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An Unfinished Lesson

Hidden Brain

49:01 min | 1 year ago

An Unfinished Lesson

"From NPR. This is hidden brain. I'm Sean Covey Danton. For months. People were afraid. The virus outbreak started out small but then grew exponentially within days. Every part of the country every part of the world was affected uncertainty and confusion abounded misjudgements about how to fight. The pandemic proved catastrophic. All this rings true today but it was also true a century ago almost exactly one hundred years ago a new infectious disease swept the world. My guest. This week says the lessons from that outbreak are instructive. If only stop to listen Nancy. Bristow is a historian at the University of puget sound. She's the author of American Pandemic. The Lost Worlds of the nineteen eighteen influenza epidemic. Nancy thank you for joining me today on hidden brain. Thank you so much. Give me a sense of the scale of the nineteen eighteen pandemic Nancy. This was a massive event inside the United States. More than a quarter of Americans were sickened by the time. The pandemic was through six hundred. Seventy five thousand Americans would die and the estimates vary for the world for somewhere between fifty and one hundred million people and a third of people on the globe were likely infected so this was not the first time. The country had been affected by an influenza outbreak What is it that made this strain so dangerous Nancy? The influenza virus is a very clever virus. It's constantly changing drifting through limited but frequent changes in its genetic makeup during the reproduction process. But sometimes there's a thing called Antigen shift. It's a much more dramatic. Transformation when a single cell host two separate and distinct strains of influenza and during the reproduction process recombines those two parental strains into a new hybrid virus a virus for which. No one is prepared. No-one has immunity so of course because the virus sort of strikes with some regularity every our people have developed some immunity. Your point is that when the virus mutates in this fashion it essentially a striking a naive population exactly so many people believe the nineteen eighteen outbreak in the United States. I began at an army camp in Kansas Tell me about Camp Funston. We'll camp funston was one of many places in the United States where American soldiers were training for the first World War and that spring they experienced a somewhat unusual example of influenza and as it traveled through the army camps a few pathological notice that there was something unusual post morning exams at the victim show kind of soggy lung but in general most Americans didn't notice it and this first wave with its origins and Kansas would pass the United States almost entirely unnoticed except by few military epidemiologists and so once it strikes in Camp Funston Soldiers presumably are moving about the country. They're moving from camp to camp. What happens to the virus while the virus of course is continuing to do its work of infecting American soldiers and traveling with them? I all over the country and then of course it will become more noticeable because it will travel with those American troops over to the European battlefields by April it spread to the British and German forces by May the French troops are infected. And then of course by that summer Italy and Spain will also be infected by June it would infect Britain and in July citizens all over the continent of Europe would be infected with this first wave So you mentioned a second ago of course that this pandemic is unfolding at a time when the world is engulfed in war and the virus travels from the United States to Europe to the countries of Europe. But it's also travelling to the theaters of war in Europe Tell me what was happening on the Western Front Nancy. Well of course. The Western Front is deep in the throes of this war. American troops are just beginning to arrive in large numbers. In the spring of nineteen eighteen. The Nation had joined the war in April of Nineteen Seventeen. So the war is ongoing. It is deep. Millions of people have already died in trench warfare and by the spring of one thousand nine hundred eighteen. The United States has entered. And we're beginning to see a new round of assaults a new round of battles and so the opportunity for the virus in a sense is unlimited. You have a virus ready to attack the very people who are in those trenches the target audience for the virus young people across the Western Front which is essentially the dividing line between the German forces and the allied forces. You have these trenches and you have this very lengthy period of trench warfare unfolding in World War One Conditions are pretty dismal health conditions. Of course a terrible from the viruses perspective of course this is actually ideal conditions to spread and grow and mutate. Exactly not only. Do you have a number of people far too many close together. We know. Now that social distancing the best thing we can do to prevent the virus is spread but in one thousand nine eighteen you have large numbers of people both in training camps and then on the battlefields themselves and these are often people with compromised health already. They're living in horrible conditions. They may be undernourished. They're certainly not sleeping well. So you have a large population that is simply an easy field in a sense for this virus so the chronology here is that early in nineteen eighteen. Perhaps where the epicenter at Camp Funston. The virus starts to spread in the United States Primarily following the pats of soldiers. It goes to Europe. It mutates it changes it becomes more deadly and then something really dramatic happens that August and in the fall of nineteen eighteen What HAPPENS NANCY? Well it's really an explosive moment the virus emerges in this new form on three continents almost simultaneously in Freetown Sierra Leone in Brest France and in Boston here in the United States word arrives on August twenty seventh and then over the course of just two months by the end of October. The entire United States will be awash in disease from Buffalo to Birmingham from Pittsburgh to Portland. No one will be able to hide from this illness and the same thing is happening worldwide. And of course the picture you've painted is that the virus having mutated and become in some ways more deadly in Europe when it returns to the United States presumably. It's much more dangerous now. That's exactly right. At this point it is very very contagious. And also deadly probably about twenty eight percent of Americans will be sickened by the virus and in the end as I mentioned six hundred seventy five thousand people in the United States will die the morbidity rates in the United States will range in different communities sometimes as high as forty percent. The mortality rate is also very high somewhere between two and two and a half percent to put that in perspective. Seasonal influenza is at point one percent so this is something like twenty five times as lethal as regular seasonal influenza so the second wave of the influenza epidemic run through the fall of nineteen eighteen and as you've described it's truly devastating and then almost incredibly there is a third wave of the epidemic strikes early in one thousand nine thousand nineteen. What happens here Nancy? It's horrific for communities in many cases that are just coming off the second wave. Perhaps they've just reopened their schools. Stores are open again. Perhaps movie theaters and saloons are up and running once again and then people begin to sicken all over again and they suffer through a third wave again. This time quite noticeable because Americans are on high alert having just recovered from or in some cases still in the throes of the second wave so again people are just beginning to breathe again just beginning to relax and suddenly. The disease is back debts from influenza outbreaks. Tend to have what you call a U shaped curve. When it comes to the age of victims most victims are very young children. Very old People was that the case where the nine thousand nine hundred thousand nine hundred nineteen epidemic. This was something else that made this particularly horrific in nineteen eighteen. The mortality chart had a w shape in other words those between the ages of twenty and forty were particularly susceptible and so in fact almost fifty percent of the epidemic deaths in the United States. Were twenty to forty year olds the very people who are the mothers and fathers of young children. They may be the teachers in schools there. The firefighters and the police officers. They're the people who are in a sense. The the guts of a society the people who are keeping a place up and running and that population was struck desperately by this particular virus. I'm wondering if this might be partly connected to the chronology that you unfolded a few moments ago when the virus essentially traveled from the United States to Europe and spread In the theater of World War. One it's primarily victims. Were people again in the in the prime of their lives. Young men in the Twenties and thirties and obviously for the virus to to essentially acquire a foothold in the trenches required. The virus mutates or that it would be effective Among people in their twenties and thirties which might explain why when it returned to the United States the victims were not just the very young and the very old but people in working age people often the prime of their lives. That's a really interesting theory. Not being an epidemiologist. I won't go too far on this. But certainly the war played a fundamental role in furthering the virus in facilitating its mutation and the opportunity provided by all of those soldiers again really was the groundwork laid out there for the virus so some of the best accounts of the outbreak Come to us not from doctors and scientists by from writers Tell me the story of Catherine Porter and the novella she wrote about the nineteen eighteen influenza epidemic. This is really a remarkable novel. One of the best sources. We have on the influenza pandemic because it's told from the perspective of a patient rather than the perspective of a physician. Kathryn porter was a journalist living in Denver at the time and she wrote a novella later years later in the nineteen thirties recounting her own experience with the influenza pandemic. She had sickened And while she was sick her her dearly beloved a young soldier named Adam also sick and then he died and when she woke up she came back to a world that was not the one she had laughed and she was was really quite tortured in a sense by the loss that she suffered during the pandemic and she gives us a full account almost a blow by blow of what it was like to go through this illness at the very beginning. She's not quite clear on what's happening. Because again the pandemic was new and so she talks at first about not being able to smell or see or hear she says I must have a fearful cold and then she begins to talk about something much more fearful much more frightening. This is the beginning of the end of something. Something terrible is going to happen to me. Shanty bread and butter where I'm going. I will it to chuck. He has venerable father by hooch for. I hope they let him have it. Oh Adam I hope I see you once more before I go under with whatever is the matter with me. And she can't control going. In and out she keeps wishing that she can come out of her dream so that she can talk to him. I have pains in my chest and my head and my heart and they're real. I'm in pain all over and you are in such danger as I can't think about. And why can we not save each other and at this point? She's not actually able to see Adam. He's been called back to camp and by the time he tries to return to her in the novella they will not allow him to see her and so they never see each other again and she goes off then into the delirium. That was common with those who suffered deeply from this panic at one point beforehand. She talks about loving to be alive. She says to Adam. Don't you love weather and the color is different times of the day and all the sounds and noises like children's screaming in the next lot then automobile horns on little bands playing in the street and the smell of food cooking. She seems to want to be alive. And then once she's really sick and goes into this very high fever and a delirium kind of dreamlike unconscious. State she doesn't so much give up as embrace. What's coming which for her appears to be the beauty of what comes after life. What death looks like to her when she is on the very cusp of it. So one recent that you've Looked at novels and other cultural artifacts is that historians have noted that the great pandemic of nineteen eighteen even though it costs so many lives were sort of quickly forgotten after the fact at talk to me about this idea that in many ways even though the the effects of the pandemic were really horrific it faded from public view at least relatively quickly it did and it's one of the things that I think. Historians have kind of puzzled over and even marveled about some people will simply dismiss it and say well. This is what people do. H L mencken wrote that the human mind always tries to expunge the intolerable from memory justice tries to conceal it while current in fact it seems to have been subsumed very easily. Under the memory of the war it did happen concurrently initially and the war was a much better story for the American people. At this time to remember the flu would be to admit to the lack of control that people had had over their own health. It would be to admit that the United States was not necessarily all powerful but was like everywhere else in the world subject victims to something beyond their control. You describe songs that have been sung about the flu especially in the tradition of the blues. Yes one of the rare places that we do see. The story of the flu told are in Blues Lyrics. And I think it's because this was actually a that had space in it for the kind of message that this was a horrific event through which people had suffered and which left in its aftermath. People lost confused and spend very frightened as he jenkins had a remarkable song called the nine. Hundred Nineteen Influenza Blues. Asked me and another good one is blind willie. Johnson's Jesus is coming soon. Nineteen and they got a about owner and on both of these stories of people suffering and dying and that this was really all part of God's plan that this was God's way of speaking to the people about their having drifted from their faith or having after it in some ways that were either shameful or simply incongruous with Christianity. God God and know what do they have to call her and banishing when we come back? What the nineteen eighteen influenza pandemic and the Corona Virus Pandemic of two thousand twenty reveal about human nature? You're listening to hidden brain and Shankar this is. Npr died battle field. I jobs and no I this season. Npr's visibility a- brings you seven hail. Marys stories of people who come up with improbable work arounds. To are very desperate problems. I'm Lee Spiegel. And I'm Hana Rosen. Invisibility is back historian. Nancy Bristow says the ferocity and Vera. Lynn's of the nineteen eighteen influenza pandemic caught the world by surprise but in many ways it shouldn't have been a surprise the pandemic Ahah world engulfed in war. We've seen how the movement of soldiers were a powerful vector for the virus but it went deeper than that Nancy. How did the conflict between nations change how they responded especially when it came to taking steps to limit the spread of the virus the war again really facilitated the viruses work in the United States? For Instance President Woodrow Wilson. Would never say never speak publicly about the pandemic even as more than half a million. Americans are dying of influenza. The president of the United States refused to speak of the crisis that was underway precisely because he was worried about the war effort he was so preoccupied with the prosecution of the war that he feared that people would lose sight of the most important business at hand which was for the United States to win the war. I understand that this was not limited to the United States The same thing was happening in Germany where people didn't want to communicate the idea that the epidemic was basically going to harm. Germany or undermining the war effort. That's exactly right and of course what we need. Most in the midst of a pandemic is good sound direct information from public health experts. And that's what many governments were fearing to share with their people and in fact that's how we end up with the misnomer Spanish. Influenza Spain was not participating in the first World War and so they were actually willing to share the reality of what was going on in their country quite publicly and so there was this assumption. That Spain was sick when no one else was and people came to call it. The Spanish flu quite unfairly in fact it may well have been an American flew a so I want to better understand the connection between the epidemic and human behavior by zooming in on what happened in one place Kansas City. You write that when the second wave of the epidemic hit in the fall of one thousand nine hundred eighteen. This was the deadliest wave. How did the leaders of Kansas City respond in fact Kansas City had a relatively common response? Public Health? Experts asked for there to be social distancing measures and the city followed through closing public amusements prohibiting large public gatherings again that social distancing that now is a term. That's become so familiar to all of us but happened in many many cities as the numbers of people being infected would begin to slow a bit. People WOULD RELAX. Eventually they would overturn. Those requirements are those restrictions. But of course there's another wave coming in with the arrival of another wave. The government wants to put back in place the same kinds of public health restrictions and the people are much less compliant much less interested in following the rules. They figure if it didn't stop it when we tried it last time. Why should we bother to try it again? So there's a kind of turning away from the public health expertise precisely because the virus came back but again that's what viruses do. It was no failure on the part of public health that the virus could return. But it's so understandable isn't it which is that you know you're you're trying to follow the public health guidelines and then the the virus comes back and you you start to question how good are these guidelines and then perhaps you follow some of the social distancing requirements that. I put in place and you do that for a couple of months and it's difficult because schools are closed. Businesses are closed and everyone's itching to get back to normal and then the third wave hits and at this point When when people say. Let's go back to social distancing. It's not surprising that people would say absolutely not. It's not surprising at all. I think it's a really important idea to put out in our minds that even if we follow the social distancing practices people will continue to sick and then people will continue to die. That doesn't mean that it's not working because those figures are going to be substantially lower than if we move forward without social distancing but people get frustrated again. Partly because it's really inconvenient. It is not that fun to be quarantined. It's not that fun to not be able to leave your homes and so people are anxious to get back to regular life and there's this suspicion that somehow well none of this is really working because people are still getting sick and dying. But that's not how we measure the success when there were in the midst of a deadly pandemic. So it's a really tricky thing isn't it because the counterfactual. Which is the number of people who might have died otherwise? That's something that a model is telling you. You have to trust the math over how you're feeling at that point that's right and in nineteen eighteen. They didn't have that mapping available to them. They couldn't look at models that would tell them. How many would have died? In fact our assumption that the social distancing worked is based on really careful research that has been done by epidemiologists and social historians who've looked at what took place in different communities and have been able to realize that places like Milwaukee Wisconsin or Saint Louis Missouri that followed the rules and really maintained their restrictions for the longer period of time. Just were more successful in keeping the death rates down you talk about the distinction between the city of Philadelphia. And you just mentioned Milwaukee. These cities very different response to the outbreak. Tell me what happened. In those cities and then what the outcome was in terms of mortality as a result of the epidemic in Philadelphia? They have somewhat corrupt political situation at the time. Philadelphia Health Commissioner Wilmer Gruson decides that even though the disease was spreading that the war was important. Heat allow the Fourth Liberty Loan Parade and event to take place on September. Twenty eighth at this point. We're already a month into its having arrived in the United States. Some two hundred thousand people showed up for that March and by the end of the flu season in fact some twelve thousand residents in Philadelphia had died now in some other cities. They move much more quickly. They prohibited parades and they were in fact able to cut the death rate in some cases by half was it partly because the residents in places like Milwaukee much more cooperative much more likely to listen to public health officials. That's part of it in Milwaukee. They have a very well established health board and Health Commission. They're very familiar. This is a city that has during the progressive era really embraced the idea of experts in the possibilities of reforming our communities and moving towards healthier cleaner safer lives by way of following. Sort of what science can teach us. So Milwaukee had a very robust public health system people familiar with it and in turn that because they had a good health board in place they were able. I think politically to do the work that needed to be done to get those restrictions in place to keep them in place for the longer period and in fact do more things in Milwaukee for instance they use quarantining as well as closing spaces prohibiting meetings and asking about the possibilities of public masking. They went all the way to enforcing quarantine as well. It really speaks to the importance of public institutions and the trust that people have in those institutions when when catastrophe strikes doesn't it absolutely and that's one of the things I worry about right now is the faith in government is a little bit shakier in two thousand twenty and it's going to be very important as we go forward to listen carefully to those public health leaders in particular the experts who really know what they're talking about and in nineteen eighteen in those communities where people did that. It really did make a difference. You describe how in Roanoke Virginia people with mild cases of the flu or people who had had the flu and recovered decided that quarantines really weren't for them anymore and this is again totally understandable. People were starting to Chafe after a few days or a few weeks of of enforced restrictions and and they said all right. I've sort of come out the other side. I'm fine I can go about my daily business again completely human but potentially really dangerous very dangerous not only for the individual who may have a relapse may not in fact be fully healthy yet but also for those around them. Their families would become ill or those who shops. They went to the people who might sit next to them in a movie theater. So extraordinarily dangerous to assume that one is healthy before one is verifiably over these illnesses because you can continue to shed the virus even after you begin to feel healthy. I want to be cautious about one. Point you know when we hear about roanoke or the difference between Philadelphia and Milwaukee. You know we know the people in Roanoke who breaking quarantine will make a mistake. We know that Milwaukee got it right in Philadelphia. Got It wrong but in some ways Nancy. I'm wondering if we know this because we know now how the pandemic turned out. We have the advantage of hindsight. There are proudly been dozens of other disease outbreaks where the Philadelphia response might have been just fine What I'm trying to get at is that there are huge social and economic consequences for shutting down schools and businesses. And those can harm people's lives too and I guess what I'm trying to say. Is that policymakers. When something is unfolding when a when an epidemic is unfolding. It's really difficult to actually know. Exactly what the right thing is to do because they're potentially devastating consequences regardless of which choice you pursue. That's so true and it's one of the things. I was worrying about on my way into work this very morning. As we're closing schools those hundreds of thousands of children who rely on school breakfast lunch. And in some cases even dinner. So policymakers in nineteen eighteen did not have the benefit of hindsight that we have as we look back at them. So you're right that in some ways. The critique of the policymakers really does have to be softened a bit in many cases they really were doing the best they could now in some cases I think we have corrupt politicians in some communities that are really thinking more about their political futures than the health of their communities in those cases. I think it is a little easier to point a finger but again and again and again we have to remember how difficult this is when you don't know where the pandemic is going and that is something that. I think I've never understood as well as I have in the last week. I'm wondering if one of the depot lessons here is not so much that some people will ride in some people were wrong But that you know as as a catastrophe was unfolding. Many people really didn't change their behavior. It's really difficult to get people to change their behavior for any for any length of time. That's right and in one thousand nine hundred eighteen. We have to remember the notion of germ theory at certainly caught on and was certainly fully embraced by the vast majority of of health providers but for the general public. There were still a lot of questions out there about how disease was transmitted. So the idea that washing your hands was important or that you wouldn't all drink out of the same. Drinking Cup was relatively foreign for some people. In fact it's during this pandemic that most American cities finally ban the Common Drinking Cup at places where people would gather to get water so again it was hard for people. Because on the one hand it's inconvenient and on the other they were asking for new habits things that had always been allowed to do before and suddenly you're not allowed for instance to spit on the street or to share a drinking cup that you had to cover your cough and sneeze and your elbow. These were new things. People were being asked to do in nineteen eighteen. One of the things. I found really interesting. Is THAT YOU CITE. A number of letters In your book these were letters. Written during the time of the nineteen eighteen pandemic one of them was written by the ABA tricks. Amelia earhart others were written by man. what did these letters say? And what do they what do they reveal? It's very interesting. The ways in which the reactions to the pandemic were actually somewhat gendered. We find that in the midst of this catastrophe as people are wrestling with something so new to them that there's a great deal sort of looking for security in how things are commonly done in grabbing hold of our traditional patterns and behaviors and so for women was much more common for them in their letters to talk about what they were. Seeing how frightened they were giving detailed outlines of who in the family or who the friend groups were ill and what was going on and really admitting upfront how frightening it all was and again. It feels so so typical because you sort of see some of the same things happening today. I feel like you have people reacting and fairly predictable ways some people saying we really have to be anxious and other people saying now. It's going to blow over in a couple of weeks. I think that's right. What's interesting is the ways in which in nineteen eighteen it is so profoundly about being male and female so that someone as well known as Amelia Earhart as she will become known right as a great aviator tricks said of the flu. I hate and fear at somehow more than a little having seen so much that I suppose as prejudiced me with the very uncertainty of treatment adding to the prejudice. She was working in an influenza ward. Knew what it looked like. And was sharing this with one of her friends and meanwhile men are worrying about not getting into the office and sending notes to one another apologizing for missing another day of work in the midst of the war You also note how gender in the form of social norms played a very powerful role you interviewed survivor of the nineteen eighteen epidemic when she was eighty five years old. Can you tell me the story of Lillian Cassiano which I can? This is a lovely woman. Lived in Tacoma when I interviewed her several years ago and she had lost her mother when she was only three months old and in her community. It was felt that men shouldn't live alone with daughters that they could not adequately raise children on their own and so she and her sister were sent away her sister to live some ways away with family and Lillian was actually Traded between members of the family for a couple of years before she finally was able to move in to a permanent situation with relatives in the same town as her father but she remembered for the rest of her life that this had cost her something. She didn't remember her mother but she remembered that she was somehow different from others. She knew that she and her sister had lost valuable years together during their youth and she felt that her life had been changed. She said that it had changed my life completely. It had to one. Level of virus is a biological organism. It's a creature of natural selection. It follows rules that have been studied for decades by epidemiologists but at another level of virus is a social organism it detects fissures in societies and exposes faultlines between communities that's when we come back. I'm Shankar Dada and you'RE LISTENING TO HIDDEN BRAIN. This is NPR. How do we reinvent ourselves? And what's the secret to living longer? I'm Rhody each week on. Npr's Ted Radio Hour. We go on a journey with Ted speakers to seek a deeper understanding of the world and to figure out new ways to think and create. Listen now Nancy. Bristow is the author of American pandemic the lost world of the nineteen eighteen influenza epidemic. She has studied the lessons of the deadly outbreak a century ago and she sees historical parallels with our own battle against the corona virus. Nancy you describe how the Red Cross wants went into a rural and disadvantaged part of Kentucky to help residents affected by the nineteen eighteen epidemic. How did volunteers related to the patients? While in the case of Kentucky. Not Very well as was common Often with visiting nurses as they would enter homes or communities that were not like their own middle class upbringing they would look down their noses somewhat disparagingly at the conditions that they found and in the case of Kentucky would say terrible things in fact they talked about them being desperately poor but they would also go on to say things like they were ignorant of the simplest principles of sanitation and hygiene that they were living in crowded quarters and they would almost make it seem as if the poor were responsible in fact for their own situation and that they were in fact causing the very epidemic conditions. From which they were reeling. You would imagine it would be difficult for the volunteers to truly play helping role when they had such attitudes about the people they were trying to help. I think that's right. In some cases they could be useful and it was usually I think especially those who had a much more compassionate and empathetic approach to those who were not just like them who could enter a home and recognized that the reason it was dirty was because both parents were working. The reason that there wasn't as much clothing or it's clean of clothing was because the family was strapped. The reason it was called was because perhaps they couldn't afford to buy coal and so again those who could recognize difference as coming not from innate human lacking but rather from circumstance from actual social conditions. Those were the people I think who had the most opportunity to facilitate good health into actually help people move forward out of this pandemic towards health. How did these class divisions in class attitudes shaped the way people reached out to others In terms of charitable donations in terms of being willing to extend a helping hand did people in general in the public see? The poor is essentially being somehow responsible for for for their illnesses. At this time there really was a lot of distinguishing by those in the middle and upper classes that among the poor there were those who were worthy and those who were not and to be worthy met a few very particular things one. It meant that everyone in the household was working in other words. If you're going to pull yourself up by your bootstraps everybody better be helping with Paul. In other cases. If families didn't adhere to certain American traditions they might have a different spiritual system. They may have come from a different part of the world and not speak English yet. Anything that made them seem somehow different would also sometimes categorized people as the other in a sense and make them somehow more suspicious Not Quite as quote worthy of the kind of care that charitable organisations were happy to give to some people I'm thinking of some of the figures that are already emerging in the present day in the United States in the context of the corona virus. You know if you're a white collar worker who can work from home on your computer. It's an inconvenience to stay home. But it's not really devastating to you. You're still getting paid. You still have your health benefits. But if you're an hourly worker Gig Economy Walker a contractor without health insurance. This can actually be a disaster. That's exactly right. And it was true in one thousand nine hundred nineteen as well. The associated charities of Minneapolis worked with a family listed only as the quote de Family. But they tell the story of a man who had done everything right had been working hard and then was stricken by the pandemic by the time they reported in for charitable aid. They already needed groceries. They used all of the money that they had saved. He was trying to return but was too sick. His children were getting ill and by the time they visited his home. There were absolutely without Cole. He borrowed a Pale from a woman down stairs from his apartment. The groceries were completely gone and he could not get any credit at the grocery store. At this point Mr d Az they refer to him simply broke down and cried sighing. Everything was against him. It wasn't his fault. His problems didn't originate in fact with the epidemic but in his insecure situation which was then made much worse by the bout with influenza. And I fear we're going to be seeing the exact same thing right now. I'm wondering when thinking about the present moment how this might play out here. Where people you know you talk about sort of the mortality rate of the corona virus but but that mortality rate is likely to be very different in different places as it. Not If you're wealthy you're living in a part of the country that has excellent medical care if you have access to health insurance your mortality rate is likely to look very different than somebody who is poor or living in a rural part of the country or living in a part of the country where they don't have access to healthcare. I think that's right and again. I'm not an epidemiologist nor am I but it seems that this particular crisis with Covet. Nineteen is going to matter who has access to healthcare for instance the availability of a ventilator is going to be really crucial for those in really critical condition. So that there's going to be a really inequitable landing of this virus and of this illness. Depending on one's social position economic position one's place in in the racial hierarchy of the country. All of these things will be playing out. I fear as people have inequitable access to healthcare. You mentioned the racial hierarchy a second ago and of course this was true in one thousand nine hundred as well You tell the story of how enrichment african-americans Were allowed access to a hospital where whites will being treated. But there was a catch yes. They could certainly visit this new emergency hospital at John. Marshall High School. The problem is that they were only allowed to be treated in the basement where a separate space had been opened up and was the treatment Quality different in the basement than it was the main hospital. One has only to imagine i. I have no way of knowing for certain but again we know that segregation had made two very distinct health systems and African Americans were routinely under treated in nineteen fifteen life expectancy for White. Americans was fifty five point one while for African Americans. It was only thirty. Eight point nine years so a huge differential in life expectancy prior to the pandemic so we certainly have to assume that in the midst of the pandemic the kind of care that was creating that differential was also happening. What's odd in one thousand eighteen is that there's no evidence necessarily that access to healthcare Change the death rate particularly. It certainly changed. How comfortable people were. However I understand that. Some black pastures offered sermons that used the one thousand nine hundred eighteen outbreak as a way to argue for social justice and social change. That's right there were those. Who resisted this clinging to the status quo who saw in the APP actually an opportunity to shake up the hierarchy to call out that which was unjust. My favorite example of this was the Reverend Francis Grim key. He was an important advocate for African American rights and worked at the Fifteenth Street Presbyterian Church in Washington. Dc. His Church and he really believed that God was trying to awaken Americans to the sacrilege of the Caste System. He said what audit to mean to us. This pandemic every part of the land has felt. It's deadly touch north South East and West in the army and the navy amongst civilians among all classes and conditions rich and poor high and low white and black and he concluded God has been trying in a very pronouncedly conspicuously and vigorous way to beat a little sense into the white man's head has been trying to show him the folly of the empty conceit of his vaunted race superiority by dealing with him just as he dealt with the people of Darker Hue he was convinced that the epidemic scourge was actually God's work and he was trying in a sense he said it to teach the white man the quote folly of his stupid color prejudice and quote one of the things. That strikes me as you're describing. These various responses is how little people actually changed from what they believed or thought before the outbreak began. And what I mean by that is if you're a black pastor and you're advocating against white supremacy. The outbreak becomes a mechanism for you to argue against white supremacy. If you are a fairly high up in the class hierarchy and you look down on poor people. The outbreak becomes a vehicle for you to express your class prejudice. If you're interested in prosecuting a war than the virus becomes away for you to say you know fighting the viruses away to win the war and I'm seeing actually some curious parallels with the present moment as well which is as as soon as the corona virus outbreak began you saw people from different parts of the political spectrum different interest groups all sort of essentially using the outbreak to basically say look the point of view that. I had before this actually happened. All does does confirm everything that I believe to be true. I'm afraid that's what I'm seeing as well whether it's xenophobia that we saw expressed against people who appeared to be of Asian descent or this willingness to say that Ashley we have everything in hand because our government knows what it's doing these kinds of tendencies to simply rely on what we already believe is not actually going to help us effectively manage. What is not just a national crisis but an international crisis for Americans many of whom I fear think of US somehow exceptional. This is a moment to step away from that kind of belief and to recognize ourselves as citizens in fact of a world that is wrestling with this pandemic and my hope is that maybe this time around. We can be a bit more sensitive a bit more culturally aware and perhaps embrace that sort of world citizenship. Because that's the route I think to handling this scourge in the most effective way You're speaking to me from the campus of university which is in Tacoma Washington and as we record this interview The state of Washington has been especially hard hit by the corona virus outbreak. What have you seen yourself these last few days Nancy? And what parallels are you seeing where the one thousand nine hundred outbreak. Well as you mentioned a little bit ago one thing we've seen right away as the differential and who's able to stay home? Who can do this remote work? And who is being forced to continue to go to their jobs so at my University of course faculty were encouraged to teach remotely. We will be encouraging our young people to stay home after spring break for an undetermined length of time. So those of us with privilege have been able to do social distancing somewhat easily and and I will continue to be paid and they will continue to learn at the very same moment as I arrived on campus this morning. Of course custodial staff are here. Those who work in our lunchroom are here. So those who are working blue collar jobs. Let's say have less opportunity to practice social distancing because they may be required by their employers to go to work or alternatively many workers are going to be Simply forced not to go to work in which case the uber driver and the waiter are going to be losing the money on which they rely day by day by day so those of us with salaries those of us who can work remotely. We're going to be much safer in a sense and we're also going to continue to make a living. While those who are more precarious financial contacts and situations will be in fact facing the greatest danger? More exposure to the virus or alternatively not exposure but simply the loss of of their living Nancy Presto is a historian at the University of puget sound. She's the author of American pandemic. The Lost Worlds of the nineteen eighteen influenza epidemic. Nancy thank you for joining me today. On head and break. It's been an honor and a pleasure. Thank you so much. This week show was produced by Raina Cohen. It was edited by Tara. Boil and Jenny Schmidt. Our team includes part Shah. Laura Chorale Thomas Lou and Cheektowaga special thanks to Eileen show Nina for production support. James Willits for engineering health and to catch shook necked for her voice acting work. Our UNSUNG Hero. This week is Derek Adams. Derek and other custodial staff at NPR. Make it possible for us to do our jobs. Derek is helpful and solicitors and someone who takes genuine pride in his work in recent weeks as NPR's had to cope with the corona virus outbreak. Derek and others have sanitized surfaces and ensure the buildings equipped with soap disinfectant and hand sanitizer. He's the very definition of an unsung hero. Thank you Derek. For more hidden brain you can find us on facebook and twitter. If you liked today show please remember to share it with one friend one last thing. This is a time of great upheaval. We want to hear the surprising. Unexpected and profound ways. Your life has changed since the corona virus outbreak began. What have you noticed about your friends and family about yourself? The reveal something about human nature. If you have a personal story you would be willing to share with the hidden brain audience. Please find very quiet room or a coat closet and record a voice memo on your phone email it to us at hidden brain at NPR dot org using the subject line human nature be sure to include a phone number again. Find a quiet room and record personal experience and send it to us at hidden brain at NPR DOT org. I'm Sean Covey Danton and this is NPR. The Corona virus pandemic is changing everything. Really fast. So we have created a podcast where you can hear conversations and stories from NPR journalists who are covering the pandemic the public health fight against it. And how the world is coping. I'm your host. Kelly mcevers listen and subscribe to corona virus daily from NPR.

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Will We Remember 2020 A Century From Now? | 9

American Innovations

25:31 min | 1 year ago

Will We Remember 2020 A Century From Now? | 9

"From wondering I'm Steven Johnson and this is fighting corona virus. The one thousand nine hundred thousand flu pandemic killed an estimated fifty million people worldwide including six hundred seventy five thousand in the United States. That's more deaths than the casualties. Suffered on the battlefields of world. War want which was well underway when the virus hit but while there are countless World War. One memorials throughout our country. There are very few that remember the nineteen eighteen pandemic. It turns out though that there's a lot to learn from revisiting. The Spanish flu. Today's guest is an expert on the ways. Cities during that period implemented their versions social distancing. And how those strategies ultimately impacted their recovery. She's got an invaluable perspective for our current moment. History that can tell us something about our future. Ansi Bristow is professor of history at the University of puget sound and the author of the Book American pandemic the loss worlds of the nineteen eighteen influenza epidemic. If you're looking for a bit of escapism. Try getting lost. In the RICHLAND's family drama. The story starts with Eleanor and Michael. Richland having just lost their parents in a plane crash as they reckon with this tragedy. Something about their father's legacy just isn't adding up the siblings come face to face with two choices. Protect the family empire or risk. Losing everything. To find the truth you can subscribe to blood ties on Apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever? You're listening now. A PROFESSOR NANCY BRISTOW. Thank you so much for joining us on. Fighting virus. Oh It's a pleasure to be here thank you. I want to begin actually with a speech that you gave at the National World War. One Museum just a little less than a year ago. You're talking about what happened during nineteen eighteen during the Spanish flu outbreak in the United States. And I just WanNa play this quote of course influenza worsened in very quickly they had to reimpose these restrictions and this time they were a little bit. Tighter dances parties weddings funerals business. Hours were shortened. All known cases of influenza were required to be quarantined and citizens strained under these restrictions for a full month. Hard to picture doing that today. Right school simply closed for an entire month. So there you go as you said. It's hard to picture that today. Right and here we are. We're doing it as an historian. Who spent so much time thinking about this extraordinary period in our past. How has it been for you personally? Living through it. I have to say his extraordinarily humbling especially as an historian. I just never understood. I think what it would be like to not know what would happen. It's been really. That's been the most striking thing for me. Is the the absolute absence of any sense of what tomorrow will hold what next week will hold I joked about? Can you imagine a month of school closed? I don't know my school be opened in the fall and so it's been really quite powerful literally as an historian and as a human being to recognize at a whole new human level What people in the past went through the just the whole prospect of making plans for things that might happen in two months or three months which you would just do without hesitation before and now you're like what what will be allowed in two months. I have no way of knowing. It could be remarkably normal or depending on the activity or it could be completely impossible. But there's this built in ambiguity to every facet of life that's extraordinary every facet of life. That's exactly right. Will I be able to hug my mother in a month? Will I be able to hug my students? Will I be able to teach in the classroom? What we're going to the grocery store be like and I just. I don't think I ever really understood. Just how complete the experience of okay endemic is living through. One has certainly taught me many things. I didn't understand before. So let's go back and paint a picture in a sense of life in one thousand nine hundred eighteen. I'm particularly interested in in a sense tale of two cities that you've written about as an example of two different responses to the outbreak and that's Philadelphia and Seattle start with Philly late summer of nineteen eighteen. What's going on there? And what was the kind of internal debate that really shaped their response to the outbreak? Right so you have to realize that this pandemic explodes somewhat veraciously in three different locations. So Boston is the first site in the United States. And that's late August so by late September. Philadelphia's had almost a month to watch the scale that this can take right. Boston is is literally under siege. The Nation is also what war so Philadelphia wanting to be the patriotic city that it is decides that it's GonNa go ahead and hold its Fourth Liberty Loan parade right so they funded the first World War by way of government bonds. That if you were patriotic citizen you were in sunset compelled to buy and these would usually kickoff with big public events so Philadelphia Decides Okay Boston's under siege but were Philadelphia so on the twenty eighth of September. They host a massive kickoff event. Something like two hundred thousand more than two hundred thousand people gathered along. What was it broad street in Philadelphia? Something like that. That sounds right. Yeah and then three days later. Six hundred thirty five new influenza cases in the city and it worsened dramatically sort of rising exponentially from there now. The city moves really quickly at this point to protect itself. But it's just too late right. The city is completely overwhelmed. So imagine healthcare resources already strained by the war completely overwhelmed you have everything from morgues overflowing shortage of coffins. And ultimately they have to resort to mass graves. And what's tragic is that this isn't only Philadelphia. We always drop them out because they are in some ways the perfect storm. They're one of the cities that is early hit so that they didn't have quite as much time to recognize what was coming and for them that. Liberty Loan parade was clearly so deadly but cities across the country. Went ahead with those liberty. Loan parades and in some places they go ahead and hold a couple of weeks of events around the liberty loan kickoff so even as we trot out Philadelphia and talk about the failures that they made they. Were not atypical in fact. That was the kind of pressure that the war was exerting alongside the pandemic really important factor of what they were going through in one thousand nine hundred nine. It was partially the Liberty Loans Program. Right that the Health Commissioner Philly was a political appointee and they just had a quota of money that they had to raise. And so there's this pressure on the one hand to keep things open you know similar to the economic pressures of today and then there's concern about health and in the end they just. They just made the wrong call. Exactly right Eh again. It really depends for each city. What kind of public health program they have in place? What's the relationship between the Public Health Commissioner? And the mayor. What's the relationship between the city's public health and the state's public health and the county's public health? There was so much variation city to city and state to state in one thousand nine hundred eighteen and way. Doesn't that sound a little weird echo something so now? Let's shift across the country to Seattle to a city. That had a very different response. Tell us about that. Well in Seattle is lucky right. Seattle is on the West Coast and it takes several weeks for the pandemic to really make. Its move all the way across the country so the story breaks in Seattle on October fourth. That there is in fact illness at naval training station at the UAW campus. Which for those who haven't been to Seattle really is situated just a mile or two north of the center of downtown and there are two deaths that day the next day. The mayor actually announces publicly. That there are cases in the city imposes the first sort of preliminary restrictions of prohibiting dances wanting enhanced ventilation in theaters or on streetcars. They're going to enforce their anti spitting laws which are already in place. Just WanNa pause there because I thought it was a big part of both actually really hounded as well because of chewing tobacco. People were just spitting all the time time during which is really important basic hygiene education taking place right in a way that maybe we're much more familiar with things in one thousand nine hundred. Eighteen the idea that you shouldn't spit in public or that you shouldn't share a common drinking cup. Which again is something that was outlawed during the pandemic in many communities? I'm this was news in nineteen eighteen in a way that I think perhaps today people are realizing how deadly they're sneezes are October four. Th The story breaks October fifth. The mayor begins to announce some preliminary prohibition the very next day. King County will ban. Some things and the city will fall in line so on October six. The city closes schools. Churches libraries theaters puts in place rules that will restrict crowding and businesses across the city. This doesn't happen without criticism. Of course right church leaders want to be holding church on Sunday. Theater owners are worried about their businesses. The Superintendent of schools in fact is quite opposed to the closure of the schools but the mayor figures that if he moves quickly the pandemic will move more quickly through his community. And they'll be able to return to normal very fast. He was dreaming Thinking that it might only take about five days. Okay so he made the right move even if he was slightly misguided in his reasoning. The reality is that by mid October. The city has thirty five hundred cases so it is growing but not nearly at the pace that we saw in Philadelphia where it's so fast by October seventeenth. Because the cases are continuing to rise they go with stricter enforcement of those restrictions already in place. So now if you get caught spitting in public you might get find. You might get a couple of days in jail and they might publish your name in the newspaper. Same thing goes for hosting a party so now we're about three and a half weeks in. They add wearing masks in public. And so you have to wear them on streetcars in stores and they keep with these restrictions until November twelfth. So that's a pretty hefty set of restrictions put on early enforced with some rigor and when they face a new wave in early December. The again put in some restrictions but this time only a quarantine and the city fairs much much better than Philadelphia. You know you mentioned already that there is opposition to these interventions. But one thing that's been interesting about our recent experience is at that. Opposition has organized itself along political lines whether similar political kind of valances to the opposition in one thousand nine hundred not in quite the same ways because the country again because it was at war. I think that really ensures a kind of toning down of partisanship it simply Didn't sell well to be opposed to the war and the flu pandemic was really woven in with that war effort so the idea that you would adhere to the public health restrictions was sold to the public as patriotism connected to the war literally and there's a public health poster that says the Grip Kaiser Wilhelm's greatest ally right. So there's really this conflation of the two efforts so to wear a mask was to be a part of the war effort there are actually conversations in the newspaper. The talk about not wearing a mask paints you as a slacker Which again is a reference to the war? The war effort itself the other thing. I think that's going on in in one. Thousand Nine hundred nine though is that there really is opposition. But it doesn't Organiz so much along political lines in general. It's about with schools. The question is whether or not having children schools actually a safer place for them in a place where they can become a conduit for public health information with businesses. It's quite similar calls to you know. Save them economically that resonates very familiarly but the other thing. There is in fact libertarian notion in nineteen eighteen as well the does have the same kind of conservative tone to it. Which is I? Don't want the government intervening in my life. That's slower to take hold again. I think because during the war which ends on November eleventh. That kind of language was really problematic. But when you get the next wave I think we see more of that kind of rhetoric. Did you know that two out of three guys will experience? Some form of male pattern baldness by the time. They're thirty five. That's not meant to make you panic. Knowledge is power and the best way to prevent hair. Loss is to do something about it while you still have hair left. 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Maybe there's an old monopoly nothing Well don't worry. Kidding around toys has got you covered as a family. Run Toy store for over thirty years then exactly how to keep you and your family occupied at a time like this. They offer a wide selection of unique toys. Games and activities for all ages need a recommendation owner Christina and her staff of two daughters will gladly help you during these unique and family centric times for a quarantine discount with free shipping to all. Us customers head over to kidding around toys dot com slash discount slash wondering. Have a little fun while you're at home with family. One of the things that happened in nineteen eighteen is that there multiple waves of the flu coming through society. And here we are in a situation where parts of the country are starting to think about reopening or actually are reopening. Is there something? We can learn from the experience in nineteen eighteen of those multiple waves and cities that they're prostitutes coming out of the restrictions in the lockdown. Oh I think so one thing. That's really clear as those cities that practiced social distancing or what we're called non pharmaceutical interventions. Npr is the kind of thing that we're trying to do today though cities that adopted those early a maintain them the longest and use some strictness in their enforcement simply fared better in terms of death rates. And we can see that very vividly. There's good research done by people at the CDC and the University of Michigan that have looked at many many cities across the United States to map. This and one thing you see is there's often resistance when a second wave hits a city that there's more resistance to the public health measures but those cities that go ahead and have restrictions the second time in those communities where the public is more compliant seemed to have had lower death rates and intern. There's evidence that that then led to faster economic resurgence in those communities as well everything. Our nature is to be like well. This is a small outbreak. Let's start with small measures when in fact it has to be the exact opposite of that. And that's what's hard to watch right now. Is that when I look back at one thousand nine hundred and I have a whole new sympathy for them. Because of the uncertainty. They didn't know what was going to happen to them today. We have such good data about what happened to them and that we really should have been able to move more readily more quickly with more assuredness from the very beginning in turn. The flow of information is so strong that we had information coming from other parts of the world. So it's really disappointing to me that we moved so slowly in the United States in the and the figures are bearing out the costs of that to me. One of the lessons I think is that. There's a strong correlation in terms of the outcome. So far if you look at different nations one the key predictors of success is an earlier kind of culturally traumatic experience with SARS or with murders and something like that or like a lot of these Asian countries that had some serious scares and they had to learn both in terms of the public health establishment but in terms of the general population. That these things will really mess you up as a society if you let them go unchecked the one thing. I'm hoping is that. Maybe this is our up call and we won't make this mistake again and it's something that in a sense you have to go through as a society to really believe that the threat is real. Perhaps that's a really good insight. I think the thing that gives me pause in in being so optimistic is that we actually did have nineteen. We have all of this data we know this and yet the United States chose not to remember that and I think it smacks so completely of an ongoing problem. I think in the United States. Which is this unwillingness to really look at our own history with care. We have such a desire to see ourselves as an exceptional nation. Always on the rise always progressing never having setbacks always living up to our value system and so much of that when we look at our past isn't true so I worry that we will in the aftermath of this is the United States did in the aftermath of nineteen eighteen. Find some way to rewrite the That will pose it as some American triumph again. That's literally what happened in nineteen eighteen. And you could already hear those voices today In particular coming out of the White House well. This gets to one of the questions that I'm most interested in your thoughts on because it's something I've been thinking about a lot. Which is the the strange absence of cultural legacy of the Great Influenza in American history? Right it's his thing that comes kills. You know milling tens of millions of people. Maybe fifty million people are more all around the world and yet when we think about that period you think about the twenties coming out of that. It's all Jazz Asian Gatsby and there's not a sense of this. Incredible collective trauma has just descended on the world. Why did it leave such a limited kind of footprint in the imagination? It such a good question and I think historians continue to ponder this. I have my own sense of it. Is that a couple of things. Come into play one is that the pandemic doesn't actually change American culture in any meaningful way. In other words people keep asking me well. What was different afterwards. And it's very hard to find something that's different afterward it really reinforces the status quo in a lot of ways. So there's no cultural mark. Has People saying we'll before member before the pandemic when we used to do. Certainly that happens at the level of the individual where families are shattered or traumatized. But the level of the public simply. Not There I think even more importantly perhaps is that it is very quickly conflicted with the war in the American imagination and the war is a really good story for the United States right. We go to Europe. We win this thing. We're not there very long. Very few Americans die comparison to the what happened to the European nations and some of the colonial troops so for US World War. One is the story of triumph so we can take that flu pandemic make part of the war story. We can continue to tell that story of American exceptionalism and I think that's what happens and you can watch it happen very quickly in the culture is even News outlets like the New York Times that had covered the story so carefully and had really detailed losses and the trauma very quickly shift to a different kind of story about how quickly we're recovering. Look how well things are going. And that's done again and again over and over all over the country. It'll be interesting to see if we can figure out a way to do that with this crisis. It's hard to imagine. I want to say one thing about that that I think there is one reason for optimism about our capacity to remember at least the private trauma that I think was so subdued and and sort of almost prohibited from having a public voice in one thousand. Eighteen aftermath is that today we have archivists librarians all over the country. An oral historians already doing the work of collecting this history. It's really an exciting thing that universities in particular stepping up but as our private citizens and local public history organizations and I think that's a good sign There are at least a lot of Americans who don't want to forget what happened to them. One last question for you. This is a show that spends a lot of time thinking about the innovations that are developing right now to try and combat this crisis where they're important breakthroughs in terms of the public health systems. It came out of the nineteen eighteen crisis whether lessons learned in terms of the science the health of the country. Certainly people learn more about basic public hygiene. And that's a really important thing. The abolition of the public drinking cups should not be pooh-poohed. That was a really important major step in terms of public. How that was in a restaurant you would kind of share cups like how did that work in a schoolroom in a newsroom? On at a train station you just have a big barrel of water and everybody would use the Same Cup. And that's not done any more after nineteen eighteen and it sounds small and it is in a sense because it doesn't lead in turn to any systemic changes there no institutionalized changes. We don't build a larger public health service. We do not become better prepared for emergencies. None of those things happen. It does. Prompt continued research into what causes the flu. But in one thousand nine hundred they didn't have the technology to see a virus yet. So that's simply took the the evolution of technology. The one really important thing I think that does come from. It is a rise in the status of nursing which was primarily a female profession at the time and I think that the flu pandemic plus the war really Signals their arrival as important public servants. Well Nancy Bristow thank you so much for joining. We learned a lot such important historical perspective. And please stay safe out there in the Pacific. Northwest you as well and thank you for the good work. You do Thanks for listening to fighting Colonel Virus from American innovations. If you want to help share our series with others these tell your friends to subscribe and give us a five star review. We're available on Apple podcasts. Spotify in every major listening APP or you can listen at Frey on wondering plus also we wanna hear from you. What topics do you want us to talk about? You have stories you want to share from your experience you can email questions or even better emails voice memo with your question or your story at fighting. Corona at wondering Dot Com. That's fighting corona at wonder DOT com. The series is hosted and produced by me Steven Johnson for more information on my books including my newest one enemy of all mankind which is out just this month. You can visit my website at Steven. Berlin Johnson Dot Com shows also produced by Natalie Shisha and Michelle Lance town designed by Jake Gorski executive producers or Jenny Lower Beckmann Marshal Louis and Hernan Lopez for wonder hey wondering listeners. I'm Nikki Boyer and I'm the host of wondering new. Show the daily smile. I used to wake up every day at seven. Am gravity and a light breakfast and get myself ready then quickly off for the day but eventually I decided to slow down to enjoy all the great things in the world. And it's really brightened my day. So I teamed up with one to create the daily smile a short form. Podcast that brings you feel good stories every day like the adorable six year old boy who captured hearts across the globe may rating Shirley temples or the cute couple who met and fell in love during a global quarantine. Make the daily smile part of your day by subscribing on Apple podcasts. Spotify stitcher or wherever? You're listening right now to listen Ag Free Join. One plus at one plus dot com slash smile.

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Episode 518 Kiara Hancock of K. Hancock Events and HBOs Full Bloom Season 2

Slow Flowers with Debra Prinzing

49:40 min | Last month

Episode 518 Kiara Hancock of K. Hancock Events and HBOs Full Bloom Season 2

"Welcome back to the slow flowers. Podcast with deborah printing episode. Five hundred eighteen. This is a weekly show about slow flowers and the people who grow and to sign with them. It's all about making a conscious choice. And i invite you to join the conversation and the creative community as we discuss the vital topics of saving our domestic flower farms and supporting a floral industry. That relies on a safe seasonal and local supply of flowers and foliage. This show is brought to you by slow. Flowers dot com the free online directory to more than eight hundred eighty florist shops and studios. Who designed with local seasonal and sustainable. Flowers tend to the farms that grow those blooms. It's the conscious choice for buying and sending flowers and special. Thanks for lead sponsor for twenty twenty one farm farmgirl flowers farm flowers delivers iconic burlap breath bouquets and lush abundant arrangements to customers across the us supporting more than twenty us flower farms by purchasing more than nine million dollars of us grown fresh and seasonal flowers foliage annually. Discover more at farm bureau flowers dot com our first podcast sponsor. Thanks goes to read. Twig farms based in johnstown ohio. Red twig farms is a family. Owned farm specializing in peonies. Daffodils tulips and branches a popular peony bouquet by mail program and they're spread the hope campaign where customers purchased ten tulip stems for essential workers and others in their community. Learn more at red tweak farms dot com in celebration of our recent slow flowers podcasts eighth anniversary we launched our new livestream video format calling it. The slow flowers show with the goal of sharing the faces and voices of our members as well as tours of their farms their shops and their studios and most of all their flowers. Today you're in for a real treat as we meet kiara hancock of k. Hancock events who join me last week to record this conversation kiara is based in tacoma's university place neighborhood and she a floral educator and wedding and event florist. If like me you have just binged on the floral series of the summer. hbo's full bloom. You already know kiara who was one of ten budding floral artists who are put to the test. Each episode in both individual and team challenges floral experts simon. Lisette elizabeth cronin and maurice harris serve as hosts and judges determining who gets cut and who remains in the running for the one hundred thousand dollar grand prize. Hbo max released the series on june tenth. I reached to kiara and ask her to share her story her experience as a reality. Tv competitor and to design for us on camera. This interview originally appeared on youtube and facebook live last week and you can see the replay video if you missed it. In today's show notes for episode five eighteen at deborah printing dot com. Before we jump in. I want to share a bit more about kiara. She writes this on her website. Iowa life mother to two awesome girls a wedding designer floral designer and a day of coordinator. I believe that modern romantic designs can coexist in harmony. I aim to bring weddings to life. In a way that resonates joy keyarris forte is incorporating passionate and confident designs that seamlessly integrate each couples personalities both as individuals and jointly. Kiara is a pro at the logistics portion of planning. Thanks to her background. As an administrative professional at some of the northwest most successful companies her passion for events stems from not only wanting to make sure that each of her clients wedding day run smoothly and that she delivers something beautiful to the eye but also ensuring the couple feels heard understood and seen kiara is a huge advocate of authenticity and she encourages supports and guides her clients to be true to who they are fight for the things they want dream big and trust their gut she adds. I will never get tired of seeing my designs become part of the tapestry of the wedding day. It does my heart serious good. Let's jump right in and the kiara. Hi everybody. I am so thrilled to welcome you to the slow flowers show which were streaming live on youtube and facebook. And i'm in studio today. Virtually with kierra. Hancock hichiara story. I am great. Thanks for saying that you'll you'll tell your story to our community. I'm so excited so for having me of course so. You are the owner of k. Hancock events based in the tacoma area that actually university places. Actually a town in tacoma right or yeah. I think yes. It's a neighborhood. Yeah just to put you on the map. Whereabout i live about twelve miles from you but it feels like a long distance when you get on the freeway. But i've been watching you on social media and watching your career just fascinated with the way you tell your story and your aesthetic and little. Did i know all last year while you were talking about your flowers. You're secretly recording an episode of or a whole season. That is of the second season of full bloom so give us a snapshot of k. Hancock and how did that. All come together totally so i started this business about five years. No little over five years now. In honestly i came into flowers completely by accident. I think that happens with a lot of people. I was a wedding planner and coordinator as flowers just came into my life randomly. I'd like to think that it was planned to be this way. But i've been enjoying it ever since in really growing into who i am and my style and what i wanna do. I think a lot of the times we learn early on. Take on somebody else's style and we try to emulate those things because that's a great way to learn so just been spending the last couple of years Finding out who. I am and what i like about flowers and that led into being on reality television which is a very weird thing to say out loud anything ever thought i would say out loud so sometimes people talk about it right. I like feel weird. Saying i was on tv so funny because we we. I don't even like the word reality. I just thought it was a floor. Floral competition show and and that king by accident somebody found on instagram and one of the casting losers and he sent me a message and i like on this very long journey being cast on the shell so middle whirlwind for sure. That's a total affirmation for like being true to your authentic aesthetic and your your your story on social media because you never know who's gonna find you absolutely you gotta kind of statehood yourself. I find in this business in like billy work on finding your voice. I know a lot of times. We admire people we want to be like them and copy their senate but i think everybody has a unique voice in what happened to that. Oh my gosh that thankful so in your course of of this five years of k. Hancock events you primarily. I guess before. Cova d'you primarily. Were very busy with wedding and clients as a first coordinator and then what the flowers. Kinda lured un. And you're like. Oh i'll add floral design services to wedding ordination or did you just switch it up and stop coordinating. Yeah no. I do both so make full service. I will plan your wedding designed at what it looks like right from the moment you like walk in the moment. He was coordinate. Your entire day to make sure that you can really be absorbed in it. I i married. You're married and i tell people all the time. Your wedding day really goes like this. Slap yup your innocence really important to be involved in it But really like half things around her beautiful that you love as well so they do a little bit of everything. And i love that because i get to know my clients from beginning to end and everywhere in between. Wow and so what happened with last year and full bloom did had cove it already Kind of tossed your world upside down in terms of your all. Your weddings. Probably got postponed right. Majority of my wedding's got postponed. A good chunk of them just moved to being smaller. More intimate affairs in thing. And i really evolved my business in a way where i started focusing on smaller ceremonies in offering packages for those of where i will come and set up like ann arbor for you and like a few table arrangements and give you a bouquet but then like we. I'm lucky that i was able to evolve in that way. Full bloom was in the works. Probably right at the beginning of coa and it just took a long to get cast and move forward with that because we were independent it. I wept at the beginning of the casting process. And then they stopped at a certain Sure what was going to happen. And then like a few months later. It picked up again in like in full speed. That went twice as fast. I feel like i'm interviewing again. And then like a month later. I was landing in. La in line was the filming was in october of last year. It wasn't march of this year. What i know. Oh my gosh. I feel like times like such a weird thing to think about that to back. It was march of this year when we started so ming and it was like this whole process to get on tv background checks and all that kind of stuff may go deep and it takes a long time so once the background checks for like completely clear that you had a feeling that you were going once. They completely clear. I had seven days to arrange my life to be able to leave. Oh my gosh era and you'll have young. Children must have been crazy and young children. And i still honestly work so like i had to arrange like so many things in seven days. But you know sometimes where there's a will there's a way and thank goodness. You're like a competent woman Who is used to taking charge because admitted like very few guys could've figured that child childcare in the meals and the clients chocolate was like childcare and making sure my husband knew how to do the girls hair so they weren't walking around looking crazy things in which we you don't think when you're doing the maritime still i just i just admire you so much for saying yes to something that was. I mean a little bit a little bit out of your comfort zone. I think you've probably done some. Tv in the past but just van did it is like i mean that's one of the ways. I learned floral shoes. You have to say things even if you're not completely sure how to do them if you take the time to figure out everything in life whether it's getting married and having kids and everything aligned perfectly you'll never gonna get nothing's ever going to be perfect so allow the times early in my business. I was saying yes. Even though i didn't know i was like i will figure it out. Yeah yeah well you are. You are very instantly recognisable on the first episode of full blown. Because they had if i remember right. They have the contestants or the designers each show up with a like a signature arrangement but it wasn't identified. Who who had done which one and years was selected as the winner. That was was that how i recall. We like we did the on site they had all these separate tents. We didn't even know who did what ourselves so. We were put in these small at separate tim by ten pop up text kind of right next week. What kind of hidden from each other. Like enron Next to people of like we couldn't see anything that was going on and so they kind of left to our own devices to design something. That was your signature. Like what i pay now with arrangements. I only knew what mine was. I didn't know who had done. What at all i is. That was exciting but it was also like terrified. Wait a minute. I well describe it. You had an interesting use your medium or your foundation. We're concrete blocks. I use sender cinderblocks. Yeah they were like cinderblocks just for my home you get from home depot. We use them in floral design. Whole things down sometimes but it was really represented a representative of wet. I came from like. I'm from wisconsin. You've probably all heard of it. Which is a really. I love it there but it's a really segregated place can you all about Like one of the first places that declare racism might Public health pricings. While i'm from. But i wanted to represent like the concrete jungle and like how i was ready and like all those things so that's what the sender whilst relating representatives me and. I didn't explain that a lot on. Tv's i'm so happy. You're asking about it like i didn't just pull cinderblocks for some random reason right some grunge look or something i wanted to be like. I'm ready and i'm here to play in this way pound in something beautiful of all that i loved it. And then you had the flowers. Kind of emerging through the crevices absolutely and it was hardly. I mean i had planted a totally different way but as you know. Sometimes you're the moment you don't have enough time. I want to break them with a hammer. But once i took the hammer to them that imitate forever so thin clammy and i'm just curious. How much time were you given to design that. I think we had our for that. So you were immediately. Thrust into leadership role for that giant canvas thing like the whatever size that was twenty feet by ten years that chest. What oh the chest one. Well that's right. yeah. I love that chest. One was really fun and leadership skills. So i felt comfortable being a weiner and i told you all of you the spoiler alert. If you haven't watched this lost. That like i challenge but it was such a weird feeling because out so proud. I didn't feel like a loser. I was like. It's a weird. They lose and be happy. Still i'm so glad you said that i mean i'm right in the middle of watching making the cut with keep calling your project runway but you know with with uh heidi and tim and it's the same thing i look at that and i think i can never predict who's the winner is because they're all fabulous and is this just the producers pulling the strings. I know there's a lot of it's subjective. I realized that but right. Yeah it's hard thing. And i think that's the hardest thing about being on my competition. Is that mike. Creatively is not like rooted in competition. So i'm competitive person when it comes so things like scrabble or monopoly and things like that but like when you're like putting your are on the line. It's hard to be competitive. Put you off your game. A lot of i'm and i. I just are subjective to me. Yeah exactly how hard fine. Wools subjective a such a healthy place to be in. And i feel like there's we're also you know assaulted with instagram every day. And what what we see. Our our peers are competition. Or maybe they're not even our competition. We perceive it to be. How do you stay true to your aesthetic. A not like get get derailed by all of that and in that environment. It's like a hundred times harder because light-skinned action. There's like a million things happening at one time so i felt like my anxiety in that situation was out of control. Those like this is a lot. Because then i got in my head. I just want to create. but when you're like there's a lot going on yeah well. It didn't come across that way. I think it came across as just having so much. You know one of the bubbly shining lights of that whole the whole show. I was sassy you leave when you did. And i'm just thinking maybe they'll do like a full all. And i'm game for that now that i know what it's like. I feel like i can win all the other stuff go. Yeah well so you're also comfortable on camera because you've been teaching online of. Tell me a little bit. How that's going and how people can can sign up for your online courses. Yeah absolutely so. I've done a lot of one on one classes online. So if you just email me and say that you want to do that or small class and happy to figure out what we can do. But a cornerstone of my business has been like wreath making in the holiday time. I'm doing a lot of that online special mean last year especially. Yeah so normally do it in person but this year it was just a can't so i might have done things. Companies it will ship the materials to their people. Then we'll get online and create something together her or i will do that just like a blue class in a set to cooler in the world is so different now all run camera right now So i'm super comfortable. It's just about finding your group when you're doing those they really bringing your whole self. Even if you're not in person. I always try to bring my full anti so. Do you think with kind of emerging from kobe hopefully by the holidays of twenty twenty one. You'll be able to do in person wreath classes again. i'm hopeful that we'll be able to do imprison classes. you know. there's so much in the air right now. We're in this weird there's the delta varian we don't know what that's about yet right right newly hopeful that i'll be able to do it i i love to host i love champagne and sparkling cider on treats and snacks and knew that in the create a whole by well. That totally sounds like you if you're already used to kind of setting the whole theatrical backdrop for a wedding ceremony it's just you know even for your own classes. You're doing that. So how do people get. Were you said you were shipping companies for the classes. Are people come into your house to pick things up or now actually ship them in the mail it you yes day delivery. Luckily things like you know holiday greens. They'll stay nice in a box about them you can. You can pick them up from my house at your local. But i'm also happy to ship them and ship them to new york accent everywhere. Wow wow well. Yeah i mean i think now there's going to be a hybrid model for everything going forward some online in some in person so i i have a nice because you can reach so many more people. Yeah so after you your big your big small screen fame. I just because i stock you. I saw you. Were starting a couple of new projects for twenty twenty one and so can you share with people like you know some of the various things that you're excited about for your business. Yes so i have a few. I always had like so many balls in the air. That's just how. I'm comfortable that i am led to juggle a lot of things but right now. I'm selling merchandise. And the slogan of it is decency is not difficult. And that's actually something that my husband came up with me. Were on a staycationing together and we were just chatting about the craziness of all things. Twenty twenty and Just you know. Human decency went by the wayside. It seems like recently and he said decency is not difficult and for some reason it stopped with me. I took it from iran with it So really. I'm selling merchandise in. I'm not getting. the proceeds. One hundred percent of the proceeds are going to a organization called common cause and i tried to do something that was. It shouldn't be bi partisan. It's bipartisan neutral. About making sure that everybody has the same access to be able to hear the voice like through like that no brainer to be in any party to what things to be fair so one hundred percent of the proceeds are going towards that and you can look at that on. Instagram is linked to buy in. My instagram link was there. Was there a deadline. I saw that there were some preordered going and but there's no deadline. I'll still have lies. I mean you just won't be have your size garrity. But i'll still have to sell so yeah and other things that i want to do right now. My husband and i would love to venture into something together We're just like a little scary but your spare time right. I feel like he hired like two different people. We really need to different things. So we're just hoping to work something out where we can join forces and make something beautiful he. He does the grounds at university of puget sound so and that he majored in like crop science at causing soil science. Yeah so he's not horticulture agriculture kind of orientation to mortally. So he does. He used to do the present half facility for seattle sounders now. He works at university of south so to me like when i think of that. Ics like opening a together and everything and also us being able to like Flowers outside just having this little like. Oh oh. i'm so glad you shared that. I noticed that you posted sometimes in your stories about your garden and the projects that kind of your home improvement projects during cova. You're dreaming them up and he's executing them right exactly. I know i'm so lucky. Because i think about all the things that i put him to task on and he's always up for the task because i like to dream big dreams and he's like you know like he's more like wait a minute so so he has a bit of a orient. A training and background in in crops agricultural. Where did your flower confidence come from. Do you have a background in art or did you grow up. We chronic gardeners or a little bit of both of those. Honestly i e- eh a dancer right. So i've always been a dancer. I think a lot of the times. That influences how i design. I like things to feel like ally and mike jutting out at you like how a lot of movement a also. My mom had a garden when i was growing up. She didn't really grow flowers. One of us you grow vegetables crazy. And she had a garden in the backyard and community garden spot and So funny i never was interested and of course on. I didn't want to be asked to. We'd probably thinking. But i did get out there and do it and now just a that an order and now i'm doing these things at home at night sometimes might who am. I even don't even recommend that is so cool. Wow and can you talk a little about your dancing career and where that took you. Because that's some part of your history to totally. I was honestly a tennis player for most of my life. My mom is tennis player. So that's the game. That i learned when i was young and then all the sudden when i was a teenager i was like you know what i wanna dance and i just changed. Works as much to my parents chagrin After doing all this tennis for fifty years. Now really i did like high school all dance team and junior high teen and then when i graduated i want to take things to the next level. I wants to continue in that so at the time. We still had the sonics here so we don't have them anymore. But i tried out for the sonics dance team. And i didn't make it and i was like that's fine. I can work on my craft and then can always come back next year. But in the meantime i wanted to really understand the nuances of a tryout. So try to for the seattle seahawks cheerleading team. And i was just doing it to get more tryout experience under my belt. But i made it the very first time and cheered for this hotspur eight years total straight then i took three years off and i feel like i hat led into early midlife crisis when i was thirty and i like had to prove that i could do one more time so i didn't hear that it. It seems like anybody who's in that level of professional. Cheerleading is probably got dance. Training because it allows us a lot. I didn't have any dan train. This quick this is my life. I feel like i didn't have any flower training. I didn't have any dance training. I just like jump into things in life. Figure it out over people to help me. I wanna scholarship to sinclair. Moore's work shaw. And that's really my first time that i liked touched flowers. Wow pictures of the arrangements. That i made and i might that awful like never show them to anybody. But it's also nice to gauge. How far come based on wearing started. It's like night and day. Oh my gosh. I've sat in as a member of the media at one of steve's workshops and it's a couple of days right. You're the one i said on was one of the real wedding workshops. Yeah was that. What similar to what you've done a couple now. Now i will also come and help him occasionally. I've been to a few workshops. But the one i started on was like the advance the elements of abet designed so it was a little bit of heaven thing. I mean. if you're going to start studying with someone you kind of started at the top kiara. I mean that's really me. I know great support to me and a great advocate of my business is well In borough as an uses face. Sometimes i thought my wreath making classes in his studio. So yeah i like. I'm glad to share that. Because i think that is called the spirit of what you're trying to say about. Decency is not difficult. Like we're not we we can help each other. Yeah we're not gonna take climb each other because there's enough business for everybody there really. Is they feel like the people who are for you. Let the people or amid to find you as you are for you. They're gonna find you. That's enough that's just kind of how the universe works in a weird way so we don't have to worry about like wanting every client not every clan is for us and that's okay. Yeah and you probably touched a bullet if they want running like you right right exactly. Contentious working relationship for park. I've been very excited to see every time you go to the seattle wholesale growers market you post or tag them about the flowers at. You're picking up. And i'm i'm a big advocate as you know of local flowers so i'm so glad you said that you'd be willing to design something or share design and barbas nine so that's good good good to be nervous about doing everything. Bill time a favor could show us what you and you were and you said i could pick up the flowers and bring them to you so these. There's my gosh that is done in kiara. No i told you. I like yellow tinge like you gravitate towards yellows and you put some fun other colors in here that i really love. So wow so what does that. What does that vessel up from. Homegoods which is at the the old wall perfect rent vessel and it was seven bucks at home goods and there was like soul. It seems like the kind of thing that would be beautiful on a buffet or an entry table too because it gets back pretty much. One sided right sided yet. Totally designed one-sided so we'll be showing those back to tax. I'm all about that. I don't like those three sixties right but you know. I don't even know what these i love them. We can know what. I should've sick left you the list i think a i think it's a rebekah and i'll email you thought it was too but it's dot com. Yeah it's gorgeous and it was grown by Heather from hp farms which is up kind of issues in bo- washington which is sort of up by. I don't know. I had the way up to schedule. Valley want more of these. That is charming. Yeah i'll send you a list. So all of them are from the growers market except for the large dahlia which cut from my garden. I didn't have that many but you put it in the middle of the front. Thank you start sharp lower. Yeah now you you said you were. You were work with any pellet that you were drawn to yellow what what do you. What kind of feedback are you getting about. Yellow pallets from your clients who asked for yellow pallets which is praising me. I was so such a joint full color. And i think that i always try to joy at the center of what i do and i think that's why often like when i see something yellow like i have to avoid it sometimes cause i'm so drawn to yellow is like such a joyful pleasant energy and some people want more nuchills allow the time or a of greenery so you really have to love yellow yellow cancelled so many things that people don't think about like Apparently it's like you can just do a pop of yellow if you wanted him a lot of money brown's even and i love using it in. That's like my favorite way to us is like to use it. With muddy rounds are talked. Almost like a tonal exactly. Yeah absolutely favorite. Are you finding that the wedding is still pretty much the blush and cream and apricot. Are you kind of were that you know. A lot of people are doing that in an emmy. If that's what you'd like it's what you lie but i. I just hope that people aren't being guided by pinterest which a lot of rights are right. There's so much more variety and if you're adventurous and you really trust who you hire where your flowers you should really ask them to. Maybe come up with something different free. That's exciting for me when someone lets me like run wild because You know. I've seen a lot of different things a lot of different colors and how they can play together. So if you hire someone you trust and you are married to a color palette but then go for it and you're gonna be like so shocked at how much you enjoy. Oh yeah is it hard to design away from yourself because you're making it look really good. I never actually done it. Which is funny. Well you're kind of like it's probably like teaching on camera. You have unless you have a lazy. Susan is kind of helpful. Because i look at it and see like is that even working. Yeah and it's kinda makes me think of the bridal bouquet designers who are standing in front of a mirror to see how the i do that to you i. Yeah i have to look at it in the mirror. I don't know what they learned that way. So how easy or hard is it for you to be able to source from like the growers market or local farmers. Because it's not exactly just down the street from you now. It's easy for the planet a little bit more. That definitely takes more planning than to order from somewhere else but you know so often if you plan things ahead of time. It's worth it. I don't get to go up as much as i want to. And i want to source locally more. And more i mean i think a lot of people think that like there's a gateway here. It was the same with like designing phone moving away from that for a lot of floors. I think it's not so black and white and it's like it's another thing about that decency like it's like. Oh you design reform. Get out of your louise. That's not local out of here. But i think if i if we approach it from the way that we can teach each other things. I think you're more likely to get converts in that way. Then just tell somebody that they're doing it wrong and putting them at defense but if you sit down with someone and explain to them why you you'll do it this way and why they should. Then it's more of a conversation. I think we could use a lot more about in this industry. I really appreciate that. Yeah i have one of our members said to me something like Just try to do a little bit better every time. And then you're you're you're you're just taking you're doing it is happening. Organically it's not radically disrupting your business. But you're teaching yourself and your clients exactly and not only that i feel by. Nobody's should be the gatekeeper to the floral industry. Right all in this together. And i think that a lot of times when people learn with phone it gives them access to a new thing like it's an entry way of all her life other fires entry but I take away you say that. You dismissed him but he's art because they aren't doing it. How you doing how you want them to do it. I don't know. I don't think that that's buried your closing the door to a lot of people who can have flowers. Yeah that's an interesting. I mean. I think that that's a a almost like a personal value of yours since across. Yeah i really into representation in this world industry and i think that if you like close to many doors to people though never get in so let them come in where. They're comfortable at meet them where they are. That's what we do in life of people meet people where they are and then teach right that's great. Oh i love that little flow the addition of that goal and gm. Yeah cheat where you pronounce it. Because this wasn't sure i you'll have to. you'll have to ask the your horticulture husband. I think it's gm it's making me. Think of what you said about the the gesture of dance and movement and that how to each other with you've got you've got the mouse. Boulder flowers the heavier flowers. I guess are maybe. That's not the right word. Focal flowers yeah closer to the base. And you're it's opening up as you stretch out his gesturing years creating more air and more interest for people to look with it. I love it. That's great yeah. Gosh this because national someone else picks flowers for you because you sound time gravitate towards the same thing and so doing this. Just been a really fun exercise. I was a little nervous. I was like. Oh my god. What if she hates all of this. I love yaro. And i love you flowers but this was like this. This rebecca badly like discovery. Builder navy Somebody just and also the stems were not straight. They were all kind of crooked and kind of more natural and so that's why they look like they have personalities that every flowers personality the dollars from your house like dahlia's our flower that scare me. I'm sure somebody has told that to you before. Golly scare me just because they love. They don't seem to really like value life after being cut. Funny so yeah. I like the day before. Because i'm terrified of them. Yeah i think those are ones you would have. You would really benefit from growing yourself ask you. Would you would know how fresh it was exactly they. I mean they love to shattered at any moment. Now that's a good way of putting it. I don't think that they ship well. And i i know people do ship them but they always look a little bit now. A bruise they follow. Yeah i like. I'm getting golly i'd like to pick them up in a in a buck games like literally the day before a not a moment sooner i would do it well. I i don't want to interrupt you if you keep going but i have a few more questions about what do you what do you. What do you have coming up. Do you have any more like your summer. Is not over with weddings. Go over. I took to do this a lot because i have small kids who are out of school during the summer. I like a month long break in the middle of the summer. Just i could be at home and be more present and you know. Go to the fun things that go to the zoo at a moment's notice and all those things but I- reading back up here in a couple of weeks in starting my wedding's back up i have a big wedding fairmont olympic. You're in seattle. And then. I'm gonna go venues three day multicultural wedding over labor day weekend. That's going to be huge in bay just brought on some. This is really late in the game for me by wants more clients for the end of this year but i think that people are just like pushing up and and wanting to avoid any possible problems that they might have next year. So you're saying that people who in the past you generally had like a twelve months notice or lead time now. It's it's tightened. It's a condense words toward like people calling you now for end of the year. Yeah people halloween. After the end of the year and i think they're just adjusting and making plans where they thought maybe they need help with hours before. Maybe they tried to like never mind. Yeah russell room in my schedule. But i always last year really for making it gets crazy towards the end of the year. Yeah well so kiara added or you announce that after. I think when when full bram lomas going on that you are starting a newsletter and it was sort of cute the way you did it like okay. I'm finally doing it. People have been asking me so so anyone who's watching this thick and just go to your website and sign up for your newsletter. Go to my website instagram. All my everything that. I do are always in that on instagram. They're super easy. And i'm just like figuring out how wanna you'll be like the first to know a lot of what i do. You find the right. Get i address classes or new announcements that. I making it as they come in. It's just like the place to be illinois no and also during like you know small tips and tricks along the way for your wedding planning process so it's just free information who doesn't live that i'm not gonna bug you know. I have a million emails in my inbox too. So i'm not going to send you an email every day like some people do. I do not love that myself. I know you the a problem. You need to know something out standard for they're not gonna bombarded right and if people follow you on instagram. They're gonna see stuff on your feet. All share a lot on instagram. I think that's like my main source of marketing. Right now and my main source of getting to know people and have people get to know who i have what i stand for and i really delving more until i might business having purpose this year. So it's gonna be really exciting. It has cold things coming down the pipeline that will show people. You know the purpose of my business in my where i want. Yeah i love that. That's so great. Thank you so much for sharing with today. So i i know we did it in person but this worked out really. We'll do it in person sometime later this year. Workout round my attention. Before i was able to navigate that and still beer. So everything's hot. I love it. And i'm so glad that you're going to be parcel flowers now and you are absolutely right. It's not it's not all or nothing kind of a ruler entities Right but if you have a client who would benefit from having beautiful seasonal flowers. You're going to tell the client. Okay i can get these from you. 'cause i ever source absolutely there's definitely benefits to have seasonal flowers including my knowing about the freshness right. That's a huge. Yeah and there's a lot of people jumping out to and just wanna make sure that we don't exclude people. We don't get he. I mean we can suggest like with lots of things like we can gently guy kit so i gently guide every day but we really guide people to like where they want to be e. It's just better for everybody instead of like you know like decide. Tillage die on right exactly. No i appreciate that anything else. You want to add before we wrap up. And i'm going to try to get some as we discussed. Try to get some clips from the show to share when this goes live on. It'll go live on wednesday. August fourth wanna share with people that i'm in this business because it brings me a lot of joy. I sent her my life in my business around joy. That's not happiness but like seeking those fun moments in life like that has been a theme throughout my entire life that now continues through my business so always looking to partner with new people. If you have an idea and really approachable. I think yes i will. I will say you are dusty. Md when you risk we chat with your ideas. I'm willing to help. I ended when. I hear. That's just who i am and That's who i wanna be. I wanna be able to like Spread what. I do teach people and have people will be introduced to flowers in a new way even if they've never done them before Thank you. I so happy to have you and i know this is going to inspire a lot of people and that arrangement is just stunning. So i'm sure if we're lucky if we're lucky you'll take it posted on your good. I love it. And i love your message of joy. And you're right. Joy is a different kind of huzzah different. It's a it's a deeper. It's deeper content that we're not always happy. We'll never always be happy but we can still find joy even when we're yeah. Well i'm happy to be with you. This was great. Thank you so much. And we'll put all of Kiara social contacts and how you can find him her art show. No yeah yeah great. Have a great rest of the weekend you back well. That was awesome. If you haven't fallen in love with kiara favorite color palette yellow in all shades. I'll be surprised. We also recently welcomed kiara hancock as a new member of the slow flower society. She's wonderful and we admire all that she's doing to nurture inclusion and representation through her decency is not difficult campaign to support our common cost dot com and you can find details about that in today's show notes our next sponsor thank you to the association of specialty cut flower growers formed in nineteen eighty eight eighty s. Cf g was created to educate unite and support commercial. Cut flower growers. Its mission is to help. Growers produce high-quality fluoro- material and to foster and promote the local availability of that product. You can learn more at a s. cfp dot org. I know it's already august. And that our celebration of the twenty twenty one. American flowers squeak campaign has passed for this year. The dates were june. Twenty eighth through july fourth. But you'll want to check out our new article. That appears in the august issue of growing for market magazine. Thanks to editor and publisher andrew medford who asked me to recap some of the amazing activities that are members produced during american flowers week. I'll share the link to the story in today's show notes for you to read more and see some great photos last month. We also jumped in and celebrated the twenty twenty one canadian flowers. Week campaign july. Fifteenth twenty-second thanks to the support of creator. Natasha coach of the toronto flower market. Who invited becky fees. Be of prego flowers and me to do an takeover. During the entire week we virtually traveled across canada meeting floors and flower farmers in seven provinces for instagram live conversations about their floral enterprises. Check out the link to watch those interviews in our show notes as well as links to everyone who participated our final sponsor. Thank you goes to the seattle wholesale crowhurst market. A farmer owned cooperative committed to providing the very best the pacific northwest has to offer in cut flowers foliage and plants. The growers markets mission is to foster a vibrant marketplace sustains local flower farms and provides top quality products and services to the local floral industry. Visit them at seattle wholesale. Growers market dot com. Thanks so much for joining us today. The slow flowers podcast has been downloaded more than seven hundred fifty three thousand times by listeners. Like you thank you for listening commenting sharing in means so much. As our movement gains more supporters and more passionate participants who believe in the importance of our domestic cut flower industry. The momentum is contagious. I know you feel it too. High value your support and invite you to show your thanks to support the flowers ongoing advocacy education and outreach activities you can find the donate button in the column to the right at deborah. Printing dot com. I'm deborah printing hosts ed producer of the slow flowers show and the slow flowers podcast. Next week you're invited to join me and putting more slow flowers on the table. One stem one vase at a time. The content and opinions expressed here are either mine alone or those of my guests alone. Independent of any podcast sponsor or other person company or organisation. The slow flowers podcast is engineered and edited by andrew. Brennan thank you so much to andrew for helping me set our new video podcasts platform and for teaching me the technology. I'll be relying more on his talents. In the coming days. you can learn more about andrew's work at sound body movement dot com.

kiara Hancock tacoma kiara hancock deborah printing Twig farms Lisette elizabeth cronin maurice harris keyarris forte Hancock hichiara youtube Kiara facebook university of puget sonics university of south
What Can the Pandemic Tell Us About State of States' Rights?

1A

32:51 min | Last week

What Can the Pandemic Tell Us About State of States' Rights?

"This message comes from. Npr sponsor code for america who believes government can and should work well for everyone. Code for america works with governments and communities to build digital tools and services to meet today's challenges and push for a better tomorrow learn more at code for america dot. Org this is one a. I'm jen white. President biden his spent months trying to get the country fully vaccinated. Now he's taking a new approach executive order this move will likely face legal challenges but for some of you. It feels long overdue. Hi this is best. Connor from ellicott city maryland. And i think it's about darn time at biden enacted this mandate. I think we have to show that we have some strength here too many times. The republicans are railroading us into some really bad decisions. Good morning this is. Mary and i'm commenting on the question whether the federal government should get involved in mandating vaccines of course they can or should and thank god. Mr biden has the goan ed's to do it. My name is big. I am so happy. That president biden has done executive orders. On the vaccine. I worked for federal hospital. It is the best thing that has happened to this country. Hi my name. Is peggy fry from wilmington north carolina. This is the time of the federal government. Let's use his power to protect all of us. Hi i'm larry. Makovsky cow ski and tunnel. Wander new york. I fully support president. Biden's mask mandate enough is enough. I'm tired of being terrified that my children and my grandchildren might get sick. I'm tired of the poor nurses and doctors who are exhausted and nuff with being nice. Thanks for those messages. If you'd like to add your voice to future conversations download our app one a fox pop and leave us an audio message. Mine is executive. Order is just one more. Not in a tangle debate over who should have more power in deciding the response to cove it the states or the federal government joining us to discuss the fraught history of states rights. And how cova has reenergized this debate. Is nancy bristow. She's a distinguished professor and chair of history at the university of puget sound. She's also the author of american pandemic lost worlds of the nineteen eighteen influenza pandemic. Nancy it's great to have you thank you so much. It's great to be here. Also with us is john dinan. He's a professor of political science at wake forest university. He's also the author of state constitutional politics governing by amendment john. Welcome to the program. Thank you it's good to be here. So let's start with president biden's executive orders. He will require all federal employees to get vaccinated as a condition of employment. He's also requiring businesses with more than one hundred employees to make their workers. Either get the vaccine or be tested for kovic weekly. The rule also applies to some healthcare facilities. John does the federal government. Have the power to issue this kind of mandate. It's very unclear whether the federal government has this power and let's separate several issues here. First of all could a state government issue such a mandate almost. Certainly yes would the federal government in particular president or president an administrative agency say that federal employees or individuals or institutions receiving federal funding. Could they be required to abide by certain requirements. Almost certainly yes. Can the federal government and in particular the president and osha issue a broader mandate. That would actually tell employers that they must require this. That has never been done in that respect. That's a much more difficult question. And at this stage it would be considered an uphill battle for the president to actually maintain the legality of that for reasons that we can go into more including a recent supreme court decision from the us supreme court on the eviction moratorium. But let me leave it at that by now by saying it's an uphill battle for the president to claim the legality of this measure. What is outside the federal government authority in the context of a pandemic. What is it not have the power to do. That's what's been very interesting. Among many other things over the last year and a half is is in an emergency situation at health emergency. A lot of americans instantly looked to the federal government and assumed that the federal government would have power to address a health crisis and yet when they said well who has the power to actually Limit that size of gatherings to one hundred people. Well that'd be the governor but not the president who who has the power to open or close schools. That'd be the governor and not the president who has the power to open or close businesses again. That'd be a state governor not the president and so it simply put it. The federal government is limited in many respects in some ways. The many of the most important decisions during the pandemic have arrested in state officials and have been outside of federal power. We heard from several of you about how cove it is being handled in your state. This is sherry from nashville governor. Bill lee has made a mess of the cova pandemic outlawed math. He has created all kinds of tap and methane us. Hi this is. Jody from wisconsin. And how my government is handled. The pandemic has been just kickable. I'm a small business owner and we've had to make our own rules are state legislature has spent their time fighting a mandate that the governor put into place instead of trying to keep us all safe by. This is evan from colorado. My states done pretty good at the mass mandating. But i don't think stage should be the ones in charge of math mandating the fact that some states have banned mask mandates in themselves it's like banning protection from the virus. Hi my name is cheryl. And i'm calling from north central florida. You know that my governor is rhonda santa's and he has made a mess of the florida response to the hen. Denic if the states had less control over what goes on and the federal government had more control we would have more people that were alive today. The sherry jody. Suzanne evidence cheryl thinks. We're leaving us those messages. Nancy some of us may think that the patchwork response to kovic we're seeing is unique to our time but the same was true during the nineteen eighteen pandemic how to different states respond to the outbreak. Back then it was. I talk about a scattershot. Approach or a smorgasbord of options because again it depended on what the state governor believed. They would often be influenced by what the public health officers believed. And then in turn you had county officials. And then you had city officials and they would have the widest array of responses to this very much like what we're seeing right now. What's really important to name is that we have really clear data from nineteen eighteen but tells us that there is a real different than in death rate for communities. You can see that those that had an early layered and sustained response to the pandemic versus those that did not serve much better so it's been shocking for me in some ways to see a replay in a sense exactly what happened in nineteen eighteen and yet we had data from their experiences that we could have learned from and we all know viruses. Don't care about county lines and state lines and national line and so the idea that we continue to manage a pandemic at the local level is is nonsensical to be honest. And get you on. What i'm hearing is some just basic misunderstanding about. Who has the power in situations. Like this what do you think is at the root of that well. The american federal system is very complex. And it really does distribute power at various different levels. And as nancy was just we can talk about the federal government level in its responsibilities. Then we have the stick sponsors and then we have local government and its responsibilities. And i think some of the comments that you were playing earlier kind of alluded to that we have. It's it's not just a matter of federal government in some ways conflict with state officials and certainly that conflict has been on display trump administration on the by administration but some of the biggest conflicts right now or within the state that is between the governor of a state and sometimes the legislatures and city councils or county boards of commissioners and. Of course this is. Playing out in mask mandate questions but it's also played out and a lot of lockdown policies over the last last last year that is an unexplored degree of conflict which we will explore here today. It's very difficult in short for citizens to keep tab of all these different levels and all these different conflicts. There's a good reason why states have a level of power they do but our national preoccupation with state's rights is connected to america's racist past. We'll get into that after the break. This message comes from. Npr sponsor samsung with the samsung galaxy z. Flip three five g. Flip your galaxy z. Flip three five geeta to flex mod for hands-free pigs and group fees without the need for an outdated selfie stick with hands-free chatting. Your phone stands on its own without sliding around or leaving your friends talking to the ceiling. Just flip your phone open halfway. Set it down and do your thing. Five g connection and availability may vary check with carrier. This message comes from capital one with the capital one venture card you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase and you can use those miles toward travel expenses like flights hotels rental cars and more just book and pay for your travel using your venture card and redeem your miles toward the cost capital one. What's in your wallet. Credit approval required capital one bank. Usaa writer aj jacobs decided to teach himself to be grateful. That doesn't come to me naturally. Might default mood is more. Larry david than mister rogers. The ideas that helped. Aj go from grouchy too. Grateful that's on the ted radio hour from npr over this last year and a half the world's been through a lot so on this season of the story of podcast. We'll hear stories reminding us that. Even when times are hard we can still begin again. Listen to our new season wherever you get your podcast. We're discussing the authority of the federal government versus the power of the states. During the pandemic ma tweets my employer has done the bare minimum in the pandemic. So i'm glad someone is making them do something. These vaccination mandates are long overdue. And john we also heard from someone earlier saying enough is enough and you can hear the frustration and some of the callers who are unhappy with their states response to the pandemic. At what point can the federal government step in and do something it might not normally do especially in a crisis. Where is that line. Well let's say. I've been emphasizing some of the authority that state governors have. But let's talk about what the federal can clearly do one thing. The federal government can clearly do in that state. Government can't do is actually limit travel to and from the united states. And so that's clearly a step that has been taken in this regard and that's solely within the federal government's power. Federal government also has a lot more money and resources than state governments have and so in terms of funding development of a vaccine funding providing making available versus personal protective equipment The president also has access to its we know as the defense production act which actually does allow the president to order private companies to actually take certain steps to prioritize production of various materials both president trump and biden have done that and the federal government also has the ability to put requirements on. What can be done in federal property in interstate travel in terms of train or her boss or plane travel and with institutions receiving federal funding. They say you have to abide by these requirements. All that is in place and yet the federal constitutional system does put limits. It says the federal government does not have powers beyond what possesses and there is not a crisis or emergency provisions in the. Us constitution is unusual in that regard we looked constitutions around the world most of them have crisis provision or an emergency provisions and it allows for expansion powers. The us does not have it now. It's true that judicial interpretation can sometimes be more elastic during those times but in terms of an actual provisions the us lacks an emergency or crisis proficient. Let's listen to another message. We got from someone who's weary of the federal government's power. Hey this is eugenia from chilmark math. I don't believe in a vaccine mandate. And so i do think that the states individually should handle the procedures that they're already doing for vaccine rollout. The body is sovereign. And it's hard to think that the federal government should have any control on what goes inside the body. He genia thinks we're leaving us that voicemail. So eugenia seems to be talking about individual sovereignty in the issue of government overreach. How does this idea of individual sovereignty connect to the states rights argument john. Well it's actually really two different issues. Because i if somebody might be opposed to certain mandate but if they come from the state government they would actually be legal in many cases under the us system even when they would not be legal under the federal system and solely based on the nature of the american competition system and how much power is distributed to each level. But i will say that and we've had it now year and a half of of of the pandemic and go back to a moment in april. Two thousand twenty when president trump was at a press conference and he was talking about when the country would reopen and and people asked and they said what are you. Can you decide this president. You have this power. He said when it comes to these matters. The president has total authority over the governors and a lot of people heard that statement at the press conference. I don't think that's right. And i don't think it should be right if it is right. I don't. I don't like the idea that president trump could just decide when when the country would reopen so great push back against president trump. I don't think you're right about that. President trump and the next few days there was some cleanup of that and the president acknowledged in his own way that he lacked that power but that was a bit of a wakeup call to people and they said is there a that would be the downside to an overly a significant amount of power in the federal government that it sometimes people may say. I actually think that the federal government has it wrong in this case and and in that case some people had more trust in their governors than they did at the president. We've got a couple of questions about other vaccine. Charlene writes on facebook. Not sure why. Some complain about government mandating this covert vaccine yet. They have never complained about the polio measles or mumps vaccines most schools demand. Kids get and kokomo kid asks does. The federal government mandate other. Vaccines like smallpox or polio. John well let me go back to the cases. It's it's the state. Government would have this authority in regard to say for instance schools and that authority has been clearly upheld by the us supreme court. There's two key cases back in the early part of the of the twentieth century in one town of massachusetts said. We're going to require a smallpox vaccine and without challenge at the supreme court said in a time of a health emergency state governments and by extension their local governments. They have the authority to do. This came up later on a decade and half later khuda school system. A local school system require vaccine for for students in that way and they can use me. And i say that is an extension of state government power. That's entirely legitimate. So there's a strong foundation in state and local authorities in school system making that decision. What would different is is a broad mandate from the federal government to issue that. And that's the key distinction that would make your on. Certain areas state and localities aren't very strong round. We're in different territory when it comes to the federal government issue certain of these requirements and the state's rights debate doesn't only have major implications during a public health crisis. This tension between the federal government and the state was also very charged during the civil rights movement. Tell us about that tension. Many of the arguments that we're used to come back Civil rights legislation voting rights legislation was framed as the state should have the power and so for many of us who studied history. We recognize that. The argument around states rights has a long standing connection to racism and the reassertion of white supremacist. Power looking back at the civil war. Many states in many Southern loyalists had framed. The civil wars having been go. It wasn't actually about slavery it was really about the state's rights to bait and so when we take that position. We're really just defending our state and our local cultures that was always a cover for racism and a cover for an unwillingness to move into a world in which the country would try to live up to its founding documents and actually have you know racial equity and so for many of us when people want to use a states rights argument that the federal government has to stay out of the state business. It's troubling because of that history And so again. I realized i let me be clear. I'm not suggesting that everyone says the governor says the governor should have the right to determine this policy not the president. I'm not saying they are all using it for that reason but there is a history of that and so i think for many people. That argument is troubling because we want to pull it apart of look carelessly to see what the root what the source of that argument really is and its greatest power in american politics has come from its connection to racism effort to pain a white supremacist system with a clear racial hierarchy. Let's bring one more voice into the conversation. Liliana mason is an associate research professor in the department of political science at johns hopkins university. She's also the author of uncivil agreement. How politics became our identity. Liana welcome to the program. Thank you so much for having me. So as we've mentioned the response to cove it has dramatically vary depending upon what state you live in. How much of this variation comes down to the political polarization of our country. Yeah so this is a. It's a huge. It's a huge portion of it. There are there are large discrepancies. Between just the percentage of republicans who've been vaccinated at and that percentage of democrats who've been vaccinated and You know the governors who are enacting Sort of more lax kovic laws or anti vaccination anti mask in laws are universally republican which reflects a really politicized environment around the pandemic itself. Which wasn't necessary didn't actually have to be that way. But but ultimately the way that trump responded initially by sort of downplaying the virus and saying it was going to go away and then having biden beat the democratic president. Now who's encouraging these sort of scientifically driven recommendations for addressing the pandemic The sort of national politics has created incentives for for republican leaders to reject anything that biden says basically on a partisan basis. No part of your research is on strong political identities and the pressure to confirm conform to the norms of the party. What's the social psychology behind. This need to conform for example to things like wearing a mask or not wearing a mask or getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated so one of the things that's happened in the last two decades. Is that our. Partisan identities have become a lot stronger and that's partly because our racial and religious and cultural identities have come into alignment with our party identity so when our party status threatened we also feel like all of these other groups that were member of Their status threatened to so it feels like a much more dire threat and when your group is under threat in terms of our art psychological response we tend to sort of close ranks and everybody kind of cooperates and does the same thing and you know some traders to the group are much much more dangerous in a in a case of threat like this so basically as polarization increases as partisanship increases people. Who don't toe the party line are punish more. Socially by their co group members and also It's becomes more imperative for people in one party to make themselves very distinct from people and the other party so as soon as masks were were were politicized wearing a mask became linked with being a democrat for some people and that meant that people who felt very strongly like republicans. Were not ever going to do that. But it was a very public facing demonstration that that they were part of other group and they didn't want they didn't want to put that show on and so so and the vaccine ultimately ended up becoming linked with being republican as well so anyone who goes outside of that of that sort of norm of anti masking and anti vacs attitudes feels like. They're not a loyal republican but there are a number of similarities between the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic and and now There were even anti masking groups back. Then how big of a problem was political polarization. At that time most of the conflict was not partisan so there would be fights between a public health leader and mayor but it would be about who was wielding power as opposed to whether they were republicans or democrats. The nation was at war. And i think that really tempered the kind of partisan divide. It was also very different time historically but just much less of the partisan part so there was plenty of conflicts. We're discussing the authority of the federal government versus the power of the states during the pandemic. We'll be back with more in a moment. this message comes from. Npr sponsor basf north american chairman and ceo. Michael hines shares. Why they're taking on that challenge of improving the batteries and electric cars. We are one of the major suppliers off the main ingredients that you would find in common factuals battery. Industrial automotive industry is shifting more towards electromobility. We also have a responsibility through science to come up with some of these solutions to learn more about. Basf's battery material. Innovations go to be a s. f. dot com It's been twenty years since the nine eleven attacks that changed our world this week on the story court. Podcast from npr. A look at the legacy of nine eleven through the stories of those closest to it. Listen wherever you get your podcasts Over this last year and a half the world's been through a lot so on this season of the story podcast. We'll hear stories reminding us that. Even when times are hard we can still begin again. Listen to our new season wherever you get your podcast. We're discussing state versus federal power during the pandemic. John wouldn't pick up our conversation with this question. About how the country's changed we live in a diversifying and increasingly polarized country and state's rights is a principal had different implications back when the country was much smaller and only white male property owners could vote. so how does that significant change in the country. Impact this discussion. There's no doubt that the decision to become a federal system and how portion powers in that federal system were made it a very different time from from from today. it's worth thinking about. What are the proposed. We've heard a lot about naturally the downsides of having a federal system and meeting a pandemic and so we're thinking what are the purported benefits and are we realizing those benefits. What are the reasons why some might actually see oh. Let's continue with the current federalist system and not redistribute one of the leading benefits. That's put out there. I'll just pick one is that states can serve laboratories of experimentation as one of the famous benefits of federal that that holds throughout time. And does that still hold true today as the question to laboratories of experimentation story says that it will have fifty different states. Trying out the different experimentation we can learn from them and we did see some evidence of that early in the pandemic. it was early state decisions. I said let's lock down the state and other states could say. Is that working well or is it not actually. I think that's a good idea. Let's follow that. And then other states would have masked policies and other states say. Sounds like a good idea. I saw it on display there. Let me pick that up the challenges in a polarized era. Do we still do state. Still pick up the lessons from those experiments in the way that we would expect that is of judging and evaluating the benefits in a more or less objective way or are those lessons picked up more long political and partisan lines of folk saying well. This is what another republican state is doing. Let me follow that. The laboratories of experimentation benefit of federalism would really work if people really are trotting out experiments and judging them fairly on the merits. It may be seen as working less in polarized era. Let's hear from someone who skeptical about giving the federal government more power. This is brad from florida. I think boorda's response as been pretty chaotic. However i'm not so sure. If i think that the federal government should get more involved as we see last year with the response from donald trump you can imagine that he probably would have been pretty hands on trying to dismantle the restrictions and more progressive state. So i really don't know if a federal responses would be sufficient or not brad. Thanks relieving leaving that voice mail and and he brings up a good point power or who holds it power. It's not static. The federal government isn't a static entity well beyond and it sounds like part of what brad is referring to the the partisan nature of government is a whole right now. Ideally every government whether democratic or republican would respond to a public health crisis with the same level of urgency. But that hasn't been the case how does growing part partisanship in. How officials govern impact the way people engage. Or disengage from government. More broadly this is so important And there was even you know. Evidence during the trump administration that You know the commission led by jared kushner to address the pandemic Intentionally pulled back their response because the people who were dying of kovic were were generally in blue cities and democrats democratic cities and so politically. It wasn't as much of a problem for them at that point. And and so you know what does a couple of things one is. It reduces people's trust in government and faith that the government can can successfully do anything to help them. And then and the other thing that we've seen is this polarization not only over you know the covert response but also about sort of science itself and what you no respect for science and trust in scientists in research and empirical results and that we found that you know. Republicans disproportionately are losing faith in science and scientific results. So that even if they're seeing you know the places where the where vaccination rates are lowest are the places where the emergency rooms are the most full of covert patients. Even that type of evidence is not enough to combat. This sort of motivated reasoning is defensive. Thinking that a lot of that a lot of republican citizens have because a lot of their media is telling them that they should not be getting vaccinated and they should not be worried about the pandemic themselves so they end up just believing that story rather than looking to the experts and looking to the scientists. Here's an email. We got from jonathan. While i certainly agree that the history of states rights revolves around a racist agenda. I believe it's more nuance than your guests. Have described one of the greatest fears of our early founders was a central government that could seize power. It makes sense that there was not even an emergency procedure. Put in place in the constitution which has been used as an excuse for autocrats and other countries to assume control nancy any response to jonathan certainly understand that there are nuances to the issue around state's rights and certainly. That was one of the things i was trying to say. Which is i recognize that their multiplicity of arguments around state versus federal power. I think it's important that we keep in the conversation. Their historical realities that so many of the arguments that we've heard in the twentieth century around states rights have revolved around that racist agenda and that we can't lose track of that being a factor in some cases as we hear that argument now especially when you look at where the arguments are coming from politically. Let's go to one more voicemail. We got from jacob in austin texas. I don't even know what's going on with my government. The local governments try to do things to protect people. And then the state government removes all those protections. It's as if they don't care whether we live or die it's ridiculous. I don't even feel represented in this state. I live in an area that seventy five percent democrats and we have a republican representing us. Jacob thinks we're leaving us at voicemail a couple of other messages. We got over twitter. Kelly says it's very tired. Healthcare provider that lives in south carolina. I welcomed this action by the government. If we want to get back to normal then we as a society need to take bold action now. Healthcare workers cannot keep this up. It's unsustainable and my tweets. I hadn't thought about the state versus federal power angle i support the vaccine mandate but power is power. It can just as easily be used for something i oppose. I can affect my state politics much more easily than federal politics very briefly. John how do you think the pandemic has possibly changed or deepened. The state's right debate going forward. It's certainly a wakened a lot of people they might have heard about this in school. The nature of the federal system. Now they're seeing it on full display. A lot of people came into the pandemic. Probably assuming the federal government has power to possess any action. it needs to really fight the pandemic reasonably. That was likely a wakeup call. When people saw actually their limits to the federal government's power and a lot of the power is interpreted resting the state level. One clear benefit of that is people are. I believe spending a lot more time focusing on their state and local officials when they go to the ballot box in coverage. I'm certain whether they that deepens their respect for the decentralized nature of the us system or it leads them to pursue reforms. I think you'll see people going in different directions as is typical of a polarized american system. That's john dinan. He's a professor of political science at forest university. also with us today lilliana mason. She's an associate research. Professor in the department of political science and nancy bristow a distinguished professor and chair of history at the university of puget. Sound nancy john liliana. Thanks for the conversation. Today's producer was haley blasingame. Our podcast is produced by barb on. This program comes to you from w. amu part of american university in washington. Distribute it by npr. I'm jen white. Thanks for listening and we will talk more soon. This is one off this message comes from. Npr sponsor samsung with the samsung galaxy z. Flip three five g. Unfold your screens your best angle. Choose what you want to capture. Set it down. Stand back and shoot five. G connection and availability may vary check with carrier.

federal government president trump president biden america supreme court biden jen white President biden nancy bristow Mr biden john dinan university of puget peggy fry Makovsky rhonda santa Denic cheryl aj jacobs eugenia Nancy
The foundations of Continuous Delivery

The Changelog

1:13:37 hr | 2 months ago

The foundations of Continuous Delivery

"Everyone wants to kubiak here editor in chief of change logging today in the fee were sharing one of the most popular episodes of our new podcast called ship. It ship it launched in may and now has eight episodes in the fee to enjoy it's hosted by gerhard zoo. Check it out and subscribe at change. Law dot com slash ship. It in any religion podcasts. Every go hey. How's it going. I'm your host the zoo and you're listening to ship it. A pulp cost about getting your best ideas into the world and see what happens. We talk about code ops infrastructure and the people that make it happen. Yes we focus on the people because everything else is an implementation detail. Today i have the privilege of chatting with day farley the inventor of deployment pipeline and co author of continuous delivery. He's one of the few that had a profound and permanent impact on my professional career and most likely yours too. We talk about what a good continues. Delivery pipeline should be why there's no template for the ideal pipeline just yet and why you should subscribe to the continuous delivery youtube channel. We also discussed the change. Dot com deployment pipeline. After this conversation. I will always assume that i'm wrong. Strive to learn quicker and make it my ship. Admission to chat with elon musk. They've likes this idea. big thanks. Our partners falsely launched arkley and lynnette our bandwidth has provided by fastly learn more at fosse dot com feature flags powered by launched arche dot com. And we love they keep it fast and simple check out at limited call for slash change. This episode is brought to you by influx date and the makers of influence the daytime series platform for building and operating time-series applications influence. Bb empowers developers to build iot analytics and monitoring software is purpose built to handle massive volumes in countless sources of timestamped data produced by sensors applications and infrastructure learn about the wide range of use cases of influx bb at influx data dot com slash solutions network monitoring team monitoring infrastructure and application monitoring to get started to influence dot com slash change log and click get influx bb again. That's influence did it. Dot com slash cheese luck. I remember how difficult it used to be to get code into production. Ftp used to be used. The law are saying that used to be a thing getting things out there and something happened around twenty ten there starts to be a shift and twenty twelve twenty thirteen there was an acceleration all just get pushing and the coach would get out there and i thought that was amazing. Like why haven't we been doing this all along. I mean what else do you need just to get out there for the uses. Tell you doesn't work or doesn't need work or you're missing base the quicker you can get to that point the better off you are and even if you make mistakes. That's okay. how do you learn if you don't make mistakes. So don't try to not make mistakes. Try to make them so quickly and fix things so quickly that no one even notices by the time they notice. There's a problem you fix. It exists so. I think you had something to do with this because around. Twenty ten right you publish this book. You co author this book with jazz humble which was called continues delivery and even though hand on heart. I haven't read the book but everything that you capturing the book. I'm sure have practiced for more than decade and cannot think of working any different. So how'd you come up with the concept delivery. I'll start off on a missing on very old of being used for a long time and so mostly came up with this is by doing it wrong. In lots of weird and interesting ways. I and finding out what didn't work i had to call of fomative experience several formative experiences but one time i remember in the late nineties building some reasonably conflict software for an insurance company. And we were supposed to deploy it by rising a manuscript that somebody would then take over and execuse and the system wasn't configured in the way that we expect it. We didn't know what configuration system was really didn't work very well so i remember me and a friend. Spending two days stood up in a server room somewhere trying to manually install the software on thinking. There's got to be a bad way of doing later on. I wet on a on a project for point of sale system in our wet fulfill it looks nearly thousands and we do doing extreme programming at some scale at the time. We thought that it was probably the biggest agile projects in the will to them about two hundred people with job project in three different continents. He knows di- sanitary with badge all in those just small projects and we were kind of trying ideas and so we started to get more disciplined in our approach resulted saying the things that are going wrong. And we started to introduce more of the deployments automation more of the configuration management infrastructures code. Better approaches to automated testing. and starting to formulate bicyc- deployment pipelines have to those and is that period that we saw to playing with the ideas and pulling something together and thought we had something. The book itself came out of a notion. There were a bunch of doing different things on different projects in thought works and we thought that we were on something we were starting to see patterns that worked and we were starting to apply those to the project so we would go in having a sense of what to do to begin projects in absolute success with it and so we thought we'd kinda writes a book that was initially meant to be a series of essays. And they're a bunch of that. Say yeah we got some stuff to sign started co humanity actually when it came to enter the jazz ninety writing. That's why we ended up writing the book and the book morphed into something else it certainly. It didn't start at being called continuous delivery but a morph into something else end. Both of us. I think a little bit wary of thinking of the time as a naidoo saying that it's kind of a methodology. I think it's a way of approaching after sunrise. And i believe that in engineering practice. I think that engineering in the sense of amplifying the impacts and talents of the people that are making the changes as you said it. Software development is weird stuff and in one of the really hard things knowing hell progressing. No good your ideas and so you wanna be able to get those icing signs of us as quickly and efficiently so that you can learn from that and adapt and change. And and i think he put it perfectly when you were describing it in terms of we want to give ourselves the freedom to make. Mistakes wanted to be able to start of one of them. I m a popular science nerd. I love reading about science and physics in particular. And i think that we can learn a lot from the fundamental philosophies science i doubt main connor six. Sigma accuracy in statistics. Something like that. But just applying khanna scientifically rational thinking. Sartre office hearing that wrong. Rather than it's even that we test testosterone ideas trying to falsify our ideas. Those are better ways of doing work and it doesn't really matter what what that you're doing that stuff just works better and certainly the ability to move quickly make. Small changes quickly. Observe the impact of the changes so the in effect control the variables limiting the scope. The blast radius of mistakes is a fantastic way making progress efficiently. One of the things that i am obsessed with watching elon. Musk's spacex builds star tips to go to malls and blowing them up in texas. Because that's how you learn. That's how you do great engineering. I think we're onto something here. Because i think continuously reason an apprentice. This facilitates that kinda thinking and that kind of approach to software. You've made so many great points. But i have difficulty tracking all the things that they want to mention two points. I mean there's so much so that you start with this first of all thank you very much. You have no idea how big of an impact your approach and your teachings and schering's had not just on me but on everyone. I know the stuff that you do and the stuff that you've been promoting four decades now have been part of me in many different ways so for example i was also into physics when i was in high school and i was convinced that i'll go to university study physics but then when i was in Puget sound university of puget. Sound in tacoma. There was the max plank. Talk one hundred years from max plank. That was a fascinating conference. But i discovered the macintosh. Finish my life. So i was so good at making mistakes and learning from them and deploying and figuring out doesn't work that people like i said. Can you do my website and can you host my thing and can you like oh half like how do i do emails. I don't know how the emails yes was the early two thousands. That's when i started doing these things properly. And i realize well this approach of trying to figure out if it works. It's so good you don't need anything else. Keep learning keep its rating keeping proving. And that's that's all there is to it. Nothing else and continues. Delivery is so fundamental to this approach of working that everything changes. And you don't want to go back. I mean yeah. I can't imagine absolutely. That's one of the things i've observed first of all. Thank you for saying. Thank you very kind. But five hundred the privilege of working with some great teams of the years. And i have yet to see one. The as adopted continuous delivery. Nor the i would recognize the the ever wants to work in a different way so one of my other fomative experiences was always involved in building a very very high performance. Financial exchange wallow is in the middle of rights in the continues to revoke and that was an exercising genuine engineering. Where we're doing some really hard stuff. Some really difficult stuff to be able to build these ridiculously efficient software system but we were south during the blank sheets of paper. I was the head of software development and always dat in the middle of this continuously rethinking. Because i was in the middle rice in the book so we built the organization from the ground up as it continues to live reorganization and the combination. Message that i still get from the people that i work on. That project is got mixed what it was like. They're you know if they've moved on their gun somewhere else. One of my friends natalie's in new zealand and he's working he regularly grumball's to me county movie doing those things people don't want to go back to different line with be stuff. Works better and fascinating. Lee with gathering data to batman's signs up for science notes. Like you and i. You shouldn't just trust what we say. We should also gather deitz air and you should try for yourself and all those things. Because if we right it's reproducible thing he'd up some kind of magic. I love that starting from. I'm wrong yet. Let me figure out what right looks like. Yes and if you always assume that you're wrong even with all your experience and everything you know you will never be wrong. That's like very weird because you'll figure what's right as you don't know what's right days. It changes all the time. It's contextual and most importantly. It's the people that you work with. They always change your replace a team member. You have a new team on these. Someone joins you have a whole new team. So how do you stick to those principles. And how do you promote those healthy principles that everybody respects abides by and in the magic happens and i think you capturing the little bit of magic with your friends right as used to work with and you became so much more than co workers. That's that's amazing. Yes certainly and i think that certainly the difficult problem way technologists and so we often get you know lewd by the technology. Your joy of discovering the macintosh and all that kind of stuff but the hard parts are no fright but it is true that the han parts of the people pots. It's not that continuous delivery or it's practice particularly difficult. In fact i would argue the reverse. I would argue that. One of the lewis of this way of working is that. He's a much simpler way of working. But you have to put some working and you have to think about things differently and you have to discard some of the the baggage from previous rise of thinking about things and that a so incredibly difficult for people and organizations to do that these days on a decent living helping people to try and make that change but it's incredibly difficult and one of my proudest boasts is the in the organization the legislation we don't the exchange it it was an organization called l. Max still exists still riding still running these exchanges around the world built on our technology and the culture is still fantastic funnily enough by so job advert for developers for olmecs. Press events is today. And i was reading back to always smiling to myself because i probably could have written. That jove adver seven years ago when our left because you know the colt chase still. The behavior is still and that continued so we started something that the group of people that were there at the beginning. That's the endurable in that organization. We established i development. Coach that has not only lasted but as being communicated to subsequent will generation of developing and other people with unionized environment. Which i think he's fantastic. I'm incredibly proud of that. It is difficult to get people thinking differently to change their minds to jump the the road. Severe old habits and jumping to a new of thinking things which is these days is a law of the same that get pleasure from his trying to help. People just think about ideas differently. So would you say that. The people influence these practices and the people contribute to how these practices work or is the inverse true where the practices influence the people to behave in a certain way and then sustain these practices long-term. I think it's both. I think it's a combination. I think it's a little bit to try. So we've always said things like it takes grace after asian a great tournament teams and that's true unique good people but it's not enough. I've worked with so genuinely brilliant developers building bad software. And that's not their fault. A bad process will break good people every time. And so there's more to it than not only that these gang. He's he's one of those things. While i refer back to silence quite so frequently often develop because development teams and organizations disdainful of process because they assume that software is a hurok exercise. Carry by geniuses. Toiling against the code minting. But you could sign the same kind of thing about science. Sciences terrific endeavor. A human activity carried by fallible mistaken human beings butts by organizing their thinking in a certain way they eliminate whole classes of errors and biases that are built into us threat biology and if he wants to do engineering which i would cans as an application so practical science to practical and these the white is in engineering if you wanna do engineering of that full which has come to think of what we do as when we do stuff. I'm talking about then. If you wanna do that they even have a have come. You're to improve your chances. It's no guarantee it's not going to make a bad development team. Great it's not gonna make a bad development team build world class software but it's going to improve. The quality of their work is going to amplify their talents skills to an extent that i can do better than they would do with anti and that's true of will class developers to one silly example one of my good friends who were two elements we have. He was the cto. I was studying. He's martin thompson. And i regard marching as at least one of the best. Probably the best program i've ever met. He's genuinely brilliant. Really really talented guy. And i've known him for a long time. I've known him for many years. We first met in the nineties and is younger than me. And he was young man and he was very very good then. But i told him to do test you in development l. max and he and i think he's a better developer now and he was before there are some of these techniques however good you are or a badger can preview and if we were to be able to identify something that we could class as an engineering discipline. Then i think it would have that kind of property which is really talking about. I think we are all in software development circles in that we tend to take terms and change what they may. I think in nearly every other context that we can think of software if you use the term engineering it means the stuff that works in software development. We turn to me something else. Usually something more complex than something that we don't want very much. I think we have some power. And i think that i like to use reasonably straight definitional approach to causing things fulham ideas and if we think of engineering in terms of the practical application of science than he ought to look for software at least as much as it does something else and we have a bunch of advantages in favor to. We've got one of the most powerful experimental platforms that happens to also be exactly whereas software lives and competes. First of all. I read like that. You point out this distinction between engineers software engineers and developers because very important distinction. Don't even think about it. And they use the terms interchangeably. Yes but they mean very different things now. I think we can have a show just about that whether we are software engineers or software developers. So let's part that they recognize it for what it is and we want to the other thing which i like when you mentioned this martin. Being the best software developers engineers software developers are engineers. Okay okay great. So being martin like best software craftsman software person. tb mating better before td. What made him so good. In your eyes there are lots of things. He's a very smart guy we helps. It's not enough but it helps one of martin's great talents is he's got a laser beam focus on simplicity and one of the things the island from developing software with martin is. I really strengthen one of the toes in mind. Toolbox which is focusing on separation of concerns so martin's absolutely burly. He sees the least piece of code that these doing things immediately pulling pots trying separate those two things of each race of copies focused on achieving. Wanna come and then you know. He's growing it from that and he's always had these martin's saudis always is almost rating. Pros is readable modular. It's have easier. It's just nice code. He's also but listening fast it martin's one of the world's experts on high-performance and concurrent systems. He's widely recognized as such people in the java team occasionally asking for his advice that things up in that kind of thing is well respected in the industry but the thing that i value most is focused on separation of concerns as a driving force in the design. The applies to code. I kind of had more informal use of that contact me. My design skills were pretty decent. Coda i'm not. I'm not that developer. Myself but martin was always so focused on and i picked that up now and now on always looking. Couldn't pull something about hearing. I'm much nicer as a result. I can definitely see how the td would have enhanced that property or that aspect because it forces you to focus right. I mean you could be focused or not as you write code but when you're i- td properly if you start with read right which is always the first one this tweet reds go green than we factor and even have a video on this and i don't like we'll introduce a bit later but that's i think fascinating to see how simple it is if you really think about it and one of things again. I'm jumping here between things. But there's so many things i wanna talk to you about is how it took you re long time of thinking working in the space of extreme programming agile. I'm sure it's big part of that. Continuous delivery test driven development. To not only hone your skills but also share your skills and share your your knowledge with everyone. Bats wants to listen or is interested in these things so in a way. It's not just the focus. I would say but also the consistency and the perseverance to stick with it. I mean it's in decades and you've been sticking with the same thing right on the same hill it's like i mean sure you're sharing with others. I know the jazz humble has a same hill may be different hill. The point being these things Stand the test of time and focusing on that one thing long-term as what i know recognition admiration thankfulness respect. That's how you build them success. Whatever you wanna call it. it's all related. I think okay. That was very nice story. Thank you for that. That's a pleasure. This episode is brought to you by our friends at launch darkly feature management for the modern enterprise power testing in production at any scale. Here's how it works. Darkly enables development teams in operation teams to deploy code at any time. Even if a teacher is ready to release users wrapping cova feature flags gives you the test new features in infrastructure in your production environments without impacting the wrong and users. When you're ready to release more widely update the flag status and the genes or made instantaneously by the real time streaming architecture eliminate risk deliver value get started for free today at launch darkly dot com. Again start the dot com. Now as we come back. I would like to dig a little bit into the technology that you use back in the day. So the specifics around the ci system the cd system the programming language. The frameworks how that used to work. If you had any project tracking tools how you would organize work in the dais. And i'd like to think a little bit deeper into those specifics. Time took which cloud provide the used if any way would run these things and how the changed over time. So you're telling us some very good stories They've about your time at l. Max that you were very fond of some great people that you've worked with that you've been in contact ever since you were like part of that family. No way right like your work family. Maybe you're continues delivery family. Whatever you wanna call it. I would like to dig a little bit deeper into the specifics stack technology that used the time and also how the changed over time so in the early two thousands what the technology stack looked like the programming language. The framework the cd. How did you organize work. That type of thing. I'm more than happy to talk about tools and technology. I should begin by caveats it. Because i'm not very technology driven which is weird for technology society but i think that the tools the secondary i think that all value design design thinking more than i value the toes apply that in different tolls. Having said that someone background was largely in the family language. I did a lot of programming. Say nearly dies. Seep was plus lights are on during nearly thousands during points. The building the point south systems that was doing working. Java sometimes see shah base and all the things python play ruby slightly mostly the early days of continuous delivery when mostly on java projects onc- shop projects that i can think of and so we mostly using the technologies around at the time in the early two thousands. The one many tools sesame now continues to live restall tools so in the week just salted doing continuous integration really. At least they've become popular so people have been doing. Continuous integration for a long time. So i was doing some versions that nearly ninety s when we had continuous build but it was all just stunning gel splits tools to manage. I build process. No sorts of things come along until about two thousand in the first one was think of cruise control which is an open source project from so it works when we built the exchange l. Max we started off using java in cruise control the starting point for building a deployment pipeline and we built a very sophisticated deployment pipeline defer instances of that using mostly things like ants files as the glue between sages. Those sorts of things to encode more complicated beats of blue between the different pieces. We did a law of development of so tons reasonably sophisticated tooling iran we built our on deployment mechanism which was similar in some ways to something like chef or puppet be rally agent on the server in the cervical back to some master repository in poll. Dan changes deployed them for. We were doing early. Things with kind of infrastructure's code saw remember we wanted to be able to version control the configuration of networks which is and the only way that you could figure networks which use was through. A firmware admin console went based firmware. Lucky gate anaheim route or something like that so we wrote a little domain specific language that we could program the configuration of this thing game. We should say incumbent was back ended by. I think it was selenium something similar. Yeah that's right we. Would they drive the web app to poke the values into the route so it would do a lot messing around with. Oh so think very hawk very implementing those as we need as a very cool fatty sophisticated things one of the things that one of my colleagues mop price rents olmecs was still the best version. The i've seen ever of test distributor so we were managing a fairly large infrastructure to be able to get feedback fast enough. We had one big reaper. Put everything in one big repo and then we could build and tests and deploy everything together and we could be more than the united changes. It means that we didn't have to worry too. Much back. how loosely couple. We want good design so make sure. Our designs release teachable. But we didn't have to have them independently deployable paces so we could test them together. I so we did that. And that was efficient. We ended up with a network. When i left it was about. I think about forty eight different service that sees that ranna continuous delivery infrastructure and dynamically managed grid of compute grid to evaluate these thing which mark price write the software code romero to balancing manage all of these different instances so we need a lot of various tolling of that kind. We will not project in particular. We weren't very big consumers of the people software to some degree. We wrote a lot of stuff of iran tali because of the performance demands most of the third party software that we asked what wasn't fast enough what we were trying to do their exchange so he had to write down so we our on collections. For example okay. I hash map in java for each entry at the time creates five objects so you five garbage collection problems for every night in the had to ash back in those days so we wrote constant memory footprint hash maps of. We can go fast so we did a lot of stuff. Different levels of abstractions very low level technical diesel stuff to be a paycheck thing. That's really fascinating to capture the context in which these ideas came to be his while different. People may have had similar thoughts. You first of all you thought works was consultancy. I mentioned time right. So that's that's how we start. That's what i know about those works so not only you had to come up with these ideas but you also have to build the tools which didn't exist open source. I think was only just getting started. This was like early. Two thousands right so wasn't really thing. Get i think it was only just starting around that time. Get hauled in exist by the way and we know that's an important place that is for open source. Twitter didn't exist. Facebook exists a lot of the platforms that we have today didn't exist and the the cloud cloudy foundation didn't exist either so you were like i won't say avoid because that sounds negative but like you were like in the big c with no islands with no towns nothing no harbors inciting had to figure these things out and that was really challenging not because it was not invented here it was not that syndrome it just didn't exist and the communication was very different at the time as well so that must have been very challenging and even so you bill those things you ship those ideas you ship the codes and many people benefiting so many ways decades after he started like we're twenty one years twenty one years later we're talking about how the started and how relevant is and it feels to me like the whole world's in a way or the other the whole software world is revolving around the principles that you sat down then visit bit more history than that so you know there were people doing good stuff before us and open source of being around is an idea wasn't as big as it is nagged wasn't as much choice as nabet lennox iran's ally soils had release that as an consoles project considered revolving and so on a lot of the ideas that we were building on so this is an interesting place there was a brief spell i feel privileged to have worked for thought works at a time that was very exciting and thought works in london in particular i think was not quite on the same scale perhaps but it was almost like an agile xerox talk it was a place where some interesting fundamental ideas will kind of introduced as i said earlier. Agile big scale agile in a more commercial setting as i thought we were doing it because we thought we could make software more quickly but i'm better quality software using these techniques that would have a commercial advantage in part. These are the reasons why we doing. Some of these things they d- d continuous delivery mocking. These ideas that came into that office info alex several books that are famous growing Suffering guided by tests might continuous delivery. Though are people are net well known in the industry that we were all part of that group people working there time so that was an exciting place today. We were consciously experimenting implying with new ideas and trying to find allies doing things the software industry and being through what i think of. As a fatty rough time of trying to industrialize it through the lice 1890s applying techniques. That people thought would work to make it more effective and productive and they didn't and the agile movement was a bit of a reaction against placing on trying to say is that we would building on. The show is the giants before the before continuous delivery. All think of a second second-generation extreme programming. It's extreme programming book. Just some other ideas attitude that help you get there. It'd be easier more easily. Maybe in some ways. But if you're an extreme programming. You're not do wrong as as a starting. I see a lot of the new systems for example argo cd. That's something which fascinates me right now. It takes the concept of a pipeline like new level. And you have workflows. You have programmable. Api which is the communities in this control plane where you define these custom resource and then things happen. All these relationships emerged between them events. Orsi mess like another big big thing which maybe not as popular these days. I don't know. I'm not too into it but i keep hearing. It's it keeps coming up but there were happening so many c. cb systems that appeared in the last five years which seemed to have like exploded recently. Those drones theodora circle. Ci there was actions which was to see eye to begin with but it became on overtime. And all these other systems. I mean jenkins. I think that's came off. The cruise control are remember. We switched to jenkins that's l. max. So we reflected are pipelines use jenkins later on interesting so there was like this transition and now we're like in the era of. I think it's almost like the third one to the cloud one where we have so many projects. I'm not sure whether you've looked recently. The landscape of the cnc of landscape or you have all those projects there so much things there and econ even keep up with all the updates. That's how many there are never mind. Try them it's impossible. There's not enough. You know days in the week they using week weekend hours. So i'm wondering how did the cloud native landscape shape. Your ideas of continues. Delivery was an impact of that. Or was that happening in parallel. What influence if any do you feel coming from there. I think that the gestation of the cloud was parallel with starting points of continuous delivery. So we we published that book in two thousand and ten and that kind of put a name on his practices. I suppose know people. These days talking about continuous delivery continuous integration continuously. And all these little ideas. I think we helped to popularize that through book but we were doing it for several years before that and certainly nearly dies. Declined wasn't iran so all of the projects that continuously began with client projects. I think that the cloud makes some of the continuously rethinking more obvious. I mean you'd be absolutely insane to be an organization like amazon. Google and to manually configure service. It's such a bizarre idea it's just laughable. You couldn't do that. You're going to night this unless you are crazy and so ideas like infrastructures. Just seem obvious in mclean. And they didn't always seem obvious to. The people people thought we was strange when we started automating most things and making asa this in data scientists in more repeatable reliable. Does that kanu stuff. If i'm honest. I don't think that the cloud had a huge impact on the kinds of projects that i was working on during that time. Certainly up until after the continuously revolt came. Of course like everybody else has an impact on me now. In the way that i think about these things i advise. My clients had to approach that solving problems. I am i suppose an old soul developer. My formative years in software development probably predated the cloud. The cloud is obviously a good thing. Gives us lots of opportunities. It commodities compute but to my mind is not fundamentally defining thing so he says any changes some of the dimensions of design out karabat out fake bat designs. One of the things that seems to me that changes is the economics of the design from architectural going to view in the old days when we were doing stuff in aaron data centers probably more worried about managing stories custodians expensive and that's closet become commodities that ends the price per buys story. Just just drop through the floor with the introduction of moore's law and the introduction plan by service the big difference for the cladding is the unit of cost these and compute as certainly. If you stop thinking about service things so that ought to change the way in which we apply design thinking we you know for example. Why bother normalizing deitz or anymore. Why not just shoddy eggs and make everything sample to optimize. The compete soccer. You could do that. You have processes soaking dice. Just allocating the magazine away. So there will paralyze -able and if he is going to be interesting as things the easy access to be able to spin up some results of compute resources storage results or whatever else. He's fantastic and the ever. Rising of the baugh of abstraction but decline services ad is kind of interesting and if he was much more to come as one of the things that you were talking about the continuous integration continuous delivery tooling. All i don't think there i think there's more to do. I would like to see more opinionated on. Let's see tooling but just get you bang. Gabay diplomat pipeline. If i follow the rules he's just get into run. My unit tests from mike successful deploy instant option. That's doable. It seems to me we could do that. On hoping to see the continuous delivery cloud vendors. Do more of that kind of thing. The more opinionated one of my favorite technologies we were talking about taking your own is great for build systems in the jobless by one of the things i always loved about. Grindal is that. If you don't care if you are willing to buy into its model you can write your builds. Fifteen one can just say on doing job. Compiler joff run the tests. It will do all of those things for all of those things for you but if you want to a ride on us any behavior you can do that too. It's all programming. Language built on top of this well-designed demand model for builds. He's greg laurie. Lee's like opinionated software all like opinionated software says doing ace. And if you don't want that if you really quickly let's see more tools like goes. I think there's a tragedy of the commons kind of thing goes on a little bit is if everybody has a choice. Everybody's rediscovering everything from scratch. I think we'll announce build a little bit more things that the cloud is one of those things that he's doing that in context he's not doing enough to mine. Tasteful build systems so i am currently in the middle for a piece of work on working on to demonstrate to build deployment pipelines building little sample application using get of actions. He's all right. He's nice quite like it actions. It's okay but it's too fiddly. I'm fighting. We've tried to get my docu. Images communicate with each of us can remind except incessantly causing some religious. It's not really interested in that. Once a may just works. I want to do something. That's really interesting. Because i have seen so these trends having emerging in i think bill packs came closest to that where it would automatically detect your application and would know what to do. What is the build staff. What he's the ronstadt. What is the package step. So it had like this stuff like like building. Roku were the ones that made popular cough andrea on the enterprise version of fat. I know that there is like other. Newcomers render is one of them. Fly believe it's tries to do something similar. The point being. There's some good concepts. But i don't think they're standardized the one concept that was able to be standardized was was the carbonate api and it's amazing because it's unified api and you can have almost anything by the same api do you want for. Example a vm. While you programming in the same. Api spins up vm. Do you want to sequel instance somewhere and some cloud is the same. Api his arbitrage starting. Some really really clever things. There's even like a control plane which controls all the crew netease deployments all dna your cb n. All things so i think is fascinating. Could we have something similar for cic And like the pipeline. This concept the line. I think we should. But i don't think there's any one clear winner as to how to is just the animal rarely and that's okay. I mean tacked on. Cb that's trying to do something it's using the same communities api to declare your pipelines in your inputs in your outputs and how that works but you're right is still fiddly. It's almost like wouldn't even next building blocks. And i think this is something happened with the cloud you had. This fixed computes before which cap acts you'd bought hardaway invested bassett's. You know you spend the money so you have to use it. But it was very difficult to increase or very slow to increase. Then the cloud came and you could have like infinite capacity. Do you want a thousand two minutes later. You have them. Do you want no pet two bites off. Ssd storage you had it. And then storage was an issue anymore but it was difficult to scale down to zero. And that's where service came. Several is like you can have an infinite capacity that you run for milliseconds and then he spins down again and that's like a very interesting take but you're right. How'd you declare the pipeline or thing that controls all of these things that need to happen because shipping the code out there just part of it you have tests as you mentioned you have the bills you have. The dependencies need to resolve and that pipeline would be really big if you had to imagine it. It'd be massive. How could you declare it. And i think there's a lot of various pipelines. There is a be honest parts of wound complaining and being a grumpy old man about this is people to take my opinion. Okay same as everyone else. But one of the things that i wish people had picked up from the continuous delivery book that they did was the book at lines like patton full deployment pipeline knees. Jazz annoy each roads. Equal amounts of that book. I started off writing the beginnings of the pipeline bits. He contributed onto but when already pipeline base. What i meant is that i think this is the starting point for pipeline. So yeah absolutely very from there. But i think it's a bit like patents. So i think that he wanted to write software. What do you want well. You won't fast feedback during the development phase to confirm that the kind that you're writing the code that you think it is and then you want to be able to check that that code works is a system is deployable is configured correctly dilemmas value to customers. And so there's a separate different focus of testing that you need to establish that and then they might be other things are optional. But maybe performance testing security whenever. And so you could imagine so my minimum deployment pipeline. He's pretty you start off with that. Commit sage week if you fast feedback the search. Your coding standards runs unit tests. If it succeeds it builds a release candidate that release candidates deployable thing you employ into an acceptance test environment you're on a bunch of beatty soil acceptance tests against it to check this deployed correctly works correctly. Those what users wanted to do. And then you can deploy into production. Could it's deployable. That's my minimum deployment. Partly i would pay. Money would pay my own money to be able to have that the push of a button for a java project or a project or they see shop on whatever it was and i can see no reason you fats. I am bill. That's built that internally in organizations in the past. I must confess when i started my own business. What if myself by ambition was to earn enough money to pay me to have enough time to write some codes to open source model. Likely ends of many but didn't have enough time. I think. I think that worked out really well because what you did manage to do. We spend a bit more time on those videos that alluded to in the past. And that's actually how i came across like. Oh they farley. I've heard that name continues delivery. Okay i've heard of that book. I haven't read it but i've heard of that book and now i know have to read it based on what you said are some very bored information there which i need to get so. That's the first step the second step as you were able to capture some concepts in very simple terms in very good terms and these concepts to the test of time so that's out there that super valuable will continue being valuable for many years to come. I'm sure of it. If someone's listening to is and is wants to do this. That'll be really interesting. What would get actions pipeline look like for example that resembles days ideal pipeline and thinking. Your videos even have like. That's graphic keeps coming up. Do you have specific course or book. That talks more pipeline. I do so the continuous delivery book that we've been discussing talks in broad principles about continuous delivery and kind of the core of the book. It's not all the books of acts. I have another book. That was released this year on lean pub which is more of a focused manual on how to create deployment pipelines and and these patents describing. Really i suppose so. What are the key stages. As i see them. And what should those be doing is a patent so you would expect it to evolve over the time into morph into different shapes. You take parallel but there also seems to me some fundamental things. Is that you fast feedback. On the technical quality of your work is development saying and then you need confidence to know that your softwares releasable and the latter involves tests the more expensive to run so you need to think about this machine parallel computing algorithm. If you like so that you can kind of trade off getting fast feedback and then moving ahead in confidence that you'll likely to get good feedback from my to say so. Thinking in those terms helps you model. I think that's a good patent. And i would make that the starting point. It's almost like a template for pipelines. Yes there was a template that that captured these important elements that need to be present and then from that. It's almost like an ifc and you have a specific implementation which is for maybe specific ci and then you have variations so that's implementation in whichever cna's yes. I'm the rookie stages. The all would expect isis. Many complexity would probably want our allies in grow to get fast feedback. What people took. I think from biagio. Continuous delivery was when people think plans. I think what most people probably interpret that to mean. He's basically a build scripts that can deploy stuff at the end and he's much more this mall to it to the muddle. The that in my mind this is one of the things that can be definite. Maximum unusually not definitely bad things. But in this case can be. I invented the term deployment pipelines to lock him. Be definitive about what i meant. When i said deployment on does from commit to releasable That's this job. If at the end of the deployment pipeline. You've got more work to do. It's not finished it's not deployment pipeline this. The objectivity goto commutes released latte. Calm doesn't mean you have to necessarily push the thing into production you that's depends on the basis that makes saints or not make sense to go frequently. But you don't have to. But i think yourself there's always releasable. Status is the way that i tend to describe continuous delivery the deployment pipelines the thing that determines release ability. So that's trying to get to and if you think you man now so what does that take well on your system but as a minimum you want to know that the software works those what you think. He doesn't developer and is deployable and does what uses an absolute minimum. You most want to answer those questions in some way before he deployed into production. So that's my minimum starting point. That's where i would start my template from and then you could optionally plugging bits. That would do performance testing host. Where you put your performances so positive vase israeli to address the problem of how you get organizations to stop buying into this and what you wanna do is that you wanna make it really easy to do the right things or what you think of the right things and possible to do the things that says. That's my approach. And so i would like it to be absolutely trivial. Simple that if you're willing to accept some small constraints on the way that you organized. You'll code then i will be able to build it for you. Deploy for you run all of the unit tests because you put them in the right place and then once deployed. I'll be able to run all of the acceptance tests because you put them in a different place and if all of those past are going to give you something that you could define production and that's pretty trivial and doesn't really constraint. You very much. All you're asking is tell us what you want to build a full your bills fifteen here. That's fine build the piece that he wants. But tell us why the tests and we'll report into and now as developed get my templates. Stop building project against the templates and multiple pipeline. Just sucks functioning. Instead at the moment we all of the technologies. i've tried so far. I pretty much have to go through exercise every time to set something up. This absurd is brought to you by our friends at square building applications square. If you haven't yet in need to check out their api explore it's an interactive interface. You can use to build view and send. Heb request they call square api's api or let's you test. Requests using actual sandbox or production. Resources insider accounts at his customers orders and calico. Jacks you can use the apex or depopulate sandbox or production. Resources in your account then you could interact with those new resources inside the seller dashboard for example if us eight explore to create a customer production four sandbox environment the customers displayed in the prussian or sandbox dashboard. This toll is so powerful and will likely become your best friend. When interacting with testing or playing with your applications inside square links to the docks can explore and the developer account sign up page or had to develop enough square dot com slash explore slash square. The jump right in again. Six release in the show notes or had developed a square dot com slash explore slash square to play right. Now okay. let's do this. My suction is that the pipeline that we used to push change dot com updates. Out is wrong so my sumptious wrong this pipeline as i would like to tell me what your thoughts are on pipeline the pipeline. Whenever there's a commits to the wall street it pulls down the code. Eight runs a built. It's by the way it's an airline based projects looks surveys project so it has to fetch some dependencies compile the code so that's the first step and then he fans out into two other steps. One of the steps is to compile all the assets and these are the static files the css java script. All those things and the other one is to run the tests. The tests are mostly unit tests but also some integration tests because it does he's database. You know so. He's like the some hundreds of tests it doesn't take too long to run but A few minutes later it gets to the last stage if both stages passed it fanzine. So this this small outs and fannin and the last one is to build the artifact that is deployable. I mean this case a container image. All those things put together. It's takes Maybe up to ten minutes to run. It can be a bit slow but we won't get into that. The point is the pipeline ends at publishing this artifacts to a repository and this is an artifact repository in production. We have we receive notifications. Oh there's an artifact and the production system in this case is netease. It knows how to pull the latest version down now to blue-green deploy and their checks which make sure that the new version actually works. It connects database. The health chicks poss- all those things poss and then he gets automatically promoted to be the new version. Always happens within fifteen minutes A lot of it is just like slow workers. Anyways is a lot of free infrastructure there Especially on the bill side but within ten fifty minutes every commit goes out into production. What are your thoughts about this pipeline. I'm assuming it's the wrong one based on your description. I think all of the things that he said. I can't be too critical of it. Because he's working on nothing if not practice let me critique it nevertheless yes please so i think what you said. A few implications of what he said is as a developer. I don't know on ready to move on something near until after about ten minutes. So you've run all of your tests. That seems a little bit. Slow to me. I suppose it depends. It'd be complemented the cody's and paul the reason why slow. He's that conflicting different kinds of tests. So the reason why deployment pipelines deployment pipeline is weird and. It's all my faults. On the software competes in hud. And what this reminded me of went on came up with the idea was instruction pipeline lining in pentium processes. Nice i applaud client. That mean a straight line adult me. Well i mean he's an instruction five point and instruction pipeline and the painting process was a branch prediction. Algorithm added pointed which he comes to a branching. the code pentium process. That will stop three threads of execution three processes intending. It will salt evaluate in the statements in the condition that you interesting and it will also in parallel executing what happens if that conditions true and what happens if that conditions false and then once it's finished evaluates in the condition it will discard the compensation that wasn't useful so it's my progress. It's my progress in parallel. With roy to carrying out the conditional at the points at which i develop a commit site. Change my recommendation for working is that you sit and you wait for the results of the tests and at that point one looking for is a high level of confidence that if all of those tests class in the commits stage that everything else is going to be fine if my test pass on get a move on and start working on something you with about eighty percent confidence that i sent to the time over. The rest of the test is going to be kind now. Can afford to run mall. Slower more complicated tesco's on making progress in parallel with executing those tests and eighty percent of the time rebecca. All of those are still gonna pass high confidence because during the file. Fast thing testing things. So i'm going to run very fast. Very efficient of tests. In the i i didn't commit stage. It's going to be focused on really technical evaluation of what we're doing. Then i'm looking for the deployability of that. So one of the things that you said was the first time that you actually deploy the software is in production. Yes it goes straight into production. Yes yet so. How often is that a problem does. Does he avocados the problem. Does he always. We're always works then. Khan critique for other kinds of software though i wanna test the deployment of the system test that work because he changes over time if you introduce a new service or something that's different. You gotta be evolving over time. And so i'd like to evaluate those kinds of things. I'd like to be able to test the configuration of the system. How does it work you you know increasing the threat level or whatever else it might be those sorts of things too so i guess partly it depends on the consequence of things going wrong. Fine you take that these days on my living as a consultant advising usually large companies on improve their software engineering practices and one of the complaints. That i worked with siemens healthcare so they building machines that can kill you wrong these medical devices in hospitals and so there are chances that you don't want to take that kind of software so you want to be more thorough in your approach to evaluating those kinds of systems that would further assistance. Probably does it does vary so i must say alcon really critique your your perjury while because he sounds very good i mean it's light years ahead of probably whatever average means industry talking to you. This was really good because even talking to you about how it works. I realized why certain layers are so slow. Why does take fifty minutes and you saw the tests. The tests run. Maybe fifteen seconds. The test already fast. But it's all the caches of tendencies of putting things down running updates of compiling things when we run this guy there's a queue so your jobs may be cute for maybe thirty seconds or a minute and you have multiple jobs you have containers you have to pull down images that may or may not be on the node or on the host where they run and all those things like the cache misses can mean thirty forty five seconds which makes him. Things is not a lot but they add up because you have so many layers. What is the impact of something not working well. When we deployed to production the reason why slightly slower is because the first thing that we do. Is we back up the database before running the migration so there's a full database backup every single time a new version starts we back up all the assets to s. three. So if we lose everything that's okay. We can restore the whole thing in thirty minutes and in front of the app. It's a monolith by the way and we didn't have time to discuss about micro services and malo this another time. I'm sure is that we have seen on that. I know you do. We will definitely discuss that name in front of the website. There's a cdn which serves all the content cashed so is the origin is down if the app is down. That's okay. everything is cashed worldwide. So we serve the cash content so the impact on an users is none. I mean they see the old content but it doesn't go down so the time is always one hundred percent because he's never down right it's disres- across the whole world again and all that there's like a complexity the system which makes certain things slow but anyways i mean i i'd love to talk more about this but we're running out of time. I mean it just shows how much we have to talk about. I would really like to talk about your youtube channel next. So what made you start your youtube channel by the way For those that don't know about this. Amazing is my favorite youtube channel. Right now is called. Continuous delivery aids. They've sneezed you channel and week on week every wednesday. He publishes a new video. It's one of the best videos tech. They've seen their short since seventeen minutes eighteen minutes. But there's so much information there are highly recommend. You check it out so they've what made you start this each channel. The simple answer is it was corona virus. Finally there's a positive so so it's something kind of handing the back of my mind for a long time. I am approaching the end of my career. I've done a lot of interesting things on opinionated as you can probably tell from conversation about software and i think that i think that the teams that i've worked on a fans some some things worth spreading and with hearing at least you can dismiss them. You can disagree with them. That's absolutely fine. But i think when on being grandiose which i sometimes been grandiose i think that we on the verge of discovering what engineering for software might really need that as in the same sense as elon. Musk slowing star ships in texas. You know it's it's experimental it's about learning discovery and try now ideas and focusing on on skills around that kind of thing. I think if people just did that than they would find a dramatic mind. Changing experience training improvements in the way in which their experience of building and delivering software. You genuinely bill. After faster doing these techniques. I think so. Sometimes i air on this on the side of being too prescriptive about some of these things possibly but i want to start talking about things and i'm being been talking at conferences for some years working as a consultant for some years helping people to do this kind of thing and i am the back of my mind. Be nice to supply with a youtube channel on. Dight corona virus happen were in lockdown and at the time was traveling around the world constantly as a consultant and that kind of fell off a cliff. I was at high enough. A wow what we're going to do and so incentivizing software. We should addition to build the system that we just described instead of doing that while adid was assaulted youtube channel and that stain fascinating engaging delightful experience on the whole sometimes the comments and not quite delightful but usually they all mostly lovely and often a fantastic time. I think it helps. Keep me my wife and my son signing than we would have been otherwise through the process. We have released a video every week at seven pm on wednesday since the start of the pandemic and we have made sloan yet. Now i have to thank you again again. I find myself. Thank you so much because those videos there were like a breath of fresh air. There's like so many videos. Obviously on youtube is massive. Is like i think for me at least in for our families like the new tv. Will we use each way more than anything else netflix. 'cause their apple tvs that but by far and I don't know how it happened hiking. Cross your videos but there were so refreshing. Their simple there were to the point. And it's not just me if you look at the comments the more positive ones. That's what the majority saying this way. You capture these principles and the way convey them is so good and is like so simple. It's like yeah it makes sense like at the end of the video. Like oh i want to try this out like it just makes you think and i'm sure that some of the information that you convey it will not hit home until a few months later maybe in a few years later there's like it's simple but there's so much there and my favorite one you keep mentioning elon mosque the way if you know him or someone that knows him is listening. I really want to interview him. Because i think he's the embodiment of shipping it. He's legit shipping the human race to a new level. Right i mean i. I'm so fascinated by him. So my favorite video is the space x and software engineering. How to learn on your youtube channel. Blink will be in the show notes by the way now. I try to limit myself to three. This was my top. The other one is how to build quality software fast that shift yesterday. I mean if you're paying attention their videos that you're just publishing which are top. So they're getting better in my mind's glycemic better than feature branching out love to talk to just about this. I'm a big believer. Single branch push straighten into main mazda. Hover you wanna call it out. I would recommend main the main branch if us gets power. T if you something else that's okay too as long as you have single branch. You continuously integrate you continues to deliver. That's the place that you want to be in because you're trying to learn and you will be wrong even when you think you're right so better think you're wrong right and starts thinking that you're wrong and it will be good. Trust not me. Trust dave because that's what he's saying. Okay translate when try. Yeah that's the first one. And what's wrong with the state of devops. That's the one that i wanted to watch again because that's another very good video. We don't have time to talk about the specifics but if anything is almost like i feel like we should have another interview. We're just finishing this on. So i'm not sure how that's going to work but i'll definitely liked to get together again. Maybe this year and if not next is fine as well to have another like do another and see how he's going right. Now you had like fifty three thousand subscribers or fifty four thousand. That was yesterday by the way it changes day today. So let's see how many subscribers will have next time. But when they started watching him like five thousand six thousand and then just exploded so yeah. The response has been positive. I hope you're pleased with it. Because i'm very pleased with this youtube channel and thank the pandemic that weird thing to say. But it's the truth if it wasn't for it we would never had this youtube channel. Yeah well it doesn't compensate for the bad thing but it's been a lot of fun and a lot of pleasure out of making the videos but also engaging engaging in the comments and talking to people about ideas which is fantastic so that any of us in day. I'm interested in your selection. They weren't the ones that i expected to be only site. They're not the most popular ones on the channel. Some of the ones that you've mentioned but the island always slightly disappointed by the type of the spice video. I thought that was a good video. I liked that one based on what those saying earlier. I was saying that some of the things that you share. I don't think people realize how valuable they are. Until maybe few months or even years later. And i mean i think it depends on experience. It depends on what you value. But i see. Like for example spe spacex is such an important thing tesla such an important thing not the things that they do. It's how they approach it how they're able to build i mean that's what fascinates me i know it fascinates you too because you mentioned in the videos. Which are your favorite videos last week. That was a good one how to build. No that's this week's what which one was last week's i'll just make always last week's see okay. I see no i. There are some time prior to the only ones. I think there was some good ideas in the ones. But my editing skills have improved significantly and my has improved a bit. It's still not very professional but it's good enough now it's going to. He's not gonna make people run away screaming a lot to space. X one the micro services video. In which i'll talk about mine. Kriton problem with moncur services is a good video. I was pleased with the last week. Video which was better than feature branching which is just talking in information on trying not to do in an emotional way trying to do it just by sunny information and just thinking about you know two pieces of information into places that are both being changed in copies they start off as companies will diverge and the long time they will diverge in the great divergence therefore the mole worked. Put them back together not incontrovertibly true and so continuous integration continuously rate is about trying to minimize that on shrink back tom down so that yo- taking race with try and use so there's ideas like that which i enjoy. I enjoy trying to find a simple way of describing sometimes complex ideas. I think that's a very good thole to end on because a very profound one. I think people need to think about that The simplicity in complexity. I think everybody should strive to look for martin thompson. I think he was a bit of an inspiration there as well. So keep improving be wrong being wrong and maybe you'll be right who knows. Nobody knows. check out. David's youtube channel. It's really go. it'll be worth your time. Trust me and they've it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much making the time. And i'm looking forward to the next one. Thank you thank you very much fun. That's it for this episode of ship. It thank you for tuning in. We have a bunch of tasks for developers change log that you should check out. Subscribe to the master feet at change. Log dot com for slash foster to get everything shifts. I want to personally invite you to join your fellow. Change loggers change the com for slash community. It's free join in state leading on the other hand will cost you some happiness credits. Come hang with us and slack there knowing posters. Everyone is welcome huge. Thanks kantor partners fastly launch darkly an note also thanks to break master cylinder for making all our awesome beats. That's it for this week. See you next week.

martin deitz gerhard zoo arkley Puget sound university of puge max plank martin thompson elon musk iran kubiak lynnette farley naidoo schering spacex khanna jenkins united changes Sartre elon
#227: New York Times Bestselling Author John Del Vechicco, Army Veteran, Historian, Hiker

Borne the Battle

1:25:23 hr | 8 months ago

#227: New York Times Bestselling Author John Del Vechicco, Army Veteran, Historian, Hiker

"Let's get it monday. January twenty fifth twenty twenty one borne. The battle brought to you by the department of veterans affairs. Podcast that focuses on inspiring veteran stories and puts a highly unimportant resources office and benefits for our veterans. I'm your host core veteran tenor iskra. We'll be at a great week outside of podcast land. I am still on leave. Not a bad time to do it as we are in transition here at the. Va as well as the rest of the government as they depart. I wanna thank secretary wilkie and his staffer the time the dedicated to this department and we will welcome the new staff that will fulfill these very important roles. once they are confirmed. As this week we will have an acting secretary. That should be announced by the time. This episode drops. I just don't have the name on me at the time of this recording. It is still january. Which means our desert storm. Thirty series is still ongoing for the entire month blogs. Va dot gov is celebrating the stories. Those that served in desert storm and desert shield from our veteran of the day posts. Two stories about the origin of the chocolate chip uniform to what the coasties were doing to our last podcast. With marine corps veterans scott stump. All month we are celebrating those that served in the decisive conflict that ousted the saddam hussein regime occupation of kuwait. When you get a chance just type in desert storm in the search bar or go to blogs dot v. a. dot gov ford slash advantage ford slash thirty the number thirty hyphen years hyphen desert. Ivan storm matter of fact interview with colin powell was just released where he talked about his conversations with general schwartzkopf and about the overall strategy. They planned and executed. We received about five ratings this week as well as one review. This comes from thunder six with an exclamation point love. That says five stars. My new favorite podcasts. I highly encourage all in. Subscribe to this podcast. I retired from the army in two thousand eleven and in this age of polarized culture news and other media i was struggling against the negativity of it. All born the battle has created a great place to rejoin tribe of the military the veteran stories of struggles and success. Even just reminiscent about deployments has become a great way to reconnect with my positive service experiences. A recommend all of us to turn off. The i recommend all vets turn off the news and listen to this podcast. Thanks tanner outstanding job thunder. Six this is quite possibly the best review that i've received about this podcast so far. What you described this podcast. As is what i've strived to make it and i'm glad that it resonates in that way with you. You're right in the current landscape of polarized everything. I wanted to see if we hear on this. Podcast can build something positive based on the values all veterans. Have in common and try to help each other out in the process thunder six. I appreciate the feedback. And moreover i appreciate that you put that feedback back out into the world and if i could pin this as the as the review that this show strives to be every week i would if you agree with under six or even if you don't please consider smashing that subscribe button and leaving a rating and review on apple podcasts. And doing so you'll either be letting me know what you would like to see out of this podcast or helping. Push this podcast up. Higher algorithms giving more veterans the chance to catch the information provided not only in the interviews but in the benefits breakdown episodes and in the news releases as for news releases. During this time. The really isn't much other than that. Va and the minister of defense in israel are sharing best practices in veteran healthcare. However this episode will come after the inauguration so there may be more than a posted since this monologue recording. Maybe some key appointment announcements have already been made or not. Who knows either way you could find all the press releases. Va dot gov ford slash opie a ford slash press relle at p. r. e. s. s. r. e. l. All one word all right so. I sat down record. This week's guest right before the holiday season and this was the second interview with my new gear. New microphone new mixer so much like episode twenty two iconic sound like. I'm recording in a bathroom for that. I apologize and i don't think i have any more recordings like this. I think however you can hear our guest perfectly and that's the most important thing. Our guest is an army veteran. You was a combat correspondent during vietnam. And he's a professional author who has sold over one point. Four million copies of his books is best known for the thirteenth valley and in nineteen eighty two. It became a new york times bestseller. A national book award finalist and has been described as a literary cornerstone for the vietnam generation in addition to writing books as vietnam historian he writes about what he sees as misinformation about the vietnam war. And he's also an avid hiker and blogs about hiking over seventy his army veteran. john delvecchio. Enjoy i'm going to start recording since it seems like we. We have conquered technology today. Finally thank you man. Now we're going to get near writing career for a bit but before you're writing career before your post military career. You're more than the battle we always. We always go way back way back to that. First time that you knew that the military is going to be the next phase of your life. And i say that in that way because especially with your generation. It wasn't always voluntary for you. When was that for you. When did you know the military next phase of your life. my grandfather Was in the italian calvary going back to nineteen hundred awhile. So many came to this country in In one thousand nine hundred two so you know so. There is some experience there but for myself. Of course that's time. I graduate high school. Nineteen sixty five and ended up going to college. I i was thinking. I was going to go into the military. I was fourth of four children. My brother and two sisters for in college. It's time which meant that. It was a there was a real financial struggle as far as being able to keep up for my father to sure to keep up with all these Tuition payments even though a map. You look at tuition payments today. Compared tuition payments. Then you know it looks like it has looks like a drop in the bucket ishbel. What what was it. Then at that point. Roughly when i started in September sixty five. It was thirty two hundred dollars a year is that might that might be four or five books. Now yeah it was You know it was just bell the last year of my daughters education at the university of puget sound. Okay no well. I'm in washington. I'm a native washington state. Okay all right that. I have a son and daughter-in-law two grandchildren up in seashore. Woolier if you that area. Yeah her tuition. Last year. i think was forty two thousand and she graduated in two thousand and seven. So i think knows what it is. Now yeah i. I'm sure other costa sixty thousand a year now. It's just incredible. How anyway going back sixty five. I told my father. I was going in. The military would didn't make any sense for me to Go into to be going to school. My father It's a very organized person. A basically very gentle a great personality and very seldom asked us to do anything for him You know he leaped in leading by example. And so you know there was not a lot of the Actually it was very little harsh discipline in household and It was more matter that you wanted to follow him because because just believed in So and it was one of the few things that he asked me to do. He said look. I want you to start college. And if it does not work out you can always go into the military so that was in nineteen sixty five. The reason why i started and i went to lafayette college in pennsylvania. By the time you got in to maybe sixty seven sixty seven and then into sixty eight things were things. Were coming apart throughout the country. I i had a lot of questions about what was going on. You know really probably wasn't until sixty eight that began watching what was going on In vietnam in the news The differences Also a lot of Riots going on at that time. That was kind of very parallel to. Its some of the things going on today. Sure it was a very formative time. I very much so and a lot of the things that are going on today came out of that time but anyway got into the spring of sixty nine probably i think it was march so Maybe three months before. I graduate And it's called a permanent draft fiscal and remember saying to them. Well no one would. I expect to be drafted And they told me well riot graduation so at that point it was actually in some ways a relief. It meant that. I didn't have to look for a job. Do any Interviewing with companies It was there was a certain freedom knowing that uncle. Sam had a job for me. Now i didn't get my draft notice until november fourth sixty nine so there's this entire summer where i'm waiting for wondering gonna be called up this time. You had the the draft lottery by birthday. Go into effect although it really didn't affect me because i was already in that system and argue is going to be called up But there's zuri kind of weird time. I spent most of that summer Building ski lodge vermont. Finally in late september. You know this is the time as a student to go back to school and We're pretty much finished. As far as i could get the as far as what i could do in construction at that time with the ski lodge and i'm ready to go back and do something and i still haven't been called up and i'm gonna just drop back to lafayette for a minute i had in several classes professors. That were extremely antiwar. They were so antiwar they announced at the beginning of the semester. We're not going to teach this class. You can only learn things on your own. You can't learn anything by me teaching you. Therefore this is open to class is open to discussion and they did nothing. What's yes yes and in that class and there are a couple of them this right and in those classes they did nothing except talk about antiwar stuff which i found to be a major turnoff because okay. I didn't know a hell a lot. About what was going on in southeast asia. But i knew a lot more than did and i knew that these people are idiots and this was this was so offensive and also not being a particularly bright student at the time and realizing that i should withdrawn from the classes. I just stopped going and End up flunking those classes. Because i stopped going into withdraw so all those things had has some bearing but but the main part of the bearing is that it made me want to know what was going on southeast seizure made me want to learn it inside and out to knows you're there i wasn't getting it there and what i've seen in the media. was I thought very skewed. I had friends who Or there ahead College classmates with brothers. in vietnam. So we're getting a lot of stories that were very different from what we're seeing in the media and yeah i wanted to know so actually in september sixty eight. I started applying for jobs to Go to vietnam as journalists Now i didn't have a background in journalism. But that your major did you have any. My major was psychology. What happened with the journalism was. I decided to apply i wanted to go to southeast. Asia wasn't being drafted. I wanted to know what was going on and I ended up applying to new york times Late in october. I got a letter asking me to come in for an interview. And by the time i was able to get back to them. I received my draft notice on november fourth So through all that out. That's pretty amazing that you had no background in journalism college with a different type of degree and the new york. Times like yeah. We'll take you want us journalists. Well it wasn't so much taking me on but they but they were willing to do me. Sure sure even get to that point. It's very very interesting. All these things kind of roll together got my draft notice on november fourth and was inducted and in that pre basic training period They put your sword this battery of tests and all these other things and i came out grade on. They wanted to send me to a language school in very other things like that. And i didn't want to do that and i ask them. Do you have anything in journalism and said well. Yes we do. You have to sign him for third year. I said that sounds fine with me. And i signed up for the third year became regular army and after basic training sent to devos the defense information school outstanding which turned out to be the best. All i ever went to and still to this day. The best school. I've ever been the best program the The professors were outstanding. Of course there was certain force that they had You know we were in school eight hours a day expected saudi about four hours tonight yet we were still expected to guard Various military functions and be assaulted. Yeah but it was such an outstanding school. I now i'm i'm also influenced alum myself. I think and i've i've been to universities in help other syracuse arizona state and top journalism schools. I think didn't photos from a technical aspect of how to tell a story. Is the best school that you could Dod it's it's the but they tell you that that you know the very technical aspects. I think university was really good in the in the why. Why tell the story or certain mental aspects of storytime. But i think from a technical aspect infos was probably the best school. Well yes actually in sixty nine. Sixty nine seventy seventy. I'll have to be training They had the tation being the second best. Apply journalism course in the country. Also exactly as you're saying it was applied journalism. It wasn't theory of journalism or anything like that bursting. I credit Teaching how to right. So you were sent to vietnam as soon as you graduated infos or that year that first year. They wouldn't let me go. They wanted to send me to okinawa to starter newspaper over there. Oh and those who were army There was probably a it was either eight of us who are army and there were three of us. Three their chosen to go to vietnam. None of them wanted to go and at least two of us who really wanted to go had to get our congress men involved to get our orders change so we could go to vietnam so it was and we work through the sergeant major at school. He's yet. I mean if you wanna go. Is that strange. It was actually hard to go you. You actually had to force people to let you go. I was on a mission. I was on a mission to find out what this was all about. And when i got to john playstation In vietnam waiting. You have no idea where they're going to send you But he came in with a prompt infos. was assigned to stars and stripes In saigon and i was assigned to hundred first airborne. So so you're you're hundred i In seventy in vietnam now. I can't remember as his interviews over a year ago. But we you. They're the same time they'll die was. Dale was there earlier than i was there. I recall correctly thinkers there sixty seven sixty eight. Yeah dale good friend of mine. And as a matter of fact he he and his wife julia publish books now now. They're they're outstanding. An action game came highly recommended from him. So that was like absolutely off. Have a chat with with john here Similar to him. You were also awarded a bronze star with v off during your time in vietnam. Do you mind tracing that day for us. No not not at all. When i got to headquarters of the hundred and first they wanted me to take over what they call Little newspaper daily newspaper called the airborne dateline and they wanted me to take that over and for the first three weeks. I spent those weeks at headquarters dealing this newspaper. Which i just hated. I hated being there. It was a matter of recording Heya theon radio and writing stories up from their radio stories putting sheet and than mimeograph six thousand copies each night and i wouldn't talk to socialize with anybody and let the major no right away that this this isn't what i do and that went on for three weeks and they would barbecue every night up there. A headquarters was very very secure. And down and i wouldn't go to I you know as i was on a mission to find out what was going on. And i can't tell you why was on this mission right. I don't know what the was about me. But this was in my head that i had to learn this after three weeks. You know you've gotta come to our barbecue tonight. Going gonna repeat it to him. I'm not going to do that. Don i'll do everything that i that i need to to For this job and it will do it well but you know the snow and i'm here for and he said no. You gotta come. This is your last day here. I'm sending you down. I gate And so the next day i to i brigade. Did you go to that barbecue. Yes i did go to barbecue. And i did have a beer with him very good. By the next day. I was down. I are three made jer. Infantry units were first of the five of first second. Three to seventh. And second second i spent most of my time with units from second of the five of a second second most whiz second three to seven and i think i only went out once or twice with I i although some of the best pictures got came with for survival. I but anyway. I gotten pretty used to being an infantryman. I and a journalist photographer second real quick now. When i was a combat camera i would get into a unit it. There was a feeling out process with that unit. Or you're gonna fit your journalists. Do i take a man off my mission to bring a photographer. It was that. Was there a kind of a funeral process. Even in vietnam where they were just happy to have another person. Both both both are true. Happy to have another person and Early on particularly of feeling out process. I traveled with units many owns multiple times and towards the end of my tour I had units that. I commanders that request that it would come out with them not because i was a journalist but because i had so much experience in the field tune leaders ori and one particular company commander. They wanted me out there because they knew i knew the a oh and wanted to know my opinion on what was going on. Yeah we which. Would i mean when i think about that. It just amaze me. Because i wasn't attachment the best way to embed with a with a unit like that as just to do everything they do. And that's exactly what i did. And so on this particular time And is described in thirteen value although of course It's fictionalized there but Coming to honor trail We had had Action Day before in this area Or just off a ridge line coming down to a saddle and then going up to the Next next hill and As we came down of course we're in single file or were space on six to maybe at the most ten feet apart on moving very quietly and at the bottom of the saddle a ran into a red ball No it's what was high-speed trail And okay it was. It was coming out of one valley going across the The saddle ridge down to the next valley and there's a lot of activity on the trail larne blueprints and so we're crossing this one at a time. Fell in front of me stopped waiting for a signal to proceed forward and never ever received that signal or it didn't see it and so we sat and we waited and waited and while we're waiting a spies something down the red ball down to baltimore right and Down valley she sees a north of nays and then someone behind and their patrol beginning to come up. This red ball returns to me. Alerts me twenty sees judge on just hand signals I turn to the guy behind me. I had to kind of wake him up by throwing little stone. adam we're all kind of loaded. I could not see anything guy behind me. Couldn't see anything but feel who is in front of me. I could see. See these guys coming up. He opens up on them They immediately A number of them Opened up on him and on all of us. I guess assuming or at least in the area of us me and Jerry behind me on both. The opened up started firing on them not fill was hit in the foot and just kind of blew the front of of his foot off or not office smashed pieces. Yeah i did have Around go under my boot. i could feel it. I go under my boot and the earth while and And it was over so quickly. I mean I i think i went through forty rounds style to magazines and thirty eight rounds. 'cause this week at that time we never fill them up sure and And then very quickly you know people from guys who had crossed the red ball started coming back down guys behind his beginning. Coming down Route to check out quickly but immediately the medics were there and guys were sixteens And that was really the action. It was an action very quick and percent. I don't think i did anything that any infantryman wouldn't have done. I'm not sure that they would have gotten iran's sorry for it. I i don't know for sure. I think the Company commander maybe felt. Because who i was that i should be put in for that I'm not sure but it's you know. I look at it and i think to myself so many guys did so much more than i ever did. that It's I'm glad i have it. But it's not something. I usually bring up. Gotcha sounds like it was just a quick skirmish quite Is that i mean it. Sounds like the you've had more experience in the field than that wither other actions. That maybe weren't recognized that you witnessed that you're like that should have gotten abroad star for you but maybe for somebody else. There were a lot of other actions. Yeah and there were so many other people that were so much more disturbing than i was. No there's there's absolutely no doubt about it. I mean it was a fascinating time. I also as journalist an experienced this too you know. I had the tremendous other opportunities. I traveled with Aviation units once with the second and seventeenth cav with mid cap. Units into the villages in the fall of nineteen seventy northern port in vietnam got hit with a major typhoon Which just flooded so many of the villages. And so i got to go out with assisting these is assisting the humanitarian thing at very humanitarian got very close with a couple of interpreters and went to their homes of just an amazing experience and as i was on a mission to learn everything i could Toll some somewhere else unexplained. I sit this way for at least the first nine months there i had no fear and when i said that i thought about what i said. Afterwards i didn't mean it as though i was somehow brave or courageous It these things just never entered my mind. Fear fear never entered my mind at that time. 'cause coming home was not in the mind that no no not at all and it wasn't really wasn't until I think i became in so many ways to senior guy in my unit and an i had these Platoon company commanders. Asking me to come out with them Not as a journalist but as Someone who is experienced in the hall. And i think that's scared me more than anything else but starts pretty late my tour but we're getting a lot of In country transfers. They came from a number of different units at that time. When you get into a seventy seventy one almost all the combat action is software. Dmz and long lotion border dot com to maybe or dr. Oh and the rest of the country although there's there are some actions. It's not it's nothing like it is up. Along the dmz ethnic was north's Along the plateau. And hundred. And i was basically in the you know in the mountains that influx of soldiers that were not in combat units also introduced a lot of heroin users into the hundred and first things changed drastically in the last couple of months. I was there and that drastic. Change plus being a shorttimer plus being candidate in this In this position where people are asking my advice. I guess at that scared the hell out of me but you're more talia star to see your own mortality a little bit And that's probably what it was. Although i didn't think of it that way when that when the ammo dump blow i thought we were under attack and i was made the the only guy that reacted. That's why i was never. I was scared you. It's i mean. I reacted so quickly. I had my weapon my steel pot And i was in a trench. I think before anybody else even around john de i guess i can see that scary but where where are you going to school. You talked about Going to get to know your translators go into their homes. What's one thing about the vietnamese culture that you learned out there that maybe someone doesn't know about. This may sound a little strange. But i kind of looked at the vietnamese that i knew as the italian southeast asia. They're very close families very so much wag. Raw many were cast. Look people would talk about them Honoring their ancestors. I grew up after church every sunday. A we would go to the cemetery to the graves my grandparents on and so many of these things seem so very similar to me I just. I just felt that. I knew these people also as a as a soldier. I had a lot of respect for the enemy soldiers. Not for their cause shirt for what they were what they were doing what they were enduring. And how they operated while you were in give me either a best friend or your greatest mentor. my closest friend zehr and for For many years after abortion ass pass. Since i was my field partner. Marcus vladi. A mark jewelries in vietnam changed his name back to his biological father's name after service as biological father's name was leading so that that's the market's lead comes in But it but he was my field and we went out a number of operations. He'd been there a lot longer than i had been. He was pretty short while i was there. And he didn't wanna go out and too many of these operations But the one who really got me going introduced me to a lot of people far as greatest mentor window. And this comes after vietnam after announcing served with the seventy second field artillery group in germany Where we the group controlled one quarter of all the nuclear base land-based nuclear weapons in your okay. And so this is a very interesting time. Now we're at seventy one. Seventy two the Commander there at the time. Colonel harry brooks brennan a time when there's a lot of lot of agitation lot of the conflict in services are racially brooks just knew what to do in so many units. In germany there were a recalls the time race riots. But there's a lot of racial tension and under brooks we had we had done. The was very understaffed Suspect five i feel the slot as his race relations adviser wherever you might call it embedded but but really it was a. He led the whole thing. I just followed what he was doing. He later went on to become gotta star and then went on to become the first head of the army Equal opportunity office. Okay as a mentor. He was probably the person i learned the most about on race relations and and i feel indebted to him to this day but yes i think he was probably The el-ad i felt most mentor by erga. Virga now what are you. Did you get out john. I got seventy two. And actually i gotta have early against the military was in this reduction force and so i got out early on the agreement to spend six years in the national guard the initial coming back from vietnam. What was that experience like for. You did go the national guard and all that but what was like coming home to americana you know. We always here on my generation was. Here's a stories of it wasn't as welcoming as as what was leaking again. I had again probably kind of a different experience than a lot of people never did get Our state dinner that we're all told on again with this was a big thing supposedly when you got back from vietnam everybody this steak dinner and that was fake news learn. At least when i came back we went to a quick processing but I wasn't out processing because i had to because it was going to germany so i was really just coming in and get your next order in getting the next set of orders and flew to new york took a. I'd call my folks. Let them know what's going on there. We're gonna come and pick me up in new york interest. Don't bother as it was an important Took the limousine From the airport to where it was my hometown on stratford connecticut And was about maybe two quarters a mile walk from where they drop you off to my house so i just simply walked home walked in higher. But you never received Get off the bus in uniform or getting out of the airport in the uniform and hiding. I never had that experience Well i know a lot a lot of your generation did. I did have some nasty experiences. In france of so while i was in germany as a as a troop of course we have short hair and some very good friend of mine and myself We'd travel and on trip. We went to paris. I can remember being on shopping. Say eating at a cafe. We're having the time of our lives. So we're loving this sure and having people come by spit on us No so that was the way frisians felt about americans in one thousand nine hundred ninety one while some people claim that no one was ever spit on rome for san was never spit on in the united states but i was spit on in france and i know a lot of people were fit on here And if not and some who. Movie night we're spit on physically an awful lot of the spit on figuratively and i know the pendulum swung extremely the other way. When we came home from iraq and afghanistan. And i know that good you know. And i know that it was something that you guys never got but i think it was across the board so we did get that so i do wanna thank you for for rendering that cross that you and your whole generation are a really really. If there's anything that you can take away from that time just know the art. Our generations extremely grateful would best door because allowed us to enjoy a proper welcome home. So thank you good. It garage There's no thanks neither door necessary to. I mean an a as as americans. These are things we need to do for. Not just for the next generation of veterans but for the next generation and the following generations. After that absolutely now you your bio says you've sold one point four million books now. Did you dive right into writing books. After getting out or did you transition into something else i. How did writing became become profession for you. I you know. I started writing. Thirteen valley probably seventy two. I wrote a rough draft which was horrible and it wasn't going anyplace. I didn't really have an idea of what i was doing. Got my real estate license in connecticut. My father was a realtor and was gonna go to work for him. But it's like so. Many veterans says so many vietnam. Better inside i. I don't know what percentage could be. It's got to be at least half of the veterans. I know did not stay in their hometowns. But when an what i will call say did he self expatriation if not to another country within the united states and so i went to california and i lived in california for about seven and a half years during that time got my real estate license in connecticut. Didn't have any income. So when i got to california. I got my real estate license out there in between things always a lot of small construction jobs both here and in connecticut and in california but once i got my real estate license at the end of seventy four next door neighbor was marine corps. Cruder for the reo and he. And i get together. And he had more information about what was going on. South south vietnam southeast asia than i did at that time again looking at things began getting more and more information watching the news. Do this post watergate. So this was during the ford air. Yasha no support for vietnam publicly and what support was the certainly much less congress amongst public. And we're watching this late seventy four. He had gotten word somehow about veterans going back and we met with a group of saw. Its first meeting. Probably forty fifty Bid on bets on beginning to organize go back. Didn't learn till later that actually. Ross perot's behind this whole movement. He was going to put the money up for a while And a couple of meetings after that turned out there were nearly one hundred thousand. That's around the country willing to go back but a couple of things With that i was with was were told that we wouldn't be getting any weapons until we landed in south vietnam which made a lot of us nervous but the biggest thing was. Oh this wasn't going back to to visit like where were you. Sent your formative years. This was good to go back to fight this. Go back to keep south vietnam from falling to north vietnamese. Wow oh yeah. There was a big movement to that. Wow i did not know that it probably not very little this shaw civilians at this point. Yeah yeah just like contractor. It'd be a contractor thank She's contractors today although the contractor stay at a much better organized. Sure the sounds like this is the formative years of it could have been. Yeah and Would southie nam fell so quickly that this didn't come off dodgers on you know. And it's years later that it's after thirteenth is published. It i really learned what happened in south east asia. How that whole thing fell. What the north vietnamese did what the South asia going through with the soviets in the chinese were supplying the north. When you get into seventy four seventy four. Seventy five the soviets in chinese were supplying the north vietnamese at a level four hundred percent higher than their previous high which has happened at the recall correctly in a sixty seven leading up to sixty eight to ten offensive while at that same time. The us was Supporting the south vietnamese at a level. If i recall again. I may be often this figure. But as a level of one percent of the highest budget at hand for southeast asia while and so You know. The south seas became the for army against the north these rich army at south and we had to kind of pull back forces to the populated areas the northern nays were able to run A twelve inch gas pipeline foreign shaw while oil pipeline down. Cross the dmz through the ash valley. These are all areas that we we'd fought in and deny them the ability to do this all the way down almost song be city. It was that quarter that they were traveling back and forth with by seventy five using eighteen. Thousand military trucks transporting four hundred thousand troops and had five hundred. Soviet t fifty five tanks hundred and seventy five millimeter artillery pieces. This was a massive invasion of the south. And this what the south was putting up against. This is what the south fell two. And whenever you hear somebody say. The south fell to The viet cong to people clad in a black pajamas. I'm sorry it's just couldn't be a stupider statement and there are so many supposedly historians that seemed to have their information on the war on their data on the war stops in nineteen sixty eight again. We were supplying him so little. They had pullback their military. The arvin twenty-second vision of their three gauge. They had to use one brigade as a brigade to produce food for the other. Two brigades Yeah you can't. That was the thirteenth valley. Like an attempt to try to talk about that. Or what was the process like writing that. I book you kind of mentioned earlier much. More of this is in the second and third books okay. Because because i didn't i didn't know all dish of timers writing thirteen valley gotcha. Thirteen valley was written. Mainly i think this before written about one hundred. I during this time and what i knew about what was going on in the areas that we were protecting. I got a good feeling for this whole area so i was writing about the area. I was writing about the attacks. At that time would we were experiencing And i was not really writing about what happened afterwards a Sometimes i say this way. I was writing to set the record straight for. Were not realizing that. Who i was writing about was the probably the average american soldier in vietnam. Going back to the seventy sixty to sixty three on. I've heard from people all over the country and indeed in many parts of the world. A thirteen valley was published in france. In england in israel in the netherlands potion number different languages heard from people from all these countries and over and over again. Same story saying you know. Thank you for telling our story. You talked about that in a saw that in i watched the open road video about where we talked about the feedback that you got from thirteenth warrior Obviously it was a very successful book no in the days of of before email you got a bunch of letters to talk to me about those letters but it was amazing. It are the first set. Were almost all from veterans The second set was almost all from spouses. Mothers and fathers brothers and sisters of veterans mom the first set over and over again. Saying you know you're telling our story The second set so many of these people said my husband my son my brother whatever could not tell me about what he went through but he handed me your book unsaid. This is what it was like for me that was repeated hundreds and hundreds of times to get those letters over and over again just had to be an experience for us while it was stunning. It was shocking. It was so educational and it also introduced me some people that basically gave me a much deeper education on the war in south east asia. That's where he started learning about all this stuff and seventy three in seventy four and that's where it began learning all about it dot you one particular Veteran spend member years. There was back there from with state department are spoke fluent. Vietnamese lived for quite a while in the vietnamese community. filling bill lawry used by far the best historian on vietnam. The may not would vietnam and southeast asia. When i wrote thirteen valley. I had not anticipated writing a second book but After after i wrote it won the publishers are pushing me to do another one sherm and this success of this will keep going. Yeah exactly and and so they want me to one on the homecoming experience. Which is what carrying the home was all about. Okay went so. I started carrying me home shortly after and i was having trouble because Wanted to do story. Marines army will all the services plus southeast asians and so i had characters who were vietnamese and cambodian and i was having trouble jumping back and forth while i was writing and trying to do this in some sort of linear fashion. Sure i said you know what i'm gonna do. The cambodian story i. It's going to be the shortest one. And then i'll do the vietnamese story and the other stories and i'm going to take these sections and i'm just gonna take it like a like a deck of cards shuffled together and see where it goes. Well never did get to that point as it began working on cambodia. I spent five years. Researching cambodia writing about cambodia interviewing refugees reading Other interviews of refugees A source interviews on it was in some ways the most depressing period and the most enlightening of my life Allow a one of the common expression in the sixties and seventies. Was there snow such things. There's no such thing as good and evil. There's only shades of gray. Made her that or not. But that was very common at that time. And i guess. I probably subscribe to a taw to some extent but it was on a reading and researching and interviewing Cambodians and people who served in cambodia That i came away from that experience. Absolutely believing that there is such thing as evil i can only imagine. I spent ten twelve hours a day Working on this. And then i would come in at night and i would watch the silliest I've been watch sitcoms on tv and laugh my head off. Try to lighten the mood up a little bit after reading about the karma rusia. You know it was that whole that whole thing. It was a matter of enlightened. The mood up was matter of trying to maintain your sanity while what happened in the writing was i got into this An all of a sudden the section which i was expecting to be about sixty pages about this Cymru soldier this manuscript. Got to the point about three hundred pages and ongoing home. I got now what do i do. And so i talked to my editor at bantam at this time. peter And peter came to the house and sat down and much quicker reader than i am but he sat down and read the first half era the entire manuscript the cambodian portion and he just turned to me. Must spend four hours doing it and at four hours This is your story. They should finish. This is it goes back to the other one later. And so that's how For the sake of all living things came about and was see So that was the second book and that that also did very well in my mind. That's the best of all my books. Gotcha it's a very difficult book to reach for many people because there's so much torture that goes on so it's involved in an yet when i look at it i didn't include a quarter. Maybe not even a fifth of the different kinds of tortures that i read about mom. That's how horrible that whole experience was ma. The book was picked up by the chicago police department and used as supplementary reading in teaching officers. And exactly what the department of not sure in how gangs operate interesting all right so in because there's a section in taking this young cambodian boy who's taken from his family and becomes a ruthless llosa cymru solter and that whole process Is what the Chicago police tap into said this is what's going on in gangs. also it's not just simply physical indoctrination. It's killing the person who was a young boy and re of having them reborn into this or that they're in whether it's a gang or whether it's rush and one of the things my box They are novels under novels. Because of the way. I put them together but most everything that goes on in. The spokes happened earlier. They're based on historical fact. They're basically historical fact and in personal Personal story snow a washington now. A character in a book is not necessarily one character. One person pronounced sign is say no. He's probably he or. She is a composite of many people. Make sense in including me as a writer. There's part of you in every character down. It's funny that you say that because you in film. Sometimes it's it's a composite of many characters in a book. Now you're talking about how your book is. A composite of many characters in real life says almost like a distilling of the story through every medium the way to put it ahead thought of that way. Yeah but but but in in order to write you. I think you have to do that. Yeah absolutely absolutely now. You're writing under dale dies warrior publishing group Fellow combat correspondent. Vietnam seems to be veteran. Run veteran writers. What's that experience. been like. it couldn't be could be a more positive experience. Both dale and his wife. Julia heart absolutely wonderful to work with a after working with numerous new york publishers. So if you compare that. With what julian taylor doing you know. Of course they were much smaller publisher. They don't have the assets behind them in order to promote the way the big companies do but there are so much more honest and value in itself. Oh yeah incredible. Value there and and they're very good at what they do. Now say i love being with them and i love the people arrogant. Good talk to me about right. I mean you kind of alluded to it a little bit. We'll be publishers and everything. I am sure someone clicked on this episode because it said author you know. Part of your bio says the headlines author the writing profession much like music has changed drastically in the past decade due to digital media For the veterans that are getting out. Now wanna start writing as a profession. What advice would you have. No because it has changed so much And one of the things that i'm seeing in in publishing is that ushers are interested in authors. That have an audience already and particularly if they have a major online audience or are on radio app radio programs or have fish programs. Yeah so you have a you know these megabucks that come out. And then you have like everybody else. a book today. That is not through. That is not. A mega book is probably selling a a. You know ten to twenty five thousand copies and that's considered. That's really considered a very successful from smaller publishers. Hard to make a living that way so develop an audience but understand where what the market is today in how it's working. His very different now was very very odd breaking into the market in You know this really goes back into seventy in the late seventies. You're trying to find someone even look at job. My manuscript probably took a year to get anyone to read it and then for someone say you know what this is too big for me. I'm going to get this out to somebody else. I gotta get this to a a major raw agent now and it was through Through that system. That i got a major asian and Net agent read the first Oh i'm gonna say thirty pages of the manuscript and said. I have to have this book i said to him. How can you say that you haven't read it. You've read your thousand page manuscript. Yeah as you read fifty or sixty pages. Get the whole thing to very very enthusiastic about it on little. Did i know that there had been a seminar of heads of all these publishing houses in new york earlier And one of the topic say had talked about and conclusions they had come to. Was that the vietnam. Novel has not been written yet. And that's when thirteen valley hit this particular agent. And he said this and so that was. That's what Bantam saw it's funny that you said that Publishers want a built in audience when that used to be the role of the publishers. Who bring you the audience. Yeah nowadays they're looking for that. You have to already have a built in audience. And i see that a lot with a lot of riders down. It's just very very interesting because then you get into the role of like why do i need a publisher their self publishing nowa- yes now. All kind of is your marketing. That good so very very interesting time. I think as if you're looking to be professional author of what's going on in the industry. I don't think. I don't think we're at the end of that. A person are a very tough time. It very very tough time to break into it. Yes i'll tell you even with myself As successful as most of my books have been you know. I still in between books even currently on a lot of construction work. Gotcha josh so i go back to that. And i enjoy the fiscal sure. Now your most recent book you just you just released one demise. A novel race culture wars and falling darkness. Yes is it fiction as well yes. It is fiction It's kind of a follow up in many ways to all these other books although it's very different in that although there are veterans in there there's also an actually probably the main character is a non bet. Now i'm very geometric In the way. I right okay. So i see A geometric pattern In the books as i'm writing them. And even as i'm i Putting together demise is written and concentric circles the innermost circle is characters suicide. Contemplacion's and Then the circle around that is everything that's going on in his contemporary life there the first The inside circle is seven days long. The what's going on around him is about the hundred day story of leading up to this period of his suicide contemplation and then the outer circle are all these flashbacks that give you his history. His family history. What has brought him to the point. He wasn't hundred days and again. What brings into this final period in his life but in there and there's as he was growing up so this is in one of the flashbacks in highschool. Here's a running back in high school. Football team use white guy. His best friend is a black. I also running back. They're known as the salt and pepper. Running backs of their does other. High school team lead them to the state championship game. He his best friend goes to vietnam. He drops out and gets into drug culture on and it goes to college but doesn't graduate Finally goes finally meets woman that kind of get him back on. Course goes back to college Finishes college shaw on. Has a family moves to a suburban area and in the suburban area. He finds his friend who after vietnam has gone to college. Become a chemical engineer working for a big corporation in the neighboring city. They get together over their own children. there reestablish their friendship and much of the story if this hundred day story is about what's happening with each of these two families in as Between the city and the suburbs on between veterans and non veterans. Why did you wrote a book like that. I guess a lot of it was because i was experiencing so much of it myself Not quite in the way it happens in the In the story in this book but Seems like a very different style book than what you read before it. It goes very deep into the families into the characters into thinks that happened in business corruption. John all these different conflicts of polarization by race station by city from the suburbs Exurbia a very contemporary and actually One of the things. I'm saying typically with what's going on right out in the country I tell people demise important now more than ever because even though much of it was a written long ago. It's just so pertinent. What's happening today. you also have a blog Peaking at seventy rediscovering americans and self. Yes it looks like. He started at right. When you're seventy lotta hiking in their episode to a three here on more about. We had army veteran erc schlemmer. Who's known as a serial hiker. I think you to get along well. I'm going to have to go back and listen to it. Yeah i mean what you think By the way as a child washington state. I enjoy your wife's photos of mount rainier and mount all the landscape photography period. She's very talented That's my daughter that your daughter. I'm sorry i thought you either either way very talented photographer very talented. She's got a small company issue. Listen down as a small company called the while perspectives. for a. yeah she is. She's a great darn for so. She's a trained photographer. That makes sense because a man was beautiful landscape photographer that i saw there a does that and also on the climb of mount baker She's great shape. And my my son adam who lives out there And orissa certified backcountry country search and rescue. Emt and so Those are the two that i climbed with a would never made it without him at seventy. That's incredible and obviously keeps you in shape. Has the blog in. Hiking is cathartic for some unique for you. Some somewhere is cathartic. And one of the things. I was really aiming for was to talk about it. Sometimes it calls the fourth quarter of life. So one we're in. This quarter of life There are inevitable obstacles and you know it it has a terminus roll. No it yeah. So how can you stay resilient. And how can you come these obstacles that are thrown at you at this stage of life and and remain vibrant as vibrant as you can And so that's the way it started. Personally i got hit myself with With the obstacle of also clydes which has been a huge setback to me. Three years have been having a very difficult time with it. I think i'm finally getting under control. Where i can get back to susan a serious climbing good and i'm looking. I'm so looking forward to doing some climbing again. It's an amazing experience. John was one thing that you learned at service that you carry with you today. Leadership being my mission. My man and me in that orton people. I work with. And i work with many veterans including a in construction those people who see the mission first and their people second to me are very successful and those tend to be very honest people and they're also very successful people who reverse that order and say me at austin it's meave mission and my people To me those are the least successful people. So i think that's something that that's something i learned in the service in one hundred and i particularly we had just as young soldier. I did not appreciate it anywhere near enough. But the leadership in hundred. And i was just absolutely amazing i i will never be able to thanked him or a live up to who these people were or were they still. Menem still are very good john. Is there a veteran nonprofit burnett individual who worked with or for or have experience with him. You'd like to mention. Currently what i think i would say i think is one of the most important stations and there are many of them there there. There's some that are doing tremendous work but There so i think what i would say is most important historically and it leads into all this would probably be vietnam veterans for factual history which is a d f h dot org. Okay if you really want to know what has gone on these to me are the top historians in the country. The certainly go way beyond the the vietnam war both earlier and later Their personal experiences and as veterans to me They destroy show many of the myths about vietnam. There's not a better source of information and through them going to all the Original sources you. You can't now john. Is there anything else that i may have missed. We've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything else. That i missed or or did bring up that you think it's important to share to listener or maybe it may be a parting shot to the listener. I guess maybe one of the things that Having covered is. I did it. Book with frank candler about protecting paul bremmer In iraq in two thousand three two thousand four. This is called the bremmer detail and this is something that i think. I think we lose in. Many ways is so many. Contractors are really part of our brotherhood right And in some ways. I think a lot of people look down on them and say oh. They're mercenaries or something. You know i. It's kind of like it's a bad word but but understand contractors have gone through many of them have gone through a lot of combat. A lot of fun very traumatic situations. They have no support the way Military veterans stu on and they're part of our brotherhood they should be as it should be known by By all of our veterans they have the same problems. Our veterans have with. Ptsd or some portions of it and just reach out to them. Also do we served our country like those before us. The camaraderie is kept me. Going was a dangerous air. Our lavina was dangerous. I didn't know what to expect. When i get back for the first ten years after i got out. No one would've known that. I was in the service i got home got married to his later. Got a job. We came back built lives families and communities but we still had challenges the carnage of war left an indelible mark on me. I have intrusive thoughts are might use services and support. That can help are available for veterans to talk to my doctor and started doing groups one on one counseling. We found ways to move past these challenges for ourselves and for our families and make the connection dot net. You can hear our stories and find tools and services available to you and i talk to people family friends other. That's better. I feel john for coming on on the battle torn more about john. You can go to anywhere. Books are digitally sold type in his name or go to peaking at seventy dot com. That's peaking at the number. Seventy dot com forward slash. The hyphen journey. This week's borne the battle veteran. The week was provided by v as a veteran of the day program every day our digital team honors a veteran with a short right up on all of our social media platforms and on blogs dot. Va dot gov. You can submit your own veterans day by eamonn a photo to and a short right up to new media at v. a. dot gov army veteran marie rossi was born in january nineteen fifty-nine in or adele new jersey. She graduated from river dell regional high school in nineteen seventy six. She then attended dickinson college in carlisle pennsylvania where she majored in psychology and joined the rotc and may of nineteen eighty. She earned her. Bachelor's degree and was commissioned as a second lieutenant in an interview with north jersey dot com. Rossi's brother paul said. He was surprised when he found out she wanted to join the army. He stated that never struck me as anything she was interested in but murray was very adventurous. And i think she did it because it was an unusual thing for a woman to do at the time breaking into the boys club in the first half of nineteen eighty-one rossi attended the air defense officer basic course in the air defense command and control course shows then became an artillery officer with third air-defense tram battalion of fort bliss. Texas in nineteen eighty-five rossi learned to fly and the officer rotary wing aviator program at fort rucker alabama. She became a pilot and then attended the aviation officer advanced class where she learned on how to fly the chinook helicopter rossi flux with the two hundred and thirteenth combat aviation company and south korea from two eighty seven. She was then assigned to hunter army airfield georgia and in nineteen ninety. She became the commander of the eighteenth aviation brigade bravo company second battalion hundred fifty nine th aviation regiment as september of nineteen ninety. She deployed with her unit to saudi arabia. In support of operation desert storm during desert storm. Rossi was a resupply pilot and fluent numerous missions. She carried cargo to the advancing forces of the hundred first and eighty second airborne division. At this time as many of us know the military had a ban on women in combat however when the groundwater started on february twenty fourth nineteen ninety-one rossi's mentions took her into enemy territory four days later. Mark the ceasefire of the short ground war on march first rossi flew in bad weather at night and unfortunately her chinook crash into an unlit microwave communication tower in saudi arabia. Rossi and three other soldiers aboard died in the accident. She was thirty two years old. Rossi was a major at the time and are numerous medals including the bronze star purple heart in air medal. Nine hundred ninety two. She was inducted into the army aviation hall of fame. Rossi also made history as the epitaph on her tombstone at arlington national cemetery. Whoever reads the first female combat commander to fly into battle army. Veteran marie rossi. We honor her service. Best for this week's episode. If you yourself. Electon nominate borne. The battle veteran of the week can just send an email to podcast at. Va dot gov khuda short. Ride up let us know. We'd like to see him or her as the borne the battle veteran of the week. And if you like this podcast episode. Hit the subscribe button on. Itunes apple podcasts. Spotify google podcast iheartradio pretty much. Any pod catching app not phone. Computer tablet or man for more stories on veterans and veterans benefits. Check out our website blogs da. Va dot gov info the on social media. Facebook instagram twitter youtube rally point linked in interest. Dpd affairs us to promote a veteran's affairs no matter the social media. You can always find this with that blue checkmark and as always reminded by people smarter than me to remind you that the diploma better affairs does not endorse or officially sanctioned any entities maybe discussed in this podcast nor any media products or services. They may provide say that because the song you're hearing now is called machine gunner which is courtesy of the nonprofit. Operation song was written by merging veteran mark. Kilani nashville songwriter. Jason seaver and michael dunkin. Thank you for listening. And we'll see right here next week. We gotta get the other machine bullets bad desk us rock lord back seven six to cut him down purple the scene. We're down another campaign. We go rocking in node. Three thirty one thousand nine bringing back woman is this is nineteen eighty two at the wall the dedication of the wall in washington. Dc and. i'm walking along with the my oldest son who is now forty an have mommy shoulders. I've got a field jacket on a under. I have a a a red sweatshirt that says vietnam veteran on top of it. I'm walking with some other veterans and we go to listen to the speech to the speeches. And i turn around and i see a guy there. I hadn't seen him and i'm not even sure knew his name in vietnam and i looked at him. I said tomboys it just just just came out of me. i had. I hadn't seen him. He had been with alpha second of the five zero second and And actually a the basis for one of the characters in in the thirteenth valley And seen him didn't even remember. I knew his name and while it was at that time there were so many experiences like that too. I spent a therapist. Time at the wall Over the next two years memories. just come back memories. Just come back that you're meet somebody or see somebody or see something things that you didn't not know we're in your mind just explode on you and you and you see the whole thing. All over again I it's it's a fascinating and now i am. I know a lot of people talk about this post dramatic way but i'm talking about it in a almost in the opposite in a wonderful way a these in a cathartic and way of saying holy cow. How could ever forgot skyer. Could it ever forgotten that and Came very very close with tom For years and years after unfortunately passed about two years ago. What a great guy and Yeah so there's there are. There's a community. I think of all of us and heaven inter-community that each of us have Of those are close to us but I think that's That's the strength of who we are as veterans.

vietnam ford thirteenth valley army secretary wilkie scott stump general schwartzkopf john delvecchio university of puget Va Thirteen valley asia new york times iskra marine corps thirteen valley The saddle ridge Down valley connecticut
College Financial Aid in the Time of Covid-19

College Admissions Decoded

32:01 min | 6 months ago

College Financial Aid in the Time of Covid-19

"Hello welcome to the college admissions coded podcasts and occasional series from the national association for college. Admission counseling or anachak. Lack is an association of more than fifteen thousand professionals at high schools colleges universities and nonprofit organizations as well as independent counselors who support and advice students the college admission process. I'm edward strong associate director of admission at university of puget. Sound in tacoma washington. I'm joined today by a panel of experts. And we're gonna dig into. What can students do on. It comes negotiating your financial package with me. I have brenda positive Director of school counseling and admission. At bishop gert. Nice all in nashua new hampshire as well as chair of 'neax current trends in future issues committee in rachel gentry assistant director federal relations from national association of student financial aid administrators nasa based in washington. Dc brenda rachel. Thank you for joining me here today. Thank you for having us absolutely With all the corona virus condemning has a severe financial strain on many americans as a result. More families are needing more aid. Let's talk about applying for instance having read your ward letter how to ask for more. If it's not enough and other options students may want to consider as they chart their path to college. We have a lot to cover. They he again for joining today so brenda. Let's start off with the basics. Have long advised all students regardless of income to fill out the fafsa. Why is that so important especially during these uncertain times in what other sources of financial aged students be aware of. You're right edward. This is a big topic and we're excited to be here to talk about it especially during this time which is so uncertain for all councillors promote families filling out the vast for for years. We've always done that. Regardless of their personal financial situation it is always been something that counters have supported and promoted. You just never know what's going to happen but if you don't fill it out you do know what will happen. You will not receive any financial aid or even potentially other financial support of opportunities. The college may offer including job on campus or student loan so we'd support students in in filling out the fast for early even if they're unsure about their final college list and we are they ultimately plan to apply but you get that component. Completed early will really help with their decision. Making the problem this year is that many cancers are not able to reach out to their students or see the student their students in the same way that they have done in years pass and all for some families. Technology has been an issue and everything is online So this is really tough and we have a hard time meeting with the students right now to fill out the fafsa and show them how to do it online. We've had our financial aid nights. We've done all that but it's very different than being in person and being able to connect with people One on one and and definitely face to face so for families much of this. Is i think the lack of filling out fast was right. Now is the fact that there's a lack of Touches continuity Guidance in a in a very different way and this is the includes private scholarships. We're finding many of our students are not filling out the private scholarship applications either. So in a in a in a typical year. There are some private private scholarships that go unapplied for because students are so tired from the admissions process. That they're not all that willing to jump a writer another five or six essays for you know a thousand dollars even though we encourage them to do that but i really do think. Heart of what this year is is the lack of personal connection which is causing many more issues than than we could have imagined. Rachel invite to ask you what comes next the process. When when soon stu fill out the fafsa what exactly is in a financial aid award letter. What are some of the terms that can expect to see in in particular should students and families look for when reviewing and comparing award others so financially award letter or financial aid offer ordered a vacation are all terms that that you'll hear used all those are really any communication that a student will receive from the institution or its. They apply for that sort of outlines all the different types of financially that the schools would offer from a number of different sources. So sometimes this might be a letter that the student receives in the mail. I think increasingly. We're seeing these are kind of electronic vacations it might be in a student portal that just contains financial aid information or might also be linked to have an application for these financial aid offers a notifications typically come after student has completed a fafsa on or eight applications such as the css profile or their state. Vansh eight farms Sometimes it might might see some sort of unification before completing the axa with institutional forms of the since we're talking about facile completion. Generally speaking this. This will come after. The fastest incentive and offer reflect in any institutional aid whether that might be need base grant or amirah bay starship. At the institution is able to provide. it will include federal financial aid that the student is eligible for like a paul grant or federal works of the or federal direct lines and then it may also include seat financially that the student is eligible to receive so there are a lot in terms of student. Could expect to see. You'll likely see the term rant included that might mean a pell grant that might be a statement or base grant and these grants dogs Back students will also see the term loan so this might be a federal lineups going to be the case You might see terms such subsidized or unsubsidized. On which means a subsidized loan means that the loan does not Interest while the student is enrolled and loans are dollars. That students will be expected to pay back then. You also see the term scholarship which are similar to grants in that. You do not pay them back in. You may also see the term work study which are funds that are available to students through student employment often on campus or through your kind of campus affiliated office so when it comes to sort of what students and families should be looking for and should be should be kind of comparing when they're reviewing all of their aid offers so i think there's a few things i you'll see on a notification that there will be a cost of attendance listed said this is essentially a breakdown of all of the costs associated with attending that school. So some are what we call direct expenses which are things like tuition fees that a student would be directly build four by the institution and some are what we called interrupt expenses. Which are things like living expenses rent food transportation things that might vary a little bit depending on the student's circumstances and an extensive they make security gone so i think it's good to i kind of compare the cost of attendance and give you a good idea of what each institution will cost before eight but obviously the the next thing you want to look at is the aid that's listed on the award. Invocation almond eight. That that you're expected to receive. So i think it's important on something. We always remind students of is paying special attention to how much aid offered within each sort of aid type. So how much did you receive in grants and scholarships which is what we call gift aid that you're not going to be expected to pay back. How much did you receive in work. Study how much did you receive him. Loans and then. Finally you wanna look at what we call net price which is essentially the amount of your cost of attendance so all of the direct and indirect costs that is remaining after all of your gift. Aid or grants and scholarships are applied. Said this amount. This net price is the amount that the student in family would would need to cover through loans through savings through income. Really important an important thing she looking at and comparing between schools because actually going to show you what. What's the difference after a couple of things that are important to pay close attention to beyond the cost of attendance. The that you're being offered in the near net vice of renewal apartments for each type of aid being offered some types of aids such as a federal program or state need based grant might be based or are based on your fafsa each year for those surveyed. You may just see to resubmit. The annual there are other types of aid. Maybe it's a institutional scholarship or private scholarship that might have more specific requirements. That a student would need to need to receive funds for the next academic year. So it's important to know whether those thunder renewable and and what would need to happen on the student end to make sure that that's the case. The aid offers will also include things like next steps. Student might need to take so. You've been offered this this financial aid package but you might have to go into a student portal. Indicate that yes you do want to accept the forms of ab been offered so. It's really important to take note of those. Just make sure that you're sticking to your line and you're going through the steps needed to finalize your aid and there are also be financial aid office type information and i. I think that's always important to close attention to because ultimately if you have questions if you're unsure about what specific type of aid means or what it costs means. You should always absolutely reach out to your financial aid office to clear up any questions. There there is a resource. They want to feel discussions and make sure that students and families are understanding their financial aid offer. Thirty one compare between institutions. It's pretty complicated stuff. So it's understandable to have questions. And i know that my colleagues at puget sound They're pretty busy fielding a lot of questions from students and families so it's definitely something we encourage us to get in touch and to make sure that you if something's not clear to ask for that definition and i have a follow up on that One of the one of the types of loans that might be on a letter is what is known as a parent plus loan. He you say a little bit about what what. Appearance tusla's so apparent plus line is a direct line to the federal government is sort of part in saying line program like the direct subsidizing Unsubsidized lens that are offered to students on. But this is actually alone to assist parents in covering Expenses for their children so this is a learned that is taken out in the name. And so i think that the conversation is a little bit different around parent plus loans on. It's certainly an option available that is offered to parents to help finance their their children's education but the loan is not taken out in the student's name seeking on the same instead of whether or not families decide to take advantage of that option. Kind of depends on on the family situation. Their circumstances in conversations that are having about who's gonna be financing their children's education. So i think if i could give one kind of one piece of advice it's to not hesitate to asses options and asks on grade office because you have the question. I can almost guarantee you that many other students and families of opposite question really are used to being there as a resource in new castle students through. I think it's also important to share with families. That award letters can look very different from one institution to the next over. The last few years The current trends committee work closely with nasa in rachel's organization so to encourage a universal award letter that clearly defines what families are seeing. And what it all means. This is just so confusing. And i liked the idea of kind of spreading them out comparing them. All the bottom line costs your out of pocket. Costs can be different depending on how colleges award their financial support and they're all in different formats so it's important to pay attention to the terminology that youths and also the renewable part of of this Some schools may offer you more money the first year. Then it has to be renewed. Through a gpa or no changes in your finances all of that so that's really important to note as a as a family and again it's the bottom line. What is your out of pocket costs. Compared to the cost of attendance so wants a student receives those financial aid offers. They go through them. They compare them like you suggested they contact the institution and have those follow up conversations. What happens when a family's financial situation changes or the colleges final offer is insufficient will auctions students. Jason families have from their brenda. You want to start us off. I think this is going to be a tricky one for sure. Because of prior prior their tax returns are going to be very different than the our current situation is and so we really support intel students and their parents at the financial aid officers are like admissions officers as we We just mentioned their counselors. They're here to help It's important to have those conversations contact. The financial aid office discuss your situation. It's important not to be shy about this. This is a really hard conversation for some families to talk about money or to talk about their child's dream. That might not happen because they can't afford it or they can't get the support they need. It's really a time to be very honest and open in new england. We have a couple of organizations that really support our students. There's me in massachusetts. There's neef in new hampshire. And they are higher ed assistants foundations that really support our students in this process and we are so fortunate because they're free and we send lots of families to these agencies to fill out fast to talk about financial planning for college there are state agencies out there that are can be very helpful as well as as the colleges but i do think the the source is the place to go. So if that's where you're you're thinking about going to college. Talk to the source. And i would just add to that on. There is a process that i think it's worth worth talking about the specific conversation professional judgement so if the student's family or financial situation has changed there are federal regulations that allow financial aid insurers to make adjustments on a case by case basis to some specific data elements on the fafsa that would allow for more accurate estimate and more accurate assessment of the student in families ability to contribute to their college costs so this process professional judgement is something that students apply for. It's it's very individual. It's very case by case on which is sort of intentional. And it could mean adjusting specific data elements due to a loss of incomes. So if a student's parent has also job they could submit a judgment requests which could depending on documentation and sort of the judgment of office. It could result in a change. The students expected family. Contribution we also see professional judgment requesting things like adjustments to a student's cost of attendants to reflect sort of an additional cost of pretty common. One is the cost of dependent our childcare. So we'll see students. Cost of attendance changed for something like that so if a student thinks that they have a circumstance that that doesn't pack their ability to pay for college i think given sort of the economic toll of the pandemic and the unemployment numbers were seeing the changes in income that we know so many families across the country are struggling with If the student has one of these circumstances in the Professional investment there step should be contacting their financial aid office to just get a sense of how the process works on their campus. So as i mentioned professional judgement is handled on a case by case basis and the process is really designed to allow for the flexibility. That's needed to address unique circumstances so i'd recommend that students and families reach out to their aid office ask about what that process looks like ask about specific forums or documentations. That student may me the submit as well. As timeline or any deadlines the students should be aware of. And then once you have information you can go to office of filling out and you required forms providing documentation and. I'd also add that. Because of the current circumstances and economic toll of the pandemic financial aid offices are more than ever very aware of and prepare for an increase in professional on requests. Rachel something that you said. That really sticks out to me is just acknowledging that these are tough conversations to have. I think most families american culture talking about money is honestly considered kind of taboo if not somewhat embarrassing or just some that were that's not normalized or commonplace. So let's say a student does reach out and they talk with the financial aid offices But at the end of the day that unique situation they've they've gone through the professional judgment process and they weren't able to come to a conclusion in the final offers. Not tenable brenda. What are some other options that are available students if it turns out that their top choice is not financially possible for them. The most important thing is for students to realize their journey does not have to stop there. There are other options out there. Community college is definitely a viable in worthwhile path. In fact it's probably the best path if if finances are really a challenge. Students can really explore so many opportunities at community colleges especially if they're not one hundred percent sure of a major they're not one hundred percent sure of where they want to go to school. The idea here is to stay in school. Keep going even if a student takes one or two courses while working The idea of not stopping after high school is so important because it will keep students in school. They'll feel hopefully finish if they keep going. Many four year schools to arse are very supportive of transfer students from community colleges. Many states systems have an automatic transfer program In new hampshire. We have that massachusetts. Has that where students can transfer very easily. their courses are recognized. It's a wonderful opportunity for students. And it's affordable so planning planning time at a community. College is also a good thing to talk to the four year school that you ultimately want to go to about plan the courses that will lead you to an easy transfer so you don't lose any time or any any possible financial aid up opportunities also be on track for your for your major for your program if that out is that school a is ultimately where you want to end up and get your diploma from. It's very important and very welcomed by the four year schools to have that conversation was students who are planning a community college time either a year or two. And they'll help students pick the courses in plan their program appropriately. It's really important for students to understand that there are many options out there and it doesn't always have to be a straight path that sometimes those paths are a little wind -i and we've all had bumps in the road. We are at our path that we thought was was the path we were going to take. It gets bumped out. I think this year that if we haven't learned anything from the pandemic It might be that things aren't as they have always been or will be and that we have to give it and repurpose redesign and rethink and be patient with yourself. That we'll get there but look for other options just in case it doesn't work out. Yeah i know that as a college admission counselor. I've heard from students who've had to really reassess their plans. Some students have chosen to take a gap year for example and often times the traditional gap year. They might be traveling or volunteering. But something that i've noticed. Is that a fair number of students who have requested a gap year in deferred. Enrollment have chosen to use that time to work. Which is the way that they could save some money to go toward college expenses for students who are taking a gap year. What pieces do students need to take place in order to make their time away in the classroom productive. That's a really good question and gap years are tricky. Because it's really has to be thoughtful process and they're great for some students and very worthwhile if may be unsure or not ready to attend college For whatever reason if they are not attending college because of finances or they're not attending college because they they really just don't feel ready. You're they don't know what they wanna do. And so it gives them that extra time to really think it through which is important. This is a big decision. It's an expensive decision. There are many gap your programs out. There in student should carefully at them in europe in order to find a good fit for them are. What are they going to get out of that year. Some are are work based so they get an experiential piece to them Others are experiential or they offer life changing experiences that can be an amazing growth time for that student and really helps them. Rethink their future. Rethink their maybe. They'll find out something about themselves. They didn't know so. Most importantly gap years typically promote continuing students education. After the experience sake that is one of the reasons gap years it exist is to make sure students keep moving on to achieve their goals and enhancer education but they are they are tricky and and i think it. It takes a lot of thought a lot of time in investigation about gap years. So caution is a word that i often used my students. If they're going to gap year in make sure that that is something that they're they're willing to commit to to really get the most out of the experience perhaps take away from that. Is that if a student in their family are considering the going on a gap year issue probably consider having a conversation with their school counselor or with their admission counselor just to see if that's the right option for them because maybe it is. Maybe it isn't right. I would agree with that in. I would also make sure that if the student is thinking about a gap year and they've been accepted to some squirrels that find out if the school is willing to allow them to do the gap year. Because there's been a lot of requests for that obviously over the last the last year and Some schools have a quota of how many students were allowed to defer their admission or have a gap year. Communication and conversation are so important and it's really important that the student make those conversations happen especially around a different choice then attending the four year school that holds a lot of weight with the four year. School that a student would take the time to do that. instead of their parent. It's good piece for students to learn to do that self advocacy and to talk about these things openly with the school that they ultimately may wanna graduate from one thing about that is if a student does decide united gap. Your is the right option for them. I think it's important to to have a plan and be kind of how have points along that year over. You're checking in to say. What do i ended doing to make sure that. I'm able to enroll next fall. And i think one of those things is filling out of africa and taking care of any forms that need to be completed and submitted on the financial aid side of things. Because even if you're able to defer your mission for year on there are probably still things like a fafsa that need to happen throughout your fear to set yourself up for success when you're able to enroll the next fall good point to just sneeze. That is deadlines are aren't slipping by absolutely so rachel a shifting topics just a little bit. Is there any federal or state legislation on the horizon that would give students greater aid amid the pandemic. What sort of bills could provide relief for families to ask. It's definitely very timely. Of congress has provided funding an a number of different bills over the last year or so the cares act was passed back in march included about six billion dollars off specifically for student emergency grants and then the coronavirus response relief supplemental appropriations act which is quite impossible. But that was the bill that was signed into back in december as part of the fiscal year. Twenty one that villa signed back in december including another round of funds for students and institutions. Looking forward congress is also considering passing additional covid. Relief funds through a process called budget reconciliation and based on some legislative tax. That was released last week that bill could include as much as forty billion dollars in additional funds for higher education. In about half a that would be for student. Emergency grant so all that said Talking about how Actually go about navigating these these emergency grants that come from this federal funding that have been give engines Schools have a good amount of discussion of which students will receive emergency grants. Although for the funds that were passed in december schools were required to prioritize grants students with exceptional financial. Needs such as received. Paul grants You think that's important to point out by Generally speaking I think i'd advise students reach out to their financial aid office to see what the process looks like at their school. For seating emergency grant Some slows knee requiring application or a form or some other action provocative action on the part of the student. some schools are awarding emergency grants Automatically to certain student populations to students with specific characteristics are indicators of needs such as power sedans and in the process of vessels are taking to distribute these grants just kind of looks different at the institutional level so. I missed important for students that these emergency grants do exist and they were specifically allocated by congress to support students to kind of whether the storm and supports students financially with the costs that they're facing as a result of the pandemic so not that the funds are available. And then i think the second thing is to reach out to your school on ask for information on what a student can do to access. These grants some schools may have published information on their website or send information the students the on but i think that kind of a thread throughout the conversation today is to reach out to the aid office. Ask for information and Are there to help you. They want to help you so so as we wrap up our conversation today. Let's talk about some advice that we want to share with our listeners. For families that have younger students conversations are important to have now the very beginning of the process. Frendo do you want to start us off. Sure years ago. When i was in new her counselor school's counselor. I would often say to parents. Don't think about finances in. Just let's get the list together that you want to think about visit apply to do that. Anymore one of the first conversations. I have with families is around financing their students education. What does that look like. What does that mean for the family. that is such an important conversation now. This discussion includes having the family do in that price calculator for some of colleges. Your suit may be interested in making sure. They know the financial support opportunities each colleges offer such as marinade work study etcetera. It's definitely a research project. But i think it helps in the long run so many times over the years that i've been account sir. I've been at school counselor for a long time. And it makes me so sad in april when you know may i is around the corner and students still haven't figured out where they're gonna go because their family hasn't really figured out the finances and also when they are kind of on a path and then all of a sudden the financially doesn't come through and those colleges are viable and so we're sort of back to the drawing board trying to find schools that would be Appropriate and would be still open for admission and probably not have very much financial left so the process of of really thinking this through financially becomes more and more important. And so i guess what i would say to families who might have a college team with younger kids drag those younger kids on college visits drag those kids through the conversation with the older one because that helps a lot because we'll students will come in to see the counselors and they'll say well my brother sister and we can either work off of that or say. Well this is. What's different now. So it gives us a sense of comparison of where the families mindset might be and so it can be really helpful. It's so important to have those conversations with financial aid officers. When you're visiting colleges go to the financially would open houses. Make sure you go to the financial aid opportunities that they offer talk. If it's a if it's a fair type situation at the college go and talk to the financial officers. Make an appointment with the financial aid officers so nice that they are willing to help families and so why not use them. Thank you so much to rachel and brenda and thank you for joining us for this episode admissions dakota as podcast from knack the national association for college. Admission counseling is produced by lane tc williams and co kojiro produced this episode. If you'd like to learn more about not cox guests our organization in the college. Admission process visit our website at www dot net dot org. Please leave a review and rate us on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts.

brenda national association for colle university of puget bishop gert neax current trends in future rachel gentry national association of studen brenda rachel amirah bay new hampshire edward nasa washington nashua Rachel tacoma axa stu cancers
Stroke SIG: Vision Loss After Stroke  Episode 4

ANPT Stroke Special Interest Group

51:26 min | 2 years ago

Stroke SIG: Vision Loss After Stroke Episode 4

"Hello and welcome to the stroked. Special interest group podcast. Today we are looking at to be joined by two great guests will be talking to us about vision. Impairments following stroke. Our first guest is dr kathleen degree dr kathleen degree is a neurologist. Neuro ophthalmologists and is board certified. As a doctor of headache medicine. She works to the university of utah medical center and founded the neuro service at the university of. Utah's john aymaran ice center where she practices. She specializes in neuro ophthalmology and headache. Where she evaluates and treats complex visual complaints which can be due to optic nerve or brain diseases doctor degree sees patients with complex neuro ophthalmology disorders such as dima photo phobia visual loss and appropriate as well as migraine headaches and unusual headache disorders doctor degree teaches at the university of utah medical school as professor of neurology and ophthalmology. She is the chief of the division of headache. In ophthalmology as well as an adjunct professor of obstetrics and gynecology she recently was appointed to the rank of distinguished professor at the university of utah for her achievements that exemplify the highest goals of scholarship. She has authored over two hundred peer reviewed articles chapters and reviews in addition she has served professional associations as a past president of the north american neuro society and is the current president of the american headache society. Welcome dr degree. First question we have for you is what is neuro ophthalmology. And how is it. Different from ophthalmology relation in relation to stroke neuro ophthalmology of the brain. And the i and since most of the brain serbs vision. A lot of the brain serves vision There are always visual consequences to stroke and I would just say that. I'm a neurologist. That does neuro ophthalmology but we have ophthalmologists that also do neuro ophthalmology and all of us no matter whether you're ophthalmology trained neurology trained or both See visual consequences of stroke are second-guessed is casey mitchel. Casey holds a master's degree of occupational therapy from the university of puget sound and a graduate certification in low vision rehabilitation from the university of alabama at birmingham. Casey currently works in euro specialty outpatient clinic for inter mountain healthcare where he with a variety of clients with neurologic injuries. Many of whom have vision impairments. Casey also works for the miranda is center working with low vision and neurologically impaired vision patients. Casey has been occupational therapist for over sixteen years with an emphasis in neuro rehab and enjoys the challenge of working with clients who have multiple diagnoses in order for them to achieve greater independence and quality of life. in addition he's an adjunct professor for the university of utah in both the department of social and recreational therapy in department of ophthalmology and visual science. Casey you have some specialized training in vision therapy. Can you describe to us a little bit more in detail. So my background is in Low vision is vision. Can't be corrected anymore. And then i recently worked in a clinic. We work with brain injury patients stroke and then also people who have acquired brain injury. And so i. I've taken some courses on mickley brain injury in vision. And then i i have a a a graduate certificate in low vision and so that was just kind of a study of the visual system and so then you know integrating vision into treatment. Vice versa is really key so that sounds great. Thank you both for joining us. Doctor degree could you remind us briefly of the visual pathways in anatomic structures most associated with vision that could be affected after a stroke and there was already quite a few. Yeah well first of all the eye itself can be affected by vision by visualize with stroke and that's with central retinal artery inclusions ranch retinal artery inclusions and And strokes can come from the anterior or the posters circulation. In if i just a take you through the visual pathway. I i'll just it's the i connected with the optic nerve. And then at the kiosk some there's a crossing that occurs and then the when the crossing is over we have an optic track the takes vision than to the lateral body and then to the cortex and And eventually the exit obita. It all ends up in the exit lobe But it goes from the lateral genetic can go up to the prior to loeb and And down through the temporal lobe and that visual pathway then can be affected by stroke and any one of the places so in the eyeball you can have an anterior stroke that causes. The central are reclusion inclusion or a branch retinal artery exclusion or it can cause an schema to the entire i Through an upsell mc artery exclusion The next place that you can have it which is not really a stroke. But it's like a stroke to the optic nerve which is anterior schemic optic neuropathy it's a small vessel occlusive problem. That occur can occur. Either idiopathic louis or it can occur in associates association with giant cell arteritis and then Going further back to the qasem. Sometimes there are infarctions of the kiosk itself but because the kaya zoom has very rich blood supply is it's not always affected by a stroke per se but the tract optic track lateral genetic hewlett and the middle lobe as well as the branches said. Come from the lateral genetically to the exit. Low could give you visual pathway strokes and these will be hamas visual field defects. Then if you have an and the answer your pathway would give you mostly retinal artery exclusions. And maybe some exclusions of that would affect quadrant defect most of the post cheerier exclusions which are from the post your your circulation. This comes from the vertebral arteries up to basler every into the most terriers cerebral arteries. On can give you a simple lobes strokes and also give you a momma's strokes this poster circulation then can affect the brain stem to give you double vision and the syr bellum which can give you a various types of nice day so you can see that. It's there's an anterior type of pathway. That can give you some visual field. Defects post your pathways give you a visual field defects and then it can give you double vision if it affects the brain stem and staying mus Texas's bellum and abolish. It could cover all all of the pathways. If it was coming from the heart it can be complicated. Yes it can be very complicated. We've seen that in the clinic. I think everyone of us as a thank you for going through that. So concisely and the next question. We have for your doctor degree. Is what subjective complaints should we be on the lookout for it may indicate visual impairments after someone who's had a stroke and that may not actually sound visual impairments or and sound visual impairments but we need to dive in a little bit deeper for okay so a steady was actually done on. What are the complaints. The problems that people have after stroker's just recently published in plus in twenty thousand nineteen and the first thing that seems to be affected central visual acuity in over half of the keys and then that should be a red flag. If you have a little hand held card you're in the hospital or in rehab facility or whatever you need to do visual acuity and if it's not twenty twenty then you've gotta have a reason for why it's not twenty twenty okay and so that's really a big clue that something is going on of the next thing could be double vision People complain of double vision And sometimes they'll complain visual field loss but nature doesn't like avoid so they're unlikely to walk into your office or your clinic or your hospital saying oh i'm having problems with my visual field off the right they're going to just say something's not right in my right eye so that should be a clue to somebody taking care of a stroke then there can be visual inattention or visual perception problems and inattention means that they really don't know what was going on but they may not be paying attention to one side their vision and most people were stroke are going to have something that affects more than one visual category over half of those patients with stroke are gonna affect one of the other have more than just one category and that's why it's difficult it's difficult for us. We have to figure out all the problems that a person has when we see somebody who is a stroke to figure out. Do they have an acuity problem. That's related to Just a refracting issue or is this related to the stroke itself. A physical therapist will usually perform a basic visual screens. am including smooth pursuits. Conversions qods field cuts depth perception and brief acuity. This basic visual screen helps with some visual concerns related to balance problems Or scanning that may affect the person's safety in your opinion which visual impairments are the most important to screen for from physical therapy perspective so i would say That visual acuity. I know you do a brief one but that visual acuity is actually really important. It should be done distancing near but if you only have a near card that can suffice frequently what people forget to do is check the pupils for relative after pupil defect. Because that may be a clue as to where in the visuals system the problem is it. Could be in the optic nerve. I could be in the retina. I and or it could be the tracked. The visual field should be done. Each is individually not both is at the same time but i would check for simultaneous neglect with both eyes open. I agree about pursuit. Cicadas and looking for an miss but i think one of the most important test to do is to do a cover cross cover test which really looks for a misalignment of the eyes at that will cause double vision and will cause a lot of visual confusion for a person and then finally i know most physical therapists. Don't have a way to look at the fundus but that's also important on and then as far as neurologic examination. I know that was physical therapist. Check the cranial nerves. Look for a hemi paris's or himmy please. I don't know how often reflexes are tested. But they're very helpful and then making sure that people can walk or they can't walk. You know what kind of devices they need to be mobile. Yeah that's great Casey do you wanna weigh in on this one two for evaluation that you might think might be helpful and then maybe you guys typically perform. That might be easy enough for us to understand. Absolutely she mentioned really all of them but you know just the stress the importance of acuity like many of the paper pencil tests. That are that are often administered to people strokes if there's any type of acuity problem these penciled tests are really they don't show anything i'm in fact they might you know if if somebody doesn't check carefully they'll give a false positive something else And so you know. The acuity is essential and sometimes you don't have access to in a cutie card just pulling out some something that can read is sometimes gives you an indication so even if you don't have all the equipment you can really give get a pretty good idea of of acuity in a clinic that isn't stocked well And then you know. I really like i like the she mentioned the cover uncover test to because that sometimes some patients have a fauria where you know they'll have double vision but it's only when they're tired or fatigue in apple often bring that out so you know that there might be something more than just you know to the complaint but it kinda helps you figure that out as well and i always just looking for nostalgia the cranial nerves. How they're affected. You see any kind. I worked with a lot of kids with concussions and their visual system should just work very very very efficient in so if there's any kind of little glitches in there. That's that's usually an indication that something is going on. So i would just add you know if you don't have a visual acuity card you could take out You know a phone book a book just a regular book or and then just see. The person was able to read something from the phone book or something. That's kind of a standardized like a bar. A paperback or a magazine with bull's is in in reading the problem with reading. As if you've got certain types of strokes you might wipeout. You're reading so you have to. Maybe even ask about individual letters are just say. Can you just tell me what letters you see on this page. If that's something you see a lot with stroke. Is i work with the years ago. That had asia so he could tell us. And and that's the that's the problem with visual. Sometimes people have to tell you some of these things but covered. He had double vision because we are playing chess and he kept putting the chess piece on the wrong square. And so it was like you know. We didn't put a patch on him in awesome. He could play correctly. So you have to rely in the click especially on just what you see. Our observations are can be pretty accurate. That's great So how do you guys typically assess for deploymenta we talked a little bit about acuity already and field cuts. I think those are some of the things that we struggle with from physical therapy. Not having as much formal education on those So so for visual fields We cover each. I individually and present numbers in all four quadrants of somebody's vision And then each individually. And that i do both is at the same time with simultaneous stimulation. I would say there's a wonderful resource for all listeners Which is the novel library. The neuro ophthalmology virtual educational library novel dot. Utah dot edu. It's comes out with a partnership between the north american neuro ophthalmology society and the university of utah. Eccles health sciences library and this partnership was developed a virtual library in neuro ophthalmology. And in this library you can find out how to do visual fields how to check visual acuity how to do cover crops covered testing how to look at movements huddled pursuits the cads etc so i would urge listeners to check out that library because it has many of the examination tools in the library. It's free open access And nanos just published a piece called nanos next of neuro ophthalmology examination techniques In it's available through your library just ask your library to acquire. It's like Up from stat raff. It's just a like journal type of thing but it's available to health. Sciences libraries and libraries can order it. So it's a great resource both novel and this Nanos next Examination technique curriculum is is really great for your listeners of awesome. It's always great to to compile. More resources in the clinic could can be overwhelming so having those free resources is wonderful. So additional areas of concern. Post stroke are inattention and visual. Perceptual deficits is often difficult to determine concerns related to vision as opposed to something else and insights that that might be helpful for pt. On to tran. Discover some of those differences particularly for therapists who maybe are in more rural settings in have less access to a vision specialists of any kind. Well i'd say i get your exam as best you can Because that will help you at least know what the deficits are. If you can get the exam down a little bit you know the acuity the field the eye movements and then You know if they're still complaining. And i yearn just not seeing what they're complaining about them. Casey is as the master of finding out what's really going on he. He's like a magician. He goes out there and he figures it out so the i know you have lots of pearls that you can share amount won a lot of times. It's just a matter of Just i like. I like to go their homes to do it because you can figure out you know in their own environment. What's difficult for him. And then you know it's really just about cheesy now you know and and for me. It's not so much important. I like to see what how it's affecting their function and then going from there I saw recently that his vision. You described it as like looking through kaleidoscope or is it like looking out a bunch of flies all over the place and for him it just. Is you know you kinda rack. Your brain is any of his vision functional and be honest it really may not be because it's very confusing him so i i'm kind of taking a different approach that we we might just start teaching him blind techniques and see if it makes it easier for him to juicing rather than the other way around Otherwise what would what i would like to do is just see you know. Is there a spot where they have some normal vision and then work from there. Feeding off of that question and what type of impairments would warrant referral to an ot with vision specialty or neuro up the mall. If we do have access to those so i would just seep up Anybody who's got visual complaints that the ophthalmologist europe. Thomas can't really help the ot pt figure out what to do next. Then they should get they should probably go to a neuro ophthalmologist Many ophthalmologists and optometrists are very good. At saying what the visual defects are if the patient's still complaining and nobody can come up with wi. They've got the complaints neuro. Ophthalmologists are detectives and we go after everything at what by the time they get out of our clinics man. They know that they've had their visual system. Completely looked at because we do have other tests that are available. I mean we can look at a visual field of formal visual field. In addition to our confrontation feels we can look in the back of the eye and We can detect amer maladies with elektra ratna grams in multi focal ear jesus and visually vo potentials and fluency nanograms and so we have a. We have a lot of tools that can help. Tell the pta and where where and what going on. But i tell you after a stroke the pt ot is really the place to go because these guys are all all of them. I've ever used especially cases who's amazing are just excellent at helping patients. Try to get their lives back together especially with. This is really hard right. P. to a stroke is really hard on somebody. Your life is different. And you got to figure out how to navigate the world in a different way so i an example of of of when this was done right we had a young man that came to a while ago but he went to just routine eye exam you know. He's complaining about some some problem with with a visual field in the thomas sent him to neuro ophthalmology. They found that he actually had a tumor. That was pressing down. I believe was the optic nerve and once tumor was removed. He still has some visual field deficit. But we are able to help him start again and what was great. As he loved to read at this point he really avoided reading prior to this and he didn't do very well in school but we were able to kind of get him motivated. He was working on got working on his gre. Packets are yes graduate package. Whatever they're calling for but Then he got into a locational program and so it was really fun to see him progress. You really wouldn't have tell. That tumor was removed and is visual. System was had a chance to really. He'll rebound how i find. Ot with vision specialty or a neuro ophthalmologist. If i'm a newer clinician or i'm just transitioning into neuro rehab And i'm i'm trying to find those resources for patients is there to find a neuro ophthalmologist to the north american neuro. Ophthalmology website the anos web dot org and There it says find neuro ophthalmologists. You put in where where you live. And and they give within ten miles fifty miles one hundred miles. Two hundred miles whatever but All of those are to help you find a neuro ophthalmologist unfortunate with. Ot were not organized. So we're kind of new for us to be envisioned or at work with vision. And so we're right now. Trying to take on his instances. I can give them as as as much education in terms of of occupational therapies relationship. Division as possible so there are a number of schools and sometimes that's the best way to go. I i did low vision training of alabama. And there's also envision in kansas city sometimes graduates from these programs will know where there are some resources or where people have habit. So we're really trying to get more out there but right now. Unfortunately there's not a ton of us so so moving onto prognosis now Doctor degree what is the most common visual impairment stroke. Well visual acuity. And so and. I can't stress this enough. Because let's say you have a field defect but let's say you need glasses. Got something we can do. I mean that's i. I wanted to see start visual acuity because if we get people seeing the best that they can see with what. They've got laughed. That's that's doing a great job for them. And i see. Qc is in agreement with this key. See yes and then And then i think the thing you know if it's a this will feel fact That's where key see and a physical therapists occupational therapists could be very helpful in helping patients figure out how they're going to navigate their world. And and what this means to their lives. If it's double vision. I try to put in prisons into their glasses. You know because. I can put a stick on prisonment sir glass and the that might take care of their double vision and the good thing about strokes in general. This is an in general is they. Do get a little bit better with time i would say. Sometimes i've seen people get better progressively overhaul year and so i always encourage people to not give up right away because things tend to get better with time and the brain is wonderful at trying to help you deal with whatever deficit you have. That's why we got great brains and got brain. That can help a navigate through a different pathway of people will see better. I'm so i think diagnosing and seeing what the defects are getting the best prescription lens for the patient and then And then if we can do some double vision work. If we can't sometimes what i do as i call it. My magic scotch tape treatment Instead of a pirate patch. I just put scotch tape over. One lends get rid of the double vision so that they can at least navigate. Imagine having to work with two images all the time that would drive anybody crazy and if they've got a lot of nice stag mus seeing if you can find a position where they're nice statements isn't quite so bad. That sometimes can be helpful too. So that's kind of what i do is refraction presumes I try to you know. Make sure that they know what they're defects are and some people don't can't see their defects but their family members see him kozaru. They've got neglect door You know they've got impairments that they can't recognize so and then i did. I definitely make a pt ot referral. Because i feel like at pt ot for me is wonderful because they can help work with the vision to get function into their lives with visual acuity on working with our our speech therapists in our in our clinic Going through some of their cognitive tests that have a visual component. And that's we just went through a bunch of Incessant and that's and that's really what i came up with If they do a quick and dirty visual acuity tests then they'll know if what they're seeing in. The cognitive assessment is real. If not they're going to get a false positive for cognition and it's just a visual problem If all need his glasses man. that's fantastic. Is that something you can change other times. You're kind of dependent on You know what how much damage there is to their cognition like so somebody that has neglect versus just a hemi anoxia. You can teach somebody to scan for missing. He'll they haven't neglect there as well. You're going to have to recruit their whole family friends. And it's going to take just more repetitions than you can possibly provide. So you've got to recruit family if them looking to the sign looking to the second side all the time and so you know all those kind of things. I've been trying something with with double vision where we do like a ler scotch tape thing so all have to turn their head and they cover up vision with one science so you know. There's some tricks like that help. People function just dealing. That are great. You just can't tolerate double vision. Just is so hard coggins Pushes you into cognizance. So if you can take that away even if it's temporary thing it's fantastic for what is the level of spontaneous recovery of vision impairments stroke in doctor degree. You went into that a little bit but if there's anything else you'd like to add a most of the time people improve at it depends on what defect they have but But but they never usually never get back to baseline. unless it's just a moment issue. They might be able to recover from. But if it's a real field defect loser usually pretty permanent They might be able they. Can you know work with pt ot to try to expand that but but there's often a permanent visual loss if it's a visual field defect diplo pia can or cannot improved depends on where the lesion is. And what how big it is. I'm that's my assessment on that so casey. This one's directed toward you when is the prognosis for functional improvement for field loss visual perceptual deficits to africa. Just talk to that affirmative functionally. You know i think a lot of it depends on just how severe in how how much of a cognitive component is. If somebody has for example somebody has a neglect that makes you know overcoming the field cup much more difficult. If it's just a field you can teach somebody to scan. Pretty effectively is a pretty dramatic seal. You can teach them how to scandal that side the point where they start safe or more safe you can also teach families things like sighted guide to give him through that initial part where they're more comfortable going out because that's one of the things that i always worry about is you know. I don't want people to barricade themselves in their own because they're scared to go out and so if you teach family how to help them and then eventually teach them how to train somebody else of grabbing elbow in leading around that in itself makes it so they can go out into public Those kind of things are are pretty good. I i find that most people you know they will get better with time things it easier to get used to it. Their brain adapts to some degree in. Our job is really facilitate. How is there a way to get them to a point where they are functional and more comfortable with their impairment as quickly as we can and so. That's where we use tricks. And that's where we use teaching to the family Those kind of things so again in relation to the pregnancy how these impact the basic. Adl's i-i've in particular driving. I know that's always the million dollar question. It is everybody that has any kind of visual problem. They're always asking about driving and and some of its some of the answers to that are pretty easy if somebody has a ninety degree field their of driving. I mean they just don't have enough visual field the safe and that's kind of an assessment we do. I've got one particular client that has As a pretty significant visual field loss he got started. Getting returning isn't any as far periphery. But he's he. Has this gap right where you would look for opposing traffic. And so even though. It's a smaller. I tell them that if it were if he were missing the field were all the way to the side. You probably hasn't division to drive where it's the location of the field cut. Just wouldn't wanna ride with him. So i teased him that if he decides to drive Homage like take the bus so now. That's the kind of thing you know you. You have to work through some these issues because people really want to drive And and sometimes the answer is just no now in terms of basic eight yells. You can teach people how to do things really with very little vision and there's usually enough motor memory in things like that. They can get back to those cents. Sometimes ideals are a little bit more challenging but if you if you take them one at a time you can usually figure a workaround or some type of adaptation that will help them do a semblance of what they were doing before I'm gonna add a follow on question and it can be either of you. How do you guys make the distinction when someone is able to drive again or to take a license away. Vh to just talk through the thought process. Because i know that's always a challenging thing for anybody involved in the care of somebody who's had some visual impairments that ostro. I'll take the first stab. Let casey do the cleanup On that that's a really hard question but again what we do is we assess the acuity in our state has rules about what acuity they have to have visual field. They have to have in order to drive. And then there's different levels of kidney drive you know on a freeway or can you drive here and there and but there are levels of in our in our state and each state is got different rules. So you gotta know what your rules of your state are if it's a a homonym defect meaning the whole visual field to one side or the other is out. That's pretty much. You know what that's just not going to work and if it's an inferior quadrant stroke that is usually not gonna work if it's superior quadrant. Sometimes those people can't drive because they can safely see what's below them. If it's just one i Often the those people could drive and then we always have a backup of our ot and pt. So if we don't know and we're worried we just call up our pt and ot and they do a driving evaluation and we love that because we go you know what maybe you meet the criteria for driving. But i wanna make sure you're safe to drive. And then they have to go through a driving evaluation and then. I handed over to pt ot to do that. Driving avail. casey. I do something kind of similar in the clinic. I work and we have a drive-in specialist. And i know sugarhouse were dark. Agree sends a lot of her patients on. They also have a driving specialist. So i'll work with somebody in to will all take him through tests like is there visual reaction time sufficient. How about the problem solving. Do they have the emotional stability. The drive you know we had one client not too long ago. That met all the criteria but i was really scared that he was gonna follow somebody home to cut him off and you know his anger was just there so that person worries me even though he meets other criteria. And so. But you know we kind of do the same thing. I will get somebody to the point where. I checked all the boxes. You know they can react fast enough. They a they appear to have the acuity their field seeing good then. I sent him to somebody. That's been doing this for a very long time specifically in driving and they take him through a battery of tests and then they will take him out on the road to see how they handle the stress of driving. And that's kind of what we do and it's it's a fun thing to see somebody that didn't really leave. Could get back to driving. Prove you wrong and it's really quite uncomfortable thing to tell somebody that really wants to drive. Just it's not a safe thing for them to do and it's likely never going to be to treatment. What our options for treatment for visual field loss well You know there's been all kinds of people who tried to come up with Algorithms for visual fields and putting an charging a lot of money to pay attention Again i will rely on my pt and ot for helping on the visual field. The most and really visual field is just. It's about getting that repetitive. Scanning i i like to put somebody initially when i'm doing the training like to you know. Get them looking to the affected side in elected. Set it up on a cadence so every time there right foot goes down low to the right and i just do things very very. Repetitively is even even those who have a visual field. Loss known aglet their brain tends to give the the feeling that they have a full visual field. And so it's it's you know it's neglect is more obvious than that or more difficult to overcome but even somebody that has a pretty significant field cut their brain tends to operate like no. I see everything. I'm fine and so it is just doing something very repetitive. To get him to move over to that side. Get a looking to that side and so set up all kinds of scenarios to help them learn that Recruit family. I recruit other therapists. No so i make sure that their physical therapists on the same team is doing. You know making him address. That affected side speech. Therapy know everybody needs to be on more in terms of helping somebody get consistently looking to the affected side so what are options for treatments for visual perceptual deficits of stroke. That's harder that's a lot harder And again. I think that's where. Pto can help a lot more than me. We can tell people what their issues are. There doubts a lot harder for us to deal with a i kind of called vision. Perception in this is the rocket science vision. I mean people like dr gre- actually understand it. I i really you know it for me. It's just about trying to observe where the deficits are and then trying to work ways around there it is it is so hard Possibly you communicate and just try to get a pitcher through lots and lots of time on of what. Their visual pitchers manifest itself. All over the place. I've got patients dr greaves. She sees all kinds of things like this But you know i have. I had one guy that i was testing. You know his his Smooth pursuits and mine. Testing target was yellow and just the color yellow set him over the edge. I mean until that point. I'd already lost. He he never came back. And i was just like i felt so bad because like you know my target was yellow. Just send him off but you know sustain color. I mean motion Any of these things can just send a push it too hard on that. First day i've given him a horrible migraine in the eighty. And so you know. Just just learning how much i can ask them to do. Just be very careful. I mean and sometimes i give people what i think is very conservative amount of range of motion exercises or anything like that and i find out later that it was too much. And so it's like you have air on the side of extreme caution because a headache especially visual headache. Just doesn't get much worse when it comes in so in doctor. Degrees caseload is just full of people that are just you know that she helps immensely but still are just so limited by the that head pay so what are treatment options for ocular motilal deficits post stroke. So i've already mentioned stick on prisons two glasses and then you can. If the visual diplo stays the same you could get. You can grind them into a glass and and that's very helpful and if it stable for a long enough time we can refer them for muscle surgery Stood business surgeons can then straighten on people's eyes out if they've got double vision and skew deviations So but i usually. I wait a long time on those because usually they can get a little bit better with time and are you. Don't wanna do surgery or anything drastic. Because people can get better with time we see we see clients occasionally to if you if you add some exercises muscle. I muscle exercises that. Sometimes you can address that and and help them get a little bit better now. It doesn't work for everybody. I mean it depends on like you know the things that i don't understand. The duck agree pointed out earlier of where the damages. How much damage in the brain was done. So some people respond well to treatment and the the double vision resolves over time other people. You know it's just a matter of helping them. Adapt find ways to find single vision and then ultimately opted the surgeons in really make a change in their life host treatment. How much of the moment you feel as related to improvements in lost or altered vision in how much of it is substitution or adaptation to improve the functional ability. Yes is the answer the answer it depends right always i mean you. The goal is to help them return to as close to normal as possible. And then you always end up with a to some degree or another is the double vision may go away but then there might be of perceptual issues. That weren't aware of when you first started. That come up. Are there outcome measures that can document progress throughout therapy that would be valuable for. Pt's obviously we do some. That are very mobility related but are there others that that might be helpful a little bit more vision related or in terms of neuro ophthalmology. Are there things that you would like to see the pt report to you. Specifically i you know will send to the pta. And they'll have my records about what's wrong and And i just i think the pt and ot are so important Are at everybody. That has a stroke. Should see somebody to help them. Overcome their deficits and I don't know of any measures per se If they're not doing well like could. I have missed something in my exam. That i should be working on or You know do. I have the acuity the best i can get it. I mean these are things. I have to always ask myself if they're not doing well and pt and ot. I diagnosed everything. Have i got the best glasses. I got the best exam on them. That i could get in and i rely on. Pd not to say to me. You know this prison still not doing well. Could you just check recheck. That visual field or recheck. This or something like that. I i love it and i think the best outcome measure for us is just returned to function at some point. It doesn't really matter. If their vision has improved. I mean if they can go back and resumed some of the meaningful tasks that they've not been able to do some degrees you know that's really the outcome measure. Are they able to do things that they enjoy the able to continue on with their life. I know outcome measures. Kind of a big puzzle therapies right now in terms of medicine in general is a test that you can give them that shows that if improved And i think we're in the process of developing some of those. Most mark are sensitive enough to know. If there's anything like mike. My goal. When i go to somebody's home or at work with somebody that has had a long standing vision. Problem is often to one task. We can do that you know that they've been unable to that. We can help them start again. I mean and it can be anything. Like i worked with a lady with with macular degeneration which is just. It's not really neural problem. But it has since you know. Some very fundamental function functional problems this this lady love to make this little austrian lady and she likes to make the single needle Holiday cards and so we had to set up a station that provided magnification in light. And really what we did is we just we. We address the specific problem in for her it was magnification lightly and in a stable surface to work with so she could use two hands and we provided that and then she was able to do the task again. And so that's really the outcome measure. That i like the most is can somebody returned to a meaningful tasks again and sometimes one is all we get. And that's that's a pretty good outcome for me. So the last question i have for you is what is the goal of occupational therapists who work with individuals who have vision impairments post stroke in. How do they compare and are build off of neuro ophthalmology goals interventions well. I think it's You here's a good example of how providers of medical providers neuro ophthalmologists work with ot and pt to get the best outcome for patients. We can go so far in the diagnosis and we can identify issues but really we have to work hand in glove because when it comes to function you guys have the trick. Said we don't have. We have the you can put things together. That are gonna work better for patients. I'm yet more time to kind of observe and watch what they're doing what they wanna do. Oftentimes we busy clinics that we have to just run in and run out We don't have you know we can't sit there for five hours or even an hour watching what they're doing and seeing what what they want to be doing so i. This is a good example of interprofessional collaboration right And and how important. That is for every single patient that we see and i i would agree with that. A great deal. I mean i. I'm not comfortable working with somebody you know. Especially if they've got a lot of visual problems on if they've not seen somebody like dr agree i mean dr greaves fantastic. Because she just she understands the therapy component and just the need for people to get better. I mean she's but she is also just a gifted physician in terms of You know figuring out what's wrong in the in the cause and that's those kinds of things are so far above of my my way of thinking. That is just fantastic. When we have her report that suggest this is a problem. Is the problem this problem. And it gives a great place to start in terms of just figuring out how to get person a person back into their lives and it's just a fun relationship awesome. Do you guys have any parting comments or any other paroles. You think you wanna share with us. I i just wanna think doctor degree i. I am especially her descriptions through neural pathways. In that i was taking notes the whole time so like just spend a seminar on news so thank you very much. Well go to the novel website and died your you can have a whole tutorial and all kinds of things Lectures on things The miran court you know the ram is center. Here at the university of utah has just started. A new website called the miran core. It's a clinical ophthalmology resources and education. It's another open resource In there are lectures that we give our residents in visual pathways. And you can listen to these hall. Just a whole lecture that we do for our residents and we've got medical student and basic ophthalmology section so go to the marine corps dot utah dot. Edu and that is a open resource. It's got videos. It's got lectures. It's got grants but it also an end we do. We've started a kind of a rehab component to and So we're hoping that are low vision specialists. And casey you and lisa word. Some of our team here at the man is center. Will work to populate Information for other people across the whole united states and the world This is an open access Website for the whole world as well as our country. That's awesome end on. Part of the american neurologic physical therapy association stroke special interest group We want to just say thank you to both of you or thanking time with us and imparting wisdom thank you very much well and keep up the good works. We have to work together. Yes thank you very much. Thanks a lot.

stroke Casey headache university of utah dr kathleen degree dr kathleen university of utah medical cen john aymaran university of utah medical sch american headache society casey mitchel department of social and recre department of ophthalmology an mickley brain injury retinal artery exclusion brain injury Utah dot edu north american neuro ophthalmo Eccles health sciences brain diseases university of puget sound
120 - Dr. Brenda Wade and Dr. Cheryl Ep. 1

Wealth Transformation Podcast

31:46 min | 1 year ago

120 - Dr. Brenda Wade and Dr. Cheryl Ep. 1

"Are you so full of fear? You can't even talk about money and wealth. Dr Cheryl is showing you. How shift your mindfulness with your wealth relationship? Most people don't even like to talk about money from personal level. You can learn how to get past the fear and talk about money and wealth and free yourself to a healthy relationship no matter where you are in your life. Are you ready for some good changes? This really affects all areas of your life. It's time for the wealth. Transformation podcast. Now here's your host. Dr Cheryl Shire. Wealth is the ability to fully experience life by Henry. David Thoreau our special guesses. Evening is Dr Brenda Wade. Phd This is the first segment of a two part discussion with Brenda psychologist television host keynote speaker founder. Of love money and see the seminars. Author Dr Brenda Wade is best known for her dynamic. Love centered approach to transformation. She has earned numerous awards as a psychologist keynote speaker. Workshop leader author television host and producer. Dr Brendan known for her. Knock them alive. Interactive delivery offers keynote addresses and presentations on optimal health and success to corporate professional and generally general audiences internationally. She her presentations have been hailed as legendary and as a keynote speaker. Brenda Doctor Brenda leaves. Audiences standing on their feet cheering but above all inspired with the takeaway tools to keep building. Success Dr Brenda has consulted for MCA the Disney Corporation. The Canadian Government San Francisco Fire Department and many other start to Brenda chaired. The San Francisco. Human Rights Commission serves on the boards of various community organizations and has received multiple awards for work in the field of domestic violence. Hiv and AIDS and service to family and children. Dr Brenda clinical psychologist in San Francisco. California specializes in couples and family therapy with a private practice that reaches internationally a protege of the world renowned author and Therapist Dr Virginia Sattar. Her approach is scientifically based humanistic impractical. She received her bachelor of Science Degree in biology at the University of puget sound completed her PhD in development and Child Clinical Psychology from the University of Washington. Dr Brenda is former A- junk professor at John F. Kennedy University San Francisco State University and Antioch University West a four time national television host Dr Brenda currently Co host healing quest nationally on PBS and is in development for a new project with Sia Net C. Net TV Dr Oz. Dr Drew and today show CNN and many others regularly book. Doctor Brenda as a guest. Pert A groundbreaking author. Dr Br. Wade's four books. Include Ninety nine things you wish you knew before falling in love power choices. What Mama couldn't tell us about love which she co wrote with Brenda Lane? Richardson and love sessions a guide to transforming relationships her fifth book. Unchain your love. The modern love guide is due in two thousand fifteen dodger. Brennan also contributes to the national and international publications including bridal fantasy o the Oprah magazine Essence Forbes Ebony Ladies Journal Tone Journal Jet Heart and soul in match dotcom Welkom Brenda. Welcome welcome welcome. I'm really glad that you're here and I would. I've already done the introduction of your wonderful background and I would like to just give it over to you and tell us about who you are now. Wow well. That's one of those questions that is fun to field and a little bit intimidating. But I want it. I thank you Cheryl for the opportunity to sit and just talk in a deep way which I know you are the wall into heavy deep conversation with and who I am is probably more the evolutionary story. Starting out as a little girl. I'm the second of seven children. I have five sisters three big girls my brother and the three little girls. I'm the second over here in this set. Okay and that's important because I think it really shaped who I am in the direction my life took. I had aim miserable childhood. I was very very depressed and acted out in my own sort of quiet ways. You know failing in school and stealing quarters and eating candy all day to get high off the candy and just never quite being able to hold onto who I was but I had these moments when I would lie on the grass on the playground and just look up at the sky and I could feel this soaring feeling just pure joy. Those moments were fleeting. But they were so precious and as went along my path. I acted out all sorts of things getting in abusive relationships. And I think that because we're looking at this whole scenario with Lee football player over Ray Rice being cut from the NFL and now possibly the NFL Commissioner. Because he knew about this terrible incidents of domestic violence and did nothing and it made me remember some of the things I went through a very young woman. So you're passionate about his side's very passionate about honoring everyone's humanity and of course if a woman is being struck by a man she's being de humanize. She's not a person. I was struck as a child. I was being made into an object. I wasn't a person so of course as fate would have it. My mentor was the person who was one of the originators of the whole field of humanistic psychology. Dr Virginia and I just got lucky and I was so depressed for instance. It's it's absolutely divine order for you. I believe to remind at that time. I didn't know I just thought well I'm going to have a free the -cation and I mean it goes stay for thirty days in this retreat with where it is woman is. I didn't I didn't care and that was wakeup time. It was wake up time and I know that you know all about wake up which is so prior to that. I was just so depressed. I felt like I had this big cloud pressing on me and I thought invisible. How did you get rid of that depression? The first thing was I was doing hard research and the Monkey lab at the University of Washington. Med school prematurely. Born macaque monkeys and that lab was perfect for me. It was in the basement was dark windows. It smelled horrible because we had monkeys there and it was one of the I. Think the second or third largest primate Latte in the United States was huge very important. W This kind of research and at that time I was just so lost that I started having these anxiety attacks that went with the depression. So you were in your early twenties late dairy early and a friend took me to the student health center because I had a terrible anxiety attack on. I didn't know what it was. I thought it was having a heart attack side God fair and the doctor who will never forget chooses tiny woman Rebecca Welles story. Remember her name and she said to me after she examined was nothing physical. What do you think is going high said? Well I figured it having a massive anxiety attack. She said yes she said. Why do you think you're having it? I said Oh you know I'm working. I'm working my way through school a little and I gave her my little story. She said No. That's not why it's topical year having the anxiety attacks she said you're having it because all this is going on in your life and you're sitting there cool as a cucumber talking about it. I thought that was a good thing that I kept it all inside and she said No. It's exploding yeah so. She took out her prescription patent. Wrote some is putting their medication. She handed it to me and it was the name of a therapist. Okay all God show. I ran up those stairs. It and it took me a year to begin to feel better but when you say how did you become on depressive with a lot of hard work. Well it's it's it's hard work to be Living Day day today with right especially what's going on today in the world everything is is bubbling up all the negative stuff and inequity and Blah Blah Blah Blah. And you know it it forces individuals to do the same thing. I believe. That's what it takes to be free and we. I think we all want to be free. Everybody does I like what you just said about individuals being forced to deal. We have to deal with our stuff. And there's this place whereas a collective you know as government as a as a body that's huge half to do. I'm watching it. Can Turkey Syria and Egypt? People are coming young people especially in saying we had enough of US going down this road anymore. Well it has to be global but it all starts within the individual. Yes that's the whole point. You know degree more and and you know the the hardest part I think the the biggest fear for people that delve into their stuff to free themselves is the fear of getting stuck in their emotions. Yes because you know you cross one is afraid of their emotions yet. If we don't completely experience the emotion and completely express. I have this little thing. I call the threes with emotion. You must experience and express and that converts to energy and then we can use that energy and if people would just do that one thing it would make such a difference in free are well. Not only free and emotional. I learned the hard way. And it's all part of of the evolution of each individual humanity. Well we keep emotion inside the research shows. Clearly it makes sec. Oh absolutely whatever. Because we're afraid to face and I was talking with a physician recently from Mexico who has an alternative medicine clinic there and they can diagnose the emotional cause of every illness they see Joel Sang at which side of the body showed up on. What kind of tumor? It is versus another kind and they can diagnose exactly the emotional calls. I've used. I love Louise Hay for years. Yes one of the things that I did want to say is that you know once you start delving into the past you know inequities that happen you abuse whatever it is and you can let go of it and free yourself and crying is part of it and you know crying. It cleanses the sole exactly so. That's so important to do I several years ago. Gosh maybe thirty years ago I was up at a resort up in Doing a mudbath and this mineral waters who towns yelling and I had a massage there up in Calistoga and and he was a therapist to and he told me this was like a wake up thing for me he told me says it's so important to do primal therapy. Yes get all those feelings out. That's the priority and I truly believe I mean if I hadn't done the work that I had I wouldn't be where I am and that primal therapy. I mean years ago you know well. Everything is energy and this whole idea of emotional energy being available to us. Because it's there it's either going to be suppressed where we can't use it or it comes up and there's a healthy way of course to express it takes practice you know. It's not something that I mean. From my experience it takes practice to also be able to communicate that any healthy way. Yes with your relationships right. You know you mean we shouldn't be blaming and bashing each other you know. This is what I do all day every day. Every book I've written is about relationships. And how we learn these patterns because if you come from a family like mine where there is so much trauma that my parents never got to heal showing up as African Americans in the deep South with Jim Crow and the terrible things that they had to face. I can't even imagine it and I face my own share growing up but there's one hundred times words and they came to California so that we can have a better law love. God bless yes God bless them but they never healed the trauma and so they acted it out. They didn't know how of course not but the point is the point I want to make. Is We have an opportunity now and it is important for every person to seized the opportunity to heal. And if you think you've got nothing to heal I'm sorry think again. It's a pay me now. Pay Me later situation and everybody knows that it. It allows us and because my specialty you know my work is with couples with relationships and that comes right out of my childhood experience of needing to heal myself needing to look deeply at how my parents created a relationship where they were never angry with one another. My mother was sort of Nag. My father and he go in the bathroom closed the door. Turn on the Faucet take out his electric shaver and saying Oh oh and then we all knew what was going on what he thought. She's sort of petered out. He would listen and sometimes it open the door and he'd see US hovering he is. She died in come on out there so they never thought they never dealt with anything between them and my dad. Was this sort of romantic guide. Who never stopped courtship with our own. It was wonderful but the anger and the trauma came out on us kids so this was the beginning of me really looking at relationships because I swung this way and this way. A very romantic guys or the abuser. There is no middle ground sometimes. Same Guy in the same body both patterns right. I totally can relate so for me you know. After I worked with Virginia. Sit here I got to spend a whole month doing simulated families and looking at how family dynamics were crafted and sandstone. I got to the place where understanding me was the basis of I. I had to lead the monkey lab. Oh my goodness I lab and I went into clinical work and I've never stopped working on my self since then it's the key. I mean that that's a given. That's an everyday thing I mean. Just like with my meditation and prayer every every before you even get out of bed. Yep I'm with you there. That's important because that keeps you grounded and keeps keeps you balance you know and love love? Love Love Love Love. That's right we need more than anything on this planet issue there. This takes me back into this whole conversation about self healing because to love others really requires doing this. Work has the big discovery for me was compassion that I lacked compassion for myself. Oh so that means you lack compassion for others projection. It's it's part of it. It's part of it. I think that sometimes I did this little trick on myself. I lacked real compassion. Very hard on myself action drag harder werner that sort of thing and picking relationships that didn't honor me but I could be so nice to other people. I SWUNG WAY TOO. Far Right. Became a people pleaser. So there's overdoing right. What I thought was compassionate real. Compassion is just being able to be with my own feelings and honor them and be with yours. Don't think honor them and it is the cornerstone. I believe of a healthy love. Relationship of course is to be able to open the heart and just being that place. When I'm working with couples. I was working with a couple of couple of years ago. They came in because she was cheating and he was. Of course quite devastated. He came home from work and discovered her in the shower with boyfriend and he was on a business trip. He was supposed to be away and he can home early to surprise her surprise And she was devastated that he caught her should he was hurt and angry about the whole thing and he was shattered and the key for them was to get to compassion for one another and it took more work than you can imagine. Actually get to compassion. Once they got there I wish I could say gee that was great in the marriage was saved once. He got to compassion for himself. He said you know I deserve more than this. Because it wasn't the first time I deserve more than this. I don't want to go through a third cycle of catching you cheating. And she had to come to grips with Wi-. She needed to do that and destroy all of her relationships. Yeah so I'm just saying. Compassion can be very healing but it can work in a relationship can work so that one person can outgrow negative pattern but not necessarily that that marriage can be saved well Because you do the Love Money. I'd like to focus a little bit on that. Yes our seminar is is to. You know he'll that relationship with money. Apply unconditional love when people go well. What's unconditional love? It's amazing that they they don't have a full understanding. Yes you know and I just read I don't have it verbatim but I just read what the Dalai Lama said and really love is just without judgement. Let's beautiful it's so simple. You know it really is. It's simple and well. Money is one of those things that we have a lot of judgments about and Anna relationship. Is You know the number one reason for fights leading to divorce over money financial so I often tell couples when I'm working with them. You know all these workshops around the world and retreats and take people unspiritual quests and money is part of everything I do. Because of three things that I believe lead to fulfillment our love money and save a selfless service so if we can get those three handled and get them in balance we have a pretty good shot at having a healthy and having a fulfilling life now when we talk about money in terms of relationships the first thing I tell everyone I work with is that money is a stand in for so I liked it that you said unconditional love right after you started talking about money because truly we get it leaks. It's manipulative. It's control. Y- no no and that's how you know I. I know I was raised a little bit with that. Control factor except that. My father and mother gave me the leeway to go make money and manage my own money young so. I appreciate that that they were just very important. Yeah it's a way of honoring you yes and couples. What I find is people tend to find someone with a money pattern that is similar to their own out. Those who are watching. I want everyone to have a chance to figure out their money patterns really quick way to get to it is you know. Just ask yourself. What was my mother's favorite saying about money right? Exactly I mean that's the room. What was my father's favorite. Tang of dad wasn't there. That's a money pattern. That means you were unsupported. And you're going to react to that your whole life. So my mother's favorite saying of course was shed to goodies When it came to love she taught us mentally. Want one thing. Oh but Intel's what the one thing. Oh I had no idea what the one thing was. Yeah Yeah and then with money. Of course it was. Money doesn't grow on trees. Yeah and it was always this anger. Money doesn't grow in trees along with you may time we asked for something so most people have a money doesn't grow on trees or have your own money. I know a lot of women especially women of color are told. You can't count on men. Have Your own money because that's a pattern for African American women that came from the time of enslavement. Right because you can count on anybody. Being there your family could be taken away. Your children could be sold away. You could lose everything in humanity. The man is there inhumane. But these patterns persisted and nobody understands where they started. So if you have a mother like mine who said money doesn't grow on trees take a look at where that came from and trace it back as far as they can and your family and you're going to find a history in the family that created the pattern and finding yourself today story act into it now we can change it by backing up and getting right to the history. I had to do that in my own family. Three generations. Four generations back. My people were still enslaved because my grandpa was born in eighteen ninety the African people were freed in eighteen sixty five so that means his parents and when he was thirty he married my grandmother. Who was fifteen? So these money pattern Scott reinfected because it was about fear of scarcity fear of loss is loss was real and you know what I find. Very interesting is I've known a couple of billionaires and multimillionaires and how they have fear of yes I know many ah many mares and billionaires and one of my billion Hawaiian factor. Yeah one of my billionaire client said to me. I know I'm sick because I won't spend my money appropriately. Do Well on myself. I won't spend it and I said you're right so let's get to where that came from. Of course it was what you just said. It was growing up slowly. Elaine come a lack of love and a lack of being valued so these words we use to describe money worth value net. Worth and the words we use to describe valuing ourselves self worth my value is a woman or person and all of these things. They overlap interest. Your money earns interest. How much interest do give yourself is it. Posited interest negative interest so I always ask people to look at the words that describe money. The words used to describe yourself and we usually find they're aligned. Absolutely thank you for sharing that. Because that's wonderful information for the viewers. I mean even though we've talked about this but you heard different wonder- wonderful person so all thank you all the other people that will hear it and and well. This is your sweet talking. Yeah and with couples one of the things that is so crucial to me in my work with couples is that we keep coming back to love. Is that most people think they know how to love. And the reason we get tangled up with love is that we actually have to do the work to learn. How so I like to say to people? Sheryl do you drive a car? Do you have a driver's license? How much time did it take you to learn to drive that car and get a license? Yeah with we took just that much time right toe. Learn how to love. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of wealth. Transformation we encourage you to apply the Information. You've learned with our wise guests to make your life better and make good changes. We appreciate you more than you know for being a part of our podcast when you were moved or motivated please let us know how the show influenced your life emailing at Dr Cheryl dot transformation at gmail.com for a free consultation with Dr Cheryl to see how she can benefit you. Further please visit Cheryl Shire DOT COM or call. Four one five two four six six eight eight one as a gift. You can get Doctor. Cheryl's booked wealth transformation integrity integrity integrity for only the cost of postage of seven dollars. Ninety five cents until next time feel healthy and happy in your wealth no matter where you are in your life.

Brenda Doctor Brenda Dr Cheryl Dr Brenda Wade San Francisco University of Washington United States Dr Cheryl Shire California Dr Brenda Doctor host and producer Dr Brendan David Thoreau Dr Drew Brenda depression Disney Corporation
121 - Dr. Brenda Wade and Dr. Cheryl Ep.2

Wealth Transformation Podcast

25:38 min | 1 year ago

121 - Dr. Brenda Wade and Dr. Cheryl Ep.2

"Are you so full of fear? You can't even talk about money and wealth. Dr Cheryl is showing you. Shift your mindfulness with your wealth relationship. Most people don't even like to talk about money from a personal level. You can learn how to get past the fear and talk about money and wealth and free yourself to a healthy relationship no matter where you are in your life. Are you ready for some good changes? This really affects all areas of your life. It's time for the wealthy transformation. Podcast our special guests this evening. Is Dr Brenda Wade? This is the first segment of a two part discussion with Brenda psychologist television host keynote speaker founder of love money and see the seminars author. Dr Brenda Wade is best known for her. Dynamic love centered approach to transformation. She has earned numerous awards as a psychologist keynote speaker. Workshop leader author television host and producer. Dr Brendan known for her. Knock on the live. Interactive delivery offers keynote addresses and presentations on optimal health and success to corporate professional and generally general audiences internationally. She her presentations have been hailed as legendary and as a keynote speaker. Brendor doctor Brenda leaves audiences standing on their feet cheering but above all inspired with the takeaway tools to keep building success. Dr Brenda has consulted for. Mca The Disney Corporation. The Canadian Government San Francisco Fire Department and many other starter. Brenda chaired the Francisco. Human Rights Commission serves on the boards of various community organizations and has received multiple awards for her work in the field of domestic violence. Hiv and AIDS and service to family and children. Dr Brenda a clinical psychologist. In San Francisco. California specializes in couples and family therapy with a private practice that reaches internationally a protege of the world renowned author and Therapist Dr Virginia Sattar. Her approach is scientifically based humanistic impractical. She received her bachelor of Science Degree in biology at the University of puget sound completed repeat in development and child clinical psychology from the University of Washington. Dr Brenda is former a junk professor at John F. Kennedy University San Francisco State University and Antioch University West Afford Time National television host. Dr Brenda currently Co host healing quest nationally on PBS. An is in development for a new project with CNN net. C Net TV Dr Oz Dr drew and today show CNN and many others regularly book. Doctor Brenda as a guest. Pert A groundbreaking author. Dr Wade's four books. Include Ninety nine things you wish you knew before falling in love power choices. What Mama couldn't tell us about love which she co wrote with Brenda Lane? Richardson and love sessions guide to transforming relationships her fifth book. Unchain your love. The modern love guide is due in two thousand fifteen. Dr Brin also contributes to the national and international publications including bridal fantasy o the Oprah magazine Essence Forbes Ebony Ladies Journal Home Journal Jet Heart and soul and match dot com. This is the second segment of a two part discussion with Brenda. Wait Week till just that much time to learn how to love and I hung conditionally. Well let's start with just learning the steps of love way way to unconditional takes work for some couples just to get the first step is how do I speak to you? In a way that honors use a person isn't attacking lamey babies create. You know yeah exactly and it's like so it's learning how to get those steps it's true is true and and letting go and you know. I just would love to see everybody have that metaphysical just knowing that. There's more than enough just like there's there's enough money circulating on the planet for everybody to have all seven billion. It's true we have eight to ten million dollars. Those first thing the first thing we have to do is again going back to what did I learn A. That's what that's how my value my value as a person so one tool that I want to offer the viewers if this is okay with you is after you discover what your money pattern is match for mom a match for dad or some Amalgam of the two swinging back and forth as a FAV- for some of us the important thing is to say. Now how can I take that pattern and not turn it around into a one? Eighty one hundred and eighty degrees from sick is sick or sorry but how can I move it to a place that I feel and it takes us Alf love and it takes one step at a time? Even if it's a baby step it takes you know but as long as you stay with it you know the Assay sedulously discipline you just keep at it keep at it. You know peeling peeling the law and having the steps having the steps and sometimes repeating step so I know what my pattern is and now I'm GonNa Adjust the pattern so that I use. I have a question that I asked people to use. Will I love myself more if I do this with my money? Will I love myself more if I spend it over here or invested over there or say that because some people I've worked with one guy who had made a magnificent fortune in the arts wonderful magnificent fortune he lived in a basement apartment and it could not get himself to buy his boyfriend an appropriate gift. He wasn't doing it for him so of course there was. That's right verse. Apps first step for this particular guy was to learn. What was an appropriate amount? We literally had to come up with now. What's an appropriate amount to spend on gift for a guy whose guys millions and millions of dollars in the bank and he said? Well I really should buy my boyfriend a birthday gift. That's at least worth four hundred ninety nine dollars. I said that's a good start. Yeah that was a good start for him so he had to marching. That's the take the money out of the bank and go and spend that five hundred dollars on a gift and it was just saying you know what I'm sure it was? It seems small but it was huge and then all the feelings that came up he was terrified. He felt somehow he would be used and then abandoned because he had been abandoned which is wide all day in the bank pattern pattern pattern pattern and so we can be helpful. The first step is to see them and see where they came. Crores of the minute. We see the family history. We get compassion. The next step is we're going to shift it sometimes. It means I'M GONNA take money out of bank and spend it. Sometimes it means I put it in the bank and I don't end up with the patterns exactly but money and love are as you know inextricably linked how we use. Our money has everything to do with how we feel about ourselves. Be they overspending under earning peel. What I call money. Belichick's the feast and famine people. That go up and down. It all comes from. I'll hear back in those family patterns again. Well I was fortunate. I had granted always said Save. Your money saved your money. No matter what I'd hear her and I still hear her. Save Your money very important is. My parents weren't very good managers so you were able to use grandmother as your model instead of your parents which makes all the difference now. Here's one of the big secrets. How we handle. Money is how we handle our love lives and I have found so many people myself included. Murderering how I spend money and how I am in my love life so you heard me say earlier. The little people plate laser was at work. People pleasers always using their resources to take care of other people's so I would just spend every many usually to help somebody else to take care of someone else and it's very challenging for me and I'm working on this. I want to be completely candid. I'm get it out. I'm working on TV. That's my big thing right now. Hello yet they see receiving because it is so easy to go. Giving for somebody a yeah. It's the the lesson that's it's the journey that I'm expanding on and then I'm working on good for you. Will you have my wholehearted support right back to you? Thank you working on it here. I'm making all these discoveries and I'm working on my fifth book and the last book I wrote was ninety nine things you wish you knew before falling in love and of course money is a part of it so but in this new book. I'm getting to break some new ground and to really bring a free thing that I've discovered about myself and all the different tools and one thing. That's very different for me. Is Understanding how these old patterns can be transformed body emotions mind and spirit So I've created this four quadrant model that I used years and years and years ago I think in my second book the I wrote a book for African American women called. What Mama couldn't tell us about love with a friend of mine? Brenda Richardson. And in that book I had a chance to bring all the family dynamic work but in this latest book we go beyond that and ask what kind of dynamics to we have in the workplace in our community and how pieces. That ticket is huge. It is I mean what? I'm what I'm taking on with. My movement is huge. You know transforming that relationship yes and it has to happen no matter what. It's I mean it is happening and all the negative stuff is coming up at. It is happening exactly really happy that it is happening and I will continue this good. I'm glad needs it out there in the big picture out there indeed and connecting the dots. So that this is all grounded is important to me. You know one of the things about doing that. Monkey brain research. It took me a while to realize that was an essential part. Not just me hiding out when I was depressed about an essential part of hard science and being grounded able to we literally were exactly but being able to Ryan's as a way to understand what's going on in the brain and the body and connect these dogs and I'm so happy that the science the scientific community is actually waking up to the spiritual dynamic. You know yeah I mean you know admitting that they know that there's that force exactly. That's a huge step. Well we have so much research now as you know Herbert Benson the Harvard School Mind Body Medicine. We have Larry Dossey with all the prayer studies right here at cal Berkeley. We've got the center for greater good doing research on gratefulness and forgiveness and looking at Stanford Stanford as well Stanford in the Shyness Clinic Passion ahead. Fred profess thread. Yes come yes. We talked about forgiveness terrific. Yeah I love. His forgiveness work but the the shyness clinic is at Stanford doing work on compassion and how compassion is one of the ways to heal that social anxiety and again. It's having compassion for yourself. It's the only compassion for it all starts with within yourself. Everything does it does. So it's like hello wake up and you can be free and you can love. Freely can dance freely. You can do all the wonderful things that we're supposed to do to make us happy to allow us to be happy if we just focus on those things and and take one step at a time to heal it one step at a time and I do find. I know this isn't true for everyone. But it's true for me and I found a lot of people that appreciate having a research. Based set of tools and techniques that fit together smoothly so that you can use them and be able to use them in a systematic way and a grounded ways very important in of course. Then there's the those that that you know can do it and not totally be ground. Yes I mean depends on what it is specifically you know this but absolutely do you wanNA share anymore about the football situation. You know I mean it is important you know. I started out many years ago. Leading a group in San Francisco for men who have been convicted up domestic violence and it was the first domestic violence intervention program and it was a justice diversion program meaning. They were convicted and they were GONNA get jail or they. WanNa get my group okay and I had these batterer 's sitting in this group with me. I think it was on Thursday nights. I don't remember it's been a while but the judge was wise enough to give me a probation and parole officer. Who Mr Pugh was his name. Mr Pugh was seven feet tall. I kid you not know and well over three hundred pounds and he was in the room with me while I lead the group now. What I learned doing that group is that batters can change. And that's very important. Hard work takes a lot of focusing on where I learned the pairing. How I feel about myself being able to answer those questions about family history and then most importantly having other men confront and hold that batterer accountable then. I flipped to the other side of this issue. I was the chair of the Board of La Casa dillas Madras which is the shelter for battered women and their children in San Francisco was the only shelter for battered women and one fact is there are more shelters for animals than there are for battered. Mom Yeah I thought that was interesting. Is that nation organization? Line okay. Many workshops for animals and for battered women so we have a long way to go in terms of value wing. Women appropriately providing care for women when we have one million women a year ending up in the hospital because the battery it is still one of the leading causes of death for women. Is You know and thirty. Seven percent of all battering starts when a woman is pregnant. Oh my God. I didn't I wasn't yes thirty. Seven percents very high so with my background in this field. I've been paying close attention to what was going on and you may remember back the OJ Simpson of course issue at that. Same time. that O. J. was going through the trial of whether he'd killed his wife Nicole or not. Lend aller Who is somebody I was working with at the time and I greatly admire producer? Television host news reporter brilliant woman. Lend US said. You Know Pee wee. Herman was caught in a movie theater playing with himself right. I remember and he lost all his endorsements lost. His television job lost everything I remember. Jay was convicted of battering and he didn't lose anything so lend US said Gee it seems to be a bigger crime in America to play with yourself in a movie theater then to your wife. Wow then think about it. So we have the football commissioner. Who saw the video? Apparently this is what's being alleged. Solve the video of Ray. Rice knocking his wife out cold and not doing anything to aid her. That anyone could see on the video and not doing anything about it letting you. This sensational sick six sensible. It is sick but again it says something about in the third book I wrote is called power choices and a lot of it is about honoring the feminine. And why in my estimation we are afraid of women femininity. It takes us back to our conversation about feelings engineer. What men are still afraid to deal with the feminine? That's incited them that exactly. It's about feelings. Yeah it's about feelings because we equate emotion. Amenity look with the media with what what would they educational live. Churches and the education are doing to those role models. You know I mean it definitely has to change because it's not allowing men also are males to to feel comfortable enough to communicate their few. Exactly you know so. I mean this is huge. It's a challenge. It's a big challenge to own that if we put all these pieces together now that we grow up with this brain that is a miniature recording device as a child and we take everything that was only here in the family that got passed down. Nobody had an opportunity yet to heal. But it's up to us to go. I have the opportunity. You're watching the show. You can read books. You can take classes and seminars. Everything we need is available. We have the opportunity. Our ancestors didn't have to say I can own my feelings. I own mind that I can honor you as food. I can handle my money appropriately. I can create a relationship. That's a healthy. Yes it all ties together so absolutely thank you. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about? I'm a huge advocate of education because when we educate ourselves on a topic. We're back to that business about having a driver's license we need a love license. We need a family license. We need to study these things. That are huge. Parts of our lives that we get no training for. And that's why I started my seminar business because I thought Oh my God. I've been studying all this because I needed it right. I've learned a lot about the research and I've been teaching it anyway either with battered women with men who are batters over here with people who'd abandoned their children who were abandoned. I was always out some place teaching and I thought I'm going to create one place. People can go and as I continue to learn and grow. I can put it all here. Yes yes and help help others assist other and I have a gift for your viewers. Oh wonderful sweet anyone who would like to have a free class with me. Just send a note to Dr Brenda Way Dot Com and say I watch awake. Oh okay if they say that your viewers awake with show and they will get the class and this class is going to be just a taste. It's only sixty minutes. It's a Tele seminar but it's live so people can ask questions and we're going to cover just four things understanding your body your emotions. Your mind your energetic self and how you can take these four things and integrate them so that your money and your love. Life work more smoothly. And I'll guarantee you're gonna come away with something you can use sure absolutely and that's for you and your viewers you well. I'm always looking to learn every day. So you know there's and you can always learn even if it's one of the whole thing that will pivot you to the next level that's right and that's what it's about. Just keep pivoting to the next level keep learning keep getting freer keep loving more and I liked that pivoting. Yeah No. It's just another word but I had an image of my mind as you said it. You know pivoting okay. Civic because Russia whatever requires a lot. I mean yeah you know and I realized how important it is to be flexible. You know because if you're not you're gonNA break you know emotionally physically whatever you know so. It's well this has been wonder all so much. I love that we've covered all this wonderful wonderful educational information because this is what what it's all about in in healing our humanity. Yes that's what it's going to take so in our times coming down to an end already. I was like Oh. We're like two four minutes ago. I thought Oh my goodness we're almost out of time. So thank you thank you. I appreciate your guests I. It's an honor to have you here and I look forward to seeing you the next time. Beautiful and thank you. Thank you Cheryl. Blessings We hope you enjoy today's episode of wealth. Transformation we encourage you to apply the Information. You've learned with our wise guests to make your life better and make good changes. We appreciate you more than you know for being a part of our podcast when you were moved or motivated please let us know how the show influenced your life. I E mailing at Dr Cheryl Dot Wealth Transformation g mail DOT COM for a free consultation with Dr Cheryl to see how she can benefit you. Further please visit Cheryl Shire DOT COM or call. Four one five two four six six eight eight one as a gift. You can get Doctor. Cheryl's booked wealth transformation integrity integrity integrity for only the cost of postage seven dollars and ninety five cents until next time. Feel healthy and happy in your wealth no matter where you are in your life.

Doctor Brenda Dr Brenda Wade Dr Cheryl San Francisco Brenda Richardson Dr Brenda Way Brenda Mama Dr Brendan Dr Oz football host and producer Canadian Government San Franci Francisco CNN Dr Cheryl Dot AIDS Brenda Lane The Disney Corporation
S10: Infamous: Ted Bundy Pt. 1

Parcast Presents

47:44 min | 1 year ago

S10: Infamous: Ted Bundy Pt. 1

"We kick off this new month of Parkas presents with a truly infamous name. Ted Bundy. No one has the campus killer Monte committed dozens of murders over the course of his four year rampage, and continue to captivate the nation after he was caught. If you enjoy these episodes and want to hear more about history's most notorious murderers follow the series serial killers free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of abuse, murder and sexual assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. It was a clear January day in nineteen eighty thirty one year old Stephen. Michaud drove down highway sixteen in Raeford. Florida lush green fields stretched as far as the I could see. Insects Hummed, but once Steven Pass through the gates of the Florida State Prison. He entered a different world. Inside blue skies gave way too hard, fluorescent lit interiors, and despite the chilly temperature, Stephen began to sweat. Stephen was about to enter one of the highest security facilities the state could offer as he was escorted down the prison corridor by a team of armed guards he could hear his heart pounding in his ears, after all Stephen was no FBI profiler or police detective. He was just a journalist. His entourage of guards took him through one last secure door. Stephen steeled himself as it swung open. Inside, a man sat at a metal table, dressed in a pale orange prison issued uniform a chain around his waist. Stephen hesitated almost shocked the inmate before him was a regular looking guy in his thirties handsome, even with is as clear blue as the Florida skies. The man smiled widely journalist, beckoning him to sit down. As Stephen took a seat across from him and hit record on his tape player. He had to remind himself who the man on the other side of the table was. He, was no ordinary prisoner. Or just a charming acquaintance. He was a monster incarnate. Stephen was face to face with Ted Bundy. Hi I'm Greg Poulsen this is serial killers. A podcast original every Monday. We dive into the minds of madness of serial killers this week, recovering the brutal murders committed by one of the most notorious serial killers of the twentieth century. Ted Bundy. I'm here with my co host Vanessa Richardson Hi everyone you can find episodes of serial killers, and all other par- cast originals for free on spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream serial killers for free on spotify just open the APP and type serial killers in the search bar at podcast. Grateful for you, our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know we're doing. Reach out on facebook and Instagram at Park, cast and twitter at our cast network, and if you enjoy today's episode, the best way to help us is to leave a five star. Review wherever you're listening. It really does help. This week we'll unpack Ted Bundy's traumatic early childhood as well as the events that chipped away at the last of his humanity, precipitating his first eight confirmed murders. Next week we'll track Ted as he embarks on a killing spree that ends in the mutilation and murder of dozens of young women in cities across the US a bloody rampage that spurred multiple arrests and trials, leading him to become one of America's most iconic murderers. Ted Bundy was born, feared are Robert cowl on November, twenty, four, th nineteen, forty six in Burlington Vermont. Mother twenty two year old Louis Call gave birth to Ted in a home for unwed mothers. The identity of Ted's father to this day is unknown on his birth certificate. A man named Lloyd Marshall is listed. Ted's mother claimed that Marshall was a thirty year old former air force pilot however years later, she mentioned another man a sailor by the name Jack Worthington. Neither of these men however have been confirmed as Ted's true biological father. Some theory suggests that neither Lloyd Marshall Nor Jack worthing ten existed at all leaving Ted for all intents and purposes fatherless. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode. Please note Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks Greg. Researchers have found that young children lacking apparent have difficulty forming deep interpersonal bonds, and can develop serious emotional issues and adulthood. These individuals sometimes have a tendency to react aggressively or angrily to situations, others might consider to be neutral. According, to mental health expert, jared brown with the Minnesota psychological. Association this behavior stems from a combination of perceived abandonment and attachment issues. But, despite the absence of a biological father Ted Bundy was raised in the shadow of a different father figure one far from the example of empathy, but he so desperately needed. After giving birth Louise didn't intend to keep her son. She left the baby boy at the home for unwed mothers Vermont, and returned to Philadelphia to live with her parents, but for months his mother agonized over the decision to give him up. Ted's grandfather demanded that she bring the boy home. Louise's Father Sam Cole decided that he and Louise's mother eleanor would raise Ted as their own. They would tell him and everyone outside the Carter family that they had adopted the three-month-old. They would be as parents not. Louise and Louise was to play the part of her son's much older sister. This was not unheard of at the time. Some families decided to keep their illegitimate grandchildren a secret by claiming them as their own rather than face, ridicule from their communities, but intend Bundy's case being in his grandparents, care was far more tumultuous than being raised by a young single mother. Sam Carl Ted's grandfather was known to be exceptionally ruthless man. He was an alcoholic with a violent temper. and was reportedly cruel to animals. Some accounts claim that Sam kick the family dogs and would throw the neighborhood cats around by the tails. But his abuse wasn't just limited to pets Sam also went on frequent violent rampages in the family home. He said to have pushed one of his daughters down the stairs because she overslept and may have also abused his wife Eleanor a timid woman who suffered from severe depression and Gora Phobia. Eventually, eleanor never left the house. It seemed no one was left unscathed from Sam. cowles wrath, or at least no one but little theodore. There's no evidence that Sam abused his grandson. According to Ted, he was never the victim of his grandfather's violence or of any abuse. For that matter. In fact, he loved Sam and even looked up to him. Ted Often recounted his childhood, an idyllic, almost unrealistic way, and though he was far from a reliable narrator, because there are no documented accounts that he suffered childhood abuse. He very well may have been telling the truth. Though we'll never know definitively if ted suffered any sort of abuse, physical or psychological at the hands of his grandfather, there's no doubt that he witnessed the abuse of his female relatives at a very early age. This experience would have surely shaped his perception of manhood, and very possibly his violent tendencies. According to social psychologist and Abuse Specialists Donald Dutton. Children who experienced domestic violence are more likely to develop an abusive personality. Dutton found that male children in particular were at a greater risk than their female counterparts of becoming abusers. This was especially true in the case of young boys who witnessed abuse against others rather than being directly victimized themselves a circumstance, strikingly similar to the one young Ted Bundy was raised in. However Ted, only lived under SAM calls tyranny for first few years of his life in nineteen fifty, when he was four Ted, and his mother Louise, moved to Tacoma Washington to live with relatives. Ted was devastated to be taken from his beloved grandparents, who he still believed were his adoptive parents, but Louise was determined to start a new life with her son far from the abusive household she'd grown up in. In. The summer of nineteen fifty one louis met Johnny Bundy at an adult singles night at the local Methodist Church, the too quickly fell in love, and it wasn't long before they were married afterward Johnny, formerly Ted giving him the name that would become so infamous decades later. Ted Bundy. But despite this gesture of love and acceptance Ted was never very fond of his stepfather. He described Johnny as dimwitted and resented the fact that he didn't earn much money. As a military cook over the next ten years as louise and Johnny added four more children to the family, Ted became emotionally detached, preferring to spend his time alone. As a kid, and especially as an adolescent Ted was incredibly shy and self conscious. He had a speech impediment that often left him stuttering, and he had few friends throughout his school years. He generally struggled to fit in however Ted's memory of his own childhood was entirely different. The picture that Ted constructed of his youth for psychologists and journalists was like a Norman Rockwell painting. He recalled summer days, catching frogs and Playing Marbles and pee wee football with neighborhood kids. He played up the fact that he was a boy scout, and that every Sunday the entire Bundy clan went to church. Strangely Ted's mother Louise echoed this saccharin picture of his youth. Even after his crimes were revealed, she described it as a very normal active boy. Our Son is the best son in the world. And perhaps Louise Truly did believe this about Ted. After all, he became increasingly skilled at hiding his less savory activities. During his adolescence, Ted began his criminal career as a peeping Tom. He would sneak off into evenings and prowl his middle-class. To Masturbate while he watched women through the windows of their homes, this voyeuristic streak eventually dominated more and more of Ted's life as a teenager, it became an all consuming routine, and he would return to the same houses to watch the same women until the early hours of the morning. As far as we know Ted, was never caught, and as a result, Louise was never conscious of this deviant side of her son. In fact, it seems no one was explicitly aware of Ted's darker inclinations, but his peers always knew there was something off about Ted. In High School, his classmates often said that Ted didn't seem to be all there. He was aloof and never got too close to anyone. He never went drinking. And despite developing into a relatively handsome young man, he never attended school dances, or dated at school, just like at home Ted was a loner of course heads memory of his time in high school was once again different from reality he recounted being perhaps a bit straight edge, but also claimed he was a good student and talented athlete. In Truth Ted's classmates remember him being both a mediocre student and a lacklustre athlete. It seems Ted later over wrote his entire history with the version. He wanted to be true. This is in part because Ted had big ambitions for himself. Resentful of is families lower middle-class economic status. He was obsessed with elevating himself to something he felt was greater more elite. Ted Desperately wanted to be a successful lawyer or even president, but he knew he'd only be able to accomplish these goals if he became a particular kind of person, someone Suave and intelligent, popular and capable, so he started rewriting the parts of his life that didn't fit the mold, and soon he was given the ultimate opportunity to reinvent himself. He went to college. After a year at the University of puget sound in nineteen, sixty, six, nine, thousand nine year, old Ted transferred to the University of Washington in Seattle and went to work reconstructing his identity, he threw out his timid personality, and formed an entirely new persona one that was intense, but likable, intellectual yet all American he taught himself to smile with ease and talk with steady unwavering eye contact with each new person he met, he tried out this new self until he honed it to near Perfection Essentially Ted was practicing the charisma and charm of the kind of politician thought he wanted to be to gain more experience with this political persona firsthand. He volunteered on a local campaign. Around one thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, seven, ted volunteered for Republican Nelson Rockefeller's presidential campaign, working the campaign trail gave him a built in social life. He never had suddenly he had a group of friends, campaign staffers and other volunteers and a variety of political functions to attend. These events gave Ted real opportunities to test drive his sparkling personality with practice. He found he could strike up a conversation easily and fit in at any function. These newfound social skills also landed him his first girlfriend. In one thousand, nine, hundred, Sixty, seven twenty year old Ted met Diana birds a fellow student at the University of Washington, Diane was the kind of woman Ted Dreamed of. She was tall and beautiful with long dark hair, but it wasn't just Diane's looks that Ted adored. She also came from a wealthy family near San Francisco. She was worldly, sophisticated upper class. Ted Swiftly fell in love. The two spent much of their time together going on drives, they traveled across Washington state through dense forests, seeking beautiful views on the mountains Ted, later said they also spent hours Kissing Diane expensive car, whispering sweet nothings to one, another Diane was most likely the first person to truly get close to Ted. She saw potential in him. She was attracted to his confidence and charm, but she felt he could make something more of himself. Because she came from a wealthy influential family. Diane was looking to be someone who could one day provider with the lifestyle. She become accustomed to meaning Ted with his humble middleclass roots had everything to prove. Being with Diane men, becoming the kind of man she wanted him to be, and her expectations began to compound the pressures Ted already put on himself. It only inflamed his insecurity. When Diane graduated from College in Nineteen Sixty Eight. She returned home to California the anxiety Ted Harbert about whether or not he was good enough to stay with Diane began to devour him. They tried to make the long distance relationship work, but that's summer Diane's letters began to dwindle, and her calls became less frequent then she didn't write at all. Ted was devastated. Later he recounted very little about this time. Other than consuming emptiness, he said in there somewhere was a desire to have some sort of revenge on Diane. Would toward the end of that summer I'm serious. I! Just it's blank. I don't know what the Hell I did in that blind spot was ted's dark descent. His slow metamorphosis into the killer. He was fated to become. And when he finally arrived, there would be no turning back. When we return Ted Bundy's composure begins to crumble revealing the murderer underneath the facade now back to the story. In Nineteen Sixty eight twenty one year old Ted, Bundy found himself utterly alone his life in a tailspin. It seemed that he'd been faded to live masquerading as something. He was not no matter how he changed himself, or how desperately he wanted it, he would never be the powerful debonair man. He imagined his efforts at self improvement had led to his first girlfriend Diane Edwards, but eventually she had seen him for what he truly was, and then she'd abandoned him. It was perhaps the most painful thing he'd ever experienced. The end of Ted's relationship with Diane was the first Domino to fall in his twisted metamorphosis, the next his failed plans for the future. That year, Ted dropped out of college records of what he did. During the end of nineteen, Sixty, eight and nineteen, sixty-nine are unclear, but some accounts report that it was during this time. He learned the truth about his identity about his birth. We don't know if Louise ever intended to tell Ted the truth that she was his mother, and not his older sister, but regardless of her intentions Ted beat her to the punch. He found a copy of his birth certificate with Louise's name listed as his biological mother, and the word illegitimate listed near his own. Before that summer. Ted knew who he was. He was the son of Salmon Eleanor cowl. He was a student at the University of Washington and he was Diane Edwards Boyfriend then over a period of just one year, each of those truths crumbled. He had a true crisis of identity, according to psychiatrist and Harvard Researcher Judith Herman Trauma Dismantles the systems that help. Help support us whether they be social, cultural or economic. When traumatic events destroy these protections, we are disempowered. Therefore, the process of trauma rehabilitation requires us to rebuild these systems to restore control over our own lives for Ted Bundy. His trauma recovery fueled his second transformation, and he was hell bent to take back. The power he felt had been taken from him. In Nineteen, sixty nine at twenty two years old, he seemingly became determined to pull himself up by his bootstraps that fall. He re enrolled at the University of Washington and met another woman Elizabeth Clip, for Elizabeth or Liz had long brown hair. She was a plane spoken woman from a Mormon family and the single mother of a young daughter. She was Ted's on again off again, girlfriend. Girlfriend, for the next six years. Ted claimed loved Liz so much that it was destabilizing yet he felt he could never fully opened up to her. Instead he simply went through the motions of companionship, helping a raise, her young daughter, washing the dishes, taking out the garbage, but in reality the entire time he was with Liz, Ted was still obsessed with his first girlfriend Diana Edwards. Over the next three years Ted did whatever he could to make himself into the kind of Man Diane had wanted even while he was with Liz. He was determined to win. Diane back. Ted Threw himself into school and even into more altruistic activities in nineteen, seventy, one at twenty two, he began volunteering at the Seattle. Crisis Clinic, a suicide prevention hotline ironically during this time Ted Bundy actually saved two lives in nineteen, seventy two. He graduated from the University of Washington with a degree in psychology and began applying to law schools. He aimed high submitting himself to Ivy League institutions. At the same time. He also continued his political pursuits working for the Washington State Republican Party. For the first time Ted he was gaining traction. He had a promising career some money and was about to enroll in law school. It had taken time, but He'd rebuilt himself, and in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, three Ted finally felt he was ready to win Diane back, so while on a business trip in California that summer he contacted her asked to dinner. That night Bundy was clean cut quaffed, and as charming as Diane remembered, but he more mature more sure of himself. She marveled at the confident way he ordered for them both and the prestigious law schools. He casually mentioned he applied to by the end of the night Diane was captivated by the brand new Ted, Bundy, and when he invited her to visit him in Seattle, she eagerly agreed. All the while Ted Continue to see Liz Club for one day he would be at Liz's house, eating dinner with her and her daughter the next he would be wining and dining Diane and staying an expensive ski resorts for months he lived a double life and neither Liz. Was the wiser he become incredibly adept at keeping these parts of his life. This ability to live two different existences simultaneously was one of Ted Bundy's most defining features. Al Carlisle the prison. Psychologist who analyze Ted. Years later called this tendency compartmentalization. Carlisle explained compartmentalization as a sectioning off of ideas or events into specific mental frames. A person keeps distinct psychological boundaries between each of these frames in order to keep them separate like different realities inside the same mind. Carlisle went on to say these so called compartments help protect the ability of the person to live multiple and often opposing lifestyles which are relatively immune from detection. This came in Handy for Ted in Nineteen, seventy, three, the twenty six year old seamlessly juggled his to relationships with Liz Diane for the better part of a year during that time, Diane fell deeply back in love with him and Ted seemingly felt the same way he and Diane even discussed. Marriage and Ted introduced her as his fiance to his friends at parties, but that winter everything changed. After the holidays, Ted suddenly distanced himself from Diane with no explanation, he halted any discussion about marriage plans. And when she came to visit him, he was irreparable and antagonistic after pursuing her for six years that after a months-long passionate affair, ted suddenly turned cold. Diane was heartbroken when she returned to San Francisco, she wrote to him begging for an explanation, but he never wrote back. She eventually called ten furious and yelled at him. Why was he doing this? His reply chilver to the bone. He said flatly I have no idea what you mean. Then he hung up. It's possible that Ted's pursuit of Diana after all those years was nothing, but a power move away to hurt her in the same way that she hurt him an eye for an eye if this is true, and he had always intended to make her fall in love with him, only to reject her. It would mean the moment was literally years in the making a deliberate sadistic plan. However there's a possibility that Ted hadn't intended to break up with Diane. Perhaps there were other factors at play. Shortly before the break-up, his grand plans of attending a prestigious law school fell through his ivy. League applications were rejected. His L SAT. Score didn't make the cut instead he was forced to accept admission to the University of puget sound, a small college located in his hometown of Tacoma. Ted was devastated. He hated himself for not being better for years he dreamed of becoming a successful lawyer, and in some ways it was the entire premise of as rekindled relationship with Diane without that future he may have felt the need to reject Diane before she learned the truth, he certainly felt a consuming sense of failure as Ted Sod, his future was dimming the goals he had pursued for more than half a decade had disappeared in a puff of smoke, and so did his self control. On January Fourth Nineteen Seventy four, twenty seven-year-old ted took a short walk from his apartment at the University of Washington to a nearby housing complex. It was a familiar stroll. He'd made several times before for days. Ted had observed the buildings bottom unit from his car. He discovered for university. Students lived there, three young men and their lone female roommate eighteen year old. Karen Sparks Karen was a freshman at U. W. at a dancer. She had a pretty girl next door. Look with a kind face and long dark hair. She slept in the apartments. Bedroom fairly separated from her male roommates. Just after midnight Ted quietly broke into the apartment and entered Karen's bedroom. There Ted stood in the doorway crowbar in hand. He approached the bed where the young woman slept peacefully. Her breathing steady Ted's breath. Was Rapid. As. He watched Karen's unconscious body. Her dark hair splayed on the pillow. He felt his mind begin to spiral. His blood surged through every artery then he slammed the crowbar into her skull. Once, he started he couldn't stop. Again and again he bludgeoned Karen Blood, spattered his face, and his clothes in his rage, he broke a metal rod from her bed frame, and sexually assaulted her concussed body. After he was satisfied, he slipped out of her bedroom door and into the night. The next day Karen's roommates assumed she was sleeping in for most of the afternoon, it wasn't until seven pm the following night that they found her unconscious lying in a pool of her own blood, but miraculously she was still alive. The injuries Karen sparks sustained that night left her with permanent brain, damage and physical disabilities, but it was only the start of Ted. Bundy's reign of terror one that continued for the next four years. Coming up, Ted Bundy commits is first documented kill and begins a murderous rampage that rocked the Pacific northwest now back to the story. In January of Nineteen seventy four twenty. Ted Bundy committed his first known attack and sexual assault on eighteen year old Karen sparks a freshman at the University of Washington. Karen managed to survive the brutal attack. Ted had attempted murder and failed, but it wouldn't be long until he tried to get. That Winter Ted was enrolled in law school at the University of puget sound at the beginning of the semester Ted diligently attended his classes, but soon his normally perfect attendance faltered Ted began skipping class to stock young women around campus. He case their apartments, observing their comings and goings while sitting in his ten Volkswagen bug. He also resurrected his old peeping Tom Habits. He watched beautiful coeds for hours through their bedroom windows. As they went about their nightly routines, it was better than anything he could find on TV. However. Ted found his next victim not by prowling the streets around campus, but by tuning into the radio. Twenty one year old Linda and healy was a senior at the University of Washington as well as the host of a popular radio show. That reported the weather conditions for local ski slopes. She was well known among snow bunnies in the Seattle. Area Ted was an avid skier. He picked up the sport while dating Diane when he was trying desperately to rub elbows with his wealthier peers while. For Diane, had died his passion for skiing live dog. Like many skiers in the area ted, undoubtedly tuned into Linda's reports, but eventually he was listening for more than just a friendly voice, announcing the daily snow conditions. He was casing his next victim. In the early morning hours of February first nineteen, seventy, four less than a month after breaking into Karen Sparks Basement apartment Ted broke into Linda Healy's home. He snuck past the rooms of four sleeping roommates and intimate as better. There, she lay fast asleep, but Ted didn't take any chances. He immediately bludgeoned her in the head, knocking her unconscious. This time Ted had a new plan. He wasn't going to murder Linda in her bedroom and risk being caught instead he abducted her. With Linda out cold Ted removed her now bloodstained nightgown and dressed her in a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. He then made her bed concealing her bloody sheets and carried her away where Ted took Linda next is unclear wherever it was, he raped her and murdered her, then he left her body on the side of Taylor Mountain over thirty miles east of Seattle, it was a horrific sequence events, the first performance of a routine Ted would repeat dozens of times, but Linda Healy's disappearance wasn't just the beginning of Ted's bloodlust. It was also the start of a massive investigation. The next morning when Linda failed to show up to the radio station to broadcast her daily Ski Report, her coworkers knew there was something amiss. Linda would never just not show up to work. She was responsible, girl, bright, successful, and well known in the community, not the kind of college student to disappear into thin air. The authorities expected foul play from the very beginning. When police searched Linda's bedroom. They found several items missing including a few pieces of Linda's clothes and her house keys mysteriously, the back door was also left unlocked. Something Linda's roommates insisted she had never done before. When detectives peeled back the sheets on her perfectly made bed, they discovered a small bloodstain upon further investigation. They found Linda's blood soaked nightgown in the closet. It was clear now. Someone had taken Linda Healy. It was all too familiar to the Seattle PD. They had seen a crime just as brutal barely a month before and only blocks away. The attempted murder of Karen sparks. Finally, the police had made a connection, but it would be months before the investigation would gain traction. After Linda's murder Ted was exhilarated at around this time. Liz Club for his long term girlfriend noticed a distinct challenging him. His mood shifted at the drop of a hat. One Minute he was in high spirits has charming as ever, and in the next is is went dark. Simple arguments escalated into threats and broken furniture. It was the first time had seen him skirt towards violence his. Habits changed as well though Liz and Ted reportedly had a tender love life up to that point, he became aggressive coercing her into anal sex, and insisting they experiment with bondage. But handcuffs in the bedroom with Liz wasn't enough to satisfy Ted. He continued prowling the streets of Seattle hunting for his next victim, and during the spring and summer of Nineteen, seventy four. He killed half a dozen young women in quick, succession. Sources vary on the time line of Ted Bundy's killing spree, but according to author and rules book the Stranger beside me. Ted's next victims were claimed in the following order in March Ted abducted nineteen year old Donna Manson from Evergreen State College in Olympia while she was on her way to a concert. Later. He confessed to decapitating her and. Her head in lists fireplace. Her remains were never found in April almost exactly a month later, Ted abducted eighteen year old Susan ran court from central Washington State College and Ellensburg as she was walking to a film screening. He murdered her and left her body on Taylor Mountain. Only a couple of weeks later on May Sixth Ted expanded hunting grounds. He murdered twenty year old Roberta Parks a student. At Oregon State University four our south of Seattle. Three weeks after he returned from Oregon Ted spent the evening with Liz and her family. Liz's relatives had gathered to celebrate her daughter's baptism the next morning everyone was in high spirits. Liz, who had been feeling troubled about Ted and his recent bizarre behavior filter worries ease as she watched him chat with a family member laughing and it's big infectious way. He was back to his usual charming self. Then suddenly, Liz watched as an expression changed, it was like witnessing a storm drift across a bright sky, suddenly his face went dark, and he excused himself from the table. Ted left early that night. Without a word of explanation the next morning. He was late his daughter's baptism. Liz's thoughts immediately flew to her greatest fear. Ted was cheating on her with another woman, but the truth was so much worse. After he'd excused himself from Louise's Family Gathering Ted raped and murdered twenty two year old, Brenda Ball. His fifth confirmed victim. After a night of butchery, he spent the next morning at a baptism. Ted Sudden departures soon became a common occurrence more than a few times Liz fell asleep next to ted only to wake up in the morning to find. He disappeared in the middle of the night, while Liz silently kept note of Ted's strange behavior. The authorities also identified a disturbing trend. Every month a new college age coeds seemed to disappear into thin air, and by that summer the Pacific northwest was gripped in terror, walking around college campuses began to feel like living horror film hitch-hiking, which was a popular way for young people to get around the time stopped almost entirely. Girls in Seattle were even advised to travel in groups and to avoid walking through alleys. Perhaps the most eerie detail of mysterious disappearances was the fact that each of missing women borough striking resemblance to one another almost every single victim was young, white, attractive, and had long dark hair parted domino. They looked like. Diane. The tendency to target victims who have a particular appearance or who resemble someone a killer knows isn't uncommon. These shared characteristics between victims are referred to as a victim profile and Ted. Bundy's was incredibly specific. We don't know if Ted's gravitation. Toward young women who looked like Diane was conscious. It's doubtful that his victims resemblance to his first love was a coincidence. However Ted later denied that he deliberately sought out a particular type of target. Instead he claimed that the only common denominator between his victims was that they were young and fairly attractive. But it's very likely that the strong pattern and Ted's victim profiles was born of his breakup with Diane according to Doctor Mary Ellen O'Toole a former FBI profiler specializing in psychopathy. A killers victim preference is often developed based on a combination of what victims are available, accessible and desirable at the time when a killer begins their murders, and for Ted Dabo gangs of Diane. Edwards were most likely the focus of his blood lost. In the winter of Nineteen, seventy, four, when ted I began killing, he was right on the heels of his second break up with Diane. It's very possible that at that time Ted had an insatiable urge to keep hurting her, even after unceremoniously cutting off the relationship, so he presumably would have been looking for a sort of surrogate for Diana on whom he could inflict pain. With that desire in place Ted looked around to see who was available and accessible, and for Ted, a law student, who lived very near the University of Washington campus, female college students were in high supply. Thus Ted's victim profile was born. and Ted's profile was more precise than most throughout his four-year killing streak. He rarely strayed from murdering his victims, who foul exactly in line with the characteristics he was looking for essentially. Ted had type. And a Seattle police took notice. But while they recognized the pattern of victims, police had no leads on the killer himself no suspects. All they could do watch helplessly. As women continue to disappear across the Pacific Northwest. Their only hope was that the next time the predators truck he'd make a misstep. Leave something behind or bought a murder attempt detectives knew that in order for a killer to become so careless they I had to grow comfortable and for Ted Bundy murder felt all to. Deal. By the summer of nineteen seventy four, TED's transformation into a serial killer was complete with each and every murder. His ego only grew, and his kills became more and more brazen. That July his arrogance finally outranked his own good judgment. Ted Abducted and murdered two women on the same day in broad daylight. July fourteenth, nineteen, seventy four was a beautiful Sunday afternoon at Lake Sammamish just east of Seattle. It was a busy day for the park. Nearly forty thousand people had come to enjoy. The lakes cool waters and to picnic on its shores. But Ted Bundy had different plans. Ted arrived at the lake in Casual Beach Clothing and wearing an arm sling, he began approaching young women, explaining he was having a hard time loading his sailboat into his car with his injured arm then he asked them if they would be willing to come to the parking lot and help him out. Many women politely declined, but to agreed to help the poor injured man. Nineteen year old denise. Ted Second victim that day. Had left her friends to use the park bathrooms when she encountered this seemingly helpless Ted. doubtedly realized her mistake as they approached his car, it wasn't a pickup, but rather a tiny vw bug with no sailboat in sight, but by that point far from the crowds of people at the beach. It was too late. Ted's first victim that day had been a beautiful young woman. He spotted sitting on a blanket and a yellow Bikini twenty-three-year-old genocide. Witnesses observed a man approach, Janice they described him as handsome with an unidentifiable, vaguely British accent before Janice walked off with him, they heard Janice introduce yourself then so did the stranger his name was Ted. Seattle's mysterious co ED killer had finally made a critical mistake. He'd left behind one vital clue his real name. Thanks again for tuning in to serial killers will be back Monday with part. Two of Bundy will continue to track Ted's prolific and gruesome spree and explore his sadistic evolution into one of America's most infamous murderers for more information on Ted Bundy amongst the many sources we used. We found the book the stranger beside me by an rule extremely helpful to our research, you can find more episodes of serial killers, and all other podcast originals for free on spotify, not only to spotify already have all of your favorite music, but now spotify. spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast. Originals like serial killers for free from your phone, desktop or smart speaker to stream serial killers on spotify just opened the APP and type serial killers and the search bar. Several of you have asked how to help the show, and if you enjoy the show, the best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at par cast and twitter at podcast network will see you next time her. Killer week serial killers created by Max Cutler and his apar- cast studios, original executive producers include Max and Ron Cutler sound design by one Boorda with production assistance by Ron. Shapiro Carly Madden Travis Clark and Juan Boorda. This episode of serial killers was written by Alex Garland with writing assistance by Abigail, cannon and Stars Greg, Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson.

Sam Carl Ted Ted Bundy Liz Diane Seattle Ted Often Ted Harbert Ted Abducted Ted Second Ted Sod Ted Dreamed Ted Sudden University of Washington ted I Louise Liz Ted Dabo Diana Edwards Vanessa Richardson Greg Poulsen
The Mad Doctor of South Hill

Scene Of the Crime

32:56 min | 1 year ago

The Mad Doctor of South Hill

"The mad doctor South, Hill. That's what they called it. And it fit like a glove. The story of Rudolf on is. Black and white film new are. Wells. Slow Burn that reminds you. None of us are getting out of this thing called life alive. It was nineteen twenty four. The doctor was about as inconspicuous as a tarantula on a slice of Angel Food, cake. And his wife, she had a great big dollar sign. Where most women have a heart. But like a tree falling an empty forest. You can get away with just about anything when everyone's willing to look the other way. Would money. Does it sweetens the world around you? Hiding the bitterness until it's too late. The doctor's wife swallowed her bitter pill in the form of a bullet. Fatal Dose said Cops say she delivered to herself. The Luger pistol still Leonard Comb Dead Hand. But what about all the other bullets riddled the room where she took a final breath. This wasn't going to be an open and shut case. Not by a long shot. And the DOC wasn't going to be much help. When the gumshoe showed up, he was high on the devils. Drink watching Racehorse Grays on the front lawn. There, wasn't a dead woman lying in a pool of blood just upstairs. But I'm getting ahead of myself. To really understand this case. We need to go back to the scene of the crime. And back in time. Before television and radio. World was introduced to the atomic bomb. Back when steriods pandemic, striking down millions of people all over the world back when they started wearing masks every time they left their homes school at work canceled. Even, the churches were shutdown. We feel a lot of frustration. A Lot of resistance petition circulating in the city about wanting to be allowed to have the gatherings again. In fact, they have a board of health meeting on December sticks an absolutely raucous. People there you know hooting and hollering from the back of the feeding. I'm Kim Shepard with Caroline. And this. Is C. The cry. Kim there's a lot to the story, and even though we're going back in time I also feel like there are some eerie similarities in the pandemic that happened in one, thousand, nine, hundred eighteen, and what's going on right now with corona virus, and that's part of the reason why I wanted to bring this story. This week is because it's not just about the mad doctor Rudolph Han, but it's about this period in time when things are just a little crazy like they are right now this period when people would do just about anything to find a sense of normalcy a period, when everyone so hyper focused on their own survival that people like Dr Hawn. Could get away with murder. So, let's go back to the beginning and I think this story really starts back in nineteen sixteen. This was two years after the assassination of archduke Franz Ferdinand and the beginning of World War. One, a conflict that would see the deaths of sixteen million people when soldiers from poor and working class families were being sent by the thousands to join the allied forces overseas. Back in Spokane, the heir to the HEKLA silver mine. Fortune Sarah Smith married Roulston Jack. Wilbur a man sixteen years her senior, she wasn't satisfied with the little cottage that Wilbur had built on the property. He owned in Spokane's South Hills neighborhood, so she gave him carte blanche to spend her money and build her a mansion and boy. Did he deliver this craftsman style? Three story home was built into a bluff just outside downtown spokane. It had panoramic views of the city sitting on nearly four acres of land. Land, the mansion had imported marble gold. Leaf carvings Mahogany paneling with mother of Pearl that had been shipped in all the way from China no expense was spared, and before the last brick had been laid, the couple spent seventy five thousand dollars as about two million dollars in today's money. This type of opulence is far. Spokane is concerned is just incredible. Was the wealth and heard of spokane was actually a growing metropolis at this point, there was over one hundred thousand people living there. They think by about nineteen. Nineteen twenty, there might have been one hundred fifty thousand people living in Spokane. It was it was a pretty big center of Commerce, so there was a lot of mining that was happening outside of town like I said she was the heir to US silver. Mine Fortune. You know it wasn't a small town. Spokane was a pretty big city by this point and I just WanNa talk about the economics of this whole era for a minute right around the turn of the century. There was the progressive era when. When people were really speaking out about things like worker rights, immigrant rights, people are taking notice of the growing inequalities between classes political corruption. That's contributing to that and I talked with Nancy Barstool. WHO's a history professor at the University of puget sound about what was happening during this era of Spokane history, the to foundational pillars of American Life. Democracy and the free market are being sort of constrained and contained by way of industrialization. So there's a real effort to sort of deal with that a little bit. And up through the war. There's a great deal of. Mobilization, so you have for the first time workmen's compensation laws passed for instance in urban centers that will be more attention to helping immigrants find their way through settlement houses. You'll have the founding of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the National Urban League two years after they said their vows. The mining heiress filed for divorce, and the opulent mansion was sold to a local druggist and then nineteen eighteen. The flu. And the world held its breath. In late September, they have a state board of Health Meeting on September twenty eight, and they talk about the fact. Influenza must becoming because they've already seen what's been happening in the east. In fact, they're joking about for wants to. East has something that we can't get that? We don't even want, but they actually admit that there's no question. It's coming I mean even the Chamber of. Commerce prejudice, but they'll support whatever the state board of health decide to be done and very soon after on October eighth. They decided that they have to close everything down. Theaters, schools dancehall Sunday, schools churches fanned weddings and funerals. They require daily reports from physicians. They call for ventilation on Streetcars, and they actually begin to enforce bans on public spitting, and they actually threatened to arrest anybody seen spitting and very quickly literally by the middle of October, healthcare in spokane stretched to its limit. Because we're in the midst of a war, already, a lot of doctors and nurses have left communities all over the country serve in the armed forces them so there you're up there in American training camps here in the states, but they're not available to billion population. So this is a little bit crazy because what we're dealing with right now. Is this flu pandemic? But they had not only the flu pandemic. World War happening at the same time. That's incredible, but the politics seemed to be very similar people fighting for human rights equity, and it feels like what's going on today. It's scary. I mean it. It is scary it is. It's it's incredible. How closely this real and you'll see as we continue the story, it continues to sound so similar. Kim The way you are setting up this scene of the crime I don't know what's going to be more disturbing the similarities in politics in these two pandemics, despite one hundred years, and we're not even dealing with the World War and your case involving Dr Han and that was one other thing that had to be canceled sendoff. SENDOFF celebrations for young men heading off to war, the mayor of Spokane actually issued a statement saying that he would arrest anyone caught at a sendoff celebration, no matter their rank or wealth status. Wow, so on October sixteenth, the city seizes the Lion Hotel to quarantine the sick and take care of people without access to medical care like we're seeing right now in the Seattle area. They have a Kent Motel that they took over to put people in nurses working twelve to fourteen hour shifts constantly they are completely stretched to their limits, and that's when they hit the first peak on October twenty third. There were three hundred new cases in spokane in a single day. Wow! Just like we're expecting to see with the corona virus, this flu of nineteen, eighteen came in waves by November. Things looked like they might be coming down. The city of Spokane began to start opening a few things backup. Folks started venturing out a little bit, and then pretty quickly. They regretted it. There was a second peak in early December and while the city never went into full quarantine. At home what we're seeing now they put up placards on the doors of anybody who got sick, so that visitors could be warned of what might be inside and they also to the anti on the closures as well that something that Bristow says did not sit well with folks. By the time we get to December a lot of people are resisting this. Not Unlike what we're beginning to see right now. So that, in fact, they have a board of Health meeting on December sixth, and it's absolutely rock US I. Mean there are people there you know hooting and hollering from the back of the meeting, and they actually able to have an effect on the kind of orders that come out of that public health meeting in December where we feel a lot of frustration, a lot of. Of Resistance their petition circulating in the city about wanting to be allowed to have gatherings again, it's one of those circumstances in which influenza comes in these kind of waves, and so you don't know when you're really going to be free and clear, and the hard part is convincing people when later waves come on that they have to continue to adhere to the public health restrictions. And let's just throw one more thing into the mix here in the of this epidemic and all this uncertainty, there is some good news world. War One comes to an end November eleventh nineteen eighteen. Our boys are finally coming home. So you have military. Let's be mobilized. Thing families being reunited that had been separated. Some cases from wasn't a year. You have people returning home for more. Who may have some disabilities? And you have six hundred seventy five thousand Americans who died. So you have a population that is an unfamiliar kind of instability. Coming off of what was also really unfamiliar moment in American Life the first war. There's a great desire among a lot of people those who have not suffered safe from the flu of Nineteen Eighteen Nineteen nineteen. Were really anxious to just have things. Go back to the way they were. Let's get back to normal and that's really what this whole history lessons about that feeling of exhilaration that things might finally get back to normal, but that's being tempered by this epidemic. That continues to kill people on a daily basis. Remember we've got those public. Getting are still banned, so they're not supposed to be meeting. Soldiers with big welcome home parties. They're not supposed to be lining up at the port. Is the Navy carrier polls in with? With their homesick sailors, all the frustration with all these restrictions is just growing and growing a volcano. That's about to Burr, and how is the news spreading and disseminating? Now that we have social media it's it's almost like were on overload on information and the latest updates I mean we're constantly down to the second. How did they manage and control a population as they are trying to do right now? With the media I did ask Professor Barstow about what their media looks like at the time, and how did they? They disseminate information and they did have daily newspapers, and they had several of them in most towns, the size of spokane you'd have several daily newspapers that come from different organizations. Some of them would be news media outlets bet like unions would have their own newspapers and just different. You Know Lacey Pe- might have a newspaper in that town so different organizations would have their own publications. There's actually a lot of information that was disseminated to the public, both local stories, but also national and international news. It was really interesting. Interesting talking to answer like how much of a kind of a metropolis spokane already was at this time it was. It was definitely sounds bigger than what I would expect. Yeah, I mean. It sounds like people got the got the message like you've got stay at home but I mean not graduating high school. Graduation is a little bit different than seeing your loved one. WHO WAS A soldier? Come back and wanting to be with them I mean that would be really hard to stay away, right? It's all about perspective. So by nineteen, nineteen, the flu is still hitting the world really hard, but not quite as hard as it had been, and by the roaring twenty s, the wealthy in particular, were ready to come roaring back to the life they knew before the epidemic before the war, and before the reform era they remember the good old days of the gilded era when showing off, your wealth was a favourite pastime of the upper class and the. The more outrageous you could be the better and Dr Rudolf. Han was a bout as outrageous as you could get from the minute, he purchased that South Hill Mansion with his very young, very attractive life. In Nineteen, twenty four, he went nuts. He made what was already an opulent estate, even more opulent, adding a swimming pool, ornate, gardens and statues walkways, massive rock sculptures. He created secret passageways and hidden spaces all throughout the house. There's something about Dr Han that you need to know. He was not actually licensed physician. He was trained as a barber. Isn't that where they had back in the day where there were you were both a doctor and Barbara, you know with the poll that had the color stripes of red and white, signifying that they cut hair and perform surgeries that was like a hundred years earlier than the okay. By this time in history, there was the AMA existed. There was medical licensing that had to happen. You know you had to have a state license from the state in order to practice medicine, you had to go to medical school. So what you're saying is Dr. Han was a great gatsby character. Oh, absolutely, yeah. He calls himself a doctor because he completed a medical correspondence course. He learned how to provide electroshock therapy to his wealthy clients. He would treat everything from a basic upset stomach cancer. He also reportedly performed secret of. In the basement! As you can imagine. He was really well paid for all of this rumor. Has It that he buried a lot of his illegal earning somewhere on the property and Present Day treasure hunters will sometimes be found on this property. Looking really you would think that he would be secretive with all of these illegal activities, but it was actually just the opposite like most of the wealthy folks in the nineteen twenties. He wasn't ashamed of being rich proud of it, and he flaunted his wealth. That was his favorite hobby. He owned racehorses expensive cars boats. He loved aeroplanes. The book Washington Myths Legends by Author Lynn, Brag. She describes the Raucous parties that he would throw one time. He got in one of his fancy cars and drove it straight into the swimming pool. At another party infamous world, war two pilot Jimmy doolittle not only did fly overs, but he actually would dive his plane toward the mansion that would scare the bejesus out of all of the doctors fancy guests. Did he have a practice or did he do his surgeries in the house? Did it all in? And that's why he had although secret passageways. Yeah, he had a lot of nooks and crannies that he created, and he did a lot of the medical procedures in the basement grade with so many people coming and going from what was now becoming known as the Han Mansion it was no secret of what was happening there, but the cops always looked the other way. The first time the mad doctor would ever be taken to court wasn't until one thousand, nine, hundred, twenty nine, and it was over a noise complaint. So. Are Starting to become more widely popular at this point, the doctor though was hard of hearing, so he built a radio tower in the middle of his property with these enormous speakers, and he could actually hear the music from anywhere on his four acres. Unfortunately that meant his neighbors could hear to at all times of the day and night when he was partying. Dr Hawn perceived in the community. You know. Was He like the beloved wealthy? Patriarch who is a benefactor and hands out turkeys to the town on Thanksgiving. He's a pillar of the community. He is a doctor. He's well respected, and as a matter of fact I asked Professor Var so about this I was curious about where medical knowledge was at this point in history, and also about what the feelings were about doctors themselves. Themselves how well respected they were, and this is what she had to say. Radical knowledge was quite advanced. We had what's called the bacteriological revolution in the second half of the nineteenth century, where they're actually finally able to identify Syria through a microscope, they find technology. That's capable of seeing something that's small by the time the first or begins they. They know the causal agents for a lot of diseases from Uganda plaguing. Tubing cough and. Dysentery and malaria. So there is a burgeoning sort of professionalism of the medical field itself to the time you get to nineteen twenty. There certainly is a sense that. When the influence of the comes in one, thousand, nine hundred, and they cannot see the virus, but they have a theory that it is something that's even smaller than a bacterium that they get see, and they understand this is an airborne disease droplet spread disease. Just as we understand covert nineteen. They understood that all in nineteen eighteen. So that isn't as well established. It's highly regarded in the community They are people who carry great respect in their communities would be seen in most cases as Educated because it would have gone to medical school, so they would be people rate status so even though he never had his medical license. It's very likely that no one knew that. I'm sure they didn't because obviously, he only got into trouble for the noise complaint so far, that's the only. Way. They were able to get an injunction to get him to stop playing his loud music. Later that same year he was back in court. He was actually charged with performing illegal abortions, but the jury decided there was insufficient evidence, so he was just lead off now. Interestingly, you won't find any of this information about illegal activity in the documentation from the National Register of historic places, even though they do go through biographies of the people who lived in the mansion. You also won't find a single line about the death of his pretty young bribes. Really Rudolph and Sylvia Hawn had a tumultuous marriage. Marriage they filed for divorce three separate occasions according to Lindbergh's book in Nineteen thirty, two Sylvia claim to be the victim of frequent abuse. She told the court that Rudolph had threatened to run her through with a sword, and even chased her around the house with a weapon, but after just a few months apart, the couple remarried, they apparently said keeping in touch by telephone, which is getting too expensive. How did they get together? And you said she was sixteen years younger than him. How old was he at this time? When he was having these lavish parties, she was twenty four years okay. So sixteen was the original owners who. Hey See all the was twenty four years younger than Rudolf part of the reason why there's sort of this mystery around the Han mansion is because it wasn't just rudolf on his wife. That were a little bit abnormal. Basically everybody who's lived at that home has had a really interesting life so. Into these parties to do you know. Were they happy? Together was I. mean obviously there was turmoil, but they divorced got back together divorce. COBB at three different times there there, there's some strong emotion there. Yeah, I think it was one of those like super strong love hate relationships I. Love You so much and I hate you so much, and there's just so much emotion, and they did not follow the laws of prohibition. There is always drinking happening at the Han Mansion. These lavish parties included lots of booze so I. Think you know obviously that contributes to behavior. That probably isn't very safe. When was prohibition, God? You have to let alone I can google it. Because, there's just a lot. A lot going on. A lot of illegal stuff happening under the guise of like socially mobile people, so prohibition was nine, thousand, nine, hundred, twenty, two, nineteen, thirty. Okay, so they're smacking it right at this back in the middle of it so just a few months after remarrying couple was back in court again this time. It was criminal court. The doctor had broken ribs and Sylvia admitted that she caused the injury. Both of them were charged with drunk and disorderly conduct, but only Sylvia was found guilty in nineteen, thirty, four, the couple filed for divorce, and then reconciled again, and then on May second nineteen forty. We get to the scene of the crime. Cops called the Hod Mansion about a woman found drenched in blood in an upstairs bedroom. Now if you look at the city register of historic places in Spokane, you'll read that this was a suicide. That's what the quarter decided after doing a coroner's inquest. But. Let me tell you about the scene of the crime, and you can make your own conclusions. When the cops arrived the race, horses out grazing on the front lawn as they often were, and the doctor was drunk, he told the cops that he had been outside on the front porch. When he heard a single gunshot, he rushed inside up the stairs and found his wife lying in that pool of blood, a Luger. Pistol still clutched in her hand and bullet wound through her right ear. But that wasn't the only shot fired. There were bullet holes all over that room. In fact, lock had been shot off the bedroom door. A coroner's inquest conducted ruled that death was a suicide but Carolyn. What do you think first of all you know? Women fairly commit suicide by using a gun. The other thing is all of the other bullets. If she was going to do it, she wasn't gonNA. Shoot the lock off the door. She wasn't gonNA shoot multiple bullets all around the room like the more interesting question is. What did the doctor do to to the coroner to sign off on that? And, in this time in this period of time again back to my conversation with the professor, she was explaining to me that there was a lot of cooperation between the upper-class and police during this era, and it had to do with the battle between large companies and unions, and just the politics and the economics of the time the cops were often called to help wealthy business owners with their problems, so it's very possible that the mad doctor had some friends over at the. The Police Department who were willing to look the other way for him, and you know maybe for money, maybe just for favors who think that it's yet another recurring theme with this story is that is still like that today, right? I mean if you've got enough to pay for a really great attorney. Chances are looking much better than if you're poor and you know in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yeah, it's. We're certainly seeing the class divisions the economic divisions. Than that we're seeing now and I don't know which is more extreme. What was happening then or what's happening now? I think that back then it was much more accepted to be super over the top and flawed. Your wealth which I don't think is as popular now, but I do think that the upper upper class are even more upper upper class now than we know so. So. What was the media's response to this? Because we have the law enforcement, but hopefully the media probably gave him a hard time. I'm assuming well. He was in the newspaper when he would be in court. He was also in the newspaper where he would have parties, so it was almost like that love hate relationship like he had his wife, he probably also had with the media. So, the man doctor was eventually convicted of manslaughter years later, but not for his wife's death, the daughter of a wealthy farmer had bled to death after one of Hans illegal abortions, and while the doctors found guilty, he was so old by this time that the judge decided any jail. Time would be a death sentence which he didn't think was appropriate for manslaughter. Off with a thousand dollar fine and a promise that he would never practice medicine of any still had no no medical degree. They never did never had a license. No nothing so we know what this guy's history was. I mean it's just there's so many questions Cam that I don't think we're going to find answers to I. Guess maybe if you don't know those answers. What drew you to this particular story because I've just enjoyed it. It from beginning to end watching your intro. You're like what drew you to this case. Well I think with the crime. One of the things that we like to do is talk about how where something happened. When something happened affected the outcome of the crime or the investigation, and in this case you can clearly see. There was a murder that took place. I'M GONNA. Go out on a limb here. Call it murder. You know the. The quarter said it was a suicide. The let's just call it like it. Is that that the police look the other way to coroner? Look the other way that everybody looked the other way. And it just tells you so much about what was happening. In that time, people were so. Focused on their own problems remember we've got. The pandemic is still happening. We have soldiers who have or have not returned home to their families. A lot of them have been wounded or maybe didn't return at all the country. The people who live in America right now are so focused on just finding stability and normalcy in their own lives, that I just don't think that they really had the energy or the time or the desire to worry about what Dr Han was doing over in his crazy man. There's a double standard for the rich and for the for the poor. You know they're. They're they're always has been, and hopefully I mean I. don't want to sound like a downer, but I. don't WanNa. Say there always will be, but well it reminds mighty that history is like a pendulum. You go so far one way that there's pushback and then you go back right, so we have yes extreme closures, everybody, stay home, nobody leave your houses at. It's like Whoa. Wait a minute. That's way too much and then everybody protests and gets angry, and then it's like okay. Okay, okay, nevermind mind, remind everybody come out and do whatever the hell you want will then. We wind up having the roaring twenty s where the wealthier just going crazy. And spending money and all this illegal activity, all these things are happening and. Then eventually. We kind of swing back the other way again and start becoming more conservative, and it's just it's the same kind of pendulum back and forth that we see even politics I. Mean you look at President Obama? And all of his reforms that he made while he was in office, but there was a lot of pushback from the conservative side it who didn't like all of these progressive changes that were happening, and so we have this pushback. We went way far to the other. We have super-conservative. super-conservative Donald Trump now in the White House, and who knows what's going to happen in the next election cycle, but I can only imagine we might swing back the other way it'll be I. DON'T WANNA say it'll be interesting to see what happens because I feel like we're living it and like those people who just wanted to get back to their lives and unfortunately because of what was happening. It sounds like Dr. Hong got away with murder. You don't have to be a forensic genius to to. That that wasn't a suicide based on the evidence, that was left behind. So, what was his legacy oh? You're GONNA love us. So as as you could probably already tell, our story is quite over yet. So? He was told to practice anymore, so guess what he did with that operating table and electroshock equipment that was in his basement I. don't even want to I feel like this is going down the Kellogg story like maybe there's going to be some diet plan that he like pawns off on people. What what did he do? Know donated all of his equipment, ticking Zag a university for those of you who don't know. Gonzaga is a prominent private Catholic University. In Spokane. We were planning before cove. Cove it nineteen to do an RV trip a road trip to eastern Washington Spokane area, and this would have been the place that we would have I would have wanted to go see to see what this like. This is. The story that I wanted to cover on a road trip to spokane, so I'm Joe. I'm doing it anyway. We may not be able to go to spokane because the stay at home order, but I can still do this story so after he donated his equipment to. He decided he could no longer live in that. South Hill Mansion! He moved into a downtown. Spokane Hotel and it was there in his two story apartment that has sound found him with a two foot antique bayonet. Piercing his heart. There was a big diamond missing from Hans Hyphen. His Wallet was left empty and it sounds like this could have been a robbery gone wrong. In fact, there was an ex con who later admitted to killing the doctor during a robbery, but again with his history. This makes you wonder if there wasn't more to his death as well well, it sounds like Karma of me big time Yup the fact that he was killed with an antique bayonet. I find it hard. Hard to believe that some ex-con who was going to commit a robbery grabbed an antique bayonet to do it with well and think about all the illegal abortions he performed including the prominent farmer, whose daughter died under the care of Dr Han and isn't it just poetic justice that he was stabbed through the heart I thought you were going to say that. He killed himself by putting it. I thought you were going with this like I'm a terrible person. I mean maybe, but I don't know if I put it at two foot bayonet through my own heart. That sounds pretty rough. You know and then what happened to the jewelry right so knows it sounds like he got what he deserved. So what is coming up in our next episode? In our next episode of scene of the crime, we'll take a look at the ongoing investigation into the murder of federal prosecutor. Thomas Wales now whales was murdered in his Queen Anne home in two thousand one, but this is far from a case. Kim. The Department of Justice is still actively investigating and also still has that reward of a million dollars for information, leading to the arrest and conviction of the person or persons responsible for the murder. Law Enforcement believes that Wales was taken out by a Hitman but why? Another great, case, Caroline. Really interesting, just a quick reminder. If you're enjoying scene of the crime shirt with your friends, sure with your family, anybody that you know that might enjoy true crime. You can find us at scene of the crime podcast DOT com. You can also find us on facebook. Twitter Instagram, all the social media channels up. Please again feel free to share. Subscribe to our podcast and ask your friends to subscribe to. I'm Kim Shepard with Carolina's Oreo and this is the scene of the crime.

Spokane Rudolph Han Influenza murder Kim Shepard Dr Rudolf Han Mansion US South Hill Mansion Dr Hawn Sylvia Hawn Hans Hyphen American Life professor Leonard Comb Wells
55: Professor Nancy Bristow

How The Heck Are We Gonna Get Along

50:20 min | 6 months ago

55: Professor Nancy Bristow

"When we shut down production on live studio audience episodes of this podcast one year ago. This week i always assumed. I'd get a week or three off from flying back and forth between the east and west coast and then i'd get right back to collecting my frequent flyer miles but it's now been a full year of various levels of shut down all over the country and my frequent flyer. Mile account is incredibly lonely. And i'm still sitting at home. President biden this week that in administration he will have more than met his original goal of one hundred million vaccines in arms. In his first hundred days he will actually surpass it by reaching that one hundred million mark in his first sixty days and vaccine rollouts in many states are moving ahead of schedule. Cdc guidance on social distancing has relax schools across the country are beginning to reopen to more in person instruction and yet still. There are numerous roadblocks to a full return. If if only there were a precedent for this type of pandemic and tragedy that we could look to for lessons on how to fully move past a worldwide pandemic like this await there is. I'm play can this week. Politico is honored to talk to one of america's leading historian. Nancy bristow is here to talk us through the incredible parallels between the worldwide influenza pandemic of nineteen eighteen and this year's cova disaster. How many similarities are there between the pandemic of nineteen eighteen and twenty twenty. What should we learn from twenty twenty that we didn't learn in one thousand nine eighteen. And how the heck are we going to get along. I you know what is so fascinating about to me is that you didn't write it after this happened. You know i was. I was looking into it and for listeners. it's called pandemic and you wrote it several years ago. Yeah that's correct. I think. I published it in about two thousand eleven or twelve but it took fifteen years to write it so i can work out since the mid nineteen ninety s and who knew that it would be so timely and so important eight years after still you know when when when you wrote it and when you write a book about a catastrophe you really don't want to be timely. While i was working on it. I had a couple of cousins. Who kept saying. Oh you should get your book out this year. We're having a really bad flu season. And they were always last. That i was missing my moments right. Well this worked out better you get to moments out of it. No one wants. No one wants your moment when you write about things as horrific as global pandemic has been fascinating nevertheless to to see the parallels. But i do obviously when talk about those but can see for readers who for listeners. Sorry who don't already know who haven't heard on the news at least five hundred times the past year we're talking about the pandemic in nineteen eighteen between one thousand nine hundred nineteen twenty. What can you tell us how that started. what happened. How it spread around the world and killed what fifty million people somewhere between fifty and one hundred million people were killed that it's is hard to know the numbers because we just didn't have the same kind of public health infrastructure that we have in twenty twenty but probably started in the united states so the name spanish flu as a misnomer which we can talk about later during the spring among american troops in kansas and then in spreading through american training camps epidemiologist. What seemed to be a high number of influenza. Deaths and in post-mortems were noticing a really soggy awful conditions in the lungs suggesting hemorrhaging and this seemed strange but the american population was unaware that they were probably experienced in the first wave of this global pandemic and its spread a with the american troops to europe and to the the battlefronts of the first world war and and into the civilian population as well and by the summer had really spread all the way around the world but wasn't of particular note. People were aware that it was happening. But it wasn't of a scale that made people say something awful is coming but his influenza virus has often do it. Mutated and it. Mutated into a really deadly. I that which we associate with the nineteen eighteen pandemic and literally almost instantaneously in the united states in africa and in europe. This new wave just exploded and it was both highly contagious and also quite deadly and it has an influence a couple of months. It was so so unlike what we have nowadays in our different versions of the flu every year. This was simply one of those mutations of the normal influenza virus it was and that's why we had expected that the next terrible pandemic would be influenza because it mutates so frequently and get the wrong mutation in other words if you get something that is both deadly and it spreads easily human-to-human human and is a completely original virus in other words because of a mutation. There's no Preexisting immunity to it. That's how you get a global pandemic than we'd expected it to be Or some of us had expected to be an influenza virus. That would next bring the globe in a sense to its knees An instead of course we got the corona virus but this this new mutation in the fall late summer fall of nineteen eighteen literally spread around the globe in a couple of months it had more Elodie rate sees me a an infection rate that was somewhere between a quarter and a third of human beings and the us around twenty eight percent of the entire country. Had the flu around. The globe may have been as high as a third of the world population. Some five hundred million people were sickened and then as we say somewhere between fifty and one hundred million people worldwide died in the united states. We lost six hundred. Seventy five thousand americans figure. that used to seem unimaginable. Those days that would have been just a little over a half. A million more deaths than would have been expected from influenza in terms of excess death rates a quite comparable to what we're experiencing today the. Us population was significantly smaller. About one hundred million in those days versus the word. About what three hundred thirty million today. So for those folks. And i said so in the introduction but but you're a historian you are a professor of history and not necessarily a medical epidemiologist type That's not necessarily your field. So why why did you initially want to write about this. And i want to remind folks say it again. You did this several years ago way before we could have dreamed or imagined that we were going to have another worldwide pandemic like this. What made you feel like this was a moment in history that not enough people knew about and you wanted to write about well in some ways. It was a natural next project. Because i was a scholar of the first world war era. I was interesting questions around the power of the state and its relationship to citizens during wartime nocco. Incidentally myself child yet. Nam war era perhaps trying to study issues that were close to me but in a time that was distant to me but the the real story is that i was on a hiking trip with my father and my husband and we got to chatting and for the first time in my life. I realized that my grandfather had been orphaned. Not just coincidentally but as part of the influenza pandemic i knew he lost both of his parents as fourteen fifteen year old. But i just didn't know that it was part of the pandemic i knew about the pandemic. I knew my grandfather had been orphan. I had never put the two together. And once i knew that i was looking for a new project and it just seemed like this was the thing he was the child of two irish immigrants. They were working people. They did not have money So we don't have any information about his experience. He passed away long long ago so for me it was an attempt to figure out what would have been like for him and his parents. They went through this. Because we really didn't have much information about the the literal sort of lived experience of being in the midst of this awful pandemic in the us. So what is the most fascinating to me. And i think to anyone who will read your book or listen to us here is the number of the parallels between what happened then in the united states. And what has happened now. You know. I think a lot of us assume and that that you know obviously the the virus can spread more rapidly in two thousand twenty and twenty twenty one because we are more mobile as a society but we also have so much more information or misinformation being thrown at us that That we have conspiracy theories and and anti vaccine and other issues that certainly rose in arose and twenty twenty. That could probably be tied back to the fact that we were all stuck inside and stressed out in our our our stress levels and the are individuals psychology last year over the past year has been so tightly wound that way to say it but i always have assumed that you know that was a lot of those things where unique to twenty twenty twenty twenty one. But that's not necessarily the case. Is it a lot of the same things happened. In twenty nineteen eighteen that happened in twenty twenty As far as the sociology and the way society reacted and the divisions that happened amongst people in america is that true well the divisions were were somewhat different. I guess there are many many parallels from the failure of presidential leadership to the sort of leads to a scattershot approach. We'd have handled this state by state and community by community rather than with a coordinated federal response which is not the way to handle a pandemic Viruses really don't care about state borders or even national borders I think the ways in which it's landed inequitably among certain populations in the ways in which issues of race and class have really been a profoundly important when it comes to the politicizing. That's where i see it being not quite identical during world war one or i should put it another way. This pandemic was happening during world. War one so there was already a lot of sort of government pressure to behave. According to certain standards so for instance you had to sign up for the draft and you weren't supposed to eat wheat on certain days and so when the public health measures are announced in communities. They're able to politicize that by saying this is part of the war effort if you don't wear your mascara slacker. And this was a time. When i wanted to be accused of being unpatriotic there were laws in place that made a dangerous stance take so very politicized in a sense but in a different way it wasn't linked to party politics. It wasn't in opposition to the public health measures. In fact the politicizing really helped to sell the public health measures during nine hundred eighteen. Now realistically that doesn't mean that there wasn't pushed back and certainly we do see as you say. The sociology of this thing feels familiar because in one thousand nine thousand nine hundred and twenty twenty. There were those who resisted. What was different is i think. At the beginning of the nineteen eighteen pandemic people were so anxious to be told what might help them what might protect them and there was a great deal of confidence ian modern medicine at that time people were aware of if not the name the concept of the bacteriological revolution which is to say modern. Medicine had figured out how to identify the causal agent of bacterial caused illnesses. So there was this hope that it would be possible for science to protect the american population and people were willing to do what they were told to do by the experts because the experts at serve them very well in the preceding decades so it takes a little bit of time for the push back in one thousand nine hundred nine whereas in twenty twenty it was immediate and and based in very different things. Did people trust medicine. Did people trust. President wilson woodrow. Wilson was president at the time. Did he handled it in a way that that made people believe and trust the government or did he use sort of those politicization tactics in order to get people to follow direction. Neither of those wilson did nothing. Wilson never spoke to the american public in writing or in speech about the nineteen eighteen pandemic. Six hundred seventy five thousand his citizens dive and he never spoke of publicly. He was so preoccupied with the war and then with the peace that he did not want to distract the nation and so he actually not only did nothing in terms of communicating about the pandemic or helping to spread the public health measure. He actually was contributing to the pandemic itself He did not slow troop movements. He did not ask the liberty loan kickoff to be delayed or did not suggest that perhaps large public gatherings were a bad idea in october instead. He allowed those to go on. Not likely heightened The death rates in some communities did no one realize that at the time. What did he was not criticized by anyone for not getting involved or was there just general ignorance back then that that he should have a role. That's a good question. I just not aware of people critiquing him. In fact i wasn't really aware that had spoken of it until some other scholars pointed it out to me. So i think the expectations of what the president would do and what the public health Establishment would do were different. The leader of the public health service. Rupert blue was very active public. Health reports was Was a journal that was essentially published every week so public health leadership across the country was getting information from dc and the public health. People were very very active in communicating from the state to the excuse me from the federal to the state to the local levels sometimes disagreeing with each other sometimes locking horns but there was quite a bit of of conversation. So perhaps that wasn't an expectation of the president looking back. It's very striking How little the president had intervened and the ways in which perhaps given his wartime powers could have done some useful things but no. I don't think there really was much criticism of him at the time. There was criticism. Tim for many things but not about the pandemic so we all know that we should drink more water. And i'm bad at it myself. I forget to do it and you know by the time you feel too thirsty. It's totally too late. You're dehydrated. you're lightheaded. I have the same problem all the time. It's really hard to get anything done. If you're dehydrated to but you can snap out of it with this new drink. That i found to be sort of incredible. It's called hydra and it's a drink mix powder and it's got electrolytes in it. Scott sodium potassium magnesium and zinc. And it's made with real fruit juice powder so if you're like me and you're not into just drink in plain water i'll admit it i grew up With sugar in medina. At all the time so i i'm not good at drinking plain water but this has real fruit juice powder in it and it doesn't have any artificial sweeteners or fake colors or any of that nonsense at all. It's all real pure and it tastes really good and it will totally hydrate you proper. Hydration has been tied to better mood. Better focus mental clarity more energy better skin all that stuff. Not being lightheaded. When you stand up like i can get but water alone doesn't hydrate you as quickly as you can drink water and it's very good for you but if you wanna really get hydrated you need to have electrolytes to and so drinks with these electrolytes can hydrate you so much faster. Hydrant can even help you get better rest hydrant. Sleep is a whole new bedtime. Mix that they've made that's carefully formulated to promote restful sleep and hydration hydrant sleep includes melatonin magnesium elstein gaba and camomile to promote restful high quality. Sleep and it's backed by route one hundred percent satisfaction guarantee. If you don't love it send it back. They'll give you a full refund. You do you really need to try yourself to see how good taste and how well it actually works. Try hydra today and take up to twenty five percent off of your first order. Start taking the steps to a healthier hydration habits and start feeling tasting the difference. We've got your special deal for our listeners. To save twenty percent off your first order go to drink hydrant. Dot com slash. Heck horse just interrupt promo code at checkout. That's dri in k. h. y. d. r. a. n. t. dot com slash heck and enter promo code heck for twenty percent off your first order go to drink hydrogen dot com slash and enter the promo code heck to save twenty percent or look for the link in our show notes and we really thank them for sponsoring the podcast hydrate where water meets wellness. What about i mean. We've seen quite a bit of. There's been a disparity to say the least in this in our current pandemic when it comes to the populations that have been affected and certainly fault lines being exposed when it comes to access to certain healthcare to certain information Did they have same similar. They have similar issues then. I mean nineteen. Eighteen america was hardly as developed as Twenty twenty america is were there more deaths in certain demographics. That's one of the things it's one of the puzzles that remains is we just don't have the statistics to to bear out what one has to assume was the case In fact at the time there were some assumptions made based on statistics that african american populations in the us were actually faring better during the pandemic whether that's because deaths weren't being counted though is the big question mark for many of us What's really interesting though is if you step away from. What do the statistics tell us. Because they're not very informative but look really up material conditions. it's very clear that certain populations If they were not suffering death rates in that we don't know they were certainly suffering. Nevertheless what i mean by that is if you were living near the poverty line and you lost a week's wages you might then be hungry. You might not have the coal to heat your house. You might lose your home. You might Literally end up putting children in an orphanage because you can't feed them and so for those who were poorer the influenza pandemic with no social safety net at all to protect them really suffered terrible material devastation. And then we had no social safety net just to be clear and nineteen. There were no federal stimulus. There was no security. There was no medicare. there was nothing at all correct. Exactly right people had to rely on local charities which were often very persnickety would be a polite way to put. It were often so bound up with sort of white middle class social and cultural standards that the poor were treated very badly much of the time when they would ask for aid and then add into that then issues of race. This is a world in which segregation is prominent. it's a jury segregation in the south by law or simply defacto in the north. The reality is cds opened up emergency hospitals or the wings of their regular hospitals. People of color would often be excluded entirely in the city of philadelphia. They opened emergency hospitals for the general public but african americans were not admitted at all. It was up to the black community to open their own emergency hospitals which they did In richmond african americans could go to the emergency hospital but they were relegated to the basement. If you've been in the basement of a hospital that's not a place. One wants to be so again but we don't have statistics to suggest that the death rates were higher. We know that the material conditions were much much worse for certain populations one thing that's really different about nineteen and twenty twenty in terms of how those inequities play out is that there really wasn't anything to be done about the flu. You could only treat the symptoms to keep people comfortable But because we didn't have ventilators we didn't have antibiotics. It didn't in the end probably matter whether you're rich or poor. If you got that virus what was different was. Could you be comfortable with the rest of your family. Be going hungry. Those kinds of issues were definitely at play. How did that inequity. With regard to the pandemic and the actual medical issues in the inequities when when it comes to access to healthcare at cetera. Did that filter over in any way did it. Did it spill over into any other social reform actions like like we've started to try to see happen in twenty twenty just as we saw in twenty twenty i think communities that were facing these inequities often spoke up and i think in particular the black community there was a preacher in dc. For instance the reverend francis grim key who gives a sermon in which he suggests that the flu pandemic was really god's way of trying to convince white supremacists that they were wrong in their actions that by making the people equal before the virus god was trying to to make it evident to the people that really they had to begin to treat one another as human beings we see during the pandemic for the first time Black nurses who had been trying to get access To the the nursing corps in the military finally admitted allowed to minister to the sick among among the military man as so there is this call for democracy in the midst of a pandemic when we really need quote all hands on deck. Do we really mean all hands. And i think there are people who are really pushing for the opening up and the demanding of the rights that were there's But not in the same way that we see in twenty twenty. I think A couple of certainly the contemporary awareness about state violence. It has just become unacceptable. The reality is in nineteen seventeen nineteen thousand nine hundred a terrible racial conflagrations in the united states But they play out so differently There are terrible Destruction of black communities by white White americans who simply invade them And they just play out very differently than twenty twenty one. I think the white community had a little bit. How do i even want to say this. My hope is that there may have been some racial reckoning taking place finally that could have some long term consequences for the good as a result of twenty twenty. The murder of george floyd Taylor and so many others alongside the inequitable realities of the pandemic. I think has laid bare for those who weren't already aware just how unjust systems are and how truly violent our systems are and that. Hopefully that's going to make a difference in nineteen eighteen. The pandemic didn't make a difference if it didn't bring a change in race relations. I didn't create a social safety net. Brought us the nineteen twenty s So we can do better this time. How much. I've always stayed fascinated and we talk about it on this show a lot by the media's role in all of these all all of the problems many many great things that happen are can be attributed to the media. I'm sure but but plenty of things that we wish we didn't have to deal with could probably be attributed to the media to the obviously a completely different media environment if any at all in twenty in nineteen eighteen through nineteen twenty what. What did the media play role to the media play. The federal government wasn't if president wilson wasn't giving much information out if the government's were not as a as loud as they are now. Did the media play any role in helping to spread important messages or negative messages. Either the media was in fact very very important And that's one of the things. I think the important i understand that though it was a very different media landscape they had media what they had were. Newspapers and newspapers were really really important. So major cities might have ten different newspapers. They would have a A german language newspaper. They might have a a newspaper in yiddish for recently arrived. A jewish emigrants. They might have russian newspaper. They'd what is every community had their own newspaper and small towns might have a couple of newspapers and in those newspapers. They would be running stories that they were getting from the international press so they would be covering the pandemic in europe and then pandemic and south america and what was happening in new york as well as what was happening in salem oregon. And what was happening in you know out in small communities outside of the small communities they would tell you that sister susie cousin was in town But she had just lost her mother from the pandemic. So they literally down to the nitty gritty. Also really aware of the pandemic and who is being who was dying. How many people were dying. That was information that people really did have and as a result it was also the perfect venue for public health information and they did routinely run important information whether it was interviews with local public health leadership or publications coming from the national or local public health boards. They were informing the public and generally even editorially supporting The flu the flu mitigation efforts. Editorially were there. Were there dissenting voices each surely What's really interesting is less than it's it's less editors that it is certain parts of the public so there was always resistance to closures in communities around the closure of schools by educators and sometimes parents around the closure of businesses by business people around the closure of churches by church people But usually relatively quickly people fall in line. The difference from nineteen eighteen to twenty twenty. Is that the closures lasted so much. It's such a short period of time so in many communities talking about two weeks of closure not y two months not because that's how influenza works it spikes it burns through the population. It spreads really quickly. And then it either it either drifts to a new slightly different Virus or it has burned itself in that population. We also influenza dies out during the summer months in the warmer months as well so it was a very different sort of epidemiological landscape as you say. I'm not a scientist. So did they know that though. Did they realize that that was the influenza would not be as potent throughout the summer. They certainly were hoping for and they assume right if they did the right things relatively quickly it would die out sometimes. They could look at other cities where had already happened. I live out on the west coast and we had the advantage in one thousand eighteen looking at what had happened in new york and philadelphia another eastern seaboard cities so they had a sense of sort of what the patterns would be an again would suffer. Renewed waves sometimes associated with backing off from their protections in other cases. It may be that it was a slightly different virus coming through the population. I know you know. A lot of your research focuses on the effects in america But one thing that incredibly striking to me in looking at what you found as far as what you write about as far as deaths and the impact of this was that you said something along the lines of no one knows for sure but maybe fifty to one hundred million people died from this pandemic worldwide. Is that right. that's right There are some really serious work with that and those are the those are the best figures at this point. So so let's let's we'll be conservative. You're and say fifty million and around a half million in the united states. But and that sounds i mean. That's that's devastating. It's tragic. But when i look at the numbers for covid in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. We're looking at about the same number of deaths here. In the united states from covid out of him only two point seven million worldwide. The percentage of deaths in the united states from covid as a percentage of the entire globe are so much so much so much larger than the one percent. If that of deaths that happened in the pandemic in nineteen eighteen. Why do you think. I know you're not an epidemiologist but is there. Is there reaction quote me on this right but with their reaction elsewhere. That was different. I think one of the crucial differences is in two thousand twenty. We do have the capacities. To mitigate the disease we know for instance that social distancing and other non pharmaceutical Vengeance make a difference and so we have seen worldwide many communities act very quickly and it's a sort of unified national way to put in place those interventions that can flatten the curve. If you can flip the curve within have other things we can bring to bear including For instance hospitalization. Close care the use of antibiotics for secondary infections. We have other technological interventions. We can use so that you can save lives in one thousand nine hundred and they didn't have those capacities so in nineteen eighteen. It didn't necessarily make well. That's not quite wanna put it. I mean but but but the truth is apparently they did something right. In america in one thousand nine hundred eighteen yep if they could walk away with only one percent of deaths worldwide taking place in the united states versus. I don't i'm not a mathematician at all. I've got a math test with my son later. I'll probably make him fail. I'm but but clearly much much. Higher percentage of the deaths in two thousand and twenty. They must have done something right. Then yeah right. And i think that's what's so interesting in one thousand nine hundred nine. The united states has sufficient Medical understanding to try out these non pharmaceutical interventions. They cannot see the virus. They don't have the technology to identify it but they understand. It's an airborne droplet infection. They know how to convince people. Are they know the kinds of methods they want people to engage in. They don't want them to spit in public. They don't want to share public drinking company longer. They want them to not go to school. They want them to stay out of church and they apply both things in communities all across the country large communities and small these public health interventions than non pharmaceutical interventions. That same things. We're doing now wearing masks. Quarantining closing businesses. They used those across the country and with with differing Success rates depending on how fully they put them in place so yeah they did something right in one thousand nine hundred absolutely even if they know at for sure. Say do try as saying twenty. Just think we know better and we know we we. Twenty twenty. Didn't listen in other words. We had all mean americans not the government but we we have gotten too comfortable with believing that we can beat a disease because we've beaten the flu we didn't get the flu shot every year etc etc. So there's a there's seems to be a level of respect for disease in two thousand and nineteen eighteen that we didn't have that same level of respect in two thousand twenty. Would that be a very bears summary of it though. No i think. That's a fair summary. And i would add one other piece. Which is i think. There was a greater respect for expertise for science for people who really had done the hard work of studying things and had learned thinks verified information in laboratories that said we we believe these are the best things to try and people were willing to try those and to try to have some trust. And i think that's one of the great tragedies of two thousand twenty that we had even better science and and people were convinced not to believe those people. There's a kind of anti intellectualism that has been really fomented. I'm afraid telling people. Oh those guys just think they're better than you. They think they know more than you will. There are people who know a whole lot. More than me on a whole lot of things. When i need information about medicine. I turn to the people who've done medical research. When i need to know which seed to plant in my garden. I will turn to the people who've done research on those kinds of things in agriculture. When i need to decide what's going on with my dog. I will turn to a veterinarian. I can't pretend that's we can't pretend that. Anti-intellectualism started this past two years. It's been going on for a while. It's certainly as it's been it's been made. It was bound up with the pandemic. Though in a way that i was really costly we see the effects of it. Much much more starkly. What what would you wish we would learn from twenty from sorry from nineteen eighteen Even now even as we are starting to see hopefully please a light. At the end of this tunnel here. The aftermath the the effects of of the twenty the nineteen eighteen sorry pandemic beyond the actual pandemic. What are things that we need to learn. Now as we're coming closer to the end of this hopefully that that we can take from the hundred years ago. I think that's a great question and my hope for us going forward is that we will do a couple of things one is that we will look really carefully at what happened that we will do. The intensive study of who did and didn't get access to care and really engage with the inequitable Realities of our healthcare system. That's a lesson that's just sitting there waiting for us to act on it that we will study. What didn't didn't work in terms of getting the vaccine ready in other words in one thousand nine hundred eighteen people just moved on. They didn't wanna talk or think about it anymore. I hope that we won't do that. But that we will in fact continue to talk and study this pandemic and alongside that. I hope that we will also continue to be aware of of the trauma so many people have been through one of the things that happened after nine hundred eighteen is that no one spoke about which means that a lot of people remember six hundred. Seventy five thousand people had died means that there were millions of americans still sort of grieving in the aftermath and that was just unremarked upon and i really hope that we can have in our hearts and in our minds much greater space For for that trauma that so many people will be living with not just next week but next year maybe next decade right. This doesn't just go away for those who've been very sick or for those who've lost loved ones and it would be a really a tremendous success if we could really attend to that grief the as communities families and as a nation and has really as a globe as you i know are very interested in We don't get along very well right now. This should be a place where we should be able to find our shared humanity and a place in which we should also be able to recognize that some of us have suffered much more than others and attend as well. to the realities. That have made that happen. It's it's it's fascinating that you mentioned that because one of the one of the reasons we wanted specifically to have you on this week Is that this is specifically the week where we closed down our live production of our shows and we went into quarantine one year ago this week and our first episode in quarantine. We had a a panel of people from across the political spectrum at the time. And everyone's tone was as you said getting you know trying to understand that this is something that is not to be politicized. This is something that we need to tackle. As a entire country without party lines no parts jimmy cetera. And there was. It was a very collegial discussion with gray of member members of congress from one side of the aisle and very outspoken pundits from the other side of the aisle and it was almost peaceful and we asked the question. How long will this collegiality last and all of them on that call on that particular episode said that they believed that it would stay when it came to to in terms of speaking about this pandemic in this particular crisis. Well let me tell you nancy. Next week it was gone. And we very quickly made this very partisan issue And so it. It's interesting that you say that we all agree. I think we all agree. This should not agreed. The should not have been partisan. But you're right it. It absolutely has become that way For far more reasons than will ever be able to identify on a podcast. But i do have a lot of questions from listeners because we ask listeners to tell them who's going to be on and ask them to send in some questions To our listeners. You can do that if you're listening. You can write in and do that at podcasts. At politico dot com or you can email us or send us a message on twitter or instagram. At politico on shauna from tacoma so not far from you for me. that's where by university is shauna asks. It seems like very few leaders draw contrast to nineteen eighteen. Have they forgotten the lessons of the past two. That's a really good question. One of the things. I really worry about. Our country is is a tendency to not know very much about our past and i'm not blaming here the politicians or any leadership in particular but. I do think that we really emphasized the investigation of the harder moments in our history. I think you're raising a really good question. Which is don't we all have responsibility to be learning the lessons of our past and i think the only way we move forward toward the kind of future we all want Which is a you know. I won't even try to describe the dry. Hope we all want but one in which people are healthy and how the opportunities open to them that they deserve. is by understanding where we've come from one thousand nine hundred. Eighteen has so many valuable lessons for us about how you have to handle this as a national issue. How you need to actually try these. Non pharmaceutical interventions. How which really important that people pulled together and work on this As communities how important is to look out especially for those who are most vulnerable among us and for some reason those lessons were just lost and the end for me a great. The great tragedy of twenty twenty has been how little we seem to have learned from. What was this just obvious. Parallel experience from which there was much to learn so sean i think you're you're absolutely right that we all need to be attentive. I don't say this. Perhaps is why i'm storing is that i really believe that deeply by my go team. Go for for history study. How often studying history. How often do you watch the news and think oh crap if you had just realized that the same problem happened fifty years ago or sixty years ago or one hundred years ago as a historian. Doesn't that come to your mind. We live in a cyclical world. I mean the same issues that we're facing now are credible paralegals to problems. We had fifty sixty one hundred years ago. This is not the only one. I'm assuming i mean. Don't you get that same frustration. A lot i do and yet it's always frustration because it also goes comparisons can also see you help you see what's changed. Think historians are interested both in the continuities and the changes. And you can sometimes see things that make you say aussie there there there somewhere where we've done it right and we've moved forward on where you know we are more humane to one another than we once were My students really relished those opportunities to to see the parallels and the differences. I think of the shootings that just happened in atlanta on tuesday and in my class warning. We'll be pausing to make the connections back to some of the other things we've studied which helps a see through lines to identify. What are the problems that have been with us for decades or centuries that have been really hard for us to solve. Where have we made gains. And why are those easier gains to make so yes. I sometimes had that frustration. But it's it's an essential part of what we do is historic to make those look for those parallels. Look for where we've changed and look for those places where we very difficult to change this one from crystal in austin texas is interesting to me As a as a doctor yourself. A doctor of history. You may be able to help her out with this. She said there's so many conflicting claims. How can we know if we reading sound science. That's such a great question. Somebody literally email me yesterday to to ask. How do i know if. I'm reading good history and i had a really easy answer for that and let me give it a go with with scientific information. We'll just any any any information. Yeah yeah. I think it's always to make sure that the person has evidence to back up their claims in other words. You shouldn't just say do this. Or this is true without helping reader or listener understand where that information has come from Ask what someone sources are. They should be able to provide those An intern think about who is telling you this. Is it someone who actually has done research on that subject matter or is it rather Someone who is coming at from a very clear. Partisan perspectives on that could be a partisan perspective on either side of the aisle. Of course always darren from santa barbara were listener. I'm question darren from santa barbara asks. It didn't seem like modern outbreaks. Like sars did as much psychological damage to the country as cova will people ever feel normal. All we don't tend to prognosticate about the future. It's a question we're all asking. So i understand the question. But i in terms of in terms of after the pandemic of the of of nineteen thousand nine hundred nineteen twenty. You mentioned a little bit ago about how that led us in a way that led came right into the to the roaring twenties. Can we expect another roaring twenties ourselves. And i think we. I certainly look forward to a future. That has all those things that we have missed so much so whether it's being able to hug our friends or being class with my students or have a barbecue in my backyard. I'm looking forward to getting back to that normal. I hope that our economy can be researched. Quickly certainly nine hundred eighteen those communities that had done the best job fighting the flu and had suffered the fewest You know illnesses and deaths researched faster and quicker. So i hope that we will see all of our communities face a good resurgents when i think about getting back to normal. I'll be what i tend to think about is wanting a new normal. I want the good stuff back. But i want us to learn from what we've just been through. I really hope we could out of this with a sense that there are things we should ask ourselves to do better. There are things that we should demand of our government. I don't want to ever see another pandemic in which members The indigenous platinum black communities diet such high rates relative to my own white community. It's unconscionable i i think that we should demand that that kind of thing not be allowed in our country. We should be better than that. I hope will go into a new normal with an enhanced empathy and a willingness to really look at ourselves where we failed in twenty twenty twenty twenty one and and think about how we wanted to be better ourselves and our relationships with one another We we have folks on talk about new books a lot but the reason. We had a doctor bristowe on this week. mentioned but if you're listening american pandemic The subtitle is the loss worlds of the nineteen eighteen. Influenza pandemic epidemic. Sorry american pandemic. It is really a fascinating. Look at something that. I think we did not even realize or remember had happened any well. Dr bristowe new rules. That happened because he wrote the book years ago. But we had we had completely ignored this part of our history And i'm a history nerd myself so it's fascinating to me and i i encourage you if you're listening to go grab it and to to take a look at this and look at some of the parallels we've talked about today look at some of the The things that we can learn. Especially what you were just talking about nancy about not allowing this particular pandemic that we've just lived through to return us to the status quo which is sort of what the first one did and submitted that ben and learning some of the lessons of what they did well then and what we should have done better but not just the could've showed a what a but also looking at the history of one hundred years ago and trying to make sure that we don't make some of the same mistakes and so if if you're listening i hope you will take a take a second to grab american pandemic And and learn a little bit about something that i think we all wish we had known more about five years ago instead of waiting to learn it after we'd gone through a pandemic of our own. So thank you so much for being with us. I i wanna know not just with regard to to you know health care crisis and not just with but as a historian Who has studied so much more about american history beyond just that one pandemic can you take a take us. Give us a second to tell us how the heck are we going to get along in two thousand twenty one klay if i had the answer to that right but but but there is there is. There's something there's some lesson from history to learn right. I think that's it. Which is i think. And maybe it's because i'm historian so i have a bit of a bias. Obviously but i really think knowing the past and really studying how we've come to be where we are right now really can enhance empathy for one another in other words. If you know why people are taking the kinds of positions they take in twenty twenty one by looking back hundred years fifty years forty years last week. It really makes a difference because you can at least understand the stance that people are taking. It doesn't mean you agree with them but it means you understand in a human kind of way how they got to that spot anything. Often we discover In some cases that people have Have reasons for the positions that they're taking so in black lives matter emerged. If you know the history it made complete sense. If you didn't know the history you know many people were upset by it. It's like if you know the history of violence against black citizens of the united states. It remarkable that we didn't see black lives matter much earlier than we have. And i'm so grateful that we have that movement among us now and again. That's so easy to see. If you know the history but without it right people then reach all kinds of other conclusions. That are absolutely headed. Unfortunately so i really believe that empathy comes from studying. Knows that you don't know in those that you don't agree with so i've probably made by you. Know where i stand fairly easily discernible. It's really incumbent on me to really work understand. Those who have who have refused to wear masks those who have promulgated. The idea that the vaccine is dangerous or useful. I need to understand how people came to those places In order to be able to speak with them and try to help us move forward together.

Influenza united states President biden Nancy bristow ian modern President wilson woodrow Rupert blue europe Scott sodium francis grim Wilson george floyd Taylor Politico susie cousin dc Cdc
Dr Angel Iscovich | Travel Routines

The Travel Wins

46:56 min | 2 months ago

Dr Angel Iscovich | Travel Routines

"Welcome to the travel podcast. They might guess as dr on. Health is known as dr already today. Doctor thank you for a great pleasure thank you. I'm really excited to speak with you today. Because your your book. The art of the routine. I i really think we'll help business travelers. I know for myself. I i travel routine but i also know one thing we talk about real briefly was it messes me up when i travel especially The time zone jetlag and it messes up my routine. So how did you get started on the book the art of the routine. So so it's a it's called. Arctic routine and You know over the years when i started in the philosophy and then into medicine and been psychiatry than emergency medicine and then into being in the corporate world in those time doing a lot of travel other business travel I've learned i've kind of i started really looking people. People that were up seminarians centenarians people over one hundred years of age and i studied them. Because we were setting up geriatric emergency departments like pediatric departments emergency department for older older individuals because of their special needs that they have and we were beginning that focus in emergency medicine at the time and it was interesting as i interviewed and studied some of the research how there were a couple of interesting things about people live the hundred years of age and that was that they had a very stable environment. Both physical and emotional around them and that they did things regularly. They did things in a routine the time and not so much what they did. The content of what one does a survey art of let. This is what you choose. That's the art part. The creative part of routine is what you choose or choose not to do or sometimes you can't do break breaks up is that they did things of very differently but they did them very regularly. Whether it was that scotch that occurred every day at five o'clock or even in some of the older folks. I always have a or i used to walk two miles but now i walk only a quarter of a mile with a little bit of help but i do it every day at nine o'clock in the morning and so i noticed the sense of regularity and timing and stability of environment and it got me thinking about high-performers athletes musician it. How did they huddle. Isn't that the case. There's quite a bit of organization structure and regularity rhythm so to speak routine to what they do and then i started thinking about the care. The young you know the other spectrum of the older individuals and we're to earn warmly we try to provide stable environments and and not only teach but have usually organized structure and time in the sort as well as you go into education in that regard And then i started to think about businesses businesses. That are that are that are successful. You start to see that. They have a significant organization structuring certain policies. That make a difference. Excuse me one moment there. I met the airport actually. So you hear a little bit of. That's going off. So i apologize. But but anyway in businesses that are structured. They tend to have a lot of also this kind of element of trying. A good leader stabilize the environment that they work in. They abe allies also when they develop good routines and routines also are what becomes been culturally or even businesses. They become rituals. You know and you see rituals both social rituals religious rituals business rituals sometimes and even individual rituals which are like superstition about how you might travel. You know who properly or you see the baseball players you know how they you know the sort so i became kind of interested in that and ask the question to myself. Why and at least for me in both a theory and in some science. I realized that a lot of this is how we're wired. Our bodies are white. Are physiology endocrinology how we have a lot of rhythm for example circadian rhythms and. What happens to him. grins states. What's happening in the brain in the suprachiasmatic nucleus as we say in the hypothalamus that controls a lot of things such a sleep and and eating and sex in the sword and so In there was a reason why the english have tea at three o'clock and why we have a downer. How glucose and cortisol are lower at that period of time and that And why the the. The spanish culture have a siesta control. Or why they used to say the french and italian cultures would have sex. And what's what's stimulate that. So there was quite a bit of physiology endocrinology that dealt with rhythm and also how we perceive the world. The sun rises and falls. We know the seasons. There's a lot of a lot of that in gaining giving us a sense of certainty feeling more comfortable in essentially in more physiological developing equilibrium and homeostasis. The way our body works both in a micro molecular way and her body. So that's kind of what got me into the the writing of the book and trying to highlight in the art of routine not just individual aspects of what you pick to do but maybe it's more important that we do these things in stable environments and do them regularly and so travel which i read a little bit about is an experience and have them folks is something that that to disrupt really a lot of our our strategic rhythms. If you think of stern animals i kid could around in the book like a lemur. They don't really have much change in time. And if you really think about how we been until most recently short of large migrations which occurred fairly slowly. And still you know we never have had Some of the only species that are now because of our transportation experiencing some of the difficulties of maintaining our environment as we move and as we can. So that's that's a little bit about more about it. Yeah it's interesting because you know even thinking back thirty forty years ago. People didn't travel as much. It wasn't as as frequent you know and now it's nothing to get on a plane and go. Hey i'm going to go to austin. I'm going to go to nashville or we're gonna go to miami you know just for the weekend and at least thirty years people were doing it. No one. I think. I think you're right. I mean i think what's happened with travel into the ability. Now you could argue. This is a conversation more about. Are we doing the right thing in transporter Getting develop any any other real methods of transportation particularly in the united states and a we. We don't have rail we don't and so we're very dependent on now with the demand to move about and For both business travel personal travel. We're very dependent on. Air travel is one rapid changes. Those time zones gets us to places quickly so it it is. It's true we've kind of had to learn how to adapt and you know after nine eleven suddenly routines and started to occur Waiting a security lines multiple lines even now if you travel as i get at times back to europe for business or personally Going to one place through security then to another insecurity that you might remember back. There was nothing much when i was growing up. I've got a photo of my dad coming off a trip from argentina agentina and he was visiting and we're just greeting him right off the plane. You know he just kind of walk off the airplane. There was none of these kinds of concerns in those days so You're absolutely right. It's become it's become a more of an issue but even people who travel You know driving and the sort or even through trains though it may be a little easier are what i find is that you naturally begin to explore to really control your environment to try to travel in a way that you're trying to maintain an environment in a way what i call a time travel bubble so that your body can keep some sense of homeostasis some sense of equilibrium taps and You know it's pretty well known and it both in the business world people who have a jet lag time zones. I've got a lot of data in that regard. have quite a few different illnesses. Whether it's night workers travelers. Yeah would do to sleep. Loss irregularity all the things. Your body doesn't want your body wants to -bility rhythm and regularity in needs rest so So i think how how one goes about an almost natural is what i found brian to to control your environment To try to fit into the time zones if that's the issue to what the hospitality businesses done to make business travelers. i did a study on the hilton's for exhibiting roy. Yeah and there was another study that was done. Actually a steady a photo study. That was done on the hiltons and in this just one one chain and a not not in each particular advertisement that i'm doing for that but basically a basically How similar they really were. And and how the how. The rooms were the same. And how so what you start to see that. It's not just about the routine of how you travel the where you are where you stay and the familiarity of environments looking the same feeling the same. The people dressed the same And that's what you find is travelers now in companies like ours. We have a big budget for travel for travel budget. That you needed to shake the hand and see the people as you're doing a meeting and And of course things have changed a little bit now virtually so that's a very interesting kind of dynamic in regard to business and now it's like when is it important to travel win as opposed to win. It's not Winston how'd you communicate and maintain your connectivity with your with your clients so to speak with your business partners. I've had i've had several talks with with. Bp's and ceo's about that like yeah especially salespeople on themselves. I've talked to vp of sales. And how do you build up a relationship with a new client. If you're doing it this way you know in in in that is true because I think you know one of the things that's occurred. And this is a little more on the behavioral side of the things. I talked about the book with kovic done in disrupting. Our routines disrupted our environments. Making us really understand really understand how important some collateral value. That's happened understand how important our environment our workplace. Our homes are really where we where we are but now In light of the kind of contraction and business Most of the people. I've talked to ceo's and others in fairly large companies others publicly traded companies everybody's kind of contracted and tried to move to a virtual world for the moment. Yeah saw quite a bit of aiding in their travel budgets. Right you know so you and now it's interesting. Because i i was just asked a little while ago about know. What what are we going to do for our travel budget in twenty twenty one and going forward and twenty two. Are we going to be able to contain our businesses virtual as we can or going to have to make some of the appropriate requirements for how to travel you know and and you know in my case eventually traveled of course by when many of us went together was affective for presentation or large meeting merger acquisition type thing to to travel privately in private in a private jets but but it's gonna be very interesting to determine whether you're industry or business you know how you make. That relationship is going to be a valuable to understand when to go and when not to go. Yeah yeah and. I think i think you kind of saying that to start a relationship. It's very difficult to begin a relationship and have a sort of sale or business partnership we haven't seen each other and single subtle movements and things that you see across the table. And i you know i don't know if it was that way that way for you and in business but I always find it the the meeting environment the business environment where you're meeting people for the first time. The conference grew and the strategies related around that. This is why environment is kind of why i focus. Donald port environment is where you hold holidays where people sit right. Who's going to sit at that table when you're going to do the presentation and who's gonna take the lead or who's gonna meet. And what are we so a lot of those things are lost right in virtual urge the virtual meetings so. I think what i'm noticing is that we're going to find a balance You know the the people that are in the sales teams of businesses smaller large. Yeah no that people buy from people they like. And it's hard to be someone you like unless you can be there and interact and get a feeling for people so it. I think that's going to be really I think that's gonna be the challenge. Yeah that's really interesting Kind of balanced depending on what industry. And i think they're also learning where originally everybody who had a off commercial offices was saying. Hey we don't need to have all these bullpens and boots multiple stories. We can get people to be productive. Certain industries are learning right now. And i've talked to them that that when they're doing team related things are not able to be as productive when it's a collaborative team focused versus the kind of thing you can do more as an individual with not utter timed communications things down on on so. I think that's very interesting. But i know that most all of the people i've talked to Have a reduced corporate travel budget at least in the corporate world. I know the company i worked for. Might i mean we used to go to denver four times a year and now we're going to zero and they like it so like we just had ourselves me this week and all sixteen people instead of traveling to denver. Now doing this right. And i think what's important just just as we're talking about this subject is the and it's related to more. The psychology is is the quality of having a really good first meeting or introductory means if you have a really good quality meeting that's meaningful. You can take that a long ways before you see each other again and can use. Virtually the virtual side is a gap. You know so focusing on how to have a good in meaning person as we move now in the future and then using the virtual side for more constant communication were frequent. Because it's easier ride. It's easier to communicate. And i've always felt that with whether you're servicing someone that's a client or otherwise having a lot of communication timely scheduled organized as i like to talk about structured routine Is going to be a very important part of virtual communication More so than Because i've worked with some with companies in in the tiniest of when they have the meetings you know there's i forgot who was the rule that eighty percent of the time eighty percent of the people don't need to be in the meeting right so as leader attempting to make meaningful meetings. You know a meaningful times to meets important. And i think that's important also for travel in the same fashion. Where how do you. How do you get into the right routine to travel to the right place so that you can have the media at the right time you know. It's like you travel. You travel across for example from ram on the west coast to to new york. And unless you take a god awful early flight if you know you're going to be there and then now somebody's got seven o'clock meeting in the hospital and healthcare business. I was in. We're all used to getting up early. Like surgeons new in working so now you know it's midnight when you're into their and you're getting up in the next couple hours. How do you do that and people. On an average. I saw the survey sleep about six hours and fifty. Six minutes is the latest survey that they had on an average. How much people need sleep so the ability to organize your routine as far as when you travel How you travel and how you get into a good good mode of sleep. There's a lot of different approaches to that. And of course in the business that i was in an emergency medicine and hospital based medicine We do a lot of shift work so we have quite a few night. Workers in we learned a little bit how to use the You know really what. I was talking about the hypothalamus. The brain the circadian rhythms work To essentially fool your body where we started to do very Like people work only from like midnight to four o'clock only four hour shifts and go home when it's still dark. Yeah to cure. So we started some creative aspects and in shift work to try to maintain health because whether it was anxiety depression gastrointestinal diseases a really common diseases for not only workers but for business travelers and they're very very well-known so anyway that's a that's a little bit of about that and I think also you know. I used to just as an example. I i noticed my c o i'd review. Maybe an approval travel budget and see that he was staying courtyard. Marriott's saw that he was flying south west and he was servicing. You know half to three quarters of nation crossing at least two times. Maybe at times and i said hey look you know you could stay a west and if you want your we're doing you're doing a good job you know you're you know you you can be comfortable. We want you to be comfortable and and you can travel if you want you. Don't for those right meetings. you know first class. You've got enough points to do that. Type of thing you know and and so he said donna. I've got my routine down. First of all. I like the courtyard marietta's. Because they feel and look the same forever i go i. I like that. Because i know when i get a breakfast. I know that i can get the room. That's in the courtyard. So i don't have to listen. To the periphery outside to noise. And when it comes to flying i know exactly the seat. I want where i wanted. I've timed Exactly where the times. I minimize my stress by maintaining. Might traveling might travel time bubble. So yeah and he did that naturally. That wasn't something that he developed a because he read my book or started our bodies our our bodies Start to learn that when you start to do a lot of that. Your body begins to adapt. You can adapt to a pretty bad routine in a lot of irregularities but eventually it takes a toll it takes you right. Because i i did that. Fly like i go south west out of lax permanent one. My wife knows exactly where he dropped me off. She gets out of the of the airport. We have a little back route out of there in five minutes. I know exactly where to go. I knew where all the restaurants are. And it's just normalcy for me right. So familiarity moved uncertainty. And just like what happened with kobe. Now when you have disruptions interruptions and threats threats of you know your threat to your life so to speak That's when humans move or look. Look to adapt you know and The body is being stressed in this travel mode. It just is and you learned that you can reduce that by this type of certainty having certain team what you do understanding the familiarity the environment. I always stop and get a coffee there at peace coffee because it's there at the airport and then i also know that if is inevitably gets delayed i have a place. I don't mind going over to grab a quick bite for for the rights knack for for for flying. And i'm sure you probably know the seats you like or with rather have you know you know you get your prior like if you're on south west get you can get into your priority. So you're in a group and then so you don't have to worry about checking in and then you always have a place to you. Know what you know. That's going to be right and what i found. Is that just like when i speak about the importance of those two points having a good routine What you can be important to how you do it regardless needs to have regularity and should have as much familiarity. So that if you've got your your group of hotels in the area that you're familiar with that you're doing a constant travel to the same areas or are servicing so to speak clients all in that team that's that again becomes very A very very important to try to develop that As as as a point and other tricks to doing that sort. And how to fool your brain and how to make your stuff more adaptable but But i do believe that. That's the key what i noticed. Is that the sales people who traveled. Well the operations people who traveled. Well they performed better. Were better. They were better at their performance than and they came in if they need it back to the office better rested basically. They were able to do and i noticed that was the case with performers. You know it's interesting in the book. I as many books if you can tell some analogous stories list more entertainment talking about the science right. Yeah but You know. I talk about the rolling stones. Who and this is not akin to you know they've been for over fifty five years traveling there septa generes. They're in their seven anna. And they they. You know the usual thinking of howie artists musician would be you know it kind of a not. A lot of organization structures completely untrue. They have an incredible routine in fact they take their backstage everywhere to be exactly the same wherever they go and they have a time piece to before they get onto. Nine o'clock from how. Long mick jagger for example warms up for forty. Five minutes to does dancing warm-up not just warm up to win they meet together and they have a ritual of busting the crust. I think it's a meat pie. You know that They and so they find a lot of regularity in both the environment. They're in even though there's somewhere else and so what i speak about. That's that's the kind of emphasis in in high performance whether it's in business in travel it's the same with touring professionals sports and tennis hall layers. Yeah and i've and i've seen a myself having been a little bit of in sports Even a i remember young young top southern california number one tennis ranked player and got quite a bit in the region. A little bit nationally decided to go on the tour and wasn't able to travel could not travel and tour If suddenly is used to warming up be hoti warm up correctly before a match at a certain time. How is it if you have any eaten quite at the same time. Where suddenly little stupid biological things like when you have to go to the restroom every they make a difference in the body has a lot of interesting rhythm. There's something called the gastric reflex that when you eat starts to move your bowels. That's a very natural piece happens. You know Or there's a the this plan you'll post-prandial tied which is more prominent when you're young or when you're older which is that after you eat you then later get a little sleepy. You see people nodding off. That are a little older sleepy after eating. You see this in children in the middle. You're middle ages where you're able to adapt to your environment and the changes of your routine's or regularity you're able to to survive to die to adapt better so you don't see it as much but surely photo on jeopardy and otherwise. What's what's the age break break-up of that with considerable finding what's older and what's younger. So i i would say that once you know once one is getting over fifty years of age forty five to fifty you start seeing arguably some of the sciences that are off. These were built to live past. You know damn we start going downhill after thirty five so we start looking at mortality statistics. And how long people live even a hundred years ago. There's a great book called facts. Onus by hans rustling which a lot of people like bill gates and others have promoted a great great book. Shows you how far we've come. We don't even understand how far we've come out of poverty. Know the last hundred years and and anyway might my my point being that now are are were now in an age where we're increasing our longevity above and beyond what everybody's an art yeah entirely and i call it. Well it's the. It's what i call the intersection. It's called tech mandates actually investment term. It's the intersection between technology and humanity anna things like we're our medical sciences today and genomics in artificial intelligence. I'm a. I'm the chair of an artificial intelligence company so i've had a lot of interest and talk about a little bit in a book about with artificial intelligence will tell us what our perfect routines for our bodies are in the future because we now monitor what we do. Yeah so that This is kind of You know kind of it's kind of moving. It's a moving target when you asked me about the age town up because now you see this baby boomers like myself who i think they're gonna live forever and And they're doing these things that i'm not seven years old but at seven years of age and in older You know that you know my. my friend. climbed six point eight mountain and he's almost eighty years old on his bicycle three times a week. So you're sting are advances in medicine and in genetic in genetics and genomics and artificial intelligence coming together that some people believe that. Even though we've had a little drop in in in our town in our our longevity rates in the united states. I saw a slight drop. That long-term if you're born today your chances of living to a hundred are about fifty percent. Wow so that's why you gotta travel. Well that's why you have to travel. Well yeah it would definitely help. Yeah i for me. I mean i definitely believe in your routines i mean i i. I see people that don't have routines and it almost rising a little. I'm like oh my god. I don't have an account. I i went to a store and he was. What do you are you. Are you doing by the airport later. On the way home. i go. Yeah he goes. Hey can you take me to the airport now. Yeah i go. What time is your flight. I haven't looked at yet where you go. He goes israel. What so there's been no no pre-planning no one organization. Yeah litter so. I picked him so we're at a store we drive to house. He picks up a bag tells his wife he'll be gone for a week and driving to the airport and drop them off. He booked a flight on on his phone on the way to their where he's that's his modus operandi right allergy. Yeah well you know. It's interesting because the i had read recently An article that you know there's two they just said there's two type of travelers. They're the ones that are running through the airports last minute and the ones that are on our or more before and and and they said those are the two. They made that be like two personality types. You know they try to kind of explain able to just those two personality types in travel and the and otherwise and of course personalities are a little more complex medically we understand that. There's a lot a lot of different pieces but for example even a circadian rhythms. And i don't know whether you're a you see some people. It's not totally consistent. Some people are night owls in some some people get up early and some have just got. That's how they're wired. It's not just that somebody taught them to sleep in. You know after you the sort but you do find that that both clinically or helping others that that you can adapt but those people are very stressed out people that are night owls and have to get up very early. Because that's when they do they're they're doing a presentation you know so there are times you know particularly about when you do what you do that i become a little more focused on and it's the same a little bit and travel So you know the mornings when you wake up in your court. Your blood pressure's up your cortisol levels of this is the something what's happening to your body. Our really great times to To exercise until about ten o'clock to do very very very diligent very a specific Very detailed kind of work. Whatever that might be you know. I got cheats. That kind of work of it would suit you well to think about what time you are where you're going and where you are when you're traveling on an airplane about when it would be worthwhile to say. Hey i'm going to type up that presentation. I'm going to try to refine this piece right now. That have or i've got i gotta finish this a financial projection or whatever it is. You're doing Or my you know my presentation so it's the same thing so in the mornings are there good times to diligent and then from about ten to two o'clock our really great times to engage with people. Okay each time. You can still be depending on your integrated nisar extrovert personality. It varies but but it. This is a great time to engage snuck in oftentimes through lunch and a two old starting to get over forty five fifties get a little older. You're gonna follow it. You don't wanna be falling asleep but you see this. I see this aboard adding a bunch of board meetings. You've traveled to a board meeting. You have lunch in your lunch off by an hour or two year. Post-prandial tide comes in. And you're you're you're starting to not off you know or something you know it's funny and then but then when it comes to about three three o'clock that time that your glucose goes down to your cortisol goes down. The english have t in the spanish cultures. Goes to sleep right and we go to starbucks or wherever you know off the and get energy. That's not agree. Time to have be having a meeting and trying to do some really technical detailed attention paying type of stuff. I learned that early on. And i see these meetings still on on different boards that i'm on and i say especially virtually now 'cause for different reasons. There's like a three o'clock meeting a financial presentation. I said i'm on the west coast. I'm not going to be any attention. I wanna to be falling asleep to that in my in my business will. We're meeting in person. What we did is we. We learned. That was a good time to to sleep or eat. Or have you ever have sex. Of course we are traveling on a plane. You're not gonna have a ladder lamb but if you can keep your timing of your circadian rhythm to the time that we're trying to integrate into the time where you're going going back. These are some tips that people will do and then some companies now understanding this. I used to do innovation meetings at three o'clock so this was a time that i feed people say. Let's just talk off the top of the head. It looks like you know what. I see where we're just a little down on sales. You guys have any ideas are bad. It looks like there's a couple unhappy clients in the northeast and it seems to be emanating from recruiting in. What are some thoughts going on. So was that kind of meaning which served more than just that purpose but it was more effective meeting. Some companies have just let people go. Leave it three. This was before the pandemic at three o'clock and say i expect you to be doing some virtual work on a computer at seven o'clock. Yeah we're actually if you look at how your body works at after dinner at that time it seems to go back into that state. Yeah so you find people being very productive in detailed in the morning later after dinner time in the early evening You see engagement in the middle of the day and you see really sleep and or more innovative type of things In that time to get everybody's a little different sure but those are some Some interesting too. Good guideline though i mean. That's that's yeah. I do the same thing we we we ourselves meetings and we have people come from east coast time zone west coast time zone and then you know we're we're doing it in mountain time. So it's it's interesting like because i'm doing that and they're like they're already kicking off because there two hours ahead so if it's five hundred for your eight or nine o'clock call. Let's say you talk and you're doing your diligent work there already into engagement period you know and so finally the timing of of import meetings virtual 'cause at the right time Just as it is to know how to travel so you can be and be ready at the right time camp that becomes very important. That's where you know performances the case and as a ceo and as a leader. Sometimes i've had to say look back guys charming and he's got a great spiel on how to sell but he doesn't perform well and there's something going on in this ability to to sell remotely so to speak to sell a moving about so are we as You know sometimes as as business and ceo. Travelers or even smaller entrepreneurs are we aware of that. And i think it's important for For even as been the gig economy you know entrepreneurs small entrepreneurs gig economy to understand some of this This body physiology and then in general why it is important to get a routine you know and i and how to prepare even unsure you. Prepare about when it is that you're going to think about or review something you're gonna present with any of that is in other words some people i read this morning and then i'm ready to go at three o'clock in the afternoon but other people say no i need to prepare in. Have a fresh top of mind right. You know early early on and I was on this On a on a podcast recently Really interesting Fellow well he's world while jackson comedian. Who is kind of saying. Well i don't really have routines. And and i heard this even from a couple friends of mine that was a managing partner of very large international companies. And you know because sometimes people that are creative or even some business people. They feel that they're very flexible. They believe that they don't have routines but that's their routine. The that's also part of it. But i start you start digging a little deeper in i say well you don't just say what comes to mind at anytime. There's i mean routines. And i think there were there. Were just kidding me. You know to say. Tell me that. I do. And i said well. Well i said i drove. I drove a whole different way every day. I like to drive different ways to get to the studio. I said yeah but you got here at eleven o'clock to be on. This time organizers structured to have a call with me didn't you you know and then i asked about when you perform as many performers do whether their athletes the you don't have a routine before you get on stage of absolutely he goes. You're right. I've got to get my head space into the right place. I gotta think about what i'm going to do. And i have a few superstitions. You know as well you know people tell by her team right slash routines and so so Anyway i think that i speak of this In particularly in your show for business travelers and in others. Because i believe that what's happening. Is that in our digital world and so much information coming to a so quickly today that were being kind of distracted interrupted. You know from because we're being shot all this content things you everywhere the how you do it but the what interrupting how you do things and so what happens. Is you know the i know. We've talked about sales guys but you you you see. Hey us this do this theory. In exercise it's You know. It's i really like yoga. I really like A pilates i try plots. Try yoga know. Those are the things you can choose to do but the problem is nobody does these once. They even start. Yeah the mini rhythm or or routine. And what i believe is that the that we're paying not that we should pay attention to what what it is. We do because you can do things that are bad for you right. Yeah habits for you and then maybe don't meet with your actual your own body's physiology and how you do things but i do believe that we need to pay more attention and i think what the pandemic has done and this is what happens. When you're i called a little time bubbles bubble the environment rain in time what you do there you know how the what you put in it. What you do but our lines whether it's A new job. Or maybe you're the head of a new group the you're having to learn or you have a divorce or you have a loss in the family. Our time bubbles bursts throughout life now now and and we can try to find in recreate that stability. Our bodies are set up to finding. We can find you routines and talk to see are pretty lost. Some of them have mental disease but even in the healthcare in hospitals. But we do. Is we give them regular. Give him routine. And i think can travelers business travelers in particular. That's what they ended up seeing. And it's not just the airline gives you the most the best booze you know. Whatever for free as you know as all that it it you start to see the high-performers knowhow to travel. Well in in a little bit of time bubble to try to maintain as much malady away from where they usually are the holy agree. Thank you so much for sharing that. What's the best way for my listeners. To get your book find out more about your or follow you will thank you. The art of the routine is on amazon. You know again on hell iska vicenza. Little doctor is sometimes they call me because that's what it was the corporate world because it can pronounce my name but it's on amazon barnes and noble on sky horse the publishers anti-mine schuster the distributors also. I've got you know my my handled on facebook I have a good amount of lincoln groups of people there that have on there so all all that in twitter in the sort. All have connections to my webpage which is angel iska vich dot com. Again angie seo. The i c. A little harder Which is my authors page in. The i hope. I hope the book brings a little bit of a. It was more to be an insightful book to nutting stories about how important this aspect of human nature is and has a little bit of some tidbits on how to go about it. If you can't figure it out but what is more about the insight in the nature. Hope it's about. I hope it has some value to your listeners. I do too. I i think it will. I mean i totally believe in routine. So and most you know. I've talked to olympic athletes who have a routine i mean when they train and they got four years and the to. Nfl players to beach all players a enemy fighters. It's been really big with because they trained during the day but then most of the night there fights at night eight o'clock at night. Exactly so do they do. They start switching up their training to match so they got their body knows. It's got a performance that time is some of them some of them do and you've seen things where they change the environment to if it's going to be at a high altitude area go to colorado to train you know you'll see that maybe in the time zones the smart You know coaches trainers will move that time zone over. Use exactly what you just talked about. It's not it's a night five You know the entourage of roger federer. tennis clear. That moves on at entourage. Same food that they try to keep everything the size of the physiotherapy everything to keep him. Even as he's older now to perform a high level is trying to keep that equilibrium. Not let that time. Bubble bursts so discounts. Though i again. I hope the book has some insights because it is it is about a high-performance and it's really really are nature. You know how we really are wired And i think there's also for people who are struggling you know. I do believe from kind of more caregiver. Point of view to start focusing on the routine right out of their podcast focusing on not so much trying all these different things a go to yoga pilates. I'll try to change my. I just read a book. That of this sort in. I single what should i do. I said i don't whatever it is you do and you choose to do that. You that your art. That's the art of routine but whatever it is doing in a routine do it regularly and try to do it in a stable environment. You know if you take about. That's yeah i drive a lot. And so like if i have to go to san jose i've been there. I go there four times a year but driving. But now i'll try a different row. Yeah but i make my time. So i have my routine of getting there on time in doing this and that you want to check in at this time to go to the hotel or do whatever you do before you your meetings and you know that's a i think a an eight or nine hour drive for you so i i do. Try and change the route so interesting. Let me just say that because people say to me aren't routines boring. And i said you know what that's okay. We are naturally curious. Humans were always looking for better environments better routines. That's why we're exploring the you know the world humans when they're when the shelter doesn't become good anymore there's war pestilence like there is syria or mia mar or even in our world today with covert what we do is. We're always exploring to make for better survival of ourselves and in very small ways. That's what were doing when you're taking a little bit of a different route to work around here. You're trying to improve upon it. And so you experiment a little bit and my point about it is fine. That's okay that's normal and if you don't like your routine just change it change it. We'll do something else. You can even change the time. I say be cognizant of your circadian rhythms as there's something to the day in the night of life you know but go ahead and change even changed at times but once you start to try it do it regularly and keep keep at it. You'll see if it fits or if it doesn't work so Because i've had people tell me that you know that You know again. Like i don't have routines or really boring and i'm not talking about the what you do. I'm talking about the how back on. Thank you so much again. Appreciate the time. My pleasure really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. enjoy your summer. Yeah take care of youtube by part.

kovic Donald port depression gastrointestinal di south west denver hoti hans rustling Arctic tennis united states Winston nashville argentina Bp hilton baseball roy austin
Public Health Vs. Politics; Lessons From An Anti-Mask Protest

Coronavirus Daily

11:44 min | 1 year ago

Public Health Vs. Politics; Lessons From An Anti-Mask Protest

"Wednesday morning Federal Reserve Chair. Jerome Powell revealed a devastating new statistic in households. People make less than forty thousand dollars a year more than a third lost job in March. Well we're all affected. The burden has fallen most heavily on those least able to bear it. He warned more layoffs. And bankruptcies are possible the scope and speed of this downturn or without modern precedent significantly worse than any recession since World War. Two and the number of people who have been killed by corona virus more than eighty three thousand confirmed so far is probably an undercount. Most of us feel that the number of deaths are likely higher than that number. Because Dr Anthony Fauci said Tuesday especially in the New York City area. There may have been people who died at home. Who DID have slow? Who are not counted as Calvin because they never really got to the hospital coming up anti mask protests in a major American city more than a century ago and the arguments over reopening in professional sports. This is corona virus daily from NPR. Kelly mcevers it's Wednesday may thirteenth across the country. How you feel about reopening seems to depend more and more on your politics. The people want to go back. The numbers are getting to a point where they can just seems to be no effort on certain blue states to get back into gear. And the people aren't gonNA stand for it. They WANNA get back. Increasingly president. Trump defines the issue more as a political argument then as a public health discussion. He's suggested for instance that blue state governors are delaying reopening to hurt him politically. And I will tell you. Look at some cases. Some people think they're doing it for politics here. We go again but they think they're doing it because it'll hurt me the longer. It takes two or to hurt me and the election to longer takes to open up and I can see some of that. Posted all caps tweets to liberate states with Democratic Governors. And he's defended small groups of Antilock down protesters protest that were sometimes organized by his political allies. I seen the people I've seen interviews of the great people. Look THEY WANNA get. They call cabin fever. You've heard the term. They've got cabin fever. They want to get back. These attitudes now show up in broader public opinion polls which suggest the gap is widening between Democrats and Republicans on how quickly to reopen. And while all of this might feel unprecedented it's not the first pandemic where Americans were divided over. How and when to open up during the flu pandemic of Nineteen Eighteen? San Francisco started out as a success story. Thanks to strict public health measures including requiring people to cover their faces. People were fined arrested and jailed if they didn't wear masks. Most people complied and new cases plummeted from the thousands down to just a handful businesses reopened and as life seemed to go back to normal bells rang across the city when the mask order was rescinded but then cases biked again so in January nineteen nineteen San Francisco. We instituted a mandatory mask policy and some people did not react well fact they started to organize. Npr investigative reporter. Tim Mack told me what happened next. Despite the rising number of cases in San Francisco at the time Two thousand people gathered together at a meeting of the Anti Mask League. Which was an organization purely created to oppose this mandatory? Masking Rule. This anti mask league meeting got heated. Some of the protesters wanted to circulate. An anti mask petition. In the end the Anti Masters issued a statement that the New Mandatory Mask Ordinance was quote contrary to the wishes of a majority of the people but two thousand people still represents a very small minority of the public right. So you know if you look at. What's happening in Michigan today? These are hundreds of people in a state of millions and two thousand people in San Francisco at the time while a large crowd did not represent the the popular opinion in San Francisco. Right still it was really interesting case of folks in a pandemic or together to push back against public health measures so the officials have put this mandatory mask order place. And you've got this. These couple thousand liners who are against it but what most people do most people comply and what happens after that. Most people begin to comply and not only that the number of new cases and the number of deaths as result of flu and pneumonia at that time declined Which was the first decline in. Quite some time flu cases went down and two weeks later. The mandatory mask order was once again lifted. We talked to one historian. Nancy Bristow at the University of puget. Sound and she says it's not totally clear. How big of a factor masks were in the total number of flu cases in San Francisco? She says masks weren't always made it the right materials and a lot of people didn't wear them right and it's possible. The second wave was more about the fact that the city didn't close businesses and stop big public gatherings like they did during the first wave. Still the masks became a symbol thing. People were either for or against in the end. Three thousand people died in San Francisco. One of the highest numbers in a major US city during that pandemic. So what do you think about this story? You know after you told it like how do you come to think about it? And what it means you know. They're currently are a lot of protests in Michigan and elsewhere about you know pushing back against public health measures right and I. I saw so many similarities comparing today and one hundred years ago. I saw civil libertarians. One hundred years ago saying that if the government can tell us to wear a mask then there's no limit to what they can do. There were folks who threatened public health workers. There were all sorts of explanations and pushback against public health measures that we see in society again today. Npr's Tim Mack. We've got more on the backlash to public health measures. Then and now in a recent episode of embedded that's the other podcast I host there's linked to it in our episode notes the NFL just announced its fall schedule and major league. Baseball is talking about starting it season in July. It's not clear fans will go see any of these games in person this year but president trump really wants them to sports are just another part of American life. The president wants to get back fast. Here's NPR's Scott detro- last month. President Trump said something. A lot of sports fans can relate to but we have to get our sports back. I'm tired of watching baseball games at a fourteen years old but I haven't actually too much time to watch networks like. Espn been filling their airwaves with old games. They were nice at first but many fans have grown increasingly antsy for live events. Some baseball fans are now waking up early to watch the Korean Baseball Organization which began play earlier this month in front of empty seats and ESPN has resorted to airing live matches of the beanbag game cornhole but president trump has gone beyond the typical sports fans laments he circled back again and again to the idea of resuming play. We WanNa have our sports leagues open. You want to watch sports. It's important. We Miss Sports. We Miss Everything we want to get back. Ari Fleischer says President. Trump's instinct makes sense knows the American people are yearning for things that we used to take for granted. Sports being they wanted them. Fleischer was president. George W Bush's press secretary when the nine eleven terror attacks stopped sports along with everything else. America without sports was like a heart doesn't pump. Sports did have an outsized effect that fall once in a way this one has a chance mets catcher. Mike Piazza he all of New York City a Cathartic moment during the late innings of the first game back Shea stadium the president was personally very cognizant of the signal it would send the American people that were back on our feet. You can resume your lives. Put your fear side. As soon as sports returned mindful of those signals President Bush produced one of the most dramatic symbolic moments of his presidency. When he threw out the first pitch Yankee Stadium during the world series for tonight's match Sharona Neo. I and please welcome but as strange as it seems it was easier to protect against terrorism than it is to protect against a virus. The very nature of a large gathering is dangerous no matter what precautions are taken. That's why officials from Dr Anthony. Fauci on down have warned that pro sports aren't advisable anytime soon especially with fans in the seats. Still President trump keeps pushing for sports to return. What's more he keeps insisting that he won't be content with Games in front of empty seats ultimately we WANNA have packed arenas when the viruses gun we're going to have packed arenas and we're going to be back to enjoying sports to way this supposed to be in a statement. Npr Press Secretary Kaley mcenaney since the president is confident that with the right precautions in place quote sports will continue to strengthen and unite. It's still even the sports world isn't united around the concept of resuming games. Sean doolittle a pitcher on the Washington. Nationals has been outspoken on his concerns about safety he recently told the podcast. Starkville that he's also worried about the message. Games would send you know. Look these guys are playing baseball. These guys you know. Sports are back so everything has returned to normal. And and then all of a sudden we break social distancing measures. We stop you know home quarantines too soon and you know it it spikes again and it gets out of control and in that sense. Instead of uniting sports is once again mirroring the broader culture showing increasing divides on how to proceed in the pandemic that shows no signs of ending. Npr's Scott detro- few episodes ago. We told you that more people are adopting animals from shelters. If you're thinking about that and thinking about a dog you might consider fostering I you can give a dog a temporary home. Get a sense of how one would fit into your life. Also keep in mind that delivery slower these days. So if you're hoping to buy food or toys online you should plan for delays and know that you will be spending about one hundred bucks a month for that plus visits to the vet for more advice on adopting a dog from. Npr's life kit. There is a link in our episode notes for more on the corona virus. You can stay up to date with all the news on your local public radio station. I'm Kelly mcevers. We'll be back with more tomorrow.

President Trump president NPR San Francisco Baseball President Bush Dr Anthony Fauci New York City Kelly mcevers Michigan Anti Mask League Tim Mack Scott detro Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell Nineteen Eighteen
Covering Covid: Backlash

Embedded

15:39 min | 1 year ago

Covering Covid: Backlash

"Hey thanks for listening to embedded we want to understand. Who's listening to this show entire using podcast so if you could come out by doing a short anonymous survey at NPR dot org slash podcast survey. That's one word. It takes less than ten minutes and it really helps support the show that's NPR dot org slash. Podcast SURVEY ONE WORD X. Here's the show in you pay. I'm Kelly mcevers this is embedded from NPR. This week in Michigan the way some people are dealing with the corona virus pandemic got even more political. Angry protesters stood in front of the State House in Lansing and yelled. Let us in some of them were part of far right militia. Some were carrying semi automatic rifles. And they were protesting way. Michigan's Governor Gretchen. Whitmer has handled the crisis. She was about to extend a state of emergency. Protesters said they were against the state of emergency and against stay at home orders. They held signs. Like you're killing small business and tyrants get wrote one protester told a reporter. Corona virus is just like the flu which isn't true. Another made fun of social distancing rolls. Come up with this number of six feet. Maybe it's fine. Maybe it's three and a half. Maybe it's eight. I don't know six are being white for now but not much longer. My protesters started outside but eventually the push their way into the capital building. State Senator Dana Pull. Hanky tweeted a picture of armed men on a balcony in Cammo with big guns directly above me men with rifles yelling at US. She wrote some of my colleagues who owned bulletproof vests are wearing them. Protesters yelled in. The faces. Masked police officers and reporters. We did check with state police and they said that it is legal for protesters to open carry into capital. Police did not let the protesters onto the House floor. But they did let them move around the halls. Which of course led a lot of people to wonder what police would have done if the protesters were mostly white. We should say these protesters are a very small minority in Michigan. Polls show that a majority of people in the State Support Governor Whitmer but these protesters are fired up. And if last week is any indication. They're not just GONNA pack up and go home. Michigan is one of the states that has been hardest hit by this virus. Nearly four thousand people have died. They're all over the country. People are dying and some people are pushing back against public health measures. Experts say are needed to keep them from dying. If this all feels so twenty twenty turns out. It's not the first time people in our country have resisted these measures in a pandemic when lives are at stake one of our NPR colleagues will tell us how that turned out after this. Break the biggest story in the world is a science story and keeping up with all the latest corona virus research. It's a lot. So on shortwave. We translate the science you need to know into short daily episodes. Listen and subscribe to shortwave from NPR. Hey we're back and today we're GONNA talk to one of our colleagues. I'm Tim Mack. I'm a Washington investigative correspondent for NPR. Tim Mack is also an emt who has been volunteering at Corona virus testing sites during the pandemic. He of course wears a mask when he's doing that and she also wears one when he's out in public doing regular stuff so he was struck the other day when he saw a mention online about a group from one hundred years ago called the Anti Mask League and I had never heard of it before anti mask league. Yeah I haven't heard I mask league and I thought well that's interesting so I went to Google and it's a Friday night. I mean a pandemic. I got nowhere to go so I end up. I end up. I ended up writing. Like thirty tweet. Thread on the anti-nuclear because nineteen eight thousand nine hundred nineteen case. You haven't heard a lot of people have been making comparisons between the pandemic were in now and the one from about one hundred years ago the Spanish flu pandemic of nineteen eighteen. Which is where Tim Story. Starts San Francisco October nineteen eighteen. The first case of flu had just shown up about a month before but by October. The number of flu cases was rising fast into the thousands so the board of Health closed amusement parks and schools and prohibited dances and other social gatherings and barbers. Hotel Workers Bank tellers and other people who serve the public were required to wear masks cases kept going up though and eventually all people were ordered to wear mask. The Red Cross sold mass for ten cents or they told people they could make them out of gauze and dip them in alcohol or boil them for ten minutes each night. The Red Cross took out an ad in the San Francisco. Chronicle that said wear a mask and save your life. Doctors wear them the Edwin on those who do not wear them. We'll get sick. The man or woman or child who will not wear a mask is now a dangerous slacker. People were fined arrested and jailed for not wearing masks public. Health officer actually shot and wounded man. Who refused to wear a mask? For the most part though people complied and at first the general population is adhering to these guidelines. And you know they see an initial decline right. After a few weeks there were only a handful of new cases. So you get into November public. Health officials start saying we want to reopen the city sirens wailed and church bells rang as people take off their masks at the same time on the same day. After four weeks of muzzled misery. The Chronicle wrote San Francisco Quote Unmasked At noon. Yesterday and the sidewalks were strewn with the relics of torturous month and these residents were so relieved that this first wave was over. They rushed out to entertainment venues. They had been denied that joy that pleasure for a long time right and they rushed out together. That was immediately of course followed by a second wave of a pandemic cases. Started going up again not as many as before but still. The city's public health officer. A man named William Hasler said people should practice social distancing and they should wear masks again but many people didn't want to the second was different. People were frustrated about being hassled about masks and so most citizens of San Francisco refused to wear mass Ninety percent of them refused to wear masks but even the chronicle question whether the death rate was high enough to warrant re masking the paper worried it would only quote increase. The scare the big push against mass from the business community standpoint. Is that it kind of projected. Fear back then. There were a lot of businesses. They're concerned about Christmas sales. They were worried about whether they can keep their stores open health officer. William Hasler warned that the health of the economy was being above the health of the people. The health officer was kind of like the nineteen eighteen. One Thousand Nine Hundred Nineteen Dr Fao Chee and like Dr Fao G. The healthier was also subject to threats. I mean there was actually an incident where someone decided to send. What look to be an Improvised Explosive? Device address to Dr Hassler and so there were threats at that time as well about public health guidance. Yeah that's unsown to now. I mean found. She is had to have a security detail because of threats right. That's right but the doctor Hasler at the time. He was not intimidated by that. He he said. Look at the data when Masser warn Rates of transmission. Go Down so where them. They're helpful. They're useful in fact. Hasler said masks should be mandatory again. So the Board of supervisors took up the issue. Hundreds of people like I said gathered in December as part of a public meeting to debate whether or not impose a mandatory mask order and ultimately local officials refused to implement it after that the number of flu cases and deaths in San Francisco kept going up and up and by January tenth of Nineteen nineteen officials have had enough so local officials decide that they're going to approve a mandatory mask order on January tenth of nineteen after six hundred new cases. Were reported that day and so what are the protesters do well? You know people continued to engage in civil disobedience of the order in fact they started to organize despite the rising number of cases in San Francisco at the time. Two thousand people gathered together at a meeting of the anti mask leak. Which was an organization purely created to oppose this mandatory? Masking Rule. This anti mask league meeting got heated. Some of the protesters wanted to circulate. An anti mask petition. Someone to recall Dr Hasler in the end the anti massacres issued a statement that the New Mandatory Mask Ordinance was quote contrary to the wishes of a majority of the people so you know at least for local officials. The number of deaths change their minds but for the sort of hard liner anti massacres. It did not change their minds. In fact it only hardened their position. That's right but there were many I. I don't know the population centers disco in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine thousand nine hundred but two thousand people still represents a very small minority of the public. Right so yeah you know if you look at. What's happening in Michigan today? These are hundreds of people in a state of millions and Two Thousand People in San Francisco at the time while a large crowd did not represent the the popular opinion in San Francisco. Right still it was really interesting. Case of folks in a pandemic organizing together to push back against public health measures so the officials have put this mandatory mask order in place. And you've got this these couple thousand hardliners who are against it but what most people do most people comply and what happens after that. Most people begin to comply and not only that the number of new cases and the number of deaths as a result of flu and pneumonia at that time declined Which was the first decline in quite some time. Flu Cases went down and two weeks later. The mandatory mask order was once again lifted. We talked a one historian. Nancy Bristow at the University of puget. Sound and she says it's not totally clear. How big of a factor masks were in the total number of flu cases in San Francisco? She says masks weren't always made the right materials and a lot of people didn't wear them right and it's possible. The second wave was more about the fact that the city didn't close businesses and stop big public gatherings like they did during the first wave. Still the masks became a symbol. A thing people were either for or against in the end. Three thousand people died in San Francisco. The highest numbers in a major. Us City during that pandemic. So what do you think about this story? You know after you told it like. How have you come to think about it? And what it means. There currently are a lot of protests in Michigan and elsewhere about you know pushing back against public health measures. We don't need them and I saw so many similarities comparing today and one hundred years ago I saw civil libertarians. A hundred years ago saying that if the government can tell us to wear a mask then there's no limit to what they can do. There were folks who threatened public health workers. There were all sorts of explanations and pushback against public health measures that we see in society again today. You have to reaction to this right firstly. It's reassuring in the sense that humans generally have acted similarly throughout history. When it comes to the sort of pollock's right on what's frustrating is that humans have acted similarly one hundred years ago and today tell me what's reassuring about it like. I understand what's frustrating about it but what I'm saying is that it's like this is not a singularly terrible moment in time. You know this has happened before. San Francisco survived and became what it is today. Which is you know. One of the world's great global cities and it gives a little bit of hope about how the world will continue despite this But here's the other frustrating and possibly very scary thing that Tim says he takes away from this story. It's a warning right. It's a warning that if as the United States gets through its first wave and begins to open up again that in a second wave we can look back to history and predict that perhaps Americans will be much much more than happy to have to shut down a second time to to have to adhere to these public measures a second time to have that little bit of opening and then a second wave hit. You could lead to protest. You could see a lot of people thinking. Is this really worth it for a second time? And certainly. That's what happened in San Francisco. That was Tim. Mack investigative reporter. Npr This episode was produced by Chris. Bender and edited by Tom. Try Spoken Lisa. Pollock music by Ramtane Arab. Louis and blue dots sessions. You can also read more about the Anti Mask League in the book. America's forgotten pandemic by Alfred Crosby. And there's been lots of good coverage of this in the San Francisco Chronicle past and present. That's where he got a lot of information for the story. So thanks guys you can hit us up with your story from the pandemic by emailing embedded at NPR dot org or on twitter at NPR embedded. We'll be back soon with more thanks.

San Francisco Michigan NPR William Hasler flu Governor Whitmer Tim Mack San Francisco Chronicle officer US State House Lansing NPR reporter Red Cross Kelly mcevers Governor Gretchen Tim Story
The Campus Killer Pt. 1: Ted Bundy

Serial Killers

47:52 min | 1 year ago

The Campus Killer Pt. 1: Ted Bundy

"Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of abuse murder and sexual assault that some people may I find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. It was a clear January day in nineteen eighty thirty one year old. Stephen Michaud drove down highway. Sixteen in in Raeford Florida lush green fields stretched as far as the I could see insects hummed but once Steven Pass through the gates of the Florida State Prison. He entered a different world inside blue skies. gave way a too hard fluorescent lit interiors and despite the chilly temperature Stephen began to sweat. Stephen was about to enter one of the highest security facilities. The state could offer as he was escorted down the prison corridor by a team of armed guards. He could hear his heart heart pounding in his ears after all Stephen was no. FBI profiler or police. Detective he was just a journalist. His entourage guards took him through one last secure door. Stephen steeled himself as it swung open inside. A man sat at a metal table dressed in a pale. Orange prison issued uniform a chain around his waist. Stephen hesitated almost shocked the inmate before him was a regular looking guy in his thirty's handsome even even with is as clear blue as the Florida skies. The men smiled widely journalist. Beckoning him to sit down. As Stephen took a seat across from him and hit record on his tape player he had to remind himself who the man on the other side of the table was he was no ordinary prisoner or just a charming acquaintance. He was a monster in Carnet. Stephen Stephen was face to face with Ted Bundy. Hi I'm Greg Paulson. This is serial killers a podcast original all every Monday. We dive into the minds of madness of serial killers this week were covering the brutal murders committed by one of the most notorious serial killers of the twentieth century. Ted Bundy. I'm here with my co host Vanessa. Richardson Hi everyone. You can find episodes of serial killers and all other par- cast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream serial killers for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type serial killers killers in the search bar at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at apar- cast and twitter at podcast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening it really does help this week? Will unpack Ted Bundy's traumatic early childhood as well as the events that chipped away at the last of his humanity precipitating tasting his first eight confirmed murders. Next week we'll track Ted as he embarks on a killing spree. That ends in the mutilation and murder order of dozens of young women in cities across the US. A bloody rampage. That spurred multiple arrests and trials leading him to become and one of America's most iconic murderers Ted Bundy was born. Feared are Robert Robert cowl on November twenty fourth nineteen forty six in Burlington Vermont. His mother twenty two year old. Louis call gave birth to Ted in a home for unwed mothers others. The identity of Ted's father to this day is unknown on his birth certificate. A man named Lloyd Marshall is listed. Ted's mother claimed that Marshall was a thirty year old former air force pilot however years later she mentioned another man a sailor by the name Jack Jack Worthington. Neither of these men however have been confirmed as Ted's true biological father. Some theory suggests that neither Lloyd Marshall Ignored Jack worthing ten existed at all leaving Ted for all intents and purposes fatherless. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode please note. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks Greg. Researchers have found that young children lacking a parent have difficulty forming deep interpersonal bonds and can develop serious emotional issues in adulthood. These individuals sometimes have a tendency to react aggressively or angrily to situations others might consider to be neutral according to mental health expert Jared Brown with the Minnesota Psychological Association. This behavior stems from a combination of perceived abandonment and attachment issues. But despite the absence of a biological father Ted Bundy was raised in the shadow of a different father. Figure one far from the example of empathy but he so desperately needed after after giving birth. Louise didn't intend to keep her son. She left the baby boy at the home for unwed mothers in Vermont and returned to Philadelphia to live with her parents but for months. His mother agonized over the decision to give him up. Ted's grandfather demanded that she bring the boy home. MM-HMM LOUISE's father. Sam cowl decided that he and Louise's mother. Eleanor would raise Ted as their own. They would tell him and everyone outside the Carter family family that they had adopted the three-month-old they would be as parents. Not Louise and Louise was to play. The part of her son's much older sister. This was not unheard of at the time. Some families decided to keep their illegitimate grandchildren a secret by claiming them as their own rather than face ridicule ridicule from their communities but intend Bundy's case being in his grandparents care was far more tumultuous than being raised by a young single angle mother. Samco Ted's grandfather was known to be exceptionally ruthless man. He was an alcoholic alchoholic with a violent temper and was reportedly cruel to animals. Some accounts claim that Sam kick family dogs and would throw the neighborhood cats around by the tails but his abuse wasn't just limited to pets. Sam also went on frequent violent rampages in the family home. He he said to have pushed one of his daughters down the stairs because she overslept and may have also abused his wife. Elinor a timid woman who suffered from severe depression and Gora Phobia eventually. Eleanor never left the house. It seemed no one was left unscathed from Sam cowles wrath or at least no one but little theodore. There's no evidence that Sam abused his grandson. According to Ted he was never the victim of his grandfathers violence or of any abuse for that matter. In fact he loved Sam and even looked up to him. Ted Often recounted his childhood hood in an idyllic almost unrealistic way and though he was far from reliable narrator because there are no documented accounts that he suffered childhood abuse. You very well may have been telling the truth though. We'll never know definitively if ted suffered any sort of abuse physical or psychological ecological at the hands of his grandfather. There's no doubt that he witnessed the abuse of his female relatives at a very early age. This experience would surely shaped his perception of manhood and very possibly his violent tendencies. According to social psychologists and Abuse Specialists Donald Donald Dutton children who experienced domestic violence are more likely to develop an abusive personality. Dutton found that male children in particular were or at a greater risk than their female counterparts of becoming abusers. This was especially true in the case of young boys who witnessed abuse against others rather than being directly victimized themselves a circumstance strikingly similar to the one young. Ted Bundy was raised in however tiddly lived under SAM calls tyranny for the first few years of his life in nineteen fifty when he was four Ted and his mother. Louise moved to Tacoma Washington to live with relatives. Ted was devastated to be taken from his beloved grandparents. Who He still believed? Were his adoptive parents but Louise was determined to start a new life with her son far from the abusive household she had grown up in in the summer. The one thousand nine hundred ninety one. Louise met Johnny Bundy at an adult singles night at the local Methodist Church. The too quickly fell in love and it wasn't long before they were married buried afterward. Johnny formerly adopted Ted. Giving him the name that would become so infamous decades later Ted Bundy but despite this gesture of love and acceptance Ted was never very fond of his stepfather. He described Johnny as dimwitted and resented the fact that he didn't earn much money as a military cook over the next ten years as louise and Johnny added four more children to the family. Ted became seem emotionally detached preferring to spend his time alone as a kid and especially as an adolescent. Ted was incredibly shy and self conscious inches. He had a speech impediment that often left him stuttering and he had few friends throughout his school years he generally struggled to fit in. However Ted's memory of his own childhood was entirely different? The picture that Ted constructed of his youth for psychologists and journalists was like a Norman Rockwell painting. He recalled summer days catching frogs and playing marbles and peewee football with neighborhood kids. He played up the fact that he was a boy scout and that every Sunday the entire Bundy clan went to church strangely. Ted's mother Louise echoed the saccharin picture of his youth. Even after his crimes were revealed she described as a very normal active boy. Our Son is the best son in the world. And perhaps Louise Truly did believe this about Ted after all. He became increasingly skilled at hiding his less savory activities. During his adolescence Ted began his criminal career as a peeping Tom. He would sneak off in the evenings. And Prowl his middle-class neighborhood to masturbate while he watched women through the windows of their homes. This voyeuristic streak eventually dominated more and more of Ted's life as a teenager. It became an all consuming routine and he would return to the same houses to watch the same women until the early hours of the morning morning. As far as we know Ted was never caught and as a result Louise was never conscious of this deviant side of her son in fact it seems no one was explicitly aware of Ted's darker inclinations but his peers always knew there was something off about Ted in high school. His classmates often said that Ted didn't seem to be all there. He was aloof and never got too close to anyone. He never went drinking and and despite developing into a relatively handsome young man he never attended school dances or dated at school. Just like at home. Ted was was a loner. Of course heads. Memory of his time in high school was once again different from reality he recounted being perhaps a bit straight edge but it also claimed he was a good student and talented athlete. In truth. Ted's classmates remember him being both a mediocre student and a lacklustre athlete eight. It seems Ted later over wrote his entire history with the version he wanted to be true. This is in part because Ted had a big ambitions for himself resentful of his family's lower middle-class economic status he was obsessed with elevating himself to something he felt was greater more elite. Ted Desperately wanted to be a successful lawyer or even president but he knew he'd only be able to accomplish these goals if if he became a particular kind of person someone Suave and intelligent popular and capable so he started rewriting the parts of his life. If that didn't fit the mold and soon he was given the ultimate opportunity to reinvent himself. He went to college after a year at the University of puget. Sound in one thousand nine hundred sixty six nine thousand nine year old Ted transferred to the University of Washington in Seattle and went to work reconstructing his identity he threw out his timid personality and formed an entirely new persona one that was intense intense but likable intellectual yet. All American he taught himself to smile with ease and talk with steady unwavering eye. Contact Act with each new person. He met he tried out this new self until he honed did to near perfection. Essentially Ted was practicing the charisma and charm arm of the kind of politician. He thought he wanted to be to gain more experience with this political persona firsthand. He volunteered on a local campaign around. One thousand nine hundred sixty seven. Ted Volunteered for Republican Nelson Rockefeller's presidential residential campaign working on the campaign trail gave him a built in social life. He never had suddenly. He had a group of friends campaign staffers and other volunteers and a variety of political functions to attend these events gave Ted real opportunities to test drive his sparkling personality with practice actus. He found he could strike up a conversation easily and fit in any function. These newfound social skills also landed him his first girlfriend in one thousand nine hundred sixty seven twenty year old. Ted Met Diana birds a fellow student at the University University of Washington. Diane was the kind of woman Ted Dreamed of. She was tall and beautiful with long dark hair. But it wasn't just Diane's looks that Ted adored. She also came from a wealthy family near San Francisco. She was worldly sophisticated upper class. Ted Ted swiftly fell in love. The two spent much of their time together going on drives arrives. They traveled across Washington State through dense forests seeking beautiful views on the mountains. Ted later said they also spent hours Kissing Diane Diane expensive car whispering sweet. Nothings to one another. Diane was most likely the first person to truly get close to Ted. She saw potential in him. She was attracted to his confidence and charm but she felt he could make something more of himself because she came from a wealthy influential family. Diana was looking to be with someone who could one day provider with the lifestyle. She'd become accustomed to meaning Ted with his humble middleclass brutes had everything to prove being with Diane meant becoming the kind of man she wanted him to be and her expectations began to compound compound. The pressures Ted already put on himself it only inflamed his insecurity when Diane Graduated From College in Nineteen eighteen sixty eight. She returned home to California the anxiety. Ted Harbert about whether or not he was good enough to stay with. Diane began to devour him. They tried to make the long distance relationship work. But that's summer Diane's letters began to dwindle and her calls became less frequent. Then she didn't write at all. Ted was devastated later. He recounted very little about this time other than consuming assuming emptiness he said in there somewhere was a desire to have some sort of revenge on Diane toward the end of that summer. I'm serious I just I. It's blank I don't know what the Hell I did. In that blind spot was Ted's dark descent. His slow metamorphosis us into the killer he was fated to become and when he finally arrived there would be no turning back. When we return? Ted Bundy's composure begins to crumble revealing the murderer underneath the facade. I WANNA take a moment to say thank you to all of our listeners because of you serial killers just reached its third anniversary. Three years of serial killers. Dealers isn't possible without your support so to commemorate this incredible anniversary and your loyalty serial killers will now be airing twice a week. That's right in addition addition to the regular Monday release of serial killers. You also get a brand new episode every Thursday so mark your calendar and get ready to hear US twice a week Every Monday and Thursday and thanks again for supporting serial killers now back to the story in Nineteen Sixty eight twenty one year old Ted. Bundy found himself utterly alone. His life in a tailspin. It seemed that he'd been faded to live masquerading as something. He was not no matter how he changed himself or how desperately he wanted it he would never never be the powerful debonair man. He imagined his efforts at self improvement had led to his first girlfriend Diane Edwards but eventually she had seen him for what he truly was and then she had abandoned him. It was perhaps the most painful thing he'd ever experienced the end of Ted's relationship with Diane was the first domino to fall in his twisted metamorphosis. The next his failed plans for the future that year Ted dropped out of college records of what he did during the end of one thousand nine hundred sixty eight and nineteen. sixty-nine are unclear but some accounts report that it was during this time he learned the truth about his identity about his birth. We don't know if Louise ever intended to tell held Ted the truth that she was his mother and not his older sister but regardless of her intentions. Ted beat her to the punch. He found a copy of his birth certificate with Louise's name listed as his biological mother and the word illegitimate listed near his own before that summer. Bummer Ted knew who he was. He was the son of Salmon. Eleanor cowl he was a student at the University of Washington and he was Diane Edwards is boyfriend then over a period of just one year each of those truths crumbled. He had a true crisis of identity. According to psychiatrist and Harvard Researcher Judith Herman Trauma Dismantles the systems that help support us whether they be social cultural. Or we're economic. When traumatic events destroy these protections we are disempowered therefore the process of trauma rehabilitation requires us to rebuild these systems to restore control over our own lives for Ted Bundy? His trauma recovery fueled his second transformation Shen and he was hell bent to take back the power he felt had been taken from him in nineteen sixty nine. At twenty two years old he seemingly became determined to pull himself up by his bootstraps that fall he re enrolled at the University of Washington. You then met another woman it Elizabeth Clip for Elizabeth or. Liz had long brown hair. She was a plane softspoken woman from a Mormon German family and the single mother of a young daughter. She was Ted's on again off again girlfriend for the next six years. Ted claimed he loved his is so much that it was destabilizing yet. He felt he could never fully opened up to her instead. He simply went through the motions of companionship helping her raise her young daughter washing the dishes taking out the garbage but in reality the entire time he was with Liz. Ted was still obsessed with his first girlfriend friend Diana Edwards over the next three years. Ted Did whatever he could to make himself into the kind of Man Diane had wanted wanted even while he was with Liz. He was determined to win. Diane Back Ted threw himself into school and even to more altruistic mystic activities in nineteen seventy one at twenty two. He began volunteering at the Seattle Crisis Clinic a suicide prevention hotline ironically elite during this time Ted Bundy actually saved two lives in one thousand. Nine hundred seventy two. He graduated from the University of Washington with a degree degree in psychology and began applying to law schools. He aimed high submitting himself to Ivy League institutions at the same time he also also continued his political pursuits working for the Washington State Republican Party for the first time Ted felt he was gaining traction. He had a promising promising career. Some money and was about to enroll in law school. It had taken time. But he rebuilt himself and in Nineteen seventy-three Ted finally finally felt he was ready to win. Diane back so while on a business trip in California that summer he contacted her and asked her to dinner that night Bundy was clean. Cut quaffed and as charming as Diane remembered but he it was more mature more sure of himself. She marveled at the confident way. He ordered for them both and the prestigious law schools. He casually mentioned he'd Applied Clyde to by the end of the night. Diana's captivated by the brand new Ted Bundy and when he invited her to visit him in Seattle. She eagerly agreed all the while. Ted continued to see Liz clever. One day he would be at Liz's house eating dinner with her and her daughter the next he would be whining raining in dining Diane and staying an expensive ski resorts for months. He lived a double life. And neither Liz nor Diane was the wiser he become incredibly adept at keeping these parts of his life. Separate this ability to live two different existences simultaneously was one of Ted Bundy's most defining features. Al Carlisle the prison psychologist colleges who analyzed Ted Years later called this tendency compartmentalization Carlisle explained compartmentalization as a sectioning off off of ideas or events into specific mental frames a person keeps distinct psychological boundaries between each of these frames in order to keep keep them separate like different realities inside the same mind. Carlao went on to say these so-called compartments help protect the ability of the person to to live multiple and often opposing lifestyles which are relatively immune from detection. This came in Handy for Ted in Nineteen Nineteen seventy-three the twenty six year old seamlessly juggled his to relationships with listen Diane for the better part of a year during that time Diane fell deeply doc in love with him and Ted seemingly felt the same way he and Diane even discussed marriage and Ted introduced her as his fiance to his friends at parties parties but that winter everything changed After the holidays Ted suddenly distanced himself from Diam with no explanation. He halted any discussion about marriage plans and when she came to visit him he was irritable and antagonistic after pursuing her for six years and after a month long passionate affair Ted suddenly turned cold. Diane was heartbroken when she returned to San Francisco. She wrote to him begging for an explanation but he never wrote back. She eventually called Ted Furious and yelled at him. Why was he doing this? His reply chilled children to the bone. He said flatly. I have no idea what you mean. Then he hung up. It's possible that Ted's pursuit of Diana after all those years was nothing but a power. Move Away to hurt her in the same way that she hurt him an eye for an I if this is true and he had always intended to make her fall in love with him only to reject her it would mean. The moment was literally years in the making being a deliberate sadistic plan. However there's a possibility that Ted hadn't intended to break up with Diane? Perhaps there were other the factors that play shortly. Before the break-up his grand plans of attending a prestigious law school fell through his Ivy League. Applications things were rejected has l sat score. Didn't make the cut instead. He was forced to accept admission to the University of puget. Sound a small Mall College located in his hometown of Tacoma. Ted was devastated. He hated himself for not being better for years he dreamed of becoming a successful lawyer and in some ways it was the entire premise of as rekindled relationship with Diane without that future richer he may have felt the need to reject Diane before she learned the truth. He certainly felt a consuming sense of failure. As Ted sod his future was was dimming the goals he had pursued for more than half a decade had disappeared in a puff of smoke. And so did his self control on January Fourth Nineteen seventy-four twenty-seven-year-old. Ted took a short walk from his apartment -partment at the University of Washington to a nearby housing complex. It was a familiar troll. He'd made several times before for days. Ted had observed the buildings bottom unit from his car. He discovered four university. Students lived there three young men and their lone female roommate. Eight eighteen year old Karen sparks. Karen was a freshman at U. W. and a dancer. She had a pretty girl next door. Look with a kind face face and long dark hair. She slept in the apartments basement bedroom fairly separated from her male roommates. Just after midnight Ted. Ed quietly broke into the apartment and entered. Karen's bedroom there. Ted stood in the doorway away crowbar in hand. He approached the bed where the young woman slept peacefully her breathing steady. Ted's breath however was rapid as he watched Karen's unconscious body her dark hair splayed on the pillow. He felt his mind begin to spiral. His his blood surged through every artery. Then he slammed the crew bar into her skull once he started and he couldn't stop again and again. He bludgeoned Karen blood spattered his face and his clothes in his rage. He broke a metal rod brought from her bed frame and sexually assaulted her concussed body after he was satisfied he slipped out of her bedroom. Door it into the night the next day. Karen's roommates assumed she was sleeping in for most of the afternoon. It wasn't wasn't until seven PM. The following night that they found her unconscious lying in a pool of her own blood but miraculously she was still alive the injuries karen spark sustained that night left her with permanent brain damage and physical disabilities but but it was only the start of Ted Bundy's reign of terror. One that continued for the next four years coming up Ted Bundy commits his first documented. Kill and begins a murderous rampage that rocked the Pacific northwest. Now back to the story in January of Nineteen Seventy Four twenty-seven-year-old ted. Bundy committed his first known attack and sexual assault on eighteen year. Old Karen sparks a freshman at the university diversity of Washington Karen managed to survive the brutal attack. Ted had attempted murder and failed but it wouldn't be long. He tried again that Winter Ted was enrolled in law school at the university. The puget sound at the beginning of the semester Ted diligently attended his classes but soon his normally perfect attendance faltered. Ted began skipping class to stock young women around campus. He case their apartments observing their comings and goings while sitting in his Tan. Volkswagen in bog he also resurrected his old peeping Tom Habits. He watched beautiful coeds for hours through their bedroom windows as as they went about their nightly routines it was better than anything he could find on. TV however Ted found is next victim not by prowling the streets beats around campus but by tuning into the radio talks twenty one year old. Linda and Healy was a senior at the University of Washington. Ashington as well as the host of a popular radio show that reported the weather conditions for local ski. Slopes she was well known among snow bunnies in the Seattle area. Ted was an avid skier. He picked up the sport while dating Diane when he was trying desperately to rub elbows with his wealthier peers. While Ted's love for Diana that died his passion for skiing lived on like many skiers in the area. Ted Undoubtedly tuned into Linda's reports but eventually he was listening for more than just a friendly voice announcing the daily snow conditions. He was casing his next victim in the early morning. Hours of February first. Nineteen seventy four less than a month after breaking into Karen sparks. Basement the department. Ted broke into Linda. Healy's home. He snuck past the rooms of her four sleeping roommates and intimate has better there. She lay fast to sleep. But Ted didn't take any chances. He immediately bludgeoned her in the head knocking her unconscious. This time. Ted had the new plan. He wasn't going to murder Linda in her bedroom and risk being caught instead he abducted her with Linda out cold. Ted removed her now bloodstained nightgown and dressed her in a pair of jeans and a t-shirt he then made her her bed concealing her bloody sheets and carried her away. Where Ted took Linda next is unclear wherever it was? He raped her her and murdered her then. He left her body on the side of Taylor Mountain over thirty miles east of Seattle. It was a horrific sequence sub events the first performance of routine that Ted would repeat dozens of times but Linda. Healy's disappearance wasn't just the beginning of Ted's bloodlust. It was also the start of a massive investigation. The next morning when Linda failed to show up to the radio station to broadcast her daily isky report. Her coworkers knew there was something amiss. Linda would never just not show up to work. She was responsible girl. Bright Successful restful and well known in the community not the kind of college student to disappear into thin air. The authorities expected foul play from the very beginning beginning. When police searched Linda's bedroom they found several items missing including a few pieces of Linda's clothes and her house keys? Mysteriously the back door was also left unlocked. Something Linda's room mates insisted she had never done before. When detectives peeled back the sheets on her perfectly made a bed? They discovered a small bloodstain upon further investigation. They found Linda's blood soaked nightgown in the closet. It was clear now someone had taken Linda Healy. It was all too familiar to the Seattle. PD They had seen a crime just as brutal brutal barely a month before and only blocks away. The attempted murder of Karen sparks. Finally the police had made a connection but it would be months before the investigation would gain traction. After Linda's murder her Ted was accelerated. And around this time Liz club for his long term girlfriend noticed a distinct change in him. His mood shifted at the drop of a hat. One Minute he was in high spirits has charming as ever and in the next is is went dark. Simple arguments arguments escalated into threats and broken furniture. It was the first time had seen him skirt towards violence his sexual habits changed as well though. Liz and Ted reportedly had a tender love life up to that point. He became aggressive coercing her into anal sex and insisting they experiment Roman with bondage but handcuffs in the bedroom with Liz wasn't enough to satisfy Ted. He continued prowling the streets of Seattle hunting for his next next victim. And during the Spring and summer of nineteen seventy four. He killed half a dozen young women in quick succession. Sources vary on the time. Line of Ted Bundy's killing spree but according to author and rules book the Stranger beside me. Ted's next victims uh-huh were claimed in the following order in March Ted abducted nineteen year old. Donna Manson from Evergreen State College in Olympia. While she was on her way to a concert cert- later he confessed to decapitating her and cremating her head in lists fireplace. Her remains were never found in April. Almost almost exactly a month later Ted abducted eighteen year old. Susan Ran Court from central Washington State College in Ellensburg. As she was walking to a film film-screening he murdered her and left her body on Taylor Mountain only a couple of weeks later on May Sixth Ted expanded his hunting grounds. He murdered twenty year old. Roberta Parks a student at Oregon State University. Four hours South Seattle three weeks after he returned from Oregon Ted spent the evening with Liz and her family loses relatives had gathered to celebrate her daughter's baptism. The next it's morning everyone was in high spirits. Liz who had been feeling troubled about Ted and his recent bizarre behavior filter worries ease. She watched him mm chat with a family member laughing and it's big infectious way. He was back to his usual charming self then. Suddenly Liz watched watched as Ted's expression changed it was like witnessing a storm drift to cross a bright sky. Suddenly his face went dark and the excused himself from the table. Ted left early that night without a word of explanation the next morning he was laid to Liz's daughter's baptism. Aw Loses. Thoughts immediately flew to her greatest fear. Ted was cheating on her with another woman but the truth was so so much worse after he excused himself from Liz's Family Gathering Ted raped and murdered twenty two year. Old Brenda Ball. His fifth confirmed victim. After a night of butchery he spent the next morning at a baptism. Ted Sudden Departure Church soon became a common occurrence more than a few times. Liz Fell Asleep next to ted only to wake up in the morning to find. He disappeared in the middle. I love the night. While Liz silently kept note of Ted's strange behavior the authorities also identified disturbing trend every month a a new college age. coeds seemed to disappear into thin air and by that summer the Pacific northwest was gripped in terror. Walking around college campuses began to feel like a living horror film hitchhiking which was a popular way for young people to get around at the time stopped almost entirely entirely girls in Seattle were even advised to travel in groups and to avoid walking through alleys. Perhaps the most eerie detail of the mysterious serious disappearances was the fact that each of the missing women bore a striking resemblance to one another. Almost every single victim was young white attractive active. That had long dark hair parted down the middle. They looked like Dianne Edwards the tendency to target victims who have a particular appearance or who resemble amble someone. A killer knows isn't uncommon. These shared characteristics between victims are referred to as a victim profile and Ted Bundy's was incredibly specific while we don't know if Ted's gravitation toward young women who looked like Diane was conscious. It's doubtful that his victims resemblance blends to his first. Love was a coincidence. However Ted later denied that he deliberately sought out particular type of target instead he? He claimed that the only common denominator between his victims was that they were young and fairly attractive. But it's very likely that the strong pattern Saturn and Ted's victim profiles was born of his breakup with Diane according to Doctor. Mary Ellen O'Toole a former FBI profiler specializing and psychopathy Killers victim preference is often developed based on a combination of what victims are available accessible and desirable at the time when a killer begins their murders and for Ted Dabo Gang of Diane Edwards. Were most likely the focus of his blood lost in the winter of nineteen seventy four. When ted I began killing he was right on the heels of his second? Break up with Diane. It's very possible that at at that time Ted had an insatiable urge to keep hurting her even after unceremoniously cutting off the relationship so he presumably would have been looking for a sort sort of surrogate for Diana on whom he could inflict pain with that desire in place. Ted looked around to see who was available and accessible muscle and for Ted a law student. Who lived very near the University of Washington campus? Female College students were in high supply. Thus Tad's victim profile was born and Ted's profile was more precise than most throughout his four-year killing streak he rarely straight from murdering his victims who fell exactly in line with the characteristics he was looking for essentially Ted had type and a Seattle police took took notice but while they recognized the pattern of victims police had no leads on the killer alert himself no suspects all they could do was watch helplessly as women continue to disappear across the Pacific northwest their only hope was that the next time the Predator struck he'd make a misstep leave something behind or botch a murder attempt. Detectives knew that in order for a killer to become so careless. They I had to grow comfortable and for Ted Bundy. Murder felt all to natural by the summer of Nineteen seventy-four. Ted's transformation into a serial killer was complete elite with each and every murder. His Ego only grew and his kills became more and more brazen that July his the era gance finally outranked his own. Good Judgment Ted abducted and murdered two women on the same day in Broad Daylight Light July fourteenth nineteen seventy four was a beautiful Sunday afternoon. Noon at Lake Sammamish just east of Seattle. It was a busy day for the park. Nearly forty thousand people had come to enjoy the lakes cool waters and onto picnic on its shores but Ted Bundy had different plans. Ted arrived at the lake and Casual Beach clothing and wearing an arm arm sling. He began approaching young women explaining. He was having a hard time loading his sailboat into his car with his injured arm then he asked them if they would be willing to come to the parking lot and help him out. Many women politely declined but to agreed to help. The poor injured entered man nineteen year. Old Denise Naslund Ted second victim that day had left her friends to use the park bathrooms when she encountered this seemingly helpless Ted Undoubtedly. She realized her mistake as they approached his car. It wasn't a pickup but rather a tiny rainy. Vw Bug with no sailboat in sight but by that point far from the crowds of people at the beach it was too late. Ted's first victim that day had been a beautiful young woman. He spotted sitting on a blanket and a yellow Bikini twenty-three-year-old Janna Sant- witnesses observed a man approach Janice. They described him as handsome with an unidentifiable vaguely British accent before Janice walked off with him. They hurt Janice introduce yourself then. So did the stranger his name was. Ted Seattle's mysterious Darius coed killer had finally made a critical mistake. He'd left behind one vital clue his real name. Thanks again for tuning in to serial killers will be back Monday with part. Two of Ted Bundy will continue to track. Ted's prolific and gruesome killing spree and explore his sadistic evolution into one of America's most infamous at the medicine murderers for more information on Ted Bundy amongst the many sources we used. We found the book stranger beside me by an rule extremely helpful helpful to our research. You can find more episodes of serial killers and all other podcast originals for free on spotify. Not only the spotify already. Have all of your favorite it music but now spotify making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals. Like serial killers for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker two stream serial killers on spotify. Just open the APP and type serial killers and the search bar. Several of you have asked how to help the show. And if you enjoy the show the best I way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll we'll see you next time. Killer Week serial killers was created by Max Cutler and is a podcast studios original executive producers. Include clued Max and Ron Cutler sound design by one Boorda with Production Assistance Byron Shapiro Carleen Madden Travis Clark and one Boorda. This episode Soda. Serial killers was written by. Alex Garland with writing assistance by Abigail. CANHAM and stars. Greg Colson and Vanessa Richardson.

Diane Back Ted Ted Bundy ted Diane Diane Ted Harbert Ted Often Ted Seattle Seattle Denise Naslund Ted Ted Furious Ted Dreamed Ted Undoubtedly Ted Years ted I University of Washington Diana Edwards Liz Ted Dabo Louise
ANDY BECKER  The Spiritual Gardener

Swimming Upstream Radio Show

25:35 min | 2 years ago

ANDY BECKER The Spiritual Gardener

"Hello welcome it's time to join Dorothy Wilhelm who had his very minute is swimming upstream because it isn't crowded there this new show now is for people who want to break away from the ordinary and live as if it mattered let's get going Dorothy gets crappy if you keep waiting hello I am Dorothy will how we are ars swimming upstream and we do that once a week whether we need to or not because it's a good way to clean often besides that lay you meet interesting people that you'd never meet anywhere else and today I have someone very special for you to Andy Becker is what he calls a spiritual Gardner he's also an attorney but we like him anyway and he says that he is a writer a gardener and a Lifetime Learner but his book look the first of several is is the spiritual gardner when did you realize Andy that's what you were you know no I don't and I store th-they yes so nice to be here in it's never too late I think I realized is a young unmanned probably in high school that I always wanted to be a writer and I wrote my first book it aged nineteen and it's somewhere in a box in my basement in that's where it belongs or in the fireplace wetter and other but I became a lawyer and during the course of my lawyer I just felt drawn to the garden I felt drawn to the outdoors in we live in a world especially especially if you're a moderate attorney where things are so hectic so busy there is never enough time the just to start discovering what it's like like to be outside too tense down from all your worries in trouble Nice just drawn to the garden it wasn't until years later that I found out all the benefits of gardening I understand that I happened when you were living in a rental house absolutely and guide the Garden Blind to you then it oh it didn't didn't there was an old arbor with with a very wizened old grapevines on a Trellis us and I could see that there'd been a garden there before the ground was sad it was baked this was in east Tacoma as going to a normalising ten yes it's going to University of puget sound law school I had the privilege of going to a law school that gut sold to the jesuits it's now called Seattle University I units moved to Seattle in any event I go out in the yard all I have is a shovel in a rake I don't know that I even had any hand tools and I just started gardening will that was a pretty sad excuse for garden I garden remember what you raised yeah I tried to grow corn Ernie I tried to grow you know you go you go to the store and you buy the seed packet there and you put it in the ground you see what happens in not a lot lot happened but that was the start in if you know it's never too late if Irish and I've heard that to someone very interesting editing with today uses that as a motto I think it's a beautiful motto it's never too late and if first you don't succeed try try again when it was the first big the real success that you had that you thought maybe big success as I don't know but that you thought I'm getting somewhere this is this is mattering now this is important wjr we're in our third and last home in this home is probably the best soil I'm living in GIG GIG harbor Washington we have a flat yard now it's very sandy soil it drains really well and this was the first place blaze after two prior homes that are starter home where we had our first child then when we had the second child my wife was like this house is too small gap to move and we did put a garden in there so this is the third of home we've owned where I've put in a garden in I can say without any hesitation hesitation this garden is outstanding and now I have read that she said you're making peace with mold slugs neighbors who feed rabbits absolutely absolutely the book has one chapter called Damn rapids habits with it w like the cartoon in we've he's had just these epidemic of rapids running around here in the puget sound and they're really troublesome you go to with all this trouble to put in your carrots to put in your lettuce or spinach whatever it may be your ETA mommy your string beans whatever they come like thieves it's in the night they have veracious appetite and they just mo- everything down so what I've learned is I make temporary fencing I get the cheapest would I can find it my local lumber store and I built frames and then I take bird netting I staple it to the wood and then I can take those frames in sizes that are manageable and lift them on and off my race let are manageable sizes I would say about four feet square feet four feet square depending on the size of your race dead men may be two feet high to the the bunnies around around here haven't learned how to do pole vaulting yet yes this about the deer have the deer are problem fence bigger fencing is the only thing you can do with deer and if they're really determined if they want to eat just you know dear dear can be they're beautiful to look at they're wonderful that we have the Miran but they come they'll find your strawberries and they won't eat like a strawberry they each just a little nibble from each one kind of ruining your harvest so fencing is the only thing I've really found that works with dearly do have offense at our house Dea kids have gardens to I'm glad you asked that question I have one child who is currently I get to brag about him he's at Stanford Law School Yay yea so he just started law school he was a schoolteacher before wants to have a bigger impact in his community so he decided on a law career the other one's a scientist this and he's super busy he does research on the brain right now he's doing experiments with mice he he's really up there the tall trees of science he started his own garden in he has to raise beds in the front of his little Bungalow House he works for the University of Colorado Denver Colorado in he put in these to raise beds and if you go to anti Becker dot life that's my website you can see Zia video blog where I interview him about what it took for him to put in raised beds what it meant to him to start a garden and then later Peter later I come back another year in I'm the during his harvest and you can't believe the peppers tomatoes Kale he's he's an unbelievable green thumb guy I don't know where he got it from because he's wail well exceeded anything I've produced in my garden but there's nothing for or apparent so nice as deceased simply like that happen absolutely in it's nice to see because it's not just my son on in his wife enjoying this garden every summer but their kids across the street they come over he never would have met those kids otherwise and then the kids get to see what he's up to is friends come over he has these beautiful peppers that he cooks in you just data little olive oil and salt in their wonderful and he has garden parties with things that he's grown himself and his wife enjoys it he he enjoys voices they're both super busy people to come home from a day's labour enjoy their garden what a pleasure that is it's fun it's I know I know you keep telling me that and I'm trying hard to believe it but never been a garden person however my mom and dad definitely were I can remember my mother other one year they're in they were in the Spokane Area Spokane Valley one year there's Akini crop was so plentiful that that my mom and my aunt by actually drove through spokane in Spokane Valley put as Zucchini and each phone with that was the days of phone books so that the person who made next smaetphone phone call would have Zucchini is it was kind of exciting Zucchinis Kinda plant Zucchini Plant Winter Zucchini plants you have enough the whole neighborhood for office again valley actually all valley absolutely so they had so many that they put them in the phone booth could her yesterday's never have that was just my mom and my aunt by that was a professional wrestler by the way but in this case she chose not to act on that the gardening leads to that kind of generosity because we have this wonderful earth that will produce so much in it's an abundance and if you think about it from a spiritual level God didn't want us just to have fuel to be able to do our toil labor God wanted us to have pleasure so when we eat that first strawberry of the season when we eat our raspberries in Washington we have beautiful blueberries that we can grow especially in this area in we eat that we not only are fueling our bodies that we're experiencing pleasure in from my perspective when we grow these fruits off the vine when we grow fruits from trees it's really league God's saying to us I'm the master of the universe I don't want you to just to exist I want you to know pleasure to my dad would have agreed with you I know one of the hardest things for him was when he could no longer get down to highlight down on your end jazz and couldn't do it anymore and so had raised beds really very large raised beds put in so that kind of sit on the edges goal around and works and and I know that that was comfort to him it wasn't the same but but you know it was at least he hadn't had to to give it to give it all up now you're publicity here says which I think you may have written but I'm not sure it says as you combine gardening tips with spiritual insight and I think we had the edge of spiritual inside go by just a minute ago but let's see what else have you got this is what I'd say every chapter in this book it's got a nice book by the way the illustrations I love it's really a gift book in the present for your favorite spiritual person your favorite gardening person through your Wannabe Gardner for your gardener owner of the future for your kids it really makes a fun- fund gift and it's a quick read it's a short read my writing style is more as less in I I have a wonderful illustrator Abigail Morales is more by the way Yeah Oh thank you for that thank you so much so it is a wonderful artist and she did these beautiful water colors that are in the book but in terms of the spiritual aspect aspect let me tell you I'll give you an example so I have one chapter called tick talk early Spring Gardner so this discusses in a practical way white so you need to do to get out there the weather might not be so pleasant but you've got to get out there you gotta get dirty on at that dirt turn to regain the beds all prepared but it also talks about time management's in what time means what the seasons me the importance of taking it vantage of each day in the opportunities it presents from a spiritual perspective let's think about it we have free will we get to decide how we're going to spend our time contrast that with the slaves you know the Jewish people were slaves in Egypt for four hundred years if you're a slave you don't own your own time the Pharaoh owns your time the Pharaoh tells you what to do here we live in this beautiful country this abundant thera- might be the iphone and we do have electronic rectangular devices that are dictating in just consuming time sort of put those aside Dorothy as you point out so adroitly to put those aside aside and to get a connection to nature to spirituality to ourselves to the rhythms of the season to the birds words were making those beautiful noises in the trees. You're out there laboring you're picking your weeds you're planning your sees the birds or watching view they're they're singing a beautiful song you're breathing the air you're making friends with an earthworm the earthworms are your friends you know the earthworms worms now our friends they're considered a very lowly creature frog friends but without them we wouldn't have anything to eat true true in that just kind of emphasizes the oneness of the Earth the garden Everything we eat comes from the earth in at some point you know will reach a point where pushing up daisies we're back doc in your well that is certainly true and how how clever of US remind listen I do understand slightly different topic that your wife makes a famous famous raspberry jams so this whole family thing her raspberry jam is so coveted so many people I have I heard friends and family tell me that they hide her aspiration from their own spouses from their own children put it it in secret hiding places so nobody can get at it it's that good that Chapter Raspberry Jim not only talks about growing raspberries in Washington state which is really easy to do by the way they almost grow like a week they're a fantastic plant to grow their minimal care but it also talks Alexa making raspberry jam from a spiritual perspective what I injected into that chapter was the division of Labor in marriage how in a successful marriage it's not really out do the dishes Monday Wednesday Friday and Saturday but light there's a rhythm everybody's doing their best in each spouse each partner in the marriage ends up the the filling a role kind of naturally in this is something that's recognized in many spiritual traditions might tradition has happens to be the Jewish tradition so I- quote about you know how how there is a natural kind of division of Labor in in marriage but everybody everybody has to do their part to make it work in every day by the way well now this is this show will run this is one of our Thanksgiving series of shows in so in a way of well definitely we've kind of gotten past garden season and yet you're still obviously really thinking about it what can you say to us about Thanksgiving gardening Thanksgiving is probably my personal favorite secular holiday of the year okay we get to really Lee enjoy the bounty of the year we have a beautiful spread all our family gets to come together in I have a wife and brother-in-law other in law who took all the pies to all the hard labor guess what I get to do I get to take Mike Two adult sons in their partners if they com in I get to take them away from the house to just get out of the way we get to have a nice lunch and then we come home it will go for a nice walk we come home home and here's this beautiful phenomenal spread I love the magically it just happened and is really fantastic as Thanksgiving thanks giving as a kid was always at my mom's house in we had such an assortment of characters in our family you know the great as uncle from the old days they've they all K- yeah and they all came to so wonderful in just our country has so much freedom in that we get together with our families and we give thanks it's a day of gratitude a day of Pleasure Ah Day Day of enjoying each other in what could be a better holiday than gardening on a day-to-day basis isn't exercise in Thanksgiving ingratitude. It's impossible to see a seed turn into stuff that we eat in not have fun and not feel thanks about that it's impossible I challenge anybody to go have a bountiful garden and not feel a lot of feelings of gratitude and Thanksgiving thanks give if you had to only one crop pretend that they took away all the seeds and you can only have one thing in your garden but you still l. we're going to have a garden would it be know what it would be I don't know what it would be the one raised bed it's just strawberries really strawberries stories you grow yourself you can they're they're the greatest antidepressant ever created on the face of the Errand you go they they're the one of the first things that are ready for harvest in this area and you go and eat those perfect strawberries you know April may hey there's nothing nothing better than that I can't think of anything better than and then you get another another batch of them later in the season when you now like when you come home from work like you're doing do you still do law person things I'm about half retired word I don't do active representation by do mediation arbitration in what's called settlement garden at Leiden reports so I'm a neutral now I don't do who advocacy for plaintiff or a defendant anymore but I'm unlike the the guy who wears out the carpet trying we get the other people to settle or sometime the judge the jury went on the arbitrator so do you come home and that's what you don't wear what question judge wear robes or anything but when when you come home and you take off your lawyer jacket by Golly I can hardly wait to get out in the guy that's it exactly that's it exactly in it's just such it should decompression it's so much fun in your putting all those worries behind you and your out smell in the dirt smell in the air

Dorothy Wilhelm Leiden four feet one year four hundred years two feet
Episode #25  Jason Donev & University Education

ONE Energy

58:12 min | 9 months ago

Episode #25 Jason Donev & University Education

"Jason donovan absolute pleasure to have you on the show. I know you and i had a brief conversation. Couple of weeks ago and Became a huge fan in that very moment so glad to have you on the show. Thanks for having me here. So tell me Tell me a little bit about yourself where you came from how he ended up as a professor. You've see tell me a little bit about your background. All right so See in the ancient distant past. I was born in toronto ontario. So american you know. It's it's really funny. You can over somebody in canada's from by how they react to that it because you know if you're in ontario and you're not from gta responses yeah tells you the responses what and if you're from alberta one is pretty similar nbc's like dude. I'm glad i passed the test of being albertans responding appropriately so on a mentally originally from toronto. Although i i left there at a fairly young age i i'm a canadian citizen. But born of american parents my parents decided to move back stateside. So i i got my training Most medication don the us finishing off a phd from university of washington Which has one of the top nuclear research groups in the world and i wasn't part of it I had nothing to do with this. And this is no confusion so the physics department actually has several different disciplines. And one of them. Is this nuclear physics group. And like i said they're they're great. People great stuff that that wasn't what i did. They had a physics education group where they were actually looking at how people learn science. And how you know how. People come to the table thinking about science. And what do we need to do. In order to get people to think differently about science because people have this sort of folk physics one of my favorite things do poke at people about the difference between velocity and acceleration. We cover in high school. We cover early on and yet more than half the engineering students coming out of university. Most universities wind up like with with a few key questions actually getting get velocity. Acceleration confused really embarrassing west. So people at the university of washington's physics education group have been absolutely instrumental in changing how physicists specifically about science as a way of getting people to recognize their own misconceptions at the university of washington Physics department of proud to say has won one of the best physics education research groups in the world. And i wasn't part of that. Either i was. I was actually a materials guy. So so i did some work on low temperature more salt water and we did this vacuum system and i wound up working. I did it did a couple internships in eastern washington at pacific northwest national labs which is involved with among other things How do you clean up radioactive waste environment and so forth right So my my response to nuclear was nuclear. Bad everybody involved. Nuclear is bad right and And i really didn't want to have conversation about it at all. So finished up my phd and After finished at the university washington which was a wonderful place in a lot of very smart capable very intelligent people doing physics education research doing research in nuclear topics There's an applied physics group there. That really opened my eyes to how you could use physics in a very eh profoundly. Influential in useful way in society also wasn't part of that group at all right. Who were with murder than i was. And who really doing good stuff in the world. So i found myself miss odd situation after five years being locked in a basement chain to a microscope. Trying to trying to to do science. And it's it's this classic it's classic intimidating thing that often happens in grad. School is up. Until then i hadn't really thought it was kind of a bright guy i tell you. There's something about people going to grad school. That just sorta knox get down a bit ronco and there's a lot of smart people in the room in an impostor syndrome really came in where it was. You know who. Who am i to here. And what right do i have to be. So i finished up my phd in. I don't think anybody was more surprised than i was but but after after after years of being locked in a basement literally basement lab We had a. We had a tree that came in through the roof. That l. box wasn't like roots. Yeah yes right. That's our tree thing And i was looking at doing some post docs. And when i realized that the only reason i wanted to have a particular post doc because it would give me a lap of a window and the guy interview. He was actually a nobel laureate. John university of toronto can't can't say enough good things about him. The man is a class class. Act he he was Gracious courteous intelligent. Well-spoken well rounded seemed like a good mentor. Everybody who worked with him like a really great guy and do good stuff. Good good research good equipment. You know i'd be going back home to toronto. 'cause it was literally like eight blocks from where i was born while on the same street right on avenue road okay. Crazy includes routes so it was like man. I i i'm looking at this. And i just don't want the only reason i wanted that job. Even though it was a great guy doing good stuff. The only reason was lab with a window. So i said okay. So what's what's up with this like we. Who who am i. What's going on here. What what would keep me from being motivated to continue following the physics stream it was it was profound insight that i had the dreams that we have are often are often a reflection of the culture that we live in the dreams that we have are often a reflection of the culturally living. Okay keep blank. Selena your dreams one. The biggest problems is that most of most people's dreams are not actually their dreams The just a regurgitation of someone else's and we see this speaking as a father of gotta i've got a ten year old daughter and it's fascinating looking at how soon we start pressuring people about what do you. What are you gonna be when you grow up That that question is asked several thousand times children before they enter kindergarten. While so what do you want to be. When you grow up starts getting imprinted on online's earlier than our ability to read write. This is not a field of expertise of mine nas took about this and this is. This is your personal experience. There's things i'm experts in. This is an expert on expert in sort of a personal observation. That i i started off on this path of like like i think a lot of people do what he wants to be when you grow up and that question that profound profoundly intrusive and that profoundly obnoxious and presumptive question in a lot of ways really really keeps us from from from dreaming our own dreams and as a physicist. I found myself in the midst of not wanting to live the physics stream. Interesting would like. What is the physics dream to the majority of men like. Oh that's that's the goal nobel right like you show up you do research and and and for most physicists. You you teach enough to to justify the research that you do right. One of the profound profound confusions. That people have about universities. Although it's it's certainly a pardon me just a second shutting some stuff down. Seventy distracted profoundly confusing things about universities. Is that most people believe that universities are actually about teaching and they're universities are in the business of information universities create information and the research part They also curate information. And that's the library part and the The the so well explained even thought about that for so they create curate seminary as we said right. Yeah makes yeah. I wanted to originally with create curie and communicate Just you'd have the three seats how it turns out that communicate is not actually the best verb to to use to describe that. So if you've got one that starts with c. Please let me know. Because i totally one of mic. Drop that the three cs. But at the moment it's really create curate and what about collaborate. The thing is that you collaborate within a university and in collaboration is a big thing but collaborating within a university is specifically for the purpose of creating creating or or disseminating fair enough fair enough so russians important part of how we do what we do but it is not at a fundamental level what we do make sense now within those three categories within within the university. And there's there's an awful lot if i've got an entire talk on this There's an awful lot that you can actually unpack within each of that. So at the moment i'm in my my my home office because covid none right on campus and so right great and and i'm in the same room is probably close to two hundred books. Which is roughly the same number of books. I have in my my office on campus. Love it and an eye heavy personal library and it turns out that when we talk about curiosity information within university we don't just meeting with librarians. Do what you do. What every academic does and grad student will actually start the process security information interesting much. These days is digital right. These the papers you've read. These are the notes that you have made about the papers that you have read which become part of your education. So one of the. The sad rituals that happens within academia is when when a faculty member academic dies or retires. They actually hand off their their books to the university. I'm or just give give away. They give away to grad students to other faculty members to the library. Some of it just gets thrown out. Oh okay and and that. That process has to happen while the the disposal at the end of a career is so in sort of sad thing. But as you're as you're moving along to getting there the process of building up a person's information. Neil you is an important part of how we function as knowledge beings so our brains are no longer capable and haven't been for a long time of holding all the knowledge that is ours right. So so what happens is and this is this is this is kind of independent whether it's digital or dead trees when when we are in the process of building up all of this information we are synthesizing it in our heads into our own expertise. But i can't actually keep all that information my head so i need access to all of this right so so that's the part now. Libraries also do a really really important thing. My my wife sent an academic wasn't academic librarian. Sharon's publishing house but Yes she runs largest independent science fiction science fiction. That is that is So so she. She has deeper things to say about librarian ship than i do. But but this this idea of curation of information is itself a science which or discipline it's a. It's a sophisticated skill. That experts build up career right. And it's really kind of funny. My my wife and many of her professional colleagues within that field referred to their google flu and to to steal a quote from that crowd. Gook will give you a million answers a librarian. We'll give you a one. You're looking for like i like that. Yeah it's not my stolen just flight so so when we're talking about universities as information hubs as information businesses This this whole this whole thought process started as a result of having resentment with a friend of mine who Who had a business degree. And he told eight from the university of calgary and he told me that at the end of the day the only thing that matters when the candy store closes is the amount of money in the till. And i. And i said that's not true. University says no. It's true everything that's not my household. That's not true the nonprofit organization. I want to rent. That's not true of My university it's not true of who i am as a professional right It's not true with the ngos that i'm involved with But i spent a long time trying to actually articulate what it was that was wrong with that statement that at the end of the day the only thing that matters how much money you have because it's wrong but it appeals a certain level that it's it's not throw it out in thirty seconds like i really had to sit down and tear it apart. Which is what led to this this presentation that i originally put together on these different parts of of university because what really matters to people in universities is what he had in terms of information right so libraries and i. I'm talking way outside my field here but libraries will actually go to troubled. Be unique curator's up museums do a similar sort of thing where you make sure that this particular body of knowledge is preserved. So university of calgary for example has the the gibson science fiction collection which is a wonderful wonderful collection of original science fiction materials donated by a very rich person here in alberta who who loves sifi right And as a result of the university of calgary having the gibson collection that means maybe the university of alberta doesn't have to have that because it's already taken care right so so. When i say that that curation is an important part of what a university does. It's it's important to understand getting back to your idea about collaboration that the curation happens within a network that spans the globe bright guy. The second piece is the piece that is from the standpoint of people who work in academia the most important is the creation of information the research. Yeah all that research. And and when i say Creation of information i really need any kind of scholarly work. So is a a a literature professor writing new novel doing research I don't know. But i think that it is the disciplined equivalent of discovering something new within physics or if A composer composes a new piece. Or if a a musicologist comes up with a new way of talking about in thinking about the music that we listened to. I'm putting that on the same footing as we have discovered a new fundamental particle. And nobody's ever seen before to to my way of thinking. Those are all equivalent because it is all knowledge creation Right okay And to most to most of the people working in the academy you you wind had that that is king it. It drives much of the the finances. It drives much of what the priorities are for. Who gets hired. Who gets promoted a who is capped. Who's allowed to slip away right but then the other piece is there's dissemination we can't just we can't just greedily hold on to it Nor nor can we just created. There has to be this transmission to other minds so there can be new synthesis right now once again. This is also peels appears in a number of different forms most obviously in peace that most vault with his teaching but it also involves things like mentoring graduate students. even mentoring. new faculty members Any sort of public outreach like this is talk. We're having right now right. All of these things boil down at some level to we are doing a transmission of information. It is it is being disseminated and it is being went on properly. it's being disseminated in a way that is useful to the person who is listening. We can't just simply put numbers on a website and have that that facing right you bring you bring up a context you bring up so many interesting ideas from just these three simple They're not simple but they you group them together in a simple to understand way which was quite profound creation curation and dissemination of knowledge. One question i did have. I guess. We'll jump to a right now because we're kind of on the topic of the dissemination of knowledge is do you. Do you feel that. Like with how much media social media. Do you feel that that has done a service to the dissemination of knowledge or a disservice made it easier for people to understand science because it's easier to access or is it made it harder because people outside of the stream of academia or that aren't directly associated with it. They have an interpretation or opinion and then they fled the internet with that and then it becomes convoluted and confusing. And so i'm gonna circle back to this question. Okay and if i fail to hold my feet to the fire and right deal i i. Yeah 'cause 'cause you're asking about about me and how to get to be where. I am touche fair enough so many ideas. I want to talk to you about so i'll let you. I'll let you so the so so circling back around to the you know my my path. Okay i decided that the part of universities that i really wanted over sorry that was actually very much. You know that the response that i have mixture like knows like no what i wanna do is t- that was you know the whoa. Whoa you basically. I have a mixture. Here it i exhibit. Lean my hand on it played. That's out totally totally did me to do that. So so i was at a conference the university of british columbia back in my grad school days. Okay actually up even further. I was at the national avenue mentioned while he's still grad student. Doing doing that work at at the hanford site civic northwest national lab. They do great work. They're great people then So i was there and we were out for a walk and the nobel prizes had come out so it's just walking some other. Scientists and nobel prizes would come out and we were talking about the nobel prize in physics and chemistry and medicines of worth. And i had this quite realization that i would rather have a student of mine winning nobel prize in one myself Why why why. Why did you like that. It's a better match for my skill set and it was my first inkling that i didn't want to live other people's dreams for me it is. It's not the first time. I had actually taken action to live my own dreams as opposed to letting somebody else's but it's where that light about knowing who i am being true to who i am deciding who i am living my life in such a way that's consistent with my own. Values became so key. So so i had this realization. Just a thought that flooded through my head but its stock. Self-generated mean if you will support of your own means as opposed to just once you find right right so couple years later. Still in grad school work on. Hd amid of conference the university of british columbia and a rather famous physicist works for ibm Madonna uglier okay. If you've seen ibm written in thirty five zero adams no. I don't think i have do a quick. Google ibm zine ibm z. Non thirty five. You said. I think it's thirty five but just ibm on should be enough to pull it up. Oh cool cool okay. So don the guy who figured out how to move individual atoms around cool and place them someplace that they'll stick. That's that's cool. He's he's really nice really guy. Is he the same guy. Actually now that. I'm googling this is the same guy that made the the the the video. There's a video of. i've seen it before like. Yeah yeah this the same guy. It's the same technology and team. I don't know. I don't know dot like i never talked to don conference So i i don't know what is he was specifically involved with. But it's the same technology gadget barikot. So he was presenting on this. This idea where you have a an atomic flat surface. And then you'd make when you can make a circle and then you put an atom in the middle and you could actually see the quantum mechanical waves come out from that. Just monstrous monstrously cool. Take on and then the other video. The the other thing that he was he was presenting on was actually creighton. Ellipses and if you if you remember from your your high school. Math analysis has two focal points and the distance from one focal point to the other focal point. By way of hitting any point on the ellipse is always equal to go from one focal point to the other focal point. And as you go around the ellipses. It's it's all the same right. Put an atom at one of those focal points and it created a mirage of adam at the other focal point. that's crazy. It is way cool physics. So so this idea that i had about. I'd rather have a student among win another prize than one myself. Over the course of my grad career i. I realized that. I loved reading about this stuff. I love learning about this stuff. And i love talking about the stuff but when i had spent years doing this the the soul crushing internal like am i right. Am i wrong showing up everyday. Research is not solving problems. Researchers working on problems you solve problems along the way but in a lot of ways academic research is you. You just show up. You bang your head against a problem until the blood falls in the paper. It spells something and then you have it. Just i don't enjoy. I've made scientific discoveries because anybody with a phd has to write and my biggest joys. Were never the scientific discoveries some at this conference doniger Is is presenting. he's a plenary speaker. He's the kind of big shot talking to everybody. Converts people there and next to a friend of my phd advisers who it turned out later. She was also a big deal. But i didn't know that because it turned out my phd is actually much bigger. Deal than i recognized at the time. Sort of like your dad's never actually cool. Yeah you phd. Adviser can't actually be cool. It's not a thing. So i had. I didn't realize that. When i walked around said hi. I'm sam faint grad student The people are like. Oh you work for san fran san really good guy so so i had met. I met this woman Ill rica diebold really nice really smart as it turned out Although i wasn't smart enough to figure that out at the time she's she's actually a really really sharp cookie so so we're sitting there unless you don either talk about this this Alexis am like you know a parabola also has a focal point. Am what. I am gleaning story because like you should tell don about that and i'm like oh yeah i'll just walk up to world famous scientist dawn and tell him my idea she was. You're at a conference. That's the point of conference getting back to this idea of. What's the point of university when we're talking about things like conferences conferences or an extension of that. It's an opportunity for information to be curated. That's your conference proceedings. Right information be created. Now in that case it's more the synthesis of hearing new ideas from new perspective from other experts in the field. And of course it is also disseminated. Although i would say in that case it's it's more communicated and she but she was like no that's the whole point of why we're here grad students are supposed to go up to the world famous scientists and say. Hey i've got this crazy idea And if you if you look at the history of science there's actually there's actually a fair amount of historical evidence for this and it's not just science that that happens to be my field. So that's what i can talk most meaning for sure but you have young creative minds showing up and popping off these ideas to experienced hands. The the the support of the old knowledgeable veteran taking the the fresh new ideas from the creative energies of the youth. And this is one of the reasons why it's so important to have. Universities have old crotchety people and and kids today. When you look at national labs national labs also great work but places like pacific northwest. National lab will often bring in students for this fresh ideas that fresh energy keep. Everybody engaged a note. So i go up to doniger. So he's just presented his paper the really really exciting. I think it made the front page of nature or science or something and you just presented on this. So i walk up to him and i explain. I explain the the idea that i have that you could. You could not just use melissa's but you could actually use a parabola and could put an atom at the focal point to the parabola and then the way travel works is the distance from the focal point to the parabola. To direct. Tricks is always the same I was thinking you could get a quantum. Mechanical plane wave at the directorates. Which i thought would ruin really cool and it would be really really cool but in the middle of me explaining this to him. Don's lake doctor is like. I'm sorry i don't understand so we actually takes a pen out of his pocket hands me as nap can deriving the whole thing on his napkin and realize in the middle of the derivation. I am drawing on this world. Famous scientists hand that. I've done the math wrong. Because the thing that makes that that mirage appear is that it's the same distance and the thing that makes the direct tricks not actually be a column naked plane wave. Is that the different the distance between a given point your folk your focal point given point on the parabola and the director. It's the same between the focal point in the direct tricks but every single point on the director is different. So you won't get a plane wave. Okay hide i realize in the middle of the derivation and i turned beet. Red vanished into the crowd went to found a washroom locked myself nostalgia and threw up no way mortified. Whoa that's crazy. Why didn't actually throw up. But i did lock myself in a stall. That is that. I can only imagine how that would have helped. So you have never been so embarrassed in my life or hadn't been so embarrassed my life up until that point. We have more to the story so the next day later that day i noticed dawn and my adviser were walking along and chatting together and the next day. I'm having lunch and sam my advisers like. Yeah so you really impressed. On as like. But i was wrong. Goes sure everyone's wrong. We can't train you to have ideas. What we can do is we can help you. Figure out which ideas are worth pursuing But you can never train somebody to have ideas. They either have ideas. They don't kind of black and white like that right. It's really just kind of black and white like that so so the idea was created and it was worth looking at and it was worth thinking about and it was worth discussing even if it happened to be wrong. It was an intelligent idea that didn't happen to bear fruit Everyone fears that idea though right like everyone is afraid of being wrong so it it's almost like people maybe an i really cool idea is limited because people don't want to share it because they thera frayed of being wrong. Yeah no. I agree so the next day. We're mike my adviser. And i are having lunch in a crowded cafeteria. Just the two of us at the table. You got there early. So other people were coming in and dawn decided to join us for launched. I'm like oh going out. He's he's he's so nice and he's so cool he's he's so you know gal -tarian about everything right like we're just world famous scientists sitting with grad student and shreeves out well known advisors well but you know what do you what do you do right. So he sits down and then this british guy who's apparently friends with dawn asks he can join us eat. You sounded british sure. I'm an inclusive. Kind of guy. Have a seat. So he sits down next to me. And sam keeps talking with with don and i start talking with this. This british guy named john. So we're chatting and were were talking about my research and and his research a bit and whatever you do. Don't ask me what it's good for. He laughed. He said i work at the interface between academia government and industry. And what i can tell you is every time intelligent. People attack interesting problems with good tools. You always find something It's fascinating to me. Because i really thought that you're your idea of growth mindset. Tell me tell me about it okay. So there's fixed mindset growth minds fixed mindset says I'm born with certain amount of ability. I will never be able to grow growth mindset. Says i will be grow if i sit down and try to play guitar and i can't play guitar. A fixed mindset will say it will never be a guitar player. Growth mindset says. I'm not a guitar player yet. Right one of the interesting ways. We have instilled a fixed mindset about science is we act like science or engineering or art or music or theater is only available to the gifted few who seem to be born. Brilliant couldn't be further from the truth. what happens. Is people show up with their passion and their passion drives their practice and passion. Driving the practice eventually forms skills. There is a certain amount of talent but above the above and beyond the innate talent. There is the dry. I did not have the drive to do research So so this idea leads to people believing that there's a very small number of people who can do research. And i can tell you just speaking physics alone but i think the same things drew geology chemistry or environmental science or biology. Whatever if every single person on the planet decided they wanted to study physics there would still be in physics go. There'd be enough unknown problems. There would be things for people to discover. Physics is big enough for everyone to come. And i assume that there's nothing special physics on that front that i think every discipline could actually have every. I think it'd be terrible if every person world pursued the same discipline but there is enough space for it right and i had thought entering grad school. I remember talking to a lot of my friends about this. We were all worried that what if we weren't able to discover something. That's the easy part going to grad school with the intention of discovering something to hang out for a few years do the work you will will every time you discover what you intended to most of the time. Discover something right and probably even worthwhile. So this idea that it's there for the The researchers there for the passion was what this guy john was telling me and he was just he was so profound. So why's that conversation has really changed. The course of my life and i was so moved that i told him about that. Convert that that previous realization. I had had that. I told you about a few minutes ago. About being present and recognizing that where my passion really goes is explaining things to people Mentoring people. I've summed up my job. As i help other people's dreams come true i love it. Yeah i like that So i tell them this that. I had had this realization. That i'd rather have a student mind. Win win a nobel prize in one myself and john choke son is food and we're not allowed cafeteria and i couldn't actually quite make out the next thing that he said but something or other fucking waste of time something or other nine hundred eighty six and but he claps me on the shoulder and says well when you win one and a student of your wins one you let me know which one you like better And he gets up and he walks away. Let's kind of unfortunate as couple days later back from the conference and sam says so jason. Are you really that much of an asshole or did you actually not know who that was. And i said who what was he. Goes john palani nobel laureate nineteen eighty six and i went. I told nobel prize winner. That i'd rather have a student mind nobel prize win one myself and sam said you also told nobel laureate who also has a student who won a nobel prize i think and that wound up eclipsing the previous most embarrassing moment of my life from the same conference a covid doll these life changing moments heck matter of hours. Yeah so so. The funny thing is truly intelligent spiritual important rich powerful people never waste any effort telling you how truly important spiritual rich powerful influential wealthy well-connected They are They just don't they just know And john palani is an excellent example. I have limited interactions with him. But but from my limited interactions with him he is an excellent example of somebody who has arrived and does not need to prove that anybody And in my interactions with him which like i said we're limited There is this and then there was the time. I actually went to the university of toronto. To to interview for a post doc with him and based on only those interactions. So you know you can potentially. I've never really researched who he is beyond my interactions with enough yet He made it really really clear to me that he didn't need to impress anyone he didn't need to Prove to me. Anything at all And he knew who he was and he was totally and completely comfortable with that. What's funny about. It is when he offered me a job in his lab the realization. What will he told me was. He always tells his students not to go into academia but he's always glad that they ignore him so so what happened was he wasn't my mentor. But he taught me what i needed to know so when i finished my phd university of puget sound. Wanted somebody to come in and teach somebody who's going on sabbatical. They needed somebody for year. I wound up staying too. And i made some truly egregious mistakes in my first couple years of teaching which. I'm really glad that we're not gonna talk about today. And then i went onto saint martin's university and i taught for your bucknell and then i came back to saint martin's university and literally while we were driving from pennsylvania which is where bucknell is to washington. Which is where saw okay. Gotcha i was gonna ask. Yeah we're in denver. At the time. And i get an email from the university of calgary saying do you wanna come here and work and we. I wrote him back and said there's a lot that i'm not gonna say because i'm being recorded but the the the quick version that that i don't mind being recorded and broadcast is i said i'd like to chat. Yeah let's let's do this. We drove the rest of the way. Unloaded the hall and flew up the university of calgary and i interviewed at the university of calgary and what i realized in interviewing. The university of calgary was that there was a a jason shaped hole. At the university of calgary they needed somebody who was just like me Because i spent five years teaching at teaching focused undergraduate institutions in the us schools that really really focus on delivering a high quality educational experience for their students. Where research is secondary teachings primary. Gotcha so i had never intended to wind up at a research focused institution quite the opposite. Actually quite the opposite. So i'd intended to be at a teaching focused institution and do good teaching And one of the things. I really liked about being at saint martin's university Saint martin's university is practically what we would call an open access school. If you've got a pulse the tuition money and a high school diploma you can you. Can you can go right. Olga and really two out of the threes probably enough and and the thing. The thing that i loved about saint martin's universities. There were lot of first generation students people whose family they were the first people or family to go to university. Let's go medical. Who were really scared of. What am i Betraying my class by an engineer or becoming a teacher or nurse end and it was. I feel so blessed to have been a part of those students lives because it was. It was just profoundly moving to be at a school where i really felt like. I was making different So came to the university of calgary and they hired me because i came out of the university of washington. And they said oh. You've got a background in physics education research. And i'm like well. I was at a school that had a physics education research program but as i said back at the beginning of this they do great work but i was never part of that group Group and they taught me important things about teaching how to teach what to teach how to actually get people to sit down and think how to change people's minds. And i do believe that what i'm teaching. I am changing people's minds. The tricky thing is. I don't know where they're starting and i don't know where they're going. It's not that i'm molding. Somebody's mind into what i wanted to be. It's i'm helping other. People refine their mind into what they want to be. So the university of washington's physics education research group Really taught me a lot of profound things about how to do that in a meaningful way. How to help somebody else have their best educational experience rather than just download in my own right which it takes a lot of time energy and effort so so when it comes to it i show up at the university of calgary in the university of calgary says you know what we want somebody who has your background teaching by that point. I'd also learned a lot for bucknell and from saint martin's from the university of puget sound which is common washington I learned a lot from them. And i brought those skills to the table and they said oh we also need somebody who can teach about nuclear. And i said well you know. The university of washington has a top notch nuclear research program this again. We're aware that. And i'm like yeah but i wasn't involved with it at all. And they said you think you can teach a class about nuclear power. And i said let me be clear. I needed a job. And if you're in a job interview somebody says can you blah. The answer is yes. The answer is yes. Yeah whatever you need. I'll do it. Yeah yeah so. So they asked. Can you teach about nuclear power. And i said sure uses uranium right. And and i had been at pacific northwest national ads. Where radioactive waste cleanup had had gone on A nuclear power. It's evil it's horrible. it's awful. I got this. So so i sat down and tried to learn enough about nuclear power to to meaningfully to meaningfully. Teach a course on So i sat down. Read a bunch of anti-nuclear activists works as a way of getting myself started. And and i'm like okay. These people are crazy. They're obnoxious and they don't know what they're talking about They are clearly not connected to the physics at all scientifically way off base. Right and then. I went and looked at the pro-nuclear people 'cause i'm going to try and be balanced about this. I'm like well clearly. I can't trust them because you know they're they're industry shells and so forth and okay. At least they seem to be getting the science right. But i can't trust him. They worked for the street. And i remembered. I had gone conference years before. It's gonna keep loading that. Uvc conference and i had met this guy. John hewish great great man He did a wonderful expose years ago on the poor quality of american science textbooks. What an interesting totally into ronstadt was actually listed as being a vacuum try owed in a middle school science textbook so had shown up and giving a talk on on his science textbook work and then he did a different talk on nuclear power and it had made such a profound impact on me that this guy who was clearly physicist in a good guy. Because i'd had dinner with them Six or seven years later. I i actually tracked him down. And you don't remember me. I met you at a conference but you actually understand. How nuclear works. Could you please give me some information and this is probably going to be the crux of different conversation. 'cause running out of time here. What i discovered is that when i had a personal relationship with somebody i could sit down and start talking about the things that i didn't know the comfort that i felt with him. As a physicist allowed me to recognize the limitations of my own knowledge and set aside my preconceptions then met a man by the name. dr jeremy. Mike strongly encouraged to get on the show. You would love talking with him. How come i've heard that name before. He sounds so familiar. Yeah he's the guy who runs nuclear faq dot ca. That's why i can introduce you to him. Because he's a good guy to talk to you and jerry fielded a phone call for from me. Having never heard of me. And i was just like i've i've got a. I've got to teach about nuclear and he just patiently sat me answered all my questions because he he really is passionate about nuclear deluged. Nuclear is an important part of cans energy future so so i had to teach this class and as somebody with phd in physics whose job dependent on him understanding this. I couldn't find information that i felt i could trust is. It couldn't find good information. I couldn't find information that i felt. I could trust interesting because you felt that the industry like people were biased because they in the industry. That's why so. So when when i came back around to it i'm like okay. I now feel like i can do this. The longer i studied nuclear the more. I went wait a second. This is the answer to so many of the world's problems is the answer to access to medical care. unequal distribution of wealth access to water Access to electricity of course cleaning up the environment dealing with the waste problem right stopping climate change nuclear. I mean it's not that nuclear can do everything by itself but nuclear the more. I looked into it the more i found myself going. Oh my preconceptions were completely totally offer end. I became very passionate about this. But what i noticed is that we're always talking about nuclear in isolation. what do you mean by that. I mean when people talk when people get up and talk about nuclear okay. Well what about the waste. I'm like okay. What do you do with the waste. Recall right but you don't ask the question what we do with the western solar right right. You don't ask are where do you get it from. Where do you get the resources materials. Exact right right so so what i did was. I sat down that put together. A course that covers the entire energy sector with nothing more than grade ten math lau and that led to meeting pocket of money that allowed me to create a free online textbook. Energy education dot ca. Yeah it's brilliant by the way. Check it out bank ios listening. Go check it out. Put it in the show notes for everyone to go. Check it out. So yeah we're we're getting fifteen to eighteen thousand views a day. Wow really that's incredible. Yeah that that's a whole conversation. Just didn't have itself so i appreciate it shout And what i gotta say. Is you know the the big secret to success. In academic is higher smart students and i have. I have hit that out of the park. My my students have really really proud me. well And the energy education website is an excellent example of how i've had passionate intelligent capable energetic. students really bring their game to to the table. And what we found. Is that when we have these conversations about energy and we start with. This is who i am as a person. It intrigues people enough to actually keep them coming back and finding out more right right. So i think that's probably a good place to end it for today. We'll We'll have to repick this up another time and And keep the conversation going but your listeners can can put in specific questions that That they feel that. I failed to address properly but i i will say that. Everyone knows less about energy than they think we do. I would agree that and it's a. It's very much this this You know psychological disturbance about that So see. Have you have your listeners. Come up with some questions that they want to hear in part two of this if they want to have a part to this oh for sure i wanna have a part to an end to just quickly touch on that last point. There people know less about energy than they think they do. Is the one thing that humbled me to my knees but was transmission. Like i feel like no one little to no one really understands how the energy grid works aisher. Aisher did an absolutely blew me away but Yeah i yeah. I appreciate you sharing your insights about education. I think you are in a very unique position and a very cool position. And i'm very grateful that you are where you are because you are such a good educator. You're so well spoken that people are obviously you know. The evidence speaks for itself. You know people aren't coming to your website and checking out how you are conveying nuclear in a way that that connects with people better than than people in industry. So really really. Appreciate you for what you're doing and you're you're you're balanced mindset in approaching approaching energy. I think it's it's very inspiring. So thank you. Yeah we're we're actually watching a video series called knowing nuclear because unfortunately there are certain things about nuclear that. Don't translate well particular website so we're We've got a series of knowing nuclear videos that we can. We can also have you lincoln gap. And i'm serious. Either you or your wife. Or what are your students. They they need to do a nuclear in media. I think it'd be so fascinating what's true. What's not true series on that you do. Oh yeah we can. We can put those okay all right. Well thank you. Thanks jason or dr donna of I really appreciate off the. We'll do this again. Our thanks for all right appreciate it took

university of calgary ibm doniger toronto university of washington's phy university of washington Physi pacific northwest national lab John university of toronto university of washington don ontario sam washington alberta Jason donovan university of british columbia hanford site civic northwest n john palani saint martin's university san fran san
Ted Bundy

Killer Knowledge

31:41 min | 1 year ago

Ted Bundy

"The Ted Bundy remains one of the most intriguing serial killers in the history of United States during the seventies Bundy kidnapped raped and murdered. Numerous young women using his charm and good looks to lure them into his traps shortly before he was executed. Bundy confessed on tape to committing thirty murders. Although some investigators believed the true number to be much higher. Welcome to kill her knowledge. A podcast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as to players go head to head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders that shocked the nation violent mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top for the mysteries of unsolved cases like the Black Dahlia. This week we're quizzing knowledge about the charismatic killer. Ted Bundy joining me today to test. Their true crime expertise are robbed from Berkeley. Who is in digital sales in jared from San Diego? Who is a copywriter? Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me happy here before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park asked originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners lease review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and on twitter at par Cast Network Rob and Jared Leslie out the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. A B and C. Broken up into three rounds fair warning the questions. We'll get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer earns you the points for that question and incorrect answer gives the other player the chance to get it right. Rob If you buzz and I will hear this sound. Jared your buzzer. Sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the park cast golden headphones. Make sense to you both. Yep sounds good okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first round. The questions will follow a young Ted Bundy as he evolves from a troublesome child into a ruthless killer while Bundy's first confirmed murders didn't take place until he was an adult. There are theories he may have killed. As a child stemming from the disturbing behavior he showed at an early age for Bundy life began in a very complicated way to start. He wasn't even born with the name. Ted Bundy question number one. What was Bundy's given name at birth a Theodore Anthony Nugent be Theodore Robert Cowl? See Theodore Shah Wilson Rob Be Theodore Robert Cal. Correct Bundy's birth name was B. Theodore Robert cowl. He was born in Burlington Vermont in November nineteen forty-six at a home for unwed mothers. His mother twenty two year old. Eleanor Luiz cowl. Went by Louis. The name Bundy would come later from his stepfather. Johnny Bundy who married Louise In nineteen fifty. One Rob One jared zero because of Louise's age and Marital Status Ted was labelled illegitimate. His family chose to hide this fact from the neighborhood so for the first few years of his life. Ted's family claimed his grandparents were his mother and father for question number two. How did Ted's family claim? Luiz was related to head. They said she was a his aunt. Be His cousin. See his sister. Jared see his sister. Ted's family told him that Lewis was see his sister. According to the book the Stranger beside me by an rule. Bundy confirm the truth in one thousand. Nine hundred sixty nine. After locating his original birth certificate the certificate also included the identity of his father. Lloyd Marshall a salesman and Air Force veteran that makes the score one to one ted. Bundy was socially awkward as a kid and sometimes crossed the lines of normal behavior at one point while still very young. He was caught placing knives around his aunt while she slept. And after moving to Tacoma Washington with his mother in nineteen fifty. A teenage bundy would dig through garbage cans looking for discarded pornography question number three. What else did Bundy admit to doing? While a teenager in Tacoma Washington a killing stray animals around the neighborhood be spying on women around the neighborhood. See Setting small fires around the neighborhood. Jarrett a killing stray animals that is incorrect. Rob Be spying on women. The correct answer is B. He would spy on women in the book Ted Bundy conversations with a killer. Bundy admitted he would get drunk and quote canvas the community for draped windows to see whatever he could that makes the score rob to jared one after graduating high school in nineteen sixty. Five in unfocused Bundy was in and out of colleges. He finally enrolled for a second time at the University of Washington in nineteen sixty nine on. That's where he met and fell in love with the school employees. It was a rocky romance that would last for seven years question number four. What was the real name of? Bundy's on again off again girlfriend. A Elizabeth Clever B. Elizabeth Kendall C make Anders Jarryd. Hey Elizabeth Clever Elizabeth clap for is the right answer. Their relationship would even continue into his incarceration in Utah. In nineteen seventy six clever published a book about the relationship under the name Elizabeth Kendall and was referred to as Meg Anders in an rules. Book the Stranger beside me that makes the score to two two from nineteen seventy to nineteen seventy-two bundy state focused worked hard and finally graduated from the University of Washington. Question number five in. What field did Bundy get his bachelor's degree hey psychology be biology see sociology rob see sociology? That is incorrect. Jared a psychology. Yes bundy graduated with distinction with a psychology degree. Then he wanted to attend law school. In September nineteen seventy-three. Bundy began taking night classes at the School of law at the University of puget sound but his law school attendance would be interrupted by his desire to kill. That makes the score. Jared three rob two in early. Nineteen seventy four. Several women went missing and were murdered in the Seattle area as we now know this is when officials claimed Ted Bundy truly became a serial killer question. Number six according to the timeline of his murders. During what years did Bundy operate as a serial killer? A nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy six. B Nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy eight. See Nineteen seventy four to nineteen eighty ROB B. Nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy eight. It is be nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy eight but as we mentioned before some theorized. Bundy killed much earlier eight year. Old Ann Marie. Burr disappeared when Bundy was fourteen years old. He always denied any involvement in her disappearance. That makes the score. Three three Bundy's first confirmed murder took place in February nineteen seventy four when he attacked and abducted Linda an healy from her home near the University of Washington. Healy was known in the community forgiving. The Weekday Ski Report on the radio when she didn't show up for work. Her boss informed her roommates and they began to suspect. Something was wrong. Question number seven. What Evidence did detectives fine to suggest foul play a bloody knife? Be Bloody fingerprints. See Bloody Bedsheets Jared see bloody bedsheets? The correct answer is c bloody sheets. Investigators also found blood on. He Leaves Nightgown. The only closed that were missing. Where the one she had been wearing the night before before kidnapping her Bundy had beaten. Healy unconscious then. Put her back in her blue jeans. Light blasts and boots that makes the score four to three in favor of Jared Bundy spent most of nineteen seventy four killing young females in Washington and neighboring Oregon roughly once a month a big part of his. Mo involved alluring victims to his Volkswagen Beetle. Witnesses began filing reports with police. The description of Bundy and his car went public. So question number. Eight according to witnesses. What caller was BUNDY'S VW? Beetle Silver Be Tan. See White Rob. Hey silver that is incorrect. Jared be Tan. Bundy drove a hand Volkswagen Beetle. A multiple witnesses also described an attractive man who used the name Ted and sometimes spoke with a British or Canadian accent. That makes the score. Five to three for jared now in order to get his victims near his car bundy regularly employed the same ruse to fool the unsuspecting victims into helping him question number nine. Which of the following is a trick? He regularly used a he asked for help reading a MAP BE. He claimed his keys. Were stuck in the lock see. He wore his arm in a sling. Rob See war is. The answer is C. Bundy war his arm in a sling till look helpless wants his victim got near the car. He would strike them over the head and forced them into the vehicle. Bundy had removed the passenger seat. Creating space on the floor for his victims to lie out of sight as he drove away. That makes the school. Jared five rob four. When August Nineteen seventy-four ted? Bundy was accepted to the University of UTAH. Law School he moved to Salt Lake City leaving behind his girlfriend. Elizabeth Police Investigations and flyers. That had been distributed all round Seattle with a description of him and his car. The move did not stop him from killing again however not every woman. Bundy tried to kidnap and murder fell victim to his schemes question number. Ten to end round one in November nineteen seventy four which Bundy's victims escaped from his car and later testified against him. A Carol Dhiraj Be Laura. An amy see Melissa. Ann Smith Rob. Be Laurie and amy his incorrect. Jared see Melissa. Ann Smith Matt is also incorrect. The correct is a Carol ranch while all three women were attacked by Bundy to Raunch was the only one who escaped alive. Bundy picked her up outside of the Fashion Place. Mall in Murray. Utah that November. He claimed he was a police officer and had seen someone trying to break into her car. The score remains five to four. In favor of jared now. It wasn't until the following year. August nineteen seventy-five when police arrested Bundy for the first time. After pulling him over and his Volkswagen they found suspicious items including handcuffs rope and a ski mask. This is when the clues of Bundy's crimes would start adding up and Carol ranch would help confirm his identity that brings us to the halfway mark. We've now covered Bundy from youth to kill her. When we come back we'll see robin jared know-how Bundy escaped from prison twice as he continued to murder more innocent women and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Welcome back you're listening to killer knowledge. I'm Carter Roy. Robin Jared are competing in our Trivia. Podcast to see. Who's the real true crime expert this week? We're looking back at the life and murders of American serial killer Ted Bundy. The score is jared five rob four and before we get into round two. Let's get a little rules. Update the questions are still multiple choice. Abc in the correct answer is worth one point each. However there's a twist in this round called the killer question. That question is worth three points because there are no multiple choice options. You either know the answer or you. Don't you better hope you know it because one player will be eliminated at the end of this round to keep playing? Yep Ready Okay. Here we go with around two other questions in this round will take us up. Until Bundy's final attacks has law enforcement struggled to keep him contained now after several women had been assaulted or killed and Carol Durant Gift Bundy's attempted kidnapping his on again off again girlfriend. Elizabeth Clap for from Seattle began contacting authorities and Salt Lake City to report suspicions that Bundy was the culprit. They soon added him to their list of suspects. At the beginning of nineteen seventy five. Bundy took his criminal ways on the road. Again for question number eleven. What state did bundy travel to where he killed several more women? After leaving. Salt Lake City a Arizona the Colorado See Wyoming rob a Arizona that is incorrect jared be Colorado the Colorado is the right answer. Bundy would also travel to Idaho in. May Nineteen seventy five where? He took the life of one of his youngest victims. Twelve-year-old year old. Lynette dawn culver that makes the score. Six two four jared. Unfortunately the walls closed in on Bundy. Between August and October of nineteen seventy five police found suspicious items and hair from victims in. Bundy's Volkswagen landing him in a police lineup where Carol durant identified him as her attacker. The kidnapping and murder charges against Bundy were set in June. Nineteen seventy seven. He found himself in a courtroom in Aspen. Colorado this is when he made his first escape from custody. Bundy chose to represent himself in the trial so he was excused from wearing handcuffs or leg. Shackles during a recess. Bundy was able to jump out a window and get away so question number twelve. What was Bundy's excuse to get near an open window? He asked to use the Courthouse Library. Be He asked to make a phone call. See he asked to use the restroom. Jared be he asked to make a phone call. That is incorrect rob. Hey he asked to use the courthouse. Library is the correct answer. Bundy jumped out a window in courthouses law library on the second floor where he went to quote research his case. Bundy injured his right ankle on the landing after hiding in the mountainous areas around Aspen for a few days. Sleep-deprived and injured. Bundy got caught after being spotted recklessly driving a stolen car. That makes the score. Jared six rob five in December nineteen seventy seven. Bundy escaped custody for a second time over a six month period. He managed to get a hold of a hacksaw. Blade cut through the ceiling of his jail. Cell and wriggle into a crawlspace but in order to fit into that space he had to lose a lot of weight question number thirteen according to his old defense attorney. About how much weight did Bundy lose? Ten pounds be twenty five pounds. See Fifty pounds. Jared be twenty five pounds. The correct answer is B. Twenty five pounds. According to his former attorney some reports say it could have been as high as thirty five pounds. But either way Bundy starved himself to fit into the space. He then crawled his way. To the chief. Jailer's apartment broken changed into street clothes and simply walked out to his freedom. That makes score. Seven to five in favor of jared and that sound means it's time for the killer question as a reminder. This is not multiple choice. You either know the answer or you don't and this question is worth three points so Boston if you know the answer after escaping for the second time. Bundy was on the run. He made his way to Denver where he hopped a flight to Chicago. He took a train to Ann Arbor Michigan and drove a stolen car to Atlanta from there. He boarded a bus to Florida so question number fourteen. The killer question worth three points. What Florida City did Ted Bundy travel to in January Nineteen Seventy Five Rob Tallahassee Tallahassee? Florida is the correct answer. Bundy chose Tallahassee as his destination on a whim more or less he wanted to be near water and had traveled to Florida once before in nineteen sixty eight for the Republican National Convention. By getting the killer question rob has taken the lead. Eight two seven now a nationwide. Manhunt began for Bundy who continued to feed his hunger for murder. While on the run in the early morning hours of January fifteenth nineteen seventy-eight. He broke into a sorority house at Florida. State University brutally killing two female students and left two others with serious injuries. Question Number Fifteen. At which Sorority House did Bundy? Carry Out these attacks. A kappa sigma be they apply. See Chi Omega. Jared be data that is incorrect. Rob See Chi Omega. See Cayo Mega is the right answer. That makes the score. Rob Nine jared seven. According to an rules book the stranger beside me Bundy carried out the attacks on all four women in under fifteen minutes but he didn't stop there the same night as Ko Mega Bundy carried out a similar attack at an apartment building near the Sorority House. Luckily FSU Students Cheryl. Thomas survived that attack. Then on February Ninth Bundy killed for the last time when he took the life of twelve year. Old Kimberly Diane Leach. The FBI finally added Bundy to. It's ten most wanted fugitives list. Question Number Sixteen on what date was Ted. Bundy placed on the FBI's most wanted list a February tenth. Nineteen seventy eight. B February Fifteenth Nineteen Seventy Eight C February twentieth. Nineteen seventy-eight jared a February tenth nineteen seventy eight February tenth nineteen. Seventy eight is the correct answer the very next day after he had killed young Kimberly Leach. At the time. Bundy was wanted for murder in six states. Shockingly it only took three days after being added to the FBI list. That bundy was back in custody. Question number seventeen to end this round. How was Bundy captured for the final time a driving a stolen Volkswagen beetle be running from the scene of an attack see? He turned himself in. Jared a driving a stolen. Vw Beetle. The correct answer is a. He was driving a stolen. Beat up you beetle. Around one thirty am on February fifteenth. An officer pulled him over after running the license plates and discovered the car was stolen at first. Bundy resisted arrest fighting off the officer but he was finally taken into custody for the final question of round. Two has left us with a tie. Nine to nine which means we're throwing in one more question to determine who moves on to round three and who will be saying Goodbye Ted. Bundy's life story typically involves many mentions of Elizabeth Club for but while in Prison Bundy married and a child with another woman. Rob And jared your tiebreaker question. What is the name of Ted Bundy's wife and mother of his child a Carolina Ford Be Caroline Boom Rob? Be Carolyn Boon. The correct answer is B. Carol and Boone Bundy famously proposed boone in nineteen eighty during one of his trials while questioning her about their relationship. The end with that question. We've come to the end around two with a tiebreaker question. That makes the score. Rob Ten jared nine on. Fortunately that means we have to say goodbye to jared. You've got so much knowledge to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me now. We're GONNA take a short break and come back with the last three questions of the show with Bundy back in prison. The killer finally talks before his ultimate punishment is carried out. How much does rob know about? Bundy's last days and will it be enough to win the coveted par cast golden headphones. Find out in round three. Welcome back to killer knowledge. I'm Corduroy. We've been quizzing Robin Jared about the sly and dangerous serial killer Ted Bundy now. Jared was eliminated from the game after scoring nine points. In the first two rounds Rob score ten so only he will be answering the questions in round three for chance to win some amazing prizes. Now this time points. Don't matter glut right answers. Do here are the rules. There are three multiple choice questions each with two answer options a or B. So you'll have a fifty fifty shot. Each correct answer is worth an amazing prize. Get One answer right. And you'll get spotify premium account free for one year if you get two questions right you in a role in an episode of the podcast original solve murders hosted by me. And if you get all three questions right in this round you win. The coveted par cast golden headphones and the chance to come back for one of our best of shows to compete against other killer. Knowledge Champions Rob. Are you ready ready? Okay here we go with around three while in prison. Waiting for his appeals in court bundy began talking to FBI. Special Agent William Hague Meyer of the Behavioral Analysis Unit. He told Haig Meyer. That murder was not just a crime of lust or violence to him question number eighteen. What did Bundy say? Murder was about a possession. Be Obsession be obsession. That is incorrect. Bundy said that murder became about a possession. He claimed that after he killed someone they were forever. One and the place where he left the bodies and often revisited were sacred ground. Unfortunately robbed that means you will not be winning the podcast. Golden headphones. But you can still win a year free of spotify premium and roll on the podcast original unsolved murders with all of Bundy's known victims being young white women. It's no surprise his girlfriend. Elizabeth Clever would wonder how she wasn't one of them. She got her answer during late night. Phone call with Bundy while he was in prison according to her book. The Phantom Prince my life with Ted Bundy Bundy admitted that he once had the impulse to kill her question number. Nineteen how did Bundy's say he tried to kill? Elizabeth CLAP FOR A. He set her apartment on fire while she slept be. He closed the chimney so she choke on smoke from the fireplace. A he said her apartment on fire while she slept. I'm afraid that is incorrect. The correct answer is B. He closed chimney so she'd choke on smoke. He told Club for he had also put a towel in the door crack so the smoke would stay in the apartment while you haven't won. The park has golden headphones or the role and unsolved murders. But you can still win. Spotify premium free for a year after several appeals stays of executions and changes of dates. Ted Bundy was scheduled to be put to death on January. Twenty Fourth Nineteen eighty-nine question number. Twenty the last question of this episode. What did Ted Bundy request as his final meal? A steak and eggs be nothing. Be Nothing the correct answer is be. Nothing thing was served steak and eggs but he did not request it. Bundy declined a special meal. So given the traditional last meal steak cooked medium rare eggs over easy hashbrowns toast with butter and jelly milk and juice. Ted Bundy then died in the electric chair at Florida. State prison. His body was cremated and his ashes scattered at an undisclosed location in the state of Washington. Congratulations rob you. Want a year of spotify premium free. Thank you and thank both you and jared for being here now. There have been many theories about what was wrong. With Ted Bundy. The underwent many psychiatric examinations with medical professionals and behavioral specialists. Bipolar disorder dissociated is entity disorder. Sociopath psychopath have all been thrown out there to describe him but whatever. The true dysfunction was within Bundy. One thing was missing guilt. Bundy once said guilt is in his words a mechanism. We use to control people. It's an illusion. It's a kind of social control mechanism and it's very unhealthy. It does terrible things to the body undecided. I don't feel guilty for anything. I feel. Sorry for people who feel guilt to everyone listening. Thank you for playing killer. Knowledge with US L. Let us know what you thought about. Today's episode by leaving a review wherever you're listening and by reaching out on facebook and Instagram. At podcast in twitter at PODCAST NETWORK. You can also listen to more episodes of killer. Knowledge and other power cast originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. Killer knowledge was created by Max Cutler and is a podcast studios original it is executive produced by Max Cutler produced by Kristen Osservato key to MIRA and Jonathan ratliff sound designed by Paul. Leave Iskin Killer Knowledge Stars Carter Roy. Come back next week to hear who will become the next. True crime extract.

Ted Bundy Bundy Ted Bundy Robin Jared Bundy C. Bundy murder Rob Ten Ted Rob spotify Carter Roy Seattle Salt Lake City Theodore Shah Wilson Rob United States Jared Leslie kidnapping facebook twitter