticipation of high winds and dry conditions. The area was hit hard by the firestorms of two thousand seventeen the whole debate on it election on Monday Frank Langfitt NPR news London and from Washington you're listening to NPR news doesn't provide access to the president's accuser shuts Republicans out for all practical purposes and is a Jean Paul Lowenthal Assistant Fire Marshal in Santa Rosa which is more than twenty miles away said people's nerves have been rattled that fire God extremely big really quickly more than fifty four hundred British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is calling for a general election on December twelfth. NPR's Frank Langfitt has more Johnson is offering a deal to me CONAN's he will give parliament more time to scrutinize his brexit withdrawal agreement which is one of the biggest pieces of legislation facing the country decades in exchange for support for down steep hills jumped a highway and are now heading toward the food and wine destination of HEALDSBURG FOR NPR news. I'm recommen- more than forty Senate Republican worthy substitute for the way you need to do it. Democrats are rejecting the argument noting that Republicans on the Senate Intelligence Committee are also questioning witnesses in the impeachment astray Shen than previously reported the ACLU says revised figures from the Justice Department bringing the total number of children separated since July twenty seventeen and instead needs an extension for Russell's which is expected to be announced on Friday Johnson needs a two-thirds majority in the House of Commons to trigger general election the prime minister and was very visible from a significant part of Cinema County department's like Santa Rosa were flooded with nine one one calls even though the fire was nowhere near the city limits the flames rushed the American Civil Liberties Union fifteen hundred six fifty six more children were separated from their parents at the Mexico border during the early days of the trump that winging election in making the offer Johnson is tacitly acknowledging that he can't take the United Kingdom out of the European Union by the end of this month which he repeatedly pledged to do years ago former Virginia governor l Douglas Wilder Says Review Panel has cleared him of sexual misconduct allegations while there was the first elected black governor Abdu process instead of the judiciary looking at a potential impeachable offense they've created a process in the Intel community committee thus behind closed doors him where wildfires have burned several homes and forced thousands of evacuations blazes broke out after another fire in California's wine country force more are in the US and he currently teaches at Virginia Commonwealth University from Member Station W. VPN Roldan reports Doug Wilder was accused of

Boris Johnson NPR Frank Langfitt Santa Rosa prime minister NPR Senate Douglas Wilder American Civil Liberties Union Mid West Senate Intelligence Committee Washington Agency Hong Kong Veterans Affairs Shay Stevens Pacific Gas Jean Paul Lowenthal Virginia Commonwealth Universi
Dive Into The Wild, Twisted And Surprisingly Cultured World Of GWAR

World Cafe

00:00 sec | 8 months ago

Dive Into The Wild, Twisted And Surprisingly Cultured World Of GWAR

"Hey this is world cafe just wanted to pop in here before you hear this next piece let you know that even though it sounds like it world cafe is not on the road right now. We're all hunkered down just like you. This was recorded a few months ago for our sense of place series in Virginia. Hope you enjoy it. You're listening to World Cafe. I'm rain address. And I'm CA- lamb today. We're headed to another stop on our sense of place trip to Richmond. Virginia profiling brand with the heart of something. We're intergalactic space marauders. We come to your planet to subjugate Europe Human Race through music and crack cocaine k. Picture enormous gory. Monsters dressed lake caveman. Vikings that guy. You just heard it's ours drummer. He goes by Jews. Mac Degussa onstage. His face it's all teeth. His monthly energy expose. He's carrying this huge sledgehammer. It's awesome and beyond Guar being intergalactic space monsters for the last thirty five years. They've been heavy metal musicians operating out of Richmond. Virginia and occasionally. They scratched the surface of the mainstream. Today we're GONNA meet a ban that's been described by their manager as a cross between kiss the rocky horror picture show the World Wrestling Foundation and the simpsons bloody violence to thrill their fans. We've seen them in is so much more than just a metal band. I went to see Guar maybe ten years ago and they put on this elaborate show. They spray the crowd with blood. There's kind of this loose plot to get really violent. Onstage things get intense we cannibalistic. Like blood orgies. Yeah that's code for Guar concert. We kill humans on mass. You know you're the worst thing that ever happened to this planet. You're polluting it. It's disgusting so here to sort of thin the herd as we like to call it but it's all just a big fund show. They don't actually kill anyone. They don't spray real blood but it does get messy then. Everyone wears white shirts. Because you want to show off. How much sludge you got all over you. I got soaked. I can tell you are very excited about this. It was great until I had to take the bus home. The bus driver probably thought it was less great. I imagined like the bus driver. People probably have misconceptions about Guar. Yeah it might seem kind of silly and juvenile but it's not simply a gory cartoon meet Mike Bishop. He's got a PhD in music from the University of Virginia. Andy's got some thoughts. Guar you've got a group of artists that are in the band right so it's not. This isn't slipknot where somebody else makes those masks. And you don't know who that person is. Kiss where somebody else makes the costumes. It's nothing like that. It's focused on the visual art. And but Mike's more than an academic he's also lars current lead singer blow. Thar a stout pig faced horned Goblin but to me. He's also the band's zen-master this element of the absurd right. It's also very anti art in some ways right. The original Guar members got together in college back in the mid nineteen eighties. They're part of the art scene. I mean we'll think about like you know the Virginia Wealth University at the time that the band came together. You were a guy who liked comic books like this is probably not true at that university right now but then you're a graphic artist. You're not an artist right and those lines were drawn like this. That was a real thing. So these guys had to go to critiques and stand up in front of a bunch of art students who like kids who didn't have any mastery of the form but had learned a slap pain around and fool their teachers and these guys knew how to figure they knew how to draw. They knew how they knew. They knew they were artists. And they were getting for it right like you know because the things they liked were the low right comic books wrestling horror movies. And so there was an antipathy towards art. Yeah so the definition of antipathy is a natural basic or habitual repugnance or aversion. Yes so not. Apathy antipathy means people are disliking it. Meet Bob Gorman. He was once one of those disillusioned Virginia Commonwealth University Art Students. When I grew up our red marvel comics and stuff. I didn't understand the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIGH AND LOW. Art Dobbs one of mad scientists behind chances are if you've seen it on stage at Guar show. Bob Gorman was probably involved with building it in the band at their shows you see him onstage Bob as bones. Napper the cave troll and all that stuff the costumes the props. That's the kind of stuff. Bob was interested in making when he went to. Art Art schools. Come a long way where skulls or cool you know thing. Weird monsters are cool. When I went to art school in the eighties. That was like no. They were still stuck with like all. My teachers had gone to school in the sixties. So they were like. Oh anything. That's a representational. No de so timeout. What's representational art? Okay time for an art history lesson what did I just draw It's a person holding a microphone right. That's exactly what it is that's why representational it represents a real thing in art like that kind of fell out of vogue in the sixties instead things got abstract minimalism pop art installations really high concept stuff that his teachers came up learning about. It wasn't really about you know drawing a person that really looked like person so back to Bob. He wasn't having the best art school experience but he was enjoying Richmond's nightlife. I was going to see music like six nights a week and I saw war with surfers and that was where I was just like. No this is this is this is what I like to do. And so bob started hanging out around these guys and working for them building props costumes and buying lots of latex and so the more I started working in the slave pit the last I was like I would go to art school and be like I'm paying money for this. We did he say slave pit. Yeah the slave pit is the name of this art collective that Guar grew out of. It's also a physical place. It's like the groups clubhouse so bob had to make decision about his future. That dropped out right before I actually because I was either that or miss going to Europe with war and I was like well. Screw that so. And it's eight to say he's pretty happy with his decision father's been doing this for thirty years making elaborate costumes props for Guavas live show at their headquarters the slave pit and it was probably a good time to check and we actually say slave pit on. Npr. I think so. I mean it's proper name and everything else engorge universe. It's supposed to be over the top either way when we heard about this place we had to go check it out. The magic happens incredible. So when you walk into the sleep hit at first. It seems almost civilized. There's places to sit a coffee table a boardroom than a giant eyeball. Huge bugs decapitated heads a suit of armor monsters body dangling from a chain and the ceiling if felt like Willy Wonka factory for monsters and horror movies. And things we really shouldn't say on the radio the woodwork on the foul assists lovely. The reason they're laughing isn't because it's funny well it is it's because that's not woodwork. Yeah this is just couch. Cushions stuff is just saw. Scouted couch cushions. And then you have a tray molds that you pulled rubber off of and then you really incredible how they take common household objects and then turn them into pieces of art into their costumes into their crops. And they're fallacies Phallus fallow that everything else. Show you what I was talking about. So we take couch cushion like this. Cut It on the band. Saw like this let sandwich to make a spike the metal spike so then to see gets mother idea. So let's say we're going to be like a big square. So once I figured out that you can say Info. I got this thing going and so that was rubber. Looks Nice and clean. This is legit shot class. They've got all the machinery the tooling the mold. Everything you would expect from a top notch customer or fabricated. This is five gallons. There are also giant buckets. Latex around okay so I I have to talk about this. I was amazed how much science happens particularly with the latex. They're like legit engineers. There's whiteboards with latex making formulas based on how hot is going to be where they're playing right so it doesn't fall apart on stage when they're running around and shooting this thing. What's the ball driver? The Bile Bile driver is what they shoot blood and other stuff that you with during the show. It looks like a big green gooey. Junk Yard. Gatling guy it's got two nozzles so it could shoot rhetoric but it's a good way to just get a lot of not. You don't need to have a lot of exposition. Most of the time. Something comes out Massa's with US. We kill it and it's just. How do you get blood on the kids? This is just like there was a song called Baal driver. And we're like Oh let's just make these two big gross alien Goo guns just. There's no reasoning to it. It doesn't matter. You just hosing the audience down now. I'm picturing you at that show in the pit getting sprayed with fake blood. What the heck is going on okay? So during their shows they bring audience members of on stage and then they bring other figures sometimes they dress parts of their crew as famous people and politicians and then the blood sacrifice just shows say that they don't need a ton of exposition but there is an entire story here. Guar are a group of warriors from another planet. They call themselves the scum dogs of the universe and all of their albums and all of their shows. They kind of revolve around this theme and Guitarist. Mike Derks who plays the character Balzac the jaws of debt points out the characters they create are often reflections of who they are as real people. So any flaw that you have as a human being tried to bring that on stage and make it worse so Mike. What are your loss. Oh actually I'm not a very outgoing person. So my character on stage has the jaws of death that covers face and I'm sort of you know separated from it and when forced to sit back and watch everyone else makes mistakes around the onstage. Even though I know better I'm still not going to go through the troubled to correct them. Mike Derks is one of the longest serving members of Guar. He also runs the GUAR mailing list. Because that's how it works if you remember this band. Yeah you do everything that makes guar go. You've sent emails you make costumes. Sometimes you might even leave the band and come back. That's what Mike Bishop did. In my case I came back because they died right. Dave is Dave Brockie the original lead singer and founder of Guar who passed away in twenty fourteen so that means there are no original members of the band. Guar doesn't happen in music very often now. It's pretty unusual. But as Bob Gorman explains with Guar no one person is bigger than the concept of the Pan out. Do you justify going on without any original members and I was like well. You know once again. Snl and mad magazine. You know there's a spirit. That's the original spirit. We haven't changed the Group. It's about you know subversive underground Weirdo art. Know counterculture all the way and like that since day one two now and you know those people understand mad magazine was the same thing for over. Fifty National Lampoon. Yeah people understand that. And when I say that to be like was he was different castes. But it's the same thing people were like. Oh Yeah okay I understand. This is a rare bird a group of artists that work as members of the band as as equal partners in this project. Like you know people talk about like war last forever and the answer is it will last as long as the artists that make the stuff want to keep doing it. Not The musicians. It's the artists who want to keep doing it. Like you know if if they're still willing to make the stuff and still be around a lot of times when people find out what Gore's really about and not what they think it's about they're like Oh my God. This is incredible. Yeah people think they think he has Heavy metal show. Yeah Yeah it is but but that's not all it is heavy metal. Show so count down. That was cool. It was really cool there if you want to dive deeper with Guar. There's a wonderful visual encyclopedia of the band. It's called let there be Guar that it was compiled by Bob Gorman and Roger Gasman and it weighs about eight hundred pounds and if you ever see them live make sure you wear a fresh white tee shirt. Thanks to the members of Guar for letting hang out and a big thank you to our wonderful world cafe producer. John Meyers for putting this piece together. We'll be back in a moment on world cafe.

Bob Gorman Group Richmond World Cafe Virginia Europe Mike Bishop Mike Vikings Virginia Commonwealth Universi Mike Derks mad magazine crack cocaine Art Dobbs CA Bob World Wrestling Foundation University of Virginia Virginia Wealth University
And The Winner Is...Science!

Short Wave

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

And The Winner Is...Science!

"Here's something you may not know. Science people are some of the most competitive people around think about it. Many scientists have to compete heat against each other to get the grant money they need for research and being the first to discover. Something is a big deal which brings me to my next point this month every. NPR PODCAST is competing to see who can get the most listeners to donate to their local public radio station. And while I have some amazing colleagues colleagues who do very fine podcasts here at NPR. I want to crush like bucks so help us do that. Go to donate the NPR dot org slash short to find your local public radio station and give donate that NPR dot org slash short tiny little. Bugs you're listening to shortwave shortwave from NPR tomorrow. Night the shortwave team is going to be paying attention to the Miss America Competition Russian. Yeah you heard me. There's one contestant in particular will be looking out for Camille Schreier. She was crowned Miss Virginia. This past summer in which he did then back in June caught our attention and set herself apart from all the other contestants it was during the talent portion in the competition of course there were singing dancing but then Camille a twenty four year. Old Pharmacy Student walked out on stage in a white lab coat and goggles. I've I love science since I was a little girl. And now I have the opportunity to pursue what she did next Saturday talent she performed or you helped her win the pageant and my a little science communication heart today on the show how Camille combined her love of science with her love of pageants to win Virginia and maybe fingers crossed the big crowd tomorrow. Night okay okay. So let's back up last year. Camille Schreier was working on her pharmacy degree at Virginia Commonwealth University. It was tough. She was feeling that Grad school pressure Grad. That's cool phase a lot really kind of the volume and speed at which information comes out you. I can't describe it as drinking from a fire hydrant. But Commute wanted to make time for one more passion and as a teenager she stopped competing in pageants to concentrate on school but she never forgot her dream to compete in Miss America but there were things holding me back. I did not have a performing talent and there was a swimsuit competition which I didn't feel like represented what I wanted to do right. You know. I'm a confident person. But I don't feel feel the need to be judged on my physical appearance. Were especially my body in swimsuit but then in two thousand eighteen. The day of the Miss America swimsuit competition are art over Miss America Organization throughout the swimsuit competition. Miss America is now saying bye-bye Bikini that gone. I said okay. Well you know the only thing holding me back the talent and so my mom she said you have a lot of talent. It's just that you don't have anything that's you know performing talent So I took that as a challenge. Because I'm thinking okay I I do have talent. I'm scientists and I have some pretty good public speaking skills so I tried to combine that in a way that would be engaging and entertaining painting and what is more engaging and entertaining than a science demonstration. Nothing the answer is nothing. Yep that's the talent Camille performed at Miss Virginia. Yeah the thing that I I really wanted to do with get kids excited so that was what I designed this to look like. Science is all around us. So it's good. Camille walks across the stage in her lab coat and goggles. She steps up to a makeshift lab with three large flasks on a table. Now in its are concentrated. Hydrogen Peroxide side food coloring and. I don't remember. Camille is a pharmacy student. She's doing some pretty advanced chemistry at school but her plan here is to. Wow the judges with a simple apple and clear demonstration of a chemical reaction. Something kids could understand. In this case she chooses to demonstrate the breakdown of Hydrogen Peroxide Aka a catalytic decomposition had list or chemicals that are used to speed up reactions. And we're about to watch is the catalytic decomposition of hydrogen peroxide. I you can't she. She picks up a bottle full of potassium iodide. I'm about to pour in potassium iodide my catalyst which will start the breakdown. The second the potassium iodide hits the Hydrogen Jin Peroxide huge plumes of green blue and red foam. Shoot up into the now. This reaction is very simple. It only produces three things water. Oxygen gas the the reaction on stage is really fun because I dish open there and so that creates foam that traps all those gases that are released. And that's what creates sat doc. Big Plume of Foam. That comes out so the reaction is really fun to do. I will tell you that the the scariest part of it standing there is to make sure that I. Don't you get hit with the foam that full coloring too. So I'll look like a green monster for the rest of the day all around that. Don't you feel like you would have represented science little better if you would have planned it for weeks gone out. There accidentally punched a beaker over in the first minute it crashes into the ground you scream out loud. We're going to try again tomorrow. And then walked off the stage that would actually probably really representative of what real science looks. Looks like But I was concerned that people might look at me and say this isn't a talent. Were you worried about how people were going to react. I was. It's something so so nontraditional in this type of realm that you know you're not sure especially in Virginia which is typically a very conservative state Very traditional Shnell in terms of the Miss America Organization. And so I come in here with a science demonstration. And I'm unsure if this is going to be you know received well well and I think what I was able to do was to you know still have some of those traditional aspects of Miss America in terms of having those really strong public speaking skills and being able to engage kids and so I think that that was how I was successful in this right and I think anybody who's done any science education worked with with kids would agree that communicating science to children is a skill for me. I love working with kids because if you try to communicate science to them and you do a bad job. They're like no. This is stupid and I hate you. You know what I mean I agree with you and I call in the back of my mind that I would be able to inspire you know one young girl that was like like myself who loved science to see that they could you know put on hair and makeup and where beautiful dresses but they could also do science that those two were exclusive loosened love each other. Because that's really who I am and so. I hope that that would be an out. Come in the back of my mind but I never expected it to be this big and and I think the audience that you're reaching maybe isn't necessarily there for science. You know what I mean so I think one thing that I'm really think is important is trying to reach audiences that haven't already selected for science. Yes and I think the other side of that is also true in realm of people that were never interested in the Miss America Organization. Who are people of science are now watching? Well can I ask you about that because I think a lot of our listeners would still push back a little bit and say hey. We know that Miss America's has removed the swimsuit competition and they're more focused on interviews and performances. But it's still there's so many aspects or there's parts of that thing that still feel to us us that maybe this isn't super empowering to women even though they may be removed the swimsuit competition. How would you respond to that this type of an organization Asian for me it gives me a create about because I'm not someone who has a lot of artistic? You know things that I do in my in my free time but I think that the skills that it gives young women and to be able to go out and talk to sponsors to gain confidence in public speaking and talking on stage and the other thing is that the scholarship ship money that this organization provides is just fantastic. There were seventy five thousand dollars scholarship money. They were given out in Virginia alone this year. Ah I was able to get more than twenty thousand of those so I don't know how that's not empowering before saying goodbye to Camille. I had to ask if she she makes the final cut for the big competition tomorrow night. will she do another science demonstration. Absolutely apple it's same way same on different one. You know that's going to be determined. I don't WanNa give anything my Gosh. Give me a little hint Camille. It's GonNa be a chemistry demonstration but it will be in the venue. That is much larger. Ben where I competed for Miss. Virginia the things might have to be larger. Body is what you're saying potentially UH MS Eric. Thanks again to Miss Virginia Camille Shrimp Good Luck Tomorrow night. This episode was produced by Rebecca Davis edited by Vietnam. I'm Maddie Safai and we're back tomorrow. With more shortwave from NPR

Camille Schreier Miss America Organization America Miss America Competition Russi NPR Virginia Miss Virginia Miss Virginia NPR Virginia Commonwealth Universi Maddie Safai apple representative Ben Rebecca Davis Vietnam seventy five thousand dollars twenty four year
A Look Inside Spacebomb Studios, The Creative Hub In Richmond, Va.

World Cafe

00:00 sec | 8 months ago

A Look Inside Spacebomb Studios, The Creative Hub In Richmond, Va.

"Matthew e white cuts an imposing figure. Not just physically. He's tall with long brown hair and a beard but as the founder of Richmond. Virginia's Space Baum records musically as well about eight years ago. He put out his debut album. The very first space bomb release and critically adored big inner since then space bom has grown to become a key part of Richmond's music world operating out of his sprawling warehouse in the city's Fan district. Here's Matthew we're GONNA forty five hundred square foot space. It's basically state of the art recording studio with off it. You know office and Employees Upfront. And like that is so ridiculous. If you could see the house that this started in a lot has happened here since it all began in two thousand eleven but started in a small attic has grown into something much bigger. Space bomb is a record label but they also handle management publishing production complete with their own recording studio Matt. Took me on a little tour? These look like to me. It's like a giant Marimba Zamora. Yes I'm wondering around the live room with nat where they set up bands and where artists can find almost any instrument. They could possibly want the chimes. The studio and offices are all in this one complex office in the front studios in the back and while Matthew e white may be kind of the face of Space Bomb. Two successful albums released there. It took a team to start the company and to keep it going. We'll space bomb is a record label that was founded on the idea of Richmond. Being a unique place with a unique community musicians just like at legendary music labels like stacks records. Space bomb has a house band. Matt is a part of that band and they'd play on lots of the projects recorded their. This is what they sound like all the musicians the main houseman owners of the company. So we come here. We make music and we also set and basically what amounts to board meetings and look for profit and loss statement so with which to be cleared. Some of US Honestly care more about another. I mean the point is is that like the people that own this studio and own the company and on the record label are involved in the day to day workings of the release side but also on the music making side. And I think that's been exciting. I mean the reason Steve Cropper left stax is because he asked her one percent ownership he given his life's work to building that company and they didn't give him anything has band the when you're hearing right now. They're this book musicians including Matt that came to the idea of space bomb as performers. But they had to learn the business side of things. Truth was when we started the label. it's it was such an ambitious concept that basically we had no history of doing doing it all from the artistic side or from the very complex sort of releasing and business side of a labeled. It's hard for me to say how little I knew about what is now. What the world that. I'm in now. So what do you do when you're not exactly sure what you're doing matt decided to make himself the test case as the founder of them the label on the kind of the head producer head creative? I thought that maybe I'd make a record. My own to sort of showcase. What we can do is a label. I made my first record called beginner and that sort of launched a solo career for me and unintentionally Although to be cleaned very thankful for that and that's been a nice side effect for this whole thing that album they inner was widely praised and that attention helped space. Bob Well kind of blow up a bit. It was also successful and being something that I could show too heavily press. Who was a friend of mine from Virginia Beach but was you know have starting to improve her own in Nashville? She came and signed with the label and we made her first record and You know beginner kind of kicked off the whole thing and without getting into every record we've release basically. Was that plus Natalie record that really kind of got the ball rolling for us. That song you're hearing from Natalie Press. She's continued to work with an advocate for space bomb to some trouble making her last record here. Her label who? She's not with anymore. Not Anymore was advocating for her to go to a New Yorker in La to make a record because they believe that that would be a better products and she walks for short she basically said. I'll do sessions in La with out sessions with not in that space and we'll do a blind test for like the radio people and they did a blind test for the radio people and the guys calling the shots and they were like Oh man. Now I'm sorry like we definitely have to go with this like so much better like. I'm sorry you're not going to be able to do it in a richmond. This is obviously the way to go. Which is what. Which one are you talking about this one? That's the guy first of all being enrichment and staying in. Richmond has always been very important to Matt and the label. Being here is our biggest strengthen biggest weakness a lot of people come here because they want to get out of doing things in New York. La or London or wherever but a lot of people. I think still think of it as kind of like you know. Sort of down home out of the way and maybe not like the the hip is placed to do. Make your art and I think both of those some of that works rock neighbor brought people fairly new muscle shoals that's great and then the other side of the coin. Maybe they're there because they can't be here and I think that that's just when you walk around the space bomb studios if you've got a Keanae you'll notice cardinals all over the place. A statue of a cardinal. They're painting of one here. The Cardinal is Virginia's state bird and it's their way of showing their love for where they are. Richmond itself is part of what defines the personality of this operation. I think there's a sort of a fundamental part of baseball is a like Sort of like a band of outsiders to be honest like we're in the non market city or not in La Nashville or New York We're in the south. Were not in the as far as like sort of Metropolitan Arts Communities Go. We're not in the most Sexy region broadly speaking. You know we all saw ourselves originally like as an island so space became a one stop shop providing those artists might need but couldn't find as easily in a smaller city Lake Richmond. There's always been a musician place and there's been very few industry connectors for the musicians to advocate for them to connect with them and manage them to publish them to release them. Like all those levers that it takes to get from musician to recording artist. Or whatever like there's been very few those levers in place over the last forty years and freshmen music Much less than there has been talent and there is a lot of talent in central Virginia. A lot of music makers for instance Matt and his fellow space bond founders all come from guard jazz backgrounds Matt Credits. One man and one school with having an outsized impact on the level of musicianship in Richmond Virginia Commonwealth University to State School located in Richmond. For a long time in the eighties and nineties. It was the best public music school in the country. The jazz program specifically was for famous and the justification world with a whole nother world but it was run by Manning Doug Richards who is like rattling dead poet's society. He's like a golden teacher. If anybody in this building anybody you know like with especially within the jazz community and people like that. Like why is Richmond? A special place for musicians they would say Doug Richards the first ten words that came out of their mouth. So there's Doug Richards the jazz teacher but Richmond. Like much of the South is also a place with a rich musical history that goes way beyond formal education. There's a very strong Black Gospel tradition in Richmond. The black experience in black music is the foundation the foundational truth to almost all music in America indefinitely all pop music. I mean I think of like like the Brown guys all those guys come out of the church or or still part of that. I can think of five ten guys off the top of my head that make a living now playing music come straight out of that tradition the awareness of the deep history of music. Here the love this place. Those things are important. They all factor into what they're doing at space bob records but when it comes down to it when it comes down to being an all in one kind of label and studio a big part of the music business is the business and it's all about figuring out how to make being a musician into assisting life. The reason space bombers in Richmond is not because of a like a blind local pride. It's not because I. I grew up in Richmond. And I love Richmond and die for Richmond. And I'm excited to put Richmond on the map. I am all of those things. But the reason that space by miss here is because the musicianship in Richmond. His actually better than any other place. I've ever been at if that wasn't the case I would probably be doing this somewhere else and also richmond but it is not a coincidence. That were here the reality of the the hard human resources that are here that they're pound for pound better than any places I've ever been. Thank you matthew. E White and space bomb records in Richmond. Virginia also big thanks to World Cafe senior producer Kim Jihad for putting this whole thing together. Mickey it sound so great. My name is Raine address. We'll be back in just a moment with more world cafe

Richmond Matt Credits Virginia Lake Richmond Richmond Virginia Commonwealth Matthew e founder New York Virginia Beach producer La Steve Cropper Natalie Press Doug Richards Bob Marimba Zamora stax Nashville cardinals
1038. The Who's Pete Townshend Asks A Favor From Paul McCartney

Animal Radio

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

1038. The Who's Pete Townshend Asks A Favor From Paul McCartney

"Celebrating the connection with our pets this animal radio featuring veterinarian Dr Debbie White Groomer Joy Villani news direct Lorie Brooks and now from the Red Barn Studios here are your hosts how Abrahams and Judy Francis. Judy is your calls Dr debuts the show thank you on the show thank you for calling what how can I help you well my mom has two dogs in the ugh father animal communicator joy Turner and Ernie Rodeina and it is our carbon paw print special who better on this Earth Day weekend questions at animal radio or facebook us an animal radio and I'm proud to announce a brand new APP if you have a smartphone or an iphone golden the animal radio APP you can not only listen to the show but you could send us your questions from the APP and go to our website and even call us coal ep welcome then Ed Begley Junior of course he's puffing and he'll talk about our carbon pawprint kind of other don't you just hate it when people yes I because we have our animals at work blessed to have them but I think the productivity probably goes down motivate US I take my dog with me soprano anymore stacey working hard in the newsroom wouldn't it be great if you could bring your dog to work well you might want to tell your boss about this study that was done bringing your dogs almost all the time to work and of course I can because I'm the boss you were actually out this morning on a dog walk raising money for what organization it was for the animals humane society wasn't walking I was actually the onsite first aid and you know talking about disaster preparedness for pets were can actually increase productivity and it is pretty good for morale I'll tell you about it coming up on radio news the morale part I understand that stacy so far we just had pretty much some foot pad injuries just from walking real vigorously on the asphalt and the pavement take care of those put pat injuries this baby she was actually bleeding so we cleaned it and we bandaged the pause and we put her on a restriction on the activities so she basically will have to be a couch potato for a little while which is a passion of mine but yeah so every year you always run into some emergencies something happens how two years you've had heat strokes dogfights he's looking very savell down forty eight pounds I understand almost a quarter person and you know what he's his image is kind of soprano like he's losing that image because he's not looking so uh-huh Giovanni today is going to tell you how you can wash your dog without them running out of the bathtub and running around the house all wet and everything he's working his way in the studio jarred and they're constantly digging holes all throughout the backyard and every time we put dirt in the holes they come back and I dig more holes no sometimes they lay in the great Dane and the pets that look like they're people you do such good stuff for everybody I'm so proud to have you on the team thank you glad to be here and I gotta say we got a key Tori without being go over your backyard I would walk them through the backyard I would walk them in a special way so they would so if your doctor digging in your backyard and you sometimes looking for your window and your back yard looks like artillery range in your backyard and it's happening in your presence or in the absence happening all the time as soon as we feel the whole after them they come back and dig them up again is com instant solutions number one if they can my presence I would suddenly appear and stuttle them Komo pads arrest but you know there's a lot of excitement walking really fast on pavement it doesn't have to be all that hot for them to actually do this how long does the walk it's a one mile to two mile you can kind of pick and choose next here at one eight hundred is quiet one eight six four zero five eight four zero five you can also email us at your voice animal radio dot com or send your questions tweet us way they're going to get the mentally tired and after that I I would grab the tennis ball or whatever they liked to chase and I would probably after explanation here's what you need to do number one eliminate the cause of the problem why do saw because they are bored hole but we're trying to come up with a solution how to prevent them from digging deep trenches throughout the backyard so you have three dogs and they're like two D behavior interrupt approach based on the objects flying through the air no heavy objects no chairs or tables above Latvian line because sometimes he just gets a little bit to type a personality is he is he to joy find him track them down for your call they will send it and stay away from those areas that would I do remember people and my dear listener please and if I were on the stop them from digging in my absence I would put in those holes red pepper serving available radio is brought to you by the Grain Free Red Bar naturals kid and food for dogs and cats it's always made in the USA with natural functional ingredients to support your pets go ahead of me ahead of me I turn around and snap the leash I wanna make sure they worry about me I will make sure they know it's my backyard people and if they're gonNA do sit stay in downstate because it's control exercise wanted me to stay takes as much energy like one mile Tehran in other words I would do some obedience training in the backyard is missing parrot back thanks to craigslist thirty five year old Jason Strong couldn't bear to think of never finding his eight month old Amazon Parrot but the in US few devices number one my choice would be bet convinced sir air spray device will spook them number two I out of his beloved dino becoming a meal for another animal was unbearable strong has cerebral palsy and his caregiver had taken dino to visit some friends and able to lots of people place online ads for love or maybe to sell their used car but a heartbroken bird lover view what you said great advice yet by name convene select convince someone convinced her that's very cool stuff. They were sitting at a pool dino perched on her arm when he suddenly took off flying something you've never done before they made flyers and put an ad on Craig's past life I'm Brit savage for animal radio and be able to handle radi mode controllable devices on them electronic cholera get a push the button or citronella activate the color by name direct stopper parakeet named Pharaoh a cockatiel named willow and Akon your name spirit he explained some people are cat people some people are dog people maybe I was a bird that working number two would use throwing cans next to them next to them not at them but next to them with and if they do something wrong I gotta just push the button and they're gonNA be scuttled they will think well my gosh what happened here okay because they have no other Jap to do what the body would do well they would put leash and collar on each dog and I would mark my weekly fair tire duck duck outta that point after that things I am expecting them not to d.c however if they steal d.c that's m-a-l health you could learn more at Red Barn Dot Com and thank you red barn for underwriting animal radio dogs cats horses or EMU Korea actively sometimes they say some things next client Theo thank you does the found bird ad on craigslist when she saw the lost bird one she returned d-notice strong weary happily found the place on strong's wheelchair right next to it's coming from both you and your pets seventy nine percent give their pets holiday and birthday presents fifty percent of those actually throw a birthday celebration parties and seventeen sowed raising their hand just like a painting can like we're seeing Michigan a pup can in California they say so the can five six painters eight percent of US sometimes dress our pets you've probably heard about the Labra doodle that looks like a lion I listen to some of the nine one one calls just you know model chiefs landscaping stones people they've done everything to me those scream list about the missing parrot but we're expecting too much meanwhile an employee from Hyundai Motors found dino in a parking lot at work she was just going to ah seen them literally dive through the window to get into car thinking a lion as after them stuff spun we all love to humanize hire family can enjoy a road trip to find the best vacation spot four spot subscribe to Fido friendly the travel and lifestyle magazine for you and your dog where each issue includes the people okay and after that if that will not work I got to spend them KGB and that GonNa put Arne he tells me he's got dogs and he doesn't believe in ever putting him on a leash and he says you know why here's why would you wanna be on a leash I already know the answer but just for the heck of it I asked him about nita fix of a good stuff get more animal radio with the free animal radio APP for iphone and Android is hotel and destination reviews where both you and Fido are welcome go online to FIDO friendly dot com find out what all the barkings search go boy I said Dude come on you're going to get them all wound up and I've taught him he needs to become here's the irony he tells me he knows how calm and mellow and well behaved my dog is what you and your PA- can do so it's a lot of fun and you get to see I wanna dog personalities that's what I love about it you get to see the Little Chihuahua plane inject himself with testosterone apparently is that healthy yea I do not condone the use of that kind of steroid you never know it is animal radio famous Russian dog was just went to the bathroom dogs don't we give them human emotions I was at soccer on Saturday and this guy comes up and says pet your dog I said sure he commenced acting like a nut oh you're a good boy roles knowing the rules make some common happy he knows what I expect of him and he always gets to come along because of that anyway if you WanNa pet a strange dog ask permission and then be mellow her and I thought that another direction and I gotTa Keep Kim running back and forth people being so they could get their little bit tired more physically now they're mentally tired now why are you trying to do some up like that I said buddy you gotta be calm when you pet a dog just mellow you don't WanNa act like his head is the hope diamond course he doesn't get it or he doesn't WanNa get it and here's more certainly be very vigilant flea control so sometimes we do have to combine different methods so there are different topical that you can use there's even oral medications oh about it admit it you love your dog and he is part of the family so when choosing your next vacation don't forget Fido we just a little planning the do you bring your dogs out there's no of course not I can't bring him anywhere I can't control them they might knock down kit or an old woman of course he doesn't hear what he's saying I said look my dog is here with me says well to help kind of squash that flea life cycle so one bite of a flea will cause persistent itching for a long time so you WanNa make shared take them lots of places people don't even notice him they're happy to see him kids can come up and pat him and he's not locked up in the house all alone by himself and the reason for this is because he knows the route at that is being addressed completely secondary to that when we're talking about diet it there's more to hypoallergenic diets in dealing with the two items and they're gonNA toss one and Tech Garon and after maybe one of them grab and run around with each other and I I will show them in other on the have here testosterone or so I don't know how that works let's head to the phones we have Bryan on the phone for Debbie Dr Debbie I'm sorry Brian how're you doing great thank you unique new proteins at the pets immune system hasn't seen yet things like kangaroo things like rabbit base diets those are kind of some of the more new and upcoming address the root cause of the problem there bore they have no job to do the more you work proactively the less you will need to that is going to be the cure for pets with allergies well guess what dogs can be allergic to other proteins other than grains so we need to keep that in mind and pets have food allergy then just switching the Diet going to grain free grain free right now is kind of the big catch all that all the pet food manufacturers are trying to throw out there like maybe time to go through your veterinarian and see about using more of a hypoallergenic diet there are what we call novel protein diets that are capturing and in dealing with those pets that have food allergies so those two things would be if you haven't gone through the prescription level foods and you've just I will protein diets there's another school of thought which is called hydrolysed protein diets in these are a little bit more expensive but they sometimes have the best Opportunity Aquatic Ryan Abebe lion everything uses owner when people see Charlie the dog walk and they really freak out yeah the reason I'm calling is My Dog She Australian shepherd mix and she's had this scratching problem since her birth basically and aide buying different ones at the pet store that would be my recommendation is to get really serious about that dietary management and then really tackle that flea control L. Shampoo and I just don't know what to do anymore she constantly scratches an inches and biting her you know her legs and is there any kind of for dogs to have bacterial and yeast infections on top of a chronic skin problems so they can have allergies and they also have infections on the surface so when coat quality in the skin quality but also can help to kind of as a mild anti inflammatory for the skin so I would add that in as well ask about sprays and things like that yeah I might but it's really going to depend on what I see on your pet surface if I pick up a interesting odor because you know and then the final thing if you're not already doing it as I love using omega fatty acids it's a natural anti inflammatory that can help with not only the being we're all waiting here one eight six six four five eight four zero five good day animal lovers it is time for your resident party animal and that is Elian idea and she said yes she comes over once a week and we let the dogs play in the yard and then we get to catch up we also have a yappy hour she said and I said excuse me she goes be me Vinnie Penn just hung up the phone with my sister who lives out in Las Vegas she had to go because she was having what she called a play date name you come up with whatever guys this is an excuse for you to get drunk with your girlfriend under the ruse that you care about Iran people say less is more at Red Barn we think less is better it's what you won't find that sets are natural premium pet food apart no byproducts no corners shampoo or something I could get for yeah so now I gotta ask us having any actual source of hair loss the best find it in your local pet specialty store dryer chicken rolled food as a meal or shredded as a topper toy no fillers just the natural ingredients your pets need to live the healthy life they deserve look at the label we want you to read Bar naturals pet food simply dog steer the car yet V our Vinnie Penn party animal animal radio animal radio art talent cable thirty three percent of US pet owners talked about pets on the phone with the answering machine when we're away sixty two percent of a sign letters and cards so it looks like lab mix was disaster preparedness after all he lives with his owners just south east of San Francisco where you have to be aware earthquakes and other natural disasters Jasper in humans belong to troop one ninety eight in Santa Clara they've earned eighteen badges altogether each has made him a better dog they say if there's an emergency we know he's GonNa listen to me there are six hundred eighty two dogs scouts who belong to thirty eight troops across the country the organization has about eighty badges dogs aren't required sisters I don't know I never inquired about the sex of the animal when a dog is introduced into a family but she said yeah we're having a play date with the dogs and I said well this this is it's good that she doesn't have a lot of sewers and she doesn't have a lot of other secondary problems but for me I always like to do a little skin surface check because is very common you know we can hopefully get your baby a little bit more comfortable and I would say give her a scratching the ear but I don't want to get her scratching for you it's very heartbreaking for me to hear an anti greasing shampoo for those pat so a little bit of having that is in the news of the veterinarian kind of helping Guide through some of these choices might be really helpful there Ulsan thirteen years ago you'd like to belong membership twenty five bucks a year Ohio animal owners are roaring over a bill that would institute some strict regulations that could result in me we should help them enjoy their time with us as much as we can for dogs let us learn new things that we become more helpful both serve as an inspiration for the group's grossest edge you can imagine what that is clean up America it consists of picking up piles left behind by other dogs on trails parks and beaches the organization was founded by Lonnie sponsored by Zanesville Republican Senator Troy Alderson the bill would create a list of wild animals that would be deemed dangerous including big cats bear some primary any wild animals being taken away from their owners animal owners activism pet organizations packed a hearing room in Columbus to testify against Senate bill three ten the legislation resulted from the tragedy last October near Zanesville where Terry Thompson led his fifty six wild animals loose thompson sixty to release the it's certain types of snakes the bill would establish stringent permitting policies and eliminate the private purchase of dangerous wild animals in the state that would take effect January first originally bears lions and tigers from their cages and then he committed suicide a Seattle resident leaving little doubt that he's a huge golf fan rest Berkman told sports radio station Friday every every remedy you can imagine but I've changed her food now I've recently purchased the grain free will and I've given her baths old there's no hair loss she just constantly each's her back and her hind legs and her her legs rear legs but now where I live I live in radio dot com this has been an animal radio news update get more at animal radio dot com earn badges beyond the first one for basic obedience and appropriately called the dog scout badge the scouts have a couple of models for humans are dogs lives are much shorter than our own you're listening to animal radio you can learn more at animal radio DOT COM log on learn more aww he's talking to the truth or if you're just making crap yeah who knows yellen today I think that has something to do with the testosterone I think when he starts yelling he he thinks he needs to load up Ernie Rodeina and it's our Earth Day Special Ed Begley Junior just around the corner and this portion of animal radio is brought to you by thunder shirt if your dog or cat is afraid of noises or vet visit it's or just being left alone thunder shirt constant gentle pressures the simplest solution for calming them it's easy to use it's drug free and it only costs thirty nine ninety five live let's also go to line four where we have debbie on the phone for Vlada Hey Debbie what's going on I have a you've heard of the girl scouts and boy scouts have out the dog scouts of America they've got badges and camp outs cookie drives and troops in twenty two states the dog scouts she get any kind of infection going on about that I'm aware that I could see and I do checker thoroughly he's not missing any hair like like if you have managed or something KTAR that he made his dog throw up after he discovered the animal at Eton his tickets to this year's Masters Tournament Berkman returned home one day discovered that his dog snapped on he then contacted the masters provided photographic proof they didn't want him to send the tickets understand that why and he attempted to get some new W. loves to Pico odors and sometimes there can be very kind of greasy or oily odors that we can get with some dogs and we might use more of an anti Subarea type shampoo else and drive the little guy home drunk I've met her friend Marie before I could see her prop and her dog up in her lap and having that kits animal radio one eight six six zero five eight four zero five that is a good solution now you can buy yours at pet stores or thundershower dot com and in fact let's go ahead and give away one right now at one eight six six four zero five eight four zero five ashes well they obliged as a result he got to go to the masters and everybody lived happily ever after I'm Stacey Cohan get more animal breaking news at me Hi this is Jennifer Fisher on animal radio please May neuter your animals this is an animal radio news update I'm Stacey Cohan for Animal Radio Yuppie our you know we have drinks crack open a couple of bottles of wine and I thought to myself this is not a play for dogs or the matter what clever all four of his tickets won't rather than call off his trip he fed the dog hydrogen peroxide I guess it's safe for animals he dug out all the pieces of the tickets from the dogs vomit of America even has a motto or two as the Half Human Half Hound Organization goes about the business of doing good deeds one of the first badges for Jasper he's a three year old Cali with her dog she has a girlfriend who got the same dog same time is her they're technically the dogs are brothers and brother and sisters Oh you had an excuse me omega fatty acids the fish based oils which are the natural innate inflammatory so you got a lot you can try I think three to Dr Debbie Blondie of the world famous Russian Dog Wizard Joey Villani Dogfather Joey Baloney you always got to put the dogfather before that animal communicator joy Turner or South Texas and there are a lot of plea at ticks down there so I do give Whiteman every month I was giving her a veteran three but I can't find that anymore but now I changed her ointment but I don't know if he has something to do with it or I don't know what's causing if it'd be honest it's like that all her life she's like eight years old though well two things would really work on one putting a place in the studio what in the world famous Russian dog wizard who with some kind of injection with him today I don't know what that's about Joy Villani the traffic that and I I feel like she did misery to be honest but I'll certainly try those things you recommend that I really really appreciate that thank you for the call this is Dr about seven years old she's part Cat Hula and part Chinese Shar Pei and my God Oh yeah Oh yeah she's she's she's she's confused at times because she it was whatever the Blue Tongue yeah yeah yeah oh yeah she's got a blue tongue and she's got it has just google the product by name Beth convinced Sir you cannot be wrong with that you push the button air like a trigger aim no marvel chips no beans no landscaping stones because people did everything to me so put it inside close that whole with masking tape and suddenly without raising your hand grab something scream you one question would be how can I stop my dog Fraum picking up things in her mouth that she's not supposed to have oh yes oh yes oh that's impo simple just car wreck just remember just repeat after me I we have to learn it to do so how we can correct the dog frog grabbing the wrong things you can use one of two approaches you can toss under-floor like shaking Ken the females dog better than meals but let's stick to the point well if it's happening my last question please yes no is it happening in your presence I guess so air just and start 'til your dog I guarantee you that will work if I were in your living living room right now from the floor or picks them up off the table she picks them up off the floor her favorite thing dirty socks because she thinks she's going to get a treat correct redirect brace tell me debuted correct range erect pray correct from which you don't want the dogs somebody was something in her mouth and at first it started out she would pick up something and my mom would give her a treat for that cute well now it's caused to where that's stupid can everybody drug trainer were telling you about which never works and how it works you have to put inside five six panes no dimes I think sideways next to the dock if a touch your shoulders that's not a bad thing to okay because eight that personal space lean toward as you say freeze after the cameras on the floor freezing means if you don't stop it's not just about pausing you have to act you have to act like a dog Ima actress scream move forward in the she knows what she can have and what she can't have she knows that if she gets something she's not supposed to have that she gets a treat for it which has been something my mom has been doing and I mean okay don't say about race don't say about politics black lab is our best and maybe who you know chocolate lop is dumb and we thought could sense of taste we humans the difference luckily different sometimes the dogs do it to get human attention but let's withstand the subject very cheap push the button air comes under on that startled the dog in from that time redirected which you want you to do what you need Um psychic hotline sometimes people just keep complaining and if you really wanted to resolve this issue number one sit down your mom and if you don't drop it I will bite you doc language dog leash but of course if it's still difficult just you know what grab that pet convince her get convinced sir not work and it doesn't work because you didn't do it properly I will not argue with your let me tell you what will work for you just the world famous trainer and he told me you're wrong okay and you can give you my phone number I can talk to her to thank you for calling us I'll try to see let's take one for doctor gave me we have to live a healthy life they deserve look at the label we want you to read bar naturals pet food simply the best find in your local pet specialty store Chizik difficult because a lot is personality is a larger than this world in their bring a knowledge from different perspectives and I'll show whenever aw find us at animal radio DOT COM log on learn more people say lasts is more at Red Barn we think less the giant grain free Rhode food it's protein packed with less risk of food sensitivity radio baby letter it's what you won't find that's our natural premium pet food apart no byproducts no corn or soy fillers just the natural ingredients your pets need because you're giving a two dollars ticket for speech violation that's what that's okay thank you can't you're listening to animal radio I'm concerned you at this time you know the next day he actually walked out of the vet underneath his own power and doing great the hardest and I was wondering how soon is too soon to let him go to the groomer and get himself cleaned up these kind of getting the to do you wanna you just grab some toy we always talk on this station about zere endless chew that's amazing thing too you just trouble so yeah are you having difficulty keeping him from doing things at this point now yeah we yeah well he did rip out all stitches after seven days but people say I'm not surprised when we'd says he he may have about my mom's about five and a half year old golden doodle all righty well he had surgery about six weeks ago walking him up the stairs on the lead we've never had to harnesses back but we are having a hard time keeping them down like when he sees other dogs out the window he wants to run around the living room four okay Axa dory socks or dead fish it has different issues that don't have very specific sense like our the debut you know she keeps her nose and the kind of bets but using those for the detection of the disease the dogs have completely different looking here is and say mom I love you dearly but here's what it is I mean this is the behavior is bothering me okay I love you but I don't want you to do that I spoke with what we term a Goofy retriever syndrome I'm sorry I've coin because I have one myself goofy retriever yeah prone except the slow leg out from underneath him and then he can really move yeah well with the dog recovers from cheap yellow surgery normally the healing time we're looking at about two to three months out and about eight weeks after the surgery is when ideally we ought to get an x ray to see no no that's interesting for me my friends without even personal when sometimes people culture me and I'm hearing pillows surgery is done for that have a ruptured cruciate ligament which is one of the major ligaments in the knee so just like a football player that blows out there back as far as we can for your typical standard type grooming that being said there are some dogs that I have to get some kind of grooming done whether they're just stinky match in the bathing Tub because that's very important we don't want slipping losing his footing in any way in jumping in and out of a tub is horrible friends in whether or not we want to give you kind of free rein to get into some of the grooming activities I'd have to say because he has goofy retriever syndrome and then we might push that Matt at one eight six six four five eight four zero five welcome to the show Matt thanks how are you all today good doctor Debbie I've got a question right kill even take something off the table that you know she knows she's not supposed to have lived they do in one sentence if you could matt turn and making that catch jogs jumping off a couch you're catching a Frisbee blow out the same way so so you're Dougie rupture that now how's he getting along what happens I'll nothing to try to do it yeah I I know well I when I'm around I can do and when I'm around I can like be forceful enough and make her drop whatever she has and she thing is keeping him calm wants to jump on everything and I gotTa Yeah it's that's the hardest part of it he amazingly quite the mission picks up a picture she makes everything doesn't your methods do not work obviously they don't you know and consequently Duck Debbie this is the one I called you on about two and a half months ago that I wanted to get a second opinion on him I thought it was a bad diagnosis and because the play was that too long lasting thor instead of driving your nuts by grabbing some dirty socks so correct the how the bone is healing because there is a belief involved with that and we WANNA make sure that there's good healing callous of that bone there that might make some if if it seems like it's a something they can pull off without risk of injury then it may be okay but for these really Sylvia if you want I mean normally is to be done but my mom I need to correct the dog too me we are we do get taken our our half of our bed and put it downstairs as to keep them off the stairs you know now I think you will feel so I'm GonNa have to explain for House Surgery Unit question was coming kind of hard to slow down when he wants to go real fast he just lift the leg up and then hopped around on three it's kind of a sterile you know he get your fix of animal radio anytime you want with the animal radio APP for iphone and android download it now it's made possible by fear free pets taking the pet petrified visit them at fear free happy homes DOT com? Judy is just running in the studio with another question this is from Sammy this is also for Vlada wow what is getting all the questions I have a seven year old men pin with men pin six year old Dobie Dobie what is that rag on their face and I call it the Doggie spa so they come in and get warm towels and I put on their face and they push shove and push their way up they get their ears dirty from you know being post-surgery or what have you if we do have to get him to a groomer or do a home bathing there are some precautions that I would do and when is to use a non stick Doberman Okay six-year-old Doberman a month away from having my first baby and I was wondering what is the best way to introduce my new baby to the family well because introduced the baby to the new family needs to before you bring the baby you need to bring babies diapers and let the dog sniffer and Yeah and cute it turns out that it was you did I did go get that second opinion years the best doctor around that's why we we don't have to worry about the up and down and that helps to kind of make us feel better about that whole experience and then you know your dog and New Your groomer paying for a dog after this type of surgery so if possible we'd try to either do this I even based some dogs in dog runs at the office is cleaning at the Doggie spa so even something as simple as that may make make him feel good and you know just like us you gotta look good to feel good so Sir Michelin pilot challenge beginning with a four hour endurance challenge powered by a four cylinder engine producing three hundred and fifty horseback and we'll use would be to record the baby's cry you know in the hospital and bring it in and play them play and let them sniff ball and the next best way would be of them jumping coworker of you in the number two to create positive perception was this new baby rival Of course Louis addition to its motorsports program by unveiling all you must have three race car Mazda three TCI will hit the racetrack as pot of the twenty twenty famous Russian dog wizard fixing those most vaccine dog issues and Dr Debbie helping you with your veterinary medical questions thank you a lot of people ask you about their human questions too. I noticed you were in the hallway with our sales manager answering questions about a goiter or something you know you're only license every day celebrating the connection with our pets this is animal radio featuring veterinarian Dr Debbie White groomer joy guaranteed everyday low prices an excellent customer service for professional parts people you can trust stop by your local o'reilly auto parts today a rally auto parts better parts better prices best advice would be train the puppy and older dog prior to bring the baby because that's what we're really sharp increase decrease any blooms in this connotation here's the top news story I'm Nick Miles Mazda Motor sports announced the nobody more appropriate than Ed Begley Junior he's such a big conservative guy he saves all kinds of electricity and everything he's very carbon when you come home was the new baby simultaneously giving you puppies and you know both Dokan poppy and new set of choice number one you will distract them with that to buy those cookies what about dogs Scouts Dog Scouts of America is your dog the dog scout of America well they have troops all over this country any news director Lorie Brooks and now from the Red Barn Studios here are your hosts Halley rooms and Judy Francis Dream Team Britt retrievers I I would push off the true grooming until we're cleared by the doctor that everything's healed that sounds good you know I can deal with most of it is just as in La and everything he tells us he spends three hundred dollars a year on utilities wow we do that at a day here paddle shift a six speed transmission vinyl new Mazda three CR reviews our autumn expert dot com fecal reilly auto parts for all of your car care needs we're close convenient and known for unfriendly he is a bus pass believe in an La bus pass actually uses it can you imagine being an actor and using a bus pass traveling around the he's got his lawn for animals right no I get that all the time where people are you know what I kinda liked better than my human doctor can you give you get a look at this Molin right there and you know I think the important thing is when we use pain relievers that are in that class such as remodel the non-steroid based pain relievers we really just have to make can you can download the APP for your smartphone it's android friendly and iphone friendly so check that out what's going on Anthony Ernie Rodeina answering your questions animal communicator joy Turner Bridge that gap Dogfather Joey Villani Tony How to groom your animal's blood Oh kill one eight six six four oh five eight four zero five oh I wanted to mention this before we got into the show heads deep here brand new animal radio APP if you miss any part of the show today so you haven't already had some basic lab work done that might be something just to check 'cause sometimes will adjust the dosage or the dose frequency if a pet does in our stacey cohan working hard in the newsroom what's going on you know it was just a girl scout cookie season and it's tough to deny those girl scouts eight pounds that's while eight pounds in a week you've lost their it seems yeah you know what I was at a plateaued and dying WanNa know what you have in your water because you have a nineteen year old dog that's amazing that is phenomenal so Kudos to you you're doing right back I'm like Oh my God goes on animal radios are carbon paw prints special today I guess who's going to be on the season stars unshared for name grade is a little baby and I have grown remedy every day she's got arthritis you know she in these to jog scouts south inmates documents no men's for you joey you're on a diet now okay the APP forty have some of those kind of other issues but we'd come down to quality of life when you're nineteen year old dog so I'm all a fan of using everything at our in our arsenal so that might be oh came off but I'm on my third set of Pant size that's still nothing I don't make me too I've lost twenty three pounds for me and you look in good activities so if she still can make it around the backyard or make it around the block we want to keep doing that keep that muscle tone up that's really doing today doing good great got a question got a question how you doing today Hey I'm pretty good what can I help you I've got a nineteen year old often we're doing a couple things one is make sure we're not causing any harm so there yes there is potential for causing problems but I wanna make sure and a nineteen year old dog we don't already have some problems conjunction with remedy Elena she's tolerating that in her lab work looks great hey I'm all for it I keep up with it there's there's even other things you can do beyond that important okay well she gets acupuncture once a month and she I mean it really seems to happen quite a bit you know as far as its movement so he could acupuncture and Lewd Glucose means there don't abandon that that can help but it's not gonna be in replacement of something like remedy so you you're going to want to use that you know if you start to notice any concerns or issues that should get that red flag up and you don't get that that a call and see if you have any other issues going on thank you so much how did you get there's acupuncture so she tolerates things like that or massage that can be very helpful for a dog just to keep them moving and really just keeping her and career how I sure do it sounds like you're tackling a little bit of everything helped manage pain so yeah you know there are we have to be aware there are side effects with some of these medicines but they're fighting over a ferret at a San Antonio University Sarah Civic asked the Justice Department to find our lady of the Lake University in violation of the if the overall good is outweighing that risk that's what we gotta look at and keeping your pet comfortable moving in those golden years is really what I focus on just be aware this is getting kind of crusty and I wasn't sure how to get off the air and now my dogs they love a good income you can you hear a lot of love of the roof right now one eight six six zero five eight four zero five don't forget you can walk in every good thanks for your call today Anthony we appreciate you listening to animal radio thank you so much and I really enjoy your show thank you so do I get a check for two lily is a registered service fair at that helps Sarah focus on something other than panicking the schools afraid ferret might bite another student and the justice now hey it's Vinnie Penn coming at you with another party animal installment on animal radio well did for those of you who who listen to these a furry friend nineteen year old Sarah suffers from panic attacks and before getting lily the Ferret Sarah was able to keep a job and had to drop out of college eighteen I keep on a high protein diet you see the Dow just amazing you know just a beat really well exercise hi team but she's still getting good I'm used to concern with the RIMMA deal I've tried to close this other stuff but none of it seems to really work do I want wanted to start off with with the fish as a matter of fact she actually had already she's had a turtle and a frog but they've since moved like you say you know he's great appetite guest gets filled go like twice a year and just doing great so I just you know I just just the most beautiful pink fish Stella picked her out herself picked out a great one we got the Nice little query and she dressed it up and decorated it really the segments of mine hair told you a ways back that my five year old daughter Stella she's ready for a pack she was we looked at a lot of different pets the dogs cats horses and a Mo- dive boats Hartman is now reviewing the case I'm Brit savage for animal radio and a Maldive p Eric Ins with disabilities act because they won't let her keep lily her service fair on campus the school doesn't allow ferrets but Sarah says affair is much more than this dog to the to the great shape up to nineteen years old but did you do well it's kind of a funny story actually writing down the road and it and it was unhealth up to nine hundred years old are you feeding her goal or what the dog food using I paid her a very looks at her and says I want to call her magnolia and it was really a moving moment I looked at my daughter and I thought that name is is fantastic we oh I had goldfish when I was a kid I think they were Goldfish I had to Cheech and Chong but this is called a better fish Beta fish nonetheless on and it was time to get her and other but I wanted to start her with a fish I think that's a good starting point for any four five six year old went to the pet store and we picked out the hospital they put it all back together and you know L. Nineteen years ago and just live a great life how could you manage her to be in the such a Beta fish if I'm pronouncing that correctly B. E. T. T. so it's was not essentially a goldfish I don't know this was kind of a new terrain for me even though nicely we went down to the beach earlier that morning she picked out a beautiful rock to put in the tank we're all set up she looks at the fish and it's called in Kuala Maggie for short and she smiled she thought that was a great idea we got in the car with little carrying case for the fish and Stella steered the whole way home I was saying I love you Magnolia I love you Magnolia we got home transferred her into her new home dressed it up and Stella was white I again where they have no color in there I mean she's a sweetheart but my mom kinda helps make this problem a lot worse dog she thinks that she has always dreamed ran over paid it up and took it to a vet and I you know I thought it was going to die in the bed semi took care to a but that's not good for liberal but you know it gives a good quality of life what would you made me do on remedy he'll or try to find some out he knew Astana balancing party life over you know damaged his liver but I think pretty much just keep on doing and everything is good look iron sheik she's so beautiful daddy thank you so much for buying me Dan the line and I said Dan the line what happened William she said no I I changed her name I wanna call her Danda line and I saw all right if you know Dandy for sure that kind of works right daddy will go and tell everybody about Betty then Vinnie Penn party animal animal rights. Yeah Hi this is Paul Reiser and you're listening to animal radio every minute you're here you're not harming someone else can't keep changing the name it would be like all of a sudden today if I just started calling you Sarah to it stellar applies I liked that name Sarah I cutty segments I say Stella I'm GonNa go and talk about Sarah the fish today she said what kind of fish is it any way I heard Imbaba Hey bob welcome to the show what's going on hey bob well six-month-old female English bulldog by constantly that's Huffy pads are convenient but sometimes the really gross that's why the Animal Radio Studio Stunt Dog Lady Bug uses the Brilliant Pad self-cleaning Puppy Pad You're listening to animal radio you all over if your dog is no better than your country American massive running around of international pack and peaking Chihuahuas and your do is replace the role once every few weeks and the process is fast and clean in fact lady bug gives it five paws up learn more about it at brilliant pad dot com I love how it handles number one and number two it seals away the waste and replaces dirty pads for US brilliant pad keeps her home clean and smelling fresh always no of is it a girl I always heard girls were fickle but this was bringing it to new heights suffice it to say that this morning as I'm leaving to come in and take her to see the fish she says you gotta come with me gotTa come and see my fish she runs over to see the fish I hear my aunt who's ninety one years old hey that looks just like Nemo School with his Sarah I WanNa name the Fish Sarah this point I'm a little bit out of my mind I'm confused I don't know which way is up unless someone will not bite him back and here is my solution to you number one I would put a really are you telling someone that wasn't really a Goldfish and I said well daddy's learning as goes same as you I think it's called a Beta fish or a Betta fish and Stella says Magnolia who would become Dan Align had now become nemo so I have to sit down and say look we he's like Libya Syria and you know why because they can and nothing can happen in the return the same thing to your dog he will continue to act this way on watching Hal over there with this kitty okay well thank God he's calling the cat I thought he was trying to get me to we have a call for scream and snap the rope which will create bike around the neck like a dog take it from the Doggie Mama Look you should never listened that place you should never pull you should snap like a snitch AH dodger moving its hands or you moving it hands or whatever the situation could be someone detaching his hair go for it and have attitude the Giddy Giddy it's animal radio one eight six six four five eight four zero five how Labor's with you Judy Francis is screening your calls is not an aggressive biding its plan but machine as life just fierce with by and the question is why in what you can do were you the boss and you're follower that will be number one I would do number two when you've done it and you'll poppies continue acting even think to churn eats head toward you your or somebody's hand you suddenly make my day make sure aerobic needs to be slack as setting the issue up and when he madge just listen solution number one I will go to your local hardware store don't worry I'm not asking about this way you can directly address this problem how I gotta give you three or four solutions right now at least next if that's you have a problem or it doesn't work for you you can use compressed air devised by name that convene Sir if he touched inappropriately anyone you push the trigger air comes up it's twenty five or thirty five bucks ah up your point Bob I got your point listen bliss you're the bites because you gotta put Pinch Collar and your dog and teach him work properly all obedience commands I because that will sit up the tone of your relationship pretty close yeah yeah yeah that's what I came in English bulldog that big babies okay so any I don't care what that situation could be Alma growls she says one time after she snaps and after she licks and no one goes to the jail that's it because they're its own I would attach that piece of the rope to your dog speech Keller and let the dog run around was this stuff and after that like a magic and that's going to start him but again correct redirect them praise say good boy after that as nothing happened remember dogged just say good give him cheese or traits and after you've your hands again wave your hand set this issue up again at least three and I would exculpate if something doesn't work I I we're going to the next one so grabbed a pencil and pan or pan and if you can if you can sign up for today and get a five hundred dollar bonus offer while supplies last plus lock in your price for two years guaranteed call all American dish up date I'm Stacey Cohan for animal radio there's a new study that supports the stress reducing benefits of bringing your dog to work and to play with to look at and put anyone in the hospital or any you know bad harm you probably talking biologists puppy nipping little bit mouth thing like this am I right your dish authorized retailer now eight hundred five seven Oh six six three Oh eight hundred five seven Oh six six three Oh that's eight hundred pet while you're working. According to Virginia Commonwealth University steady having a dog work not only reduces the owner stress level but also increase the level of job richer randolph t barker the differences in perceived stress between days the dog was present and absent were pretty significant the employees as a whole had hired job center the Times to win and do it every day like you don't need your snap him if he doesn't do anything but every day I would ask him oh you WanNa do it to me again go ahead make my day he does by an unnamed woman recently returned from a shopping trip at the mall discover that her car had been hit by a car that was apparently driven by three dogs she later learned that the how many times I will receive now a male with this oh you can do this oh you can under- you can thank you so much for calling cost seems like you're yelling today China parking lot fender benders might not be that uncommon but parking lot fender benders caused by a trio of dogs that's a different matter according to insurance reports a group of if aggression would be toward in our dog's not for the people if it weren't number dogs that's the problem you have works I would put `electronic color and your dog and I will do the same thing you try to Mav someone else I just pushed the button just seven hundred sixty six thirty offers required vacation twenty four month early termination fee Eddie auto-pay frictions apply call for details this is an animal radio news animal radio dot com this has been an animal radio news update get more at animal radio dot com the car had left it running with animals inside they somehow manage to put it in gear the woman took pictures of the accident explaining never thought anybody would believe the story if there wasn't some evidence the insurance company however says the incidents been recognized as legitimate and they're gonNA be able to collect on that insurance I'm Stacey Cohan get more animal breaking news thank you bye-bye four but I will ask you to buy clothes line like rope very thin like a shoelace to give you a feeling of being itself I would get some trainer I will check internationalization of Canine professional because this one that it'll be tricky but if nothing his energy's high thrown long are you tired of high cable TV rates the show thanks for having me on how many animals do you have right now we have one wonderful dog that's rescue Bernie that we got for barking bitches unfair this faction then industry norms according to the humane society of the US there are numerous benefits to having dogs at work including improve staff morale worker productivity and and since it is our carbon pawprints special it seems perfectly appropriate for the season of stars we continue with Ed Begley Junior ed welcome it is animal radio you lucky dog one eight six six four zero five eight four zero five to connect with our Dream Team up satisfaction for other employees as well the study was published in the International Journal of Workplace Health Management Dogs in the workplace can make a positive difference said head recess his but one time slightly and you don was less that will be very simple she was taking early for mothers probably part of the cause here eighteen years old and she finally passed away so but we got Bernie now I had a dog I'm sorry I had a cat too I got a New York City east side okay can I play the fourth all this is the full proven solutions this is the real things I cannot tell you aalto don't have poppy protection agency my friend well if you've done able to think and let me tell you the last approach but this one I would never suggest you snap and let them go if you're gonNA pull it's GonNa get worse you have to snap and let it go once you've done it churn one hundred one hundred eighty around and I put an ad on the Internet a little picture of them and what have you my wife saw this wonderful dog 'cause we had this dog molly for about fifteen years I think and she incomer artery among employees well here's some dogs at the kind of got out in a different way you know usually to let the dogs out who let him drive this through Debbie answering your medical questions Vlada in the world famous Russian dog wizard Dogfather Joy Villani animal communicator joy Turner and our horse expert Ernie Rodeina You know yeah aluminum is not good for us you know careful about cooking in aluminum to it's better to cook and stainless steel I think give him cheese or treats and if you dust snap the rope and that would have that rope on him dragging behind him for a while for the maybe one two week would I be doing straining on your dog you can do yourself you can do with a good trainer who believes in discipline not just was the bribing with the food in different ways for instance if someone Europe would be producing those vegetables like we have it here like wherever notice full of chemical right if it's ghosts worthy humans has not relation okay I got your off dangerous much all nothing is GonNa work we're lucky in L. A. we have a blue bin which is mixed waste and those cancer aluminum and so there's a coating in them but that did they don't seem to mind that they take that with the rest of aluminum but you up these or whatever you could be they will get a little bit nippy Rick Look at this at this age he's not going to bite hard and I'm sure you're not talking about Turner gives and you know when you put these chemicals on the carpet sometimes sometimes all the time the dogs and cats are rolling around on it and so they get a big dose for their body this is the cancer spreading activities where dying like flies from the cancer asking why ask this man he will tell you why it's true pudding wayside is not near Allison in our house in some cases we have all these cleaning supplies that often quite toxic so avoid that stuff is best you can there are nontoxic may be hot meal do you know what they're doing here they're putting them in the plastic container and people just take it they think it's okay people the water to heat something to have really hot food in plastic very bad I would agree with the something called BIS females. BPA's very bad stuff even letting a water bottle which I stopped using years ago those plastic water bottles I don't buy bottled water to leave that in the sun even with that amount of heat those bad chemicals escape into only if you have one or more a lot of cats or dogs without dog and cat hair the other thing the refrigerator it makes it labor all the harder if you have a bunch of leash should a change those filters for your heating and Air Unit of force their heating or air whatever kind of air conditioning system heating system you have that filter should be changed regularly have to with a small amount of water 'cause La in Phoenix and other cities water comes at a great environmental cost. I use a little bit of water and clean that can out so that doesn't have a lot of food just like tomatoes and cucumbers they would be in jail and interesting enough for me to see when I go to let's say to pick up some cough or some shelter rescue I got that wonderful cat in ninety five and had him until just about a year year and a half ago great cat but so we got Bernie the the plastic avoid that as best you can't stay away from it and you know I just I years ago converted to a metal water bottle and just fill it up I've wonderful filtered water avenue Ed Bernie is so completely delighted he says he has just one question for you and that is how did you choose him out of all of the dogs you your fridge and indeed changing the filter will make your air conditioner work much better too I understand animal communicator joy turner has been actually talking to your dog during this interview could've had how did he get to be that Lucky I'll tell you exactly what happened way to dog just before Bernie looked kind of similar kind of a bijon poodle mix very cute dog I'm following your twitter feed you're always talking about great ways to stay inviter environmentally conscious what are you doing for your animals to keep them environmentally in fact spaces find out when these dogs are on their final day at the pound and they take them of course and save them from the gallows there and they in the winter and boiling in the summer I then started dating a wonderful young lady Rachelle Carson when up to about three hundred dollars a year when that was reported then we had a baby and more laundry and other in dog and we got three feral cats on the roof that I've managed to have a hard trap all of them and get them all fixed so there won't be a population explosion three hundred dollars a year in electric bills and also those news when I was single I got down to a hundred dollars a year when I was single but I'll be quite honest that was you know freezing it's a great dog that we got from some friends that couldn't have any more in a new house or apartment they out of something so we had her she was five week outer we had our maybe thirteen years she was about eight air dust kittens all over the back of that coil around the compressor you WANNA clean that out regularly ruled out those dust kittens out and I use those that's a good start I'm always opening up those cans for the cat food and I am thinking those who can't every day three or four cans the I'm even more nuts than you do in European Union we have a much stricter legislation the regards infusing chemicals in different I'm either in my electric car I'm on public transportation L. A. on my bike or walking I'm only sixty some odd days a year in what is normal to a lot of people internal combustion car my case a Prius how do you toast your bread I can toasted just by putting it in the toaster but we demonstrated on the show I have this at home from the tap I've filtration system in the house and and so I I filled that up and take that around that last meal a whole day if I need more than one I bring wait to get a big dose of that stuff ammonia chlorinated hydrocarbons stuff that you can't pronounce some bad stuff so avoid that as best you can there are wonderful nontoxic alternatives before Bernie and the dog was one of those snippers withdraw blood not just with me a little bit with my daughter and her friend Jackson Green well one good thing we can all do like many folks I'm out there protesting when they're gonNA put a hazardous waste site and there are some friends house or my house but the worst houses ooh wow and you know we were talking last week with Doug Gray from the Marshall Tucker band he says the one thing he hates about his Persian cat is that there's so much hair that it gets caught in his electric bike if you will that is electric in reverse that is to say rather than riding around on electric battery charges the solar batteries that I have in my what that happening on your roof to well you know everybody knows that you are really environmentally conscious we're seeing you have a going green show and you're always talking for our animal more family foundation does your without dental insurance do you have a plan to care for your teeth without spending a fortune special ed was green before green was cool that was back in the seventies winner day started nineteen and so we got thirty and and Bernie is just this loving wonderful dog you see when it got close the door you open the window I heard rumors that you pay around they've the most listened to Ted show today radio get one month free eight hundred six seven two nine two zero two eight hundred six seven two nine two zero two that's eight hundred six seven two ninety two oh two the things you know the person that house was up to six hundred a year it's probably six or seven hundred now but let me and full disclosure tell you that includes it's running a house the free people and I can run a light bulb of computer a toaster without riding the bike listen we need to take a quick break I'm wondering if you could stick around you're okay with Ed Begley junior it's our going green traducing gentle plans dot com you can save ten to sixty percent off your next visit offer as little as seven dollars a month with a thirty day money back guarantee and for a limited time sized so we demonstrated a fifteen minutes of very hard writing was enough to toast toast I could also run lightbulb all day or computer all day it was a demonstration bridge Raider Fan and and it runs that same thing happens with your filters for your heating filters and your air conditioning can make them run kinda slow You Sir very modest vehicle to win very slow but I you know I want to do my part to clean up the LA small can I quickly surmised that it was much cheaper than buying gasoline to plug it in the wall rick and I bought a decade ago it's also very cheap because I'm charging it on the solar at my house and it's also you know very easy to maintain there's no running a mini TV studio bright lights with people coming filming all the time and it just charging an electric vehicle ten thousand miles a year so three hundred days a year special right here on am radio this is betty white all animal lovers love Animal Radio Please L. Everywhere you can to make life better voile change or anything like that on that as either there's a lot of controversy right now whether or not climate change is for real I would just urge people to go to the NASA House the blankets are co two. Why add to it keep it down to a minimum and the very least you're GonNa do three things that nobody I think would dispute You know that is oh definitely do right around an electric car nine thousand nine hundred seventy s slow little thing I'm be quite grand when I say a car we're talking about golf cart with a windshield wiper and horn it is doing some part of this warming that is definitely occurring everybody agrees it's occurring if it's a natural cycle why would you add to it to put more blankets on the green with a ticker like the national debt that's o'clock that's kind of you can see it going up and and all the numbers are quite there so even if there's some natural system now and forgive me for making dog racing reference we don't go to dog races but you know the reference I'm making they don't have anything at stake here so Canasta climate will tell you that. Co Two is going up temperatures going up sea levels are rising sea ice is going down and all that stuff is there and their website after his three strikes you know we had a with great pain we tried to retrain this other dog a female it didn't take and so we with as much and it was of course much cheaper to maintain there was no tuneup oil change your fan belt or radiator flusher smug checking valve job very cheap car people driving now I have a rabbit for the NIA gaylord Nelson Came up with the idea of Earth Day and my friend Dennis Hayes is one of the organizers so that I started day and was not there in the mall in Washington but website just type a NASA climate those two words go to Noah National Geographic their website these are people that really don't have a dog in the race I don't see what go with that Dan Align it is not too long afterwards one of my aunts comes over first thing Stella wants to do the following program is a repeat of an earlier broadcast he said way across the US Vanilla and did my part with L. A. Earth Day activities and what I did was I started recycling starred composting I even bought an electric car and all that stuff I quickly learned I was doing for the incapacity news we brought it back they said okay we'll we'll take the dog back and how about another dog could we saw Bernie when house this dog is you never know and uh green of the planet was also good good to that other green which is money money search all of it so I certainly stuck with did people think you were crazy doing all this stuff then if you have the cat food still in it some residue they will reject it and aluminum is not the things to itself can create a mental impair impact. Doctor you don't want to be chew and I don't know why they put the coating on the CAN I don't know about that so many people will think you're nuts but yeah and Mo Yung Begley Junior is joining us for our animal radio carbon paw print it seems as for digital in terms of of Randy Travis here and you're listening to animal radio we have dirty air in our cities let's clean it up we use way too much money on foreign oil three hundred fifty billion with a b a year let's end that and let's put money in our pockets we can we can save money by being energy efficient let's do those three things and in so doing we will help this fight against climate change when it comes to our animals and reducing the US an animal radio dot com or download the animal radio APP for iphone and Android game thanks for listening to animal radio we'll catch next week have a great week a by and don't forget to like us on facebook and pick up on some of the goodies that we have over there A. Simply by liking us at facebook dot com slash animal radio or get your tweet on our twitter account radio dot com or download the animal radio APP for iphone and Android from the Red Barn studios this animal radio featuring veterinarian Dr if you missed any part of today's show visit us at animal that is the WHO's it's not enough the white ruler Joy Villani news director Lorie Brooks and hear your host Palley rooms and Judy Francis you could make the soup with three components which is potato water I love it that's a cooking pot by the way other products like that on your pet you don't wanNA use some of these toxic things so you know there are people out there that make wonderful products for pets I have a line of nontoxic nine this one your product line can be founded big lease best dot com correct for now we've had them in a chain stores in the La area called Gilson of course animal radio we send out alerts if there's any kind of recalls whatever news you can use it's over a twitter and animal radio for the entire DRI and we'll also put your twitter address all that information you are always tweeting about all these great products that are great for the environment and we truly toxic they cleaned great if you want something that level above of Vinegar and Water and Baking Soda which I like Vlad urged people to start with that stuff you want something and now we just got an order from whole foods so being whole foods again soon but you can find you can buy them online at beg these best dot com and they're great products they're not eh that Ed Begley Junior joining us thank you so much for your time today thank you for having me on that's it for the show today if you missed any part of it you can check out the podcast at Animal Radio Dot Com Asleep simple baking soda to get those things out of the clay think when that doesn't work then I go for the Bon Ami here who's always talking about vinegar and water it's great and it was co written by our next guest she is the wife of Pete Townsend but I probably won't be mentioned that again because she is an incredible musician any products called deglise earth responsible products there are others out there you please use any them if you're on a serious budget as I was a nineteen seventy I use vinegar and water for a lot of stuff have to clean up I I still use it things you know I use baking soda to clean up instead of Cami I never use harsh stuff like comet the US with the bond so we're staying in La and a hotel and I'm sitting in his study room surrounded by his computers the animals yes I know that I know that you used to have a dog named whistle named after John Entwistle and but spent a lengthy stint as an organist in funeral home that is true where you performed eleven times a day I did I mean on a good day we would do eleven funerals above that that does a few other things get get my products very good okay we'll put a link over at the website there at animal radio dot com for those driving along right now wanna learn a little more about a Begley wants to Yorkshire terrier because he was childhood friends with John was so so he just kind of has you know some stuff that I don't want in it but to you know Bon ami is the the stuff I keep on the sink and I have for four years because I use it so rarely I suppose to be playing music for something so important sure sure you are an animal that's my favorite thing about you is you are an animal lover and gadgets and do you get inspired to go over and best with his gadgets. I'm not very good with Gotcha all the gadgets to him I'm I'm a a little bit older than I started when I was about nine but still quite young that wikipedia just it didn't have it right there but it does say there that you Own Right and a big animal lover Rachel Fuller joining us set the scene are you sitting around with a bunch of dogs on your lap and Pete's I'm I'm Pete's on tours of working at McDonald's or you know a clothing store but that's where I ended up working and it was but it felt like a service it felt like a privilege really I suppose because I was walking I had to be fairly detached from from what was going on emotionally It was a strange thing to do I think looking back I'd have been much better oh four okay we'll clinic dot dog dogs yeah we have we have an Irish Tiriac who tuppence and we have a march that we rescued it off but not translated he always have a Michigan accent because I had easily from Michigan sometimes related so people when using that might be a little bit over the top Oh my God I mean their entire life the little ones like to drink Evian from glass Oh yes eh because because what he's telling us he's acting like a typical Russian wife you know manic Kip many chemicals and she could terrible Luddite I don't even like to play an electric piano really are like a real peon I but he's very up to the mark with it will now you've been playing piano since six years old donny drink that's pretty spoiled you run your affiliated with rescuing Antiga as I remember that's right and what is because it's not a real audience that you know they're not going to be applauding you afterwards definitely not it somebody's so I found out that there was a shelter on the island in animal rescue and I thought Oh you know all go down and volunteer you know couple of days a week go for a walk and that doesn't work for me but then it'll ones I've trained from birth to sleep in so they they get when I get up so point look for the bad ingredients number one soda Moore rates sulfate avoid that one joe don't look at me like I know you that was that was eleven years ago so he's probably gone to the dog park in the Sky I imagine well this was a while ago it was actually longer than that it was Fourteen years ago it was p apart Yorkshire terrier part our rottweiler called Pudding You said that they sleep in bed so I imagine you spoil them right yeah you can come train my dog who wakes me up early in the morning what would you say that you do really is spoiling those animals those dogs I mean is there something when I was playing for the services so I watched that for about two years so I think probably I added it out once I must have played for about two two and a half thousand funerals it's a bit like well I didn't know that really small happy and like I preferred a big dope you could still get into bed and spoon but anyway I thought yeah you know I should from Antigua and then we have two little ones we have a Yorkshire terrier who pay not because I just after we lost whistle I managed for awhile and then I said to me he was he was childhood friends with John and John's mother always had Yorkshire Terriers Pete How often a style gic fondness for them and definitely feels quite spoilt to me and that started with and by the time we left us she wouldn't drink

Judy Francis Dr Debbie White Doggie spa Virginia Commonwealth Universi Red Barn Studios Paul Reiser Craig Abrahams Sarah Lorie Brooks Joy Villani sales manager Dr Debbie Vlada Sir Michelin TCI Louis nineteen year eight pounds
PPP21: Public Health Nursing and Disease Investigation with Jill Grumbine, BSN, RN

People, Process, Progress

00:00 sec | 6 months ago

PPP21: Public Health Nursing and Disease Investigation with Jill Grumbine, BSN, RN

"Everybody thank you for coming back to the People Process. Progress PODCAST. I'm your host Kevin Panel. If you haven't just before we get started with our guest. Joe Combine please subscribe rate the show and the more stars. We get the more recognizable. Be The more information we can put out there to tell people stories share prices and help us all make progress So today's episode twenty one. I am with my friend and former colleague in Public L. She is still in public health. Joe Grown Brian. Thank you so much for coming into the show. Thanks for having Me Kevin. So we worked together for the whole time. I was in the local for five years or so I would say And then went downtown and did hospital stuff. But so how? Where did you grow up? Start with let's learn about you Where did you grow up? And what led you through school or or an interest when you were younger to get into nursing and then and in particular to get into Public Health Nursing Yup sure To grow return. Virginia who native Richmond Her And I I remember thinking back When I was in sixth grade we had to write an autobiography as a school assignment. And as part of that assignment and we had to talk about what we wanted to be when we grew up and at the time I either wanted to be a nurse or a teacher So wanting to be nurses been part of WHO. I am for a really long time so since I was a young teenager And I think maybe the thing that kind of solidify that is caring for dying grandparent During my kind of middle teenage years And just seeing the great nurses who cared for her in our home Just steered me on that path And my mom also Has a background in healthcare. So kind of in the blood So that's what led me to become a nurse In terms of public health I can't say was ever a grand plan that I just knew I wanted to a public health nurse Actually started out as a hospital nurse. than a few years in hospital doing women's health women's surgery and caring for high risk. Pregnant Women But then you know as with many hospital. Nurses they long hours. The twelve hour shifts that we're turning into thirteen and fourteen hour shifts and the higher acuity of patients and the higher number of patients. just was very stressful And I decided that it was time for a change but didn't know what that change was going to be And someone who goes to my church said you know. We're always looking for good public health nurses and I thought yeah right. Whatever and a few months later she said you know we have a position open. I really think you should apply for it and I thought well what if I got to lose and it sounded kind of interesting and the schedule was definitely more appealing So I applied for the job knowing that I would probably get an interview but not really thinking it would go beyond that And ultimately they did offer me the position so I started working at a local health department And really loved it Didn't really know what I was going to be doing in public health in the beginning But quickly fell into a role where I was coordinating the refugee health program As my primary duties but also My other major duties were in the Communicable Disease Program for Doing Communicable Disease Follow up For various communicable diseases and also doing to particular case management for patients who had active to break yellow system. So so you what school. You got your bachelor's in nursing how much public health was covered at one Where did you go to school at Nursing School Virginia Commonwealth University go rams right on and how much public health nursing public information? Is there in a typical or your. I guess a Bachelor's of nursing curriculum so we had a whole semester of community nursing and for every clinical base nursing class. You have a clinical But my clinical for My community nursing class with parish nursing so I was paired with A nurse who was doing parish nursing at her church and we really were looking at kind of doing a health assessment for just that one. Little Church I know that I had colleagues who spent or classmates rather who spent time at the health department but I didn't have that exposure and so I really did not have a whole lot of exposure to public health prior to actually starting to work for the health department. I remember One of the As a during which was really when I first started you already Bed there during h one n one. So I started in January twenty ten when I was in full swing and one of the areas that we Took nations to was a really big church in eastern part of the county and they had like a whole kind of nursing really office. Station Clinic. Kind of thing set up there. Is that similar to kind of the experience that you had. So it's you provide screenings You know for the parishioners so I think Parish nursing definitely evolved now My clinical experience would have been a number of years before and that h one in one experience perish nursing was I would say from my Remembrance was relatively new at the time and but yes doing health screenings and and like I know our. We have a parish nurse who coordinates Health screenings and flu shot clinics Coordinates doing a CPR class once a year or so to things like that so they do exist and I think it just depends on the size of the parish our the Church of how much involvement there is and how much they do and is that usually there fulltime focus like the fulltime perished nurse. Were they yeah? I think it depends again on the church so in my church is completely volunteer. nurse Who is in charge of that? Has Another time job So does the parish nursing gig just on the side Gotcha And you also mentioned and when it your take too so you were working in the hospital you know they're chefs are you know can be brutal between the physical and emotional toll you know of of just being in that environment. Do you find that a lot of public health. Nurses had a similar experience where they did clinical time. Either inpatient or outpatient and then transitioned to public health. Or what do you think? Kind of the percentage of the of the Public Health Nurses folks that did I guess kind of more traditional inpatient or outpatient clinical nursing than those that started purely in public health nursing. That's a really interesting question so I do think that most of my colleagues started in the hospital In some way shape or form Before transitioning to public health I think many of them probably did it when they started families. because again the schedule is better And thinking back to the nurses I know like one will actually several worked in the newborn nursery Some might have started in doctor's offices and then transition to public health. I do think that having Some hostile experience is definitely valuable because it really helps you build those critical thinking skills To prepare you for working in public health which in my experience is a lot more autonomous than working in a hospital and I recently had the privilege. Gosh it's probably been a year ago now of I so wants to semester. I go and guest lecture at Vcu School of Nursing for community health class and one of yeah. It's really cool. It's probably my favorite thing to do. and one of the students approached me afterward and she said can. I talk to you and of course she said I really really really want to work in public health. And I think that's great. Go work in the hospital. Let me know you know when you get a couple of years under your belt and I'll help you navigate the application and she said yeah. I'm just really don't want to work in the hospital I really WANNA work in public health. I love it. She had done a clinical with a local health department. And she said that's just what I know that the what I WANNA do and I said okay I tell you what. Let's set up a time. I will help you. You know with your resume will help you do the application because the state application You just have to know to find the right words and build the right words in you know. Look for the key words. They're looking for and make sure you mentioned those in your application. Make sure you mentioned that relevant experience and so I helped her and she went on interview and didn't get the job But then went on another interview and she's working in public health now and so. I think you can definitely make a career in public health without having hostile experience But for me I think it provided a great foundation For helping me become the public health nurse that I am your only make sense. I mean to your point if you've worked code or crashing patient or even done sterile technique or even something non emergent and then you're working the clinic or then you're working you know. It's a bit of a slower pace. Think accurate right then it it. Scales it to your point. It's like Oh okay. This isn't you know. No one's crashing here and there were still trained to deal with that and all those kind of things which is pretty awesome it and another thing good processing good good way. People can make progress when they're applying for one nursing but I think any jobs is made a great point of when you're applying for a job I think of all your experience whether it's volunteer or paid and pull out the words that you used and match them to the application you know truthfully obviously but but you can cross map tons of experience. And I've seen a lot so read. It has been a great. I never really got into it. Which is funny and forty-six and now using read it more often For the show. And just you know. There's a lot of good groups in there So fond of Ice Calvin and there's a lot of folks either new emergency managers looking for experience or similarly public health Maybe nurses or just folks that want to get into it And like we've talked about as far as opportunities. I've said you know you should apply wherever you are to to do contact tracing or do investigation get involved in the air because you'll get that kind of boots on the ground experience than if you are whether you're general emergency manager or you do get a public health you'll have the sense of what it's like when you're making decisions in an office or the operation center that affect those people that are out doing the the shoe leather epidemiology To make a make a big difference. So that's awesome. That were it would help her get a job in public health and you mentioned when you started so what what is what is life like for Someone that transitions from hospital base nursing to public health nursing you mentioned you started and then transition to Communicable Diseases and working with refugees and things like that. So what was it? What's it I like the transition. What are some of the first things that you do when you get into into public health nursing so there's a lot of orientation And I think having a really good reputation is so important There's so many different programs so you know in the hospital where I was focused on women. You know who are post surgical or maybe postpartum are caring for high-risk any part on women But I had kind of dot. I don't WanNa say narrow focus but was just women In order to specific diagnosis codes and You know things like that to transitioning to public health. There's just a lot more breadth and so you know you learn the basics of communicable disease process and following up on things But then you also have to learn and things like we did maternity care so pregnant women who were on are underinsured. And what does that clinic? Slow look like Family Planning Clinic where you need to know about. The different methods of birth control be able to provide education to women on their method of birth control Immunizations a he is a huge part of what we knew in public health. So just learning the immunization schedule for infants toddlers whomever And comparing what Their immunization schedule looks like now as to compared to what it really should be and being able to calculate doses of immunizations and what they need in order to catch up to make them up to date on their vaccine schedule To to Berkeley Case Management which is a specialty in and of itself to caring for who come with a very diverse set of needs very diverse backgrounds and being able to provide culturally relevant. Care to them So just a lot more breath but also Not always having a in order to do everything that you do for a patient so in the House. Bill everything that. I did for a patient required of positions order right road well in public health. You do have a lot more autonomy because you have a patient in front of you. That need to know like I said about how to use their birth control or how to take their tuberculosis medicine or trouble shooting reactions. That they might be having to the medicines in knowing you know when to refer them to emergent care the emergency room Or when you know. Let's just try holding the medicine for a day and see how you do or lips. Try taking the medic medication at a different time or with food or without just navigating all those different things Is that is that The difference between being under like a health director or clinical director medical director kind of in public health as opposed to the different physician teams. You know that would manage each patient than hand off. So you're always in public health operating under the umbrella of the health director. Were there designate. You if you have like an additional md there yeah and we have a lot of standing orders and in public health. And we're in the at least when I worked in the hospital. It was individual. You know patient orders for the medication. Iv fluid you know everything Where in public health again? There's a lot more standing orders for again like I said as a public health nurse assessing what someone's immunization schedule looks like and determining what additional vaccines that child needs in order to get them up to date got to and when you when you which is not to go down the vaccine debate road but that's another thing too right. Is You see folks that come in that are all in Do you see folks that come in that question? A lot worth. They've come to public health department. They're pretty much no like. Hey we need to do this. And then kind of follow those schedules. Yeah my experience in public health with. Yes that if they were coming to the health department they were coming for a reason and knew that they needed to be there And we're coming to get the vaccines that they need. You know that they needed and and some patients. It's kind of funny If you told them they didn't need any vaccines that they were good. Some of them you know depending on cultural background Might have been disappointed because you know. They thought they were coming to the clinic because they needed something. And you tell them. Everything is fine And they leave a little disappointed because they thought they needed something well. They're already where the needed to be with their vaccines and everything. Yes interesting. I mean that's and obviously from a practical standpoint keeping up with that even being from here being in public health like with your kids vaccine schedules. And that was a great service and a service that I would venture to say many if not all the public health departments. Many of them in the country let alone in Virginia provide is annual school vaccination. So if if you haven't gone to your primary care physician or cvs or anywhere else you can go to the health department that typically hold those every year yes. I think it varies. Sometimes you need an appointment. Sometimes you don't but yeah definitely that's a fundamental cask health department is to provide childhood vaccines. And so you mentioned too loose which you definitely know a lot about so with that as far as vaccines. There's a difference in what we do here. Largely right in international whereas internationally a lot of folks are vaccinated because it's more prevalent whereas we're not or what's the difference there because that seems to be a a big thing certainly as far as screening and just problems of that of the? Us or not or is that. Is that a picture of the state of the. Us public health compared to maybe other areas. Yeah so definitely are. Incidents of TV in the United States is much much much much lower than it is in most parts of the world and there is a vaccine called V. CG and that is given in many parts of the world And it's really to help Prevent the more serious forms of tuberculosis alike disseminated to or TV meningitis But because our incident rates are pretty low here in the. Us WE DO NOT GIVE BBC. Gee I'm routinely in fact very hard to come by An interesting that you ask because Occasionally we'll get a request. In fact I just last week someone called me to say I'm going back to I forget which country Soon and I have a baby and I want to get them be because we give that in my country but I want to get it here in the US. Before we go back to our country. And I had to say I'm really sorry but we just we don't have it. It's not a vaccine that we routinely give and the US So I didn't have a way to provide or offer that vaccine to that person and had to just say I really recommend that when you get back to your country that you go to a clinic there and get it there which which is good for the state of the US. I guess right in our public health But but interesting contrast to of a many other places in the world. That aren't as fortunate even now when you know when this comes out with Kobe. Nineteen and everything but all the other stuff that still happening you know the other diseases that are still here the other levels of public health and I wonder if we could use because you and I worked a collision investigation a pretty big one but maybe as an example to and it was Someone that was active right at acted infectious to regular and around a lot of other folks close bases breathing say mayor so a lot to me a lot of similarities of what happens now if I happen to have covered near a lot of other people share like very similar right and so I wonder if we could. And we'd tested a few hundred. Maybe in the back of a big box store right which again a plug for the incident command system. We use the incident commander to I'll job and but I wonder if we could use that as an example to give folks in a d of what happens when someone has in this case to Berkeley Laos's but you know something which I think there's a lot of parallels certainly correctly wrong to a covert positive person but what happens when we find out. This person has something that's really infectious but US you know. Tv maybe that case obviously not details etcetera but what happens when someone says. Hey we think are we know. This person has regulars one. How do we find that House the Health Department and then? Can you walk us through the steps of what we do from there? Yeah sure So tuberculosis is reportable disease in Virginia. So if a physician or a laboratory discovers that someone has to Berkeley Closys or even suspects and that would be a physician to specs that a person has to Berkeley's this report that to the Health Department And when we have cases of confirmed to losses and it would be laboratory confirmation of a culture of some sort frequently. It's a pulmonary specimen so the specimen that tests culture positive for tuberculosis. We look at the people who've had the most contact with that person Which usually is household contact and we look at those people and determine and test them to see if they have been exposed to closest. And if that rate of positivity exceeds what we would expect to be quote normal then we look to kind of the next group of people And it really depends on the individual what that next group is so it might be workplace context or if someone is very active at Church We would want to look at the context that their closest to church And we look at those people and we also test them for exposure. We go through a questionnaire screening for symptoms of active tuberculosis. And then we would offer too closest test either a TB skin test or we now have blood tests to test for exposure to tuberculosis. And we work our way kind of out from that source case from that original case Until we get to a background level of positivity but is normal. What does that so positively? Meaning the someone has anybody's but they didn't have it. What does that mean? Kind of a normal positively yeah so for tuberculosis A normal test would be a negative TV tests so either negative TB skin test or a negative blood test Those are Interferon Gamma Release Assay tests. I gross And so we would expect it to be negative if it is positive then that indicates that you have been exposed or close to someone with tuberculosis and then we would at those individuals who test positive we want. I rule out that those people haven't developed active in fact. Just this and we do that by providing an X ray. The X xrays normal and the person is dramatic than we would recommend treating them for latent. Tb infection And those treatment times vary But treating them helps reduce their risk of developing active tuberculosis in the future. And then so after. That would a then be a candidate for the that vaccine that we talked about earlier or no. No that's actually really is only Usually only used in childhood usually given to invent Overseas sometimes multiple times Ti normally only childhood to reuse. That AXIOM GOTCHA. And so that's a similar process to coded or influenza. H One that you would do if you know. I was sick. Now we're GONNA talk to my family. Who were they around? Who were they around and kind of keep going out from the center kind of patient zero if he will. Yeah and YEA. And depending on the disease Might determine how widely we cast that net so or something like tuberculosis which takes Prolonged contact with someone before really. We wouldn't consider it being an exposure when you compare that to something like measles which is highly infectious. We would cast a broader net with measles. And you know initially because it's level of infectiousness as much higher than not of tuberculosis. Gotcha so hence per se. If there were measles outbreaks in college campuses folks are close together. They spread out Other and just another example of you know incidents that public health works of these are the now are those because there's another term That that I've heard for sure I think it's been in the news but cluster so if you have one spot like one place to Berkeley. She was in the store. Were say in. The dorms on campus is that considered a cluster. Or you do you use that term when there's more than one place of of an outbreak or something like that That's a good question can we? And and the TB realm. We tend to use outbreaks of tuberculosis more than clusters and to be considered an outbreak. I'd have to look at the official rule to considered an outbreak. But I think it's either to two or three Cases that are epidemiologically linked within a certain timeframe In one area in order to be considered an outbreak. So we don't usually think cluster Berkeley and it takes usually a longer time to identify what we would call a TV outbreak in an outbreak. I mean so. An outbreak really isn't like hundreds of people. It's a pretty small number of people. Yeah Burkey Lewis. It is small and but you know when you think about other communicable diseases like I said measles or hepatitis A. Things like that. We do see outbreaks influenza. We see outbreaks every year So yeah we see more of that in those types of diseases than we do with trivialises so with Kind of talking about how we worked together everybody else again. Because it's all the partnerships or relationships to find. The person helped them test everybody else for that big case in particular and given obviously the kind of incident management project management skew on the show to be those small things. And I've said this probably I don't how many times on this and the previous podcast but the little things in this you know. Even a few hundred is is not enormous like it is now but the smaller but the more frequent outbreaks. Or if you can practice getting your folks together and and using these systems like the incident command system You know I I think there's so much benefit that maybe not in scale like we see now but in muscle memory and coordination that there's huge benefit to How do you as a public health nurse and someone that was leading that? How did you find the process of using the incident command center Incident Command System to Manage and and you know support. Operationally are run operationally. An investigation took great question It was really imperative. I remember Early on when we were first talking about that case and the potential need that. Maybe we're going to need to expand his contact investigation Baha beyond the household and I remember our health director. The time saying you know. Just let me know if we need to scale this up. We need to go into incident command and I thought I can handle it and then it very quickly became apparent that no. I needed help so I think just Having those resources and knowing who was going to handle each task and knowing for example that I didn't have to worry about getting the pipe in Drape partitioned I. I didn't have to deal with that. I could just say this is what we need. You take care of it Was I think fundamental to the success of that Operation And I look back on that Investigation as one of the absolute highlights of my public health career Because everyone came together you know to work toward a common goal and the partnerships that we established and the things that I learned Were just amazing And just gave me exposure that. I didn't think I would have at the time and has really provided a great foundation for my continued growth in public health nicely. I I agree as far as you know. One of those that was on the trophy shelf of things that you're always proud of in to your point of you didn't have to worry about the pipe and drape and and not what you would think but our environmental health. People became the experts for us in logistics. In all forms you know vaccine coolers and freezers. We'll get pipe and drake. We'll do it no one. It was the people right. It was they they had. They had great initiative. They were really hard workers. And there's plenty of other folks like that around the country but I really think we had and Joe but like a Dream Team of people and to your point that is that's one thing that many folks and I kind of laughed when you said I thought I could handle it but not really because I think initially for public health in in other incidents or even big events you you probably could have and then you have to get to the point which is really credit to you to go. Oh wait a minute. I cannot do this on my own. But a lot of people pushed through and try and do it on their own for too long. And then you're behind the curve and you run into about kind of the time wedge right where. Your Time's running out and so your options in particular public health and again you know I got way into incident management to to appoint actually got a little grief about it for not doing the checklist stuff and they still did them. But I'll just I'll just stop there with my complaints. But I'll I'll but I'll say this but but I do not regret it for one second because of the work that I know that we all did and and the abilities that gave me another folks but when I was initially going through the training and even so much through the years but I was like the Public Health Guy. Right and so folks don't think about it as much but public health if you had a window into what it actually is like the stuff we're talking about to me is way more overwhelming than going to ems. Call on the street. Because it's like everything you know. Diesel Vaccine Sanitation while. What like. It's it's the whole game at all the like none of these restaurants would be opened without it and the inspections and just just tons of stuff and the relationships you mentioned. We were huge players. And we were had local partners fortunate enough in and to realize. Hey this is. Let's let the experts handle this. What can we do to help so long? It was like. Hey y'all share for provide security therefore you know problem fired on standby all our partners there and US working together with them coordinating lunches and I agree I'm probably a little biased. But it was a great example of. Hey we hear some rumblings our leader right. Who's awesome Saying you know what I'm GonNa let you handle it but let me know right instead of jumping on it and saying that. I'M GONNA take this from you. Which happens and then also when we did scale up to step up and say okay let me get in a position to kind of lead this and then go you know what. I don't need to lead this. You'd lead this right in handed off 'cause that was our health director and you were a public health. Nurse Rachel she could have said no. I got it right. Yeah she could have in. Yeah I really admire that. Because you're absolutely right have usually said no. I'm going to be the incident commander. But she really encouraged me and to Joe. You can do this and now you can do this. I'm right there with you and I had your support to Kevin So right we had the Dream Team we can. I relied you on that planning Which was just kee But then I just Kinda do lead the show but I had so many people helping And it was just amazing and I just I think really good leaders recognized when other people can take that on and encourage them And I for one really appreciate that. That's a that's a great statement. So how how you think. That's interesting too to confirm my standpoint when you when that started like you're already a leader leading program rate leading folks through you know all the different things you've done in public health particularly leading that program and getting to the point. How was your transition from mentally? And then actually going. Oh no no. I can do that instead of going. Oh can't you do this? You actually giving direction to other people to do tasks that may be in a smaller instance or you would have done yourself how did you. How was it handling transitioning going from them? It hired and the heads I under normal circumstances. I have a very hard time asking for help. I'm pretty independent But when you're testing hundreds of people obviously it takes more than just me I think having fewer people not I don't WanNa say to talk to but You know as incident commander knowing So and so's going to handle operations and so and so is going to handle logistics and Kevin you're gonNA handle planning Having that core team of people really. That was the team that I dealt with So then they could ask other people to do stuff I think we definitely helped me And I remember. I don't know why still remember this but I remember During one of the events that we were onsite somebody coming up to me and asking me a question and I wanted to answer that question so badly that I said you need to go through your chain of command. We need to go back to your section leader and ask them because what. I didn't want to happen. Everybody coming to me because everybody knew me as a subject matter expert and coming to me but I knew I couldn't get overwhelmed with getting into the weeds because there might be something that I really needed to address. And that's a that's outstanding growth. Progress thing is getting to the point where you're leader and you're not shutting people off you know really but you are directing them to the right system. Not just to go. Well there's a process but truly it actually helped so that now it takes less time. They don't get up and leave their station or leave the area. They're just right there with their leaders and and it makes them jealous team and we saw that. I think probably doing trainings before these kind of things and then for sure when I would teach incident management. Same thing right From what would sit there. And keeping the go-to person partly 'cause public health and public safety and like Helpers Right Folks WanNa to give answers. They want help. They want to do it. But that such a growth area in being able to redirect someone To have them you know. Use that chain of command. And and so you mention you know like the operation section so largely for investigations and outbreaks. They're also Public Health. Nurses Right Yeah. I think in my experience they do tend to be public. Health Nurses Sometimes at the supervisory level or the manager level And I suppose it could be. Somebody could be not a public health nurse but definitely needs to be someone when we're talking about communicable disease who understands The fundamental aspects of Communicable Disease Communicable Disease Investigation. Because it just helps to make for a successful in that like an epidemiologist. Yeah and I think I think we mix to between having largely nurses be public health. Nurses were nursing assistants or LPN's be the operations right doing the game shots drawing the blood giving the PB those kind of things but then also like for safety because at bizarre disease experts like that's her whole thing and then working closer with you. Also you know between an advisory in an operational position but to your point someone in for public health but also in general Camille like someone that knows needs to be like leading operations. That's the go-to at least that the different levels. I've said before someone can kind of coordinate people and do operations. They could kind of do it but when you get into diseases in in a certain area just just seems to make sense that way. Yeah and I think it depends on what you're doing you know when when we were doing the TV contact investigation we were administering TB skin tests for tasks to be done by nurse. So you have to or licensed person so you can't in you really need nurses overseeing nurses Because it's just critical to have that knowledge if we're talking about another type of investigation where maybe you're not doing. Invasive procedures definitely might lend itself more to an EPI being in charge a map particular operation so I think it is somewhat dependent on you know the disease and what exactly you're doing but definitely you need that background knowledge and So how important because another thing that like an a you do. Another nurses in Eddie's do is like the data management of so we've tested this many. You know the the looking at how many results we've gotten because you have to track the CDs and then follow up on them is right. So then you've got kind of a timer going on okay. When is someone do back to us and and then schedule all that out? Yeah you really do have to have good data management to track okay. Did I test everybody that I needed to test okay if I did test them? Do I have the results of that test? And if I don't where are they? How can I get them And if I never got them maybe I need to look at re-testing that person Or if that person wasn't there on the day of the testing event that we need to figure out how to get them in and then you're right Fritz burkey loses. We do Look at re-testing Eight to ten weeks after exposure is broken so where we might have done an initial test and only four weeks had passed. Maybe we do need to then schedule. Another set testing set out again for eight to ten weeks after contact with broken so making sure okay. Who tested positive. The first time we don't need to test them again but we need to make sure that we get everybody else and then following up on all of that information Again that second time around is key because without all the information we wouldn't necessarily consider an investigation completely closed until we had made every attempt possible To get information on all of the patients contact. Gotcha well yes. A lot of contact data arrangements. Lotta things that going back to our beginning conversation there's still a lot of data management vital signs beds things like that for kind of hospital based but thinking about again the breadth like you mentioned of public health and looking at two three hundred people. You're tracking you know. It's pretty huge in keeping up with that and that again is a one that the. Good Public Alvin. Good folks like you and the other nurses and then a good system a good process of working together. Help sure all that up because it it helps you communicate so if you've stood up you have an instant commander Safety Planning Operations Logistics. Like if you're planning well the communication In your conscious of the communication flow the data management becomes an operational thing. You know it's not kind of just a fall by the wayside but it's a critical component of of doing that. Yeah Yeah and and data management and Documentation is so D- I know you know people who I could follow behind them in. You know they were out for a day or whatever they were sick or whatever and I could look at their chart and know exactly what I needed to do for that patient on that day And I've had the opposite where things were very destroyed and I didn't know where anything was In in so I think it's so important For any kind of nursing but in particular for public health for good documentation good data management And when you talked about you know following up on two hundred patients or whatever it was that was only for that one. Tb patient you might have another TV patient completely not even related to to this one and you're also following up on that patient and their contacts you know and then if you get someone who ends up Being identified as having active infectious tuberculosis. Who's part of this this case investigation that you're doing then that spins off? Its own contact investigation. Wow so it's like it's just this huge picture kind of You know the the image of a molecule with the first patient and all these different lines and circles and and going out there where it just so connected which which can be overwhelming. It seems right just thinking of you know how to do that in the manpower to do it and how how does a TV program do that? Really keep up with that and because there's also some especially now but but even during normal times I guess if you will When folks are being treated and there's also a matter of helping make sure that they're taking their meds right that they're that they're doing that. So do you still kind of try and coordinate operations with the folks that you do have and then what is the follow up like for somebody that has to regular services as far as the treatment. Long Treatment Go. It really is very dependent on the person The minimum timeframe of being treated for tuberculosis is six months But when we talk about drug resistant to it could be up to two years Or more so we follow depending again depending on the patient for a long time holy smokes so in your time. It sounds like You Know Process for folks for you know connecting that the documentation just in general if you're GonNa you know as a standard is just a good colleague co workers to leave if it didn't document if it's not documented it didn't happen kind of gaps in information The process of bringing folks together when recognizing hey can handle it. Let's get some help and then having good leadership and so if you're a leader out there listening you know I I would suggest you know kind of do what our leader day than. Look at the situation. Let Your folks You know Kinda decide to the point where you know if it gets to the point where they can't then kind of jump in but if not you know let them keep role and And then support them once. They've they've stood that up. How have you seen you know with? We've talked about from when you started public health to now kind of the process of public health nursing itself change meaning You know we mentioned the difference in what was happening by the time I got in a public health in two thousand ten from when you started and then to now in twenty twenty water some some kind of big process changes that you've seen happen that are based on whatever it is. You know what what's come up what diseases come up or improve. Processes are order kind of some big process improvements that you've seen in public health nursing overall since you've been in a lot it's maybe a big broad question yeah it And some of it might be a little difficult for me to answer. Because I've been away from frontline frontline public health nursing For little over seven years now and say left the local level where I was you know based in clinics and actually doing patient care to now a more administrative role at the state level or how about four for Program Management for. Maybe managing A TV program or something like that either. What you've seen or what you would suggest to keep folks making progress and I think just continually looking at things And and sometimes Changes forced process changes forced on us So thinking in terms of My program our federal reporting requirements changed so the database that we were using the data that we work collecting is not the data that the feds want anymore so that required looking at our current data system realizing really was not We weren't gonNA change it. We weren't going to be able to update it to what we needed so then looking to and it was an access based system so we could only access it you know from the central office we had to do all of that data entry centrally to now we're in a system that is web based So that eventually we can push that data entry out to the local level instead of doing one hundred percent of the data entry centrally and so reduces our central. You know Central Office need to do all of that data entry In perhaps frees up some staff time to be able to do other things and I've seen a lot of process changes In recent months where you know. One hundred percent of The staff that I work with on a daily I actually think all of us now are working from home so what it takes to do that. Well it takes making sure that we have encrypted e mail so if we need to Sends the patients sensitive information that we have a secure way to do it looking at We do a lot of faxing looking at trying to get that fax to email capability Instead of having face to face meetings were now having virtual meetings So lots of processes have changed some of them really recently. Ram and definitely unexpectedly But I do think it's important to look at things and that old adage of if it if it ain't broke don't fix it has some validity but I also think if their opportunities to change things and improve processes to make things more efficient I think that's much better for data and using more technology. Are you seeing many folks with nursing informatics degrees get into public health in recent years I have not seen that But it would not surprise me If we do start seeing an increase in right at super speed on the street or when I was there in Blacksburg now not in that area but certainly nursing Madison's or clinical informatics this if they're not nurses Big Healthcare and that ability to look date use technology. More into your point. You know so as we're using more systems but still had that clinical span has been really invaluable for for the IT folks for the health folks for the patients you know. So it's a great mix imagine similar for you know. Tv Program Public Health Nursing. And then the folks that you're treating and another big area similarly that we've talked about our touch on earlier. Was You know? Telemedicine telehealth virtual visits or virtual care whether it's inpatient outpatient but I could see or that it would make sense doing that via zoom or facetime particularly for like the TV followups in home. You know in so there with the contact lists and then Having a look that way so and from there you could do that really from anywhere I guess. Yeah not is actually one of the things We have been over the last. I would say three to five years Have been looking at improving our telemedicine capability and it's become Really important in our more rural parts of the state where it might take an hour and a half to two hours to get from the local health department to a patient who needs their TV medicine where we can use a telemedicine APP To Watch you know as long as the patient has the ability to do that Where we can watch that patient? Take their medicine. You know while the public health nurse stays at the health department and the patients at home. And that's definitely In recent months The use of telemedicine and public health has increased a lot We've encouraged To the greatest extent. Possible that any TV related visit. That needs to be done that they'd be done using telemedicine in it is that you mentioned watching people. Take the medicine is that because it's a reportable disease and obviously not exposures pre-battle battle though. Fortunately I guess you have to have kind of a longer exposure but do you have to see them. Take it so you can validate that. They've taken it and as they get better that they're not a public health threat as it is at kind of why you have to watch them or yeah. It's a couple of reasons one on this medicine. It's not just one pill It's four different medications usually sometimes more and multiple pills and each And so before we did what we call directly observed therapy. You know what we think was happening was that patients just decided. Oh I don't feel like taking that toll today or because you don't always feel good after taking that much medicine. People just wouldn't take it at all and so what we're finding is that people weren't taking their medicine and then we thought you know that they had we not really neat because we've done directly observed therapy for as long. I've been in public health but When they and then we talked that they were done But then people developed TB again and you run the risk of if you developed TB again. Then you run. An increased risk of having a drug resistant form so An in too when you think about like I know for me if I have a sinus infection or something. I'm terrible about taking my antibiotics every single time. I'm supposed to always take the entire course but very rarely do I take them every day. The way I'm not perfect schedule. I'm not gonNA perfect schedule. So how would you expect a TB patient for six months or more to do that every day and so that part of why we do directly observed therapy while yet into think about it? Now from the practical standpoint say you're using facetime resume so you're scheduling those like every day for six months now so you haven't standing meetings constantly. Which which is. It really hypothetical like that's happening or going to happen. Is the norm right right. Yeah and I guess a good thing though is that's also an opportunity for folks to work from home because you know one thing now with tons of did surge planning right. Hospitalize folks may or may not have gone hospitals so capacity. There's actually capacity so whether it's doctors nurses depending on where they are you know or or laid off or something but as far as do you have to be a public health nurse credential to be like an observer for someone to do that or is there opportunity. They are for healthcare providers particularly nurses To help with that as it grows. I mean as the kind of Tele telehealth hearing of medication consumption grows. I would think that they would need to be some sort of formal relationship so either bought on a staff person or like I was saying as a medical reserve corps volunteer just to have that legal coverage or relationship For someone who would be helping with like a telemedicine visit or something. He would need something in place an order to make that happen. I think that's great. I'm glad you brought it up to thank the Medical Reserve Corps in particular For help legault emergency coordinators like myself regenerate folks and other duty of ours was to supervise and help maintain the Medical Reserve Corps Training Cycle Staff Directory. All that kind of stuff. But they're such a force multiplier I know we called on them many times and they're great folks. A lot of them retired nurses public health or medical or some physicians and a mix. I think that is a great resource that I hope folks are using now and and keep using keep maintaining and I know it's a federally funded program but they have made the difference from you know a a nursing home hepatitis outbreak through a few hundred now And so you know for anyone. That's listening to that. I think even to getting into you know returned before folks that want to get into public health. That's a great way. Even if you're not done with your degree that you can get into public. Health is volunteer. Because 'cause they take both medical non medical folks right. I'm glad you pointed that out. Kevin 'cause I think you hear Medical Reserve Corps and think Oh you have to be a nurse or a doctor We had pharmacists dentists But we need more than just medical help. There's a lot of administrative functions. They can help with Logistics you know I remember. We had medical reserve corps people helping pack up kits that we would take with us when we were doing h. One in one backs nations. You know we. There's a whole box of just supplies that we needed at each event So having staff are volunteers who were able to step in and do that. was really critical to the success that those missions. Ios Huge and the administrative side isn't nearly as sexy. I guess as the needle and bandage side of the house But but but one. They can't happen alone you if you don't have the coolers that didn't work if you don't have folks with the clipboards and pencils and I did a few episodes back like anatomy of appointed dispensing just going through kind of knowing and and there's been probably how many Kovic screenings and you very similar setup swabbing instead of giving a shot or something like that but All the the administrative work that goes into it. That's dumb just folks is invaluable and and I think it is a great point of you know for folks that are brand new if you're an emergency management homeland security medicine public health. Ems whatever pulsating heading down that route. Not There yet getting some boots on the ground. Experience like carrying boxes as part of a clinic or a shot or an investigation Will serve you extremely well down the road to again. Keep that perspective on what it's like on the ground when you're one day making policy decisions or your operations or your leading the project. It's invaluable that that will help you for your whole career. Yeah sometimes Kevin. It's not Necessarily the day of the event like sometimes we need help even beyond that so we talked about data earlier and sometimes there's a lot of data entry or data management that needs to be done after an event so. Yeah just because an event is quote over doesn't mean that the need for assistance is over. That's true that's true. I guess you gotTa between you know following backup. That's that's true and again it's it's one of the least exciting ways but best ways to gain experience and learning. Something in depth is by hours at a time sitting there doing what seems mundane but as is critical a critical task. But so definitely again encouraged folks. And I've found a working from the bottom up so to speak just from really hands on doing that kind of stuff to being the leader. You're much more well rounded leader and just do things you know in detail when when if someone gets stumped or something like that yeah. I think I've definitely found that my experience at the local level doing the various things that I did Have definitely helped me In my current situation and In my current job rather and with the current Kobe situation just I'm taking on different tasks and doing different things instead of my normal duties. So you're just over an hour which is amazing. We talked about like it's amazing. How fast when you just catching up with an old friend of like how much time which school and give great helpful information so we always liked to think we've given a Lotta process learn about you How for folks and we touch on some of but but how for folks that are nursing and in particular interested in public health nursing either interested in getting into it Which now seems like you know quite a time to get into it or in it now So I I guess for folks that want to get into it you know. What can they do to make progress toward getting there and then for folks that are in public health? Now what would you suggest for them to continue making progress in their careers Given that that you've already have almost a couple of decades in public health so when I think I think your suggestion of getting involved with the Mr see is a great one sometimes. That's just a good foot in the door And if not with the MRC Is there some other way that you can just volunteer at a health department whether it's filing or you mentioned back to school clinics? Is there something that you can do with that Sometimes just making your face and person known to the people there just to give you some background to just keeping your eyes open on state job postings and keeping your eyes open for public health positions I'm certainly happy to help mentor. And share my experience with people And I was really fortunate to work with many many great public health nurses who mentored me And so if I can provide that to the next generation of public health nurses then not really my duty and my pleasure So just getting involved and figuring out ways to help It's probably the best way to get your foot in the door with public health. And what would you say for folks that in public health now maybe a couple of years in For them to keep making progress in the field? Learn as much as you can Don't don't keep to narrow of a focus To learn as much as you can about your different programs Take the opportunities. I think I was one of the public health nurses who was always ready and willing to go do the quote Unquote Emergency Preparedness Events. So anytime that I could get involved with a match flu clinic or appointed Dispensing Clinic Taking those opportunities to participate in those. Because you never know who you're GonNa meet and where it could lead to a new connection and something that you might not have ever thought about. That's a good point now. You definitely at a cross section of Amine again public safety public health schools because for us I think many other places I mean. Schools are big places. They have drive throughs so often they are targeted for points to dispensing or something like that. So that's a whole nother group of folks General government and then and then again you know when you develop that trust in that confidence to do like what you did with that investigation in a big name. Big Box store. You also then get you know the relationship and respect of the your local government partners who are like Oh like. They're pretty squared away down the road. You could come in handy either way. They need help if we need help again. Something like that. That's disagree point right right. So establishing those relationships and you know maintaining those relationships knowing That not that I'm a big name dropper but when you meet a common colleague and you say Oh yeah I worked with Kevin Fennell when he was the emergency preparedness guy and a health department And it just it helps establish more of a rapport. Maybe with those new colleagues. Yeah that connection. Yup for sure. That's Awesome I. I always enjoy catching up with you. Always admired the work. You did appreciate again. The the great works that we did together on the flu clinics. Certainly the big investigation. We talked about For folks that WANNA reach out to. You is is linked in the best way to do that if they have questions about public health or just want to ask you questions about this. Yeah Lincoln. It's Great. I am on Lincoln and Kevin. I know you'll share the podcast of my information. I'll be there okay. Cool Yep there for everybody. Listen we're on all the all the platforms subscribe will push this on Lincoln? Facebook instagram ever goes Jill. Thank you so much. Stay safe out there. Thanks for all you're doing all you've done and for being such a great Mentored me in public health and friend. Yeah thank you Kevin. It's great to connect with you and really thanks for having me on your show absolutely everybody. Thanks so much for listening Out Their wash your hands and Godspeed.

Health Department tuberculosis Public Health Nurses Virginia Public Health Nursing Kevin Panel United States commander director Vcu School of Nursing People Process Nursing School Virginia Common Joe Combine Joe Grown Brian Berkeley Station Clinic Joe
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00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Remembering Toni Morrison, 'A Friend Of Our Minds'

"This message comes from on point sponsor indeed. If you're hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your short list of qualified defied candidates using an online dashboard get started at indeed dot com slash n._p._r. Podcast from n._p._r. N._p._r. w._p._r._o. Boston i'm david folkenflik and this is on point. Tony morrison looms large over any conversation about american literature of the past half-century the winner of the pulitzer prize nobel laureate champion of other african american authors convener of a decades long salon focused on writing about the american experience experience other writers hail her use of language and of metaphor to capture black life in the u._s. Says it's actually lived in fact and truth often exploring the heritage of racism mm-hmm without putting it in terms of the white perspective powerful personal poetic. Toni morrison's books became part of the american literary canon. She died this week. At the age of eighty eight this hour on point a conversation about tony morrison join us especially like to hear this hour from listeners for morrison's work group eight meaning. I'd like to invite them to call in with the sentence or brief passages from toni morrison's books that have spoken to you and to give a chance to tell us and our audience why join us of course anytime at dot org on twitter and facebook ad on point radio with us from n._p._r. Member station w. s. u. In jackson mississippi is dana williams. She's a professor of african american literature and chair of the english department at toni morrison's alma mater. That's howard university in washington d._c. <hes> professor williams is also president of the tony morrison society and has been researching morrison's careers and editor at random house. She interviewed tony morrison for that research. Several times professor dana williams welcomed on point point. Thank you for having me also with us from richmond. Virginia is tracy mcmillan cottam. She's a writer columnist and professor of sociology at virginia commonwealth university. She's she's also author of thick and other essays. It's a collection exploring the identity and experience that defines black women womanhood in america trustee mcmillan cotton welcome back to on point. Thank you david pleasure to be here and later we'll hear from the novelist and put russell banks longtime friend of tony morrison and a colleague i for for decades at princeton university professor cottam. Let's start with you know. It's a it's a moment to take stock right. It's a moment to think back into celebrate at this life and and this legacy when you think of tony morrison what she means to you as a writer and has a presence what stands out oh yes it is as a moment and i am torn between feeling grateful to have had a tony morrison for almost nine decades and a deep sadness. I can't help but think that we just weren't done with her yet. She may have been done with us. <hes> but of all moments it felt like to lose tony morrison at the precise moment when i think i think we could use the language that she gave us to describe <hes> the world that we live in. It's a sad moment as well what tony morrison meant to me <hes> as much as her work transformed my understanding of my ability to speak to <hes> the literary canon not just the literary canon though but to speak quite frankly to white people which is what we've been trained to do in my formal education and i think that i was allowed to take up space in my own voice voice in my own way as much as that matter through literature her as a as a larger presence of being a black woman creative who owned that she was great at what she she did and that there was nothing unnatural or noteworthy about her greatness and her brilliance <hes> inspired me <hes> every time i sat down to to write and was one of the reasons why i knew that writing was possible for me that there was a way to be free black woman and to write my own own intellectual history in my own voice and that i could own it as something that is not just authentic but meaningful that matters and that i could do it by speaking to entering the people that i care about the most that talking about and thinking about black people was in and of itself an intellectual project. A tony showed us how to do that and she showed us how to do it with style. I don't want to <hes> understand. Just how you know. I think you know seductive she could be. I had the opportunity to only see her live twice and how seductive she could be how funny <hes> how witty how self possessed she could be <hes> and so she wasn't it wasn't self serious. She was a serious writer but she wasn't self serious and that was very inspiring so dana williams. I want to ask you the same question in a way what you have have interviewed her a number of times and you've you've delve deep into her career as a scholar but also undoubtedly i would imagine as a reader and as someone who who's thought about her words on a personal level as well what what's stays with you about about her writing. What is carried meaning for you over the years. I think it's the language <hes> that is is just so wonderful and so beautiful. I think the point that trust he makes his one that i would echo the way that she owned her story and wrote from the position of culture <hes> without any remorse without thinking about it twice but to be clear that the implied reader the assumed reader was a reader who came out of the culture that she wrote from was was something that was not especially typical in the era where she was writing and i think about the opportunities that i had to interact with her and to think that this genius of a person is tracy was suggesting wasn't so self serious that she couldn't also be down to earth and appreciate the work that others did on her writing. I can tell you she was very often interested in seeing what the critics said about the work that she was doing so she was is generous in so many ways and really just a very pleasant pleasant <hes> gift in a wonderful contribution not only to african american letters at american letters but really to the the world in her work as an author but also her work as a teacher and especially as an editor and we'll talk a bit about more about that as as the show unfolds today we'll be hearing passages of work but also wanted to hear her voice some to here's here. She was in nineteen ninety three. That's when tony morrison won the nobel prize in literature. She began her speech table about the power of language and delivered. This often recalled insight word were is sublime. She thinks because it's generate it make meaning that secures our difference our human difference the way in which we are like no other life we die that may a b meaning of life but we do that may be the mation of our lives. Dean williams unpack that for us. What did she mean. Oh i think she was so clear about the significance of language <hes> and the way that people understand each other in the human condition becomes a little bit clearer to us because of the words that we use whether they're positive words or in the bluest eye for instance. She helps us to see how they can be damaging. Words we see those uplifting words in works like sulum ensemble solomon and of course in beloved. I think she says it very clearly to and that quote where she says she was a friend of my mind i think everyone who is thinking about tony morrison in these days <hes> with think about out her as a friend of our minds. I wanna take a call now from boston. Massachusetts <hes> also interested in paying tribute. I think to tony morrison. A chitty is on the air. Thanks for recalling in high well. Thanks for taking my call. My full name is shitty. Thebenz watch have a son <hes> and i just wanted to make a point <hes> about twenty percents relevance to not just the american audience but to the global on to the african literally renaissance that she on a number of people <hes> where spearheading i mean she adored my father. My father her there was a whole <hes> school of black uh scholars and intellectuals <hes> for whom she was upbeat and we're terribly and i just wanted to let you know how important thank you <hes> pity obviously moved by by the life and also of course the the death of tony morrison <hes> the son of <hes> chinua achebe of course famous nigerian american novelist. He wrote a book things fall apart. Let's take a moment in and i and <hes> if you don't mind tracy mcmillan cottam to acknowledge what he was talking about some ways this fostering of other african american <hes> novelists <hes> a- as an editor and later as renowned writer but also of african writers as well. How important was that in the past half century <hes> tony morrison ourselves said many times that <hes> the set of questions <hes> that drove her when she sat down to create a narrative <unk> a story were informed questions that she wouldn't necessarily embed in time you know she played a lot with linear time <hes> which a lot of scholars have rightfully critiqued as being sort of a western construct she understood time as being something far more malleable <hes> than linear time with suggests adjusts and part of her reason for that is because she understood and i think deeply appreciated and loved <hes> the narratives that have produced us that sometimes uh-huh had to exist outside of that time because of the middle passage and enslavement and the ties that had been broken in linear time between african nations and african american <hes> nation with the african american nation within the nation and instead said that those stories still existed the that time existed in the stories and the narrative ear to get inherited she talks about the oral tradition for example of <hes> african american culture always links to the narratives and the stories stories that we ahead inherited whether we always could uncover their history or not due to our ability or inability to do so because of how we came to the the american shores and so it is not surprising that that would resonate that gave that that would resonate with people living across the diaspora because i think think tony morrison spoke to the die aspic connections between black people no matter where they were living that are all traditions had kept a history of us together even when and so many forces of colonization had tried to erase and rewrite <hes> those histories so it's very moving <hes> by the way <hes> to hear that that emotion <hes> today is a motion. I think a lot of us are feeling but no it is not surprising. She called out to our connections across man-made western time all of the time and all oliver work and dina williams were just very briefly and we'll pick this right up after our brief break but remind us just a brief list of some of the writers that she helped to foster the one i mentioned right now is <hes> contemporary african literature anthology where she was able to actually edit chinois bays and to include some of his work and while they showing an <hes> in google in this anthology that she was so proud of its remarkable record indeed were discussing the legacy and influence of tony morrison. You can join our conversation sation. Which books do you celebrate. What characteristics of a writing matter to most. I'm david folkenflik in this is on point. 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We're remembering the writer tony. Morrison author of such books says the bluest eye soula song of solomon beloved jazz and god help the child. You can join our conversation. How did morrison's work affect you follow us on twitter. Find us on facebook facebook on point radio. We're talking with dana williams. She's a professor of african american literature at howard university and president of the tony morrison society where else have with us tracy mcmillan cottam a professor of sociology virginia commonwealth university. She's also the author of thick and other essays and exploration exploring the identity and experience the defines black womanhood in america in a few minutes. We'll hear from the writer russell banks as well. I wanna play a couple of clips for you. Just one is just a tribute could've been offer this week but there was actually a offered in twenty twelve from president then president barack obama when he awarded morrison the presidential medal of freedom introducing the author by citing her early days of writing <hes> when she was a single mother working for a publishing company by day and finding tined in the evenings too right with her sons as she put it pulling on her hair and tug earrings circumstances may not have been ideal but the words that came out <hes> we're magical toni morrison's pros brings us that kind of moral and emotional intensity that few writers ever attempt from song of solomon to beloved tony reaches us deeply confusing a tone that is lyrical precise distinct an inclusive. She believes that language arcs toward the place where meaning ming nightlife and the rest of us are lucky to be following along for the ride. One of the questions raised by some of her critics white and black was was the the fact that she did not populate her books with white characters. Here's a nineteen ninety. Eight interview conducted on sixty minutes by ed bradley where <hes> he asked morrison arson about that very question. There are no major wide characters in your books. No the black narrative has always been understood to be a confrontation with some white people. I'm sure there are many of them. They are not terribly interesting to me. What is interesting to me is what is going on within the community and within the community. There are no major white players once once. I thought what is life like if they weren't there. Which is the way we lived. We lived it dana williams what was the result result of that insight of that impulse on her part on her literature but aside from that wonderful irreverence i think it is what allowed her to take the particularity of the black experience and show how it is indeed universal that the human questions that we're asking about this condition are questions that aren't related specifically to race what is good what is bad and even the question of the interrogation of that question so one of the things that i think she actually learned from the african writers she edited and she read and she admired was that ah these things are far more complicated that binary relationships simply don't work which is why i think in the short story that she writes. She won't give us the race of the character and similarly she does that. In paradise the novel where we know she shoots or the the white girl has been shot. I but we don't no who's a white girl is and her commentary about that was if you're so invested in figuring it out work your way through the story and see if you can figure it out but once once you realize how little race matters ultimately in the construction of national identity then you may be able to get on with the story and that story can then be told from the perspective of black people and moving those stories to the center from what was otherwise the margins for other people but as she she indicates had always been the center for her and people in our community and that was different in some ways than if you think of invisible man you know or i guess even james baldwin that there was sort of this relationship with whites that seem to be inherent in their writings she she located herself a little differently in her writing a little differently. It seems absolutely absolutely not just her work but in the folks that she edited she was very clear that she didn't want to spend any more time dealing with the white gays or with the white character with the white implied reader but it gets really complicated and interesting and cute if you will because of course the bluest eyes like deconstruction deconstructing deconstructing the american primer with this is the house that you know the white family lives in with the picket fence and the dog and when you deconstruct that to begin to think about how that experiences the same in some ways different in other ways from the traditional white experience and you see how she's playing in with narrative and of course when she does just that with playing in the dark to tell us how what we think is one story is changed when you introduce color. Can you introduce blackness and you introduce that africanus presence tracy mcmillan cottam. You know it's interesting we just for dana. Williams mentioned the bluest eye her. I book written. I guess after she had worked on it for five years she was an editor at that point syracuse for an offshoot of <hes> of random house and they started really recognize her talent right but you think about that the bluest eye her first book nineteen seventy and our final novel. I think in two thousand fifteen god help the child or very much about race and about the the way i take it is the internalisation of white racism among african americans. There's a little girl in the bluest eye who who wants blue eyes. She's a black that girl. It's not going to happen for her. In god help the child <hes> the character bride struggles with being rejected by her lighter skinned parents due to her dark complexion so so race and racism and even <hes> the construct of the way in which whites think about blacks very much a part of what she wanted to write about yeah. I i think though to write about what is done to you and how you resisted or survive it and construct meaning and life life within it is different from centering <hes> white racism in the story <hes> what i think dana elegantly points out in one of the things things that i think so many black writers especially women writers loved about tony morrison is that she made a distinction between <hes> our project of understanding understanding the complexity of black life would of course necessarily engage with <hes> the things that have been done to us the structure that had been put in place around round our lives but that did not necessarily dictate all of the complexity of our internal lives and <hes> for example in the bluest eye <hes> yes piccola wants <hes> blue eyes but it's not blue is that she wants she wants what blue eyes would have represented right that is again tony playing with the <hes> <hes> with the metaphors and grounding them in material culture <hes> that would feel relevant to black people because she loved people and she knew what i'm going to material culture was but another perhaps <hes> <hes> another author would have centered the white girls telling of beauty for example in such a story and instead what tony gives us is a story that is not about actually talking to any actual white girl right her engagement with learning about what whiteness means is beauty construct and what kind of capital is associated with that comes through a doll for example <hes> and then is multiplied applied by the violences that are acted upon her by the people who actually look current so one of the things that you get a toni morrison novel. I think one of the hallmarks of them anyway anyway is a complex rendering of black life as dana points out. What you start to understand is that there is no by near a good and bad when you strip away the white gauge then have the time and the space to explore precisely that the nuance of what it means to internalize a a narrative of self hate could be just as much about color- ism as tony morrison also explores <hes> in her work as it is about <hes> valorising whiteness as a beauty ideal so you you can't even get to some of those complexities when you're so focused on telling a story that will center the comfort in the narrative rid of white characters and so yes she deals with racism but she deals with it in the way people experience it rather than the way people turn into an anthropology projects projects. You sorta resist <hes> that outside gays wanna take a couple calls people. <hes> readers wanted call into their perspectives as well. We have a call now from richmond virginia james. Thanks for listening and calling. Hello everybody <hes> i just wanted to. I comment on what was just said. I totally agree with with that that <hes> martian the focus on <hes> the way people experience racing how i if she really didn't hype on you know the the the classic story of black and white eagle it was done in a in a better in such a magic way. That's what my comet it was. I i got a chance to see her at <hes>. I'm i attended virginia commonwealth university and she came to v._c._u. Think about fifteen years ago. I'm not kim nothing it's two thousand and two and <hes> it was that was the most striking thing to me was just her ability to have for language magic into it and just the characters i was introduced to her. <hes> the freshman english class and <hes> the first the first book we read with song of solomon and it exchanged changed my perspective on how the black store was told because i always thought it was just a a singular thing insulin things this is what happened to black people in and aw that's all there was to but now i just thought it how she captured people in how she how she talked so heavy talking the interacted with each other with all of this other stuff going on around him that these were things that stories and messages and images and things that actually transcended great so on one hand it it was about what happened to these people every day african americans however messages which isn't such a higher level and that's what made her i think great and she's a truly an artist. It will miss and i wanna thank you for the time and also miss the focus. They say i'm apologetic. Hurt hurt <hes>. Sorry about the loss of your father. Oh that's very thoughtful. Thank you so much for acknowledging that and thank you so much for being a listener. We appreciate it now. Joining us for keene valley new york is russell russell banks. He's a novelist and poet. His works continental drift and cloud splitter were finalists for the pulitzer prize for fiction. He was also a longtime friend of tony morrison. They taught together for years at princeton university. Where banks is still a professor emeritus. Hello russell banks. Hello so tell us about your friend. Tell us what insight you have into her. <hes> as a person that may have informed to she was an author and public figure but that we may not know right <hes> well i think <hes> tony and i met <hes> around the middle eighties <hes> and then she was colleague from that point on and very quickly became a friend <hes> and i think we bonded <hes> <hes> they're <hes> initially over cigarettes and wine and laughter and politics <hes>. She used to sneak down the hall from in her classroom. <hes> to my office <hes> 'cause you couldn't smoke in the classrooms and we would sit by the window of my office and smoke cigarettes and gossip and talk politics <hes> she was <hes> she was a very funny person <hes> and loved to laugh and and i think it's probably probably not widely known she really likes the company of men and she knew we were ridiculous <hes> and and dangerous the interest in and and that we needed constant instruction and correction and thought that was worth doing <hes> for or <hes> the benefit as she saw it <hes> of our company so she was a great person <hes> to <hes> to be <hes> to be a man and to be close to <hes> <hes> i loved it very much and we remained friends <hes> long after i left princeton and and <hes> and then she retired but <hes> we still saw each other on the road and whenever possible over the years right up to <hes> just recently russell banks <hes> you alluded to her wit slide sort of transgressive spirit it sounds like <hes> in the hallways of princeton's campus dina williams also talked about her as as a as a very funny mischievous force. How did you see that play well. He she didn't tolerate fools gladly but she loves them <hes> and <hes> that that part of her a ah that was really a great humanist <hes> and and so i think the warmth of that love is what <hes> came forward <hes> <hes> often came forward and in a sly put down or <hes> a <hes> a quick but <hes> but winking correction in <hes> and and and she wasn't a joke teller but <hes> but her warmth was really came across <hes> and it came across in a humorous and uh endearing way obviously you are very prominent novelist yourself what what you note about her work that set her apart or particularly that influenced silence writers that came after she is there is no one i mean you can't overstate her importance. <hes> i like to think that <hes> there are three <hes> central images in the american narrative the making of the american immagination <hes> in literature and that that <hes> there is that white whale and then there's that kid that homeless boy on a raft going down to mississippi and then there's the slave mother who <hes> sacrifices sacrifices her child <hes> rather than center back to slavery. Those three images are central. <hes> you can't think about the american <hes> imagination you can't have an american imagination without those three images and she is equal to two twain an equal to melville in my mind. Don't that's quite a testament indeed you you mentioned <hes> the third obviously being the the plot line although not the total of the novel beloved the <hes> which is so painful but in some ways a reflection of the intense love between mother and daughter you know as evinced by her decision to kill her baby and and then then having to reckon with her daughters ghosts returning to talk to her. It's it's such a powerful and complex <hes> and i think lasting being <hes> metaphor that <hes> we'll never be the same <hes> <hes> without it as we were before. What do you think precisely that's a metaphor for. I think it's a metaphor for the cost of slavery if nothing else <hes> the price <hes> of slavery and it's paid <hes> by both both weight and blacks in america in the about minute we have left with our conversation here russell banks before we relinquish you you know let's say you're called back back in princeton. You're going to teach a seminar this fall. You're going to talk about tony morrison to a group of freshmen who have not yet been introduced to her. How do you introduce her work. What do you tell them oh. I would probably start with two novels of hers that aren't as widely discussed as the great big ones of like beloved and and song of solomon and <hes> that's one recent novel called home which is a story of a veteran from the korean war returning to the south to his home <hes> a beautiful and profound a novel and then the other one. I would like to teach and talk about with students suspiciously undergraduates. Maybe just coming to her work. Freshly is a mercy <hes> which is historical novel set in the in the late <hes> early eighteenth century and it's about the bond between the poor <hes> indentured servants and <hes> and <hes> slaves wave and it crosses racial lines <hes> to talk about class in a way that <hes> some of her work doesn't get to <hes> those two. I think would be great door openers for the rest of her work. For the the larger more formidable novel you're hearing the words of the novelist and poet russell banks longtime friend brendan colleague of tony morrison. Thanks russell for joining us today and we're going to beat continuing to talk with dana williams and tracy mcmillan cottam scholars <hes> who are helping us us to discuss an honor the late writer tony morrison. I'm david folkenflik in this is on point <music> <music>. Hey it's medina hossen host of n._p._r.'s latino u._s._a. Every week we bring you a mix of reporting diverse voices and coverage of current and emerging issues that impact our lives. Let's say is one of a kind featuring stories from the heart stories that make you think and maybe even inspire you into action. Listen and subscribe now. This is on point. I'm n._p._r. Media correspondent david folkenflik. We're celebrating the life and legacy of toni morrison who died on monday. You can join our conversation. What is twenty more since work mean to you. Follow us on twitter find us on facebook at on point radio. <hes> wanna take a couple of quick calls before we join <hes> rejoin. Our guests. Savannah is calling from new york city <hes> savannah. Thanks for listening what your thoughts on twenty morrison. I think you so much for doing the segment <hes> before. I say anything i just want to offer offer my condolences to her family and friends and the people who really knew her. You know we're feeling the loss <hes> in the next essentially almost <hes> but she was a real person and she had real friendships and family ties and i just wanna say you know offer my love and prayers to her the people in her in her life <hes> i think first of all i'm part broken. <hes> you know she is a seminal voice for me. Being a white woman i cannot and i will not deign to claim her as giving mia voice <hes> but as a writer as a as an artist as someone who strives to be the most compassionate person i can be someone who wants to be versed in culture. She changed my life. <hes> you know i i read soula and song of solomon when i was sixteen years old high school and she blew my mind she you just opened my mind in a way that <hes> as as a musician a singer her language was so musical and and n. touching and had the ability and still has the ability <hes> i just a month ago reread home and her language has this incredible ability to tie people across races across cultures and belief systems because she speaks to the real human condition the tragedies the losses the the successes the beauty of it and i just i can't i can't express my gratitude to her enough and really changed my life and yet you just have and we appreciate that contributions van. I want to take another couple of quick calls as well. <hes> <hes> gene is calling in from boston. <hes> gene your thoughts. Hi <hes> thank you for taking my call. <hes> it's hard to say much more than so. Many of your eloquent readers and listeners have <hes> russell banks is another one of the people who is in the amazing using voice in literature and i loved all he had to say about tony morrison <hes> i am a professor and i <hes> in addition to teaching in a regular other classroom setting i work with women on probation who <hes> many of whom have been in prison and <hes> i've done this for twenty seven years years at <hes> and i have always used i've used five of toni morrison's book but every single one of them has had a profound effect on my i students life and when she died and did a women out of prison and they're now doing their own lives but they were struggling deeply at times times when i had them in my classroom and the reason i used her work is she speaks so beautifully to the struggles that women have and she talked so much to the women that i taught and they wrote me i got i got emails from two different people saying as soon soon as i heard that she died i thought of you and i thought of our class and i thought how much i learned from the bluest eye which was probably the one that touched the women the most i in my class because they deeply understood the struggle number one to deal with someone who had sexually should we abuse them and thought it was love which is the thing that tony morrison does so profoundly that she does her characters without judgment different and so even charlie who is an abuser becomes someone who you can understand. It's not just the child whose abused music but it's the person who abuses that is absolutely profound and so for the women that i taught they they we asked that question in the classroom of each other. Do you think he thought it was love and even though they weren't talking about their own abused they were talking about their around abused. So that kind of affect that kind of deep understanding of one's own life is what i believe she gives to all of us to her readers and to the country so much for that gene we really appreciate that tribute and briefly won't take one more call from medford massachusetts time rachel. You're on the air uh-huh. I could easily speak to twenty more since amazing influence as a black woman i had never seen myself reflected in literature but mostly i was lucky enough to see tony in person. Just one time at sanders theatre at harvard university a couple of years ago. She did a series of lectures and totally full halt. You read from beloved. She took questions from the audience and at one point <hes> just to speak to her humor. <hes> person the balcony stood up and said tony morrison what brings things you joy and she looked up from the stage and let directly at the person who asked the question instead sex the the entire audience erupted after a beat and it was just it was so real impersonal as many spoken to blow warmth and her humor and <hes> i just i. I love that anecdote. I loved it that was kind movement that i got to show her and thank you for sharing it with us rachel sex and my writing in that order apparently so we have with us of course staying with us this entire hour been dana williams professor of african american literature and chair of the english department at howard university twenty more since alma mater as well as tracy mcmillan ellen cottam. She's a writer calmness professor of sociology at virginia commonwealth university. I do wanna play a a clip that speaks to something that people have raised aced about her. Not only is african american writer but as a woman writer in the pieces. I am a documentary <hes> twenty more than said that navigating a white male world was not threatening. It wasn't even interesting. I was more interesting than they were then. She told the story of her first publishing job. I believe it was in syracuse at l. W. the singer an offshoot of random house publishing a place whereas at many places men were paid more so i went to my boss and i didn't raise me as much as you get my colleagues and he said yes but nested here but i'm gonna tell you so. I am head of household just like you. You may think i'm colored or woman. I guess i'm the head of household just high you yes. I got three. I didn't williams you've interviewed tony more in a number of times and you've also performed a really extensive work on her career as an editor at random house as well as a writer how important important <hes> and how much of her outlook is a writer was informed by her gender hirola not only the head of household but as as a woman. I wonder if we can really answer or even ask that question some ways because i think it was just a consequence of the reality reality so she was very clear. I am a black writer. I am a black woman writer but as she indicates in that quote she thought of herself as head of household which meant she should earn as much as anyone else and she similarly thought of herself as a human who i think she would say happened to be a woman. Now we can think about the different ways that she talks about women's liberation the ways that she talked about feminism and head of relatively ambiguous relationship <hes> with them. I think when we think about her role as editor especially surely you can see some of the ways that she communicated with the team authorities or or her supervisor's or really. I would probably describe it as colleagues colleagues because it certainly is the way that she interacted with him in correspondents to be clear that she had an authority as an editor and it was not to be taken lightly. I'm i'm so she would make the case for her authors with as much enthusiasm and as much bigger as she would if she were the writer herself because these were are lesser known writers who didn't have established careers but she would go in and argue. This person deserves this advance because this book is really solid and you gave this man who who is a first time novelist a three thousand dollar advance. You will give this woman a three thousand dollar advance and it wasn't a question. It wasn't kind of will you please it was no this is how this will oh work it seemed as though <hes> in reading back on her time as an editor that some of the biggest figures in american publishing as soon as they they read her first book were completely enraptured with her. It was not a essentially shoot her out of the publishing industry at a certain point well. Her editor actually had to convince her that she could write full time. It was after a song of solomon that she began to really. He trailed off as an editor in work exclusively on her writing because that's seven years later after bluest eyes published her first book wow but i think it's also because she knew how important the work that she was doing was so when you think of someone who edited huey newton's today for the people angela davis auto biography a little known book that i think we'll get a little more attention now that we're in conversations about reparations again boris becker's the case for black reparations melville hershkovitz is cultural relativism when you think about the work that she's doing this important work so we hear a lot about the black book in here a lot about how she thought that was significant for the culture but i think that she saw mission or she had emission orientation in her work as an editor. It was a little bit more than she was not sure that she could afford to work full time as a writer it was that she had this sensibility that i have a responsibility responsibility to the culture not just as a writer but as a producer of culture as well so she continued to work with authors like gail jones tony kaye bombar even even as after she was a celebrated writer and she actually used her owned status to promote these writers so she knew that she could get a review two of her author's books in the new york times because later she might promise them a review of her book for instance tricia mcmillan cottam. We talked a little bit earlier. In the show about how she was not you know she was actively not interested in engaging the white gays right and reflecting things through how whites might look at it or who through how weitz might look at her writing right she was wanted to reflect life as she experienced it as it as it as it was and as it felt like it was even as she often woe tales of of of magical realism around her characters that said there were criticism at times of her even <hes> or at times especially by black writers saying hey you're writing some stuff about some pretty unflinching looks at behavior. That's not appealing about attributes that are not welcome for us to focus on <hes>. How did she deal with with that criticism well. There's always been a tension <hes> in what the african american creative projects should be if it should be one about writing a counter narrative of black greatness or if it should be an excavation of humanity the in the black experience. I think what tony morrison understood is that those two things are actually not at odds and something as a writer that i absolutely take from her and if said <hes> in my own way <hes> both as a professor and as a teacher and as i do my own intellectual work is that one of the most extraordinary things about any people now is that they are people that we did not need to construct a counter narrative a black life because in doing so we were still centering the story that had uh-huh white people had constructed about us and so the very first thing that tony morrison does when she dissenters whiteness in her narrative is she gets rid of what is i think and fundamentally a false tension which is that you know we must valorize black greatness and exceptionalism. <hes> antonis point is that our humanity mighty is exceptional it becomes even more exceptional given the consequences of our being human and how much an entire world system system was devised and built to delimit black humanity if we are still human under those conditions in all of its glorious aureus messy nece that in of itself is exceptional. There is no tension <hes> their <hes> tonio we started she said to tony morrison often said that she she would start her work with the question <hes> that would animate her character selection of characters and narrative and setting and plot <hes> and i think of that fundamental curiosity acidy about the black experience as being one that really didn't need justification to her critics love who who lodged i think that point <hes> and i'm clearly sympathetic to what those critics are saying but i very much like her thinks that if the work is meaningful <hes> if the work centers a a meaningful story in project and it puts forward a meaningful set of questions and puts at its centre how black people go about creating eating a life and keeping culture alive <hes> against that backdrop then the questions about whether or not valorize us are not actually the good or interesting questions as tony say just not interesting before we wrap up. I wanna play a clip of for morrison was reportedly friendly with <hes> oprah winfrey for more than thirty years. She appeared on the oprah winfrey show in the late nineteen ninety s and here's what she had to say about her children here. When a kid kid walks in the room your child or anybody else's chow do does your face lighter or and that's what they're looking for. Uh when my children used to walk in the room when they were little. I look at them to see if they had buckled. Their trousers of the hair was combed of their stocks. We're up and so you think your affection and your deep love is on display in 'cause you're caring for them. It's not when they see you. They see the critical face and what's wrong now but then if you let your as i tried from then on to let your face speak what's in your heart because when they walked in the room glad to them it's just the smallest that tracy mcmillan cottam we have less than a minute left but i did want to end on this hope so she lets the humanity and the love shine through even these books that are often about dysfunction pain and tragedy well. Yes i think she understood love. Love as a fierce thing that is often tender sometimes painful <hes> sometimes violent but she understood all of that <hes> to be an expression of type of love. <hes> i think i mean that is a very moving segment <hes> to hear talk about that that yet that the fierceness of of love is one dimension of love and so what we might think is a horrible story is in the hands of great artist still fundamentally about love. We've been hearing about the life of tony morrison. She died this week. At eighty eight an equal her friend and colleague russell bank said to herman melville and mark twain. I want to thank our guest tracy mcmillan cottam writer columnist and professor of sociology at virginia commonwealth university author thick and other essays. Thanks so much for coming back to on point. Thank you and i wanna thank dana williams. She's professor of african american literature and chair of the english department at howard university toni morrison's mater. Thanks so much for joining us dana. Thank thank you continue the conversation. Get the point web podcasts at our website on point radio. Dot org are executive producers karen shiffman meet. I'm david folkenflik in this is on point.

Tony morrison writer tracy mcmillan dana williams professor editor david folkenflik tony solomon virginia commonwealth universi tony morrison society Boston russell banks african american literature america twitter howard university russell russell facebook president
Best of 2019: Lower Ed: The For Profit College Scam w/ Tressie McMillan Cottom

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Best of 2019: Lower Ed: The For Profit College Scam w/ Tressie McMillan Cottom

"Giardi Raw Tuesday December twenty four th two thousand Nineteen Name Sam Cedar. This is the five time award winning majority report we are broadcasting live to two steps from the industrial ravage Ghana's canal in the heartland of America Downtown Brooklyn USA. Yes Ladies and gentlemen is Vacation Week. Vast Ashdown best up twenty nine thousand nine hundred which in some instances I believe actually will involve a show from two thousand eighteen because as we actually run a fiscal best of year from November. Due at is there's a lot of regulations involved in that that's one of the big problems uh-huh with big government. These days is that they regulate the hell out of best dubs for podcast and so we have no control over that however we do have control of what we are presenting today. That is a repeat from January. Twenty third of Twenty nineteen going all the way back to the first months of the year. Tracy mcmil McMillan cotton's came on the program her book Lower Ed before profit. College scam GAM. Khadem is an assistant professor of sociology of Virginia Commonwealth University and author of thick and other essays and and We sat down with her while. I'm always sitting down and I don't know what she was doing. She was on the phone so she could have been standing to discuss. Her Book. Lowered the troubling troubling rise of for profit colleges in the new economy. This is This is one of my little bailiwicks for profit offit colleges for a myriad of reasons it was one of the few things that The Obama Administration and had unequivocally done well I think it was was to begin the crackdown on these four profit scams. They didn't go nearly far enough but they started a trend in the right direction and literally literally the day after Donald Trump won the election. That Wednesday ends day for profit colleges stocks. I'm not talking metaphorically. Their stocks on the New York Stock Exchange shot up like a rocket and I do mean rocket not an airplane taking off not even a helicopter. I mean like a rocket and the reason is because there are differences between one four profit it college from another but at the end of the day they are all largely to one degree or another a bit of a scam. Now I also am of the mind that on some level business is a scam. I mean it is. It's it's all about Sort of not all but largely about an a symmetric relationship between people who have have different information levels and so. There's an assumption about college that I think a lot of these people who go to these colleges have and Cottam has of really unique perspective on this. It's not she's not just doing this as I can. As an academic she was actually working at one of these schools. I think she'd actually was a student too. I think at one point. I can't remember this was all the way back in January. You're going to enjoy it and it's we're doing freebie week. Take the Freebie last week as a way of encouraging you in many respects to say like hey become a member because you never know what you can be hearing. This is what a member show. SORTA SORTA like you get the interview up front in the fun stuff after. That's right and the fun stuff man. Boof talk about fun so a stick around for that and don't get you can support this program by becoming member joined the majority report DOT COM join the majority report DOT Com. Check could out thank you so much for your support obviously this year and The Am quickey almost every day. This week you can find it on the the APP at majority APP DOT com. You can find the. Am quickey there or you can just go to am quickie DOT COM and sign up around the news. Five minutes a day and also I Hop on the Youtube Channel as well in the meantime take quick. Break come back Tracy. McMillan caught him Sam Cedar on the majority report on the phone. It's a pleasure to welcome to the program Assistant Professor of sociology at Virginia. Commonwealth University Faculty associated the Berkman Klein Center for Internet and society author of two books thick and other essays and Lower Ed. The troubling rise of for profit often colleges in the new economy. Tracy McMillan cotton welcome to the program. Thank you for having me Sam. So I you know the the the for profit College stuff fascinates me and And you the way in which you came about two route to write of the for profit College University world is also a pretty fascinating. Just let me just let folks know You know how how how you decided to focus on that. Well Yeah. The story is probably less about how I decided decided to focus on it and why and it was possible for me to be doing this project and I probably started this from two thousand ten That I seem to be the only one on. Who Kinda wanted to do this project? I think that is about my personal experience of the for profit college sector but I think that speaks to the fact that there are so few people like me who had ever touched that sector higher education who also in that traditional academic world and so what happened was in graduate school and listen. I was going to do anything but this this project. I wanted to actually studied Ronald Reagan. If you can believe that and instead ended up doing this project because as I was working on my doctoral work for profit colleges were experiencing this Phenomenal boom of enrollment. They were taking him billions of dollars every year from the Federal Student Aid System. And when you start start talking about numbers in the billions people tend to start paying attention and there was a lot of media scrutiny. There was some growing political scrutiny of the for profit college sector but to my mind there had not been sort of a critical engagement with not just Y for profit colleges were so profitable or so popular but about who they were enrolling and I knew you a little bit about who they were enrolling in why that matter because I had before going to graduate school I worked in a four college texture myself as an enrollment officer and so my experience of it was shaped very much by understanding that not everybody will go to the for profit college machine and also that it was the machine and that we probably needed to better understand why millions of people all woke up at one time and decided that they wanted to pursue a college credential an at all costs and when you went to the college sector at all costs was the T- term and and it and it and it was almost I mean literally at one time in two one thousand You had about four hundred thousand. People enrolled in these for profit colleges by now it's over two million is my understanding so so let's just give us a sense of what what we're talking about because you you you you you know you have two different types. Broadly speaking that you have you discussed the generalize it by calling the beauty school and the The technical I guess it is. We retired right here. And so Tell us what this is. And and how they're funding mechanism. Works Right So yeah I do I usually to archetypes and I had experience and actually what I call both of the subsectors of four five colleges one of the things that I think kind of got lost in our lumping all of the institutions together was a misunderstanding. That two different sort of phenomenon happening so on the one hand you have. What have been the sort of historical role of for profit colleges? which was they mostly provide career technical certification and training right and so that was the certificates that you need that were just probably below a college degree maybe maybe even below a two year degree but that you need it to become a certified in occupation so that is a mechanics training cosmetology school? Those are grown out a little bit into things like what we want us to call maybe secretarial programs and now tend to think of broadly administrative or Business Assistant Program and then this growth into the healthcare sector so things like A certified nursing assistant. That's all of these sort of short term credentials usually take you less than two years to complete them but that are necessary requirements for work. I group those under like the Beauty College Paragon and my book and those are a little different in the incentives that people have for attending those schools are a little different than those. That are happening. What I call the Technical College System which the sector that I think most of us were more familiar with in the mid first decade of the two thousand because these were the ones that had all the television commercials? Right Stir University. The University of Phoenix. Cappella And all of those so these programs that were starting an overreach that was historically knew they had started reaching into the four year degrees and beyond they they are offering graduate degrees and things like clinical psychology And nursing and healthcare. They were offering bachelor's master's doctorate degrees and the incentives for people to pursue those degrees will related to the other part but they were not exactly the same and the real growth in the sector actor while a lot of it did happen in that beauty college sector the real growth and the real money real money. The investment from the private sector the investment from shareholders and private equity firms the financial sector was really interested in the growth of that four year degree and beyond the technical college sectors. That call it in the book so on one hand we have have sort of What I you know you could consider it sort of almost a vocational school On some level and the other is this sort of new animal that and we're talking about fortune five hundred companies. Here we're right. I mean we're talking. Hundreds of hundreds of millions of dollars per you know in terms of revenue per year on these country these companies And and that's really where I on some level like the the the action is is right. I mean in that sector and It's fascinating to me because you really I mean I. I'm quite familiar with CERTA. Some of the the dynamics But you look beyond the dynamics and look at what's going on in society that that sort of bring this about but before before we get to that part and Walk people through the the business model of a place like one of these technical what you call technical aside schools because because it is It's I don't WanNa say it's a criminal syndicate in my estimation but It's It's it's close. It's I mean it is the. It is close to being the underside of financial station. which kind of think of it you know it is? It is not not unlike what we saw happening in the mortgage crisis Not Unlike what we're starting to see in the student loan debt crisis and those things are very much related and and that is that Capital looks for something to invest in and as consumers become stretch and can't do much consumer buying right what what becomes profitable are the things that people have to pay for it now. That's the social part and so one of the things that I'm looking at in the book is why did all of a sudden everybody need or want a college. I agree what was it that was so attractive to the investment class about this four year degree and beyond sector that made it so very profitable that system looks like looking at what is going on in the economic system economic structure. We're here. We're talking about the labor market but also people how how comfortable good ball how safe people feel in the economy. What the system is really preying on? It's how vulnerable people feel in. The labor market vulnerability became extremely profitable affordable to the for profit college sector as a solution to position itself as a solution to the workers who are feeling economically vulnerable in the labor market. If you thought that your wages were stagnant which we now know it'd be empirically true people's wages have stagnated over the last twenty five years if you thought your consumer purchasing power had declined. Well you weren't crazy. It had to climb but instead of responding to those things with what we maybe would have done. You know forty years ago with sort of social policy response. What what we told millions of people what this is your fault? This is because you're not competitive enough award. The new jobs of the twenty first century the only way to prove that you are competitive is is to get a degree and to keep pursuing credentials and degrees and to do that in your own individual cost and you call this. The Education Gospel that is correct. It is the Gospel that says it doesn't matter what the reality of the economic relationship is because it is predatory as you point out it is preying on predatory in the true sense of the word. which is that is? Preying upon people's economic vulnerabilities Education Gospel says. Don't worry about those details. Don't worry the about what the economic relationship is or the details of the contractor signing education will always pay off because it has always paid all we were so L. Invested in the Gospel that education could never fail you that I think on the social policy and certainly on the political front. We fell down asking questions about whether or not this specific civic type of education actually paid off for people and what we know now is that the picture is not very good for home that for home that educational investment has paid off for for profit. Colleges are more expensive than most did not traditional most of their traditional not for profit college options students into bear more more individual cost their student. Loans as opposed to stay grants and scholarships or employee benefit. They take one or two complete those programs and as it turns out the labour-market doesn't seem to reward it and higher wages all right so let's talk about About well we should also say that something thing like when you talk about the schools that you mentioned these These bigger For profit universities which are also predominantly dominantly online right We're talking about night's something. In Ninety five percent of their tuition costs Are paid via student loans from the US government right and about legally is supposed to be. We have this ninety ten rule right. What for for profit colleges are held to a standard that night only up to ninety percent of their tuition com from the federal student aid program? The other ten percent is supposed to come from direct right Jewish and payments from either employers or from students. What this is supposed to do? Is You know what this is This is Described as a check on the schools of value to the consumer but ninety percent of course of all is still extremely high and it's only ninety percent in theory because what we've found. Is that many school that doesn't include things like Gi Bill. Money is usually counted in that ten percent and so some institutions when you count up all of the government subsidized payments coming to them. Approach approach something far closer to as you said to that ninety five percent coming from publicly subsidized Dallas. All right so give us a sense of of a demographically who these. These students tend to be their age. their background. Because they're they're they're a lot of these students are similarly situated right there. They are there but they also don't necessarily have the the the social The the social cash cash Or the The networking to enter into traditional of higher red schools. Or be aware more. They they can't they can't afford to because they've got to take care of children or the about the responsibilities. Exactly I think the real telling cystic and The for profit college sectors demographics is engender. Actually and then the book. I talk a lot about race class. Engender really think gender is the biggest piece because it tells I think exactly that stories which this about sixty anywhere between sixteen seventy four percent depending on which. What's your take? It hasn't changed much of the last. Ten years of those enrolled in for profit college sector are women This is really a gender problem that I think really. We speaks to why people would attend schools. People are attending them mostly because they have already been disadvantaged in the paid labor market. We know all of the General Statistics and trend lines. How much more credential women have to be to be paid equal salaries in the labor market? How much more difficult it can be for them to have upward mobility ability into higher income positions? But we also know that bigger story that women tend to be the ones more likely to be carrying children And when you're talking about the age range of the a student this is we tend to think of them as quote unquote non traditional. But that just means doesn't always necessarily mean they're older it usually just means that they are caring for also caring for a child When you're talking about people in that position they're also more likely to be caring for parents? It's the very familiar story for many of us. Trapped between caring for children and caring for aging parents and their economic position than not need need to not only take care of themselves but they are really trying to take care of a whole family right and so when they are having problems. Moving up or getting secure employment in the labor market. They are especially vulnerable to a message. That sounds like this call today. Start School tomorrow get a degree fast. Get a better paying job almost immediately. Because that's the message right call. Today's start tomorrow. Change Your Life. Well that's the message that would be more attractive to people. For whom changing their life means changing the laws for their children for their elderly parents Federa and that's women and removed from their of those enrolled in the four profit college sector. They are more likely to be African American Hispanic low income students. It's not not to say that men don't attend and they certainly do matter of fact that white students don't attend but when we're looking at like the typical face and next time your listeners are maybe looking at those commercials. It's a really good indicator when you look at who they put in the commercials right there number only women who are talking about. They'RE GONNA do their homework whether kids are sweet. That's that tells you who. They know their ideal. Typical student is and those. Those people are particularly vulnerable to that message and are especially vulnerable to taking on student loan debt to pay the kind of chance and we should say that when the my understanding of it is and and and walk me through this but the there's a quality quality that reminded me In the way that they get paid that reminded me of of working in commercial radio. The key to commercial radio was always you want to hold people over the first. You know the the next quarter hour if you get past that and there's a there's there's a dynamic in in these schools that is like this based upon the schedule in which student loans are dished out. Is that right. That is correct. So the goal of the of the enrollment enrollment machine that I talk about in describing the book. is to get students enrolled as quickly as possible. The idea being that the more time and the more opportunity students have to reflect on their decision. The more likely you are to lose them right so you want it to get them when they called. You wanted to come in immediately to sign their paperwork and to get their federal financial aid application completed as quickly as possible. And I mean we're talking in many cases within a week which sounds very odd to those of us who went through like a traditional college system? So that's why I wanNA put some the numbers on this. We're not talking weeks or months we're talking you call on a Tuesday you visit on Wednesday. You're rolled when you leave Wednesday and your financial aid paperwork is done by that Friday. Then the next goal there is to get them started in a class as quickly as possible depending on when you make that phone phone call what we call rolling enrollment dates going on meaning. There's almost always a new class. Starting your rarely waiting more than two weeks to start in the next class and and that was important because the federal student system will not pay the tuition until they have what we call. But in-seat right students lettings to be in the they've gotta gotTa show up on that first day of class. The attendance during that first three weeks at first moncus school is critically important. Because that's how the student is in counted for student aid purposes before the check sent nine and then the money the lion share of that tuition enrollment comes up front. There's there's certainly other dollars that come as a student continues eighteen years on in school but the students quite valuable there at the earliest part of that process or that him and then and then the retention retention becomes an important metric for these schools right because they want that second check right right not even so much completion because there's no bonus for like getting rid completed there can't be a penalty for them not completing but it is about making sure they are there through the deadline. The cutoff deadlines for the student a payment and so when you were working in in admissions like how much. What kind of data did they they provide you with in terms of return on investment? That's what fascinates me because I feel like I feel like if these schools in my understanding is they take a tremendous amount of of data about their students. As a way of of sort of like how do we market to them. How do we keep them in the seats? How do we get them in the seeds? And how do we key and we're being being metaphorical with the seats right. Because they could theoretically be doing it online But but what you never see is seventy five percent of our students end up making thirty percent more two years out after graduation or some figure like that that would be. That's the key metric isn't it. It is and now this is where I kinda wanted to be fair. We don't actually have a good metric on that for any of higher education. The problem is is probably less of a problem if you went to a traditional not for profit college right so we haven't had to be as doug about that kind of data. That's actually I think. One of the weaknesses and our data system that four kinds of colleges have exploited the fact that we have not had great data on employment returns for all students have made it pretty easy easy for the for profit college debts. Say Well. Hey it's not like we're falling down a job. Nobody has this data. They're right. They're just not being they're just not They're just don't don't have the right motivation when they say that We do not have excellent data on How much a student earns after they graduate? Some of that is the IT systems fault. Some of that is the for profit college sectors. What I will say is I talked to people who managed the marketing for profit colleges and they have better data than what is? It's often publicly available to us. How unions are doing it is that they are not compelled to release it and they do not really sit? 'EM USE IT in their marketing materials to the students what was more common for us to slide this Disclosure agreement across to the students that the US Department of Education has required for profit traffic colleges. Do they have to usually provide things like disclaimers about Um your student loan debt. They have to provide disclaimers about the graduation rates and their job placement data. But that usually look something like this. It was usually about how much people in this type of job would earn what they didn't usually break it out to say was. This is how much people in this job. Who got their degree from US have earned so for example USA? Hey I want to get a certificate and you know electrical engineering And we'd say all right. We offer that degree program. Here's what people with. An electrical engineering certificate earns last year according to to outlook handbook. That's what we tell them but we did not separate out and break out but this is how much students who earn their degree with us are making incident job and that's a level of like finesse. That very few people have to push back against the college to after that level of detail and and and and and can you say that you. You're convinced that these Institutions as it were have data on on what the return on investment is at at least to some extent and. I think it's fairly obvious that if it was gangbusters. We'd know about it right. Yeah that's what I believe if it's great Awesome right like you should definitely lead with that information. I've certainly said the same thing and they are admittedly. There are some smaller programs and some of the college that do do extremely well often because they are attached to other type of Arrangements right right. They have a direct line for example like they're training people to work get. At and T. and at and T. has agreed to hire x amount of P. That's just but those are anomalies for the most part most of the students are going through these sort of generalized degree program. are relying on employers to decide whether or not their their degree means something And because of that they're usually competing with people who have degrees from other other places And their wages often do not look comparable And I suspect that if the for most for profit colleges had data that says that they were doing that significantly we'd better than average. They were certainly advertise it. I would imagine if they're doing average they would advertise. It is my guest but I mean I'm not a marketing guy so I don't know eh but but we should say I mean just to be fair. I've heard of some programs where you come in and they will Your fee you don't even even pay until you make back A certain percentage of your income. I mean there are programs that are set up better and I think some of these I think folks associated with it are striving to in certain instances. I mean like give me a sense of what the people working there. You're like how much was your awareness as you're sitting there saying like you know. This seems a little weird That were talking about a return on investment. which is why everybody walking through the doors here right like you know? Hey it is I do not for profit school Some schools you know some liberal arts schools you no people are there for citizen. I WanNa be a better citizen or I. I don't have to worry about my finances or whatever it is but clearly most most of the people walking through that door like I'm here because in two years I want to be making thirty percent more than I'm making today. What ended absolutely fair? I mean the the colleges themselves say of their marketing data that the number one reason that their prospective students and enrolls students held them that they enrolled in school or start at school with them. It was to earn more money immediately right so that I mean I mean. The students tend to be making a very sort of rational economic exchange when they attend a four college in the way that is less true in traditional additional especially on campus for degree programs that we have this sort of broader like you said Liberal Arts mission and where the value of college can be a bit more subjective I I remember feeling I mean I had gone to a traditional colleges myself did a few of my colleagues their their Roman off. It's so we knew it was different than our own experience variance And I remember being troubled by and I talk a little about that in the book but having absolutely no words for describing why I was uncomfortable. So so these words about things like you know social inequality and You know who's who can who can make the sit out the take on. The opportunity pretended costs of sitting out the labor market. Go back to school. None of us had that language I will say some of us were less concerned with it than others but I do like to point out. I think everybody everybody there stay for a few sort of extreme cases fundamentally thought that the Education Gospel worked and so if we were offered an opportunity for people apple to better themselves if it was costing them a lot of money that was still better than nothing. What where did get stickier is that there were admissions? People who would say things like like I myself would not go to college this way right. I wouldn't go to school here or I wouldn't allow my children to go to school here but this is still a good option optioned for quote unquote other people and that's where I thought When people felt uncomfortable over wrestling with those ideas that's where it usually manifested? Okay and and this is I mean. That's fascinating I it because I think there is this sort of of quality of like you know I don't know The both an ignorance to the reality of what's being offered and sort of predisposition to I presume there's nothing else that can be done for these folks right and that is that. Let's talk a little bit about that part because the Obama Administration started to crack down on some of this by basically saying you're not eligible for student loans and and correct me if I'm wrong on this but you're not eligible for student loans unless you use specific accrediting Companies or certain accrediting values and and you know they said too I think it was Carinthian. Itt like your credit air your creditor that's not real. We don't buy and then their loans owns dried up and their business dried up overnight and they had to close but that was insufficient. Because why well. It doesn't solve the problem right so You know we can think of this in our own lives. You know the grocery store closing down to the grocery store you really. We like to your home closed down. That doesn't solve the problem that you need groceries breaking the problem. The real root of the problem was the demand not supply and Yeah and point about these schools that that did rely significantly on federal student aid dollars and they lose their accreditation. You tend to lose your ability diligent student aid. And that's pretty much the end of usually any Four profit college school. I said to be fair for all schools But the accreditation piece the Obama Administration and was becoming more particular about the data they requiring the for profit college just to provide to judge whether or not they were meeting the threshold providing a quality education. Now the for profit colleges just say debate to the death whether or not. That's a fair assessment of them whether they should be held to that standard or not And whether the metric it's fair but that is what the Obama Administration was doing What I will say is that what Obama Administration and really no administration has done in quite some time is is really Russell? However with that bigger problem there was this recent report that just came out a couple of months ago I think from the Center for American Progress said the job skills myth the job? You may have been a myth right. Well that's all I would writing about. What many of us have been writing about for some time? That what we have been telling people The social inequality problem in the labor market was not about people not having the right skills And instead of solving that problem and being honest in our political rhetoric to say this is not about how employers not having the right skills this is about employers not wanting to pay fair wages. This is about us not holding employers to task for Their tax responsibility there was a lot of play And I will say that. Nobody had really hit on the political rhetoric that I think saw the problem of demand and that was why for profit colleges remain somewhat popular with people demand has not dried up because there's still a demand for a good quality of life with good wages and they're still making that promise and we want to be really explicit about this so people understand so the the myth was that there was a mismatch in our workforce with their education education and all the research now shows a big report came out very recently. I and I think it was from the Center for Economic my August I am regardless regardless basically showed that in fact what was happening is As it became more of a buyer's market it for employers. They just got more narrow in what they would accept From people rather than a certain skill sets being needed. But but we're also talking about people who are already employed more often than not right when you're going to these files right. These are people who just want to get better wages and be able to care for their your family's so we have a right not so much of a lack of employment Situation but rather poor pay for people who are doing decent work And and so we. We had this. I mean on some level. I feel like the educational story in in this sector is not terribly different than when we see education in the context of of of K.. Through twelve insofar as we're looking at schools to to deal with societal ills really not your portfolio that is correct and what these that that is really the big story and the tougher story. Frankly people don't like the story when I say people you know. I think it's hard for politicians. I think it's hard for policy people To get a good story with just so deeply invested in the narrative but the real story here is that it is not just possible but now I think we can empirically argue that it is true that colleges colleges cannot and school k through twelve or K.. Through sixteen cannot saw these larger social ills. That the real problem of wages was never about the human mm-hmm in capital of the workers. Working jobs And so when you told people that story all you did was make them very valuable To The financial sector who were able able to exploit that fear by selling credentials but that does not solve the problem that would workers are really facing is a really tough path. They're not just a good job. But were called internal mobility the promotions over time for your wages to increase over time when you work at a job and after five years that you should be earning more than when you started. Those kinds of problems are not human capital problems and and we should say it's interesting. What's implicated here? Because the the the the access to government loans clearly drove up the prices of these places right. Because they're just they're basically fixing their tuition as has a function of that ninety ten rule with we're gonNA make our We're GONNA make our tuition costs. Ten percent more than whatever is available for people in terms of government loans and that dynamic of course would be fixed in many respects reversed if we instead of. I'm having a massive loan program. We provided at least one or do free options per state. That's maybe a separate issue but I want a separate issue. I actually think it's a super important ones. I was wondering that argue for that. The real competition. We thought that the competition that needed to happen in the higher education quote unquote market with. You need it more institutions and that's what we saw happen Nineteen Ninety two thousand ten when we created tons of new institutions but but as long as the student aid system is under a writing all of those institutions. Thanks that's not actually creating more competition They would just increase the size of the Pie hot and just taking more students. That's what the poor collar sector really was real competition com through true accessible affordable options. And the only people who can do that the only entity that can do that is the state And so I actually believe. That's the real solution interesting. And so let me ask you this. Just as we broaden this out because I want to just touch on in your and I will confess not having read thick yet but I will also say it is. It is right on the top of my list of things to read how acceptable. I appreciate that. Thank you for that but I mean how would the issues that you talk about in thanked. Give me to the extent that I know what it's about is is addressing Your experience Largely and also I think the experience of other people who are within our society who are in you know Folks who are similarly positioned who may a you know may be targeted because they're the most vulnerable Particularly when they feel this pressure Economically or by race or by I gender Draw the the the connective tissue between these two books for me. That's a great question. Actually because to me the connective tissue was always there and and I laugh sometimes when after I did have to do this was published. You're going down to me. And this is all part of the same story when they asked me to sort of position. The book In many ways my thinking about lower edge started with asking a very basic question which was wow a lot of these for profit colleges have a lot of black women old. Why is that and by starting from there? You've got to all of these larger issues. Not because there was something unique about black women in but there was something unique about when a predatory system is built it almost always starts with the most vulnerable people in society. That's how that's how predation Russian works And so if we're profit colleges where a predatory economic arrangement which I argue that they are It made sense that it would start serving parts of the population that were poorly served by other institutions. So that means women and people of Color disproportionately so my question start there and one of the argument larger large arguments of the new collection of essays. Where you know take that through looking at technology I take it by looking at popular culture and Policy Policy and media is that that story is true over and over again and that was what we learn when you pay attention to who was most vulnerable in assist awesome? You understand the system. Better one of the reasons why. I think I was able to write lower Ed and hadn't been written before by someone else's that you do get a clarity about how a system is working when you look at its weakest point right so I was able to say. There's something here about the relationship between student loan money And Economic Insecurity and labor market changes There has to be something here because look at what's happening with this subset. The people In in many ways all I'm saying across his collection of essays is it that reveals a lot of important information about our system no matter what part of the system and that we're looking at to what extent do do do black women in particular because you note that they are in in many respects the most or at least a one of the groups that is most susceptible to these these type of predatory specifically because they're not being served by other institutions right. What extent is is there an awareness of that as a systemic problem? And I ask only because I've I've talked to people who've done ethnography. He's of people who've who've lost their homes in foreclosure in the in the way foreclosure crisis rises and there wasn't necessarily a big understanding that their experience was not unique that it wasn't version of the decisions that they had made but rather it was launching of decisions that have been made by people they they didn't know Right right what. What is your sense of that? That of that of of the awareness of those folks as As as being In this predicament. Commit because of the system rather as opposed to decisions that may have made. Yeah I think that overall we have a real positive language talk about systems thinking right in our culture and I I mean we see this over and over again we talk about. Oh you know who are these stupid people who signed up for these bad loans right and then I'll take us ten years of excavating the whole mass to find out that one didn't need to be stupid One needed to just be there need a home because there was all of this other stuff happening around them that that foreclosed upon good decisions right. It's not the people often just making the Poor's decision available. It's it's not. A lot of decisions are foreclosed upon for you The reality is if you want to. For example go to college in the United States of America today it helps a lot if you have always had people who are pushing you to go to college if you had access to well-funded equitable K.. Through twelve schools if you had access to a safe secure home in a safe neighborhood if you had good nutrition And then if you could make it to the finish line with a high school diploma Knowing about all of your college options and have all the money in the time in the world to apply. Well those types of decisions if you're twenty four and you didn't have those things nothing about your decision. Making at twenty four is going to override the twenty three years that preceded that year right right. No certain options are foreclosed. It closed upon for you. That's what I mean about systematic thinking and that's not having a really good language to talk about it and popular culture. It is easier story to the right to say oh x person right. Lisa decided ex and look at how horrible her life is easier story to write than it is to write this big sprawling in story but the reality is and where we can usually affect the most change but understanding. Why do some people have some options and not others right and and But I but I wonder. How much of an awareness is there of that within within amongst let's say a black black women but yeah I don't know that we are different than most Americans and that? We don't have much language to talk about that either. I think One of a stunning thing that came out to me and the interviews I did for Lower Ed With how many of the students absolutely blamed themselves Even when we were talking detail about you know their biography and what have brought the mayor And this is just shows up in lots of social science work over and over again. Poor people for example writ large large tend to blame themselves for their own poverty right over and over again. We see that kind of Language I think that precisely because black women like most the people in this country. Just don't have a language to talk about the systems thinking and actually we look around. I mean they're not a lot of politicians certainly who are good at talking about it a lot of their politicians I mean at the very least. There's a there's I mean we have at the very least one party that is completely league. One hundred percent committed to making the argument that it is a failure of personal responsibility. But the fact is that you know the Democratic Party even Barack Barack Obama The idea of personal responsibility who took the forefront allot more than any notion of systemic failure have been. Yeah absolutely I mean I I take that the task I actually quite a bit In an essay in the new book about It the Barack Obama Administration nation was not a departure from that. He embraced wholeheartedly. The idea of cultures of poverty that create people who advocate responsibility responsibility for themselves And I WANNA be clear. Of course. There's always some individual choice and of course there's always individual agency what. I argue that lots of people like me of argue is that we overstate how much that can change. People's circumstances while completely obscuring all of the structural stop. There's like you you said one party who is ideologically opposed to the idea of a system or structure and then the other side. There's a party who has to sometimes give lip service to it. But that increasingly feels the need because they're chasing them Medical Center Party Center voter Feel the need to double down on the idea personal responsibility so we really don't have a political party a major political party that is dedicated to using very precise language about some of the horrible bowl predatory behaviors that happen to us and our systems dressy McMillan cotton author of Lower Ed. The troubling rise of for profit colleges in the New Economy and thick and other essays. I want to have you back on after I read The thick I hope you. Ah I hope you'll make it. I will do that. I'm a hold you to it. In fact I appreciate that. Thank you so much for joining us today. Really great great stuff. Thank you thank you for having me. let's first go to the Fox News Bernie townhall townhall play a couple of clips from there. This is Scuba number three where we had mentioned earlier that Bret Baier had to sort of maintain some semblance of being the straight news guy and so I am not going to feel quite as humiliated when when I take a survey of the audience and find that everything. I've been promoting on Fox. News for over a decade is not popular with the people who are here for some reason Now this was done. This town hall was in Bethlehem Pennsylvania. I don't I mean if if you had told me that this was done at the auditorium at the University of Vermont and that I would have been like Oh that makes sense but this audience I Dunno Fox. News doesn't have a lot of tent but this audience seemed to be incredibly amenable to to a Bernie Sanders and his policies which theoretically have been maligned on Fox News for ages and hear Martha McCallum. Tom And I think this is getting towards the end of the Of the thing. Where there's I think these two hosts are gotta feel feel like we have in some way failed because we're not getting that moment or the series of moments where we have exposed Bernie Ernie Sanders for either having policies that don't make sense or having policies that are not popular with this broad section of people and so I think there's a lot of frustration involved in this and you can see Martha McCallum and display exchange because Vermont tried to have single payer program and in two thousand fourteen? The Democratic Governor Governor abandon it because he had to raise income taxes and payroll taxes and the people of Vermont. Didn't want to go in. And they abandoned internal Vermont politics of which I know a little bit. I'm saying I don't want to be. The governor. Did a rather poor job but I think if you look look at polling especially among Democrats. I'm sure you have you tell me strong. Majority of Democrats and more than a few Republicans want to see a medicare for all what the opponents. Let's be clear about this month when you're dealing with an healthcare which is was that eighteen percent of GDP. I mean we're talking about three and a half trillion dollars and you have insurance companies that make billions and billions of dollars in proper. Let me give you an example if I might of the dysfunctionality dysfunctionality of the current healthcare system recently aetna merge with CPS you may recall that big merchant which will drive health care costs. Also the gentleman who was head of AETNA's Dame Mr Berta leany got putting together that merger got five hundred hundred million dollar bonus dot com. We should spend help. I think everybody is in agreement. That healthcare needs to be fixed in this country. The question is how and my question to you was. It will drive up taxes to pay for healthcare and not just the wealthy will pay for the middle class will also so. So how do you justify it. And what are you not including in your discussion. You tell me I will tell you. You're not here to health insurance premiums. The author Taxi Your Payroll Tax Book. Healthcare is love free. Free University suggests that we're GONNA Martinez was going to be free for everyone. It's going to be free at the point of when you use it. Okay in Google to. Why're you so shocked chalkboard this one? I think we'll get through this together. Okay Okay Senator Sanders. How it's firstly? You're a canoe are self employed and you have a husband and two kids okay. Family of four the on how much family is paying today for Healthcare County. Twenty eight thousand awesome dollars all right. We're spending eleven thousand dollars per person. We are saying to that family of four. You Ain't GonNa pay that twenty eight thousand you're not paying. Any more premiums are not paying any any walk copayments. You're not paying any more deductibles. How's that twenty-eight thousand you not paying but the thought and you're not gonNA pay something of course it does you'll go to pay more taxes and do members of Congress who have gold plated? How's it for one second now? Now this is a really fascinating because like that is that you can almost Z.. Martha like looking like a little bit. Flush their right like she's like she doesn't have anything else to say. He's just conceded seeded. What she thinks is the sort of like the the the you know the the stake through the heart of this program where he says Yeah No? Of course you're GONNA pay more aren't taxes you're going to pay less for premiums that is the easy calculation here and there has been a and the thing is is that there is no there has been no one who has been able to produce a report. There's been no research there's been no estimates even the MOCATTA study from The right wing think tank. There has been nothing released by by anyone. Who can who can refute that Central Dynamic and the thing that Bernie's doing that is different from when they talked about where in Vermont it failed was a governor showman? I think it was his name. The the thing that Bernie is doing and we used to get calls from. I'm John From San Antonio would call in all the time about this. Very point is that you must lead with the idea that taxes are going to be raised her because taxes are going to be raised and Bertie makes it is free at the point of service and it is free when you pay for it. But you're not free you're going to have to pay for it. It's going to be in taxes and middle-class people as well as wealthy people are going to pay more in taxes but but the net expenditures are going to be less. Because you're not going to be paying for premiums and for basically the prophets and end the inefficiencies in the private insurance market and then you know it is even bring up the fact like and then the other good news is you're not gonNA have to deal with a tremendous hassle like like I have like spreadsheets. I have a Google drives with an I take pictures of like you know. Salt Sol's therapy and I take the pictures I upload them and then I see if the you know my insurance you're GonNa pay form and I got decent insurance good but the thought being you're not gonna pay something of of course. Does you'll go to pay more in taxes and do members of Congress who now have gold plated health insurance. We don't well. They have a special plan. That's outside obamacare a different plan or do member members of causing one second. You know who has a plan. That's outside of Obamacare. Most almost everybody the only people ten million people in this country who have plan inside of Obamacare. And you have something like two hundred and seventy two hundred eighty million people covered by insurance and this way unless you want to define the Obamacare as patient protection act in which case everybody's covered by it and every loves well has different healthcare thing just like Bret Baier has the I'm just saying if he's using it. Of course we know that in terms of actual oh plans but the patient protection component of it is national and protects a lot of like. He's talking about the exchange. Here I think obamacare has more than just the exchanges right. What's Medicaid too? But I think the real question is why Bret Baier bringing this up. Now because like Bernie has now destroyed mccown's one critique AAC and so he's pivoting to can't really trust Congress people because you guys good. You're you're you're out of this. You're going to try and be out of this whole system. That's where he's going with this. Go back back a little bit and you'll see this is this is the they have now gone from the Alamo to like the next redoubt right like where it's like. Okay we're GONNA go to the farthest reaches of the Alamo. Because we're we need we need to figure out some way of undercutting this and it's the classic well we can't trust government and because because politicians all why does you'll go to pay more in taxes and do members of Congress who now have gold plated health insurance. We don't well. They have a special plan. That's outside outside obamacare. Different plan do member members of Congress. Are they going to do that. Transition is of course. I WanNa make the plumber. I want to get back puzzling. This list where Bret Baier. If he's really on game or mcallen issues really on a game she's GonNa go well because this is the last the last refuges. How many pages is it? Because that was that was the way that it went with uh-huh with obamacare right. There was a problem with the program and then it was like well. Congressman aren't gonNA put themselves in it and then it was. It was over one hundred pages like literally. This was a talking point at the time I that Glenn Beck Rally. I went to one of the common complaints about the Obamacare was. Nobody knows what's in it and they passed it. It's over one hundred pages. There shouldn't be anything. Everybody's the same four pages that'd be the top US. We'll probably be shorter bill. The got combat me Bro. I WanNa make the point. I want to get back to the point of the race. Look healthcare costs money every other country virtually every country. Does it in the same way. We do. Education for Kids Watson to school kid doesn't have to take out a credit card right. It's paid for out of public funds. That's what most countries do. So if you're asking me if your question is a fair question the people going to pay more taxes yes but at the end of the day the overwhelming majority of people are going to end up paying less for health. Care the paying premiums Ho payments and the doctor. We're going to get it out there. We think I handled that that pretty well. There you go smooth Bernard all the great and what I love about Bernie is like some people people contrasted spin with complexity right. Like oh well. If you're speaking in spin and soundbites thing you're not acknowledging how complicated these issues are. He's great because it's like actually is super simple and he has great message discipline but it's also clear and honest and direct but the the the key is what John from San Antonio would call in years ago to complain about earn honest leading with the taxes and that was there was an attempt attempt by I think Democrats for a long time and part of it. was you know back in the day. Like Walter Mondale and whatnot was. If you say you're going to raise taxes the American American public is necessarily going to have a problem with as if there is no argument as if the American public cannot understand the concept that right now you're paying ten ten dollars for something and if you we can eliminate that ten dollar expense but it will cost you six dollars and didn't also Mondale John Dill if I didn't he like sort of basically say like we're going to just taxes as austerity to pay off the deficit or something. If I know if I've heard that correctly it was not presented as it was something like we need to pay for things like presented as part of a ambitious was here wings. No agenda as far as I can tell you for what it's worth you think of Obama. They they soft pedaled obamacare costing something. And I'm very much more pissed about having a having my premiums Liam's jacked up than having my taxes. Oh yeah or you know getting a kind of not that good silver plan and finding out. It's still cost one hundred dollars if I need to go to the doctor for for a sick visit which is the thing that happened to me. Yes and so. This was by leading with that taxes. It makes it also makes his job. Frankly easier because there's other people have to try and hide the ball and he's not trying to hide the Bali's trying to say like look at the ball ball. Ben Shapiro has the reputation of being a great intellectual now. I'll say that I am actually dealing with his new book because I have to write a chapter about him for my book and one of the themes of my book is that this is this whole modern right wing sort of frame and ID w view is a massive fight against history society in general and wall. You know obviously Sam. Harris's structurally historical Jordan Peterson has has his mythology over history. Kind of thing. I would argue Ben Shapiro does does like I don't even know like nineteen fifties Reader's digest sort of cartoon. I guess if like I don't know if like if like a seventh seventh-grader watched like Red Dawn or something and and got like a quotable book of six I if he was very dumbed. I'm down stuff if he didn't start as a teenager and instead was just like a forty year old national review editor with his exact same opinions. He'd be utterly unremarkable trouble. Well I think a lot of people think that you know Joan Goldberg sort of had a reputation of being you know not bright guy but a guy who had pretensions of of intellect but was sort of broadly understood to be you know a a nepotism case with very limited capacity So here is Ben Shapiro. He's talking engineer now. Andrew Neil is a white right-wing figure in a British context. I believe he's the editor of the spectator is something of chairman spectator spectators right-wing. Yeah but Don't blame him for the spectator writing. Puff pieces about Golden Dawn for instance. Because he's not notorial control. Yeah that's what he said. Owen Jones went after him for that. And I don't like don't put that on me. I'm only the chairman of the whole magazine. Sure Okay but you know. He's so yes a man of the right. But he's able to do. I mean this is just a British interview. They interviewed any of us. They would go like you say you support socialism however socialism is killed million. So you want people to die but Ben Shapiro's in his bag he's triggered. He's in his feelings. And this is an is also just a home a little whiny little thing. Let's check this out. It is intellectual Intellectual sneering of the highest order suggests that only the left has as knew indecent ideas in some of the ideas that are popular in your side of politics. would seem to take us back to the Dark Ages Georgia new abortion laws which you are much in favor of The women miscarry could get thirty years. A Georgia Georgia women who travels to another state for over an abortion procedure. Could get ten years. These are extreme hard policies. Well okay a couple of things one. I'm not sure I mean frankly. I don't know whether you're are you an objective journalist or are you an opinion journalists. Ask questions okay. So you're you're a supposedly objective journalists calling policies with which you disagreed barbaric side of the political I do. We'll just remind you that we highlighted a case a couple days ago of an eleven eleven year old rape victim who is pregnant and as that law is currently written could be forced to carry that baby to term. I don't know what other word you would reserve. Barbara's before let alone imprisoning woman for exercising control over their health. I mean to say the least but you know so you know but then again he's getting very triggered and freaked out by this and this is so interesting I mean there's an entire brand that was built off of going to college campus and you know superficially through word tricks and gamesmanship a- vis rating some eighteen year old who asks them a question and he can't even deal with one just sort of basic round of British questioning which anybody who has any. I mean it's kind of studying that that bej borough has this little exposure British media as as it seems to appear but anyway go ahead the abortion one will continue but this is the beginning of a prolonged tantrum barbaric. It's only one side of the political aisle notes S. ideas so I just want to point out food at least be honest in your own. Are you doing in America is now so polarized on one program. You only have the left and another one you just the right. My job is to question. Those who have strong views Putin O- towns of to them if you were an asthma. I'm user person I would including pro-abortion questions to you but you are really so let me ask you question question Sir Sir. I'm happy to answer question. Please introduce one. Would you suggest. Would you suggest that a late term. Abortion is brutal. I'm not taking his in West. I want to pause it here and bring in our friend Tim Bond Toast yet his Section from this Dave Rubin Dave Rubens Battle of ideas. Part three explains exactly the little move. That Ben Shapiro does called the Martin Bailey. This is real analyzing the thing Stefan says is a fallacy policy called the Motte and Bailey the phrase Motte and Bailey comes from medieval castles which had a particular structure a gated courtyard area. Outside the Benei where the main settlements were and then a heavily fortified stone keep high up on the hill the Motte everyone would retreat to what hostile forces approached. The baby is vulnerable the open to attack. But the Motte is safe unassailable the motte and Bailey fallacy revolves around trying to defend controversial position. Bailey by defending spending a loosely connected commonsense assertion which is impossible to argue against a motte. An example of this would be if I said that women don't belong in the workplace and then when asked to defend my position I said you can't deny there are biological differences between men and women you can see how the two concepts here so you see. That's exactly basically what he's doing pivoting from this bill to the specific question of late term abortion. Now I don't know how he's defining late term abortion but we do know that quote unquote late term abortions in terms of you know like the baby's about to be do are performed only instances where the mother's life is is at risk period and we also know that Donald Trump and others are running around the country just lying about killing babies after they're born so I don't know what kind of Spin Shapiro's trying to do on this but he did Amonte Bailey and he's also being disingenuous about what that actually means and I also would would like to say you know in terms of the sacredness of life. Well we'll we'll get to what Ben Shapiro said about Trayvon Martin after the rest of this clip clip suggest that a late term. Abortion is brutal. I'm not taking questions Sir. You just suggested the pro life position is inherently brutal and terrible. So I'm asking you as an objective journalist. Would you ask the same questions but pro. Choice advocate calling brutal. I'm asking US why. Why is that a bill? Banning abortions after women's has been pregnant for six weeks is not a return to the dock ages. What's your answer? My answer is something called Science Ryan. Human life exists at conception. It ought to be protected now back to my question to you you purport to be an objective journalist. BBC purports to be an objective down the middle network. It obviously obviously is not it never has been and us. Journalists are proceeding to call one side of the political aisle ignorant barbaric and sending us back to the Dark Ages. Why don't you just say that you're on the left so so hard for this? It's a serious question. If you only knew how ridiculous that statement is you have said it. So let's move on I Act I listen to love. Because it's like Ben Shapiro has built this whole like ludicrous sad brands of of like you know the sort of like Fo- you know this ridiculous postures visitation and he's he's having an exchange with basically league what he's sort of indirectly molded his whole this whole dom persona off of I mean. I'm sure you know. He's studied the Buckley tapes and everything even though he has none of that. What kind of fluidity? But like this is what it all comes back to. It comes back to sort of like high Tories sort of like the stain. And he's on the receiving end of it and he doesn't even know he's talking to he thinks Andrew Neil is like Labour's something that this is this is genuinely mind blowing that this this guy has a brand and intellectual. I just like to remind everybody I mean I guess you know and I think this is true clearly for a lot of these people that when they're done and obviously services really about controlling women's lives and Tommy and bodies but even if we were to stipulate and we never should but I will for this specific instance that there's a concern about babies I don't know when that concern stops but if you remember several years ago in two thousand thirteen there was an innocent teenager who was killed by George Zimmerman named Trayvon Martin and Ben Shapiro said in reality Trayvon. Martin was a fully grown man with a history of violence. You've got into a fight with a Hispanic man. George Zimmerman undisputed circumstance has then was shot in the chest while being Zimmerman's head into the pavement. So he took of course Zimmerman's and his lawyers account at face value. We do know that weaver men a very disturbed person was following and stalking. I believe trailers only thirteen years old And and this child ended up murdered And then as Hassan piker says Ben. Hitler could have been rehabilitated. But trayvon Martin had a-coming Shapiro so After this just after embarrassing himself by throwing that Tantrum and asserting that he was talking to some type of of anti conservative journalist The interview went on until and we're cutting some of it. The whole eighteen. Eight minutes is pretty funny revealing but full thing is back. She's sixteen so the mark quite a bit of okay. This is the last the last this is when we finally have our this is when the This is one of the How dare you sir you know? Read one of Ben's thriller alert levels to really show because he had to he had to show what it was serves. A really fly in the servers are flying it. As you're saying your book you say is the key phrase. We are so angry at each other right now but as I say on you part of that anger on you encouraging anger for example you you described described Mr Obama's state of the Union address in twenty twelve as fascist mentality in action. Well well I think that if you want if you want to argue with the characterization then we can talk about what exactly his State of the Union address said is he charged language and politics. Sure the problem that I have is not with with charged language in politics which generally in favour of I like a robust public debate in a very loud and spirited public debate. I have no problem with that whatsoever. What I'm talking about? What is the assumption that people with whom we disagree politically are inherently of bad character or in your words wants to bring us back to the dark ages but again it was your description of the state of the the Union address in twenty twelve as fascist wording of of President Trump's twenty twelve address? was he so flat and wrong. That's the plenty penny. Things are bad and wrong but it doesn't make fascist. Well I suppose that's true but if you get if you'd like to read out loud That that was logic. Edger deal just gave them a little A. V. There you'd like to read me the column out loud I suppose I can critique it for you oh well again with Mr Obama you said Judy. You're you're Jewish yourself. I only mention that because this in context the Jews who vote for Obama are buying large the Jews in name only China's you call them. Nice statement was based on the fact that Jews in the United States as an ethnic group are largely irreligious which destroyed by every single. Poll is the most religious group in the United States as an Orthodox Jew who actually takes Judaism. Seriously the point that I'm making is that most Jews who are ethnically Jewish are not religiously Jewish in any context of the point. You were making is the Jews who vote for Obama are Jews in name only I said I said yes that is correct that Jews who voted for Barack Obama a progenitor of the Iran. Deal a person who was cracking down on religious liberty. A person who's spent much of his career as president into the United States attempting to deprive Israel the necessities to defend itself was that I'm sorry I mean I i. There's just a few things in this torrent of lies and bullshit okay. Unprecedented funding for Iron Dome as an example right Ehud Barak said that no other president had done more in terms of security cooperation than Barack Obama. And those of us who actually care about Palestinian civil rights self determination were appalled by the Obama. Administration's endless supportive Israel. No matter what they did including at two different times During the transition in Oh nine and then back in two thousand fourteen loop such ferocious bombardments on Gaza that even in two thousand four hundred fourteen. Thirteen Joe Scarborough questioned as an example when Israel bombed the UN school. So you know again crackdowns on religious liberty and all this. I mean he's talking about pharmacies needing to be able to give women they after pill okay. So he's been using this model melodramatic disingenuous language but at some point we need to inject a little bit of reality. Also the Iran deal supported by same people in Israel like Olmert and the intelligence and members or former members of the intelligence and military apparatus. Go ahead then. This acities to defend itself that people choose who voted for President Obama by and large cared about Judaism far less than they did about other priorities forties. Did you send their badging as a Jew Yes I believe that if you are I believe that if you are somebody who takes Judaism seriously lead. That comes along with ideological ideological commitment. I mean I guess. Also I'm just. I hope you're having fun by the way going through every old tweet that I've ever sent to try and do Gotcha questions. But if you'd like to discussion about things I've done in say I don't know twenty twelve so it's now twenty nine hundred if you'd like to discuss something I've done in the past five years. Why don't we do that because as you bouquets? Criticism of how angry. America's how America has to do better on my website. Ser serve their website. Let's say some of the things you you've said that seem to me to help to stoke that anger. For example you said. Sure Israelis liked to build Arabs. Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage as I say in an article entitled. Here's a list of all the giant bad dumb. Things I've ever said was was that was done. What yes? That's a dumb tweet. And not only but it is also important to mention that the next few tweets clarified that Swedish specifically referring to the Kamaz leadership which which by the way a BBC relatively reticent to condemn. No I wasn't what you on to do and say beautiful the way because because he took some dumb and of course the BBC condemns actions by BBC's quite moderate it just acknowledged international law and in example in Israel Palestine. But I just love that Andrew Neil does not even feel the need to go down with g-o-v shays that dumb little chestnut just like okay. Well well it's back to actually what you were saying. You can see the dishonesty in Shapiro in that tactic. Because he he he talks about. He's characterizes a subsequent tweets as if they are are as if they basically make that tweet not dumb right and and moves on to make an assertion about the BBC that he thinks neal is GonNa follow up instead of that but meal impressively stays on the Stays on the trail that the next few tweets clarify that. That's we specifically referring to the Kamaz leadership. which by the way a BBC I've seen as relatively reds into condemn? No I wasn't what you own to do. Say you are correct about the slur or Arabs is all all Arabs. The want to live in open sewage and blow things up. He's just Palestinians even onto. Say No then you take. Sides in computation is rotten to the core onto say not how the Arab population I say that by poll numbers they elected Hamas Moss. They elected come on. They educate their children's. I thought you weren't saying that. So now we're going to justify saying that with the usual litany here. Yeah it's interesting when what a new poll numbers of talk about the Hamas leadership. Wait wait and I thought you were disaggregated from Hamas from the regular Palestinians but now because they voted for her moss maybe they all are actually really bad ergo. Maybe the tweet isn't a problem. What are we saying? Here Ben The Arab population I say that by poll numbers they elected Hamas they elected come on. They educate their children's in school. That Israel should be obliterated sir if you want to honestly this is a giant waste of time in the sense that the entire interview is designed for you to shout slogans or old things that I've said at me. I don't see how this debate you talk about you. Talk about undermining the public discourse it seems to me that simply going through and finding loan things that sound bad out of context and then hitting them with and then hitting people with them is a way for you to make a quick buck on BBC. Off The fact that I'm popular and no one has ever heard of you know many bucks. BBC unlike American broadcast misses the point. Take your words are highly designed to produce the consensus and understanding that the book seems to want to produce That's my point the. You're right about the Judeo Christian culture and so on but so much of what you said. The Password seem to turn its back on Judeo Christian in culture. You're lecturing Judeo Christian culture after you called the pro life position barbaric Just request all he does is Avi and I asked you a question. You've failed Hanser single one of mine waste of time if you want to read the book critique the book why don't you read and Critique the book if you WanNa Critique me you can think whatever you want to the dam you. I'm never had until I myself. This the that's not the issue you haven't been what we it. It's an interesting book but my point is you book claims toward it from time to time. You're done so several times and I'm about to do so again. If if you would let me just finish. The question turned us later on Judeo Christian values. This isn't it is back. I you know I'm not inclined to continue in an interview with a person badly motivated as you as an interview or so. I think we're done here. I I appreciate your time. All right well thank you for you. Time and for showing that anger is not parts of American. We'll say goodbye. Oh my God and doesn't like it. When in context isn't provided certain tweets? And things like that. Man How it's going to be over. The Pajama boy is over word. And if he's your intellectual leader you should be fucking Paris cool kids philosopher kids philosopher for keeping it others cool kids you know. It's so funny as I not even like. I'm I'm sure it would be unpleasant. Is it but it's so tightly. If if I I get to be interviewed by Andrew Neil of my book and he's like telling me like two two thousand thirteen. You said that Sam Harris you know had less Braids Zoo Landa but equally LS job than Neville Chamberlain. What do you say that I would be like? I would be like you just made that quota. But that's awesome. I wish I said that could be extended interviewed. Grill the for another ten minutes sir. Is this just a highly area. That's a fun thing about being like when we're really nasty on twitter. It's like like fascists. Exactly it's the bad people. It's bad people that's beautiful. Watch all of it and tweet. Follow up questions to Ben Respo- Oh yeah. Gradually Benza. Actually hold on. Let Me Bring Ben. Shapiro's twitter feed because he's been tweeting about this pretty triggered. Yeah so basically. He said he was underprepared for going onto the onto the show. Okay I mean I would say yeah just about in general underprepared in God other point. He said that he walked out of Breitbart out of principle. And I mean I Guess Chore. Oh yeah that would not be my guess assist. I think that my more my interpretation be. Yeah we'll here's what Ben said Af Neil Destroys Ben Shapiro. So that's what it feels like. Winky face broke my own rule and wasn't properly prepared of address every single issue. He raised before C.. Blow no it's not true as as Neil that's why he was talking to you l.. It's Deanna whinge parents and then let's see what else I think you said something else. Yeah I can't find the other. Yeah whatever bench bureaus a bad person. Respectfully follow up with them you call it let's start with a With Meghan McCain. How's IT GONNA play this but apparently Meghan McCain's husband Ben Dominant was very very upset about. We won't get to him for a moment. I just want to say and I think it was his idea to get upset about it but it's unclear we should run that through Google to see if he didn't plagiarize that sentiment. But we will check on that in a moment I just WanNa say it's it's odd because my read is that we'll get to him later that She doesn't love him. That's just it's my it's orioles so it's just odd. You have my view of the world. It's very strange that he would do that. So Kish Meghan McCain on Seth Seth Meyers Program and She's not used to To people Well I guess she is on her show you know. She speaks to a wide variety of people But here Here she is on Seth Meyers and Seth Meyers is asking you about her comments about Alon Omar Meghan McCain gain still apparently cannot read because keeps getting these tweets wrong of Alano Mars. I don't know why that is. Maybe there's so upsetting her that she can't even read them straight. He's also not very bright to be fair to her. Well all right. That's fair like admission. She's obviously now stated. She needs to be more careful with their language. Don't you think other the people who need to be a little bit more thoughtful as well or do you stand by those comments of tying her to this her rhetoric to the synagogue shooting. I don't think I tied her to it and particular killer. I think that I'm calling out what I see the Anti Semitic language and when you're talking about even after that after. She apologized for it. But I do want to establish the timeline I. I don't think the Democrats are hedging on this and I think it's very dangerous and I think Chuck Schumer and I are in alignment about Israel's stance and geopolitical politics. Whoa what's Super Weird about? This is that he doesn't bring it up in terms of politics right. But she makes it immediately partisan and then she says but I damn aligned with the Democrat like use me as your token Jew. Even I thought that was taste. The Democrats are hedging but I'm aligned with the League the head of the Democrats about politics. Burt Chuck Schumer Agreements. I don't I think the Democrats are are hedging on this and I think it's very dangerous and I think Chuck Schumer and iron alignment about Israel's stance and geopolitical politics. I think it's the importance and I think she is bringing her a party to the extreme extremism on this and I think we have to look to Europe and what's happening over there and there in in the British Politics Anti Semitism is very common and I see see it happening over there and I worry about it happening here. I stand by every single thing I said and if that makes me unpopular in this room in front of you so be it well. Let's take the position trying to popular here. I am trying to find the common ground this because I do think one of the I think we both agreed third by her language about nine eleven I thought it was taken out of context and I think if you WANNA give president trump the same same leverage of it said the same thing uh of well I would say that Donald Trump is certainly in no position to criticise language on nine eleven based on the things that he's said about nine eleven right but would you give. I just think you have to give people the same credence and I think now. Let's just examine this theory. You need to give people the same credence. There's no difference between people or context so in other words just all. The criticism of Donald Trump is just simply out of context. So if I was at Meyrowitz we'll aw I mean does that mean that when Donald Trump says like your dad doesn't think your dad was a war hero like that's the same like you just like if you've ever forgiven forgiven anyone for any comment. It's the same thing I mean. Obviously that's the silliest thing I've ever heard I don't know if you have a different view. Geopolitical Politics Wchs. But would you give. I just think you have to give people the same credence and I think. Well I WANNA make the clarification between Donald Trump and John Omar is one of them has apologized and said they're gonNa try to do better and they're going to be educated people who know about this. That's what she said and I think she was interesting thing that we have to Muslim and for the first time they do have a different perspective active on things and I think when we talk about the idea of like. Let's all try to meet in the mid on things we have to listen to other people's perspective I agree I work on the view with joy. I I listen to other perspectives for people. I'm actually talking to a woman of Italian descent every day on television every single day there's a co host. WHO's Italian? She's actually really annoying. My Dad would hater. He did hater totally unfair. I actually I've talked to you. Know my father cane he was in the military John McCain and he allowed for this country I have to talk to her every day. She says that poor people should be vaccinated with some taxes from my mom's house. So I listen to that and I think if you WanNa get that secreted you have to do that even if we have different. Geopolitical bonds agree. I work on the view with joy I listen to other perspectives zero away for people to talk about a the differences in Israeli policy without getting framed as anti Semitic language. Yeah I just think you can't talk about Jews hypnotize in the world positive for one second. Guess who did not talk about Jews hypnotized the World Alano Mar.. She talked about Israel the nation hypnotize ing people in terms of being above critique. And we're literally seeing what she meant by. I think we see one of the hypnotized people couch but Israel But speaking as a Jew who is a supporter of Israel in a very generic sense having having been to Israel on multiple occasions Israel and Jews are not synonymous and not the same thing and that is is in and of itself Anti Semitic say that they are well. But you don't understand the geopolitical at different geopolitical politics. But if you're going to give Sam credence I think you have to give them. I'm the same leverage friends of Joseph Lieberman's daughters of Friends of Joseph Lieberman arousal Jews. Yeah is there a way for people to talk about a differences differences in Israeli policy without getting famous anti Semitic language. Yeah I just think you can't talk about Jews hypnotize in the world talking about all about the Benjamins you bring the two tweets that she's apologized for and I think that's a little unfair to her especially because we listen to. What are you going to prosper? No I'm just someone who cares about the fact that there's someone one out there who is in a minority who has had death threats against her and I think that we should all use the same language you're asking her to be careful about her language and I would ask everybody else to be careful about. There's okay I'm not sure what would you. What would what would make you happy coming out of my mouth right now? I'm genuinely serious. I'm perfectly happy with. Everything's coming to a little. I mean I think You know opinions are very strong and I think sometimes because I do want you to know that I I don't levels teacher and she still you can't handle it It is that her entitlement levels are like I mean. She is a the walking case for the estate tax. Now the thing I enjoyed. What about that is Seth Meyers was doing it? All with a smile and I think came off as not being too emotionally invested in it. I get the sense that Things were a little bit different at the Meghan McCain home Because when she got home or got off the set there may have been something else expressed that I feel bad for her car driver. And this is How apparently the Meghan McCain household? Her husband Ben Dominic. Now listen before we get cut to this. Don't cut to what he's writing here. I just WANNA say aw. Supposedly this was written by Ben Dominant. We have not checked to see if someone else wrote this and he is just a reprinted it without permission. So we're we're just going to assume that he actually authored this quote. He says a on twitter. I see that Seth Meyers the untalented piece of Shit. who only has his job? Because he regularly gargled. Lorne michaels balls went after my wife tonight with his idiotic antisemitic bullshit. Now apparently I I suspect Seth Meyers Myers might be Jewish. Ben Dominic is saying that he attacked Meghan McCain with anti-semitism. Anti Semitism the Ju- use that special brand of anti-semitism on the non Jew. And I really. It's SORTA hard to match. What does he say after? This is the only tweet. See Him like another one after that that's connected to it as gargling learned. Michael's balls have to do with Delano. I got news for you. I don't get it Lorne michaels. Also Jewish and here's a guy who's going in Gargling Lorne Michaels is ball's still called antisemitic. News for you then. I don't think your wife loves you. Wow well apparently domenech sort of apologized. College is but then doubled down at the same time he wrote in a statement to mediate media that Seth Meyers is trash. I believe the steadfastly and the half for years he only has his job because of sucking up to the right people he is an untalented hack and he apologized for rage tweeting but then he fired one more more final shot and said I don't like him I think he's a hack l.. Wait wait you in the process of trying to like White Knight for for Megan McCain Somehow used like any conversation about somebody not having a job in entertainment industry on Merit is definitely. Ah I will say this okay. The process defending negative McCain. I've been told that Seth Meyers is not Jewish grandfather Turner's stretch but apparently it doesn't as a matter like he answered. Seth Meyers question very well. I think when he was like Oh. We have a conversation about this without throwing around crazy accusations of antisemitism services them no we can't cannot your unlike Meghan McCain you don't have a legitimate reason for being on TV since since Dominic brought brought up how people get their jobs and place in society look at who his father is. Douglas William Dominic who was deputy chief of staff united. It's permanent interior senior adviser to Secretary and George W Bush administration appointee also ease recently in controversy here in on April Twenty thirty two thousand nineteen. The Washington Post reported that Dominic was one of six officials being investigated for ethics violations in the Interior Department's Office Inspector General. Imagine that might be a lot of stress going on Kelly job. Does ben have a plagiarist for different conservative. Outlets end and face the nation recurring guest he gets marcy coercion Of course he's facing it gets on face the nation. Oh Yeah Baby. Jesus Christ what's it take and Meghan the can't even handle like three minutes of uh-huh Nice late night comic like politely asking her to try to not get Illinois. Omar associated. Publicist publicist. All right Oh yeah. I should stop lying about her. My Dad was John McCain.

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How To Get Your Mom to Accept You

How To! With Charles Duhigg

00:00 sec | 9 months ago

How To Get Your Mom to Accept You

"Before I came here is like really scared of like all this stuff. I guess like I've never seen a gay people in flesh in India like I've never met one or people who are like openly gay so coming you're meeting people. I remember like walking down the road. I'm like realizing deer started like flowing down my cheeks and I was like Oh shit. I'm gay this is how to. I'm Charles do each week. We help listeners. Work through a problem and this week. Our listener is struggling with something. We've all experienced some degree how to get your parents to accept you. I'm Hamer. I'm medical researcher at Ohio State. And he didn't fully admit to herself that she was gay until it just a few years ago and mid twenties after she moved from India to the US. Initially it was like I didn't WanNa like be gay so it's like six months struggle of trying to be straight but that never works out and then slowly starting except myself finding finding out people out there finding out stories. One of the big issues for him is that even though being a lesbian is something. She's embrace. It's a very different story with their family. Who still live in India in particular. Hemas struggled with getting her mom. Who's a part of her life to accept this? In fact she can hardly even get her to discuss it five months ago. Hamish called her up. I told her. Hey Mom you know you've been searching for a guy so when I tell you something important like I don't think I'll ever get married to a guy and I'm not attracted to men I said I'm gay. And she's like are you gonNA marry a Gay? Guy I'm with no I'm gay. I mean I'm GonNa marry women and she's like I don't WanNa talk about it like dawn dogs such stupid stuff. He tried to have this conversation a few more times but each time her mom almost immediately shut down like my brother keeps telling me that she's like she was like really upset for like weeks after that. But you know as life goes on. He's like sometimes she tells me whether it's like she's. She is like bad healthy shoes because her daughter is how does that make you feel to know that she feels like your Something that she's ashamed of. Oh it kills me. It makes me feel really sad like it makes me feel like. I get what she wants from me and sometimes that makes me really sad like maybe I should lake not be gay but after a while you realize that something that you can choose. So how do we get our loved? Ones a mom or dad or an older sibling to accept who we are when. It's something that they're uncomfortable with. How do we get our parents to see as adults when our desires might be passions? They can't understand or don't want to acknowledge exist. After the break we'll talk to someone who's gone through something very similar to him and made it through to the other side. Stay with us Every moment you spend in your bathroom should be part of an elevated experience with colour intelligent toilet. There are a range of smart features to help you feel your cleanest most comfortable. You can set preferences to match variety of routines so you can experience the perfect environment for however you're feeling or whatever you're doing no matter your mood. Colour intelligent toilet offers everything you need for the ultimate pampering relaxation in cleanliness. Discover what you've been missing at Kohler dot com slash intelligent toilets. Today's episode is brought to you by squarespace because from websites online stores to marketing tools and analytics. Squarespace is the all in one five four to build a beautiful online presence to run your business squarespace. Has Everything you need to create a beautiful in modern website squares basis powerful ECOMMERCE functionality. Lets you sell almost anything? Online user? Customizable galleys to display images and videos. In unique ways you can also grow. Engage your audience with squarespace email campaigns you can create email content the manager website and include your existing products other special features. Include analytics to help you grow in real time built in search optimization free insecure hosting and twenty four seven award-winning customer supports go to squarespace. Dot Com slash. How To for a free trial? And when you're ready to launch us the offer code how to to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or a domain that squarespace dot com slash. How to hello slate listeners. Do us a favor and help us make a better slate by answering our survey it'll only take a few minutes. You can find it at slate dot com slash survey. We're back with Hamer. Who's struggling to get her mom except that she's gay growing up in India. He missed that she didn't know any openly gay people her family would watch the Ellen show every day but she never realized Ellen Degeneres was a lesbian until she came to the US and Hema thinks this is part of the problem for her mom really hard to put the news that her daughter is a lesbian in the right context. I can understand where she comes from because I used to be in that environment. I used to like her. So I can totally relate like why she's saying that she saying but it's really difficult to navigate Indian families because in India like families make your decisions. They're like they're part of your life much more than like in a US. Aside Euro Western society. Guess and there's no like bats way to have a happy Indian family or happy Indian lesbian family but despite the fact that it was scary hard heyman knew she had to be true to who she was. And then like like one of my co workers and it was like. It's not even a big deal and that was shocking and then slowly realized nobody cares year was it was it. The first person you told was your co worker. Yeah that was present dull. After that. I've tried telling my two of my close friends back in India but did not go. Well so tell me about what happened so I don't my blake school friend and she has never traveled so she said like this is all like American. Stop Getting Americanized. And she's like I don't WanNa talk about this like we find your nice guy so she's still looking for a guy to get married to what about your other friend that go better. Oh No we're not even talking terms smell. Sometimes it's like you question yourself like maybe I'll get married and like stay like straight or like extra but then it's like Luton two days of thinking that it's like you know it's not gonNa be possible or it's like a stupid decision to make but how do you find the balance to like not losing people but also being yourself navigating. These relationships has been particularly tougher him because she's an ocean and a culture away from her closest family and friends and so she doesn't really know how to have these conversations and way they might convince her friends and her mom to listen. Luckily our expert has some experience with us. Hi My name is Sonali. Relax and I am from Festa at Virginia Commonwealth University. Where each photography and film look Amo Sonali was born in India and came to the US in her twenty s and she came out as a lesbian. Shortly afterwards. I was attracted to goes as Dean Asia. I dismissed it as a just a wide fantasy and taught that everybody's straight in our means that's just the way it is supposed to be when you're in the US and you realize you were gay. What was it like telling your family did you. Did you tell your sisters I of your parents. Well how did they react? Eh character of your friends and I was debating coming out To mind my though and hadn't quite come up to my mother died betty sedentary. She died shortly after I came out myself and so I never got the opportunity to amount to my mother. This was a really big deal for Sonali without being able to tell her mother who she really was. Without having that conversation it felt like the relationship with her mom was incomplete and so suddenly decided to make a documentary about parents living in India. Who have a child who's gay or lesbian in part to work through what that conversation with her mom would have been like over these last eleven years? I've often wondered how you might have reacted had I told you. I don't want to hear anything about it. I'm sorry I will accept this. This is not normal. It's not natural. A woman needs a man. That's what happened to on my wedding plans for you. What are you saying that you're never going to get married? Never going to have children. You're going to live with other women for the rest of your life is up what you're telling me. Sonali called her film I am. I was really curious of how didn't act when children come out to them and specifically in the Indian context and I guess I wanted to make a gift for my mother to say that you know even though. She's no longer tonight if I were to come out of What would be resource for her? And when you were filming I am about about kids coming out to to their parents for about being gay or what were the parents. Reactions like Adams had all kinds of reactions. I mean they were veterans. Move Disown de Children. They were parents who said okay. It's fine but please don't talk about it with anybody. They will veterans. Who said. I wish you had told me only a- and I wish you didn't hold onto the secret for this long of area and I could have been a much more to support deal Amo let me ask you like if you had to if you had to to put your mom on that spectrum. Where do you think she falls? I think she thinks that I'm going to grow food. And she also doesn't want to talk about it and she thinks it might be shameful. Iftar related come to know about it. That's like the struggle that I have like. I do understand her but I also WANNA be myself in ready to draw line. Like how much do you sacrifice to keep your parents happy? This is a question that all of us at some point confront right. How do we be ourselves and at the same time? Invite our parents in. Had we live the life that we want if part of that life makes them uncomfortable oftentimes firstly? There's not an easy answer to that. Go WHEN WE COME BACK. Sonali will give him some tips on how she might approach that conversation with her mom while also staying true to herself stick around this episode is brought to you by Ziprecruiter and the reason why ziprecruiter exists is because hiring is challenging. But there's one place you go hiring simple fast and smart and that's Ziprecruiter. 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So it's no wonder why more than twenty drivers trust progressive and why they've recently climbed to the third largest auto insurer in the country get a quote online at Progressive Dot Com in as little as five minutes and see how much you could be saving auto insurance from Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and it's affiliates home and Renter's insurance not available in all states provided by affiliated and third party insurers discounts vary and are not available in all states and situations. We're back with our listener. Hema documentary filmmaker. Sonali Galati in one of the big issues for Hamer has been that her mom us being queer as basically a western thing like like. She's been brainwashed by the United States. Yeah Fried like bring up Ellen but like the minute I brought up Ellen was gay. And she's like this is white people nonsense and that's like I can't talk about it. Then then I try to find people who are like Indian and gay and I like. I can't find a lot of examples to send her and it's worth pointing out that. India isn't the only country that's been slow to recognize various sexual identities. It's only recently. That gay marriage became legal in the United States. India's own law against homosexuality was struck down by that country's Supreme Court less than two years ago after seven Indian citizens forced the country to confront the issue and Sonali thinks that sharing their story. That might be way to reach him as mom And these seven beaten said we are Indian we are professionals and we have successful professionalize and we have other lives of auction just being gay and that might be a good place to start is to say okay. Who are these seven people who for this Supreme Court Baton Pama? What do you think? Would your mother react? You think well to that if you sent her an article profiling these people these seven people who would who fought to to decriminalize homosexuality in India two thousand eighteen. How do you think she would react to those? I think she might react positively but I'm not sure I think like sharing like about seven. People will be helpful because if they're like more successful and they're able to have sex life in India to show her that it's not some affect of being in America. Then it's just being like yourself. I think the more weakened share Arou- at the Indian Queer people out there That will definitely help to dispel this myth. That name is not a western phenomena. You know seeing other Indian Queer successfully people. Would Jimmy headed dispel that myth? So here's the first rule and this can apply to any situation where we're struggling to get our parents to accept our choices. It's easier to explain who we are when we can point to. Examples of people like us who are already successful in research backs this up. There's this natural inclination to see something that's different as upsetting or wrong but just a little bit. Familiarity can offset that. If you want your parents to accept you find an example of someone who they already think successful who who's different the same way you are and that will make it easier for them to hear what you're saying. Do you think hey. If you were talking to your mom what do you what do you? How do you think she defines happiness so one of the main issues? My mom has this. Like I'm never gonNA marry a guy and like in India like the handle. Were the daughter to another guy to look after. And this is not gonna be like that male figure to take care of me like financially like or like protect me from the world. I think that's the thing that she brings up like the two times. Try to talk towards like who's GonNa take care of you. Try telling her it's like I can find someone and it won't be alone and it's like she always thinks that if you if you're not married or like you marry a guy your life is not gonna be fulfilling in chief feels like if. I'M A LESBIAN. I might never have kids Sinali. What's that like for you? I mean you're a single mom in a lesbian. Has that been a challenge? You think in a way that it wouldn't have been for any single mom. Y- I listen it. Yeah Somewhere and there were two young women who worked in this house but I was staying and they will ask me about my son's father and I said there is no father adopted. Me Can puzzled. And I said you know I went to a doctor and And I got pregnant and one of them looked at vase. Skeptically like Oh. Yeah you know Nice Dry Wick. I know you're from a one night. Stand and your coveting this up with something and so it was kind of funny. I was trying to be like no no. No I'm telling you this is Julie Howard. Is You want children. Oh I want to the most difficult part about realizing that was like how am I going to have kids and now I'm like I've seen so many like happy. Families like many become part of the community. You're exposed to a lot of families and they're like happy with kids so let me ask you this. If you could say one thing to your mom to help her understand how she ought to define her sense of what happiness is for you. What would you tell her? I will tell that I've realized like like one of the main things that she taught me as a kid is to question everything that's why. I'm in signs. She would always say like. Don't accept stuff just as it is like always question it and I think that's one of the main things that led to the self-discovery. I think I'd be happier. Liked living life on my own terms rather than just following someone else's ideals in someone else's principles as to how happy a life should be you know him are one who things hang out a lot working said. Is that your sort of coating your in the sense that she ask you a question. Everything and I think that's wonderful Mesa. Stop because it's common ground. And as as inveterate story ray of US IN MY ZIM game out and his mother and his mother was model. Give out it and you said to her at your store me to tell the jokes and speaking the truth now wanting it told me you always taught us to be honest and it was bugging me because I couldn't come out with this and be honest with you. And he made his model Bolas and say that's true. It really is your insomnia supporting values that got lost down to you and they made her grace assigning away in a very different kind of. Here's the second rule. Speak Your parents. Language used your parents language to persuade them. Maybe they're religious or maybe they worship science and reason maybe you disagree completely with how they see the world but when you explain how your life fits into their definition of success when you explain things from their point of view. It's harder for them to turn away. If I was your mom and you were trying to explain to me what your experience has been like in the last four years in the United States. How would you explain that to me? Slow initially when I was when I discovered I was gay like I was really unhappy and it was like so sad and I was like so disgusted with myself. Like I didn't WanNa live found out that it was scared and it was like slowly came to terms with elements. Like I WANNA LIVE. And then it's like I need to find out a way to live happy with WHO I am rather than like trying to act in everybody else's like way and be happy afraid like realize accepted myself. Life was much more easier. It's much more healthier. It's much more like a few lighter. Like Adam I'm not hiding anything every day. I think that made me much more happier in the long term by being myself. We all want our kids to be happy. What do you think your mom would feel or think? Say If you told her that I think she understands that That I'll I'll be unhappy by the bay. She's asking me to be but I think she feels that my life would be much easier if I can bear with being straight. And how would you explain to her that that's not true? Try to extend where like people are much more accepting here and you can have kids and there are ways that people do their like podcast about how to go about it. There's so much help around you and like if she can understand that I think she'll be she'll come around to being like okay with it. I guess the meeting. What is your dating life been lake since you came out if you have you found someone. I really one person I initially. I didn't like date anyone like I started dating more guy. He's like six months. Like who am I getting? I dated like one person and then we broke up and I like you need like. I don't WanNa bring someone else into this mess that I'm already in but now I think that's more reason to like convince my mom that if I go have a good run. I think she'll be much more open to like accepting me that if there's someone if it's not theoretical if there's someone that she can meet and she can yes she can get to know that that'll make it easier for her. She always like finishes the conversation life. I don't want to be alone. This conversation reminds me of a Ben. Drew was in a support group of That I was a bottles. And she said I'm here to find a suitable match for my giant and So any religion. If you know anybody who was Indian and lesbian and fit in this age group please let me know and we all kind of laughed about it because it was kinda funny but it also made a lot of sense because it's it was this balance. We have sort of coming to domes with the daughter sexuality was also aware of saying. I stayed one good Shona Soon. Want to take the my. My job is faulkner Here's the final role. At the end of the day. Our parents mostly want us to be happy and so we should explain who we are in terms of happiness. They understand if mom doesn't want her to be alone than the best explanation is that Hamer hopefully will someday find a woman to share her life with in the best way to explain what happiness means to us is to honestly Shirley lives with her parents both the good and the bad if we want our parents to see us as adults then we have to treat them like adults to him. Let's say that. Let's say that you do all this that you follow all these steps and you find examples of others for your mom to sort of see and learn from and and you try and have these conversations in. Let's say your mom just never wants to engage that she just just as look. I love you and I love you unconditionally. But this is a part of your life that I do not want to know about and it makes me uncomfortable to talk about and I don't want to be part of our relationship. How would you deal with that? I think I would start feeling like Gannett found out that I was given was like. I didn't tell her for like a year or so. I felt like a lot of distance growing between us. I think it'll be really difficult life if she doesn't want to be part of it because it's going to be a huge part of my life no matter what like find someone or like have a Kid. And if she doesn't want to be part of it like what part of my life would she part of so that'd be like a really sad that that's how it ends? What do you think your mom would save? You said that tour I lost. My Dad likes seven or eight years ago. So you've grown much closer and I think be rely on each other even though we don't like openly accept it but I want her to be part of my life and I think she feels the need to and are you planning on seeing her personality time soon. Yeah I'm planning to fly in May two. Oh my gosh so what do you? What do you think you're GonNa do when you When you get on the ground in May I think like one of my main goals is to let go have like a face to face conversation with her and like Taylor that this is like this is who I am and this is not like a phase there is hope and maybe like sure. The movie I am. We're like explain the ground reality that in the US. It's it's perfectly fine. A normal to begin here. Like have a family and be blurred supporter. The other be served rice. I have is I think you might WANNA consider. Perhaps driving to hall and sitting she would be more open to reading matter and just sort of do some ground love before you go and speak to her in Boston in. May I think it might help? I think I should write an email. I don't know why I didn't think about it. Always talk to her every week but yeah I can write an email. So Hey Matt let me ask you You'd come to US asking. How do you get your mother to accept who you are? How do any of us get our parents to accept us when we're not exactly the person that they hoped we would be? Do you feel like this advice has helped you let me see. I was scared writing to podcasts. Like if I put it out. There's no way I'm going back but that was like one of the main reasons like I wanted to like. Put It out like I'm done with like being scared. I might even spark guest my cousins and it's like this who I am and like if it's like helpful to someone else who's like struggling like me or like having like thoughts that I had and made them feel less isolated. I'll be like really happy. I think you're so brave to be doing this into talking about added and it'd be grappling with this in the year so passionate and so dedicated to be your true self. Thank you thank you for sharing their stories with us and be sure to check out. Sinatra's documentary I am which is available on Sonali Film Dot Com. The speech Hema recently sent us a voice memo telling us her mom watching all these film and then called her to talk about it. Nibbled watched the documentary. 'em And I think it's affected her and changed her in a positive way. I hope this she said she's opened to having an elaborate discussion about my sexuality wants a meter of in person in. May So thank you. We hope your time with your mom goes well. You have a problem with your parents or anyone else that need solving send us a note at how to its dot com and we will scour the globe to find the right person who can help how to's executive producer is Derek. John Rachel Allen is our production assistant in Mary. Jacob is our engineer. Our theme music is by Brown. June Thomas is senior managing producer of slight podcast and Gabriel. Roth is slates editorial director for audio special. Thanks to Gabe Rosenberg. Ussia Lucia and Sung Park. I'm Charles De Hague. Thanks for listening.

United States India Hamer Amo Sonali Ziprecruiter Ellen Degeneres squarespace Charles De Hague Ziprecruiter Sonali Ohio State Progressive Dot Com Hemas Hamish researcher Microsoft Virginia Commonwealth Universi Ziprecruiter Gresham
Thick Descriptions with Tressie McMillan Cottom

Why Is This Happening? with Chris Hayes

55:45 min | 1 year ago

Thick Descriptions with Tressie McMillan Cottom

"There is not an efficient way to determine one's human capital. The only thing we can do try to hire some time. Listen, I wish my people would no seriously. I wish more people would. And then tell me that you've got a better system for we don't, you know, there are so many jobs that I would be terrible at on my own staff. Yes. That I would interview very well for as good at now if I came in with my like nice fancy degree, and my my love you my way of talking that is smack communicates a certain essay socioeconomic credential. Yes, maybe you'd hire me to do that job for the job. Hello. And welcome to why is this happening with me your host, Chris. Okay. So indulge me for a minute. But put a minute on the clock. Maybe to Tiffany champion. Just a little rant mini rant about the state of the discourse capital t h he capital D S discourse. Consign the fly. Here's here's the thing about the world, we live in and the information we consume there is at this moment because of the way technology works the way that my industry in cable news works there is this just like insane competition war for people's attention, and between Twitter, which is particularly bad in this way, and the way the internet functions and the way social media functions. All content all information is in these little packages that are small and are designed to grab your attention. And then have you share them move them along and they're all constrained in these tiny little worlds like a tweet. I have found that my ability to think deeply about things or with context or it with complexity or nuance is constantly being assaulted, by the fact of the way that information moves through our conversation nationally, it that's really really true Twitter where it's literally about a length. Limit words like you. Can only have an idea that can be articulated in these two hundred eighty characters. That's it. That's as big as you can have. And if you really want to be told story, you can threat a whole bunch together and go super deep, maybe you go twelve tweets deep, and then man, you're just that's like that's like your dissertation, and all of that, I understand the technological moment we're in and the market incentives that have produced that way, the discourse works, but what is lost is space for depth and complexity, and particularly when we're talking about complicated things, and we're talking about complicated political topics. We're talking about complicated questions of identity or the live reality of people that might be different than us. What you need is what a something that that that sociologists called thick description thick description is the opposite of the flatness of a tweet. A tweet a headline that tries to get you to click the front page of a magazine the thing that is trying to grab your attention. That's flat. It's flat. It's it's two dimensional is trying to grab you thick description, which is a term co sociologist us is to really inhabit the life world of a culture of a group of people of an institution and to mine all the complexity all of the internal contradictions all of the manifestations of that life world. That's what really good sociologist. Do. It's what really good ethnographers do anthropologists. And it's a really necessary skill in this moment precisely because the flatness of the discourse. And because the thing that we're constantly talking about this show talks about that. Our politics are all around are people from different backgrounds. Trying to communicate to each other about what their identity is where they're coming from. And so what we have is this crazy mismatch of a politics that demands. That were interacting and listening to folks that are coming from different backgrounds and a medium of communicating that is as flat as humanly possible. And so very excited to have a discussion with associate whose name is Tracy McMillan Cottam. She is a teacher at Virginia Commonwealth university. And she has just written this phenomenal book of essays, which is called thick thick both as a description of female body thick as a description of the kinds of sociology. She does which is thick description, and it's a book of essays that really makes you work to think through the complexity of the life world that she's experienced as a black woman who is in academia, who is taking her perspective and applying it to her research for ram, she wrote this incredible book before this book of essays about basically private colleges called lower Ed, but she's got a way of doing this thing that we used to call troubling concept when I was back in college which. Sounds like a sort of annoying and academic term. But is just the process of taking a concept or a contention or premise or a truth that you think, you know, shaking it and poking and prodding and turning it upside down, it is a really difficult thing to guide a person through the thinking of that to guide a person using your words through thinking about society or institutions or human life in that way. An in this book of essays trusty does that extremely well. She's gotten incredible I story she sitting at the intersection of a whole bunch of interesting forces in American life this moment, but more than anything. She has a way of getting to the deepest part of a topic and most urgently she got away a combining of the way of thinking about siding politics. She gets from her trainings a sociologist with the urgency of talking in the language. With which we all communicate every day. I learned a lot from her book. I learned a lot from this conversation. I think you will too. Your mom had you up here in Harlem, right? Yes. She was part of that wave families from North Carolina. We are actually fortunate in a way that many black people aren't I mean, we've been in North Carolina for as many generations, as you know, we can count. But we did the whole great migration to Harlem as most people did in North Carolina that was the typical path and we took it. She had gone to college in North Carolina married and had me in Harlem lasted a couple of years story is there was apparently was Sam serial killer. Right. Son of Sam wanted to seventy s she decides that we we can't live here. We moved that this right? That's what story. That's a pretty good. That's pretty good, Spike Lee film, right? There's Spike Lee films when he was trying to go legit for the academy that didn't work that. Well, that's an interesting movie sort of embodies like kind of New York rock bottom situation. So that was she was jam Cam. And so and then you went back with her and you raise North Carolina's. Right. So for me, North Carolina is you know, we were all from north county even Harlem felt like North Carolina to us. I mean, we were there with a million other blind people from North Carolina, but I grew up. Yes. All around the Sabin, mostly in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I still I consider homes where most of my family now is how did you become an academic? How'd you the heck knows it wasn't even part of the lexicon for me? It wasn't that we weren't educate. Parents went to college. But like, we should know like among certain strata of folks in which a college education is taken for granted. There is a tremendous overestimation of the percentage of Americans, right? Get a college education you go one. Back. That's right. And it's even smaller. It's the same thing. Like how many people took a flight this past year? Correct. Like half of America. For those of us who fly all the time. Rain seems pretty strange. Exactly. Yeah. Your mom went to college. My mother and my father both we are products of historically black colleges, which is probably part of the story of why we didn't think of academe Lia as a career path. We're like immigrants in the sense that we had four jobs. You could do you can be a teacher, a lawyer a doctor a preacher. We think this is a job, by the way. So and you know, I'm a little girl who can talk and right in that always been my things I was supposed to be a lawyer. I didn't even know about other jobs where you kind of plucked early is like this is a good student. This is this this. I was that annoying. Yes. That was absolutely hand-raised kind of situation body ever offered me drugs in school. I watched all those program, and I kept waiting and waiting. Nobody offered. It was clear apparently that I had inclination to be dark. That was me. I did with the teachers wanted me to do. I was happy to got passes to go to the library. Right. And then you went to an HP, you almost really didn't even know any other choice. Right. Like, I was recruited by the places. But that's what we done. So I went to North Carolina central in Durham, North Carolina. I have a pretty normal sort of experience there, a black college life is this insular, wonderful and solar bubble that. I think really figures pretty promptly, actually, my intellectual development. I have to say I strickly by colleges and universities are not a world that I grew up knowing. Uh-huh. Even though I was in the Bronx in the nineteen eighties. And I was in extremely racially diverse heterogeneous world, I knew nothing about it. Then I went to this very elite public, magnets, New York. And it's amazing to me in my adult life in the careers of people that I follow that. I'm fans of that. I like essential is how central I mean, even listen to Kamala Harris talk about it. There's something sort of striking to me about just how profoundly important those institutions are they still I mean for everything that, you know, one of my bailiwick says that I am constantly promoting the value of historic by colleges and universities, but just to our community still despite you know, years of being chronically underfunded and politically marginalized etcetera etcetera etcetera, they still overwhelmingly produce our black middle class upper middle class, professional classes, black doctors black lawyers, black educators, still very much a point of access remains historically black college, and you had a really good time there. Yes. Probably had too much fun. I stayed there long within my scholarship. Allow. Say it was a checkered path to completion. But I had a great time. And then once you want to be a sociologist, I didn't even really know what sociology is when you know, a black school. We have sociology but is not a discipline. And one of the things I've come to realize is that's because everything in B C you associate right? We're learning black literature in our biology classes because our professors overwhelmingly came from black colleges too, and they tend to be their very mission oriented, right? And so every class you took had an element of what sociology does which is the study of structures and systems if only because we were trying to understand racism, right, and almost all of your courses. Right. So that's so pervasive. You can't write the frame of analysis always has to be that at some level. That's right. So for me sociology was just like this thing we had checked out like there was no robust sort of sociology department. You kinda didn't need it. It would be like having an African American literature class at H B C, you write like, every English course, was African American literature. So it was not until I started to do. I'd gone off and worked after a new grant like I was not I was going to go to law school. But I wanted to work a few years. I life got in the way, I got married all this other stuff when I decided to go back to school. I was still thinking about law school. So so I'll take a couple of courses and went back to my modern take a couple of courses to prepare for the L set. While I was there. There was this program and said, well, listen, we'll pay for these courses for you. And we will give you a check and housing. Here's the thing. You just gotta consider getting a PHD instead of a lot of green. Well, you know, economic incentives being what they are. Then worked on me who set that up Duke University, set mostly by the African American faculty on that campus and consortium with our university and with the university of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and it was to you know, you try to get more African American students and HD programs. And so that was the way they did it. They said, look if you're an and they were recruiting from the base of Elvis tractors. That's that's pretty smart because they again, they know like everybody else in our community would know that we're probably. They're waiting to go to law school because that's what we know. You got a business agree alarm degree or a medical degree? Right. And so they simply sure, you know. But you gotta promise you're gonna take the GRE instead and think about a PHD, and I get there, and I go I ended up being almost immediately good at research, you work with a senior researcher at Duke and I worked with one of the best. I work with sandy charity. Still now at Duke University as an economist and I worked at truly just one of the best social thinkers alive today. And I ended up being really good at it. And he keeps saying to me your sociologist. And it's like, I don't even really know what that is. No, you think about the world this way. And as it turned out. He was right, right? I did this project and got into all the sociology programs that apply to you. And as it turned out. I was a sociologist you've got a really interesting career because you you write economic you're a book that I think crew out of your displaying where you got this new essay collection, but you've also just been writing public. I mean was that from the beginning that you were doing kind of public writing you talk about sort of experience of having pieces really take off and go viral. I think I I encountered you're writing the great piece you wrote about the kind of psychology of poor people buying. Yeah. This is an incredible. And that was the first time I sort of encounter your byline. And then started searching how did that start? I think a couple of things again, I'm associated right? So I think there's a structure a nation. And so there are a couple of things I'm not always been an internet cultures. Right. I was alive journal early HTML programming kind of juror. I was on black planet. I done all of that. I'm telling you. Black planet accounts for ninety percent of probably the black famous people. You know, and I'm not even kidding. Not a joke now planet, I know Roxane gay people think like we meant is no we knew each other. But then everyone I mean is like yes, it was black planet. That's where I found my voice. That's like black Twitter Twitter Otis existed. What is right? That's how we knew how to work that platform. We gave Twitter meaning because of what we once built at black planet. What was black planet? Black plan is where black people went to get on the internet. So Wade back in the day before you had like Ghulam these interfaces, right? The internet. I just remember it being strange like you knew it was a thing because everybody was writing about it. You all of a sudden getting Email addresses people were giving them to you. And is remembered being a relative that's like sixteen seventeen ish about to go after college and all of us understood the internet was a thing. But nobody knew how to really get on it. And what to do once you were there. And at the time the solution to that where the AOL chat rooms. Right. And so you can have an interest. He was supposed to organize around interest, gardening, etc. Right. Right. The largest almost immediately group that takes off as one called black plan took on life of its own. It starts AOL CHAI is every black person who was on. The internet. We didn't know what else to subdivide into like gardening. Or are you black black is is like the UPN of its time. Right. It was just wasn't that more. Good is what we have. So everybody was on blood plan. I'm gonna family. Animal planet. That's right. Which is like a message board. That's right. And so we start then we learn basic sort of coating, I remember you had to learn this is again before everything sort of plug and play internet interfaces. And so you had to do a lot of sort of on the go programming. This is early introduction to how the internet would work. So that's happening at the same time that I've always been a writer, but what else am I going to do in a group to represent myself in this text based environment? I think that carries over to live journal, which was about shaping a longer form writing community, the group there that was very influential was called black folk in every black person. I knew on live journal was in a group called black folk about quarter of those people now people, you would probably know. And it's and it's fascinating because we're built like a we never mentioned it publicly that it. No, it's true. It's wild that. And it's also so much of internet culture. I am the one thousand th person to note this so much of internet culture starts in black internet subculture. And then kind of move out from there. Whether it's words phrases names things originally f very much in, you know, people shorthanded black Twitter. And so there's this like that history of it actually makes that coherent make sense. So I in a way. Yeah. And you're right. That history is not told. So it's like, oh look at this. You'll just magically. I remember articles from my back in two thousand and the black. People are good at they're so good amino fascinating. In working on this for twenty years. Hit shopping. This is just you. What is it? They always say about the ban. I like them before they were they were hot. We like the internet before it was. So you're so that's how you start. Yeah. That's your kind of public facing your and that's from the beginning this, right? Being that dates my understanding. So it really made no sense to me when I interact -demia for me to not do that for me. That would be like giving up one's hobby. Right. They didn't own my whole life. So I kept writing, but that's a front thing. Yes. It is. Got you. Tell story here about having an older colleague. Yes. Basically come up to you and be like cut it out. That's right. There's a lot of censoring about what the profession in every profession is undergoing there. Right. Like, what's the right way to be a journalist, right? Oh, you're just one of those internet journalists. Right. Everybody was that. I've heard kidding me. Pretty much. Pretty much a whole byline of my life. I like if you went tweeting so much you could do it. And I'm like read Sam. I mean, this is what we see and it took forever to come to politics. That's really all anybody is now dealing with with the new freshman class. Right. Is this resistance Jackson? God there on Instagram. Right. That's exactly like AO. See is getting the message from her elder colleagues that you got at that conference. Tell the story of a woman coming up. I'm stone deeply basically that was my Claire mccaskill right seriously comes up to me out the balloons like, but was saying thing that that was clearly being said about me behind. Exactly. Part of that being frankly, they if you were not born in that culture, they really could not imagine that I was doing both of those things simultaneously that. I was doing the deep academic work at the same time that I was doing the other stuff because this is there's a real there's real status coding in academic environs about what is Republican function. We're not. And what if you're talking too much the public? It almost lowers your stock and status because then you're not it is Rex elaborately culture. We have celebrities, but it works inversely, proportional to way, celebrity works writ large, which is we actually want you to be a micro celebrity strangely. Well, known with a small group of people as opposed to popular Lee, well known among the popular masses. But yeah, I wanna talk about one of the sort of themes in this essay collection, which I think sort of tracks through your work both sort of public and academic, which you've got this incredible Esa here about competence, which is an essay about well. I is an essay that centers on an incredibly. Traumatic experience that you had an how when you were pregnant and got to a hospital. How you were understood as having competence were not having any. Yeah. So the point of entry has had these really weird things that I'll say I'm talking to my editor about the possibility. This essay does it was really supposed to be about how technology it makes us all incompetent in these ways that we can't solve and I said, well, my way of thinking about this problem talking about this thing that of all the things I've ever written about it never written about it had no intention of ever writing about it. But I had this draft that it just always sort of been in my files, and the fact that essay exist in this book is really reflective how much I'd grown to trust my editor and how much more comfortable, I think just was sort of with my voice. This was not a story. I would've wanted to write an academic voice. For example. It was not a story that I have been willing to write without the status to defend myself right now have as opposed to maybe a few years ago. But it is an example of how oddly. I come to topics because I actually didn't think that was the heart of the essay I thought I'm going to tell the story about technological change making us incompetent and the political economy won't allow us the competence to an act agency. But the way I was gonna tell that was the way I had experienced it perhaps most dramatically which was the loss of my daughter in an almost dying myself in childbirth. I'm a healthy young adult woman, married, and educated and employed and I'm pregnant, and this should be the most in the United States of America. Right. This should be the most sort of typical pregnancy known to man, and it was just not in the way that I understood it to be typical by the time. It was over understood. It was actually very typical experience for black women and that experience involved at every step of the medical process, which is really just a stand in for how all of our organizations structure, who is the acceptable typical person that they'll work with right? We have to make assumptions and organization about who this organization is four and then. All of the processes are built out for that. You have to be English speaking because the forms are in English you have to be this tall. Because that's while the equipment is right. You have to be this is for the gowns to fit. But that we don't think nearly as much about race and gender, and how you need to present for the medical system to take you seriously and being taken seriously. I argue is the precondition for getting the actual healthcare to get actual healthcare from a healthcare organization. The healthcare organization has to assume that you're competent subject on your own behalf that when I say, I'm in pain at his actual pain that when I stay I am I am in labor. And I'm having a contraction. I am having a contraction. Right. It has to assume that I can actually speak to those things competently and at every step of the process of my medical experience every medical professional. This is really important. I think for people to take away from that story. I'm not talking about one bad, doctor, right? A one bad nurse. I mean when you're in the hospital for three and a half four days, which I was. Yeah. This constant rotation of people every. Everyone is making this assumption about me, and I think one of the for me personally. Anyway, one of the points of reflection for me once I was able to many years of reflect on the experience was how how is actually kind of angry with myself that I had ever expected better. Right that I really have bought into the idea more than I was comfortable with that. I had somehow earned a little bit more extension of grace from organization, and I had not a new also say on the issue you go to this hospital. You said you chosen it because it is a frequented and use by affluent white women us, right? It's like, we're should I go. Well, that this is the place for the community that has a lot of social capital. That's right. Goes you go in you say, you're having pain at four four and a half months. Right. And you get sent home you come back again ended up miscarrying and at every step. They just don't take you serious enough to do what they should do medically. There's a moment when I'm sitting in the waiting room of my upset tricks office, and I'm literally bleeding all over the. Share? And I can't get them to take me to the back room, right until it becomes a problem for the other people in the waiting room because that's who medical care was for the other people in the medical room, those were the healthy attractive middle and upper class white women, right again, I chosen it with the same logic that we choose schools that we choose neighborhoods that we choose which grocery store in which TJ Maxx, we'll go to the one on the quote, unquote, good side of town through that was that was the rough sort of cultural geography, I knew to us and everyone uses that. That's right. All of us do deeply ashamed. I was when I realized I had done all of those things, right? Knowing what I knew about how such things work, and then had the nerve to sort of be surprised at it had not worked for me. When of course, it was never designed to work for me, one of the takeaways that essays just, you know, it's a very it's extremely profound and moving story. I have to say as someone who does not have access to it subjectively for variety of reasons you talk about Serena Williams to afterwards. Which that story just blew my mind in half. And I know again, I shouldn't be surprised at that. But that's where he'd literally blew my mind link. Serena Williams had to Serena saying yeah, had to get up in a hospital and be like I am the person in the world who is literally most in touch with her own body of any human on planet. And I am telling you as that person that there is something going wrong here to deal with and she had to fight for to muskrat. And I and I think it says one of the one of the interviews and tells like she had to pull on her husband's. You know, Boniface staying in the right? Like, can you imagine your Serena Williams, and you you've got to have your husband and proxy disorder to your legitimacy for saying that you're in pain is one of those ways that we talk about how race works because here's the thing that is as true for black men probably in different ways for black women. But I bet we have a hard time imagining them doing that to LeBron James and arguably Serena LeBron are the greatest athletes in the in the world at this point in time. And I find it very hard to believe that LeBron would have to turn to his wife to get her to mediate the conversation with his medical doctors. Right. The idea that celebrity the greatest escape out of all social norms, and our culture every that's right. You can get right as supersedes every social norm. We have that. If black women and cheating that level of celebrity cannot get a system of healthcare to work for them. There's absolutely no hope for the rest of us. How do you think about the category? Black women. Like, here's the reason. I asked that I feel like there were having this moment, you have a very funny ethical black people are over here. And you mentioned this about the trust black woman. Which I think is like both good advice, but always rubs me a little the wrong way. Because it feels like it's this overcorrected reductive category that ends up being invoked. I understand right. Asking you to turn off your critical thinking faculties that. But also, there's a trope there's atropine you write about this trope. There's a certain kind of like wise black woman that is a trope in Hollywood atropine. It's everything exactly. Yeah. Listening to tell the white people who are like fumbling around and not finding their true loves like how to get it together. I love my people. Here's the thing about the internet. So first of all, you know, the great job that you know, nobody knows your dog on the internet for all. I know some of the people who are masquerading as black women on in not even black. But let's just say it was sort of just I was on black planet for like seven years. I figured out. I probably know which one was you. Cookie monster seventy four me. So that's the first thing. But there is there's an economics to the digital culture. Which is you have to get people to give you money, right? And one of the ways you do that actually the primary way is through attention. You know, this attention Konami. We have the trick for everyone is converting the attention into actual money. Right. So we come up with these slogans that I think is supposed to drive people to people's cash up. Right. And and I listen, I, okay, we're we're all vortex. Like, you're one hundred percent, correct. That is a Pam game is the pem game. And just let's just learn the rules just to be honest about it. Right. That to me is a whole other thing that has absolutely nothing to do with black women, except that some of the things that we talk about are very useful as a discursive tools to get people to do that the real substance of conversation. I think about, you know, trust black women believed black women, my understanding of that is not to say to trust everything black women say as being an unchargeable fat. But to trust them as thorns on their ability to say it now, that's quite different. That is about the fact that in all of my work to date, and I'm just going to go ahead and say it, I think I am one of the most cited most discussed sociologists public sociologist working in my profession today, and I can count on one hand the number of my colleagues who have taken my work critically seriously. Right. Yeah. They take me seriously. They don't mind critiquing me the person, but to trust black women would be to assume that you could take off the table that I needed to justify my ability to do my work and instead to take my work seriously. That's what we mean about trusting black women. And that's where you know. It's interesting you bring that point because you read about this a little bit about the ways in which being a black woman writing there's a push to write about being a black way. Because like that's the consumable contact about your life as opposed to like, here's my very rigorous work. I say, Laura education. No. And again, that's because there's a lot of attention available to people. Who want to participate that? And there are lots of people willing to do. That's the way the internet works part of it is you know, there's a there's an old Simpson's episode. Where like Homer Simpson's? Watching a stand up routine, and it's a black Santa continent. White guys drive like this. And this was true. And there there's a little bit of the racial discourse. Even in the woke left, racial discourse. Online gets very white people dance like this black people. I like this sometimes in a way, I just feel like so ethic reductive, and that's just the media. I think you're right. Like when I'm what's troubling me is the attentional impulses of the medium as opposed to what's under it. But I do that like the complexity with which say that you write about it here. People are not getting that. Well, yeah, I mean. Takeaway version and not the discourse. Which listen, my friends are get on me all the time about asking too much of people. Stuff in here. The essay about in the name of beauty is a challenging essay. It's a great SSI take that as a compliment twice. And it's like, I I was like man I'm worth this. I haven't worked hard and while because it's really it's dense and it's thick and thick. I thought if we do this, right? We've done enough thin, right? We've got thin slices of media thin slices of politics thin slices of philosophy thin slices. I feel like the idea of intellectualism head accelerated towards he's sort of very thin margins. You really only operate push at the margins of thinking so much before I think you lose all of the explanatory power of everything that you're saying the point for me was to say, yeah. But we've got this really rich tradition of actually being really complex nuanced about how the world works. That's deeply embedded and black feminists philosophy that I think is really useful for very thin time the collection of of slogans that supplant politics the collection of sort of soundbites that I think supplant public discourse. Right. So we've got this going and just all the Rina's of public life and political life. Listen, this is a minor shot across the bow. Those used to say we can push back. And I think that if I can get people. To take seriously a dense essay on something that is not about themselves because people do dense when they are the subject. People love actually to go fake de when this all about themselves. That's a good point. Yeah, we love that give me more of that stuff. But yeah, if I can get people to do that right to remember one that we're capable of doing it. We have the capacity to do it. That is not nearly as terrifying. As I think, the sloganeering of our has made us believe that it is that is absolutely possible to not have the right answer it or something and still do something. Pretty good with it. Yeah. That's a great way of saying. I like what's great about this collection in what I think what it's pushing out just like pushing complexity pushing on difficulty like all these things that we that. I learned in school at at a college troubling concepts that that is part of the academic tradition. That you're that you come out of a lot of that discourse has been channel to the public. Yes. But it's been channel. No, very flat weigh and that's partly out of necessity. But the way that we're getting these very thick concepts and complicated difficult ones that come out of a sort of discourse. Of critiquing hierarchies that exist in social life. Get shaved down into these signs, and they seem paying around. I'm like, no, I mean, they made poor Kimberly Crenshaw come out and tell people to stop saying intersection -ality. A woman was minding her business. That's what we do Kimberly control. Who is the black woman law professor academic who sort of I think coins time. Yeah. But the the ideas but head coach and the term of sexuality, and she and she. Yeah. She writes this piece of the I think it was about a year ago. And she was like, okay, y'all got to chill Riley. Awards and him out. But she was kind of just like, y'all chill. I appreciate it. I appreciate the name drops in the citation. But I don't recognize what you guys are talking about that. All that's a perfect simple moment on. I'm talking. Of specifies it. You your academic work. I think your first book is fantastic. I read it really changed the way I think about or or enlighten me in how thinking about education, it's called lower Ed, and I think there's a real relationship between where you're coming from. And the kind of work you're doing tell me about what your work is about. And how you decided that was going to be your your work is this article about two thousand and ADA article comes out in his list all of the schools, which is a list annual list. They've done for decades the schools that produce the most African American students with bachelor's degrees that year, right? And it's a holdover from the nineteen sixties seventies jet era, where you know, you published all the black notable facts. I'm the week. And so it's awesome. That's right. This is awesome list is just such a throwback and this list this year listed, the number one producer blind people with a bachelors degree was not the HPC's. We talked about that have produced all these notable black people that we were talking about. But it was the university of Phoenix which was a for profit college. And I knew immediately what the university of Phoenix was. But at the time this happened, I'm sitting in Duke University in a coffee shop with my mentor, and we're talking about a research project and the list is sitting there any time. It goes university of Phoenix. Where is that? Is that in like Tempe, right, haze, the story next? Now, he's like, I know I know what it is. Now, like, I know, but the the moment, and I thought here was the moment. Right. I'm sitting in Duke University. If a professor of economic inequality and stratification and endure universities been studying racial, inequality his entire life hadn't, you know. Didn't have purchase on this thing that was producing more black people with bachelors degrees in any other stormy black college that year something had happened. And it happened. Fast. And why did I know what it was? And he didn't. Well, this is the question of class. Right. I had not been born of the world has sends one to do go Harvard or Yale Princeton at cetera. I had been born of one that while we had gone to college. We were also still very proximate to working class if we weren't and certainly people in our family were and so I knew what for profit colleges where because I knew people who had attended them. I knew that they were structurally different. Even if I didn't understand how or why? And so when I tell them what it is. He goes, you know, what this is. He was like with this should be your work. And I'm thinking surely someone is done this, right? This phenomenon has taken into three billion dollars a year federal student aid money in rolling two and a half million students this in the news all the time, surely someone way more important than me had figured out. What was going on? And I go and do the thing we're trained to do which is you go all the literature about your subject, and there isn't any. And I thought well, I'm clearly doing it wrong. So I try again and again again for about a year on. Seriously. I couldn't fathom that someone had not taken seriously the millions of students in these institutions seriously enough to find out what the hell was going on. And why so many of them were black and why so many of them were women while of course, the question was it Santer nobody had bothered because so many of them were black and so many of them were women right by and large. We study ourselves. Right. Some aspect of ourselves. The great truism of academia, we all studying ourselves, and because people like that had not made it into a research community. No one had bothered to ask not really seriously and not in any sustained way, and certainly not in the social sciences, economists or sociologists, and so as is often the case when it comes to my work, I was a little pissed off. And how we're gonna resolve that. Well, you resolve that, but trying to get at the heart of why you think no one's asking the question. And this really where the book starts because there wasn't anyone like me capable and able and trained to do that kind of work. The world that you end up writing about is massive. Yes. And fascinating and infuriating all three of those things. What what did you find? So a sound. You know, the short answer is this theme that we could probably say, maybe the theme of the twenty th century, but we had not thought about higher education. It just been thought of as the sort of untouchable engine for upward mobility inequality. The truism had become so powerful the myth had become so powerful that even people who were sort of critique in the edges of higher education warrant critiquing its core. Right. Whether or not that was still true. Most of that myth had been built on the mid twentieth century colleges and universities. But this was this new thing. These were these colleges owned by large by shareholder companies or private families private corporations that were not part of the higher education universe. And the story is this is that as the world of work had changed, and we help people responsible for their own individual economic security when the government and social policy isn't willing to make you secure. Employers are no longer willing to make you secure because that's globalization. When you're on your own the only thing we had given workers to make themselves more economically viable was we told them to go to school train yourself. Get more skills. That's all call me to succeed on the twentieth. Jobs of the future. Remember all of those? Nobody knew what the jobs were. We just knew they were of the future, and we can ready. That's correct. But you. And you don't you can't do that. So we told millions of people to take on the individual opportunity costs set out the labor market et cetera. Do what you gotta do and the individual economic costs pay the tuition to go. Well, and we will subsidize it, and we subsidize the heck out of it. That's an important part of the story. This only becomes profitable and interesting to the private sector because of the public investment, right? The public investment in securing much like the mortgage crisis. These are secured by the federal government. So the for profit colleges themselves are mainly off the hook ITT doesn't care that it went out of business and made ten fifteen trillion dollars by that time. Everybody was happy to walk away when the schools close the only people who couldn't walk away were the students, and these are students who are disproportionately already impacted by all those other things that were happening in the economy. They were more likely to be working in jobs that were undergoing structural change meaning shift from Sally work to hourly work, they were the people more likely to be sorta stuck in job. Where the job mobility or the ability for it to be promoted within the same company had flattened over time. They were more likely to be women who were bearing the cost of childcare. This is a huge part of the story. Seventy percent of the students enrolled in for profit colleges where women right now is about sixty six percent. But it's almost always about three quarters. So when we're talking about this problem. This was a gendered problem. This was about women who couldn't afford childcare. So they couldn't go to the evening classes down the street at the community college because we don't provide subsidized daycare in this country. What they did was they got the loans, and they paid for it has to be a full stop time. Because that was the way the only way you can't change any other part of your life. You can't stop being a mom. You can't stop going to work. You can't stop paying the rent. Can't stop taking care of your husband. But we have told you that the only way for you to be better at any of those things is to go to college. You know, there's this debate an interesting debate about when you talk about mobility in the higher earning potential say college graduates people with four year college. So there's this question to oversimplify so two theories right one is that those people. Have better wages because they acquire human capital in the four year college that better suits them for the jobs of the twenty first century. And then they go to the market and that is the market price for their skills. The other is that it's essentially just playing a credentialing function and not a human capital. And so then incomes this world. Yes. That it that kind of test the thesis. It is. The human element. It was one of the most elegant natural experiments set of experimental conditions that we'd seen in in the higher education space. That's exactly what it was. Yeah. Because because now we're gonna see okay. What happens if you get rid of the credentialing aspect are hit because people don't know what university of fees. It's only mixes. But that's what they're selling. Yep. And then what does happen? That's right. So this is what happens. This is what we now know which is what people had high argue for quite some time. But we now have the most convincing evidence of the labor market pays as much for signaling or the credential as it does for human capital. Right. Right. And that is true up and down the class hierarchy this for lower income as well as upper in common with race and all that attached to it. So that's true. Whether you're working in an elite financial service sector or you're working in the call center, you know, at the Bank, partly that happens because there is not an efficient way to determine one's human capital. The only thing we can do we try to hire somebody. Listen, I wish more people would no seriously. I wish more people would. And then tell me that you've got a better system for we don't, you know, there are so many jobs that I would be terrible at on my own staff that I would interview very well for as might be good at. His job. I would I would be terrible. If Tiffany keeps the show on time every night, she sort of manages this incredibly sophisticated like auction of air, traffic control might I would not be good won't doing that job. Now, if I came in with my like nice fancy degree, and my my love, you my way of talking that is communicates a certain essay socioeconomic credential. Yes, maybe you would hire me to do that job for the job empirically. We would hire the hell out of you. Oh, exactly who we would hire to ask. Oh. Yeah. Now, I'm the same. I tell people the same thing. I am perfectly suited for the work that that's right. And not none of the forty nine other jobs. I had before I got and figuring that out is tough. Right. Right. So because that's because there's something mysterious now chemical about what's happening here in labor markets is that the credential is standing in for some rough approximation that because we don't actually have a very good way of doing part of it. That's right. It's closest proxy is a sustained in for social class. Right. And what happens is that employers on on the side became increasingly sophisticated assessing if your now suddenly getting more people with those credentials, which is what a university of Phoenix like system. Does it just produces more people with the credential? It floods the Mark that is right. All right. How can we become more efficient than at sorting those credentials, and what you do is you rely on those same four or five institutions that have always that? We've always relied on the value accrue to the elite institutions because those were the only ones that we had mutual sort of mass agreement where the ones that were worth the invent the. Critic and everybody else gets swept up in the sort of you know, mushy middle and lower end. And yet would so messed up about it is that the thing that they're selling to these people who are doing the thing that they are told to do is for people that are poor people working class voters who are being told up route your life take out a lot of debt is very difficult thing because the way this society works is you need to do it and put it in yourself, and they're like all in. I'm in. I'm going to take the responsibility. I'm gonna night go like go to school. Even though the last thing in the world that my household could deal with right now, and they come out of it. And it's like, screw you. I didn't go to a better school. Yes. Literally, what our social policy said to people they came on the other side. And we said screen why didn't you go to a better school? This this university. You gave you a online tool you're supposed to plug in your information and figure out the right one. This is literally the types of solutions we come up with by the way, which is why we don't deserve to exist anymore. But so the solution to this mass problem was to build a website where people would go and plug in their information in what tell them the school that will be worth their student loan investment. I mean, really I mean, it is so ridiculous. Right. The assessment it is still assuming that the student could ever figure out the complexities of the labor market. The labor market hasn't figured out the complexities of the labor market. But that's what happens was social policy doesn't feel the void when social policy doesn't fill the void. And you've Ouch arise people. Which is what we did. We subsidize we've out your. Sized them, the private sector will just make it a profit extraction. And that's what and then there's real sort of there's a sort of spectrum of legitimate to entirely predatory outfits. Some of them are just essentially like Glengarry Glen Ross getting site this year. Like, you're out on your ass. Yeah. I I call it a timeshare model, which is actually very much what the enrollment process of for profit colleges. Dislike is that timeshare high pressure reporter? That's right, close close close that day cetera. It runs all of them have that process, but the quality or at least the investment in the credential ranges from that to something to be quite honest. I don't know that there is much of a difference between getting a master's in education from the university of Phoenix. And getting one down the street at your local state flagship your state flagship is not happy about that truth. But we don't have any evidence really aren't quite that different. Right. So this is where the story gets complicated. Because not it wasn't that the classes were real, right? And some of the education was perfectly good. Yes. Part of the problem here is that it turned out that the with the labor market that. This correct. And the problem of what we were asking them to do this. This is the part west say, they have an argument a fair argument is just not made in good faith on their part. Those for private schools will say, listen, we're doing a better job than you know, such such nonprofit college down the street, and I go. Yeah. But you also know it doesn't matter how good a job, you do the fact in the matter is a place like a university of Phoenix is never going to do the transformation of your social capital that you need if you were poor Brown woman with a baby strapped to your back. It could never do that for you. No matter how good your human capital development was because the reality is, and they would not what we're doing. And their argument always is we're attending to an actually investing in human capital of this underserved population. So why are you mad at us? You're just refiling the hierarchy defend themselves. That's right. And then what I mean, the whole thing kind of blew up rights at a certain point. The Obama administration comes in changes the policy for student loans, which is very. Controversial they lobby against it. L fighting yet are still fighting. How is shaking out now? So as much as I think oversight mattered, and it, and it did absolutely actually because the Obama staffer people will call me when I don't say this strongly enough. So I want to go on the record it mattered. Okay. It did not ultimately matter nearly as much as eco changes in the labor market. So what really happens is you always have this the cycle when the labor market is bad people go back to school because you got to do something to sit it out and a lot of that just about you have to demonstrate the people that you were doing something during your downtime. That's right. It really is just a moral credential out of the stigma of being unemployed. That's what people are are paying for law schools. All these enrollment went through the right? So some of that was always a bubble. Right. So the bubble burst. But the for profit college sector overstate the bubble burst. And now they're all out of business. The bubble bursts sort of flat line back to where it has a store economy been its share of the overall pies. Roughly now about what it was in ninety three before. Right. So we lost some of the big chains. ITT the Carinthian college ones, which were the ones with the worst sort of commercial advertising. Right. Yeah. They I miss those commercials. 'cause they always made my case so beautiful would do these presentations. I mean, those were just some of the most obvious agree just actors and have left behind the ones that were a little bit more financially stable didn't overreach quite as much in aggressive marketing and taking on a student loan debt and default, but what those schools also have in common. Is that they never doubled down quite so much on serving women and poor people people of color, though, students at a place like a stray or something more likely to be male. Right interesting. And so what it means is that it was about that larger issue of social inequality that you honestly, just can't build a good faith institution built on this foundation of inequality. The okay. So then what are we left with there for a policy standpoint? Is there a way to produce in? I mean HPC us, I guess example, right? There are institutions that manage to combine both right in that the do function as engines of social mobility, because they lend whatever they're doing the human capital side and education tied the they're taking folks from backgrounds that wouldn't necessarily catapulted them towards a credential. I are doing that six. Correct. I think our lesson here. And it's a lesson that we knew was just that. It's not a convenient policy lesson, right? Policy policymakers know, this it is just more expensive to do that work than we want it to be period. That's all it's not that. We don't know. How to do? This is the this is our takeaway from like what like eighty years now sociology of education in some people in my sub-field like to joke like they're no new answer. We've known sort of the answer for very long time. Which is it can surely be done it takes longer, and it takes more money than we are generally willing to spend to do it. What needs to happen is human capital development and social capital development is the social capital part? That's the tough part because that usually means a host of wraparound services because social capital is what we give them our families our communities, the cultural norms and signals that we learn and basically a lot of what some place like a stork Lee black college was about was about giving you that right giving you this new shared base alumni. No that is right. So there are now people that you can go for that. You did not have those connections. You do have. That is right. Yeah. And that more than almost anything is what people who come from backgrounds that are not already born going to Ivy league institution need the most. And that's the thing that we are. That's the hardest sell to make to policy people because it's hard to count. Right. It's not an economic question. But is the thing that we know works. What are you working on? Now. Sleep. Yeah. I keep thinking about as you can probably tell like, I'm really obsessed with finding right now right now, I don't know what the answer is because I'm still working on the good question. But the question I'm leading to right now is absolutely something about technology. I want to ask a question of that has not quite yet been asked. And I think is somewhere in the the way I approach most of my questions is if I start with the community that has not yet been centered in the analysis usually come up with a really good question. And that's how lower Ed happens. Oh, I'm just gonna talk about the women. And we'll do that. This whole thing opens up, right? The essays are about I'm going to talk about black women. And when I do that this whole world opens up. I think we have centered the conversation about technology, whether that's digital technologies or surveillance policy, cultural change, the economic models have centered a lot on white boys in Silicon Valley and the way I'm pitching it right now is I'm going to tell the story about technology that doesn't talk about them at all. And let's see what happens. But yeah, I'm still working on that good. I thought I'm I'm the thing. You said I thought really efficiently about attention and how that. Works is something. I'm yeah. Personally obsessed with because I'm living in all the time. And it's it's the thing. I worry. Most about trustee McMillan cotton is a sociology professor of Virginia Commonwealth university. Her newest collection of essays is called thick. It's really excellent. It's a great read challenging in all the best ways. Her first book is called lower. Ed. It was great great to have you here. Thanks for finally making this after only been hounding you would. Let that part sliding seriously. Thank you. Thanks. Once again, my thanks to Dr Cressey McMillan Cottam two books that she discusses in that conversation. The first is lower Ed, which is about her research, which is really mind blowing and his is really the only kind of study of it's kind of this entire world of of higher education, the US and the second is her latest essay collection, which thick which really challenged me. Like, they were some tough reads. I get out the pan and underline and work at it. And it was extremely rewarding a work. So I really recommend you go out and you cop that all right? We love to hear from you. You can tweet us hashtag with pot Email with podgy mill dot com. We got great feedback on our little experiment on the New York City subway, which I worried was going to be two provincial did have someone on Twitter being like what about the rest of us know of New York City. I was like that's a fair point. But a lot of people who don't live in New York City people who don't take the subway who never set foot in the subway really liked it. There was someone who tweeted at me. And I can't remember their handle. There's a there's a moment in the conversation where I say, I try to set up why if you're driving to work in Iowa City, Iowa you should care about this. And someone tweeted saying like I listened this episode from Iowa City so mission accomplished, I think it was great to have Aaron Gordon on the show. He wrote a follow up piece to go along with that conversation. You can find it at NBC, news dot com slash wise, as happening another important thing. Tickets to the law. Live with pod February twenty four th with the one and only Stacey Abrams, the tickets have gone very fast faster than I think any. Well, Tiffany champion who's got us sort of just inner chilliness and confidence about her. She was not stressing that we were going to sell the tickets. I was maybe stressing them a little bit. I was yes. Yes. I was stressing a little bit. Well, I didn't know how whatever we sold them. And we sold them very fast too fast in some ways because I think people felt like they got there right at the time. We said they would be available and weren't able to buy them. We're learning our lesson. Like, I said, we're scaling this up next time. We're doing a ten thousand seat venue. We're just getting. Oscillate wildly from like from two small to way too big. No. So here's the thing at Tiffany. And my direction we have set aside a few few tickets to give away to with pod devoted with pod listeners who were not able to get tickets, but would like to come see the show we're trying to figure out the mechanism that we're gonna do to give that to do that like some little contest or something. Like, can you do a podcast Colin show like them like the old mister show skit, I don't know how we will do it. But we will come up with some means of giving away. These this small group of tickets we have to devoted listeners, and we will we will announce that in next week's episode. So stay tuned for that. And like I said this is the first amendment if you're not in New York, if you love the show, if you wanna come watch me talk to someone live, we will rim do everything we can over the next year to to make that happen as much as we can. So why is this happen? Is presented by MSNBC and NBC news produced by the all in team and features music by Eddie Cooper, like mentioned before you can find a lot of great stuff for the podcast by going NBC. News dot com slash wisest app. Hi, it's Lawrence O'Donnell. If you love MSNBC where your heart on your sleeve, you can gear up with t shirts. Hoodies hats and more from the last word and all of your favourite MSNBC shows you can shop now at MSNBC store dot com.

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Dr. Marvin Singh and On with Von with Von Eaglin #1062

One Life Radio Podcast

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Dr. Marvin Singh and On with Von with Von Eaglin #1062

"The content of the following program is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice diagnosis treatment or cure always consult your physician or a health professional with any questions. You may have regarding a medical condition <music> the baby. Do you wanna go higher baby. Oh you're in the right place. You're listening to one life radio. This is bernadette with diamond gray obvious barrientos von egeland and we have the mendoza again in studio newest addition to one life radio <hes> we're gonna we're gonna let her get over the nervousness of being in a radio studio and then we're going to start talking to her next week. She's really cool chicken a nice addition to the show and i'm very excited to have an have around our team so <hes> it's always great to have you here von egland <hes> and you're licensed since professional counselor supervisor that works to group practices here in the dallas area so <hes> we're going to pick your brain today all about relationships and the fundamentals of a healthy relationship ship we also have dr marvin sing coming on. He is a medical doctor that practices as an integrative gastroenterologist <hes> in san diego california. We're gonna be talking about about gut health for longevity. I have a lot of questions. I want to ask him so you gave me this book right before the show started and i was like oh my gosh. He is a book that von recommended. It's the man's guide i two women. <hes> which i find is super fascinating. I i'm wondering what men think about women and i didn't even know that this book existed <hes> but let's see where was i said and what about the woman's guide to men and he was like well. Men need more help than we do. Yeah yeah well you know <hes> i wanna say stupid ignorant but in some ways yeah i think we are dr because <hes> you know guys. We don't understand how women work how they think. <hes> what's important well. You know we're not taught that you know we're not socialized into a lot of those things but <hes> you know women look for and i think it's one of the first lines in that book is simple. One simple word trust worthiness in a man be trustworthy in we've talked about this <hes>. Let's say that's the number one thing that a woman looks for number one number one and it's very important i guess trust of course is the fundamental the foundation of any kind of relationship right right and we've talked about about this before about how trust comes in many different forms in a relationship like a trust that you're going to be a good financial provider or i trust that you are going to <hes> be a good father or i trust. You're going to have sex with me. Whenever i want to trust trust trust trust and so you have to have a lot of trust and a lot of different areas. I trust that you're going to have sex with me. Whenever ever i want. I want to be able to ways of course for a guy. That's always easy. Guys always wanted. Most men would have sex like multiple times a day right again. I've had a lot of clients coming off. Some of them have a high sex drive. I've seen times where the woman is begging for. Six and a guys like is just not that importance on me. This'll more rare but most guys usually just on average more ago well again. We don't explain chapter six itchy she more than a hookup well. Here's the thing is that women have more prerequisites when it comes to six so guys don't have as many hangups and because a lot of men go around spreading their seat and then walk away from that responsibility just saying bam yeah well right well actually elite jump on that where you get on the mic be fearless my dear i'm going to i'm coming for you got three women. You're fighting with now here. Most were or more women who cheat nowadays than men so what's this about spreading seasons though i mean women are spreading the legs but a lot of women a lot of women out what they're taking advantage of all you know i. I think that they're finally exercising their sexual freedom a degree with it out. So why is it okay for a guy that you know if you've heard this oh dr gonnet. I knocked over my water. Okay so so you know. You've heard this for years. You know everyone out. There knows what i'm going to say say they. Do you know if you're if you're a guy and you're out there. Spreading your seed your stat and if you're a woman you're a whore slot right. That's true. That's true. I hi is that is a common. I mean considerable standard double standard. I'm not the one who sets the rules. I just live bomb is true though guys a lot of thousand thousand. You know i've had guys come off and say you know what yeah i'm going to have sex with a lot of women but if a woman has high numbers in terms of her sexual count than the hell about that just saying the high numbers hypocrite okay all right. Maybe that would make a really good in bed. How pulled out. How could you go into meeting someone new. Who else can you let me. Ask you this if a man meets you and he asks you to. How many people have you slept with. I'd say you're busy and you're done right here. You're going to love i. I'm not it's none of his business. How many men anita tell you would you would. You tell him the truth. If it was a high number i i mean i would tell the truth. I i'm always telling the truth bud right but then it'd be like why do you feel the need to ask now here. Well what about you. What's your by your number dude because he would probably we live with a guy will lie for sure and they'll exaggerate exaggerate. They wanna make themselves look like studs. It depends yeah well. Maybe not if it's probably going to exaggerate and kind of overcompensate threatening. We'll see again. I if i'm i don't brag on myself. I you know it just is is what it is kinda deal so but again you know if a guy has a high number is seen as more acceptable and if a woman has a high numbers like oh your whore or something's is wrong with your you know you're you're very you're very sivvy's lifestyle so so to speak and so now again. I don't make the rules. I just know that that's how society like. I never watched the bachelor okay but okay so i know this season. It was very spicy because the girl that was on it. I know my daughters were watching. It and i was trying to tell them. Please turn that john god. I can't <hes> but but you know anyway but i guess she stood up to the guy because he he was very concerned about her numbers or something because virgin right burji burji bachelor's. That's great for him. No judgment here. You could be a judge <hes> you could be. You know i mean what is the. Why is that such an important thing why i can't person just be that person who they are in the present moment will why do we have to if that was the case gosh we could throw stones at a few people. I'm looking to be totally honest with you. I think it boils down to ego share because we have very fragile and yes you do we have verified eagles bigger the more fragile and so if i've been with a woman and then i know she's sleeping with someone else then that's going to attack. This is going to have a beer. She's sleeping first first of all. Nobody should sleep with multiple at the same time. I do believe that for a variety of crazy talk has about open relationships. We're going to have to go back and revisit that and what about all the swinging. How healthy is that for a relationship. It's like ooh and then they have rings that identify and even like yard yard thing art that they put what to identify. I oh my gosh. I remember back in the eighties. When a friend of mine i wanted myself and my boyfriend at the time to partake something like that. I used to think that that was the craziest stuff i have ever heard in my life and it's detrimental for a relationship react to that when you're approached by someone asking like you look at them like if you're totally weird and you're not satisfied and the relationship you're in russia and how do you i mean what guy wants to watch another man. You know l. do her do his girlfriend or why class like you know glad they're in therapy off on watching their woman receive pleasure you know why probably because they were addicted to porn and the and and because how could that how how could that be. I don't have a lot of different sexual fetish about intimacy see. Where did that go. When did that go out the window. That's when you have the best sex when tinder was invented. There are different types of intimacy. I think you're talking about like like more impersonal a personal sex versus impersonal sex love and intimacy not just spreading your c._e._o. Word i just wanted to ask why is there such different perspectives when a woman has a bunch of different baby daddies verses when a guy has multiple mothers of their children. Oh there's a double standard standing. I'm not denying that there is not a double standard that there's a clear double standard especially because the woman is usually the one primarily taking care of all of those children because we care it's true. It's true agreed. How can we fix it. Von on. We're just picking on your radio. Humor is good. I don't know how to fix it. I do know that <unk> double standards out there and a lot of people. You're gonna have to figure out whether you're going to hear to it or you're gonna say you know screw it. I'm gonna find someone love me for me. No matter what i'm doing in my life or you know whatever whatever choices i've made but again you want someone that today to accept you for who you are and you're authentic state and that you don't feel judge. That's what you want it in the day. No matter what your experiences are or have been you want someone. Who's there for you. <hes> who really gets you who really knows you who understands you really validates your experiences really empathize with you and so those are the components of some of the things that it takes have a healthy relationship but i know we've just kinda talking about sex thing but again those are some of the things that you some ingredients that lead to a healthy satisfying a stable and a successful relationship yeah <hes> i want to ask so many questions. I really do a man's guide to women okay so this is written by two p._h._d.'s salon. Yes john and julie schwartz got man. Oh there are a couple yes so he is the on stein of couples therapy. He's the one that can predict with about ninety. Four percent accuracy rate with a couple stays stays together divorced decades and decades of research about his theory. I'm <hes> certifying a little one two and three in his theory and actually my dissertation is based based on his theory as well so <hes> very familiar with his theory great work john godman but he outlines a lot of things that men don't understand things about how to romance woman about how to <hes> there's pictures of of a woman's you guys need to understand where whereabouts wonderland dan anatomy lesson. I like my body when it's with your body and it's quite a new thing this anytime anytime you make love to woman you're telling the story so like says in a book elaine who you are who i am and who we can be together so a lot of guys when they make love. They have the same routine. You have to vary your routine a little bit because because her body is one just like in the kitchen. You gotta change the rest of me. You got to change the manual summer well. I think men are very simple. I think you guys want me what sex food and sleep and football <hes> right all right. Okay the man's guide to women. Were going to be talking about this in the upcoming weeks. I would suspect after this conversation but we have a fantastic show today. Everyone stay tuned. You are listening to one life radio. One life radio is brought to you by our sponsors. Great companies like sun warrior plant based protein use the code. Oh are for twenty percent off crazy water. The only mineral water bottled in texas this honest temp happy healthy honest c._b._d. Use the code. Oh l. are for twenty percent off nature's played plant based meals to go paleo magazine gene wellbeing journal and the international society of sports nutrition be sure to go to our thorn research dispensary on our website for twenty percent off and free shipping chipping. Thank you for listening to one life radio. We'll come back to one life radio. Everyone this is bernadette with diamond gray. Avi anna von eight lynn in the studio and i have dr marvin arvind singh. He's a medical doctor practices as an integrative gastro and to enter law. I can't say the word now allah just in san diego california. He is a diplomat. The matt of the american board of integrative medicine and a board certified internist dr singh was trained by dr andrew weil pioneer in the field of integrative medicine at the university of arizona center for integrative medicine doctor. Sing is a member of the american academy of anti-aging medicine the american college of lifestyle medicine and the true health initiative. He is a graduate of virginia commonwealth university school of medicine and completed his residency training in internal medicine at the university of michigan health all systems. His website is is mind body green dot com. That's mind body green dot com always a pleasure. Welcome back dr seeing on live radio. How are you doing today great. Thank you so much for having me well. It's always a pleasure. It is and i love it. We're talking about because got health as they say is the the it's at the route all disease right it is for sure <hes> there's so many things that have correlations than <hes> their origins and <hes> gut health dolphin imbalance of the gut microbiome <hes> and so you know i think about when i first started reading about the gut microbiome i don't know six seven years ago and it was a book called missing microbes and yeah <hes> by a martin martin blaser. Yes thank you very much and it was interesting to me <hes> <hes> that and and i can i kinda had heard this before and it goes back to you know things that we've known for many many years like the importance of vaginal birth the importance of breaths breastfeeding things. He's like that and that's how the gut microbiome begins but for people you know that maybe don't know a lot about it. Could you explain to our listeners exactly what the gut microbiome is and what it's responsible before yeah for sure the gut microbiome is basically trillions and trillions of bacteria that live inside of our intestinal tracts they outnumber human cells tend to one and the d._n._a. That they contain outnumbers our human d._n._a. One hundred to one if you think about it we're really not humans we are primarily microorganisms look like different kinds of people scary scary and fascinating tasting and beautiful at the same time actually so what what <hes> what our design is is basically you can think of these microbes as kind kind of a little little pieces of the puzzle that are always moving shifting and changing in order to help us survive so they actually do us. It's a lot of good when they get out of balance and out of whack they can actually cause us to have health problems but if we take care of them just like you water a plant <hes> you know that you have in your house every day and take care of it nicely. It'll grow and take care of us back in return and we often talk about the first thousand days of life life and <hes> it was a lot in the news a few months ago about the first thousand days and what what that means is that the most important time for people's microbiome to develop is actually in the first two and a half years or so of life and that includes even the pre birth time period so it's not important once you're alive and you were born <hes>. It's also important how your parents are living in eating reading and reducing stress and all that stuff so all that prenatal yoga that everybody does actually is good good for the baby and good for them. Whoa you know and i love that. You're saying that because i do feel it's such an important subject and we forget about it. We don't really think about that and i often think about antibiotics and the effect on the gut microbiome michael bio. Let's talk about that because i feel that is so critical yeah so that's what <hes> dr blazers book is actually all about is about the his antibiotics and overuse of antibiotics and i actually wrote in <hes> in a book chapter on integrated environmental medicine the textbook <hes> the chapter that i wrote it was reviewing chemicals mccalls antibiotics and how they affect the microbiome and i often tell the story that one of the most interesting and kind of scary articles i came across was was talking about antibiotics and our food systems. You know it's it's common for antibiotics to be given to animals in their feed. It acts as a growth promoter makes them fat that <hes> and help them. <hes> helps prevent them from getting sick because the farmer doesn't want the animal to get sick otherwise can't use the animal. It's estimated tomato that you know in the united states. Every individual consumes about twenty seven grams of antibiotics every year because of this practice how well they're even. I'm putting it on oranges now. Did you know that really orange and yes and oranges to yes i it. It was news a couple of i don't know about two months ago. I was like oh my my gosh and it's not and that's not you know. Mainstream media is not reporting the type of stuff that we're talking about right now and it's important because you know our lives are in the balance. You know they really are your health. Is your wealth. Everyone knows that and especially after they become second as i said at the beginning that you know all all health health problems are related to the gut they start in the gut right yeah and that's not to say that don't ever take antibiotics because antibiotics can be life. Saving medications can help you you and if you're sick and you need them then take them but if you have a viral infection or cold or or cough that is just very minor has nothing to do with the back till infection. That's making you sick and don't take it just for the sake of taking sometimes people just say oh. We'll take some film. I'll take z pack. It'll help my cold. You know your body will help your cold if it's viral infection. You just need to support your body during that time period yeah well. If you're just now joining us you are listening to dr marvin singh. He's a medical doctor and practices integrative gastroenterologist in san diego california <hes> we're talking about gut health and longevity so how important can lifestyle changes be and what impact can they make on your health and gut microbiome. Lifestyle changes are so important and we often take them for granted. You know there was a study that came out showing that if you practiced four or more lifestyle changes <hes> you have a reduced risk of all cause mortality by sixty six percent that means that if you sleep well you exercise eat well and you meditate you could reduce your risk of dying from any costs by sixty six percent percent and and this is fascinating because we have scientific proof showing us how this happens and how it affects genes how it affects the epigenetics and and our and our genetic expression at the d._n._a. Level and also how these things can influence the composition of the microbiome and how the microbiome is influenced by these things positively and then outside of science and you know experiments and research we have real life evidence of this because you know we've we all know about the blue zones and dan butin work with the blue zones different parts of the world in totally different countries and you look at what are some of the things that they have in common and the things that they have in common that allow these people to live greater than one hundred years old. Are these exact same things. They're not like something crazy crazy and i bet if you went to sardinia and you told one hundred year old that hey i think i found the <hes> the key to living long. They'd probably laugh and say hey. You know we've been we've known this. That's why we're all living so long. You know yeah <hes> you know <hes> so what are what are some signs dr singh of an unhealthy gut. The signs of unhealthy gut can be very <hes> <hes> wide it could be from joint aches to arthritis really problems <hes> a- an unhealthy gut can be related to diabetes and being overweight. <hes> people have brain fog people. Have you know the obvious obviously bowel symptoms or they have changes in their way to their bowels are bloating donald discomfort now. You have to make sure that there's nothing underlying going on like you. Don't have a tumor in your colon or something like that for example but outside of that assuming that there's nothing organically present those are some of the things but it's not always chest stomach upset. I tell people that the gut is the tattletale for the body so even if you're feeling depressed we often find that people have got issues <hes> up some sort related to that whether it's bloating abdominal discomfort or harper <hes> well. I'm thinking of so many different things and my goodness you know what do you think about <hes> <hes>. What do you think about someone who's going. Who would who would be considering like a bariatric surgery because we we saw a study that found that <hes> that posed this question that does bariatric bariatric surgery really reset the system. What are your thoughts on that yeah. I mean there. There is evidence showing that bariatric surgery does <hes> change the microbiome really and that could be one of the reasons why people lose weight so often you know as long as there's not some major health issue or would make them you you know thicker. If they waited to have bariatric surgery i often talk to people about health nutrition style changes and try to coach them to understand and how they can take control of their body so that maybe they can avoid having surgery because surgery is not without risk either. You know well absolutely. I would say that would be like the last thing that you would do you would have. I asked the question. Am i exercising regularly. What am i eating. Am i drinking too much alcohol. <hes> am i too stressed out. Am i not getting enough rest. All the things you talk about. Am i meditating. I just think surgery should be like the last option and in my opinion but you know i'm you know i just i always go for the natural real <hes> cure. I take that to the next level because it's not just to make blanket suggestions over health and lifestyle but every every single person is different. Everybody's microbiome is only ten to twenty percents similar so we can't say oh be a vegan or o._b. Palio because we don't really know for sure and you know what i do is i do a wide variety of high level precision types of tests to help understand what's going on and they got what's going on with this person's genes and their gene expression how old they are chromosomal lee meaning like how <hes> how what impact their lifestyle is having on their health and the aging process now we get an idea of that i do a wide variety of these things food testing and chemical sensitivities and those those kinds of tests and then i put together a whole oh program for them to really kind of understand precisely what they need to do because everybody's different there was a study that came out recently showing that they <hes> follow people's diets for you know several weeks and they check their microbiome every single day during that time period and i it was fascinating because if they could predict what changes might happen in an individual's microbiomes based on what they were going to eat but it was not generalize -able across the whole group of people well meaning that if i had broccoli in you had broccoli i might have five changes in my microbiome with five bacteria and you might have five different changes in your microbiome with five different bacteria and they may not all be good or bad <hes> maybe different yet i have so many questions what about salt in the gut microbiome and then artificial sweeteners and the ketogenic diet all these things and know everyone that i hear talk about artificial sweeteners there like it does nothing. It's harmless like i'm. I don't know yeah i mean. Artificial officials tweet can cause metabolic derangement glucose intolerance and they alter the gut microbiome. There's a fair amount of literature on that. I mean if you're drinking in coca cola and you're just learning about lifestyle management and you want to start losing weight. You know not to say that going to artificial sweeteners. <hes> is is healthy for you but i would say maybe it's at least a step in the right direction to get you start thinking about that kind of stuff but you want eventually kinda get off of all of that that kind of stuff because isn't digestive health accomplished with real food. Just better food real whole foods. You don't need the coca cola. You don't need the sugar you you. Don't need the artificial sweeteners. These are just you know. <hes> these are things that are unnecessary and their food like substances. They're not real food. What about out <hes> what about the diet and got microbiome. Peculiar jennings is also very interesting topic. I talk about it a lot there. There's a a lot of research showing how in the early days in the first six months you know when you're on a strict ketogenic diet that the diversity in the microbiome might actually go down <hes> but after six months in a group of patients with m._s. they studied that the microbiome rebounded and became stronger after that so there may maybe a transient period where the diversity and the microbiome becomes poor but then it increases with time and there's a lot of evidence about how this helps with you know weight loss and people with seizure disorder i look at kita genyk diet as a therapeutic diet not necessarily something that you might wanna do for you know eight years when we think about diet. I don't want people to think that this is just <hes> you know. Diet implies that it's a fixed period of time. You're going to go on a diet for thirty. He days life doesn't work like that. Unless you're planning on dying in thirty days planning on living for a long time to think about how you can eat in a flexible and sustainable way you may need to cycle in and out of different eating styles not diets and that may help you at variety of different points of your life depending on what's going on just like fasting fasting. Mimicking diet can also serve that role as well. You wanna look at how you can eat for sustainability so that you can be flexible flexible because you wanna live your life and have fun. That's just my philosophy. You know you wanna go on vacation. You don't wanna be that guy who sits there and say i can only drink water because they don't have anything kita on the menu. I mean yeah you gotta live for your life. Not for the minute. I love the message and it's always a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much dr singh. Oh always a pleasure can't wait to have you back thank you you're welcome thank you. Yes thank you so much for the great content. Everyone <hes> stay tuned. We've got more coming up with von egeland egeland. You're listening to one life radio. One life radio is brought to you by our sponsors. Great companies like sun warrior. You're plant based protein. Use the code. Oh l. are for twenty percent off crazy water. The only mineral water bottled in texas honest temp happy healthy honest c._b._d. Use the code. L. are for twenty percent off. Nature's played plant based meals to go paleo magazine wellbeing journal and the international society heidi of sports nutrition be sure to go to our thorn research dispensary on our website for twenty percent off and free shipping. Thank you for listening to one life radio. Thou sweet tea welcome back to one life radio. Everyone this is bernadette. I'm in studio here here with adriana santos v mendoza and von england before we get to our content the fundamentals of a healthy relationship and continue talking about the man's guide two women. I can't wait to have a discussion with you again about that von that the opening was so much fun but i want everyone know that you can go to our website. One life radio dot com <hes> to download and listen to our podcast or subscribe to our newsletter and our newest <hes> newsletter. We are going to have the information. It's it's going to be sent out tomorrow. <hes> <hes> that dr elvin dannenberg suggestions that he said on the air <hes> made on the air when i guess about tizzy his protocol and all the things that what he's doing to fight the cancer that he has and he's doing quite well. It's amazing. It really is because he should have. He was given a three-month drag races last september so he's doing well well yeah but but i wanna put some recipes in there for mashed cauliflower if you've never made it it's not that difficult and also sixty second chocolate cake in a mug mugs so you can check it out and also you can go to iheartmedia dot com to listen live off or download the free iheartradio app and listen to us from anywhere in the world and a big shoutout to our sponsors great companies like sun warrior. You can get it at vitamin. Shoppe or put it in your smoothie smoothie. King son warrior isn't a premier all natural raw superfood company dedicated to providing the best vegan protein powders and supplements and they've got a couple of new items out there new products von that you're the one that i i always say you're the one that told me about some warrior <hes> they have a ketogenic drink like a real meal replacement coming out and also they're going to start selling a wonderful c._b._d. The oil so let's go to and you get <hes> you go to send warrior. Dot com won't be out yet for a couple of weeks but <hes> go to sun warrior dot com to learn more about all of their products and use the code. Oh l. are for twenty percent off your first order and of course environmental. They are one of our newest sponsors. We were talking about the importance of the healthy gut microbiome one hundred percent endorse their products environment they are they're just fantastic. They're very high. Quality and environmental truly was founded to combat the negative impacts of the modern world with a mission to further the principles of evolutionary medicine is a new paradigm to healing and their products are new type of probiotic where it's symbiotic which means that they are. They were only in nature and they a utilize only the purest ingredients from around the world. Check them out at environmental dot com and of course crazy water. I'm headed there that this weekend actually to go. Get a couple of five gallon the jugs of crazy water if anybody wants me to bring them. I'm going on a road trip. <hes> not far but you know it'll be fun right out of it. Yeah i'm and <hes> they've got the crazy water festival the beer festival and five k run coming up here in a couple of months so check him out go to crazy water dot com and the well-being journal always love of being <hes> you know in in tune with olive what they are putting out there. The wellbeing journal is heralding the integration of medicine physical mental emotional spiritual and social -ocial aspects of health and here. We are all of us. Were talking today about how to have a healthy relationship. The fundamentals of a healthy relationship okay so von. <hes> you know you're pretty. Well schooled on this topic. You're actually working on your thesis dissertations <hes> and so so <hes> vanni glint is a licensed professional counselor. If you're just now joining us he works to group practices in the dallas area and a certified couple relationship trainer and sees a wide arrange of clients addressing men's issues anger management abuse and addiction just to name a few. He is also a doctoral candidate at the university of north taxes in the counseling. I've been talking to and higher education department his p._h._d. Research focuses on couple relationships dialogue and you can find him at preston in place counseling dot com or follow him on instagram at vaughn talks <hes> and so this is our little thing where you can call in to <hes> burn is on with von talking about the fundamentals a healthy relationship so what are the basics of a healthy relationship on the basics of a healthy relationship so so. Let's just outlined things i the number one thing would be commitment. You gotta have commitment mitten and then you have to have trust we talked about trust in the opening segment about how it's really really important that you can trust your partner and how trust comes in a lot of different forms in in a relationship and you have to trust them variety of areas and i use a couple of examples like i need to trust that you're gonna be a good father. I need to trust that. You're going to be mother. I need to trust that. You're going to be a good financial <hes> steward of your money anita trust that you're going to be <hes> you know you're going to deal with my inlaws appropriately anita trophy. You're gonna manage a career wheel detroit anita trust and a lot of different areas and when you cannot can not trust your partner does something in the back of your mind. That says you know what i can't depend on you because especially women you look for someone who's trustworthy who's really reliable who who can be accountable who says what they're going to actually does do it. <hes> and sometimes i have guys come off with sometimes women to you know they are taking back like i don't understand what you know. A luciano understand why we're not as close so on and so forth that's that's my stupid voice but i love doing voice so they just they just don't get it. Whenever they're the ones who get you know getting on the phone they go to a different room. Whenever they're having a conversation or they have a secret life or they have a double life or they're lying or they're acting fake and they they put this mask on. They're not understanding that you have to have this trust and they're degrading. They're deteriorating trust within relationship and wondering why the relationship i'm not getting to sixty wish well. She doesn't trust you man. You know so because it is huge because a woman is not going to get naked with a guy that she doesn't try because part of six is being vulnerable able you know for especially for women you know so <hes> if you're with someone that you can't be vulnerable with is going to be very hard to open unless you just looking for some you know flaying or impersonal final six where you're just more impersonal sex having masturbation with your partner honestly <hes> in. You're not looking for personal six. <hes> i think it has its place you know <hes>. I can't say necessarily unhealthy. A lot of people do in fact. The majority of society does the billing. You know what's crazy. I say the majority of the <hes> of the society. What did i do with that thing. <hes> it said that <hes> here this it says r._i._p.'s x-ray <hes> the newly coined term dead bedroom describes a relationship that remains sexless for an extended ended period of time as in months or or yikes years and it's incredibly common couldn't that be why would you be married if you're you know that that seems like that would be one of the major benefits of being married as you get have regular. <hes> you know intercourse sacks autistic. Most married couples do have more sex than well. I'll say it for men. Most married men have more sex than single men and that's just from a statistical standpoint but i know a lot of guys who have you know a roster of women who they can just call up at any point and we talked about this an opening there are a lot of women are cheating more than now but sexual dysfunction is a lot more common in relationships than you would think so when you have a lot of couples that come to my office normal couple but they have sexual dysfunction within the relationship and again ever related a different value on six because some people highly value. I've seen couples come in and they're really great friends but you know sex is not just an important <hes> and then i've seen that's what you want out of. It's a typical standpoint. You know gotten talks about how you have to have a five the one positive to negative interaction ratio in order to have a successful relationship or a stable relationship and there are different title stable relationship so we're getting to the six talk here in a second so one relationship has really stable they showed off the one that really affirm and he listened to each other the empathize with each other. Another relationship is a a little bit more conflict avoidance. They still show the five to one in another relationship highly volatile so that's a couple they argue a lot and they argued very heated <hes> however they may have good sex and they make up six and stuff like this so again every different value on sex but if you have a relationship that's just around six this then. You may be blinded by six. Ah you're missing out on some other things missing some red flags that you should be picking up on yeah because second blinded became. I'm gonna say this word. I'm gonna say those were. I had a client coin this form. He said she said you know what my friends say that i get not hypnotized. She says dick massaged the and she says i'll have six and i'll look over other things because the main is really good and i think that a lot of people do that. Ah both we have a caller jerry from grand berry. Hey jerry from cranberry that kinda rhymes. How are you today and thank you for calling in yeah. I know it's funny. I had your first persons called me that it's <hes> it's good to be listening to this. Show and we're talking about <hes> yeah. I'm gonna weird. Predicament right now started dating this girl and she's she's all about time management and every time family hang out. She's very strict about. I can only spend three hours and then she's got to get something else. I totally understand. I want her to go and live. Our lives do everything she wants to do but she's got this thing with time and does deal with the o._c._d. Thing that she's always trying the keeping check <hes> but i just it weirds me out now. I don't know how long it's gonna last in the cheese always we can't spend any longer than three hours together and you gotta get doing something else and i feel like the foundation of what we have. I don't know how much farther can go so interesting. That's an interesting interesting. So what do you think i don't know i'm having my mind is going in a lot of different directions. Feel the need to ask a few of the questions so well. Let me just explain plano city. You have different types of o._c._d. So you have like a symmetry o._c._d. You have contamination o._c._d. You have a sexual diversity. You have self harm o._c._d. Or harming other people all cd. You have a moral scruple but she seems to have a specific form o._c._d. Called just right. You know where things have to be just right <hes>. I'm wondering about her schedule as she like really busy. Does she ever like a very stressful job or does. She have a lot of things on her plate right now where she's just has to be conscious of time or is always strictly saying that hey this is is related to her o._c._d. Or assess a compulsive disorder now she's she's pretty busy i mean she works at a pet grooming place and it keeps her really really busy so it's not a matter of me wondering where she's at. It's just a matter of you know. She's got this thing in her life this o._c._d. That she deals with that or for the foundations of us having having a healthy relationship. I find myself wanting to spend more time with her so okay so we got to go to break you guys jerry. Stay on the line. We got to go to break and we'll be right back so everyone stay tuned. You're listening to one life radio. One life radio is brought to you by our sponsors. Great companies like sun warrior plant based protein use the code. Oh l. are for twenty percent off crazy water. The only mineral water bottled in texas honest temp happy healthy theonest c._b._d. Use the code. Oh l. are for twenty percent off nature's played plant based meals to go paleo magazine wellbeing journal and the international society of sports nutrition be sure to go to our thorn research dispensary on our website for twenty percent off and free shipping. Thank you for listening to one life. Life radio live three welcome back to one life radio. This is bernadette with go diamond gray <hes> in studio with us adriana barrientos of email dosa and von egeland. If you're just joining us find egeland is a licensed professional counselor supervisor and works with two group practices here in the dallas area. You can find them at preston placed counseling dot com or follow him on instagram at van talks we have jerry from grand perry on the line and he called up to ask ivana ni- a question about your girlfriend that will only give you three hours of her time <music> at a clip if you will and so what's up with that von that'll sketch does sound sketchy like what's up say she has o._c._d. So i think a couple of things need to happen phone number one if well if she's aware of her o._c._d. She needs to address it by going to a therapist so there's a specific form of their beca- exposure response prevention so they expose due to the thing that's making you anxious and then it kinda learn you you kind of learn how to step down from cognitive behavioral and amount from the standpoint so she needs to address the o._c._d. So because this is something that she's going to have to manage for the long haul and if you stay with it this is where you're poor comes in jerry is that you're going to have to make a decision with you're gonna help like walk through this <hes> in except therefore where she's at or if what she's dealing with this too much for you in terms of the relationship like <hes> you know i want to spend more than three with you at a time and if you don't do something thing about this then you know <hes> you may have exit relationship so i don't know how long you've been with her. I don't know if you love her. I don't know where you're at within a relationship out of this relatively new <hes>. Where are you at. I mean did you. Do you love this young lady or is this a new thing. Yeah i mean we've been together for a couple months now and i i really do care for a lot and we have a good connection and the rate gave me second think about it at i got thinking about the love languages and all that and i feel i can this specific situation. My love language seems to be time. One of the one of them is kind spent with each other and that's where i'm struggling with it. Whereas <hes> hers definitely seems to be touch our time spent together is very almost strictly physical and i'm not opposed to it. I it is it is is what it is but i our love languages seem to be different and her struggle with her o._c._d. Definitely is part of it but i'm it's trying to figure out if there's something i can do to convince her. <hes> you know we're we're trying to work through it but <hes> yeah it. It's quite an instant situation well. I think how you package is gonna be really important. So <hes> understanding always always precedes problem solving so if you go in speak with her about out this i will say approach it very gently and then try to approach with a lot of curiosity so hey. How does this affect you. Houses affected you and your pairs. <hes> you know what do you foresee in our relationship. <hes> at some point may want us to hey. This is what i'm wanting. Are you able to provide this. Oh you know the more you understand what she's going through and what she wants in a relationship to easier. It's going to be for you to make a decision moving forward. Maybe only take out comes down three hours leaves. I gotta go. Oh thank you quick. Thankful have be gracious all right. Thank you so much for coming in. That's funny <hes> everyone. I hope you enjoyed the show. We always enjoy doing it again. A big shoutout to our sponsors great companies like sun warrior environmental crazy water paleo magazine the wellbeing journal thorn research and the international society of sports nutrition. Everyone you get one body. You get one mind and you get one life. Get out there today and make the most of it.

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