20 Episode results for "University Of Wealth"

Bad Diets Are Responsible For More Deaths Than Smoking, Global Study Finds

NPR's World Story of the Day

02:39 min | 1 year ago

Bad Diets Are Responsible For More Deaths Than Smoking, Global Study Finds

"Around the world. Poor diets are linked to more deaths than smoking or drug use. That's the conclusion of a study just published in the Lancet medical journal NPR's Alison Aubrey reports. The research finds that eleven million deaths. A year are tied to what people eat researchers, analyzed people's diets and a hundred ninety five countries around the globe. They used survey data as well as sales and household expenditure data to try to capture what people eat, then they estimated the impact of diets on the risk of death from diseases, including heart disease, diet related cancers and diabetes. Here's study author Ashburn action of the university of Washington. This study shows that unhealthy diet is deleting respect or for this in the majority of the countries of the world. It's kind of a stunning thought given the risks of smoking or drug use this idea that poor diet may top them. All so big picture. What do people eat or not? Eat that so bad for starters. Many parts of the globe are awash in salty snacks and treats made of refined carbohydrates as well as sugary drinks, and the largest number of diet related deaths are tied to this too much sodium too much sugar and not enough whole grains, fruits or vegetables, the countries that do best at fending of diet related. Diseases include Japan, Israel, France and Spain and action says they all have one thing in common a pattern of eating close to the Mediterranean diet. This includes lots of fruits, vegetables nuts and healthy hordes, including olive oil and omega threes from fish at a time. When there's debate here in the US about who should qualify for government food assistance. It's worth noting that many people here and around the globe struggled to afford, healthy foods, but let's just say for argument's sake that tomorrow everyone on the planet began to fill their plates with fruits and vegetables. What would happen? Evan Frasure of the university of wealth in Canada says we would run out. He says globally, we produce too. Many starchy foods too much sugar and too much fat, but not enough produce at a global level. We have this mismatch between what we should be eating, and what we actually are producing which is another big hurdle when it comes to nudging people towards healthier diets Allison Aubrey NPR news.

Allison Aubrey NPR Evan Frasure Alison Aubrey NPR Lancet heart disease university of Washington Ashburn US university of wealth Canada Spain Japan Israel France
God as the Moral Foundation

Christian Podcast Community

11:34 min | 1 year ago

God as the Moral Foundation

"Right and wrong good and bad these purely subjective or do they actually exist apart from the human mind atheism give a plausible foundation for objective morality or as god. The only good explanation royce will tackle these questions. Today's episode of the ministers commit an installment of the everyday ministry podcast for ministers with shorter attention span <music> on shackled taw possibly three swedes <music>. Hello everyone. This is roy celanese. Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of ministers minute. These are short ten to fifteen minute episodes dedicated to answering one question related to everyday ministry today. I'll be tackling a very big important question which i think all of us interact with on an everyday basis whether christian or non christian so after this episode if you have questions pertaining to this topic please email us at every day ministry three podcast at djamil dot com or contact us on our everyday ministry podcast facebook page okay. I have a lot to cover in a short time so let's get to it. The question for this. Week's episode is can the human moral experience be evidence for god's existence. I'll ask again. Can the human moral experience be evidence for god's existence. This is one of my favorite questions and there's so many different approaches we can take take in response to it but i think one of the best ways to respond is by looking at the moral argument so in a nutshell. The moral argument seeks to show that god is the best explanation for the existence of objective moral values in duties in the world now. I'm going to lay out the full argument but i i think it would be beneficial to defined some terms. Moral values have to do with whether something in is good or bad or the more worth of something so when we say that compassion is good and hatred is bad we are making moral value judgments now moral duties have to do with whether something is right or wrong or our moral obligations whether we ought ought or ought not to do something or say something an example it is right to nurture a newborn infant and it is wrong to torture the newborn infant has to do with our actions towards something and lastly to say that moral values duties our objective give is to say that they are good or bad right or wrong independently of what anybody thinks about them. A common example used is to say that the holocaust i was objectively wrong to say that the holocaust was wrong. Even though the nazis who carried it out thought it was right and it would have still been wrong even if the nazis had one world war two and succeeded in brainwashing everyone in the world to believe the holocaust was right so here we have an overarching truth booth about the holocaust which supersedes the subjective experience of the people involved so now that we've defined key terms arms. Let's lay out the moral argument using logical formula and so the argument goes as follows premise one. If god does not exist that objective diff- moral values and duties do not exist to objective moral values and duties do exist in three therefore god exists exists now there can be some controversy over both premise one and two but i'm gonna address premise to first since it central to the argument so why think premise to is true or in other words why think that objective moral values and duties actually exist now you may hear some atheists at a popular level denied this premise or maybe even certain people on youtube or social media virtually nobody in the academic world of philosophy and ethics actually disagrees with this premise whether atheist or not and here's why i think anyone who sincerely reflects upon their moral experience would say this just as i trust my five senses to tell me that there's a world of physical objects around me. I should also trust my moral experience when it tells me that at least some things objectively good or evil right tong now of course we can all agree that our moral experience is not one hundred percent reliable in telling us which moral values and duties exist assist but this doesn't really do damage to the argument because our five senses aren't always reliable with regards to the physical world either you think about it to the naked eye a pencil placed in a glass of water looks bent and highway appears to have water on it in the distance on a hot day but it still rational to acknowledge that there is an objective truth about the pencil right either. It's straight or bent or an objective truth about about the highway. It's either wet dry even though our senses don't always comprehended accurately likewise perfectly rational to believe that there does is exist a realm of true and objective moral values in duties even though our moral senses don't always apprehend them all perfectly either now when people bolt deny premise to it's okay to put them to the test using tough questions that really cut to the heart of our moral experience and even our humanity entity so just ask them okay you don't think objective moral values and duties exist so what do you think about the rape and torture of women in the sex trafficking industry history or what about the terrorist attacks of nine eleven or how about the sexual abuse of little boys which has taken place in the catholic church and their cover up abuse by church leadership. Don't you think those things are really wrong. Regardless of the perpetrators opinions. I would say almost almost every time an honest person will agree that there are at least some objective moral values in duties in the world okay so now that we've established premise to it's time for the big question surrounding premise one why think that god is a requirement for objective moral values in duties. I think we can answer this by reflecting on another question apart from god what foundation could there possibly be for objective moral all values and duties on a._t._m. Human beings are just one of many byproducts of nature which have evolved relatively recently in science actually tells us the universe will eventually run down when all matter and energy are evenly distributed and no life will be possible. This means means that the human species is doomed to extinction in a relatively short period of time with this in mind it becomes impossible to assign any objective value to humans or provide any basis for moral obligations to one another because in the end it all ends the same extinction non-existence michael reuss philosopher of science from the university of wealth in. I think it was on antero candidate. He writes the the position of the modern evolutionist is that humans have an awareness of morality because such an awareness of biological worth morality a biological adaptation no less than her hands and feet and teeth. I appreciate when someone says love thy neighbor by self. They think they're referring above and beyond themselves. Nevertheless such references truly without foundation morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction in any deeper meaning meaning is illusory unquote additionally without a transcendent foundation for objective human value in moral duty. There can be no ultimate ultimate moral accountability and therefore no ultimate justice and no ultimate hope. These are vital aspects to human existence think about bounded on atheism. What justice is there for. The innocent child killed in the crossfire during war or what hope can be held for the starving family on the brink of death and a third world country. Atheism has nothing to offer in these situations but the theorist particularly the christian theus can provide a basis for justice in hope because they have a foundation for ultimate moral accountability and human in value so i think we can see without god is the foundation there can be no objective moral values and duties and yet deep within each of us we do apprehend realm of true rights and wrongs good and bad thus it is most reasonable to conclude that are human moral. The existence is best explained by a transcendent moral foundation known as god like to thank you for listening sending today's episode of ministers are on the goat podcast released every second and fourth monday of the month in which we seek to answer a specific question related to everyday ministry additionally be sure to catch are fooling episodes that release every first and third monday of the month and which are co host come together to discuss beneficial topics on doctrines and practices this for the everyday minister. If you enjoyed today's episode we encourage you to subscribe to the podcast through the podcast catcher of your choice we can be found on itunes google google plant stitcher tune spotify and youtube today we pray peace and grace to you through our lord jesus christ and happy ministering fran. Let me <music> they didn't aw.

youtube roy celanese royce spotify rape michael reuss catholic church university of wealth one hundred percent fifteen minute
Did a powerful coach groom his talented young runner for sex?

The Big Story

28:18 min | 11 months ago

Did a powerful coach groom his talented young runner for sex?

"The problem at the heart of today's story an ugly one but it's not particularly unique. A grown man in a position of power allegedly uses that power to groom a young woman. I as a friend and as a partner and finally for a sexual relationship if there's one thing the past few years of these stories should have taught us. It's that this scenario happens absolutely everywhere. But what happens when the story goes public? That varies wildly depending on the world in which it happens in large companies and big industries by now there is a process or at least there should be even in smaller companies. There's usually a structure of some sort in place in the tiny insular world of Canadian long distance running though there's not much of that to speak of and the allegations that landed in a national newspaper almost two weeks ago have exposed just how badly some oversight is needed in these small communities almost two decades ago now a promising young woman met a notable coach and the story went the way these stories sometimes go and nobody talked nothing was done until it hit the papers and now at tiny world of Canadian long distance running has been blown wide open and nobody knows what happens now I'm Jordan Heathrow. This is the big story Michael. Dale is a freelance journalist for this particular investigation. He worked with the globe in Mail. Michael Hi how are you doing? I'm doing well. You performed quite a deep dive on a problem that I don't think a lot of people even knew was on anybody's radar. Why don't you start by telling us who's Meghan Brown certainly Megan Brown? Actually if if you're a fan of track and field and Canada you may remember the name because she was a bright star Ten fifteen years ago. was better apex or career And she started off as a high school genome. She ran very briefly with a club called. Speed River Track and Field Club in wealth and also briefly with the University of wealth before moving on to the University of Toronto. She had some success ultimately she didn't become an Olympian or the next great Canadian distance runner And my investigation in part unearth. Y happened or why it didn't happen in the same vein than on just so we have the two characters upfront. Who is Dave Scott? Thomas Dave Scott. Thomas is or was until very recently arguably the most powerful individual and track and field in Canada. He was a coach at the University of wealth which is a powerhouse program and track and field only rivaled with US schools and he also had a speed river track and Field Club in wealth which had a number of Olympians that ran Ran With him at the club over the years and developed an unimaginable amount of talent there and he was a national team coach so he coached And the two thousand Sixteen Olympics as well so in a relatively small world in this industry in Canada he was one of the bigger names. He was an outsized figure for sure. I mean I one coach said to me. He sort of like a Scotty. Bowman type figure. He's a an empire builder on a lot of different levels But I would argue that within the cloistered world of of Canadian track and field and distance running. He was even much more powerful than that. So let's start by going back to the beginning and tell me how Meghan Brown Matt Dave Scott Thomas. It all started in the fall of two thousand and one when. Megan was a sixteen year old kid and she was very new to running. Suliman wearing a couple of years. Her Mom had died When she was a teenager and she discovered running after her mother's death in part a coping mechanism and she won the junior race at the Ontario Cross country. Championships that the high school championships which is a pretty incredible feat for someone running and Dieskau. Thomas saw her. That meet identified her as the up and coming feed on that she was. I suppose luckily for him. She happened to be a local kid. She was from the farm community outside of wealth area so he in the weeks after her win went to her high school and recruited her there at that time when she is sixteen and he's recruiting her. How big a deal was he. Then would have been like being recruited by Scotty Bowman at that time Not Quite but he was definitely an up and coming force certainly locally it would be a big deal Guelleh was At the university level was developing as a top flight school and his program that was sort of attached to the school. The Speed River Track and Field Club was becoming a known commodity in the running scene and he was attracting some talent but this was at the very beginning the building stages and he's a very charismatic figure. As well he you know. He offered her an opportunity in a situation for her to grow her talent. And obviously it was you know in the community so she and her father who is a a widower. The time trusted Mr Scott Thomas to take care of their daughter. She spoke to you in a lot of depth for this story. What does she say about their relationship? Their working relationship in the early days. I think it was Positive and then it became very intense. Very quickly They develop you mean by intense while the very quickly started spending a lot of time together and time not just in terms of after school when he's coaching around the track but even after that and according to many of the athletes that I spoke with that were present at that time while she was still a high school kid training at speed river they would disappear off in the car they will go for drives And as Megan told me later in our interviews He would take her for tea and they would spend long periods of time talking about a started off talking about running and then it very quickly diverged from that talking about each of their emotional states in his as much as hers and then e. Mail started Phone calls this is at the during the early days of the cell phone right so megan actually had a phone was kind of Sarab tissue going out and you know are up in her room or out on the road talking to Dave Scott Thomas while he was staying late at his office in the evenings. What do we know about what the people around this relationship thought about it? so far you've described stuff that I think would raise people's eyebrows but Perhaps not crossing particular line. The first problem is is that there was an incredible amount of blind trust given a day. Scott Thomas he started the program at the University of wealth it was nothing program by all accounts And he built it from nothing to quite something and later on to an incredible program And because of that he had unilateral power. It wasn't a whole lot of checks and balances going on university and put in place and parents trusted him as well He's sort of report himself to be a family man. He has daughters. He was married guy in his late thirties at the time. So there was a lot of trust built in their students Athletes in the in the club and athletes at the university Told me that they definitely. They started to gossip. They they definitely saw something going on but they're kids. They're they're teenagers. They're eighteen. Nineteen twenty years old others. A lot of jealousy actually Many many athletes told me former athlete told me that they felt a great deal of Chelsea towards Megan because she was occupying all of all of their coaches time. Right but the thing is is that Dave. Thomas gave her that time that attention so it was definitely a two way street. That was going on. Where did that lead in the fall of two thousand two? The speed river team led by Dave. Scott Thomas went in an RV and drove out to Moncton for The National Cross Country Championships. A Megan was the only teenage girl in the group who was a lot of like university students that were going out and you know it was a really fun time for her. She was very excited. This is the first big trip for our She's a pretty naive kid as well and she ended up winning that meet. She won that the national junior title. Which is a huge deal and meant that you'd be going to a world championships the CA- following year and that night after winning title instead of going out with friends her teammates and celebrating She went on a drive with Scott Thomas in that. Rv She alleges and That's when he approached her of with the idea of a relationship he won't. He was kind of probing her for how she felt about him emotionally and sexually as well and shortly after that a sexual relationship again between the two of them and she was seventeen years old. He was thirty eight so the topic. At least of the relationship is broached right after her biggest victory so far and and what should have been the first of of many. What happens the weeks after that according to Meghan Will shortly after that after they come back from the National Championships in Moncton Her and Mr Scott. Thomas actually go for a trip alone in his car. T. FROM WEALTH TO TORONTO. A day trip they went to the the ROM. The Ryland Area Museum Museum and in the exhibit somewhere He kisses her and then later on that evening they drive back to wealth they go to The Arboretum which is large forested area owned by the university where he actually trained as athletes. And that's where they they had Megan's first sexual encounter in her life in his car and She says that she felt it was an ultimatum. that he gave her before they had sex. Which was that either heavy relate sexual relationship with me or You're going to lose everything that we built. Of course she chose the former. I think she realizes now that consent was not possible at that point in her life based on her age based on the the power dynamic that existed between the two of them So from there on in there was a A two year secret sexual relationship That they maintained until she was a Shortly after she joined the University of Wealth As a student athlete. How does that kind of thing happen? And I think this sounds like kind of a stupid question because we now hear about this kind of thing happening often but how does something like that happen? Within a relationship that has so many power dynamics involved and nobody around it does anything. I mean you mentioned. They might not have known about the romantic aspect of the relationship that you mentioned that her teammates were certainly aware. Was anybody else involved with the club or the university aware that this was going on. I mean this is a debate. That's kind of turned the running community in Canada. Too Right now which is Those that were a part of the University of Guel for Speed River Track and Field Club at that time. Either as coaches or athletes. Many of them now are very prominent. Athletes Olympians Hi Hi level coaches and people involved in an endurance sports on a very big in a very big way being called a question about what they may or may not have known and that was a tough question that I had to ask many people which is a roundabout way. Like what did you know? What did you not know and I think the consensus was? There was a lot of gossip about it but the attitude towards it. When you're say sixteen seventeen eighteen twenty years old? I think is very different than now when you're in your late thirties early forties looking back at the time and realizing how vulnerable. Megan was and realizing how serious a situation this is and Megan herself. Feels that some people particularly those in positions of power either knew or should have known worrying willfully ignorant and You know obviously it's up to those people to be honest about what they did not know. So what happened over those next couple of years? And how did it all because obviously Meghan Brown is now not a household name in the world of Canadian running? Everything kind of fell apart in her first semester. At university she was having incredibly incredibly difficult. Time personally. Psychologically Her mental health was deteriorating significantly. She ended up spending quite a bit of time in mental health facilities over that two year period where they had a relationship and in her first semester at the University of wealth It all came to a head and to events one was Mr Scott. Thomas discovered that his wife was pregnant with their third child and she felt him trying to create distance between him and and her and then she also Ended up telling a teammate about the relationship Which caused chaos and in December of two thousand four? She confronted Mr Scott Thomas in his office. She told him that she had told the teammate about their relationship. He became furious. He allegedly assaulted her grabbed her by the throat. Slammed her against a wall toler she was done at the university and She ended up in the Gulf General Hospital that later that night and hysterics and was ostracized from the university. Last University did not come back the following semester at that point. Megan and her family tried to rebuild her life and her career and she ended up at the University of Toronto where she acquitted. Quite a bit of success She did become a top flight runner again. Eventually and also her father went to University of wealth in two thousand and six and indicated to them that something had gone on and provided them with evidence provided them with copies of emails and letters From Mr Scott Thomas to his daughter from the time she was a high school student And that's when there's this really complicated institutional helmet in this story. Yeah where The university decided to believe their coach instead of her. What happened in a months? After Megan's father brought these allegations forward. Yeah so in the fall of two thousand six she Megan's Dad who's been carrying this rage but yet has been completely handcuffed by the fact that his daughter is very very fragile mental state decides to do something about it his Meghan a better place. She's running at the University of Toronto. Things are fairly stable so he quietly goes to the University of Wealth. He actually sends a letter to the president at the time. Alastair similarly and he just wants to flag this issue he wants to indicate quietly discretely to them. The analogy kept set using the metaphor was You've got a snake in your barn and he thought that they would want to do something about this Out of fear that Mr Scott Thomas would have another inappropriate relationship with a student and instead the university handled at in just about the exact opposite capacity. Which is that they according to. Mr Brown became very defensive and he felt threatened by it. They lawyered up They hired a A consultant and I would use air quotes to investigate the situation Kept extremely quiet. None of the seventy athletes that I spoke with many of whom were training in two thousand six at the university ever heard of an investigation. No one was interviewed And Megan's father did present university with emails and letters that Mr Scott. Thomas sent his daughter when she was a minor and The university resolved at the end of a very short investigation. A one and a half page document that they presented to him in the end saying that while they there was some form of emotional relationship between their coach and Meghan Brown that they did not find anything. overly egregious. That meant they needed. They had to fire him so they stuck with Dave Scott Thomas. He was also conveniently at the time. Dominant in the track and field. World teams. Were both men's and women's teams were winning National Championships. He won coach of the year. Both for the men's and the women's team that year as well so in the aftermath of that Megan's Dad Attempted many times to get various powers that be pay attention to this and investigate Mr Scott Thomas it. It never came to anything really until this story came out so fast forward then to the process of you preparing to report the story and talking to Megan and contacting the university. What happens when this investigation comes back? So the reason why I started looking into this was actually because of a second accusation against as Scott Thomas. I thought it was the first accusation against as Thomas Before I started this reporting and that happened in the fall of of last year a another student Came forward and made a complaint. The university's calling it a code of conduct complaint. They're not going into detail about it however when I started looking into this none of this was public this all rumor and some of my sources in the track and field world started sending me messages and asking me questions about. What do you know about day? Scott Thomas what's going on at twelve. He's not turning up at meets all of a sudden which is totally out of character. This is a man who lives and breathes running. And he's not appearing with his team at various meats and then I hear that he's on leave and it's a health related leave then it's a personal related leave. Universities not saying much at one point. Someone says to me as anyone ever asked. Megan Brown about what happened at during her brief stint at the University of wealth. All those years ago because there've been rumors about the two of them at obviously echoed out of out of so one night. I sat down from my laptop and stared at the cursor for about half an hour trying to figure out what how to write a an e mail Meghan Brown and eventually I you know stitch together a very kind of vague question which I think is was something along the lines of. I'm sure you've heard rumors about a situation. Wealth involving Dave Scott Thomas. I deeply apologize if this is totally off base or if there is you know this was just gossip that had no validity at all. But if there's anything that you WANNA talk about between you and day Scott Thomas I be willing to hear you out and I got an email back almost right away. And she said Michael I've been holding this story in for over fifteen years and I feel like now is the time to finally talk about it and she gave me a call shortly after that we had a very long. I interview where she went to the entire story in great detail. Once you've heard that story and you started doing reporting around that aspect of it. What happened in the world of track and field at the university because this this broke some things wide open when it came out. Yeah so first. Things first is I was horrified hearing this because I had heard the rumors myself as somebody. Who's reported on the athletics world for a number of years? I'd heard these rumors for about a decade. And you know you never know how to manage a rumor You assume where there's smoke there's fire but I didn't know any of the details and know how how young she was and when she went into great detail about Her experience in about the manipulation and they power dynamic involved and the fact that her mom had died. I which I did not know And how vulnerable she was. I was horrified and I felt a great deal of guilt. I think that's something echoing through the track and field community in Canada today is that there's a great deal of guilt about kind of having a sense of this story but kind of gossiping about it and when Behan reporting on this it's a tricky situation because I can't show my hand too much and I also have to have a great deal of respect for for the sensitivity of Megan's story and her trust in me and you also don't want slander. Anybody either so the reporting was Was tough because you have to kind of unwind. These interviews are very long interviews. I mean over seventy people in a lot of these interviews. Were over an hour long. I spoke to several athletes for two hours About this kind of unpacking this and piecing all of these details together but from an institutional standpoint There was A lot of push back from the University of wealth terse basic statements being sent in my direction in an attempt to control the narrative throughout this in an attempt to look as though when they felt the heat coming around the corner in terms of like my detailed list of allegations that that we sent to them at one point Then that there was a public response came out very quickly after that that was. I think fashioned to look as though they were offering it on their own when in fact there are aware that there was a story that was forthcoming. There's also another institutional element of this. Which is the Athletics Canada? The governing body of the support. They were aware of this as far back as two thousand and six this was information that was passed on from CEO to see. Oh and they still continue to leverage. Mr Scott. Thomas is a national team coach. You seen sort of guru type figure so they had a lot to answer for. There's been a big reckoning An ally at a real break of trust between a elite level athletes in this country and their governing body. Once the story came out or maybe even before the story came at what happened to Dave Scott Thomas or they put him on leave in the fall. There was a secret of leave. Nobody knew that he was forced on leave until it was convenient for the university to say that they'd forced him on leave the story broken in earlier this year and he has been fired From the university his track and Field Club which had over four hundred members and significant designation in the in the track and field community in Canada has dissolved and he has been suspended as a national team level. Coach Provisionally suspended by Athletics Canada while they investigate him further and will here at some point later on this year. The results of that investigation. My anticipation is probably be be banned from coaching candidate for life. And he has gone into hiding Teed denies a much of the reporting that I've done Through his lawyer although his lawyer would not indicate exactly what he denied I received one statement from from his lawyer while we were preparing this and since then we have not heard anything from day. Scott Thomas what does it do going forward to this kind of tight knit community? There's an Olympics coming up later. This year presumably were sending a lot of these runners to the Olympics. What happens in a in a world like that when something like this goes down? I don't feel good about this because I'm not I? I'm a runner myself. I care deeply about this community but someone said to me that this is kind of the most damaging thing that's happened to track and candidates and spend Johnson and ripple effects of this have been significant There are multiple potential Olympians training wealth. At the time they have Scattered and within the community itself. It's really divided people There are the G- wealth alumni on one side who in many cases were victimized. I mean one thing we've not really talked about was in the aftermath of the Mega Brown situation. Dave Thomas Sort of distanced himself from very vulnerable athletes and actually became a fairly cruel coach to certain. Type of athlete of a vulnerable impressionable. Young most usually female athlete and a win at all cost mentality. Kind of developed with all of his success was in that aftermath. But it was kind of created this like Meat Grinder an athlete Meat Grinder at the university in order to gain that success. And so you've got this whole series of alumni From his program that had their own traumatic experience and they are now left answering questions and being criticized by others in the running community who feel as though they enabled Mr Scott Thomas or perhaps should have known something or done. More blown the whistle So there's been an incredible amount of unfortunate infighting in the running community and candidates. It's really torn the community apart. What happens next? Is there a way that a community as a whole can get past us or is just going to have to play itself out be fractured for a while? I mean I think the running community is a particularly vulnerable. One when it comes to predatory behavior. It's an individualistic sport highly. Self-motivated kids really like precocious vulnerable. Kids get involved running. I mean writings a really weird support. Especially when you're young you're suffering. I mean it's yeah it's a it's a sport we're like. Know Team Sports. You you go do laps punishment right. So you're you're there's a certain type of kid who excels at running So what we're seeing now is first of all. Were having to deal with a reckoning a reckoning of coaches and position of power who have abused that power predominantly male. Older male coaches in younger. Female Athletes This is greater story that I'm exploring in sport right now. And so there's that wrecking that has that has to take place where we have to create A safer environment for young athletes. So there's that conversation then there's the conversation of what to do about like there's a lot of blame kind of finger pointing going on right now and getting past that healing those wounds as well It's it's going to be significant and I don't really know how you get through that. I think there needs to be a lot of dialogue a lot of open conversation. And that's tough because when you attempt to have that conversation on social media it often turns quite negative. I don't know exactly where we go from here. But my hope is that this will open up a positive conversation about how to to make sports safer and To allow good coaches to succeed and flourish and to weed out bad coaches which I think there are. I mean getting a lot of tips since the since the story was published so unfortunately at least they're giving you the tips. Yeah I'm exploring a lot of avenues right now in both track and even outside of track. Thanks Michael Michael. Doyle is a freelance journalist works with the Globe and Mail. That was the big story. You'd like more you know where we are the Big Story. Podcast DOT CA. I say it every time you can also find us on twitter and complain or praise at the Big Story F. P. N. And we're in every single podcast player on the planet. You have to find me one that we're not in and show it to me. Apple. Google stitcher spotify downcast. Which had never heard of until today. Thanks for listening. I'm Jordan Heath Rawlings. We'll talk tomorrow.

Mr Scott Thomas Megan Brown University of wealth Meghan Brown Dave Scott Thomas Matt Dave Scott Thomas Dave Scott speed river Field Club Canada Michael Michael University of Toronto Olympics Dave Thomas Sort Athletics Canada Moncton Mr Scott partner Dale Scotty Bowman
A supply chain explainer, or why you can or cant find flour

The Big Story

24:38 min | 9 months ago

A supply chain explainer, or why you can or cant find flour

"The the first thing you should know about our guest today is that. He's got flower like in his house and he just bought it in a store. Really all kidding aside. He is living proof that despite what I might see at my local grocery stores Canada's food supply chain is working even for flower but if it is and why can't I find flour. And why can't my friend who lives up in the country? Get fresh bread in order to answer that you have to start with the basics of how Canada's food supply chains operate. I say chains because when you start to have it explained first thing you learn is that there are two of them and those two supply. Chains are very different so from a beginner's guide to those chains to the impact of cove in nineteen breaks and meat packing plants on them to why you should really think about eating fries while you're on lockdown and how much more you might pay for groceries this fall. We're going to walk you through with the past couple of months have done to the journey. Your food takes between farm and table. And we'll do that as soon as Claire tells you what you need to know today. The federal government is pledging two hundred and fifty two million dollars to ease pressures on the country's agriculture industry. Last month the Canadian Federation of Agriculture asked for two point six billion dollars but Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says the amount being given now is a point. We will continue to work with farmers with a stakeholders and industry representatives with provinces and territories to ensure that food food capacity in this country. And those people who worked so incredibly hard every single day to feed Canadians get the support that they need through this crisis and beyond Alberta plans to double its capacity to test for the current a virus four point five million dollars will be spent on new equipment and technology right now. The province is doing about seven thousand tests day and they want that number at sixteen thousand Quebec. The hardest hit province in candidate is lifting some of the restrictions on private seniors homes for nearly two months. Now residents have not been allowed to have visitors and they've not been allowed to go out and accompanied the premier says now some residents will be allowed to go out on their own and they can have visitors but they have to be outside as of Tuesday evening. Sixty two thousand forty six cases of covert nineteen in Canada with four thousand one hundred and sixty six deaths Jim Jordan Heath Rawlings. And this is the big story. Michael von Maso is an associate professor of food agriculture and resource economics at the University of wealth where he also hosts their food focus. Podcast Hi Michael. I'm going to get you to explain something that I probably haven't had thoroughly explained to me before we get into. Why can't buy flour so just start by describing the supply chain to me? What is it? How does it work? Supply chain is the path or the or the series of steps that a product goes from from production to win we as customers get into in the case of food. It's a restaurant or a retail store or it may be try that delivers it to our house. And so the scope or the or the scale of the supply chain depends on exactly what we're looking for so again for food it starts at the farmer but in some cases we might also consider the inputs that that farmer buys fertilizer seed and things like that farmer then sells it to a processor. There may be a step in the middle processor may sell it to a further processor. Who then will package it and sell it into distribution who? Then we'll sell it into a restaurant or into a retailer. There could be more or fewer steps depending on the specific product and it can be food or it can be cars but it is those those steps in the process to get from where it starts to to where we can buy it. And it's not just the physical companies that do it. Is the relationships with between those companies that we define as the supply chain. So how has Canada's food supply chain And I realize I'm asking speak a bit. Generally but but how has that hoped with The covert nineteen crisis. Well if you look notwithstanding some sort short-term demand based shortages that we've seen that. I'm sure we'll talk about. I would say that the supply chain has performed remarkably well. It's demonstrated that it's been robust and resilient and in the face of an unprecedented demand shock. It's bent but not broken and We've still been able to to buy most food products and the supply chain is catching up to give us those products that are occasionally somewhat still shortage so. Yeah let's get into that because if it's performed remarkably well there's also some staples that a lot of grocery stores have been missing like it's been six weeks. I can't get flour. I know some people in cottage country had trouble getting eggs and bread like those seem like pretty basic failures of the supply chain around my wrong. Well I think I I think yes. They are failures of the supply chain and supply based failures. So I think that some of the shortages have been localized and or inconsistent. So I I'm not bragging but I've been able to get flour and so we we have lots of flour and in fact some yeast in our house that we've been able to buy at our local stores and I think often it depends on when you go to the store and so demand has gone up. So why is there a change in demand while there's been a couple of things that have contributed to the change in demand? The first thing is we've seen this dramatic increase in demand at retail stores driven. By the fact that we're no longer buying much if anything in food service so the demand or the the quantity were buying at the grocery store up and the system has to catch up we have kind of just in time system where we were reproduce an order to expected or forecasted demand and when that demand changes the system takes a while to catch up. The other thing that's happened is we had some panic. Buying so people were buying more than they needed to a significant degree. That has decreased. I think we still have the psychology if I see something on the shelf and it's the last item on the shelf. We may buy it but I think people. We have perishable products in many cases. So there's only so much room we have for storage and only so long we. We can store some of these things so I think that sort of panic buying has diminished and the last thing is because we're going to the grocery store less frequently many of us are are buying more things in each individual's shop and that sort of demand comes what I call a little bit lump here and little bit harder to predict so some days demand will be higher and other days demand will be lower depending on how many people come into the store so all of those things have shot the supply chain. And it's not just having the product it's also having the packaging to put that product in so that we can get it to the retail store so demand for flower is a product you brought up is generally low in the summer. We like to be outside. We'd like to Barbecue. We bake significantly less than than we do. Maybe a net pre-christmas time line and so they weren't looking to produce a bunch of flowers and then all of a sudden. We started buying flour so the system had to catch up. It's not like we're short of wheat. But we were to a degree short of some of the packaging that we would put that flower in. And so that's what's constrained getting to the market. So while some stores have white flour Some of the specialty flowers have been hard to find multi grains or whole wheats because as. They're catching up to the increased demand. They focused on the core product. So I would expect to see some of those secondary products show up in grocery stores. Relatively soon I want to ask you about something. You mentioned a couple times now. Which is that. There are kind of two to supply chains one for retailers and one for food service and then at the same time you mentioned that well our home cooking and home. Demand has gone up. Demand for food services obviously bottomed out. So how different are those supply chains? And why can't they just move supplies from the restaurant side of things to the retail side of things so that we don't see these kind of shortages sometimes so there are a couple reasons? That's a great question. The first is those supply chains. Start at the same place. They all start on the farm. The processors while they may have different customers and different relative focus will also be the same but once we get to the distribution step. We see those two supply chains diverge so that companies that supply restaurants are distinct from the distribution systems that supply retail stores and so we have to establish different relationships at we have to divert product. We have inventory in some of those food service companies distributors that has to be rerouted logistics. We have to make sure we have enough trucks to to to do that diversion. I was speaking the other day to the president of Canadian Restaurant Distribution Company. And he said one of the things that they're doing is not only selling some of their products to retailers but helping retailers with logistics because their trucks aren't as busy helping retailers get from suppliers to retailer stores them with that trucking step so that trucking step is not an insignificant challenge. Either so it is. It is it's not just flicking a switch products or somewhere else. It's finding someone who can move that product effectively for you the other thing. I think that that's important to remember. Is that. We don't eat exactly the same products in restaurants as we do at home and a couple of examples are we almost no chicken wings. At home chicken wings are restaurant or bar item and so demand for chicken wings has gone down the size of chickens that we eat that we prefer retail is usually a little bit smaller than the size of chicken that they produce for food service so the products are always identical. We drink more milk at home than we do in restaurants but we eat more cheese in restaurants. Think Pizza that we do at home and so it's not just moving the product. It's also sometimes changing the products that were producing for the different markets in that takes some time the last point. I'll make in that. If I may is that we also package things differently. If you're producing two percent milk for Tim Hortons. You're either putting it into those small cremers or you're putting it into large bags that they put into dispensers whereas if you're producing it for laws or or Sohbi's you're putting it into the variety of retail packaging and so again you have to have that packaging on hand. You have to divert the production system to do that. So you don't just flick. A switch and product moves from one place to the other. There are changes in products changes in packaging and changes in the links in the supply chain including transportation that have required some time to adjust. How much do we want to adjust those supply chains? I mean if it's not as easy as flicking a switch? Do we want to push for an adjustment or will that make it difficult to switch back like some of the things you're talking about sound like pretty fundamental changes in how we do these next? Well I think we do want to switch because if you think about it again to the just in time process for things like milk were producing milk day for things like eggs were producing day and if we if we just shut off that production then we'll we'll be shortchanging retail and not selling into food service. So we want those. We want production to continue. We're also buying more stuff in retail. Because we were spending a third of our dollars a third of our food dollars in food service. We're not doing that anymore. We still need that food so we do need to redirect it into the retail side. It just has taken some time on the flip side as we as we go back and we see restaurants open. I think there are a couple of factors that will that will smooth that process and not lead to some of the same shortages that we've seen as we switched away from food service. I we know it's coming. I think to a significant degree. This is a surprise but we know we know the reopening is coming. We don't know exactly when so we'll have the opportunity to plan for the second point is that it's much easier to ramp up slowly than it is to flick a switch you know. Restaurants went from one hundred miles an hour two zero at literally almost in twenty four hours. We're not going to go up to that same level of demanded restaurants anytime soon even as he's open up again. I think there are a variety of factors. Physical distancing is going to require that capacity in the average sit down. Restaurant is probably going to go down about fifty percent so the only be able to hold half as many people I think also until we get a vaccine there will be some hesitancy on the part of some people to go out and eat in restaurants. You can wear a mask and go to the grocery store you can wear a mask and go to the hardware store and buy things you need. You can't go to a restaurant and wear a mask the whole time and so I think that unfortunately for the restaurant sector that ramp up again will be much more gradual than the ramp down will be and because they'll -ticipant it. I don't expect that. We'll have the same sort of disruption in the system that we did in the initial shock tell me about that initial disruption in the system because it sounds fascinating to have restaurant demand. Go Down to basically zero within twenty four hours like you said so what actually happens at the supply chain level when that when that happens. It's a shock right. It is it is an and anticipated shock. So you'll have producers and in and has been different in different markets and it's been different in different segments because of the both the supply chain relationships and the production process. So if you look at milk as an example that we heard about when it happened. We had markets for milk and cheese that all of a sudden disappeared and we had to divert that milk two processors who could make the products in the packaging that was demanded for the customers that for whom it was demanded. And so we had this sort of realignment within the system in Canada. We have central marketing for Milk. So all farmers sell their milk to the same organization that then allocates it out to processors and so in in that system the the supply chain had existing relationships with all the processors they just had to divert it and those processors had understand which customers. We're going to order how much you know. Retailers had to figure out how they're demand change so that they could order the amounts that they thought they were going to need the new processes had to say. Well yes we can make it. But it's going to take some time to catch up. And they had to say what we have to order the right amount of packaging and the right type of packaging so that we can deliver that so there are all these individual levers in the supply chain that had to be switched and figured out and the logistics had to happen. And so it's a bit like a duck swimming on a pond while we sort of saw some shortages there's been a lot of scrambling underwater. Those feet have been moving very fast to make the adjustments that have been required. Is that kind of the root of the problems that I've been hearing about with regards to lake We have one hundred thousand tons of potatoes. That are going uneaten and that Kinda stuff is that is that disruption caused by the lack of restaurants to get them out like it. Is that all part of the problem. So so so. Potatoes are a great example. And and I was remiss for not bringing it up. So it's like it's a great question sixty percent of the French fries that we eat in restaurants and so we have all of these potatoes that were produced last summer in storage that were targeted for the French fry. Market that product late wings is fairly unique to the restaurant. Market and our consumption of potatoes at home hasn't gone up to the same degree as the demand for potatoes for French. Fries has gone down in the restaurant market. So in that case it wasn't just a transfer of demand. We just eat more potatoes out at restaurants in the form of fries so all of a sudden the product that had home no longer has a home. You can't divert it all and you maybe as to be good citizens of Canada. We should be eating more fries at home. But that's why we had that excess product there. We heard also about dumping of milk at the acute point of turnover that is likely more due to the fact that it was it was much easier to shut off demand than it was to switch product to others and there's just not a lot of buffer in the supply chain to store that milk so the average dairy farm has two to days storage of milk on the farm and milk is picked up usually every two days and processors than pro. It's a it's a perishable product. They process it quickly when it gets to them. And so if they aren't shipping product out the other side. They get full of milk. The farmer gets full of milk and we have this sort of tension in the supply chain. And that's why through it out. So in some cases it's just the process of adjustment in other cases. It is just the fact that that demand has disappeared in the case of French fries. So it kind of sounds like the supply chain as you say as performed remarkably well in his has either adapted or is in the process of adapting to the new normal. But I also finally wanted to ask you about what comes next and one of the things that's been on my mind as it's received a ton of coverage has been the covert outbreaks at meat packing plants. What could happen to the supply chain due to Cova nineteen like? Is that a danger of creating a big meat shortage Are there backups. And failsafes like. What does the future look like if that continues to happen? The meat industry is is a great example and and if we look at beef packing plants or pork packing plants. They are relatively unique in food. Supply chains because there is such a high degree of concentration that means they're big plants with small numbers of plants and that's a that's a competitive and inefficiency driven driven process. The other thing is that because cattle vary in size. There's been very little automation in these plants so they are still labor intensive facilities so you have large groups of people coming to work in relatively close proximity to each other. Not only. Does that happen within the plants but these plants are often outside of large urban centers. So they have to either bus or Carpool to get there. They also sit in lunchroom's they sit in locker rooms so there are lots of places where there is a strong opportunity for cross infection. So that's why those plants have become sort of hot spots for outbreaks. I want to highlight before I go any further that that doesn't mean that our meade is unsafe. It just means that we have to find ways of keeping the workers who process that meets safe in a way that we can keep that meet flowing we have a globally integrated supply chain for meat. And so the plant in high river which opened again yesterday but at reduced capacity represents roughly a third of the beef processing capacity in Canada that being closed significantly caused pain for Canadian beef producers but we have cattle and beef moving across the US. Canada border all the time and globally and we saw an example of McDonalds bought all of their Canadian be from from the plant in high river. They came out and said we're not going to be able to maintain our commitment to Canadian. Beef we're going to be buying from the US until such time. That plant reopens and we can go back. And so we've seen product adjust from different sources to make sure that we don't have any disruptions at the consumer end that said it's caused significant disruption for for farmers who've been used to shipping to those plants. My last question for you is just what should I be watching for over the next weeks and months in terms of disruptions in the supply chain or signs? That actually it's fine. It's getting back to normal. Well I think as you said at the beginning we're starting to see those products come back in stores. As I said I've been able to get eggs I've been able to get flour at my local store. I haven't been able to get specialty flower that I might like. I think we'll start. Seeing some of those specialty products the diversity of products that maybe has disappeared a little bit comeback into stores which will be reassuring to say. Yep The supply chain is coming back. I think if I was looking for any red flags to pop out the things I would be looking at our again in meat processing if more plants close and if more plants closed for longer periods of time then we might start seeing some impacts on probably not supply. Because it'll probably stay domestic and we'll export less but we may start seeing some increases in grocery store prices so I don't expect that to happen but if we see more plants closed particularly in the US and they closed for longer periods of time. Then we might start seeing some concern with with respect to the availability of beef or pork. Michael thank you for taking the time and we appreciate it and my producer. We'll give you our address where you can send that flower. I'm not sure. How can I share but I will? I'll be happy to send you a little bit all right. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me stay safe. Michael von mass out of the University of wealth also the host of the food focus podcast and that was the big story. If you'd like more you can head to the Big Story. Podcast DOT CA. You can also talk to us on twitter anytime at the big story f. p. m you can also e mail us. The address is the big story podcast. That's all lower case and all one word at our DOT ROGERS DOT com. You can type you can send us a voice memo. You can send US video. Whatever you like. We love to hear from you and of course this podcast is available. Everywhere you get podcast Apple Google stitcher spotify and at frequency PODCAST NETWORK DOT COM. Where you can find a whole bunch of other really good podcasts. Thanks for listening Jordan Heath Rawlings. We'll talk tomorrow.

Canada lake We Michael von Maso US University of wealth Canadian Federation of Agricul federal government Fries Justin Trudeau Claire Quebec Alberta producer Jim Jordan Heath Rawlings spotify
How To Feed The World

Ideas

55:18 min | 1 year ago

How To Feed The World

"How do you take down criminal network hidden in the shadows? I tell him that. I know that they're the ones who are running the largest child abuse website on the dark net the journalists working to expose the darkest corners of the Internet. That's your playroom for that's your baby's clothes. That's my house. The police ace who hunt down online predators. The environment. They're using no we didn't we didn't make it. They made it hunting. MOORHEAD subscribe wherever you get at your podcasts. This is a CBC DC podcast idealize the idea for the mind. What come to ideas? I'm Nulla Iot. The most basic of human actions actions eating has never been so complicated. Our food often travels long distances with myriad stakeholders along the way transporter's sellers and eventually consumers and that's why we refer now to food systems. We talk all all the time about what happens. Between the actual production of food and the way in which that food is then processed warehoused the housed distributed retailed or marketed and then consume these food systems face all sorts of talent in climate change conflict automation lack of infrastructure and of course humans we live in an interdependent and food world but we act as though where in it just for ourselves wall more than eight hundred million people around the world get sick from chronic hunger. Those in richer nations are increasingly. Getting Diseases stemming from over indulgence she we humans a relatively Likud dealing with scarcity we have techniques that we can use to eke out supplies. We have ways of storing an and coping with periods of shortage with much less. Good dealing with plenty. David Navarro is the CO Director of the the Imperial College Institute of Global Health Innovation at Imperial College London. He's also a longtime advisor to the UN on Sustainable Development Elephant in two thousand eighteen. He was co recipient of the world food price for his work in improving global access to better nutrition. If you are not food-secure if you having periods when you're hungry or when you can't get access to the right food the consequences of your health fear intellectual development especially if you're young absolutely extraordinary in this episode where calling how to feed the world ideas producer he'd Moustapha talks to David Nabarro. You'll also hear excerpts from talk. He gave at the Arrow Food Institute University of Wealth I started working on food actually forty five years ago when I was a medical dr working in the Himalayas looking after children who got sick and I found that so many of the children that I was working working with was sick because they weren't getting adequate food to eat or if they were getting adequate food they were affected. Acted by diseases particularly parasites. That meant that the food that they ate did not go into their bodies came out and they got sin and malnourished and so I very quickly realized that although it was important that I was doing medicine in prescribing ah treatments of various kinds that unless I really got to understand about food and nutrition than I wasn't going to have any a long term impact on the well-being of the people who was responsible for and at the beginning. I was a doctor in a small clinic seeing about one hundred patients a day. But then over the next twenty years I shifted to being involved in policies in in non-governmental organizations policies in government teaching in universities about the relationship between a person's health then nutrition and the food that they eat and I realized very quickly that actually food and nutrition is super super important for health but in particular that this concept of food security R. E. Having access to enough affordable food for your health and your nutrition is a fundamental basic requirement for human development. Went and that if you are not food secure if you having periods when you're hungry or when you can't get access to the right food. The consequences focuses for your health fiel- intellectual development especially if you're young absolutely extraordinary and that led me over the years into you working with the United Nations on issues to do with food security particularly after the period in two thousand eight when food prices on global markets rose by thirty percent in the space of four months. There were riots in thirty eighty four countries. A number of governments fell because people just didn't get the food they needed and they were demonstrating in the streets and I realized realized that food security having enough to eat is not just an issue for your health but it's also an issue that has profound political consequences to the point where really many governments put ensuring that people get the food they need when they need it at a price. They can afford food very high up the ladder of political imperatives and so in two thousand eight. I was involved in trying trying to make sure that the United Nations as the organization that acts on behalf of all governments people's was able to have a coherent current policy on food security could then be shared with different governments and then governments could feed back and say whether or not that policy was useful in order to try to make sure that the numbers of hungry malnourished people in the world was able to drop wonderful. We we felt that we were winning on food insecurity but in the last three years the number has come up again and it's now about seven hundred and thirty million and something is going wrong so food security is still a problem in our world. It's still leading to hunger and malnutrition particularly weekly in poor countries. But also there is hunger and there is malnutrition even in advanced nations. And I expect that this is an issue in Canada as well. And you're nodding your head so we should keep in our minds that hunger malnutrition lack of access to the food that is needed for healthy. Life is a problem an issue everywhere and has to be built strongly into food policies. David you say in in your talk that in two thousand and nine and a few years afterwards we were winning on food insecurity but now food insecurity has returned. Why is that in two thousand eight weld food? Prices particularly rice and wheat rose dramatically over a few months. There was a thirty percent rise in the cost of rice and a slightly smaller rise in the cost of wheat and the result was an enormous much degree of upset with riots in more than thirty countries and over time quite a significant increase in the number of people he pulling the world who are poorly nourished as a result of it getting insufficient food indeed. At that time the number of hungry eight people crossed the threshold of one billion that was like one seventh of the world's population subsequently as a result of some really good work. Internationally there was a fabulous response Sunday numbers of hungry and then acutely malnourished people in in the world dropped to around six hundred million and and I think it probably went lower than that but in the last three years that a number of hungry her started to come up again and so now we have seen for the third year running arise and the reason reason for that is that there are some really unfortunate wars underway in our world today particularly in Africa the tear affecting people's posibility to access food and that in turn is leading to hunger. It's man made hunger. We're also seeing more and more communities where climate change is leading to natural disasters like droughts and that is also fuelling hunger and so between these two causes of violent conflict and climate change where Unfortunately saying that hunger is returning to stoke the world population again and to do with this requires really concerted political action. And so when you saw that that Spike in numbers numbers and then the the lowering and then the rising again. Are you working with the same definitions of what constitutes hunger and malnutrition while what one of the issues. He's always is that colleagues. Who Do these measurements? Having to estimate noise revising their estimates. But I've spoken to the team that do this work there in two organizations they well food program and the Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN. And I've probed on this. They've said how ever way we look at the data we find. The numbers are rising. It's not an artifact of measurement. It's a reality. And so when there was this intervention and the number drops significantly to below six hundred million from a billion. What kinds of things that were happening on the ground that was allowing this to happen? The most important requirement in order to deal with periods of food shortage is to be able to pick-up let that food shortages developing and then to have the capacity to move food to the populations that are affected. The reality is that in any any country. There's a risk that some areas will be short at particular times because of weather or because of disruption to logistics or other factors but to modern economy. That's well governed is capable of moving food to ensure that nobody actually has hunger or even worse perhaps is affected by famine. And that's what and why it has been. The hallmark of modern civilization is the capacity to do with these kinds of challenges properly. Either we didn't countries or between countries at regional level one of the examples that I've often heard quoted is the way in which countries in West Africa through the sub-regional Group Echo was says it's called in English have been able to establish reserves of food and be able to move food across borders so that countries like Nigeria or neighbors can actually be able to cope with the occasional shortages that occur. So that's what's happened and by being able to full cost better. Wear the crises delighted to happen. The world has been much better able to cope with the shortage. In two two thousand and fifteen. For example in Ethiopia. There was a major drought an instead of having a huge famine like we had in nineteen seventy four. We had a very very hey good response. Because of what's called Ry Productive Safety net program that protected farmers from the effect of climate change and and climb clar an adverse weather on food availability so this question of maintaining stores a food. That's also an issue of infrastructure. That's not merely the presence of food or the availability saleability of food. It's also the question of whether or not these regions are able to actually store the food that they need for future use and that's swine. We refer now to food systems. We talk all the time about what happens between the actual production of food in the field in the like In the stable and the way in which that food is then processed wear housed distributed distributed retailed or marketed and then consume. That's only steps in the food system and it's all part of if that food system that matter when we are working to make sure that nobody runs short so keeping the different pieces of the system in place requires requires a combination of good work by government but also the engagement of the private sector the involvement of farmers and fishers IOS and the full engagement of consumers who themselves need to be able to express what they want when they need it and the price they can afford to pay if the system can react to consume a need and can respond in ensuring that the food arrives when and where it's needed then. The system is working the hunger that we're focusing on occurs when systems breakdown and in my experience it's really hard to maintain a well-functioning food system that can respond to shortages when there's violence being I used to try to handle conflict an so war is really are big enemy the moment in the fight against hunger well and that's what you do thinking about systems and how to transform them to make Food accessible to everyone and and so how. How's that going going? How's how's that been in terms attempting to get people to understand this this sort of holistic and novel way of looking at it well first of all? There is a a wonderful thing happening when it comes to food which is more and more people are thinking about where their food comes from how it's produced whether it's going to be good for the a house or their children's health also whether or not it's contributing to some of the climate problems that we have at the moment and that's great and I'm so pleased that there Orissa growing appreciation of the significance of food for both people on the planet but I want to stress one thing you i. Many of our friends and relatives can actually afford to eat good food. We can afford to have healthy healthy diets on our plates. We can afford to be respectful to those who are producing food. We can engage with farmers farmers small kits and frankly not live has never been so good for us when it comes to eating good food. That's been sustainably produced. But what I'm finding is on travel if there's a whole community of people who just don't have the same opportunities as we do and that's because they really don't have much much money in their pockets that perhaps living in Canadian terms on less than five dollars a day and For them if they don't get help it's very hard for them to be able to access. Well nourish well good nourishing food and that in turn means that. The the wellbeing well-being of their children know the well being of elderly people in particular can be endangered. So this food poverties we call. It is he's actually emerging urging in most parts of the world fortunately in in advanced countries there are very few who have food poor and government programs help them out. and that's no everybody and we got to keep lookout But in some other countries where government programs are not strong or where for example poverty is on the increase Ten situation is really very bad. Indeed and I want to stress that the current good situation that we're in amongst Well educated people affluent people in certain parts of the world. He's not a global truth. It's only really something for the elites and that's why my main challenge right now is to ensure that everybody can access nutritious food. Every body can eat food that enables them to live a good long life and everybody can eat food that sustainably produced as it does not cause damage the environment or harm to the animals when it's being produced unfortunately optionally as well as the quite large amounts of under nutrition and wealth today because of politics we also have nearly two billion people who who are getting various forms of illness as a result of aiding either too much or the wrong kind of food and we have a number of major epidemics. Yeah Mix of disease. The directly related one third of all deaths related. We have a global epidemic of type two diabetes the DART art related plus cardiovascular disease and cancers that are linked to what we eat there is therefore an increasing interest among ministers of health everywhere in trying to understand the links between Diet and disease and ensuring sense signals from what they're seeing their hospitals or what they're seeing medical clinics back to the people who produce and processed food saying although you're not directly not directly causing this disease because you're actors inside the food system you have to at least pay attention to this disease and that's culminated in lots of processes around the world various summits on Non Communicable Diseases where ministers of health have have come together and try to meet with people involved in food. Saying can you do something about the various epidemics are underway. Can you help us to try. Try to find a way to bring down. Obesity is it the role of the farmers. The roller the food retailers is at the roller the food processes is at the roller governments. WHO's going to be involved involved in dealing with that link between food and health outcomes is still being debated it's happening in many countries trying to find ways to shape keep the consumption patterns that people have to reduce the likelihood of disease and obesity? There's no single solution. Different countries are trying experimenting with Taxation Incentives Policies and trying to shift production increased consumption of vegetables reduce consumption of of Trans Trans fats and sugar. So that debate is underway. It's everywhere it's strong an something. The Food Sector UH companies and farmers have to be conscious of. They don't like it. No company likes to be told told that they have to take responsibility for actions that will indirectly lead to reduced levels of obesity. Be City or will lead to different consumption patterns because the company will say hang on. We're not actually directly responsible responsible for what people eat. So why should we be made responsible to which the answer and it's a tricky on is if you as a company a playing a major role inside food systems you also have to take some responsibility for what is actually happening inside those systems. Even if you cannot directly attribute some of the difficult outcomes to the actions of your company or one of the shifts that I've seen seen in my own lifetime is is the access to food in terms of abundance You know when I was growing up snacking was not a thing being desert with something that was considered a luxury or a special occasion type of treat And a lot of these kinds of foods have become come every day even consumed several times a day. I'm wondering does the abundance of food interfere with good policy making about food food. What I think that might be one of the most challenging questions? That one connects the ask of anybody involved in food policy and an deserve some thought you see we humans a relatively good dealing with Scarcity we have techniques that we can use to eke out supplies. We have ways of storing and coping with breath periods of shortage. Obviously they're risky but it's something that over the years we've been able to do indeed our our home our bodies and and and our lifestyles are so much adapted to that where working with much less good at dealing with plenty I mean face set when there is a lot of good stuff around almost by definition we tend to like to take advantage of it. We never quite know so when a bad day might come on and so learning to live with at least in nutritional terms what is an abundance conserve nutrients in our lives an abundance of tasty and satisfying nutrients as well learning to live with that and to find the balance uh-huh that represents good health and good nutrition is a tough one for all of us and I think we're in sort of interim and phase right now we've moved from a period when food shortages. were pretty much the norm. We had seasons when food was in short supplies. Supplies often quite short periods when there was plenty when we could all sort of eat more to a situation where any food that we want to provide a we couldn't afford it is available just about any time of year. That shift is one that is happened as you've just pointed out in your lifetime time and I think it may take a lifetime to for us to come to terms with it and that's why one of the things that I'm really keen to work on with schools schools and universities with businesses and with scientists more generally is what are the means of marketing. What are the means of education? What are the means of communication in society that can help us as a human race to cope with the reality? The food systems have enabled us to have abundance in so many settings. And how can we cope with this abundance without it being associated for example with a growing massive epidemic of type two diabetes without a really serious problem of widespread and growing obesity in children. An all that's associated with there are links between abundance and scarcity T- because just in using the climate change example. We are seeing evidence that food production and the land use news changes associated with food production is associated with around thirty percent of greenhouse gas emissions in today's world and those are the gases that the precipitating climate change so that means that are craving for a lot of food particularly cleaver animal based food produced in industrialized at an industrial scale. In some settings it may be contributing to climate change change and that climate change. Intern is contributing to shortages of food as a result of drought soil salination of soil in some some parts of the world so important to to recognize the Dow connections between abundance and and and deprivation relation with regard to food. Today's world you're listening to ideas on. CBC Radio One in Canada in North America on on Sirius Xm in Australia on our N.. And around the world at CBC DOT CA slash ideas. You can also stream us or get our podcast on the CBC. Listen out. I I it from Ryan Johnson. The Director of Star Wars comes nives out a fun. Fresh modern take on the classic whodunit mystery shop where everyone is a suspect after a family gathering has gone on arriving. True colors are shown and knives. Come Out starring Daniel Craig Chris Evans and Anna Jarvis knives out is certified fresh on rotten tomatoes opening theaters everywhere. November twenty seven Nearly four decades ago the UN's Brundtland Commissions published the first volume of its report. Our Common Future. It define fine sustainable development this way development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. Those future generations are here now and they're saying loudly and clearly that the economic decisions of previous generations have have compromised the planet and along with it. They're opportunities David. Nabarro is a physician activist. And you an adviser on Sustainable Development his conversation with ideas producer now. He'd Moustapha includes excerpts from a talk he gave at the University of wealth I think climate is far and away the most important and yet at the same time the most difficult issue that we as a human rights are facing right. Now it's because it's something that is relatively slow in responding to what we do. It's got a trend to it that we don't fully understand and it's a a problem. That's a common problem for. All of us the requires a collective solution and at the same time. Required is changes that none of us really want to be making more than anybody else. That is a huge amount of anxiety about whether or not we're all being asked to play the same share. or where some are the saints and others less saintly and so what I would like to say as we dig begin to climate and particularly looking at the links between EG and food and climate is that we must approach it with a local. Oh my mindset. Agan food has a huge role in helping societies to adapt to climate change and the need for adaptation is nowhere more profound than in drought prone areas which need to have production systems that can cope with climate change and still enabled people to be reasonably well fed and nourished so. There's a need for local specificity on adaptation. But there's also need for local specificity on mitigation. We have a rough idea that there is a big link between intensive livestock stock production and greenhouse gas emissions but we also know that there are particular livestock rearing practices the Dr Associated Eighty with much lower methane production than others and we need to be very precise on defining those practices and in rewarding and the low emission production practices where they're applied and making sure that we don't tar every livestock producer with the same brush. This has been a real problem because just a few months ago. The foundation produced a report titled Food Planet Health. Where if there was a sense among people involved in particularly beef that every beef producer was getting into a bad bad situation in response to their report because there was no disaggregation between the health and climate impact of different different patterns of production? So I'm so keen that the disaggregation local specification approaches applied here. We much better policies on sustainability and climate when we work as a block isolate ourselves and work independently. It's just the way things work because the only way we do with climate and sustainability issues is through working together govern for the future and the future means acting on in climate. All the projections and these are horrible. Reactions are that the earth is actually getting hotter more rapidly than we predicted and you are feeling they in Canada as much as any other country. Because you're seeing it happen in the north of your country and it's affecting ting food security and well-being of your northern populations in a really desperate way one of the things that you focus on is this idea of having a local mindset when it comes to confronting the challenges. How do we reconcile this problem of of having to act locally while the big decisions are made so far away away from from anything we can act upon while I y? It's interesting to me. How you how you phrased that question? You could have represented it in a different way. Now we've fabulous Internet and other means of communication. We're able at any time to get access to global understanding of his shoes admittedly often a bit confused. When there's disagreements agreements and then we can link that to local realities and used a global understanding to influence how we set about looking to local challenge recognizing that of course in real life? It's the local the really matters. That's where the good stuff in the bad stuff. Tends to happen but at least we can refer to the more global thinking global. Numerous that they're starting to emerge and and in a way. That's it's the way I see it admittedly. I'm in a privileged position because yes. My life is local in some ways but I also collaborate in the global environment. And I'm also able because I've been doing this for a few years to sort out which of the pieces Chisolm information. I most want to pay attention to which the pieces of information. I'll give slightly less credibility to and I think that's where the problem is. The global is cluttered. It's not clean. You don't have necessarily a series as of global standards that you can feel the key yardsticks around which ones live should be organized. I'm encouraging people to really be discriminating. When they look global information we have in the international system? I am twenty two agencies that have been setup over the years to establish standards for life standards for everything from MM telecommunications through to water to to food through the health and these twenty two what they're called specialized agencies ince's which are governed by all countries of the world. Do I believe offer the best that we've got for authoritative information commission on anything so the World Health Organization provides authoritative information on nutrition and health. The Food and Agriculture Organization sation provides authoritative information on crops on livestock on vegetables. Fruit fish and forest. And it's referring airing to these authorative sources is what I recommend more and more and more especially in this era of social media where there are all sorts of sources of information and especially when we've even got world leaders questioning whether or not we should believe science and believe in fact act so in summary take advantage of the fact that there are these specialized international agencies in the world used them Their information about what's good and what's less good may be about the best that we can find. You obviously spend a lot of time with a large cross-section action of people and I'm wondering in your experience. Do you think that that. The older generation fundamentally feels climate change as as an existential threat in the same way that younger people do. I've been involved in climate discussions now for well over ten years and I have been constantly intrigued by the collective challenge that leaders face to act on the climate crisis. He's in the international negotiation arena. It's just simply apparently just it's too difficult for a lot of leaders to be able to handle in a way that takes account of the intense shifts. That after be made absolutely exception was in the run up to the twenty-first convention of the product is the Paris Climate Corp in December. Two thousand. And Fifteen. where it did seem the sire as a result of very powerful leadership from a number of world leaders shift to place during the last year I've watched as younger people in particular a turning round to the degeneration and saying don't you realize that this climate change Situation is endangering our future and the future of our children and surely they say something that says serious as that needs much greater concerted attention. They're saying to the current generation of older leaders. Words like you're not acting our interests interests you'll acting in your interests and I think that this is leading to a number of people in gene positions of authority and power right now to to ask them themselves all we actually actually reflecting the interests of young people when we do this work and some of the older group are actually questioning their motivations. This is a very very interesting situation because what it means. Is that this. His failings of young people who are not scared of saying to people of my age. You'll letting us down is actually beginning to be listened to and so there's a shift and it's really interesting it's palpable and I think that that's going to build up to a point man. It is finance of young. People won't be the four million four and a half into went on the streets on September. The twenty first but it might be ten times that number and they will be a force to be reckoned with. They will influence businesses. They will influence civil society. They will influence kroons covenants. What do you think needs to shift in order for people young people? But but you know anybody who feels they have a stake in this Who feels keenly as young people do what you think needs to shift for them to have confidence in the system? That's where we do face the problem. The most people in democratically-elected governments see their responsibilities primary governing opening full the current collection of people who vote for them so that in many countries people who've old in eighteen and and there is a bias to governing on behalf of the cont older older generation because that makes up the majority of the electorates and the shift is necessary will happen when we have a collection of Lee. He does who prepared to take responsibility for governing for coming coming generations and that I think angle happen when the extent of the common crisis just becomes more tangible I attempt folks but the reality the world leaders can come together around a problem. Banat problem is really intense and is threatening that citizens uh-huh for them to come together around a problem. When the problem's impact seems to be far away and I continue? Ymca why. I believe that is because I've seen that shift occur on the communicable disease outbreaks like a bowl of influenza. And I am confident that they will be a point. Where leaders will coalesce coalesce around the crisis? I just hope that it will happen soon. I just want to shift gears a little bit here in the Talk Doc. You gave at the University of wealth. You've mentioned the fact. That food waste is a less talked about contributor to climate crisis And that is that is something that we need to focus on. I'm wondering this move toward a zero waste food system. Is that politically viable. Do you think yes actually think that food waste represents an area where around which an awful lot of people could naturally cover less around thirty percent of all food so ways to coding to the Food and Agriculture Organization that wasted in the fields while they're ways to didn't the it retail space on their bodies didn't people's homes the figure for perishable foods like fruits and vegetables or dairy is higher possibly forty or fifty percent that wasted food in an absolute sense. If it were available for people to heat would be sufficient to feed a country et seven hundred million population at the same time the wasted food decomposes and releases gases in the atmosphere will contribute to global. So there's a real sense. Sounds that a properly addressing food waste would be an area where around which business civil society not government. Young people scientists could care less. I'm why they could actually make a difference. And I'm very stimulated by bottom seeing in some some of the national zero waste initiatives existing. How much agency does the individual have in a transformation like that because you know a lot of times? We'll we'll see these initiatives and then some of the pushback is while these types of things. Don't leave a lot of space for individual decision-making based on what the the individual needs in their own particular context. Do you think that this is a potential problem in this particular discussion when we've looked at options forgetting collective collective action on climate. We being very excited about the potential for working through food because food is something every individual visual has an interest makes decisions and can be affected by what's happening in in terms of what they eat. And how prepared similarly when it comes to food waste individuals to have more agency on that then on seventy other aspects of food so I think working on food is a way of bringing more people into the climate debate. Working on food is why of Lincoln people to nature because food comes from night show and working on food and particularly food waste of speak people something to do and I I am of the opinion that therefore working on food food has more agency for individual in just about any other area in which woodworking ooh there are so many examples around the world trying to create mechanisms that will bring together what happens opens in different government ministries but sometimes people quote intersectoral or intimate steriod collaboration. Most of them a awful failures and the reason is that people come into these councils primarily focusing on their own uh and sexual anxieties so they come straight in and they sit down in a meeting and say from the perspective of Health Canada Bang from the perspective of the people working for the rights of indigenous populations this from the perspective of the farmers that from the perspective of the fissures that from the environmental perspective that as soon as you have an intimate ministerial council where people are fundamentally using it to fight for their own sexual interests. It's a dangerous thing. And the way that can be dealt with is by making sure that there is always interest from the office of the prime minister or an equivalent high level authority in the work of that council and periodically the prime minister or her or his his representative. Now will lucite. I am bringing to you. The wish from the prime minister. Did you focus on the over arching challenge of ensuring food security for all Canadians ensuring environmental sustainability for our country ensuring that farmers have an adequate standard of living. These are the central problems. Put them in the middle. Leave behind your sectoral anxieties and focus on the big issue and periodically Eh that reminder to problem at the center putting a finger on that problem has to be reminded. People have to be reminded of that all the time number A to try very hard when you sit these things up to make certain that they are always reporting regularly both to the Prime Minister's office and to the wider population with massive transparency. So that they actually really are meaningful and not. Just simply churning away in isolation hidden utiel with vast slow moving systems spilled filled with people who have competing interests and to me. It feels like it's not an understatement to say that you wrestle with sort of the ultimate bureaucracy accuracy on a daily basis and you try to wrestle it to the ground and try to get people to come to some kind of consensus. What touchstone moment do you have? That keeps you going going. I want to stress the tool though. I'm active in complex systems with multiple actors and quite major areas of contest. I'm also somebody who's got very excited sounded in the last five years about an approach of leadership which we call living systems leadership and I really started started to explore this way of working around the time that we were involved in the development of the sustainable the violent men to gender. That's two hundred fifteen so my big monument of learning that there there is a different way of working was in that period. Twenty Thirteen to twenty sixteen and this approach of systems leadership says we don't and see our role as trying to harness the energies in a range of different bureaucracies. And trying to scrunch some together get said they work in a unified way instead. We accept that the Connor leadership that way of advancing recognizes that different bureaucracies have different on dentists and the trying to fuse their identities. We will get into trouble. We will get pushback instead. Bobby says we will help them. Work with them to create an additional national identity links to the issue that we're trying to address that they can coalesce around and perhaps leave their organizational organizational identities and logos behind and they can contribute to the additional identity. Being the the actual problem they can do this inside a big tent without feeling that they need to be excessively preoccupied abide about who's senior to whom and they can operate in ways that do not use noble organizational command and control stretches that much more Collections of people working in a looses stroke champ more in the form of a social movement but as a single purpose and a sense of willingness cygnus work in synergy towards that purpose but there are not define organizational structures that can lead to people being disenchanted to actually provoke antagonism. These open structured big tent directional operations that are based around a supplementary identity and that exists because of the relationships between between the individuals inside them rather than any bureaucratic way of working other kind of ways of operating on working at a starting to come naturally to me. Now that I'm a big old And I find them very very satisfying I always ask myself is the work. I'm doing making any difference. Because this way working doesn't have the normal validation Dacian processes that we have inside bureaucracies normal disciplinary working and side. There are questions about him. pact-era era periodically times. When of ten people say well actually doing? And how you're doing and have to try to explain. That don't necessarily believe that there. So there is some diversity and even lost credibility by and large this living systems leadership. Approach I that. I've come across in the napping practicing pretty well. Complete the over last five or six years is might Oy Big Aha moment in the one that I find most exciting and the one that I think has the greatest potential when it comes to thinking about the future when when you survey how far you've come in this effort and then look sort of towards the future and see what's left what's left to do what. What motivates you to keep going? But I'm a stubborn optimist festival. I believe that the human person has the brain to be able to work collectively to find ways to advance. Despite anxiety is that we have about climate or long planetary boundaries and. It's it's sad faith in the human person and by stance. Unconditional love of people ray made that's inside assigned me and that is part of by basic value system inside. It's no choice but to keep working it also builds on a sense that there is not just good in every body but the capacity to lead in everybody and so I'm also open to working with just about anybody. I'm also win. Some people find difficult. I will not be one hundred percent on that most people I find have the potential. And that's what keeps me going. I love finding and working with really amazing people and especially young people not remove got really very open minds about working in the into interdisciplinary and a multi called away and say that's what keeps me going. I want to stop David Nabarro. Thank you so so much for your time. This was lovely. Okay thanks bye-bye you've been listening to an episode of ideas called how to feed the world featuring a lecture and interview with Dr David Nabarro of Imperial College London for more about him and his work. Please visit our website at CBC DOT CA slash ideas. And while you're there you can subscribe subscribe to our podcast and our weekly newsletter. You can also get our podcast on the CBC. Listen Up and don't forget to like us on facebook and follow us on twitter twitter. This episode was produced by a He'd Mustapha. Lisa I use. Oh is the web producer. Fr- ideas technical production. Danielle do Valla. Nikola is senior producer. Executive producer is great. Kelly and I'm Noah for more C._B._C.. PODCASTS GO TO C._B._C.. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.

Food and Agriculture Organizat producer Arrow Food Institute Universit United Nations Dr David Nabarro David Navarro Canada Imperial College London CBC DOT CA Likud
450: Synthetic Food

Spark from CBC Radio

54:09 min | 1 year ago

450: Synthetic Food

"Just because we like to eat as we seek to feed a growing global population new tech offers potential cutting edge solutions from synthesizing products at the molecular level to grow it this is a CBC podcast. Hi I'm Nora Young Mrs Spark where we take a lively interest in the future of food and sustainable ingredients and target specific aromas and use those and bring those together and blend them together just lie coughing so it's a you know and when these are all blended together you get amazing coffee aroma and so we started looking at which aromas are out there can we use off type of cup of coffee there's nothing quite like a Great Cup of coffee is there the full sensory experience rich color aroma taste that sweet sweet caffeine kick if your neighborhood is anything like mine there are coffee shops everywhere timmy's starbucks artisanal cold brew indie shops row stories but what would we do if coffee became combination of a bunch of different compounds that altogether replicate the taste and experience of drinking coffee from beans that's correct for a longer growing period and so what farmers are doing right now is they're moving further uphill to colder temperatures and that is causing hard to come by there's a growing concern that due to factors including climate change conventional coffee production will be under stress in the years ahead local components instead we have to replicate each one of these and so we've started looking at individual like Roma there's not one single compound Andy Clutches Doing when people ask us about a Tomo coffee they say are you creating a fake coughing and would that smells like coffee it's actually hundreds and hundreds of compounds together that are nutting intruding toasty chocolate disolve halfway around the world where your coffee is coming from climate change is really dramatically affecting those farmers' crops are getting too warm it is coughing what's the problem associated with conventional coffee from beans that that this is thirty-four station has a name it's called up farming and the next thirty years it's anticipated that half of the coffee crops latch removed jared co-founder loves to say no it is not a synthetic copy it's not a fake copy out of elector level we are creating coffees so what if you could engineer it at the molecular level in a lab in the very birthplace of coffee culture seattle that's exactly what too quickly that causes coffee too too quickly and when coffee ripens too quickly you miss out on a lot of that Roman flavor that builds up in coffee the machine or what happens there how do you drink your coffee I don't drink coffee but I used to drink coffee when I used to drink coffee either not but what can you tell me about how you actually do this when you pick up your cup of coffee in the morning and you put it in front of your face you get great experience of the Aroma and the body as you're drinking the color the taste in the mouth b-o-l-l and the caffeine and so we really looked at coffee and started breaking down all the it's a naturally derived ingredients reason a lot of up cycled materials if I buy it then what do I get to I get like a package of things that I that I brought in let means that all of us from the drink coffee in the morning we are really contributing tuned further deforestation I'm sure part of this stove top machine that has like little nozzle that comes out the side and then you could manually steam the milk from there that was part of your ritual way it's a ready to drink beverage coffee grounds and we're going to be delivering coffee beans oppressed version of those grounds that you can actually put in the grinder grind and extract as you normally would so their coffee beans but they're not made from coffee beans every morning you would you would have this ritual and we find that it's really important for us to replicate the ritual of coffee and so that means that we're delivering coffee and three hope is that by using our coffee consumers won't be held responsible for further deforestation to grow that coffee you folks that's correct right is there any concern that this is successful that it might actually have a negative impact on currently existing coffee farmers though right so cox farmers based in Seattle which is famous for coffee roasting and coffee culture of course what are the neighbors think worried about how the coffee and that means that coffee farmers are going to start farming other crops whether we're around or not coffee farmers are going to have a challenging future but what we hold are going to have a pretty rough future from what we hear from the industry so like we mentioned you know half the coffee farms are going to have to move in the next thirty years culture in the industry might respond to us in general and we've been really surprised by the warm reception that we've had every your coffee company pretty much has reached out to us and said what is this when can we try it I think traditional coffee companies are feeling world's population while managing the impact of Agriculture on resources and the climate when it comes to food tech we're not just talking about coffee but all kinds of products especially proteins from burgers that are made from plants but mimic hamburgers texture to stem cells grown into flesh. Do you think this idea of synthesizing Leanne from consumers that there is a lot of concern about sustainability about the environment and I think the coffee companies understand that there's a large audience of theirs Tomo- Molecular Coffee I love my coffee so I don't know with lab can ever reproduce the quality of have a good drew but I also that from the molecular level food scientists are building our food brick by brick this is Evan Fraser he's Canada research chairs something in the lab foodstuffs in the lab is more generalized beyond coffee. Yeah there's I'm aware of a lot of different companies a lot of different labs that are are investigating there's beef chicken pork doctors shrimp there's lots of lots of companies exploring sort of the proteins I'm aware of some some companies that are trying to do dairy products with the idea of synthesizing nutrition and doing what sometimes called cellular agricultural you're actually growing cells constitute together to produce foodstuffs global food security at the University of wealth where he's also the director of the Aero Food Institute he researches how we're going to eat in the future specifically how we can feed the that would like to make a purchase decision based on sustainability Andy thanks so much for telling us about it my pleasure and declared she is CEO and Co founder of a I'm cost competitive with Mother Nature I think remains to be seen but I think that if you go outside of say using serums to produce cells it should be calling it meet if it's not from an animal so yes Large amounts of the effort that have gone on so far have been using stem cell technology in but it is nothing like the price of producing a hamburger from a cow for instance and whether it ever that particular technologies cultured meat technology ever really does so in the broad area of cellular agriculture the majority of the focus so far has been on synthetic meat products and the question is I think a lot of people will be familiar with his idea of lab grown or cultured meat. That's basically grown from stem cells is what we're talking about or are there other approaches wasn't a great hamburger but it was perfectly okay hamburger if we think of alternative proteins and new food science technologies as a broader category. I think a tremendous amount of innovation happening in the marketplace right now that's creating a lot of very cool products for consumers to enjoy mine we have been able to or scientists have been able to create a wide range of new consumer products that we've never really had before and so you know the cost-competitive yeah I mean people are probably familiar with these Plant based artificial meat products like beyond me an impossible foods do you see that as part of the same in labs to produce in the most famous one is is the test tube hamburger as so-called so a stem cell based lab grown hamburger that hit the headlines of a couple of years ago still extremely expensive to produce do you think that could ever be a realistic alternative for people's protein needs well a lot of companies and a lot of investors are betting is to do things and maybe you move to alternative proteins more generally which include soy based or plant based or algae-based products then I think you probably do have products that will become Qatar and I'm the CEO of New Harvest Nonprofit Organization funding research in producing animal products without animals. It will certainly that first hamburger that was eating you know weighed in at many hundreds of thousands of dollars I believe the price tag is now down to hundreds of dollars today on spark we're talking about the potential growth of synthetic food products for example synthesizing some of the proteins found in milk from yeast or hamburger grown from stem cell now and came in at a price of something like a half million dollars to to produce this one hamburger yeah I mean that's my understanding that this lab grown quote unquote meat is Quebec Cattle Producers Federation thinks so they filed a complaint with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency earlier this year over Veggie product beyond meat calling itself well meet trend or is that just a techie version of the good old fashioned Veggie Burger. No I'm I'm seeing this as part of the same trend because of very sophisticated food science reasons in the lab and this opens up a whole host of questions for society to to consider but but yeah there's this is this is happening it's happening pace right now. So misleading the Canadian Food Inspection Agency provides guidance to industry through its industry labeling tool simulated meat and poultry products that contain neither meat nor poultry but resemble them a new proteins at the molecular level and live grown meat might radically disrupt the livestock industry within about ten fifteen years what do you think how does speak and pull out its feathers and and remove all these other parts why not start from the basic unit of life which is the sow and grow up from there it's a matter of debate as to whether these foods should even be called meat dairy or coffee for beef to be called beef does it have to have come from a cow. The Colin beyond products are very very close analogues to conventional hamburgers and from the consumer's perspective they taste a lot like a hamburger I had one that I don't I don't think I could tell the difference now so we asked the Canadian Food Inspection Agency if they had a position on naming these foods they wrote back in part the labeling of foods Canada including plant based foods must be truthful opted is this potentially there is a well-documented rise in what might be considered ethical consumerism and for a number of reasons that the food end quote okay but beyond selling plant based proteins a resemble mead or experimenting with lab grown meat just how big a change have nutritional and labeling requirements set in Canadian regulations use of terms such as meat milk and dairy on a label should not mislead with respect to composition so if all we want is a chicken which is a boneless skinless fat trimmed piece of meat why start from the whole chicken only to remove its conventional livestock products over the next generation and I say that as not a vegetarian as someone who loves steak and ice cream but I also think that the industry I'd like to think of it as adding diversity to our idea of what music can be I'm Nora it's nutritious in terms of it some protein and so it has what's called very high digest ability of protein it's got a very complete portfolio of amino acids so you're aware that within Canada we've got some really excellent examples like the national round table for sustainable beef production which is really actively taking the carbon footprint that synthetic agriculture is or will be more environmentally friendly do you think that's the case I think it has the potential to the case the devils really in the details for instance wanting some very significant legal cases to make sure that if it doesn't have a cow or sheep milk in it it should not be the lab my guest is Evan Fraser Canada Research Chair in global food security at the University of wealth now a note on terminology as you heard Evan mentioned and as we'll explore ethical diets has been linked with plant based diets and we can talk about that because there's a lot to unpack there but I think for all of those reasons we're going to see a decline in there's also I guess I call more of a philosophical question of what these foods actually are like his coffee coffee if it doesn't come from beans is meet meet if it's created from a global level it takes a lot of energy and therefore carbon emissions to produce beef and that's true but Canadian beef can be produced at a much we'd be looking at the rethink X. think tank issued a a report recently suggested that a sort of a sad of cutting edge technologies including engineering dairy alter but you're getting better protein you're getting more fibre though out of the plant based Burger but more salt so there's some nutritional trade offs I think that that are going on there called dairy or cheese or yogurt or butter there's a bit of a war of words and oh who owns these words going on in the industry so the benefits of some of these plant based quote unquote meets they they do have a lot of salt and fat in them but in principle could you engineer food so that they're more news you're getting very nutritionally dense product when you eat beef you can't engineer that in a lab but it takes a lot of a lot of processing and a lot of work we end up with things like Almond Silk Not Almond milk and and the industry's kind of in my observation anyway sort of tying itself in not too to avoid the sort of who owns what sort of word but it raises a philosophical question if if you can constitute molecule by molecules personally optimal than what you you might grow raise my friends in nutritional friends in food science describe beef as being amongst the most Burger I I I'm not sure but I do know that some of the recent analysis on some of these alternative protein suggest actually take quite a bit of energy to produce as well Canadian beef so I think there's a there's a tremendous amount of scope within the sector to reduce the environmental footprint will that ever compete with molecular profile of product it should be that product other people would say actually food is more than the whole of some of its parts it's it's food as one part of a larger system right like I mean beef is GonNa take tastes different depending on what it's been fed for example or the end up comparing it really efficient Canadian hamburger with an inefficient veggie burger the answer might not be intuitively obvious some people have questioned the help and there's all sorts of philosophical questions about what food means when we start thinking about doing things in radically different ways or I guess even if you think about the low with a much lower carbon footprint than the global levels are because our producers are quite efficient and we're not clearing forests to produce them to a large extent there on past the thing that under a microscope looks identical to milk but never touched a cow milk some people would say yeah if if it's got all of the same molecular composition of the product and I'm not GonNa take a side on this argument right now other than to say that I'm aware that that words are powerful may be in for a significant period of disruption as as these new products compete from shelf space so can we talk about the environmental aspect I mean the claim seems to be symmetry color texture of skin to create that perfect apple that looks delightful on the school teachers desk stereotype that we've actually I actually sat down and compared to a beef burger with a an impossible burger or beyond my sense is you're getting more fat out of the I do think in general these new products might do to address a the environmental impact of agriculture and be sustainably feeding the world population whatever for specific things and we've lost nutrition taste flavor and culture as a consequence of that your research focuses on global food security so plants what will the meat industry is is very clear in the livestock industry is very clear in his starting across North America that anyways that I'm aware of a plant is going to taste different depending on the soil that has grown in exactly and one of the concerns that that many sort of more food historians or or more people at the change the taste flavors and nutritional impact of some of our products and probably the best known example is the the Macintosh apple that was so bread for Russian food and reducing food waste and that might be shorter paths to get to the outcome of better global food security on the other side of the coin I'm like Oh man most of the days they are produced very very efficiently on in prairies and grasslands and I have a hard time imagining ever for everyone to be fed and we waste a tremendous amount so maybe we can actually do meet the needs of the growing population not by changing production but by simply working on district by which I mean wheat or maize corn rice. Those are the bulk of the world's calories most people's diets penned on those we will always continue to produce the old fashioned way I do I do I have a hard time imagining a lab coming up with something that's cost effective to cereal crops needed a product that isn't very tasty anymore that doesn't last very well the same argument can be made for all all sorts of our our products that we have bread or specialized or engineered I really find myself torn on that very issue on one hand we know at the macro level we need to produce more food to meet the needs of the growing population and we need to do it if we could produce protein with a much smaller environmental footprint and let's imagine beef shifted from something we eat every day to something that we only by the away that's resilient to climate change and reduce agriculture's environmental footprint on the other hand we also know that currently with the exception of fruits and vegetables pretty much enough food and most efficiently produced beef and it's a special occasion meal we eat less meat but it's higher quality we pay more for it and get a protein through low impact lower is to our relationship with the planet it's linked with a specific industry it's linked with a specific process of producing something and those words therefore are meaningful beyond the vodka that's made out of milk byproducts is there a yuck factor here I'm aware that Ethan my lifetime novel Weird Food Products Honoree End of the spectrum have is that one of the disadvantages of industrial agriculture or the way agriculture has gone in the last fifty years is fundamentally entered the market and become mainstream within a small number of years so I think that insects bug's L. G. Test Tube Meat Vodka made forward in terms of You know our diets in terms of food that will not require so many resources but can still feed the world yeah well I mean insects get a lot of finding a viable alternative at least in any timeframe that's meaningful to anyone alive today starches like potatoes they're so efficient tax sources maybe that's a good solution to the global suit system so I'm flip flopping in my own back and forth do you think there are a whole categories of food that just publicity right now because they're they're Yucky the process I think is is fairly straightforward I mean there's a lot of science that has to go behind figuring out how to ways one is to actually use the insects livestock feed and the second is to grind it up into powder and make protein bars or brownies or whatnot was I can't imagine doing that in the lab I think it's the higher value added products and the proteins the specialty ingredients the coffee's the chocolates where there's a big margin think that people will ever be comfortable eating lab-grown meteorology I think there's like a quote unquote cheese that's made out of kind of yeast there's even it's both pushed by shifting consumer demand and pulled by innovations in food science like we're talking about today that are creating new opportunities for alternative so I think there's going to be a left in livestock the emergence of indoor vertical farming and then particular indoor vertical farming that puts horticulture together with aquiculture with and then you'll start seeing as food scientists get excited about things insects appearing more and more hole in the diets in our diets and say ten years down the road oh gosh well I do really think that and I say this with all respect to the extremely exciting things that are happening in the livestock in this raise insects efficiently there is a bunch of consumer related stuff to ask the question aware in the food system will insects fit and right now there seems to be to Maine passed Oh cool what some people call real food movement and there will be a lot of food entrepreneurs that are able to really strongly take advantage of that Evan thanks so much for your insights on her will grow and that technology is just starting to take off there's GonNa be a portion of us a growing proportion who are going to say actually I'm Nora young and this has sparked from CBC radio nobody likes to be interrupted from leftover dairy products I think that the consumers will shift and you know there's adventurous eaters that shift easily there's some very traditional leaders that will and I'm GONNA pay top dollar for it and I'm GonNa know who the farmer is and there's going to be lower rate of return but continued growth in that artisanal by never shift but the population as a whole adapts quite quickly on these things I want to pick on you're saying insects there so can you expand on what's the way digging into a new report that predicts major food industry disruption and hey how about it in the mood for visit with a million crickets I know I am this. It's always great to talk Evan Fraser is Canada Research Chair in global food security at the University of wealth he's also director of the Aero Food Institute they're more on at margin you can produce a lot in a relatively small area those I think are more amenable to technology like this what about the public's attitudes I mean do you think livestock as a part of our diets indeed animals are a vital part of a sustainable rico system in my opinion because they cycle nutrients but I do think there's a long-term downward trend domestication of plants and animals the disruption of the cow and the collapse of industrial livestock farming when we look at technology we look at the convergence of kind of key later in the show we visited an insect farm that brings cool design to crooked farming on a Friday night when I've got my friends over I don't really want that test tube this or the bug that I want an organic artisanal roast call underlying technologies of which we identify to which is biology and information technologies into a week or precision biology Rian my friends that work in that industry I do think that there's a long-term arc towards fewer livestock products in our diet it's not to say that we're going to give up food or nor would I advocate giving in animal protein from stem cells to farming and eating insects but how many innovations will move from pricey experiments in the lab to your plate to start off a think tank that forecast the speed and scale of technology driven disruption their new report is called Rethinking Food and Agriculture Twenty twenty two twenty thirty the second the dinner but the food we eat and how it's produced is about to be disrupted in a big way food is going to become five times cheaper by twenty thirty such that the underway some people that have no trouble adapting to this some people never try it because it's will always drake them's disgusting and the population will shift where else do you think that our our diets will change need for cow completely be obsolete and what have fifty percent fewer cows and twenty thirty Catherine Tubb is a senior research analyst with rethink X. They're an independent non alert level means so that we're as I understand it building the nutrients kind of from the ground up how would that work and I am asking this as someone with high school level chemistry and biology so don't be afraid to the future of food ahead so just brew beer you cannot she grew your food anywhere in car parks of supermarkets eventually probably at home I'm for me she will so if you think about Cao Cao actually has microbes in it and that's what makes the proteins in order for the cow to make the nutrients so what we're doing is kind of not see but not for essentially to make protein to get microbes microorganisms to make protein. Yeah can you describe a little more what producing food of the sort of me plugging those microorganisms and putting them into fermentation tanks just like you might bear you would just put those those microbes and we have to breathe them in a much more just like you have been out just like have by reactors it would just be streams of those at one point in the report you say precision biology this is quote means we can design Russian way with the amount of nutrients you need amount of land the amount water will just reduce because this is just more much more efficient system so that's what it would like these kind of fermentation farms micro organisms to produce any products we want so exactly could you theoretically produce products that we don't currently have that we don't Kern lead yeah claim you could produce anything any proteins either existing or not existing so you could use one of the big things we say is you could produce for example human protein so for example in for more C._B._C. podcasts go to C._B._C. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts supermarkets or eventually probably at home so we're going to move from this kind of Rudy centralized food production system into a very localized system where you just brew locally and are there are you aware of any examples of where this type of food production is is happening already this kind of precision fermentation the main food that it's happening already in is in the impossible burger perfect which one is and then you can build up those foods that you need on a purely personal and like the best nutrient possible for our Diet so you can the car kind of came about because of convergence of technologies and then also just saying how quickly that can happen so once you get something cheaper and she perria then it's automatically about a need it's just the father economics driving something and that's partly because the cow animals in general not quite inefficient if you can do something more efficiently it's going to be Malaysia incident was invented in the human version of incident came into the market in the nineteen seventy s and obviously that was immediately better 'cause you're giving people human insulin as on of cheap and better by the standard so that's what we says order by economics I see so this idea of precision biology is linked to this new model of food production and distribution which a big implication is that instead of necessarily kind of having to have cows and areas and taking lots of land you could actually bring your food anywhere right so you could also in car parks johnny so as he's huge implications really that's what we try to rethink these possibilities that can expand these ripple effects of these implications from one change in technology so for example you could build up the food by taking those key nutrients that you need you're producing precision feminization but perhaps mixing it with other products from plants or even animals we're not necessarily you make it the best it can be and we see this currently going on with some of the US food like the impossible Burger which very famous of the middle going through a big thing at the moment all right every time we cook with making a slightly better improving it and it's just kind of almost taking on extra level but instead of doing our own food we'll be able to have it designed for us the main ingredient is something called him and it's actually a plant based team so they found that basically every living thing has blood which him which is what we think of his blood I guess in that's the thing he's of how to improve it in terms of the taste and texture so it's just the idea of it's going to get better and better and want to get to point where it's better is almost over for the cow the CFO of impossible foods the impossible burger is the only plant based Burger that sizzles when it's raw it's being cooked that gives off the and that's on version two point oh right but that's an invasion two-point os version three point four point five points whereas with a cow or any other animal we've kind of reached the limits of possibly about how technology convergence is going to result in these kind of products and services that ended up being disrupted the one example you always uses kind of the Horse in the car food is software so what is that and how will it change food production so fetus authorized everything about how eat food is just is already software Oy economics going to kind of take over the market and that happened in a really short period it was kind of a twenty year period if not less the car completely horse so what we said this is not moved may better over the last forty years so why do you think we need to to do this what what problem are we trying to solve here we don't really look at it based on problem to solve we just mel the taste and the texture and it's because it has the very same molecule in it sourced from a plan that is found in a burger from account nice to cow or pig insulin she came about because there's a huge shortage people worried but the weren't enough cows and pigs to provide the amount of CNN and it's really just that technology kind of in heats you'd have no idea because it is the same not talking about any fake meters it's the same product so you see these kind of new startups popping up what and you see a difference in food distribution as a result of this yeah exactly so one of the things is we try and kind of this kind of the ripple effects of these technologies it gives the taste the MSCI bug on that she makes us using precision foundations they programmed micro to make this team why name's David Lee I'm the chief operating officer and they want to do more protein selling but then using other companies making milk proteins they're gonNA make into Mozzarella cheese and I've tasted that and it tastes exactly An- that's the key to meet tasing me it's called him part of the reason we've identified this technology is where this kind of cusp of it becoming competitive for food so what we've seen nice to business ingredient lead disruption not really driven by the consumer driven by businesses and once they start buying these products it's just gonNa have such massive economic impacts for current farmers you're listening to spark that essentially they're gonna be go out of business you mean for example when you're talking but this business to business thing that you know if I'm frozen pizza maker or whatever I'm going to be during the synthesized Mozzarella cheese because it's cheaper than buying it from a cow is that what you're getting yeah exactly but also you think about how much dairy ends up as ingredients the idea of animal farming becoming obsolete may be hard to accept but as Katherine points out rethink ex just looks at possibilities and these predictions the impact is going to be on conventional animal farming is just going to become obsolete and a couple of reasons for that as well because once it's cheaper an animal farming is on such is it come down in cost over the last few decades and what we're seeing now is it's kind of getting to that food points they we're starting to see other companies pop-up so perfect day of making milk proteins for example or a young and I'm speaking with Catherine Tubb she's a senior research analyst with rethink ex and she's the author of their new report Rethinking Food and Agriculture Twenty twenty two twenty thirty the financial precipice that is extremely vulnerable to these kind of small changes in economics and if you can start coming in with food to the same and especially as this is we see this as a things that you add for functionality or protein drinks protein powders more niche market but it's those kind of protein that could be disrupted really quickly and so is a big market I know in Canada for Canadian dairy products how much ends up as ingredients and baked goods does he say kind of like cheese on a pizza but also kind of think about the way protein really driven by the consumer but by business agriculture's already evolved dramatically due to technological change and we've looked at many of those changes and they obviously much more sensitive in terms of any kind of supply and cost but also like things like the economic volatility of these prices E. C. A. Lot oven particularly animal farming on spark obviously there are lots of people who believe that farming can continue to evolve to meet our needs in the future a recent report released by rb see here in Canada is called farmer four points mule cows or other animals so we see it more as like getting rid of industrial farming that's purely about the meat but do you think consumers are ready to accept products like you know cell based his no way Yes exactly I think what we think of as Moore's farming these big industrial the adoption of the food however what we say is consumer preferences always change so it's not a constant in times of how they they see these products so example if you had someone like Nestle changing using these proteins in that baby formulas or you know of course all their products it would just have a massive impact on a worldwide oh it points out that CO technology innovation already play a central role in Canadian agriculture an increasingly educated workforce possesses many of the skills that will serve the because they don't want to necessarily give up animal products of which I am one but but you know it gives you a social license essentially to switch over to these Mike the report outlines that many of these disruptions are already underway and they're gonna hit sort of tipping points within five years so what do you see these tipping points I think really the main tip eight for example or food that doesn't actually come directly from animals I mean if you think about the resistance to genetically modified food in the EU for instance this could be a this could be a break on the choices about what we're GONNA do with at Lund so you know there are various choices you can make if we started an aggressive kind of reforesting policy to offset greenhouse gases or it at a reasonable cost but there are also these you know challenge has to adoption because we're going to need a whole new food infrastructure to support this why do you think this will happen so quickly there's still going to be an auto cows but we think there's going to be more of a market for the really cutting Nisha sustainable farming areas where you're really wanting to have specific attributes point when the cost comes down to cost power t of proteins and we see that as about ten dollars per kilo of proteins estimate it's now just about an order of magnitude higher the discusses the land the amount of land also things like water use could also go down significantly I think socially just you know I it depends on how you feel about animals it's on this thank you Nora Catherine Tubb is a senior research analyst with rethink acts and the CO author of the New Report Rethinking Food and agriculture twenty twenty two twenty after products so how do you see all this affecting land use it's going to be huge implications for lunch because essentially we calculate like huge swathes of the US is going to be freed we got we really maximize the benefits of this technology in to really mitigate the downsides which will be the loss of traditional agriculture industry what do you think would be the biggest benefits of this whole shift that you're describing in the report environmentally it's huge benefits I mean as we mentioned report we believe if we made the right choices we could offset green they won't be that once it is cheaper better or cheaper superior they will probably pick over other ways so it's almost giving social license to people that perhaps a bit unsure this is sport this listening to spark sparks smark you're listening to Afam cal farms are the ones that can be obsolete we still we say fifty percent fewer cows fifty percents of cows in the world which is I think five hundred million eighty mark CBC radio a couple of escapees aliens of insects he's also an architect and he's interested in how urban farming along with consuming crickets as a source of protein could go a long way to addressing sustainability runs third millennium farming and farm is a unit in an industrial complex just north of Pearson International Airport on the outskirts of Toronto besides spending his days among during the future in court I asked Catherine if the current agricultural sector could still exist alongside the changes she's describing maybe even more best per core Global Agriculture Jacob invited me out to his farm to see the operation and talk about the future of food especially in urban spaces so let's go back to the beginning Oh fire that's obviously a positive as well and then also I think nutrition we're going to have access to much better foods I and probably a lot more personalization feeds Kathryn thanks so much for up so this is obviously a big decision also we want to convert people to this report the idea this if there's going to be this amount of lamb freed up policy makers and businesses have to stop making how did you really come up with the idea for this so I was thinking of doing the masters of Architecture at U. OF T. and we had an assignment to figure out how to form a lot of food you know other uses using solar panels or anything else ready this is what we're looking for people for I did was why we're trying to bring it to people's attention sale at this link be freed up to what could we do with it what choices host a nut to do is get when it comes down it's going to be with scale up so when you start hearing about these proteins coming out in bulk being bought by bigger companies being as you might have guessed by now he's a cricket farm at smells a bit like crickets Huxley Yeah and so we produce about a million crickets a month in here firstly finicky so for people that are starting it's tough to get going it's actually real reasonably simple to learn how to farm them like if you do a crash course for two months in farming crickets you could what happened with the cost on the car right there was absolutely no infrastructure for the call in the early nineteen hundreds you didn't have gas stations didn't have highways to certain degree pave didn't have weeks to get a full cycle of crickets at thirty five we do it in four weeks maybe even three and a half so somewhere between there so it kind of makes the whole business model and much more robust Jacob we took the most complicated tasks out of their hand so for instance reproducing the crooked eggs is really complicated and so we do that for them we shift the eggs in small package every week and it's not weeks and they get a harvest and so they within their to bakers no experience in farming and within the first month they're farming it about seventy five percent of the capacity of the unit so it's really small piece of land and so I think people we all try different things like a vineyard but didn't make too many bottles of wine my friend when I best friends did the chicken farm with it and then I mean just my professors were really nice about it so eventually they kind of came around and help me with it and they let me do my thesis on it and I kind of kept going from there so this could be okay at farming crickets in two months but from them really well at alert scale it actually takes quite a bit of skill and so what we're doing with them some of the tech that we developed we build this thing called a Chirp it really is kind of a turnkey system that anyone can do if you set it up properly yes so the idea here with third millennium farms it's not just you're here to make workout try it maybe it's kind of like the between having a mainframe computer and personal computers so if you want to get the best bang for your buck in terms of like computing power you'd probably want to have a mainframe and we princeton's we started shipping to a bakery and Edmonton we shipped in one box and we uploaded some royal videos for them a pretty cost effective and they place the eggs in the cricket habitat we've developed the X. pop day portion of the crickets in to wherever they're supposed to go and they don't touch it for about three or four Sir this farm and Dakota farm sure you do this farm is in Mississauga it's a kind of a model farm so what sorts of things do you need to consider an order and stuff like that and feeding that to insects and then I just thought what the heck feed the insects to the people and so the numbers on it were really impressive like we feed I can't remember who was hundreds or thousands of people but on that that's a cargo container cricket farm and we kind of call it a turnkey system so it really is like a separate building you can just drop it in your backyard or wherever plug it into power and water and that's it you got like sixty or seventy chickens a year and then I kind of took me a long time so pretty late in the game I can't with an idea of taking city wastes and using it to grow algae and fungi `puter and when mainframe computers were dominating everyone's like why would anyone ever want a personal computer you know what's the what's the point it's not feasible in terms of the way you spend your money or anything else it's more of a pre not right on this gets kind of offensive you don't WanNa go in no worries okay this is Jacob Zombie actually farm cricket successfully just stick them in a box and walk away right you could probably not gonna form them very well they might survive in a box for a while and then Kinda die on their their each foot wide by twenty feet long about one hundred and sixty square feet and then we do one that's twice the size and now we're starting to look at some they're even bigger and why one piece of land with the food produced piece of land and so I kinda ran with it it wasn't did didn't go very well in the first year I got a really bad mark on it but I stuck crickets to sell it's it's sort of you're trying to develop this as a business model for other people right can you explain that yeah I mean I think an analogy I wonder if it's GonNa the Industry at Bristol just getting the cricket farming other bug firming perfected but ultimately I'm I'm betting everything on the fact that he will use organic urban wastes you mean like compost we mean ages of your PhD in architecture. How does this project connect with your thinking about architecture it's something my parents really want me to answer and they weren't they use so we gotta run them at their highest temperature weekend so most firms of random bit cooler but we can in order for this insect farming thing to make sense we really have to use urban organic wastes on that's really where the main environmental savings are and so that really hasn't developed for form of a couple of thousand square feet so how how big is this Chirp box could I use it in my house like in a punk in your backyard it's we do one that's twenty feet so it's the vote to thirty-five if we go to Celsius so over that they'll start dying like fast but at higher temperatures they grow faster so if we went to thirty you would probably take us about five and a half might be something like compost like yard waste and stuff like that you can't really feed that to crickets but you can feed it to like a micro former like a mushroom firm and you can still get connects and yeah it all happened very quickly so it can happen quickly if the right incentives to put in place in the Guinness we want to let people to this and say look this is underway a million crooked bigger room this is a sixteen foot by forty foot okay so I don't know plus the six hundred square feet it's them yet I think I mean my long-term vision and hope and this is kind of where I just let myself be a bit of a dreamer and I'm not too worried about the business consequences of it urban waste nodes and a whole bunch of little farms you know sitting on top of a mom and pop restaurant or an extra microbrewery in the city manufacturing brady coming onto the market I think that's when we're going to start seeing that tipping point so we estimate twenty the mid twenty two thousand nine hundred when that happens the technology to do this and to do it have complicated organic wastes and the thing with her Ganic waste infrastructure is the function not in an economy skill but kind of at a diseconomies of scale so the bigger you want Ramsey can sell those and then you can take the parts of the mushrooms that's high enough in protein for crickets to eat seen sort of upcycle it and it goes all the way down to like using algae for Blackwater in gray water and all kinds reason for the reason that it's easier to organic wastes where they're produced before they mix into one kind of stream because of toxicity and regulation issues I'm convinced dogs and so the plan wants to bloom quickly before I thinks it's going to die and so it actually to bloom stimulants so you get thirty percent fifty percent sixty percent more yield in response directly in the plant sometimes it's probably the bacteria that eats the eggs. Elton stimulates the response in the plant so like for instance if they some victories channel approach or personalize -able or a customizable approach to farming where you we can function at a number of scales small having something in your backyard to as big as having a agriculture is not applicable to things besides insects potentially I think yeah I think there's a whole bunch of different types of farming that are kind of following this pathway kind of getting it's GonNa be easier to have a whole bunch of small farming methods sprinkled around cities they can use these organic waste where they're produced then it will be to have one giant pipeline feeding some huge we're system to be every extra kilometer of a system line is more expensive than the kilometer before it because you've got to beef up the infrastructure all the way downstream and so for that crickets are eaten by most people in North America will probably be easier around the rest of the world already is actually so you're also in the latter state radim and it's like Exoskeleton and pieces rate that right yeah the feces ends up probably being more despiser which is still helpful but it's the Exoskeleton it's sometimes it's like it's organic pesticide to natural food is anything starbucks got in trouble of here's back for having an insect based red food dye and now they're probably gonNA switch back to it because it's organic with our technologies we hope from there we can maybe expand to include other insects as well and then from there the idea is to start doing this vertical integration where maybe mm somewhere and so that's kind of where I think the architecture thing comes in these firms start plugging into buildings and urban environments and it it's GonNa be in my opinion a whole bunch of different sizes it might be some mega-farms booster really simple form of waste and we already do that to some extent but let's

Canadian Food Inspection Agenc Evan Fraser University of wealth Tomo- Molecular Coffee Aero Food Institute Nora Young North America Mrs Spark starbucks Leanne Rudy Colin
#50 EMOTIONS with researcher & educator Tatiana Astray  podcast

Talk About Talk

51:01 min | 8 months ago

#50 EMOTIONS with researcher & educator Tatiana Astray podcast

"Let's do this. Let's talk about well. Hello there I'm your communication coach Dr Andrea Wojnowski. Please call me Andrea. Thanks for listening. Talk about talk where you can learn to communicate more effectively so you can advance your career and improve your relationships with everyone around you. We're releasing podcast biweekly. Every second week an email blogs every week if you go to talk about talk dot com you can see the full archive of all the communication skills topics that we've covered in the podcast and the email blogs today's episodes focused on emotions as in positive emotions negative emotions their effects on us in tra- personally and inter personally how emotions affect our relationships and in different contexts. Like at work at home in formal negotiations and in everyday interactions. We're GONNA up our emotional intelligence and we're very fortunate to have tetiana astray with us for this episode. She conducts research and teaches all about emotions. And introduce you to her in just a moment in this episode. You'RE GONNA learn a lot. I promise including what emotions are and how they differ from feelings specific positive and negative emotions and five specific tactics. That can help you improve your communication effectiveness right now through emotional expression. Are you ready all right? A few of you've mentioned to me that you really appreciate the summaries that I've been providing at the end so here's how this episode will unfold. I'm going to introduce touchy on it. And then we'll get right into the interview after the interview. I'm going to pull out the key learnings and summarize everything for you so good news for you once again. You don't have to take notes not at all. Just sit back and listen or maybe you're going for a walk or doing some housework. Whatever you're doing just enjoy as always this. Summer is easily available to you later on the talk about. Talk Dot Com website. Okay let me introduce touchy on it to you now. And then we'll get right into the interview Tatiana Astray has a BS in psychology and MSC in marketing and consumer studies and she's currently a doctoral candidate in organization studies at York University at the shoe at School of business. She's lectured at the University of wealth. Ryerson the Ivey school and Shula. Her current research focuses on generating insights and strategies that professionals can use to improve their working relationships and enhance their negotiation outcomes so she focuses on things like professional relationships trust interpersonal emotions and body. Language as you'll hear touch on his passionate about translating and applying this academic research for business people and she creates negotiation workshops and consults to firms in her spare time. Tathiana sits on the board of start refugee talent and she volunteers with NGOs that specialize in the economic empowerment of underserved communities impressive. Right well just listen to what she has to say about emotions. Thank you so much for joining us here today to talk about emotions. Well it's a pleasure to be here. I'm really excited. I thought the best place to start would be with definitions. Can you share with me in the listeners? What is the definition of an emotion? Actually love to start a class asking people to reflect on what they think. Emotions mean most of the time people complete feelings with emotions but they're actually very specific things so emotions are physiological reaction. It is an action Tennessee. And it has a subjective. Experience is usually high intensity short in duration. And it's always directed towards an object person or an act now. This is important because this means it's prepping the body for something and there is no such thing as you're just having emotions out of nowhere. They're always related to something so anytime you're feeling something that you don't why that's usually a good time to pause and figure out like what is triggering. That's that's a sign for. You know the word that came to mind when you were describing that is trigger rape triggered this emotion or exactly you get triggered absolutely absolutely that is an emotion versus versus. Some people will have all just a feeling their their subjective experiences but this definition is important because it shows us that it's a body component trying to prepare your body for a specific actions for example anger is about and so if you allow yourself to express anger. That's hugh learning to put up a wall where you need to write. If you suppress the anger in that moment you basically violate your boundary and you allow people to continue doing the things that you don't want and I will say to other important. Distinctions with emotions is that there's intra personal effects so how the way I feel impacts what I'm doing. The acting an interpersonal effects which is the way that my emotions are expressed the way it impacts US specifically and at that level emotions. Become this like body dance where they help people to coordinate behavior and they help to maintain and deepen relationships and that that's really my area of expertise. So would you say that? The intra personal feeling is still part of the emotion just before it gets expressed absolutely okay. Absolutely so if you think about it in stages when you're feeling emotion that's giving you a little bit of information of what's happening inside of you. It's telling you a piece of information about the person in front of you and then the way you express it you know you can either express it in a way. That kind of helps the relationship or hinders the relationship. And that's really where like when people say emotional intelligence that's really what they're talking about your ability to effectively express what you're feeling in a way that benefits the relationship in the situation. I love that. I think you're GONNA get quoted on that one because I'm a visual learner. I'm imagining as you're describing this and defining this that there's almost like a decision tree or at least a flow chart whether is as you said some sort of trigger. It could be a person or thing or an event whatever it is right and then an interpretation by the person. Is there something like that that you can share that has stages first of all our attention picks things up so depending on how? We're feeling what we're focused on. It's going to pick up specific cues. Then someone will say something and if you're in a good mood you actually interpreted it in slightly more positive way then you give it a cognitive meaning. The meaning is all you care about me. You're having a good time doing great and then there's your response which might be the smile right now. Let's say you're in a bad mood then I see your smile. I'm not sure what that means. My cognitive meaning might be like. Aw She's faking it. She's not really being genuine. And then my response might be that suppression and not like suspicion. So it's a multi-stage process at super complex because it's related to what you're feeling what you're expressing which we never actually know in my research. I have found that. The correlation between what you think you're expressing your actually expressing not not significant zero correlation. But the way I co- Jew expressing back to me is really what's going to define how I respond to you when you break these things down and when you understand what you should be expressing it allows you to actually signal the things that you need to to make sure that you understand what the person is responding to to give. The actual body cues deepen relationships and bring them to get some of that. Be IMPLICIT PROBABLY MORE LIKELY IMPLICIT. But it could also be explicit right. Yeah it's it's a very complicated dance of both. It's a very complicated dance at both. Say you were talking about how the part that is. Statistically valid is when you're interpreting what the other person is absolutely absolutely so for example in the data. It's basically the way I code. Your behavior is what predicts what I'm taking out of the situation and whether or not enjoying it whether or not I'm GonNa give you something in negotiation. Do I want to continue working with you? So if you think about the implications of that it's people are responding to the way you're acting the way you are physically acting not the way you think you're acting right so certainly not what you're thinking. Never wait you're thinking it's what you're expressing absolutely and so when that light bulb goes off then you realize like you have to become very aware of what you're doing because your intentions mean deadly squat in your interactions with people. It's what you're actually expressing that matters. Can you tell us a little bit about Your Dissertation Research? And maybe some other research papers that you're working on so mine entire research agenda would summarize winstons which means I it pays to be pro social so I just wanted to create his to be pro social. Yes so I want to create the research that shows that being a nice kind cooperative trustworthy person gets you more in. Your Work Interactions. That that's the core everything I want to do. Is that based on a hypothesis? Based on research that you've done so it's actually based on things I've read things I've seen my basic ideas to combat this idea that we have to be selfish to win in the corporate ladder. I don't think that's very helpful. Because selfish people end up being taken down by others. People DON'T TRUST THEM. They don't want to work with them. And so there's this discrepancy between what we're told that works in society and what actually does we're social creatures and so if you know how to play with others you're going to succeed in the workplace. My dissertation specifically looks at what is an effective productive working relationship and how impacts negotiation behaviors negotiation outcomes to really correlate that at the individual and interpersonal level. And then some other research I have Looks at the role of collective emotional expressions and how that impacts negotiation behavior is negotiation outcomes and again that desire to work together again. So let's get into that go. She is your research showing that negative emotions are bad or have a bad outcome in negotiations so in any interaction you're going to have a multitude of emotional expressions. You'RE GONNA have anger happiness a little bit of validation enthusiasm. You might have a bit of sadness and it's not about expressing any one specific negative emotion. It's about the overall emotional tone of the interaction. Okay how it's going back and forth and can you limit particularly negative emotional expressions so in a negotiation context. My research shows that that maybe are you engaging in threats are you whining. Are you actually showing fear and Have you mapped some of these behaviors to? It wouldn't be too what people think they're expressing. Its to what people are interpreting. Absolutely so I get people to do negotiation simulations with people. They don't know I asked them to tell me the queues of what is happening in the interaction. I don't tell them the emotional label because a lot of the time people don't really know what Inger or contempt looks like. I just give them the queues and then I also capture a bunch of outcome variables. Like where are you satisfied with the interaction? Do you want to have a relationship with a person? What were your deal outcomes? And then I basically map emotional expressions at the diabetic level to what what actually happened in the Diet and does that die. I'd want to continue working together. Then I can tell you. Some preliminary findings emotional. Expressions are highly predictive of people's desire to work together. Well that's a good thing right. Yeah no it is and it's very exciting because I got to show from a research perspective that one. You don't need to hide your emotional expressions. That actually hinders people's desire to work with you and I show people the actual specific to make people want to work with again. So what do you think the number one emotional expression is to make people wanNA work with again number? One small enthusiasm. I thought you meant the behavior. Yeah but actually so a smile is part of that but enthusiasm is a little bit more than just a smile. It's literally saying I am so excited to be here and work with you and to really light yourself express that emotion can make such a huge difference for people. I have to say. I'm so happy to hear that because people have described museum enthusiastic. You know what's funny since learning this? I've learned to be more enthusiastic especially when I meet people and use that word in my email so one of the first things I'll do is. I'm so excited to hear from you. That's a great sign pack for the listeners. Yes so if you want someone to interpret it right it exactly exactly so one of the things that I've found is that because it's so devoid of emotional information. People don't really know where they stand with you but the problem is in the absence of information because we have a negativity bias. People aren't going to interpret. That is you're not being interested so it's exceptionally important to put those really few emotional positive cues just to make a person feel safe in the interaction to know that you are engaged in you do want interact with this person okay. So there's so many things to unpack wrote like four things down wonderful. So we have a negativity bias. Yes and would you say or is there research that shows that maybe that's why enthusiasm is so important because it's conquering that negativity bias? So part of it comes from an evolutionary standpoint. So when you meet someone you you have no idea if they're friend or foe right so you're I get it so you have your defenses up. That's exactly exactly right because it's much better to be safe than source because it's better to survive than die. It's evolutionary built in all of us. Now there are some people that are naturally just predisposed to be a little bit more trusting a little bit more expressive and there is a lot of people that are kind of resistant. I'M GOING TO CALL THEM MATTERS. So they kind of wait to see the first emotional cue from someone now depending on what kind of person you are if you don't realize that people are being a little hesitant people are going to read that hesitation as you're not a trustworthy person so that. I Q just to be enthusiastic. Basically shows like hi. I'm here I'm a friend and I'm excited to be with you. I promise he wants to start. Kind of using this key are gonNA realize people opened a lot quicker. So it's almost like there's nothing to lose by communicating enthusiasm and furthermore. It accelerates the relationship or at least your understanding of the other person absolutely okay so then the other thing I wanted to ask you. What do you think emojis? I think they're great in the sense that they can add a little bit of a friendly tone. I don't necessarily think they're professional so with your work colleagues if you have a more personal relationship Scher if you do not know the person. I don't advise that I've read research to suggest it. If feels unprofessional. Yeah I think it depends on the age to I've read. I've read a little bit of research on that too and there's different cohorts. Generations of people will interpret different punctuation. Never mind absolutely emojis. That's interesting yeah. My rule is I wouldn't be putting emojis in emails where you know for example giving a proposal to training program at a company but if it's a little bit of a closer relationship especially. I'm concerned that something might be misinterpreted. Yeah I would put the EMOJI and yeah I agree another good place to put it as when someone sends it to you. You need to match to let them know that it's safe in this relationship to express that so anytime someone sends me a smiley face all. Send them a nice message back with that. Smiley faces. Well just to say we are on the same page and like you don't have to worry. Misinterpreted mirroring the style of communities. Yes that's very important. There's lots of research to suggest that mirroring is one way that we feel safe in relationships so you started to answer this question previously but I just want to ask you specifically Ken expressing emotions even the negative ones signal that we feel open and comfortable with someone yes okay. Three other social functions of emotional expression at the interpersonal level is too no intentions. It's to evoke complementary behaviors and reinforce behaviors. Okay in a relationship. These things are very important now when we think about anger is basically saying look. I have a boundary. It's quote unquote a negative emotion. But it actually a very important relationship is you're teaching someone your limits and you're teaching them to treat you nicely. If you express that in a direct assertive way and the person response you actually strengthen the relationship because now they know you better now. You've reinforce that behavior even sadness. For example we have sadness to elicit someone to take care of US expressing sadness as great. Especially if it's met by caretaking so these negative emotions are great and relationships. They strengthen our bonds but there's a whole class of other emotional expressions such as threats or engaging in criticism or defensiveness or stonewalling and all of those are very detrimental so thinking of a negotiations context. What are the emotions that are critical? Either positive or negative from in terms of their effect on negotiation comes. It's actually let me go back to this idea of sadness. One way sadnesses bad two-way sadnesses. Great basically saying I'm so sorry can't make this deal but I wanNA work with you. Preserve that negotiation. It's matched back right. So it's both people saying. I'm sorry this time doesn't work again. It's that dense. It's not a one-way expression it is the dance at the interpersonal level. Threats are very bad negotiation. So anytime you say something like if you do this. I'm walking away. Then statements exactly if then very bad anytime you are defensive and innovation if someone tells you what their needs are and you basically say yeah. Well I have these other needs and you don't speak to their concern very bad again whining and fear. So what is the emotion? That whining is is communicating? Think it's almost like trying to elicit manipulation from someone right because it's like why don't you give me something you're right it is. It's almost like inducing guilt and someone like why don't you give me more? This is so unfair. It's not it's not a way to have a sort of conversation. Like a proper with clear. Channel's yeah so to all the listeners out there who tell their kids not to wine you can tell them that. There's research that demonstrators not effective in negotiations. Yeah yeah absolutely but let me also speak to the positive emotions because negative emotions will decrease. Someone's desire to work with you and give you concessions. But the doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to make people wanna work with you again for that. You need positive emotions. So what does that look like again? Number one enthusiasm which is quite preaching it now. Enthusiasm is very important another one. That's very important is validation so basically showing that you understand someone's perspective even if you don't agree with it right and I think that makes people feel better because it doesn't mean you have to completely give into a person's demand but it but it has to be something like hey understand why you want that position. I would want that too. Unfortunately these are my limits. I feel like I've heard and read that consistently with a lot of the stuff right. Demonstrating you've heard something. You understand it. And you're validating it but you're not saying you agree with absolutely another very important. One is expressing interest. So what that means is allowing your body to lean in nod golden and also asking more questions and paraphrasing. What the person said so? All of that basically says that you are listening to the person and you're interested in finding out more accents. It sounds so obvious but for some reason in our culture. We don't talk about that. And the last. I WanNa Kinda give commonality. Lady with this idea of the positivity ratio so whenever you're interacting with someone you want always check for the overall tone. It's fine to express a bit of sadness and anger that that can't be the only emotion you're expressing so in my research. What it looks like is that it's best to express about three positive emotions to one negative in a negotiation context or minimize the negative as much as you can. That's a great tool just to sit there and okay. What is the general tone? Did I acknowledged that this person listened to validate them? I showed them. I'm interested. And if so then yeah then express a bit of sadness and express a bit of anger like that's completely fine so keep it real but keep it positive. Yes that's a really great quote keep it real and keep it positive. I'm going to be using good. We're going to be voting. I love it. Yeah so so. Can you share an example? Maybe that you've used to illustrate this when you're doing corporate training or maybe maybe even in one of your academic papers where this might be relevant to a personal context. Okay wonderful one of the ways. I actually start this is did you know we could predict divorce at the ninety four percent accuracy. Basically there's this great researcher called John Goldman and back in the seventies. He used to put couples in this hotel room and videotape them having everyday discussions and conflict discussions and what. He found his by coating the emotional. Expressions of those interactions could predict short-term and long-term divorce with a ninety four percent accuracy basically. So let me tell you the tip to know whether or not you should be scared you now. There's a curve linear relationship and it's Matt in specific point so the relationships that stay together have five positive to negative emotional expression. Okay were you. Were talking about three to one. He's saying he's saying fight. Five to one in personal relationships with the absence of criticism defensiveness contempt and stonewalling so those are very particular negative ones that will result in divorce now too much positive and no negative predicts long-term divorce because you're not discussing the things that matter right and too much negative emotions actually predicts early divorce because of course he wants to be in an interaction. That's unpleasant with actually very interesting. As this concept of the positivity ratio has also been used to look at executive teams and how they perform during strategic planning. So what they did was. They got exempts to talk about a strategic annual plan in the divided the teams based on their performance how profitable they were customer satisfaction and three hundred sixty degree performance and coated what was said based on praise to criticism. And so what's cool again? We find the high performing teams had a five point. Six positive one negative verbal expression and the lowest performing teams had almost like a one to one ratio so again consistently what the research is starting to say is that you have to express positive emotions and it has to be in this context where the negative ones have to be present but the positive ones have to wait. Yeah that's that's a great tip. I guess it's a great goal. It is a great goal. And what's wonderful is if you know this number honestly anytime you're on the phone with someone. Have a little tally card. And just literally count. How many positive emotions have expressed I train my students to do it. I haven't personally done it only because I've gotten used to like being very positive you're telling the brain anyway. I am I am. I always start off every interaction. I have to throw in those positive emotions just so it can buffer everything. Well that's another tip start out with the enthusiasm but then out a few more to buffer the positive interpretation because the is you know in relationships people are willing to have those difficult discussions. They're willing to hear you out there willing to hold a container for you being frustrated and positive if they know you care about them Those enthusiastic upfront. Basically say hey. I'm here and I wanted to track and let's let's engage. Let's problem solve. Let's creative right so I want to ask you this question. Which is when I'm feeling negative emotions. So in trump. Personally I am feeling angry. Or I'm feeling rage or feeling jealousy or in a negotiation context. Maybe I'm feeling threatened and I want to not communicate that emotion. Do you have any tips for how to regulate that emotion? Okay one of the things I want to say is you should never suppress your emotions. Which means if you feel bad. You're going to try ignoring that. You feel bad and push it down and try to tell yourself. I don't feel bad. I feel bad. That's not going to help. Actually what's going to happen is your blood. Pressure's GONNA go up. Your heart rate's GonNa go up. It's exceptionally unhealthy from a physiological perspective. Eventually it's bad for subjective. Well being there. They're huge studies to say that. Suppressing emotions is very bad from physiological. What we hear yet right in our culture is don't keep it all bottled up. Yes but I'm talking about tactically in a specific situation where you know. It's an intense negotiation. Let's just say for the sake of illustration and I can't let the person know that I feel so threatened and I would say there are certain situations where you wouldn't want that to happen especially when someone has more power over you exactly research shows if you express anger even if you just lea- should feel angry. That person will hold it against you and punish you in some way later so you don't WanNa do that. You feel bad. This is a reality. This is a strong physiological. Reaction Calling your body to do something but you can't express it in that moment. What do you do? You go to the bathroom. This is actually what I suggest or asked to take a formal break or say you need a bit of a break and you'll come back to it in the morning. You have to give your body time to wash that out okay. So generally the hormones related to inger have a half life of rounds out to about thirteen minutes so based. I thought you were going to say a lot longer than oh no. It's much shorter. So for example if you ever in a business situation or a personal situation and it's way too intense take a twenty minute break and come back to the conversation. If you're managing someone let's say a performance review and they're getting excessively frazzled. Save you have to take a call and give them twenty minutes and come back to it? Some of the other things you can do is engaging breathing techniques that activator para sympathetic nerve. That comes your body down and it tells you that you're in a safe space so there's a few breathing techniques that I always recommend The first box breathing which is so four seconds in you hold for four seconds. You exhale for four seconds and you hold it for four seconds and you repeat that for about a few minutes. That's something that the navy seals do in their own training. You can also engage in deep belly breathing which is basically putting your arm on your stomach and your chest and making sure you're breathing from your abdomen and not your chest so shallow breathing through your chest right and deep breathing through belly exactly. So as you're giving your body those cues that's what allows you to kind of bring yourself down another quick thing. I will say which is really fun from an evolutionary perspective. When you are angry you do not think rationally. There's Polyglot Bagel theory when a person stressed and angry. There's something in the years that modulate too low tone frequencies because what they're looking for his predators literally when you're very upset you can't hear what the person in front of you is saying because your body is in a state of stress which. I think is phenomenal. It also the nominal to know. It's phenomenal but it's amazing because it basically means the moment you're in that space you're not having a rational conversation so you have to take yourself out. Another thing I will say is if you are triggered and it doesn't seem to equate to the external stimulus of for example. If someone says something and you take it way more personally than you should which happens even in a negotiation because you might think like. Oh that person's trying to take advantage of me or you get really angry about something. There is a good chance that you have some unresolved trauma that you need to work through the reason you mean something unrelated completely unrelated right. Actually in my teaching I see that a locked. Interestingly enough right so people come in. And they're very upset about a situation or they feel like they can't trust or someone took advantage of them. But if you break down what's happening it's unresolved trauma and that moment is GonNa keep triggering them until they sit down. They process it in the figure out. What's happening okay? I keep thinking of in psychology attribution theory into. What are we attributing people's behavior and and it could we can now take that idea and say to. What am I attributed my feelings? And if it's out of proportion there's got to be something else going on yes and a lot of the time we take for granted what we're observing so we're making a lot of attributions and I know one attribution bias is that we understand the context and complexity of our lives. Of course we would never do anything bad but to other people we see them have one bad day and we go. That's a bad person. Right dare short tempered. They're impatient no. Maybe they missed lunch. Maybe they just had a fight with their spouse right so understanding that difference means giving people a break not taking things so personally if you cannot do that if you get so triggered when someone says something it means it's you. It's not them right. It's you so you have to learn to navigate your internal world so you can show and relationships in an assertive and direct manner and one kind of hip in this area will say is. You're getting overwhelmed most likely because you don't have tools and scripts to deal with difficult situations so the moment anything comes up or you're being challenged you freak out you freeze and again that threatening responses what shuts you down because you're feeling helpless exactly an alternative really. Don't have a plan. Yeah if that's happening. What that means is you should start reading books about communication and relationships and Hallelujah exactly learn some scripts about how to articulate your needs in a not a non aggressive manner. So it's your job to learn to navigate these relationships and respond in a way that you're advancing your needs and also being respectful and caring to the person in front of you so my next question is actually about navigating those relationships whether personal professional do we all feel the same emotions or are there differences is there like a segmentation scheme and across what factors might very. That's a really great question. Interestingly enough when I asked this question of do we all feel the emotions to an MBA class full of lots of very smart people. I will get anywhere between thirty to seventy percent saying we do not feel the same emotions which I think is mind boggling. Because we're all humans we all share the same physiology at the end of the day now to answer that question. Paul Ekman ended up going to a tribe that was not contacted by the outside world and he started videotaping their expressions and he started showing them different expressions from different cultures. And ask them. What is the story of this emotional expression? Basically what he found is that there's no such thing as someone. Let's say showing an angry face when they're happy or someone smiling when they're angry naturally naturally there's no such thing there are seven emotional expressions give or take some research. I want to hear what the seven seven emotional expressions that basically our core emotions that we all express so it's enjoyment fear disgust contempt surprise sadness and anger there are of course different variations than their secondary emotions which is something like gilt compassion right but those are the core emotions. We feel now. Culture gives US QUEUES FOR WHAT IS OKAY TO EXPRESS. And how okay so? There's a great study that poet Americans and Japanese to watch a movie so Japanese are known to be a little bit more reserved. So you might assume that. They're not feeling emotions right now. When both cultural groups didn't think that they were being watched both the Americans and the Japanese expressed the same emotions at the exact same time throughout the movie in the same way or similar exactly the same way but when they thought they were being watched only the Americans expressed emotions interesting. That's really interesting. That's very powerful lesson about the role of culture in moderating how we express but also to to suggest just because someone isn't expressing something the way you would expect it doesn't mean they're not feeling it. So the onus falls on you to try to be a little bit more patient and be a little bit more expressive and ask them what they're thinking right things. I say just because you learn how to read body language doesn't mean your mind reader and there are people out there who have studied body language. That are misguiding. You faking it. Oh my God I I have to say. That's one of my hugest pet peeves. I'm sure I hate. I hate people that call themselves. Experts that do not ground anything that they know in facts. And this is so upsetting. Because they're perpetrating false narratives. They're giving people the wrong tools and in that moment where you genuinely wanted to learn and improve. You might think that there's something wrong with you because you're following this thing that it's using quotes experts. Say You should do. And it's not working. Well it's not working. So are you talking about body? Language coaches I'm talking to lots of different types of coaches body language coaches. Yeah because so when I started looking at people in pop culture and people like writing books about it. I started looking out there. The names I know who yeah. I started looking at the CVS. And I'm like I remember. Recently I saw someone saying to be a body language expert and he was. A doctor was a chiropractic. Doctor I think we all have valuable knowledge but just be honest about what you are. Go to bring that in. How do you feel Tatiana? Tell us what emotion are you feeling right? Oh my God. I'm not amused news funny. What about males versus females? That is an interesting one. Interestingly enough when women have neutral faces it gets coded as negative by meals right so this this speaks to this idea of like people always saying well you should smile more specifically to women in our culture we do not like women having neutral faces and there's a study that actually even like famous celebrity women who showed that this idea of quote. Unquote RESTING BITCH. Face is just a woman having a neutral face right. It was actually just GonNa say that if you're face needs to give yourself a break like needs to rest but also know that males and females have to express more positive emotions in the relationships another interesting one for example is when men speak up in meetings it. Cena's as taking initiative and his rewarding but when females do what they're seen as rude and they actually got pinged so again there's all these cultural cues that we put on top of gender. That really misconstrue what. The person is feeling an another huge difference is women are allowed to express sadness but they can express anger and men are allowed to express anger but they can express sadness. So what you get is a lot of the time you'll find women cry when they're angry and they don't even know that they're feeling angry because they've been so conditioned to suppress a and if anger is about boundaries right. It's so fascinating because it's basically women's boundaries being violated and them not knowing that they need to act an assertively. Say No. This isn't okay. That is really interesting. Yes changing over time. Do you think I think it's important to note that we all feel the same emotions regardless of gender culture and if we start from that place and we start learning how to express ourselves. We can cultivate relationships that are genuine. And that can be a starting point to have more honest discussions and maybe start changing. Corporate Culture Academia's very powerful in just debunking cultural myths. Right so we can stop saying this idea of like women are so emotional and men are so rational. Aren't even know what that means. But I do know what's wrong. Imagine that that would that would mean that. That makes me very upset. But when you have this research and you. Let's say laid out to business. Students are exempts. Then they start shifting the way they see people and their employees and I do see a big difference in my students when they walk out because they email me years later saying you know what what you taught me helped and last year. I'm so thrilled. I actually had someone's wife message to the students saying like thank you because I've noticed a difference in my husband. Yeah it's so exciting. Because I focus on negotiations in the business context but at the end of the day. We're all humans were social and so everything's about managing social relationships and once you learn that skill it transfers over to different aspects of your life. Is there anything else? In terms of advice you have for listeners. Related to emotions and optimizing their communication. You know what I'm GonNa leave you with this message that I share to all my students a lot of the Times. You might sit there and say all that person's kind of making me feel bad. I promise you it's not them. It's you it's you so if you start with the assumption that it's you now all of a sudden you have the responsibility and the ability to go do something about it. Start investing in yourself by learning to meditate learning to regulate your emotions learning what anger and sadness feels like in your body and start to also pick up communication tools in practicing them. So how does how to speak your boundaries how to express your needs how to make demands of people. How do you say no to people and from that space with all those tools all your relationships are GonNa Improve? Once you learn to express yourself differently. People are just automatically going to respond to you differently. That's that's a worthy endeavor it's exciting. It's empowering it's Me Okay. It's my turn to step up and the last thing. I WanNa say is if you do your work and the counterpart isn't matching you. Then you've learned something valuable about that relationship and you want you might WanNa walk away or put some contingencies in place to protect you from people so not only does this deepen relationships but it will show you which are the good ones in your life in which are the bad wins. I think that's an amazing thing to know. Because then you can just invest your time and the people that matter to you okay. Now we're GONNA shift to the five rapid fire questions that I ask every guest. Are you ready? I'm ready first question. What are your pet peeves? People walking in the middle of the street. I find this very upsetting because I can't walk around them People who say Shenzhou instead of schedule. That's a very specific one. I like when I hear it in a business meeting. I part of me just like clicks off and goes on and that's squeaky noise a knife makes on please like I have left restaurants when I realized that was the thing that was going to be happening all name. I can't handle it really. Yeah like stands down a weird Chevron my spine and I think I have a physical reaction to it interesting very strange question number two. What type of learner are you visual? Auditory kinesthetic or some other kind of you know what? I actually learned through having a personal connection to the material independent of the medium. So if I know it's important. If I see the relevance in my life I will die deep into it. But if someone's just telling me some sort of theory it really doesn't matter like how they're presenting it. I'm just going to check out. So it's almost like experiential learner. Yeah I I think that must be what it is. Yep question number three introvert extrovert. I am an introvert who has learned to an extroverted introvert. While I enjoy mixing with lots of people do it I feel extremely excited afterwards and I literally need to go in a dark space and be myself okay. You were introvert interesting. Okay number. Four communication preference for personal conversations. You know what I love voice messages. I love voice messages because emotions are expressed through our body. Our face and our voice and our voice is super rich. Okay last question. Is there a podcast or log on email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most I have to recommend four? Okay okay so the first one that I love his relationship alive by Neil Satin. And that's he's a therapist where he talks to scholars in different therapists. All about communication tools Relationships it's a really great resource okay. I'm going to put a link in the show notes to all of these just in case listeners are scrambling yes don't scramble The next one that I love is. Hp are women at work and that's an editorial team against talks to researchers and gives you practical take takeaways and I've learned so much from podcast I like it. Just it's amazing Another one that I love is the men talked podcast with connor beaten. I think that's really great for men because he taught he's a therapist and again there's a lot of really great conversations about communication and relationships and the last one I'm going to give you as Francesca maximes. Wise girl which is more for minorities and it's really understanding. How cultural structures impact your individual behavior and how to come out of that so again She is she actually is a journalist. And she talks a lot about race intergenerational trauma patriarchy and it's a great resource for that group. Wow what a list and I have to say. It's really interesting that you have the podcast. That's targeting women at work but then also men words almost like you're exercising media hygiene in your podcasts. Yeah I think it's really important to be aware of the different conversations happening and to not be stuck in your own silo so I share those four. Podcast I listen to all of them. But you know if you need to find something that speaks to you. I believe. That's that's how you should start. Thank you so much. I learned a lot of listeners. Well too and we can do it against in time. I would love that and it's been a pleasure to be here in. Show this information. Thank you isn't touchy on impressive. What a privilege it is to interview someone who so knowledgeable and so passionate about a topic that's important to us in our quest to improve our communication skills. Thank you and best of luck to you in completing your dissertation in a few months I just know. We'll be calling you Dr Tatiana Astray Okay as promised. I'm now going to summarize everything that we covered in this episode. I categorize the learnings into four areas. I general insights about emotions. Second positive emotions third negative emotions and last five specific tactics that you can try right now as I said. You can access this principle summary in the show notes on the talk about. Talk Dot Com website under the PODCAST TAB okay. Are you ready? I generally emotions are physiological reactions. So they're different from feelings or moods. They evoke action. That's why you heard. Tatsiana talk about emotional expressions. She said that in her research. The correlation between feelings. Or what you think you're expressing and what you're actually expressing is not significant emotions are always directed towards an object a person or an event and emotions can be entrusted personal or they can be interpreted in other words they can be internal or they can be social. The three social functions of emotional expressions at the interpersonal level are one to no intentions to to vote complementary behaviors and three to reinforce behaviors. If you've done some reading on E. Q. Or emotional intelligence. That's exactly what we're talking about here. But more simply we can think of emotional expressions as a body dance. That helps coordinate behavior and maintain relationships. Personally I find that term body dance very helpful. It reminds me that it's the emotional expressions not the feelings that really matter. People are responding to the way. I'm acting physically not to what I'm thinking or feeling as touch said your intentions mean diddly squat in your interactions with people. It's what you're actually expressing. That matters got it. That said Tach also highlighted that we all feel the same emotions regardless of gender and culture. Of course our culture and upbringing may teach us to suppress the expression of certain emotions but rest assured that crying. Or maybe fist-pounding colleague of yours is feeling the exact same set of emotions as everyone else and those core emotions include. Fear DISGUST CONTEMPT. Surprise Sadness and anger things like guilt and compassion are considered secondary emotions. It's our culture that provides us with the cues for what's okay to express. And how do you remember touchy on said that? Generally women are allowed to express sadness. Anger and men are allowed to express anger. But not sadness. That's kind of sad. Don't you think okay moving on to positive emotions? Did you notice that Tattoo on? His list of six emotions did not include any positive emotions. Will I did? There was fear. Disgust contempt surprise sadness anger. Well Tathiana did mention a few positive emotions. Specifically we talked about enthusiasm. Interest and validation these emotional expressions can lead to a more positive relationship and according to a research more positive negotiation outcomes so first enthusiasm. This is a big one. Tach said that based on her research. She tries to explicitly express enthusiasm particularly at the beginning of an interaction. So this could be literally saying something like I am so excited to be here and to work with you. Then there's interest as in demonstrating interest not just with your words but also with your body language leaning in making eye contact focusing on what the other person is saying and doing. And then there's validation as in I hear what you're saying or I understand where you're coming from these are the common Eq- or emotional intelligence scripts that you might be familiar with all right. Moving onto negative emotions. We need to limit the expression of particularly negative emotions like threats defensiveness or fear. But you remember when touch said that. We should never suppress emotions. Suppressing emotions is unhealthy for physiologically. And psychologically if you're feeling threatened defensive or afraid you need to take a break so maybe you're in a meeting and you notice someone else is feeling this way. According to the research it takes about thirteen minutes for an emotion to dissipate so make an excuse to take a break for everyone's sake oh and negative emotional expressions also include whining and complaining. Tattoo said that whining is never a good idea in negotiation. Well that's not surprising. Is it but I'm reminding about this point so that you can share that research with your kids when they're whining you're welcome okay. So now you have a basic understanding of emotions. Positive emotions and negative emotions. Here are some tactics that you can try their five first. There's the one I just talked about. Take a break. Remove yourself from the situation if you're feeling negative. Emotions that can negatively impact a relationship or negotiation. Take time out second. If you're feeling negative emotions try some other relaxation techniques. Such as meditating or breathing like the box breathing or deep belly breathing that touchdown a mentioned. I talk about these in detail in episode number forty three posture and breathing with Dr Nadine. Kelly you can find a link to that episode in the show notes. The third tactic you can try is tracking the positivity ratio. Apparently we can predict divorce with a ninety four percent accuracy based on the ratio of positive to negative emotional expressions in romantic relationships. The magic relationship ratio based on John. Famous research is five to one so five positive expressions to one negative expression in professional relationships. Research shows that the praise to criticism ratio's higher for higher performing teams again. Not really surprising is it. So don't hesitate to complement your colleague. And when you're negotiating tach research shows that a ratio of about three positive emotional expressions to one negative resulted in the best negotiation outcomes. So here's your tactic to try. Add some more positive emotional expressions especially at the beginning of important interactions expressing. Enthusiasm is a great example. So start your email with. I'm really excited about this project or start your lunch meeting with a comment like I'm so happy that we're finally connecting. Keep it at least three to one positive to negative. Keep it real but keep it positive. The fourth piece of tactical advice emojis. Yes there are pros and cons. First and foremost we need to consider context. Emojis are considered very informal. So don't be sending Smiley Heart emojis in a formal business proposal okay. Most of us knew that already right and we also know that emojis can help clarify emotional expression a great tip. That Touchy Anna. Shared with US regarding emojis is that we can use them. Effectively to signal that we're aligned with someone by matching or mirroring them in other words replied with the same Emoji that they sent to us. That's a great tip signaling that you're Simpatico. The fifth tactic is more general taking responsibility for your emotions. Remember Tatiana had this beautiful quote. She said a lot of times. You might sit there and say. Oh that person's kind of making me feel bad but I promise you it's not them it's you. There are several implications for this. For example according to attribution theory one attribution bias is that we understand the context and complexity of our own lives but we dismiss the complexity of others. We need to identify emotional expressions in ourselves and others and talk about them. Remember on said just because you learn how to read body. Language doesn't mean you're a mind reader. I love that another implication. Is that if someone says something and you take it way more personally than you should. There's a good chance that you may have some unresolved trauma that you need to work through. And then there's touchy Hannah's Meta Advice. Oh I hope you got this loud and clear. We have a responsibility to educate ourselves with the tools and scripts and communication skills to articulate our needs. I'm GONNA leave you now with touching Anna's concluding quote. She said quote if you start with the assumption that it's you now all of a sudden you have the responsibility and the ability to go do something about it. Start investing in yourself by learning to meditate learning to regulate your emotions learning what anger and sadness feels like in your body and start to also pick up communication tools and practicing them so how to sit how to speak your boundaries how to express your needs how to make demands of people how to say no to people and from that space with all those tools all your relationships are going to improve once you learn to express yourself differently. People are just bottom going to respond to you differently. That is a worthy endeavor. Well put and that is precisely why we talk about talk right. I hope you found that helpful. I really encourage you to check out the summary in the show notes on the talk about Talk Dot Com website. I also included links to touch on academic research and some other books and research papers focused on emotions. If you enjoyed this episode and you learn something I have to ask one. Please tell your friends you can send them an email or posted on social media or yes tell them in real life. I would really appreciate it. And secondly if you're not signed up already please sign up for the talk about talk email blog where you'll get free weekly communication skills. Coaching from me delivered directly to your email inbox. Just go to the talk about talk. Dot Com website. Or email me directly. And I'll add you to the list. I'd also love to hear what you think about this episode any ideas you have for future episodes or anything else. Yes I'm enthusiastic. I'm also interested in what you have to say. You can email me anytime at Andrea at talk about talk dot Com. Thanks for listening and talk soon.

Tatiana Astray Tathiana Inger Dr Andrea Wojnowski US Tach tra rape Tennessee Ivey school University of wealth York University hugh Ryerson Shula School of business Paul Ekman
Hagfishology (HAGFISH) with Tim Winegard

Ologies

1:17:00 hr | 1 year ago

Hagfishology (HAGFISH) with Tim Winegard

"Oh, hey, it's your uncle's army, buddy. Who makes superb banana bread alley ward back with another episode of allergies? First off. I know you you're either like a hag fish or you're like, yes. Hag fish, but an hour of hag fish. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Here's a secret you need to know. We are all hag fish, we're shy. Sometimes, but we have friends we have preferences. We can make do we have hidden talents. Sometimes people underestimate us until they realize our superpowers. And then they stand back, and they marvel and buy marvel I mean, listen to a whole episode about half fish. But before we dive into the deep sea of this slimy. Our let's first by tradition. Thank all the folks on patriarch dot com slash all Jews who make these episodes possible will hear some of their hag fish queries later, and to all the folks buying all Ogies merch at the Lincoln, the show note and sporting it, and of course, to all of you kind. Souls who have rated and subscribed to the pod. And also left you reviews for all that word, which I read by lantern light with a tear in my eye such as this week, Jen bagels. Just wrote alley. I hope you really do read every review because I want you to know that the world is a better place because you're in it. I don't deserve that. That's too nice. Don't leave me cry case up HD, which I guess, I'm realizing just now as ks you PHD. So sorry says here's a tip. Don't cherry pick the episodes. You think you'll be interested in just been Jamal? They're all delightful. Thanks case up HD. Okay. Hag fish hag fish. Okay. First off you're gonna have to wait to hear. How hag fish got its name. Sorry. It was a common patriarch question. We're going to address it later. This is click Beatty as I get Secondly, yes, the term hag fish g has been used before. I did not make it up. Eighty two thousand thirteen biology graduate students semina-. Our schedule included the talk quote adventures in hag, fish, all Aji sulfate transport, an extra bring Kiel mechanisms of ion regulation in Pacific hack fish by Alex Clifford, so hag fish all Aji titles Jit haters. So this episode exists because science journalist Ed young wrote an article for the Atlantic in January with the headline no one is prepared for hag fish lime. And he was so right. It included photos from two thousand seventeen traffic accident Oregon in which seventy five hundred pounds of hag fish tipped over on a wind. Eat foresty highway and slicked the roads and the cars in incomprehensible amounts of slime. I immediately started googling hag fish scientists had a few on the list, and I was thrilled to see that they were based in southern California. They were on my spreadsheet a few weeks ago, my friend wildlife educator, Mallory Lindsey who is amazing went to the same lab. And I message sure, and I was like I've been wanting to do. An episode on this. How are they the next day? My phone rang. It was a hag fish, Allah. Just just using the phone like it was nineteen Ninety-seven so charming. So we met a few days later on a street corner. You're Chapman campus in Orange County. And he has a bright smile kind of surfer esque, golden hair and a rutty beard, and we drove around looking for parking because again, this is southern California. And then we hit the lab, and he showed me gurgling, chili salt water tanks filled with a few dozen soft pinkish purplish grey floppy hotdogs with mouths, and then he let me create a one in my open palm. And it felt like a very floppy hot dog like if God put a face on an intestine and just stopped. There were these specimens slimy. Not really until this Allah just urged me to annoy one give it a little pinch. He coaxed milliseconds later. It seemed my hand was drenched in a thick veil of elephants. Not I. Is transfixed so hack. Fish are disgusting, and they deserve our respect. So this all just as you will hear from the dulcet tones of his Canadian accent hails from the north. And he got his bachelors and masters studying zoology at the university of wealth. Whilst there he happened to take an invertebrate zoology class with hag fish master, Dr Douglas fudge with whom he now works as a research, associate at Chapman. So prepared to hear about swift escapes outlasting extinction events, the mysteries of the deep. Why you guess don't always need a spine eating your way out of a dead thing. Disappearing a trace and like a slippery messiah converting water into slime with human delight and professional hag fish, Allah gist. Tim wind guard. And now, I don't know if you know this, but you are technically a hag fish, all it just. I don't know if I've ever heard it put that way. But I probably want a few. Yeah. I looked it up to see if there was a like a more Latin sounding name, and the term that's been used the most to describe what you study is literally hag fish, Allah. Just like there are people have used that word. So it's a thing or run with it. What is a hag fish for someone who's never seen or touched one. So I guess the best way to describe them is there. A benthic deep sea dweller, right? So essentially all hag fish share that in common. They all live along the bottom substrate of the oceans, and the majority of them below a hundred meters in depth about three hundred feet, right since I note this Allah just jumps between metric and u s why are we still not metric measurements? So I don't have to convert it thank frigging God. So what they are is a jollies primitive. He'll like creature right? I'm hesitant to call them a fish, even though it's in their name because they aren't necessarily a traditional fish, right? They they lack scales. They lack jaws. They lack is they lack what we traditionally referred to his fins. So they're in many ways, very primitive version of of a modern day fish right there. Thought to have diverged at around the same time that vertebrates popped up on the evolutionary spectrum. So these seconds are oh old. God you so old. Yeah. Millions of years to think so there is fossil evidence up to three hundred and fifty million years, but they're likely over five hundred million years old. Wow. Yeah. So among some of the I like really highly organized Seth allies, which means essentially, like head focused creatures so had fish for a long time or defined as cranium, which means that they have a cranium surrounding their brain. But they have no calcification of anything in their body. So it's all cartilage. Right. So they do have a note accord, they have many of these features that are very vertebrate in a way but lacking calcification lacking gills lacking jaws all these other features. Here's place them in a much more even hesitate to say primitive. But I guess they are primitive features even though hag fish themselves are obviously as ancient as they are. They're also very modern like the hag fish. We see today we really don't know how much they relate to the Hague Fisher the past right PS. If you're like not Gord got you. So not cord is by definition a cartilage skeletal rod supporting the body. You had one you had one is a teeny tiny embryo, so it's like a backbone in that gives support structure, but it's not a backbone in that it's not Boney segmented furhter bright. Oh, and the heck fish has a brain case that isn't a skull. It's like a cartilage ribcage around their brain lump and in the hag fish world. There has been decades of heated dramatic. That's highly to imagine it debate on whether hag vici-. Never developed backbone or if they had one, and then just devolved the other way, gradually get rid of the sucker. Oh, and there is and the skull. So kind of like a handsome lanky drifter who's also slimy and eats corpses. Their backstory is still a mystery through fossil evidence of which there's only two it makes it a bit a limited jump in terms of what you can say, there's two fossils of fish. Yes. Soft bodied creatures don't fossilized. Well, right. So when they do die and end up in the bottom, sediment, their tissues are so similar to everything else around them that they don't end up distinct like other animals with calcium or or real bones in their body. Do who's got those two fossils? Where are they? It's a good question. One of them was just discovered and published by group in a bird, and then the other one that's a good question. Has been quite a while since I read the paper, but they would be there. They being museums. Right. There's only two of them now on so I spent so long trying to find out where these two fossils are. And I can tell you that one was discovered in Maysan creek, Illinois. I think around nineteen Ninety-one and the other is from Lebanon and was acquired in two thousand thirteen by a private fossil collecting company, but I earnestly just spent probably two hours trying to figure out if I could just go on a road trip and see a hag fish fossil in person and the lack of information on their whereabouts has led me to believe that they're both kept in a subterranean vault with the holy grail or they're just like kicking it like ballers in a timeshare with Bigfoot so precious. Yes, super precious. And like, I was saying very rare. Right. But as we uncover more fossil beds, there are particular fossils Asian conditions that lend themselves preserving soft bodied animals better thing. There's just a big. Deposit found in China actually in the last couple of weeks that has a lot of soft bodied creatures. But I think it's more in the could be right in that three hundred and fifty million four hundred and fifty million year range and going back a little bit less far than that your history when you were just a tiny tot Canadia. Did you always love poking around lakes and forests what was going on? Oh, yeah. For sure. My mom always used to say that she needed to distract me. She just said she just say she saw something in that puddle. And. And I'd be pretty consumed for quite a while. Honestly, I don't think there's a time when I didn't like science in some way, right? Like, I wanted microscopes when I was six and brought home every creepy crawly, I could find and actually I collected butterflies my original plan as a child was to be an entomologist, really. Yeah. Yeah. So I collected you know, large numbers of butterflies from all over the world wherever we went. And then where did you flutter away from them and into fish tank? I would have been. Yeah. In university. When you know, I guess the opportunities to study tropical butterflies were limited in Canada. Border flaw term. So yeah, that's happened. I think was right around two thousand seven through meeting Doug and getting introduced to Hake fish, and then sort of bring being brought into the full does it was into the into the world, the hag fish. There's sort of no end of amazement. That's what's kept me here that almost any question. You can ask about hag fish. They're likely isn't a concrete answer. And so when Doug said, hey, come on back study, some hag fish with me, what was your response to that? Oh, I think it took a bit of prodding. I think because I really did enjoy the wildlife research station and living out in the woods there. But you know, obviously, we're sitting here beautiful sunny, southern California, which didn't hurt have you ever heard a more Canadian sentence. Enjoy the wildlife research station and living out in the woods. There says he loves doing applied Reese. Search on these critters figure out how to use a slime to inform human-made alternatives and his master's work was looking at how we can use these fifteen centimeter long threads that spring forth from the hag fish as a fiber source and get away from petrochemical based fibers like acrylic and nylon and polyester. So although he misses the wilderness trading his parka for board shorts wasn't all that tough. So I think that my my heart's always been into Hague fish is in some ways that maybe didn't take too much. But yeah, I think that the right projects the right people all sorta of lend themselves to to a good time in science. And so explain to me what the life of a hag fish is like where are they living? What are they eating who are the hanging out with what's going on down there? Oh, I think we always we knew. So what we do know is that they're very sensitive to temperature and light. Right. So there are a deep sea specialist they seek out cold water. There is maybe only one species that's found inside of one hundred meters depth. So there is called the inshore hag fish, which is found in Japan. But other than that, they're all very deep sea. They feed on a variety of not only small tube worms and other invertebrates. But also scavenge large windfalls of whales and seals and sea lions and big fish that fall down into the ocean. Deep deep suicide note, remember the two episodes with Sarah McNulty about marine snow that soft steady underwater dusting of poo and flesh chunks while a dead wail is like a marine blizzard and hag fish love a snow day. We know or at least we think that they play an important role in that bottom composition turnover. Right. So when things do fall into the deep there's low oxygen. There are conditions that can lend themselves preserving something like a whale for years. Right. Low temperatures low oxygen. So maybe the bacterial decomposition is not. As prevalent like there would be back till decomposition. But I think there's a place for Haig fish in actually cleaning up the bottom in that way. And then spreading the nutrients around. Right. So as they feed they'll obviously leave go back to their Burrows or go back to where they're living and bring nutrients with them and essentially help spread nutrients in an otherwise, very very desert like deep sea environment, smell it. Find it munch. It pufus spread it. I we were looking in the tank and some of them are all coiled up. Some of them are just hanging out in a tube. What's their day to day life like in terms of what we know about where they live. Some have a tendency to be more muddy sandy bottoms those ones. Those species are typical borough hours. They'll actually live in Burrows in the mud and typically sit there with just their nostril sticking out catching, you know, looking for whiffs of wail or. Heels, but the other ones do spend time on rocky bottoms. And I think those are the species that tend to coil up a bit more because they're just spending a lot more time on the surface as opposed to within the substrate. But yeah, there's been interesting work as well showing that there's handedness that Haig fish have handedness. They have a tendency to coil either, right or left more than the other way. Right. So they have a preference. I think in captivity there's probably only maybe five or six common species for people to have in captivity. There are a number of species that do not do well at all. So they're really hard to keep in artificial environments, essentially, I think partially because is really hard to replicate the pressure that they're used to living in we can replicate temperature and salinity and ph and all these other environmental parameters, but is really. Hard to recreate being you know, a mile below the surface ocean. How are they making baby hog fish? Nobody knows what. Yeah. So nobody has ever witnessed hag fish breeding. Wow. And nobody has ever had. Hey, fish, successfully breed in captivity even unseen to produce for tile eggs. So we have had fish laying eggs in captivity all the time. But there presumably unfertilized because they never develop. Wow. Right. So this is something that I'm really interested in as well is that is their season -ality in the deep sea, even though it's dark and cold all year are they more attuned to those deep sea conditions, and maybe sense the difference in lunar phases. Do they have a migration are they always in the same place all the time? And I think that they are moving throughout the season. But it's just not a lot is known about it. Because it's so hard to follow these things into the deep a lot of the technology. That's used for tracking fish and other stuff isn't that either the size scale that could be used in hag fish, or is just the fish need to come to the surface to get data Ping's and Haig fish. Never will right, right. So yeah, they're really tough to follow. And we've got a new underwater video rig that we're gonna use to try and at least peer into their lives a little bit. Would you think that they would be following the whales in case Awale does bite the dust and falls down? I think Wales are typically undergoing such large migrations that hey fish wouldn't be say following the herd type thing, I think they're low metabolism. You know, suits them well to possibly go a year or more without feeding even in captivity. We typically only feed them every three to six months. Yeah. They they eat a lot when they eat. But they don't eat frequently. Wow. What do you feed them in captivity? They get a bit of a mixture, there's shrimp and squid and beef and sometimes other random large fish that. We come across in our word. I think we fed them an Oprah. Which is a very interesting. Interesting fish, okay. So quick aside researching Oba OPA h got a lot of hits on Oprah. It's a different thing and Oba is a big silvery round fish. It's also called a moon. Fish looks like a moon an Oba are one of the rare endothermic fishes, which means like Oprah. It has a warm heart. We feed them a diversity of stuff hopefully trying to get them the right nutritional requirements, they need. But again, it's something that is not really well understood and something that we're looking to do. More on is gathering, gut contents from Hegg fish, would you just drop like a pot roast in the tank, and they go nuts on it, essentially. Yeah. What does that look like like it's a bit of a feeding frenzy. Yeah. They're all going at it. It's really interesting as well though, because they lack appendages, and they don't have a jaw the way if it is actually like say a big pot roast. They actually Ty themselves into not that they slide against the pot roast too actually tug on it. Mike. Yeah. So they say the same knots to rid themselves of slime, but they have a very unique way of actually latching onto something without jaws. Right. So they can pull at exactly get like some resistance. Have you ever seen a hag fish eating in a whale? Only in film. I've never seen it in real life. I would love to do they go into the whale. And then burrow out. Yeah. The they are definitely spending a lot. Time inside the whale. A recent study was published actually showing that they can absorb amino acids across their skin. Right. So they, you know, part of their low metabolism their ability to deal with low oxygen all of these unique adaptations. Really allow them to live that lifestyle. It's not a lifestyle choice Bella and to go into a whale in which oxygen concentrations could be quite low bacterial levels high. All this other stuff. They're they're perfectly at home may may feed there for months on end for months just gorging and then be like by and then go hang out here. Yeah. Yeah. That's so efficient. I have to say that's good good for them that it's like take on a lot of cargo. And then just kick it for. But I think we see that with anything. That's was stood the test of hundreds of millions of years, right? That they're typically generalists right there. You know, something like a crocodile right can eat. Anything can go months and months without eating like, they just there's certain life history characteristics that lend themselves to a standing mass extinctions, and all of the climatic changes that impact very niche specific species right after this interview, Tim, and I went and we ate tacos. And I realized later it despite flinging around wet loaves of hag fish mucus in the lab earlier, neither one of us wash your hands. But we also had a spirited discussion about the importance of diverse microbiome. So I think we're on the same like so what page there also at? Lunch. He mentioned that the hag fish traps are like buckets with a few conical ports that funnel the hag vision. So they can't get out. But what do they use to lure them into the bucket? Turns out hag fish love, the smell of big mammal bones and fat. So they toss a fleshy beef bone in there. And I was like do they get to eat it, and he's like that would mess up their gut content data. So the beef bones are in a mesh bag, meaning that the hag fish, smell it find it, but can't munch poop it or spread it. The hag fish have been catfish d-, and they tend to eat the bigger things like if a will see lion is that kind of what their bread and butter is. Oh, man. There's big whale. It's big dead floating down here thanksgiving. What's happening? I think that's the that's the the real train of thought that we're on is essentially that a lot. Out of their features a lot of their out of -tations would lend themselves to really capitalizing on those big wail falls or big mammal falls. They have very low metabolisms. If you compare them to a vertebrate, they'd have one of the lowest metabolism's of any vertebrate. Really, right. So yeah, they they live slow. So there's that right. There's. We've observed them absolutely gorging these deep sea sites. Right. So they just you know, they fill their guts to the point that there may be many times their original mass, well hungry so to be able to do that as well makes you think that this is that's predominantly what they're doing. But we also see that they do feed on some sort of tube worms, and these other invertebrates that are found in the sediment in which the heck fish live. So and can you run me through some body parts of a hag fish? Yeah. So I guess if you're going to have a head fish out on the table, they how they do have a head. Right. So they have barbells at the end of the head which essentially their chemical sensing devices. Right. They haven't catfish. Yeah. Catfish have barbells as well. Right. So yeah, they'd be packed with what we call chemo sensory cells. That would be picking up things like the. The the sense of dead or decaying fish writer away. All so they start with those. They have a very large intake aperture for their Gill system. So seawater gets snorkeled through their face snoot. And then that water is expelled through these breathing holes on the side. So they're kind of like a slimy. Water flute that someone sewed from a deep owned baby. Anyway, they smell like champs. It also feeds into a sack right very close to their brain. So they have probably an incredible ability to detect very Saint or very faint, smells, which makes sense. Right. If they're potentially hundreds of meters from something that fell or maybe even further, right? So they have very primitive is if you look at a lot of the Hague fish. They don't have the type of is that we would normally associate with the fish. There's actually don't even protrude. Through the skin. So there's a transparent layer of skin that covers a very rudimentary. I that was likely more developed at one time, but was just not selected for and they essentially lost its full functionality. So is we're off that had lost him baller. Now. What is happening? We fat mouth. First of all it has these wisc read flesh dangles that look like a tiny handlebar moustache made out a little Dix. But don't go looking for jaws here. No, no, sir. They have what Tim calls a muscular appendage inside their mouth, and it juts out this little paddle of hard jagged spikes, kind of like a snail stone. So imagine if are tongue had rows and rows of those things in parking, lots that will pop your tires. If you drive the wrong way on them. So. Yeah. Hag fish? They deserve our respect. So essentially there are these correctness. Teeth or the same the same material that makes up our fingernails makes out their their their rasp, which they use to actually. Essentially sand tissue off of a carcass or to slurp up a little worm that they're after. But then when you look at the rest of them, they vary a little bit in terms of their Gill. Apertures that water flows out of the more burrowing specialist. Hag fish will have reduced numbers of Gill openings in which the water flows out of again, what are flute now all of this is just the tater skins that Hala Pino poppers appetizers before we get to the main course because here here's where things get slimy. Now, if you've listened to previous episodes of allergies or the first twelve seconds of this one, you know, I don't censor language the hag fish most science podcasts bleep out questionable. Swear words. But I am brace raw emotion and freedom of adult expression in science communication in this podcast. At least with the exception of the word. Mucus? It's too gross. It comes up between ten to fifteen times and the remainder of this episode. So when you hear a faint chime? Please. No, it's just replacing the word mucus, please feel free. Take a glove of your beverage in front of you do a tiny imperceptible, but dance to celebrate the absence of this word, and then as you move into the rest of the body, you'll notice along the ventral side that they have about one hundred one hundred fifty slime gland openings, right? So they're literally covered head to tail with these glands that produce their defensive slime. So whether their bid on the head or on the tail they can in a fraction of a second like less than one hundred milliseconds produce copious quantities of this fiber, reinforced slime, which is astounding down like four something that is maybe not as advanced as some other vertebrates. This is a defense system that is still very much mysterious intervals of how it how it works. Right. I think. Yeah. So I if everything else about the hag fish, we would call primitive. This is highly derived, right? This is unlike anything else found in nature, we know of a lot of mucus is we know of a lot of natural fiber sources like silkworm silk or spider silks, but Haig fish threads that are found in their slime are not only comparative to spider silks in terms of their mechanical properties that they're incredibly tough. But they produce this stuff in prodigious quantities. This cannot be overstated like an individual hag fish may have twenty thousand kilometers of fiber in in its body at any one time. And what's so unique about these fibers is that they're packaged into fifteen centimeter fiber Lancs, but that's coiled into one hundred fifty Micron cell. So like a little bit more than. A tenth of a millimeter, they pack fifteen centimeters of thread into so to put that in perspective, the threads that make up this water, trapping slime network are ten million times longer than they are wide. And they are somehow neatly coiled like a skein of yarn into a tiny cell capsule ready to be ejected unfurled. Now. More on how that works in a minute. But admit you love hack fish. How are they calling this? What is their gooey witchcraft? You're intrigued so that process in and of itself has been something that has really intrigued us for quite some time. And is it hard for them to make more of it? If they slime someone in there like Bye-bye late. Do they have to go sit in in produce more is is. Energy expensive for them. Yeah. The fibers are made up of protein, which in general is quite expensive to make. But one of the unique things at the Hague fish does by having so many slime glands. Is that it never deploys them all at once? Right. So they do how some site specificity, right? If you bite it on the tail and may only release exit is what we call the condensed slime essentially in may only release a few glands worth like two or three glands on either side of its body, which is enough to produce a gallon of forms line. So like they would never be caught without slime ever run. They just have so much on board. And there's some indication as well that they can't actually release all of the slime from a single gland because they likely retain the immature cell components, which would otherwise maybe be released but not function as. I should what happens when these fibers hit water. Yeah. So that's something. That's really interesting to us. So it's a two components lime. It's released by what's called Khawla, crowns, secretion, which means that the cells are actually having their membranes stripped off of them as they pass through the poor of the slime gland. Wow. Right. So it narrows down to a tiny opening that strips the cells of their membranes. So when they're released to see water, they're exposed to an entirely new environment. Right. What there's an interaction with the seawater. There's essentially the soluble as Asian of proteins that help maintain these fibers in their coiled upstate. But what happens is that the seawater very rapidly burst vesicles that are released they share out into these long strands, which essentially transmit. Forces of mixing down to the thread bundles so Winston replayed a hack fish takes the offense defense agenda tiny coiled balls of the exit getting their little membrane covers stripped as they exit the threads hit the water at expand trapping, more water and a net of micro fiber threads expanding ten thousand times its size slime predator offense retrieves done for the count. Hag? Fish remains the champion of the deep wherein in. Tim's words to simplify what I just said. I guess. The says released really vigorous mixing that's created by the hag fish trying to escape or the predator. Trying to eat the head fish further expands as network of fiber and tell it forms this fully formed slime ball, which is capable of fully clogging. The gills of a ten foot shark, right? We've never seen a successful predation on a hag fish by any Gill breathing predator. So we see sea-lions birds porpoises all successful Hague fish predators because they're breathing mechanisms are separated from their eating mechanism, essentially, just like us, right? Like, we can breathe and eat at the same time. Whereas most Gill breathing fish can't they're breathing all the time. And that is what exposes them to the slime. So you got gills you got screwed. And so that's line. We'll just clog their actual respiration. Exactly like, I'm out shuts the water flow from going across their gills. And we actually don't know what happens to them because all of the video work that's been done as happened with wild free living animals when the sharks or the fish gets line. They quickly leave the video frame, and we actually don't know whether they actually die or whether any of these animals can get the slime off their gills. It just gets wrapped around everything with the thousands of you know, with miles and miles of fiber. It's very easy for it to just get wrapped around things and stay there. Man. And so how much of this slime is actually water and how much is the fiber protein. So when the exits released into seawater and fully sets up is over ninety nine percent seawater so essentially head for slime can be formed in any container. It'll conform to the shape of almost anything. We did a study that showed that it's actually one of the softest materials known to man, it's very deform -able society. This study was concentration independent mechanics and structure have had fish slime and one of the paper's authors. Randy ill waltz told the Atlantic Eddie on that hag fish slime is one of the softest materials ever measured in quote jello is between ten thousand and one hundred thousand times stiffer than hag fish slime. I have touched it, and it has some soft silky business. And then I went and touch. Nachos because I'm ten thousand times tougher than Piero. Apparently, what when it's put into along Gatien will flow or stretched that's when the fibers and their reinforcement properties start to be felt because they're actually in incredibly strong when you stretch them. What do you think are some applications of hag fish slime are people looking at this being linked? I think so I it's such a unique mechanism. I think first of all the speed with which the slime sets up interest people because whatever is happening and we've been trying to figure this out for years happen. So quickly that it's likely one of the fastest reactions that we know of right, this it's so incredibly fast that I think how we could learn how to not only maybe bundle things, but unbundle or unqualified things. And also how we develop rapidly expanding gel networks would be an interesting application. Right. The fibers themselves. I've always been interested in actually using for textile. They're very very fine. They're Micron in diameter. So even when you think of micro fiber clothing, which is so soft that stuff like thirty to fifty microns in diameter. So it's much finer. So let's get some scale for microns real quick, a Micron is one millionth of a meter and a human hair is around fifty to a hundred microns in diameter, a red blood cell is five microns across the human. I can't see much smaller than around forty microns. So yes, hag fish silk would be Luxuria says hell, it would probably make these office to shirts. Have to do to get it from a like a puddle of to like a loom. Would you have to try it out? I think that you'd probably want to isolate the thread bundles and then work with them on their own. But I think the biggest challenge right now is that it is such a narrow fiber that any of the equipment. That's used right now to spin textiles is not built at a scale that could handle it. Yeah. And now there's a picture that went around the internet that made everyone question what the deal was with hag fish this photo of a car that got into an accident, and it was carrying a ton of fish. And there was slime everywhere. Can you give me any any back story or any any thoughts on that? Well, there is a commercial hag fish fishery hike fish are used as food products in places like Korea they're eating but also for a quite a few years their their skin was used to make you'll skin leather products. So if anybody has something that's called you'll skin leather. It's actually probably Hague fish. So they made belts and wallets and handbags and still do to this day. So it's likely that that transport how to bunch of Hake fish that we're going to market, and when it got in to the accident stress the hag fish out, and they started producing slime. So this happened on the coast of Oregon your depot bay in the photos are bananas. It looks like these giant earthworms covered in silvery ectoplasms on a two lane highway covering the whole thing. They're slithering toward the gutter a four car pileup looks like a giant sneezed on it. There are bulldozers scooping up. Slimy. Lls as they're called by the hundreds there hosing off the road with apparently five thousand gallons of water. And then just letting them die there on the shoulder and hag fish, quite frankly deserve more respect, the local CBS affiliate was on the scene choice would be good. Knows walking in it was ugly and errand Butler had a near miss with all that fish on the ground. It was still moving. I mean, it was there was liquid ill fish. Yeah. Can you imagine? If we did that when we were distressed out like I'm having a day guy. Is there difference between since lime? I think that's a good question. I'm not sure how much slime is. Maybe a technical term. Okay. Right. I think that maybe all slimes have. Okay. You know? But maybe not there's lines. Yeah. No. Yeah. Like with Hegg fish slime. Maybe we call it a slime because it's a two part system. Whereas something like a snail that leaves a trail. It's it's really just okay. Maybe that's what it is. But I guess you call it snail slime too. Yeah. I'm gonna here. I figure that. Yeah. Sure. Okay. I looked into this distinction. And the m word is made by membranes. In slime is derived from the root word for sticky, mud or Marsh. But it now also means thing, you know, what I mean so different routes, but technically now interchangeable terms so just in case you need that information in your everyday life your day to day work with had fish. What does it involve? What are you looking at? What's the process? My work right now is looking at whether or not head for slime can be used. To essentially block the flow of water around different objects. Right. So a boat propeller or a great system or how we can use its natural tendency to clog and reduce water flow in ways that we can essentially harness it as a useful thing for people one idea might be that maybe you can mix it into an oil slick and bind the water and the oil into it. And then remove it that way, right? Like, that's not something we're currently working on. But I always had that interest in that it mops up water. So well that I'd be interested to see what it could do with potential contamination and waterways and other things. Yeah. How do you think? Hag fish are portrayed in the media. I think people love to hate them. Which is sort of sad to me as well. I think that like anything in the ocean. It's not on our radar lot. Right. So once we move off of land into the sea. It's quite literally another world. And when you move from the shallow seas into the deep sea. It's like outer space. Right. So I think that you know, as humans we tend to look at things that have features that are similar to ours. Right. If they have big is Q two, you know, we we look for those features. And I think hag fish pretty much lack everything that we can associate with. So that pride lends it to like, you know, seeming like an ugly worm-like you'll like creature. But I say that the more you work with them, the cuter, they become and, you know, your respect level definitely goes up. Do you have favorite hag fish in the tank or you like what's up, buddy? I think so. Yeah, they do have. They do have different skin features. Just like we do that you can use identify individuals. And I also think that they have personality, right? That some are naturally more relaxed than others. And depending on what you're wanting to do with them. You know, a relaxed hag fish can be a good head fish. I wonder if the other like why is he always get paid? Like, I don't know, man. I'm just cool to kick. It. Just do not date. My new life motto is a relaxed hag. Fish can be a good hag fish. Also, Tim says hag fish do have a reason to be uptight. Scientists aren't sure what affect over or rising. Ocean temperatures will have on their populations plastic is of course, another issue. Tim says we all know, it's on the surfaces of the ocean. But he wonders where it's ending up in the deep sea as well. And what organisms are jesting it? And what that will mean for the future of the hag fish, and he's about to embark on expedition to the Galapagos, he's great at trapping and his tinkering with new observation cameras to deploy folks on his research team referred to him as the heck fish Wrangler. How deep are you able to do research? I think a lot of the limitations are because you like say if we're dropping traps, you typically will have a rope that has to go the whole depth. Right. So if you're in four thousand feet, you need such a huge amount of rope to get down there that it limits say how many traps you can have down at once. So we're experimenting with some line Lewis trapping methods that actually use corrosive links that are made of magnesium that corrode in seawater at a known rate. So that you can draw traps and end our camera equipment in to say, you know, like six thousand feet of water and have them float back to the surface once the link corrodes, so there's some really unique deep sea technologies that are making this stuff possible. Now that maybe wasn't you know, ten twenty years ago. Yeah. This is all start is just ramping up. Yeah. Exciting field of research. I feel like so many eyes are on hag fish to be like what is happening with hag fish, whereas slime coming from how they lived for so long, so quick chicken. I searched hag fish myths, and I did see the Google auto filled with the most frequent questions asked which included our heck fish, poisonous. What no can a hag fish bite a human. No, they don't even have a job. However, if you wound up on the ocean floor not alive it might smell. You find you months? You poop you spread you. But at that point, you would have way bigger problems than the hack fish. Now. I kept searching for more flimflam, and I found that in Korea had fish is an aphrodisiac in a fertility food its shape might have something to do with that. I also came upon a Smithsonian article that said, according to common hag fish mythology they can fill a five gallon bucket with the stuff in mere minutes. And. That is a myth because people it takes seconds and it could fill a barrel. Is there any flimflam about hag fishy would want to debunk any myths that you feel like need to fish miss? You should throw in my way. What what what have you heard? What are they up to? Oh, I I haven't heard. I haven't heard a lot of faulty gossip about a hag. Maybe maybe that they're I mean, they're opportunists. But that's the beauty of them. But do you think anyone do you think people are grossed out by them because of the factor or or I think so okay? Yeah. I would say that really grosses people out. But the reality is in the slime itself. It's not sticky toxic. It's you know, like, it's actually really fun to play with it is I would say that, you know. And I would I would challenge anyone to meet a ahead fish and to see their slime and not be. Intrigued as I am right. It's you literally are sometimes left speechless and end in wonder. Yeah. Have you ever seen any hag fish in a movie or TV show? I think there have been some Hegg fish cartoons. There was a band called hag fish, really like a punk punk band called hag fish. Would you think of them? I never listened to them. I should. Come up on there. Google alerts. They're going to be like, oh, man. That's about the fish again. Yeah. The band hack fish emerged in nineteen Ninety-one broke up in two thousand one and had an energetic Neo punk style descended from the descendants. Now, one of their most revered studio albums is called rocks your lame ass, and according to music journalist, Trixie, delight. They're name itself means nothing to the band personally. It was simply chosen randomly from a dictionary. Here's what they sound like. PS they were suits and had sideburns and open for the Reverend Horton, heat and made a few other albums. So pag fish kind of made a big, but how big can heck fish make it. We're already seeing some of these Fisher four to six feet long. Others are absolutely tiny. Like, you know, ten centimeters. I'm sorry jumping between the two systems. But and and we just don't know how old they get. No. Because nothing calcified there's nothing to Jim mystery. And so that's one of those things that a lot of fish are indeterminate growers. Right. Like, they technically have the potential to grow forever right in the deep sea, especially with such a strong defense mechanism like the slime that they have, you know. Yeah, they could they could live decades. They could live over one hundred years. Who knows there's such quiet bad asses? Yeah. What I love about them. Just like, oh, I'm sorry. Did you want to mess with me? Just like damn Hegg vich. I'm gonna ask you patron questions. Oh my gosh. I got a lot of questions from listeners. That's good. Okay. So before we get to patriot questions. A few words from sponsors of the show. They make it possible for me to give a donation each week to a charity of the Allah just choosing and this week Tim acid it go to his Canadian woodsy science home away from home the wildlife research station and since its inception in nineteen forty four. The wildlife research station has been providing access an logistical support for university and government researchers. It's situated on lake Saskatchewan in the elegant, Gwen provincial park and operates as a non for profit organization. It's been instrumental in these really uniquely long running research projects on wildlife from flies to small mammals turtles and birds and more. So a link to that nonprofit will be in the show notes and up at Allie war dot com slash allergies slash hag, fish allergy. Okay. 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But obviously, I if I were to take a more of a random, guess added. It's has something to do with their looks, right. I'm just going to go ahead and gas suicide note patriot Karla Kennedy asked are we sure they were supposed to be named hag and not gag fish Typos happen. Shrug emoji. Wow. Wow. Carla where is the respect for a slimy jobless sausage with a tiny, dick mustache, and I'm sorry. I made everyone wait this far to hear the family of hag fish. But okay. So the term was first recorded in sixteen eleven and had just comes from their face because they. Thought they were not cute. Sometimes the most obvious answer is insultingly the right one. But, but though hag means technically now, a repulsive old woman. According to the dictionary that word is derived from the word for witch witch, given the magic spell it can cast in the form of a phlegm net, isn't so off-base. And the reason why that word meant which that became the word hag is because it came from a term for a hedge writer as in a supernatural woman who rode the hedges between the safe normal village. And then the wild outer Lance, so hag fish spellbinding rule breaking leaving in the darkness and making alchemy of a whale carcass, turning it into magic nutrient PU now on the topic of kalala Judy, and how women are judged by toxic beauty standards a few people, including. Yeah. Amber and Jonathan Mead as well. As Kelsey Labou, French Sheena Martinez, Meghan Metcalfe, just compered. Amanda Blackbourne Hannah. Lease can't believe a Haro Katie Kelly Hank in Dominica deck and Trent hop asked. This next one, amber, and Jonathan Mead wanna know. Are there any medical or cosmetic uses for hag fish lime? I think there's definitely an interest in the cosmetic field as as in the medical field. In the sense that it can maybe be used as a biological filter. Right. That you know, if it blocks the flow of water and Trump's water you can maybe uses an actual filter material. Oh, there's interest in using it as a food product as well as like an egg replacement. I've seen hag fish slime itself. Turn up in recipes. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So I think that there's people for a long time have been looking to use it for different things. I think partially. What's limited? It is the availability of Hank fish, like they're just not super common on land. And. As well that it's difficult to store the slime. Right. So the way that the Hague fish stores it inside of their glands is not really well understood we under we know the chemicals that are there. We know sort of the environmental conditions inside the gland, but how they function is not really well known and we've had a hard time replicating it. So I think that's another one of the challenges to mainstream use of Hegg fish material is that you need to be able to maintain. Its really charismatic properties. Over time. You're one of the most charismatic people I've ever met, right? And we see that there. It's reactivity to see what or. It's the rate at which it responds in everything changes as we store it. Oh, so yeah. What happens if you have a Mason jar full, the hag fishline it eventually if it's in water, it will collapse, the network does collapse down, and it it essentially will somewhat dissolve away the component is dissolve -able. But we've never followed it over really long periods like days or weeks typically for most our work. We're interested in the really really short timescale stuff. If we were to use hike fish slime for medical purposes, or 'cause medic or anything we need to either figure out how to replicate it or how to store it in really meaningful ways. I feel like if you had a sheet mask that was just hag fishline that would be hydrating as hell. Imagine just is just getting back to lay on your. Just like, I mean, that's essentially what does she mask is? Call analyze wants to know where do they fall in the food chain? Do other animals want to even eat something. That's lying me. But yeah. But if you if you're a mammal a sea mammal, you can chomp on it. But where do they fall in the food chain? I would say. I wouldn't say that they form the bottom of the food chain. Okay. But I wouldn't say that they're necessarily the top either. You know, there's a lot of really active predators, even in the deep like, there's big active shark species. There's big fish species that would probably be the dominant predator down there. But I think that because they have such a strong defense mechanism which could also be viewed as sort of a competitive thing. So as they're feeding at a carcass, they do release bits of slime. Right. And that sort of it went on my as to is whether or not they actually use it to compete around a carcass. Right. So hag fish can all deal with the slime. But nothing else can right. But yeah. In terms of where they fall like they are preyed upon but they're also a predator. So I think they're going to be somewhere in the middle in terms of the you know, the zone of animals out there. I love it. They're like hag fish party only. Okay. So crisper SS next one. But so did Jack and Manon 'Iran Lonnie Bauer. Sonia car Pelevic bunny. Joyce Emilia Blake men kitty Halverson Vence fed sin Zoe. Jane Haley Everson. Erica Hongda, Danny Q inch Alina. They all ask some form of this hungry question. Crisper wants to know we'll have fish sushi ever trend. While hang fish are eaten in Korea and probably elsewhere and southeast Asia. They're barbecued typically. Okay. Yeah. I have never eaten it. I think the more time you spend with stuff the more. You sense? It's distinct smell and the more that it would probably taste like the smell. Eric behind them wants to know have you ever tried eating their slime? No. But I know people have and that it is a part of recipes eg replacement. But again, I don't think the slime would tastes like much it probably tastes like seawater. Seawater doesn't do the same thing in freshwater, less vigorously, really. Yeah. So what is it about the salinity that activates those threads? That's one of the things that we're trying to figure out whether it's active exchanges that go on with ions associated with them the threads. Whether it's a temperature related thing that the slime tends to set up better in cold water, then warm water. So like, it's a fairly fairly complex problem. I guess so we've been going out from a lot of different angles and. You know, we have a fairly good idea of the parameters that result in good slime formation, but the actual chemical basis for it all is still out there, which is so exciting. Is it exciting to be the forefront of this research like bridges thing? Everything we do day to day for the most part has never been done. So that gets me excited. Okay. Heads up. Spoiler alert. This next question may deal with non Newtonian fluids. So I thought I'd drop a def here now, and I'm going to read this part right off of Wikipedia because I didn't want to get it wrong. But a non Newtonian fluid is a fluid that does not follow Newton's law of viscosity. It says a non Newtonian fluids viscosity can change when under forced to be either more liquid or can be more solid. So catch up, for example, becomes runner when it's shaken thus catchup is a non Newtonian fluid. I just learned that right now. And also says custard Honey toothpaste. Paint blood and shampoo are all non Newtonian fluids. It also sounds like just a delicious smoothie just toss them all in a blender Sarah wants to know is hag fish lime is solid or liquid. Is it a non Newtonian fluid is a non Newtonian fluid? Really, so. Yeah. Hague fish slime is composed. It does have solid components to it by because it essentially we call viscous entrapment. So hey, fishline doesn't bind to water it. All right is essentially creates channels that are really narrow that work on the surface tension of water to trap it and slow. It's flow. Right. So it essentially slows water flow to a point that it creates the slime when if you hold that slime out of water all that water will drip out eventually and you'll be laugh with nothing but a bit of fiber. Oh my gosh. So it's kind of like a really good net for water. Exactly. Right. Which is sort of earlier. I say it'd be interesting to apply it to something like an oil spill Z. How it how it worked at mopping up the water with the oil component in it. My gosh. That's so fascinating. Larry Taffer wants to know do hack. Fish have any close relatives to any land animals land animals. I don't think so their closest relative that still living is the lamb pray. Right. So okay. Yeah. So they're they're sort of grouped together with Hegg fish because their Jolla creature that you know, primitive ill like body. But I think there's now, you know, the jury's out about whether or not, hey, fish, actually started out much more vertebrate like and then lost those vertebrate like features. Well, right. So that what we're seeing? Is essentially something that was more complex that actually somewhat simplified and time said they may have just gone on back. That's fascinating. Let's see sukey. Holly wants to know since fishes are creatures of the deep. Do they get the Benz when scientists bring them up to the lab to study? It's a super good question. So a lot of Hegg fish or sorry. A lot of fish have what's called an air bladder which. Actually fills with air to provide buoyancy for them. So they can fill it an empty it to adjust. How you where they are in the water column? Hegg fish don't have an air bladder. So when we bring them up there, actually, totally fine. Right. So a lot of fish. Yeah. It's a good question. Because most fish that you would bring up from that depth or dead by the time they hit the surface because their swim bladder, actually, ruptures and causes severe damage to the fish itself. Hey, fish, don't have that problem, which is one of the reasons we can even study them, right? Because we'd have a really hard time bringing them up a Hegg fish have seemingly no problem coming to ambient pressure at the surface such slimy bat assez. Yep. I'm putting for Hank fish for president. I'm like so in awe of them. I feel like had fish is going to absolutely save the world. Okay. I'm going to ask one more question from a patriot. And then we'll wrap up Travis Damola wants to know what are their social lives? Like do they relate to one another? And where do they sleep? I think that's another great question. So I think hey, fish have very by Brent social life. I think that they we see them living in Burrows together. We don't know about their relationship to each other. But they seem to like to pack together, they do like to be together in congregations. You know, where you find one Hegg fish you. Find more. So whether or not that has to do with the environment being really conducive to hag fish or whether or not they actually seek out a social group. We don't know we're actually working on at least filming them in captivity to better understand how they interact with each other over the days and weeks of you know, circling around these tanks and with very limited hiding spots. Right. We provide them with habitat to Haydn, but we're interested in how they may be compete for that habitat. Like are there dominant Hake fish and subordinate hag fish, or are they sort of devoid of that altogether? Right. Which is also a possibility that, you know, the whole competition that we see in a lot of other animals, maybe such an energy waster for a hag fish that. They just don't do it. Yeah. Maybe they don't care maybe head 'cause you're friendly. Do you do there is there a need for more hag fish all adjusts? I think there's a need for a lot more people to study what's happening in the oceans think it's one of the, you know, in many ways, it end Arctic space or these like crazy frontiers. Right. I think the deep ocean is one of the last unexplored frontiers on the planet, almost you know, a lot of these missions that have gone down to video and find new species almost every time they deploy these are overseas or deep sea submersibles, they find new species. I know that we get very excited when undergraduates come into the lab, and we get to introduce them to hang spread the wonder for sure. But I think that it is one of those things that most biologists that ever come across them are permanently interested, they never lose their interest. And we've seen this with people that are now. In their nineties that love talk and hag fish because they may be worked with them for one year, you know, decades and decades and decades ago, but it was the most interesting things ever. Did you just get caught in a slimy web of love for hacked it? Yeah. All puns. Is there anything I was asked at the very end. Is there something about your job, the sucks, something that frustrates? You was the worst part about your job or had fish. Oh, I think nothing wrong with the Hague fish. But I think in terms of science in general. There's a lot of failure. Right. Like when you're doing projects, you're doing experiments in science, you never know. What's right? You only ever find out what's likely wrong. So I think that would be the most frustrating thing is that you have to, you know, have pretty thick skin in a way, I guess to to deal with, you know, especially going up against questions or developing experiments and apparatus that have maybe never been used or designed before. Right. Like, there's no Hegg fish one. Oh, one book that we can really turn to to figure some stuff out. Right. So there's a good body of literature on hang fish. We do have what we consider the Hegg fish bible. Right. This called the biology of Hegg fish, and there's been I think three iterations of it now. Yeah. See like a copy in your glove compartment. What at home going here for you know? Good. I texted him later and asked what was the hag fish bible. And he said there are two there's the biology of hag fish and hag fish biology. I hope the authors friends. That's it. But I think that's part of the fun to. I'd say the primary frustration is also the primary driver. What is your favorite thing about your job? What's your favorite thing about had Fisher your job? Or what you do? I think it's discovery. I think is like you're saying earlier it's being on the forefront of something. It's being like literally looking into the abyss like how did natural selection act upon this. What does this mean in terms of how Haig fish relate to each other? How do they relate to vertebrates and other fish? And I think that that's something that just keeps us end. Endlessly intrigued because there's more unanswered questions and answer questions, and I think that's good for any scientific field. Right. Like, you wanna think you have a good idea of what's going on? But the more, you know, the more, you know, you don't know. I think that's a good problem that scientists have now into that keeps you going. Oh, yeah. Sure. Great. Thank you so much for doing this. Great. So charmed by act, which is awesome. So remember to ask smart people real stupid gross questions because how else in the world, would you? Discover that hag fishes are handsome drifters and seventeenth century, which is who live in a timeshare with Bigfoot and the holy grail. And they help impotent men have long awaited children, and they deserve our respect. Some of those might not be true, but they are an inspiration for military defense. They could change the way we use fibers. They're pretty chill, and yes, they deserve our respect. Now. Tim one guard is not on social media. God bless this Canadian fish, Allah, just, but you can Google the Douglas fudge lab at Chapman university to learn more about what they're researching so many great resources, we are all Ogies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm Allie ward with one L on both and more links from the show notes and they're up at Allie. Ward dot com slash allergies slash hag. Fish all Aji, you can get merch through. That site or through all Ogies, merch dot com. Thank you, Shannon, felt his bunny Dutch for managing all that. Thank you Hinna Lippo, an errand Halberg for admitting, the wonderful Facebook group, two interns. Harry, Kim and Caleb Patton to Jarrett's sleeper of mine jam media, for assistant editing, and of course to the mysterious slime witch. Steven Ray Morris who edits all the pieces together and also hosts the kitty podcast per cast in the Dyno Centric, one seizure ethic right in the theme. Song was written by Nick Thorburn of the band islands. He also did the theme song for cereal fund trivia, also before the secret, I want to say a quick belated happy birthday to my dear friend, Mike O. Also, happy birthday to Stephen remorse whose birthday is on Wednesday of this week. Happy birthday to Kathryn burns who has a birthday this week. Also to my niece Livia happy birthday to boob, however, bra buyer, good friend, Colleen whose birthday is this week. So many broke birthdays, I love you all if you stick around until the end. End of the episode, you know, until you secret and this one it's pretty straightforward. It's pretty topical the reason that I took the lab tour, and you didn't hear it is because there is one button that I accident Louis pressed on my sue. And it's switched over the mikes. So that the onboard Mike's weren't picking anything up. So it was just thirty two minutes of static. Boom. I'm sorry bummer. Great episode. Anyway, another secret is that I had a dream that I had a livestream and no one showed up to watch it. And I was wearing like dirty Greece spotted leggings that were made by Ferrari. And I was like, oh, these are my good leggings really must these up. Anyway. No one watched my livestream. And I thought ward what are you doing and what he wants to stuff? Anyway, I woke up and was like more. At least for our it doesn't make leggings. Okay. Provide pachyderms college. Allergy does gene. Meteorology? Favor actually had fish nickname slime ill. They get that nickname. 'cause you can see here they secrete slime whenever they're under stress making clean up that much more difficult.

Tim California allergies Ogies Haig Oregon Gill writer Google Amazon Korea Orange County Doug Micron Jen bagels Jamal Mallory Lindsey Beatty Ed young university of wealth
Agriculture moving north, Arrakoths secrets, the microbiome for flight, isheries science with indigenous perspective, slippery surface and seasons on other planets

Quirks and Quarks

55:32 min | 1 year ago

Agriculture moving north, Arrakoths secrets, the microbiome for flight, isheries science with indigenous perspective, slippery surface and seasons on other planets

"Hi I'm Jamie for the last decade I've been a newspaper reporter and lately I'm just finding it hard to keep up with the news as of today. Simple possession of marijuana is no longer illegal. It can be hard make sense of things. Vesta gators spent nine hours in the consulates. Appearance will matter. I want to change that at least a little. Join me weekdays at six am for front burner a daily podcast from CBC news. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcast. This is a CBC podcast modest. Ate All human beings dark-haired inherited cranks hi. I'm Bob McDonald on this week. Show could a warming. Climate see the boreal forest replaced with waving fields of grain from a climactic or a weather related perspective. A huge amount of northern Canada potentially becomes suitable for farming. We're currently no farming exists. Plus building the building blocks planets observations in the distant Copperbelt. Tell us where we stand. What we found out is how these building blocks formed and essentially explains the early stages of planet formation and connect the dots. How do you think biologists saul part of the puzzle of Animal Flight? Doing this. I have spent a lot of time in the fields. Collect the animals in different types of traps and we allow them to defecate in a bag. Also a fisheries research with indigenous roots brings to. I'd seeing to her science and how bacteria skid right off an innovative slippery service all this and more today on quirks and quarks. Climate change is transforming our planet and will change how we live and work on it. This is especially true of the vast northern lands of Canada the huge boreal forest. That we've left at least somewhat. Untouched is likely to be profoundly. Transformed into warming. World in a new study from the University of wealth has concluded that part of that transformation might be that enormous loss of the north could become productive farmland. This could present some interesting opportunities like increased economic development for the north but it could also mean some fearsome environmental and social challenges. If we do it wrong Dr Evan. Fraser is the director of the University of Guelleh's Arrow food institute and is one of the authors of the study. Dr Fraser welcomed corks in. Cork's thank you very much. It's a pleasure. How did you calculate how much farmland could open up with warming temperatures in the north so in this paper? We did something that was quite simple to describe but actually was a real challenge to execute and we simply said as the environment changes as the temperatures warm up as our growing season in the north increases where is their opportunities for agriculture to expand from a climactic perspective. Where might there be a long enough growing season? For instance for wheat to grow where currently we doesn't grow or soybeans or potatoes corn things like that and what we determined was that up from climactic or a weather related perspective. A huge amount of northern Canada potentially becomes suitable for farming where currently no farming exists. Well what areas are you talking about? I mean to be honest. It becomes most of northern Canada most of northern Ontario up into the territories even up into the Arctic areas by twenty eighty or so. Probably we'll have temperature and moisture conditions that could support potatoes. Sweet corn or soybeans. Why you talking about growing wheat in Nunavut from an climactic perspective the climate change projections that we have suggests that there will be enough degree days. That's essentially the length of the growing season and the temperature and enough moisture to support wheat. Production so yes for now. It's one thing for the climate to get warmer up north and increase the growing season. But what about the soils? Can they support agriculture up there? So that's that's a wonderful question. The the paper that we published did not put a soil layer on it. We don't actually know. Because in many cases the soils are are quite quite thin. With that said thirty years ago people looked at the remote. Amazon with thin soils and remote conditions without any infrastructure no roads and said look. Agriculture will never happen in those sort of areas and then it happened. So we're we're we're hoping that through this paper. We can open the conversation around these issues such that. We don't perhaps result with another Amazonian deforestation problem on our hands in the boreal forest. We'll take me through your study. What did you find would happen if we did? Try to turn our northern lands into agricultural areas we see the the northern edge of of soybean production and corn production creeping upwards at a bit from its current conditions or at least getting the conditions that would be suitable or amenable to that But then when we looked at wheat and potatoes the really you know from a climactic perspective. Almost all of the north becomes potentially suitable for producing potatoes or wheat. Which which for me was. That was the sort of the jaw dropping result now and I think a wheat production I think of the prairies vast flat areas with wheat all the way to the horizon. When we looked to the north we see the boreal forest. What's going to happen to that? Well this is my my real concern or the real concern of myself and my co authors and our worry is that agriculture becomes possible farther north. We will take a form of agriculture. Big Undifferentiated monoculture crops for instance for lack of a better word and start pushing that style of agriculture further north. And and our worry is that that will have huge environmental and potentially social impacts. We have to realize that the boreal forest and the peat soils north are some of the biggest carbon reservoirs on the planet between the carbon. That's locked up in the trees and the carbon that's locked up in the top meter of soil up in northern Canada. We had enormous amounts of carbon. So if we start imagining a scenario where we one field at a time start. Cutting those trees down and plowing those fields then we will have the potential of releasing a lot of carbon into the atmosphere so become a big contributor to climate change Similarly we've got big biodiversity impacts on migratory birds and also downstream hydrological impacts if we clear all that land and plowed those fields than we can imagine a significant runoff happening in into the Arctic Ocean and whatnot. So there's some very significant environmental consequences when we imagine developing agriculture up north. So this is a this is a cautionary tale really yeah. In addition to the impacts it can have on the climate and on the forest What about the impact on the People? Who Live in the North Right now of course? These areas aren't just sort of quote unquote empty land There the homes of indigenous communities in northern communities all across and so If we are quote we as a nation are thinking about developing the land to the north for for fruit production. I think there's a good case for that. We should not only do. We have to be mindful of the environmental consequences of that. We also have to put indigenous governance and community empowerment at the center of that. So how then do we go forward to develop agriculture in the North but preserve the environment of the boreal forest prevent the release of carbon dioxide? Prevent the loss of biodiversity pollution of the waters and the cultural impacts of the people who live there. How do we do it? All not not not a simple answer to that question. Of course I think where we have to put our energy though is in terms of what I might call a process where northern communities can be leading that conversation and that we would create a participatory process to imagine what kinds of food production opportunities might be culturally and environmentally appropriate. As opposed to just assuming that you know private sector will will do that or that. Landowners will sort of one piece at a time just sort of slowly chip away and push north as as the environment changes. I think that would be a more reactive way. And I think by by being more participatory and deliberative and putting northern communities at the center guided by principles of sustainable development and things like that we can We can be much more proactive. About how how this this process can unfold just one last thing if we do successfully turn the North into agricultural land. What impact could that have on feeding growing world population? So I think I think it could be significant The world faces a significant challenge of our population is growing and many people say that we're going to need globally t seventy percent more food by twenty fifty twenty sixty just to keep up with population growth at the same time. Climate change is going to make some of our current very productive areas less productive. So I think looking into the future. We need to be as a global society thinking about all the possible ways we have of producing food in an efficient way and I think that the fact that The climate is warming and the creates new opportunities in the north to do food production. I just WanNa make sure that we do it. In a way that puts indigenous issues northern community issues that whole raft of social issues at the forefront and we do it in an environmentally mindful way. So we don't simply just take A southern form of agriculture that then results in boreal forests being cleared wetlands being drained soybean fields being put in for a few years but while we exhaust a thin soil and emit a lot of carbon into the atmosphere is result that that would be the terrible scenario but I think that with the the sort of more empowerment participatory sustainable development approach leading the way. We can do this in a way. That's responsible Dr Frazier. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Dr Evan. Fraser is the director of the Food Institute at the University of Wealth today another milestone. The New Horizons spacecraft passed right by Pluto in two Thousand Fifteen Nastase. New Horizons probe accomplished its primary mission by doing close fly by Pluto providing us with spectacular pictures of the Dwarf Planet but with gas still in the tank the scientists running the mission. We're looking forward to seeing objects beyond Pluto objects in the distant and frigid Kuyper belt beyond Pluto's orbit these would be small planet decimals leftover building blocks from the era of planetary formation in our solar system. Four billion years ago. Well last January. New Horizons had the first of those close encounters and sent back pictures of a strange dumbbell shaped object that since formerly named our cough the Paul Wotton Algonquin word for sky and this week at the meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Seattle mission. Scientists announced what they learned about. Eric off how? The solar systems building blocks themselves were built doctor Allen. Stern is the principal investigator on the new horizons. Probe not disturb welcome back to quirks and quarks thank you. It's great to be here now for those who perhaps didn't see the pictures of Eric off last January. Just describe what it's like. Well how did it look to you? Well Eric Roth is an object about twenty two miles thirty five kilometers long. That as you say shaped a little bit like a Dumbbell we technically call it. A contact binary which means that it's actually consists of two bodies. Formerly orbited one another But which are now touching. What kind of data was new horizons able to collect flew by our a cough? All data about aircraft were collected at the fly. But we've been sending it back over radio link. We took a lot of data many gigabits of data and so Because the spacecraft is so far away for billion miles in only has a thirty watt transmitter. The data rates are pretty slow. A new data comes to grind every week but in total. It'll take until some point late next year in two thousand twenty one to finish downloading all the data. But we've been able to already soon back all the juicy. A high resolution images Low resolution images the composition spectrum the color data so we know a tremendous amount about aircraft that we never knew from earth-based studies where it only appeared as a little faint point of light moving across star fields. What do you now know about how it came together? Well I are has a very interesting story to tell We can tell that it came together. The two lobes individually came together very gently. There's no evidence of a high speed collision there. No fractures for example. The object isn't quashed the way that you might expect or Severely DISTORTED IN ITS SHAPE. And so we do computer modeling and we run a grid of these models. Were very the impact. Speed the impact angle the density of the objects things like that. And from that. We've deduced that These two lobes came together in a collision that wasn't much faster than walking speed Which is really an important clue to their origin. While I'm trying to picture that how. How do you see that coming about these two objects floating around out in space? What they just come over. Come together and kiss or what? What did they do? Well something like that. But you know When objects orbit the Sun independently you know. They're moving at speeds of kilometers per second out there in the Kuiper belt and If these two objects were on very different orbits they would be expected to have collided at hundreds of meters per second or even faster Which would have shattered them blown to smithereens from the violence of the collision but instead the fact that they don't show any distortion Or signs of violence limits the collision speed as I said two meters per second and that in turn means that these two objects must have formed closely together. something that has long been theorized about but Really never had the solid evidence that we now from Erica off of actually happening and that's called a local collapse cloud and as a result of this fly by we. Now think that these these collapse clouds were common across at least the outer solar system and maybe the solar system in general when you say collapsed cloud. What do you mean by that? What we mean by that term is is that in many locations across the disk of material out of which the planets formed little individual condensation took place in which objects size dust motes up to larger bodies that were forming in these local collapse. Clouds came to gather gently to build up larger objects. Like air cough. Which you know. It's the size of a city like Toronto when you say Cloud Collapse. I'm thinking of Water clouds here on earth. Where very tiny particles of water coalesced together and form bigger drops form raindrops yes. This is a different process than the way that rain forms and a terrestrial cloud But if you think of a diffuse swarm as a cloud and it collapsing to its center to form one or two dominated objects out of all of the little bits and pieces that were originally in the cloud. You've probably follow what I'm getting at. Okay so then how does that then Fill in the picture of how they grew or some of them grew into planets. Well This is a very important question. You're asking when we observe these discs of material around young stars. We see the dust in the gas and when we look around older stars we see finished. Solar systems with much larger bodies The size of planets. The question is how do we connect those dots of course and that's why we sent new horizons to the Clipper Belt because the Kuiper belt being far from the sun and very cold far from intense radiation sources and in a pretty benign environment collision only preserves the best record Objects like Eric off from everything. We know are the least modified objects in the solar system in other words. They're the they're the best evidence for what things were like when they first formed In order to go from dust motes all the way up to the size of planets. These objects have to go through all the intermediate sizes By a creating material and Eric off at its is Which is tiny as I said about the size of a city not the size of a planet at all is right in the sweet spot for the objects we call building blocks of planets or planet symbols and so what we found out is how these building blocks formed that they form to this cloud collapsed process and essentially explains the early stages of planet formation. So does this suggest that perhaps our solar system came together gently instead of violently. Well we know that there were also violent collisions later in the stages of planet formation For example the collision that formed the Earth's moon but in the early stages of planet formation. When you want Objects the size of rocks and boulders and then buildings and then still larger things to actually come together in a way that that there's a Chretien and there is that objects grow It's clear that it had to be a gentle process so what's next for new horizon because the spacecraft is capable of flying on for fifteen or twenty more years We we're starting search for other fly by targets and that will begin this summer It may take several years but our ambition is is to find another and fly very close to another body Much farther out. Even the Eric off and perhaps be surprised to see that it's different again. Well that's what nature does you know. It surprises US every time we go to new types of bodies or new places in the solar system. I just think that it's Spectacular that we humans invented the technology to be able to really go and investigate these places and learn about our origins Than how the earth came to be and the other planets of our solar system. Dr Stern thank you very much for your time. Thank you Dr Allan. Stern is the principal investigator on the new horizons probe. He's a planetary scientist and associate vice president of the Space Science and Engineering Division at Southwest Research Institute in Boulder Colorado. The origin of flight is one of the most fascinating questions in evolution. Birds do it. Bees and other insects do it. And that's do it. We've learned a lot about the adaptations that have made flight possible things like light bones powerful flight muscles feathers in birds wing membranes made of strong thin skin in bats but one thing that we didn't realize how do we volve in order to enable flight was. Poop a new study biologist. Dr Hollywood center colleagues has made the surprising discovery that to modern flying animals. Batson birds don't just have wings in common. Their digestive ecosystem is also extremely similar and this suggests that evolution for flight also seems to favor a particular way to eat and excrete Dr. Lots did her research as an associate at Chicago's Field Museum. I welcomed quirks and quarks. Hey thank you for having me. So how did you discover the bats and birds have this peculiar similarity Well so One of the kind of interesting questions we thought about was do animals have convergent. Lifestyles share convergent microbiomes. In other words to animals such as bats birds that both fly maybe shares similar features in their guts known. You say microbiome. You're talking all bacteria that help us digest food and our guts exactly In humans we have lots of bacteria that help us digest and break down the food we eat and Release nutrients so that we can absorb those into our systems and many animals do the same thing. So how do you go about studying the microbiomes of birds and bats? I guess you gotTa get right in there so I have spent a lot of time in the field where we are collecting animals in different types of traps and miss nets and things we call them and we allow them to defecate in a bag. Or if we're collecting museums we will Take the whole animal. Induce THEM DISSECTIONS FROM THERE. We collect fecal material Which we take back to the lab and then apply genetic and molecular methods to get the genetic makeup of the bacteria in the sample. So much poop did you have to gather to get a lot of seventy allied and in so samples that were included. This study at least Contributed by my team involve over four hundred bats from East Africa as well as is nearly four hundred birds from southern Africa and so it was quite a large number of individuals from which we elected poop quite an effort ranging from grasslands and and Malawi to Some pretty interesting caves in northern Uganda. Well what is it that batch and birds having common? That's different from the rest of us. I guess the most striking thing about bats and birds is that they don't seem to have a consistent microbiome and so it's not. It's not really that they share a similar microbiome. It's more that the similarities between them are that their microbiome is a unpredictable And what I mean by that is if you look at other groups of mammals. You'll often find that closely. Related Species share more similar microbiomes When you get to looking at that you really don't see that and you don't see that embeds either short was similar about the Bachelor Birch. Because they're they're very different animals right right. They're very different animals. And so what you tend to find. Is that the bacteria dominating their GI tracks are pro bacteria for example and these are something that we think of kind of weedy bacteria so and that sort of suggests that these these animals are ingesting bacteria from the environment around them and that they may be passing through and more of transient fashion rather than being part of a stable core. Microbiome the what is it that batch and birds have in common. That's different from the rest of us. So what we've really seen with bats and birds is that they don't appear to have as strong of relief of a relationship with their microbiomes suggesting that they may not need them as much and this could be. Due to many different reasons so we see relatively lower richness in the number of species that are present in the gut. What like this have to do with the evolution of flight. Well the load that we carry around in our gut. Bacterial load does take up space than it does take up resources from the host although we do receive benefits from it it still requires energy expenditure on our part you can imagine that if you are trying to sustain powered flight you. WanNa to trim down as much as you can and you may not want to carry around any excess baggage. So this may include reducing the microbial. Load that you're carrying in your gut physiological adaptations that we know both bats and birds share our our shortened gastrointestinal tracts So the transit time of food from the time they eat it to the time they excrete it As much shorter presumably that that allows them to get the nutrients quickly and and fly without carrying around extra weight and both the Bachelor Birds. Have this This lesson microbiome limb. Yeah that's what we're seeing In terms of the microbial richness. Definitely well. Well we've been reporting a lot on this program about how important the Gut microbiome is. I mean it's it. I digestion general health so our bats and birds able to compensate for not having such a rich gut bacteria. That's a really good question and that is sort of the next steps that we need to take to understand how they're able to do this. We don't know We do know as I mentioned that. They have some physiological adaptations such as Well the shortened guy is one z logical adaptation presumably to aid with flight but they also exhibit increased pariser absorption of nutrients which is another way of taking up nutrients. There are some research to suggest that the bats in insectivores birds produce enzymes themselves. It can help break down insect Keaton and so if the hosts are able to produce their own enzymes to get the nutrients that they need. They may not require bacteria to to achieve the same goal. Well Bunch and birds are distantly related. So what does this study? Say about The connection that you found between them well in this example. We're looking at two. Convergent evolved lineages so Bats and birds are not each other's closest relatives but they've convergency evolved the ability to sustain powered flight. And and so what we're seeing. Is that the adaptations involving. The microbiome have also apparently converged and what was driving that. We're we're hypothesizing that it was flight a home the evolution of flight. What does this say to you when evolution finds one solution that works like in this case have a shorter digestive tract and less microbes? So that you lighten your load and you can fly better but apply that over more than one. Species that are only distantly related. I think it's a beautiful example of how evolution is often very parsimonious and you see similar solutions to similar problems emerging over evolutionary time. This is a very nice example of that. We think. Let's thank you very much for your time. Thank you Dr Holly. Lunch is currently a visiting postdoctoral researcher at Cornell University. Hi I'm dame plan for the last decade I've been a newspaper reporter and lately I'm just finding it hard to keep up with the news as of today. Simple possession of marijuana is no longer illegal. It can be hard to make sense of things. Investigators spent nine hours in the consulate. Severence will matter. I want to change that. At least a little. Join me weekdays at six. Am for front burner at daily podcast from ABC News. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to quirks and quarks from CBC radio. We hope you're enjoying the show. And we'd like to remind you that there are dozens of other podcasts available from the CBC so download the CBC. Listen Up and check out some of them. You won't be disappointed. We often talk to scientists who turned a passion like staring up into the night sky collecting rocks or waiting through streams into a successful career in scientific research. Many try to that same passion in others but few are as committed to this as Conservation Biologist Andrea Reed Reeds. Research focuses on stressed fisheries and fish. Her work is in understanding how to maintain sustainable fisheries and the communities. They support in her young career. She's traveled around the globe in her research including East Africa. Southeast Asia and the Pacific northwest and read wants to pull together between her area of study her indigenous roots and her passion to pass knowledge and expertise onto others especially young women on completion of her. Phd In biology at Carleton University in Ottawa. This year read. We'll take up an exciting new position at the University of British Columbia Misread. Welcome back to quirks and quarks. Thanks so much for having me back Bob. That's great to be here now when we first met you back in two thousand thirteen. We talked about your work. Studying Cyclic. Fish in Lake Victoria in Africa. It seems like you've been around every wet place in the world since then let me Tell me the range of things you've been studying since then. I've been working on fish and fisheries issues the world over Since twenty thirteen Since then I've gotten the privilege to work in the Philippines and Indonesia where I've been working on the aquarium trade. Tracing the journey that those fish make from reefs in the Indo Pacific To aquaria in the United States. How they get taken from those reefs put into boxes and bags and transported from one side of the world to the other to sit in. Maybe your dentist office or or maybe your home while you're finishing up your soon you'll be taking up a position at the University of British Columbia. Tell me what you'll be doing there. Yes in January. Twenty twenty one so in a year from now. I'll be joining the Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries where I will chair their new indigenous fisheries research unit. There I will be doing a great many things Teaching mentoring students and primarily leading research on culturally significant fish and fisheries. This is going to on first nations fisheries in British Columbia but also expand to other communities across Canada and still maintain those relationships around the world. so. I hope that I have both local and a global focus as I've as I've done throughout my career. Well why is being part of an indigenous fisheries unit important to you? Well for me I I belong to the nickel first nation Which sits at the base of the Alaska Panhandle? I grew up knowing about this part of my heritage but I grew up quite far from it. I was raised by my non-native mum on Prince Edward Island and I had a wonderful childhood there. And I heard you know kind of stories and new pieces of my family's history on my father's side but due to many reasons in part and legacies from the residential school system and the sixties scoop. My father didn't grow up in that community or in that culture he didn't have access to the language and the people and by proxy. Nor did I am so kind of like my father? I only came back to that community and adulthood and through my research through my science. I've actually reestablished to these great connections to community members to to family members Getting to discover new cousins. New AUNTIES New DVD's scored grandmother So it's been quite the journey. What's the connection between indigenous knowledge and scientific knowledge when it comes to things like fisheries well our fisheries like many of our ecosystems around the world are truly in crisis and in order to solve a lot of the problems that that are facing these systems? We need all of the best tools available at our disposal. Not just those that are derived from from Western scientific practice. There are other ways of looking at the world. Other ways of finding solutions and indigenous knowledge provides a wealth of long standing knowledge of the systems Indigenous peoples in this country have managed fish and fisheries sustainably for Millennia. And surely those have lessons to bear on what we're doing today so a big part of my work centers on trying to room for indigenous ways of knowing indigenous ways of being. Can you give me an example of where? There's been a crossover from indigenous traditional knowledge to sites sure there was actually a great example that was featured on the six o'clock news the other night Talking about this principle called to I'd seeing when Chisholm magma concept of bridging learning to see from one I with the strengths of indigenous knowledge is and ways of knowing learning to see from the other I with Western Strengths and knowledge is and learning to use. Both those is together for the benefit of all. This is a concept that's been Elucidated in the literature by Magma Elder Albert Marshall and what was featured in the news the other day was looking at The oil derived from from birchbark part of the magma cultural tradition and how that can be used to treat ECZEMA and now they're working with researchers at Cape Breton University to try to synthesize those oils and bringing together those indigenous knowledge systems with Western approaches and trying to find solutions that can benefit a lot of a lot of people indigenous and non-indigenous. What other issues on the West Coast with fisheries? Are you hoping to take on the future Well I hope to continue to work on Pacific Salmon on Lukin which are critical fish on the west coast that now the last stronghold is in the Nass River valley the home of the nation and I want to work hard to continue to protect fish like that that underpin societies and cultures including my own. One of the issues here is Like the role of fish farms. There's sort of debates about whether or not. They should even be happening. Yeah it's a and it's a really important question. Part of my work does look at. How multiple threats in the environment is affecting our salmon as they move through they start out in lakes and rivers and work their way to the Ocean. And then back again. So they're moving through this landscape. That is filled with different threats. So it's hard to adapt when you're in an ever changing environment and crucially fish farms as you asked about are in really important locations for Juvenile Salmon and return adult migrants coming home to their needle streams and there are risks involved in that. And it's something that I would be keen to work on in the future My work now does look At the role of disease in the ability for fish to make it back to their spawning grounds but that work is very much still under progress with now concrete results to share at this time. Okay well what are some of the ways that you plan to give back to the community on the West Coast even though you didn't actually grow up there? Well the community on the West Coast. The Knicks clinician has supported my education and my research for a good long time. They financially backed my undergraduate my masters and into my PhD and they've really opened the door for research partnerships there. They've they've been a yeah along standing support for me so giving back to community has been a really central ambition in my work but I very much do this work in concert with community. So it's all about building. Reciprocity in in every way that I can so in my research that looks like involving community members through every step of the process making sure everyone's on the same page and doing work in a good way and together but a big part of my passion is in inspiring youth to get involved in science the natural world being the future stewards of fish and fisheries and to that end I lead annual science camps in my nation that engage youth of all ages. Mostly seven to seventeen is generally what we what we get out there on the water we get them looking at fish we get them on boats into parts of the territory that they otherwise don't have access to learning different tools but we also bringing elders that there's a language and cultural knowledge transmission component to these camps as well so these camps really try to embody that notion of two. I'd seeing of bringing these two worlds together so that these young minds can can have the strengths of both as they tackle our future problems. Now you've taken it further just beyond disconnection to an organization called Ripe Perria. That's right. Yeah so ripe. Area is a not for profit organization that the holidays got its charitable status thinking corporations Canada And it is an organization that I've co founded with two of my colleagues through the National Geographic Society allow Hannah and Michaela Wujek and this organization centers on connecting youth with science on the water. We have some friends that lead these river expeditions and they realized that on all of these trips that they've been leading with tourists and youth. Everyone would be asking about. What are these fish in the water? Or how is that? Damn Apac impacting this system. Or what is this tree on the riverbank? And they weren't able to answer those questions and they so they started inviting US specifically my co-founder delays out on these trips to be a science guide and we really recognized that as a growing need that there isn't really another organization out there that connects all of these different elements together and so that that's been our ambition. We had our first expedition last summer where. We took ten indigenous and non-indigenous Female identifying youth from the Ottawa and Montreal areas an amazing team of young women and they joined us for a week long canoe. Camping expedition in the Plus on Blonde Regional Park and the whole trip was focused on learning the fundamentals of freshwater science through both that scientific and Indigenous Knowledge Lens. The wise giving this outdoor experienced a young women so important to you women are historically and can temporarily very underrepresented in science fields and technology engineering mathematics architecture. You name it and we really think that this is an excellent way to have young women exposed to female leaders in science. Rarely do youth get to you. Know ask a scientist any question off the top of their head in this way they get to spend a whole week learning directly from us on the topics that were studying. And so we think that this is a fabulous way to to expose them to science indigenous knowledge and also all kinds of different things to we we build modules on different forms of technology. That can help us know more about the environment. We USE DRONES. Underwater ro visas we also use those in a storytelling capacity and give them the basics of Photography One oh one in storytelling one on one because getting our messages out into the world as scientists have really key part of our role boy. So you're going beyond just. Let's do a canoe trip. You're actually bringing scientific instruments. And the scientific process out into the wilderness absolutely microscopes and all. What reaction have you had the people they have been so enthusiastic So articulate in sharing their passion about this we'll be having them connect with future groups and really trying to build something from the ground up with with all of these young women in Canada. Now I know that you're also part of another group of women scientists to be honored in a few months. Tell me about Canadian women on the water. So we are a group of National Geographic explorers. That are all Canadian based Working on different issues for Canadian waters be they freshwater or marine environments and the National Geographic. Society is invited US down to their headquarters in Washington. Dc where they have these alive monthly events that are happy hours socials featuring National Geographic explorers. And they've invited us down to really help bring this narrative around protecting Canadian freshwater's but freshwater's globally of course To these members of the of the public who who will be in attendance sharing knowledge seems to be an important theme in your life. Why is that? I think that I've been very privileged position Throughout my career and I think increasingly as I move into these spaces and reconnect with my own routes and that I find a space for myself in my indigenous community in that I can claim that part of my heritage that I wasn't able to. I really see the very important role of knowledge keepers. I'm not there yet I. We'll take a lifetime to get to that point. But really see a role for myself as being knowledged transmitter. And a a conduit to have the knowledge of generations past move through me as I try to inspire that that next generation forthcoming a study that I lead in two thousand. Eighteen centered on indigenous elders across British Columbia about their knowledge of Pacific Salmon or the focus of my doctoral research and just getting to spend time with all of these people who are sharing with me not just the knowledge that they have accrued in their lifetime but often referencing the knowledge that was passed down to them from their parents and their parents parents and so on it really is a privilege and with that privilege comes a great deal of responsibility. So that's really what I'm trying to do in my work. We hear so much about the collapse of fisheries Pollution Plastics in the water. And all that. How optimistic are you that incorporating indigenous knowledge involving young people by getting them out onto the waters can actually make a difference? I think that spending time with youth and seeing their enthusiasm and their ability uptake this information and to act on it and to change their behaviors as a result. I think that shows a lot of promise for our future. I want to be optimistic. But it's definitely with a great deal of caution as well as read. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you a pleasure to be here. Andrea read is currently a PhD candidate at Carleton University in Ottawa. And a National Geographic Explorer. Next year she will take up the position of Assistant. Professor at the University of British Columbia's Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries and share their new indigenous fisheries research unit and cleaning. Hospital services is a vital but extremely difficult job. The problem is when bacteria attached to a surface like hospital bed rails or medical equipment they formed communities and this can create a slimy sticky layer called a biofilm kind a biological fortress for the bacteria that can protect microbes from scrubbing soaps and disinfectants. I keep talking to a lot of clinical colleagues. They keep mentioning that. This is a big problem. Sometimes a sink in a hospital get so contaminated that they need to completely remove a sink and then put a brand new one. That's Dr Tuohy Dr an assistant professor of Biomedical Engineering at McMaster University in Hamilton Ontario. He and his colleagues have developed a way to grapple with the problem. They're fighting sticky bacteria with a super slick nonstick surface and they took their inspiration from one of the slippery surfaces in nature. The leaf of the Lotus plant. Dr Are Welcome to the program. Thank you first of all. What made you look into the Lotus Leaf for inspiration in creating this nonstick surface. Lotus leaf or lotus effect is a well-known concept scientists. Where it has these self cleaning properties the surface of the Lotus Leaf. If you've seen in some videos you can youtube that and find that as well you see when dropped of rain calms onto the surf side. The leave it actually balances back. It doesn't like the surface and it just keeps even S- cleaning what what sort of dirt or or particles are on that surface and then taking it out so we looked into the structure Lotus leaf. And they're very very small scale and we tried to get inspiration from that and develop a coating. That could kinda perform the same way as chief does. So you're saying that when the water drops at the lowest leave the they what they beat up. And then you back if if I WANNA put it in a simple way hume that you're in a networking event and you see somebody. Who's very talkative and energetic. Can you just go to talk to that person? That's a surface that you like to interact with on the other hand. If you feel like somebody doesn't have that much energy or is not talkative. You tend not to talk to that person and stay away the same way. The droplet behaves here and when it sees that the surface energy energy which we define it as the intermodal clerk bonds on that surface is not enough or good enough for that droplets water. They tend to stick together rather than attaching to that surface. We'll take me down to the surface of a lotus leaf. What's it look like? It's to repel water yet on the Lotus Leaf. You have two main structures. We have these micron sizes structure so micron as tended to minus six meters. It's almost an average ten times smaller than the human hair. And we have these micro structures and then on top of that we have these nanostructures so Nanno is both towels and times smaller than a human hair. If I want to give you a good example to imagine what's happening. Imagine a landscape with Rolling Hills. Those hills could be those micro structures that we have on the low to sleep surface and then as human this landscape we have some plant. Some trees those trees are nanostructures. We have on the low to Steve and then the sales on the lettuce leaf also produced a VACs like substance that gives it kind of a slippery property to the surface. We actually got inspiration from this. We didn't exactly mimic the Lotus Leaf. So we have these Rolling Hills and then we have the trees on that hill and then we also add chemistry there. The chemistry ad is like the flowers on top of those freeze but the chemistry we add there. Which is the fluorinated? Chemistry fluorinated surfaces are like Teflon surfaces. We use in cookware at home so the combination of the floor and the tree and the hills. There creates this property on the surface that repels the water. But what exactly happens in the scientific level? Is that with this? Topography be maximize air pockets on that surface. Then the droplets water comes onto that surface. There's some air pockets that get trapped between the droplet and the surface and that air pockets. Minimizes the context the droplets with the surface and basically innova makes it bounce back or get repelled from that surface all I see so it'd be like the water would be riding along on the tops of the trees but not the ground. Exactly exactly the other thing. I'm thinking about going back to your crowd. Analogy is a during rock concerts. You know and the crowds up close to the stage and the performances throws themselves out into the crowd and they're carried along exactly. That's that's a good example. Yeah so the material that you've created that's imitating the Lotus Leaf. Tell me what it looks like so we went with something that could be easily applied so we went with some Wraps that we use at home to store food or to use them for food packaging and these are made of simple plastic very cheap wraps on bought them commercially. Nba applied the coating on those and the other advantage with. These wraps is that they're flexible. So it allows you to wrap them around. Doorknobs bit settings a stethoscope pan and so on and so forth so assumed the role comes and goes through different solutions and then at the end with this specific case that we have we drink them so you can use the simple hairdryer and then when you heat it up it just strengths on the object and then it's basically attach so does your coated plastic prevent the bacteria from sticking to it like one hundred percent. We've tested this with three different types of bacteria so far and I would say that it prevents with ninety percent but also to keep in mind that we want to prevent that biofilm formation here. That's the key here. And that's the community of bacteria so you might have couple of them attaching to the surface but compared to those other surfaces this is significantly lower in a way that we are confident that it wouldn't contaminate the next person as they come in touch with that surface. So where do you see your Superbug resistant plastic being used. I will say two main areas that we think there would be big impact. Your is on food in St either. Through the food production chain slaughterhouses kitchen counters and the packaging itself and the second one is high risk areas mainly in the hospitals boy. We're going to have a plastic wrapped world that's another concern and and to be honest. We do not want US plastics to be more environmental friendly. But as you know. These plastics are currently used in any way in our industry but we have a structure. Here we have this topography and it doesn't have to necessarily remain on a plastic. It could be transferred on food or stainless steel or any other You know recyclable material. That we might want to have in the future did. Thank you very much for your time. Thanks Bob it was pleasure Dr Tuohy. Dr Is an assistant professor in the McMaster University School of Biomedical Engineering as well as a member of the university's Institute for Infectious Disease Research in West and with that it's time for another quirks and quarks question. This week's question comes to us from Doug Archer on salt spring in British Columbia. He asks do any other. Planets in our solar system have offset poles thus giving them seasons. And here's the answer. Hi My name is Cayo talent. And I'm a PhD candidate in the Department of Physics and Atmospheric Science at Dalhousie University in Halifax Nova Scotia. The question of seasons on other planets is an interesting one but the term offset polls generally refers to the fact that the magnetic geographic north polls are not in the same location which does not affect seasons what does affect seasons is the tilt in the planet's rotational axis which goes through the geographic poles. All planets in our solar system had such a tilt except for mercury whose tilt is so small it is virtually zero and therefore does not have traditional seasons so the degree of the tilt is important as another example urine is tilted by ninety eight degrees compared to Earth's twenty three point five meaning it's axis of rotation is almost parallel to its orbital plane on top of this takes your in his eighty four earth years to orbit the Sun So each season last twenty one years despite the fact that you're in his head seasons the temperature is pretty constant at a frigid minus two hundred and twenty degrees Celsius changing only a couple of degrees between summer and winter in addition to the tilt the accent or how awful the planets orbit around the sun is plays a role in seasons to Mars. Hasn't actual tilt of twenty five degrees very close to Earth's it seasons should therefore be very similar to our own but Earth's orbit around the sun is nearly circular whereas Mars is very elliptical when Mars is at its furthest from the Sun. It receives significantly less radiation and also moves more slowly along. Its orbit this coincides with its northern summer which is therefore more moderate in temperature and longer lasting than the southern summer which occurs when Mars is at its closest to the Sun. During a southern summer temperatures may reach. Us highest thirty degrees Celsius a nice hot day during the northern summer however it rarely gets warmer than minus twenty degrees and in the winter it can get as cold as minus one hundred and twenty five degrees so there are a number of factors that affect the seasons and the temperatures reached on planets in our solar system. Kaya Rhode Island is a graduate student in the Physics Department at Dalhousie University in Halifax. And that's it for this week's edition of corks and courts if you'd like to get in touch with US or send us a question. Our email is quirks at CBC DOT CA or. Just go to the contact link on our web page and get to our webpage goto CBC DOT CA slash quirks. Where you can subscribe to our podcast. Listen to our audio archives or read my latest blog you can follow us on twitter and facebook at CBC quirks you can also get us on the CBC. Listen Up. It's free from the APP store or Google play works in corpses produced by Amanda Berkowitz Sonya Biting and Mark Crawley. Our senior producer. Is Jim Lebanon's? I'm Bob McDonald. Thanks for listening for more. Cbc PODCASTS GO TO CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.

Canada scientist US New Horizons Eric Roth Lotus Leaf Dr Fraser British Columbia Ottawa CBC Dr Evan marijuana Dr Stern reporter Bob University of wealth
Warming Climate Implies More Flies--and Disease

60-Second Science

02:18 min | 2 years ago

Warming Climate Implies More Flies--and Disease

"This is science Americans. Sixty seconds science. I'm Christopher Dodd Jatta. A recent analysis predicts that forty percent of the world insect species could go extinct within a couple of decades, the highest death tolls could be among butterflies, Mods bees and dunk Beatles. Conspicuously absent from that list, though, are the house flies because they may actually do better in a hotter world under a warming scenario. You would have a larger fly population, which is able to hang around for a longer period of time, Amy Greer, an epidemiologist and mathematical model at the university of wealth in Ontario. She says flies are also more active when it's warm meaning more chances to land on your picnic, dips Greer student Melanie cousins now a doctoral candidate at the university of Waterloo explains the effect on us what this increase in five population and fly activity. This may lead to more transmission of Camelback better the common foodborne ill. Illness like the flies fluctuates with the seasons. So with warmer temperatures Campbell after will be able to replicate more efficiently. Cousins modeled, both the insect and bacterial trends under different global warming scenarios and found that the uptick and fly population numbers did not matter much. But if warming truly does increase flack tippety, then can't blowback for cases in the Antero Canada area could more than double with a moderate four degree Fahrenheit rise in temperature by twenty eighty the results are in the journal Royal Society opened science in these conclusions. Do come with many caveats, for instance, the data is generated by a mathematical model saying this is at least in theory possible. But it does not take into account a possible increase in fly predators, for example. And the researchers haven't actually tested flies landing on food to see if they're dropping off bacteria, and while it has been shown in past studies that flies can carry campylobacter. It's unclear whether warming temperatures might affect their ability to do so still. The researchers themselves are taking precautions I am a little bit more paranoid about it. Personally. I bought one of those fly screens for picnics to go over the bulls. Thanks for listening for scientific American sixty seconds science. I'm Christopher Don. Yata?

Amy Greer Melanie cousins Christopher Dodd Jatta Christopher Don Antero Canada university of Waterloo bulls university of wealth Royal Society Ontario Sixty seconds forty percent sixty seconds four degree
How Sesame Street reflected Canada to itself

The Current

07:04 min | 1 year ago

How Sesame Street reflected Canada to itself

"This is a CBC podcast. Hi Laura Lynch this is a podcast from the December thirty thirty first edition of the current when you guys junket completely different in mind. Where's all the junk in the trash? Uh Sorry Oscar. There's no trash we're wondering. What is your happiest memory on Sesame Street happiest Memory Phooey you know? You're talking to Oscar. It is hard to imagine. But Sesame Street turned fifty last month. The conic television show started out as an educational tool well for children in the United States. But it's now seen in more than one hundred and forty countries in Canada. Kids and their parents could catch Ernie and Bert the Cookie Gi Monster elmo and Oscar the grow CH- on US stations over many years. They watched sesame park. It's Canadian spin off. My parents didn't let us watch a lot of what they called junk. TV But we could watch all. We wanted educational television so I watched a lot of sesame street was a child. My Name's Matthew. Hey I'm Fr- CAIN history at the University of wealth. I wanted to study sesame street because thinking back on my childhood. Sesame Street is one of the programs I can remember as having had segments that introduced me to ideas about Oh Canada. Oh they're here. I am in my moved favorite place in the world the Forest Ou and depending what station you would watch would get different versions so the American version had all the Spanish language material whereas the Canadian won a had a lot of material about counting in in French and French language content was one of the main things I definitely remember was how much French there was phonetic but also aspects of the show that had Canadians symbols and every maple leaf has the same number of points. Isn't that amazing. How do you know what else has a maple leaf on it? The Canadian flag. It's got a maple leaf on it. I remember the language learning owning segments. That were part of it. I remember segments that redoubt Canadian culture and Canadian symbols and my research more broadly beyond this particular project is about the ways in which governments educators and other actors have tried to craft new is in ways of thinking about Canada and shaping Canadian culture and Sesame Street was one of the programs that I had quite explicitly Canadian identity type messaging in what it was doing. I was going back through old old youtube clips and there was one. I found that I had very strong memories of And it involves A segment that is about the Canadian quarter on a quarter quarter. Caribou quarter has a Caribou on it on the quarter has a Caribou mechanical. Says that's me of and that just sticks in my brain so and I think I like it because it's such an explicitly Canadian segment. It's got refundable jingle that goes along to along with it and it's very emblematic of Canadian symbols and that Latte dimension of the program but Dona where the border on the alphabet of course is very important and there was definitely discussion. That happened among the curriculum committee. That was attached the program about how they wanted to deal with the alphabet and so the importance of the letters said was certainly central those discussion. Why the and it seems kind of funny to think about it but this is something that when I talked this project with friends that were like? Oh Yeah I watch sesame street as a as as a child. And that's why I used the letter Z. Because they're just that little bit older than I am washed the US version of the show so they learn their letters with a he does e instead of a to Z exposed. To one of the things. That's really interesting. About sesame. Street is just how much educational research went into both the original American conversion at the Children's television workshop and then the Canadian version that had a curriculum team involving people from McGill Boise consulting on all the different aspects of the content content and one of the themes. They really wanted to emphasize beyond language. Learning which was very central was to expose Canadians. Two different ways. That Canadian children lived so one. The first set of segments they produced was a series of little vignettes where they sent out a film crews across the country film Canadian children living in different environments so that included a young girl who the done ranch now Berta Little boy who were Lived on maritime fishing community and this one of thinks I thought was interesting because it was so early on Young indigenous boy lived on reserve in Manitoba. The clip apparently showed him traveling to school everyday by boat because that was how oh he had had to commute effectively to go to school so they were interested in showing Canadians living in different ways. The underlying message that we're trying to get across was that we are different sprint. But we're all still we're all still part of the broader shared humanity this shared community. But did they want to show that there were different ways that you could that you could be going up. So how would I want to say happy birthday to sesame street. I think what I'd want to say is A gigantic thank you for having done so much to educate multiple generations of children including ones. That were really vulnerable to spread it literacy to spread numeracy To just provide such an entertaining and enjoyable way of learning for children that not only their target market preschoolers would enjoy them but older siblings and parents would enjoy them And they have done the done so well that it's indelibly remarked in in brains like mine where I will now spend an even going through youtube looking back on old classic segments of the show and enjoying stodgy glow as I do so so that would be a really a gigantic. Thank you to Sesame Street On this occasion of their fiftieth birthday. Matthew Heyday is a history professor. At the University of wealth we first aired that segment in November to Mark Sesame Street's fiftieth anniversary for more C._B._C.. PODCASTS GO C._B._C.. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.

sesame park United States Canada University of wealth Oscar Laura Lynch Oh Canada youtube Fr- CAIN Forest Ou Matthew Heyday Berta Little Dona McGill Boise professor Ernie Manitoba Bert
The Spark Guide To Life, Episode Four: Groceries!

Spark from CBC Radio

54:38 min | 1 year ago

The Spark Guide To Life, Episode Four: Groceries!

"This is a C._B._C. podcast. I'm trying to winter. It's almost a little blah. Welcome to chosen family every second week we talk about art sexuality and identity with a special guest usually queer but not always i. I completely struggled coming out to my parents as a comedian being in the entertainment industry for a Middle Eastern people is unheard of affecting change requires people to shake it up. Listen to chosen family wherever you get your podcasts. What sign and are you by the way I'm in the area? Of course I love it hi. I'm Nora young welcome to our special summer series. The spark guide to life navigating are connected world. It's a collection of some of our favorite stories and topics from this past season from big picture perspectives tits to get through the day today the last week we looked at how data driven personalization is changing health like personalized nutritional advice based on your jeans and let alone with healthy eating and meal planning we also spent a lot of time walking down the aisle of the supermarket to get that food so on special this week. We're revisiting our special on grocery store tack once or twice a week. I do this go grocery store Rabah cards though through the photos aisles pickup peppers onions potatoes then you know bread milk eggs and then I wonder the aisles usually ending up with a bunch of stuff I never meant to buy it's is probably the same for you lots of got used to shopping online at least sometimes but groceries or something a lot of fuel we have to physically go to the store and pick up ourselves and until recently grocery stores hadn't changed that much music like the muffled announcements with price checks but that's changing as we've seen time and time again the tech industry is obsessed with disruption an industry that hasn't changed much since one thousand nine hundred seventy s is ripe for disruption option. You've probably seen the cell checkout lanes but now there are companies that make self-checkout carts since Amazon bought the high end chain whole foods in two thousand seventeen. They've started offering online orders to prime members and they've started building. Cashless Amazon goes doors where you just walk in grouch want and it gets charged your account. No checkout at all and Amazon isn't the only one trying to get in on delivering your groceries. There's INSTA- card grocery gateway in a buggy just to name a few so that's what we're going to spend all of this week's episode on the ways that technology is shaping grocery shopping and what that means for us aw at the University of wealth. There's a grocery store or at least it looks like a grocery store. We have cameras in every aisle. We've cameras over the checkouts. That's Mike von Maslov. You pick the topic that I'm always keen to talk about. Mike's a food economist honest so we can follow evaluate exactly where you go how you go on kind of a macro level so we can look at the flow through the grocery store. The shoppers also wear a strange looking headset and then we can get at the micro level go with the eye tracking glasses which are a pair of glasses attached to a computer that have a video camera that go out and sort of look at what you look at and a couple of monitors or cameras that follow your eye so that we can and get a real detailed idea of what you focus on what you fixate on and then we can evaluate Mites. Grocery store is actually a laboratory. It's called the food retail lab. You can see picks of at our website C._B._C. Dot C._a.. Slash spark the food retail lab is a small mock grocery store that allows us to explore how people behave in a grocery store without actually having them in a grocery store but it is a place where we can and modify all sorts of things and asked people to shop and what kinds of things are you trying to learn about well. When we opened the lab we had some very specific ideas and what's what's become obvious as we've moved forward is is the research we can do is limited? It'd only by our imaginations. The process that people go through when they shop really is to a food geek like me kind of interesting so we look at how packaging changes behavior we look at how positions change behavior were exploring <hes> how we present information to people <hes> we anticipate doing things like electronic pricing to see how that affects people's perceptions we have the ability to track what they look at. If somebody is buying <hes> cereal just as an example we can look at what they compare how many different products they look at what they look at on the box that they are choosing and then what they pick so we can get a really sort of a nuanced understanding of love their perceptions and their decision making process data collection of course is a huge part of online businesses. It's what's allows the kind of targeted marketing that companies like facebook and Google depend on so is the grocery sector starting to do ooh something similar in terms of data collection well. I think I think grocery stores are increasingly particularly with things like loyalty programs getting a better understanding of what it is we buy when we buy it. How much of our purchases <music> are habitual? How much of our purchases are impulse and so I think that allows grocery stores on your APP to give you a targeted promotion to give you a coupon that is relevant to something that they believe that you're interested interested in and I think increasingly although we probably haven't seen it a whole bunch yet but the technology exists that they can if you are walking down a specific? I'll in a store. They can pop up an ad until you well. You should think about this. You're walking by quiet. Here's something we can offer you that technology exists. It's probably getting used to to a certain degree but it's probably not being leveraged as much as it has its potential and will probably continue to see it grow if we're shopping online as an example grocery stores know exactly what we've bought before and in fact make it easy for us to by the same thing again as so if you're if you have an APP or you're doing it in an a computer interface just like the Amazon has always done it says not only if you bought this you might be interested in this but also here are the things that you bought before. Do you WanNa buy those things again that dramatically decreases your search costs as you go through that had interface and makes it easier it. It also makes means. It is less likely for you to make a purchase an impulse purchase because you'll just go by the things that are easy. You don't have to walk around the store. You don't have to walk by anything to go find it and and then you tend to by the same things over again for companies that sell products that are largely impulse. That's not necessarily good news for grocery stores that means the size of the basket may go down a little bit but the quality of our experience may go up a little bit because we don't have to look far or or for as long and it may mean in the long run that grocery stores have to simplify the live experience because customers have come to expect respect and so we may see a reconfiguration of grocery stores because of the online experience. Do you think that that amount of data collection does have or may have in the future and impact on the prices we pay in a sense that if my online online or real world grocery store knows that I buy popcorn every week regardless of what the price is. There's not really an incentive to give me a break on the price but if I only by cheese when the price falls the low certain point. Maybe they want to incentivize my purchase well I. I think a grocery stores will argue that that allows them to customize offering specifically to you that there has been some discussion in the past and I haven't seen any evidence for but that some online sellers changed the price not not only based on the inventory they have mobile but based on what they think the likelihood that is that you will buy it so as you say if I'm going to buy popcorn anyway. I'M NOT GONNA offer it to you as a special. That sort of behavior is clearly possible as they no more about us if if we're buying it every week regardless of price than they're unlikely maybe to give us a promotion. The grocery business is so competitive though and we are so inclined to promotions that my guess is that it to a significant degree grocery stores will use what they know about us to give us targeted offers for promotions on things that they think will keep us coming back the real key to profitability in the grocery. Business is the size basket and the ability to keep you coming back so I think grocery stores are always going to be very very careful in sort of doing those revenue management tactics where they try and maximize the mount. Get Out of you because of the risk they'll lose you so will they targeted things for sure. Will they have the capacity to say they buy that all the time. Don't give them that as a special they do for sure but by the same token they also run the risk of losing you if you have become I'm accustomed to see it on special on a regular basis. Traditional grocery stores are starting to see some real competition from Amazon and grocery delivery services for example. So how are they adapting to that well. I think we're seeing some changes in in grocery stores. I think we're seeing many of our traditional grocery stores offer. If not delivery at least you know click and collect where you can were you can go pick it up either at the grocery store or there are some places where where they will ship ship it to a depot because delivery is hard <hes> and you have to be home and delivery is also expensive so we've seen grocery stores put groceries at the end of the goal line as an example or in in the city of Toronto at at depth does in high density areas where condo dwellers can come down and pick up their groceries rather than go to the grocery store so I think we're seeing a real change in grocery stores responding to it. What I think is interesting? Interesting is we've also seen Amazon as they've gotten into the food business start to get into the bricks and mortar business in terms of food buying whole foods for an example and also looking at other ways to offer sort of bricks and mortar experience so again I think some customers will love the experience of being able to get delivery and and or doing click and collect dot having to walk through the store and going to pick it up and that's what Amazon offered and we're seeing many of the traditional grocers in Canada to the exact same thing but I think some customers and and really Canada's below ten percent of groceries are bought online so while we're seeing an increase we're still seeing many people stick with what they're comfortable with and what they like and so we're seeing as Amazon tries to grow its food business. Get into the bricks and mortar what I see. In the long run is that there will be many consumers who will like the hybrid experience who will buy hard goods or you know things that are canned or flower milk and some of those things online and maybe do a click and collect or a depot pickup backup and the things that they like to see evaluate and touch and squeeze and Apple Lettuce to look at it. They'll buy that live in store and so a store that offers both of those options is most likely to to maximize the sheriff wallet from that Customer. Are there any other technologically driven changes that you're seeing grocery stores that you're particularly interested in well. I think they're the there are some things that are being driven by pushes from technologies changes were seeing in grocery stores. We are seeing more and more choice in grocery stores. Today and many of us are overwhelmed with choice. Grocery stores are giving more choice not because each of us as individuals want more choice but because you want something different I'm from me and who wants something different from someone else and that means that when we walk up to some of these shelves were overwhelmed by the amount of choice we have and then if we can go online we can pick and choose the things we really like and then when we go back we don't have to look through that whole shelf again we can pick and choose the things we really like again. I think that that's going to lead to more people customer focus sections on grocery stores and moving away from the product focused sections to allow people to have a similar experience of easing that search cost because of the pressure that the reduced search costs from from the online experience gives and I'll give you a couple of examples. We've already seen an increase in the healthy eating section and many large grocery stores where we can see cereals and treats and condiments and things that could be in the traditional area for those products that have specific healthy attributes lower sugar organic or those sorts of things. That that kind of customer can go and find it easily. We also see in many grocery stores these international sections where again we can get many of the products we can get in the product focus section in there but they are narrower range of products for a specific kind of customer tumor. I think we're GONNA continue to see that kind of evolution as the stores balanced the need or the desire to get you to walk through as much of this store as possible with the the need to make it easier for us to find the things that we we're looking for in a way that will continue to have us walk through the grocery store. Mike thanks so much for your insights on this well. Thanks for the opportunity. I look forward to chatting again. Mike von Moscow is a food economist at the University of Wealth <music>. I'm Nora young and this is our summer series. The spark guy to life today on the show where revisiting our special in grocery store technology that first aired back in March one new and kind of controversial grocery store tack is these self checkout. Mike von Maso food economist at the University of wealth likes them for me. I personally like the self-checkout because I quite often find the people at checkout a little bit surly but that doesn't seem to be the majority opinion personally. I don't use them and I'm not the only only one back when this episode first aired in the Spring C._B._C.. News found that management at Shoppers Drug Mart stores were pushing staff to drive customers towards the self checkout lanes customers complain that using them make shoppers do the paid work of employees for free and itself off checkouts often. Don't seem to function properly. Is this where the bananas story is. Both yes please that's model and clear Elche. She's a lead researcher at the data and Society Research Institute. I was actually at a grocery store I I was you know checking out and it was a self checkout machine and you know I think I swiped a some bananas and I was sort of amazed because when I put the bananas on the scale immediately on the screen popped up you know bananas and their P._l._U. or whatever and I was like wow pretty pretty amazing like computer vision going on in this sort of you know like random self-checkout supermarket in in the middle of upstate New York and then of course something went wrong as it always does and the attendant who was nearby came over and helped me and I sort of mentioned to her how this thing is like a lot smarter than I thought thought. I can't believe it knew that I had bananas on here and she was like oh it didn't I thought you have bananas and I just put it in there right and that was amazing to me because for years as my no for my professional living you like I studied this stuff and I was quickly attributing sort of skill and ability and intelligence to this machine at the expense of this woman who who had actually sort of enabled torque after that particular experience Madeline Rotor report with fellow researcher Alexandra Montesquieu my name's Alexandria TESCO and I'm a researcher at the Dayton Society Research Institute their report called A I in context the Labor of integrating integrating new technologies is partially based on interviews with Grocery store workers in the Los Angeles area so if this self-checkout technology so often leads to frustration for shoppers and work by employees to help out. Why does it stick around? Here's model in again. I think it's a really complex question about like the specific sort of economics of the retail grocery retail sector and of course you know in this sort of low margins low profit margins industry like food retail grocery retail any sort of promise that they can get an edge. That's appealing and here's Alexandra. I think sunk cost is also partly factor because you kind the reconfigure the layout of stores to accommodate self-checkout machines they have to take out a conventional check stands in sort of rearrange a lot of shelving and things and as I said earlier like they do work up to a point so they do they do final certain number of shoppers through self-checkout which allows them to stop your people at any given time so in terms of doing what it says it does as far as attorney payroll that works so I think that's sort of part of the dynamic there <hes> Madeleine I mean what how much of this our reaction to not want to use technology or maybe I should say my reaction to not want to use technology comes from the fact that there is the sense that they actual human labor involved quickly becomes apparent as it doesn't really you know consistently. It doesn't seem to work properly. Somebody's always having to come over to you know to help us so this system that appears on the one on hand to this kind of magical automated thing quickly reveals itself in fact not to be that I mean I think that goes to Alexandra's point that this is automation sort of loosely put I would say this is sort of an automated interaction that is meant to be between the consumer and the machine but in facts doesn't end up working the way it's post to as you're saying and so there is this requirement for an attendant person to come in. I mean I just <music>. I'm not surprising to anyone because everyone knows it. Never it never works but I think this is. This is an interesting way to think about. What are the costs of innovation which may be? I don't go calculated or the get brushed over so that you know maybe there's payroll cuts up to a certain point but actually the people who are left are doing more work work now. They don't have to just help one person they have to help six people <hes> and so it ends up being the frontline workers who are sort of smoothing over technologies rough edges and making it a appear like it or at least not even making it appear because everyone knows that it doesn't quite work but making it actually work right and add to that <hes> something that we found interesting in our interviews was that it requires fire news for those skill sets that often it's the more experienced employees who are assigned to the self checkout lanes because there are a lot of skills like multitasking you know smoothing the nerves of irate shoppers when they see error messages there working people that we interviewed that learn to do basic mechanical repairs including this one guy who had previously had a career repairing office equipment and he used those skills to do things like getting the bills on stuck from the machines or sort the basic tweaks because management was often pretty reluctant to call in the repair purposing because that would take a whole time talking on the phone with I._T.. And so on and so forth you know this is precisely where maybe some of the skills the new skills that people are developing are specialized skills but they're not being compensated because they're not being recognized by anyone as skills or even as as necessary right because where I mean the managers don't want to technology and as consumers we just want to move on through and you know just get out. Get Out of the store as quickly as possible so you alluded to this Alexander vote. What kinds of things are employees doing behind the scenes to make self-checkout work? We compare it to sort of the role of traffic officer at a busy intersection because you're kind of basically reacting to a whole lot of social cues that people have where you know somebody is at the subject outstanding. They have a confused look on their face any no quickly to step in to do that on there's also spotty theft. There's some studies show that that is increased through self checkout lanes but that's also a tricky thing because has like you don't want to confront someone in it turns out that they just like confused by the machine <unk> bag at something so there's a lot of sort of complex interactions involved in actually a lot of the reason why hi frontline workers like to work in bursary in the cashier area is is the people like interacting with people chatting with them but with a self checkout kind of complicates things because you're you've you're being pulled in a million directions uh-huh actually something we were wondering sort of was a hypothesis that we went into our research <hes> with which was wondering whether frontline workers would be more responsible danceable for spotting theft and if they would be sort of held accountable for letting people sort of get away with theft if it was there knob to monitor but luckily turned out that was that was not the case at least in the stores we looked at it was just kind of looked at the cost of doing business so do we know overall what the impact on Labor has been. Arthur fewer cashiers working than there were not really so there are about three three point five million cashiers currently in the U._S.. In the number bruised since the arrival of self-checkout machines if kind of leveled out now it's kind of an open question what's going to happen with the newer retail. He tells technologies that sort of promised to eliminate the checkout process entirely like the example of Amazon go stores were. There's no actual moment where you pay you. Just go in grab the things go but if we we think of self-checkout machines sort of representative of a lot of the ways in which technologies are integrated into supermarket retail. I think it's fair to say that there are probably going to be configurations in work work in shifts in the ways that that workers time is used in a lot of public statements about retail tech companies typically say that systems like self-checkout or Amazon goes style checkout or in inventory Tori scanning robots three of workers time which condenser to be redirected to other necessary tasks storms but employers can also just choose simply cut hours and make fewer employees do more at work so that's not really inevitable outcome of automation. It's as a business decision and it's hard to predict what those decisions will be. So one sort of intervention that we propose with our research is to shift the sort of the concern in the conversation ran away from while are they're going to be no jobs left or are robots replacing all jobs but rather to say no the jobs. It's it's going to be more complex or academics that we have to say it was going to be more uh-huh and also there are going to be jobs. Maybe there maybe there will be fewer but there will certainly jobs will remain and so what we need to focus on is the quality and and the <unk> lived experience of jobs that remain as opposed to just focusing on this like dichotomy of job or no job. There's so much in between and that's actually where our attention needs to be focused in terms of protecting vulnerable workers. Thank you both for your thoughts on this problem. It was a pleasure talking. Thank you so much. Alexandra Montesquieu and Madeleine Claire Ellis are the researchers at the data and Society Research Institute in New York still ahead on the spark guide to life more ahead as we revisit our grocery stores special which I air in March as more and more grocery stores experiment with delivery services we ask how that's changing how we shop and what we buy plus can make you a little heartsick seeing all the plastic packaging on our food but what can you do about it. How about zero waste grocery store? That's coming up when spark continues nor young and this is our summer series the spark guy to life from your friends at C._B._C.. Radio Today on the show where revisiting our special on grocery store technology it first aired in March personal service of the farmer's whereas market Meat Department is one of its greatest attractions with extensive cutting rooms and staff of expect butchers deserve the finest of meats they expensive produce department offers a choice election of the freshest ron fruits and vegetables. Vegetables available for decades the routine of taking a car the grocery store and loading it up with week's worth of groceries has been standard operating procedure but a cities become more dense and fewer people own cars the idea of getting your groceries delivered delivered directly to your home is getting more popular there now plenty of services that will do your shopping for you. They'll even make substitutions is something you want isn't available just like you would if you were in the store no red peppers. They'll swap green peppers instead Patricia vetch Waldron is a retail marketing expert. She's also the founder and C._E._O.. Of Vision I A company that studies consumer trends and advises retailers. She says that although grocery delivery services are relative novelty here in Canada and the U._S.. This isn't the case in other parts of the world. They are primarily in Asia and some places in Europe particularly France in the U._K.. We're a little bit of laggards here in North America and what makes those areas different wise grocery delivery taken off there Rinat in other places a couple different things especially in Asia. You have a lot more of the population there that's borne on the net and they're used to ordering everything including groceries and food and meal Solutions Online. The other thing is often a question of population density. If you think about delivering food some of it is perishable fragile heavy bulky delivering some of this types of merchandises can be quite difficult and expensive offensive so in some places like have very dense population like London places like Tokyo pays places like Seoul Korea. That's worth delivery has taken off more so than areas that are a little bit sparsely populated particularly suburbs herbs in rural areas <hes> I suppose it might line up to with the percentage of the population that drives cars as well because if you wanted to bring home a lot of heavy stuff it's not as easy if you don't have a car. If you think about groceries categories of food you think about things that are bulky and heavy so I've got a cat so I have automatic cat cat food and littered delivered to me so I don't have to drag that around so if you think about the way online shopping started it was primarily with things that are commodity and replenishment so consumers are more likely to get those types of merchandise delivered to them than some of the things that you wanna touch and feel and examined for yourself. <hes> can we dig into that a little bit. Josh our producer was telling us that he he had some groceries delivered kind of an experiment and and went pretty well though he says he got the Green Bananas that he's ever seen does that line up with what you've heard what are people choosing to buy via delivery and what are people preferring to buy themselves in touch and hold yeah. The perishable is is the kind of the most difficult part because there's a couple issues one is we all have preferences and what we like particularly for for me for produce for dairy products things that you really want to look in touch particularly early produce and so that's an issue that when you think about retailers how are they gonNA manage to get things the exact way that you'd like them so a lot of consumers especially for the freshness want to go and examine that and pick that up for themselves and and it gives groceries and additional challenge if something is on your list say if I'm GonNa make something and I need Roma Tomatoes and maybe the Roma tomatoes their autumn or they don't look good so does a grocery store then substitute something for me right to really nice heirloom tomato instead of what I asked for so those kind of judgment decisions that are a challenge for retailers to can get in the head of the consumer in the consumer actually to trust retailer to make those decisions for them so our grocery stores changing in response to delivery services well a lot of them are acquiring or partnering with technology companies who have these types of technologies and services and staff to do it so when Amazon on acquired whole foods couple years ago that was a big wakeup call for North American grocers and subsequent to that you've seen a lot of activity big companies like so beads and Kroger's are partnering with a European Company called Avocado for for online delivery and even using robots pack their online orders other companies like Walmart and target and Blah Blah's are all implementing new programs to allow consumers to either do what we call clicking collect where I would order it online some new pick it for me in the store and I just come in pick up my groceries and take them on or that they would deliver them on demand delivery which means you know I order it now and it will be here within a one or two our window so there's multiple types of deliveries at grocers can offer and I think that's what they're all trying to get their head around. What is their consumer most likely to want to buy from them and then what's the best delivery model for them to satisfy the consumers needs? It's so then if grocery delivery services are generally in partnership with grocery stores. Do the grocery stores consider delivery services competition or is it just a new avenue for their products. That's a really really good question question. There's a company called instant cart. An instant cart is serving a lot of different grocers as their delivery and picking vehicle so in that instance there as service to the grocer. They're going to do that last mile delivery three to the customer but what happens if something goes wrong with that delivery INSTA- card is the face of those grocers we have heard some sort of horror stories of people getting things delivered to them. They're completely not what they asked where there's a substitution that completely it didn't work for their purposes so what kinds of lessons to these companies have to learn or to meet clients you know subtle or specific expectations. That's an interesting thing and that's where some new technologies can actually come into play things like think analyst six one of the great things about doing delivery service is the consumer orders from you so you know what they want rate as opposed to in the store. You have no idea what they want. You just know what they buy so it can give you a lot of insight it into what consumers are looking for and a to use information to then <hes> streamline your offerings and offer things that they're really looking for so from that perspective. There's one way that it can be useful to you the other is you know. There's gotta be a closed loop feedback with the consumerism my goodness you delivered me. These things you're substitution wasn't right but then you're going to incur some type of costs either refunding the consumer for something or sending out another order which is another level of cost so it is a real problem album in that's why particularly for perishables at in the last category of merchandise that has been adopted for self delivery shopping online has become very common for just about everything except Sept- groceries so what do you think would have to change for deliveries to become the standard for grocery shopping well. It's really interesting because across all product lines the vast vast majority of merchandise is still bought in a store it somewhere around ninety andy percent given that though the global grocery industry is over five trillion dollar business and right now just three to five percent of grocery spending is done online so there's there's a belief that between fifteen and twenty percent of of total online sales for grocery will be the endgame. I know that you've looked a little bit of what bricks and mortar grocery stores ought to do to make the in-person shopping experience more attractive. Can you share some of that absolutely in groceries not to get down on groceries. They've been a laggard because their merchandise scrushy food is not optional. We all need to eat right and in times of economic changed you can consumers will trade up for Detroit down the by more chicken or ground meat instead of steaks and grocers for for a long time have been a little bit complacent and what's happened as they now have competition from what we call non traditional sources so companies like dollar stores convenience stores Uber eats delivering from restaurants meal solutions solutions that <hes> companies like Blue Apron and other are offering a subscription so there other places and other ways consumers can solve their meals meal problems right so what merchants are doing in responses. They're doing some and things to make their stores more interesting. They're doing sampling cooking classes offering in-store dining and then they're also offering changing the products they offer so everyone is interested in more healthiest shoot right not healthy unhealthy itch. They're offering a better assortment right so more things that <hes> suit you from the standpoint of you know you. You want to not deprive yourself but you want to make sure that you're feeding yourself well. They're offering their own meals solution kits which has been interesting and Grotius just in general art are having different formats so you'll see companies that have suburban stores and then you'll see them have a very different set of offerings in in a city store so a small format city the store with more prepared foods to go <hes> more food on the go so we're seeing grocers react to different types of non traditional competitors from online grocers as well as for them to react to consumer to quip consumers looking forward for to solve their meal Solution Problem Patricia. Thanks so much for your insights on this. Oh It's a pleasure Patricia. Vetch Waldron is a retail marketing expert in San Diego California. You're listening to spark. This is sparked spark from your friends C._B._C.. Radio and this is our summer series of the spark guy to life today where revisiting our special on grocery store attack it originally aired in March. Here are some sad stats for are you. An alarming fifty eight percent of all food produced in Canada is lost or wasted. That's thirty five point. Five million tons and only about eleven percent of plastics are recycled in Canada the rest end up in our landfills lakes parks and oceans so with plastic and food waste becoming amounting problem. Maybe it's time to change the way we shop while from Brooklyn to Sicily Malaysia South Africa Vancouver and Toronto a growing number of supermarkets are now all selling food without single use plastic packaging the trying to curb the toll of plastic on the Environment Michelle. Gantner is the CO owner of UNE boxed market in Toronto. She's part of this wave of environmentally conscious entrepreneurs who were opening zero our waste markets around the world so we decided to go take a look and see how it all works yeah welcome. You're at box market and you're going to give us a tour absolutely come on all right so when you come in the door the first the you'll see on the left hand side after the cafe is terr- station and so this is where you would get anything that you don't have that you need to shop like produce bags. <hes> that are made of cotton we also have silicone bags or jars that we have on a two dollar deposit system dumb so if you just forgot your jars you can return them clean. That's totally okay okay <hes> and then just at the end of the counter we have a little scale in the skill set two grams so you would bring either your jar or when you're getting from US and set it on the scale Oh and then it will give you the accurate in grams you write that weight on the jar with Little Wax Pencil and then you go through and fill it all up when you come back to cash on your way out we way off so we tear the off okay and then charged for what's inside fantastic so so what inspired you to start this zero way store so most of the inspiration came from our upbringing I'm from rural southwestern Ontario and Louise's from southern Portugal and so it was very much a part of our lives going up that you buy local you support your farmers you support your neighbors <hes> and you buy fresh as much as possible and so when we sold our Bar Lewis said you know I've always wanted to do a grocery store and I said well if we're going to than we need to do something that is very true to our beliefs beliefs in our principles and so we started researching and said okay this is the kind of store we wanNA open and Ontario is very far behind the rest of the world in in no waste or ecoconscious or zero way stores so I think that it was the right time the right place and it was something that just really rang true to us. I know that you have a background in the hospitality sector in the restaurant sector so what how did that inform how you think about some of these challenges even just in our day to day life life in the in the restaurant and seen how packaging was changing and how things were coming in <hes> wrapped in plastic and then in a box and then in another plastic shrink wrap and then taped <hes> and then when we've used the product and and served a meal or porter drink or done whatever and people are ready to go and they asked for the leftovers to boxed up and so now we've packaged it again in another set of packaging so packaging on both sides and waste on all sides and it. Accumulates in Houston when you start to see you really start to see it. <hes> I understand the province up Ontario add some incredible Stott about the amount of food food waste that we produce every year here yeah. There was one that I found I think it was five and a half times the Skydome do we say this guy is because I know I think it was five and a half times a year. We fill the sky dome with waist. Okay Yeah So. Can you show me a little bit of what you're selling. Bulkin described yes absolutely lutely <hes> so all sorts of bulk spices dried goods cereals fruits <hes> all live in various gravity bins or <hes> not dispenser so you have some various that you can grabbing my weight. Everything is all measured in weight so it doesn't matter if you need just a cup or five cups or all of them yes fine because that to me. He seemed like a real advantage. Especially for a single person is not being tied into you know getting whatever twelve exit when you only two or whatever yeah absolutely or if you're trying to new recipe and you're not sure about a spice and it turns out you hate it and then you get stuck with seven little spice containers container that you're never going to use before they go stale or go. God <hes> so you can come in and get you know what you need for that recipe so yeah so those are some of the gravity events we also have this beautiful wooden cabinet that just came in so it's on little doors so you open it like so and then all of your ball spices just lay inside of their and so what you have quite an extensive <hes> cheese the case here so what what my storing my stinky cheese in when I come here so cheese in Delhi this is one thing that you don't generally find anabolic store and we've worked very hard to curate this <hes> wall what most people do as bring in a a snap top Tupperware lid or <hes> you know their lunch mates container some people bring in just block bags or zippered bags. It all depends on how you WanNa start in your house when you get home right this part here is our table <hes> so this fronts to state of Saturday and in the kitchen downstairs we make all of our prepared foods that come up to the table every day. It's one of the biggest savers of our store because the number one loss that you have in a grocery stores produce fresh goods before anything happens before they get damaged before they wilt or rot for they have that chance we take it downstairs. Cook it into something and send it up as prepared meal that people can take an enjoy okay because you do have Gordon extensive amount of produce. There's we sure do understanding. I can get milk on Tom. You can yeah I can show you. We're coming up to that right now. So this is milk on tap and the same concept applies you grab your Mason Jar and you can <hes> or whatever jar are some people bring back their brand did like harmony more <hes> Hewitt's or whatever jar they have in so you open the lead like so and then there's a little spout under here just push the handle it and fill filled with milk. I guess not doesn't make a lot of noise so you are asking people to do a little extra planning. If they're gonNA shop here they have to plan to bring in their own stuff. Although you do have stuff that <hes> people can use <hes> so what are you doing to try and make it more kind of easier or appealing or to convince people that this is an option for them. I really don't think that it's required <hes>. The convincing I don't think is very much required thing. There is a large movement movement that already exists in the world in our community. The response from people coming into our store has been amazing. <hes> there is a community that you know is very on the fence or doesn't really see the benefit of one store doing this but to that I say we need more stores and if we need one to start those extra stores happening and having them find their space in seeing that it's possible than that will push their own momentum come forward which only helps everybody and so besides feeling good about being more environmentally friendly what are some of the benefits of buying food with Oh packaging. Yes so aside from the environment. which is the huge thing that's on? Everybody's mind right now. It's very much a an ability to be more concise in what you're purchasing so you don't have to go through that mentality that we were all raised around of you know by as much as possible and having your pantry full says that you are of a certain status and all all of the other million stereotypes that we can draw around that if you only need three roles of toilet paper. Why are you buying a jumbo-size Ninety six package of toilet paper and then it's money that's tied up that you could have put somewhere else? If you are a single person listen. You only need to eggs. Why are you buying a case of eighteen those kinds of things so keeping things fresh paying attention to what is actually in your fridge and downsizing on the waste that happens there in your pantry and all the other aspects helps <hes> helps people now in especially in this economy where rent is so high gas is so high? Everything just keeps climbing. This is a number that you can vary accurately control and budget for it because you can walk in and get exactly what you need. So what do you think the future holds for zero waste grocery stores. Do you think we'll be seeing more and more stores like yours or do you think the big chains are going to start to follow suit. I would love it if the chains followed suit. I think that that is the ideal <hes> I know that there has in a lot of push for response from the chains in our province in in our country to give some options that are more than just I'm going to start charging for my plastic bag which they're making a profit on because they realized that can <hes> instead ahead of that same. Maybe they have some kind of a loyalty program where if you are bringing in your own containers that has a benefit or whatever the form is that comes along I think that that's bound to happen and and if more stores like ours open and they are <hes> and they're opening all over the world I think that that gives voice to the smaller grassroots community to the individuals who can then more easily put put pressure on levels of government on the larger chains on the manufacturers in producers and the <hes> upper echelons if you will of those <hes> groups so that we can change it top to bottom Michelle. Thanks so much for telling us about it pleasure. Thank you so much. They shall get near ease the CO owner of unblocks market in Toronto so just how big a problem is plastic packaging well back in March. A dead whale was found washed up in the Philippines with eighty eight pounds of plastic in its stomach and sin enormous problem. I think most of us have seen news release add pictures of Dolphins and Wales having <music> <hes> been killed by ingesting plastic. That's Emily Macho. She's a science and technology writer. Who recently wrote about the rise of ZERO WASTE GROCERY STORES FOR SMITHSONIAN DOT COM yes food packaging? It makes up a large percentage of the packaging in general that winds up landfills which isn't surprising you know. We all eat food every day so if you think about your own trash in your house probably much of the trashes from your kitchen is from food packaging that you throw away every we day. Emily divides her time between North Carolina and Hong Kong in Hong Kong. She says Plastic King you could go to the grocery store and you can buy literally a single Japanese strawberry. That's you sitting in a foam net inside a box wrapped in plastic wrap. Emily wrote about how she stumbled upon a new supermarket in her neighborhood. In Hong Kong called live zero part of the growing global movement of stores like unblocks market here in Toronto so it looks like the zero waste concept has been steadily catching on we started seeing it really in Europe and it was about ten years ago and it's fully spread and kind of gained momentum confined these kind of stores in <hes> in really countries all over you can find him certainly in the U._S. and Canada most places era you'd find here in Hong Kong and Malaysia South Africa <hes> they're really all over the place. It seems to be part of this kind of sense of consumers becoming more aware of the impact of plastic waste of meeting the been these movements to ban plastic drinking straws and plastic bags for example yeah. There's absolutely a much higher level of awareness and really growing awareness of the damage plastics doing to our environment. Ask Some people call a call twenty eighteen now last year the the year of Straw because that was the year that this sort of to get rid of plastic drinking straws really gained momentum many started to see companies like McDonald's in starbucks. Take that seriously if you go through this kind of pendulum of interest in banning plastic bags or buying from bulk stores and then people kinda get tired of it and we go back to plastic and then there's another new trend. Do you think this will stick this time. I think we're moving towards visit sticking. There is a lot of momentum in a lot of quarters. were seeing some legislative momentum. <hes> Europe is going towards getting rid of single plastic. We're seeing you know like I said. Companies like McDonald's starbucks taking it seriously in you know when when companies that are taking it seriously it means that it's an issue. That's really hit the mainstream so it's no longer sort of like a niche hippy fringed issue. It's something that people really are taking seriously so while. I don't know that we're all GONNA be shopping. Get Zero waste supermarkets next year. I think that it just shows that interest in awareness of cutting down on her use of plastic is is really starting to stick in the mainstream. I believe you also mentioned loop which service that basically takes the old approach of the milk delivery system where they pick up your stuff and refill it for you as an as an option so do you think how much of a kind of share of the market do you think these initiatives might <hes> might make yes so loop is actually really interesting. This is a service. That's just getting started right now. It's a platform where online platform that's partnered with a lot of really big food corporations like Nestle Coca Cola and what they're doing is you order food online and then they bring a reusable box to your house full of whatever you've ordered say Haagen Dazs ice cream in a reusable cleaner and UNITA and you then you know put the containers back in the box but back on your porch and you know how the delivery person pick it up again so it is like you said sort of like the old fashioned milk delivery but in in theory for anything you want from ice cream to shampoo geico so it it's going to be very interesting to see if that takes off because if it does it certainly has the potential to really change the way we shop in the way we think about packaging and certainly as as you mentioned some big companies like Nestle are on board with that so they have you been one over personally is live zero your new regular supermarket. Will you know the thing about these supermarkets is that you know unless you are absolutely cooking everything from scratch every single day. You'RE NOT GONNA be able to get everything you need. At this point zero waste supermarket so it has for me it has really raised awareness of how much plastic I use and it made me much more careful about what I buy what it's packaged in and how much I by <hes> because food waste is an adjacent issue probably happen is instead of us. All shopping net zero wasted supermarkets all the time. I think sort of more standard supermarkets will probably start having bulk aisles so things that make sense to buy in Volk you'll be able to buy in bulk and put it in a reasonable container but probably the largest thing is going to be just gleaner packaging so you know bioplastics other sort of reusable materials. I think are really GonNa be in even apart of the wave of the future emily. Thanks so much for talking to US better. Thanks so much for having me. Emily Machar is a writer based in Hong Kong and North Carolina. She wrote about the rise of ZERO WASTE GROCERY STORES TOURS FOR SMITHSONIAN DOT COM for the spark to life for this week our grocery special I roll down the aisle in March. Show was made by Michelle Parisi Josh clear I didn't kill Rachel matlock ten Hoffman and meaning or young and by Mike Von Moscow Alexandra Metavsky Madeline Claire Relish Patricia Becky Waldron Michelle getting hurt and Emily Machar famous on facebook and twitter. We are spark C._B._C.. If you WANNA listen sparked whenever you're darn well please why not get the podcast described wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nora young until next time. Don't forget the milk.

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TSP139 - The Undefinable Spirit: Lest We Forget - With historian/writer Hugh Brewster.

The Sill - Perspectives on Art

40:34 min | Last month

TSP139 - The Undefinable Spirit: Lest We Forget - With historian/writer Hugh Brewster.

"Homosexuality was only decriminalize in canada in may of nineteen sixty nine with filthy one fifty originated by trudeau and took. Ta where he says the state has no business the bedrooms of the nation and then when he became prime minister justice minister john. Turner ushered into law in sixty nine so it was only recently decriminalized that there was still a huge stigma about being gay. But of course. I was of the sixties seventies generation. You know longhaired. We cut our teeth on on war protests and so forth. you're listening to the sill. Podcast with peter. J and harry posner episode one hundred and thirty nine the undefinable spirit lest we forget with historian writer. Hugh brewster well. Welcome to another edition of the undefinable. Spirit here on the sill podcast. Today our special guest is writer. Historian hugh brewster. And i'm gonna give you a kind of a full-fledged intro to hughes background because there's so much going on there he's worn so many hats it's really fascinating. We're gonna have a long chat with you after this introduction. So here we go on the intro. At the age of six in nineteen fifty-six hugh brewster's family moved to canada from a small town in scotland and he spent his childhood in georgetown ontario at thirteen whose family moved to on -tario where he attended high school and university and avid reader throughout his youth. Hugh obtained an english degree. Nineteen seventy one and began his career as an editor with scholastic canada in that role. From nine hundred seventy two to nineteen eighty-four in both toronto n. p. york he was involved in the creation of scholastic canadian children's publishing program as well as in the selecting of books for scholastic school book clubs between nineteen eighty-four in two thousand four. He was the editorial director and publisher of madison. Press books in toronto where he helped to create a number of successful books for both adults and young readers including robert ballard's discovery of the titanic. A book that sold over one and a half million copies and titanic and illustrated history a book that provided inspiration for james cameron's epic movie among the award. Winning children's books that you edited and compiled are polar the titanic bear on board the titanic i to fly and journey to ellis island. He authored his first children's book published in one thousand ninety six and a stacey as album. The last sars youngest daughter tells her own story. The book that won numerous awards between ninety seven and two thousand seven. He penned several books about the titanic including inside the titanic. Eight hundred and eighty two and a half amazing answers to your questions about the titanic as well as on juno beach which won the children's literature of canada information book award in two thousand and five. The success of that book encouraged hugh to right at vinny ridge which appeared in two thousand seven and won the norma fleck award in two thousand eight since devoting himself to writing full time. Hugh has produced nine books since two thousand and five including the other mozart. The life of the famous chevallier descent. George up canada's dark stay of world war two a second novel deadly voyage and for the hundredth anniversary of the titanic in two thousand and twelve hugh produced a large adult book entitled gilded lives fatal voyage in two thousand fourteen. He published from vinnie to victory. Canada's fight to the finish in world war. One hues worn many hats including theater artist. He studied theater at university. And some years later found himself writing plays and performing onstage in different venues including kerner hall for the queen's ninetieth birthday in two thousand sixteen and a gala concert that roy thompson hall for canada one fifty the next year. Hugh is now workshop. A playcalls splash boys set in toronto. During the aids crisis hugh brewster has also curated successful museum shows about the titanic as well as the first world war. A show that was nominated for a governor general's history award welcome to the podcast writer historian. H- brewster what a cv. What a great to talk to you about sitting here mesmerized. And ask you the first question which is beyond your professional career. I understand that you were also at the man guard of the gay liberation movement in toronto in the early days. Can you tell us about that. Time the challenges the gay community faced and how things have changed since those early days. Yes well things have changed enormously and there was hardly a gay community at the time at least not an out of the closet one. Most people are more afraid of losing their jobs or upsetting their families. I'm a sexuality was only decriminalised in canada in may nineteen sixty nine with those see one fifty By trudeau and sixty eight where the state has no business in the bedrooms in the nation and then when he became prime minister justice minister john. Turner ushered into law in sixty nine so it was only recently decriminalized still huge stigma about being gay but of course i was in the sixty seventies generation longhaired. We've cut rt's on the war protest and so forth so the laws that it world was trust so friends started the hamath afoul. I was called in those days as university of wealth. When i was there and i was part of that and i came to toronto. And there was a conference with the u. of t. homophobia association and some of the really early famous gay pioneers like franklin and barbara getting came to that but it was very small world very new thing and so when i came to toronto i got involved with the second issue of the body. Politic part of the first collective of the body politic which was canada's first gay liberation newspaper and then became part of some of the other small groups at ended up and seventy two being part of the committee that started the host of the first gay pride week in toronto in the spring of nineteen seventy two and i was at the head of the gay pride parade marching with a born and i also went and got the parade permit the first gay pride parade permit. It was more of a protest parade and there were only about. I don't know one hundred fifty people tops on the sidewalk and on the street but that was the first and so it was very exciting to be involved in all of that. I was very young. Didn't really know what i was doing. And after i started working in publishing eventually drifted away from being a gay activists there were other for home. it was much more of a lifelong commitment Sorry i was taken by that statement. You made one hundred and fifty people. Yeah maybe i would say like more but no it was not a big group and a lot of people were clutching signs with a certain amount of fear. I remember going to get the parade permit from peggy division. When it was still on jarvis street and the cop that i'm mad with was very nice young guy in those days were often not friendly toward gay people and even though it had been decriminalized are often looking young. Cobb was certainly courteous but he was just gobsmack. He said you really believe in this. 'cause you're you're really gonna walk down the street letting everybody know that your way yes damn never in a million people on youngster fellow things that have happened more recently and gay pride event growth rate. Oh extraordinary yeah. No i could never have envisioned it ever being mainstream and does being as widespread. It is now and so. What are some of the challenges. Today that the gay community faces into that are still obstacles. Still plenty of prejudice that i mean gay marriage is legal but there are still lots of issues certainly. It's much improved. But it's not like we can say. Oh well everything is fine. And of course the trans community which is part of the lgbt acronym face enormous Prejudice and sigma and the suicide rate and violence rate There is strong among gay teams among all lgbt. Now face a lot of reaction and there are still families who are highly resistant particularly religious families who shunned their children. Mine newest splash. Boys is about that and my own family was deeply religious and very devout. And so i spent my whole life i think working out issues around that befriended a gentleman who was one of my clients. Actually he passed away before his ninety fourth birthday. And just a tremendous guy who. I really enjoyed my time with for little time. That i knew him and he'd been born and raised in england had served during the second world war in very secretive type of work for the british government and so on and it was interesting to hear him. Tell me how here. He was in his twenties and thirties. And not only was frowned upon. But in those days he could go to prison. Yes and there was also connected to alan. Turn who you know who saved god knows how many hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives and microcomputer exactly ending up miserably at the end not even given full credit for what he had accomplished only in germany chemical castration and committed suicide exactly. It's all very grayson. Does a new documentary called cured. Which is about the fight to get the american psychiatric association to take on the sexuality off its list of psychiatric disorders. And of course i need some of the people involved with that. I also knew people who went for electroshock therapy and their families were cellphones. And i didn't want to be a member of this group of outcasts and so they went for electroshock therapy another really brutal forms of therapy so that was a great fight and it took a long time over thirty years to get recognition of gay marriage that we could never have imagined back in nineteen seventy two. I have a quick question. The may or may not be related. But i'm curious about one thing quickly before harry carries on here we talk about homosexuality but homosexuality also deals with both genders. Why do you think that women don't seem to get anywhere near the same level of static. While i don't know if all together for i think maybe traditionally women living together arouse good less attention. I think we all remember for high school. Librarians live with a high school gym teacher in our small town. No one thought anything of it because maiden ladies is they were call. Living together was not quite so stigmatized. But i think the lesbian would tell you that They face a different kind of discrimination man. I think traditionally being seen of power figures in society. Perhaps we're more stigmatized. If they were out in their careers they were discovered in providence careers than the scandal was fairly huge. And that is what we knew about. We only knew about gay people. On the time. I'm factuality who's ever mentioned in connection with some crime. And of course in ottawa. All service could be fired the mouth investigating people and so forth so yeah. The the stigma was really pretty huge so the battle goes on still to this day. I mean thirty years would have happened if all happen in a relatively short space of time. And i have to say i think it was largely well. Educated middle-class gays be who who fought the good fight that it happened in a relatively short space of time within my life. Hugh from your biography. Here you were an inveterate reader from a very young age. And i'm a writer myself. I always like to ask this question of other writers. When did you. I know and how did you know that you were a writer. Oh well it took a long time. I mean when i started working in publishing became an editor but i also being the editorial director and publisher of madison. I dreamed up a lot of the books. I rewrote the tax. That i wrote the captions and five. I did a lot of editorial work. But i was used to fixing other people's books and with the anesthesia book. Which is the first album. Which i dreamed up. It was an idea. But i hide a writer to do it and she was unable to finish it because of other commitments and so i wrote it i wrote the tech and put my name on it and did very well and i thought well i like. I like the center of attention. Only this right. But it wasn't until. I was certainly in my forties that i maybe i could be a writer. And what led you to your deep interest in history. And why. The titanic in particular owe like many things in life. These things often just accidental. I was always interested in the titanic. I remember seeing the movie. The nineteen fifty-six movie tv not only in the early sixties called a night to remember that was based on walter lord's phenomenal bestseller and it was a fairly accurate movie and fairly accurate a calf a young teen and i remember watching it on. Tv with my brothers and we all had a competition. Well i would you survive. Oh i would have torn door off and made a rap. There's something so completely haunting about that story. So i read a night to remember. I was always kind of interested and then early on in my career with madison. When i came back from new york there was a serranto lawyer. We knew who's still a prominent entertainment lawyer. And literary asian. And michael levine. And he said well. I've got this guy who says he's going to find titanic and i remember coming. My partner was the president of medicine sort of grown. Because there was always somebody going to go on five. Titanic and then they didn't do it and texas oilman named jack. Graham had just got out and raise all kinds of money to make a film and then make a book about the finding of the attic and he didn't find it so he did a book called beyond reach thought. Michael levine said. No no no. No no this guy. The top scientists would whole russian. Graphic institution is one of the top marine underwater exploration institutes in the world. And you should meet ballard. He's like an astronaut. He's very charismatic. So we flew tall. We met ballard. We saw the equipment that he had and he was very compelling and i thought boy. Will this guy find tonic. It'll be something so we'd love to do this and we explained to him. The book producer produces simultaneously all around the world and he liked that idea and then i remember labor day weekend. Nineteen eighty five. And i was at home and i got a call from levin and he just heard from the exploration ship but they had found the damage that that was all very exciting men in the next day it was the front page of the newspapers and so on but that was the last good day we had for quite a while because it was a joint french and american expedition and the french without on the first leg and didn't find them to of the french crew members came on the american ship and the very last moment they were down to their last night before they had to go home. They actually well. But of course all the credit to the americans and the french were very unhappy and so it was a bit of a mess for a while but then in nineteen eighty. Six ballard said we'll look founded. I know where it is. And i'm going to go back with my submarine and go down and explorer it up close and personal. And that's what he did and we took those pictures and took them to the frankfurt book fair. We took them to new york. And so the book all over the place nor the discovery of the titanic. But i worked on. Oh for at least the next year. Identifying all the things that ballard had seen on the ocean floor working with an amazing guy named kenmore shell. Who's the world's leading. Titanic artist along with titanic store so i learned a lot from doing that but once that book was done. I figured well. That's it. I gave all the pictures and everything. We accumulated to mercer island. John lynch random and that was it but then we went to the frankfurt book fair after the came out and everybody was over the moon at have been a bestseller people. Having the titanic was kind of kota wreath on. I mean there were titanic buffs on. But it wasn't a mass of salmon on the publishers. Were amazed this. This book had become such a seller. And i told please do another book about the answer. That's the worst german accent last employer and that did very well and then Us other like couldn't do big like coffee table book. And i thought well yeah good. Can marsha got these amazing paintings and stuff. We did a coal titanic and illustrated history and that also did very well. It was like sixty dollar book. But it was beautiful and candidate a lot more illustration and we got archival illustration and yeah and it was caverns. Cameron loved the book and bought it up by the case load and took it around to the studio with tgi rendering which was leaked Bring these paintings for life. And so he got the money and built the titanic and rosa rita beach mexico. Hard ken as one of his chief consultants and other people well and the press on the film was terrible. It was a budget. People cameron's maniac film is going to be a big disaster just like the original chorus rough cut of the film. I knew wasn't going to be turkey. I knew is going to be incredible. I didn't know it was going to be the most popular film ever made. But i said we'd better do. Some more book is a singer joining the huge and it was phenomenon and it. May i panic a mask on and it's never gone away apart from the famous astor's and the young guggenheim et cetera. And those people who are some of the most interesting characters amongst the passengers on the titanic give an example one or two very interesting crew. Which is why. I wrote gilded lives. It'll voyage form microcosm of the age of the warden and the gilded age and there are so many archie but the unfortunately named manager but who was the chief white house aide to both teddy roosevelt. And then to william howard. Taft as president and archie kept diaries. He wrote letters to his mother. And his sister-in-law describing his life is life in the white house which were wonderfully written he had a tremendous or everything In your lives. I speculate that he was a gay man. If he wasn't. I'd be very surprised. But of course we don't have any smoking gun proof of that but i've never met a straight man quite like archie and so you know he's a an absolutely fascinating person. I also am a fan of lady. Warden grew up in ontario and the eighteen sixties of just playing lucy sutherland and a big house not far from where i grew up and she and her mother and her sister became. Eleanor glenn the famous romance novels. And they went to england and grew up. There and lucy eventually became lucille. The most famous fashion easter of the day before chanel there was lucille invented. The fashion show invented the fashion model. She the craze for big apps. You've already and huge hats. That was all begun by some big hats that she designed for the merry widow. The opera out of the merry widow which was delay muse of its day was essentially popular trump and spurred a craze for enormous half huge ostrich feathers and so that was all fields doing and her story is fascinating because they were scapegoats for having escaped. I panic in a lifeboat was less than half full. You know. there's a very interesting story. Lucia and her husband. Sir cosmo just learn something. New first of all. I always thought lucille was. Bb king's guitar. Yes hugh you've also written attacks about aspects of both world wars subjects that were extensively explored and written about as a writer and historian. What prompted you to focus on those particular events. I've always been interested personal war. A course followed naturally from the titanic seen as a warning alpha for a complacent society steaming towards disaster but it actually practical way scholastic with whom i've done a number of folks said you know Great interest in the schools now in canadians in war. And i thought your kidding because during the seventies and eighties war was taboo subject. You know my generation who were very anti vietnam war. We all had posters in our dorm room saying wars not healthy for children and other living things so warren was not thought to be at all suitable as subject for young readers but in the schools there had developed enormous interest. I think what the world war two generation dying off and all of that being lost remembrance day which was very much fading as a memorial day was completely revived by the new generation and during the harper era harper was a boss of canadians in war and he plays emphasis on it. Yeah all of a sudden. There was great interest in this and they're really hadn't been very many books for young readers about canadian stories war and of course we're one we were in it for a lot longer than the americans verve and we lost for capita a lot. More people a lot more people than from any other allied nations so our stories are as good as anyone. They just haven't been given kind of attention. So when i did juno beach again. People hadn't heard of john. Beach wasn't until the juno beach centre was fed up for the anniversary with private. Money ran walmart. Canada put up a lot of the money. Still privately on the beach center is not government. Run the next major anniversary was the ninety that rotary vinny ridge started. Well i could do about Vinny ridge and So i went on from there. They were very popular began. A sought after speaker in schools particularly around remembrance. Day and it's now part of the curriculum and something that canadians take a great interest so whilst thing on the subject of history in this age of wikipedia and fast food style knowledge. It seems that the study of history has wayne or lost. Some of its appeal. Why do you think it's important for young minds to preserve an understanding of history. Well understand the world we live in. Today it's hard to do that without understanding where we came from and how important it is how fragile democracy is how fragile. Our way of life is and how easily that could be destroyed and people coming here. From other countries and with the huge surge of immigration people come here from countries that have had autocratic governments that have had much less freedom and so they come here and they appreciate canada. So it's important. We're looking at some history of fresh and indigenous people and others talk a lot about colonialism than colonialism is a big part of our history. So should we ignore that. Should we overlook it or should we come to terms with it. I don't think there's less interest in history. I think there's still interested in and particularly when it's engaging on you can make it engaging making a story and are really interested in their own country speaking of memorable and historic moments when you were at madison press you would regularly make sales calls in new york and one of the most memorable was a call on jacqueline onassis in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight a meeting. You wrote about in zuma magazine. Can you talk about that experience. You asked for it was i mean. Jackie onassis with an editor doubleday. We had approached her about books in the past but she hadn't wanted to have a meeting before then we had a project that was of interest so we tried various day. And then i remember life partner who was already in new york. We'll we're on with jackie o for next week said oh okay. I'll come down. And he said if four next tuesday november twenty. Second win a minute. She's not going to be working that day. That's the anniversary of the fascination. I remember it. I was in grade nine november twenty second yash shelby at the graveside or the eternal flame or something. You'd better call back. So he called back and said no her secretary or assistant says this is after the day remembered. She'd rather have his birthday remembered so she'll be in the office so then. The meeting day was changed to around new was changed to noon. So i thought oh my. Gosh that's the actual time that it happens We're going to be there the actual the actual time and so it was yeah. Felt very strange about it. And then we walked into six fifth avenue. The office building doubleday was located. That later became famous as the office. Building that jared kushner paid too much money for There's only one way and the main entrance and in the lobby were all these new stances several news and they all had time and newsweek and all of these magazines played faith out. And so all. You saw a sea of jackie and pink dress. And i thought oh my god because it was the twenty fifth anniversary of your fascination. She has to walk by this. Yeah every day. what was she everything you imagine. She might be really how so. She was older and fifty seven. So she wasn't the jackie of imagining. Were for big glasses and the and shows warring backup and she was just wearing slacks and so on and she was kind of self effacing and she had a rottweiler sort of fade manner about her. That was another people captured. This as well but i remember we were sitting in the lobby and instead of having to go find her office she came out to greet you very classy and we were sitting in the lobby looking at the catalogue and she says oh. What are you looking at and we said well we're just looking at the along and she said oh. That was our have a look at them. Sometimes i mean everybody knows what the catalog work on it. It's a new books are presented crushing with that was but there was this slightly half above aloft level say wave expressing herself. And i remember that among some women of my mother's generation they ratified the artificial manner gloves. And i mean she was very very bryant could speak all. These languages became friendly with his aldridge. Who have been her. Social secretary and tisch became famous person in her own right but she organized all the great events of kennedy white house. I later did a book with her about that. And she said on an jackie with kissy bride she said i think he may have been a little bit medicaid the middle of our presentation. You the the saint patrick's way and down a bit Started tolling loudly. And i began to say. Oh that must be the say carried right on. But in that moment i looked at her and i think just for an instant there was this sense of. Oh my god twenty. Five years ago motorcades the whole thing seemed to flash server my maybe i'm dramatizing impact of it all. But because she was rather tells acing. I have a little bit funny. It wasn't a go. She gave him your car. You know. Jacqueline kennedy onassis. That you have a holy shit moment this but in the end basically just another human being was typical emotions. And when you talk about being spaced out who knows if in part that particular day she may have been a little bit more spaced out than usual entirely possible. How could it be on your mind. But yeah i've met a few very famous people and i never quite live up to your fantasy and then jackie was somebody i think. We were tanaka's overused. But i think you can certainly use the term about her attorney for people our age who are all have to remember the assassination. She was certainly the most famous woman in the world and a remarkable figure just to move away into another area. Another facet of your life is screenwriting. Plays and you're currently workshop and play called splash. Boys what's does play about and Wendy hope to have it staged. Well i play. I fight insurance. I got into play writing. Even though identity university i had done some shows tying into books that i've done so forth with the mendelssohn choir and the award singers and that sort of got me back into being a bit theatrical then in researching my world war one books i came across a sir arthur. Currie lose are great commander of world war one and there wasn't a trial that was very famous at the time where he took the port. Hope newspaper puerto evening guide to court for liable for saying that he had taken the town of mons in belgium. Which is where the canadian were of ever eleventh. Nineteen eighteen hit simply done that for his own glory and they wouldn't back down so curry took them to court so doing my research at lebanon of canada. I looked up the archive of these transcripts of the trial and a lot of the dialogue jumped off the page. And i thought somebody should make a play out of this. Why is this never happened. This trial really canada's role in world war one on trial in the spring of nineteen twenty eight so i decided to do it and eroded added didn't go anywhere and nobody was interested and out of the playwright deleting. I met somebody who said they'd have canadian. Players life the script he said. Let's do it and we ended up doing it in coburg in the beautiful victoria hall. Which has this remarkable courthouse. Actual trial took place. So we did it there. And we're gonna have the whole celebration or out of called zetino a museum. Show that the war. Oh just all kinds of stuff which got nominated for a governor general's history award and it was a great experience in maclean's wrote an editorial saying why is covered doing more to commemorate this tinari of the armistice than the canadian government is so that then encouraged me to carry on with player riding. So i was having lunch with a young friend of mine. Who is a playwright or an actor and the idea for a play based on a true story a fraud case. that was fairly notorious. Back in the ninety about a guy was an art collector and he was embezzling money from his clients. He was a broker embezzling money to buy art. I think that's an interesting premise. For play and then setting it against the background prices When a lot of gaining about they were gonna die with a bit live wartime. Like what the hell we're all going to die anyway. So i wanted to try and evoke better atmosphere. And then i decided to bring in religion gays and religions then a preoccupation of my life and so one of the main characters of the splash. Boys splash abbar new york where attractive young guys danced in -squitoes toronto rented one for toronto. And so i work all that into the play. And i've had a few workshops. And i hope that when the theater's come back and we'll be able to put it on stage hugh i'd like to sort of wrap this interview with kind of difficult question. Maybe maybe not who knows. But i'd like to talk to you as an historian on the one hand but also as someone who might have vision for the future. So here's the question to project into the future. And i'd like you to answer the question in years to calm. How do you think we're going to look back on this time. Of covert and how we handled it as a nation and as a world. Oh boy yeah is a very good question how we will look back on it. I mean i think in the united sta- it'll be inextricably involved with trump era. I think that's going to continue to fascinate people. He has attracted more attention than anyone else. So i think. The era of the covid era. I mean the nineteen eighteen pandemic was really forgotten about. It wasn't evolved much until recently a lot of this latest pandemic. i think it'll probably be fodder for drama and perhaps movies as well depending on what happens in the us with trump whether he runs again for another term. But i think it's clear that the mishandling of the pandemic led to his defeat because down ballot. Republicans were not defeated in many cases. So it wasn't so much his policies as his handling of the pandemic and his personality. So i think whenever that era is vokes it'll be pardoned harmful of the trump era and people will be arguing about populism and all that sort of thing for quite a while as far as candidates concerned. I think it'll be similar and it'll probably be reinterpreted. Which is what history does interpreted as a metaphor for various things. Yeah i think we can expect dramas and screenplay and history books booker you before we go. This is where we like to give our guest the opportunity to give out information with regards to anything. That's going to be happening websites. Contact information so feel free. I have an article. In the current zimmer magazine or which will be albums ever so it'll be around until january about the eighteen sixty visit prince of whale to canada which with our first royal. This and all kinds of things happened. It's a very interesting story. Man that's called of hearts. And i had done the research for that story as part of a theatrical presentation with neither with the edison singers that i was finding to do in covert from having done the play at armistice eighteen i now have a lot of connections with cobourg ontario very beautiful historic town and they have this remarkable townhall a palladian style building one of canada's most beautiful historic buildings the volunteers who run it wanted the fundraiser. To commemorate the hundred sixtieth anniversary of the hall. I wrote a show called also grand which brings in all these stories which are pretty interesting of this town and things that have happened there over the last hundred sixty years and with music we were supposed to do this spring at of course it go then got to fall and then got moved to next spring affected. We may have to move it to next fall sometime next year. I'm confident we will be doing a show in coburg at victoria hall. And it'll be a great experience so stay tuned to my website hubris dossier for information about that. I also. i'm selling at the moment called unthinkable. Lucille which is a book illustrated by laurie. Mcgaw remarkable strider that. I've worked within the past. That i hope will be out in twenty one or probably not twenty two. But it's children's brought about the ceo. Lady gordon canadian farm girl who became the queen of fashion and survived the titanic tastic. Thank you very very much. For coming on the podcast. Your life is fascinating from top to bottom and we. We could probably talk for hours. On end about all the incredible people you've run into cetera et cetera. Thank you so much for coming on and we'll hopefully talk having pleasure for me to and take care us. Well take care take care now again. We'd love to hear your comments. Yeah and in audio book could be a bonus if you and we have a little button on our website is pressing record. Exactly chow chow peter. Podcast is connecting dots media production available at the silk podcast dot com.

hugh brewster canada toronto Hugh ballard hugh trudeau madison justice minister john harry posner Hugh brewster vinny ridge norma fleck kerner hall roy thompson hall prime minister justice ministe university of wealth jackie o juno beach Turner
Startup Talk Podcast with Ethan Zhang of Neophyto Foods

Startup Talk Toronto's Startup Podcast

41:54 min | 2 months ago

Startup Talk Podcast with Ethan Zhang of Neophyto Foods

"Direct from the six world renowned canada's largest city with canada's biggest thinkers visionaries and hustlers. I this is startup. talk featuring the founders funders innovators and community leaders who've led canada's startup ecosystem. Right here in toronto. You'll hear the challenges. The failures the successes toronto startup. podcast gives you the full story direct from the entrepreneurs and influencers who've made a difference now the host of startup talking. The founder of toronto starts startup coach. And with that. I'd like to say. Welcome to ethan zang of neil fighter foods. Welcome ethan very excited. Yeah i'm trying to remember was it. I don't think it was two thousand nine hundred. And i'm going to say two thousand and eighteen. We met or was it. Two thousand nineteen. It was two thousand nine hundred. So funny i was actually. I was actually having this chat with my co is about When when we actually made you craig and it was a cna lawsuit and it's it's kind of surreal. That in on the was like one year ago when we didn't have any this year. But yeah yeah. And i don't know that was an it was a blur to me because i've done the seaney innovation garage. They do the emerging pitch entrepreneurs pitch competition. I think that was my fourth year there. I it's hard. I've done this for a while. So that's why. I wasn't sure but i don't know if that event will survive covid. Because you know they'll be. This was canceled this year. And we'll see if it comes back next year and if it does you know fit eleven new look and feel but yeah see you were there with your co workers. You had a booth And those of you. Who don't know the used to host the alberta emerging innovators pitch competition every year I think it was six a different Categories and each of those categories. You pitch to win five thousand and then you pitch for the finals and the finals gets another twenty five thousand. And if i understood correctly if i remember you want your you won your category category so we were in different tech and think full take an agricultural category so i think there are six of us in the country. Yeah we were fortunate to win our category. Yeah and i'm just going to go into this a little bit. There are some things you had a very busy booth seaney a number of times and people don't know what to expect and it's never what they expect right because you have a booth at seaney. Everyone really gets excited. Which is great because you know literally. Tens of thousands of people are walking you all weekend long. But that's exactly what they're doing walking by you all. We could look because they're they're the new right. Half of them are just let out from some event and they're just kind of being funneled through our area half of them there with kids but you one thing you had was Obviously with new fighter foods you had food and seems to always bring the crowd and you know always talk to people. What is what do you. What's your plan. You know the there's a bunch of people going to be walking by and you think you're going to get all their attention but you're not you're gonna have to figure out how to get their attention because they've got all this noise thousands and thousands of things committee for their attention like the robot. The robot wars that was going on in the area that was always loud. And how many other startups and yeah. So what did you find. Work bringing people into your booth. Yeah so i guess. One of the main main difference between on some of the other hoops is that we have free food. So free always trust people you And i guess the other thing was that also so who is At the time we wanted to use the as the market has It was actually pre up prelaunch us so at the time he had a vegan cheese is a pun based cream cheese And so we wanted to essentially get a market test Translate what the problem with the public things about no certain kinds of flavors that we had And so cnn was perfect Do it and so we weren't actually studying anything prelaunch So housing realm. So besides you know using Thank carol free food We did something that i think. I believe in the one house at the at least in our area enough was actually my first year At the first time ever so we actually see any site Set up a booth up where they had some like metal structures. Were over your heads. So we actually pay a bunch of signs that said free food or besides that we also co guerrilla marketing where we pay the same signs on the grounds With arrows that people To are so. I think that brought a lot of traffic to our rules. Yeah in families are always looking for free food. You know you laugh. But you go to the cnn. You don't wanna twelve for something and you got a family of four or family of five. It's your kids are hungry. Yeah let's just check this free food to keep quiet for a while and unlimited free food for them so it keeps you while i have to say you know. That was a very good tactic. During the pitch competition is immediately when people are on stage of somebody on your team and i can't remember which Who was but they were out with the Plate of food the crackers and cheese in front of the judges even before the pitch started so people were sampling. The food and that was very effective. Because you know it tastes really good. Yeah thank you for that. And i think definitely helps because of for a food item. It's it's very hard to imagine what it tastes like. As much as we can describe it this. There's no beating a sampling pacing the actual product. So that definitely helps shirt and you know i was. I sent you something the other day that said you know. Why vegan vegan cheeses a crime against god or something like that. Because it's all so bad and you know i've had so much of it A fair bit of and i'm not a vegan but i've been to many vegan restaurants and i hang around a lot of beacon so but yeah i usually forgo the cheese but your product is good. Why is it good. Yeah so. I'm also a big about us street. Basri whole founders. One of my goal funders is vegan. Yet a co-founder is lactose intolerant. Under i'm night i eat everything So the background is that The michael was vegan. He was struggling to find good vegan sheets because he for him night. He's tried a bunch of beacon cheeses and the ones that he tried are either haste. Some pasta or hayes gritting And he loves Coach psychology Favorite sheets. But when you turn when he became vegan night he couldn't find any good cheese alternatives. So that's kind of was starting point where he got a are the cool founder who's Food science background to make him the best You can. she's best pundits. she's possible and really the starting point is where we're coming from his. We tried to replicate kinda a traditional. She's making so that we wanna get close as possible to They re she's texture. And yeah. i guess was not really comparing ourselves to of vegan cheese per se but were actually compare ourselves daily cheese so that sake where we benchmark ourselves and so the product i tasted is that what is now neo cheese. Yeah exactly so with me. A some improvements but yes. That's that was the foundation for for new. She's okay so since people have no idea what we're talking about. Why don't you tell us a little bit about neo. Vital foods sure sounds great so on your vital food swear plant based food. Startup that aims. He is with signs who made palm base versions of everyone's favorite foods So without having to compromise on either taste texture or sustainability so palm trees with a first product that we came up with a because of personal need from one of cofounders And that was the first part on the precipitation for especially first thing now we ever launched to the market So interesting when we launch it. We launch it your january of this year so we actually launch into the segments of to restaurants caterers husky tidy groups and then we add we. Unfortunately we actually hit a snag. Production do cove it so in the meantime while we're trying to sort out of his production issues we actually launch a new product in the middle of the pandemic and so that is We now we're going to call you don't so it's in the process of rerunning bogan kalani. Okay so it's the first and only plan based meat kids in canada at only has five ingredients as shelf stable without preservatives and it's very versatile. So yeah that's gonna short spiel about us. So i've looked at your website so know what a meat kit is but can you explain that to the audience. Sure so me. Kit is essentially we think about it. It's like a good football folks a company Think people are generally quite familiar with a box or huddled fresh so meet kit for us. Is we provide you with the ingredients that you need to make a pun based meat products. And the reason why is versatile. It's because the ingredients are essentially try try quits That you can all you have to do. Is you just have oil at water planet slightly and then you can shape into anything you want. So you can shape it into burger ship into Nuggets you contributing to me boss Extremely versatile yeah and it looks good. How does it taste it. Honestly it great so Either roommate and he's he's not a begin So when we were testing on a product I actually made those like english sausage breakfasts methods. So i may one of those with army and he actually could face a different. So very nice. I think that'll be a very popular. So let's take a step back. And i like to understand. You know who the entrepreneurs growing up. You look pretty young still. So i'm an old man dallas. Everyone looks but where you a handful for your parents. You studious were you into music sports socializing. Yeah so i actually grew up in singapore so born in china and in singapore. I've moved pretty young with my with my family so my entire childhood was almost exclusive in. Singapore grew into a schooling their Finish with reservists and then My sort of first time living in canada was when i went to mcgill for montenegran so growing up. I grew up very traditional asian household. Where a great were almost everything. I was like at school. I wasn't extracurriculars like It was hanan sidetracking fuel rugby and things like that. So i was like general my interest in sports but honestly speaking greats were really really important so i did spend a lot of time studying I a ton of practice accents And yeah. I don't think i was really anything. Anything really different of my upbringing with a traditional asian A brain. So what point did you know that you wanted to be an entrepreneur. Because if you're the studios studio type usually following the traditional role yeah so so it. Housing campo undergrad. I was actually thinking about shriveling finance. And if i wanted to finance now what's what's my popeye without engineering route. Go for mba. L. jumped the finance officer or should it just do a greater finance which eventually you would have ended up doing So i think going to mcgill and just just getting global perspective Leaving singapore preschool was Was a big change was big like inflection point in my life because they re expos me two different things that i have not seen before and i think especially having to just leave home and Survival survivor live on my own in a foreign country in a foreign city where s what montreal's. I didn't speak french so different environment. So yeah i think that mid-east sort of Kind of kick started the whole an entrepreneur. And i help you some little bit of stuff. That i was doing when i was undergrad. So some of the looking back could think of disaster. You could categorize slowly entrepreneurial but i think it's actually quite is not very uncommon. So what i would do to supplement my own life. Living expenses was i. Just you know. I out use textbooks Every year like a graduating students they will try to carry out the textbooks for extremely low price Sometimes they're like you know what just take a ticket for free. Now be like great. I'll take it i'll resulted. That would probably cover my groceries for colleagues or something like that. Yeah that's re my sort of first Foray if it will Into into entrepreneurship. But then after that i guess going to university Like i actually end up working in associate privacy right out of Out of undergrad. So was my first straw and we were like Nope yvonne's refunds. And that. I think that was truly this arc where i really thought that. I think this is really cool. It's like starting a company being able to say i started something from stretch It's school and i think there's no time to do this to take this risk and went young and i really nothing to lose so there you are thinking you want to be an entrepreneur finding the right co-founders or your or your first key team members can be crucial. So how did you know you know these. To your co founders. Were the right people. Yeah we have a very We are we have a very complementary skill set to be honest so one of my co founders As a food scientist so she is sort of brains behind the products and my other go founder. He's he's vegan so he's really the very first like target market he will tell us is this is are we going on the right track on and him. Being in the target target audience is obviously very different. mindset in like Evaluating a product from us and then for me and so thereby prosser actually and in science science Whereas my background in finance finance strategy things like that. So i think we were. We complement each other actually pretty well but in terms of how we found the honestly. If founding the plate say we august mutual fence and we thought in the place so let me. How did this happen. you great. that fell into place. So you're all sitting around friday night having a beer and of one of the co founders. Says you know what I'm lactose intolerant. Now and i need. I need Figure out a cheese and the other co founders says. Yeah okay. I'll do that and you say yeah. Let's make a business out of it. How like how does this. How does that flow happen tall. So it's actually is not too different from that. So there's there's this one little backstory to that which is so the scientists who've honors huntings jane on begin so jane would actually agreeing that said university of wealth and while they were doing the mosses there. There was this combination Where anybody can do all students that can actually make anything soy and take part in this competition so you have people making stuff like Soy biodegradable packaging for example. And so they decided to join the home and make a unemployed and they ended up winning the grad students category for that which is which is great and our friends since undergrad and gin and camilla also been friends since undergrad. So at the time. I didn't know camelia but Well and i would say child. Hang on. Just talk about Up updated about ice on which was talking about. This competition. ended up winning in and say you know what if it sounds great. Sounds cool if you guys Do think about trying to commercialize is trying to know Seaport come together together. That's train out and that's that's what happened. So you're hearing about this. Your friends are out this contest. They win this contest. And you're thinking that's a good idea but you know one of my sayings is opportunity. Costs is infinite. You know meaning if you decide to jump in on this you know Vegan cheese product or a plant based food company with your friends. That means you can't Be doing your financial work. You've been doing up to this point or other work. So why take this leap. Yeah i think it's a it's a case open. What do i do now. I lose bill. Even if it doesn't work honestly i it was a time. I don't read news site too much Others of i mean i think we want to gain from just like taking a leap of faith and trained it out Then then. I cited the experience. I'm going to gain from just getting a henry agreeing everything. It's it's truly truly invaluable. So you mentioned you've had some problems during covid you know has there. Have you pivoted at all or is it just supply chain problem. What what problems have covid brought your business and how you change as a result. Yeah so our initial Are interesting launch. Was getting off the bbc segment because we thought that those be a good way to launch gap volume Get the scale. And then launch Because a beautiful product has a bit more expensive of branding. A marketing at so the initial hypothesis was not wrong himself. Go pretty good traction with be. Obviously kobe hit a all of our Bb clans essentially either closed now operating reduced capacity So that kinda kill The bbc Quite a bit so the pivot that really made was associated that into busy So and we also introduced new product because of patching chain issues with With the view and so this is a new as a new product and our new starting point. Its speedy so right now. We're actually doing commerce with being consumer martinez didn't bring building and things like that. So who is your ideal client now. Yeah so we have few different groups Obviously the begins hearings are definitely going to be ideal clients but interesting the and i think i'm also realizing from my own frank group. Which is they are. A lot of flexibility These as they're just people who want to consume more police Products and reduce consumption of anymore. That's for a variety of reasons. It could be for health. It could be full environment. It could be four sustainably here and welfare anything. But it's it's getting a lot more Prevalent yeah and so. Everyone talks about hustle. So what are you doing bill. Your audience is bringing people over and having parties and say sharing your cheese and then just you know by won't buy a couple of packs on the way i get your word out. Yeah that would be ideal. Unfortunately we can't do that right now so cnn if we could do that give out free samples. We will hundred percent. A lot of people would have bought at the scene. Yeah exactly But right now honestly it's just focusing on getting the word out working out. How do we get you get marketing. How do we get paid marking We get hunter marketing work for us. We were doing. The hustle wasn't himself doing outbound marketing. So another like who are reaches psycho costco. Emails So yeah it just gonna keep finding out keep grinding to finding out what's going to work for Free you and how's that going. I mean there's a lot of. I won't say there's a lot but there is some competition in this area definitely for mind share. So you know. How do you get people who may be aware of these other products or aren't aware of these other products to start thinking about you instead of what they would eat normally are trying something what. What's the go to strategy showing recipes attracting with different like whoa. What's Working yes oh recipes for sure because We know that like we just just for the meal kit. We provide kit. But it's not it's not gonna be like super apparent to everyone of what you can actually use it for audience for use it so we do provide a number of recipes on our website and i think when we think about the landscape. Fundamentally fundamentally out product is a bit different from accessing products on the market because most of the most all of the existing products on the market They are available in grocery stores. They are refrigerated and they just. They have like difference. Twelve different pain points with so whether it's like. Oh there's too many ingredients in the Their psych preservatives doesn't hayes. There's some pays and things like that so from different pain points and from the surveys and research that we've been doing we try to really hit home. Our promises trying to address those pain points that people have so as meal kit a subscription based thing where you get so many per month thursday. I just order like bag right now. It's a it's not a subscription based so it's more ecommerce commerce space we are trying to get into about source But we realized that the initial from our mvp packaging. It's it's looks great but it might not be the most Retail friendly so. That's something that we're working on right now hopefully will get a new retail friendlier packaging in maybe four to six weeks. Yeah i'm just gonna throw it to the chat room. What did you think about a subscription box where you get the meal kit A couple of recipe cards and a few extra ingredients to build your recipes for the month. And you know here you go. Here's your pasta spears. This here's that and how to make and you know you get new recipes every month in in your box. Let us know if you'd be interested in that in the chat room. We'll just a little impersonal paul. Here have you tried talking to people about that. We've gone with some suggestions. Around around subscription model something we would definitely consider. Because it's it's definitely. It's quite interesting. And i know they're love successful subscription base you hamas companies But i think for us who successfully execute that we definitely need a variety so variety whether himself horizontally or vertically whether it's different flavors or different recipes with the and we've got Both we only had to reply so far but they all said they'd try that it'd be a good idea so i don't know people are interested that way. They don't have to go back shopping. You're giving them new recipes all the time. It's a little work and you might not be ready for it now. Maybe six months down the road once you get all that feedback but just thoughts feedback so people. How are you getting the word out. And are you doing facebook on social media. Like how do people find you just randomly in the website. Are they in big magazines. Yea right now where. It's three graeme building content marketing so primarily on instagram facebook And pay marketing as well so Facebook ads instagram ads We also had a this like Stack financials finance They had supported local campaign so We had a partial with them on that as well yeah for now primarily is. It's your social media that swear With been doing a lot of our audience providing contend whether it's educational unanswered companion or a food related content. Because like so since you've pivoted to you know meal kit. How as Has your audience or retargeting changed at all like obviously you're going for b. two b. to b. to c. but other like still targeting specifically vegan. You you mentioned flexible marketing towards that. Now yeah so The targeting different When we were doing. Bb actually within. We didn't really focus at all on social media because You won't really see restaurant. Owners following their suppliers on social media for example So we we didn't really use social media at all but now it's it's crucial As usual for us. Because that's where a lot of engagement. Heavens that's where with influenzas. That's where we have people asking questions themselves. The product ask whether it's free whether it's preservative free things So we try to engage with audience that actively on our social media or throw website. So you've been doing this for a little while now. Do you have any tips for founders. I would say Execution it's it's crucial. Anybody can have a good idea. I think a lot of you have radius but it just comes down to how do you execute on it And just having a sort of a heavy the will drive to to go through with it a and see if it works and honesty. The only way to know if it works is the tested Whether you get your friends tested al huguette other random people as long as you get someone has out some And i think the other the other really key learning points that i've learned is that it's it's a completely different thing when you have people interested in fronts versus people who are willing to buy a product. So those are. I think those are two very different concepts. That didn't really hit me until until we started starting studying stuff richardson. Yeah there's a lot of people say. I will buy out by until the actually buy it. You don't you don't really know product works. Yeah sean wise. Say money talks right. You know otherwise. Liking your product is not the same thing as buying your product policy. So it it. It's a false positive a lot of times for entrepreneurs where there early on. they're like. Oh i could sell to everybody in the room but the true test is how many can actually sell for and you know we met at a pitch competition. And you've been doing this. You've done some pivoting now. How important is being able to pitch For entrepreneurs to us extremely important because so far to this eight with actually strep tar business So pitch competition winnings are achieved for a crucial to our operations And i think in general s entrepreneur s founder You need to be able to quote unquote south. And it doesn't necessarily mean you are selling a product the entire. You are selling a whether it's company or your brand Or he'll christianity. Everyone is attractive with different kind of personality. Everyone's attracted to a different brand different kind of bad news. What he's done for. So which is why. I'm saying quote on quote unquote sal. Because it's more of a display of who we really are. That really attracts kind of people kind of audience. That will be a tried to to to who you are. yeah. I i like to say Let's not only pitching is not just to get money or whatnot but it p investors and whatnot are evaluating waiting. You weather your leadership. Can you deliver a message. That people will follow you know. Will you be able to hire the best people. Will you be able to get partners on board. Will you be able to and so they're evaluating all those things so definitely. I'm glad you touched on that. 'cause we do you have any advice on. Startup seeking advisors we. I think we arrived fortunate to have had a number of advisers helping the way we are truly grateful for that I think some veterans We nobody knows your business. Better than you. And i think that's probably generally Also heard from from other founders as well Advisors have a ton of experience like i say advisers are advisors for reasons why the industry experts they've been in the industry for twenty plus years past years And there are in all sorts of ways of doing things are all seats. Relationships are experienced. They'll bring But ultimately ended they when it comes down to execution it comes down to prioritization like we are the ones who have to decide. What advice are you going to take. You have a lot of advice but are you. Actually prioritize was important. What height impact. What's easily achievable but high impact at the same time so it comes down to a trying to or get organized on obvious advises that. You're getting from prices. Sorry needed so you have to be careful when you're talking to lots of different advisors because they'll give you lots of different advice so and yeah you have to decide you are the ultimate you know your business better than anyone you know your customers or at least you should better than anyone and you can decide to do the opposite thing so you know sometimes zagging instead of zigging is the way to go this. Yeah 'cause that's counterintuitive but that's what everybody will be do so why don't i do this over here. So it's it's Adviser their to give you advice to hopefully give you insights into things. You didn't have so you can take away in on challenging you in ways that you wouldn't have done otherwise and then you can take away make the decisions and drive the growth of your company. But you know i often. We'll give advice to people and then say listen. I'm not your target market. Though so go you better go talk to them like you know Some of this stuff doesn't like there's a lot of startups. I work with that. That product or service doesn't make sense to me but you know if your target markets loving it. Then let's go for it. Yeah the honesty. Actually not at this. I think there is value talking to people who are actually not in your target market because initially in a wing wing tran hypothesized market Honestly speaking like you don't have a clear answer. I you have a hypothesis as target market is but when you try and talk to people who think they are not argue market that will either solidify your hypothesis or disprove hypothesis. Let's say you you might Targets for someone else but In the competition Prison create. oh. Yeah no you are treating on terry always or maybe you're lying or you could someday be targets and that really helps Make the whole province target this a bit. More clear and concise. Yeah by talking to people who are outside your target audience. You can also find different niches. Different value propositions for different Buyer personas that you never thought of before so definitely talk to as many people as you possibly can't agree for sure. So what's next for you and neo foods. Yeah so for us We just launched our new kids So the miki product about four weeks. Five weeks ago right now russ the key is getting the word out to as many people as we can but new a we like person. Yeah i i think this product jane how jane came up with it but so We need to get the word out. Definitely to allow more people knicks The next thing is a weenie. Finish rebrand repackaging get into stores. So we are with the sort of a different people with different in different areas and the knicks The priority is getting new cheese back online. So that it's looking promising should have it back online within the next month the next two months we see we see the light at the end of johnson. Were were very excited for a living getting in bounce just from from retailers asking you where when. She's because they've they've tried before that we've given a simple before and and there's just waiting to have an awesome it's great to be in demand And you know knowing that'll be limited stock you can take some preorders. Potentially you know drive a little business that way Also if you gotta be to see business going you know offering your educational. Your consumers the cheese product as well and doing subscription box fair. You know the the cheese is part of the recipe with. Yeah al works out really well. Yeah exactly that's That's something we are thinking about right now I think. I believe that we have recipe. That's in the works that will combine the two products so personally. I'm very excited. How get and. There's a lot of cheese logs and cheese balls Around christmas time so and the holiday season so you might be able to capture some of that market. Yeah we're excited 'cause Holiday season stephanie. Bay one and yeah. We're we're thinking of doing something special. So keep eyes peeled flora holidays specialist value fabulous. If people wanna find out more check out your products and even go online and order. Where do they go. Yeah so they can go to our website. It's neil vital fluids dot com so it's any o. P. h. y. t. o. foods dot com. Yeah our websites. There are buying products there with recipes. have a fantastic articles educating some articles on not the soy or sustainability or even like omega three and. I just put the lincoln chat room. So thank you very much for taking the time to come out today. Hopefully when we're doing live events again we'll get you to come out Actually where are you located. Yeah oh. I'm i'm located in toronto. Okay james quello previous Production facility was actually inkwell. So yeah we're we're we're distributed we're untangle base and before we just hang up. Have you worked with any of the food incubators to See about the kitchen. The toronto's city toronto has one and that kind of stuff Think the only. I think i know of a couple of those one before it was started but yeah i think it caught quiet by the street entrance. Kitchens so. I know there are a couple around. We haven't really looked at before because On a better. We've had like other options. Were did more convenient Closer to so see. I would definitely like scale up with those. The big advantage is obviously you know access to the big kitchens to help you create your products. Yeah for sure. Oh and mentioned this when i was mentioning the website but For for the toronto star audience we actually have a discount code So if you use turano starts that's a ten percent off onto your all lower case caps caps. There you go. There's a discount code for everyone who goes and checks it again. Thank you very much for taking the time to be on startup. talk today. I appreciate it. I know you're part of our community on slack. People can join us there and everyone should check out new foods and new cheese and the meat kit and try something new and exciting and support local startups. This has been great and we'll be tightened soon. Thank you very much. This has been startup talk. Toronto startup podcast for more exclusive content. The episode vault and to be part of toronto starts community visit. Toronto starts dot com. Get your name on the newsletter mailing list and check out our upcoming events. Four more episodes subscribe now recognize the time and work behind the scenes. Put into connecting you with the biggest visionaries entrepreneurs and innovators in toronto by leaving five star review. Join us for more next episode. Toronto's most entrepreneurs and startup community on startup talk.

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What You MUST Know if You Fly Commercial Airlines & The Amazing Benefits of Taking Time for Yourself

Something You Should Know

45:33 min | 2 years ago

What You MUST Know if You Fly Commercial Airlines & The Amazing Benefits of Taking Time for Yourself

"Today on something you should know what you don't know about staying warm when the weather gets cold that could save your life. Also, if you fly, there's a lot about commercial air travel. You probably don't understand. There's this idea there that planes fly themselves and the pilots are. They're just in case something goes wrong. And then they, they jump in like captain sully and save the day. I mean, the idea that an airplane flies itself is like saying that an operating room can perform an organ transplant by itself plus how the annoying people in your life really mess up your brain and how this self-imposed desire to always be productive is actually making you less productive on conscious belief that we should constantly be productive are getting in the way of our ability to use our leisure time if fact of -ly to recharge our batteries and come back to those obligations that do require productivity all this today on something you should know. Hi, I'm Christy Carruthers. Mike's wife here to talk to you about Madison Reed hair-color. I've always gone to a professional salon to have my hair colored, but as you know, it can cost a lot and eat up a lot of time. So I was up for trying Madison Reed. I've heard a lot of good things about it. So why not? Now this isn't like buying a bottle at the drugstore and just squirting and on your hair. It takes a little time in a few steps, but I'm telling you the results are fantastic. This is real salon quality hair color without the time and expense of going to us lawn. I love it and it's all done with ammonia free products. You can feel good about. Imagine you can experience beautiful multidimensional hair-color made in Italy delivered to your door for under twenty five dollars. Hundreds of thousands of women have tried and loved Madison Reed, and I'm sure you will too, and because you're something you should know listener, you'll get ten percent off plus free shipping on your first color kit with the promo code something. Madison dash Reed dot com promo code something and Mike put that link in the show notes for you too. Somethingyoushouldknow fascinating Intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. The weather's starting to cool down in many parts. Even here in California, we're having cooler days as we head into winter and as things cool down. There are some interesting things to keep in mind that will help you not freeze this winter. First of all, you should protect your core when people lose fingers toes and other extremities to frostbite that is self preservation at work. In order to protect your vital organs in your torso, the body stop sending blood to your extremities. If you keep your torso warm, the body will worry about fingers and toes where a hat, the assumption that you you've probably heard this seventy percent of a person's body heat escapes through the head. That's just not true fact is body heat loss relates to how much skin is exposed, not which part of the body you're exposing without said, wearing a hat can definitely. Keep you warm because the more skin you cover up the warmer you will stay and drink more water. Water is actually very effective for retaining body heat, simply put the more water you have in your system, the easier it is to keep warm and that is something you should know. Whenever you fly on an airplane, you probably sit in your seat and wonder about things like, how exactly does this thing fly and is turbulence really dangerous? Why has air travel become such a hassle? Well, the person to ask those questions to is Patrick Smith, Patrick is an airline pilot and has been for some time. He's a blogger. His website is asked the pilot dot com, and he's the author of a book called cockpit confidential. Everything you need to know about air travel. I Patrick welcome. Hi, thanks for having me on. So let's start with this. Let's start with what the hell happened to air traveled. What what because I remember the day I'm not that old. I remembered day when I, you know, I never really look forward to getting on an airplane, but it wasn't the hassle and you didn't hear the stories and what happened. And I'm the first one to admit that air travel has become an undignified. And in many ways, uncivilized experience, it's it's noisy. It's just generally tedious and uncomfortable, and it's all of the things that we know. But you can also make the argument that air travel is in a lot of ways in a golden age right now. I mean, you hear often about people referencing this golden age of air travel that existed somewhere in the past, but nobody can really define where it was exactly or what it was in a lot of ways. I think it's a, it's a mythical construction, and you could actually make the argument that the golden age of flying is right now. And that will sound completely preposterous to people. But let's look at it. Affordability of flying to begin with flying has never been less expensive than it is. Now, the average airfare is about half of what it was twenty five years ago. And that's after you factor in all of those Ansari. As that airlines love and people hate. I know people feel nickel and dime d- by by the add on's fees. But in a lot of ways they, they help keep the price down overall by letting certain people pick certain perks that not everybody wants. People don't remember younger people, especially today how expensive flying is to be when I was a kid in the seventies and into the early eighties, I knew a lot of people who had never been on an airplane. And the main reason for that is because their families couldn't afford to fly. Yeah, that's that's not true anymore. Pretty much everybody can afford to fly most or sometimes then let's let's look at safety. Flying has never been safer than it is right now. And you know you go back to the sixties, the seventies the eighties, we used to see multiple large scale air disasters every year around the world, sometimes ten or more of them every year. And now if there's one major accident in a year, somewhere in the. Globe, it's it's a big story. Flying is far far safer than it used to be. It's far cheaper and in some ways, and this will sound crazy, but it's it's also more comfortable in what do I mean by that? Well, I if you can afford to fly in first or business class, the premium cabins on today's jetliners are more luxurious than than they've ever been. You've got six, seven foot sleeper seats, thirty inch video screens with on demand movies, and TV shows all you can eat or drink. I mean, some airplanes now have bars and buffets and even showers. You know this. You know this, it's it's never been as as wacky and even in Konami class. Now you have on demand video seat back screens. You've got WI fi. These are things that didn't exist even ten or fifteen years ago, but you would have a hard time explaining to that. I can see that image of that doctor being dragged off the United flight telling him this is the golden age of air travel. Well, everything. I just said, notwithstanding, I mean, the indignities of flying are duly noted, and you know the long security lines, the delays, the congestion. There are a lot more planes flying now it is and that that kind of segues into a point that I think sort of interesting, you know, more people are flying than ever before, but we're doing it in smaller planes making more and more departures for airlines. Now, frequency, the number of flights is is the name of the game. And that has unfortunately clogged up our airspace to the point where when the weather gets bad, the whole system, you know, in some cases collapses and you end up with these two, three, four or five hour delays didn't used to be that way. And part of that is the industries. Infatuation with using regional jets instead of mainline jets for so much of their flying. That's something that began internist about twenty years ago, and the major carriers began outsourcing more and more of their domestic flying to these regional affiliates. Now make up about fifty percent of all take off and landings in the United States. The, you know, there's a website that I look at once in a while. It's a flight radar twenty four dot com. And it's a flight tracker thing. And I remember the first time I looked at it and it's it shows airplanes in real time what the planes are, what their destination is and where they are in the sky right now. And the first time I looked at it, I was shocked at how many airplanes are in the sky at any one time. I mean, I didn't even know that there were that many airplanes. It is remarkable and then extrapolate that globally, how many airplanes around the world are in the air at any one point? I think. Mike, that that helps underscore what I was saying earlier about how safe flying is. We have so many more airplanes carrying so many more people, but our safety record globally has never been as strong as it is now in in the US. I mean, man, we we haven't had a. What you would call a large scale major crash involving a mainline airline in the United States major carrier carrier. You're American United delta. Since two thousand and one. I mean, it's it's been eighteen years since we had the kind of air disaster that we used to see once or twice a year, at least. So let's how, how remarkable is that? I mean, almost twenty years that that's that's incredible. That's maybe the biggest single story in all of commercial aviation over the past twenty years. Nobody acknowledges it. And I think one of the reasons is. When things do happen, even comparatively minor incidents, they get, they become spun up in the media and you have so much media now across all these different platforms vying for attention that you know, a plane has a landing gear problem, and it's it's, it's a, it's a spectacle and it. You know, it's in circulation and goes viral as they say for days at a time. And most of those incidents from at least for pilot's perspective, are you know, non events. I think as passengers, people are very sensitive to movement, abrupt movement in the plane either because of turbulence or because of the of turning the plane or so talk about that. I think people would be surprised to know that even in pretty strong turbulence, even in very rough air, a plane is barely moving from its point in space. A lot of people seem to think the plane is plummeting hundreds or even thousands of feet. And really, if you looked at the timid during turbulence, barely moving. At all. I mean, maybe ten feet a plan will almost never turn more than about twenty five degrees of of turn of Bank. Yet. People will swear that they're playing his banking ninety degrees or sixty degrees or some insane number like that. I'd love to bring you into simulator or an robotic airplane and show you what those numbers would really feel like. Of very steep climb in a jetliner is about twenty degrees nose up and a descent is usually somewhere on the order of two degrees or maybe five degrees at most nose down and people hear that. And I said, no way that there's no way that's true. I know my plane was going forty, five degrees nose down towards the ground. It wasn't. It just wasn't. And I wish I could take you into playing show you that. But for the time being tried to take my word for it. I'm speaking with airline pilot Patrick Smith from ask the pilot dot com. He is also author of the book cockpit confidential. Everything you need to know about air travel as the something you should know. Podcast grows and we're looking to expand and hire new people. It's become really clear that the right hire makes all the difference. That's why it's so important to find the right person, but where you could try posting on job boards, but can you really be sure the right person sees. Your job instead find the person who will really help your business grow with linked in when you hear that, doesn't that just make sense. That's where the smart people in your industry go linked in as the world's largest professional network. People go to Lincoln every day to grow professionally and discover job opportunities. And this you'll find interesting most linked in members have not recently visited the top job boards yet nine out of ten members are open to new opportunities. Think about that. You can only reach them on linked in. That's why a new hire is made every ten seconds using linked in hurry to linked in dot com, slash something and get fifty dollars off your first job post that's linked in dot com. Slash something to get fifty dollars off your first job post linked in dot com. Slash something terms and conditions apply. You know, it's always. Those weird noises at night. That makes me think about home security, which is why I'm a big fan of simply safe home security, simply safe is ready for anything that gets thrown at it. If a storm takes out your power, no problem. If an intruder cuts, your phone line simply safe is ready. Say they destroy your keypad of the siren simply safe. We'll still get you the help you need. Yeah, maybe it's overkill. Maybe you don't need to be ready for every worst case scenario, but that's what makes simply safe home security system. So great. It's always ready, no matter what simply save could cost an arm and leg, but it doesn't. Instead they only charge you what's fair, twenty four, seven professional security monitoring for just fourteen ninety nine a month. And there are no contracts and no hidden fees. I recommend SimpliSafe to everyone. I know and I suggest you check out simply safe. So when you hear those funny creeks and noise. As in the middle of the night, you don't need to worry go to SimpliSafe dot com slash something today that simply safe dot com. Slash something to protect your home and family SimpliSafe dot com slash something. And I've put that link in the show notes. So Patrick, here's something I've always wondered about. So because I see this in the movies a lot. So say I'm a passenger on the plane and you're the pilot, and there's a co-pilot and you've all eaten the bad fish and you're all dead now and I have to fly the plane. I'm the only qualified person to fly the plane. Could someone talk me through it like in the movies and I could land the plane, or would I crash and kill everybody? You would crash. There is zero chance of your getting to plan on the ground. And this gets into something that is one of my favorite slash least favorite. Thanks to talk about, and that's. People's understanding of what cockpit automation does or more specific specifically what it doesn't. Do. People have a very vastly exaggerated understanding of what automation does and how pilots interact with that automation. There's this idea there that planes fly themselves and the pilots are. They're just in case something goes wrong, and then they, they jump in like captain sully and save today. That's that's not the way it works at all. I mean, the idea that an airplane flies itself is like thing that an operating room can perform an organ transplant by itself. The obviously you need the experience on the talent and the expertise of of the doctor. In the same goes for the pilot in the cockpit. I think you'd be amazed at how busy cockpit becomes even with all of the automation on, you know. More than ninety nine percent of landings are you know, hands on. I don't wanna use where old fashioned it's just the way they are. One hundred percent of takeoffs are hands on, and there's no such thing in any anywhere commercial aviation as an automatic take off, is it hard to land a plane? I mean, if you've done it as a pilot, a million times is the next one really that hard? Or is it like driving a car? Where after you've done it for several years, it's pretty easy for you. Well, ask a doctor if a particular operation is easy. I think what you're getting at is that things become routine. I think routine is is a good word that it doesn't mean anybody could do it or that it's easy, but your professional trained to do that task. Then at a certain point, it kind of comes natural. What are the other things that people ask you about the most? I've always been surprised at how many people are put off by turbulence by rough air nervous fliers, anxious flyers, especially. But it wasn't until I started writing and fielding questions from the travelling public that I realized what a big deal turbulence was for so many flyers because the, you know, from our perspective, from the pilots point of view, you know, we see it as as comfort and convenience issue, not as a safety issue per se. The number of airplanes have crashed due to turbulence in and of itself. In the whole history of commercial aviation can can be counted on one hand. And I don't want to downplay too much though because every year, yeah, certain number of passengers are injured by rough air, but normally because they're not sitting down with their seatbelts on one they're supposed to be. But as a pilot, when when the plane hits turbulence and it does that thing where it just feels like it drops. Do you are you as the pilot concerned like, oh, we need to do something about this, or do you just like ride ride through and knowing that this will work out for pilots turbulence and Connor is a very hands off thing. You're not fighting turbulence so much as just letting it run its course on the plane. You know, kinda rumbles through it, but. You know the there isn't this this plummeting, and there isn't this wrestling with the controls. Turbulence moves you one way you fight it back the other way. No, it doesn't happen that way. It's it's very hands often and planes are stable to the point where anytime they're disturbed from their position in space by their nature, they want to go back to where they were so the plane can more or less just ride through turbulence on its own. We're not gripping the wheel. We're not. We're not fighting it. I remember hearing that this came as somewhat as a prize to me that it takes longer now to fly. Let's say coast to coast because the airplanes have been slowed down by policy in order to save fuel. The typical jetliner actually flies a little bit slower than was the case forty or fifty years ago, believe it or not, but that's in the name of officiency. Just the planes are designed to fly more efficiently and use use less fuel. But normally if you're if you're slowed down a Flying Cross country, it's because of air traffic constraints. There are just so many planes and traveling at slightly different speeds up your behind one airplane that's at such and such a speed. You may have to slow down slightly to preserve the the choreography of, you know which plans are on which routes sometime there's flexibility, but sometimes air traffic control just assigns you a speed because that's all they can do because of the ballroom of planes. No. So air traffic control tells you how faster slow to fly sometimes? Yes. And how much pressure is put on pilots to to get off to get out of that gate on time and land that plane on time while it's not pilot specifically, it's it's the whole team. It's it's the gate staff and the flight attendants and the pilots and the ground crew, you know? Sure. We're under some pressure to get the craft off on time. I think last attested I saw industry-wide in the US something like eighty five percent of flights arrive on time and considering how many flights are now being pushed through the system. That's that's a pretty good number. And of course, no, that the numbers will vary region to region. Some airports are just notoriously more delay prone than others as a pilot. You don't. Typically, I imagine have a lot of contact and a lot of time to have contact with passengers, but but but what do you like to hear? I mean, do you like to hear people go, hey, good landing, or, hey, nice. Take off. Is there anything that like pumps you up in like? Yeah, I did well today. Oh, any any compliment or any just smile and thank you. And by the way, passengers are more than welcome to come up to the cockpit and and say Hello and maybe get a little tour. Any point at any point before or after the flight, you know? No, you can't come up during the flight as was the case in the old days. But as long as things aren't too hectic or too busy before the flight you're more than welcome to come on up and have a look around really. So that's not a bother to you. You know, there's, there's a disconnect, you're in the cockpit, you're physically separated from the cabin so to to have that interaction in a lot of cases just just feels nice. What is the difference between the pilot and the co-pilot? Are they equally qualified? And why is one the co-pilot and one the pilot? This is one of those kind of perpetual misunderstandings that people have the idea that there is the pilot and then the Culp Lila te who is, you know, maybe somehow not a real pilot. And that's that's not the case. I mean, I'm a co-pilot I'm I'm a first officer, the colloquially weeks and we say co-pilot, but both of the the people in the cockpit and they're all are always at least two, our full-fledged pilots who are qualified to operate the airplane in every regime of flight. The captain has the ultimate responsibility and the bigger check to go with that. But we both essentially have the same duties and we both fly the airplane. If you're say flying from New York to Chicago to Los Angeles, the one pilot will be the hands on control pilot for the first leg and on the other pilot will be the hands on control pilot for the the second leg performing the takeoff, and the landing co-pilots take off and land airplanes all the time. So when you go on a flight, Wendy, you get to be airport. And do you as as a pilot or first officer do you really inspect the plane? Or do you leave that to the people that do that or. What's your prior to the plane leaving the gate? What is it? You do great question. And like so many things in Apia. It depends. It varies though. One of the big variables here is, are you doing a short haul domestic flight or a long haul international flight for a short haul run of the mill domestic flight. You know, I like to be at the airplane somewhere around an hour before departure. There are. There are a series of checks that we run through the maintenance personnel also run through a separate series of Jackson and inspection. So it's different. Things are going on in different different personnel are performing those Jackson tests. There's paperwork to go through and review that sort of thing for an international flight. My carrier, our requirement is to be present an hour and a half before departure. And we typically go to a briefing room where we have little cubicle setup where we go through the the, the flight plan patch. Page, looking at the root and charting it out on a map and all that sort of thing. Now, there's a lot of paperwork involved and also on the longer flights any flight at my carrier. Anyway, over eight hours, we bring three pilots. We'll have a captain and two co pilots to first officers. And then once we're in the air, we work in shifts. So one pilot will be on break with always a minimum of two pilots in the cockpit and on even longer flights, we'll bring four pilots and work in teams of two. Well, it's so interesting and it's what I think people wonder about all the time when they fly is kind of what's going on behind the scenes and I appreciate you filling in those blanks. Patrick Smith has been my guest. He is airline pilot and he has a website called ask the pilot dot com. And the name of his book is cockpit confidential. Everything you need to know about air travel and there is a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Patrick, okay. Take care of, you know, I've worked on projects and with businesses with. Great ideas, but the issue always comes up. Okay. So now how do we reach the right people? Well, when you're marketing b. two b. two people in a particular industry linked in marketing solutions is the answer Lincoln marketing solutions drives brand awareness generates great leads and builds long-term purposeful relationships advertising on Lincoln's network of more than five hundred and seventy. Five million members is precise and powerful with the ability to effectively target the right message to the right people while they're in that professional mindset, right, went when people go on linked in there in that professional mindset and that results in higher quality leads and higher brand awareness. I speak from experience when I say that when it comes to marketing your business, it's all about reaching the right people at the right time. Lincoln marketing solutions is the way to do it four out. Listen to this four out of five customers who. Are on linked in our decision makers at their companies to redeem a free one hundred dollar linked in ad credit and launch your first campaign go to linked in dot com. Slash something that's linked in dot com. Slash something for your free one hundred dollar ad, credit terms and conditions apply just now just before I recorded this, I finished using this great new app on my phone. It's hotel tonight. Here is why it is so cool and why you should get it on your phone right now. Hotel tonight partners with unique hotels to help them sell their unsold rooms, which means you get incredible deals. You see Bouteine an independent hotels have a lot more flexibility to discount than the big chains do. So you get incredible values at really great hotels. Now their name is hotel tonight, but you can actually book in advance as well as for tonight. And this is really cool. Can book a room in ten seconds, just three taps and a swipe no long, endless lists of zillions of hotel choices hotel tonight shows you the best deals at the best hotels with short profiles and pictures of each. And if you use the promo code something, you can get twenty five dollars off your first eligible booking. So do it right now while you're thinking about it, download the app hotel tonight to your phone right now, and then use the promo code something to get twenty five dollars off your first eligible booking hotel tonight. It's amazing how many people claim. They're tired. You know, you ask someone how you doing and you often hear, oh, I'm so tired, tired fatigued, burned out too much to do not enough time to do it. It's an epidemic, and it's it's no way to live. So what can you do about it? Well, you can start by listening to my next guest who has looked into the science of why this is happening and what you can do about it. Jamie Grumman is professor of organizational behavior and a senior research fellow at the university of wealth in Ontario Canada, and he is the author of the book boost the science of recharging yourself in an age of unrelenting demands. Hey, Jamie welcome. Thank you. Thanks for being here. So what's the problem here? Why is everybody so tired? Has everyone always been tired and we're just now complaining about it more or what's going on. Well, I think the problem is if you just ask people, if they're tired, they say there's research out of the states. The suggests that on any given day, but forty percents of people say they're tired and forty. Two percent of those people say that a compromise their job performance. So it's a big problem. And if you go around the globe and look at the research that's been done internationally, find the same thing so know numbers ranging from, you know, lows of, say, ten percent up to thirty or forty percent. As I said, you know, where does it come from? I think I automatically there are a lot of reasons, but I think part of it is the simple fact that people work more of these days. We put in longer hours than we did say, fifty years ago, we have dual income families, so there's just less leisure time to get things done. So our our lives are crammed. The other big thing I think is that we live in a capitalist society and one of capital every every economic and political system comes with it. Certain assumptions that underlie the system and one of the assumptions that underlies capitalism is the idea of productivity and efficiency and to be sure when you're working or engaged in whatever productive activity or engaged in you wanna be productive. You wanna be efficient. You want to get done as well as effectively and as quickly as you can be productive. But what happens is, I think this idea of productivity and efficiency gets under our skin. It gets into our bones. And so we find ourselves in moments of leisure in the evenings or on the weekends or vacations. And if we're not being productive, we feel about we feel guilty. I mean, I know I can tons of people who if they're not doing something productive, whether shopping doing laundry, they're sitting around and join themselves and they, they'll say, I feel so guilty. I should be doing something. Oh, I think that that applies to everybody at some point. I think everybody feels that way. I know I felt that way plenty of times when I, especially when they're. Is something that you know you probably need to do and yet could probably wait, but, but you know, it's it's undone and it just hangs there that's actually logical phenomenon study for decades. And if you haven't finished something stays in your head and you feel bad that you're not doing it and, but that's therein lies the rub. That's the problem. The problem is that we feel guilty and and we feel that there's something wrong. Well, we need to do is get over that and recognize that that these unconscious, they really are unconscious beliefs that we should constantly be productive are getting in the way of our ability to use our leisure time if ectively to recharge our batteries and come back to those obliga- Sion's that do require productivity being more productive. The issue though, I think is that for many people, even if this has become their life where they. Are tired and stressed out and exhausted all the time. It becomes their normal. And yeah, it's not great, but it's not so painful that there's a big urge to change. You'd just muddle through. I think you're absolutely right. I think oftentimes what happens is people don't change until they hit a brick wall, you know, when does the drunk realize he has a drinking problem when he wakes up in the gutter on his family's left them, but that's really unfortunate, isn't it right? We want to, it'd be better to take a step back. Take a deep breath and take a look at the life. We're living and consider is this the life I want? I is it my objective to get to my eighty fifth birthday and think, wow, productive. I was I I don't think most people would be proud of that. They may be happy with their accomplishments, but I think there's a lot more to life than just working as much as you can. And I think the beauty of being alive comes from making the most of the time we have and making the most of that time requires taking the time to decompress recharge your batteries and get back to your best. I'll take issue with a little of that just because we've talk. About this before there are some people who derive a great deal of joy and rejuvenation from their work and to tell them they need to go be idle and do something else I think is wrong because that's where they get their boost. That's where they get their energy. They love what they do, and they're happy to do it. I had this come up a couple of years ago. I was doing a talk on his topic for a group of lawyers, and one of the lawyers put his hand up and said the same thing. I really love what I do. I get energy from it, isn't it better for me to work on weekend and not do what you're telling me, which is fine. I intentionally find some some leisure time. Isn't it better for me to just keep working? And I said, this won't surprise. You know, now here's where research becomes valuable because instead of just having a, you know, a contest of wills or just a debate of ideas. We can look what the what the evidence suggests and there's two studies actually. So the first is one study looked at people. Who were high and low in terms of how engaged they were at work. And what they found was that the people who were more engaged actually ended up benefiting more from transforming their downtime up time. So they benefited even more from making sure that they used their leisure time effectively than the people who weren't engaged. So because when you're engaged and you love what you do, you are using so many so much more resources. Right. That's exactly what engagement is. Right? You're bringing your full self to your rule. You're fully engaged by all of your neurons are firing, you're focused, you're energetic and you're gonna get tired. And so it's those people in particular who benefit even more from finding some leisure time than people who are less than gates. Now, this does not mean that you have to restrict yourself, you know, from Friday evening Monday morning, you cannot do anything if you enjoy your work that you know if this is what's gonna make you happy. I would say find a little bit of time to do a little bit of it, but. If you want to be good at what you do. Again, the research is very clear on this that if you take some time to replenish yourself, you're going to come back to your obligations more effective. So if you love to do and you wanna be good, you wanna take some time. The other study on this topic looked at workaholics, and the same pattern was found the people who were higher in workaho, Liz them benefit even more from enjoying high quality, leisure time that people who are not workaholics again, because those resources get depleted by the work, all his them and you need to replenish it. You said a few minutes ago that you know ask yourself, is this the life you really want? And I think some people would say, well, maybe not, but this is the life I have, and so I've got to do what I've gotta do, and and when talking about that thing that you know has to be done and you're not doing it and you feel guilty well, maybe you should just go do it, right? Yes. The challenge I think is that. That becomes a habit. They find themselves in a life that they don't particularly like they feel drained depleted. They don't feel happy and fulfilled and they just stay to themselves. Well, this is it. This is my life. There's nothing I can do that mindset makes me sad because there's usually something you can do. Not always. Sometimes you're stuck, but I think most of the usually when I speak with people about this sort of thing and they say there's nothing they can do often more frequently. What happens is people say to me, well, I just don't have any leisure time and I say to them that that's not true. You do. I know you feel proud to say that you don't have any because it makes you feel very productive in the world. We live in sort of a sign of pride say you have none, but it's not true. You do have some, you're just not using it and you don't like to admit that you have and this is the same thing with the life? Yes, sometimes you just have to get stuff done. Absolutely. I mean, there are times I'll go through periods where I'll work, you know, eighty hours a week for months on end, but I really look forward to when that's over. And it's because it's when it's over and I can go back to having a slightly more balanced life that I feel better. You know, you know, they'll saying. With whoever the most toys at the end of their life wins. You can't take those toys heaven, you know, it's not just about work, but because our world view in our mindset is so set, where do you even begin to do what you're talking about? Because if you tell someone who you're talking about, you know, take a week off or don't work Saturday or Sunday, or you know. They look at you like deer in the headlights. The first place I began as I say, what kind of life do you want? So let's go hypothetical person work with me on this. So let's take over what kind of what kind of life do you want? What will give me an answer? What what might they say to me, I wanna life. That is what I don't know. Well, see that. I think that's part of the problem too is I don't know that they know what they want, maybe they don't want this, but that doesn't mean they do know what they want. But the issue, I mean, who was it? Who said he? I think he was Plato. Our Leon examined life is not worth living. You know if you consider the fact, you know, if you're lucky you get eighty ninety one hundred years here. And as far as we know, we never come back. We've got this opportunity to make the most of their time here. We want to if someone says, this is my life when I do I would send them. Okay. Take a minute. Take minute or take a day or take a week or take whatever time you need. And I'll think to yourself, what do I want in the time that I have remaining? What do I wanna make of this time? And is there a way that you can start to make that happen? Yeah, but I think a lot of people would say, but I don't know what that means. What do I do? Okay. So if I'm going to do what you're saying, starting this Saturday instead of getting up and going to work like I normally do, what am I gonna do? I don't have. I don't play sports. I don't. What do I do? Okay. It's the first thing I would say is think back over your life to those moments where you felt most fulfilled the moments where you felt full of joy. Let's start there just to start to get a baseline of sorts of activities that fulfil. So start with that start with thinking about. You know, activities you've done that really made you feel fantastic. And now start looking for themes, what sort of activities were those? What was the? What was the emotion? What was the maybe you felt very accomplished? Maybe you felt really overjoyed maybe felt like you were giving back. And I think when you look back over your life and your experiences and you begin to to think about what are the activities, the experiences that make me feel like my time here is worthwhile, whatever that means to you. I think that's the place to begin. So if people don't know what to do, they can look backward. The other thing they could do is look into the future so think, okay, how much time do I have left? So I'm fifty. So how much time do I have? Let's say I have. I don't know. Let's say another thirty years in the time remaining. If I'm starting from scratch, what do I want to do by the time? I'm no longer here. And so instead of looking backwards I'm looking forward and again, I just sort of brainstorm creatively and I'll tell you shoot for the moon, like, don't restrict your. Self to the life. You're currently living. Just blue sky, you can think whatever you want. If you could do whatever you want it at all, you've got thirty years left. What do you wanna -ccomplish what do you wanna do in that time? And that could mean sitting on the beach and collecting seashells or it could mean I wanna give a speech at United Nations, or I wanna make much money as I can in the time remaining. I who am I to say what goal is better or worse, but as as a psychologist, who thinks a lot about the quality of life, I would say that I think it'd be who's everyone to take a minute to consider what it is they want out of this gift of being alive before it's over. Yeah. But then what do you do? I mean, then how? How do you know if you're doing this? Right. How do you? Where's the? Where's the test? What's the line that, oh, now, oh, now I get the only thing you can do experiment. It's like when you're young and you're trying to figure out what job is the best job for you can't no, no matter how many. National tests. You take, you can't know what job is going to suit. You best going to float your boat until you do it, and so you go and you experiment and you try to everything on for size, and you see what you like, and you see what you don't like. And you see which ones do you better? You, which ones you're good at. The only option there is, is you just experiment with alternatives and eventually the answer comes to you. It's at the beauty of it. You know, the world has a way of meeting you halfway. If you make the effort to try to figure out how to live your life to the fullest. The world had the way of helping you and the answer comes to you as self evident as this may seem particularly lead to you, what's the payoff? What's the? What do you get for doing this? You get to take full advantage of your life. Every one of us has some some genius, some brilliance that is exclusive to us some combination of brilliance, and if we. If we, if we realize those manifest brilliance is we. Feel great. We make a difference in the world. We actually is our potential which is, you know what a lot of you know, love humanistic psychologists say that that's our, that's our purpose here is to achieve self actualization to to do in this world. What is our unique purpose to walk our unique path? Every one of us has unique objective to achieve, and so many of us never achieve it. So many of us have no idea what it is. So many of us don't even ever try because we don't know that it's possible because we get so stuck in a rut. We got stuck in the rut of go to school graduate, get a job, pay your mortgage. Have kids get old and die, and we don't take advantage of the fact that there's there's more than that, right? And that's the important thing to keep in mind and keep on the radar because it's so easy for that to fall off the radar. Jamie grummin has been my guest. He is a professor of organizational behavior and a senior re. Search fellow at the university of wealth in on -tario Canada, and he's author of the book boost the science of recharging yourself in an age of unrelenting demands. There's a link to his book in the show notes per sheet. You being here. Thanks, Jimmy. This has been a real thunder. So think for a moment, are there people in your life that you would consider irritating? Well, if so, you might wanna limit your exposure to them researchers at the university of southern California, say annoying. People could be messing up your brain, whether we realize it or not, we tend to mirror the people were interacting with. And if the person you're interacting with is a jerk, it throws our brain curve ball. When we're around people, we don't like our who are different than us. Our brains actually slowdown in a mental act of protest. The good news is the brain damage is temporary. Not only will you get back to normal when the jerk leaves your life, your brain activity can actually speed up and improve by interacting with someone you really like. And that is something you should know. Please subscribe to this podcast. So you never miss an episode subscribing is. Free and the episodes are delivered right to your phone or other device. So you never miss one. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

Patrick Smith Mike Carruthers United States captain sully Madison Reed officer Intel California university of wealth Christy Carruthers professor of organizational be Italy Konami Lincoln university of southern Califor Apia Jackson
#561 The Race to Identify All Living Things

Science for the People

1:15:47 hr | 8 months ago

#561 The Race to Identify All Living Things

"We've had one case where an individual had open a box of our bags stash egos and found A worm inside one of the statues through in life scanner vol submitted. It was analyzing Kim back with species and they contacted the producer. Say I found a bug in there and they said happens from time to time. It's most likely this this species known pest of a statue in California where it was grown but the DNA Barcode said it was a different species. One that was usually found in Costa Rica this week on science for the people we are diving into the world of DNA bar. Coding will learn about international bar. Code of life with Dr Dad had cheaper by associate professor in the Department of Integrative Biology and the center for biodiversity nomex universities. Well then it will be discussing how you can contribute to the field of DNA bar. Coding Sajida Retinas Ingham Associate Director of Informatics and act shocked professor at the Center for by Mix at the University of wealth with me is Dr my dad. Cheaper by Raddad welcome decides the people who are you. Are you happy to be with you today? Sumer Daddy you represent Hata on the Scientific Steering Committee for something called the International Bar. Code of life consortium and from now on we're going to refer to that as I will for shorts on in fact he helps establish it. Can you give us a brief overview of apple and your role with it? Yeah so I bowl is A coalition of scientists and the science managers from round awards. That a goes back to quite a number of years Almost eighteen years ago this idea using DNA sequences to identify organisms Started to to build up a around the publication that came from Polymer Slab at University of wealth and that time I joined the lab Early into doesn't treat to To work there as a postdoctoral fellow and obviously like any other New Ideas It went up and down in terms of reciptivity and the funding and so on and we had quite a long journey to to get here Like bar-coding is now established as a an identification method scientific approach for identifying by versity. And the the number of initiatives and I bowl is The largest one and the the one that is rooted in The origin of this from university at G- wealth and And again It's it's not a sprint. The around awards and marketing is taking each has evolved and is like using a more. Modern technologies in genomics computational approaches But the concept and the idea is to to facilitate understanding by versity pretty use of the DNA and information and so up so we are Now establish ing various types of Programs and an able is sort of an umbrella consortium to to manage those either in different countries or regions or depending on the applications. They'll various types of projects and the project organizations for For conducting bar-coding and and making use of this this approach detail about your personal involvement with Apple. Yes so as I mentioned after I Finished my PhD. In University of Ottawa. I actually attended a presentation by by Paul at in Ottawa and a museum of nature and I decided to join his team At that time obviously this was the very earliest stage and the we were building the lab and so I think it was It was a great opportunity for me but also a risky one because it was a new idea new project but I felt like an contribute given my expertise in molecular and buying for Matic's and and so So I moved to quell as postdoctoral fellow and and I I helped to Paul and other colleagues To to sort of establish a bar-coding give networks and international work within eyeball and But I also built my own research program a transition into a professor position and the I established my lab. My lab is Mostly involved with With the newer sequencing technologies and and using bar-coding in larger scale environmental ecological analysis and So get stabbed new approach called Meta bar-coding which takes advantage of the newer sequencing take. Jenny does not require Separating organisms so it's sort of derivative of bar-coding but still sort of rooted in the concept so I So I continue my research. I have a research group With THE POST. Docs graduate students take actions and as as you mentioned on also affiliated the Department of Integrity. Biology I do change and in in various academic activities but we didn't eyeball I I've had various roles in terms of charing different COMEDIANS and currently I I I coordinates the the Air Force that be having Canada with various projects various agencies and again. I sit on the Science Committee and the I work closely because the viable is placed is based in G- wealth and or center for by the rest of the genome makes so there's a group of less that are very much associated with this initiative from from the beginning of faith and And we will help The scientific community or agencies NGOs industrial whoever is interested in this to build linkages to educate them to to do Rnd in various ways to to get the message across them to To build this from what I understand. The major purpose of able is to create a database right database of these bar codes for various species that can be shared among scientists around the world. Is that correct? Yes it is it is. It is an important part of this system so in order to be able to identify unknown specimens. You collect in your backyard or you know in a in a site that you have. Cc's that are endangered or you want to monitor various by diversity so one key part of the system is to have reference to compare two sequences of those Bar Library or DNA Barcode Librarian so it's central to Domitian and by building this Reference Library You will be able to go back to the same places or when you go to some other sites and you find some unknown samples. Allow you to Didn't fight them very quickly. So you can. You can compare this to like you have your museum samples or your herbarium samples. So these are the digital sort of sequence information that are also connected to the the images of the organisms to their Reference sort of data and and also other types of data and so it's a central for accessing all of his information. It's kind of like a facebook for biodiversity but you have all DNA information that you can compare against When you have unknown specimen so that's That's the central emission for able and for bar-coding. Because it's it's really important to to be able to connect the the organisms that defined to the knowledge that we have about the biology or ecology organism. So that's the reference library allows us to to to make this identification using Barker's I wanted to in a bit into the motivation behind creating this reference library. Why do you think it's important to identify as many species as possible? Well From a scientific standpoint the species are units of biodiversity and like there is considerable debate about the definition of species. I mean that's a oven in the scientific community but by and large we have accepted as theses to be the units And that's been studied and used for Unders of years and sort of the modern taxonomy. He's like built around this concept of the species and so In order for us to I mean species identification is central to any any type of biological analysis or inference or question from scientific standpoint from socio economic Side of things from the food that we consumed two to pharmaceuticals that come from different organisms Many of them you need to have a certainty around but organisms they are and the identification becomes ready for that or when it comes to infectious diseases. You know pathogens pests so we really need to To understand the the biological units. That's a that either are useful for us or are harming harming us or our Key to our ecosystems function and and beach. And so so that's why Species identification. It's it's so key and so and that's not been easy For many many a applications or questions and like we are really not so capable of sticking any any sample. Let's say a gram of soil or Earlier water and just very quickly. Say What these are. There are any adm. Any harmful organisms are any organisms that we need to protect or are there any and then it gets more complicated than you want to move into a monitoring scenario and that requires repeated sampling and identification to To be able to monitor the change or or have a surveillance of what is going on in and Insight or unequaled system so that requires even more robust Identification approaches. So you. Can you can Definitely use Expertise of various different groups that the researchers or in this case taxonomy Or some of the Saudi auto researchers that a learn how to identify identify various groups of organisms. requires a lot of time and the logistically might not be easy to to do this So we need to move into approaches. That will allow us to widen defy organisms Faster and escaped to the applications that require like allows us to do monitoring of their changes so That's really an important motivation for for bar. And what and and the reason the got the quantum of attention obviously after a period of any method has limitations so And I I can say that. We didn't delimitations of bar-coding even it's an extremely powerful to to identify to help us identify by units of biodiversity on various systems for various application. So it's as both sides and the socio economic anti I think that's been for both cases we have lots of Example Safar is GONNA fight. I think before we go any further. We need to think it'd be help going through the process of Coating can you explain? How do you need? Bar-coding WORKS THE PROCESS. It starts by by sampling. Oftentimes samples are a biological samples. You know like an insect or Or release Or A or a mushroom and we need a very small amount of biological sample to obtain the DNA from samples so typically if we get a small insect small tissue sampling insects that you know they go to museums and and being curated Like the media various small Piece of tissue off that insect and also have methods that we don't even need to the actual Fishe weekend The organism into a buffer into licensed but for sort of solved the N. A. Into Solution. And then we can use that solution to access the DNA I want to be have the DNA win. We have the sample and abby votes way biochemical process to extract the and and then we use a molecular And diametic reaction called polymerase chain reaction. Pc At it's also using a lot of diagnostic kosice as a and that will allow us to To to zoom in on the markers. Dna Barcode sort of the gene or genes and an amplify that signal that DNA. So there's like a photocopy machine for for the DNA so we we make a lot of copies offense within the Reaction to or Was very small scale. These are all happening in micro leader and and then Then is the the reading of the DNA with the DNA sequencing. That is another sort of Reaction Again. It's various types of technologies now exist for it and to be read that then be basically Get the AC gt sort of alphabets of the A. A in In something that is very similar to a text file that the there some quality scores associates and to it and in that that will be or digital Signature of of the species barcodes and which is very very small portion of its genome. That'd be read for identifying the organism and that goes to the database together with all these other Meta data and images of the essence and the end is a store there and and this process repeats. Sent the you know usually be doing this in Sets of once we get the specimens is sort of is a logistical Workflow that the we we will sort of bring these to PCR Extraction UCR sequencing. But it happens in units of ninety six or three eighty four in a high throughput fashion and So that it facilitates Scaling it up and being able to To process large number of these In inequality like the one in wealth or in other facilities around award the that. This is happening so you can't really do this at any scale. I mean I explaining it more on a larger scale but it's ten B- done on a much smaller number of the specimens that one needs to identify and currently our technology that allows us to do this in In a lab or in a in a in a more so the for the same points that you want identified the audience in the field in a remote sites but but the process is very similar. essentially you need to extract the DNA apple fi signal and sequence. Read the sequence and and then places the database and it's an unknown a specimen you will go to a database or use a computational tool that will allow you to compare your unknown sequence to all those other sequences that are in the database the process of informatics which which is like a database search But out there algorithms that will allow us to put some certainty on these identification. A WE CAN. We can say with like even use some similarities and relatedness of these organisms to to for example say what What group they are related to save. You don't even have the exact match in the database. He can say what is the closest match and that that's a very helpful given that you may not have the exact same organism library by a brand new species using DNA bar. Coding as happened before. Yes I mean. It's a part of the excitement about the having a new tool is discovering new species or discovering new a unified adversity and And actually was like one of the big a motivations for for using the bar-coding for research community is also being able to go through all these specimens that they collect in various parts of the war and it helps them identify them and discover new species or or in many cases. We have had the species that using the characteristic morphological physical appearance oppose specimen sort of more traditional conventional approaches Could not say how many easily all put them as one species Use the DNA BAR. Coding and the you will see that they are Difference in their DNA barcode sequences. Then you will go and data other types of information from their habitats from the food they eat or a a or or give it like a closer look under the microscope and like like look at their characters more carefully and you will see that the yes you are. You have more than one species in this group of specimens there some really key publications and discoveries that came from bar and continues to Because we have a lot of unknown by diversity on on the planets and and a key application of the. Barcode Easter facilitates identifying those and and and and allows us to better understand. You know where. We need to conserve By diversity and and a again you cannot protect something that you can't measure. So that's the key thing for us to be able to bring those a robust measurements Geena bar-coding for For various sectors of society that Interested in are mandated to protect by An environment of samples needed to collect DNA. How big do these samples have to be the? We can work with a very wide range of samples. Remember here you're sampling for the N. A. and the N. As a very very tiny molecules and is many many copies of it. Essentially every cell in our body carries the N. A. and so we We need very small amount of samples and like if you have like a little love fly a typically a small leg off a fly is is enough for us and there are some samples that we can't even easily see with the Iraq is but still there is plenty of DNA in those so So yeah and it can be a partial sample from small leave for example As I said all the different types of tissues in different organisms they do have DNA and there are examples of using bar-coding in And and various types of samples. So it's A. It's a very robust in this gate. So you don't need for example to have flowers of the plants to be able to say what plans they are The same way that You know We we do this in sort of traditional approaches You can have like any type of tissue and once you read the DNA Barcode. You'll be able to tell what these this but it's not necessary to harm the organism or the specimen In order to clocked at CNN. Is that right? I mean it's There is the sample collection parts and there are mentors that people have come up with in terms of getting DNA of of organisms with without sort of especially on the larger ones. You know like like saliva or blood. You know large mammals into that that type of organism split on tiny life like bugs or on some other groups you. You'll get an actual physical specimen an individual and that goes into the museum for curation and views a very small portion of that but for bigger ones that We WanNa make sure that We have methods that are not in not invasive to those organisms lacks get into the research programmes viable so under the umbrella eyeball. There are three major programs marco. Five Hundred K. bio scan and the planetary biodiversity. He give us a brief overview of each of these programs. You had the These are actually the sort of the continuum of bar-coding initiative in Indiana. Able consortium so they are not like coexisting programs. They're like Barcode the five hundred K. Was what the the The program has mandates and Earlier years of eyeballed. I think it's sort of a started. The Fire Remember List Two thousand twelve. I'm not sure about that but it's a it's a project that ended and And now Finished by five hundred thousand theses being bar-coded And and twenty five countries participated and So Bio Stan is building on. The success of this project listens learned and also based on new analytical capabilities of of sequencing in and and and the more advanced buying for Matic's so I was standards the current project that will Will bring this Coverage OF THIS E C. Two point five million by two thousand twenty six and and then the planetary by the risk commission is sort of moon moonshot project which is Sort of again. You're building the capacity and sort of law moving towards launching the planetary by Mission that is It's hopefully Going to deliver the Barcode the coverage for all this all the EUKARYOTIC multicellular species and by two thousand forty five. That's being produced. These programs is it accessible to the public or is only meant to be used by scientists. Know it is accessible to public champion from the beginning that's been the mandates and most of our funding give Is is actually a coming from public sources and we We produce these sequences. They go the database. They go through a validation phase and they become available to public and many of them also will be published within scientific care in scientific journals in the papers and various reports so The the goal is to have a sequences available. You know in In various forms in sequence itself you know in obligations information comes publications and so on Israel hire people using the data from this database aside from identifying by diversity. There is quite a lot of research. Should that's rooted in Indiana bar-coding as I mentioned there's a scientific questions that are in various disciplines they do require a robust species identification by diversity. Identification and I could give you a couple of examples. You know for example in in understanding the ecosystem health and the status of ecosystems or researchers use these groups of organisms that they called them bio- indicators and this is some of the work that I do in my lab is as focused on this and For example in freshwater we have these tiny lowery of macro invertebrates that's been used as a bio indicator or group and but if you If you if you access these organisms and look at them you'll see that it's not that easy to characterize and the models that he ecologist builds a an environmental scientists bill for this file monitoring a program is all the dependent on species identification education of the by diversity of these bio- indicators because essentially they respond to environmental change differently. You know if there's a chemical in the water if some changes in the water flows so these bikes the Their their Their composition of biodiversity changes because it's their habitats changing and this has been a extremely useful approach but also a bottleneck especially in countries like like ours in Canada to scale these types of monitoring projects so bar-coding has come to really eight this and then were by by stabbing the Barcode reference libraries of vibe indicators and we have a good coverage for these in Canada and in some other countries so that means that now we can go to streams and rivers and just get some sediment samples and the envy out even going to get all the organism separated and one by one sequence to we can just use now. Newer technique called Next generation sequencing and established this method marketing persevere using Barcode Library to identify all these organisms through this approach of Sequencing of of the sediments and and provide that information to to Like for example environment that climate change is one of for partners in this project or to various Ngos we worked with the WWF. Canada of warfied living makes Canada and so and and or any other industries that the working in the region unregulated to to protect the water water resources in the region and work with again regulators in this case environment and Climate Change Flannigan and use this approaches as well so this is one example. The other one that the again is sort of focused on a very targeted species. Identification is to identify organisms that are considered endangered or invasive alien organisms in the system again We can we can use a barcode library if you have a signature of those in your library than any unknown specified calms You can very quickly Bar coded and matched against the library and see if they belonged to check myself. You're protected species or invasive species or passed in Agricultural Systems. So so yeah these are some of the sort of more kind of society will application. But they do also have a lot of scientific. Jim A kind of inquiries that are based on Dna Barcode and to end about coding itself is is is a research program that A number of researchers are working towards making these system better from sampling to sequencing To and also a lot of work that goes an An informatics and computational methods that are used to To identify and make sense of all. These data is generated in very very large volume another application of DNA bar coding that falls within the realm of conservation. I wanted to discuss with. You is preventing wildlife crime which is the illegal trade sale of wildlife species. It's been suggested that the Cova nineteen virus can be traced back to one or more bats that were illegally sold at a wet market in. Wuhan China do you think of our coding could help prevent future pandemic like this one will be mean identification is key for any type of regulation and I know that the illegal wildlife frayed or or or application similars like the the sources of food in fish markets or in fish sort of seafood sort of market. It's been one of the key applications of bar-coding the one that got quite a lot of attention so depending on the system You know can be used for identifying a biological samples and and again. I think it's it's an area that I've seen of publications To to use bar-coding to quickly and Identify Specimens and the and see they belong to a group that they need to be regulated or a group that Unique to prevent. Its you know its use in in various ways You know a big another bicket application related to this a natural health products as well. So it's a again we that worked on this Applications and I've seen a lot of respected in them in various sectors of society One of the aims of able is to support a policy change for conservation and the sustainable use of biodiversity does that include international or national policies regarding wildlife trade. Well I mean the the policies Obviously he will take advantage of the available science and the and the wind we start. Advancing Science We would like to be able to presented in in the framework of different policies. And the like a couple of years ago I I I represented I bill in the C. D. The The the United Nations By the Rusty Convention and And there is a lot of discussions about how newer approaches like bar-coding can Can Help Facilitates policy frameworks at different levels from local to national and international work with the own agencies in Canada? We'd their scientists science managers with their policy experts to inform them about what the Like these technologies and approaches can provide and then You know has its own sort of process Of being adopted in into policy or or help shape up You know policies. So it's something that the again the rea- via scientists you know we would like to make sure that the provides You know what is you know doable? What is feasible And the pros and cons of different approaches publications in reports presentations and an important aspect of it is due to ensure that via we reach out to our policy makers two or leaders on on those aspects to inform them and and hopefully you know there is a way to get the science to be used. The Florida society would be great. What do you think it's more important than ever now to catalog? All of either vs on the planet considering the impacts upon a change at human wildlife conflict will. I mean. It's a again as I mentioned in in the previously. I mean we won't be able to protect to To understand a if he can't measure something so it's It's really important to To be able to have a good understanding of her by diversity and again with with all these reports that the We see a coming from various organizations. Abouts the declined by diversity in various systems in various ecosystems. I think it's it's a really key to accelerate the rate of discovering and identifying by diversity using new tools and and being able to establish show reference libraries for these I mean one of the aspect of this is the DNA of these organisms. You know that's a are are kept in with the right kind of frameworks in terms of access and benefit sharing and so on within the able and the of work with the various international groups U. N. and various other In organizations in in in the nations that are involved to ensure that the you know like the we We do this work. So that tend to benefit societies in future and and again these days that We are Under a lot You know scenarios of environmental distress from various types of stressors. It's really important to to bring in better tools for environmental. Stewardship and marketing is Is a key tool for for For a by diversity analysis there are other tools as well so we WANNA make sure that the we provide the support is really require. Finish Subsoil Marmots Stewart. So where for our listeners. Go to learn more about the international barcode of life who source him. Well I has websites. I hope that you can provide that in your In Your podcasts web page and that's the best place to go and and from there you can access various aspects of the war story and and start it and various programs and the different countries that don't involve the You will see a big map. And the like highlights the countries and also the impact and the resources and a lot of Other websites a lot of countries. They have their own. Barcode Network and marketing resources. And that's a different languages. So it's It's been it's been a privilege to work with some of the international partners for us In various corners of the world to see bar-coding is making an impact in their scientific inquiries in their Aspects of the societal the sort of applications and the I think it's But the best place for able is a website and within the University of wealth We have a the center for by genomics and its own website so the activities that we have a wealth and orchestration of the work that it's happening deniable in Canada. is also reflected some of the work that We do in building capacity in the in. The general makes buying for mathematics in collecting and sampling organisms. They're all reflected as well in Or Center for genomics and my own. A research is as showcased in my labs websites and And again I'm happy to to answer questions of your audience. If they retired we have we have a or manager of communications. That the is very very Proactive and Mary able in In developing you know Relationships and the answering questions and connecting enthusiasts to the Reich researchers in the countries that the we have in the consortium so So all of these types of approaches. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much and Yeah spirit to talk about the Barclay. Always thanks. That was dad had cheaper by up next. We have defined Retinas Ingham. Welcome back to science for the people. I'm a Nigga with me. Now is Mr Cheapen Ratna Singham associate director of informatics and Adjunct Professor at the Center for Biodiversity Genomics at the University of To welcome to science for the People. Thank Eh pleasure to be here. In addition to being an associate director. Adjunct professor you are also the founder of the life scanner project. He toss a little bit about this project. Sure so life. Scanner is a spin up project from the center by diversity genomics at the University of wealth. And my help with. This project was to take the work that we've done over a decade on. Dna Bar Coding and translated out and make it accessible not just to agencies in companies but most importantly to citizens and this was based on my experience with what. Gps and mobile technology did For for the current generation where it really transformed access to information and life scanner addresses this problem of access to biodiversity information which Through the lack of that information people make bad decisions about About policy for measuring policy around pest control around. import export Of a species at risk so I really wanted to take that technology and it up and make really usable and accessible and that that resulted in life scanner. I would expect that. Dna Bar coding involves technology. That's only available it labs dedicated to genetics research. So how is life scanner meant to make this half technology accessible to people outside of research? Tell you you're right. Genomics capability has been a sort of sort of closeted in the High Profile Large Laboratory facility. But that is starting to change with more margin Tools moving out but life scanner was meant to move it all the way out to the to the end user. So what we what? We did with live scanner was Produce a sampling kit. That essentially would be foolproof would require on no technical expertise to to sample tissue. That was to be identified and provided mobile software to connect that sample to data that was collected where the sample is collected imagery of the environment as well as any descriptive information And then that that sample in a very well designed container which is be thrown in the mail and up at a lab where it would be analyzed by splitting open the cell tax as the DNA copying the DNA bar code Many hundreds of thousands two million times and then reading it through DNA sequencer before searching against a reference library to identify the species now once identified that information along with all the information collected about that species would flow right back in a seamless manner to individuals mobile device. So you get a Ding and you would You'd be able to see what that what that species was. So there is a delay from Collection to identification. But it makes it possible for the average person to walk into their backyard in in in the most common case. Find something that That they are unaware of a past perhaps and be able to identify it in a way that they couldn't possibly do the four even as they were spending hours. Searching on Google to try and get an accurate identification so on it brings together USABILITY And the information management systems to be able to allow that that data to flow from the user back to the user and wraps the lab process in such a way that it's both exposed but Still centralized in done in a very Professional setting even idea of how many people have participated in the lights. Their project at this point have a rough idea Currently I would say about four. Thousand individuals have participated in the scanner project There've been a few interesting cases that have caused that number to be as as high as it is because life scanner does get used quite a bit by NGOs and And on companies to do things like test food on especially when it comes to seafood fraud. But we've had a few interesting partners on the scanner project. One was the city of San Diego which procured a thousand life scanner kits and put them in Thirty of their public libraries and Implored students in kids and parents to check them out as if they were boxed and go out into the field and and collect species within the city of San Diego as part of a smart city project to document the life within Within the city and we actually found a few dozen new species to the database And species that were previously unknown From from the region. So that's you know that's obviously a drive up the The number of users. Because you've got a lot of people going into libraries to to use to like this We've also had partnerships with NGOs like a C. Choice in the to Sukey Foundation. That has used its volunteer network across Canada along with life scanner kits to a sample food At at grocery stores and restaurants across Canada to do a Canada wide study for the incidents of food fraud and and mislabeling sale Those kinds of cases obviously lead to a lot more people using it because it's funneled through a Central Agency distributed to allege number of individuals suits around four thousand people across Canada. Us across Canada and the US but we also have a project in South Africa where life scanner is used to detect invasive species the department of Environmental Affairs. has been using live scanner for the last couple of years to equip their volunteer network and their agents when they do a sting operation or when they when they scan borders for invasive species. They can use life scanner because it's easy to use to collect the samples in and get it identified a central facility. And then distribute that data to where where it's needed itself Really just three countries where it's available right now. What do you think? Individuals in speaking specifically about individuals that are associated with a program or an organization are interested in participating in this project. It's it's really unusual. It's an unusual reason. There's seems to be this pent-up Thirst for knowledge about about life and we see it come out in in young people but often when they're out in the wild and have have questions especially elementary school kids questions about what What this flour is what? That bird is But we tend to as we grow up. We tend to give up on because those those questions are plenty but the answers aren't as easy to get so when we make it easy for people to identify things. It's like introducing a new google. Where you can you can do these searches and have questions answered and usually once you ask an answer one question It opens up the door to a lot more questions that you would then Go out and ask so. It's I think it's tapping into this by affiliate by curiosity that is naturally found in in humans and on the flip side of that question. Why are you interested in involving the public in? Dna Bar coding well. Dinner bar-coding was originally originally created to address. What we call a taxonomic gap which which was a challenge in the scientific community where there was a dwindling pool of experts who could describe new species who could identify species awesome so we wanted to address that gap and on DNA bar. Coding defend tastic job of doing the the first part which was identifying species but in later years it found that he could actually Demark separations between species and thus Identifying new species and this was a a method that I've worked on with Paul Hubert. Who's the creator of DNA Bar? Coding System called bins or Barcode index numbers Essentially assigns new species zero number before it has a name because the DNA sequences will tell you. There's a new species they're on but does not match anything. That's that's on DNA bar. Coding was created to to to fix a knowledge gap and it seemed to me that the knowledge gap spread was Was existing well beyond the scientific community. The knowledge gap existed in industry it existed in society on so where it existed in industry That lead to bad policing of bioproducts like seafood and nutraceutical 's and Where it existed in society it will lead to a lack of or a diminished appreciation for biodiversity and the wealth of biodiversity that existed so in in my backyard visually. I could probably only identified a couple dozen different species but if I went out there and started collecting and especially if I brought in DNA based identification. I could probably collect goods of of species and there's a possibility that there are some new undiscovered species Running around in in my backyard as well and when we did this You know when we went to school kids to go out and collect species They found dozens of new species previously on encountered species because most species are small and have been overlooked by Traditional searches but from the scientific community because they just look like little brown things or there. just Hiding in plain sight because they blend into the background and it's a tremendous effort to document life on the planet It's one that that requires engagement of Not just scientists but Citizens and and an elementary school kids and and corporations because everyone has a stake in maintaining diversity the planet so walk me through the process of using the life scanner species identification kits. So you're to the cat. You get the kit through the mail Halloween. That's not sure. What's inside the kid a couple of different versions of the kit? But what's inside? The kit is a two or four sampling vials and each sampling. Vile has a globally. Qr Code on it and has a DNA preservative a fluid inside it. It's also one. Let's nonflammable and nontoxic and one that safe to ship through the mount so that's a critical aspect of this and along with that are a pair of plastic tweezers Biohazard bag and instruction sheet on how to collect. Then what you would do. Once you received the kit and looked at what was in there you could go onto the itunes store and download the mobile APP or go onto the web on live scanner dot net on an register kit on on the mobile application. So you could go with the mobile phone or the mobile application and then you'd go hunting so if you If you already have the KIP and went out into the wild or went into a backyard and saw that there was a pest eating your tomatoes and you could identify it With Google searches. You could grab it with the pair of tweezers toss it into one of the vials and close it Above does wiggle a little bit. So what we recommend. Is You know. Put it in the in the freezer or the fridge on because that's a much much more Quick death of of the insect. And then you just shake it around a little bit. Turn it upside down. Leave it for five minutes and scan the vial with the mobile APP. It's got a Image based Barcode scanner. And you'd enter information about it so you take a picture of the organism in the vial or if it's still outside you could take it before you put it in the vile and you'd enter what you thought the Species Watson and what you observed about the species as well as the photograph of where you found the species so if that organism was on a tomato plant it's very useful to know that it was found on tomato plant because then we could ensure its ecological role as a passed on on that particular plan. But then once you have that information entered the mobile APP. The web APP would instruct you to submit sample. You throw it in the biohazard bag seal. It put it back in the return envelope throat in the mail and about seven to ten days later. you'd get the identification showing up her new mobile APP and you explore it And you would explore in a couple of different ways one you'd get to see the actual DNA sequence that's there Which is interesting But then you'd also see where else that species was found You see which countries was founded as well as the distribution on and also How much that? That data point contributed to the knowledge about that species itself if it was the one hundred. Data point for that species on is a small contribution. But if it's the fifth contribution of that species or the first occurrence of it in In continental area or in a province or state that's a very important contribution Because it could indicate an invasive or introduced Entry Species we had One such case where an individual had open a box of our baggage stash egos and found A warm inside. One of the statues through in life scanner vol submitted. It was analyzing Kim back with species and they contacted the producer. Say I found a bug in there and they said happens from time to time. It's most likely this this species known pest of a pistachio in California where it was grown but the DNA Barcode said it was a different species. One that was usually found in Costa Rica indicating an import or a migration of that species either to climate change or Human transports out. There are some interesting outcomes of of these once. You get an identification. There are lots of steps that you can do to to better understand. What's going on with with that species in that place? What if you wanted to you sample? Dna from something larger than an insect or worm is that possible with the catch. It is And so some people are have been interested in sampling further that they found on the ground. And you could. You could take the firm put that in or feather for bird. Identification many birds will lead behind feathers. certainly you could get a hold of the burden And pull off a feather but it's so much better to grab feather from an ES- store when that's on the ground and for feather you'd snip off the the the route if you will Of the feather and Tostados you would need the the whole feather. Most of the the cells it we would need are in in the base of the feather With with for You WanNa make sure that the for was clean and separated from any debris and then you could shove the for in that. If I mean if you really wanted to get at a mammal you could swab the inside of its mouth. Certainly I wouldn't recommend this for large mammal like bears or our big gats but Just A Q. Tip astaire q tip could we swabbed and broken off and thrown into the vile and. That's that's quite enough. Certainly. If you're looking at fish you could. You could get a piece of fish. Any bit of tissue would Would suffice but you'd want it to be pure tissue Free of other mixtures because the method that we're using is first generation. Dna sequencing where you want a pure sample Using second or third generation DNA sequencing. You could deal with Mick sample on like for example. Ground Meat or a dredge so you could scoop up a bunch of a bunch of material from soil and throw that in for next generation sequencing. We do have next generation sequencing capabilities in there is a kit. But it's fairly relegated because it's more expensive It's relegated to more Very specific applications. Such as a edna or For or environmental DNA sampling sample day from a plant. So we do have. We do have specific kit for for plants and it's Quite quite heavily Essentially we don't have a liquid in there The device to same vial but it has color a sensitive Silica beads so for plant. You would just do a leaf. Snip and you could You could throw it in the key thing with plans to desiccated as quickly as possible. Thought Water is the enemy of DNA because once you leave DNA in In water you could get bacterial infections. You COULD GET FUNGAL INFECTIONS. Which will consume The the material that you're actually trying to trying to sequence so the moment you desiccated than it's It's quite viable for DNA sequencing. Since there is a limited number of tasks within each kit it gets back to your four free to them. What types of samples you say our priority certainly insect samples are our priority For for for few important reasons one Insects are the largest group of Of Organisms on the planet when it comes to diversity we know the least about them We know a lot about mammals. We know a lot about fish but And and birds are very well studied but insects are are largely under studied even though a lot of investment has gone into studying them. Insects also had a big impact on on our lives. These for example are critical for agriculture. A substantial percentage of of agriculture depends on on these four For Pollination on other insects are are problematic as As past agricultural pests paths For important timber crops and other production An addition in sex are well known as vectors for disease whether it's West Nile or Or Burela With Flying Disease and kicks on insects are really good. Target for both positive and negative cases on understanding the distribution an identity of insects Around us are are really important. Is it possible to a DNA sample insect without killing the entire organism? It is but it's exceedingly challenging so for example Butterflies are a group of insects. That we don't really want to damage and we you know it's it's a shame to to try and get a butterfly into into a vial so usually we can do with just a leg Butterfly should be able to manage without leg or You can you can swab The the wings and getting some of the scales off the The wings if If you can get a hold of a butterfly usually if you just put a butterfly China in a bag for for a few minutes you'll find scales of fall into the bottom so that that should be sufficient but For the purpose of collecting this knowledge. Usually it's better to have the whole organism one of the reasons valuable to have the whole organism especially if it's an unknown organism aesthetic can become a voucher joins a collection as reference organism for that species and considering that we often find new species it's beneficial for for science to have a representative of that species for for additional DNA analysis and for Description of of the physical attributes of the organism. Expect people to use this APP outside of learning the identification of of the samples collected So there are a. There are some practical applications beyond education and curiosity and contribution to science so One one area where we've found a big interest in in life scatters his around food fraud So where we're seeing it. Being used is Some seafood production companies are looking at using this to certify their their food supply chain or their seafood supply chain and basically say that they've tested it you know with live scanner and DNA bar coding And can provide that certification to To their consumers but also consumers could themselves Confirm from particular retailer? If you were to check a retailer for how rigorous their supply chain is now common. Common substitution is to replace to put in to Lappia with a more expensive White Whitefish By potentially solar or something else So it's a good way to to collect that information then also share it so I sort of envision this as a tripadvisor where person collects that information and shares abroad on social media our system it starts create a ranking system where others can go in and verify as well so you. You don't need to test every plate before you eat it. But if a few people were detest restaurants and and retailers than that information would influence other people's purchasing behavior and also influence purchasing behavior of the buyers on at retailers and the restaurant so that they would ensure invest more in ensuring that they have more accurate supply chains so the scanner project actually consists with some programs past current programs unassuming Data's being eased. Foreign what I think you've been out previously you describing a little bit of detail. What these programs are Shor So the the seafood testing program is actually quite active And so there are a few different groups of people involved in that so one is See Choice in the day to keep Dacian Where they employ adult volunteers to go in and collect data from across Canada. And they summarize the data on the labelling information and submitted to Canadian Food Inspection Agency so that they could make this data available to influence policy. The other is coming at it from the other side is. Let's talk signs which is an NGO. That's focused on stem education on. They employ scanner kids with With high schools and And sometimes elementary schools to engage them in this sort of testing. And what that does is gives the students in appreciation and exposure to molecular biology as well as doing things like market analysis and and experimental design for surveys. So that data comes in his wall and feeds into the same pool on. We've also got a partnership with the Captain Planet Foundation in the US that works with schools there to to do a similar sort of project and We've done work with Oceana Canada again using adult volunteers to collect information to to pull that together but all of the state of starts to approach a critical mass. Where we can. We can build out a framework for UM as as guide for For shopping in risk associated with it having reached a critical mass yet but As this data starts accumulate. I I believe that we will be to provide those kinds of recommendations at some point. Are there other types of projects replying to use the state for vom something to do with wildlife crime? I`Ma or something along those lines. Yeah so we do have we do have a wide. Prime project underway It it's not in Canada isn't in South Africa so We've we've partnered with a couple of different agencies there. The South African Police Service's National Prosecutorial Agency and the Department of Environmental Affairs. And we've got our academic hub at the University of joins work with some great great partners there and so essentially what What we're doing there is trying to enable Law enforcement agents to be able to quickly detect cases of wildlife crime because it's quite rampant in in South Africa and on puts not just the The wildlife at risk but also the livelihood of a of the local population. There's a substantial percentage of of the GDP that depends on eco-tourism and as the population of black goes down or Is is poached Then you Ucla proportional reduction in that GDP which affects affects people so There were looking to create a low cost Accessible low training solution where officers can collect samples and Get identification and quickly moved to to prosecution and there's a there's a component of life scanner that's being developed called the life scanner lab in a box where we want to actually take this big genomics framework that exists in in in large laboratories and and and reduce it to be able to be deployed on a small desk and can be packaged into One cubic foot so all the components really need to fit inside roughly at one cubic foot space so And we've deployed the first version of that and then it's meant to be easy to use and does everything that traditional lab would but is focused only on producing the DNA barcode and producing identification. And doing it quick. So that solution essentially goes from sample to answer in six hours. Which is the timeframe needed so that you can detain an individual because you have to When it comes to wildlife crime there's a whole Whole additional set of complexities around the rights of the individual. That you're detaining that you have to deal with speed is is necessary and accuracy is also necessary so that you can Detain the individual and collect the evidence with sufficient vigor that you can ensure prosecution so there are multiple angles to this and so we've we've developed the land box with the same principle of accessibility and ease of use so that with with one week of training a A graduate obviously with the biology background and with a focus on molecular biology from A local program should be able to utilize the in the box to be able to conduct forensic tests either at the airport or At a at a police station or aura border control stations so that they could quickly get. These identification is very exciting so my last question for you is where listeners goes learn more about the life scanner projects while you could go to could go to live scanner dot net which is the website where life scanner kits available but also The results of our programs. So there's a programs page on the scanner website where you could see Data from an access data from all the programs that I've talked about Some programs are still ongoing so the data's only released after that it And an approved with with our partners to be released to the public. But that's that would be the place I recommend you bill. Thank you so much time given alright. Such a pleasure. If you want to learn more about mayor dad had cheaper by or achieve on Ratna system you can check out the links on our website at science for the people dot CA. Thanks for listening. We'll see next week on science for the people. Science for the people is listener supported. You can find us on patron where you can support us with monthly donations in any amount. Your support keeps US afloat and able to keep making great new episodes. And we thank you for it. The show was produced by Rochelle. Saunders and edited by Ryan Bromsgrove. We get help with special projects from Kale Myers. Our theme song was written and recorded by practice pattern and its title is binary consequence the show was hosted by Bethany Brookshire. And he has rea- Marion killed. Gaur and me Michelle Saunders.

Canada. University of wealth DNA Barcode Librarian California Paul Hubert apple Google fraud Costa Rica University of Ottawa Kim International Bar producer Department of Integrity Raddad Science Committee US
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Wow In the World

22:25 min | 1 year ago

Now Watch Me Drip Drip: The Science Of Slower Melting Ice Cream

"Yeah Yeah Brad. Did you give east. Green Track for rock is called a midsummer night's sleep. Stop Served Mindy. When did you get in the business of selling ice cream? I don't know about an hour ago. See Cairo's a wise old. Owl once told me that the secret to live is to find what you love doing the most and to get paid for it so that I had a throat starting podcast out the window and do the thing I love second most ice cream okay first of all that wise old owl was me and second of all. It looks like you've got your prophets fits tripping all over your face as a responsible business boss lady. I had a test out my product before opening it up to the public. Well let me clean that off for you here. I've got a handkerchief in my pocket. No now let me see your face. Almost all cleaned doc counting. That's the problem with ice cream indie. You've found a problem with ice cream. Well as delicious ice cream can be these warm. Temperatures can melt it faster then we can eat it. Yes the old creamy creamy melty melting conundrum to what boy howdy do. I have some good news for you Guy Roz because there's some new science that says that that's all about to change and what are sticky finger Lickin days will be gone for good. What do you mean I'm talking about a newly discovered recipe for melt resistant ice cream ice cream that will melt in your mouth south but not in your hands derise this could be the biggest scientific breakthrough of the twenty first century well that might be a bit overstating things I mean there was the discovery of stem cells to grow human organs begins and the discovery of water on Mars and back to melt resistant ice cream? Oh right so what's the scoop the scoop this scoop is that these Columbian researchers got together with these scientists his from the University of wealth and Canada and found a secret ingredient that would make ice cream nearly on multiple or at least mountain slow motion. What's the secret ingredient mindy if I told you that it wouldn't be a secret? Secret than would it. When are you able to keep a secret? I am not going to tell you what the secret ingredient. I'm GonNa show you what the secret ingredient is well. What's the difference in the Midsummer Zimmer nights cream truck Ghairat Watch out for the sprinkled party down there on the floor? I had a little accident. Are you sure this thing is safe to ride. Of course. I'm not sure it's safe to ride in Cairo's. Go ahead and strap yourself into that VAT of cookies and cream over there. There are no seats in this ice cream truck. I thought this truck was high. Maintenance funds are burning. My Buds are free Bernie <music>. Oh wait. There's a seat of someone left on the curb over there little buddy cop out and grab it for you but many don't go anywhere. I'll be right back this cherry sitting right here. I'm never taste fresher doing business with you. Guys think very much chop. Maybe I'll run into you again sometime. Sorry I had a fight off a pack of wild world for it. What but it still mostly in one piece? Girls got the SIPPY Cup holder mindy. That's a child car seats now. We're just going to squeeze win there now. You're not going anywhere for the rest of your life. We better not be going too far now. Just a quick drive to South America South America Mindy. What does this have to do with melting ice cream? Nothing what what it has everything to do with ice ice cream not melting so they're ready to go find the secret start up the engine Mindy for science anything I son and Skyros now that wire coathanger hangar over there so I can start this Sabia watch that try to skin. Are we there yet. nope still got aways to are we there yet Cairo's. You'll know when we get there because we'll be there okay. Are we there yet. What are we there yet? A little snag in our travel plans snag well. We've made it all the way to Panama so that's the good news. What's the bad news well? We ran out of highway. We ran out of what this Panamerican Highway in Central America. We've reached the end and now we've hit the DARIEN GAP APP that connects us to South America. I've heard of the Darien gap mindy war almost they're almost to Columbia not so fast Cairo's. The DARIEN gap is a major swath of road list jungle and swamp land it sits rape between us here in Panama and our destination in Columbia South America no roads Nope and you said jungle and swamp Land Yup so I guess we only have one choice left and that's to terrorism. Tourism ice cream truck into hyper drive. Put this ice cream bucket on your head Guy Roger Hold on for your life you want me to mindy. What does any of this have to do with the secret ingredient to belt resistant ice cream theirself dire is this is gonna be it? Did you tried like that movie g. I taught me how to drive monster trucks before I could even of course she did guys you ready to to explore the new science of ice cream that will melt in your mouth not in your hand. You know I almost forgot why we were even on this wild adventure okay first things first. Take a look over there where over there all I see are a bunch of people harvesting bananas. Yeah that's it now. We're going to sneak over there in. You're going to distract them while I grab all of their bananas. I'm not sure I follow look at me. Look me in the eye okay. Eh just going to have to trust me when I tell you that this next part is going to be very very important to our mission. Okay you're ready now. Just tiptoe behind me. When we get close you you do something to distract them and I'll sweep in and snatched the goods okay well if it's trash? Couldn't we just walk up and ask for us. We want to do that Guy Roz. Let's go creep free sleep. Quick now distract. They don't notice me okay. I'm a little teapot. Short out by handle and here is by Outta. Here wasn't finished with my song. I pod aww took our garbage so yeah. What are you ready for your practically doing their job for them? Right there on the jets mindy were running off with their garbage. Trust me no one's trying to catch us. Did you just say garbage Arbib H. U.. Haul all viz darby well. You've got bushels of inedible banana stock so yeah pretty sure that's the definition of garbage then one. If I told told you that these bushels of banana stock garbage helped the secret ingredient to melt resistant ice cream go on well as you can see year bananas grow on plants in places like Colombia South America and none in our neighborhood grocery store please tell me that's not the secret and they grow in bunches on these tree like perennial herbs and looking at these banana plants. I can see that they look sort of like trees. Hey look some of them are almost thirty feet tall and they have pretty sturdy stems but they're not woody like an actual tree you so what about their trunks those aren't actually trunks at all what they're pseudo steps which means that they're made up of leaves packed with really really tightly together and because they're packed so tightly together. That's what makes those. Oh stems hard yup and you mentioned that they're perennial herbs. Yeah so Bruyneel is just a fancy pants way of saying a plant that lives for more than two years and an herb is any plant that makes seeds and doesn't have a woody stem Dan and also dies down to the ground after flowering but a perennial herb will come back to life year after year after year like these banana plants yet or lilies orchids their perennial herbs too so what about all of this banana plant waste that you just snatched away from the harvesters. It looks like they were throwing it away. After plucking the banana bunches from it Oh yeah here this dot is called a racket and once harvesters pick hick the banana bunches they just get rid of it but this is a big but mendy the these researchers had a hunch that maybe just maybe there was more to these banana rackets than just garbage. So what did they do. Well they started to extract or suck out of these rackets these teeny tiny micro fibers or threats threads that have no smell or taste haste and are thousands of times smaller than the width of a human hair. Do these tiny fibers or threads have a name yeah but it's a mouthful okay. We'll try me your called cellulose Nanno vibe rails also or C._n._N.. etfs for short cellulose. Nanno fibrous has a nice ring to it so when they got these fibers out of the plant. What did they do with them? Well sprinkle them on the ice cream. Okay so so maybe it was a little more complicated than that because you know scientists what any who the added Teeny Tiny C._a._N._F.. Fibers in different amounts to scoops of ice cream mix and what did they find they found that with just the right right amount of fibers mixed in at the ice cream lasted longer than the ice cream. We're used to eating and by lasting longer you mean you mean that lasted longer in the freezer without going bad longer in the store and longer in these researchers hands because it wasn't melting like crazy the secret to melt resistant ice cream and that's not all there's more they also discovered that these half fibers from the banana plants helped low fat ice cream have a creamier texture meaning that low fat ice cream can now be as delicious as regular ice cream healthier ice cream. Now you're speaking my language mindy so what's next next step is to be the first to get this melt resistant ice cream onto freezer shelves and into grocery stores all over the world. It's wait. Did you say the first yeah the competition competition is starting to heat up and that could melt some scientists dreams. What do you mean well just last year? These Japanese scientists accidentally stumbled upon a discovery that a certain certain chemicals found in strawberries could also help keep ice cream from melting for hours. Kill now that I think about it I faintly remember reading a study out of Scotland last year where scientists. Bound protein that could help keep ice cream from melting on a hot day as well yeah but you know what I always say bonker balls. I always say why wait for science when you can just do it yourself know Oh what could possibly go wrong him those banana stocks and a straw what I'm going to duck the rack is out of the stock and add it to my own recipe and then make us some melt resistant ice cream right now now. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Mindy air goes nothing. Oh boy these look like tiny fibers due bitten into the ice cream that doesn't make gyros waffle cone sugar Cohn or parking Cohn Cohn pinecone keeps on up there okay here you go guy wrong. I call this flavor Banana Kanda now step outside aside the ice cream truck and see if it doesn't melt all over your hands anything for science anything for science anything for science what's happening. Is it appears that your experiment has left me covered in ice cream soup ben wondering I went wrong well. It all started when you rolled up in his falling apart ice cream truck and then drove me through swampy jungles to South America and then speaking of which we should probably had back. I'm losing in Business Down here bananas. We'll get back into the truck before you take off. Oh wait wait wait. The truck won't start. What are we GONNA do frade? There's only one thing we can do. Geyer is loud will be right bat grownups. This message is for you. If your child plays video games for hours on end. Perhaps you consider that antisocial but these days walling yourself off from the real world could be the center of your social life. Today's Today's games offer more avatars and experiences that reflect real life. I'm Joshua Johnson subscribe to one A. on N._p._R.. As we explore the social side of gaming that's to the shell <music> Hi thanks for calling in the world after the beep get ready to record Indian Garros Manager. My Name's Aurora and my name is sage. Were from truckee California. My well on the road is that every average person makes five pounds of trash a day and my why won't the world is that America uses enough straws to wrap around the world twice by my Indian Guy Roz. We love your show. Hi Mindy Guide rise. My name is eleanor and I live in Denver. Colorado Mile in the world is that Cobra snakes have flaps of skin on their next that shootout when they are scared in <hes> they have like a design like a face on them. Does that could scare other animals away but <unk> girls. I love your show so high Reggie for me hi mindy my name is Connor. Iowa was that best analyst Glazer's can run on water without sinking in King does ritchie play video games spa. Hello my name's Max and I'm from Holly They Aitken cut and my wow and that fire salamanders are poisonous by highland yankers. My name is violet and I live in Austria. Marijuana world is ZIP. Strawberries are not really berries but watermelon Pumpkins Bananas Avocados. Are I love your show say hi to Reggie Dennis and Graeme Adieu Force for me. Hi Mundine Garas Minding His grace and hi Jason Nelson British Columbia Canada my around the world is that most. I don't manatees way about one thousand pounds. That's the way to about twenty one second graders I love your show and I got have you Reggie Hi Mindy and Dennis cates she likeness to while not tinge of psychiatry. My name is hunter. I in Brisbane Australia. My wow is that wireless internet or Wifi is an Australian invention by I love new signs tonight. We really really love your show ended messages here. We won. Thank you so much for hanging out with us this week on wow in the world and it keeps the wow allow rolling check out this week scientific conversation starters and our website wow in the world dot com grownups there you can find more info on how your kids can become members of the World Organization of Wilders Shop Our wow shop upload photos and videos to us and check dates for upcoming live events. That's wow in the world dot com our show is produced by Jed Anderson who provides the bells whistles and silly characters say hello our the show is written by me Guy Roz and Thomas Van Calkins who also provides philly characters talk an older. 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Canadas slow drip vaccine rollout

Front Burner

23:57 min | Last week

Canadas slow drip vaccine rollout

"Hi damon fareless host of hunting warhead from. Cbc podcasts in. The norwegian newspaper fiji hunting. Warhead follows a global team of police and journalists says the attempt to dismantle a massive network of predators on the dark web winner of the grand prize for best investigative reporting the new york festivals and recommended by the guardian culture and the globe in mail. You can find hunting warhead on. Cbc listen or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. Hello i'm jamie west. So far. canada has received more than four hundred and thirty thousand doses of the covid nineteen vaccine and as of thursday only about forty five percent of those doses have actually gone into arms. Those numbers are sourced from the covid. Nineteen canada open data. Working group made up of public health. Experts and data scientists from the university of toronto and the university of wealth governments across the country have been roundly criticized for not deploying the vaccines. They started to get in mid-december quickly up. Prime minister justin trudeau. Said this about the slow roll out on tuesday. i think All canadians including me are frustrated to see vaccines in freezers and non arms. That's why we're going to continue working closely with the provinces to deliver vaccines to the provinces and to support them as they need it in terms of getting a more vaccines out to Vulnerable populations and frontline workers as quickly as possible. All of this is happening. As ontario reported a record breaking case count on thursday more than three thousand five hundred cases and quebec prepares to enforce an overnight curfew. Starting saturday to slow the spread of covid nineteen. Today i've got two guests with me who've been watching vaccine closely globe. In mail health calmness andre picard and christina sakhar scientists who works with covid nineteen resources in canada which helps a health professionals access information. This is front burner. Move hello to you both. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today high. Jimmy hi jamie. So before we talk about the vaccine rollout. I just wanna know how it works here. So essentially the federal government is delivering the vaccine to distribution centers across the country and andre. Big picture here against a global backdrop. How would you characterize the job that canada's doing. I think big picture. It's a middling job we've been very slow to vaccinate to use the stock that we have and the other part of the equation is we. Didn't we don't have very much stock now. So it's kind of a double barrel problem but we're doing much worse than many countries in the world unfortunately christiana we hear governments at various levels. Say that the pfizer and moderna vaccine have been hard to transport because they need to be stored at colder temperatures between negative eighty and negative a sixty degrees but other countries other states in the us they made it work right and you think that the logistical challenges around transporting the vaccine. Really explain this flow. Roll out here. One of the major challenges was definitely transport of the vaccine. Considering the temperature especially the the pfizer vaccine needs to Kept at however If we look at even just some of our own provinces one of the strategies that they took was to actually have the vaccine administration sites In long term care facilities and. That's one of the first places that really needed the vaccine right now. I'm during our canadian. Rollout kubeck will receive four thousand vaccine doses in the coming days may monetize geriatric center which has already recorded. Dozens of deaths is at the very top of the list. We did not have that happen here in ontario however did see recently that in ottawa. There's a pilot project where the pfizer vaccine will be rolled out to or transported to long term care facility so we can have some vaccine administration happening in those facilities. Andre it does seem like an and please correct me. If i'm wrong here but it seems like the focus in canada has largely been on hospital sites delivering the vaccine. And does that need to change. Your candidate has really done most of its vaccination in hospitals read than long term care homes. There's been some of that around the country but that's really been the focus. I think that's just largely a refresh reflection of our system. Our system is very hospital. Centric and so. It's not too surprising happened like that. Should it be like probably not public. Health has a history of doing mass vaccination and they should probably be in charge of this rather than hospitals. And the real problem. I think is not the site six center. I think the problem was one of politics as do just seem to be. A lack of of political will a lack of urgency in this and. I just don't understand why that was the case. Andrei talking about public health and their history with mass vaccinations. Yeah i'm thinking about new york. Here is well. I know in new york. County officials are angry. They're saying that. Years of planning for mass vaccinations using local public. Health departments is essentially being pushed aside by the administration of governor andrew. Cuomo whose retain control of the vaccination program and lake. What's happening here is having hospitals administered. And why though is that happening. Why are we not leading on public health on on these institutions that have histories Doing this yes. Our public health does have quite a glorious. History of vaccination goes back to polio these mass campaigns of polio vaccination even when we look at pandemic influenza h one n one in two thousand and nine with more than a million vaccines a week and this was all done by public health. So you have a good question. Why isn't it being done like this. There's no question. Public health is hurting. They've been kept a lot over the years but can they do it. I think they have the ability to do it. Maybe we could have done this differently with the volunteers. Many healthcare workers that when we heard that to the clinics were shut down. Said that's crazy. We'll volunteer volunteer day and night. Just tell us and again. I don't think i don't understand why the coal was Why didn't we tap into the resources we have. And i just wanna be clear heroin. We're talking about public health. What are we talking about. It is this is this. Your family doctor. Is this your pharmacy. Well in this case. I think vaccines down. The road may be able to be done by family docs and pharmacists between can't with these very technical vaccines that need to be kept in ultra freezers. We have to do them at some centralized location but the question is who is to put those shots into your arm so it can be a family doc. It can be a pharmacist. Can be a paramedic a public health nurse. Any number of people were qualified to do this and always have to do is as many countries around the world has done is setup. Clinic set up a structure and then get the people they are and they're more than happy and more than qualified to do it christiana. Who who else could be doing this. I was thinking of Medical students. I know people have been talking about the possibility of training medical students and in california. They seem to be allowing dentist to start administering the vaccine. I think even before we go and reach into students whether there are medical students are nursing students. Doing this even giving the access to the people who are already licensed and qualified to do it and giving them the access To do this within whether it'd be the hospital settings and removing issues around privilege and red tape So some of my Healthcare professional colleagues have mentioned reaching out to hospitals and seeing that they would want to. They would like to volunteer but being given a lot of red tape around whether or not they can actually assist in administering vaccines and i think. That's a huge issue right now especially when there's so many who are willing and ready to do this but when it comes to bureaucracy Having that sort of structure in place that hinders instead of helps with vaccine administration is an issue so beyond that having students being able to teach and train medical students and nursing students to do this as a great option. But i think we already have a vast resource in the current healthcare professionals who are qualified and licensed but are just not being able to help with the administration of these vaccines. I wanna look outside of our borders and talk about what other countries are doing so as of january seventh canada had vaccinated about a half of a percent of our population. And so you know as andrei you were talking about at the beginning of this conversation. Sort of this middling response. We're currently around tenth in the global race. Even though you're one of the first countries to approve the vaccine. But i wanna talk about israel because they have managed to vaccinate seventeen percent of their population about one point five million people and andre. What exactly is israel doing differently here. Well i israel has been held up as an example because they did everything right. So what did they do. They ordered early. Canada ordered quite late. It's vaccines they paid handsomely for their vaccine so they were willing to pay a premium to ensure they get a lot of supply early. It's very organized. health system. Israel has an excellent public a universal healthcare system. It's a four. Hmo's that administered the whole country of super organized. And i think they just made it a political priority. Said we're gonna do this. We're gonna pull out the stops and we're going to do it and israel as we know has a really long reputation for dealing with crises. The when they have to do something to can do really really quickly. They mobilize and they released set the example for the world in this case there are drive. Vaccinations some clinics run. Twenty four seven digitized medical records in israel me notifications of appointments or online or by text. Canada is not ready for that. I do want to note before you move on. Because it's important that palestinians in the occupied west bank and in the gaza strip will not be vaccinated by israel of responsibility that some aid groups believe israel shares with palestinian officials. I i know that the military is also playing a really important role in vaccinating israelis and christina. Do you think that the military should be brought in more here in canada in arizona. For example the national guard is being brought in as well in terms of vaccinations. I think like andre said. I think israel did a phenomenal job in terms of mobilising Mobilizing the pieces that needed to be mobilized in a timely manner and if bringing in the military to do so would be helpful than yes but i am basically i'm at a point where whatever strategy Or whoever is the best strategic lead on this Needs to be the person leading this. I think right now we've had so many delays and missteps in preparing for this rollout that i'm quite onshore of is actually a well qualified to do this andre. Do you have a sense of who you think. The best person for the job would be well. You know we made a big deal of the fact that we appointed these generals in canada. There's a general running the canadian aspect. There's there's a former general in alberta so these are people who are experts in logistics. So this is why we have generals right. So they're the right people to do it now. The question is do they have the power to do it. So i wrote a couple of weeks ago in a column when the Rick hellier was appointed in ontario. I said he's going to be in for a nasty surprise. And that's borne out. Unfortunately because when joe general tell someone to do something given order it gets done. That's how it works in the army in civilian life. When a general gives an order somebody sets up a committee they talk about it and they water down etc and i think he's probably extremely frustrated. He knows what needs to be done. He knows we can do it. And we're just not doing because the politics is getting in the way. So how do how would we fix that. would we bring in. You know the rest of the military edge to report to these generals like what's the answer. I think the simple answer is get out of the way. It's a very common thing that's needed. In our healthcare system our health care system is very micromanaged by politicians and it should be administered by administrators. So they say to recuse earlier. You're in charge. Do what you have to do. And we'll sign the checks. If that was the case. I can assure you that all these vaccines would be in people's arms if you've ever run logistics at all to. It's a nightmare when you have a large operation. You're getting twenty four forty eight hours notice before we get the shipment as a way to vaccinate more people. Several provinces are now distributing the first dose of vaccine without reserving the second dose for people so for example Many who got the first dose of the pfizer biontech vaccine in quebec won't be getting the second dose in the coming weeks as initially planned. And what do you think of this plan. Kershaw to delay the second dose. What are the pros. What are the cons and spend a little bit controversial. So some of the pros. I mean the main pro to giving the vaccines and in delaying the second dose. Is that the sooner that more canadians have. Vaccines in their arms is the better the hopefully the sooner we can reach herd immunity is also the better for the entire country. The conto this is of course depending on the length of the delivery of the second dose. Because we do know that the first dose of each of the vaccines Needs to be boosted by a second dose and there's only a specified length of time for a delay now delaying that Too much longer than that can actually start to make. The first does a little bit irrelevant So we want to make sure that although we are trying to do this in a timely fashion and get everyone vaccinated. We're also not doing it to a point of not being able to get the second booster shot in arms Quick enough as well ray. I know that something. This is something that is happening in the uk but in the united states Dr anthony fauci has said that this is not something that the us is doing even though they could he could see the argument for it. He just doesn't doesn't think it's worth it and thinks that the optimal coverage if you do it the way that you're supposed to twenty eight days for the major no one twenty one days later for the pfizer wine you know. I can't help but feel here that there is this like incredible lack of nation that we're seeing In this rolled out in the response here and and especially when you look outside of canada's borders in italy fifteen hundred temporary circular pavilions will be set up in the country city centers in the uk. They've recruited volunteers. Lifeguards airlines staff to help. And you know christiana. I know that We've been talking about sort of systems here but but y you know. Why is it that we're not seeing this kind of imagination here In this country. Excellent question jamie. And i have no idea why maybe hundred until you. Why but Currently our healthcare professionals are not Who are qualified in license and have the ability to administer. Vaccines are not even given access to do so within. You know certain that they might not currently have privileges at than we are definitely not going to see. The kind of ingenuity that other countries are doing well. I think it goes back to our larger hill system again. This is just a small part of it. This vaccination campaign and the reality is our health system doesn't value in it doesn't reward innovation so it's not surprising all that we're not cnn vacation here like we're seeing elsewhere you know. Why don't we do drive through. Vaccination i think this innate small c. conservatism. We're gonna do the the path of least resistance. Were always going to be cautious. And what is the result. The ultimate result is always the same. It's middling results video response. I hate to hear those answers from you both But is there anything that you like. Is there anything that you're seeing in this country that stands out to you. I'm justin ling host of the village from. cbc podcasts. for years men were vanishing from toronto's gay village the community had always suspected a serial killer. And in the end they were right called a podcast that transcends true crime by the new yorker and recommended by the atlantic and esquire. Find the village on. Cbc listen or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey parents if you're looking for some screen free family fund will. You're saying home. Check out the story store podcasts. From cbc kids and cbc podcast new story store. Shorties are released every week. These short original and hilarious stories fit anywhere near day from breakfast to bedtime story store available on smart speakers. or wherever. you get your favorite podcasts. Well i think the provinces are starting to really pick up their socks. I think they got a lot of criticism and justifiably so For you know. We were one of the countries in the world to approve this vaccine. We did our first. Vaccines december fourteenth really early. But then we just kinda lollygag for a while. So i think now. They've realized the urgency of this on -tario did ten thousand vaccinations in the day. That's a good start. They have to just keep building on that. So i i liked it. There were finally taking this seriously. But i wish it had happened. Two and a half weeks We're we're ramping up and again there's no one in the country that's Vaccinating ten thousand people a day. I went to look ahead now. And talk to you both about supply so andrea you mentioned ontario ramping up to ten thousand. A day and on wednesday on -tario premier doug ford despite being criticized for the slow roll out and still having you know. I should note something like half the vaccines Still sitting in freezers he. He said repeatedly that ontario needs more vaccines and andre. You also mentioned earlier that israel had done an excellent job You know ordering early and and sort of paying these premiums and is there a scenario here in which the next stage of this could be pipeline. Problem could the provinces like essentially catch up. And then we do run outta vaccines and then we would be heading towards a supply problem. I would say it's one hundred percent certain that we're going to have a problem in very short we know that Is that solvable. Probably not at this point it goes back to. We waited late to order. We tried to make up for it by signing a lot of contracts. We've signed contracts with seven different manufacturers. For about four hundred million doses. Now the the question is when will those doses arrive in. It's not going to be quickly. I i wonder if I could ask you both to reflect on what you think. The next six months is actually going to look like considering everything that we've discussed in what andre just mentioned especially around the supply issue I think one of the most important points though that we should make to the public is whether or not you have been vaccinated is for people to continue to follow a public health measures for people to continue their masks. Continue with physical distancing continuing to stay at home if there ever so privileged to do so especially if they're sick and continue to wash hands and not mix within households. I'm definitely sure we're going to continue to see Our situation that we're in right now be extended for Several more months I don't see us being able to be out in about normally within the next six months. So i think we all need to hunker down and realize that very probably gonna continue to be in this current situation. All right andre final word to you. Well i really hate to say this. But i think that all the indications are that the next two three months are actually going to be the worst of the pandemic yet. So i think there's a lot of dark days ahead but the late at the end of the tunnel is back scenes getting vaccines into people that realistically only gonna start on a large scale in the spring and the summer and what we have to recognize about vaccines is that they are not a strategy their long term strategy in the short-term we just have to do the same old boring stuff that we haven't been doing very well that's the real challenge and it's gonna get harder and harder. We're going to have some harsh measures coming down in the country. Lockdowns curfews even more severe than we've seen and it's to be really frustrating for people because it's going to take time for those have an impact so dark days ahead but we hang in there. I think by the spring things are gonna get much much better. All right A sort of hopeful note to end on Thank you very much t. Both we're very appreciative. Thank you the duke before we go today. Some news on the aftermath of the capitol hill riot democratic house speaker. Nancy pelosi has called for us. President donald trump to be removed from office for what she called inciting sedition the gleeful desecration of the us capital. Which is the temple of of our american democracy and the violence targeting congress are harz that will forever stain our nation's history instigated by the president of the united states. That's why it's such a stain in calling for this seditious act. President has committed an unspeakable assault on our nation and our people pelosi along with senate democratic leader. Chuck schumer are calling on vice president. Mike pence to use the twenty fifth amendment to remove trump. They also said that democrats in congress are prepared to act if pence does and mentioned the possibility of impeachment. All right that is all for this week. Front burner is brought to you by. Cbc news and cbc podcast. The show is produced this week by image. Burchard elaine. Chao shannon higgins and allie chains are sound design was by derek bandai and matt cameron. Our music is by joseph shabbat in a bloomberg sound the executive producer of front burner. Is nick mccabe locos. And i'm jamie thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next week for more. Cbc podcasts go to cbc dot ca slash podcasts.

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The Quirks & Quarks Listener Question show - where we answer your questions. Why dinosaurs are so big, why winter skies are so clear and much more.

Quirks and Quarks

54:11 min | 1 year ago

The Quirks & Quarks Listener Question show - where we answer your questions. Why dinosaurs are so big, why winter skies are so clear and much more.

"This is a CBC podcast. You don't do Aw Why can't I get an answer. Hi I'm Bob MacDonald. Welcome to twenty twenty. We're kicking off the new year with our ever popular listener question show and and we don't have any easy questions today on the show you'll hear answers to your questions about things like why dinosaurs got so much. Bigger than modern animals why why winter skies are so crystal clear how viruses find us to make us sick. Climate would be like without climate change and much more. That's all today on the courts question. Show where you always get an answer to your questions answered uh-huh into why at high get you Do Kick Opera Question Show. We have a big question from a small person. Hi I'm Deborah Karen. I live in Vancouver. My three and a half year old recently stumped me with a question and here is why are dinosaurs bic and where small. Well we should point. Join out that not all dinosaurs. Were big some were on the small side small enough to start flying and become birds but of course there were dinosaurs that were much bigger and here to tell us all about them. Doctor Victoria Arbor the curator of Paleontology at the Royal BBC Museum in Victoria Dr Arbor Welcome back to quirks and quirks works. Thanks so much for having me. So why were the dinosaurs so big compared to us. There's a couple of things going on with this question that I think are really interesting. So there's a lot of advantages to being really big if you're a plant eater and you don't WanNa get eaten by predators. A really good strategy is is to be just way too big to attack. So that's One particular reason that some dinosaurs might have evolved these very large body sizes. It's just a lot harder to be attacked if if you're just really huge you're very strong and powerful that way but then likewise if you are a Predator and you have very large prey in your environment it's also helpful to evolve. Large bodies is so you can attack those prey so you get into this kind of arms race in terms of body size evolution. How dinosaurs actually got really huge has to do with how fast they grew who And so a lot of dinosaurs actually grew incredibly quickly. A lot of them had two growth. SPURTS IT looks like once when they were really small and then a a sort of teenage growth spurt just just like we tend to have. How do we know that they grew that fast? One of the things that peeling told you can do is cut up the limb bones actually of dinosaurs. So the fossilized limb them bones In dinosaurs like some other living animals today actually get growth lines in their bones as they grow from year to year. So it's kind of like tree rings if you've ever seen sort of like the stump of a tree and there's all these like rings inside it Dinosaurs actually had something very similar and so using that you can see how many years they were alive before they died. You can see how much they grew each year and you can sort of look at the rate of growth by measuring that information in those bones. Okay okay so there's an advantage to being big. They grew faster than us. But it also takes a lot of food to grow big was what was the environment like. There was a different than it is today. Yes of course dinosaurs lived in so many different environments all around the world and for such a huge period of time But it does kind of defy the imagination in some ways trying to understand. Understand how you can go from say a tiny sore pod. Those long neck dinosaurs that would have hatched something like the size of a soccer ball in terms of their eggs Up to something something. That's bigger than a school bus. In maybe as little as twenty or thirty years depending on how you measure how fast they grew so that obviously required a lot of foods so they lived in these very productive forests with lots of vegetation around for them to eat but it does kind of like stump the imagination understand just like how fast some of these dinosaurs were actually growing. So who were the biggest. The very biggest dinosaurs were these long necked dinosaurs. The sore pods And some of them just reach these absolutely colossal sizes. Some of the biggest things like Argentina source or dreadnought is a lot of species that lived in South America in terms of the meat eaters. Taranath sores I like tyrannosaurus. Rex were really huge. There were a couple of other big meat. Eaters like Carcharodontosaurus but Yeah Classic T. Rex definitely one of the biggest meat eating dinosaurs of all all time. What determines when something is growing that fast when it stops growing how and when an animal stops growing is regulated by its genes? It's basically some sort of gene inside. Their body tells their cells to stop dividing and to stop creating more mass so to speak. Unfortunately that's a question that's really hard for Paeleontology to answer but is the sort of thing that like modern day so biologists can look at in terms of living animals that are around us today while speaking living animals today. We don't have any land animals as big as the dinosaurs but we do have elephants giraffes rhinos that kind of thing to the same rules supplied to them. Yeah so dinosaurs. Head very similar growth patterns to a lot of mammals and so a lot of mammals tend to grow very quickly mammals and birds grow quickly and end reptiles crocodiles or lizards or snakes. They tend to grow relatively slowly. And there's some ideas that they actually kind of just keep growing for most most of their lifestyle and especially things like crocodiles so they're kind of slows down but they do tend to keep growing very very slowly even when they're very old so dinosaurs seem to have a more Mammal Amel or bird like growth strategy where they grow really fast. When they're young they might have this other growth spurt when they're a teenager and they hit a maximum size and that's as big as they get probably okay so today we have crocodiles which go back to the time of the dinosaurs? But they're not as big as dinosaurs and we have elephants John Giraffes and Rhinos Rhinos which are big. But they're still not as big as done. Sorry so why. Don't we have animals that big around today. So this is another really interesting aspect of dinosaur. Your biology in that many of those really huge dinosaurs actually mostly full of air so hot of dinosaurs like their descendants. The birds words have these really extensive air SAC systems inside their bodies so they have their lungs but then they also have all these little branches off of their lungs that go into their vertebrae and all into sort of their or like their body cavity And we can see this because we see the little pockets for those air sacs in the bones themselves So if you have say modern day elephant and then a dinosaur. That's about the same size as an elephant that dinosaurs actually going away quite a bit less and this might be one reason that dinosaurs could get to be these bigger body sizes houses because they actually just had a lot less mass than than they were less dense than an equivalent sized mammal. Wow doctor thank you very much for your time. Thanks so much for having me. Doctor Dr Victoria Harbor is the curator of Paleontology at the Royal BC. Museum in Victoria and and Our next question came out of the balloon. My name is dead Nielsen. And I live in Calgary my question. Today is some northern Europeans as well as dog like huskies. How blue light it? There's some benefit to having blue eyes living north for the answer. We go to Dr Brian Gregory Professor and Chair of the Department of Integrative Biology at the University of wealth so Dr Gregory is having Blue Eyes of beneficial traits in colder parts of the world. It's a very interesting question. I'm afraid it's a bit more complex than yes or no th th I I guess the question is will what causes blue is in the first place and It's it's not actually anything blue in the is it's not a blue pigment or other molecule that makes it blue it's actually absence of pigment specifically Melanin which which is the dark pigment. We normally think of in dark skin and dark hair so when you don't have Melanin in the of the I what you see is different wavelengths of light being scattered and reflected in different ways and that's basically the same reason that a clear sky appears blue so you take that Melanin out if you have a mutation that prevents the production of that pigment. Don't you have Basically Blue Eyes as a result. Okay well how did blue is a rise in human populations in the first place so in humans the mutation tation is actually in a gene on chromosome. Fifteen it's been identified and the result is you don't get production of that pigment in the eye so you end up with the blue. I affect. That probably arose within the last ten thousand years. Maybe less it seems to have occurred somewhere around the Black Sea in relatively small population of humans and then became more common within that population. Over the last few thousand years there is good genetic evidence comparing genomes across different humans that Jean's involved in pigmentation including in the I have been under natural selection pretty intensively over the last several thousand years so it's probably not just chance it probably did spread within those populations for some reason and then there's a bunch of the seas about why so one of them is is that reduced pigmentation allows more sunlight to get in. That's necessary for making vitamin D. And if you're living in low light conditions than letting winging more sunlight is probably a good thing for that purpose other possibilities are that it actually allows better vision under low light so there's not great evidence for that but speaking of somebody with Blue Eyes I can say that they're quite sensitive to highlight so it may translate to sensitivity in low light. It is well. There's some evidence that blue is lighter. Colored Eyes are associated with better capacity to deal with seasonal affective disorder so Kinds of emotional states that are affected by long periods of dark. That might be a possibility. But there's not really strong evidence for any any of those particular hypotheses one other possibility is simply that it was considered attractive So instead of evolving by sexual a selection related to survival it was sexual selection so in other words individuals found attractive intended to meet with individuals having blue eyes within that population and it became common for that reason. So it's just a preference okay. So those are the ideas of why it might have arisen in humans now. Dogs like huskies so in dogs It's a different story different. Genetic mutation in that case it's actually on their chromosome eighteen and it involves a small piece as of DNA that's been doubled in their genome. If you have that duplication a you have a blue eyes and one of the interesting differences because of the way that works in huskies. Huskies Blue Eyes is a dominant trait whereas in humans. It's a recessive trait. So you have to have two copies of the blue I version of the gene in humans. But if you have any one one copy of this mutation in Huskies than you will get blue eyes so it's important to bear in mind. That blue is is not ubiquitous in huskies. It's actually actually not one of the requirements for breeding standards. They are there. Huskies like humans have a variety of different colors. Blue is more common in huskies than in most other. Our dog breeds so the question is why in huskies again. There can be ideas about vision in low light or other her impacts however with dogs a really important thing to remember is that they've been under really intense artificial selection by humans mints. And if you look at most dog breeds yes. There are traits that we've favored because they're functional so they're good at running faster the good at hunting certain kinds of prey Others are just Lindsey Human Sia trait. They prefer it. They breed those individuals that have it becomes common for that reason and I suspect. That's probably what happened. HUSKIES it's a very striking trait and people selected for it. It's important to note that other northern dwelling mammals including other canines signs like wolves and foxes. Don't have blue eyes so it doesn't seem like it's a really calm and trade among mammals living in the north. It's really just didn't huskies. And not even all huskies. Dr Gregory. Thank you very much for your time. You're very welcome. Dr Ryan Gregory is a professor and chair of the Department of Integrative Biology at the University of Guelleh. How do they remain in me now? Of course in January and so you may have noticed the clear cool skies a winter our next listener certainly did. Hi My name's Randy Mafa. I'm lucky he'd have a view of Toronto from six kilometers away in the winter the lights and the skyline appear more clear and Chris. Am I imagining this or as cold air visually sharper for the answer. We go to someone who spends a lot of time. Contemplating Clear Skies Dr Allowed MacDonald from the department of Astronomy and astrophysics music at the University of Toronto. Dr McDonnell welcomed the courts and quirks. Thank you very much. So is winter air actually clear summer here in fact it is in in the summer We have a lot of warm air and warm air tends to hold a lot more moisture than cold air does so when you're looking at the skyline In the summertime martime. You're actually looking through a lot of water molecules in our atmosphere and in the wintertime Colder air tends not to hold as much moisture. And so you aren't looking through all those water molecules in the same way so you actually can see a clear sky line when you're looking at it in the winter then you you're looking at it. In the summer I can understand how L. having a lot of dust in the air would get in your ways and astronomer but what is it about water vapor. 'cause you think of that is kind of transparent right well. They're actually a couple of things that that water vapor for dozen the atmosphere One of those things. It absorbs infrared light. So if you're trying to look in those wavelengths of light It's a lot more difficult. If there's a lot of water vapor in the the air the other thing is that it simply scatters the light. So when you're looking through a lot of water vapor the light tends to scattered around and it makes it difficult to see a nice clear crisp image because that image is sort of getting spread out over a lot of space. So is the summer view that that sort of blue haze longer this does because of Water Molecules are water vapor for the most part. Yeah now our listeners says that he's looking from six kilometers away. How much does distance matter? I it actually actually matters a lot because when you're looking through our atmosphere at an angle so towards the horizon you're actually looking through a lot more air and so you're looking through a lot more of with these water molecules that are suspended in the air and so the farther you look the Hazier thin colgate and I'm sure you've seen this just on a warm day when you look at the horizon. The things that are closer. Look less hazy. In the things that are farther away more hazy. Are there other ingredients in summer air. That would make the air more difficulty skylight for sure. So in summer we have a lot more plantlife that releases pollen into the air There's also a lot more dust that gets kicked up because you know you don't have that Snow Get dad and Yeah just this. Generally more sort of particles in the air that can block our view of the sky. You mentioned there's less water vapor in the air in the wintertime What about clouds? Well there's usually about the same amount of clouds in winter and summer They're different types of clouds because warm air does different things and cold cold Air But on the very very cold stays in the sky you'll notice that you know you have those very very clear crisp nights and Colder air there is less conducive to like creating those those big billowy clouds that we see in in warmer weather so when the air is Sort of warmer Moore with all that stuff in it. How much distortion does that? Cause a hint 'cause a lot of distortion Which is why we don't really like operated telescopes for example? Fool in places where. There's a lot of You know warm. Air and a lot of particles in the air and a lot of moisture in the air so astronomers tend to build telescopes where the effects of the atmosphere will be at the least amount possible so we'll build telescopes on very very high mountains. So there's not as much atmosphere between us and space will also build telescopes in places where it tends to be drier so for example in the desert of Chile. There's some really really good telescopes there and sometimes we just try to avoid the atmosphere completely By building telescopes and space for example. There's also a really cool venture specifically at the University of Toronto where astronomers are building ending telescopes that are suspended from giant balloons that go up into the upper atmosphere. A couple dozen kilometers up and They float around and they're missing most of the atmosphere and then they eventually fall back to the ground and you get the data from them and that's a sort of cheaper way than To get rid of most of the atmosphere than having to go into space. Yeah Yeah we tend to forget that We're looking through a dirty windshield out into space. Which is our atmosphere essentially at Donald? Thank you very much. My Pleasure Dr. L. Adam McDonald for the department of Astronomy and astrophysics at the University of Toronto And do you feel well. Some things are getting better. One of the fascinating technology stories of the past decade has been the commercial development of practical electric. Cars are next questioners wondering about their batteries. Hi there my name. Is Marsha Porter and I live in Saint. John's Newfoundland and Labrador and my question is where are the minerals mined. There used used electric vehicle car batteries and are the newer batteries. More efficient compared to those of us in the earlier days of electric vehicle here with the answer is Dr Elena Baranova a professor in the Department of Chemical and biological engineering at the University of Ottawa. I welcome to the show. It's it's my pleasure to be here so first of all. What are the minerals that are used in the batteries of electric cars? Currently the batteries that they used in electric vehicles. Electric cars are lithium. Ion Batteries main mineral. There is lithium we have craft fight. Cobalt Oxide sometimes manganese sometimes in some batteries week have nickel manganese and cobalt those mixtures but main component is lithium. So where are those minerals mined. So Lithium on over seventy percent of the world's lithium resources are found in so-called clip theam young which is situated and Argentina Chile Sheila and believe him also. A lot of lithium is mined in Australia in particular in Western Australia. Also China Zimbabwe calf those resources now what about the other elements yes okra. Fight a graphite this Mind everywhere we can candidates. Well Nicholas Mind and Canada John. Adam we have Kabul's called mostly in the Democratic Republic of Congo Manganese in other countries like South Africa for instance astray. La China Brazil. When you look at these minerals that are needed for electric batteries? How rare are they are? They abundant around the world so letham Dan was quiet It's quite abundant. There are several publications in several work. That were dedicated to study. How much of lithium we will need to? We will move completely completely to electric vehicles who to a hybrid electric vehicles. And it looks like we have good to fragments for that. Also lithium can be the Recycled from the petrous. Currently the we are not recycling enough by two can recycle lithium. But you're mentioning Cobol comments from the Republic of Congo. How much of a problem is that? Oh yes of course. Apparently children they work in mind. So it's not yes. It's not the Best S. place to my in Kabul or get cobbled from and It's also not environmentally friendly material and also if we're using he's in Kabul dioxide materials. There are some safety concerns because there was some explosions batteries in portable devices in the fast. How long can the lithium ion batteries hold a charge? What what causes them to degrade so What causes them to create this composition of material so materials decree eight not materials that the inside the battery so we have cathode are not electrolytes? You correlation of those materials time leads to decrease in charge so so. What kind of lifetime do we current if we're talking about electric vehicles so currently electric vehicle so if you look at It's a producer's like Tesla. Aw Nissan they offer up to eight years of life expectancy so a warranty for eight years and up to five hundred thousand miles so yeah expectance yes. How much better our electric vehicle batteries today than previous versions? Oh Oh yes. Stay improving every year we see increase and performance and the life Life Spun and your ability mostly because of newer material Israel formulations in the electric vehicles currently for the safety concerns so we moved away from Letham Kabul dockside and we have more letham nickel manganese cobalt excite or we have also lithium iron phosphate materials else. Well are we gonNA see batteries made of different materials. Besides Lithium Ions there are some adult turning deadly theam. Im materials trails. And maybe in ten years we can talk about Sodium Sulfate Osea era over Nadya flow battery so they're all currently under the research stage so we are in research and development but yes the rest alternates inventors batteries that can be charged. It really quickly Sort of the equivalent of a tank of gas where you can come up station and fill it in a few minutes rather than hours. So that's that's the goal and I know that mania laps and also industries around the world work on this problem because currently it's quite slow to charge the battery completely up two hundred percent. You need our sometimes even more so Yes we We hope that we can do it. And with the internal fights or even even two minutes Baranova thank you very much. Thank you Dr Elena. Baranova is a professor in the Department of Chemical and biological engineering at university versus Ottawa. Uh well the next question is about the invisible world under our feet which often blows my remind. Hi My name's John Brennan and I'm calling from Maple Ridge. BC ON A walk recently in my neighborhood. I counted fourteen at nist about both three meters apart on one side of the road. Are they all distinct individual nests or could they all be individual entries to the same nest and here with the answer is Erin fairweather a PhD candidate in environmental sciences at the University of wealth. So Mr Fairweather. Tell me about these fourteen ness. John saw his walk in Maple Ridge. BBC Are they all individual ness or one giant nest. So that kind of depends on the species. There's actually ninety two species known from British Columbia so it could be a species that is quite large that it could be multiple holes. There are a lot of species that are common bursch Columbia laziest near Niger that it actually could be independent says likely in that case especially in an urban lawn lawn setting that there are independent nests associated with each of those holes even if they're in close proximity now is that typical for urban areas in Canada. Yeah that's quite typical within urban areas. Most of the communist species that we'll see we'll be very limited very small and this is often due to the level of disturbance that they experience these species are adapted to the fact that in larger landscape they'll be disturbed quite regularly so they keep themselves contained chained to a very small area so that means that each nest has its own queen. Yes that's correct. And in this case we call these colonies Monaco Monaco they have one queen colony. Okay so that's what he saw on his walk. Now what other kind of ant colonies either so. There are quite a few different nest establishment French strategies. We have the monness say one queen but then we have some cases where they are pollyannas. This means that they have multiple queens per colony. The most is common way that this establishes itself is multiple Queens from a single nuptial flight and the flight is when ants fly and mate and establish a colony in a given year where these colonies can be quite large but they are pretty still limited in the range. They could say the size of an entire lawn but not over multiple kilometers. Well are there super super colonies elsewhere in the world that's correct. There are super super colonies elsewhere in the world so there are some ants that will form these paulie guide Sinus collies from multiple generations. So as there are more nuptial flights these queens will start to cooperate with one another over a long period of time and then they start to accumulate in their their numbers and their abundance and their distribution and one of the most common of these species is the Argentine ant. We know that they're calling as of this super colony species that span hundreds of kilometers and across continents go on hundreds of kilometers. There's one end colony. Yeah that's correct okay. But as far as walking down the streets and be seeing you see these multiple ones here. How large is each one of those? The small minor colonies which is likely what this gentleman has found. They're pretty small. They're going to be about that. A size is of a like a clump of soil in the hand. They're not very big at all. Maybe a couple centimeters cubed in volume now if you have different species event a similar area how do they interact with one another. So they're constantly in competition with one another and especially in the case of Montana's queen colonies are even even in competition with each other within the same species so on a single lawn you might have multiple species events and multiple colonies of the same species. And they're all at war with with one another constantly they're fighting food and they're fighting for territory despair weather. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me Erin. Fairweather is a PhD candidate in environmental sciences at the University of wealth. Why do we have now? I am I bob McDonald. And you're listening to our annual corks in Cork's questions show and now on to our next question. Hi this is Kelly still alcon from. Where's your on -Tario? It's my understanding that because the universe is expanding. The galaxies in our universe are moving away. Because that's the case. Why Young Doc? Young Team Grumbling Galaxy on a collision course with each other fascinating question for the answer. We go to doctor will percival professor and distinguished. I Research Chair in the Department of Physics Astronomy at the University of Waterloo. So Dr Personal on the one hand. The Universe is expanding and the other we have the android but a galaxy heading towards us. What's going on so in fact and dromedaries not that unusual there are about one hundred galaxies that we can observe that are moving towards us? This isn't actually a contradiction with the expanding universe. Because we we look out. We see billions of other galaxies and they are moving away from us and in fact the galaxies that a further away from us a moving away more quickly in line with what we expect from an expanding universe rufus so it's really just locally that galaxies are moving towards us and that's a consequence not of the expansion of the universe but actually off the formation of structure with an. Oh I see so. It's a matter of scale here and the reason. The galaxies locally are coming together is simply through gravity not so then what distance do galaxies need to be away from us to be expanding part of the expanding universe compared to being drawn closer together together with a local effect well as soon as we get beyond the Andromeda galaxy that is two point five four million light years away then. We add John a few more Zeros to that. Then we find that all of those galaxies are moving away from us. I'm really the expansion of the universe is a property off. Love the whole Cosmos has a whole in fact we think thanks I signed Shannon relative. Not that it's actually space time that is expanding and we should think of it that way rather author galaxies moving apart. If you think about it this this force that's pulling everything together. Gravity should be making this expansion of the universe decelerate eight so objects that are moving away from each other should be moving away from each other less and less quickly as time progresses but actually what we see is that the objects objects are accelerating away from each other and this is contrary to everything we know about gravity and we have to in this something else causing this accelerated did expansion and we call that dark energy and do we have any idea what that dark energy is. No dark energy is really just a name for the phenomena and you should never of a mistake having a name for something for actually understanding what it is so when scientists says dark. That means I don't know pretty much. Yeah I mean I. I don't don't get me wrong with theories. There are simple mathematical theories that are more complicated physical theories but the honest answer is we don't so when our galaxy and in drama do collide. What's going to happen? Galaxy the Milky Way Galaxy Andromeda both examples of spiral galaxies. He's that disk galaxies with spiral arms and a central core. And what happens. When two spiral galaxies collide is that you lose a lot at that beautiful spiral structure they tend to form basically more of a massive stars quite often? You can lose all of the spiral structure and it Foams uh-huh what we called an elliptical galaxy. So are there any collisions happening at that time. What happens to our sun in our solar system during all that So the chances this is odd that asked are will just carry on As a star within this elliptical galaxy gradually. Getting old as it will do. There is a very very small chance that if another star from the drama to galaxy comes close enough to ask Dr it might give it a kick and that kick might actually take it out of the galaxy. But we're we're talking about this happening. Full five billion years. So there's no reason to panic. Oh we have a wild way yet. Yeah Dr Percival. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you Dr Will. Percival is a professor and distinguished research chair in the Department of physics and astronomy at the University of Waterloo. asu The in one of the issues. You've heard about a lot recently on the program. Is Plastic pollution one possible route to solving our plastics. Problem is biodegradable plastics wchs but this listener is wondering how much of a solution they are really high. I'm Michelle Roger and I'm from Terrace. British Columbia and I'm wondering if the the plastics made from corn or hemp for example are any better for the environment here with the answer is Dr Love Chile bioplastics mystics researcher and consultant with grey to green sustainable solutions in Vancouver Dr Chile. Welcome back to quirks and quarks. Thanks so much for having me are bioplastics like those made from corn and hemp actually better for the environment. That's a great question and the answer really is it depends so bioplastics era plastics on the silver bullet to solve the plastics problem. But they could work in some cases. They're more biodegradable in some respects as long as they end up in the conditions conditions that they need to actually buy degrade okay so we take the the biodegradable plastics. How do they actually degrade and what are they turned into? Everything breaks down the same way. It's big it becomes smaller and smaller pieces. which eventually dissolve through some biological mechanism? They're big plastic bottle for example will get smaller and smaller and micro-plastics and then they get smaller and smaller which get taken up into biological systems the difference between impossible plastics and conventional plastics is. Is that when it gets down to the micro plastic size conventional plastics persist for a very long time in the environment and so they can take any of the toxic additives and things. Things that bind those micro-plastics. They can transfer them throughout different ecosystems for a long time whereas compostable plastics when they get down to that micro-plastics stage they've only in that stage for a very short time frame so ideally between a few months to maximum a few years and so those materials will only persist in the environment for a relatively tiffany short time before they get taken up by micro organisms and consumed in some way but that's only if those plastics end up in industrial compost facilities if they ended up in the soils or in our oceans. Then they won't break down very quickly and so we could end up having those plastics persisting for a long amount of time are bioplastics six made exclusively of these organic materials or are there other ingredients mixed in with them. Yes so what. The material is made from doesn't determine where it goes so so you can have a biodegradable plastic made from Oil Petroleum feedstocks. Or you can have a non degradable plastic made from plant sources and so It's kind of two shoot different systems that we're thinking about but there is a lot of overlap where you have a buyer based or bio derived plastic which is then also by degradable which is kind of the ideal situation soon for certain single use applications and so what we're really trying to do women making biomaterials is we're trying to figure out. How can we take the byproducts of agriculture forestry the end marine fisheries and things like that? How can we take those byproducts to make these different materials as well so we're just trying to create entirely new industry but focused on biomass askin version rather than oil and gas conversion? We hear so much about the effect of plastics especially in the oceans on on life and being picked up like the micro-plastics being picked up whatnot and the toxic effects that they're having if bioplastics get into the environment like that. Do they break down fast enough. That we don't have to worry about those those issues. It depends on the bioplastic. I'm so some bioplastics being made to replace long-lasting plastics more durable plastic like the things that we use Alex Tonics and other types of technological devices and so those materials because they're made to be durable and lost a longtime they potentially if they get leaked out into the environment and not ending up in their appropriate waste management waste stream. They will could take very long time to degrade similar to conventional plastics six whereas on the other hand People are designing more list Gerbil plastics for single use and shorter term applications and so those plastics which may to degrade in some respects. They would break down foster than the more durable plastic so it really does depend Dr generally thank you very much for your time. No worries hope. I answered your Christians. Thank you doctor love. Easy Chile is a bioplastics researcher and consultant with grey to green sustainable solutions. Lucians in Vancouver. You know what's Nice visit to the most powerful powerful waterfall in North America. Our next question here must have been thinking about a recent visit to Niagara Falls when he came up with this question. I'm Wendell award from Leonard. -Tario my question is water. At the top of Niagara Falls has potential energy as water drops from the falls. The potential energy becomes Connecticut Connecticut Energy when the water lands in the pool below the falls the Connecticut energy dissipates presumably being converted into heat. If this is correct is the temperature in the pool. At the foot of the falls measurably warmer than the water at the top of the falls. And it's the water coming out of the hydroelectric generating station cooler than in order to put of the pulse for the answer. We go to Dr Brian Carney. A professor in the Department of Civil Engineering at the University of Toronto. I Dr Carney welcome to the show. Thank you registered pleasure to be here. So is water at the bottom of Niagara Falls warmer than the water at the top. It is indeed when the water does fall fall over the falls that does exactly as the questioner is said. It picks up kinetic energy initially and that is largely dissipated at the base of falls most of that it ends up in thermal energy. Is that just because the water. The bottoms getting getting squeezed. Press late like if you take a rubber ball and you squeeze it a lot of worms up in your hands at the idea. What you've got there is another form Armavir reversibility when you've got the the mechanical energy that you add in squeezing the ball that turns into heat through really viscous action in the solid what happens? The liquid is very similar. You end up with initially with turbulence which is just the whole variety of Eddie's and waves and irregular motion and that gradually gently decays through this process of his custody into random motion of molecules which is essentially temperature. That's the bulk of what happens. So that's a really a good approximation. What is interesting though? Is that the specific heat of the thing in water that stores thermal energy is so high compared to mechanical Sergio that over Niagara Falls the increase in temperatures around a tenth of a degree Celsius. It's very measurable but degree one tenth of a degree. Okay but if the falls were higher could could we get it up to a degree You could get up to a degree in basically need Waterfall that's five. Hundred hundred meters to all which is pretty hard thing to find in many contexts of our leaders massive waterfall? I guess it's a good thing that water it doesn't change his temperature too easily our oceans. It'd be getting hot or cold hot and cold every season. Exactly that moderates great many things including putting your body's including the the flow of water in our pipes and turbines. Okay so what about the second part of the question is the water coming out of the Niagara hydroelectric generating being stations colour. I guess the cooler than what is the key question. It is actually warmed a little bit. Because of the inefficiencies of the turbine relative relative to the water that entered the turbines and so there is a slight warming but the warming that takes place after passes through the turbines is much less than takes place through the falls because we extract much of that energy that went through the turbine in the form of electrical energy. So is the water warmer cooler coming out of the end The water is slightly warmer as a result of going through the turbines warm than it is than the one that fell over. The false now. Does any of this added the heat to the bottom of the falls either from the water. That's falling over the precipice or the south is going through the generators have any impact on the life on the lower part of the river essentially none The reason for that is that there's all sorts of other processes that are influencing the thermal regime of the river as well so the water that is exposed to the sunlight is receiving that and it's being warmed we get that effect quite dramatically through the seasons and the as much as it's a good approximation nation to say that the water that goes over the false largely warms up. There's a whole bunch of other things that happen as well so as you can imagine. If you're near the falls you will hear the a whole. There's a coup stick energy that goes into sound there's also a coup stick energy that goes into the water there's also cousteau energy that goes into the rock so if you ever take one of those was tunnel trips under the falls you'll feel the vibration the false which is -nother outlet for the energy that went over the falls. There's also evaporation in atomization -sation and surface tension effects in the actual process of the energy. Transformation is as usual pretty complex but The the change happens Vince. As a result of the false is is probably relatively inconsequential from a ecological perspective. Okay so the water going over the falls does get a little bit warmer but not enough to worry about exactly. Well thanks a lot for your time. My pleasure Dr Brian. Carney is a professor in the environmental section of the Department of Civil Engineering Airing. At the University of Toronto and gene question mandated wounded. You listen to a thirteen question method in the one you'd food saying at the thirteen West do you won't have some fun. Goes with the wound. You You well. We don't have thirteen questions left. Just a couple of good ones. Hello Quirks and quarks. My name is Albert Forni and I live in Holland Landing Ontario. How would the earth's atmosphere be different than comey centuries if there'd be no climate change or perhaps Hap- snow? Industrial Revolution was the earth's climate heading in a particular direction before we intervened. Then go here with the answer. Is Dr Sasha. Asha Wilson and associate professor in the Department of Earth and atmosphere sciences at the University of Alberta. So Dr Wilson. How did the industrial revolution changed the? There's climate well. The short answer is did make a big change. The longer answer is one that we have to go back into Earth's climate records to unravel title. Okay so what was before the industrial revolution. Well we know from looking at ice core records. These are long cylinders vice that have been pulled from the Greenland ICESHEET and from Antarctica. That for the past eight hundred thousand years or so. We had fairly constant levels of C O two in the atmosphere between about two hundred and three hundred parts per million by volume so that saw in the vicinity of vote point. Oh two point Oh. Three percent of the atmosphere and the climate was quite stable so we had Warm interglacial periods. Like the one. We're in now followed by glacial periods. Where is would build up at the polls again and our ice core records saw give us record in the form of preserved bubbles of past atmospheres over about the last million years and in a sort of thermometer isotope thermometer reuse? That's preserved in the water molecules themselves. Okay so you say we had a parts per million of two to three hundred in the past pass what happened when the industrial revolution came along. Well what happened was at about seventeen fifty so not that long only a few hundred years ears. We were still in that range. We're at about two hundred eighty parts per million of co two in the atmosphere but When we started burning fossil fuel says an energy source worse all that co two would go into the atmosphere? Some of stay there. Some of it goes into the oceans and acidifies it when my parents were born in the nineteen fifties. So we're we're at a little over three hundred and ten parts per million and then when I was born about thirty years later it was three hundred and forty parts per million today where between four hundred and five and four hundred fifteen parts per million. So we're on track to double in the next few decades and when we look back at the longer time period earth scientists. We always think about things that happened. Tens of millions of years ago as being recent so a recent example of a very warm period in history history was during the Eocene and I was about fifty million years ago. There was a very pretty rapid increase of about five to nine degrees Celsius above above normal temperatures during the Eocene and co two levels. Were more than a thousand parts per million so more than double what they are today and some projections for the modern atmosphere. Indicate that we might be on track to reach C O two concentrations like fat by twenty one hundred while now the the other. The other part of the question was Where was the ears climate heading before we intervene so suppose? The Industrial Revolution had not happened. Had the industrial revolution not not happened. And had we not changed the composition of atmosphere we would have stayed in this warm interglacial period and Eventually we almost certainly would have gone back into an ice age somewhere within the next hundred thousand years and as far as we know that cycle would have continued. Oh Wow so we would have gotten colder under had we not intervened but our intervention pushed us over the edge in the other direction. Yes so in the past. How often has the earth had an ice age over the last eight hundred thousand years? It's been every hundred thousand years or so and that cycle has repeated many times so we broken that cycle with the industrial revolution at our extra carbon put into the atmosphere in so far as we know yes we're outside of the the range of C O two concentrations that we've seen the last million years so I mean we don't know where we're going next. We're definitely going into a warmer period on the longer. Timescale of millions wins of years. That's going to be a focus of ongoing research for scientists Dr Wilson. Thank you very much for your time. Thanks very much for yours awards. Dr Sasha Wilson is an associate professor in the Department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the University of Alberta in Edmonton Suzy. Then the question when the combs and all too soon. Here's the last question in this week. Show Hi my name is Christine eighteen horizon. I'm an elementary schoolteacher in Simcoe and -Tario and my students are always asking very good questions. One of my students Nathan wanted to know if if a virus doesn't have a nucleus how does it know how to attack other cells. Okay so Nathan's interested in how things go viral for the answer we go to Dr Sharon cautioned professor of pathology and Molecular Medicine at McMaster university. Dr Kasha welcomed quirks and quarks. But thank you Bob. I I appreciate the question. That kids are very very intelligent and smart these days they certainly are so Nathan. Probably learned that the nucleus is the control center of cell but a virus doesn't have a nucleus. So how does it know how to attack other cells so the viruses are actually not complete organisms. They don't have of the typical structure. That's there in a cell with the nucleus and all the organs so they carry the basic genetic information in the form of Arnie or DNA. Richard Blocks genetic information They can be packaged in different ways inside the virus and some viruses. Carry what we call the envelope pitch basically covers this genetic material and some viruses don't even have that so they're very basic organisms And the way the attack the cells olds. Is that this basic functional unit which is the genetic information covered by the envelope. comes in contact with the cell. There's a recognition Shen some mechanism. That goes on. It's like a lock and key kind of mechanism which the viruses used to turn the lock in the cell and then they enter ourselves ourselves and that's where they take over the cellular machinery they go inside the nucleus of the cell and then the US the entire cellular machinery to actually st make more copies of themselves. Okay so they can get into a cell and take over the cell to make copies of themselves but how do they find the cell in the first the place if they don't have any way of like finding things are moving up. Yes that's a really good question so you know I'm sure all of us are most of us would note that beer surrounded by all kinds of creatures that we can't really see with our eyes so right now on our on our skin and on our Body Nar hair. There's all kinds of bacteria security on viruses that I just floating around for example. The cold virus will that sitting on a door handle will now be on my hands. Which when I rob on my nose will we'll get inside my nose and there's a few different viruses that will do that? And then the ones that have the right fit for the cells inside my nose like a cold virus. Will you find the right cell. And that's when the lock and key start working so the key that's on the virus will now turn the lock on the salads inside my nasal passages the epithelial themselves And that's how they get in So that's so it some somewhat of a chance but frequently The viruses will be present where they are most likely clea to infect. So you're saying it's mostly just a mechanical thing. They just happened to be in the right place at the right time. They're not hunting us down in some kind of active way typically not but then viruses adopt very quickly as well so I was giving an example the other day that When we work in the lab in my lobby work with different kinds of irises? We worked with herpes viruses viruses we work with HIV viruses so in a lab in a in a petri dish we can make viruses infect cells that they normally wooden because we bring them enough numbers and enough proximity to actually make those viruses infect the cells boy viruses may be small. They may be simple but they're clever are very very much so Takashi. Thank you very much for your time. My Pleasure Dr. Sharon is a professor of pathology and Molecular Medicine at McMaster Astor University. And that's it for this New Year's edition of the quirks and quarks question show if you'd like to get in in touch with US or send us a question our email is quirks at CBC DOT CA or. Just go to the contact Lincoln. Our webpage and to get to our webpage just go to CBC DOT CA slash quirks. Where you can subscribe to our podcast? Listen to our audio archives or read my latest blog you can follow us on twitter and facebook look at CBC quirks you also get us on the CBC. Listen Up. It's free from the APP store or Google play Gorton courts has produced by CC wall. Sonia Sean you biting and Mark Crawley. Our senior producer is Jim. Lebron's I'm Bob McDonald. Thanks for listening for more C._B._C.. PODCASTS GO TO C._B._C. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.

professor University of Toronto John Brennan Dr Elena Baranova University of wealth Dr Ryan Gregory Argentina Dr Brian Carney Niagara Falls Bob MacDonald Dr. L. Adam McDonald Chile Vancouver curator of Paleontology Canada soccer Congo Erin fairweather
Overcome Sexual Fear, Open Up and Share Deeper Intimacy

Sex with Dr. Jess

36:48 min | 1 year ago

Overcome Sexual Fear, Open Up and Share Deeper Intimacy

"You're listening to the sacs with dr jess podcast sacks and relationship advice. You can us tonight. Hey hey hey this is just a rally your friendly neighborhood sexologist and i am joined today by individual couple and sex therapist toronto-based cat cova. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Now your leisure your sex therapist. What drew you to the world of sex therapy. Yes so. I'm your friendly neighborhood sex there. <hes> and it's so funny i actually people don't really believe me when i say this but i wanted to be a sex therapist. From the age of ten i i was so in love with a doctor sue johanneson on the sunday night sex show and what i found to be so interesting about her was that she just delivered education and in an entertaining way and she seemed to really be meeting the need that that didn't seem to be met anywhere else that i was exposed to and so for better or worse yeah that's kind kind of how i got into it and i always really wanted to <hes> develop into someone that i felt like was missing in my life who i wanted to talk to when i was a little kid so that's kind of part of my story so sue johannesen had a nationally syndicated television show in canada. It used to be on sunday night so she. She was sort of our canadian version of dr ruth. She was a little bit more subdued than dr ruth right a little bit less of a caricature you say i i found her to be outrageous. I mean have you seen her on conan o'brien. Yes she's very funny. She likes drops a dildo to her. I don't remember that she's about the eighty or so. I mean i thought she was eighty back when she was on the show in the eighties so i i can't imagine but she was really great at what she did and she really did it. Just deliver the goods matter of fact of course people will look back and say oh but she said this or she said that yes. It was twenty thirty years ago. Some things have changed but she was a trailblazer in the field so you followed in her footsteps. Did you go straight and steady sexuality right away or is it a path that kind of led back to to where you are today yeah. It's definitely something that i was led back to you because they didn't tell anyone at the age of hand. I wanted to be a sex therapist. I thought they would really look let me look. I was very strange and people still do by the way <hes> because it's very unorthodox particularly in my community which is the serbian community <hes> and it was something that i really decided on when i was about twenty two and i was alone in tokyo jio working there <hes> and decided i really wanna do something that has a lot of purpose in my life. When i was in tokyo is working in a job that i didn't really like take a year off from school so it was between my b._a. In psychology and then i decided to do a certificate and sexuality studies at york university versity and went on to do my master's at the university of wealth in couple and family therapy 'cause i thought that would really give me an opportunity to discuss couple issues and and how sexuality is such a big important part of couple relationships so that was a really good path for allowed me to do what i really want to do which is to talk about insights with couples and individuals all day long and so the couples who come to you what would you say is the top issue with which they're presenting. I would say hey that with individuals men and women. I don't see a lot of trans folks. I think they have a lot of barriers to accessing <unk> treatment <hes> so it's mostly men and women and couples and the all present most commonly with <hes> desire issues so what they would terminus thomas low desire or erectile dysfunction say that with quotations because it's you know i don't like that term. It's it's not not necessarily a dysfunction and it's interesting because i took a couple of calls and emails last week from healthy young men in their thirties who are having difficulties with erection and psychogenic meaning that they're thinking about something. That's stressing them out. Usually oh my gosh am i going to lose erection and they develop develop a physiological response to that anxiety which is that they lose their erection and of course cyclical and circular because they think about it. They lose it. They think about they lose. It and i don't know if you find this but simply the reassurance that this happens to every damn person with a penis every single one of y'all at some point in time more than once it will happen helps them to know that they're not alone because they have this issue oftentimes they stay in a relationship relationship that they're not even happy with because they don't want to move onto another partner who's going to find out and in the secrecy breach shame and the shame of course reinforces the anxiety and and and so on but simply the reassurance that you know you're not alone like this is. This is surmountable. This can be overcome. That's the biggest thing it's like it will happen. It's really reassuring sharing to know that it will happen and a little trick. I think i like to <hes> tell guys who are struggling with this or people with penises who are struggling with this is to actually intentionally lose their erection so that a gain comfort with it. Something called the stop restart techniques so you're kind of just on your own or with a partner you're having some stimulation you get an erection and then you intentionally stopped the stimulation lose the election and and then you kind of keep going and you stop and restart and it's great because you just learn not to freak out and you're kind of cured from it the next time that it happens. You don't freak out because the world did not end. Your partner didn't run away. It's not the last time you'll ever have sex and this. This is a cognitive behavioral method right in terms of facing your anxiety head on actually go and expose yourself to that anxiety provoking stimulus and and you see that you know what it's okay it happened. It doesn't mean it'll happen every single time now. Let's talk about desire. So why do your clients. It's not experience the desire they want yeah. That's a really great question. No i'm just circling back to your other question. About what are the most common issues i would say so erectile again not dysfunction but we throw around that term because it's so commonly used in the literature so e d desire and communication issues <hes> and i think all three they kind of at the root of it are <hes> problems with anxiety different types of anxiety and it could be the fear it could be shame that's present within that anxiety and there's so many different influences i think <hes> so many different factors that contribute to it so the big the the big thing that i see is beliefs about sexuality impacting. You know who can initiate what what can i say during sex. Can i get what i want. During intercourse or intimacy or can even get what i wanted my relationship my allowed. What do i deserve to say what i want from my partner or say what it is that i want and get it from my partner so cultural beliefs jason kind of the societies that were raised in they have a really big influence on actual physiological responses and the connection between the brain and the body is is just so i think it's not really talked about but we're not just floating heads on disconnected from our body the to talk to one another and inform the responses that we have down there. So what do we do to overcome. Let's let's take a common challenge so somebody feels shame around asking for what they want because it's not a dominantly reflected desire so it's maybe it's not sex in the dark in the missionary position with someone you love. Maybe they want something kinky or maybe they want something a little wilder. Maybe they want it more frequently. How do you overcome the shame <hes> and simply we come to terms with your own desires and feel good about what you want whether you want not at all or you want it every single day in some kinky way <hes> oh man i think it's a really personal journey for everyone and where i see this <hes> the most is in people that come into into therapy and they've just cheated on their partner <hes> and they've cheated not just with you know someone else and had the same type of sex but they actually went and they got their needs met for a particular kink or for a particular fetish that they've never actually revealed to their partner because as of incredible shame profound shame around this and usually it happens in the shadows right like an affair happens in the shadows where it's a bit more protected and the same stakes are not there. A relationship is not at stake love. Perhaps sometimes is not at stake. Sometimes you go a sex worker and they provide that kind of service free of judgment free of shame aiman <hes> free of any kind of attachment to or expectation and so it becomes this really freeing thing that allows people to explore their kinks and fetishes and <hes> at sometimes at the expense of their relationship when when the fares discovered <hes> and often i find the other partners really upset that they didn't just tell them and so. I think it's just knowing like you can really really be yourself. It's something worth doing to try to be yourself in your relationship and not hide from your partner how to go about that. That's really that's very very scary thing to do. Yeah i think oftentimes we tell ourselves a story in our head. If i tell my partner this they will freak out if i reveal what i really want. They're going to judge me. If i share my deepest darkest most salacious fantasy they're gonna go running for the hills and running for the hills would be the negative consequence being judge would be the negative consequence quincy your partner freaking out would be the negative consequence but then you go go and find that someplace else cheat on them and all three of those negative consequences arise nonetheless and in addition to those negative consequences a lot of hurt it on both sides and probably intensified shame on your own so there is this need to communicate so when a couple comes to you and they're having trouble communicating hating their fantasies or the desire is whether they be kinky or edgy or vanilla. How do you facilitate that conversation. Is there an exercise you do with them in session or for homework mark while sometimes i get couples to kind of reveal their fantasies to one another <hes>. I think i was joking with you earlier when i when when i got here that i almost didn't make it there was a car accident on the way <hes> there was a power outage but my partner and i were in bed this morning too and we kind kind of accidentally slipped into talking about fantasies with one another and that was another reason that there was no car accident. The power is just is fine. We were just talking talking. Fantasy leads to sex oftentimes. I really kinda did and we didn't really expect for it to who <hes> but you know it was just kind of one of those things that kind of a showed a different side of ourselves to one another and esther pearl talks talks about this a lot when there's a bit of distance between you and your partner when there's a little bit of mystery or something is revealed that you didn't know about your partner who you've been taking. Maybe maybe for granted or who you think you knew everything about who feels so familiar to you. That's when that desire is created of course because when you first met them part of the allure of this person isn't that that they were younger or hotter or more exciting than it's that you didn't know them unknown exciting. You know i remember the moment i found out brandon had a rat till when he was little such turn see that ono attornal he totally had a rat tail but he did not told me about it but it's so cool when you've been with someone for so long to learn anything new about them whether it's a vulnerability or a fantasy or something from their past or something that concerns earns them and so okay so let's say i come to you with my partner and i am having trouble talking about a specific fantasy. Is there a question you try and address. Is there a way you can try and draw out. I'll tell you one way i do it. In a couple okay is i have the whole group draw their fantasies and they only have a minute and most people can't draw i mean some people are annoying and they're great artists. Good for your people. Most of us have to label things and then we crinkle them into a ball. We throw them all all around the room and then when we don't know where horse has landed it becomes anonymous we open them up and we try and decipher them and it's really funny because i remember brian included mine once and it was just threesome and somebody said this one is having sex with a donkey and a dog. I'm like that's not a donkey and a dog. Those are humans man in june and sex consensual human threesome sex but it can be really funny and i think the laughter cuts the tension. Oh i love that you're going to definitely do therapy pinky that is amazing. It's kind of like the snowball technique great. Oh my god. I love that with fantasies. That's brilliant <hes> <hes> no. There's you know what i think coming into sex therapy. That is the practice first of all therapy. I think happens opens within the context of a relationship so you as a therapist have a relationship with your client and it kind of parallels or mirrors the relationships that you have outside of therapy room and and sometimes we can use that information highlight at back to the client to say like hey actually. I'm noticing that you're holding back. You're having a really hard time with this. Can you tell me why and kind of assess figure out what is the reason behind not being able to talk about something and and then when you identify what it is like it might be well. I never really got to talk about sex with my parents or with friends or i've always been a really shy person percents then you can work on that but they get that practice. I ask some very direct questions. You know almost with every client i ask and do you masturbate. How do you masturbate. When did you start masturbating. What kind of pornography or fantasy do you use. What's been a longstanding fantasy that you've had god which really reveals a lot about people as you said you decipher them and you kind of look at what's going on for that person and in doing that in actually just getting that experience and talking to someone maybe for the first time about such personal things they get the experience and they get the confidence confidence to then go and talk to their partner and have that same type of intimate i call it intimacy with my clients because we have really intimate conversations and we have a connection and <hes> that they can go ahead and do that with their partner. Yeah and we often use the word intimacy as a euphemism for sex when in fact that's really not what intimacy is sex can be a part of intimacy but as you said these conversations can be even feel even more deeply meaningful so i wanna go back to those questions because some people will be able to go seek hack ova at her therapy practice in toronto others will be able to get in touch with you for phone and online counseling but for those who don't for those who want to start today those those were some difficult questions you asked specifically the one about how do you masturbate <hes> because that would be difficult for many of us to describe and so if it's difficult to describe to a therapist it might be even good to start with yourself right now so if you want to wherever you are listening right now start with those questions for yourself so if you could go through them one more time oh sure okay if they are a little different because i'm sure every situation is different. Yeah absolutely <hes> i think kind of do you masturbate is number one because some people i just don't even think that that's accessible to them. <hes> what are some societal messages or messages you got from your parents and your religious just leaders or whatever it is about doing that. Is that a barrier and then if you do how do you do it to you. You know what parts of your your body do you touch. I have a vulva puppet. <hes> of course you kind of sex therapist doesn't have about that yeah. They actually got into the silent island auction at a sex conference funny in atlanta was the this scientific society for the scientific study of sexual exactly they had had a silent auction. I solve all the puppets me and another person. I were just fighting for. It's ended up being like outrageously expensive and so i try and use it as much as possible awesome so i get more bang for me. Gotta get that money's worth spending money on volvo what you want every last drop. I have two in the drawer next to you. Every i'm not surprised every last drop that was epic so anyways i kind of use that and i ask the people like where where do you touch yourself. <hes> if i'm working with couples like do you know where she or he or they like to be touched etched and sometimes they don't even know the proper words for the different body parts which are so important. What part do you test you. Catch your entire volva a to touch the clitoral hood you insert some fingers or toy into your vagina and do you know the difference. And when did you start. What are you fantasize about. You know how do you feel about it. How do you feel about it. I think it's a great place for all of us to start that set a lot of questions. We work in the field. We ask other people to do this contemplation to share with us but even i think for me to stop and think about those things right now would be really useful to better understand myself and part of why we don't communicate with our partners is because we don't even know what we want ourselves. We don't know what our sexual values. Oh you is are. We don't know what our own desires are because the messages around sex are so not only strong but conflicting <hes> right you're supposed to be so sexual and so good good at it but not too good right or not to sexual and of course it varies with your gender with your age with your race with your class all of these fact with your your body type your ability all of those things interfere or intersect with what we're allowed to want what we're allowed to do absolutely yeah. We have that whole madonna hord. I caught him. E going on that we grow up with these are things you can do outside of marriage. These are things that you can do within marriage or a long term partnership. Although it's usually marriage we'll talk about that the madonna whore complex because i don't think we've talked about that on the podcast for ya i mean it's this idea that with you know with your wife for your the mother of your child you can only have a certain type of sex and maybe more polite type of sex and then you know outside side of your marriage you can actually explorer some of those kings or fetishes or something. You know a bit more naughty <hes> with someone else right right but you can't combine those two things together. You can't look at your wife. Let's say for example. We're using kind of heterosexual context and within the context text of marriage <hes> you can't see her as both a mother and a woman sexual woman a desiring woman a naughty woman <hes> and and this happens a lot and is really i see that a lot linked to when people people go out and have affairs unfortunately right and sometimes it has to do with the relationship where all you ever talk about is parenting and your children but sometimes sometimes it is. I think a cultural learning that results in this mental block that you did the obviously we're looking to overcome this dichotomy because if you wanna be in a long term monogamous relationship you're going to have to learn to see your partner regardless of gender as sexy as a sex object and i tell people this all the time like just because you love and respect your partner doesn't mean you can't treat them like a piece of meat sometimes or go food my vegetarian friends. I mean you wanna look at them like an animal. I'm all right and you can do that and be respectful and you can play with lines of playful. Let's say role playing disrespect. That's something i love like but my husband loves me so much. He is so nice to me. I feel like anything i do. He's just always gonna love me and so so i'm quite turned on by the subversive of which is feeling a little jealous feeling not good enough. Do i actually in life. Wanna feel not good enough of course not but insects. I love taking that subversive emotion because i feel so safe and playing with it a little <hes> so can i ask you something about your relationship. <hes> does having that type of emotional closeness and safety with brandon does does that allow you due to be a little bit more free and a little bit more kincannon your sex life yet yeah yeah you know i've always said that you know i think the formula is to build a foundation that is so strong so healthy and so loving and so respectful that you can make space for risk because if we're already on shaky ground i'm not gonna wanna go to those risky places like and of of course we have times in our year in our month in our relationship where we are more on shaky ground. I can even speak on a micro level with my cycle like. I don't want want those same subversive. Perhaps people would consider them demeaning experiences when i'm when i'm approaching my period because of my hormones are changing. My mood is changing. My that confidence is not as high. I'm tired. I'm cranky. I'm mad about the mess on the floor. I don't know i actually do but i want a different type of have sex and and so you have to have the ability to communicate the specificity of your desires to your partner because it's one thing for me to say hey babe. I want you to make me feel jealous. It turns me on okay but if he does that at the wrong time in the wrong place when i'm in the wrong mood that's gonna backfire so have to be more specific and say hey by love to feel jealous when and before you do it. I need you to make me feel this way and after you do it. This is how you can support me specific very sorry. I love and you have to continually do that in a relationship. You can't just have one conversation about right talk. Vote the the birds and the bees with your bone and you just have to keep on talking about it because you're every i mean we don't exist in a vacuum humor. Sexuality doesn't exist in a vacuum something that a coworker said to you earlier that day could spark some kind of trauma that you experienced danced when you're younger and you're in a completely different place and you need a different type of nurturing perhaps through sexuality or a different type of energy exchange through <hes> sex yeah yeah and so what can couples do say on a daily basis. I love to think of things they can do in sixty seconds if they know they're feeling a certain way today and maybe they didn't maybe a coworker didn't trigger my trauma but they piss me off. They pushed one of my buttons and i come home and ninety nine out of one hundred days. If brennan were to approach specific way it would feel good. Today's not the day. How can we communicate that to our partners. When we walk through the door before we get home. It's such a great question yeah because it kind of takes consent outside of the bedroom and really highlights how important that is to that we highlight for our partners or communicate to our partners rather <hes> the boundaries that we have around our energy levels right and saying something like right now babe. I just just need ten minutes to decompress from work. I need to take a shower. I just need to just have quiet. That's what i'm really craving right now uh-huh and when i have those ten minutes it's going to be so delicious. I'm gonna feel so happy that i had them and then we can reconnect and an to your question about what what's something that couples can do in sixty seconds. Let's see when they're trying to negotiate or someone is trying to initiate sexual encounter run erotic encounter with someone and you're not really in the mood. I challenge those people who are a default no to give themselves some time time to really understand where that no is coming from is it. Is it a just a no because you have some rules. Rules about. Sexuality is a no because you think if i don't get enough sleep then tomorrow is going to be things. I mean this tomorrow. We're going to be chaos. Is that anxiety what is going on for you and give yourself like ten. I mean sixty seconds. Give yourself ten minutes to figure out what is actually going on one for you and if that no can be turned into all right. Maybe let's. Let's kinda. See how it goes and know that you can stop at any time and you yeah you can say no. I'm not in the mood and you can say if you prefer no. I'm not in the mood. Let's see if i can get in the mood right because there there is this myth of spontaneous desire like go to work all day cook dinner. Do the dishes you know help. The kids was home. We're put them to bed. Talk to your mother in law on the phone. Get into bed and like yeah. Let's do head but not particularly realistic yeah when you're first dating you. Might you know carry around gum or mints all the time. You're dressed to the nines. You're looking really flawless trying really hard right to put your best foot forward but when you're let's say you've been living together for a while l. and you've seen each other through the good times and the bad times through health and sickness and wake up in the morning and you have like really bad breath and your partner rolls over and they're like hey what's up abe wanna fool around and your response might be an immediate no because you're not feeling that fresh if that's that's the case get up and take a shower. <hes> there is no such thing as spontaneity. It's a myth right that the myth of spontaneity is interesting interesting because we do believe that in the beginning everything we did was spontaneous when in fact the opposite is true hours and days went into planning thing and creating what seemed to be at the moment a spontaneous encounter false right but we fun back then right so you had to make a plan plan to meet up you probably if it's modern dating you've texted and been a little bit playful before you've gotten dressed. You've gotten ready. You've carved out the time. I'm somehow your roommates not going to be home or you're gonna find a quiet place to do a private place to do it or not. You know if you're wild like that. Maybe someplace public and we look back and say oh but it just happened back then when as you said it's so a lot of effort went into it but when we ask people in relationships to do the same they're like odd seems seems like a lot of work seems like a lot of work and also there's a resistance to be being intimate with someone if that desire doesn't feel spontaneous and that's true for men and for women like if they're not feeling tinguely down there spontaneously <hes> they think that the are not interested or that that it's not an option and so they wait and they wait and they wait and they say ou planned sachs like a sex day like a a night out that supposed to result in sacks. That's not cool. That's not spontaneous. That's not sexy but i think the exact opposite is true. I think you're intentionally nationally creating a scenario where you can both relax and creates base to be in the mood. I and to be together intimately. It doesn't even always have to result in the sex because i hear a lot of for instance. New parents say you know what if we can get a night alone. We just want a good nights and i think that's perfectly quickly find too. You know i i've been in that scenario where i'm away for a while and i think i'm you know ms brandon and i miss sleeping with him and i missed the sex and i think that the moment i get home home going to want to jump his bones but honestly sometimes i'm flying back from india or sometimes. I'm flying back from china and time i get here. I don't want to jump anyone's bones. I i need to sleep. I and then we can do it in the morning or if we do it the next day or the next day we will survive you don't have to. I think we make too big of a deal about sex. I think we do so. I mean we have been talking about for the making a big deal but it it yeah i mean we kind of were over sexton under sex the same time and we have this idea about how much how much sex we should be having. That's not really an important question. People are obsessed i with it. They are obsessed how often they're doing it. They're counting instead of just focusing on the quality and the experience and how good they're doing it. I fell into that yeah. Yeah i am me to i fall into the pressure. Like how long has it been since we've done it and for me. It often has to do with my own frustration with myself for not making king time before you go i want. I want to ask you something about my life so brennan. I have been together a while. If i were to come to you in therapy and had to pick an issue issue to address because you do do brief solution focused therapy so we can look for specific outcome. The issue. I address involves what i might call complacency so so we've been together eighteen years we have sex pretty regularly feels really really good. It's tough like so good for me but i find that oftentimes. I just wanna do it. In the way that it works works like the way i know it works at sort of like going to a new restaurant so i could go to a new restaurant but i really don't have a good meal and i know this other restaurants really good and then i might miss out on trying something new and exciting so you know we've done lots of wild stuff over the years whether it's simple stuff like toys to going to sex clubs zirkin clubs or more edgy stuff and right now. I feel like we're in this tried and true period and here's the thing so i ask asked myself what i would tell a client on one hand. It feels really good for me like it's just really really good so. Why do i feel pressure to spice it up and fix what's broken. I don't need to be swinging from chandeliers chandeliers. I don't need to be frolicking in the woods <hes> because it is feeling really good on the other hand. I know that i shouldn't wait until i'm bored to do something about it. So should i keep doing what i'm doing and maybe change it up once in a while to try something new <hes> and so yeah what should i do save my sex life and i mean it doesn't sound like you need saving. It sounds like what you've been doing is really pleasurable and it works and it's so good <hes> even after eighteen years now wow i'm one hundred we met really young well. You're you're a young looking hundred oil of olay thrust today thrice so oh my advice. I don't really give advice. I am curious about where the it sounds like. There's a little bit of presure sure feeling shoes pace it. Oh and you're kind of looking at it's been a long term relationship and we kinda keep doing the same thing over and over. That really works works for us. <hes> is there are some fear around what that means for you and your relationship. Yeah i think for me. It's always a fear of being bored because i get get bored really of being bored. I'm afraid i could get boring or being boring. Yes is more that yeah because i am you know. Maybe i need to take the time game and i wish brandon was here to talk to him about how he's feeling <hes> because i think i'm probably more easily open about what i want. <hes> but you're right. I'm fee. I fear being bored myself. And of course i fear being boring like the boring sexologist. Can that be about house. No yeah no i. I think i might start this podcast. I have those same exact fears right. I have those exact same fears but i find that if you can tell your partner that like hey i'm i'm feeling like i'm really enjoying what's happening but from time to time. I get a little bit scared that maybe you're bored and i mean what's really behind that is kind of an attachment fear right. You're afraid of losing someone. You're afraid if you don't keep their interest to sustain it long enough that they're we're going to look elsewhere among the will leave you. That's our biggest deepest fear of humans and so when you say that in the context of couples therapy and i use emotionally focused couples therapy. It's all about expressing what your deepest fears are to your partner when you're feeling that overwhelming emotion that that fear and then in doing got if your partners very responsive and if they're sensitive to your needs it's in those moments they can reassure you and that can lead to a different kind of connection and maybe a different kind of erotic experience too. I i'd like that so emotionally focused therapy which involves looking at your deepest fears as it applies to sex. I think i'm gonna try that so if i were to begin with one question for myself. Where would i begin if i'm not pleasing my partner if my partner is not sexually satisfied <hes> then what do i imagine will oh happen with my worst possible case scenario. Maybe share that okay your partner with brandon not with all you folks on that note. We we have to stop. I'd love to have you back again. When brendan's here maybe we can do a sessions types types episode. I'm in that really interesting. So where can people find you cap so i do have a website where you can submit a contact contact for him if you're interested in coming in on your own or with a with a partner or partners <hes> it's w._w._w. Dot cat cova therapy dot com. My office is at three twenty danforth avenue and in suite two oh two and it's right next to chester station and so it's just a quick t. c. ride away from pretty much anywhere in the city us so that that's in toronto and also have a youtube channel coming out called. My therapist says as you know people can check in their subscribe and advanced. Thank you so much for being here really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having such a blast. I'll see you soon. Thank you thank you you to you for listening and thank you once again to desire resorts and cruises for your ongoing support of this podcast follow along at desire experience wherever you're at have a great week folks. Will we back every friday with a new episode. You're listening listening to the sex with dr jasser podcast improve your sex life improve your life.

partner ms brandon dr ruth toronto conan o'brien york university dr jess tokyo canada sue johanneson sue johannesen university of wealth volvo brendan chester station brian quincy atlanta Dot