20 Episode results for "University of Sydney"
University of Sydney opens new mathematics research institute
"This is the science show number two thousand two hundred and here we celebrate by welcoming Queen Victoria to the program and as you'll hear she's preoccupied by maths. May I present lady loveless, Mr Charles JR. I have never met a lady mathematician before rather them something I've planned to rectify in the Royal ring, you can never start to breeding mathematicians in Buckingham pellet what a good idea, but there are wrinkles. This is very animated to see. Maybe of lacing. Yes. I believe they talk about mathematics together. Indeed. She takes her mother is such a blue stocking. They call it the Princess of the parallel grams, we have shown that youngest engine could calculate by to one hundred twenty five places, I truly believe that thinks it's harder pleased with herself respects, she resembled. Their father was every room belong to him. A father. Jeez. Byron's daughter, man. I thought you knew. Walls. Ada Lovelace flirting with Prince Albert, well, no he was just came on. Pie Torah just discussing. The new analytical engine is the beverage inlaid enough lace intend to build an engine. Very fast. Oh, no. It's better type of engine Tottori. It is. What's the thinking machine? The value of pie, for example. Where exactly did you say you could get that to this into the one hundred and twenty fifth place. What sort of pine needs to be divided into one hundred twenty five pieces. Is the symbol pepin Titians give to the rational number used to calculate the dimensions. But you could also use it to calculate the era of an apple pie. To make pie. Even the conference if you'll Scotsmen. Both melbourne. Maths starring in Victoria series, two on ABC television last week eight a loveless wrote about the importance of computers and potentially the internet in eighteen forty two. And so in two thousand eighteen Sydney has caught up. Here's another lady mathematician this one from Corey university. Sophie calibrate, oh, Albert Einstein. He of E equals MC squared and gravitational waves fame used to be a celebrity. That's what I was told by disenchanted lecturers when I went through university these days the sciences, and impetus killer mathematics and statistics seem to hold less of the general public's esteem. Will they ever again be a time when scientists and mathematicians are revered as sports people today. I sincerely hopes or for that to happen. We need a shift in culture as shifting our perspective for those within the mass community. And generally changing the culture might be assisted with the opening this week of the university of Sydney mathematical research institute, touted as the new premier destination for mathematical sciences industry Leah head of the school of mathematics and statistics. Jackie ramage. The institute is meant to support mathematical research at the moment, our main activity is of international visitor program whereby we bring people to Austria to work with Australia mathematicians research in the mathematical sciences is often highly collaborative, and that's behind the vibrant research atmosphere that the institute aims to provide the director of the institute, professor Geordie Williamson from the university of Sydney places and importance on having all mathematical voices heard we select with considerations of equity and inclusiveness in mind. And so we actively seek agenda balance and actively support people who. Maybe have had less opportunity to do research. And also, we tend to balance pure and applied mathematics and statistics to get a broad spectrum of the mathematical sciences rather than concentrating its efforts on specific research priorities. The institute will focus on curiosity driven research. Trying to pick winners is actually a path to mediocrity. Whereas what you should be doing is trying to investigate as much as possible and letting your curiosity drive you and then great things happen. The institute will also appoint a permanent science communicator who will help deliver the institute's outreach aims demonstrating, the impact of mathematics and statistics on our lives. That would be wonderful. If we had some sense of how broad mathematics is in technology in our economy today, this theorems, for example, there's a for bananas Perron theorem that we use every single time we touch smartphone and for sixty years. This was. Just a theorem in pure mathematics that people learn out of a textbook and was very dry as well. As hosting researchers from all over the world, the institute hopes to Lua Becca stray liens currently working overseas. What I would like to see is more good mathematicians industry Leah. There's a stray mathematicians who are professors at the top institutions in the world. And people ask me how on earth is a straight producing all these good mathematicians. I don't expect to offer the molar job in for the mall to come back. But what would be great is that they feel that there's a place that they can come back to if they example want to come back for a few months that would be fantastic Jared field a final year PHD candidate in mathematical biology at Balliol College Oxford and a graduate of the university of Sydney sees the institute as a potential way to change our own cultural prejudices does racism in England, but there's not racism in the same way that it's learned hit here. I always seem to get surprise and shock when people find out that. AM first nations. But I'm also a mathematician, whereas in England that just wouldn't have happened. No one would ever question first of all minded Janetti because I studied mathematics or the reverse. So I think having a lot of people come here who are at the top of their field who are excited, but you haven't learnt those prejudices, I think that could do some really great things for encouraging other indigenous Australians to do mathematics having a reason for mathematicians like Jared to Raton will be a real boost for the mathematical sciences in ustralia and for the wider profile of mathematics. I'm interested in understanding what's happening in the real world. And I think it's absolutely remarkable that these caught abstract ideas, can so well, describe it and predict and explain what's happening. The sky is the limit for collaborations that could develop through the institute it promises to help mathematicians pursue fundamental questions and in doing so raise maths and stats to them. Much deserved Einsteinian celebrity. So you calibrate, oh does applied maths at MacQuarie university in Sydney and was one of the top scientists under forty Goldie Williamson, by the way is the youngest fellow of the Royal Society in the world and this week university of New South Wales appointed three more maths professors all women Albert, and perhaps Victoria would have been pleased.
#100 - Food Classism
"Most of the images on Instagram that I see even in even the young blog as talking about promoting a particular way of eating I'm going to start daily blogging. It may be very healthy of what I eat every day my exercise, maybe eating clean, maybe eat eat weaken. Strawberry apple tomato. Kiwi oranges grapes. Finish avocado high net. Not sure why. But I bought a butternut squash vegan vegetarian sausages. In terms of looking good very much around the whole lifestyle motivation tips, just like, you know, my little rants and talks and things like that. And basically be able to just give you guys like daily inspiration. Because we all get online and see what the celebrate is eating or what our favorite lifestyle bloggers eating then that becomes additional influence on what we. With the help of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube the online world has completely reshaped. Our relationship with food. One of the most notable changes is that these platforms have become cesspool 's full of so-called, healthy, food, bloggers and bloggers everyday people with a remote interest in food have become online since since swarming up traffic by posting a picture with bountiful food options and attaching a hashtag clean eating healthy eating clean eights. These people are idolized for their approach and dedication to healthy and ethical eating. But as these food celebrities flaunt their lifestyles online Tereza Davis an expert in food marketing from the university of Sydney says it isolates. Just as many as it encourages full one. I mean, I'm thinking of rural populations, for instance, a regional young people who Congo into the supermarket and get the Asai bowl or Congo into cafe and get this smashed avocado. Many a struggling to afford, basic, food necessities. Led to learn the latest SuperFood or expensive old Ganic alternative paraded by an online foodie. It seems like the online world consists of oven cosmopolitan beautiful young person and someone with disposable income. Exactly. And that I think is always an excluding kind of an image. Theresa explains while food and access to food has always been linked to social status and Kloss on me. If you think about the Romans in the way, they aid they would literally eat throw away gold plates. I mean, this is they would eat the most expensive foods. They would eat foods from very far away the divide between those who can afford these lifestyles, and those who can't is becoming increasingly apparent being in the know. And you know, having that is sort of part of the gas system, I think the privileged and the means to acquire it and others don't and that in itself is a class barrier. Who wanna make sushi rice I put in some rice vinegar. So this is like one that doesn't have sugar or salt in it. And then just like a tiny bit of gob aid despite eating three meals a day in snacking on an endless amount of bananas hunger became a serious problem throughout the week for me. This is think sustainability I'm Jake him. And this is part one of a series looking at the classes of the green movement where on this episode. We unpack how the Hunga of Australia's upper middle class is forcing vulnerable communities into food, insecurity. With nearly ninety percent of the population. Living in towns and cities ustralia is one of the most urbanized countries in the world. This means that supermarkets and food outlets a disproportionately more frequent in metropolitan stralia than rural and regional communities where according to Sarah Wilkinson from the school of the built environment at the university of technology, Sydney these areas and not just where the mild saw. But where the money is. Because we have just a couple of supermarkets that have got such a dominant hold on the bulk of the mall. Can't it's very honed to break their business model with their economies of scales distribution networks, and what that she make available to us Sarah notes that while much of the produce on the shelves of metro supermarkets comes from rural produces these communities ultimately end up with the short end of the stick as they produce heads out to the city's I earn lead to come back in much poor condition to transport food back to the. Laura communities is very time consuming. The quality of the food is not the best and it's also very expensive. They end up paying a premium even though ironically, the food theri team may be grown very close to where they actually live supermarket retailers seeing little financial benefit in building. Somewhere out of the metro means they may end up being fewer or no places for people to go to buy fresh, fruit and vegetables. And if there's no way around for you to get the food, you need tenure, Lois assistant, professor in diet ticks from the university of cameras says you travel, you drive if you have a car, but then there's the cost of petrol or you get public transport, and that's only if there's a train station or bus stop close by the distance in getting to services that provide free food oh taper fade or even just getting to the soup. Markets and the cost of getting the, you know bus fare you mentioned before can be quite expensive. Or even just if I have to walk trying to walk with bags of groceries in an Australian, summa know the difficulties in doing that. But Tanya says is also the issue of once you get there bought food is on offer. If there are no supermarkets within traveling distance. And you'll only option is the corner store that may sell food. Staples, like rice and bread, but not fresh fruit and veg the lack of food on offer. Also means a lack in nutrition, and it's easy to get access to those fades that Holly processed in full have high salt sugar and fat and giant provide those nutrients food marketing expert to raise a Davis explains. That's why in many cases, junk foods as well as fast food chains and restaurants of the earn. Option. I the first one to advocate against eating junk food for so many reasons at the same time one was recognized the junk food is for one the cheapest food available, and when you're talking about people who are in food distress junk food may be a way of coping some of the studies we've seen looking at how families cope a parent said if she can buy frozen hold pizzas cut it up into pieces and up the individual pieces and put it in the freezer for her children to eat after slice by slice after they come home from school. She felt she had done her. Done best. And that was because she didn't have the money to spend on the smashed, avocado breakfast or asparagus at dinner. So I mean, that's that's something. We need to recognize that a sexual disadvantage is that being a whole lot of the world. Can't eat healthily. These structural disadvantages of what push some of stray Elliot's most vulnerable communities even further into food to stress tenure Lola's from the university of Cambre has been researching the factors that contribute to food insecurity for resettled refugees and says not only do these communities in count to the issues of food cost in access even more so than the general population in stabling, an income and familiarizing themselves with the area to which they've been resettled. But they also face unique precious that come with resettling to another country. Particular refugees is getting a guess what? I'd call to digital food through that you've been bought up on and trying to understand no head of coke and foods here in stri are quivalent to foods that you might have had back at high camel mate Mont be something that they consume a lot of and we don't have access to Camelot soy substituting that for something that's nutritionally equivalent might be something lamb. Another issue is with labeling and whether or not someone who for instance may fuller. A Hal diet would have proficient English skills to discern between whether a product is or isn't Hello. These factors around labeling Tanya says is what deters many away from cooking and looking to fostered options because the fades already prepared for them because they may have come to astrologer the partner or the family moved on the cooking at home said, I don't know how to cook themselves. And relying on other people to do that food preparation for them. And then that creates a risk in buying Tyco foods phosphates because it's quicker. It's easier in that don't know how to cook. This in the digital pressure looming visum of stralia, most food distressed, a stigma, a stigma that labels. Those eight junk food who go to fast food restaurants, those who take their families to McDonald's for Dinah as uneducated as lazy as unhealthy and that they bring it on themselves. When in fact, these communities of being denounced by the very people who built the system that put them there in the first place. Then you have the mother, you know, trying to cope with Rosen pizza. She's doing the best. She can may have to admire what you know, what they do with the with what the have. So I think that's that's the kind of disparity is we do have. Now tenure says this idea was particularly prevalent in another research project. She worked on interviewing a number of women from the ACT who were food insecure, I interviewed forty-one women here in the ice Tate. And I just sat down with them and got them to tell me this story about how difficult it was to to access. The women that I interviewed Ryan from non-chinese wrought up to seventy years in the reasons why we're in circumstances varied from escaping domestic violence to apartment dying leaving them with lots of debt. And so they had to sell up everything in now found themselves in a situation. Everyone thinks that Deutsche who have reading secure a low income, you know, really don't have any motivation and really sort of debt take advantage of the system. But the women that are sparked to didn't ask debate any situation that were trying really hard to get out of that situation. Hop of them, many Detroit quotas had utan or above education level and non of the women actually university educated the women you you're not show the the refugee Hypo Nautilus, well, they not want to eight to maintain the health. But sometimes that that choice is taken added. They control. Some food sometimes is better than knife food at all. In the meantime, metro populations have the money in time to engage in new food Pacino, these the rise of alternative food markets like food bucks games where appre Ogunye mix of organic mates, fruits and vegetables can be delivered to your doorstep to pharmacy markets where produce is sold in-person directly from suppliers who usually travelled to sail in Ovan hotspots basil tentatives give these populations not just access to more food, but a greater range of choice. Matt daily from the institute, full, sustainable futures. At the university of technology, Sydney says people may partake in these markets, not just to buy organic, but to detach from traditional retailers and engage in food system. That carries a light environmental footprint. You're going to sail. Ecoles job getting food section is often rapid laser lies, plastic competitor. You're getting a environmental win by vying. But you can you all extra acting just kinda put us that's not to say these markets will programs only operate in metro ustralia, but those working outside these areas, usually let by different motivations food programs. Run by local groups, churches and councils setting up co ops and pantries a typically focused on helping those in need rather than protecting the planet when you're hungry you need to eight in. I'm because you feel better it gives you the motivation to apply for that job to try and improve your situation fake lies big potting in that the weight of lifting vulnerable communities out of food to stress for the most pot foles onto these local groups and initiatives. Many having little money behind them and others operating not just out of goodwill, but out of there are in pockets and with population growth in ovens -ation pushing these communities further out and away from metro areas away from these programs Greengross in supermarkets tenure lowest says, the problem may only get worse. Given a stray Leah has no national policy in place to address food security. Do other countries have a national food security policy. Yes. Some have policies in effect. Some look at fate security in Dato Canada in the US would look fade security better than what we do here in a strident. We have at hawk said ice every couple years or five years old, whatever in the new have different organizations, universities doing little studies to say what is any to pick. Lou insecure is areas such as nine one area that's collecting. All of the the information across the straw at the moment, and that's one of the problems, a strong, national policy tenure believes would identify not only the communities most at risk, but bring together all the players who have stakes in this, insecurity, governments industry retailers food charities the transport sector, recognizing the not removed from one another and that letting them operate in isolation. Exacerbates the problem if a supermarket is built in original town is there an adequate public transport system to help those who don't drive get to the food. They need. If a food charity is under the pump because more and more people are relying on them to eight other other parties or even government interventions that could assist. With no national policy to join the dots. These problems remained unresolved and to let the biggest supermarkets in the country. Continue to monopolize what we can and con eight. Retailers foot retailers have huge amounts of power in the system. Theresa davis. Again, they decide what the promise cO, what kinds of the us what kinds of of of market. So it's really a question of tipping that balance somehow, and I think have a definite role playing this from us. Leaving from prince comes. I think find it too convenient to go along with business right now. Especially groups like the sugar before instance, you have stood interest in all of this. I mean, there is no doubt about it. Big business does not say that money comes from fresh food right now. So they don't they don't care. I mean, it's easy to sell cheap processed food. And that's what they'll do until we give them a reason to vice. Guys, and welcome back to channel in this video of me showing you what I eat in a day. Unless we and I also love to watch these that was on YouTube. So I figured it was time to try out when myself so have you seen any of the research that you've done either with vulnerable women resettled refugees? How a social media food culture that we engaged in today. One of showcasing good eating healthy lifestyles, fitness does that trickle into anyone's earn anxieties or personal insecurities when it comes to the food relationships. You know, I think and I'm gonna log out the wonderful women to respond to that. So K Tanya lowest all the way to new that I needed to eight as foods and I wanted to provide a healthy foods for their children. So that I can change that sort of culture in terms of they child Nys these fades, a good two eight and continue going along that path. Why sometime saying that social media stuff? But not being able to afford a healthy dot all the time was quite distressing. For these women end the really felt down about not being able to eight to foods that I'd like to eight and the impacted that was having on the health, and some of the women did mention that it increases that feeling of of banging adequate end disappointment oneself because you couldn't get access to that healthy food will make sure that you do as healthy as what we would like to. Up your phone continually reinforcing. Yeah. And spread some HAMAs on there. So now, I have a little bit of HAMAs on their this is going to add some protein and five year, which is going to help keep me full. And also just as a lot of flavor I love homeless, and I'm just gonna take some of this rubella sprinkle this on here. Just enough. Not too much. Just kind of scores that down a little bit. And then. Sustainability is made possible with the support of two SEI radio the university of technology, Sydney and deterred around the strategy by the community radio network. This is made in the studios based in Sydney on gotta go land of the ER a nation whose sovereignty was never stated you can subscribe to the show wherever you get your put costs where also on itchy us. Just search for sustainability. Next week is part two of our series looking at the classism of the environmental movement. It's cold, colonial green spaces. I'm check modem. Catchy. Next time.
Is the system stacked against women in science?
"Another woman in science, one of the team leaders at JPL is a woman from Australia. So is the gender gap, narrowing in science, here's an attache Hurley Walker at Curtin university in Perth, I'm a scientist and also a mother of two wonderful children. But that's three full-time jobs. I've been in astronomy for fifteen years and made some amazing discoveries before kids, I was working long ten hour days working at the weekends travelling every few months, but three years ago. I made the difficult decision to put my family ahead of my career. Now, I work from nine to five, and I tried to put the laptop away in the evening that makes me wonder cana- women really succeed in science or is the system stacked against me and green is one of the trailblazers for women in astronomy. She's an emeritus professor at the university of Sydney and she struggled with the same questions as me decades ago when I started PHD tuned. Out that I was first woman to do pitchy in physics at the university of Sydney people used to come and see whereas the goal with two heads, not quite, but they used to come to see the girl, but I had an amazing time made great friends, and they're still friends now after fifty years and followed in the footsteps of the first female undergraduate students at the university of Sydney, including the famous radio astronomer ruby Payne, Scott, she graduated and took up a prestigious fellowship in Germany, but it soon became difficult to find a balance between her husband's career in Belgium and her own for year. I commuted driving between Belgium, and Germany, and it wasn't much fun. And after wall at to make a choice. I retired from stormy. I thought forever towards the end we'd been this seven years. I had one child daughter childbirth in Flemish, then we moved to Geneva, and I had a second daughter childbirth in French and the English words were and then we came back to Australia in ninety six but by this stage. I had small children, and I ran a canteen at school and clothing pool, and all of the things that volunteers do and then in nineteen ninety one I had the chance to come back after fifteen years out, and I make the then head of school. And he said, well, what are you doing unless running the clothing pool, then all of the things with small children? And he said with is a project that's not dissimilar to what you use your pitch. Do would you think of coming back? And I said, well, I don't have any after school care. So I would want school holidays off from. I'd want to work part-time expecting him to say, well when you're serious come and see me, and he said, that's fine. Can you start Monday? That's about Phil off to you work part time, and you balance this with your family life challenges enormous challenges coming back when I had small children. I probably worked many more hours than what I was paid thing. That's one of the trips part time, and I was always missing meetings. I was lucky that I had a partner we've financially we're able to do that many people are not. That's tough. I think I would lucky you have to have a prepared mine. You have to be ready to take advantage of an opportunity, but I had a mentor who gave me a chance and spent her career investigating the ecology and structure of our Milky Way. Galaxy she was the director of the renowned Malonga observatory and in two thousand seven was appointed the first female head of physics at the university of Sydney, she mentored many young researches and one of them went on to supervise Jemma Anderson who graduated in two thousand thirteen she now works at the international center for radio astronomy research in Perth, and is also trying to improve gender equity in astronomy, probably the biggest responsibility with being woman in science is that many of the institutes very much wanting courage, more women become PHD students and then go on into academic careers. And that means that they want to have women represented on selection panels being that. Face of the field of the institute, and by trying to expose more women, the hostesses attract more women the downside of that. Is that the very few women within these departments spread quite thin? If there are only a small number of women in a department. They're going to be spread out amongst many communities, whereas men will need to act on say one or two. And so they have more time for research, and that makes them more competitive against the women. There are in level in the field in a way. It's like the emotional labor of running a household also translates to the work environment. Women still have this extra workload on top of their normal role. Sometimes when you go to these meetings or committees that are about helping to improve gender equity is all early to mid career women. So once again, they're the ones that are actually often having to drive effort change that's a real catch twenty two. But I suppose we can hope that future generations will reap the benefit of this. Hopefully that is the case that it will pay off. But if the effort that women are leading into release committees a meaning that then. Getting hired later down the track because their research output is lower than the statistics are not going to change between and Gemma's times and science. The statistics have improved in twenty fourteen about forty percent of Australian scientists for women, but this gap widens at the most senior levels with less than one in five permanent staff in astronomy being female for women another choice adds complexity at a time which can be make or break for a scientific career. I watch women who are working very hot in the field. And they might take Tennessee leave. They can only work exactly the work hours. There's noise time outside of those work hours on the weekend continue to work, and I think because of the extra mental load that we didn't actually take on at harm this very much detriments their career they might be questioned on their research outputs, even though people on interview panels will say, oh, yes that's taken into account. I don't think it is. Because of the additional mental load that women are taking on. Harm. And so I think those needs to be a lot more education to partners who are not doing their Fisher Heim, perhaps women will then actually have more mental energy to be able to be more productive at work. Is this a worry for you personally? Absolutely. I very much want to have children that I am very concerned about how will impact my career. And I don't think any career is worth losing out on this amazing life over -tunities to start a family. The timing is very critical for early to mid career women. Isn't it exactly? This is when we need to be making our biggest impact in the field and impressing upon people within their institute that they are somebody astronomical community wants to continue to have on to be making discoveries. But that is also the exact time that women need to go. Okay. Am I going to have children or am? I not only has Jemma been thinking about these issues. Own research is turning out to be surprisingly useful to astronomers who can't be at their posts twenty four seven Jeff. Built robotic systems that control telescopes. So they can observe energetic transient events in space automatically without human intervention transient. So these explosive events they really happen at any time possible. And it's always at the worst possible time as well. It's in the middle of the night on Christmas break, that's when these explosions, and and this is where we work on these explosions need to scramble and try and get all of the Ellis copes pointed that these events while people are asleep will people are on holidays. So actually, you're robotic systems making the world more equitable. Astronomers with carrying commitments, I guess, you're right. You can wake up in the morning, and if an explosions gone often space, the telescopes will have taken the observations while you're asleep completely automatically. And so all you need to do is then download the data when you're at work during the day begin to process it as a working parent that sounds absolutely perfect. I let it as much of my job as possible women. Let gemma. Making a tremendous contribution to science, but some still being forced to choose between careers a motherhood. I hope that technology continues to make science more accessible to everyone. Professor green believes that the world of a strong army can only benefit from the full participation of women, and I agree with a as the Chinese said women, hold up half. The sky is insane. That you don't take advantage of that intellectual power. Yes insane. What a waste. It would be and green that should need. Diversity physics? And that report by Natasha Hurley Walker of Curtin university in Western Australia, and the aforementioned brilliant, ruby Payne, Scott wasn't caught way. Back sacked when discovered to be how shocking both married and pregnant.
Suckers for pseudoscience
"This is an ABC podcast. It seems that pseudoscience is having a moment. Anti vaccination groups are as vocal as ever have a set opinion on vaccinations. And that's not going to change. Celebrities are all over. Tv and social media spooking wellness trends in my experience. It's more difficult to heal on the energetic level than the skin which heels knits together. Very quickly for me anyway. Those interventions really have stayed with me and need care and climate change. Denial remains firmly at the center of Public Debate. What is the evidence that you are relying not relying on evidence? Hamish you might think yourself a skeptic but don't give yourself too much credit we're vulnerable to powerful cognitive biases that can do bus into believing dubious claims. Hi I'm son Qatar. And today on all in the mind why we're such suckers for pseudoscience. Dr Michael Goldwater is a senior lecturer at the School of Psychology at the University of Sydney Research Cognitive Science. So how people think and learn. I started by asking him. What defines pseudo. Science pseudoscience is a form of explaining things in the world that blends things that are kind of sci-fi sounding but aren't actually grounded in real evidence so that's different than say religious spiritual beliefs which want you to take things on faith without sort of explanations but pseudoscience often use scientific terms on things like that they're trying to compel you if there was actually scientific behind it but there is not right okay. So what are some common examples of pseudoscientific beliefs? So ones that are very common. That fail evidence are various things like sort of herbal supplements and medicines homeopathic treatments and even in a way people sometimes talk about astrology in ways. That are kind of pseudoscientific where they will try to. Give a real explanation go. No this is really how the planets moving around you know have effects on you. There isn't even a quotes from these English. Police officers around how the full moon leads to more crime rates. Right so as idea that in the full moon there's more crime and then people tried to explain this with the tides much like the tides in the ocean is controlled by the gravity of the moon while people are full of water you know and so perhaps the full moon will like control you as well. So that's a good example of pseudoscience idea because it ties into a lot of sort of real scientific ideas like the mood and gravity does exp- laid the tides of the ocean. But then it Kinda applies it into this area that really it should be applied to you so for example. The gravity of the moon is the same when it's full versus not full right so so so whatever the mood was doing to you. Would it change because you can see more of it right? So that's what example or think about the notion of catching a cold because you're out in the cold. My family believes yeah. So cert- says the origins of that probably never tried to be particularly scientific at subway right so the origins of that could have just been this other kind of observation. That kind of made sense in a way. There was some sort of correlation between the season of winter and people getting sick boar or out in the cold for a long time perhaps had some effects that seems similar to getting sick however it becomes more pseudoscientific when people start blending these notions with a scientific explanations. This is something that I myself realize. I had done right so so we catch colds from vile transmission. It often one of the things that people do is that it's actually much easier to add things to your sort of mental model of how things work than to take things away right so if you have a mental model of one point you live you. Think Oh being cold out in the cold gives you're cold then you have this other piece of information that viruses is how you catch a cold even more likely to blend the two things then have the virus information. Get rid of the previous information right. So what you end up thinking is what I did I realized was I thought. Oh well the being in the cold might make your immune system more vulnerable to the virus so then you have this kind of integrated explanation. That has some kind of folk beliefs about illness in some scientific beliefs about illness in often pseudoscience kind of has this blending where you kind of blend some sort of traditional belief with something scientific and the fact that it has a scientific element kind of gives you more confidence that the whole thing might be true but this as I was saying I realized I was doing this when I was reading about this the literature on these kinds of explanations and go. We're not immune you know. None of us are completely immune to this kind of thinking. Yeah it's interesting because as I said my family very much believes this and even though my husband who's a doctor has since told them that you know that's not going out in the cold is not going to give you cold. That's not actually. What causes it there? Many factors including the fact that You know in cold months. You're cooped up inside with less ventilation that kind of thing plus many other factors. But they're not quite buying it. They still kind of hold fast to the idea that you know going out in the cold without proper warm clothing is going to give you a cold and so there's research into why you know even when you get new information you are still resistant to changing your mind. So how does that work out? Part of it is this notion of generally right people create these explanations for things and I said You you know. People are happy to add more pieces to it. So they've kind of happy to go. Okay well here's another element of this puzzle but it's very hard to sort of get rid of the previous bid. There's a bunch of different reasons. Some of it is. There's just a purely kind of cognitive thing where it's actually takes a lot of cognitive resources to totally reshape your mental model of something. But then there's also these sort of motivated more sort of motivated reasons for doing this. Where if you've held onto a belief and it's important to you in some way right then you don't want to kind of give that up for its role because then you'd have to say we'll have. I been spending my life. You know taking all these all these times you like. Did it go? I'm not going to go out there because it's cold. You missed out on something right so you sort of kind of cognitive dissonance around what you've missed out on because of these beliefs but also it's possible that you know it's gone pretty well right so maybe there are these times where you haven't got out in the cold and haven't gotten sick because there are people out there who was sick so if for example flu season happens in the winter then there is correlation between getting sick and going outside in the cold. If you isolate yourself you are less likely to get sick. And so if you have this heuristic that's been successful for you or at least appears to have been successful for you. Even if you didn't really track how many days I go out in the cold and how many days that I get sick you know. It feels like if you give that up you'll be leaving yourself as more vulnerable so there's a sort of host of reasons and if this is something you were told as a kid as I was it can be especially hard to kick the belief Dr Goldwater explains why there's evidence that children when they're first learning about the natural world about life versus like what's what's a living thing was not a living thing. They tend to inflate life with animosity and movement. So things that move around a lot you know like animals are living but things that don't are not in so you have kids who don't realize that plants are alive so plants in rocks more sort of seen as similar to each other. Because they're both neither of them sort of move around on their own and so there's this interesting experiment where they took up people and SORTA okay. You have to look at a word on screen in the job is just to say as quickly as possible whether or not that word is living thing or not a living thing and it'd be things like rocks and rivers and mice and You know trees whatever all these different things and people were much faster to confirm the living and nonliving things that can that conform to your childhood conception where moving things like animals. Were very easy to say. Yes that's alive and not moving. Not Living things like Iraq. Were very fast to say. That's not alive but plants were sort of slower to say it's alive and you were more likely to get it wrong if you're being told the press buttons as quickly as possible you might just you know not quite hit the right thing. If you're trying to go really quickly and that as opposed to rivers on the other hand people were were more likely to mess up and say river was alive now. This was originally just undergrads but then they also did this with biology professors from Yale and Johns Hopkins and they showed the same basic effects right so if biology professors at prestigious universities are going to slip up with these With this basic question of what's alive if you know of anyone in the world knows this. It's the biology professor right. Then you sign that these earlier belief. The earlier way that we've conceived of the world never really goes away so even when we learn it's become even experts in science and we have the scientific framework to reason with the sort of earlier conceptions are always still there. You know you have to actually you got to it's actually mentally effort full to inhibit those earlier conceptions in just use the kind of later the thing you sort of. Learn later in life Through formal education. Then there's also a number of cognitive biopsies or common errors and thinking that make it easy to fall for pseudoscientific beliefs. So there's a few different things at play here. One is humans really like explanations for things that sort of help them predict things right so so we do this all the time. We're constantly thinking about cause and effect so in the social world for example. Let's say you take someone's doesn't text you backing. Why are this person texting you back right away? You can still this little bubbles on the phone. We're constantly searching for explanation. Or we think about our actions and we really care about. Is this prediction from what action we take in what outcome we get right and so one thing that this leads to is doesn't include. What would happen if you didn't do that? Action so so. Think about the notion of say herbal medication. I've talked about that right so someone tells you. Herbal Medication will help you. Get over your cold right if you take a herbal medication. And then two days later. Your coldest better go. I took the medication to two days. Later I buy coal got better right. You did it action and then this outcome happen and you link the two things together with this cause and effect relationship now with that isn't really Telegu. The biological have is they. Don't think a wait. What would have happened if I didn't take their medication. Well you probably would have gotten better in two days just the same. So this is why. In the scientific method we have controlled conditions and randomized controlled trials. You give half the people the medicine it half the people not the medicine right and you see. Does the recovery change right but this took centuries of mythological development to make this the standard so we have this bias towards focusing on actions and outcomes which can lead us to attributing causing effect. That isn't necessarily their their name for that biles that's just an illusory causation. Where we're sort of interpreting a causal effect when there isn't really want so let's call it the illusory causation or correlation. There's also this notion. Call the illusion of explanatory depth. Which is this sense that we hold have that we kind of know how the world works around us because we can successfully interact with the world so for example as people. Hey No toilet. Works go. Yup and they will work You Know You. You press the figurehead. The water goes somewhere. Then you realize you have a sense of how it works because you interrogatory and you do successfully almost all the time and so it gives you a sense this you said you'd never know it so so at first you have the sense you understand things and then when you sort of interrogate them you realize you don't actually understand a lot of things and so because of that we're actually happy with quite shallow explanations for things or even aware when we don't understand things so if someone provides a a very simple explanation for something as long as it kind of fits with our general ability to interact successfully in the world that feels pretty good and we can just go about our day. Another common bias is called the naturalness bias to the General Biases. Natural stuff is good and artificial stuff is bad right now. That's a decent humoristic has for example. If you I think it's Mark Pitman the food writer talks about how if you WanNa really quick and easy way to figure out if something's healthy just look at the ingredients and if there's a bunch of words that are all words you recognize that it's probably good for you but a bunch of things are just like a bunch of weird chemicals and stuff like Oh. Maybe there's something off with this now. That's not really a scientific explanation. It's just this kind of horrific that helps you make a shortcut. You're listening to all in the mind. I'm Santa Qatar and I'm chatting to Dr Michael Goldwater from the University of Sydney about the many cognitive biases. That can trick us into believing pseudoscientific claims. Another general bias related to this whole happiness with shallow explanations or lack of explanations. And why we fall for pseudoscience. Also we'll just have to kind of trust that somebody else knows something right. No one is an expert in everything even if you're a doctor or cognitive scientists even my own field you don't have time to read every paper and inspect the quality of the methods of every paper. You come across so you have to trust that somebody else knows this well and given that we do that in science if someone just seems trustworthy and they tell you something go okay. I don't totally understand it. But this guy this guy understands it that seems you know five right so part of our lack of understanding is under kind of distribution of cognition in the population where we get that. There's different kinds of experts and we all have to rely on testimony of expert in that case. Sometimes we're just choosing the wrong experts to believe right. Yes yes so in that case yeah exactly. So let's say you're very charismatic. Movie Star and you know obviously the same qualities that make you charismatically these other industries. Help you sell these other kinds of beliefs as well. So that's a good segue to feel like you can't really have a discussion these days about pseudoscience without mentioning group which is of course actress. Gwyneth paltrow's lifestyle brand. That's now Netflix. Series looking at wellness trends including energy healing. Cold therapy all sorts of stuff. I'm curious given the popularity of of things like. Are we becoming more prone to believing in pseudoscience now than ever before or does it just seem like that because the Internet makes this information so accessible? Yeah so there's always been exactly what he said. I think there's always been examples of very popular pseudoscientific beliefs. Now we're sort of in an era. Where because there's so much available information we're kind of in this era where there's both lots of suicide it's like. Goop. Lots of discussion about how we all kind of also know that is pseudoscience. There's aspect to where I think under researched thing in this area that I've been talking to. Why research is this kind of notion that I don't really believe it but it's fun to sort of act like I. Do you know where people I know. This energy healing doesn't really work or do these crystals. Oh do anything or I kind of know that astrology. Is it really? You know predicting anything but then still find it. Really Fun to like look at Astrology. Means instagram. So you're sort of willing to entertain these beliefs in the moment at the same time. Some people certainly really do believe these things right so there's sort of a spectrum where people seem to really hundred simply these things or just kind of are in there going. I don't really think this is true. But you know it's kind of a fun thing to do but also compared to previous times. I mean think of the example of phonology right so phonology. You never had scientific basis if you remember. This was like a nineteenth century fake science around. How your skull shape revealed these things about your personality and behaviour and the idea was that your brain was made up with these different sub organs for example. If you had a very large area that meant you were like morally depraved. Or whatever so things like that now. A lot of people thought this despite there was never scientific evidence for it. But then that whole you know says my thought got debunked in the society moved on from there and one of the aspects about the group's physically around the healing is often people who are going to holistic healers or in this case a lot of what they're doing is that they're extremely warm and nice to you right so often. Doctors aren't always war. There's evidence that doctors don't believe people about their chronic pain and this is often very gendered in so then you have someone who listens to you and is very warm about it. You know acting like a very close friend. Sometimes what you're doing is you're respond to how nice it is to someone to think about your problems. It seems anecdotes and stories. Also play a role in convincing us to believe things we might otherwise not. You've done some research on the power of anecdotes and anecdotal information on medical decision. Making and you find that. They're pretty powerful and that's interesting because actually goop if you watch. The NETFLIX series uses a lot of anecdotes in case studies to support a lot of the claims. That are being entertained there. So what did you do? And what did you find in that research so we generally know if you try to convince people that something? So if you're doing the group thing we were trying to convince somebody of something if you have an anecdote that's consistent with the data. Lots of research on persuasion has shown that if you include anecdotes that are consistent with the data presenting both data and the anecdote together is more convincing than either one on its own however often the case where in medical decision making what that would be concerned with is when anecdotes conflict with the data. So it's not just that occurs. This treatment works generally. And here's the story about someone who used that she minute worked so in our case we described we kind of made up some medical research studies as to tell the people in the experiment but made it sound like a real medical research study. And we're like well. Here's a new treatment for chronic headaches. And you know. Here's the people that get better with treatment etc and then we set now. Here's an example of one of the people from the study. Here's you know Jane. She had chronic headaches was disrupting her life at work etc and then we either said and she took the treatment and she was one of the people got better or she took the treatment. And she's on the people who didn't get better and she still suffered etcetera and so what we showed was actually when you included a positive anecdote that was consistent with the data in this case it had no effect on people's when they thought the medicine was effective. And whether or not they would use it if they had chronic headaches. Those are key measure. What if you had a negative anecdote where the person didn't get better? They made people say oh. Actually this isn't very effective medicine. I wouldn't take it myself now. We made sure to describe that. This person was actually someone the study. It wasn't like an additional piece of Information. We said this is someone who was in this big large scale research study and so they know that this was the only thirteen percent of people that we said didn't get better. So here's a situation where they know it's one of the thirteen percent of people and they know this as embers people got better but just hearing about the details of that person made them not. WanNa take medicine so now. Of course the next step in the research. It's always easier when you're cognitive. Psychologists point out the problem and then the fixing it part is always the harder part right so the next up in the research is trying to figure out ways of of of better inoculating people against the effects of the anecdotes especially because we don't want people for going helpful treatments because of a negative story. That was GONNA be. My next question is their way to counter the power of negative anecdotes. 'cause we we just don't know we certainly know it's easy to say more education but it's unclear how true that is one of the next steps to figure out. How much do they really think this anecdote is relevant? Or how much is this kind of giving them a negative feeling right when you're affected by an antidote? What you are potentially doing is generalizing from single case to your life. And that's the reason why we say. Well you shouldn't use it versus large-scale studies because the large scale study is a better predictor of you know the outcome for you than a single case but all it's possible that it just kind of made you feel icky right you sort of hear bad outcome and go ooh right and then you go. I don't know about this medicine where it's not that thorough of a of a process had it depending how much of it just kind of this makes me feel icky versus a kind of reasoned thing about why this anecdote is actually relevant to you would mean different ways to counter it but we still have to do that. So why do our Brian's love anecdotes so much it because it's simple story we can sort of latch onto and understand the taps into so many things about it? So it's humans love stories where so compelled by narratives because you can identify with the characters. You can see yourself in that situation. There's lots of visual imagery that it evokes feelings that evokes in it's really hard to get yourself in way you know if you think about the whole history of human culture we always tell each other stories. Narratives are incredibly important for passing on our culture in convincing each other of things you know I tried. This isn't at work right. It's a very bonded mentioned to think we should test this with thousand people and see what happens. That's like that's a recent cultural convention. While the idea of convincing someone with a story is you know hundreds of thousands of years old potentially given the power of negative anecdotes and how many cognitive biases play a role in pushing us to believe pseudo sciences. Are we basically powerless to stop ourselves falling for this kind of stuff well perilous but you have to be very rigorous about right? It's extremely easy to fall for it. Especially when it's not clear what the health science really is. You know. The example I like talking about is all the gut bacteria research. It's very new and exciting field. You know. Medicine is being rethought and lots of ways thinking about the power of Gut Flora and. There's a kind of a co evolution of the science and the pseudoscience around it where people go. Everyone should start eating. All these probiotics all the time because Oh gut. Bacteria seems to be linked to depression and there is some link between depression. Anxiety and gut bacteria people then go. Oh if I eat probiotics I'll get rid of my depression. You see the logic now. Sensible that is but there's actually without further testing. There's no reason to believe that you have to just be constantly willing to interrogate your own beliefs in why you came to some conclusions. So if you're aware that we are biased to the shallow explanations we all fall. Prey delusion explanatory all the time. We don't actually understand the things that we think we understand. And so if you're constantly sort of skeptical of your own thinking that is potentially the best way to prevent yourself but you're going to catch yourself all the time you're GonNa read this thing about activated charcoal whatever and it sounds cool and then you know and then you have to go away. That actually wasn't a real thing. And it's a constant battle with yourself in a way to sort of your own beliefs that try to find legitimate expert In time you can. Is it a battle for you as well even being cognitive scientists? Yeah no hundred percent. Anything being signed makes me question my own thinking at all because a lot of research on false memories so I don't trust any of my memory's not any of them but what do all the research on cognitive biases. It's one of those things where I think being aware of all these biases does help you. But it's not a cure. All always in retrospect realized you fell prey to one of these biases. Because these are buys that are so ingrained to how we think. And there's just so much you know cognitive effort we can possibly go through and finally I guess overall. Do you feel optimistic or pessimistic about the influence of pseudoscience and our ability to counter it because for example you mentioned belief phonology and then society move on but we moved onto other beliefs just as soon as sita scientific. How do you feel about where we are? And what we believe. And whether we can counter pseudoscience I mean assuming that there's going to be a civilization left I mean we certainly have lots of mechanisms or countering these things right just like as we were saying. There's lots of mechanisms for spreading false information. You go a youtube. There's just as betty debunking videos as there are videos supporting whatever thing and certainly is the case that if look overall even if there are some recent backwards trends like around the Anti Vaccine Movement of course overall society is getting more and more on the long-term engaging with science right. I mean it's a generally modern convention and there's all kinds of notions. You know thinking about things like statistics like the difference in the median and mean for example. I think that's something in fifty years ago your average person on the street. You know you're talking about but these are these concepts from statistics That have permeated. So there's all kinds of spreading of good of regime in so the anti boxers while they're very compelling this sort of anti-science zealots are the minority. They're very loud minority. Most people I think are very open in wanting to use science in terms of their health. It so that suggests that education should be effective because when education isn't effective is typically when people have very strong invested beliefs the other direction but I think in the M- majority case people just want the right information so that makes me optimistic cognitive scientists. Dr Michael Goldwater from the University of Sydney. And that's all in the mind for this week. Thanks to producer Diane Dean and Sound Engineer Isabella. Triano I'm Sonic Dr. Keep that skepticism healthy and all catching time but when it comes to talking to friends and family who perhaps have pseudoscientific beliefs. It's very easy to be derisive of this kind of stuff and that just makes people defensive doesn't really change anyone's mind so you as a cognitive scientists. How do you handle those kind of conversations? Well sometimes you don't even get into it you know avoid. You're hanging out with people you don't want to be. You Know Debbie Downer at the dinner party or whatever when someone talks about Oh. I'm feeling much better because these crystals or whatever you know you don't want to say well actually. I don't think that's a real thing. And here's why because that's kind of just a socially brew thing to do but it's true if it is actually situation. That seems really important for this person like they're really going to forgo then so there is this notion this Matthew Michael Hornsey at University of Queensland who does work on Jujitsu persuasion he called. It's you know in Jujitsu us. Someone's force against them so the idea is to kind of reframe arguments to ally because when something conflicts with the values of somebody else or things are you can sort of reframe. What you're doing in terms of their worldview so a good example of that would be something like oh talking about the economic consequences of not acting on climate change for example right so if someone says I like everybody to me that you can so actually. Here's all these sort of you know as opposed to just all these other aspects which are like you know. We're going to force migration refugees all these other horrible things now that seems to be somewhat successful in some cases but sometimes not the case that some people really are open minded right so sometimes there's the wrong information but you are just happy to learn the right information other times you're very invested in the idea and you're not just happy to learn the right information and so in those cases anytime you can reframe something in terms that person's worldview that helps or again focusing on this negative consequences use the power of negative anecdotes are your favorite right right. Yeah exactly exactly. Can you reframe the negative anecdote to be aligned with what you care about? You've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great. Abc. Podcasts live radio and exclusives on the ABC Listen Up.
Ruby Payne-Scott born - May 28, 1912
"He was news. I would like to tell you about a new podcast from APM called decomposed hosted by rockstar, pianist, Jade Simmons, decomposed, breaks, down the secrets scandals and acts of sheer genius that have shaped classical music in the first season, they explored the uptight gender expectations of the eighteen hundreds, the role of classical music in Cold War propaganda, and the danger of putting your personal life on the stage. It's a unique mix of powerful human stories and powerful music that will give you a new appreciation for these classical masterpieces. You can find decomposed on apple podcasts or wherever you choose to listen. The stay in history. Class is production of heart radio. Hi, I'm eve, and welcome to this day in history class a show that uncovers a little bit more about history every day. Today is may twenty eighth twenty nineteen. The day was made twenty eighth nineteen twelve. Ruby violet paint. Scott was born in Grafton, New South Wales Australia to Amy and Cyril Herman pain, Scott ruby would go on to become Australia's first female radio, astronomer in the early nineteen twenties. Ruby's family moved to Sydney. She attended Sydney girls high school where she graduated at age sixteen after getting scholarship to attend the university of Sydney, she enrolled there and began studying physics chemistry math in botany in nineteen thirty-three, ruby got her bachelor of science degree from the university with first class honours in physics in math three years later, she received a master of science degree in physics and a couple of years after that she got a diploma of education. Australia was hit hard by the great depression in the nineteen thirties. But rubies, still managed to find work as a physicist with the cancer research committee at the university of Sydney, where she worked from nineteen thirty six to nineteen thirty eight there. She researched radiation, which had been identified as a treatment for cancer near the beginning of the twentieth, century. But when the research projects shut down, and she was unable to find work. She began teaching at Woodland's turt- of England girls grammar school in Adelaide, but in nineteen thirty nine she returned to physics research. She began working as a librarian with amalgamated, wireless AustralAsia and Sydney in electrics manufacturer in two way radio communications systems operator becoming the only woman on the company's professional staff. But at this time World War, Two was gearing up in nineteen forty one she was appointed research scientists in the. Division of radio physics of the council for thion typic-, and industrial research or the S. I R to do research on radar a new defensive weapon. She also worked in solar, Johnny and research, on writer, calibration and the youth of interferometry to locate hostile plane positions. She became an expert at recognizing Japanese aircraft from other sources of radio static. Through her work on small signal visibility of radar displays and the measurement of receiver noise. Factors ruby linked up with Australian scientists Joseph ill Pasi. They carried out. What could be considered the first radio astronomy? Experiment in the southern hemisphere in nineteen forty four to break down these fills of study radio. Astronomy is the study of celestial objects that give off radio waves radio physics is a branch of physics concerned with the properties in application of radiation, ruby focused on solar noise and its correlation with sunspot activity. Her work was integral in the discovery of type one two and three solar bursts other notable work includes her research, with Pasi and Lindsey McCreevy where they introduced the use of forty-eight synthesis into radio astronomy. Ruby also helped create a device called the swept, lobe interferometer, which allowed. Radio. Astronomers identify in observe single way formations, despite paint Scott's pioneering, work radio, astronomy in Australia, at the time was subject to isolation. And Australian journals were not widely read in nineteen forty-nine CSI are became the Commonwealth Scientific and industrial research organisation, or CSI are, oh, ruby soon. Ran into some conflict that would lead to her resignation. She secretly married. William hall, a telephone mechanic in nineteen forty four. The two were feminists environmental conservationists atheist in left leaning. In fact, her colleagues called her red ruby because of her suppose it communist sympathies, but public service rules required. Women to resign when they got married when CSI our management found out about the marriage in nineteen fifty she was pulled from her permanent position and became a temporary employee. She left. The organization and radio astronomy, the next year when she was pregnant, she wrote the following to the CEO of the I. R O, I am of course, sorry to give up the research work, I have been doing an also to leave the laboratory where I have been so happy in have so many friends, if all goes, well, I do not expect to be returning to radio physics, at least for some years, when she left, she had one of the highest salaries of the scientific staff who were on the administration by nineteen fifty three. She had her second child and see stayed home to raise the two of them from nineteen sixty three to nineteen seventy four paint Scott taught math and science at Dane Bank church of England school for girls. She died of pre senile dementia in nineteen Eighty-one her son became a statistician and her daughter and artist. I'm each Jeffcoat in hopefully, you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. And here's an additional know about ruby Payne, Scott. She has been called the first female radio, astronomer anywhere though. Some people would argue that that title belongs to Elizabeth Alexander. Get more notes from history on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook at TD I h the podcast thanks again for listening, and I hope you come back tomorrow. For more delicious morsels of history. For more podcasts from I heart radio. Visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows greed, and obsession lie at the heart of the feather thief, a page turning account of a museum, heist, that reads like a classic crime thriller, the feather thief dramatically recounts, theft of rare bird, feathers coveted on the black market. The man determined to possess them at any cost and the surprising history of commodity once worth more than gold declared absorbing by NPR and fascinating by the New York Times the feather thief is now in paperback wherever books are sold.
Gut contents of white sharks reveals food choices
"We begin with a big lunch. Great White Sharks, and yes, sadly another human being killed just weeks ago in new, south Wales, but it's a rare event. and. Now scientists at the University of Sydney analyzed what they usually eat those sharks, here's Professor David robot higher to introduce how it was done. Richard Grainger's the PhD student is done this work in collaboration with the Department of Primary Industries in New South Wales. Works in my lab. So what have you done with chocks well? Did is work with the Department of Primary Industries to collect the gut contents of sharks that had died for other reasons, and then analyze the foods, and also the nutrient content the sharks. This is a pretty challenging thing to do the rest of our work. We've shown that animals both in the lab, and the wild of nutrient specific appetites that direct selection of foods. We've done this in the lab for inverted predators relatively easy to do. Do carnivorous beetles and spiders vertebrate predators in the lab, but more tricky you can imagine, but luckily we've had an opportunity to study domesticated cats and dogs. They're amenable to these kinds of experiments, but the real challenge is. How do you tell whether and how predators in the wild balancing the Diet? It's easy to do for primates that we do the rest of our work where you can get out and you can watch them the. To your presence, and you can make detailed recordings what they're doing, but try doing that for great white shark, and it's a different story. I can imagine where these mainly. These were exclusively great whites. BICKERSTAFF's that's the species that is associated with bad interactions with humans most commonly new. South Wales, and so you to them what you find well, the first thing you find is what combinations of foods they eating, and how much of each and then what you can do is take those foods to the Nutrient Analysis Bara, Trie and you can convert their food intakes into nutrient index and. Discovery well process there several surprises as you could imagine not a lot is known about the diets of great white sharks in the wild. The first interesting thing is that the Diet changes changes quite markedly with development with growth with age up until about roughly just over two meters to two meters, they feed exclusively on small fish and invertebrates only when they get to proximity to onto meters. Meters that they began to each other sharks rays in particular awesome in mammals, the first thing is that the foods that they selecting change as they get larger, the second remarkable thing is when Richard looked at the nutrient content of the food that was one very pronounced resort, and that is that the fat content of the Diet increased for larger sharks compared to smaller sharks, so there were. Were selecting foods with a higher fat content for the energy. I suppose for the energy and one of the things we know from studies in laboratory. Is that animals select diets that have a particular balance of nutrients, but the selected balance changes with specific requirements, so for example with reproduction animals in the lab tend to select a diet high in protein, because protein is needed for reproduction what? What the suggests to us in the case of Richard. Study is quite possibly shocks shifting their diet towards foods that are higher fat content to fuel the greater energetic requirements for migration, because the bigger than get the further, they move within the ocean, so suggests to us this is another example we've seen throughout the animal kingdom, non predators in the wild and voice and omnivores of selecting. To support very specific nutrient requirements. Next question well, I'm a journalist. Apologize for any human remains more. It's Van Bella Raw. No, I'm surprised. The frequency, the chances of catching a shark that have human remains in our infinite Disney small. If we had found some I think would be betting on the lottery this week. Because the chances is minuscule, they tend not to like things with big bones like us. And as I said, it's only at a certain stage that they start eating mammals in the first place, and the frequency of shark attacks is is so low that the probabilities of finding human remains in shark are negligible David. Of. This is the first time such studies have been done on. Say what chocolate in such detail, great white sharks, yes, surprising, no, not surprising as I said, it's not an easy thing to do. You need to have access to collections of sharks, and the other thing is that the way that richards done the study using an approach that we've invented yet? University of Sydney called nutritional geometry that has never been applied to predators in the wild. And we'll have more on that nutritional geometry a couple of weeks with David Ruben Harbor and Steve Simpson featuring their new book about appetites, and how you and I have five of them.
The nudge which opened the door to mathematics
"The SANCHO now renwick covert permitting will host this year's top five young scientists this week meet jared field one of them he was the one told no by his maths teacher, and this is what happened next I'm conscious always of how I tell a story. People seem hungry out stories madness. Sad. The one slowing down and out where a little like this one would hold that went on. Whole struggle. With. As the deficit of some sort. And I get it right because at the end of it all where hooping triumph. But I. Think we've got to be careful because if all our stories involve deficit. Then we might begin to wonder if this some truth in it. we less capable. And the answer is, of course not. But I think perhaps silly as it sounds. That we really need to voice. We are not less capable. With all that said, I can say this. India. Ten given the option to move up to the advanced mask loss. I was told that I would struggle that people like me don't really do maths. The suggestion was loaded with all the foul onto tones of a well-meaning racists I will not repeat them here. But this moment is important to note because at the of that lunch break when I was post to say, yes or no to moving up. I wanted to my chemistry class really quite convinced. That high maths just wasn't for me. But then I guess a wonderful thing happened my chemistry teacher at time Miss Slava Chick. Soul that I seem to be it off I guess in awe spots up. I told her and then. Absolutely. Indignant. She made me leave the class. She essentially said go to the mass department right now and tell them that yes. In fact, you will move up Now. Without her encouragement if it had been, for example, a different class, a different teacher off the lunch on that day. I really don't think I would have made it to Oxford. All. Those years later. Anyway. So I moved up in it was quite hot at first, but I had a lot of help. I have wonderful memories in this is gonNA sound. Really odd. But wonderful memories solving cubic equations on the floor of my friend's bedroom. Allah my friend who helped me till then was the top of the advanced class. And Elian, she helped I guess just to. Play, catchup bit eventually she did something much better. She became my competitor. Now. Competition I think mostly is actually quite ugly. But with the right person. I think can be a very good thing. And it continued in this sort of way throughout the rest of school, which is to say the right type of competition. But it wasn't really until Uni I think that I discovered that I really enjoyed maths in an audit self. The first thing that really shocked me guess Max's really good at this I think leaving you shocked. was learning that there are different size infinity's. That's still amazes me today. Eventually the became increasingly attracted to the utility of mass. To me that's where all the real beauty is. Many mathematicians waxed lyrical about oilers equation and things like this but that just doesn't do it for me. For me it's the uncanny usefulness that holds all the beauty. I remember, for example, taking a class on Tony Dynamics. In being absolutely amazed predicting how planets moved in this sort of thing. or a fluid dynamics, kloss, and learning about possible US law. Now. This shows that with simple flow through pipe. The flow rate is proportional to the radius rates to the fourth power. So if for example, the radius of your autry decreases the extra work, your hot must do to compensate. Does. Not. At all increase jus- linearly. So that trip to McDonald's is actually much worse view than you think. Off to the University of Sydney I, then made it to Oxford bride did my doctorate. Now, a doctorate can be various laborious thing sometimes. You need more fuel than just passion to get through. And part of it I guess was proving that teacher. Wrong. But by that time, really I was doing maths just for the pleasure of it. And also because it allowed me to answer questions that just seem to bother me. A LOT OF QUESTIONS I purchased Oxford. As now I guess, have to do with evolutionary biology. For example, why do we leave? So long past Minna polls how we evolved deal with risk. How to trees grows and they don't topple these sorts of questions. As I said, questions that still played me. In a good way of course. But mass remain well and truly put to rest the question that originally bothered me. we less capable. Where absolutely capable But more importantly I think in. Gave me something not only that I'm good at or pay bills but also something that I enjoy. Now. There's a bit of a funny stereotype amongst blackfellas retains each other a lot about my mob soon, Guler Murray's, and it says sort of that. We don't forget a damn thing. We can be quite petty at times and. I guess also we hold grudges. And ended up in think turning maths into something that gives me joy. I can't think of a better revenge. The best revenge. Yes. Field made it bellio college in Oxford, an ancient college with strong links to the ABC science unit, and he's now a top five scientists with us.
Jet Lag Science: Light Therapy, Celery, and Meditation
"From wondering, I'm David Brown, and this is business wars, daily, happy Friday, everyone. World travel is tantalizing, isn't it? There? Thousands of Instagram accounts dedicated to it luring people into believing their round the world. In eighty days. Dreams are possible, but there's that downside to exploration endless flights in jumbo case of jetlag Qantas Australia's national airline recently embarked on an experiment to prevent jetlag or at least make it more bearable. Partnering with researchers from the university of Sydney Qantas recruited one thousand volunteers to track their moods and diets. During long flights, researchers also monitored the volunteer sleep activity and posture with sensors. You've probably heard some of the supposed- ways to fight jet lag, like taking melatonin and not sleeping in, but those methods don't work for everyone and they're mostly for when. You're back on the ground. What else could make a difference? Well, natural light helps. So premium customers can get free flight light therapy and quantities. New Boeing, seven eighty seven Dreamliner 's have extra large windows lighter meals and certain foods. Also matter, new menus, feature foods, high in water, content like celery and strawberries, and Qantas loaded guided meditations into its inflight entertainment system. Nice. But inconsequential you say, jet lag, fighting features are the latest tools in the fierce rivalry between airlines Qantas's scrapping with United Airlines for lucrative business passengers among them flyers from Silicon Valley to Australia. Both airlines have nonstop flights between San Francisco and Sydney, but on September first Qantas up the ante by launching a direct flight from San Francisco to Melbourne. Competition is steep despite upset over United. Dragging customer down the aisle. Remember that United remains a popular international carrier. It started flights on the Boeing seven eighty seven Dreamliner before Qantas did giving it an early edge. Qantas has a better safety record and anecdotes better service, but ultimately ticket prices are key. One big question is whether Qantas's jetlag research is more than a public relations done or whether passengers will really feel refreshed when they land. If so, we may see more fruits, vegetables and meditation. When all airlines compete for our business. From wondering, this is business wars daily. This week's episodes were written edited and produced by lane Appleton grant, Ginny lower is our editor producer. Our executive producer is Marshall Louis raided by or non lupins for wondering, I'm David Brown. We'll see next week.
Super Secret X37B Flies Again
"Love this podcast. Support this show through the ACOSS, supportively Joe. It's up to you. How much you give and there's no regular commitment. Just hit the link in the show description to support now. Fifteen seconds guy internal. Ignition sequence. Space Nuts. To Radio. report it feels good. Once again, thank you as always for joining us on the space. Nuts podcast. It's all about astronomy episode episode. Two hundred three I, might add my name's Andrew Dunkley, and with me as always professor Fred, what's an astronomer at lodge? Afraid Hilarious Andrew Goes We. Do we do more than just astronomy? We do on space, science and bit of physics and. Casually talk about relationships and things like that. And Birds. Turns. Well we'll do anything anything and cats hats get a mentioned actually the. He's fast asleep on the lounge of them, so we're probably not going to hear much from him. How very unusual for a cat. She's strange. Isn't it off? It is rather. On a little bit excited today Fred, because we actually get to US I ever audio question his not grab because we now have people in what we now have a service way. You can log onto a website and. Your question with your own voice, and we can drop it into the program and we gotta do have very first one of those today, which is yeah, a little bit of a a different way of doing it, but I think it's great that we'll be able to hear the voices of the people who listened to the podcast. That fantastic, we'll get into that lighter. There's also got question about Stoffel nation. That has got one of era. Youtube is. Confused. I will see if we can solve that problem and we got to talk about How Stars is one particular cluster of stars? That's doing something a little unusual. I'm not sure if that means. It's seeing no releasing a pop album most something to that effect, but we'll we'll find out, but the first thing we want to talk about. Today is x thirty seven B. The spice applying Fred. This was launched on Sunday from Cape Canaveral on its think, seventh mission, and this is the all mysterious unmanned remote controls soul of flying. That I think in its last mission was in spice for over seven hundred days. That's right it always. Intriguing when this remarkable vehicle is launched because. We don't know why it's. The last which makes it hard to do a whole segment on? Could make all kinds of things the last time it was launched. I think you talked about on the podcast because we always tend to home in on this extraordinary. Space shuttle, you know it's a quarter of the size of the of the traditional lassus by shuttle. In fact was originally designed by NASA was very quickly taken over think by Darpa, the research defence research agency in the United States and promptly became top-secret. It's called the x thirty seven B and Basically is a quarter size replica of the space shuttle. A few design changes it launches on top of a standard rocket, and if I remember rightly, this one is on top of an atlas rocket from the you'd night United Launch Alliance. Yes. Annapolis five rocket and he's also got another. National Security ally in the the pilot by, but as you said Launched. On Sunday, a declared a success, an hour and a half after liftoff, it would be well into orbit by then because it only takes. Less than ten minutes usually to get to some of these things. That's an initial of it, but he's probably in his final bit now. So at the last time it went, it went up. When the media, the defense agencies, what is mission was down to was testing. That's an open ended answer testing. Could mean anything. Yeah, that's right so. The you know the the the missions are all all about your. They're all they're all about checking out technologies and things of that Solo and one reason why it excites me. The this sort of thing is taking place. Is because. You know you can look back on technologies that have been developed for military space missions, which are now common parlance in in civilians based flight. so whatever is learned from the executives have been mission might very well standards in good stead one day, and the sooner the better in terms of you know how how you maneuvering spicing I, think the original mission for the ET I remember rightly years ago now was to look at the dynamics of Olympic changes how you can. Be Nimble in Ovid. Because Changing the orbit, the spacecraft is is not a small matter. You got to put fabulous into it to to to shift it particularly if you change the orbital inclination, so I think that sort of thing. Is the SORTA the of experiments that have been doing and. The. The, the the home base of the X., thirty seven B, the two of them which operated by the air force. The. Home base is the. Space Shuttle Hangar at the Kennedy Space Center, so they've gone for miniaturization and just. Just to just a put a few statistics into the story, first flight was in twenty ten lung further back than I thought it was at least things. Creep up on you. And totally so far they've totaled. Two two thousand, eight hundred sixty five days in orbit. And of course there's another three days assembling since then because that was as of last Sunday and one of the at the. Spokespeople, Jim Chiltern who who is the senior vice president study seven be at Boeing. He said a number of things that quite nice comments on this in as much as you can say. The study be stands on the shoulders of the space shuttle, and from a common shape to a common home. That's a reference to the fact that it lives in the space shuttle hangar at Kennedy, but also says it's if you add up all the missions just under eight years in audit and one billion miles so a lot of traveling by this machine, quite interesting stock incredible. Sorry just one final comment Andrew site to. You might have been about to say this all. Shut up and let you say. Go ahead because I I was just got well I. Was GonNa say this aircraft was space craft was built by Boeing which might surprise a few people it's. It's a Boeing plein. And when you go to the Boeing website. It's got a On the front page says purpose the purpose of the study seven Bay, it's three lines. It's a three line explanation of the purpose of the X.. Thirty seven. Bay, yes, I, they not letting a lot of information. Get out too far. They and when you when you're talking about a vehicle that's operated by. You know. The US Defense Department and Air Force through the Pentagon. It does sort of. Set off a little alarm bell in the back ahead. What else is going on up? There is is the first question that POPs in the. That's right. This is just the tip of the iceberg. This is just A. Bit having a replica, which we should mention completely remotely controlled during the hostages involved, but a replica of the space shuttle doing extraordinary things you know things you know, and then doing it's it's a landing in exactly the same weather. I shuttled it gliding down to a to a touchdown remarkable stuff, the only other thing I was going to add. To to the comments, Andrew is I think this. Launch of the exit seven be a was under the auspices of the new Space Force in America. Ignored I think it's operated principally by the F. O.'s, but I think I'm right in saying that this is the second. Yeah, This is the second rocket launch for the new established spice false. the first one was backing Maher show. Space for as has got some got fingers in this bio, Israel. Wish we should be lovely to know what he's up to. And once again anything involving spice comes up with a fantastic nine. That sounds like something from a big ride science fiction film. Space Force Base Force. Does yeah. I did see one little article about this particular mission, and it said something about experiments in space involving seeds. That's all I know. It doesn't really say much more that. Right. and As, you say it's a about the size of a pickup truck truck. What might surprise a lot of people? Is that this This concept I came into play in nineteen, ninety nine, so this is Ms Benner long-term venture and it took them another. What as I live. To to get one into into orbit. So? It is quite remarkable, but if this if there's some sort of benefit to future space, travel or humanity in general, it's it's certainly something. that. Needs to be endorsed for you. Do you do continually tend to? Have A. Seat of debt in the back of your mind, and that's not the experiments that because of all, because of all the secrecy doubt, ooh, But there's so much secrecy and. When you're talking the Pentagon fair enough, but you you do have to one out. What else is going on? You know working on new spice based weapons or something that a yeah. It's all subject to speculation that I told though the wasn't assurance. It was a number of years ago now. Excuse me under. by the Pentagon this was. Nine in the In advance of one of the early stages of That they want testing weapons that was. An assurance that was given so that may or may not be true now, but certainly for that particular nation. Nothing on board that could choose self down a probably not now. Now but. We watched with interest. Look, it's not. They're not hiding. It I mean you had to your heart or rocket launch. A Cape Canaveral it's. It's pretty obvious when it happens, but. You, there's there's plenty of footage of this thing, and it's a pretty sleek machine and it they talk about it. They just Cape some of the actual hands on stuff that they doing. Completely away from prying eyes and ease so And that always leads to were conspiracy theories in the like, so yeah secrecy always seems too late to some kind of. Conspiracy Conspiracy Theory, doesn't it? Comes and well conspiracy busting is part of our job here on space nuts, Andrew so. I mean the probably plenty of conspiracies around thirty seven. If we knew any more than we already under, they'd have to kill US anyway so probably I wish you hadn't said that out loud, but anyway. We don't know how long this mission is going to be either. Nothing. I could be up there for a couple of years. which is what happened last time so? We will. We will review the data once it comes back will not really taxed. Yes it's. It's up there for testing. Listening cartel anymore. You're listening to spice nuts. With Andrew Dunkley and Fred Watson. Now, let's take a little break and find out more about our sponsor. Express VPN rated number one by tech writer. This is the one I use I've been using it for a couple of years, and I love it when I joined expressive AP, and now our brand new new to the market, but I read a lot of reviews and did a lot of comparisons. And it was just something about the business model that I particularly liked and. Down the track on. Can't complain. Their interface is very easy to use. The service is second to none. I've had to contact them a couple of times about certain things that I wanted to do, and I were brilliant, so you may be wondering why I do need a VPN at all. It's all about privacy. Do you really want big tech companies, governments and others knowing. What's going on with your online activity? Even if you're having nothing to hide, it just feels downright creepy I think you'll agree. And governments are getting more and more interested in what you're doing every day and so protecting your privacy is what VPN is all about. And how often do you run across websites that you want to get information from define that GEO blocked. This is becoming an increasing problem, but expressed. Fabian solves that problem for you. Now. If you got to ask special URL, you'll see quite a list of things. This service can help you with things you might never have thought before as I say, it's the one I use secure fast, and it just works. So protect yourself online today and find out more about how to get three months free at try. Express VPN DOT com slash space. That's T. R. Y. E. S. P.. R. E. S. P. N. dot com slash spice for three months with a one year package. Try Express VPN DOT. com slash space to learn more, and you'll find the link details in the show and on our website now back to the show. Own! Nuts once again, I'd like to send a big. Thank you to all patrons who basically support the podcast through Patriot dot com slash space nuts to the tune of you know a handful of dollars a week. Or month I should say and we do appreciate your support now some people have come to us and said Look I. I'd rather do it through super cast, and so have now got a super cast page, which is space. Nuts dot, super cast dot tick. If you would like to support the podcast that platform there's a thirty day free trial which you can cancel anytime and you'll as are other patrons. Do get access to the back catalogue. Weekly new episodes ahead of the general release. Bonus material and it's a one hundred percent commercial free offering, so if you would like to a super CASTA. You can do that through space. Nuts dot super cast dot tech, and it's five dollars a month if you'd like to do it that way. Now, Fred moving on to our next topic and this one I must confess I've read through, and it's the one of the stories that sort of has made a little bit mystified. We're talking about harmonic stars. particularly one particular one star cluster that has. been described as why would in one of the articles that I've read So what is a harmonic star and what's so special about this particular cluster? Okay, so this is about stars, a pop essentially pulsating. In a way that. Is. Almost akin to a quake's on the earth, and it's actually the topic that we're talking about is a branch of astronomy, called Astro Seismology, and that so they give essentially gives you the flavor of it and one of the things that always delights me about talking about Astros. Seismology is one of these principal. Proponents a gentleman by the name of Professor Tim Bedding who's at the University of Sydney Tim used to work together. In fact he was research assistant for me back in. One, thousand, nine hundred eighty s probably we built an instrument for positioning optical fibers, which had the strange name of Auto Fred Fred. Fred was a the essentially something to help you position optical fibers in a telescope. We might talk about the another day Andrew but is was great to say ten. In the media because he has? Not Handedly but certainly a been very much a leading exponent of this. He's taken full with the topic of Astro seismology in a big way. This is one of the success stories so. Pulsating stars, many different classes of stars pulse pulsating. Many centuries ago, actually worked on some of them, which country to my PhD at class cold our Larry Styles, which are variable stars, and I pull site. By enormous amount you know so the fifty percent of the diameter. They increased by then entering by repeated about today. So that's an extreme form of pulse fashion, but it turns out that all styles have. Small low level Pulse Asians, including the sun, the sons actually doing this vibration. Level that we can detect because we've got enough light from the Sun to do. Radio Velocity measurements to the surface. That's site. We can use a spectrum graph too bright in the light, some light up a read the Barcode of information in it. And measure the the way the surface is coming towards and away from us and looking at the politicians. If I remember rightly, the son has a basic pulse Period of I think something like eight minutes that sort of ordeal. It's just one down slightly. But when you look at the science of Astros, seismology and this is what Timmy's group at the University of Sydney downgrade work that you find that it's not just something expanding and contracting. They're all these different kinds of modes of oxidation will take place within styles and. Tim's group of produced over the years some. Really NEAT little video simulation showing the way these towns vibrate, and it's almost like some of the wiggled the hip hip, some of them, a swelling one way and then shrinking the other. As they pull say. These, are of coast highly highly exaggerated, but they give you an idea of what we call. Modes of pulse is taking place in stars, and this is not constant. Patented. This can be different from star to star. That's right. There is a constant pattern, but what you've got is different modes of Oscillation, all superimposed on top of one another so think about all right at the the basic motive procession, which is astrologist swelling and shrinking. Very clear I'm doing how motion Sieh Andrea. You Imagine. A, but then you can. Just swelling shrinking, but then there will be another mode where along one axis eight swelling, but simultaneously shrinking along the other, so it becomes football shaped. For for a while of for short time, and then shrieks, and becomes football shaped in another direction. What you can go right? We'd better clarify that because in Europe. They'll be thinking well. Let's just round. A rugby bull hearing reward. NFL BILL A rugby ball. Yes, that's right. So? Becomes A non-spiritual for full shack. A vendor of many other different kinds of solutions that can take place. Sort of you know this one I remember seeing in the simulations where Stop becomes passionate at the bottom and then The also changes it so that it's like an upside down. Pat It these these are all different modes of observation, and they can all be happening at once. That's the that's the really just, but you might get a basic mode of swelling and shrinking, but then superimposed on top of that is all these other different modes of relation. DOTS wary or gets interesting now. Cut to the chase in the story that we're talking about. It could take back to NASA's tests space telescope the transiting EXOPLANET, survey satellite. which was built a launched an is operating principally to look for the dips in brightness of Stars as Planets Pass in front of them, and it's been great at doing that, so we've got fantastic results, but because tests is what you might call a foot to metric telescope. That's to say look so the brightness of stars. It's really good at seeing the way styles themselves fluctuating brightness. And as they say, that's what they do, vary very slightly style. As, pulsating these astro seismology modes will change slightly in brightness, and so what you can do is plot what we call the light curve. This is the way styles brightness changes over time and. Then you find that he's wiggling up down. But what's complicated about it is that the wiggles potentially can tell you about these different modes of vibration in the star if he can disentangled. and so you know you imagine a price of the light brightness over a long period of time, and you've got all kinds of random wiggles in it. What you're looking for is periodicity in those wiggles in other words he trying to sell, or there's probably a basic swelling and shrinking. That might be relatively easy to find, but then there will be other modes of relation in it, which will be much harder to detect from that from that like of the technique. That's used for this. Is something which is called Fury Transform. And he's all about a process. Called Florida analysis goes by Bolton Hundred Years the technique. was only in the sixties and Seventies. Computer programs were able to do. Florida transforms where you what you're looking for the different frequencies in the nose, and the reason why you talking about Monica, which is how you introduce. The Sandra is that this is exactly what happens in a musical loved so. If you, you know, play on the piano. You can tell even though it's the same note. You can tell the difference between not on the same note played on the trumpet, and the reason for that is because of the harmonica present in the in the node, and if you want it to analyze those in a scientific way, you would. Through a fast transform. So that, you actually can see what different frequencies of there now so that's basically what's being done in this work on looking at vibrations using data from tests, and in particular Timothy's group once. Even more to the chase of looked the particular class of. Variable Stars which are known as Delta Scotty Styles they come from the the the the sort of. The archetypal example of this a bit like the are a Larry Styles mentioned a while ago, named after stock called our allies. Delta's stars get that name from particular star in the Constellation of scrotum. Code Delta's Gucci Delta being full brightest. Of those of those stars which is wise, the fourth letter of the Greek alphabet. So, Delta Scotty Stars of always baffled investigators as to why the the way that pulse ations work, and what Tim and his team have done as Luke too many samples of Delta. He's I think Sixty income writing saying. Of this particular classic styles, maybe not maybe that includes other classes, but they've essentially. Decomposed or analyze the possessions of the stars to make sense of them what Tim Bedding, says the the definitive identification of pulse session modes opens up a new way by which we can determine the masses ages, an internal structures of these stars not is the great strength of Astro, seismology there are things that you can determine from that which give you an independent determination of as he says masses ages internal structure, so what of? Tim Students Daniel Hey at the University of Sydney. A PhD student wrote the software to do this process ninety two thousand light curves. Of the brightness of Stars and essentially got the results, so they want. They've actually worked out. What the poll station modes of Delta squeaky styles as that's a very big asset forward because nobody's understood that before he's great. You know this work is being done. Well not very far from where I'm sitting here in Australia, Wow I also. Understand that this could also be a way of finding planets. Yes, I mean the that's right. You'll find the by the transit method if the planet is passing in front of your parents. But if he's not an gravitationally disturbing, the star than is a good chance that you could do that as well I'm just going. Though to something, he said at the beginning of the story drew. You're right about these appearing in clusters because Delta Scotty Styles basically young stars. And when you look at young stars, you often find that they are still. clustered together like that, you know the Playa Dis that little stock to we can see from all over the world pretty well. not very far from the doors, the bull infecting the Constellation Taurus apply. These young trusted the ten billion or so years old they are still together eventually. These clusters dispersed in the styles. Go their separate ways over time, but. The thing about the Delta Scotty Stars is that they tend to still being clusters until the. You know that the coal association. Of of young stars can be analyzed by these technique. Actually, Tim Budding Scott Away with words says our results show that this class of stars that Saddam Scotty Stars is very young, and some tend to hang around in loose associations that haven't got the idea of social distancing rules yet so. You know Tim's putting in a nutshell. They haven't yet dispersed into the into individual styles. And it was a little bit of the strategy millionaires wealth. As a crash. Yet No. The social distancing referring to a penny way. There is now a fascinating and good that one of your former colleagues. This is. A remarkable piece of work it's. The? Testament to to all of you. and. Will clearly be more to learn from this and more to to gain in terms of of other things that we we look at in the In the White Universe I imagine. Yeah I'd encourage. Anybody interested in following this up to check out the Astros Seismology webpages particularly University of Sydney stuff because you'll see these different posession load that trying desperately to describe the actually played out in animations. It's worth following up. The at I think ABC did a story on it as well on the SCI page, so you can look it up through the. And Broadcasting Corporation Science website also. You're listening to the space. Nuts podcast episode, two hundred zero with Dunkley and Fred Watson. All space nuts, and before we get into questions just. Say to all social media. Follow followers whether they are on Youtube Spice Nuts, fight facebook page, or are part of the face book podcast group space nuts. podcast group on facebook I always miss that up, but it's A. It's a bit of a long winded way of saying that the. Space nuts listeners that created their own environment on facebook to get together and talk and share ideas. Ask each other questions and it. It's a lot of fun. Go to a great many people there now, so if you would like to be a part of the podcast group, space knots podcast group on facebook. Just do a search for that or some know very overt, and and asked to join, and you can also chat with like minded people from from the face. Nuts podcast grip because terrific paypal and We think everybody supporting through whatever social media platform they choose. now one more thing before we hit at first question. Fred new FAM-. You've been a busy boy what happened last week? Well Yeah. I had a an article published in conversation the online News and commentary organization. Which As subtext, academic rigor and journalistic flair. I'm not sure which of those they got from me of. They now have an article on their Australian compensation websites that which is cold technology, international bums, inspiration why astronomy matters in times of crisis and really just you know asking the question well. In an international emergency like the present one. Is The science of the stars relevant? Of course you and I firmly convinced of that and a lot of people are listening to us are but in particular I wanted to draw attention to the fact that. Australia is currently deeply involved in playing a leading role in building. What will be the world's largest radio telescope? The square kilometer array wanted to show how that effort can benefit. A nation is actually focused on containing global pandemic and. Why should be doing that and it turns out of course when you look back through history that strongly. Has Been. A very resilient science survived many many wars, world wars, and the Spanish flus and things of that sort, and we'll survive, but not only survives. It brings benefits to people, which is why astronomy has always a kept up. Really remarkable public support and the article shows why an it's. The answer is in. The title Technology International Bonds An inspiration. Very well done for it and. Actually I I love that website the conversation website it's. It's very much worth visiting. They cover so many topics in depth and talk some pretty interesting papal, so it's called the conversation Dot Com and the strategy edition is easy to find as well so I. Take a peek. Now something else. It's exciting. Fred is the fact that we've gotTA first audio question. A firm people want to ask US questions using their own voice. They can go to the space, nuts, website, and just as long as you go to Microdyne. Readily available through your computer, you can just hit. Stop Recording and tells you name way from and ask the question, and it's as simple as that bites dot com slash spice Nazis out website Y B, I t e s, said combat dot. Com is our parent company. Bought, dot com slash space nuts and record your question there as Fraser from Scotland has done. Hey, I say I'm phaser. How from peterhead? LEGIT Scotland I'm a massive fan of the show of listen to every single episode. The ever done Annan. I look forward to listening to all the other episodes you do in the future. I'll just have a question that I would like you to discuss. Son explained further on one of the episodes. And basically it's. Why does The Sun? Have such little massive iron compared to the overall composition. It seems to be next to nothing like last than one percent, whereas the earth's has thirty percent I'm starting one percent iron by mass, which seems to be doesn't quite ahead. Could you please explain that farther? How that came? About is the do we know why is? Not from you guys seen. Keep up the. GS. Nas to hear a different voice on. On the space nuts podcast. Would you agree for it. It was brilliant. Hearing Fraser. It takes me right back to when I used to live in Scotland I. Don't think I've visited Peterhead, but he says it's a small village. It was it was quite a big town, so. It's good to hear Fraser. Thank you, but it's all it's all it's all relative where I live would probably be considered a small village in the United States, but here it's a provincial city. Forty, two thousand people, but not overly big in the scheme of things but let's get down to phrases, question and I'll just paraphrase the short version of why does the sun have low math? Alot massive on? I would say because the sun is actually a mile, and we'll hide awning, but I could be wrong about that. That's right. Gotcha quite joining, it's my by one. Youtube! Good? So, it all comes about because what the sun is mostly made obvious hydrogen. hydrogens the raw material of the universe. Essentially, the hydrogen was folded in the big band. stars formed from clouds of hydrogen. which are slightly contaminated by other things including iron. So when stars form. Inevitably they are mostly may hydrogen of the the other elements of that from previous generations of stars, which produce the the I in the atmosphere is so that's what star forms from, but the planetary system of a star is just the kind of leftover daybreak, and it's if if you like it largely consists of the things that in the star itself had just come dominance that just you know low level contaminants. But. Particularly the dust which forms around around stars. That's a different you know. It's different matters, silicates mostly, but he's also has quite a high iron content, and that's explaining why the itself has a high proportion of Iran in its makeup. Because, the disc of material, the protoplanetary disk that formed at the same time as soon as the. Sunday is really just. The daybreak that you might almost call it the solid daybreak. That that doesn't. Full part and parcel of the star itself, so the hydrogens collapsed into style there will be would still be. Some hydrogen left hasn't collapsed. That's why we get gas giants forming. But. The, the small rocky planets, a just the really tiny amounts of debris that formed that a leftover from the the the formation of the star, probably not explaining not very well, but the bottom line is that stars and planets. Have essentially how different make-up's. It's a great question. It's the first time actually in funded and fifty years of people asking me questions. ME. I think that's the first time. Anybody's ever asked me that so well done it from. Nas Work while Don Prize, and thank you for recording a question on our website, and we hope we get many more. There are a couple I think that we haven't got to yet. some some of the questions we get. We've answered in previous episodes so we if we use your question, that's most likely the reason all we occasionally get people are. The same question sometimes on the same day, and so we will We'll answer those collectively from time to time, so it doesn't mean we're ignoring you and we certainly do appreciate you getting in touch with us with your questions, but sometimes we've already answered them. Well, sometimes we do sort of review them. which is what we gotta do now, you. You mentioned staff, formation, Fred, we have a question from one of L. Youtube followers who recently subscribed? And he he's name. Is goodfellow Jolie? A love. The handles of people on some of these these platforms. Great podcast have been a podcast listeners for several years and enjoy your humor and content adjust. Subscribe I have a question about staff. When I hope you can answer it seems kanter intuitive when you say the gas clouds collapsing themselves due to gravity. Would not the vacuum of space work against any condensation of matter before gravity could coalesce any. A substantial amount Basically it seems any matt. How would boil away? Before, it had enough gravity to support any liquid or solid form. It does some. conjure up some sort of ideas that clouds in spice collapsing on themselves, due to their own gravity would be a counter. Counter move so I suppose in because we did talk about this recently, and it's obviously conjured up some thoughts in people's minds. And it is entirely the stunt double actually when you think about, take so you if you think about. Liquid on the surface of miles. That turns into. A gas on a essentially under the vacuum. Vat Margie's atmosphere does have an atmosphere but it. Is pressure is only one percent of that of the earth, so turns into a gas, but That gas is still cling onto by the gravity of miles. And that's the bottom line here. The gravitational force is. In a sense, it is the most important. Force in the holy of the universe, because it works over big distances, and it is not to be denied is very insistent, and so if you have. You know think of the universe after the Big Bang. You've got. A universe that's laundry composed of hydrogen and helium that that two products of the the Big Bang plus. Dot, matter, which is in some ways the. You know the elephant in the room. He added the other in the room because we don't know what it is, but dot Macha has. Does Not Interact in the same way as as normal matter accepted its gravitational pull, and we think that it was actually the don't matter. That formed the seeds of where galaxies grew so. The mattress self clumped together after the big. Bang we, we see evidence of that throughout the history of the universe, and that drew the hydrogen to audit, and it's all about gravity gravity of comes everything pretty well, including the tendency of things to evaporate into the vacuum of space. The bottom line is that it's not evaporation process. We're talking about we. We starting off with clouds of gas, and they indeed collapsed on their own gravity the. The, PULL, of the. Of. Each individual atom of hydrogen on the next one is sufficiently strong that the over welcomes any tendency to disperse until you get this condensation a collapse. As the collapse takes place the pressure gradual increases the pressure increases temperature increases, and that type star suite jaw, and we see you know. This is such a well established mechanism for star formation. That it is very much part and parcel of the. Just the accepted wisdom of the way things happen in the universe. We see evidence. From. Many many different telescopes of this process actually happening can so the see taking place you only to think of the. Those fantastic pillars of creation the images that came from. The Hubble telescope. You're actually seeing exactly the same process there and they're those gas. Clouds are quite dusty, which is why? We've got those opaque fingers that. Actually, you can see through the infrared. But e can see that stuff. Omission is taking place on this gravitational collapse. I, you know I don't know whether the answers goodfellow Jelly squish. But it is the way works and I. Guess what I would point to is the mathematics of this the you know the theory is well established. It works. It is the way styles full. Wouldn't you love frayed as an astronomer to be able to get so close as to see that moment when the star is born inside the clad a now you say we can say stop formation, but we we we. Surely cannot see that exact moment all of initiation or ignition. Whatever it is that the star the thing is that that that? The process of the initiation ignition is a good way to put it because that's what is the nuclear processes sweet John. It probably takes a million years. Oh so I thought it would be something that happened like snap. What what is going to happen is that you will get this cloud of gas which will have? Temperature differentiation in it. And the center at the core of it, that will be high temperatures that you start to get nuclear processes, but that. I think the process to get from there. To something that looks like the sun is probably quite long i. need to check this because I'm sort of thinking about things that I learned many many decades ago. But yeah. Tens of thousands hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of years. I think would be the switch on time. Maybe not quite as much as that look, but it's not. It's not an instant something that would happen gradually over time as more and more of the center of the cloud switches on. And I suppose depending on the density and size of the clouds would. Result resulting how many stars it's got to create. Over time to some extent, the massive stars early creates we know that in the early universe really high, Mass Stars Twenty, thirty times, the mass of the sun were commonplace, and they don't last day. These supermassive stars burn up that fuel very quickly counter intuitive. You'd think they'd lost a long time, but they don't a. they're very energetic. Make copious quantities of energy. They have satellites for the hydrogen fuel and eventually. Before too long a mattress F-, just a few million years. They'll tell me Supernova, and that's the process. She's spread the. The heavier elements throughout the universe. which is how we get plummets? It's like God and fertilization. Exactly what it is! Thing right. thank you for the question jolly. We really appreciate it was. It was thought provoking gave us. Plenty to talk about Thank you to everybody who's cintas questions lightly. We're going to get to as many as can we we? We've reached a point. We cannot answer all of them, but we certainly do encourage you to record your question on our website. BITES DOT com slash spice nuts that we'd love to hear voices. That's IT Fred, for another week. Thank you so much, so it's a great pleasure. Andrew and he's great to hear our listeners voices I am just thrilled with us, so thank thank you to everybody who's sending questions in their real voices and thanks to you do to for using your real voice to. Yes, certainly not non-real voice, but it is. One that I've stuck with. US to the best of my ability I should also point out with going to upload some bonus material to l., super pastors and patrons so standby for that, but Fred thanks again. We'll talk to you again next week. Great. To undertake cat. That's Fred. What's an astronomer at large? He on the space nuts podcast and thank you for your company. We look forward to joining you again next week on another edition of spice nuts. You'll be this. Is Not. Available. podcast Google podcasts. spotify iheartradio your favorite podcast. You can also stream on demand at. This insane! Another podcast action from thoughts dot com.
Inside an animal testing lab
"This is an ABC podcast on the loose in command. Sydney going bananas on you've looked at the sixth floor. And you've seen the boons showing you may choose afternoon. Three brothers escaped from van at Sydney hospital a mile and his two female companions. That's something you see every day and it also reminded us that we still experiment with animals in quite a big way. I'm Stephen Stockwell down the signal. What animal testing Australia looks like in? Twenty Twenty and why? It's so quiet okay. So no Ange. Today she's not well but she will be back tomorrow. That means though that I've had plenty of time to think about boone facilities which is why. This old fellow had been taken to the hospital in the first place. I'm always certainly can't blame him for trying. It TURNS OUT. He's not the only one who's made a run for it quite a few years ago now when I was working at the University of Sydney occasionally would have shaped come in to the main campus. But the tradesmen who had altered the ramp that was used to move sheep and unfortunately the result was that defense at the end of it was a bit lower than normal. Sheep jumped over there and took off managed across paramedics road and it was essentially. I'm captured down the Greyhound track. It went with pack which would be a good half kilometer paper but fortunately the shape wasn't injured in anybody else. So that's Malcolm Franz. He's a veterinary consultant. Who specializes in looking after animals being used medical research? He's also Chad. Ethics boards that decide whether animals can be used in this way and that story that he just told comes from the time he ran the animal research lab at Sydney Uni. And we'll use end up doing quite a bit of this research funding at exactly how many animals used is actually really hard figures of six or seven million a year get thrown around but it's almost like the nominee deliberately hidden away. One thing we do know is the most of the animals used come from labs just like the one the Malcolm used to run. It was the same as he had finding any university or other place where they keep animals used for research these days that the vast majority of animals us no search aretz months. The boons are extremely small. Minority America is a kepting largish cages. But they all cages that are supplied with filtered air so that there's no risk of them acquiring infections. What did it sound like? They're they're quiet places. The research is going to work. They are restricted access because people worked in have to comply with animal welfare standards therefore to be trained for that so that they're not particularly busy places normally just raise of cages of mice or rats is typical saying so what sort of experiments today get used in a lot of the work particularly cancer. Research is actually looking at the immune system and so typically example not be mouse that's Given a swollen injection of themselves from a cancer that grows up to inaugural at the size of the pay and the animal might be tested with an experimental therapy that it should not have Lena. Raise that to grow much beyond that size and certainly not to the point where it's causing the animal discomfort stress. What about the Prime Tower? They used. I'm not particularly familiar with that program but I do know some of the important word that's being published from. From those from that work is to do transplantation research into transplantation and studies of pregnancy. As well the experiments that you've just mentioned painful for the animals the they are potentially painful but managed with the same sort of use of events anesthesia and pain management. That would be required in veterinary practice or humans were. Their research is governed by National Code and there is a requirement that code which is legally binding that It's assumed that animals perceive pain in some way to humans and that pain is managed in a way that is comparable Wisconsin veterinary medical practice. And what's the process like ago imagining that all kind of University of the same year? But you'll one at Sydney Uni? What was the process for? Researchers were able to wandering and book added animal kind of like a library was the process a little bit more involved. The process is is any university begin with the researcher writing an application to use the malls and that goes to body nine animal ethics committee and that committee has to have people in four categories by law. One is a veterinarian. Second category is an animal welfare. So somebody who's member of animal welfare or affiliated with an Animal Welfare Organization? The third category membership is the cycled layperson category. So that's to represent the person on the street then. The fourth category of membership is a scientist who is not supposed to be there to advocate for science but rather to help assess the scientific validity of the work that's been proposed of. We don't want people doing experiments that are not scientifically valid. That committee will review the application. Usually we'll go back to the research was queries. You know recommendations and so on backwards. Maybe a couple of times but provided. The committee is satisfied at the end of that that it's ethically justifiable and scientifically sound. And I will approve. It said that point the scientists will then go to the manager the Animal Facility and will say to them okay. I've got my ethics approval to do this research. Could you please put an order for me? So you've got these university. These committees that are overseeing these experiments. They're proving research and through that process demanding quite a bit of information about what's actually going to happen. Why isn't that information in my public? So people can sort of see what's being done. Well let's a good question. It is made public in In Europe research is going through a similar process there are now required to provide a summary as they were which is publicly accessible. We don't have that in Australia the way we're not able to get this kind of information I think. Unfortunately it goes back to fears of some of the attacks on animal research facilities in the nineties in the two thousands. We didn't really have those in Australia but there was some particularly nasty ones in the UK and US elsewhere and of course a lot of scientists of work in those countries and they remember the experience of of their colleagues undergoing those sorts of attacks. And there's a fear that the same thing could happen in Australia when they first emerged in the mid nineteen ninety s the environmental extremists calling themselves. The Earth Liberation Front announced. They were the burning rage of a dying planet. Masked members have been known to videotape themselves breaking into research labs where they destroy years of painstaking work and free captive animals in recent years. They've capped off their visits by burning down the buildings. Still they insist they are non violent. But why burn a building down? Aren't you putting people at risk when you do that? It's simply because after years of rescuing animals from laboratories it was heartbreaking to see those buildings in those cages refilled within the following days. Do you think the fees a justify it. I think the whole animal rights movement has moved on from that. I think they realized that that is sort of tactics. Actually they calls and shutdown dialogue. I see far more commonly these days. I'M GONNA rights leaders using the legitimate legal and political processes and I think the animal rights community should be commended for the adoption of those tactics. Where we can have a much more civil and I would hope productive Donald. You need just worried about publicity universities as publicly funded institutions very risk averse and like any big organization. They are worried about adverse publicity but I really hope that the mood is changing and that they will see the benefits of being more open about things like animal research that the community get a better idea of you know have. The Textile is being spent and also sufficiently well informed to be able to make up their own minds by having balanced information from both sides. Not just possibly biased. Information from one side to the research is that are doing this work. Worry about the animals I suppose. Do they feel guilty about the way they use. Animals are saying researchers in tears. You know when there had to be killed Most of them oversleep manage a little bit more of an emotional detachment that but the vast majority are very mindful. Work with animals means that working with sentient creatures. And it's not something embark on lately. I don't see it as some kind of dirty little secret or anything like that that they want to keep quiet now fun nice. Research is like my academics Quite happy to talk about the research I think. The lack of transparency comes from a high level within the institution. I it's I think. Unfortunately it falls under the risk management umbrella and that's why we that's one of the barriers to transparency at the moment. One of the voices. You died hearing this debate. Nearly often enough As of the patient advocates they are passionate to see progress in in medical research and cancer treatment and diagnosis and those sorts of things and Certainly surveys have been done. Which are those people are less concerned about the cost? In animal numbers for instance the other numbers of mice used in research than other groups and their voices. Legitimate run as well. And I mean when you look at the the donations that people making to charities that are using money in this way and advancing medical research through these methods do you. Do you think people would eat anything you with? The money was being spent. Look I I think there are some people who choose not to but I believe in surveys back this up people except that the use of animals is the price we have to pay for medical progress and most of the modern therapies and drugs that we almost take for granted. These days can be traced back to animal research at some point in their development. I'm not saying it's the be all and angel but there's no doubt. A lot of important therapies were greatly assisted by the use of animals. Does that have to continue being the case? Though do we have alternatives. Now that put us in a position where we where we don't need to use animals. Look there's certainly improvements in alternatives are taking place all the time and it'll turn it is offering a number of important benefits one. Is there much cheaper than using animals that generally quicker and the danger is normally much more reproducible. The trouble is they can't offer the complexity that you get with using a whole animal. We use computers to predict whether we use computers to predict election results and despite all the decades of development that's still quite imperfect and so I think computer modeling has got some together but it does potentially offer a much quicker and more cost effective approach to answering certain questions. The animals that are used in university. Labs what happens to them? Once they I suppose retire from the testing career unfortunately most of killed and the reason for that is because very often. The research is need to collect organs or tissues for further analysis. There are efforts to adopt out. Animals being used in research and I know for instance. A University of Oregon has been very proactive in that They have an embryo adoption program. But that's really only suitable for a small minority of animals killed because often tissues or organs have to be connected afterwards for analysis. All right so that is it for the signal for today and if you WanNa get in touch you can find me on twitter. And I'll be back with you tomorrow. Catch it in. You've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great. Abc. Podcasts live radio and exclusives on the ABC listen APP.
Honour in the institution
"This is an ABC podcast. This is David Rutledge with the philosophy design on our end Beaming into you in glorious high fidelity stereophonic sound from what I like to call my home studio but really it's just a small room with a laptop like Simon People. I'm now operating from home. And that's due to circumstances that we're all very familiar with but apart from that mention of new circumstances this is a virus free edition of the philosopher's zone. I do have some conversations. Line stopped over the next few weeks. Where we're going to be getting into some of the philosophical INS and outs of clever nineteen but I wanted to share this conversation with you. It was recorded a couple of weeks ago just before the proverbial hit the fan. Because it is as. I'm sure you're about to agree a really interesting chat with a really interesting guest. Her name is millicent church. She's an honorary research fellow in philosophy at the University of Sydney and she was recently awarded a prestigious two year fellowship at the Free University of Berlin to pursue research into gender discrimination in modern institutions and has a fascinating tug on the need for a women's code of honor. And we're going to be getting into that later in the program but first we're looking at some fundamental questions of what institutions are and how they work because institutions shape every aspect of our lives. But they can be strangely amorphous things they operate according to rules and conventions that shift and change and sometimes contradict and undermine each other and in this confusion of norms we often find institutionalized discrimination institutions. Really are indispensable for us to navigate are wider social environment by allowing us to predict how other people act how other people respond It relieves us of this cognitive burden of having to process large amounts of information all the time so when we think of institutions that make up the staff social life. I'm thinking here of the family. The legal system universities prisons hospitals but also on my definition and institution could capture something like gender race and sexuality. Okay as you say that they. They may not have formal and informal norms or rules. Of course the former ones we can see if we look into prisons or universities. It's quite obvious what you mean by that. But one of the informal norm the informal rules that exist within an and sometimes outside institutions but still interact with those formal norms. Yeah of course when you have formal institutions or rules you know these things that are written down there. Explicit are courtesy of right but when I talk about informal institutions or informal rules or norms. We're talking about those things. That are often tacit that are unwritten but still have a very powerful effect on structuring patterns of behavior and often times what we find is that informal rules often undercut formal rules in very subtle yet powerful ways so to offer one example you could have a formal commitment to contractual equality in the workplace formal commitments to meritocracy yet. You also have existing Aung side. This rule and implicit GNOME which encourages women to give way to men's assertions of their authority and so of course the tension between the formal rule that and the informal rule Can give way to a hoist of discriminatory behaviors. You know on Equal Pay Grades Habits of sexual harassment a lack of promotional opportunities for women and so on and often if there's an explicit rule within the institution That formerly prohibits discrimination in hiring or sexual harassment the existence of that rule can often actually invalidate the claims of those in the workplace. Who say that they have suffered injustice and who point out that in fact there are implicit. Factors THAT IMPEDE. The achievement of equality saw feminist institutionalists are very concerned with looking at how informal norms or rules of gender impact? Life informal institutional settings so within feminists constitutionalism You've got this rejection of what's known as they rational acta model which basically says that institutions are established and sustained through institution will act as just going about making rational calculations about how to maximize their self interest. So what feminist institutionalists in particular highlight is that Institutional Act does on these kind of disembodied purely rational bangs there embodied their emotional on they have complex networks of desires and preferences and these embodied emotional attachments and investments that they have will fade into their preferences with informal institutional settings and we'll structure their perceived possibilities for action and it can do so in a way that actually often goes against their rational material self interest. So I think you know. We need only think of Documented trends of women passing notes to their male colleagues in amazing so that the Mayo colleague can raise the point in order for the point to receive uptake. So that's the problem that feminists institutionalists really honing in on so if we take these embodied affective dimensions of institutional level and we incorporate them into the task of designing institution. What kinds of questions are we going to be asking about how? That design should proceed if we were going to set up a A feminist friendly university for example design your own university it. Yeah a female female lately station. It's a huge and complex question. And this is you know what my current research is working through at the march. But I'll say few small things. The fundamental problem as I say it is that institutions have evolved to serve those actors with a very particular embodiment namely white middle-class able bodied males and institutional cultures of then overwhelmingly disadvantages for those non normative bodies. I'm sorry off. Med has done some brilliant work. On how non-normative identities within mainstream institutions? Often have these feelings of really not being at home in that space not really belonging right and of course when I talk about institutional cultures and went. Ahmed talks about institutional cultures. They're also affective cultures and so part of what I say. The problems banging is that within days institutional settings that have evolved around those to serve with a particular embodiment. What you tend have what you tend to find. Is You've got inflated feelings of Intellectual Self Esteem Self Pride Self Trust among kind of late institutional actors and on the flip side. You've got deflated feelings of self intellectual self trusts of pride self esteem and so forth Among minority actors you've also got noxious Networks allegiance and solidarity and esteem among those who share power and privilege with institution and often those same papal. Even if they're aware of it or not we'll have strong investments in preserving the status core from which they benefit so what we know is that affect emotion and affective cultures there notoriously difficult to shift via things like programs of explicit education and bias and diversity training for example You can't change the way people feel people's unconscious habits by giving people more information and facts. Also what's been found? Is that if you increase or reinforce systems of incentives and disincentives for institutional actors what you often get is forms of pushback and resistance to important institutional reforms and that kind of pushback and backlash is much harder for institutions to monitor and control for so look Theorists recently a have noted all these limitations of mainstream interventions and they're now looking at the transformative potential of mentoring programs of Intergroup cooperation. Where you have you know a bunch of diverse people working together to solve a problem. Also you know heightened mechanisms of accountability four gender quotas. I've got my reservations about those reforms. I think they're really important but they shouldn't be treated as upon a sale. Actually think we really need to go further to intervene in these kind of damaging affect of culture. It's and I've been thinking a lot recently about the notion of apprenticeships and the notion of apprenticeship as a principle of institutional design would mean that we embed historically marginalized knowledge systems into the everyday practices and norms of an institution. And so what might that look like in the space of say the academy you know? It could be the heads of departments chairs. Put aside the typical bureaucratic agenda for a department meeting and spend the meeting talking about and reflecting on on what more the department could be doing to promote diversity in the profession or how they might better take care of those with caretaking responsibilities. And so I think that's a really exciting idea that has much potential to disrupt these problematic aspect of cultures that I was talking about before. It's a tricky one though. Isn't it because what you talking about? I guess is building a certain flexibility or Agility to use a horrible corporate buzzwords into these institutions and you've mentioned the resistance that institutions will often put up to these sorts of moves. And I guess that's something understandable about it. In the institution's needs to -bility they even politically progressive institution would try to minimize instability because if the institution becomes to subject to disruptive effects then it ceases to function as an institution might be. I've been at the ABC for twenty years. So maybe I'm just speaking of someone who is fully institutionalized what do you think about that just a brick in the wall look of Horse You have to have some degree of stability within an institution for its maintenance But I think there's true main reasons to think that it's unreasonable and irrational for institutions to block. If it's a reform particularly those efforts that are being mobilized by members of marginalized communities and those tree reasons off. I as I've kind of mooted before this business case for gender right People are aware of this. This is a real buzzword. At the moment the business case for gender tent intended to capture the fact the empirical fact that the quality and impact of medical research lay research social policy research economic research. And so on drastically improves. You HAVE GENDER PARODY SONG. The institutions that don't make greater and more meaningful efforts to create a more diverse and inclusive institutional environment the missing out essentially They're not nearly as effective and profitable as they could be. The second reason. A more cynical reason is that look but institution persists in ignoring the complaints and experiences off minority actors and their fused to commit to diversity programs. I mean often. What was saying increasingly. Now that really threatens to boil over into a public relations issue and that's a bad thing for you know universities for example that becoming increasingly corporatized and who really rely on predicting a responsive and responsible image to attract top researchers and students phone are in your in the philosophy zone with me David Rutledge and my guest. Millicent church from the University of Sydney. We're talking about gender discrimination in modern institutions and how to deal with in such a way that women's on up is respected and this language of honor sounds a little old fashioned but actually it's kind of cutting edge and we'll be funny out. Why very shortly stay with us? You've been doing some really interesting work on the institutions that ground sexual relations between men and women here. I guess we're T- we're taking a slightly different Idea of the institution and the ways in which those institutions generally don't work to secure the safety or the dignity of women. Let's talk about that and about the notion of consent. That is being highly problematic in these institutions. Look so I mean that's various institutions as we all know that structure sexual relations between men and women which aren't adequately protect women The family church the law the police force right. But there's all the institutions that ground sexual relations between men and women that aunt so obvious you know lock. They Academy so. I've been doing a lot of interesting work. Actually in cooperation with some students undergraduate and postgraduate students at the University of Sydney and reforms that we're saying in this space in relation to sexual relations and consent education What we say one. They increased prosecution of professional misconduct sexual misconduct. Among senior members of staff and among those undergraduate male students in colleges But we've also saying the introduction of things like that consent matters online module huge amounts of money have been invested in this module. It's been rolled out not only by the University of Sydney but by the other top universities as well and I think again as a very important reforms but they should not again be it as a panacea because I think the Limited in important ways Just focusing on the consent matters module. I mean this is an online module. That's meant educate students. Around the circumstances in which sexual consent is genuinely bank given Sorry we've moved away. Annoy model of consent to a yes model of consent so now it's not enough to claim that the person didn't say nor they had to have explicitly agreed to sex and more of a people and now pushing for an enthusiastic. Yes model of consent to deal with the problem of sexual misconduct among undergraduate students. My issue this is that the presence of a yes or even an enthusiastic yes doesn't automatically render the sexual interaction that follows ethical. You have a lot of existing empirical evidence that shows young women are consenting to six but that sex is in an important way on wanted. A non reciprocal you know you have women consenting to sex. But it's almost like they're relenting to six so part of my problem. Is this emphasis on consent. As a mockery of ethical and ethical sex kind of draws attention away to the background structural conditions of coercion and which support a sense among young males that they are entitled to demand six on which structure sense among women that it's not within their right to dictate how that sexual interaction will unfold right so if we look at the way in which consent doesn't fully sort of answer these questions of male entitlement and female acquiescence. This is getting into the realm of the social imaginary. This is the term we know from Charles Taylor among those. Can you unpack that a little bit? This term social imaginary. And how? It's working here absolutely sorry. Following people like Charles Taylor and more eye doctor Philly broad-brush definition of the social imaginary which understand the imaginary in terms of a cluster of signification that structural social interactions. So when I say signification here I'm not talking about explicit theories or doctrines rather I'm talking about things like images symbols Narratives stories metaphors right and they will always be culturally specific. That will vary historically But they form part of this inescapable backdrop against which we understand ourselves and others now in terms of the social imaginary that I see as being operative in contemporary sexual relations between men and women and which structure very problematic norms of behavior between them immediately. What comes to mind off sporting imagine raise and pornographic imaginings So you know. You'll often find sports. Commentators referring to young men as young guns all lethal weapons. I'm sure many people are the position that women occupy in pornographic imaginary. That's not a flattering one You know women. In those spaces are often reduced to objects that solely serve the purpose of male satisfaction. I think other really powerful discourses that structure norms of sexual behavior. You have the male sexual drive discourse you know that men don't have any control over their sexual impulses that they have to have sex all the time and also the have hauled discourse. Which is that. Women need to engage in six willingly and freely in order to hold on to their relationships with men. And so I think the of these kind of narratives encourages this perception of Mayo bodies as invulnerable as active as impenetrable and on the other hand women become positioned as passive as vulnerable as penetrable. And I think we're saying that. Play out in contemporary heterosexual relations between young men and women Looking in terms of other imaginary is that could be relevant here. You know sporting and pornographic imagine raise intersect with wider economic familial and religious imagine raise that endow male breadwinners will mayo heads of household with inflated sense of sexual impediment. So they're definitely operative in this context also and you're looking to challenge the imaginary with a women's Honor Code which is really really interesting. Because the Honor Code is traditionally thought I was a very mild preserve the notion of women's honor itself and it has some very victorian era patriarchal overtime half. What do you want to go down that road? What would what women's Ana a code look like? Yes sir? Look on a might be problematic in in all the ways that you've just described David whether we like it or not and whether we know it or not on a still plays a very powerful role in structuring heterosexual relations in Contemporary Society. So why think honor happens to be really fascinating and rich concept to mobilize in this space is that it's true. Facts can either be mobilized in ways that oppress women but can also in pow them so when we think of on all it's actually cost a concept it encompasses different normative values and important and very powerful effective attitudes are integrity honesty Self Respect Pride. Shame and a stain. So what I want to do. In creating a revised on a card among women is to ensure that when women's sense of sexual ana that is their sense of sexual. Self regard is violated. This experience elicits anger. It elicits indignation as opposed to shame and humiliation and silence revising. An honor code among men would mean in pot that when men protect Mayo perpetrators of sexual assault that this kind of behavior elicits shame and not provide or indifference and collective is will not just visual which is really interesting absolutely so. I mean that's that's also what fascinates me about this concept of on. This is what scholars like Linda. Alcohol drawn attention to is that on our as opposed to consent on collective notion. You know if you damage or violate my Ana Uvira light the owner of the group to which I belong and so in that sense the violation often trucks public reparations. And not just private reparations. I think the focus of consent. There's an overwhelming focus on the culpability of the single perpetrator rather on the whole community or the group to which that perpetrator belongs. And there's a focus on the wrong done to the specific victim and kind of tailor notions of redress. And so I think what cultivating a robust sense of sexual ANA among women would do would be to ensure that individual violations of honor carried through and made public So that individuals experienced of Anga is collectivized through petitions through community workshops three protests and the like so something that Anthony Quayle may apply us. Said is that you know. Honor is particularly well suited to turning private moral sentiments and feelings into public GNOMES. I think that's really interesting and really important. Can you give us an example of women who have been successful in invoking? Women's honor in a way that disrupts that normally the institutional model of how women should be treated so in this paper that on my focus on two particular examples of women who've disrupted normative institutional models of Heterosexual Relations Knots Erzurum. Gento her two thousand eighteen a speech at the cons film festival and the Wonderful Hannah. Gadsby and her live comedy show. Nannette SAR out the cons film festival. This is an event. That's very glamorous. It's all about stowing praise on a steamed film directors and whatnot. And of course you know authentic gets up and Shea announces that she was raped by Harvey Weinstein at this festival and that this kind of behavior can't continue in that perpetrators. We know who you are. And you're not GonNa get away with it any longer in terms of Gadsby Ninette I don't want to give too much away here because I know it's a spoiler alert and I really want everyone. Everyone wants to go insane. Annette. Yeah there is a problem but part of Part of what Gadsby does in Ninette. Is that Shea refuses to engage in the kind of self deprecating humor that she thinks has been complicit in her own subjugation as a member of the lgbtq community and eventually share reveals this devastating story personal story of sexual violence at the end of the comedy. Act You know. She refuses to humor her audience. It's this really kind of rattling shattering. Experience it really subverts her audience's expectations of what a comedian should do and is allowed to do in that space. So I think both odd gentlemen Gadsby there. An example of women publicly asserting their sexual honor by actively refusing to on The institutional conventions that complicit in their oppression. So you know in in agendas case you know. She refuses to honor and bestow praise on the film directors rather. She calls them out she shames them. In God's class as I've said she refuses to Huma Her Audience. She refuses to engage in norms of self deprecating comedy. And both of these women do serve via you know. They don't do this by presenting paper with rational systematic arguments importantly they do this via rhetorical strategies that aim to galvanize feelings of shame and guilt in their respective audiences. So I think that they're just amazing. Examples of two women who broke frame relay and produced this sense of dissonance intention in their audiences that really compelled those audience to audiences to reflect on their behavior and the institutions that privilege really problematic and protect problematic norms of behavior. I should point out here that I'm certainly not advocating that. All women go around doing What God's be an on Dente Did in these kind of spaces. I mean what might have been courageous for them As white middle class women would be completely foolhardy for someone else certainly. I think responsibilities to break frame should be distributed and they should come in degrees and they should rest. Moreover with a late institutional actors who really enjoy most of the power and privilege and institutional spaces. Millicent church a philosopher at the University of Sydney and recent recipient of two year fellowship at the Free University in Berlin and this has been the philosopher's design on our end. If you want to listen again you can find us via the APP or the RN website. We've got streaming audio and download links. Subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't done that already I'm sure a lot of you looking around for as many absorbing podcast as you can possibly find well. This is definitely one of them. I'm David Rutledge. You can tweet at David Peas on. Stay safe stay healthy. Stay indoors if he possibly can see next week. You've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great. Abc. Podcasts live radio and exclusives on. Abc Listen Up.
Think of Sadness as a Person, Neanderthals Using Aspirin, and Cow Voices
"Hi you're about to get smarter in just a few minutes with curiosity. Daily from curiosity DOT COM. I'm Cody Gov and I'm actually Hamer. Today you learn about a trick for conquering sadness. Sadness how neanderthals may have relieved their pain with a familiar drug and the surprising science and how cows talk to each other. Let satisfy some curiosity or as cows might might say mu that is what they would say. Here's a trick. Next time you feel sad give that sadness sadness a name then give it a personality a physical appearance conversational style and maybe a desire seriously. According to recent research and the Journal consumer psychology thinking of your sadness as a person may help you feel less sad. This is basically an extension of what psychologists have known for a while when faced with something challenging. It's good to think about what you would tell a friend to do. You're likely to be more gentle with yourself. Since you're observing the problem at a distance likewise the study found that individuals asked to think of their sadnesses person reported feeling less sad afterward probably because they were able to increase the distance between themselves and their challenging emotions shins. So let's pretend you're feeling sad because you came across Exxon facebook you say to yourself. The sadness named Gwendolyn is jealous that this person has has moved on why his Gwendolyn shown up. Maybe because she's worried she'll be alone forever then you might be able to respond to your sadness thoughtfully and compassionately instead instead of criticizing yourself for feeling it or doing something impulsive but a word of warning. This strategy is specifically for sadness. It could backfire. If it's used on on positive feelings. The researchers found that imagining your happiness as a person will dilute its effects in the same way which you don't want so watch out you could become too powerful bowl for your own good. The researchers also say they just don't know if the same strategy will work for other feelings like guilt or embarrassment. Those feelings are more involved with a self and detaching might not work likewise depression is a much more complex experience and this strategy might be too simple to tackle it but the bottom line seems to to be that distancing yourself from your feelings can help you process challenging emotions so take a step back give your sadness and name and move through it. Good luck. Yeah Good Luck and we've got your number Gwendolyn Wendelin get Outta here. Gwendolyn apologies. If your name is Gwendolyn and you're listening to this know Gwendolyn were harmed in the making making of this podcast when you have a toothache you probably don't blame it on Gwendolyn. You probably reach for pain medication. And according the scientists guess who else did neanderthals samples from neanderthals dental plaque show evidence that sick neanderthals reached for plants lance that contained the active ingredients in aspirin. Here's the deal. A twenty seventeen in international team performed DNA tests on fossils of neanderthal. Not F- The four fossils they tested were between forty two thousand and fifty thousand years old and they came from two different areas to were from speak cave in Belgium and two were from Elsa Dron Cave in Spain in tests of their dental calculus which the hardened results of plaque buildup they found perhaps unsurprisingly that the neanderthals from Belgium eight a different Diet than those from Spain the first subsisting on woolly rhinoceros. Wild sheep and wild mushrooms delicious with the latter relying on a meat free diet of Pine Nuts Moss. Mushrooms and tree bark mildly last delicious in my opinion. But Hey if you're a vegetarian they go one of the Spanish. NEANDERTHALS was not in good shape. The DNA evidence showed he suffered from a dental abscess and and the intestinal parasite known as micro spirit which causes severe diarrhea. He but not his Spanish companion had been eating a steady diet of love. Poplar poplar contains salicylic acid. which is the active ingredient in? You guessed it aspirin even more surprising. The the fossil also showed signs that he had been eating plants covered in penicillin. Mold the source of the Antibiotic Penicillin. That's right this. Neanderthal may have been using a form of an antibiotic that wasn't developed until forty thousand years later a self medicating neanderthal with knowledge of medicinal plants and their various anti inflammatory and pain relieving properties. That certainly in stark contrast to the rather simplistic view of ancient relatives that exists in the popular immagination nation. You know every time I hear about the diets of neanderthals. It's different which makes sense right because depending on where you are in the world you're going to eat different different things and yet we talk about like Paleo humans as all eating the same like Paleo Diet It's not true. I mean like like some were vegetarians. Some eight a lot of carbs some eight a lot of meat some eight mushrooms and woolly rhinoceros. I WANNA start the woolly Rhinoceros Diet. How about that? Ah there you go. Yeah today's episode is sponsored by Purple Mattress. The quality of your sleep affects the quality of your daily life. And if you WANNA spend your your day hunting woolly rhinos wild sheep and wild mushrooms for dinner. Then you won't be able to get away with a sleepless night and you're struggling to get a good night's sleep. You've gotTA triple Mattress Chris. The purple mattress will probably feel different than anything you've ever experienced because it uses a brand new material that was developed by an actual rocket scientist. So it feels unique because it's both both firm and soft at the same time. The purple mattress keeps everything supported while still feeling really comfortable. Plus it's be the bull so it sleeps cool. Eight is not like the memory foam. You're probably use is to when you order. You'll get one hundred nights risk-free trial if you're not fully satisfied. You can return your mattress for a full refund. It's also backed by a ten year warranty with free reshipping and returns. You're going to love purple and right now. Curiosity daily listeners will get free purple pillow with the purchase of mattress. And that's on top of all the great free gifts they're offering offering site-wide just text curious to eighty four eight eight. The only way to get this free pillow is to text curious to eighty four eight. That's C. U. R. I O.. US eight four eight eight eight message and data rates may apply who says cows can't talk. According to new research from the University of Sydney every Mu has meaning cows have unique voices. They used to communicate feelings to each other. Are they excited aroused or distressed. We just have to listen to them to find out. PhD Student Alexander. Green from Sydney's School of life and environmental sciences is the person behind this moving discovery over the course of five months. Green Green listened to a herd of Eighteen Holstein Frisia heifers. She recorded three hundred. Thirty three samples of cow sounds in different contexts. She wanted to find out what sounds to cows make when they're interested in mating or about to eat. And what do they say when they're denied access to food or isolated from cow friends according to green the sounds the cows make our special and convey feeling and the sounds were relatively consistent across positive and negative situations. This kind of variation in moods helps the cows to stay connected to their heard but also to express excitement arousal engagement or distress green traveled to Santiago in France to analyze her cow recordings mornings with some of the world's leading bioacoustics sins together they listened to the clips and found clear individual cow voices before Green's research. Scientists knew the cowl mothers and their babies could communicate through lowing. But this is the first time we've been able to find that. Cows use individual voices to communicate throughout their lives chiefs. The hope is that farmers around the world will be able to use this research to get closer to their cows and improve their welfare by listening to their cows. Farmers may be able to figure figure out who needs more individual attention as Greens academic supervisor says. It's like she's building a google translate for cows that probably means we need to update that old. McDonald's song on that farm he had a cow and the cow was like. Excuse me I would like to order some grain and a trough of water. Thank you doesn't doesn't really have the same ring to who it doesn't rhyme either. No why learned a lot today including the fact that you can name your sadness and if you treat it like a person you may be able to deal with a better darn you Gwendolyn Gwendolyn. Yeah I'm GonNa Getcha and we learned that neanderthals may have used a form of aspirin and penicillin. Forty thousand years ago Only they had filed a patent. They'd have so much money man they really missed out on the capitalism gains That they could have gotten gotten sick. Gains sick game six weekends. They're too busy making gains hunting rhinoceros and stuff. While and researchers at the university diversity of Sydney showed the cows basically have individual voices that can convey lots of different emotions. Cows do talk to each other. I feel like this is something that we all knew new intuitively but you know science has to get in there and be like. Let's let's find out all right. They do you're right. Did you intuitively know the cows talk to each other. Of course animals. Animals animals can communicate. I mean you can't really survive in nature if you don't communicate right or in the workplace gives. We're learning learning that right now to these stories were written by Ashley. Hammer and Kelsey dunk and edited by Ashley Hammer. WHO's the managing editor for curiosity? Awesome daily script writing this. By cody and Sonya Hodgin curiosity daily is produced and edited by cody. Gov Join US again tomorrow to learn something new in just a few minutes and until then stay curious on the Westwood. One podcast network.
New battery launched for life beyond lithium
"We start with batteries and buildings made from them your house as its own storage launched of university of Sydney where the vice chancellor, Dr Michael Spence notes, the long tradition of aboriginal education there and chemist Tom mash Meyer, father of July on the battery. Well, it is my great pleasure to congratulate the July and community on this quite remarkable occasion. And this is actually a good place to do it. Because not only is it been a place of teaching and learning for tens of thousands of years, but it's a place of vision. If you look behind me these other silly gothic buildings it's important to remember that they were built for just thirty five students at a time when the university was in what was regarded by the European settlers as the end of the world. In fact, when these buildings were opened it was impossible for people to come to the opening celebration because the road between here and Sydney were impossible. And yet what they said is we're going to cry. Create a university for the world and gave the university of Moscow that roughly translated means we can do it as well here as we can't anywhere. And we are now a university with students one hundred and forty countries around the world that's made significant contributions in every area of learning. But it's not just about excellence. It's not just about doing what we do phenomenally. Well, and being ranked in the top no point five percent of universities word and all of that kind of stuff. It's about doing it for a purpose. They would deeply committed that this should be an institution that would change the fortunes of New South Wales. And we are beyond that Australia in the world, we've really focused on answering the questions that the community is asking not just the questions, we're asking ourselves ending gauging with our partners across the community and across industry to identify the pressing issues of the future, of course, parole of this Thomas is quite literally a poster boy, this is great science really mind stretching science and yet science that has a purpose in making a difference for our community and damp planet. That's the university of sin. Bny added Sperry based? And so it is my very, great pleasure. On behalf of the university to congratulate the July and community on having got to this point. We're putting our money where mouth is we are making a what is for us, a very significant investment in this technology in a way that is unusual for the university in investing in mobile lighting towers for the safety of our students on campus that are going to be powered by July and batteries will also be using July and batteries as a part of our renewable energy network. This is technology. That's time grind. It's technology that we know works. It's technology that expresses the spirit of who we are. And we're very proud to be a small part of this incredible project. Thank you. Sydney device. Accouncement Michael Spence at the launch a few days ago of July on the firm and the battery jail I on get it. And he here's a hero. He was talking about professor of chemistry. Tom mash Meyer is it. Fair to say that what you're doing is having a Jill that's incorporated into buildings themselves to actress batteries. Well. The Joel is incorporated into the battery and the batteries we hope will be incorporated into buildings. The amazing thing about our technology is that it cannot catch fire. So therefore, it is safe to be incorporated into the structure of buildings much the capacity of it. Imagine the buildings around here at the university of Sydney, one of them with lots of your batteries could it operate as its own kind of major storage without any extra from outside. Yes. So capacity is one hundred twenty watt hours per kilogram. So if you think you can build a Bill out of lithium batteries, you can. Build a building out of our batteries, and it can be pretty big power station. And what stage has it reached? Have you have Jeep put it in a building yet? We haven't put it in the building yet. I commercial demonstration is tonight being revealed at Sydney University, and we have it in a solar light tower. We move on from that to residential units. And we are in deep discussions with a number of construction companies of how to put it into building into prefabricated walls as it's a jail. Why is that an advantage over the acid battery system? So the gel system for zinc bromine chemistry means I can locate the bromine extremely well. I can suppress zinc tend rights, which are problem, and I can add catalysts that handle any kind of hydrogen that might be involved and overall that means that our batteries very stable, and we can completely seal it another advantage is that the gel being somewhat liquid like self repes-. So if the some in homogeneity in the battery. On charging and discharging it resets to its original state. And where does the energy come from the energy is just tragedy that can be sourced from anywhere? It can be cheap electricity from conventional sources that can be renewable energy solar wind wave title and presumably it can be stored when the demand is less overnight. That's right. So one can do energy arbitrage if only is to do that or one can connected to solo PV, which is particular forte of us because our charging cycles over four hours and discharging four to eight hours, and that's a very good match for solo. Now, I seem to remember discussing what the batteries in the world today. Ordinarily would be able to do if we had to rely on them for the next hour. Just imagine everything all pal sessions systems closed down on you head to work on the batteries. Is it true that keep us going for any eleven minutes? Yes, that's right. And I took that number from Ellen fingers are chiefs. Scientists report into this matter has he heard about your system. Yes, he has and his very excited about it of asleep. Chief scientists economy seen to endorse any particular technology. But in the he's aware, and is wishing as well when you do incorporated into buildings and imagine it spreads across in say five, maybe ten years time. What could the difference be to living in cities? So our really low entry price means that the whole power infrastructure can be reimagined. We don't need to rely so much on centralized power systems. We can go for local generation we can go for this DVD networks, we can go full resilient networks. How principally renewable energy transmission? Losses will be minimal all really because a battery is flame proof will not catch fire and is very affordable. And is there any limit the amount you can build into the system in any particular building? Yes. The concept is that the prefabricated walls cow. Currently have got a cavity. And that cavity can be filled with all sorts of materials, depending what one wants to achieve. We can fill those prefabricated walls with batteries. Imagine that your aforementioned closure happens. And you're in a building that's been up there for ten years, and it's working. Well, how long can your battery keep L building going? That depends on how many batteries we have in the building, of course. But certainly it can do what diesel generators are doing right now. So it can easily do the four to eight hours depending on what's in the building. Of course, what about days? Well, it depends. How much power you draw depending on what's in those? If you have x-ray machines for hospital, which draw huge amounts of powers different to residential. But people just put on the kettle in worst telly are you hoping Tom this is in fact as a game changer. We believe very strongly this will be a game changer because of the photo ability. It means that we should be able to deliver it for the full system cost at around three cents. Per kilowatt hour that's about half or less than currently the case. And have you told Angus Taylor about this yet didn't have the opportunity yet to do? So the minister, of course, all yes. And when I have we delighted to one more question about something else. And that is we ran something in the science show query about light, plastics. And when we talked you said, the problem of hard, plastics, which people could not use to make roads and using bulk like that on a fantastic scale as they might do as they are doing infecting pilot schemes in north of Melvin and in Sutherland in Sydney, you have solved the problem of recycling hard, plastics you. Yes, we have resolved the problem of recycling any plastic. So when I separate plastics out of the the high value, plastics are easily separable ones, very pure milk bottles. Again, those ones I will just recycle in the normal way by melting them down and re-injecting. But everything else that's left over normally people either have to burn it. Go into landfill. Or use a technology called policies, which is quite a low yield technology. We have developed with Liselotte technology, which can take all of that plastic and may chemicals out of it can be oils lubricants, waxes fuels and also mama's back to new plastics. So we can close the material loop. We can have completely closed materials balance. Anyone doing it yet? Yes. We're building a plant in the UK twenty thousand tons a year. We are raising money for two more plants and for Woody waste. We are in the process of putting together a plant with full Canada's main forestry company that have the largest pulp and paper mill in the willed one million tonnes, and we're putting two hundred thousand time plant there. What is so amazingly special about the department of chemistry at the university of Sydney? Well, we have a very supportive university incredible spirit of collegiality and all of mentoring going on from all too young and young too old because the young people can teach us a lot as well. And just the excellent place to be. Thank you very much. Thank you. Professor, Tom mash, my at the launch of July on the battery, and yes, putting plastic in roads can be done on a vast scale. Once everyone gets on with it instead of s fault saving local councils millions of dollars.
Designing the computers of tomorrow
"Now let's meet that Guitarist University of Sydney David Riley he also works with diamonds and has a position with Microsoft. First of all. You haven't bought a guitar with you I should have done. So you should have done because you remind me of the kind of Brian May strenuous. Nor quite as toll or is talented I. He's amazing. Isn't the what do you play at the moment? I'm really kind of get the fender stratocaster out of my hand but whatever the depends on the style I, remember you're playing in fact, the opening of this department the Nanno research outfit five years ago four years ago whatever it was. But the thing have you brought any tiny diamonds with you? I have not have not although. They probably around on the floor in the ED to some very small. Tiny nanometers in size he had the ones that we focus on our synthetic and these are ones that are in the body and they're spotted by the are I in other words, the machine that looks through you to see what's going on inside the body what they tell you as a person who wants to find out what's wrong with the body or not with motivation is really trying to track something in the body we wanted to make a lighthouse and what you attach that light house to that's really kind of at the discretion of research. But for instance, if you want to know where certain drugs maybe chemotherapy drugs anyone who's been you know in a very. Challenging circumstance of having to undergo chemotherapy knows that it's A. Process in part because those drugs go everywhere and they attack healthy tissue as much as they do cancerous tissue. A lot of the reason for that just blanket approach to treatment is because there is still of fundamental questions about how do we target certain types of citadels to certain particular functions or parts of body and from a physics point of view I mean, obviously physicists not a medical research, but it's A. Physics problem how do you create a beacon or lighthouse that is going to be useful in MRI not require you to be opened up, not require us to go and biopsy an organ but just to take a somewhat regular MRI and then have certain regions light up way the drugs our way they aren't cancer is a cancer recent. So that was the longtime motivation really challenging physics problem head of make diamond. Effectively light up in an MRI does it work? Yeah. It does. We've developed the technique to the point it works in mice and it's now really moving out of the physics lab into that why to area way it's going to have impact in biomedical research. Normally with those machines, you can tell with this tomb of the how extensive it is. You're looking at something rather small but what kind of things are you being able to spot the normal x ray type investigation can't the history of this came from maybe gives you a better understanding of. What we're trying to do I I, read a paper just remember. I. Think I was waiting somewhere wasn't to see a doctor was something like that I was reading something and I came across an article that said that chemotherapy drugs ferried around the body on us on a substrate or like on a raft in that Ross happened to be nano-diamond because it's relatively you knew it and dozen reaction is somewhat safe in small concentrations and I thought that's really interesting that just using diamond purely for the reason that it's inert and it doesn't react with anything. Physics point of utility of the diamond has other remarkable properties optically active, and it's also possible to basically program its nucleus spins the little tiny magnets leaving the inside of the Atom Orient, them such that it can give you a an image signature an MRE. So it's all about that attaching to something else goes along for the rides of big light bulb that will light up whatever it is that it's attached to. This Nanno outfit that you're in also, of course, works on quantum computing now. Without making you cross I. Hope I usually think of quantum computing, not just at the University of new, South Wales, Michelle Simmons. But also with silicon way as your investigation different silicon is a very interesting material and the F. that you're describing as being around now for over twenty years, and in fact, my PhD from that activity of the University of New South Wales in fact before it just hotted back in the late nineties. Silicon. In, many ways very obvious choice in which to make what we call cubits, the fundamental blocks of quantum information, and the reason that they're an obvious choices because the name of the game when it comes to quantum information is trying to protect it. It's very. At wants to become regular foreign classical information all the time, and to preserve these exotic or almost in a very counterintuitive properties. One has to preserve the quantum nature. So the name of the game is protected and silicon is material that when it comes to the electron spin the nucleus speed again, that is the little bar magnet. Goes along with the electron or nucleus in an atom. Silicon is material that's extremely free of uncontrolled by magnets uncontrolled spin. So if you intentionally put a speed in silicon, that's great because that's been can encode information and there's no other spins in the system that can lead to a loss of quantum information however. The challenges in this is something I think I've lost twenty years we've realized is that if you think of a line where you can choose between really protected systems where the information is stored in a way that is isolated like silicon and up the other end of the line is controllable I can manipulate it really quickly I can interact with it very strongly, and the challenge is, how do you create systems that are both highly protected from the environment, but not highly protected from control because I want to be out of manipulated and that did my Haidian thinking about that problem you realized that there is no escaping it you can choose your flavor of Cuba to. Silicon Harley protected but challenge you to control pretty slow and so on or keeps that want to interact with everything including the environment, but they can also be controlled very effectively and very quickly. You know how do you break out of that double edged sword? That was what inspired me to start to work on very different systems and the work that's happening here at the University of CD is really about trying to explore new types of cubits. The break free of this limitation differ materials, different materials, but totally different principles tightly fundamentally different ways of storing and manipulating quantum information. So we're trying to build what we call a top logical cube it that is a a system that uses topology, the branch of mathematics associated with global properties shapes, which we WANNA use those principles to protect the information and break free of this challenge of protected but controllable. So very different. The President of the Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering You bread lows, the president, and he famously said, and we focus on sign show that there are many ways of tackling this gigantic field of quantum computing and if you imagine a horse race, it's one where you will have not just one winner. There will be a whole stream and what you're doing is being supported by Microsoft which shows that they've got tremendous faith in your. Competition with your search for cubits. What's the relationship built on two main? Well, yeah I mean. It's a whole range of interesting things to unpack. The first is I would agree with you that we don't have we the world humankind has not yet in my view, possess a technology that's going to allow us to build a quantum computer not one of scale that's going to be significant enough to do impactful things we have that technology. We need to kind of go back to the drawing board, and really now we understand a lot of these ideas better. That's Microsoft's view, and in some ways, it's actually a little bit pessimistic because I think we as a group within the company number of years. Working on these different systems, you know many of the people that are part of Microsoft's effort including myself started in Spain cubits in silicon or in other materials, superconducting technology that different flavors of Cuba and. A decade or so in that you realized that needs to be other ways of doing it, and so it's a collection of people who actually a little bit pessimistic about the approaches that are out there. Let's figure out how to do it. Right. That's going to allow us to scale build a machine of sufficient complexity and size that can go off to in some ways Microsoft, is not interested in building a quantum computer. It's interested in the applications and the impact of such a machine. So we want to build a useful McCain and it's going to change the world exactly deal exactly, and that's that's what I said on. It's not about for us a physics experiment for me personally that's very interesting but I recognize if you're gonNA touch people in the street, you're GonNa make an impact in. People's lives beyond physics experiment than you have to build a very different machine. One that is sufficiently complex and large scale that it can solve. Really hard problem. Show you in your late night thought you've had dreams about the ways in which it's going to be if everything goes right what some of those dreams made or what kind of speculation can you have not simply just If you like more secure bankcards but how lives will be affected you can spend a Lotta time dreaming about that. There are things we see right now with the technology as we understand it even though it doesn't exist at the level that you can actually start to use it. One can imagine using it for obviously you know a range of things in what people call quantum chemistry, lot of designing pharmaceuticals, catalysts, chemicals that are needed manufacturing dyes, and so on carbon capture. Many of those types of applications will benefit I think from having a machine of sufficient scale quantum computer that can really solve some of the intricacies of quantum chemistry problems. But the truth is we really don't know and that sounds bizarre because people think why would you put such a huge effort into building something? He doesn't even know what is good for, and the answer to that think is a little bit subtle I mean on one hand, we can identify applications for me. A quantum computer changes the fundamental law. It's totally different to how the machines that we carry around now pockets work and I think when you change that underlying fundamental aspect of how computing works, it would be very surprising if that didn't also open up all kinds of other applications think we can look back in history and say that many many times I think the most exciting applications will be the ones we can't. Dream about envisage just to give you a tiny bit of story which you bounce of one thousand conference and a little old man was looking at an exercise machine and he thought it would be good for his back and he went off to get his credit card and I said to the woman running the booth. A said Gena who that was. That was one of the three guys who got the Nobel Prize for inventing lasers. And this was something for which. Apparently there was no use laser organized light. Okay, he's credit card is going to be read by you buy a laser beam. And in other words, you have something so huge like computers have become. So huge transform the world in other words jobs in other words who knows what? Yeah that's exactly right and transistors also another story that still many people alive who lived through that era and no first hand about the discussions people say, what are we going to do with this stuff? The transistor original motivation was to make repeater the telephone. Repeater stations more war robust serviceable less frequently get away from vacuum tubes that were always blowing. But as they realized they holding something that was also very small. What are we going to do with that? You know and he we are and it's not that long ago I mean thirty, forty, fifty years, and now we're carrying ten billion of these things round in everybody's pocket and doing things that we could never imagine so. Humans are pretty bad. I think at predicting the future, but you've got to believe if you change the fundamental way in which you're doing logic, the logic that you learn in kindergarten. Preschool whatever one plus one equals two imagine if. Actually, there's some other laws. Here's some other some other fundamental mathematics that you can tap into. Of course, that's going to lead to many other applications and we're getting a glimpse of those now but I think it's really gonNA be exciting over the next ten twenty years to just see how the world changes because we've changed the fundamental logic final question very short one have you recorded an album which they used to call it done live gigs. Not For some time I do have fond recording at home I mean in this day and age, you can easily do that and plug in your laptop is a is a recording studio. It's a fascinating thing to me actually because. Just, a I mean talking about vacuum tubes and transistors. I've got to tell you this. This really does amuse me more than Numb keep me up at night but the idea that for Aficionados of sound and music and guitars amplifies it's the vacuum tube that sounds so good and people spend huge amounts of money to buy amplifies bill from vacuum tubes as opposed to transistors. But today you can take your laptop with ten billion transistors. Run an operating system and a whole range of high level applications software, and then you can dial up the sound with those ten billion transistors in your CPU. You can dial up the sound of vacuum cheap. So he, we are emulating with with all of this complex where the sound of fifty years ago and it's remarkable. How history repeats itself in some very weird way like that. Professor David Riley at the University of Sydney's nanny.
Are theoretical physicists mad?
"The science show on our in you must now hold onto a firm support because a philosopher also from the University of Sydney is about to go beyond revolutionary right through the looking glass t-ball Mona. When Ellis tumbled down the rabbit hole wonderland. The cat greened at her and said. We're all mad hia. I'm mad. You're mad. You must be or you wouldn't have come here. And I'm starting to think that have been onto something. Particularly in the field of theoretical physics. I studied physics both at school and at university. And have maintained a lifelong interest. Of always been curious about how the world works after all I am standing in it. and. Over the years, I've writ large number of science books, some serious texts, and also means genre of popular. Science here is some of the more absurd ideas I've come across. In his book about time. Pull Davies from Arizona. State University writes. The common sense idea that there is an objective reality out there. All the time is a fallacy. In another book, Physics and Philosophy by Verna Heisenberg author of the famous book, uncertainty, principle and recipient of the nineteen thirty two Nobel Prize, he says the idea of an objective real world who smallest parts exist objectively in the same sense of stone or trees exist independently of whether or not we observe them is impossible. So if I understand this correctly, an objective reality is not just a fallacy. It's actually provable impossible, and we are expected to believe this because it was written by an objectively real. Heisenberg. In his book, the Grand Design the light Stephen Hawking says because there is such laws gravity the universe and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing why the universe exists. Of course according to Heisenberg, he can't be a real objective universe. But we might wonder. How does even an unreal non-existent universe created itself and from nothing? Lawrence Krauss seems to have the answer. His book a universe from nothing he says. Nothing isn't nothing anymore in physics. Nothing is really a boiling bubbling brew virtual particles that are popping Internet of existence. Una Thomas cow so short. You can't see them. And he goes on. Surely nothing is every bit as physical is something. Especially, if it is to be defined as the absence of something. Now. Is this really solid? Otherwise understood nothing to the absence of everything. And now, Lawrence Krauss assures us that nothing is actually the presence of an absence of something. And that he has physical properties. But, it can't really be like that either. For a best nothing can only be the virtual presence of an absence of something. This no objective reality remember. So we may well ask how virtual particles poppy in and out of virtual existence have physical properties. On this formulation, what can physical possibly main? Then in the fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene Columbia University I read that reality. The stuff of the universe is composed of six dimensional vibrations in tiny loops of virtual stream. In other words, the universe is like a ten dimensional pot of boiling. Bubbling Virtual Spaghetti made a virtual pastor in a virtual pot. But white shouldn't that also be virtual reality and don't the vibrations have to be virtual to? And if not, how does virtual spaghetti produce real vibrations. This time Max Take Mark Professor of physics at Mit has the answer. In his book, a Mathematical Universe he writes. Physical world not only is described by mathematics, but it is mathematics. Not Real, mathematics, not real objective mathematics, course, but virtual mathematics virtual mathematicians like Max mark. And Max take mark is not alone. Vlatko Vedra professor of quantum information science at Oxford. Writes something very similar. Information and not matter or energy or love is the building block on which everything is constructed? Moreover in apparent support of Stephen Hawkins claimed that the universe created itself. The drawl adds information in contrast matter energy is the only concept that we currently have the can explain its own origin. Anton Zeilinger professor of physics at the University of Vienna. Also thinks that reality is made of information. In fact, he thinks reality and information are indistinguishable. We have learned in the history of physics that it is important not to make distinctions that have no basis such as the pre Newtonian distinction between the laws on earth, and those that govern the motions of the heavenly bodies. I suggest that in a similar way the distinction between reality and knowledge of. Between Reality and information cannot be made. Max Plank, the father of quantum mechanics and recipient of the nineteen eighteen prize ventured even further. In an interview with science writer, John Sullivan keep proposed that everything is made of consciousness. I regard consciousnesses fundamental. Regard matter as derivative from consciousness. Everything that we regard is existing postulates concerts nece. Sullivan's interview with plank was published in the London Observer on the twenty fifth of January nineteen thirty one. Planks hid it again in Florence in nineteen, forty four. There is no matter as such or matter. Originating exists only by virtue of the existence of a conscious and intelligent spirit. This spirit is the Matrix of Olmeta. Now. If plank is right then, I suppose we should expect the large Hadron collider soon to turn up another new elementary particle, the fundamental interaction of the spirit or consciousness field. A plank bozon perhaps. In the ensuing years, planks view gained support from Fred Allen Wolf One time professor of physics at San Diego. State University. WHO IN A book entitled? Parallel? universes combined it with a wheeler feinman absorb theory. And concluded that the world we see out there appears physical form because information from the past, and from the future joins for a momentary flash of consciousness. Throw out either and nothing would exist as a solid object. So Wolf is right then. Solid objects are at least in part composed of information coming back from the future. This may sound ridiculous, but don't laugh. The absorb theory on which this idea is based was originally proposed by two. Nobel laureates John. Wheeler and Richard Feynman. Another champion of fundamental consciousness is step. A mathematical physicist at the University of California in Berkeley. In his book mind matter and quantum mechanics. He writes. It seems to me unlikely that human ideas could emerge from a universe devoid of ideas like qualities. Thus I am inclined to the view that consciousness in some form must be fundamental quality of the universe. Back, then in the fabric of reality David Deutsch, visiting professor of atomic and laser physics at Oxford I read that reality is actually composed of a multi verse of around ten to the power, five hundred, weakly interacting parallel universes, each slightly different with additional universes, popping into existence from nothing with every elementary quantum interaction. And the Light Stephen Hawking confirm that all these universities are all here all around us all of the time. In the grand design he writes the universe does not just have a single. Or history, but rather every possible version of the universe exists simultaneously. Then to cups things off. Carlo Ravelli Director of the quantum gravity group at university I must say describes time as guy ran in circles. In his book, the Order of time he writes. A continuous trajectory towards the future returns to the originating event to where it began, and he illustrates this with a diagram, showing light cones neatly arranged in a circle. This last idea really set my head spinning. Odd never seen light cones in a circle before. How do we make sense a circular time? It's almost enough to drive onto philosophy. So. I wrote to cargo Ravelli and asked him. This was his reply. In a non rotating black hole there no closed time like. But in a rotating one so-called Kerr blackhall, there are, and you referred me to a book on black holes by Derek. Rain and Edwin Thomas from the University of Leicester which you to flee read. It was not mention of rotating black holes in Raviolis book. The assertion time goes round in circles was offered without qualification. This is at least mall misleading and I eve reader like me could be forgiven for concluding that if they lived long enough, that could weakness. They're on birth. Yet at least mathematically or pathologically. It seems Ravelli is correct. As Rain and Thomas Writing the book on Black Holes. The metric exhibits another interesting pathology. It contains closed time like curves along which an observer would appear to be able to travel into his or her own past. Well, that's almost right for his Ryan and Thomas go onto explain. These closed time like paths occur only in the region that is a negative distance from a black hole singularity. In the region where are is less than zero. Now, what my dismay! What is negative distance? Or a circle with negative radius. Somewhat euphemistically. Raining tonight described this so-called pathology as a topic. and qualify their observation with the following. The exotic properties of the curse solution interior to the event horizon. Do, not represent the situation in a black hole that is formed by collapsing matter. Well. I guess that settles it. For what other kinds of black hole are there? Or do black holes also create themselves from nothing? I'm convinced look further. That game nine hundred and sixty to the mathematician Roy Patrick Kerr found an exact solution to the Einstein field equations of relativity, and with a colleague Alfred Shield described the space time geometry, the so-called car shield metric of rotating uncharged black blackhall's. This geometry describes the singularity at the center of a black hole as a ring. And closed time like loops as trajectories that pass through that ring. For his work on black holes could was awarded the two thousand sixteen crafoord prize for astronomy by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences. Actor Symposium Commemorating his award. Kerr explained that this ring singularity at the center of Blackhall is not physical. It's just a mathematical artifact, and you couldn't get down there and pass through it. Even if it was physical, it's not physically possible to pass through singularity. So, according to Roy Kerr time doesn't really go round in circles is just an artifact of mathematics, just square roots of complex variable circles with negative radius and so on. Armed with this new insight. I wrote again to Carlo Ravelli and asked if this didn't Contra indicate his suggestion of closed time like curves his reply. The closed time like curves differently there in the study solution, they are therefore allowed by the theory. The question is whether in concrete astrophysical cases. They are realized. The difference between concrete astrophysical cases and the executive solution is at the second static while the first is only approximately so after collapse as far as I understand the real metric in concrete astrophysical collapse is not known so there is indeed a margin of uncertainty, but there is known that should appro Prioriti- prevent the closed time like curves to be realized. So as Ravelli said, the real metric is unknown. In other words, we're not sure that characterization of what goes on inside black holes is correct. Ravioli admits imagine of uncertainty possibly due to the complete absence of empirical evidence, and yet he concludes. There is nothing contradictory with close time like curves. They are only unfamiliar, and they raise naive silly fears. Somebody could kill her mother and prevent us from existing. Or, perhaps even giving birth to ourselves. For many theoretical physicists have spoken to including Revilla, it seems that reality doesn't have to be real physical. It can be anything at all. That is not forbidden by mathematics. If the equations of some theory suggests the time goes around in circles, then counter intuitive as that may seem. There is no real reason to suppose that it is not how things actually our. Pets that K. in virtual universe made of mathematics information. But that's not the universe I inhabit, and I remain unconvinced. I'm sticking with the idea that our scientific theories as opposed to accord with the way the world actually is rather than the other way around. The existence of an objective reality is not a question for scientific determination. Philosophers it's not even a question for philosophical determination. It's simply not a question. It cannot be posed in any form in which the question of reality is not already big. Rather it is more like a stance. We assume a position on reality and then lean on that position to pose and to answer scientific and philosophical questions. And the proper stance for physics by definition is to take reality to be physical and not merely abstract mathematical. As Sabina filled at the Franklin. Institute of advanced. Studies observes. We can never prove any math to be a true description of nature for the only provable truth are about mathematical structures themselves not about the relation of these structures to reality. Hence rigidity is a meaningful criterion. Only once we fix a backbone of assumptions from which to make deductions. and. How mathematics connect to reality is a mystery. The plate philosophers long before they were scientists and we aren't any wiser today. Medics is too general as markle crater at the Holon Institute of Technology in Israel observed. He says physics is about everything. One can see here or think about in the whole world. Mathematics is about everything. Putting together. Everything red produces a story something like this. In the beginning, there was only physical nothingness. Then thirteen point eight billion years ago, information about the future development of the laws of physics caused this nothingness to explode into a multidimensional universe of quantum probabilities compose purely virtual information and mathematics. Further information about the future evolution of human consciousness, then collapsed some of these probabilities into subject physical matter. From this moment, perturbations in the quantum consciousness field caused many more physical universes to pop out of the remaining nothingness, and we currently exist inside around ten to the power five hundred of them. The whole Shebang is expanding at an ever accelerating rate. Creating war quantum nothing this goes. And with time going round in circles at consciousness is even now hurtling at the speed of light towards its own creation. The list of references reads like physics. Who's who including at least three Nobel laureates the Heisenberg John. Wheeler and let's plank. So is this the correct account of the evolution of the universe? Can't really say. I kinda even work at what is supposed to mean. For Lawrence Krauss. Nothing isn't nothing it something. For Cutler rebellion. Anton Zeilinger, and several others matter doesn't matter anymore and what we call physical stop is in physical. For David Deutsche and Fred Wolf. The universe the everything there is isn't everything there is. An for Mex- plank an injury step. Reality isn't real. It's an artifact of the field of quantum consciousness. And the SABINA wholesome filled notes with thinly veiled suspicion. The missing bits of all their theories are conveniently just a little too small to be observed. Now, even fiddling with the semantics isn't enough to make sense of this story. By any measure of reasonableness, this creation myth is harder to swallow than the story. Obvious taught Sunday school. And I'm not the only one to struggle with it as Sabina Hudson filter the rights. I can't believe what is once. Venerable profession has become. Theoretical physicists used to explain what was observed now they try to explain why they can't explain what was not observed and they not even good at that. Some non physicists non-plussed. For example Michaela Musseimi, professor of philosophy of Science, at the University of Edinburgh, writes. The received view up to the nineteen sixties was that scientific progress was to be understood in terms of producing theories. It were more or less likely to be true. This view was in part replaced by an alternative that sees the measure of scientific success as our ability to solve. Mathematical problems and puzzles regardless of whether or not, there is an ideal limit of scientific inquiry to which we are all converging. And even physicists becoming disillusioned. Lease Molin thinks physics in particular string theories in trouble. Philip Ball thinks it's beyond weird. Peter. voight thinks it's not even wrong. And somewhat more cautiously MEX-. SCHLOSS Heller and his colleagues conclude that the scientific community is in a peculiar situation. And it is peculiar. Thomas Van Flanders a former specialist in celestial mechanics at the US naval observatory diagnose the problem as follows. Physics has given up its principal. A strength of physics historically has been the discipline. It brings mathematics by relating directly to nature. Forgetting this has surely been to the detriment of progress in physics. David Bone former professor of theoretical physics at Birkbeck College. London agrees. In the old days, people used to explain things. Now by is not necessary. And Sabino Hosue felder is similarly troubled. In her book lost in Math, she writes. Someone needs to talk me out of my growing suspicion that theoretical physicist, collectively delusional, unable or unwilling to recognize their scientific procedures. So. What else you ready go physicist doing? Do. They really think they're describing the physical world that we all inhabit. and. Do they really expect us to believe them? Personally I'm going to side with the cat. I think we are romance. Really. Tibo Mona is an honorary associate in the Department of Philosophy at the University of Sydney, and it's worth remembering that all that weird sounding physics strangely enough is the basis for the modern electronics industry and it works.
At 74, President Trump Is at Higher Risk of COVID-19 Complications
"At seventy four president trump is at higher risk of covid nineteen complications by Alice Park. The News that US President Donald Trump and first lady melania trump tested positive for covid nineteen is a reminder of to stark truths that we've known since the first days that the novel coronavirus reached the United. States that the virus respects no boundaries and that older people are at higher risk of getting infected about ten months into the pandemic. The science shows that the. Elderly not only remain more vulnerable to infections, but are also more likely to develop severe illness about eighty percent of deaths in the US from covid nineteen have occurred in those sixty five or older according to the US Centers for disease, control and Prevention. At this point, trump seventy four doesn't appear to share many of the risk factors that make older people more susceptible to. Infection and severe disease. The highest percentage of deaths among older patients with cove nineteen for example, occur among those with other medical conditions and in shared living facilities such as nursing homes. The president's physical home from last summer however revealed, he had a body mass index that would categorize him as obese of just barely that's one of the CDC's risk factors for developing severe. COVID nineteen still health experts have learned that it's hard to predict how individual people will respond to infection. It's not a black and white picture at all says Leslie Russell Adjunct Associate Professor at Menzies, Center for health. Policy at the University of Sydney and former health policy advisor to the Obama Administration. We know this is a very strange disease and all sorts of things happen. While advanced age May. The risk of severe disease doctors have also learned in more recent months about how to reduce that risk increased testing capacity which trump has been criticized for suppressing in the early days of the pandemic is helping to detect cases earlier, which allows doctors to better monitor patients when symptoms worsen the president and first lady were tested when one of his staff members hope Hicks who traveled with trump to the presidential debate this week tested positive while there are no formally approved antiviral drugs to treat covid nineteen, there are. Experimental medications such as Rendez Aveer which the US Food and Drug Administration has authorized on an emergency use basis to treat the disease. The agency has also authorized steroid and other anti inflammatory medications to help suppress some of the inflammation that's linked to severe Z's and can impair people's ability to breathe on their own. All of these efforts are contributing to lowering death rates among those who are infected says Dr Leong Sue Co. Director of Global. Health at the national. University of Singapore's sauce we hawks school of Public Health. Hospitals in most countries around the world are longer wellness the way they were in Wuhan or northern Italy, for instance. Especially, in high income countries with good healthcare systems, supportive care can help to prevent deaths for now trump and the first lady have begun to self isolate and can only wait and see if they develop symptoms. The president's Dr Shawn Conley said trump in the first lady are both well, at this time studies have not shown that starting antiviral or other therapies early in the Disease can prevent progression of the disease but knowledge about treating early infection is still evolving including when and how to use drugs like Ramda's Aveer at the point that trump is now in the disease process, there is no treatment says Russell. Politically to the country. Now enters wait and see mode as the president and First Lady's result adds further chaos to an already turbulent election season. With reporting by Laney Baron in Hong? Kong.
How border closures failed in 1919
"This is an ABC podcast. Domestic and suppress covid nineteen, getting stranded by the day as of this morning Nuhad border is in place between Victoria and New South wiles on the Victorian border with South Australia is causing this evening to they're also millions heading into a tough new lockdown. Greta Melvin from midnight with bands on being outside with more than one person, exercising beyond the city and suburbs and dining cafes and restaurants. Other restrictions coupled with the new hot border closures are dramatic, but not without precedent. In fact, exactly the same things were tried one hundred years ago during the Spanish flu. I'm Steven Smiley and I managed Lovelock Yay and today on the signal way revisiting the moment when containment failed in one, thousand, nine, hundred nineteen, when a brand new virus jump the border from Melbourne up to Sydney before moving onto other states and killing more than fifteen thousand people in a second wave. So why did state containment measures file back then and we avoid the same mistakes this time. Those are unsustainably high numbers of new cases cusp of a second live second wife of what people want to call. This is entirely irrelevant. We have to be realistic about the circumstances that we confront. And that is why the public health time of advise may the to reimpose states three steinheim restrictions effective from midnight tomorrow. For a period of six weeks. So a lot of people especially, but not only the Victorian premier. Daniel Andrews deeply afraid right now. That covid nineteen has run away from us, and not just in Melbourne and the shape that fairly understandable fear is taking is renewed lockdowns and closed borders, and it'll be weeks before we really know whether or not that's worked. But Australia has been here before almost exactly here actually so to hear about it. We called medical historian paid a Hawkins from the University of Sydney. I really WANNA pay together with you at a time line of what happened in the nineteen nineteen influenza pandemic, and we're going to get to that in a sec, but just sort of lay the groundwork. Can you give me a sense about the illness back in nineteen nineteen, and what it was, and how it compares to what we're dealing with today, so in nineteen, eighteen, a new version of the well established influenza. Disease appeared in Europe and the United States. Now. It seemed to be different from the typical. Wind brand pretty much every winter. This one was highly infectious, and as the year nine, thousand, nine, hundred, and on it also became increasingly did like. And what was really alarming about this new form came to be colds finishing twinza. was that he targeted an unusual group, so influence normally. Causes Great Risks for young kids, particularly under the is eight months, and for older folks, service, sixty or sixty five. New Spanish. was actually most deadly and caused serious cases in people who edged about twenty forty years, and that was really unusual time. Now, for a lot of people who call decision of the flu. Like getting dome older by. Headed most vehic heist and I really making having. Trouble, breathing and lungs would fill up with the sort of watery fluid that ended up drowning in their mind. Long fluids and Said said that that was the reason that most of the died. Compared covid nineteen percent me some striking similarities I mean with Code Redundancy designed page profile in grid, saying a more typical. Twins will respiratory disease hallway. The elderly particularly I've Iky highly at risk. Disease Do Coleman. The Attack on the system. So let's talk about how the influenza pandemic of nine thousand, nine, hundred and nine hundred nineteen I mean. How did arrive in Australia? Yes, you said in that answer before that. It was sort of in Europe and north, America. How did we get here in nineteen eighteen? The only way you could arrive in Australia was by ship. There were no aircraft flying into the country that year, and in fact, very first aeroplane to land in Australia from. In December. Nineteen nineteen just stopped pandemic. So basically every case that arrived destroy to come by, and they were a huge number of sheets, coming to Australia in nineteen, ninety eight, because the principal more adjusting. They were normal passenger ships in Friday's, but they were also a huge number of troop transports, bringing high soldiers from the fiscal will. All of these ships were interested at Australian quarantine stations, not a woodmen coin just outside. At Melbourne's acquaint the in. Quarantine Station and also to quarantine station at no hey. They landed and other places like to, but those those three really order front of a water is. Come in and patents with the disease. Anyone who'd being in contact with them were be current than trade. So in fact, civil, MSA the end of Nineteen, ninety? Eight, just one inc.. They will hundreds of people read Spanish flu. Seek and sometimes dying EH destroying corentin stations. Didn't break out quarantine. The disease remind within those quarantine stations. SHEEPS! Okay so so far it is all sounding widdly similar to Australia's early experiences with covert nineteen, a devastating pandemic threatening decline millions of lives in the Northern Hemisphere, but thanks to a quick response and tough border controls, including quarantine protocols Hia Australia was for the most part sped. Yeah, but then some new cases cropped up in Melbourne and the creepy parallels just keep coming. Initially, there was just. Just a small number you know initially there was a few in the hospital, and certainly a range of experts were brought in to observe the cases and one of the problems was that most of the doctors who were familiar with Spanish flu with feel as though with the Australian army medical call and I'd say hundreds of thousands of cases infect in Australia military personnel in Europe Britain. People familiar with the clinical presentation case where mostly? But they were quite a few of the number of doctors who would. In quarantine stations, who'd Clinton cases at pointing to pay and North Head in Sydney as well so they knew what it looked like at least in his the. So when I started appearing a moment of The former flu, I, really enjoy what we're looking at them. They basically said look at. It doesn't seem to have broken out in the community in the way we expect. These people are walking around before they came to hospital, but also the cases were in hospital beaten. Suffering quite as severely as even the people just. Ten kilometers away at the quarantine station. Said I would. I would pretty cautious about it and I didn't WanNA cause panicked I didn't want to admit that this might be the pandemic. Maybe it was in the community that went truly. Hiding. It wasn't a conspiracy. Keeping silent I just wanted to be sure before they let that music because I knew or dramatic social economic impact, it would have he. We had to have much more to be restrictions on movement. But then didn't stay Melvin didn't. Can you tell us what happened next? He's unfortunately Just before the Victorian health authorities realized that actually disposable. A soldier. Only know his. L.! Quoted train from Melbourne to Sydney say he'd come. Home from work is hitting home to Sydney. Quota trying to Melbourne Sydney and he noticed that he was sharing these. He's Comin' on the trying with somebody who is critically ill I would coughing three tonight and really didn't book right well, probably favorite. Pretty Glossy, also as we all know what it's like when you ran somebody who's bad guys. To soldier. Go to Sydney and a couple of days, lyda. curated for sanctuary. He presented the plan ric military hospital. And I was diagnosed with Saudi had some sort of diarrheal save? Gradually. The doctors visiting hostile dog knows he's case. Realize that actually these schools a genuine case all you Monica Windsor. Sadly biding their dory started spreading to the medical and nursing stuff into some of the reasons, but that's how it got adding to the community. Stone? And pretty soon after that the border between yourself files in Victoria. He slammed shot. Would started flying. Right away once was diagnosed as a genuine case of Spanish flair in yourself, because it was very clear that they sold it being noble, and just a few days in. New South Wales knotted accusing Victoria all hiding these cases, or at least not Gog nosing today very rapidly decline you Really on the head handful or cases quite by this stage. They were already three hundred fifty cases in Victoria. Yes okay we have to. So. Despite having agreed between the sites and Komo that the Commonwealth would make decisions about win sites would be claiming victory and win. The boat is because. You said lyles unilaterally said we are closing the border with the Toria inch for. And I did. The Kenyan almost immediately winning outs practically. Now. Victoria! Didn't close the borders US had wiles, but pretty soon after that south. Australian sounds drying Boorda. We've by the story and he's that was close and in Queensland also cars. They voted against New South Wales because it walls. It had declared itself any victims died. Long, after that wish to strategy also weighed to on any cash is coming across. He trying that. We're going to close our borders against anybody coming commodities. At the same time has ninety said well. We're GONNA. Maintain a rigorous maritime. We're GONNA basically carton ship. It's likely to be bringing into the island. And those state borders when they were put up with New South Wales at first and then followed by South Striving Toria, Queensland and Western Australia. How did they enforce the border closure I? mean was it. Was it chaotic? And and this is the last time that it happened right? So I mean what mistake to they make back then that we need to be aware of the very suddenly, and that was probably the major mistake you know. They hadn't they had been some discussion about how to do it, but they hadn't really been planning to have implemented. When you bring down a straightaway and they're trying to Princeton's heading towards the border. And suddenly you're a traveler Princeton. Somebody from a we don't go. He's crossed the border into. What do you do? You will lifted with the money in your pocket. The clothes on your back and not much else. The state governments were saying well. Our responsibility, the Commonwealth government was saying this is not our responsibility. In the meantime people running out of money nowhere to sleep. To fall on the territory of locals to put them up and provide meals and. Also. People to break the rules. Sometimes, these border crossings patrolled by police sometimes. Also. Local residents trying to get home, she. Would sometimes good. The realized I'd swim across the. So they find. That wasn't patrol by the police are gasline. We'll see relying across. Our across the board with. Snake time trying on their white back. Okay, so it was a bit of a mess and the South Wales, Police Commissioner Fuller has apparently read that particular page in history six hundred fifty police currently traveling down to the border to convince the operation, the Shrine Defense Force has agreed to assist be some one hundred members of defense on the ground front Thursday and that will grow to three hundred fifty over the weekend still even if If they had managed to stop every single person sneaking through a nine hundred nineteen, that was the question of timing. Because case numbers were already climbing on both sides of the border. By the time they officially shut it off. So you have to wonder whether it really helped all that much well. It didn't stop this bread, and you south wiles. Sorry on that count. It didn't help it filed. But. Peter does say in a funny way. Some of the other closures did some good between October nine, thousand, nine hundred, and the very first cases started appearing in quarantine in January nineteen, ninety when it broke quarantine. Virus itself had mutated. It actually was mild. It was still very infectious berry easy to catch. But people weren't having nearly as many cases anti. The death rate was much lower in Australia than elsewhere right now that that what's called attenuation to the bars continued so that impact sites that managed to maintain their own border quarantines. Western Australia and Tasmania found that when the virus deed end up entering a site, it was a much milder version and I had a much less to be targeted. Bacteria had hobby anything. The end how badly affected was a strategy by DC INFLUENZA PANDEMIC? And what's the fact that as you say? We got a mild version when the when the outbreaks really started to grow here I mean. Was that critical in? meaning that it wasn't, we weren't as badly affected to some parts of the world. Yes, is the short answer. Straight ahead about the Siamese fiction right as most other parts of the will roughly. We think particularly in the eastern or southeastern states. was about a third. Quarter of the whole population court flute. But the big difference walls at Dick's right was one of the lowest anywhere in the world, so for instance the flu, according to New Zealand in October, nine, thousand, nine, hundred, a similar, demographic, no makeup of the calculation, Sims, health and the racial files and the nutrition on. They headed in October nineteen eighteen onwards. We had January nine hundred ninety three months. Is At least twice as high as. What? Are the lessons from this experience and do you think that we've lent them toys? How to learn lessons from the past? Because the world was so different, than for instance, they were very few telephones with no wireless. There was no television. They was certainly no internet. Exit that though I think one of the most important things? That we have in common with nineteen nineteen. He's the behavior of individuals. Do we choose to stay I? Do Retrieve to cancel holiday. Might we stay where we think see? Those are the measures that worked in nineteen nineteen, and I, also seemingly have been working pretty well on Xtra in twenty twenty two cases for by. Those! Official restrictions and personal choices big. IDEA, he said. Think thinking many ways you know we had chosen as a society to care about each other to try to follow the rules to try to find out the best advice to try to look out for each other. I think no. It's it's. It's being chime all Beasley to say that we're now seeing second way potentially starting to emerge. In nineteen ninety. That's exactly what happened. Sunday was to be restrictions. In the early phases, restrictions started to be relaxed when it looked like the disease control. Unfortunately, it was A. That was twice A. Twice as many this as the first wide, so I think that is listen, we made. By. The tight will happen here, but there's always that risk that just if you think you can relax. Go a little too long a viral disease it's highly fictious. Very deadly could easily get out of control. Even though you thought you'd had conquered just a few weeks earlier. today's episode. If you are enjoying the signal, please take the time to brightest a review on podcasts. From you but also it helps new people who aren't you to find us? Did you WANNA drop us. A wide email is the signal at ABC dot net dot. Aa and we'll be back right here with new episode tomorrow. We'll catch. By. You've been listening to an ABC podcast discover more great ABC podcasts live radio and exclusive on the ABC listen APP.
Young Great White Sharks Eat Off the Floor
"This is scientific. Americans sixty seconds science I'm Jason Goldman. The image of a Dorsal fin cutting through the surface is iconic. But scientists studying the stomach contents of young great white sharks off the coast of Australia. We're in for a surprise. When they learned that the predators seemed to spend a lot of time, patrolling the sea floor. They have predominantly fish based diet, which is not unexpected for juvenile watch shocks, the most important price basing we have been fibers Australian Salmon University of Sydney Graduate Student Richard Grainger. He and his team sorted through the stomach contents of more than fifty juvenile white sharks that died after being entangled. Entangled in shark exclusion, nets meant to protect swimmers. The expected finding was just the diversity and importance of bottom dwelling species, things like stock cases which their selves in the Santa Quite strange, looking fish and flathead, but also seeing rights, people actually did not have a good idea of the particulars of great white shark diets as Grainger points out the sharks enjoy protections throughout the world, so most researchers estimated their diets through the chemical markers that they can ethically access by taking small skin samples. These measurements indicate at what level of the food chain the predators feeding, but not the actual critters that make up their meals. That's quite a lot of evidence that lots of different animals, so even cannibals noble have proposed self select different prey foods based on a particular balance of nutrients. Grainger hopes that by further understanding. WHAT JUVENILE WHITE SHARKS TO EAT! He can begin to piece together. How and why they make? Make their predatory choices. The study was published in the Journal Frontiers in Marine Science on the sanding and predicting when shocks might be more abundant in certain areas would be an end goal, avoiding or mitigating human shark conflicts means understanding the sharks nutritional goals, and if researchers can anticipate, where, and when sharks are likely to spend their time hunting, they can better protect humans from getting bid and sharks from getting killed. Thanks for listening for scientific Americans sixty seconds. Science Jason Goldman.
#104 - Why Climate Change Is A Mental Health Crisis
"Just before we get started this episode discusses mental health. So if it raises anything for you, you can always call lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. What are some of your biggest concerns when it comes to climate change? I'll go. So this is Lucy Chen Lucy's student and young Australian active in the climate action space. She has a history with a wide double see the Estrela, Ian, youth climate coalition, and is currently working at WWF Australia, and like most of the next generation. I think one of my biggest concerns is just for the future. I'm still figuring out my personal connection to climate change. I'm still not sure where my personal story fits into it. And what you mean by your personal story when you go to like a climate action group, oh like organization the way they talk to people is like connecting a personal narrative to climate change. And that's how you connect with people because everyone has a reason why they really care about climate change people really care about things like climate Justice, for example. All food security all energy. And I'm still like, I'm not sure a lot of people are like, oh, I'm involved because of my kids more about their future. But we are that generation that's going to experience the full effect of that like the baby boomers by the time. It really really hits us. They probably not going to be around for much longer or probably not even be around. We are nerd so even just being a young person is a personal connection because we are going to have to face these consequences than we've grown up knowing about climate change, and knowing that the effects that's going to have an future, and knowing that there's people in the world who are going to be dead when that happens, but this still screwing it up for the rest of us. I know a lot of people are very demerger fated by how things are continuing to happen. Like having Scott Morrison as our prime minister and most apprised as environment minister who was a previous lawyer for mining company. People super distrustful of the system, they sort of feel powerless into some powered as individuals with nothing, and then this huge corporations that can just get away with whatever they want to do which is really sad to think about as quite depressing actually even just being an ordinary person like incident, he who's relatively privileged and well often has air conditioning and has resources and infrastructure in good health care. I think people are very disempowered and annoyed at the system. But also feel like they can't do anything about it. That's how I perceive the general sentiment of people who somewhat are engage. Or can. The west inning of climate events around the globe. Rising temperatures in further strain on crucial natural resources has left the planets next generation my generation with not just an environmental crisis. But an existential one way on top of feeling disempowered and removed from the decision making that could pave the way for green of future. There's an overwhelming sense of desperation and stress that it's too late much of the conversation around climate change up until now has been focused on the gravity of the damage. The science the projections changing where the patents, but what's becoming clear is the significance of the personal narrative and how it's not only affecting the planet. But it's people. Today on the Shire how climate change is shaping up to be a mental health disaster. This is think sustainability I'm Jake Malkin. What do we know about the mental health impacts of climate change? What do we know? Currently what we know is mostly by inference establishing the impacts of climate change on any aspects of health is Rudy difficult. So for example, how do you know, how much of someone's heart attack with coast by climate change is on the fact is very difficult thing to Hillen berry professor of climate change in mental health at the university of Sydney says while it's hard to weed out the role climate change may play. They always to determine the burden. It has on mental health and how that Boden is growing. We know that mental health problems increase during hate waves as do also while the health problems. So we can look current pasta and matchup, for example, how many hospital admissions they were mental health problems during particular heat lives in different parts of the country. And from that we can. Work out won't hate stunts to people's mental health from the point of view of hostile missions than taking those figures, they can line them up against heatwave projections and begin to map the extent of the bowdoin as these events become more frequent the same kind of thing can be done for general mental health across the population will suicides, however Hillen says what makes this area so complex and hard to quantify is not only in severe weather effect, the mental health of the general population. It can also trigger those living with an existing mental illness right are some psychotic disorders, which are quite well controlled by drug coalition lithium is on stabile over thirty five degrees. So if you have a psychotic to sort of show taking the Sam in the weather's very very Holt. You'll drunk might not be effective for you in that that could prevent the benefits of the trunk tanking while they are. Growing pool of international research is pushing these ideas forward global documents such as the Lancet countdown on health and climate change continue to prioritize physical health such as respiratory problems in the spread of infectious diseases ova mental health, and why do you think trailed behind looking into I guess the physical repercussions of something like climate change. I think for the same reason it trials behind in everything one is it's highly stigmatized misunderstood so PayPal still feel very ashamed of mental health problems on their own all that close relatives problems and very poorly. Understood still people still have a whole lot of strange ideas about women's health problems. All and the other is I think that it's always been the Cinderella of health. So as being no history of health services, mental health compared to other types of health problem and very little research funding. So it's just being undefended. Area from the point of Europe services and research and that flows over into comet change mental health research. So to the extent that there's any funding of research into climate change. It's not into mental health. Without the complete picture. But at the same time, recognizing the Claiborne population is growing, and that more of us likely to be affected by some sort of climate crisis. Helen says it's safe to conclude the volume of people presenting to a mental health service will increase, but the question is do you think how services a ready for that? The absolute not health services generally on already coming and I mean JP's hospital Seattle some health services about mental health services, particularly because mental health services, they're already so grossly onto funded and pressured that will ready so on to meet the need that any increase in the need, particularly any shop increase in the need will be Welby Olmec pest to manage. Emergency departments and police stations are the typical frontlines full mental health service delivery. But for those on the frontline of environmental two Sasa, Jennifer from the disaster in community crisis. Cinta at the university of Missouri Columbia says the immediate concern is to ensure physical safety. Do you think that in this context of immediate post disaster that mental health is brushed under the rug? Don't think I would say it's being swept under the rug. But I do think that there is multiple steps, I guess in recovery and much of the first star media safety, physical safety. Jennifer explains mental health care post, his Austa, including climate events is provided into different environments, the acute and chronic cute. I mean immediate reactions. So people may display things like shock stress reactions, so they might be experiencing anxiety. They might be emotionally upset and then those acute reactions sometimes become more chronic what I mean by chronic would be ongoing so say after the first four to six weeks, if individuals are still showing trauma, shock stress in their social relationships sleeping problems. That's when it starts to passably impact their ability to function, if we're looking to the acute environment will do those services look like, and how might they be different than standard, chronic mental health services. So when we're talking about mental health services during the acute phase or to acute reactions evidence has shown intervention such as psychological first aid the type of intervention that. Is very much about meeting the survivors, basic needs I providing them with comforts care safety. And then it begins to move into as time goes on helping individual coping skills just trying to get individuals back on their feet, connecting them with social sports. And then in terms of long term, mental health services, connect individuals who are experiencing these more long-term effects like post traumatic stress disorder or depression, connect than to more formal support a clinician or counselor social worker, having coworkers the members of the community affected deliver services, like psychological first aid as opposed to flying people in Jennifer emphasizes is crucial in ensuring access but explains they remain a series of systemic barriers that. Went in many cases, those leaving on the frontlines from accessing the kid they need both physical and mental disproportionately. I would say that marginalized individuals and communities often bear the brunt. These types of ants thinking about things like language barriers. So a fall of the services in resources are only in one language and a community is multi-lingual. In addition, a social inequalities like racism, there's also sexism I collaborated in lead in research following the we had a major EFI tornado in Joplin zuri back in two thousand eleven recently also looked at events following hurricane Harvey in Houston in these studies. What we've captured we've mainly focused on looking at longer term post traumatic stress disorder depression. But have also looked at strains on social relationships. So some of the work I've done has highlighted that. Gender-based violence has been found to increase in prevalence and severity for women following a large-scale disaster event in to insert climate change Jennifer's concern is not only on mental health resources already stretched too thin, but more frequent climate events placing greater pressure on the services leaves these social groups even move on Rable. The devastating effects of climate change. Also pose a very dock reality for a number of communities around the world forced migration, where xenophobic conversations around the availability of space job security, and cultural clashes all work to diminish the mental scarring of being full Sidley removed from your homeland Helen berry, professor of mental health and climate change. At the university of Sydney says it's not only the prospect of losing the life. You once had that can be damaging, but to the process of resettlement. Semi 'grants can be an often off particularly in the non plans chosen traumatized by migration. Experience on the fact they had to migrate in the loss of their homeland sometimes Ponulele, and by what might have happened during the migration itself, you know, where they they may have sustained huge economic losses all received injuries all lost people close to the mall sorts of really traumatizing terrible things can happen in the process of migrating, particularly when it's a full st- -mergency kind of situation, and then people can find that they they don't like the place they've ended up and if ended up there permanently, and they don't like it. That's a real problem. They might not like the cultural the food or the climate will look the place, and then they may just be desperately homesick console on. And when it comes to migrate Shen in relation to climate change. I think we need to approach very. Thoughtfully and with a great deal of foresight. And luckily, we've a little hindsight that we can use to help us understand what some of the key factors to look at him. What to expect source of things we should plan full, and we should be planning in Australia. We have numerous neighbors not just on islands. But some in neighboring countries who may need for climate change related reasons to to make a of that home temporarily pem Nutley, and that's non accommodation that we're having an it's one should be having publicly and across the country. And we're talking about host disasterous Bunce's here. Other any pre disaster if it's absolutely Jennifer I thinking about how can we begin to build coping and resilience responses in a community even before events like this occurs. How do you go about making a community resilient typically bringing together various systems in a community healthcare emergency management's schools? Mehager health clinics bringing those groups together to think about and prepare for if novem- like this happened in many states are doing this. That they are populations around the world, integrating services and building community resilience to prepare for their next and not their first climate disaster continues to do little in holding global communities to account namely developed nations who's reckless and climate insensitive actions have forced vulnerable populations into crisis in the first place. Climate change is being Kohl's primarily by the wealthy countries on his felt primarily by the pool countries. And while people in a place like a stray on might question, how the short staffing of psychological first aid workers in a country rattled by climate disaster would have anything to do with them Helen argues. It's this missing link a missing link in the public psyche and global discourse that climate change is an issue of systems, and that not only do the actions of conglomerates and governments impact developing nations, but close social and economic disruption on their own soil. It's not a matter of climate change causes more heat waves Kohl's hot financier, mental health problems. It's that simple and climate change is self is an outcome of of bega system. If you not about how the world us it's power and unresolved says on who gets to control. Let's and who gets to say hell those things us. So if you like climate change is a reason because we as a human rice have misused planetary resources, and it's not we as the human race in its entirety. It's a particular sector of the human rights that has done that. And that in itself is part of the dynamic plays into how climate change is related to mental health. So if you have major floods affecting them towns and cities as well as rural areas, there's a limit to how many times even the wealthiest countries in the world of fool to rebuild roads and bridges and rail lines, and there's a limit how many times insurance companies can afford to pay for people to rebuild the houses all fix up. They find midge and so on so won't if these things place enormous economic pressure on communities, I know nations, and those things mean, you know, the dole is that have to be spent on preparing repairing off too. Climate related whether to sauces dollas, the Tonto by lable, health and education and other things that we might want to spend taxpayer dollars on. Helen is pushing for mental health indicators to be included in international climate documents such as the Lancet countdown from where they occurrence absent. Did you say in the global report, they wouldn't are mental health indicators? Yeah, there are no mental health indicate his yet, and the stralia national document the first of its kind around the world was launched today. The medical journal of stralia Lancet countdown on health and climate change ustralian policy inaction threatens lives, the document outlines it's crucial to frame climate change through a systems thinking approach and more. Importantly, Ray the discussion to not place the burden as it's often fields on the individual advice around climate change. A mental health is crystal named visual, you know, telling people to eight less mates. Cycle can do meditation mindfulness than go to counseling if they need to elect kind of thing that kinda missing the points in a way because as individuals as limit to what we can do. And I think place in a lot of pressure on individuals to postnatally tackle, the problems of climate change is actually a respective mental health most Ivan helpful, but if we encourage people and help people you have governments were able to provide some support in assistance to take action in groups with like minded people to come up with some ideas and start to implement a few of them, then you'd be much will likely to to feel capable of participating in the doing will on your own. These group led approaches are concept familia too young activists Lucy Chen who says collective action makes the existential threat of climate change same not so existential one of the recent examples is went with by-election because of the thousands of donuts that we did I was up in the get up office calling like about three or four nights of three weeks. Just calling ordinary people and like talking to them and like making them consider. Maybe it's time to, you know, show the liberal party that they con- just keep doing this and have no consequences, if this is going to come with the consequence of losing this eats and losing that parliamentary majority that they had been part of this movement of people who really care is really really empowering if you're isolated from people who care about the issue enough to do something about it. Then you'll feel a lot more isolated than if you were around this whole bunch of people who are. Motivated, they put in so much time and energy. Even if you yourself do not feel like you have the capacity to do stuff about things, it's very impairing to be part of that. And to see that people are doing things about it. And that slowly. But surely we can make a difference yet. Increasingly people's experience of climate change is being described as a collective trauma where typically we ascribe trauma to an individual now groups of people in communities ole living the same experience, and while the volume of people subject to climate disaster willing, crease they'll also be more of us banding together to do something about it. Think sustainability is made possible with the support of to the university of technology and his hurt around the stray Leah by the community radio network thinks stain ability is made in Sydney on gaggle end of the urination who sovereignty was never sated. You can subscribe to the show wherever you get your pug costs where also on itunes. I'm check him catch next time.
What if data isn't the new oil? what if it is as important as the air we breathe? & what do we need to think about to be able to effectively govern data? with DANIELLA TRAINO
"Hi Welcome to the cyber security. jazzed. Louisa and Beverly Bring you the experts, the stories and the research impacting the cybersecurity professions. Louisa data. It's everywhere a night in your living room. Apparently it is tell US small. Actually my husband is plowing through the back catalogue of Star Trek at the moment, and there is a character called data. So I've. I've learned. There are many different sorts of data, and we are seeing so much data created. So much data collected. And we know that it has volleyed criminals. We've talked about on previous pope costs, and we know how it can be used to manipulate outcomes like election results. And we also know that it feeds into. The algorithms that are used by artificial intelligence and machine learning. So I think the question we need to answer as a profession is. Do we have the right systems in place the right structures that we need now and in the future Ashley to effectively govern data to be able to verify it and also. Check. Checketts integrity and ensure that we're keeping the information that needs to be kept private private, so there's some really big questions we face, and there's a lot of debate about all of those topics, but we have someone today. That is joining us. Chain who say's US working with innovators, scientists researchers policymakers to help shape and stopped bringing some of those issues together. Look, she's GonNa Finger inside many ponies spock festival. Yeah, it was reading that she was the cyber track leader for spark. Festival and She's also a volunteer at startup editor as well, so yes, she's really embedded in that environment and yeah I couldn't think of anybody more perfect to come talk to us about these big issues today, so let's get on with the. Today. We have Danny Allah Traina and Daniella has a fantastic mantra. The base way to predict the future is to go and create. It is so. I love it. Hi Donna! Thanks for joining us today and I wanted to talk to you about how you landed inside the security. Can you share that story with us? I think you'll find that. Rassam have a stripe paw and. I. I did my computer science end commerce. Degree out of University of Sydney and I felt for. revolved around business, so I landed straight into a consulting gig during financial audits and. Finance projects and things like that and dumb and on the floor I was also technology people, and after a while that was having so much fun I wanted to find out what will. They were doing at that point. They were raking systems, so they were doing. What was none of the time as ethical hacking. So! I put my skills to use of learning how to break system some. Everyman's Doug at the time was learning after. Hacking exposed was the book. Now they've built silence various subtitles. How so I had so much fun that I ended up staying more on the technology side and doing technology strategy and things like that and then fast forward a couple of years than I ended up working in banking finance. Did. A couple of gigs chief security officer. Then found my place in our day when I felt that some I was too much on the consumer of the face, and must have been a way to be able to design what we really needs. And the differently soy landed in what I thought was one of the mice amazing places in Australia Anita. which was not into. The. became data sixty one. And yeah I started working in the innovation ecosystem so many other things that I could talk to, but cybersecurity was just an exciting place to be even back many years ago. Because, we were able to Find the weaknesses and build strongest systems and structures as a result and I just I love talking to helping themselves problems during that with creativity in cybersecurity. Just gave me that ability. Fantastic I'm eight years when you're at Sira and it adjusts become Dada sixty one and I just loved the way that you thought about had solve some of these problems. We had some serious. Challenges Around Finding, Nasty Threat Act is on the dock net, and we got to work together to China solving that problem in wiped out that we had some really common threads Iran had to address Z. She, so it was really just fantastic. I wanted to talk to you about data. Program programmable data driven software and this big discussion around who owns the data. I know. You've got some really interesting views on that. Do you want to share that with us? Yes sir thanks for the very bored question which I think could take our dissect, so we'll ask around a couple of things out in that vein. It's no surprise that building economies and. Societies that dodgers driven not seeing happening to the last few years, coined that term recently some of those in the oil business now at are the daughters the oil I would like to think that it's actually the AD. Rebrith it. You just can't get around But it calls into question, a couple of things are. Whether the daughter is. Freely given whether it has the bias of the the honor of the Creator over. Can you trust where it was created or where it was manufactured should. Wear was actually manipulated. Managed so cool took a whole bunch of questions, but also the fact is what do you do with it? And just because the data says the sky is blue. Does that mean skies blurred closing into question? aspects of how we live. How Breezy in how he build businesses in how we operate. You can't do around I. Think the statistic out there that. For every Internet minutes, there is trillions of data. EXABYTES Dada Bank created in every sense spot generating Dada for everything we do rather that is the data from documents and things like that that we know involved in have full-time or more interesting. It's the. Human driven data, so it's the wild dot that we created that al.. On DNA sequence Keep in touch with Japan projects or whether it's in a movements this interesting research riches still very early days. It hasn't yet been proven, but you know even the way we walk out. Humour Gates out the way we expend energy now. Body has a level of fingerprint that could determine who we are all how we behave what that means. We've talked about biometrics in the data that we can collect generate from there whether it's a fingerprints or whether it's irises I mean. There was a cybersecurity industry couple years ago line that would be a new way of identifying and also rising. Mechanisms, but that's obviously being with a whole bunch of issues that we've yet to talk provider and ethics since. The the right to hold that data, but then we ask ourselves. If that's what the purpose of that data is, then you should have become reminds because let's face it isn't it will be at some point. We know more in the future than we know today. when it's compromised, had a we reassert that Dada that has integrity, and if we've used it to determine our ability to take out a learn. Or who we are than this whole concept of fake news comes into being of while we really. Can we provide identity when that provable point is lost or is called into question? How can we assert? That identity. How can we search what that data was meant to out identify? Sorry, it's cooling into Really interesting things in sorry aspects. Tillerson talked about, but if you say what's happening fake years. Which? Calls into question the integrity of subject. And issue say what gentleman's like today You might even question. That was long term coming. Integrity. But as you see what's happening with us, which is really just? The. Old fashioned military tactics of propaganda going on steroids now the technology enables that then you can see that the next leap of that is. Psych identity. and. If you can see that as a military tactic or a tactic used for espionage and other techniques than you start to ask yourself then how do we build trust into all of these things where we will end the data today, the deciding factors whether or not we trusted or not, sir, it goes into our system that we have in place a causing to question the system assistance way operating in ankles into question whether the systems that we built over the centuries in millennial will stand the test of time even that we are now effectively generating daughter suggesting the daughter. The Peter Integrity Daddy's Ms Save elevation. Helicopter View All. That is just brilliant, and I think I need to probably PECs some of it. Yes, go for it, so I think if I'm hearing you correctly I think we've probably just stopped with something. As by seekers avery body now knows about Cambridge Analytica, and how that manipulated the most fundamental rot that we have in a society divide, so I think that's one pot of in captialising what you're saying. I think the other part of it is that we've seen identity theft before. But was saying at now in a really in a way that very high profile people images obeying. Scammed and taken his? Purporting something that. Is really valuable to society, so it's no longer Dan at the citizen level off. Way Don't want people to have identity theft, and we and we're trying to work out Maine's of preventing. But! This is really at our political structures as a hating plice. Is that are influencing the sort of day to day decisions that we make in a Democracy Ron thirdly ending. Fewer as a historian of military strategy you could save is coming, so you would say that. In wellcoll to win, they did the. Propaganda dropped said of the airplanes ever pots of Europe to try to change the sentiment on the grounds of what was happening either to suggest that. War had been finished old that the Nazis worse strengthening that position or the the Russians were they saw the fascists with that. The very simple techniques like anything technology advances can be used for nefarious purposes in anyone in cybersecurity industry would have a local You're not. Sorry. Sense to question that if you want to. Influence or Take control at a political level. You would try to stabilize democracies what that means seeing that across the world with the way they've done it using years. Some of the advances which are good for cybersecurity in computer vision. They're also being used to. Change the perception office. Is this really barrack? Obama? Is this really Britney's fees? Notable people and it's very difficult to tell whether that is the real customer or not, and I think that's where I think. Cyber innovation can actually row because you look at these techniques new. Say Well if I'm the person of. Importance or Personality She WanNa, use that term. You'll brand what you stand for, and who you are is is how you actually generating ring come, but it's also what you personally stand for new values, so I can honestly say that there are going to be needing to be reputational risk services out there. To protect those brands into provide some sort of metrics that says what you're dealing with is the real deal, and then you can translate that into into business branding, which things that we've always needed, but I think cybersecurity has a role to play I also think that with what you're saying around the right to. Privacy in that sorts of things. You know if we were to take the other side of it instead of being very much. The hamster in the wheel, and obviously being on the defensive side. If we took a proactive, you those are the technologies cyber security measures that we need to be strengthening, and maybe that should change the way we develop. These new products and capabilities said that we build trust into these things so that people can tell when it's fake. That can tell when being manipulated, and they have a level of integrity confidence, so the tough question is had we go about doing that. How do we build those reputational risk models and put those God rousing. We can stop understanding the difference between trust and trustworthiness. The answer. I didn't. Check says they fully layers and. They're it's not assume palance, because you're trying to influence at so many points, and like anything inside the security needs to be. The economics needs to be in favor of doing so doing something differently. And I. Think the we haven't hit that point just yet. It's almost like you need. Crisis denied that you need cyber insurance, or you need efficiency outside security. So I think it's about starting small improving that these capabilities can add the value that we see generally sorry. There are already brand reputation services. But. Taking that next leap in taking some of the research that's happening in parallel industries in marketing the like and bringing that into some small a wins in showing how it can be done, I. Think is the way to stop. On Privacy Lind's for example privacy, preserving technologies have been around for quite some time, so they knew, but they haven't been able to find the scale. They haven't been able to find the right application and the Ryan needs sir. Consumers don't pay for privacy that just assume they get like public health. and. That's not into union. You realize how important it was I. I think with the GDP coming out on a lot about the regulatory discussions. You probably see that with the US California. New York has just been debating some of that a few other things. Change in the language about saying that it's privacy human rights. Means that we ought to look at having privacy by design initial somebody's technologies become necessary rather than a nice to have. Our, but it's actually about achieving scale and USABILITY. Unfortunately a lot of these things they still provide too much friction I always thought a password was going to be long gone by twenty, thousand and nineteen, but. Willem Bohol, we still have them. Why because they'll turn is still too hot to US and scale, and they have other problems that are unintended consequences. Bite the biometrics so I. Think it's about saying. Take a particular problem find a very simple way of solving the making sure that there's an economic case to be used for and Judy Pr, thankful Olis' unintended consequences, which pretty poor. Few were the ones who got Willis pop-ups. You got allies. Sign here except the cookies in. Where's the security? I got more privacy by doing that. It's a I think that's a trigger point for us to be asking different questions. And building some small solutions that can sure that you're not. You're not increasing the cost of doing business you're. You're not making it harder for the consumer to to get to do what they need to do. But. Joel, you're making it not why not bots You're making it a wine, not not if question sorry. You've got a chunk down. Unfortunately, cybersecurity and privacy is still seem to be too esoteric, and while the research is here in abroad during a lot of really interesting cutting edge research, which in a couple of years could see the light of day into something more applications based. It's still staying at the barrier to using some of these things is still considered high, and there's a bit of That's why you start to see some reaction. I would say that they still a lot of apathy e not at our level I, think it a citizen level trade off of convenience and not understanding or rating. The privacy folks nee little icons, and the icons nay to be Outta. Do Care about it I you signing in your opting out robin twenty five pages, because when a teenager child says I want that new application. They want it they in then in there, so apparent is on the Giresse to say. Kay! Click Click now, so I think that's kind of one problem site. Nothing the other rates that. The the convenience thing is not driving any of this, because and as you said, it's almost like made some massive train rake in order for average consumers to stop saying I, completely, now understand only implications of what's going on with my privacy from a health collection biometric data. You know some of the things that you talked about before. Because if you bring it down to the consumer level, and that's what it's all about. Really he's not. We'll see I I look at it this way and. It may not bates everyone's liking, but I think that in in Cybersecurity and privacy we have. We have an economic issue. It's unbalanced. It costs a lot to put in privacy, but it doesn't cost as much. To be impacted by it because the cost isn't one by the person who actually owns the data. Sorry, it's too down the track. So I like to think that there's a role. He government regulators to really make a difference, and I don't mean by over-regulating, but I mean by making it. Question of if you if you don't need that level of information to do business or to provide the service, such provide that capability than it should be super expensive to collect it and manage it. So you change the economic model so for example Y. When I go buy a pair of shoes. Maybe. It's my hundreds. Pay It, but when I go by that pair of shoes. Why does the shocked need tonight minded a Mile Address Marshall Details Address Y. you don't shipping it to me. Your not paying you not giving you buy protection. So why do you need to ask for this and so as a consumer if we're just looking at consumer level? I? Feel that I had the I'm not empowered to say no I will not give you this information because you have to in order to get your your pair of shoes. Whereas Song that shops perspective, it should be super expensive for them to ask me for that information. Because of all the red tape, it requires for them to manage it securely with privacy legislation, so they should be asking twice. Do I really need it any data collected? If we start changing the economic model than people will not be so lazy. And I. Don't mean just developers I. mean everyone everybody in the supply chain will will stop being lazy and will actually say if we don't need it done ask for. And if we don't ask for it than we don't have the obligation to protect to the full extent, their full, it's a win. Win Beautiful. You just answered my next question. He's fed testing because I was really wanting to understand hanaway slip that economic value and model now I'm not completely confident that it's going to be done with legislation. But what else? How else can you add at nothing's Iran? I? Think the only way you can do. It is by legislation by having some. Serious economic impacts. Will May Be I'm not a fan of villages lady, right? I'm not a fan of that I think we saw going into compliance mindset in I firmly believe compliance is not security. is important but not sufficient. In my mind, it's Maybe it's just making show. We have sufficient enough regulation to make it clear. What the God are all in one of the behaviors that we expect of those collecting information managing it. By the custodians that it I mean depending if you look at the terms and conditions, but the custodians, we comes a level of responsibility, and that's what legislation should make a little bit cleats. What is that level of responsibility? But then I look at things like we've got crimes deconditioning certain regulators like opera acid West on not with n whether you think during the right job or not. Do. They have enough taste. Because when someone does not apply those guardrails in the way that is expected from a societal perspective, then you should be held accountable. Bright and then the more you do that, the more they feel, the burden of responsibility whether that is financially society that lose their license or social license to operate the mold. I start asking well. It is GONNA be expensive for us to duty Susan it. We have to take a real hard look at this. In the. Changes the economics, so maybe it's not a question of saying. I need to relation in mole. This is just making sure what we've got is perpet- and then? Effectively backing it up. But you money amount is if someone. Has Breached and I did not take reasonable and sufficient measures for the information that collected the systems that were running. Then frankly you should be held accountable. And, once we start doing that, we start saying we'll the behaviors we asked you to fuller because we legislated or we set as standards. Made them and you didn't do it, and there's no excuse these days I. Think the yet to say that playoffs because we've had so many bridges reported. We haven't actually seen anything yet. I looked the quarterly report by clay, and in fact, someone from the US highlighted to this morning on link didn't said. Why do you think about this and you know at the moment? What we're saying is just a dissection of how many have reported what we haven't seen. Is that big challenge off? What happens next? If I say they're going to remediate and I say that they've committed to remain both the impact on the individual and their organisations policy standards controls. How do we know? And what if they do it again? What I want to duck, so we're going to have this kind of repaid offenders. But I. Think we just no far in Austin. Ginny and to stop getting the reveal right now. We're just saying now and it looks like Fatih. But right now we're not really unpacking. We talk to Graham clearly about British Airways. Cost of doing business, but what happens when shareholders dot saying we'll. That was a big cost of business. And we want to know why. You know what's wrong with the way that you'll managing Diana because it's impacting. Value I agree with you though that that saying taste in what we've currently got implies would be really helpful, but I just don't think that we've kind of saying that. Saying that yet, Narin I think it's a challenge so that we have in this industry because. If, he would look at I mean British. Airways is playing out now, so we'll. We'll see how far they guards in. We saying I think was the Marriott, hotels. Having similar issues being raised to full, but if you were looking back a couple of new so the target. breach end that highlighted a number of on abilities that was applicable regardless of the industry that you're in really highlights to supply chain issues. And we haven't even touched the software supply chain digital supply channels as the sleeping giant elephant in the room that nobody. Talks about or has a strong handle on and You know. There she wants to. Look at the target them. A gentleman WHO's now changed security office suffered industry I went. Call him out and he hasn't necessarily give me permission to rephrasing, but you made a really interesting point which I really do agree with. That is that if you look at the target breach and the failures along the way where they had? The heads controls in place you. You cannot question whether there was sufficient, but they had a number of controls in place where they could have reduced the impacts of said breach. I. Didn't find Severi reasons I just. Ignored them. But you look at that implications from that breaks was yes, it was highly costly. It also was when the first of the breaches that cost certain senior executives position. They also had a share price implication with quite devastating for a period of time, and yet it rebounded right. You could argue. Did they retain they full shareholder value in sufficient time? They did surfer I think it was maybe six or eight months. It was a shareholder hit on the price of targets. Being listed entity because of the full ad will of the world sold that came about in. Showed that they had lost faking executives, but then again looking back even now they've retained that value, so he would make just an economic argument around united. Should we have invested so much in cyber security should have had that capability should be on the front foot will not because we cost sometime then verse, share, price and reputation but. It stop people going to shops now. Did we retain our Earnings ratio yet. We retained it over a period of time, so we rebounded from that lesson on shore, so she had just looking at the economics. This is where I think cyber fools because. scholley economic conversation is not the right one to have because the consequences of the target sending the British Airways. around the world. Because of the nature of what they ever represent the digital bid, long tail consequences that we don't necessarily feel all of it up front so some of those direct costs we can say yeah. We're not not an apology for making the right investments or continuous investments in Cyber, pay. But the long tail off is. That information's out there. That in that system and other information is out there. What malicious persons who have fumbled creativity and Thomas to save the nine? What are they GONNA? Do with that. What is the long game they're playing? And if we're talking, nation states it's long. And I and we cannot necessarily attributed the economics of that in today's thinking. And if we think about the threat landscape, much more broadly than as immediate breaches in RPM is fantastic case, looking at information was breached to their social security numbers of a vast number of government employees in very very interesting roles. Then when we're not investing alanon protecting future generations in the right way. But not looking at businesses, future businesses in future generations if we're just having an economic argument on today's and David. Licey talked about this way into day. There'd about the long game in how all these? Small events that look small at the time it had I all common ace into capturing all this data for a long for a long game I'm GonNa jump to one of your other favorite subjects, which is out officially intelligence I know that you've Jane quite a bit of work around net. Look. Out Official intelligence I think is exciting on so many fronts. It has the potential to if applied for social good. To transform alive, whether it's the way in which we look at preventative health swear we look at lifestyle. potentially to disrupt the way even medicine, and the way in which we deal with disease and. This some exciting stuff happening even in Australia in that why we thought VFW, precision and In the sorts of companies, I'm life Phenomenal ways of applying technology to bet -ociety that human humanity. Out But like anything you can also understand that it can be used for malicious purposes which. has other applications, but we without official intelligence We get caught up in the hall Terminator Sort of perspective. Rod Official Intelligence. that. Could be a future general artificial intelligence at this stage is still saying a long long way off will we're seeing at the moment is more narrow at official intelligence, which are the application of official out official intelligence techniques and applications that are very specific. Sub. Machine lining is just an aspect of that I'm sure you've you've had other interviewees that can give you much more technical descriptions of that. And we've seen the application of various forms of official intelligence with autonomous systems like. The Tesla's trying to move up the stack there with some level of autonomy. Obviously the military. Tried various forms of that in order to protect a lot of servicemen and women out in contested environments. The challenge though with artificial intelligence is that. This is the competition you and I been having flying. Is that in order to build some of these technology? enable enablers. We're asking engineers data. Scientists effectively codify what it means to be human and to Kurt Affi- what it means to make human based decisions. At scale, and that's not a bad thing, but did not. Anthropologist not ethicists designers. And that's okay because they should be working with all of the above in making those decisions, but in actual fact without official intelligence. A lot of the more advanced forms of that team. They. Coal the adversary networks and the in deep lining. All these other things that are show you hadn't your talk is that it's holding up a mirror to what society is today and how they behave how we think. What we consider to be. polite society civil society or not. And Wall these things have always been discussions and always been thought through with. Psychologists apologists. Sociologist, We've never really set down in codified them so now what we're asking is the hold up a mirror and put that down on paper and make those automated decisions. And in a future, where computational literacy in sorts of creativity skills are going to be super important. If. We gave a the right to start at what point? Does the human. Still stay in the loop. At what point does it? Does it mean to be human and the the sort of points? Coming up very much in a military context as you would win, you talking about autonomous weapons, things like that. Some of the things that grappling make absolute sense in other aspect of industries, which was one of the things I find fascinating. Is that if you give a do they make. Old Decisions did I make the decisions to kill them. Make the decisions to. New Left kill the old woman on the ride. The trolley compensation when you talk about autonomous systems. And a few do give them the in what is to insurance. What does that digital ability Can you say that because it had intense? which is not what we had full that? It's K and you're off the hook. then. What does that do to morality? What is so all of these really existential questions? Are. which may not have been answered in full? We now need to be making much stronger decisions about that because we're about to put them in software. Back to make those programmable. and. Sorry, you start asking the questions of which a number of institutes here in a broad Arrow pointed to some of those. If you're interested, but you start asking, what does it mean to be ethical? A These a programmable decisions than I want them to be transparent, and there are cases where some of this I ought. Technology used to make criminal justice system responses, making decisions about who gets hired or who gets doesn't this to me Nevada stuff happening in Stralia as well with Gordon? and. or at least gotten wrong to the extent that was expected as an outcome and the first question you ask is will show me how you've made that decision and today. We can do that because we can explain it, but when you when you asking official intelligence by systems to make that. Very Apac it's very blackbox so unless you have a PhD To unpack some of these algorithms. How are you GonNa Nar that? The decision they made was made reasonably. and that you willing to live with that decision, and then you ask the questions about well, if they made that decision, and it was different to the way I would have made it. Does that make it right or wrong? Answer are one of the interesting things that happened. If think about two years ago is I, think it was a couple of Google scholars was faithful. That to appoint this transparency in Tokyo Responsible I I like to call over Europe. The European Union came out with. What they called transparent, a or ethical principles electrical it responsible ai, because it's a lot broader. It's about trust. Ethics it's about transparency, but it's also about security and privacy, and if you ask the questions, but two years ago. Sorry, my point was facebook Google. They pitted at a couple of algorithms together. And at that point, it was just normal run-of-the-mill. You kinda learn these hobbies algorithm. Start Learning. What was transformative in what they stopped the program. was when the I created something. A new language and this is where scary because up until that point, the idea about what set us apart from algorithms is the fact that way the creative bunch, and suddenly you have the algorithms creating eating all my God. This is what is not the that horrible Tom Cruise movie. Sorry I'm not a fan. Mission impossible, it's like mission impossible sort of wild way you sort of saying. Wait, a creative bunch, and you guys just do what your program to Ns. Suddenly you've you insights to the table by. You've created something wow. This is something that we end something that we can't. Even acids human understand, which is even a worthwhile. Now. That's the negative side. The plus side is you need a lot of that, and that becomes really interesting when you start thinking about the adverse aerial stuff that happens in cyber in how you need that to be able to survived. Thinking sorry. It's kind of like a bit, chicken and egg. Again it's creating Thinking about what creating, so we need to stop and think, but you can't stop thinking not build. So how do we do that in parallel? And that's one of the reasons why I love some of the perch Europe had with the responsible. I principles with a came out and. Questioning is of Principles, they're around Machines in. The robotics which turning on its head, but Australia's got a number of institutes where the stunning to think about I that was a discussion paper, which closed in May, really studying government at the last federal budgets. Put some money into saying will actually when you the framework. Which is all great? Every country's coming out with frameworks I forget China's. Strategy around I. They're going to make that. And I've got critical mass, not allow. US, they cultural approach to get it. Know this this all of this happening around the world I think the interesting question is that I think we've come to a point in history where as a society, we cannot solve these problems solely as a nation, we need to solve this as a globe, so it comes to call into question all of these international organizations. They need to step up and truly shy collaboration because A. I N. responsible, a I does not happen just in America and expect the rest of the world to follow. You've got to work at it as as massive weld. little countries can do that little thing, but ultimately you WANNA. Do this properly. You WanNa? Do the safety and. Get the real value of ai you need to work at a global level and have almost like what they call like. The Geneva Convention was just about to say that does seem to me that you know the the simple simplistic answer is we need a GIN winded? Geneva Convention to Cava some the ethics, and whether this is good for society now. I know that as multi dimensional societies, we have different values, but we can at least agree on some guiding principles that help us navigate. This is royal. Look. This is just been an absolutely fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for your time and we'll look forward to talking to you another time. Awesome. Thanks for having me. Beverly. EMOJI. That has the mind blown emoji. That's how I'm feeling right now about that chat. Who Fascinating I. Think listening to it. Might have been easier than doing yoga. Is. Probably one of the most difficult chats I've had because you know it's not an area that I'm super comfortable with yes, and there was just sorry. March to share. It was really the McDonald's of chat. Stay all you can A. Everything stuffed into that conversation. I wanted to think we could have kicked going. But I'm one of the things I just wanted to add that. We actually didn't get a chance to ask yellow how to follow her. So for those of you that are on twitter. Daniele is at Daniele. To Els and that's under school. T zero five so Daniele underscore, t zero five. So if you want to follow on twitter, you'll find it then, and of course they will, because she has so many interesting things to talk about but I said the thing that kind of jumped out at made many things, but that conversation pop way you talked about. Changing the economic tally of collecting data. And that consumer viewpoint, and how you make it costly to collect data. That really isn't actually needed. And I would love to see this happen because I have a very recent example. I was trying to sign up to a Webinar I couldn't join the live version of it was on cyber awareness and. In order to access the recording I had to give so much data. Away and in particular. The phone number was really I had a real gripe about it because. There was. See. Take place that said I didn't want to be contacted yet. They still insisted that to get past to click through pasta foam had to find out about not tried all the tricks. I tried just entering the Zeros I tried all these different things wildcard. Now, they wanted to shut him up phone number for me that they were never going to use. And that to me is just frustrating as I consume so I. I think that was a really important point of that need to change the economic value around collecting on naked dight care. Look off found this with loyalty cards. I don't have any. And you know the realities I say to those organizations that I'm shopping from Is You. Know that I'm a little customer. You know my name. You can say how much I spent you. Why don't you just give me the loyalty discount? Anyway? No is the response you. They really feels about it. You want sign up Tony. Loyalty plan when giving you a discount, so you know what I'm be doing I'll be voting with my face, and this is what we need to do. We need to be able to say no. I'm not signing up to that and I'll go somewhere else. The other bit I think that positive role I can play, and just you know we. We're already seeing it today in Cyber Security, so there was some Cap Gemini Research. We'll put the link in the show notes. It was called reinventing cybersecurity with ion. That was published this year, and it was a survey of eight hundred fifty senior execs in one of the things they said was around sixty four percent of them, said I was decreasing the costs to detect and respond to breaches for them, so there's a real positive manageable benefit that artificial intelligence has today, and of course will have hopefully in the future up year old at wonderful a on. Aggregation it's working. It seems to be working really well, and you know there's Tech Victor coming out foster instead of having to. Manually through the Moron exactly. Amnuay cybercriminals automaking advantage. Of these tools as well, and I was reading an example that. Criminals successfully using algorithms. To Send tweets spearfishing tweets, and it's allowing them to do that. Six Times faster than a human could with twice the success. So that's the other element we had bring into the conversation about how cybercriminals all using. So with the proliferation of I and Europe product developer. What's your thoughts about old as competitive pressures? They're going to be cutting corners. What what are your thoughts about? Where we are today is security is still on. Gosh could get this. said fide that it's compliance before launch to my customink's so not being built from the ground up, and that's that's clearly why we need need to get to. We've with products, but of course as we know, there's that competitive pressure. To to get products out the door and I think that the risky is that we're going to say them compromise on standards, which consequently leads us to the ethics discussion around or I and just getting these guardrails in place and. you know. We know that there's some good want papers. We know that there's an summating standards you know. We've got them inside the Security I. Twenty seven thousand wanted to. We need to stop really saying defect. Our standards around the ethics a little bit controversial way as cybersecurity professionals should sign an ethics agreement. What do you think? ABC, developed. And, that's about all we've got time for today, so thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this cybersecurity cafe podcasts be sure to subscribe for future episodes, and for more information visit, slobby security cafe dot, com year and find us on twitter at Cyber Sec cafe.