5 Episode results for "University Of Meeting"

182|Recovering From Addictive Behaviours With Author and Addiction Specialist Dr Robert Lefever Part 1

Remove the Guesswork: Health, Fitness and Wellbeing for Busy Professionals

36:19 min | 1 year ago

182|Recovering From Addictive Behaviours With Author and Addiction Specialist Dr Robert Lefever Part 1

"I'm Leon Spencer. Founder of Body Shop Formats Limited bestselling author ted speaker. And your host this is removed guesswork. podcast the show interview influential people in the health fitness and wellbeing space to bring you the latest ideas on how to optimize your mind body of Welby Chevy Sports. You buy my company forty performance. We create total solutions to optimize your health by focusing on sleep mental health energy body composition digestion gestion fitness. We weren't busy professionals on a one-to-one basis for six or twelve months using the latest science and technology and what is your also work with businesses want to create eight to coach with energy vitality performance opposition wellbeing visit competitive advantage find out more at show formats dot com and enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to the sweat podcast. I'm Leon Spencer. My guest this week is somebody about four years ago. A fascinating chat quote. Dr Robert Fever Dr Robert the fever. He is an expert in addiction. He's an addiction specialist. He's got a history three of addiction himself going back all the way to the Twelfth Tobin Nineteen eighty-four which is when he gave up alcohol but also lots and lots of other things. He's a real pioneer of modern addiction fiction treatments. And you'll find out more about that. Listen to this two part episode. He created the First Rehabilitation Center in the world to treat all addictions and the UK. He was also so the first to treat patients with eating disorders alongside those with drug and alcohol problems to treat compulsive gambling. Internet addiction work holidays them to identify and treat tweet compulsive helping which we'll talk more about in in part one which is a really interesting idea over the last twenty six. He's worked with over five thousand. In patients suffering from various reforms of addictive and compulsive behavior as well as stress and depression. He identified the La Fever. Clusters of addictive behaviors which are hedonistic nurturing of self relationships and now offers a range of interventions including an intensive to weaken dimension incomplete confidentiality as opposed to greet programs offered elsewhere. So he is really an expert in this field. He's published many many books and I actually met him four years ago and he gave me a signed copy of one of the first editions of his book. This no longer. The publisher is a really interesting character. And I hope you enjoy this episode as much as we enjoyed making it. We split it into two parts. If you're listening to this you've got part one and if you're listening to this live you'll need to wait seven days before we published part too. So that's it for me link to everything we talk about on the show notes. Enjoy the episode. Welcome to the show. I'll give an introduction but it'd be great just seeing what's your background your medical training take us very flipped away you now and then we'll go from that classically trained medical student. I did three Cambridge in three years. Sex Hospital in under I was told not one single lesson in six years on addiction. Right I was joking about Oprah's I was taught about house. Attacks and strokes trucks and things like that consequences but nobody told me a tool what addiction really is. And what you can do about it. I was telling just table. Stop doing it. I said stopped in many times. It didn't work so something had to change. A much changed was when I realized allies that I have an addiction problem myself. Anybody else could have told me that we don't see it very well. I didn't see myself until I was absolutely on the the deck and then I had to change the friend suggested that I you know I try alcoholics anonymous. I who I thought that was never hope was lying in the streets simple currency did and I saw here. I am interesting. So you've been abstinent for how many years that thirty five congressional all. I've been as absent. People talk about recovery. That's not a judge. Other people could judge the quality of my hyphen relationships. I can say this five years since trust about till the nineteen eighty four since I had any alcohol or recreational drugs or mood-altering prescription drugs. That's has depressants tranquilizers sleeping type that's sugar white flour nicotine caffeine any of that. I don't need it. I've got a wonderful life without it. I thought I might be giving up some. I'm seeing what I found was. I gave a lot of hassle. Grief Gossiping Place. Is the life of my dreams. You touch for a brief. You have something I wanted to follow up on. Which is the difference between absence of recovery and as as a chasm of difference between the two things before that? How'd it says a lot of things that you mentioned that you absent form was alcohol the first and most important? What are the others follow from my eating disorder was my first at the age of seven? I fell off a punt sucking lollipop. It didn't matter if I'd drown but I certainly was not introduced lollipop so my sugar addiction could have been diagnosed then. Seventeen twenty seven thirty seven but it wasn't talk it was forty. Seven by weight is debated by fifty pounds. I was on a diet of one kind or another change. Exercising all sorts. Also things the common cross addictions of people with eating disorders shopping spending work and exercise. I used to shop Fremont and I spent money goes. I built up enormous drops. I wept since I didn't even want to do with exercise. I've actually victory anorectic forced to exercise. I take exercise fifteen minutes every single morning and I do balance exercises and some yoga at takes thinks about fifteen to twenty minutes together. I keep time by saying I hate it. I hate it I hate it but I have to do it in order to keep me Obama and sticking up but all the other things. I don't take our work that wants to do now is I just do what I enjoy a shop for what I need to my own shopping and I buy things things to a useful for me. That's it so that side is okay. I don't gamble as identity the lottery once class three three mountain scene. Come on the turn of one card in the game. Wow and my wife wasn't very happy about that. You might imagine so. I didn't capital. I didn't stops ups. It's not worth it. Because the fest spin of the dice on road the wheel or whatever triggers the next and the next and the next so we know the definition of addiction that I would use is the inability to predict. What's going to happen after the first us? Yes she sometimes about. Just put it down but other times off into binge. And I can't predict pays them which is to fest. Minnesota Samantha Treatments engine engine America in center city Minnesota. He said to me the reason we relapses at some cost to Neft. I said what is it while you're driving along on a sunny day day and nothing in your mind the cost of turns left and then it stops outside the bar. And then you're in that drinking a six pack or because sitcoms now that's very important understanding because it shows that these crazy ideas come out of the blue. It's not premeditated did not because of some dreadful trauma it just happens and therefore we need to be not preventive. If I I predict what's going to happen like taking a few shots I didn't take it because I got the few because I want to prevent getting it a different. I the go-to alcoholics anonymous nicotine anonymous or ovaries elements on Amazon. So whatever and all of us in order to prevent a relapse so so that brings me abstinence abstinence. I can say but in recovery. I won't three two from things before you guys actually actually kind to just sit there about the turning left kind of implies fate may strike. There's an absolves us of any sort of involvement in that decision making practices. Which I'm not sure it's exactly what you're saying because it doesn't seem I haven't got any decision on what I do is the message comes into my silly head? Vote at one web heard that side. I didn't have a choice as to whether I get to act on to not in my using days. Of course the hatchet on it was. It was telling me what I wanted to take food to bed with me in the middle of the night in the hope of waking up in the middle of the night right type another meal. I've picked food out of bins. Have certain way regretted. It fished it out again. I've done very stupid things that I don't is it now but the reason is not because I seventy great insights because the thing that actually caused me so much damage for so long slim to Kabir to determined. And that's what kept me out until I was forty five forty seven because I believe that anything could be done can be done with my internet and with my determination when I found that absolutely didn't work then pay. Why because what else could I use? That's what I discovered that. Twelve step program and you about three aspects of Congress to three aspects of what I consider recovery what I really want in life the first piece by in spite of unsolved problems. And we've all got problems. Of course we have but I won't piece about any ways that I can get. Almost the second is happy and mutually fulfilling relationships. I never say I'm married. Because that statement is too short I've made so far and that gives my wife Pat the opportunity to say you think so but then really have to be sensitive to her sensitivities this for example. She doesn't like my papers all over the glass table in the sitting room She doesn't like that is one of the things and then not there the here in my files in this room. So I'm sensitive to her in that way The sad thing is I won't spontaneity creativity and enthusiasm. WHO's your spontaneity? Yeah let's do it now because it found that stood creativity you. Life is fundamentally based upon finding new ideas in the last ten years. I've been married to that. I've written seven novels written or created seven books of photographs with two or three on each page and each is seventy four cool pages. I've written a book of Sonnets. Every day of the I've written a book of Haiku. Went forever. I created. Fourteen animated cartoons so couldn't Santo. WHO's my friend? Who does all the animations helped me with that but I did all the text of the original digital stick drawings done a huge amount into music about when males jazz about eighteen months ago a friend suggested I should join the group quote books music as in? That's fine fine I could write. The book called the lyrics. Maybe and then somebody do music and they come next week because because my wife and I are in next week but come next year us. But I'm eighty-one Dennis Gossen. How the anyway I went to the University of meeting? Of course in the first week I was the key of C major which I think I know. She conducted created the hospitals operatic society when I was twenty eight and I conducted three woman's Zimbabwean and that's not an easy hopper to Kentucky the second actors. I will help actually prefer but a friend of mine on the course said what have you ever composed nothing. Anybody can compare burs. You just sit down to keep order and see what comes out of your fingers. I said what up son conduct had never competitive. She said to do it and so I did. Wow in eighteen months griffin requiem. Requiem hope is not going to be blind date. A song cycle a two act musical a three act opera and pop songs and dime ratting etc of music sounds for for the sun at such. I rode chosen fourteenth hundreds in writing music for that which I hope you do too because straight heavy the life of my dreams leans indeed. Yeah I've never known such happiness see proof Zig one hundred and twenty and stuff but I believe they worked for me. What what I discovered is that I worked for them? I was doing a huge about work but other people well. That's again by addictive nature. I'm a compulsive Hudson Helper. Just explain what you mean by that. I do too much rather people laugh to protect yourself. I take on other problems other other people's problems and make them into my own. I really want to be able to help them but in doing so I can go too far. I patronize them. I belittle them I- infantilized. I don't give them the opportunity to be themselves because I have seen sorted out I want to you get from that. What what I get in God's Heaven Book my place and see think there'll be some reward feature award? It must be something in me. I get a need it clears the sense of time. I'm doing good work. Well stood for parliament back in Nineteen seventy-four. Thank heavens I lost I became. I came out with three candidates which I think is an excellent place to be because if I'd been a politician I don't want to Said's the world I'd want to spend other people's money doing everything everything happens regardless of what happened to me. Well you know maybe a composite papa but not nowadays helpfully in recovery from that because it's one of the trusted programs work to make sure that I don't do too much other people do look up to myself. I was made bankrupt what I was age. Seventy three which is not a good no seventy-two not a good time because you haven't got any Johnson doing anything else after that I hadn't seen that my accountant systematic defrauding me it was. I wasn't running the business properly. I I took my goal because I was doing such wonderful work. I'm doing the. Counseling is the head of the counting team I trained thirty councillors who are now working in other replaces and while I was doing the psychodrama I was doing the EMT. I was travelling to America. Been Thirty one times downing new ideas on how we treat addiction in different ways. I have a huge amount. I didn't look after myself. Well that's changed as to you work out. I enjoy it but I'm doing the life of my dreams soon. My dream is to music to do by writing to do my photography hokey. So let's come back to to addiction then you define it as a new transmission disease. Can you explain a bit more about i. I believe and this is very unpopular. That's three causes of addiction. The fest is genetic. My wife had had eight my wife Meg who died in two thousand nine at eight terrible childhood but she wasn't genetic of any kind there are people like capital Marty who it was very popular. Who says it's all addiction as a consequence of abuse abandonments in childhood? Well I can remember that being said by John Bradshaw is actually just two years ago. It's a very popular idea because it makes sense does treatment to Detroit but it's also blaming somebody else whereas my name is Robert and I am headed doesn't blame. Anybody says this is my the problem so I think the best course is genetic as I say. My wife had many problems in. She didn't have the genetics of where she didn't inherit a father's primary addiction genetic models compulsive helping. She was the perfect wife. I only had to raise eyebrows. She said what can I do. What can I do but of course it wasn't it wasn't good for me because it meant I could get away with all sorts of things rather than take responsibility for myself so the genetics? We've either gotta we haven't the second is. The truth is significant. It does wake up the need to move ration- I felt. I gotTa have something to do with this. I was put into boarding school at the age of four. Then my parents brought me back to England with a mission in India devoting school again they. My parents went back to India for four years between when I was ten and fourteen them between three girls between in fifteen eighteen. I already knew my parents. I had an interesting challenge that I had the normal abuse and abandonment one gets and and British private school but you know survive that cut pretty hopeful time at school. It's our I think that's the most important thing I can take my childhood. It's over but is he. The need for moved alteration was there and I'd already discovered Chicago. Goes I hit that lay troll. When I was in the army discovered nicotine how call then when I was a medical student I discovered gambling? We discover what works for us in treating the trauma and so the third feature addiction is exposure. I did not set off with alcohol nicotine because my family didn't have the money to buy things but we had sugar. And so that's what I hit anti discovered things as I went on and became exposed to more things and I think this is what is crucial that we don't have one one problem. I have new transmission disease which can only be held by finding a good altering substance or process. US that works for me. What I mean by neurotransmitter disease? I think that's what actually happens in the mood. Sentence of my brain the something wrong in the way that the other an if I put in six moon subdued only five submit would come out. I'm uh-huh minus one feeling. I have an inexplicable sense of emptiness and so logically I go looking plus ones and you think something went born when I think certain. whipple was exasperating by environmental factors upbringing. That's right but that is second to ahead with exposure. Yes I have a genetic predisposition. Something has happened to me is available. That's right and so so what I need to do is to accept. My responsibility by name is Robert and I am an addict. That is being Tokyo responsible. I'm not saying oh I was had such a difficult childhood. That's maiming my parents or music teachers or any other people. I don't blame anybody. I take responsibility for my behavior haven. Yeah but not responsible to being an addict that's part of me. I'm short-sighted as well you know had to West Bank's a hell of life was not a very good rugby player which is how they judge things in private school gives a Gordon. Say Run than I'd say So I I don't have any sense of shame of being shortsighted. It's just the way so when an appropriate occasions I could spects not on rugby. Pitch can see perfectly well nowadays. I have plastic by focal lenses inside by it's never gonNA suspects. I met a treatment words. That is no equivalent prediction. The Russians try stereotype surgery. They put one electrode and the side of the head of the top. They put the current on. I'm where there's two electrodes would have met in the center of the brain. They fry it and you can. You zombies abyss. Well that's not what I call. Treatment of the crucial has sued. That's I'm trying to get through. Institite may have an addictive Tiv- nature and have genetic predisposition. But I could do a great deal for it. I could wear my specs despite the short side right with genetic inherited. It was nothing I could do. I can cope with it by finding ways that work. What I've found from addiction was the program about colleagues anonymous now? Applied to a reasonable guy was arrested at anonymous doesn't it's a joke put the biggest fellowship all on an anonymous with people who just can't stop working. Well I had had to send the joke because I've seen the not quite CHAPA. Medicine said herder drink for twenty years and asked note perhaps ain't got get slaughtered about life for you somewhere so I don't mean that literally God get slaughtered shorter but any point in recovering this. It means something this with doing something that we really enjoy saying that he was classically called the dry drunk state not string drinking but not living. The drunk is even worse. A drunk is angry. I don't drink hit me. I don't think won't then when he does get back to drinking the families say thank have we understand you now so we don't relapse at the time that we pick up the first drink we relapse of the time we stop. Stop Working the twelve step program and so all the mood changes come in exactly as before and then bang we pick up the drink and then we're we're drinking so it's that space in between the first time that we start working steps when we've become the first drink again that's cool dry drunk. We should clarify a father. The twelve step program is a classic. Aa Concept isn't it back when the steps were crazy about. Eighty years ago. When Dr Bob and bill w the two CO founders? Alcoholics anonymous met Bill W was a New York stockbroker and he'd heard from a friend who'd seen psychologists cardio that way to get well as to reach out somebody else so when you take him I don't feel self. You get paid to win a helps B a gets better be may or may not but ain't gets better and so they bill w salted try that and he you went to the local hospital and said drunks in as it. Yes and you see them while. If you've got one at home I might here. We're GONNA CHECK GOOGLE DOT bomb his rectal surgeon on the staff of the hospital and I could find his wife and see if she would see and she did. And so Paul W to the home and Mary Smith the door and said yes. You can see Bob. But he's boiled our wonderful expression that yeah drunk out of his skull built spent the whole day with the next day. He went out again. Mary Smith said but it's still drug the wgn. But I know and it was that that formed the basis about going off often one hundred ten members of A. It's that difficult. They would try to detoxify. People in their own homes hanged himself in bill. Wilson's which is wife. Louis wasn't thrilled about as you can imagine and then four years down the line there at the book alcoholics anonymous which is the guidebook and he asked Rockefeller who he knew from new along if he can come and talk to him and yes. I'm bringing some friends because it sounds. If you might have a good idea so bill w and his friends presented wanted to Rockefeller at the end of which of these ideas wonderful and therefore going to give you no money at all. Been uh-huh curious because even the money for to build Rehab. What Rockefeller said was no the ideas? We'll be corrupted by money. You need to establish ourselves in your own way. Not any outside help because that way it's going to work long term and that's exactly okay. What happened it's one of the traditions traditions as twelve steps? That has no opinion on outside issues and takes no income at any time from outside people was interesting thing happened to people years ago in London. Lady Eighty who was so grateful to a severing her husband that when he died she wants you to give a huge sum of money billions. And there's a we can't do that against traditions and so the lady to court or the list as did and it went up to the the High Court and said we can't accept this money and they said you could help enormous people sit no it would kill and the court found in favor of Aa so that she turned down with totally dependent upon provision not even went. It's a cool but I want to come back to the dry drunk idea because I think there were a lot of people walking around they also and I actually had it. We're not just talking Alkali. You've you've mentioned a few gambling sugar nicotine prescription drugs illegal drugs. Legal trucks sex work compulsive helping just ten rattled off there. Were more when we're talking. About diction we all took a very bawdy about tential. Nobody's ever desperate time. I've had a take me. Oh I'd love to have that addiction. Let's see what you really. It has a very high suicide rate because they destroy relationships. Have a very no neil age the stringfellow who ran the sears of nightclubs said he'd had two thousand girls Warren Beatty says he's had two thousand goes what this is. What's that had? What does that mean? I wonder if they've ever had one close relationship in their entire lives. That's what I won't go prints on the side. I just want my wife to be happy with the the sex addicts have eight wretched time so when we look at any addiction. It's an addiction by definition if it's progressive and destructive if you a hand let's indefinitely than you may be silly. You may get drunk driving a car. Crash huts onto the hunter south. That's just being stupid. Cupid and a lot of the questionnaires that I see from John Lewis written by the gentler is not by people within the experience of addiction. So you get questions. Have you ever had a drink in the morning. Priests have a drink in the morning. When they're serving communion nightshift workers have of a drink in the morning? Of course they do the question. It's it's a bad question and so when we're looking addictive behavior the only people who can really the help it are people who've got the insight from being it. Harry Potter speaks parcel tunnel. He can talk serpents. I can't but I can can speak addict. I know how to questions. Would you ask someone who's WHO's concerned about addictive behavior. I would say that. The crucial issue is the first drink triggers. The need for the next whether the first spin of the dice triggers the need for the Knicks. While the fest spoonful of sugar triggers the need for the next that is the crucial question. There twelve characteristics. We always got to remind give it up water to I. Use It with a comfortable using on our own. We use it as medicine. We use it primarily for its mood-altering effect. We lose adult run out at any time. We gotta have it all the time and so under the private relationships like that. That's a crucial. Anybody who's got an addiction incb but it's all on my website that people can look up to questions and judge for themselves which are linked to an Shannon. Thank you so you know. The crucial issue is is always. Am I an addict now. That's applies to about one in. Six of the population does not apply to five six six so when the government gets sensible advice to the population that talking to people need to hear it in. That's not the issue but look the other way round its government to acknowledge that this has a genetic component and you really need to target the families families who have a particular problem for example to my grandparents died about alcoholism. My mother had disorder my children of issues. We're looking at my grandchildren looking at the family. Because that's what we do in the fever family. We don't do cancer. Heart Disease Diabetes. We don't do that. We do addiction. And we're very good at it so the liffey the family needs to be targeted but there are problems with that it because people say not looking at my family and the the danger is that if it is show to be addictive then we'll get prenatal testing and when the women's told that unborn child has has genes for potential for addiction. Say well a pregnancy and bring addict because people have an idea the addicts of heroin shooting up in some the loose somewhere. They don't see people like me. You destroy my entire family own except my niece island about. She doesn't have any addiction. A tool not become so addiction doesn't affect absolutely everybody addictive fattening fattening. But the round numbers that children of the same sex have a sixty percent chance so the the doors of our colleague mothers have a sixty percent chance of being colleague forty percent of the opposite sex eighty percent if both your parents are calling but there's still twenty percent don't get it and just to touch on that that we've talked about the genetic component of it but do you think a lot of that is learned behavior. They've observed where Mommy's stress Cheetahs this or. This is just very or normalized in my that. What what do you think it is? I think that's secondary because the same subsidy is made by the children who did not as a predisposition it's a genetic predisposition makes the difference five we put over five thousand inpatients through to Rehab and we put them all through. The question has decided stabbed and what we found was that some people had particular addictive outlets others had others but what they all had was a family history and I compare these people with the population the type of seeing in my general medical practice where everybody was the street so that was our normal control. A lot of psychological studies use use psychology students as normal control. When I can promise you a psychologist your normal? They've got many high addiction rates because they want to help everybody else and they want to understand themselves and so on so it's not the best normal population whereas medical practices. I did have a normal population. So we weren't able to compare people like the like of age group and sex and and economic status and so on consequently the important thing is that if addiction is genetically inherited we do have to talk to people who've got it and that's what the government wants doesn't want to do. I'm not talking about concrete. Political Government Department of Health. If fundamentally believes that these problems are caused by society we have to Change Change Society. If we're going to change the attitudes of what I'm saying is okay can change society. But it's not gonNA help you. Fundamentally need to target the people who are at greatest this Chris. We didn't talk it. Everybody the diabetes or heart disease. We go put the people who particular markers which indicate that that person is at risk. And I'm I'm what I'm saying is exactly the same principle target the people who are most at risk that's about one in six and so that's it. That's the first half of my conversation with Dr Robert Fever and if you enjoyed that stay tuned for the second half of that conversation which we will roll out on on Wednesday of next week around our usual time if lunchtime so if you've enjoyed this and it's been beneficial to you. It is a subject that a lot of people are interested in actually early on controlling of alcohol if not addiction itself so if there is someone you can think of benefit from listening to this. They're please share while you're what's it. If you have a chance we greatly appreciate you jumping on and leaving his review and a rating on I tunes and of course Subscribe to the coast as well. Thanks very much for. I think we'll be back next week interested in finding out what you'll help I Q. It's jumping our website. WWW DOT body ODI short performance dot com. Click on. Take the test. It'll take you to a short two to three minutes test. And at the end of that you'll get a school called and a free thirty nine page. The report based on our six signals sleep mental health energy body composition digestion and fitness. And if you've enjoyed this episode please think of someone you could really benefit from the content and hit that share button and send it across to them. And of course don't forget subscribe and Nevis a rating and review. Thank you very much for listening

nicotine Dr Robert Fever Leon Spencer America Dr Bob rugby Twelfth Tobin Nineteen Rockefeller Minnesota Sex Hospital UK Welby Chevy Sports publisher Cambridge Founder First Rehabilitation Center Obama Kabir ted speaker India
Ep. 358  Gary Cohn

The Axe Files with David Axelrod

1:03:02 hr | 1 year ago

Ep. 358 Gary Cohn

"We hope you'll love this episode to listen to all the newest episodes sign up for luminary premium. The only place you'll find all episodes of this show and other premium ad free repoed cast. You can't hear anywhere else right now. You can sign up for luminary premium with a special holiday pricing of three ninety nine a month for a full year and you can cancel anytime time sign up today at Luminary. PODCAST DOT COM. That's luminary podcast. Dot Com for this limited time offer available only in the US UK aac Canada and Australia pricing subject to local currency. This offer expires December. Fourth Twenty nineteen and terms apply and now from luminary media and the University of Chicago Institute of Politics The accident with your host David Axelrod Gary Cohn became a man in the news when President Trump chose him to lead the National Economic Council during the first year and a half of the president's administration cone was the architect of the trump tax cuts cuts but he also clashed with trump on everything from trade and immigration to Charlottesville. Finally resigning in two thousand eighteen. I sat down with cone last week at the Institute of Politics to talk about his experience. In the trump administration his role as a leader of Goldman Sachs during the mortgage crisis and his own surprising. Life Story Gary Cohn. Great to see you. Thank you for being at the Institute of Politics Wchs and great great to sit down with you. You have a remarkable personal story. I know everybody's interested in your recent story and we'll get to that but I I really am interested in your your personal journey which is an inspiring one But Tell me a little bit about your your family. Your grandfather was an immigrant from Poland. When when did he come over here? My grandfather came over And as a thirteen year old you know escaping Europe as Typical Jewish immigrant. Trying to get out of Europe was early early twentieth century. Yes yes early. Twentieth twenty century the drums. Exactly the story goes something like this. thirteen-year-old eight dollars in his pocket put on a boat to escape to a better land land. America came by himself. Came through Ellis. Island had a relative in Cleveland Ohio so somehow managed to find his relative in Cleveland. Ohio and set up in Cleveland Ohio That was the end of his formal education. was basically you know being a thirteen year. Old came to Cleveland the on and started working literally. Odd Jobs Working three jobs to support himself. He was literally a bottle Washer back in the days when we had glass milk bottles he was a candy maker literally made Fudge in at night and then ultimately got himself into the Electrical Union as an apprentice apprentice and ultimately that's where he found his career as being an electrician but completely self made man with Lily one relative in America and I think very typical story of a lot of people in that period of time trying to get out of Europe trying to get through the United States. It's trying to find a better opportunity. So I I have to ask you I I. I don't want to disrupt the the narrative of your story but it has used just everyone's story informs their thinking and their their views one of the things that you obviously had a difference with the president on was the issue of immigration. How much of that I mean? Some of it is pure economics were aging country. We need immigrants How much of it though is also informed by your your own experience and you're the story of your grandfather and a million other stories like that? I'm one of them. I'm the son of an immigrant myself. Both of my grandfathers were Polish. I basically Polish immigrants so I think that clearly has an impact. On the way I think of immigration this country just from a fundamental the mantle experience of having grown up with immigrant grandparents and grandparents came to this country and help build this country and created did economic prosperity. Not only for themselves. But my mom's father one who just talking about you know. He ended up building a a relatively decent size local northeast. Ohio business and probably at the height of electrical supplies electrical contracting probably had two hundred and fifty three hundred employees You know and to me. That's the American dream when you talk about the growth of the economy here. A lot of companies are started by immigrants. You know when we look at today's economy in the technology world. I think it's over. Fifty eight percent of the billion dollar. Plus plus technology companies have been started by immigrants. Yeah and I think what's instructive here. Is You know people talk about well. We need to bring high end. Immigrants Immigrants who are highly early educated. The fact is that your grandfather is a great example of someone who came here with nothing but ambition to build a better life and and that was the spark for success and that is really how the country the country was built. But I you know back in the day when he was coming over when my father came over my father came nineteen twenty one the things that are being said about immigrants. Today we're being set about immigrants from Poland and Eastern in Europe Jews that they were diluting the the The population taking taking taking jobs ABS. Yeah no look. The narrative. Unfortunately hasn't really changed is just abdin flowed during periods of time You know the the the good news about when our grandparents came over it was a high economic growth prosperity time we were going through a bit of Ah Industrial Revolution which was a highly labor intensive part in our history We're going through an interesting time right now where we've got got you know fifty year unemployment rates Gill unemployment rates at fifty year lows at three and a half percent. We've got wage growth so where it another point in our history where we're going to continue. Can you. To grow our economy. We need more and more workers and so the times are probably very similar to each other one was a more manual labor Economy Economy and now they were more of a digital economy. And what I guess a lot of people like calling the GIG economy to some extent. Yeah We'll we'll get get back to the immigration issue in the in the modern context. You grew up in Cleveland area. As you as you point out one interesting thing about your story is that you had You had a learning challenge DISA- disability in dyslexia and you You sort of discarded in certain ways by your teachers. At an early age they gave up on your Potential Oh tential Ta talk about. Yes so I was probably a bit of the perfect storm A I had this Lexi but in nineteen one thousand nine hundred sixty four five six seven when I was going through those various formative years of learning how to read and write dyslexia wasn't Well diagnosed in people didn't understand it. We also I got caught in that perfect storm over. They were experimenting in Public Schools with a new way of reading. Something call which was very phonetic way of reading where knife wasn't spelled with a K.. It was spelled with an end the way I think it should spelled anyways So I got caught up in this world where I basically didn't see letters in the right order anyways anyways and then was shown one way to read and never could transition transition to a second way of reading and you'll in in in the sixties there was really very little information on dyslexia so you know the the typical remedy in the public school little system was that I was very lazy. I didn't care I'm and I had no desire to learn which in many respects was the complete opposite is it of what was going on so you know. Every every time I went into a new classroom setting I would go through the same. I'm horrible experience of being told I was lazy. I didn't apply myself. I if I'd only try succeed and you're like four schools by the time I mean look I the the the the issue with with a I guess a rambunctious kid kid who really does want to succeed in his tired of being told he's a failure is you tend to try and create relationships and be part of the class structure in other ways. So I get on in. Hindsight sorta became the class clown design extent and being the class clown. Maybe fun but it doesn't endear yourself to the faculty so I had a few run INS with fueled few different school faculties lease and he was asked to leave public school. And and sort of worked my way through the Cleveland School System. Going from the gamut of a public school to completely open school to ending up at a highly highly disciplined Catholics. Go Nice Jewish kid cow right. So you know I definitely. I saw the gamut of Academic institutions growing up. And so you folks kept getting told. This kid isn't going anywhere. This doesn't have it. It was really your grandparents who who saw in you. Something that others didn't see if so the reason I talk about my mom's father so much is is because he was really the one that that in many respects Saul who I was understood who I was in sort of protected me in my in my life life in he was the one who kept reassuring. My parents that know your your son is going to be fine and my grandfather kept saying this is not a dumb kid so just just keep stay with him so he kept convincing. My parents That you know there's something here don't don't don't don't throw this getaway and this was the point where The academic system was saying to my parents literally when I overheard this conversation one day where a teacher pulled my momma said said. Look if your son grows up to be a truck driver that will be a good outcome for. How did you feel when you heard well in many respects? It just inspired me so like in my mind. I knew knew that I could succeed. I didn't know what success was but I didn't think driving a truck with success. I didn't know where I could ultimately end up but but I use it as a motivating factor to get to what I wanted to get and allowed it to to to push me to to achieve more and more and more and look. It wasn't really to chill. I got to college. I could university. I went to American University. ORSI wasn't you get to college. You can sort of figure out how to quasi succeed academically. You know I'll never claimed. Aim to be a great student but for you reading was labored. I mean may still still. It's still is yeah. I read somewhere that I can't remember. What the denominations nominations were? But how long it takes you to to work through it and pay in so look what I have trained myself to do in this is a trainings. I can read a contract because a contract has to make sense. Point be has to come after point A. and point see has to come after point be so so it's very largely laid out where I know what's going to come next and so I can read sort of non-fiction because the characters are the characters in May each play their role but I can't read a fiction book today. Still never read one in my life so when people ask me. What was the last book you read for foreign? I I look at him sort across it and say what are you talking about It's sort of like you know I'm looking at the books on your shelf. And he asked me which one of those I've read like I haven't read any of those books because those books would make make sense to me. Yeah one of them you put it out with fear by Bob Woodward we'll get to that I have a sense. You do know what the Book Jacket Looks. You may have glanced through through that one. I I don't know but people have read parts of it to me so you got through college. You went home You were basically goofing gone. Yeah basically back bedroom at six thirty in the morning you had a come to Jesus with him so I I went through college so so interesting story. I after my freshman year in college I got a internship at a local brokerage firm in Cleveland Anyway which was really the moment that changed my life and I ended up in the commodities department because that was the part where the guys didn't wear ties and yelled and screamed all day long and and it was the most undisciplined part of the brokerage shop? I opened up a brokerage account for the month. I was there. I traded the Chicago New York. Gold arbitrage made paid a lot of money doing that in in time. Try To tell my dad. I wasn't going back to college after one year. That did not go well. So I'm first generation in college educated. My family my. My parents went right into the family. Businesses in kids as as parents did in that in that generation and my dad told me that he He wasn't going to have it that he worked hard enough to safer college education. We're going to college. So was the idea when you just going to. You're going to well after that. It's summer with the amount of money I was able to make with the inefficiency in the market. I said this complete waste and for you to AB paying tuition. When I can be be making obscene amount of money in a risk-free fashion so needless to say he forced me back to college all the money I made that summer? I continue to trade when I went back to school and put put things in perspective. I was trading on a payphone in the hall and the one eight hundred number. Because we're no cell phones you know. The story lost all back within three or four weeks. I lost everything I had made in the month. They lost it all back. I got angry at the system and so I graduated two years later so I graduated college in three years. They'd summer and it was Mike Plan to ultimately go to the floor of a commodities exchange. Having seen that if you you know you can't beat them. Join them so you went to work for. US steel so excited sided. One thing led to the next and I ended up working for is called all side. which is the Home Building Products Division of steals replacement Windows Gutter Coil? Aluminum siding hiding vinyl siding. So I worked there till Thanksgiving of that you went into new. You went into the city went to the commodities exchange so who I finally got myself to the new Long Island Office in convincing ninety two weeks there and after a week and a half I convinced the head of the office that I wouldn't being on Friday that Friday I got myself down to the commodity exchange in New York and spent the whole day at the commodity exchange. Trying to to figure out how to get on the floor to get a job which is virtually impossible. These exchanges are locked down. They have a lot of security. You just can't wander on the floor and in a bit of fate eight standing at the elevator. The last possible moment panicking that I had failed and thrown away the day and not succeeded. I heard a gentleman say. Hey I'm running to the airport. I'll call you when I get there. I jumped in the elevator with them and said hey are you going to laguardia. He said yes. I said you might have I ride with you. He said no no idea who he was. Not a clue in the world. Not a clue a he he like he could have been the owner of a firm. He could have been the janitor. I had I had no idea who he was. So you just took a shot took a shot. I had I had nothing to lose it by the time time. You get to Laguardia You had struck up this relationship. Yup and he And he asked you what you new. Yes and you lied. Of course. I lied so that happened to be the first week that they had started trading options on futures and he had been he was the options traders for one of the big floor brokerage firms so he asked me in the in. The taxi wanted new adoptions. Could I help him and of course I know everything. There's nothing I don't know about options. I can help you. I can do whatever you need to do. He said well. I need someone to stand behind me and tell me what to do. I don't know anything about options I need to tell me. What the by with the cell? How how to trade? So I said great. I'm your guy didn't know a thing about options at the time literally got got on the plane went back to Cleveland got off. The plane went to Barnes and noble an again got lucky walked into Barnes and noble the by book which is kind of ironic that'll dyslexic kids going into a book. But I had to do something Went and bought the Macmillan book options as a strategic investment. which is now I know is the Bible of options trading? I just happened to look like the right book at the time I picked him by the collar and went in there and memorize sort of three chapters after three. There's probably fifty strategies in the Macmillan Book I memorized three strategies. Went Back to interview them. Talked about this three strategies until I was blue Lou in the face and he hired me on the spot and I started the next week and you thrived there. I did that that going through. That book was a probably a trial trial to given you know. Yeah Yeah I mean. That's why. I chose three chapters other fifty chapters on. There was no way I was GONNA I. I was GonNa get to the whole book so I happen at show she choose three chapters that were relatively straightforward. That seemed like okay. I could get these. I can explain lane these I can execute these and seem like any in the right place there and you ended up at Golden Sachs by Thanksgiving of eighty two. I was on the floor. Stayed on the floor Till eighty nine in in an interesting moment in time by that point I had sort of worked my way into the governance exchange. I was on the board of the exchange. I got myself to the board of the clearinghouse and a funny thing happened. This little firm called Drexel went bankrupt and myself myself and another gentleman who happened to be Goldman Sachs partner. We were asked to liquidate the drexel clearinghouse position which was a massive position So I became friendly. With a guy named Jim Riley who was running the metals trading adding department at Goldman Sachs and we became friendly and that whole drexel bankruptcy process and then at the end of that year he had asked me to come up and join Goldman Zack's income trade for him on his desk. He wanted me to come up and be a proprietary trader for Goldman Sachs and you you became a partner. I thirty four four when you became a was a partner there and You had a meteoric rise you ended up as a CO president chief operating officer for Goldman one of the things that you did there. You had the mortgage Portfolio and you greatly enhanced Goldmans Goldman's involvement in the mortgage market. Obviously this had it made a lot of money for them. It also took a very a very dark turn in the in the mid to late two thousands and Goldman's come under Goldman had to pay five five billion dollars in fines And related to this partly for hedging against shorting the market they were marketing products For talk about that whole mortgage episode and How how you look back at it now? The End Goldman's role in it. So this is a complicated complicated situation so and I could spend the next three hours talking about to get to the bottom. But I'll try to it relatively high level so we good luck bad luck you know this. There's probably one of those things we prior to the mortgage crisis had opened a bank a Utah. ILC Bank And in that I'll see bank when you're taking deposits you've got investment something. We had made a decision to who by mortgages in that bank so we ultimately had a portfolio that was quite long mortgage product subprime mortgage the whole the whole spectrum more advice from AAA prime all the way down to subprime it. I ah it became more and more obvious to me as a guy running our mortgage trading business which was a very large trading business in agency type mortgages and we did create a lot of the asset market essentially aggregating and and and selling rice agriculture huge pools of diverse mortgages is into one security and reselling security which is at the core of the crisis. Yeah the core of the crisis was was was definitely that and then how. You sort of index them So but having seen all that it became more and more obvious to me the being long mortgage or spread product as they call it was completely the wrong position so we made a relatively strategic decision. There was a fairly famous meeting. That's been written but not many times with myself and then. CFO David Vinegar where we decided to hedge our bank mortgage position so you know people refer to as the big door. It became the big short. It became the big short. And and if you read into it you know we talked about the big short only to cover there are big long. People didn't want to talk about the big long that we had in the. I'll see bank. They only WanNa talk about the short. But you also so didn't WanNA talk You didn't WanNa talk about the risks of these products that you're selling That caused you to go short. Uh on on these very same product so so look we went short in a variety of different ways. You you know the the interesting thing about you. Know the commodity markets or the derivative market. It's a zero-sum market so if I'm GonNa go short and say I will make money if the market goes down own someone has to say I will take the position to be long and make money if the market goes up and so a lot of people have written about the fact that we took a position or we facilitated the creation a products that if the market went down the M- the people people would make money if the market went down. The thing that was disturbing to many many people was that a lot of people lost their homes. A lot of people Were ruined wind by this crisis and And people in the industry Who who who were in a position to to maneuver and go sh short on it ended up coming out? Okay I I think that's a very over-simplification Thirty two mortgage originating banks went out of business so I don't think any of those people feel like they were okay. Did you net out ahead. I think it was about even re- honest with you. I it was it was not a windfall profit. Let let me ask you one last question on this You We're talking to a journalist once in in About all doctorate yet. This probably discouraged discourages. You Bet You said Who broke the law? I just want to know who broke. The law was the waitress in Las Vegas who had six houses leverage at one hundred percent with no income which she reckless and stupider was the banker reckless and stupid but the banker is in A. Isn't the banker in a better position to understand The risks than the waitress trysts in Las Vegas who thought this thing was and maybe was marketed to her. In a way that said well this is a this is a pretty good deal This look it's an interesting question now is is is. Are we also close to play big brother. So if you're a waitress address and you've already bought the house and you bought your six house and you're doing no docks no documentation no income verification advocation loans and the bank gives you one and there's a rental market that justifying buying the house. I don't know who's guilty in that. I I my point is everyone is equal everyone guilty in that what information should have been given to the waitress about the risks associated with I. I wasn't part of that but I bet you the waitress was given all of the risk disclosure and she side. I guarantee you because the the bank regulations are still pretty tough now did did. Did the entire industry go too far down on lack of documentation lack of income verification lack of down payment hundred percent loan to value. Of course they did. I'M NOT GONNA sit here and say the industry was was perfect. Perfect I'll ask you. I know you're supposed to be asking me but when you when you when you click on APPs today this is not the cone funnel. No we knew. Click on APPs today and and you get nineteen pages of disclaimer and it says you accept or not. Have you read. Have you read all that. No because it may say that you may lose your house in it may say you may lose. Lose your car and it may say that we may take your information and sell it. It may say all these I asked you. Click on it I I do. That's a good point. Click on I click on it. Yes okay I have some intuitive sense of of of risk and if I think there is a risk I probably show it to my lawyer and say what are you you know the waitress in Las Vegas probably had some intuitive sense to and she said they can do lose the house right and guess what she lost the House. Yeah I And and and the country went into a deep economic Spiral because of that. But did they do. You have regrets about how you handle the how Goldman handle it. How the industry handled it? So there's there's many different ways to answer that question. There really are so so look my job at Goldman Sachs was to to to act as a fiduciary for my shareholders so acting as a fiduciary for my shareholders and protecting them and protecting the net worth of the firm and protecting the value of the firm. I think we did a pretty good job. Maybe did a very good job and sometimes not losing money is is. I always say sometimes not. Losing money is more valuable than making money. So from that standpoint did a pretty pretty good job to a very good job on the reputational risk standpoint which is always a much more difficult thing in something that we probably spend the next ten in years discussing was reputational risk and we got to this interesting saying in the firm. I shouldn't say we I haven't been there for three years. Yo It's the old can we. Should we just because we can do something should we do it. And it's a very interesting discussion and it fits in almost every industry. Sorry just because we can do. It doesn't mean we should do it On the can we should we. I think Goldman like every every financial institution small and large and start with every tiny mortgage originator all the way down all the way through the credit ratings everyone everyone involved in the spectrum and I don't think anyone gets a free pass. Everyone missed the little bit on the can we should we. They forgot this. Should we part just because we can doesn't mean we should do it so I I think everyone in hindsight owns some responsibility on the should we side let let me let me Move forward here to Your service in government. You're you're a democrat. I still am a Democrat. Always he's been a democrat. And were you surprised when you got an intriguing. Jared Kushner asked for your advice During the campaign you agonized over it got some advice. Thought this guy could be president. Maybe I could be helpful. Yes so I interface with the campaign came came after the convention before the first debate the hoster debate was supposed to be an economic debate. It was it wasn't as we both know. And I got a call from jared to ask me if I would meet with them and talk about the economic issues and I wasn't sure what to do because you never actually met with With candidate Hannity. I did not meet with the candidate. Then you really meet with them until after the after the election correct. I didn't meet with him till after Thanksgiving after the election so is literally coming up on the University of meeting with a sound like a peculiar meeting because he was very taken by you I was Steve Mnuchin there. Yes Steve was there. And and and Candidate Now the president president-elect says hey I should made you the Treasury injury secretary which must have made Mnuchin feel that we must have been awkward moment. It was a strange moment. You know Stephen I had worked together is Stephen. I had had known each other for many many years. It was a bit of an awkward moment. But you ultimately he offered you the Chairmanship the Directorship of the National Economic Council essentially being his chief economic adviser. Did you have. What was your throat with? Did you talk to your family did you. How did you process that or did you just say he's the president of the United States? He's asking me to do this. And so we we The president-elect and I had gone through a bunch of iterations of would I come to work for him. What would I do so literally the first meeting? I went in to see him. which was the Tuesday after Thanksgiving? I was under the belief that I was there to go through a economic overview of the United States and jared had asked me to come and said look exactly what you did with us in September right before the Hofstra debate. I'd like you to sit down with the president-elect and do that did you. Yeah Yeah I. I was prepared to do that but did you do it. Was He interested in hearing that no he he actually was he. He actually was interested in doing that. and he gave me quite a bit of time. People were were warning me. He wouldn't give you a lot of time. I I went in well prepared with you. Know My my three rebate bullet points I wanted to make and then I had lots of talking points below there but yes he he did. Let me talk about the. US economy he did. Let me talk about out my concerns about what what the opportunities were and what the risks were and then you know literally sort of an hour into oh supposed I do. I thought was supposed to be at ten to fifteen minute meeting We started getting in the discussion of working for him In Typical Donald trump fashion in. This is something you sort of admire about him. You know about an hour in the meeting. He turned him. You'RE GONNA come to work for me. I said look with all due. Respect was the president-elect I have one of the best jobs in America. You know really happy doing what I'm doing. I love what I'm doing obviously hadn't watched the apprentice. Because that's how it works. Yeah Yeah I don't watch. TV clearly clearly did not prep well for them. And and so it ultimately midler led to an offer. Yeah who come and were were you were going to give up this obviously very successful career in business or at least put it on hold and and go to work for a guy who was pretty a controversial in elite circles and you travel in elite circles one of the things that that strikes me is And it automatically led to you leaving but a donald trump got elected on some very specific plan. I mean if just as a political person I can just tell you that the things that resonated the most with his base was anti-trade You know Trade Trade Agreements Anti Immigration Anti you know. Climate Change denial and so on And then the argument that climate change REMEDIATION was bad for the economy. I mean there are things I know you agreed on taxes and regulation but those were sort of lynchpins of his candidacy. You knew that going in right yes I knew it but remember I also thought that I could potentially sway him. mm-hmm yeah and I also know historically being a little bit of a story in of presidential races that sometimes what you run on is not exactly what you mean when you come to govern right so you know in my mine having on the inside and trying to influence was better than being on the outside and trying to get to a more positive outcome on your climate on trade on Immigration Shen. Those were those were three areas. where I you know the President I you know had many many many long discussions on The value and what I thought the potential outcomes were or were I wear some compromise positions. Maybe and how I mean in the book that I mentioned earlier. That's on the shelf over here thing. I'm staring at your staring at Bob Woodward's book. He reported that On occasion you would remove move paper from the president's desk You know that would have Pulled the US out of trade agreements. South Korea Nafta data. Is that true. Did you what kinds of things did you do to try. And prevent what you thought would be not a destructive decision. So they look I come from a fact based world in my world. It's like you can have your opinions and I can have my opinions and we can argue all day long but if I can empirically show you facts and I can show you reality. That's supposed the win the day so I spent the vast majority of my time with President and he gave me enormous amount of time. No one should think that he got short shrift here and I and and I probably got a disproportionate amount of his time in the White House. I went in overly prepared with with factual analysis on the intended and unintended consequences of different moves that he would make make and tried to persuade him. Based on the facts and in many respects look it may not have ended up where I wanted to end up but I know for sure we along aided the timeframe months if nine years on some of these decisions and the president understood or had a greater appreciation for the potential unintended consequences that may not have affected his decision. But I knew before. He made that decision that when I thought what was going to happen APPA happened. He wouldn't be shocked by which I thought. Isn't it advisor to the president. Is My job ultimately and you know this having served as he's the ultimate decision maker. I'm supposed to do my job and make sure that he understands the impact of that decision and his supporters would say you you you you should not substitute your judgment for his judgment. He was the guy who got elected. Right didn't run for office right so you didn't I notice that you artfully didn't answer the question as to whether you remove paper from his desk should I take that as a yes. I supported the president. In best factual analysis. There was one moment that was widely reported in written about where you Around Charlottesville when you were standing next to him and he said things that were deeply offensive to you and many others and you A went into resign and he said it would be treason for you to resign. What kind of how is how did that conversation go? Why'd you decide decide to stay so again? I had an interesting relationship with the president He and I were brutally honest honest with each other always and I and I would hope that every other advisor to every other president would be limited stop there for secondary because John Kelly. I did a forum and he said when he left he told the president do not surround yourself with people who are going to tell you what you WanNa hear. Because you'RE GONNA end up getting impeach. He is now being impeached. Do you think that Kelly was right. Is there an absence of people around him to to tell. Tell him what he doesn't want to hear as you told him what he didn't want to hear when I went to the White House and it was interesting because I I I came into the White House as a complete stranger to that group of people. I mean I wasn't involved in the campaign wasn't involved in any. In fact a lot of people who were there were strangers. But when I showed up it was interesting you know. I run into a rob porter who have secretaries Dow who is amazing as a staff secretary and another guy that would just stand there and color present the truth you know you so you look at you look at rapport porter. Look at Myself Robin. I probably spent the most time in the Oval Office to get some safety in numbers just sitting there telling the president what he needed here then look. mcgann was a very good lawyer. Who is there? Also tell the president what he needed to know Kelly there to tell the president we needed to know McMaster there to tell the president would he needed no. We had an interesting nucleus of people when I was in the White House the initial team we you were not bashful. There was a group that was willing to tell the president what he needed to know whether you wanted to hear it or not. I can't help notice we have you. Are there any I was. I was just GONNA say none of us. Are there anymore so i. I am concerned that the the atmosphere career in the White House is no longer conducive or no one has the personality to stand up and tell the president what he he doesn't want to hear. You know this may be. I don't want to sound arrogant but my view was look. I'm here to be an adviser to the president. I advised the most important companies in the world. I made my reputation and brand in life by telling them the truth. I told a lot of CEO's and a lot of boards things they didn't want on ear. I wasn't going to treat the presence of the United States any differently. If he wanted to fire me he could fire me. I served it pleasure. I understood that and I was K. Hey if he didn't want to hear among the advice you You you gave them was on matters. That involve business one was on the. At and T.. He Time Warner merger and he wanted the Justice Department to intervene. In that case you were quoted Coming out of their. Ah Telling Kelly. Don't you fucking Dare Collar Justice Department. We're not going to do business. That way. Is that among the blunt advice that you gave. I gave save the truthful blunt advice understanding law having grown up in a highly regulated business. Do you think the president understood the boundaries. I look I very much. Respect the constitution and the independent agency structure in the United States like to me the independent agency structure. You know. Having been fed watcher my whole life I lived and died watching the not a job I want and watching the FTC. In in watching all of the different agencies I think the independent agency structure in the United States is very very important. I don't think people understand it. People in the government may understand understand it so when ever the president would get close to that line. I would sit there and tell him. Look Mr present. This is not where you you should go. And I send attitude the fat I send it to him with every independent obviously a time warner owned. CNN He also went after Amazon and was clearly irritated about the coverage. He was getting in the Washington Post. Where these were the kinds of where these are sort of triggers for these discussions the there we're lot to different triggers for these discussions I felt it was my job to bring the facts into discussion. So you know a another area where we had you know lots of discussion. Was this whole idea an Amazon hurting the post office and the US postal the Amazon's largest largest client Amazon. US Post Office would have to raise rates dramatically like. It's my job as an advisor to explain to the president how many packages go through the US post office. That's not what he said publicly. I understand but like you and I both know two or at least we should know that the fact that e mail has taken over almost all first class mail and the only thing that really goes straight now is third class mail and so they have lost their big client which is stuff that has to get there relatively quickly but they have subsidized that by being in the package delivery system. Yeah without that package delivery I get I get a two. But so would and was it your sense that he was ticked at Basil's and that was what was motivating. I don't know for sure I can't say that for sure So Charlottesville I left you off in the middle of the story was fine can you can you know and I know that one of your. Your children You know was impacted by this. It was a swastika. UH-HUH I actually think Bob took some liberties on the conversation because you you told him how upset you were about this in the spirit of the bluntness that you say you share with him and you said you WanNa leave and he said it would be treason for you to leave so again in in in typical me fashion. I didn't hold back with him. On my view on Charlottesville. What's Phil especially good? People on both sides of the line will resonate in my head for the rest of my life and just for you. Let me just point out. If someone who served in the Watson with the president with who am I was very very close it is not easy to sit in that office until the president of the United States. Stuff under the best of circumstances that they don't WanNa hear. I suspect maybe even harder harder with him. I don't know but I just want to set context here. These are hard conversation. Oh these are very difficult conversations these are you look. You're talking talking to the president of the United States. You are telling him right. You're literally telling him things he does not want to hear. Did he vehemently disagrees with you. Know that before you walk in. It's not like you're confused. Where his position? Yeah I confused and was he angry at you. Oh I'm sure I'm sure he was angry with me A more so than angry. He just disagreed with me. He just disagreed me too. What the context was in what had been said what the meaning of the conversations were and what was the context of treason? How would it be treasonous? Futilely well at the time it was August. I remember it very clearly. We were sort of in the beginning of the heavy lift on tax reform And I was leading the tax tax reform policy discussions. I was having all the meetings. I was driving tax reform and I think the president was Concerned that if I wasn't there to drive tax reform the tax reform wouldn't get done and that was sort of his number number one agenda item and was hopefully going to be his big accomplishment. He thought in the first year of his administration may be in the first four years as of his administration to some extent and he thought that I had left it would have fallen apart and hit. Also your how to resurrect it also would would have been It would have been an affirmation of the feeling that what he said was inappropriate and that to probably disturbed in On tax reform. You did pass the bill One of the ways that it was marketed was you know okay growth and jobs and and And wages And the critics said it's GONNA explode deficits most the money's GonNa go to Buybacks in dividends Din- given the deficits have sort of exploded. Not because the tax plan. Well that's you say that don't say that you'd be disappointed. Pointed at me. No no I absolutely the reality faction will answer is as I said I'm very fact base. Yes tax receipts are at all time record highs so so we're collecting more taxes. We collected more in seventeen sixteen in more in in eighteen minutes and we'll collect more nineteen than eighteen. Okay so receipts are going up. What people don't want to talk about is they? Don't want to talk about the fact that we can't get a budget done that every time we go for a continuing resolution and we continue to compromise on spending we have to appease both the left and the right and the way we appease is. We both let them spend so. It's not a revenue problem. We have a spending spending problem in this That's partly that's that's there's no doubt that there's a spending issue As well I'm willing to I'm willing to concede that but The corporate tax revenues are down individual tax rates are flat revenues up forty nine billion. I don't know what they go. The corporate tax revenues are supposed to be down. I guarantee you their down lead lowered corporate taxes. You know how much they're down about one hundred billion dollars so in the all-time height of your administration. The Obama Administration corporate tax revenues were about three hundred billion. There were nine percent of total collections. People get tied up in this whole corporate tax thing. We're now down to maybe I'll I'M GONNA I'm GonNa give you both extremes to make it the worst argument against me I can possibly can. So we've gone from nine percent on the high to maybe six percent on the low so we've gone from a high of maybe three hundred billion to a low of maybe two hundred billion. Two hundred hundred billion dollars swing all were talking about in taxes. So there's a young thirty thirty percent or thirty percent of three point three trillion really and we're talking about a hundred billion. Okay we're talking about relatively irrelevant. Number individual taxes are actually up. This is the the the thing that drives me absolutely crazy when we talk about factual numbers. So we talk about the actual rate being being down but we're here at the University of Chicago. I think you've got really smart. Quantitative people here. I think they will tell you that. If you take take a multiplication sort of scenario and you take a large number and multiply times a small number versus taking a smaller number multi larger number. That could be bigger and what I mean by that is in the old tax administration prior to trump used to take aac your total gross income. Then you'd start deducting lots of deductions so and then you would multiply times a higher tax rate in the new world. You Take Your Tax Lincoln you have very small deductions and you multiply times a little smaller number. You end up paying more taxes. The only way the tax rates tax collections for individuals could go. Up is if that's true because right now more than fifty percent of people. The bottom fifty percent percent don't pay any federal income tax. Yes yes but no I I I understand that they pay federal taxes taxes. It made no income tax. Okay income impact they get killed on social security tax. They pay six point two percent on on social security tax I don't want to go down the SRA we could do this hour's week at this hour this is not a rabbit hole. No this is the complete complete narrative you've that is trying to be spun by people looking at tax rate versus what percent of income they pay taxes on yeah And and if you want I guess the real question is sort of after tax Your after tax income position. And but I I don't want to. I can't let you go without the the issue you left on about was tariffs. We're now Well well more than a year is just you know my my. My ultimate decision to leave started with Charlottesville Mhm I did agree with the president to stay in Finnish tax reform because I did think it was so important for our country In the reason I felt it was so important for our country. Is I thought that this idea that we were getting incentivize companies in America to re domicile outside of the United United States to get lower tax rates and move jobs and move corporate headquarters outside the United States was a horrible position to be in and still even at twenty one percent. which by the way? I wasn't advocate for twenty one. I would've gone to twenty five percent I I read all okay And and we can talk about how many companies actually repatriated gated operations and all that but on on tariffs were now at We've been we've gone on for more than a year on these There's talk that there's some agreement at hand. Are you confident that the agreement is going to actually address the fundamental fundamental issues that American business Complaints about which is intellectual property the phase one. It has nothing to do with with the real issue so the phase one agreement is basting agricultural mark. It's an agricultural agreement with market access. So basically basically you know if you look at what they're trying to do in phase one as they're trying to get the Chinese to reestablish buying agricultural products from the United it states and open up some selective market access for US companies into China. That's all phase one is dealing with A. Ah Look. It's good that we're at least getting phase one out of the way because that's the in my opinion. That's the low hanging fruit in fact. That fruit shouldn't even have to be picked. We never should should be where we are. The real issue of IP theft copyright infringement forced technology transfer. That's all in face to phase three phase four. We have not even gotten close to dealing with that and do you think that the president is it your sense just watching and knowing him that he he will give on. The tariffs to the satisfaction of Chinese in order to get this phase. One done so that he can. Kim Declare Victory so I was in Beijing last week and met with Leo. Who and she and in in the team over there you know so? It's not clear to me that this is that easy to get done so you know. The Chinese to their credit and in the Chinese are very smart they have found subsitute Product so Brazil can fill the void on agricultural products and the Chinese are buying from Brazil. And it's not like the Chinese people are starving right now. They're they're doing fine so for the Chinese to agree to phase as one It has to make sense for them. I think the president should get a phase one deal done. It makes sense for him to get a phase. He's one deal done. We need to get our farmers back growing again. You know when when the president came into office we were about twenty nine billion ish of exports exports agricultural exports. Were down about nine or ten billion. Now you know he's talking about going back to two forty. I'd like to get back to thirty. Thirty would be great accomplishment. That is something that our farmers. How much damage is done to the economy? I think he's done a lot. It's no secret that I have been anti nerves. And and the agricultural tariffs aren't even the worst part of them you know to me. The steel aluminum tariffs have been much more damaging for the economy. So when you talk about tax patrick form and the lack of growth. That's come out on one hand. We incentivize businesses to invest in the US economy and to build property property plant and equipment. As I call it Capex on the other hand we tax property plant equipment by taxing steel aluminum. That's exactly what you need to build property property plant equipment. You don't go build a factory without using steel and aluminum so we give tax incentive on one hand but we take it right back on the tariffs so to me. It's a zero-sum game you're not incentivizing people to do what we want them to do. My my sense is he's going to cut a deal because he has to cut a deal. You can't go into the election. With the Mid West still laboring under these agricultural tariffs And some of the industrial tariffs are are also so. I think he'll do what trump does house which is to is to cut a deal declare victory and call it the greatest deal ever. Well I I would like to see that happen. I was more optimistic before I was in China last week interesting Last question Would you vote for Donald Trump again or are you may not voted for the first time. I don't know but I mean what Whoa do you having seen. What you've seen from the inside Would you Would you feel comfortable supporting him. So I think you have to give the president some credit for I'd give him credit for what he's done on tax reform. I have to give him credit. That's sort of your. You're a big a big chunk of it. Was My Powell now. I didn't agree. I didn't agree with everything in there. as as we've discussed certain things I would have gone more neutron neutral on I think that some of the reform that we've done in various industries where I think the regulatory pendulum had swung too far lar. We we've gotten back to a what I consider a neutral state meaning we still have regulation and it's good regulation but we're not over-regulated and some of the economic growth issues are there were three and a half percent unemployment in the United States. We've got three percent wage growth so on the economic side of the equation. You you you. I'm pretty pleased with what I see. That said I would wait and see what the other candidate looks like on the other side. What their policies are what their platform about this issue of institutional integrity that you spoke about earlier That seems to be the central question which is are are. Is there a regard for the rule of law the the the importance and the privacy of other institutions and respect for those. And how important is that. Look it's very important to me. You know have it was. It was really important to me. Having never served in the government having served served in government I would say it's exponentially important to me to understand the silos of government checks and balances is the independence of the various agencies. You're the president. Gets the right to appoint members they can consent of the Senate and that's his ability to his or her maybe her Ability to control these agencies but once you appoint them they act his independent agencies and to their credit we have an unbelievable history in this country of the heads of agencies taking those responsibilities abilities very seriously and trying to act in the best interest of the United States and trying in somewhat delete politics out of these things and that to me is very vary employees. We've seen them all testifying or a bunch of them in these impeachment hearings. Were you surprised when this impeachment came up. I mean the Ukraine issue in particular dealer or does it comport with your experience. I I wasn't there during any of this so But the way get him down the freezing of the funds I guess I was surprised by it. I guess I'm surprised by it. Because it in many respects Y-yo the Congress Congress authorizes funding and you would assume when Congress authorized fundings that these things go through like I i. I never thought for a second wives in the government government Once you know it went through the proper legislative channels of authorizations and appropriations and spending that it didn't get spent. I assume the Dow spent it plus. Yeah everything I saw. They spent one hundred percent of what we gave them. Plus a little bit more and it seems like maybe this is a consequence of you. Were talking about before. Which is the absence of people people to say now it? I don't know but it may be Gary Cohn it's great to be with you. I could talk for another several hours with you. And you're gonNA talk to An audience here at the university in a little bit. And we're grateful for that. Thank you for for your time. Thank you thank you for listening to the files presented by Luminary Media and the University of Sakado Institute of Politics the executive producer of the X.. Files is emily standards. This show is also produced. By Aaron Buckner Samantha. Neil Katie. O'Brien and Allison Siegel for more programming from the IOP visit politics dot US Chicago Dot Edu. Thanks so much for listening to this episode and remember you can hear all the newest episodes of the show by signing up for luminary premium. Right now at a special limited time holiday offer three ninety nine a month for a full year and you can cancel anytime just go to luminary. PODCAST DOT COM. This offer is available. Global only in the U._S.. U._K. Canada and Australia pricing subject to local currency offer expires December fourth. Twenty nineteen and terms apply. That's luminary PODCASTS DOT COM.

president United States Cleveland donald trump Goldman Sachs Charlottesville America Goldmans Goldman National Economic Council Europe Gary Cohn Institute of Politics Laguardia Cleveland Ohio Poland Institute of Politics Wchs Ellis
Per Besson  On The Road To Turkmenistan CORRECTED

Counting Countries

1:40:45 hr | 1 year ago

Per Besson On The Road To Turkmenistan CORRECTED

"Hello I'm Harry mid CDs and I was the very first guest own counting countries quite awhile back and I'm the founder of no mat mania where rick hosts the Nomomania podcast. I've done all the countries of the world and I'm trying to do the mall once again and today I'm very happy to be introducing PAB song on my favorite podcast counting countries with a membership of only around one hundred it's one of the most exclusive clubs on earth and in fact more people have been to outer space than have earned earned their way into this the ultimate travel club according to the United Nations there are one hundred ninety three sovereign nations in the the word welcome to the only podcast that brings you the stories from the dedicated few who spent their lives on the singular quest of traveling willing to them all welcome to counting countries with your host Rick Gazarian. Hey now I'm your host rick is Aaron. I had the great opportunity to sit down with pair. Besson we met in person at the extreme travel international congress where pair did a lot of great organizing for the event at the principality of Sealand following week we met I I some great George and Food and sat down to do an interview in person my apologies. This episode was recorded in the hotel lobby in London in their some background noise. I'm reminding you that counting countries is partnered with Patriots on Petri on is a platform that allows you to support me in my creation of counting countries. You can join other patrons like. Ted Be some miles. Ryan Gasden had him Hickman so as thanks they're able to listen to additional interviews like the one I did with pair after the one that you're hearing accounting countries is offering its first group tour to Bhutan in November of this year you can go to Global Gazza and see the details and we're having another tour in August of twenty twenty two Madagascar powered by g adventures use my link to book your tours with G. Whether you're going to Madagascar gas scar. Antarctica swale barred Galapagos pair has led a fascinating life including visiting every country in the world world according to Nomad Menia. He's a top one hundred traveller after college pair embarked on pneumatic life living for multiple years in in Europe China Brazil and he has an insatiable thirst for warning multiple languages and this is an integral part of his travels. I encourage you to subscribe wherever you listen apple podcast Google play at your spotify even Alexa writer review why that to to keep the podcast going but for now here's my conversation with pair from the big smoke better known as London. Please listen men and enjoy it's great to be sitting with you param hooping you can take a moment and introduce yourself by service and I am from the US despite my name pair mothers from Denmark fires from the US tax limit in Germany and moved the US when I was four workgroup and Oregon grew up in Oregon with unusual name grew up as a pretty all American kit. What was your father doing in Germany. My father is unusual. Oh story my father was in the navy graduated from Naval Academy class of Nineteen thirty five. He went to war will to the South Pacific after the war in Europe and in an Asia retired in nineteen fifty-nine went to German might my mother the dental clinic a dental assistant. They got married or brother. It was worn I was born. We moved to Oregon so I started life in sort of by continental a family in pair. I did notice you have great tea. So maybe that has something to do with your mother. Skill set in good practices so I'm hearing the initial onset of a very global upbringing so taking a look at that always asked what is your travel. DNA in other words with travel big part of your life growing up and how did your parents act as a catalyst if it was the case will let as I said before it started off international left. Ah Frankfurt Germany at age for went to Oregon pre altering kid they literally baseball you know soccer football as they say in your on basketball but every three years and went to your my mother so at age eight at age eleven eight fourteen and those initial seeds for being open to Europe and then my second year of university I went for a year is exchange student in Germany and that year. I just went crazy traveling. I travel maybe twenty-five countries. Those were the years you're old pass. INTERRO pass get on a train consecutive nights do tourism during the day sleeping leaving the train at night sometimes three or four nights in a row and age twenty when back to the states finished up college is twenty one. I left the US been outside the US pretty much all my life since okay. Let's go back because I'm I'm curious about the situation in your home I think you said Danish mother so what we speaking growing up was the father speaking English mother. Speaking Danish did not work. That's a good question actually sleep when my brother was born my mom would speak Danish and some English to him my father speak English. My brother sort of grew up a little bit confused. I don't think he released her first word about three in the car and the across on retracts and he said wrote tracks and with me that sentence McClure Lamar Clear Danish my mother English from my father but we go to the states you grew up in pretty much white bird America in Oregon a suburb of Portland when your mom speaks do in a funny language in front of your friends see mom stopped at that's weird and so I sort of put Danish in dormancy toward my teenage cheers and then I sort of setting Spanish in school when I was ten eleven Germany was fifteen picked up Danish again got back on the language track. What's it like DOC spending those summers in Denmark with your mother was just what you're familiar with or you knew it. Was something different that your classmates. I'm doing what type of impacted that have on you spending a couple months every couple of years in Europe. I felt really special because I in oratory group. Uh No one really traveled to Europe. So we go to a little bit we go to to Germany and then we'd also take some foot by train down through France to Spain. Mom was superfan. Spain so we go down by train and there was something really seductive. Click clack of traveling by train back and forth on high-speed trains. It's another new air conditioning the windows open it's summer and you and you sort of lulled to sleep by the sound of the even rails and so that was a six seven weeks Germany Denmark with the family and then maybe to Spain one year A to Austria but little sort of increasing increasing my comfort zone in concentric circles the little by little during my teenage years and finally going back to study when I was a second year student in college the Romantic age of train travel no maglev trains and during that time carry and pair as a observer river as a visitor. Were you noticing differences between your upbringing in Oregon in Europe or did it not it did not register with your new like Oh. This is so interesting. It's different. It's beautiful or oh. Everything's the same except the coach will a bit different incised in the US mill milliliters instead. I think at that age eighty eight eleven fifteen I'm still pretty American. You know I would say I sound for America and I was still really wasn't so Logan Outlook quite yet and then I think you know when I started learning Ernie languages once you learn language. It's a form of perspective taking so when I was fourteen already spoke a little decent decent in Spanish but it really changed when the moment I left the US eighteen so as eighteen twenty nineteen leaving the summer before school oh you're in Germany and turn nineteen on the road traveling backpacking through Europe two months with a two month a real past like four hundred dollars for two months like six bucks a day and you just sleep it on the on the train one nine. Maybe another night in a hostile your picnic. I think my budget that was like twenty three through dollars. Everything included every day. It's trains Picnic lunches youth hostels. What were you traveling by yourself during that. That's a yeah I actually when I was you know in high school for Susan Collins. It's actually pretty wide introverted but that year Germany's from transformed me with the background sound of Europe. If you're by yourself in your safe space back home you could be introverted. Shy and that's okay if you're traveling and you don't interact Mike for People you can feel pretty lonely pretty quickly and so that develops the skill set of interaction with people and stay Lonely League or interact. How were you confident in brave enough to do that as an eighteen year old in other words I was starting university. When I was eighteen. It was seven miles down the road from where I grew up. I was in Europe. I was on Cape Cod Ninety minutes away from Boston. So what what what was inside of you that said okay. I'm going to go travel by myself independently for a couple of months. I think PARV riches navy today if you don't they later on when you start realizing danger maybe maybe you do less to things. Usually things are safe into their not so as eighteen turning nineteen actually wasn't a very confident person. I I started traveling aveling than even started hitchhiking on weekends. I was nervous in Germany. I just go for the weekend and Hitchhike and so my best language german-language practice hitchhiked second in speaking German all the time of course when you're back in the University of meeting your best friends are also Americans and other foreigners so I really learned that in also when you when you hitchhiking you sort of all the person conversation which is very good for your German skills so I took long trips on weekends are leave on Friday. Eddie comeback like an honest Sunday and that really increased my confidence in my best treasury hitchhiking is not sending by the road is getting on the whole Autobahn von Network and where you're at arrest the gas station with a car stop and you can identify their license plates because just like an in the US you have lessened by state and there's more specifically by city so you see an F. Funk foot sin H. Lamar tricky. It's Honda dot humbled and is Munich. The big cities get their one literature nominations. The small towns longer. Ones are pretty soon you memorize if you slip into. France is tricky. They have numbers that correspond to the city's Paris's Paris seventy five Leong at sixty nine niece zero six and he pretty soon. You're traveling. You're talking to people in the rest stops in your excuse me I'm I'm American student trying to travel there and you learn to interact you learn to to connect with people and it's a huge drone learning experience settle at some level you felt under pressure to perform and entertain as a way to compensate the driver to your next destination deafening also little fun story late. I really value language and I earlier age whenever I was talking to person Persson who spoke a language arts book at Really WanNA speak their language but it's funny when I started asking people and rest stops in German. Excuse me are you going this direction. Sometimes they thought I was driven by a German accent pretty good and then actually learned sometimes. It's better speaking English. Excuse me to speak English and they stop for a moment. I speak in English. I Say I'm an American soon. The trains are real expensive. I saw your license plate. Are you practicing wounding eunuch. So sometimes it's good is the language sometimes it's best best to sort of soft pedaled a bit and speak English than work in the German later on. Did you ever have a bad negative experience hitchhiking checking to the worst experience. You have just bad drivers. My worst experience was always hate taking with a friend of mine from Freiburg wherever study which is the corner it goes to Francis which into Paris and a guy owner guy very poor driver think a little bit senile sort of swerving back back and forth I be sleeping in the back and there'd be cars honking waking me up who's driving so badly and we actually had US pay money for part of the trip to so he wasn't too high tech experience in because we had to pay and also was wasn't a very pleasant experience either okay so care after university you left America. You moved. Where did you set up shop first overseas so I went to noon Beg for six six months. Okay so what I WANNA know right here is. Why are you so different so I can imagine you said you had kind of an all American background or childhood childhood. How many your classmates from university left America to start a new life in Europe. I'm guessing it close to zero if not ought here on that's a good point. I've been back from reunions tend to the twentieth and maybe the ones that are left the action ever come back through unions but I think really having European mother and that connection made me unusual year in Germany really opened my mind to the world so it was a natural progression to go to Germany. It's a natural progression but it also could have been a natural progression not to go to Germany in other words you graduate university the career. the companies are coming to recruit people on campus of your fans. Go I gotta drop here. I got a job year staying in Oregon a moving to New York. What were you thinking thinking. What's your rationale. What was the catalyst for you to say you know what this existence of Americana Start Good. I need something different something. I'm yearning for something different. How're you so different or braver adventurous to set up shop in Germany. When you're twenty one twenty two years old will actually that year in in Europe from eighteen to nineteen nineteen twenty two fourteen months was so formative so stimulating. I couldn't imagine imagine not going back to Europe so I came back and join Isaac which is a student organization that she brings interns from abroad to work in Oregon and sends interns work abroad in Europe became a natural bridge to go work in Germany. Okay so you set up shop in Germany said Nuremberg and would you noticing noticing. What are the differences. Would you saying like Oh. We do things in America this way. Germany is the same. It's different your antlers gawping when you're working. Here's a lot different than just taking a train around. What are your some of your things that you're picking up on it definitely in that phase in live. I'm still pretty the American thinking. Oh back in the US this way. This is strange here. The Germans could be stiff. They could be so formal you go to a party and they WANNA talk about environmental pollution. You see your American front across the room. We seize your stuff talk to Germany. I who's like super sincere earnest talk a serious issue in your party you realize the Germans are the Americans Have Square Germans or even more more more more square and it's easy to judge the negative way and I think I do and then after a while you realize the way they do things a function in their context so in other words a great way to meet a young lady at a cocktail party talking about carbon capture something of that nature and in Germany before the carbon capture resulted even certainly there's this idea of like being very you know straight to the point heavy. Some serious serious might say it's very very common among Germans. Who've gone to the US say? Americans can be so superficial. I've talked to at least thirty forty. Germans have gone to the US exchange student. The stories are always say the first week I was. There is making friends exchange for numbers. No one calls me and they say they say many Americans against our so superficial so it's a different community communication style. I believe Americans know what the code is for friendship among other Americans the the Germans haven't read the code but when you go into conversely if you go to a new culture you've got to read Americans have to read German code. Does that mean something. Thank you meaning someone. WHO's a polyglot like yourself is that part of the interest or the magic of traveling for you and learning language is to be detective and being able to pick up on these cultural differences and you want this definite this idea that there's a certain behavior heater in under the behaviors attitude and under the editors underlying evalu- difference and it is sort of been a culture detective so why or Germans a certain way why or Americans one way. Why do Americans judge Germans harshly in vice versa okay so set up shop? You'll living in Germany from understanding. You're also bouncing around in Europe for a number of years. What was one of the either neither of of some of the places that you live which was one of your preferred or favorite grain experience for you what I evolved from the German reality live in Frankfurt also and I moved southwards was in Portugal and that was more of a Latin Latins. Were things aren't releasing literal. It's more important personal relationships relationships than rules so emotions and people are more important than just rules written on on sheep or laws. That's that's a huge difference. It's okay and coming from a Danish background hunt and from what I heard a navy slash German father with which one resonates with you more is the German rules based society or what you're saying the southern Europe emotions. Which one did you what what which one did you feel comfortable with very right right because you know earlier my comfort zone exactly that predictable things people don't talk too loud not emotional emotional. Don't touch you when they talk as the White Burn American Comfort Zone and then there's something very seductive as you go farther south people off when you talk to them. There's always emotion along with information he asked for retirement is going to be a smile. There's going to be like a human moment. You ask someone in in more more northern climes. They'll tell you out of politeness in this we should do. You're listening sense their presence. Thank you from the south. China became more and more Latin Latin in Portugal. Italy like non especially aren't Super Latin. I was moving towards more Latin mindset and so you mentioned Italy mentioned Portugal. Where did you enjoy living more usually the I think there's sort of a privacy heck we I go to in one direction. It's really really marks you so porch was more towards the Latin sort of Lazy Fair of course portion that time is before lock low cost airlines as they say in in Portugal Portugal rubber say Portugal is on the ass of Europe is on the tail end. People didn't fly in three green. Here's in Europe. I took a total of three flights. No one took flights trains right Jay. Hitchhike wants from Sweden Portugal so that was that was SORTA stretch. Their incumbent on Milan is actually pretty structured and Milanez aren't the Times that we imagine some of the very very structured pictured reform. Will there not like the ones you have the time Americans you haven't US Chicago. What's your collaborator says? She Napoli these guys. Are you seem more like German when the time and you spend how many years in Europe on that run total so three and a half years was Germany Portugal Italy and then parents okay self four pretty well-known very good sized. I used European countries distinct different. What's cuisine for a second. What of those countries those four? Who has the best food? That's that's a great question left at the baby through. There's one there's some types of foods you can say. Would you enjoy this food today. Would you liked this food for thirty days. In the tire month the some foods ended fill the bill. Certainly Italy this sort of north to South Tom. Country of a lot of kayaking zones in a huge diversity food so it's I it would be my favorite of the three Portugal for like a she was Pacific dishes and like seafood seafood number. We got that much into French cuisine but when I worked at the national making Kuwait I worked in the shown these eight at subsidized canteen close by so I'm living. I'm living I'm working shows say I'm living in maid's quarters ah with nine square meters but I'm going to work at a certain certain tie and three blocks away. There is a canteen shared by a number of banks and there's subsidize move. It's like four dollars or everything in like a rotating menu fifty different cheeses that sounds and I would go like I do you know the soup the salad the main course the cheese and the desert every single day so I had like really really good good French as well so oh several years jumping around quite a bit living in multiple places why so in other words why wasn't Nuremberg good enough why was in Frankfurt good good enough. Why didn't you settle down what was going on that was propelling you to go and set up shop in reinvent yourself from committing new friends to learning how to work at this corporation to worry about the regulations and rules of the country and then trying were the language again why why not just set up shop permanently or at least for a while longer in one of the places action serve that planet at the beginning I might go back to the states to NBA and before my Mba sort of a euro specialists and learn the main languages in Europe and because I spoke Spanish had pretty good leverage in Portuguese Italian French German. I spoke Spanish has like alone. There's other languages and having pretty a good background. NBA I be ready to go to Europe and XP really well positioned in Europe. That's the story you tell yourself. How how how you can enjoy something have a practical side to it. That's good for your career in the future. I mean what I'm hearing is pretty sharp. You're focused guy who has planned out his life by developing these great skill set to propel himself into his career later in life so quite interesting and quite impressive so are you saying left. Europe to do your MBA back in the statement against so you head back to the states do your Mba an and then what what's the game plan will actually I've applied from an NBA like three to enter three or four years later and yeah so I go. I go back from MBA and before when did my MBA. I traveled through South America and my Charleston South America we realize Europe is the only place in the world twenty thousand kilometers by bus are longtime in Brazil so did my mba and it was clear to me. I'm just going to Brazil okay. What attracted you. The Brazil's capital is at the beach is if the girl let's little bit all of the above but this what I expected export in my time in southern Europe for the warmth of people few that in spades in Brazil there is there is in certain countries the big lapse between sort of as stimulus and reactions people think things through in Brazil people are spontaneous India's warm Brazilians liked to like they give the benefit of the doubt. There's goodwill most Brazilians. I Emilia Brazilian restaurants your Brazilian the guy's GonNa stop. I'm GonNa talk to the person the person who's watching US things. We've been friends for years. There's GonNa be this warmth of expression this acceptance you feel from even complete strangers and Brazil's your say obviously a huge country a lot to see and everything thing and I just feel really connected and my plans for Eurocentrism and your specialty change they got derailed and after doing the also works expense expense in Argentina for General Motors and I went down to Brazil with no job just sending a resume I networked and I got a job an American multinational great pair. You spent a lot of time in Brazil in the country. What's a Musi place beside the obvious Rio love or you know guys who falls. What would I need to see. When I'm going down to Brazil I find like Kamata the the smaller less known beach towns in northeast people in some Paulo our friendly by most world standards in real the friendly in this very relaxed more. Los Angelino way of easy. Come easy go the freedom of everybody the stereotype three times that just come out come by whenever you want. Give me a call and say what's your phone number so super open no barrier to entry into conversation when you go to northeastern Brazil Salvador his see for another how and the people are just so simple in a good way. There's nothing complex about airs or ego is just warmth. Complete warmth we traveled on the northeast describes your heart okay so the Maki narrowed it down had been theriault couple of times. I've been to the beaches of boozy. Oh that's it for me. Tell me one other place. I need to go now. Salvador thereby Salvador Salvador is a city with amazing carnival. It's also city with eighty percent black different shades of black I mean in. US is fairly known the risen so much mixing we joke in Brazil all shaved from Espresso to cheer him on the news. This is amazing warmth in Washington spontaneity one place definite recommend. I spent few carnivals in some other. There's an island off the coast of Salvator Mundi Sao Paulo so I spent three consecutive years. What's called the hangover of carnival. You go through detox but never actually because you keep on drinking you drink. It's like five six in the morning and watch the sunrise. You sleep then you grab lunch at the same way for three or four days and there's no cars in the island. You're everything is on foot and usually you even use leave. Your flops at home. Saw Barefoot signed me up for twenty twenty. I know there's another big move in your life and you lived in China for a number of years so you know I can see progression no. US similar enough to Europe Europe Europe similar enough to Brazil China. Obviously there's lacking a lot of similarities between these three continents. How did you end up living in China China's a big jump for from anywhere and to say that I left some Paul. I'm moved on the way to China move to Milan was ever three or four years in the meantime I had traveled released and got a job with tourism to Libya. I'm on Libya's complicated from time to time no more visas for Americans so no more were and I traveled through Asia. I I took a long trip Bali to kill by land and by sea passing through China arrived there in May three and is most places probably in springtime springtime. You know there's this energy and there's energy in China Star with in spring even more and I passed through China and I said this is the next thing for me. So so what year is that when you pass through so I left him Brazil two dozen three and two thousand and seven thousand six three and in two thousand and seven I moved to China okay in your passing through China was there a light bulb moment would be said not passing through China. I'm not traveling through China. I'm living in China came through a came through China and the China five years before and I if you ask me then would ever live in China. There is no way was even a distinct possibility not an whatsoever but golden China that time tourism finish up Libya. I need to look for the next big thing and the Kirby what would it look like if I took a deeper deeper trip in China okay and so when again China troubling steady Chinese why traveled two months steady Chinese unease. I thought it was a good language student until I've said Chinese and I said Chinese is just too tough to study cash. I want to move to China so I moved to China in Beijing and I went to language school and I got a series of jobs and Internet companies and I stayed thirty super. One two years and I ended up seeing more than seven. was that at level at any level for you meaning. I've heard you speak speech in Multiple Languages to native speakers Germany Portuguese over the weekend when we met for the first time I mean not that I speak either language. It sounds like you're in need of to me so obviously you're. You're you have a natural talent at some level for speaking these languages. So what was it a little punch attention the mouth back to China and I mean you weren't picking it up like you magically seem to pick up these other guidance based languages he'll come up and says a great word for I think we all sort of development identity and reasoning for special and because I learned to for language I thought it was a language guy and that sort of worked in in in Europeana you also I was living fooled because he spoke Spanish going to other Latin languages you get so much traction so quickly all of a sudden you're up and running and I started learning Chinese and it just it hardly sticks it for example. If you have a word in English revolution a Spanish Sean M- Italian Hebrew Psalm Portuguese every show in French and someone tells you that's the way it is. You're never gonNA forget your tire life if someone tells you that in Chinese it's good me tell you that you know you merged. Forget forget. Maybe the ten th time you you get it right. Get the tones owns wrong and come up in punched in the mouth. It's just an assault on your ego and angry. I just buckled down slide pushed and also I started studying Chinese. When thirty eight I think biologically were engineered to learn willing to three so what's the processor utilizing the news that you said school so there's that me once a week but knowing you little idea I mean I wouldn't be surprised if you told me that was school five days so we get it with a tutor on the side so how does a pair start mastering in Mandarin assuming how do you start mastering mandarin and when you're living in China while I was in class every day and then and then do homework on the side and then after the six months with Finnish still you don't really feel them which which Fox because if you learn a few learn four languages before you know in relative terms. What is to be somewhat fluent because you have a parameter? It was two First Ladies Awhile. I'm just doing okay. I'm improving every day but if you have a parameters will I've actually so far behind what imagine but later on a where really gotten habit of doing was listen to podcasts casts Chinese there is there's a there's a psycho Chinese pod and they've got like my two thousand lessons okay and I would just like steady steady amount every day before before work. I do an hour of Chinese and then every waking moment that I'm not using my brain. I'm walking somewhere. It's it's Chinese. I'm brushing. My teeth is Chinese. I get so much in the habit of finding times of the day record poor in Chinese that when it stops it in Chinese I found podcasts and that's one reason I found your podcast. Was I was going to say I'm sure those podcasts were extremely destructive but nowhere is entertaining discounting discount country. You know what it's different different charm and a pair what what's in I from what I gather you became. Komo relatively are very proficient in Chinese. What's the reactions you get from the locals. When you bust your Mandarin Grin and more specifically not in the Shanghai or Beijing you're in a smaller town that doesn't get as many Gweilos and believe they're called. I mean in it. Kennedy's Gwendal Ghost Waco's so I mean do you have any. Is there any funny stories like you roll out of the bus station in a fourth appear town which is still two million China start busting out your mandarin people are shocked surprised or they just ah the bus stations over to the left and Chinese. Will you get these different reactions. One reaction is they don't even think speaking Chinese because they can't imagine there's a common thing argue. Sometimes people turn their head and they raise their hand like this another Alex. I am sorry I don't understand what you're saying because they don't think you're understand and then they realize you're speaking Chinese and they look at you like this and there is a wide and it's I'm for sure to I supposed to foreigner but like you said fourth year city in in China two million people even a second tier city in China with eight million. The people say you go into downtown walking street. That's big C for an hour. You don't see a single western face sometimes entire hour so so a couple of anecdotes there on one when I'm in a in a train station in unwed province speaking Chinese people in mine nine and a and a guy would be is he comes from the countryside he sees me. Are you a foreigner Nisha Alabama. Are you a forty. Just want to confirm firm so we can go back to the village these it actually talked to foreigner. I said want to tell you the truth. We actually said why grandma and why were means outside country person. I said you know when I leave my country and go to any of the two hundred countries in the world. I'm afford if you leave your country. You're a foreigner to another interesting anecdote. I'm traveling western China. I go into a train compartment and then a person's person Chinese in the person says what what minority are you because in western China again. There's fifty six minorities in China but there's also a cosmic wego minority of course the Hon minority. You're are ninety percent and he's like speak Chinese. He must be Chinese for different minority so invented as the fifty seventh minority. It's the foreign on friend minority that Chinese is gone. Why Polio is at four four four hundred fifty seven minority in order to that's pretty awesome okay and same question I give you for Brazil besides the known places places Yawn Shanghai Beijing and Union province. Where is somewhere? I need to go in China. I have a real affinity for western China Xinjiang region of course Tibet if everybody's GonNa go to that but she john in those those minority brothers like we've your Kazaks Pajic kid gets okay and when you say the western part of China this is the area where Muslims are prevalent in we have been in the news quite a bit unfortunately in the real negative way with basically concentration Russian camps and extreme surveillance but what is attracting you to this non Hanish region of China. I'm I'm really enchanted by the whole concept of the Silk Road this transition between Asia in your and you go western China go do cheat or cheat caller go down towards the car comb highway cash car Kasha they call it in Chinese and that sort of the breath caravan route of going towards towards the West the whole story behind it fascinates me okay so I spent a a very short period of time and Ramji and Turpin interesting visit from me. You know this area better than me. What when get to that region. What's a must see place or a must unique experience to partaken. I think for me because I was was such a long time to eastern China. I was rather delighted by once took through Central Asia on the way back in through has Exxon to the very very north tip tippy tippy top of Xinjiang up by the Russian border by Russia Altai and you go there and you have you. Have you know greet greenhills. You've got at the you're the Kazakhs rushing rivers it just furry counterintuitive tweet expected to China yeah exactly. I don't think anybody buddy thinks China. I mean I'm sure the first image is the Great Paul China or the glitzy neon filled streets a Shanghai most most people are not aware of and do not know the western part of China and how different it is pair. You are in the wheat individual individual. You are one of approximately give or take two hundred individuals who've been to every country in the world one hundred ninety three sovereign. UNH The UN nation. We've heard a ton about your background air travels. What was the day we decided needed. Seeing a lot of countries is not enough. I need to see them all. How did you arrive to that decision. I think gradually got thanks. I was living in South America Europe Asia and maybe the moment of the piff needed was possible was that I took a trip to North Korea with quarrier tours. Which is the group that takes a lot of foreigners to to North Korea and I haven't been to Central Asia and I hadn't gone into administration and I had experienced? That's one good time with a guide driver myself and going individual trial with guide and the driver and don't necessarily click with them. They're not responsive. Sponsor is not a very fun experience. If you like you being you're the big one the big hunter with his entourage and I knew the cordial tours organized trip to Stan. Dan said if they're GONNA took Minnesota Koryo tours they probably go to North Korea to this is a pretty interesting group in how right I was probably six seven the people in triple more trouble than I was and I was. I was blown away. I thought it was well traveled. You sit down with the groove over lunch Richard Dinner and like there's a table and they've all been to wander and hardy scratches service of Africa and I by that time I've been to maybe ninety ninety five countries as I said what's all very possible when the guy had been to all countries but to and through three before missing before we went to medicine and a few other one hundred sixty I said wow and I was inspired. I mean when you when you meet other real travelers you don't want to some people used to tell your stories you meet them. You don't want anything you just want to listen to their stories and is there any names you can share. I e these are people known known within the extreme travel community. There was one guy he's actually he's very well known in Argentina. He sort of a a leftist photographer talk for a guy who spent nine months in in Africa slow and low to the ground is it was Pablo Secrets Moldy and there was one guy I think is Abe is like David and he was he was in the Canadian Foreign Service and he was stationed on bases in the world. Roland strategically got the world but those were those were not ones are active in the community now those two really when they struck me. Hello the problem David. If you're listening show is what year was that that was in two thousand and thirteen okay two thousand and thirteen the lightbulb bulb moment goes on you meet these extremely well travelled individuals. Do you start now investigating and making lists than looking at your maps in addition to searching out in finding a other one ninety three years or reading other travel blogs. What's what's the process is there. I was I was pretty isolated from from travelers. I was in China for a while until two thousand thirteen. There was a period like four years on and went to one new country because all my free time which is travelling in China I want I got in my mind. You know I think since I was a kid you clicked like sports cards or comic which when complete thinks sets and my set was the provinces in China and so one by one I did and finally I finished the provinces in China. I started to visit countries like Bangladesh and and east he more to the East Asia Southeast Asia finished than South Asia and then move towards Central Asia too. That's when I started to to exhaustive awesome possibilities in Asia and then I heard moving bitter towards Africa so a pair when you're collecting these countries when you're visiting and traveling in them what's your inspiration is checking UNESCO. World Heritage is is at wildlife for nature is a cities as a the museum. What what would you checking off the box when you're visiting you know as I was at a fairly primitive and travels has pretty simple in how tribal I get get a lonely planet. See what you know the things that are most visited and go do them. I think I probably have a an outsized interest in history like I wonder understand what is behind the country. We have today. Why is it country different than its neighbour and so I really take a lot of interest like national national and of course I see all the main sites of the whatever's the temple or the Moscow were church and if there's h really WanNa see I can do of his music festival but awesome point. You're sitting just a history culture understand. Why is it country unique. Is there a country that stands out for your interest I in that country in terms of history like countries historical past. You find extremely interesting compelling actually I'm. I've started going deep in Africa. I sorta read a lot of books on African history and the interesting thing is your fifty four countries and there's a clinical period the post colonial period and fifty four chapters of different different variations and I find that absolutely fascinating how to see how varied by I British presence French President's presence and then post liberation so independence what happened to them the choice of leaders of the lack of choice leaders leaders is the country a family business passed onto father and son and I get really I sort of put on my historians had or in terms of interest. She was in history especially. When I was travelling through Africa. Let's like fifty four different laboratory experiments when they made that transition and going back back in time to any time period to any country or region. Where would you choose if you had that time machine to a live in or visit to to visit you know I've been been enchanted by way of trial. I think the first time I heard description that web travel. Is You actually use the word the term let me borrow your your term that you've used the term is slow in low. I hadn't heard that before. I think that that state's best slow on low guy. Par Excellence is Marco Polo that idea of having the skills it also of languages languages and cultures to go across negotiate across difficult terrain to go to a far off land and actually which is exotic. Russ come from the US China Magin then and that would be this sort of the person or the time period quite interested in pair travel. Are you always solo or friends or what your what as of late. I've gone to places. Is that most of the GO-TO. I've used you travel by myself. I usually don't plan too far ahead and therefore we can say lineup people to travel with but it's well in the last couple years. I ran into some extreme travelers in some cases. I've been had the chance to travel with him and I always think if you travel with the wrong person. Persson is better to try to stay at home. If you travel the right person. It's you double the pleasure and you you you. You cut in half the hassle and you have great stories to share for the rest of your life. That is true. It's obvious you're stating. It's the risk. If you ended up with the bad apple you could ruin friendships by child with the wrong right with the wrong good friend. That's true pair hiding pack. Would you traveling with when you're hitting the road or is back in the day. I would pack for things just in case. I'd have my dancing shoes just in case because I don't really mind carried a big pack back. You know the standard pack like twenty twenty five kilos. If you get space why not Schlep it along and so by books along the way that humilate I'd have you know four or five types of footwear and then over time the last like since two thousand thirteen fourteen now I travel with one backpack which is backpack but not out of place on a college campus and I have a super easy packing strategy recently more to warmer places. It's like one long pants since shorts tennis shoes flipflops four quick dry shirts once in a longer lungs put. Dr One windbreaker and occasionally usually have traveled from coal places to the southern Southern Hemisphere where I'm leave where I am. It's really cold outside. Maybe below zero and that's all I have and my backpack epoch empty because they weren't all my clothes. Do you know twenty thirty pushups with backpack on and warm up and go out and handle transportation get to the a report and then do the strip-tease basically take off all those. I have on input in my backpack in an office. I go Kay some good tips out there and one hundred ninety three countries. What's one of your favorite places you've ever. I know you asked a question all the time. It's funny that I haven't Relieve League. You didn't prepare but responded. I didn't do my homework and this let me just preface by saying that one could ask a question a lot. I'm going to answer your question Russian but let me give a preface to say that people asking the question. I said you know we if you ask her mother. Who is the favorite child. especially you know that the hero mother of of you of China's revolution or these societies maybe children there have ten children and they had their love child a different way so I I love certain countries. Further landscape certain countries for architecture certain countries for the people certain for the food in certain countries for the store moment that you're living in your shoot. You're part of history like China can be so greedy and rough but we whatever's in China for seven years. This is part of history. This is a period of transition so to answer your question. Try to answer your question. Obviously it's unfair to say the country lived long time because you have these emotional connections to it but let me mention a few places places that I find sort of little treasures and really pleasantly surprised me on one of those was late breaking a fossil people in British also are so amazingly smooth in warm wherever you arrived to come in the door arrive in the airports. We're not even like It's good arrival. Everything is welcome. Welcome welcome one country where I really felt walk. I felt real connection. May that's the reason why I worked for. Libyan tours of a couple of years Libya Libya was closed off to American for for for twenty the years. I just arrived in Italy from Brazil. I discovered you can go to Libya's American. I wrote ten tour operators. They say oh you. WanNa come here. You have to have a guide. You have a driver by the Wisconsin Twenty dollars a day and I wrote Tan. One guy was a little more flexible and I wrote to my I said if I translate your website from your English to my English you can work with me a little more flexible so he let me be a little no more flexible and this guy made his whole family and I worked with tourism to Libya and I travel a lot has a very special connection for me and Libyans. Libyans didn't really have tourism you go you go to a buy something and they say the price has say ten. You say five you go. Oh it's it's ten do not use to bargain to go to Egypt for him. Rock up use tossing Egypt or Libya was the land that time forgot they had oil oil money in their cut off from the world in the people this simplicity in this warmth away from the Capitalist Society of need to rush around and make money. Wow that's a place. I think we'd all like to visit and possibly even living okay. This is a quick grounds this year so with your previous statement favorite country landscape wise Jus- this come up with one and bang it out a one one one lands almost made me cry is arrive in the in the desert in in the Sahara in Libya in the morning when the in the lightest strikes a certain way you see these dunes which like twitter meters high and I almost cried pre-k McKay and favourite big city. I was really struck by by Tokyo. When I first I went there. Were just for me. I went to Japan for time in ninety five and so is my first time in Asia and it's so struck me that everything was so different. Did I miss functionally by different rules that I was really struck by the because of a certain primacy effect the first time loan to exotic distillation distillation took released stuck in my mind okay and we sh- we've been speaking but favorites and superlatives and great things what's a bad bad thing a least favorite place I find like the worst experience make the best stories but if you survive them all's good uh-huh I've luckily survived everything without much no last Amazon any case whatsoever the only time that had really difficult experience set at Border the only time I had actually bribed someone in fifty four countries in Africa was Nigeria and I would still put Nigeria is one one of my top ten countries in Africa where I feel really special experience because it's it's such a it's such a universe in of itself breath for one hundred ninety million people. It's rough. It's edgy. You feel special. Be there and I crossed. I'm Nigeria by land from from across across West Africa. I came down beneath came across three years ago. I get to the other the other side and the and the guy takes. My passport takes in the back room. He says comeback this guy smiling. The Cheshire cat smile means you overstay your visa. I said I got my transit visa in the this is for ten days eight. Suzano doesn't matter look look where you're stamped in entry. It was scrawled some seventy two hours. You overstay your visa. I five days in one thing you WanNa do Nigeria's. Make sure all your papers order any small thing that your paperwork your passport. They're gonNA try to you and this is a big thing. Five days over state and it's that creative rather unpleasant situation on which I finally got out of but it was just super draining I mean I just all Madryn was which is which is pumped out of me and I finally got to Cameroon. I was finally a lot of Nigerians it was it was a tough experience. It was one of my best travel stories a lot of small served details on it but but by when you basis we can we can drive you back five hours the main city you can sort it out there. One Guy said then another checkpoint one for they said you know we can charge a thousand dollar. Fine overstated says there's a series of negotiation that went on and it finally worked out but it was it was it was it was a lot of stress. I mean you don't know what's going to happen. You're you're in that time. I hadn't seen a white person three or four days crossing Nigeria injury. You're you're Thir- mercy. You know what's going to happen. You're very vulnerable so what technique do utilize so. Oh you're isolated by yourself at their mercy. So is the technique compliant is aggressive serve is it a begging is a crying. What do you do Mexico question. I think some people would play the car. Righteous indignation like the embassy said this image that then I said like I'm fine spending money. I've done nothing wrong. I believe I'm fine spending money to get out of this and so I I played the the contrite foreign rusty ads true of Nigerian was in the US overstay their visa. That's the problem is finding. I've traveled plot. The guy trying to play hardball with Me Looks Passports as you've been Afghanistan. You've been Pakistan Nigeria. We have probably book he's if find the the the the the terrorist extremist agitator to his pelted harbaugh and I sort of played the Contri- guys low key no no conflict. I see you know I'm I'm. I'm willing to pay a fine. I mean I did send it was overstayed my visa so I played the play contrite hand and then he takes out a piece the paper and he has me write down. What happened why it went wrong. I'm used to this because I did this. In China something in China called all civil beeping is a self-criticism very common in the cold travel ver very common in the Cultural Revolution in fact overstayed once my visa by one day and there is a thirty day but you're the the most in lineup and I got it wrong. I went to the local. Police plays a drove in a police car to the immigration and I had to do escort yes. It was cordial everything so I'm used to the civil peeping self-criticism did that and I filled it out. You know it's for his records. After four records then I omitted show like putting my hand in my pocket and I gave him a certain amount of money I dug deep it was about about six hundred dollars which is not not much money and and he accepted it any made a phone call because this wasn't actually the border order. The purpose was a checkpoint before in call-up supposedly up ahead says by the way you have a few more checkpoints to go through okay so got back to this country. I'm in a car that I picked up in a border city. It was like it was falling apart when I got into this share taxi. All the taxi drivers left in this guy. This is one of these cars with their windows. There's no there's no handle inside the car. The panel has gone It's totally reston in everybody's laughing as a pull out of the parking lot go to the next next point. There's sort of surprised to see a white guy greet them and everything and Look Alex my password his river problem and he wants to talk about an essay we call the head and he's GonNa let me through and everything and then he says you maybe give me a souvenir renew our seeking getting spicer the souvenir side Duggan not in my Nigerian money my money and I I took out a bill on this bill was Abraham Lincoln and we know Abraham Lincoln is and how much it's worth it didn't and I said this is a souvenir of Nigerian American friendship or Abraham Lincoln in eighteen sixty three made the emancipation proclamation he said Blackman fin whitening role men in eyes of the Lord. I this is a souvenir vote of Nigerian American friendship and then he says you know so. You'll get a lot of traffic on that board. What is this worth. He is a no woods five dollars and I mean if you want to sell the souvenir then he looks guilty. Give it back to me so that I would keep on the last stop which is actually the border crossing. I come in. There's a big big guy. The New York giants Cap. It looks like job at the hut in terms of a good looking guy sharply guy any other people lining up. Everybody's paying something in line of payments for whatever it is and so we got a problem friendly but he's my passport. He knows there's a prophet profits. I think at some level the guy who took the initial bribe is calling ahead to say everybody. Get ready to get your bribe. When this guy I come through or perfect role. You're thinking Oh this is so friendly and helpful he saying. Oh let this white guy through. He already paid his bribe. Thank you consideration that you know we find ourselves. British flying blind no idea I Ryan said guy. They're back in the checkpoint. CD Talk to a manual. Oh man does off three now a says anyway you gotta pay so. I do the show of taking money out and I give we to him. Maybe she recounted is another like six dollars or so and I don't say anything you want to negotiate yourself and then he like looks at it and he says it's not enough and so I don't say anything for like two then he's all these accepting other payments the same time he's doing parallel processing and finally I take about four dollars worth a hand it to him he doesn't say anything and then he finding Musha next to him and my stamp and then I get across the border and then that was started like two or three hours of a pretty corrupt Cameroonian for guards in they validated for thirty five years whenever you have a leading the country Africa for many years the same leader. There's this whole stratified system of money made it all levels where if you support the regime. You've got your your goodies for you so the fun kept on going on well. I'm glad you made it through Nigerian Yup. I mean that that makes it more memorable than it would have been a smooth exit out of the country when we're talking about underrated. What's an underrated country region state city. That doesn't get credit. I've always been a big fan of going to Piss very few tourists. I guess they're you're under rated. There's this feeling of that explorer side of us that grew going there and we feel special because we're not the one millionth in one tourist that month and one of those places say in Africa Santa me so this is an island off the west central coast of Africa because I I come from portuguese-speaking background. Those places are extra special. Some tomato guinea-bissau goal was a couple of average and other because these are former Portuguese. Italy's correct another place. Eritrea Eritrea was was so closed off everything to sort of seem in slow motion the land that time forgot you got the the main. I don't know if you've been to era of the main main avenue. There was of a car comes sleepy bye the Italian architecture you step into fro for coffee my cattle and those places where you feel like you're you're. You're not just part of a few of tourists but you feel like you're. You're a little bit special. I agree. I thought a retrial one is underrated and I think yeah you feel a little bit special there because there's not too many tourists there pair. You've lived all over the world. Many different from places would is romance like on the road having switching travelling and moving to all sorts of different places the email. There's sort of a fantasy you're GONNA meet. You'RE GONNA meet this woman of your dreams who loves to travel on on on and somehow to connect and things are going to be not aw as much as I've traveled will have found the one on the road like that. Is there any mechanisms you utilize to meet people on the road. I think he'll be four before would travel more in youth hostels many times. You've been someone they're going the same direction you travel for a day or two one direction or another occasionally occasionally. You're lucky you you go in the same direction. It could happen that you may be changed your mind and going the same direction are sometimes you really the under too much time pressure. You really can't reverse direction. This happen probably too much like I tend to budget time fairly exactly I'd like go slow and low but I have a destination at the end. What about a most off the beaten path location shen. Is there anything that comes to mind. When you think of the places you've traveled to certain places that are that are very few tourists but they're pretty small all like yelling? Facing now is off the beaten path but you know people are gonNA show up occasionally. It's three hours to walk around the country but it would be like places like when my trip through through Bakar Chrome highway that's where I felt like. It was just in a in a in a place so far removed from the world. I came down. Uh from from China. You're traveling by land on the Karakoram highway been buried by an avalanche you had to get on to vote for hour and have get to the avalanche climb over the Ledge travel in local transportation to we twelve days to pass Pakistan I think I talked to WHO bought a train ticket once I talked to one woman. Women are invisible. Everybody's in our community. GotTa show. Welcome us as well. You feel like you're you really have no contact with a Western worth off. What makes it special. Just this one thing is to go to new APP lesson place to his various people another things go to to places. Let's head full of people like Pakistan is two hundred million people and be absent surrounded by people dressed in a different way bobby's different beliefs and you you stick out so much and I most places stick. Maybe in Sweden I'd go undercover Sweden or Denmark. I'm six four Amazon. I'm blonde when I when I have hair so I I stick out very much there. I could be a welcome I into welcome or could be a target so so when we're looking at your question that you completed a visiting every country in the world what was one of the more challenging visas but and there are a couple that I've had took awhile to get like irretrievable. You retrieve was I've heard funny veers reading the Password. Somehow I'd friends or going on a on a on a group tour when Canadian American American they applied from their countries. I went to the embassy in London. In London and I said is accurate. Apply here city sure just just call and follow up so I called. They say they've submitted is moderate. The local incumbent agency agency has never December come. I'm calling every few days for weeks and weeks. The guys hang on over resented for some reason L. of jerking me around your wet me. They have people at the immigration as Marlins. He hasn't arrived on no proof. I mean it's easy to say don't we can process you but for some reason this whole dance with like two months and had a port the mission so then how did he eventually get it eventually like a year year or so later on my found found someone to to give me these on arrival and it worked very smoothly and who is that it was it was. Kasai been honey and he's an individual who works with the airlines. They're like supplying like foreign foreign experts who need to come and fix planes so all the time. He has a process therapies. Bring them. I'm in well-connected in fact he's the my last night. There had dinner with him. He'd gone to school with the current. President Afford icke same the same generation very cool rubbing shoulders. VIP was at least I wanna go back to Libya because Libya that'd be a I mean as you said closed off from the world for so many years now. It's just a mess under civil war it's a country so many people want to visit you working with in the tourism industry. Were you working with the ministry. You've towards them or a local Torkham. Look to operator okay and were you living in Tripoli of simply Milan important groups had played out okay and will you. You do marketing sales base. I was the interface between the operator and all of the groups overcoming so and so I was that obviously I was more responsive sponsored in the competition so if it gets pretty good too of course partners from the US awesome so you were working with them three years or how a couple years okay a couple of years so How many times are you able to go down and visit or total amount of time in country said when like five or six times great and you know we all know Tripoli. We know the Sahara what share with me a top highlight of Libya would I need to say Jay one which is a little bit farther away most in Ninety Square to Tripoli in the Go-to left. US Magda love the Roman relent or subrata. There's a pyschology dumbness which is let which is sort of south west in the direction of Timbuktu okay. That was a caravan route. Yeah it's right nestled there. On the Tunisian Asian audrain border it would is that into old old sort of caravan town. I'm in the middle or on the side of the desert and it constructed as mazing way where you're basically out of the the son. You're these big big chimneys where the Lichen come in but that they he doesn't you live almost underground city sort of blocked away from from okay since interested in Libya. I haven't been give me one other places to visit in eastern Libya. You have also the case. Is it an Ikea. We have the Greek ruins you have these ruins you have the temple of Zeus which is as big as the Parthenon in Athens not as well preserved we had that big breakers for close to two degrees and that's also called the that the greed the greenhills actually pretty green lush up in up in the hills there and you have a few quick ruin sites awesome awesome so that what's my whistle even a bit more so hopefully things will settle down for the people and give me an opportunity to visit and go beyond aaa this debate never ends pair for those of you are in the facebook group every passport. Fort Stamp. Every fifth post is debating what counts as a visit. What's your rule. When you're visiting living in a country well personnel like to go to country and see what is important to see I've tried tried to like even in the smallest countries say San Marino lethal sign every one of these twenty four hours and even Africa the smallest countries of these two or three days and I've try immediately. We all try to have a rule that we try to apply until we can't and I broke my rule. Actually I'm I've never really been active online but six months ago I join every passports. Dan and great news came all in one week about the Saudi e Visa Shattuck Visa and Yemen be accessible from Salawah so I did the day trip across and broke my rule but it does have a place where Yemen is one the countries that would most most likely go back to that whole region our record but the but the main I broke the rule because I didn't want to visit all the countries except Yemen in having hanging and only only do like a short visit the end just to finish so I ended up doing it last year in in November and I finished up on easy country which is Columbia and and did you travel by yourself when you did the day trip from Saleh actually the every password sent community is really quite good on helping each each other and there was a couple of recommendations fixtures. Is I two of them. I contacted when you can't do that. You know it's it's a little dicey now and they're one is more wheeler-dealer no I'm probably relatives at the border across him and I got across that way so speaking of that in assessing risk so if you speak to two local Oh you many guys Fisher guides and one tells you it's not safe. Why wasn't that enough for you to say oh. I'm talking to Woeckel who makes his money off bringing people into Yemen and he says don't go well. Actually it wasn't the first one with an a safety issue was more. They return in a becker. The border okay says there was in fact that little corner of Yemen is sort of a peaceful around the way location so it's it's pretty pretty safe. I mean it was a very funny village means just to do a day trip and come back and I know people who've been Yemen Years Pass. They said is absolute highlight of that region region excellent. What so what what's your take I mean there's been a rash of fastest and youngest travelers who are going after Guinness World Records a number of them are doing. Let's say cheats or hacked act. I E counting an airport is visit walking into Parmesan J. Village over over the north and South Korean. DMZ and counting walking through the Blue quonset hut as visiting North Korea when you walk into the fire into the conference room is that is that travel. Is that a visit does that count. What's your thought of these people trying to set these records well. The fact is you ever says already been claimed. Some resort have been the first of all the countries these other things about being the the fast. Is this being the youngest I mean. I'm not really competing in that segment and I really compete against anyone and in fact I think Guinness Guinness actually set certain rules Yup. I believe a medication talking about John. The mental yes actually in corresponding figures. Russo also following those rules. She gets the points just like if you play a sport you got to play by the rules to get the points so I mean I think there's nothing nothing wrong. Route people busy airports do whatever they want and similar easily offended because a big part of identity. I think people that are offended to much should be offended more often if the people they somehow there due to worried about. It doesn't take anything from me. If someone does that you can look at for another standpoint Could you say they haven't been there in in a court of law. If there was a murder at the airport in as Mata the murder was an and you were you as Mara Kate. Would you swear you. We're not as more on that day No. I can't swear to that in fact I was there so you can't say they weren't there. The question is travel should be something living transformational. Actually benefit learn were somewhat changed by the experience. If that's the definition of the value travel in summer summer is only airport probably hasn't learned benefit or been transformed experience okay so I think the travel group should institute a new benchmark called the murder test and airports so a novel and unique way of judging whether you visited a country pair you mentioned going back to your reunions back to you been living outside the US for a couple couple of decades and I imagine you go back and you see some of your old friends. They're coaching little league. They've got a host where they're barbecuing every weekend. They're putting up the Christmas tree. They might look at you. As some sort of Eliot lived all around the world speaks multiple languages as seen and done things that they don't understand even obe. That's pretty incredible. Awesome and unique is their flipside. What's the sacrifice. You don't have a police that you call home really from what I can tell. You're switching jobs all the time. You have to learn the system make new new friends. Is there a downside to the life that you've designed. There's definitely a downside like when you go back back home to see for instance Highschool School prints in general most people have moved on and they also could be the ones that are more curious Nova minded. They're jealous too so we both sort of jealous of the other's laughter certain degree. I see especially my friends that are in loving relationships. Beautiful children dislike. I become the uncle uncle payer as I I sort of look wistful. Lina say what is that's a shame mishandling of are maybe to certain degree. There is this thought I mean. Maybe my father was a good role model and certain things my father married at each fifty four so maybe artificially. I think the best possible to married settled down later on and maybe most people would have had I've had so I think everything's possible. That's my mother was twenty. Seven when my father my father married her and it worked very well happy loving relationship father press wage ninety nine so some maybe consciously interesting unconsciously you think they're still hope my case okay and I'm glad you brought that up because you were over viewing your family and I wasn't sure if I hear birth dates Karakia. So what year was your dad born in was born in nineteen twelve nineteen twelve okay. That's pretty amazing and then did I also hear you then. Did He. Fight late in world war awesome. Thanks to your father for those sacrifices. Let's go back to languages again and we had a conversation briefly on an earlier podcast live from C. Land and you brought up about your love love for languages and you told me one of your things about learning foreign languages is learning a freeze which does not translate from from the other language back to English in almond the even start off with some Armenia so Sava Donham Sava Dunham home and you're saying you're better than me but this means let me take your pain away okay and this is used quite often in Armenian in fact I was travelling in Arkansas and as you might know once you enter the country of to go to the Foreign Ministry the get your visa and you also also fill the form. The form says wherein arts. Are you gonNA this well. One of the places I was going to visit was Ogden which is the destroy a town near the Azer Azerbaijani border but you can't put item on this form because you're not allowed to travel to act okay so I drove over there. I had a car and exploring it and then I'm weaving and driving to another area which is off limits as well. I get pulled over by the policemen and this policeman was not the stereotypical ex Soviet Union policemen that makes you a little nervous this or a little graph. He was a very gregarious understanding hospitable policemen and he kept on saying to me savettanand. Donald dear brother Salva Donham Octa John in what he said he was apologizing over and over that he was going to have to kick me out of this is region that I was technically legally or not allowed to be in the supervisor shows up. We have a further discussion a couple more Southam's of Adana GMS. Let me take your pain away and I was led away in the following the police car car with the sirens out of that area so you mentioned the last time we spoke in forgot the word word char something to eat sure Turkey bitter Choo Choo cool okay it's better and I do love that phrase and it was in regard to the I think cultural revolution eating bitterness in what you needed to do an essence to survive and prosper. I'm during that really difficult time in China's history. I loved it so much. I asked You A to prepare a couple of other phrases so let you jump in your let me just say also. Shukri applies in difficult times of any sort. It's that disability his sacrifice for future benefit. It could be a year ten years or your children. I'm interesting you say about seven down in in how to language if someone's about to fall down in either both be hurry to any music. Take your pain away. Is that like don in that in that sense or more like I feel your pain sort of uncomfortable more of the latter yes interesting one. One thing came to mind which is one one. What should we educated? Chinese is used on Prophets or coaching you and they're always four characters and there's one very good proverb describes certain the people who traveled to quickly. It's called Soma while hot means. It's ride horse see flower. People are writing fast in the horse going through country. They don't really see anything. They just see. See the rush by can they will expand with the flowers like another good. I like some of the expressions we learn are unique but actually are very nar. Injure issues understand the culture another good one is young are follow is raise your children to take care of you when you're older. That's why this part of the sacrifices self interest. I take care of you now known on don't clean your dishes. You just study you going to take the Gal and take the EH college entrance exam. You're just GONNA study. You're not gonNA clean your room. You're not gonNA do anything because I'm taking care of you. another one you see all the time and if you as a former say these things people are always abuse. It's got how she she change in. Sham Chung they translated for fun is good good steady day day up. All the children's school knows expression his Mao chairman mouse had this basically you study every day and you get better. It was all the entrance to two primary schools and Chinese joking. They say like back in Beijing accident. Good good study up inside jokes. If you say good good steady David up in China everybody's GonNa fall down laughing. I'll have remember that one parrot how about a role model so was twenty thirteen. I think when you're Turkmenistan you're traveling the world and learning and seeing so much but then you met these other what's a more complex travelers than you started meeting born more of them or reading more about them. Who anybody sort of a role model or you appreciate or respect someone's travels. I I respect most of the people that you run into that actually Nossa country there visiting you can talk to them. It actually read books about it. It actually actually know the history. Maybe the actually read some books of literature ahead of time. They actually have an opinion on things. There are people like that who really going to no country and they can compare it to the country next door and have some insight you people like. I find like Charlie. He's really he really has a a good global macro view of the planet now things unction okay and then when we're saying Charles Valley we are talking about one of the most traveled people and the the founder of the most traveled people website in. He is ranked number three on that West in another percent of the pleasure to travel with Iraq was done perish John Donne who is now ranked. I believe number one and moved traveled. People in a former guest of counting countries. Don Perish has amazing sort of childish curiosity these maintain for the world despite his ages his his eyes sparkle he he knows history is interested in languages he he knows minutia all the places he visits and it's absolutely inspiration talk to someone like that really not only it goes without places but actually understands what he's seeing in terms of travel style. There's one of your previous guests who actually introduced an interview two times. Not Many people people in that club is torpedo. Listen I met him. In Africa twice in baby Congo congo-brazzaville also so Saddam both places. He was sort of part for a while looking for onward. He's going slow and low the hard way have to the fight through the visa respect total respect for the guy because the guy had to suffer in face these these these these walls you say I've been four years on the road. Do I give up now and he's stuck it out. He's been like five six years. He's on the road and the guy has a lot of balls Salaam respect until he's a mother's Day marks from Denmark. We get along pretty well with a certain cultural connection but the guy is just he's tough. He's tough. He's a really nice guy. Eh and he's super positive guy but the guy she sees guide nerves of steel shadow to thorn dom parish you can check out their interviews news on counting country Charleston. I have a unnamed date at some point where hopefully I'll be interviewing him as well really looking four to speaking to him such -CCOMPLISH guy and also quite interesting his website in regard to systematic travel moves traveled people people looking back at your career. Not your work career your travel career. What matters the most you would you moosh proud about the things were thought. The largest sense of accomplishment is like traveling by land from point eight or some four point be and finally finally arrived it's. I think there's there's NFL Joseph Campbell and the Hero's quests society of of of leaving facing adversity in returning back somewhat transformed and when you're taking longer trips there's series of of challenges that make guess hopefully better people. It's really more experienced on so that that sense of going slow and low where you're not really sure. What are you gonNa face because usually these long trips. I haven't paid anything. I haven't booked anything. I don't have a local fixture in many cases. Matt fixtures very new thing for me. Usually what I've been with other the people that are have a fixer so I don't know exactly how it's GonNa work out and those are the trump to west Africa by myself and finally get through Nigeria to to the other side is pushing through the other side and breathing a sigh of relief and say I finally made it. What advice do you have for other travelers a one advice actually the most may relevant to my my personal experience is the power of language is being different language and live in different places but I find just making the effort of learning a few words it it makes you appear to the people you're talking to is a person who cares his interested in culture. I have just give you a a quick example when I've metric to be the first time arrived in Libya. This is not one of these accidental caffeine everything you ride people have the five day beard it looked like the terrorists from central casting and you would with Salaam Aleikum universities never happened to me in the Islamic world old you say peace upon you the no and says peace upon you putzing on very good footing so one thing is greedy to saying saying thank you and also one thing that's been my trademark. Is I love your little randomest expressions that show the you know like this is. I said that those China's expressions even even I mean I actually speak Chinese legitimately but like an Arabic. I don't really speak. I knew I can have a short conversation but I sort of Murray and expressions that make you the guy respects our culture. He knows what's going on. I could give a couple examples. One thing is very well known as a child. You Got Future sure good stacey now in shallow winning another one less well-known. It is an humble something could happen. You say an humble by the grace of God and a little more advanced Mansa something you hear all the time if you don't speak Arabic what some young guys in well out here every every sense it means. I swear to God so if you say like this is you. You're in a restaurant. You say this is the best homicide ninety one another great expression that works in the Arabic group world and also most places and noted for time. Libya is expulsion Wafa Wafa. Have you heard that expression before. I did not know that in in Arabic y y means one one watt listen means explosive messed up if you can say what the Wasser His giving the response. It's not over. We'll finally get there watson. Is You know we're gonNA eventually get their slope that same expression exists in all those countries. I learned to say Kawata the same thing as a poorly Poland. We've been to India like they have like really. You're slow slow. Volleyball used expression all over Africa in in experts step by step in in Kinshasa Congo's Miami slow slow gentle gentle. If you you say that says this guy is out imposing his westerns get things done right now that he's going to flow he cool. We can hang with him him. That's popular especially the Miami money in learning the local language you're GonNa go far all add one and Thai bye bye so bye so by means comfortable also by so by basically means tickies. I'll figure easy so by SA- by pair what next you've been to every country in the world. Is there another list. That's a great question I I finished Columbia three or four months ago and it was a little sense of when I went a kilometer of years ago he gets to the top and you great the nude all that that that tension you have going towards a goal or like running a marathon or anything that you've studied for them like the tension like this of sadness sadness to link the goal is not there and so- Apropos your question film thanks to Harry Mitzi these a shot off to him in Harry is the founder of nomad mania another systematic travel website Harrigan arguably one of those the guys who can say might be the most traveled person in the world. He's number one on that list with thanks to Harry last year I met him. I'm on May year or two ago and he was taking to organize a trip to Mali and I wasn't on nomad. Media was on any of these sites. He said you know he's. He's a missionary for a site he says what are you saying no media if we can do it together and molly. I feel a little pressure and I never done before and I feel the media profile and it was fun. Tom Took me like you know our dictate like every check you make those burs memory and then you're GonNa go you knew on the map was really it's it's really addicted to do that and then you had this map and then you look at the map thing you you think you're well traveled really not unlike you you look at yourself. Russia this big and I've been to Wasco as computers very little bit to transcend variant so is in Siberia than a big jump trump train to Moscow speak and I was thinking like last year on preparations who go into Iraq and Saudi. I certainly say Arabic and I can and read stuff in the basic stuff. I took her seriously. It was my second stab at it since working. Libya and I really enjoyed it going to Russia's Russians even easier yeah I mean it's less difficult at least to be able to read the script and dirt grammar and said Russia. That's a new frontier all this big this the university. I studied Russia relation concentration so the union is your. I studied John from history economics political science of that whole area and I went back again again just this last month. these memories came back and things I studied and I want to go deeper into Russian. I'm going to go deeper into countries that have have a lot of depth like India example okay so now you're saying deeper dive into Russia. So is it simply just getting to Russia better or does your mind work in such as the way that you look at the nomad media map and you say okay I need to systematically we visit each one of the regions as shown by nomad Menia or I just simply WanNa get to Russia better. What's the next bucket list. It's a good question there's that I think there's something more more more masculine thing we collect baseball cards. We collect your comic books isolated. I was obsessed with the whole set by looking the at least for the time being started filling out that map but it's it's one thing. I learned when talking to Harry's. Is You know the good the systematic travel focus of going deeper dive in a country it gives it a good excuse to go to Piss. You normally wouldn't have gone but that also wetted with learning Russian means augured travel being on the road and Russia going from unknown `Oblast Unknown Oblast seamless in speaking Russian the whole time visit my where Orion and might as well go to to newer places ten hunter show now the Nice Nice to meet you pleasure okay and complete nap pair. I WanNa thank you so much for joining me today. It was truly awesome to sit down and learn more about you. So thanks for taking your time. I take a moment to thank you. as I said before I got obsessed with Chinese. Listen Out of China's podcast and listen to podcast in general I sorta listen to your podcast and the podcast actually was a very positive thing for me. I think most people have a certain way they they travel and they serve big is the right anyway and I think travel should be exercise general in empathy people from different cultures perspective attitude mentality but listening scene two other travelers story is a wellspring of empathy for people doing things in different way and I think most people most I I admit most most most trouser admit that we have a certain way of looking at things we tend to value it better than those folks travel that way but listen to your podcast with the deep indepth indepth interview. I think it's really made me a better person. How I see other trailers develop more empathy for other people travel. I think empathy is is is the superpower for for travel in for relationship with their fellow man so thank you rik. That's a great way to end in impair before we do our final sign off. Is there any way people can stay in touch with you or follow your travels besides looking at your map on nomad media. I'm very active on on social. I haven't really posted anything of his but I can be found on on on on on facebook. My name is pair vestige. You'll see all the show notes and everything I'm on facebook pair. Thanks again so much. Thank you a great dinner in a fascinating conversation show with pair pair of thinks joining me and safe travels as you continue to follow your passion. Remember take a look at Patriot. Dot Com support counting countries become an awesome patrons so you can get additional. Info content be like Visa Miles Ted Williams Ryan gaster in Adam Hickman rakoff Michael people and if interested think Bhutan November Madagascar in August of twenty twenty and remember the check at the g the adventures Lincoln support counting countries until next time safe travels and keep on counting countries aw you have been listening to counting countries the only podcast to bring you the stories from the dedicated view who've spent their lives on the singular quest of traveling to every country in the world our theme music is D- meters dance written performed and provided by Mundi get their entire the discography at Mundi World Dot COM IMMU in I world dot com and keep up with rick and his own personal tribal rebel quests at global GAZ DOT COM

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Joe Lo Truglio

Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum

1:04:13 hr | 1 year ago

Joe Lo Truglio

"You're listening to inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum. I folks our Aria. What's going on? Holy Crap man help. Everybody had a good weekend. Nice and long would you. Last weekend I was sick so I couldn't really do y-yeah that's man. You feel better now. I feel you you kind of like a bit of a smacked asked when you came in. 'cause you're wearing a you know it's it's around Halloween now so it's the you have you wearing the it. The Penny wise cost him. I was pennywise recently recently in a sketch on Youtube Scan Youtube would you can check it out work. You'RE GONNA check that out on the warp zone YouTube channel. Check that out you'll check out Ryan. He's penny wise and he had the word these contacts. He'd never worn them. Hey context I don't know how you wearing them now and I'm still not used to them. You know a lot of stuff going on You know the album's been out for about and I don't know about a month maybe and That's really about it man in love with Michael Rosenbaum. Chris Ullivan as you know. Is Airing every Monday. So make sure you subscribing writer review We need you today on the podcast. We have drill trivial If you don't know Joe Brooklyn nine nine. He's amazing amazing. He's hilarious. I've known him for a long time. There's a couple of moments here in this podcast that I know I was transfixed on what he was saying. And so so as Ryan it was just really powerful it was it was simple. Powerful was applicable to a lot of things. Yeah it was. It was apple to ally. It doesn't doesn't matter if you're an actor would ever what he says like sometimes we're jealous of this whether it's a neighbor or you're on a you know I'm jealous because You know my buddy DAX has way more followers and Dallas else. He's not good. Gosh compare yourself to others. And he has something really to say about that and it. It's really. It's really a pretty profound today. It's pretty interesting interesting. The first thing that he's going to get a colonoscopy tomorrow so you're hearing him the day before where he has to not eat anything and you can tell he's going a little stir crazy but You know you've seen him on the state if you If you're old enough back in TV years ago Reno nine one one so many things you've seen him in everything super bad This is one of my favorite guests. I say I say that a lot but really I've known this guy a long time and I just love him and admit I miss him and it was good having them in here. I think you're going to really you dig. So let's get in side of Joe Truly. Oh it's my pawn. You're listening to inside of you with with Michael Rose inside of you with Michael. Rosenbaum was not recorded in from the live studio audience. I didn't know what the Hell I was doing in the beginning. I was convinced that I should podcast some. Because you've got a good voice. You Know People Apple. Yeah have a podcast. So I didn't WanNa do it and then I did at thinking. Okay maybe I can make some money and then I realized wow. It's not easy to make money in the podcast. Hey everybody it has a p- yeah what happened was I probably would acquit. But one day I just started become really vulnerable really really. It was therapy for me because I realized way I was living was not honest. I mean I think everybody thought. Oh He's gotTa Shit Together. He organizes everything. Yeah he was a hit show. He's always working. He's doing this. God the guys always. He's so have well. I'll say this I'll say that already. You're an affable guy friendly guy you're warm guy and he loved conversation and you know Oh people I mean. That's those are the type of people that should be having a podcast. You're also generous in curious to other qualities. Yeah four podcast. So here's C.. On your ninety. Hey whatever whatever episode thank you Joe True Glenn But it became vulnerable. It became like I felt like I had purpose. That's why I I do. I do it because I really love to talk to people and find out how they get through they face adversity. How did they get through it right today? Do what makes them tick. You know people. uh-huh what what are you doing now. All you're doing Brooklyn nine nine. Oh you're a big star but they don't know your journey and I sort of know your journey. Sure I know this shit that you went through. Well I'll say I'll say this I said I do a lot of podcast and get self conscious about it but I also like to see my friends and I haven't seen you in a while and isn't that how funny I find. This goes back to the guys at the state and everything you grow up get older they have kids. You have a family or like how can see more of them. How can I see my friends? What have they have a a podcast or we work together and suddenly I what he them I just meet them? Jerry's Elliott evaluate. Don't if if I don't show up I don't get paid and I have to see that. Let's hope they're a guest star on Brooklyn nine nine. It's so convenient for me. What am I going to do you text email? GimMe a break. Only way I was able to see. You haven't seen you in a while. I was excited about coming here. You know maller journey. Map allergist allergist text me like five minutes before you showed up our good friend Matthew Ballard. I went to college with them. We got naked at college. We did the cherry run. Ballard is now a family man. He's he's doing really well is doing something. Rob mcelhinney always sunny. Great Guy that everybody loves in you guys. Always all the guys from the state showalter and Marino. Oh hold me everybody. Always Michael Ian Black guys and I noticed like about he became and I knew you guys all new money didn't did you through Ballard. I don't really know I think I knew you. I maybe I think you did and remind me if I'm wrong it was it's through. MTV MTV or was it even before MTV it was around there were you guys were doing the state with guys out there listening. Don't know who the state was look. Look up some old videos find it because it really all these guys careers like David Wayne. Michael showalter that they've gone on what American tonight and Tom Marino Kerri Kenney. You don't know anything. I don't know those names. Look them up. Look those names up. And you're like holy crap. That guy's hilarious. This guy's hilarious. Oh my God look what he did. These guys is all started together. They met at New York University University. Some of US film somewhere in trauma but now we old Jose Trauma I meant to say drama. But maybe I'll tell you from Queens right. That's why you trauma. Well thinking about trauma. Can I tell you I tell tell you is on the comedy someday tram this. I'm thinking about trauma right now because this is this is why it's amazing that I'm doing this podcast inside tomorrow. I'm getting colonoscopy today. I'm in prep. I can't even tomorrow Dr Schwartz Yours. That's right I get to do people come at me now. Have you done that yet. Here's it's also fun. It's I guess it's because of our age we just talked about our age but you know the the age just went down. I'm two years ago. I went in to gastroenterologist. I can't bounce right along. Just say this guy. I want him because my buddy Harland Williams Harlan. Yeah Harlan's the if you guys don't always he's been on the the dumb and dumber go. Hey cash drinking out of semi GRANDPA's cough Meta sorry bud. So he said as I went to the guy got a colonoscopy. She really do it. I was worried and checked out for polyps and stuff. I didn't have anything I'm playing. You should probably get has the peace of mind. I went to see this ass doctor. I sat down with him and he looked at me. 'cause you know on how old are you and at the time I was like forty four because yeah most guys. Don't get this 'til fifty unless there's some things going on. Yeah and then all of a sudden I read it in men's journal or something like a year ago. They've knocked down the age to forty five. That's now I'm older than that age. Yeah so now now. I'M GONNA go get a colonoscopy. There's a few of my friends that want to go get it. We might want to document it. You know go together. Yeah they take I I don't know I don't know if you know. They say the worst part is the night before when you're just unloading unleashing yet that's tonight for me. That's I mean that's a night. Yes so what do you have to do by the way. This is good for you guys to hear because it's important so many listeners are of this age. I'm sure well this is health regardless of husband boyfriend or you're sure whatever whatever it is this. Is Joe Ever Lean tomorrow. What are you doing tonight to prepare? What are you doing today? Well today. A clear liquid diet guys. I didn't know breakfast. Water can have coffee tea. The instruction booklet says nothing red or purple. Now do I drink kool-aid no. I know maybe some of you out there would or popsicles. Do I have a lot of red or purple popsicles during the day. I don't have any. I can't remember the last time I had one of those. I certainly can't have them today. Your fluids clear fluids chicken broth be bullion breath. How hungry are you right now? Not that hungry. I don't eat breakfast that much anyway. But I'm glad this this podcast wasn't like four. That would have been. I would have been angry. It's going to be tough later from. I'm glad we got your what am I. And when I go to my therapies estimate five. That'll be interesting right before I want anything to eat you still what's still no I just I. I just kind of started a few months ago marital problems. It's everything your whole life. Yeah it's everything. Isn't it just jumping. Their marital royal issues says that I don't know so anyway. That's happening tomorrow. So tonight all fluids you know Hey table to sleep you wake up all you have to take liquid stuff like you know right before you go to four hours before you go to bed. What is that? I don't know but from what I hear from my friends that have done it. It just tastes terrible and it just makes shit. I mean that's clears. Is it out. There is out the pipes so I kind of have to stay endorse. Did People Prepare Brian. You're laughing is just one of the funny it. It's funny. This is Ryan by the way my engineer Ryan. Now it's funny like you have to stay. You can't really go anywhere and a friend of mine just was going to have a screening tonight and I'm like I wanna go and he's like actually you know we may have some pretty tight you you really WanNa go. I'm really do but it might be good that I don't because dot dot dot so yeah yeah. There's a lot of reasons one. I have to have the very back row. I'll one if you can't get that seat on coming. Yeah yeah or going. Oh that's right. That's important I I didn't. I didn't want to put that pressure on him Ryan's too young Ryan here is how old are you thirty one thirty one this right now. Right some time you get prostate exams Ryan. No have you ever had a finger in your buns. Well that's different. You have had that. No you haven't have you Joe. Sure I've only had one in my life and and I had this conversation with a lot of people because a lot of guys will tell me they have fingers in the prostate prostate exams. And I go no no. My doctor says it's unnecessary. Now you can just do a blood test check ups senior fine. But I'm hearing back and forth things like that so I actually went to my doctor. I said look I'm a little like I don't know sensitive about this again. Not put a finger in my ass. Yeah twenty years. I've known I don't I. We've we've known each other a long time. How come no finger? And then he goes the one not if I don't if really don't I think I need one even if you don't need it that bad I had one right before I had back surgery once and there was no need because I'm having back surgery. Not Ask surgery right so the guy says Mister Rosenbaum will get you know this protocol so if you could bend ova. I want you to know that. Don't be embarrassed. Some men some men not all men but they occasionally only Jackie late and I told him if this happens. I'm going to jump eight stores to my dad. Thought this window of shame. Shame embarrassed. Could you imagine you're you're there as a straight guy gay guy and this guy puts a finger in your load in this hospital floor. It'd be tough. It's just not personal. It's not a personal intimate moment. Then WanNa have that you want to remember really you know. Yeah you want something with a little bit more ambience to tomorrow tomorrow do they. Did they wake up in time to procedure feature. I think it's around one and we're going to beat around twelve thirty. I'm going under the gas the gas or can the short. You wonder you gas asked where you could take where you can take the heavy duty drugs. You don't like that. Well you know. It's not that but I'm told that where I was warned that you might not feel pain but feel something and I don't WanNa feel anything I don't need to remember this just like going there. Tell me what's what's up and I'll wake up and then you tell tell me and so I'm going to go with the anesthesia but you're going to anesthesia. So you can go in a seizure or gas. We don't know the gasping the anesthesia or like like got like opioids like j just like intervening wannabe out. I WANNA be out. I WANNA wake up and go. You weren't in my ass. Yeah I don't think you were. You can't prove it. Yeah Yeah there's equally show pictures. No Oh there they are. Yeah you were there okay fine you nervous a little bit. I SHOULDN'T BE I. I never used to be nervous about stuff like this. And I'm not really very nervous but had surgery before like adenoids out tonsils kid and it needles. Don't scare me but I don't know if it's you get older you have more to lose in your enjoying life more kid a Kid Eli aligned after. Eli Manning Stop It. No you're jets fan. I am Yes. It's the one that even talk about that right now. I almost almost. We almost named his Middle Name jet. Because of that. Thank God we didn't would just would well. You could've told people was after a wing Song Tom. Well the thing will wing some jet that Oh okay. Sure that's true. Yeah well you know. We decided that at the end of the day. When I hear the name ally I'll probably still think of my kid and not Eli Manning see before the kid comes here? Eli Eli Manning. But now that he lives here. I'm going to figure my son right so that was quickly. That fear was quickly washed away right all right look. We've talked about ask for the first ten the minutes of the show. I mean I've known you for a long time. We talk about the state. I remember those days when you were always so humble so fun fun to be around. I just felt comfortable around. You just a genuine. You've always been so genuine and I said Yeah I always thought I want that. I've got to keep you know nice doing well. Well thank you. Are you just genuinely good dude. And you're so funny and I remember watching the state and going God. Yeah this guy so funny you just gotTa in. I remember you struggle. We all struggle but like for years right your way people think Oh Brooklyn nine nine. He did reno nine Not Reno nine one. Yeah you know Kinda hard to say Reno nine one one Brooklyn nine nine. I play a lot. I played a lot of cops one. That's really nice of you to say a Mike and it's the you know the struggles real for a lot of people for many of US actors but I try to surround myself with good people I it was the first step and try not to take too seriously but you know it was nice to have the success. I had but you know there's some bitterness is there was some comparing myself and some jealousies along the way that you have to kind of you know. Eat Up you know. Did you ever resent like in the beginning going thinking you know one of your buddies your peers. I think we've all gone through doing so whilst why can't you just give me a lift like Kenny. Just fucking drop me off the the twenty third and fourth you know. Give me a ride. GimMe just Gimme a lift a nice series. Something right I mean. There's there's no way like I have friends that you know. When I was in Smallville or pastor I was filming in Canada so they hire all Canadian locals and you know? Sometimes I'd have people audition or something. I didn't have that choice. Like it's not like you know in pastor finally was a thing where I was an executive producers like hey I want my friend whoever over to come out I want my friend Troy to do this. I WANNA Roger to come. I want to if there's a role I want them even if it's not that big I want them to be a part of that. I would do if I ever had if I was ever creator our producer of a show. I mean these are things I'm trying to do But that's that's when you give back you know I. I think that's great that you did that. You have to do that. Yeah but I haven't been I've been creator of things that have an aired so or have not even been shot just I sold something so that's when I did my movie. Yeah I remember. I directed this movie back in the day and it was was just like a Raunchy lowbrow comedy and I was like Ballard get you know. You're out Saraj flying out Josefina. You're flying out Whatever I can do my friend? Jay Ferguson's Madail male. He already had a career. But I'm like please do this role anybody any of my friends. I just wanted to be satisfying. Isn't it it's like we years five years ago. Me and Michael Ian Black created this show called beef which was like judge. Judy meets like the Sopranos. And the bid is it takes place at like butcher shop and And you know the the A guy Forgetting carry criminal only played them would settle these neighborhood. Skirmishes yeah one over with a nice craft. Beer over WOULDA Janis like Super Bowl Party and then you know. He wouldn't let me have that. He hit the beer and we had a drink is like bud light shit feel then. He kept craft beer. You know stuff like that right and so and I invite Bauer did some and a lot of my friends that are so good so talented but just haven't gotten that chance yet. If felt awesome like in in and I feel that's important. I think you've gotta look out. I think I think it is important. It's also hard when you don't have a lot of the you know especially like when I was in small I had a lot of success. Yes I just remember going. I know what they want. They want these pretty boys pretty girls show and they have to be Canadian. Can't afford it because you know the cheap and they you know unless it was like it was like you know. And you're like you're GONNA show dude. Why can't you get me on Smallville? It's like if you look at it. Everybody was young long except for me. Yeah like everybody young. And there's my dad Lionel Luther and yeah but there was a lot I could do. I did try. You weren't a producer where you know wasn't the producer you didn't have that level a lot of it. Is this kind of misunderstanding of how the business works and how the power structure works hierarchy and like. Oh you're on Brooklyn and I just like put me on. I'm like believing how I mentioned you to Joel. Best Rep who was fantastic casio either I have not mentioned mentioned you. I thought you were told you that you asked me that. Sorry Joe Find All right Rosie. I'll talk to her unbelievable. How does he do it do it? But Yeah but you have to go through certain channels and I do I do and by the wager. WanNa come on the show would come on Brooklyn you mean a hit. Show that you're on that so do it yeah. Some people are very selective live in I am. I am selected in terms of. I just don't like a lot of people go. Why are you doing I go? You know what I just WanNa do my own stuff unless it's obviously if it's something that I just you know Jensen apples. He's the lead on supernatural. Okay and he emailed me last night. He's like dude. Call Your fucking agent and get on supernatural last season and I might and it's so nice because this is a huge huge phone Inc. million people and I'm like you know in my head I'm like I I love Jensen and I love the show. I Love Supernatural Shit and I love the fans and the fans are so I'm like you know if it's the right thing I would do it of course. Are you kidding me lucky but yes we'd be lucky to have so. Do Phone your name out to be kidding me. I'd love it even if it was like something fun and quick. I don't give a shit I don't let me go with that stuff. Just becoming funny egos are tough to keep in check. Aren't they did. I've been learning learning about ego. I've learned I've really you know I've talked about this but you don't know this but I. I went off to a wellness center for three weeks. So I listened to some of your All the peripherally but not a lot. We were talking about meditation. I just started that a few months ago as well do it every day. I do it every day. I'm for ten minutes I'LL I'll I've missed you know. Sometimes I miss a day or two but it's been It's been very very helpful. How do you feel when you miss a day? guilty. Yeah isn't that something. Like a routine thing. I try to express it to people. But if you're doing something everybody does governor drink four cups of coffee. Oh I wake up. I had a cigarette cigarette oil. Wake up I do this. I go now imagine that you feel like you have to do that. Imagine you you break that routine. You don't have that you know you could have. It takes twenty minutes imagine a new habit And now you're going that's what happens. I hate meditation. I hate meditation and then two weeks and I'm like have to keep doing that and now it's Today's ninety six days straight I wake up and I do twenty eight minutes and I cannot miss her. I feel like a failure and that's a very routine now even if people oh. I don't know how my mind's racing motherfucker look at me. Twenty seven because that that was an intimidating thing for me starting meditation as well. Because like how do you meditate. What era in San City? Everything's GonNa be quiet. No and then. I was working with Zappa Napa listening to this APP. You'RE GONNA say you're listening to ZAP Galifianakis trauma fanaticism meditation tape and. It's it's wonderful. It's wonderful I want. I'm going to finish gotTA finish but I really want to do. He knows this. I WanNa do a meditation APP. I WanNa do my voice choice. Yeah like because what I'm thinking. Yeah like I it would be shit like this. Joe I WANNA hear yours to mine would be like all right. Listen if you're like like me you know your mind is going nuts right now. I should take a piss before this thing. I should probably I don't know wash my face. Ace I should brush my teeth my practice up at right now but listen. Listen nothing matters triton and the ones smelling your breath I want you to just my nose is a little. It's not clear. So that's why you're hearing that that's a truck in the distance. Listen to that I was thinking those things I know I know that what would yours be I do well. I think they're all it's always deep right but it would be. Let's sit down this find a comfortable place. Let's concentrate trade on what it feels like to think about what you're GonNa do later. Wait don't do that freed breath. Did you make plans to have lunch. Don't think that either startled. They keep sabotaging the meditation inside of you is brought to you by COM at C.. Al Dot Com. I just feel calm saying Ryan saying the word calm. Yeah I'm neurotic little. Add all over the place. I need a break. Okay and I need a number one APP for sleep and relaxation period okay. I need to transform my nights which means better days. Okay Ryan Com. Does that calm. Has Bedtime stories for adults. You could hear the narrated by iconic voices like Lavar Burton Nick Offerman. It includes hundreds of sleep stories in a ton of other content like soothing music from artists. Like Sam Smith Guided Meditations. I love the guided meditations. I when you're doing it alone. What happens your mind races? Someone that have someone guide you like pre them through nose the X.. How everything's calm? You see how that works. I'm already come. I'm telling you man breathing exercises. I tell people there's hill all the time. How important meditation? How important relaxation? This APP is. There's no secret I know I'm trying to sell it because it sells itself. It's the number one napper sleep and relaxation to transform nights and makes the days better for a limited time. Our show listeners can get twenty five percent off com premium premium subscription ADT COM dot com. Promo Code Ryan. I oh you that's com dot com slash. I owe you. It comes with unlimited access to comes entire library in new content is added every week get started today at Com dot com slash. I owe you you inside of. You is brought to you by embark. I got this embarked dog. DNA test kit which is by the way the most comprehensive kit in the market. You GotTa know what your dog is. Because because I mean if you're doing your dog an injustice if you don't find out what Burrito it is because you can study their behavior it helps you learn their behavior certain breeds Training for a better quality of life. No your dog's breed to learn how to best care for your pope. I did mine and you know I always thought curve was just like price shepherd. I duNno Australian Kelpie. He looks like Kelly Ryan look at this result. Genetic genetic breed result for IRV forty three point eight percent German shepherd so hey I was right there. I thought it was going to be like eighty seventeen point like nine percent. American pit bull terrier. Oh ten point four percent Chow Chow. Ten point two percent Labrador retriever. Almost ten percent Collie and seven point. Nine percents Super Mutt. It's just cool to know that isn't it about your dog. He's a regular melting pot. Wouldn't you WANNA know Ryan we're your your kid was from where my kids my child. 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You're doing the state I mean this is MTV back in what year this was ninety ninety to ninety two. We did a show called. You wrote it you watch it which we were reenacting letters about From from fans and we were doing that show that was show we one of the directors actors on there And then that was ninety two losing track. I think ninety three. It's when we started the state. Yeah because I think I did the pilot for that show that never made it like a ninety five or ninety six. That's probably around the tonight five. We did the. CBS disaster the sea when we jumped to the network. And then that was that was like Doc Tober ninety five so the MTV show is like before then so what was it like. I mean you get near University of meeting all these guys he's big personalities were was there an immediate attraction. Immediate love between all of you where you were just like you all each other on you liked everybody. Yeah there there was at a we. We took each other pretty quickly and I don't know it's one of those things where you you never know why this group of people got together. I think we are all very smart. Ambitious extremely talented. Those guys are are incredibly talented. And and so I feel like that you know people like that attract each other and there was safety in numbers. There's like okay. What if we came up with you know at the group where we all perform in right and so it happened pretty quickly in terms of US getting along of course as you move on there's dysfunction in any big group gruppen? Those dynamics start to particular and and everyone sees what annoys each other about each other. And so who is a leader. Though was their leader was was a David. Wang was the our friend Todd Holler back founded. The group Todd Hall was in a sketch group with David Wayne and Mo Willems who Mo Willems Mo Williams is a an incredible and very popular Children's book author And he had founded this Sketch group called the Sterile Yak the tot holiday David Wayne were in todd. Broke off from that informed A group called the new group which ended up become the state. So that was that's all at Nyu now who did you honestly in the beginning when you first were there and like this guy is the funniest who did you look up to where you're like. Oh I mean not to say look this is events so it's not like you're saying putting throwing any wasn't that your God this guy is going to be a star. Wow can was like. Ken Made Me Laugh Very Hard Marino. Tom Lennon was wicked. Smart and funny Although it's funny Tomlin and we talk about this so I don't feel bad sharing this like I didn't like Tom when I first met him. Tom was very tom had it. Tom Thomson very like arrogant to me. And standoffish And we ended up going in for this student film film directed by Adam Marcus who did one of the Jason Movies and we were in the audition and we just hit it off. We had a great red addition. We booked this student foam. And we've been close ever since I love that man. He's generous it but it's interesting how you meet somebody and like you. Don't take it to them immediately. And then they become really really close. You have friends like that. Yeah I also think it's. It's easy for people I don't know how many times someone is said Either about me or about a friend of mine or somebody I know or an actor in now. I've learned not to listen to like. Yeah my friend Joan. Her friend John John Friend. Jim said that Dax Shepard was not really nice and I'm like Why I'm by the way this isn't a true story? This is not a truce now. It's not a true story but like you know and Like why oh. I don't know. She said she went up to him to get a picture. And you don't want to take a picture I'm like do. Do you think maybe he might have had been having a bad day. You think maybe he was in a rush was he. Eating was the hour. I'm a good judge of character. I think that's a good trade of my for the most part. I mean people like this. The person's good I I trust them. They seem like genuine person. I I my friends are better than me. Yeah I was part But I give people the benefit of they say so and so I go you know. That's well that's why you have so many friends I mean you what's amazing about you rosie is that I. I want your Halloween Party. I don't know when it was a few years ago probably October over. It was it last year I was at the end. Mothers ecological another terrific character. We were a bunch of boneheads showing up like not in costume. Everyone is in costume. And so I think I wore like a quint shirt or some josh shirt. Anyway you have so many people that love you. You should know that you should know that because it's it's important. It's easy to forget things like that. especially when you're feeling alone or out of it not sink not feeling like you belong. I went down like all these guys. Rosie that's amazing and it's true and I and I was happy to be there and be invited and that I also knew you so it just hold onto that known that because that's that's an important thing to remember when you you when you have those days where you like talking about doing it again but you know all this. I want to say first of all I Jimmy. Thank you for that. I mean it's incredibly kind of you and I appreciate did that the problem my mind. It's not that I don't believe you. It's not that I don't think they love me. My friends love me. It's this dichotomy of of yeah of course but then I'm always organizing stuff and doing fun things and doing this and having Thanksgiving and having a Halloween party and doing what. If I just didn't do that anymore with these still they still want to give a shit about me and I I would hope the answer is yes some of them. I'm just like sometimes I I worry I go God you're such a helper such a people pleaser. You're such a like I want to be liked and it's you know it's like dude true but like you don't don't you have your family. You have your job you have your kid. You don't go. Hey I'm GonNa do this an invite all these people all the time and I am getting better at it and I've been working on myself but you know no and I genuinely think people care about me. Yeah I do. It's not about. That's not an issue for me to allow people in. I think I think I just you know I've talked about this some billion times but you know getting it at a young age getting kitty on life and you walk around life you know like I don't know if I've ever been really felt love that I was really like few people. I feel that way but I can relate to that. I related that yeah I can relate to that in that. There are many times when I'm in a room and I'm like uh-huh what the hell am I doing here with. All these amazing people like what what what's that about. I should not be here and I've realized that you're never in a room. You're not supposed to be if you're in the room you deserve to be in the room period. So that's helped me just take could step back. Take a step back Trauma Abbott. What else is APP? It's this is what happens when you prepped for colonoscopy protein. What's in your mind right now? You're begging you to get rid of Shit yes but like you have to step back and remember that the you're there for a reason to to just accept it just own it you know and that's helped me. I hear your point about having a family right if I had this amazing place that you have. I've with all these incredible things that inspire you in it. That's wonderful and yet you're like well. What what else is there? What what about the family all that stuff? I could understand where your where your head might start to spin and be like what happens if I don't though the parties is it. Just do I turn to Howard Hughes or or whatever it is you know what I mean but you won't you won't you won't. There's too many you you're a you're a people. Gather you have an energy to you that just people I like it. So don't sweat it. Well I thank you my friend. Yeah Man I find but look back to you back to me as I view it is inside of me. What else we haven't talked about? We talked about Brooklyn while. I WanNa talk about Brooklyn but you know that whole journey from going from the state into this like starring on things doing things you're always like going. Hey I remember playing poker with you. I've never been at bars with you and it's just like hey joe I might do this independent thing. I don't know pain. I remember remember going up to quadruple. BANGERS called is four. You know you're staying in this thing. What were one of those little private urinals? Yeah those and you were. I just like doing this little bit. Part I've waited fourteen hours I haven't shot yet and I can just tell like you didn't you didn't show up. I knew it like you're like I just I just want something to hit. Yeah you you know I just WANNA be able to go on set every day. Yeah and be have a purpose. Say I'm here to do my part and work. You wanted to war. You're starting your star. This is a very interesting part of the conversation. Were segue into now because what you're talking about is accepting when your time is right. I had a longtime accepting when my time. It's GonNa be many actors. Go through that mark. Kevin Jackson just did a podcast with Brooklyn nine. And we're talking about Brooklyn nine in that. I almost didn't go in for Brooklyn Nine. I almost didn't get Brooklyn nine nine because I'd gone in. I put myself on tape for Allison Jones. Then they wanted me to come back in for a callback or session at that point of his during a very kind of dark time in my career in my head about my career like you know what I've done survey I've done all these like little movies. I've seen enough like like everyone knows what I can do. Like cast me cast me but like I'm tired of it. Who's really the EGO was overwhelming? Swallow me up and I almost didn't go and if I didn't go I would not be on the show. Clearly more importantly the lesson learned. Is that no one knows you anything. And if if you're doing a job because you're expecting to get another job you gotta find what you like about it. I know that's you hear it all the time you find the join. What what you do? But you'll get you realize that's really the truth because it put me in such a a mood of Eldest and people know what I can do. Just give it to semi give it to me entitlement. That really starts to wear you down and it starts to infiltrate you in a in in negative ways and you don't enjoy we around. I remember member. Ken Marino is such a great guy. His wife Erika Young wrote this really funny visuals. Here's burning love that. Ken was in so dominy. Funny people were in that shooting that and I was just in a terrible mood and can bring me a set like while we're shooting you know I didn't know disruption during the set but between takes I was just like not at the greatest of moods and he's like what he's like man to can. I love you I love this. This is so funny like I just couldn't be doing this. Like web shows like it was really narrow minded own grateful type of stuff and he her as a friend and he related and here I am talking. There's someone that also hadn't got his big break cans amazing and seeing all this stuff but also hadn't gotten his break and you realize you just end up sounding like a complete asshole asshole because you can't see your path you can't see when is your time and it took me a while and if I if I had kept in that kind of mode well then I don't get Brooklyn nine nine and Brooklyn nine nine has given me a gift that is above and beyond. I mean I have a new family. I've gone through life. Changes changes several of US have gotten married. Several of US have gotten had kids including myself if I had like fuck it. I'm not going in. That is not open to me anymore. That's not here. And that's a very humbling place to be when you're like Now I'm getting it the struggles real even after. You think you've made the big time not the big time at like Super Bad. It's super bad them like that movie was huge. I'm like oh well here. We go the only matter of time now sir getting the calls here they come. They don't come. You still have to go in you all that stuff so you just have to keep it in check because no-one owes you anything no is going to give you the money for the movie movie. No one's going to write the script for you. No one's going to like create the ideal part for you. You find it you get it or just file or if you don't know how how to get it. Follow things that are coming at you are opening up to you and maybe that will lead you there. There was there was a lot of that stuff going on for me about seven years years ago. I don't think I've ever listen that hard in my life Ryan I noticed you too. I noticed energy shift. What you just said it was worth the whole podcast and worth it to me? And I know worth it to Ryan because that Shit right there is is so vital and whether or not it's it's whether you're now you're not or you're right when your ego gets gets in the way the ego my fucking eagles got in the way of so many things where I'm like even on his all even talk about this podcast like now in the beginning of like. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't sound the good i. Don't we hear my voice. I never listened to my voice but I've gotten so many responses and people's lives have changed and it gives me purpose and I love it. DAX Get so many more listeners than I do I start comparing comparing you start comparing her since does he well. He's a bigger star than you. That's why gets bigger listeners. I know but he got the idea from my pocket he also had but so but he's great and for some reason he's got a bigger audience than you. So what and then I'm like I know I love I love me deserves I love DAX is one of my best friends but I guess it's kind of jealous. I'm like God it is. I'm GONNA be honest. I I wish I got. I love my podcast. I think I'd do a really good job. I think people enjoy it. I want more listeners to the listeners. The lesson I learned was play as soon as you realize that there's abundance you'll be all right with that. There's room really for everybody. Everybody so dax absolutely deserves serves that course that podcast. He's great at it and you're great at this so there's just room for everybody. I mean. That's a big lesson borrow from him. Sure can I just you say dad. Just give me five percent of your audience. Five percent of DAX's audience come over here come on over because by the way. My fans are so loyal in there. The listeners listeners are so low and Jen from legendary film. So I met with about some projects weeks ago. I got an email from her today. Saying I love the podcast cows and listen to it. It's so good and I'm like Oh my God so people are listening and I love it. I'M NOT GONNA stop. I don't care if it's like not as long as one person's listening whoever you more out there I really loved doing it so whether I make a lot of money or no money or whatever. I'm going to continue to do this because I really love talking to people and you could tell you could tell. Oh I just like it. I'd like to do this. My whole life. How great is it to you know to have an intimate conversation with interesting people? Some which have a history like myself others. He met for the first time. It's the best you says. Something remind me of another story about comparison and jealousy. It's I guess ninety. Oh No it's actually far than that's two thousand. The state is long done. I've been doing like commercials here and there. You know maybe an independent film here some voice over nothing very exciting And yet I see all my state compatriots kind of doing their working working. Yeah I get this audition for a movie. It's wings beer league. I am in the audition. The caching director and I I won't name name says okay. We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA slate and then we're going to You insulate your name. I'm going to ask you some questions. And then we're going to go into the disdain by the way. Don't there's no improving. They really stick to the script. I'm like all right sure so Hi Joe Trillo. Yeah Joe and so you were a member of the state member states comedy met at Nyu and so so many of your compatriots are like working at Reno nine one one and some did and everyone seems to be like working except for you. The slater twenty by the way the cameras on me. I was that all about. I'm like well you know I'm just trying to do nothing. You know literally inside them like Brady. I'm a furious like this ego and the comparison is just coming out in full force because this question and I just decided well you know I'm just doing my thing And in my head I decided. Oh I'm gonNA be Improv now. I don't there's no sticking to the script now I ended up booking the part and it was it was. It was a really good feeling knowing that. When you're up against it and the throw an egg on your face and they're just really kind of beating just stand up? Come come come out now in her defense. I don't think she meant to make me feel that way. I don't know she just wasn't a good interview. I don't think she was a good interviewer and I were very aware of the terrible insecurities of actors the level of comparison. That goes on with us every every minute of the day. I don't I don't I don't you know I'm painting her as a terrible person. She's not I'm sure but that was a terrible moment for me That I came out and I rose out of the ashes Phoenix the Phoenix. Do you think that. Do you think doctors look at other doctors and go. I'm I'm just as good of a doctor. A similar don't have as many patients. How how much is he making? I'm like I went to any heart. Surgery did rendezvous. I want the University of Pittsburgh. Yeah I mean I went to Saint. John's I mean I think everybody does it though don't they. Yeah I think every everybody whether you're driving a ups truck doc. Same thing it's like he's making more than me. I bust my ass. They work twice as hard as he is. Comparison Jealousy. They're just monsters man but you know what look I still get it about just able to be like. That's what I'm feeling now. You still get it right you let let it let you know that. It's going to dissipate jealousy. Yeah you know what uh I it's getting less and less it really it. Surely it's evaporating because I'm I'm really going. What does it matter? What is it is honestly feel like? You're probably in the right place right now. I'm getting there because I I really feel like when I'm eighty and I die. What is all these things matter? What is what is the house matter and and jobs that I've done? What matters is the memories friendships and the things that the enjoyment of life? Yeah the taking living being not going through the motions not trying to compare not trying to be someone but being the best you can be being the best human you could be giving and trying to love. And that's those those are the things I'm working on. So when my agent gets mad and says dude you know you WANNA work again. Do you WanNa like him. I I I am writing horror script right now. I'm I'm pitching the script scripted. I wrote for TV. Undoing animated series that my friend Harland. I am doing to podcasts. This is what I WANNA do. But that's not where the big bread and butter money comes from. You know to Spielberg calls. You let me know answer that fucking call. Yeah I'm lucky by the way this isn't like look dude. I've said this if I am like broke and someone goes we S. I'll do anything. I don't care what it is at Burger King to make money. I don't care that's how my momentarily was work work work but then I got to a point where look look. I'm not fucking like Brooklyn nine nine. Who knows what the fuck I'm just saying? I don't have the kind of money where I could just I can be. I'm comfortable right now table that I don't have to just I have to work. I have some fuck you money right. I don't know how much fuck yeah. It's not that for me for me. You know Many goals for career. But for me is to Brooklyn nine is just amazing. You know is to have a great job obviously and and with people that you love but you know you don't have control over that. Ideally I'd love to have a nice savings of money so like if jobs come along I really don't WanNa do. I can see okay. No I want to work on this movie. I think for many actors many vote many people in creative arts. I think have that goal. That's realistic realistic. No one wants to do anything they don't WANNA do. I think part of the reason. Maybe it's easier for the jealousy to go away now. It's like well you know what I'm like in your twenties. You don't know convy everything is possible. You don't know what you WanNa do and you see people doing all. That looks cool. That was cool. That looks great. I'll do that. I'll do that. You get older and you're like Oh actually we WANNA do this and I'm doing it you know I'm I'm writing my movie and it makes it easier and you're not comparing. Yeah you know I also think that the right play after twenty. Five years of whatever and forty-seven deer has to come a moment where you go. Oh that's not working for me. Yeah also by the way and the bigger thing doesn't work by the way we're all dust dial right. That's what I was trying to say. We're all dust. That's what I was trying in the wind. Yeah in the wind. We're all Kansas lovers. That's what I was saying. You said it more. Frankly more compact. We're all that's what. So what does it matter. You know it makes me feel better pizza making someone else feel good. Maybe you know. I think we're all put on this earth. Maybe just make other people happy which will make us happy before making other people. Happy with if we're helping other people that's making us feel good if you're doing something. They contribute to society of humanity. Whatever it is and I think for a lot of my life it was Mimi? Maybe meaning show show voice over a travel friends. This there wasn't that connection and now just working with hands hands on and charities and working with people in trying to help people and going somewhere for four hours to and leaving going and might have helped someone today I did. That's that's me. I swear I'm actually makes me tear up a little because so food on foot is a nonprofit organization that I'm a part of its for homeless people. Oh and They're high functioning homeless people so a lot of times people get money from the government that are mentally ill and things about the people that are actually high functioning that could work in the those. Are The people that suffer. So they don't get the money so a lot of times. You see these people on Sundays when you're feeding the homeless and you're doing these things in this organization's great because it says if you're motivated motivated if you want to be if you WANNA have a job if you want to have a place to live you can. Yeah and that's what organizations about. We're going to help you do that but you have to show us. That's great. You're motivated so just Sunday. This Guy Eric graduated the program and I'm just there you know and we're all as a hundred and something people there and people become there just to say oh. I Fed the homeless today. And that's nice. They showed up. Whatever it doesn't matter you're there you're there and as he starts giving his speech about you're saying hey man you know and he was very humble and he's just like you know telling about? This is where I was and the with this organization did and I just I was just lost in that in my heart. That's so great and I and I honestly had tobacco back because I didn't want all these people to see me Kinda Cryan. Yeah just backed up and I just and that feeling is worth so much more than most of the bullshit feelings that you get. That aren't even real any any anything to stop thinking about yourself is a good thing. I think I mean you know. That's a good lesson. Remember like a gotTa get it off a May. It's just the feel like a whole weight is off. You like what you're saying you see this change that you're making other people at such such a letterman talking about this at I think after his heart attack he's talking about how great it is to like help people like it's really true. Like for instance. My Amazing Wife. Beth dover is at the Federal Building. Right now bonding an immigrant out of jail so he can get with his family. You know she's with this organization called immigrant families together. That will make a huge difference to a person I mean. She's incredible for many many reasons reasons but That is only one of many things I love about her. But that feeling is like an comparible to anything like can you imagine when you're GonNa have a picture of a man that gets to go back to his three kids and his wife that are here in San Antonio that he was going to get the I mean this is the unreal stuff like it better than like an audition that you're gonNa miss or an episode of Brooklyn nine nine. You Know I. It's it's real. It's real struggle to Real. Will you know and it's good to remember stuff like that. I need to do more of it. I think everyone needs to do more of it. I think if everybody just took one day of the week to do something just to go go to a old age home go to accomplish and go to a homeless shelter join food on foot. Join me on a Sunday go. To a Ron McDonnell house. Help echoes of hope with foster a youth anything a day and he spent three hours. And you'RE GONNA go. What am I doing? I worry about me all the time all the time and this is just taking a moment. You'll be surprised. Surprised how good you feel like it is like Oh. My God isn't of all of this helping other. How have I been so blind? Wow helping people heels good. Hey you do you still do you stress. Do you still onset you Do you When you're learning your lines no no? Are you stressed at all anymore. You're stopped doc. You're excited about one. You don't ever go. Oh my God I'm fucking up. I can't do does know that no and has ever happened. Oh of course. Of course Boris. I think The early in the beginning. You don't WanNa fuck up and you don't want to You think you're not good enough for you. You're trying to get your your your sea legs on whatever new production you're on but I have been doing this and so so and I and I love that. I've been doing it so long that it is second nature. I remember. There was a time where I used to work worked for like an hour every night. I just don't have the time to do that anymore. Like I'll like and I do stuff now like morning of like makeup trail look at sides sides and start like learning start thinking lines on the day of. Yeah yeah because it's more improvisational feeling. No because it's just like such a tool now like like seven years like you know tv you get used to like how much time you'll have between shots and let you know you have time to really look at it. You also also know your writers you know the language of the script you know that they know the writing for your character so it's easy for you to think that character and therefore remember it easier so so you're know you're not throwing like if I'm if I get a job tomorrow where I'm playing this like dramatic role speeds or verbiage or even not a speech but longer lines finds that have different rhythms. You'll work on. I need to work on that like I. Charles Boyle is like you know back in my head in a great way and so I don't stress out out about how to do boil anymore. You know so. It's normal for me like when I'm doing a rural or it's dramatic or whatever that I really take a couple days to learn those lines that I have to know. They're not just like a line here three live here. I you know if you're in big chunks of CNN you have speeches and things like that. I can't I've never been one to wake up. Go to work looking trail and go. Oh here we go and yeah I got. I know those people you Kristen Bell whatever a lot of people. There's something that's so so stressful to me about not knowing my lines a mindset. There's something so stressful to me that maybe it's add maybe this new drug that Amman for my add which helps me. Maybe I could do it. Yeah but there's so I'm so distracted that when I'm on set and it was like Oh we're gonNA shoot an hour we're GONNA I. I just have to be prepared. We'll you're a hard worker. You know how long it takes takes Like I wish I could do won't small billy where you like that even after a matter because they always had a lot of lines and I try. But I couldn't learn and I'm like you know even Jensen I was talking on supernatural. Those guys they they'll look at it and I'll have tons of stuff Yeah I got a pretty good on the second take yeah. I'm so you think I'm so consumed worried about failing and everybody looking me like not good failure that I'm so hard on myself but that's where that comes from and I don't know how to change that I don't know how to change that right you don't you know that's a great thing to know about yourself. You know by the way I know we started late because it gave you a tour around the the hottest cat toys. You you WANNA do some quick lightning round. Did you get to everything you know. It's not about getting everything it's more about life like did the moment you'll see you'll see how these work but you know the lightning rounds. I we got everything we haven't even officials like even want to talk about the office. I go Not really that's so cool. I let me talk about the. Yeah everybody knows nine nine any Sandberg Terry crews all these guys is. Obviously you have to say the girls. Are there anyone on that. Set that your leg now are they all greatness I I I I know on the dirt but yes. It's they're all incredible people they really are and I. The party was Sandberg. Joe I want you to come out with me tonight. You WanNa go to this thing. Yeah we'll we'll we don't go out a lot because he's also a father and and you know he's got a life but like we have. Here's what we have this thing every year where we We make a bet that used to be about the show where we're like. How many flashbacks? You think there'll be this season and that was fun for why you make over under on it. You know you bet for money for a from a word like steak. Dinner is what we did and so we haven't done that in a while but now past has three years we've been doing like who has the worst record the jets or the niners San Frontiers are doing well. Yeah and so exactly. Two there was there was one one season where you know. The jets were doing it was it was who had the worst after the worst record and the Jeff got off to a great start in the niners were terrible and it looked like I was going to lose it. Looks like the jets would have the better record. And then the last half of the season the jets tank and like the night as this urge and the jets and evolving overseas in there for the steak dinner. That is not the case this year. Where it's such a joke? The Bet was who has the better record judging onto this year. Yeah Oh and four born four. Now that's our that's our kind of and then we go for a steak dinner and talk about. Is it hard to balance like you say you're dealing with low stress. You're going to therapy in therapy. Happy sessions what do you talk about. What will you say she'll say? Joe How're you doing. You'll say I'm stressed that in my ass. I can't stop obsessing about this movie. That isn't here. I don't know if Brooklyn nine coming back. I don't know what's going on my wife's doing this charity work with immigrants. Look at me. I'm worrying about things that aren't that important right. I can't get it straight. I'm nude again I'm new to therapy like I I I. I don't know really what to talk about their so I get there and I just talking about my day and my mood and you you know issues like my issues are like not that different like insecurity. Am I being the best person I can be. You know my giving back Am I a a good husband and my father. You know all all these all the basic boring shit that a Lotta people and not boring shit but important stuff but there's nothing there's there's nothing nothing specific. There's no specific issues like I'm GonNa talk about how great it was a do this you are. Yeah and then she's GonNa like. Why was it great unlike? Well well because I got to see my friend Rosie. I got to talk about some things. I don't talk about often. I got to get to meet Ryan and then you go from there and you know and then L. Nervous about getting a camera at my ass tomorrow. A little nervous about Nubia sleep. You know obviously in fact if you have an Ambien I can put put wake you up and say hey. I up getting groceries at two. Am and not remembering Ambien. Anything John Do you take any no nothing. You don't take any Zoloft and he's you don't take I've never thought about it like I should take something we'll take the edge off I've never I'm not a depressive person and I know I'm not no I think as of late because of the stress I'm like M. I. Depr- like I should look into that but I've always been a person. That's pretty outgoing enthusiastic optimistic annoyingly. So I think sometimes you know not eager you know but but I've always had like an outlook of like. Hey man it is what it is. It's live and let's just keep moving on. I don't get too wrapped up in sadness because and I'm not trying to Demean that mean anyone. That's that's real but like that's that's just never been my disposition and so if it was I would definitely be. It's great the five. That's a good part of it. I think so. I mean honestly if your parents were I mean I mean look did they say joe I love you Joe. I'm proud of you. Know they have them at suck they do they do all these things they you all these things. Yes that's vital and again you have to go one day in life to save. You had bad childhood which things happen. Sure you have to say all right well on my own personnel. have it over these things and I think for time a lot of people like myself just kind of it's hard. It's hard to go all right. I'm forget all those things that happened. Forget not being having. Yeah so but. I'm glad I'm glad that you're honest about that. I'm glad you had a great childhood. And that shows in the person you are. Yeah I mean look we are. Family has his function For sure but but affection was never an issue in the in the household. And letting you know it was right or wrong. What you're proud or disappointed in was always very open and transparent? I think that's healthy ultimately like do you feel safe right like you have a kid now. I'm like my job is to love and protect this child and just make they can feel safe. I feel like if you feel safe then. Then you're going to be off. You have a good start. I think if you feel safe whether your child or as an adult you're going to be the best you can be. I think that if I'm safe whether it's onset with people who I respect and I feel comfortable I could try things I could take risks. They're not looking at me funny whether you feel safe as a kid which is most vital. Yes it'd be like. Hey you know even if I dropped. The ball amounted stupid. Idiot ask Suck my My Dad's proud or those things are so important. I think being safe it sets you up. It sets you up for a really productive life that's receptive the everything but you know what you've earned yourself inside of you mug. I want one. Yup You got one in the back of the can you read it. Says it says you should know this already because you you read the sides and you get it right away. You're that two hours ago. Thank you for allowing me to be inside of you. That's right during that I want you to use it. It's a good mug. It's a good lookin' Mug admit I want I. I do admit and I wanNA thank you for having me and I love your brother. This has been great. What's your what's your instagram twitter? Handle a very joe literally owe at the job at Villa Trulia for both for twitter and an Instagram Brooklyn. Nine nine can be your nine nine is is is coming Out A mid-season replay January. The new season seasons seven offsite sometime in January. And it'll be great and funny. It's January it's starting in other words you shot all these. We've shot were Seven seven out of thirteen for this season. So we're we're mid seat where it mid shooting right. How many episodes have you done total We've done a hundred and thirty eight so far at the end of the season over one hundred and forty three. So you'RE GONNA go shoot it. Of course we did is in three. Oh seasons after season six so yeah. I mean after season after season six so after season. Six you've re-negotiate. Yeah so you waited six seasons we had to wait. That's the contract. After the second season we negotiate it. You did well. I don't think we were in to now. Was it hard ahead show. Is everybody treated equally or obvious. This is it was it was. It was cheered. It was tears here at. Yeah so this is what we're GONNA pay and you're like was hard. Yeah but it but not really tells out. He was paid well. I was happy the the the women weren't paid as well and that was wrong. And now they are getting paid equally equally in the second contract and so I think that's important. Yeah it is import- yeah so but again the money. The money is fine but it was. The money's give me a good life but it was really about having a thing that I love doing going to a place where these people were. Were in it together to do something than funny. I don't know what the Hell I'm talking now. You just look down I I hope Ryan just rolled his eyes. He's looking up by the way. Joe I hope some get to work with you because I. I think it'd be a lot. I I really love you as a human being and as a friend and then I know we haven't seen each other in years and you know it's it's sort of life but I'm like this moment right here is very special the me too I came. I've always liked you and I appreciate you coming here today and I love you buddy. Thank you thanks Buddy

Brooklyn Kelly Ryan Joe US Reno Michael Rosenbaum Michael showalter Michael Ian Black Matthew Ballard Harland Williams Harlan DAX Ken Marino Youtube Joe Brooklyn Eli Manning producer David Wayne MTV Nyu
Per Besson  On The Road To Turkmenistan CORRECTED

Counting Countries

1:40:45 hr | 1 year ago

Per Besson On The Road To Turkmenistan CORRECTED

"Hello I'm Harry. Mid CDs and I was the very first guest own counting countries quite awhile back and I'm the founder of no mat mania where rick hosts know podcast. I've done all the countries of the world and I'm trying to do the mall once again and today I'm very happy to be introducing per song on my favorite podcast counting countries with a membership of only around one hundred. It's one of the most exclusive clubs on earth and in fact more people have been to outer space than have earned their way into this the ultimate travel club according to the United Nations. There are one hundred ninety three sovereign nations in the world. Welcome to the only podcast. That brings you the stories from the dedicated few who spent their lives on the singular quest of traveling to them all welcome to counting countries with your host Rick Gazarian. Hey now I'm your host. Rick is Aaron. I had the great opportunity to sit down with pair Besson. We met in person at the extreme travel. International Congress where pair did a lot of great organizing for the event at the principality of Sealand following week. We met I some Great George in food and sat down to do an interview in person my apologies. This episode was recorded in the hotel lobby in London in there. Some background noise. I'm reminding you that. Counting countries is partnered with Patriots on Petri on is a platform that allows you to support me in my creation of counting countries. You can join other patrons like Ted be some Miles Ryan. Gasden had him Hickman as thanks. They're able to listen to additional interviews like the one. I did with pair after the one that you're hearing. Counting countries is offering its first group tour to Bhutan. In November of this year you can go to Global Gazza and see the details. And we're having another tour in August of twenty twenty two Madagascar powered by g adventures. Use My link to book your tours with G. Whether you're going to Madagascar Antarctica Swale Bar Galapagos pair has led a fascinating life including visiting every country in the world according to Nomad Menia a top one hundred traveller after college pair embarked on pneumatic life living for multiple years in Europe China Brazil and he has an insatiable thirst for warning multiple languages and this is an integral part of his travels. I encourage you to subscribe wherever you. Listen Apple. Podcast Google play at your spotify even Alexa writer review. Why that to keep the podcast going but for now? Here's my conversation with pair from the big smoke better known as London. Please listen in and enjoy. It's great to be sitting with you. Param hooping you can take a moment and introduce yourself by Ms Perez and I am from the US despite my name pair mothers from Denmark fires from the US tax limit in Germany and moved the US when I was four group in Oregon grew up in Oregon with unusual name. Grew up as a pretty all American kit. What was your father doing in Germany? My father is unusual story. My father was in the navy graduated from Naval Academy Class of Nineteen. Thirty five. He went to war will to the South Pacific after the war in Europe and Asia retired in nineteen fifty-nine went to German. Might my mother. The dental clinic a dental assistant they got married or brother was worn. I was born and we moved to Oregon so I started life in sort of by continental a family in pair. I did notice you have great tea. So maybe that has something to do with your mother skill set in good practices. So I'm hearing the initial onset of a very global upbringing so taking a look at that always asked what is your travel. Dna in other words with travel. Big Part of your life growing up in. How did your parents Act as a catalyst. If it was the case will let as I said before it started off international left Frankfurt Germany at age for went to Oregon pre altering kid. They literally baseball. You know soccer football as they say in your basketball but every three years and went to your my mother so at age eight at age eleven eight fourteen and those initial seeds for being open to Europe and then my second year of university. I went for a year is exchange student in Germany and that year. I just went crazy. Traveling I travel maybe twenty-five Countries. Those were the years you're old pass. Interro pass get on a train. Consecutive nights do tourism during the day. Sleeping the train at night sometimes. Three or four nights in a row and age twenty when back to the states finished up college is twenty one. I left the US been outside the US my life since okay. Let's go back because I'm I'm curious about the situation in your home. I think you said Danish mother so what we speaking growing up was the father. Speaking English mother. Speaking Danish did not work. That's a good question. Actually when my brother was born my mom would speak Danish and some English to him. My father speak English. My brother's sort of grew up little bit confused. I don't think he really said her. First word about three in a car and they crossed on retracts and he said wrote tracks and with me that sentence McClure clear Danish. My mother English from my father but we go to the states. You grew up in pretty much white bird America in Oregon a suburb of Portland. When your mom speaks to in a funny language in front of your friends see mom stopped at. That's weird and so I sort of put Danish in dormancy toward my teenage years and then I sort of sending Spanish in school. When I was ten eleven Germany was fifteen picked up Danish again. Got Back on the language track. What's it like? Spending those summers in Denmark with your mother was just what you're familiar with or you knew it was something different that your classmates doing. What tip of impacted that have on you? Spending a couple months every couple of years in Europe. I felt really special because I in oratory group known really traveled to Europe. So we go to a little bit we go to Germany and then we'd also take some foot by train down through France to Spain. Mom was superfan Spain so go down train. And there was something really seductive. Click clack of traveling by train. Back and forth on high-speed trains Senator Newark conditioning. The Windows Open. It's the summer and you and you sort of lulled to sleep by the sound of the even rails and so that was six seven weeks Germany Denmark with the family and then maybe to Spain one year A to Austria but little sort of increasing my comfort zone in concentric circles the little by little during my teenage years and finally going back to study when I was a second year student in college. The romantic age of train travel. No MAGLEV TRAINS. And during that time. Carry and pair as a observer as a visitor. Were you noticing differences between your upbringing in Oregon in Europe or did it not? Yeah did not register with you or like. Oh this is so interesting it's different. It's beautiful or oh everything's the same except the coke. Zero will a bit different sized in the US mill milliliters. Instead I think at that age eighty eight eleven fifteen. I'm still pretty American. You know if people say I sound for America and I was still really wasn't so Logan Outlook quite yet and then I think you know when I started learning languages once you learn language. It's a form of perspective taking so when I was fourteen already spoke a little decent decent Spanish but a really changed when the moment I left the US eighteen so as eighteen twenty nineteen leaving the summer before school. You're in Germany and turn nineteen on the road. Traveling backpacking through Europe. Two months with a two month a real past four hundred dollars for two months like six bucks a day and you just sleep it on the on the train one nine. Maybe another night in a hostile your picnic. I think my budget that was like twenty three dollars. Everything included every day. It's trains Picnic lunches youth hostels. What were you traveling by yourself during that? That's a good question. Actually when I was know in High School for Susan Collins. It's actually pretty wide introverted. But that year Germany's from transformed me with the background of Europe. If you're by yourself in your safe space back home you could be introverted shy. And that's okay. If you're traveling and you don't interact with people you can feel pretty lonely pretty quickly. And so that develops the skill set of interaction with people and stay lonely or interact. How're were you confident in brave enough to do that as an eighteen year old in other words? I was starting university when I was eighteen. It was seven miles down the road from where I grew up. I was in Europe. I was on Cape Cod Ninety minutes away from Boston. So what what? What was inside of you? That said okay. I'm going to go travel by myself independently for a couple of months. I think PARV riches navy today if you don't they later on when you start realizing danger maybe you do less stupid things. Usually things are safe into their not so is eighteen turning nineteen. Actually wasn't a very confident person. I I started traveling then. Even started hitchhiking on weekends. I was nervous in Germany. I just go for the weekend and Hitchhike and so my best language german-language practice hitchhiked in speaking German all the time of course when you're back in the University of meeting your best friends are also Americans and other foreigners so I really learned that in also when you hitchhiking you sort of all the person conversation which is very good for your German skills so I took long trips on weekends are leave on Friday comeback like an on a Sunday and that really increased. My confidence in my best treasury hitchhiking is not sending by the road is getting on the whole Autobahn Network. And where you're at arrest the gas station with a car. Stop and you can identify their license plates because just like an in the US. You have lessened by State. And should there's more specifically by city so you see an F. Funk foot sin H. Lamar tricky it's Honda dot humbled and is Munich. The big cities get their one literature on a nominations. The small towns get longer ones are pretty soon you memorize if you slip into. France is tricky. They have numbers that correspond to. The city's Paris's seventy-five Leong at sixty nine niece zero six and he pretty soon. You're traveling you're talking to people in the rest stops in your excuse me. I'm I'm American student. Trying to travel there and you learn to interact you. Learn to to connect with people and it's a huge own learning experience at some level. You felt under pressure to perform and entertain as a way to compensate the driver to your next destination definitely. There's also a little fun story late. I really value language and I earlier age whenever I was talking to person who's spoken language is put at WanNa speak their language. But it's funny when I started asking people and rest stops in German. Excuse me are you going this direction? Sometimes they thought I was driven by German accents. Pretty good and then actually learned sometimes. It's better speaking English. Excuse me to speak English and they stop for a moment. I speak English. I said I'm an American student. The trains are real expensive. I saw your license plate are you practicing wounding eunuch? So sometimes it's good is the language. Sometimes it's best to soft pedal bit and speak English than work in the German later on. Did you ever have a bad negative experience hitchhiking? hitchhiking to the worst experience. You have just bad drivers. My worst experience was always hate taking with a friend of mine from Freiburg. Wherever study which is the corner of goes to Francis which hitchhiked into Paris and a guy owner guy. Very poor driver. Think a little bit senile sort of swerving back and forth. I be sleeping in the back. And there'd be cars honking waking me up. Who's driving so badly and we actually had US pay money for part of the trip to Sweden to I check experience in because we had to pay and also was wasn't a very pleasant experience. Either okay so care. After University you left America you moved. Where did you set up shop first overseas so I went to noon? Beg for six months. Okay so what I WANNA know. Right here is why are you so different so? I can imagine you said you had kind of an all American background or childhood. How many your classmates from university left America to start a new life in Europe? I'm guessing it close to zero. If not zero a Mexican point I've been back from. Reunions tend to the twentieth. And maybe the ones that are left the action ever come back through unions but I think really having European mother and that connection made me unusual year in Germany really opened my mind to the world so it was a natural progression to go to Germany. It's a natural progression but it also could have been a natural progression not to go to Germany. In other words you graduate university. The career The companies are coming to recruit people on campus of your fans. Go I gotta drop here. I got a job year staying in Oregon and moving to New York. What were you thinking? What's your rationale? What was the catalyst for you to say you know what this existence of Americana start good. I need something different. Something I'm yearning for something different. How're you so different or braver adventurous to set up shop in Germany? When you're twenty one twenty two years old will actually year in in Europe from eighteen to nineteen nineteen twenty. Two fourteen months was so formative so stimulating. I couldn't imagine not going back to Europe so I came back and join. Isaac which is a student organization that she brings interns from abroad to work in Oregon and sends interns. Who Work Abroad in. Europe became a natural bridge to go work in Germany. Okay so you set up shop in Germany said Nuremberg and would you noticing? What are the differences? Would you saying like Oh. We do things in America this way. Germany is the same. It's different your antlers gawping. You're working. Here's a lot different than just taking a train around. What are your some of your things that you're picking up on it definitely in that phase in live. I'm still pretty American thinking back in the US this way. This is strange here. The Germans could be so stiff. That could be so formal. You go to a party and they WANNA talk about environmental pollution. You see your American front across the rue we seize your stuff talk to Germany. I who's like super sincere earnest. Talk a serious issue in your party. You realize the Germans are the Americans Have Square Germans or even more more more more square and it's easy to judge the negative way and I think I do and then after a while you realize the way they do things a function in their context so in other words a great way to meet a young lady at a cocktail party talking carbon capture something of that nature and in Germany before the carbon capture resulted even. Certainly there's this idea of like bean. Very you know straight to the point heavy. Some serious serious might say. It's very very common among Germans who've gone to the US say Americans can be so superficial. I've talked to at least thirty. Forty Germans have gone to the US exchange student. The stories are always say. The first week I was there is making friends. Exchange numbers no one calls me and they say they say many Americans are so superficial so it's a different community communication style. I believe Americans know what the code is for friendship among other Americans. The Germans haven't read the code. But when you go into conversely if you go to a new culture you've got to read. Americans have to read German code. Does that mean something to you. Meaning someone who's a polyglot like yourself is that part of the interest or the magic of traveling for you and learning language is to be detective and being able to pick up on these cultural differences. And you want this definite this idea that there's a certain behavior in under the behaviors and attitudes and under the editors underlying evalu- difference and it is sort of been a culture detective. So why are Germans a certain way why or Americans one way? Why do Americans judge Germans harshly in vice versa? Okay so set up shop. You'll living in Germany from understanding you're also bouncing around in Europe for a number of years. What was one of the either of of some of the places that you live. Which was one of your preferred or favorite grain experience for you. What I evolved from the German reality live in Frankfurt also and then I moved southwards was in Portugal and that was more of a Latin Latins. Were things aren't releasing literal. It's more important personal relationships than rules so emotions and people are more important than just rules written on on sheep or laws. That's that's a huge difference. Okay and coming from a Danish background hunt and from what I heard a navy slash German father with one resonates with you more. Is that the German rules based society or what? You're saying the southern Europe emotions. Which one did you? What which one did you feel comfortable with? You know very right right because you know earlier my comfort zone. Exactly that predictable things. People don't talk too loud and not emotional. They don't touch when they talk as the White Burn American Comfort Zone. And then there's something very seductive as you go farther south people when you talk to them. There's always emotion along with information he asked for. Retirement is going to be a smile. There's going to be like a human moment. You ask someone in in more northern climes. They'll tell you out of politeness in this we should do. You're listening sense their presence. Thank you from. The South. China became more and more Latin in Portugal. Italy like on especially aren't Super Latin moving towards more Latin Mindset. And so you mentioned. Italy mentioned Portugal. Where did you enjoy living more? Usually the AH primacy heck we. I go to in one direction and it's really really marks. You so porch was more towards the Latins Fair of course portion. That time is before lock low cost airlines. I'm as they say in in Portugal. Portugal rubber say Portugal is on the ass of Europe is on the tail end. People didn't fly in three nephews. In Europe. I took a total of three flights. No one took flights trains right. Jay hitchhike wants from Sweden Portugal. So that was that was sort of a stretch. Their incumbent on Milan is actually pretty. Structured and Milanez. Aren't the Times that we imagine? Some of the very very structured for a formal. They're not like the ones the time Americans you haven't US Chicago. What's your collaborator? Says She Napoli these guys? Are you seem more like German? The time and you spend how many years in Europe on that run total so three and a half years was Germany Portugal Italy and then parents okay self four pretty well-known very good sized European countries distinct different. What's cuisine for a second? What of those countries those four. Who has the best food? That's that's a great question left at the baby through. There's one there's some types of foods you can say. Would you enjoy this food today? Would you like this food for thirty days? Entire a tire month to some foods ended. Fill the bill certainly Italy this sort of north to south connecting zones in a huge diversity food. So it's I. It would be my favorite of the three Portugal for like a few specific dishes and like seafood seafood number. We got that much into French cuisine. But when I worked at the national making Kuwait I worked in the show. Leaves a subsidized canteen close by so. I'm living. I'm living I'm working shows. Say I'm living in maid's quarters with nine square meters but I'm going to work at a certain the suit and tie and three blocks away. There is a canteen shared by a number of banks. And there's subsidize move like four dollars or everything like like a rotating menu fifty different cheeses. That sounds and I would go like I. Do you know the soup the salad. The main course the cheese and the desert every single day so. I had like really really good good French as well. So several years jumping around quite a bit living in multiple places. Why so in other words? Why wasn't Nuremberg? Good enough? Why was in Frankfurt Good Enough? Why didn't you settle down what was going on? That was propelling you to go and set up shop in reinvent yourself from making new friends to learning how to work at this corporation to worry about the regulations and rules of the country and then trying were in the language again. Why why not just set up shop permanently or at least for a while longer in one of the places action serve that planet. At the beginning I might go back. Nba and before my Mba sort of a euro specialists and learn the main languages in Europe. And because I spoke Spanish had pretty good leverage in Portuguese Italian French German. I spoke. Spanish has like alone. There's other languages and having pretty good background so when did my MBA? I be ready to go to Europe and XP really well positioned in Europe. That's the story you tell yourself how how you can enjoy something but have a practical side to it. That's good for your career in the future. I mean what I'm hearing is pretty sharp focused guy who is planned out his life by developing these great skill set to propel himself into his career later in life quite interesting and quite impressive. So are you saying left Europe to do your MBA back in the statement against so you head back to the states do your MBA. An and then what? What's the game plan will actually? I've applied from an NBA. Like three to enter three or four years later. And so I go I go back from MBA and before when did my MBA? I traveled through South American and my trousers. America we realize Europe is the only place in the world. Twenty thousand kilometers by bus are longtime in Brazil did my Mba and it was clear to me. I'm just going to Brazil. Okay what attracted you. The Brazil's capital is at the beach is the girl. What's it's a little bit all of the above but this what. I expected export in my time. In southern Europe for the warmth of people few that in spades in Brazil there is there is in certain countries. The big lapse between sort of as an reactions. People think things through in Brazil people are spontaneous warmth Brazilians liked to like they give the benefit of the doubt. There's goodwill most Brazilians. I missed Brazilian restaurants. Your Brazilian the guy's GonNa stop. I'm GonNa talk to the person the person WHO's watching US things. We've been friends for years. There's GonNa be this warmth of expression this acceptance you feel from even complete strangers and Brazil's your say obviously a huge country a lot to see and everything and I just feel really connected and my plans for Eurocentrism and your specialty change. They got derailed and after doing the also works expense in Argentina for General Motors and I went down to Brazil with no job. Just sending a resume I networked and I got a job an American multinational great pair. You spent a lot of time in Brazil in the country. What's a Musi place beside the obvious? Rio or you know guys who falls. What would I need to see? When I'm going down to Brazil. I find like amount of the the smaller less known. Beach towns in northeast people in some Paulo our friendly by most world standards in Rio. The friendly in this very relaxed more Los Angelino way of easy come easy go the freedom of everybody the stereotype that just come. Come by whenever you want. Give me a call and say what's your phone number so super open no barrier to entry into conversation you go to northeastern Brazil Salvador his see for another. How and the people are just so simple in a good way. There's nothing complex about airs or ego is just warmth complete warmth. We traveled on the northeast. Describes your heart okay so the Maki narrowed it down. Had BEEN THERIAULT COUPLE OF TIMES? I've been to the beaches of boozy. Oh that's it for me. Tell me one other place. I need to go salvador by Salvador. Salvador is a city with amazing carnival. It's also city with eighty percent. Black DIFFERENT CHAINS OF BLACK. I mean in. Us is fairly known. The reasons so much mixing we joke in Brazil all shaved from Espresso to cheer him on the news. This is amazing warmth in Washington spontaneity one place definite recommend. I spent few carnivals in some other. There's an island off the coast of Salvator Mundi Sao Paulo. I spent three consecutive years. What's called the the hangover of carnival? You go through detox but never actually because you keep on drinking you drink like five six in the morning and watch the sunrise you sleep then you grab lunch at the same way for three or four days and there's no cars in the island you're everything is on foot and usually you'll even use leave your flops at home saw barefoot signed me up for twenty twenty. I know there's another big move in your life and you lived in China for a number of years so you know I can see progression no. Us similar enough to Europe Europe similar enough to Brazil China. Obviously there's lacking a lot of similarities between these three continents. How did you end up? Living in China were China's a big jump for from anywhere and to say that I left some Paul. I'm moved on the way to China. I moved to Milan was ever three or four years. In the meantime I had traveled released and got a job with tourism to Libya. I'm Libya's complicated from time to time. No more visas for Americans so no more were. Libya and I traveled through Asia. I took a long trip. Bali to kill by land and by sea passing through China arrived there in. May three and is most places probably in springtime. You know there's this energy and there's energy in China Star with in spring even more and I passed through China and I said this is the next thing for me. So what year is that when you pass through trying to be so I left him? Brazil two dozen three and two thousand and seven thousand six three and two thousand seven. I moved to China. Okay in your passing through China. Was there a light bulb? Moment would be said not passing through China. I'm not traveling through China. I'm living in. China came through a came through China and the China five years before and I asked me then would ever live in China. There is no way was even a distinct possibility not an whatsoever but golden China that time tourism finish up Libya. I need to look for the next big thing. And the Kirby what would it look like if I took a deeper trip in China? Okay and so when again? China troubling steady Chinese. Why traveled two months steady Chinese? I thought it was a good language student until I've said Chinese and I said Chinese is just too tough to study cash. I want to move to China so I moved to Beijing and I went to language school and I got series of jobs and Internet companies and I stayed thirty six one two years and I ended up seeing more than seven. Was that at level at any level For you meaning. I've heard you speak multiple languages to native speakers. Germany Portuguese Over the weekend when we met for the first time I mean not that I speak either language. It sounds like you're a native to me. So obviously you're you're you have a natural talent at some level for speaking these languages. So what was it a little punch in the mouth when you've got to China and I mean you weren't picking it up like you magically seem to pick up these other guidance based languages he'll come up and says a great word for men's I think we all sort of developing identity and reasoning for special and because I learned to for language I thought it was a language guy and that sort of worked in in in Europe. You also. I was living fooled because he spoke Spanish. Going to other Latin languages you get so much traction so quickly all of a sudden you're up and running and I started learning Chinese and it just it hardly sticks at for example if you have a word in English revolution a Spanish Sean. M- ITALIAN HEBREW PSALM Portuguese every show in French. And someone tells you that's the way it is. You're never gonNA forget your tire life. If someone tells you that in Chinese it's good me tell you that you know you merged forget forget maybe the ten th time you you get it right. Get the tones wrong and come up in punched in the mouth. It's just an assault on your ego and angry I just buckled down slide pushed and also I started studying. Chinese went up thirty eight. I think biologically were engineered to learn willing to three. So what's the processor utilizing that and is it? You said school so there's that me once a week but knowing you little idea I mean. I wouldn't be surprised if you told me that was school five days a week with a tutor on the side. So how does a pair start mastering in Mandarin assuming? How do you start mastering Mandarin when you're living in China while I was in class every day and then and then do homework on the side and then after the six months with Finnish still? You don't really feel them which Fox because if you learn a few learn a foreign language before you know in relative terms what is to be somewhat fluent because you have a parameter it was two first ladies awhile. I'm just doing okay. I'm proven every day but if you have a parameters will I've actually so far behind what imagine but later on a where really gotten habit of doing was listen to podcasts? Chinese there is. There's a there's a psycho Chinese pod they've got like my two thousand lessons okay and I would just like steady my own every day before before work. I do an hour of Chinese and then every waking moment that I'm not using my brain I'm walking somewhere. It's Chinese I'm brushing. My teeth is Chinese. I get so much in the habit of finding times of the day record poor in Chinese that when it stops it in Chinese I found podcasts. And that's one reason I found your podcast was I was going to say. I'm sure those podcasts. Were extremely destructive but nowhere is entertaining discounting country. You know what it's different different charm and a pair. What what's in? I from what I gather. You became a relatively. You're very proficient in Chinese. What's the reactions you get from the locals when you bust your Mandarin and more specifically not in the Shanghai or Beijing? You're in a smaller town. That doesn't get as many Gweilos and believe they're called. I mean in in Cantonese GWEILOS GHOST. Waco's so I mean do you have any. Is there any funny stories like you roll out of the bus station in a fourth Tier Town? Which is still two million China. Start busting out. Your Mandarin people are shocked. Surprised or they just hope the bus stations over to the left in Chinese. Will you get these different reactions? One reaction is they. Don't even think speaking Chinese because they can't imagine there's a common thing. This is argue. Sometimes people turn their head and they raise their hand like this and I am sorry. I don't understand what you're saying because they don't think you're understand and then they realize you're speaking Chinese and they look at you like this and there is a wide and it's I'm for sure to I have ever spoken to foreigner but like you said fourth year city in in China two million people even a second tier city in China with eight million people. Say You go to downtown walking street. That's big C for an hour. You don't see a single western face sometimes for entire hour. So why a couple of anecdotes there on one. When I'm in a in a train station in unwed province speaking Chinese people in Mine and a and a guy would be is. He comes from the countryside he sees me. Are you a foreigner Nisha Alabama? Are you a forty? Just want to confirm so we can go back to the village Said Act. You Talk to foreigner. I said want to tell you the truth. We actually said why grandma and why were means outside country person said you know when I leave my country and go to any of the two hundred countries in the world. I'm afford if you leave your country. You're a foreigner to another interesting anecdote. I'm traveling western China. I go into a train compartment and then a person's person Chinese in the person says what minority are you because in western China again? There's fifty six minorities in China but there's also a cosmic wego minority. Of course the Hon minority. You're ninety percent and he's like speak Chinese. He must be Chinese for different minority so invented as the fifty seventh minority. It's the foreign friend minority. That CHINESE IS GONE. Why Polio is at four four four hundred fifty seven minority? That's pretty awesome. Okay and same question. I give you for Brazil. Besides the known places beyond Shanghai Beijing and Union province. Where is somewhere? I need to go in China. I have a real affinity for western China Xinjiang region. Of course Tibet. If everybody's GonNa go to that. But she john in those those minority group brothers. Like we've your Kazaks Pajic kid gets okay and when you say the western part of China this is the area where Muslims are prevalent in. We have been in the news quite a bit. Unfortunately in the real negative way with Basically concentration camps in extreme surveillance. But what is attracting you to this? Non Hanish region of China. I'm really enchanted by the whole concept of the Silk Road this transition between Asia. In your and you go Western. China go do Romanucci or cheesy caller. Go DOWN TOWARDS THE CAR? Comb HIGHWAY CASH CAR. Kasha they call it in Chinese and that sort of the caravan route of going towards towards the West the whole story behind it fascinates me okay so I just spent a very short period of time and Ramji and Turpin interesting visit from me. You know this area better than me. What when I get to that region. What's a must see place or a must unique experience to partaken. I think for me because I was such a long time to eastern China. I was rather delighted by once I took through Central Asia on the way back in through has Exxon to the very very north tip to be top of Xinjiang up by the Russian border by Russia. Altai and you go there and you have you have you know. Greet greenhills you've got the Kazakhs Rushing rivers it. Just furry counterintuitive tweet expected to China. Yeah exactly I don't think anybody thinks China. I mean I'm sure the first image is the Great Paul China or the glitzy neon filled streets a Shanghai. Most people are not aware of and do not know The western part of China and how different it is pair. You are in the wheat individual you are one of approximately give or take two hundred individuals who've been to every country in the world one hundred ninety three sovereign. Unh We've heard a ton about your background air travels what was the day we decided. Seeing a lot of countries is not enough. I need to see them all. How did you arrive to that decision? I think gradually got think I was living in South America Europe Asia. And maybe the moment of the piff needed was possible was that I took a trip to North Korea with quarrier tours which is a group that takes a lot of forests to to North Korea. And I haven't been to Central Asia and I hadn't gone into administration and I had experienced one good time with a guide driver myself and going individual trial with guide and the driver and don't necessarily click with them. They're not responsive refund experience. If you like you're being you're the big one. The big hunter with his entourage and I knew the cordial tours organized trip to Stan said. If they've got two minutes Koryo tours they probably go to North Korea to. This is a pretty interesting group in how right. I was probably six seven. People triple more trouble than I was and I was. I was blown away. I thought it was well traveled. You sit down with the groove over lunch or dinner and like there's a table and they've all been to Wanda and hardy scratches service of Africa. And I by that time I've been to maybe Ninety Ninety five countries as it was all very possible. There's one the guy had been to all countries but to and through three before missing before we went to medicine and a few other one hundred sixty I said wow and I was inspired. I mean when you when you meet other real travelers. You don't want to. Some people used to tell your stories you meet them. You don't want anything you just want to listen to their stories and is there any names you can share I? E these are people known within the extreme travel community. There was one guy actually. He's very well known in Argentina. He sort of a a leftist photographer. Guy Who spent nine months in in Africa slow and low to the ground is it was Pablo Secrets. Moldy and there was one guy I think is Abe is like David and he was. He was in the Canadian Foreign Service and he was stationed on bases in world strategically Got Another world. But those those who are not ones are active in the community. Now those two really when they struck me. Hello Pablo David. If you're listening show is what year was that. That was in two thousand and thirteen. Okay two thousand and thirteen. The lightbulb moment goes on you meet these extremely well. Travelled individuals do you start now investigating and making lists than looking at your maps. In addition to searching out in finding a other one ninety three years or reading other travel blogs. What's what's the process there you know I was. I was pretty isolated from from travelers. I was in China for a while until two thousand thirteen. There was a period like four years on and went to one new country because all my free time which is travelling in China. I want I got in my mind. You know I think since I was a kid you clicked like sports cards or comic which when complete sets and my set was the provinces in China and so one by one I did and finally I finished the provinces in China I started to visit countries like Bangladesh and east he more to the East Asia Southeast Asia finished than South Asia and then move towards Central Asia. Too that's when I started to to Exhaustive possibilities in Asia and I started moving bitter towards Africa So a pair when you're collecting these countries when you're visiting and traveling in them what's your inspiration is checking UNESCO world heritage is is at Wildlife for nature is a cities as a museum. What what would you checking off the box? When you're visiting you know as I was at a fairly primitive and travels has pretty simple in how tribal I get lonely planet. See what you know. The things that are most visited and go do them. I think I probably have a An outsized interest in history. Like I wonder Stan what is behind the country. We have today. Why is it country different than its neighbour and so I really take a lot of interest like national? And of course he. I I see all the main sites of the whatever's the temple or the Moscow were church and if there's h really wanna see I can do of his music festival but really point in history and culture understand. Why is it country unique? Is there a country that stands out for your interest in that country in terms of history like countries historical past? You find extremely interesting compelling actually. I'm I've when I really started going deep in Africa. I sorta read a lot of books on African History. And the interesting thing is you're fifty four countries and there's a clinical period those opposed colonial period and fifty four chapters of different different variations. And I find that absolutely fascinating how to see how varied by British presence French Presence and then post liberation so independence. What happened to them? The choice of leaders of the lack of choice leaders is that a family business passed onto father and son and I get really I sort of put on my historians had or in terms of interest in history especially when I was travelling to Africa. Let's like fifty four different laboratory experiments when they made that transition and going back in time to any time period to any country or region. Where would you choose if you had that time machine to a live in or visit to to visit? I've been been enchanted by way of trial. I think the first overheard description that web travel. Is You actually use the word the term? Let me borrow your your term that you've used. The term is slow in low. I hadn't heard that before. I think that that state's best the slow on low guy par excellence. Is Marco Polo that idea of having the skills it also of languages and cultures to go across negotiate across difficult terrain to go to a far off land and actually which is exotic caress? Come from the. Us China Magin then and that would be this sort of the person or the time period. Quite interested in pair. Hiding you travel. Are you always solo or friends or what your what as of late? I've gone to places that most of used you travel by myself. I usually don't plan too far ahead. And therefore we can say lineup people to travel with. But it's all in the last couple years. I ran into some extreme travelers. In some cases. I've been had the chance to travel with him and I always think if you travel with the wrong person is better to try to stay home if you travel the right person. It's you double the pleasure and you you you you cut in half the hassle and you have great stories to share for the rest of Your Life. That is true. It's obvious you're stating it's the risk. If you end up with the bad apple you could ruin friendships by child with the wrong right with the wrong good friend. That's true pair hiding pack. Would you traveling with when you're hitting the road or is back in the day? I would pack for things just in case. I'd have my dancing shoes just in case because I don't really mind carried a big pack. You know the standard pack like twenty twenty five kilos space. Why Not Schlep it along and so by books along the way that humilate? I'd have you know. Four or five types of footwear and then over time the last like since two thousand thirteen fourteen now. I travel with one backpack which is back pay would not out of place on a college campus and I have a super easy packing strategy recently. More to warmer places. It's like one long pants. Shorts on tennis shoes flipflops four quick dry shirts once in a longer lungs put Dr One windbreaker and occasionally travelled from coal places to the southern Southern Hemisphere. Where I'm leave where I am. It's really cold outside. Maybe below zero. And that's all I have and my backpack is empty because it weren't all my clothes. Do you know twenty thirty pushups with backpack on and warm up and go out and handle transportation. Get to the airport. And then do the strip-tease basically take off all those. I have on input in my backpack in an office. I go Kay some good tips out there and one hundred ninety three. What's one of your favorite places you've ever? I know you asked a question all the time. It's funny that I haven't relieve thank. You didn't prepare but I didn't do my homework and this. Let me just preface by saying that one could ask a question a lot. I'm going to answer your question. But on the medieval preface to say that people asking the question. I said you know we if you ask her mother. Who is the favorite child? Especially you know that the hero mother of you. China's revolution or these societies have too many children. They're the map ten children and they had their love child a different way so I love certain countries. Further landscape certain countries for architecture certain countries for the people certain for the food in certain countries for the store. Moment that you're living in your shoes you're part of history like China can be so greedy and rough. But we whatever's in China for seven years. This is part of history. This is a period of transition so to answer your question transportation question. Obviously it's unfair to say. The country lived long time. Because you have these emotional connections to it but let me mention a few places that I find sort of little treasures and really pleasantly surprised me on one of those was late breaking a fossil people in British foucault or so amazingly smooth in warm wherever you arrived to come in the door arrive in the airports. Not even like it's good arrival. Everything is welcome. Welcome welcome one country where I really felt walk. I felt real connection. Maybe that's the reason I worked for Libyan tours of a couple of years. Libya Libya was closed off to American for for for twenty years. I just arrived in Italy from Brazil. I discovered you can go to Libya's American. I wrote ten tour operators. I said Oh you WANNA come here. You have to have a guide. You have a driver by the Wisconsin. Twenty dollars a day and I wrote Tan. One guy was a little more flexible and I wrote to my said if I translate your website from your English to my English you can work with me a little more flexible so he let me be a little more flexible and this guy made his whole family and I worked with tourism to Libya and I travel a lot has a very special connection for me and Libyans didn't really have tourism. You go you go to a buy something and they say. The price has say ten. You say five you go. Oh it's ten. Do not use to bargain to go to Egypt for him. Rock up use tossing Egypt or Libya was the land that time forgot They had oil money in their cut off from the world in the people this simplicity in this warmth away from the Capitalist Society of need to rush around and make money why. That's a place I think we'd all like to visit and possibly even living. Okay this is A quick grounds here. So with your previous statement favorite country landscape wise Jus- come up with one and bring it out a one one one lands almost made me. Cry Is arrive in the in the desert in Libya in the morning when the strikes a certain way you see these dunes which like twitter meters high and I almost cried. Mckay and favourite big city. I was really struck by by Tokyo when I first went there. Were just for me. I went to Japan the first time in ninety five and so was my first time in Asia. And it's so struck me that everything was so different. I miss functioning by different rules that I was really struck by the because of a certain primacy effect. The first time loan to exotic distillation took her released stuck in my mind. Okay and we sh- we've been speaking but favorites and superlatives and great things. What's a bad thing? A least favorite place I find like the worst experience. Make the best stories But if you survive them all's good I've luckily survived everything without much. No last Amazon any case whatsoever the only time that had really difficult experience et border The only time I had actually bribed someone in fifty four countries in Africa was Nigeria. And I would still put. Nigeria is one of my top ten countries in Africa where I feel really special experience because it's it's such a it's such a universe in of itself one hundred ninety million people. It's rough it's edgy. You feel special be there and I crossed. I'm Nigeria by land from from across West Africa. I came down beneath came across three years ago. I get to the other the other side and the and the guy takes my passport takes in the back room. He says comeback this guy smiling. The Cheshire cat smile. Means you overstay your visa. I said I got my transit visa in the This is for ten days. Eight Suzano doesn't matter. Look look where you're stamped in entry. It was scrawled seventy two hours. You overstay your visa. I five days in one thing. You want to make sure all your papers in order any small thing that your paperwork your passport. They're gonNA try to you. And this is a big thing. Five days over state. And it's that creative writer unpleasant situation on which I finally got out of but It was just super draining. I mean I just all Madryn was which is which is pumped out of me and I finally got to Cameroon. I was finally a lot of Nigerians. It was it was a tough experience. It was one of my best travel stories. A lot of small served details on it but but by when you basis we can we can drive you back five hours the main city. You can sort it out there. One Guy said then another checkpoint for this and you know we can charge a thousand dollar. Fine overstated says. There was like a series of negotiation. That went on and it finally worked out but it was. It was it was. It was a lot of stress. I mean you don't know what's going to happen. You're you're in that time. I hadn't seen a white person three or four days crossing Nigeria. You're you're Thir- mercy. You know what's going to happen. You're very vulnerable. So what technique do utilize. So you're isolated by yourself at their mercy. So is the technique Compliant is aggressive is a begging is crying. What do you do Mexico question? I think some people would play the car. Righteous indignation like the embassy said this. I said like I'm fine spending money. I've done nothing wrong. I believe I'm fine spending money to get out of this and so i. I played the the contrite foreign rusty ads true of Nigerian was in the US overstay their visa. That's the problem is finding. I've traveled a lot. The guy trying to play hardball with me. Look at passports as you've been Afghanistan you've been Pakistan Nigeria. We have probably book. He's if I'm the the the the the terrorist extremist agitator to his pelted harbaugh and I sort of played the Contri- guys low key. No no conflict S. C. You know I'm I'm I'm willing to pay a fine. I mean I did some overstayed my visa so I played the play contrite hand and then he takes out a piece of paper and he has me write down. What happened why it went wrong? I'm used to this because I did this. In China. Something in China called civil peeping is a self-criticism very common in the cold? Travel ver very common in the Cultural Revolution in fact overstayed once my visa by one day and there is a thirty day. But you're the the in lineup and I got it wrong. I went to the local. Police plays a drove in a police car to the immigration and I had to do escorted. Yes it was cordial everything. So I'm used to the civil peeping self-criticism did that and I filled it out. You know. It's for his records F for records then I omitted show like putting my hand in my pocket and I gave him a certain amount of money. I dug deep. It was about six hundred dollars which is not much money and and he accepted it. Any made a phone call. Because this wasn't actually. The border purpose was a checkpoint before in call-up up supposedly up ahead says by the way you have a few more checkpoints to go through. Okay so got back to this I'm in a car that I picked up in a border city. Zook was falling apart when I got into this share taxi. All the taxi drivers left in this guy. This is one of these cars with their windows. There's no there's no handle inside the car. The panel has gone It's totally reston in everybody's laughing is a pull out of the parking lot. Go to the next next point. They're sort of surprised to see a white guy. Greet them and everything and Look Alex. My Password his problem and he wants to talk about An Essay we call the head and he's GonNa let me through and everything and then he says you maybe give me a souvenir. Our seeking getting spicer the souvenir side Duggan. Not In my Nigerian money. My money and I. I took out a bill on this. Bill was Abraham Lincoln and we know Abraham Lincoln is and how much it's worth. It didn't and I said this is a souvenir of Nigerian American friendship. Or Abraham Lincoln in eighteen sixty three made immense pleasure proclamation he said Blackman Whitening role men in eyes of the Lord. I this is a souvenir. Vote of Nigerian American Friendship. And then he says you know. You'll get a lot of traffic on that board. What is this worth? He is a no woods five dollars and I mean if you want to sell the souvenir he looks guilty. Give it back to me so that I would keep on the last stop which is actually the border crossing. I come in is a big big guy. The New York giants Cap. It looks like job at the hut in terms of a good looking guy sharply guy need any other people lining up everybody's paying something in line of payments for whatever it is and so we got a problem friendly but he's my passport. He knows there's a prophet g think at some level. The Guy who took the initial bribe is calling ahead to say everybody get ready to get your bribe when this guy comes through or perfect role. You're thinking Oh this is so friendly and helpful he saying. Oh let this White Guy Through he already paid his bribe consideration. That you know we find ourselves British flying blind. No idea I Ryan said guy. They're back in the checkpoint CD call talk to a manual manuals off three now a says. Anyway you gotta pay so I do the show of taking money out and I give it to him. And then he's counted is another like six dollars or so and I don't say anything you don't want to negotiate yourself. And then he like looks at it and he says it's not enough and I don't say anything for like two then he's all these accepting other payments the same time he's doing parallel processing and finally I take about four dollars worth a hand. It to him. He doesn't say anything and then he finding Musha next to him my stamp and then I get across the border and then that was started a two or three hours of a pretty Corrupt Cameroonian for guards in. They've got a leader for thirty five years whenever you have a leader in the country Africa for many years the same leader. There's this whole Stratified system of money made it all levels. Where if you support the regime. You've got your you've goodies for you. So the fun kept on going on. Well I'm glad you made it through Nigerian. Yep I mean that makes it more memorable than it would have been a smooth exit out of the country when we're talking about underrated. What's an underrated country region state city? That doesn't get credit. I've always been a big fan of going to Piss very few tourists. I guess they're underrated. There's this feeling of explorer side of us that grew going there and we feel special because we're not the one millionth in one tourist that month and one of those places. I'd say in in Africa Santa me so this is an island off the west central coast of Africa on. Because I I I come. Portuguese-speaking background those places. Extra special some tomato guinea-bissau goal was a couple of average and other because these are former Portuguese Italy's correct another place Eritrea Eritrea was was so closed off everything to sort of seem in slow motion. The land that time forgot you got the the main. I don't know if you've been to era of the main main avenue there was of a car comes deeply by the Italian architecture. You step into fro for coffee macchiato in those places where you feel like you're you're you're not just part of a few of tourists but you feel like you're a little bit special. I agree I thought a retrial. One is underrated and I think yeah. You feel a little bit special there because there's not too many tourists there pair. You've lived all over. The world. Many different places would is romance like on the road having switching travelling and moving to all sorts of different places of fantasy. You'RE GONNA MEET. You'RE GONNA meet this woman of your dreams who loves to travel on on on and somehow to connect and things are going to be not as much as I've found the one on the road like that. Is there any mechanisms you utilize to meet people on the road? I think you'll be four before would travel more in youth hostels many times. You've been someone they're going the same direction you travel for a day or two one direction or another occasionally occasionally. You're lucky you you go in the same direction. It could happen. That you may be changed your mind and going the same direction are sometimes you really under too much time pressure. You really can't reverse direction. This happen probably too much like I tend to budget time fairly exactly. I'd like to go slow and low but I have sort of a destination at the end. What about a most off the beaten path location? Is there anything that comes to mind when you think of the places? You've traveled to certain places that are that are very few tourists. But they're pretty small like basic now is off the beaten path. But you know people are gonNA show up occasionally. It's three hours to walk around the country but it would be like places like when my trip through through box car chrome highway. That's where I felt like it was just in a in a in a place so far removed from the world. I came down from from China. You're traveling by land. On the Karakoram highway been buried by an avalanche You had to get on to vote for hour and a half get to the avalanche. Climb over the ledge travel in local transportation to we twelve days to pass Pakistan I think I talked to about a train ticket. Once I talked to One woman. Women are invisible. Everybody's in our community gotta show welcome us as well. You feel like you're you really have no contact with a Western worth. What makes it special just? This one thing is to go to new APP lesson place to his various people another things go to places that heads full of people like is two hundred million people and be absent surrounded by people dressed in a different way. Bobby's different beliefs and you stick out so much and I most places stick maybe in Sweden. I'd go undercover Sweden or Denmark. I'm six four Amazon when I when I have hair I I stick out very much there. I could be a welcome I into welcome or could be a target so when we're looking at your question that you completed a visiting every country in the world what was one of the more challenging visas but there are a couple of these. I've had took awhile to get like irretrievable. You retrieve was I've heard funny reading the Password. Somehow I'd friends or going on a on a on a group tour When Canadian American they applied from their countries. I went to the embassy in London in London and I said is accurate. Apply here city. Sure just just call and follow up so I called. They say they've submitted is moderate. The local incumbent agency has never December come. I'm calling every few days for weeks and weeks. The guys hang on over resented for some reason L. of jerking me around your wet me. They have people at the immigration as Marlins he hasn't arrived on no proof. I mean it's easy to say. Don't we can process you. But for some reason this whole dance to like two months and a port the mission. So then how did he eventually get it eventually like a year year or so later on my found someone to to give visa on arrival? And it worked very smoothly. And who is that? It was it was Kasai. Been honey. And he's an individual who works with the airlines. They're like supplying like foreign foreign experts. Who Need to come and fix planes so all the time. He has a process therapies. Bring them in to as we use well-connected in fact he's the my last night there had dinner with him. He'd gone to school with the current president. Afford icke same descend generation very cool rubbing shoulders. Vip's was at least. I WANNA go back to Libya because Libya I mean as you said closed off from the world for so many years Now it's just a mess under civil war To country so many people want to visit you working with In the tourism industry. Were you working with the Ministry of towards them or a local Torkham to operator? Okay and were you living in Tripoli of simply Milan important groups had played out? Okay and will you do marketing sales? I was the interface between the operator and all of the groups overcoming so so I was that obviously I was more responsive than the competition. So I'm guessing pretty good too of course partners from the. Us awesome so you were working with them three years or how a couple years okay. A couple of years so How many times are you able to go down? And visit or total amount of time in country said when like five or six times great. And you know we all know Tripoli. We know the Sahara. What share with me. A top highlight of Libya. Would I need to say one? Which is a little bit farther away. Most who in Ninety Square to Tripoli in the Go-to left US Magda love the Roman relent or subrata. There's episcopa- dummies which is let which is Sort of South West in the direction of Timbuktu okay. That was a caravan route. Yeah it's right nestled there on the Tunisian Algerian border it would is that into old old sort of caravan town. I'm in the middle or on the side of the desert and it's constructed as mazing way where you're basically out of the the son. You're these big big chimneys where the Lichen come in. But that but they he doesn't you live almost underground city sort of blocked away from from okay since interested in. Libya. I haven't been. Give me one other policing need to visit eastern Libya. You have also the case. Is it an Ikea? We have the Greek ruins. You have these ruins. You have the temple of Zeus which is as big as the Parthenon in Athens not as well preserved. We had that big breakers for close to two degrees and that's also called the that. The the greenhills actually pretty green. Lush up in up in the hills there and you have a few quick ruin sites awesome so that what's my whistle even a bit more so hopefully things will settle down for the people and give me an opportunity to visit and go beyond AAA. This debate never ends pair For those of you are in the facebook group. Every passport stamp every fifth post is debating what counts as a visit. What your rule. When you're visiting a country well personnel like to go to country and see what is important to see I've tried to like even. In the smallest countries San Marino lethal sign every one of these twenty four hours and even Africa the smallest countries of these two or three days. And I've tried immediately. We all try to have a rule that we try to apply until we can't and I broke my rule. Actually I'm I've never really been active online but six months ago. I join every passports. Dan and great news came all in one week about the Saudi E Visa Shattuck Visa and Yemen be accessible from Salawah. So I did the day trip across and broke my rule but it does have a place where Yemen is one the countries that would most like to go back to that whole region. Ireland's but the but the main. I broke the rule because I didn't want to visit all the countries except Yemen in having hanging and only do like a short visit the end just to finish so I ended up doing it last year. in in November and I finished up on easy country which is Columbia. And did you travel by yourself when you did the day trip from Salau Actually the every password sent community is really quite good on helping each other and there was a couple of recommendations on fixtures as I two of them. I contacted when you can't do that. You know it's it's a little dicey now and they're one is more wheeler-dealer no I'm probably relatives at the border across him. And I got across that way so speaking of that in assessing risk so if you speak to two local you many guys fixture guides and one tells you it's not safe. Why wasn't that enough for you to say? Oh I'm talking to local. Who makes his money off bringing people into Yemen and he says? Don't go well actually. It wasn't the first one with an a safety. Issue was more between a becker. The border okay says I was in fact that little corner of Yemen is sort of a peaceful around the way location. So it's it's pretty safe. I mean it was a very funny village means just to do a day trip and come back and I know people who've been Yemen years pass they said is absolute highlight of that region excellent. What so what? What's your take. I mean there's been a rash of fastest and youngest travelers. Who are going. After Guinness World Records A number of them are doing what say cheats or hacked. I E counting an airport is a visit walking into Parmesan J. Village over the north and South Korean. Dmz and counting walking through the Blue quonset hut as visiting North Korea. When you walk into the fire under the conference room is that is that travel. Is that a visit. Does that count? What's your thought of these people trying to set these records? Well the fact is you ever says already been claimed. Some resort have been the first of all the countries. These other things about being the the fast is being the youngest. I mean. I'm not really competing in that segment and I really compete against anyone and in fact. I think Guinness Guinness actually set certain rules. Yup I believe a medication talking about John. The mental yes actually in corresponding figures Russo. Following those rules. She gets points just like if you play a sport you got to play by the rules to get the points so I mean I think there's nothing wrong through people busy. Airports do whatever they want and similar easily offended because a big part of identity. I think people that are offended to much should be offended more often if people they somehow they're too worried about. It doesn't take anything from me if someone does that. You can look at for another standpoint Could you say they haven't been there in a court of law if there was a murder at the airport in as Mata the murder was an? And you were you as Mara Kate. Would you swear you were not in on that day? no I can't swear to that in fact I was there so you can't say they weren't there. The question is travel. Should be something transformational. Will you actually benefit learn? Were somewhat changed by the experience. If that's the definition of the value travel in summer is only airport probably hasn't learned benefit or been transformed experience. Okay so I think. The Travel Group should institute a new benchmark called the murder test and airports so a novel and unique way of judging whether you visited a country pair. You mentioned going back to your reunions back to you been living outside the US for a couple of decades. And I imagine you go back and you see some of your old friends. They're coaching little league. They've got a host where they're barbecuing every weekend. They're putting up the Christmas tree. They might look at you as some sort of Eliot lived all around. The world speaks multiple languages as seen and done things that they don't understand or even obe. That's pretty incredible. Awesome and unique is their flipside. What's the sacrifice you don't have a place that you call home really from what I can tell? You're switching jobs all the time you have to learn the system make new friends. Is there a downside to the life that you've designed there's definitely a downside like when you go back back home to see for Instance Highschool Princeton Journal? Most people moved on and they also could be the ones that are more curious Nova minded. They're jealous too so we both sort of jealous of the other's laughter certain degree. I see especially my friends that are in loving relationships. Beautiful children dislike. I become the uncle uncle payer as I I sort of look wistful lean and say well. That's that's a shame. Missile of are maybe to certain degree. There is this thought I mean maybe my father was a good role model and certain things. My father married at age fifty four. So maybe artificially I think the best possible to married settled down later on and maybe most people would have had romantic. I've had so I think everything's possible. Mother was twenty seven when my father? My father married her and it worked very well. Happy Loving relationship. Father Press wage ninety nine. So some maybe consciously or unconsciously. You think there's still hope my case okay and I'm glad you brought that up because you were over viewing your family and I wasn't sure if I hear at the dates correct. So what year was your dad born in was born in nineteen twelve nineteen twelve okay. That's pretty amazing. And then did I also hear you? Then did he fight in World War okay awesome? Thanks to your father for those sacrifices. Let's go back to wing guages again. We had a conversation Briefly on an earlier podcast live from C. Land and you brought up about Your love for languages in you told me one of your things about learning foreign languages is learning a freeze which does not translate from the other language back to English in the even start off with some Armenia so Sava Donham Sava Dunham. You're saying it better than me but this means let me take your pain away okay and this is used quite often in Armenian In fact I was travelling in Arkansas. And as you might know once you enter the country of to go to the Foreign Ministry the get your visa and you also fill the form. The form says wherein arts. Are you GONNA this well? One of the places I was going to visit was Ogden. Which is the destroy town near the Azer Azerbaijani? Border? But you can't put item on this form because you're not allowed to travel to act okay. So I drove out there. I had a car and exploring it and then I'm weaving and driving another area which is off limits as well. I get pulled over by. The policemen and this policeman was not the stereotypical ex. Soviet Union policemen. That makes you a little nervous or a little gruff. He was a very gregarious understanding hospitable policemen and he kept on saying to me Savitt. Donna dear brother Salva Donham author. John in what he said he was apologizing over and over that he was going to have to kick me out of this region that I was technically legally or not allowed to be in the supervisor shows up. We have a further discussion. A couple more. Southam's let me take your pain away and I was led away in the following. The police car car with the sirens out of that area. So you mentioned the last time we spoke in forgot the word word. Char something to eat. Sure Turkey bitter Choo Choo cool bitter and I do love that phrase and it was in regard to the I think cultural revolution eating bitterness In what you needed to do. An essence to survive and prosper. I'm during that really difficult time in China's history. I loved it so much. I asked you to prepare a couple of other phrases. So you jump in your let me just say also. Shukri applies in difficult times of any sort. It's that disability sacrifice for future benefit. It could be a year ten years or your children. I'm interesting you say about seven down in Haddock language. If someone's about to fall down in either both be hurry to any music. Take your pain away. Is that like don in that in that sense or more like I feel your pain sort of uncomfortable more of the latter. Yes interesting one. One thing came to mind which is one one way to educate in Chinese is used on Providence or coaching. You and they're always four characters and there's one very good proverb describes certain people who traveled to quickly. It's called Soma while hot means it's ride horse see flower people writing fast in the horse going through country. They don't really see anything they just see. See the rush by. Can they will expand with the flower like another good I like some of the expressions. We learn Are Unique but actually are very nar injure issues understand the culture. Another good one is young are follow is. Raise your children to take care of you when you're older. That's why this part of the sacrifices self interest I take care of you now know non. Don't clean your dishes. You just study you going to take the Gal and take the college entrance exam. You're just GONNA study. You're not gonNA clean your room. You're not gonNA do anything because I'm taking care of you. another one. You see all the time. And if you as a foreigner say these things people are always abuse. It's got how she she change in Sham Chung. They translated for fun is good. Good steady day day up. All the children's school knows expression his MAO chairman mouse. Said this basically you steady every day and you get better. It was all the entrance to two primary schools and Chinese joking. They say like an engaging accident good good study did up inside jokes if you say. Good good steady David up in China. Everybody's GonNa fall down laughing. I'll have to remember that one parrot. How about a role model so Was Twenty thirteen. I think when you're Turkmenistan. you're traveling the world and worming learning and seeing so much. But then you met these other. What's a more complex travelers Than you started meeting born more of them or reading more about them who anybody sort of a role model or you appreciate or respect. Someone's travels I respect most of the people that you run into that actually. Nossa country there visiting you can talk to them. It actually read books about it. It actually known the history maybe the actually read some books of literature ahead of time. They actually have an opinion on things. There are people like that who really going to country and they can compare it to the country next door and have some insight. You people like I find like Charlie. He's really he really has a good global macro view of the planet. Now things unction okay. And then when we're saying Charles Valley we are talking about one of the most traveled people and the founder of the most traveled people website in. He is ranked number three on that West. In another percent of the pleasure to travel with Iraq was done perish John Donne who is now ranked I believe number one and moved traveled people in a former guest of counting countries. Don Perish has amazing sort of childish curiosity. These maintain for the world. Despite his ages his his eyes sparkle he knows history is interested in languages. He he knows minutia all the places he visits. And it's absolutely inspiration. Talk to someone like that. Really not only goes to a lot of places but actually understands what he's seeing in terms of travel style. There's one of your previous guests who actually introduced an interview two times the not many people in that club is torpedo. Listen I met him in Africa Twice in baby Congo congo-brazzaville also Saddam both places. He was sort of park for a while. Looking for onward. He's going slow and low. The hard way have to fight through these visa. Respect total respect for the guy because the guy had to suffer in face. These these these these walls you say. I've been four years on the road. Do I give up now? And he's stuck it out. He's been like five six years. He's on the road and the guy has a lot of balls allowed respected so he's a mother's market from Denmark. We get along pretty well with a certain cultural connection but the guy is just. He's tough. He's tough. He's a really nice guy and he's super positive guy but the guy she sees guide nerves of steel shadow to thorn dom parish. You can check out their interviews on counting country Charleston. I have a unnamed date at some point where hopefully I'll be interviewing him as well really looking forward to speaking to him such -CCOMPLISH guy and also Quite interesting his website In regard to systematic travel moves traveled people looking back at your career. Not your work career your travel career. What matters the most you would you moosh proud about? The things were thought. The largest sense of accomplishment is like traveling by land from point eight or some four point be in finally finally arrived It's I think there is. There is innocent of this Joseph Campbell. And the Hero's Quests Society of of leaving facing adversity in returning back somewhat transformed and when you're taking longer trips there's series of of challenges that make s hopefully better people. It's really more experienced on so that that sense of going slow and low where you're not really sure. What are YOU GONNA FACE? Because usually these long trips. I haven't had anything I've been booked anything I don't have a local fixture in many cases Matt fixtures very new thing for me usually what I've been with other people that are have a fixer so I don't know exactly how it's GonNa work out. And those are the trump to west Africa by myself and finally get through Nigeria to the other side is pushing through the other side and breathing a sigh of relief and say I finally made it. What advice do you have for other travelers? On one advice actually most may relevant to my personal experience is the power of language I speak different languages different places but I find just making the effort of learning a few words it it makes. You appear to the people you're talking to is a person who cares his interested in culture. I have just give you a quick example when I've metric to be the first time arrived in Libya. This is not one of these accidental. Caffeine everything you ride people have the five day beard and looked at the terrorists from central casting and you would with Salaam Aleikum. Universities never happened to me in the Islamic world. You say peace upon you the no and says peace upon you putzing on very good footing so one thing is greedy to saying thank you and also one thing that's been my trademark is. I love your little intimate expressions. That show the you know like this is. I said that those China's expressions even I mean I actually speak Chinese legitimately but like an Arabic. I don't really speak. I knew I can have a short conversation but I sort of Murray and expressions that make you. His Guy respects her culture. He knows what's going on. I could give a couple examples. One thing is very well known as a child. You got future good stacey now in shallow winning at their another one less well-known it is an humble. Something could happen. You say an humble by the grace of God and a little more advanced something. You hear all the time if you don't speak Arabic what some young guys in well out here every every sense it means I swear to God so if you say like this is you. You're in a restaurant you say. This is the best homicide ninety one another great expression that works in the Arabic world and also most places and noted for time. Libya is expulsion Wafa Wafa. Have you heard that expression before? I did not know that in Arabic Y Y means one. One Watt listen means explosive. Messed up if you can say what the Wasser. His in giving the response no no. We'll finally get there. Is You know we're gonNA eventually get their slope? That same expression exists in all those countries I learned to say Wa wa the same thing as a poorly in. We've been to like they have like really. You're slow slow. Volleyball used expression all over Africa in in In a step by step in in Kinshasa Congo's Miami slow slow gentle gentle if you say that says. This guy is out imposing his westerns. Get things done right now. That he's going to flow he cool. We can hang with him. That's powerful especially the Miami money in learning the local language You'RE GONNA go far all add one and Thai okay so by so by so by means comfortable also by so by basically means tickies. I'll figure easy so by SA- by pair what next you've been to every country in the world. Is there another list? That's a great question. I finished Columbia Three or four months ago and it was a little sense of when I went a kilometer of years ago. You get to the top and you great the new all that that that tension you have going towards a goal for like running a marathon or anything that you've studied for them like the tension like this of sadness to the goal is not there and so- Apropos. Your question film Thanks to Harry. Mitzi these a shot off to him. Harry is the founder of nomad mania another systematic travel website Harrigan arguably one of those other guys you can say might be the most traveled person in the world. He's number one on that list with thanks to Harry last year. I met him. I'm a year or two ago and he was taking a trip to organize a trip to Mali and I wasn't on. Nomad media was on any of these sites. He said you know he's he's a missionary for a site he says. What are you saying? No my many. If we can do it together and molly I feel a little pressure and I never done before and I feel the media profile and it was fun. Took me like you know our dictate like every check? You make those burs memory and then you're GONNA go. You knew on the map was really. It's it's really addicted to do that. And then you had this map and then you look at the map thing you you think you're well traveled really not like you look at yourself. Russia this big and I've been to Wasco as computers very little bit to transcend variant so is in Siberia a big jump by train to Moscow. One little speak and I was thinking like last year on preparations who go into Iraq and Saudi. I certainly say Arabic and I can read stuff in the basic stuff I took pre seriously. It was my second stab at it since working. Libya and I really enjoyed it going to Russia's Russians even easier. I mean it's less difficult at least to be able to read the script and dirt grammar and said Russia. That's a new frontier. All this big this big university. I studied Russia relation concentration. So the Union is your. I studied John from history economics political science of that whole area and I went back again. Just this last month. These memories came back and things I studied and I want to go deeper into Russian. I'm going to go deeper into countries that have have a lot of depth like India example. Okay so now you're saying deeper dive into Russia. So is it simply just getting to know Russia better or does your mind work in such as the way that you look at the nomad media map and you say okay? I need to systematically visit each one of the regions as shown by nomad Menia. Or I just simply WanNa get to Russia better. What's the next bucket list? That's a good question. There's that I think there's something more more more masculine thing. We collect baseball cards. We collect your comic books isolated. I was obsessed with the whole set by looking at least for the time being started filling out that map. But it's it's one thing I learned when talking to Harry's is you know the good the systematic travel focus of of going deeper dive in a country. It gives it a good excuse to go to Piss. You normally wouldn't have gone. But that also wetted with learning Russian means is all good travelers being on the road and Russia going from unknown. `Oblast unknown seamless in speaking Russian. The whole time visit my where I am and might as well go to to Newark places. Ten Hunter show now. Nice Nice to meet you pleasure. Okay and complete nap pair. I WanNa thank you so much for joining me. Today it was truly awesome to sit down and learn more about you so thanks for taking your time. I WanNa take a moment to thank you as I said before. I got obsessed with Chinese. Listen Out of China's podcast and listen to podcast. In general I sorta listen to your podcast and the podcast actually was a very positive thing for me. I think most people have a certain way they they travel and they serve. Big Is the right way and I think travel should be an exercise. In general in empathy people from different cultures perspective attitude mentality but listening to other. Travelers story is a wellspring of empathy for people doing things in different way and I think most people most I admit most most most trouser admit that we have a certain way of looking at things. We tend to value it better than those folks travel that way but listen to your podcast with the deep indepth interview. I think it's really made me a better person. How I see. Other trailers develop more empathy for other people travel. I think empathy is is is the superpower for for travel in for relationship with their fellow man. So thank you rik. That's a great way to end in pair before we do our final sign off. Is there any way people can stay in touch with you or follow your travels besides looking at your map on nomad media? I'm very active on on social. Actually haven't really posted anything of his. But I can be found on on on on on facebook. My name is pair. Besson's you'll see all the show notes and everything. I'm on facebook pair. Thanks again so much. Thank you a great dinner in a fascinating conversation with pair pair of thanks for joining me and safe travels as you. Continue to follow your passion. Remember take a look at Patriot. Dot Com support counting countries. Become an awesome patrons so you can get additional Info content be like Visa Miles Ted Williams Ryan gaster in Adam. Hickman rakoff people and if interested think Bhutan November Madagascar in August of twenty twenty and remember the check at the g adventures Lincoln support counting countries until next time safe travels and keep on counting countries. You have been listening to counting countries. The only podcast to bring you the stories from the dedicated view who've spent their lives on the singular quest of traveling to every country in the world. Our theme music is D- meters dance. Written performed and provided by Mundi get their entire DISCOGRAPHY AT MUNDI WORLD DOT COM IMMU in I world dot com and keep up with rick and his own personal tribal quests at global GAZ DOT com.

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