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BCBC - Podcast - S3EP009 - Dr, Raj Purohit - Gender Affirmation Surgery
Welcome to the first podcast of October 2018. This is our month on topics around the theme of Gender Identity, the Gender Spectrum, and Gender Transitions. We have a really packed month - with 5 amazing Monday Mumblings, 5 podcasts, 5 blogs, and 4 nuggets. Make sure you stay tuned in to all of our episodes! In This Episode: Today Monkey and the Professor got to chat with Dr. Raj Purohit. Dr. Raj was born in Rajasthan, India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan) but grew up in the midwest - he is a Michigander at heart. He left Michigan to study history and political theory in college - at Williams. He believes that background certainly informs many of his decisions and things he is very passionate about - he grew up in a family of artists and doctors. In medical school, he took a year off to apprentice with a painter in Rajasthan. He attributes his apprenticeship and painting to have a significant impact on how he views surgery. He came back to the US, finished his medical training at Columbia, went on to UCSF for his internship in surgery and residency in urology. He did a Fellowship in pelvic reconstructive surgery - this is where he developed an interest in cis gendered patients originally - in reconstructing the urethra from trauma and complications, and ultimately shifted his focus to developing the Gender Affirmation Surgery program at Mount Sinai a year ago. Dr. Raj made the decision to go into medicine because of his strong family background in medicine, where many of his family members are also doctors. His wife and sister-in-law are both doctors as well. You could consider medicine to be a family business. Even with that, something sparked within him when he entered the operating room for the first time - it was a sense of belonging and home and passion. He sees the surgical suite as a controlled environment, whereas a surgeon, he is an artist - painting the body and bringing out the beauty from within the canvas. Surgery is where he finds his balance in both art and medicine. We started off with a very high-level overview of what is involved in Gender Reassignment. To begin with, the preferred term is Gender Affirmation - because what is really happening is helping the person become externally what they are already internally - it merely affirms their gender identity. At no point are they really assigning a gender to the patient - that patient is already the gender they are on the path to appearing as. We really love that terminology and phrasing. As Dr. Raj states - the doctors are not assigning or giving the patient a new gender - they are only uncovering what is already there, the gender the person already feels exists. (https://amzn.to/2xOODmq) So - Gender Affirmation Surgery typically involves some level of reconstruction on the body so that the body will fit the gender that the person already identifies as. Patients have already gone through hormonal therapy and have had changes in their bodies to reflect the correct gender profile. These surgeries are broadly split into two groupings - Top Surgery and Bottom Surgery (https://www.plasticsurgery.org/reconstructive-procedures/gender-confirmation-surgeries). For transwomen (assigned male at birth, but identify as female) the surgery may entail: facial feminization to transform the masculine features of the face to a more feminine appearance (https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/facial-feminization-surgery) vocal chord surgery (https://health.howstuffworks.com/medicine/surgeries-procedures/transgender-voice-surgery.htm) breast augmentation to enhance the size and shape of the breasts to create a more feminine appearance to the chest Creation of a vagina through a surgery called vaginoplasty https://www.plasticsurgery.org/cosmetic-procedures/vaginal-rejuvenation/vaginoplasty This typically includes removal of the testes as well For transmen (assigned female at birth but identify as a male) the surgery may entail: (https://www.ftmsurgery.net/) Breast Reduction/Removal includes bilateral mastectomy (removal of the breasts) and male chest contouring Hysterectomy removes the uterus, and may also include the removal of the cervix as well as the ovaries and Fallopian Tubes Creation of a Phallus and/or Testicles Through the implantation of a penile and/or testicular prosthesis to provide the ability to have erections. Dr. Raj stressed that this is really a continuum of options - not every trans individual will have all of these surgeries or go through hormones or have implants - it is a very individual decision as to what a person wants to do and go through. They may do one or two of these options, none of them or all of them. As a surgeon, he believes his job is the help the patient achieve a body that they are comfortable with, and who they want to be. Pre-Surgical Requirements: We spoke with Dr. Raj on counseling for gender affirmation procedures - what is involved, what is required. Keep in mind that different locations (states, countries) have different requirements on counseling and other things that must be completed prior to gender affirmation surgery can occur. All patients do require a psychiatric evaluation before being approved to move forward with surgery - this is very much the case when it comes to some of the more involved surgeries like phalloplasty and vaginoplasty. Most centers require that patients live in that gender identity for at least a year and that they are additionally on hormone therapy for at least one year prior to surgery. The delays before surgery are not really about ensuring people do not change their minds. Really, by living in the gender identity they relate to, it provides them with experience with the varied receptions within society, their jobs, etc. That may impact the medical care that is then available to them post-surgery. It is important that access to proper medical attention post surgery is readily available for the patient’s well being in the long term. Unfortunately many during this year of living in their gender find themselves ostracized, or being terminated for their place of employment - both scenarios having significant impacts on their lives overall. Hormone Therapy: The therapy treatments with transmen and transwomen are obviously different. The aim of hormone therapy is to make transgender people feel more at ease within their bodies, both physically and psychologically. Hormone therapy is usually the first treatment that trans people want to have and, for some, it may be the only treatment they need. Some people find that they get sufficient relief from taking hormones so that they do not need to change their gender role or have surgery. Transmen (FTM) For trans men (FTM) who have been born into "typically female bodies" (i.e., bodies that have functional ovaries), as well as trans men who were born into intersex bodies, the goal of testosterone therapy is to induce and maintain the presence of masculine secondary sex characteristics. Addition of testosterone is the therapy - this is a very dominant hormone making it an easier treatment for transmen. There are many changes that occur almost immediately with the administration of testosterone. In FTM testosterone therapy, testosterone (often called "T" for short) can be administered into the body in a number of ways. The most common method is intramuscular injection with a syringe. Other delivery methods include transdermal application through gel, cream, or patch applied to the skin; orally by swallowing tablets (this method is uncommon as it has been shown to have negative effects on the liver); sublingually/buccally by dissolving a tablet under the tongue or against the gums; or by a pellet inserted under the skin. The T-delivery method used will depend on the type of medication available in the country of treatment, the health risks/benefits for the patient, personal preference, and cost. Testosterone is not stored by the body for future use, so in order to maintain healthy levels, it must be administered in timed intervals and in appropriate dosages. Injectable and subcutaneous T pellets remain active in the body the longest. Injectable T is typically administered between once a week to once every three weeks, and subcutaneous T pellets are replaced every 3-4 months. Transdermal T (patch, gel, or cream) is typically applied to the skin in smaller daily doses; oral and sublingual/buccal T are also typically taken daily. Transwomen (MTF): Transwomen have a more complicated approach to hormone therapy. It tends to be a combination of adding feminine hormones while simultaneously blocking male hormones. The goal of feminizing hormone therapy is the development of female secondary sex characteristics and suppression/minimization of male secondary sex characteristics. Estrogen is not a very dominant hormone - treatment with estrogen is combined with a testosterone blocker like spironolactone (this blocks the production of testosterone at a cellular level). There are many formulations of both estrogen and the testosterone blockers that can be provided to the person going through therapy - pills, injections, etc. With the combination treatment, increased fat levels in the body can be seen, reduced testes sizes and the growth of breasts, among many other physical changes. The transformation of the physical bodies with hormone therapy can start within a few weeks to months but will continue over time. The effects in a couple months may not give a complete indication of where things will continue to progress. The Challenges of Surgery for Transmen: Transmen do not typically go forward with the bottom surgeries - phalloplasty - at the time of this recording - the general opinion is that those surgeries are not very optimal. Constructing a new penis is a very difficult challenge - and functional penis creation is difficult and dangerous. The idea would be a penis that can experience erections, that can be urinated through (so peeing standing up is possible), and that can provide pleasurable sensations through touch. Broadly speaking there are two ways that a penis can be constructed. The first is clitoral enlargement (3 to 8 times) that occurs from the taking of testosterone. A new penis can be created from the enlarged clitoris. Additional skin flaps can be used to create a new urinary tube. This provides sensation and urination. The downside is that erections are not possible because the anatomy involved in erections cannot be created within this structure. Obviously, there is a small amount of fullness through stimulation but it is not really an erection. The second downside is that the clitoris can only enlarge so much - a couple inches at most, so you are left with a fairly small penis - and many are not satisfied with that size. The significant benefit is that the surgery is easy and has a high rate of success with low risk of complications. The second methodology for bottom surgery is the phalloplasty. This is where some tissues from another part of the body is used to create a brand new penis. You can create a tube within a tube - the first time is a penis, the second is the urethra. You can implant as well a penile prosthesis to enable an erection. You can have a penis with quite a good size. The downside is that sensation is very limited and not the same as the clitoris. The additional downside is a very high complication rate - scar tissue, infection, etc. At this point, the best way to avoid these is not figured out. Much debate and research is still ongoing. Dr. Raj believes a future possibility might be penile transplants. A number of transwomen are removing their penis - that might be one source for the transmen. That may provide a penis with all three criteria. There is, however, a very long way to go to get the immunology, sensation, and functions correctly. There is precedent in penile transplants - a Massachusetts General trauma patient had their pelvis blown off. The surgery was successful there so that leads to possibilities in the future for transmen. Surgery for Transwomen: Vaginoplasty is a far more common procedure than phalloplasty. The complication rates are significantly lower than other surgeries - it is truly a technique that appears to have been optimized for success. These surgeries come in a few different flavors - the most common is the penile inversion surgery. The penis is inverted back into the cavity and the outer skin becomes the vagina inner walls. Sometimes skin grafts are added from the scrotum to deepen the cavity. The benefit here is that you have sensation. The former head of the penis becomes tailored into the clitoris. It is a functional and sensational surgery - providing transwomen with the benefits they would seek from a bottom surgery. The vagina must then be dilated for the rest of their life to avoid a long-term complication of scarring down but essentially this is a fairly optimal procedure. Additionally cosmetically this surgery looks amazing. What Dr. Raj finds most fascinating is that each center who performed these bottom surgeries historically had developed their own techniques but it is only in the last few years that there has been a sharing of the information so that the group knowledge can work together for better ways to treat patients, with fewer complications and more successes. It is also moving the industry towards a standardization in procedures that include what works. There is a fairly good overview with FAQs on this subject that you can download http://www.teni.ie/attachments/9ea50d6e-1148-4c26-be0d-9def980047db.PDF The Cost of Transition: This is a question that comes up all the time. Unfortunately, there is no simple answer and it will often depend on insurance coverage and such. Many insurances will not cover all or any of the procedures, hormones, etc. Many will. In general terms, Dr. Raj suggested most insurances will cover hormones. Blue states tend to cover some or all of the surgeries - whereas many red states do not cover these at all. For patients that do not have insurance, cannot get Medicaid, or some from states where the insurance will not cover the procedures the surgical costs can range anywhere from $20,000 - $50,000 dollars. The cumulative costs of hormones can be expensive over the course of a lifetime but are not crazy on a monthly basis. The great thing about today’s world versus a few years ago is there is more and more of a push to include and cover these surgeries than ever before. Dr. Raj does not believe gender affirmation surgery as a choice - he believes it is a necessity to someone’s health and well being. This follows the way the medical and insurance industries are moving - these surgeries are no longer considered simply to be a vanity. Being in the wrong body has significant physical effects on health and well being. Doing the surgery results in a reduction of mental health issues that can also then lead to less physical health issues. “This is something as doctors we can fix, so why should we not fix it?” The Impact of Age on Transition: Currently, in society, there are seeing more children (pre-pubescent) and young teens moving towards gender transition. This is often done through postponing puberty through the use of drugs to suppress hormones. This is a very controversial topic - both in society and within the medical community. There is not great data on this topic and on the long-term effects of postponing puberty. What is known - many children under the age of 12 (puberty) may identify as a gender that they were not assigned to at birth. The majority of those kids will identify as the gender they were born with later in life. There is no real debate for these kids and doing hormone therapy - they are unlikely to continue on with the transition as they get older. The real debate is what to do about those kids who are 12 years and entering adolescence and entering puberty. There are studies that have shown that once puberty is hit and after, the gender is fairly fixed and is unlikely to change as they get older. That means that they are not likely to change their gender identity back to what it was assigned at birth - it is established in their identity. This is where the question comes into play - should puberty be stopped and/or should hormone therapy be initiated so that those secondary sex characteristics of the assigned birth gender do not develop. Questions around early surgery are also being debated. A lack of data makes outcomes uncertain - would they provide better outcomes with earlier surgeries or would there be additional challenges because of coming growth. For risks and things to be aware of for children, Dr. Raj suggested that parents should speak to an endocrinologist. This is their area of expertise and they can advise if there are and are not things to keep in mind. Resources for Parents: There are a lot of websites - but the best in Dr. Raj’s mind is the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (https://www.wpath.org/). This site is used by medical professions as well and contains accurate well-vetted information. Many other sites out there may be full of misinformation. It includes standards of care, risks, questions, and so much more. Other resources include Lambda Legal (https://www.lambdalegal.org/). This organization is geared toward LGBT issues and has a lot of amazing references present for parents. Transitions in Older Generations: The older generations - considered geriatric, are making a lot more of a splash in transitions. There are more articles out in the world about people in their 70’s, 80’s and 90’s going through gender affirmations and transitions. Dr. Raj notes he is seeing an uptake of people across all age ranges, but he is highly impressed by the older people who come in. They have lived with the social ostracization through their years. Now as the world is becoming more supportive, they seem to be able to feel safe in moving forward. The courage the older generations have lived with their entire lives, to now come forward with the transition is a true inspiration to Dr. Raj. Later transitions have different risks than those done at a younger age. One the one hand there are social risks for gender transitions - groups of friends and peers may not support the transition and it may result in a loss of companions and loved ones in their social network. This can result in feelings of loneliness and feelings of isolation. There are also risks of hormonal therapy in older transmen versus younger men. Testosterone can increase blood count and the risk of high blood pressure and sleep apnea and cholesterol. This means these are things that need to be monitored more deeply. There are also concerns of prostate cancer for transwomen who are then put onto hormones. It is unknown if there need to be more screening, testing, and treatment around the prostate. Surgeries for gender affirmation are all serious lengthy surgeries with risks. Older patients may not be great candidates depending on their health - but as always, Dr. Raj does what he can to help his patients, young and old, do as much as they can to become the physical body they identify with. The patients often have to assess the risks for themselves as well. Long-Term Health Risks that May Result from Gender Affirmation Surgery: Unfortunately, there is not a lot of really good data on the long-term risks associated with gender transitions. A few things that are known however are the risks associated with the hormone therapy. Patients taking testosterone to run higher risks of increased blood count, high blood pressure, sleep apnea, and high cholesterol. They also tend to gain weight and may develop acne. For estrogen, there is a higher risk of gallstones, clots, cholesterol issues, cardiac disease, and high blood pressure. The things that are debated but there is no immediate proof is the increase in breast cancer for those on estrogen and progesterone. There is no data, yet, that testosterone can increase the risks of uterine and breast and ovarian cancer in transmen. Ultimately all these questions require more research and research dollars to look into. Pregnancy and Hormone Therapy: Following some of the conversations we had this month, we were curious as to known complications from stopping hormone therapy as a transman to get pregnant. Dr. Raj suggested a few things to consider - normalizing hormones to that of a gender female before getting pregnant and possible concerns for the baby from the additional testosterone in the system. These are also situations that do not have a lot of real research to understand what the possibilities are. Resources at Mount Sinai: Mount Sinai has one of the best online resources available to people. They have spent time and commitment in developing one of the best transition centers in the world. They have created a multidisciplinary team to ensure that they can work strongly in a coordinated care method on the patients’ behalf. They have also developed two Fellowship programs within the gender affirmation field. In Dr. Raj’s opinion, Mount Sinai is moving the field forward through training and procedure development. The research there is also pulling data together for long-term understanding and improvement. Parting Words: Dr. Raj likes to think about what appeals to him about the transgender community and the work he does. Some of the patients he has come from very supportive environments and can make the transitions easily. However too many others face ostracization, employment loss and os much more He inquires of each of our listeners - what are you willing to give up absolutely everything so that you can be true to yourself? Dr. Raj joins our barnyard today - he identifies as a pig in our barnyard. He does not mind to get dirty and to spent time flopping around in the mud. Pigs are also very intelligent animals and he believes that also indicates a part of his personality. About Our Guest: Dr. Rajveer Purohit is the Director of Voiding Dysfunction and Reconstructive Urology and Associate Professor of Urology at The Mount Sinai Hospital. He has performed over 400 complex reconstructive surgical procedures including urethroplasty for urethral strictures with grafts and flaps, surgery for complications of radiation therapy, treatment of mesh complications and complications of pelvic surgery such as incontinence and maintains a particular interest in transgender surgery. In addition, Dr. Purohit has continued to maintain an interest in general urology including surveillance for cancer, vasectomy, urinary problems, sexual dysfunction, and work-up for hematuria and elevated PSA. Dr. Purohit graduated Magna Cum Laude from Williams College and earned his medical degree (MD) and Masters in Public Health (MPH) from Columbia University before completing his surgical internship and urology residency at the University of California in San Francisco. While there he trained with one of the pioneers of male urethral reconstruction and then completed a fellowship with Dr. Jerry Blaivas in pelvic reconstruction and voiding dysfunction and was on the clinical faculty at New York Presbyterian for over 10 years before joining Mount Sinai. He has been listed in New York Magazine’s Best Doctors in New York City. He has been awarded the Pfizer Scholars in Urology, AUA/Praecis Gerald P. Murphy Scholar, Society of Medicine and Reproductive Urology Travel Scholar award, a California Urology Foundation Grant and an Arnold P. Gold Fellowship and multiple Patient Choice and Compassionate Doctor awards. Finding Dr. Raj! Mount Sinai Department of Urology: https://www.mountsinai.org/profiles/rajveer-s-purohit Twitter: @DrUroRecon Additional Resources and Links: www.wpath.com www.Lambdaleagle.com https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/06/26/starbucks-to-pay-for-all-transgender-staffs-surgeries/ https://nypost.com/2017/03/29/transgender-wwii-veteran-comes-out-as-a-woman-at-90/ https://health.usnews.com/health-care/patient-advice/articles/2018-05-25/what-is-gender-affirming-surgery https://www.plasticsurgery.org/reconstructive-procedures/gender-confirmation-surgeries https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWdtByPm9a4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGkiC3Y8kk0 https://health.howstuffworks.com/medicine/surgeries-procedures/transgender-voice-surgery.htm https://www.webmd.com/women/guide/vaginoplasty-and-labiaplasty-procedures#1 https://www.ftmsurgery.net/ http://www.teni.ie/attachments/9ea50d6e-1148-4c26-be0d-9def980047db.PDF http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=guidelines-feminizing-therapy https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/a52196/what-its-like-to-transition-transgender-man/ https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/bottom-surgery
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Aired 5 months ago 23:57
Takes planed is supported by quip electric toothbrushes. You can get brush heads delivered to your door every three months for just five dollars. So you never really have to think of them. And right now, if you go to get quip dot com slash explained, you'll get your first refill pack for free with your quip, electric toothbrush. In twenty twelve. Michael Wong was a senior at James Logan, high school. One of these pretty competitive high schools in California's bay area, and he had really tried to position himself to check off all the boxes that colleges look at. You know, he had really high rates. I think something like a four, six. He'd aced all standardized tests, but he'd also done a lot of community were organizing sort of clubs and being part of the debate team, and he felt pretty confident that he would get into at least one of the four schools that he applied to. I think he dreamed of going to Harvard Yale Stanford and Princeton. Unfortunately, he didn't get into any schools. He started looking around and he realized that other people it is high school had gotten in some the schools, and he started to think about what made their cases stronger than his and one thing. He realized that none of these other people were Asian. It's sort of spoke to this informal belief among Michael on some of his friends that to be Asian American to be applying to these elite schools. You had to be extra good. So we started looking into things he could do to figure out whether this was true. He began to ask questions and these questions really captured the imagination not just of some anti -firmative activists who were working at the sort of DC policy level, but also among a lot of Asian Americans, particularly middle class, newer immigrants living in California. And these two constituencies are now at the forefront of this Harvard lawsuit that is currently underway, which could potentially end from of action as we've known it for the past decade. You know when the average person's upset, they call a friend. They have a good cry. Maybe they take it out on someone else. The point is they move on Michael Wong, isn't your average person. He took all that emotion and turn it into something much, much bigger. Michael Wong's emotion walked into a courtroom in Boston on Monday that case is contending that Harvard is systematically discriminating against students based on race. Eleo Wong wrote about the case for the Atlantic it homes in on Asian Americans and tries to twist the narrative by saying, ironically, this policy that was designed to elevate the outcomes of disadvantaged minorities is actually disadvantage ING a minority that it was designed to serve. And the funny thing about it is this Michael Wong isn't even the plaintiff. He's not in involved. In this case, the plaintiff, in this case about Asian American college. Admissions is actually an organization run by an older white guy. The suit is being brought by an organization called students for fair admissions. And the key person behind the suit is a man named at bloom. We will finally sort of a cheap what you know the great founders and visionaries of the civil rights movement taught us and that is your race in your ethnicity. Really shouldn't count for anything, whether it's in college admissions or jobs. He's a white man. He is a legal strategist. He's not the actual Turney, but he's basically the mastermind behind this lawsuit, but also a bunch of other affirmative action suits and even voting rights suits in the country. Most famously, I guess, Fischer versus university of Texas, the last affirmative action case to go to the supreme court Abigail. Fisher brought the case in two thousand eight. She sued UT Austin after the school rejected her, she claims in favor of minority applicants with lower grades and test scores. So how'd at bloom transition from saying, white people are being disadvantaged by affirmative action policies saying, Asian Americans have been disadvantaged by affirmative action policies was that sort of a marriage of convenience and natural progression. What a lot of people who I've spoken with have consensus that he was motivated by these larger concerns about affirmative action. And Asian Americans kind of emerged as the ideal political ponds in this effort. Asian plaintiffs and finding plaintiffs to challenge the Ivy league admissions since Harvard in particular, is that an easy thing to do with previous cases? It was basically that whites, no longer have the privilege they once had. And so it's kind of a harder argument to make. But when you're using Asian-Americans, it becomes a little bit easier to sympathize with the claims. And the lawsuit is saying that Asian Americans as a whole are being disadvantaged. But really when you look at who has been the most vocal around the issue, it is almost exclusively Chinese-American that really is a very distinct sector of that population. So what's the argument at bloom and this group the SF is making right now. How do they think Harvard is discriminating against Asian American sounds like East Asian Americans in particular, I, I'll kind of walk you through the way that Harvard approaches admissions, which has grown. Increasingly complex. They approach each candidate through the lens of five categories one being just the overall, but the force Pacific one's academic, extracurricular, athletic, and personal. What the plaintiffs are saying is that by and large, Asian American students have higher test scores, better grades, even more prolific, extracurricular resumes that's proven in the data that they provide. It's it's very clear. And so they're saying that it's this personal category, which is basically being leveraged to systematically discriminate against Asian Americans because that's the category that often negates the prospects of an otherwise strong candidate. But I guess at bloom as saying that none of that should even matter like we should just be letting in the best students pure meritocracy. So what's Harvard saying? And it's defense to the suit. They see diversity as including race, but definitely not being limited to that. They see diversity as pertaining to academic disciplines, geography background, in terms of income and the educational achievement of parents. And so it's really, really hard to say again, that something like race is categorically allowing them to use quotas, doesn't apply. Harvard, like a whole lot of students in based on legacy and sports. Yeah, that's as reading one analysis that found that as many as forty percent of white students at Harvard are either legacies which are the students who have relatives who are alumni or students who were recruited for flex, which is a similar category, not it's predominantly white affluent students, and that's according to analysis by Julie park, who's a professor at the university of Maryland, and by citing that data about the legacy admissions and the let it recruits harbored, sing the plaintiffs in their analysis of the student record data, omitted students who had been admitted through those particular avenues in that sort of skewed their conclusions. It seems kind of like this backwards irony. Harvard saying, we don't discriminate. Against Asian American students, but we do discriminate to make sure that you know forty percent of the white students who go to the school get in on account of athletics or because mommy and daddy in grandpappy and an uncle, Tim went to Harvard. Yes, that's basically throwing itself under a bus to avoid being thrown under an even bigger bus. I wonder, do we know how young Asian-Americans feel about this lawsuit has been like a rallying point for lots of young Asian Americans, or is this just limited to, you know, high achieving East Asian Americans who are trying to, you know, best university in the world. If you look at the polling data, seventy, three percent of Asian Americans, not including Chinese American support, affirmative action. That's according to a recent survey. But even today four in ten Chinese Americans say they support affirmative action. So this notion that this is a wide. Spread opposing force among Asian-Americans is flawed. This Massachusetts court sides with at bloom and the SF FA. What happens to Harvard's emissions process. Either way, whatever the ruling is were inevitably gonna see an appeal and work its way up to the supreme court, or at least that's what a lot of legal observers suspect will happen. If and when it does make it to the supreme court, a lot of people particularly those who can fundamentally support the values and the strategies baked into it are really nervous that this will Mark the death knell for -firmative action everywhere because even now we're left with a very limited scope by which that can take place. There's not much left to salvage. Eleo Wong reports on education at the Atlantic. We reached out to Ed Blum who runs students for fared missions. The plaintiff, in the case, he kindly declined because he's a little too close to the action on this one coming up, how affirmative action went from this big grand idea to help write historical wrongs to this tiny little thing that helps people get into the most elite universities in the world. This is today explain. Quip like you to know that you're doing it wrong. It's being brushing your teeth. It's one of the most important things we do every day. And yet most of us don't do it properly. The quick makes it a lot easier to has this built in two minute timer that pulses every thirty seconds to remind you went to switch sides, brushing inside of your mouth. They call the sides squadrons, it's very fancy, and it has these sensitive sonic vibrations that are gentle for your sensitive gums and they're also quiet. Unlike your grandfather's electric, toothbrush. You can find out more about the quip. When you go to get quick dot com slash explained right now, you'll also get your first refill pack free with your clip, electric toothbrush. Hi, I'm nor gory. I thought I understood sex trafficking in the US the criminals the victims. But when I actually met the people doing sex work, I realized I didn't know half the story. You know, I really want to try to do sex work on my own, like without somebody else forcing me to do it, and it was a really positive, empowering experience come with me on a journey across the country to meet the real people who are part of this world. I never knew nothing about him drafting an avenue that I was banned, exploded are trafficking in drugs connected. Absolutely. To be honest. I used to like talk down on it like paying someone for sex like, but now my whole mindset changed and I'm a part of it invited the end. I promise you will never look at the sex trade the same way. Again, sold in America premiers October. For ten subscribe now in Stitcher, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. Wash you. You told us about Michael Wong at the top of the show you wrote about his story and this case and affirmative action in the New Yorker. How far back exactly does affirmative action go it traces back in a government context to FDR and the new deal mother that bone collector lay with an organized, Madonna deal that worker. Oppose the Mike Nowak Broadview deal legislation become the leather deciding Ingles. People who were parts of unions there were reprisals against them, right? So companies that had done so were told to act -firmative to restore people even if they were part labor unions, it really begins to mean what we today see to me in the nineteen sixties president Kennedy issued an executive order. We hope in the next few days to have an executive order forthcoming which will strengthen the employment opportunities both in and out of the government for all Americans. He urged government institutions, government contractors to act affirmatively in promoting policies of non-discrimination. The initial impetus for -firmative action was really to make up for the sins of the past. It was very clear in saying for hundreds of years, entire classes of individuals in the United States didn't start at the same starting line is everyone else. And what can we do about that. What happens in the seventies is that when you start to see affirmative action being challenged or is everyone on board, you know, a lot of people are on board with her vaction it was. It had bipartisan support, obviously, Kennedy and Johnson weren't very specific about what affirmative action was. So the courts began to kind of figure out which interpretation of action were actually constitutional in which we're not the landmark case was the Bachi decision in nineteen seventy eight. I case today's calendar is number seventy six eighty seven regents of the university of California against Buckey. White applicant to the UC Davis medical school thought that he would have gotten into the school had he not been white at the time, the medical school set aside something like sixteen seats for minorities. He had been told informally that he probably could have gotten in had those quotas not been in place. The supreme court heard his case. They ruled in his favor and that he was allowed to go to medical school in sofa as a California Supreme could hell that Blackie much admitted to the Davis medical school. We have. They ruled against the admissions policy at the school in sofa as a California could prohibited Davis from considering race as a factor in admissions. We were this so quotas were deemed illegal. But something really interesting happened in that case. Four of the justices were against affirmative action. Four of them were for affirmative action, but as a means of redressing sort of prior historical injustice, the deciding vote came down to Justice Lewis Powell, and he rejected the premise of kind of historical, reparation discrimination by society at live with no determined effects is not sufficient to justify petition racial classification. In my view, the only state interests that fairly may be viewed as compelling on this record is an interest of university in a diverse student body. He'd really created the notion of diversity that we today us not just in affirmative action, but sort of in in everyday parlance. What did the public think about affirmative action? There are certainly people who thought affirmative action wasn't radical enough from progressive point of view in the seventies. There were even people who thought affirmative action wasn't worth thinking about because there is so much more that the government could do. There's so much more that could be asked of institutions. The idea of a quota system seemed quite token conservative. There's this really fascinating blaxploitation film called the spook who sat by the door. How do we retrieve lost? Nick, black, vote Gill. Why don't we accuse the CIA the racially discriminatory hiring policy? They have no negroes except on a menial level, you know? So they decide to just promote a black clerical worker to become an agent. With us did more than five years and you've done well your credit to your race. Thank you and the experience sorta so radicalized him because he'd never had access to TI training and sort of what the interior halls power were like miss. Why. And he ends up sort of going back and training folks and fomenting this sort of revolution against the white establishment. Uprising by black guerillas in cities across the nation. The president has declared a state of national emergency. It's sort of this trope for how we talk about questions of merit and qualification today. So when does all this change? When does affirmative action become so divisive? I think one of the big inflection points in the affirmative action debate was in the early to mid nineties in California. In nineteen ninety six. There was a referendum on ballot that gave Californians the chance to vote affirmative action out. And that was proposition. Two, nine. He's a huge turning point in sort of affirmative action in the popular imagination. Proposition two. Oh, nine, an all race and gender considerations in public education government contracts and hiring the what happened with proposition. Proposition, two, oh, nine, outlawed, affirmative action in sort of government contracting. Also higher education. One of the really notable aspects of prop tunein was that it was associated with a black businessmen and UC region a ward Connerly. I supported a major that brought the principle of equality to the state of California, and that ended the discrimination against Chinese kids and Vietnamese kids who were excelling in and their studies over blacks and Latinos and native. Ericans Connolly's presence, really complicated how people understood affirmative action. There's always been people of color who oppose affirmative action for variety of reasons. Very rarely did people get the chance to serve center them in a public debate. It really exploded how people traditionally understood affirmative action. Within a couple years, the population of black and Latino students in the UC system really plummeted and it really took them some time to recover and figure out ways to bring that kind of diversity back to the UC system. Did prop two nine catch on. Yeah. So within a few years, quite a few other states did indeed outlaw for an evacuation voters approved an amendment that wipes out affirmative action in a been decision today. The supreme court allowed the state of Michigan to ban affirmative action at colleges. How did something that was so broad, an ambitious though, maybe undefined end up just being essentially at this point about college missions into some of the most elite universities in the country. You know, I think a lot of it has to do with the Balki decision even though Balki is seen as a victory for action because it ended up up holding the principle. It really destroyed an entire rationale for it. Right? So the best rationale from -firmative action continues to be in my mind as a men's for the past. And yet that's an argument that you're no longer allowed to make. You can't constitutionally advance that kind of argument. Instead, we have this difficult to define notion of diversity, and we've seen that idea of diversity gets chipped away at over the past thirty years, and I think that's why it ends up in something as seemingly small as college admissions. Plus shoe is a staff writer at the New Yorker. I'm Sean rostrum. This today explained. Electric toothbrushes can cost a lot of money, but not the quit. The quip cost like about as much as seeing stars born on AmEx for just twenty five dollars. You can start your quick experience. A get quip dot com. Slash explained lost will get your first refill pack free because you know, electric toothbrushes need refills. Hello, this is Shaun. Hi, Sean. Hi Sean. How's it going. I sean. It's been a log. Who's Sean? I l. Hi, Sean used to hide yourself. I did. That's cool, right? That's, that's, that's. That's a totally horrible thing. That's admirable. Yeah. Oh, man. We've been at it for today. Sorry, we start early.
Aired 2 weeks ago 127:44
129 - Ted "The Unabomber" Kaczynski
Ted Kaczynski the Unabomber before this week when I heard that name that nickname the word manifesto popped off my head picks that infamous police sketches some creepy ass. Moustachioed Oona hoodie where some aviator sunglasses Imogen a bearded wild eyed maniac. Living alone in a remote Montana cabin making an mailing bombs. And now is about all in, you know, a whole bunch more. Now, I know the full story of the man who started off a so so much potential a literal genius with an I q of one sixty seven who studied at Harvard. Started study when he was only sixteen years old a guy who had a doctorate mathematics by the age of twenty five. His doctoral thesis written at the university of Michigan is considered a mathematical work of art, Ted could have lived such a good life. Who's young handsome, professor at the age twenty five had a good childhood support, a family, no abuse, lots of opportunity, he became the youngest assistant professor of mathematics in the history of the university of California Berkeley, where he taught undergraduate course. In geometry and calculus teaching at Berkeley in nineteen sixty seven. He had a good job at a young age in the beating heart of the counterculture movement during the summer of love he could've lived so many people's ultimate fantasy that was maybe the best year in place to be single and under thirty in all of human history, and he could've cared less. Right. Just did not care at all two years later, this increasingly antisocial loaner walked away from academe Lia forever. After two years. Another two years he walked away from civilization in general and move down to the Montana wilderness. And then he got real real weird decided he didn't like how reliant society was becoming on technology and industry felt like everyone needed to get back to basics thought it was time to live simply off the land again. And he started mailing bombs to kick off a revolution. That was supposed to change the world. Well, he didn't change the world. But he did create a fascinating story for today's. There's a fine. In line between genius and insanity. Bearded maniac in the woods edition of time. Suck. Harry, Monday time suckers. They store space lizards again for support in the show via patriot ever coming out to the Salt Lake City. Live ant hill kids suck a little over week ago. God that was fun. You some of your paycheck money recently to buy new equipment for the suck dungeon to improve the sound quality of the YouTube suck videos now the audio on YouTube also coming from the studio, Mike not from the shotgun. Mike on the camera. Hail nimrod. Dan comes a master sucker. The suck master suck critise. You're listening to time suck. Welcome to the cult of the curious hail Nimrod hilas. Athena, inhaling her a lot more lately instead of telling her to to get out of here is they're saying begun praise triple praise bojangles assessment funday. Today's times is brought to you by season two of the breach podcast. What makes it a data breach? The worst breach of all time. How about losing our social security numbers the keys to our identities. How about losing one hundred forty five million of them? Nobody no, not fun. Have your info out there? So someone can hack into your Bank account hack into your cloud storage. Maybe find some clean wing picks. You'd rather have out there and possibly take so much. More breaches, the podcast takes you inside the world's biggest hacks. How they're done who does them, and what's really at stake when your private data is compromised and this season, they're investigating the worst breach ever equifax. Who might have your credit info, not good? So many of us live on credit. Try Bina a car or house without a good score. Because someone's messed it up by stealing your identity. So listen to season two of the breach the equifax story this time, it's personal subscribed to breach that's B R E A, C H and your podcast app right now. Get in some extra learning. Thanks again to all the new listeners who have been trying out time suck lately numbers been soaring. Thanks for giving me the confidence to buy adds another podcast hill. Nimrods pretty exciting. I know there's a lot of options for what you can put in your ear vaginas. Is out there. And appreciate you. Let us out penetrate, yours, this is the first podcast recorded since Salt Lake City. Yeah. I know I already said, thank you. But man, those shows were so fun, not just the life odd guest. Stand up shows the happy murdered shows late show Saturday that stand up show one of my favorite stand up shows just ever love, you suckers, the energy was electric. So we have no more happy murder dates for a few weeks. I wanna be off to Florida this week to head on a free cruise with the Queen is suck going to be on a mediocre time with Tom and Dan cruise March seven to eleven love those guys love their podcast. Can't wait next. Stand up shows are also in Florida. I'll beat the off the hook comedy club in Naples, Florida, March twenty eighth first time there and then the Miami improv first time in a long time. I know I was the first time in that particular club and Saturday March thirtieth then I'll be in the Queen of the suck of Lindy's hometown. Cleveland Ohio the Warsaw of America, April four through six with another live heal kids suck on. Cleveland on April sixth hour in Cleveland on April. Six Lindsay will be there to Des Moines. April eleventh Kansas City, April twelfth and thirteenth. Dallas Texas twenty-six Houston, Texas, seven then San Francisco Boston Spokane Jacksonville 'em or the rest of the dates at Dan, Kelman's dot TV. Now, let's blow this suck the fuck up. It's Yuna bomber time. Meet sacks. No real context. Lay down for this one. Today's they suck is pretty damn chronological. Ted wasn't a product of times our time. You know, he was he was a product of a very very unique highly intelligent extremely twisted brain. Let's just get right to it. Let's get right into the life of one of America's most infamous domestic terrorists in today's time. Suck timeline. Shrimp on those boots soldier when marching down a time summertime line. May twenty seconds nineteen forty two Theodore John Kaczynski was the first child born in Chicago to blue-collar second second-generation polish-americans Theodore Turk and Wanda Kaczynski so polish people, you know, of course, of course, the give birth to a monster. Like, Ted Kaczynski, Ted Bundy, John Wayne gay city, Hitler, Kim Jong Hoon Stalin Pol. Pot Dahmer cheek Aotearoa Ronald McDonald Donald MacDonald. Donald MC Ronald gremlins, the joker the penguin. Doctor doom the one due to the gas station gives me the GB's ninety eight percent of sex offenders all polish recent study that I found that a place. You don't even know about just prove that it was conducted by some doctors you've never heard of and you can't find anywhere because Google won't allow the results to be found because Google is also polish Google's original name Google. Ski the dropped a ski to make them more palatable. I don't need to see. I'm kidding do. I I don't think I hope not because these parents were really second generation polish as true Ted was initially a happy and healthy baby. When he suffered a terrible outbreak of hives when he was six months old it put him in the hospital for eight months, it might have scrambled noodle little bit. Now, I have something new to be afraid of. I I didn't think it was possible for hives put you in the hospital for anywhere near that long. I got highs once in college for like two days allergic reaction to penicillin, my mom, the mom refused acknowledged that. I'm in fact, allergic to penicillin to this day as if I wasn't told by an actual doctor mother, you example, really angry mother, you're lucky. You don't have a cat. Cardinal slip into at Kemper from time to time now anyway, hives also known as Arctic Arctic. My gotta hate some of these worse or to you or to carry a or to carry you. There we go hives is a little easier to say than earth to carry a it's a swollen or outbreak of swollen pale red bumps also notice plaques or wheels on the skin that appears suddenly either is the result of the body's reaction to certain allergens, or for unknown reasons. Super sexy hives usually cause itching, but may also burner sting they can appear anywhere on the body including the face lips tongue throat or ears. Highs vary incised from the size of pencil eraser to the size of a dinner plate may join together to form a larger areas notice plaques they can last for hours up to one day before fading. Highs can also be accompanied by swelling, which can kill you. Swollen constricts your airway, for example, and usually get hives from an allergic reaction to something like nuts. Chocolate fish, tomatoes, eggs, fresh, berries, milk, certain insect bites. Medications can cause hives. But you can also get chronic or to carry a like baby Ted did for who knows? Why? Nobody knows it just it's very mysterious just happened sometimes chronic orchestra Jesus Christ or to carry a or hives lasting more than six weeks caused this behind is usually very difficult to identify. And in fact, it's it's impossible to determine why they show up in many cases, so young Ted stressful. I two years on earth severed from his parents left in a hospital bed to be alone. Most of the time not good for his brain. When it came to social development. Not good for psychological. Health human babies are born obviously super dependent on their parents babies, undergo huge, brain development, growth and neuron pruning, during the first two years of life and his brain development is as well as social emotional and cognitive development depends a great deal on a loving bond or attachment relationship with the primary caregiver usually apparent. There's increasing evidence from the field of developmental psych psychology, neurobiology animal EPA genetic studies that neglect. Parental inconsistency and a lack of love can lead to long-term mental health problems as well as reduced overall potential and happiness, so hug your babies. Spend time with your babies don't put them in a little, you know, baby carrier and just let you know. Don't put baby in the corner. You heard you heard a Patrick Swayze? Right. You you watch dirty dancing. No one puts baby to corner. K? Don't do that. Some people do put babies in corners. And it doesn't help the babies and then yet it's early hospital. Stay may have truly affected Ted, social and psychological developments. Pretty negative ways. In extreme cases. Severe emotional neglect from an infant's primary caregiver can can lead to a condition known as failure to thrive. I remember studying about that years ago in college was so sad decelerated or even arrested physical growth height and weight, measurements can fall below the third or fifth percentile, basically like a plant no-one waters, a child can stop growing if it's not giving enough attention and love emotional neglect, various attachment disorders, make it easier for someone to form. You know, make it harder. Excuse me for someone to form a meaningful relationships when they're when they're an adult later something Ted would for sure struggle with dude had basically, no meaningful relationships. Once you got into his, you know, mid twenties and didn't have a lot before. Then when Ted came home from the hospital in March of nineteen forty-three, his mother would ride baby home from hospital and is healthy. But quite unresponsive after his experience, quite unresponsive. Interesting note later in childhood of Ted was shown photographs of when he was an infant by being held down by doctors examining, his hives, Hugh, become overwhelmed anxious and disgruntled young Ted also exhibited heightened sympathy to caged animals, seemingly understanding the pain of force captivity. An isolation those highs left quite the mental scars on Ted from grades one through four because Inskeep tended Sherman elementary school in Chicago. He's a bit of a loner otherwise exhibited. No obvious social problems outside of not really having any close friends at this time. He was. For smart on October third nineteen forty nine when Ted is seven his younger, brother. David Kaczynski is born ten David get along. Normally as children years later, though, David would end up playing a crucial role in Ted getting arrested after one of the longest and most expensive FBI manhunts and history. Nineteen fifty two Ted's family of four moves to evergreen park. Evergreen park, Illinois, a southern suburb of Chicago initially settled primarily by Germans who I don't know if you know, this God's second least favorite race behind polish. According to most theological experts on the list of God who got hates most. The list that I've seen polish people number one German people number two. And then for some reason eskimos are third. I don't know why I just pass along what Nimrod tells me to say, so he'll run. No. After the after the move to a new school, Ted became notably more engaged social unhappy. This was a nice little window in his life. For whatever reason. Ted just click with these new kids in his fifth grade class found a nice little social group for himself read, friends, so respected. But this new social acceptance would only last about a year because his new school noticing how incredibly academically intelligent. He was made me take a an IQ test. And he scored a one sixty seven if you'll recall genius level. I q is considered to begin around one forty one forty five serial killer. Ed Kemper motorin for every bummer examples that guy tested, his highs one forty five and Ted just knocked out one sixty seven. Go back and forth on whether or not I wanna have my IQ tested. I'm not gonna lie. I maybe it shouldn't matter. I'll be pretty bummed if I took that test and I got like an eighty five foot eighty-five seriously. Plays them bread. Dead. Made me feel good. Chess legend, Bobby Fischer, also from Chicago, by the way, born in nineteen forty-three also alleged to have an IQ 167 guy who's known for being pretty sharp, very sharp in his young teachers administrators decided to accelerate Ted's education. These skip sixth grade Ted wasn't happy with the decision. He had just developed meaningful friendships with his peers, he was considered a leader. After the jump the younger than his classmates now Ted found himself getting picked on bullied went from have a large group of friends to being a social pariah to be an outcast actually worried about a similar situation with my son Kyle when he was younger we we've never had his IQ tests either. But he's incredibly academically gives it. I'm sure is accused quite a bit higher mind. We had him skip second grade. He switched to a program at a school for Vance kids and the teacher recommended him for a different school for Vance kids, and he tested into that. And I was I was worried about him being a social pariah at this new school. Luckily, seems to get along with all those other nerds in dorks indeed weirdos he can easily skip a few more grades. We're not going allow that not gonna push that on him. Because luckily, he's big for his age. She's the same size as classmates now. But I don't think the social repercussions potential social repercussions of being significantly younger. And smaller than your classmates is worth that type of accelerated, you know, kind of education graduation. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, maybe be fine. But I just think like you only get one shot at like, what's what's I mean? Honestly, what's the big rush? Ted would attend grades five through eight at evergreen park central school while there he developed a fear of other people start playing beside other kids rather than interacting with them. That's kind of a red flag. Get some socialist use his mother was so worried about his poor social development that she considered entering him into a study for autistic children to bet she wasn't able to do. So there's a lot of armchair kind of psychiatric speculation that Ted may indeed be on the autistic spectrum something he has asked burger syndrome, a developmental disorder characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication along with restricted and repetitive pattern. Of behavior and interests. He's never been officially tested at diagnosed on nineteen fifty-five Ted entered evergreen park community high school where he excelled academically. Of course, he joined a variety of groups including the math coin German and biology clubs. He also played the trombone in the schools banned is if he wasn't have enough raw social problems somehow who's able to acquire a small group of friends who shared his interest in math and science, and we're able to overlook his interest in the trombone and interest, better better sexy and cool the keytar or maybe the accordion, an instrument not even close to a sexy as the air Banjul pretend tent tenths don't tank. Teddington play the trombone in the marching band is if being waste smarter than everyone younger and socio quirk didn't already make it hard enough to meet a girl Ted was considered quiet and shy side of this small group of friends. He was also widely considered the most intelligent student is high school 'specially when it came to math. He became obsessed with mathematics spending, prolonged hours locked in his room practicing differential equations instead of socializing with Pierce. He quickly far surpassed mathematical abilities of his classmates able to salt advanced la- place transforms before his senior year, and what is a place transform you ask well, it is a series of exponentially, increasing fractions that also operate is prime numbers that can be converted into integral algorithms and subverted in folded into theoretical chemical compounds that act as place holders or the place holders for helium infused particles went that magnetically conduct subatomic celebration. If left. Vacuum or nightstand or hung from key chain. And if you know more about math and me, you know, that what I said was complete gibberish. I just don't get a lot of big words, and I don't know some of the no the place transforms an integral transform it's not a transformer that'd be fucking cooler named after its inventor Pierre Simon la- place. It takes a function of a real variable tee off in time to a function of a complex variable s complex frequency, and if you have any fucking idea what that means what so ever you are much more educated than I am when it comes to math that entire the real definition was still gibberish to me made about as much sense, as my nonsense definition might as well been defined as a molecular hyperbole divided self by multiple gerbils would feel threatened or tries to worm hole through the moon matrix of the okay? Reasonable Ted took the most difficult math classes, his high school offered yet still felt on challenged. I cannot relate to that. I took the easiest math class offered by Gonzaga university. Like, the one that all the athletes and the liberal arts majors like myself took still challenged and he was just good in math. He was good at all of his classes better than good. He's exceptional. He was one of only five national merit scholars at his high school Ted received an accelerated, education course, load ended up also skipping the eleventh grade, then he took additional summer classes that allowed him to graduate. When he was just fifteen years old in the fall of nineteen fifty seven he was encouraged to apply for Harvard and was accepted into Harvard and set to begin classes there are nineteen Fifty-eight. Not only was he accepted. He was also given a substantial scholarship to Harvard Harvard again, what he's, you know, sixteen years old. So he moves to Boston enrolling Ivy league school at only sixteen years old beyond academically. Impressive while at Harvard. Kozinski would be taught by. Famed logistician house like logic. I hate this word, I think it's like logics. It's like if you crossed a magician with someone who's good at logic. I think it's a legitimate. You know, what I didn't put the phonetic one in for that one logic. I a n whatever William van Orman Quinn was the guy who taught this and he scored at the top of Quinn's class with a ninety eight point nine percent final. Great scoring ninety eight point nine percent in a class. Not one pay semi begins understand. I can't even pronounce the type of Mathis and he's doing this despite being a couple years younger than most. If not all of his classmates in fucking Harvard genius kicking ass math. He also suffers psychologically at Harvard. Some shady ass experiments conducted at Harvard would help twist young insanely gifted yet. Fragile mathematical mind into a future domestic terrorist. I those hives now he gets his powerful noodles. Scrambled at Harvard in nineteen Fifty-nine during Kaczynski sophomore year. He was recruited for a psychological experiment that unbeknownst to him would last for three years the multiple year personality study was conducted by Dr. Sir. Henry Murray, an expert on stress interviews and quite possibly based on some of the experiments. He conducted in the way, he conducted them. Also, an asshole the study that involved Ted was sponsored by the Central Intelligence Agency at the CIA doing this study twenty two students participate, and they're told they would be just abating personal philosophy with fellow student. Instead they were subjected to a purposely, brutalizing psychological experiments stress test, which was an extremely stressful personal and prolonged psychological attack during the test students were taken to a room strapped into a chair connected to electrodes that monitored their physiological reactions wall facing bright lights and a two way mirror. Henry Murray's experiment was intended to measure how people react under stress the back to because it wanted to find out how to weed out potential agents for being too psychologically weak to withstand interrogation from the enemy each student had previously written an essay detailing their personal beliefs and aspirated like their core value. These essays were turned over to an anonymous attorney who would enter the room and just belittle a strap down student based in part on the disclosures they had made and this was filmed, and then the students expressions of impotent rage were then played back to them several times later in the study just some weird like clockwork orange type shit going on at Harvard years later because he's a lawyers would attribute some of his emotional instability to his participation in this exact study. I mean, I bet he seventeen years old when this start he strapped into cherry screamed at by some asshole, making fun of everything he's ever believed in or wanted to do then has his reactions to being bullied thrown back in his face pretty fucked up, and you know, and he was fucked fucked within this experiment off and on for three years from seventeen to twenty you know, when you when he's trying to figure out who he is now he fits into the world over three years because in ski logged over two hundred hours of being psychologically, abused this study and Kaczynski is claimed to have had the worst. Physiological reactions of anyone who participated this is the guy who hated feeling trapped as a kid the guy who empathize with caged animals, you should've been screened beforehand and not allowed to participate in this study. He was too fragile. The experiments pair was his lack of social skills and memories of being bullied as a child caused because Inskeep suffer from horrible nightmares while at Harvard, and what's his mind also being altered and messed with with LSD during some of these big interrogation. I mean, that's not confirmed. But I think it's possible. This is when the CIA was working on their M K ultra mind control experiments, if you will recall from the M K ultra suck bonus suck eight while back. Now, we know the CIA was conducting LSD experiments this time. They also conducted experiments at Harvard around this time, right? We also know they didn't necessarily tell whoever they dosed with LSD. Did they had been dosed Kaczynski himself would reveal much later in life. That are distrust of thirty and some anarchist fantasies began to manifest themselves in his mind around this time. Yeah, bet they did. He started fantasizing about fucking. With people in the government that fucked with him nineteen sixty two twenty year old Kaczynski graduates from Harvard with a bachelor's in mathematics. He moves to Ann Arbor Michigan to continue his mathematical studies at the university of Michigan where he'd been given a substantial grant and a guaranteed teaching position. He specializes in complex analysis with a focus on geometric function theory, wherever that means he was much gooder than me or in numbers professors at Michigan were astounded by his drive and commitment economics one professor Peter Duran. When describing Kaczynski later stated he was unusual person. He was not like the other graduate students. He was much more focused on blowing motherfuckers up. I remember thinking that that was weird last night. We said did say he was unusual though. And he also said he was much more focused on on his work. Hit a drive to discover mathematical truth professors also claim that describing him as merely smart was insulting. It was incredibly simplified and demeaning. He was far more than smart. He's a genius. He was passionate about his studies pursued as work to a higher goal than most. If not all of his peers while he was in Michigan. He also taught classes and worked on his PHD dissertation, which was highly praised. He won the university of Michigan's highly prestigious Sumner b Myers prize awarded to the top mathematics dissertation each year. The dissertation was widely considered an absolute masterpiece. Among the best written in the history of the university of Michigan. He followed up his dissertation with two journal articles before he left the university of Michigan later published. Three more. I could read you some of those experts are excerpts. But I don't want to either a fall asleep while recording my own podcast or be get so angry that I have no idea what's being talked about. I started punching holes in walls of the suck dungeon nineteen sixty seven since he earned his doctorate degree from the university of Michigan moved west teach at the university of California Berkeley Kaczynski the age twenty five became the youngest assistant mathematics professor in the university. A history of the university of California, Berkeley, not too shabby man do. Dude is on academic fire infla- go. Although greatly respected by faculty students. However, despite only being a few years younger than him did not care for ten. He was a brilliant mind. But he was a terrible. Professor. This is Berkeley in nineteen sixty seven. I mean, if I could be like single in nineteen at one point in all of human history, if I could pick a place at a time, it literally might be Berkeley in the summer of nineteen sixty-seven free love this. This is the summer of free love the height of the hippie counterculture movement. Hot barefoot bohemian coeds long flowing dresses flowers, and they're thick luxurious beautiful hair. No bras. No moral hangups on sexuality HALE is to FINA some much we'd the birth control pill. No aids lots of incredible music the door singing, light my fire. Get the fuck out the Beatles. Singing strawberry fields. Forever. Jimi. Hendrix thrown down of six with nine. The Rolling Stones. Sing let's spend the night together drugs, sex rock and roll. I can feel. Who Safina in the room with you right now her presence is strong. She loved nineteen sixty seven is bringing all down set the world on fire party. Like, you're never gonna die. Fuck like, there's no tomorrow. Berkeley is the lustful beating heart of all of this and Ted is there with a good job at a cool school. He's twenty five he could live the best possible. Life could lead to nineteen sixty seven shouldn't have threesomes and dropping acid tend to music festivals. Instead, he's just annoyed that students. Don't understand math is good as he does captain geometric function theory talking about the place transforms at a bunch of other shit known cares about talking about it. The most robotic emotionless way possible. The Ted was a rigid unapproachable off-putting professor he never answered questions. He was known for teaching forbade them from textbooks. He had no use for students who couldn't just get it like heated. I would have hated this dude. If he's my fester. I mean whether intentional or not it. He just came across like a pretentious distance asshole. And since I can't find a single mention if even one romantic. Interest from young Ted's life. You know, he was a sexually frustrated pretentious asshole argument. The worst kind you. He kept waiting to clean. Maybe he wouldn't have sent out some bombs later. If you just gotta stick a little dirtier, take the edge off. On June thirtieth nineteen sixty nine Ted unexpectedly resigned from teaching never gave the school reason for leaving peers and colleagues suggested that had he remained. He would have been promoted to a senior faculty position despite being a terrible. Professor. They wanted him around his crew. So damn smart something he walked away because you know, he's probably just allergic to fund and got bored. No, something that people think he way or think he walked away skews me because he figured out all the equations that he knew how to look into like how insane is that. Most major innovations in theories mathematics have been proven by the nineteen sixties. And there just wasn't very many new frontiers left for him to study. I don't claim to understand this in his particular field of mathematics, Ted had mastered pretty much everything. And this particular field was becoming outdated and antiquated and just people weren't interested in pursuing it further the way it's written. It reminds you like Michael Jordan walking away from basketball at the height of his power. Right. Who's fucking dominating? And just. I'm boring. Can you imagine being that good at anything? Do you don't have sex anymore ever? Nah. It's now just I mastered. It it's too good. Wasn't fun Marai sapped right after I gave ten different women multiple simultaneous orgasms back in two thousand sixteen used to use my penis. Some mouse different finger some toes and knee a lot of flexibility, and that didn't even break sweat to them actually died from pleasure overdose. Doctors didn't even know that was possible until the evening. Meanwhile, daydreaming about what I was gonna watch out towards Netflix. You know, she just got to easy boring. I just didn't care about it. Kozinski moved to go live with his parents after he left went to Lombard, Illinois in nineteen sixty nine he stayed there for two years working odd jobs trying to figure out what to do with the rest of his life. He longed to get away from civilization away from people people who either irritated him or who just didn't largely trust. He wanted to get away from the system that tormented him at Harvard. He decided to go off the grid. But where she go. He finally picked Lincoln Montana less than eighty miles east of Montana's. Big college town Missoula a city, only two and a half hours drive from suck dungeon here. In in Idaho. Lincoln super remote small town about a thousand people. He bought some land one point four acres to be exact outside of Lincoln with the help his brother, David, if you know the area he bought some land in Florence Gulch within a mile of Stemple pass wrote reminds me of people who have land outside of Riggins, Idaho. Where I grew up, you know, you can still go to town for supplies when you need them. But when you're home, you've got some acreage, you might as well be on another uninhabited planet. You can't even hear other human evidence of human life. Can't see anything. Made by humans nineteen seventy-one. Ted built a remote primitive cabinet on his land to Lincoln, no electricity. No running water his goal to become self sufficient live off the land carve out a simple existence and back, then it wouldn't take much money to do that. My dad worked as a logger and Riggins Idaho. Which really isn't that far from Lincoln? Maybe a six hour drive. Very similar culture. Similar geography. I'm guessing very similar real estate prices. My dad said you could buy a plot of land back then like in the early mid seventies little city lot for for less than a thousand books easy. Like that sounds crazy. The median value of a home sold in the United States nineteen seventy was seventeen thousand dollars, and that's factored in Los Angeles and Manhattan prices, and that's factoring in a home. Like an home built on the land raw land and bump Faulk Montana under thousand dollars easy. And if you build some little cabin with no electricity. No running water just drinking out of a creek, hoping not to get dysentery and here MacGill's pop. You live for next nothing, especially if you grew in, you know, grew your own food and hunted your own food like Ted did Ted didn't care about TV or the movies or going out to eat. He wrote a bike to the local library reading classics in their original languages like a weird. You know, backwoods cabin genius does live beyond fr. Ugly to make some money. He worked the occasional odd job, you know, here and there help them in this fans, helping split this firewood that kinda shit riding his bicycle to. And from town even studied survival is topics from tracking game to edible plants and organic farming. Some of the locals didn't mind him creeped others out regarding what locals Dada longtime Unabomber neighbor. Chris weights would say most friendly but respected his need for privacy and kept their distance some voted him as they would've tramp. And he gladly avoided them occasionally crossing the street. So they wouldn't have to say Hello to the bearded often unkempt and sometimes smelly recuse. Chris we're going to co author a book about Ted called Unibond the secret life of Ted Kaczynski, Chris Ted Kaczynski's friend and neighbor in the Montana mountains for twenty five years. ABC news called him. The man who knew too who knew Ted best. Chris was also the guy who had nine different dogs likely killed by Ted, which says a lot about the friendship. Ted didn't have friends. He was the ultimate recluse Christmas neighbor, and when Chris's dogs would wander onto Ted's property, he often often died more on that more on that later in the story. Ted pulled off his reclusive lifestyle for a long time. He lived for over two decades as a as a happy antisocial math whiz. Living in the woods shit in an outhouse like some kind of frontier days pioneer reenactment actor. By nineteen seventy-five, however, Kozinski decided it was impossible to live peacefully nature because of the destruction of the wilderness around his cabin by real estate development and industrial projects. Here we go. Harry starts transition into the Unabomber. He begins forming acts of environmental sabotage against nearby developments. Nineteen seventy five becomes an eco terrorist. We had those around ribbons too. And I grew up in definitely a little bit before I was born people spike in trees, so loggers chainsaws we could fucked up when they hit that metal putting sugar and gas tanks to ruin engines on logging equipment that kind of thing roaming on foot and on bicycle and a twenty five mile radius from his cabin Lincoln's environmental radical, according to several sources booby-trapped motorcycle trails with wire strung between trees, sabotage mining machinery was sand burned logging. Equipment poured sugar into snowmobile gas, tanks destroyed hunting and mining camps and vacation cabins with Zack's no bombs yet. But clearly just living by his own moral code the exists far outside the law is points. Clearly going to little off the rails that Montana neighbor. Chris waits would later say Atra Kuczynski was captured that oh, yes. Talk about these dogs for second. Ted killed nine of his dogs over a decade largely by poison. Them with strychnine. Mr. wait said he'd heard Mr. Zinke Kirsten dogs whose barking may have betrayed Ted's location in the woods. Probably when he's trying to do these access sabotage tech confessed to at least one of these killings years later in a rambling letter written in prison. Fucking Ted man, you know, at some point in the store, I started I feel a little sorry for him. But but this man, you you waste the summer love. And now you kill docs justifying their desks. I'm sure as part of your strange misguided and futile quest to keep technology from destroy nature now bojangles hate your guts time sucks resident one eyed three like pit bull defender freedom wants to raise one of his legs piss on your crazy bearded mount men face right now after a few years of environmental sabotage Ted decides to take things further he decides to build bombs target those who are considered adversarial to his objectives and goals to bring down what he called the techno industrial system, which he believed to be enslaving the human race and to really understand Ted's motivation for his acts of terrorism we need to take a look at what he is most known for outside of bombs. And that's his manifesto going to jump ahead real quick to the manifesto in nine hundred five new will come back to the time. The rest you were pick up where we left off at the time and Ted would deadwood mainly thirty five thousand word manifesto. He working on for over a decade to several major media outlets, including the Washington Post and the New York Times explaining why he was bombing people the essay was titled industrial society and its future and was dubbed the Unabomber manifesto by the FBI. He stated that if the manifesto was printed in its entirety. He would desist from terrorism originally Bob Gucci Guccione of a penthouse volunteered to publish it. But because Inskeep replied that penthouse was less respectable than the other publications and said he would reserve the right to plant one and only one bomb intended to kill after the manuscript had been published. It was published in penthouse. Instead, the essay was published by both New York Times Washington Post on September nineteenth nineteen ninety-five. I I love that. He did agree to stop. If penthouse published it, but only. After one more bomb because penthouses less than respectable. I do not want to denigrate penthouse, and it does indeed have a national distribution. So I will stop bombing if they print it. I'm a man of my word, but I will stop bombing only after I sent one more bomb and the blood of that bomb is on penthouse. The the blood is on the publication distributing full penetration pornography making it less respectable pornography. That includes photos of pain is's being inserted into animals factors in glossy airbrushed, well at detail that I personally think it's a bit much penthouse, man. That's what I saw full penetration for the first time in a penthouse magazine. The someone had placed in a grocery bag and left out in the woods outside of Reagan. Daito not kidding old school bag in the woods, porn, my rent Schuyler and chance they found out about the bag somehow, I think they're older brother John told him about it. I don't I don't I don't know who I put it in the woods. Maybe Saint penthouse maybe the the patron Saint of full penetration. My mom was. Blown. I was I remember being so confused. I remember looking over their shoulders all crouch down. Look, I remember looking over there and changes shoulders, and I was just so confused by the site of an erect penis in women's, but I just recently seen a picture of a penis going into a vagina and that whole after some explaining did make sense to me. But but we're your your poop comes out. I didn't even know that was anatomically possible until that day instead of being discussed it. Well, new fantasy was born hairless feed 'em how many holes get pays going to. We're not talking about me and holes. We're talking about the unit bomber here. Here is the beginning of his manifesto. The times made sense to me. Would you time has made me concerned about my own mental health? He starts off the industrial revolution. And its consequences have been Zastava for the human race. They have greatly increased the life expectancy of those of us who live in advanced countries, but they have to stabilize society have made life unfulfilling have subjected human beings to indignities have led to widespread psychological suffering in the third world to physical suffering as well and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subjects human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world. It will probably lead to greater social disruption in psychological suffering, and it may lead to increase physical suffering even in quote, unquote, advanced countries, you know, for genius for guys. Spend a lot of time in the woods. Reading book after book old teddy K didn't seem to know much about real history. Like medieval history Roman history engine Mongolian history, virtually any kind of agent history has the industrial revolution. Subjected human beings to greater indignities than medieval serfdom is that true out think so are third world factories. You know, you know, there will factory workers. Are they worse off than the wlac in peasants were in the fifteenth century during the reign of Ladd, the Impaler, I doubt it? And what about to pick one of many examples medicinal advances of western medicine that have been company that have accompanied the industrial revolution has improved life immensely arena. Glad to no longer need to rely on plague doctors owner of Ted would have written this manifesto, if he would have suffered Lexa major health problems while living in his shitty backwards cabin you still going to be promoting that primitive life. So gonna think it's fantastic. When you died of cancer. You didn't go ahead of the city get treated by an actual fucking doctor in a real hospital or you gonna just rub some herbs and roots on your tumor and your shitty cabin. This capitalist. Shady by the way, I looked at photos, and I would be embarrassed to have it in my backyard as shed I can't believe he lived in it for so many years if destroying the techno industrial system is having to live in shitty. Yuna bomber cabin shed for sure out. Yeah. No, thank you. Then Ted says the industrial technological system may survive or it may break down if it survives. It may eventually Chievo a low level of physical and psychological suffering, but only after passing through long, very painful period of adjustment and only at the cost of permanently reducing human beings and many other living organisms to engineer products than mere call in the social machine for the more. If the system survives the consequences will be inevitable. There is no way of reforming or modifying the system so as to prevent it from depriving people of dignity and autonomy cogs in the social machine. Yeah. I mean that is what we are Ted. But but is that necessarily? Inherently a bad thing. You know, not everybody wants to live completely alone in the woods like a bearded. Fuck and maniac. Some people. Enjoy being dependent on one another. Yes. Most of us who's emotional makeup. Wasn't cooked. Scrambled by bad outbreak of hives, and we were baby and twisted further by mind, control and interrogation experiments, actually crave. Some sort of relationship with the outside world, I can be antisocial as hell, but I would never want to live in a cabin entirely alone would nothing but books and my thoughts to keep me company. Sounds like a fun week long vacation does not sound like a good longterm way of living. I get to this guy wanted to be left alone. But now he's trying to push extremely leftist center lifestyle and the rest of the world. That's what I was hate with these fucking maniacs. It's like they have their ideas. And maybe there's some validity to their ideas. That's fine for them. What we all have to live that way. Why did Ted feel so era Gance, you know, I guess maybe because of his intelligence that, you know, this is the way that everyone needs to live. You know, why there weren't a lot of other people living in a remote handmade cabinet around. You Ted it's because because they don't want to not because they couldn't figure it out. They would rather live as hard as it may be to imagine because Ted is still alive. If somehow he could hear this. I doubt he listen to podcasts puts they would rather live in an apartment in a city surrounded by people and choices of entertainment and food options. All then live in some Yuna bomber looney toon. Cabin a lot of people prefer that people prefer, the suburbs. Some people love the suburbs. Some people love their studio apartment so fucking maniac. Made a smart as he was mathematically more on when it came to understanding the diversity of human desires. Okay. I'm gonna skip ahead now in his rambling manifesto pick a few more experts because it's so long. I says we therefore advocate a revolution against the industrial system. This revolution may or may not make use of violence. It may be sudden or it may be a relatively gradual process spanning a few decades. I love his use of we hear we advocate. I think you mean me close, but not we your loan. No one's in that cab. With you. Not sure who you think is joining this revolution assured voice voices, the voice in your head or talking to you about right now, he says this is not to be a political revolution. It's object will be to overthrow not governments, but the economic and technological basis of the present society. Yeah. Good luck with that. I actually think it'd be easier to overthrow the government. Then it would. Like, then it would be to get people to overthrow their dependence on technology. Right. Like, some anarchist might be like, no, you're gonna overthrow the government. Okay. Hell, yeah. Now, whatever fucking radios machine all shows. Do it much crooked. Politicians hit big Fara corporate, America, shakes shit up. Yeah. Let's do this. Oh, wait. What I'm sorry. What would you say? You know, what I mean toss iphone yummy. You owe me throwing my map book that I watch Netflix on that you want to take my PS four. I can't play red redemption. My one fifteen hundred gets drive a truck. Well, before I just I just bought new fuel ribs is that at leveling kit put in I just pay head of my Sirius XM subscription. No, no. I'm out. Hey, I'll cut your hands off if you try to take my four K flat screen. All right. Got her. Ted, die Cooper second psycho. No one's getting rid of technology. Sorry, ted. It is beyond here to stay later. Ted writes, in modern industrial society, only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one's physical needs. It is enough to go through a training program to acquire some petty technical skill then come to work on time and exert the very modest effort needed dole job, the only requirements are a moderate amount of intelligence and most of all simple caps. Obedience? If one has those society takes care of one from cradle to grave obedience. Ted does not like obedience. Does not like feeling that he has to be obedient to the man or anybody. Of course, he doesn't already strapped to a chair, psychologically, tortured and college now, then he continues to ramble on and on and on his manifesto, David style, you know, talking about leftists ally. Leftism is a totalitarian force left is hate America. The hate everything's accessible the hate white men, then he tax conservatives things can serve as fools to ignore the influence of technology and accomplishing leftist goals says it technology, a separate man from nature, etc. Lot of lot of rambling thoughts go on and on and on. And honestly, he does make some good points throughout his ramblings. Many of us probably are too disconnected from nature, the extreme left is intolerant towards ideas and values that are not their own so's extreme, right? But Ted never offers in all thirty five thousand words, you know, what what it would take to, you know, resolve everything he never offers a solution. How are we supposed to get rid of technology and live happily? How exactly does that happen? How will it make life better? He doesn't know. He just. Hates being controlled as being obedient. Clearly pushed back on that study. He wants to be left alone. He's happy in nature. He thinks natural lifelike kids would be better for everybody. And how does one accomplish that? How does one criticize for everybody by by launching a violent revolution against technology? The seems to be the basic motivation for his actions throughout the rest of this timeline. 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It cross talk from the edge part no-holds-barred delving into the dark stuff. This often led left unsaid complete with a soundtrack to die. For Ozzy confidential is a podcast people personalities and weirdly wild notions about what we reveal and what we most want to conceal episodes can be twenty minutes. They can be two hours long. You never know. Whatever is best for that episode on Ozzy confidential deformed fits the function. So listen up for Ozzy confidential available everywhere audio lives, and if you just can't wait listen a day early only on Himalayas, you can download the Himalayas podcast app. This is the podcast. Your mother warned you about only from Ozzy live curiously now's Quebec nineteen seventy eight the year Ted escalates from saboteur to to terrorist load. The ted. Aim the Ted fire. The tint in the spring of nineteen Seventy-eight Ted has back home to visit his family. Also drops off his first bomb filled to bomb part is the primary motivation for this. Visit it doesn't feel like his acts of local Montana. Environmental eco terrorism are Nuff, right. He's got a tack the sources of technology and industry his first bomb targets. Buckley? Kristen Mckee a mechanical engineering professor at Northwestern University. Someone teaching young minds through the most horrible disgusting, vile things imaginable stuff like how to build medical devices and useful industrial products. A may twenty fifth nineteen Seventy-eight because Inskeep drops a package off containing his homemade bomb in a parking lot university of Chicago someone found the package delivered it to Chris on the twenty Chris notice the package was marked returned to sender. As if he had sent this package out got a little suspicious. Not sure why Ted labeled it that way. Like like, Chris would would send a bomb to himself. So you know, he he knew he didn't send his back in the first place suspicious calls campus security security officer Terry marker opens the box when he does the bomb explodes. Luckily, not a very big explosion left him with only a minor wound on his left hand. The primary component is I bomb was a was a length of metal pipe or was a length. Skews me a length of metal pipe about one inch diameter about nine inches long containing smokeless explosive powder containing a box the box and the plug sealing. The pipes ends were hand crafted from would most pipebombs use threaded metal ends the wooden ends lack the strength for significant pressure to build up within the pipe which. Is what greatly weaken the blast the trigger bombs trigger or the bombs trigger. Was was a nail tension by rubber bands, which would strike six common match heads. When the box was opened the match heads would ignite in initiate combustion of the powder. Kaczynski would later use batteries and heat filament wire to ignite the powder more effectively. Maybe if Kaczynski himself had a mechanical engineering degree is I bomb would have been more powerful. Luckily, wasn't after this first bombing Ted briefly worked with his younger brother and father at a foam factory back in Illinois foam, cutting engineers in Addison, Illinois, we're job for a, you know, recent PHD, recent Berkeley, professor I picture him. Not quite fitting in with the other guys at the phone factory. Jimmy, where why are you work for you came over here? Them freight, railway transportation. That's good job. What about you? Tony bouncing for awhile to green mill. I love that play by my cousin because she'll used to date a bartender. There named Vincent overact. You ted? I taught about medical theory at Berkeley for a short time that I shoveled snow in split firewood in Lincoln, Montana. Live is survival list. I also helped mister Livingston replaced. Get in her fence his fence, excuse me. When I wasn't doubt writing a manifesto on how to start the upcoming techno industrial paradigm subversion. Yeah. Okay. All right anyway. Hey, guys. This know what the fuck how does this guy fit in you? Well, back in Chicago, Ted has the only romantic experience of his life that I know of and by romantic experience. I mean, he went onto very unromantic dates with a woman named Ellen Carmichael who was a supervisor at the factory based on interviews. She would give years later. It does not sound like they hooked up at all sounds like she was bored out of her mind. Didn't have a good time. Never wanted to go on another date with Ted ever. Again. She said that they had dinner as suburban restaurant for the first eight two weeks after that, which is not a good sign already two weeks after that first date, you know, probably not a good. They went they went out to pick apples. And and then went to his parents house with a baked apple pie. And then she said it was on that occasion. That I informed that I did not wish to see him further on a social basis because I felt we did not have much in common. Besides our employment. Feels like she may maybe just been kind of like pressure. Like, it was a guy at works. Like, okay, doesn't even really wanted to go on the set. And I bet you didn't she wanted to talk about movies and music and like normal shit. He wanted to talk about destroying America's techno industrial system. God I wish I could get like see camera footage of you know, their date. Do you? See greasy. Ted so good, so fun. Travolta was amazing. He's such a good dancer. In addition to being a good actor. Ted's? I'll no I have not seen Greece nor do I intend to Ellen. The only Greece I'm interested in is the kinda man may use to repair horsedrawn wagon or perhaps place in between two hand hewn logs. His stacked one atop the other without assistance in the remote wilderness of Montana, Ellen view emotion. Picture requires financially supporting the techno complex required to film, it which leads to increase material production, which leads to factory construction which leads to disintegration of the human psyche and further dependence on urban living, which will lead to further separation from nature, which if taken further Ellen. Why are you putting on your jacket Ellen the pious not finished baking yet? Please ellen. We picked this from naturally occurring orchard ally. Why are you doing Ted does not handle Ellen's rejection? Very well at all the dude it was he's fucking crazy. He writes, what was. Called demeaning offensive limericks about her two dates doesn't wanna see anymore. So he decides to write some demeaning offensive lyrics and post them up from what it sounded like like the break room at work. Like these lyrics are cited in interviews later with both David his brother, David in an Ellen. Sadly, neither say what was written in these lyrics, and then, you know, because he post them at work his brother, David who who's actually, you know, another supervisor at this factory the guy who gave Ted the judge has to fire his brother for what he's done, which is so fucking awkward. He hates yet. We gotta we gotta have a talk from anybody. What's going on? David is it about the bomb? What she did. You are you say bomb bomb? No, I said mom is it about the mom. What? No. What's what's going on with mom, nothing that I know of David do, you know, something going on with mom? Anyway. Okay. It's frigging. It's about Ellen. It's about the limericks Ted. When you talk about the limericks, the ones I posted in the break room. Yes. Ted those lyrics. She's very upset. What did she not like did you not like the first one that went? We all know a woman named Ellen. She has a pair of C Cup. Chest melons. She won't let be touched them or even just suck them. So I'll make more bombs like oh felon. Is that the one it that she did not care for or was it this other one? I bet Ellen has a nice mowing vagina. I bet it is tighter than a finger trap from China. I want to put my penis insider like a cowboy to ride her, but I hear she is now fucking Tony from the loading dock who is not nearly as good at math as me and could never built his own cabin. So I'm going to try and bomb so many people to teach her a lesson and not even care about a Regina or breasts or hair smelling lavender ever again those. I am alone in masturbating. The Montana wilderness. Is that the one David I admit it, mashed he'll need some editing work. The end is a bit rough after all it is just a rough draft. Guy, which I could find those liver may ninth nineteen Seventy-nine. John Harris becomes the second victim of an attack linked to the Unabomber Harris would go on to become a university of Illinois. Professor he was a graduate student Northwestern University working in the schools technological institute at the time. He said there was a cigar box on the table outside my office. I picked it up intending to put some pens and pencils inside. It turned out to be a bomb which did not explode. It had a detonator that went off. I saw a bright flash. I don't remember hearing anything. Luckily, this bomb wasn't built that will either Harris treated at a hospital, you only suffered superficial burns noses hurt. Then on November fifteenth nineteen Seventy-nine Ted goes way bigger than trying to take out a student. He tries to take down an entire plane a parcel Ted meal from Chicago one he'd snuck on a plane somehow catches fire in a mailbag aboard. American Airlines flight four four four from Chicago to Washington DC the package contains a bomb that was constructed to explode inside the cargo. Hold midflight. Luckily, the bomb malfunctions. And fails to ignite. It does begin to smoke though, and the plane has to make an emergency landing twelve passengers end up being treated for smoke. Inhalation the bond is not ignited because instead of of explosive powder. It contained barium nitrate a powder often used to create green smoke and fireworks that required a different detonation temperature. This is the bomb that gets the FBI involved, the FBI investigates concludes that the bomb had it successfully gone off could have in fact, blown the plane out of the sky. They named the case Unum. The FBI creates a Unum task force in conjunction with the ATF and US postal service in nineteen seventy nine and begins devoting significant time and resources looking into the victims of this failed explosion attempt. The research proves to be useless, no correlation or relationship can be found to connect to victims preventing any potential suspect from being identified y plane, fuck and technology planes, pollute the environment play planes. You know, they pollute the precious nature. Ted love so dearly. Bring leftists and conservatives to Montana. Build more homes, and roads and other other horrible nature destroying things disturb the peace of being out in the wilderness loan despite the bomb. Malfunction Ted is not done with United Airlines on June tenth nineteen eighty a package bomb injures. United Airlines president Percy would is his home near Chicago would suffers burns and cuts over much of his body, but makes a full recovery. The bomb was rigged inside of a book ice brothers, a book about the crew of a coast guard vessel. Off of Greenland in World War Two. I wonder if Percy ever made a full psychological recovery from that like like you imagine opening a book you get in the mail and a fucking Bongos off your face. Hello PTSD. Like like, how are you? Not a little jump here in paranoid after that for the rest of your life right now that would have to take at least some of the joy out of opening presents on your birthday on Christmas morning. He magin after that like giving Percy like a Jack in the box for his birthday. Gotcha percy. How shit never seen? A man jump over a count from a state of position before. On October eight nine hundred eighty one another unit bomber bomb is found in the business class or in a business classroom at the university of Utah in Salt Lake City, but it is safely defused before. Condemned. Nate on may fifth nineteen eighty-two, Geno. Smith secretary at Vanderbilt Vanderbilt University opens a package containing the bomb. She suffered severe burns on her hands and shrapnel becomes law in parts for body. Luckily, surgeons are able to remove it. She makes a full physical recovery. FBI? Still doesn't have a clue doing this less than a month later on June. Second Ninety-two DO. Genesis angelakos an engineering professor at the university of California Berkeley, Kaczynski's old employer suffer severe burns and shrapnel lodge hands in his hands and face. He will also make a full recovery, minus two physical and psychological scars that one had to have been personal nineteen Eighty-three Ted if he wasn't already fully committed to his insane revolution becomes so. Now, someone started building a road through one of his favorite hiking spots back in. His Montana cabin the world. He left behind is now headed back towards him. He didn't move to a cabin. You know, where he had to read by candlelight to hear some goddamn caramel by he came there to be left alone. And try and grow a beard big enough to have its own ecosystem beard, where if you families have birds several chipmunks, squirrels moths and ants, maybe a small deer and shit coexist together in harmony and peace a beard, where smaller mountain man could could find some land inside of it and Bill was own cabin. And then that little mountain man could grow his own beard that would fit and even tinier mountain man to build his cabin. He moved to Montana. So he could create a strange surreal Russian doll bearded mountain man situation, he moved there. So he could walk around naked in the woods and beat off any Boehner's. You know, wherever he felt like, you know. So if if they interrupted his his hike or thoughts of equations. Ted was hiking to shaver quiet spot. Then he saw new road, it'd been carved. He describes this moment later saying it's kind of rolling country, not flat. And we get to the edge of it. You find these ravines the cut very steeply into cliff like drop offs. And there was even a waterfall there. It was about a two days hike for my cabin. That was the best spot until the summer of nineteen Eighty-three that's summer. There were too many people around my cabin. So I decided I needed some piece. I went back to the plateau when I got there. I found that they had put a road right through the middle of it. You just can't imagine. How said I was it was from that point on our decided that rather than trying to acquire acquire acquire further wilderness skills. I would work on getting back at the system revenge this when he really starts to begin work on his manifesto like properly, right? He's he's already been doing shit. Clearly. But now his ideas really really starting to crystallize released wanted to kick this revolution off when describing his new objectives later, he stated as I see. I don't think there is any controlled or planned way in which we can dismantle the industrial system. I think the only way we will rid of it is if it breaks down and collapses, the big problem is that people don't believe a revolution as possible, and it is not possible precisely because they do not believe it is possible to a large extent. I think the eco anarchist movement is accomplishing a great deal. But I think they could do it better. The real revolutionary can separate themselves from the reformers, and I think that it would be good. If a conscious effort was being made to get as many people as possible introduced to the wilderness in a general way by think, what has to be done is not to try and convince or persuade the majority of people that we are right as much tried to increase tensions in society to the point where things start to break down to create a situation where people get uncomfortable enough that they're going to rebel. So the question is how to increase those tensions bombs motherfucker. This upset. That's why you only wanted to start bomb stuff. Wanna do get that tension going does, you know, disrupt society cuttings meltdown? Do you? Find it interesting. These have these socks, you know, for years now and you finally put together an eighty three. Fury's academia furious with industrialists may fifteenth nine hundred five the first permanent injuries suffered by one of Kaczynski's victims occur when John Hauser a graduate student at the university of California, Berkeley, loses all four fingers on one of his hands. Sustains a severed artery in his right arm and suffers permanent partial vision loss in both of his is it could job tell with a fuck of a talented, Berkeley, grad students, you're really did something great for the environment. They're Jonah dream, by the way of being an air force fighter pilot and possibly working one days in astronaut, Ted. He ruined those dreams his bombs or his bomb. Blew those dreams just shit. A luckily house was able to create a new dream for himself new life from self he'd go on to become an accomplished researcher and professor of engineering at the university of Colorado. But an interview said, you know, he still gets obviously, you know, very angry about Ted Kaczynski when he looked at his hand he thinks about, you know, his dreams he once had when he hears a plane fly overhead and thinks about like how he used to want to be up there doing that. On June thirteenth a package bomb discovered in disarmed at Boeing and Auburn Washington November fifteenth nine hundred five they called you professor James McConnell. His assistant nNcholas Sueno or injured by a bomb addressed McConnell at Ted's alma mater, the university of Michigan. Professor McConnell seems to have embodied everything. Ted detested. He was rich. Flamboyant Reverend controversial success came from behavior modification research and theories, you know, and we know how Ted feels about you know, behavior. Modification research McConnell believe that people could be molded simply by deciding what they should be in the manipulated their behavior. Obedience McConnell is helping the techno industrial system. Create obedient little worker bees you must pay the price McConnell's work originated from research with flat worms. This is so weird after training some half inch long worms to navigate a simple. Maze. Mcconnell, then ground up trained worms fed them to untrained worms finding that. They were then able to negotiate the maze better than a control group. I know that sounds like one of my life. But apparently, he really did this. I don't know part of interesting. I didn't know that a worms could eat other worms and be worms could get smarter by aiding other worms. And now the little part of me worries that maybe we have a race of warn people that underground, maybe they get smarter for centuries, just eat and people's brains cemeteries. I'm pretty sure it's impossible. But might not be a bad idea to keep your eye out for smart weren't people, especially if you live near a cemetery where a lot of smart people in buried like I don't feel like people living in my hometown of Riggins have as much to worry about as people living like a college town, right? Probably a little bit lower quality warn people. You get back on the dark Kuti tutor wormed dummy. Give back in a dirt worm Creedon. You get back into your word whole you damn hillbilly weren't fellow. Yeah. Mcconnell was outspoken popular who's teaching Kozinski old school no evidence that he gave across pass but set known about him ninety sixty four McConnell was featured in the Saturday Evening Post article about his work suggests that Sunday, humans might be able to learn the piano by taking a pill or do a to take calculus by injection, two months. Later McConnell, even took a celebrated flat worms on the Steve Allen show, and then more fame and fortune came in the nineteen seventies with publication of McConnell's popular textbook understanding human behavior sold over a million copies used on more than seven hundred campuses, a nine hundred eighty two people magazine article pointed out, the McConnell's royalties of two hundred fifty thousand a year provided him with a forty thousand dollar Mercedes thousand bottle wine cellar in a new million dollar house. And then the Unabomber's package arrived at that house just outside and Arbor on November fifteenth nineteen ninety-five tape to the top was a one page letter with a Salt Lake City postmark said I'd like you to read this book everybody in your position should read this book McConnell asked his assistant. Nncholas Sueno to open it. And when Sweden started wrestling with it on the kitchen counter exploded, the blast blew a six inch hole in the kitchen counter and Sueno suffered shrapnel wounds and powder burns on his arms and legs McConnell suffered a slight hearing loss, but the bombings shook him deeply, psychologically as pointed as he pointed out later in a letter provided by friend and co author Daniel Gorn flow McConnell who died in one thousand nine hundred wrote. I just wanted around the house scarred. Angry and frustrated the F B I continues to search in vain for the Unabomber on December eleventh nineteen eighty five. The Unabomber kills for the first time one of his bombs takes the life of Hugh Scrutton in a parking lot near Sacramento, computer store, a bomb looks like a piece of debris killed him. When he picked it up outside the back door of a Sacramento, computer rental store. It was a crude device filled with tiny pieces of nails to maximize damage Scrutton at Berkeley connections. He was a summer. Math student in nineteen sixty seven summer loved the year. Kaczynski's started teaching there. Here's how the government sentencing memorandum for Ted's. Later federal trial would describe Hugh friends recall, Hugh is a man who embrace life gentleman with a sense of humor who travelled around the world climb mountains and studied languages, he cared about politics was fair and kind of business and was remembered as straightforward honest and sincere he left behind his mother sister, family members, a girlfriend who loved him dearly and a circle of friends and colleagues who respected and cared for him. And here's how Ted would describe Hugh's death. When he wrote about it in his Montana fucking maniac. Shed experiment. Ninety seven December eleventh nineteen five I planted a bomb disguised to look like a scrap of lumber behind Ren tech computer store in Sacramento, according to the San Francisco Examiner December twentieth. The operator of the store was killed blown to bits on December twelfth excellent humane way to eliminate somebody. He probably never felt a thing twenty-five thousand dollar reward offered rather flattering, man. Just. No remorse all part of Ted's crazy plan to bring down the techno industrial system and Hugh's death. Not painless by the way, the first person to arrive at the scene of the explosion said, they heard Hugh cry out to them. Oh, my God helped me so he did suffer. Okay, February twentieth. Nineteen thousand seven bomb injures, Gary right near his Salt Lake City, computer shop the blast ends him flying through the air more than two hundred pieces of shrapnel tear into his body some shards sever nerves in his left arm. Same kind of bomb. Ted us on Hugh, Scrutton disguised as a piece of wood someone left in the parking lot right would survive. And at least as recent two thousand eight he was still living in Utah working as technical sales engineer in the bio, pharmaceutical and medical device industries. He also went onto become close friends with Ted's brother, David effort, head was caught the to meet up a few times a year and David now considers Gary more of a brother than Ted wonder how Ted feels about that as he says in prison key magin, you try to kill somebody. They survive you go to prison, and then your family befriends that person and chooses their friendship over over your relationship, the relationship with you got to sting, and of course, Ted deserved all of that more for what he did just just kind of unusual the attack on Gary also led to the now. Infamous Unibond sketch sketch, you know, to do with the little mustache aviator sunglasses hooded sweatshirt a woman reported seeing a man dressed like that. And the parking lot outside of rights computer store moments before the bomb exploded, unfortunately, the famous sketch would never leave the FBI in the Unabomber task force that FBI collaboration with ATF US postal service any closer to catching Ted then the balmy stop for over six years. Ted's never given a good reason why seems like he mostly just focused on killing his neighbor Chris weights dogs during this premium. We talked about that we mentioned twice now already. Here's a little more detail. Chris said that one day July of ninety seven when he arrived home for working in the woods. And remember this is next door neighbor. Yeah. His wife Betty told him the dogs had crossed the goal toward Ted's property, then came home. This is so bizarre covered in human shit human shit was smeared into their coats smeared, more deeply than the animals. They just rolled around in some shit. They found Ted never confessed to doing this. But when you hear the rest of these dog tales becomes pretty safe to assume he did it nine hundred eighty eight Chris and Betty take short trip to Helena, Montana. Do some shopping when they get back home. They find one of their two year old malamute's line in the yard. Paralyzed the dog soon died the vet determined. He'd been a victim of poisoning later nine hundred eighty eight Chris and Betty bought a breeding pair of shar Pei's. And the first litter of puppies arrived the following summer. The dogs are well aware of Ted's habits and places nearby. He frequented, especially some trail above an old miners. Ditch were Ted would cross into the goals. Chris it was along for the dogs. Had worn a trail resembling a cow path on the hill. Outside just from running back and forth between their house and the old ditch. And then along the ditch sniffing for Ted Chris Farrell did he felt kind of bad that dogs? The dogs would interrupt Ted solitude. But you know, what are you gonna do? You know, if Ted really want to keep the dogs out. He should've built a fucking fence build a privacy fence. You're smart guy. Right. You're not to make a bomb. You probably how to make fucking fence the dogs. Chris had had had at the house. They were there to protect Betty when he wasn't home and also protect their their home from being vandalized robbed because that had happened to many of their neighbors and in the late eighties. The waits family dogs continued to be targets of mean-spirited acts quite often one or more than would limp home with cuts or deep bruises bojangles. Just told me that the Unabomber jumped the top three on his list of most despicable suck subjects the next two dogs to meet their demise were both shar Pei's Ted poisoning. Both then Ted shot there malamute, and this is all speculation. But I again, I really think he did this then because during the early nineties they lose four more dogs all poisoned. Why do I think Ted did this? Because after he finally got arrested ninety six or nineteen Ninety-six me the attack. Stop completely to me. Maybe more than anything else is proves that the Unabomber was not some kind of revolutionary huge huge. It a hateful antisocial fucking asshole. By he's such a hateful piece of shits. The don't have anybody around in bothering him. But some dogs bark. And then he has to kill them. Gee, boohoo Ted the people at Harvard were so mean to you you fucking crybaby. Should've hated yourself for being too goddamn week to stand up for yourself and opt out of that experiment, fucking baby. But you didn't you know, you could quit. You were never a revolutionary. You're is the dumbest fucking genius ever. You crack math equations, but you couldn't crack forming and maintaining normal human relationships instead of taking responsibility for that. And said realizing the problem was you not everybody else. You know, you just you just sat around and a little cabinet. You got bitter to student. You're angry thoughts and instead of trying to fix yourself. Just lash out at everybody else. That's always. Lenient? It's always easy. You know, even load your cell to lash out at their pets. Man. I hope prison life is just making you miserable out. The guards are fucking with you like those people at Harvard. Did you deserve it? And how much you hate to be obedient. You hate being caged. Well, now, you have to be obedient. You have to be a cage it's poetic on June. Twenty second nineteen Ninety-three the unit bomber strikes again injures. Charles Epstein university of California, San Francisco geneticists, Ted hated geneticists. He would later worn in his manifesto about advances to genetics which he argued would lead to genetic engineering that will be used to take away people's free. Will cause Inskeep believed that you gen-x would lead to a society where people are manufactured, and like cars are built based on the wants a need to society. He felt his focus on genetics would result in the in the essence of humans, dine Dr Epstein opened a padded Brown envelope. That had come in the mail the envelope. Exploded destroying three of his fingers breaking his arm burning his hand face and abdomen. Excuse me. He later said that. The package had been pointed in a slightly different direction bombing of killed him. Epstein had recently been the subject of a New York Times article you've been written about fairly frequently. He was one of the most prominent geneticists of the nineteen seventies this article brought Epstein Ted's. Attention FC was mostly known for pioneering work in the study of down syndrome. Not sure how that made him an evil symbol excuse me. Epstein hypothesize in the early nineteen seventies. At the extra chromosome would produce multiple copies of certain proteins, which would produce physical characteristics of the syndrome, a thesis that many researchers initially derided, but then was proven correct the Unabomber then taunted, Dr Epstein after the attack in another letter for not being smart enough to know better than to open a package from someone. He did not know he doesn't joys. This team was also a graduate of Harvard. He got his bachelor's in chemistry there in nineteen fifty-five got his first medical degree got his medical degree there in nineteen fifty nine. So he was really on Ted shitless, and then just two days later, David galernter galernter. Learned her Yale University, computer, scientists would become the Unabomber's next victim early in the morning of June twenty-fourth nineteen Ninety-three galernter Golovin tur-. Unlike it, go learned her settle in his fifth floor office in Arthur, k Watson hall at the base of science hill. Having just returned from vacation, Washington DC galernter found a stack of mail including the package a peach D dissertation. He assumes on chair ripping open the package smoke billowed out. And there was a flash Glenn tour headed to nearby bathroom to wash his eye out before discovering a more pressing concern. He was bleeding profusely from many different parts of his body rather than wait for help to arrive. He hobbled down five flights of stairs. He recalled in a nineteen seventy seven book on the attack thinking that point. I'm in pain ROY annoyed headed across he'll house avenue to University Health services. Had he waited he likely would have bled to death. Doctors told him there. When he arrived at the clinic galernter had a blood pressure. Reading of zero FBI agents later found one of his shoes in his office where shrapnel. Slice through. Metal filing cabinets found his bloodied shirts. Thrown onto the staircase. The bomb it severely wounded his abdomen. Chest face and hand, the learner would never recover the use of his right hand. Why was he targeted? He was also featured in a recent New York Times article, and he was technological innovator. How dare he make computer? Advancements. Glacier is a pioneer in the field of parallel computation, a type of computing, which many calculators are carried out simultaneously the programming language. He developed in the nineteen eighties. Kalinda made it possible to link together several small computers into a supercomputer significantly increasing the amount and complexity of data that computers can process a year and a half later December tenth nineteen Ninety-four. Fifty year old advertising executive Thomas Mosser becomes the next unit. Bomber fatality. Mosser? Was a navy vet who served in Vietnam just nine days. Earlier Mosser had received a huge promotion becoming the general manager of young and Rubicam. Giant worldwide advertising communications company based in New York. Clients included Philip Morris, the second largest advertiser in the nation at the time. He lived in a hilly coal to sack north call wilbon jersey with his wife, Susan, his daughters, Kim, thirteen and Kelly fifteen months he also had two other adult children from previous marriage after the explosion neighbor said it was incredibly lucky that a bunch of other people most of them children. Didn't also die weren't killed by the bomb. A neighbor had thrown a party tonight before Mostra opened his package bomb. Several children had wandered over from the party to the Mosser's house at one point and the bomb. This wife had signed for but not opened which is sitting on the dining room table. With about a half dozen kids sitting around at one point Thomas was killed instantly. When he opened the package at eleven AM on Saturday morning. The blast blew out all the windows of the dining room was well, tended figured out. How to make a really powerful bomb by now. Ted Kaczynski would later write letter to the New York Times saying he blew up Thomas Mosser because Thomas helped Exxon clean up. Public image after the Exxon Valdez Valdez oil, spill environmental disaster and more importantly because his business is the development of techniques from nip heating people's attitudes. Obedience Thomas was pushing obedience in the system he was an addict zek an all marketers deserve to die is what Ted singing unable twenty nine seventy five California Forestry Association, president Gilbert p Murray becomes the third and final fatality of Unibond explosion. And the first who was not the intended target the package unit bomber had sent addressed to William Denison. The man who served as president and chief executive officer of the chief executive officer of the California Forestry Association from nineteen eighty to nineteen ninety four this is a man who is a highly visible figure in a number of contentious environmental issues. Mr. Denison was a key player for the timber industry who fought against environmentalists on behalf of loggers. He wanted to open up more land specifically in the north west to be logged. And that didn't sit well with Ted Gilbert Murray was denizens replacement and fifty two year old Ted didn't bother doing his homework to find out that fact before sending out a lethal package bomb. The explosion in the association's reception area knocked doors off their hinges blew out, ceiling tiles, shattered glass, partitions inside the seventy five hundred square foot office, five other employees who were present at the time of the blast escaped unharmed, and then in June of nineteen ninety-five Unabomber sends out that thirty five thousand word manifesto to the Washington Post and the New York Times the one they initially do not publish then on June twenty eighth nineteen ninety-five ten. Tencent. Ted sends a letter to the San Francisco Chronicle threatening attack on a flight at of Los Angeles. It says warning the terrorist group f c called Unabomber by the B is planning to blow up an airliner out of Los Angeles International airport sometime during the next six days to prove that the writer of this let her know something about FC the first two digits of their identifying number five five. The next day. A letter arrived the New York Times saying that his throat was a prank saying since the public has a short memory. We decided to play one last prank to remind them who we are. But no, we haven't tried to plant a bomb on an airline recently. So he just you know, he just anarchist. Just sending out we're shit three months later on September nineteenth nineteen ninety-five Washington Post, New York Times, do publish that. Yuna bomber manifesto and it leads directly days arrest. What's insane? To me is that when the manifesto was published it's widely praised by academics. Journalists and intellectuals. It was described as logical thoughtful convincing an artfully written most readers, do not doubt Ted sanity or intelligence, and this praise will bring us into today's unique idiots of the internet right after a word from today's final sponsor time up is brought to you by longtime supporter champion of knowledge favourite of Nimrod, the great courses. Plus, I know you take a lot of joy learning as much as you can about. The world is I do. That's why I want you to check out the great courses. Plus this online learning service gives you unlimited access to thousands of video and audio lectures. Learn about virtually anything from fascinating engaging experts who are so passionate about their subjects like history science psychology, literature, even martial arts, man. I learned some of that for Todd graffiti joined some some great new mini, lectures, they have right. 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Suck so sign up. Now at the great courses plus dot com slash time. Suck Lincoln the episode description sponsor leak button on the time so app, which just got updated. Lots new fixes now. Now time for today's idiots of the internet. The internet. All right for today's it until the internet switch it up a little bit knock on YouTube when over to Amazon and just checked out some of the re the user reviews of Ted's manifesto, which you can buy there. You can buy the paperback version of the union bomber manifesto for ten bucks. Forty nine customer reviews of this particular dish four point four out of five star ratings, right? Four point four to five a three eighty right now, a customer Alicia gives it five out of five stars as most do writing only extreme liberals and conservatives will not agree with this book, the few objective, balanced, Americans left in America will agree. However, you must have a good concrete knowledge of human history, culture, psychosocial behavior and have read this Topi novels to understand if not you're screwed stay scrolling for the next camp out date at best buy for the latest. Apple, computer. You can't pay cash. People also need to have an understanding of the genius thinking and inability to function socially, if you are a full grown adult who owns or has owned. A home pays lots of taxes has children in pays for the useless crap saves for their college not really education pays two thousand dollars for a family medical plan with deductible of five thousand dollars. You don't sleep. You don't vacation you barely eat. You can't save your old age, then you will feel that you will fully feel and understand this book by it. And don't judge what has been said about this, man? The media is the anti Christ that perpetuates hate and ignorance. Okay. I am. I am sure as hell not an extreme liberal. Maybe I'm conservative. Maybe maybe that's why it doesn't make sense to me. I'm conservative on some issues like crime punishment military. Most fiscal matters super liberal on social issues. Do you have a concrete understanding of human history leash you, I don't think he'd do your typical historical revisionist? Most people seem to be you don't see the past for what it actually was. You see it for what you want to be. And you get swept up in this fucking dystopia. Andy reid. What George Orwell's nineteen Eighty-four eldest Huxley's brave new world. Do you think that's inevitable because technology? Yeah. It does it suck to have have to work. Lots of hours to still not be able to afford a college education or be able to retire or to own a home or to have medical insurance for your. Yeah. It does suck. But way, back when way back before the industrial revolution way back before technology fucking, no one had insurance. You know, why? Because they didn't have any fucking doctors. They just died all the time horrible deaths. Some people having access to modern medicine is still way better than no-one having any any medical knowledge whatsoever. Can we improve things? Yeah. Whole bunch of hope we do. I think it's very possible. But are things worse because of technology industry. Fuck. No. That is ridiculous asinine notion. People didn't worry about saving for retirement in the olden days because most people never ever retired. They worked until they died or until their family took care of their cripple geriatric ass. People retire at forty five or fifty five or sixty five in the olden days and head NAFTA going to Carnival Cruise or. Snow burden Florida or Arizona for the winter. Now, they're pioneers living off the land. You know, they didn't get to stop hunting and gardening and damn near freezing death. Every winter when they hit sixty five now, he's still to work harder. Now, what their us rightous the couldn't be fucking treated because there's no doctor. It was different kind of work. They won't work in a factory, but they were still working and arguably possibly harder, right? They still split firewood stone to plant crops, so I had to kill and cook their food. But you don't think that's work. Have you ever lived off the land aleisha? I highly fucking doubt it. I bet you'd have to be begging to have some technology back if you had to do it for one week, but you'd be crying like a baby will people ever stop turning the past into some nonsensical? Utopian fantasy drives me fucking crazy user Leah gives it five stars and posts. Excellent in amazing, intellectual perspective and forecast of today's society, and again, just rock music weird thing to say like people realize that just by using an. Zahn. They're part of the machine that had hated right? Ted would never buy this book off Amazon, and then leave a review for other people to read on their technological devices. So weird to me, you know, like, someone writes a book, that's the messages fucked technology stay away from it full computers, and then people go on their computer and read it and then type in positive reviews. He's right. We don't need computers. Well, user, a jelly gatty gives it five stars and writes, one of the greatest book that I've ever read which I just find funny because he spilled the color red not the word that not having read something kind of kind of just detracts from your literary review clout when you know, what spell read correctly user, amaafuza cracks me up with the four star rating writing exactly as advertised, but dot dot dot, why the hell did I buy this, exactly? You can read the entire thing on the internet for free, by the way. If you're listening to your big unit number fam-, don't or you know bomber fan. You don't have to buy it. There's PDF's of the entire thing in its written as you know, as it was published for free. It's all over the place user, Richard Zachary writes, in a way that makes me think he may have one of the most punishable faces on the planet, this pretentious. Son of a bitch is what he writes back. When Kaczynski's manifesto was thrust rather literally into the limelight. Read the first six years. Seventy of its numbered paragraphs with unallocated admiration in agreement having rambled back to his precincts, by way of some obliquely related research. I have just read his apology. Oh, ProVia soi in its entirety. Rereading the proportions rereading the portions I peruse previously notwithstanding. The copyright restrictions placed upon his dissemination through Wikipedia. There are no shortage of facilities to be found on the internet alas. I would have feigned purchased his manifesto food nine dollars advertised on Amazon dot com. Were there any likelihood that some portion of the proceeds would find its way into TK's prison deposit account, the prospect of enriching the likes of David Gell, his name galernter in propia persona or by way of some handpicked charity with a few of my hard-earned shekels is viscerally unpleasant. TK's manifesto is sustained Hegley and exercise diagnostic analysis concerning progressive tendencies modern societies it which the aboriginal encounter. Enter with an untamed wilderness and the establishment of settlements in its midst or but quaint memories preserved in archives. Don't use just fodder for entertainment, the manifesto articulates progressive line of logic proceeding from general observations in first principles toward the formulation. Of course of action that might arrest if dot reverse a widespread were steam Malays that is routinely decried by commentators without a semblance of an impulse to do something about it though. It may be abysmally unrealistic to undertake to change the world unless someone has the gumption to take the first step the waters will continue to heat without disturbing the complacent Infineon's in cover ever, comfortable bath TK was just fucking does TK was one of those individuals to whom talk is not cheap nor radicalism of the cost it and tenure variety that relegates the question of implementation to soapbox plus train or news pedal soundbites haltingly with crude materials and fitful illumination as could be gleaned from a hermit's shack. But Neath a grid of power and prestige. He made a fund. Mentally, accurate diagnosis and undertook to implement a remedy commencing with stutter steps in the hope that others would follow safely imprisoned in a maximum security prison for the rest of his use mealy mouth careerist swine who prattle about revolutionary commitment. Like gibbon expatiates about love licensed to roll their eyes at his example. Fuck. I do Rome is that you Dickie's e God. But you hang out like fucking poetry nights. And just like roll your eyes. There's just never go. Oh mobile Kogler is far as the periods. Well, this Lou you right in the most punishable way, there's no chance you and I get along. I always hated people who go out of their way to show off. Just how intelligent the are these obscure intellectual references, you know, archaic vocabulary choices we can't fuck face. You aced English lit. I imagine dick Zachary's pretentious independent bookstore record shop employee. Right. Some with about as many friends as Ted had someone for -pecially disgusted that their customers. Don't have the same obscure eclectic encouraged Fistican superior tastes your intelligent, academically. But like Ted also come to cross a come across to me is a fucking fool when it comes to pragmatic intelligence careerist swine. Oh, yeah. God forbid anyone tried to increase the numbers on the paycheck provide a better life for their. Families. And yet you reference your hard earned shekels like an asshole. So clearly you work. So what it's okay to work, but not to get paid past a certain dollar amounts. Fucking dumb communist. If you don't wanna make money when you work you probably get Kim Jong UN to take over North Korea. If you tried hard enough, you know, and you'd rather give to the Yuna bomber himself than to a charity. You fucking piece of shit you'd Meyer, Ted so much. Don't you get off Amazon sell your computer, go build your cabin? Be a well read, lunatic and expansive vocabulary eco terrorist leanings. See how far that gets you. See how many Montana winters, you can make it through a shed with no running water or trysofi, I'm guessing about I don't know zero guess in a you. And what's her name Alicia A get along great together YouTube could just sit in a coffee shop and just drink some lots as in talk about he despised the world, finally, right? When I was starting to think I was the crazy one for an understanding test genius customer past master two thousand fourteen. Crushes it with his comment giving the manifesto five stars. But leaving the following review by purchases book with my four g smartphone for my smart share with five massage sheddings heated ventilated pockets in the comfort of my house said it was smart technology that allows me to dim my light to raise the temperature by using my voice. My son rules bind his hover board while using his Oculus to play a game about hover boarding. My wife is taking a livestream spinning class her three thousand dollar bike wall. Talking on her hands free bluetooth device to a friend in the class or daughter left are WI fi enabled refrigerator door open. And it just texted television to let us know needs close. Life is great Ted. You had it all wrong fucking love it. Love the sarcasm. Pastor. I agree. I love technology or send the poli- deploying dynamite song. So love technology, or you know. Yes, you love technology. But as much as me, you see always and forever is an forever. Time suck not possible without it. So thank you, scientists Okay. Ted. The internet. All right. So back to the fall of nineteen ninety-five manifesto has been published. The FBI still does not know who is they looking for that, stinky, no GIO tour using dirty bearded wild eyed maniac of nineteen seventy nine the FBI. Hope that publishing a manifesto would lead someone to recognize the writing style realize it was someone they knew the offered a million dollar reward. Started receiving over a thousand phone calls a day thousands and thousands of suspects or looked out. None of those initial leads go anywhere, but the publication is leading to Ted's arrest. Ted sister-in-law, Linda, Patrice already suspicious of Ted based on the few times, they had interactions over the years based on what her husband Ted's, brother, David had told her, you know, like a about Ted, then the manifesto was published and she really becomes suspicious and encourages David to read it after she us. And when he does he knows it's Ted despite becoming more and more strange over the years. David still owed is big brother. He anguish for months over if he should Khan. Tacked authorities or not eventually David Linda hired attorney than they also hire a private investigator Susan Swanson to look into Ted Swanson ends up presenting her findings to the FBI. David also gets additional findings of the FBI gives them the FBI some letters Ted at sent him over the years the evidence and the letters given to former FBI hostage negotiator and criminal profiler. Clinton. Clinton are vans vans aunt in an early nineteen Ninety-six after looking everything over with an F B I team of analysts. He concluded that there was at least sixty percent chance that Ted is the Unabomber the FBI asked him to look over the results again with the second team. He does. So they're even more certain the Ted is there man and then on April third nineteen Ninety-six FBI agents who have obtained a search warrant raid the union bombers cabin they arrest. Head in the door was cabin the handcuffs. They used now. Reside in this Massoni, national postal Ziam. The United States postal service did play significant role in investigating Kozinski series of mail bombs inside the cabin. They find bomb. Making materials alive bomb ready for mailing. The original manifesto manuscript and forty thousand pages of journals forty thousand pages of journals recording because Inskeep daily life is bombing campaign and his overall anger at society days after his arrest. A federal grand jury indicts Kaczynski and on ten counts of illegally transporting mailing and using bombs and on three counts of murder Kozinski is put on trial in federal court in Sacramento in late nineteen Ninety-seven. The government is seeking the death penalty David and their mom and him and he intends mother Wanda come to court each day. But Ted this was such a cruel detail sitting too few feet away from them never once acknowledged him. Not ever not one time when they came to courtroom never like a kind Lance is demeanor. In court was po- polite. Attentive Kalman cold, the shaggy hermit whose picture had been broadcast around the world. Now looked kind of like a mild professor a jury jury was selected, but the trial never actually started Kaczynski. Got locked in a procedural battle with his lawyers and the prosecutors and ultimately the judge about his defense. His court appointed lawyers believed his best chance of getting the death penalty was to plead not guilty by reason of insanity because Inskeep adamantly did not want to be labeled mentally ill. That was going against his revolution. I would just credit. He tried to fire his lawyers in favor of a private attorney willing to let him risk execution to present his case that it was a political argument. His case would be built around his manifesto. You know, he who just explained why his actions were necessary. The judge denied the change of council. A psychiatric evaluation ordered by the court did diagnose because his paranoid schizophrenic because Inskeep asked to represent himself. The judge denied this unable to get what he wanted which was more attention and publicity for his manifesto. He pleaded guilty rather than to hear himself represented as his trial as insane Razan saying on may fourth nineteen ninety eight because then ski received four life sentences. He later tried to withdraw this plea. Arguing it was involuntary, but judge garland Burrell junior denied this request and the United States court of appeals for the ninth circuit upheld. The judge decision in two thousand six Burrell ordered the items from Kaczynski's cabin to be sold at a reasonably advertise internet auction with the proceeds going to the victims of his attacks. The auction raised two hundred and thirty two thousand dollars Kaczynski today is seventy six years old and living in a super max prison in Florence Colorado. He remains a prolific writer corresponding in longhand with hundreds and hundreds of people producing essays in books technological slavery a collection of some of his writings was published in two thousand ten currently. It has a four star rating lot five-star reviews Tyler Patterson loved it. Right in the subject line of the book that points out the cause of all our problems, and then leaving a review of seriously, my favorite book of all time, while technology claims to be the solution to all of our problems is in fact, the cause of all of our problems amazing book. Okay. And again leaving out on Amazon. All right. Yeah. You hate technology. But they're your inner report for the fiftieth reunion of his class at Harvard in two thousand twelve because Inskeep gave his occupation. You actually responded. Wrote down. There's occupation was prisoner and under awards he listed his four life sentences. His mother Wanda Roteta letter every month before she died in two thousand eleven despite corresponding from prison with hundreds of strangers. He never responded wants to her. His brother David still sends Ted's letters on holidays and Ted has yet to respond to him either. And that takes us out of today's time suck timeline. Good job soldier made it back, man. So that's Ted, man. Very smart, man. And a very dumb man a lot of people seem to be huge fancy hits. But in my opinion, everyone I can find online that you know, axes if they're big fan just seemed to be fucking phonies. And I know that because they're online, right? They're not leaving comments. Like, hey came to the library lead his comment, real quick. But in the woods past two years just want everyone to know. Ted was right Mimi by mount Shasta, if you want to join the revolution. It's better out here. No, you know, I get thinking that Ted has some good points. It has manifesto. I agree with some of his points. You know, actually, another Amazon reviewer did some of my thoughts about Ted perfectly customer. Andrew Maynard gave his manifesto a one star review just a few weeks ago with a subject line of narrow minded and uninformed thinking masquerading as genius. And then he wrote this is an essay that some people find easy to read selectively cherry picking the passages that confirm their own beliefs and ideas while conveniently ignoring others. Yet taken as a whole because he's manifesto is a poorly informed rant against what he refers to pejoratively as left as in a naive justification for reverting to a more primitive society where individuals had what he believed was more agency over how they lived even if this meant living in poverty and disease. Exactly, Andrew exactly sure he makes some good points. Not good to only live on your phone nugget to have your face and your phone all the time, not good to lose touch with nature. However technology is also fucking awesome. Like, if you really think was totally right. Why are you listen to podcasts? Right, especially from destroy computer. You know, start saving us from Kevin money. Do it tho find some cheap land, you can still find cheap planned on the country feel care where it is long as it's just remote. If you look we'll do anymore because lands too expensive knows not. I just looked quickly late last night before recording. This. I looked up a, you know, a land listing just around where I live found a listing for one point five acres near Sandpoint Idaho about an hour. North suck dungeon this. This land on the water. Right. Not in a lake but on the river listened for nineteen thousand dollars. I bet you could probably get it for fifteen thousand if you pay cash, right? There's all kinds of land for auction as well around around where I live. You know, if you could get your hands on five ten grand cash, you could buy in the right spot a couple of acres outright own it. Are you pay next nothing and property taxes each year, you can build a shack at old tires and fucking wood scraps and dead raccoons? You get acts hunt rivals bullets. Maybe some corn meal and flour sack sugar some cast iron cookware, maybe maybe watch YouTube video before you take off about how to build a teepee. Maybe just living in a tent. Bring much blankets out there. Make sure to keep the campfire burning all winter long. Just luck. Get after it. Go live that survivalist left. Yeah. Huff. Oh. Duck folk by by TV by computers, Audio's phone think about a gas power generators anything that runs on batteries, etc. No doctors, no dentists, either don't cheat. They use technology to cure people. You're better than that. Right. Figuring. Which which leaves the boil what to drink if you get a sinus infection figure out what berries to chew on when you get dangerously dehydrated from violent diarrhea figure out what type of mud is best to to rub on a broken bone. And that doesn't sound good. Well, maybe not such a big fan of Ted after all, maybe you're fucking kidding yourself. I'm not a big fan. Do not care for the guy is in prison time now for top five takeaways. Away. Number one, Ted Kaczynski was born in Chicago and nine hundred forty two one undergraduate from Harvard get his doctorate at the university of Michigan. Become the youngest associate professor of mathematics at the university of California Berkeley age twenty twenty-five skeeve me twenty five of that before the age of thirty building the cabinet in the remote remote wilderness, Montana, transitioning into an eco terrorist. Hell bent on destroying America's techno industrial system. Number two between nine hundred seventy eight and nineteen ninety-five. Ted Kaczynski would either male or personally drop off numerous homemade explosives that would injure a total of twenty three people and kill three others. Number three. The nickname of Utah bomber came from Unum. And that's you be OM. The task force the FBI setup to catch Kaczynski Unibond stood for university and airline bomber. Because that was where the first attacks took place took the FBI almost eighteen years to catch him. Number four. The Unabomber was brought down by his own manifest. Still a love it after the Washington Post. New York Times published it in nineteen ninety-five sister-in-law brother recognized the righty and ideals as belonging to Ted and help the FBI capture him a number five, new info Ted's brother, David David Kaczynski, did get the million dollar reward for information leading to the capture of the uniform, but he didn't keep it Hugh, some for his brother Ted's legal fees, some for taxes on having, you know, being given the money and all of the rest was used to establish a special victims fund for for, you know, Ted's victims to bomb fund to benefit victims of violent crimes committed by paranoid schizophrenics, including Ted victims. I guess it was open to a few more people in the seven states in which the Unabomber struck. So having kind of cool having a dirtbag brother doesn't mean you have to be dirtbag to hail Nimrod. You can't pick your family could chop David way to make a little lemonade out of those Yuna bomber limits. Tie. Thai by taking away. Yuna bomber has been sucked. Ted didn't want his his nature. Messed with didn't want any neighbors. Didn't like the sounds of dogs barking should've picked Lasca said a Montana and Waco away on the Bush high Coutts set up camp never come back. Good riddance. Good luck out there. No one's gonna miss the kind of person that wants to pay off their loan. Don't get me wrong. I love nature, man. I live around a lot of great nature camp. Every year. When I do I bring my phone. Let's the satellite radio from truck. He's my truck to plugging things to blow air mattresses and such. You know, you you you can't mix technology nature. It's possible. They can co-exist you took away too far Ted. You just didn't like people. That's the truth. You just didn't fucking like people, and they didn't like you. I get thank you to the times on team. Thanks to the Queen the suck. Lindsey comments high priestess, the suck harmony village camp. Jesse guardian of grammar dober-, Reverend Dr paisley times, look, high priest Alex Dugan. The guys at Biddle extra danger brain access apparel. And thanks again to Heather knowledge ninja Rylander kicking off the research this week next week we stick with true crime. But we look different kind of case. And we've looked at really kinda here before in time. So Casey Anthony, remember that trial such a famous trial on October fourteen thousand eight Casey Anthony was indicted by a grand jury on charges of first degree murder aggravated child abuse aggravated manslaughter of a child four counts of providing false information to police. All relating to the death of a young daughter. Kaley. Kaley was a little girl bets turned three when she disappeared. Family was living in Orlando, Florida case, we lived with her mother. I'm sorry case, we live with her her parents the little girl's maternal, grandparents, George and Cindy, Anthony and on July fifteenth two thousand eighteen or two dozen eight skews me she was reported missing in an idol nine one one call made by Cindy who said she had not seen. Kaley for thirty one days. This is so weird. Right. She this apparently this little girls living with her mom and grandparents and then grandma says, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I just realized I didn't see my granddaughter in thirty one fucking days shell sa- says that her daughter Casey's car smelled like a dead body had been incited Cindy says Casey had given varied explanations as to katie's whereabouts before finally telling her that she hadn't seen Kelly for weeks super weird Casey lies to detectives telling them that Kaley had been kidnapped by Nannu on June ninth. And that she'd been trying to find her, but she was just too frightened to alert. Authorities prosecutors sought the death penalty, and when she was found not guilty. America was shocked at the most shocked that it'd probably been over verdict since the OJ Simpson trial. A what do experts think happened to Kaley? What what what kind of parent doesn't report their daughter missing to the police? It's so fucked shady do most people still think that Casey killed her daughter. Do I think she did did someone else in her family have something to do with Kelly's death? It is a fascinating case. This would have happened. This will be like a making a murderer type case type docu series on Netflix. If this happened recently, and I don't know a lot about it. But I wanna learn so learn with me next Monday. And now learn from your fellow time suckers with some time sucker updates. In times. All right little notes about today's updates. They don't reflect anything for the previous week show due to my travel schedule in order to make sure we got this suck on YouTube is important to me to keep a fucking schedule like sexual. I had to request episode before last week suck even came out by so the so the Pedro Lopez. I don't know what people are saying about it. I up date going way back to the gun control episode. Very interesting Christian perspective coming in. I thought I should share from Christian time sucker Noah heap ner, no rights, excuse me. Hello master sucker. I just got in time about a month ago. I'm now up to bonus twenty you mentioned a question regarding your previous episode about gun control. You mentioned wondering where the desire to kill more is coming from and in my opinion, as well as many other people from a Christian background, it appears that it comes from an increased belief in Evelyn as more people believe in evolution ever. So slowly, especially in the mind of crazy, people our lives are suddenly worth no more than the life for a fish or a bug. This is also not helped by the vegan belief vegan beliefs that say we should not harm animals because they have souls to which they do not nor conscience therefore, they are on the same level as us. So if people can kill a deer or any other animal, and there is a human is the same thing. It's sad. And it may not and it may seem put there to you. But it's very real and very terrifying. Possibility I hope to talk to you more about such things or things such as this in the future and plan on buying a secret suck or secret spaces or subscription as soon as I'm caught up on regular episodes. Thank you, Dan. Love the suck. Well, thank you. I appreciate your perspective. It's interesting. I am someone who does believe in evolution. And honestly, I probably do have a little less respect for the sanctity of human life overall. The someone like yourself a not not joking. I believe that though that that volition could be compatible with some type of cosmic creative force or being though, I think that's actually probable, my me personally, some type of God if you will just don't know what that is. Anyway, I could see how a lack of fear over divine retribution and a lack of belief in God entity that specifically is commanded you to to not kill you know, that knob believe that could lead to more death. However, I was thinking like a fair amount of people who who kill. Also kill in a misguided belief that they're serving God. So really, I guess to figure out the answer this question. We we need to see like some new mass shooting stats how many mass shooters identified as eight Theus compared to how many mass shooters are religious. If you can find that data anybody send it in. I really would be curious is it kind of evenly split or is it kind of waited to one site. And thanks, no. For making me think about that. Now, we have the announcement of a new suck baby coming in from time sucker, Peter or dos. Peer writes, dear grand, poobah sucker and chic to all who suck and your name. The Nonni come Lingus. I loved your stand up since day one. And during the time that time of shown my wife, your material. She shares your hatred for all the inconsiderate people or inconsideration people can show. Yes. Good. And the hope that we can as a society do better. I like her my wife Kelly or does was the one who discovered your podcast back when it was still in its infancy, and it's been a devout sucker ever since. All thanks, Kelli. You weekly podcast brought us great entertainment where we will. Listen and pas your show to have intellectual conversations between ourselves fucking love that where we dive deep into what we both think before hitting plaguing. That's oh, I love that so much. It's probably endless joy to know someone. So inside a now, and I can say your weekly investigation into the weirdest shit. I've ever heard of is partly to blame. I I've one request ask if you my wife is pregnant with our first child. Congratulations. And we couldn't be happier. It will be the greatest honor. If you could store our first bond with the blessing from Nimrod to be strong, and every curious of the world and for the great bojangles to keep an ever watchful eye over our child. Thank you for all that you do and know that my wife is losing her shit. Hit if you are reading this during your podcast and surly, Peter or while hope you lost your shit Kelly. It's awesome. Peter, congratulations. I mean, Nimrod bless your sweet baby. Mabel, jingles protect its may you and Kelly raise this baby. Endlessly curious to not be afraid to dig deep into any issue to be willing to admit when you're wrong adapt. New information to treat others with respect until they cross the line ignorance and push harmful agendas. And then maye your little one be brave enough not to follow those agendas, and maybe call them out on it. And may loose FINA show, a little later, the later, you know, and and show your little one, they're no longer a little one have a good fucking time on this meat sack bio dome of hours. Thank you so much for for sending that in now. Now, we're need a little heavier for the end of this this. This is first anonymous pedophile island update so road and saying, dear master sucker. I was listening to the pedal island suck. And dolphins. Was finally a good time to let you in on a slightly different perspective on people who are now considered sex offenders. I asked you keep an open mind, but please, no. That. I'm definitely not a pedophile myself, nor have I done anything. That's come remotely close to assaulting anyone. I was married. Young to women who is of the belief that all porn was cheating. So I kept it away from her while we were together a few years ago we separated and I found myself single for the first time since two thousand two I started looking at porn again. But it'd been a long time since I last done. So I wasn't super familiar with the streaming options these days, so I was using a file sharing program to get my jollies the program. I used didn't let you see any thumbnails of anything. You were getting crazy long file names that may or may not be accurate as to what you're getting. That's terrifying. Anybody listening do not fucking ever use something like this truly never ever do this. You can't see the video until it's totally downloaded. Yeah. Never do. This think similar to old school Napster days at one point one of the I downloaded apparently had someone underage in it to my extra more, of course, I instantly deleted it. Cancel all my other downloads fast. Four to few months later. I got a call my girlfriend living with apparently to police redder house and. Escaping. My computer in any hard drives. I had around the house. They had been running a sting on that particular service looking for downloads of certain files, I had the bad luck of getting caught in that web. At that time they happen to be doing that. Of course, when you actually down something there's no way to report it so you don't get into trouble. I spent the weekend in jail until I could get bailed out and took over a year before my case went to trial after a lot of talking to my lawyer about options. My best solution was to essentially plea. No contest that would end with no jail time. If it went to trial, I would have to convince a jury that it was a one time accident, but at the prosecution decided to describe what was in the file it would definitely taint the opinion of the jury a major uphill struggle. That wrist me going to prison for twenty years the day after I'd gotten bailed out of jail, my girlfriend had given birth to our twin babies, so I didn't want to spend their entire childhood behind bars. Now, I'm required to register as a sex offender and reregister every six months in my state once you're classified as a sex offender, you are one for life. My reason for saying all of this is that there are some of us who out there who are on. Offender registry for things that were at least in some way beyond our control. And if you look at my list, and it says sexual exploitation of a minor even though I never had the slightest contact with anyone in my situation I beyond despise those to her children, and then includes those who simply download videos or pictures of them in sexual situations. But it sucks to be lumped in with them now for life. I just asked that people please consider my situation when hearing someone is now a sex offender, if you read this on air at all asks you please leave my name out mostly for the safety of those around me. Thank you for hearing me out. Okay. So yeah, totally anonymous this is tough. This is tough. I do believe a mistake like that could happen that could theoretically happen. I absolutely believe that and I believed that there other ways a person could end up on a sex offender registry. Like, this is a story. I found about a kidney Zack Anderson Zach was arrested for having sex with a girl. He met on a dating app called hot or not this claim. She was seventeen years old. She admitted to police that she lied about her age after he was arrested later, she really was fourteen at the time. With their sexual encounter. Her mother found out about the sexual encounter effort happened. She goes police, then when she found out that her daughter did lie about her age her daughter did look older she and her daughter both testified on Zack's behalf to try to have him. Not get in trouble. But the wheels have been set in motion Zack eventually pled guilty to fourth degree criminal sexual conduct and has to register under the terms of his deal in his state as a sex offender for the next twenty five years, very different situation than some dude molesting an eight year old girl or several family members or some creep rape and a stranger in a park still had to still has to register the same get on the same list. I think it would be helpful to have sex offender registries provide much more detailed explanations of the offenders offenses like some type of summary of what they did rather than just a vague definition of the charge. They were found guilty of which you know, I do watch the list for, you know, around where I live in his pretty vague. He's like a mugshot and then the actual crimes and the dates. I'm sorry. Not the not the actual like what they were charged with just kind of like a definition of where their crime would fall like an umbrella kind of definition of the crime would fall under. It would be nice. If it was way more specific. So you knew much more because it can vary quite a bit. So I feel terrible for you. If this was truly just an accident. Absolutely. We need to differentiate between truly violent pedophile 's and violence sex offenders, and others the may have fallen under a technicality that's unfair to parents and the public not to know and also unfair to the guilty party. Yeah. And again, I know porn is so prevalent. I've no judgments about porn never fucking open. Anything never do any weird file sharing things. Never go to the dark web for anything. Nev- never Google anything. That's questionable. Never, you know, Google like naked young girl. Like nothing like that stay away from all of that. There is plenty of very legal porn on the internet. You porn dot com. You know, there's porn you can buy from adult. Stores like you do not need to risk anything never ever ever ever ever do that. Here's another. Anonymous message regarding the pedophile island suck. Hello master suck been listening to podcast and your stand up for a long time. Now. However, this is my first time writing in I am currently uniquely sucky position. And the pedophile island suck hit close to home. My family owns a gymnastics center where we teach kids of all ages. It has recently come to our attention that one of the older kids in his teens who is an active member in the gym is currently being investigated for molesting a younger child who also comes to the gym. We only learned about this after being told by the younger child's mother because the accused is still legally child and the investigation is still ongoing. We are obligated to protect the older child's rights. This means we cannot mention anything to other parents or changed the way we treat him. It really is a shock to have someone that you know, so well to have pasta possibly done. This is even harder to not treat him any differently. Especially when he's in our gym so often, which has so many young children, even if there was a chance at the accusations are. Not true uncomfortable. Knowing his access to so many small children, and we can't do anything about it. I was curious during the episode about how common child on child sexual abuse occurs, especially since you mentioned that perr affiliates. Stay with the person for their entire life after digging around a bit. I've found up to forty percents of children who were sexually abused or abused by older bigger kids. I also found that with help the recidivism rate for children with problematic sexual behaviors fairly low hard to find any concrete data as most of these are on a dolts. But one study conducted by the university of Oklahoma showed a recidivism rate of only two percent. Thank you so much for reading this. If you get this far, I mean, he's been on the story for the super long message. This particular episode was very impactful for me like I said before gymnastics instructor I get to help kids. It's a pleasure to work with them. But do magin their innocence being ripped apart for someone else's amusement. Or pleasure makes me heart makes my heart break keep doing what you're doing. Hold the suck never stops. Thank you, not sucker. Hope suck goes. Well for a long time too long to the suck. Appreciate you sending me the risk. Stats for children who have some type of pedophilia, Tennessee or some other form of deviant sexuality. Yes. It does seem if you catch it early during the development years when the brain is still malleable that it can be treated much more effectively. This is great information to share because I'm all for carrying pedophilia and other dangerous sexual attractions possible, that's best case scenario, and your message brings us to our final update very personal disclosure. I encourage all of you to really hear this one out. It's a tough one. But it's important want to think about another. Anonymous update says hey, Dan, I wanted to reach out state. Thank you. Thanks for your most recent time, suck it struck a chord with me for very obvious reasons. I was actually diagnosed with pedophilia when I was a teenager. Luckily, I had parents that were very much involved with psychology academically. And so they realized that in order for me to never hurt myself or anyone else. Anyway, they needed to get help. I've been in therapy since I was eleven and I'm about to turn thirty four. Thanks to therapy. I've never broken any laws or anyone only my closest friends and family. No. But it's true. Being able to talk about these unnatural thoughts help steer one away from press. Seeing them repression leads to outbursts that are attempts to purge the fixation. It's also important tell people that it's not my fault. It's literally how I was born no sexual abuse in my past of any kind. It's just how my brain works much like having a favorite color. You don't really know. Why you just like what you like thankfully being able to speak about it in therapy. And then openly with my friends and family is allowed to accept this dark side of myself in a way that makes it basically a non issue, I'm never afraid of actually being tempted to do something because I never get to that point. Because I can talk about it anytime, I need to my sessions with my therapist, my friends, and my family, the amount of love and support and understanding that I have has not cured me. But it has eliminated the possible threat. I could possibly one day post a society had I not had it the point. I'm making is simple. We as a society need to talk about this out loud in the open without hater violence only. Then do we stand a chance it substantially decrease in altogether altogether? Eliminating the scourge of violence being committed against our world's children. I am here alive. Real and admitting. I suffer from pedophilia. And yet I have never harmed a child or broke a single law, and that's only been possible because of the love and support I've had from my family and most importantly, the intervention of qualified licensed, professional, an active participation and consistent therapeutic treatment it works. I'm living proof, obviously like to remain anonymous. But I tried to kill myself when I'm sixteen I almost succeeded if it hadn't been for the quick actions of my mother and sister performing CPR, I wouldn't be here today. And I just be another statistic. There are others out there like me, maybe still teens themselves. Listen to your podcast, please. Keep doing what you're doing read. This like read this. If you like so they can know that there is a way out there are suicide hotlines who can help point them in the direction of therapy. They need to save the life and keep them from harming others. This is in fact disorder which means it's treatable not curable, but treatable talking about it as much as I have in my personal life is what has kept me from being a danger to myself or others. Thanks to the therapy. That impulses only as loud in my mind is a distant echo of an echo muffled by the love and words of encouragement from my loved ones, this disorder is an evil thing. And I feel you can only counter evil with love. And for me. It's worked I understand if you blocked me after this and refuse to read this. I get it your parents as a my so I get it. I'm glad I got the therapy. I needed. It's made me the father. I am today to my son. I can also spot the ones who are like me a mile away. They're everywhere. And I say because I don't count myself as one of them. I am not a pedophile. I'm a person who suffers from the mental disorder known. Pedophilia. Keep on sucking suck master. I will always be a proud Mead sack. Even if I'm no longer. Welcome to be one HALE Nimrod praise bojangles all praise to lose FINA. Thank you, Dan. You have no idea. Just how much good your podcast might do anonymous. Wow. Wow. Anonymous time so you, and I've already corresponded back and forth. So you so I know, you know, this. But of course, you're still welcoming the Colton curious your messages inspiring that with consistent therapy. You can conquer certain urges. And I'm guessing we all have certain or just maybe not necessarily sexual do something bad steal to hurt verbally berated cetera. Most of us can control them when we want. I want to bash strangers heads in some days, but I don't do it. If there really is a way to never ever act on it, then yes, great shouldn't be punished essentially for thoughts and talking about health. We should talk about it as long as we agree that acting on it, even one time is unacceptable and should result in some sort of social banishment life imprisonment sent to an island or worse because with this disorder. Unlike with many other disorders one laps. Unacceptable. That's what makes it so fucking tough. It's like if you predisposed to murder, you know, you really wanna murder someone your brain is wired to wanna murder, and you can control it all the time that again shouldn't be arrested for thoughts. Uncontrollable desires. That's a bad road to head down. That's that's the nine hundred four. That's the brave new world thought police here, we come. You know, I don't wanna live in that type of soap nightmare, but you have to you have to be one hundred percent batting average thousand percent. Thank you for sending. This message never stopped getting treatment. Thanks for sharing. Who knows who will hear this? Maybe they will hear it. Maybe it will prevent him from acting on their urges. Maybe it'll help them get the love they need to keep them from harming others. And I'm all for that and harming others. That's all I wanna stop. That's all I wanna stop happening when it comes. It's very specific issue. Hail nimrod. Thank you, everyone for your thoughts. Let's keep talking. Thanks times. I need. We all did not so further. Daytime suckers have a great week don't mail out any bombs. Maybe don't go off the grid leaving a creepy backwoods cabin with no, Chrissy. I mean, if you did that how would you be able to keep on sucking? Hey, hey, what's up extra mail? Oh shit. Quite why is this a self addressed to me?
Timesuck with Dan Cummins