20 Episode results for "University of Canterbury"

Gaming's potential gazillions

RNZ: The Detail

19:29 min | 2 years ago

Gaming's potential gazillions

"And. Yada. I'm Alex Ashton. And this is the detail today. The government's giving a Christ Church gaming three million dollars to bring experts from overseas to help students build games. We ask why and look at the record breaking rise of New Zealand's gaming industry. Think gaming. And what comes to mind some of the research around this internationally suggests that somewhere between two and five percent of young people. A gaming in ways that could be considered addictive. One young woman in the states found a dead body, while she was hunting for Pok Mon down by a river. And given the following mini games, get maybe no surprise that. There's a lot of money in making them. Stephen nightly is with the New Zealand game developers association sermon, the space of the last six eight years, the New Zealand games industry have grown from about five million dollars with revenue to one hundred forty five million dollars five to one hundred and forty and how many is in about seven years. We've had forty six percent compound annual growth over six years, which pretty much makes it the fastest growing creative industries, eland and even the fastest growing tick, and distri and New Zealand, and employs about five hundred people and full-time jobs just purely making entertainment related games. Lear alone, all the app, developers virtual reality simulation, developers who are going to spun off from the industry. So one of the differences between say games and film, which we compared to a lot is that a lot of film, productions are projects on for few months, and offer a few maps, whereas most of the games, they created a New Zealand, they're owned by New Zealanders zoned owned owned. And so we are in control of our own destiny. We own the companies we own the intellectual property, and so the projects into ongoing, you talked about being competed to the film industry a lot. How does the gaming industry compared to other sectors so globally? The games industry is with about two hundred billion dollars right now. So that's actually quite a lot larger than the film box office, quite a lot larger than box office, plus all the secondary revenue streams like selling toys, and the like, and it's larger than the music industry and even New Zealand. The New Zealand games industry with had about one hundred and fifty particularly comes to exports as lodge music industry and large there. Now, domestic film industry think people realize how big the industry is. And how lucrative the industry is I think the games industry industries in a fly spending the writer, and it's because about ninety five percent of what we make exported, and that's the nature of, of a digital industry. It's global from day one so very few people would be up to name New Zealand made game. But I want to. This people overseas who do people overseas playing games based on wis coastal beaches like pizza playing games. Okay. As of them that New Zealand is just not be aware of. So I'll strength is that we so global so expedited, and that leads to a lower profile at home. What is some of the berry is that the industries faced to grow? So the industry's got a lot going for it the universities and the training institutions have really stepped up. So we're producing graduates who have both technical skills and creative skills in the same package. And we've got this two hundred billion dollar global market to go for. And once you make a successful game you can get sustainable quite quickly. If you get a fan base going, you can get that ridge cash flow of income coming in pretty quickly, once you successful. So the gap as having a good what we call a beta product spos- were or initial launch product, and I suppose the, the barrier for what makes a quality product. On launch keeps going up. So support and funding for early stage prototypes or early stage products that you can take to market, and it's really frustrating there because we have in vistas can knock on doors and say, well, we see how big this industry is we see how high ticket as we see how digital is. But they want to see prototype. I will they want to see some evidence that you've made a game that a few thousand people really like, and so that's the gap is the funding to create the daily stacked prototype. And we'd is that funding to come from the government? Well, so industry does do fear. But we have startup program that we're about to launch for this year, the Kiwi game starter. But it's like thirty thousand dollars which is, you know, the price of three music, videos, not quite the price of, of a fully functioning video game. But we do have government programs whose intention is to grow the screen industry to grow exports and to grow high tick intellectual property, so gaming all those three boxes really loud and clearly. But unfortunately, because with a hybrid is three things we don't fall inside the criteria for any one of those three things, so we kinda full frustratingly between the gaps. And we get bits of support and lots of goodwill from government, but I think there is a role for the early stage funding to come from government, which would get us in front of those vistas and sit the industry onto path. Do you feel that the editor from the government is, is changing towards the industry? We likely to see more funding specifically towards the gaming industry where we are hopeful that the government is going to pay attention to the gaming industry. Many ministers have visited game studios and seen us an action. But when I think people don't appreciate as just the scale of the opportunity, so while we may already be larger and exports. The music industry, mini other critic, does whistle tiny we underperforming where we are not achieving potential, so we have zero point eight percent global market. Here. If the games industry, New Zealand heads one more one extra significant say one percent marketshare that's two hundred and fifty million dollars worth of exports. So how big could the industry, get say five teen twentieth on? So one of the goals that the New Zealand game developers association has sit as that New Zealand could be a one billion dollar exporter of interactive content in only five years time, so that would make some to what visual fix industry. New Zealand is now they do about last year that about eight hundred and ninety million with exports, and that's actually quite achievable. And so, I think what people file to appreciate about games or what they vowed to appreciate about creative properties about creative, intellectual properties. We've it's music or film or books. These things scale, you spend a fixed amount of money producing them. And then if you have a hit if you have a head by golly, those prophets of their, we call it creative intellectual property. But that's the same as Peyton tes. If you're talking to a scientist they really valuable. And those are the this is the path to creatives in New Zealand, having sustainable, incomes, and having well, paying Korea's, there was some publicity this week, Seve most artists struggle to make a living will one of the solutions is how do we create more productions? That go global that earn intellectual property that those royalties. So the games industry employs heaps of illustrators heaps of animators hates him, musicians writers voice actors at some not all coders sitting in a in a room for every technical job and the games industry, one point four creative jobs, get created. I think what people file to realize the potential for the entire creative industry to really contribute to New Zealand's economy. When you talk about gaming is traditionally, image that comes up, right? Says mission and it's the dog room to video games. Is that stigma of fixing the growth of the industry, and is it changing? So the route stereotypes about gaming but they're certainly not holding back to grow for the industry. The industry globally is growing. Still nine percent a year in New Zealand, New Zealanders spending on gaming grew twenty something percent last year to over half a billion dollars. And the one of the poet, these half of gaming news come from mobile games. So the target audience via mobile game isn't someone hiding in a darkened room. It's, it's a mom. It's, it's mums waiting to pick up the kids before school. It's people commuting on buses and in New Zealand forty seven percent of the people who play games are female and the average age of someone who plays a game is thirty four years old. These things have been living rooms as communal family activities for twenty or thirty years now. So the stereotype of gaming is there. That look I can tell you as someone in the industry is not necessary. We make our money from we make money from an incredibly diverse range of different niches, which is also great because it makes his room for regional games gaming was owning about making night clones at a pretty boring industry to be Pat off. The government wants the information and communications technology Sikder to be the seecond biggest contributor to GDP by twenty twenty five and clear Curren, who's the minister for digital media has that the government's going to need to help smaller studios get off the ground that's going to happen as you just heard Stephen say, though, the industry isn't seeing that happen on the scale at needs. There is some investment happening a couple of weeks ago. The government gave lead which runs out of the university of Canterbury, three million dollars, the university itself, fronted, another full point five million, it really is a huge investment. And it's a huge deal for us here. Rogue Lindemann is the director of the lab, and you see professor. So this game from the tertiary education commission is set up to bring in people from outside of New Zealand who are world leaders in their research field, but also have an entrepreneurial bent. So we put together a bid arou-. Round applied immersive gaming, which is using gaming technologies and immersive technologies to help people again, better trained for something or to use an exposure therapy for phobia, treatment and really to help engage with local industry. Help students who are really interested in taking. Let's say a student project that they've developed that maybe have some legs, and to potentially start a company or work with an Zealand company to turn that idea or prototype into product. Let sort of students do you get? So it's very good question, we're primarily postgraduate lab at the lab. So we have one year, master's program and three year, PHD program and for some reason, Kiwis don't seem really Cain to do postgraduate degrees. So all, but one of our students is is an international student. So the laboratory as an unbelievably strong reputation internationally. Early. But I believe that most technology related or interested students. Get snapped up by industry right out of the bachelor's degree. So they don't end up staying to postgraduate work. So that must speak to a huge demand for these graduates. If being snapped up that quickly. Yeah. So the tech sector never slowed down in terms of needing more people to work there. So definitely is a good choice for a student to go into tech related profession when it come to Uni so it, you see year and a half ago, we started the first bachelor's degree in, in game design in New Zealand. And the idea is to attract students who are interested in both the technical side, and the technical fields such as computer science, but also interested in the creative technologies such just game development, especially computer graphics, and to within the college of engineering, gives them kind of another pathway that allows them to combine both their creative artistic skills. With their technical desires. Yeah. And when you do speak to my nephew and thinking of game designer comes up a lotta job that people want to do, but do you think the is a sedan stigma around not being, quote unquote real job. I think it probably goes even deeper than that. So I'm originally from America, and I would say fifteen years ago, so in about two thousand five in the US there started to be this notion of games degrees being offered at university. And there was a lot of pushback. Oh, it's not a real thing. Like, oh, my kid's gonna go to university and gonna play games the whole time. They're at Uni my answer to that is, well, your kid is probably gonna go and play games at union anyway. But what the difference is actually be building these kinds of games. So there was definitely a stigmatism in the US. But today there's more than five hundred games programs at different universities in America and New Zealand is still at the beginning of this conversation around game development. Game design is a first class. Disciplined to look at the heavy lifting in New Zealand is the same thing that we had to do in the US, which is educate people that the general public around the usefulness of game, design not just for making entertainment games, but for really trying to encourage people as funding will help us to, to use game like techniques to have people spend more time on tasks that would otherwise maybe boring and on that note into people like modern Neo Neil, I'm the managing director found the media interactive. So we designed games across multiple platforms and multiple donors is how'd you get into this as Christian? Well and around, I'm conventional. Why supplies? I have always had an interest in playing games from young age. We didn't have a games console on our Tari at harm in my game playing experiences were and takeaway shop playing spicy. I guess getting into the industry. It sounds didn't hit them until many lighter. So I left school I which for about fourteen years, and the whole telecom industry and decided one day I was started games company. So, like tell stories the gaming platform. We do you see the industry going, you've done some amazing around today? Oh into health, what sort of, of applications. Could we see in the gaming CTA? When I think is the gaming industry grows games there for entertainment purposes. Happiness entertainment, coop asus. I've many, many years and its technology grows and type homes expand so into my ball and, and snot fines with stunning to say a bake increase, and I guess they call them series games, but more about games that have a learning object of or meaningful experience. So that's where we started developing sparks game in two thousand I and that was really a game to teach young people how to deal with their mouth depression. So it's the state of tolls within the gaming environment. Based on cognitive behavioral therapy. Thanks. I've been the so long fuller me, I'll show you the way was that the bird of hug. We thought it was less good track. Good things. It's a great song that we could be on the way to getting rid of the Sloan, and why it was developed as the game is because it's we're young people are and they enjoy playing, and then threatening through like iming environments, I had make seems to target the teenagers who this game four on a platform where they are in terms of getting into this as a career is still a stigma at all around wanting to, you know, get into making games. I think there is still a little there. You know, a lot of people don't know what they got ni-. And like you said, if you say you'll children playing games in whether it's my ball game on the PlayStation or whatever is just say. Being by parents is maybe a bit of time my STA, but really, it's an activity that a lot of people do when people think about game development is a career. I guess, they don't say the other side of games, then you see the final product I games development team requires, you know, hope bunch of dives, people who do whole bunch of different thing from coaches to atas to sound engineers to juices to project, manages, the storytellers story says there's quite a few career options. The end I think when people realize that it's not just the in product that saying about walk is behind the developmental product, and I will say that they're potentially as a career option out for themselves for the children. So the position of the industry is changing and the money starting to trickle in UC's role blend. And again, I teach into the first course the introductory paper and we have sixty students in the class. Only only thirty some of them are actual game design majors. But they're thirty others. Who are also taking the course. So it shows that there's definitely breath to the field and the topics that recovering job prospects. Look pretty good for them. Yeah. So that's always a question. So I would say that good students will always find good jobs and the other very interesting thing about the games industry is, it's not really a credentials based industry, so you don't have to have a certain degree to get a job in the games industry. It sounds really strange coming from an economic who who teaches into a games program. But what you really need is you need to be able to show that you can like your portfolio is very important. So you need to be able to show that you can do the stuff that you've learned what the degree allows us to do is to help guide the students into Bella developing their skills, and their portfolio to then go ahead and apply for these positions. Because we've also heard from the New Zealand games industry, one of the biggest pain points that they have is a lack of qualified people that they can hire really enough end up going abroad to try and hire. And again, that's has its own problems. Why go abroad when we can grow our own talent locally, that's the detail today? I'm alex. The detail is brought to you by newsroom dot co dot indeed made possible by the are ended in zero Neha innovation fund, the subscribe button to stay across the detail everyday and your own EPO plays later writing as it helps other listeners find us. And of course, we're on Facebook and Twitter to this episode was engineered by poet and produced by Lexi. Russell Monday wa.

New Zealand government New Zealand Stephen US New Zealanders Alex Ashton Zealand America Lear managing director university of Canterbury writer union wa college of engineering
11-14-19 Maori connection with Native American knowledge

Native America Calling

59:00 min | 1 year ago

11-14-19 Maori connection with Native American knowledge

"Welcome Welcome to native America calling from Studio Forty. Nine Albuquerque's I'm Tara. Gatewood colonization changed indigenous ways of leading and and governing in the report on native leadership. The First Nations Development Institute says indigenous leadership shifted from a basis in community wellness led by cultural knowledge and spirituality to a hierarchy. Coming up. We'll hear from mountain passes visiting from New Zealand who are learning about implementing Monday indigenous ways of leadership. We go live right after the news This is national native news. I mean Antonio Gonzalez. The eastern Shoshoni tribe is looking into taking over management of Tribal Health Clinic Doc. Wyoming public radio's Savannah Mar reports. The tribe has a treaty right to government provided healthcare but eastern Shoshoni leaders say federally operated clinic in Fort Wash. AQUI isn't meeting. The community's needs so the tribe is considering contracting with the Indian Health Service to manage the clinic and its funding themselves eastern eastern Shoshoni Business Councilwoman Karen. Snyder says she and the rest of the council know their community better than the feds and they have more bandwidth to deal with problems like high staff turnover at the clinic. I believe the lash check at the fort. Wash key clinic there were twenty six vacancies and that's an astounding number when you look at empty seats. In people people not performing their duties the tribal have to apply for a self-determination contract through the Indian health. Service for now. Snyder says the council is taking a hard look get weather. That's the best course of action. You hear a lot of pros and cons and Indian country with tricks that have been very successful and other tribes that have had failures so what this period of time does is gives us an opportunity to really look in the details and actually see if the tribe is ready to take that on. I'm Steve Anamar. Standing Rock Sioux tribal representatives resentatives urged against the expansion of the Dakota access pipeline Wednesday. The tribe shared concerns with the North Dakota Public Service Commission at a hearing as regulators consider permits energy transfers seeking to increase the capacity of oil flow from five hundred and seventy thousand barrels per day to more than a million the tribes tribes concerned it increases the risk of an oil spill and threatens the environment. The Bismarck Tribune reports the hearing lasted more than ten hours and drew hundreds of people. Tom Including tribal members environmentalists and Oil Supporters Company officials say doubling the oil pumped in the Dakota access pipeline does not increase risk of spill the more than one thousand mile pipeline carries oil from North Dakota to Illinois. It's been more than three years since young people ran from standing rock to Washington. DC In an effort to halt construction of the Dakota access pipeline which started an opposition movement people flocked to North Dakota and camped out during construction of the project to oppose the pipeline which led to clashes with law enforcement and arrests welling crews on Alaska's north slope have not had much success this season. The marine mammals are not showing up where they normally do making it hard for hunters to find them as Shady Grove Oliver reports wailers in the Arctic. Dick town of Yoga. They haven't caught a single bowhead whale so far. This season usually by this time cruiser packing away pounds of meat and Muqtada for winter. But not this this year and that's a big deal for people here who rely on it as a staple food source. Typically bowheads migrate from Canada to the Russian coast starting in late summer and crews time there hunts to the bow heads passage with more than six weeks gone and less than a week left to hunt. The whales are nowhere to be found. Scientists who monitor the whales deals with aerial surveys. Say they seemed on track in July and August than in September. Something changed the area near the coastline where the whales usually travel in large numbers numbers are sparse. Researchers wailers think it's possible the bowheads are migrating further north through deeper waters. But so far. No one has been able to tell for sure what's going on that. Uncertainty has left whalers in a tough spot. Some crews have racked up more than a thousand miles looking for them by boat. Money for gas and food. You'd time away from jobs and family are adding up and winter is on. Its way next week the Sun will set here for the last time until twenty twenty and when that happens since crews will have to put away their boats with or without a catch. I'm Shady Grove Oliver and Dame Antonio Gonzales. The National Native News is produced by Broadcast Corporation with funding by the corporation for Public Broadcasting Support by vision maker media envisioning a world changed and healed by understanding native stories and the public conversations stations. They generate end. Scott Mommy words from bear airs on American Masters November Eighteenth More Info at vision maker Media Dot Org support by be NSF railway moving our economy for over one hundred sixty five years our vision to operate injury accident free with safety programs Rams Training and technology more at Bien SF dot com slash tribal relations native voice one the native American radio network. This is native America calling. I'm Tara Gate. Would what does this indigenous leadership mean to you. That's a question students. From the University of Canterbury Modi and indigenous leadership. Master's degree program are focusing. dissing on in a partnership with Americans for Indian Opportunity there touring New Mexico to learn from tribal leaders and community members about navigating Western modes of leadership with their indigenous cultural values. There are a couple of them here in studio with us today. You'll get a chance to meet them here in just a moment but what would you like to tell them about what it means to be a tribal leader. What about just that word leadership in her communities how we define find it how we set the parameters or maybe how we don't set parameters You can give us a call. Share your thoughts and Maybe there's somebody you are mentoring taurine in your own community to be leader To make sure that the understand things that are important and necessary as well as values tell us how important our values to leadership and when you have a foundation based on tribal values. What is a community look like? What is the potential? All of that. We'd like you to comment on his well by giving us a ring. One eight hundred nine six two eight four eight is number with forward to your questions and of course your comments we are live so go ahead and dial in now. If you'd like to and right now we're GONNA go hidden. Meet the two gentlemen who are here in studio forty nine with us today To my Aleph we have J. Wilson. He is the president of the Mahdi Party and a program leader for the masters in Maui an indigenous leadership program at the University of of Canterbury in New Zealand. He is the chairman of the NATTA nutty wrong and also Phangan new He's also a part of that community. Chaim my pleasure to have you here in feel free to further introduce yourself and say hello to the folks do not quite innocuous talk a tour everyday might cut. We might not kill. It's great to be here Tara. Really good to be here and as I said in my language. Greetings to you all listening. And I'm I'm at the Senate from the mountains to the sea and great to be today. Well am can't wait to hear what you're going to be telling us about leadership and just I what communities in in your area are thinking about all this and why we have to think about it what we have to talk about it. Thank you for being here. Also also here in Studio forty-nine is William Grant. He is a director of the masters in Mody an indigenous leadership program at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand. And he is Netanyahu taboo and nutty. Porto thank you for joining us today. William and feel free to further introduce yourself as well ten Kyoto talk and no humidity pro Tanto Koto Tina quarter guttural. Well let's get started leadership leadership. What does that really mean Jane? Let's start with you It's a funny weird because there are connotations that you have to be standing adding up in front of your body to be leader burs and Al Culture Leadership comes from many directions and often from the back and say it's about US relearning and remembering remembering to remember the well-known elder from connected to the University of Canterbury Entry City bonaire Egan. He often says it's important for us to remember to remember and as we start to remember. It's about identifying. What with a key signs of recognize leadership from the people? And how did they recognize those people with they win the front with their in the back. Because is a proverb that says non Moody Yamaha without the Front. There is no big without the back. There is the front and so ensuring that there's a connect between the different parts that make up a community and it's interesting you say that and and I've heard people here in the states to talking a little bit about that that we are so far removed from so many things that were even removed from supporting a leader. So talk to me a little bit about that dynamic to where people for whatever reason have lost faith in leadership or don't see the value in it and that in turn creates havoc. Go ahead well. What happened in the case of America? Five Hundred Years and Al Case Two hundred years is that we have been taught to hate ourselves. We've been taught to believe that we are ugly that we are no good and what we're trying to do is actually say we were here for hundreds and thousand years and We survived survived well and when the Europeans arrived in our country They had to create a war to penetrate our economy. And that's the anyway they were able to succeed and say remembering the greatness of our ancestors remembering that our playground was one third of the globe lab. We didn't arrive by accident and now islands there were deliberate navigations and remembering that to help us fall in love with who we are because as we do that then we can start to unpack the brilliance. There is what I call to Pomona to the knowledge to Pinellas awesome and sister was them that can guide us today and tomorrow as well in speaking of that too you know these dialogues. That we do have are these dialogues. That are missing in a lot of times. We don't hear a lot of people talking about. What can I do to help my leader because I understand how heavy that role is but instead it turns into this nitpicking or jealousy That people have and then it's kind of risk going to watch this person over here. They should fix everything they're not doing. You know being really critical of those things and people aren't supporting you and are basically I'm watching from the sidelines. Kinda like they're watching a movie and not being involved. Tell me about that. You say the most important thing is giving everybody a job. I we have a structure called the Marai in the Mariah village and everybody has a job and everybody is expected to contribute the the challenges the Switzerland Society we live in as all about me myself and I and we are encouraged to be selfish rather than soothing. Each other to provide and help each other. And so it's relearning the whole concept that there's enough for everybody and if we can learn relearn that concept concept that will help us to move from the cooking and go to a space where we can start to suv each other again and a key. Part of that is the mind retraining the mind and almost brainwashing keen to say. This is how we should be doing things in I. I look at the author of allegiance and all of that and I was raised Catholic in the creed. When you say those things out loud but you say them in your own language which and you say look? You are in context in the blanket of snow. I am the glistening scale of the Great Fish which is the Almond L. Mountain. You say all of those things out loud and both Marie language and English because not many of us speak Mari that that starts to change things and my own trump. We've been doing that since two thousand and eight and since then we've never had an argument and we voted once. Well what do you think of that folks. What if something like that was existing in your own tribal community call in share your thoughts one eight hundred nine six two eight four eight is a number and what do you think about anything? You just heard about supporting leadership Any thoughts on that and then when we get to the point where we say okay we are are putting you in a leadership position we see you as a leader. What are the obligations and responsibilities that come with that from our own indigenous contexts? Go ahead share your thoughts. Were waiting to hear from you. Were excited to hear what you're thinking to one. Eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight is the number to join us and we look forward word to your call. And so william any thoughts about this either side what it means to be a leader What it means to be a supportive community to help your leader succeed yet? So I think the The notion of leadership that has been in terms of knowledge it's now has come to represent a particular thing hierarchy for example and it doesn't necessarily have to mean that Leadership leadership can now be reclaimed by different communities and rewritten in a way that represents how they those communities wished to have the leadership and it doesn't necessarily need to be someone at the front someone at the top everyone has it needs to recognize that everyone has something to offer their multiple multiple fest. Faucets fetes to leadership. There are those that have the heads in the clouds. For example who can think big thoughts who can think in a way that other people might not be able to think but they might not have the practical leadership in order to make the clouds rain for example and so there are those people who can bring those the precipitation down to the ground and make it a reality But it requires I community in order in order to lead and to move forward and so I think of leadership it often takes me two conversations or thoughts about about parent parenting or parenthood. Nobody hands you a manual and if they do be weary of it You know it there is no one way to do it. Of course of course it is about the moment in who all is involved so it's Sore Ganic The way it happens. I and much like parenting It depends on so many things that are coming into it and so when we think about creating leadership in in this modern context based on indigenous values based on indigenous knowledge. How high does that mountain become? What do you think William got about a minute before break so I think in terms of there is no menu? You did right. We need to make mistakes in order to Lin from them to move forward. It's about exploring How leadership is going to work in a particular context? I mean the the world around us is changing and we need to keep up with those changes and there isn't going to be a roadmap so it's exploring those elements of leadership this ship As a community as a people in order to find the best fit for their time in so I took a look list at the list of folks were connected connected to this project and who are here learning exploring and taking it information and I believe I'm seeing also a young Generation being woven even into it and so when we start turning to our young people and telling them let's talk leadership what happens. Tell us about it. Phone lines are open. It's the annual celebration. Rock your mocks. This week is set aside to celebrate needed. Pride by showing off your needed footwear. You're on the next native America calling. The founder of the original social media. Event joins us to talk about the idea that started eight years ago. We I hope you'll make plans to join us. Support by vision. Maker media envisioning a world changed and healed by understanding native stories and the public conversations. They generate OPPA tells the gripping but virtually unknown story of George Oppa an Alaska native dog sled racer outlet airs on Independent Lens. December number sixteenth. That's December sixteenth on independent Lens. More Information at vision maker Media Dot Org. Yeah Sir In August you're listening to native America calling I'm Tara Gatewood from Athletic Pueblo and today we are talking about native leadership. What does it mean to be a need if leader give us a call one eight hundred nine six two eight four eight you can also reach us at one? Eight hundred nine nine nate. Let's go ahead and go to our phone lines here. What people are Thinking and of course we want to know what you're thinking so dial in one eight hundred nine nine six two four eight. We're going to say hi to Melvyn in Santee. Nebraska Brask tuned in on Casey. Why K Melvin? Thanks for giving us a ring year on air yes good morning A lot of our leadership We need to focus on educating helping communities be educated on not only their treaty rights water rights and living under reservation. We have special exemptions with taxes and Things were economic development can happen and I like to see our leaders. Educate the community on how to take advantage of these Programs and avantage is that we have under reservation and especially the water rights and the treaty rights most important that people need to be educated more underwrite because I talked a lot of young people. They don't know anything about cheating. I feel bad because I like. That's my fault I didn't. I didn't do my job by telling the history of the treaty would means hopefully the ones in the future can really get our young pupil early age and teach them their two year rights water rights. And what live on reservation has advantages. Melanoma right there with you Thank you for your call. They're insanity Nebraska tuned wound in on key Z. Y. K.. One eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight is how you share your thoughts and right here in Studio forty-nine with us today is William Grant and also Chase Wilson both are connected to the masters in Maui and Indigenous Leadership Program at the University of Canterbury. My pleasure to have them here William any thoughts after hearing Melvin. Speak I absolutely. I think Education and being aware of all these different elements. This is really important. The muscles and modern fitness leadership program I think for US goes some way to addressing That we take the program it's attached to the University of Canterbury in Christchurch New Zealand But we take take the program to the communities that want us so we moved around the country And we've got a broad range of students on the program some of whom Our principals and schools teachers and so a big part of the project for the program is doing exactly that is Teaching educating our our young people about these issues that have faced because they are going to be the future leaders They're they're the ones that are going to be addressing our needs and advancing aspirations in William when we prepare our young people that way. How does the world change when they know? Oh some of those things that Melvin wish. More of our young people did knowing about treaties how to use them how to fight for them. I think there is the ability to navigate These issues when you are more aware of them the ability to leverage for example. And if you're brought up in in the knowledge You can begin to renegotiate. You'll view of the world and and it's through that renegotiation that you can come to solutions and order to Make those relevant changes and so this is a moment go ahead. Tell me about these young some people that you're quite proud of that are here learning other indigenous ways of understanding. I'm comparing them. Or maybe even saying. Hey that might work at home home absolutely. And that's a big part of the master's program each of the students on this program. They are leaders in their own right. Whatever that means to them we don't dictate to them? What what leadership is off to be? But they're all in different fields Different provisions that could be community that could be within government organizations for example And they're expected in part of the drive to do. The program is to create change to advance the expirations of those indigenous peoples within the communities And so they create projects or what. We call an change initiatives and They built these projects around a need that they have identified within the communities or organizations that the people want to see and so part but this trip to the United States is to explore alternative ways because no one way about a particular issue or project and you can come at it from multiple different angles and so by us being here we are being. We're exploring with Ow ow native brothers and sisters. This is how they are approaching similar issues in their own cultural political legal environmental contexts And and through that we're able to come up with new and improved a revolutionary changes to our own projects back home and and we also hope that we've got something to share in. What are some examples of it or maybe what one or two students are focusing on absolutely so language? Language Revitalization finalisation is a big thing for indigenous peoples and For us it is also a a really important thing. We have had on the program a student who was a teacher at a at a brand new school in in Christchurch. UCLA AND TATA APO- which is a modern learning village and what they noticed was that the language model wasn't quite fitting the needs of the students as we only had two language models available to us Back home was a an emission unit within bilingual or bilingual unit within the scope and another was a full immersion but it didn't take into consideration the different lethal of language of the students that were within the scope and so by coming coming on this trip and exploring comparative approaches to language revitalization or language within our schools. She was is able to create a model that worked on a sliding scale and so it started with majority in the native language when they're in the primary school so the early years of five years five to three Use of Sorry five to eight years of of age and then they shifted to half-and-half And from there they created a program that was relevant a to the resources that were available to the needs of the students and also they read the language model around Families Emily's because there is no revitalization and this is also within the Home Sherry you because if the language learning stops at what time do kids. Let's get out of school is it's all different times but You know if it stops there when the school bell rings and Do School Bells Entering But you know when they leave that place and if it's still going on in their home there's different things that happen where you're seeing it connect to rather than something I learn in school but when you see it happening in the home then it really becomes a part of you or a necessity It's really interesting to to understand about thanks to Any thoughts about just what it is. You feel. The doors are opening up to four this group and why you WanNa make sure that they're seeing and learning from other indigenous people Fist put just to go back. Some of our students aren't young and so some of them are grandparents current and So we'll cut the hall road range squad wonderful it's cold and what's very great because That provides a whole other experience to to join into the pot to mix it all up. I teach each other going back to. I'm your question now so I think it's easy to be narrow minded and I look at her and when you go somewhere else There's a whole trigger chased of experience. Knowledge that you can then take him and on day one when we arrive. Ta and we hit a welcoming Mama. ladonna Harris House For the for the students that were just blown away by the experience number one and then as they had conversations over a meal they're already starting to just from the conversations. I've meals rather than just guys have waiting for the full movers. Intentions and the different roles people play and their communities of different jobs that they do But also The importance of responsibility enough we can teach responsibility. Then that makes us more open to our rights because The wisden world encourages us. Go Straight to rights. And I'm that can often take you to know responsibility mm-hmm and I think The learning that we've had we ever get to the feast. Ed Hey minutes and seeing what my four hundred from each clain Don's little in all of the leaders in the house cooking preparing food for anybody. Not that walks in to the different dances to the singers in the market itself. Everything that was happening we could see so many similarities and differences or great learning. And so I think Coming to somewhere like New Mexico and next week week eight Hawaii alabi opportunities to learn and to take all these Joe's home and when you take these home how are they received You know sometimes you have to actually take people people to those different places that they can experience it and I myself One thing I really want to do is promote this opportunity. So that More tribal members can come and participate. Because it's been a to show rather than talk about about one of the great things though is I was here in two thousand and sex and and was able to share a lock that time and then a lot of unplanned into print Mayan village and and even if they come to us that helps with the experiences clearances. Well because people can then here and see a different explanation and it just opens up that world and it takes it to our own traditional sense of space and being and being present when something is unfolding and being a part of that story and and that's something. I think that we understand China's indigenous peoples around the globe and so when we start understanding each other stories or even become a part of each other stories we gain in strength in that and so Is that a root of why you're doing this work. Absolutely sheet experience. The mole we can see we Similar we are cousins. All around the world. I'm one would hope that we will be able to work together more because it's the first thing we night nicest as we're waiting at the entrance to Manila Donnas I'm and we were being welcomed and as they're preparing themselves on the host side they're all laughing and the comments they laugh like us and and the fact that the laugh was the same from deep in the stomach and You could you could tell that they were winging it. How are we going to do this? Because we all from different from different tribes all from different coaches. Now another say we're GONNA do it But laugh immediately resonated without team. Oh just like us and then we one of them came over to say hello to meet explain Blaine. They hid his say. Welcome home chain They are us well there. There's a lot of value in that and it sounds like you were properly. Welcome in When you fill safe in a space things open up that don't in other places where you affiliate to wear your guard Where you have to tear down a wall even to take one breath and that's something that leadership is also about? How do you exist in those spaces especially when people are telling you you don't belong here? You're not our kind and I WANNA I. I think that might open the door to something. You have a very important view in in Maui party and making space for that Tells a little bit about Pat. Yes so the multi party is a political party. I'm just like the Democrats and the Liberals and so What we do is as we are an independent voice where we unashamed shame ably molly whereas is there are Mardi and other political parties but they align to the philosophy of their political party before they are I am and then? They're modest sickened and so as the president of the Mari Party. It's my job to identify the right people to stand in the different electorates to hopefully represent US next year And and the twenty twenty elections back home in New Zealand. We've been the independent independent voice in Parliament for fourteen years and lost last year Last election two thousand seventeen and so. It's a big task ask. It's a big task and especially when This this election round the most Madi with EV- ahead and parliament But the challenges are starting to creep out because the having to follow the party lawn rather than being able to stand up for us as a people and so creating space is important. Because I could also see how there'd be people who say well if you're GonNa you know follow tradition and be strong. Don't participate in their government but it's important to create space. Tell me about that about a minute. Before break glare it's important to have their voice and their but more importantly to have everywhere so central government local government and in throughout our communities not just mountain communities but throughout all communities in the country to ensure that a mile away and Mati solutions can help provide answers to some of the challenges we confronting in what is an issue everywhere around the world and and I think we as indigenous people have some solutions to help us Mardi solutions real quick. What does that mean Solutions that it. Up based on Mardi philosophy where we other junior cousin to everything else in the world and therefore the importance to respect of nature respective senior cousins the animals to ensure that we can create solutions where the river has the first right put then Geno consumption then business as an example into how much of what he just said aligns with what you you were taught in your own tribal community calling right now. We want to hear from you. You can say hello to both Jay. And William her here in Studio forty-nine with us today And they are representing a group that has made their way here to part of our native nations here in New Mexico to understand in. Learn any thoughts on mattew of why community would find value in the way. You're doing your thing in your tribal community And also values what happens when those values line up. Give us a ring. One eight hundred nine nine six two eight. Four eight is the number. And what are some of the initiatives that are going went on in your own tribal community to build leadership or even supporter leaders calling now one eight hundred nine six two eight four eight support by freedom lodge providing healing for seven generations interested in learning. He'll generational trauma you can be among those who join a dynamic two hundred. Our historical trauma masterclass taught by Dr Ruby Gibson and staff beginning in May twenty twenty on the United Nation in Wisconsin for mental and behavioral health therapists and domestic and sexual abuse advocates. Registration deadline is March. Second Information and registration at Freedom Lodge Dot Org uh-huh We appreciate you tuning into native America calling today where we are talking about leadership and what values do we share When when we talk about this and what does it reveal about us when we started defining what leadership is to our communities dialing right now one eight hundred nine nine six six to eight? Four eight is the number in here in studio forty nine is a Netanyahu nutty poodle and not a poodle. A community eighty member. William Grant. Also here is chairman of the nuts and he is also Fungus Nui Chair Wilson here with us. Both of them have connections diversity of Canterbury. They're leading a leadership program That is making its way through Mexico. They're headed for Hawaii Knicks But if there's anything you want to say to them call right now. One eight hundred nine six two eight four eight is the number and earlier. We talked about You you know what is it. What does leadership mean in said There is no one manual and be weary. If there's one but you have a different take tell me more yeah I think the menu is Enshrined now Universal Law which we call Cobber Endow Coa Written an ancient incantations and those incantations teach us how to interact as people and an addition Alpa Daca L. stories teach us how to relate to each other And even him though those stories may have been created one hundred three hundred seven hundred have many years ago The important thing is tall. Identify into fly. What's the contemporary looming from the ancient philosophy and take that forward The thing that's forever changing an unwritten. Tim as the technological changes that we have to adapt to answer key component for for for for me around cower ran universal law as a the ethic of agility and Being Agile as as we navigate the river that does I'm forever changing and so we hit a story this morning about how how the grain Before the Volkan Kenyans that we just visited Ted this morning by the petroglyphs we created the river grain would continually meander and change course all the time but once volcanoes came up At Staudt was able to get that in wouldn't move past the anymore and I think that's the thing is that we have identified. How do we navigate when there is no Kenyan to stop it on a volcano volcanic activity to stop stop at inside? We continue to learn how to read. Read arm the current. Continue to read the whirlpools IDs. So that we don't get stuck in Becker 'cause we often stuck in Becua- OUGHTA and so that's a different view indeed and how do we start bringing those understandings more or when we start presenting this is where we base it in Often were met with more. That's a nice legend but this is reality. It's it's about Sharing not sharing too much but shearing enough so that it can be context utilized and to ensure that some of the codes that are hidden and those incantations as she had for us to understand not for anyone else to understand but for us to understand understand. So there is we navigate things we might change our governance styles. Because I know in modern culture. We talk about. We talk about indigenous governance. But I think it's a letter of wisden governance with Mari names and we are still learning learning how to be more indigenous and governance and I think the only way to learn that as by looking into the wisdom of L. N. N. sisters to form a different path. One of the challenges when you sit with with your government as you see to with What the legislation of the lane and that legislation at the moment is pretty white and and so we have to? We have to navigate that but at the same time stock to mull something else. And that's why we've leave moved in a tribe to ensure that all decisions unless there's a massive disagreement there is no vote. There's always consensus and I think about five times head to take it to the next meeting. And so we've got to just relearn go back to the incantations Santosh identify. What are they teaching us? How can we use it today? Well and it sounds like it's also about how can we be good relatives and carry. Are you on what was given to us again. Does that sound familiar. Share your thoughts today. One eight hundred nine nine six two four eight. Let's go ahead and take a call. We're going to hear from Steve in Cortez. Colorado tuned in on case. GD Steve Thanks for ringing in. Go ahead you're on air. Thank you good day to everybody could date your guest speakers earlier in your Would you like to see in. The tribal leaders is You know person that has addition vision for themselves as well But the vision for the community for their tribe as well as You know the don't give up attitude and The willpower that we can feel from that individual. You know the Ken I will. I will do the best that they have experience in and walk around around like they're you know they're they are a a confident self-confident number one person type deal and that can also tell you that you are number one person as as well and if that goes around community I believe you know everybody would be walking around with with Positive number one type mentality Every warcry believe if history has their own warcry every tribe you know and it can be a positive strong you know in their language to be charged move. Let's go down go hard you know and And always have the worst of the Olsen volve God in any decisions making or or just just under you know 'cause I think without him the holy the guy there you know we we. We feel powerless and And that's so you know that's motivation nations as you know big time and then Also wanted to add in is a big thing some from big thinkers and You know no one can can. If you can't lead you know no one can Follow a failure and no one remembers a quitter and leadership. I think believed starts at home. You know that's it's all I want to add in you know to to the radio station and hopefully you know it's it's it's what you know. Our young kids are looking forward to and young kids are are needing to hear and see as well as You know hearing it from somewhere else on television or something to you know so to speak. So that's all I wanted to add and wanted to say to the Gentlemen there you know safe travels and hope you guys take something from the Great South West but also leave something for the great southwest as well and that can just be knowledge and and Words of wisdom. Thank you Steve. Gray to hear from me William Anything you want to tell Steve. I absolutely agree with a lot of what you're saying. I'm vision vision of self community and don't give up one of our mottoes. Four at the University of Calgary within the school full of mighty and indigenous studies is to create leaders with courage courage of hot to create the change that is required within communities And and it requires a sympathetic ear listening to community and again that starts within the home that starts with a new communities So awesome thank you for your your comments all right. Your comments are welcome to at one. Eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight. And so William. What about taking this to to the next level When you start getting kind of this turning and you have these ideas flowing these possibilities growing along with them Kim taking it to that next level in? I think this is part of that next level of having this connection between Moldy communities and those here in the states in taking it to the next level Go ahead any thoughts about more plans. I don't think we can make change alone We need support. We need others. We need strong networks and so a big part of this program Within our own communities back home and also abroad is to create strong network communities of indigenous leaders and and so the trip to the United States is is not just about experiencing but it is also about learning and creating context with like minded individuals and groups to create relevant opportunities And what would love to do is to create that opportunity for more. Oh people what it might look like. And so we've been working closely with a Americans for opportunity to explore the possibility ability of creating an internationalized. Program that is similar to our masters and modern indigenous leadership but it's more relevant who The the worldwide community of indigenous peoples And I think a big element of that is creating networks that transcend the boundaries that have been put in place the berries that have been put in place for us and creating opportunities a -tunities For people to grow and grow within the communities and and yeah and I also like to note that with such a program mm-hmm you wouldn't necessarily need an undergraduate degree. We recognize this your decree your life experience contributions to communities to your people and we hope to create a program that recognizes all of that and more and you come out of that program Having given benefit benefit to not only your own community but the international community of indigenous peoples with a Master's degree in so folks are interested in just hearing more about any of this. Where do they go? Absolutely Americans for Indian opportunity would love to hear from you. I'm sure about this opportunity Ah Outta he is my department at the University of Canterbury. We'd love to hear from you out email is we're on the Internet if you just type in University of Canterbury Modern Indigenous Leadership Palm. You'll be sure to find us there. And so William Medina ask earlier but what do you you care about any of this. Why do I care about any of this? So colonization it has affected us all And for me it was about contributing in a way that I was able to To I don't have all the skills but I have got some skills That I am able to contribute to the greater whole. I'm not a leader from the front. I see my role. Oh as uplifting the people to be able to do the best they can And that is what I've you my leadership role. As being my grandmother the was simply from home at a young age and she lost her culture. She lost language and she felt a strong sense of shame. Although she ahead well I grew up with my grandmother I lived with. I could see it. And so I've made it my mission to reclaim claim for her. For who people what what was denied Tua. And it only takes a generation to lose a language it takes three to reclaim that language. What's her name a who name was Rosemary Rosemary? Yes and so for you William the work that we're doing I can see why it's important and you just explained that Any words of encouragement to those who are trying to do something similar or who are wishing for something something like this to even brush into their community any words go out there and grab it and sometimes you have to be an as I said earlier. Courageous courageous of hot hot. Step up step forward and just grab it. It was scary for me coming from a world that I had grown up in a very different different willed to reclaiming my booth right And I think it's you find people and you start seeing connections things and lived experiences that similar to your own so you just don't be afraid. Great words in for you anything you WANNA share with our audience. I joined this program contract to the university and I joined this program because I saw it as an opportunity to continue to she it to Pinellas them. mm-hmm ancestry was the And counter that with all of the academic writing But what I've learnt. This is by fishy. It's been three. What I've learned is the analysis of colonization in how far it goes and the impact? It could generations. I always knew that but the actual analysis of it has been really helpful and a anything Coming back to New Mexico as just reminded me of agony struggles. But it's also helped me to consider. How do we wick with empathy because most of the struggles have have The struggles today in New Zealand. Different and must've out a young people honored interested in legal battles because we've all must see So what we ah the challenge. We have as as teaching them the responsibility so that they can for the exercise their rights and so I thought those are the key points breath as we start to finish off. Indeed and speaking of colonization. Are there any other coves. People need to poke in more than just really understand and how deep its roots go real. Quick Yeah I think the key thing is to just Christian your behavior in your own home because if you you what you do at home is different to what you do in public and said you continue to question what you do at time How respectful as it to doc cousins? How respectful as to each other? All right you got him thinking now. If you have thoughts on that give us a have a note. Email US comments a native America calling DOT com. You can always tweet us your thoughts to at one eight hundred nine nine native and post directly Kley on our website. That's going to do it for our program today. Thanks again to the two gentlemen who joined us here in Studio forty-nine G Wills Wilson and William Grant Rant also thank you to Americans for Indian opportunity for also helping maker guests available for This program today and we wish them well The group that's here is continue to learn from our native communities. And if you by chance Come into contact and have some thoughts about their visit again. All all those channels to reach US feel free to reach out even send us a Selfie tags in it At native America calling is Or you find us on one of of our platforms in one eight hundred nine nine needed on twitter and tomorrow we're GONNA be talking about rock your mucks. Have you been celebrating all week This this has been going on for eight years now. We're GONNA talk all about it tomorrow. I'm Tara Gatewood. Meet me here tomorrow with my mock saw ooh support by the National American Indian housing counselors 2019 legal symposia the IHOP focused solely on improving housing and tribal communities across the country. Entry will present the latest trends in Indian Housing and up-to-date legal and regulatory issues and lawyers can earn continuing legal education credits. At Bali's all these resort in Las Vegas December ninth and Tenth Information and registration at an eight. I H C dot net slash legal. COON CREEK. Dan he saw your cooking petit. Hessler Kirk Daddy. Dukla December seven day worker Medicare. Is He Daddy. Dukla December Fifteenth Day whipper marketplace's to add code Zia. Yeah Indian health care provider. Accuser typically e Medicare communicate services. GW Ten year. Uh State of America calling produced Birds National Native Oi Studios in Albuquerque New Mexico by Qantas Broadcast Corporation and native nonprofit media organization funding is provided by the corporation for Public Broadcasting Casting with support from the public radio satellite. Service Music is by Brent Michael Davids native voice. One the native American radio network.

America US William New Zealand New Mexico William Grant Chase Wilson University of Canterbury Steve Anamar Tara Gatewood North Dakota Alaska Albuquerque Shoshoni Netanyahu Antonio Gonzalez Bismarck Tribune Wyoming University of Canterbury Moder chairman
Just a Number: Stories about age and science

The Story Collider

29:29 min | 2 years ago

Just a Number: Stories about age and science

"Science story. NYU? Scientists the fell. Well, it was that golden moment because science was on my side. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the story collider where we bring you true personal stories about science. I'm your host Aaron Barker and this week representing stories from storytellers who feel either two older too young to be scientists. I can relate to certain extent until I was about thirty years old. I looked like a teenager. It sounds like a nice thing. But it's not it just means that you have adult acne. Nobody trusts you with anything. Frankly, I'm glad it's over. But back in the early days of story quieter. I went to a storytelling show, and I heard a doctor tell an amazing story. And so I wanted to go up to him afterwards to give them my card and ask him to tell a story story quieter. All these kids sort of gathered around him asking him questions, and then he turned to me, and he said, and how old are you young lady? And I said twenty seven how old are you on the bright side felt so bad about it? He did agree to do the show. So. Onto our storytellers for today. Our first story is from shell McCracken. It was recorded in June twenty eight teen at the copper, Al and Victoria BC. The show is produced in partnership with the association for the sciences of limb -nology and ocean graffiti, otherwise known as low and the fame that night was water connects. It happened spontaneously. I was sobbing. Uncontrollably in the women's bathroom. When I figured out that someone might hear me, I grabbed a while toilet paper, and I ran into a conference room. I'd had this kind of meltdown before. But it was always at home a safe place in front of my husband. The fact that this happened at the office made it even worse. What's wrong with me? I should be happy with my situation. I'd gone to top business school climbing the corporate ladder at a high tech company magin manage managing a team of financial analysts and a big budget like hundreds of millions of dollars. But the reality was I felt like a failure. I was I hated this hyper competitive working virement. I hated feeling like this cog in corporate machine. And I was just miserable. All the time. I couldn't let anybody see my meltdown the conference room had a small door. I'm sorry. I had a window in the door. And I sat with my back to it. And I pretended to fiddle with speakerphone that was in the center of the table. So someone looked in just would assumed I was on a conference call. So I stay long enough to regain my composure, and then I put back on my finance manager face. And I walked down this long gray carpeted corridor back to my gray. Cubicle. That was nestled amongst all the other hundreds of gray cubicles on the floor. Now, what about the same time husband, and I had taken a trip to the Grand Canyon. And while we were hiking, we came across a wildlife biologist, and she was using special equipment to monitor condors that had been raised in captivity, and then re released into the wild, and our culture that are critically endangered, and we were among a group of people that were standing around her, and she was explaining what she was doing in the birds and the Queant, and it's obvious. She loved her job, and she was with the US force service. So she had this uniform on Brown shirt and this hat, and as I looked at her it occurred me like, oh my God. She looks like ranger Rick and ranger Rick is the raccoon mascot of the national wildlife federation. And as a child I loved animals, and I would wait every month for ranger Rix, nature magazine to come in the mail, and it was glossy magazine full of pictures of animals and talk about their habitat and the environment and I loved it. And on top of that I had all of these field guides that I would just go through all the time. I was ready to identify like beavers and elk. And and you know, all these great, you know, mammals that live in North America now or could identify them by sight or by footprint. I was really into footprints the the the kind of reality. I didn't recognize the time was my family lived in suburban Detroit, Michigan. So the wildlife was basically squirrels. But so. But seeing the wildlife biologists. I realized like oh my God. I could have been her like as a child I was so full of curiosity about the world around me. And when did I become this corporate zombie? So the fact that I'd had this spontaneous meltdown at work made me realize that you know, I think I'm losing control, and I probably need to talk to a professional about this. So I started seeing a therapist that my employer paid for. And I did a lot of soul searching, and I came to terms with the fact that wasn't well suited for my current work environment. So I started looking for new job, and I put a few, you know, education's out there, but I secretly hoped. They wouldn't call me, my heart just was not in it. And I couldn't get this wildlife biologist out of my mind. I felt drawn or compelled to like I really want to do something with the environment. Like take this path. I didn't take before. And because I invested so much in my career in finance. I thought my God, I'm having a midlife crisis an early one premature, of course, but it's a midlife crisis. And so I tried to put these lots aside, but they kept coming back. And so I went through this period of time where was seriously like, should I stay should I go? What should I do? And I finally decided I would take the plunge. I would just leave the corporate life. And I made up my mind I would go back to school at nearby. Arizona State University was nearby where we were living and I would enroll in their conservation biology program. Now when I told my colleagues. My player. There was no there was no drama. I mean, people might have thought I was crazy. But nobody said so and the news made one of my analysts Steve really happy because Steve would be promoted into my job. So I've been replaced before it even left, and I wasn't surprised by this because rule number one of the corporate world is we're all replaceable. So I was excited about the decision to go back to Arizona state. But at the same time for someone who always had like a five year career plan. I was kind of terrified because I had no idea where this would take me. At the time. I decided to go back to school. I hadn't had any formal science education in about twenty years. So like back in the days before the internet. So that I have some catching up to do and I enrolled in freshman level, biology, and chemistry classes, and that's one. Unacademic adviser told me that I am a non traditional student, which I learned later meant I'm old. So when I when I interact with C traditional students, I realized they were young enough to be my children, and they didn't really know what to make of me. And they would they would call me, ma'am. Which you know is actually quite polite and respectful. But my meat response was I'm not ma'am old. I mean that's grandmothers, and I I wanted to correct them. But in the end, I just tried to be cool laugh it off. So I kind of find myself in this man's land. Where on the one hand it was difficult to maintain relationships from my previous life my corporate life because what we had in common was the work. And when that was gone, we just drifted apart. But on the other hand, there was just too much of a generation gap to make friends with the traditional students. I expected to leave this no-man's-land. Once I started taking the conservation, biology classes, I thought, you know, I'll find people mature that are like the wildlife biologist passionate about their work. And actually that was the case the professors, and in the graduate teaching assistance were you can tell when they talk about their work with endangered species. They loved what they did. And that that was inspiring. And during these classes, you know, learning a lot and was interesting, but I wasn't feeling the sense of curiosity and wonder or the enthusiasm, but I was expecting. And of course, then the crazy thoughts start going to my head. And it's like, oh my God. It wasn't midlife crisis. After all I've abandoned my career and for these ranger Rick memories, and I tried to tamp down those feelings because at this point one kind of committed, and okay, I'll just focus on being a good nontraditional student. So I threw myself into my studies, and, you know, preparing for an exam, and one of the classes, I was taking the time was in a college class. And I was I put up my notes from lectures, if he weeks ago as I was getting ready for this exam, and the professor had given a talk about elemental cycles, and this is how the key elements of life carbon nitrogen phosphorus move between like land and the atmosphere and an oath. Sion's and he had handed out these box and aero diagrams the basically showed these flows, and as I was looking at what I had written. I realize that Britain numbers next to the Aero's Aero's would be like, this is how much nitrogen goes from the soils to the atmosphere and from the atmosphere's to the soil, but the notation that I'd used I'd really on the way written the notes, it's like it's kind of like how I would have written it for like a budget like it's kind of like cash inflows and cash out outflows. It's like the hadn't really dawned on me during the lecture. I just listen to notes, and then I remembered that during the lecture he'd actually used the word budget when he talked about. These L mental cycles, and my reader may reaction was like, oh my God. That is so cool. I like, I I wanna know more. I mean, scientists, you know, use budgets understand the elemental cycles, and these budgets are kinda like what I did in my previous life, so great sow I steered off the path of conservation biology and into the laboratory of an ecology oppressor who studied nitrogen in streams and rivers. And I was getting paid minimum wage to assist. One of her graduate students Tammy with her lab and field work now at that point. I'd I'd worked for years indoors under artificial light in small cubicles, and in the days before business, casual I wore like, you know, the worsted wool, suits and the cotton starched shirts with floppy bowl around my neck. And so now here I was outside working with my hands. And. After particular -ly intense encounter with. A flash flood. I complained to Tammy I have never been this dirty in my entire life. And I was serious. And I wanted I expected sympathy. And. And she laughed at me. And I think I actually laughed too. And then I proceed to pick like twigs and pebbles out of my bra and. How far I had come from the corporate world. So today, I make nitrogen and phosphorus budgets, you know, trying to understand related to human activities. How much stays on land. How much enters coastal waters were can cause problems. And I tried to explain these budgets to policymakers and why they should care about them. So I think what this tells me is that I've always been an accountant at heart. It's just I had to find the right units and that was elements instead of dollars. So thank. Michelle mccracken. Michelle is a research scientist at Stockholm university's Baltic Sea center, she moved to Sweden from the US for the opportunity to join a new team that works to bridge the gap between scientists and decision makers in the Baltic Sea region. Her Swedish skills are limited to reading menus and navigating public transportation or next door. Today's from Ben Kennedy. It was recorded in may twenty eighteen at meow in Wellington New Zealand. The theme that night was roic efforts. Okay. So you may find this hard to believe. But in the Paul st-, my vocab scientist colleagues haven't always taken me very seriously. Part of this is. The way I look I'm actually forty two. And now, that's awesome. But when I was twenty five and trying to be taken seriously swelled, this is problematic, and I remember going to a conference and just give them a tool can smartly dressed. And it was one of these kind of stuffy g physics conferences. I've been talking about bubbles and Magna feeling pretty insecure. I went went back down to the audience and. Two guys two professors sitting in front of me. And they didn't know what just set them. Hide them. One of them tend to be other way. We're like, can you believe that kid looks about twelve? Kind of like flush to the head to do. He exit ghost, Nicole. Wanted to grow up felt like Tom Hanks in that way. And that way, I just want to be taken seriously, but it's never really suited me. Trying to take myself too seriously, and I had trouble getting a PHD position took me more than a year to get hot. And I was kind of wondered why later when I found out I had this reference letter from my British supervisor. And in this letter had a whole section in the middle. Started off Ben has a tendency to behave immaturely. And it kind of went on into various details. About charity have. Eventually, I did find a the supervisor who is kind of willing to, you know, take a risk on someone who was maybe a bit mature and kind of light to have foam, it's signs. And I think it was that. For that reason. I really wanted to. Thank that. Oh, stuffy British supervisor gave me that reference tie that really hurt me. But it meant the I ended up with a with a guy who kinda valued the fund science and that sent Bill on the Paul to New Zealand. So I've I've in New Zealand. And I'm still pretty immature and not really taking seriously about but then. Quake sequence happened. And the also I'm from crushed yet and all about and sometimes yes quake secrets happened in that coincided with the birth of my some. So these two very big things on a kind of hut. Very suddenly grow up, and I remember the one of those moments. Okay. Now, I've got to grow up. It was a couple of days after you ask why hunkered down in my in my house, and we're out in some known. We hit quite bad by the quite them. And there's a knock on the door and. And my wife is very very pregnant and ju- at this point. In Oakland, dole and a guy from the Red Cross, and he's just kinda going door to door. Got some information for you. I'm and his information was that the road out of Sumner was now closed. It was impossible because of risk of vote full. This is the only vote out Shana, and you know, we had birthing plan and all this. And now, we're kind of trapped in some. He could kind of see my face. A man. And then he kind of goes ahead that your wife is is ju-. So I bought you this and you had this bag with him. I gave me the bag and the bag and look in the bag and I'm like. Oh shit. It's a home birthing kit like giant, pinches and scissors that flesh. Kind of fair, but I've made but I was kind of a member tanning ran thinking. Actually, maybe I could YouTube this probably. Could probably probably do this. But then I kind of back in the house and realize, oh, no. We haven't any wool to all Palo that allow an internet. I'm not going to be a YouTube this. So I kind of quickly hit the bag and went to my wife. Everything's okay. Rapidly grew up, and you know, the sued opened and my son was very conveniently in the day. We go how and tobacco. I kind of. Started taking seriously and even in my work too. And it started to, you know, pay off in my walk. I was start getting projects where I can be doing serious fo- cana- science research. And even fill in health and safety foams without kind of giggling by route comments or whatever. I had one trip. I was always going off to Hawaii. I had to take politician various serious piece of TV code lava jaycees. So we're not to Hawaii with the Discovery Channel failed in all the health and safety phones. I might get burned to live by twelve hundred degree and mitigate this hazard by wearing this massive ridiculous suit. And went out and did the show, and I took the whole thing very seriously. And it was a very serious experiment about bubbles and getting out of lava flows, and then kind of went back home. And I watched the shower afterwards. She's embarrassing enough. But really embarrassing. It was like how is deadly serious during most of the show it kind of kind of wasn't may. And the guy was there. Where is awesome old Hawaiian guy whose lives out by the law, and he'd flat out refused to wear the massive Silva suit? And he dressed kind of know is. But he had his resign protective kind of fellow proof stuff on eighth. And when the Discovery Channel interviewed him, remember like me, and I was like this is very dangerous for very serious. We're gonna interview him and he's like. Even though I'm older than fast. I can still outrun that lava flow. And that was like. Back. God I'm going to be the serious guy. But. But yeah, this kind of side to my life. I started to realize maybe I need to. Be a little not take myself. So seriously, we. I went back to teaching. And have fun. But my students we had in two thousand twelve there was a series of quakes on mountain Guerrero. And I was kind of joking with my class. All this happens. A law is probably just rain would moving through the volcanoes nothing to worry about. And as often the case, I was massively wrong volcano, and boom and. Am I had to kind of that with my class? But but it was involved in the in the science surrounding this and. Most of the important science into the serious people, but many Stu and cough a little bit related to the the rocks. That come flying out of the volcano, the ballistics Roxette come out of the volcano. They smashed all along the Tango crossing some gone through the roof of the hot the roof top bunk. The bottom bunk out the bottom of the hot. Pretty full on unluckily. We could still kind of laugh about it. Because it happened in the middle of the night and there no one no one in the hot. And I went on the crossings. There's no one cared. So we have this big research effort. And then one them sitting in my office. And. We said we've been doing this. We. Giant cannon mention giant cannon. I can fi rox with and various other kind of machine that can melt rocks to make magma. So we've been using some of these machines to and mapping way the ballistics landed, and and then when the phone goes, and it's it's Harry keys from from Bob mccombs Vatian. He's you know, he's he's the chief scientist in the park, and he's been there for very long time. And he's. You know, he's he's experienced seen all these volcanic eruptions. He's got a bed Scully uniform. You know, he's kind of a proper vulcanologist should look. And you know, this may so he finds me up, and he's Ben let your advice on something. And I was like, wow. This is awesome keys is asking me for advice, and you know, all some science I can actually use kind of talks on the phone a bit. And then. Basically by the end of the conversation. I realized the Christian. He's asking me is Ben can we make vocational proof toilets. That's awesome question on may to answer this question, but of serious off to quench the numbers of it. The Harry will work out what to do and say we use the cannon use mapping can actually together walking with how. We decided that she probably wasn't a good idea to put the toilets in the high risk area. Rather mocks could come in. We decided to put them in a in a safer area. So yeah, if anyone's woke in the Tunga where crossing and they kind of got halfway and you're dying for pay. And you're like, why the hell isn't there a toilet? Here. You can blame me. We decided to put them in somewhere else. And i'm. And this experience kind of made me start to really love science for the sake of just really fun. But important that Piquet Shen. Two signs. Prevented maybe Jim in tourist well sitting on the toilet being interrupted via lodge flying through the roof made a difference here. So yeah, I'm going to have more fun with science and my kids growing up. And my one of my students made me very silly hat. So this is my city. Love where immediately. My Philly grown eighteen year old students thought, this was awesome and paid more attention to me, which is great and my kids loved it. And I thought doing outreach with schools. Where in this city? This big sand. Volcano, and I had a balloon inside it. And I could pump up San brocade inflate and deflate had. These LEGO men out get the kids to tell stories, but the ligament and the scientists the LEGO guys the scientists always the out that was my one one rule of the story. Having fun with this. And then. They they decide to so they've rebuilt kind of university and a big fancy new science building. And having a big grand opening for the new science building of other foot building. And they wanted they were going to bring scoot each's in for the opening, and so they wanna dump some fun things. So I was going to do my little, okay? No demonstration. And the grand opening was quite a. Fancy affair. I kind of arrived there where my silly hat. Michelle teasha kinda look everyone else in suits with bids. And. It turns out just all done, then fine ministe to open this. And so I'm I'm sitting down in the phone. Rather silly. And and he gives this plus wonderful speech about this building's going to be the center. Child. Adults. Can discover the joys of science and all of us light right on. This sounds like she's talking to me here. And then suddenly she actually was talking to me. She pointed right at me. And she went you the the first year student with the silly hats. Do you wanna come on stage at how open the building? Hi that is million. My boss was there. They realized it was made as confusion. I just got a boat up on stage. Settle share the fi pressing button with five minutes when we opened the building. And it was a great moment of five from me. I'm there. My with the prime minister who just mistake me for eighteen year old. And opening this building for more child to experience fun sign and make real groundbreaking discoveries light voca proof toilets. That was Ben Kennedy Ben is an associate professor of geological sciences at the university of Canterbury. As Ben explains it. He loves rocks and working out why volcanoes erupt in various different ways. He travels to various volcanoes all around the world to collect rocks. Takes the rocks back to the university of Canterbury does various experiments to learn more about the eruption in which they originated. Story quieter is grateful for the support of the Tiffany and co foundation and of science and box Simon's foundation initiative, dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science story quieter is led by me artistic director Aaron Barker as well as -secutive director, Liz Neely with help from operations, the port manager Lindsay Cooper and the rest of our mazing team the stories featured in today's podcast from shows produced by Liz, Neely, Mariam's airing hallum carried when Roberts and Dacia. Herbie lock the podcast is produced by senior podcast editors always Saunders with help from Gwen HOGAN, the theme music is by ghost special. Thanks to the copper owl and meow for hosting these shows and to adult acne keeping us all young things listening.

Ben Kennedy Ben supervisor Rick YouTube Michelle teasha Aaron Barker US scientist Harry NYU university of Canterbury Hawaii New Zealand Liz Neely Tammy I professor North America nature magazine
Are we seeing a Te Reo Mori revival?

RNZ: The Detail

22:09 min | 1 year ago

Are we seeing a Te Reo Mori revival?

"New Zealand we have aspirations to hit one million New Zealanders being able to speak Basic Maury by tweeting Foodie one million speaking basic today in twenty years as the government plan. Some say that's impossible in the findings is released and the Royal Society Journal and Based on Census Data Make It look pretty bleak. They say the language is on its way to extinction. But what if we've I've got the numbers wrong. Unfortunately the question on the census is essentially. I would say vague since what I'm saying is I don't think. The census gives us a reliable pitcher. I'm Sharon Break Kellyanne today on the detail language expert Chris Lane crunches the data NC. He's cautiously optimistic. And he tells me why as an Australian he's passionate about to deal my brother marriage and I've original one and hey tribe. A group of people had their own particular language as a chart. I learnt that the last night if Speaker had died in the nineteen sixties axes. But I knew three year study called gift. Theriault a boost help us reach the million by twenty forty even for people who don't speak speak or learn at the study's been given six hundred sixty thousand dollars from the twenty nine thousand nine miles John Fund. BHUTIA WRONG AHO. To quote explore explore with the adult language acquisition can be facilitated by awakening. This latently acquired knowledge called a Proto Lexicon foof well to put into plain language. His Professor Genetic Hang From University of Canterbury we've discovered that Non Mardi speaking. We can use. The islanders actually have quite an in depth knowledge about The funder takes the sound structure of the Mari language. And we think. I've built this up through incidental exposure through their lives so from schools where they might to a few Wyatt to being present speeches. Go to New York. Aw Poor Chord devenue always inspired to uphold the mono of my Tepa as code in the words of the Moldy Pavilion. The people with you. Oh okay okay okay. Hi Marie welcome ceremonies detail. Model Train. J. Singing the national anthem. We were quite surprised to find that people who can't speak model dark. No the means of very meaning Mardi. Weeds have built up quite an extensive knowledge of the word forms of Mardi Protons Lexicon. Yeah so what that means. Is We know that infants. For example when they are exposed to the language. Pick pick-up what we call a proto lexicon and that's woods before you attach meaning to them so imagine a child you're listening to me now and you can understand you know you can hear. Yeah the different words and I'm speaking but wind children listening to adult. Speaking at order sounds like one long gobbled Piece of sand and perhaps get the same sort out of an experience of you've ever traveled overseas and been in a situation where people speaking a different language that you don't understand you can't hear the words that will just sounds you know a complete You know experience. So that's what it's like for children young children and what they do is they proceed. Only sounds and they hear some sounds mock walk on often and more in combination with other sounds and they gradually Lynn Woods but when we say we learn them they understand the form so they might hear the word kit it for example. I'm being spoken a lot around them. And so they get used to. And they realize that it's a weird obviously not consciously they registered it and then they'll attach meaning meaning to the word. They'll see that Kit That's associated with that fluffy animal that I play with so a product is that knowledge of the forms of of our language before you attach meaning to it. We've known and fence go through the sort of stages part of being able to be speakers of a language but we've never known before WH- anywhere in the world that adults could build up a proto leaks Akon and New Zealanders just the ideal place to study this. Because we have a language like Mardi any that is reasonably widespread people get exposed to it incidentally but we know they don't speak it so for example. What kind end of woods did you grow up with? You grew up on the west coast. What sort of Mardi words did you grow up with it? You know you almost take for granted that you you don't realize that you know them but you do I guess even place name so I grew up in So one was growing up on you that was exposed so that would assault written. I heard it spoken But I didn't know that it was made up of Hokey and take out the meanings of those but I got to know those sorts of sound around and combinations and so on and When I went to private school and one of the Fist Mardi songs that we went was to teeter my And we saying that and we saying that without knowing where to meet. It's the sort of exposure that I got as a child in any of us. Why is it important in the whole context of Terrell? Well what we're going to is with saying. Well I K if an adult non MARDI speaking New Zealand's this Proto Lexicon Ken. We ate debated cat. Does it play a role when they do start to Lean Mari and we've got a natural tro sort of laboratory really at the University of Canterbury like most universities in New Zealand. We have teacher training mcchicken and off teach trainees and New Zealand. Two courses and basic real Mari and it came to pray. We have students in these courses. Not only he from New Zealand but we have a reasonably large contingent from Canada. Who Come over to do teacher training in New Zealand? So we're going to be able to try and recruit these. He's Students by New Zealanders and the Canadians and heavy look at what they know before the cost stats. And we'll look in teast. How well may acquire Qua the meanings of the Wu Mardi Woods taught in the course immediately at the end of course in the inner but later on to see how well they retain it and we're hoping to find that are not Speaking Zealanders actually acquire the meanings of words Mardi Woods quicker with more depth than the Canadians and the implications for this for New Zealand? Is that New Zealand. We have an aspirational aim to have one million New Zealanders being able to speak Basic Lisa Marie by twenty forty. Now that's only twenty years away More and more New Zealand is learning to deal. But if we can say well actually actually you've got a little bit of a hit stat. We're not saying that learning a language is easy but maybe the exposure that you've had that you don't even know that you've head to Tokyo Mardi through your lifetime. It's going to give you a little bit of a hit star that would be I. Think an amazing incentive for getting more people to learn to deal yes is it also a case for putting more words into our every time language. You know when I grew up in the news or Read it in the newspaper. They were the odd words. I gaze like Mariah or Hui but it feels like today there are are a lot more words and everyday joost. What would that be create? Yes they certainly isn't people during research on that. And and the tracking that and yes. It's more and more. You may have heard the south non more New Zealanders some sometimes using Mardi words even when the English alternative. I've heard Sports people packing sports people talk about traveling overseas with the final choice to compete. And what they mean by that is the relative sleep sleep appearance or whatever and often friends so I think we are using more more Maori Woods. when I spoke to earlier this week you talked about your sister. Who's lived in Australia Australia for twenty to thirty years and she wind up to y Tung? And you told me that you know she notice quite a big change range and the way we use language. That's right I mean over my lifetime. It when I grow up I told you I grew up in Hokkaido Takata but when I grew up it was hokey tiger and still lives pronunciation for a lot of New Zealanders but increasingly. It's becoming expected that we will give a motive pronunciation to Mauri placenames Kevin Brady Iraqis and the fix it on. Hold okay. It is my sister who's been away for a long time came back and said Oh my goodness i. We went to. Why tangy and I've just discovered that I've been saying wind would marry wrong own these years? Please tell me how to pronounce it correctly. We haven't had any walker jumping recently. we you know. There's a lot of phrases that have come into New Zealand English. I'm in no way swayed constant social media great state by Al Pacino Arrive. You'll tell molly buxom freezing pockets as a why he named Molly leader I about a deep hurt calling someone put the puppy is rather a compensating statement to dismiss out on the he. It's quite the feature of New Zealand English that anyone from overseas comes. You open most newspapers you'll find Probably even some headlines with Mardi weeds in them and and really is the most distinctive feature of our lexicon advocate blurry in New Zealand is the use of Maury Woods we called it the Dole. Oh to apprenticeship scheme this now coupon my he. It's all about young people on the unemployment benefits if this goal of one million New Zealanders speaking what basic today. Oh by twenty four becomes reality. What will we sound like when we chat to each other old? How will it sound? Do you think Oh. I think he'll be just increasing use. is beside of more modern weeds. Perhaps people code switching switching From speaking being English and I'm putting in a prep amaury sentence or a phrase so not just words phrases and even sentences. You've talked me a little bit about. In what your research will do. By looking at this Cohort of students. The Canadian in the New Zealand students. What else will you look it over? The three years will also be doing other sorts of experiments where we'd get people to play a little game that teaches awesome the meanings of Somali Woods. So we will do more experimental type research that will be drilling down into Happy People Attach meanings to Mardi Woods And one of the outcomes is going to be actually were Language Teachers and general a lot of people who teach languages tell Luna's to expose themselves to the target language as much as possible. You know put on a podcast You know listen to as much as possible. Just have of it in the background. And so this an instinctive realization that that sort of exposure is going to help people with language learning and give a lot more incentive for people when the learning languages to be able to pick it up things up a bit quicker. What's your own experience Geneva? I mean to you speak. The language is so I started listening to the Amora longtime ago. I think I started when I was fifteen. So it's been a long long journey. Why did you start learning? It's really hard to sign. I can't really quite remember but I was attracted to the language is a secondary school student and then I studied further at university and becoming involved with the Mardi community joined. What at the time was called Mardi Club at university and we did have Capela hacker and got to know people and I I really felt Gosh Afam New Zealander I? This is part of being a pocket hat. New Zealander is I am is being. Engaging with indigenous is culture here sought became really important part of exploring my identity is a New Zealander. And what is your dream with language. What what would you like to happen? ISA would like to see more and more people we know few started learning to do in the eighty s and ninety S. Actually a lot automotive were quite suspicious of paccar non Mari Learning to new at the time. And that's because the language was an even more vulnerable state But nowadays Mari are much more accepting the fact that we have aspirational name of a million New Zealanders means that we have a lot of non Maury we. We want a lot of non Mary to be able to speak a little bit of today's language. Experts can't seem to agree on whether the language is doomed. Oh not the trouble is we. Just don't have the data to give a full picture of exactly who speaks to both Mari and non Marty I think by needs to be cautiously cautiously optimistic. Kind of shaking revival. Chris Line calls himself an independent researcher. He used to lecture in linguistics at Victoria University University. And he's been looking at various surveys on the language for many years. What my paper for publications as is the fact that you get quite a different looking pitcher depending which statistics you look at based on what question has been asked so in the censuses assistant question that's asked asked in what language or languages can you have a conversation about a lot of everyday things says the census question if you just look at data from that census question mouth is still l.? Seem to be in decline. But I've looked at data now from four different surveys which comes from answers to different question. which is what is the first? It's language that you learned to speak as a child at the other important part of the analysis if we split people up according to win they were born we can. Let's see a patent so people who were born up to the nineteen fifties this affair proportionate those who have vowed safe offers language Mardi people born in the sixties and seventies very small number of first language speakers if we look at Mardi born in eighteen nineties the sexiest a greater percentage of those who have Maria fist language. Compared with that previous group porn sixties and seventies and so I have looked at this informative and surveys and surveys. You have to be very careful about you. Imagine Viagra all the time that you know these differences a big enough they'd beyond imagine a very We can be pretty confident as to what they mean so the next question is why. Are we getting these different results. And my argument is that unfortunately the question on the census as essentially I would say is vague. Since what I'm saying thing is I don't think the census gives us a reliable pitcher. I think we're actually getting a somewhat more reliable pitcher if we look at those first language statistics two six which do show evidence of a revival If we compare the first language into the speaking proficiency the thing we see there is this quote a lot of people who you have moldy or say their mouth as a first language but then as adults I say well actually now my proficiency is not very good good. So there's a degree of attrition which I might they might have been born into a home where molly was was spoken more than English English but for various reasons they have lost the language year in the world. Think of it is you can get kids started a- As fiddling with speakers you speak to them as young children or whatever but then there's another whole journey in maintaining language and getting it into account of adult level of usage. I think add knowledge of what's really happening is is actually really quite patchy. Yeah an undischarged sort of shed a bit of light on it up to the nineteen sixties. It was a really a very negative attitude towards mountie and let him out. He went who could speak language speaker to their children in the seventies you start stop to get a lot of vegetation for Mardi language in schools that this petition ninety seventy two petitions so And various things starting batting up like data to teach Mari to families and so on. That's a beginning of a big change of consciousness for Mardi but also this. I've seen this sort of gradual change of consciousness. furtherest two vessels. Well because I'm not mighty and I think that Sultan important pad you know to have a sense that is more acceptance of the language is probably an important padded his. It's a mysterious process. I remember twenty years ago trying to find a sort of guidebook to how do we go about language revitalization. Is there some way somebody. That's down at the control. You how it works no. Nobody's really done this. Kind of a revitalization vitalize ation of an indigenous language. Lots of people all around the world. Look to Mardi Moutier in the front this really. What about Wales I think don't well seniors wiles as an executive somewhat different example while to sound very well in using education to will both I maintain and actually expand language but at the most recent statistics are looked? At for Welsh they have not turned around the intergenerational national language transmission the learning of the language in the home is still appears to be declining and wells. There is a kind of revival through education And we may have thought that was sort of the case with Maui because a lot of the research has tended Vegas on Coronado and could Copa Oh papa and educational interventions and so. We've almost noten what's been happening in families and the other thing I found also also in the research is that people. His his language is melody. Were extremely likely to go to Colorado and could cope up a so the the things are sort of and twenty again. I think ear. There really is strong evidence of this sort of groundswell reversal of the previous loss of mountain As the revival is actually going on but meanwhile we I suspect we won't even say it in the twenty s since the statistics. We might see this Quiz Jeff Question. You ask different questions you get different. Data epilepsy steals statistical. Issue here. And what's your thinking because I think the government's goal is one million Terrell speakers by twenty forty. Actually I haven't really looked at in detail depends Has Been indicated. The question probably match on exactly how you define line. Who's a speaker and what questions you ask people? Just go about that sort of cautiously optimistic. It's a had struggled really elite and as an important to yo you know you're not just doing it for the sake of looking at data as as the revival of the language important to your peers. It is I grew up in strider and yet my my brother marriage and aboriginal one hit tribe. A group of people had their around particular language. As a child I learnt that the last night if speak here had died in the nineteen sixties. This who it was struck from the saddest. Saddest thing yeah and But I came ever hit a New Zealand in the seventies and started lending Mardi about the second year that I was here and I had a wonderful experience with that actually become reasonably proficient in speaking which I know you're Loa can still understand what people say. So I you know I do have a strong personal bond with the language itself and I would the whole the concept of the the survival and revival of languages. That's sort of close. That's the detail today. I'm Sharon Kelly. The detail is brought to you by newsroom. Dot Co dot did and made possible by iron seed and inside Iran Air had the subscribe button to stay across the detail everyday we day. And if you're on April please leave a rating as it helps other listeners find us. This episode was engineered by Jeremy Ansell and produced by Alexia Russell. And thanks to Janet King and Chris Lane Con whitten.

New Zealand New Zealanders Mari Mardi Mardi Woods Wu Mardi Woods Lynn Woods Tokyo Mardi University of Canterbury Mardi Club Lisa Marie molly Terrell Mardi Moutier New Zealand Chris Lane Royal Society Journal government New Zealand English
Fifty years after the moon landing, the space race speeds up

RNZ: The Detail

20:57 min | 1 year ago

Fifty years after the moon landing, the space race speeds up

"I'm Alex Ashton and this is the detail fifty years ago. Those now famous words of Neil Armstrong will broadcast around the world as he became the first person to step cheap food on the moon up and over now with Cheshire of space tourism going to Mas and Monday on the moon. We're nixed and the space race. Nineteen sixty nine was a big year on if it was Woodstock C._C._B.. Streets hit the screens greene's tick ticks invented uh-huh wallow less exciting stuff was happening on Earth on the twentieth of July nineteen sixty nine. Something special also happened off if we copy it down half a century ago American astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin landed on the moon as people around the world set glued to their televisions and radios ideas among them John Earnshaw America's professor of astronomy at the University of Canterbury. I was a student in student residence called University House in camera and there was a common room them with a grainy black and white T._v. and just about the entire population of students residents in University House with clustered around that T._v.. And I remember that this so clearly fifty years later so it was very exciting people saying what was the mood like in the room. Well everyone was gops. GOBSMACK terms was or inspiring but just the evening I watched a B._B._C. Documentary on Apollo Eleven and what really struck me as just how primitive by today's standards lot of the technology was yet got them to the moon safely and back again and there are just so many procedures and that whole <hes> journey which could've gone wrong but fortunately they didn't cost average the students in those days and I was not involved in space but I wasn't voted in astronomy and there's tournaments we also using primitive equipment by today's standards so I've seen in astronomy changes over fifty years as an aspiring astronomer at the time. You must have been quite inspired seeing that well absolutely I think actually it's not just for astronomers it was everyone everyone was just amazed that. Catch this was <unk> possible. Does it feel like fifty years ago. No not really somebody's time flies and it doesn't feel like fifty years ago now. A lot has changed in those fifty years risk from a space exploration perspective. What are some of the major shifts that have happened over the last five decades? I think the surprising thing is that's the follow astronaut some went to the moon landed landed and explode but fifty years has elapsed since that program and no one has set foot on the moon in half a century and that is about to change in the most massive way because many countries not not just America the Europeans the Chinese the Indians the Russians even the Israelis have a lunar program. Everyone now wants to go back to the moon. After fifty years of nothing happening. I think the reason for that is that it's now <hes> much easier and cheaper less risky together. The moon and there are many <hes> big prizes to be had from going back there. It's mining minerals on the lunar surface for example the many rare elements found in great abundance on the moon rare earth metal for example also helium three is available in great quantities patties on the moon. That's a light isotope of helium which is incredibly rare on the earth but quite abundant. I I read those about a million times or more of this ray light casts helium three buried than the <music> surface of the moon they bring that back and it's worth about five billion dollars a tonne five million dollars a tonne by billion billion U._S. dollars of helium three. You can see the appeal in but you mentioned earlier so it's more accessible to get out and technologies paper and visa but why now is there any particular reason why all the countries listed before seem to be getting private end different enterprises involved <hes> Elon Musk and SPACEX said they wanted to go two miles and maybe get that even before NASA. Does I mean the long term aspiration is to develop the technologies necessary to transport large number of people in Kagera to Tamaz us in order to create a self sustaining civilization their and that's really why I started the company because it seems to create the possibility for life on other planets yeah exactly the moon is also seen the staging post from ours and I think <hes> within the next decade they'll probably be man. Permanent Manned Station on the moon probably much better idea to have a man stationed on the moon than the International National Space Station which we have at present which is near the end of his life so <hes> criminals station on the moon sounds like a good idea so it's not just mining as a stepping stone to mouth. Do you think that we need to be careful with with exploring the moon space in general this whole thing about commercialization and going there to see what's there. I mean humans don't have a great track record of resulting mindfully duly so do we need to be a little bit cautious. Yes yes definitely not that's the danger of human life. It's the risk of doing something destructive or polluting <hes> spreading living organisms on the moon and ruining it for ever if we make a mistake so there are risks and dangers and doing the wrong thing already space exploration has proved to be problematic in that a lot of space junk in Earth Russell but which people haven't really thought about some of them just <hes> you know the strain that or bulk from a spacecraft orbiting yes and thousands and thousands of little bits of space junk which could <hes> kinds of severe problem is the space junk collide with a spacecraft especially when carrying people were coming down the ladder now the ladder put that on the hell. Could you see the moon looking and say fifty years with the way things are going well extrapolate from the last fifty years and two fifty years into the future got no doubt the change in technology will be equally as big and it's really hard to predict what <hes> space exploration will be like fifty years from now but almost certainly it's going to be very different game probably easier and cheaper and less dangerous. I predict addict a bright future for space exploration more accessible sure but do you think it's either going to be at a space where the middle class could go to space. There is already space. Tourism and people are suspending wealthy. People are spending millions and millions of dollars to go into space not yet to go to the moon but that may yet come. I don't think it's going to be something that regular you a meal. The average rich passion than the street is going to do for the holidays. Take a holiday on the moon or anything like that. That's not gonNA come in the foreseeable future not even fifty years natural human curiosity does exist and it says the reason for wanting to go whether that drives everyone. I'm not sure but yeah it's certainly one of the factors I think I think it's mainly however the economic benefits now that are foreseeable from mining the moon go to say admittedly I'm not coming at this from particularly scientific bet ground but talking about mining the moon sounds sounds like a scary and dangerous concept today right. Is the any body organization were group making sure. We don't really miss this up. I could be wrong. I'm not sure what the United Nations is doing. I'm not aware of anybody which has authority over what we do on the moon so I may be wrong there but my knowledge is possibly implicit. I'm not aware of anyone having jurisdiction. Awesome of what happened outside the Earth scary there are laws about what you can do in the near US environment and space in solve it but on the moon. I'm not sure if there is so yeah it could be scary. The United Nations drew up an outer space treaty a couple of years before the moon landing the crux of it being that countries can't claim to own the moon over one hundred countries signed it including crucially the Soviet Union and the United States the U._n.. Developed the Moon Treaty in one thousand nine hundred seventeen nine hundred thirty up the rules but the new vision wasn't ratified by some key countries and like many international treaties enforcement is tricky. I think it's going to be a need for <hes> lunar lawyers to enact some kind of universal code for all nations. That's just a thought about what might have to happen. In the future to control troll activities on the moon census. We does New Zealand fit into all of this short space. Exploration is expensive and there are probably other countries bitter equipped to do it but that's hardly stopped us before right. Hi It's me Tim Dodd the everyday astronaut no. I'm not upside down. I'm just here New Zealand to a rocket labs gorgeous new rocket factory. Honestly I'M GONNA hesitate to call it a rocket factory. This place looks a lot more like a modern art. Museum Tucked Away in Mt Wellington. Auckland is New Zealand's very own roquette factory so I'm here inside rocket labs brand new mission control and is absolutely incredible and and this is just a tiny portion of the entire factory which is seventy five hundred square meters. This thing is huge Patriot big as rocket lab seal. The thickened description rocket lab is we <hes> we build spice infrastructure so <hes> we launch satellites into orbit now to provide services to Earth <hes> in disservices range from with a two communications crop monitoring <hes> <hes> yeah vast arrive have clients from <hes> from commissioned startups to develop in the first set a lot through to folks like NASA <hes> who obviously <hes> have very well non brain within within the industry governments <hes> and in large commercial companies as well and you sort of mentioned earlier but why do people want to see instead lots up but you need to figure satellites as like hidden structure so different to order pipes in the ground you can't see them but they provide <hes> a lot not everyday life so a lot of lot of satellites and all but that provide a lot of things that we use every day that <hes> that you may not be aware of welcome aboard. Thanks for lighting fuel safety kindly ask you to please searching for example. If you call up <hes> well guess what all of the information is coming from space <hes> she watch T._v.. It's coming from opposite a lot <hes> in geostationary orbit he went to. Look at the weather and what the weather's doing tomorrow that information as Gannett from <hes> spacecraft and looking down on the earth so we the pedants so we actually used bison everyday life <hes> it's just it's not visible so it's kind of easy to forget that if their health cost as space technology would technology around space exploration and around what you do as well seeing said lights up. How fast is that moving on critically probably the fastest era in history? I mean we think spacecraft this craft. Now that can sit on sit on the you know the tip of your finger hole integrated spacecraft. If it's in the typical thing and <hes> you know even a decade ago that spacecraft would be decided refrigerator or more <hes> so we I mean just massive massive changes in you know Roka lab is is an example housing changing <hes> four and a half years ago we started electrician program. <hes> now we <hes> the I only smoke which provider on the planet <hes> delivering spacecraft Tolbert and prior to that <hes> as only being one of the company in history of of of human species that has either <hes> put a lot of it and that is <hes> spice ix you know musk's spacex. There's only two of them brought to that. <hes> it was a government took. It took a whole countries where of engineers and if G._D._p.. To put anything in space <hes> now to to commercial companies have done it and they'll be they'll be many more of our uh we did you stop becoming interested in space. Oh God to me I mean I I was always fascinated by spicer's young as I remember and <hes> you know I was was <hes> I think I was the youngest mean either the South Semester Normal Society. I can't remember how well it's been. It was incredibly young. I didn't understand a word that that anybody was saying but <hes> it's still so fascinated me to seal the pitches inches and <hes> degree supports supportive father who who take me long to these kinds of things and <hes> you know astronomy and space as well as being <hes> at for most of my life space exploration in general. How much has that changed over your career so I mean in some respects a tremendous amount in some respects not at all <hes> and probably in some respects? We're going backwards so if you think about <hes> you know laming landing humans on the moon the competing power was was you know less than than yourself on a long long way so in that respect we're seeing tremendous advances in computing power materials in software and manufacturing techniques techniques cabin father hold of areas it just didn't make Chris and the fact that you've got commercial companies now delivering pilots over a piece to you know breaking the barriers down that it doesn't take a government to do this anymore but another speaks <hes> <hes> you know human spaceflight is being constrained to live with but since the last landing on the moon and I think <hes> if you ask any of the the NASA astronauts landed on the moon kind of everybody would be speaking now that we're on us so in that respect we haven't really really moved a whole long way and now we got him picked the moon which is which is great but you know that's just repeating what's already being done so <hes> in some respects a huge advancements in summer speaks <hes>. We probably haven't moved far enough yeah. That's interesting. Do you see say over the next fifty years a movement back towards human space travel. Are we going to really make more of an effort to Simba's or anything like that. Well I mean you have to look at the context of why the minimum mm sample this race was about our own sense of security Russians clearly work at a bus so the attitude is we would like to do something really big grin what the rice against the Russians in a Cold War so the with gripe political need to be the first to get to <hes> now. There's not that political need didn't have to be another need <hes> and the other the other logical need is a commercial reasons to be at the how do you save rocket. Lab's Swick changing over the next few decades would also you clientele. How do you feel clientele changing yes? I I mean the whole purpose of what we have set out to do. Here is is we gotta spice to prove block on her fits. This that's really the goal here and <hes> exiting spice is being the big area so frequent access to space is is you know is not there and we're working super high to create that once you've got a frequent exit space and you can start to build infrastructure arnold but and you know some of the things we talked about earlier. <hes> you know G._P._S. and the monitoring. That's all helpful stuff that we will use an everyday life but the bit that's that's going to get really interesting. Is that <hes> you know we have. We have some issues is down on earth and <hes> with respect to to climate change is really only a good way to really assist. The pulse of the planet is to take the high ground and look down at the moment. We've got a very you know inwood met credit legal. We're looking at rivers in <hes> on the ground and and <hes> sheets on the ground <hes> but space is really a wonderful way to to take a whole series of instruments in measurements and really try and understand what's going on and you know I don't I think many people realize just how few instruments are spice working on this right now and <hes> you know it's going to be absolutely critical for us as a species to really understand and and then if they'd be influenced plant to <hes> to be able to survive so so that's the that's your answer as well like us to the question of what's the point looking around in space. Yeah I mean <hes> the the comes back to the point that I don't think everybody realizes just how reliant they have on spicing everyday laws so if you have the cheapest system Tim Tomorrow <hes> you know it'd be Bikaner on the planet <hes> his would be oh series of of of businesses and and systems and some in everyday <hes> infrastructure that would just immediately file <hes> same with communications turnoff spice communications and <hes> you know locked would just did get really hot want us up and they just <hes> you know things that are currently in over <hes> not liline all the things. Is it a plane to hold it so <hes> you know I think <hes> I think it's it's an incredibly incredibly exciting time close to it. That's the details today. I'm Alex Ashton. The detail is brought to you by newsroom.

Alex Ashton United Nations Elon Musk New Zealand Neil Armstrong United States NASA International National Space S University House Apollo Eleven greene University of Canterbury Bikaner professor America Mas SPACEX Buzz Aldrin
The unlikely freedom fighters of Hong Kong

RNZ: The Detail

23:18 min | 1 year ago

The unlikely freedom fighters of Hong Kong

"This is the detail i'm sharon. Break kelly it's the cry of hundreds of thousands of protesters eastern who braved torrential rain to protest and hong kong streets again at the weekend and that's despite growing warnings from beijing but this is not unusual angry young mob within the mums proteins. We've had the lawyers proteges. We had the teachers protest they would try. They would taxi drivers protest thing. They've been government officials protesting. This movement has broad support within hong kong the people of hong kong want to maintain the one country two systems moto although but the tanks are at the border and china's not backing down this propaganda video from china showing off its armies army's capabilities and the strong message is that the unreached will not be tolerated in china's ambassador to britain seed this last week after violent heilige classes at hong kong airport. Hong kong is part of china. No foreign country should interfere in hong kong's internal affairs. We urge those foreign forces to respect china's sovereignty and security immediately. Stop interfering hong kong affairs. Stop interfering during china's internal affairs soap conniving in violent offenses university of canterbury's china's specialist anne-marie brady sees people are angry because the government's not listening they've seen a culture in hong kong with a focus on business and and don't get too involved in politics takes so that's what's so remarkable about these protests is finally paypal have had enough. They recognize that it's a fight to death. The days of the society the hong kong government has suspended the extradition law that sparked approaches smaller than two months ago but people are still still angry hong kong people knows that things are getting really desperate now and they really really have to stand up and be counted and and that's what we've seen so amazing to see broad range of people who are coming out and speaking out move from emory brady later but i wanted to find out more about why an estimated one point seven million people protested at the weekend. That's about a quarter of hong kong's population. A contacted acted an old friend and hong kong who had means nine hundred ninety seven when i hear that was the year that britain handed the territory back to china new zealand journalist us voting england has lived in hong kong for twenty five years. She went along to sunday's proteced. It was delightful very peaceful very charming very collegial people physically happy to chat if anything i would say <hes> the mood was a bit more somber than it had been at the similar sort of watch a couple of months ago and i think the main view being expressed by people was not concerned about recent violence. I mean people say that. Violence is wrong but that it's quite understandable because these huge peaceful rallies seemed to make no difference at all to the government and that's that's the main point from everybody was that you know where is the government they keep parachuting these lines that they've been given presumably by their bosses in beijing changing <hes> but still after months of logically mostly in the majority entirely peaceful protests there has there's been no actual engagement with any single demand from any of the protests so that's that's the thing that's really concerning people and the other thing is a genuine deep seated anger. I mean when couple of accountants said to me yesterday. We're just so furious. That's why we're here and they're furious at the police ace. What they think is a very overly aggressive and very unfair response to the protests. Who's there is that all across hong kong society r._c. Or is it mostly young people. There were all generations represented from the six month old baby of this couple of accountants by the way up to people in the ninety s and eighties in in wheelchairs that the bedrock of hong kong society. I mean it's a it's a highly developed highly educated professional society and that's what you see on the street. You see the broad middle classes of hong kong. I mean i everybody i spoke to yesterday. They were doctors or teaches due to one person within i._t. And a couple of other people literally civil servants and they're telling me how things have changed in recent years in their work and how they no longer able to be professional for example civil servants <hes> following the rules as they like to do and what wii and why have things changed for them. Oh where to start the sort of obvious things that people outside the government see is interference with with <hes> who gets what job it's an attitude of you know you're with us or against us so at the universities for example very senior positions positions have been withheld from people who are known to have pro democracy sentiments but yesterday civil seven lady was telling me that when she goes to work and she's dealing with something like a procurement contract <hes> in the past and she means actually under british rule and there were rules and they followed the rules. Now there is a feeling that no you do as the boss wants. You don't just follow the rules. You have check. I you know what's the political is. The land your boss is probably your boss because he or she has shown some loyalty to the chinese government and therefore has different priorities what about yo and and all the years. You've worked there and loved their. I mean you a you still experience the same levels of freedom that you had in your early years yes in daily life i mean when i'm going to the bank of the supermarket of course <hes> nothing has particularly changed in terms of being a journalist. There's a lot more looking over your shoulder and wondering if they're going to print this this time or not <hes> there's a lot of self censorship and particularly in the last few months there have been direct attacks physical attacks on journalists covering the rallies people afraid at all because you know now this reports that they chinese tanks thanks are at the border and shinsen and that there are <hes> police there and seems to be you know a demonstration in by china they they could wretched things up. A people worried well. The short answer is no <hes> i mean there's <hes> my accountant fences offensive yesterday <hes> had brought their six month old baby and many others at their babies and they grandmas and all sorts of things and and i said <hes> you've worried and they i said no not at all i mean of course we bring him. Why not this is a sophisticated society. People know that all that stuff about the tanks the troops is is intended as a threat and and women to be intimidated and i think what what hong kong people are saying is that they're not intimidated. There is still a sensation here that it it would not be very good for china. Let alone for hong kong if they really did send the troops in. There's no expectation on the ground in hong kong that they they would really go that far. But of course you can't make any predictions and i think also you know for people visiting it must be confusing because because ninety nine percent of the time everything here is going completely normally if you weren't reading the news. You wouldn't know that anything was happening. <hes> i mean it's probably not a good idea to get stuck right. In the middle of a demonstration as night is falling the patent over the last few months things have been going in a violent direction action it happens just after duck and it happens around police stations and you know those sitting sort of flashpoints that frankly most of us wouldn't and not be around it such time and place anyway so i think if people are thinking visiting hong kong they should absolutely do so and they should talk to as many people as possible while they hear and find out what people are really saying and they'll find that they're just like lots of people in new zealand who have become used to a certain level of off else freedom and autonomy and getting quite worked out if it's going to be taken away from them but we're also getting reports that there are people in hong kong who are pro government elvington infected was a proteced at the same time of people who support the government so how much how much support is there for the government and as much do you hear much n. T. pro taste of feeling there was a big protest on on saturday <hes> <hes> that but he's a really important distinction and nobody that poses for say maybe pro government they were saying they were pros police and and there's a strong awareness on on all sides of this current sort of battleground that the police are put in this really difficult. They're the piggy in the middle. They have been left holding the cans so to speak and the kind of tear gas and the government is largely absent. There's there's no leadership. There's nobody coming from the government saying anything remotely helpful ju ju they could have solved this political problem two months ago if they had wanted two and in fact this is what's really also interesting that the pro china political groups which a large and well funded and well organized and often do quite good work on the sort of local level in different neighborhoods they are really annoyed at chief executive carry lyme and the government for sort of helping to create this whole mess in the first place <hes> because it makes the motor pad and it will cut into vote there will be some district councils asu very local small scale elections coming up in november and this will hurt the pro china policy so so they're also noted the government so it's it's okay to say you put cook fleece but it doesn't mean you surprise. Why has it accelerated should so quickly. Is it purely just because of the extradition salou no. That's more like this sort of last straw. This is a grown-up educated place. People are not stupid and the head being treated as if they're just sort of siphon hyphen who can be moved around. They're not used to it <hes> so there was a an earlier issue which is about the construction of a high speed railway line <hes> to connect kowloon to guangzhou in southern china festival. It's hugely expensive. It's our tax x money but it's their idea to spend money on making this trailing it got vastly more complicated even though they were they were purchased about demolition in addition villages and all the rest of it to make room for it but on top of that it was decided that <hes> because there was no stop between here and the mainland that therefore we needed chinese state immigration officials operating in hong kong on hong kong territory this is in clear clear contravention of the basic law the constitution that governs hong kong's status as autonomous with china there was huge protests it there's all overridden and it was just imposed on us that we now have indeed a little corner of kowloon is now technically mainland chinese janis territory legally possibly the government felt because they've managed to push that through they could push the next one through <hes> but but things that cumulative and this was after i mean partly what i mentioned about the university probably a lot of perfectly respectable law professors and other similar kinds of people being put in jail because advocating democracy several of the the young people who had been leaders of the occupy movement <hes> as a few years ago and then entered electoral politics and being elected to the legislative council and had then been egypt. It'd by the government mental disorders excuse and of course meanwhile the chinese government has actually adopted people from hong kong territory booksellers literally just taken out of their homes and offices and the next thing you hear they're in a chinese prison somewhere and being forced to so called confessed on on television and some of them are still locked up so where the limit it feels like it's come a long way and a lot what has changed since i was there in nineteen ninety-seven win really was a place where everybody just wants to get on and do the business end people. It didn't really want to make a fuss about things. That's true you're right. It has come a long way since i think they were forces at work before ninety seven that you know a lot of us don't necessarily notice at the time you don't see things in perspective until a bit of time has passed <hes> there has been a growing sense of love being distinctly hong kong identity so the young people who have been in a way on surreal frontlines of the protests in recent weeks <hes> most of them weren't even born in ninety seven and certainly none of them were around when tenement square massacre happened in nineteen eighty nine so the these are people who you know they're not acting out of some sort of historical memory of that kind of event a lot of them. I motivated and you see in these wonderful t shirts and all sorts of publications that are producing about the fact that they are hong comets. They may be ethnic chinese. They may even have an emotional emotional attachment to china but they are home commas and this is something distinct and i think this is ultimately what is most threatening to authoritarian state is is a large educated population saying no with different with fine. We're happy to be part of china but we're different and and this idea that they're not being allowed to be different. Turn to attack us or trying to just turn up line ideas and it doesn't help. We're just trying to find out what we already half. What how how is just wanted to stay home. Call where not the money running whistling extra so this growth of hong kong identity. I think we didn't necessarily notice it really enough. Before oh ninety seven <hes> they were small groups who were saying you know. Hong kong should have a say over our future not just some kind of talks between london in beijing you know what about us that grew exponentially after ninety seven when people are discovering oh you know we're not just british colony <hes> <hes> <hes> we're actually something different. We actually treasure some of the things from time in british colombia. This is what makes us different. We're not just another the chinese city we have been an international port city for almost two hundred years and i think the point now is that a lot of people are saying well. You know we were a colony of britian and some of them now feel as of now. We're a colony of china. If you had a chance to choose colonial he would you choose academic. Emory brady's criticism of china has made <music> a political target. She sees beijing is already playing a strong hand and trying to control the unraced in hong kong. They feign very credible overcoats that there are chinese police working with the hong kong police that there are chinese potty cells within the hong kong police that they were paying a plainclothes <hes> chinese state security officers who've been in the protests and behind the violence so <hes> there is definitely date level of infiltration from chinese security forces within hong kong so there is uh an interesting situation where offensively it's hong kong responding hong kong government responding to the protest but me mom you have a massive show a fourth both just team coloma's ivor from the hong kong border and shindand of a huge number of people's armed police tanks thanks and personnel and then they were <hes> practice anti-riot exercises but they're just so so brace and coming up in speaking out and this is what's holding beijing back from taking action. The chinese communist party sees that the protests in hong kong have had mashed international interest and support and they understand the consequences of using violence as they did in in beijing in june nineteen ninety nine using violence to crush the protests so they're trying every other possible means <hes> to try and bring the movement under control a you seeing how this is being reported an entira for awhile it wasn't being reported on at all and you know what sort of interesting is to look it out new zealand chinese-language media and how much chimera they lined the coverage <hes> from the she is cool xinhua line shinwari official news is in the chinese comey's putty so if you look at the chinese chinese herald that have bailey covered a hong kong protest and the <hes> rick coverage that they do this is to say the the hong kong riots no discussion of the issues behind them very occasional reporting and only very negative and that's the xinhua hotline which is not just within my name china about all around the world and the chinese language media with the exception of the following on paper. I put in one or two ria. Dissident papers like the vision times. I've rinsed sidney. What's so incredible. <hes> about the people's republic of china hi this is a isn't the chinese communist party has managed to get their editorial nine accepted and followed by chinese language media all all around the world and so we're seeing some quite rabid attacks within in australia and new zealand and and in other countries where a minority of <hes> people originally from mainland china coming out and attacking those who are expressing support for the hong kong practices in what about surveillance do you think this much surveillance going on among stay the hong kong protesters that that china's using any sort of tactics to identify who the protesters are that kind of thing. Yes sir soon they soon after the the first of the big million strong protests there was a guy who was arrested and he was forced to by the hong kong police place to open up his fight and i got access to his twenty thousand strong <hes> groups that he was <hes> i mean girls like can <hes> pei. Pu are interested in the pro chase. There's a a high level off the violence on those active in the movement but they've been very astute because they have experienced this before the umbrella movement in two thousand fourteen <hes> knox seventeen nine days and some of the students soon involved in that would singled out and sent to jail so the what's the you about the movement this yet is they don't have a high profile figures representing them they were democratically and they'd discussion groups <hes> to come up with a decision about what to do next so for example. There was a discussion last monday to say hey. We need you to apologize to the people of hong kong and international travelers about the disruption we calls also due to the protests <hes> on the weekend at the airport and that was a collective decision of either the five to into the papal on that discussion group the head is saying be washer and they i like water and the way in which they are <hes> discussing issues and adjusting to new situations but not identifying leaders could be <hes> singled out a racist taken away <hes> extraordinary how they communicate using thing isn't it and how they can quickly a symbol and very quickly dispersed. Yes spain quite incredible to see the some of the things that happened for example tempur when people notice it was a passion that after protest because approaches tend to wear black t. shirts after protests when they got on the subway the home that dr beckett the originals nations and find that some will be basing them up because everything black t. shirt then anonymous would put colorful t shirts on the railings of subway stations near the demonstrations area so you could get change and put another t shirt on <hes> we fight station instead instead of the level of resistance within hong kong society is absolutely phenomenal seems like they taking the best of every other pro-choice movement there ever was and and then adding an <hes> modern technology <hes> like encryption software and they really are extraordinary but you know this as i see. They've got plenty of experience. The and the hong kong people have had enough so they are being warsaw. They're looking at every possible way out. That's the detail for today. I'm sharon break kelly. We brought to you by newsroom. Dot co dot insead may possible by the are indeed in sedonia innovation fund had the subscribe button to stay across the detail l. every day and if you're on april please leave a rating as it helps other listeners find us. This episode was engineered by jeremy ansell and produced by alexia russell astle kentucky mess. Alani is our associate producer cockatiel.

hong kong Hong kong china hong kong government hong kong airport hong kong beijing hong kong border chinese government chinese communist party britain emory brady paypal china festival university of canterbury spain england warsaw sidney
Springfree Trampoline: Keith Alexander & Steve Holmes

How I Built This

1:03:12 hr | 2 years ago

Springfree Trampoline: Keith Alexander & Steve Holmes

"Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from CFA society. Washington DC does your wealth manager measure up a CFA charter holder. Does they have the investment expertise to unlock opportunities? Other advisers might not see learn more at the right question dot org. Hey before we get to the show, just a favor. We'd like to better understand who is listening and how you're using podcast. So if you can help us out, please complete a short anonymous survey at NPR dot org slash podcast survey. That's one word it takes less than ten minutes. And it really helps support the show. That's NPR dot org slash podcast survey. I decided to invest in some fundamental research. And I wanted to ask myself one question did any retailer in America believe that trampolines were dangerous and so dangerous that they wouldn't sell them. The answer was yes. And that was Costco, the CEO of Costco, was manage Jim Senegal. Jim said, I will not sell trampoline while and so I met at my mission to try and sell Costco, trampling. From NPR how I built this show innovators entrepreneurs deals and the stories behind the movements. They built. Guy Roz today show how shine New Zealand professor with a crazy invention and a Canadian businessman who believed in its potential teamed up to create spring-free, they call the world's safest backyard trampoline. So I remember a while back. We didn't interview with James Dyson and Dyson, of course, is the inventor of the Dyson vacuum cleaner. And he described how he came up with his vacuum. He worked in his backyard shed he built prototype after prototype after prototype testing and perfecting his invention. And for a lot of inventors. That's familiar story. Right. Finding a problem tinkering until finally a solution. But the next part of the Dyson story the part where James Dyson manufactured, the vacuum cleaner scaled his business, and then became one of the wealthiest people in the UK. Well, that's not exactly the typical inventor story. Because for a lot of inventors the end goal is the patent the patent that someone else will buy in take to market because a lot of times inventors don't have the time or resources or ability to go into business themselves. So today on the show, we're going to do something a little different. We're actually gonna tell two stories the story of one man Keith Alexander who invented a safer trampoline. Maybe even these safest trampoline ever. And then the story of Steve Holmes. The man who took that invention and made it into a commercial success. Because even though Stephen Keith aren't technically business partners spring-free trampling couldn't have been a success without one or the other. Keith Alexander grew up in New Zealand. His dad was an engineer. And at first Keith wasn't really sure what he wanted to do with his life. So he joined New Zealand's version of the peace corps, and for a while people worked as a grade school teacher, but then he decided to go back to the university of Canterbury in Christchurch, and he found that he actually really enjoyed engineering is I started doing my engineering degree. It can't breathe and suddenly realize that was what I loved wish. Somebody had told me many before that I was exit engineer found. I could get is the quite easily. So I did a masters and they ended up PHD. And what are you like we the kind of engine near who just just always looked to tinker like, a tool shed like were you always tinkering away things? If of always tinkering, especially through a PHD and had always had to work show. Like a like a a bench with tools and equipment. That's being put of a beach somewhere. If it wasn't the head. These wrecks that I made with all the tools on. And I could take them off the wolf pack them up as you do you make well made all sorts of things did not exhibition amid a six months trip for that exhibition. Collapsing cheer. I made welcome woulda shoes and faked funded myself through my PHD, by winning woken woulda competitions. Wait. Sorry. Let's break this element. What's what's the walk on water? She's welcome would've shoes radio Aven, which was the radio and cross stitch at the time put up this competition, we'll water competition thousand dollar prize. Sorry, they sit to their audience. Hey, we've. Come addition. If you can figure how to walk on water. We'll give you dollars. That's about it. It's about it. Okay. Well, at that time, my father had been developing some welcome mode, shoes and Oakland. He and I'd been playing around with it because we had a dingy and we'd been figuring out how to do this. So that's a tinkering in the garage, you need some flotation. Yeah. The competition put limits on on how big these flotation things could be. So it ended up being even let have anything longer than one meter, and it was didn't take much for an engineer to work out. How big a piece of Palestine hit to beat taking Kevin way. See? Okay. So you you were coming up with some kind of flotation device that you can feel your feet, and you could sort of walk on water with that device. It was balanced that would allow you to kind of you know, hover on the surface of the water. Yeah. That balance thing is is the tricky the first big step and the solution is put your feet on the bottom. So you cut a hole in it. And you put a bit of plywood on the bottom say your feet go right through. Through to the bottom. And then it stays upright to the the polystyrene is around your ankles. That's right. And you invented this is my father, and I invented this. We hit to make the competition with it. So I flew back from Oakland are gonna stay with my parents and built the issues to compete in this competition and a managed to win the competition. Two years in a row, and then wanna third one at Oakland and that helped fund up he HD because you've got two thousand bucks. Yep. Back then a thousand bucks was Moore's more like flat thousand now Lau, so what what were some of the things that you came up with or you try to invent well, full the otics edition. We had quite a few there. One one of my enduring experiences was having a hick during my PHD university. And this young ditzy lady was giving me the hit cut. And she said you realize you're sitting on top. It was really embarrassing. So I thought that would be a good thing for young guys to have because it can never see the top of your head. So I made this. Both PECH inspector what I call. It was a couple of mirrors. So you look in the mirror, and you could see in the mirror, and you could move the levers and just the nurse and see the top tap. You could stand in in fairly near move a lever. It would reflect the other mirror, and it could show you the top of your head. Exactly. Yeah. And you could see whether you're going bold. So what did you do once you finish your PHD? Well, at first I thought if I want to come back and do a condemning life, I really need some engineering experience. I don't think I'm a valid teacher of engineering Cup, some engineering experience. So with a PHD, you decide I've got to go out into the world and get some experience before I can come back and teach. Absolutely. That's right. So a move back to Oakland and got a job in an engineering consultancy. What kind of work? Did you do started off as a value? They wanted to value. What does that what does that? I knew nothing about what valuation was okay. It was looking at a piece of machinery and working out. How Mavericks cost Hello old? It is and after two weeks. So I was getting pretty good at it. After two weeks, they found I could do other things as well. Working for a he got a variety of things. This was quite a bit of insurance work. There was a crash investigations. There was a bit of court work as well. So it was quite a broad range of stuff. I wasn't particularly happy with it. Because it all comes down to the money in the end. It's all how much have you been invoiced this week? Yeah. And I really liked spinning time on things putting more time into thinking it through properly. This is like I guess the the mid nineteen eighties. You were late thirties. Early forties free, married. I got married in ninety ninety five. Yes. So it was while I was at the engineering consultancy in Oakland. And did you have kids pretty soon after? Yes about two and a half years later. Ninety ninety seven your first child was born. This child was bull. How many kids do you have got three? So I'm assumption is you are doing consulting work got a young family. And this is probably a pretty steady lifestyle like bright. Yeah. So when you would come from your consultancy consulting job. Would you come home and go into your the work bench area and tinker build things much to the regret of my wife is she took her awhile to get used to it. So you were like the mad scientists in the back of garden working on your crazy ideas. Not all the time. Not all the time on the early ones was a magnetic flying machine which was opposed to use use magnetic field to fly. But. Very proud of what I did. But it didn't work to the laws of physics extra support that idea. Yes. In the in one of the best ideas would be to go to the south magnetic pole and put a big ring of conductive material around than magnetic field. They're put a huge current through it, and it would actually fly into space plow, but it's kinda hard again, not very good place for spice port. It sounds to me that like what like well really motivated. He was site of trying to solve problems. Is that right? Exactly. How you would explain it? That's pretty good. Yes. If other people haven't been able to solve it. I want to solve it. It's a real challenge. That's something that excites me. No one else has done this. I want to do this because no one else has done. So. Okay. So what what was it that eventually like mixture thinking, trampolines? Well, when a when I was a kid. I'd love the trampoline. I just love the idea of being in the air. But you couldn't buy trampoline in those days. This was gymnastics trembling. We we head one of the school again in the gym class. You get city kids there, and we had to get on jump three three bounces seek drop get off the next that was that was my jumping. And you love this. And I love this thing is three jumps. Yep. And that really frustrated me so when they started available in the shops, and I had a young. Child was going to get one of these. Of course, of course, she's only eighteen months old. But you know, let's young then I'll be able to bounce on it too. And so I said to my wife, and we're going to get a trampoline fa-, Katie. And she said, no, I take it a place into they don't have a trampoline place. You know, they just too dangerous. All this isn't like nineteen eighty nine. This is not an agent. And she said trampolines and not safe. I think all right. Well, I'll just prove wrong of look at the research and see what can find. So I looked at the research and sure enough even in New Zealand had been some research done on the increase in injuries from trampolines. And I thought well really dangerous. Maybe I can do something about it. I'm an engineer should be able to do something about this. And that's that's when it started. She you look this research, and you you you you realize your wife was right? Trampolines were not Sam at my my wife is right. Yeah. Yes. But you wanted to trampoline and you wanted one for your daughter. So I had to think of a way around that. So would you do so thought right? Well, if I can design on I'm sure trampolines pretty simple shouli can dissolve PHD in engineering. Sure. And I loved designing things this surely be able to do it. So let's design one that she'll accept. And maybe you can even sell it. I don't know. So so take me back to that moment. You're thinking I want to see if I can come up with a trampoline where do you start? I mean, do you. There's no internet at the time. I mean as easily available internet, so how did you even start to think about how you do this? Right. So I'm gonna come up with a trampoline. Well, what are the issues here that we have to solve an and the traditional trampoline goes steel bar around the outside agents springs right beside it. And in the in the met you jump on in the middle, and I can see that it's dangerous because the accident rates have gone up. And it's pretty obvious. You give this noise Belsey things to kids and they'll bounce all over it. And they'll lose control and they'll full on the bar or they'll full on the whole between the springs, so they fall off or the full off. But the thing they'll probably hit. I is still around the age. That's the thing. That impressed me most of that still bar. That's not fair. Let's see if we can get rid of that still by that. There's a good steep. So I'm thinking well inflatable things are soft. What have we replace the steel frame with an inflatable ring just like a beginning tube? And then stretched the trampoline met across the top of that would that work ally. See like a giant heavy duty innertube tire. And then you have like the canvas inside of it in this spring part would come from the inner tube at first I thought well put springs on. I mean, we can put rope around there to hold the springs, and we could have the met connected to the springs. So a sketched us up on. I got a canvas company to make full me and got some trampolines springs and some row Abbar Kotas seabiscuit at the time, which is like big inflatable like zodiac, but circular. Yes. That's and you totally behind the buck. That's what that's what it was four. So barred one of those from from the candidate company, actually tried it out, and it seem seemed to work at that time. My son was about two and a half years old. And he bounce thought he could bounce. It was only about the height of achieve. Why? So if the kid fell off I didn't have thought a gun and the age was inflatable in salt Adler ever. So you actually literally made this. You stretched canvas over this giant rubber tire boat dinghy thing, and and you had your kids jump on. That's right. So that's the first one in the purpose built one. So the one that we fool my mind paid a couple of thousand dollars full just had the met sewn into the top age of this big ring. And that was good for the kids at the time. And your wife was happy with that. She was totally comfortable with really happy with that. This is something that kids can actually pick up and cut round the back yard. And this was like how big was it that was about eight feet across the, of course, was more like five feet because it was on the top of the big problem. Well, several big problems number one. The material cost was about eight hundred dollars. Beck at that time, just material cost. So there's no manufacturing. Ended always leaked as always the air would come out here. It was supposed to be taught didn't matter. How many times pollute pot and try to find the leak and those problem to problems said problem, it just wasn't bouncy? I mean, I couldn't get any height on. This did not bring you back to your school days. We had this three jobs that throws massive giant chumps? We've get lots of air or getting I'm flying. Maybe twelve inches or something nothing around which is pretty Sipho kids. You don't really want three years old. You don't want them jumping to high. So it was great. It was great for the kids to have it. But it wasn't what I wanted to. Okay. So you you start to realize that the scene is just not gonna fly. This is not going to be the thing that could be fun for a while for the kids, but it gets deflated, and it's can't jump very high and in any way, you can market this thing. So so what do you do you go back to your to the garage, and and start again well around about that time, I sat down summarize all the sketches gotten all the ideas, I got because this is not bouncy of gotta come up with otherwise doing it. I went through a whole range of ideas and came up with. Civil quite complicated ways of using springs. So at this stage, I was working at the universe. You got a job at the diversity of Canterbury in Christchurch in Christian teaching mechanical engineering, I'm assuming use ahead of contract contract that wasn't a fulltime job. So I didn't have tenure but ahead of job the and that meant that I could for educational purposes give students projects to do. He had the final year of engineering the students get an individual project that would go the whole year. So I put that up as a project his an idea for making a trampoline completely differently with spring some different way. What can you do as a student? What can you come up with? So just to just to get sense of when this we're talking about the mid nineteen ninety s here right like ninety five ninety six around then astounded at university in ninety six ran a couple of university projects and ninety six ninety seven and I gave him pretty close guidelines because put a lot of thought into it his away. I think we could do it. Could you? Good one. Could you do the analysis on it? And at that time, I had this idea. My mind, I found very difficult to Mason never seen anything like it was a bit like a basket with these these things say like fishing rods. Obviously, if you could have fish on the end of the fishing with the fishing world, it's going to be it'll keep like emotional. We'll keep some tension on. Maybe I would make one like that was out of that material something like five, fiberglass luck fishing, rod material. And I thought well if you stuck a fishing rod and the ground over the stuff another one here in your tied something between them you get the tension. But then they're sticking up these things sticking straight up. And if you're on a trampoline on the top, and you fell on it because vertical if you fell right on the edge, you can empower yourself on them. So what if we laid them over? So that they are forty five degrees. Then if you landed on them that been down so that was the idea. So just to picture my mind, the idea was could you get some kind of material it's a fishing. Rod like a short. Her obviously. Yeah. And an angle at forty five degrees in a circle let's say and stretch canvas over that. And essentially that would be the trampoline. He would bounce on the canvas that was laid over these angled rods that were bendy that's a pretty good description of. So you had students work in making like a prototype of his new trampoline designed. But by the how big are these things they made full-size one's foot diameter? And had it work using using those like fiberglass fishing rods, the fiberglass rods that seemed to work. All right. That's all that was sitting there it was more bouncy than the inflatable one. So as going in the right direction it had more promise. It wasn't. Yes. Exactly there yet. But it had more promise. Yes, you're right. I was thinking I need to get a commercial person involved by the station. I don't know how to commercialize it. I don't know. Whether it's going to be commissioned at I had no idea Litz, contact someone. All right. I wanna ask you about what I would imagine with slight complication, which is at this point. You were Keith Alexander backyard. Tinkerer you were also Keith Alexander professor at this university. What does that mean about all the work? You did. Right. Because oftentimes as the case of the US when you work on something university. It's their property if it's MIT or Stanford Harvard or whatever. Well, that's exactly right. What I'm supposed to be doing is publishing papers. But they did have this new policy that just came in a couple of months after I'd started they said, if you come up with an idea, that's commercialized of all you've got to tell this new commercialization office that we've just developed that you've done it because it belongs to the university one hundred percent or and I thought well, I already thought of this. I'll be doing this at home for a while. And now I've got a job at the university. Well, I caught commercialism and I had to do. That they say they know how to do it follow cyber also on the paper. So every idea you have they own which is not uncommon not uncommon. So I went along with it. I'll let them have it if they can Commissioner as great. So I took it to the show them. They said all this fun. It's a kid's toy see what we can do. And which put in the meantime, they they were just like do whatever you wanna do. They knew they were not paying attention to you then paying attention what they wanted to something's gonna make millions of dollars. They don't really want to Charles they want like a biotech something then Otake ano- Teno. Photonics thing. Yeah. Not like enjoy your kids trampoline. We're we're paying attention to these guys working on nanotech. Yeah. So I looked in the yellow pages. I found the biggest trampoline manufacturer in New Zealand. He was selling four hundred trampolines the Wrangham up. And he said, yeah, I'm interested send me some photos. I'll be in crossed. You will come and have a look. So he came and head them all the from Detroit and have a look at he jumped on them. He jumped on them. He said well the inflatable one. I like that. But not as a trampoline. I like, it's a great pool. Toy the one with the roads, that's got some promise. But it's too low. It's gotta be high. It's going to be dangerous. It's going to make the kids think it's dangerous, and it's going to be bigger. It's too small. So I want something as ten feet, I haven't, and it's got a pack down. So it can be shipped. So you have to be able to put it all partner symbol. And it's got to be able to be assembled by Sola mother with no tools in half an hour on Christmas Eve after she had a glass of water. Wow. Because I always get people ringing me up on Christmas Eve, saying how do I see him we'll trampoline. So you're going to sort that out. So if you can sort out those problems, I'll be interested, and you thought I thought okay, there's a challenge. And we've got a company now is interested, and they'll pay one of these students who've was heavy to work over some to build this ten foot vision and see what we can. So that's what we did over the next year. We had this student working away. He built up his ten foot trampoline. That was higher. We could test it. We could pull it apart put it together. Again, we put it all into boxes we couldn't assemble in half. Now at all the other things we could do and we found that. There was another company in New Zealand that was quite specialist in cultural fiberglass infect, they head used it in as a spring, and we were using it as ivory glass springs and experienced that. So we started forming relationships with them so formed a relationship with him. And this company would making four hundred triples. We started to build some prototypes. Full testimony trials five prototypes customer trials and headed turn out. Well, it was I was pretty pleased with I thought we were going to market at this stage because a head commercial person. I we head five products customer trials and the guys from the commercial arm of the university came along and have a look because there was a bit of Toronto going on. Yeah. They look at it. And they said this is not Mark in ready. You need another fifty thousand hundred thousand dollars to make it market ready. And then they went away the university said this. Yeah. And so what does that mean? Well, I thought that was the end of it, really. I thought I can't get one hundred thousand dollars fifty thousand dollars. I thought it was market ready. But I was very depressed and you needed the university's permission because they owned it. They on the they owned it. I didn't have to do any more. I was doing all this work. Supervising this and try to get the money to support making these customer trials, so the dream dice over. Well, I thought so, but I always just like challenges, and my mother-in-law she'd ring up to talk to my wife, and when she'd get me on the phone, she'd say and keep hell's that trampoline going a hope you still working on it. So this was an idea I really wanted to assist with. This is a problem in the world and needed to be solved. By a safe trampoline of go to do something about I'll just try to keep going around this time, the commercial of the university hide and other person and he'd actually taken product market before. And he had a look around New Zealand try to find their investors and New Zealand were interested in in the end you looked in Canada found someone in Canada case, we got someone to Canada. I'm going to send him a photo. And we'll see where we go from here. When we come back almost fifteen years after Keith started tinkering on a new safer kind of trampoline. He gets to see his invention. Finally, come to market, stay with this guy. Roz? You're listening to how I built this from NPR. Hey, everyone just took. Thanks to two of our sponsors who help make this podcast possible. I to squarespace squarespace is the all in one platform to build an online presence and run your business. Create your company's website using customizable, layouts along with features, including ecommerce functionality, mobile editing and squarespace offers built in search engine optimization. Go to squarespace dot com slash NPR for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch us the offer code NPR to save ten percent off your first purchase, website, or domain. Thanks also to legalzoom with their network of independent turns licensed in all fifty states. Legalzoom offers a variety of services wills and trusts to LLC's trademarks contract reviews. Legalzoom helped more than four million people take care of their legal responsibilities. And the best part is. Legalzoom is not Alava. He won't get charged by the hour. More information available at legalzoom dot com slash built. Hey, it's is Berg host of NPR's. Ask me another for the entire month of April were celebrating women in comedy, and we're kicking things off with Russian doll actor grittily and co-creator, Leslie Hedlund and later in the month. We'll be joined by Reta from NBC's parks recreation and good girls and many more start listening. This friday. Welcome back to how I build this from NPR. So it's early two thousands and Kice university finds investor who's interested in trampoline and his name is Steve homes at this point Steve's in his mid thirties. He's living in Toronto. And he's been involved in a couple of successful small businesses. Steve, no, some investors, and he's got access to a little bit capital in eventually Stephen Keith get on the phone to start discussing the details of Keith invention. The end of the phone garner member saying the Keith, okay? Keith, can you mail it to can you send it to me? Ship me the trampoline. Yeah. Just ship me the trampling, and there was paused because I think the money was an issue, you know, comic ship. The trampling Keith FRA veteran figure is send you ten thousand dollars. We should be the Terrell. I'll ship the trapping. So he's what do you remember about that call it was similar like you were on the phone with and you just kind of explained this invention to find it pretty hard. Remember really anxious about anything like that that call would have made me would have freaked me out. Yeah. And shipping something of seas. I didn't even know that yet the dolls zero zero one to get to America first. One of the things that did make an impression those Steve said, I'm sending untended you ten thousand dollars. So that you can do what needs to be done to get me information that I need and get me a trampoline, and I didn't have that sort of money. So when someone is please ship it to the other side of the world is big deal. And when someone says give you ten thousand dollars that was a big deal. So all right. So so how long did it take for to rival couple of was six weeks and shipping? I can't remember if we are frayed it or not we at the time how to backyard, which really didn't have any grass. So that was a problem we had a patio. And so when I got it it was a little overwhelming so semblance it probably took me about three hours and several bruises and my kids interesting the timer sixteen fourteen and twelve and so my twelve year old daughter jumped on it and she loved it. All right. So so so she she's jumping up and down this thing, and you realize from that. Maybe there's something to this. You know, when it comes to good ideas. I believe you measure it by the reaction of the people you hope to sell it to. And there wasn't a kid in the neighborhood who didn't want to jump on everybody came to your backyard. Well, anybody that we'd let in and so you you get caught up in the enthusiasm of your kids. So when did the the switch off in your mind, where you thought, okay, I'm in like, I need to pursue this cause at this point you'd send ten thousand dollars. But you did not have a business you not in business to the university. Didn't use own this patent nothing. It was just a you just had one really great trampoline your backyard. And and so you have a lot to consider before you invest the money and buying this patent you to find out how much it would actually cost to manufacture it because you had to model this out whether this is going to be viable business. Did you do that? We did are Tober of two thousand two we had secured the pay. Patent with effectively letter of intent agreement in principle had locked up some period of time. And first thing we did was we went to the super show in Las Vegas, Nevada toy no, it was used to be the sporting goods, manufacturing and sociology. And this is this is two thousand January of two thousand three I went to see what the reaction so you brought built one and you displayed it, and we built one we took a prominent spot at the show we hired some dancers from Siegfried and ROY to be our jumpers along with my daughters. My youngest daughter and her three friends, and we just said like this, go bigger, go home. Did you we how how big was the trampoline market at that point said it was pretty small? I think that we had measured that we thought that the trampoline market that maybe a five to six hundred million dollar trampoline market globally. So you were looking for a bite out of that five to six hundred million. Yeah, I've never been greedy, a small business can be good business. Absolutely. I guess we took a philosophy internally which was to think big but start small, and so we tried and what was what was the reaction at the shelf where people say to you. What was really quite amazing? Actually, we had lots of different reactions the first we had was from a retailer came up and said, well, you can't sell this in America. Don't have an enclosure. And I said well, hold on an enclosure is mandatory they suggest but no retailer will sell trampoline without an enclosure. Then I had somebody come up to me and said, you know, I have a patent on the enclosure and you'll never sell this product in America ever, the patent on the close. On the enclosure. And then I had the at the time the CO from what was very large sporting goods retailer come up to me and said, you know, this may be the most innovative product we've seen the show in years. So you walk out of that show. What do you thinking is not dead? It's not dead. So I decided to invest in some fundamental research. And I wanted asked myself one question did any retailer in America bleed. The trampolines were dangerous so dangerous that they wouldn't sell always answer. The answer was yes. And that was Costco, the CEO of Costco, was a manage. Jim senegal? Jim said, I will not sell trampolines. And so I'm at my mission to try and sell Costco, trampling. Okay. But before we get to cost so at what point did you say? All right. I'm going in. We're gonna get this. We're going to buy the patent production. I think we were finished. We had. I I was advancing all of this very quickly. Think contractually all. Locked up by probably may vote three. And what are the cost you to be our sky? I wouldn't even remember the number more than a million dollars. Yes. More than a million dollars by the patent to buy everything. When everything was all said and done all the settlements with the university. I think it was probably close to that. Yes. Okay. So Keith you are professor at the university. You come up with his mention they sell the patent to Steve. And presumably you get a check for it. Yes. The arrangement with the university. Was that what he would be split three ways? I gotta check that was huge for me. And curious at this point. Did you did you have to deal with the fact that, you know, the rights our soul to someone else? And now like this guy Steve is going to make it an like go run with it. That's right. That was a very sobering moment for me. And I thought yeah. Okay. I guess that's the way it is. I guess I can let go now. I don't feel like it. But I guess that swag goes of the coming. And I've got to think of other things an insteps is I'm gonna need a bit of a helping hand. They don't have any trampoline engineers so Dimond. Give me a hand with us. Give me some technical input. Yeah. Fun. Okay. Yeah. And and in that came in fairness, you know, keep an eye how to conversation about risk and reward. And so I asked him what level of risk? Are you willing to take versus the economic reward you expect and he said, well, I have I don't want any risk. He I don't want any risk. And so we reached an agreement at that point as to what his role would be and how he would be compensated. And and so it was good. Okay. So Steve you are running the business from Canada. And Keith you are still in New Zealand consulting on the on the engineering side. So what was the next step Welke than I created the spring free enclosure, and we kept looking at all of the principles of our design and said it better be soft. It can't be hard and everybody had produced enclosures with steel poles. We kept looking at this American Peyton and say, we can't infringe this. So we didn't sell any products. We didn't make any products. We just spent a year building and enclosure for the spring. You had left that convention Las Vegas determined that you had to solve this problem that if you were gonna make this thing as safe as possible it had to be closed, and we decided that we would give ourselves the deadline and the deadline would be the January super show which was to be held in Orlando Florida in January of oh for the two thousand four and what by what made the enclosure different. How are you able to create this thing that? Safe. So Steve said we've now got a relationship with the people make the poultry to. You've got to make the polls out of those sign material. And I said, well, they need to be strong enough to hold this Nate up. So that's all I can we can try at a post grad student who is needed some money. So he's working at back yard. We got twelve of these around the trampoline fitted on and tied the top of them together with some cooled. Let's see what happens when he turned on to this post grad student, you spend the next few days fighting some sort of nip total of fishermen people around the place if we can get some day after four days, he come back with some fishing that he lashed only at the top. And the bottom said was morally selected and enclosure innocence different than the ones that are out. But it was this really flexible thing. So then when I came home from university, and the kids was still on that were bouncing off the wolves running into and bouncing off. And I'm thinking, hey this. It's really something. We didn't expect we've got a new place of that. Other trampolines have we've made a rubber room. Now. This is why to expect it is not just the safety. This is in other places. All right. So you've got the enclosed trampoline. You're ready to introduce us to the world two thousand four go to the super show in Orlando Florida, and they had a competition there, which was called the product of the year, basically. And if you got to finalist or the top ten you would be displayed in a specific area of the super show independent of your booth. So we made all the applications necessary, and we became a finalist. This was the unveiling of spring free. This was it. And how did you do? How many did you get the orders? Will we got one important order by Costco, Canada? Wow. They decided. Okay. If we do it in Canada doesn't seem not as litigious they're already nice people there. They don't seem to sue each other. Maybe we'll try it in Canada. And they put a test in for an essence at worked out that we put in a test for four hundred pieces. Let's try Sally's Cassidy they put north for four hundred units. We had the firm. Store was four hundred pieces on a trial by the by the where were you manufacturing them newsy these first four hundred units, we made I guess four hundred eighty or four hundred ninety I think something like that in New Zealand with one container one container load, and what was the retail price for for fruit bat time, the retail price. We put it out to Canada was nine ninety nine. Wow. Just to just to clarify something. This was at that time going to be one of the most expensive, trampolines. Right. So it was a big risk. And you had to make the case. This was worth the cost. I mean, our value proposition when we had that very first product that we're Landau is the same as what is today, which is that we provide the, world's safest trampoline. We produce it out of the highest quality materials, we give the longest warranty. It's ten year warranty on everything it's still that today. So that was what we kept selling on the retailer side, but you are selling them for nine hundred and ninety nine bucks. That's a thin margin because it probably cost you. It was more than that. We were losing money on every province. We had to do that to find out if we could create a market. All right. So they roll them out and Costco's in Canada. And how did they do move very fast very very fast? So did they put in a second order well because we put it on a test. And that was the spring of that year of of oh for the next recurring. Order wasn't gonna really take place until their next spring by which was oh five. So that it was oh crap when we do between now. And then because you you got to generate some revenue, and you still making these in New Zealand, which is presumably expensive we've transitioned right about then we knew we couldn't continue. They were costing about fourteen hundred fifty dollars to me one to make one. And so we knew we couldn't continue in one of the things that materialize at the super show in twenty three two thousand. Three. I said to you that I had people come up to various things at an individual come up to me with a business card who said, I manage facture sporting goods in China, if you ever need a manufacturer, call me, and when we reached the states with Costco, at the end of a four we said, okay, we gotta make the call which I have to assume was going to be an important move. Right because it's going to reduce your costs. Significantly. Here was the thing that was so critical to us is that key Sipe e was was essential. We had to make sure we could get intellectual property protection. But China everything's copied not everything. But a lot of things it is it is you have to be careful, and we had to be careful, and the other thing is that the rods that Keith had done. We're really they were all about technical know-how. So we weren't prepared to move that. So even to this day, most of the original manufacturing components, the rods and the net material that we use we're using the exact same manufacturing partners. They've come a long way the whole way through the whole journey. We've never deviated from that. But we moved all of the steel at one hundred percent of the labor associated with producing assembly into China. All right, two thousand you gotta wait till two thousand five for this next. Big order. How many people are on your payroll at that point? I think at that point we between our engineering group our sales. Teams. We might have been thirty five and you bring cash. Yeah. We were burning cash we were hanging on. I was running my payables long. We were hanging on for that Costco delivery in spring. Oh five. So so in Costco, came back to you for their spring of five purchase worked out to be about thirty two hundred sixty five pieces in three thousand two six pieces. Good, and but but you needed to finance that. Right. Because they don't pay you. I pay you like after. That's right. So we we hit the street and found found somebody who bought into a Costco peo-. So so this is somebody. This is interesting. This is somebody who looks for people like you who get a get a purchase order from Costco, need financing actually, make the product and they'll loan you the money at a high interest rate at a high interest rate. Yeah. That was your lifeline. It was our lifeline. And to be fairness to this day. It is the reason we survived in and thrive. Even though that order loan was not gonna make you profitable. Ross. You still have a long road to go. We weren't profitable. But but it proved that we because Costco, represented a much bigger animal than just Canada. We went from Cusco Canada to Costco. You k- k was being safe, and we got to go from Cusco Canada to Cusco to pan which made no sense to us. We didn't really know what we're gonna do in Japan, but we ended up selling three hundred seventy trampolines Japan ARCO. And then we got to go on Costco dot com. Their ecommerce new platform for them not in store in two thousand and seven I guess it was so Costco, is up until this point up until two thousand seven your biggest contract virtually in in the northern hemisphere and. Our only we were selling direct in places where we could. But they were basically ninety percent of our distribution. So you are now in this thing two thousand eight stop stop selling the trampling. Yeah. That was probably the hardest point. So what happened is that as we got more and more and more successful with the product in Costco, some of the buyers they were really proud. And so they would show off the product in a real flamboyant way, you know, having it in a prominent position inside inside a Costco's, and Mr. Senegal was he opened every Costco. He came to every Costco opening and there was a big opening and Halifax Nova Scotia on may thirteenth. It was a Wednesday nine never forget the date in my business career, and he had gone into the store at the time. He was still opposed to trampolines even though we were being real. Successful. He was still uncomfortable with it. And and so what he walked into the Halifax store. I get phone call from the president at the time of Candida, Costco. And they said we're done. Would put it when he mean we're done and they said we're done. I said, no, no, no. I don't understand who we're not. How can we be done? And and and we skipped a par guy which is in two thousand and eight we decided to build our own factory and shot because we were satisfied with the quality. So I invested five million dollars in building the Chinese factory. We did it because this was Costco. We were going to be in store. This was change the face of everything. And so we'd been we opened that factory on Tober of two thousand eight. And all in preparation for our two thousand nine with Costco, and on the may thirteenth. We were told we're done. And it was just because they gone overboard in that store. They had made the trampoline one of the single. Biggest highlights in this grand opening and Halifax, and he was just. Pissed the CO because because it was so present and visible. He walks in there and says is this trampling doing in the center of my Costco. Those exact words, I don't think he really knew we were below the radar. We're doing rate numbers too. Great numbers for sporting goods. And so I was told if you need to talk to Mr. Senegal, you got a call on a Saturday morning and Seattle I was giving telephone number to his direct dial to his desk and you called on the Saturday morning shaking in my boots. I called. He was extremely polite. Shared his reasoning within reason. And he said I made my decision Mr Holmes, but I will honor any purchase orders that we have issued up until the end of this month. So any purchase orders that are issued up until the end of the month. We will honor those purchase orders. And hung up the phone, and I went. Oh crap. Next. Call was every Cusco buyer. I could find give me a PO giving peo- give me as a month left had less than a month. I had is that was the that was the sixteenth of may was a Saturday morning, and I had fourteen days and PEOs took longer than that to get usually. Wow. So what you do. What was really good business? Skill learning session. I step back. And I said, okay, we have a product that has unbelievable safety quality and innovation characteristics. We have customers who love our product. I mean, our best marketing is on existing spring-free customer and spring free customer has spring free trampoline. If a parent who says will I really don't like trampolines they'll sell it for me to other friends and neighbors and fifty percent of our sales came from our customers. So we said wherever spring freeze our backyards, we have to make it really easy in our biggest market at the time based on Costco, delivery, addresses was California and Seattle. So we opened our own first spring free retail store on the off ramp of the Costco headquarters in Seattle Seattle. So this is in two thousand well, this is late two thousand nine. So there you had a showroom. People could try kidney jump on. Yeah. We called it. We called it the spring free experienced center, and that store proved to be phenomenally successful. We were blowing the doors off the prophets. And we're just going like there was I think there were very few retail stores that were doing the profit per square foot that we were doing out of that store that store. I mean, they just. I mean, they were just flying off the shelves because it was not the show. But that story started to just sell these things like, I don't know. Let me say this. We had a great dealer network. We established as quick as we could in the US they had trampolines on parade floats. They they went to every fair. They went to every neighborhood. They connected with the communities because we knew where we had shipped. So we had these whether it was a pop up store or whether it was a permanent experienced center. We went to consumers we went out there. We did the shows we had the stores and showed that there was a business model which was different than Costco, hop, and so we took a direct to consumer. And we use Keith as the face of the organization. So he was the one who conveyed the story the the attributes and the commitment to safety and quality. So Keith how did you so off suddenly you've got to represent this product right to the world had immediate interviews. You gotta TV. Like, you're a soft described introvert. I can only imagine that was somewhat torturous free to do. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're Steve to give me warning. He said would you like to be the Dyson spring-free us what on earth? You mean? Dyson Dyson vacuum cleaners. So I wouldn't hit Okun there's Dyson doing his thing. I suppose I could do that. If I come across. Well, you know, maybe they can use it. Maybe it'll help with selling. So I said yes to Steve. So then he says well come to Toronto we're going to have a week a week of filming. And I'm thinking, right? This is big deal. This is not just one or two little afternoons. So it's one of the scariest weeks of my life. Really? So end up in Toronto in this big studio and find myself with three cameras and lights people all around and microphones in front of me. And they said, well, just talk. And you didn't. Yeah. So talk, and then they say, well, you come across really genuine, you know, you really come across well and had come out phenomenal. Okay. And the end. So he's my question for you. I mean, it sounds like you were actually expanding pretty fast at this point. We're over four hundred employees. This is by. Two thousand ten. Yeah. I guess by that four hundred employees what I'm trying to understand. How did you expand to that? Number of employs one just two years before that Costco, pulls out will, you know? Sometimes you do stupid things what we did is we decided to we could gone home and Costco, pulled out, but we actually went deeper. So we increased our commitment than the factory in China. We increased our directive strategy, we increased our ability to open directory del stores. Did you have to raise money? Fortunately enough. We had we had been reasonably. Why is we have been saving for those expansion opportunities rainy days? So we needed to raise we've probably invested maybe five seven million dollars in the factory construction than a couple more million in some other stores. I think we had a debt brains vote at the time three million dollars. But I have to soom two thousand nine even maybe two thousand ten tough years either very very, but we didn't stop investing said like, you know, this is that risk. We kept thinking that opportunity. Big big opportunity was to Statham when did you start to see that light two thousand ten two thousand eleven two thousand eleven to two thousand thirteen phenomenal years for us within the globally. We had. Lots of credit keep his design was always flawless. So that issue of safety that we kept talking about we now had eight years of experience. So instead of saying where the world's safest trampoline. But we've only sold two thousand we were actually saying we'll we've got a couple of hundred thousand trampolines out there, and we actually have statistics. Now, Keith started writing research papers and of measuring our statistics, and we were going, you know, we remove ninety percent of the product related injuries. So he's taken his design remove ninety percent. So we got that message out Kice videos in the way, we distributed them, and we got traction, and we got real traction how much how much does a spring-free trampling cost today while we have six different sizes. So it ranges anywhere from probably sixteen hundred to twenty four hundred dollars. So this is a premium product is very an investment that you're gonna make for awhile key. Always said that when he put a spring free into somebody's backyard. I've agreed with him. We've continued that should be. That's it. They paid the money. It should go in the backyard should be zero maintenance costs, and there should be zero, you know, support costs. So in other words, if they got a problem, we back it. So we have a ten year warranty on the whole product and how many sellin on average of year? Now, you know, we look at the, you know, are probably thirty thousand is our annual volume, and and we build our business model around that we've had years that have gone much higher and we've had some years at a bit a little lower based on some of the economics. I mean, we opened a factory in two thousand eight we lost, Costco. And there was a global financial crisis. I can tell you that wasn't the best year. So we had a tough, you know, we had a tough year that might have been eighteen thousand peace year. I can only imagine this. I four five six years nonstop just nonstop hustling working trying to get this out to market calling people getting rejected people saying the trampoline who who's is. What are you talking about? No, not safe. And is it is still like that today? For some of our staff. There's no question, but it's fun. Like, I gotta tell you. You want to be a fun business being trampoline business because there's never been a circumstance where when the mom and dad have seen their kid on the trampoline for the first time after they've made a spring free purchase that the oh go. This is great most people don't know, we exist. But when they see us they go. I get it. Do you have a trampoline at the headquarters in Toronto? Yeah. Every every one of our offices has trampolines obsolete, and we then they're constantly been used in various forms keyed. You like board meetings on your trampling? We do you can see some office meetings that will occur on travel. Kind of their bouncing moon. We're we're still a one at a time trampoline company. So yeah. So do you consider yourself to be lucky that in this business businesses managed to become you know, sustainable, or or do you think it's because of your intelligence and hard work? I don't know about the intelligence part, but do respect for the employees of organization and for my wife and my kids who suffered through the early days. This has been about hard work. I was very fortunate to meet Dr Alexander, but being fortunate was about a lifelong friend that I got Keith what what about you like, do you feel lucky that all this happened? Or I mean, do you think it's just a product of your, persistence, and perseverance and grit? It's it's both of those, of course of those. I do feel very lucky to meet someone like Steve is being prepared to be very persistent. One of the ways I like to think of it for me, the invention processes, my part of is that it's it's like having a child the moment of conception is quite exciting. And then you carry it, and you feed fees and eventually starts to make people of of its own. And then you get less control, less control. And. Child meets and where they go. And how they grow up. There's not very much control at all. As a lot of luck. The. In that sense of being very lucky as Steve's taken over the pop to get it to the customers sauce. Let's keep Alexander inventor of the spring free. Traveling that Steve Holmes, the CEO of spring-free Kanus still professor of mechanical engineering at the university of Canterbury in New Zealand and also teaches product innovation according to the company spring free has sold over four hundred thousand trampolines worldwide. Please do stick around. Because in just a moment. We're going to hear from you about the things your building. But first a quick thanks to our two thousand nineteen how I built this leads sponsor campaign monitor campaign, monitor making Email marketing radically, easy, so big thinkers can focus on developing. Big ideas. Try it for free at campaign, monitor dot com campaign, monitor make your emails and your business unforgettable. Hey, thanks for sticking around. Because it's time now for how you built that. And today story starts in the winter of twenty fifteen Cindy Heilmann had just moved to Toledo Ohio where her husband Chris grew up in. Cindy was having a hard time just feeling super almost like depressed about the winter for her moving from Florida to Ohio is kind of a bit of a culture shock. Yes. So gloomy being from Florida, Cindy needed warmth and light. So she started buying lots and lots of candles, which meant lots of leftover candle containers if they were in glass jars I would hold onto them some of them were drawers of moping a cabinet. We buy candles and say, okay, this is a really nice pot. We can use it to put her tips in we can use it for something around the house. But the ones that I would buy in ceramic containers. I would normally put a plant in it, and we have tons of house plants. Now this went on for two winters, cold weather candles. Kendall containers. And by March of twenty seventeen there was one big change. Cindy, had become a stay at home. Mom, which was great except for the weather. So one day the friend center card to cheer up. I was wondering why hasn't so many like little thumps and dots on it. Those bumps and dots were actually seeds. They were embedded in the paper. And instead of throwing the card away. Cindy could soak it in water put it in a planter and grow wildflowers. I thought it was the coolest thing ever. And almost felt lucky to have it. Now around the same time, Cindy of bluish-gray planner pot, and she really wanted to use it. Oh, I could put some kindle wax in this and just try make a candle. She said, hey, I think we could sell these. And I did the math my head. I was like that's going to have to be like a thirty dollar Cannell. Nobody's gonna pay thirty dollars for candle and Cindy turn around with. She's like you just bought me there. You can't last week. That's one got another idea. They could make a candle in a plant pot. And then use that paper with the seeds embedded in it for the label people able to grow Louth hours after they're done with the container. So they don't have to throw it away. So they got to work. We had no idea what we're doing. We're just watching a bunch of YouTube videos, different Pinterest, ideas on DIY how to make a candle to two months of melting wax all over her basement, but Cindy figured it out. And then Chris said, okay, we think it's a good idea, but will it actually sell. So they went to a trade show to find out. I was really blown away by how emotionally invested people got into our product a lot of the guys they would have their girl within like this cool product, isn't it? Do you want one and that day, they sold every single one of their candles and covered all their expenses and made a thousand dollar profit. Also a couple of days worth of work. And that was enough reason for Chris to consider quitting. Banking job because Chris and Cindy had been thinking about starting a business together for years. So we were in a really good financial position to be able to take this type of step. So it really didn't feel very risky to us at all. And So Chris left is job and joined Cindy in their basement, they took four thousand dollars out of their savings to buy wax weeks. Pots and seed paper and the eight hundred and fifty candles and over five months at more than a dozen trade shows they sold every single one of them. I mean, it's it's backbreaking work. Go into these trade shows every weekend because number we don't have weekend working really long days. And then when we get back. It's okay, we have to make a ton of candles. So we can be ready for next week and the next event over the past year. Chris indie moved their business online. They got a fifty thousand dollar loan to scale up they hired employees and even moved their little candle making factory out of their basement. But as married business partners. They're still struggling to find the right balance. Having the business out of her home for the. Past year has been a huge difference. We just picked you know, two or three nights of the week. Like, okay. These two three nights after Adeline goes to bed. We're going to work on our business and the other nights just about us. We're not gonna talk about business, and it's going to be all about family. So far, founders, Chris and Cindy Hellman have sold more than twelve thousand growing candles. She wanna find out more about them or hear previous episodes head to our podcast page. How I built this NPR dot org. And of course, if you wanna tell us your story, go to build NPR dot org. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts while you're there. Please do give us a review you can also write to us at H IB at NPR dot org. And if you wanna send a tweet it's at how I built this. Our show is produced this week by Casey Herman with music composed by teen Bluey. Thanks, also to Julia Carney Howard, newer could see Neva grant Melissa grace. I'm Michigan poor and Jeff Rodgers intern is Candice limb guy rise, and you've been listening to how I built this. This is NPR.

Costco Stephen Keith New Zealand Canada Steve America Jim Senegal NPR Toronto Keith Alexander Oakland engineer professor US Guy Roz Steve Holmes James Dyson Washington New Zealand Christchurch
Episode 253 - The Impact of Australian High Performance Computing in the Coming Decade, Prof Sean Smith of NCI

Cyber Security Weekly Podcast

33:26 min | Last month

Episode 253 - The Impact of Australian High Performance Computing in the Coming Decade, Prof Sean Smith of NCI

"Welcome to the cyber-security weekly podcast. I'm jay leno podcasting from singapore today and joining us in the podcast. Today we have professor shawn smith that director of national computational infrastructure and see i and he's also a professor or computation of nanno matera science and technology at australian national university. Professor smith is also a fellow of the royal australian chemical institute a fellow american is association for the advancement of science a fellow of the institute of chemical engineers and he will be sharing with us the highlights of high performance computing at nci. Thank you professor for joining us in the podcast. Today i thought we kick off by taking a look at the evolution and development in australia. Research backed by high performance computing and data infrastructure which plays a pivotal role in national research. But also have wide ranging economic and social impacts. I'm so for example as you pointed out in your presentation at supercomputing asia Looking at the year two thousand twenty the events challenging for many with the pandemic but particularly so for australia with the bushfire which i thought i very salient. Examples of where policymakers and help provide as neat fayza reliable information to get a sense of what is yet to come to better manage the situation but beyond these examples is also cancer research. Physics et cetera. So for our listeners. Can you tell us more about you know audi australia. Research are backed. By high performance. Computing infrastructure have evolved over the decades. You certainly are one constructive way to approach that question. Jain may be. If if i summarize the way in which australia to tijuana one phones compute facilities have evolved over the past decade which gives a flavor of how that the sick to hebron australia has developed in the major demise signs that have been really key in driving it forwards so we have to tier one facilities in australia One is the australian at the australian national university campus. Here in canberra the other one is the posey supercomputing center in person west australia. So both of these centers were set up in their initial in the current model as it were nearly a decade ago and when nci was stood up in its current form. The australian national university has long long history of computing. But the carrots. Nci was put in place around about twenty eleven two thousand twelve and we build a new data center on campus and put in the previous supercomputing facility which was called ryan now when i was set up with financial input from the federal government. They then we're really looking for a degree of leverage of their investment And so the federal contributions to were helped to facilitate the standing up of the big facility and the big shane And the new data center per se and they contribute a certain amount of our national expenses. But i asked us dan to negotiate the larger part of operating expenses. With am i just stike holders. And in the case of nci. This was done by substantial collaboration with four major organizations. I was the australian national university. Which is our organizational host. It was the csi. Giovanni australia and the bureau of meteorology so the one university into three big government agencies collaborated in a way that allowed to build out and develop and the common thread across those three. Big agencies was really climate weather simulation and geospatial science earth sciences and so for example the the great majority of large-scale climate modeling research is done at nci. And it's done. In collaboration between the bureau of meteorology the csi and the university sector which has some substantial activity also in that mind so nci became if you will the collaborative sandpit that these organizations could actually work together on very large common data sets in degenerate very large data. It's through the simulation work and the the other component of that was with geoscience australia. They are the secretaries for the international agreements which bring labs scout satellite imaging data four alpine out of the globe down to australia and nci was tasked to work with Jason social strata. To figure out how to host is enormous data sets and make them there in available findable so forth and accessible and utilize -able and to have them sitting right next to lash compute. So that you could run reading under scale analytics and so those two big demands of s sciences geospatial science and climate weta Have been key drivers which have shaped the evolution of ncis of the past decade. A then looking out across to the police center in west australia. My colleague max nichols is director across there. Currently and and the policy center was set up also rather same sort of time nearly a decade ago and they also had a sort of a divine based big mandate and that was that they were tasked with delivering storage and compute requirements for the square kilometre orion. Which is an enormous international. Consortium don't building out radio astronomy capabilities and so australia together with a number of a lot. Well actually allowed consortium internationally have contributed to to the money that builds these enormous radio astronomy facilities and so the policy center has been molded in some regards to be able to deliver the enormous data hosting requirements. For the right. It was strong amee community and then of course birth centers at the same time have ramped up our ability to service the entire university research sector in all different demands answers that you know that covers the very fundamental research activities in different specific research to minds coming out of university research groups and it works. Its way through to the the big agency mission science that i've talked about already and then on through into industry engagement as well so that in a sense is a quick summary if you will of some of the key driving scientific demands that have launched and moved high performance computing data forwards in australia over the past decade. You touch on collaborations and data management. And i thought we could go into that Two aspects further. But before we do that if we could look at the high performance computer at nci caught the gowdy right so this is yeah so this is As i understand ten times faster than its predecessor and also came online quite recently so the power really comes from as i understand comes from call processing power but also advantage comes from a network computing nodes where the technology is capable of transferring data at very high speeds at two hundred gigabytes per second. You're so right. So can you tell us more about the infrastructure and how it manages optimize you know the job scheduling and whitlow between these Note and how does it deliver the high speed performance. So the gaddi machine An architecture is provided through visits australia. The australian branch jitsu and they have been the policy would with us to lift this facility up. It was designed context Because we service a very wide range of workloads scientific workloads from many different domains insight. We designed it as a machine which had flexibility to deliver different types of workloads and in that context we have essentially about one hundred and fifty thousand has intel course in the machine together with six hundred forty In video one hundred. Gp us to give us that balance capability. We were tagging around about thirty percents throughput capacity on gp years instead of dip on cpu's in recognition of the balance of workloads that we have coming into our facility. And you're quite correct that you know what makes the body architecture so highly performant Is not just the power of the sepia using gps but it's the the speed of the interconnect Which cases is provided through melons. And that allows these enormous Rights of all data transfer between notes As you've referred to jane and additionally of course we'll we have about five thousand uses on the facility and so we have many many different work jobs in work clothes fleming in every day. Twenty four seven. Three six hundred. Roughly three hundred sixty days a year. And that means of course that we have to balance a whole ton of small workloads with smaller numbers of really large workloads and be able to distribute that efficiently across the machine in order get demise throughput and so we work with. Pbs program ltn as software. And these are getting getting these things to work. A really deep dived term collaborations with the different vendors who play ultimately into the solution that fujitsu provided for gatty and does collaborations which allow us to identify bottlenecks. And then figure out technically what's going on and then generate the worker. The work arounds into solutions ultimately a part of the thing which excites as staff. Because there's a lot of real very high tech iron day that has to go on to resolve to resolve the wrinkles that you naturally run into when you lift up a brand new architecture on this magnitude. So the processing power i believe is Quite phenomenon is equivalent to fifty thousand lap. Parts can do what in one hour. What would take an average thirty five years running flat to do. I understand yes and right. And if the fastest in the country the most powerful supercomputer in the southern hemisphere and twenty four most powerful research supercomputing in the world. Yes that's where gadhafi landed in the june. Twenty twenty top global top five hundred rank listing november. Because i do this twice a year as you will now and november. We were at twenty seven. We were very pleased to to get in at that level Twenty four in the middle of last year which was six months. Software launched a full machine and interestingly enough they Hp spec run. We did which got us to think about nine point. Two one point three pedal. Flops was actually run in the first two or three days of the year when the machine was launched. We can only shedule because you need to corral the entire machine and i run it as hot as it can go in order to say. Just what's possible and we can only do that a few times a year because we have said up. Time is the run about three hundred sixty days a year so we have to quite a lot of planning and scheduling in order to make the time available to actually ought to isolate the entire machine and be able to run it to see what it can do At that sort of scale. And so i ask. It's quite an exercise to make that happen. We were very pleased with the outcome. So if i understand right by being able to combine all these Hundreds and thousands of processes to run calculations right and sharing the task between out processes. It means that there are certain types of research. That is possible for the first time. And i believe that you mentioned a couple at the presentation. So major improvements to the cyclone models to generate better visualization for better predictions. I understand moisture evolution. And what a fourth anchor. It also contributed to in large part to bush fire response so i thought if you our listeners through some of these use cases where gouty made a big difference certainly so last year because we had the latch new machine it gave us a substantial bump in capacity and capability. And so we did a few different things right at the start of the year We ran what we call a stress twenty twenty program which really was we reached out to some of the really intensive performance compute groups in our community and offered them early run capacity on the on machine basically to drive it as they could and see if anything breaks and fortunately for us. Nothing did it. The machine stood up. stood up very well But those early testing phase runs now. Generating quite significant scientific outcomes. One of those. That i highlighted in the talk was i climate. A it was a simulation of continental australia about five thousand by four thousand kilometres in terms of the size of the entire grid and it was recreating the detailed with a conditions. That occurred about four years ago when when a cyclone called stockland. Debbie a hit the coin heist in northeastern australia. And so this was It was a wishlist item for the teams Muddling teams coming out of the agencies in the universities who collaborated on this and they use the unified that comes from the uk. Mid-range will office and strategy has caused significant input into that code. And as i understand the car had never been used on a on a simulation this big before it had it had literally something like twelve point. Six billion grid points involved in the simulation and when i started to to plan that calculation it was like. Let's just try and see if it will work. They didn't even know if it would be feasible. Not feasible actually ran and ran very effectively and so it worked at a uniquely small grit size of four hundred meter. Which is quite remarkable. When you think of the size of the entire continental australia that was included And has generated an enormously rich data set. From which can now analyze the quality of the predictions against old different data inputs. That god to compare with which then allows us to understand where our models working really well but maybe where in some cases are still deficient in needlework. And it's that kind of detailed grinding testing of the models against viable data which allows us ultimately to advance the reliability robustness the consistency in the accuracy of our weather and climate modeling and without machines of the likes of godley. We cannot announce that science Now you might say well. Why does it matter you know we can get a little smaller resolution. Does that really count will actually really does count. Because if you are an individual hammer and your concerned with with a water flyers for example on your property or how you're going to be impacted by the next season's weather or even if you're an individual in a city and you want to know this big storm coming am i going to get hit by this not For example there was another picture of my presentation this week which was taken from a hailstone. We hidden camera gen late january last year. Twenty twenty and it came through with little warning and Came through and his trip through the middle camera. And if your car was outside in that region your was literally just destroyed when die smashed bodywork destroyed tuttle mass because i literally newly tennis ball sized hail was dropping down right but if you were you know three or four kilometres away my problem so it gives you a sense of why being able to drill down to great a special resolution in modeling. has enormous implications for everyday life for all of us and of course the agricultural locations. I mentioned as well. So this is one example of the kind of thing that now can be developed. And donna's we move into existential compute. We had no way to test it out previously the other one. I guess i highlighted in the talk was bushfires which hit us over the over. The christmas new year period in australia last year horrendous situation with blanket smoke over the southeastern part of the country and devastation for those who are living in our averaged areas but again it became very apparent that you needed to be able to respond to this and you needed to have accurate robust simulation capabilities to try to predict. Where's it going next you know. And how fast is that front. Moving that fire front moving and was the best way to try and mitigate against it and that kind of response activity to crises like that is something which we can start to envisage being able to respond in real time whereas donald becca decade. There's no way you could respond in real time with that kind of information biased to underpin what you were doing. You basically would have your emergency teams. Do whatever they could. And then you go back and analyze what happened a month later and try and learn from what happens rather than being able to actually analyze and predict in real time and respond in real time. Now i would say that we are not at that stage yet but these kinds of events and the evidence that the likes of god was able to pivot quickly and provide capacity the model who are getting in and trying to figure out what was going on with these bushfires it allows us to see a vision for the future of what may be possible. And what loss will be possible over the coming five to ten years. So it's a remarkable future that we can see that will be independent driven by ideology computing and correspondingly the ability to manage the enormous data sets. That goes side by side with it. How long does it take to build. One of these visualization models and simulation model. Oh yeah so. Yes this the simulation that i show in. My talk was developed by a real expert team. We haven't nci. It's a small team. I woke renowned for the capabilities in terms of generating three dimensional three dimensional scientific visualizations off real scientific data. And so you know. There's a different dimension of visuals action work. Which is more akin to the movies if you like it. Which kind of imagines what selling will look like jenrette visualization around that. Ideally sort of informed by science. But i'll team specializes in taking. The enormous raw died. Assisted come from genuine simulations and then turning that into a visualization which allows the scientists and the public as well the scientists will analyze those visualizations. And make it a part of the testing and probing of the models to see how they really are working again other diets. We've gone sensor data and so forth and the public just to get a sense of the amazing things that are actually being done on this very expensive supercomputers that the government invest in for the benefit of the nation so the gowdy infrastructure is sort of like a national database. Right off his as you say you take in the raw data set and you also mentioned the cyclone. Visualization takes about twelve point six billion grip points. So that's quite a huge amount of data so you do a lot of work around managing the data with fair principles k. and also a quality assurance s back to it to make sure that the data as well as many say garbage in garbage out. So you have to make sure that the data is has got entirety right so you talk a bit about those and also for many of our listeners because they will also be interested in the security aspect of the data as well if you could also speak about the security approach as well. You're so really. I think in. Nci has embarked along this pathway of being able to manage enormous data sits and to envisage an actually implement had hooked as data sits up effectively with lifestyle For large scale data analytics. We've brought along as pathway through our our substantial long-running collaborations with the the government agencies the bureau of meteorology and johnson strategy and so we had enormous status. It's coming in that we knew we had to figure out how to stand up and make them onto bullock sensible into into purple and reusable the called fair principles and we basically had to figure out how to make that work. So so in the nci we have two associate. Directors was on williams who essentially runs the big systems big machines And make sure that the entire facility is really running efficiently and the other assistant director has been evans. Dr been evans. Who works on the side of our organization which builds all these enormous data sets and data services and works on the bed data. That's needed in order. That the data sets can be found quickly and used analytics. Workflows and a lot of work is done with the international communities to agree on data standards because if the data sits in different countries and not using same data standards than you've already got big blocker four into operability right so huge amount of basic guys into data standards of the outset and then cure these data sets generating will the meta data fields and then in in shedding those data sits on really high performance parallel system architectures so it. Nci we is less to fall systems for this really performance. Data sets so. That's in a sense. An agenda that we had to build in order to deliver on our joint collaborative missions with the government agencies. You'll quite correct that there. There are ever increasing security requirements around the data. We didn't come into it at an angle from the get go. But you know geopolitical considerations of developing and evolving And so we are very very conscious that we need to have robust security around the data and fortunately we have been able to avoid any catastrophes in that regard. I i can't say a whole lot about exactly how we implemented a security. That wouldn't necessarily be the right thing to address in this context but safe to say that australia's very conscious that we need to scale up in continually cement security architecture around these labs sovereign data sense. And there's a lot of actually that just moving forwards in australia to ensure that critical infrastructure doesn't date have the ron security provisions around and we think. Nci will be in the frame for that kind of critical infrastructure legislation framework. Additionally this new fields were moving into which is going to put even greater demands on our ability to implement sophisticated lays off encryption software secure end data security. So we're currently in conversation with a number of a major stakeholders an genetics medicine. Here in australia. because australia as as are all countries is on the cusp of a transition from genomic says the research domain with relatively limited desserts. They don't small. We have about four or five pet abides. Genomics data already on a system so long running collaboration. We have with the gavitt institute in sydney. But you know it's been a research domain primarily but the sciences has advanced so rapidly that now it has real and genuine implications personalized medicine and so it is going to move into clinical medicine and that means latch. fractions of the population will will have the gene sequenced. and then. ideally. We need a national data infrastructure solution Which will allow that genomic data to be kept private where it needs to be private but in a sense made available to the research community. Because it's very much a data driven research which advances the research understanding of genetics and medicine and that inflows back into the outcomes from clinical medicine. And so this this cycle going on where the big of a data set you can use to advance your understanding and build a new Science for medicine fades amplifies the benefits of the clinical medicine in that space. But as you can imagine it hinges on having quite sophisticated protocols in place so that you know. Privacy and individual privacy is respected as as it needs to be And data ownership is clearly understood in manifest because these data sets will be used by many different sources potentially. Yeah this takes me to my next question very nicely so you talk about partnerships and collaborations right with joe signs and also the medical research centers. So how looking ahead write how to leverage the best out there how how these partnerships are wall and also what kind of outcomes which you like to see looking ahead say five years you talk about to a more sort of understand to a more data and service centric business model. That's correct. And and i guess an example where where i cannot take. You like why we see that kind of evolution of a national facility. Such as nci is in fact what you could envisage the genomics solution requiring. So as i said we've had collaborations with gavin institute in sydney working on building up highly efficient methods for reprocessing their genomic stay sits in order to keep them up to date with the latest understanding and information tag on data And there's a really big workflows and they have around the computer. But you know. That's been research activity primarily. I would say if you then doll ford's end and say all right. Let's imagine that in two three five years time. A strategy has built up a national data infrastructure around. Its clinical genomic medicine program right. So people out there are gonna be having it gene sequenced by private clinics and clinics will need the interface that data through the pipeline to the big center which holds the data and can run the efficient workflows to analyze it. And then you're gonna need to feed the relevant information back to the practitioners You know in real time maybe within twenty four hours or something of that sort and so from the clinical medicine perspective. It really is a service on the back end for the likes of an nci. It's enormous infrastructure it's a highly efficient performance Into play between the data sits and the compute that content around the analysis at scale. Because you literally have probably thousands of these things coming in each day That you gotta turn around so you can see that. While on the one hand we work with research sector in research endeavor which is more slightly more traditional mode on the other hand for the national benefit we actually need to provide a more of a service but Highly performance computer data service for the for the clinical sector. That's one example of how the moldable craciun will evolve and it certainly doesn't mean that we won't be doing in five years time what we do now for the research sector will continue to need to do that and do it always better but there are other things. The country needs that we can deliver if we can generate the sorts pan. Ships will independent I guess the other component of this is you asked the question. Jane will have what these polish work out. And that's exactly what the different stakeholders in the sector and it's section not just genomics for instance bigger than that because we feel so many different communities. But we're working this out in real time. Currently as we have conversations with alma stakeholders the government agencies universities With the tyco's is in the sector fellow infrastructure projects as well as the genomics medicine sector with government clearly because government has a huge role to in this And also with private investment who again to for example as you probably know there is. There is a significant move in the investment private investment sector to what's impact based investment where for example strengths superannuation funds right. I would like for reporting purposes. They would like to be seen that australian super And i should funds can't be utilized in a way which benefits australia. Broadly there are other sorts of investment fans who for example a targeting green cabin neutral investment prospects where they need to report to their investors that that money is being invested in responsible why which is carbon neutral and which supports green development of green technology and so these are all fit all ground for public private partnerships which can actually help the country move in a really positive direction. And i would say that. Where literally working models for this in real time so is going to be a lot of citing services that many industry and also in the private sector can look forward to. I have one last question. So so how. Big is the gowdy supercomputer. Oh okay. so it's it's around the actual machine itself that is in one of the slides of the talk. I would say it's about a roughly tennis court i would say o'reilly Not as big as you might think in effect its predecessor. The previous Supercomputer we had ryan was quite substantially larger. And so it's quite interesting that one of the one of the special things about the godley architecture is that it incorporates what we call direct liquid cooling which means that and that's provided by our who work with jitsu in providing the solution. Now what it means. Is you got copper pipes literally running over every every motherboard and we have water going in You know about maybe thirty thirty five degrees in coming out coming out the back in ten degrees hot. And then we pump it up to the root for natural cooling essentially so but that's a lot of copper and it's an awful lot of water which is flowing through the machine civil tons worth and so the machine while it significantly smaller is a lot heavier too and so we had to do a lot of reconstruction of the of the pot of our data center that holds it in order to be able to carry all white So it's a very interesting architecture. Much more efficient intensive electricity utilization is heavier. And it's mola and a lot more powerful. That's fascinating i think. Say in five or ten years time would be even smaller if analogy our mobile phones thinking that the nineties right indeed and and in five or ten years time we will have new new components in the machine that we don't have today would probably have a component which is quantum computing processes and that sorta timeframe something to forward to veer. Okay thank you professor. That was really great speaking to you about. Nci and i learned a lot. Thank you very much for your time thank you.

australia nci bureau of meteorology australian national university west australia nanno matera royal australian chemical inst fellow american is association institute of chemical engineer posey supercomputing center Giovanni australia max nichols gatty shawn smith Professor smith stockland
50 Taking a Vacation from Carbon Emissions

GrowthBusters

1:07:24 hr | 6 months ago

50 Taking a Vacation from Carbon Emissions

"Transportation. Is the biggest source of carbon emissions, and of course, tourism and business travel are a big part of that are their options for shrinking their carbon footprint. We'll start that conversation on this episode of the Growth Busters podcast God. Cau-. Really excited to be talking in this episode with Doctor Michael Hall Professor in the Department of Management Marketing and Entrepreneurship University of Canterbury in New Zealand. I've shortened the list of credentials which are really impressive Michael Co editor current issues in tourism associate editor of Tourism geographies editor of the contemporary geographies of Leisure Tourism and Mobility Book Series Co editor of the aspects of Tourism Book Series Editor of Route Ledge Studies of gastronomy food and drink I like the sound of that one. Co Editor of Rutledge critical studies tourism, business and management. Co. Author of the Book Tourism Public Transport and sustainable mobility. The guy clearly doesn't have any time to take off and actually be a tourist I don't think we'll have to talk about that. But Anyway, Mike thanks a lot for joining us for this fascinating entree into the subject of travel. Me Let's start with the big picture. Easy question. Really. What's The relevance of Travel and Tourism to sustainability was having an interesting kinda compensation in the middle of covid nineteen pandemic. Changing the whole game but in general, you'd get that travel and tourism contributes about eight percent to global emissions in a normal year. With that potentially actually being higher depending how you calculated you have, for example, the UN will tourism organisation. They would argue it's around five percent in really good independent studies done added Queensland and the states a couple of years ago they up. Eight percent if you also back to in what's called radiative forcing, which essentially think of the clouds you see when the planes go flying that it may even be up to ten twelve percents contribution. So it's like all these things. Depends, how you calculate in a liberal way, you work it. It's big and if tourism was the country is probably be the full biggest emissions something like that such pretty substantial. Now. Are you including business travel in this or excluding business travel being including everything into that? So it's not insignificant if we talked about transportation and general, that's huge. So much transportation is just all the crap that we insist on sending back and forth around the world and our over consumptive lifestyles It's an interesting one blow because at the same time, we kind get away from using transport. We can't get away from being mobile and there's I think really interesting tensions between how do you do that? Sustainably I think the trade off if we dealing with people in effect even dealing with goods. It's how five things go and how fast they got. I mean if you're looking for some bottom lines there, that's their key things to be thinking about how fast is it go have filed as gut and what trade offs can you actually have in doing that one of the really interesting things which could in some countries, Australia and New Zealand would be of those countries is that with the impact of climate? A lot of supplies to export or import have suddenly found the custody everything going up. Because often what was happening even things like? The Alley. Vegetables to salads which are being excellent example from New Zealand to Singapore now off. To Descend Day was typing up excess spices, apply illness they. There's all kinds of really interesting combinations in terms of how this stuff works. It's messy. would be the policy way describing this MRI. I'm guessing that most of the projections and predictions of the last few years are you know we might talk about them a little bit but they're all being adjusted now because covet is interrupting that, do you think that's going to be a long-term shift or do you think before long we'll be back on the truck we were on. That's a really interesting question one which myself another call. Of, at the moment. I think you have lots of people who interested in degrasse than. Sustainability. It could be transformative moment if only one of my optimistic moods on one of those people. However his the but in all of this, I'm not quite convinced. It's going to be the case because one of the things that we tend to see in situations like this is the hit on the economy. And depending on the world and you'll health systems welfare systems. People have to work. And many governments in order to a Maitland saying, okay. We have to get back to business and unfortunately businesses normal or in some cases even worse in terms of saying for example, we're going to help out the airlines but we're not gonNA have any conditions whatsoever in of how drain you become. And they're the controversies which are happening. So big sampled, we think of Sicily in Italy at the moment Sisley has a provincial government program, which essentially will pay half of your holiday. And other countries and destinations which are doing the same while you have some destinations saying we're GonNa try be more sustainable. You have others which are gonNA say race to the bottom we're GONNA be shaped. We just want people. I'm not really sure how some of those destinations which one would be more sustainable can match that. If you're looking at the employment dynamics, those sorts of thanks. So yeah. It is a really complex and messy situation. My feeling to be quite honest is that yes, the is going to be a hit to traveling tourism international travel and tourism for the next four years. But I have a really bad feeling at my welcome back to pretty much normal after that. I always amazed at the. Of capital and capitalism to rebound. And I think we're GONNA see that. Again I don't WanNa see that again but I think that's going to have not to be honest I. Actually think we're in danger of Almost hastening. The race to get to some tipping points that we don't WanNa get too because of the situation. I hate to be a naysayer. Really is the way I'm looking at it at the moment. Well I think the one thing I. This is probably a pretty small thing when you have gotten invitations to be a speaker at conferences and I'm assuming that was before this covid thing that you would frequently asked if you could speak from home or your office and not travel there and that they were frequently not too crazy about that idea but now obviously conferences are having to. Reinvent themselves and go online and. You know businesses are finding all kinds of great cost savings and some other advantages of staying off of the airplanes doing a lot more online. You don't think that that might be one sticky thing because it'll save so much money and nobody wants to get on an airplane anymore. So you know none of the traveling sales people WANNA fly every week I think it will stick to a bit only a bit and I think the problem that I see it is in terms of business travel. Is that sometimes getting on applying some waves on that commitment. And in some business coaches, you also had to sit down have a meal together, have a drink together and I. think that's very hot to get away from I think you can have conversations like this one online, but that almost times comes after the big problem is a business sense is that how do you build trust online? And that is the real challenge I think it can be done but I think business travel or even conference travel is ever going to be completely replaced. At times you do really have to try and make face to face now in sang that ideally want to be returned back to will before. But I think there are ways in which which. You can have more sustainable business travel practices other by frankly charging people travel, and as you paying the cost of their emissions in their pollution, which would be a good start but also saying of a bigger communication mix. So I, think that many businesses. Cambridge East that travel bills by doing online communication. But there's still going to be some degree of business travel and I think it's not just business. The one that has always fascinated me and the F. R. Travel visiting friends and relations diaster travel. You know the fact that you have family somewhere else and Because the world has become so much more global as it were the last forty, fifty years. So many of us have family friends, relations you know different parts of the world. It's one of those paradoxes I think because the more mobile you've become. The more mobile you need to continue to be to maintain those social relations and meet people you deal with family. So I think that's a real challenge and Hell we overcome that I. Think is really tough. I sometimes used to talk about mother guilt you know that notion to behind Thanksgiving or you had to be on the Christmas. That kind of thing. I think think it's true I. Mean My parents have no passed on but I think that's really true and it's why those times of the year a pig travel times or in some other coaches eastern you know that kind of thing and that's really hard to overcome i. Think of fine but if you do have to travel. To. Pay For it by sickly pay the real cost of travel I think those kinds of things are just really really hard to change may be able to change a little bit with people go traveling to. That would take time because you have people the holiday makers for example, you that with the industry focuses on the exotic and what I find fascinating is that when you look up travel data for the last twenty, thirty years is like long distance travel data people who can afford to they travel further. Each year and they tend to travel often. So you have a small bunch of people with. My but they have a hyper mobile lifestyle Neth, what they do some of its business people some of its leisure, and often that's tied in both business status in personal status I travel veran kind of thing. So you had that kind of thing and those kinds of practices just really really had to change in a lot of the research id that we have these kinds of conversations. I say that the stock was difficult to change isn't the stuff we we'd conscious about. It's a stop it's habit much defy consumption is habit and includes lots of travel and tourism we do without thinking. That's the stuff. It's really hard to change. And also what travel means to so many people across the world I don't travel much. I've never really been anywhere but I mean, I've met a number of people who have traveled from over Europe Australia all over the states and they love California, they love being here and I always ask them all. Where's your favorite place? You guys? Are you know traveling all? Around the world, where's your favorite place to go and you know most of them all say someplace in California, which has been good for me because I haven't been motivated to really leave. But at the same time I think travel for a lot of people. It's an opportunity to experience and learn about a different culture or Sihanouk place, and that is so hard to. Kind of envision a future where you're no longer able to do that and I know people who have given up travel and instead they engaged more with their communities and make an effort to experience different cultures in their community. You know we have Los Angeles. For example, you know we have Korea town, we have different communities and it's very diverse. So you could experience a whole number of different cultures in one location, but I guess in addition to that also students that are wanting to travel and experience a different country where they're doing their undergraduate or graduate studies. That has a lot of positive impacts as well. So. I would agree with that. What is really interesting with I'm not sure you really hectic. I'm the problem with that travel emissions in his impacts. Isn't sound much. Traveling Push Said's how often do you travel how you travel how you travel You can envisage taking more trips example, which a more local and having listen missions. At having less impact potentially I think it's how you can save an even some of that long distance almost slow travel particularly can go by ship implying, but you know if you had longer term travels that isn't necessarily as bad as taking lots of frequent jet flights. If you're in California fly down to New Zealand Australia. Do. The six months backpacking holiday all. Got Pick gripes or read what it Lots of people do come study. You're actually extending your emissions per day. You're in one sense potentially leading your impact especially the opposite as well would you can be doing so that kinda travel isn't necessarily the biggest problem the biggest problem the what Quebec last business tablets is the hype ball who so much. They're the biggest trouble people with their private jet plants. I think it's how you travel like it's really interesting in European amendment you're saying a real comeback, the overnight trains yet she'd do long distance train ride and you do as overnight sleeper, the sleeper trying to quality sleep of making a comeback and negative all that connectivity in Europe coast you need to have the railway lines in the companies in the regulations in place to enable that but clearly that's happening in Europe and also depends on what's being. So people I think for some people actually the opportunity to gallon either night's sleep train is actually sunny potentially it's what people are getting excited by I struggle sometimes about. The taunts truism I think something took backpacking that student Tourism Yama that is part of culture contact undestanding the world, and it can be relatively low emissions realtively. It's less people. Flying down to the Caribbean all flying to resort and what they're doing for their holiday is basically interchangeable been. Let's of the places that just being snowbirds kind of thing. That's the interesting challenge to me is that is the type of travel, which is more substitute -able now, even Ben Anoc necessarily stained don't travel but those on I tend to advocate as part of a transition because it will take time to do this. You should be paying your emissions. You should be covering the costs of travel and the real. Casa by environmental other impacts and that isn't really happening. It's done voluntary site unless you're dealing with a really narrow group of Eko to miss no genuine echo travelers you'll basically dealing with people who need to be paying more and of setting off sending everything automatically, we need to juice how much we travel or really consciously think about trampling with low emissions lemon the G. Travel can be done. But in some countries can do that better than others I mean having been to the states. I'm over in Oregon Gaga really good friends in Oregon getting around by train by public transport as its ruinous. Is Pain in the ass see any way I can describe it and it's awful. Yeah it is hard I teach him Europe and I do offset all to say that before I got. I go everywhere by train. I got all around Sweden by trying like Jimmy by Trent you can say that. If I'm in the states as really hard to do if not impossible Able to go down from Vancouver Down to climate full spit I can. Go out of that line using public transport as really high that is partly overruled equation about making travel tourism more sustainable you have to have that system in place and what I find really interesting is that some pats of the world parts of Scotland Finland other areas as well. It is actually the tourists which helped subsidize a public transport. If you think some more remote areas, the almonds of the west coast of. Scotland. For example, the pretty remote but people go there at the summit I k. so you got some traffic that can help subsidize that service to also go into for the local people, but let's kind of any services. So you can have a real win-win situations by using tourists to as you support your local public transport infrastructure so much the work I'm interested in is not advocating for tourism, but say, but sight. Hacker we use tourism and how can we use business to support a more sustainable community and say had to be create those win win type situations and I think padded that we need to say the complete picture of people's mobility. Had, people get the how they go what they go. There is and I think that is a really interesting issue for some locations. I mentioned the Caribbean earlier as suitable destination in some cases. But we have a reality with some on station. The Pacific in the Carribean announced way that becomes so high dependent on tourism. But economic wellbeing but those kinds of places how do we were able them transition? So it's not just the consumers that need transition. It's also the destinations and the locations they provide in thinking about most with Egypt, but being able to integrate the stuff together interesting comment to mate because. What we're having now it to my teaching doing Kobe nine it's the classic problem actually of being able to substantiate. Being online the face to face contact because the reality is yet you can't Groups but you have monuments win the system does whip it. Well, I got an ironically will living in countries which have binational standards pretty good networks etc. Imagine being in those countries NBA's locations. What can they do in to substitution the limits of substitute ability for some of these things obviously I'm not advocating that we don't try and substitute do but the technological and other barriers to doing it. Yeah. Interesting. You brought up something a minute ago that I thought might be an interesting segue to topic I definitely wanted to get into you talked about the concern for these. Economies that are really dependent on tourism for jobs and I'm not talking about Jackson Hole Wyoming. I'm talking about people in other countries and I know you've gotten into this a little bit. I'm a little bit perplexed about how Tourism and travel really relates to the UN sustainable development goals. You know the awesome locations which particularly some the Auden states which in reality do not have many economic development possibilities. And country's tourism. Is, potentially, still going to be part of the equation. But I think a case of not only going through what are the alternatives and in many cases the alternative maybe some form of fishing but has other issues attempt control over of the she writes etc.. But it's also about. How is local tourism designs may maybe you can have less people. But actually make a knife on them. I've always found this really interesting issue anyone uses the term ecotourism but when the time ecotourism was first developed back in the eighties and nineties. What it actually meant was limiting the number of people. To, elect -cation because they wanted to see something in the environment of Spacey's particular landscape. And being able to charge more therefore limiting the impact of tourism but still receiving economic benefits and that's kind of been lost. We really need to come back. And regained that for a lot of tourism locations particularly which at a fair distance from them main sauce markets because dead ones which are going to be most affected by any common chatting. In those kind of places what do you do? I think it's a case of trying to have a more premium product. But as padded that also trying as much as possible to try in what is in the accommodation of where people stay with local Jesus, what can be luckily supplied and what might enormous frustrations win looking at this kind of stuff is the amount of island states which do not support the unlucky fineness despondent amazing, and having a local produce actually available in the hotel I'm I've had the experience of being in Fiji or work stuff. Staying in a hotel and breakfast was essentially all supplied from Ustralia. because. That's what the Schick and get I walked down the ride a dateable down the road a five minute won't go to the local market and the this amazing local tropic of Rick Pacelle really cheap and I just want to find out what the hell doesn't hotel do that and many hotels alike like this. But if you convenient that supply chain element, maximize the benefits up truism you had which he may still have to have. Then, I think you can't envision economy never be completely away from tourism, but you can have a much more sustainable trues ministry the what you had before that is a root challenge for many of these countries and it's simple reasons it's because of background of people awaken the hotels and they connectivity is also because you often dealing with international chains and they have their particular way of thinking and also on a sometimes even asked the guests what they want if you going to say Jamaica the or somewhere like that, do you really what the same product as get? All, can you have something different the breakfast menu lunch menu. Best the kind of thing that real nitty gritty of trying to do with sustainability in travel and tourism it just really thinking through even the you're traveling internationally how you can still reinforced the local in certain ways and value the local. But that is something which is kind to do in high to get some businesses to think through. The temptation is I think we've sort of just naturally gravitated toward thinking about air travel because it seems like that's the big. Bogeyman in terms of climate impact but is it what are the various components of this subject area that you study? So much of tourism and travel what are the other components and what are the rough percentages of environmental impact? depends. Looking at but usually say. That including ready for images a bit missy you're looking at probably two to three percent fro aviation cruise ships quite smaller but cruise ships have a heck of a lot of local impact in terms of particular snow, other kinds of nasty things that come the cruise ship industry is trying to adapt, but it's like all these things it's very slight. And have the problem with the cruise ship industry in terms of international borders I mean, I'll make myself deeply unpopular by saying this but on a perpetual. Basis I tend to find most of the cruise lines much more scary than aviation in some ways because they have a wider range of impacts and I'm not letting aviation off the hook but I think the thing is with cruise ships that much more focused on particular locations, and they have a different type of environmental impact but it's still there is still a major issue. which needs to be deal with, but it's one of those things in terms of transitioning is one of the attempt is those locations I sometimes I do that the best form of tourism the best form of substandard with tourism may well be no tourism at all. And I think that probably true some places. But you still have this issue of hallowed. We provide employment how to generate employment how do we help ensure a good standard of living and that needs to be compatible Of the destination development equation, but it often isn't because often these things happen at a very, very piecemeal basis in terms of being able to respond to those kinds of things. I intended question to be more broad and on you know how you get there. In terms of the actual destination I think the combination side is really interesting in terms of measuring its impact one the things increasingly starting to sink but depends what pavilion in is much more focused on providing grain accommodation as much as possible in Sweden as hotel chain Nordic choice, which has been really interesting in terms of some of the initiatives as a number of other Scandinavian hotel chains in terms of local sourcing organics couple of years ago I was in not the choice hotel in Gothenburg in Sweden and up and down to the breakfast buffet and It was wonderful because you had stopped women t shirts sanctity please take what you need from the buffet. Don't waste food I gold. That was fantastic. Absolutely, and because you also like control how much food you're taking and it's not just you know somebody else's serving you. So maybe you don't finish everything that they serve you or they prepare behind the kitchen. So yeah buffet is a good way of monitoring how much you're consuming for sure is but I think the bus by you have to get people to be mindful of that consumption because it seems like a good deal it's like all you can eat if you think about it, it's like I'm the holiday on this I'm going pig out. Let's at your own risk because it's really not going to be a fun time afterwards. Probably not on it happens quite a lot and it's a case of being able to respond to that I mean it's interesting a colleague and I work on sustainable restaurants. Last be is and one of the really interesting things is looking at what can be done in terms of buffets next really common hotels. Okay. Well, Mexico, you have more local projects from Stat D have more free don't have some emphasis on meat and you can do that kind of stuff. But one thing that we've founded in doing research on that is the challenge isn't so much the property, the challenges also the ships and people who Beck of House. Has Their training. might sound silly but when they went through the training programs at college. Were they being taught about food sustainability with being told about how much water goes in producing baseball that kind of stuff if you really looking to be serious about sustainability in travel tourism and hospitality? We knows that like the restaurants, the biggest environmental is their supply chain a long way it's so huge way does that stuff come from an? I? Find that fascinating because we had the shows on the feed channel that kind of thing which Kinda give the image of the shift going down to the farmers market and buying in local I mean to be honest that's crap because most restaurant I'm not saying you have done that you go down to do that. But my time in the industry, it's a k. serve us the wholesaler. So therefore, hospitals in wholesalers Bush they'd Green Program. Do they purchase local. I mean California's kind of interesting because in terms of farmers markets is one of the best places in the world in terms of farmers market look. You local stuff but you need the house system to make it work, and this is the challenge at Smith easy to type one piece out like aviation or cruise ships or restaurant. But we need to ask how does it fit into the bigger picture of supply chain and how does that contribute ultimately to sustainability and they're the kind of questions we need to be asking and thinking about in the case of hotels with food come from and I know that make big sample February consultancy lake just what everyone this kind of stuff I mean I'm really passionate about local food in a bit aware I am I'm someone if he wants to eat likely try the cuisine but many tourists actually. Many. People they are food neo fight pick I do not want to try new things up straight to McDonald's or starbucks right absolutely however even in both cases the isn't necessarily a problem yet doesn't meet that romantic image but do those other suppliers if they was a biologically than a kate effect, the burger is still a Bergen it's exactly a local is still means that the potato Onion surprise. The mate all whatever kind of pick heading veggie burger it still came locally. Stupid. bejesus emissions reinforced the local and reinforce sustainability and I think that's kind of thinking we need to get is that I've been working to save you if a cloud along time now, and I get kind of frustrated that the focus is on eco tourism and on green tourism. Which is Them shouts about it. That's not the problem. The problem is all the other stuff that people do we used to work mass tourism that kind of stuff? That's the area. Windy the green. But it can be done in such a way. It's not necessarily hugely in people's faces it doesn't necessarily change too much of the experience that having. Just. WanNa. Go somewhere have fun and have a holiday but main posing questions to organizations at the big chains about the realities won't they do in terms of buying local and ring fullest locally keeping emissions Dan and will do in terms of having like offsetting programs. And that then becomes the challenge you have. So we're talking about greening tourism is all the low hanging fruit or all the heavy lifting even is it all at the industrial level system level or just the individual consumer have a significant role to play in this I think both have a role I think. And this is something which I tend to get precious about is that. A lot of focus on industry on what industry would do is they have more than happy to become more efficient because they can then get better earnings but the problem is, what's the rebound effect of that? Like if you actually become more efficient, what do you do with savings if you pass them onto the customer, doesn't mean that you have more customers. If you put it into something else way does that spend God? So efficiency is important. Because the rebound to fix come back and they take away in the lung turn your environmental savings. Yeah. That's a really tricky thing. Yeah. Yes. We went tricky thing Jevons Paradox. Jevons paradox around for such a long time, and I'm constantly amazed at the government incapacity to recognize it. Really. I'M NOT SAYING DUMP become more efficient because we should. I think. We need to do with the other side of the equation some cooler degrasse. Include Green Consumption Ana can't what we call it but it really is about having people thinking more about what they consume and being more conscious that consumption where they can be. and. That means having them think about the tradeoffs think about the real customer travel they purchase. We have the so called slow travel movement which I think is significant, which is. Guys likely. Get on the bus get on the train. Donna. But but the reality is just a small number of people in in percentage terms the majority of people. That's not what they're after. It's those people we need to reach and get them thinking and changing, and that's why. Up Settings out perfect but they are pat of the transition to green a travel in a greener economy and a generally green economy. But that means alliance or whoever it is in the tourism and travel industry actually begin. The Chad is the real environmental costs of what we consume. I'm many airlines doing that I mean the thing which has always scared the hell out of me, and in fact I usually put this as an extra assignment question that one of my classes, which is what would be the environmental impact, all the currently unspent amas around world because if you think about it, it's frightening. Yeah. But the reality is that money airlines the ammos program is one the most profitable parts of the business. Oil It's doing is making people can seem more. The percentage of airlines which actually allow you to use those ammos or anything like that to offset your emissions is really lie. To me, that's a bit of a win win but I don't think most airlines when do it simply because it's too profitable for them. The amount of airlines that make it easy to offset actually is very high. The percentage of airlines which actually have offsetting program it's not even half. If. It could say the international airline companies, it's not happening. and. The honest being put back onto the consumer, which is fine but it's not being made easy for the concealment offset and to me that's a major issue with his really hard to. because. It gets back to international legal conventions surrounding aviation and what can be charged for what copy chats. And tons of by nations. So for example, when the e you tried to introduce emissions tax on aviation several years ago there's a huge backlash from airlines in the states China new, Zealand as well, and in one sense it was I've been all kind of addictive was we also Naipaul some research that we've done about four years ago his colleagues Ni- woods out that the average cost to upset your emissions from A. Trip, and is all tourist trips international and domestic was summit like eleven bucks American and I. Think our international figure was something like I. Think it was just a thirty dollars, hip it's nothing but airlines are not willing to support having that put in place and that really is a challenge and obviously we have a situation a moment in which the airlines have being bailed out. and. Most countries not putting in green conditions on those bailouts course not going back to compensation. That's why I'm just thinking eventually it'll go back to business as usual. So you've talked about carbon offsets how big a fan are you know there's some controversy about whether they're really useful or not I always say that probably nothing. On I think the the transition obviously, you want people to travel fast and Saifi less but I think as of having people being conscious about the impact. I think it's valuable. I think that you can have some schemes which are very good and can help reduce emissions. So hosted the causing of the scheme is important, but they should be seen as pundit of transition the necessarily end in itself. But I think they should be part of the transition. The other things we're talking about today, there's a bundle of things out there that we should be using and they billeted application will change complacent place in situate- situation. But I think they have to be part of the equation at least for the next twenty thirty years because it gets back to the issue of. How do you believe your energy? Anyway so you had those kinds of questions but part of the transition I think that pretty important actually. Michael I wanted to ask I read an article awhile back about. Concept of carbon trading and I guess it kind of relates to offsetting emissions. Thought it was a pretty neat idea just how we can maybe give everybody said amount of travel emissions to use per year, for example, and if they exceed their allowed amount, maybe they purchase or trade with somebody else who has extra emissions if they don't drive or if they don't travel as much, just kind of curious to hear what you think about that I think obviously, it has you know benefits and this is I guess an alternative to just adding a carbon tax for all travellers because that would have negative impacts for. People who aren't able to afford to travel or pay that carbon tax so that would prevent them from seeing their families maybe even just once a year. So a carbon tax wouldn't negatively affect rich from flying but I guess I would fear something more of it affecting those unable to afford to travel. I think that's always the issue in terms of carbon taxes is that those? On low incomes have fixed them. That is a situation fortunately with any tax. So any regulation has that affect as what happens at the margins. Carbon trading pretty establishing terms of companies and businesses in. COBB and trading. The market does have a place in this on us some years ago I used to talk about. How these people example to have the Carbon credit card. As a way of transit individual carbon trading. Yeah. I think it's one of those things that could be done but it's like each of the things that we talk about there's also cost involved gin and that also has to be worked through. Of what the real cost of the rebound of fix everything that we talk about and what then works best, and it's usually going to be some kind of mixture admissions I think the individual allowance personally, I've always been quantity idea. Being able to implement in such a way. That doesn't have huge carbon costs of implementation. I think is GonNa be the trade off you have with that note I made. I think there's something in it. Fundamentally I think what we're doing with that a is. Not yet really dealing with the real issue which is just Consumptive lifestyles. Y- I think ultimately that's what it comes down to and not. Really. Paying for a real impact on this planet. That's the thing which maintains the my thing. I keep coming back to with frustration you know what is the lifestyle that we can afford to have without decimating Bata versity? Anymore without the landscape anymore that killing of spacey's anymore adding that is the hard question and I think that the reality is with current technologies we can't be so consumptive unfortunately that's the said, see you come up with now how been do we deal with that and I'll be quite honest I realized that issues with Texas in more ways than one but. I pollute pays principle I think? Can Be quite useful way of thinking through this and I know this. The opposition to this in many countries particularly fund the compensation, call? Industry. But why find remarkable is that the is also realization that regulation and the imposition of taxes can be extremely innovative because you have to work your way around them. And I find it fascinating looking at US elections coming up on the ideas behind a green new deal I'm in favor of even being proposed. But yeah, that's really sixty stuff there in terms of employment generation. And trying to create some win win situations especially now the impacts of covid nineteen on the economy and I realized that many people in some stick to an in the cabin sector. Many of the workers working in the sector I had several uncles were coalminers it's part of the identity and on I get that. But in terms of transitioning this, still a lot of blue collar jobs actually getting sustainable infrastructure in place. Getting. The railway lines back in place and having the working reopened some of the lines that used to be open for passenger traffic. There are a little more pleasant than. Yeah my father worked on the railway spears. He led the railways that was his job, and so that kind of employment is what a green new deal generate. and. It would enable a sustainable face out of call. The cabin was still generating the quality jobs. And jobs people can be proud and to me some of the opposition just looking despair I think many of the work is in those sectors of partly being misled. By some of the don't want to change on some of this stuff, I be thinking of at the moment is about how do we get capital to change because that's a problem we have the more ready technical at many of the behavioral solutions or Oscillations responses to the problem we have we have we can do it now we can become much more sustainable very quickly. The problem is how to do the problem is capital and industry not. Doors? To me that's the big issue we face and that gets back to unfortunately hardcore politics. GETS BACK TO. Horrifying lobbying. Of politicians and could be talking any country picking on the states at all. But. It's those kinds of issues. And Work is in effect being misled and how to ransom by ladd businesses who don't want to give up the privileges that have had off and another way they don't want to adapt and change. Some of the coal businesses, the biggest dinosaurs this panic is held, they find themselves, they find themselves as being in the business of oil or call or cabin not being energy companies. And I think if they refrained themselves differently as being anti companies, the solutions that come up with may well be very different. After the life of me I do not understand why they do not do that because I think if he's thinking long term business, it's gotta be the way to go the way of becoming more sustainable and contribute to a more. Sustainable stand up on my building. But it is a hell of a challenge. So cheerful. No but you know what I know. Dave. Also appreciate your candidness about these issues. You're not sugar coating any of it, and that's really what we need. We need more people to get real with us and tell us what the problems are and you know the silver lining to everything that you're saying is that we already have the solutions they're here and I guess my question is even if we did get our act together, what do you have to say about population growth? was coming. Yeah. That is the proverbial twist in the tale. It isn't obviously the size of the population how it consumes is important. But if you keep having population growth continuing as has been, then you've got to be back to square one eventually. So I think there has to be ways of trying to. Limit Population, and the limitless sounds wrong to me but when women In particular have. To set contraception and had choice in the contraception and have the received. A liberal education, a good education. We know that they will often change the homeless children but that also goes hand in hand with what's the employment context cultural context. It's interesting. I think you can have when the conditions of ride I transitioned to populations. But the issue is our economy is in to it I. Mean if we have richly honest our economy survive some population growth, the economy as it usually designed survives on an increasing population of consumers we have to change. The nature of capitalism net for anyone starts accused me of saying the MIC is not a good thing. I'm not saying I think is a real role for immaculate, but it's also what surrounds it and that becomes really important. So therefore. Things like having livable wage and heavy a welfare system which supplies public health benefits is also of the sustainable transition equation and a having a lower rate of population growth all as she population decline. So you moved to a sustainable population level, but that requires infrastructure being placed to neighbor that it's over a well the someone to say, you should have less children in isolation. To do that because you did the other things to go with that to enable people to be able to make that positive choice. That requires the rest of the system being there and lots of countries do not prioritize that and the problem we've had. Over. The last thing is this Sudan market driven neoliberalism with a small role for the state. I can't even use the words I want to describe in polite company. In terms of what absolute crap it is into MD of. The distribution of benefits to a wide number of people if we're looking for that connection between. Benefits more broadly always had over the last few years is increasing concentration of growth among small number of people who didn't use their wealth to political system and you know some people say what the hell does this have to do with sustainability in tourism it has everything to do with it because it's a system. And List as individual consumers, son much depends on our capacity the choice. And like in Class I, use myself as an example, Alexander rural property outside of the city where I teach they used to be public transport. Here's a few years ago they got rid of it. I cannot get public transport I can't get to would I have to move where I live or? Come up with plan B, it's a system. If you want to have a sustainable transition from ability, it's the system. Why is the system the way easing in terms that public transport vision? As. One of the reasons why I'm so interested in tourism because. In thinking of ways I how do we create win win here? So you have the likeness appellative cities saying a we kind of vote to do this and in the navy, them will actually allegra tourists would use it up, cise it in effect. Okay. You can create winds and developed that public transport infrastructure that people can use and especially. People on low incomes came potentially use and they can be my belt they could be sustainable, but you need to have real systems thinking in terms of being have to do that in terms of urban designs transport design. How is the local economy structured? And fundamentally in terms of what we're talking cabal. Look? We have to do with the system if we want a sustainable future. We have to deal with the system. Not Ways around it we cannot avoid it. We just cannot go on with peace bureau responses. On, I think the notion of a green new deal is. Potentially five think of not just other countries would think about the same thing. Can Be part of that transition, but it names having the political will. To include all parts of the economy in it. To Stat, Stephen the economy in that transition and. Advocating full others advocate for doesn't love your quality of life. It. Improves it. But it means having a more inclusive economy which is geared towards sustainability Jimmy what sustainability And that's what we don't have now in so many countries. Hence my frustration. Michael Hall we so appreciate the depth and breadth of your knowledge. The downside of this is that I think we're gonNA need about another nine episodes to fully mind that. There's just so much that we haven't gotten into, but I think I'm GONNA have to. Be The bad cop and say we should stop for this episode and reconvene soon to get into other matters anytime you could for that Erica to definitely. Okay. That was probably those good wrap up as you could give. But if there's any final thought that you'd like to leave our listeners with will definitely give you the last word. Yet I think things have been those things have been talking about I use useful things to do. But fundamentally, we've got to do with the system and the structure unless we deal with that way. To use the would doomed is negative but I, think this making the problem. West. I think is what I find say fustrating is that it doesn't need to be like this is not radical. It is medicos been done before I think is just able to respond in such a way that we've got a problem. We've got the capacity to solve it. We need to change something structure. What it will mean is some people will be bid off. I think that's a good thing and I think it's economically sensible especially in response to cope with nineteen. The trying to be more sustainable business practices and obviously it's good for the planet. On. That America is dealing with this problem at the moment in terms of the Coun- election is how do we achieve this and in particular? How do we convince? People. Who the various reasons do not want to go down that path how do we take them on the journey? And Mike Lynch part of the coalition, we need to have a more sustainable future and I think that's the real challenge. Well I've got the solution to that. So you'll be glad to hear that we just need to pack up the United States everybody just send them on eco-tourism trip to the planet Xenon, and then the world will have a chance. Me and. So we've got this segment at the end where it's called honey I shrunk my footprint and we share something we do that we think is just no worthy or Corky or entertaining that we're really proud of that. We do to shrink our footprint and sometimes we try to really surprise each other with something. The other people wouldn't have thought of sometimes it's really obvious no rules we each share one thing that we have done recently or that we kind of incorporated in to our lives to be a better citizen, of planet Earth. And I'll start to give you a good example I am. A. Religious Zealot when it comes to bottled water, I absolutely refuse to ever consume water out of a single use plastic bottle that got shipped halfway around the world and when you travel in when you think about it, those bottles are constantly being pushed out you you know and even on the airplanes half the time more than half the time the is being poured out of plastic bottles where that water didn't come out of the TAP. When you get to local transportation, the first thing they do is hand you a bottle of water you'll get into your hotel room. There's a couple of bottles of water on the desk and there's everything to support and encourage you to keep on drinking those bottles of water, and of course, there's some places in the world where you probably better drink the water out of those bottles rather than the local tap water. I just never go anywhere without my reusable water bottle and it goes double when I'm going on a trip because that way I don't have to accept that bottled water I have a little bit of a choice about where the water comes from that goes into that bottle and I'm not constantly. Throwing away or recycling, hoping to recycle plastic bottles. That's my footprint shrinking thing. Awesome. I want to go next urged I go well, I linked to the MIC on the weekend and I bought myself the secondhand jumpers I try and reuse recycle as much as possible one of the things I do. We have a small farm. So we try and grey as much as we possibly can cells. It's kind of interesting because it also means I get to kill guard and it's a tricky one I know people don't necessarily like the idea but I know. We had with know where it comes from I mean to me that something which is really important. The. May. In terms of being cut down, my emissions is being able to have as much as what we can grow as possible but I tend to be able to just saying zillah about this reverend gut off really really wanting to eat local no matter what it is. Because I think it's an important pod of learning about a place. And Tokens local people. So I usually head for the newest market wherever I got. I. Headed for the market. Well that takes some guts but you definitely get rewarded. But you said you go to the market and pick up a couple of jumpers. What's a jumper? A jumper. I saw it. Took a bathing costumes because there's they costumes are they? All Bay this what are they jump is like a pullover sweater. Accents. Oh. Okay. Yes. I am doesn't make sense to call a jumper. Well it comes from a woolly jumper so that And I assume look, I. Comes from the fact that she jumped I have no idea. I had no idea. Yeah. So yeah, I'm putting myself because I always trying especially these days I try and buy stuff which is Eddie clothes wise. The naive funded you in the states New Zealand now it's really hard challenge to find something has been locally made. Eggs otherwise imported in China. India. Same thing terror. Well, you're in New Zealand, but our listeners may have figured it out if they hadn't Aussie and actually Kiwis Aussies have the most amazing slang and funniest names for everything I'm surprised we haven't had more laughs about that. During this conversation, I've been to be good at ease my international, English. Alright America you're up. All right. So by the time, this episode is published I will be going on two months living car-free in California, which amazing as impressive ray crate I think. It's kind of a big deal. You know the motivation behind selling my car back in. June was to afford to live on a graduate student budget and thanks to Kobe I really don't have to drive. Anywhere anymore. So it's kind of Nice. It's definitely working for me. If I have to go to a market, I have roommates that can take me to the market or I could always uber if you know there's no one here but it's been really working out. Great. So I'm a little proud of myself where to go and then southern California Knowle's I now, right? Yeah they've got streets there. So wide that takes about three days to cross the street. So it's just not designed for pedestrians. I'm at least four miles away from the nearest anything. That is impressive. Actually reminds me of the story years ago I was in Sheffield in the. And they were putting in a new light rail system like a tramline. And I took a picture astounded they were digging up the right. And what would they digging up? They were digging up the tramlines that were there from fifty years earlier which they had just trauma to pitch over. and. It's like I sometimes think I grew up in A. Household as a kid and I sometimes think over is in some ways back to what we used to. Write write some ways. You have some of the cast get a bike. Thirty go. And we never used anything of it. I Dunno I. Just One of those things are always a strikes me event about how? Heavy grew up across seven. I was a kid you know didn't even have a fine that poll in a findings would. BE NOVEL SHOWING MY AGE We didn't have a car use a book. Guy By a bus and that was the GNOME I kinda think we're in a period of huge consumptive mobility will something. which we kind of like the to get out of Tim's about thinking maybe it's a temporary aberration maybe I'm just being hopeful no I love that you said that because it's very true Michael you really don't know what is possible. You really don't know what you're capable of doing until you take it away and you could apply that concept to anything diet comes to mind if you are trying to. Give up on the sweets data. I'm talking to you mom talking to you too. If you're trying to those sweets like take out all of us sugar from the House you think it's going to be hard. We're looking at it as a major sacrifice and you know a lost to your happiness, but it's GonNa, be better. You're more than capable of living without everything that you think you need to. have in your life on a daily basis Yeah. The car I didn't think I would be able to do it I thought Gosh. I'm going to give us like a week and this is not going to be possible for me I. Live In. So cal but honestly it's been great. I have zero motivation to even purchase a car at this point I don't know if I ever will even if it's electric. Very. Cool. All right. Next you'll have to move to the farm. Right. Michael thanks again so much such really been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much Michael. Things again told against some time. That was doctor Michael Hall professor in the Department of Management Marketing and Entrepreneurship at University of Canterbury in new, Zealand what a conversation. What a very pleasant and really thoughtful fellow I really enjoyed fame. I mean when we reached out to him, I knew he would be the perfect fellow for this episode but blew my mind. Yeah. But because our mobility is such a huge part of our carbon footprint, I really think there's a lot of fertile ground yet for us to cover. Would you agree I liked? So we've agreed that we're going to do at least two more episodes just about greening. The way we get around and that's not counting any that we might dream up to bring Doctor Hall Beck. I think that would be a good idea. We seem to stop at a really good place in the conversation, but it sounds like he has a lot of other ideas that we can talk about I brought up population, which we don't normally do on this podcast but I really appreciate Michael for sharing what he thinks about it and also just kind of being on the same page with us about how our individual actions really do make an impact but that's not the whole the whole Enchilada it's not the whole enchilada. Systemic changes also important, and we also need to have resources in place and things that make it possible to empower people to make these smarter choices. So things like healthcare and education and. Were quality in. The world. Yeah I got kind of a kick out of the fact that he was expecting to be asked about population because we do bring it up from time to time. So he was ready for that and interestingly Eric. I've been doing a ton of research for the next. Travel episode and just discovered that there are people who are doing studies and really serious data analysis and they're starting to distinguish between lifestyle actions and the actions of the system. FERENCI meeting between them and I think the only good can come from that because at least they're acknowledging that you know there are some things that we can do, and of course, I'm always preach that. One of the only ways we have in our hands easily change the system is to really vote with our pocketbooks and be a customer of the good people out there doing the right thing and stop being a customer of the people out there who are destroying the planet, right? Yeah. That's a really great one and I don't think we talked enough about that with Michael but I'm really glad that you brought that up. So we'll definitely have some things to bring him back for you know we could do an episode of Day. I really like his idea about getting tourist subsidize public transportation. Yeah. We definitely need something like that here in California where I'm making it work without a car, but that's not the majority of people here I get looks on the street when I'm walking for five miles going to the market. It's just not the norm. A bicycle. Yeah I think the kind of work he does makes him come up with these markets solutions, which I think are pretty cool and there was one other thing he mentioned that I made a mental note about and that was he said that we're in an era of consumptive mobility. So we need to move into the next era of non consumptive mobility somehow yeah he's not saying there's not a market, there's a market, it's just capitalism that's really destroying us and there's limits, but we can design market interventions to steer the market and better directions right and to better support the citizens through they. All right. Well, that wraps up. Fine. Edition. Of Growth Busters. Erica areas. Thank you so much for being a part of this. It's always great to have your sense of humor, your perspective and you find us great guests. So thanks for that. Thank you. If you like what you've heard and you haven't been listening to every episode, you can find many more episodes of the growth busters podcast at growth busters. Dot Org can search growth busters on any podcast up and find us. You can tell most smart speakers to play the growth busters podcast and you'll get us. So we encourage you to subscribe. We encourage you to tell your friends about it because we need to. Inspire everyone around the world to live more sustainably. America areas reminding you that friends don't let friends miss the real story on sustainable living. Thanks so much for listening. To mountains and streams. But Not. Buster. Don't want us. The cost up and they think bigger is better the coughed of. Calling God. I.

New Zealand California Caribbean UN Book Tourism Public Transport Sweden Europe Mike Lynch US Australia Tourism geographies editor Spacey F. R. Travel Editor Jimmy
Soraya M Lane  Women At War

The Joys Of Binge Reading: The Best in Mystery, Romance and Historicals

37:07 min | 2 years ago

Soraya M Lane Women At War

"Welcome to the joys of binge raiding the show for anyone who got to the end of the great book, and wanted to read the Nixon stolen, we interview successful series, authors, and recommend the beast mystery suspense, Storrow and romance series. So you'll never be without a book. You can't put down. You find the show notes a free book and lots more information at the joys of binge reading dot com and now is Iran nine heads. An impressive Beck list and contemporary manse more than thirty books. Hey, that she's hitting the kindle based salad chats with her nice recent books World War, Two fiction centered on women's lives. I I'm your host Ginny Huila and today ceramics about the road to becoming a successful international author and why she sought apologizing for treatment writing as a business before we get to Seraya just a reminder shown arts this bench rating side can be found on the website. The joys of binge reading dot com. That's where you find links to psoriasis books and website as well as details about how to subscribe to the podcast, so you don't miss future. Weep, asides. And if you like what you hear please subscribe, and Lieber of you, so others will find us true. Now, here's Seraya. Hello, Bassora and welcome to the show. It's great to have you with us. It's wonderful to be here. Thank you. Asking me beginning at the beginning. Was there a what's upon a time moment? When you decided that you wanted to write fiction and is so was said in a sort of casualties for it. Look, I don't know if they was a specific headless for I've always been a huge Rada, and I've, I've probably been a writer on my life really for when I sort of was I at school and came up with these wonderful stories that I used to share with my teaches. So, I think I've just always enjoyed writing and always loved rating. And I think sometimes if you're a very Kane. Raider. The Knicks steep often is to try and write something yourself and sorry, I, I started really found lie. I found my way rising again, when I was at university, and just thought, you know, I actually want to do this. I won't to say my books on the shelf with my name on there. And, and I just sort of started and went from there ain't tasted while you've now got an extremely impressive backlist of contemporary, romance. Hell, have you actually been writing? They're doing writing. Pretty solidly sits university. I have it's itchy on haven't thought about how many years, actually, so I started writing quite seriously. She rushing through fulling novel when I was at university, I was probably around nineteen twenty and it took me two years throughout the first book. So I hit been writing for a long time. I sold when I was a so my first book when I was pregnant with my first child knows twenty seven saw a happy numb I had been writing for a little while. Now, I guess I've been published for about nine years fantastic. So you've now got a really impressive. Checklist of contemporary, romance nearly thirty books. I countered on your website. And we'll talk about that contain pre romance, so the later but the most recent books abridging out into historical fiction, and they've been doing particularly well, why of war end the Spitfire girls have been Amazon chart, charters end kanobi sell us now. They would to historical fiction. Tell us why you made that change. All look at with. It's something that sort of came about organically in the end. I mean I still love writing contemporary meant, but I actually went back to university ended an EMMY Faso a master of finance in creative writing at the university of Canterbury end. I, I went back the need to challenge myself in right something different in his idea for historical will to story for quite some time. And I thought, you know, this, this is the chance, this is the time for me to to really challenge myself in writes, something different. So that's how it started. And by chance that ended up being. Be seller. The novel, I ROY during Miami Fe, and it's really just gone from there and it's been just so exciting seeing those books do. Well, and, and yet sing wives of war on the top twenty Amazon shots. Lewis was just probably one of the most exciting moments of my career to be, honest ES that can imagine the but yes to the contain pyramid says, well, you saw him I am on. So I'm still rising contemporary, ROY Mentz for Samaritans who are division of MacMillan publishing in New York. And yes. Oh, I still do. Right. The contemporary. It's not not so much now and I do miss it too. But I'm really enjoying writing historical fiction, and I guess it's a it's quite a challenge. It's been very different. Starting out in a new genre in funding my way. But I really enjoying it NASO plays with the direction we're going in is, and why would would too. I think the food idea head was seized at the end of world. War, two, it was actually the goal the wool broad club in and it was later, rebranded by Amazon is void of the hat. And after that wanted, well might you to see to me, you know, we'll, let's do another World War Two story that was fantastic. And sorry really went from there in the books of Saul. Well, and we've had great feedback. So it's just been a natural fit really to keep rising during that time period. Fantastic. Now the ones that I've seen each of them focuses on three quite different front women, and they come from different backgrounds and their experiences being throwing together in war main that their lives become interwoven, and I just wondered if there was something about the number three that head particular pill, either readers or for you, as a rioter short will actually the first book that I mentioned before voyage of the hot that has full mind women's, and I wrote that, while the realize how hard it was to have four main characters and into. Full stories like that. So I actually ended up for the next story I decided to do, just three main characters and just felt like a really natural balance for me. There was enough going on enough conflict having those three characters in it didn't feel too onerous trying to balance them. I found it quite will much easier than doing full. So I keep going with having three main woman in novels at the lightest one of it. She got coming out in July is the girls of PO Harba and net story he did start with with women in that story. So it's a wee bit different in that it does start with full woman in one of them is putting quite a difficult position in may or may not make it to the end of the story. No spoilers spoiler. That's right. Oh, that sounds fabulous actually. Yeah. On a love the whole thing around Pearl Harbor. So that really got my interest. It was great to write. It was a really great story, actually. Yes. Fantastic. If we mentioned, you also a very experienced contemporary romance will end. You've written quite a few cowboy romance, a state in my hand rotate this. And I wondered I I'm just in war of somebody who can write romances seat in Montana, or take because it seems such a big jump from New Zealand. So I just wanted to head, you actually had the experience of living a miracle or how did that come apart about? It's a good question. You know early on my career when I was writing romance, I was told rot your wrongly that Americans like reading about other Americans in America. And I guess it was something my to me as well in sorry, I guess, those stories I just started thinking sort of will widely up always approached my writing from very business focused on place, and just realized that, that was the biggest audience for me and I needed to really appeal to American raiders. And I know now a lot of Americans love reading about New Zealand. But when I was first, starting up, it was American romances seem to be doing beta. I'm up huge holes lover in always orange in ridden horses, and we still have horses. So for me writing about Cowboys, I guess. I felt I could be authentic into GMs of describing what they were doing on horseback, and the writing, and being around who says, which was really important for the stories and then also I do have an American agent, and I had an American editor as well. So, I was I to draw on on, like his if I needed anything to be Steve in the right direction with Americanisms or anything like this. I, I did hit those to appease of is with my agent in Asia, and it was a it was a great moment. We might agency to me that I was the least curious and in my stories, and she was having to correct so many things, so that sort of how it came about really that fantastic has a New Zealand writer tissue gate, American agent us. Well that was an easy. I can tell you, I think, at sometimes hotted to get an agent than it is to get an Eva, and I actually am so I've always been involved with the romance writers of New Zealand organization, which a pretty incredible bunch of woman to be honest, and I had been going to conferences, they have an annual conference every year and they have aged. And his from America and the UK coming out the and I enter the contest had been pitching to agents foot probably three four five years, constantly, querying them in dumb, in trying to get them to read my work, but I happened to enter a contest, which was for the first three chapters of romance novel and I I won the contest end. The will the I won a pitch with the agent at who was coming out, who was Laura Bradford, who's my agent, stole to this day, and she, she plays me. I in that context as well and cited the who was writing, and I ended up signing with it ident- in selling that I'm all I always encourage new also um, you know, emerging writers to intercontinental bright about putting the workout there, because especially if there is a fantastic had judge at the end of it, you know, it is the most amazing way too short track that process in heavy work rid, by it'll all agent or perhaps boys. So that was fantastic. Mayon I she saw. So I met my agent at the. Conference in Oakland as she was from San Diego end way. We just clicked to end. She liked my work, and we sign sign with within that was nine years ago, we've hit a fantastic relationship Iverson's. That's a great story. You sat as if you've really come through the track of statin out with Millicent burn because you did navy seals romances as well Jay, I did, and then graduating from bed, further and further along. So you would have seen some huge changes in publishing that time as well. All just enormous changes amd, particularly within the romance genre is. Well, I mean I know publishing his changed in America, particularly his China dramatically owners with many publishing houses, closing down, and, you know, apex taking off an imprint books, not selling so well anymore. And I've also just saying that the, the remnants market became quite situated, there was just so many somebody else's, whether it was self publishing through three publishing houses. Just saw the market was sore cetirizine, which is one of the reasons I was quite came to branch out into historical fiction, and I do think that the it's constantly changing, particularly the self publishing market that I personally feel that might years with Milton burn fantastic, my editors, they were amazing. They helped taught me to write so tightly and, and helped me with plotting and characterization. So, and it was it was a great apprenticeship, really coming through. I think I wrote fourteen books for them in total, and we should hits mention that you have very slightly different name that to right on the you'll historical sue. Right. Is suray 'em lane? And then it's right romance. You'll just suray Elaine is their reason for that to France use while I I'd always risen is threat line end in win after my first historical fiction book came out and Masan who my publisher Amazon publishing might you to the two main stayed. We. Think we need to just do a slight variation of the name just simply to make it clear that the Seraya inline brand is, is slightly different to the romances you right force in Israel line. So it's just a very small difference there. But my, my Stoorikhel fiction appeals to a completely different market, and I don't have a little crossover. My contemporary romances of a very much I the cowboy oil soldier Roman says that very American in my store. cO fiction is, I think, as you mentioned, before I normally have three women, it's, it's very much women's fiction as opposed to romance into a send that you have very much crossover, that, that is interesting. I was wondering about way to ship sexually end with you also notice to difference between using on the strain in rita's end American readers dreams of what they respond to sure. I think I mean up until recently minute Zealand. Australian, raiders ship full my historical fiction, which is what I'm mainly focusing on now. I haven't really. That much feedback. Whereas because my biggest markets are really the US and the UK, and I do get a huge amount of Rada emails and messages on social media from US-based and UK raiders. It's been really fantastic. Seeing you deal in library, stocking, stalking my books in having that feedback from for more New Zealanders, which has been great. I think there are also a lot more Kiwis Australians buying books on Amazon in, in reading the kindle visions, I don't know if this necessarily much different than fade BAC I do get some very upset. You know, UK raiders telling me that they don't like the American English all vice versa in it. Something out of my control that might you to republish takes the lead on. But I think in general, I think most raiders in with Canada America strategy or New Zealand are looking for a similar type of raid, you know, they like those stories that are really go deep with the characters and in just a exciting raid that they can escape into issue. When we talked before we came online, you mentioned to me that ironically, although you would be one of UCLA must have authors in this genre. You book that really available in your home country either so north note, that's just because you've got an international publisher set, why look suppose are in a pro becomes down to different distribution as well. I think it is on the one hand, it is quite nice to not be known in your home country, and it's fantastic just being having such big raider ships in the US in the UK. But at the same time, it would it would be lovely to see more people here being I was reading my books or, you know, saying my books on bookshelves in what calls in piper. Plus, that would just be fantastic. I do. Sometimes I find that quite hard not seeing my paperbacks on the shelves here. But I think slowly that is changing. I have another friend who writes completely different genres. And, you know, for a while there, she was so wildly popular in America, and no in New Zealand United, but it's been really nice saying her book start on the shelves in New Zealand now in quite rightly soy, just seeing how well done he told but no, it is. It's interesting. Just that, that different. But I think it probably does come down to distribution. They just isn't it? I mean the books are available at booksellers here, but probably the may not be as, as we're of them. Yeah. Yeah. And also a lot of the New Zealand companies now I end the operated from straighter. They yet makes it just one step further removed as well. Absolately. Yeah. So what kinds of things have you nauseous, Jim trims of Rada? Taste and preference on this period of Ryan say anything that comes to mind. Look, I think that I mean when I started out writing historical fiction, and that particularly the will to Jonah, you know, for while the no-one publishes, helping bond will not fiction. They certainly it's certainly wasn't that popular, and in suddenly, the journal took off, again, I think it's quite interesting because it can be hot. Breaking writing something that, just simply isn't popular at the moment, and it's interesting, just seeing how you know, it's a real cycle of suit generous being popular and then falling off slightly, and something else, taking over. So I certainly notice now there is a huge amount of, of Wilbur to fiction in particular, being published within the historical fiction genre. And I think romance, I mean that still so strong. But as I said, earlier, the market really is situated there, so many, so many authors writing romance. So it's hard to stand out in that market. But I think that the biggest change I've noticed is, is simply the China. Self publishing. So when I started out self publishing almost a duty would, you know, it was sort of what you did if absoulutely you know, if, if everyone else had closed doors in your face in it certainly wasn't something that many people talked about, and then that really changed and self publishing. A very valid why to get you material now. So that's probably the biggest impact on the market price points for kindle e books. In other apex general have probably been pushed down because of that some of the big five publishers in New York, still trying to get you know, perhaps twelve ninety nine for an e book of vision in the US, and we're a self publishing also what have it book out to ninety nine. So I've seen a real change in price points in the number of ulcers putting the material at the end. So just in that self publishing market and e books as well. I mean, able have just taken off I probably sell ninety I think the last assistance I read a head ninety three percent of my CEOs kindle e books. So it's know makes up a huge part of my my career my income. Now is selling books. And gave the Hispanic but of a dip in author, incomes, as a result of this change that, because the semi self publishable who just wanted to price books, so they can just get them in front of redesign is short meta difference to the whole match. I think it has definitely made a difference to the market, and there are some publishes who've either started up or changed the way they operate. I'm very fortunate to be published by Amazon publishing. You know, I always think of legislative salute marketing machine and they really do hit the finger posts. So my books are priced on. I think I'm at four ninety nine now in America full, my historical fiction, titles, the earlier ones with three ninety nine and very much aware of, of price points in in, where you need to price in the market to, you know, I mean you don't to underpriced but you also don't want to be so expensive that someone's not going to click on your books, and by them, and my books are sitting on sale at various times, of kindle daily deal was or kindle monthly deals for ninety nine cents or one nineteen. Nine so I think it's just a matter of making the market work your end the publishers that have really jumped on board with that with the books. I think still doing well. And those are most likely still still earning. Good money from those sales. But yeah, it can certainly be tough if you books on price correctly. Sure. Yet tuning to your wider career just talking a little bit beyond the actual books. You'll the mammoth three boys, living on a small famine New Zealand wonder you could tell us a little bit about your life before you got into writing and also win. You're not writing now. Sure it seems the longtime ago life before I thank you beat them, yet pretty mice to allow, I haven't I have end, you know, I think I'm probably different to some of the other authors that I know, well, a lot of his come to this lighter in life or they may come to writing. You know, enough got small children, or they're taking a break from the career for some reason, and I think that I feel really fortunate that I she start. Had rising before I really hit another career such. So I was so determined to be a writer, and I think I've always just hit that determination that I was just going to keep going, and I wasn't going to give up, and I feel fortunate that I did sell to an initial publisher I was able to make a career of writing. So I actually I graduated with a law degree beckon I can't even think what year was I went to university at she is sixteen. So I skipped what was the sinful Mia in win strike. The sixteenth university ended law. So I graduated when I was twenty and I suddenly hit the moment all my gosh, I don't really want to be a lawyer. And so I ended up going into I was a freelance writer for some years in. So I was able to work for magazines in different publications during the day in from home, in squeezing rising, and I wrote a lot of time until I sold. So I wrote even books actually Stephen fooling manuscripts before. So my first title so, yes. So I guess I don't really remember too much about life before rising. Of always Bain rising, always trying to get published in, in suddenly that amazing phone call or Email happens. And, and you find out someone's going to publish your book, so that was that was fantastic. I do vividly Mahad. It was when I saw my first book, I was pregnant with a son McKinsey, and I will I had a newborn, I hit a two to, to book contract, having to write the books on that contract and I hit my day job and I always still working when I was in labor. I was working the hospital. I just I mean I look back now and I just, you know, I'm in the woods, I was putting out was incredible. I was just constantly writing. So I feel very grateful now to only have one job, which is writing fiction, and then obviously yet it's busy having the two boys. I've got mic in hunter, and I ate and five so that both SCO now I've had incredible help from my mom, who just, you know, everything she was with, it was holding newborns during the day, who wouldn't sleep. So I could ride. You know, she was he every day helping me and I'm so grateful for that, that family supports been amazing. But yeah, I guess we I'm not rising. You know, every mother knows what it's like it's a constant juggle between work and family. I don't team to waking anymore, and they have to we've got we've got two three lovely ponies here, actually ones, but small for the boys now. But we love getting out with the horses on the weekend. We've got a big crazy energy dole. Who drives a soulmate, who we have to exercise constantly and. Yeah. We just love hanging out together being home. We're pretty tight. Knit family to be honest. It's amazing. It impresses me that you did see him books before. He's you found an agent of takes real grit. And, and I'm sure that some of those probably are even with a little bit of extra would publishable. Have you ever been tipped to go back and put them out there? Do you know I think sometimes rewriting hotter than rising? I just have, and I know the first few were not worthy of publication. The others may have some merit. But unless you actually a writer, I don't understand they the energy and effort that goes into rising an entire novel. And in the crushing feeling when nobody's interested in publishing it and just putting it down in pulling yourself up off the floor in starting the next book, and I think on your own another Risa can probably understand, you know, the, the emotions inhabit 'as, but I was just so determined that I was going to be published, and I didn't want to just have one book published. I wanted a career is is also end was just, you know, I guess I just didn't wanna give up in I am you know, oversee, what got me through because I just didn't want to, to give up at all. Yeah. That fantastic is this league. Very naturally, onto the other favorite question that I like to ask there is, is the one thing you're right? Career move Nelia. That's the secret to your success. I think. Your case. It's she had through a nation as nurse on look at absolutely is. And it's just that determination never giving up. And I think also just entombs of my outlook on my career. I very much think of it as a career, it's a business for me. I'm very focused on net. Not only do I need the income from writing. It's I mean I need to work in a personally much rather be at my computer home than than working in a law office, or or doing anything else that I might have ended up doing, and I, I think the other thing, too, is that, you know, I might you, too will see may revision liters still to this day after all the books up in rising with the sun. Ada, they always want changes. They always want you to different things. They might you know, in my case when I started writing historical fiction for Amazon. I was at she rising contemporary women's fiction for them as well. And I said, look, those books on aren't selling well enough doing our K, but we don't want to publish them anymore. We want to grow you historical fiction, and, you know, I just it was hard because I could say how much hotter and historic. Fiction walls in how much longer those books would take me to rise. But you know I just I focus on, on the career and on the bigger picture, and might his in my publisher end the marketing department everybody is so experienced and they know what they're doing. And I trust your advice in I tight your advice on board. I make the changes I have to make. And I think just being adept to bow species publishing win the market just changes sergeant medically sometimes that is just so important to be open to change, and to look at new directions and take feedback on board here. That's interesting. You know, your comments about the world will to that does seem to virgin. I've been really on looking closely at a stark affection market may be for the last eighteen months. Oh, and even a net time. It's amazing. How exposes patently that you become aware of we're of it? And so you notice, but there are a lot of books they have in their nation out there Olvera. And I think it's you know, it's, it's always. How to stand out win this more will books published in the specific gene, you're rising, and I know now may not keep very close eye on the kindle top one hundred be sellers. End the number of historical fiction books that in that in that top one hundred now has just grown enormously. And some of those books, there's, you know, there's a very popular book, also published by Amazon called beneath the scarlet sky and that, you know, this is a very different historical fiction book to mine. I mean I'm very much writing fiction end, but that they're doing well, and I think it some, you know, male and female readerships have really embraced it that Jonah older specific will to period, which has been really interesting to say, yeah, yeah. This podcast is cold. The joys of binge reading so tune into rare as Rita. Yes, I'm your basically have read all your life. I were benja and who, if you've been read in the past maybe heck speed and Benji today. Sure, do you know? Actually just started the seven sisters series by cinder Riley. I have heard so much about it in my mother particular has been telling me constantly that I must read it, so she just started the first book. And so that's that's been enjoyable. She heaven, do find it very hard to find time for rating on the square on holiday. But I've started dead. One of my other just thinking who else as. I do love suspense thrillers. I often don't raid the same journal that I'm rising in, because I like to sort of, you know, raid, something completely different. So I did binge read a lot of leeann Moriarty books and are really like her stories as well. So big little lies. In the husband, say Christian in those sort of, and then going to his back further in time, I loved the bronze horseman series by pulling Simmons in that stands out to me as one of my absolute favorite series. It's interesting. Yes, I must admit I just made discovering, cinde Riley, must've been relying on the library to get them. So sure I've tended to read them out of order, because it's just when when you've got on hold comes on. But if selected, but I the something absolutely remarkable about the mom just Leonie curious to know how it's going to end up because I'm sure, in the end, we must find out a bit more about past salt, but you save -solutely while I'm on the early all. Into that. I already see it. Some it's shaping up to be great. I'm very lucky. I, she teamed to buy my mom books that I would like to raid, so she has older books in the series tonight sitting there. So I'm very much looking forward to Goggin stealing the Molen rating every single one of that might be for holiday later in the year I can read those. Yeah, it's to be able to read in order. Absolutely not that it makes that much difference. But, you know, I have found myself thinking now I have I have I read that the twins if I read birth to twins now will just one of them, you know, that sort of your absolute and I know you other books as well be fantastic who standalone books. So I'm just looking around of all my books in my office here to see what other tell you the other also that I absolutely love. Ustralian also Belinda Alexandra. And she writes some fantastic stories as well. So she's a favorite of mine that stabilize Saiki. Right. So we asked to run out of time. So it just sit around looking back over this wonderful career that you've had at the stage of you doing it all again. What would you change if anything it's a great question. Do you know I think there are things that I would like to change that I probably would don't have any control over? So I mean, the amount of years that I. Writing before I was published. I would like to shoot met time from Steven behaves down to four years. I think I needed a few years as my rising apprenticeship just to find my voice in developed my style. But no, you know, I've been happy with high everything's happened. I'm very much migrants very proactive. We've got a great relationship, you know, she helps me find every opportunity, and I take every opportunity with Maine's that I have crazy deadlines. I have no idea how I'm going to make my d- lines. You know, I just I think as long as you're always saying. Yes. In open to change in your new opportunities. You know, it just keeps your career moving in different directions, which can be surprising, but I met she hippie without so we'll panned out to be honest and talk about your working of. But I you a wick haul it do you like to do a lot of plotting. Howdy reproach. Every book look differently. Workaholic I and it sometimes out of necessity because, you know, trying to as a writer, make sure that you have enough income coming in for the year. And that sort of thing can be can sometimes be a juggling act, but not no. I used to be what I guess you'd call Penser so writing by the state of, by pens, not doing a lot of plotting win on writing contemporary, romance. I think I can get away with it. And I enjoy that process I ran into a lot of trouble trying to do that as a historical fictional. So I now do a huge amount of plotting my historical fiction, and I pretty much work at a character act plot each individual character so often, it's three three main women in less story. And then I also heaven overall plot in a general story, as well. So, and then just trying to figure out how those character acts like he's all made together and how works out through the story. I'm eating now is insisting that I do chat to buy chapter plot outline which just about kills me. But I the first time I did it on which was the last book, I wrote with her. It was just amazing has streamlined. It was the revisions that we head in the. Edicts that we worked through with so much lighter because we'd kind of nut at all the issues, a beckoned Ford each chapter. So although they were surprises stole through the novel and it did make the writing process much, much different. So I'm now a converted plotter, I suppose that's fantastic. Do all of that, before you even start writing a single word is while actually I did start writing the fish check to just to get a feel for the story. But yeah, I mean my historical fiction, I normally do a lot of racist. I, I have all those research notes in, I often do what I should probably call a bet cover blurb. So I sort of do a two or three paragraph pitch my editor and in a basic outline. And if she's happy with it than we develop at night, I write a bigger outline. She sends it back to me with all sorts of notes over, and we sort of go back and forth like that. So that I guess we both happy with the amount of conflict, and how the characters how the characters have changed through the story and how to wigs out fantastic. It sounds amazing. So what is Nick? For Seraya the writer. I mean what have you got on your plate safer? The Knicks twelve months. Sure. So I've got the girls of Pohang, which is coming at a July sixteenth, which I'm very excited about also pitching new ideas for new historical fiction. So I'm hoping that, I'll have details of those new stories on my website in the next few months. I'm finishing up a contemporary moment story at the moment is well for Samaritans Samaritan's priests, and she didn't she Anita Ritchie Megyn to you. I also middle grade fiction for children. So I write those stories is Syria, nNcholas, so I hit a series that was actually available in New Zealand. It was an old books bookstores, which was great. And that was called stolid stable, so I really enjoyed rising children. And that sort of I guess eight to twelve age readership, and I'm working on a new middle grade story as well. So I am differently when you ask, before were there, other worker, Hollick, I think you'd probably say, yes, I'm always working on multiple projects in always thinking of new idea. Is fantastic. You mentioned you weep sites in it sounds like you very active in, in the marketing side of things as well. Whereabouts can redes- find you online, and how's it based to interact with your sure? So you can find me online and more information at my website, which is dub dub, dub, dote Seraya line dot com. So this is a our y LA in a dot com. I'm also on Facebook, which is probably where I have most of my interaction with raiders as well as Twitter and Instagram. But if you hit to my website, you can find links on Facebook is probably the fastest way to, to engage with me online, but I always answer emails, so it may take me a day or two sometimes. But I always respond to my rate is I love hearing from raiders. Thank his Seraya. I'm sort of blown away by how much you're doing. So I. But it's been wonderful talking to you. And I think the Pearl Harbor book sounds wonderful. We'll look for that with interest great. That sounds fantastic. Thank you so much for having me today. You're welcome. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the joys of venture reading podcast. You can find all the details and links for this episode at dub dub dub dot the joys of binge reading dot com. We'd love to eat your comments and suggestions for who you'd like us to interview nixed. And if you enjoyed the show, take a moment to subscribe on, I tunes or a similar provider, so you won't miss out on future guests, thanks for joining us, and happy reading. Joyce have bench reading podcast is put together with fantastic. Technical help from Dan, cotton, and Abe reference, Dan, is an experience sound and video engineer whose radiant available to help you with your next project, c come out at d c audio services at g mail dot com. That Steve Daniel CPA Charlie audio services, x g mount dot com or check casher nights. He's fast. He takes pride and getting it right. And he's great to work with a voice was done by Abe rebels another gym of sound and screen has twenty years of experience on both sides of the camera slash microphone as a cameraman director. And also as a voice artist and TV presenter, I think you'd gray that is. Voice is both lighthearted and warm. He is super easy to work with no matter what the job, you'll find him at a, a B E, aunt point, and shoot dot dot insead. As I say the full details in the show notes on the website. That's it for now. Thanks for listening. Hopefully see you next week. Bye.

Amazon writer New Zealand raiders America publisher UK Seraya Knicks US Jonah China Steve Daniel CPA Beck editor Pearl Harbor Bassora Lieber Facebook
Science journalist Alison Ballance hangs up her boots

RNZ: The Detail

23:51 min | 3 weeks ago

Science journalist Alison Ballance hangs up her boots

"I'm just tuning my albatross. Doesn't interrupt is it. Is it the ringtone on your side china love. It raises eyebrows. I don't even know what an albatross sounds like. Well they have different. Sounds so i have let me just find. That would go for you okay. Are you ready. This is what my find. sounds like. Okay it sounds like a cross between a seep and doc alison balance is the voice of changing world. Rnc's program about science nature and the environment cell phones albatross which is one of our smaller albatrosses. They breed early on the sneeze. Islands on the eastern chain and on the bounty islands so that was recorded by bounty islands. It's a couple of albatross is calling am displaying to each other and it's an island that has absolutely no vegetation. it's just be a rock. Covered with albatrosses and penguins and seals allison has taken who listeners and readers there and other remote parts of the motto and to the niece of endangered booths. Face to face with great white sharks to i the eighth laboratories up mountains into rivers and even into people's minds but after making more than a thousand ellison is retiring. I'm sharon break kelly in the detail. Today marks ellison's extraordinary career. It's up an island that hardly gets to go to fill immensely privileged and we had a couple of days the accounting the penguins and counting the albatross overturns aid and i just love the sound of seabirds has been a recurring theme for me and my time on changing world. Did you do a story on that for our changing world. I soon lee dead. Sharon was any particular angled who it their particular story was was sort of an expedition story so i had been down on. Antibodies island helping out with doc recording a story about the run up to the mouse and radiation in this is l. welcoming committee taking up all of the flat. Dry beach cove green of elephants seals. And we counting penguins. And we're fixing a hot. That had been badly damaged in a landslide. We've managed to recent all three to suv around the elephant seals and hold it up the cliff by derek in the flying fox and these lots of hard work it a stove and so this is typical of lots of stories. I've done where. I get the opportunity to go somewhere with a group of people and i make a story about who those people are where we are. Why we're via maybe is about to demonstrate weeping and then all denial embarrassed myself and have a guy. You sound like a ghost. Ooh oh shucks this ellison on friends war whooping to call seabirds on the chatham islands. But let's get back down south to those winds sweep sub antarctic islands because it was a trip to campbell island to study fear. Oh shape that was the start of ellison's career. I didn't really want to study shape. But i really really wanted to go to the sub antarctic. So this is during. My master's degree was really difficult to get opportunities to go down there so i was completely blessed to have that opportunity to spend four months down near At privilege to be an kind of place for four months. And i've i've kept going back at note sometimes with these decades between my trips but once you've been down there just gets into your system and again this. This job that i've hated irons has just been a fantastic opportunity to take people with me. most people won't get an opportunity to go down me but you can at least come along with me and be of that voyeuristic and get a sense of what the places like him what it sounds like and then hopefully through my talking about the place and the people. I'm with talking about the place. You just come away with a sense of its history. Its natural history its place in the new zealand landscape. What is it like to spend four months in a place like that. One of the pleasures i've discovered in life as the sense of being somewhere for a long time and just revisiting things on a daily basis. So what being there. For four months allowed me to do was experienced the island in all abets moods really wendy which is a lot of the time but then you get days of complete calm. You'd get to see the ebon flow of the natural seasons. You know the way the birds and that other animals come and go. So i was watching royal albatross. Chicks grow up. I was also the win. The southern right whales arrived in the middle of winter which they do for two or three months and so you just get a sense of the rhythm of life. And i've had that same experience back here in new zealand just doing the same walk again and again and again and it's different. Every time i walk to radio new zealand. Wellington for my highland. Hi tie and i've seen. I will matter icke the southern right whale one day. Walking to wig. I was walking. Along one of the marinas and ellipoid seal came up. I've watched of marine booed. Feed up right in front of type papa and those things mostly done happen but if you theory they do happen. Yeah and i guess a lot of us. Just don't have the time or the patience to do it but getting back to campbell island and it for months trump. So were you staying on a boat or was somewhere on the land that you that you stayed bacon the days. This is nine hundred. Ninety four was a functioning with a station on campbell island so i was the with a team of teen meet style. Fund various desire department of scientific and industrial research technicians. And then there was myself my field assistant for two months and another biologist studying new i- rates. Wow so it was a small group of people but it was very comfortable base to come back to. I spent a lot of time working in one of the the field hats. So a little hat along highway. And it was when you're working in the field and it's like when tramping huts are an amazing refuge as basic as they are but bake at the base we hit a pole table and we hit film nights on. There was a cookie. Cook inside was actually very comfortable. You'll see they is incredible efficacy. Ju you worked at natural history new zealand and dunedin for many years and they talk you all over the world not just around two very remote parts of new zealand. But i mean you've been to mongolia. Ecuador russian far east and the detect me round the world. And i have to say. It's not nearly as glamorous as it sounds. I used to say to people. I do get to go to great places and spend good amounts of time the but i will spend a lot of time in airports lagging xi's baker everywhere mongolia. Why were you there. It was a series that niche western new zealand. Nine hundred was making with discovery channel and with nhk and japan on basically it was called. Wild is your. It was basically ecosystems across asia. And i was looking at desserts and dry grasslands and we were comparing the the steep grass lanes and the steiner deserts of mongolia with the hot sandy deserts of india and filming some bids cordell cranes which basically migrate across the himalayas between mongolia. In india. of all the places that you've been to does one stand out for you the experience of of going to a place and in what you found out and what you achieved in terms of overseas places that are Have made a real impression on me. I have to say the galapagos islands are incredible. So that continues my obsession with c. boots and with ireland's with natural history and the galapagos islands are just. They're the like new zealand that they've been isolated for long time. This random selection of things have tuned up and done extraordinary things with the circumstances that would be so like. The marine iguanas was a land. Guana that specically loon to feed in the sea and of it's ridiculous but it was all possible at the equation on the galapagos islands. You know a lot of people would say this is a dream job. How difficult was it to get a job lighter so mean. Did you have to really work away at at involved. A lot of patience. I have to sign up an extremely lucky And it's just things fell into place and sometimes they they certainly didn't fall into place immediately so i did a master's degree in zoology. Got that opportunity to go to campbell. Island i then worked for four years at the odious desire ecology division and a newly created position Cold information officer which these days that called probably the science communication person and i was working with the statistic group of ecologists helping them translate the assigns into everyday language and i learned the amazing. Listen viet Good science takes a very long time. So i have an inordinate fondness for long term research because it just reveals things that doing something for one or two years doesn't reveal and i did that for four years and and the whole time. I was in touch with niche restaurant zealand. Which bake them with. Tv's natural history unit. Making walled south documentaries. And i was just doing the hello. I'm here. I'm still entry stood if you are interested in we're going we're interested but it's not the right time we don't have job and after five years. The opportunity came up to work with them as a researcher. So by that stage. I knew a lot more about new zealand. Natural history an end. I came in at a time. When you could start as a researcher and work your way up to directing and producing. Which is what i did lousy because i had the opportunity to work with some amazing filmmakers at night jeans. Who taught me lots. People like makes kwan. Like morris and i owed emigrate did. Because i didn't go to broadcasting go. I didn't go to filmmaking school. I learned from the experts from the professionals. You must love being out in the field. You mustn't mind not being comfortable. I'm perfectly happy. I i'm a tramp from way back. I'm a came from way back. So i don't mind how basic living conditions are and opportunity to join people And there are some very generous and amazing scientists in new zealand who've been willing to have me along. I don't mind how crude by living situation. As if i've got an opportunity to tag along and tell stories what's the toughest situation you've been going back to my ringtone on my find the bounty islands. Antibodies islands I have to say they're living conditions. Were very difficult because he had been a massive rainfall event on the island. They'd been huge slips. Which has shunted the one small hat on the island About twenty thirty meters and it needed to be fixed. And so i was living in a tiny little one person tint and the sub antarctic islands are joined by the fact that they're all really. Wendy whichever one you go to really windy so lying at night. Basically thinking that the anything that was holding my team on the ground was may And the white of mayonnaise and just thirteen luffing around me And it was a very small team. Because i had a very small spot to london. And then we'd get up and have breakfast on the hat and the the boaters worst would say you can't come back into the hunt for the die because we'll taking the floor out today. 'cause we read piling it So the hat was a comp- was a building site. Basically an an a wet muddy building site fish. And i take my hat off to the people who are rebuilding that they did a fantastic job in sir. How long did you sleeping at one person tnt. Four well We were on the island for about three weeks two and a half weeks and he was another night where we actually tricked taken out camping gear across to the far side of the island counted a distant penguin colony and we pitched out tnt on one of these slip sites because it was the only place that was flayed so it was dried and then it started snowing so we called out about teens long enough to too far abou- promises and boil just enough water to make our d. heim meals and then crawled back into our teams for a dyke because we would knock helping wins in the snow and and the the mud under neath out tnt just tuned into a choir over the course of the next twenty four hours. This week came and went was just so muddy. Oh you keep going back from war. I i love the places i get to go show. I think the thing for me. Having worked overseas in come back to irene seed and been being able tell new zealand stories. As it's really behind me what an extraordinary and beautiful and remarkable country. We listen but as you say you're you're willing to put up with stuff with the rest of us probably. I'm willing to put up with. I mean the time on that island and you're stuck inside your one person tnt and it was snowing outside and it was mad underneath. Yo we having a good time. He's i was still heavy. John what were you doing. Oh as was it was like day. When you go tramping you just low around any sleeping bag and enjoy catching up on some sleep on and then you shut up the people in the eighteenth next door on every so often you have to get out and have a pay and then you feel like you might need a cup of tea so you do the hard work of finding enough water for a cup of tea time and i'm notorious for lying in bed at night and going actually the sound of the wind blowing my teens around and the sound of the sea boots. I've he'd i think i'll just get my sound recorder out and do a bit of recording. I'm sitting with my bake to the blowing wind and snow the scott base in front of me and some cracks in the next to the pressure. Just which is with the seals come and go from under the ice we need see. The widow seals lying around on the see us like a tiny part of the world. The real business goes on beneath the ice. And all i've got to give me a little glimpse of there is a hydro fine and for that. I need a hole in the ice. That i can safely work from. I have been sitting here completely mesmerized by the widow. Seal something in your fridge and twenty nine books. You're working on your thirtieth. Now that's right. That's one of the reasons i have to leave. Barron zina's to finish off an incomplete book. Which i've written half of its on takahiko. Which has new zealand's longest running conservation program and I'm really looking forward to getting back into telling that story. And what does that story will. That story is that it was booed. That was already on the brink. When europeans arrived in the country. I think it had been an easy for mardi to catch so they thought it was. Extinct was rediscovered in. I thought it was extinct again. And then and was famously. Rediscovered by jeffery oil and a team of people including john watson and the night nineteen forties and it was. It was front page news around the will of this remarkable booed rediscovered in the mitchelson mountains and fuelled linden. It was it was a real potboiler. So it's a remarkable story of conservation sustenance really one of the other stories that maybe you most famous for is the kaka poll. Would you say it's the thing that has put your name out more than anything probably So i had the great privilege of working on a kakapo documentary for eighteen beck in the mid ninety s and i have stayed connected with the kaka program. You have a sense theme which brings me great joy because it's another remarkable conservation success story and the fact that i've been given the privilege of popping bacon every few years really and following up on on how the whole thing is going along and writing a book on us and finding out where all the kakapo the names and you know i feel like a very fond anti one of you other great patients as great white sharks and you've described them as perfect creature as you could get all the great white sharks romanizing. I've been diving for the last t- and elise. And i think malcolm my partners a shock scientist and we sat down once worked at how many shots we dive with. And i think. I dived with something like seventeen different species and i went to stewart autumn with malcolm on one of his research projects to record a story about the white shark research. And i was all set to be completely nonchalant about the white sharks. They're just another shock that very overrated and then they were building up on a boat. It's too it island. In the first white shock appeared shock jock out. And i just hate to sit there. And i'm like goodness that really is the most impressive shock. Not only is she about full meters long but who good on the right hand side. I'm going to try and It's not bad fifteen minutes here. she comes. I'm assuming you know she's abusing. It is an awful lot of shot going on there and they were just swimming around the boat and they just don't give you any emotion is not you. Don't get any sense of attachment to a shots. They're just called clinical could. Iho is that robert ably. If you fell in the water is what do you think about. Mainstream media coverage of issues like sharks. I think in general if you just step bacon. Look at the big picture of how the media report on science so our changing world as we've been talking about the natural history of the spectrum. It's a science program that goes all the way through to ultra-cold physics for example. And i have been working on this program full moving twelve years now and in that time i have seen out. General science literacy improve amazingly so the science media into his worked with scientists in with journalists to improve the quality of our science reporting. I think individual journalists have a beat a saints. Now of. what's a good science story. And what's truthful science story not just a Sort of knee jerk reaction science story And these bene- sequence of events in just in my time at iron seed that have really bought science to the four brought scientists to the four The christ church earthquakes were one of those times. And i take my head off in particular to mac quickly from who at that time was at the university of canterbury who was the geologist who stood up and seed. I bought a house in the middle of the liquefaction zion. I'm dealing with liquefaction but let me tell you about the science and about aftershocks and suddenly as a nation we became much more knowledgeable about earthquakes and the same way that we're all much more filmed about infectious diseases After a year of covert reporting. How do you feel about media coverage over the years of climate change because in fact you wrote a personal essay called touchstones that won a creative science writing prize in two thousand and stephen. I guess what. I'm trying to say is that you were probably much and writing about things and much more aware of things like climate change before all the rest of us. Did you find it. Frustrating trying to get the message out. I think that that's where the media fell down for a long time. And it's just at surround that issue of balanced reporting you know the journalists editors as that you have to have both sides of the case so if you talk to an expert from one side you need to talk to an expert from the other side and the problem was that we labored fr- quite a few years under the situation where you know about ninety seven ninety eight percent you can argue the numbers of scientists seed. Climate change is real. It's happening and it's caused by us like we are increasing the right at which climate change is happening throughout actions and it was a very small vocal group of deniers who had given almost equal airtime and so far low longtime. You could forgive the general public for being very confused because when they turned the radio on on the television wipe in the newspaper. I seem to be getting this balanced view which gave him the impression that half the world thought it was happening and the other half of the world doesn't think it was happening and i think we eventually realized that you need to give equal voice to two people who don't have evidence on the aside and i think i think it's the science literacy advance that we've had in the last decade or so as people understanding that evidenced based decision making is really important. What are the facts. Are they credible. Fakes are they been as this. Research from a credible organization is that scientists talking about something which they're truly knowledgeable about you know we've learned to interrogate News a little bitter. And i think that we the will become bitter at reporting on climate change but for for years there was just frustrating from those of us who could see that. The bulk of the evidence really clearly pointed out that climate change was real and was happening at a at a at a much faster pace than than mainstream media. Wanted to believe that the thing that makes you most anxious et is i. I do think that we need to act in. I was listening to a podcast day. Walking to wigan was was about the voyager probes that point in time with a tune one of the voyager probes baked so it could fight graph basically our galaxy with planet earth and the five distances a pale blue dot. And you know we we live on this pile blue dot and it's a beautiful place and we do seem very intent on mucking it up and then we seem to think that going to mars is the answer will leads to spend some of the mass money on fixing up the problems that we've created at home it's up for today. I'm sharon break kelly. Thanks to ellison balance the detail is brought to you by newsroom. Codeine seed in may possible by our inside and incident. You can get us downloaded free. T mobile device every weekday from any podcast platform. If you using airport levers erasing so confined us. To- jeremy ansell engineered this episode end alexia russell produced. We'll leave you with more from the whittle seal symphony do.

new zealand campbell island ellison antarctic islands mongolia galapagos islands doc alison penguins department of scientific and i Guana chatham islands Rnc allison india nhk sharon derek Sharon dunedin
Dementia research funding under threat

RNZ: The Detail

23:07 min | 5 months ago

Dementia research funding under threat

"It's one of our biggest fears because this is something that i think. A lot of new zealanders adhere fight off a government's being warned to prepare for a dementia tidal wave. That will cost the country. Billions as a number of sufferers tramples. In the next thirty years as the population grows and ages is estimated that the number of people in new zealand living with dementia will rise from around seventy thousand today to more than one hundred seventy thousand by twenty fifty one hundred and seventy thousand people effected by dementia within thirty years and the costs are huge with total cost to the new zealand. Economy rising from one point six billion dollars today to four point six billion dollars but we d fifty. We know a bit about it. His neuroscientist dr brigid ryan talking to news. Talk seed base. Carry mcivor when we talk about dementia most people's bank Immediately of alzheimer's disease and that's because alzheimer's disease is the most common cause of dementia. But there are many other conditions that that close to meet you as well but these a lot. We don't know this rise. In global numbers of people with dementia and the burden of the illness as well as the fact that currently there is no cure for the illness makes it extremely important for us to focus our attention on reducing the risk of dementia so no cure and the numbers are soaring yet. One of the key organizations leading the research into prevention and treatment is under threat on sharon. Break kelly today on the detail. Brain research new zealand is losing its status as a senior of research. Excellence and the millions of dollars that go with it. We look at what that means in the war against dementia. The most ambitious wonderful idea was to establish a series of clinics in oakland. Christ church and dunedin call the dementia prevention research. The richard full hit of the center of brain research at auckland university. He's also in charge of mardi engagement and fundraising for brain research. Indeed and he's talking here about a project seat up by the organization whole mission. There was about four hundred people enrolled in a who were in the very earliest stages of alzheimer's what we call. Mile kung condom pin. We're the just showing a few hints and take them together with normal people and then trial also combinations of care so that we could slow down the progression with four hundred people. You see. you've got a good number. Which is going to be statistically significant to see what combination. It's not just a pill but it's gonna be a combination of food of looking at patterns of live of looking at the role of music and all whole everything that that my picture you'll intellectual law as you go forward are up and running but most wanted to those are running. You cannot believe that this is a very ambitious project. So we had you all psychologists Imaging people of a blood bank so that we could sample parole the bloods in different ways and do him. Our is and so. It's a very complicated and in modestly ambitious people but instead of looking at bryan sir pinson dies you'll monitoring them during their lars and that's the magic of it well you zealand because we're about new zealand then what's a- tehran new zealand. There's just not. I european caucasian. But there's now and the specific to all the other so we were inclusive of it and That's why we were quite different to australia. Or some turn nixon britain where we were doing it for new zealand. You see and we got to the stage where we developed the switch where it doesn't do the of research bellicose. It needs to go to about four years to get them off the ground and getting coordinated and and then we will to go into the golden years of it now you say and And there was just taking different Advisory committees decided that we didn't need funding for the next eight years. But we're going to give it to someone else we've done. That's fair enough. I mean is the problem. The main problem is lack of financial involvement in recent. You know when he talks about t he means the to sri education commission the body that gives out nearly fifty million dollars a year to centers of research. Excellence or core and twenty fifteen brain research. Insead received thirty million dollars. Spread over six years. That ins and next year and it's been unsuccessful and the latest funding round sir. Richard sees in the extreme brian that you've got to having made the investment list down reap the rewards visa being housed benefiting. Give people one of the tragic. I mean we've got a wonderful government who's dealt with covid nineteen superiority and wonderful and seventy speaks the one thing that i have not done. Visually liable dementia nells homes as a national priority. I mean most of the western countries have done it. So it's a great pity and that's been reflected and cutting out the funding. This one count understand. So let's look a bit closer at brain research in seat and how it all began. Clifford reminds the co director of brand new search new zealand. Ranko raw work In psychology department at the university of chicago rely been for a long time. Percents emigrated from the united states. Cliff abraham's been studying brain since he came here forty years ago nation. Brain is basically helped complexes a small maps issue the the amount of activity and things that the brain actually undertakes conscious for us as people is massive insult complicated so you can imagine that when things go wrong it would be as complicated if not more to find out ways to fix the problems and so A lot more is known about things that can be done from our lifestyle point of view zero five nine thanks to focus on diets Exercise intensive physical exercise also brains hot health and also being connected social so those five things of the things we really focus on intensive things everybody can do to try and reduce the risk of dementia. There are some drugs on the market that of in the case of alzheimer's disease that say that so we know can improve cognition but that don't really stop inevitable decline in function. And so we're still a long ways from finding therapies actually disease modifying as we call them. That would slow or prevent the disease in taking hold and of course. Alzheimer's is anyone from dementia. There are many other forms of dementia and also other phones another goal disorders Elevated aging. Can you explain to me who is actually doing brain research right now in new zealand is slightly complicated. You might say. There's various local centers activity spread across the country primarily at auckland tago medical schools and associated departments in universities but also Through university of canterbury and also not an end. Some other pockets of activity at other universities. They will all be getting their funding. Various national sources of funding. Like health research council in the marston. Ramey search new zealand itself is basically a contest by the government with a large additional source of funding that to provide to these researchers spread across the country to jump start the activity and push it along further and faster than it would otherwise in part by promoting collaborations between the people in these centers rather than having more localized pockets of this city for the very first time and history. Brian research across us brought together for a common goal and the come and go was to wake. Should he try and see if we could do something to Take aging brain diseases especially the main alzheimer's disease parkinson's and huntington's another instead of competing. Instead of okina visit competing with thai university saying well let's work for the coming good and that was a wonderful gym over and that's why it's called a national center of research. Excellence of which there are a number of course new zealand and this is one that is meant to encourage and adapt as adopt as an eighth ause. Multi-institutional multidisciplinary clave rations to get. Thanks get the research going further in festival so when it was set up an twenty fifteen. Were you thinking this would be long to ongoing projects we hope so of course and some cores have been continuing for over twenty years so we hope to be one of those But we always understood that. This was a competitive process and that after six years would be another bidding process and it was of course our aim to to succeed in the next round of competition in with that in mind set up some long term projects that would extend beyond the six years anticipation of getting refunded. So it's a fact of life that sometimes competition but it's also a disappointing that we can't maintain this momentum that we've been generating on the over. The past six years. I k star long term project is the dementia prevention research clinics to richard referred to earlier one of our major efforts. We accumulated quite a large accomplish. National workforce we have philanthropists have been damon On top of our core money to get this working in humming but also we have an extensive programme of support and mentoring for the early career researchers including enhancing and increase Pacific research your compliments and Clinical research compliments so of these programs. Hopefully they'll be a legacy of this but unfortunately we won't easily be able to keep them going in the same shape that we have safer. And how important are the clinic. Set you've set up in terms of tackling dementia. They have two primary names and one is to understand the predictors biomarkers on what might be modifiable or treatable aspects of the person's lifestyle or their physiology biology that we could use to slow the course if not prevent the courts into dementia in also. It's all they provide a pool of participants for small trials that we might Are just beginning to kind of get going so this kind of were also happens overseas but we we have our own particular mix of ethnicities and people new zealand and it's quite critical to our whole exercise with a mensa amount of effort going into his people to get these clinics up and running. So i think there are certainly hugely important and we need to find other ways to keep them going as as best we can for as long as we can so important that new zealand does its own research. I mean dimitrius happening. It's a worldwide problem. So why couldn't you just tap into research from other countries that have got more money on a bigger populations. Just use the information that the getting from their own studies the question that sometimes politicians asked as well you could just about it as about almost any area of research in new zealand. What it ignores by inferences that these are big problems. That are not been solved yet. We have really smart bright individuals here in new zealand that have ideas that are not found elsewhere in the world and we have the opportunity to help them express those ideas and research those ideas and we also have a unique cultural mix and this is gonna. Thanks that we we were. Aiming in the next version ever core is to significantly stand the prevalence of dementia for example amongst molly pacific peoples maori and pacific seemed to present at the memory service younger. And we don't know why that is we are Looking to develop an app is like a risk mature in a way that we want people will be able to assess what their risk of dementia is if people do have relatives with dementia. They'll be able to use it to find out where the services are in the local area and where the culturally appropriate services are also to recruit cohorts of them into the clinics especially for molly so we have our own questions leonard unique to new zealand. In addition to the larger overriding questions. Which apply to everyone but we need to be engaged in this process needs to be engaged with of course with international researchers and collaborators but we can make a difference here in new zealand in in some of the things that we find will be useful elsewhere in the world to we know just a typical european population. We are population of this people. But what is it. What's indigenous maori and pacific and they are involved in the clinic. You know the whole culture means that l. attack on this problem will have to be different to what done somewhere else you know you just can't rely on is subject and white for what the equivalent clinics in the uso europe again and we we We we were the ones that australia. We're having input from the ones in the so we it's not as if we go line. We going him. Totten the ship and the other thing which i haven't told you about other secret is that we have engaged with molly in the most wonderful way gone out onto murrah trying to put all about research and put it in context and particularly because my history guys make to not. Ti does not right here. Ethan taranenko little down there and with strong. Mary switch the most wonderful things. The thing about my whole background. We are not just doing something to give hope to a european or caucasian community. We are doing we give me to. It around new zealand community and the magic over and then me out of key. Young molly the khawaga quote it a guy but he did equating coverage bits young student at auckland's to per mardi or who on a why team new zealand has been essential and lighting a fire. L. students they now see that they do have a place in science will but do have a place at university and they can follow the calls head according mateta decay marketable coming to to coupling on more your on our own talk audible. This student is saying they learn about the different brain diseases from neuroscientists and they want to spread awareness so that people know the devastating number of mardi who are affected by these illnesses. The program is lead by dr hanan more elder those partnerships serve a number of functions. They make us accountable and make sure that we are connor. He could come face to face with motor communities and so we are making trying to make ourselves accessible trying to make sure that people can ask us. Questions can tell us the kind of research that they think should be occurring in the he's been an interesting initiative in a sense because a one hand you might say well. These are students. What does that have to do with the aging grain but for star it gives them insights into science in this area and how science has done and some of them have come to conferences visited labs but also of course they're very connected in tied into generational to their camacho include and understanding more about what's happening to their parents and grandparents in a way. I think we hope helps them with their Community engagements with their more eyeing the elders and so we hope that there's a kind of a long term benefit from engaging with all the students at macquarie off. I'm reading a story here that you're surprised and disappointed that you've lost your main source of funding. So you had no idea that you were going to miss out we were. We were certainly optimistic. And we thought we had takes impolitic boxes but we did chievo the objectives. We had set out for ourselves in the first six years by large in the feedback. We've been getting from. Various quarters was uniformly positive. Really so we. We thought we were in the game for sure. Were you told rai no. We have received no feedback as an interesting point. We were actually quite keen to hear why but it wasn't the guidelines from the start that there would be no feedback and it doesn't mean now that this center of research excellence you no longer exist or from joan. You won't be a center of research excellence. We won't be one of the ten funded centers of research excellent excellent. That is true what we working through now is what can we do to Continue the ethos of what we've achieved. Continue some of the initiatives. They're not just disappear into the night without the funding. You're not going to be as advanced as you wanted to be. Well simply put yes. That is the impact. Some of the initiatives may never get off the ground. We'll struggle to keep others going funding for days post lexin specifically targeted funding for mario pacific trainees early career. Researchers were go backwards so yes it just puts his back basically back to where we were before we started before. Two thousand and fifteen. We're gonna have to somehow or another get sufficient money's and we need about a million dollars a year at least to keep the connects guidance. One four more now. We're gonna have to turn them down as much as we came. We don't keep the street clinic skying but That may not be possible. You'll have to say have one in the north on one. The south almond inside. What's the funding gone. Will see back. You're done christian will is unchristian. It's faked out progress forward. Now been brian missile for well over forty years which going to human brian bank going in there seem to we within your citizens we Millennia hit but you see. We can't lose this battle. It's not important growing old if we if it's just going to mean a long pound of your life when you know who you are. We're all concerned about tomah. Change this the future and we concerned about those things which are impacting on their loss. And so on well one of the things that we should all be right at the at the very hot or that we should be concerned about is looking after our aging people so that they can continue to contribute as a want to marry had the most beautiful example either they they didn't even have a tim for dementia in their new vocab because they just look at the people who aging because i consider the reservoirs of knowledge does the wisdom most of the people they even if they do suffer some memory loss and other coaches european coaches. We hold the elderly in the same prestigious position as malady to. And that's and that's another thing we can you say another eight years before you might get more funding through. Let's move on by then. We can't We've had six years of this wonderful funding. I didn't give out team. And it's across all signs and this is a drop in the bucket compared to what they spend on the weekly basis to support You know health care for the whole covid cars as as rather we don't have any money so therefore we have to use a ryan's. I approached the tissue. Each case in commission to find out why brain research insead missed out on the funding an statement. The tc explained the highly contestable selection process but didn't explicitly say brain. Research must out of thirty one proposals from institutions doing world leading work only in were successful. They set for today. I'm sharon break kelly. The detail is brought to you by newsroom. dot co dot in seed made possible by oriented and insomnia. You can get us downloaded free to your mobile device every weekday from any podcast platform. And if you're using apple levers rating so other people can find us to. This episode was engineered by adrian hallway and produced by alexia russell with jesse. Chang is the associate producer. And thanks to sir. Richard full and cliff abraham cockatiel tianwan.

dementia new zealand alzheimer six billion dollars six years dr brigid ryan Carry mcivor dementia prevention research center of brain research auckland university thirty years sir pinson fifty million dollars thirty million dollars Ranko raw Cliff abraham tago medical schools Like health research council okina thai university
Changing our lives in a post-Covid world

RNZ: The Detail

23:25 min | 11 months ago

Changing our lives in a post-Covid world

"The World Silver linings and lockdown the quiet lake of pollution the family bike trips and nation pulling together the Kinda turn and politics so as we hid beg towards the old normal. What do we want to came from the new normal? And will we be able to keep it cure? I'm Emile Donovan. And today on the detail. I'm asking for experts in fields to do some crystal ball gazing. I wonder how many employers who had never really thought about Work from home options before. Put it all in the too hard bucket or had thought that it might be problematic in one way or another having been forced to try it might be open to opportunities in letting workers continue with it if they like taking time to connect with each other in ways that they haven't before to help each other and support each other at some point the political leaders to step up and go. Yep this is what we're doing and this is why emphasis hacked into there is a chance of things things change and some small minnow permanently baton equally a good chance not beater that you know. Within a few years we will just get back to the way things where one of the most remarkable aspects of Covid nineteen is how it transformed the hustle and bustle of city. Cena's into wild wist style desserts of glass and steel saw. How has the pandemic changed? The Vision for our biggest city are the outside the box ideas opportunities to change things up. Big Time for the future. I asked Auckland Council's Chief of strategy. Megan Tyler what she'd like the city to pick up run with and she to focus on. Its reasons I'm not sure I'm GONNA have a a a one kind of project here but in council has has a role to play but it is not the only one here. I guess for me. I would love to see initiatives that enable communities to To help themselves to continue so much of what is being seeing in the last couple of months of you know people taking time to connect with each other in ways that they haven't before To help each other in support each other Regardless all income will the situation or employment and just somehow see communities in enable people to all have the opportunity to prosper into to grow Is People before you know as a city innocent region yeast. But what about the big ideas will Auckland's visionary projects? The Sky PA the city rail link will they gain momentum or will they burn up and belt tightening bonfire. Yeah I I think there's a couple of really dangerous things that are probably going to come at us out of this. One of the projects like that will be seriously end. Street envied Herald senior writer. Samin whoa since being accused of big thinking before one of the things. That's that's been fascinating that we've discovered we're we're a society with government structures and Kinda societal buying that allows us to do really big things really quickly to productive good. You know so. The question of rough sleepers got resolved and it didn't get resolved in a long intendant way but got resolved. And it's something to build on the. We found that if we want to. We can have much air. Yeah and much less polluted streets if we wanted to their other examples like that where we the otherwise so because there was a health and outstanding health issue that one did get result but you know the budget contained fifty six million dollars for beefing up the installation of another nine thousand. Totally homes. Sounds good. Guess they're actually six hundred thousand points related times in this country so fixing nine. Thousand of them was old thinking. You know the post code thinking ought to be. Actually we can spend the money to fix properly society. It would employ a bass number of people and the House outcomes and only other outcomes that come from kids and everybody else you know to live in dryhome would be miserable and the budget any old thinking on that. It didn't see it as an opportunity for the new kind of thinking we need. Which is they're saying. Let's do something you kinda thinking. What are your most of wild or dramatic or or from your point of view. It interesting ideas for I guess. Zealand will widely. That have sort of come. Come out of this. I think one of them I if you think about Oakland Not only is facing but right now is also facing the drought. Oakland needs as a country needs openly the ability for residents people in their homes to be able to click rainwater and use it for gray water on the guidance and they taught us and so yeah regulations. Might that really difficult nine and you can imagine how transformative it would be if we could change the regulations and incentivize people to collect rainwater. Use it because we're going to the drought way facing at the moment. The design now and we'll be severely and he's not going to be the last time happened with mostly see and and greatest thirty. That's a really big one. That could be done pretty straightforwardly. And there's a lot of employment opportunity so thank kind of thinking and what it also does that points bank to water cannons a economic model for care which essentially as will they will sell us. Warsaw as much as they can and has to change them. It's not a motorcade interest to hit people. Could there right motor because we make so much water from and the same applies Trysofi if it was possible for communities to develop micro-credits with collect their own power from solar or wind what data and shared amongst each other and got safest they sell it back into the grid. That's and tested model folks lot of communities and museum particularly rural communities but also sensitive wants to but it requires a change of model. Because it's not in the interests of the power companies so people that be collecting all generating power So we need to do thinking about those things you mentioned really on actually that a corners at philosophical cornerstone. I used to be described. Actually a philosophical cornerstone of this rebuild throughout the country has to be Green leanness and environmentalism. And the at least environmental consciousness and awareness. And I'm curious. How do we do this? How do we make sure that that is an important three that runs through all elements of what either changes the our to our society? Well it requires political leadership. We've got to have political champions and there are very few of them impoundment and there are very few on the Oakland Council or other councils some as well. So that's a cool component. We've got to have regulations that just beef up the expectations at one one. Good example is is green buildings commercial buildings in cities buying large are extremely inefficient and wasteful of energy in many cases not healthy to be in there could be regulations to overhaul. The green building. Council has been calling for that for some time and they've got draft regulations relations available if the region in the seat. Okay only buildings I gonNA have to be built on much high green standards so they have passive insulation passive heating and I to be in a low on the COB and mutual least very low cabin at us and we're going richer fit buildings to those standards as well if we if we see and hit the regulations to do. It creates a lot of jobs. It makes a bit of city healthy population. Now we can do things but it needs the political leadership. It's very hard to say that. Actually they would be political opposition to it but it does require the leadership and it requires the selling of the message. The environmental groups can talk to them. Do Talk to that face about but at some point that APP political leaders. Steve happened yet. This is what we're doing and this is why and this is exciting. It and what project with Simon Wilson put in place? If he was in charge cycle week would be win for me and the reason is not simply because people won't cycle but because when you build a city the safe cycling you are building a city that is sanctioned functional. Everybody you know because you have to take on the values that will apply to everybody so I think is a key not just to transport but to civilizing the city itself. Okay so let's look at the nation or more specifically the nation's representatives pre and parliament at times sounded shall we say boisterous whatever that industry coal mining is. I'm having difficult on the standard. I can't win the jokes next. I'm looking at one is making a difference. And we've seen the numbers will if you want to listen to the answer in separate sweetie. I'm getting the site. Wanted US on. Sorry but this is the time to stand up and be counted. Get some guts and joining the roadside over the past couple of months since we've had nothing to the one. Pm Just Cinder. Initially show and Epidemic Response Committee become essential viewing but the cheer of the OSCE former National Party. Simon Bridges shot himself in the foot with his inability to read the road. A lot of the things that the government is done proposed probably onto to similar to what National would have done and he just really hasn't done a good job of If there is no turing offensive of getting across you can come. Close Band bit bombastic. Nothing that's strong but oh my goodness to someone new speaking at someone time away from to get your point across national's new leader taught muller wants to take a different tack. I'm not interested in opposition for opposition site. We're all tired of that kind of politics. I'm a bad ideas that get results. I'm proud of. He Frost Parliament on the zero cabinet. And we ever have the opportunity whip without the parties for our country's good I will do so sarcoma. Nineteen beat the prompt. We need to re civilize what goes on in the House of Representatives. Sachdeva is newsrooms political editor. There's been a certainly a desire I think from the populism reflect to bonaire politicians for greater unity and A feeling of common sacrifice politics can often be quite divisive about cut and thrust about what what separates US Tim's of political beliefs. But I think when everyone is is dealing with a you know a national crisis in faked global crisis. I think people want to be lifted up by our politicians rather than torn apart into two different camps has been a difficult adjustment. Do you think for politicians themselves to make A. I think it has been difficult for him to to adjust to this. I mean a system of politics. Westminster democracy is endured for a long time and it has an adversarial rather than collaborative. You know they. They will wit behind the scenes. Government and opposition impedes on on changing legislation. It slid committees but it is kind of built into the price that you've got two different seats of of politicians sort of facing each other across the debating chamber so it takes a bit of a mindset shift. I think to get to where we are now. And that's where I think as we've seen some politicians have proven more able to do that than others. Some of that. Maybe you can put down to the idea of. This is a Wissmann style. Parliament that we use here and that has many centuries of history and it's almost a way of doing things difficult institution to dramatically transform in a in a short period of time. Yeah precisely and I mean you know the New Zealand has been through two will ores diverse nine hundred nineteen pandemic and countless other Major Wilda Vincent any that's managed to largely sharp tons. So yeah. You can't really right right. The ship who attended around that easily. You're right I mean there is a chance you know. I think with any sort of global events of of of tectonic change. I think some observers were fair to it is but it's it's not guaranteed so there is a chance that things could change and some small men are permanently but equally a good chance if not beater that you know. Within a few years we will just get back to the way things were. Do you think it'll take that long a few years? Maybe not actually it might. Well be shorter. I mean just this week. The Labor Party's announced the unsuspecting suspending. The campaign formerly asking for donations. I think the National Party did it a week or two ago so yeah and the New Zealand context. At least the election is only Grayson four months away. So we're already starting to see a little bit of a return to yeah the the way things have normally been practiced they will be you no longer on a feats. I think you know the we'll be possibly live to- live one. Four for quite some period of time. Border restrictions will remain in place. So that will give a sense of I am. I think a heightened environment compete to have the country in the world normally operates but yeah months more than years. Probably more likely I'd say The elements to have politics worked during the pandemic. You think could improve our political system. Yes I do think there are things that we should. We should look at adopting and that have probably changed politics for the Beta and the last few months. I mean you taught before when you see you know not necessarily unity or agreeing with everything but constructive criticism framing. You'll critiques of policy and and politics in a sort of a more positive way and what we've seen that from some opposition politicians. I'll think the epidemic response committee which was set up while parliament was suspended. Actually worked really well and it's it's first few weeks. It was kind of more More of a discussion and And a chance to sort of bounce bounce ideas back and forth and it was it was list sort of a powder they don't start to change. Probably you know the fair that we got on as parliament came back but it showed a little bit of a glimpse. I think of warrant as possible with these sort of different methods of of operation. You obviously specialize in New Zealand politics. imagined that you've had a keen on how different countries around the world have dealt with this and if you look at the countries which. I mean it's hard to gauge. But if you look at the countries which seem to have doubts with maybe well if we can describe it that way the commonalities or shared themes behinds those countries. The government's the way that the politicians have communicated or dealt with this issue. I think it's relatively hard to to draw a common thread. Through through the nations that have performed well and say definitively. This is why they have succeeded. As the countries that perform well in terms of the air fiction rights span a range of of continents a Taiwan which is performed quite well New Zealand. Some of the Scandinavian countries Dean mocking. No Way. I believe so this diversity in terms of spas the political ideology and and they're sort of more practical cultural setups. I suppose what what seems to unite the sort of high achieve as they all acted verily and perhaps even at a point when some critics will saying it is too early. But that's the problem with the exponential growth rate of covid nineteen. Is that Some some anybody. Meola just have see the the base time to take action is is when it feels fought to alienate. It's only proved You know right with the benefit of hindsight so that's probably being the sort of defining characteristic that you mentioned before the since there's the public is looking for unity or at least constructive criticism in this kind of situation and a crisis like this. Can you see that lasting or is that something that is the product of its environment and the time in which it should have taken place I? You'll ride and I do think it is relatively time sensitive. People always talk about wanting constructive politics and not opposition for all positions psych opposition leaders of seed that for time immemorial but you know funnily enough they they get back into their old retains and I think I think the public does to. You know we're a we're in an elevated style high suppose of national crisis that that sort of demands a change from from politicians but I think in the in the medium to long-term yeah we will probably see things ten back to something resembling business as usual and international shutdown warrant go unpunished when it comes to the economy specially when we've locked our number. One export earners tourists out of the country. Hospitality and dire. Strikes unemployment is certainly GONNA rise. Those mass layoffs already started New Zealand. Will Mount up the DC trying to stay afloat? But Hey we learned any lessons from lockdown about how working life in the economy could function beata to Eric. Crampton is the chief economist at the Insead Initiative think-tank and occasional lecturer at the University of Canterbury. Well I have really really enjoyed the opportunity to work from home over the past few months. That was never really an option at our workplace before I was able to get at least as much done working from home as I ever did at the office. We had a incredibly busy period during lockdown where we were looking at Colin Policy Response. I wonder how many employers who had never really thought about Work from home options before. Put it all too hard bucket or had thought that it might be problematic in one way or another having been forced to try it might be open to opportunities in letting workers continue with it if they like so for me having the kids around the house while I was working them home schooling through Khan Academy and through marginal Revolution University where they can learn economics online for free. I'm very happy now that I'm able to continue working from home except on the days that there's a good reason to go into the office. One of the policy areas that we've been really strong proponents of improvements in his round congestion charging. So it's made no sense that we don't charge for space on the road at the most crowded times and a lot of folks push back on that idea by saying well. There's just no way ever around around it because times are inflexible Well one you can design the system to make sure that need worse off by but that gets complicated. I don't have to go through it here. Now but where? We do have a lot more flexibility now than we did before it starts becoming a lot more palatable to look at some of the road pricing options that can open up other opportunities right so you can imagine a fully dynamic user charge system on the roads that would tell you that well if people really are willing to pay a lot of money to go through the Mount Baker Tunnel at peak times and Wellington to get from one side of town to the other that means that it'd be really expensive for them to shift their times around and that also tells you that it might make sense to build a second tunnel if instead you see that the feed is necessary to ease traffic congestion through the tunnel of peak times. It's very limited then. There was never really any case for the second tunnel in the first place and you start learning those things when you have the pricing regime in place that lets people respond to those prices and we see then whether things like you. Tunnels or new roading investments really stack up or whether they're just driven by sort of perceptions about what roads need to be able to carry some theoretical maximum peak use. That's fascinating okay. So we're talking that in those contexts you talking about sort of congestion and demand and on are there other examples other sort of broad areas that this has given you sort of new new perspective on. Well I've always been a fan of flexible land use planning and mixed-use neighborhoods. I wonder what the consequences of more work from home. Wind up being in that context so previously city planning rules be fairly rigid. You've got your commercial district where you've got office towers. You've got places where people are allowed to live. You're not allowed to have much business than those. And then you've got town centers that are allowed to have little bits of business but not particularly dance and thousands of pages of another additional specifications around all of that. If you look at something like Auckland's unitary plan. I wonder whether people being more home. Based will demand for more mixed-use neighborhoods. Make it easier to have more corner. Cafes even residential places if more people are working from home more often it can't be nice to walk over to a properly made coffee rather than the plunder stuff that I make in my house now. I'm lucky enough that I'm a lot of four minute. Walk from Candela village so I can go and do that if I want to. But in other places. It's not as easy zoning rules that might make it easier for someone to set up a coffee kiosk and their friends on if they wanted to or set up little businesses like that for more mixed use environments. I wonder whether some of the opposition to that will abate with changes that we've had today. I'm a meal the detail is brought to you by newsroom. Dot Co Dot N. Z. In my possible by endings it on you can get US downloaded free to your mobile phone every weekday from any podcast platform if you using April plays labor ratings or other people can find us to. This episode was engineered by Jeremy Ansell and produced by Alexia Russell. And thanks to same David. Eric Crampton Megan Tyler in Simon Woodson cocktail.

New Zealand Auckland Eric Crampton Megan Tyler Epidemic Response Committee Covid Oakland Auckland Council Megan Tyler Emile Donovan Cena Warsaw House of Representatives Simon Bridges COB US Herald Oakland Council Simon Wilson
Setting aside the Moriori myth

RNZ: The Detail

22:01 min | 1 year ago

Setting aside the Moriori myth

"Who More than one hundred years? Since Maury were slaughtered. Enslaved and falsely classified as extinct a true account of their story is about to be entrenched in the law Moriori descendants and representatives of the crown will meet in Reco- who or the Chatham Islands today for the signing of the Maury Treaty settlements. It includes an agreed historical account a crown apology and eighteen million dollars. Welcome to the detail. I'm Emile Donovan. I grew up believing. Ms The first peoples of this country were a tribe eliminated by molly treat. Heat negotiations minister injured little. Believe the same thing score was moriarty. Rude we've gone in and original rice and effectively eliminated by Mahdi. Sorry I've learned an enormous amount since then I got back to the work of Michael King. Another historians who did this scholarship and tell the story that moriarty are living and thriving emmy of Mardi and and here the Moriarty myth has persisted for more than a century absorbed in parroted by generation after generation of New Zealanders. And this is a we it right. It's not like the truth. Has Been Hiding under a rock. The story of the modality has been known and understood by mainstream historians for decades. So Y has persisted for so long weird these myths originate and what is the true history of the Moriarty people. My Name's Molly Sullivan. And I'm the chairman of focal twohey. Maury Trust Maui. Solomon is one of the pillars of the recently concluded treaty claim. He's been fighting for recognition and for correction of the historical record for more than three tickets. I grew up in Two or two Muka as it's now known about one hundred miles south of process which my grandmother is my Tahu from Aro- Finola and she married told me Solomon and after he died in nineteen thirty-three. My grandma took My father who was elder son of Toma and who are the three surviving children back to to Muka? So that's where we were all born and brought up. I was told by my social studies. Teacher that There was no such thing as modality that That either never existed. Would I had been a meth and even when I say that my grandfather was timing homeowner who Tommy Solomon as is better known and that he was more beautiful blood. The teachers still say that was just That was a meth. So that story was pretty common for you. Know all morte descendants growing up from the nineteen forties fifty sixty S. Some of those stipend still made today is still a great misunderstanding and mythologies about modality and this is one of the things we hope that the settlement the agreed historical account with a crown and modality will fondly literacy. You were always aware of of the the true story. He had that come to pass. Who told you I really started? My US spies Moore discovering more Moody Ledeen details at the age of twenty three Just graduated from University of Canterbury with a law degree and had helped to organize a whom no reunion and to Mika and The family head nominate made to be the chair of the Tommy Solomon Memorial Trust Foundation to raise funds to put up a statue of grandfather on At Monaco won't recall who So I didn't got a job. In Wellington. Nineteen ninety four is a little clock and spent many hours reading and studying about research and Moody History at the National Causing Timbale Library to find out all about about my ancestors and about what had happened to Moriarty. So that's really when I started on this on this long journey. We're about to go on a journey to Moriarty one or one and that Jimmy begins with a pretty simple question. Who are the molding very similar to Maui? But with their own language variations theon traditions. The autumns Morio the wine upon all the original inhabitants of recruiter marlins and according to our traditions the the first and sisters arrived directly from Eastern Polynesia. Sir Rowland my finger would roll on my titty and Saito dear. They were lighter Walker arrived. So we're talking probably seven eight hundred years ago most likely from the east coast of The South Holland North Holland and found people already in an occupation so are the descendants of Rama my finger on Ud woman my finger and Some of those walk stayed Others left and returned so all mortuary Today Khokar Papa or have genealogical connection back to normal my finger as the founding ancestor so according to traditions there are two streams of settlement to Dicara who won directly from Eastern Polynesia and secondly most likely from the east coast of the North Island the Chatham Islands or recall who which means misty son are an archipelago of teen islands about eight hundred kilometers east of the South Islands while they politically still part of New Zealand the climate is very different to alto. That would have been like landing on a different planet. The climate has is sobbing tactic in the wintertime. Though very cold very windy so I would have found an island in the South the southeast Pacific that Had Plenty of seals. Plenty of birds. Plenty of fish crayfish shellfish climate. I wouldn't cry because it's too far south it's too cold And their only source of carbohydrate was from either fin route or the KORPI Trees in the nuts that they come from the trees that they planted because I'd brought the call Petri with them so it would have been quite A strange environment to to be arriving in If you'd come from directly from eastern Polynesia or or even from Zealand because the Chatham Marlins is quite a unique landscape one of the most significant figures in early Moriarty history and probably in the entirety of modality. History is Nokia Finra. Tell me a bit. About Nuke Noah and his importance to Moriori culture. Sir Nuku was a to hook or a togas spiritual leader of at people and he lived in a cave on the western shore of defunct the very large Lagoon In the center of the island and one day he hid fighting around the shore of the lagoon about a couple of kilometers from where he was at that time living hey went among the the warring factions and create from that day on that fighting should cease and that that people should lynn to live in peace and if there was any conflicts that they could fought with a wooden staff twice thickness of a thumb and fist blood drawn on a status. Ford now killing so he his words were Koto Putt to pour. Que Tunga Mir chop to ocoee meaning from this day. They shall we know for the killing. The people abide because he also laid down a curse that Should they break with a covenant that would be ostracized from the click from the tribe and Eighty nation from the clicked of Beckon those days. Pretty much means that Your dice numbered so For five six hundred years that the people live by that covenant of Peace With that covenant of Peace Stem from. What was the motivation behind us? You know was passed right down from the Tom of Mu fake. A roll my finger and right down to Nuku Nuku was Renewing what was An ancient covenant and I I think it was also a common saints response to a situation at that time that I think there was a realization. That if you keep fighting and killing one another it's zero sum game and everyone loses and also because none of goofy Noah was a highly respected. He had Iki E-e-eddie or leader. He was acknowledged as such by by the warring factions style. At that time and so it became. It became written law for them. Now while Able Testament was the first European to spot New Zealand's Racal who had no contact with Europeans until the late eighteenth century. Captain William Broughton landed in November of seventeen ninety one and he and his crew immediately claimed the territory on behalf of the crown relations. Go off to a bit of a Rocky Start. Viewers a brief period of hostility and misunderstanding. Lead to a Moriori being shot and killed before Broughton enters lifts for both sides. Fell to weeping guilty for overreacting. The Europeans also brought foreign diseases to the islands. Such as influenza virus killed some teen to twenty percent of the population. Which by the early eighteen thirties numbered around two thousand but in eighteen thirty five another disaster struck they were two sub tribes of Yahtzee Alwa-. That's not the Toma living at Wi fi to Marai Iron Patani here in Wellington and they had joined forces with repertoire and come down to Wellington from northern Tatyana key and the eighteen in about eighteen. Twenty two twenty. Three one of the relations had been on a whaling ship in eighteen thirty four to equal who and came back to Wi fi to marine told them of the coup. He came back to why fe two and told his people ear about the all in peaceful people Plenty of Carmona and at that time not to tongue too. Mutual were looking at Evacuating Wellington and so. We're drawing up planes. To either invade Norfolk Orlando saw Moore. Who some somewhere else. But they decided that Who was closer and You know there was a pretty much a sitting target because modality were people have peace. Cited common data. Ship had a Wellington Harbour and November. Writing thirty five and so The captain took to Bart Lights from Wellington. I've a two vehicle and light eighteen. Thirty five when The first part lied arrived They they landed at a place. Called a raw will pull hot as it's known Today and It had been pretty difficult journey. Though packed like cattle into the holds of the ship so they were very sick and unwell when I arrived and Though a nurse back to health on me and then the second I'm bud. Light arrived sing became apparent to me that the Nearly a arrived people had begun to to slaughtering and slave out people So they met at place. Kotel party thousand people meet out there. It's a with a head. They're really importantly in about March eighteen thirty six and I divided over three or four days. What response I would like to the invasion? And the young man. This young main to want to do wanted to fight back against the invaders because I could see the writing on the wall but the elders pretty much for bide fighting and killing because that had been at Lorde the power of life and death had been you know taken from the hand of Maine and put it in the hands of the gods that being warriors beckon the dyke and That lived in peace for five hundred years That went going to violate the covenant. Sorry they decided. In state to offer pace into she that the island with the With the new comers but that was strong back in face. The invaders were merciless. About three hundred forty slotted and the rest of the population enslaved in eighteen sixty two the remaining moriarty wrote to the New Zealand Governor. George Grey baking the crown to entertain. They recorded the seventeen hundred names of these men. Women children who live in eighteen thirty five and I put two crosses beside dosage being killed in. Aden one cross beside the names of those who died. Either of Kooning you disappear or through the brutality of slavery that that'd been subjected to for twenty five years and of seventeen hundred. They were one thousand five hundred sixty one names that had crosses beside them. That's gene Assad by international standard of those tombs but sadly the crown knew about this and did nothing about it. They stood on and let that happen even though Zillow is eighteen thirty six and eighteen forty one and nineteen forty eight. People like Bishop Salman had been to decode who reported back to the colonial government. What was happening but Maury would just an inconvenient truth to To the government of the day what were the consequences in terms of modality culture and the continuing sort of bloodline of Moriarty was that culture replaced. Did the majority bloodlines continue to live on? That's a good question The the consequences for modality culture language would devastating Modality with forbidden to marry the forbidden to speak their own language There were forbidden Nearly dice to have children that are treated appallingly. And in fact tiny tribunal Satan. It's report that if there was a as a style of slavery New Zealand during the world. We have one was at the the software rain Maury were at teen. You know the DACAS DA. It was the wistfulness library that could happen because he was nowhere for me to go. We were captives on on on Aaron Island. The population collapsed from seventeen hundred and eighteen. Thirty five Dan to a hundred teen by eighteen sixty two. So that you've lost over ninety percent of your people by that ninety per seend is a lot. The aren't too many ethnic groups that have come back from those sorts of numbers but ninety percent isn't extinction so we did the myth that Moriarty will wiped out originate. Well it's a convoluted story but it's important. Sorry hang in one of the earliest. Thawra accounts of the motive was written by the Pharma. End Alexander Shand. It's called the Moriarty people if the Chatham islands the history and traditions and it was published in nineteen leaving now. Shane's account by and large is pretty solid. But he died and nine hundred nineteen before the book was published. One of the chapters was instead written by Stephenson Percy Smith a once respected historian whose work is now. Viewed more skeptically given the liberties he took with the source. Material ends understanding of indigenous tradition. Shand had no input into this chapter. Obviously he was dead in. This is the chapter which provides a mountain account of Moriarty settlement on record who Smith had his information from a mouse. Kulla Fata Horo jury who had heard the account from a different scholar and the White Inaba and it was then translated by Smith into English. Smith's explanation as it. Morio a head. Originally being biased northern Taranaki had being pushed out by light more aggressive troops Tribes who arrived in all Tito They had fled to the mouth of the rung. Thika River Conveniently ACCARDI log being floated down the river. They built a canoe out of the cody log. Solid I've to Recu and that's Moriori caught. The so Percy Smith had placed them Moriarty in New Zealand to be driven out by lighter more aggressive moody and he also said that Moriarty were the original tongue of the finger and that they will pull a Melanesian Polynesian saw a classic case of Lost in translation the question of why the narratives being maintained for so long is a bit more nefarious. That myth then became Taught in school PSI from nineteen. Sixteen onwards School Janus Wi with publishing and teaching these this myth two generations of Zealanders. Who many of whom the older generation I believe it today and the reason it became so powerfully and grain the psyche of of New Zealanders is because if modern could push more duty out of New Zealand then lighter European migrants could push molly of. Elaine suited the narrative at narrative and it was a justification for European colonization of Maury Lane. And so not only did. Mardi losing that narrative but Moriarty having lost their lives Atlanta language. A liberty we lost our very identity because we became a scapegoat to be used By by POKKA HISTORIANS AND BY. Molly what is the status of Moriarty? Now how many Maury are then we have Two thousand registered members including children. But we we believe there are at least in six thousand people moriarty to saint early this month Moriarty Representatives meese treaty Negotiations Minister Angeles to sign the deed of setlement concluding a process. Maui Solomon began thirty two years ago. The terms include and agreed account of History at crown apology. The transfer of culturally significant land. On who and compensation to the tune of eighteen million dollars. But if he acquistion crops up why is the crown compensating the moriarty rather than the original greases nutty? Mutunga all nutty Tomah. Yeah well you know. We didn't have. We done. Have a treaty sediment with not Enough or treaty You know we'd be seeking redress from from but You know the crown. seized sovereignty ivory coup in eighteen. Forty two by virtue of the Treaty and by doing that the crown of shames routes to to sovereignty Even without air agreement. We didn't actually greeted that they just did it so With rights come responsibilities now. It's taken the crown from eighteen. Forty two up until two thousand twenty two actually acknowledge and do something about those responsibilities And and so that's why we We settling with the crowned art. Look like and understand Some people saying well you know the settlement should be with not Tomor but that's just not the reality The treaties with the crown and our relationship with the crown and And that's why we have the settlement. We hit today. You have a young daughter keenum. Mata is that right. I what did you tell her when she was growing up. Yeah well I have two sons who Taty end and he knew Marcia so I was told to be proud of the they immediately. Identity and I think just involving name in coming along to who to why Langer said. Our BEITH will milder sons in Australia. So he can be at the the sonning but the of they know who they are not proud of the Maria entity And I didn't I wanted mine. Timbuktu to know who they are and now a bath who they are and if someone asks them that they can respond my second wife a- Susan because we have a blended family and she has two boys Jaspar and Tasman Forbes and they have not Matola fuck up up back to the island so an errand family is is an example of hell peace and how many can exist between mortgage Hinna neutral. That's the detail for today. I'm a meal Donovan. The detail was brought to you by newsroom. Dot Co dot zero and made possible by airing zied and Indoneia on the subscribe button to stay across the detail every day. And if you're on apple please leave us of raising as it helps other listeners. Find us the CPA showed was engineered by Jeremy Ansell and produced by Alexia Russell. And thanks to Maui. Solomon cocky tunnel.

moriarty New Zealand Maury Chatham Islands Molly Sullivan Maui Solomon Wellington Stephenson Percy Smith Maui New Zealanders Captain William Broughton Toma Michael King Tommy Solomon Emile Donovan Nuku Nuku Moore Eastern Polynesia Nokia
What's behind south Auckland's recent crime spike?

RNZ: The Detail

20:00 min | 1 year ago

What's behind south Auckland's recent crime spike?

"I'm Alex stone and this is the detail today what's driving a spike of violence in South Oakland. The gang fain gene is changing and evolving and wise. We haven't seen since the nineteen seventies part of that is rapid growth. It is with a new form of leadership but a nuking the horizons and I'm not sure what what eventuates from the South Oakland Oakland has a whole lot going for it. It's home to hundreds of thousands of people from all walks of life coaches but you don't often hear the good news about South Oakland in the news more likely it'll be along the lines of fatal shootings in South Auckland since March and over the weekend there was a fatal assault in Ottawa who last Friday twenty-three-year-old five four. CRC was fatally shot almost a month after another deadly shooting on Darnell crescent less than three kilometers away. Another shooting and South Auckland has many residents on aging a man was also taken to hospital after being shot at a bar in Monaco Selfo Clinton's reputation as a hotbed of crime isn't always deserved but since March they have been eight shootings three fatal in the area and local local ladies I keep seeing more and more worried about us from my perspective in The gun violence that's coming from gangs. I get a feeling of frustration out. The two people are frustrated that this has happened yet again. because it's not mobile this is unprecedented. Even variety area fee so collins is is an Oakland Counselor for the Monaco Ward but that aside this issue is personal for him because my brothers saw had one brother in particular who was involved it and the gangs and I'm the youngest of the kids and an away. Tom Predicted me from what was going on in gangs a lot of people still today even my brother passed away about eighteen years ago but even today people still talk about how if he saw is Tom's little brother and so I wear that badge nf it's a badge of honor but but it's certainly something they predicted me growing up so I wasn't completely aware of what was going on in the gangs because my brother helped to offer it what I saw in the research that are conducted a guarantee knees ago was it there were a number of gang youth gang members who were disparate to get out and as I listened to the stories and heard about how they didn't want their sons in particular to be lost to a life of the gangs they were looking for ways and sometimes it's hard to get it and I'm desperate because I understand those stories. I know what it's like for those kids who are sitting in church who often rejected by society but they're accepted until the gangs and that's why I'm disparate because my brother buffet me from the life I went onto university as the fist and my family to go to university. I'm now in local government politics ice to lecture at the university. That's the potential that are whites young people if they're afforded the opportunity to stay at the gangs when you hear about violence in South Oakland when you hear about a shooting or stabbing or something like that. What do you think I think that it continues. I used to tarnish our reputation because there's lots of good stories that come out of South Oakland so I wanna pack that for a moment but focus in on the part of us that is saying deep down within this is not our South Oakland whip way past this and I think you just have to watch the news enough to get sick and tired out of the stories and the way in my view the narrative around Steph Oakland is such a negative narrative is a fire only hunter than you see. What's happening and South Oakland will it's it's not it's not the South Oakland. I'm aware of and whenever it's a South Oakland Story. It's always going to be negative. It's going to be about shootings and that's why we're in the community advising advising ion people. This is not as we don't need this rubbish on the news anymore so we've got to adjust where not happy with the narrative none of us are and so we change the narrative by not conducting the actions that get us falling back into the same narrative begin is it unfair. Is that overblown blown with coverage of shootings in violence or as it deserved coverage. Oh I think it's unfair. Look the minister. The Minister of Justice has come out and see that this decreasing in our rights of crime speed for Youth A. Amongst Mardian Pacific way these an abnormality in the statistics as they rather than the PD crimes. That's where we've seen a decrease as got an increase in the aggravated robbery and aggravated assault types of crimes so if you think of if you peel Becca what we we close in but we hold it all in and then when we got nowhere to vent then it comes at really badly and so the the story. I'm I'm trying to get out is if we can with our young people now. It doesn't have to be the overblown aggravated assault crime that gets talked about in the media. The prominence gang boss shot at Northland Mike Shoppers why cannot from Chi Minh killer bees praise. Josh Masters was shot at the Harley Davidson dealership on Friday a rival level tribesmen gang member or gusty. No Tie has been charged with attempted murder. Poverty is a key driver in my view. When you get rejected from society. You're going to tune to a way of life that is going to accede g an so poverty the fact that we've got a whole lot of fathers who aren't present and I know that it's tough for a lot of our young men because they've seen domestic violence and the house many of us grew up with domestic violence in the house. I grew up with domestic violence and my home and I understand that they are poverty stresses. You've gotTA BE IT Y. You've got to have multiple jobs. We're not coming. We're not doing well at school. You look at the statistics in school. Maori and Pacific mouse aren't doing very well in school so all of that adds up to I feel like the society doesn't accept me. I'm rejected by them. I don't belong belong and so all the things that come out of good which is like being a dead. You're going to miss out on. I think the poverty is a big issue but it's just having a role model. A father figure and wildlife is going to help to and so if what's being model to you as aggressive gang like behavior then that's what you're going to believe you've so are we seeing an increasing gangs and South Oakland. I think we're seeing an increase in its availability and accessibility what I do know out south as there's other gangs that are trying to sit up so this intriguing stuff that's going on as well the we've got to sort out who the gangs are in the community and what they're doing to entice young people learn but then they becomes the issue of a new gangs. China's sit up in your area that becomes a little bit of two four two and we've got both things happening being simultaneously an auto around South Oakland at the moment so it's hard to work with gang leaders were established have been there for a long time when that trying to particularly to if as well and we've got to understand the cultural variables within because that's the way they think and I'm not sure that as you look and if you haven't been involved in gangs when when you look and you think well they just need to go away Bee's groups established. We've got a wig with can the average person not involved in that feel the presence of those gangs like if you just a member of the community a you aware of the into gang politics that are going on now. I don't think you are and I I would say that the majority majority of people at South Anti of kind of exist alongside what happens in the world and unleash or connected to a gang or you've been affected by the behavior directly been. You're not going to know a lot about what's going on within the what we do know as some of the stuff that happens between him. Falls is out into the community so a shooting that might happen between gangs means that it's happened publicly. It's happened someone's treatment. Everyone becomes really concerned and I it was gave no assurance to anybody but often against China sort out their own issues between each other and over the years. We've had the opportunity to go in and talk to those leaders. I've been trying to talk to them too but some of them are fearful for some of them see me as part of the the establishment now so I might be seen as a knock and if they trust me then I might be seen as somewhat if one gang tells me something I'm going to go and release the immaterial so it's a very you've got to be really sensitive. In the way you deal with the gang leaders. The issue has become with now go to since two guns and we've got a new gang trying to sit up and the gangs are saying well hang on this will outside a fan so mind current to the police would be an Aena. They don't need to listen to me as to get read and to keep the new gang from sitting up because we can't have peace and violence with the gangs existence as they are. It's the new gangs is trying to set up that we've got issues. What we know is commentaries come over from Australia and they just China sit up and that's causing all sorts of problems and this is where it's it's going to get difficult and could spill into the community and that's why I think it's a real time for concern for all of us because we haven't had this issue in a long time. I can't remember in my lifetime and now we've got a new gang. China's seat up. We've got some people who are my age. Now who are leading the gangs therapist more trigger-happy than the old leaders is who just wanted to talk who could work this out in the background then we've got a new form of leadership got a new gang on the horizons and I'm not sure oh how that what eventuates from that so this group of us who have to step into the metal and where the responsibility of talking through way doing all obese but even this is new to us as will the gangs sane as changing and evolving and wise. We haven't same same since the Nineteen Seventies Jared Gilbert is the director of criminal justice at the University of Canterbury who's written and researched extensively on New Zealand Zealand gangs. He's also worried about the recent violent crime in South Oakland and he wrote an opiate and the Herald on this very issue a couple of weeks back out of that AH is rapid growth extraordinary growth for the guy is an unprecedented but we haven't seen it really since the earliest years of gang formation and maturation duration in New Zealand. It is stunning. We're seeing gross and many of the traditional gangs strongly was in the minimum. Oh groups that have been with us for a very long time what Hell's angels they hate hunters only significant elements of gross but some traditional gangs thanks have a not just growing but they actually faded and full and why so in this period of remarkably route health for the gangs they have been and some gangs having survived and largely because they haven't adapted and they have been the victims of mission freedom dominions but those who Hudson Vas have grown but their own. There's also new gangs being formed. This is a kid and significant pot because of some inputs from Australia so the rebels shot the up set up numerous check throughout the country now. We're not said the rebels came here it up here. That's a lot Australia's largest outlaw motorcycle club but they didn't sit up here with Australian. I actually sit up with New Zealand and being aided needed today. other five one cycle thought. I want these deportees at a strategy meeting with gang connections who establishing or joining and gangs and New Zealand there are a number effective play but the APP shorter's. We're in a period of massive growth. What else is happening. When we we see these resurgences well. The one concert cleans all of that is that when you have a game we know this by looking at ah winding an expansion mode you know in a crowded room someone invariably gets elbowed and so we tend to see conflict the crew with expansion that actually inevitable. I would argue when a gang with seeing that you know we wouldn't be surprised but given these conditions additions. That's always going to be an outcome. Jared sees that around two thousand six there was a similar spike of violence and South Oakland which he sees makes thanks for an interesting reference point in trying to figure out what's happening now and how to solve it what the government did is. They Fund wasn't particularly expensive. They funded some clothes. I sort of social work as a straightway is kind of to detect youth what kind of people to to coordinate existing services so in this country. There's some really good things that occur within pockets of state agencies or with an engineer's they're doing doing some really important work on on single issues if you will but we not to get to the bottom of these types of problems you need wraparound around services you need a coordinated approach and so that is to bring state agencies to work together so they're not overlapping sit and services so that so that they can unify gets and service provision and we can do the job the very tough job and trying to prevent crime and so that's what the government did they just just put people in place to coordinate the services to see cooperation occurring within existing India and government services says and that's what they should be doing this because last time at worked three years after those youth work were brought in there was a review and that review found uh-huh that gang activity and South Oakland hit decreased and correlated with police tighter in two thousand and even two thousand eight which what should the apprehensions for those under the age of twenty had fallen by nine percent well. The nationwide average was increasing three percents so we've got some high data to support that during the period that US action plan was in place. things were improved dramatically. I we can't tell exactly how much of that is related to the Action Plan and how much other initiatives or other factors that appearing in community time but the correlation citizen certainly exists that the relatively modern amount of money but just the smartest strategy that was put into south at that time to correlate with the the the data one Konig know that without Christian short answer youth workers seems to help last time so is the solution Russian as simple as funding more youth workers again official Collins. I think they're the start of the solution and the people that WHO Active Act as intermediaries on my behalf of people that are go to church what used to be in gangs and then became youth workers and so thou well trusted that trusted by I only gangs because they've got someone who's not in any particular government group or in a political party of he's not seen as the police and they can talk with him so youth casses at the very front of what we should be doing beyond that we need community leadership. That's going to be trusted and that's going to mean we work with people as much as we can so the idea of where I'm trying to get eldest to engage with one of the gangs on promoting language classes and culture classes as the first time that ever had a politician comment so I think they're willing to talk. There are people all over the city that we can pull an at different times. You're going to need different people but we've got to get the PEOP- the right people and all I'm doing is just saying man he we are. I'm one of them. There's lots of others but we let's talk to the people that you trust and what if we don't we do you. How do you say the situation as it is now developing I see worsening sinning and it might get to the point where the gang that's trying to sit up just think who cares and they've got AH. Tillery we ninety eight. They've got access to guns and if we don't do something now I think it will just get worse use. I don't know what just gets worse looks like but I think with the number of shootings we've seen this probably enough hints and their activity. Tippety to suggest to us if we do nothing now. It's not going to be healthy for our community. I have a young daughter. That's probably why I'm doing this. A because of course I'm fearful for WHO. I don't want our kids to be caught in the big foil when the crossfire and I'm really scared for our children and brain development theory we are naturally tribal and and the research that we conduct ten years ago they youth gang so the police as a game in fact they saw them as the most well resourced gang in the country tree and people listening to your show will be shocked by the thinking they're not getting the data protect us but that's how the young people viewed the police and so I think we we are always going to be tribal and allegiances in the way we operate as people because that's what the brain does that looks for someone or something that looks similar to us. X. talked similar to us so we're always going to have these groupings. We get a lot of negative priests about gangs but I actually think they can do some really good as as long as we're working alongside them so I think getting rid of them or eliminating is. I don't think that's ever going to happen. Some of the young people see the churches and South Oakland gangs as well so when you start to understand the way they conceptualize the world. It gives us the equipment in the armory to be able to deal with how they're thinking. How do you want to see South Oakland represented than news news when you hear about something something South Oakland. What what do you want to hear. I think a hiatus might be nice. Just not have South Oakland Oakland mentioned it all just kind of get us avenues and lead everyone receipt and then after maybe a year of not having anything at a South Oakland and the news start talk about the things where lives are being changed where people are going into good jobs were not the poorest ward in the city where Al people pull a flourishing and thriving and bit so I want us to be represented. That's the detail today. I'm Alex Ashton. The detail retail is brought to you by Newsroom Co dot indeed made possible by the Arendt's eat indoneia innovation fund the subscribe button to stay across the detail everyday everyday and if you're an apple plays us of writing as it helps other listeners find us this episode was engineered by Stag poll and produced by Alexia Russell missile. Our associate producer is the key muscle. Nobody Cucchi Arnold.

South Oakland South Oakland Oakland Oakland South Oakland Story New Zealand China South Auckland Steph Oakland assault Australia Alex stone Collins Jared Gilbert Darnell crescent Tom Monaco Selfo Clinton Monaco Ward Aena
Australian whistleblowers under attack through the media

RNZ: The Detail

23:03 min | 2 years ago

Australian whistleblowers under attack through the media

"This is the detail I'm Sharon brick Kelly, and I'm Alex Ashton today, the crackdown on stray Lian media in a strategy of right now. We live in a country where the fiddle government has putting place Louis that encourage federal police to ride the media that's neutral, as I can express it astray. Leeann federal police or eight p the sweet conductor toe high profile race on June loose. Then an dramatic development rated the Sydney headquarters. And as a ride happening right here at the right now just a hundred or so that way, bigger inane, Ian Welsh's, a senior law Electra at the university of Queensland. She takes me through what happened yet started on Tuesday when seven I pay officers righted, the harm a camera residents of News, Corp, journalist and Smith host and. When through toll to cookbooks computer have my fire houses, analogy seven officers along the law reaches into a camera journalists hun. The federal police came knocking on Annika Smith door trying to discover who leaked classified papers to the News Corp, political editor for story published early last year. And that was in connection with a article Annika published last I pro- revealing based on late secret documents sacred memo revealing the ustralian signals directorate was potentially going to get the palace to spy on a stray and citizens. For the first time, don't give it some time on us cope with stamped with a top secret ustralian is only classification, detailing bid by fizz to grant the electronic spy agency. The in signals record the power to spy inside Estrada's borders later on Tuesday to J bay. Gentlest been Ford him was reveal that when he talked about some classified information around a stray Lian, barred arrivals asylum, say his he'd gotten a coal from the department. Climate says and be told that he was going to be subject to an investigation. We broke store yesterday about six bucks thing on the wife from Sri Lanka to Astrada, the officials were polite, but foon, they will hunting the his source if that involves a police investigation, and your involvement in that investigation, then that's the white might end up. I don't seem very Larry and then on Wednesday, I pay offices, righted, the I base as Seaney headquarters where what happened is the arrived here at about eleven thirty three IFP offices at the front of the in Sydney with a warrant, John Lyons as the heat of investigative journalism, and he intend to the room with six police officers and several lawyers, he lived halfway through to talk live about what was going on when I was in there. I began live tweeting. I thought it was important for people to know this, you know, this is not a confidential thing. They've come into our building. And then at one point about an hour into one of the head of the IFP team looked at me and said, so you're tweeting, I said, yes, I am many said, why you're doing that? And I said, because I think the staff and the public should know what's going on here. I said, I wouldn't tweet out any confidential material any operational matters or the names of any possible sources, which, of course, I wouldn't do as journalist. And so he said, fine. So bending this several hours now. So right at the moment up on level eleven this building, I've just lifted to do this interview. There are six P offices and about four Louis. They have downloaded nine thousand two hundred and fourteen documents. I counted them and they are now going through them sit up a huge screen and the going through Email by Email. It's quite extraordinary, his Rebecca a ninety. Well, she gain all the Tweety can say the video fades at the office is going in there. They had a warrant to normally search the computer network, but that enabled the to modify delayed ole to files across the computer network, and it'd be just general such as Asia palette. And that was in relation to publication from twenty seventeen code the game file where the had obtained hundreds of pages of late documents, so again classified material from the strain defense force revealing some pretty horrific behavior on the part of the story, and fficials, specialises, Iran, Afghanistan. So these three secret Avin's but is it they linked have happened in the space of two days? Why they happened now for the only link that same Sabet here is that the IS pay seems to have decided to crack down on lakes and it's not. Doing that through targeting directly at the departments about going up to the journalists and using their quite enormous national security palace to tug at the journalists to go through this files to try and identify the cultured. Actual sources figure out, who is given them sacred flash. That is the question as suppose from New Zealand in know, things awfully close and shocking, and I guess we thinking, what law allows them to do this. Well ustralia has more counterterrorism than anywhere else in the world. And we're the only liberal democracy that doesn't have any national Cofide rights protection. So there are hope bunch of different Lewis. That allow the IS pay to go in and investigate national security conscious things one of the laws that I've certainly used here is computer access warrants, and they're quite far reaching warrants that were updated only late last year, they've been around for round for a little longer, and that allows them knowingly to access a computer to access all the computers on a network and modify files delayed files and install spyware and all sorts of things. So that's one of the will another little that potentially is in play. Here is the secrecy provisions that were introduced relatively recently and he's going to be actually used by the introduction of those offenses has a bold into the police. So it's now a crime as of last July in a stray Leah. It was always friend on lake sacred information. That was not good thing. But we now have specific secrecy offenses, where communicating or dealing with information that's likely to cool his home to a stray. Elliot's interest is a crime. If you were a public seven if you went for the government. So that's a risk to the sources of the information that I've committed a con-. That's probably what the ISP are investigating or something similar. It's also a crime anyone else. So the general public and journalists to then communicate classified information and Fordham, for example to J bay when hey said, they'd been intercepted by rival on radio. That's classified information. He's communicated it. He's committed the secrecy offense. There is a defense for journalists are and not involve journalist, proving once they prosecuted the night can try rely on defense by proving that they communicated the tonight because. They were journalist and because they raise Nibley believed it today in the public interest. Maybe that means national security, maybe that makes accountability. It's a it's not clear how that how that taste would actually pan out and your article today. You quote the New York Times as cooling it a dangerous act of intimidation towards those committed to telling uncomfortable truths. But then you're saying that people who are familiar with the Estrella national security law or not so surprised. So have you been expecting something like this to happen, Lois and the media industry here, actually have been worried that something like this will happen for awhile, so lust? Yeah. We saw twenty seven espionage, San Suu as well as the secrecy offenses in foreign interference lows. All introduced. We also saw a huge ramping up of data of so one thing that I find a little. Surprising is the IFP has taken these heavy handed approach of doing right when really, they have a lot of Cova palace, especially if they working alongside icier covet house, just spy on journalists. But as as it was reintroduced people were making submissions to government media was saying these two broad these Lewis could could work against him Kristie against privacy against freedom of speech, and the government was saying, no, no. We need to target terrorists, and we need these Lewis to target pedophile ring, so don't worry way going to respect him oversee and use them too much. So in that sense, we saw it coming, because we knew the pal is with it, but it's very shocking that they've been used against journalists against specifically against journalists who were critical of government in order to identify their sources and these. Been using such a heavy handed way. And what are the implications here? I mean is this is going to skate June a stall from doing this kind of investigative work? I think that's really likely look journalists now the value in what they're doing holding the government to account acting as the fourth estate. But if every time that you reveal something that might be classified or sensitive, you get a cold from that apartment phase or they pay is going to raid, your building your house. Sure that's gonna scare some gentlest off. Particularly those who on protected by big organizations, like news in the I base as I think, more scary. His on is the impact it's going to have almost sources of information. And these are the people who say, stuff going wrong get worried about things that might be misconduct. They ABC journalists. They were reporting on war crimes. So this. Is relying on people seeing things going wrong. And then having the guts to tell someone about it to talk to journalists I think that's where the chilling effect is going to happen. So as you can imagine stray leeann journalists really on each about this. Absolutely. I also spoke to Chris Merritt. He's the legal fears editor at the Australian and he was saying he's really roiled up about a couple of things. One is how the government's distancing itself from all of this. But also, what, hey sees as a double standard, and the Lua only m explain material publish by journalists on national security can be defensible on public interest grounds. But the sign material provided by public to journalists is not defensible by the whistle blow by the public servant. So what the situation is, is, this is have looks and this is all speculation just please together from what's happened. It looks as though the rides, I'm debt, identifying or providing evidence of the of the, the whistle blowers, so. Well, it's quite clear that reporters probably have a substantial defense. The problem is that the whistle blah doesn't so it seems to be a team to identify and provide evidence for the prosecution of whistle blowers, even the outcome of the entire event is the publication of material that in both instances I five was clearly in the public interest to journalists working in Australia at the moment with all of this going on, is there a since that they need to be more careful people worried about it. Well, I've had discussions with discussion last night with a lawyer about what we should be doing to take the confidentiality of sources my reporters got smart smartphones, and I had with all sorts of things on us, and that's exactly what the, the IFP was after. When I conducted their first ride on a reporter after the Sunday News Corporation publications. So it it's it will inevitably late the changes in the why journalists conduct themselves have records and NYMEX and telephone numbers. My students have got hundreds if not thousands of telephone numbers, and details of conversations Deitz that might all have to change the moment this gap in the lure, and it's a gap in the law, that provides the incentive for the police to ride report is to get the identities of people. So even though report is not fi directly face charges. It's not a very pleasant experience to have saved knife, the offices. Tramping around your house for seven hours, pulling Pat, your, your underwear drawer, in the case of one of the female report is concerned, it, it just doesn't pass my stuff, the label of fury inside the, the media industry in this country, is, is hard to imagine. It's, it's just completely unreasonable conduct by the IFP, however made to be kept in perspective. The I could see simply doing what they should do, which is apply in force the little so is it the case now where the police on one side, you've got the media on the other and Eva run suit of looking to the government to think, well, what are you gonna do about this, because, yes, I think that's right. I think the, the government right now is in a corner, there media police. Goal responses to style. Look nothing to do with us. We don't control place. And that's true. But what they do control, the lure that the police are required to apply if they continue like this, the Tamai assessment that the structure of the little provides an ongoing in Saint for the police to conduct more rights into the indeterminate future, unless the lures changed this technique will be used repeatedly to crackdown on leaks from the federal government. It's it clearly works. If, if you're able to badge in to report his home and sees the telephone, and they computer guys through it and, and find the data of the people who have been revealing information that he's clearly in both instances so far in the public interest. The police will continue to do that. So this is such fresh news. And it makes you wonder if something like this could happen here. I thought exactly the same thing when I heard the news. So I spoke to issue Lucia are you probably know your name she teaches media law at the university of Canterbury, and I offered what's the situation in New Zealand containing, we need a media. The subject of food is by police or other state bodies media do have a really strong public role of keeping us informed. And it might mean they may have sources they need to petite, and they want to ensure that those sources are going to stay with them, and keep coming back and keep giving them information, but often the sources will want to remain anonymous and every time and use room or junior house and goods sewage thin, there's always a risk gonna fear that teams who will be put off. And so what we call a chilling effect on freedom of expression. In terms of the predictions that we have in New Zealand. Four protecting sources because it is a cornerstone, new journalism, people being able to come forward and speak to journalists. What do we have here? Protecting people. Activity in the Syrian recent news, which is good. There's a tune in Eden, say six and sixty eight that contains a bicyc- presumption that if a journalist is in a relationship with the sole that can be regarded as confidential and there's an understanding that they won't disclose the sources identity and other information about them the junos should not be able to be compelled any coot to, to give that information. I'm fortunate that what we call a presumption that can be overruled by judge. And there is a season and in the same provisions which sees it as long as there is great public interest, bicycling, and the doing us being ordered to disclose in a judge my older that, so just have to engage in a way, in prices, it's not it's not just an ABA treat decision. They have to weigh up is there a risk to the source is there a risk to sauces Jeanneret and with the chill. Feet against what is the public interest in the state, who seeking information, getting information. Examples of win. This is being tasted in New Zealand. Yeah. If he is ago, in case it was involved involved the came alive programme and they hit interview, the person who seat that they were had stolen some warm meters and the police were looking for that person and later on a team to get the cable, I program to disclose information that would allow the police to week with they were basically pursuing the right the right individuals and the judge in that case when it came to cool indicated that it looked the only way that police could get information would be through Campbell live making some sort of disclosure, but the judge was obviously disinclined for motoring any of the media to disguise. And so I think the party's away to talk more than see if there was any information that could be given that would be helpful in the end Joan Campbell was able to give the police some information, but it didn't amount disguising. Sources. So, so it was a case. I think we the cool being type of bait could to not forth, the media to just blows, even though they do actually have the power to do that. But I think more recently NICKY Hager's, when some very important decisions from the cooled around suits worm, which was executed by the police on his property in relation to suicide for his book, duty politics. He's ago and that was a t- now which in Nicaragua wasn't AC, but they could've injury held when Nikki huggy challenged the suit and the search warrant that the warrant hadn't been obtained properly and the coot indicated possibly him being carried out properly is. The house. They went through every drawer or three my disc through every paper I could find trying to find out who my source was and luckily, people probably noticed that's already being found to have been totally. Unbelievable. What people didn't know it was that they also came after my travel information case trick time where I've been on my banking information, case C, which had been sitting something like that. And my mail and tried to get my and they went after my daughter's firing that at all this intrusion to try and find out a source the fix on my family was kind of chilling glomming glum unhappy feeling for weeks. The Majorie date states that if either a warrant is paint against media New Zealand. The officer issuing the warrant has to be told that it is a journalist who is the subject, they weren't. And, you know, they might be issues around chilling, and that sort of thing, so who even issuing the warrant his to be given the opportunity to consider it fully. And then even if the police Gita warrant, they have to carry out the sewage very Keithly. They not allowed to stoop any news gathering on news, making pro ceases, and they, they have to follow the word to the Lisa in the word. Mustn't be too broad, a mess and taking and must be fishing expedition just to see anything can be found history, very clear why the place one they weren't. And they have to go about every carefully. Do you think? The same thing could have happened in New Zealand that we've just seen the. Well. The reporting around the AP see it makes it sound as the you know, this was a raid on the VC, and it was carried out in a raid, like why I sit anything that out or would heartfully prevent that happening. It sounded as the sewage was carried it in the heavy Hindu, dry in a way, that is risky to suicide and the gathering information. Sorry, I think New Zealand recent your height Fleetwood petite against sort of thing is reporting that the sutures cre-. Actually counterproductive for the government for this to have happened now because lies in the hands of cenex would tell the government's behind it, and the reelected, and now the crackdown, and all horrible reporters who have been causing them embarrassment over the last year, or so, if there's a silver lining to this, that people will maybe take seriously, the fee, is that the media industry that journalists have been expressing Brett because they laws and the nature. Protect radio freight up. That's the detail today on Sharon break. Kelly in Alexandersson. The detail is brought to you by newsroom dot co dot made possible by the Aren Zied indeed on the innovation fund hit the subscribe button to stay across the detail every day. And if you're on eople, please leave us a rating as it helps other listeners, find us. And of course, we're on Facebook and Twitter to this episode was engineered by Jeremy veal, and produced by Lexi, Russell, those roll the dates today, cocky, theon.

government IFP New Zealand Sharon brick Kelly Lewis Annika Smith reporter officer J bay Ian Welsh Sydney Lian Asia News Corp university of Queensland Louis New York Times Estrada Sri Lanka
This River is a person  Maori knowing meets Western science

Science Friction

29:37 min | 8 months ago

This River is a person Maori knowing meets Western science

"Hi Natasha Mitchell with you for science friction where a river becomes a person with rights is the legal right to fully express itself as a river. That's what happened in New Zealand three years ago, and you're about to get a really strong sense of why we've a profound meeting of minds between scientists in New Zealand to geologists to ocean scientists to the memory to them Parkey that's what Fella in Alto New Zealand so. Let's start at the beginning. Of everything. Do. Not, a coup native Buki Not Pupo, Kate, he came from the source of growth, the rising, not to he he tomorrom reisen sort not Imahara in model from rising thought the memory not inning Iro to Monaco from memory the mind heart car who WANNA cut from the mind hat. Desire. Couple took whole knowledge becomes conscious dwells in dim light. And the darkness images Coho to from nothingness came the first 'cause. I'm possessed. Nothingness. unbound. Nothingness. The Ho- of growth. The Ho- of life. Stays and clear space in the sky merges that stands here to nee thought APODACA. The yearly the midday the blaze of the Dave from the Scott Martina Theater Huron. That's part of a Maori creation story read by Mao Demand Dr. Dan he corolla who is accomplished geologist or if system scientist Jota coordinator or. Okay. Finally. One is Dan who could work at the University of Auckland. He's also culture commissioner for the New Zealand National Commission Phoenix go and he's the thing when Dan studies the US geological forms it's rivers it's mountains as a mountain man he's also studying family when we think about rivers and mountains we think of them as both In the physical sense. A mountain a but also in the familial since as they can they are ancient relatives, they our ancestors, the rivers existed. Before me as an individual and the mountains existed before me as an individual and I will exist after gone as well so far more enduring, and so it makes sense that we we've you them as as. Our ancestors, brea part of the world we seasons of Mountains rivers. Everything has what we call mody or life force. This is marine ecologist, mallory? Woman Associate Professor Cool Poll Book Curator Culprit Joaquin could. Our Hero okra minor greeting. My name is couldn't go I come from the mountains of truth our wacky to cut you off. There are why heater the revisit Mitee food fucked Bonnie white the newly implement our in the canoes of my ancestors are Matthau to NPR. I'm an associate professor at the University of Waikato in Mata a Marine Ecology kilter. That expression courreges used Martorana Mari. Is Hard to encapsulate it refers to Mari Knowledge wise of knowing everything in the universe pretty much visible ending visible and of which we are apart. So humans and superior. We're not secrets we're not isolated and we're not the rulers of the world. In fact, it's the complete opposite. We are part of the word of anything with the lowest denominator that evolved as that of key Taika we have to innocent innate responsibility, which is passed down through generations that alcohol is too. Key Food World said it when we hate it over to the next generation, it is a good estate if not better than what we received from our ancestors. So today you have to be intimately connected with a piece off the hall as opposed to save approach. But if you're a scientist studying natural phenomena, you can't as you'll family, where does that leave your objectivity or I think one of the strengths of science as that you know you try to be detached observer. Political venues free. And I think also scientists try and achieve it. But I don't think it's achievable. Ben, that's what we're testing at here. If you're a first nation scientist to the oral law spiritual stories, you've grown up with have a place in your number crunching data collecting life in science, and what about the rest of science does he need to open its eyes to the data from daytime could be hidden inside those ancient oral stories most indigenous Norwegian authorities say all of it was just disregarded as being Meadow Legion has been implausible lovely traditional stories and what does mess don't, and that approach is the absolute detail and rigor and process that sits behind. Much, indigenous knowledge for many years with my research. I didn't really advertise my work because I didn't implement a pure science approach to research my research has muttering Ahmadi. Supported by Western science and it's taken. A yeah whatever. To actually have confidence to stand up because I was nervous I was new listed. Other scientists would receive my approach and AL efforts and our results is Lisa but some days you just. Over time, you just have to take a deep breath in stand up and say into clear this in have faith and confidence in the fact that our digits knowledge is not any real, but it's relevant. But also that knowledge is passed down even language that's Eilly into science a big historical events in geology like volcanoes and earthquakes or in the Ocean Sinarmas, cyclones, currents, they all get documented but through oral stories. So in one Canadian province, for example, visit the ancient story of a Grizzly bad tearing a path down the side of a hill uprooting trees in the landscape that maps onto a large debris fly that happened three and a half thousand years ago home. There's an example in Hawaii cultural chance about a volcano goddess Pele in an ongoing battle with her sister. Cleaved open four, hundred of volcanic history for leading vulcanologist don't Swanson and colleagues window and the Tame. Pace together the all history eruptive record, and then they looked at the mapped geologic eruptive history. He will more options in the oral history than they had recorded on the maps. And using the information in those orchestrates they win and found those particular eruptive history. So there's a key point data. Mike is that people don't think that all knowledge traditions. Trustworthy. Whereas in fact, sometimes can be more accurate for source. Then them work that you know great vulcanologists and. Can Do, and if they have ignored does oral histories that's an entire data set that they would have missed out on. Absolutely you're absolutely right Natasha it was more accurate because people had seen it. But to the point now is we need a framework that is based upon the world view upon which the knowledge-based to teast that knowledge. So if we just took science to explain, Pillai, having a fight with his sister and having an argument with tunnel. That knowledge would be dismissed outright. We are as of yet she understand its code if occasion you can you can delve deeper into the knowledge understand what it is. Early Polynesian navigators made their way through treacherous waters to New Zealand with great skill and I figured large descriptions of phages, emotions, and landscapes. They use one of those navigators was my end sister toy the hurt he which means toy. Or Toi Kayaker and everywhere he went he nine them with Mahdi nines in almost all of our coastal molly names talked to specific events of sided with the ocean at that place and. The Bay of Plenty in New Zealand its original name is Donna a toy the Huta he the ocean of toy to whoever he. Takes, great skill can imagine doing that without a GPA's celestial information with the wind ocean waves swell for navigation. We still use that knowledge today. The legent retaliation chief coupet said to have arrived in New Zealand in non twenty-five ID is central to. So there's the story of his battle with John Octopus. In, Cook Strait between new. Zealand's North and South Islands. The slain octopus is becoming too small islands. died. Actually splitters is which landed onto the lane the top the South Island Issue and so. So the full name of the valley when you're moving as you're coming into the south into the mob Island is the phone name is not Fawzi with a freaking of ninety all of the eyes of the. Of Mutiny so they acknowledged which way back then if you're talking about coupet in his journey from Hiti to altered or we still utilize that knowledge today and I will say as an oceangoing Chicago, it's one thing to city a desk with a few hundred megabytes of data and pushing some numbers around which is what modern oceanography does. This sees physical oceanography associate professor, Craig Stevens mean it's another thing to be out. On a vessel, you know on the wide ocean where it does have the perspectives and a life of its own those other viewpoints. There's other frames of reference of thinking about the natural world setting are much easier to grasp and to work with connecting to some of the oral histories where an octopus would get washed up the science connections. There are there more difficult but they make for really useful contexts in explaining a system. To reflect on the language used in western science. The took him out the whirlpools in Cook Strait. Win Looking at fluid mechanics and mixing we refer to cats is when we look at particular kind of eighties, that's that's driven by Shia flow. So strong gradient, Tim Velocity. So you know this terminology and backstory on both sides that I think we're getting better as a joined system in in accepting different perspectives. Is it difficult though for you Craig, when your grappling with a body of knowledge that deals with the metaphysical, the insane the intangible impossible to measure in the way that you measure the world this must be a challenge, a confrontation for you as a physical scientist for shore and you sort of have to let them run a little bit in parallel. It's it's quite a journey when I left at light or strategy thirty odd years ago I really think about the growing up in the outland of Ghana people didn't really think about those sorts of perspectives but I do think it's not so much about the the here and now, and it is really about opening the eyes of the next generation I. Think this is a multi agenda. It's such a big thing that it's a multigenerational challenge that we have to work on. Craig with Marine Ecologist COULDA. Paul, Burke and colleagues has been looking for a shared language and all linked to their fascinating piper. On the science fiction website Craig's also with the National Institute for Water and Atmospheric Research Altero in new. Zealand. But why does this dialogue between Marie and Pakistani scientists and they wise of knowing matter For Dan he Kerala that question is deeply personal as a young scientist. He led a geological mapping expedition with the British Antarctic survey and then went on to investigate Paleo climate change wallow finishing the PhD. My aunties, we're very proud of. Boasting to everybody and they made me print off copies of my thesis for them. But my uncles were like. When you going to do is something of any use noting in. My project was on paleontology and and you're the message was kind of half and juice, but there was. Serious, and so it was both recognition in. The PhD has been a lot about me and my aspirations. But also you know what could I give back? What could I contribute back to to my family to communities to the nation and so that's that's what lead me on my journey, your of working with science and with working with Matt Odin. Kuruppu Paul Burke is driven by the same quest, her trod or e we are coastal. So the ocean has always been a part of her life. Of Asians. I I guess would be to be able to hold onto the history of my ancestors and to be able to give you marine world through two lenses to Ahmadi lanes and always than science. But Kura, actually marine science later in life I went diving I will not to for Coyote Wide Ireland which tragically erupted in December of last year burn many as a decade. Saw Guy I. We free diving and I. Then I was educate I was a lecture, an education way been on the boat trip back home to the mainland I thought this. Is, what I wanted to do, but I don't WanNa just guy for a dive and say why what pretty fishes I want to know about everything there is tonight within reason, I want to know the current the tides, the pull of the moon, and so I I was assigned is a lecturer in big school is a marine science student with five children. Wow That is some pull. What can I tell you? So you've been working with local communities tells about the battle between the staff and the muscles up on the North Island. We. Face as A liver NAM style which Roy, predators of shellfish and in particular green rip muscles so in. An a little place eastern by of Plainfield. Island, we have a harbor they used to hey way back in two thousand and Sylvan. We interviewed Madi allders or Kmart to US using motto during Mardi and asked the. Traditional knowledge of the shellfish beds in the harbor. And then using GPS to map the rafe and Mussel populations over time the changes was stock and in two thousand and Sieber. An estimated one, hundred, twelve million muscles in their reef. Fast forward to two, thousand and nineteen there were an estimated just under eighty thousand muscles lifting the entire harbor. The Colin's a mixture of runoff sedimentation ocean warming all side, and one of the Muscle Obi's was an estimated one point, two, million see size or the equivalent of six, hundred, seventy, two tons of stay size and just one tiny part of the muscle bid. But Maureen formed and led science seems to be offering the muscles a risky line literally, and we have started to use natural resources as opposed to may made products and how like spit lines. Speed lines, muscle grow lines, which baby mussels attach to incongruity in the water and they don't touch the bottom said the size eight, the muscles on the lines we have strategies, a natural resource materials, New Zealand flakes, or even carriage train hangman. The water muscles are and having babies in growing on these lines we are also minimizing Mike Replacement pollution now harbor in food and therefore announced dowse so and it's all just from intergenerational traditional knowledge from the elders saying to us this is how I would do it, and so I, it's your way in this actually. Powerful the knowledge has been powerful is actually last week we have discovered the last year we had one traditional muscle be lifts in the entire harbour after a decade of disappearing muscles. As of last week, we have discovered three new muscle beads. It's about understanding with with the mutual benefits loy for the work you had how do you make it to way? So exactly how do you make it to? Various different communities people think that if you with Mahdi people, we all see the world with one eye but we have our own individual agenda as well and it's about recognizing, but it's actually about flipping the focus of the research baked to what's important. So what's the reason we are here today we here because our harbor is hooting. So that means what is the true focus focus is the. All other agendas must be put aside while we actually try to come up with a way that brings together to secret knowledge systems bring them together to help. Our harbor and by happy now, harbor we have the south's and our grandchildren in the future. Clair. Wilkinson is a young American living in our thorough and New Zealand doing her PhD at the University of Canterbury on how rivers he'll after an earthquake in geologists speak that's how fluvial systems respond to major disturbances by the way but alaka healing metaphor. Beta. My field area is the Conway River which is. In Canterbury it's near Kaikoura. Kaikoura. During. The two thousand Sixteen Kaikoura earthquakes. There were a lot of landslides triggered in that river basin. And so I'm trying to see if I can estimate the rates at which the river is moving that landslide sediment and translate that into timescale. Over which the river will Evacuate or remove all of fatty inside sediment and so in that in that way, can kind of think of a landscape he laying after it has dealt with all of this sediment because the job of a river is to move move sediment in the technical scientific perspective that sort of the role of the river and how the conversations with. Maori Communities Shaping how you approach your science a lot of conversations that I've had. Have just made me rethink. The the phrase landscape healing and think about some of the terms that. Geologists Geo morphology used to describe landscapes on make. It's made me wonder if we are kind of perpetuating. Ideas technical ideas of landscapes through the terminology that we use mom, and so if had a lot of conversations about what healthy landscapes are and how landscapes he'll after major disturbances such as earthquakes and a lot of the conversations I've had have made me shift my way of thinking from. A discrete event such as an earthquake in a rebound of the landscape to. Just I'm kind of pulses in the landscapes life cycle, the landscapes lifespan So I think of it more as a cyclic process now as opposed to a linear process as I've done before if that makes sense Dan geologist son just willing to do blue sky science and to understand the landscape for the for the sake of understanding they're often employed by. Corporations by the mining industry they sci he's being deployed and utilized in a corporate context in a prophet context and I mean certainly in Australia you know. We've seen Rio Tinto. Recently, blow up a forty six thousand year old sacred site in Yukon Joel Gorging Nwea, only to apologize traditional on his after perfect for me sanders standing for the misunderstanding. and I wonder within this relationship between science and how we use landscape. How we extract resources from Ad Landscape? which you know the mining industry would argue that we will benefit from those resources extracted from Atlanta skype. Then this is where it gets point. He doesn't it this dialogue between science and culture. Does does get point to let me start to think about. extractive industries in particular now, Mike Mistake Ma Mahdi engaged in the extractive industries they employed many stone quarries around. The country fact they were they were well understood all maps of a widow things. Once again, Code Avoidance Story Form We also utilize shellfish and trees and materials, and so we actually all those. Those last few examples are renewable. When we're thinking about some of the starring technology in the starring materials th they went with butter. The difference thea was it was on a needs bipartisan and a one spices. And I think that's where you can start to get pointed the other patch. As it, of course, it's an tawny different when instead of you're thinking about me making a decision. Around what happens to this land with that piece of land all whether you're talking about your grandmother. Has Hell Mountain View Lane which is Papa to on Oku. It's a very different conversation when you frame it that way if we just have a look at what's happening now with respect to increase greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and some of the impacts that was seeing around the world, there's a couple of things that come to mind. When I think we need to draw from all the knowledge that's available to try and make the best decisions draw from all the knowledge pregnant veracity and the precision and the accuracy of their knowledge bases. Of course, you need to have some confidence in it but once established. They need you to join for more of that knowledge. The technical. Solutions, law the. But I think it's the philosophy we bring in if we see if we recognize that. That, an indigenous approach. Indigenous approach and indigenous knowledge is going to be helpful in that spice. Then I, think we need to scale that up and recognize were she all indigenous to this planet? And let's dig into further I mean for sampling seventeen, a major river in New Zealand. Won. A newly was was granted the. The legal status of Person Hood, this captured world headlines is absolutely fascinating. How significant was that decision? And I'm interested in the in how it might change. How we view that Riva Scientifically, as much as culturally the change itself took some years for the government of the TAW and for the the New River People's. That the different tribes all align and and since and have the fuck up by the since it connection with with the river. Took some years to do but that was on the Dick of about one hundred, ninety years. Since the Treaty Watson was signed saying actually outcome connection with. Rivers is being broken, and so I just WANNA acknowledge that generations of that went into that. But in practical terms. Giving the river legal personality. Has Changed the way that we actually view ourselves alongside the river. And and what it means, and this is back to the point that clear was was making nearly a one of the roles of river as it shifts sediment and saw these are Roy for a river to be a river. That sticks something. That's this this ruling has signaled. These for river to shift sued him into long these for Riveta flood because that's just a river being revenue for a river to to to shift its course through time. And I think for at least for Geo Morphology and for Geoscientists, it's really shifted. The way we approach the talk to questions we have and also. The process of undertaking that research is in this suggestion that a river has GM morphology. Writes that it has brought to a river to be a river to flow to convey sediment to adjust. To be healthy to evolve that is a whole mindset shift. Isn't it and I wonder then how it's Affected, how scientists need to view that river need to research that river it is absolutely fundamentally changed the way. We view relationship with rivers. And very much trying to put you know the the Cinta instead of humans. Having management all this this. Thing this physical entity. Now there's a complete shift in thinking what a really love. As in the act itself, the one we were direct tail to poor act. It talks about the the the river flowing from the mountains to the sea it's physical in its metaphysical elements as an indivisible whole. I think the best way to describe how this change in mindset has changed. My way of thinking about the river that I'm studying is instead of asking what can I learn about this forever? I tend to think more. Now. What can I? Learn from this river. Constituents myself sometimes as having Clinton too hot. Demore Molly Pot. Pack Yeah more more European Duroy and New Zealand. ANC Street. Pot. And from what. Help It's more science training and and Tamari is increased exposure to an experience with the motto Donna. And without those and balance you know I'm not. I'm not really going to be operating at full functioning in and it's only now that I'm beginning explore. How those come together. Thing can do time to kind of work that I do. Often get asked for buyer and they say, Oh, tell us what you're discipline his hair. We describe what you do, and that's actually how I see myself anymore I see myself as a souvenir lane. Is As souvent of the forests as a souvenir, the rivers. As. A servant of the people. and. So and fulfilling my role or draw from both those knowledge systems. To try and make the very best we can and I'd like to think that. And drawing together those two systems. Credit something new that might have been unimaginable before we vice two bodies of knowledge together. Thanks to the scientists for joining me today geologists, Dan Guerrero and Klay Wilkinson Ocean Scientists Qura Paul Burke and Craig Stevens and you can get to amazing race and pipe is from the science fiction website highly recommend writing them. You can talk to me on twitter at Natasha Mitchell and check out a great new podcast series from ABC Science and Radio National Patient Zero Search for our in presents wherever you get your podcasts chaffee now.

New Zealand scientist Craig Stevens Dr. Dan Natasha Mitchell associate professor geologist Dan Guerrero Paul Burke Mike Mistake Ma Mahdi US Molly Pot Mountains rivers Mari Knowledge Conway River University of Auckland Roy Cook Strait Kate
Malaysias Game of Thrones, andthree new cases of political interference in New Zealand

Between The Lines

28:52 min | 1 year ago

Malaysias Game of Thrones, andthree new cases of political interference in New Zealand

"They get I. It's Tom Switzer here. From between the law and sprite too heavy company now today on the show Asia it recently issued a warning on unprecedented threats to Australia from foreign interference. But we're not the only ones facing that fresh take a trip across the ditch to New Zealand where there are currently three investigations underway into foreign interference. Stay with this for that. Am I chat with Professor Anne? Marie Brady but first to Malaysia which has a new prime minister seventy two year old my eden. Yesen it's less than a week after the abrupt resignation of the world's most national later. This is the ninety four year old Muhammad Muhammad that plunged Malaysian politics into turmoil. So how has this South East Asia nation about thirty one to thirty two million people? How has it gone from an inclusive? And reformist government to a nationalist conservative law. Within days. Bridget Welch is an honorary research associate at the University of Nottingham. That's at Malaysia's Asia Research Institute bridget. Welcome back to between the lines. Great to be here now. Mahadi rule Malaysia for more than two decades until a two thousand and three in my twenty. It mighty gripe political comeback. Those last time we had you on the program bridge. What did he suddenly resign? Listen to us into his tenure. Well I it's reasonably clear that had he had very serious tensions between himself and anwer Abraham and the coalition that he led the pocket harp on coalition was divided and ultimately it split And as a consequence of that The the coalition collapsed and part of the collapsed however in the ball to move to a new coalition government and mightier himself was not willing to accept what other other parties in the coalition were doing montier resented working with. I'm no particularly the former leaders of the former government who were Who are tainted by corruption allegations? So what we see is a situation where Montier many politicking dividing rule many of the trying to split the pot the coalition itself his his reluctance to to leave Turn power over to Anwar set the conditions for the power. Grab that took place but at the same time Montier was not willing to go full. Go through with it. Because he wasn't willing to to allow the new new coalition to include the members of who he stood against when he came back into power. I'm into thousand. Mahalia and You mentioned ny Abraham now. Let's be clear. He's the protege turned. Raul turned ally although they fill out about a waco so ago they have reunited though having I think they have reunited from a perspective of They're now forming the opposition. But they have not yet completely resolved their differences. The fact of the matter is is that if Montier had supported Anwar clearly laid out a time line and stopped the politicking within the coalition then the government would not have collapsed. So I think for now. They are working together against a now common enemy. Who was someone who took the took took over the government in a in a power grab but at the same time that doesn't necessarily mean that they are fully resolved the question of the Lisa Session? If alcohol everyone was to come back to government says he feels but tried he success that. Yes in his malign nationalist. He's backed by this corruption tarnished former governing party. You mentioned the Mama tells more about yes so mine didn't yes and has been in politics for over forty years He joined politics in nineteen. Seventy eight He came into. I'm no He was the Chief Minister of the the very important state of Jehovah on the southern part of Malaysia and he has served in different capacities as different ministries that has held six different ministries In I'm no I'm he has not necessarily Had A clear Persona that That an extensive grassroots but he's been a very effective tactician and capable administrator And as a consequence he rose through the ranks through I'm no And he became deputy prime minister under the previous government From two thousand nine to two thousand fifteen We didn't ask known predominantly for three things He's I known for defining himself I as a Malay- as opposed to a Malaysian which is of course part of the reason. There's the brand that he is. Emily nationalist government and this new coalition that exists combines is predominantly Malays based parties And so this is something. It seems to have been Quite defining of who he is. The second thing is is that he's also known for standing up for against Najib on they won. Mvp scandal He he was sacked and after putting pressure On on Najeib to on these issues of corruption and he after in this happened in two thousand fifteen when the scandal is revealed so he stood up for On this important issue. And he's also known now for The effective maneuvering up becoming the winner in the power. Grab Which of course they're very different views and Malaysia about this Those looking at this recognized that that there are real serious. Ethical concerns about Whether or not amyloid and Yeltsin actually had the numbers which really did not seem to be the case in terms of A majority government When he was positioning himself for taking over power And others feel that that there's a there's an that he had. He had more than most numbers at that time and that he should that He was effective and moving and getting the position of power. There people in Malaysia are divided right now. Some people are are willing to give mood in a chance Wanting the situation to be more stable is and others very very angry that they feel that their sister the government has been stolen from them their dreams of different Malaysia of stolen for them. And there's a bit of considerable fear among people that this that lead in Yassin were lot real will be an old Malaysia. Politician Aka using the levers of power using issues of race using of issues of of of exclusion as a way to build up his powerbase so to the extent that this new Malaysian pm a struggles to govern and of course we have to remember elected public. Mandates does this mean this unprecedented instabilities. Luckily to continue the fact of the matter is is that Malaysia is a coalition government And is dealing with the situation of coalition governments in coalition governments across the world. You have one type of party set. A parties emerged. And then you can have a very unstable situation that a new set of parties emerged from Malaysia. This is a very new dynamic and of course it played out in the uniquely Malaysian Way with with intense amount of personal drama and Intrigue Enemies and betrayals Because the politics of Malaysia or highly personalized Right now mood in is Has Very is behold into the parties that he that he is that a put him into office and and the questions of Prot. Who is he's going to prosecute or maintain the prosecution's how much Islam governance he's GonNa put in whether he's actually GonNa try to seem to have any reform without his gonNA use race relations and of course importantly now lead in. Essen is is somebody who's just recently had a very serious bout of pancreatic cancer so the issue of the leadership succession is is equally important for this new government so there are very important points of instability and and as a result of that This is something that the people are watching very carefully. The instability is also facilitated by the fact that the opposition the new opposition bucket on Harapan. Now is that is actually quite emboldened by how this power crap has taken place. My guess is bridget Welsh and she's from the University of Nottingham in Malaysia. So bridget any chance of of of yet. Another political comeback for Dr Mahattaya well Malaysia. One one can recognize that. There's a phrase Malaysia. Bolay anything can happen. Malaysia is able to do many different things. And I think I think that the possibility of him taking Coming back into office there But I think it is already provides. Extraordinary isn't it. Yes and the possibility of Anwar Ibrahim coming in is there But there are also pressures to try to bring a new individuals contenders and this is one of the things that's happening now is that they're different generation of pressures To move in different sets of leaders right now. Malaysia still however is very much locked in the personalities of the past and mood in was one of those. What about talking about anything happening? What about this disgraced former prominence to Nagyrabe Razaaq? He's being dogged by A multi billion dollar corruption scandal. You mentioned it before the State Investment Fund one. Md BE. I mean could he be walking back in into government a bridge? I think there are different views. There are people who think that the that that lead in Yeltsin's except the unblock which means everybody right so that everybody's GonNa get off or they're gonNA get fined and they'll be able to come back into the government. I think it's highly unlikely at this. Juncture THAT NUDGE OBTAIN. Razzak will come back in. Because because of how he's tainted in because it keep in mind that he sacked mood and esn And he was very vindictive and how he did that and so you know. People have these personal relationships and personal experiences I think that There's also a lot of pressures within Om no to change the leadership And to move beyond Najib but nauseam continues to have considerable clout within the party because he controls the resource a lot of the resources and the money Which of course Many people were questioned. Where the sources of that money came from. But the fact is he does have a visa. This issues of resources at its disposal and as a result. I think that one of the things that's going forward is the I'm the I'm no party is divided about. How should they work within the context of this new coalition? Some of them would like to go on to new elections to get a fresh mandate bring in fresh leaders others who are part of the elites of that party want their cases settled and so they see this power grab as a as a means to bring them back into office and to and to kind of re. Give them a clean slate. Which of course can't happen because of the slate is extremely dirty. It's infected okay. Now about seventy percent of Malaysia's thirty one thirty two million people malign Muslims and it's widely believed that this new government will rely heavily on ethnic Malays support. Does that mean? It's luckily to marginalize the non-muslim minorities first of all it's let me step back to the question of Malay Muslims in the of Malaysia. What we're saying is divisions within that community and that has been playing out for quite some time it paid out in March and may two thousand eighteen and it's playing out now so I think that the sense that all the Malays are united is is something to be. I think cautious to to push forward. They're going to rely on on on mobilizing sentiment about racial and religious politics But not all Malays except that about but the majority. But they're gonNA try to use the sort of legitimation at the same time. Non-malays clearly are have been very significantly sidelined in this new government So far we're going to of course wait for the cabinet numbers but the reality is that the parties that represent non Malays in this new coalition lack legitimacy among the Non Malays community. But there are these issues that many of the business community and many in the community were frustrated with the lack of Performance of the previous government especially in the areas of the economy. So it it. There are some some divisions within the non-aligned Community. About whether or not this new government can stabilize and bring in Improve THE SITUATION FOR BUSINESS. There is a lot of pressures to deal with issues of business as usual at the same time. They're conflicted because they're serious. Row Concerns about the role that the Islamist party will play in this new government And of course on how this will impact the rights of non-muslim within the country There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of apprehension on this matter. Bridget thanks so much for giving us an update on Malaysia. Run between the lawns. Glad to have you on the program again. Great to be here. Thanks very much for inviting me bridget. Welch she's an honorary research associate at the University of Nottingham at Malaysia's Asia Research Institute. Bc's is between the lines with Tom. Switzer will here in Australia. We've had several high profile cases of Chinese influence in Australian politics and last month we had a warning from the Director General of Asia that quote the level of threat. We face from foreign espionage and interference activities is currently unprecedented. That's from the director. General of Asia but Australia is not the only country facing this threat. It's a growing problem across the region now joining me now. His Ameri brighty. She's a professor of politics and International Relations at the University of Canterbury and a leading expert on China's use of influence operations. Amr is also a global fellow at the Kissinger Institute on China and the United States and Global Philo of the polar institute now heretical. A couple of years ago on China's magic weapons that helped inform the major shift. We've seen here in this country. On perception of Chinese influence in federal politics emory has given evidence to the Australian parliament's intelligence and Security Committee and she's even being the target of intimidation in her native New Zealand Anne. Marie welcome to between the lines. Tom Nice to talk to you now. What China's magic weapons? Well waepons is a tune that Matsu don't Coin to the Domus they Previous later of the Chinese Communist Party and he talks about Three core magic reopened within. That can't be defeated. Which helped the Chinese Communist Party come to POW and Xi Jinping along with other leaders of the Chinese Communist Party before him has used multiple. Don't Tumelty to signal a big change in Chinese from policy so these are the three magic mickens. One is struggle in other words the military the other party discipline the strength of the Chinese Communist Party and the food is what cooled united from united from is lean enough concert. People who'd a frontal actions with a Chinese Communist Party took the ideas of Lenin about building united front with people who are not necessarily your allies against the common enemy or treat and they really made it. There are in multiple created day Sixtieth of using united front tactic for the victory of the Chinese Communist Party in the Chinese civil war. Against the Chinese nationalist government when 2015 cheating pink signal that China with now gonNa be using a united front Wakon in much greater level with much more resources than it had been so many many years and it talks about am I research not just using domestic politics and some foreign policy and for what we would call foreign interference That would for in China's united front weeks so you mentioned about foreign and actually the Net with within the name of my paper of two thousand seventeen but they they as yo and essays here Needs Zealand eyesight. I make a distinction between influence when normal governments diplomacy normally governor trying to influence The government and and put the cost point of view. This is different from interfere. So we're talking about political interference and political systems and trying to build coalitions of sort of divide and road strategy and multi level and China uses multiple agencies and individuals to do that. And as some of your leading commentators on issue have seed. His a corrupting corroding collusive impact on our political systems. And it really caused a Lotta damage that so-called magic on the China side. But what I say to my rich if we have mentioned within two and the Democratic Political System and democracy we have the the academic because the conscience with fool to state. We have the right to choose their governments. We have to balance and shake multiple agency. So we have magic way since it can't be defeated that we can utilize to make Friday resilient against this kind of foreign interference from China. Let's bring this to New Zealand because the now has three Janis Communist Party. Political interference related investigations there underway. Who and what is being investigated? Well Australia kind of jumped ahead of everybody else. On dealing with us to share in path from so many important legislation but New Zealand who has got underway a couple of Investigations with these without food offers which are related to foreign interference so the first is about a New Zealand National Policy. Which is the main opposition party at the moment and donations? That they received from pace include dengue. He couldn't who at sometime has denied giving these donations. But you did get the donation. Somebody guys a donations and And he's connected and other people connected to the three people associated with him who are being the scope other serious food off of four now to two hundred thousand dollar donation which were not declared not report and the normal reporting system we have donation ivory fifteen thousand dollar amount and also The whistle blower on that particular case. Jamie Ross is also part of the investigation and the second investigation of if I should meet you by. Johnny is one of the most senior front The New Zealand dictated by the Chinese government. They very very involved in the. I'd probably he founded. What the GIA. The Child Sean Association Chechen General Association deal in which is a united front what organization which is sitting local a local part of China but it in southern China but it takes people in the board. I we'll track Southeast Asia. Many of them who come from Chechen. And it's one of the probably the much caution of the regional united front organizations and in the second case is the near Auckland. Field Goal and donations that he received political donations. He received in two thousand sixteen his electoral campaign which is now being NABISCO. One of those donation with famously a signed copy of she's selected works which he auctioned and I think that one hundred fifty thousand New Zealand for not reported who pitches but and from the Piston Cooling. Pitch and swing. It was dumb in Beijing when we pitch by the auction by fund and then the food person is the Mirror Christ church a game and be skied off donation that she received that were unreported. Is there any evidence that these legal donations from the Chinese Communist Party operatives that have actually affected public decision making in New Zealand? Because I think in Australia as you well know. We had the case of libraries. Sam Desio who was forced to resign after he essentially parroted. The Chinese government stands on the South China Sea. Are we seeing any real impact in New Zealand? Well fit fuel measure of having a these donations leaving leading outcome with. We have golden example. Told Maclay was the minister of trade. One hundred fifty thousand dollars put into the Royal Bank Account. Electric BANK ACCOUNTS THEY RIPS IN. Just the raw sugar by somebody. Who's not New Zealand? Raise it into citizen but he used a vehicle of a New Zealand company which that New Zealand rich company behind it As a significant shareholding from the Inner Mongolian government and that's one of the Inner Mongolia one of the provinces of China and todd. Mcclay went off about the waiter concentration camp. He used the terminology of the pain about that. But I think that we cut just look to the wording that our political it seemed to be using as it's some kind of a that's an example Bingo. You know those people that money so they start saying these things. I think it gets us. Those three things you've got from okay. They the broader and paint on our political system of poetry shouldn't receiving money from the Chinese government. The various intermediaries and then the corrosive impact has on out democracy out credibility and trust to democracy both in domestic politics and internationally and the corruption as well of individual. Potentially you know you have a lot to examples in New Zealand and Australia. And many other countries about very senior politicians and also civil servants who immediately leaving office or even sometimes while in office Tie Cup. Drake two ships of Chinese banks and five hundred prizes and they use their connections that heaven to our political systems to lobby for China's. I'm more beyond somebody repeating talking points. What about the media? I mean how concerned are you about what's happening in Chinese language media in New Zealand. Well not particularly violent. The fifty pay the Chinese Communist Party government although they do a decked their foreign interference. I'm PO approaches to countries depending on the makeup of the broad approach that China follows is much to fame so I recently tweeted about funding as well on those looking at the Chinese medias political guidance that they Chinese Pharisees provide to our local Chinese media. In fact it's not just editorial guidance. There is there radio stations in Australia and New Zealand and elsewhere in the world or they look like a local station they're actually owned by China Radio International which is from the Chinese government state broadcasting and most people levels of interference of guiding and instructing out local indigenous Chinese language media to follow Sheen potline. They have to follow the same line as that. She was the official news of China and the Chinese media has to follow that too. That you head to make sure that you're on message with what the Chinese government website so it means it out Chinese language media with very few exceptions. You've got a great Piper in Australia. Could Vision Time. That's unusual independent and the epoch times since the fall on goal publication different to buy power from them incredibly. Now you'll find that the Chinese language media if you picked up a Paker and Sydney Oakland Vancouver and Chinese language. You wouldn't find any different the assure line from what you'd find in a paper in Shanghai Oklahoma Beijing bet you might even find more of cutting edge journalism within China because they've got a competitive marketplace dear Paper so go to sell papers. How do you think the government and has it been strong enough on foreign influence? Well in Australia. You had Malcolm Turnbull. taking political leadership on this issue and we need that kind of political leadership and New Zealand from ALP reminisce. The she's the she's in charge of over overall has Responsibility for national security. So she needs to go. I really strong leadership on on the Fisher She has spoken at times about concerns about foreign interference. But really not with the same clarity as now temples by modern saying what happened with Malcolm Turnbull and Julie. Bishop came down hard on the Chinese leadership over these issues. Many commentators in Australia believed that was the beginning of the The turning point the relationship between Cameroon Beijing Salad of the tumbles intervention. I might be thinking. She doesn't want to sell the relationship because New Zealand. Lock Australia so heavily dependent on China Amurri. Actually that's a mischaracterization of the strategy. China chaining point wasn't in tune boom spy cowed. Jimmy bishops anything. Strictly re China relations have not been that great for quite a while. Now new permits us to tell me how You Know New Zealand would seem to play loud business. People and politicians to meet with senior leaders in the straight couldn't get the similar level of Highly contract sorry. Australia has been getting a bit of a cold shoulder from Australia. From China for Awhile and But Australia has got something that China really need has got iron ore and other rickles that China really need. It can't get elsewhere when you give them that kind of pressure. From great power you have to recognize. National Security is the top priority. And if you don't have national security don't have economic security a New Zealand. China relations are at the historical based. We know this because Aluminium leader of opposition bridges. He was in China last year and hey mate with a Washington who's a senior leader in the polit bureau. Who happened to be in charge of one of his portfolios? Bakr police on the bridges didn't realize it but I've seen the notes of that meeting and Washington Toll Bridges that New Zealand. China relations are at the historical base point Eva and then after that was last year we were having the one year acquiring foreign interference. Lubitsch died the second one We've we have. Our government has done a number of thanks trying to address the challenge of the far interior victims coming from China and yet we were told That relations really good so China kind of fool to go and Go again every country in the world. They're gonNA really hard on. You know the guy hit hip with us. They are picking on Canada because Canada exit on Interpol notion that Rosa going hard on Sweden. Who's defending citizens who've been arbitrary defined China so? I say that you could not pick a better time to defend your interest and your to give between predict national security. Your point is Australia and New Zealand have leveraged with the Chinese and Marie. Thanks so much for being on our in today. My Ameri Brady. She's an expert in Chinese Politics Kimber University in New Zealand. And we'll put a link to Harare on China's magic weapons on the website. Well that's the program this weekend before you tune in again next week. What are you? Download the listen half. We'll just visit our website. Abc Net dot US slash. Aren and follow the prompts. To between the lines we listen to any of the past episodes over the past six. She's on Tom Switzer. Hope you can tune next week

China New Zealand government Malaysia Australia Chinese Communist Party Chinese government Tom Switzer Anwar Ibrahim University of Nottingham Marie Brady Asia New Zealand Southeast Asia montier Bridget Welch bridget prime minister Najib Yeltsin
The Earthquake

The Big One: Your Survival Guide

31:15 min | 2 years ago

The Earthquake

"When an emergency strikes preppy has you covered. Use the code the big one to receive a free three day emergency kit with any purchase food water. First aid and emergency essentials. All included coulda preppy dot co. That's p r e p p I dot CO slash the big one. You work in downtown LA, the hard loss Angeles. Every morning you wake up at your house in the suburbs. You walk to the train and you make your way in your headed to Union Station you and one hundred thousand other people pass through here every day. Maybe you work can finance or in fashion. Downtown's dense. There's a lot of traffic there skyscrapers nearly as tall as the Empire State building. Eventually arrive at your stop. You get off your train you walk through the main lobby and you stop at a kiosk for some coffee. You say, hey to the barista you've known for the past three years, you reach into your pocket for your wallet. You move to the side you, wait. You have no idea there's a monster beneath your feet, laying in wait net day, everything changes. Seismologists Lucy Jones knows this monster. She studies it for a living a minute before the earthquake. It's no different than any other time. Out in the middle of the desert one hundred sixty miles away from where you're standing. There are two enormous tectonic plates that have been trying to slide past each other for millions of years. They're stuck today. They slip, and when they do there's a tremendous burst of energy that travels through the earth. L A won't know anything for another forty five seconds before the very first p wave arrives. It's like the earth's early warning system. So the first p wave is a sound wave is probably not enough to move glass, but you might end up feeling slightly seasick because it'll be below. You're hearing range all the way at the fault. The earthquake is already throwing people to the ground, but the rupture spent continuing to move up fall through that forty five seconds releasing more energy at every point along the fault and that the parts of the falter getting closer and closer to us. The shaking starts at Union Station. The I s wave comes in about seventy five seconds after the beginning of the earthquake. That's the second wave be feel the ground shake harder and harder. You can't outrun. You dive under a table and hold on. You've got about fifty seconds of very strong ground shaking. So people try to run out of Union Station. They are likely to be thrown to the ground and break their legs sprain their ankles or they make to the outside of the building as the birth objects on the outside collapse on them. Definitely. There will be the perception that the round us is literally waving in front of you. After nearly a minute. The shaking finally stops at Union Station, you crawl out from underneath the table and stand up you don't get any reception inside of the building. So you run out the glass doors at the front. You try to call your wife. Try again and again Hanoch to text. Are you home? Are you? Okay. Get nothing back. Can't get a hold of your mom or dad your sister. Anyone you love. The shaking starts again. There will be aftershocks beginning before the main shock has even over. It doesn't feel like it ever stops. You will feel continuous motion for minutes. There's a huge quake on the San Andreas fault in southern California every hundred years or so we haven't had one for about one hundred sixty. Last time one struck. There was no Union Station of Hollywood a freeways to destroy more skyscrapers to crumble, no, fifth largest economy in the world to cripple. We don't know when the big one's going to hit. It could be a year. It could be a week or literally any minute now. But we do know that when it does you'll have an overwhelming feeling that mother nature doesn't care that your small. The question is how are we going to survive? We are myopic. We say this event will not happen to be. I can't worry about it. About about. You realize that you are very? Small on this earth. Yeah. All the time. I think about really how not prepared. I am. I'm Jacob uncle. This is the big wine your survival guide episode one the earthquake. There's not a single personal life today that lived through the last big one in southern California. That's because the last big one was in eighteen fifty seven close thing we can compare it to his Northridge quake, which was on January. Seventeenth nineteen Ninety-four is early in the morning on Monday. And at the time I was five and I was asleep in my bed and everything changed about four o'clock in the morning. That's my dad. Mark literally startled awake by a freight train driving right through our bedroom. And we both literally jumped out of bed. It was like it was so loud. I'd never heard anything like it. And my mom Melissa the blinds that we're supposed to be hanging vertical like outwards onto the house lifting up like ten feet and being slammed down back onto the ground. It was everything in your house crashing onto the floor. The refrigerator opened up and everything fell out. So your house, smells, like soy sauce. And. Off and wine and anything is in there. And first thing is to save your children. And so he was screaming. She was screaming. After it happened. We had a whole bunch of windows and doors wouldn't open or close we'd all these walls were cracked, and it was like someone that place their whole life in vice in just twisted. Basically, we were left here with me and Melissa two kids in a house that was pretty pretty badly damaged cold and really no way to heat the place. I remember driving down one of the main streets, and there were broken gas lines as well as broken water lines. There were also flames coming out of the water. It was very surreal. You know? So burning water. I mean, how often do you see that? Our house was really messed up. So we had to leave stayed with relatives. And I remember living in a trailer in our backyard for months compared to some we had it pretty easy. We are getting reports of close those Angola's international airport. We are told as been closed the Tony ago. Structure will nature other than the portion of the collapsed freeway, which you so you quickly southern California at four thirty five morning has caused the number of injuries number of buildings. Have fifty seven people died. Eighty seven thousand buildings and homes damaged. Hundred thousand people suddenly without homes, it you realize that you are very small on this earth. It's there's something you can't control when this is mother nature doing its thing. After a few years. Our lives went back to normal. But this feeling of uneasiness remained twenty five years after Northridge and is still here. So think about this for all the problems that caused Northridge was not a big one Northridge wasn't event that disrupted the lives of people in the San Fernando Valley extensively disrupted our community for a year or two the big San Andreas earthquake is going to disrupt the lives of everybody in southern California. And it could take decades to recover what we lose. Whether you like it or not the big one is coming, and it's gonna come from the San Andreas fault which runs all the way through California. It's a meeting place of the Pacific and North American plates shearing against one another trying to move in opposite directions. But they're stuck building massive amounts of pressure. When they slip that pressure gets released net, energy blasts way through the. That's an earthquake. So the magnitude to. When a bow drags across strings. There's also a burst of energy it travels through the instrument bounces around the hollow body exits and disturbs the air around. Your ear magnitude four. The tectonic plates dragging across each other are like Bose against strings the energy that's released travels through the earth, and there's all these peaks and valleys and highs and lows a magnitude six. And then a magnitude seven point eight. So instead of a half a million people receiving the very intense shaking damage, it'll be ten million people who get. We may not know when the big ones going ahead as ready as we think, we are it isn't enough, and what that means for California and really the rest of the country is terrifying. Preppy wants everyone to be prepared for any situation by bringing design to the forefront of their emergency kits. They're making earthquake prep less daunting, and maybe even a little fun made in California preppy attractive canvas and leather bags are designed to be displayed right in your living room more office. If an emergency strikes, your most essential supplies are at arm's length not stashed somewhere deep near closet, though. The preppy line is quite handsome on the outside the contents. They include are incredibly comprehensive helping you face a real emergency situations with confidence and for a limited time they're giving away three kits for free with any purchase. Go to preppy dot coat. That's PR e p p I dot CO slash the big one for a free preppy go box. You make your way outside of Union Station New Year's with dust. Stop lights are out. Traffic is jammed and it's loud. The people who ran when the earthquake hit or laying on the ground injured. They're holding their broken legs and twisted ankles. An aftershock hits. The shaking stops. You're dizzy who still swaying. You wanna get away from here? See walked towards the street water and sewage has started to seep up through cracks in the roads. You see a woman in a suit walk over to a guy wearing an I love LA sweatshirt. He was selling souvenirs just a few minutes ago. And now his cart spilled over in. The trinkets are all over the road. There doesn't shattered snow Globes and you see a miniature Hollywood sign broken free from its tiny glass world. They moved the card out of the road. Sociologists have a word for this. It's called milling. That's what it's called when a bunch of strangers walk up to one another after some major disaster and ask are you? Okay. You walk a few blocks towards the financial district. The dust is getting thicker. You pull your shirt up over your face. You don't choke on. But you can barely see in front of you. You hear people screaming you look up a building has collapsed. Skyline on that super guy sweatshirt. Suddenly out a date. You can hardly see through the haze. But you see outlines of twisted steel beams and piles of concrete, God poor people you walked towards the danger people. Join you suddenly there's a whole group around you dozens of people trying to help. I've been living in New Zealand for gosh. Nearly fourteen years it'll be fourteen years in September. So I arrived in New Zealand on September seventeenth two thousand four. Our when champion Nixon senior producer on the show. She talked with someone who is trapped after an earthquake and brower is an environmental scientist and she works in Christchurch. She actually used to live in California and was here when the Northridge quake happened. But at this point, February two thousand eleven she's working in New Zealand. It's a Sunday and she has to go in for meeting, but she does not want to deal with the parking at the university. So she's like, all right? I'll take the bus in the bus was read. It's owned by company called red bus. It was the number three bus want straight from Sumner the beach village where I lived at the time straight to the university of Canterbury. But went through city centre. So an had been avoiding city center for about five months. Why? Well, there had been an earthquake a few months before that was pretty far outside the city. But in the months after there had been all these little aftershocks just happening all the time and city center is full of all these old buildings. So an was just trying to be careful she was just being cautious. But it's a Sunday she has to get into work. So she's like, well, what's I mean, how likely is it that anything bad happens? So she decides to get on the bus and she sits down on the front half of the bus everyone else's in the back of the bus except for the driver. She pulls out a magazine, and she starts reading it magazine was she was reading the economist. So the bus jumped in the air, and my first thought was oh cool. Okay. This time I get to see what it's like in city center. So I saw bricks falling on the other side of the street. And I thought okay, this is definitively no longer cool. Then I heard bricks hit the bus what to break sound like on a bus while it sounds like brick hitting a very thin layer of of metal. And there's nothing like the sound of falling bricks and breaking less. It's terrible terrible out. When the earthquake hit the bus stopped in the shadow of this brick building, and the brick started to come off chunks of them. Just collapsing cascading down hitting the roof of the bus just pile after pile hitting the roof until it's completely caved in an aunt is pinned under the roof of the bus. So an almost an instant it's gone completely dark and can't see anyone you can't hear anything, and she becomes overwhelmed with pain. So there were there was no sensory perception except for weight. So like, I couldn't see anything. I couldn't hear anything. I couldn't smell anything. All I could do feel the increasing in chunks. You know, brick by brick ton by ton on my left hip, and it just kept coming and coming and coming, and I remember thinking, this is not okay. This is this is not. Just I'm not ignorant idea. Not agree. This land. Out. Okay. This is nonsense. Non me this. And then she passes out. It's not people running around pulling out their hair trying to what are the dirt or moms. Don't throw their babies to the side, those kind of crazy panicked rushes that we see depicted in the movies a lot those things don't really happen in real life. Since y'all. Joe trainer is obsessed with disasters. He's at the university of Delaware. Most of the time under most circumstances that you're gonna see people become the best of version. The most altruism version of themselves, especially in those first couple of minutes moments after the event there are exceptions like in two thousand three when a fire broke out a nightclub in Rhode Island. People started shoving everyone's trying to escape and by the time it was over one hundred people were killed more than two hundred others were injured. But that's the exception. It's not the rule a nine eleven as far as we know not a single person pushed anyone out of the way we'll ever was rushing to get out of the buildings. In fact, people stayed to check on their coworkers. An wakes up trapped in this bus with no idea how much time has passed. You know, it wasn't like you wake up in the morning, and you hear the birds, and you see the daylight of the new day I woke up in in the dark place like I woke up, and it was all black. She surrounded by the wall of the bus on one side, the roof of the bus crushing her, and she starts to try and wiggle toes. And her fingers he knows she wants to see if your spine as injured and finally her senses start coming back just one by one she realizes she can't see. And then the sun starts beaming in shining through the window that was somehow still intact. And then she can't hear until she can hear these people rustling around outside, and then she can feel again. And when she does she's in so much pain. She just hurts to scream. No, no, no. No. No. No. This is this is not my life. No. I'm not okay with this. This is not me. And then she sees someone. There's this guy in a fluorescent vests ending outside the window. And he says to her you're going to be okay. We are going to get you out. Will you please stop screaming? And I thought that was a fair deal. And if they were going to get me out, I was willing to stop screaming and fairly soon after that. I saw light will. There was a group of about twenty kind and brave hearted souls who had gathered on top of the bus to pull all the rubble off the bus and they had pulled the roof of the bus off. So here you are in dust covered. Close minutes after the single most devastating earthquake in southern California history and you're walking towards the chaos. Outside of a collapsed building surrounded by strangers. But what can you all do where do you start? You scream call out to people trapped inside to let them know that you're there. You don't know if they're alive when suddenly? It sounds like SOS. Yell too. Few people to come over. I'm here. Going to get you out. You're not ready for this of these people need help. So this point dozens of people are gathered around this bus. We've got like mechanics tourists just whoever is around. Right. And they're all trying to move these piles off the bus to get in out. So they start moving the bricks off the bus they pull the roof back, and they get it open just enough that light starts coming through. But they can't get her out. So one of these people who's trying to help this guy. Rob this man with bright blue eyes. He decides to get into the bus. He just gets into the bus. Yeah. At this point, the whole they have in the roof isn't big enough to pull her out, and she's stuck. So he's like all right. I'm coming in and squeezes through the metal sits down next to her and takes her hand and starts talking. What do you talk about in a situation like that? Well, he was just trying to distracter. So he started talking about what he knows which is fishing. So he starts telling her these stories of the one that got away the greatest fishy ever cut. But the whole time he's just staring into her eyes holding her hand, and he will not break I contact. I remember more light came in. So I sensed that they had pulled more of the roof off, and I could see and hear men walking into the bus. And that was the only time that rob sort of let my gaze let let our gazes move apart. Because he he said to the man who got into the bus. He said get her first mate, he's gone. And that was that was the firm. I I knew that that that other people on the bus had not made it. So everyone else had been on the bus eight people. They were all dead before people who'd been on the sidewalk next to the bus when this earthquake hit they were on that. An was the only survivor, and she was trapped and these people climb into the rubble, and they use this handsaw to cut the seat off of her that is pinning her and they mover. They're finally getting her out and she just blacks out again from the pain. But she survived. She was saved by these strangers. It's been our sincere quake hit your throat is dry from answering screams with more screams, mix of adrenaline and exhaustion there. Hundreds of people helping now. Your phone vibrates. It's a text from your wife. It says I'm safe Omar's at school. I'm going to get him. Meet us at home. The question is how do you get home? That's next time on the big one. After the credits. Five tips on how to survive when an earthquake hits. In the making the show. We had a ton of people help out we had mission Yussef who's our lead producer are when champion Knicks who's our executive producer Mary officer assistant producer making garvey's editor we had Andy Clawson, do the music are when Nixon Valentino Rivera did the sound design, but Valentino also engineered along with Shawn Corey Campbell, the artwork on our website is by Stephanie craft. This episode was written and reported by our Knicks Mitchell. Yousef and me Jacob goalless. We got production reporting help for the big one from David Rodriguez was a great enter marketing Najib by the one and only outs Laughlin and thanks to James Kim for his. Najer cans. Thanks to Dana ama- here for creating our website and data tools, if you live in southern California, and you want to know if your house is in fault zone or liquefaction zone. Go to KPCC dot org slash the big one. Check out our math. It's a really really cool. We've got a ton checklist. And info there as well special. Thanks to Jonathan Snipes, Bill Hudson, Kate share and Morgan page. I'm your host, shake, Mark. CNN last week. So you just heard that this whole earthquake is going to be really scary. But I'm here to help. I'm Michelle Yousef. I'm the lead producer of the big one. And I have five practical tips for you that aren't going to cost a lot of money, and that are going to help you survive a bigger quake. Tip number one drop cover and hold on you wanna drop because you don't want the earthquake to throw you to the ground. You want to get to the ground before that happens cover? So that the stuff that's flying. Everywhere doesn't hit you in the head and hold on. Because just because you're under something sturdy doesn't mean you're not gonna be flown away from it. So attach yourself to tip number two techs. Don't call when you're in a big crowd like beyond sake concert. You can't really get a lot of calls through because the systems are flooded. So you're going to have better luck. Sending text message. The same is true. The earthquake everyone's going to be trying to reach people they love and you have a better shot. If you send a text message because it takes less band number three if you're trapped in a building and I'm sorry in advance. If you end up in that situation, but if you're trapped in a building don't just start screaming all over the place because there might not be any people around. And by the time help actually does show. Yup. You wouldn't be able to use your voice to tell them where you are. You might lose your voice. So what people recommend is that you find some sort of object that's near you. And you make like rhythmic noises like in threes or fives. And then when help is around then let them know where you are. So number four, if you're one of those people like me who hate getting gas in your tank is always close to eat if not on MD, that's really bad for a disaster, you need to go get gas right now and make sure that your tank doesn't fall below half. Because let's say the earthquake kids and your gas tank is empty h-. You're not going to be able to get anywhere if you have to evacuate, or if you need to go to the store in the first couple of days gas stations might not even be open, and you're going to be stuck lasted in our scenario. The earthquake hit in the middle of the day. But what if it happened in the middle of the night and your sleep naked in your bed, pajamas and choose my friends, make sure you were closed. To bed and keep up here of shoes because there's gonna be glass and things all over the place, and you don't wanna get hurt. So keep a pair of shoes. Just fright on your bed that you can always get to and sleeping get if you, but you might have to run out into the streets. Mr.

California Union Station Northridge the brick producer LA San Andreas Empire State building Mark earthquake Lucy Jones New Zealand Michelle Yousef Rob Nixon Angola Union Station of Hollywood CNN
Gravity Assist Podcast: Where Could We Go on the Moon? With Steve Mackwell

NASACast Audio

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Gravity Assist Podcast: Where Could We Go on the Moon? With Steve Mackwell

"Latte cool places on the moon that we've never been what's the difference between the near side in the far side. Where would be a good spot for astronauts to camp out? Let's talk to an expert. Hi, I'm Jim Greene. Chief scientist at NASA in this gravity assist. This season is all about the moon. With me today is Dr Steve MAC. Well, you know, when I first met, Steve he was the director of the lunar and planetary institute. And now he is at the American Institute of physics as the deputy executive officer. And I'm real excited to talk to him today. He's one of the top planetary scientists in the world, welcome Steve. I enjoy being here. So this is a perfect opportunity, you know, with the fiftieth anniversary of Apollo eleven to be talking about the moon, and what happened in the past. But you know, really take a look at what we wanna do in the future. So let me start out talking about how the Apollo mission planners shows where to go on the moon. Well, Jim as you know, the technology back. There wasn't what it is today. And one of the key criteria was safety and landing landing on a nice flat spot with no big rocks. Yeah. I think that was probably number one. You've never number one. Yeah. And we didn't have great imagery of the moon back then. So we didn't know how big the rocks were and polo eleven had some challenges actually finding a place to land safely, but safety was a key criteria. Also, you know, you had to be on the news side because communications back to earth was critical. Couldn't go to the far side can't go to that side that we can't communicate with. So all that changed. You know Powell eleven twelve landed thirteen had to come home. Didn't didn't make it to the surface of the moon? You know is very famous mission. Everyone knows about of course. And then we went onto fourteen fifteen sixteen and seventeen so really great set a six fabulous Apollo missions. And they brought back some material they brought back about eight hundred fifty pounds of lunar samples. So what are some of the things? He's lunar samples of told us. Oh, we learned a lot about not just the moon, but also the earth and and the whole system. And in fact, we even. Learned about how are the early solar system developed from those samples one of the key things we learned his because the moon doesn't have the kind of emotional history. And everything that we see here on earth is the the safest the moon's relatively pristine. So we have the history of bombardment of impact cratering on the surface of the moon that goes back right to the alias times of the solar system. And we've used that information to calibrate the surface ages of MAs of mercury of other plenty bodies in the solar system. So that was a really critical piece because you know, we couldn't unravel the history of 'Sola system without the information. We got from the samples we brought back from the moon. We also kind of lend a lot about how that the moon evolved over time and vocalism on the moon. You know, this lot of information on the samples that we brought back even though from a relatively limited area on the surface. You know, having those samples in our hands allowed us to date them in some of the key. That is really looking at at samples that we brought back from the men. So how old is the earth and the moon about four point six billion years that we've been around a while? That's right. You know, what's really neat that that just happened recently is that we brought back a rock from Apollo that actually has a unique connection to earth. You remember what that was? Oh, yeah. There was a lot of hype about that. That was the that was the first time we've actually seen something that could represent a piece of the brought back in the samples from the moon. We could we could have more in the collections. But you know, it's still you know with the samples that we brought back. We've got a lot of very careful detailed science that we do on them. And we're going to see looking at that sample in more detail of some questions about whether it's truly Luna material or earth material. We're going to see what makes it hard to tease. That out. Of course, is that earth rock is in bedded in other rocks. That are lunar probably in origin in that's called a branch, and there from the from the impacts that then melt these rocks together. So now that we've recognized one that's going to be important as we look over though samples to see if we can find some more. So why is it important that we find rocks from earth that have made their way to the moon? Well, logically speaking, you'd expect to find some throats on them and just because of the proximity, and because you know, from the impact history particularly early on in the history of this oldest system, we know there was a lot of material that was knocked off the surfaces of planetary bodies including the gunman and the moon is so close that you would have expected. Some of these materials land on the moon after all the collections that we've got it Johnson Space Center, we have samples of moss pieces of rock that was knocked off the surface. Mas and eventually landed on the surface of our planet. So this rock we've dated and it is about four billion years old. So the oldest earth rock we have found is the one we brought back from the moon. That's really mind boggling. Yeah. It's it's really quite incredible. And the thing about that too. Is the fact that we have very very little if the history of the earth recorded from any materials we have on earth. So in theory, at least the rocks. We get back from another planetary surface. Could tell us about the very earliest history of our own planet that we cannot get from anything here, and that's because of our plate tectonics in the way, our surfaces still involving it's kind of turning over. And so some of the oldest stuff we find here on earth is only about three point six billion years old. So that's really neat. But but this really brings up another interesting connection, you know, the power astronauts left on the surface of. The moon these reflecting instruments that allow us to fire lasers at and then get a laser beam back. And when we use those four we use those to basically because of the that we have highly accurate measurements the distance between us and retro. Reflective that still exist on the moon. We learn a lot about the interior structure of the moon as well and the dynamics of the earth moon system. So they turn out to be very valuable tools. We had a recent mission the grail mission which went an over to the moon. It was two orbiting spacecraft that were very very carefully choreographed, and they're all bit to give us very detailed information about the structure, the gravity structure of the moon, and coupled with the data from the retro reflectors, we were able to learn a lot more than we would have learned based on the grail measurement Salat one of the most important Masur moments that they facilitate when you fire laser from earth and bounces off those laser of reflectors, and then comes back to earth, and we time it. Because we know the speed of light weaken get the distance to the moon, and now we've been doing that for fifty years, and we're finding out the moon is moving away from the earth about an inch and a half a year. And so then that means if we go back in time we have to move the moon closer, so the concept of impacts here on the earth throwing material up and having them land on the moon actually is easier early on in the evolution of the earth moon system. True, you know, eight hundred and fifty pounds of lunar material, you'd think we got everything. Okay. So do we really need more samples from the moon? Well, we're talking about that earlier on the Apollo astronauts. They emissions themselves landed and parts of the moon that with the safest and easiest to land. Well, those are the Lynn Amari, and the Mari themselves are pretty flat region. So that relatively safe to laugh. And on but they're not represent anything like the true surface of the moon. And so because of reasons of safety we have a lot of the moon left to look at and even when you look at the landing site you see they're not distributed. Very broadly on the moon it self. So there are many places lift to go and many types of rocks that exist on the moon that we know would they're based on obiter measurements from spacecraft that we haven't sampled yet. So there's a lot left to do. And in many many questions about the moon that would be onset by collecting more samples missions like clementine and Chen dry in which was from the Indian space agency. Those those instruments on those spacecraft had the ability to look in different wavelengths in one of those sets of wave wings. They looked at allowed us to tease out different minerals that are on the moon. And so when you look at that data, and they. Can cover that date in different colors. You really see the moon is various areas are completely different than other areas. So that's the areas we want to go to bring back samples and understand what that material is. And it's origin because likely that stuff was made somewhere else in our solar system and brought to the moon. So where would we like to go to the moon is just the nearside or are there different things that we're seeing on the far side the side of the fuss side of quite different on the near side. You can see if you look up at the night sky. You can see the Luna Maria which were big volcanic basaltic deposits on the near side of the moon. You don't see those on the fos-? I'd this side is dominated by old more. Solicit crust. The lot of pledging place, which is a relatively light mineral makes up does rocks. So they represent the early crust of the moon. So there there's a lot of reasons for going to the fuss side. Also, the deepest basin on the moon, which may penetrate all the way down and provide excess two pieces of the mantle on the moon as well as the low across to the moon is on the fos- side. The south pole Aken basin which is an important target for us to go and collect materials from. So there are many reasons to look at different pots the moon. I should add that if we go to the faucet of the moon, we will no longer be the the first there the Chinese Chunga four Landa is already there. And the YouTube Rover is exploring new areas on the backside. Molasses great is more countries. Have the ability to launch probes gather scientific data in Laos are scientists as a world community to be able to interact and exchange information about what we find. Well, you know, the south pole Achim basin this huge deep impact hole that it was not feel. End up with volcanic material. You know, when we look at the near side, we see the Mari the Mari is impacts. But then material molten rock is filled that in volcanic material in that differentiates a lot of between the nearside and the far. So what are some of the ideas on why we see that on the on the near side, the volcanic Amari and not so much on the far side. There are many questions about that. And their various debates about why that why that came to pass some have to do with impacts on the moon some have to do with with just the the fact that the moon is been tidally locked to the is. So we always see the same side of the moon. And so so there's gravitational poll that must be affecting the volcanic material one would imagine. So. Yeah. So it's it's curious. We don't we haven't closed on that. We actually need more information than a lot of that information will be derived from increasing collection of samples over a wider distribue. Will you even pointed at the grail mission and one of the great things about the grail mission. It was really able to understand the thickness of the lunar cross, and it's different from the near side than the far side. Yes. So on the far side the crust is thirty kilometers thicker in general that that that we have to figure out why or how that happens. That's true. Yes. You know, we we also need to get a bit of quantification of the crystal thickness, and and while the grail mission was outstanding in providing high resolution, gravity data which allowed us to figure out roughly the global distribution of crustal thickness, we really need additional work to be able to measure the crustal thickness more accurately, and we'll get that. When we send more seismometers back to the moon. So why are the size, mama tres important? I mean, didn't we do that with the Apollo missions have size monitors and set them down on the surface? Wasn't that enough? Oh. Well, they were only on the surface for seven years. We did actually get a lot of really interesting data. It's clear that the lunar interior is more complicated than we have remained. An alumina crust self is is quite distinct from what we had imagined. Unfortunately, a decision was made about seven years after Apollo to turn says moment is off. So we lost a lot more information. The seismic information. We get tells us about mooncakes. But it also tells us about impacts until us a lot of interesting stories about the interior structure and dynamics of the moon. Interestingly enough, we have very deep moon mooncakes that very poorly. Understood coming from so deep in the moon. You wouldn't have imagined. It was possible for the rocks to break down that deep. Also, they Apollo landings were not over big geographic area. So if you're going to be able to figure out where these things are going on the moon, you need to have a seismic network, which is spread out. Over lodger area on the surface of the moon. Putting more seismometers on the moon and having a better distribution would provide us with some of the really key information that we're currently lacking, you know, other things in the samples that we brought back. Some of the scientists are talking about a variety of materials. One thing. They talk about his creep K R E P, by the way, yet K R E E P is cave of potassium. R E is rare earth elements p is false frus. And these these are what the geochemists would call incompatible elements and the material that makes up the the creep terrain that we're seeing on the moon is is also enriched in thorium. In fact, it was the thorium that first alerted us to the presence of these materials. And this is is material that was kind of the last gasp of liquid material the interior of the moon that was erupted onto the surface. And it's rather unusual on the basis of this Matisse. Material. We learned a lot about the the final history of the solidification on formation of the crust of the moon. So the creep terrain is rather unique. But it is very very important to understand the history of bodies like the moon that had an early magma Russian where the entire moon was liquid on the sniff this region and then the liquid rock. Yeah. Liquid rock. Well, yeah. In fact, during those time periods that you know, the the the water that was in Heron in the in the materials in the moon. We're being baked out. Right. You know? And so another result that came back from the Apollo astronauts is the rock seem to be dry. Oh, yes. But that's changed recently. You know, we made major minutes now of the rocks to finer detail because our instrumentation has gotten better. And we now are detecting small parts of water in in some of these rocks. But there are places that we've. I've heard about now on the moon where there might be a hundred or two hundred million tons of water. Whereas, oh, let's at the pulse because it doesn't have an atmosphere and because of its Opeta dynamics there are places on the moon. The crate is on the south and north poles with a temperature in the bottom of those craters is KOTA than anywhere else in the solar system. And and within those regions which never see sunlight. The any Fullerton. Deposits, particularly water is trapped and can build up over time. And so we believe based on on measurements better done from space craft and also from crashing the lady spacecraft into one of the south pole. Craters we understand that. There are some fairly major deposits of water is and maybe quite high concentrations that we can then use for other purposes such as we can use it to extract oxygen for humans to work on the moon. We can use it for breaking into cracking into hydrogen plus oxygen for fuel spacecraft to move out further into the solar system. So these deposits have really important and make the moon, not just a place. We wanted to go do science, but a place that can be a commercial venture to enable for the solar system exploration. Yeah. That's really Fanta. Tastic idea. The tough thing is it's an permanently shadowed crater. So that means we gotta crawl into that and get in there to not only sample it. And really understand. What's there? But then to be able to figure out a way to be able to use it. So there's a lot of engineering that that really has to come into play. Now, these these regions these permanently shadowed regions, of course, as you point out or in the polls North Pole and the south pole, you know. And so there's other advantages for human exploration in particular to be able to go to those polls. And that's why they're important, and that's because of the access of the sunlight has that happen. Well, as I mentioned, the the moon rotates on it sexist as it goes around the earth, eight sensually, the deep deep craters are do not see sunlight, but there are regions right on the rims of some of those craters that see permanent sunlight. And because of the open dynamics of the moon, they the temperature variation over time at the near the poles and this permanent. Sunlit regions is pretty benign the region near the poles is actually a much bit a place to put astronauts on the surface of the moon because the day night temperature variation there is pretty small and even though it's about minus eighty degrees Fahrenheit in that region of the moon that the fact that it's reasonably constant is makes it much easier for them to be comfortable there by contrast, if they were can habitat at the Equatorial regions the day night variation is about four hundred seventy degrees Fahrenheit, which is a real challenge to be able to keep them healthy and that kind of an environment. Now, the temperature swing is. So big that you have a completely different set of systems that you have to kick him. Exactly. Right. And you need a lot of power to keep them warm. Yeah. That's. That's that's right. You know, when you talk to people some people have the misconception that you know, the far side of the moon is always dark, but as you point out because the moon is rotating, and it does. So once a month and costantly has one face towards the earth. There are times, of course, that the far side is completely let you know. And we call that new moon. So you have to think about the dynamics, and and then being able to go to the poll be able to get access to sunlight all the time. The power your haves and do all kinds of stuff is is really important. Well, those are really key places. Not only for scientists to go to understand the the chemical environment and how the water gets there. But there are also other neat places on the moon. We're else could we go? Well, there are a couple of places that we know about that would be really very useful to go to to bring. Samples from one of them. Of course is the south pole can basin on the faucet of the moon, where we have material that as I said that comes up from the potentially from the low across to a mantle, and so we could sample the mantle and see what the rox the minerals alike, and we can also see whether or not this this water in those minerals as water dissolved within the minerals that is important resource for us. But also tells us about the early history of the moon and the south pole can basin is IQ really the oldest basin on the moon. But we don't know it's age because we don't have rocks that we know definitively came from there bringing back some material from the melt sheet that was associated with that that base inflammation event would be tremendously valuable that labelling us to understand the earliest part of the cratering history of the salt the solar system, which would allow us to be much more robust. Bust and our understanding of the early solar system, or you know, that impact region is enormous. We had a good day the moon ran blocked for us and took took the hit. And that that hit didn't come to the earth. Now, there's other places on the moon that are quite fascinating one of these things that we talk about our skylights. Oh, yeah. What are those the skylights pits on the surface, and you can see down into the pits? You can even see the larynx of the lava flows. And we believe that that these picks these. Structures were formed Juta collapsed crustal material over the top of Alava cheap. And we see lab plenty of Lavertue on earth. We see them in Hawaii and other places. And and it is reasonably conceivable that you would break down material above and create a cavity. And those Kennedy's could be really important for us as we think about sending humans back to the moon because they present an opportunity for putting astronauts below the surface somewhat, which is a mobile nine temperature environment. And also advocates in the bottom of these structures would also allow them to be protected from solar radiation much, more than putting them in a habitat on the surface of the moon. That sounds really neat. I mean, and those skylights and they're found quite a few of them the skylights on the near side of the moon. If if you can think about this, of course, standing right at the bottom of this collapsed Labatoon where the whole. Always and looking out and seeing the earth, and you see the earth all the time. So it also facilitates communication and makes it a really important special place for consideration. The fact that you know, that goes down of tens of meters, we have all kinds of stratego fee that we could we could look at scientifically could be quite important for us. So I'm I'm real excited about pulling all these ideas together and seen how we're going to use them to continue to help humans explore our moon as we go forward. We know one of the things I always ask my guess when we when we sit down and talk is about their gravity assists that that thing that happened in their life in the past that really got him excited about the field and allow them to become the scientists. They are today. And and if you haven't noticed Steve's got a great accent. And it's it's a New Zealand. Accent. So Steve, I'm really interested in your gravity assist. How did that happen added? Somebody from New Zealand giddy up you're working with NASA. Oh, well, I would say I'm a bit like the Galileo mission to Jupiter. I didn't have just one gravity assist. I had to the first one of mine was back when Apollo eleven landed because I I can still remember very very clearly sitting in the classroom and with a grainy black and white TV set and seeing the first steps of Neil Armstrong on the surface of the moon. It was fascinating to see you know, as people were moving around. It was clearly so different. And it was a stepping away from this environment would been so comfortable with for forever here on earth. So you that was one of the things that really impacted me. I also had another gravity assist that came quite a number of years later. I was finishing up. My my master's degree and ask. Physics and university of Canterbury New Zealand and the the first images came back from voyage Awan at Jupiter. Yeah. And and one of the images, this sticks in my mind. More probably than anything was the image of of the limb of ISO and seeing this clad this folk volcanic eruption, putting a cloud of of material up and thinking, wow, I always thought that the solar system was kind of a static place. And here was this crazy volcanic activity on a buddy way out in the cold realms of the solar system. So it really kind of made me think a lot that that we live in a much more dynamic environment than I ever imagined. And and so that was what got me got me thinking about it. And so when I took over the lunar implant implants cheat for me that was really coming back home that was. Getting back and and looking out into the solar system and thinking, wow, we need to understand what's going on here. Much much more than in the last twenty years or so. Well, we've made such progress. It's really amazing mazing. It really has. Yeah. So so you were the kid in the candy store at the lunar and planetary institute. Well, I really enjoyed chatting with you this afternoon. Thanks very much for joining me. Steve those a pleasure Jim will join me next time as we continue our exploration of the moon. I'm Jim green, and this is your gravity assist.

Dr Steve MAC NASA planetary institute Jim Greene American Institute of physics Jim Apollo Powell scientist pole Aken basin pole Achim basin executive officer Neil Armstrong YouTube Laos Johnson Space Center Apollo director Mas