20 Episode results for "Van Valkenburgh"

SOB #453 - Washington, Regulation & Bitcoin Custody with Peter Van Valkenburgh

Let's Talk Bitcoin!

29:20 min | Last month

SOB #453 - Washington, Regulation & Bitcoin Custody with Peter Van Valkenburgh

"And so even that fig-leaf even that apa that says that they have to consider public input and they have to have a notice publicly of the proposed change and then have a sixty day or so comment period where they accept feedback from the public. Even that is being ignored in this case so it really is a failure of democracy as the world turns and the by the administration gets going one regulatory holdover from the trump era is drawing a lot of attention. Is this the end. Probably not but we'll get into it. I'm to be levin and this is speaking of bitcoin for today's session. I'm joined by the other host of the show. Stephanie murphy andreas m and opelousas alot. Jonathan moham- and special returning guests. Peter van valkenburgh director of research at point center. Peter yes thanks for being here today. Yeah thanks for having me so thanks to all of our hosts and you the listeners. For sitting in on today's session. So peter i've been hearing a lot about the fincen comment period over this self custody wallet ruling that they will be making soon and a lot of people seem to be up at arms and quite a lot happening in the world right now both with the election. The bitcoin price and the lockdown so just winter in general such that. You know it's kind of hard to find oneself to care about anything especially when it's something that seems so banal as the government is asking for comments because later they might say something you might not like just in the realm of all the things that could happen and potentials that are occurring. It just seems so far off and distant. And i know that a lot of the people who are really looking into the such as yourself are really passionate about engaging on this problem so that we get the best outcome what is going on right now and why should we be concerned so you know. A lot of people are upset. I think you know first of all because this all happened over the holidays. We got an announcement from fincen. The friday before christmas and december that there was going to be a fifteen day comment period as you said for a proposed new rule that would affect bitcoin. Exchanges crypto currency exchanges in a pretty serious way. and so fincen. Is this agency in the treasury. That deals with financial surveillance. They do with so-called anti money laundering policy. But i prefer the term financial surveillance because it's really just warrantless data collection about all your financial transactions. That's the law that they deal with the bank. Secrecy act and so this comment period was to solicit public feedback in all fifteen days over the holidays and the new year's on this proposed rule change which would say hey. You're fewer crypto exchange if you got customers and you're holding bitcoin for them or other cryptocurrencies. You're already subject to the bank secrecy. Actually you already know your customers. You already file suspicious activity reports. But we're going to require some new reporting requirements and some new record keeping requirements about your customers some of which that apply to other financial institutions like kind of reports and records that banks need to keep but some of which are actually more strict more information that we want you to collect than we even require from banks and there's one particular requirement that they were proposing in that rulemaking. That basically would be very very difficult for exchanges to be able to meet and so it would lead to exchanges effectively choosing probably not to transact in certain ways because what that requirement was was this it says if your customer is starting transaction or receiving a transaction on say the bitcoin network or any other crypto currency you need to know that transactions either coming from another financial institution like crack into coin base or going to another financial institution coins to crack. And if it's not you need to know the name and physical address of the individual that it's coming or going to so we're talking just a regular old. Bitcoin wallet that i might have on ledger or tresor or something like that or just on an iphone touch if i'm sending transactions from that wallet to coin base coin base would need to know my name physical address. I mean to a customer coin mace personal. I'm actually paying. And you know as i don't need to tell you guys at all. That's not how the bitcoin network works. Bitcoin network has bitcoin addresses. And it has signatures to prove that you are. The you know sort of rightful person to be controlling the funds in those addresses or to control the ut a-x-i-o-s to be more specific so there's no name and physical address field in bitcoin transaction. Right in fact it doesn't even have to be a flesh and blood person receiving the transaction. It could be smart contract in something like that. Exactly the name physical address of any kind of you know payable machine or smart contract on any of these currency networks. So can we just put vitale. Lick taryn one theorem foundation dr. No that doesn't work for all smart smart contracts he's gonna have quite the dossier treasury no so this breaks the way these networks work and you could say well exchanges could just transfer it to your own wallet that you host yourself and then you could go and interact with smart contracts but this is sort of like an added level of complexity to using something like a smart contract or paying an individual. Who's not yourself and it's not just another level of complexity and bad for that reason. It's bad because it's not equal treatment with traditional financial institutions. So when you remove cash from your bank account or even when you send a wire from your bank account the record keeping requirements are flexible. The bank has to record all of the information you gave them about the transaction but there's certain fields like the recipient of the transaction where they only need to record the name and physical address for example if that information is available and so the law makes these excuses if you will for incomplete information at traditional financial institutions like banks. So why would we not get the same excuses at bitcoin financial institutions and. It seems as though there's just wasn't interest in providing that kind of flexibility to the crypto world that there is in the traditional financial world where most of the money laundering actually takes place. But also i mean showing its true colours where customers surveillance or consumer protections comes into play. Seems like the state tends to choose surveillance over consumer protections because as much as we tell everyone to custody their own coins. There's a large percentage of people who are a lot safer with their funds on an exchange and sending it back and forth to regular people and so taking that group of people that don't have any of those best practices and telling them now. Hey the only way for you to send or receive money is for you to self custody your coins and we're gonna see a lot of very unsophisticated. People losing a lot of funds and consumer protections about shielding people from loss consumer protection should also be about protecting their privacies. Some extent right and the minute you start creating these reports and these records of who owns both name and physical address which bitcoin address is the minute you create a fully searchable record of people's four financial history that name physical address information you match it with blockchain analysis and you can see every transaction ever happened like consumer protection is not the point. It's not when it's fincen and that's not really incense fault. Their focus is narrowly as sort of one part of a fragmented government approach to regulation that we have in the us. They're focuses narrowly on financial surveillance so-called market integrity which is a euphemism. I really don't like because markets are just people and markets as a whole can have integrity. That just seems strange to me. We've already seen the fallout from this type of problem but just a fraction of it. With the hack of the sales websites of the ledger company. It leaked names phone numbers and physical addresses of two hundred ninety two thousand people now just without will be seen phishing attacks against text messages and emails. We've seen sim swapping attacks attempting to hijack phone numbers. So they can break into exchange accounts and other things like that they use them two factor authentication but we've also very worringly seen phone calls and threats and letters being sent to the physical address of these people threatening that they will come and invade their home. Now what we're talking about here is collecting a honey. Pops that is maybe two orders of magnitude bigger. And you know the one. Saving grace of the ledger hack. Is that out of the two hundred and ninety thousand people. You have no idea who actually has an how much they have. Which means that the type of high risk low return attack of physical invasion of their home or something like that doesn't make sense because you know they may have five bucks and you've just taking a huge risk for a very small return but will we're talking about here is all of that information plus balances or at least transaction history. That can be used to reconstruct balances which point you sort the list by richest load up the shotgun and you start robbing them one after the other and little consolation that this is going to secure government facility. We've seen that. They couldn't even keep the office of government management or whatever it was called the embi database of clearances and background information for their own opium or the nsa information that was leaked and frankly just recently fins in itself had leaks of suspicious activity reports and so we would be talking about you know. Similar reports being made crypto transactions and these name and physical address fields being filled with respect to people who aren't even the exchanges customer and. This is something. I want to point out as particularly egregious. We point this out in our comment. We drafted a common in a hurry. Although i think we did it in next job laying out all the privacy and constitutional arguments and process deficiencies in that comment and we filed it and in that comment we talk about the fourth amendment. Which you know if you're familiar with constitutional law the fourth amendment says the government's not supposed to search your private papers and effects without a warrant and particularized individual suspicion of a crime and the bank. Secrecy act is this law. That says hey. If you're a bank you need to on behalf of the government collect everybody's financial records without individual suspicion and without a warrant and give them to us so the question is always. Why is the bank. Secrecy act even constitutional if it's this massive dragnet and the answer comes in the form of the third party doctrine which is this notion that when you hand your information over to a third party whether it's a bank or whether it's like an email provider like google or something like that you'll lose your reasonable expectation of privacy over that information which means according to the supreme court in the nineteen seventies in california bankers association versus schultz. The government doesn't need to have a warrant in order to get that information. But there's something interesting about the third party doctrine. Recently in a case called carpenter the supreme court came out and said yes so cellular. Phone providers have a lot of location data on customers but the customers didn't voluntarily give that information to the third party and the third party doesn't hold it for a legitimate business purpose so actually we think even with the third party doctrine notwithstanding a warrant should be required for law enforcement to get your location data from a cellular provider. And so you take that and you apply that to this situation with the bank. Secrecy act where. They're collecting this information about their customers. They're also under this new proposed rule. They're obligated to collect information about their customers. Counterparties the people that are paying their customer and the their customer paying and those people are not voluntarily handing their information to joint base just by making a transaction from my personally hosted bitcoin wallet to coin base. I didn't sign up for this kind of surveillance or james. I didn't hand my information over. I retain a reasonable expectation of privacy in the very important data which is that linkage between my real identity and my bitcoin address and forcing coin based to effectively collect that information and search and survey on me is basically like forcing coin based to come into my home and take a piece of very important paper or information from my home and so i think there's actually really strong fourth amendment argument that this proposed rule is unconstitutional. And that's one of several arguments. We made about why this rulemaking should not go forward from a layman's perspective. When we come to talking about old things to politicians so they can understand it better. Is there a material difference between sending your bitcoin from an exchange to somebody else as currently stands and going to your bank and getting money order. Because i understand it ordered doesn't have a recipient it's paid for in cash. There's you give it to anyone. That person goes to any bank and then they get cash and to the best of my knowledge they just show identity documents that say that they're the person on the money order and then that's it so. Is this the type of thing. Where if a money order was trying to get made. Today the government would make it illegal. Is there a double standard here. Is the government could abend money orders. Like i'm just trying to process in what ways the different than that. And why is there different treatment. You've hit the nail on the head. There's different treatment here and that gets to further arguments as to why this is inappropriate because fen has always taken a technology neutral standpoint. Where it just you know. Same risk same policy same business same policy and this breaks with that says special treatment for certain types of businesses. even the risks are the same. Because you're spot that a cashier's check many types of money orders even a personal check if it's got endorsed to several other people along the chain because you can do that you can sign up check over to someone else. You can check out to cash. These are all effectively bearer instruments and the bank has no idea where they're going to end up which is why the regulations are flexible. With to the information the bank needs to collect about those transactions. Now there is a special report that is triggered when you deal with these so-called bear instruments or monetary and it's called a currency transaction report. So if you take more than ten thousand dollars in cash out of your bank or you ask for a ten thousand dollars or more cashier's check or you get one of these money orders to cash. That's over ten thousand dollars in all those situations. The bank isn't going to know who you're paying a net accepted unacceptable by the regulator but the bank is going to be obligated to file a report. Saying hey my customer just moved a lot of liquid funds and that's going to raise suspicion about your activities and you know we can argue about whether this is good policy or not but that's the way things are for similar instruments to bitcoin and so if all of this rulemaking was doing was saying let's apply the same currency transaction report requirement to bitcoin transactions. It would extend the surveillance regime and so that gives me osita if you will but at least it would be equal treatment instead. This is saying let's have the reporting requirement for transactions over ten thousand and for any transaction over three thousand a completely lower threshold. You also needs to know the physical address and name of the person your customers ultimately paying with those funds so it's just unacceptable that it's this unbalanced playing field. I think there's another little hidden nugget in there. Which is the ten thousand dollar amount. And now the three thousand dollar amount because when the bsa was passed in what was it. Nineteen seventy-one the amount was hard coded not indexed to inflation not adjusted for purchasing power. Nothing and so yeah shirt. Ten thousand in nineteen seventy dollars. Huge amount of money now. The can't even buy a quarter of a car according to the latest statistics. So what's changed is that they put these hard coded numbers in there and then let inflation do its job so that essentially the banks are playing. This regulatory limbo with a bar keeps getting nowhere in lower and lower in. The banks are contorted themselves for greater and greater and greater percentage of the transactions. That goes through them simply through monetary inflation now during the same thing with the three thousand three thousand today but three thousand in ten years time is going to be you know what to lotteries. Yeah especially with a quantitative easing. That's going on address what we should really be asking for although would never get it. Is that they hard code. The numbers but in bitcoin is the numerator. You know what. I'd like a different one code the number so that the multiples of federal minimum wage for an hour. So what you say. Is you have to suspicious activity report if it's more than seven hundred hours of the federal minimum wage. Watch them have to change that too. So we've actually already averted the worst case scenario which is good news. The worst case scenario was that secretary mnuchin former secretary mnuchin now. His treasury would finalize that rule making fifteen days after it was announced which would have been before the new administration came in the biden administration and once that rulemakings finalized it becomes effectively like law. You'd need to create a whole new proposed rulemaking to overturn it. There'd be a whole process and even if the incoming biden administration is less hungry for this kind of record keeping which there's arguments that they might be a little less focused on this particular rule they would have to go through this process of reopening and changing something. That's already law so unlikely to happen now. Fortunately in part. I think because of the deluge of comments and many very good comments that fincen received in the rulemaking we filed to the electronic frontier foundation filed a great comment. Mit filed an excellent comment. And there were as i said. Seven thousand comments total which is more than vinson's ever gotten. Vincent normally only gets comments from a few financial institutions. I remember reading somewhere that in the past ten years this one comment period has received seventy percent of all public comments that fincen has ever received. That sounds right and the reason why this is important. Is they're obligated under the administrative procedure. Act to read in. Consider every comment now. They claim that they've hired a whole bunch attempts or something. I suppose but it starts to look very disingenuous. If after a fifteen day comment period you come out with a final rule a day later and say we read all seven thousand comments so in part because of the number of comments the quality of the comments the arguments raised maybe the fourth amendment argument maybe the procedural switchers that look normally comments take sixty days banks of sometimes had six years to offer input on new recordkeeping requirements because of these several arguments. I think they decided to extend the comment period and that meant that the comment period got extended into the next administration. That's also worth noting that it was probably a short as it was fifteen days because it was meant to fit at the very end of the administration not for some actual real public policy concern and so once it got extended into the biden administration the biden administration before they even came in announced. Look we're gonna put a freeze on all pending executive actions so making included and this along with lots of other things that were in progress from the last days of the trump administration got frozen and that is very promising because it means that folks at fincen for example who are more career staff rather than political appointees who may have had reservations about the rushed nature of the process will be able to have their say with the new administration and say look. There are a lot of reasonable comments that just came in. We're taking them all in. Maybe we should just seek equal treatment with traditional financial recordkeeping and reporting requirements. And not good for the six jordans recordkeeping requirement or. Maybe even better. It just gets dropped because the vitamin nistration says look. We're not gonna continue this. It was a product the last administration. We might something on our own down the road. But we're going to drop this one for now. I have some insight into why mnuchin chose to do a fifty a comment period. It has to deal with the backgrounds of former secretary mnuchin and see most people. Don't remember that mnuchin is the same who made and millions of dollars from robo signing mortgage foreclosures and then managed to get away with it without engine in up in prison as he very much should have. So maybe what he was thinking was that he could robo process all of these comments with the same degree of disregard for due process common decency and humanity as he did when he was previously. That's just my interpretation and opinion of course just in case. We forgot who he was begging for. That andrey's what is the process for making a comment in public comment period. Such as this like do tweets count as a public comment or do you have to like write them a letter. I had the same question. I asked if you can attach him inches. Yeah i'm curious about that. You could submit a pdf some images if you wanted. It's a good question sometimes. there's just open an email address and say email us. They didn't in this case. Which made it a little tricky to get them to be deluge with comments because it would have been easier to just set up a form that manufacturers emails. This time it was a really difficult to use probably. Php form on a website where you can upload a pdf and just in general on the process of soliciting comments so your listeners. Who aren't familiar with the administrative law procedures. This is a way to really get the numbers to stun your subscribers ask for people are familiar. You like what is this. I thought congress makes laws. You are right. Congress is supposed to set policy. Congress is supposed to be the democratically elected people who are accountable to the public who decided important consequential things about the way. Our government works including things like whether your privacy is going to be violated or not right well. Unfortunately congress kind of abdicates job quite often creates a broad statute that empowers branch of the executive government. So treasury in this case with a lot of power to rewrite rules and that's not technically lawmaking because that would be wrong that would violate the separation of powers that's the job of the legislature not the executive. But it's basically what's happening and in the nineteen fifties in response to the explosion of the administrative agencies and then the number of rules that were being made by people who aren't democratically elected representatives. We passed the administrative procedure. Act which says. Look if we're going to have these technocrat bureaus making law effectively. It at least needs to be done in a transparent process that respects input from the public. Sort of a fig-leaf for democracy. Because honestly they just get to listen to your comments. They don't have to really take them to heart so there's no voting involved here but it was at least something in a process that was otherwise a complete black boxes to how new rules get put in place and so even that fig-leaf even that apa that says that they have to consider public input and they have to have a notice publicly of the proposed change and then have a sixty day or so comment period where they accept feedback from the public. Even that is being ignored in this case. So it really is a sort of failure of democracy. I think that this demonstrates the anti fragility and growth of bitcoin because the last time bitcoin was attacked by a website britain predominantly in. Php was now docks. So peter this has been great. We really appreciate your time today. And as we wrap. I'd like to get your take on one thing. So janet yellen former fed chair and current nominee for treasury in the new biden administration recently said something to the effect of i think crypto is mainly used for illicit financing with specifically reference to terrorist activity. And things like that. This comes at a time when tensions are kind of high around like what's going to happen with bitcoin and it comes as a contrast to what we've seen from some of the industry surveillance companies out there like china which you know in a recent report basically said that about zero point. Three four percent of all activity across. Bitcoin is actually illicit activity. So what is your expectation for. Kind of the approach that we're going to see from this new administration. I appreciate that. I'm asking you to pull out your crystal ball here so just best guesses only totally fair question. But i think the quote that is being spread around as sort of ominous as an ominous sign. For what we'd expect from secretary. Alan going forward is an overstatement of her position in her written testimony and in written responses to additional questions about digital assets. And things like this. She took a much more balanced few. She said i'm quoting now. We need to look at the potential. They have to improve the efficiency of the financial system. We know they can be used to. Finance terrorism facilitate money laundering and support malign activities that threaten us national security interests in the integrity of the us and international financial systems. I think we need to look closely at how to encourage their use for more legitimate activities. So this is the kind of typical balanced approach. We would expect from a regulator who is tasked with stopping money laundering and stopping terrorist financing to say look there are legitimate uses. There's ways to encourage responsible innovation. But they're going to be focused on these things and that's their job. That's reasonable and it's the job of organizations like coin sennar to effectively lobby them. We don't lobby on behalf of any companies we lobby on behalf of the technology itself the protocol. That's so well documented described by andreas. That's what we go to do is to educate people about how the tech works and why there are really promising use cases why this is something that will ultimately be a boon for human dignity and privacy and a healthy america. And so i did want to get in a quick plug before you let me go if you are interested in supporting our work at coin center so we can keep churning out comments over christmas holidays and doing other activities were really excited to announce that through the month of february gray scale. Investments is going to be doing a matching campaign for every donation. Put in you'll double your money through gray scale. Basically up to a million dollars of a donation to coin center so now's a really good time to support us. If you think the work we do is important. Send janet yellen valentine's card this february by funding coins and shutdown her craziest idea. And so what you can do is donate in the name of janet yellen to coin center peter just to clarify for those who are thinking in the past calendar year that matching program lasts through december of two thousand and twenty one. No it's through february of this year. It's just the month of february peter. If people wanna find the website if you want to support the work where she'll be going to you can find all our public policy resources and make a donation on coin center dot org and quinn centers. Five one c three right. No we're five. Oh one c. Four which allows us to do more direct lobbying of folks but it's not tax deductible to the donor then okay so then you're not giving any additional tax. Write offs to janet yellen. Should you donate in her name so go ahead and do that. And then for those who have not been following coin centers heavily as they should they have been one of if not the most prominent long-lasting advocacy groups that are nonpartisan for the betterment of bitcoin. In the crypto currency community. Sort of bar. None and i'll say that in the early days. We all thought that that might have been the bitcoin foundation and a lot of what coins center came to be. Came out of what people thought. The best of the bitcoin foundation could be an. I'm telling you peter in hindsight though you know. I won't betray past south. I do wish right now. I had three point five. Bitcoin to give to coin center. Instead of you. Lifetime membership. I got to the big foundation. And that's a wrap another episode of speaking of bitcoin. Today's episode featured. Peter van. Valkenburgh stephanie murphy. Andreas m antonakopoulos. Jonathan mohana and myself. Adam levine is was edited by jonas. Richard music by jared rubin's thanks to all the hosts for the time today and to all our listeners. Stay tuned for our next episode.

fincen biden administration secretary mnuchin treasury Stephanie murphy andreas Jonathan moham Peter van valkenburgh point center Lick taryn office of government government california bankers association Bitcoin mnuchin levin osita supreme court vitale
NLU Podcast, Episode 198: Bay Hill Recap w/ Kevin Van Valkenburg

No Laying Up

1:00:07 hr | 2 years ago

NLU Podcast, Episode 198: Bay Hill Recap w/ Kevin Van Valkenburg

"Feeder right club today. That's better than most. About in is better than most. Expecting things are guys. We got a great podcast coming shortly. First off. I don't think this is gonna come as any surprise on. What I'm about to say Francesco ball Nari first week as a Callaway Stafford lead the field in strokes gain off the tee with his epic flash. Subzero driver. Oh, and he just had what he called the best putting round of his life with his two lawn Madison stroke lab putter I've been using the the oh works. I've got I've got a two long one sitting over there been hesitant to use it. But after seeing that I might have to the least least try it out and been a little frayed to switch putters. But it might be time. He's also gaming epoch flash sub zero fairway wood apex, NBA irons MAC, daddy, four wedges. So again, just a follow up on what was said on the most recent episode when he said the golf ball is the best one he's ever played. I think it's fair to say he meant it remarkable achievement to win the first week after an equipment change. I think that speaks volumes for the quality that he's using. Without any further delay. Let's ROY Kevin van Valkenburgh to wrap up from Bay Hill. Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to the no Lang podcast. The guys are not here tonight. They are off at a concert. So we called in the reliever called in the righty made the motion to the bullpen. Kevin van Valkenburgh. It's been a little while it's been since the Ryder Cup. I think the first question. People people want answered is we need Gary players take on the Europe the Europeans taken over the leaderboard at the Arnold. Chris. Thank you. So happy to be. First of all an exciting wind Frankie Narine win for Callaway. Not going to be moving. Puddles off the shelves right into the efforts. And he beat a seventeen year old, man. Matthew, patrick? He will go to just be impressive. It doesn't. I'm not particularly pleased with his fitness Scotland. Little bit of a jelly w reggae hanging over his belt got credible bowl strike, and I'm so happy for Frankie. The free for just go Molinari awoke european-gulf Twitter. I hadn't heard from them actually since the last time. You you run the podcast and talk about the Ryder Cup. I think this should be my role is to come on every now, and then and just get your Twitter like ready to go. Again, this kind of lie dormant, they're just enjoying their socialized medicine, and and you know, quaint lives while we wither away and throws of late capitalism. And then now European Twitter's back I I'm hoping that they're kind of playing a parody. But there were some questions of all, right? So now really good have dumped it the rudder Cup for the next five years. Like, listen, no one turns the page on the next Ryder Cup faster than I did. And I was stunned at some of the things I was reading today. But no, obviously, the whole landscape of golf is changed its one week at the Arnold Palmer invitational. Without a doubt. They're gonna put rough all like Sanderson farms timeshare. I'm sure as a result of this. It's just you're gonna see all kinds of firm and fast courses plan, you know, throughout the play offs. That'll that won't make the players upset at all. It's today was the finish. Finish was not exciting. I think but for the actual finish that we the finish was just wait earlier than was the end of the actual telecast, it was about two hours before Rory Fitzpatrick made their way around but. It wasn't that exciting. But it was the Monets putt leading up into the broadcast team almost like they knew what was going to happen. They spent so long before that putting I know he was already in the lead. But they really did set it up really, well, he drains it. And then Paul his says, there's never been a bicker moment his career. Like is believed that that was true or that. He just totally forgot that like this is the defending open champion. I wanna chock it up to like getting caught up in the moment, and maybe referring to specific PGA tour career, it's a big leap to make. But I know he wasn't on the broadcast team now, but your new network also broadcast that offense less than like nine months ago. Whatever it was it wasn't like this. The biggest moment is fed ex Cup career. Remember this forever? I mean that put was final round sixty four gained almost eight shots on the field Sunday. So I think I mean, this kind of an obvious question to ask. And you know, luckily, the and the poster on interview it was the second question that was asked. But how do you think this win affects in for next week for the Players Championship? Probably gives them some good governance for the players that, you know, it's I'm sure he won't skip it now, you know. I mean talk about the answer the question that nobody is asking like literally, nobody. We're also broadcasting this next week which really secretly quietly trying to sell it as the fifth major after years of saying that we weren't doing that. Could you just like way quickly into that event? And talk about how like important it is for that the focus next week. We're going to do plenty of players stuff. But looking back at it. Now, I always kind of pisses me off when the other network will after somebody wins. We'll say the on this gets you in Augusta. And I never really noticed. The difference of of how they don't do that on NBC. It's like winning a PGA tour Vince a big ass deal to allow these guys. Yes. Going to Augusta is a big part of kind of the benefits of that. But it's just so funny to me that they transitioned immediately the play they don't even you're not even allowed to mention the masters. We're we'll get to the players stuff. I don't I don't I really all joking aside. I don't put any stock into the fact that there was a ton of euros at the top of the leaderboard, actually, meaning anything do you not really? I mean. Okay. Rivi rib had like really good rough to and it's not as if like the euros were like dominating that that was a bunch of Americans Rory were sort of in the mix of that. I mean, I think you just get weeks where I think there may be something to say like if you combine Chris greens than hard shots where he got it. You're hitting long irons and hard rough that that might suit, you know, it might just sort of make the bombed gouging sort of harder to do. But I don't think that like one sort of event can of really can you can play that trimmed out that much further bunch of do a good week. Like, it's Keith Mitchell also had a really weak. He's not exactly like a stylist who like, you know, could sort of think his way around the European Tories guy. Just rips off the tee every time. I'm so I'm not sure those quite six quite hold up. I mean, so we're we're not saying that Keith Mitchell is the best American player in the world right now, clearly Keith Mitchell should be the captain of the next rider because see he clearly could get it done in. Whatever course they're gonna play in Rome. They've built it yet. All right. We got the most almost all the questions we got were basically about Rory. So I'm ready to I'm ready to talking about this. I've tried so hard to defend it. I feel like I'm bursting at the seems like an infomercial. You know, where they had flex seal stuff where they smack it on the water leaks and everything trying to hold up all these leaks. You better believe it. Well, he finished t six now, he's not even log in the top fives anymore. He's making it even harder for me to make these arguments wrong direction Sali. This is really disappointing. Well, here's as I was kind of compiling a couple of notes for this evening. I started thinking like, you know, what used to be a, quote unquote, and knock on Rory was all the back door top-five finishes. He's had. And now he's going the other what which is worse, which which way to people want. You can't have it both ways like fading into a t six or back during a t six both just completely unacceptable results for ROY. Is that is that fair to say, yes? I actually have some stats here. I came prepared. Yeah. Thanks to Ben Cauley of of one of those gambling websites over there in Europe. I'm sorry that I can't remember off the top ahead. But he so here is Rory in the final group since twenty sixteen. These are his okay, seventy four sixty nine. He won that one the Chopin nice sixty eight second second, seventy two lead. That was in the like the by thinking seventy four spat decreed seventy Bonar beat him Seventy-three JT due to Firestone seventy four to tiger. When tiger on championship. Seventy two the tour championship sixty seven that was against EJ. And now seventy two get small Ari. So we're looking at kind of two years almost of data. There. Can we extrapolate anything for the fact that he only shot in the sixties was three out of ten rounds there and one one time like feel like I I'm. Always torn because like he's really one of my favorite athletes like of all time, he's just such an thoughtful inciteful person. But I think that we would be doing like the listeners whatever are the readers that. I have a disservice. If we didn't sort of talk about the fact that like, it seems like he needs an extra system or something it seems like whatever he had in fourteen fifteen where he could just throttle down in and takeover tournaments is just missing. I don't know what it is. And I don't know if ever come back. I do know that I'm kinda tired of reading the story. That's that's essentially been written. Even by me. That's like ROY. You've got figured out. Now yet wars, you know, this is he's in great place. Mentally, and he sees talked to Brad Faxon. He's talked to you know, whatever. And he's got he's got a doubt in now. Like the till you do it. I just don't really wanna hear it anymore. You know, what I think that could be working against ROY is that he's he's a bit too smart in that. Think when he was really young especially going up till he's turned twenty five on four majors by the time before he turned twenty six he was a bit young and dumb. He was he's not he's a smart guy. He's always been a smart guy. But didn't know his what's the word. I'm looking for like the fact that it couldn't go his way like he was tricked himself mentally into thinking this, you know, the way it's going to be for me. And when I get in contention, I'm gonna blow people away, and I think he's maturity just kind of become more aware of all the talented is around him. And I I don't know if that if that makes sense, but the kind of is like he doesn't seem to have that I can beat the world mentality anymore. It almost seems like his ceiling has lowered bit. I'm not exactly sure how or why? But I mean, he's still obviously incredible incredible incredible golf, and I kind of wanted to like a serious question. Would you feel better about his play going into the players? Of course, would you feel better if you had one win, but like? About two of his top finishes for miss cuts. Would you feel better about about a season? I don't think so. Although it's interesting he wants said, I remember because I was I was basically falling for the year to feature about him. He said, I've just I know that my game is going to be like win three times mystery cuts. I'd rather have that than like finishing top five a lot. And I wonder like if you read that quote to now what he would think like, I wonder I mean, you could flip it and look at it the other way and say if he had one win it would sort of like give him the the shot of self confidence. Like, yeah, I'm still f- in man like I can still frigging do this. Who cares? If I missed the cut, you know, at this this thing by I know, I can throw darts and make pots when I need to. And I just I remember when we were like kids. I would you know, when we were just kind of learning golf you'd hear like, whether it was, you know, Venturi or Johnny Miller talking about like guys who had scars on like from like. Missing putts over the years. Like, you know, that those mental mental thing kind of built up over time. And what I think now is that like we've seen like the whole entirety of Oris career. We've seen those sort of scars start to form. It's like if you're if the narrative is always like, you can't figure out putting and every time you stand over for footer and you shove it onto inches. Right. You you can't help. But like think I think this is exactly what's going on the speech right now. God shut up wish. He would just stop talking about this. And that's the kind of mental scars that like build up over time. And how do you especially if you're smart person, your intellectual, and you can't just kinda like go blank or go take it to black? I think as as sort of talks about how do you not think about all of that other shit swirling around you, and just you know, putt on just trust? It's going go in think people used to say oh will space. Can't putt like he can't he's he's not gonna be the same player. And I used to sort of say screw that. You're so stupid like dumb take. And now, I find myself a little bit like I don't know like to some of those scars start to build up to the point where does is always going to feel that way. And even even is one of the best iron players in the whole world is that going to linger for a long time. Or is he able to find the thing that helps them conscious make as mind go blank again, you know, thinking about this today, and I don't want this to be taken to literally. But kind of what you're just saying is something that somebody like Francesco Molinari does not have to deal with in that don't get don't mean this literally. But no, one cares. Hell Francesco Molinari. Plays plays. Great. That's wonderful. And people celebrate. He's an incredible player. But he plays poorly. Like, no, he doesn't have to answer questions about it. It's not a worry. Nobody's there's no expectations on him. There's no one. He's got deliver for it doesn't have to think about like, what will people say about me if I don't close this out. And that's something that. Guys, like, Rory speed all have to deal with a totally different level. And I have no possible idea of understanding how that affects your game at the top level. But I would be I I would have to think that when it's not going great when it's not going. You're absolute best. It has to be a detriment to you totally used to say that about Brooks KEPCO like he doesn't know how good he has it like not having answer interview questions after shooting seventy one and for whatever you feel about tiger. Like he for the entirety of his career, essentially ninety nine point three percent of the time stood up there after every round answer questions about every little like putt that wiggled or after right? Like he he knew that that was kind of his role in his part of the game. And like you see in all ready like in enrolling in speeds career, where they didn't love that fact, like, you know, Jordan, shoot seventy four seventy five of the been and he's furious. And he doesn't wanna talk to the press whatever like. That's just part of the Burnham. And that's why it was joked about kept guys like, you know, he when he was complaining about I was like, all right. Every major that. I'm at I'm going to go up to him. No matter what shoots and ask him in. What did you think about today, whatever? Because if you're that good of a player that's part of the burden of it. And then you realize how what kind of like devil's bargain that is they might give you a little bit more attention. But oh my God every time it doesn't go. Great. Like, you still have to stand up and talk about it that can be it's like a mental cycle of misery. And again that goes back to tiger ruining things forces tiger has dealt with that for every round for twenty years, and obviously handled it better than maybe anybody in history, but that's like a superhuman level of dealing with it, and you know, as much as his long jetty hasn't lasted on a major championship level. The fact that he has been, you know, he's come back and one in his forties and had the super long career with obviously some big gaps. And it was injuries. It says a lot. I mean, ROY has not been able to he never reached full tiger expectations. Or you know that. Kind of play which we weren't really counting on him too. But he hasn't even been able to maintain the top level that he's reached at. So again tiger ruined. Everything force. I think that contributes so much to this sports talk radio culture of this winning thing being so so important. And we got a couple of good questions about Jared, gouge if ROY recent superb form encourages you going into the masters or inability to close these tournaments have you have you more concerned for his chances to complete the career slam. I don't know. I don't I don't read too much into that. But again, I go back to like playing really well, honestly for the for voice sake. Like winning a bunch leading into the masters would be the opposite of what he I'm sure he's trying to win these tournaments. But from always talks about how he wants it quietly. Once it quiet going into the masters, if you wins to events before hint, it's going to be quiet going into it. No, the expectations would be absurd. You know, what I was thinking actually is this is kind of media insider thing, but you know, so many of the guys at Augusta year they have to do like the Tuesday press conference where they go in and they sort of get questions from everybody for, you know, a half an hour or whatever. And it's you know, it's convenient for the press to sort of all have that and have a transfer of it. It's like fire. Roy the sure I'd be like, you know, what I'm just if you wanna talk to me, you can meet me after my practice under the big tree like out by the maranda. But I'm not doing any presser the sheer. There's I've no obligation for it. I'm not a defending champion. There's no reason why I shouldn't. They know that just I want to keep it sort of casual and keep it light to share. And so. A happy to talk to you guys. But I'm not gonna sit there and bare my soul Intel you like, yeah, I've, you know, each some point this out to me years ago. And if you look back in the transcripts true every year that he comes to Augusta. He's has some sort of like, you know, in in this, especially true in the last four years but ever since he sort of blew it in ten whoever was eleven he has some sort of a new mentality of like I've been like grinding over it so hard to share or. Yeah. You know, actually, I've I've not taken it that serious issue. Oh, yeah. Like, I've got a medical. Yeah. I've got I've been really sort of working on putting I came here. Ten times with my dad didn't visit the course at all. And it's like dude like you're already down the weird rabbit hole of this. Like, you can't keep sort of just like trying different things. Just don't even talk about anymore. Just I know as a person in the media that that seems like absurd for me to say, but for his sake, I think it'd be like that it's like I'm just not going there. I don't care if I'm that's how I've always been. But now, I'm not gonna do it. Because it's. Not helping me and it's not like he got you. Go into the masters with like a fifty percent chance of winning tiger at his absolute best never went in with like an actual better than twenty five percent. Chance of winning. I know the odds stay differently because that's heavily influenced by how much people bet on you and whatnot. But like if you went straight by data like ROY never showed up with a greater than ten percent. Chance of winning the masters. So imagine like. I don't know what it what the comparison to that would be. But you can't change up your approach to it. And I know he probably feels that. He hasn't played his best possible Gulf there, which you know, if that means you have to change your approach to it. I support that. But just because you didn't win doesn't mean you have to change everything you do about it. You may be able to take the same approach. Same kind of repeatable approach and learn and build off that and and, you know, learn no the state of your game. And I mean, it's all variables because you can take the same approach one year and be and be totally lost coming in the next year following that same approach. But I and that's where I think like two separate things one. You kind of busted what I was getting ready to say by citing all those bad scores in the final round that he said like he walked into today. Like when he woke up today, he had a per data golf. He had a twenty five percent chance of winning the golf tournament today. And I think people look at the final pairing. He wasn't even in the league going into it. But you know, when you have that many people up there, and it's only one shot exchange. People think that just the top player is going to run pass people. But and again that percentage. Factors in his ability. The field is going up against the golf course all that stuff. And it was twenty it was a one in four chance that he would win today. And I know he didn't play great it's too. But I think it's two separate things. Like if you shot sixty nine days shot three hundred he still wouldn't even made a playoff. So he just excites. He he makes us think that like when he's when you look on the graphics and he's fifty yards past Patrick. I know and Fitzpatrick cage still hitting it inside of him. You're just like why aren't you? Converting more of these things. And that's what's that's why people. That's why like all this conversation is about Rory. Not on are not as Patrick not Refco boroughs. This like it seems like he should be able to. He has the skills to convert more of these things, and that's why the potential for him was always so high like everyone just thought like oh my God. Like how is five nine kid out here? Just ripping the ball like in making hitting the kind of towering shots tire. It. Why can't he do? The other part of the truth is tiger. Was frigging superhuman. And so like, yeah. Like, you might be able to do some of the things attire do. But that's not. What may tiger? Great. Ty was great because he could Vert all that kind of stuff. And so I think our expectations of always been a little bit out of whack. But you know, I think I was still very would still be of -mongst the five players or so that I would say with mode likes most likely to win the masters. The thing about we've even talked about this heavy literally on this podcast before doesn't need to putt that great to win the masters. The everyone putting sort of neutralize there because in so frigging hard. And so if he played fairly safe, and well and hit to the middle of every one of those greens and birdied all the par fives and through England there in limited. It's bogies he'd be right in it. And all you gotta do to really be you know to win. It is to be in. It comes Saturday afternoon and get hot. Right moment. And he's had some rounds where he's kinda gotten hot the right moment. It's it's just he doesn't have to like figure out putting before the masters. He just has to kind of get the combination of luck and not make dumb mistakes like viewers ago when he was like left in the trees at eleven was like let me hit hard hook around the corner here. See if I could bounce it off the mound into the middle of eleven green. That's probably not particularly smart play. I love it list. Just in my own game. But election, Rory I think in Porton distinction that you just made there too as we again, we're not comparing Rory to tiger. But the way that, you know, ROY coming after tiger just screwed up our curve for what we expect in somebody. You know, like, even if you're not going to be tiger. We needed to be this. And it's right now, I would say it's on the he was even agree. He's fallen short of what he thinks his full potential is. So also per data golf he is number one on the data golf trend index which indicates how many strokes better or worse a player has performed in relation to the field in their last twenty rounds. So as much as much the results, haven't totally followed. He has he is trending. They would say Keith buck out ask. But one of you guys let Ashley Bongiovanni. No that ROY is deceased because the poor girl will be heartbroken. She desserts. That would was a shining shining moment in the going to the Twitter replies. Yeah. Someday, I feel like there should be like, you know, Sports Illustrated. Does that poster where it's like a cut out a little piece of every college basketball player, every Sibley think there should be like noling origins poster that has like, you know? Panther, mike. Mani cave. Doing the Gary Player impression of it. It's all part of the origin stars. We still plan to do a podcast hopefully this week on just all these stupid dumb inside jokes that we have of the years. Just just catch anyone up. If you've ever if you ever lost as well. We call use Loughton uncle juice like we're going to explain all that. So I've got the bench of the top benefits. Patrick get zero. Fedex Cup points today since he's not a PGA tour member. So that's pretty cool. And that's pretty cool on the big cat on the no the big cat was him. Missing this week a big deal to you. I thought it was a little strange. Why would I don't know off? So even he kind of decided I'd wanna play enough tournaments this year, whatever to get into the playoffs. I don't even know why that really matters. But I would think that someone of the PGA tour is probably black begging him like please don't just play like ten tournaments this share like, please, you know, be here for the long haul. But his neck is really just kinda sore. Feels like he can't do. It was weird that I think he didn't talk to the press last today's in Mexico, and then kinda pulled out of this. It just it's it's the Gulf TV era. That's that to me is here. I I'm going to switch to flip flop in one thing thing ROY shouldn't reveals much himself in complain that Tigers to his state sponsored media in house media thing. I don't know. I mean, we'll see how he looks the this week has opposed. But I what I what is playing this week. What does he have approve? To was exactly rack up ninth win here at all Marino's e really feel like he needs to be the only it was maybe different when he was living in Orlando's like I was talking to just read what point on walking around rounds. She was like, I was like, oh that putt. So hard on eighteen. She was like, yeah. Give a tiger made it all the time 'cause he lives like two blocks away. Of course, all the time. This goes out in the dark and reads that. It was pretty sweet comment soon. As like, a bet totally sneaks out here late at night platypuses that putt throwing that I actually heard from a very credible source that tiger does not even like Bay Hill. I know I know that sounds absolutely insane. But he doesn't even like the golf course. I actually wrote down that like, I've actually changed my mind since I wrote this down that I thought him missing this event was a big deal since he's like seventy five times. And he skips the Honda because he wanted to play this one. And I look back at them. Like, honestly, what does like winning this event or doing well in this event do for him if he's feeling slightly less than healthy? He's sumit's playing this week. He just wanted to be a little bit better shape for the players. He's going to you know, put the clubs up or get back on the grind session. And try to peak for Augusta like it really doesn't matter for him this event. I know he's won it. And I know it used to be a hometown event for him. But I really I've changed my mind. I don't think it was a big deal that he missed. So if there was no such thing as like the FedEx Cup playoffs, and you just play whatever he wanted. There was no minimum requirement. I really wonder how often we would see tiger play the whole like, well, I gotta get reps in tournaments feed not stuff. But like, you know, I honestly like, you're if you're playing tiger in your like exempt in like eighty different ways in your never how you could get a sponsor's invite into literally anything like what would make you really wanna play like some of the regular sort of stuff. You know, there's plenty of NFL players who basically like I'm sitting out for four weeks season. 'cause that's my matters. And I it's a little bit surprises me that he isn't more like that that's kind of probably a little bit. Like Phil saying like, what is the point of me playing the players other than like the pressure internally from the tour to say you need to play our biggest event like it's Phil Saint I don't wanna like developing dumb bad habits, like, you know, before I go to Gaza because that's what really matters to me. I've won the players. It's not gonna do anything for my legacy. Why would I wanna do this again and screw myself up in some way, it might if it gets shifted to a major which we're gonna? To get to here. What do we what do we kind of feel about where this event stands in the game? I don't know in general. It's a conversation. Every year of like, you know, do do enough player show up to support this to support. Mr palmer. Has anything changed in the way, you view it over the last few years, not really I think that it's still you know, a sort of? I event held in high regard all that kind of like what tier is this that? And how important is like, oh, that's kind of like a made up thing in our heads. Right. Does it really matter? You know as long as the event still exists. You know, it's it's not a WGC. It's not a major. It's not in a playoff of aunt that all these categories. Now that were shuffling this stuff into really matter. Like if it's not seen as quite the having this sort of prestige that it wanted wanted. I dunno winning the winning. It is a big deal. The purse is big deal. And it's a hard course to win. It's not like any sort of, you know, knucklehead can come out here and just steal one. So I think I think I'm okay with where it is. I mean, people still I do think a little bit that it's hard maybe four our generation of Goffin's to really grasp just how important Palmer was to like the building of the actual PJ tour like the sort of barnstorming of America that these guys did basically to kind of, you know, build up sponsors, why the reason why all these ornaments exists in why they're all, you know, actually, like, nonprofits. So that they can sort of funnel money in a different way. Like you can kinda. Oughta at into Palmer in the kind of love of of corporate America of him in why the tour exist the way it does. And so I think it's important for if you're someone who makes shit ton of money on the tour to understand that Palmer was a huge part of your ability to live a really good life. And I often wish in covering NFL that the NFL payers had a greater appreciation for the guys who, you know, had to work construction the offseason so that they could, you know, still like make living football players, and they've formed unions that were able to sort of get clicked bargain be part of it in. That's you know, you ought to maybe throw some money in for their healthcare and long run. So it's the same kind of thing if you value your standard of living now, you ought to pay some Amish to the people who made it possible in the past how many two questions here how many misters are there in the game of golf, and how many also are currently playing in this. Generation but haven't gotten old enough yet. They'll be called Mr. oh my gosh. I guess tiger gonna go by Mr. woods in his later years. No way. Imagine like what are people really going to show up to like a Roy's kid's gonna show up to rid of. It'd be like Mr. woods here. Really gracious hosts. I really hope it could still break Jack's record in all sixty one. But you never know. mR, Mickelson will will never be a Mr. I think I see that. Who's the first we were talking about this today a little bit and kill house who was the first Mr. of golf. Jones. I think I think it's probably nobody was like, Mr Thomas, and there was a reason why there's a young old names. But can can euros be misters. There seems like more, sir. Yeah. People go up if it followed or like, sir, Nick. Oh, yeah. I'm pretty sure they do. Absolutely. Except for unless you're the drunk is that we saw in two at the two thousand six memorial. Right. A putting green just yelling fouled. Ow. How come over here? The twist being it was actually Nick Price. That was putting. Price dude. I'm Nick Price. Like, I'm not. In journalism, let you shouldn't address like a coach as a coach like you should just say their name like so when I cover the ravens ISIS, just say, hey, John John Harbaugh. Jeff sack cause any slip up sometimes because coaches just serve a natural thing. But like, it gives them sort of an elevated sense of power that if you're trying to look at it from perspective of like, hey, your your job. I have mine where central equals than you're seeing that power mealy by saying coach, you know, because he's not my coach, whatever. And so I don't know the Gulf has sort of a weird like elevated like gentlemen leanness to sin. So I certainly I don't think I would go. Hey, jack. You know, if I saw Technic was so you're saying if Jack ever comes on this podcast, I could greet him with yoj money. What's I'll I crushed? Here. I am. That's good. I laid up a lot during my career, and I really thought paid off dividends differently. So, you know, so I have the majors that I knew he had the ones handed. Could you do all the all of the big three that's two out of three of the of the big three that she got never even thought about how to do. Arnold palmer. I'm not gonna make you do that on the spot one last thing hill and kind of transitions into the next topic. I wanted to discuss, but I think they got a pretty raw deal out of the new schedule all these kind of crammed events in that regard one. This is kind of has that elevated status. It's got the three year exemption on towards a two. It's got the money. He's got the same kind of status as the memorial. Does. Isn't it kind of a dick move to be showing guys warming up and arriving TPC during the Sunday of an actual golf tournament and actual event a hundred percent like what who cares like, I really I gotta see like who is it that they were showing some absurd of inquiry. We were texting like who like I care about somebody going to their warm up routine on the range of sawgrass. It's like. I can't it's. So unbelievably force. Imagine imagine caring about the players arriving at TPC. I honestly wouldn't watch like footage of them arriving to Augusta. Why the hell would I actually care about them arriving TPC? And like, I know again, this sounds like a dumb thing to to focus on her care about. But like people dedicated resources time money, all that goes into setting up video on the all the reasons that people say so much can happen with the broadcast like think about this is what they're willing to do to send. I know. It's a home game. Believe sending camera crews out there to you got to pay these people to do that in pay to run the equipment in submit all these transmissions for this for it's not even turn it. We get the hell is going on here. Come the driving down the vita boulevard pulling in past the fountains. There's a Chili's Jacksonville onto the left. Some of the players will have a meal throughout the week. Majestic site is like how many times have you seen them pulled down PGA tour boulevard just like magnolia lane. I know we're going to like, I know it's fun to make fun of the players get it because it is a really great tournament. I'm looking forward to going this week, and I it, but like I'm glad it's back in March. But all my God. I just this. This being jammed down your throat is again, it's so Representative everything we talk about and how the hardcore Gulf in which is most listeners this podcast are just so ostracized by absolately everything and just needed to be spoon fed everything. And like again, we kind of touched on it. But no mentions of the masters at all on the telecast today with which is without one singled out directive from the tour, and you might say that doesn't matter and it might actually not. But it's not how anyone in the real world talks. And that just means you're getting spoon fed like we all get excited about the masters no-one truly gets excited for the players other than the tour like I'm looking forward to it. But I'm not truly excited about it. I just don't maybe this is why people go to. School for marketing, and they figure out how to do the stuff. Maybe this is why like some of it's still forced is because you can't learn this kinda shit in school. Like, you can't make something like happen. It happens organically, if it hasn't if the players hasn't become you know, what you both want it to be by. Now, it's probably not going to happen. It's just you can't keep sort of pretending like, oh, you know, we're sort of we're not really trying to make major while. You're hiring an orchestra to have its own same song and your sneak feed into the graphics. It'd be like have like is on the golf channel being like, well, you know, this is just a really great lead into the five majors. You know? There are not five major. It's what what what did you make of the of the theme song and the the rollout? First of all, we can definitely declare that the the old joke of oh my God is that so and so's music that's officially dead because the players Twitter account. You says. And that was one of my favorite goes to two. It's two years old. But I at this Fisher has to go into retirement. I well, eventually either, you know, live long enough to hero or live long to see year old jokes turns back at you by inferior comedians. I can't decide if it was brilliant. Because now they're going to they're clearly going to jam this theme song down our throats. I mean, what are the reason? Would you have for rolling it out and everything they've done for it? But now, I do actually notice that the song. Now when the when they first of all every twenty minutes for commercials and today's broadcast, but yeah, I can't wait to see how much they're going to they might. Instead of like, you know, the announcers usually talking over player caddy combos, they might play the theme song over some of the conversations on the grounds. We. I mean, which that cost it had hiring those like musicians had to cost thousand dollars. Like, you're telling me that that. Yeah. I mean, it's it's yeah. It is. But like that is a kind of a normal thing to do. Right. I mean like every kind of major Sunday night. Football's got a theme. Like, I'm sure a lot of money goes into that. I actually don't have that much of a problem with it. It's just the fact that it's like here. Here's here's what it is here. Instead of it just being like, again, it's very Representative tournament said of just letting it be what it is. And just playing the theme song for it. It's like all right. Let's but again, I also feel like it's working. But I think it's working because we're talking about it. And now, we're gonna notice it. So all right. So what the hell is going on with all of this major stuff, you touched on it. Just now I didn't even wanna give credence to it. Because I feel like it's like the almost in my lifetime. Like, one of the oldest Gulf debates ever is the players the next major, right? How is this gaining steam? How is this like an is this an actual thing? Are we are we seriously talking about this? I don't know my feeling is like if if we do want to have a discussion about this fine. But there's no like grand. Father in old major without one single doubt. If you say to like, if if my hand got on the on the mic on Monday, and it was like we've decided that this is a major divas field Gulf, and we will consider major going forth. It's gets a ten year exemption on tour, blah, blah. Then like what would there be to stop him? First of all like the majors of made up thing. Anyway, governing body that no you're wrong. So that would be such a power move on. And if he did it, but like like, I don't know. Like, there's no like saying, well, then Ricky has a major now. No it starts now. Like, that's what you have to do in that sense. There's no going back and saying we'll Jack now's three more Tigers to more like. Nope. Like it starts now. I get some point the US Amador was no longer a major. And so like, we take Bobby Jones's away. We just said like going forward, you don't get counts for major this. But at the time that was a major. So you get credit? Bobby Jones gets to keep the British amateur. The US amateur as part of his major total. So that's where that's where I think this debate is a little bit silly Craig perks as a major, no dummy, not fucking major. Greg. What about Fred Funk? Are you kidding me? All right. Fred get half a major. We dig it. A question for Brad Burleigh said is there a statute of limitations? Can we go back a certain amount of years to give people majors for it? I think the burden on Brooks Kapka has never been heavier than it is this week. We will know whether or not it's a major if he decides to try this week. Well, all do get really pissed off about his daytime. Or whatever the known interviews all sudden is gonna totally like show up on Sunday win this major if an hell Cabrera shows up in wins. This thing done deal, j you can have your major. It's all yours. All right. It is a it is the fifth major. It could come for two majors for all. I care if that's the case. I still think I really like it would be such a power move. If if like tiger was like why consider as a major? So I there for fifteen because you know, that it was the ignite this huge debate of all these people would be like Tigers. Right. It does count as a major the field. Is we Nicolas says so tiger has fifteen majors. Now like the major drought is over. And what would it be to stop him who'd be like, no one to appeal to the sports writers are the ones who made this shit up. Anyway. So if tiger wants to call me up and be like, Kevin you support me if I say the players major. Give me round of blue Jag national. We do that. Who says the media's been compromised in this era? Tiger is the one guy that I could shift it. But like this is this is taking like embrace debate. Just too far. I feel like it's just debate the sake of of debating it, and I get that. It's a really strong field. And it's an event that players do take more seriously than a regular PGA tour stop. But man, I just I don't mean to be commotion about it. But like I like, my Major's the way they are. And I get that the majors have changed over history, and I'm not like the most versed in why they've changed. But correct me if I'm wrong, the reasonings for the seeming Lee reasons for why it changes is because of true different eras in golf post World War Two is a different era in the game of golf and the PGA, and I don't get another full history in the BJ between going match play stroke play and all that. But this doesn't feel like a new era of Gulf like a or a reason we're at a stopping point of like, oh, we have to make a fifth major Elsa games going to die. I don't know. What that really does. So I agree. It's kind of arbitrary what what's a major and what's not. And but like, I don't see a reason to change that. I just like that for six years, whatever it's been since the bashers started in thirty five or thirty four whatever. So, you know, I guess it's like seventy years that that you get four chances every year then and that's it. And if you throw a fifth into that like, I think it sort of it waters down a little bit to me like I want. I want there to be four chances. There's four chances in tennis. There's for chances in golf if you go blank in a year. Then you gotta wait the whole county ear to to come back. And that's what makes a master's so exciting. So fun is that we've been sitting around waiting since the last major for eight months in now like that's why mashes hardest wanting to get in the sort of impregnable quadrilateral as they say that you have to think about it for the longest time. You got two weeks between the US open in the British. And no one cares. Whether PJ, but you have to think. The masters for eight months if you don't win it. And that's why I want to. That's why want say where it is. That's a really good point. And no one loves like, a really strong flex more than Gusta does like could what could that could they flex on the tour and be like, you're you're not doing that. Like, what could they threaten them with or what would the I'm just curious like how that would work? But I think they would you know, you're not doing this. But how could they actually stop them kind of like the political primaries where like New Hampshire in Iowa, basically say we're the first primaries, you think you're going to move a primary out of us your debt roll out. We'll move it up a year if we have. Masters is now contested in January would do you make of fills weird flex of going to the event before deciding if he's actually gonna play going to court today to see if he's actually going to play it. I think this is an example Phil being kind of like bored with life and just needing to create drama to keep himself interested. You know, they'll probably like some helicopter thing. You know? He's got it. Fly from this to that. And you know, Kenny his he's got a corporate commitment on Tuesday. So he's the fly helicopter in gets his time something like he just needs that little edge. It's like the gambler whose board and he's like all right? Let's you know, it's the guys and dolls thing. Let's bet on cockroaches racing because there's horse racing isn't as fun anymore. So that's the flip villas like maybe I'll play. And then if he by some like Hooker crooked he wins. He's like, oh, yeah. Like, I just I really wasn't sure I was gonna play here wasn't really feeling it. And then all sudden thinks but now it's like he's going to play and he probably won't do that. Well, because it's just not, of course, that fits him Lee. Well, he's he wants to skip it fine. Like, you know, sure the hundred and twenty six player who's on the list would love to be. There's like eighty reasons why the players isn't a major one of them is the fact that Phil might skip it. Did skip USO hills. But remember, they didn't some guy skip e to like that Scott's the PGA Lee Westwood give the PJ that's it's not like unheard of like thing. But it's you know, how you know. It's really not a major is. It was ninety five degrees last year. And he showed up in a long sleeved shirt just to flex his new sponsor and did not care about the call tournament at all. And you know, how you also also major that we keep getting emails confirming players for this event. It's like, okay, guys. We know they've Rena promo again going back to them kinda screwing over Bay Hill. They ran a promo for the players with tiger featured as the guy on the in. I mean, I know he's he's committed to the event and it hasn't withdrawn. But like he didn't play this week because of an injury like e could withdraw could technically withdraw from the players from everything we've heard he is gonna play. But like he signed for sure go you skip the bay Hiltermann. They're like promoting him for the next week. Just also made me I have no ties to Bay Hill. That would make me on this unreasonably upset, but it about. He must have winked whispered to them behind the scenes or something. I guess it would be pretty like enormous gaffe. If he was like, oh, yeah. Definitely not playing the players and they were just like all right, promote teicher. Anyway, we didn't we need this, man. I think the tour went full what's that guy's name from the fire fest documentary, Andy the the guy that was willing to. I think they went to her like what do we have to do to? It's happened. And I went in there fully prepared. So I know we're supposed to wait 'til after the players to start thinking about gusts which actually think is kind of fair, and I try to wait as long as possible. But today was actually the first that I really started to think of it. I don't know what that doesn't mean anything particular. But now it's starting to get into that timeframe where it's it's time to get your game figured out and Jordan speeds and playing this week, but he has had you know, literally zero good finishes leading into it. And I think is this the timeframe when it's time to stop asking the question. Like, should we be worried about somebody like if they're not playing well to this point, then we should be worried about them if they are playing well, then that's obviously a good sign. So this is getting that time period where it's time to start thinking about it. And so got a few Twitter questions for you. Brad Bachman is asking what is Gary Player. Think of Fitzpatrick's ability to read a putt while doing a plank and could Gary give his opinion on what could happen if cured deck ED's us to repertoire heading into Gusta. First of all, I'm video impressed that Matthew was able to fit in his putting routine in the midst of prepatory school. Because clearly is I think I played him as being about a six year at hogwash this year, and he's his fabulous young, man. But a not sure he shaves more than twice a week. Well. Well would happen if cured tried this at Augusta gold, I mean? First of all is the reason that they have a the the the heating system underneath the ground. So it says redux belly sweat gets on the greens could dry it out. Right. Clicking. Your belly? Oh, I was always expected you to to pull that one out. Gave him either. Well, speaking of the masters, Mr. player, do you have any comments about we heard a story recently about your son allegedly selling fake tickets to the masters last year? What do you have anything to say about that? Oh, sorry. I'm so glad you ass. I'm happy people should read the fine print the contract stated that was clearly a certain level of physical fitness required. How can you complain? You didn't get your masters experience when you to fat to fit in the false bottom of a large in we plan to drive through the seven hundred. Isn't when I first paid the British Cooper nece unders a slipped on the beach, the not before I had the heart of attention. How can you say you want to go to the masters, then see won't help dig a tunnel? From the basement of the public's across the street that goes under Beckman's road and leads to trap door and Clifford Robinson cut. It's a disgrace by young man provided all the ways to get in and people just come play into. What the hell just happened? What is the story about the alleged fake tickets? I guess his son like sold a bunch of like passes to the masters like, oh, I'm running this sort of essentially like fire festival, whatever that guy's name is Q selling tickets to like Knicks games. So this is like a similar kind of deals like gay player. Son, did like this. Hey, you get a weekend with you know, at the masters, and you get to be Gary Player and all this stuff. And then these people like showed up and Augusta and like gay player. Son was nowhere to be found. And like just kept their money. In in the lawsuit against him. And he got charged with a felony for the the thing. I didn't see anywhere where Gary commented on it. So I just took the liberty of making you heard it here. He's breaking must credit podcasts for the the first fiscal quote. I actually don't know the answer this. I don't know if you will either. But Kyle Jensen s why the broadcast doesn't ever touch on. It was a huge win for Molinari with new equipment in the bag and wish the broadcast would touch on. If it's compelling to the tournament, which it was this week as soon, it's like, you just you can't I it would just really muddy the waters, if you know as far as getting their names mentioned on the air if you could pay announcers to mention on the air and said, I is that a safe assumption. I actually don't know the technical rule or if they all have an agreement with each other not to do a do you have any insight on that? I bet that essentially like that the say NBC is wants to say like, look, if you want your name mentioned on Rugrats, you're gonna pay for that you're going to buy a commercial money because we're not gonna like get around. We have slipped say that you know, they were really like crowing about Calloway stuff, which are using. And like this this new stroke lab Potter. Scott. That's a two on whatever stroke lead putter. He made one hundred fifty foot putts. Whatever will say that. They were just talking about that like crazy entitled is like, wait a minute. Why are we paying like millions of dollars to have Scotty Cameron ads on this? If you're just talking about Kelly, putters, whatever we're just gonna basically like pay for system on our that money, and we're not giving any of that money to NBC because you know, that came be like Viagra ads or retirement commercials or like fucking workday software, whatever so, but, but if you're Jim Nance, and you would if you would like me to voice over your titles commercials. I could do that as well. Clearly, we get strong. Informal thing. But like, I, you know, obviously, it's like a guy it seems like there was some when a guy doesn't doesn't play. Well, with new they certainly talk about it. Right. Like, you know, when the guy makes us switch, and it's like a huge deal that they were like, oh, he's really haven't Trump adjusted in these new titles to hire these new Nike driver. And but yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's just because he's not like a marquee sort of player just being a foreigner and stuff that they're kind of weren't really gonna her pundits much. But just like it's a deal. Right. Yeah. I did forget to ask you had you did you listen to the new Rory mcilroy podcast. It did not. I I was unclear I if it was behind a paywall, and I there's only so many things I will pay pay. Well, I guess it's free. But. I I used to watch TRL allot in like high school, and it feel like Carson Daley seems like a good guy, but kind of grown out of that. I'm not really sure what he offers to the golfing world currents of expertise for interviewing Rory. But so so real me this. If you are creating something called Gulf pass, and you are the golf channel is your strategy to bring a bunch of Carson Daley fans into the game. Like is is is people craving are the Carson Daley fan craving so much more. Carson that they're going to pick up a new sport in tune into and pay for the content. I I don't I'm absolutely befuddled this golf getting in its way. Again, I listen to it. And I think ROY is as brilliant as ever, and I just want to hear him talk. And I could do it every week and every month wherever they're going to do it. And honestly, I I- Carson Daley might be getting paid per interruption. Because it was just like people have to make the joke of people getting paid by the word and it was by interruption. And as as a podcast hosts, drives me absolutely nuts and its first episode and people, you know. That is I wouldn't want to be judged on our first episode. And you know, there's a lot of she has revolving. But I'm just like man this is. For twenty years though, like interviewing over twenty years. This is not like this is the first Tango in the game. And I'm like, oh, no it was it was quite frustrating to me. And then if that's kind of ROY talked about that being like his use his way he's gonna do media now. And I'm like, man, I hope that's just disappointing. You know, it's it's especially if a lot of that stuff is going to be behind a paywall. I don't really still quite understand. How the podcast is going to work, but the people. What makes me mad at us? Like, roy. You've got more money than could ever spend a lifetime ever. So someone is convinced him in the sense. Like, hey, you should do this podcast Carson Daley because we could sell it. We could get you know, you can make more million dollars with golf channels part of this whatever in or as part of the go. Okay. Yeah. Sure. I guess I don't know. What is another ten million dollars to me? You know? Maybe maybe it's the sense of like he would rather just control the content in the sense of like, well, I don't want to be asked any question that I'm uncomfortable with and so we're going to have these kind of things where it's essentially like sponsored content for great. But that's fine. I guess, but it just it's a bummer to me because Certa robs the game of it's, you know, one of its most authentic voices. And I'm sure someone out there is going to say, oh, you're just mad because you're not gonna do the puck us anymore. Like what I don't know that that's true. We might. But I'm about heard about that. But. You're the one that told him not to talk to the media head of Augusta. So I don't know what you're getting on there. But he did he did touch on it how the appeal of doing things on a podcast, which I think is why he's done this podcast in the past and done others. While a lot of players continue to do it. It's like people hear the conversation. The here the context, and it's not like headlines being made about what happened and things kind of taken out of context and made people choosing twenty percent of what he said to make it sound more peeling. I totally subscribe to that. And like if he had honestly if he had his own podcast. And there was somebody there that just like facilitated the conversation. I listen to it the first thing I would download so it's just a little bit. I it again, it harps back to just what is what is Representative of golf problems in general of like trying to be something. It's not. I mean, we I just can't imagine like this Tyrrell more people into it because Carson Daly's co hosting it. But it's such a marketing scam. It's someone who saying this'll bring you. Your listeners into whatever in. It's like though, like even like if Nile horn was posting the podcast that would make more sense. If from a perspective of like, we're trying to bring new listeners, whatever 'cause all the new direction people would like dangled might download it for like, just a juice views. Is it all action? Direction. I said is new direction. So I thought it was all direction you said new. I don't like it with seat. Maybe this would make a new direction fan. I shock. I actually do agree with you like, they're buddies. And that would be kind of more interesting than than like, I don't know if they had a previous relationship again, it might improve. But I don't know if it goes behind paywall at some point or whatnot, but kind of tough spot it's hard to critique other podcasts kind of kind of you can no matter what you're gonna come off a little bit, butthurt. But I think it he's a brilliant guy. Listen to I really enjoyed listening to him on that episode. I was getting very very frustrated by it. So couple of last couple shout out tweets. We saw Bryan Evanston. How can NBC Gulf channel? Give Fitzpatrick credit for being northwestern guy on their college leaderboard. He was there for a false semester. Those I just maybe laugh and joke today on Twitter like is possible that Bryson played rounds longer than Gerald was at. This connection, but he has western hey, Mayer it like you baby that was what you felt was really like great food or timer life. But like, I always tease my one of my friends is the gopher push coach Rune about how like covers Fitzpatrick. Like a local like what like who? What you call goes. Like, oh, I feel really connected. And then Tom Hobbes said do you as I actually Mark this? When do you still think the US will dominate the Ryder Cup in the coming years? I was just picking that was picking one of the the mini beauts got so dominate it in America dominant, whistling straights. When there's you know. I don't know the pet the rough all the way out in the ocean. I think it might be time to pump the brakes a bit on the Cam champ for for Radyr Cup captaincies. That was ugly. So he flew a little bit closer to the sun. Yeah. All right. Thanks for joining on a Sunday night. And we always predate your insights and thanks to thanks for making me laugh, so hard. I sweat sweated. A little bit. Well, if there's a sub air. Clean up your sled. And the on that KB. Thanks, always mad. Cheers. Fetal right club today. That's better than most. About in better than most. Expecting thing.

Tigers ROY Kevin van Valkenburgh golf Rory Fitzpatrick Twitter Augusta patrick Francesco Molinari Arnold palmer Chris greens Gary Player Phil Saint US Bay Hill Bobby Jones Matthew NFL NBA Lee Westwood Bay Hill
The Readjusters

Transition Virginia

1:09:31 hr | 5 months ago

The Readjusters

"How are the readjust remember today? They're not I mean they they sort of vanish. On this episode of Transition Virginia, it represents the promise and the tragedy of reconstruction. The Re adjusters with Paul Lebanon their successes thumb ways really invigorated their rival and delegate Schuyler van Valkenburgh. Your democracy is only as the as the people who participate in join us for a deep dive into a forgotten moment in history when blacks and whites formed progressive coalition in the eighteen eighties all that and so much more on this episode of Transition Virginia. All Welcome to Transition Virginia. The podcast they usually examines transition of power from Republican to. Democrat. Although today we're going to do something a little different. We're GONNA get in our time machine and go back to the eighties the eighteen eighties I'm. And I'm Thomas Bowman Today on the pod. We're going to take a break from examining the transition from Republican to Democrat and look at transition from Bourbon to readjusted. Wait Wait Thomas Thomas did you say Bourbon, yeah but calm down at today Oh. All right. All right to help us navigate through the transition from Bourbon Democrat, to the by racial and radically progressive readjusted coalition. We have an amazing panel. Paul eleven good is the former president of the Virginia Historical Society. He's currently president of the George C Marshall Foundation doctor. Levin. Good. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation and we're also joined by delegates. Schuyler van Valkenburgh a Democrat from Henrico as a member of the House of delegates. He witnessed the transition of power from Republican to. Democrat but delegates. Van. Valkenburgh isn't just a garden variety politico. He's also civics teacher at Glen Allen High School and he's about to take us to school delegate Van Valkenburgh. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me for having the on and thank you for doing this topic. I think it's it's a really interesting Virginia history. It is a really interesting topic admittedly a bit. Quirky but let's jump right into it. One of the reasons that the struck says worth talking about thinking about is when the Democrats took power recently, there was a lot of talk about as being the most Progressive General Assembly in the history of Virginia to which I responded. Wait a second. What about the eighteen? Eighty s there was this group called the readjust yours that had. Increases. For Public Education that repealed the poll tax that increased taxes on corporations that increase funding for state asylums that had money for higher education that abolished the whipping post I mean, this is a by eighteen eighties standards extremely progressive, even radical Doctor Levin. Good. I wouldn't start by setting the scene here. So when the readjusts are formed and take power in the General Assembly in. Seventy nine give us the setting here. So this is like we're not even talking about reconstruction anymore. Reconstruction is like nine years past give us a window of what was going on in the late eighteen seventies that allowed this to happen. Well, I guess you're right to point out that reconstruction was over ended in Virginia and eighteen seventy when Virginia was readmitted to the. Union. But there was kind of this interim period questions were being determined as to who was going to be allowed to hold power. you it enfranchised the state, African American population. There were African Americans winning local offices. So the political social kind of setting was was really kind of a bit in flux. You know when you had some politicians and figures from the prewar Arrow returning and trying to get back into power and you had new voices being heard. So it was just a lot of tumble at the time and it created I think this unique situation in Virginia history where there was this. Void and the void in some ways was really filled by as you mentioned, the adjuster what comes to be called a readjust her party, and also it is important to point out that one of you know the key debate in this entire period is a financial debate. The the Commonwealth's finances are really hamstrung by the issue of prewar debt which sounds really boring except this is we're talking about more than probably half of the State's budget is being paid in interest payments. For the debt that it incurred. In. The antebellum period mainly building things like roads and railroads and canals, all sorts of internal improvements which. I'm sure. Delegates. Van. Valkenburgh, you know talks to students about sometimes in that in that pre war era that era of improvements the Virginia had invested in these things borrowed money to do it. And then of course, there most of them are destroyed by the civil war, and now they're left trying to figure out how they're going to pay this massive debt this in these interest payments and do everything else they need to do. And this question really lingers and hangs over the head of all this politics. We're going to get to the legacy later on in the podcast but delegate van. Valkenburgh. I'm GonNa sort of hinted that right now at the top of the show, which is how we think about the readjust now in the modern world, like what is their legacy? How do we think about this time period today? Yeah, that's a good question and I think there's there's two things that I think we should address when we talk about it I think. One thing we have to note is that the reason why they were even possible is kind of the structure that allowed them to come into power. In. So when you look back kind of the history of of Virginia politics, you look back at the history of Virginia Governance we we've had many constitutions you had the constitution seventeen, seventy, six constitution of eighteen, thirty, the constitution, eighteen, fifty one, and it's really only with the constitution of eighteen sixty nine which provided African Americans the right to vote which I did not have a poll tax was added. It was done by the readjusting now, but it was only within the context of that of that constitution that this moment could even rise and I think that speaks to how important it is to have a constitution that facilitates. Democratic participation whether that's in the vote or how you draw the lines. You Know Rep Tartar talks about the Great Gerrymander of eighteen thirty, which was basically baking into our constitution, the legislative power for the eastern part of the state, and what that did was give slave owners the power in Virginia all the way through until eighteen, eighteen, sixty, four in the nineteen, sixty, nine with the kind of postwar constitutions I? Think. That's one thing that's really important to know is how the fundamentals help lead to different policies in different politics, and then the second thing is it is an interesting moment is an interesting moment about what matters to people. Coming out of this, the debt was the important thing. There's this huge conversation around school debt. So the Eighteen seventy eight, the general MB passes a school appropriations bill and the Governor Vetos it. When you look back at the language of his veto and why he vetoed it is incredibly inflammatory but it's basically talking about we're GONNA pay off this debt and schools is optional thing. And then that kind of folds in that leads to Mahone the confederate general turned egalitarian who calls a conference and says, you know this conferences for anybody who wants to come in makes kind of explicit call to people from both races and out of that. You could this coalition that exists in almost you know immediately after once they're successful, the rug is kind of pulled out from under them because the debt is no longer the important thing in race kind of respect to the forefront, and so I think it speaks to. The contingency of politics as well and how coalitions will change, and you know how you guys talk about the transition from Republican to Democratic power and how maybe this General Assembly. Assembly was the most progressive in history and maybe it was. But you know what that means in two years is going to be a lot different because some of these issues have now been taken off the table or have been or maybe have been taken off the table on what does that mean for politics in two thousand and twenty, two to twenty four, right So I think. The lesson is both structural but also the kind of day today politics in what issues drive people in eighteen seventy, eight poor white folks poor black folks were incredibly concerned about schools in the debt issue didn't play. five years later. Everybody agreed that the readjusts did the right thing debt or seemingly right. They put it to bed in the issue became about race again. and. So I think those are two kind of interesting lessons. And I think what? Telling you know Michael Getting back to your question. There is how are the readjusts remembered today? We'll. They're not. I mean they they sort of vanish there this little weird interim period between reconstruction and you know the reemergence of the Democratic Party and the the you know essentially the the machine democratic politics that dominate Virginia from then you know the eighteen ninety s until the nineteen. Well apparently to the civil rights movement, and probably you could argue at least until the eighties. So it really is whether it is conscious and deliberate or not the readjust just vanish. No I mean that's that's a really interesting point. In fact, that's one of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast is because everything that we're about to talk about actually challenges the narrative that have in their head about how what happened in the eighteen hundreds you know like. I think in the popular mind it's okay. The civil war happened the confederacy was vanquished but almost immediately white supremacist to power and started you know a government and so they just sort of skip over this brief but radical period of time when black people had power and held political office and were part of a coalition that did incredibly progressive things and got rid of the tax and did criminal justice reform it had mental health reform reactor education. and. I mean there's all this. So it's really it challenges the narrative that people have in their head because it just doesn't make sense with what people think that they know about history. So doctor, Levin? Good. Let's talk about language a little bit. So I think a lot of our listeners are going to say readjusted what the heck is a readjustment and then Bourbon. Made this at the script at the top of the show made this joke about Bourbon like what explained to us the playing field in eighteen seventy nine what is a bourbon and what exactly is a rid or what do they want to readjust While the readjusting are taking their name from their attitude toward Virginia's public debt, and this notion that they thought that the debt that they were saddled with was gonNA cripple the state, make it unable to fulfill its promises about public education and all sorts of other things and so there You know there's sort of reason they're proximate reason for being is to readjust that debt to repudiate part of it to adjust the interest rate downwards. Let me ask a question about that. So the debt is huge. This is pre war debt and war dead and so what was The debate like if you want if you supported paying off the debt who were you and why what was your motivation if you did not want to support paying off the debt? Who what kind of group were you associated with them? What was the motivation they're sort of what's the debate about paying off the debt versus not paying off the debt? Yeah. I. Think over I mean maybe overly simplistically but those who wanted to the funders as they called themselves they wanted to fully fund the debt were more the business class, the affluent the the the wealthy elite. Bargains the verbs which comes from the Libor Bowl, the European royal elite of sort of idea of of what the Bourbon, not not the not the whiskey variety comes from. So that's Kinda that that class of people the readjusting as as Schuyler just mentioned, were you know this kind of coalition of poor and working class whites and blacks You know it's a some others thrown in like William Mahone who will talk about? I'm sure was a strange character in quite quite interesting. and. And so this notion that what they what they wanted to be able to do was fulfilled the promise of. All the things you mentioned, public education You know higher education, all of these things that were to benefit. A wider range of Virginians and if you're pay more than half of your your in your state budget every year paying more than half toward this interest it was you're not going to allow you to do that. So he's going to continue to benefit the the funders. You know. They really had a couple of motivation for people who wanted to pay the debt in full. You know one they kept talking about a matter of honor its honor to pay the debt, we need to fulfil our state honor. which you know it sounds good I think. But let's also face fact they were also worried that if the debt was repudiated, it would make Virginia kind of a pariah among moneyed interests who might invest in Virginia again. So there was worry that if he repudiated the debt, you drive investment away. And I think that that those two things both the honor of paying that debt in some ways and the the business ramifications we're driving, we're driving them. and I would also add in there too that you have to remember that in Virginia and in much of the south. This kind of concept that the everyday person should be able to vote or the everyday person should have access to education. Was not kind of baked into the populace the funders you know when you look back to the eighteen, seventy eight veto message governor holiday he's a, he's basically saying look we have education for the people who need it and they can go and get it. We don't need to fund education for All these folks and so it's not just. funding the debt although it certainly I think is the is the main thing but there is also just an inherent belief that everyday people shouldn't have a say in elections in don't need public education and that that that lineage goes back to the founding fathers in and the kind of folks who were arguing in this kind of classical Republican philosophy that it was the free. Holders and the people who had leisure time who could get an education and in represent the kind of common good whether that's the common good of Virginia or the common good of the United States, and of course, that's butting up against the reality of Jacksonian. America it's butting up against the reality of the reconstruction amendments and it's kind of you've got these two worlds and I. Quote from one of the one of the African. American. Men who came to the convention that Mahone called to create a new party the readjusting. And he says, you know it's this freed slave he he's from new and he says as to the debt, we don't WANNA pay a cent of it. We think we paid our share of it by our long years of servitude. You'd think it kind of that argument and you think that language of and it's it's it's it's true when it's fascinating horrifying though I have a question. How does a biracial political coalition? Actually a whole political party in Virginia, which is spires to break the wealth and power of privilege. Come to be led by a former confederate general. Yeah that's a great. That's a great question Here's where maybe a opportunity to talk about William Mahone. Who you know really becomes the figurehead of the party he he's. He as you mentioned I mean he is a A. Say. Confederate, general. He's actually involved in one of the more horrific events. perpetrated by the confederacy in eighteen, sixty, four at Petersburg if you've ever visited the battlefield and seeing the crater that was created Union Union miners. Dug under the confederate lines and blew up. try to create a gap in the line and what ended up happening was A. as. Union troops poured into that gap. They found that actually putting themselves into rather a gap really into a pit crater where they were sitting ducks and a lot of African American troops were involved in that and were singled out to be massacred by among other officers involved when Mahone. So this is a guy with a really. I mean, Bizarro back story if you were picking the leader of a biracial coalition coalition which I do think lend some credence. To the detractors who say he was really looking at this as a matter of political expediency more than anything else he had been. He'd been a Democrat he came out of the the war A. Member, what they call the Conservative Party conservative faction, which were mainly prewar Democrats and you know I think he found you know he ran for he ran for. Governor and lost and I think he found this was a different a different route to political power I. Think MOANS. Commitment to racial equality needs to be held in a great deal of question Any certainly saw this as an opportunity. Now, I don't maybe not being completely fair to him, but he you certainly have to at least. Afgha- that question and one of the interesting things about Mahone I heard this from someone a few years ago you know. Mahoney. There's never been a great biography of Mahone. and which would also lend us may be some some aid in deciding why did he do this? And the reason Friday the most prosaic reason I've ever heard he has a massive collection of papers that he left to posterity. There are Duke University, his handwriting is so bad. But the people have people have tried to go in the papers. To do a biography of that's fascinating character and they've given up because they can't deter decipher handwriting saw his motivations are lost. In some way just because the man had appalling penmanship but. But let's mind-blowing if you stop and think about it like it. had better penmanship how much more we would know about the eighteen hundreds in Virginia but I didn't mean interrupt you I think it's Fun I would have to You know what I think what's interesting is he comes about in a moment and I think we should be cynical about the reasons why he did what he did but I also think it's interesting right? You'RE A he's he's a confederate general he was in the Conservative Party. And he splits off on this readjustment issue in know there's two ways politicians can go in this moment, and one is to kind of fully embrace the eighteen, sixty nine constitution voting rights for all and to try to create a coalition and the other path. is to try to you know create amendment poll tax, which some folks did and to try to suppress the vote which you know after Mahone other white folks. Do you know they decide not to try to amend the constitution, but you have to famous laws from eighteen, eighty, four and eighteen, ninety four, which essentially disenfranchised the entire African American community by creating these local electoral board's the Democrats could control which kind of become the foundation for the bird machine. And he doesn't do that and I think if we're going to give him credit, we give them credit there, which is a in a moment where he could try to weaponize the constitution of the General Assembly as a form of suppressing the African American vote. Instead when he dies in, you go to those papers you can find a list of black pastors that he frequently corresponded with because he was engaging in interracial alliances, and so I think we should be cynical about his his reasoning. But at the end of the day, he ended up embracing a more FR in franchise any ended up. Communicating and being in touch with in in helping patronage for the black community and I think that's a it's a really interesting story because so many people in the south didn't do that. Yes. So the sky full of contradictions, confederate general who later becomes a railroad president he was president of a railroad and that's actually how he got involved in politics because he was trying to help himself financially and then decides in eighteen seventy nine to found a new political party. This is another really in my mind really bizarre part of this is the timeline how quickly all of this comes together. So Eighteen, seventy, nine, he has this convention that you mentioned. He forms the readjustment party the same year they take control the General, assembly they had fifty six seats in the House fifty, six, hundred seats they had twenty four seats in the Senate is twenty, four out of forty seats. So that's pretty decisive. Win For having formed the party that year. Eighteen seventy, nine, they take control the General, assembly eighteen, eighty, one, they elect a governor and then in eighteen eighty, two, they win six of the ten seats in Congress, House seats in the Congress. So in the course of just three years, the readjustments capture the General Assembly the governor's office both seats in the US Senate and a majority of the House seats Doctor Levin Good How did that happen? Well, yea. You catagor- you're sort of show the the the meteoric rise. Of course, there's unequally meteoric descent I. mean it it it comes and it goes very very quickly But I go back to what I said to begin with which was there was really this. Kind of strange period after Virginia's readmitted where the parties are still figuring themselves out there. There's a foothold of Republican is in especially in the western part of the state you know in the in the mountains and valley part of Virginia, you have these free blacks you have A. You have a really unsettled political situation which I think allows for that rise to come. So quickly because you don't have you know you didn't return to classic. So dual party you know vying for vying for control or single party control the way you did prewar week party went away and prewar Virginia. The Democrats essentially had almost unrivalled electoral success. So you didn't really have the reestablishment of that. There's so a lot of flux which I think is why? You know why this party kind of is able to come about and come together. So quickly and I think clearly, it was also tapping into something that was of great interest to this. Biracial coalition of people who had long been. White and black kept out of the political process that they had not been allowed to vote and they had not had say economically. And socially in. Virginia Direction. In. That would add to that that I think one of the reasons why if you look at the coalition, the coalition is South Central and southeast African Americans the African American population was at its greatest flood of free. Slaves. And it was cities where debt in public schools are a more pressing issue in it was out in the West and if you if you look at the history of Antebellum America, it's the history of the West being disenfranchised is around the eighteen forties where the western part of the state becomes kind of dominant population force but the General Assembly reflects kinda slave owners in the. East power in an the eighteenth thirty in the eighteenth fifty constitutions it's important to note that those those constitutionally Gerrymander the General Assembly to give the power to the eastern part of the state. You know the eighteen thirty constitution broke Virginia into four regions and then gave each region a certain number of delegates senators in a skewed to the east and in eighteen fifty one rewrite. the Senate skewed to the East something like twenty to thirty seats and so you got a lot of folks in the West who prior to eighteen fifty one can't vote because of the freeholder requirements. who can't get anything past even through their representation because of the skew General Assembly, and then all of a sudden eighteen, sixty nine in that constitution kinda opens up all of that right and allows more people to vote. It allows for a little bit more regional less disparity. And it speaking issues that directly relate to this kind of east west divide and WHO's paying taxes in one of those taxes four remember the western part of the state has less slave owners has lessslaves has historically not liked the slave power and I think that creates a perfect storm But of course, right the flip phlebitis, it creates a perfect storm and then as soon as has gone, it just as quickly goes away 'cause right it's gone within three years. Well. Let's take a quick break because when we come back, we want to talk about what the readjust did during their time in power delegates Schuyler Been Valkenburg, Dr Paul Good. Thank you so much. We'll be right back. And we're back on transition. Virginia we're not talking about the transition of power from Republican to Democrat. Instead, we're talking about the transition of power from Bourbon Democrat conservative Democrat to readjust this almost today unknown coalition of Bi Racial Coalition of progressive politicians that did all kinds of things. So let's examine what they actually were able to accomplish when they were in power I, read this list at the top and it's Worth repeating because it's just sort of mind blowing. If you think about this is the eighteen eighties we're talking about the increased funding for public education they repealed the poll tax they increase taxes on corporations they increased funding for state asylums they increase money for higher education. They abolished the whipping post Doctor Levin Gun talk about the whipping post and the significance of abolishing the whipping post in the eighteen eighty S. Well if you think about public spectacle of criminal punishment, especially in times of slavery, the public whipping post is perhaps the most. Striking example of the the the levers of control that white elite bridge held over everyone else, and so you can imagine if you were living in a maybe a courthouse. Town, a county seat. Very. Often there was a public whipping post which could be used. By for crimes committed by slaves brought to the courthouse square and publicly flogged Mathur's who didn't want to do it. Themselves could actually pay local sheriff to do the same thing and it was public spectacle that was meant to reinforce the power structure very very clearly to everyone You know obviously whites could be flawed to, but it was mostly mostly punishment that was meant to keep an African American population in line. So I think for the African American. Ri. adjusters. Both symbolically, and in terms of you know modernizing the processes of criminal. Justice. Abolishing the whipping post was an incredibly powerful symbol and I'm and I think probably. You know they're they're the probably their influence in the party's platform. As. Much as anything else in that kind of a movement. I'm also kind of curious about the politics here of increasing taxes on corporation increasing taxes on railroads, and then spending that money on public education and higher. Delegate van Valkenburgh is this the beginning of? Liberals. No you know what I think this reflects as kind of thinking about this podcast in thinking about what they did I they would have explicitly said this, but it strikes me that This is an embodiment of a very cohesive kind of idea of what I would call the Frederick Douglass wing of the Republican Party at the time, which is the government being used in order to create kind of inequality of opportunity you. You can just see with the emphasis on education in. Wouldn't have called a K. twelve at the time. Right but K. twelve education a higher ran decrease in Virginia State University. It's all founded on a sense of equality is the first mental silence for African, Americans as well in you know once again, you go back to anti-american you look at the taxation in Virginia and one of the big complaints of folks in the western part of the state was that poor people were being taxed in slave owners weren't and I think what you're seeing is you're seeing a foundation of equality of opportunity of using the government to try to uplift all people and I'll go back to the kind of education speeches they gave If people I'm not GonNa read on. But if people go back and look at the eighteen, seventy, eight veto of governor holiday and then they go back and look at Forgetting the governor's name, the the readjusted Governor Han, Cameron Cameron. You go back and read his statement about the value of public education just in the space of like a year the difference in philosophy behind the to the two. Speeches I mean it's stunning and so I. I don't know the beginning of Texas than liberal but I do think it's the beginning of the idea that the government can be used as a force of good to create a kind of a quality of opportunity, which is, of course, a thread that you see in that certain segment of the Republican Party in the civil war and afterwards which you see in FDR, right which you see in Lyndon Johnson, the Great Society in which I think you could argue see in Virginia Democrats today. So you know I don't think it's a perfect comparison, but I do think you can see lineage. No let me I don't want to jump in with thin with a bit of cynicism here but let's also remember that someone like Mahone loses control of his railroad to outside interests I mean his railroad end up being held by receivership of people in Philadelphia and elsewhere, and so taxing outside companies making money in. Virginia. Is a real a popular thing to be able to propose. So you know you're you're. In some ways you're also That's the kind of something you see in modern politics as well. It's you know this this notion of well. Those who are getting those who are making money off of doing in Virginia or doing business wherever should also pay some price for the things we WanNa, do in Virginia. Info. Virginia's people. That's that's true and also note to that. If you actually look at their tax plan, taxes went down for the average Virginia taxpayer. So they decrease taxes on farmers, the decrease taxes on small businesses in increase taxes on the railroads. In in you know. So what happened is they raised substantially more revenue, but they actually brought down the tax bill for the average Virginian in those series of proposals which I think ties back to that senator or not I think probably both one method explicitly that they use to restore. Virginia's economic base was rebuilding infrastructure or at least that's what they campaigned on Doctor Levin. Good. What did they rebuild when they came to power? Their more notable developments readjust are credited with our things like education I don't I. Don't know that in their brief period, you can attribute an enormous amount of. You know infrastructure improvement and really where where things like railroads common make significant progress in Virginia comes because you do have so much out of state and foreign investment in railroads that penetrate the coalfields in South West Virginia, and so on. In in in that kind of late nineteenth early twentieth. Century period. I WanNa talk about the racial part of the story which is complicated and nuanced. So you had African American members of the General Assembly forming a COA who are mainly Republicans forming a coalition with this readjusting African American readjust as well, and so I mean, just UN's face the coalition itself was Biracial, but it's worth pointing out for the modern listener that they were not in favor of desegregating anything right so To, Doctor Levin good talk about this nuanced from our perspective. It's nuance racial element to this where they're a biracial coalition that actually was not for integration. I I. Don't. I. Don't know on the on the African American side, what the what the feeling was along these regards but only for white readjustments, this was you know black public schools in white public schools. blacking I mean Virginia. You mentioned Virginia State is founded. That's very deliberately at a normal school, a school to create black teachers who can teach in black school So this is not a moment of. You know coming together racially it's I. think it is more a recognition that there are shared interests of the poor and working classes of both races that need to be met that need to be satisfied, and now it was not an turning of that of that order of the races and remember you know this is not an enlightened period racially outside of Virginia I mean this is. Sometimes, it's easy easy to forget that the civil war. Did Not Create you know an instant sort of racial utopia anywhere in the United States it it settled the question of slavery, but it did not settle the question of equality even with the reconstruction acts clearly. So that's you know it it probably is not shouldn't surprise us that someone like William Mahone who was a slave owner before this war fight for the confederacy does not then become the figurehead of a party that is looking to overturn the racial order but is reflecting the reality that there is a block of black political power now and pent-up black desire for. Various services to be rendered by the government that needs to be acknowledged needs to be met, and it is a wing of this coalition who has the power in political clout to demand this of their white partners. and. Also one thing to add their to to kind of even nuances even more. If you look at Mahone himself, he campaigned against the only black Republican running for Congress in Virginia during this time period, and so there was kind of and we'll talk about this when we get to the downfall among the white readjusts tres, how far they were willing. To go it is very limited I think you even arguably at the time, but definitely by modern day comparisons and so I think that's important to note as well. Another aspect of this is that it is by many accounts the first political machine in Virginia which I know probably people have various perspectives on whether or not. It was machine Doctor Levin. Good. Mahone lead a political machine perhaps even you could say Virginia's first political machine. Well Certainly Mahone, recognized. the power of patronage and recognize that there's an awful lot of ground to be made as the leader of this party in the political patrons that he can go out of that leader. I mean I I guess I mean I mean. One, man's machine is another man's. System right I I. I don't know whether I would describe the readjustment machine. As the first machine in Virginia politics certainly, political patronage played a part in. Virginia politics going back to the colonial period. I it. It's doling out favours going out positions and sinecures has always gone on I think Mahone might have been a little more blatant about it. In some ways you know Mahone is in some ways he's a classic newsouth figure in that. If you if you study that period, you know he's a guy certainly on the come I mean he's all about. He's all about money. He's all about. Showing his own money and showing his power. He's not he's not doing it. Subtly you nothing there's nothing really subtle about him. So maybe in some ways, it's the first sort of evident machine or the first machine that doesn't try to in any way math what it's doing and as a precursor to the the Democratic Machine of of the twentieth century. So I guess in a way, it's the first machine, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't push that too far because it's kind of a the logical evolution I think of what of what had taken place but I would say that I don't I don't think it is because I think when you talk about political machines, people talk about entrenching their own power and while he did engage in behaviors that we would associate with a machine you know patronage in correspondence and all these other things did they're out of power so quickly, I actually think if you WanNa talk about the first machine, it's actually his railroad rival. John Barbara who who, kind of helps defeat the readjusting and creates the the kind of modern day. Well, the re constance, the Democratic Party and creates the machine that will lead to the bird machine. Barber campaign managers guy named Thomas Staples Martin who created the Martin machine that of course was by any standards. But you know just because they only held power for a brief period of time doesn't mean it wasn't a machine. It just wasn't a very successful machine at having longevity and part of that. Is something that starts leading toward their downfall, which is there central organizing principle? Was this thing about the debt where they're in disagreement with the other party because the party wants to pay off the debt at the expense of public education and so they campaign on readjusting the debt and not paying it off at the expense of public education? Well, guess what the other party says you don't let your right we shouldn't do that doctor. Levin. Good. The other side essentially folds says you're right right And and they do repudiate the debt by about a third. They reduced the interest rate by half. So they really do succeed in this and I think the Democrats. or their their opponents I think once this passes I think then the pretense of well, this is about honor and all this kind of stuff kind of can fade away and they recognize that this is actually freed whoever follows the readjusts free them up to. Do. A number of different things that they wouldn't have been able to do if they've been fully funding that debt, the way they had claimed they wanted to So yeah, I mean th they managed they managed to do it and I, think it's one of those things ca you know be careful what you what you wish for because I think they did create an environment for themselves where their reason for existing started to wane a little bit I mean when you're sort of almost a one issue for one primary issue party and that issue goes away to a degree then you know it is it is. Probably the best thing for your for your future success. If you can't redefine yourself, it's funny. The mention that because I'm thinking about the Brexit Party. So once brexit happens what uses the BREXIT party anymore. Yeah and one thing that's fascinating I did want to make sure that your listeners ended up realizing too is there's a little funny side piece of the debt, which is when all of this debt is incurred Virginia before the war included West Virginia the West Virginia breaks away during the course of the civil war and there's a long and contentious fight between Virginia and West Virginia as to what portion of that debt West Virginia should. Really. Be Responsible for because were railroads and canals West Virginia that were funded by this and so it actually I don't think it's till Nineteen fifteen or something that it's finally established what dollar amount West Virginia owes toward retiring this debt, which is just kind of a little side note that I thought. It just fascinated me at the time to think that you know they had to take it to the Supreme Court to finally figure this all out. So, delegate Van Valkenburgh, can you put all of these reforms in the context of what's happening nationally and the reason I asked that is because now just like then Virginia's politics often parallels national politics and a lot of ways. So what's going on during this time? Well I mean you're seeing the end of reconstruction you see the north, the northern population losing its will to. Its involvement in the south you see. An economic panic in the mid eighteen seventies that causes kind of a change in priorities. So you're seeing the Republican, party, that goes from the Party of Lincoln, kind of into the party of big business, and so the south is slowly getting its autonomy back in you're getting Kinda slow drip drip that will lead to Jim. Crow, and we were talking at the very beginning of this about how people just kind of think it's it's the civil war reconstruction Jeff. KROGH. But there's really this kind of drawn out period that's occurring. Where there are these kind of possibilities that pop up around a moment like the readjusts tres but as as it starts to settle down, you start to move into the. Start to the gilded age where big business the thing in in the south you start to slowly settle into Jim Crow. That's thirty year kind of evolution into Jim Crow if you look at Virginia specifically wants the readjusting our out. You know you start to slowly get the electoral law change stat disenfranchises African Americans, which you know the machine uses for about twenty years until they don't it's enough in the nineteen o two constitution where they kind of explicit goal is disenfranchise African Americans but you're actually disenfranchises almost everybody and so you know, I think Virginia, in many ways, it's Kinda story. We've been telling us this brief moment of hope where maybe something can happen in I. Think in Virginia happens a little bit more than another southern. States but as the realities of national politics, kind of moves away from the south, you know it's not about the southern issues anymore it's about big businesses of global trade. It's about immigration in the northeast in the late eighteen hundreds, the south is really allowed to kind of become its own place and there's a lot of you know you can look through the history you know the solid sow one party south south is different from the rest of the country and it's in this time period around the adjusters in Virginia after the adjusters where we really start to see that on truly happen and if I could add. Nationally. This is really. The between the end of reconstruction and the First Years of the twentieth century. This is really an incredibly. Tumultuous moment you know the the readjustment movement in Virginia is one example of poor people coming together the same happens in the Midwest. The People's Party the populist movement is a you know it's a farmer's movement thing. You know we're we're done being the pawns of big interest. We're going to stand up for the Yeoman farmer and there's actually some of that in the south is well and you've got labor unrest all across the country as working people say you know we're not going to sit there and just be dominated by management by big business. So there's It's in some ways the readjust your movement with his. On you know the poor and working classes. Is. A part of broad or moment that I think finally by the end of the nineteenth early twentieth century Kinda gets quashed down overall and you do move into what scholars mentioning sort of you know the hegemony of big business and the the sort of linkage of big business and government in a sort of a fairly tight way that really does make it difficult for popular movements to rise up like this again. But there is that period of a couple of decades where there seems to be. Maybe, something else that's going to the possible and I'd also eh to that the Virginia trajectory of disenfranchising African Americans disenfranchising poorer voters has a broader is a broader American narrative I'll go back to Frederick Douglass had this speech in the kind of reconstruction and post reconstruction world that he would give frequently called are on our composite nationality. And he was talking about. The words. He would use the things he was talking about sound a lot like what John Lewis was talking about right. You know who's in the news you know and the kind of message he had about a multiracial democracy of equality. And a positive nationality speech is it is kind of one of out of pessimism because what he's seeing as African Americans be disenfranchised in the south, but he's also seeing Asian Americans disenfranchised in the West in the speech talks about that, and if you look at the the late eighteen hundreds, you've got white southerners who are disenfranchising African American and doing it to a degree that's different everywhere else I wanna make sure we make that distinction but then you also have. In the West, you northeasterners who who are making claims magazines like the Atlantic to limit the vote against the immigrant population has they're not suitable to it. You the Mug won't reformers the government reformer who are. Are really restriction area on these issues, and so it's it is there is a broader kind of moment here happening at the end of the eighteen hundreds in some of our I truly restriction airy voting laws calm during this period where you see these kind of arbitrary voter registration laws where you see these arbitrary electoral board's and how they act. You know I'm from New, York originally, and you WanNa talk about a state that had awful laws in the late eighteen hundreds in some ways does still today go to New York where they put in place these absolutely disenfranchising laws to ensure that Catholics and Jews and eastern Europeans couldn't vote. Let's go and take a break. We are talking with Dr Paul Levin Good. The former president of the Virginia Historical Society and current president of the George C Marshall Foundation, and also our friend delegates. Schuyler van Valkenburgh from Henrico. And we're back on Transition Virginia Brunell going to talk about the fall of the readjustment. So this is a group that we talked about earlier had a meteoric rise to power eighteen, seventy nine. The party is founded in the early part of the year. By the election in November, they were able to gain a majority in both house of delegates and the Senate. They had fifty six out of the one hundred seats mouse twenty, four out of the forty seats and the Senate and the next election cycle and eighty one they kept the general assembly and elected their own Governor Governor Cameron, and then the. Next year and the congressional election they had six out of the ten house seats meanwhile, the General Assembly of course, at this time is picking the US senators. So they pick Mahone who went to the Senate and ran the political machine from his US Senate office and they also picked the other US senator. So they had both seeds of the US Senate. They had six out of ten house of representative seats. They had the house ability. They had the state Senate, they had the governor's office when that's all within three years and then it all falls apart doctor Levin. Good. What happens to the readjustments? It's a really good question. Michael I mean I think we've touched on a little bit of this before in that. I think they certainly achieved some of their goals and I don't know that they had. They had great vision for what the what was going to be next but I think they also their successes in some ways. Really invigorated their rivals, you know I think we were talking a little earlier scholar was talking about the. The constitution and looking at what the Constitution's tell us about certainly those who hold the levers of power and if you look at the kid, the next constitution of Virginia, which is one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, one. It is it in some ways almost reaction point by point to the adjusters in their there. And I think what? What really ends up happening is. As? We just talked about a little bit before the break. White Southerners get better at. Figuring out how the new landscape can be controlled to their advantage how the limits of federal intervention in state of matter, such as this, the degree to which local control can be reassumed. You know that that period that we had that we had talked about the kind of whatever you WANNA, call it between reconstruction and the. Solidifying of the of. White control over a place like Virginia you know comes it comes to an end. Not Evenly. But it comes to an end really in that time. As much as anything else because I think white southerners figure out knowing nothing's going to happen to us if we reassert this. Whether it's the the bargain that ends reconstruction whether it's you know the clear weariness of a national Republicans to deal with you know. How how much energy do they have to keep up with the energy of of of certainly what motivated reconstruction, which is to allow for African American voting and other rights, and I think that once they realize but they were not going to be there was not going to be interference long they became increasingly bold and aggressive about reverse course on this and you know in Virginia it it it doesn't Virginia's way is not to be quite as as in your face about it as some other southern states You know you're not just driving blocks away from the polls through you know night night riding and guys in hoods running around, but it takes effect. You know in some of the same in some, the effects are somewhat similar in that it does eventually reassert itself. When you see that you know African Americans working in cities in you know tobacco companies enrichment well suddenly when those tobacco company owners and management can reassert themselves and say you know. We really think this is how things need to be, and we really think if you're going exercise. your franchise. You may not have a place to work here. That's a form of control that begins to take place, and eventually it moves to disenfranchisement within a couple of years. So I think it's just that you know it's it's that moment there was this flash of a great deal of promise and then the. The wielders of power before realize that they can regain power and there's probably not to be consequences for their action and you know we've noted before too. But I mean the issue that brought them together with settled. After that was settled, it allowed the other party to play to racial fears and you know it's it's it's a sad continuing through history that we can see even up to today with some of the ads in the presidential race around urban protests. But you know one of the big moments in that eight hundred eighty-three campaign where the readjusts lose the general. Assembly. Is there an animal? Over a perceived a slight from African Americans to white people that were walking by them in the street, you know some of these kinds of cultural racial. Codes that were informal that white people and black people followed equal and and so that fight led to a huge amount of propaganda that allowed the opposition to win. You know was one of the reasons that the opposition was able to win the election and and you see that playbook and George Wallace you see that play book in Richard Nixon and you see that playbook right now and so when racial issues were able to rise to the four kind of white conservatives were able to re assert power and I would know one thing about that nineteen o two Constitution nineteen, no one of two constitution. Is the members that convention explicitly said, it was about rolling back racial voting rights. They had passed a series of laws in the late eighteen hundreds that allowed them to disenfranchise voters, but they had to do it in a corrupt way. You know they had to rig the ballot box they had to. Throw out legitimate ballots and so when they came to that convention carver glass who becomes a future? Senator. Says Explicitly The convention will inevitably cut from the existing electorate four-fifths of the Negro voters and that was the purpose of the convention. That's a direct quote. And End, they actually cut greater than fifty percent of the white electorate in greater than ninety percent of the black electorate in we became the state with the lowest proportion of adult voters to the early twentieth century to the point where a famous political scientists said that by contrast Mississippi as a hotbed of democracy. Yet I'm glad you mentioned Danville because gamble wed. it's almost it almost created itself as an opportunity for white supremacist to come back and say, this is what happens right the Danville actually, Alexa Majorities Majority City Council is black in eighteen, eighty three, and so this incident, some call it a riot, some just called it a math. Was it was the details are not are not entirely clear, but it was it was custom made to show to white people say look what happens look what happens when African Americans take control of the city this is how white people get treated. And so they they they used it sort of shamelessly in that regard. And this was an era of yellow journalism as well. Right and beard on an environment where you have the Democrats retaking control nationally was that was at grover Cleveland who comes back into power And and so one point that people make who say that Mahone was just a powerbroker in his own right I guess is that he started flipping patronage to Democrats and does that what kind of consequences does that have for? The readjust your party in Virginia. You know I actually I. think There's an interesting point here, which is once grover Cleveland becomes president that Senator Mahone. No longer has the kind of patronage to Dole out the way he used to right so. The change in the national scene actually sort of was one of the things that sort of lead to the demise right and sort of the patronage and the way that they were able to distribute power. And Mahone I mean from the moment you get to the Senate he's very cagey about who's going to caucus with I mean. He's certainly not rigidly adhering to some code of behavior. He's he's looking to see which way the wind blows in a sense, and so it shouldn't be it shouldn't be surprising. Realize Mahone is. In some sense almost a lame duck senator because the readjusted party is falling from power and he's still senator to wet eighteen, eighty, nine, I think So yeah. So the Party is essentially falls apart underneath him and he's he's still serving. So he kinda has to figure out what do I do next I'm not I'm not sure he was overly troubled by in some ways, but he did have to figure out how do i. kind of land this now that my party is basically gone. That's a good point because after he's no longer in the Senate, he runs for governor right in is unsuccessful. So I mean the whole thing kind of falls apart, which leads us to important question, which is what is the legacy of not just home, but the larger readjust her movement. One thing that I think could be significant and worth mentioning is this biracial coalition, which is kind of singular in the United States and the south right Doctor Levin good like what's the significance of this biracial coalition that they put together nineteen eighties? Yeah I mean it's I pointed earlier too. There's a moment when the People's Party, the populists might have done something I mean in. North Carolina and and a little bit in. Georgia. But yeah, you're right in that. It's the only truly successful coalition. Coalition of blacks and whites in the pre civil rights era So I think the legacy of it in that way although it's perhaps not as remembered as it might be it is one of those counterpoint to this notion that somehow. African Americans and whites couldn't work together politically and so I think it does belive that it does be live that myth it obviously has some real lasting legacy in I think the strength of the public. School. movement in Virginia certainly never goes back direction of some of the readjusted enemies would've would have had it had the readjusting not come on the scene so I think that becomes kind of enshrined in Virginia public life and in electoral politics obviously things like State University funding whether it's Virginia State or the expansion of Virginia. Tech. There's some real lasting thing was there. Even. If some of the other things, the poll tax that they remove gets reinstated I mean there are things that don't go away and I think you know in some ways when we look back on it now it's heartening in a way it kind of gives you some psychic income to realize that. There was a point in history where black and white Virginians came together especially those of of certain economic status and said, enough we're GONNA start our power and there's some real. There's some real value in remembering that and it's something that we really ought to. Remember and talk more about and no more about. Yeah and I think it's it represents the promise and the tragedy of reconstruction and how for as far as reconstruction in those amendments win. They didn't go far enough and I think it speaks is speaks to a gun. I'm going to go back to John Lewis kind of what he wrote in his op Ed in the New York Times that was published on the day of his of his funeral, his last words if you will, and he talks about democracy being an action. In democracy being continuous movement, you can't give. And I think they they kind of speak to the sense in which the vote is never enshrines it could he he says can always be taken away in what we see as we see a brief moment where they're able to come together able to get things accomplished some of which I agree the education piece is long lasting some of which isn't, but it speaks to the fact that if you don't continue to cultivate a healthy democracy, you will not get a healthy democracy thirty years after the readjusts their forgotten their buried A convention explicitly meant to a race them and the possibility of them from Virginia. and. And then you know you have the legacy after that of Jim Crow in the bird machine and so I think it speaks to the promise, but it also speaks to the tenuousness of of people being able to participate in continue to participate successfully in democracy. Delegate van Valkenburgh. What lessons learned are there for you as a member of the General Assembly that other members could take from this era of history. Not sure that there's a lot of lessons policy wise from what they do I. I, I think. I think the lesson is ultimately, you can't take anything for granted. You have to continue to shape a coalition. You have to continue to shake things relevance to people's lives. You have to continue to argue for why a multi-racial coalition is necessary. You have to continue to Kinda stand against racial division. Some of their tax policy in some of their school policies are things that I think in Virginia. We can take a lesson from to this day properly funding schools. You know reason I originally ran. I would argue we don't do that and I think that the lessons of how they got to that make a whole lot of sense but I do think the bigger lesson is the equality and democracy peace and I think it's important to recognize that There's never an endpoint it's never over you've never achieved your goal because democracy there's always tomorrow. Now. Recently, in the Capitol building in Richmond, The statue of Robert e Lee was removed from the old house. This is instantly the same house chamber that the readjustment once ruled and delegate Valkenberg tweeted about this about this particular statue and he said many of these statues like that statue of rubber used to be in the old house chamber gifts from other Southern States has recently the nineteen fifties then tweeted let's celebrate the readjust instead. What did you mean by that and how do you think the justice should be celebrated? Yeah, look I mean there's a difference between history and memory right? We want to study history warts and all because we need to know where we were to know where we're going. Never GonNa Change. But what we memorialize and what we hold up to be true I think should be shaped by what we think is important now and you have tour groups that go into that old house building for decades. All they see is a shrine to the loss caused you go in and you look to your left in there's a bust of Alexander Stevens, a Georgian who was the president of confederacy that was gifted to us in nineteen fifty two you look to your right you saw busted Jefferson Davis, and this is sippy man who was the president of the confederacy that was gifted to us from Mississippi state legislature in nineteen fifty three. and. I don't think that that rep you know we need to know that history we need to know that that. That the capital was used for the confederacy and we need to know the that we had a convention at asked us to see from the Union and we did. that. We had former presidents in that convention weeping when we seated tears of joy, we need to know that history, but we need to celebrate the moments where we reached our finest moments right where we lived up to our values lived up to our democracy in Virginia I cannot think of a better moment there's others but I can't think of a better one. Than the readjust there's a kind of what they stood for because they weren't perfect. They don't live up to twenty twenty values Mahone a great example of that. I do think they transcended their moment to live up to a constitutional values in a way that has been very rare in Virginia history and I think that's worth teaching fourth graders. Doctor Levin Good. Any final thoughts about the legacy of this group that's now almost completely forgotten. Yeah I really like what scholars just had to say I'm trying to think how you how you might physically memorial is that I don't know that you want to put up a statue of Mahone Other wouldn't take up much space. He was a very small guys get along lifestyle catch. Yes. Just doesn't aside I love the comment his his wife had when she heard during the civil war that he had received a flesh wounded battle and she said something like well now I know it must be very serious because William doesn't have much flesh to begin with which I thought was a great. Great great comet. He's. He's really a small cadaverous dude. Yeah you know I I i. mean. It's it's hard to say how you How you might spread this legacy a little more widely. you know obviously. In the Sol's is one is one manner that and I'm speaking to an educator here. You know that's one way we kind of. You know we we can say what we value as a as a state is what we decide. We WanNA enshrine in the standards for all their warts and everything. The standards of learning are at least one way to express that as as a society and I think that that's you know that's one way to do it and to continue like this to talk about them and to make sure that you know where when we have opportunities, we bring up this subject and we let people know a little bit more about it and I. Hope this podcast at least take some. Tiny step toward raising. Public awareness about a really interesting and significant. Brief period in the Commonwealth history although I must step in one last thing to say is I. Think when we talk about statues, we typically talk about very important people right. So we're talking about should we have a statue? I'll leave you with this. I think we should do more memorializing everyday people whether it's the Black Union soldiers or it's the average citizen who you know. Let's get that African American guy from new who was at the convention stood up and said you know what I'm more of a readjusted than half the you because I'm I'm all in on this because it's the citizen like that who leads to the readjustment movement. And and it's also when you're citizen in, you go to the citizens capital, you should understand your role. So this is maybe my call that we should. We should recognize the citizenry more than we do because you're democracy is only as healthy as the people who participate in. That is good of a place as any to leave it Dr Paul Levin. Good delegates Schuyler van Valkenburgh. Thank you so much for being on our podcast today and thank you for listening to Transition Virginia find us on spotify apple podcasts. Or. Anywhere. You like to get your podcast. We're on twitter at transition va, and as always you can hear more at Transition Virginia Dot Com.

Virginia William Mahone Doctor Levin General Assembly Public Education Van Valkenburgh Schuyler van Valkenburgh Virginia Historical Society United States president US Senate Conservative Party Democratic Party Bourbon Virginia State University Virginia
LTB#391 - Exploring California's Crypto-Legislation

Let's Talk Bitcoin!

1:01:32 hr | 2 years ago

LTB#391 - Exploring California's Crypto-Legislation

"It's March tenth twenty nineteen and this is three hundred ninety one. Let's talk bitcoin. Today's episode of let's talk bitcoin is brought to you by fellow early. Adopters and longtime friends of the show at easy DNS dot com. When you need website, hosting domain management, Email, provisioning or more think easy, DNS dot com. And for new customers use coupon. Code lt. Half off that's one word LT be half off to save fifty percent on your first purchase. On today's up sort of. Let's talk bitcoin for exploring aby one four eight nine or the California headlines and AB nine five three or the California. Stable point canvas taxation Bill, which is just not really the name. But it's what we're calling it. Because since terrible names, basically say amendment of wallah anyways through series of short interviews on various sides of today's issues. I we speak to call and Gallagher a longtime crypto enthusiast in California who shares his concerns about the process and substance of both bills. We're talking about today. Next Peter van Valkenburgh joins us from coin center from his perspective on why the California bid licenses actually deregulating Bill why they helped craft good legislation for those states who wanted and more. We close to this show with Alli Medina, mayor of every California, executive director of block advocacy dot org and a relative newcomer to bitcoin. Allie tells us how much AB nine five three and stable coins could mean to the cash-rich, but une banks demographic and make all users of legal marijuana system. Safer by taking the giant bags of cash. Armored cars and wacky security measures out of the picture. Today show was a little bit different. Let me know what you think adamant, let's talk bitcoin dot com. Enjoy the show. On today's episode stark, bitcoin, I'm here with calling Gallagher longtime community member who recently has been sounding alarm on legislative rumblings underway in California right now. Call him next time. Yeah. We'll thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it out. Okay. Call so let's just jump right into it. What's going on here? Basically what I think we've got here is of several bills, right? The most salient one one people be focusing on the one that was linked in the red red is AB fourteen eighty nine. I'm recalling the number correctly. There's all these Bill numbers. Now this Bill introduced in two thousand nineteen is the ULC Burr the uniform commissions model Bill which they they've in the past tried to get it off in various states pretty much beginning. I'm not sure it's two thousand fifteen but in two thousand fifteen we started to see California state in a couple of states attempting good up. Licensed getting turned down attempted to it. Again. The ULC was involved in trying to promote a model Bill that they felt they could get adopted mall will stay it's it's never been something that anybody would really want. But they keep pushing kind of quietly I recall, I think it was a Nebraska naturally in prior legislative session. They tried to get it passed like in say, a small state new you're hoping nobody would notice we'll noticed you'll see now that the same Bill the ULC model Bill being pushed in not just California, but they'll try to split the opposition up into into different fronts. So you're having to contend with various different, legislatures, so Oklahoma, Oklahoma. Yep. Oklahoma Nevada about places, I doubt anything like this would pass in about a even the Baltics Nevada. But it's hard to say you, ignore it. And maybe it will pass if you nothing about it. Maybe it will pass a why has actually. Cheated license before a couple times yet they want to introduce it there, again, they're Sesing or their votes can get it on the floor, and they may be get past the one with legislative body. Even if the other one won't it's that kind of thing these bills, though, even if you say they pass like say, the California semi which is almost a given the California semi will pass anything now basically can impasse committees. And that's the real question that people have to ask for position of these bills to be affected opposition, you have to know what committees it's likely to go to the Bank. Ing finance committee appropriations, and if you can't stop it for moving forward in the assembly in California, it's very likely that you still have a very strong chance of being able to defeat a costly Bill abilities expensive to business and individuals, regardless of who will certain applies to it can't be stopped in Senate appropriations even with the current artists and make up of California. And the way it is in the. Authority of being what it is. In fact, bills that most legislators in California dispatcher would want to pass many of them have been successfully stopped in Senate appropriations even after having passed the assembly with full assent. It can be done, but people should not like lean back on their Ohrel's or assume that because bit license was denied before it will be again, and so on and so forth. Are you calling? So we're just gonna go through these issues and kind of a basic form what I'd like to know about this first one which is a b one four eight nine entitled an act to add chapter seven to division. Eight of the commercial code and division. One point two five commencing with section three one one of the financial code relating to ritual currency businesses. Terrible name. Anyways, if you could just start with this one what is this Bill? Why is it important in terms of what danger? Do you think that it serves to our community or to the crypto currency project broadly? And what should we do about it and your is? Okay. Well, keeping us a simple possible. This Bill is very very similar to pass bills. We've seen in California the fourteen nine for two thousand nineteen very very similar when we first saw the ULC or the uniform law commission attempt to introduce license along with the conference of state banking supervisors who are supporting their vision. Twenty twenty concept AB thirteen twenty six in two thousand fifteen at two thousand sixteen to feed AB eleven twenty three in two thousand seventeen in two thousand eighteen also defeated essentially you have a knock off Bill which is before Kennedy nine in which the ULC or the uniform laws commissions, otherwise known wished to get passed in not just California. But in multiple states, which isn't wouldn't now they're trying to do for people that pay membership these things like the ULC or the conference of state banking supervisors or whatever to be part of that professional group. It's a way for them to get around the the disclosure laws that require that the political money disclosed. So they're paying these people. And then these people go and do the lobbying in the legislature. Then there's other interests the contact them and say, hey, how about you? Yeah. This language and to the Bill so it escapes, the whole concept of being able to disclose who's paying the money politically to have this stuff happen when you see something like the U see a format Bill saying, you know, this, you know, don't worry it's got exemptions. You won't have to while. These people have to get permission it still causes tremendous pain to the industry a full disclosure is that I work for one of the top five exchanges twenty four hour volume. But even if I didn't work for them. I still wouldn't be opposing this. As I was even before I was working for an exchange. So AB one. Eight nine is basically the latest attempt at a Bill we've seen tried to get past many times before over the last number of years, and it's pretty similar to the one that actually was passed. But there are some differences relative to the one in New York. Yes, there's definitely differences between the one in New York. And the ones we see introduced the state legislatures in California and currently also Nevada a why in Oklahoma, notably. A why is defeated bit license before I think twice actually over the course of a couple of different bills in both house bills in the Senate bills. What is the bad thing that the bit license is trying to do right now. What what is the what did they accomplish in New York? And what are they trying to accomplish with this fill? Elsewhere. Well, what they accomplished in New York just really to sum up is to make it. So that people have to ask permission of the state in order to run a certain types of businesses. Now, if you get a business lice. Or if you get a license from the state to do business. You've already got some kind of license, but this adds a new license on top of that licensed to use the kind of currency that one wants to and then on top of it it requires that there be information sharing from the license with any other states that feel like they need to engage in this Bill is inside activity. It requires sharing customer information with the FBI Eric wires. Dramatic audits requires a whole range of things that essentially tree innovators as they're criminals, and I I don't even know a person in the space engages in criminal activity in response to looking after compliance issues all the times to make sure that our corporate's can stay on boarded instill access funding, and so on so so the idea that were underregulated or were not regulated sufficiently is sort of ludicrous for as anybody knows who works in this space. So what's the timeline on this and in terms of momentum? How does it look like this is likely to pass or is this just sort of another? Attempts, but likely to be pushed back this point will it's quite possible that the level of awareness already given to it unknown very thankful that there were some people willing to it for few days in the Arctic quince read it to get more visibility to the issue. But I've indicated before and I think it's it's it's safe to say that pretty much anything will pass the California assembly mean over that can't be stopped because you could still say well, stop it Senate committee like the Senate appropriations committee because of the cost of it. And that's actually true for other bills. That are totally unrelated to this that the legislature may ideologically favor, but which because of their costs manned up sinking this thing, even if it passes the the assembly, this is something people wanna make sure doesn't happen. How should they be thinking about how should they be helping strategically? I think that businesses that are concerned, whether they're small businesses are very large ones, like large exchanges or nonprofits. Because there's also quite a few non. Office that have corporate accounts with exchanges. Rely on those exchanges for they're not improper activities. They should collaborate with each other for other people no or involved in the space in the crypto related space. They should say, okay. Rather than each of us met our own position letter on these bills assembly and Senate they should collaborate and say we're going to have several of us together. Co-signed some kind of letter, you know, you have one business or you know, an individual's like they can ignore it. But if you have many many individuals coming the legislature, they could still ignore it. But if you have a bunch of businesses cosigning a letter, even if it's three or four businesses, you know, mall, businesses are large. They know that there's people with realis- us and concerns behind this not just somebody that's griping sniping to the extent that this will impact in people should read the the full scope of the legislation to see exactly how it will impact them if it's passed, but to that extent businesses should collaborate on position letters. So that you have several. At least assigning each letter. So let me play devil's advocate here for for a minute. Would Mike complaint would be about something? Like, this is that it actually makes it much more difficult for smaller players to compete, and I actually, you know, in my non let's talk bitcoin life with work. I do a token Lee. We built an ecommerce product protocol token markets couple years ago. And after the bid licensed pass, we looked at what it meant for our company and our products, and we came to the conclusion that it was impossible for us to get bit license. We couldn't walk away from New York because we're going after the fashion industry with one of our partners, and they had an event that we were promoting New York. And so we had to be able to accept e-commerce customers for New York. So we wound up completely re working the way that we process transactions and typically the way that you processed transactions like a bit pay out there or something like that is you generate a unique bitcoin address, and then the customer pays the bitcoin address. And then you forward the payments to the merchant at the end of it and that meant. That the payment processor is a custody payment processor where even though they're only holding the funds for like twenty minutes. They still at some point in time, hold the funds. And so what we figured out was that we had to go back and make it. So that we never touched the funds funds only ever went from the customer straight to the merchant arts laws is the securities intermediary implication, suggests that one of the exemptions of securities intermediary as divined commercial code or commodity mediary. Then it says anybody that's getting a license is going to be treated as security is intermediary. So it forces businesses into a model, they may not be interested in engaging with some in a box horses any business that does not want to get a bit license weather. It's very tiny kind of business that might this might apply to or larger wanted absolutely will apply to it forces them to assess what our compliance costs can we remain in this industry, which is why so many exchanges a New York when New York's bit licensed was adopted. And so these these exchanges than. After assess not only how do we deal with compliance issues? So as to avoid serving individuals in a state where there's it license, but then on top of that just like, you did how do we keep serving people in New York to the extent that we can't the extent it's possible. Even if you don't get the bit license. Well, now you had exchanges thing. Okay. You guys go, you know, incorporate if you're a Newark individual incorporate in a non licensed state and some other state, incorporating California, for example, so you have you know, example, New York people incorporating in California than they get a corporate account on exchange does the bit license, and that in turn means that they have like a California type account that serves the corporation, but not the individual what of California then gets the bit license, then they're screwed. It's like I find it really hard to advise anybody to incorporate now on California, Oklahoma, Nevada or per why. Because those are the areas where bit licenses proposed for two thousand nineteen and if it passes in any one of those states, and you have a corporate. Nation in that state. You're not shielded from their bit license because because your state of incorporation is the state where there would be a bit license, even if it wasn't a four. So the people thought they were ready within the scope and extent of where their business could afford to operate within that corporate framework now may find that they cannot and they may have thousands of clients and yet they have an account on an exchange because exchange of thriving with liquidity and helps provide their clients access to the markets and so on and so forth. So the exchanges are impacted and the people who are clients of the exchanges were smaller businesses are impacted even if the incorporate a non licensed state if it becomes licensed there. Hero of that. And I don't disagree with any of it. My question is more specifically on the what what the bit licensed did in our case. I would not have we would not have done that. Otherwise, we certainly would've would not have invested resources insert have been lots of other things. But at the end of it, it wound up with a system where we actually were not custody. Ing any part of the you know of the transaction and it actually lowered the risk that we had to. And I think about that. And I think about the reaction that I had the bit license in terms of reengineering our system to make it less vulnerable to that type of thing. And I think about things like the the Kouadria I exchange issue. It's been going recently when I real. Dream lack of compliance in extreme lack of forthrightness in it ended appears to that money may have been gone a long time ago. Clearly there are arguments in favor of having more regulated especially as these entities get larger. So is the problem that you have with it that this is a digital layers of regulation on top of regulations already there or that it's just it's regulation for its own sake. It's totally unnecessary. I'm not saying I'm to any concept of any sort of state Bill, but let's be realistic. What would be the best sort of steel, honestly, it would be if you had something that would require exchanges to meet some kind of standard for security not to not to provide into their permanent to divulge all their client list of the FBI Whitney work requires to have a quote, unquote, periodic audits to have permission layers, what examples not exempt how about simply a state Bill that actually stipulates we're gonna have a standard for security that you have to meet. Eat in order to comply with state law because that would be horrible state law people might still Jek to it. But on St. if your client any exchange, your hope is that not only with the exchanges themselves be good enough to police themselves and create the best possible security. But if they can't you would hope there would be a minimum security standard that might be required for them at some point. It doesn't require a whole nother licensing regime licensing on top of licensing. But would it would would I would advocate for what I have. I get it for in the past is some sort of system that creates a minimum security standard, especially for extent for those exchanges. That don't seem to care about security because there's some exchanges at care very deeply about security, and there's others that literally don't apart from AB fourteen nine discussed. There's another Bill called AB nine fifty three which I think I'm complimenting the authors of this Bill by saying basically this Bill is a. Promotion for the stable coined show in and yet on top of that. That's not all is. It's also a confounding the idea stable coin promotion or Kahn mingling with marijuana collectives. When I was looking at who are the people that are funding this garbage in the Reddit thread, I got into a little bit. But did mention too heavily. If you look for who's funding legislators that are pushing these bills, including stay coin Joe Bill AB nine fifty three. You see that one of them is called ghost management, which was also funny. Legislators that are trying to push AB fortunati nine eighty one forty seven and this goes management, and I was like what is this group? Why look it up, and there's like a little Bloomberg profile and goes management, and it basically is an organization it's been doing this whole Nara wanna collective thing. But they've been donating to these very legislators that are formerly AB forty nine the marijuana slash stable, quench shit show, one eighty one or seven so I'm like, oh, this is interesting ghost management, and they're. Our subsidiary of another company, which which is also very interesting. So you have a few different companies that are promoting this Bill ineffectively attempted to use their corporate names, the shield goes management. All we know exactly are because he can look it up on Bloomberg by typing. A couple of words, they want there to be taxes paid on marijuana in table coins. Which is sort of what the Bill is basically promoting and so somebody from the stable coin industry is right now so to speak in around a Sacramento leading a slime trail trying to promote eighty nine fifty three and that's really high. I don't know what else say about this stuff pass. How does anything pass? But there's over two thousand we got up bills that in California right now, two thousand something these two thousand five hundred or several hundred more bills that were introduced by the deadline this legislative session than there were last year. I think last year was two thousand one hundred seventy something bills this year two thousand five hundred some. So so you get the idea it's very easy for for this all we get sort of lost. Like, nobody sees what's going on. Is there so many it will be very easy to miss it? Who's asking for this like? I mean, I mean, apparently the ghost management group is definitely behind it. They feel that that if they get this quote unquote city cannabis tax, that's that's indicated in the Bill to be able to be paid a stable coin. Perhaps, you know, I I don't wanna say which appointed anyone probably. Although I'm guessing there's a few top stable Quinn's in terms of, you know, the dominance that are most pushing for this thing, and then they want to to to quote unquote, in terms of the Bill for cannabis licensees or people that are licensed in California. Even if the federal government, doesn't, you know? At that. It's it's still know state kind of looking other way things long as we only pay us. Our our peace will let you do whatever. So so it's that and then there's a another tax county tax in a city tax, which they want to be able to have favored for stable coin payment via this Bill strange at somebody would actually advocate for taxes to be paid in a certain way, while they say, we're not going to restrict how you can pay us. However you want. No instead, they have to promote it stable coin again playing devil's advocate here for a second. One of the biggest problems that California has in terms of the recreational marijuana industry is that dispensaries can't access the banking system in the same way that other businesses can. And so one could see how if you were resigned to to to not having the like normal way that everybody else does business work for this one particular sector of the economy. Emme than you could make an argument for a stable coined because it allows you to do the remittances without using a Bank as an intermediary effectively because using the and intermediate I mean, it's it's kind of a it's a weird way to address the problem. But it's it's a little bit novel in that way on besides novel at all because because actually if they really want people to be able to pay it would simply say it simply not pass any more new bills. They would say back in two thousand I think it was two thousand fourteen I can't remember the year, but Brown signed into law, something basically saying that the virtual currencies can be treated as million isn't gonna violate any law or whatever. So so after that was passed there were still legal issues, you know, people work through in terms of Samya wish we would have even more permissions or the there'd be more regulatory, clarity or whatever. But but once Brown sign that that law, I forget what it was some law on two thousand fourteen or a funeral whatever. Then people were like, bitcoin or any other virtual currency is treated, basically money. If you want to you wanna treat it that way. For the purposes of some kind of payment. So why would you need this Bill? You don't it's just promotion for the stable coinate industry. So whether you're in California, or we're also been introduced in Oklahoma, a y Nevada and potentially other states as the year goes on you should be opposing these bills in California eighty nine fifty three marijuana related one eighty fourteen eighty nine in California is the one that probably works people move oast or would whoever you are in the industry, especially if it directly applies to you in then similar Bill AB forty-nine, California is also being promoted as I mentioned in Oklahoma, Nevada. A y in Oklahoma's h nineteen fifty four in Nevada as ninety five in Hawaii is SP two fifty and HP seventy Senate Bill house Bill. So if you're in the industry, you should collaborate with other people in the industry and have a couple different business or three or four or five different businesses. Cosign a- a- let her position to be sent into these various legislatures on. Just California, but Nevada Oklahoma Hawaii telling them how you feel saw them whether or not you really want that to be the model wrestling coach, and we're going to include all of the names the bills and links to the text within the show notes this episode. So you can take a look at any of the ones tickly yourselves if you've under selves in Oklahoma, y or Nevada you want to check out the local state version of that Bill gone. Thank you very much your time. Onto these episodes stark, bitcoin, I'm here with returning guess, Peter van Valkenburgh of coin center dot org. Peter, thank you very much for your time. Always happy to be here. So over the years coin centers played a front and center role in the push to gain legislative support to make sure that if laws are being applied to bitcoin. They're the best ones that we can get whether you agree with that assessment or not you correct me or expand a little bit on the motivating philosophy coin center. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. Were coin agnostic, so I extend that beyond bitcoin any open blockchain network. So if you're AM light coin, you know, whatever long as it's an open consensus mechanism, and then another detail to add our primary mission has always been to defend the core, underline technology. So we're not out represent in Washington. Or at any government agency, the interest of a company that's building on top of these networks. It's always the network itself. So we're we're more like a digital civil rights organization. Than industry lobby. Yeah. That does seem like it compares kind of directly against the other type of organization. That's in the space, which are ones that are like working specifically with exchanges to lobby on their behalf. Really what you guys are doing release intended mortgage greeted generic level playing field for that broad technology as a whole we talk about things in terms of bitcoin because his let's talk bitcoin crypto currency. Yeah. We actually work closely with the blockchain association with other industry associations because we normally have shared policy, visions in mind, like the interests of a lot of businesses building on the underlying network are aligned pretty well with the interest of the network itself in most instance, but we are different. So today, we're talking about the new proposed California bid license as it's been described by community member Colin Gallagher whose been sounding the alarm on California assembly Bill, one four eight nine if you wanna look up the tax before we talk about the actual Bill itself for this type of Ville if coin center could literally just pick what went into this type of Bill. What would the purpose of that? Bill B of who does it protect who. Are we protecting from? So let me put it this way. Fourteen eighty nine is basically the uniform law commissions alternative to the bit life and we worked with the ULC too. And. A half years ago starting to an F years ago and were involved in a lot of the drafting committee meetings or the original version of this say alternative bit license, and I'll tell you why the bit licenses terrible. The bit license was drafted to be overly broad. You can read the language for virtual currency business activity, which is supposed to describe who needs a bit license in who doesn't as covering all kinds of persons, including off where nodes minors multi sake providers who don't out sufficient ISA transact. It's really not good to have that kind of ambiguity. Because the last thing we want is there to be a law on the books could be used to force people who aren't custodial to get license is that's kind of game over for the network. I mean, I think the network would probably be fine. But it's game over for the legal use of the network. And so the bit license was this big problem for us. We wanted there to be an alternative out there for states that weren't willing to be. The hands off. So there are some states that are willing to be hands off like Texas Kansas Illinois, partially after we know help the regular Illinois understand the alternatives. They said actually we we don't wanna licensing statute for this stuff at all yet. In Wyoming, New Hampshire which pass laws saying, you know, bitcoin businesses if you're just doing crypto to crypto stuff, you don't need a license to that's great coin center completely supports those states that wanna take that hands off approach. But that said, it's politically unrealistic to imagine that all states are going to be willing to be that hands off some states typically have democrat majorities in their state legislatures. But I don't wanna pay too broad of a brush are just always going to be more concerned with consumer protection than they are with the being really like lace airfare hands off innovation. So in those states that are gonna wanna pass licensing laws or require licenses from bitcoin exchanges. We wanted there to be a good law out there that Whitten have the sort of alarming ambiguity that the license hat that would be extremely clear in the way it was written. So that it would only cover people who hold other people's bitcoins. In other words, only cover the coin bases and say Zappa of the world and never cover the bit goes when they offer their multi six Aleutian, or for that matter, you know, bitcoin core or say, a lightning network note, all these other non-custodial players who are hugely important. And so we work with the uniform law commission and drafting law. They have a pretty open process. Like, frankly, I was able to go to all the drafting committee meetings, and there were like seven of them. And we said, here's the one definition coin center really cares about is this definition of control because his definition of control determines who is holding Bitcoin's for other people and therefore needs a license, and the definition that we suggested in the ultimate adopted in their model. Law was control is the ability to unilaterally execute or indefinitely. Prevents a bitcoin transaction I'm paraphrasing a little, but that's that's that's the essential logic of it in. It's important because that means that somebody who has one out of three keys in a multi sig one out of two because there are a lightning note. And there's an lock none of these players have the ability to indefinitely prevents or unilateral transact. So they don't need a license under the ULC's law. And again, the is law is the text of of what's going on in California. So looking at the text of AB one four nine section three zero two line of control means both of the following when used in reference to a transaction or relationship involving virtual currency power to execute unilaterally or prevent indefinitely virtual currency transaction. And then be is when used in reference to a person the direct or indirect power to direct the management operations or policies of. A person through legal or beneficial ownership of voting power in a person or under a contract arrangement or understanding? So basically, what this says here is that in order for you to be considered someone who has control you have to actually have control. Exactly. And so looking at the Bill that actually is in here. And so that that's quite interesting. I have a couple of specific questions about this based off of what you've said so far so one thing harkening back to my conversation with Colin we talked about the ULC, and he viewed it as as kind of a negative thing. Actually as a way where these are bills that need to be fought. And so it's a way to to save on the creation the cost of creating these bills individually h legislature instead, you just craft one, and then you push through all of these different sort of industry channels and try to get a turn into state law, and he was doing that as a bad thing because he sees these laws generally as a bad thing. I mean, do we need these laws? Do we actually need regulations on the books? Even in the case of states that want them. Because we don't banking regulations. Many of these regulations already apply so banking regulations. Don't already apply unless you wanna construe. What a bitcoin exchanges doing is taking deposits. That's a difficult thing argue and also be rather bad as it would basically give exchanges free rein to to run essentially fracture reserve bitcoin banks because that's that's what banks do so banking laws are irrelevant to the conversation. Really money. Transmission laws are what are relevant money. Transmission licensing laws exist in every state except Montana and money transmission licensing laws are already in place in basically say in in different language in every state because again, all states have their own statutes, usually if you are accepting transmitting, money or other persons or facilitating the transmission of money or monetary value, your money transmitter, you need to get licensed, and that's a very broad definition. Like if monitor. -tary value includes bitcoin, and it almost certainly does. And if assimilating the transmission monetary value could potentially include things like running software entered internet, connected, computer, that's relaying bitcoin transactions. Yeah. You're facilitating the transmission amounts, very value. And in theory by not having a licence to run that node on your computer, and you're living in say, California. You technically might be violating California's existing money transmission law, and that's bad. And the regulators in California in other states have not hung after people doing this because that is a stretch interpretation of their laws, and I think that the good grounds to fight them. If they did that. And I don't think they want that. I don't think they're interested in regulating software notes. But nonetheless, those laws on the books, which is like a sword hanging over your head. If you're doing something that should never require a license in the first place. So given the state of the world, that's where we are a law that you then pass that replaces that money transmission licensing law for the purposes of. Businesses and bitcoin activities if it says, you don't ever need, a license. If all you're doing is running software all you're doing is mining then it's actually a deregulatory law. It says look the prior statute could covered all these activities. The new one that replaces it only covers this one activity, that's controlling going on behalf of someone else in your view, effectively laws already apply to all of the behaviors we're talking about here. This is creating a more nuanced than specific version of those laws such that they actually make sense. But still regulate players that the original laws intend to regulate. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense to me. So let's go through just real quickly. Who this does not apply to cause I found that list to be kind of interesting. I'm gonna paraphrase the first several in that I have two specific ones that the ends that will lead into a question. So the people that this law doesn't apply to don't have to have this sort of thing swimming that AB one four eight nine passes people who already have licenses that basically are quivalent to this. Federal or state level people who as you said are providing services or infrastructure, but not actually touching any of the control elements. So this could be minors. Also, be other types to people who are in exempted already. Regulated industries people who do business exclusively with people who aren't in the state of California. So there's nobody in California, therefore, the law does need to apply to you and getting to the specific ones a person using virtual currency, including creating investing buying selling or obtaining virtual currency as payment for the purchase or sale of goods or services, solely on the person's own behalf for personal family household purposes or for academic purposes. That's one of them basically says that if you're doing it for yourself, and it's not a business, then this doesn't apply to you. And then the last one says a person who's virtual currency business activity with or on behalf of residents is reasonably expected to be valued around five thousand dollars or less. And so that means that you actually can have a virtual currency business that looks like virtual currency business along as it's so small that it doesn't cross this threshold, right? Okay. Great. So again like that seems like it encompasses most of the things we're talking about the question. I have is you mentioned exchanges a couple of times as the primary regulated density as a general rule, if you're a merchant you're selling something in your accepting bitcoin payments than absolutely no this law should not apply. The because you're a company acting on your own behalf selling your goods or services, or maybe even reselling someone else's goods or services. Maybe that's where this complicated. But I don't think so sure. And so you're using bitcoin on your own behalf. And that's fine. You're allowed to do that under that exemption which was an exemption that we also bought or in the drafting committee meetings that the domestic bench said under five thousand dollars. You're not regulated. Because we really only want this law to apply sensibly. I think if big businesses. That hold a lot of bitcoin for other people the mount Gotcha of world. So exchanges are platforms that connect someone who wants to by someone who wants to sell those are the customers. So those customers in doing this along as they're not doing it for business purposes. They don't fall under these laws assuming come into force who should this apply to besides exchanges. Or is it literally just any business holds money for any length of time? It should really only by exchanges. That's the purpose of that exemption that says that a an individual or a business is acting on their own behalf. Buying selling holding. Anything is is not covered by this. At though, if you're a business that's holding stuff on your own behalf because it's your business that's involved rather than holding stuff for other people. In other words, being a wallet provider or a true exchange that actually has Odio, and you know, brokering deals between buyers and sellers and an assuming the counterparty risk holding the money. Between the new regulated. But the idea is you've got an online shop, and you've got, you know, customers than you. Don't need license. That's that's not this activity. That's regulated which is on behalf of others holding large amounts. Cryptocurrency. Looking at some of the Reddit threads and the Twitter over station. The thing that's been most alarming to me is this mischaracterization of the law. That says the somehow the law requires people to hold bitcoin with intermediaries I've seen that a lot as if you're just not going to be allowed to hold your own bitcoin anymore. You're gonna have to hold it with securities intermediary. There's nothing in the law. That says that the law doesn't regulate individuals, and therefore could never even tell individuals what they are in are not allowed to do with their bitcoin in that exemption that we talked about two seemed pretty specific to the personal use pretty darn broad, you know, investing creating buying selling obtaining virtual currency as payment for purchaser sale of goods services leave again, and it covers basically everything set for business. And then you've got the five thousand dollar limit on the other side. It actually covers business that language is person and person is defined as. Illegal entity, including business. What's next for coin center with regards to pushing forward in terms of legislation? Do you guys have more plans in mind in terms of ways to improve these bills further or kind of what's the goal here? So for the state law stuff for the licensing issue. We're pretty much done. Our main objective with the uniform law commissions act with the get an alternative to the bit license that would definitely exclude sort of non custodial infrastructure providers. That's our main concern that the network aid to run in they need to run without licensing. Now things could still be a lot better at the states. We could have sort of more uniform laws for regulating custodians that it'd be calibrated to the amount of risk of the custodian provides like someone who's only having transient custody. Probably doesn't present the risk of somebody is storing puns pick way for people that better law that said it's really hard to get states to adopt a uniform standard. And so as long as it got something better than the bit license. Out there for the states that are gonna pass it. I think that's a win. And now centers more focused on federal law, and we might be able to fix this at the federal level round in the state level by having some sort of preemption of state money. Transmission licensing, so there's just one federal authority that does licensing not fifty three states. Territories is that be pretty pro innovation. Actually, you don't have to have this offer conversation with fifty three different regulators. And then there's other issues that were focused on to like we just released a paper on the constitutional law surrounding any attempt to license offer developers. His that again is a really dire threat on the horizon potentially especially with the emergence of trying to cash in anonymous cryptocurrency and decentralized exchange, which are all software power. So if there was ever attempt to the future, try license or permission, those activities just the development of the software. We'd need to fight it. And I think we could actually fight on constitutional grounds. We've moved onto that what's centers kind of stance on the current guidance around taxes or you guys trying to. Do any education or health at the IRS over there to maybe gets better standards or or nuance rules out. So there's a couple of good bills in congress one by let introduce laugh session policing Schweiker and one now that'll be coming up Davidson and both touch on this tax issue. Wherein you have to calculate capital gains, even for small stations cryptocurrency. So you buy something that's only like a hundred bucks you have to calculate applegate's. That's ridiculous. And that's a sort of a low hanging fruit something good fix as far as act policy by just saying if any transactions under six hundred dollars, you don't have to calculate that games. You don't own anything the IRS that'd be really good. So we're pushing for that. And we actually hired a r I new research fellow in a long time. Basically, we started names James pow used to be the CFP got regulatory experience this goal and poor new guy. We we. Through all of the facts at him. So he's going to be coming out next month. I think the number of paper on all the exits. Today on let's start bitcoin. I'm here with Alli. Medina, the mayor of Emeryville caliF and the executive director block advocacy dot org. Alley. Thanks taking the time. Thanks for having me on. So before we get to the topic at hand he tells a little bit about yourself when and how you became interested in bitcoin. Cryptocurrency broadly year ago, somebody that I used to work at the San Francisco Democratic Party, Jason Wong. Who's on? Our Ford was like you should start learning about blockchain. It's really important in the regulatory space, and we need more policymakers volved in. So he sent me some books to read I got really interested in started looking up the regulatory, landscape wise, it's a mess. It's a total complete mess. They invited me to dinner party with much of crypto in lasagna in as one does as one and they said that they had talked to several political consulting firms. But nobody knew anything about blockchain. They didn't feel like they can really help bring to California. What hap-? Why they were looking for a plan forward with my background in union, organizing aunt, Mike experience in both local politics. I thought I really could see here in California. And there are sort of lead out to your plan would be and we started here one last year in our near to. Okay. So I wanted to get into that a little bit more. Can you talk a little bit more about your background before you got into cryptocurrency? Because as I mentioned, you're the mayor of Emeryville, and you know, you're younger than I am. And I usually feel like the youngest guy in the room when it comes stuff like this. So how did you find yourself in in that situation where you were becoming the mayor of every ability h before you were even interested in currency. Okay. So actually was not the mayor before I got into crypto small cities. We're going to rotate mayorship process. Bear system, which I feel like is a rude way of explaining it. But basically, they elect five council members in every bell, and we rotate year after year. So I was elected in two thousand sixteen that was a really rough election night for me. Really excited, and then also crying. So prior to that I've been working in politics for my entire adult life, which he knows is a decade high school really I worked on congressional campaigns during college I worked for will call it progressive puppy mill right after college just trend out campaigns. But I have a staff of twenty two people by the time. I was twenty three years old. I then apply for not really lucky and got a job, directing the San Francisco Democratic Party, which is a really cool springboard for me to get more interested in statewide, politics and understand party politics in the connections between the CO by some consulting, California bicycle coalition found that I really care about transportation policy in can really see how our streets and how people live. It's a social Justice issue in some three people decided to not run again for their seats on emergency council. The current mayor recruited me, she said, you know, we're small city year young super politically active, and he's got ideas around transportation, just go for it. So I got elected. The twenty seven. Today, like talk with you about what I'm paraphrasing as the California cannabis stable coin taxation act, but which is formerly known has the California assembly Bill nine five three and a has a basically unreadable real name is it's basically amendment on. I read the text of this Bill, and it is not much of a Bill at all. It defines a couple of different terms. More importantly, it says that if this Bill passes than within about a year year and a half the relevant commissions have to come up with a rule and with a method by which cannabis producers cannibis retailers and other parties who are taxed in the medical or retail marijuana system in California may but do not have to remit payment in the form of a stable coin. It's one of those things where like I can see why why this would happen in sort of a general sense. Like, I guess it's better to have more options and more competition, but I'm not seeing the acute need for this. Can you kind of explain the thought behind this Bill or what's it's trying to accomplish there? There's actually a great need for this Bill on California legislator has been struggling for years to come up with a solution to the cannabis banking problem ever since even miss marijuana became a thing. The cities were doing they realize you can't make marijuana banks need to be FDIC insured because the federal government means most banks do not take marijuana clients. So it's a cash based business, which is very retro very dangerous for lots of reasons estimator of real I'm aware that when we permit marijuana businesses when the things we do require them to show their security plans to our chief of police, the concept security being such a big thing as a lot of small towns us to not allow marijuana businesses to operate in jurisdiction, which is one of the parts of the state wide Bill so security always been a big problem any jurisdiction that does allow marijuana businesses has to collect tax dollars from the right and not as done with armored vehicle. Most. You have armored cars, which are expensive to hire people with bags of cash coming into city hall, and then you've city hall employees. This has been happening in Berkeley and Oakland for years, not an Emeryville yet. We just got our first I'm going to be hall, and they have to count out tens of thousands of dollars of cash at a time. And then the city has to pay for their armored truck to take it to their Bank, and at this stage packs level, we have reports that the CD TEFA in the smell like marijuana end fabric softener. Yes. You these boring agencies that are having like four cop cars in our vehicle out front, and then people carrying bags of cash and they had these safes that smell like marijuana. Now. This is not a good or fishing system. It's expensive enough. Okay. So that makes sense. So this is something we've talked about a number of times affects marijuana's. Well, we've talked about in the context of operation choke point. I think that's what was called which was against them. Adult service providers and stuff like that things that aren't actually illegal under most stances, but which are kind of beyond the pale under certain situations or to certain groups of people, and therefore they wind up getting excluded either at the federal level or even just kind of the state policy level from the ability to use the banking system, and that banking system is very important. Not just for people actually being able to walk into a store and use a credit card. They do ever worlds. But as you said because it means that otherwise you have to deal with these gigantic stacks of cash, which has this huge. Structure, which actually creates most danger around the legal space. So the idea here is that by making it. So that California has to the regulatory bodies have to put a system in place that allows someone to choose to use. This means if people still wanna use the terrible casualties system, of course, can continue to use that but this would allow for that to happen differently. So, but how how do you get from here to there though? Right. So someone gives cash to marijuana retailer in the marijuana retailer has cash how do they convert that into a stable coin? I mean, like are they taking those sacks of cash instead of bringing it to, you know, city hall, they bring it to you know, the stable coin conversion facility, you're you in vision know, setting up how we get for me to bait as this can happen. And before you know, we went ahead and shop spill I spoke to a lot of my local candidates. Unfortunately, I'm when my local ones East Bay therapeutics has like twenty five years of tech background soon. They were able to understand this health walk through how they thought it worked for businesses. What we envision happening is one of two things. I think there will. Be once this passes cottage industry that pops up to service. Maybe yes, according to where you can bring your bags of cash, maybe there will even be marijuana cash back stable coin stone fact much marijuana cash, but that's not what prescribing the businesses, especially the ones with more tech savvy consumers in the bay area would probably start accepting virtual currency initially an offer consumers discount to pay them in virtual currency because it's much cheaper for them to accept it. And hold it in for them to deal with the cash, and there's a new Bill Tulsa, lower the excise tax all they really need to do get up to quarter of what they have into ritual currency. The have one of those bitcoin ATM's up front for some consumers. I'm sure a bunch of people have coin baseball. It's they could just pay up front like he would go pay. And so there's a couple of ways of getting the currency into the system, but what mostly businesses I've talked to have said is bathing this'll be a ripple effect. We think the entire industry will start moving towards virtual Carthy. It's interesting that this was being phrased effectively as Bill because this. This is something we've actually seen pop up from the broader cryptocurrency community a couple of times with different types of tokens. They're really targeted this problem and said if we can get a specific marijuana coin or something like that into these spaces than we can solve this problem. And it really hasn't happened. I can see to to why when I started speaking to on cannabis businesses. They said they actually reshot too many companies didn't have anything to do with them because they didn't understand the industry. They were scared of getting involved in anything that had questionable regulations because they were already precarious legal his issue. And so when I started talking to your the mayor will listen, and if there is a legal framework to do so that's something we really want to get a high. This is supported by the cannabis industry 'cause they wanna have like a framework that explains exactly what's required hasn't consumer and business protections for them. So they're not getting ripped off because banks are charging them ridiculous fees to even Bank in cash. They're just really going after them. We're getting out by everyone. So they don't want to know go with this new industry without hunting any sort of consumer protection. Someplace. I don't know how much he looked at California's other bills, but for the past couple of years, they've been multiple working groups to try to address the cannabis thinking problem two thousand seventeen state treasurer's report says we got nothing for you. Use our cars, they spent a lot of money in another year convenient Kansas banking working group, and they released reporter December twenty seventh up to eighteen by my holidays refund surgery two hundred twenty seven pages of treasures reported that said cryptocurrencies not a good solution. And no explanation of why? And then another two hundred like paragraphs about why public Bank is fighting actually infeasible JiJi with. There was a Bill last year that failed Espy nine thirty. That would have created a cannabis depositories petition the Dink Bank Bill by he's reintroduced that this year by it will have a minimum capital cost of twenty million to send up in individual charter through just one ongoing cost of Tulane Lanier in. I don't think that's necessarily bad idea. We've worked with him at Herzberg sophists. He's gotten a lot of. Run financial institutions. We think this is much cheaper more straightforward alternative that solves the federal problem. Because that no point you have to worry about federal government in that because the federal government gets involved with this through the banking system. And so by voiding the banking system you avoid the feds interesting. So given that there have been attempts to solve this problem before and given that while this is a fairly light Bill again in terms of it doesn't really prescribe how it has to be done tribes that there needs to be an option by certain kind of time said how do you feel about the chances of this actually making it through the legislature? I feel really really about it. We're fortunate to find a strong author in family member filtering of San Francisco, and you know, he not only he was the assessor recorder San Francisco if he was a tax collector, he really understands the need for this. Now this works. He also the chair of the state's budget committee and sits on the revenue taxation committee. She is the right guy to be carrying that sell through. He can explain old the problems with a system in how this is ineffective alternative. And we've been engaging the state treasurer's office in boarding station early on I did around table with our treasurer now fueled him off last year in this partially came out. 'cause she asked me can we do this for cannabis? This is the problem when I get sworn in. I'm gonna have to solve instill by working with the treasurer's office in the billiard notice that says with direction from the treasurer's office what this will do is give them until June twenty twenty. So we could have done January deadline that seems a little mean to make the state agencies. Learn about assessed cigarette until June twenty twenty to kinda promulgate regulations. And so if this passes my work doesn't stop in October thirteenth when it signed into law than we will work with agencies to through rulemaking, a set of good standards for how this should work, and then cities can adopt those counties can adopt those, and I think there's two ways this can go forth. Either individuals cities like my own will probably will set up road, all it to accept taxes or cities who don't wanna do that can have the state except taxes on their behalf remitted because of the low. Cost of moving money around here virtual currency. So Elliott, really appreciate your perspective on this. I think it has shed a decent amount light here. One of the question. I have and this is really just Manusha. I'm you know, when we talk about stable coins. It's kinda like a classic things. Do you do you envision this Bill moving forward retaining that language and just applying to sort of any stable pointer isn't going to be like, California issues stable point or or something like that. I think Fiat collateralisation is kind of important know, others other types of stable coins. Make doubt for example, but that's gonna be really complicated through extended. Legislators. It works for the state to say are stable coins. That we accept should be tied one one of the US dollar. It makes a lot of fence for the state government to say that even though we know there are other types to Quin. We might change the definition I'm open to that hurting a working group rented it to expand stable coins. But I believe the state will still require one pag with US dollar. The onuma. Our treasure actually knows more about than you might expect made her own coin. It's called Cal coin. She s she had her staff maker token while she was on the campaign looking for us for this. It's good. It's again, it's it's always it's been very interesting watching the progression of this thing is like the first year, we kind of all go through the same type of type of ramp, right? Where you learn about more things you try out new things, and you kind of dig into stuff like that. So it's exciting to hear that that's happening, frankly, state legislator level or the treasury level. That's especially 'cause the FPDC ruled last year that in California elections, you cannot except for currency anymore. Mid election cycles Knutsson's team had hold his campaign page that was accepted virtual currency. I know that you're involved with other initiatives, and we just talked with Peter van Valkenburgh and calling Gallagher about AB one four nine eight, which is the sort of California bid licenses. We've been calling it. Do you have any things that you wanna share with us about the other is assembly number com run, and he's the one who carried a between six fifty eight which created hell. Is blockchain working group last year? My understanding from his office. They're not trying to create like a framework that's going to quash the industry. They got this language and uniform law commission as well respected in Slater exoticism. Hey, we can work on this on introduced it as a two year Bill, that's really important to know. They're not trying to rush this through with no input from the industry in already been engaging with us on they know were very concerned about a lot of parts of it. So I would say if you are concerned about the bell to get in touch with the author's office or with me as we can kind of captured comments his we have two years to work on. This isn't something that's going to be imposed upon the industry by October at all that's not their intention. They went to work with us to make it better. Great. And we'll have the contact information there in the show notes. The episode. You know? With the show. We never talk about politics, and we're nonpartisan, and it's really just kind of about technology, but I can tell you, and I feel like I should represent that position here. At least, you know, a lot of the concern about California is that because it's so dominated by one party. They do a lot of things that a lot of people on the outside are pretty dumb. And so I think that's a lot of the concern here is that like, for example, I went to buy a couch somewhat recently, and it was very hard to find a couch. The my wife was going to be okay with because California passed a rule in nineteen seventy four that made it so you had to have fire retardant California's such a large market that even though is only role in California every manufacturer that service, the United States made that change proactively. And it turns out that in twenty fifteen they wound up taking out that requirement because it was poisoning people for thirty years. And also it didn't actually change anything about fires. Because the thing that they changed wasn't actually what was causing the fires in the first place that I think. In a nutshell. Sort of describes the big concern that people have about things like this happening in California through California legislature. And it's not that people are bad. It's that one party is in control. And when one party is in control, sometimes things happen with less scrutiny because everybody wants to be on the same team because we're all kind of on the same team. There's not really too much question here. I just wanted to know what do you think about the current political state of California, both someone who's actually in power a little bit here and just to someone who lives there in and tries to make things happen within the space to improve things. I think he'd be amazed at how much of a split. There is within the Democratic Party in California in San Francisco. There's full on two parties. Democrats you've got moderates. And progressives in that you're starting to see that triple up into the state legislator in California at there. There is you know, definitely separate encampments. But I understand the concern. I think that's what my job is. Right. I have to really keep the pressure on mostly my fellow Democrats and explain that to them the impacts of they'll be doing and bring the industry really early on in this Bill cycles that we haven't done it because you're right. This could have no one was paying any attention. It could go for it as the as, but it's there's no Mallon tent as he noticed. So we can work with a very reasonable people do a health tech industry, grow and stay in California. There's a lot of opportunity to work together here, but you just have to pay a lot of attention early. Today's episode of let's start big horn was brought to you by fellow early. Adopters and longtime friends of the show at easy DNS dot com. When you need website, hosting domain management, Email, provisioning or more think easy, DNS dot com. Oh and use coupon code LT. How often it's your first time. Thanks for listening to this episode of let's talk bitcoin content for today show was road by calling Gallagher Pierre van Valkenburgh Allie Medina and Adam LeVine music today. Show was provided by Jared Rubens and greedy beats questions or comments mill Adam at let's talk bitcoin dot com. We'll see next time.

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Cryptocurrency: What You Need To Know Now

1A

34:31 min | Last week

Cryptocurrency: What You Need To Know Now

"This is one a. I'm jen white and washington the cryptocurrency. Bitcoin reached a high of fifty thousand dollars for the first time last week. This comes as tesla. Mastercard and china are all making big moves into the crypto in digital currency space. This many global economists wondering is this a canary in the coalmine moment does bitcoins. Rise reflected decline of the us dollars global influence or going to dive into this question. In just a moment but first we wanna take a moment to acknowledge that a lot of us still fully understand exactly what. Bitcoin actually is so think of bitcoin. As digital cash digital cash is like me being able to email you a one hundred dollars bill from my wallet. No banks no transaction fees. No paperwork people have been trying to create digital cash since the nineteen seventies but the couldn't solve the double spend problem. What is the double spin problem. Well it's simple. If i give you a physical one hundred dollar bill. I can no longer spend that one hundred dollars bill. Only one person can have that one hundred dollar bill in the digital world. This is much more complex. If i send you an. Mp three of my favorite song you now have that mp three and i have that impact. There's nothing to prevent you and me from both having it. It's the same with digital cash and that's a problem but in two thousand eight and anonymous person using the name toshi nakamoto crack the double spend problem and created. Bitcoin had it not komo do this. The answer is blockchain in traditional financial transactions. The bank or save and mo- serve as a middleman middlemen prevent the double spin problem by keeping track of. Who has that one hundred dollars. And he has the be. Maybe i bought with that one hundred dollars. The middleman records that transaction on a centralized ledger controlled by them. And then they communicate with all the other banks and middlemen to coordinate. The transactions on their letters blockchain removes the need for middleman fifth and creates peer to peer digital cash transfers just like exchanging a physical one hundred dollar bill. Here's the tricky bit. It does this by using a distributed ledger. every single transaction is posted out in the open across millions of computers for anyone to see everybody who owns. Bitcoin sees the same ledger and every single change to that major. So if i give you one hundred dollars in bitcoin that transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger for everyone to see so i can no longer spend that one hundred dollars. I can't hat the blockchain either. Because i'd have to hack millions of computers at the exact same time this is. How don tapscott of the blockchain research institute explains it as lampooned by comedian. John oliver the way i like to think of it is that a blockchain is a highly process thing sort of like a chicken mcnugget. And if he wanted to hack it it'd be like turning a chicken mcnuggets into a chicken now. Someday someone will be able to do that too now. It's to be tough on. That is an absolutely horrible. Okay it's kind of gross and that in a nutshell is the basics of how bitcoin works. Okay we've got the basics so let's get into the discussion about the future of digital money joining me now to help us understand. All this is run off a roux. Har- she's a global business columnist with the financial times. Welcome back rana thank you. Thanks for having me also with us. Is peter van valkenburgh. He's director of research at coin center. That's a d c based think tank. That studies cryptocurrencies peter. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Okay peter how do we do with that. Explanation was that was pretty accurate. That was spot on one of the best ones. I've i've heard from major news. The price sound effects. Oh great great. I pass it onto the producer. The price of bitcoin drop below fifty thousand dollars this morning. The exactly what you're buying with that roughly fifty grand when you buy bitcoin. Is it a single coin. Can i buy a fraction of a bitcoin. Sure so you can absolutely by a fraction of a bitcoin. In fact the community was so intent on making everyone understand that. But i think there's a bunch of t shirts that say. You can buy a fraction of a bitcoin because obviously one is now pretty expensive. What you're buying is is basically either one or some fraction of these units that are described on that blockchain that you you described in the opening and you know that blockchain is difficult to alter or difficult to forge extremely difficult like turning a chicken nugget back into a chicken and so you are basically claiming one of a finite number of bitcoins described by that ledger. And because it's scarce because there's a finite number of them if there's positive market demand for them the laws of supply and demand said that there will be a price now. That price is going to change as demand fluctuates. So fewer people seem to want bitcoin today as as a couple days ago. That's why the price went down but you know we can expect certain amount stability given that. The supply never changes run. At how i understand the relationship between the us dollar and cryptocurrency like bitcoin. Is it like exchanging dollars for euros. Well you know. I actually would pull the lens way back and look about. Look this Less than technical sense and more kind of political economy sense. You think about what is money. Money the. Us dollar is is currency that is underwritten by the central bank. By the fed. The euro is underwritten by the european central bank The chinese government underwrites the the r. m. b. so each nation You know or region has a currency and there's a there's a kind of a trust built into it this built on trust in that government and in that country and to me one of the reasons for the rise of crypto currency is not just because it's well suited in many ways to an increasingly digital globally connected economy but it also has to do with A sense of possibly diminished trust certainly amongst the financial community in In governments in national governments. I mean if you look back You know we've we've had the current monetary system for for many decades now. We moved from a gold standard to a- dollar standard But in recent years Central banks the fed has pumped a lot of money into the system. We've also had plenty of political problems at home. A lot of lack of trust in the us government and so that is created a kind of assess. The well is the dollar really as trustworthy as a global currency as we thought. Now some people say oh you know. There's no substitute and that's true. There's no substitute in terms of a global reserve currency. It's not like the euro or the r. and b. you're gonna take over but i see crypto as a kind of creeping Message a little bit of a canary nicole. Line as you as you said in the beginning of your program to political changes that are that are happening. Run a how the us dollar become a global reserve currency in the first place. Well you know. The bretton woods system Several decades ago basically a lotta technocrats got together in a room and decided that the world was going to move from the from a gold standard to a dollar standard that was based on the postwar strength of america. It was based on The desire of A lot of powers that be in the world to kind of connect The the the planet and basically tamped down nationalism. By getting everyone together in a dollar unified system The world is changing. It's becoming more fragmented You know. I think that the washington senses which is essentially what what set the standard is broken. We don't quite have a beijing consensus. We kind of a facebook consensus which is sort of you know the the rise of of digital technology platform power and crypto currencies. Part of that will tesla recently. Bought one point five billion dollars worth of bitcoin. Mastercard is also announced it'll soon except crypto currency payments on its networks. Peter what does that signal to you about these digital currencies place in the mainstream well so you describe it technology real well and hopefully the central value proposition is obvious. Look we've got a financial system that increasingly since one thousand nine hundred. Seventy s is predicated on reliance on a couple of large lumpy corporate banking institutions. And we have to trust them to do their job efficiently and we have to trust them to not censor all transactions not spy transactions and. I don't think anybody actually likes that arrangement. You can see what's going on in china with their central bank digital currency projects. You can look at tesla. Investing in bitcoin l- mastercard. Which is mostly talking about dealing with stable coins which travel on top of the bitcoin network or the cerium network and our dollar back. Actually the the message here is that money is going digital and peer to peer. It's not going to be a thing. That is all about bank balance sheets anymore. It's gonna look a lot more like physical cash moving from person to person and frankly i think that's good for liberty and it's also good for innovation and for efficiency because we don't need these middlemen anymore kenny tweets. I got into crypto in two thousand sixteen to try building college funds for my kiddos between the run and twenty seventeen in two thousand eighteen and the current bull market mission accomplished and then some and michelle emails a few years ago. We decided to accept bitcoin at our restaurant. Having been persuaded by a couple of sharp young men who were promoting bitcoin in our small city. It was problematic tax wise and so we traded it to our son who was a manager at the restaurant dollar for dollar. His investment is now tens of thousands more than the initial. We'll hear more from you. And our guest after the break support for npr and the following message come from better. Help offering online counseling better. Help therapist hassoo. Joe knows that lockdown has been hard on us as humans. We as people are hardwired to connect with others. Which is why this whole time is so difficult. The connection that happens between people and be very powerful and how healing it can be to have a healthy relationship someone to get matched with a counselor within forty eight hours and save ten percent. Go to better help dot com slash one one of the premier science fiction. Writers of the tweet century octavia butler imagined worlds. That were radically different and strikingly similar to the one. We live in today for black history month's special series cautionary tales. And the reasons for hope that octavia butler left us. Listen now to the through line. Podcast from npr. Let's get back to our conversation about bitcoin with this facebook message from lisa. No one knows the future of bitcoin but my small investment has got me smiling every day. But danny emails. Bitcoin is high volatility and risk. The market seems immersed in a speculative bubble when it bursts who will help families and investors should this market be more regulated by an international coalition of countries or multilateral institutions such as the world bank. Rauner your thoughts. Well good luck with that. I mean you know. I think one of the reasons. That crypto is rising is that there's been so little Collaboration between institutions for for many years now You know yeah. In an ideal world. I think that we would have In an ideal world a digital currency that would be a basket currency That would help to balance out the dollar. The euro the r. m. b. I mean that would actually do a lot for helping to rebalance the global economy. And i think you know getting at something that the other guest was getting out we have a world that's becoming in some way of more globally connected but also fragmented in terms of needs and so This idea of peer to peer connection and kind of creating some decentralisation In the way currency flows is is kind of what you want The question is trapped. Really do you. Do you trust who you're dealing with the other side of the transaction. You you right that. There are three main geopolitical centers of power china the us and europe. I'm curious what you think this means for the future of the global financial system I think that we're moving to a world. In which ultimately the dollar will not be the sole global reserve. i think it will stand alongside other currencies and cryptocurrency maybe one of those Certainly i think that The digital r. and b. is going to have a bigger role i think the theorem. They have a bigger role. I mean currency is part of national power and national powell reflects You know bigger political trends right now. We have the new great power conflict between the us and china. I think what's happening with. Currency reflects that run. How much regulation do you believe is appropriate for cryptocurrencies That's a great question. I mean certainly. Certainly as much as the traditional financial system has had now you could whether the traditional financial system is that enough Has had enough regulation. I mean one of the problems. I see an again. I'm going to be a little more abstract. But i think it's i think it's important Markets only work when there is really proper information sharing between two parties. That's always been a problem. I mean i would argue that. That's a huge problem in our traditional financial system. There's a lot of information nathan. The trees some people think that there's There's not enough understanding on the part of all the users as well as regulators about cryptocurrency would note that the The biden administration's nominee for. Sec chair gary gansler who used runcie. Ftc is actually an expert in these topics He was Up mit studying crypto currency. So i expect that that the biden administration. It's going to be looking at this topic quite carefully I would also note that. I'm a little worried that some of the existing problems with Asset inflation vested interests in the financial system are are going to be transferred into this new world of crypto in ways. They're even harder to suss out. So in short i think regulation is a big issue. A peter your organization coin center advocates for government to basically use a light touch when regulating cryptocurrency. Why is that well. We actually specifically advocate for parity with existing financial institution regulation and. You might be surprised and your listeners might be surprised to know that we've had parody for quite some time now so since two thousand and thirteen vinson which is a division of treasury that does anti money laundering policy sort of tracks down people using the financial channels for criminal. Money's has said that if you're helping people buy bitcoin if you're helping people hold bitcoin if you're an exchange as we currently call these things you are a financial institution. You need to know your customers. You need to file suspicious activity reports. The fact of the matter is since two thousand thirteen. Bitcoin transactions are about as regulated as any normal financial transaction at a bank for anti money laundering purposes. Since two thousand fourteen we've had states regulating these exchanges for consumer protection. They have to register as money transmitters which means they need to post a bond fingerprint board of directors go through a complex registration scheme fifty three times over in all the states and territories that license exchanges and so we've got consumer protection regulation akin to traditional financial institution regulations since two thousand fourteen since two thousand sixteen. We've had clarity on whether or not bitcoin is classified as a security and therefore within the jurisdiction of the sec. And you're right. Gary gentler who's going to be it seems the next. Sec chair is an expert in this technology. I've had several conversations with him about the underlying fundamentals of theory and its technology that you know. I've learned a lot from so. I think we're well positioned and regulation should be reasonable it should allow innovation to flourish. That's why you know the. Us was a home for the internet. And the and the the jobs and the technology growth that came out of the growth of the peer to peer internet and the us should also be a welcoming home. You know with guardrails in place for peer to peer finance for bitcoin for theory. Go ahead if i could build on that for a minute. There also doesn't have to be some kind of binary tradeoff between traditional government backed currency and cryptocurrency nikki. Look at what china's doing. They're actually rolling out a digital version of the r&b which is their currency. One could imagine the us government Getting into the digital currency of space. And then you know you could also argue that. That might be a good thing. Ronald thanks for your time. Yeah thank you. Bye-bye discussing crypto currencies. And how they're shaking up the tech sector. We'll have more from you and our guests in a moment support for npr and the following message. Come from better help. Offering online counseling. Better help therapist. Hassoo joe knows that lockdown has been hard on us as humans we as people are hardwired to connect with which is why this whole time is so difficult the connection that happens between people and be very powerful and how healing it can be to have a healthy relationship with someone to get matched with a counselor within forty eight hours and save ten percent. Go to better help dot com slash one in recent mass shootings people have been targeted for who. They are who they worship. But on june twenty eighth eighteen people were targeted for the job. They do at a newspaper listened to the new series from. Npr's embedded about the survivors at the capital gazette. Now let's get back crypto currency. And you're getting a lot of questions about the energy. Used in bitcoin not so encrypted tweets. Please make sure to talk. About how much energy is used in mining bitcoin and managing its transactions. It is completely unconscionable to use a to be using currency that contribute directly to the dire emergency that is climate crisis and we should mention here. Cambridge researchers say. Bitcoin uses more electricity than the country of argentina. And if it was a country it'd be in the top thirty energy users worldwide. What do you make of that critique. Well i mean. The first thing i'd say is that if the dollar and all of the institutions that make the dollar work all of the banks all of the courts were disputes are resolved if all of those institutions were a country. Definitely be in the top five of energy users globally. So you know. Money is expensive quite literally in the form of energy. Because it's a it's an important part of society and it's very difficult to do. A lot of things in society without using energy in the global climate crisis is a very real thing that we need to take pains to to address but we need to use energy for things that are important. And frankly i think you know free exchange and the movement of money across the world is one of those things that's important and i think bitcoin can actually do it with less energy than the current global financial system. I mean are there any conversations about that actively happening in bitcoin world about either how to make it more energy efficient or whether i guess disney adjustments that can be made in how how things are processed so there are different methods of having consensus over the blockchain. There's proof of work and there's proof of stake and proof of work uses the larger amounts of electricity. That's things like bitcoin and proof of stake uses less more like a typical data center. And those are technologies like tassos or cosmos. And maybe a theory which is transitioning from proof of work to prove stake. But the thing about steak is it's less tested than this older cryptographic technology called proof of work and bitcoin is supposed to be this secure asset that you know you don't need to trust somebody and you don't to worry too much about the supply being corrupted or changing unexpectedly so maybe it's worth it to run those expensive calculations that you haven't proof worth the other thing i would say. Is you know. Energy is one thing. there's green energy and there's bad energy there's coal energy and things like that pollute and contribute to global warming. The fact of the matter is because you can run a bitcoin. Minor anywhere in the world and electricity is your main input. You're going to locate wherever the electricity is cheapest and often. Electricity is cheapest in places where there's a low population so not. Many people need electricity. But there's a lot of renewable supply like a big damn geothermal energy you'd be surprised to learn that a lot of bitcoin mining happens in iceland. Were there just. Aren't that many people especially now sadly. No one's going there as a tourist. But there's a lot of geothermal power now it's true that a lot of mining is done in china as well and some of that mining is done using coal because the chinese government subsidizes coal miners. But that's not a bitcoin climate problem that's a shaina climate problem. They're subsidising coal one of the dirtiest ways of making electrcity on the planet. Well let's take a step back though. Indus explain what. Bitcoin mining means and how it relates to energy use. Sure so you know in the intro. We talked about how we've decided to use in the bitcoin peer to peer money system. This blockchain this distributed ledger as opposed to relying on one institution like a bank or You know a financial company to keep a ledger of transactions to solve double problem. Now the question is how do we all everyone on the peer to peer bitcoin network. Come to agree that this is the authoritative state of the network. We're not identifying each other by name. Were not no one else out. There is a known commodity to anyone else. How can we trust each other and the solution that statistically knock emoto whoever he she or they were back in two thousand eight came up with was. We'll have this sort of round robin tournament. Every ten minutes or so someone on the network will be picked to list which transactions will be included in the next block. They can't forge or mess around with the transactions. They can't redirect to themselves but they can choose whether or not to put the valid transactions in the block. And you know how do we come up with a fair method of picking. Who's next because it was just the next. Ip address you know on the internet. A russian scammer would just pretend to be thousands of ip addresses and spam the network. It wouldn't work so instead saito. She came up with this idea. That said the next person to right. A block in the blockchain will be the first person to solve a difficult math equation. That anyone with a commonly available computer and some electricity is able to try and solve. And so it's kind of like a random equation. If you keep guessing a number to fill in x eventually it'll equal. Why and the faster you can guess x. The faster you're likely to find the right answer to the math equation. But that means you'll want to compete with other miners. Use more electricity to have the best chance of being the next minor to create a block. So that's proof of work and it doesn volvo these these mathematical computations. But they're not worthless they're a very fair way of deciding who's going to play this public role of choosing who's transactions globally get added to the next block. We got this tweet from markey says again. Huge amounts of energy are being expended especially in china mining. bitcoin digital currencies. Avoid this mining issue. So like i said first of all you know. It's only an issue if the electricity is coming from a different source a place that pollutes and so frankly. That's the problem with chinese energy policy. Where they subsidize coal and that's the cheapest form of like trinity which draws minors to mind there rather than somewhere with cleaner energy but you know to answer the question directly. Tesco's cosmos polkadot. There's a number of you know. Sort of fun sounding Not those coin. Incidentally but there's a number of fun sounding crypto currencies that are based on this new consensus mechanism. Which is just a fancy word for saying. We all agree on the blockchain using this mechanism. This new consensus mechanism called proof of stake which does not involve the same amount of energy usage. But i would caution you know. We're we're going to have to wait and see over the next ten fifteen years. Even how these technologies sort of settle. And which ones. The market. And policymakers ultimately favor. And i think you know. We'll find out whether bitcoins energy usage is actually worth it because of the good it doesn't will world for decentralising finance or whether maybe we can decentralise finance using other methods like proof of stake. What do you think would cause people to start to see bitcoin as as a better global currency than the us dollar or even gold well. I think it's different. you know. Better is a subjective word. I don't. I don't know if you'd wanna just sleep better or worse because currencies are used for different things you know. The classical definition of money is that it does three things. It's a unit of account like you go to the grocery store. Things are priced in this unit. Five dollars for a gallon of milk. It's a store of value. It might be the way you keep your family's wealth secure you know you you keep it in a money market account or you keep it in cash under the mattress if you're very paranoid or maybe you keep it in gold or equities or come oddities or any number of other investments and then the third thing that money classically is expected to do is be a medium of exchange. It's the way. I give something a value to someone else. That i know they will want. It solves the so called double coincidence of wants. That is a problem with having just barter transactions all the time you want me to be on npr. I wanna give you these oranges it. Maybe you don't want oranges right. I wanna be an npr. Oh we could just pay each other. Not that i'm being picked. Barter doesn't work so we want a medium of exchange right so those three functions of money are what we want now dollars are definitely still the best way to unit of account and medium of exchange. Because they're this great global payment method. Incidently you can have sort of dollar backed assets on top of a theory or even bitcoin. They're called stable coins but the other question. The store of value question may bitcoins. Great for that. And you know your listeners have called in and said you know as far as saving for college and things like that if you bought some four or five years ago. It's been a pretty good deal as a store of value. An extraordinarily good deal actually now. That's not guaranteed to continue. And you should always you know. You should never invest more than you'd be willing to lose as with any speculative investment but frankly bitcoins already vastly superior to gold. I mean gold is what it's a yellow rock and there's only so much of it so that's a scarce supply demand shifts. You have a positive price well. Bitcoin is also very similar. Gold scarce supply demand shifts. And you get a positive price but unlike gold. It's got to teleport or attached to it. I could send it to somebody in singapore right now and they could send it back to me and it would all happen within an hour. Good luck with a. You know a bar of gold. We got this email from stephanie. Who asks i was re recently at a seven eleven notice. They have a bitcoin. Atm next to the regular atm. Go figure. I wondered if i put in a twenty dollar bill. Will i get twenty dollars worth of bitcoin. Peter yeah i mean you got to trust the person who's operating the atm so it's important to note that the bitcoin blockchain is the part that's decentralized where we use strong encryption and mathematical technologies that have been developed as as early as the nineteen sixties and seventies rather than trusting. You know a person. We trust math. But when you're buying bitcoin you're going to be trusting the person who's selling it to you and so there is a person operating that bitcoin. Atm and you have to trust them. That the machines not just gonna eat your twenty dollar bill and not give you the bitcoin that said in the us at least these bitcoin atm. Operators are regulated. As i said earlier estate money transmission licensees and that means they had to post a bond so if they do something malfeasance they'll they'll lose a bunch of money that they bonded they're bonded with by the state colby tweets. Bitcoin gives me a sense of security and allows me to act as my own bank and genetic emailed us this with the bake. My money is insured by the fdic. Should something happen to the bank. One insurance does bitcoin offer. I can explain a little bit more about that. Peter yeah so again. It's it's important to point out that. There's two ways to hold bitcoin now. You can hold your own bitcoin. And then it's kind of like your securing your money by keeping a password keeping password safe and we hear these stories of people who lost a hard drive it got buried in a landfill somewhere and they realize that. They kept their bitcoin password. The private key. It's called annette hard drive and if it's enough bitcoin. Some of these people are thinking of digging up entire landfills. Because there's a hard drive from two thousand and two thousand eleven somewhere amongst all of the decaying garbage so you don't have any recourse if you're holding your own bitcoin. It's kind of like having a thousand dollars in cash in your wallet or under the mattress if your house burns down or you lose your wallet. You've lost your money. Now that's bad for people who are worried about losing their wallet but it's actually good for people who are in parts of the world where they don't have someone else to hold their valuables for them because they don't have a good rule of law in their country. they don't have reputable financial institutions in their country. For somebody in those parts of the world. It might be better for them to actually secure it themselves and not have to worry about trusting financial institution. Now it's true in the us. Our financial institutions are insured by the the us government now. Your bitcoin balances at financial institutions. If you were to. Have someone hold your bitcoin for you. Rather than hold it yourself. They're not fdic insured important to point that out. But as i said these these financial institutions are still regulated. They're regulated state money transmitters so bitcoin balances are about as safe as your balances at say a pay pal or money. Gram or union. Now maybe we want you know. Federal regulation instead of state regulation. Maybe we'd be more comfortable with that. And frankly that's a reasonable proposal. It would mean the federal government would have to come up with a you know money transmission licensing regime. That is an alternative to state. Money transmission licensing. Which could be a political big lift. You'd have to have legislation from congress which no one should ever hold their breath for unfortunately these days. But it's on the table. And you know. Sensible policymakers in dc are discussing. Well we got this tweet from someone who says cryptocurrency initially allowed people from a range of economic backgrounds to participate can it remain that way or will banks and large corporations simply price out access for average or lower income americans. How can people with fewer resources maintain their participation. So you can't really be priced out in this system. It's fundamentally different the thing about bank money and electric payments that aren't crypto the old fashioned electronic payments like pay pal and money. Graham is you have no alternative you have to use a trusted institution and they have to be willing to open an account for you and the sad fact of the matter is that they only open accounts for people. They think they'll make money off of. And that's why we have a huge banked problem in the us and une banked problem globally. Like lots of people just can't convince a bank to open an account for them with bitcoin. If you're willing to hold it yourself and a lot of people are and it can be fairly easy to do to as long as you're careful and the software that you're using his good and guides you through the process of securing your password. The thing about that is. It doesn't matter who you are if you have an internet connection. Maybe you use public wifi even at a library and you have a smartphone which is not cheap. But they're certainly more available than they used to be then. You can access the bitcoin network then you can create a bitcoin addresses. Someone can pay you at that address so the barriers to entry are much much lower and they have more to do with just being able to get technology in your hands than convince some. Solis banker somewhere that that they should open an account for you. We'll be curious what you're watching for. We know treasury secretary janet. Yellen isn't a huge fan of bitcoin. I she's called it. Highly speculative and extremely inefficient. What will you be watching for In in the months and years to come around cryptocurrencies. Shor one of your listeners called in and said that it was a huge tax headache. And i really feel for that person. I've suffered a little of these tax headaches myself. Although frankly i wish i bought more when i got this job. Originally but tax policy could be so much better and it's not that people are trying to evade taxes with bitcoin. It's just that the irs hasn't been clear about how you're supposed to calculate your capital gains using this thing and if they can develop some clarity they'll just get more revenue which is good for them. An ordinary americans won't have to suffer every april trying to figure out how to calculate basis on their doj coin. And that would be better. Peter van valkenburgh director of research at center. That's a think tank. That studies crypto currencies. Peter thanks speaking with us. It's been a pleasure gen. Today's producer was james morrison. Our podcast is produced by barb on. Guillano this program come to you from w. a. m. u. heart of american university in washington distributed by npr. I'm jen white. Thanks for listening and let's talk more soon. This is one a. This message comes from. Npr sponsor capital one. Welcome to banking reimagined capital. One checking and savings accounts have no fees or minimum and top-rated banking app. That lets you manage your money anytime. Anywhere capital one. Na member fdic.

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Jerry Brito: The Case for Electronic Cash in an Open and Free Society

Epicenter

1:09:56 hr | 1 year ago

Jerry Brito: The Case for Electronic Cash in an Open and Free Society

"This epicenter episode to ninety six with guest Jerry. Brito in this episode of epicenter is brought to you by Volterra the gold hedging platform for the cryptic nudity trade gold bitcoin instantly and securely starting at just one milligram the GO-TO VOLTERRA dot gold slash epicenter to get early access to the platform and to start trading anti Microsoft Azer. Do you have an idea for blockchain at but are worried about the time and cost it will take develop. The new asser blockchain. Get is a free download that brings together the tools. You need to get your first running in less than thirty minutes learn more at Aka M._S. slash epicenter. I welcome the epicenter. My name is Joe Roy so today. Our guest is Jerry Brito. Jurado is the Executive Director at Coin Center and previously was at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University so Jerry is it has been in the crypto space since I believe two thousand eleven and he's been quite vocal as lawyer and speaking with lawmakers and regulators for quite a long time <hes> about crypto into blockchain in general but mostly cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin and how U._S. regulations apply to these new crypto currencies and asset types. It was a great interview I mean I think that guy's so sharp and so on point and so we talked about out a whole bunch of things <hes> we talked about this paper that he wrote <hes> recently called the case for digital cash we also talked about libra and everything's been going around there and some of the legal implications and regulatory implications Gheysens with libra and Jerry only had an hour with us so we had to cut it a bit short but we did talk also about the recent fincen guidance around <hes> digital currencies and whether or not <hes> <unk> exchanges and digital currency issuers are not money services business so fascinating interview and we hope you will have Jerry on again in the future to talk more about this kind of stuff on so while preparing for the episode I read through Jerry's blogs and his paper on keys for electronic cash. They jetty has a certain eloquence with words and I found like so many sentences he says that I found I oh let's copied into my email <hes> and I lied to them d to the sentences someday they and so do check out his <hes> his writings as I find their soul velden and so beautifully crafter as we'll have all the links to everything that <hes> we mentioned in a show in the show notes so a couple of things that <hes> we want to mention so I you guys are doing a podcast courses doing a podcast tells him it more yeah so yeah. You've you've started this part gas of recording the chorus one podcast. It's GonNa be quite different. Representive and UH asking here is like when we founded course one one of our key objectives was to create a community of engaged organ haulers that worked together to shape the future of decentralized networks so if you think of a network Brooklyn Cosmos or Solano any of these networks ultimately a network of people and it is important that the people that are holding the tokens that are delegating using using these networks they they are really engaged with it. They're informed the board what's going on in the network informed aboard the governance. That's that's happening there and so <hes> you know in world with three networks in production capacity like four networks attest capacity and we felt felt that we have a lot of insight onto how these networks have been shaped by the decisions that people in these networks are taking <hes> Newfield that orcas could bring out what's the internal chatter title of these networks very well and that we were uniquely suited to bringing out that internal chatter so that's that's what goes podcast seeks to do it's to improve the conversation around these networks and an improved decision making in these networks <hes> it doesn't have a defined format some of the some of the episodes will be interview only but they'll be shorter than epicenter others might cover others might be educational governing coveting certain topics some might have gone as debates and things like that we are still playing around with the format and we would love for you to check the check the episodes out and give us feedback on more on deduction. You're like that podcast podcast go. That sounds great. I haven't listened to it yet. I know those I think three episodes out but looking forward to hearing so I think you can get pretty much anywhere you get podcast right so like itunes and I added into my pocket cast on spotify. I I'm not too sure they could get it either. I'm pretty sure appreciate you can get like just about anywhere you get podcast so yeah yeah subscribe to the to the chorus <hes> the course one podcast Sta in your in your in your podcast just search request one and you'll find it and we'll willing to the show notes in the show notes about with our two events. There's a couple of things happening in the next couple of weeks so I <hes> you guys are you in Brian and sunny earl going to Korea for the biddle Asia Conference. Yes I'm kind of. I'm kind of regretting that I didn't plan to go to this conference now yeah. You'll you missing out a lot out of Romanian bebopping Kimchi yeah but I get to enjoy Paris in the summertime. When there's nobody here which is priceless? Tell tell already it's about <hes> but would you be doing there so there are too many events <hes> one is a hack atom which is a hack us on organized by Inter Chain Foundation and the second is conference or Middle Asia two thousand nineteen and and <hes> coors is a sponsor of the hack atom and epicenter is a media partner for Bill Asia two thousand nineteen. We have a session in the Hack Adam as chorus and we have featuring on a panel. We haven't epicenter sent a panel at the Asia Two Thousand Nineteen conference so you can grab you can meet with Sunny Brian and myself in both of these events and catch up about epicenter as well as scores Okay so the hacker thon is looking here Friday the nineteenth to Sunday the twenty first of July and you can get more info at biddle B. U.. I D. L. Dot Asia. Slash Hack Adam linked to that show notes and the conference is just biddle Asia and the that the panel is happening on the twenty second so Monday it's moderated by Brian and it will feature Adrian brink of Krypton labs sunny <hes> Harriet cow or chow of Irish network and lee-ing lieu of scale laps so if you're in Asia in Seoul for Uh Forbidden Asia he should definitely tend and check out the checkout the panel and let me know how it went because I will not be there unfortunately <hes> but yeah hopefully <hes> hopefully it will be recorded and we'll be able to release it as a as a bonus episode as an epicenter live episode yeah. We'll try to get that we'll try to get that organized and lastly and I will be here at this event. It was mentioned last week. There's dot com happening in August. I believe it is on the twenty first of the twenty third of August in Berlin and I will be there with for the guy and sunny and also I think be doing an epicenter live <hes> episode there and probably a meet beat up in Berlin. If there aren't too many events competing with the army up so you can get twenty percents off by going to dot com to I o and entering the code epicenter Defcon Twenty nineteen that will also also be in the show notes and the last thing I want to mention. I'm not sure if I mentioned it on the show or not. I've been talking about it on twitter quite a lot is that I started the cosmos newsletter about two months ago or so and I've been trying to you keep regular like once every two weeks or so and the newsletter basically just kind of covers everything that's been happening in the cosmos space over over that period so you'll just get a bunch of links to interesting articles software updates dates product updates from all the different wallet APPs validated updates so it's it's just basically a bird's eye view of everything that's been happening in the ecosystem over the last two weeks or so and so to sign up for the newsletter I would love you to sign up. It's at cosmology Collagen Dot e mail. It's really simple and you can sign up there and get my newsletter in your inbox so with that here's interview with Jerry Brito high so we're here with Jerry. Brito Jerry is executive director at Coin Center and previously was the Mercatus Center at George Mason University and today we're going to be speaking with Jerry about a whole lot of things. Including <hes> Coin Center a paper that he wrote titled the Case for Electronic Cash. We'll also talk about libra since it's on everyone's minds and finally we'll talk about the recent fincen guidance with <hes> and how it relates to cryptocurrencies exchanges wallets and things like that so jerry. Thanks for joining Lisa. Thanks for having been so it's a start off wanted to tell us a bit about your background and how you got involved in space sure so I'm a lawyer and my whole career has been in technology policy. I was say before coin centers to Mercatus Center at George Mason University and they're directed <hes> the technology policy programs focused on all kinds of policy issues so <hes> old school telecom issues but also copyright privacy and increasingly towards the end of my time there emerging technology issues so sharing economy drones three D. Printing and then Bitcoin <hes> so I sort of chance upon bitcoin twenty eleven and when I saw it I just fell down rather holes so many people do <hes> and I think what what I saw a cer- my vantage point was all deregulatory questions of bitcoin raised and at the time. Nobody was really <hes> certainly not in D._C.. You see nobody was thinking about these questions. <hes> that you had people sort of main question people are asking on on Bitcoin talk. I remember was how can this be legal because only the federal government has the power to coin money and that's not actually correct and and there's w was really thinking about this and I was just very lucky to be right place right time and start writing about it and talking about it and publishing about it and pretty soon to sort of became a person in D._C.. The folks on Capitol Hill will the agencies would go to to ask questions about bitcoin early on and as a as an early <hes> lawyer in the space in D._C.. Talking with lawmakers and regulators what were some of the questions that they were asking you at that time very early on <hes> they just didn't understand it at all <hes>. It's it was very much. Just how's it work. <hes> Dan sorry getting to questions of is it anonymous <hes> that was of you know it's a question that we would get a lot <hes> and then maybe you started half's things like Silk Road <hes> as he started to get questions <hes> around illicit use <hes> and so early on <hes> I was part of a task force worse that the <hes> center missing exploited children put together with law enforcement folks at different think tanks Dobbin folks in Crypto community and it was a good because the report that came from that has worse ultimately pointed <music> out that Hey <hes> while there are elicit uses a lot of positive uses here there are ways to deal with illicit use et Cetera and eventually that led to the first congressional hearings on cryptocurrency that were I think really good for for Bitcoin because essentially law enforcement and and <hes> The feds said at the hearing is that they had it under control that it's fine <hes> so that's kind of kind of what the questions were always early about early on and what led you to start Coin Center it sort of became up so this is sort of after those hearings actually those hearings were in two thousand thirteen <hes> in late twenty thirteen <hes> <hes> and just as the amount of attention and interest from government on Bitcoin was at its peak <hes> right after that you had now gawks claps <hes> and you had the Silk Road <hes> Boston so you had a lot of attention a lot of it was negative and at the same time really the only institution of Bitcoin had bitcoin foundation was also <hes> kind of a falling away <hes> and so there was no institution <hes> to really basically answer the basic questions of policy-makers need answers and to develop a policy thinking here <hes> and so there was just an obvious gap in so it was just a <hes> <hes> a confluence lots of events where different people have recognized that gap at the same time so Alex Morcos so I think you've had on the show before now's the coin quarterback apologies for Nevada who at the time was in recent Horowitz Myself <hes> or co Better Robin Wiseman <hes> who runs our lobby course we all kind of saw this and we're just thought that needed to happen. 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Every single gram of gold is audited in holdings are made transparently available on their website for anyone to verify and most importantly. It's quite literally your gold. You can choose to have delivered to you at any time to learn more and to get access to brand new V two platform which includes an interface overhaul and trading and Dash Light coin ether and silver good volterra duck gold slash epicenter. That's V. A. U.. L. T. O. R. O.. Dot Gold slash epicenter. We'd like to thankful for the support of the podcast maybe they they just just an update on coin centers. What are some of the key battles that the organization is fighting today from a policy perspective so it's interesting <hes> we have? I think been pretty successful successful on different policy initiatives <hes> that we've been focused on for the past four years <hes> so look big policy issues. I think you probably have talked to peter out previous episodes before was securities regulation and so they're there <hes> after all it was I think for lots of folks that felt it was a pretty slow process but actually I think relative to how the S._e._C. usually operates. It's pretty quick <hes> we got some pretty good clarity <hes> on how <hes> debut crypto currencies as far as securities law so they have stated clearly that Bitcoin ethereal and things like them are not securities so for us. That's just a huge victory. There's still some outstanding questions that I think affect a lot folks <hes> but for us that that was something you know. Bitcoin theorem are securities or not. That was an open question just a little bit over a year and it's not anymore so we're very happy with that there with <hes> Anti Money Laundering <hes> in Bank Secrecy Act regulation we you know been sent came out with guidance and twenty thirteen that explain how they apply the Bank Secrecy Act regulations to crypto currency and the ecosystem but there's a lot of open questions it's about them and we thought that they were sort of continuing to interpret it right but as we'll talk about in a minute they issued guidance months ago where they've kind of clarified that the way the we've been interpreting it suggesting to be interpreted is the way the interpreted so that's it's a huge victory in on the money transmission side which has been a perennial issue for crypto currency. WE'VE WORKED WITH UNIFORM LAW COMMISSION TO DEVELOP A Model Act four state regulation of cryptocurrency money transmitters. That's now making its way two different states California <hes> <hes> cross your fingers might be adopting it soon which would be a huge one <hes> and we've also worked with some members of Congress to introduce deuce <hes> legislation that would preempt state mine transmission licensing for non-custodial users so if you're running <hes> you know some service does not take custody. You wouldn't be subject to my transmission so were pretty pretty happy where we've been and so it's like what battles do we have. <hes> it's pretty good position to be in the two big battles and I wouldn't call them battles but the two big challenges I still see one is tax <hes> the I._R._S.. <hes> unfortunately has continued to drag its feet and issuing guidance about cryptocurrency and so there are a lot of open questions <hes> related to <hes> Dominican transactions raid to hide you do heart fork accounting <hes> lots of different things so there we worked on a report that highlights what are the open questions. We've <hes> glittered this <hes> and briefings to Congress to the treasury and to the I._R._S.. <HES> <HES> UH and we've worked members of Congress to introduce a couple of bills that would try to get some of those problems <hes> so taxes is a live issue for us and the other is it's not so much a battle that we're fighting is just a battle that we think could come and we want to be prepared for it and that has to do with privacy so to date crypto currencies have tended to be very public and transparent and so that's been a very simple thing to explain but uh of course that's not a good solution for anybody. <hes> you want to have individuals to have privacy in their financial transactions in that increasingly. We're GONNA see an upgrade to the crypto currency so that they are private right. It's kind of like what we went from H._p.. H._T._T._p._S. right and that's a good thing <hes> we want to make sure that automakers understand it so <hes> this is this paper I think it will discuss <hes> we've sort of a ticket to step approach. One is my paper where is sort of make the case to policymakers immaturity understand. Why did we call it digital cash which is digital currency that is peer to peer censorship resistance and private it just what a dollar bill is why that's important for a liberal open society which I think we can all agree? We one have <hes> so that's one paper that I wrote. I think it was published January and February this year and the second paper her that we published by Peter and there he sort of explains <hes> if you wanted to put regulations to curtail digital cash <hes> you would find <hes> there are constitutional additional barriers to doing that sort of two one is were saying hey this is a good thing. He should regulate it and number two but if you're trying to regulate understand you're going to be limited in that right. I mean we've also had <hes> Peter Van Valkenburgh also coin center a number of times in the podcast so we're not gonNA spend too much time digging into coin center because we've we've covered that organization at length and there's so many things to talk about but those who are interested in learning more about coin center and sort of diving deeper into what that organization nation does would invite you to listen to our two episodes with Peter Van Valkenburgh which are one eighty two to twenty seven and feel free to get acquaint- Senator Dodd work of course it's also what's interesting to me that when I go through the old blogs of Coin Center Two Thousand Fifteen Moseley many of these blogs out about how law enforcement uses the transparency of Bitcoin. There's a Blah Blah on on that and I think like some of the early arguments that coin center made was around Lavish Bitcoin's transparency to you know embellish exposition in front of law enforcement but it feels as if in two thousand Jose nineteen that that blank because of the technology developments that plank is going to get weaker coin center and therefore there has to be a different trust a different view of arguing for <hes> for the development of these technologies but I I think that's right. I think that's definitely what happened <hes> but I also think that those positions are completely consistent so in two thousand fifteen when a member of Congress would come and ask us and say hey is bitcoin anonymous or can police <hes> catch catch bad guys. The correct answer is no it's not anonymous and let me explain to you how indeed law enforcement has used the blockchain <hes> with forensic analysis to catch back us and that satisfies a member of Congress of course in the back. In my mind I might think might speculate but I can also imagine that in the future it's not always going to be anonymous <hes> and so we always knew that some point we would have to address that and so that time has finally come <hes> <hes> <hes> and so that's what we're doing interesting so I think you've never covered the stopping with Peter so it would be nice to start with you and it's about this paper which is the case for electronic cash. What's the main trust and the argument of this of this paper chirp so the papers actually not completely about cryptocurrency cryptocurrency Kinda comes at a variant and the paper is actually just a case takeaway electronic? It's really just a case for cash because I was telling you before when I write a paper. I usually try to imagine a reader that I'm writing for and in this case my reader <hes> was a mid level official at a law enforcement agency see Orange Regulatory Agency. Somebody who maybe instinctively thinks cash is something that maybe could be eliminated where that is problematic because they're always dealing with bad guys and have to say no actually Ashley cash is essential to a liberal open society which is which the preservation of which is the reason that many folks governments who are true Patriots <hes> go into government service in law enforcement service to protect right. They want to preserve an open liberal society that care about the values this country was founded upon <hes> and and that's what they're dedicating their lives to preserving and I need to explain to them that cash is an essential component of that and that's what the paper tries to do and the argument is pretty straightforward and I think it's one that <hes> I think it's pretty intuitive to cryptocurrency enthusiasts but I think UH regular folks folks in government probably don't think about it and it's we are moving to an increasingly cashless society and I describe how we're seeing more and more transactions moving <hes> to <hes> <hes> basically credit cards or mobile payments systems and you can look at certain countries Nordic countries for example Korea. <hes> where cash at this point is really a relic right. It's something that is very rare. <hes> A._T._M.'s are rear bank branches. Don't carry cash and everywhere you go you basically <hes> pay with a credit card in the look at you weird if you pay with cash <hes> and when I point out is in world that a cashless society is an intermediate society because if you remove cash as an option that means every single transaction that you do is going to be inter mediated by by some bank or some <hes> corporation some payment provider and what that means is that every transaction is going to be ASE railed. It's going to be seen by a third party and be <hes> transaction <music> <hes> can be bought or I selectively war you can be blocked completely from the ability to <hes> transact when you have that <hes> that is a real challenge to a Liberal Open Society where an answer that I I basically give some examples of how for example in China <hes> this is being used in China's really remarkable case study because in the span of really just a few years <hes> cash has been almost eliminated people have just moved completely to using <hes> <hes> alipay and we chat and <hes> and those two <hes> <hes> account for I think like ninety percent of all mobile payments then <hes> in China and so what you have there is a is a world where all transactions or resolve is to companies which are basically means you're visible to <hes> the state <hes> and they will block you if you're trying to do things are not in the words of what an executive from Allie pay are not healthy <hes> the other thing that they'll do is that they the feeds into the Chinese social credit scoring system and this means that you know what you buy what you do is going to feed into <hes> <hes> your your social credit score that then <hes> will go into what schools you can send your kids to <hes> what lights you can take <hes> et Cetera so really this is kind of <hes> having an intermediate society <hes> really opens up a door for more authoritarian <hes> <hes> control of one's life. That's the state control you also have corporate <hes> <hes> potential <hes> misuse and the example I gave is a target <hes>. There is a a case study that that I highlight where there was a <hes> this happened. <hes> I think like five years ago there was a <hes> a father of a teenage girl who walked into target. This is the New York Times <hes> related this <hes> walked into the store and basically chewed out the manager said you know he had a a mailer in his hand. <hes> that was for baby products right and said what are you trying to do was sent to my house address to my daughter and <hes> she is sixteen years old. What are you trying to do get her want her music she she should be pregnant? What would as a manager looked at it? He didn't know what it was. He apologized caused pieces. I Dunno father went away. A couple of days later. Manager called the father and said hey just calling to apologize again and father said no actually I owe you. An apology turns out. There's been some activity my house I didn't know about I am daughters. Do <hes> in a couple months <hes> how did target no that that girl was pregnant they know because every time you buy something at target target is tracking you and calm and and <hes> making a dossier on you <hes> and so what they would do <hes> is when you use. You don't even have to opt into this by the way this is completely not you don't have there's there's no opt into this. <hes> whenever you shop at target you are assigned customer number unbeknownst <hes> and this is tied to for example whatever credit card use that is associated with you and Dickie list of everything <hes> that you buy and so what target did is they <hes> they had a program for expecting mothers where they give discounts and stuff and so they knew that this cohort of people who had audited <hes> pregnant day that basically just correllated related purchasing <hes> activity of those people who they knew were pregnant with their wider just universe of customers and using data mining Dick figure out quite specifically who was pregnant and even when they were probably do right based on just the shopping habits what you were buying. You're buying diapers. It could just be that you're buying you know <hes> aloe Vera Lotina chocolate right that that might be a trigger under <hes> and so this girl was <hes> deprived of her privacy and shoes deprived of autonomy right shoes deprived of her ability to tell her father about her pregnancy on her own terms and she didn't opt into into anything so what is the only option that you have if you don't want to participate in that its cash right she could have paid in cash to as we move to an increasingly cashless world we need to preserve a form of cash and that's as we all know that's cryptocurrency right. That's cash that is to me. Cash is does not just mean money. Cash means very specific kind of money. It's money that is person to person bearer it is censorship resistant <hes> permission list and it is private and so <hes> that's important I mean cash cash is one option. Another option is like having companies that don't like exploit data and especially for something as sensitive touchy like a possible pregnancy like I mean it just feels totally unethical and I mean if you from the European perspective just seems completely absurd that this actually happen <hes> there's something kind of paradoxical though but when you're talking about the the idea that money a cashless society tends more towards surveillance and and payments potentially being blocked of course like this is rampant in China. I saw a video recently. I don't know if this was real or not. I always question these videos but there was a video of someone seemingly in China paying just with like a face I._D.. So with no oh yeah looking at a camera and someone like there's some sort of facial recognition and their account as being debited. I don't know if this is true or if it's not I'm sure it's coming soon but the this this idea obviously make sense but if you're addressing bring your paper to law enforcement officer or a lawmaker. It seems like these are things that they from from our perspectives. These are things that they would probably want right like law enforcement professionals uh-huh. Hey It's great that I can track the bad guys and a lawmaker of course yeah. We want to block people that are not. I don't know like paying the taxes or you know. It seems like these are tools that given the regulatory landscape Fincen and all the A._M.. L. A. K._Y._C. and etcetera like it seems that those directives go in the sense. I don't think so actually yes. I think that's our initial instinct right is to say we I do want to be able to track. We do want to be able to block. I want to be able to do my job well and efficiently and so that's initial instinct and so but what does paper tries to do is to point out to them what you know if we eliminated cash that your job could be very easy and you got all the tax cheats. What are you giving up and when you point that out to them people who work at sense people who work in law enforcement there again as I say the reason they're in those jobs is because they're patriots who who care about this country and the values of this country was founded on navy point out to them <hes>? Do you want to be more like China or do you want to be more like with the U._S.. Suspect to be they get it. They don't WanNa be like China right. They want to be able to survey people with a quarter right. The understand that with a quarter is important rented. They're they're not <hes> for. Getting rid of court orders right so I think that's what you have to point out to them and so look I point out to them in the paper. There's another <hes> sort of case study that I point out that I think for a policymaker dish understand so I explain what's what's happening in New York with the National Rifle Association right so the N._R._A.. <hes> whatever you think about the N._R._A.. Whatever you may think about <hes> gun ownership or whatever the N._R._A. is a what is it is a Free Association of People's Nonprofit Association of people that engages in what engages in free speech all the N._R._A.? Does is publish right publish papers they lobby Congress right so they're engaging in constitutionally protected activity to do what to stand up for another <hes> enumerated constitutional rights which is a right to bear arms so what they're doing is basically just a nonprofit engaging free speech. That's the N._R._A.. <hes> whether whether you like him or not the governor of New York Andrew Cuomo after a school shooting he put out a press release where he announced a he was directing the Department of Financial Services and New York D._F._S. to basically tell all financial institutions that do business in New York which means all institutions in the world right to essentially essentially stopped doing business with the N._R._A.. Right or their <hes> basically their licensing would be in jeopardy. If you cannot get a financial institution that does business with New York to service you you your debt. You're out of business completely right. So what is this is governor of New York using his power <hes> to basically silence and shutdown a political opponent own it because he doesn't like their political views because they're doing anything wrong. It's just shut them down completely so today that's Andrew Cuomo and the N._R._A.. Tomorrow it could be Alabama and planned parenthood right. We don't want that in this country the U._S.. centric view is I must say because I mean it was like yeah from this side of the pond. It just seems of course of course you want to stop the N._R._A.. But yeah I understand from like the U._S.. Respected under you're under the under the constitution for speech that yes this does seem cert yeah and you're right so so were definitely making <hes> U._S.. centric arguments here right the these arguments may not be <hes> very persuasive to people in China. Maybe not people in France either <hes> but yeah so what does the N._R._A.. Engaging engaging in free speech you know like four or five years back I would have had difficulty empathizing with this argument Darren but I empathize with this argument ever since I've founded a cryptocurrency company and have had to search for bank accounts in the U._S.. Just me it's like a huge challenge. Ah After you get a bank account every three months. There'll be a an email from your bank asking you a bunch of questions and you wonder am. I going to be shut down now. You're paying all the taxes you have all of all of your legal documents in order. <hes> you have lawyers in your team everything but still it's a constant worry that one of these few banks that are willing to give a bank guard is going to shut it down and then he can e completely ostracized from the American can financial system. I E this. This is a possibility view. We lived through as lawyer binding member of the U._S.. Society I lived through this possibility and then you realize if I'm <music> I'm living through it. Maybe there have been other people that are also living through situations like these and then then you realize that all the currencies actually tool for freedom because like there are people like me they might be doing other things cryptocurrency but they have this risk and the stool selves to alleviate that risk. I think it's right and look you understand from that position. If you don't have a bank account you you can't do business and you're not doing anything wrong. You're doing everything by the book as you say <hes> and because you're perceived as a risk you're just shut out like basically you can't engage in business we can then query whether you should be seen as a risk or not but put that aside in the case of you know the case with New York the reason the N._R._A.'s being targeted is for their political views period like there's no there's a risk or not they're not doing anything except upped publishing books and videos and the governor's deciding to single amount unilaterally and say we're going to just turn you off right and so- pointing that out to folks who otherwise might say yeah this is a great tool for law and order is to be able to track and shutdown people when you point out to them yet but then somebody could just use that and for political purpose you know they might begin to understand and and look we don't say I don't think the cryptocurrency for it to be a tool for freedom as you say people have to switch completely the crypto currency it just has to be an option has to be an escape valve right so that if you're engaging in activities that might be politically correct until he wants to shut down where you don't WanNa be <hes> observed your this girl you don't want to in a cashless society. We no longer have paper nuts. You need to have that option right the people people into routine that auction to transact privately to transact such persistent fashion yes this this I absolutely agree with and <hes> wholeheartedly. I mean think that like of course we need to have that option. Ryan and there are still strongholds like Germany for instance is is a place where I although it frustrates the hell out of me every step me go there have to remember to take out a bunch of cash before I go there and I'm not quite often and I still forget to do it but yeah it is after a while it does feel sort of satisfying satisfying to be able to say hey like I I people here. Hold this this very dearly like they. They hold this this right to pay cash very dearly and it is appearing because even the show are passing directives to try to make car payments easier cheaper faster and at some point even here in France. It's like it's illegal to pay for anything more than a thousand euros. I think so we do see this clampdown on cash or of Oh totally it's Germany's very interesting <hes> because as you say it's it's the opposite to country that until a a couple years ago you could not pay in anything except cash at all D- were Akia did not accept anything except Tash which is amazing right <hes> so I'll have to tell you this right many places in Germany or for Cash Lohan what's interesting about that is why is that and I you know I I don't know we should ask them if our German friends but my intuition is that it has to do with Germany's experience with two kinds of authoritarian God reshapes right there Germany was subjected to both communism and Nazism <hes> and they're very sensitive to the kind of control that you can experience that way and you know they. They tried to always retain <hes> that option. It's interesting you point out that in France you can't pay in cash for certain things above <hes> something that I discovered in my research were this paper. Is that <hes> the reason you had a five hundred. You're a note <hes> which is something that somebody members of the <hes> the European Union trying to get rid of is because Germany insisted on <hes> and Germany would have had it thousand euro note <hes> but we're talk down to just having a five hundred euro and that is ultimately got get faced out yeah of course and the five year five hundred zero is in fact quite bit for organized crime so I think it probably will get face out just for because Ashir like numbers all right like nobody uses a five hundred year note I I've never even seen one so this episode epicenter is brought to you by Microsoft and the Azure blockchain workbench getting your blockchain getting from the Whiteboard to production can be a big undertaking and something as simple as connecting your blockchain to IOT devices or existing earpiece systems is a project in the self will the folks at Microsoft had you covered you already know but the Azure blockchain workbench and how easy it makes EXP bootstrapping your blockchain network pre configured with all the cloud services you need for your enterprise up. Their new development kit is the I._S._D.. For blockchain's suppose you want to collect data from someone in a remote location yes a mess and half that data package in a transaction action for Your Hyper Ledger Fabric blockchain development kit allows you to build this integration in just a few steps in a simple drag and drop interface. Here's another great example. Perhaps your institution working with the theory and rely on C._S._v. file sent by email one click and you can parse these files and have the data embedded in transactions whatever you're working with the deaf can read transform and act on the data to learn more and to build your first application and less than thirty minutes visit Aka Dot M._S. slash epicenter and be sure to follow them on twitter at M._S._F.. Blockchain we'd like to thank Microsoft Azure for their supportive epicenter so moving on to our next topic today which is libra era of course libra was announced a couple of weeks ago June and it's generated a whole lot of buzz and a claim and anger and a whole lot of things a whole lot of opinions <music> <hes> from a whole lot of different angles and perspectives. I'd like to ask you what are your thoughts on libra at a high level and a high level. It's just very interesting what they're doing. <hes> I think bottom line it's a net positive for crypto currency. If it launches and a gets adoption <hes> where people begin to get used to having a mobile wallet <hes> that were they have <hes> a token that is not denominated in their country's currency rights to get used to that <hes> you can imagine that that <hes> opens up the idea space for other crypto currencies so that's I saw a net plus on the flip side. I'm a little concerned <hes> on regulatory fronts or on the on the policy front that <hes> you know cryptocurrency has been sort of a minor policy issue in D._C.. Again Very U._S.. centric but I can imagine this is the same in capitals around cryptocurrency is an issue that policymakers <hes> pay attention to but it's not the top issue and <hes>. <hes> there isn't any major player that is sort of like the base of Crypto you have lots of different folks building lots of different things <hes> and so you have this vibrant ecosystem and then you have facebook coming in with a project like this <hes>. I think there is a possibility that one cryptocurrency all of a sudden gets a lot of attention for policymakers the groups <hes> and number two facebook becomes the base of cryptocurrency even though what the project that their building is I would say not a cryptocurrency and completely unlike any of these other things and so we've begun in to see <hes> folks who reach out to us a little confused about the distinction between something like libra and Bitcoin Earth area and so part of what we've been trying to do is explain. These things are completely different. There's some similarities but they're very different and what's important is those technical differences drive different policy outcomes explain how in your view libra different bitcoin and is Lebron cash no <hes> I would say <hes> Lebron's not cash <hes>. I'll tell you how it's different <hes> number one bitcoin does not have a company that issues it and redeems right. Ah bitcoins emerge <hes> from <hes> a network of peers who joined together and validate transactions for each other so so there's no company that controls runs were issues. The bitcoins right <hes> bitcoins do not have a reserve of quote Unquote Real World Assets <hes> that back the token and that are redeemable right that is what Libro is right so libra has is a company that runs the it's called Labor Association <hes> that company <hes> issues the crypto that wouldn't issues that digital currency and manages a fund assets that back that Thang these are completely different things one is a company issuing a token <hes> the other is a network that is open permission list. Nobody owns or controls <hes> and again these he's <hes> have would you think would have completely different regulatory regimes whereas because in one case there are intermediaries and because our no intermediaries <hes> it poses fewer risks risks because there fewer risks there's less regulation is necessary with the other there is a major intermediary the operator the administrator of the <hes> network that also custody manages a fund the real world assets and so that's a risk and that's where regulation might be appropriate so so you're saying that that the the Libra Association which is this consortium of companies among which easy Uber facebook book as Eliade and a whole whole bunch of others are essentially the administrators of the cryptocurrency because they issue the currency so based on this basket of currencies and real world assets the the currency the Labor currency will get its value and then presumably there will be issuance and I don't know if you WANNA call it quantitative easing on the other side like some whatever the a destruction of the currency in order to assure a stable price at which point you think because paper does say that they want to make it more decentralized but it should that logic then become a smart contract or governed by smart contract that is administered by the libra blockchain and the administered the the different companies part of the consortium or merely validated so here's something akin to Cosmos at which point do this this this association association ceased to become an administrator and just you know another another cryptocurrency that just happens to have a mechanism that adjusts based on you know Oracle's that fetch the to the price of other assets. I think the the main main sticking point for as you know <hes> belieber association in its documentation to make a commitment to move towards a permission list network within five years. I think that's fantastic. I really struggled to see how that's going to be possible. <hes> while maintaining everything else that the that is true about Lebron. I think that there are technical challenges about how you do on chain governance <hes> <hes> but I think those are probably solvable. I think that there are <hes> incentive problems because you've got a couple dozen companies at the moment who have paid ten million dollars to be investors libra and they are going to be paid. Hey back based on the interest of the reserve right in order for us to become permission list. They're going to have to grow the number of alligators two hundred thousand infinity right well that means that they are going to just voluntarily give up their shares in the ownership and <hes> dividends of the Reserve so query what incentive they have to do that but putting all that aside as soon as they decided outside of their heart. They just want to give that up the last thing that I think makes this. <hes> kind of a possible is if you have a reserve of real world assets those real world assets are going to be kept where they're going to be kept at financial institutions financial institutions do not <hes> open and maintain bank accounts for doubts right there has to be a person legal persons name who owns the assets that backs the currency. That's going to always be a company run by people maybe those people want to <hes> always abide by the decisions of the Dow up the network work but what are they gonNA quarter so as long as as long as this is backed by real world funds kept in financial institutions. It's not going to be provisional as I I don't see how let me put it up. Take it back. I don't see how your purpose one way. You might see it is if you I can imagine completely permission list Central Bank coins being issued then you can imagine what something like what you're doing but we don't have that to David Avocado on this yeah that's right. It's almost as if to be permission lists to avoid the regulatory regimes you need to have assets that's unfettered to any of the any of the systems like bitcoin cash if you if you ever it it will reside died in some financial institution and then they can be called orders and they always need to be like these people that are that have that bank account and that will always be this point of control as Asian control trust in that system and you can get it. I think that's right and I think that that brings up basically two types of regulation. One is control in a sense of being told you can't you have to freeze these particular address addressing these funds. Were you have to block these transactions or whatever that kind of control <hes> but I think also if you are managing you don't have bitcoin right libra. There is a company that has a fund of billions of dollars potentially right hundreds of billions of dollars so this is very successful of whose money the public money and they're managing it for the benefit of the public and to keep a promise that they're going to manage to have a stable Bali. That's a big responsibility that they're taking on and I think most governments would see that as an activity that probably would be regulated. An interesting question is well how who's regulator what's right regulation. What's what is libra? I think is a very interesting question. What's the U._S.? centric answer to to who regulates Lebron the U._S.. Yeah it's not clear so you might think you know. Is it a bank. <hes> it looks like a shadow bank right and in some sense <hes> <hes> it's not a bank because it doesn't have a bank charter right <hes>. Is it a money transmitter <hes> or in into European <hes> <hes> senses of new money company. I'm not sure it can be because <hes> state money transmission number one it would mean deliver association would have to go state by state. Get money transmission licenses which is not doing Kaliba. These subsidiary facebook book is <hes> Lieber Association. <hes> is not <hes> if they did money transmitters are only permitted to keep the their customer funds and Berry <hes> specific specified <hes> permissible investments right this is a problem acquaintance had in <hes> Wyoming in Washington state and Hawaii where Bitcoin was not one of the permissible investments listed and so they would have to hold old like I one hundred percent reserve requirement so they just got out of those nights so these are very very limited things that you can keep the money in as far as I understand foreign currency and foreign issued government debt is not one of the things that's permitted so I'm not sure how that could be a money transport. So what are they. The thing that just jumps out to me is if you take away all of the block chain crypto and tech lingo from what they're doing and you look at the activity. What is the to doing? What are they doing? They're taking money from the public and they are investing in a fund of foreign currencies and government debt so so that everybody has a share of that basically and they're actively managing this fund to Maintain Valley. What is that I mean? It sounds to me like a mutual fund so that's the security right and if you look at the definition of security in in the Securities Act it's there are a lot of broad is like debt instruments. Just plainly are securities so this is you know it could be a security and if it's a security how does it work as a currency because securities can only be traded on national security exchanges so anyhow it's just there's a lot of questions there that to be sorted out through all you heard it here folks sleep as a security purity. I'm not saying it is. I'm saying I don't understand I I wanted to. I'm saying tell me why why abroad that's really interesting. I mean th the most interesting part of that is in how to use a security as money and and I think that's A. The question that lawmakers will struggle with for and Lebron Charlie we'll start with for a while. There was one point that I want to bring up which is which which is interesting and you sort of touched on it and that's how Ca- libra is going actually getting all these transmitter licenses but but the Association Association is not and you tweeted in response to an interview on the unchained podcast with Laura Hsien where she interviewed Dante Sparta who's the head of policy libra and she asked him okay well then libra. If libra regulated elated they have to abide by by Afaq sanctions lists then there's a question of okay what if the U._S. for instance wants to sanction Iran and Europe doesn't and in his answer was well. That's that's not up to the <hes> that's not up to <hes> the the association that's really up to the companies that are operating as money services businesses so for instance Culebra and presumably others that are operating wallets and and applications user applications but the the the the the association isn't concerned with this thing and you are you that he was probably wrong about that. Could you break that down for us sure and look I mean I hate to be this guy but it's not so much in arguing against it. I'm just asking questions as they say because I don't understand how it could be otherwise so look. You've got to Lieber Association. Libra Association is again the company that that is issuing the coins and redeeming them <hes> under Vincent's guidance accompanied that issues redeems digital currency is a money transmitter is an administrator of a centralized virtual currency and so would be subject to B._S._A.. BANK SECRECY ACT REGULATION RIGHT SO I. I don't see how they escape that if you look at I think what we were up sleep association is saying is that the on ramps off off-ramps to <hes> to libra will be regulated and that's absolutely true. This is the same thing as bitcoin right so <hes> bitcoin network is not regulated but coin base or fix whoever it may be these are regulated than they do have to not customers and they do have to do <hes> specialty reports and arrest and Lebron's right when they say that the honors and the off-ramps exchanges that trade libra will we'll be regulated but they sort of did the question is what about the Lieber Association right and so with facebook or sorry with with Bitcoin fach a few months ago added a few bitcoin addresses to the sanctions list right just D- addresses themselves and so this means regulated parties have an obligation fact not regulated parties. Everybody has an obligation third everybody in the U._S.. Anyway All U._S.. Persons have love an obligation to not do business with those addresses and if they happen to do <hes> by mistake they need to report it immediately right so that's the kind of thing that coin basin but biff necks and the rest will block transactions with those addresses but there is no company there is no bitcoin company that can do that at the network master level right with brother it's and so so I don't see how they escaped a quarter or <hes> or just a having to comply with Oh back and block sanctioned addresses does that make sense the really makes no sense that actually because they have the ability right as the validates Dick push off where update that blocks particular addresses that have been dull to and then we have the obligation into if they have the ability then they obligation with bitcoin. There's no ability right so that's why there's an obligation right so very quickly again on this topic of Libra for defense conscious of your time here so there's there's been a lot of pushback by by regulators and lawmakers in the U._S. and in Europe particularly in the U._S.. There is this <hes> this <hes> committee on financial services who wrote a letter to <hes> mark Zuckerberg Shell Sanders and Marcus asking them to stop all development of Libra. What does this letter mean in your opinion? I think this letter means that politicians members of Congress from both parties <hes> really really don't like facebook <hes> and you know God to different parties have different reasons to be upset with facebook but that's just a political the fact that <hes> members of Congress from both parties <hes> just do not trust facebook do not like facebook and so when they <hes> are confronted with this announcement of we're going to build a new global currency. I you know I think that they are you know kind of scoring political points a little bit <hes> but I think also <hes> <hes> you know expressing their distrust. I facebook member of Congress letter and ask you to stop doing something that carries no weight obviously and I think it is actually a little bit un-american to use of the phrase that without any legal process who toll to stop until Congress can think about what you're doing us not the way things work here <hes> that said I think it kind of highlights the political reality facebook <hes> basis ready interesting. I think like libra experiment is going to teach all of us so much about how he systems are going to work and I suspect the conclusion in the end might well be that's. That's why Bitcoin is designed. I think you might be right yeah so <hes> we onto the defense and so so vincent recently defensively Financial Crimes Enforcement Network they recently issued some guidance on how the Bank Secrecy Act applies to cryptocurrencies issues irt so we like to unpack this guidance but before we unpack this guidance. Perhaps it's nice to know about like what is insane. What is it settled and what does it regulate sure so in the U._S.? You have to Bank Secrecy Act the Bank Secrecy Act is a financial surveillance statute it requires financial institutions to know their customers brought to register <hes> with Vinson <hes> and to provide information suspicious activity reports to fence until Vince is the regulatory agency within Treasury that basically manages the Bank Secrecy Act right so it makes sure that all financial institutions are doing k._y._C. reporting to them etc and so when you have cryptocurrency the question is is what obligations and to and to which actors in the Crypto Currency Space <hes> does the Bank Secrecy Act apply right who has what obligations <hes> Invinci- In twenty thirteen was the first federal agency to come out with any sort of official pronouncement on cryptocurrency Bitcoin at the time what it said is basically the network itself has no obligations because there's no buddy running it right but the on ramps and off ramps exchangers cryptocurrency have our basically our financials to their money transmitters and so therefore their financial institutions that are regulated basically had three categories of people right it said your users of cryptocurrency and users of crypto currency have no obligations are exchanges of cryptocurrency and they have regulations and then it has the third category which does not apply to Bitcoin but only applies at the time to things like eagled Liberty Reserve Zurve called administrators and administrators are those who administer a centralized virtual currency and put in circulation and redeemed from circulation digital currency and they are also <hes> B._S._A.. Regular so they put this guidance on twenty thirteen and it's a pretty <hes> I think fear summit <hes> for who has what obligations and Crypto but they were all kinds of questions that once you start applying that to what people are doing in a real world they're kind of open questions questions that remain right so is a decks a <hes> a money transmitter etc <hes> and what they did just a few months ago with your new guidance is nothing changed right from the from the existing guidance they he just restated the guidance as it wasn't twenty thirteen but answered a lot of the questions that have sort of been a bubbling up since two thousand thirteen and they waited did that is by taking the original guidance and applying it to <hes> fact patterns from business models that have emerged and say okay well. How does it apply to this house? The blight of this and <hes> we were very happy to see that the approach they took matches were coin center has been advocating for since twenty thirteen. So what have you guys been advocating in. What are some of the major <hes> points in this guidance so the the the big headline takeaway is that if you are simply building software writing software <hes> and deploying software <hes> you're not regulated right <hes> it is if only if you're engaging in money transmission that you're regulated and money transmission means <hes> receiving and sending I think <hes> and that making that super clear I think is the big takeaway? There's still some ambiguities kind of remain because so imagine that you build a decks building and pointed tax <hes> may not be <hes> my transmission but then if you use it that might be money transmission so <hes> so interesting <hes> but look I think it's again a pretty fair settlement of of where <hes> we've got flakes and I would encourage our listeners to <hes> to go to coin centers article detailing the contents of guidance willing to that in the show notes and a whole bunch of other content that Jerry Coyne Center have written N- including Jerry's tweet storms about libra which are always great to read Jerry. Thanks very much for joining us today. They my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode we we released new episodes every week. You can find subscribe to the show on Itunes spotify youtube sound cloud or wherever you listen to podcasts and Google home or Alexa device you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast Epicenter Dot TV we subscribed for a full list of places where you can watch and listen while you're there be sure to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as the released. If you want to interact with us guest or the podcast listeners you can follow us on twitter and please leave us a review on it.

cryptocurrency Coin Center libra Brito Jerry China Volterra Microsoft D._C Jerry Brito Congress New York Peter Van Valkenburgh George Mason University twitter Brian France
Why the Congressional Hearings on Facebook's Libra Were Good for Bitcoin - Ep.82

Unconfirmed: Insights and Analysis From the Top Minds in Crypto

42:15 min | 1 year ago

Why the Congressional Hearings on Facebook's Libra Were Good for Bitcoin - Ep.82

"Hi everyone welcome to unconfirmed the podcast reveals how the MARTINIS and Crypto are reacting to the week's top headlines inside scoop on what they see on the horizon on your host Laura Shit thanks to everyone who participated in our survey we got lots of great and helpful responses and many of you said really nice things about the show so thank you for that we have five winners of the free concept bitcoin lightning nodes plus a free Europe Costas Gold membership including a multi six security APP for iphone and Android tresor hardware Wallet Mukasa Faraday Bag and twenty four seven support. The winners are Andy from Denver Gabby civiles Henry Elder Julian Gall and Rosemary Heather congratulations and thanks nice to everyone who participated in the survey and thanks also to cost for this donation. If you're making vacation plans please consider the cripple weekend retreat. I'm teaching with Melting de Beers of quaint shares and also Senate hearing not sending House hearing fame and Jolla Impreza future perfect ventures. It'll be at the beautiful Omega Institute in Rhinebeck New York from September twentieth so the twenty second be sure to check out the show notes for the link to sign up also if you're not yet sign up for my weekly Newsletter Code Unchain PODCAST PODCAST DOT COM and you can sign up right on the homepage don't forget that unchained and unconfirmed are also on Youtube and you can go there to subscribe to be alerted to all the latest episodes of both podcasts Cypher trees cutting edge cryptocurrency intelligence gents powered anti money laundering blockchain analytics and threat Intel leading exchanges virtual currency businesses banks and regulators themselves use Cypher trees to comply with regulation and to monitor compliance Crypto Dot com is the place you can buy Crypto at true cost earn up to eight percent per year on your B._T._c. e t h Exxon P. and more installed the CRYPTO DOT COM APP now. Today's guest is Peter Peter Van Valkenburgh the Director of research at Coin Center. Welcome Peter Thanks for having me Laura. This has been a huge week for cryptocurrency and the span of a week. We've had the Federal Reserve Chair commenting on Bitcoin President tweeting about out Bitcoin cryptocurrencies and Libra B.'s House and Senate a long hearings on libra which also touched on bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. What would you say is the significance of all this government activity regarding upto well so far nothing but a lot has yet to be seen so coin center where I work with started five years ago sort of like the explicit goal of educating people about the technology so that if one day something big happened the response would be reasonable and you know? What did we mean by big whenever we thought about that? We thought you know this is money. So it's always possible that someone will use it to do something terrible like fund terrorism or something like that so if if bitcoin or some crypto currency was used in an attack or something would people react <hes> you know to strongly or would they say look this is a tragedy but we can't blame the sort of purpose agnostic nick technologies that people use to to maybe support these acts and there are reasonable good regulations already in place so so we were always worried about that black swan event where we'd want educated people people in Congress and in the agencies to be level headed but it turns out that the Black Swan event that got everybody interested in crypto currency finally was facebook deciding that they would release what what but they've occasionally called the crypto currency. What would I would argue and melt him in her excellent House testimony yesterday argued <hes> is not a crypto currency? It's more of a digital currency like world of warcraft gold or something like that but that that's the a significant so far is a lot of people who were sort of you know maybe we'd briefed a staff member of theirs or maybe they'd never been briefed at all about it <hes> because they just didn't didn't see it as a big part of their basket of issues on on the hill or whatever suddenly those kinds of people are very interested in crypto currency and the the open question is okay now that they're interested. What are they gonNA do yeah and I feel like if I were to write this in a book you you know I think of the year twenty seventeen as the year that crypto I hit the mainstream and a night after that year it was kind of a foregone conclusion within the industry that this would be here to stay in wouldn't go away but then you had this like period of this regulatory uncertainty and sort of holding pattern amongst a lot of players in the industry and so I actually feel like this will be a catalyst to those questions finally being answered and perhaps <hes> the industry feeling more confident and how it can move forward <hes> one of the things that I noticed was that in the hearings it just really struck me how much so many of the lawmakers dislike and distrust facebook so I just wonder do you worry or do you think that that aspect could adversely influence the way lawmakers try to regulate the space overall we do that was coined centers chief concern because we're here to represent the underlying technology? We're not here to support or you know or even specifically criticize any projects that we think is either good or bad and are concerned with facebook is one the sort of reputational risk that it poses. It's Kinda funny for someone who's worked in the BITCOIN space to talk about reputational risk from giant corporation anything that's kind of what's going on but but but more than that reputational risk because 'cause I think there's plenty of and we saw this in the hearing. There were plenty of people in Congress who said I don't trust you right now because of Cambridge analytic or things like that but I think you're part of a wave of technology in the U._S.. That's generally you know created jobs and brought prosperity. They're at so I'm not too concerned about people being down on facebook. I think facebook could very well reform. Its image maybe and define what I'm really concerned about from a cryptocurrency standpoint is the sort of the strategy that we've we've seen unfold from libra. which is this this you know we are just like bitcoin? We are just like any other crypto currency and so the regulations that would apply to us are the same ones that have been sort of worked out within the BITCOIN is cerium space over the last four years. So you see a lot of this <hes> maybe not quite as explicitly as I just said but when when facebook says you know we're GonNa have libra be fully compliant with anti money laundering laws. US <hes> because the on off ramps of the network will be fully K._y._c. and and there'd be a male and things like that that is the standard for sort of how we do A._M.. L. In the bitcoin space we don't need K._Y._C. Information on the blockchain or for a transaction between say to software wallets like a Casa hotel node and my bread wallet on my on My iphone. We don't do K._Y._C.. There we do K._y._c. when you by Bitcoin to basically on the network through coin base or when you sell Bitcoin to get off the network through say I duNno cracking now. Libra is not like bitcoin in the sense that Bitcoin bitcoin has no one in the middle who could be relied upon to do the K._y._c. and so it makes sense that there's no regulation of the transactions in the middle from A._M.. L. Standpoint there's just miners in between and they don't have customer relationships. They're not even like you know. They're not a unified legal entity. They're just people all over the world. Libra has this association in the middle which at the moment you know might be twenty eight companies who've signed letters of intent and they plan to have about one hundred for companies like big corporations like these mastercard when they launch that association is something that you could regulate for anti money laundering purposes and so this claim that you know we'll just do a M._l._k.. I see at the edges is to a certain extent a claim that we're just like bitcoin. You know we have to do it at the edges because there's no one in the middle but that's simply not true. The Way Lieber has been described. There's somebody in the middle somebody really notable a a a big group of big you know legal entities of corporations who are going to keep the blockchain validate transactions decide what the libra software should look like all the things that we do in a decentralized way with bitcoin miners and open source software for development in the BITCOIN space. Yeah I actually noticed this tension in a few different ways where it seems like facebook was trying to say hey this is one thing but then later when answering a different question the way they would answer sure that would contradict with it said earlier and Daniel Popper released a couple tweets pointing this out as well. I don't remember all of them but remember one of them which will actually talk a little bit more about in a second but out or actually I remember the first one it was saying I guess at one point David Marcus said Yeah we won't compete with the dollar. That's not our intention but then you know at different points he was saying well. We plan to be a global currency so in that regard <hes> those are slightly contradictory and then another one was him saying you know we don't intend to be a bank but then also later on admitting that some of the services they planned offering kluber are maybe lending or investing that type of thing which obviously would make them competitive with financial institutions <hes> but one thing that I actually also just wanted to ask you was this point you were making about how it is not like Bitcoin it is permission. She ended centralized so as I was listening to that kind of line of questioning and it kind of was remarkable because I could not help but think oh well face. Libra is what's making some of these lawmakers makers understand the benefits of something like Bitcoin and other decentralized cryptocurrencies kind of interesting to watch in action but then I thought well if if the wind into trends in that direction could we launch something more decentralized which I realized was more just like a just kind of an imaginative thought but you know even even like disregarding all the issues that raises. I was like Whoa just I even on a pure technical level like a lot of these chains that you have high throughput in skill ability are ones that also are more centralized in have few alligators. You know like you couldn't do something like this with the Theorem or and then the fact of the matter is to just the fact that they want it to be backed somehow by some Fiat or other stable currencies like that's basically like tether which has a lot of issues shoe so then I started thinking well frankly. It just feels to me like the way to make this technology. Go mainstream is that we have to start with a centralized version. Would you agree with that. I mean I think the the moment when you you know your your grandmother will be using this thing will be the moment when it is super scalable super easy. The interface doesn't have all this weird crypto jargon inherent in private keys in all all that and and it really is baked into commonsense messaging platforms like like whatsapp or facebook or signal or or whatever but that's a ways away and I don't think you need centralized crypto currencies agencies or digital currencies to ultimately achieve that if you're willing to be centralized then you already have those things they're called Pai POW you know if you're unwilling to be centralized and you want mainstream adoption. You have to build things like the lightning network or plasma on a theory him. You have to think about charting you have to think maybe about crew steak or alternative consensus mechanisms but these are not necessarily things that would end up creating a sort of counterparty or intermediary intermediary risk that you get in a normal centralized payment system so facebook I think with libra recognized that the decentralized stuff was not ready to suddenly be baked into what's APP and and and they're thereby allow you know millions of transactions per day or per hour even per second <hes> and yet they didn't come up with a technological solution that was really capable of maintaining decentralisation centralisation while providing scale ability and you know that's we should forgive them for that because that's really hard but there are some really exciting projects like lightning that are starting to actually achieve those results and still going to be a number of years until 'til your grandma with signal APP can send Bitcoin you know seamlessly and with and without you know delays or counterparty risk or things like that but I think we're getting there and I don't think there's a sort of irreconcilable gullible <hes> contradiction between decentralisation scale ability. It's just harder tech to build and the other thing that you were saying about this hearing finally helping some members of Congress understand. Dan Bitcoin and the decentralized technology. I think you're totally right and you know I was a bit nervous about these hearings because of the potential collateral consequences that distrust of facebook could could give the decentralized centralized space the bitcoin space but these hearings ended up being just like you suggested a huge win for explaining exactly what the benefits of these decentralize technologies are to folks in Congress because it was something that and this was also amazing. I don't know if your listeners follow politics much but these hearings were happening in the backdrop of a really ugly partisan fight that was primarily you know initiated because of trump's tweets about you know <hes> whether certain people in Congress should go back to their home countries which is I'm not even going to wait into any of that. It was all very ugly and also point out from the U._S.. They're all you all citizens yeah so so a mess and ugly and on both sides you know really aggressive partisan rhetoric and yet despite that happening in the background during these hearings about libra and cryptocurrency left there was actually a shocking amount of bipartisan. ISM people who were just fighting about this other thing were both agreeing sometimes for slightly different reasons that a centralized digital currency like Lieber presents some somewhat what alarming risks but decentralized crypto currencies actually present great opportunities to remove those risks so I just wanted to point out a couple examples from the Democrat side you had representative Katie Porter who said food and this is a direct quote a lot of the concerns I have about libra I do not have about crypto currencies and then she went on a a really great line of questioning about Lieber says it's backed by dollars. What is backed mean? Does that mean you still owned the dollars. You gave libra in order to get libra or does that mean that they're just always going to have one that matches your libra. What does that even mean? When it's a basket of dollars in other currencies <hes> versus just a dollar for every lieber token? It was a great line of questioning focused on this reserve function which is something that Bitcoin doesn't have because bitcoin is just a bitcoin. It's just a scarce number of items described by the Bitcoin blockchain and then the demand sense the price and then representative. You've Sean Duffy a Republican said he was a great moment in the House hearing where he held up a twenty dollar bill and he said what's so good about this. Mr Marcus is that no one <hes> chooses who is allowed to use this dollar this twenty dollar bill and who isn't whereas with a libra and he's at this point referencing the power of the Association in the Middle Just like you censor people on facebook whose views as you don't agree with you censor people from using your libra you are judge and you are jury and that's fascinating because that brings up the sort of rule of law issues that come up with the fact that there's this middle man this person that that is always going to be the arbiter of whether someone's allowed to transact or buy something or sell something or donate to a political campaign. It's just too much risk to put in one person's hands and Bitcoin of course doesn't have that because while while miners could one off decide not to put a transaction the block there's enough of them and they compete with each other with enough with enough. <hes> you know vibrancy that you're GONNA get a transaction in the block. Eventually it's going on a happen. None of them have the power to to fully and permanently stop you from transacting the way the Lieber Association as the essential middleman and keeping the blockchain but have that power yeah. We're GONNA continue this line of discussion but I quick word from the sponsors who made this show possible. CRYPTO DOT COM is the place you can buy Crypto at true cost you can buy over forty coins at the lowest possible prices with no fees and no markups at CRYPTO DOT com. We grow your crypto for you too. You can earn up to eight percent per year on B._T._c. e. t. h. x. p. and more when you deposit in any of the one month three month or flexible terms download the CRYPTO DOT COM APP on I O. S. or Android now will the world follow France and advocate banning privacy coins will government-backed stable coins become the new Fiat are distributed and peer to peer exchanges just a flash in the pan. The answer is maybe virtual currencies can flourish and create a new private and more versatile economy but that grand vision can't happen without keeping crypto clean and that requires support of governments and accountability for bad actors privacy enhanced compliance using cryptographic controls has the potential to preserve anonymity without compromising legitimate investigations cypher trace is working on this vision of the future sign up up to stay up to date on the privacy enhanced compliance initiative and receive authoritative Crypto aml reports quarterly W._w._w.. DOT CYPHER TRACE DOT com slash keep crypto clean back to my conversation with Peter Van Valkenburgh of Coin Point Center. Yeah I love what you just said and actually it kind of brings us back to one of the points I made earlier which is actually in a roundabout way. Even though the lawmakers really really distrust facebook in my initial question was Oh could this harm the regulation of industry actually weirdly it might give a boost to the industry in the sense that now the lawmakers <hes> kind of understand the risks of centralization because they clearly see a we wouldn't wouldn't want facebook in charge of I can't remember who it was but there were others were saying like money as a public good. It shouldn't be something died all of these multi-national corporations control so yeah so who actually I think that might have been vic that I am not positive if the public good line exactly came from Kasur Cortez Representative Cortez or representative to lab I was so cost you Alexandra Sanjay Congress yeah and and I I loved her line of questioning too because both representative Acadia Cortez and representative to lab brought up this other big problem of like okay. Hey who chose who's in the Lieber Association and David Marcus came back and said well. It's an open criteria. You just have to meet the criteria of course that then leads you to ask like okay who set the criteria and is it really open. Even at some point somebody else asked could a Chinese state owned company that matches the criteria. You know a billion dollars in assets in ten million dollar entry fee could they draw in there was no clear answer as to whether that was but but this line of questioning like who who is allowed to join the Labour Association and why were the initial twenty eight sort of pick the way they were is really great for explaining Bitcoin as well because you know a lot of people have struggled with proof proof of work as this sort of costly potentially bad for the Environment Weird arbitrary game that people are playing on their computers in order to mind bitcoin. It doesn't immediately strike someone who's not a crypto native as something that sounds good but this is exactly what solves the dilemma of who should play this role in the bitcoin space. We don't WanNa give one corporation the chance to sort of way the dice and choose who's in the Association of People Validating the Ledger. We don't want one corporation to do it. Just merely through Fiat or through right we want there to be a fair and open competition for who gets to do it and so it needs to be some kind of lottery and the only way to to make the lottery tickets expensive so that someone can't just by billions of them and claim to be different people is to have computers do approve of work calculation or maybe do proof of stake. I don't want to suggest that proof of stake is not a potential viable open solution solution to the consensus problem but no matter what we just want a fair game to sort of let people rotate playing this important role and that's an amazing innovation and it's innovation that goes all the way back to two thousand and eight thousand nine with the Toshi White Paper and finally we can go to someone like representative <unk> Cortez and say you totally right. You're totally right that it shouldn't be some sort of you know this person just happened to be rich and powerful and said therefore the ledger will be validated located by these people. That's lousy instead it should just be a fair and transparent and open game that people play and when they play it fairly and honestly they'll get a chance to be part of the network you know based on the rules that were set out in the software so are. Are you trying to set up a meeting with her. We've we've actually I I haven't I haven't been on this meeting but we've been in contact with some of our staff so okay yeah because there were just a lot of a lot of these moments but so so back to libra I wanted to ask because you pointed out that it wasn't a kind of a predictably partisan line of questioning from either side so I just wondered like how do you think that aspect will affect the sorry the AH I can't even speak the ability to go forward you think died you know that will will it like both sides going to end up against it. Or what do you think is GonNa Happen. <hes> so so you know. I honestly hope that there isn't some sort of so obviously everybody knows that our our big issue is we don't want strong overreaction that would make it impossible to to use or or run bitcoin software or something like that and I am not too worried about that now. Although we still have to be vigilant but I also just personally hope that there isn't too strong of a reaction to facebook I'm not rooting for facebook to fail or to be regulated into nonexistence with its sleeper product i. I don't think that's good for competition or for innovation. Either you know there should be multiple approaches to solving things like financial inclusion and you know more private financial transactions. Do I think the leaders Labor project has designed is the best way to achieve those results no but I do think they have a right to build it <hes> as long as they comply with relevant laws and I do think that they're entering the field will just 'cause you know rival projects projects to take the challenge up and be serious about competing and you know depending on which one you believe in whether it's Bitcoin or theory brassiere cash. I think you know this is this is good. This is the right kind of competition that we want. I will say this though about libra chances for success because of the difference in architecture because of the the fact that there is a lieber association that is trusted to validate transactions wins and always is the gatekeeper between one person on the network paying another person and also because they are trusted to keep this reserve fund which in theory will be balanced in order to keep the Lieber units stable against the dollar or other international currencies. They're going to have more regulatory challenges than Bitcoin did and so the two big things to watch out for I think our sanctions law which a few people have talked about but you know if anybody anybody can generate a libra address and that's how it's currently specified in the protocol and some Lieber addresses end up on the S._D._N.. List which is a list kept by OPEC the part of the Treasury that enforces sanctions law that says you can't pay someone in Iran you can't pay someone in North Korea and some of those Lieber addresses end up on that sanctions list the association is going to have to comply with Oh fach and you might say okay well that sounds fine. They'll just comply with OPEC but it's going to be this sort of endless. Whack a mole where more people generate more addresses that are going to end up on the sanctions list and the associations just going to have this massive duty to obey okay. Oh fach that I think ultimately will make the network and they're they're functioning a their ability to create the functionality of the network extremely hard to maintain now you know maybe they'll find a way to to figure that one out but the the fact that there's always the central arbiter of transactions means that that central arbiters going to have to comply with a mountain of sanctions law issues and a mountain of A._M.. L. Issues and not just U._S.. Based ones like what if a a European member of the Association says we're not a U._S.. Company were not subject to U._S.. Sanctions and they put a transaction in the ledger but then a U._S.. Company says wait a minute. We can't be in an association with a member who violates sanctions. We can't do that and this. This is not just a hypothetical because right now. Europe is finding ways to go around American sanctions against Iran because they disagree with our foreign policy so it's not an academic discussion at all. It's I think foundationally difficult and then real quick winning is the other thing the other thing on securities law which I think is may be just as difficult is and we we saw a lot of the panelists <hes> Gary Gansler Former C. T. C. Chairman and Mel Tim Mirrors <hes> both say. Look to me. This looks like a an e._t._f.. In exchange traded fund if it is basically a token e._T._f.. Or a token is money market fund because they have this reserve and because they actively manage edge the reserve and decide what should go in the reserve in what should not go in the reserve then there's this question all right the investment tokens that that the Labor Association members get those are definitely securities and facebook's been transparent about that because they pay interest from all the money in the reserve but what about the Lieber token itself. Is that really just currency or is it a claim on the principle rather than the interest in the reserve and if it's a claim on the principle of a fund. It's probably a security under U._S.. Law and if it's a security under U._S. law the libra currency itself it can only trade on national securities exchanges it can't trade on coin base and there's all kinds of regulatory compliance appliance. <hes> you know issues that would suddenly emerge for any American citizen using libra because it would be the same as an American citizen transacting with stocks and bonds unlike an American citizen transacting with just you know a twenty dollar note so so that could be very very difficult to comply with and could also be potentially deadly to the project so I'm not too worried about you know sweeping overreach from Congress creating difficulties ABC's although it certainly could still happen but I am worried just about basic compliance with existing law because I think they've got a really hard road ahead of him. Yeah something that I was thinking about sort of reference this earlier is that facebook as you mentioned the kind of want it want to have it both ways. They WANNA seem like bitcoin but frankly they have to go the regulatory records regulatory compliant route rights and in a way that's probably also why they chose the types of members that they did for the association but then weirdly I actually feel like and this is probably far fetched by just kind of continuing down the trend. I mentioned an earlier where it seems like a lot of the lawmakers were kind of understanding the benefits of decentralisation. I just wonder if the complications of trying to make only something <hes> Make Lieber compliant can't with existing regulation. We'll sort of point out the the burden I guess that a lot of companies face in this industry and if that maybe could also help spur more friendly regulations which a lot of industry has been agitating for. What do you think that's likely at all? I think it's possible. I just think that I I don't. I don't know if you're going to get that much sympathy. Though because there's there's not much different here from a policy standpoint than what you have with a typical fully centralized regulated entity like pay pal or a bank or something like that the the differences. You've got this quasi decentralisation. You know it's a hundred members of an association instead of just us. No I mean I regulations truly decentralized cryptocurrencies. Do you know what I'm saying. Oh with they're good. I mean I think the regulations for truly decentralize crypto currencies are actually quite good right now. Okay okay. I mean stuff that you mentioned earlier about. Oh Fac I was going to point out that that already does apply to the BITCOIN blockchain. There are two to address says I believe that have already been absolutely so yeah yeah yeah but but the fundamental difference here is you can be a minor on the Bitcoin blockchain and you're one of worst case scenario. You're one of maybe <hes> you know ten or fifteen powerful minors in the world who sort of take turns keeping the blockchain and in a better case scenario with things like better hash and a few other innovations that could do central as mining better your maybe one of forty or fifty or a hundred parties is that are doing this and so if you're based in the U._S.. You comply with sanctions law. That's just what you do you look and see if there's bitcoin addresses on the Oh fact list and then you just don't validate transactions to those those addresses but if you're not based in the U._S.. You don't comply sanctions law so you don't have that problem where there's this international association that has to comply with the laws of every jurisdiction minors just comply with the laws of the jurisdiction that they find themselves in and the same same is true of anti money laundering law where we can do anti money laundering law at the edges of the network because there's no single party in the center that could always do it for everybody on the network and that's currently the Policy Lsu Fincen and treasury and you know Secretary Mnuchin gave a speech about that Gwen end cryptocurrencies in advance of the hearings as well because as he said this has been a crazy week and what secretary Mnuchin said was look. We've got this under control role. We've done two big things we issued new guidance in two thousand nineteen and by the way that's guidance that says that you know software developers are not regulated for anti money laundering purposes even multi sick providers with a minority number of keys or not regulated regulated custodial exchanges are regulated the edges of the network and the other thing he said that we did is export U._S.. Roles to the fat F. which will export them internationally because the fat of his the international body that tells other countries how to do their A._M.. L. So we've actually ended up in this great place from an am l.. Standpoint for bitcoin where we know who's regulated the custodial exchanges wallet providers and no one else on the network is with libra. You know you could argue well. It should be just the same. It's just the custodial <hes> exchanges wallet providers like Culebra the holy on facebook subsidiary but it's hard to argue that when there's also this Lieber Association right in the middle the network with a perfect vantage point to do all the A._M.. L. For the entire network and when it's made up of legal you know corporations and other you know regulated entities who could very easily be relied upon by people in government to stop stop illicit flows of funds and things like that whereas you know minors all over the world. It's just not as feasible to actually put that kind of compliance burden on all them because most of them aren't even U._S.. Based companies they might even just be individuals. One other thing that I wanted to ask was do you think that kind of seeing this threat from libra that that could spur the U._S. government to more quickly act on a central bank digital currency the big problem with Central Bank digital currencies. He's from especially from the U._S.. Standpoint I'll I'll just give a really quick thesis. This is not my area of expertise but this is a pretty strongly held belief of of my own is that they're just not ever going to be viable anytime soon because if a central bank issues you know dollars directly into American wallets digital wallets Americans would have no reason to keep their money in banks <hes> because why would you take the risk of keeping your money in the bank when you can have direct to central bank money in your pocket and so you would be massively disruptive to the banking sector if the Central Bank issued a digital currency because it would basically obviate the need for bank deposits and lending and it would completely change monetary policy in the U._S.. Because suddenly you know we we used to use interest rates for lending to try and control the monetary supply and now the Fed can still do that sort of but way better for them to just create or destroy units and give them directly to American citizens in a digital wallet or maybe even directly delete them from the wallets of American citizens in the sort of negative interest rate type scheme. This is all Saifi and the Fed is a member Association of Banks. They're not going to put themselves out of business. Yeah whenever I want to ask about this is also kind of an unlikely scenario I wanted to talk about what about it was that draft bill to prevent tech companies creating cryptocurrencies. How likely is that to go anywhere so it's hard to really develop a sort of like odds or percentage of success likelihood it because things are very chaotic right now and things are very uncertain both from partisanship standpoint which would generally make you think that nothing's going to pass unless it's totally bipartisan but as I was just saying there's a surprising amount <unk> bipartisanship around people being wary of facebook and wary of launching a crypto currency? I think the collateral consequences of the keep big tech out of Finance Act that maxine waters presented might be severe enough that it ends up being something that you know cooler heads. Maybe even maxine waters herself. <hes> decide you know needs to be moderated a bit because because basically that that law says you can't even run a money services business so products like Google Wallet or Apple Pay would have to be shut down so that that seems a little extreme although I I don't know you know and and you know let me just give my disclaimer again. This is not coin centers issue area because we don't represent any of big tech. We don't WanNa represent any big tech. We WanNA represent open source protocols for crypto currency but the one thing I will say about that proposal not that I advocate eight for it at all because I I again. I think everybody should be allowed to compete in this space and I I don't think we need laws to protect coin from DIG Corporation competition because I don't think they can actually compete on the margins where we're succeeding <hes> but at the very least that that law wouldn't hurt bitcoin wouldn't make a hostile regulatory environment for Bitcoin Er- theorem <hes> not that it's necessarily good for innovation or anything else but at least it's a calibrated response not a response what's that we were originally afraid of. which was something like all crypto currencies are banned or something like that right all right so I guess just the last question before we sign off? I just was curious so you did mention. I you felt that the way lieber is constructed. It is kind of like an e._T._f.. And in the <hes> hearings David Marcus Marcus seemed to not to really know who the regulator or regulators should be for libra so which government agencies do you think should regulate libra. It's really not for me to say I think it's it's already clear and David Marcus and you know and other people from facebook have said we know we're going to be regulated elated by Fincen for anti money laundering and that makes sense and then they're in negotiations with the G. Seven <hes> and with their potential you know Swiss regulators because they're incorporating in Geneva which would be thin ma <hes> about how we do investor protection in the space I could see the Swiss regulators and Finn Mud doing a good job making sure they keep the reserve fund solvent and and they don't accidentally become like a fractional reserve or a you know a a Ponzi scheme of some sort I could see the Swiss regulators being graded that <hes> I believe David Marcus when he says you know we're not trying to avoid regulation gained by going to Switzerland we think the Swiss are actually good regulators and they're just very well known for being you know a country with an international focus because it's this little country in the middle of the E._U.. In the middle of the world and so many nonprofits have their base of operations the W._T._o.. A._T. L. and such so I could see that happening and I think that would be fine <hes> but that said the existing securities laws in the U._S.. Say That if you're dealing with American retail investors and the thing you're selling seeing them as a security which as as had earlier might be true of libra if if basically what the association is doing is running a token is e._t._f.. Then they're not going to have a choice. They're going to have to comply with U._S.. Securities Law which means the S._e._C. is their regulator investment protection unless there's some sort of amendment to the securities laws that changes that obligation for the S._E._C. to regulate which you know maybe maybe they should advocate for or maybe they can even and make the argument that yeah. It's a lot like an e._T._f.. Bought because users don't expect prophets and David Marcus did say this in the hearings because they don't expect profits from something that is meant to be stable. It shouldn't be regulated security. It should be regulated as like a negotiable instruments or payment instrument which is what they were arguing. I just think it's it's difficult. It's a hard argument to make so I wouldn't <hes> you know I personally wouldn't want to be in their shoes trying to make that argument yeah. We'll we'll see how this plays out. I have a feeling that no matter what it's going to continue to be incredibly fascinating so thanks so much for coming on unconfirmed. Thanks so much good talking with you as always thanks for joining us today to learn more about the topics discussed be sure to check out the links and the show notes of your podcast player if you enjoyed the show be sure to share the episode on facebook too early. Din Unconfirmed is produced by me Lorsch in with help from fact of according Anthony.

libra. facebook Lieber David Marcus Marcus Lieber Association Congress Fiat Libra B. representative Fed Bitcoin Peter Peter Van Valkenburgh Dan Bitcoin House
The Notorious McG: Conor McGregor Inside and Outside Ultimate Fighting

Ariel Helwani's MMA Show

23:47 min | 1 year ago

The Notorious McG: Conor McGregor Inside and Outside Ultimate Fighting

"Hates area WHO WANNA various Hawaii's Eh may show let me tell you about my good friends over at ESPN daily. has you know each and every morning you can wake up to the best story you will hear are all day courtesy of Espn daily twenty minutes. A day. Five days a week were you can get an inside look at the most interesting stories at ESPN as told by the top reporters and insiders on the planet the Breaking News of Sports Center with the deep dive storytelling of thirty for thirty. Today's episode is one. I thought our listeners would especially enjoy joy. Please listen and subscribe to Espn daily wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Even better than who I was. You know everyone says we missed the old contra the two thousand sixteen contract but feel better than that now amateur. I've experienced everything in this business. That was notorious enemy fighter conor McGregor doing his best to convince us. All that will see a return to form in this Saturday's as UFC main event against Donald cerrone but with three years of controversy troubling behavior even criminal allegations McGregor's battles in the octagon overshadowed by the battles outside of it. It's Friday January seventeenth. I'm Dominic Foxworth I still today. This is ESPN daily presented by indeed the New Year new budgets. Every small business has unique needs when you partner with the Dell Small Business Technology advisor you get real time tailored advice he'll even give you a free audit on your servers and storage devices to develop a custom solution to help improve improve your company's productivity plus right now upgrade to windows ten and get up to forty five percent off select business computers with Intel core processors to speak with Adele adviser call eight seven seven by Dell. That's eight seven. Seven by Dell conor McGregor is backed like got no are we excited about that we trepidation. It's it's like what's what's the failing that he's coming back to the octagon. I think that we're a little all things. Kevin Van Valkenburgh is a senior writer for. ESPN corner is is the biggest draw in the fight game I think that the interest in this fight proves that but how you feel about him is dependent on how how much you care about his behavior outside the ring which has ranged from mischievous too serious to potentially criminal. And there's a lot of of questions I think morally about this fight and just how much connor is doing it simply to kind of change the narrative surrounding him so in the lead up to this big invite you made a trip to Dublin Ireland connors hometown. Or are you trying to find out. I think we wanted to understand. is where is connor now in his life and in his career and not only like where he was what was going on with these allegations that published against him but how people felt about him. Connor was such a conic figure in Ireland during his rise that we couldn't help but wonder like. Is that still true. What kind of neighborhood did he grow up in? How's his family? We're from his always been sort of a mixture of some dispute. He's from the suburb of Crumlin. which probably thirty forty years ago was a pretty rough part of Dublin was certainly an area where crime in an organized crime were rampant? And now if you ask people about Crumlin the view it more as a hipster kind of up and coming place. Connor certainly was someone who was around part of the criminal element of Crumlin but I think his portray it As this war zone which he has sometimes done is as a way to kind of elevate. His own credibility would be inaccurate but he was a working class Schuyler he was on government aid right up until his first big break and fighting correct connor took an apprenticeship to be a plumber and he hated needed it and he told his father. It's either fighting or nothing. And so he was earning essentially like from government assistance. One hundred eight euros a week until he won his first year. Oh see fight which paid him sixty thousand euros and that was kind of his big break. That eve is like all right. I finally don't have to be on government assistance anymore. I'm actually going to do this for real. Like a lot of fighters connor was motivated by what he perceived as his poverty. Now are there a lot poorer people in the Dublin Dublin area than Connor. Yes certainly grow up as like poor as Mike Tyson. Like no way but I mean he's still became like a folk hero to the Irish people. Can you kind of explain how are in that status. Boxing is a really important part of Irish culture. They really hang on the Olympic results. It's like every four years as as if they're Olympic fighters and this is both men and women don't do well. They're crushed even more so than soccer and so conor came up a little bit through that tradition. As it was part of the Kremlin boxing club and he was an average boxer. He wasn't particularly. I would say skilled but as has fighting became more popular in Ireland in in Great Britain and in Europe Connor was more drawn to that and there really wasn't a way to make make a living as a mixed martial arts fighter in Ireland before Connor. He made it possible like this dream was was real. He echoed working working class and that made a lot of people really proud. That meets a lot of Irish people feel like this is our Avatar for the new century. New Era of Ireland but on you said humble in in Conor McGregor in the same sentence. Yeah it's it's hard to believe now but in the beginning connor was seen as kind of funny but more humble figure we talked to oh cyrus redder a UN McKenna. Who met him at a McDonald's rates after he won his first big fight and didn't even have a car back then he had sort of job into there and he was super funny and polite and friendly and you know he's confident in his skills as a fighter but wasn't this kind of outward outlandish? Should Steve Austin type character and what happened as things went on is that Connor learned the best way for him to move up within the OC and and make a lot of money was blend the lines between what was kind of a wwe style character. And I'd like to take this chance to apologize. Is You buddy. When did the kind of hyping persona start got to show itself so back in the early part of Connor's career? He kind of started understand that the best way for him to promote himself was Denali social media but to kind kind of get some of his early fans to sort of help him out into sort of encourage them to to talk up. Talk him up. And you have SI president Dana White went to to Dublin in two thousand and thirteen to basically get an award from Trinity College for something some people in UFC they invited connor out to dinner. And we're like bladder note. This guy can fight but if he can fight it all he is going to be an absolute superstar because he has charisma out the eyeballs. I can't and so we really really kind of through his personality that he managed to get various kind of bigger and bigger boats until he. He talked his way right. Up onto getting a title fight was been the high point of his career. In the octagon when Conor McGregor fought Jose Aldo. I think there was still a lot of doubts just about whether this guy was more mouth or more more skills and Jose those legendary figure within fighting and we came from this gracie tradition in Brazil. And everyone thought like okay. This guy is just a lethal fighter. He is going to be able to just absolutely shut. This clown up and when they faced off there was a huge amount of hype as a huge amount of paper. View buys drugs to the southbound Torius lacks the champion Joe and they walked towards another. They had all this animosity. All this trash talk leading up to fight and Connor Cottam with a nasty hook thirteen seconds into the fight and Aldo Aldo. Dropped to the canvas and it was just like Oh my gosh this guy talk the talk and walk the walk and news undisputed featherweight featherweight champion. The world McGregor again during the high times as he won around the world what was Kinda McGregor's relationship shit with his homeland. Irish people by nature. And they'll tell you this so whether you believe it or not but that they're sort of humble there about family there. They were sort of told to be reserved served stuff. Connor was not that connor especially as he Scott. More famous was someone who was very much about. I'm the king in a lot of people felt like maybe we should celebrate our successes. Maybe we should be more proud of who we are in. Maybe Connor is the kind of Avatar of that he he can. Kinda represent are so things started to change. Though when Connor started seeking a fight with the boxer floyd mayweather so he steps outside of of his own sport and he opens up a whole door of controversy with the story behind this fight before they entered the ring. One thing about the you can say about connors whether you kind of by into whether it's one of the great fighters of all time. He is certainly one of the greatest people at promoting fights and with that came. I think some really complicated morality connor. I understood that some of the appeal of like rocky versus creed was that it was a black ivers as a white guy why and connor knew that he wasn't deep down in the same boxing. Classes Floyd Mayweather and Floyd Mayweather also knew that so connor. Her started to sort of really lean hard into this character and so in the promotion of this fight conor used I think a lot of pretty ugly language language that for the first time people were like like I know this is all like part of the game but this is kind of making me pretty uncomfortable. Boy Boy does he suggested that a lot of the media thinks I have a problem with black black people from the penny down. Now you can see this having played out in the Irish media. There's a lot of people said this has gotten to be too ugly to ignore conor. McGregor doesn't get a pass on his racism simply because he's an incredible athlete because he's a great fighter because he's making a lot of money. I think what's a lot of people felt what was that. Connor began to kind of lose him. In this character. You can only play a character for so long before that becomes who you really are. So Oh I guess in the lead up to that. Fight recognizing like fighting's history with using race to sell the fight was their constituency. Okay that was on connor side. I think that one thing that's interesting and complicated about connor is that he's always sort of represented a sort of clash of cultures. There's there is a little bit of of nationalism involved in the sort of appeal of fighting like whether it was may were fight whether it was Habib fight like people you saw connor as like this sort of representative of white identity and of the West and then he lost the fight. The watts he did lead the fight mayweather. I think most people would tell you that one of lead me with his great skills sort of been selling fights breath and I think you can look at it from the specter of a well. It went almost ten rounds like it was in the tenth round that that Floyd scored a Tko the McGregor again. I would say he did not embarrass themselves. But I would almost bet you that most boxing afficionados does would tell you that fight could have over in three minutes and people would have been livid and felt like they got totally ripped off so what floyd was willing to do is just kinda intellect congregated in the little punches here and there and and basically pull off an incredible heights. I mean people are willing to pay it. We're the suckers in the whole thing right. Not Not Floyd and Garner coming up with all the controversy surrounding Conor McGregor how you have see responding at espn daily covering the greatest sports stories in history. Three we know what makes the Dream Team. And when you're hiring for your business you need the recruits. That will become champions. That's why you need indeed for your business indeed will help help you find the best playmakers for your business with tools like online skills tests that help candidates show. They're the perfect tire for you. Post your next job at indeed dot com slash rush. ESPN daily and try skills tests for free that's indeed dot com slash. ESPN daily terms conditions and exclusions apply Kevin. The racist comments are one thing but he also had a a series of criminal allegations he did. And that's where I think things started to get even uglier as it no longer. Was this character something that connor just said but it was sort of playing itself out in things that he was doing in the build up to the fight with could be Moraga made off Not only was connor. Serve using really kind of you know awful illusions about Muslims about You know cubs manager. He kept referring to him as a terrorist. He came to the Barclays Center in the lead up to one of the US's and picked up a A Dolly the kind of thing that used to say would move a refrigerator on wheels and he threw it through the window of the bus. Where Bieb Bob and his teammates were which caused a couple of fighters to have to pull out of that? You have see because there were injured by the class and Dana White at the time said the most disgusting thing that has ever happened in the history of the company but you could see some ways weighs like the FCC policy because they would later use those same images to promote the fight when it was time for Connor in face one another the contract. He had an incident in his home country to right he did so. If you ask most people in Ireland Orlands what was it. That really began to change their opinion about connor. Would they would tell you. Is that when there was footage that came out. TMZ acquired it of of him punching an older man in a pub in Crumlin this video surfacing Thursday showing the UFC star cold-cocking Amanda Bar in Dublin. Ireland April six. Let's take a look. Connor was came into the pub and with handing out glasses of his personal brand of whiskey and the guy didn't want to drink it and he'd turned down Connor couple couple times and said no. I don't WanNA drink this whiskey and connor turned in just cracked him right in the face. That really made a lot of people would be like. This guy is a jerk. This guy is really as scummy. And we're not gonNA support him anymore. The New York Times reported on some even more heinous allegations. There was clear if you were in Ireland. That conor McGregor was being investigated for something because they papers kept alluding to the Irish superstar are being investigated for sexual assault at at the but the liable laws in Ireland are much different than they are in the US you cannot name accused or the accuser until until there is a conviction not even just a charge and so there was always rumors that this was connor. Who is the person being investigated by the police? But the Times got four sources to confirm independently that was connor who was in being investigated for sexual assault and six months. After that day confirmed that he was another sexual assault was he was being investigated for. So it's really presenting. I think a lot of darker allusions to Connors Return. Where does this leave him in his reputation at home? I think a lot of people really look at him more as a curiosity as a bit of a freak show they they feel like he is returning to the ring to change the narrative surrounding him. I would say ninety nine percent of the people that we talked to said. Connor is awful whole. He doesn't represent us. He's an embarrassment. We went there not expecting that. We've meant they're expecting people to sort of still be in his corner so if he's going to win those people back back. It's GonNa be a longer road. I think then he thinks I have to admit when I was reading your article I enjoyed when you stumbled upon amateur rapper. Our Economy Gregor district. I mean that's sometimes the magic of reporting right is you go into a barbershop and you just start asking people about Gregor and the one guy is like Oh by the way Conor McGregor distract that. I'd love to play for you. Let me send it to you on WHATSAPP McGregor who takes with the arrogance of money of a Wall Street banker regarding that pinstripe suit. WHO GETS USED TO BE CUE which only disputes theological flavor quicker than the juicy fruit? I thought that was a good window into to this. Isn't just like educated upper-class professionals who are looking down on Connor McGregor and saying like Oh this is awful. This is like they're scraping together money for the pay per views. They're they're following the game. They're just see him as kind of a joke. And I I think conor would deny that conor would tell you that doesn't exist but I'll tell you it absolutely does in light of all this the racist remarks criminal allegations how has the UFC in its president. Dana White handled the controversy and allegations around McGregor. I think the truth is is that conor makes the UFC a ton of money. Connor is a money printing machine and and until he's no longer viable as a fighter. They're going to continue to use him in A. We asked Dana and the interview. You know how can you promote to fight with these allegations. Hangover said and Dina's response was he hasn't been charged with anything. Connor made a lot of bad decisions over the last year's unbelievable amount about decisions. and Are you gonNA stop a guy for making a living when he hasn't been charged so terms of the morality argument. The has always kind of taken a back seat to to to how much money this person can make us and everything points to connor eventually having a rematch with Habib maybe even by the end of the year and there would be a huge huge amount of money that everyone could make from that and so that's ultimately the the God that everyone is GonNa serve until it becomes untenable. Let's talk about where things stand now. Look at this fight. I was throwing on Saturday. Do from Greg Image. Well think it'd just be this first step on the redemption tour he. He talked a lot in our interview with Ariel Awani about how. Oh in such a horrendous camp in the training to face Habib that he was drinking all the time it wasn't training very hard almost who too intense in two series and they're not working hard enough outside. You know what I mean. You've got to be focused outside because then the next day rolls around you're focused when you left then it's time to back. You're not a shop. You're not especially not as eager to be there. It wasn't where he was at the mentally he just couldn't focus even though it was really the biggest fight of his life in part because he'd made so much money and it didn't really matter it was kind of more about bride than it was about status and he couldn't someone that end what he said in build up to this fight is he's got that hunger again he's willing to really sell out for fighting. I'm listening to myself and I followed my my internal instruction and it's just giving me more passionate more focus more driving. I'm doing what I feel I need to do. It's a fields glue now that he's been humbled a little bit that he realizes that people have begun to sort of be turned off by the character of gone umbrella. He's trying to get back to what he was as a fighter and I think we'll see that that power still the question I would ask as discounters still have that speed because a combination the nation of the two was really lethal in the ring. And I don't know as you get started to get older. You might still have the strength but whether you can still combined it with the speed is tale as old as As Laugh Alex the best case scenario is that connor will sort of return to that person that he was who is very skilled very dedicated fighter. What I think would be more interesting in some ways as if he did lose this? Fight where we'RE GONNA go. I imagine he would still try to fight again but who would be interested in have lost to you kind of someone who is completely over the hill as a fighter and no one would really care about some of his antics so the character that is connor. McGregor would kind of be debt. What happens if he wants to fight? What's next there'll be at least probably one more fight after this? If he does is when the fight who that would be with. I think he'll have to kind of auto with various people in C. N.. Everyone knows that he's focused on the the rematch with could be Lebed. Who was really the best fighter in the world? He's he's this unmovable Russian force who is just not only strong but it completely completely emotionless in this kind of Drago type way and he handled connor so easily in the first fight that I think that if there was a rematch connor would enter as a huge underdog but that would just play more into this narrative that connor wants says that he has to kind of prove himself and if he does win then all of a sudden he's the king of the world again I appreciate it. Thanks for taking time with Buddy and that's our story for today I'm Dominic Foxworth this has been. ESPN daily meaner will be back on Monday

connor conor McGregor Connor McGregor connors Espn Ireland UFC Connor Cottam Times Dublin Dana White floyd mayweather Habib Crumlin boxing Dominic Foxworth Kevin Van Valkenburgh Dell Donald cerrone
NLU Podcast, Episode 209: Kevin Van Valkenburg on Tiger Woods and the 2019 Masters

No Laying Up

59:39 min | 2 years ago

NLU Podcast, Episode 209: Kevin Van Valkenburg on Tiger Woods and the 2019 Masters

"Peter right club today. That's better than most. About in better than most. No. Expecting thing. Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to the noling podcast. We got the cleanup hitter here. I wanted to say heavy hitter. But I I didn't want to be didn't want to Gary Player to get all upset about that kind of take or anything, but Kevin Vulcan bird from ESPN neck of hitters. Here. He comes. Oh my God. That's Kevin van Valkenburgh music. Okay. So we did a recap on Sunday afternoon after Tiger Woods won the masters, which what's still doesn't right to say. But it just I I don't think we could do it Justice in the moment. There's ever a instance in Gulf that called for a follow up podcast try to bring this to terms. It was this one and the only guy can think for the job. Kevin welcome to the show. Boom. Thank you Damon. Yeah. I'm still a little bit shocked myself. Did that really have is funny? I was thinking about all the times I've been on this podcast and tiger didn't win a major and we spent half the time talking about tiger. And now it's about. Like this. There's there's no one could be like a God. Because you guys just moved pass tiger, please. Well, if not only that all of those times that we talked about him are now validated in that we were talking about it holding out. This hope this crazy hope that even looking back at it. I think was dumb to hold out the hope for even after winning like it was the hope that this would happen. And it did. And I took the entire day off Monday yesterday. Didn't look at anything other than trying to figure out why apple podcast feet isn't working to that. For anybody. That's dealing with that. But I couldn't get away from it. It was just like that was peaked. It's all downhill from here. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's in some ways, it's like bigger than words. Remember Rick Reilly talking about when Jack Nicklaus won the master's, eighty six that all the all. The writers afterwards were in the in the old Augusta pressroom and one of the guys was. Sitting there like mumbling himself. Like, it's it's too big. I don't know what to do. I don't know. Do it's too big. And I I'm sure like have if I had been there would have sort of had similar thoughts of like, how do you even begin to like put it all into context? It's just the words are never gonna like really match. What you saw with your own eyes and stuff. So I. I happy to admit that I was one of the doubters one of the people who the haters losers of theirs. And I think it's funny like people, you know, the the old freezing cold takes south has one of my tweets back in where I was like man like this is over and saw these people like come at me, you know, yesterday a few times what's up. No, you loser. And like, yeah. Okay. Like, I'm having to admit that I was done. And you know, what if tiger pinned one of those things on his fridge and like stay at eighty six and they said he was done then I'll take some that credit to. Been a part of the motivation. Like, I think for one second that I didn't enjoy the hell out of that yesterday that even though like that I was more interested in being right than I was in seeing tire win again. Like kind of just do a take that I struggle on that one because I think like, I agree. I didn't think I think this would happen. I don't think I ever said he's done. I don't want anyone to go back and listen to all the podcast because there's probably a chance where I'd written him off at some point. But I least I don't know. I I did not think this was possible and the people that called him done. I see where you were you had enough evidence there to really think that and the one thing I kept coming back to whenever Phil was asked about it. And it's beyond a token throughout all of this. You have to give check Nickless credit. He was like I still think he can win. I still think you can win. So they can get my record. And we kinda laughed at it. Like Tigers on the operating table. Like for the second time in six months. Like, Joe still think you could be Jack. Well, it turns out. Yeah. You can because I think what really scared people away scared me away. The most was not even the injuries. It was Phoenix. It was the chipping. And it was like, okay. All this. Crazy, embarrassing stuff. That's happened to you. Now, it is. Now, you suck at golf in front of our eyes. And that was the thing that was like do the magic is gone. The game has gone. It is just totally washed over him. It turns out that was still more injury related than we even realized at the time. I mean, I don't know again, I think it was even the made the connection on the podcast about. Out the potential of that the the painkillers that he was on. Or I don't we don't really know what he was on. But how that has to affect your nerves, and you're chipping ability and all these sensitivities that come with the game of golf and now looking back at a man, it's this transformation is not something that we could have predicted in any way. So I don't fault you for calling him done. But I mean, you could not have predicted this no one predicted this even the believer of all believers could have said like, yeah, he's gonna come back and truly win the masters. You know who else thought he was done is tiger thought is done. We said at the champions dinner, right? I'm done with competitive golf. I will say my friend, Michael Rosenberg who read Sports Illustrated. I remember talking to him years ago and saying don't nobody's ever come back and chips. Nobody's ever come back from you know, this kind of search or whatever and Rosenberg was kind of like, yeah. But like nobody ever did what tiger did before. Like, you're putting a weird standard on a guy who already sort of exceeded. Did you know every station nobody ever one, you know, the US open by fifteen strokes. So I'm not really quite ready to say like just because no one's ever had come back from the chips in been great at chipping again that Tigers not gonna do it. And I was thinking about that yesterday. I was like a pretty good point. Like, I got thoughts a little bit there. Well, I it's also the the narrative you tweet something about this too of have having never come from behind win a major in like, they were hammering that home. I was kinda like, you know, what like none of this other stuff has ever really like fused his back together. He was done for all intents purposes like this him being there is more miraculously than him coming from behind win a major. So let's not like try to even try to pretend that these trends matter anymore, nothing matters anymore for him to be in that scenario. And like, I don't know how to revisit the likelihood of that happening yesterday. When I was looking up his stats are like I was looking at data golf, which I like to follow as as a day goes along the chances of somebody winning forget about all the chances of him getting to that scenario he teed off on Sunday with a seventeen percent chance to win and through six holes. It was eleven percent and through ten holes with eight holes to play. It was fourteen percent. And it's like, it's still wasn't likely that. This would happen. And it's still did. Does it feel any different than it did Sunday night after letting it simmer for a couple days? I think so I mean, it just you know, I'm sure like every tiger fan kind of dreamed that this happened. They would happen to the masters. I never thought like I I think we've were sort of in in unison and thinking that he might could win a British. He can win a PG. But that that course, just hasn't suited him for for a long time. Or that would always be somebody there who would shoot like a great round. And it's just it's too easy for someone to do. What can't did in in have put seven birdies together? And all of a sudden looks like they're gonna shoot sixty five and for him to be able to kind of like not only overcome that people in front of him the people in hind him. I just never thought that that was going to happen. And yet here we are like, I I hope that we will be able to keep it in perspective in the sense of like, you know, what always used to bug me at the height of his greatness that like when those was like the king of the world golf coverage. They would every. A year. Like, right. A thing. Like Kentucky win the grand slam this year. And it's like there's a reason that like nobody ever wanted to counter year. And he's the only person who ever did it foreign ro, you know, the the the grand slam Bobby Jones wants complete different kind of thing. But like, I just you know, he's not gonna win all for majors this year. He might contend in hell he could win slow. I'm going to draw the line right there. 'cause I'm ready to predict he's going to win all four majors. Is that being one of the haters in the doubter? Let me stop you right there from falling all over yourself again. Katie. But yeah, it does feel it just feels you know, surreal. It's I'm so glad that it happened at Augusta because of the energy like with his dad, and the beginning has just you know, if he never wins, another major again that moment was was worth all of the the sort of misery and stuff. I think that we went through. I never say that it was went worth what he went through. But like just being someone who appreciated what he did for the game. That moment was enough for me. I don't need to see him break Nick as record to feel like he's the greatest of all time. Like that was enough. He came back from that. I'm good that these as wanted. Now, I'm not I'm not sure if I'm even believe this hyperbole that I'm about to say, but like I just wanna Jim home the point again of how unlikely it was that this happened. I would almost be less surprised if he won the next three majors than I end that he won this one. Like, it just didn't seem like it was to fairy tale. Like, oh, yeah. The masters is the one he's gonna come back and win fourteen years later. I mean, I was nineteen years old when this eighteen years old when this happened the first time like the for the last time, I don't know it, and you wrote some by this, and I'm gonna kinda get in some of these details you had some stuff on Twitter. Actually, let's back up. First thing you you are not at the masters this year when you talked about what you were going to write in struggling to figure that out. What do you think you would have written? If you if you had to on Sunday night. Gosh, I think I would have just tried to write some kind of scene. I think I could they go at a written like just eight hundred words about fathers, sons and daughters and that moment behind eighteen green. And that's what I ended up writing just a little bit on Twitter about that the cyclical nature of that in how it made me feel. I think was was a really channeling how a lot of people felt like you don't have to be someone who loves tiger to have been moved. By that moment. You don't have to you can be annoyed with some of his personal foibles in steel feel something because as I sort of said a little bit like Tigers always kind of been a vessel for a lot of our feelings like the it's he says his life, and I think sometimes this has been too big for him to handle, but his life says a lot about race relations in ambition and talent and the monster fame and. You know, how we kind of like to see people fall when they're at their heights. And then we like to see them redeemed or or rebuilt, and I always just think like great stuff from majors is just it's something you use zero win with the microscope. You give something really small everyone just saw tiger. When the masters, I don't need detail recounting like about injury, whatever I just want to read, you know, some moment about him and his his family right there. Because what that means in how it made me feel. I I wanna know kind of what as you're watching him come off that green. I guess let me set it up. How kind of I felt and watching the true emotion. I'm talking about the part, bypassing money's in this kids. I still wanna talk more about that. But it was hard for me to watch him walk down that that walkway to fit to fit in the air smiling cheering and hearing, the Rokkas applause and not. Not like marvel at the the irony is not the word, but just the spectacle of like this guy that by most accounts for most of his life. That has not been a good guy. He's not been like a great person to root for and the fact that people are so willing to forgive this myself included to be caught up in this moment to be so happy for him in that moment. I feel like a lot of people that root for tiger are rooting pretty selfishly. They wanted for their own sports watching Vandam again, myself included. But that was maybe the first time I ever watch tiger win and felt like me. And like, I am happy for that. Individual. Did you feel any of the same thing? Absolutely. I mean, I I was very much someone who did not refer him earlier's career. Like, I was more Phil guy. Just you know, I felt like he was just so cold people. And so so hard to kind of wrap my arms around that. I just felt like I was rooting for machine. You know, the what what the? Famous quote about. Will Chamberlain saying nobody, you know, nobody reads for alive, and that's to me what tiger was. But you know, in in a lotta ways we came to sort of be thinking of tiger as like the breath of our whole lives. Like, you were you're nineteen when he won the US Open last one, and I was nineteen when he won the first one. And so like that whole. Period of time exp- like covers a huge part of our lives, like different cities and moved to different people. We fell in love with different part breaks. We had different jobs. We had in tiger was kind of there as a constant through all that. And so in a lot of ways, you're when you're seeing the arc of his life. You can't help but think about the arc of your own life. And so that's where the emotional connection comes. And then on top of that. Like, I do think tiger is a lot more appreciative of the love that he has from people now like in the beginning. It was always I'm doing this for myself. I'm doing this to kick ass and be a destroyer of worlds, but as he sort of came around this time, I really feel like he grew to love the kind of the feelings that people wanted him so badly to come back because of the joy that he had given them. And so to see a person kind of come full circle into appreciate how much people missed him and how much he. He meant to their sports. Watching lives is really neat. Kind of thing before we continue on with KVM. I've got some exciting news from Callaway their chrome soft x triple track golf ball, the Gulf all you see Phil Mickelson playing with you. See those those blue and red lines rolling on the green instantly recognisable they're coming to stores. They're going to be in stores. Starting April nineteenth a the triple track is already on the ER C soft golf ball of your fan of distance golf balls. That's Gulf while you're gonna wanna check out, but Phil plays the chrome soft x with triple track as soon as he saw the triple track. He asked Calloway to put it on the chrome soft people have loved it. So they are now putting this ball available for sale. We just got a bunch of them tried it out. It's really cool. So you probably can't tell from looking at the ball. But if you look straight down on it, it looks as if the lines wrap all the way around it. And it really just feels like a kinda hard described like thick line. That makes me have a little more confidence. Standing over putts. It makes me feel like I don't have as much pressure on myself to hit it truly end over end or hit it straight. So. It's helped by putting its help Neal's. Putting I know he's a fan of this golf ball. So go to Callie golf dot com. Starting this Friday. They are available for purchase. Let's get back to cave. So again on on that note, you talked a bit about how felt as a father to watch him win. I wanted to start with what I felt within walking away in the you know, some of his flaws as a character. I want to do that I in separate out by any account. I've ever heard I would guess that you've ever heard. There has never been a bad word said about tiger's a father, and he raves about his kids. And I've talked to some players like, hey that have played with him. Like, what are you talk about? He's kind of tough to talk to. But once you mentioned his kids, he perks up and talks about his kids, and I've always had that image in my mind. Like, this guy is a flawed guy for all these reasons, but watching him with his kids as always kind of give me a weird about a joy that moment when he comes off the green with that excitement and his son. Comes running under the robes and hugs. And the sun is never seen a win. A major kids of never seen him win a major that moment hit me that was like the moment of the entire week that hit me the most like holy shit. This is an incredible moment the outstretched like the thing. That's hit me. The most is like, I think. So much of his when he his emotions when you see like him making a really, emotional expression. It was always like in excitement of like, I just made this. Great putt. Like, I just did this thing I'm v pumping in you know, it's clear of a combination of excitement and rage. And that emotion as he's coming off the green there that's on his face is just pure excitement. And joy, it's just so I'm so happy that you were here for this. You're the only two people who really matter. You know, salmon in that to me, I just lost it like I was my daughter was sort of sitting on my lap. And she was like dad, why are you crying house like it's just a long? It's a lot for me to contextualize this moment, Molly. Like, it's hard for me to say why? But this is really like, you know, I just you see yourself in his shoes. Like, even though I'm never be anything like Tiger Woods for better or for worse. But in that moment, you can't help. But think about your own sort of Aaron kids in your own joys on your own sort of wish that they would be able to feel proud of you. And celebrate you at your your best moments. And so that's why I think just all around people joke all the time. Ooh. Dad's golf book. The aren't you nerdy dads? Okay. Yup. Guilty. You'll voi- got me there. I'm really, you know, if you're too much of a cynic that you've been asshole about that moment. Like, I I don't have really. Any any business hanging with 'cause that moment just to me was one of the most genuine that I've ever seen in sports period. And that's what I said it at the time, and I was worried about the hyperbole, but didn't really get corrected by a couple of people. Like, that's a cool thing. I've ever seen in sports, man. I mean, that's like the one guy that transcends Gulf into other areas of the game did it and that was the only looking back. It's the only way that could have happened. And I don't know. I don't feel bad saying that that was the coolest thing I've ever seen. We're all kind of hearing kill looking each other. Like is this actually is this real is this actually happening because it it didn't again, it's it's easy to look back at now that it happened. But it, you know, six holes to go. This was far from a lock to happen. I mean. Well, there's a couple of things I wanted to ask about to comment on your Twitter. I was admittedly way behind on Twitter, you referred to Molinari's routine Goosen, and I felt the same way watching him those plots were going in the center of the whole review how surprise hit that ball in the water on twelve just stunned. I just couldn't believe I mean, I I still can't believe that all those guys hit the whole, you know, that that kept. Did it Poulter was the one who sorta started it? I mean. I mean, I just feel like it was I don't know. You know, what exactly snapped in on our his brain at that point. But if you if he hits it over those bunkers like where tired it and just plays totally safe. There's a very real chance that he ruined this whole very tale. Linking he's holding the one-stroke lead of that moment. Like, there's maybe a chance tiger just is not able to catch him any dozen buckle. And they're good thing was sorta reference to like Phil probably should've won the US open at Shinnecock way back when it was there. And because he basically outplayed Goodson who just couldn't hit like a green. And you think he one putted bakery watched it, I think once assoc- one putted like eleven greens or something nuncios open. Like, I you know, the fact that you can that's sometimes out happens. You win a major when you don't when you aren't the kind of guy plays the best on the foul. You just happen to kind of do one thing super well. And that's they're the sort of synergy between or the guest. Miriam is between eighty six and this Jack is that a lot had to really happen for nNcholas to also when that major a lot of guys had to sort of buckle on the moment. Screw up in the in the sense of sevi- had to hit it in the water from the middle of the fairway on on on fifteen and Tom Kite had to hit in the water. Greg Norman had to flare of four higher in like forty yards right of eighteen green. And so you could see all that kind of happening lake. You know, I don't know that like tiger made them do that. But maybe the moment just sort of made them sort of feel like it was too. Big too. Big to handle Molnar was the last guy. I would have thought he'd he biscuit already stood up to tiger. And this kind of moment and still, you know, did it. So I'm sure he'd like to have that one back. I don't know whether it was that shows why that whole is. So devilish rice, oh greats. They've expanded everywhere else on the course got longer. Golden bells stayed on essentially hundred fifty yards for sixty years, and it's still terrifies them because short right is dead in long left is tough. And I still don't know why more guys don't choose long left or like just dumping those back bunkers if you're that nervous. But I guess they just they think like I can make the shot. I can step up and it just short right goes right into the drink. Well, a couple of things on that. I think three of maybe the biggest narratives in Gulf are about how the wind swirls on number twelve on. How the masters doesn't start until the back nine on Sunday. And how much of an effect Tigar has on his playing partners and that all swirled together into one moment. And I was like no way because you just hear this so much like do I really even believe that tiger has an effect on playing partners and this shot is that hard. And we we got burned on that three years ago. Like, I with with speed coming up to twelve I just didn't think that he would hit that water. And little literally while Molinari's ball was airborne. It looks good to me while I was in the air. And I was like got I said out loud. He would there was he was never gonna miss that shot and hits the Bank of goes. No, everyone in the room to start looking at it. I mean, maybe he missed it. Sure. But I want to share a DM I got I won't show the guy's name because usually DM's they prefer not. But somebody that was there. He said deejays on the thirteenth hole, and he is about seven feet from the ropes on thirteen. I guess he had hit it. Right. And he's waiting for can't lay up on the green and a huge gusts came from from thirteen so thirteen T was playing basically down win and huge Gus came as Frankie and tiger are on eleven in Brooks teeing off on twelve and DJ said it out loud loud enough for the gallery to here. He said Jesus I'm glad I'm through twelve. So like at that part of the property or a little further away from those trees and kind of word twelve green sets back. He could. Feel that wind. And I think he kinda wondered like, whoa. I wonder if those guys can feel it from twelve all those really interesting little nugget that because both Molinaro and kept. They both looked pretty mystified in that ball came up into the water. So I think it's a someone sort of tweeting saying please shirt don't wanna hit I on twelve. And I thought oh, yeah. That makes sense because you know, that you have a better understanding the wind. But what's what you realize when you're there is like with hardest part about is the gusts really kinda like it's almost like a canyon down there and even corner and the the trees hide enough of it to where gusts kinda just come ripping around the corner there. And so you just don't really know like there's consistency to them if any PGA tour player can handle like a steady wind that's blowing from one direction. But it's like when you're when you're getting like wins. No wind wind. No wind wind, no wind. That's what's so hard. Because some of their some luck to it. And you know, tiger have. You know, if he had stepped up I hit it had gotten a gust, maybe it blows his ball right towards the pin. Or maybe it wasn't a creek who knows? But that's why like I think we look for like fate in sports sometimes than it's an homeless always bullshit, but sort of fun to think about like in that moment like, you know, what someone is up there thinking like let's throw tiger saving. Let's blow moaners borrow all these balls in the water and see we're going to give it to tiger. But we'll see can bring it home after this moment. That's what I think. We're just living in a simulation. That's what that's what it felt like for that to actually actually come true. I want to share a tweet that you had also written. And then ask a follow up to your tweet said prodigy FINA m- superstar legend it Chris scandal, punching bag cautionary tale charity case relatable, medical miracle. Doubt promise skepticism, stunner joy. Other awesome. That's like that's like the arc right there. But what what were some of your favorite moments from the tiger era from two thousand eight to two thousand nineteen before he won the master's. Oh, man. I mean, I'm partial to the WC L surgery is dog had to have TASR fifteen. I think if you guys haven't done go back and listen to the trap draw episode. No. So this last one, but the trap draw from last August episode seventeen where we just did the story arc of all the things Tigers off the core since two thousand eight and it was it was a blast post is post candle. I think honestly like I don't think he's ever been more mortal as a golfer than that day. He was congressional and our buddy porath was there, and they had him hit three balls on that towards the par-three and he hits three in the water. And the fact that like the the guy the whatever made I forget who it was, you know, some promotional guy is like oh, tiger take what more chance. Roles another ball tomb, and what's not going to do that point. But like now man, I got my back's killing me like I'm not going to then he gets another wedge in the water and just the eerie uncomfortable. Silence of like, oh my God. It's like what happened here to this guy? This guy used to be able to throw darts at things that to me is like such a human boom. I think it no matter how good or how bad you are on a golf course you've stood there over the ball and just been terrified at one point of like, I can't do this like, I don't, you know, and nobody was ever better at wiping those thoughts out than him. And so like just seeing that. Oh god. That was so uncomfortable to think that that guy came back and won the master's blows my mind. It's god. I still can't believe it. I still can't believe it. All right. I got some questions. I Mr. player. Just want to congratulate you on head to get past Jack again on the ceremonial opening teeshot walk us through how special was to be out there that Thursday morning. Some people yesterday was seeing this. I had we had tied the previous year. But we all knew who won this one, Chris if you can't hit it past gave you'll be out selling bean. The never say. What did you think of Patrick relooked a little slim down this year? Did they have to take his coat in again? Did you say anything to the champions dinner? What's I told him take his coat in early and make him wear? It's like he's like is overstuffed balloon, and he'll lose the weights. Shame is a great motivate darker Sola. There's some rumors going around. I don't know if you saw cured copy bond, right? Hit a hook around a tree they're on the back nine one of the days fell over that. He may have injured himself. Do you have any any insight as what may have happened to them? They're DEA God, it was like watching one of those like punching bags like tumbles to the ground just flailing away a fabulous shots. But did God, man. You want to have someone photo shopping. Gary Ryan stayed in that moment. So you could better. Appreciate it. I don't know how to ask Elmo question related questions. I had some Gary Player ones prepared. But. So we got a bunch of Twitter questions. I want to get through Nick Anderson asked a great one. Why does Bubba put a Mark on his yellow Gulf ball? Case happens to you know, hit up on the green. And there's four other guys are just, you know, maybe in bubbas mind, everyone plays the golf ball. He just doesn't. He's never paid any attention anyone else's deal. Just another oddity that that is Bubba guess probably habit. If all weeks having put Markelle there was that brief moment when he eagled fifteen where I was like oh God. This is the worst case scenario. This is it right here. Then he birdied he goes full shorts and birdies every hole coming in. And is a third green jacket. Like, ooh. Well, I warned this on the preview episode said like just be cautious on Sunday of overvaluing. Somebody's position on the leaderboard. If they've gone through fifteen and sixteen because those are the birdie holes, and you can get higher up on the leaderboard and make it look like your title lead. But really tiger hadn't finished thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen yet. And sure enough it happened. I'm like, oh, my oh my God is gonna win them asters. It gives you couldn't actually go. That was the fear having all of a scene that Schwartz thing happened in in eleven that possibility of somebody just running away and hiding in birding could have been kept gut. I mean kept ahead. Good looks on seventeen and eighteen. What did you what did you think of you know, kept pretty tumultuous week leading in from brindell, spewing some hot fire, and we got a question I'm struggling find it right now. But kind of why why do people find it hard? I guess I might have answered right there. But why does this particular listener find it? It's will homes. He said why is it so hard to root for KEPCO when he such an incredible player? You know? I don't know. I mean, I am sort of kind of embraced Brooks. Like, I it's funny in watching with my daughter. She would have a reason she's nine years old. She really likes Brooks us know anything about him. But she just just when she's watching his golf game is like oh Brooks my favorite player like she was way more rooting for him than tiger. And so like if you just look at the Gulf game, if you're nine years old and your ignorant of anything else, like he's awesome. But I do think that a little bit of his cockiness doesn't really have a lot of like humor to go with Phil is cocky, obviously, but he also is willing to kind of poke fun at himself yet in Brooks isn't quite have that thing even DJ kind of cracks jokes about himself a little bit. And so I think maybe books would people would be more willing to open up if he had a little bit more of a sense of humor about himself. But he. Just doesn't I didn't brands take about how he's gonna fall apart thought was silly. And you'll but that's brand had felt like he had backed it up with experience in research in all good. We I think we both agreement we love Brandel. But I don't know. I I was stunned that kept good did not close stronger. Just seeing him hit in the ball in water on twelve to me was was thrilled me that to me was like when sevi- hit in the water on fifteen in eighty six because like sevi- was you know, probably should've won that masters or or certainly Norman. And like it just I never thought Brooks would flinch in that woman because he'd never flinched before when he'd been in that situation. And I don't know like will I once compared kept good to like HOGAN saying like, oh, maybe he's our version of HOGAN like just a sort of a release surly kind of on not really here to be your friend. I'm just here to kick. You're asking guy an answer the more modern version of just pound the shit. Oh, the ball version of that not have a pretty metronome swing. But just a guy just unloads driver. I don't know. Maybe maybe Brooks will be more. You know, when Brooks is going for eight majors or whatever, and he's come back from his own scandal or something down the road that will be canning Brooks than willing to excited about him. Raking news. You heard it here. Every the thing is like almost every player thinking about this. We tend to think of like, you know, career arcs is like a straight line. And it's just not every single player overtime goes through some huge highs and lows some, you know, whether it's, you know, they have something go poorly in their family or their marriage, or, you know, they're they have issues with their kids, or they you know, they blow their fortunes or something. Like, you're talking about, you know, a normal human beings. And we think that just because they're really good at golf. They're not going to be affected me. Dinkins suggestion sorta said the only thing that was going to stop tiger from breaking necklaces record was a bad marriage or injury and Jing's was wrong about a lot of stuff specially tiger. But he was sorta right on those two things as like those two things that we never really could have seen coming were what time derail Tigers career. So very possible that Brooks is has something like that looting. The future is very possible that like worrying speeds are going through their own sort of searching in ways that we never could've anticipated when they were just kicking ass in. That's why you can't you can't predict anything is going to happen in golf. It's someone's always gonna have something on the rise in that's up totally unseen. I think we're netted out on Brooks. I've struggling with FRA comp for him. You know, you mentioned HOGAN there. I I'm not sure if that's it. I think it's it's it's a bad com. No. I know what you mean. I know what you mean there. But it's it's almost like it's almost used Hazen. You know, just in the this big game hunter that has showed up in so many big moments. And I think we I don't know. Well, you touched on there about him winning three majors and thinking we haven't seen him faltered down the stretch. It's like this was way more likely to happen than him winning three straight majors. I mean, it's it's way more likely that guys will have up and downs. Even even if you've already wanted we've seen this a lot with with guys recently speed winning and fifteen we thought he was going to close sixteen. That's what made it so shocking was like, oh, he can't be nervous here. Now. I mean, he's already done this before surely the he'll do it again. But that's just not the way things work out going back to reteach Goosen. He wins it in two thousand one at southern hills and wins at two thousand four Shinnecock, and then was supposed to win at Pinehurst the next year and just fell apart on that Sunday gave to Michael Campbell like in. It doesn't mean that. It's always going to happen that way because it's happened for you in the past and that almost kind of. This one slipping away from Brooks made the first three even more impressive to me. It made him even less fluky is like no this guy's actually stepped up and done at three straight times. And that was put into perspective. How hard is to actually close win these things. So the what we don't realize is like as good as nNcholas was like he finished second twenty times. Kate didn't always win those ones that he was in. And that's why tiger always said I just need to put myself in contention myself chances and these right like eventually like you can't you can't be just absolutely nails every single time out in you're gonna falter gonna have a bad day. We're gonna have a bad swing or bad bounce even end. So, you know, Brooks will probably go back to winning couple majors over the course of his career maybe bunch meal, maybe only few more, but the this. He's going to also be have ones where blows because that's just how golf works. Tiger had ones. Ski let slip away is pretty good closer. Yeah. I mean Tigers only got seven runner ups in majors and four third place finishes to go with fifteen wins and nNcholas had like nineteen runner ups and seventeen third place finishes. I don't know again. I said it's before I don't know what it means. But it's not like he's had a ton of close calls of anything. I think he's tended trended more on the lucky side of these things falling his way than he has really gotten screwed up any of them. But he's also sticking decided like, you know, like if rich beem the whole what I was thinking about the part about never come from behind to win a major. Well, let some of that is because like Michael Campbell happened to sort of like hang in there in Pinehurst when he was chasing like in enrich beam happened to make an incredible frigging. I think eagle at the PJ that when you're at Hazeltine when tiger was birdied like foreign wrote come right out, like the, you know, why Yang stood up to him. When no one would imagine that that dude was ever gonna scrape. Round shot seventy two in most of those times one that on that PJ. And so like he had a few guys who just were able to kind of say like, yeah, you know, what I'm not gonna I'm not going away. Phil did a couple of times with a masters. So, you know. Just no one's gonna be. It isn't like Michael Jordan. I always think that Michael Jordan so much. He he's ruined. Our perspective of like what an alpha should be in sports because he had six shots at finals any one also. But it's not like that in golf like Michael Jordan lost a lot to the pistons in the Celtics and all of US Vice on the way up that's like the equivalent of like a golfer losing finishing fourth or whatever just because Jordan made the final six time. Didn't mean that he was like every time he had a chance to win a major, you know, if he was a golfer. He would wanna right. And that that's separate argument was the defending I've done of LeBron in the past of how many times he's lost in the finals. It was like would you rather have lost in Brown to like is that better like making people? Yeah. That dumb, you know. That's why I was sick. Like, yeah. Close calls in golf means something that doesn't mean you know, it is much as we play so much value in the winter. It is not all about winning events in golf which again makes Tigers record of winning. Them even that much more impressive. So Steve Kline had a crate question. Do we need a discount everyone else's record from twenty fourteen to twenty eighteen while tiger was injured. No, put an astronaut on all ROY majors or two. No. I mean, you you get the majors that you get you know, have the field in front of ya. They're hard to win regardless. And you know, hey, tiger played in that the chambers. Bay major that speak one. I think he played in the masters that your too. Yeah. That's right competed. He was up there around. He was there. He played Shinnecock when Brooks one, and he did actually okay in all the other major. So you know, it's hard to say that. That one shouldn't count either. All this like, oh shouldn't count. That's it's a funny question sort of ask as we know it's like not deep down not serious. But some people who are huge tiger fans. Like think that way like if you didn't be tiger. I remember listening to the years ago way before it worked ESPN like an ESPN radio thing. And there was a debate about when Phil was on the cusp of winning. I can't remember which major was tiger was like way out of it. I think it was. Might have been winged foot. Tiger might have missed the cut that year in looked like Phil was gonna win wing foot. People are saying wealthy wins. This one does it really count. Because tiger was was way back wasn't contention. Like, should it? Really? Yeah. How win the US Open. Tigers doing good go. The current slam and doesn't count everyone's eyes because tire that was that was right after his dad died. He that was the only cut he missed for like in majors for in crazy long period of time because he came in so unprepared. But it did remind me about go tiger always brings in non-gulf people to have golf debates, and it it makes. Terrible arguments since like almost comically bad. Well, you know, you say that, but we got maybe my one of my favorite takes ever, which came from skip Bayless on the FOX the Fox Sports previews couple years ago, which was you know, it was Rickie Fowler tall enough to win. It. Too short to major which was just a talion chef kissing hands right down to that was my favorite. I I used to get really bad when those come in and. Like some people came in this weekend from NFL and whatnot. Like, oh, no one does a better job with golf in CBS. Nick Faldo is with the best analysts in the game. And I was like if I came in at swooped in NFL Sunday the Super Bowl was like off Phil Simms is the best at this. How do you think that would go over? It's funny because meat because I cover football too. So it's like, I get the rare crossovers like my my boy rich Eisen, yes. To refer to. And I was like I wanted to like would be like man, we need to have a tough thing. Valdo is Val those fellow. I mean, the I'm so glad I think we re tweeted west of this tournament. I'm so glad that neither Nance nor Faldo said anything in the two minutes after the last of putt went down in just let the moment sort of speak for it self who knows if if they had some restraint there or if someone is. I want some day running oral history of the CBS producer cut their mikes. Or at least got Faldo's. It was the guy from Forrest Gump at the Vietnam of the Vietnam rallies. Ripping the courts out that will it was perfect. It was perfect. It was like, and that that moment delivered GRA bigger than I could have imagined delivered delivering, and there was a lot of there's a lot of macho men here that made me really really fight against crying. And I would like to report I did not cry. But you being around your daughter's maybe apparently was enough to bring you down. When Sunday when you have children when you know when Charlie woods wins one. And you're sitting there with your kids and he's hugging tire. Then you'll you have ladders on that'll happen pretty easily. Doug Walker had a question if the shot on sixteen had dropped what had been the greatest most famous shot of all time. He said, I was there the ground started to move as it neared the whole from the sound. It was incredible the movie. Yes, I would think so I mean, I saw our buddies Sean Tzakas tooting about how the road thing about how the sixteen pain is bad at how maybe needs to be different place. I totally. I love I love that you hit that slope. It's coming down there. It's got a chance. Like, that's just it builds for drama. I don't care. It's like an easy shot. Like, okay. Make easy shot. Brooks didn't hit it on the right side of the slope in. So maybe it was bad luck or whatever. But that was I thought it was going into John if you thought it was going, but in that moment, I was like oh my God. This is this just happened. Like, this is this is another kind of repeat of the past of like this is like two thousand five in the chip better. Imagine what what would earn of said if that had got it like, I don't think he could have said anything. I don't think he would have heard him. If he was if he said anything, what would I was thinking about this morning? What would take us reaction have been like he's still got to to play. You know, he's got a three-stroke leader, whatever that point like would he have gone bonkers? Would he have been able to sort of restrain himself like Hannah like that? Okay. So big rainy had a thing. Like when the little gimme he had on eighteen he should've scooped it and walk. Away from the game forever. If you to ace that that he definitely should've should've walked off. You should've walked across the water pick the ball up out of the whole thrown it and then retired and just left. I've beat. To that point that shot on sixteen. I don't it's easy. But it's not in that you have to get it in the right spot, and there is kind of a bowl there. But you can get it within the bowl and use the slope of the doesn't always leave. You the easiest putt. If you hit it too long you end up above the whole, and that's kind of what happened to speak in was at sixteen. He had birdied fifteen and if he birdied sixteen against within one of the lead, I think and he's ordering standing right? Yeah. It looked like in the air like he was gonna dumped it, and then it left a really impossible but coming back like a really hard braking left to right. And that kind of where they put that pin is is just in a weird spot. It's hard to use that slope and leave it in a spot where you have a really easy putt. Yeah. When it's two feet. It's pretty easy. But even if it's five feet, it's not like an easy putt. And the guys that miss that bowl. I I love shots that have kind of that dividing line of this isn't that hard to get in this spot. And if you do you're probably going to get rewarded, but if you. Miss this. You are punished severely and having guys having to deal with those nerves and bone set. Something on the podcast last year round. The for a master's preview about how how much filled watched like videos on YouTube of guys in the pressure on Sunday at the master's and watching them go long. And he's just like, man. There's just something in the air on that sixteenth. Honestly, I know sounds crazy. There's a lot of people there. I don't know if there's a lack of oxygen in that little part of the property, but the ball goes further on Sundays. We just have no idea why? And I think it was in two thousand four they had to maybe wasn't YouTube that they're watching this on but had seen highlights whatever two thousand four he says. All right. Let's put it into theory. Let's I this is I might get clubs wrong with the should be a seven iron. We are hitting eight and he hit eight and stuffed it, and it made no sense for it to be an eight iron. But it was and watch Zander. Softly, it was in Shafi went long. He kinda staring down, and he was a younger guy. And he went long on that Sunday. I had. I immediately thought back to that quote. I remember divall hit long in the water on two thousand one always like in that masters where tiger completed slam tired fill in divall. We're all kind of doing at one another and develop leading. I think at that moment. And it looked like is like he was gonna kinda close it. He just basically hit a hard dry. He could not believe it that it went so far that went into the water long not like bounce, right? But like where it goes past the bunker, whatever two things one on the recap episode. I said Zander bogeyed fifteen eighteen to lose the masters by one I was dead wrong on that. Thank you. For those corrected me. I was looking at the round three scorecard for some reason. That's what you get for trying to piece together quickly in four right once he says, please, please. Please talk about the guy who won a million dollars betting on tiger. Do you know much about this story? I saw the headlines and the guy was like twenty five thousand dollars in debt and bet eighty five K on them in one a million bucks. Yeah. I what I loved about that as for a long time. You know, tiger was the sucker bet in right majors end, so casinos or or sports books. Whatever made a ton of money on people who were like, oh, man. I'm gonna bet tiger. I don't even follow golf. But I love tiger. I'm gonna just we're basically like letting their money on fire because most of the time like you were never even in his best. He was winning whatever eighteen percent of the majors. And this time I love that. Like tiger soaked them became that letters casinos. Like looking in the couch could've or coins to sort of meet tiger out location. So that's a little bit of joy -able payback in the situation. I don't remember where I saw this all tweet play across on Sunday. The just said Vegas about the grab their ankles right now. Lost it. We got a good question from Josh bore SAIC. I think I may say that right over under six point five years until tiger finally embraces, his baldness and goes full buzz or shave so segments, my girlfriend like, you know, I don't understand. Why hasn't done it already? And she was like, you know, not everybody looks good like with fish shaved head like he you know, Jordan was able to pull it off because he was like a really handsome do naturally aid in the his whole arc of his career. Was like, you know, he was a bald guy essentially or he was worth so tight that essentially going ball was not a different. What do you think? Tiger would look like if he buzzed at tight like I, you know, I'm I'm just surprised honestly that he hasn't embraced it considering a Jordan guy anyway in I think he would I think it would look. Okay. But I don't know maybe six getting this is the easiest one ever for me. He needs to shave it again in the diet blonde. Like he did MEK in the mid two thousand. When he looked like June towel from rush hour like everybody wins in that scenario. I don't see what the possible reason against that picture. The picture would after Trump was elected not getting there. It's it's the MAC daddy Santa thing either playing that is the one of the most surreal pictures ever of tire with the the big blonde goatee in the blonde hair and Trump is like hairs sticking out sideways, and he's barely stuff in a shirt. Like that is you could not have shown anyone that picture in two thousand and been like let me tell you about what's happening to these two guys next twenty year. It's wild soon as I saw Trump's tweet on that. He was giving tiger the presidential medal of freedom. Like, you mean that guy that showed up in the MAC daddy Santa to play golf with you like I. So. Also, like, I mean, could Trump try to steal the moment firm self anymore? Like, I'm giving this medal. It's just be quiet and let the man have his like. This is something that like Obama gave to Charlie Sifford. When like he was like eighty five like what exactly does I love tiger. What is he done to get the presidential medal of freedom at this moment? Odd thing a couple more here quickly one in this may be incredibly obvious. But I don't think I've really heard it talked about in this in this realm yet of not only Tigers three short major wise of Jack. Now, he's one short of the green jacket, total one more major. He's got five Jack six which is kind of kind of remarkable Neil Smith asked. We know Jordan speeds ceiling is crazy high. But how low is his floor. How much further down the official world golf rankings? Will he go before turning around? Boy, the heavy question. I know I was I think I've floated this question in our chat. The when we briefly thought that it looks like speech was like talking to Sean Foley about something. And that was like, no. No. I mean, I like some Foley released great interview. And obviously, whatever is done with Justin Rose worked great. The last thing you want is like a young player to start like thinking like oh, man. Like when we rebuild my swing. Go completely different philosophy like to me as long as speak sticks with camera McCormick. And kinda keeps figuring things out like he'll come back and get hot. Again. He just may be the kind of player who goes through the no sort of searching periods. And that's some of his inability hit it super far and his inconsistency with easy straightness with the putter. Whatever is going to make him that kind of player. I mean. On some level. Does it matter? How far you fall in the world rankings like who gives a shit in some of your good enough to get into the terms. You wanna play the WDC's like or whatever is not Expedia like in danger of losing his card or is not gonna be exempt for majors, whatever. So I think he even if he kept falling he could still sort of like play professional golf in figure it out until he kind of got what what you're what we're asking is gonna keep falling forever and lose it. No. I don't think so an N if as long as you accept that premise that. I don't think it matters. What is world ranking as if he's fortieth in the world no-one having seen him be the number one player in the world think anyone thinks he's you know, the fortieth ranked player in the world. But you know, he might he might just be top ten player for the rest of his career. And that's that's that's okay. Yeah. I would say so top ten in the world that the spoke. Yeah. That's pretty good like to top ten in the world. And whatever it is. I I have I have complete faith in him. My good friend. Jordan speed told me on our on the podcast that his swings figured out. You take away that front nine on Thursday, which I know you can't do part of the deal if you took a bay every player's worst nine holes, you know, sound a lot like the same but put him behind the eight ball, and he played a lot of really good golf to make it, you know, to get back in contention not in contention, but to make it respectable. So it was a fine showing but kind of a microcosm of his season of a lot of good going on. But man, the bad when it's bad is not it's so bad that can't be overcome. And you can't really intend. So last one he's he's going to attend a pebble. I promise you. I like that. That's my last one I want to get your thoughts, Mr. player on CBD oil. It seems to be all the rage there on the on the circuit. Have you have you dab ended at all yourself CD? I've never heard such thing. I I would sometimes I would go to the garage and just take a sip. Of motor oil like how deep down it's test is intestines. And and seeing if you know if he's going to cross this right through he's gonna be rolling in pain and lose five more pounds and Trump stomach, willow. Sickness. What is Stevie oil? I don't even again, no Toronto's tweeting about the gum thing. And it's all the rage amongst the players privately. But what I don't get it. What is it? It's kind of like I've heard a lot of good things about it. It's just like a calming. It's kind of like THC guy people that actually know about this are probably going to have their head spinning with my explanation of it. But kind of like THC, but it's totally legal and just this like a kind of helps relieve anxiety and just watching kind of Tigers. And I I cannot confirm or deny that he is on CBS taking CBD or anything. But we saw Phil take a Turkey paster to his tongue at one point. I don't know what that was. But I don't think it was koffler. But yeah, it's supposed to just kind of relieving Zayed's. Maybe it helps with the nerves when you play golf. Maybe we should try it. I don't know. Maybe we need a CD sponsor or something like that. But. For for the for the listeners. Sometimes I'll give a little a little warning the cave on what we're gonna tear up for Gary Player. I gave no warning on anything this week. So the motor oil have no air did not see that coming. I was saying before I wanted to be happy being a top ten player in the world at anything. I think maybe I'm sneaking the top tens of Gary Player impressionist on. Maybe maybe Connor Scatcherd. I dunno. Where drank exactly, but I think I'm somewhere. That's the best Gary Player impersonator on this podcast for sure. So that is fabulous. So proud Kate. Thanks for jumping on this morning in helping us kind of put this historic moment golf. I have no problem saying that may be obvious. But this moment into perspective for us. And makes me feel even better about all the things I was feeling internally about what we just witnessed. So you know, what? Sometimes sports saw we get to experience just really cool ship. And I. Will be forever sort of thankful for all the fun sort of conversations that we've had about tiger. That was sort of building up to that masters because it made it all the more worth it. Because really like everyone everywhere was having those same conversations about tiger in in some ways. Like, we're almost like traffic cops directing that we're goes in. So whether it was humorous or silly, or whatever all the payoff was there. And I I it's hard to it's weird to be happy for someone. You don't know. Like, I've I've talked tiger in press conferences of, you know, aside, certainly don't know him like, but a wheels really happy for him in that moment. It was just kind of a cool thing. And that's why it's sports is undefeated, man. You just can't you can't can't be as the best. I'm glad that this is my life. If you had to guess what line? I'm going to end this with what line? I would choose. What it what would you guess, can you guess it? Oh, man. What's the one question? I've been asking our group text for years and years and years. But what if we won? But what if he warned? A new one now. Where am I to say that what every day until he went to the one God what you said that when he played in the Bahamas right for the first. Yes. So it was like that's why. He does spend the Elvis a ride gave me. Thanks time in cheers, always buddy. Always. Feeder right club today. That's better than most. About in is better than most. Expecting?

Tigers Tiger Woods golf Phil US Brooks Gulf Twitter Jack Nicklaus Augusta Gary Player Phil guy Michael Jordan Rick Reilly Kevin van Valkenburgh sevi Kevin Peter Damon apple
NLU Podcast, Episode 257: Kevin Van Valkenburg

No Laying Up

1:25:31 hr | 1 year ago

NLU Podcast, Episode 257: Kevin Van Valkenburg

"Beater right club today yeah that's better than most about it is better than most battle all right guys welcome welcome back to the no laying up podcast solly here going to get to our interview here shortly with kevin van valkenburgh i wish i had a good great reason why cave vivey was on i just i texted him and said i wanted to do some kind of off season podcast with him you don't really need a great reason to have k v v on he's one of the smartest people in golf one of the easiest guys to talk to and throughout some questions on our message board asking our some of our refugees to send some questions in k v is of courses one the most thoughtful guys out there and he's getting all the questions there on the message board that we didn't get to in the interview because this one went pretty long we also cover five things we wanna see in this next year in golf off and also three things we each which we never said just come some kind of random somewhat offseason topics but really really enjoyed this i think you're gonna you're gonna enjoy this have several interviews coming down the pipe here in the coming weeks and look forward to getting those out to you we really excited about what we have on on the rise in here checking in with our friends from callaway our friends at odyssey golf the number one putter engulfed stroke lab black ten and the bird of prey putters you've heard us mention there now available at retail and online the super high MO designs is delivering ultimate performance already the number one model on tour and it's only been out there for four weeks just go just go to odyssey golf dot com check out the stroke lab black ten putter and look at it you'll see exactly why it's very popular it's pretty hard to lineup putt wrong with this putter you stand over at i've tested out a little bit haven't fully put it in the bag but a couple of our guys are already using this putter couple couple putts have on the putting green they threw it right in the bag it's pretty easy adjustment whenever i do make the change from my putter chad's trying to get me to change i just love my my oh works putter in the micro hinge insert on that and when you make a change it will be to the stroke lead black ten putter i need to get out there and make a commitment to for more details on that odyssey golf dot com as well as callaway golf dot com also going to check in with our friends at urban active we still get a lot of questions about about this how do you spell it what is is the CD company that we've been talking about is herbal active you are b. a. l. a. c. t. i v. people are like hey what's that CB deal so you're using it is not oil it is a water base oil does not go very well with your body and water does it has no THC you're not gonna get high from it it is just a very soothing calming thing that we put in our coffee they a couple of drops before we go to bed i've been sleeping a lot better have some fun crazy dreams with the CBC deep but i do sleep completely through the night and it's just a nice level setter we've really enjoyed it and we've heard all the nice things we've had to say about it you are be a l. ACT IV dot com that's black dot com for more information and i'll you twenty for twenty percent off of any purchase you make on the website without any further delay here is our discussion with kevin van valkenburgh and everyone have a great week ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the nolanda podcast i would say friend of the program but it it might be best friend of the program recurring guest mr kevin van valkenburgh from ESPN k v what's going on i i hope cowboys and crying somewhere now after hearing that i'm the best friend of the program but you know things in people you know i texted you and kyle to do off-season kind of weird grab bag podcast cast and he didn't even respond i know everyone's got that's why you can kick it i just saved them up every month and then i hope that someday i'll get a text from you and then i just launch it well everyone else has a pod now so it's hard to hard to track some of these guys down and cal all councillors i didn't have my number my new number some reason whatever so we get the refer to myself as you know noling up adjacent you know they could not not exactly but you know jason to the fans that is a great great way to to describe it since we don't have to pay you and we still get the last time you were on was i swear this is kind of coincidence but it was right for tiger on the masters i believe and you you helped kind of bring that into perspective and help us to kind of digest the enormity of that situation which i still feel like people still kind of went away quicker than i think it should have have obviously with him winning zo is not quite the same level but i do feel like this one's kind of drifting away rather quickly it was a a minor blip on the sports radar dr that he won another golf tournament what did this win signify anything for you a week we're recording this on friday the week after the zone what did it did it hit you you in any way dr tigers really good against limited fields when's he gonna win one against the fulfill emotionally this did not do much for me not really like super inspiring and like already had sort of emptied the cannons on tiger takes a now it made me feel emotionally so so you know he drove it good i think i think maybe we got a little bit excited last year thinking like oh my gosh like the season's going to be awesome and what we found was that he was just emotionally just out of gas and you know that's why like him just basically being a non factor the end of the year seems a lot more like oh okay now that makes sense like he really a plus putting everything he had into you know getting back through championship and winning the masters sort of flipper season and then all of a sudden it was like oh wait like that was really hard mountain to climb and maybe emotionally like he's not ready to grind it out at the val spar whatever this year so i think this is hopefully correct me if i'm wrong is the six thousand surgery on his knee one okay thank you that's hopefully that will maybe benefit him a little bit more theorists beginning of the season and we'll see a little bit more consistent play i you wonder like is tiger is going to be you know how phillies to be like just pretty good at the early part of the season and then kind of fade late that'd be okay with that i i'm a little a bit i guess i thought for sure i picked him to be like a contender portrush because i was like oh the ecorse where nobody's ever been before really and it's is going to be firm and fast and the weather's going to be factor and you can hit irons off all the ts like that sounds like tiger to me and then he was just like basically like blood which we're told are we on here i i don't care what's going on so that was the one of the more disappointing performances i think of his major career and i was like oh maybe i kinda completely misjudged where he was with the entire game and he's just pretty much like hey i'm the masters champion so who gives a crap about the rest of this year so i'm hoping we'll get a little bit more of a complete effort healthwise out on this year well i think a lot of us had come to terms with that you know this whatever aging aging version of him his best chance to win majors was going to be open championships and we've kind of always had that in her mind eileen thought i mean augusta is so much more challenging from a driving perspective then it was when he won his previous four and i know they linked it before the two thousand two and he won that year office in two thousand and five but they linked it again before two thousand six and not just lengthening it is not necessarily made it harder it's just the trees that they literally planted lantis on the sides of some of these airways that you know make it not okay to miss fairways by a wide margin and honestly if the eleventh hole the path over there that was okay for a ball to go way right go away and it actually landing on the kitty litter over there twice yes i think if i remember right then i don't know if he wins that thing and i so i think from that perspective i tried to emphasize this when he won it was coming down the stretch he had like a ten to twelve to fifteen percent chance of winning this thing before the twelfth hole happened before when the water twelve and it's not not and we can all fall in this trap of assuming that pass results are going to predict future things we're gonna do a little segment here on things that we wish we never said i have one on there that i'm surprised his rubbed in my face more than they have i got more and more than one but one of those being like hey just because roy like just because we're he won four majors doesn't mean he's gonna win for the next four years and so i think we all kind of thought this might be you know a lot of us would have said i wouldn't be surprised at tiger one other major before the end of the year and he was a complete non factor the question i think remains and we've seen and we've got an update now enough instances of this happening where people somewhat written him off and he's come back to just say it has to be health correlated almost every dip has to be health correllated so how does he balance wresting with staying sharp tournament reps the scuttling the hardest question right i mean i was i think i've joked about like why would you do anything but play in the major essentially like just play practice rounds player money games and just basically like show up for majors are exempt for everything for life but clear he needs some wraps like he needs to actually actually have tournament stuff that actually gets him he would say that's a dumb take by me uptake come stuff ever made you'd take but i think that we do that on everything by the way every tide we say the word really really really work visas but horrible yeah i mean he's got to figure out like what are the right tournaments to plan and what wants to just straight up skip and that's i think the thing that always always annoys me a little bit is tires done so much for golf and made so many people so much money that i feel like at this stage age of his career that he should just pick and choose whatever works for him and not do like there should be no one in the raiders saying like hey like you know snidey we do really need him at this journey like this tournaments hurt and you know what if that tournament is hurting you had sixteen years of tigers career to fix it and you know one more go round is going to help it and save it long term room for the future and so that's why if if he wants to play a royal melbourne he should play i was gonna say see see at presidents cup right but everytime you're saying your the idea that he should you know that they should be pressuring him to play because like they're trying to help out australian golf like that's not a tiger problem the you can figure that out out on your own he should get to pick and choose whatever he wants and you should look at your bank accounts and see the literally billions of dollars that he has put into them and be grateful grateful for that and not asking for anything more because whatever his goals are going forward they should be his goals and no one else's yeah and that's where i wonder with his and we're gonna talk some about this too how his content deal with golf tv and that their relationship discovers relationship with the PGA tour how that factors actors into his involvement with the PGA tour right because now discoveries armed just continues to get you no longer and longer there reaches longer and longer now they're gobbling pulling up actual independent media organizations or or i should say an organization that presents themselves as being independent that now no longer is is they are owned by the way i guess for the listeners can you help me explain because i don't really know if i could the relationship between wean discovery which owns golf TV and the PGA tour who has an arm and who earn investment reach and who and how that all works together god that's a great question that i don't know that i could answer intelligently i mean i think that the sort of that's the hardest part about all this stuff right is that media conglomerates are so oh like overreaching and everything this includes my own employer and so everyone's hand is sort of tied directly into the sports that they broadcast and so what favors are being asked behind the scenes and stuff that you know what's being over you know expense account dinners what's being sort of asked to be like hey we really need need tiger on such such thing we really you know whether it's the NBA we really need this game in this broadcast slot like i don't know the answer to that and it's i i guess a little bit sad that some of those things dictate decisions of athletes have to make or whatever but that's the modern world like there wouldn't be an enormous billion dollar business deals if people executive weren't saying like how can we leverage this going forward for our own interests of our own financial interests etan i think what's going to be interesting and you know no one really knows this is that the the contract for CBS is coming up soon right like the with the PJ so what happens going forward what point we've talked a lot about the NFL and stuff has like we'll someplace does the NFL just say can we just put everything on the NFL network and if you wanna watch NFL you gotta have it on you know it's it's so beneficial the NFL and it's so popular that of course they're not going to do that because they can sell it to know that broadcast networks for CBS and fox and NBC four billion dollars but could the PGA decide you know what we're a niche sport and we feel like this is going to benefit us better what have we just put everything on discovery what if that becomes the competitor the golf channel and where we broadcast like all kinds of good stuff and we keep throwing up all kinds of cool content there that's not available in house what would that do to golf you know it's sort of if you look like the way that everything's trending and everything's going towards streaming and less kind of on television at some point the PGA tour is never been particularly forward thinking a lot of things but what if my hands like you know what this is actually our chance to sort of stamp this as our own kinda deal and we're going to appeal to the junkies we're not going to try to bring in like this huge audience anymore we're gonna put it where we want to put it in have exclusive content there and that's what we're gonna roll yeah that's i've been very careful as to what i've given out is what i what i hear on the tv negotiations and that it is it's a moving it's not at least as far as i can tell it's still a moving in in progress aggress kind of thing i don't think what you just referenced is going to be the deal quite confidently say that won't be the case for this at least this round of negotiations i don't i think they're ready i know for fact they're not ready to say we are taking it all in house and we're doing this all is mostly because of that last part you said and in part of their a big part of their marketing strategy is hey let's just deal it's definitely not let's deal with are hardcore fans let's just present to them because their the whole thing is trying to get a ton of engagement across multiple platforms with this what i would consider nonexistent fan out there that they think exists in trying to reach these all these casual fans and draw them into hardcore fans but really kind of not giving up i would from an outside view i would not say they're delivering bring on that on that strategy so it is going to stay on network TV in some capacity what that looks like is still a variable but i know it is going to look different front but the overall point being like we're not journalists on our side we are just golf fans you are a journalist but i'm sure you through your career you you can see it functioned more than it that a dozen the current society of there used to be like really independent media that would report on these sports in things and the issue i kinda see with a lot of these in these in house and group content deals and this is going to be radio segment later on five the things we wanna see next year and i'll just give away one of mine right now that i wanna see these golf content deals work for the fan and start to be something that are productive whether that be golf off pass or gulf TV or with rory and tiger what you've done what they've inherently done i mean the tigers getting paid a lot of money from discovery to tigers never sat down and talked about some of these things and like done these videos and all of a sudden you know there's a ton of money behind it if he's doing shot shaping videos on the range now and all this stuff enough so imagine how much poll he has from within that organization and that doesn't just mean that you know these networks works aren't gonna show negative things about tiger tiger once a highlight clip taken down or if his team wants taken down it's going to get taken down and guess what his agency represents a lot of players on tour so not only does tiger had that polls they can they can say look what i don't like this matt kuchar debate of a ruling being posted on PGA tour dot com it's gotta come down and it just like i all these things are not serving the fan i think and it's just it's kind of a scary and slippery slope that things are trending towards an icee someone that has conflicts of interest of course and we try to be as up front with those as we can but do you see is is that as a journalist journalist is that weird you out anyway the way things are somewhat trending in golf yeah i mean larger question as it turns out and society too so like you know it's you're never gonna see the washington post right of deep dive expose and amazon right and so like there's one of our most important media organizations that can't touch like maybe the most powerful thing and business and so you see reflection of that in everything and i think you know one of the examples i thought was was the most absurd of this last year was jon rahm the players you know he's trying to hit a two hundred yard hard draw the sand over the water at the players has you know sort of really fascinating in discussion with his caddy about it and everyone who was washington players was like oh my gosh this is a great clip this is exactly what we want and of course you know it gets taken down like as soon as it's not we're not talking about like a rights violation because like off sham put it up you know it wasn't there was some we all saw the broadcast like this happened so like a race it as though it's like state run media and like the the dear leader is offended by the idea that you know anything unflattering would get out there that's a super frustrating as a fan and so yeah it does bug me it does bug we think about how many magazine articles of a publication connected to a certain player a agency or whatever that they're just kind of puff pieces that there's nothing hard digging in there i think everyone is facing the reality which is that media doesn't have the power in a lot of ways anymore independent media because if you're if you're a rory look what is the benefit to you to sitting down with ESPN and saying like hey just ask me whatever you want like i i i wanna be on the cover of this or i think it's good for me to be on this he can do his own podcast he can do his own sort of magazine shoot where he says hey you know what don't talk to me about the subject is subject this subject or else i'm gonna pull out of the interview and so if you're someone who values like independent journalism and being able to actually talk to someone about something that's not their you know their charity organization or whatever hey that's that's important but that's not super the old that's the guardrails that we're going to focus on rolling gonna say we'll greater you like a wonderful of the things that you're doing like that doesn't present a pretty complete picture and so i think that's one of the i i think who i don't i don't pretend to listen to a lot of golf i just you know it doesn't relieved the limited exposure that i've had to it's not been particularly interesting so i've kind of given given up on ever you know buying whatever the episode i think but i think that that's what's kind of a bummer about it in enlarges that no one's gonna ask rory like i think hard questions on any of those podcasts and yet he's the one player who's actually pretty good at handling all that stuff at seeing the big picture of stuff so it's like we've taken the most interesting player player and made him totally bland because like he realized okay i can i can sign this deal and i can make money off this and i don't have to ever for say anything because i'm like hey guess what i'm doing this podcast i gots mike exclusive window into the world and yeah that's that makes sense for rory okay but as a fan that makes sense for me and that's that's a bummer a yeah it just yeah just i don't know who else has the pull the tiger and rory have that could did you know go this route lebron has done things like this and because i don't want to be speaking from an ivory tower here like we we you know for in exchange for access excess we are we have to cooperate in a lot of ways you know i mean it's like everyone that works in media has to we can't show it's just a function of how things work right and it's it's a tough tough line find a balance it's something we try to be cognizant of and you know we hopefully no wind pull the plug on refraining from saying something when it's really deserved call it out but yeah i think all that stuff works together into like golf some of the best stories of the year the most i don't wanna say viral i just hate that word but the most talked about stories of the year like couture and his caddy that rahm thing at the players was awesome it just basically anything that stirs up controversy not is so freaking good for golf if you want if in line with your marketing strategy of trying to reach this casual fan those are the things that are going to do it and not wow this guy is a class class guy and what a model citizen an unbelievable role model for the kids and it's like it's not not playing dirty it's like giving them more real picture into how things actually are in totally it's not it's not the up and down podcast on the PG door network doc with LED promise that's not the one that's gonna really it's not an answer to a question anyone else's asking and we have now in the few podcasts the in the many podcasts have done with you i we've probably bagged on golf past few times in part because we kind of know roy can take it because it's like generally like there are plenty any of other conflicts of interest that we probably don't touch because we don't want to ruffle too many feathers in that sense but like it's frustrating it's it's a you know so much when so much of your sport tied up with corporate money and that's basically what is the you couldn't have PG tournaments unless you you've had sponsors to sort of put them on it's not like it's a league where like hey here's our games and you can come in the ticket prices are the sort of main function of why people are how how you pay for what you got your ticket tickets on TV like someone's got to put up twenty million dollars in order to have the farmers insurance open right right yeah but that's it's where it's where i think like the tour is actually in a really good spot to turn their i guess to i don't want to give hardcore fans the middle finger i if i if i'm talking to jay monahan and i say like hey man like and i told him this mckay sometimes it's hard to watch golf on TV it's hard to watch it he he doesn't say this but if i'm him i'd be like okay like well wha- what's my job here i put money in the player's pockets i keep sponsors happy and like if you know if there's enough people watching it that keep the sponsors happy that make the players a lot of money why would i would i russell that like what is my duty is not to you as a fan which sucks but that's the reality of the situation and of course the argument against that's like how long can this go on if people aren't watching ratings took a tumble this year it's hard to judge what ratings ratings even actually are because of tiger always being a factor in that and just the constant and we don't know what his involvement is going forward but they can kind of negotiate shade on the fact that he is going to be around in some capacity so it is just like a an unanswerable question it's just vent it from frustration for you you know at at the heart of it all of course we're just go fans and we're trying to trying to represent the golf fan best as we can and just so much of what is going on out there this is not serving the golf often here's my counterpoint to like i guess what what we are sort of pretending like the monaghan argument be actually made this point about the deadspin sort of controversial sisaket that's been basically like went away and there was some argument over like what kind of traffic they should be focused on is that what companies are or are going to realize realize is that it's not the total amount of viewers that you have it's how loyal the viewers that you have are to to the place where you're trying to advertise okay so if i have twenty million people who watch a tournament let's say half of those tigers tiger and phil or dueling at the pastors whatever it brings a huge amount of casual fans those casual fans aren't going to be like oh my god when is the US open like wind can i watch the players after this when can i get the next herman they're gonna be like okay we'll tell me when tigers next time out orcas i don't care only interested in tiger and so i think in some ways like what i hope that companies sort of start to understand is if you provide like a really loyal fan base too that are connecting your product and have like feel good about it they're much much more likely to want to like actually spend money on the products that are being endorsed on the program or the connection there making as saying like hey these gallery drivers drivers great like whatever they're going to have warm feelings about the ad warmer feelings about the ads that are on there as opposed to like hey let me hurry tvos through this because i want to get the next shot and they're just going to get winward exposure to it they're going to constantly be bombarded with ads from the same mm-hmm golf company or the same insurance company and if they even if they are get annoyed a little bit like you know by the standard and hall of fame stuff like it's still going to penetrate their skulls is a little bit but they're like hey no mega watchman where is that five years now that we're still remembering that from i'm pretty sure like like the best low key best ad rudd of we've recycled back to i wanna get into you know we we we touched on one of the questions we got here but i'm going to do are the few topics that we did prepare which is the first one being five things you wanna see in the next year in golf and i don't know about how how you came up with your list of five but mine are like avoiding the tiger grand slam i don't have rory winning a major on their some really obvious stuff like i'd love for speed to win the masters there's a lot of things i think are pretty obvious that i'm kind of went to the next level to it to be like here's some things i'm realistically looking out for but i'll let you go first okay mine's come first one's kind of reverend they have have some serious ones but this one said to be i would like golf dot com or golf digest or dot com or whoever like three ideas sonar saw here to hire an actual physicist and get him immediate credential for the week to pose actual physics questions bryson during a tournament i want like physics twitter to like ride hard for real physics okay after the whole terminal velocity thing at the masters i was like am i being bamboozled here because like terminal hermit velocity might be the one physics term that i have a working grasp of so when he dropped and i was like wait that's not right like is price and actually like the monorail salesman from the simpsons like what is going on here i think the most google of all of them to like that doesn't work then that commercial oh where he and tiger like talking about like brice talking physics i'm like wait a minute tigers the stanford guy here and prices SMU guy tiger's playing the meathead this whole i think feels like inception maybe i don't really think that bracelet knows what he's talking about it but this so unless bryson's like some sort of like sasha baron cohen character and he's been wing us this whole time i want physics fact checking like in the mix oh god that's an idea i'm wondering if we get credit for that for for we could hire a one-week physicist assist for that that has me what i'm also out on is golf commercials were the two subjects or whatever the multiple subjects are that are filming it or not in the same room and it's very clear like a one shot over to a one shot one shot and saw the scripted conversation the reason why the tiger and connor sketches commercial works is because they're in the same room together and they're laughing about it the gulf TV run before the with japanese lesson was surprisingly well done considering they weren't all in the same room together and i know it's a lot harder to do that all the production that goes into that but it is immediate turnoff back nope they're not the same room i am not paying attention to this we'll also how funny is the like the european tour stuff for all in the same boardroom they're like oh how it just shows you how much more like dry and funny like english people are in america like those guys just are so don't take themselves seriously enough enough to wear it's fun like i would be hard for me to like put think of who what americans you could put in the room lit likes tencent in westwood and fleetwood and an eddy and have a similar kind of vibe i don't know i mean it would have to be like the lesser guys right there have to be max homa and have to be i don't know how you who else thrown there but like if you put like JT in speeds and pricing in their rookie whore from the player of the year last year all you put those two together it's this election that bad boys coming home and me man thanks bro okay does pornography quality acting there that it's v we need to work that into into more into more content next year that by boys coming home with me i do have a i wish i would have gone on war with that i do have a bright one related related when later i'll start off with a somewhat serious one but i wanna dustin johnson win a major i think again he doesn't quite fit in that obvious bucket of like hey yeah of course we want that guy to win and i don't think that's going to be a huge popular win for golf fans or anything but we're talking about like one of the most talented players of the generation that it pays to be a huge bomber and he has won a ton of golf tournaments it's and when he finally broke through and won the US open i think a lot of people felt like that more word to come and we just got done talking about how that's not necessarily the case but the amount of opportunities he's he's had to only have one to two just puts you in a totally different category and he deserves to be in that in belongs in that and i want to see him do and also because big randy has issued him twelve months to live and he will be officially pronounced dead yeah god clock clock is ticking i talked about that and he laughed very hard at saying that he was he was living six feet under par we don't observatory and yet they went put him behind a paywall and we only get to hear about these little snippets well that's i'll just go right into my second one which is the golf content content deals need to provide the fans something value a lot of money there's a lot of suits involved which automatically is just gonna trim out probably the most interesting parts of it but nothing really noteworthy has come of it and i just i we already talked about the sun but that was one of my things i wanted to see this clearly going this route so i want the gulf world it'd be better for it i'm not trying to i'm not i'm not trying to hog the content for us necessarily i wanted to be out there for the gulf world to enjoy you know if some of our most interesting characters going to go that route i want it to be something that people talk talk about and i i don't think that's currently happening gimme ping pong matches like in the bastards houses that they ran to whatever or like you know a window to dinner like the week of the tournament you know where people gather around in his his cut and takes at the table woah it's something fun something that's exactly like not staged inc something very uncut is fine there's something something real we wanted to be real so all right your second one i want to see pat perez win a tournament i don't share the same politics but perez says is one of the real ones man tat as i talked to i walked up to him to for a feature that i was writing about someone else last year and i was like man it was like on the ranger of era era big tournament rib and i was like hey i could talk to you for five minutes you smoking cigarettes is a fucking i'll talk to we talked for thirty thirty minutes and even smoke cigarettes the whole time and like hit one handed wedges and like firing off all these takes about capper nick about arnold palmer and about patrick green and the president oh my god it was awesome at fascinating because he truly gives no fs he just doesn't care about stuff and and he kind of got like he one of the things we talked about in the thing was like how easily you can get screwed by like sort of one comment like a viral viral sort of taken about his thing about tiger essentially saying he knows he's not good enough to win right now and you know every blog and the world like picks it up and it was like oh my god pepper don't don't get on tiger woods ungrateful shifted and that wasn't like if you understood the context of it pepper has is like saying he is only going to play tournaments that he snows like the he can compete in knows he's not good enough right now which was exactly true and so the idea that like perez was taken a shot at talker was just totally ridiculous and he's you know he's not along here at all and he knows exactly he's like one of those guys who knows what tournaments he can and can't have a chance in so i think it'd be fun i would just love to see him get into a press conference afterwards and just like nuke everyone who can just for fun because it would be great fun great content well the counter counter to everything i've said of like wanting real stuff is that also on the other side golf fans aren't prepared to take it like 'cause get real stuff we ruin it and we freak out and we make a big drama about pets comments though they're like nobody had an issue with it like the factual nature of the comments and it was just the fact that it came from a player which we should have been celebrating braiding it's awesome that that happened but so to your point you're you're talking like yeah you're gonna be like max homer someone to do it like what like what real reason do they have to do it right if you want to be known as the goofy guy and the loud mouth and you know people will throw it back in your face you've only won one tournament who are you to talk on this topic and it's like well yeah i mean that's that's true like okay i'll go back in my shell and that's what's gonna continue to happen forever nothing is dumber than like the idea that you have to have like credibility not to have won a lot to speak whatever even phil when he talks shit people were like with your tire okay so what does the bar like it only am AMC is allowed to criticize tiger or only can we get some smelling salts and wake up bobby jones and like get him to criticize people i mean it's just like absurd the idea yeah that like brando takes a lot of grief about one one tournament we'll guess what he played on the PGA tour like he led the masters around come on that's that's ought to be the bar are we clear the bar is my me and my eight shaky eight handicapped no like if someone played onto or they have a pretty good credibility to be able to speak about this guy issues is the perfect credibility right because they're not brand does not corrupted by relationships with a ton of the most powerful people in golf right so so like davis love i think is now taking over now for CBS i think he's a very nice guy i think he's an interesting guy i really do i think he's kind of been painted as a very boring person and i'll get to that here in a few in a bit as well but i don't think he is boring but i don't expect him to be really outspoken or or critical enough on television i think it's going to be very much the class axe open with him coming in and sliding to the CBS fold but it's a very safe role to play and i don't fault them for for playing it to be honest and that's i just think that you know someone like brando lives in that very that space of like yeah i'm not afraid to ruffle some feathers i don't have you know thirty thirty career wins to my name and a major that puts me in the golf hall of fame and makes me this figure in golf like i will speak my mind getting another guys that speak their mind it is i'll tell you the best dinner hangs and brando might be up there with one of the best dinner hangs i think i've i've had the game of golf so snake format format what's your third i wanna see justin thomas like contended a master's or british hasn't really contended in those two yet and i i just wanted to per i wanted to stay injury-free so he can sort of be returned to what kind of the peak of his powers like i can make a could minute argument at some point that he keeps going to be the best of his the generation of the speech brooks rahm pricin ricky sorta group and i i wrote something once that he was like hey this guy might be our johnny miller guy who just get hot and who is is inefficient afraid to go deep and you know now sort of feel like this is kind of one of the important years for JT really sort of be that person yup i like that i mean i think it it was hoped maybe heading that way before he got injured this past year and i think the injuries make people forget about them to release a little bit and and myself included i mean i think that you know we saw what happened this fall when he you know dial back in got healthy ones BMW wins the CJ cup yet again it should should be a big year next year form and i know the major championship performances way up at the top of his list of things to do to improve on along the same lines of a major championship chip i wanna see the PGA championship have an infinitely better setup than twenty nineteen it was one of them i just burned in my memory is it's more my least favorite viewing experiences of the year this past year it was the classic cone of everyone's going through this tunnel and only the long hitters are going to merge the other side ride unless you have a guy like speaker just gonna put his ass off for it they need to figure out a way to taper fairways i mean if you know letting the shorter hitters at least be in the fairway the ferries were so narrow at bethpage that even the shorter hitters just from a natural dispersion cone couldn't hold the fairways and the shorter guys are coming into greens from one ninety while the longer guys are coming into greens from one forty from the rough and it just so everyone's gonna miss fairways in the long hitters aren't punished for missing them because of the fact that you know they just rewarded from being closer to the green and being able to hit nine irons out onto the green so having been a harding park seeing where some of those teaser is going to be long long as hell but i'd like to see you know landing areas if guys wanna lay back hit three woods to wider parts of the fairways and come in from two hundred yards into some of these par fours while other guys can try to get it in narrow necks fairways hitting the rough and get a little bit of punch before i'm fine with that i just wanna see i know aaron hill's get so much criticism for that opens because of how soft soft played but we ended up with brian harman verse brooks kepco which was to completely different playing styles and it let let's lot more people in and maybe i'm just working off this i read recently read the gulf dot com the player survey and the question there was two questions within it and it was what's what's harder to win the players of the PGA and like seventy eight percent or something like that said the players because it's like hey everyone can win this one so okay if you wanna be a major like be a hard tournament to win i mean i guess shorter hitters would say it is harder to win the PGA because of the that prerequisite but maybe they're just who would they were surveying which is some of the more top players but and then the next question was which would you rather win the PJ players and it was flipped like inverted and it was like yeah the PG most people win win that it just goes back to the the thing we've set for a long time it's the PGA just has no identity we just don't know what it's supposed to be is a hollow you can't be US open light is is what i'm saying like that is not nobody's winning there i don't think is if a holler bethpage i guess my other side bethpage's to secretly just a bad major vendor might might be slog my my my fourth one here yes okay so the US open this year is june the eighteenth to the twenty-first all right do you know when the senior US openness i do not is the following week because at rhode island country club and phil mickelson will be fifty years i i had a feeling as soon as you said that i had always cover at winged foot where i think you'll have zero chance to you do what he did music but then he could just basically drive down ninety five or drive up ninety five to whenever to rhode island i'm totally butchered what interstate take care of it i'm not familiar with northeastern and would he feel could totally go out and try to win the senior US open it would be so fun he could just do it be like well why not you know what tournament i'm eligible for it i'm gonna come out here and try and throw them and then man phil want seniors opened the takes would be so fun because it's got the career grand slam lamb who said the career grand slam had to be all four of the PGA what can be the senior PG this is not gary player of the majors around on the yeah fifteen pages as had cervical touched me literally they did change the how they recognize your majors because he won some senior opens it was like hey those should count stav ourselves with protein drinks we just put it on the cheeseburger we went through i want to get to a question about that era here shortly here but my next one is kind of where i wish i would have gone with more of these but i wanna see someone blow up at bryson i wanna see it i feel like it boiled of this year it got to a simmer it just never they the stove got turned off enough players out there say things about him he was in that same golf dot com he was the vote of the top player that people didn't like to play with and people are waiting out you know brooks headsets and things about them and then kind of confronted him on the range JT JT did the whole look at his watch saying while he was doing his thing the northern trust i want somebody to lose it i would guess it's probably going to have to come from a non-american that won't be on like ryder cup and presidents cup teams with him but somehow it's gonna happen maybe it's our boy pat perez going to actually do it but he doesn't enough things that have pissed people off often it's it's something that people talk about behind closed doors and i just want somebody to give it to us i want the controversy i want i want the PGA tour dot dot com to have to scrub it from their website i want to get it for you okay how patrick read he would i have no problems doing it that would be just like gosh what's the comparison of that but there's there's no winners in that anybody's leads are like oh yeah go get a buddy we like the idea of like draymond green like fighting like dennis rodman or something appropriate but i think it has to come from like an eddie eddie pepperell got i guess he called him a twit here that that might be nominated but i don't know someone like louis westwood or someone to just get into it with them i'd like to see that okay i'm all in on that you find a one i would like to see a slow slow play penalty enforced i at a major just like with like the winner of the asian amateur or the latino amateur but like someone who is there really like two holes behind behind the pace like i'm not going to get greedy say they have to be in contention but it has to be like a player who is literally dragging his group down and rules visit comes in and you know what next warning is a shot penalty bom sorry i'm nailing he was shot and let this the sort of like eruption didn't handle it because i don't think that like the players ever think of it seriously enough and we need to have some kind of you know it has to be some we've had blatant cases of it and end i mean i think at oakmont few years ago we're talking like speech and zach johnson and bryson's group at oakmont was like at least a whole and a half maybe two holes behind and at some point and so you know i don't know how you pick out one which one of them but you just sort of say look you're all on the clock you're all being visually bam you're going to take a penalty yeah yeah well here's my question i'm sure it has to do with the way the rules are written but other rules in golf players can call penalties on other players why can't they do that with slow play i would be fascinating that like why can't brooks time bryson in and stroke him for i think what we need it is maybe for peppers to call the penalty bryson then just light him up like i say i keep coming back to our lord and savior patrick pat hi pat pat out there listening can you please listen to this podcast and do what we need what we need for golf we are heading to phoenix this week in trying to track him down for a podcast we have we were supposed to do it when we're in reno and he's like nah now gambling man i can't do it now so we running that's literally what happened was like he didn't just didn't respond to my tax for like two hours ago sorry i was gambling we'll do some other maybe you could just do it in the morning right here on the range while you spoke cigarettes and hit one ended wedges you wanna reschedule the mornings i'll be sleeping in school tuscon all right my last thing i wanna see tony in a big tournament i'm a big fan of his game i think he's been incredibly consistent and i'm so tired it's just seeing people immediately respond with always one win it's an opposite field event i've said it twenty million times those podcasters a lot more golf than than just winning or else they wouldn't pay a out all the other places and he is he's constantly constantly beating a lot of the best players in the world he very rarely only one time ever has he beaten all of them which is just i think a more of a more of a reflection of low i don't wanna say luck but more of a just being the bad side on the bad side of probability more than it is in the indictment of his game so i'm ready to see him win a big one players or something like that would be awesome WG see of course a major but just something that would basically something it's not an opposite field of example of just just like real quickly about how some of that is out of control remember what he's gained contention in china with zander like he hit a sprinkler head and the bound degreen the cow is that ah fair break you know just right he probably wins that tournament that doesn't happen that's that's just kind of completely ridiculous lock all right we got we're gonna do it so segment here on three things we wish we both wish we never said i can't wait to hear what you come up with on this and then i got a couple of questions from the refuge i wanna make sure i get to we do have some good ones but have all right let's start it off with you what's the what's the what's number one your list of things you wish you never said i mean i i try to not like oh yeah for those who are unaware like i was one time getting a haircut and it was like rug beyond and i was like it'd be really go leonard fournette or like you know like basically any american college football player and i just kind of made a joke like dash take like like if you got like urban meyer all the best like NFL players you totally dominate rugby i i literally the other day still got it like a death threat from new zealand that was eight months ago or something oh my god a new zealanders is not like flight of the conchords man they were so mean to me like they were like mike kilian you come as why not about fucking making but anyway i was like whoa so i guess i mean rubbing probably would be number one but why why do they sound a little bit scottish because all of my impression sound a little scottish saying that americans could dominate rugby would be number one they clearly spoken from a place of ignorance but you've acknowledged on your list what do you got i said after yeah i was at birkdale with you in fact and i said that it was inevitable that jordan spieth was going to win a PGA championship at some point and it was obvious that he was the best player of his generation i think brooks might have seen that in like bench press into the sun because obviously it's feats who is now i think fortieth the world has sort of gone into the weeds bit and i still encourage that this year they may come back and do okay but that was maybe a bit hyperbolic well do do you think he will win a PG or is this gonna be a double thing where you also regret regret the regret of saying that well whoa like the idea that like it was inevitable of course PGA seemed totally shortsighted and also like didn't perhaps take into account like that PJ's the as might be like bethpage all the time from now on like what if they set up harding to be super hard and he's forty yards behind you know some of the better players in eastern no no longer like the best six iron player in the world anymore and so i just my may maybe it was three in the morning when i was writing that and i didn't quite think of the the larger implications but my point was like the PGA doesn't really carry the physical the mental scars of the open liquid phil roy with the masters here's or he's i think will win another major at least a couple more but at some point i had him with eight oh it's keep racking these up yet uh well that's to my point i didn't that my my thinking with the PGA championship setup was in line with what you said about speed and that i don't want it to be you like just because it must be fan i don't wanna be catered to speed but what kind of a championship is this if jordan i if we're going to eliminate a guy with the town of jordan speed from winning what kind of a golf championship is the head maybe the main one of the all time greatest putting effort and he wasn't even close to being in contention so right and so like even he said he was going to be the one that's hard for me to win it's like well what are we why why why is that going to be the case why do we have to do that and i'd just yeah so that's that's those those two things are lying i'll go with this one then for my first one i said that roy was gonna win ten major in speech was gonna win eight i think back today i forgot how many majors that we're played a year and i in my defense this was said when those two held all four majors shortly after speak on the fifteen the US open and there's like eight hundred people that listen to this podcast in that time so i felt like it was very safe thing to say please don't go back and look for other similar quotes but i would like revise both of those totals if i could and of the two i think it's more likely that speed gets to eight then roy getting ten just because he's younger but that's that's a lot till so only four guys have ever gone to so many but not gary player he he had four at the age of twenty five i didn't that wasn't an wasn't an insane thing to say it was just wrong yeah our what's next so so i made a lot of jokes along with a lot of other people maybe even someone hosting the spark about webb simpson back when he was texting his way onto dombrowski's ryder cup team but i'm all in on web now the best iron player in the world us if in strokes gained a off the tee total soaks gained last year and that's with ranking hundred and fourteenth on tour and putting an end driving the guy he's got to be a better the great putter again after the whole like figuring out the block thing but but like what was the baller the runner-up it was basically the only guys we're i'm coming to play hell you put web on the ryder cup team and whistling i don't care what does this do it and he earned a chance to basically play alternate shot every time we played it in one of these team matches web legitimately almost made one of my top three here as well i based on to my next one here but it was going to be kind of a similar thing and that web is the classic case for us of how we had to change our mentality once we actually started gaining audience that was was it became clear that people were acknowledging what we said we could we could be that's what i've been we couldn't not like a guy for no reason and it was basically like oh yeah his father's ugly let's make fun of that guy and that was not maybe not the best use of anything anyone's energy and it was like no i got it just became hard to explain like why do you dislike webb simpson like no i don't like i'm just making jokes and web is is a bona fide player that's not even up for debate and has kind of had a career renaissance sants after the anchor ban which should i don't know i don't wanna get sidetracked on that conversation but just kind of really wrexham really players lamentable of their career and web's one of those guys anger been really quickly is like hockey with the helmets thing he should like if you were you were grandfathered in more players layers beneath them with anchors but you're good to go so along the same lines i wish i never said anything along the lines lines of jim jim furyk being boring or stale and part of this i think is an indictment of the previous era of golf media media because it it sh- golf ends shouldn't have ever had that thought but that's a reflection of everything i had consumed in from him you know and it is not realistic for everyone out there but i was in the extreme fortunate position to actually talk to him personally for the first time two years ago when he came on the podcasts at a callaway add shoot and i i was blown away i'm like dude i've never heard you talk about these topics and at this length and how nice he was and not even like not even in the realm of of boring or dull in any way we're talking about a guy that has transcended generations with a style of play that has not aged well like he is basically the only guy from the previous era that didn't grow up bombing the ball that has survived this long he's almost in the top fifty in the world still coming back from all the injuries he's in the top five of the world as a five years ago and we filmed and this might be recency buys but we filmed a while world of golf with him eh jack speech golf club past week and he was awesome he was fond in after the round like trans can struggle with his wedge game he's come on let's go to the range and go back balls and way throughout toronto's struggling i know it's shocking developments spoiled part of the world of golf it off but what the game shipping like a wedge lesson and even like i said something to me your ball position is kind of creeping back in your state like the bad words you hit on you know thirteen eighteen was the ball is back in your stance but you had an a backup on sixteen and you hit a really good way as a co man rethought my position that it varies that much from shot to shot and then we're like hey do you wanna be loved one and we sat out on the picnic table and just told stories and here's the third greatest earner in the history of the game of golf hanging out in municipal golf course on his own time he had no obligation to us at all had a great time doing it and was just like man that sucks that for a long portion in his career i kind of thought of him as like the caricature for a dull golfer and maybe it's a reflection of me but i just was that was something i wish i never saw all any comments i would have made about in the past came from a place of ignorance and that's definitely something that i wish i never insinuated or contributed to i think maybe some some of it might be getting so comfortable with who he is that he could just kind of like cut open cut it up a little bit more now but i think you're maybe no one ever thought to like get jim vieques excuse thoughts on a lot of things i went up to riviera asked him some stuff for a story that still published by SPN someday who knows put an i talked to him a little the ryder cup and he gave some pretty good answers about it and it's he's he's one of the ruins to like he's he'll he'll give you the truth as close to what he can in admire that respect outta love to sit and pick his brain about a lot of things golf yeah no we need to get them back on the pod he's he's great in the world but we'll get some get some more thoughts from so all right you're up your lasting you wish never said this is not related because i mean i the obvious one for me it'd it'd be to pick maybe take him back that tiger call that i wrote where i said maybe you should go into teaching but you know in some ways if i helped motivate tiger to come back in the bastards like how ooh come on let's maybe six months ago or so i said like funny how like ben rothlisberger has convinced everyone that there's antonio brown's fall the thing broke up and i was like like the rethink now my anti rothlisberger the sentiment clouded me there you're so that would be one once called tom brady a weasel imprint you're going above and beyond the three things just kind a lot a lot of attention to CNN there's a lot of bad takes out there okay maybe land but i don't really get out over my skis too much but you know when you think about this tally of your career i mean there's no gary player takes you know where he some of his thoughts on the back in the day back right there but i won't even make jokes about that that's that's like i don't know how you got apartheid and things you should ever say solely let's just say it was a different time it was not something with pro alright so is there official third then that will just be my grandpa that's the grab bag at like seven different ones they're all right i wish i don't know if there's anything in particular i wish i didn't say before the two thousand eighteen ryder cup i do wish i phrased the hype leading into it better because clearly i aggravated some european opean fans to think that i thought the year the US team was going to stop the european team in retrospect i did say that they would win and i thought the US team is going to win i think that was just what i believe i really did think they were gonna win i clearly discounted what how much of a factor the golf course was going to be the and i think people thought i was the same guy that i was out ship the wrote the column that said the ryder cup was over and that it was nine going to be a competition anymore i also said before sixteen that the US win four of the next five which i do only got to win four in a row now three in a row one six that was my thinking was they're going to win sixteen they might lose eighteen they might they're going to win twenty they're going to win twenty twenty four and i think the flip the curse twenty two in italy do it does that does winning three in a row look a lot more challenging now yes it does but that's something i could be wrong wrong about in the future okay so i i i i just maybe wish i would have phrased that a little bit differently and i was also afraid to do dig too far back in the archives because people might say oh michael let's go episode twenty one to see what these guys had to say and i i'm terrified of what's what's actually i don't i hate to be checked about our pre rhetoric bonds but okay that's that's a you know it's like ship takes so much grief for that thing but like bamber picked him to like wind bad touchdown the US to admit touchdown seven points they like leary that week that's different calling the ryder cup over that's true let's get to some of the questions from the refuge through this out on in our on our message boards and got some really good ones we've touched on a few of these things within it one of them being this from robert hunter you've been pretty outspoken outspoken about geo media in the wake of dead spins whatever the hell is going on there his question for you where do you generally see nontraditional traditional sports journalism going in the next ten years forever going to be caught in the cycle of novelty turns into popularity which results in acquisition slash monetization sation that drives away the original user base how do you escape that cycle i'm mostly curious for your particular advice on this because that sounds like a could apply to there's some part of my life as well well i think that what we're going to have to get beyond is like the idea of altruistic sort of people buying media things for the good of society and like you know the these families families that used to run newspapers whether it was the schultz burgers or the you know the people who own the tribune company times all this stuff kind of generation of media that i up with where there's people like you know is a good thing for america that we're a good robust media that's kinda dead that doesn't exist anymore and i lost it yeah so i think that you're gonna have to like have many companies that provide that they're going to be smaller in scale i think and they're gonna have to provide content that's valuable that people will be willing to subscribe to like pay directly for so that you've removed the advertising model from it because like if you want truly independent media you can't have it like i think attached to you know a company that's basically saying a can't do this can't do that and so you know that's something obviously be real like it's hard to say if you ever wanted to criticize calloway like obviously wouldn't wouldn't do it that's something that you're a test let's at least you're upfront about that and that's i think where your credibility people ought to be able to decide for themselves like what credibility credibility is person have on this thing and so like that's i think an important part of going forward do i want a subscriber this desert credibility sort of matter and i don't know honest it's a billion dollar question if i knew the answer to how do i build an independent media sites that you know will not only please readers but make money like i would do it in a second because yes i would never have to work again and could play golf all the time but also someone saying to you do you want one fifth of five hundred million dollars dollars to give us knowing we do whatever you want with it you might be like okay gotta go ahead and do know someone you have fifty one percent of the voting outing interests of protrudes holding so i'm gonna go ahead and vote into us well that's where you know it is not a simple answer in like the some of the some of the criticism will receive you know is in relation to the fact that we have like sponsors and advertisers partners and i was wanna wanna tell people and i try to avoid you know engaging any of that because it's like what what would you rather would you prefer the alternative that we didn't exist like do you like do you think we should just do this for free like the we shouldn't be able to pay for the microphone that we're talking into the computer that's recording this and you know all and our time being evaluate truss bit to choose the model correctly and that's why we're always you know when people are coming at us for zander's driver ever going over is like hey you might wanna listen to us on this because we have this conflict of interest and there's a very good chance that you can easily connect the dots and want to believe that we we are covering calloway's ass on this and that wasn't the case but like if you wanted to believe that that's fine like trust us to be able to cover the other issues and we'll like bake make very clear conflicts are in other ones and like i think we hopefully do better than some of the journalistic entities within golf and disclosure for is an important part of it like if you're going to promote like jack nicklaus courses and you know that you're and ryan balaji went hard at this on twitter for the sort of golf magazine whatever the other day and i think it was fair totally like if you're going to promote this stuff you need to disclose that you have a financial partnership with and you guys always disclosed that there's there's a thing that runs of every of every video that's like special thanks to travel matthew and callaway golf and all that stuff so i mean ESPN makes it pretty clear like who we we sort of are you know have deals with like we all like we have a deal with the NBA we have to deal with the NFL hopefully we're valuable enough entity that we can still do journalism journalism and that we feel like people trust us to not be compromised but if if they don't then we're certainly subject to criticism for it just disclose it bringing everything in kind of full circle with what we've talked about today like with the way that organizations are conglomerate thing is that a word i guess now now i'm sure it's a movie was now it's literally impossible to not you you know be double dipping somewhere or you know and i'm sure there's there's probably conflicts of interest that we have that i've never even realized or thought of you know i've criticized something i've been like oh yeah that probably piss someone off but yeah it's literally it's an impossible game like it's just it's a tough tough market to basically my point like froggy SPN like you need money to pay for your salary and the talented people that bring the good content and all that stuff and it's it's it's a very circular thing and this is an incredible challenge that it's a very good question to just like what what is the future this because i think a lot of your criticism was based on again what we talked about earlier to is like the the empty engagement like trying to reach a number of people without worrying what the retention is or what the actual what you're actually giving that audience kirk all right this one's from anti faldo this is a longer question but i could not as soon as i read this i could not wait for you to get involved with this one all right so he says the question can or cannot be answered in the gary player voice take a look at the current gulf health regime fitness exercise taking care of one's body CBW CBS CBC oil everywhere preferably former black private jets bryson's dream machine secret german blood replacement the procedures teams consisting of golfer caddy physio coach trainer nutritionist now take a look at the nineteen seventies beer everywhere flying in coach god knows what johnny miller was up to so many dinner parties where people thought meeting jello belonged in dishes together a vegetable back then cigarettes upon cigarettes upon cigarettes what player from this era would suffer most if airdropped into that era and for the purpose of the question ignored differences in equipment and technology is available as a variable and also what player from that area would benefit the most if allowed to compete with the current understanding of you've sleep good cigarettes bad wow what a question the walrus was the first person i thought if you brought them forward like what maybe they would benefit benefit because like like stouter game man he he had great hands he was just a bear he was he was hot tempered bird like bad ass i think i remember we were watching that you're replayed at sweden's washing old masters and like just watching like how much game he had but like just what what low simmering enrage he had after every shot you gotta think that like maybe fewer cigarettes are red meat or you know maybe a sports psychologist might have helped statler kind of you know focuses game a little bit more and the going backwards has struggled with this one more because it's a hard thing to gauge i for some reason the i thought i had was like bubba because i even though like the equipment would be sort of different different like people would i not be as opened his weirdo nist and would be more like antagonistic toward sam and like eh but but that doesn't really work for the fitness is there anyone that popped into your head like from today that would be sort of you know going backwards yeah there's a huge would bryson yeah that would be just like the weirdest match of like all of all of the technicality and all the things he you know all things he gets super into weeds of to be just like oh yeah you guys are drinking before the round yeah i don't i don't know how to compete in this i don't know how to do this kat i imagined bryson talking about what special kind of like ash he was using it as wooden drivers opposed to like you know birch or whatever i got these special titanium screws that i got a hair as you really really you just catch wanted just goes forever well also think phil might be a struggle because of how many different things he's willing to try and how every time he thinks he's got something figured out oh yeah i just need to caffeine so i got a drink like eleven shots of espresso and my coffee imagine if he would have had that mentality with the ship was going around back then yeah now i know like i just need like three lines ago came before i play now instead of the number one the film makers and coffee routine is he's got the turkey baster out to he was talking here again the eleventh fairway augusta national we're we're we're not that far off from like some sort of like story about how phil has is planned to use cryogenics to like freezes head and like oh for sure comeback all it's gonna get real weird here the next decade anti-aging stuff phil as like like the weirdo elder statesman who comes out every year in his seventies unlike just fires off some takes about whatever is going to be amazing all right this is from hello friends friends he enjoyed the teddy bridgewater feature you recently published let me pose though said are or were there any potential golf also features in the past handful of years you would have liked to dive into in the non tiger division if given full clearance there's an obvious one okay no go ahead i think you're gonna say well i think a really great patrick great story really great rory story would have been fascinating i think i i like writing honestly about people who are lost who are struggling and so i think i tried i pitched him over twitter diem wants you never responded to it but a stephen boded story about how you so good at something and then all of a sudden a year later you like you absolutely cannot do it and you your life feels feels like it's falling apart and i think would be fascinating i mean i think you just you can learn a lot of interesting things about people when they just i feel like i i can't do it like everyone stood on a golf course and be like i just i don't know where the ball's going like i'm completely lost and so what's it like to be a professional who has had that is that the one you're going to know i thought you'd say anthony kim yeah well that's yeah that's that's a little obvious because it just we talked about that so much right but i also think he just doesn't want to be found by i think that's correct he's very much just a lot of people are holding out hope for him to come on on the pot and us to track them down and i'm not saying we've given up we're still trying and we'll continue trying but i just don't think he wants to be involved in golf anymore so this is from eric arbenz in relation to kind of what you just said has caveat kept up with lydia coast play after his feature from about eighteen months ago anything that he's seen her swing results i believe thinks he's closer to getting back to the top of the LPGA i have i always look for her whenever i turn on the j. over when i cert- dial up every dumb scoreboard scoreboard just kinda after i see the winters aren't stuff and see the players are insured ice scroll a nice girl when i scroll i see where she is kind of near the bottom she's been playing a lot better actually this year is like four top tens of think or whatever you call this year like the wraparound there really is no end the judy season i think that i thought she has a the new coach again and probably i would say it's a safe bet has new cat as coaches had about twenty cans in her time i think the last interview review i saw with her she was just talking about how she kind of lost confidence and ledbetter said something or know who a some out the hope kind of premise that story was like did david ledbetter essentially take like a scalpel to the mona lisa like trying to tweak or slang and sledders point was like she was never going to consistently be good long-term without you know doing a little bit of something different and he was trying to make her more athletic athletic in whatever but would the biggest problem with what happened is that she just kinda lost her touch and she was such a wonderful wedge player like like she just was such a great feel player and if you lose your feels sometimes they don't come back so you know i don't think he's ever going to get back back to where she was because there's just too much scar tissue and there's too many players who can hit on then there's wave after wave after wave of good young players coming still l. and so you know it's unrealistic thank pitch show ever be the number one player in the wurley anything which is a bummer 'cause she's really fun kind of personality but she always said that she was going to be done by the time she was thirty and so i think in some ways long ways away but i always felt like that i use that as the kind of lead to my story even though it had been written about i asked about it and she was it was just like i like it was clear like she didn't want a golf off-beat her whole life so lebanon sort of went was always that she's gonna come to a point at some point where she wants to be your own person get away from for family and i don't know a lot of kids people figure that out he wanted her to fight figured out shall we did is like you know what i'm going to be my own person and make like my own decisions and so you know michelle didn't really reach her potential until after she had done that and said you know what i'm twenty seven years old six years old i'm going to figure because this out now for myself and then finally wanna major so maybe that breakthrough is coming today at some point or maybe that's unfair to her family i don't know the one of the hardest things is that like her parents have never forgiven any kind of english language interview that i've ever seen or heard or i don't even know if they've given a a interviewing korean and so it's hard to know like what that relationships like other unlike rumors what here michelle was twenty four when she won their US open which was ten years like nine years interprofessional career which what's expected of some of these women last two will get you out of here this was going lengthy but people people here katie what the best friend the but this is from c. devlin on the refuge as someone who's covered both the NFL and PGA tour what are the biggest similarities and differences with dealing the biggest stars are the eagles that much different what about access in the way they handle an approach media in which athletes are more real and give more in which give more coachspeak and also is is one of the more more self unaware the tour of the NFL well so one of the things things about the NFL is that players essentially have to make themselves available to the media once a week at least and then an after games and if they don't if they skip out on that media sorta stuff and media and the NFL PA complains they can be fined for it it's something that's written into the collective bargain agreement i believe i haven't studied it but that's always been my understanding and so you can't necessarily surly like ever pull tom brady or aaron rodgers or peyton manning aside and say like hey can i ask you this question about the specific thing but sometimes if you have a relationship with those people you can like they you're innocent you're allowed into a space where they walk through the locker rooms and you could sort of grab them say like look i know you already talked on the podium which is what most quarterbacks do they don't sort of much drew brees talks in the locker may this oh it's maybe not one hundred percent of certainly but a lot of quarterbacks preferred to just i do their one availability week so compare that to golf like can you get tiger aside to ask him a question if you have a relationship with him like if you've covered the tour for a a long time if you're bob parador year steve the mcgeough or you're someone who he's seen around isn't going to feel like you know you're going to published something that's off the record that he says then you can ask him a question about something yeah and sometimes you can do that with phil and i would say golfers are probably a little bit more available billable in the sense that there are i don't know it it goes both ways ins his a hard thing to split so there's one hundred twenty five golfers right so like ah you're always going to be able to talk to someone because not all of them are going to be like nahimana i don't do media but now are the highest level of golfers like are they available they're kinda only only gonna do their press conferences really and then they're going to say well that's up sorry that's what i've already done for media whereas like the NFL is kind of more specific like here's here's the time when you're allowed allow talk and if you don't get them within the time then like you really not allowed to talk to them unless you call him on the phone individually and you have a relationship with them in the PR staff might get upset i don't know it's a hard i guess they're probably similar in some ways of super long and rambling answer the what really comes down to is like like if you build a trust with someone if ever relationship with them you can get them to sort of like i have written about guys who were in college when i covered them in college when i covered already in recent maryland who then i could go to ravens locker room and say like hey man can i talked about this number yeah just call me on my cell here's myself and so like certainly there's golfers who can help build relationships as well but if you walk up to someone totally cold me like hey i'm from ESPN that's not gonna really like do a lot for a lot of them there's like i i yeah i don't really care i don't know you that's what i was wondering with i've kind of always said without any real evidence like oh golfers are just way more relatable to normal normal people than like a defensive lineman is in the NFL i've always said that is that is that the case i would say most it's it depends ends on i think that's a matter of perspective because like most golfers come from some means right there even just to play golf you have to have enough money for someone to pay your AJ fees or you know to buy you clubs or to sort of like you know let you travel around the country whereas there's a lot of football football players who come from pretty rough areas of the country in so relatable to me as a white guy who's forty one might be different than relatable to a twenty three year old kid who came from liberty city in miami and so like it's a that's where it's the complicated question like are they relatable to what most of the media looks like you know maybe i mean i i've had four really good relationships with a lot of guys who it had really different backgrounds and we're super willing to talk to me because they've been through a lot shit grown up so they didn't think that the the NFL team should be able to control who doan don do and don't talk to you know the coach couldn't tell them i don't speak to the media because they were like screw them and like you ain't enough for me so i'm going to go ahead and talk to her i want my own judgment so i you know i think it's it's hard the easiest answer is a case by case basis we're gonna get you out of here on this one last one from j s on on the refuge what's your biggest field goods golf story of twenty nine thousand nine i mean it was definitely the time i shot seventy three no no it's it's hard to go against like tiger right i think it just resonates camp camp maybe just because i was really cool story and i was meant it's something generally in for you know kim's grandfather teases in the game scarf us dying wins but tiger i think resonates in so many ways i mean the sticky to keep thing on my twitter the is still like the string of tweets

kevin van valkenburgh mr kevin van valkenburgh kyle jason twenty million dollars seventy eight percent thirty thirty minutes four billion dollars two hundred yards two hundred yard fifteen percent billion dollar twenty percent sixteen years twelve months eight months five minutes fifty years five years four weeks
Reconceiving the Waterfront

Future of the American City

40:41 min | 3 d ago

Reconceiving the Waterfront

"I could point to parks all over the country. That are gorgeous beautifully designed. It should be perfect. And they're not. There's something that hangs up. And those are places where you will never meet a stranger. Golan on russia. Wilson junior centennial. Park is create. A place for the region comes together from the harvard graduate school of design. This is future of the american city conversations on how we live where we live. I'm charles here with mark wallace presidency. Oh the detroit riverfront conservancy mark joins us today to discuss His work on reconnecting detroit to its river mark. Welcome ex great to be here. Thanks so much for joining us. I know among the many projects that You in the conservancy have been engaged in over the course of the past several years. We are looking forward to ralph. C wilson par on detroit's western riverfront. This is a project That has been in the works for a couple of years. Now michael van valkenburgh associates with david. Aj and Attack among others. You're planning on breaking ground in twenty twenty one to have that. Yeah we're very excited. I wish to start moving towards in spring of next year so early. Twenty twenty one. We should start progress out. There and win can detroit residents expected. Have it opens for their for their benefit. It's about a two year construction projects and a big part of this will be in partnership with the va asked some of. It is a little bit dependent on timing of our friends at the federal government's obviously rebalancing the site and were leading significant amount of water. Come from rimirad to the site. So that's the complicated part of the project. As soon as we have done that hall. I can get quebec. But i'm guessing it's about twenty four months special projects we'll look forward to that It is as you mentioned A vast site twenty two acres and it is an example of i think The work that you've been dealing with the conservancy and other civic leaders in detroit to bring landscape architects to lead the kind of urban future of the of the city. This is a site that's both large but also quite prominent in the city's history. Is it a site. That's particularly complicated. A contaminated sure. It's going to a very interesting and complex history in some ways. It's very complicated site in some ways. It's incredibly simple. Amazon has very little largely flat it's almost a perfect rectangle and Historic use was heavily industrialized. Some of it is built on. Fill that used to be part of the river. The main constraint. With on the site is at train tunnel. That goes underneath it to canada at the connects at american side of the canadian side. So need to be sensitive to that Building on seis. We need to build around ventilation building aside from that. It's a site that doesn't have a tremendous amount of history in the working knowledge of the community. At previous to this transformation it was used as a the factory site. A printing press for the trip free breasts. And we've turned it into a very very simple open. Space largely grass in the railing. That waterside next transformations going to be very significant. Part of that there was a creek bed on known. As as creeks that connected from the courtown neighborhood down to the riverfront and pretty quickly people realize that you could fill in that greek cover the entire site with train tracks so as of the late eighteen hundreds it was almost ninety five percent covered with trae mines and railyard so interesting site. It's right at the intersection of courtown mexican tower to really fascinating neighborhoods in. Southwest detroit Mexican town obviously is nothing neighborhood that has tremendous number of working. Poor families and courtown is a place. That's really upcoming spray. Spot defines fancy food. But it's also got forty percent of detroiters living in poverty so both those areas benefit from increased density impaired to other parts of the city. And i think that density means we have a lot of families there and those families in particular in the senior citizens will benefit greatly from having this park backyard. It strikes among the benefits of this eastern western riverfront approach you and others have been championing that unlike perhaps and other cities in a context like detroit it does distribute this amenity. These parks and open spaces is to all all manner of populations. Different diverse populations different forms of community. So will the project. The berg scheme include the delighting of that creek. That's part of the project. So that's a project but it's going to be done on largely the same time schedule as many people know. Ford motor company recently purchased as she in central rail station. And if you're familiar with the history detroit or are lecture or frankly it's blade that's billing but you are familiar with. It was beautiful gorgeous structure sitting sort of outside of the downtown business district behind that that train tunnel Mentioned goes from the train station down to our site so with group. Jr is doing the designed for that project that we're hoping to make a greenway trail. There are similar to the winner. Cut on the east side that will allow the residents to have that sort of winner. Cut experience getting out of water. You mentioned mark the corner cut. That was among the first projects that signaled in in my estimation that Detroit with serious about going to rebuilding itself. This was now over a decade ago. Or more. If i remember right. Tell us about that project. And it's that project predates your leadership but the conservancy would obviously as a detroiter long-term you you've seen this project over some period of time it does and it prints by my work on the riverfront Certainly not my time here in detroit the going to cut a blue is open in two thousand nine and i know that it was open. Same year as the highline. So we were. There's leader shared the drake. Who were having similar thoughts about granting public space and providing equity benefits. come comfort the vestments. I knew the cut because a lot of friends arts community. Frankly they used to go down there to practice graffiti in practice termeer award. I remember a friend of mine. Bill brown is a filmmaker almost live there was like every day. He got on the cutting their little map of the different pieces that he saw down there. That space is a former train. Line that used to go from the northern suburbs grand trunk rail line all the way down to the riverfront. It literally turned a corner and went all the way to the renaissance center site. Today those tracks removes around that same time general motors to make their investments. The sent that equipment cut itself became significantly overgrown as i mentioned a lot of graffiti a lot of homeless population living there and not a lot but but some and over time decision came together to create a low grade pathway and it's really become one of the most beloved spaces in our community and it's amazing to see both the diversity of people that are coming down to the cut in also the way people are using it. A lot of people coming down for walks a lot of athletes come down for runs. Jogs we recently built at little fitness. Parks there some trainers coming down to train people outdoors particularly another have covid challenge of overcoming in our teams done a lot to do small interventions to encourage people to stay in the declared cut so recently put a bunch of tree stumps out there so the kids can play around and have something to do as traveling through the space. A couple of years ago we worked with the knightfoundation incresing foundation and others to build this site. We call it a cut free yard. He built out of a series of olds. Railcar train cars and that space was designed by students from lawrence technical university interest in michigan at high school students from southwest detroit. So the up the concept the only designed ridge we had was create a place that encourages people to stay on the guy that was at this. Beautiful spot has food and beverage and restrooms. Dj boots it's really become a good spot for people to gather at some point in time in new as a longtime detroit could tell me more precisely at some point. The media narrative shifted about detroit at some point. I don't know if it's in the last decade or two at some point in the twentieth century detroit is back and given the market been in development and management in the built environment in detroit for most of your career. I just like to ask you what. What is your been your experience of that shift of narrative. Both how it's happened on the ground but also how it's been communicated elsewhere. That's a great question. I thought you were going to say. When did detroit become sexy. That's what i was looking for that ducted. It's a good question i haven't thought about. I moved to detroit in nineteen ninety nine. I worked as a high school teacher for three years. So am i Initial naturally the city was very big space. It's very isolated space through the eyes of my students and parents i. I realized very quickly that most of them are cut off from the opportunities are provided in mainstream. America both geographically in terms of transit in terms of access to cultural opportunities access to recreational opportunities. There places where it was very loudly and very spread out. And i think that like density which goes back to the fact that were built in automotive context has been the challenge that our community has been struggling with for decades. I'd like to say that. The transformation public spaces in detroit has had an impact on the way or perceived. But i think frankly probably has more to do with our resilience are grids the innovation that comes out of detroit the arts and culture that come out of detroit i think there's obviously bennett. Desire by the millennial generation to do two things one is live in urban environments. Were close to people have access to friends new culture opportunities down new food and beverage. Now these are really high priorities in the second thing that this generation is really focused on is making a difference and having memorable experiences and i think that try checks every single one of those boxes for longtime to challenge was we did not have a place where you could work as sort of a be. Plus student from michigan state university looking for your first job at it was a great spot if he had a masters degree is a great spot. Pretty good spot if you needed sort of low skilled word base but it was not a great place for people to come. Were starting early in their career. Quicken loans dan. Gilbert investments have changed all of that and think that he his success in businesses also attracted interest from other business leaders. He has an almost fulltime staff. That welcomes people town. Takes them on tours of somebody wants to know about the trade. His famous answer is going to tell you about it. You'd have to see it and a lot of wisdom in that. When i tried to tell the story of the river france. It's one thing to show pictures of people in crowds. It's another thing to take people down and you know just hannam stand there and see people walking by you. Get much different sensitive. There's also a sense in which people love to watch a car crash and people love to watch an underdog story. yeah i'd say nationally. Some people are hoping there's another car crashing trae Large city in some people are rooting for the underdog. You know we're we're route to some people and reckless indycar driver to others. But in either case this fascination with detroit goes back to henry ford and goes back to music. Recently goes eminem. You know there's a lot out there. I'm interested mark in your decision now. It's now six years ago right to join as a leader of the refund. Conservancy in detroit. Tell us about that choice. Obviously that was both a personal choice few but it was contributing to what was at that point. Presumably already evident in the leadership conservancy the role that it takes in reshaping the city but what was at stake in that choice for you personally. The determined refer conservancy as always had a really special place in my heart. I came out of grad school university of michigan in two thousand two thousand three. I don't want to lie about that. came out of grad school with a massive ballard policy. You busy it's okay. Yeah it was a while ago. And i had intended to go education policy. Might my interest was working with students. I couldn't find a good position in that world. And i had some things to my graduate work. I had taken some real estate finance courses. And i really enjoyed playing with numbers. It really enjoyed thinking about how to run a project to get Take something from one. St and transform it into another state. They're in some ways real estate. Transformation and the transformation see in education of young adults kids. Those does some through lines their interest my career but it worked in real estate for ten years and one of my first assignments was working as the assistant project manager on the east. Were front phase two which was at thirty two million dollar projects that included a carousel and In a bunch of little plazas in pathways connecting them. So a new. The riverfront and i really bought into the vision of that as important place for our community as real estate person. I was always interested in atlanta's adjacent to a totally different story because that there has been some development but nowhere near what we expect started this word in when i came back when the position opened my previous job in a million square foot office building in chicago which is done and the a fourteen acre waterfront site in toronto which is under construction today. Still i was interested in what the river had become. And it was clear to me. That sense of ownership of the community members here in detroit was just through the roof. My guests at that time was that few people would be able to tell you that the property was managed or bill by the detroit conservancy but almost everyone in tablet say. I love the riverfront. It's a special place. It's one of the best places in the city. I feel welcome at the french. The riverfront belongs to this community and from me that as a platform was incredibly intriguing idea that we build this place focused on the transformation said an organization that understood that the diversity of the people who come to the riverfront Experienced the riverfront was really paramount in terms of measuring our success. And i've really been pleased that have been able to build on that in terms of our community injuring processes. Our team has done an amazing job of programming in as a city becomes a little more affluent as they become more downtown jobs. And i think is new condos get built either reframe. This place has been just nailed so hard to the concept of welcoming and in diversity that if it ever starts to become a place where people don't feel welcome the community will rise up in in a very good way. Demand said that remain a very open very inviting asset. So that's the exciting part of the job. I want to ask you about the role that designers play in this work. So unlike perhaps in some of your other roles year now at the helm of an organization that has played really central role in q rating. Some of the world's leading designers in particular a couple of the world's most Significant practicing landscape architects You know I we now regularly teach at the gst you know The detroit riverfront as one of our key case studies in a in a city. That's using landscape architects to reimagine urban future. And in that regard. I think clearly you had a both a hand in that but also a point of view on that. So what does it mean for detroit to have disproportionately brought some of the world's leading landscape architects to town to reconsider its waterfront. I'd i'd probably go back to my work with. What's hines and the ten years i spent working real estate. And jerry hines was amazing for a number of reasons but one is in love's good architecture Into is he loves efficiency. The spaces and that combination really made that organization currently valuable as an investment vehicle but also This sorta demonstrated the world that you could do well and do good at the same time. And i've been blessed. The first part of riverfront was designed by smith group. And one of our luminaries here in detroit and i think speaker of did an amazing job of creating place that immediately felt like somebody cared about it. Immediately filed in a sense of permanence open design had some elements that responded in thinks or triggered emotions or feelings or memories in the minds of was really incredibly successful. We have a incredibly very strong bulky system. We have a lot of color. John kreese things. It just sort of indicate that this will be here for a long time when you're transforming space. That has been applauded. It's been dangerous. It's been followed trucks and traffic and an overgrown with weeds in rogan glass. That you need to send a key message like that. So i'd say my predecessors for nelson matt cullen and others who really lead this project early on were really smart and investing in the space in making a little more stable more established a little better designs than perhaps people expected was really important thing when it came to the opportunity to transform. C wilson junior centennial park. We knew that we wanted to build on a couple of elements in a couple of assets have is organization and one is. We wanted to build on the legacy of community engagement so before we started out his on competition before we talked about van. Valkenburgh to anybody. We took a group of twenty community advisers on field trips to philadelphia new york and chicago to see some of the best parks that have been built in the past decade and the twentieth advisors were intentionally in there were not city council members. They were not the self appointed community liaisons or representative. You see at every community really tried to find people who had strong friendship networks in their communities people are perhaps not the usual suspects in terms of writing but because frankly we knew that the person who loves bikes is gonna come our community meetings to tell us that we need to have places to park bikes in the have been part of bikes. That we didn't need to tell us that again and we knew the people who are always have cancer fishing. We're gonna come and tell us how important it is fishing. We wanted a little bit of a more balanced perspective. On what makes park special back in two thousand three when we started this work. My predecessors carrying perry fe nelson and others hosted over one hundred community meetings before we started designing easter. And i think those really important for a number of reasons one is the community had been promised so many things that had not been delivered that there's a real lack of trust in detroit and i'm guessing that's common to many urban areas where visions are big and the ability to execute is is limited so the fact that we came to the community. We listened to them. We it rated artisans we. Billy said we're going to build generally on the schedules that we said we wanted to build them on. I think that built a level of trust as a second thing that rebuilding. We wanted to make sure that we could build with the community that we could build. You know we have integrity in terms of designing what we said. We're going to and So that community advisory group was really important for us in part of the reason we took them on those field trips because most people in detroit are not spend a lot of time in philadelphia kicking. The tires on other people's parks said weren't aware of what's fairmont park. Conservancy is doing what grounds will had done the spruce street harbor other just a lot of things that weren't in their wheelhouse. So that allows us to really elevate our game in terms our aspiration in the feedbacks community. Nudity team really became the brief of the design competition which ended up angry. Success led to the van. Welcome brad's team. Coming together in that regard. You've mentioned van valkenburg and ajay team. Ralph c wilson park on the west side breaking ground next year including in twenty twenty three a couple of years from now of course on the east side eldeen pisces from paris. Michelle dean among again. Among the world's leading landscape architects how did immunity React to having you know offshore talent from paris in brooklyn. That was interesting. So michelle do in harder with esso out of chicago to do a framework plan for the east riverfront in that again. Surprise a lot of people in eastern front in detroit. If you haven't visited for folks who have is you have has a tremendous amount of vacant property and it's really hard if you are a planner or a designer to not see that vacant property immediately start to draw imaginary buildings on property that are controlled by long-term investors try not to say speculators but long-term investors. It's really hard to not go in that direction in what. So did after a couple of durations was instead of focusing on one major big idea or these imaginary properties builds buildings built on other people's property really said what can lock this place in as a special community asset in one of the reasons able to do. That is because morris cox suggest built incredible planning team so we knew that if any individual developer came forward with a bad idea maurice mayor dug in and others would smack on the head and say you gotta do better. This is special place this designing me special so we we had that is sort of backstop in that gave us tremendous flexibility and freedom to think about the public around so that was a really great project because the proposals in the east room framework were installed big lands on jefferson so that people can get down. Waterfront building winner cuts at like path on the east side which the city is built a lot of people to get to the waterfront. Take a that was going to be turned into a crappy apartment building. Burnett into roberson park. Which we've been calling out. What are beach instead of waiting for the developers on the uniroyal sites to make that final connection to isle which is our own stead arc. Get that connection built as soon as humanly possible on. Never forget sitting in a meeting with mayor doug in we said we were going to try to break ground on that in twenty eighteen. It looked at me and said why can't you do it right now. And it was great question. That really opened the door for us to be able to accelerate through that project but sheldon came and look to that site and that was a place where they released spent a lot of time at the design. And i'd say the community was more excited by system that we're proposing. We didn't really know that the designers were fancy important people and i think similarly with van valkenburgh in ads say detroit doesn't have a lot of starstruck moments and frankly may come from perspective or it may come from the fact that allow people are struggling with basic needs a lot of challenges that day to day life but if if michael offenburg had come in the propose some of the detroit doesn't like they would be they would not be shy at all about telling him outta like this who are you. Why are you telling me this tree. Why delaware this this doesn't make any sense and that's one of the delightful things about our community. I think it'd be ridiculous in new york boston. Affiliate places where people do starstruck. There might be more deferential but detroit is pretty unvarnished feedback and michael. David had come to play and they have come with. Great ideas and the community has really braced ideas. Are you concerned at all at this point. that the success of the riverfront will lead to the kind of speculation and gentrification that we see as a concern in so many other places or has the development on the private sector kept pace with your efforts in the public realm. It's interesting context on the riverfront because for two reasons one is when good designers come into new projects they often look at as you mentioned the history of the sites in history of the neighborhoods. And frankly it's an overused word but people are looking to fill authenticity and the best case you wanna take what makes that place field different in special amplify shine a light on it. You don't want to tear down your little corner store. That ray loves you. Don't want the flower shops at ever been going disappear. You want that old neon sign in downtown chicago to step up and bright then. It's interesting are design competition on. What became ralph. c wilson. Genius centennial park was the other respondents. Were incredible had twenty six respondents. That final four were walter hood of west eight gijon michael van valkenburgh and james corner field operation so we were just blown away by the quality of people who think about this That's a pretty great list. It is and we intentionally chosen because we wanted to get four different flavors. We wanted the community to be able to look at the different submissions to that competition and really bill to see different types of experiences there and we got that in several of those groups would hard at the history of the site and unfortunately because the riverfront had been on the eastern front had been emptied out when casino gaming conceived so some of the old music venues some the olds restaurants bars. Those are gone out of business because they were going to be transformed into casinos that ended up being in different locations on the west side yet. Nobody ever went to that site. The only people who have fond memories of it are people who worked for the newspaper. He's play softball a couple times a year. So twenty two acres with a one one single sixty thousand square foot building and a softball a couple times a year and a site that should be welcoming over a million people on annual basis. So there wasn't much to build on and similarly there wasn't much in terms of residential to be displaced so unlike places like new york philadelphia chicago where some of these public round projects are being implemented in place to have tremendous neighborhoods. Jason to them in detroit. I think the question is not. How do we avoid displacing people. It's really a more proactive question. Which is how do we make sure that the adjacent neighborhoods that do emerge around. The spaces are open and accessible. And that it don't become stagnant because they're just fall of trust fund kids or the just full of young employees at the renaissance center. We wanna make sure that residential that comes in here is every bit as exciting as the public probably created which is defined by that person strikes me in part the success that you're describing offers quite a contrast with previous eras of detroit's recuperation. I think you mentioned the renaissance center. Obviously it's brushed you've had some involvement with yourself or the the gaming industry and the notion of the destination kind of entertainment recreation through those building types setting aside the of the quality of of their design. They do tend to be very inward focused. You know i. I recall you know. The portman scheme for amazon center and the notion of will detroit is backed by virtue of this enormous urban gesture. Great rhetorical value in occupying an incredibly important site downtown waterfront but quite fortress-like right. I mean and the casinos similarly of course the new economy Replacing the old economy. But in this kind of inward-looking almost kind of island alike archipelago like Urban form had a tendency take quite a lot of street life off of the street to kind of re remove quite a lot of vibrancy from the sidewalk and the kind of as you say the kind of retail the kind of pubs bars restaurants and nightlife. That kind of thing tended to be absorbed internally. Is that a fair reading of that. History as i guess. We're talking about the eighties and nineties at this point. Yeah absolutely and frankly the three casinos we have in detroit right now. You can get to the pardon deck of everyone of those casinos without driving by existing detroit business which is amazing in some ways. It's great we're not drive a lot of people tasks congesting these neighborhoods been in other ways. Yet we're just literally shoveling people into parking decks straight into the buildings where they stay in general motors their investment riverfront needs to be celebrated in not just because they were a huge believer in and force behind. What's happened here matt cohen. Who is our founding. He's been involved in raising every penny that we have put into this project. Then israeli a visionary in terms of the system in terms of what it means for the community and the spaces impact can have but general motors in build this riverfront plaza and immediately cut off the most valuable. Their property donated that to a nonprofit organization. That was less than twelve months old. That's an incredible statements. I could name other corporate plazas around the country Angeles miami where it feels like a public space but if there is a future owner of that tower who wants to put a fence around it. There's nothing to stop them from doing that. General motors literally said. We're giving up control over this piece of the riverfront so that it will always belong to the public because there will always be nonprofit steward. Who is focused on keeping this open accessible as incredible as they did other things that build a fountain that had was initially intended to be a sculptural elements and little kids started coming on and playing it in instead of putting up a sign. That says kids don't plan to fountain. General motors literally transformed the entire plumbing systems so that it would be treated water so the kids can come down and play in it and be safe as become one of the best locations anywhere on the river so it's amazing to see corporate leadership like that in again i treat a lot of that to mccollum. Who was the driving force behind the purchase the rats center and the sem transformation which included taking down the wall in front of and opening up some back to the public water side of the public. It's an extraordinary story. And a remarkable investment both in the public realm but also in the in the institutional framework of the conservancy. I mean it's an auspicious beginning for as you said it oh not for profit scrappy not in startup not for profit. That's twelve months old. You know the the question of privately owned public spaces have been with us. For some time. Obviously and in the wake of occupy zuccotti park of course there of renewed In some ways perennial interest in this again. Detroit strikes me as just consistently providing these interesting alternative practices that there's something of the conditions both the civic leadership but also the the very different the very specific conditions of Both quality of life there but also the culture of the place that produces different outcomes. I mean very often. You know wonderful very often kind of perplexing but very different yacht absolutely specific compared to other other cities that we might find elsewhere. But i think in some ways detroit has opportunity to other communities. Don't if i went to any other major city in the united states trying to find twenty two acres upon which to build the michael project on the waterfront on a southern facing piece of waterfront. An international peace of waterfront. Right i would be paying tens of millions of dollars just to acquire the site I remember doing a tour. New york see with the highlight network. Which emma number in the tickets to a project in brooklyn and showed us a piece of property. They acquired one of their one of the parks in network and told us how much money that it spent require it and it just blew my mind. Yup in some ways. Detroit has the same cost burden in terms of how much it costs to build things. Were not going to have a cheap labor pool here. We have highly skilled labor and their pay accordingly but the basis to play in the ability to build systems. I think is different here in detroit. So an i say that acknowledging that if the conservancy event founded two years before two years later we might not have been successful. Mayor archer was involved in acquiring the property for the casinos. He was in supported the casinos. Banner that said the skin said the table for are some of the property to become part of the river walk system. America patrick was and one of his major promises was or front will not have casino gaming have significant amount of public space there so he started a blue ribbon. Commission was many that we hit just the right moment and again a lot of that comes down to matt. Cullen is ability to assemble civic leadership. Awesome of the funding that came together and also the corporate leadership too. So but you can go back to hazen pingree. In eighteen hundred zero people talked about to detroit being public space in some ways. We just kinda hit it moments and in other ways visionaries who shut up the right time because you look forward you've been in this in this role of the conservancy for six years now. Important work already done a lot of interesting work coming ahead. What are the challenges that you see in the work that you have. And what are the biggest obstacles that you're that you're facing going forward Glib answer is to say the biggest challenge is always money. But i don't think it's actually true. Detroit is an incredibly generous community interpreted philanthropy the number of people who have written us checks for hundred bucks or two hundred fifty bucks this year is this through the roof Biggest front. Because they need to gather homes and is becoming a place of sanctuary for our whole community and in terms of major contributions. If you go to other cities you'll be lucky. If the support of the knightfoundation in one or two other foundations at a lot of people in philadelphia and every time you go to public space invented night while impending night will tonight which is incredible and their alignment their ability to coordinate with city. Resources and leverage economies of scale is unbelievable. It's one of my favorite cities have been terrific out with approach basis but in detroit. We have ford. We have kreisky. we have kellogg. We have ralph. C wilson junior foundation. We have johnson. James knightfoundation chrysler. We have general motors we have. Dt energy we're just blessed with both organizational plants. Bishen individuals aspirations wrong. I'd say the biggest challenge is really ensuring that is basically we've created continue places to break down those barriers feeling. Welcome in a space happens because there's so many different things anyone which is probably almost invisible now with the sign is looks like how the space maintains the flow of the pathway through the park. Who else is there. Who's running this space. Who's wearing an official shirt now. Are you security officers in a vehicle or are on bicycles. And it's going to be important for us to make sure that as we open a very significant signature space like russell wilson part that we maintain a sense of welcome and imitate. Should i think sort of solid that introducing people the west side of the riverfront is also going to be a challenge because just like the eastern front back in two thousand three. The western front in twenty twenty two is not a place that gets a lot of natural traffic flow so what we learned on eastern front news. You need to invite people down. You need that icebreaker experience that first visit to be something that comes through the organization now the easiest tricks to make that happen arte to put us good food or some good music and people will find it but over time you need to make sure that that space continues to be activated in sort of that. The engine operates on its own once we get started. It's interesting that you focus on the that fundamental human question that you know we we all in some ways ask is is this place for me. Am i welcome here. Do i feel not only in the engagement and consultation processes that you could even predate your your tenure there but But down to the level of the detail of design and programming and who's president who's represented in the space. I think that. I mean mac and say we faced so many challenges so many challenging aspects of the history of segregation separation in oh Racial violence and institutions. That had been really instruments of separation and control and the notion of opening up public space and trying to learn. Well what are the cues that will make it available for people to feel a sense of belonging and welcome That's a beautiful beautiful aspiration Parks all over the country. That are gorgeous. Beautifully designed should be perfect. And they're not. There's something that hangs up. Assembly makes them. It feels more like you're in disneyworld than iran a beloved public space. And those are places where you will never meet a stranger. They'll never have a conversation with somebody. You've got a significantly different socio. Economic background from yours and your goal on rousey junior centennial park is obviously to create swiss racing efficient to the local population and a place for the region comes together on riverfront. Were a mason lead blast with a population based on intercept survey work that is about forty percent from the suburbs in about forty percent from detroit. Which makes it an incredibly unusual place in the context of our city. And i think currently unusual place in the context of the country. A twenty percent coming from far outside of our region. But if you look at the design of ralph wilson park. There are a lot of things doing that. Don't seem radical or that aggressive. Which really are when we build a playground. We intentionally inward signing with monster copenhagen so we'd have terrific designers he's iconic elements but we've intentionally designed so it feel like you're going to a theme park it's not designed to do the brown bear slide and then move onto the next thing we built it. It's been lot of time hanging out with bear and doing things around the bear. We've built it so that parents would have a line of sight to the children. The parents wouldn't have to helicopter around behind children so that kids can explore it. A means to be observed feel safe because their parents or guardians around there but not have the sort of hyper vigilant experience. Which i think is actually bad for childhood development in cognitive function. We're building a with sir. David j this incredible sports pavilion which will have some major basketball features in it which will send a message to any teenager in detroit that you're welcome here at ralph wilson. Bark most parks being designed in in the world. I'd say right now are not thinking primarily about being welcoming to teenagers particularly important entities. So is look simple things. But they're not the ability for detroiters to get their feet wet in the detroit river. It's a remarkable thing. There's something magical about that power connecting to natural resource like that. The number of detroiters. You know how to swim is appallingly low and this place where we swim programs so a lot of these things. Elliot's a place where he can splash around splashing play basketball. Yeah it's cooling for the kids but it's much more than that because the intention analogy that michael in our team have brought to the design and because the quality of the david brings to what he does so pretty excited about it and hopefully this becomes a place where people are attracted because of the quality space and when they get there those barriers on the social barriers that have plagued our country for generations. Start to break down. This could be a place where people start to make relationships and as an adult. Aren't that place raising do that. So array hopeful very hopeful for the future. Mike wallace exa very much. Thank you very much talking Been listening to future of the american city by the office serving the station at the harvard graduate school of design. This compensation was supported by the foundation. And the generous to the american cities won't overseas. Charlie rain that gst dot harvard dot edu.

detroit michael van valkenburgh harvard graduate school of des Wilson junior centennial general motors courtown mexican tower knightfoundation incresing fou lawrence technical university chicago hannam grad school university of mich mark wallace ralph jerry hines smith group
The Notorious McG: Conor McGregor Inside and Outside Ultimate Fighting

ESPN Daily

23:11 min | 1 year ago

The Notorious McG: Conor McGregor Inside and Outside Ultimate Fighting

"Even better than I was. Everyone says we missed the old Colorado. Two Thousand Sixteen. But I feel I'm better than that now feel mature after. I've experienced everything in this business. wrote that was notorious. MMA fighter Conor McGregor. Doing his best is to convince us all that. We'll see a return to in this Saturday's UFC main event against Donald cerrone but with three years of controversy troubling behavior. Even criminal allegations are McGregor's battles in the octagon overshadowed by the battles outside of it. It's Friday January seventeenth. I'm Dominic Foxworth filling in today for Meena kinds this is espn daily presented by indeed a new New Year new budgets. Every small business has unique needs when you partner with a Dell Small Business Technology advisor you get real time tailored advice. He'll even give you a free audit on your servers and storage devices to develop a custom solution to help improve your company's productivity plus right now upgrade to windows ten and get up to forty five I percents off select business computers with Intel core processors to speak with Adele adviser call eight seven seven by Dell. That's eight seven seven by Dell McGregor's back like I don't know are we excited about that are we trepidation like what's what's the failing that he's coming back to the octagon. I think that we're a little things. Kevin Van Valkenburgh is senior writer for Espn Connor is the biggest draw in the fight game. I think that the interest in this fight proves that but how you feel about him is dependent on how much you care about his behavior outside the ring which has ranged from mischievous viollis too serious to potentially criminal. And there's a lot of questions I think morally about this fight and just how much connor his is doing it simply to kind of change the narrative surrounding him so in the lead up to this big fight you made a trip to Dublin Ireland connors hometown. Or you're trying to find out. I think we what we most wanted to understand. is where is connor now in his life in his career and not only like where he was. What was going on with these allegations at impoverished against him but how people felt about him? Connor was such a comic figure in Ireland during his rise that we couldn't help but wonder like. Is that still true. What kind of neighborhood did he grow up in? His family has always been sort of a mixture of some dispute. He's from the suburb of Crumlin. which probably thirty forty years ago was a pretty rough part of Dublin? Certainly an area where crime and organized crime were rampant. And now if you kind of ask people about Crumlin the view it more as a hipster kind of up and coming placed connor certainly was someone who was around part of the criminal element of Crumlin. But I think Tis portray it as this war zone which he has sometimes done is an as a way to kind of elevate. His own credibility ability would be inaccurate but he was a working class. Skyler he was on government aid right up until his first big break and fighting correct connor took an apprenticeship to be a plumber and he hated it and he told his father. It's either fighting or nothing. And so he was earning essentially like from government assistance. One hundred and eighty eight euros a week until he won his first. UFC fight which paid him sixty thousand euros and that was kind of his big break that he was like like all right. I finally don't have to be on government assistance anymore. I'm I'm actually GONNA do this for real like a lot of fighters connor was motivated by. What he he perceived as his poverty now are there a lot poorer people in the Dublin area than Connor? Yeah certainly did he grow up as like poor. Is Mike Tyson. Like no way but I mean I mean he's still became like a folk hero to the Irish people. Can you kind of explain how he earned that status. Boxing is a really important part of Irish culture. They really hang on the Olympic results like every four years as as if they're Olympic fighters and this is both men and women don't do well all their crushed even more so than soccer and so conor came up a little bit through that tradition. As it was part of the Kremlin boxing club and he was an average boxer. Doc Sir he wasn't particularly. I would say skilled but as fighting became more popular in Ireland in in Great Britain and in Europe Connor was more drawn to that and there really wasn't a way to make a living as a mixed martial arts fighter in Ireland before Connor. He made it possible like this dream was was real. He echoed working class and that made a lot of people really proud. That made a lot of Irish people. Feel like this is czar Avatar for the new century new era of Ireland. But on you said humble and Conor McGregor in the same sentence. Yeah it's it's hard to believe now. But in the beginning connor connor was seen as kind of this funny but more humble figure we talked to cyrus redder a UN McKenna. Who met him at a McDonald's rights after where he won his first big fight and garnered in car back then? He had sort of jogged to there and he was super. You know funny and polite and friendly and you know he's confident in his skills as is a fighter. But wasn't this kind of outward outlandish Steve Austin type character and what happened is things went on. Is that Connor. Learned find the best way for him to move up within the AFC and make a lot of money was to blend the lines between what was kind of a wwe style character. Sir Take this chance to apologize. When did the kind of hyping persona start to show itself so back in the early part of his career? He kind of started to understand that the best best way for him to promote himself was Denali use social media but to kind of get some of his early fans to sort of help them out into sort of encourage them to to talk. Walk up to talk him up. And you'll see President Dana white went to Dublin in two thousand and thirteen to basically get an award from Trinity College for something some of the people in UC. They kind of invited connor out to dinner and were like but I don't know if this guy can fight but if he can fight it all he is going to be an absolute superstar because has he has charisma out the balls and so we really kind of through his personality that he managed to get various kind of bigger and bigger bouts until he. He talked his way right. Up into getting a title fight was been the high point of his career. In the octagon when Conor McGregor fought Jose Aldo. I think there there were still a lot of doubts just about whether this guy was more mouth or more skills and Jose. Although there's this legendary figure within fighting and we came from this gracie tradition in Brazil. And everyone thought like okay. This guy is so lethal fighter. He is going to be able to just absolutely shut. This clown clown up and when they faced off. There was a huge amount of hype as a huge amount of pay per view. Buys the southbound the blackhawks champion Joe and they walked towards one another. They had all this animosity. All this trash talk leading up to fight and in Connor caught him with a nasty hook thirteen seconds into the fight and although dropped the cans it and it was just like. Oh my gosh this this guy talk the talk and walk the walk undisputed featherweight champion the world Conor McGregor again during the high times as he won around the world what was Kinda McGregor's relationship with his homeland Irish people by nature. And they'll tell you this so whether you believe it or not. But that they're you're sort of humble there about family there you know they were sort of told to be reserved and stuff. Connor was not that connor especially as he Scott. More famous was someone who was was very much about. I'm the king. A lot of people felt like maybe we should celebrate our successes. Maybe we should be more proud. You'd of who we are and maybe connor is the kind of Avatar of that part of us. Say he can kind of represent our head so things started to change. Though when Connor I started seeking a fire with the boxer floyd mayweather so he steps outside of his own sport in. He opens up a whole new door of controversy with the story behind this fight before they entered the three. One thing about that you can say about connors whether you kind of buy into whether it's one of the greatest fighters of all time. He certainly one of the greatest people at promoting fights lights and with that came. I think some really complicated morality. Connor understood that some of the appeal of of like rocky versus creed was that it was a black ivers as a white guy and connor knew that he wasn't deep down in the same boxing. Classes Floyd Mayweather and floyd mayweather new that so connor started really lean hard into this character and so in the promotion of this fight conor used I think a lot of pretty ugly language that for the first time people were like like I know this is all part of the game but this is kind of making me pretty uncomfortable and tell me boy. The he suggested that a lot of the media thinks I have a problem with black. People did not penny book you can see this having played out in the Irish media. There's a lot of people said it has gotten to be too ugly to ignore conor. McGregor doesn't get a pass on his racism simply because he's an incredible athlete because he's a great fighter because he's making taking a lot of money. I think what's a lot of people felt was that connor began to kind of lose him. In this character. You can only play a character for so long before that becomes who you really are so I guess in the lead up to that fight recognizing like fighting's history history with using race to sell. The fight was their constituency that was on connor side. I think that one thing. That's interesting and complicated about connor honor that he's always represented a sort of clash of cultures. There is a little bit of of nationalism involved in the sort of appeal of fighting like whether it was the mayweather fight whether it was Habib fight like people saw Connor as like this sort of representative of white identity the end of the West and then he lost the fight back stab. Yeah he did lead the fight mayweather and I think most people would tell you that one of lead may was his great skills sort of been selling fights and I think you can look at it from specter of a well. It went almost ten rounds like it was in in the tenth round that that Floyd scored a Tko took McGregor again. I would say he did not embarrass themselves L.. But I would almost bet you that most boxing afficionados would tell you that fight could have been over in three minutes and people would have been livid and felt like they got totally ripped ripped off so what flood was willing to do is just kind of let connor getting a little punches here and there and and basically pull off an incredible heights. I mean people are willing to pay. We're the suckers in the whole thing right not not floyd garner coming up with all the controversy surrounding rounding Conor McGregor How is responding at ESPN daily covering the greatest sports stories in history. We know what makes a Dream Team. And when you're hiring for your business you need the recruits that will become champions gins. That's why you need indeed for Your Business indeed will help you find the best playmakers for your business with tools like online skills tests that help candidates show. They're the perfect perfect tire for you. Post your next job at indeed dot com slash. ESPN daily and try skills tests for free. That's indeed dot com slash. ESPN in daily terms conditions. Exclusions apply Kevin. The racist. Comments are one thing but he also had a series of criminal allegations he did. And that's where I think things started to get even even uglier as it no longer. Was this character something that connor just said but it was sort of playing itself out in things that he was doing in the build up to the fight with Bieb Moraga made off Not only was connor sort of using really kind of you know awful allusions about Muslims about Cubs manager he kept referring to him as a terrorist came to the Barclays Center for instance of the lead up to one of the seas and picked up a Dali. The kind of thing that you use to say would move a refrigerator on wheels. And he threw it through the window of the bus where it'd be and his teammates were which caused a couple fighters to have to pull out of that you have CBS. They were injured by the class and dean white at the time said the most disgusting thing that has ever happened in the history of the company. But you could see some ways like apocryphal. Because they would later use those same images to promote the fight when it was time for Connor in the face one another record. He had an incident in his home. Country Turek right. He did so. If you ask most people in Ireland what was it that really began to change their opinion about connor. Would they would tell tell you. Is that when there was footage that came out. TMZ acquired of him punching an older man in a pub in Crumlin this video surfacing Thursday Thursday showing the UFC star coal cocking Amanda Bar in Dublin. Ireland April sixth. Just take a corner was came into the pub and with handing out glasses of his personal brand of whiskey and the guy didn't want drink it and he turned down Connor couple times and said no. I don't WanNA drink this whiskey and turn and just cracked him right in the face. That really made a a lot of people would be like. This guy is a jerk. This guy is really scummy. And we're not gonNA support him anymore. The New York Times reported on some. I'm even more heinous allegations. There was clear if you were in Ireland that Conor McGregor what was being investigated for something because they Irish papers kept alluding to the Irish superstar being investigated for sexual assault at at but the liable laws in Ireland are much different than they are in the US you cannot name accused or the accuser until there is a conviction not even just a charge and so there was always rumors that this was connor. who was the person being investigated by the police? But the Times got four sources to confirm independently that was connor who was in being investigated for sexual assault and six months after that. They confirm firm that he was another sexual assault was he was being investigated for. It's really presenting. I think a lot of darker allusions to ooh Connors Return. Where does this leave him in his reputation at home? I think a lot of people really we look at him more as a curiosity as a bit of a freak show they feel like he is returning to the ring to change the narrative surrounding him. I I would say ninety nine percent of the people that we talked to said. Connor is awful. He doesn't represent us. He's an embarrassment. We went there not expecting that. We've meant they're expecting people pulled to sort of still being as corner so if he's going to win those people back it's GonNa be a longer road. I think then he thinks I have to admit. When I was reading your article I enjoyed when you stumbled upon amateur rapper? Who released a Conor McGregor district? I mean that sometimes the magic of reporting reporting right. is you go into a barber shop. And you start asking people about Connor McGregor and we won guys like Oh by the way I have a McGregor track that I'd love to play for you. Let me send it to you. On WHATSAPP McGregor the homequote. He takes with the arrogance of money of a Wall Street banker in that pinstripe suit. WHO GETS USED TO BE CUE which disputes but then you lodge flavor quick juicy fruit? I thought that was like a good window into this isn't just like educated upper class professionals who are looking down conor McGregor and saying like this guy's awful. This is like they're scraping together money for the pay per views. They're they're following the fight game. They're just see the him is kind of a joke. And I think conor would deny that conner would sell you. That doesn't exist but I'll tell you it absolutely does in light of all this. The racist remarks criminal allegations. How has that you see in? Its President Dana. White handled the controversy in allegations around. McGregor I think the truth is is that conor makes the UFC a ton of money. Connor is a money printing machine and until he's no longer viable as a fighter. They're going to continue to use him in A. We asked Dana interview. How can you promote a fight with these allegations hanging over his head and Dina's response was hasn't been charged with anything? That's I made a lot of bad decisions over the last few years. Unbelievable amount of bad decisions. Are you gonNA stop a guy for making a living when he hasn't been charged so in terms of of the morality argument the UFC has always kind of taken a back seat to to how much money this person can make us and everything points to connor eventually having a rematch with Habib may even by the end of the year and there would be a huge amount of money that everyone could make from that and so that's ultimately the the God that everyone's going to serve until it it becomes untenable so let's talk about where things stand now. Look at this fight with throwing on Saturday due for McGregor's damage. Well they could just be this first step on the redemption to her. He talked a lot in our interview with Awani about how in such a horrendous camp and the training to face Habib that he was drinking all the time it wasn't wasn't training very hard almost two to intensive who series and and they're not working hard enough outside. You know what I mean. You've got to be focused outside 'cause the next day rolls around interviewer focus when you left. Then it's time to go back. You're not shopping. Not especially not as eager to be there. It wasn't where he was at a mentally he just couldn't couldn't focus even though it was really the biggest fight of his life in part because he'd made so much money and it didn't really matter it was kind of more about bride than it was about status and he couldn't someone someone that end what he said in this fight is he's got that hunger again he's willing to really sell out for fighting. I'm listening to myself and I followed my my internal instruction and it's just giving me more passionate focus more driving. I'm doing what I feel I need to do. And it's an appeals now that he's been humbled a little bit that he's earned realizes that people have begun to sort of be turned off by the character of Ghana McGuire. He's trying to get back to what he was fighter. And I think we'll see that that power power still the question I would ask. discounters still have that speed because the combination of the two was really lethal in the ring. And I don't know as you get started to get older. You might still have the strength but whether you can still combine it with speed is tale as old as athletic. The best case scenario is that connor will sort of return to that person person that he was. He was a very skilled very dedicated fighter. What I think would be more interesting in some ways if he did lose this fight where we've got him ago? Oh I imagine he would still try to fight again but who would be interested in have lost to kind of someone who is completely over the hill as a fighter and no one would really care about some of his his antics. So the character that is conor McGregor would kind of be debt. What happens if he wins the fight? What's next I think? Get it. They'll be at least probably one more fight after this. If he does win the fight who that would be with. I think he'll have to kind of hotter with various people and see. Everyone knows that he's focused on the rematch. With could be who is really the best fighter in the world. He's he's unmovable Russian N- force who is just not only strong but it completely emotionless in this kind of Drago type way and he handled connor so easily. The first fight that I think that if there was a rematch connor would enter as a huge underdog but that would just play more into this narrative that connor want says that it has to kind of prove himself and if he does win then all of a sudden he's the king of the world again appreciate shaded. Thanks for taking time with us. Thanks Buddy that's our story for today. I'm Dominic Foxworth. This has been E._S._P._N.. Daily me will be back on Monday.

connor connor Conor McGregor Times Connor McGregor UFC Ireland Dell McGregor Dublin floyd mayweather ESPN Crumlin Dominic Foxworth boxing Kevin Van Valkenburgh President Dana white Donald cerrone Colorado Dublin Ireland Dell
ESPN Daily's 2020 NFL Draft Preview

NFL Live

27:28 min | 11 months ago

ESPN Daily's 2020 NFL Draft Preview

"Hey It's field gates of NFL live in the fantasy focus football podcast with ESPN daily. You can wake up to the best story. You'll hear all day twenty minutes a day five days a week where you get an inside look at the most interesting stories at ESPN. As told by the top reporters and insiders on the planet the Breaking News of Sports Center with the deep dive. Storytelling a thirty for thirty. Today's episode was one. I thought our listeners would especially enjoy. Please listen and subscribe to Espn daily wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We start with the NFL draft which will be conducted remotely with team personnel working from their homes to projected top two picks. Lsu quarterback Joe Borough that guy and Ohio state defensive and chase young both expected to be a part of that telecast after weeks of rumors big boards mock after mock the NFL draft is finally upon us. The first round kicks off Thursday and we will be covering the big event all week beginning today with a preview from ESPN draft Guru Mel kiper junior which quarterback with dolphins tape which wide receiver will go. I will any team actually benefit from the move online. I mean it climbs. It's Monday the twentieth this. Espn daily Hey L. I know this is not at all a busy time of year for you so I figured I'd give you something to do. I'm excited. I talk about the draft a little bit more. Mellow you have been covering the draft for decades but this is different from any draft. You've ever covered. Has that made it harder in any way for you to project where these guys are going. No in fact. I think it's made it a little easier because the tape is so important. Meena teams are relying heavily on what they see not a workout or a pro day or things like that. Not over analysing players are watching tapeworm than they edit Ryan and more than they ever have and I think that's GonNa help these teams Maybe even do a better job than they ever thought they could with limited so so called limited information. So I don't think it's going to be a factor. I talked to teams. And they're not they're not fearful about this are ready to go and they think for them. It can be an advantage there. Only concern about trades that maybe there won't be as many because you'll have some of the communication with your people. Yeah right in the room that you would make it easier to see either gopher trade or or back off a trade. So that's the only thing was a little trepidation about was the trade possibility. Well let's just jump right into the draft. Your latest mock has of course jober going first overall chase young to Jeffrey Okuda at three. I don't think that's a huge surprise to anyone. You got the giants taking Isaiah Simmons which is interesting. Then the stutter. The Miami Dolphins who have been Hashtag tanking for for a year they take Justin herber. There's always a curve ball. It seems like that's believe me. This is what you hear not what I would necessarily do. But I'm not making that pick you keep hearing Justin. Herbert they're very high on you. Here in Cincinnati is very high on Herbert. That's I think led to people wondering will in fact they maybe think about Miami who loves borough. Maybe they they want those pictures. We can get Herbert at five. I'm talking about Cincinnati. Now we can make that deal if they did. That's the reason. I think it would be because the how high they are on Justin. Herbert we keep hearing. Miami is so if they can get him at five. They'll take them and in two ago six charger so it really just depends on how they feel about two as long term durability and really beyond that Nina. It's Herbert People WanNA say. Well he's he's he's being overdrafted he shouldn't be in the top ten. I talked. Nfl People. They don't agree with that. They didn't Herbert's big time. So this notion of Justin Herbert some guy that's being pushed up boards for ridiculous reasons we talked to the NFL. They laugh at that. They think. That's crazy talk. The bengals actually did that. I think that if they traded down and Got Herbert and gave the dolphins Joe Bro. I think the fan base would lose their minds. I don't think it's going to happen but if it did it would be for that reason. I really brought it up just to show. How much interest there isn't Herbert. I watched them at the at the combine. Everybody gravitated the Herbert. So you don't have to be this boisterous loud yellow and screamer to be a leader of a football team but I think. Nfl teams have believe he can do that and injured with durability concern. Would be the reason why. Herbert who does have asked a lot of low from the people I've talked to the NFL. The reason why he could go slightly just one pick ahead of two and I'll say this man if he doesn't go to the chargers to then where does he go. That opens up all kinds of possibilities. Well let's talk about too much. Has he been hurt by the current situation with the pandemic not being able to have team doctors look at him? I think a lot you talk to. They like to have that ability. They don't have that. Were for a player coming off a significant injury with the hip and they already had had you know injuries prior to that what I keep hearing from the people I speak to is. What's going to happen Kenny? Protect his body. Nick Sabin brought it up. You know he takes a lot of hits. Some pressure throws able to complete the Judy. Qena fifteen on the play. The first town watch Tunga below. Get up every single time. He doesn't seem to be able to recognize what's happening in the pocket because he puts his body in harm's way too often and he holds the ball. Eluded the holding. You GotTa get it out of you got to go back and fight another day. You got to get rid of the ball so again. There are times where he's gotTA BE SMARTER. We'll you learn that and once he's in the. Nfl can take hits when he had problems being fragile in college. I heard the fragile word learning. Do this if he doesn't look at the NFL Gaffey so again. I think that's the concern as long term short term and long term durability for a position I brought this up this week and there were people screaming that everybody gets hurt playing the NFL. Everybody can get hurt. Well not quarterbacks mean there's reasons for teams to be a little leery of two of that early when there's a big time prospect Herbert on the board at that point you have him with the very next picked being taken by the Los Angeles chargers who Currently they're starting quarterback is tyrod Taylor veteran. Bit of a Journeyman at this point. Anthony Lynn. His head coach has been enthusiastic about him. Do you think the plan would be to have to potentially redshirt behind tyrod? Y- we don't know what situation is going to be with the NFL this year When they're gonNA play even with that being said I would medically redshirt him. I would let the Body Heal I. It's great that he's coming back from the HIP. I Love San all these encouraging signs. Everybody does your route for a kid like this. We know. What kind of quarterback is when he's healthy to go to the chargers as he would energize at fan base. May Now you're competing against the rams. You can have Taylor there to be the as you say the bridge to two in year. Two people say was that so bad. The Patrick mahomes players are rookie. Amina you know this game better than they did. He play now. He played the final game at Alex. Smith was the quarterback so again patrimony injury issues but he didn't play as a rookie. I'm glad you brought up Patrick. Mahomes because you gave me a segue to the next quarterback Jordan love who I want to say I am not comparing him to Patrick mahomes. But he does have mahomes equality's the way throw the ball you've got him in. Nineteen to the raiders. Tell me why you saw. That fit the comparisons. The mahomes are exaggerated. I've done it before so. I'M NOT GONNA blame. Everybody does it. We all feel like a guy you exaggerated a bit and you go a little overboard and I always said with with Jordan love. I can see the arm talent like everybody else. I watched them two years ago. Love what I saw when he had all those receivers Darwin Thompson at running back and he was making plays. In completing thirty two touchdown passes and this year. You knew and what I do in August when you're looking at guys for next year and you look at it who they lost and what's coming back. You knew Josh Allen wasn't GonNa have great numbers that final year. He lost running back centre tight end. Receiver all went to the NFL. Sam Darnold wasn't GonNa have the same numbers. He lost his key player or a lot of his key players. You Knew Jor Jordan. Law was not gonNA put up the numbers at Utah. State losing four starters on the line and always receivers and his top running back so he didn't and he ends up throwing seventeen interceptions from the thirty. One can't take a sack here. You knew that he made bad throws he made bad decisions. A lot of it had to do with him just for some things but the arm town is real. I think he's a first round caliber quarterback. Some thought that I've spoken to second round I don't but in terms of Jordan love finding a spot a landing spot for him may not be anxious to hear what you think. I think the raiders at twelve or nineteen with a hunch with Jon. Gruden that maybe he'll look handpick a quarterback Roy for the first time ever. Yeah I mean he's got a lot of the qualities we know. Jon Gruden has liked in the past the athleticism the arm. We also know they're not entirely satisfied or confident. In Derek Carr being the long term future so given that they got a few picks it makes sense to me that they might roll the dice. But if you need a great quarterback to beat Mahomes then you maybe you roll the dice at Jordan. Love could be that guy if Derek ends up winning big would've you lost me. That's a win win. You still have Jordan love. Derek Carr wins big or Amari. Oto Gums and whatever and becomes tannehill. Whatever you win. You're happy but if you don't you see we can only get so far with this quarterback then you have Jordan lava. We know is kind of a developmental quarterback needs a year or two. Everybody says he's got to get to the right system. Like mom's got to Andy Reid right perfect. Wouldn't it be great for I to be with Gruden and then year two year three? If Derek doesn't get it done level John Watson to which is winning divisions in winning maybe get to a super bowl then Jordan. Love would be to maybe do it so one team. You do not have taken quarterback in the first round is the New England Patriots team that I think some people would put in the camp of organizations. That might be looking at these quarterbacks. Why didn't you give them one? It was hard. I DIDN'T WANNA move love down to twenty three. I DIDN'T WANNA GO WITH. Jalen hurts because I think it's even though I heard that and you can believe it or not. I heard they had a strong interest in. Jalen hurts Pittsburgh as well again. The Pittsburgh hurts in the second round but I. I thought it was a little rich for me. Twenty for Jalen hurts a little high so I didn't do that but they could. Maybe they trade out of twenty three and get into the early second and look at Jalen hurts if Jordan loves there. I'm sure they could look at him. I just don't see him being there. Twenty three so to answer your question. I just couldn't find the spot to put the quarterback that I didn't want to drop love that foreign I didn't want to push hurts up far after the break. Let's talk about this year's receiver class and how the draft will be unlike any. We've experienced before Mel. Everybody is obsessed with the wide receivers in this draft. What order they'll go in you know how many one thing that surprised me about your mock was not that you had Jerry Judy. Going nine hundred overall I think a lot of people expect him to be him or CD lamb to be the first. But then you had him going to Jacksonville. Tell me about that. I didn't know what to do with Jacksonville. May Not didn't kin law. I thought was a little hodge. Ivanka and law defensive tackle. Didn't really know what. Put an offensive tackle there. I didn't drop in Isaiah Simmons and WanNa do that so I went with a guy who could be like. I compare them to Marvin Harrison a year or two ago. Great route runner guy was Marvin. At the whole of all of the year he came out. I pick them for the whole Baltic the players at your main and he came into the locker room when I was in the locker room and I remember Hawaii. We're in Honolulu and he came in with the business like approach that Jane face on he was just ready to just practice in play hard and get after it. And that's the way Jerry Judy. As he's not flashy just a guy goes out and does his job. So I thought Carter Menchu if you're all going to be all in if everybody's all in on Gardner Menchu an android or did play well as a rookie. Then why not get him? A guy like judy to go along with what they have and they have some some very competent receivers. No question about that. But to get a guy like judy in with what they have would really strengthen that football team's ability to throw the football or. Hel Help Trevor Lords. Well is Gardner. Men's Shoe GonNa be not the guy that they think he is. We'll say this'll be a big year for Gardner and then of course Lawrence next year the first pick in the draft. You would hope with thanked him. I'm not gonNA say guaranteed like Andrew lucked but you would say pretty close to it. I mean that. He's the Andrew Luck of next year. Stra so mel you mentioned that teams art particularly worried but it is going to be very different everything about this. The logistics of it. How it's being run. The way in which these teams will be operating in place in their pigs. Can you explain to how it's going to work? Well this virtual draft the communication is going to be so key. There weren't about their Internet connections and hacking and all these different things that I know nothing about me all I know is if you have a landline use it. I'll have multiple landlines. Use them communicate via the telephone? I always am I. Frustrated with my daughter will always say I talked to somebody today and I said Oh good but I found that it wasn't I was texting. I don't consider texting talking You know I think it's GonNa be challenging but you've had months to get ready for this. They had the combine workout where you saw everybody there. They've had plenty of time wartime than ever to evaluate tape. I think everybody's going to be fine. How it will work? I don't think they know until it actually happens how it's going to work. I think they're a little. I guess fearful of technology breaking down and things like that with the Internet but Though at the end of the day I think they should all be fine. Well let me ask you now You know we've been talking about how the team will be effective. What about you? You are normally onset at the draft. Where are you going to be? How are you covering it for us? I'm sitting in the same chair right now. Doing this podcast with him to be sitting in the whole three days. And it's the same chair I sit in when I do my. Nfl Live segments sportscenter segments. Whatever it may base sportscenter specials whatever it is Through glow point with This chair with Dr Ian Bell Show. I do sitting in this chair. I do the podcast sitting in this chair. This is the same room same chubby looking camera. I won't have the ability to communicate through hand signals or I contact. I got something or I want to comment after you do or I wanted to jump in here. That'll be different now. We talked about how to a has been affected by everything that's been happening with a pandemic are there any other players notable players you think might see their draft. Status Change. Because this hasn't been business as usual. I think some of the combine guys who didn't run like a cameron dance lower corner from Mississippi state. Four six four nice to try to run a four or five four Which I think he probably could have. Now those are things where teams will evaluate how they play Chart Pinkney Vanderbilt. Never productive year. They had new coordinator. He didn't get the ball then. He ran slower-than-expected at the combine. Those are the types of things or guys at didn't run to combine. We're going to run it their pro day so you don't even have time one them. Okay Jay Hamblur you know. He's fast. He was going to run his pro day. Those things mean a May factor in just a little bit. They always say the eye in the sky. Never lies heard that back forty years ago. The eye in the sky never lies and that's looking at football players with the pads on on Game Day and if they play great and that's why we always have late round steals and undrafted free agents who matrix 'cause. They're the football players that people got down one because they didn't test well and guys who go earlier times the guys who tests well but didn't play great but should they oughta all come together once they're in the NFL at all when we coach them up. We'll get all that talent really prosper and it all come come front and center. Once they're with us. That's why those guys go early and as I said the overachievers productive guys all tests. Well get way push wade out. Don't worry about those that. Stop Watch as much worry about those computer numbers as much worry. About how guys play well along those lines in the teams who can find those undrafted gems and maybe lean more on the tape. What sort of teams do you think actually benefit from this? Well I think the teams that I think everybody to. Even the Bengals have a lot of coaches involved in their evaluations. With the time element being the way it was. I think a lot of things said well. They didn't want to push back because they felt like teams could catch up so the the the length the April twenty third minute gives everybody a chance no matter how you do it. If you're scouting heavy scout heavy or your coach heavy in terms of who really factors into your final decision making and all the teams are different. Some value the opinion of assistant coaches more than others and the personnel people. But I think the teams that you see that are picking at the end of the draft to look at look at all those teams if you see their perennial winners at the end. They're there for a reason and I was looking at this. Did you notice that there aren't any running back on those teams went? In the first round there is the go from the from the eighteen. One down he's a first round running backs for those teams now with actually drafted them mark. Ingram wasn't drafted by the Raven so again it wasn't a first L. The first round running backs up there in Trenton early. So again that's why we say why is only one running back on the go and maybe not until the end of the first round is for that reason. Why are most of the running back with different teams even todd Gurley now with Atlanta from just a few years ago? It's for that reason so again. That's why I've always said I wouldn't draft running back in round. One at the grade was equal to the back. Fine but this year may not Navy Andrea Swift out of Georgia maybe. Jk Dobbins Ohio. St Louis Riddick thanks. Jonathan Taylor from Wisconsin could be but I only think at the end of Thursday one running back. We'll be taken around one. Well one exception for a good team is my Seattle seahawks. Who as you remember? Took her shod penny in the first round in twentieth amount. I'll give you a spoiler for guy though that was that's true and I don't give you a spoiler for the seahawks. They're going to trade down directly they are trade out of the first round always always well. Let me ask you about your history. You Refer Baltimore which like to see do well. I would like to see them fix the inside linebacker position and they can with Kenneth Murray Oklahoma or Patrick Queen from Lsu. I would like to see them get an interior presence at center guard with Marshall Yonder retiring and Matt Score Injury and Macari did a nice job as an undrafted free agent signed for Eric Decosta. Kelly find those guys all the time they get undrafted but a little bit more of an interior presence there along the line another receiver. Miles Boykin needs to step up this year. Hollywood you know what you're getting there if you can stay healthy. He's a heck of a player but Miles Boykin Zeki think they'll draft the receiver draft another Young Defensive Lineman you've got delays Campbell and Derek Wolfe with Brandon Williams but you need a a younger guy. There and other set in the secondary set at tight. End Senate running back You know they're in good shape kicking game. Everything they are but linebacker is the key you thought about history with the seahawks trading out the ravens had a great history of drafting pass rushers late in the draft that Area Smith Pernell mcphee Matthew Japan so they will always take a chance late on somebody to slide through the cracks. That can get after the quarterback. Now I just have one last question for you amidst everything going on. It's not always easy for us to get our usual supplies grocery store. Have you been able to get your Pumpkin Pie for breakfast? Here's the story main. My Wife my beautiful wife Kim. Who Does everything for me? Everything she makes everything happen. She always wanted me to have a Pumpkin Pie. Cheap baked that I would actually never did refuse because I like the grocery store. Pumpkin pies the Safeway Pumpkin Politics. They are my favorite right. I don't need you to make me anything. I love this so if you make it. I'm not eating well. She has been making these Pumpkin Pie and they have been extraordinary. Best Pumpkin pies. I've ever had so idiot I've been. I've been married now. Thirty one years Meena and finally a meeting Kim Kuypers Pumpkin pies. Which are the best? You'll ever WANNA eat Kim. Ever truly the draft winter. Put Up with me for all these years. She Saint. Thanks so much mail bags made you take care coming up. What really separates to a ton of from the other quarterbacks in this year's draft and the NFL period so you just heard us talk about to a ton of Loa with Mel Kiper Junior. There's been a lot of attention on his health after his season ending hip injury but our Kevin Van Valkenburgh wrote a piece. That focused on another unique facet of his body. His left Handedness Kevin. How rare is it to be a lefty quarterback these days these days? It's almost unheard of. There hasn't been left handed quarterback. He's in a backup since twenty sixteen when Kelly Moore started a few games for the cowboys and then basically since that no left-hander has been able to catch on in the NFL which is kind of weird. It almost like defies statistical anomalies. So it's been very rare recently but there are plenty of famous left handed quarterbacks in NFL. History Steve Young Mark Brunell. What's been going on in recent years when I went to the combine this year. I asked pretty much every. Gm and coach. I could find ended up getting like twenty-five of different teams and what they all kind of said is. We don't really know the answer. A lot of speculate that maybe baseball is stealing a lot of them. But it's really hard to find like concrete examples of someone who was like a good high school left handed quarterback and then completely decided you know what I'm going to go into baseball because I can be a middle reliever I can have a longer. Career could be starter like Clayton. Kershaw make big money so I think what people starting to wonder is maybe are left. He's getting phase out even before they begin a chance to play quarterback as like a you know a teenager. Why might that be like what is so unusual about throwing with Levin? I think what's probably the most likely certain things? That football coaches are so in love with details in routine and sort of sticking with what they know that they simply don't WanNa flip all their formation suit every single time you drop back you have to protect the quarterback's blindside in if you're completely having to flip that With every single. Play in thinking like okay where might the blitz come where the pressure come from where the quarterback can't see it that might make you have to rethink a lot of different kind of favourite plays and it just coaches are so kind of militaristic in specific about the stuff that they like the even little subtle flips? They might decide. I just don't WanNa do that. I'm not going to bother coaching. Lefty one of the craziest person. Your story book with Steve Young. Who said that? His Dad actually tried to train the left hand out him by tying his left hand behind his back didn't do that to to as he always been a lefty people tried to convert him to right handedness. Your what's interesting about too? Is that his dad actually to his naturally a right handed player and he does pretty much everything else he plays golf. Right energy shoots a basketball right. Hannity Eats Right handed but his dad decided for whatever reason that he wanted him to be a lefty and so he just forced him over and over and over again to throw lefty. So it's kind of the opposite of what young went through right where his dad tried to make him. A righty just because being left handed back then. There was this stigma attached to it and to was the opposite at so when I told Steve Young that he was almost kind of like flabbergasted he couldn't believe it because he said you know there's so much kinda like great touch into his lefty throwing ability that I just don't believe it. I have to have to convince that. There's some left handedness in his DNA. Is there any chance at all that? This impacts is draft stock. Or maybe how coaches look at him. No coach will admit it and I think that what most of them sort of feel like is. Hey like if you bring me a great left-hander I'm happy to coach him. And so I think that well maybe back. In the day some coaches would have decided like tiebreaker. There's a fifth round kid. And there's two quarterbacks kind of looking at let's go with the righty instead of going with the lefty Decreases some of the variables. Here with someone is good as to. I think they're just going to say you know what there's plenty of evidence that left handedness Can Work in the NFL. Whether it's our Brunell or Michael. Vick core Steve Young or even back to Kenny Stabler. You also mentioned your piece that while left. Handedness is increasingly rare in football. Six of the past twelve presidents have been left-handed Kevin. Explain this to me. It's crazy is crazy. It's one of the more interesting presidential trivia questions right like it's something that some left handed people feel like. Maybe there's something about being left handed that makes you sort of more creative creative or more analytical or something that makes me kind of. I kind of wonder that maybe of the things that make you left handed them naturally make you less interested in football. That's kind of one of the more unknowable things but certainly something that even young when I pose that question to him was like you know. Maybe that's true. Maybe football's driving away. Some of our most creative people Kevin. Are you left handed? I'm not me neither? I guess we're just not creative for special. But we could be quarterbacks you could totally get some seven on sevens. Tear it up all right. Thanks so much buddy I mean at times and this has been ESPN daily. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

NFL football Justin Herbert ESPN Jor Jordan Guru Mel kiper chargers Jon Gruden Justin Steve Young Jerry Judy Mahomes Isaiah Simmons Lsu Kenny Stabler Kevin Van Valkenburgh Jonathan Taylor Miami Dolphins Derek bengals
The Great British Bake-Off | Series 11, Episode 7 | Evie James

Reality TV RHAP-ups: Reality TV Podcasts

1:28:04 hr | 4 months ago

The Great British Bake-Off | Series 11, Episode 7 | Evie James

"Ready set eight pay everybody. What's that welcome to the great british bake off podcast. I'm haley strong. I'm joined here by some sweet treats eighties eighties. Emily fox hello. Yes i am baby. And i'm proud to talk about that. I feel very confident in being an eighty s baby even if i was only five at the height of the eighties. But you know what here we are. You're living your best eighties life. that's right kurt clark. Hey there yeah. Definitely crowd of the eighties. I can relate more like the stranger things depiction of the eighties minus the monsters like the kids on bikes in the midwest versus the either the monsters from national. But definitely definitely some some flashback. And we're joined here today by a special guest real live britt even james. Hey what's up by calling really excited to be that. Uh separate you hard on the great british bake off at baking box. Yeah yeah you are. That's through the recap episode seven there. Yeah it's a complete complete tree to be here. I'm seri- cited china's especially about pizza. Say say yes. Thanks for having me i have. Yeah the british the british lab. Yeah this makes me feel a lot better about everything. Now that we finally have a british person on here. Yeah it's going to be. It's going to be great i have to say about eighteen. Okay good that was honestly one of my hot topics. So i'm really excited to really delve in. I think i missed an opportunities. Call you a full english breakfast. Do you wanna start over you. Actually last really really hard to tell us your experience at the great british bake off. Have you been watching it since day. One what is what is culture surrounding bake off in the uk. Tell everything well. It's kind of like it. Became like michiko at one point when when i channel full was a big deal people so i stopped watching it in the very beginning. I enough because i've never seen anything that you just fall in love contestants so much a mess so kind to each other. It's like it's like watching a feeling like what the hell you just feel. Good when you watch it. And it's you get inspired. So yeah what's it kind of the today until traveled full And then my allegiance was as much i go on. I can't do this. that's how i felt Yeah i was like oh some things have happened overseas. And i hear it's bad and mary berry's no longer with us and i have a problem with that so i totally hear you on that but i can only imagine the turmoil that actually transpired for you. Guys who were physically sort of like dealing with the channels and seeing it all unravel. Yeah i feel like it was probably created a bigger device and exit in this country. Sorry bread put like greg redskins because people were upset about mary berry. Leaving like fifty percent of people were upset about brexit. Exactly right so. I think we we we all love very very very much but yeah it's it's definitely transformed quiet law and it does feel interesting is channel. Four is very much more way more liberal anyway as tunnels tv channel. And and i'm really read. You love it now. So i kind of did drop off watching it and if met and also. I think i was just busy points. I was like i have to do this year. Not town and everything. they'll pay. They'd say. Yeah i jumped on and i liked it. I forgot how much joy it brings me. Watching people make amazing food and also some great to go on the to kick. Busts of people was not the shiniest happiest moment of the series. Got no answer. I still have nightmares. Yeah yeah even. What would you make your cake bus. Who would you make your cake bust into my cake. Maya this getting to know you moment. If i wanted to make an entire hate us i probably be someone quite sure the whole thing. Actually i probably picked someone like danny little. It'd be like he has such a character will face. i don't think he hasn't delicious eight. I just laughed so hard that my headphones flew off the back of my head so per one hundred thousand dollar patrons you got a real treat us now. I love that. That's so good. I like what like that. Guy from ninety day fiance's what's that guy's name dig ed their big ad say This is my best of big ed from ninety day. Fiance's prove you've never heard of ninety day fiance's while you're missing out so good so good so let's get into the opposite. It was eighties week. I'm so we weren't totally hear what we'd be seeing this week so we ended up seeing quiches in the signature challenge a donut in the technical challenge is cream cake in the showstopper finger. Donuts haley. let's didn't. I don't want recording of my voice saying those two things on the internet a half past the other weeks. I think this way more and even doing it. They're not check valve jam. Going in it was just all very creamy and emily. What's your favorite kind of quiche zero. I mean so. Could be fair when i was a kid. We used to go to our friends house and they would always have like little mini quiches. That they bought at costco that they can just reheat and warm up that. I think there was like a mushroom spinach quiche. And maybe like a cheese quiche or something like that and those were always passed around around the ladder of some sort. So i used to eat a couple of those before i had the gallery really kicking it. We're always tasty. Were short cross from what i could tell but they were all saw. I am seven years old. And i know exactly the difference between a showoff crust crowd. I mean basically a group but yet it other than that. I don't really have an affinity for each i. Guess it's a throwback. Because i remember it from childhood but that's the only context i really have for. It was going over to the house and having little baby quiches before there was a music party happened. Okay so they're irish fiddlers and my parents were really into. This is as my parents. Irish camp like fiddle camp and stuff and why saying it's alive and well in the states specifically centered in new england and my parents belong to like a couple different bands. The whole thing. Do you think i can go next time. Exactly up allie haley. They're dying to get me and josh to sign up for fiddle camp. And i'm like. I will not play the fiddle. I will like. He doesn't either. So i'm like what are we trying to pull off here and there like he can play the tin whistle. And i'm like guys like this is over but josh plays along where he's like. Oh that sounds like fun. I i would love to do that. And i'm like no he's lying he's just trying to screw with you so like anyway short. That's my only sort of understanding of quiche interaction with quiche other than being in an industrial kitchen and using excess eggs. That were used for baking or something where you know. You had a ton of jokes leftover pulling egg whites. That's kind of my understanding of it. Yeah looked fine. I don't know i was happy that did so well. That's kind of my take x. i we'll think quiches kind of freaked me out there. I i have a weird thing with eggs. Like i enjoy them. I like an over easy. Egg scrambled eggs freak me. Oh i guess when the when the white and yellow or mixed. That's when i i find it weird i i ll just like on list so this is just like almost omelette in christ whenever i eat quiche. I enjoy it. But i'm never like i go for quiche straight now. Yeah yeah some of these. Some of these quiches did sound good big in the uk. I think they are actually. But that i say that that the by by as buffet that will be two or three quiches however that also weighs the thing is the most left over at the no like that. They will be free. Courses lakisha guarantees. Yeah i not that we love quiche. We always have it that remnant from the eighties Yeah i guess. I kind of associate with the eighties. Maybe a little bit. Are we not my eighties. But terms of a little bit of a throwback. It's not like when you see who wants keys because you hear that all the time. It's not i think. A little part of my brain's like oh that's not necessarily like in the here now but i. I think it's gonna be to be like if there's some big in it like the bacon angry air signed me up. It's just like finished mushroom. Yeah it's it's been there. There are some interesting combinations today. That that or episode that i would have tried although i do have to mark. Why did you have to make to fish. quiches swish. If i was no good. I was surprised i was surprised with mark going with to fish quiches and then also peter also win with like two season quiches as much as i love crab me. I don't know if i wanted in eggs wrong it just it just doesn't make sense to me. I just how i like to enjoy. My crappy is a whenever. I go to red lobster and i got my crab legs like i did on the eve of my wedding my wedding on the literal my wedding crack it open with my hands. I don't use a cracker. just pull it out and enjoy. i don't even different. It's so good on its own. Yeah well this is. It tasted so son. Love crab is so subtle. I just think comfortable the egg now. It's not me. However i did the sound of his hogs called in cornish new one. That's nice that yeah cornish game. Assuming that's the biggest bluest bill on the show a cheese credit. Because he's said before. I was sure about the cod and cheese like efficiencies thing in shutter. I wasn't sure. I love bluejays. You do. I do i under report it. I would strive the the cotton cornish blue. I would be to the crab thing. It seems to me that a texture issue like the crowd texture and under the the keys custody texture. Just kind of intermingled when you get crabby like no you're eating crab and you'd feel like it would get lost in the keach on by we can't. We can't keep going without talking about the to breakfast. Quiches dave's now. Let's get rid of the word novel. I think we're done with it. That is enough for this year. Thank you very much. We've over used it. Let's strike it from the the entire situation. Okay i wonder i just wonder how hi. Dave had to be to think that putting scrambled eggs in an egg. Mixture for quiche was a great life joints right. What is the difference. Why are you doing that. It's you're just guaranteeing overcooked eggs in the middle of it. Yeah no one asked for this. What are you had been like. This reminds me of a trip where i really really hard on like mushrooms. Like sco mexico. Yeah exactly like middlesboro england and then you just have like this breakfast where you put eggs and more eggs like. That's just not. Yeah yeah. I think personally but to each their own dave. What about baked beans utilize before the podcasts. That you have a lot to say about baked beans. I'm interested to hear this so much. Okay here we get say eighteen. They are a staple richest state. We love them so much because you can have them at any time of the day. Whether that be a snot loved ron you. All like beans tastes is just a classic. I'm i am a websit. Hardy in some breakfast is not a thing. You guys When i was nathalie had a required stay statement and serve the full english thinking that you know it's like the worst the absolute worst like malta. And they were messy compete decrease out by the even apologized for them on thanking. I'm an american apologist at all the time travel. I know sorry the last time i went to the uk. Last some of the very first thing. I did a bucket landed at heathrow at eight. Am dropped my stuff out of the hotel. And i wouldn't be due to a restaurant and how to english. I love his head. And i've looked for a place in studio city. That will serve like you. It's like a british pub. La and they'll do like a full english and the only time i'll ever have beans for breakfast is if i'm specifically going for the full english so surprised if i'm being honest with you because i'd say about seventy five percent of breakfast restaurants here maybe i'm overseeing do have some form of enes on the menu and it's usually more of a maple baked bean but whenever i got generalized out channel two week. We're maybe maybe. I'm just looking at it in skewed view because whenever we go for breakfast and ethan sees beans on the menu. He has to get them. He loves baked beans so much so when we went to the uk. He was thrilled to try and english breakfast or full english breakfast anyway. I'm surprised that beans aren't more prevalent on breakfast. My knees in the united states of america. I don't know we always uk it's like either. We have like black beans. That are part of some sort of tex-mex mexican american staple or we like have like a catalina or something like that. That's like mixed into italian fare between those two things and then we have chickpeas. Everybody goes crazy for chickpeas. Let's make the last ten years of my life for like every party. I've ever been to but i think it's really interesting now that i'm thinking about it in terms of breakfast. Yeah it's it's totally over our heads. We don't even incorporate it in any real capacity. I will say. I loved seeing pru. React the way she did and not being a little like issue about it boas on well not just going to have to suck it up and eat it through. Hold right here. Mouth paul yet. We got we got a tweet from kelly van valkenburgh. Who says did paul. Just tell prove to be open minded about flavors when he cried like a baby about gherkins and requested they leave them off last week. I was livid. Like not only was. Well i i was like peru is saying i to be honest. I'm not a fan of baked. Beans could tell the way that i will try them. And be open minded. Paul had to paul splaine to her. What this is the. This is our job as judges to be open minded even with those foods that we don't like and immediately back to relish gates last week And requests special requests so hearing impro- can't make north ritchie. Nor does she want you may special requests but paul hollywood can Order off now. I was living. Yeah hey the ben message. He feels like he can say do what he wants. His poll is paul national treasure in the uk. Or is he just a man on tv. Who deals with because they want the other stuff. Yeah i think it's definitely the last thing he is not. I think he might want to be but when when we saw out. Oh i'd say about some people really have read on cnn. What i make them in a club sure he loved. That is the preface club. All hollywood versus. Tom clicky up from tom. Click you obviously like. He's like sweet to. Tom has a sweet side where i feel like polish. Just like all conference circumstance. Just go for this icy blue eye behind the counter. Just cooking you up something delicious and can't help you know this whole shows just a third trap man there was also a lot of and i don't know if it's like more in this challenge are the showstopper there was a lot of just lurking by by pollen crew. Did they use the same clip of hall throughout the entire episode of him. Just being like off the side looking around yeah hands in his pockets. Resell lobby backgrounds. Djelic like bombing of impro- paul this episode of the previous episode. What else we saw a lot more of this episode than we've ever seen peruse our crews arms getting blazer off baby too warm for this is like i m eighty five arm and i'm not doing this off comes the blazey blaze marine winston. One of the people in our podcast community was commenting about cruise necklace win. Those eighties risked the glory wristbands. That were like together. Banded together in a necklace. It's possible i love her style. And i know that because i actually have the same watch. He wasn't wearing it this week but in previous week she has worn the blocks watch Watch that got me my husband. So wow i wish it was joking pru crew you like every every week. She has this new beautiful watching these like crew. I'm trying to tell if the if the hosts and judges were in any way trying to dress appropriately for eighties week in with. No it's hard to tell and with matt it's hard to tell him to kinda maybe lean a little bit into it. Issince ehlers i feel like politics inspiration from jobs jeff. Probst wears like the blue button down every week as i can it to I think he matches is switch up coming in something really exciting top. What about if. I feel like i'd be very unsettled. You would no longer make out with him at the breakfast club. I don't think sir. Put our shirt this please establishment. Yeah now now that we have here. I need to ask you something. We discussed last week's episode. What is your take on map. Oh okay this is. I think he's very much in the phase of this is new buzzed and very excitable. And i think he's very sweet. I do find him very funny. I'm but i also have no. I think he said something. Maybe it was this episode of the previous episode. Where he was like the gimmick is going to wear off and i. I've not quite convinced out. Maybe he shot himself in the fits that by saying that now. Maybe i'm waiting for the moment. I'm just like being very unhelpful. And annoying now. I do love his relationship. With laura i think from this star they just got on really really well and i love watching people get on my thing in the world for people not true because i i was. I was talking about it last night. When i was watching the episode because spoiler alert laudi went home and all with a stated i love. There wasn't the their banter. So saddled my are falling. I not why you seen your facebook banned in honor of lonnie or did you just like the fact that her face was on the table and loris the freezer just like that. Yeah but the last season elena and all had this really beautiful little golf connection. And i really enjoyed that occur. I can't wait free to get to that season but got. Yeah we'll get we'll get a lot anyway think. This is the first episode for me. Were matt seems to stop being a character. And i actually felt like in some of those conversations with laura and some of his conversations when he knows it down with all impro- at the table and the other tents were there talking. He seemed to have his character dropped and he seemed more now. This is the first episode for me where he seemed the most natural. So maybe he's finally kind of even ask you hot hot looking there Yeah i felt really bad for everybody. Especially i mean we'll get to the show stopper but like what a rough you hours one friday. Nobody passed out all like the. I felt so bad i looked at mark and i was like is. That's what and then we see the shot and she's like i'm embarrassed to just be like yeah. This was films earlier this summer. is that Remember remember this time. Maybe was indeed incredibly hot in the uk. this time. it was so hot and actually time. When you're not in. Its hands trying to bake. It was lovely lockdown on the outside achieve. Felt just so different. 'cause we are not used to heat really. It's not really a thing where like england. The weather is always very humid. Whether it's wo- calls but this was just dry heats and we will all melting. So yeah i felt it was either in may think maybe august we had to random heat waves and yeah they were like weather warnings and we all just wandering around wearing crop. Tops and wearing hollywood's favorite sites air conditioning isn't a huge thing in the uk. No requirement it. Some guys has asked you will notice it. That's how you know. We have it. All on. Because i i will and this act in going on i'll be night. That's not me or stay air con. i like it. Sounds like it's part of like conair a really excellent nicholas cage film. That has everything to do with british baking. Nice to talk about this these little finger doughnut. I'd by one in the store absolutely. Am i income when you ordered it. What would you say ordering it though. I'd like that. Please okay so. We had a previous conversation about long. John but long johns and i thought that's where we're going with us but to me. This is more like the hotdog. Smell like subways sandwiches. Do i heard that. Ireland's that's such a high sugar on the brand of subway that ireland stated that it is now squeezed like eric. Sweeter dessert given the high sugar content and couldn't get. I've heard that. But i kind of see the long. John is the overland claire. And the thing you're done it because it's baked donut lake. I like the in your donut. But it is filled with a feeling like an claire. So that's what you have been diagram of math. Math smack nest egg. Say i stimulate. Quite loss is so is. I'd never heard of a finger doughnut. Before and i didn't know of that was because it was something in the eighties miss or something in the uk. I wasn't familiar with oregon been diagram. Is it an age thing. I just had no chance of ever like patrick. Is the term finger. Donuts look at a known quantity in the uk. I can now. You're listening out. There have never before had not oricon. I've only ever known as its. You might use to continue something ovalles. Chris went there. Because like i usually do. So it's nice to have a partner in crime on this. Okay exactly saying okay. So i'm assuming. I'm assuming it must have been something that was the i mean who knows everyone was on drugs. Say says that it was. Oh yes being. They're not. They were just a mole cauti- at a normal around Which i think he's just had deciding to use ridiculous class system on obsession with class in this country. Historically i think she's just using that as an excuse. I just think some absolutely not. And i'm gonna make binga dona and that was it. There was literally no historical record of this kind of quantity or ads before big lady was literally invented by proof for this for episode seven man. Hey i'm rob sister nino additive. You're not listening to news a f. Every week you're missing out on the week's most interesting and often most stupid news stories that are happening every single week with top pickle ball influence tyson apostle an amateur adventure danny bryson from the latest goop happenings to what's going on with the future galactic salt mines to the gps coordinates of the most current sex couch. It's all here on news af right danny and by stupid we mean stupidly important. That's right so cats are every single week. Live on tuesdays or subscribe to the podcast at news af dot news and we always appreciate your feedback and star ratings at news af dot news. See so guys. I warned you before we started. I have something to say this about even about peter feed cheer for him. I'm trying for a year rant. About here we remember. He was i was kind of a favorite piece is still really good. Let's not yeah. we're gonna call it fate spayed. He's excellent at what he's been doing. His showstoppers incredible. He seems to be really. You know efficient and proficient with making these finger donuts but what i cannot and will not tolerate is the age shaming of eighties babies. He's like oh. I guess this is how you slid open. I wasn't around. Then so i would know. I'm looking around at everybody else. Oh everybody's so much older than me. Oh i'm so young we get it. You're born in the year two thousand. Peter said that. I got up and like how dare you excuse me. How dare you. You're probably going to win. This entire thing. Have some respect and his brother older than him know her the mount that he talks about his brother. You think he would respect. Older people would you. Is there something to you being the youngest competitor on a specific season. Absolutely i think re probably like oh man. I can't believe like this this situation. And you know the the intensity and the competitiveness around all of that and he's really good and we've actually historically seen some of the younger contestants farewell much better than the other people that are involved. That are a little bit older. But there's a little too much snark there's a little too much smugness in what he says and i just will not tolerate it. I don't feel great about a peter. I'm watching you. And i do feel great about mark. I was really love. Mark this episode. I think now that gone mark is my number one. Pick to win him or her mean so. I'm sure there'll be a double elimination next week. We're both go laugh as you can kick off week after week after week. Nine josh josh watched last night and he was like i think. My two favorite people are allowed and laura at the beginning of that he was like. Oh god i'm jay. That's what happened. You let him watch. I know i need to start pushing them out of the tv room. Get out of here. This is my time so when you say mark is you're you're re want to winner you who you think will win or a mix of the two if he's who i want to win. I'm not really really have no idea who is going to win. I think they're crazy every single one of them which is nice. I feel like this show. Stopper challenge was a great equalizer and just was pretty messy in ways in one i just i. I wonder what that production is like where they see the temperature and they're like well. We can't switch the showstopper challenge for this week because they've already practiced it but like don't you think they should tried. Yeah it did seem kind of on that you know it was just like why eating what is like making that. Make ice cream in it. Just it just seemed so-so soleil that maybe baseball is pretty. This is going to be good television. People seeing things not quite outright this channel. four have reality shows yeti. do they do. Actually they have based stuff. And if anything's reality it's more mentally kind of style. I'd say right now. It's not like because because i was wondering when it in the when they switched from bbc which in my eyes bbc is kind of like a like a high class production. Like you're not gonna get lose like trashy reality kind of spin to it where i was ensure with channel four. It moving our exists. I think i think love island is e four. So i don't like. I wasn't sure if they're going to have that extra reality party into this kind of feel like they try and things. They made the switch. Some things are a little bit more dramatic or like match set up but like a you know it feels more reality tv. Yeah agree agree with us. They try trying to make more story lines and another reason flies because the happened quite series. Now obviously sending the loop one on channel hall. I just think it gets to a point with this kind of show why you have you have the recipe four shy if that makes sense so a exactly what why. It's quite active every week. Maybe they're gonna bring in more insolvency trying to change outfits any moments in drama. I didn't zooming in on a. It's all kind of exploring the relationships. That more i think is reason i think is to keep people watching you know. I did like the during the during the finger challenge like the fact that they had a deep fryer underneath the the the the blankets and the difference between that and the ice cream machine the ice cream maker from the showstopper. I kind of like the fact that there were some some new equipment got. I'm i do. Think that from a drama or expected. I like that in that. Sit down between the judges and the hosts out and matt or kind of like piling on policy. How you guys are mean to this policy. Him legitimately allergenic like we didn't now. I think that if production had had a way to change things that they likely would have when the structure of the show and the way that there's just no way no i know but couldn't walk unlike a different week or something like i dunno just like hey they wanna know just we say like last week a couple of weeks ago like ice cream kiwi. I think we jokingly said ice cream. Kurt they don't do ice cream thing every time. Kurt brings up a question that it's so fair so just like curious. Yeah and i'm like no kurt they don't and then they literally prove me wrong week after week. So at this point. I'm just gonna shut up kurt because you're probably predicting all of the future episodes from here on out to be fair. The ice cream cake had to have a bakes element in and this is going to be controversal. This is my this. Is my heat up there with my hatred of hannele. That's why i don't like ice cream kick together. I don't either to me. The is like there's a particular mois nece and i like a room temperature slash warm ice. Clay i thank you very much. Not he fought over it now. I need. I need to be able to consume ice cream funnel and a tube and siphon off my plate or just take dave's piping bang and despite the ice cream here but yeah i think i'm going to reproduce for the rest of it. I mean going. Back to the top chef. I i put my money behind the the land boring white guy. I think i guess. Dave is my horse in this one now. I was reading for lahti today. I will say. I personally do love cake and ice cream together because it gives me the opportunity to run of my favorite things which is eat ice cream with four that i feel like i don't get the opportunity to do vary by eating ice cream out of a ball with a fork. I might judge. You hardly silently button yet if you were if you had a slice of cake and ice cream and i wouldn't question that's a very good point. I would love eating ice cream with before. I don't know why. I just have a great time doing it. You saw this to me now. And i know i have some ice cream as it so i'm just going to go and try to to know. Yeah are still have that salty cardinal from jenas emily. I've not finished because i've been traveling last week. So i will refer healy for both emily and haley emily. I will finish the salty caramel ice cream. Okay he'll do what. I'll start yes. So here's my rub with an ice cream cake is usually i. Don't get it fresh. It has been sitting out for too long so it tends to like kind of get all sticky and melted together which is honestly what we saw for the entire competition because it was just too hot that i've always had the ones that are that seem kind of like cheaply put together like not like sort of like a gourmet one that was bought by bought a bakery or out parties is grew going to seem like going back to the candidate injecting a little bit kind of billions of the class structure. The challenges is like i again. Us i associate ice cream cakes with car. Val allergy is still get an ice cream cake for most of my birthdays. Is it a car. Val we don't have karvellas here. we're talking with. You just looked at me. Like oh my god. We never never actually. Is it. kindergartens ice cream cake berry. Horton's it's in dairy clean. Come on dairy queen. Yeah but it's not associated with a cruise adult house party. Yeah yeah but we weren't going to dinner parties in the eighties. I guess i guess not already with quiche. I'm so sad. I missed out on that by being born in ninety one. Yeah done an episode. That's kind of a little bit like a progressive menu or the the the Signature challenge is something. that's a little more appetizer. Now they're all very very separate azure ready. I'm going to say no. Kirti joe birdie episode next week series learn i will say i think mark had my favorite looking cake. I thought it was very eighty s. I thought it was very sharp looking about all the winds were clean. I thought he was very smart. And making a cake to like sir round the ice cream to at least hold it in the color scheme isn't like my thing but i think it's it with the theme mary well and i would have liked to it. I think Yeah he did such. You can feel it such. You could go from the very start. So he was so called straightway dogan. He he knew he was on to a winner. The great really good handing soon as well was just yes. Oh yes all week. I was like after the signature when her main did so. I was like star. Big action better get it. Yeah and then. She went technical. And i was like this is hers did on. I'm like give it to her. I was like if they don't give this to her me like it is truly a travesty. I didn't yeah. I was resolved song. That is such a lovely aspect of of what this season as the kids. Get to be there and the you was like crying and seeing him prouty was show. I was like cool. So i'm not gonna cry at the end of this and then go laminate some dough. For some khorasan's i loved her flavor combination. I think those are classic flavors to put together mango and coconut. She's smart with her flavors s. And she's doing exactly what we've been talking about. You should do. They is how something you know. Works like and then you lake and just doing it out of the baruch. Don't mess approve. Basically you're doing classic things but you're doing extraordinarily well and yeah. I think that that's just a great sort of mantra to go. Buy a miss. Because you're dealing with two judges who technically are classically trained and know these flavors textures spicy for paul. There's too much brink. Gun gerkin team and spices in beaming a white man. Take get over hall of fame on the kind i. It was one hundred percent of the chili shouli. The off just admit to it. Don't pretend it's just the as all. He's making excuses. You're getting his. He's always been a little bitch about spices like that's just how it is. Tom doesn't complain about fried okra. On top chef. Let you know that you took a risk. Giving him fried okra the best. I've ever had okay. So talk about appeal. Perfect christmas gang. That's so perfect. And everybody's like look at him over there putting like like do paul lean of a nice to get like that where i felt pretty good about how difficult it was to sort of like wrestle a slice out of that cake like i was like yeah that sounds about right. Let's give peter a little bit of crap. It looked beautiful on the outside and that is like perfection. I think he does a really good job when it comes to. You know technically putting things together and then the around it you know. It always looks really beautiful. Yeah it's exciting when you have someone technically so brilliant and also so such a perfectionist ferry rather anything out Let's not quite right choice. Probably why he looks so tired for as young as he is. Because actionist i will tell you it will drive you into ground but it does generate beautiful cakes and bakes so i will give him that he doesn't he doesn't over. He knows what he can handle. He doesn't pull any ruins from the season in terms of like shooting for the stars you know landing in the garden. He he just he knows what he's he's. He's really good at being able to gauge the time that he knows he has and what he can achieve especially because they get a chance to practice the signature in the show soccer. The he's i think we i. It'd be interesting to see his approach to practicing. Because i'm guessing that's where he kind of fine tunes what he wants to do. Based on the available time what. He knows he's able to achieve whereas rohan when he was still with us seem to be more well. I tried to seven times. But if time when i'm actually doing the show on but yeah we have to talk about. We can look like what i would do if i attempt this challenge. Yeah i felt like she knew it she just. She knew as she was. Probably one of the most self-aware contestants we've had where she was just putting it on your shit. I heard laura together being like least it's not as bad as mine and lawyers like melting off. I turn on the ice cream machine. That was tough. That was tough. I was really when we got down to it. I really didn't know who was going home body aura nor was at the bottom last week too. I thought it might be kind of her time to go throwing her under the bus trying to save lottie. Did you hear that. He was like lors been inconsistent. She's been the bottom along lately talking. The i know. I really really really really stumped as to who is going to especially because previous previous week lottie with style beta though i just kind of went while the last couple of weeks in autumn. Twice your guy. I would've really sad to see laura. She's just adorable I yeah. I was expecting guy so i was shocked at kinda devastated. 'cause lottie is great. I just love her love dan. i'm turning to recall. Do because i know it comes up on other kinds of talent based competition shows like top chef and project runway in terms of looking at that episode versus the track record root for bake off. Do they typically look or do they take it also you sometimes hear them. Say get an can't remember. They've done some big off. Like who do we see has the most potential moving forward this person's little but it's like i don't know i feel like it's it's i'd say ninety five percent base unlike what happened in that episode of star baker last week. And you royally aft- up this week like star. You're going home. But sometimes they will like you know if two people messed up like you know if a if a rowen was like in the same boat as somebody else they'd be like more only been doing too hot lately. Let's just cut it. Well we can i. I did like the part. Where like lodhi. And laura are commiserating. And then laura from the freezer like something. She's like. I don't want to open this and see what just happened. Likely it was an internet was like too drastic but well like the ice cream cake that word the outer shell is the ice. I just didn't see that going well and i. I don't know to what extent like we again. Not everything back to top shelf. But you'll see chefs. Hit it on the fly saying okay. This isn't gonna works on now. I'm going to do this. And i know that sounds like from when we chatted last week with tina that that the recipes in ahead of time so that they have ingredients and everything there but surely that's still allows you some level station. Yeah yeah but be. There is just because i believe these big government was like a be rice doing. Yeah the internal part of it. Yeah yeah yeah. It's i think it's a lot about just buried underneath layers of like melted ice cream. I think the the tough thing about this is what prusse said which is usually you contain this. Yeah you're not doing something where the ice cream is just like covering more ice cream. that's too difficult to pull off. Even probably under controlled circumstances led him last show or something. Yeah exactly. I just need to. I need to bring up again. How high was dave when he thought he should hype ice cream onto more ice cream. You think he was. Hi this entire episode in. That might have been what happened where he was like. I know what i'm gonna do. Yeah and even crew was like you're you're you're going to hype ice cream twenty eight to do that and and then it's gonna going to melt and he was like Ha so you pipe. The i didn't want it to look plain crew was just like it. Looks like crap. So why would you choose the ladder like crazy. I mean i'm not decision. But i think piping ice cream she'd be thing off building walls eddy's ice rules and zone. Yeah that's a pretty good rule of thumb unless you live in the arctic. Don't use ice cream as walls. yeah. I think there's reason you hear about gingerbread houses and ice cream and there's a way there's a world in which dave could have birdhouses to say you need royal icing but like that's the thing there's a world in which he could have employed any other technical skill of some kind of pastry cream or even just i don't know shut it out like anything. You shave chocolate over hype it with whipped cream. At least it has a better shot of like staying somewhat uniform rather than just going like rain over the top. Dari for the sound effects. Guys were it but yeah like why was ice cream the end all be all of this like you have ice cream on the interior. It's not like this was your only chance to let ice cream. Shine like because laura made with very different challenges. Laura made a where she made the little meringue. Bob was for the show. Stopper like that. Where it's like or even if you make a separate ice cream ball or topping but the pipe it makes something that's like really solid ice cream and have that if you need if you need ice cream as a topic just don't the ice cream. Figure some other way to incorporate screaming there but i was thinking that this is the first time we've seen dave stumble as much as he did in a single episode. He was bottom on the technical and it seemed like they liked lobbies english breakfast keys better than days. I feel like yeah. I agree i agree this the hell eglin i am. Yeah yeah yeah. I totally thought i was like. He's going home like he's nine. And then i watch all apart the showstopper and it was like no think it's got slavery i think if his slavers the bad then it would have been like s in he would have been out definitely. Yeah it actually. I think to remedy Terms ui that got another classic allow. That just went love it. You know your audience. Yeah judges favorites and just kind of awesome. Fine peter smart. He's like who loves booze. Why don't i put brandy in this. Yeah yeah. I thought we were going to have more errors on lines of freezing time between the booze with peter or the honey in the ice cream with mark but they seem to pull the there was just going to be laura lodhi based on strong. They were next to each other in the kitchen so they can commiserate like as neighbors. I think watching them watching get voted off though was very emotional moment and it made me so sad for laura who is like you know making real friends here. This is a this is such a loss for me. And i think having seen mark vote off voted off last week to really hammer that home at like. What a tight knit group. They all are especially under these circumstances. Yeah when they're together all of the time. Yup i wonder do. We know if there's staying on campus so to speak staying on. Even after know. I remembered the one season before they do come back for the all kind of came back for the final just sharing of the win. I'm wondering if they're sticking around the the area it's interesting. The bake off mobile. So i wonder if they're not just because the more is not the merrier in terms of quarantine it might not have made sense to hold onto everybody also it seems to consistently be a joke that one of them will say in a confessional. Where like how. I thought i was going to book my train home or i thought i was going to be like flying back and obviously that can be taken any which way but i wonder if they do just like dismiss people quickly like so that the the pod is smaller and smaller and that maybe maintains like more safety even though. I'm sure that they did pretty rigorous testing for everybody. And then going back to the rumors around max departure and that he was leaving to potentially give back to the family business. Like the kind of also underscores back. You'd probably isn't staying around somewhere. We might be sitting in the back rising. I think if they were still sticking around we might maybe see them more in the background. I don't know maybe wanna use them traditionally. They haven't traditionally they don't. I wonder if there will be a coming together at the finale like they usually do his. That tends to be a real congregation of people that just shows up. Yeah and like obviously it's actually safer than hanging out on the inside given everything that's going on but did the show you know pony up for that this time around. We don't know so yeah. Yeah that's true. I think they will try. And get back because i say say glass. Auty brits do that time. We don't know what other lies. Have you been telling us many. I love see i'm good. I think they will probably want to keep that in as much as possible. Especially because of everything all. I feel like they might keep friends and family that it would just be. That's who has the list with them. I mean i would. I've always wanted to gatecrash party because there's so many more people than you'd expect. I feel like it would be easy. Find a way you much on their different i think. Yeah i think if you showed up with a plate of cookies. I totally belong here. I'm baker to. I'm also british so if you could just let me in. I'll just set up my blanket right over here and be out of every exactly. I'll start up. My ten stake out. And i looked at next week. It's this week. Okay okay this is a witness on from from the one series. That i've seen is is is an episode that they had and it's one of those things where even that when i watched series five i was like we haven't been making desserts. Must've time hung literally. Two thirds of this episode was desserts last week. The technical was desert. Yea each week at least. Two thirds of the two thirds of the challenges desserts the next week. We'll have three thirds and it's very vague isn't it. it's like us. We'd like to use the ovens that you've got in front of yeah. We would like three elements of baked. Is one alright dave. I hope i hope he's doing okay. Returning things like once the the thing that they. I don't think they would actually make that. I have to ask emily. they make this what. What's a desert a swiss roll yet. They usually swiss role in some. I wouldn't mind seeing that. Because of the i think the very first or second episode i saw they had to make a swiss roll and that was when they were scoring when people were scoring the role thousand. Make it easier than my why. I wouldn't mind seeing a swiss roll challenge to be honest only because i i liked the idea of. I've seen them do this before. Now i get to see how this new batch of people tackles or challenge fruit pies you. Yeah yeah varies in there. Other they do a lot of blackberries the show. I'm happy always such mango okay. Mangoes are dig. This is especially how mango heavy season. Yeah yeah so i'm just. I'm truly thrilled for her. Mean i think she really earned this one night enrolling excited to see what she's gonna do in the future like i think i think she's picking up momentum at the right time learn. Mary are are doing okay here. This is it now time. You wanna really stop coming at you right. I think like is gonna be okay or is he going to be kind of luck at stake of child style. He's going to be a child star. I can sit out at the end in ten years. Time can ever moved out. Like i'd say the odds on choice to be next. Chopping block is probably laura gypsum based on past again. Doesn't mean it's gonna happen. It's been kind of a couple of mrs two weeks in a row between dave mark. Peter are mean like the early episodes. I was worried for bark and a little bit. Further me Bonaly between the. If laura goes next week between those or i don't know who they're all take all contenders not that lori isn't a contender for the for the final. Saying those are our final four. I don't know if there's a favorite amongst so to win. It does make much. So he's at this point. We got all they all very very very much. Say now might we have three. You know it's very place. Yeah we we've seen this week. It doesn't matter how well do the week. Four really focusing in on what you provide day on his full. Hollywood doesn't want to eat. Hey he's gonna be hungry and he's gonna kick you off play good grumbles. Totally true gerkin falls. Bros spin the evs or anything else. British you wanna tell us about any created those i watched. I watched only connect to fall asleep this morning. Great love up. Well i was gonna say like starting from the show from watching baseball the many years is there anything that you guys versus thing is you always. How do you like the double sided hand pie. We're one was savory in one side with it that actually whenever whenever listeners. At kemper boyd on twitter sent me a nice little package. I got it. This week of some british treats including like bakewell cake and some little mini battenberg. 's what else is in there a couple of jammie dodgers so. I was really excited. Yes there's like every like oh jeez treats they all great. Yeah love bug. Vacoas by may gorgeous keat little village ever. It's like up north. Everything is made of stone. It's gray calls but it's wonderful. It didn't realize it was a town. I just thought it was. You gotta cook the tar. You gotta bake the hurt while descriptive. I thought it was a tart that was there. Yeah yeah traffic as you said and you're like it's not from the town you can literally make up anything about all of this stuff like oh yeah of course. Oh one. one thing that came up during k. Streak when they are making the pass teas and mark was i think actually the the hosts brought up with mark he was gonna representing the past as kind of cornish. National dash questioned wake cornish. National de corners doesn't nationality and somebody twitter. So it's a thing close to the link to wikipedia that i didn't read and i've just got. Oh it is a thing because there's only about it is that is that something that you are able to you in terms of mall and cornish nationality even though it. Yeah yeah so. Call in south west england Absolutely studying each scene is is yes. Yes ebbing yeah. Such a gorgeous space away from the rest of england and they are very self sufficient in quite a few ways farm. Nine those shane luck. They have always seen themselves their country which is like sweet also. It's not a thing. Then they're not. they're in countries. They they really want to be so. It's texas yeah that's super possibly cornish it. When you're driving. Through homeboy attorney that i think that's cool in the nate and won't to that near light doing racy e book you drive through and people will have that national invested that national flights Hung up very proud. A racy eloped. Same dude fox. Because they have that kind of linked they have massive over being racist like the british racists and stuff like that whereas we are nothing about racism in the united states. So this word yet so sorry. They defies you really cool. This is just like saint george's like what the cross but it's a black background with a white house right really nice yet. Then they'll their nationality but they kind of off because really interesting. Yeah bossy a geographical as well. Because yeah i saw the dow. Listen taylor country. Yeah cornish passages great. Let's take a moment to chefs. All three of us seem the the photo of the sausage rolls in meat pies that i have from a couple of weeks ago and one of the things talking about these sausage rolls have no and the a cornish passed on the menu and i was like Meat is just until. Maybe i'll have to deal with this weekend. The actual official garnish As oh yeah day for it and that's how is yeah posses from cuomo just divine because everything is likely source. It's all say apps in what have you got is going to be amazing. It more often than not you go in this tiny lady that behind the counter. He's probably like ninety five years old and anything. Keeping her alive is the only thing keeping a lot of us allies these days. Yeah i'm gonna shirt. I think this past queen. Oh my god should we should. We have official podcast merch guys. I've never thought of like that's such a good idea. Let's can just have to major major hired as our designer hundred percents. Yep you're in movies. Is there anything else you guys would just like to say anyone listening visiting from the state. So maybe kinda we not. Everyone in britain has this on with dole. As i mean. When i have bought one day my life lasted bowl that yeah cheap. Goals that weight right. Yeah i looked it up. Yeah you have one of those washer dryer and one machines. Yeah i'm pretty enthused by those. I find them longer to dry though. Doesn't it take a while or do yeah interiors. Already from the wash cycle happened. The airbnb we rented in paris like five years ago. We were like this is going to be great. And then we're like we just need to sit here in this little bit and watch the turn for like an hour. Yeah some the lease the quality. Okay but none of that's because that's how boring is listen. We love enlarge appliance here. And this client even i. I was apartment hunting last week and there was looking at the kitchen. Like there's some. There's no microwave here. And there was an island and the microwave was kind of weird. Stoves are on the big off in terms of like under the counter. And i'm like that's inconvenient is literally. The buttons are five inches from the floor. I just don't. I just don't like the me like a dishwasher at that level makes makes sense not of microwave oven. I don't even have a microwave. I a lot of people who respect food and cooking. I also don't have a convenient place to put it But yeah we had a microwave in our last department and then we moved here. There just didn't seem to be like a natural spot for it without taking up a significant amount of counter space or having it just like out in the middle of the counter. So i just you know i've i've rift and made things work and typically don't tend to freeze a lot of things that require a lot of trying so i have to plan a little bit more and yet microwaves are an interesting beast. My parents still have the same one that they had from the eighties. Actually that would have been interesting. Challenge the only cooking implements. They have here microwave. We meet everyone. Make a cupcake mug all like those like seeing on tv like attachment things where it's like cooking egg for ten minutes and you're like new. I don't do that. No mike mike. Yes yeah. I've made layers of cases full of a. Yeah especially with like hinson stuff. They love it. They never looked as good as angel entrust. Oh god. i'm pinterest a come out useful. I mean they tasted great. But it just didn't a great and you can't trust baking tips from pinterest. You simply cannot no no. I had turned out that way and be. Like patient's like i already baking tonight. Covid in been valley editing in that. And i'm once just you just typing in every ingredient. I did on then putting risk see come out and i think i had like icing suga. Haiku piled up navy cornflower. Like it was a it was a bad time in my life. I was not very much so much on this recipe. I was like oh my god. This is going to be amazing. I'm gonna make cookies out. Three ingredients brand like i always say tasted lie signs a a actually. They looked remarkably like lots. He's just like a big melty cottage cheese. So i it would be ready funny. See pretend is really proud of presented to my partner at the time. You know the silver decorative civil i lace things on the mona play and that she will watching vacation time like series and like. I've made you my signature and came in and out brady radio-types vincent that. I was pretty proud of them. And bless you need eight an entire one. You really didn't have to do that. I think it was a real. Oh god as much as i hate you like wasting you call me a show. I would just say. Just shops sin recipe. Don't just in rammed him things in your covid google recipe and i'll send as well. Yeah he will end up with us. I think i think we've learned through both watching. Everybody baked on these series right and also from personal experience. ya can't really improvise with baking. The way you can with cooking right there yeah certain ratios that we want to use certain techniques that are really important and vital to creating textures flavors and yeah. I think there are a lot of shortcuts. That are great in some circumstances. But when you're working with like virtually no ingredients. It's very hard to replicate some of this stuff and i always think i'm very timid and hesitant to trust a lot of blog recipes in pinterest recipes. Because i've gotten burned one too many times on those. It's much easier to go to literally. Airframe figuratively very rarely literally. But i think there's something to be said for people who recipe tests and have legitimate publications out and you can go to that and know that it's going to be good for the most part versus like i don't know they're always these people that are like and then i made these like really great like kito bars and you're like oh no that's not going to be good. It's coconut oil and random fruits mixed in like it's it's only you can only do so much but i say more more often than not. Don't trust your pinterest and random recipes. That don't come from a trusted blogger. Who knows what they're talking about or a larger public agent. Yeah okay that's my. Psa bon apetit back publishing videos on the channel. They are so check. That out In like you say record. I was just like i discovered the right at the start of tough. That was really hard and yeah. So they're back. That's fine so every week we talk about what we've been making this week so let's start with you. What even making this week food aching. What you've been getting tako eating. I mean i'm not gonna lie company. Take ways because we just have a national lockdown. Yes including great say yeah. There's been a couple of incompetence takeout. I made a ray follows. Yana a is just so good. You caucus with abc's anyway just delicious and then making a cut of small or ghana souls yum like just chuck e. cheese bacon is great. So that's so hungry right now and i have a giant egg plant in the fridge that i might just have to walk. Of course you guys and we don't be barest. Aubergine sound so much more refined already. Picturing the emoji t-shirt for this one so we're good okay. It's just aubergine across the chest up and then later on this evening. Wow i say this evening. It is the evening where i have. I'm gonna make he their there. Yeah that'd be that's why not see eleven toppings. Are you leaning into your pizza call. We've got all it's not always great pizza right And then we're going to chuckling mushrooms on maybe some pineapple very light mining. Kurt wrote recoil. What happened on ono. No i linked by all right the combination. I usually do traditional with with ham and we actually alien. Josh today. Completes pizza episode early talking about curt. I got so too much pizza that we know. I'm just trying to think. Pineapple black mushrooms. I i i would try. It's not uncommon. I would've actually going for Trying to i'm very hungry myself. I'll try anything. Yeah we we. We went shopping. We did like a massive shop to try and any like once week. And i was like i'm going to get. We're gonna just wanna live in a mushroom and i feel like in my brain. It's going to be really good but it might be. It might be an egg egg and an ice cream of ice cream by actually work out. I think we'll see we'll see. Yeah so the teachers. So wolf. Who like i didn't leave off and then i cooked it and excited because it looks good because i've seen the cheese melted and going to bet like round yom great so just took out. The oven didn't even really look like a base or anything just started. Slicing honey was roll. It was oh yeah is that was not right. Come a long way since then. Yeah five day. what are you guys. It makes this week. I've been traveling all week. I was actually back in my home state of michigan. So i did pretty much nothing but take out. He's gonna exploring the different places around my hotel. There is aa. I discovered i gala gate a burrito from this place for discovery across the street. Was this restaurant call. I think it's i think it's a chain but i think it's like maybe like ten locations and i'm not sure if located in michigan called jubilo. Honey i'm like. Oh this is going to be southern food. And i got i was actually. I think that meal was all vegetarian. Got this really amazing salad. That had krispy brussels sprouts and cauliflower rice and some sonic i i don't. I rarely make salads a meal. Eating had like a really rich burger. Truffle burger the previous night. That was amazing and said. Let me just clean veggies. It was so good. I had a side of grits and go cheese. I was really good. Sorry about that. I think it was like there was a collard. Greens and bacon and mackin sheet later. The sides i was like i don't know what the pets i went with the the grits and go cheese and for dessert i had from there. I had the gun. This banana pudding. That was good but with the will burger. I had my. I have lova for dessert. I never had them before and it was. It was quite good. It was like a chocolate meringue crispy outside and like very obviously like lighted marshmallow on the inside just whip cream and berries so very much enjoyed that things that you wouldn't normally like no rewind thirty years. Is this stuff. He wouldn't normally have seen in west michigan but the food scene has definitely evolved there since i originally lived there. So it's i love ryan says they nights feel like ademir anything last week. I don't know what's going on half the time. I even made a bacon wrapped meatloaf at the beginning of the week. That was good and that i made parolees. I didn't make the parochial. But i just you know fried up bacon and fried onions in the bacon grease and then friday. The perot geeze in that afterwards. Those were delicious. take out this week we got. There's a little italian place in town. I got like a shrimp pasta with arosa sauces. Cossio is really shows. Love that emily. I mean we see your croissants in the bathroom. Yeah so for patrons who don't have video access. There are currently two trays croissants. That have been proofing throughout this entire podcast because you look larger than they did actually actually made them a little shake a few minutes ago if you guys stopped me do that to see if they can roll a little puffed enough from the east rising so they're ready to go actually just texted josh to preheat the oven. But yeah So that'll be a tasty little treat. But yeah i figured i would give those go again because i really want to be able to master it and excited about it last night. We made some thai food. I made some cowboy and delicious mushrooms salad that was spicy and irby delicious and otherwise. I think we roasted a huge chicken on election night and just put a ton of vegetables underneath so good goop from the chicken and you know just a really comforting warm meal to kind of offset all the anxiety and and craziness that's been happening and so we've been kind of working our way through that with all the leftover veg been really good so you know just and we had a pizza this week. Because why wouldn't you feel like it is pizza this week. Yeah i knocked out like three slices pretty quickly and did not feel an ounce of regret. It was delicious and really satisfying so. Thank him for no reason at all might get like a detroit style. Pizza phillies. she's taking some arizona ice tea this weekend for damn straight not an honor at anything tasty maybe maybe got a lottery ticket even so easy working people find you on the internet. If you want people to find the internet in completely knocked creepy way have i. I loved it friends at all debates to ground easy. Bethany james Law of hitches man. various animals -sarily my just any animal. i see. I like also a lot of me singing. If that's something you're interested in. Either as law silliness such a debate. Do want to say hi comes as the all right a emily. Emily like an omelet but with an e. on both instagram and twitter. Kurt s i am at kirk. Clark was to seize on twitter on instagram on twitch. Speaking of which. I i do also plug these presence on the sabotage the dm twitch stream. I met ev through. Mutual friends When i was invited to play in our dnd livestream with her and a wonderful group of folks over the uk. So if you also want to subscribe to that that's our sabotage the dm on twitch you guys stream on monday mornings a here on the evenings at your time law. Let's other than that. I think i have some pictures of recent foods on on the instagram. If i know. I have a picture of the though the under two dollars a gallon gas that i was able to get michigan which was like a nice change from but you can find me on. Instagram h. strong underscore have pictures of stuff. I eight recently but not this week. It just fit with the color scheme. I was going for. Of course you can check out my coverage of the bachelorette on the networks here. Probably where you're listening to this. Exact same podcast. So that's a that's a good time and Yeah you might as well watch the doctor. What else are you doing. that's right. what else are you doing emily. Did you watch this week. I didn't. I've been really i'll get into it now. I'm gonna do it. I promise you all do it. Okay this is a promise. I'm looking you in the eyes promise k. All right until next time you can pack up your stand mixers out by.

ninety day uk mary berry laura Emily fox kurt clark dave greg redskins brexit danny little one hundred thousand dollar Donuts haley allie haley paul Kurt two week Mouth paul kelly van valkenburgh paul splaine hollywood
The Notorious McG: Conor McGregor Inside and Outside Ultimate Fighting

Five Rounds with Brett Okamoto

23:47 min | 1 year ago

The Notorious McG: Conor McGregor Inside and Outside Ultimate Fighting

"Hates area who wanNA various Hawaii's May Show let me tell you about my good friends over at ESPN daily. has you know each and every morning you can wake up to the best story you will hear are all day courtesy of Espn daily twenty minutes. A day. Five days a week were you can get an inside look at the most interesting stories at ESPN as told by the top reporters and insiders on the planet the Breaking News of Sports Center with the deep dive storytelling of thirty for thirty. Today's episode is one. I thought our listeners would especially enjoy joy. Please listen and subscribe to Espn daily wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Even better than who I was. You know everyone says we missed the old contra the two thousand sixteen contract but feel better than that now amateur. I've experienced everything in this business. That was notorious enemy fighter conor McGregor doing his best to convince us. All that will see a return to form in this Saturday's as UFC main event against Donald cerrone but with three years of controversy troubling behavior even criminal allegations McGregor's battles in the octagon overshadowed by the battles outside of it. It's Friday January seventeenth. I'm Dominic Foxworth. I still today kinds. This is ESPN daily presented by indeed the New Year new budgets. Every small business has unique needs when you partner with the Dell Small Business Technology advisor you get real time tailored advice he'll even give you a free audit on your servers and storage devices to develop a custom solution to help improve improve your company's productivity plus right now upgrade to windows ten and get up to forty five percent off select business computers with Intel core processors to speak with Adele adviser call eight seven seven by Dell. That's eight seven. Seven by Dell conor McGregor is backed like got no are we excited about that we trepidation. It's it's like what's what's the failing that he's coming back to the octagon. I think that we're a little all things. Kevin Van Valkenburgh is a senior writer for. ESPN Kohner is is the biggest draw in the fight game I think that the interest in this fight proves that but how you feel about him is dependent on how how much you care about his behavior outside the ring which has ranged from mischievous too serious to potentially criminal. And there's a lot of of questions I think morally about this fight and just how much connor is doing it simply to kind of change the narrative surrounding him so in the lead up to this big invite you made a trip to Dublin Ireland connors hometown. Or are you trying to find out. I think we wanted to understand. is where is connor now in his life and in his career and not only like where he was what was going on with these allegations that published against him but how people felt about him. Connor was such a conic figure in Ireland during his rise that we couldn't help but wonder like. Is that still true. What kind of neighborhood did he grow up in? How's his family? We're from his always been sort of a mixture of some dispute. He's from the suburb of Crumlin. which probably thirty forty years ago was a pretty rough part of Dublin was certainly an area where crime in an organized crime were rampant? And now if you ask people about Crumlin the view it more as hipster kind of up and coming place. Connor certainly was someone who was around part of the criminal element of Crumlin. But I think tim portray it As this war zone which he has sometimes done is as a way to kind of elevate. His own credibility would be inaccurate but he was a working class Schuyler he was on government aid right up until his first big break and fighting correct connor took an apprenticeship to be a plumber and he hated needed it and he told his father. It's either fighting or nothing. And so he was earning essentially like from government assistance. One hundred eight euros a week until he won his first year. Oh see fight which paid him sixty thousand euros and that was kind of his big break. That eve is like all right. I finally don't have to be on government assistance anymore. I'm actually going to do this for real. Like a lot of fighters connor was motivated by what he perceived as his poverty. Now are there a lot poorer people in the Dublin Dublin area than Connor. Yes certainly grow up as like poor as Mike Tyson. Like no way but I mean he's still became like a folk hero to the Irish people. Can you kind of explain how are in that status. Boxing is a really important part of Irish culture. They really hang on the Olympic results. It's like every four years as as if they're Olympic fighters and this is both men and women don't do well. They're crushed even more so than soccer and so conor came up a little bit through that tradition. As it was part of the Kremlin boxing club and he was an average boxer. He wasn't particularly. I would say skilled but as has fighting became more popular in Ireland in in Great Britain and in Europe Connor was more drawn to that and there really wasn't a way to make make a living as a mixed martial arts fighter in Ireland before Connor. He made it possible like this dream was was real. He echoed working working class and that made a lot of people really proud. That meets a lot of Irish people feel like this is our Avatar for the new century. New Era of Ireland but on you said humble in Encarta McGregor in the same sentence yeah. It's it's hard to believe now but in the beginning connor was seen as kind of funny but more humble figure we talked to oh cyrus redder a UN McKenna. Who met him at a McDonald's rates after he won his first big fight and didn't even have a car back then he had sort of job into there and he was super funny and polite and friendly and you know he's confident in his skills as a fighter but wasn't this kind of outward outlandish? Should Steve Austin type character and what happened as things went on is that Connor learned the best way for him to move up within the OC and and make a lot of money was blend the lines between what was kind of a wwe style character. And I'd like to take this chance to apologize. Is You buddy. When did the kind of hyping persona start got to show itself so back in the early part of Connor's career? He kind of started understand that the best way for him to promote himself was Denali social media but to kind kind of get some of his early fans to sort of help him out into sort of encourage them to to talk up. Talk him up. And you have SI president Dana White went to to Dublin in two thousand and thirteen to basically get an award from Trinity College for something some people in Ufc they they kind of invited connor out to dinner. And we're like bladder note. This guy can fight but if he can fight it all he is going to be an absolute superstar because he has charisma out the eyeballs. I can't and so we really really kind of through his personality that he managed to get various kind of bigger and bigger boats until he. He talked his way right. Up onto getting a title fight was been the high point of his career. In the octagon when Conor McGregor fought Jose Aldo. I think there was still a lot of doubts just about whether this guy was more mouth or more more skills and Jose those legendary figure within fighting and we came from this gracie tradition in Brazil. And everyone thought like okay. This guy is just a lethal fighter. He is going to be able to just absolutely shut. This clown up and when they faced off there was a huge amount of hype as a huge amount of paper. View buys drugs to the southbound Torius lacks the champion Joe and they walked towards another. They had all this animosity. All this trash talk leading up to fight and Connor Cottam with a nasty hook thirteen seconds into the fight and Aldo Aldo. Dropped to the canvas and it was just like Oh my gosh this guy talk the talk and walk the walk and news undisputed featherweight featherweight champion. The world McGregor again during the high times as he won around the world what was Kinda McGregor's relationship shit with his homeland. Irish people by nature. And they'll tell you this so whether you believe it or not but that they're sort of humble there about family there. They were sort of told to be reserved served stuff. Connor was not that connor especially as he Scott. More famous was someone who was very much about. I'm the king in a lot of people felt like maybe we should celebrate our successes. Maybe we should be more proud of who we are in. Maybe Connor is the kind of Avatar of that he he can. Kinda represent are so things started to change. Though when Connor started seeking a fight with the boxer floyd mayweather so he steps outside of of his own sport and he opens up a whole door of controversy with the story behind this fight before they entered the ring. One thing about the you can say about connors whether you kind of by into whether it's one of the great fighters of all time. He is certainly one of the greatest people at promoting fights and with that came. I think some really complicated morality connor. I understood that some of the appeal of like rocky versus creed was that it was a black ivers as a white guy why and connor knew that he wasn't deep down in the same boxing. Classes Floyd Mayweather and Floyd Mayweather also knew that so connor. Her started to sort of really lean hard into this character and so in the promotion of this fight conor used I think a lot of pretty ugly language language that for the first time people were like like I know this is all like part of the game but this is kind of making me pretty uncomfortable. Boy Boy does he suggested that a lot of the media thinks I have a problem with black black people from the penny down. Now you can see this having played out in the Irish media. There's a lot of people said this has gotten to be too ugly to ignore conor. McGregor doesn't get a pass on his racism simply because he's an incredible athlete because he's a great fighter because he's making a lot of money. I think what's a lot of people felt what was that. Connor began to kind of lose him. In this character. You can only play a character for so long before that becomes who you really are. So Oh I guess in the lead up to that. Fight recognizing like fighting's history with using race to sell the fight was their constituency. Okay that was on connor side. I think that one thing that's interesting and complicated about connor is that he's always sort of represented a sort of clash of cultures. There's there is a little bit of of nationalism involved in the sort of appeal of fighting like whether it was mayweather fight whether it was Habib fight like people you saw connor as like this sort of representative of white identity and of the West and then he lost the fight. The watts he did lead the fight mayweather. I think most people would tell you that one of lead me with his great skills sort of been selling fights breath and I think you can look at it from the specter of a well. It went almost ten rounds like it was in the tenth round that that Floyd scored a Tko the McGregor again. I would say he did not embarrass themselves. But I would almost bet you that most boxing afficionados does would tell you that fight could have over in three minutes and people would have been livid and felt like they got totally ripped off so what floyd was willing to do is just kinda intellect congregated in the little punches here and there and and basically pull off an incredible heights. I mean people are willing to pay it. We're the suckers in the whole thing right. Not Not Floyd and Garner coming up with all the controversy surrounding Conor McGregor how you have see responding at Espn daily covering the greatest sports stories in history. Three we know what makes the Dream Team. And when you're hiring for your business you need the recruits. That will become champions. That's why you need indeed for your business indeed will help help you find the best playmakers for your business with tools like online skills tests that help candidates show. They're the perfect tire for you. Post your next job at indeed dot com slash rush. ESPN daily and try skills tests for free that's indeed dot com slash. ESPN daily terms conditions and exclusions apply Kevin. The racist comments are one thing but he also had a a series of criminal allegations he did. And that's where I think things started to get even uglier as it no longer. Was this character something that connor just said but it was sort of playing itself out in things that he was doing in the build up to the fight with could be Moraga made off Not only was connor. Serve using really kind of you know awful illusions about Muslims about You know cubs manager. He kept referring to him as a terrorist. He came to the Barclays Center in the lead up to one of the. US's and picked up a a Dolly. The kind of thing that used to say would move a refrigerator on wheels and he threw it through the window of the bus where Bieb Bob and his teammates were which caused a couple of fighters to have to pull out of that. You have see because there were injured by the class and Dana White at the time said the most disgusting thing that has ever happened in the history of the company but you could see some ways weighs like the FCC policy because they would later use those same images to promote the fight when it was time for Connor in face one another the contract. He had an incident in his home country to right he did so. If you ask most people in Ireland Orlands what was it. That really began to change their opinion about connor. Would they would tell you. Is that when there was footage that came out. TMZ acquired it of of him punching an older man in a pub in Crumlin this video surfacing Thursday showing the UFC star cold-cocking Amanda Bar in Dublin. Ireland April six. Let's take a look. Connor was came into the pub and with handing out glasses of his personal brand of whiskey and the guy didn't want to drink it and he'd turned down Connor couple couple times and said no. I don't WanNA drink this whiskey and connor turned in just cracked him right in the face. That really made a lot of people would be like. This guy is a jerk. This guy is really as scummy. And we're not gonNA support him anymore. The New York Times reported on some even more heinous allegations. There was clear if you were in Ireland. That conor McGregor was being investigated for something because they papers kept alluding to the Irish superstar are being investigated for sexual assault at at the but the liable laws in Ireland are much different than they are in the US you cannot name accused or the accuser until until there is a conviction not even just the charge and so there was always rumors that this was connor. Who is the person being investigated by the police? But the Times got four sources to confirm independently that was connor who was in being investigated for sexual assault and six months. After that day confirmed that he was another sexual assault was he was being investigated for. So it's really presenting. I think a lot of darker allusions to Connors Return. Where does this leave him in his reputation at home? I think a lot of people really look at him more as a curiosity as a bit of a freak show they they feel like he is returning to the ring to change the narrative surrounding him. I would say ninety nine percent of the people that we talked to said. Connor is awful whole. He doesn't represent us. He's an embarrassment. We went there not expecting that. We've meant they're expecting people to sort of still be in his corner so if he's going to win those people back back. It's GonNa be a longer road. I think then he thinks I have to admit when I was reading your article I enjoyed when you stumbled upon amateur rapper. Our Economy Gregor district. I mean that's sometimes the magic of reporting right is you go into a barbershop and you just start asking people about Gregor and the one guy is like Oh by the way Conor McGregor distract that. I'd love to play for you. Let me send it to you on WHATSAPP McGregor who takes with the arrogance of money of a Wall Street banker regarding that pinstripe suit. WHO GETS USED TO BE CUE which only disputes theological flavor quicker than the juicy fruit? I thought that was a good window into to this. Isn't just like educated upper-class professionals who are looking down on Connor McGregor and saying like Oh this is awful. This is like they're scraping together money for the pay per views. They're they're following the game. They're just see him as kind of a joke. And I I think conor would deny that conor would tell you that doesn't exist but I'll tell you it absolutely does in light of all this the racist remarks criminal allegations how has the UFC in its president. Dana White handled the controversy and allegations around McGregor. I think the truth is is that conor makes the UFC a ton of money. Connor is a money printing machine and and until he's no longer viable as a fighter. They're going to continue to use him in A. We asked Dana and the interview. You know how can you promote to fight with these allegations. Hangover said and Dina's response was he hasn't been charged with anything. Connor made a lot of bad decisions over the last year's unbelievable amount about decisions. and Are you gonNA stop a guy for making a living when he hasn't been charged so terms of the morality argument. The has always kind of taken a back seat to to to how much money this person can make us and everything points to connor eventually having a rematch with Habib maybe even by the end of the year and there would be a huge huge amount of money that everyone could make from that and so that's ultimately the the God that everyone is GonNa serve until it becomes untenable. Let's talk about where things stand now. Look at this fight. I was throwing on Saturday. Do from Greg Image. Well think it'd just be this first step on the redemption tour he. He talked a lot in our interview with Ariel Awani about how. Oh in such a horrendous camp in the training to face Habib that he was drinking all the time it wasn't training very hard almost who too intense in two series and they're not working hard enough outside. You know what I mean. You've got to be focused outside because then the next day rolls around you're focused when you left then it's time to back. You're not a shop. You're not especially not as eager to be there. It wasn't where he was at the mentally he just couldn't focus even though it was really the biggest fight of his life in part because he'd made so much money and it didn't really matter it was kind of more about bride than it was about status and he couldn't someone that end what he said in build up to this fight is he's got that hunger again he's willing to really sell out for fighting. I'm listening to myself and I followed my my internal instruction and it's just giving me more passionate more focus more driving. I'm doing what I feel I need to do. It's a fields glue now that he's been humbled a little bit that he realizes that people have begun to sort of be turned off by the character of gone umbrella. He's trying to get back to what he was as a fighter and I think we'll see that that power still the question I would ask as discounters still have that speed because a combination the nation of the two was really lethal in the ring. And I don't know as you start to get older. You might still have the strength but whether you can still combined it with the speed is tale is oldest As laugh addicks. The best case scenario is that connor will sort of return to that person that he was who is very skilled very dedicated fighter. What I think would be more interesting in some ways as if he did lose this? Fight where we'RE GONNA go. I imagine he would still try to fight again but who would be interested in have lost to you kind of someone who is completely over the hill as a fighter and no one would really care about some of his antics so the character that is connor. McGregor would kind of be debt. What happens if he wants to fight? What's next there'll be at least probably one more fight after this? If he does is when the fight who that would be with. I think he'll have to kind of auto with various people in C. N.. Everyone knows that he's focused on the the rematch with could Lebed. Who was really the best fighter in the world? He's he's this unmovable Russian force who is just not only strong but it completely completely emotionless in this kind of Drago type way and he handled connor so easily in the first fight that I think that if there was a rematch connor would enter as a huge underdog but that would just play more into this narrative that connor wants says that he has to kind of prove himself and if he does win then all of a sudden he's the king of the world again I appreciate it. Thanks for taking time with buddy. Aw That's our story for today. I'm Dominic Foxworth this has been. ESPN daily meaner will be back on Monday

connor conor McGregor Connor McGregor connors Times Espn UFC Connor Cottam Ireland Dublin Dana White floyd mayweather Crumlin Dominic Foxworth boxing Kevin Van Valkenburgh Dell Encarta McGregor Donald cerrone
ESPN Daily's 2020 NFL Draft Preview

First Draft

26:53 min | 11 months ago

ESPN Daily's 2020 NFL Draft Preview

"You start with the NFL draft which will be conducted remotely with team personnel working from their homes to projected top two picks. Lsu quarterback Joe Borough that guy and Ohio state defensive and chase young both expected to be a part of that telecast after weeks of rumors big boards mock after mock the NFL draft is finally upon us. The first round kicks off Thursday and we will be covering the big event all week beginning today with a preview from ESPN draft Guru Mel kiper junior which quarterback with dolphins tape which wide receiver will go. I will any team actually benefit from the move online. I mean it climbs. It's Monday twentieth. This is ESPN daily. Hey Mel I know this is not at all busy time of year for you so I figured I'd give you something to do. I'm excited I talk about the draft a little bit more. Mellow you have been covering the draft for decades but this is different from any draft. You've ever covered. Has that made it harder in any way for you to project where these guys are going. No I in fact. I think it's made it a little easier because the tape is so important. Meena teams are relying heavily on what they see not workout or a pro day or things like that. Not over analysing players are watching tape more than they edit grind and more than they ever have and I think that's going to help these teams Maybe do a better job than they ever thought. They could. With limited so so-called limited information so I don't think it's going to be a factor. I talked to teams. And they're not. They're not fearful about this. They're ready to go and they think for them. It can be an advantage there. Only concern about trades that maybe there won't be as many 'cause you'll have some of the communication with your people. Yeah right in the room that you would make easier to either gopher trade or or back off a trade so that's the only thing there was little trepidation about. Was the trade possibilities. Well let's just jump right into the draft. Your latest mock has of course jober going first overall chase young to Jeffrey Okuda at three. I don't think that's a huge surprise to anyone. You got the giants taking Isaiah Simmons which is interesting. Then the stutter. The Miami Dolphins who have been Hashtag tanking for for a year they take Justin. Herber Ya. There's always a curveball. It seems like that's believe me. This is what you hear not what I would necessarily do. But I'm not making that pick you keep hearing Justin. Herbert they're very high on you. Here in Cincinnati is very high on Herbert. That's I think led to people wondering will in fact they maybe you'd think about Miami who loves borough. Maybe they they want those picks. I figure if we can get Herbert at five. I'm talking about Cincinnati. Now we can make that deal if they did. That's the reason. I think it would be because the how high they are on Justin. Herbert we keep hearing. Miami is so if they can get five. They'll take him in intuit. Go six charger so it really just depends on how they feel about two as long term durability and really beyond that Nina. It's Herbert people want to say. Well he's he's he's being overdrafted he shouldn't be in the top ten. I talked. Nfl People. They don't agree with that. They didn't Herbert's big time. So this notion of Justin Herbert some guy that's being pushed up boards for ridiculous reasons we've talked to the NFL. They laugh at that. They think that's crazy. Talk if the bengals actually did that. I think that if they traded down and Got Herbert and gave the dolphins Joe Bro. I think that fan base would lose their minds. I don't think it's going to happen but if it did it would be for that reason. I think this is. I brought it up just to show how much interest there isn't Herbert too. I watch them at the at the combine. Everybody gravitated the Herbert. So you don't have to be this boisterous loud yeller and screamer to be a leader of a football team but I think they're NFL teams. That believe he can do that and and injured to a with durability concern. Would be the reason why Herbert who does have as I say. A lot of low from the people. I've talked the. Nfl The reason why he could go slightly. Just one pick ahead of two and I'll say this if he doesn't go to the chargers to then where does he go? That opens up all kinds of possibilities. Well let's talk about two has been hurt by the current situation with the pandemic not being able to have team doctors look at him. I think a lot you talk to. They like to have that ability. They don't have that. Were for a player coming off a significant injury with the hip and they already had you know injuries prior to that what I keep hearing from people I speak to is what's going to happen. Kenny protect his body. Nick Sabin brought it up. You know he takes a lot of hits. Some pressure throws able to complete the Judy. Qena fifteen on the play the first down watchdog about lower. Get up every single time. He doesn't seem to be able to recognize what's happening in the pocket because he puts his body in harm's way too often and he holds the ball alluded. The holding. You GotTa get it out of you gotta learn when to go back and fight another day. You got to get rid of the ball so again. There are times where he's got to be smarter. Will you learn that? And once he's in the. Nfl can take hits when he had problems being fragile in college. I heard the fragile word learning to do this if he doesn't look at the NFL draft. So again I think that's the concern is long term short term and long term durability for a position. I brought this up this week and there were people screaming that everybody gets hurt playing fell. Everybody can get hurt. We'll not quarterbacks me there's reasons for teams to be a little leery of two of that early when there's a big time prospect Herbert on the board at that point you have him with the very next picked being taken by the Los Angeles chargers who Currently they're starting quarterback is tyrod Taylor veteran. Bit of a Journeyman at this point. Anthony Lynn. His head coach has been enthusiastic about him. Do you think the plan would be to have to potentially redshirt behind tyrod? Yes we don't know what situation is going to be with the NFL this year When they're gonNA play even with that being said I would medically redshirt him. I would let the body heal. It's great that he's coming back from the HIP. I Love San all these encouraging signs. Everybody does your route for a kid like this. We know. What kind of quarterback is when he's healthy to go to the chargers would energize at fan base. May Not you're competing against the rams. You can have Taylor there to be the as you say the bridge to two in year. Two people say was that so bad. The Patrick mahomes players are rookie. You know this game better than anybody. Did he play now? He played the final game and it. Alex Smith was the quarterback so again Patrick mahomes inhabiting injury issues but he didn't play as a rookie. I'm glad you brought up Patrick. Mahomes because you gave me a segue to the next quarterback Jordan love who I want to say. I am not comparing him to Patrick Mahomes. But he does have homes. Equality's way throws the ball you've got him at nineteen to the. Tell me why you saw. That fit the comparisons. The mahomes are exaggerated. I've done it before so I'm not going to blame. Everybody does it. We all feel like a guy you exaggerated a bit and you go a little overboard and I always said with with Jordan love. I can see the arm talent like everybody else. I watched them two years ago. Love what I saw when he had all those receivers Darwin Thompson at running back and he was making plays completing thirty two touchdown passes and this year. You knew and what I do in August when you're looking at guys for next year and you look at who they lost and what's coming back. You knew Josh Allen wasn't GonNa have great numbers that final year. He lost running back centre tight end. Receiver all went to the NFL. You Knew Sam. Darnold wasn't GonNa have the same numbers. He lost his key player or a lot of his key players. You knew Jordan was not gonNA put up the numbers at Utah. State losing four starters on the line and all those receivers and his top running back so he didn't and he ends up throwing seventeen interceptions from the thirty. One can't take a sack here either. You knew that. But he made bad throws he made bad decisions. A lot of it had to do with him just for some things but the armed town is real. I think he's a first round caliber quarterback. Some thought that I've spoken to things second round I don't but in terms of Jordan love finding a spot a landing spot for him may not be anxious to hear what you think. I think the raiders twelve or nineteen with a hunch with Jon. Gruden that maybe he'll look handpick a quarterback Roy for the first time ever. Yeah I mean he's got a lot of the qualities we know. Jon Gruden has liked in the past the athleticism the arm we also know They're not entirely. Satisfied are confident in their car. Being the long term future so given that they've got a few picks it makes sense to me that they might roll the dice. But if you need a great quarterback beat Mahomes then you maybe you roll the dice Jordan. Love could be that guy and if Derek ends up winning big would've you lost me. That's a win win. You still have Jordan love. Derek Carr Winds Bigger Amari Oto gums and whatever and becomes tannehill. Whatever you win. You're happy but if you don't and you see we can only get so far with this quarterback then you have Jordan lava we know is kind of a developmental quarterback needs a year or two. Everybody says he's got to get to the right system. Who's got to Andy Reid right perfect? Wouldn't it be great for I love to be with Gruden and then year two year three? If Derek doesn't get it done to level John Watson to which is winning divisions winning maybe get to a super bowl then Jordan. Love would be to maybe do it so one team. You do not have taken quarterback in the first round is the New England Patriots team that I think some people would put in the camp of organizations. That might be looking at these quarterbacks. Why didn't you give them one? It was hard. I DIDN'T WANNA move love down to twenty three. I DIDN'T WANNA GO WITH. Jalen hurts because I think it's even though I heard that and you can believe it or not. I heard that they had a strong interest in. Jalen hurts Pittsburgh as well again. The Pittsburgh hurts in the second round but I I taught. Twenty three was a little rich for me. Twenty three for Jalen hurts a little high so I didn't do that but they could. Maybe they trade out of twenty three and get into the early second and look at Jalen. Hurts. Jordan loves there. I'm sure they could look at him. I just don't see him being there. Twenty three so to answer your question. I just couldn't find the spot to put the quarterback that I thought in WanNa drop love that foreign. I didn't want to push up that far after the break. Let's talk about this year's receiver class and how the draft will be unlike any. We've experienced before Mel. Everybody is obsessed with the wide receivers in this draft. What order go in any one thing that surprised me about your mock was not that you had Jerry? Judy going ninth overall. I think a lot of people expect him to be Hammer. Cdrom to be the first but that you had him going to Jacksonville. Tell me about that. I didn't know what to do with Jacksonville. May Not kin law. I thought was a little hodge. Devan KINLOCH defensive. Tackle didn't really know what. Put an offensive tackle there and you know drop in Isaiah. Simmons WanNa do that so I went with a guy who could be like. I compare them the Marvin Harrison a year or two ago. Great route runner guy was Marvin. At the whole of all of the year he came out I pick them for the whole of the players at your main and he came into the locker room and I was in the locker room and I remember Hawaii. We're in Honolulu and he came in. Just what the businesslike approach that Jane face on just ready to just practice in play hard and get after it. And that's the way Jerry Judy. As he's not flashy just a guy goes out and does his job. So I thought Carter Menchu if you're all going to be all in if everybody's all in on Gardner Menchu an android or did play wells a rookie. Then why not get him? A guy like judy to go along with what they have and they have some some very competent receivers. No question about that. But to get a guy like judy in with what they have would really strengthen that football team's ability to throw the football or he'll help Trevor Lawrence. Well you is Gardner. Meant Shoe GonNa be not the guy that they think. He is We'll say this'll be a big year for Gardner and then of course Lawrence next year the the first pick in the draft. You would hope with thank would be him. I'm not gonNA say guaranteed like Andrew. Lock but you would say pretty close to it. I guess meaning that he's the Andrew Luck of next year. Strap so mel you mentioned. That teams aren't particularly worried but it is going to be very different everything about this. The logistics of it. How it's being run the way in which these teams will be operating in place in their pigs. Can you explain to us how it's going to work well? This virtual draft that the communication is going to be so key there weren't about their Internet connections and hacking and all these different things that I know nothing about me all I know is if you have a landline use it. I have multiple landlines. Use them communicate via the telephone? I always get frustrated with my daughter will always tell you. I talked to somebody today. And that's good but I've found that it wasn't so I was texting. I don't consider texting talking Yeah I think it's GonNa be challenging but you've had months to get ready for this. They had the combine workout where you saw everybody there. They've had plenty of time wartime than ever to evaluate tape. I think everybody's is going to be fine. How it will work? I don't think they know until it actually happens how it's GonNa work. I think they're a little. I guess fearful of technology breaking down and things like that with the Internet but Though at the end of the day I think they should all be fine. Well let me ask you about You know we've been talking about how the teams will be effective. What about you? You are normally onset at the draft. Where are you going to be? How are you covering it for us? I'm sitting in the same chair right now doing this podcast to be sitting in the whole three days. And it's the same chair I sit in when I do my. Nfl Live segments sportscenter segments. Whatever it may be sportscenter specials. Whatever it is Through glow point with This chair with Dr Ian Bell Show. I do sitting in this chair. I do the podcast sitting in this chair. This is the same room. Same Job Looking Camera. At least you won't have the ability to communicate through hand signals or I contact. No I got something or i WanNa comment after you do or I wanted to jump in here. That'll be different now. We talked about how to a has been affected by everything that's been happening with a pandemic are there any other players notable players you think might see their draft. Status Change. Because this hasn't been business as usual. I think some of the combine guys who didn't run like Cameron Dance Lower Corner from Mississippi State. Rent four six four but nice to try to run a four five four Which I think he probably could have. Now those are things where teams will evaluate how they played jared pinkney vanderbilt never productive year. They had new coordinator. He didn't get the ball then. He ran slower-than-expected at the combine. Those are the types of things or guys at didn't run to combine. We're going to run it their pro day. They don't even have time one them K. J. Hamblur. You'd always fast. He was going to run his pro day. Those things mean a May factor in just a little bit. They always say the eye in the sky never lies her back forty years ago. I in the sky never lies and that's looking at football players with the PADS on on Game Day. And if they play great and that's why we always have late round steals and undrafted free agents. Who MAKES IT? Because they're the football players that people got down one because they didn't test well and guys go earlier times the guys tests well but didn't play great but then they ought to all come together once you're in the NFL you know it all when we coach them up. We'll get all that talent really prosper and it'll all come come front and center once they're with us. That's why those guys go early. And as I said the th the overachievers productive guys don't test well get way push way down. Don't worry about those. That stop watches much. Worry about those computer numbers as much. Worry about how guys play well along those lines in the teams who can find those undrafted gems and maybe lean more on the tape. What sort of teams do you think will actually benefit from this? Well I think the teams that I think everybody. Even the Bengals have a lot of coaches involved in their evaluations with the time element being the way it was. I think a lot of things said well. They didn't want it push back because they felt like teams could catch up. So the the the length the April twenty third and it gives everybody a chance no matter how you do it. If you're scouting heavy scout heavy or your coach heavy in terms of who really factors into your final decision. Making all teams are different. Some value the opinion of assistant coaches more than others and personnel people. But I think the teams that you see that are picking at the end of the draft made to look at look at all those teams if you see their perennial winners at the end. They're there for a reason and I was looking at this. Did you notice that there aren't any running backs on those teams went in the first round the go from the from the eighteen down a first round running backs for those teams now with actually drafted them mark? Ingram was drafted by Ravens. So again it wasn't a first L. The first round running back snow up there in Trenton early. So again that's why we say why is only one running back on the go and maybe not until the end of the first round is for that reason. Why are most of the running backs with different teams even todd Gurley now with Atlanta from just a few years ago? It's for that reason so again. That's why I've always said I wouldn't draft running back in round. One at the grade was equal to the back. Fine but this year may not be Navy Andrea Swift out of Georgia maybe. Jk Dobbins Ohio. St Louis Riddick thanks. Jonathan Taylor from Wisconsin could be but I only think at the end of a Thursday one running back will be taken around one. Well one exception for a good team is my Seattle seahawks. Who as you remember? Took her shod penny in the first round in two thousand eighteen. But Mel. I'll give you a spoiler for. He was a guy that was. That's true and and I'll give you a spoiler for the seahawks. They're going to trade down directly our trade out of the first round always always well. Let me ask you about your history. You Root for Baltimore. Which like to see them do well. I would like to see them fix the inside linebacker position and they can with Kenneth Murray Oklahoma or Patrick Queen from Lsu. I would like to see them get an interior presence at center guard with Marshall Yonder retiring and Matt Score Injury and Macari did a nice job as an undrafted free agent. Find for Eric Decosta. Kelly find those guys all the time they get undrafted but a little bit more of an interior presence there along the line another receiver. Miles Boykin needs to step up this year. Hollywood you know what you're getting there if he can stay healthy. He's a heck of a player but miles boykin key. I think they'll draft the receiver draft another young defensive line and you got delays Campbell and Derek Wolfe with Brandon Williams but UNITA a younger guy there and other set in the secondary set tight end. Senate running back You know they're in good shape kicking game. Everything there but linebacker is the key you thought about history with the seahawks trading out the ravens had a great history of drafting pass rushers late in the draft that Area Smith Pernell mcphee Matthew Japan. So they will always take a chance late on somebody slide through the cracks that can get after the quarterback. Now I just have one last question for you amidst everything going on. It's not always easy for us to get our usual supplies grocery store. Have you been able to get your Pumpkin Pie for breakfast? Here's the story. My Wife my beautiful life Kim. Who Does everything for me? Everything she makes everything happen. She always wanted me to have a Pumpkin Pie that she baked that. I would actually never did refuse because I like the grocery store. Pumpkin pies the Safeway Pumpkin politics okay. They are my favorite. That's why I don't need you to make me anything. I love this so if you make it. I'm not eating did well. She has been making these Pumpkin pies and they have been extraordinary. Best Pumpkin pies. I've ever had so what an idiot I've been. I've been married now thirty one years Nina and finally a meeting Kim Capers Pumpkin pies. Which are the best? You'll ever WANNA eat Kim diaper. Ever truly the draft winner. Put Up with me for all these years. She Saint. Thanks so much mail bags you take care coming up what really separates to a ton of low from the other quarterbacks in this year's draft and the NFL period so you just heard us talk about to Tango Loa with Mel Kiper Junior. There's been a lot of attention on his health after his season ending hip injury but our Kevin Van Valkenburgh wrote a piece. That focused on another unique facet of to his body. His left Handedness Kevin. How rare is it to be a lefty quarterback these days these days? It's almost unheard of. There hasn't been left handed quarterback. He's in a backup since two thousand sixteen when Kelly Moore started a few games for the cowboys and then basically since that no left-hander has been able to catch on in the NFL which is kind of weird. Almost like defies statistical anomalies. So it's been very rare recently but there are plenty of famous left handed quarterbacks in NFL. History Steve Young Mark Brunell. What's been going on in recent years when I went to the combine this year. I asked pretty much every. Gm and coach. I could find ended up getting like twenty-five of different teams and what they all kind of said is. We don't really know the answer. A lot of speculate that maybe baseball is stealing a lot of them. But it's really hard to find like concrete examples of someone who was like a good high school left handed quarterback and then completely decided you know what I'm going to go into baseball because I can be a middle reliever I can have a longer. Career could be starter Clayton. Kershaw make big money so I think that what's people starting to wonder if maybe are left. He's getting phase out even before they get a chance to play quarterback as a teenager. Why might that be like what is so unusual about throwing fan? I think what's probably the most likely thing that football coaches are so in love with details in routine and sort of sticking with what they know that they simply don't WanNa flip all their formations like every single you drop back you have to protect quarterback's blindside in a completely having to flip that With every single. Play thinking like okay. Where might the blitz where the pressure come from where the quarterback can't see it? That might make you have to rethink a lot of different kind of favorite plays and it just coaches are so kind of militaristic in specific about the stuff that they like even little subtle flips. They might decide. I just don't WanNa do that. I'm not going to bother coaching. Left one of the craziest person your stories spoke with Steve. Young who said that his dad actually try to train the left hand out of him by tying his left hand behind his back didn't do that to to us as he always been a lefty people tried to convert him to right handedness. What's interesting about too? Is that his dad? Actually too is naturally a right handed player and he does pretty much everything else. He Plays Golf Right. Handed shoots a basketball right. Hannity Eats Right handed but his dad decided for whatever reason that he wanted him to be a lefty and so he just forced him over and over and over again to throw lefty. So it's kind of the opposite of what young went through right where his dad tried to make him. A righty just because being left handed back then. There was this stigma attached to it and to was the opposite at so when I told Steve Young that he was almost flabbergasted he couldn't believe it because he sort of said you know there's so much kinda like great touch into his left eats through throwing ability that I just don't believe it. I have to have to convince yourself that. There's some left handedness in his DNA. Is there any chance at all that? This impacts is draft stock. Or maybe how coaches look at him. No coach will admit it and I think that what most of them sort of feel like is. Hey if you bring me a great left-hander I'm happy to coach. And so I think that well maybe back. In the day some coaches would have decided like tiebreaker. You know what? There's a fifth round kid and there's two quarterbacks that we're kind of looking at let's go with the righty instead of going that the left has just kind of decreases some of the variables here but with someone as good as to. I think they're just going to say you know what there's plenty of evidence that left handedness It can work in the NFL. Whether it's our Brunell or Michael. Vick Core Steve. Young or even back to stay. You also mentioned your piece that while left. Handedness is increasingly rare in football. Six of the past twelve presidents have been left handed. Kevin explain this to me. It's crazy it is crazy. It's one of the more interesting presidential trivia questions right like it's something that some left handed people feel like. Maybe there's something about being left handed that makes you sort of more creative or more analytical or something that makes me kind of I kind of wonder that maybe the things that make you left handed naturally make you less interested in football. That's kind of one of the more unknowable things but certainly something that even young when I posed that question to him was like you know. Maybe that's true. Maybe football's driving away. Some of our most creative people Kevin. Are you left handed? I'm not me neither? I guess we're just not creative for special. But we could be quarterbacks you could totally get some seven on sevens and tear it up all right. Thanks so much buddy. I mean at times and this has been ESPN daily. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

NFL Justin Herbert football Guru Mel kiper Jordan ESPN Cincinnati Miami Patrick Mahomes Mark Brunell Jerry Judy chargers Steve Young Lsu Kevin Van Valkenburgh Jonathan Taylor Miami Dolphins bengals Nina Kim Capers
ESPN Daily's 2020 NFL Draft Preview

ESPN Daily

27:51 min | 11 months ago

ESPN Daily's 2020 NFL Draft Preview

"You start with the NFL draft which will be conducted remotely with team personnel working from their homes to projected top two picks. Lsu quarterback Joe Borough that guy and Ohio state defensive and chase young both expected to be a part of that telecast after weeks of rumors big boards mock after mock the NFL draft is finally upon us. The first round kicks off Thursday and we will be covering the big event all week beginning today with a preview from ESPN draft Guru Mel kiper junior which quarterback with dolphins tape which wide receiver will go. I will any team actually benefit from the move online. I mean it climbs. It's Monday twentieth. This is ESPN daily. Hey Mel I know this is not at all busy time of year for you so I figured I'd give you something to do. I'm excited I talk about the draft a little bit more. Mellow you have been covering the draft for decades but this is different from any draft. You've ever covered. Has that made it harder in any way for you to project where these guys are going. No I in fact. I think it's made it a little easier because the tape is so important. Meena teams are relying heavily on what they see not workout or a pro day or things like that. Not over analysing players are watching tape more than they edit grind and more than they ever have and I think that's going to help these teams Maybe do a better job than they ever thought. They could. With limited so so-called limited information so I don't think it's going to be a factor. I talked to teams. And they're not. They're not fearful about this. They're ready to go and they think for them. It can be an advantage there. Only concern about trades that maybe there won't be as many 'cause you'll have some of the communication with your people. Yeah right in the room that you would make easier to either gopher trade or or back off a trade so that's the only thing there was little trepidation about. Was the trade possibilities. Well let's just jump right into the draft. Your latest mock has of course jober going first overall chase young to Jeffrey Okuda at three. I don't think that's a huge surprise to anyone. You got the giants taking Isaiah Simmons which is interesting. Then the stutter. The Miami Dolphins who have been Hashtag tanking for for a year they take Justin. Herber Ya. There's always a curveball. It seems like that's believe me. This is what you hear not what I would necessarily do. But I'm not making that pick you keep hearing Justin. Herbert they're very high on you. Here in Cincinnati is very high on Herbert. That's I think led to people wondering will in fact they maybe you'd think about Miami who loves borough. Maybe they they want those picks. I figure if we can get Herbert at five. I'm talking about Cincinnati. Now we can make that deal if they did. That's the reason. I think it would be because the how high they are on Justin. Herbert we keep hearing. Miami is so if they can get five. They'll take him in intuit. Go six charger so it really just depends on how they feel about two as long term durability and really beyond that Nina. It's Herbert people want to say. Well he's he's he's being overdrafted he shouldn't be in the top ten. I talked. Nfl People. They don't agree with that. They didn't Herbert's big time. So this notion of Justin Herbert some guy that's being pushed up boards for ridiculous reasons we've talked to the NFL. They laugh at that. They think that's crazy. Talk if the bengals actually did that. I think that if they traded down and Got Herbert and gave the dolphins Joe Bro. I think that fan base would lose their minds. I don't think it's going to happen but if it did it would be for that reason. I think this is. I brought it up just to show how much interest there isn't Herbert too. I watch them at the at the combine. Everybody gravitated the Herbert. So you don't have to be this boisterous loud yeller and screamer to be a leader of a football team but I think they're NFL teams. That believe he can do that and and injured to a with the durability concern would be the reason why. Herbert who does have as I say a lot of low from the people? I've talked the. Nfl The reason why he could go slightly. Just one pick ahead of two and I'll say this if he doesn't go to the chargers to then where does he go? That opens up all kinds of possibilities. Well let's talk about two has been hurt by the current situation with the pandemic not being able to have team doctors look at him. I think a lot you talk to. They like to have that ability. They don't have that. Were for a player coming off a significant injury with the hip and they already had you know injuries prior to that what I keep hearing from people I speak to is what's going to happen. Kenny protect his body. Nick Sabin brought it up. You know he takes a lot of hits. Some pressure throws able to complete the Judy. Qena fifteen on the play the first down watchdog about lower. Get up every single time. He doesn't seem to be able to recognize what's happening in the pocket because he puts his body in harm's way too often and he holds the ball alluded. The holding. You GotTa get it out of you gotta learn when to go back and fight another day. You got to get rid of the ball so again. There are times where he's got to be smarter. Will you learn that? And once he's in the. Nfl can take hits when he had problems being fragile in college. I heard the fragile word learning to do this if he doesn't look at the NFL draft. So again I think that's the concern is long term short term and long term durability for a position. I brought this up this week and there were people screaming that everybody gets hurt playing fell. Everybody can get hurt. We'll not quarterbacks me there's reasons for teams to be a little leery of two of that early when there's a big time prospect Herbert on the board at that point you have him with the very next picked being taken by the Los Angeles chargers who Currently they're starting quarterback is tyrod Taylor veteran. Bit of a Journeyman at this point. Anthony Lynn. His head coach has been enthusiastic about him. Do you think the plan would be to have to potentially redshirt behind tyrod? Yes we don't know what situation is going to be with the NFL this year When they're gonNA play even with that being said I would medically redshirt him. I would let the body heal. It's great that he's coming back from the HIP. I Love San all these encouraging signs. Everybody does your route for a kid like this. We know. What kind of quarterback is when he's healthy to go to the chargers would energize at fan base. May Not you're competing against the rams. You can have Taylor there to be the as you say the bridge to two in year. Two people say was that so bad. The Patrick mahomes players are rookie. You know this game better than anybody. Did he play now? He played the final game and it. Alex Smith was the quarterback so again Patrick mahomes inhabiting injury issues but he didn't play as a rookie. I'm glad you brought up Patrick. Mahomes because you gave me a segue to the next quarterback Jordan love who I want to say. I am not comparing him to Patrick Mahomes. But he does have homes. Equality's way throws the ball you've got him at nineteen to the. Tell me why you saw. That fit the comparisons. The mahomes are exaggerated. I've done it before so I'm not going to blame. Everybody does it. We all feel like a guy you exaggerated a bit and you go a little overboard and I always said with with Jordan love. I can see the arm talent like everybody else. I watched them two years ago. Love what I saw when he had all those receivers Darwin Thompson at running back and he was making plays completing thirty two touchdown passes and this year. You knew and what I do in August when you're looking at guys for next year and you look at who they lost and what's coming back. You knew Josh Allen wasn't GonNa have great numbers that final year. He lost running back centre tight end. Receiver all went to the NFL. You Knew Sam. Darnold wasn't GonNa have the same numbers. He lost his key player or a lot of his key players. You knew Jordan was not gonNA put up the numbers at Utah. State losing four starters on the line and all those receivers and his top running back so he didn't and he ends up throwing seventeen interceptions from the thirty. One can't take a sack here either. You knew that. But he made bad throws he made bad decisions. A lot of it had to do with him just for some things but the armed town is real. I think he's a first round caliber quarterback. Some thought that I've spoken to things second round I don't but in terms of Jordan love finding a spot a landing spot for him may not be anxious to hear what you think. I think the raiders twelve or nineteen with a hunch with Jon. Gruden that maybe he'll look handpick a quarterback Roy for the first time ever. Yeah I mean he's got a lot of the qualities we know. Jon Gruden has liked in the past the athleticism the arm we also know They're not entirely. Satisfied are confident in their car. Being the long term future so given that they've got a few picks it makes sense to me that they might roll the dice. But if you need a great quarterback beat Mahomes then you maybe you roll the dice Jordan. Love could be that guy and if Derek ends up winning big would've you lost me. That's a win win. You still have Jordan love. Derek Carr Winds Bigger Amari Oto gums and whatever and becomes tannehill. Whatever you win. You're happy but if you don't and you see we can only get so far with this quarterback then you have Jordan lava we know is kind of a developmental quarterback needs a year or two. Everybody says he's got to get to the right system. Who's got to Andy Reid right perfect? Wouldn't it be great for I love to be with Gruden and then year two year three? If Derek doesn't get it done to level John Watson to which is winning divisions winning maybe get to a super bowl then Jordan. Love would be to maybe do it so one team. You do not have taken quarterback in the first round is the New England Patriots team that I think some people would put in the camp of organizations. That might be looking at these quarterbacks. Why didn't you give them one? It was hard. I DIDN'T WANNA move love down to twenty three. I DIDN'T WANNA GO WITH. Jalen hurts because I think it's even though I heard that and you can believe it or not. I heard that they had a strong interest in. Jalen hurts Pittsburgh as well again. The Pittsburgh hurts in the second round but I I taught. Twenty three was a little rich for me. Twenty three for Jalen hurts a little high so I didn't do that but they could. Maybe they trade out of twenty three and get into the early second and look at Jalen. Hurts. Jordan loves there. I'm sure they could look at him. I just don't see him being there. Twenty three so to answer your question. I just couldn't find the spot to put the quarterback that I thought in WanNa drop love that foreign. I didn't want to push up that far after the break. Let's talk about this year's receiver class and how the draft will be unlike any we've experienced before there's only one beer out there that's literally made to chill and that's core is liked the mountains on the bottles and cans even turn blue when you're beers cult that way you always know when it's time to till we need to hit reset just open a coors light. It's mountain cold refreshment made to chill these days. Everything is go. Go go nonstop. Hustle has taken over. And it's kind of a lot. There's work friends family. A million pressing social issues an expectation to be on all the time. If the pace of things is wearing you down. Take a moment pause. Refresh yourself you need a moment to turn off for a little bit by mindlessly scrolling on your phone or binge watching TV just to drink. That's my cores. Light is the one to choose. We need a moment of chill so when you want to reset reach for the beer that's made to chill. You can have light delivered by going to get dot cores. Light DOT COM and finding local delivery options near you celebrate responsibly course Brewing Company. Golden Colorado Mel. Everybody is obsessed with the wide receivers in this draft. What order they'll go in in many One thing that surprised me about your mock was not that you had jerry. Judy going nice overall. I think a lot of people expect him to be him or cd-rom to be the first. But then you had him going to Jacksonville. Tell me about that. I didn't know what to do with Jacksonville. Kin Law thought was Little Hodge Yvonne. Ken Law Defensive Tackle. Didn't really know what. Put an offensive tackle their drop in. Isaiah Simmons and want to do that so I I went with a guy who could be like. I compare them to Marvin Harrison a year or two ago. A great route runner. I was with Marvin at the at the whole of all of the year he came out. I pick them for the whole of the players that year and he came into the locker room and I was in the locker room and I remember Yes Hawaii. We're in Honolulu and he came in with the business. Like approach had that that game face on just ready to just practice and play hard and get after it. That's the way Jerry Judy. As he's not flashy just a guy goes out and does his job so with cardinals. Men's shoe if you're all going to be all in if everybody's all in on Gardner Menchu and enjoy deployed wells are rookie. Then why not a guy like judy to go along with what they have and they have some some very competent receivers. No question about that. But to get judy in with what they have would really strengthen that football team's ability to throw the football or Hel help terror alerts nuture. Well you Gardner. Men's Shoe GonNa be not the guy that they think he is. We'll say this'll be a big year for Gardner and then of course Lawrence next year the first pick in the draft you would hope with thanked would be him. I'm not gonNA say guaranteed like Andrew. Lock but you would say pretty close to it. I guess that he's the Andrew Luck of next year's draft. So Mel you mentioned that teams aren't particularly worried but it is going to be very different everything about this logistics of it. How it's being run. The way in which these teams will be operating in place in their pigs. Can you explain to us how it's going to work well? This virtual draft the the communication is going to be so key They're worrying about their Internet connections and hacking and all these different things that I know nothing about me and all I know is if you have a landline use it. I'll have multiple landlines. Use them communicate via the telephone? I always I buy got frustrated with my daughter will always say I talked to somebody today. And that's good but I found that it wasn't tax thing. I don't consider texting talking. I think it's GONNA BE CHALLENGING. But you've had months to get ready for this. They had the combine workout where you saw everybody there. They've had plenty of time more time than ever to evaluate tape. I think everybody is going to be fine. How it will work? I don't think they know mean until it actually happens how it's GonNa work. I think they're a little. I guess fearful of technology breaking down and things like that with the Internet. Though at the end of the day I think they should all be fine. Let me ask you You know we've been talking about how they teams will be effective. What about you? You are normally onset at the draft. Where are you going to be covering it for us? I'm sitting in the same chair right now doing this. Podcast them to be sitting in the whole three days. And it's the same chair I sit in when I do my. Nfl Live segments sportscenter segments. Whatever it may be sportscenter specials whatever it is Through glow point with this chair. What's why do with Dr Ian Bell Show? I do sitting in this chair. I do the podcast sitting in this chair. This is the same room same. Probably looking in the camera. I won't have the ability to communicate through hand signals. I contact and I got something. I want to comment after you do. I want to jump in here. That'll be different now. We talked about how to has been affected by everything that's been happening with pandemic. Are there any other players notable players you think might see their draft status change because this hasn't been business as usual? I think some of the combine guys didn't run it like a cameron dance lower corner from Mississippi state ran for six four but nice to try to run a four five four Which I think he probably could have a now. Those are things teams will evaluate. How they played jared Pinkney Vanderbilt never productive year. They had new coordinator. He didn't get the ball then. He ran slower-than-expected at the combine. Those are the types of things guys at didn't run to combine. We're going to run it their pro day. Don't even have a time one them. Okay Jay Hamblur you know. He's fast he was going to run his denser. Those things mean a May factor in just a little bit. They always say the eye in the sky never lies her back forty years ago. The eye in the sky never lies and that's looking at football players with the pads on one game day and if they play great and that's why we always have late round steals and undrafted free agents who make it because they're the football players that people got down one because they didn't test well and guys who go earlier times the guys who tests well but didn't play great but they all come together once they're in the NFL at all when we coach them up. We'll get all that talent to really prosper and it all comes all come front and center. Once they're with us. That's why those guys go early and as I said the the overachievers productive guys who don't test well way push way down. Don't worry about those that stop watch as much. Don't worry about those computer numbers as much. Worry about how guys play well along those lines in the teams who can find those undrafted gems and maybe lean more on the tape. What sort of teams do you think will actually benefit from this? Well I think the teams that everybody to even the bengals a lot of coaches involved in their evaluations with the time element being the way it was. I think a lot of things said well. They didn't want to push back because they felt like teams could catch up. So the the April Twenty Three Rd. Minute gives everybody a chance no matter how you do it. If you're scouting heavy scout heavy or your coach heavy in terms of who really factors into your final decision making and all the teams are different. Some value the opinion of assistant coaches more than others and the personnel people. But I think the teams that you see that are picking at the end of the draft made to look at look at all those teams if you see the perennial winners at the end. They're there for a reason and I was looking at this. Did you notice that there aren't any running backs on those teams went in the first round? There's a go from the from the eighteen one down and you see a first round running backs with those teams now with actually drafted them. Ingram wasn't drafted by the Ravens. So again it wasn't a first L. The first round running backs nurses are up there in Trenton early. So again that's why we say why is the only one running back on the go and maybe not until the end of the first round is for that reason. Why are most of the running backs with different teams even todd? Gurley now with Atlanta from just a few years ago. It's for that reason so again. That's why said I wouldn't draft running back in round. One at the grade was equal to the back. Fine but this year may not you know maybe the Andrea Swift out of Georgia may be. Jk Dobbins Ohio. St Louis Riddick thanks. Jonathan Taylor from Wisconsin could be but I think at the end of Thursday one running back. We'll be taken in round one. Twelve one exception for a good team is my Seattle seahawks. Who as you remember? Took her shod penny in the first round in two thousand eighteen. I'll give you a spoiler. Wasn't key Guy. Though that will don't give you for a spoiler for the seahawks they're going to trade down our trade out of the first round always always well. Let me ask you about your history you root for Baltimore. Would you like to see them do well? I would like to see them. Fixed the inside linebacker position. And they can with you there. Kenneth Murray Oklahoma Patrick Queen from Lsu. I would like to see them get into an interior presence center guard with Marshall Yonder retiring and Matt Score Injury and macari did a nice job free agent. Fine for Erica. Kelly find those guys all the time they could undrafted but a little bit more of an interior presence there along the line another receiver. Miles Boykin needs to step up this year. Hollywood you know what you're getting there. If he can stay healthy he's a heck of a player but miles boykin a key. I think they'll draft to receive redress another Young Defensive Lineman you've got delays Campbell and Derek Wolfe with Brandon Williams Benita a younger guy there and other secondary set a tight end Senate running back They're in good shape kicking game. Everything they are but linebacker Is the key. Utah history with the seahawks trading out. The Ravens had a great history of drafting pass. Rushers Layton draft that Area Smith Personnel mcphee. Matthew Jude on. So they will always take a chance late on somebody that slide through the cracks that can get after the quarterback. Now I just have one last question for you amidst everything going on. It's not always easy for us to get our usual supplies from the grocery store. Have you been able to get your Pumpkin Pie for breakfast? Here's the story main. My Wife Beautiful Life Kim. Who does everything for everything she makes everything happen? She always wanted me to have pumpkin pie. Cheap baked that I would actually never did refuse because I like the grocery store. Pumpkin pies the Safeway Pumpkin Pie. Okay they are my favorite. That's why I don't need to make anything. I love this so if you make them at eating it and I did well. She has been making these Pumpkin pies and they have been extraordinary. Best Pumpkin Pie I've ever had. And so what an idiot I've been. I've been married thirty one years mean and finally a meeting Kim Kuypers Pumpkin pies. Which are the best? You'll ever WANNA eat? Kim Kuyper truly the draft winter. Put Up with me for all these years. She's saint thanks so much mail bags you take care coming up. What really separates to tongue lower from the other quarterbacks in this year's draft and the NFL period so you just heard us talk about to a Tango Loa with Mel Kiper Junior. There's been a lot of attention on his health after his season ending hip injury but our Kevin Van Valkenburgh wrote a piece. That focused on another unique facet of to his body. His left Handedness Kevin. How rare is it to be a lefty quarterback these days these days? It's almost unheard of there. Hasn't been a left. Handed quarterback eason backup since two thousand sixteen when Kellen Moore started a few games for the cowboys and then basically since that no left-hander has been able to catch on in the NFL which is kind of weird. It almost defies statistical anomalies. So it's been very rare recently but there are plenty of famous left handed quarterbacks in NFL. History Steve Young Mark Ranil. What's been going on in recent years when I went to the combine this year. I asked pretty much every. Gm coach I could find ended up getting twenty five of different teams and what they all kind of said is. We don't really know the answer. A lot of 'em speculate that maybe baseball is stealing a lot of them. But it's really hard to find like concrete examples of someone who was a good high school left handed quarterback and then completely decided you know what I'm GonNa go into baseball because I can be a middle reliever I can have a longer career. I could be a starter Clayton. Kershaw make big money. So I think what's people are starting to wonder as maybe are left getting phase out even before they get a chance to play. Quarterback is like a teenager. Why might that be like what is so unusual about throwing with Lebanon? I think what's probably the most likely? Surfing is the football coaches are so in love with details in routine and sort of sticking with what they know that they simply don't WanNa flip all their formations. Think about like every single time you draw back you have to protect a quarterback's blindside if you're completely having to flip that With every single. Play thinking like okay. Where might the bullets come? Where might the pressure come from? Where the quarterback can't see it that might make you have to rethink a lot of different kinds of favorite plays and just coaches are so kind of militaristic in specific about the stuff that they like that even little subtle flips. They might decide. I just don't WanNa do that. I'm not going to bother coaching. Lefty one of the craziest parts in your story. You spoke with Steve Young. He said that his dad actually tried to train the left hand in this out of him by tying his left hand behind his back. Did he do that to to us? As he always been a lefty people tried to convert him to right handedness. You know what's interesting about to that? His Dad actually too is a naturally a right handed player and he does a pretty much everything else. He Plays Golf. Right handed shoots a basketball writing entity eats radi ended but his dad decided for whatever reason that he wanted him to be a lefty and so he just forced him over and over and over again to throw lefty so it's kind of the opposite of what young through right where his dad tried to make him. A righty just because being left handed back then. There was sort of this stigma attached to it and to is the opposite at so when I told Steve Young that he was almost kind of like flabbergasted he couldn't believe it because he sort of said you know there's so much kind of like a great touch into his lefty throwing ability that I just don't believe it. I often have to convince yourself that there's some left handedness in his DNA. Is there any chance? And all that. This impacts is draft stock. Or maybe how coaches look at him. You know coach will admit it and I think that what most of them sort of feel like is. Hey like if you bring me a great left-hander. I'm happy to coach him. And so I think that well maybe back. In the day some coaches would have decided like tiebreaker. You know there's a fierce around kid. There's two quarterbacks that we're kind of looking at with go with the righty. Instead of going with the lefty because you know that just kind of decreases some of the variables here but with someone as good as to. I think they're just going to say you know what there's plenty of evidence that left handedness Can Work in the NFL. Whether it's Burnell or Michael Vick or Steve Young or even back to Kenny Stabler. You also mentioned your piece that while left. Handedness is increasingly rare in football. Six of the past twelve presidents have been left handed. Kevin explain this to me. It's crazy it is crazy. It's one of the kind of more interesting presidential trivia questions right like it's something that some left-handed people feel like maybe there's something about being left handed that makes you sort of more creative or more analytical or something that makes you kind of. I kind of wonder that maybe the things that make you left handed naturally make you less interested in football. That's kind of one of the more unknowable things. But certainly something that even Steve Young when I posed that question to him was like you know. Maybe that's true. Maybe football's driving away. Some of our most creative people Kevin. Are you left handed? I'm not me neither? I guess we're just not creative for special. But we could be quarterbacks you could totally get some seven on thousands and tear it up all right. Thanks so much buddy. I mean times and this has been ESPN daily. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

NFL Justin Herbert football Jordan Guru Mel kiper ESPN Steve Young Miami Patrick Mahomes Jerry Judy chargers Jalen Isaiah Simmons Lsu Cincinnati Marvin Harrison Kevin Van Valkenburgh Jonathan Taylor Kenny Stabler Miami Dolphins
LedgerX on the Reasons to Trade Bitcoin Options - Ep.130

Unchained

1:03:25 hr | 1 year ago

LedgerX on the Reasons to Trade Bitcoin Options - Ep.130

"Hi everyone welcome to unchain your no hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host Laura Shit. I've been doing a survey in it's come to my attention. Not Not all of you know that I have another podcast. It's shorter news year and comes out Fridays and has called unconfirmed confirmed. If you haven't taken a listen yet go check it out and particularly recommend my recent interview with Peter Van Valkenburgh Point Center on Congress's hearings about libra libra also if you're making vacation plans consider the weekend retreat teaching with Melton Mirrors of coin shares and Jolla Jovan pooja a future perfect ventures. It'll be at the beautiful Omega Institute in Rhinebeck New York from September twentieth to the twenty second be sure to check out the show notes for the link to sign up grow your crypto and earn up to eight percent per year with crypto dot com. It's the place to buy over forty coins at truecar with no fees and no markups download the CRYPTO DOT COM APP today. Cracking is the best exchange in the world for buying and selling digital assets it has the tightest security deep liquidity and agreed leafy structure with no minimum or hidden fees whether you're looking for a simple Fiat on ramp or leveraged options-trading cracking is the place for you cypher trees cutting edge cryptocurrency intelligence Howard anti money laundry blockchain analytics and threat Intel leading exchanges virtual currency businesses bakes and regulators themselves use cypher trees to comply with regulation and to monitor compliance. My guess for today is do do you think show co founder and Chief Operating Officer and Chief Risk Officer for ledger axe locum Judaica. Thanks for having me Laura. Let your ex reached a major era milestone recently a first for the crypto space. Why don't you tell the listeners what that is sure so lead your ex we recently received a license that allows us to open up our institutional platform to retail investors <hes> and then more exciting we recently actually launched it to retail investors so retail investors investors can have access to the same odd driven products and options that the Ledger X. Institutional Customer Base <hes> has been trading for almost two years now and why don't you elaborate on that like what is it that letter X. has been doing for the last few years we are a U._S.? Federally regulated by the C._F._C._C. Exchange clearinghouse and what that really means is that we have a platform that allows people to come in trade a wide variety of products from <hes> Bitcoin to bitcoin options <hes> and other sorts of swaps and then the clearinghouse is the part that guarantees the trade to give the customers on the safety and security of <hes> of knowing that the traits will settle in a regulated manner and so we launched that to institutional customers in October twenty seventeen <hes> we were restricted in terms of our license to only allow that to access to institutions <hes> but we had worked with the regulators <hes> over the last maybe six to nine months to get a new license and really be able to expand that offering so that any customer can have access to this highly regulated related platform for <hes> getting into out of <hes> Bitcoin and I think that's really a key part of our products is that we touch both Fiat and Bitcoin so customers can buy a call option receive actual bitcoin or by a swap and received Bitcoin <hes> so that's an important element that we usually call physically settled derivatives does an for so long space the rallying cry has been Hodel or huddle so why is it that someone would want to buy a derivative of bitcoin rather than Bitcoin itself so derivatives and options in particular allow a wide range of exposures and trades that that people can do that can really enhance <hes> long positions that they have already so. Let's say somebody is long bitcoin and they do WANNA hold but they're not earning any yield or return on their bitcoin they can use options to <hes> to essentially earn some implied yield and <hes> and generate some return <hes> similarly utterly if people want to get levered exposure on the long side so they can buy call options instead of buying options themselves minister. I think what we see at led Iraq's is <hes> <hes> a wide range of customers and customer base coming into trade options <hes> for a whole bunch of different reasons. I mean this is why I think options options in particular are not zero sum because especially if you deal on the physical on they touch in the world outside of the <hes> of just a single trade and <hes> and both sides can really benefit it depending on their specific considerations and constraints. Why don't we walk through some of those examples because they feel like just talking about it in the abstract can be kind hard to wrap your mind around but what's let's just start with a call option? I just define what that is and then walk me through why someone would per you know would choose to buy a call option so the the standard academic definition of an option is that it is the right but but not the obligation to purchase <hes> in underlying we'll call it bitcoin here at a certain price on a certain date in the future and I think the <hes> the way that I like to think about options as opposed to just <hes> spot or Bitcoin is really the the last part part of that definition the two components that you do not get if you're just buying or selling bitcoin and that is a strike price and expiration date so if we want to just just buy or sell bitcoin right now. Let's ten thousand dollars <hes> I can buy it at ten thousand or can sell it at ten thousand but if I want to trade a call option will now there's a much wider range of <hes> traits that I can do so for example <hes> I can take a call option that expires December two thousand nineteen so December of this year <hes> with a twenty five thousand dollar strike price <hes> and this option on lead rex is around on five hundred dollars right now so if I am a maybe I'm a long holder or maybe I am somebody new to Bitcoin that wants to get <hes> upside upside exposure but I might be a little bit worried about having as much capital at risk if I buy Bitcoin at ten thousand and I know that it can go down to in seven thousand six thousand just because it is a volatile asset I might instead decide to buy a call option for five hundred dollars on the most I could lose that five one hundred dollars and if <hes> if Bitcoin does rally significantly on then I can make <hes> essentially have that upside <hes> exposure leisure and <hes> and still make money with the big rally yeah. I saw an interview that Ari Paul did with C._N._B._C. When he had purchased call options for <hes> Fifty K. Bitcoin by the end of two thousand eighteen this was in and he had purchased them. I guess in December twenty two thousand seventeen and the C._N._B._C. inkers were very confused like why would you do this and he was like look I view it as a way of because because he he runs blocked our capital one of the crypto funds he he was like I view it as a way of being able to capture upside if bitcoin does go go up and yet during this time when maybe there's volatility and maybe <hes> the price could could drop you know like eighty percent or whatever that I would be able to to hold fewer bitcoins on my balance sheet and keep my at the assets of my l._p.'s from you know from dropping that eighty percent or whatever it might be and <hes> you know he was just like this is a way to to sort of like limit the downside exposure and I think he only paid thirty six hundred for that and so you know it's a nominal amount for for the size of his fund and yet you know without time when Bitcoin was twenty thousand and he was like okay. Is this bubble as it not. He didn't know he thought okay if it's higher higher than to <hes> Fifty K. at the end of <hes> twenty eighteen you know I'd like to to make sure I I have. I have that in my fund all right so now. Let's do the opposite. Let's an also let's clarify one other thing. which is I think the and correct me if I'm wrong I think that normally people use call options options for those kinds of bats where they expect that or not that they expect but they want to <hes> ride any trends upwards right like all options are generally unruly for prices that are higher than what it's currently trading? Is that correct that's correct yes in terms of the in terms of the contracts that people typically trade for call options. It's with higher strike prices okay so now. Let's talk about a put option. What is that again you know define it and then walk me through <hes> why someone might prefer to buy a bitcoin put option over bitcoin so a put option is to use the academic definition again the right but not the obligation in to sell bitcoin at a certain price on a certain date in the future and so put options are very often used for people almost musk's insurance <hes> where they're using them to protect their downside so <hes> it could be maybe if it's you know if we're talking about a fund or her <hes> even an individual that has bitcoin and they are a little bit worried? Maybe <hes> about some short term decline or <hes> you know or some of the headline risks that could cause Bitcoin to fall significantly. They might buy a <hes>. You know maybe a an eight thousand strike put <music> option and so what they're doing is they're <hes> buying insurance so that if something does happen and <hes> bitcoin goes to six thousand and will now they have the right to sell bitcoin at eight thousand and so they <hes> could have protected their position in a way and the benefit of the put option similar to <hes> a call option is that you'll never lose more than you pay for the option no so I gave the example of Ari three who running a Crypto Fund what are some other examples of the kinds of people who buy these options and you know why well I I think the actually the the Crypto Fund is an interesting example that ties in <hes> puts an calls because I think the Ari example is one that shows news how unintuitive Louis <hes> you know buying call options which is extensively a bullish very positive type of trade can actually when you tie in the world world outside of it can actually be slightly bearish in a way if the alternative is essentially sizing down a <hes> a bitcoin position mission and then just having some levered upside calls <hes> in keystone and you get benchmarked bitcoin. You don't WanNa miss out on the rally. I'm sitting funds used both puts and calls for for a wide variety of <hes> trading around their positions. I think we've seen in volatile environments. We tend to see more <hes> hedging particularly particularly <hes>. If people aren't let's say they're selling options and can capture some of the volatility premium and then in low volatility environments like last <hes> last year maybe July August <hes> we see both <hes> trading shops as well as companies even <hes> using options as a way to <hes> <hes> find more interesting trading opportunities when they don't think there's enough opportunity in just trading bitcoin itself but I think one of the really key deep pieces of the participant base for us <hes> our customers like miners and individuals who are long holders you know may have been in Bitcoin for a while or maybe recently and the reason that those are crucial is because they touched the physical you know <hes> minors obviously touched the physical they dealing it every day and so they're the reason that we found it so important that we have to deal on the physical in order to provide them with these <hes> hedging instruments. That's it actually makes sense for them an elaborate on that like why in this is actually something I was wondering too so who in contrast the bitcoin futures contracts that trades on C._M._e.. Is What's called cash suttles meaning that at the end of the trade instead of getting the coin back you get like the dollar equivalent of of what the <hes> the value of that trade <hes> so for for a minor just describe why that's a bad thing for them like like why they would prefer something physically settled so miners I have <hes> you can almost think of them like <hes> like similar to to gold for example but so bitcoin miners they invest dollars in their infrastructure and then they earn a fixed number of bitcoin and so that Bitcoin <hes> is you know it's obviously same number of bitcoin that they earn in the the mining reward but the price of it <hes> as denominated in dollars fluctuates and so they're exposed to the <hes> price risk of U._S.. Dollar versus Bitcoin and so the cleanest hedge for a minor to hedge that is actually to <hes> be able to take the physical bitcoin that they have to pledge it as collateral or if they're just going to sell it to sell it and then to earn dollars back as opposed to if they had to essentially take their bitcoin converted two dollars and then use that dollar for a hedge and then wait for that hedge to to settle for to cash so it suits suits both their price risk. It's a much cleaner hedge because it's exactly the price that they face and then it suits their operations because they have bitcoin and they're very comfortable sending Bitcoin as collateral which is I really wouldn't <hes> under appreciate that point that when you deal in the physical and accepting Bitcoin as a form of collateral is hugely powerful <hes> because we see that Ledger X. Wchs anyone can send it twenty four seven three sixty five outside of any banking windows. Let's talk a little bit more about this. You know physically settled settled aspect. So how does it work exactly I when I decided to <hes> buy or sell a a bitcoin in call <hes> let's say the twenty five thousand shy call option <hes> purchase it for five hundred dollars so you pay five hundred dollars today and then when it expires in December amber if it's in the money so let's say Bitcoin is up thirty thousand then you'll purchase Bitcoin for twenty five thousand dollars so you'll pay twenty five thousand dollars and you'll see Steve Bitcoin and then for the person on the other end of that trade like how how do you ensure that you'll have the bitcoin that you can deliver Yep. That's exactly what we <hes>. That's really what we do as a as a central clearing house so at the time <hes> that the seller does takes the other side of the trade trade <hes> they collect five hundred dollars today and they're posting one Bitcoin with Ledger Wrecks and Ledger X. holds that bitcoin until the maturity so that we can guarantee that if you decide to exercise your your call option that we have the bitcoin and how do you store all those bitcoins. Do you put them in some some kind of cold storage that only you control that you know at the time the contract ends. You're the one who decides where the Bitcoin goes or is it like some kind wean of multi where like the parties have to sign off or how does that part work. We have to have ultimate control over it. That's the only way that we can accept did as a form of collateral okay and I'm assuming it's is it in cold storage. We don't go into too much detail publicly about and how exactly we do it. Okay okay yeah well that makes sense. <hes> so why is is it died that letter decided to focus on derivatives so it's kind of twofold one is that I come from from an options background and I really do believe that options are a very important piece of the development of a market that you know that is a has elements of being a financial instrument and we saw you know companies that were <hes> in the space that we're doing real producing real businesses <hes> mm consumer facing merchant facing using bitcoin remittances things like that and in the course of their business what they were doing is they were warehousing <hes> bitcoin on their balance sheet in order to insulate their and customer from the price volatility risk and so we kinda thought one examples that if they had had better tools to be able to hedge the risk on their balance sheet similar to how large oil producers do than they could scale their businesses <hes> and A._M.. Provide you more of these use cases for Bitcoin to other people and so without that would be good for the ecosystem <hes> in that these could be used a wide variety of ways but there's another element which is that <hes> we knew it was a very deliberate approach coach from a regulatory point of view <hes> because we didn't want to go down the path of the state by state licenses <hes> we knew that the federal path was going to be harder <hes> but we wanted just one federal regulator <hes> that was a regulator that most people would be familiar with and that would have preemption <hes> over the states and when you say that <hes> you wanted to avoid having a goes deep by steed of that's basically the process that companies like coin as it like some of the the the regular spot exchanges have had to go through Assad the kind of company that has to do that exactly yes an amongst some of the other exchanges working in crypto derivatives like backed and era sex. They're focused on futures. Why is your focus a little bit more an options? What what you know I think the <hes> I think ultimately a lot of other people will eventually get to two options as well <hes> for us? It's what we see. In particular. <hes> is the because bitcoin is so volatile <hes> options present opportunity that you can't really we get from a linear instrument and so some of these cases when we talk about earning yield off of Bitcoin by selling call options <hes> that's unique because of bitcoins volatility and options are really I think the only way to up to both capture the volatility as well as <hes> to help dampen the volatility over time yeah and just to explain that a little bit more for listeners <hes> when she talks about yield. I think when you're talking about yield yeah. I think what you're referring to is that example of a minor can kind of put up a bit like they can. I think it's purchase a call option. I guess yes it would be and then they earn the price at the buyer is paying for that call option so let's say they earn like five hundred dollars for putting up that bitcoin clean and then <hes> and then later on if <hes> the <hes> contract has purchased at least they've sold the the Bitcoin for higher than than what it was at the time that the the call option was made Su Su Glitzy Bitcoin is ten thousand dollars now and they do dot and then they earn the five hundred dollars <hes> but then leader if you know the the price does go above whatever the strike prices then at least they they haven't had to sell the Bitcoin for ten thousand you know they sold it for like fifteen thousand or whatever in the future is that is that what you mean there was something about this where like when I learned about it reminded me a little bit of like maker Dow and how people put up as collateral and get di which is pegged to U._S.. Dollars in the meantime. I'm not super familiar maker dial but <hes> in the case of what you were saying for the <hes> the call options that's correct so a minor would a minor would sell a call option. They would collect five hundred dollars today I for that twenty five thousand dollar strike and then if when at expiration Bitcoin is at <hes> above twenty five thousand they'll sell Bitcoin for twenty five thousand and <hes> which they might prefer to if they had to sell some of their bitcoin today at ten thousand and then if Bitcoin's below twenty five thousand than they just get their bitcoin back <hes> <hes> and they can do that trade again and so they can essentially earn <hes> that's five hundred dollars over a five month period one other wave at I wanted to ask you about earlier with the futures. You know I seem to just with my question. It's sort of felt like it was to me. <hes> <unk> <hes> that it would be preferable to me to receive you know the to have physically settled <hes> contract where earlier I am receiving bitcoin back simply because it's so volatile it would be like Oh. Maybe if I did a trade but then later I might realize that like a day later I would have gotten off more money for it or something. Do you not like if if it for settling in dollars as opposed to bitcoin but then another thing was tied died <hes> just from the purchasers perspective they also have the flexibility of like whether or not to to actually we buy on expiration day like as far as I understand. Maybe I'm wrong <hes> yeah so yeah so that also gives the the purchaser more flexibility so why so it just feels like <hes> cash-settled derivatives are always going to be superior. Sorry opposite physically settled derivatives will always be superior cash settles. Is that correct Yep I think so. I think that's absolutely correct okay all right well. That's why we're yeah and I think that you know the reason that I think some people go down. The route of cash settled is because it is easier. It's much easier to get to launch launch because it's easier from a regulatory point of view because the regulators are already comfortable with holding cash and <hes> to some degree settling to cash though arguably settling to to cash in this market as you alluded to not <hes> very prudent but B I think especially especially in a market like bitcoin where the physical is so oh easy to move you know <hes> physical commodities in general are very very important markets and that's coming from markets where it's actually difficult to store and move the physical commodity but bitcoin. Has You know has that in spades ray I think it was reading one of your blog posts or something and you talked talked about how it's not like you have to deliver a barrel of crude at the end of the train all right so let's talk a little bit more into Omni then so that you know this is the platform where both retail and institutional customers can actually interact in the Siem marketplace before launching Omni. I think customers on your platform needed to have a minimum of ten million dollars in assets and now there's actually no networth requirement. If I'm if correct me if I'm wrong about any of this <hes> so just one thing that made me wonder is is it desirable from a retail perspective to have the entity that you're training with be an institution like is there some way they could be at a disadvantage because they don't have the same tools or does that really not apply here. I think in general you know an olive struck doc from even a little bit because I come from the high-frequency trading background <hes> which is you know obviously gets a lot of these types of questions and I think in general having institutions is much much better for retail. Liquidity institutions are <hes> they're out there on multiple platforms hedging very efficiently and so that just provides it's better and better pricing for retail. What price or index are you guys using to determine whether or not though the price actually hits the a strike price for any specific contract because as we've seen the cryptos fees has a lot of fake training and their flash crashes and we even I saw a apparently I I saw on twitter at least I did not look into this myself but it from a fairly credible source that it looks like there might have been people who were manipulating manipulating prices on bit stamp in order to profit on bit mix so how can you guys determine whether or not appraisals legitimate and isn't being manipulated the prophets on letter X. Yet? I mean it's a huge it's a huge issue with <hes> with spot markets and with overseas exchanges and outside of surveilling our own markets. I'm the beauty of our products. is we go back to that. Example of you bought a call option for five hundred dollars on the twenty five thousand dollar strike price. When a expiration comes you get to decide if you want to exercise that option almond pay twenty five thousand dollars to buy Bitcoin so all ledger X. does is we just do the delivery of the trade but we don't make any determination as to whether that option is in the money or essentially whether Bitcoin is above twenty five thousand or below we leave leave that up to whoever the long holder is and so that way they can factor in <hes> different exchanges different things they see and <hes> and make the determination determination that they think is appropriate? Oh okay wow that's that's pretty genius and probably a load off your back work and leisure XS saying that it will never charge any fees for trades so if that's the case. How do you make money so I think <hes> Paul went into this a little bit on one of his <hes> blog post so for Omni there are no fees <hes> and then for the institutions we charge on the on their side <hes> for <hes> essentially a maker of the Omni has no side <unk> no fees and taking and so that's you know we make the money off the institutions and as Paul alluded to the institutions ends on the professional traders price it in any way and so <hes> it's Kinda part of our way to just keep up the fee schedules berry transparent <hes> the price that you pay is <hes> is what you're getting for it <hes> and not having <hes> an on the institutional side they know exactly what they're paying and they price it and so we make it on that outside and you have a wait list of about three thousand people I believe so why why is there a wait list at all well? I mean so for us as we work through adding users there's a whole host of operational and regulatory <hes> <hes> you know additional items that we just WanNa make sure we get completely right. <hes> I think one of the things that we get really good feedback on for <hes>. The Ledger Institutional Channel Platform is that people have had just a really good experience and so we WanNa make sure that as customers come on everyone on all of our stakeholders from the customer all all the way down to the regulators and the banks are also continued to be very happy with the lead treks experience and you launch with fifteen institutions in two thousand seventeen. How many institutions do you have on your platform? Now it's about two hundred and fifty now and I saw that Paul said recently an interview interview on Cheddar that the institutional market has been slower to materialize and that Ledger X. thinks the opportunity is in the retail market. Why don't you guys think that in what does the size of the opportunity look like so I think for us from I kind of put institutional into context on as you mentioned our requirements are around ten million dollars or more in assets and so we would definitely see significant interest in <hes> maybe the smaller size institutions but for what people traditionally refer to as financial institutions getting to the very very large <hes> you know hedge funds and investment banks? I think bitcoins joins market cap is still not large enough for the opportunity to be meaningful to them. You know even at two hundred billion <hes> that's just the size of stock really <hes> A. and so it's not really feasible for them to devote a whole bunch of resources for a trading desk for something like this when it is still pretty small and opportunity and when they can kind of weight and then throw more <unk> sources added later when it's larger I'm so we see <hes> the opportunity on the other end of the spectrum but that said you know two hundred billion <hes> in market cap is still a a lot. That's really big to a small company like I'm like ledger into to some of our customers and so <hes> we're seeing we had record a second quarter. We're seeing a ton of demand that is really meaningful to us and when you say record second-quarter what was the volume is Receive Authoritative Crypto aml reports quarterly W._W._w.. DOT CYPHER TRACE DOT com slash keep crypto clean. 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You can earn up to eight percent per year on D. T. H.. X. R._P._I.. And more will you make a deposit into the one month three month or flexible terms. You just have to deposit your crypto to begin interests are paid out weekly and immediately really available for youths start earning through the CRYPTO DOT COM APP available on the APP store and Google play back to my conversation with Judaica Chow of Letcher your acts so something I was curious about was what would happen if a bitcoin heart fork happened during the period of a contract like let's say that you had had these physically settled contracts trading on August first 2017 like who would have kept the bitcoin cash that resulted it from bitcoin set where you in your possession at that time or like for any airdrops or anything like that. How how do you guys handle that yes? That's a great question <hes> so we have a <hes> posted es- especially at around the time when there are a lot of hard forks <hes> our general approach to our Hartford Policy <hes> the short answer Sir is that there is no clear answer because it really does depend on each fork on depends on our ability to <hes> to it depends on the fourth coin depends hands on if <hes> if that's traded on an exchange it depends if that has regulatory <hes> implications as well like if somebody forks bitcoin bitcoin into something that resembles a security on it depends on the security of the the fourth coin itself so you know it is in general <hes> as a centralized custodian stowed the value <unk> should crew to our participants but in each case I believe there was a fork a specific fork that we actually gave our specific guidance on honor that should be somewhere on our website but we really have to take a case by case at this point so let's talk about something else. That's kind of unique to this space switches that you guys have a bitcoin having contract in which people can trade contracts that I guess are like sort of basically bets on what on the one I can't even speak today when the next having will be and for people who aren't aware of what having is it's when the block rewards which is the number of new coins that are minted by the software every ten minutes. That's when those rewards will be cut in half sue right now it's twelve point five bitcoin set of released every ten minutes and at some point next year at like in the spring early summer it's going to be six point two five so describe for for listeners how this <music> bitcoin having contract works yeah. It's it's it's a pretty as you can imagine it's pretty straightforward <hes> contracts on <hes> when the happening curse so it's <hes> it pays off if having occurs before a certain date the contract pays off and then if it doesn't it ends up zero so it's a binary contract in that Atlay and who is trading contract and why would they why would they want to bet on that. How does that help them well so we can always come back to the case <hes> of <hes> of minors for example who have obvious exposure to the happening <hes> and then you know all other participants I mean I think some people sort of look at the happening? Thing is <hes> possibly a catalyst for for bitcoin price appreciation based on what's happened it happened at previous happenings <hes> as well as just you know if there's a view that as the mining reward goes down transaction fees go up a lot of both businesses and individuals and companies have exposure to the happening and so being able to due to hedge that exposure you know in in a pretty direct way hedging when it will happen is important to customers and suggest Suzanne from the mindset of a minor. It's a little bit lake okay if the block reward gets cut earlier than I expected acted in my revenue goes down earlier than I expected then essentially I can make a little bit of money that Ah you know off this off. This contract is sort of why they're purchasing it yep exactly and so we would be exactly that so so if the you know let's say <hes> it happens like a month or two earlier than the contract pays out <hes> which would hopefully offset some of the loss from the <hes> the reward going down sooner than expected and so this having contract is based on the technicals of the network. What are some other examples of types of contracts? You could imagine watching that are also unique to crypto assets that you know 'cause 'cause like this contract. You couldn't have this in a normal <hes> in traditional financial services right like this is something the unique to the crypto asset space so are there other examples of kind of contracts. You guys could imagine offering that are related to technicals have networks well well. I think the <hes> I think something that settles to the difficulty is a very intriguing contract <hes> from my point of view and we've kind of actually already designed the specifications and what's great is we talked a little bit about <hes> the susceptibility to manipulation when it comes to spot exchanges and cash shuttle contracts and I think op physically settled or obviously a lot better because as you mentioned you just get the Bitcoin you don't have that exposure but <hes> I mean you take a contract that suttles the difficulty of a particular block and that's a nearly impossible to manipulate so it's a super clean settlement and I think it's something that people would both again have exposure to like if you're a minor but also be interested in speculating on <hes> so I think difficulty contracts and then <hes> I think in the future transaction fee contracts as well all sounds interesting. I I kind of love this. I think this is fascinating and it I don't know at a certain point. It gets kind of creative and fun fun. I think so I look forward to seeing you guys. Do another contract that you guys recently introduced was one for a one hundred thousand dollars Bitcoin by December twenty twenty and I saw in the article on this the it was in Bloomberg that there was a demand for such a contract from institutional customers with assets between ten million and one billion and so is that how you decide on which contracts to introduce like people sort of make requests in you see kind of what there's demand for or how do you and decide we list the contracts we usually do it in conjunction with where we see both direct customer requests and in demand <hes> as well as where customers trade so you know for example <hes> one of the things that surprised me a little bit when we launched Ledger accidents we started started scaling it with the institutions was that people had much longer dated demand than I initially thought <hes> I thought it was going to be more that people would want to trade one to three month. Contracts because bitcoin was so volatile that nobody really knew where is going to be a lot further out but <hes> we're actually seeing the opposite I think most of not most but a large large portion of our open interest is in December twenty twenty <hes> June twenty twenty and so <hes> we kind of look at some of those patterns turns and that helps inform listen contracts that <hes> that people request that's interesting. I wonder if it's sort of like you know the fact that no that would make I guess because you just opened a retail investors. I was GONNA say that may be the sort of is one way in which kind kind of this retail market differs from institutional but that's not entirely true one other thing though that I did want to mention <hes> in not that this is is investment advice <hes> but when I read that I couldn't help but think about how in a recent episode Dan Moorhead of Pantera mentioned that I <hes> I guess his firm had mapped out bitcoins price logarithmically over time and then projected out that by the end of think it was twenty twenty yeah that Bitcoin bitcoin would hit one hundred twenty two thousand sit when I saw that contract I was just reminded me of that contract or of his statement and I thought okay well. I guess we'll we'll see alright so one other thing I wanted to ask about this with CBO's stopped listing bitcoin futures contracts in March search and I notice that they had pretty small volume compared to C._M._e.. <hes> in December their volume was about a quarter million or a little bit less but it had actually wants been as high as about two billion <hes> at the beginning of two thousand eighteen Su. Are there any lessons that you guys are trying to draw or can Sandra from how popular this or how unpopular this contract eventually became not really. I mean we to be honest. I didn't follow it too you too closely but I think <hes> it you know perhaps validated some of the positions that we took <hes> in the past about the focus on you know on physical physical settlement <hes> but no we've been really focused on on ledger acts in our participants and just making sure that we have <hes> a great product that <hes> that are participants like using using so I noticed that Ledger X. has said before that you guys have intentionally decided not to offer products or services that would require require regulation by the S._e._C.. Why not well being regulated is no joke? It's I think we are such an interesting company company because we're a startup but we are the licenses that we have <hes> we are held to the exact same standards as a forty billion dollar companies and and so <hes> I think the regulation is necessary for what we want to do and for providing <hes> a safe platform to our customers but but I don't think we can conceivably <hes> run a small business like this having to deal with <hes> another set of federal regulations. Oh but was there a reason why you preferred the C._F._T._c. over the S._e._C.. <hes> it was more that we <hes> we went down the path because as we were really focused on Bitcoin I think some of the S._e._C. suffer more think for people who are doing. I suppose tokens but I think more A._T._S. in in particular <hes> but in the early days we just took a bet that bitcoin would be a commodity almond fall into the jurisdiction so I know that <hes> you guys needed to get to licenses from the C._F._T._C.. Can you describe what those two were and what those enable you to do so we actually so we have three licenses now so we okay yeah so brief brief history so we had to in July two thousand seventeen. We got our first two so we have the swap execution facility which is the institutional exchange license <hes> and then we got the derivatives clearing organization which is the clearinghouse in so that's the <hes> that's the one that allows us to custody dollars to custody Bitcoin <hes> that's where that's how we kind of guarantee all the trades and hold the cloud to settlement <hes> <hes> and then but the the swap execution facility is what limited us from not being able to <hes> to touch retail so the third license that we applied for and got was designated aided contract market which allows us to do futures and retail <hes> and so we at this point <hes> we're only really operating the <hes> the designated need contract market and the jury was clearing organization because everybody can trade on on both of those <hes> but we we still have the third license because we haven't gotten rid of it it yet I saw that a few years ago you guys submitted a public comment to the New York State Department of Financial Services requesting that exclude clued companies subject to the Commodities Exchange Act from the bit license but they they did not create that exemption you requested. Do you guys need to apply for a bit license Cincinnati. So do you plan to do so. No so this is a conversation we've actually had with <hes> with the C._d._C. and with <hes> an with D._F._S.. So we here this is where having the <hes> the federal license really does come in handy because the federal regulators are of the view that they have on preemption over state licenses and I also noticed that you're open to Singapore customers in addition a U._S.. Customers soon why is Singapore the other jurisdiction that leads REX's excess available in we had as we started looking at other areas to expand to we really started with the <hes> the regulators that had a a good relationships with the U._S.. Regulators particularly the F._T._C. and so <hes> we were able Struggled to get banking relationships and <hes> find banks that were comfortable with you know with the crypto space the fact that we were focused on institutions was definitely something something that we found <hes> made them a lot more comfortable but now <hes> ledger xs both where proven I think people are more familiar with us in the the regulator the safety nice to see and then there's banks that are much more comfortable with crypto and so now I think it's not as not as big a deal provided that you have the right regulatory oversight site all right well. Let's hope for a lot of these startups out there that I think <hes> some of them at least are still struggling with. That's one thing also that I was curious about just from a regulatory perspective is how will the trades of bitcoin futures be taxed do you do you have any clarity already on that. Yeah so futures do get the wall so this is not tax advice but my just from what I've kind of seen in red futures do get twelve fifty eighty six tax treatment and it's this means so they get twelve fifty six tax treatment. I'm not sure exactly what that is off hand <hes> but it is <hes> beneficial and preferable to how bitcoin spot gets taxed. Oh okay well. That's good because I feel I feel like that is still a major major issue. That needs to be results in the CRYPTO. Space says something else I got curious about. Was You know when you talked about how oh you guys decided to <hes> focus on Bitcoin and not sort of lead you to the C._D._C.. As we've seen <hes> ether <hes> it looks it's like we'll be considered a commodity or at least it's been hinted in various ways that at least it's not a security so if that becomes official then could you see Ledger X. offering derivatives relatives and ether yeah absolutely and we actually <hes> when I believe it was last summer <hes> when there was comments from the S._e._C. maybe from one of the commissioners about it not being security we actually circulated drafts filing with the safety see <hes> for for us to offer Theorem <hes> and then kind of shortly after that is when it became a much more drawn out process as they decided to open up for public comment so at this point so you know we're I think we're just going to going to kind of wait and see and if the F._C._C. gives the guidance that it's a commodity then we'll move on it but otherwise I'll just stay focused on bitcoin and I'm assuming that would also apply to things like bitcoin cash the cash or like any of these other digital assets that are somewhat somewhat similar to bitcoin Croat yeah so we've made it very very far into the episode without getting into your background and you've mentioned this mysterious Paul <hes> so why don't you <hes> now kind of an and also you know you guys were so oh early so I kind of just want to hear the story of how you came to found ledger acts. Yes we had been in <hes> Bitcoin enfor. Maybe a couple of years before we started ledger action by in Bitcoin I don't mean we were like super active but we followed it and traded a here and there and just paid attention. Listen to it <hes> and before that or not before that but during this period explain like where you were working in how yes I was I was working so it was actually to is two thousand eleven <hes> so I was working at Goldman at the time Paul was at Y.. combinator on the West Coast this is Paul Chow called Jesse who's Yep. I'll see your her husband cracked yet and so he got exposed to it first and <hes> so this was summer twenty eleven when there's that price spike up to thirty and then back down and <hes> and so we went through the process of buying our first bitcoin on Mount Gawks at the time which was a very very very cumbersome process between getting <hes> our funds from Goldman too. I think we used to Walla to Gawks but once we had bitcoin we could just send it back and forth across coast easily seamlessly twenty four seven and so we played around with it <hes> we ultimately ended up not really doing much much with it both personally and professionally partly because <hes> we we both have fulltime jobs and we didn't really feel comfortable with just you know holding keys on her laptop so so <hes> but we we still found it really interesting and I think a couple years later <hes> there were a couple of things that happen one was that the market cap had appreciated significantly so it was now I mean it was obviously a lot lower than it is here but it was now approaching a scale where coin Basil's missiles around and companies were moving reasonably reasonable amounts of bitcoin that could actually start to <hes> support a derivatives market and then the to was there were these Senate hearings in November of two thousand thirteen which were <hes> our takeaway was fairly positive on Bitcoin in that we thought the regulators you leaders. We're GONNA take a constructive approach towards regulating bitcoin so with those you know we had thought about doing rotas for a while and and <hes> I think after after those hearings we just went all in on on lead rex <hes> we were early. We were naive. <hes> I think I was actually watching an interview this morning and <hes> a guy said that one of his biggest advantages was his innocence <hes> and I think you can say that for us to that. We didn't really know how long process is going to be but <hes> but we got through it and you know we're here five six years later and I have have hurt you also talk about navigating this like blockchain not bitcoin era <hes> in fact actually I want to quote a little bit your husband talking thing about that period. He said in a blog post. I cannot stand the years of my life wasted in board meetings with morons lecturing me about how private blockchain's are going to revolutionize backoffice technology and suck the air out of the ecosystem for things like bitcoin. They were right about one thing they did suck the air out of the ecosystem for a few years drawing away valuable investment capital could have been used for legitimate projects in public blockchain's and then toward the end of the post. He says quote Wall Wall Street backoffice technology isn't historically inefficient because they didn't have access to magical blockchain's while she it technology sex because they marginalize technologists the and he puts us in quotes business guys rule traders bankers. These are the again quotes front office guys everyone else doing the work of record keeping being in coding are called again quotes back office and I imagine these are all air quotes and the are treated and paid horribly. I've worked on training force where traders will throw pro football's at the heads of nerdy programmers who are closely being made fun of so it was curious to know like you know how this period period felt for. You guys were you were making this bet on bitcoin and all around you. You know you're based in New York. You guys have these backgrounds from Goldman. <hes> it felt felt like everybody else was focused elsewhere. How did you navigate that period? It was rough it was it was a hard period you know as his post mentioned mentioned with suck the oxygen out a lot and I think it was a part of what made it really hard is not just that everybody was focused on <hes> on blockchain <hes> which we didn't really believe was a thing without bitcoin but <hes> you know you saw a lot of companies like pivoting towards that because that's where the opportunity was and we we were <hes> pretty stubborn on on sticking to building a product that we believed in <hes> and so it was a definitely a test test of our will and resilience but I guess I'm glad you know it's sort of has died down and I think you know I think ultimately one of the things that really there were there were a couple of reasons why we're so set on it. <hes> one is we're pretty sure that we're right just from first principles on technical point of view but to is a market driven person and if bitcoin was really nothing than the market would have reflected it but the even while all this was going on the price still stayed <hes> at some you know in may have only been like five ten billion dollars but that's still a lot of market cap that was <hes> still sustained even while I was talking about how <hes> Bitcoin was worthless and it was all about about blockchain all right so I also want to ask about a few other offerings you have or or plan to roll out. I saw a blog post. You mentioned that you'll be offering a subscription-based data service that you described as Bloomberg meets Wolfram Alpha. Tell tell us more about that and how that fits into your overall strategy yeah I mean data is always <hes>. It's generally been it's generally an important part of markets <hes> and what we want to do with that is not just make make the data available but we want to make it approachable particularly options data. I mean if we can say that Oh the December December twenty five thousand strike call expiring in Say Twenty Twenty is two thousand dollars bid at three thousand on dollars but that doesn't really mean much to you <hes> and so what we're trying to do is how do we how can we make take this data that we have. That's incredibly rich and make Jacob on approachable in meaningful to folks and so we've launched on our website of very very early crude version of this called alleger ex oracle which is kind of something that you can just talk to you know you can just ask questions ask it. What's the chance that Bitcoin will be above ten thousand a month from now <hes> and it it takes these probabilities and it pulls from the options data that we have and so we want to really expand that over time and make it something that people can talk to but that they can get a real live options pricing <hes> driving behind it and another product? You have called the L._X.. V._X.. What does that hat indicate? And how do you construct that. It's a volatility index. It's about it's roughly thirty day volatility index so we constructed from <hes> the usually Ashley Front you know one or two months of options that are listed and that's designed to give people a sense of what bitcoin implied volatility is so realized realized volatility is looking historically at how much bitcoin has moved <hes> with the L._X.. V._X.. tells us is what is the market pricing for where they think. Volatility ability will be over the next thirty days and so that's an important metric <hes> even to people who may not trade options per se maybe they are only trading bitcoin nine or maybe they just run a business in the bitcoin space and they wanNA know how much uncertainty is being priced in and so that's <hes> that index is is designed to give the <hes> market a sense of what traders are estimating or forecasting for future volatility and the last thing I wanted to ask about in terms of the products in your state the letter X. Pit. What is that in what happens in the pit? The pit is it's. This is another one that I think I found very interesting thing so <hes>. If you hugh meal just tell really quick story when I was at Goldman I <hes> started in high frequency trading and so it was electronic it was highly efficient algorithm mic and I worked there for five years from two thousand six to two thousand eleven and I remember towards at the end of my time there <hes> I remember wondering why markets hadn't fully gone electronic because it was so much more efficient <hes> and so I didn't really understand understand them and so then I moved to the Goldman Franchise Desk <hes> which is the deaths that's client facing and I got a completely different perspective of trading which just that it's not necessarily just about the <hes> just the efficiency and cutting ladies and getting you know a fraction of a penny better here and there a lot of it is social and a lot of the experience that people have is better <hes> when they know who they're dealing with you know when it's anonymous trading I think people tend to assume the worst intentions <hes> not give people the benefit of the Dow not treat people as well but when it's not anonymous on it's a much richer experience dance and we noticed that through your ex because our we have a block trading mechanism which is done directly between participants and then we clear it and we noticed that this was becoming a much richer experience that people were using this mechanism even if they could get the same kind of pricing on the screens <hes> <hes> just because of the experience so the pit is designed to be a virtual pit really <hes> it's similar to the Chicago trading pits and <hes> the way that people people interact there in the way that they play the long game. You know it's not so much. Let me just do this one trade and try to screw over the other side. It's you have a lasting relationship. You'RE GONNA you have to deal with these people going forward so <hes> kind of playing playing the long game there so that's what the pit is designed to do for our institutional institutional customer base. I love that that's a great lesson from your Goldman days and one other thing that I was curious about was I believe that you worked Arctic Goldman during the financial crisis is that correct. That's correct Yep so do you think that that kind of affected your interest in Bitcoin and if so oh like <hes> or or regardless of whether or not it did like how do you take that experience. <hes> you know in this venture like how how does it affect how you plan to manage leisure ex. I think the the biggest thing that got out of that experience was just realizing using how bad things can get very quickly <hes> and so it. Just you know I think in my current role in running a mission critical operation on is kind of good to have that healthy amount of paranoia and just realizing what what can go wrong and how badly things as can go wrong really quickly as we saw at the economy in two thousand eight. I don't know that it you know maybe maybe years later as I you know in two thousand eleven I think when I got introduced introduced to Bitcoin I think I had more of an appreciation for it because of having <hes> gone through two thousand eight but obviously at the time. I didn't really even though that's around when the white paper came out. I wasn't really aware of it until a little bit later. We'll where can people learn more about you and let your ex <hes> so the X. on our website and I am recently on twitter <hes> so my twitter handles just my first name choose the okay great well. Thanks for coming on unchanged. Thank you for having me Ed. Thanks so much for joining us today to learn more about Jessica and let your ax check out the show US inside your podcast player if you're not yet subscribed to my other podcasts unconfirmed which is shorter order in a bit noisier be sure to check that out also find out what I think are the top cripple stories each week by signing up for my weekly newsletter at Unchain podcast dot com you can sign up right on the homepage.

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Listener Mail: Laura Answers Your Questions on the Markets, Velocity, Privacy and More! - Ep.88

Unchained

1:09:25 hr | 2 years ago

Listener Mail: Laura Answers Your Questions on the Markets, Velocity, Privacy and More! - Ep.88

"Hi, everyone. Welcome shade. You're no hyper source for all things crypto. I'm your host Lawrenson if you enjoying unchanged pop poppin twos, two top rating or review that helps other listeners find this show, and thank you to all the listeners who have given us ratings and reviews so far want to connect up to the bitcoin network, but are confused by the multitude of choices and intimidated by the complexity of getting started, come to lock demon dot com slash unchained and launch bitcoin. Note in mere moments will do all the heavy lifting for you. The future of lending his hair. Open-ended enables companies to leverage that bitcoin theory assets to borrow US dollars to learn more, go to lending dot com and use promo code unchained for all the details for an interest free month, crypto collateralized, lending dot com. Last week was an advanced pool week for me. I gave a talk in Francisco, and I will say. Not feeling the need to be humble about it. I think it went well, and I'm really proud of that because I am typically not being asked to speak. I get on stage and I ask questions and a lot of people said to me before the talk. Oh, you must be so used to this and no, I was not. I was super super nervous before I started and I had practice a lot, but based on some feedback also made some last minute changes that meant that even the morning of I was forgetting pieces of mytalk because I literally just change them in the thirty six hours before. So in the end, it all worked out just practice that we're giving me trouble in our before and did finally get it all down. So think you to tech San Francisco, and I will be sure to tweet out a link and maybe even tell you about on the podcast when the video comes out. The other thing I did last week was I started. The interviews for my book in case you missed the news. I got a book deal to write about events in crypto in recent history. And so I started on a number of interviews and it's going well, and it's really exciting and fun for those of you who remember back when my main thing was writing writing always was and always will be my first love. And so it was just so fun to be in reporting mode and to be imagining what I might make the material. Then the last eventful thing that happened was I. Got involved in it. Witter debate between neural Rubini and Vitol equator and not actually in the debate itself, but I saw that Norio in for those of you who don't know he is he's an economist in he had been featured in the Senate testimony on cryptocurrency on Thursday along with Peter van Valkenburgh of coin center who is a previous guest on the show from a couple years ago and actually SUNA Ahmaz of token Dylan. I discussed the hearing ever so briefly on unconfirmed last Friday and professor being you came up pretty strongly against crypto for various reasons and what it's telling SUNA was what I think is really fascinating is that when listened to him much of what he says actually is factual, sometimes he does get facts wrong, but by and large, he appears to understand crypto which is not always the case with other people from the traditional financial services world who. Talk about crypto. However, he takes the same facts and then conclude the technology will never advance beyond where it is now, which I think just is a strange conclusion to make. I was telling sooner that I feel like the whole story of human history is that we invent technologies and then improved them. This is not to say that Kripa will work out if it fails, which very well could I don't. I don't give that super high percentage, but I definitely know it is a distinct possibility obviously. Then I guess he will have been right. However, I find it really interesting that he is entirely convinced that that is what will happen. I feel like it's way too early to know for certain. But anyway, so I saw that he tweeted that he would gladly debate Vitelic Budarin in any public forum. And I, you know, because unchained as I'm pretty sure the most popular crypto podcast, I tho- the natural platform the for this and emailed him and tweeted at booth them about this and normal. Route me would quite possibly went into the munc- most I've ever got. We're, he called me a chill hack NPR person for the crypto industrym. He tweeted about me as well. It was a less hateful tweet. Someone asked me or you. Okay. I feel totally fine. Honestly, my main reaction upon receiving it was the, I just felt stupid. I hadn't predicted he would react that way because I realized in hindsight, should have been able to see it. But I think the last coming I wanna make about this is in some other forums. Someone sent me his appearance at the Milken institute. Last spring, I believe it was or maybe early summer and it made waves that, but I've never watched actually never watched the video at that time and I did watch it again. I did watch this weekend and again, like I said earlier, much of what he says is true. You know, he talks about how mining in crypto is pretty centralized. He criticizes it for like low throughput, which is what a big part of his testimony was about certain things like that. So he appears to studied up on this. And so in that sense, I actually think a lot of people in crypto can learn things from what he's saying. And frankly, I think a lot of his criticisms are not that different from the criticism. I hear from actual believers in crypto who. Who are also critics of the space. So I have had a couple of skeptics episodes. I've called them. There was one with Preston burn Angela Walsh that was in the spring link to in the show notes, and the other one was with melting d'humieres, Jill Carlson, and that was from the summer, I will also linked to them. So I think certainly there are a lot of points he makes. I did notice on Twitter. He also has been tweeting misleading facts and or they're not facts, but just things that are not true. But, but by and large, a lot of what he says actually is true, and I think there's a lot to learn from it. So without further ado, I will just say that floor this listener mail episode. I am doing this basically because I with everything going on the book and the headaches and everything. I really just did not have time this one week to do a traditional episode, but I will try to answer as many questions as possible today. Thank you to all of you who did some questions, and I apologize because I, I can't get to all of them a few other notes before we start, which is that nothing I see this episode is investment advice, legal advice, or any other kind of advice as always hopefully, you know, from my work and a from both my podcasts and my articles that you should always do your own research and I can have guests on here and they may say misleading. Things, and if I don't happen to catch it in the moment, then. It behooves you to not rely on things that are said or of rely solely on things that are said in the unchained or unconfirmed podcasts? Yeah. Other than that, I will go to the first question which is from no-name. This person says, can you disclose your longs and shorts? So for those of you closely watched me, you may know that when I worked at Forbes, I owned a bit of bitcoin ether. And when I quit in Forbes, has a policy that if you cover something that you own, you disclose it, I had a feeling when I quit that I would not be able to hold onto the bitcoins either for very long. And indeed I wrote a few freelance pieces for the New York Times as condition of reading them. I did agree to sell or give away my the coin. I did own. So now I'm a no coin are do hold a very tiny bit of bitcoin ether and some of the coins on the circle because I was testing that for when I did the circle interview. I can't remember if I if you like, I tested something else recently where I did buy something, but I'm blah. Taking on what that was. But anyway, so you know, the amount that I own is like probably I dunno, it's like two hundred dollars worth or something that's just for me as a reporter to still make sure that I understand what's going on how to use this technology. I love using it. It's probably still get a thrill out of using it. Okay. Next question is from Rebecca Jones. How are we to achieve broad adoption of bitcoin? What level of understanding education is needed on a global scale? This is a fem- that's come up a few times in recent episodes, particularly in some panel discussions, but also actually in some of the interviews I've done, I think frankly, I'm actually seeing this also in some of the medium posts and other blog posts and tweets, whatever that are going around online. I think a lot of people are thinking about usability. And I think that really is one of the biggest hurdles right now, and I think that will be unlocking that will. Be a huge step toward a gaining broader option in. This goes back to what I was saying about how neural had some really good points because he was, I think this was in the Milkin thing. He was talking about how when you use a pink, you can trust that they will keep your money safe for you, and that's their job, and they're better at it than you would be if you had to keep it on your in your house or on your person. And I think by large, we're seeing that in this early stage of crypto where so many people have lost their private keys. They've thrown them out the had them fished privacy's fish from them. They've had them stolen via the phone hijacking scams where the hacker will call a telecom and say, and pretend to be you and say, oh, I want to switch my phone from sprint to t mobile. And so then once all all your phone call. And text messages are going to their phone, then they will change all your passwords and maybe go into your coin base or your other other crypto accounts and move the crypto out to their wallet. And then you know there's no Bank of the coin that you can call to that transactions. So you're just out of that money. So there's been, you know, so many instances where we've seen that these basic usability issues are one reason that people are losing their coins, or they don't understand it, or you even had during the ICU phase. All these people trying to buy into issues from Aucoin base account, not understanding that then they wouldn't receive the tokens. So I think there's just a lot of, like I said, basic usability and understanding amongst the general population that needs to happen in order for you know, mass adoption to occur. The other thing is that for those of you who didn't see there was a really great. Post on the US v log where they talked about how everyone is saying that right now we need to invest in the infrastructure layer in that that is what is going to kind of build out all the infrastructure and then the apps will come later. However, they pointed to numerous examples throughout history where the AFC came first and the infrastructure was built to support that app. So one of the first examples they gave the light bulb and they talked about how the light bulb came first before the electric grid. And another example they gave was airplanes about how that came before the airports, air traffic control and all these things. So I think that we're over eighty maybe starting to see some of this interplay between absent infrastructure and it's a really great blog post because they have all these graphs on how it's sort of ping pong back and forth like you get this one break up. Causes this certain infrastructure to be built, and then that infrastructure Nabil's this kind of next level up which Spurs the next level of infrastructure and so on and so forth. And so perhaps an early probably the very first example of of this here, of course, is bitcoin. The currency is the up and well. Okay, so bitcoin the currency in bitcoin the network sort of grew at the same time. Although I guess you could say, like, you know, the growth in the network really happened because people were interested in the app of the digital currency, and maybe another kind of up that Asli took a well there. Couple one is maybe ICO's where there was a lot of demand to try to do these investments, and we saw we've seen we're seeing now that you know, my either wallet in my crypto are kind of. Trying out new ways of managing or new features for those systems that could help people trying to do those things. There's also crypto kitties which came out which was a popular app and for those of you who listen to the crypto kitties episode, we talked about a lot of the difficulty that people had buying the crypto kiddies. And when I asked the CEO how much bigger he thinks crypto kitties could be if it weren't for all the difficulty people had with, like, you know, buying on coin base and then using their mouths, and he was like, oh, one hundred times bigger. So he was saying that when they watch, people go through the flows like ninety, nine percent of people just couldn't even get all the way there. So the last example of this that I can think of is one I'm watching right now, which is there's this journals and platform called civil, which is trying to a blockchain journalism platform, and they're doing an ICO. And was interesting as they worked with token foundry, which I don't know for those of you who may be didn't haven't followed what took and foundries doing. But what's interesting to me is they've come up with these guidelines about how to structure token sales, and they're really trying to make it seem less like an investment and more like a product, which I think is super fascinating. And they really, you know, write these guidelines where they want you to have an understanding of what you're buying. However, I think that really has its intended effect, which is to deter the speculators. And so what's interesting is that civil had a minimum that it was targeting, which was eight million dollars, and they last I heard were not quite at two million. So in the closest this week, so they may not even hit their minimum target, which, you know, I, I've not sure what they'll do at that point of refund, everybody's money or what, but that just goes to show that you know, it really is difficult to participate in. And you know, during the icy okays because everybody wanted to get rich, there was a huge amount of motivation for people, but even despite that, it probably could have been a lot bigger if it weren't for these hurdles. So there's a lot more education that needs to happen. There needs to be a lot more ease of use. I think that's another huge issue. And in terms of how all that occurs, I really think it's just like going to be a lot of different efforts in a lot of different directions across the industry. The next question comes from Russell Lloyd. What's one thing in the crypto space? You've changed your mind about since you first started covering it and there's a related question from Caccia. How did your personal perception the space of since the first learned about blockchain into our bitcoin, every person goes through different teaches while diving into this rabbit hole, I'm what of what your journey looks like. And most importantly, where you are today compared to yourself seeing twenty seventeen in two thousand sixteen. Well, the easiest answer to this question is that I started reporting on. This in two thousand fifteen. When the mantra in the space was blockchain, not bitcoin, and I actually wrote the first large magazine story magazine feature with a cover line on blockchain being used in financial services. It was quite possibly the longest Email Email along as article that Forbes magazine has ever run. That's what my editors who had been there for thirty years where we're saying they didn't definitively prove that they thought it might be and the article featured chain the company and talked about how essentially you could use this technology to improve the back ends of a lot of existing financial services and that those companies could than also now offer new products that they were not able to offer before with existing technology. And the funny thing is that at that time also. So the way I got into this was I. Ported the Forbes fintech. Fifty list with another porter. She night divided it into categories and I took digital currencies, and so I was vetting all the companies for that category and when interviewed coin base, they were the kind of one holdout and I was asking him, oh, well, you know, how are you going to get adoption of bitcoin? And they were like, well, you know, it's cheaper than using a credit card, a credit cards, like three percent in this is much less so retailers could offer discounts of one percent for using bitcoin. I was just like, this is so. And I didn't put them on the list and. Which is funny because coin basis, truly the winner today, I think we could all safely say so. Anyway, clearly I was wrong about that. Although in my defense, this is just when I was learning about this like literally I was learning about it in that moment. So I think the other couple thing or will the other main thing maybe that I might mention about where I'm in my journey or what I've changed my mind about is something that interests me is if I'm going back and forth on ICO's a lot. And what I mean by that is that obviously there has been a lot of talk about the inequalities that we see in our system and you know, I mean, I have lived in places like New York in the bay area which talk about being confronted with wealth inequality on a daily basis. They're kind of like the prime environments where you will see both ends of the spectrum every day. So in some respect, I liked the fact that ISIS or sort of democratising. However, I covered personal finance for many years, and I also view ICO's as a way for people to easily scam people and for unwitting investors to lose a lot of money. And so in that regard, I really do think that there is a reason for all these regulatory protections and that there is a reason that all of this regulation has been built over the decades. At the same time. I do recognize that it does away perpetuate these inequalities especially with something as a blunt as the accredited investor rule, which essentially for those we don't know what that is. It says that you have to be to invest in investments. You need to the an accredited investor, which means that your income needs to be OC. I'm just forgetting it's two thousand two hundred fifty thousand annually or and then also or you can have net. A network of more than a million dollars. And I was just talking about this with berry silver after we wrapped the recent episode I did with him. And he was saying that he's always thought the credit investor rule wasn't wasn't very well built, which I definitely understand. And I've heard multiple people talk about it being sort of similar actually to the token foundries situation where it should be sort of knowledge based, which makes more sense to me. And that could perhaps be really good solution because that would then enable it to be more democratizing without while retaining sort of protectionist attitude, which I do think does serve a purpose. So anyway. Yeah, I think. And of course, there's another reason why I'm less bullish is which is that there's been so many scams and just really unsavory things going on with all that. So hopefully that will die down as we're starting to see the speculative mania pass. Little bit. The next question is from blockchain or at crypto creeper was to ours, or I guess four hours total on Twitter. I love your podcast and listen to all to them all just wondering, has your view theory of changed in the last three months? So I don't actually don't know why he he or she is asking about the last three months. I don't know if my view on it has changed per se. I think I maybe have more of an understanding of its pitfalls or what it cannot do simply because we are, of course, seeing these new smart contract platforms that are coming out to compete with it. And so when those projects talk with me about what they're building, very many of them will reference a theory and say, like, essentially we're solving for this problem on a theory. So in that regard, maybe I just have a more nuanced picture of of the pros and cons. However, by the same token, I would also say that I continue to be amazed by how many projects are building on a theory him for those of you who are regular listeners, you've probably noticed doing this sort of like discentralising finance series. I had zero x on Dharma Dwight x. trying to think of what are the other ones, but you know, all these projects are building theorem the most popular. Earlier sable coin maker. Dow actually say this. But the one with the most hype, probably at the moment because the most popular one is tether, which. Super super shady history or at least will not give a will not consent to a full audit. So there's a lot of questions around other, but I see a lot of buzz around many of the projects that are building on a theory. And so in my Ted talk, I talked about the parallel world of finance, I think, is being built. And frankly, a lot of those projects actually are building note theory, although I do know that many of them would probably switch something that are came along. So in that regard, I'm not certain that this will be. This first mover advantage will really amount to anything. Long run. I think there's a long way to go. There's a lot of. I mean, it's just such early days in the space, so. Okay. Next question. Jonathan Schell 2017 bull-run gave issues. How do you think twenty eighteen twenty nineteen bull run will manifest. Again, one I'm saying here is not investment advice. I cannot in any way, shape or form predict the future. However, I can't tell you a little bit more about what I was talking about with Barry silver. After we finish recording. He said something lake. So don't remember exactly what he said. But he sensually implied that he thought we were gonna see prices go up again in two thousand nineteen, and I was frankly surprised at well. Okay. So maybe he didn't. He must not have phrased it that way. He must have phrase it in some other way where I essentially took took his point to be that the whole space would sort of like legitimately grow into its valuation. Because when he said that, I said, oh, you know, I actually feel like a lot of the technological hurdles at Neva Bill are going to take a bit longer than the that these problems are ones that will probably take. I don't know more than a year really to solve and he said, oh, yeah, yeah. What I mean is I think we're gonna see Wall Street money, institutional money come in in a bigger way. And then I said, oh, okay. So maybe we're going to enter in that same kind of situation. We were in at the enter twenty seventeen where the valuations got ahead of the technology and some indications that we have about institutional money coming in have come out in the news recently where for those of you who might have seen the information, which is a great little booty publication focus exclusively on tech and have recently launched a crypto vertical. They reported that. Several university endowments. I should've looked this up, but I'm pretty sure it was like Yale Harvard and Stanford had all invested in crypto in some way, shape or form recently. And so that's the kind of vetting that that those institutions do that those endowments do, I think, says something about kind of where the space is that and obviously we have backed coming online in November. I'm not sure what that will have though, because for those of you who listen to my episode tour to miester, he was saying that that he thought that that would lead to the prices rising. I said, oh, well, you know, everyone said that about the futures, but obviously that isn't what happened. So how will this we different? He didn't really have a good answer. So this, if any Wall Street people listen to my podcast and can explain to me how that could have a different effect on the markets on the futures than I would be interested talking because I frankly, I don't understand Wall Street. For well, and I really am interested to know, will this be another situation where the hype did not manifest or really will it really be different? And if so, why? Like what is the mechanism by which we will actually see this have a positive effect on crypto prices? I don't know the answer to that, and I'm very curious to know. So, yeah, so berry, you know, at least things that we will see Wall Street money an actually to just. A little bit more there about Wall Street money coming in a couple of reasons for that are probably gonna be that were already starting to see that our custody solutions. Bick. Oh, has its custody solution? And they're what's called a qualified custodian, Mike bell. She discussed that on the podcast this year. It can also link to in the show notes and Aucoin base custody believe is also qualify custodian there few others. I'm just blanking. Honestly, the situation my brain. So I know this was happening. I'm sorry that I don't have the details for all of you, but because we know these products are coming online that probably is going to give institutions more comfort with the crypto space. And so in that regard, we could see more of them, oh, in the last thing I will say is that I was talking with another source who said that the type of institutional player that they're talking with is different from previous institutional money, which might have been like smaller before where it was like single family offices. And now it's more like multifamily offices or just mentioned endowments in this case. So who knows. I don't know what will happen, but those are some of the theories floating around. Next question, David Erickson, how do you think the coin will behave in a series for sessions lash, financial crisis? I mean, at some point years or maybe years from now, we will see another recession slash crisis item Agean ha ha. Yes. I agree with you on that point. So how will bitcoin behave in a serious recession or financial crisis? Well, this is one of those questions where in the absence of any other factor, it's basically impossible to predict because you know, is this going to happen like a year from now, or is it going to happen? Five years from now is going to help and tenure. So now you know, depending on your timeframe, it could happen at a time when we're in a similar phase infrastructure wise where there's a lot of basic usability issues around bitcoin that would prevent it from becoming a safe haven in a financial crisis. However, even if it were you from now maybe in some limited fashion, we might see some people turn to because obviously there are at least pretty decent consumer facing on ramps, like coin base. Frankly, it's just really the easiest place where you can just go straight. With your Bank account and and by a little bit of bitcoin ether in a few of the other cryptos. So who knows? I mean, if it were more like five or ten years from now than perhaps at that time, when the usability issues are more resolved, it could become even more popular. But then it's a question of, well, by that point, the space full have matured so much that will there be another crypto asset that will be a kind of more of a safe haven than bitcoin? I don't. I don't know. There's just really no way to know. I think the only things we can point to are the certainly in places where money doesn't work. Well, we have seen in limited fashion that some of those people's some of the people in those economies do turn to bitcoin or other crypto assets. And so perhaps at that time we might see the same thing. Next question from Chris Beaumont. What is one surprising thing you recently learnt? So. I literally could fairly anything, but I was really interested by this study that chain alyssa's released an unfortunate and article on that came out last week that showed that whales account for four point, six percent of all bitcoins and that they busted them if the wheels are kind of like negatively affecting the price and the said that they actually largely help stabilize the market as somebody who doesn't feel like super understand how these financial systems work or financial markets work. That was something that I found interesting. So I figured I would just point to that, okay. We're going to take a break to discuss the velocity problem and other issues. But I, I like to take a quick break for our fabulous sponsors, stall the completed and looking to leverage theory and for working capital, a minor looking to buy more rigs without having to sell bitcoin old lending can help out. Landing enables companies to leverage that bitcoin or. 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People, infrastructure providers go to block Damon dot com. Slash unchained start starter free thirty day trial today. I'm taking listener questions for today's episode. The next question is from Joshua visor. You seem to be skeptical of some claims by your guests. Are you willing to be more explicit about which parts of the industry you think will blossom in which you think are complete hypes or scams are complete hype or scams? Again, I'm not giving investment vice do your research. Some of the areas that I think could possibly blossom. I will just probably be obvious to anybody who listens to my show, but certainly the first is just, I think we're gonna see a money come out of crypto. We're already starting to see that in a limited way, but bitcoin as I mentioned earlier was really kind of the first app, and it really was the first thing that helped people understand the potential technology. So in that regard, I. Would be surprised if out of the signals we did not end up with something that was money, like and already there are a lot of contenders for this mantle in addition to bitcoin, there's bitcoin cash. There's like hone, there's dash. There's z. cash, there's minero. So I think we will certainly see some kind of money that comes out of this. You know whether or not that ends up competing in any significant way with Fiat currency. I have no idea, and because we are likely to seem digital Fiat currencies at some point, I really don't know also how that will affect these crypto currencies, how popular they can get. You know, there's just way too many factors to try to make any prediction there. But I would be surprised if we don't see some form of money in whether it's an unlimited fashion or a wider fashion that does take off using this technology. Another area that I think is probably going to thrive is going to be privacy. And when I say that, I mean in particular privacy coins and that is for a few reasons. So as we've seen with technologies over and over again, frankly, many of them take off because. They criminals find usually in them and that actually to go back to my little description of the app and infrastructure, I guess, play between them the interplay between them. Like one of the apps, frankly, was probably Silkroad for for bitcoin. So in that regard, a lot of those criminals found out the hard way that when you have a transparent money than your crimes will be more easily traced back to you. So if you listen to the very first episode of Katie Hawn who used to be federal prosecutor, she's now one of the general partners at entry some Horwitz and she leaves the sixteen the crypto fund with Chris Dickson who was on the podcasts this summer. You guys should check out that interview. But in her initial interview with me when she was a prosecutor, she talked about how she was able to solve a few crimes using the bitcoin blockchain. Where they realized that they were to federal agents that were stealing the coins from this'll code investigation. So I think certainly criminals are figuring out that maybe having a privacy coin is a good idea. However, those aren't the only people that are going to find such a thing useful z. cash is a privacy coin that it's technology is now being incorporated as far as I understand into j. p. Morgan chases blockchain Corum and that's because financial institutions also don't want to be broadcasting their transactions out to the world and for for competitive reasons. So I think we will probably see privacy coins or technology take off. And frankly, we actually, we're already seeing that the last area dot, I could probably pretty confidently say, we'll probably boss him is the smart contract area. And the reason that I say that is because a theory man already laws and has. Is a proven to attract a lot of interesting ideas to it, do take off rather quickly, for instance, the Dow, which those of you who aren't familiar with that, that was a venture fund that was labeled the DA, oh, centralized Thomas organization. It was meant to be it essentially venture fund that would invest in various projects that the token holders would vote upon. And it raised one hundred and fifty million dollars at a time when like barely anybody even understood crypto, let alone owned ether. I mean, it was just really incredible that all went bust. Unfortunately because there was a bug in the code. However, the whole ICO phenomenon also took place on a theorem in general. I find, as I mentioned before, a lot of people are building on a theory I'm and are looking to to build on smart contract platforms, and we're seeing a lot of competition export contracts base. I think probably. Because people know that this is going to be a big thing, and short theorem has the lead at the moment, but it's so early that a lot of people want to get in and compete because they know that this is this game is not over in terms of what areas are complete hype slash scams. I don't know if I can say anything is complete hype or scam, but I will tell you some of the areas that I'm listening went about, and I would say when thing that I've never fully understood is this concept of existing centralized companies doing coins. So like when the kick news kick launched a crypto currency called kin, and they were saying that they were trying to do this, like messaging ecosystem, I didn't. I just, I don't know. There's something about that. I just really either didn't get it or just really didn't think it was going to work. And I did not look closely at the telegram white paper, but that was. Another one. I was so busy at that time. I, I don't remember I didn't. I didn't read the white paper or anything like that, but I just remember from what I could glean from it, it just felt a little bit like a. I want to say immi to phenomenon, but now that has a very different meaning. What I mean is just, you know, they were kind of glomming onto this trend. And as far as I understand, they wrote their white paper extremely quickly. So you know it's different from some of the other projects that we saw earlier raising money is us like t's which had published its white paper in two thousand fourteen, I think telegrams came together in a in a few months similar to that. I don't understand the ripple as I think a great company doing great enterprise blockchain work. It's probably one of the most successful in that regard. I don't understand this kind of situation with extra p. that they're trying to do where you keep the middlemen like you keep the banks, but you also have a coin as far you know, I just feel like when I dive into these projects, a lot of times the ones that make them of sense to me are the ones. Where we remove the middleman, but the way that you coordinate these global activities to provide services in the same way that you would want as if this network were company is to have a coin that incentivizes those behaviors. So so I just fundamentally don't understand how you could keep the middlemen. But if they're all agreeing to do all these things with each other, I don't feel like you need the coin, so and frankly, you know, they have a full on admitted that their ex rapid solution doesn't need x. RPM it works without it. So so I think I would agree with me on that point. I'm also not a sink went on enterprise Blockchain's. As I mentioned before there, I did write an article about some work being done in that regard. So there I think is a joint venture of launched by Maersk and just blinking thing into IBM. And then we saw that news about WalMart tracking the providence of lettuce on. Unemployed chain. And I do think there are some other applicants where I'm not saying this won't work. I'm just saying, is it going to be revolutionary? I don't really think so. I think it's just a way for existing companies to provide their services better, which is great for all of us, but is going to change the way things are done. It. Not really. Next question is from films. Most people are surprised when I tell them that the NAR commode a white paper was published on years ago and Halloween. Many audiences Blanchet hearing this since they feel it must mean they are frit behind the times than they thought when they watch into room. So what would you say to this group? I imagine there would be potential listeners if they felt they weren't already late to the party. What I would say is the sector so new. There was a survey in March that said the only eight percent of Americans in crypto. And as I was mentioning earlier, I mean just fundamental questions about usability have not been resolved. So there's so much work to be done. If you are someone who's interested in this in. And kind of feeling you can vision some future where the signal, gee, would be used in some way. You know, if that's the case, then I think there's plenty of room where you could jump in and say, hey, I can help build something here. And the other thing I would say is in the cryptic kitties episode, we were joking about the experience of trying to buy a crypto kitty, and I was saying that what they were describing to me seems like a very pre AOL experience. And so in that regard, I think there's just a lot to be done. And the other thing I would say to that audience is it's not just coders that are needed from what I understand talking to the various groups. They're looking to hire people with non technical skills. I myself have been approached so many times by various teas wanting to work for them. And I'm like, no, no. However, that's only. To say that I do know people even like me who zero a technical knowledge can be useful, or at least these teams are looking for people with those kinds of skills. And I think in particular because especially with the situation with ICS where you become not exactly a public company, but I mean, yeah, essentially, you have this relationship now with your investors that there's a lot of kind of community management that needs to go on, which is very much more of a soft skills type of job. So so yes, I do think there's plenty to do if this interest you, there's a lot to learn. There's a lot of built. So there's room for a lot more people. And frankly, also when I talked to these companies, they're all like, oh my God, we're hiring. Do you know anyone. So you're interested I much and there's a lot of fraternity for you. Next question's from Adam Sadowski. He actually recorded this so I will play this tape Laura. My name is Adam. I listen to your podcast on a regular basis, and I enjoy it very much. So I was listening to one of your podcasts that featured Jimmy song and my interest was piqued by the short conversation on Oracle's and the concept of the oracle problem. I know that Jimmy has some firm and outspoken views on how he believes blockchain technology will evolve, but I felt that he was unfairly dismissive on this matter. In fact, I think that the vast majority of interesting and potentially world changing smart contract use cases requires them to be externally aware in interoperable with existing financial network infrastructure. So my question is this, why does the conversation about a solution to the oracle problem seemed to be so casually swept under the rug. I'd like to hear about some of the approaches to tackle the problem, and which approaches you feel like are most likely to succeed. Thanks so Oracle's, I don't know if I quite agree with part of what you said hearing your question where you said that sometimes the question about the oracle problem seems to be casually swept under the rug. Frankly, a lot of sources will talk to me about how hard it is to do such things into get even something as simple as like an accurate price for ether. I mean, so this is, you know here we're talking about a crypto crypto outset itself, and they're saying, wow to try to figure out an oracle for the price of ether as difficult because think about this, like, what are you gonna? Do you know, get every single exchange in the world? Plus I'm not sure what the what the equivalent of local bitcoins for either, but I'm sure there is one plus all the deaths, like how do you do that? And then if you have this situation like we had unsheathed axe shoot was in the summer of twenty seventeen. I think it was where there was a flash crash in Easter because some traitor placed a huge, huge order. A single huge order on one exchange and the price crash down to like ten cents per eath. Remember how much it was at the time. Let's say it was like three hundred bucks or more. I really don't know. I mean, then than what is that desire. Really contribute to the price of ether if you're using oracle. Like I mean, it's it's, it's a really naughty issue. It's not so aurthority issue. It's really something that takes a lot of thought and there there's a great little medium post that talks about the oracle problem. And I liked this one quote from it where it's at the oracle from is just a statement that at some point you need to trust them outside source to accurately give input as to what the state of reality is in the post by someone Alexander sank off, and I wrote my college thesis on each who will talk about this problem about like how there is no one objective reality. So I definitely fully agree that, yes, sometimes something that seems quite obvious. We like a so-called fact is sometimes just really hard to verify. That doesn't mean that there aren't solutions or being proposed out there. A one is that you can use. A centralized solution. Some kind of oracle dot comes that is a specific company that will ensure veracity of that data. Then of course, the question is, well, then it's a single point of failure. What if someone. Somebody could easily be motivated to commit fraud using on that company or within that company to manipulate the markets in some way to their benefit. So then how trustworthy is that? You know, that's a big question there than we have something like auger, which people vote on the truth. And so they're they actually, I think to kind of use a somewhat centralized oracle process, but because then people vote on it that kind of helps to ensure the accuracy and they have a whole mechanism by which you can raise disputes and for those of you who missed it, you should definitely check it my episode with Joey cougar, where we discussed this, but as you can hear from my questions to him, I could imagine, you know, as journalists in following this whole fake news thing, there are some people who are just so vested and their alternative. Acts, I guess you could call them. And for that reason, they, they just will defend that alternative universe to the death. And so- auger has the situation where like certain percentage all agree on on that, then they can like essentially split off. And there are so many instances where we've seen in our recent political history where you know you have these people that claim that like Obama wasn't born in the US or something like that, or that Hillary was running prostitution ring and pizza parlor, New York or in DC, and they really, really believe that like they really, I think they really believe that. So who knows when you start putting money to these things like will will we end up in a situation which we've seen happening with crypto assets where there are a lot of folks like I have no idea. I'm just trying to point out that. Yeah, this is one way of trying to resolve these issues of. Either oracle process, but is it going to work? I don't know. In some ways I could see it working in other ways. Maybe not another kind of solution that's being put out there is using a process where oracles have to stake money and their reputation and that they have skin in the game. And you know that that might work. I know that when I interviewed Danny on of trust oaken, they have some similar mechanism where essentially, they, they wanna be able to put real world assets on the blockchain, including, you know, I guess like token is real estate or something like that. And so I was saying, well, you're going to have people checking on all these apartments or buildings all over the world that are being put on this blockchain and he was like, oh, yeah, but you know, we have these local people and they can build it reputations by verifying this. And you know, I did point out. Okay. Well, then at any given mome. -ment that means that you will have some percentage of fraud on the network before before it gets caught. So there's at the moment. I don't really see any perfect solution to this oracle issue. I think it is really, really difficult. One super, super, super challenging. Whoever solves it, I probably will become one of the leading smart contract platforms at least until all the others adopted and then playing field again. All right. My next questions from Katie my questions about the velocity problem in theory. Can you explain it and is it true? All right. So the velocity problem. Crispness gay, explain this really well, my podcast from roughly a year ago, gosh, time flies. I remember when he came on the show to talk specifically about how to value assets. But I think we discussed velocity on that show and essentially velocity is how. How quickly money passes from one holder to the next and the more quickly passes the more of a sort of depressive influence. It has on that price because you don't have people holding onto it, and therefore kind of like artificially reducing supply in the sense that at least for the amount of buyers out there there, there isn't a lot that people are willing to sell. So in terms of whether or not this applies to Theam. I think the main thing at least at the moment to mention is a theorem is at some point going to move to a proof of stake system and mistaking system that means that the validates have to put up a certain amount of ether and lock it up in order to become delegators, which for those of you who have more of a bitcoin reference values essentially minor and that affect of or the that mechanism of lock. It up will have a should have a positive effect on the price in the sense that that reduces philosophy, right? Because sort of forces this mechanism of holding or holding that then reduces lawsuit. Sudi so whether or not applies to three in particular, I can't say simply because also, if you're him has a slightly different monetary policy that isn't necessarily fixed. They did recently vote to ratchet down the inflation. So the block reward was reduced from five ether to three in two thousand seventeen, and then more recently to two. And you know, reducing inflation is similar to the way that the bitcoin system has been having its block reward every four years right now, it's twelve point. Five bitcoins are released every ten minutes and at the next having in twenty twenty. It'll be six point two, five. And so in that regard, that's also I think another way of essentially keeping the philosophy from from being high because there's, like I said, less new ether being released into the system, thereby making. Making harder for those people who want to purchase ether. But like I said, I'm not sure if the velocity problem applies ether in particular. I definitely think it's actually probably worse with other coins. A related question comes from Dan j Haney plan pronouncing that right. This one came in actually super last minute, so I didn't get to Email him to ask him how to pronounce his name. But he says, Suming Easter doesn't become a store value and token velocity, sands its price down to the cost of a marginal transaction with a knock compromise the security of the network under a proof of state consensus. In other words, ether need to become a store value to ensure the security of the network under proof of stake. So I'm gonna fall on admit. I have been talking about proofs take a little bit, but I'm not a huge expert on it. However, as I just mentioned in responding to katie's question, I don't think velocity will sand. It's priced onto the cost of a marginal transaction as long as we do switch to as long as does which prove stake basically. Really, the main thing is that the price of ether just just needs to be high enough that the cost of staking more than fifty percent of the supply in order to CJ have to present attack needs to be expensive enough that it will deter people from doing that and not is basically how the network will be secured. So because staking is essentially kind of in in some ways easier than proof of work where you need hardware. There could be a lot of people that are that look to get into the sticking business. And so in that regard, I think we could see quite a large amount of ether staked. I really have no crystal ball there, but it's just something that I'm guessing. And then about your question about whether or not ether needs to become a store value to ensure the security of the network? I don't think it needs to become a store of value in order to keep the price high enough to prevent this fifty percent attack. As long as the price is just high enough to to deterred that attack. Then I think the network Woolsey secure. And as I mentioned because I think stinking is going to be a little bit easier to get into than than mining proof of work. We could maybe see quite a large amount staked, but I'm no expert and proof of stake. So again, take everything that I'm saying in this regard with a grain of salt. All right. Wookey twenty-five asks me one area that I hope he can talk about his privacy coins, including the different technologies how each -nology approaches, privacy and security. So he had to questions or she I, it's terrible. It's terrible. For some reason. I always assume these ones are are men, but they could very well be women. I should know. Number one, which is the most private coin. Okay. So I'm really only going to talk about the two most popular ones as cash and minero as far as I understand, I don't think this is really Napa out two apples comparison. I think there's just trade-offs. So minero is more popular than dark web and it's quote unquote private by default. But when you're exactly private and I haven't as longtime listeners, you may know. I have not done interview yet with Ricardo spongy, fluffy pony of minero. He's actually one of my favorite people in the space, and he's helped me alive in various ways of the years, but I still haven't done an episode with him. So I cannot claim to be an expert on narrow, but from what I can glean, it isn't exactly private, just associates information. So it will mix an individual's transactions with other people's. So it's not clear who owns which dress and then it'll high like balanced. His and and create one random one time addresses that can't be associated with a particular person publicly. So the funds aren't associated with the ritual address and and yet it, it basically enables this privacy at the protocol level because they think these are mechanisms that people could try using one time address. But I mean minero sort of automates. However, it's not an completely anonymous and there have been vulnerabilities that have been discovered. They've been patched since. But one of them did leave transactions that occurred before February twenty seventeen twenty identifiable. So in contrast z. cash, I guess, has stronger privacy technology because it actually does encrypt the data, but it's a much more taxing coin from a processing perspective. And for that reason a lot or or probably a number of reasons users. Very seldomly choose to make transactions private. Only thirteen percent of transactions are private and for those of you who listen to my episode with Zuko of of z cash meshing to him that I feel like when you choose to make a transaction private, it does kind of cast suspicion on you. And unfortunately, because of how few people choose this, it turns out on less than one percent of all z cash transactions involve both shielded center interests Heaver. So I was asking Zuko of this means that z cash can be solved like a pseudo coup which he denied, but. I think it remains to be seen because essentially, all the other transactions are pretty much just like bitcoins where you can figure stuff out. So one of the other issues was he cashes them. They have this thing called a trusted setup where they undergo this process in the beginning to create the network. But it relies on a small number of people and you as the user have to trust that those craters did not create counterfeit coins, and they when they go through this process, they do a lot of things to try to build that trust that that's not what they're doing. But I know some people take issue with cash for that reason. And then the last thing I just wanted to say was my comments about how it's pretty when you do choose a shield, a transaction, which is one of the where private transactions, it's pretty processing intensive. They are upgrading that technology. So perhaps in the future, we will see more transactions on. Z. cash being done in the shield at fashion. The second question is, what is the status governments tolerance of privacy coins? So this isn't something I've looked into super well, but I did some noodling around and found that the secret service did as congress earlier this year for help in tracking anonymity, enabled cryptocurrencies. There's a quote here from the deputy assistant director in the US secret service offices services office of investigations, Robert Novi. He said, we should consider additional legislative or regulatory actions to address potential challenges related to anonymity enhanced cryptocurrencies. And you know, he mentioned that these cryptocurrencies are clearly ripe for illicit use in an effort to subvert legitimate law enforcement inquiries. Although it is more difficult to trace the movement of Elissa proceeds using these newer anonymity and has cryptocurrencies. It has not impossible and apparently Japan. And a few other countries are putting pressure on exchanges to delist privacy coins. One thing I did notice was that in the Senate testimony that Peter van Valkenburgh of coin center did last week was that he didn't. He kind of talked about how a lot of these public Blockchain's our audits and have actions that are traceable he did not mention privacy coins. Which probably was a conscious decision on coin centers part. But you know, I think because both z. cash ameneiro do have this viewing he opts, which is what enables the user to selectively reveal their transactions to whoever whomever they choose. Perhaps we will see that there's some way in which even privacy coins will take off in some fashion that is not looked down upon by governments. All right. I'm going to try to do I have. I know that I'm running running over time, but I'll try to do a couple more questions. Mike mcglone has a question. How enduring is twenty eighteen trend and lower prices volatility and shifting focus to stable coins, notably, tether. Now, number eight on coin, Margaret cap seems this trend should be the future of cryptos that might actually be used for peer to peer transactions. So in general, I would say that I don't think any price trends we're going to see over the next like five to ten years. We'll really endure until the technology becomes fully mature. I know for those of you who follow my stuff, you'll know that I really liked this book by car Lada Peres, technological revolutions and financial capital. I think it's calls and in it, she describes these sort of boom, bust cycles where when a new technology comes in, will we see the sort of speculative fervor. And then during that time, when a lot of money sloshing around the technology kind of gets built and sort of proves it celsius certain point which then Spurs another wave of of speculative fervor and investment, which then I'm allows the technology to mature further and on and on the cycle goes until basically, it becomes really entrenched and the pitfalls of that technology become apparent. And that sort of like opens the door to the next wave of technology to come in and and take advantage of whatever the downsides are that technology. So it's it's super interesting but anyway, for that reason because the technology is so far from being anywhere near mature this moment, I don't think this quote unquote twenty eighteen trend that that you reference here with lower prices. I don't really think it's like a trend unless you just look at it from a longer term perspective and see that it's part of the trend that we've seen so far in cryptocurrency where there's a bull run huger in prices. Then there's a big crash which lasts for like a year or two years, and then there's another big run, which then leads to a crash which probably lasts for roughly the same time again. So you know the the two main ones that I'm talking about, which people will know may know are in the fall of twenty thirteen. I think China's started getting into this. And that's when we first saw the price of bitcoin exceed when those dollars. And then eventually, you know, right after that was the Mt. Cox hack and then the price Lolita client until January of two thousand fifteen when it like hit below two hundred dollars. It was like one seventy. Seven, I think was low. And then it just sort of kind of at sei ways and the two hundred dollar range for most twenty fifteen until towards the end of that year. And then 2016 you know, sort of gradually increased, but it was really twenty seventeen obviously where we saw a similar hype cycle to the end of twenty thirteen. And there was that mouse of bubble. And then again, I think this year we're sort of seeing this kind of like more sober view of them were right now. I think that's kind of just going to be part and parcel of the space for the next couple years. In terms of your comments here, stable coins? I would say that there's definitely significant mental building behind. Staple coins. Apparently, there's now like around one hundred stable coin projects that are either live or in the pipeline stage. And some of these that were recently announced like the Gemini US dollar and the Paxos if it stable coin, they had approval from the New York department of financial services, which is which is pretty deal. And one of the biggest pieces of news round table coins in the last month was that a sixteen see crypto did invest in maker Dow's MK are tokens. Those are not the actual stable coined. They're kind of like this other coin within the ecosystem that enables governance and I did episode with Rune Christiansen of maker Dow on unconfirmed that you guys should check out a few didn't listen to that, but certainly maker house a lot of women behind it. I've done other episodes with Danone of trust. Okay. Who I mentioned, they have stable coin culture, USD, and I think in general, you know, simply because we all live in this world where we're used to using the dollar as reference point. I do think stable coins will be key to helping the get more people into ecosystem and comfortable with trading and putting their money into into crypto. So in that regard, yeah, I do think the stable coin trend. If you wanna show trends is one that we will see more of in the future. And I'm so sorry guys, but this is like going on wave longer than I expected and I'm not getting to. The rest of these questions is just there were too many, and unfortunately ice, it took me a lot longer to get through what I I have already answered so far. But anyway, thanks so much for joining today. If you enjoyed this. Please rate it on on apple podcasts, and if you like this, oh, share it with your friends on Facebook, Twitter, Arlington, and if you're not yet subscribed unconfirmed, definitely check it out and subscribe. Now, I really think you guys would enjoy that. Gene is produced by knee or shin with hope to really goal of Polly fragile according Jenny chips, assent and Daniel nece. Thanks for listening.

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Althea Network: How Ethereum Is Used in the Real World - Ep.94

Unconfirmed: Insights and Analysis From the Top Minds in Crypto

27:39 min | 1 year ago

Althea Network: How Ethereum Is Used in the Real World - Ep.94

"It'd be interested in weekly news recap on the show I've now added a few minutes onto every episode of unconfirmed where I go over the big news stories that week so today after close out with my guest hi everyone in case you missed it last week I've rolled out a new feature and unconfirmed a weekly news recap this summer I conducted a survey to find out what you listeners wanted and a number of you said the so we're trying to solve the problem of big telecom being highly monopolized and right now we see that legacy Internet user elegance powers Anti Money Laundering blockchain analytics and threat Intel leading exchanges virtual currency businesses banks and regulators on the poem network. Oh Okay Oh interesting so this allows people to buy the easily available a theory I'm using their debit cards good good Internet service so so this is why we set up the decentralized network there and it's Guinea pig automatically for doing that and this also uses a theory him Oh yes uh-huh so basically people get uranium from trade plan and discuss strategy get started with E. Toro and the world's number one social trading platform Cypher trace cutting edge cryptocurrency Dan many people there see megabit per second speeds as normal home Internet and cost is also a barrier but that's not like seeing homes and businesses in efficient way we can build up decentralized Internet service providers where neighbors pay neighbors bandwidth and so you live in an area where people are using the coin base op or you know any kind of for exchange on your phone and then they get that into the router by scanning Qr Code on the dashboard and then one with just one one device and one Internet service provider but without Thea instead of one company owning all of the infrastructure of the network of the software lets US leverage the CEO Visa Card with up to five percent back on all your spending download the crypto dot COM APP today. Today's guest here with me at Defcon in Osaka Japan is Deborah in Pierre it's pretty exciting to see now that we have people that don't like a farm and or a business or a house are are setting up some ten equipment and forty neighbors that's that's typical like many rural communities where this this population there's the some lower income folks you know blue collar people and some challenging geography there's are paying high prices for slow speeds because last mile networks are are silent by ownership but have long lock in when you have Internet service to your home your your locked in the CEO and Co founder of Network Welcome Debra thank you so much for having me and what problem are you trying to solve and how does L. FI network address that problem s. tell me about where you live and why you you guys don't have easy to access Internet yeah so I live Klotz Oregon which is a rural community it's still have that stabilize out outer so that their internet build us a fluctuate between twenty to forty dollars based on the price of them okay so they're basically paying each other and What we call the group of organizers right so in this in this particular network and Oregon it's a cooperative and there to help people get installed and and also the this is actually in in the router a bridges to Exi- so it has a stables a stable component I don't know what he's so excited a stable coin the whole story there's actually is fast high speed Internet through the center of town it just can't it's not well coordinated to be able to reach the the people that don't have it's paid automatically to Herat or wallet so about once every couple of months she cashes out her hundred hundred fifty dollars okay and our is are for the bandwidth so physically like what is the setup and where did the different players in the network get their hardware or equipment and how do they pay for it up with token and as they use it then that is as they use bandwidth on a per gigabyte paces basis than the routers automatically compute the billing and pay the extreme relay oh wow so it's like pay as you go basically yeah yeah absolutely and this allows different relays now one thing I did want to mention really briefly is that themselves use cypher to comply with regulation and to monitor compliance CRYPTO DOT com get up by Crypto true cost get a medal she she lives on a farm and she hosts a connecting antenna and a couple of sectors antennas that connect your neighbor up and in a relay as what somebody who's gives uh dollars using this table yeah I it feels very much the end user like they are that that they twenty dollars on the router and that pays her neighbors for there's questions and and that kind of thing as well so basically but they have to pay it upfront and then get paid back yes for people that want to participate and Resell Ping Internet access to other S- okay yeah so they're taking bandwidth from the sort of high speed fiber back hall and then they're connecting their neighbors up in the back hall is the payments is that like per usage or is that like a monthly payment and like you know do I like if I'm using it and I'm not a relay do I have to in charge different amounts yes exactly oh interesting okay well so then they're incentivized to like yeah we have we have one user we have one relay that will go every have to pay it upfront and then wait to get paid back by the neighbors or like how does that part work yeah so we we also realize that in the Internet service providing space there's kind of a need for works coming soon to cool well tell me how you even got started doing this well I I had been in the net neutrality issues because like if I'm using somebody else's Internet essentially as something that could be a security issue yeah so I I want we're set up her router and her home is is like a normal consumer router but it's running all thea software so as her neighbors Kirk connected neighbors use the bandwith she manually pay it or is it like automatically done yeah so that's that's the key is that users load their routers up with the area and they load their routers lake where your little community connects to the main Internet is that that's a good description yeah so Linda she she now that she has her heart hundred dollars every two months or a hundred and fifty something like that oh well okay so she's not paying for her usage yes she's not paying and then also making some money okay and how many aren't using the Wifi hotspot of your of your home connection and then also we encrypt all of those links in the in the local network using wire our protocol will switch automatically second by second to the cheapest link so ads in that sort of automatic competition so the neighbor's can lecture or the relays weekend with a bottle of wine to his neighbors and see if they want to get connected history so it has also that kind of viral growth that's cute that's funny and then what about like privacy something goes wrong you gotta call somebody or you know maybe you need some help stalling equipment or someplace to buy the equipment from and so we have also another incentive for they buy their their they buy their equipment and then the network organizers help them set it up and then like for example we have won a relay her her name is Linda the answer is maybe virtual currencies can flourish and create a new private and more versatile economy but that grand vision can't happen able to make traction that way it wasn't able to affect change to protect our key freedoms or change the sort of monopoly big telecom has and it was at that time that I met the other without keeping crypto clean and that requires support of governments and accountability for bad actors privacy enhanced compliance using cryptographic can how the market needs and Crypto are reacting asleep at length gives the inside scoop on whether you see on the horizon I'm your host rush for a lot of crypto fans it's hard to find a one place word decrypted at a server in a data center and how much people generally earning from this so eight banning privacy coins will government-backed stable coins become the new Fiat are distributed and peer-to-peer exchanges just a flash in the pan the one of the key components of what they call a price aware routing protocol so that if if you're an end user and you're connected to more than one upstream provider lady an Internet freedoms kind of space for a while and then in on a legislative perspective trying to you know move move regulation to protect you trolls has the potential to preserve anonymity without compromising legitimate investigations? Cypher trees is working on this vision of the future but before before the technology even to run a wireless Internet service provider would not work while in this community because of actually some of the possible crypto dot com have you seen the MCI Visa Card a metal card loaded with perks with up to five percent back and unlimited airport lounge access they pay for your C it's just you have overall so we have around forty okay yeah I we got started about a march of this year and now we're also rolling out with some news what if I n Netflix to what's not to love with Crypto Dot Com not only can you spend your crypto but you can grow it to earn up to eight percent per year on the most popular coins like bt A- An agile kind of decentralize way that the losses to get around some of these physical barriers even to that was not possible so so really it was off the technology founders John Comeback and Jessica Patrick who had been working on I'll see before me and I had had a company at that time called Cascadia and Mesh Net and for trees dot com slash crypto clean back to my conversation with Jefferson pier so when you were saying like you know you got involved in this link a good example she is about six or seven connected people and she makes you know she offsets her own usage so her own is basically free for her and then she'll you know maybe before they went from having a megabit per second DSL connection to forty to fifty megabits per second of broadband Internet you if you have one tower one hill you and not be able to see under the shadow of that particular tower of that particular hill and I it's it's pretty much just about if you don't mind I I'd love to share with you that it bounces from the central it goes from the central part of the town to out in the valley too definitely some challenges there and so before we get to like your expansion I'm curious like when you were trying to explain the crypto aspect to the users on your network was it something that was sign up to stay up to date on the privacy enhanced compliance initiative and receive a th authoritative Crypto aml reports quarterly www dot c which of hills and valleys and also large trees and so these relays then maybe they can see four or five houses around the corner and then they bounced to another house and in fact we have one link each extra p. and up to twelve percent per year unstable coins join the over one million others and download the CRYPTO DOT com today we'll the world follow France and advocate digital currency instead of crypto and a payment APP instead of an exchanges is more accessible for people interesting but otherwise they seem to get it like the freedoms of our Internet and I also just a mesh networking enthusiasts we really excited about that but I've been doing that for a while and realized that I wasn't to benefit from it and and I think that so I think in that case in that perspective they do and if I can briefly I think what is kind of interesting you kind of just recently moved its community and then realize like oh they have this problem where like how did you guys figure out that this could be a solution for you why ahead so that's when we started working together all right so in a moment we're going to talk about how God started and where they're going next but first a quick word from the sponsors who make this show but I am also now hearing that they're excited about the ideals of ownership and choice and resiliency and all these values that we briefed with ten minutes of one on one time with someone kind of walking through the process and then we also found that using words like just make sure it clear up any kind of miscommunication it also it's not a WIFI hotspot so when users connect to your neighbor you're using long range equipment on your roof geographical challenges the the way that the network would have to be configured around a centralized power would not make physical sense I'll feel allows us to to set this up easy to do or like kind of what were the difficulties in doing that. Yeah absolutely I think that's really really kind of interesting aspects of all those users that we have I think maybe we think about about decentralisation just kind of came into the equation as well Oh interesting that makes sense yeah it's really cool yeah and I love kermit where it seems kind of separated from like a lot of people might talk about here at the conference but like this is like usage and adoption and like actual real people benefiting from one of those had any experience with the crypto currency at all before and many of them are senior citizens I'd say about a third of our network is senior senior citizens and the community about thirteen thirteen years ago I had been there for quite some time and at Had always envisioned that a community network and sustainable network like this would be the answer areas or can you play an urban areas yes so we're excited about some of this network starting we have one in an urban area south of Seattle Tacoma Yeah I mean I don't necessarily think they need to understand all the mechanics of it to be able to use it like how most people don't necessarily need to understand the mechanics of cloud and so I think that in this was also lower income area so that we could compete on price oh so you need we do find that made this network possible and what were the physical barriers so a lies in a valley and and there's these large hills so Nigeria so developing world as well so that'll be interesting to see how it how out chocolate happens And how did you even connect with I think that the the the reasons why we saw SAS and I feel like it actually has been pretty pretty successful I'm pretty pretty overall friction this is is that we do spend some like that community so we do we to organize our outreach to seeing you know so people come to us and say I think this is a good fit for my right network my neighborhood and then when we talk about decentralisation and what it actually looks like you know originally we thought this network up selling people on the idea of faster cheaper Internet and they bought into that In this in this network it was having a community ran network that was also can be competitive on the price and how does it compare to typical prices well in the dirt in about a month so that's very exciting we do have another rule network in the Napa Valley in California also coming online and in a boost blockchain's and cryptocurrency so yeah so why don't you then tell me about how you guys are expanding and where you're expanding like this is this only for rural a house that was possible that's great it's there's something very Rube Goldberg in about a but like it works you know Homa was you know every every maybe six households didn't actually have any Internet access or they were only using mobile and and it wasn't very accessible to them thanks for tuning into the second edition of my weekly news recap this one is titled Upcoming Crypto Trend The air tax and I also like my tagline for addition of this weekend crypto after this short break each Horo gives you access to the most popular crypto assets on the market and it's virtual trading and discussion features let you discuss test trading strategies with a community of over eleven million other traders and to headline news they have officially launched in the USA e Touro offers newsletter. which is you get a tax you'll get attacks you get attacks greetings from Osaka Japan where it is almost four am and yeah a little bit? I think that our networks coming online we have some urban networks and the May look a little bit more standard and and then then the network we haven't caught on either a kind of slightly like interrupted show because there was a lot of noise and background but anyway don't forget next up is the news recaps with stick around for the second they have not been on Japan time at all this week for like one day but thankfully I'm leaving in just a few hours ahead of Typhoon Habits get started at e Toro Dot Com that's E. T. O. R. O. DOT COM and build your portfolio the smart way today hiring is so in that in that neighborhood that folks are paying about seventy dollars a month and our network will be able to come in and around forty okay Oh okay well so both refreshing and frustrating when I asked him about the possibility of the US dollar losing its global reserve status he said who cares so with this list as we started what we call an audio hood so the organizers there went and they did some canvassing and they they preregister people that pre-committed to to this when it rolls out in on the hill is up on the hill and then from up on the hill and other three miles out to where the river is someone out there that there would not have been any way possible to connect that person the smartest trading tools and the ability to connect with the best traders around the world they're trading fees are transparent and exceedingly low too and it's available in one easy to use APP expecting a Federal Reserve economists to be that blase but anyway it's getting a lot of Interesting comments on twitter so I think I think people are finding it really fast having Weenie and thanks again great well thanks for coming on unconfirmed thank you and thanks to your listeners for putting up with what might have been a and there were these other rules around taxing airdrops in hard forks that people thought word be either difficult to implement or based on misconceptions and so and we have a training program that helps them learn about it and starting at works and I if it sounds like it's a good fit and they continue to before with them and in what yes I think it's pronounced so my body will soon be reunited with the time zone that it just flat out refuse to give up all right so before I get to the headline the dip the difficult to implement part is that you can receive cryptocurrency Vienna airdrop not be aware of that and still how to pay taxes on it so so I basically just tried to reese through the interview all right first headline this week new tax guidance on heart forks and airdrops not entirely clear like saving tension fifty bucks a year okay well Is there anything else you WanNa say about your experience here at Defcon or or what's going on they just wanted to say make sure to listen to this week's episode of unchained with David and L. Fato of the Federal Reserve Bank of Saint Louis he had a very pragmatic approach which I found situations would it makes sense for urban populations to well we think of urban populations is all having high speed Internet access in one of the things about being in that community and Crypto Twitter Coin Center Director of Research Peter Van Valkenburgh also pointed out that actually one of the Scenarios Irs used in its guidance is something that has never so the IRS released more crypto tax guidance in caused a bit of a Ruckus a did clear up at least accounting related questions but the self custody wallet however on the opposite side of the spectrum crypto lawyer Patrick Merck did express the unpopular the other wrinkle that they pointed out was that the field the IRS did not use the terms airdrop or Hartford correctly and the agency sometimes conflated the two in Washington and this is a community of about twelve neighborhood of twelve thousand people it's very urban within a couple of blocks there and the what we used in the real world and I really found it fascinating to learn about how her community in Rural Oregon uses a theory and I apologize you said about how all they need is just like something that works and they don't need to understand how it works and actually that's why I wanted an interview because I was kind of like Oh this is like a really interesting smooth transition which is mainly increased gas costs and download the code to implement the upgrade but otherwise he says the changes for applications and users will be quite limited so we already have eighty people pre committed to using this system in their community and they should looks like be rolling out we'll see how that actually turns out it's all TBB next up the SEC denies bit wise is Bitcoin ETF application therion released more details on the transition in two point Oh in the middle of Defcon five and the myriad other adjacent events at theorem creator of Telugu managed the journey to approval for first of a kind ATP's bonds Gold non-transparent Leverage has taken multiple years it's a good thing that they have that perspective because he may have sounded a bit rushed it was not easy finding a quiet place to record and even when I did it was also really difficult keeping people from barging into the rooms compound general counsel Jake Kinski tweeted quote at this point it's reasonable to assume that Jay Clinton's SEC will never approve bitcoin etf dating also you just heard my interview Everson peer of the decentralized Internet service provider Alpha network I was searching examples of how ethereal is being used rush to posts addressing some of the bigger questions overhanging the shift to two point zero one addresses what exactly what exactly developers will need to do oh exist all right now time for some think pieces placeholder wrote a piece on why protocol are not businesses happened and blockchain president and chief legal officer Marcos and Tory said that the guidance seems not to take into account the possibility of receiving an airdrop into a customer into here we do cover how multilateral I works he should definitely check those out there like honestly I really find the system very fascinating and I think you'll at

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