1 Episode results for "Unquote Airline"
The Bodies of Evidence & Evidence of Bodies Edition
"This is be one. This episode may contain explicit language to the promised. Podcast brought to you on t. v. one the voice of city that is both the namesake end terminus of a just announced new airline tel aviv. Air who's nicely reticent to overreach slogan is sometimes tel aviv. Always tel-aviv air. Tel aviv air. Which was lately featured as the quote unquote airline startup of the week by the generally considered authoritative for such matters industry website simply flying plans to fly its maiden voyage on september nineteenth and says it will start taking reservations any day now it also says that will fly a single route between onboard and tel aviv. On just one plane. A single boeing seven thirty-seven eight hundred. That tel air has leased from a polish charter. Airline called enter air which has one hundred eighty nine seats including fourteen premium economy seats. The plane will fly back and forth between hamburg and tel aviv. Twice a week according to also generally considered authoritative for such matters aviation industry website one mile at a time quote the targets for the route our business travelers tourists and travel groups so basically everyone in hamburg lower saxony and bremen. It's also mentioned that around. Six thousand people of jewish faith live in the north german communities. And that they're an important target for trips to friends and relatives and quote funding for the new company comes from two operations but tile gung gesellschaft hamburg one and board shaft gha mineshaft hamburg too. I think you said that very well. Thank you which i think would have made the great german. Sociologist ferdinand tunas happy. What with having both iga mineshaft and gesellschaft though precisely because of that. I'm pretty sure that you're never gonna see a meal. Dirk on tel aviv air. I also wonder why really more podcasts. Don't reference that old important polemic between tony and a meal time after dirk scathing eighteen. Ninety-nine review of tony says work in the review philosophic back in the early eighteen nineties sociology circles. It was practically all anyone. But today on podcast garnished. But i digress. Among the hamburg sites of special interest to the israeli traveler are the miniature wonderland billed as the world's largest old fashioned model railroad with more than fifteen thousand meters of track because nothing says vacation for an israeli more than fund. German trains are those cattle cars. Israelis will also want to visit at the university of hamburg. The old offices of arguably the greatest art historian human history irvine panofsky. Who for some reason or other hastily left hamburg in nineteen thirty. Three israelis will also enjoy visiting the empty lot that was once the born plots synagogue which burned to the ground for some reason in nineteen thirty nine after that there is visiting the reeperbahn where the beatles played in the early nineteen sixties. Oh from there. You're just the hopkin jump. From the neuengamme concentration camp biggest and all of germany all that and more in hamburg and arguably nothing captures the spirit of this city. We love so well tel aviv. F better than a company. That's not much more than a single rented polish airplane in a deep heartfelt and pretty much true belief that the passes in the past and bygones are definitely bygones with us. In the one studios is a man who rather like onboard favorite son. Karl lagerfeld brings class in style to everywhere he goes. Obviously i am referring to ohio. Ohad it'll be is a book reviewer for haaretz and he has written for offscreen magazine and lately has written fiction for granted in the past. Ohio hosted a weekly show khalid tv on arts and culture in israel. He is admired for his genius. Loved for his warm human decency and envied for his effortless. Cool ohad how're you doing. I'm doing good. you know. Maybe maybe the weather could be a bit more hamburgische right now. He has tel-aviv hamburgers. It is rather hamburgers. Yes not so also with us. Coming from t. L. ones satellite studio in jerusalem is a woman who rather like hamburg favorite daughter. Chancellor angela merkel brings bracing good sense good judgment and good egg attuned to everything she does. Obviously that description applies only to. Miriam her stock. Miriam is the ops. And blogs editor for the times of israel who has created the biggest and most consequential forum of jewish discourse and debate since god and abraham argued over sodom. Miriam how you doing. I'm great but you are reminding me that i have been in hamburg for business trips. Some many years ago. That was the first place. I heard a talking car telling the driver directions and german driver in german and the driver yelled back at her and it was the car scary. Yes it was a female and he yelled at told her she was stupid in german. And i have to tell you. It plucked every bit of buying my jewish. Look kind of responses could. That's my memory of hamburg jews in german machines for me. My name is no effort. And i don't mean to boast by. They took another pair of jeans to the taylor down the street. Venue any rolled. His eyes took a deep breath and said oh again. And i said it's the bicycle man. I keep ripping the by pants on the bicycle and he smiled the nodded. But he wasn't buying it. And i am not bragging. God knows that is not how my parents brought me up. But i think among the tradesman my neighborhood and probably among the other neighbors to i'm earning myself a reputation admittedly a reputation as that. Poor poor strange man but still a reputation today. We will discuss three topics of radical importance. But first we have a matter in memoriam last thursday rabbi mikhail milky or the one time member of knesset and government minister founder of the matauri m- network of pluralistic jewish schools convener of the alexandria egypt interreligious summit founder of the middle east religious peace initiative and also founder of the center for conflict resolution by agreement as well as the honorary chief. Rabbi of norway posted this to his facebook page but rook diane a met yesterday morning my father mentor and rabbi rabbi amine bent milk your returns his soul to his creator at the age of ninety two. It is difficult to describe the depth of the void that we feel due to his departure from this world throughout his entire life. He knew how to turn hardship and tragedy into a source of strength and hope. This is the constellation that i find in his passing way. Several of the arts newspapers in denmark have dedicated their front headlines to eulogize him a rabbi. Who retired over twenty five years ago. They're calling on the danish people to follow the moral compass and values of this elderly. Rabbi who they hoped would live forever over. The past day have told me that people in the street have stop them to share with them their sadness over his passing because he was there rabbi to we just received a very moving letter from the queen of denmark in her handwriting telling us about her relationship with dad her last meeting with him was just a few months ago my father's strength upon which he educated us his sons and his grandchildren stemmed from his conception and devotion to the torah. He refused to accept a small and narrow torah. because god is encompassing and infinite. Thus my father's teachings have always been to fight for the rights of the jewish people the jews of the soviet union syria and he. Theo pia he fought as a volunteer in the war of independence in nineteen forty eight and was a passionate zionist through his life. He was very proud that his first grandchild is now an officer in his brigade. Geraghty with that being said he wished for just peace and for palestinian people to have independence and freedom because hush alone. The piece is one of the names of god and encompasses everything in addition. He fought for every refugee person in need whom he could help. This is the home in which both my parents raised me and my brothers dad always taught me that if i do not see the light at the end of the tunnel it is not because there is no light but because the tunnel is straight we as humans do not always see the good that is just around the corner when you look at his life from this perspective there was so much good in it that it gives you strength and quote and everything about rob bent. Melchior is remarkable. He was born in boy tin then in germany now in poland where his father a dane named marcus milk or was chief. Rabbi in one thousand nine hundred thirty one bent was four. After the nazis came the family moved back to copenhagen where the chief rabbi was bent grandfather. His mother's father a man named rabbi max shorenstein short scene with sixty six and he'd resolved to live out his days after the pulpit in palestine on the way while ship ready to sail from italy ornstein bought forty exotic birds ten cages and they made the trip with him when he got to palestine he opened up a pet shop on schenken at number fifteen jenkin mostly birds and fish and he named the gun hiatt in nineteen thirty eight. He set up a zoo at sixty five higher cone near where the american consulate embassy is. Today neighbors complained after shorenstein. Got a pair of lions and tigers and in one thousand nine thirty nine. The zoo was relocated to the sparsely populated. Then north of the city in time the city grew up around the zoo and city hall was built a budding it. There were drafts and hippos. Cranes and elephants shorenstein was eventually forced to sell his zoo to quote unquote. Animal lovers union which promised him in exchange for ownership of the zoo's animals position for life as the manager of the zoo that the union would thereafter run but the animal lovers union soon reneged nineteen forty two shorn scene moved to jerusalem where he started a bird zoo and in one thousand nine hundred. He moved to natanya. We started a petting zoo. He was known. As the jewish dr doolittle. Meanwhile in nineteen forty when bent milk or was ten nazis invaded denmark and set up their their quote unquote model protectorate and in september nineteen forty-three marcus milk or got a visit from members of the danish socialist party worried with news that nazis were planning to round up the jews. That friday night here is bent mulkey or describing what happened. The message was the jews shall not stay at home on friday night. It's stop will be here touristed you so. For god's sake don't stay until so the first chance to spent. The news was on the wednesday morning. The eve of russia's And now is an early service. In synagogues the duck synagogues so My father stuck those services in the missiles went to the bima in two toads. The people what she had been told the night before but she told them that the property was to spread the news. That would be no services on russia. These have caused making clear to everybody who would come to the services that there was something wrong and so i was running to people who live not far away and knock on the doors telling them what was happening. The bent milk your running through. The streets of copenhagen knocking jewish stores was then barely bar mitzvah when the cop came on friday night. Most of the use of denmark were gone. Most of them having found passage on fishing boats to sweden the milk yours spent the rest of the war. There where marcus milk. Your was rabbi to the refugees and after the war the family moved back to copenhagen and marcus melk became chief rabbi of denmark when he was seventeen bent milky or came to palestine and joined the haganah and then the idea he fought in the war of independence after that he went home and finished his doctorate by twenty one then he studied rabbinic in london and was then back in copenhagen replacing his father as chief rabbi denmark in nineteen sixty nine for his whole life in a way bent melchior was always knocking on doors what he learned from the war and from all the people who helped his family the politicians warn them the neighbors who help them gather their things. The fishermen took to sweden in their poor boats. The people who welcome them when they came back from sweden after the war all the people who been malki or never stopped talking about what he learned from the war and from all those people is that human cruelty is matched by human decency and that human cruelty can only be met by human decency. This became the theme of his life and the expressions at found of all sorts are too many to number. When orthodox rabbis denmark tried to squelch less halachic jewish communities there bent milky or strictly observant jew all his life insisted that all jews in denmark. Be treated as welcome equals. Nothing less was possible when the danish government passed a law allowing police to search the luggage of asylum seekers and confiscate jewelry and other valuables milky or lead the fight against it bent. Melchior was zionist proud. Like any father would be of his son becoming. Israel's minister of social that i ask our affairs but he also said that quote it has to be realised that peace can only be achieved by leaving space to the other party. Both parties must make room for each other. A two state solution. Israel has to make space for an arab palestine and the arabs must make space for a jewish israel. That's elementary these same things. Of course are what rav mikhail milk. You're rob denton healthy or son. Ralph marcus milk yours. Grandson matt's short scenes. Great grandson has given most of his life to rob mikhail cure. Your has met with dozens and dozens probably hundreds of imams and priests and ministers and he has said that he has never met a single one including those proudly and hamas with whom he did not believe it would be possible to reach a real peace. There is by now. A great body of scientific research showing that the deprivations of war can have a lasting effect even to the third and fourth generations that the grandchildren and great grandchildren of survivors might be less tall less helpful than they would have been even though they themselves were born years after their ancestors. Trauma rob bent bean milk. Your shows that the opposite is true to that the kindnesses the decencies the acts of grace of prior generations to can be visited on children and children's children through the generations you. he's crowbar today three topics topic one. If it please the court as our right wing minister of justice. You don't sar proposes a law that would make it harder for judges to accept evidence that was gotten improperly through deceit or the abrogation by police and prosecutors of the rights of defendants and witnesses. It is the story fruit of the poisonous tree. That israeli courts have been happily munching on for generations. And that's our now wants to force judges to spit out in disgust. Is that a good thing. Also why is it that in israel protecting the rights of defendants and witnesses is kind of right wing. Thing- while in europe in america is kind of left wing thing topic to gold as with days left to go in the thirty seconds. Olympiad israel has already made our best showing ever. It's practically all we can talk about leading some to suspect that it's not just sports at stake when israel goes to the olympics. But something else to something. That arts writer on shell feffer has called quote a battle for the country's identity. What's that all about will wonder and topic three under another son as part of a new series of discussions. We're going to have here on the podcast over the next week's about israeli documentary films and what we might learn about ourselves from them. We consider me be my favorite of all time. Israeli documentary ron towels yada. Shemesh children of the sun a crushing moving and beautiful. I think movie about the first generations of kids growing up kibbutz. We've all watched it some of us for the third or fourth time and we'll try to figure out what it says about our past present and maybe our future and for our most unreasonably generous patriot supporters in our special special. Extra discussion. the link to what you can find in our show notes on your podcast app or at patriotic dot com slash. Promise podcast on the world web. We will discuss an essay in tablet by lee l. Liebowitz called us and them. You're only two choices. are zionism and anti zionism. Pick wisely we will ask are. Those really are only two choices. I mean. can't we be. Vegans or contains or olivia rodriguez fans. But before we get to any of that. Listen to this saw sharp. Who would take ma'am see the by dish. The anon- need a new show. Mary added shen by money. And and lamont do double slip showed. That song is so shabwa by yoni fuller who yeses yuda lookers. Nephew will listen to you over the course of the show. And now it's time for our first discussion so miriam so. Now people want the courts to stop using evidence that police collected illegally. And if we go there like what's going to be. The point of the police even bothering to collect illegal evidence in the first place. It kind of makes me mad. It's crazy. yeah so yeah this week. The government's ministerial committee for legislative matters approved proposed legislation that would disqualify in court evidence that was obtained improperly. So right off the bat that raises two questions. The answers to which are one. The ministerial committee for legislative matters is a committee that includes many of the most important ministers of finance of justice of education of the interior at a bunch of other ministers whose task it is to decide which legislation the government wants to advance and to decide on the precise language terms and conditions of the legislation and to yes. It is shocking that israel doesn't already have a law that disqualifies the use in court of improperly obtained evidence the way things work now if a lawyer for one side or another believes that some evidence should be thrown out because of how it was obtained. She can ask the judge or judges to ignore the evidence. The judges decide whether or not to ignore it or as often happens to take it into account in their ruling while quote giving it less weight. It's very rare for evidence to be tossed outright because someone's rights were trampled in order to get to it. The standing precedent from a ruling by then chief justice dory banish is that the court can disqualify evidence that was improperly. Gotten if not doing so will as she put it. Meaningfully diminished the fairness of the procedure towards the accused. Of course anyone who has ever seen in american courtroom. Tv drama will know that judges. The united states do not have leeway to decide which illegally obtained evidence. They'll allow in which they won't this by virtue of something called the doctrine of the fruit of the poisonous tree in that metaphor the e legal method of gathering evidence is the poisonous tree and the evidence is the fruit. The tree is toxic so therefore it's fruit is toxic. You can't use it in court. Are alert researcher. Ameet discovered a transcript of a knesset law committee meeting from two decades ago. That showed that while discussing possible reforms of the more flexible israeli approach to evidence a now retired. Knesset member named elliot's cohen said quote in the show law and order last night. I don't know if you saw it or not. This exact subject came up so last month and advisory committee headed by former supreme court. Justice edna are bell submitted to justice. Minister gitanes sar a recommendation to formalize and set into law the way the courts deal with illegally obtained evidence. The committee suggested that legislation be passed allowing judges to disqualify evidence obtained illegally only in cases where allowing the evidence would demonstrably unquestionably do quote substantial damage. To the right to a fair trial. Under this approach judges would still be allowed to accept. Ill-gotten evidence in almost every circumstance get on our argues that are bells committee did not go nearly far. Enough sar has promised sweeping reforms to the courts which he thinks are generally too powerful to activist and two free from oversight and he also has a belly full about the police who he also believes are too powerful to activists and two free from oversight under the law that he has proposed. There would be no rigid test that the judges would need to apply showing demonstrably that the evidence diminishes the defendant's right to a fair trial. Under sars law. Judges could also throw out evidence if they feel it serves the public interest to do so say by teaching the police a lesson about ignoring people's rights war by bolstering the public's faith in the court also under sars law it is not just evidence obtained by abrogating the rights of the defendant that can be thrown out of court. Evidence obtained by ignoring the rights of witnesses could also be disqualified. Physical evidence obtained illegally say by searching for it in a place that police have no right to search. Could also be disqualified. Get on sorry is quick to point out that his law does not force judges two toss evidence but it lets them do itch when it serves the public interest to do so in that sense it's less radical and it seems but though sars law leaves the judge has lots of discretion about whether to accept or reject evidence by putting in black and white the demand that judges consider not just the innocence or guilt of this or that specific defendant but also the pattern of police abuse in collecting evidence. The law puts a lot of pressure on judges to rain in the police. Of course the almost inevitable result of law is that people will go free tomorrow who today would be convicted because the evidence against them. We'll be disqualified including people who have done awful things if the judges would only look at the evidence so that leads to our question. Should we stop taking bites out of the fruit of those poisonous trees. Oh god what do you think Yes i think we should I think that this is a good reform. I never would have believed that Me and get on. Sal would be on the same side I think that it's clear that most people who suffer from unfair treatment And brutalization from the police are underrepresented minorities salim russians the opn. Theo paeans arabs. Yeah yeah in exactly And i think that that in a way this is a this is a sh- a social bill That reigns in the police and make sure that the police actually abides by the law itself is supposed to be defending i in a way. It's kind of hilarious. That this wasn't in place before Even more so. I think that should have gone even farther. I think there's too much leeway for judges In in this bill. I think that exactly this amount of discretion is problematic because we know the judges are people and as people they are biased. They are biased. Exactly against the minorities that that that we just mentioned. So so. I think that it needs to be even harsher They need they need to be harsher tests and that that evidence that the police get from from illegal actions needs to be thrown out a outright. I also support this law. And i'll ask in a minute why it is that this has become kind of a right wing issue and that the left wing in general opposes attorney according to my facebook. But i i think in general. It's interesting to me. But i'm a little bit ambivalent about it. I support it because the old view is based on a kind of paternalist view that the judges are going to know better. And they're going to be able to make the judgment about what evidence really is important to take into account and to to balance between the rights of say the victim of a crime and rights of the the criminal to not have there be tortured to get evidence to not have their their homes illegally searched to get evidence and in general. I think that that paternalism is dangerous. And it's one of the things that we've seen over. The last really generation here in israel are is a kind of overall attempt to do away with all those old paternalism they still largely exist but and more in the courts than almost anywhere else. But here's the only reason why i'm ambivalent. And that is that the that kind of paternalism does in fact serve a purpose and the the realm. That i'm thinking about the most and it's not because i really know something specific about it but i have a hunch that issues of sexual assault where like evidence is really hard to get and that if you stick to the letter of the law then. A lot of rapists and attackers are going to go free. They're having judges. Who can say you know what. I know that this person is guilty. Even if the evidence was not collected exactly the way it ought to have been an even. If some machine wouldn't decide this. I know this to be true. There's some value in that to me. What do you think yeah. I think that it should go beyond paternalism And you know beyond the belief that judges have this Especial wisdom and what you actually need is a set of competing principles that judges will be called upon to judge between not because they have a gut feeling but because there's another principle that talks about various aspects of victims rights. So i would like to see a much more sophisticated view of how you of how to the extent to which this is applied you know so like for example you know the difference between using torture to get a confession and having a typo in your search warrant should make a difference in what in and how the judges able to decide about the admission of evidence in general. I mean the the proposals definitely give a lot of even stars as you. Guys mentioned gives a lot of discretion to the judge. I want to raise another point before we get to that right left thing which i find very interesting. Which is that the reasoning that judge our bell and then And judge banish before her gave for this had to do with the fairness of the trial for the plaintiff and there was almost no mention there of the concerns over policing government overreach. I don't see how you can't a pro at confront right now the issue of overreach given that we're increasingly living in a surveillance state and the possibilities where being tracked or being followed. Everything we do is known are health issues and our And our purchases and our travel is all is all available data from the private and public Various sectors and and this kind of overreach is going to you know i. It's going to overtake us if we don't confront it right now. You're right but i think that this is really what sars law is mostly about like in the end. It's not that much about the judges themselves or even the outcome of the trial. It's about forcing the judges to police the police. But i think you're right that this should be done in a broader and more systematic way. But this is one. It's a small world step in that direction. I want to say senator right left thing because it puts the police in their place. Just like the you know. That netanyahu likud government. F- said that the police were overstepping and so this kind of rhymes with that. It fits right into that and that i. It's too shocking to me that the left would become so defensive about the about the police. But i think that's where that comes from that right left thing. Well though i wonder. And i'll ask this view ohad whether it's not also connected to the fact that they the not to use this high flute language but the older yemenis like who are the judges traditionally now. It's a little bit better but they are largely like old white ashkenazi men and that one and the left i think still believes to a large degree that the country started to go to hell when the old when power was stripped from the old white ashkenazi zionist leftist secular men. And you started having women and arabs and religious people in play in the courts. And so i think that that's part of this too but it looks like this. Is i agree with you in a sense. But i don't understand how this pretends to what get on saudis doing in many ways. He is giving judge moore freedom of decision just making it. He's just making it official. He saying you have to in some way address these issues and take this into account when when when offering a ruling it. It doesn't seem like he's trying to to to supervise the courts. He's just asking the courts to supervise the police. He is allowing for lawyers to say to judges. If you do not take into account the fact that the police tortured this witness to get this to get to get this evidence. Then you are not paying attention to the law the way it is written and so i think that he plans on on bringing pressure within the courts and then also public pressure onto judges so it. It doesn't it right. No official way limits any of the discretion to the jets is it seems to expand it but in fact i do think that it requires judges to take on this supervisory role of the police and prosecutors that they do not so much do today. But isn't it isn't the if i roll with your paradigm that the left likes powerful courts and the right wants to diminish the powers of course then this is giving the courts more in essence to police the police to regulate the police to be a watchdog of the police as in in when they bring them you know once they bring them faulty evidence and they throw it out and then a second time then the third time and and then hopefully they'll stop so this seems like it's making the courts more powerful less powerful. Oh that's super interesting. I think that. I think that what it's saying is the way things are now. The police and the courts have this like too comfortable relationship that allows them to basically make you do whatever they want without paying attention to the rights of the individuals that they're dealing with and we need to limit them by turning them on against one another in some way. I think. Miriam what do you think. Last words just well Kind of a bigger broader thing. The israeli legal system is modelled on the On the british On that of the united kingdom and they also had the same problem with this. They say they solved it in nineteen eighty-four with a very similar law. And so if you wanna know more about this subject you look at british law also In in the united kingdom the promise podcast was the most popular. Jewish podcast this past week and so you have to have faith in their judgment. Now listen to this. And they're wigs a meeting. I cool my Dante nine ships bigger mode. That song is at low une- by yoni poker and now it's time for a second discussion so odd. Maybe the greatest win of in the olympics. The real gold is that we learn. Maybe a little more about ourselves. Don't you think not. I think it's the gold. We are two thirds of the way through the twenty twenty in twenty twenty one tokyo olympics. Officially the quote unquote gains of the thirty second olympiad. And here's our admittedly very parochial round of israeli gymnast artem dogo piazza won a gold medal in the finals of the men's floor exercise it is the first time that any israeli meddled in gymnastics or any of water considered the quote unquote core competitions in the games. Israel mixed. Judo team won a bronze-medal beating russian team for two one nineteen year. Old of ishaq. Szemberg from gadara wanna bronze-medal taekwondo on the very first day of the olympics. At the moment israel is tied with ireland at forty fifth in the overall medal. Count for comparison's sake. Population israel is the one hundred and first biggest country in the world by gdp. Israel is in thirty second place in the world. by per capita body mass index. Israel is eightieth in the world and by capita patterns. Submissions israel is fifth in the world just saying israel one. It's first olympic medal in nineteen ninety. Two it one. It's only other gold. In two thousand and four. Israel has never won three medals in a single olympiad before. And there's still a chance that it will snag a fourth and who knows maybe more. Israel is still in the running literally for a couple of medals in the marathon chabad and the five thousand meters next monday after each metal. Prime minister bennett. Phone the happy athlete to congratulate her or him not long after the prime minister. Phone artem togo. Piazza the athletes mother who is ukrainian and who is not jewish told reporters that because her son is also not jewish he cannot marry in israel girlfriend loves and lives with and of course social media as it does lit up. How were we feel. People wondered about an israeli gold medallist whose mother was raised a christian and the ukraine and who never troubled to become a jew quote. Well at least he served in the idea. Some said quote. It's israel competing in the olympics. Not the jews other said quote would it have killed him to convert before he went to all the trouble of winning a gold medal. Some said the whole spectacle of the olympics the wrapped but very parochial interests and the games. At least as far as the press goes which has been covering only these rarely athletes the joy when a metal is one even sports like taekwondo that most of us have basically never heard of the warm embrace of people who and other circumstances would probably never become national. Heroes like they'll go. Pi who came as a kid dropped out of school and has spent his life in russian-speaking gyms and like marathoner. Lana tim tyson. Petr kenyan-born naturalized. Israeli makes one think that there is something puzzling and maybe complicated about what the olympics means to people here in israel haaretz essential feffer road and analysis essay quote. Israel's success at the olympics reflects a battle for the country's identity and quote and there is reason to think that how we see the olympics. And how we talk about it and we hope to get from it does somehow reflect a quote unquote battle for identity or rather a bunch of overlapping battles for identity. So that's our question. What if anything do we learn from the many diverse sometimes weird ways we think and talk and dream about the olympics and our place in them noah when you say i think that the olympics really are all about identity here and it's really fascinating to see how it plays out it's rome and jerusalem over and over and over again and you can feel people's ambivalence about it in the end. I think that there's something a little bit admirable and even sometimes beautiful about where people end up but there in the olympics are like the symbol for a lot of people here and me a lot of us. A lot of people around the world of the world itself and of worldliness and of kind of of like gaucheness. But in the very best sense of like this is the most beautiful thing that the world has out there. And i think that there's some feeling of joy kind of elemental joy that israel is just a part of it part of the world that is is i think part partly these old eight evista jewish themes from time immemorial but and i also think that it reflects like how alienated a lot of israelis often feel about world politics and now we're just part of the world and yet people are also a little bit embitterment about being part of the world and in what way do you think i think that first of all i mean of course you can't make generalizations about israel because israel is you know millions and millions of different kinds of people. So when i'm obviously when i'm reading the orthodox press. They're very dismissive of the olympics. Which they see as being completely greek completely gauche in just a bad way. They don't have the tools to see it in a good way but for the for the rest of us. After after this gold medal was won. My my facebook filled up with and i also went to to religious zionist websites. And there are a lot of people you can tell. We're working this through. It's like they were so happy and israeli at one and he is you know. Rtm seems entirely like an israeli. Admittedly you clearly. A russian israeli in always from the ukraine but But and isreaeli and people felt that deep affinity and yet he wasn't jewish and they were trying to work it through. What does that mean like. He is one of us but he's not one of us. What is that mean. And i think that the games in general. There's a lot of that going on what what does that mean. I we we all. You heard this radio program this morning where they were interviewing A refugee who. Who's paying for the refugee team. Not for the israeli team but he lives in tel aviv from dr four from their four and he Who said very charming. Leave the interviewer said. Did you ever think you'd be in the olympics. and he. He responded by saying before i zero. I'd never heard of running. I'd heard of football or soccer. But i'd never heard of running. And they're the interviewer felt like here's a guy who lives in tel aviv. He sounds like an israeli he. He calls himself in israeli. He wants to be an israeli citizen but he's not and is he one of us are isn't he one of us and at that moment he clearly the the interviewer and listening to this wanted to feel just like he's of us but it's but like all the complications that go with that come up which is why i felt like such an attack when you know we. We learned that when that first article came out and said you know don't go. Pr can't mary in israel it's like fuck that can't be but of course that is but that can't be that and i don't know so i think that a lot of what is going on is in some ways the best case scenario of this like with joy trying to work out what these issues are with pride and with wanting to that like the presupposition being we want to accept these people. You want to call them ours. They're the best of us in some ways but are they what does it mean and have we made them have. We made them of us enough in the rest of the year. The rest of the four years. And what do you think. I think this is all such weird stuff and i also want to admit that. I'm sort of living under a rock when it comes to the olympics. I'm just watching the major headlines. When i catch them i half the time. It can't figure out how to watch the video I've seen very little. And i and i will admit also or not admit but i will say that i you know. I do respond differently. When i hear that israel won a gold medal than when i hear a bout another country. I'd wore out at the same time. Though i'm very engaged with the story of simone biles and and that's i think kind of representative of this whole thing about the olympics. Even historically where it's particularism meets universalism and it's the individual and the group. But i think it's even more true in this era of globalism and of movement and trading players and you know and blurred national lines. That is you know a very big and deep thing that's beyond israel and then when you just get to the israel thing as you said it's this hem sheela. No they're ours. That feeling of like an it's it is an atavistic feeling of like of cleansing and community and try And so what happens when the winners don't look like you're what you imagine is your tribe is i think a pleasant you know thing to have to confront and i will say much credit to the mother of artem to go up yet for bringing this up. She had her talking point ready and she went with it. Because it it. It offends her to her car. And it is a real problem that we can't with that that this shouldn't be solved and if he becomes a symbol for solving this. I mean that would be just great fortunate. Like why should it just be that you have to win a gold medal to get married but but it's good because it puts this on on the on the top of people's minds. I think the most telling part of this whole ordeal is what are to go. Pat himself answered when An an interviewer gave you said your mom said this and this this is now in the prison is what do you have to say about it. And then shove the microphone in his face and he got so flushed and he just looked into the guys. Cameron said i just wanna stay humble and quiet like i am and i don't want to deal with this and like that is exactly like he knows how much he has to lose if he steps a centimeter out of line. Like artem dogo. Piazza are fine for us are fine for the israeli mainstream when it's like just like everybody talks about how humble and how quiet and how soft spoken and how nice he is and how how how. How pleasant and and that's it. I mean that's exactly the thing like he knows that if he steps out of line he's going to get shit on. He's going to get what i think. He's i think he's shitless the talk about political issues that are close because mainstream. I don't think he has any interest in saying any mainstream. He wants to stay in the gym. As far as i can tell which by the way you call the russian-speaking jim but that is where my niece works out. And the only many years the only genucel for for serious level training and mo- many sports. I mean we right now are Are made it to the finals in the equestrian sport. And i'm thinking this is. This is a sport. Equestrian that will also show feffer in particular was very very upset about the baseball team representatives. You'll didn't meddle but you know had a chance of of meddling because they were mostly not all not originally israeli citizens but they took on israeli citizenship through the law of return and they were americans and i felt as though he entirely missed. Or you're willfully missed the the interesting thing that was going on there between the american jewish community and the israeli jewish community there too which was also an identity thing as well. It's like it it. I think it it raises all these like fluidity questions. A lot of the winners of metals in these early olympics. Do not look a lot of them. Have accents. I mean a lot of them. Come from the former soviet union and some of them come from ethiopia or from from other places in africa and they just do not have the normal israeli accent to the and and and raises these really interesting questions all against the backdrop of we only want to love those people and feel like they're hours. How do we make that happen. I don't know. I think that it's i. I wish that there was something like this going on all the time instead of just for three weeks every four years or do you really think that baseball should be an olympic sport now scissors. That's me. shed A dan more. Calm down bob shannon. That song is murphy by yoni politica. And now it's time for our third discussion with twee are calling under another son and here is why almost a decade and a half ago documentary filmmaker and film studies. Professor ron tile made a remarkable movie called the alday hasha mesh children of the sun about the first generations of kids. Growing up on the kibbutz tol himself grew up on keyboards beta. She tie which by the time you made. The movie was several years into the process of privatising. I should say by the way that we're having this discussion as part of a series of sorts that we're going to have where we're going to each pick important documentaries movies us that we think we have something to learn from talking about them not to make the movie tile and a small army of researchers pored over thousands of hours of film mostly home movies. They found in thirty keyboards. Archives and thirteen other archives mostly university in government archives. Picking out films. They thought maybe told the story of growing up on a kibbutz way back when when keyboard seem had kids houses that the kids lived in from the time they were babies on the thought that the kids aren't somehow chattel of their parents but instead belong to the whole community so they didn't live with their biological families. The first story the movie tells is how when not whom sure was born. His father named him after his grandfather who had died and someone on the said. I want to name him nearer. Not knock illumine. The books voted and not whom one thirty five to twenty seven when the thousands of hours of film were whittled down to dozens of hours tile screened what he had small groups to twenty nine people who grew up on kibbutzim beginning in the nineteen twenties and recorded what they had to say about what they saw which became the text of the movie frequently. The people commenting on what they see on the screen come across videos of themselves or of their sister a brother or parents or friends which makes the movie which is in any case very personal. Feel almost magically personal as though the characters on the screen are explaining themselves seventy five years later. The program of the movie reads at the start of the twentieth century. Tens of cooperative settlements were established in the land of israel whose founders tried to create a pure society on relations of economic and spiritual equality. One of the expressions of this equality was doing away with the traditional bourgeois family and creating a new family the kibbutz family the first children of the kibbutz who were born into this revolution. We're supposed to grow up. As people for whom cooperative living is natural to them people who are moral ethical and free of the maladies of capitalist society anew human being and quote what the movie shows is that it is hard to make a new even being and maybe harder still to be a new human being the now old kibbutz and the team and former keyboards game describe how distant somehow their with their parents were though they spent every afternoon and evening together. Lincoln by kevin de you. We know exams pasha a mushroom. Our parents would wait for us from four to seven in the afternoon. They were quite with us. But i don't know if it's just my family or a general thing there was something very sterile. There were no fights never. There was no yelling ever and they're also weren't hugs and kisses. It was all terribly proper. We never saw her parents naked. We never saw them kiss. We used to wait until there was a birthday. And then we'd say abba give emma kiss ema. Give abba a kiss after that. Another man says. I never said the word ema in my life. I cannot say it an alarm. Ima hold on gupta and it wasn't just parents that some kibbutz kids found a nurturing. I have what i deem deem. He would have walks late on people's boots. Five was lay pottage law. You had to get along with a gang of children and a gang of children is usually a cruel gang. the kibbutz didn't invent this. But the turn this gang into your family unit and there was something harsh to about the structure. The kids were expected to live in. The movie describes how hard it was for some kids anyway to sleep away from their parents. One says i would keep myself awake. Whole night's simply afraid to fall asleep meticulously. Ill look at someone else said. This could be a subjective memory. But i remember night. Someone cried all night as is going to be easier especially colin huckler tonight and then comes the saddest part of the movie one of the saddest parts of any movies that i've ever seen these for me. When a woman explains how she try each night to sneak into her parents room ass mcnutt too awfully shady maxine nearby feels ao video and then came that nightly madness. When i would at most put on slippers usually not even that. And i would go to them my parents. I mostly remember going and trying not to caught by the night. Watch guards going from treat a tree. I had my ways. All i wanted was to come and sit by my mother's bed and not even to wake her up. It's not that. I wanted to get into her head. I did not want her to hug and kiss me. It was not that it was not even that it was to be with her. It was just to be with her. And i don't know what it says about me that i cried when i saw this scene the first time i saw the movie in the cinematheque and i cried when i watched this week on my tv. And i cried again. When i watched it on my computer to transcribe it and i feel like crying now. Of course a lot of what we see and hear in the movies beautiful and wholesome and good one woman says. I don't know if it's possible to recreate the freedom we had there. We were gang of kids. We were free. There were no adults. They're not so let's say if so. Hopefully i hear of him. Some one man says in my eyes it wasn't a bad system in my. Is this story where you go do your work and someone else takes care of your kids. It's the right system you think family and parents and all that is the natural thing i say. The opposite is true. The united alert attack or tower. She about to miss your ability. She turned on harvey'll revisit that developed e shows for others talked about the beauty of always being surrounded by family and friends and people who care about you and nature and work and fresh air and a big open sky and no locks and lots of other things like that. And i've now seen this movie three times through and each time it left knee wrecked and thinking thoughts. Miriam what did you get from this movie about the about this society about our history about our future It's really interesting the The old images that were collected the archival images are beautiful and interesting It didn't have the same bombshell affect for me as i feel like it did for you. And that specific story or memory of child going to her mother's bed at night and and that she didn't know how she would make it through the night without her mother for example. It's an odd story because you have to suspect that this child maybe wasn't born there because that maybe she moved to the kibbutz of having her mother right nearby. she was born in well. But that to me is the weakness of the movie because jumps around from meshack domestic from keyboards tablets and it sort of creates malcolm. That is impressionistic. And i always really like I really like specifics. I like details. and so it's sometimes hard to know you're hearing disembodied voices the whole time and you're seeing images that many of which are are are shot from that low angle that was very characteristic of A sort of aggrandizing propaganda films to show this the new. The new child You shoot them up into the into the sky. Beautiful images lots of By the way lots of laughter and play and and Exercise these kids are getting lots of exercise And so and i noticed that because all of us look through look at these images images of childhood through our the prison. Our own experiences as As children in it for you. And me as noah as parents so the stuff becomes very personal And i think if you look at it as a an experiment in utopia It's it's interesting and you can see how it developed in that ideological purity that we now that i now find disturbing but i also would caution a about looking at this as so strange Given how strange our own parenting philosophies and practices are and how particular and how easy it will be. I think to look back and say for example that we raised our children as if they were suitcases. We could pack and schlep them to countries and Took them away from their grandparents. And you know thought they should live in very tiny little capsules of of the smallest possible family capsule. And i think that you know all of these are strange ideas and and that it's we live you know or that. We got our our parenting Knowledge from books rather than from the wisdom of our of our elders. At least a lot of my cohort anyway was talking as appearance about how we were following this and this guy was telling us we should let our baby cry all night And we did that. And i think we will be judged Just as as harshly as perhaps I'm compelled to judge judge. These parents and what i saw was mostly people who were children who were healthy and and lived and had happiness in their lives. And so i figure that's okay this Because we're talking about this in a two through personal lenses and not. I can say all kinds of pseudo intellectuals shit about it that's interesting I felt completely alienated by the film. like in a deep way like exactly like marion was saying like i. It could have been like. I was watching some historical anthropological. Study of a commune in europe and in the early in the early twentieth century And and i really tried to to connect tried to look at it through like my personal life. But i i think like i under. I understand understanding now and probably understood. This may be subconsciously. Watching that that i i think i was alienated. And kind of like this double effect like this is supposed to be a big part like supposed to supposed to win in quotations like supposed to be a part of my identity as an israeli this kibbutz ideal this these people who were building the state blah blah blah and. I was looking at the tv in and it felt so far removed. From what. I understand israel to beat today. How looks today and and and how it feels today in the people that i'm surrounded by and and the way that i think about this place and and and and it really really wasn't away just it felt it felt alienating and i think that maybe one of the things that means is probably also a generational thing like the kibbutzim were dead before i was born In essence the the the thing was was over And they're pretty much nonexistent now in the way that they were they were then or the way that they were dreamed up to be Back then so. I think that that's part of it. But i also think that maybe something profound thing that i understood while watching the film while understanding how far removed my life today in israel is from from that is is maybe for the first time i understood how these people feel like their country was taken away from them. Like how different what this country came out to be is from what they imagined it back then so. That's a complicated thing. Because most of these people were saying that they felt as though it was good that this had passed. Not all of them. Some of them were saying they were. They felt blessed that they had grown up this way but most people clearly felt as though it was something that that you should not have continued and they were happy that it didn't continue. I i didn't come to. I didn't identify this movie. Because i in particular identified with this way of life though i you know. I grew up with a a lot of love for keyboards and to this day. You know. I think that the i've talked about it before the podcast that cuba. Which is the keyboards. I i know. Most of all seems to me to be the most beautiful place on earth in in a really deep way because it really does have a lot of the the values fat. You know we think of as being keyboards values. But it wasn't that i wasn't like and i certainly wasn't trying to figure out to judge the parents one way or another that that scene with the girl who sneaks through from tree to tree barefoot to true escape the most traumatic scene for you only the murray. The scene of this woman. Who is who is is going from tree to tree barefoot and then goes into her parents room and stands away from the bed while her parents are sleeping afraid to wake up her parents because she knows they'll just send her back seems to me to capture like this it. Is this like incredible cruelty. It seems and when i get from the whole movie is like the lesson. I take is that there is a kind of cruelty that has absolutely nothing to do with lack of love or lack of concern or lack of a wish for for goodwill or to to help. Or even with you know. There's a kind of cruelty that that can come towards someone who is the center of your world and the focus of all your hopes and still. It's there by virtue of these these these beliefs that you have which are beautiful beliefs. I think impossible believed beautiful. And you can everything in. This picture is good and it adds up to something. That's so harsh. And cruel and that a woman is sitting in and watching home movies. Sixty seventy years later. And she's on the verge of tears describing what it was like for her was just heartbreaking because our child has that experience on every child has experienced its its separation and it's painful and we believe that children shouldn't it's not a belief but we just don't Imagine that we should have beds where our children fit into sleep. We about that. I think that that the experience of these people described in this film is the experience of every child by a long shot. I think that they they described feeling as feeling alone. And they describe in both a good sent a bad sense and they'll talk about it super positively a third like people will say that is amazing for them so for me for me. I mean i just disagree with you about that. Miriam and and that's one of the reasons why why for me. The lesson of this movie is that there was something about the. I think more broadly there was something about the ideals of this country which was started as a fucking idea more than it started as a real place that were allowed people to be so deeply cruel and they're two things were true at once. It was like people who are trying to do something. Beautiful with love and with deep concern. Who ended up doing things that were also just almost unthinkable cruel to the people they may be loved the most into themselves over and over and over again. I think that the i feel like it's like that tendency still exists in this society in some ways i i mean again. We read books that told us to not pick up our children when they were our babies when they were crying. I mean i didn't as it happened. Did not follow that book but our generation did did things that i think would be described as horrific we again. We took them away from community. We took them away from extended family. How could we have done that. We put them in alone in rooms to sleep in scary rooms at night when they came to our beds. We sent them away. Know what are you. What if i understand you correctly. You're trying to extrapolate this. The way they treated their children to generalities right. This is like this is the where you're going. You're saying the same way that in the ideal of having this beautiful communal and and a gala -tarian lifestyle. They sent their children away from them. In the middle of the night this is the same a ideal and utopian idealistic view that that allowed them. I don't know displaced palestinians or or whatever or two. Is that where you like. I'm trying to figure it out. I know i wouldn't. I wouldn't say it like that. I would say that that there are that this that a country that is based on these are based on these. Abstract ideas had led people like the idea of building a society based on these abstract ideas lead people with only the like the deepest most profound best intentions and deep commitment to them to to do things that were that were sad and horrible. And i and i just. That's that's all that i'm saying i don't. This is to me is in principle. This isn't like the rosetta stone of understanding all of israel. But i do feel like. I do feel like this mixture of what to me seems like something so elevated and something so deeply sad and failed all mixed up together is like it's telling it's important to think it's telling about as like modern day israeli society in any way i totally think that it's our and i. I think that there are lots and lots of like ideals that we you know that that we have that are good ideals that allow us to be cruel in all sorts of ways without really seeing it And you know. Th i like i on the spot i don't want to. I didn't watch this thinking. Oh this is a metaphor for how israelis are treating the palestinians. I wasn't thinking about that at all. But i i do think that it's that something like that is is partly there and for for me. The message isn't oh you know like we think we're doing good and we're shit. No the message is the opposite. It's like you can be doing something deeply good and it can be deeply cruel at the same time in a way that like you have to be able to figure out how to separate but they're really inseparable and i don't have any judgment of that like i don't have any good or it's bad judgment of that it's just like oh my god like the the the way in which these things are are mixed. It's it really is overwhelming to me. and it it makes me feel like i like i need a whole new way of understanding practically everything that we're doing so can i just i just really want hold my own on this one. Two hours a day of time of focus time with parents when the mother is not busy trying to cook dinner and the father doesn't have to run out and buy something or come home from work at seven or both aren't working. I wanna tell you if you discount the sleeping hours. I know you found very disturbing waking hours more time with parents in that model more time. I'm the fact that the parents the model or the people at all the i mean in this in this movie the the people went through it most of them than not all of them by a long shot feel as though it was all sorts of things some of them are good and some of them were bad but they feel felt as though there was something like deeply deeply harsh about their experience. Most of them felt that. And i and i think that they felt that for a reason i think that it it. It really was. I and i understand the i understand why it's the great. I think the group think which which by the way that i believe is the thing that spilled over very much into israeli education. The idea that you have to be a member of a group at at at all exp- anson even at the expense of your own education. You would be you know The teachers were are in my kids schools where that was extremely ridiculous. You know very very strong Priority for them. That i think comes from that In general israeli moving groups and that that we were they couldn't say either only said we that that is where i think that comes in. I just think that we need to be also as conscious about how we look at our own child rearing and if it's not driven by ideology and it's driven by say you know consumerism. That might not even be as good. Yes and i just want to say as a last thing. If i created the impression that that i was being critical of those kibbutz parents they were monsters. It's the opposite. it's that. I think that they were pursuing something. Beautiful in a beautiful way out of love and something harsh and cruel came out of it and maybe maybe that was true of our parenting too. I see what you're saying. Now listen to this school bench. No loan think through bouchut should buy actual shot saw is low normally by only politico. You can find him in all the usual places and now it is time for our country segment. This is the part of the show in which each of us describe something that might have surprised or amused delighted or enchanted in source old or me stephen fluid this as we win that our way through our world of the awhile ohad. What is your country. Three weeks from now god willing. I'll be on a plane cruising above the atlantic ocean. Taking the first. Step of what. I hope to be a great adventure. I'm entirely consumed with feeling in a way i've never been in a way. I can't really explain fewer the experiences that i find trouble putting into words yet. Here i am. If you like a giant wave of clear beautiful blue water washing over me. Pummeling me and carrying me. All at the same time. Impossible to divide into digestible parts. Good bad happy. Sad anxious. Nervous excited thrilled. It's much closer to tactile than literal more like a vibration than like a thought. Kind of white noise turned up really loud. Not exactly pleasant unpleasant but very much present very much. Felt when i aim the emotional to nami at hyper specific objects. Sometimes something intelligible comes through not my house but the smell of my bedsheets not the summer but the heat that punches me in the face. Every time i step out of the a. c. not tel aviv with the taste of along espresso on ice in a small glass. Not noah tie in miriam but the comfy great shares in tel-aviv studio. I know intellectually. This'll probably be my last time here in the studio for a while probably a few months if not more but i just start thinking about it in the white noise the wave it rises and turns everything fuzzy i have a notion of this being excruciatingly familiar while also wholly new as if my selves and their parents and grandparents who've done this countless times before or at once branded into my skin and also nothing more than distant memories of former lives so after looking for some time i found a poem that struck me as an ag- magically powerful is the way i'm feeling now it's titled a mediterranean poem and it's by Pinkas translated by lisa cats. It goes like this from inside the ship sailing far away i gaze hard. The water has mercy. The evening is like thousand years ago in our ancient see. There's nothing new only the wind shifts. I don't think i've missed anything. Everything given ever since is gift wants. A florentine merchant came in offered red glass. It was the year one thousand four hundred and one. I didn't have anything to give for it. And he returned. I'll buy it now like a thousand years ago tonight to. We are going to miss you. I am going to missio. What is your country. The museum of islamic art is a small jam of a building that hugs the curve of palma and hannah streets near the president's residence the other day my fellow and i braved scorching heat for the ten minute. Walk there from our place in old katamon to catch an exhibit. That's all about coffee. That is the sound of a bash coffee grinder. The rhythm is a bedouin coffee ceremony and coffee. Well it's delicious. It's also a chemical stimulants and a social lubricant. It's been a global commodity. For centuries economies have risen and fallen on coffee. slavery has been perpetuated by it it has impacted the climate and coffee shops. They changed everything in shops. Religious hegemony was challenged dynasties began and ended over cups of coffee. Plots were hatched to overthrow governments. Phd's and harry potter and philosophical treaties and love notes were written. The exhibit is wonderful. We learned how coffee starts in ancient ethiopia and spreads to the arabian peninsula by the fifteenth century. It's being grown. Extensively in yemen. In fact mocha is named for report in yemen and the coffeehouse starting in istanbul and spreading to palestine in the sixteenth century. A source of great. Worry for the imams who didn't much like it when men gathered anywhere other than the mosque and the rabbis also weigh in on the matter. Thank god they deemed the bean kosher. But they worried about this mixing with gentiles and that jews would prefer coffee to the synagogue. Which kind of sounds familiar the objects in the exhibit which was five years in the making our exquisite. There's a collection of cups and ancient ftse little silver cup holders and an enormous european coffee maker made of brass and steel with pressure valves and spigots that. Remind you of a steam engine on the titanic. The story of coffee in modern israel gets plenty of attention. Israel's climate is conducive to coffee trees and they were grown here only briefly until the labor was deemed way too difficult. The israeli coffeehouse culture gets a salute with pop songs and ads from aroma. And there's a tribute to the mass manufacturing of this service coffee set so food for thought number one even though coffee is speed and it sped up cultures and sparked creativity boosted productivity by adding more waking hours to the day. The history of its use entailed slowing down waiting long hours for the preparation which turned into its own ritual in africa and arabia then sitting for long hours to drink and talk walking with a cup of coffee in her hands in the office. Say or down the street. That's a quintessentially american innovation and it's a terrible pity and number two if you trace the geography and chronology of the coffee trade on maps from ethiopia through yemen up to istanbul than down to palestine and west to europe. You see the rich. We've of time and space. And what seems ancient or exotic or irrelevant or distant becomes modern and familiar and close and very much shared. So do go to this exhibit if you possibly can and when you're done go next door to the very famous clock collection. Walk straight to the back of the room and stare into the golden clockworks of marie. Antoinette's watch where. I swear you will catch a glimpse of infinity wonderful. Your jonathan once told me also that is his favorite word. It is this. That's why i had to work. So i was at a sif that israeli culinary institute that we talked about on the show last week that upset so many people trying to buy gifts in the lovely little shop that tells all sorts of out of the ordinary local food sha things. They have zada grown packaged by arab and jewish women in some kind of feminist collective and the most boutique of wines and hand fashioned marshmallows and spices grown on the roof and chocolate covered pretzels. The prophet of which goes somewhere. You'd want the prophets to go to an a thirty seven. Shekels for a teeny little bag. You've gotta figure that they'll be prophets. And i'm walking around the store. It's small and the saleswoman comes over to me and says if you have any questions or if you need help that's what i'm here for an i say as i usually do in that situation. Thanks i'm just looking and she says why does everyone say that to me. Do i look like. I'm trying to force you to buy something that i come up to you and say you take this and you take this and you know all all i did was offered to help 'em leper. Why the first thing do you want to send me away. And i get flustered because i did want her to go away but not in a bad way and i just wanted to really see what there was in for some kind of gift giving inspiration which could come from anything. It could be one related inspiration or oil or spices or candy or tea or coffee or who knows what so. I said it's not you. It's me. I don't have a clue what i'm looking for even if i'm really looking for anything at all so i am beyond help but if i have any questions or come up with anything that i want to buy i will come to you because i have learned to look beyond your leprosy i promise. And she said okay now after that. I sort of immediately escaped up to the library in the mezzanine. And i spent a while there because it's beautiful and then i looked at the exhibit of the late first lady in the hammer rivlin's recipes and only then i went back to the store in the middle when there was no staff person there at all and i took one of those little baskets and i filled it with stuff when i was ready. I found someone wearing a shirt. And i said i i wanna pay and she took my card and i was waiting for it to come through when voice came from behind me and said i'm just looking. He says talking about his frail. He says even though what i want to buy it all he says and then i leave for one minute and truck he's got three hundred shekels worth of stuff that he's buying by the time i turned around. I am already stuttering out some lame apology. I really didn't know what i wanted to buy. And so on. But when i see your face. The woman obviously is laughing. Maybe a little bit at me. I admit but that just gave me a chance to laugh with her at me. And i said from now on i am only going to buy from you and she said no you. Won't i know you. Fats edgardo carrot. You just gave a run for his money but that is a true story. Probably at dark-haired stories are true to and that brings us to the end of our show. Thanks oh ashkenazi are genius researcher. Conciliatory and scholar not in residence. Thanks to tie shalimar station manager without whom we would have none of this by the way the studio just got twice as big. We're in this palatial room now. Talking to you thanks to she. Leam my favorite band from kibbutz. They gave us the music of the start and the end of our show. Thank you. Miriam thank you natalie. Thank you hard. We'd like to thank all of our patriots supporters for your generosity and support to keep the show going and keeps a station going. We are moved and grateful and in your debt. And we'd like to thank you for taking the time to listen and ask you to like us on facebook and drop us a line. We're going to answer then. Go to apple podcast and give us a five star review. Maybe one the begins with this. The promise podcast is rather like a dog playing the piano. She may not make the most melodious. Sound you're kind of amazed. She manages to get anything out of it at all. Dot dot dot finish that any way you want but before you do that. Remember that this week. On august first we celebrated worldwide web day so stipulated for some reason to commemorate the publication in march of one thousand nine hundred eighty nine by tim burners lee than a software engineer at certain of a vision document called information management. A proposal by tober. Nineteen ninety. Nine burners lee had created. Html and http. And even you are. I and he had written the first browser. It's an inspiring story because burners lee from the. I insisted that the new technology be based on the principles of decentralisation non-discrimination bottom up design and universal access and. It is no surprise that for years after the web took hold and grew and grew and grew lots of people believe that it would make the world fairer and smarter and richer and freer and safer and kinder. That of course was before the web took to ensuring that no kid anywhere ever need ever grow up without pornography and after that to pretty much destroying democracy and spreading a sort of unwieldy throughout the world and i love worldwide web. They which. I spent this year like every year. Thinking about how things might have been rereading burners lee original proposal and then also john perry barlow's nineteen ninety-six manifesto a declaration of the independent of cyberspace which says among other things quote we are creating a world that all may enter without privilege or prejudice accorded by race economic power military force or station of birth. We are creating a world where anyone anywhere may express his or her beliefs matter. How singular without fear of being coerced into silence or conformity and quote And this year's world wide web day was maybe my best one ever. But i knew that soon. Just like the entire yugoslavian internet all those domains ending with that y you worldwide web day would soon be gone over not to return if at all for another year. Not so the promise. Podcast we will. We've actually next week. And every week reminding you that the dream of a world where anyone anywhere expressed his or her beliefs no matter how singular without fear of being forced into silence or conformity can have some pretty dark downsides on this. The promise podcast.