19 Episode results for "University Of Maryland College Park"

A Constellation of CubeSats

Innovation Now

01:29 min | 1 year ago

A Constellation of CubeSats

"Significant damage to two space shuttle windshields was caused by debris. No larger than a Fleck of paint. This is innovation now bringing you stories behind the ideas that shave our future. Current technology can't pinpoint orbital debris in the sub millimeter two millimeter range, but something only a fraction of a millimeter in size can be dangerous to spacecraft or robotic missions in the near earth environment. A team from the university of Maryland college park has found a way to detect these tiny particles and Nasr's innovative advanced concepts program has given the team funding to evaluate their mapping technique. Here's principal investigator, Christine Hartselle. So our Nyack concept is to use an Equatorial constellation of cubesats to math, small orbital debris by detecting. The plasma saw Tun's produced by the debris salt on waves are really a signal. In the plasma density. We can measure them using using relatively simple instrumentation like Ling their probe a fleet of small satellites equipped with sensors could enable real time mitigation, which would mean fewer on orbit collisions and a safer spacecraft environment for innovation. Now, I'm Jennifer pulling now is produced by the National Institute of aerospace through collaboration with NASA and is distributed by w HR V.

Tun principal investigator Christine Hartselle Nyack university of Maryland college National Institute of aerospac Nasr Ling Jennifer NASA
Mapping Orbital Debris

Innovation Now

01:29 min | 2 years ago

Mapping Orbital Debris

"Significant damage to two space shuttle windshields was caused by debris. No larger than a Fleck of paint. This is innovation now bringing you stories behind the ideas that shave our future. Current technology can't pinpoint orbital debris in the sub millimeter two millimeter range, but something only a fraction of a millimeter in size can be dangerous to spacecraft or robotic missions in the near earth environment. A team from the university of Maryland college park has found a way to detect these tiny particles and Nasr's innovative advanced concepts program has given the team funding to evaluate their mapping technique. Here's principal investigator, Christine Hartselle. So our Nyack concept is to use an Equatorial constellation of cubesats to math, small orbital debris by detecting. The plasma saw Tun's produced by the debris salt on waves are really a signal. In the plasma density. We can measure them using using relatively simple instrumentation like Ling their probe a fleet of small satellites equipped with sensors could enable real time mitigation, which would mean fewer on orbit collisions and a safer spacecraft environment for innovation. Now, I'm Jennifer pulling now is produced by the National Institute of aerospace through collaboration with NASA and is distributed by w HR V.

Tun principal investigator Christine Hartselle Nyack university of Maryland college National Institute of aerospac Nasr Ling Jennifer NASA
Society for Cutting Up Men Pt. 1: Valerie Solanas

Female Criminals

42:40 min | 1 year ago

Society for Cutting Up Men Pt. 1: Valerie Solanas

"Due to the graphic nature of this woman's crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of Incest Sexual Abuse Assault Fault and strong language that some people may find offensive. This episode also includes discussions of sexual violence against children. That might be particularly Louis upsetting to some listeners. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. If you're aware of a child who's being abused or neglected neglected. You can report this to the National Child Abuse Hotline reachable at one eight hundred four a child which is one eight eight hundred four two two four four five three. You can also visit child welfare. Dot Gov for state by state resources for reporting reporting child abuse or neglect on November nineteenth nineteen fifty seven. The newspaper for the University of Maryland College Park released a column praising one of their students Max Schulman for a speech given at the associated collegiate collegiate press convention the talk purported that the matriarch he must be destroyed and Schulman suggested that violence against women would reinvigorate America's youth at the time the school was deeply entrenched in traditional values and gender stereotypes prototypes men were the thinkers. While women were the wives and homemakers but one student spoke cowed against this twenty one year. Old Valerie Solanas wrote a scathing response. Sir Cast tearing his argument apart heart and speaking out in defense of her fellow female classmates. She wrote the third rate. Philip Wylie `ISMs spewed forth is by Schulman was little more than a senseless unsubstantiated attack upon women his statements are pure bigoted drivel. Drivel Valerie's article sparked mass outrage for the next two months letters to the editor came pouring in mainly in defense offensive Schulman's patriarchal stance Valerie wrote a response. Each time with every letter more inflamed than the last asked in an especially memorable one she wrote the pen is mightier than the sword and my pen is dipped in blood. The newspaper's editorial staff forcibly ended the so-called war of pens refusing to publish any more letters letters but the conflict earned Valerie a new reputation on campus as Maryland's own little suffragette and in just just a few short years her writing would once again come to be associated with blood but this time it wasn't limited to the page picture a murderer a gangster. A thief did you picture a woman. We didn't think so- society the associates men with dangerous crimes. But what happens when the perpetrator is female. Every Wednesday we examine the psychology motivations vacations and atrocities of female criminals. Pi I'm Vanessa Richardson. And you're listening to female criminals apart cast original. You can find episodes of female criminals and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream female criminals criminals for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type female criminals in the search bar at par cast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network and and if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us as to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening? It really does help this week. Were discussing Valerie. Valerie Solanas a radical feminist writer and attempted murderer will learn how she overcame a childhood of poverty and and sexual abuse to put herself through college will also explore how this intelligent witty woman became obsessed with overthrowing throwing the Patriarchy by any means necessary. Next week we'll explain how Valerie Solanas met Andy Warhol and how Oh. She attempted to use his money and connections to further her radical ideals will hear how she shot and nearly she killed. The famous artist finally will delve into Valerie's life after the shooting and the lasting repercussions of her work. Doc Valerie seemed destined for scandal. Even before she was born her mother eighteen year old. Dorothy Blondeau was already pregnant with Valerie when she married twenty one year. Old Louis Lou. Salon US US in nineteen thirty six. It's unclear whether their marriage was born. Out of love or necessity the stigma of having children out of wedlock was still still strong. When Valerie was born in Ventnor City New Jersey on April Ninth Nineteen thirty six her younger sister Judith was was born two years later in nineteen thirty eight but the family wasn't built to last when Valerie was four Lewis this and Dorothy decided to separate sending their two young daughters to live with their maternal grandparents in Atlantic city? According to Brion Vase biography biography of Valerie accounts of her childhood personality. Vary some friends. Remember her as happy. Full of energy charm and vitality while others recall an aggressive and naughty girl who constantly found herself in trouble Valerie herself remembered that period as idyllic whether or not she was happy she was certainly intelligent she could read and write by age six and picked up up new ideas easily she also hated bullies defending the children who were picked on in the school yard. This aggression was unusual. Oh for Girls Valerie's age. But according to her sister Judith Valerie commonly defied gender norms. She refused anything. Feminine An and horsed around like the boy she knew. This may have been because Valerie had an especially close relationship with her father before her parents separated did when the family broke apart and the girls were sent away to their grandparents. Valerie may have felt betrayed and lashed out by pushing shing boundaries but two years after the separation when Valerie was six and judith was four their father requested that Valerie Start Spending Sundays with him during these visits according to a nineteen sixty eight report from two Valerie psychologists he he began sexually abusing. Her Valerie. Didn't tell anyone in her family. What was really happening? And they could never account for the dramatic changes in her behavior as she grew older before. We continue with Valerie psychology. Please note that I'm not a licenced psychiatrist or psychologist but I have done a lot of research for the show. According to a paper released by the American Counseling Association Childhood Sexual Abuse Has Been Correlated with higher levels of depression guilt and shame survivors of child. Abuse are also at a higher risk of engaging in compulsive or inappropriate appropriate sexual behaviors and may experience difficulty in establishing interpersonal relationships. By the time her parents officially divorced in Nineteen Forty seven eleven year old Valerie had transformed into a rebellious adolescent she and Judith had returned to their mother other who was now living in Virginia and Valerie made a point of never staying with her father from that point on preferring. Dorothy home or a friend's couch when necessary but soon after dorothy divorce was finalized she started dating piano. tuner named named Edward Moran or read for Short the couple married in nineteen forty nine and read officially moved into the family. Home he and Valerie did not get along and she chafed under his rule in nineteen forty nine. When Valerie salary was thirteen dorothy and read enrolled her in the Holy Cross Academy in Virginia hoping that the school would give her some discipline instead? Valerie frequently skipped class. The eventually running away to stay with a friend in the tri-state area next Dorothy in red tried public public school. But in her time there Valerie was bullied and often the subject of childish pranks she had a difficult time making friends with people people her age thanks to her. Intelligence and provocative behavior and her defiance of nineteen fifties gender norms continued through her teenage years while the rest of her female classmates obsessed over crushes and fashion. Valerie spent her time poring over books. She had no interest in the traditional life. Her classmates yearned for finding a man getting married and having kids and her behavioral issues continued. Finally Dorothy and Red Cent Valerie to a boarding school in the fall of nineteen fifty. When Valerie was fourteen her parents extensively center away because of the difficult time she had in other academic settings but it has also been suggested that the institute institute was actually a school? For wayward girls meaning young women who were pregnant out of wedlock. Valerie was expecting when she enrolled in the fall of nineteen fifty and nineteen fifty one. She gave birth to a baby girl. Linda Linda Moran Valerie never told anyone who Linda's father was. It's been suggested that the Father Might Have Been Louis Valerie's dad or perhaps her stepfather red. Whoever the father was the Moran Family wanted to spare Valerie from social ostracism awesome and they raised Linda as their own daughter? Linda never learned who her father was and in fact for the majority of her young life life she believed Valerie was her sister with her daughter in her parents care. Valerie was free to settle into life life at the boarding school which provided her with a new understanding of herself by all accounts. Valerie flourished there. It was the happiest I she'd been in years. She excelled academically and began to explore sexuality in ways that she couldn't have in public school she developed up to crush on a fellow female classmate and realized that she was attracted to women later in her life. She would claim that she'd only fallen in love. You've once with a girl from this school but as happy as Valerie was she wasn't ready to fully change her ways or stop seeing men altogether in the summer of nineteen fifty two. She started dating a sailor who was stationed near Virginia. After the Korean War he was older and married with children. But this didn't stop him from sleeping with fifteen year old Valerie before before long. She realized she was pregnant again. The sailor refused to take responsibility for the child. Dorothy Dorothy and read helped hide Valerie's second pregnancy from the rest of the world and in private urged her to give the baby up for adoption and they even found a suitable family. That was friends with the father. The Blackwell's they were an older couple who longed for a child of their own Valerie. WHO'd already experienced one? Four separation from a child resisted the adoption. But the Maran's made a deal with the blackwell little family. They could keep the baby if they helped pay for Valerie's college tuition. The Blackwell's accepted the offer happily and after her son David's birth in the spring of Nineteen fifty. Three Valerie handed him over after continued pressure from her her parents. To the sailor and to Valerie's family the pregnancy was a complication to be dealt with a source of shame and embarrassment harassment. But while the father returned home to his family without any lasting effects Valerie was the one who had to carry the child. Give Him away and watch him grow up in another family. A friend close to Valerie cited this as the turning point for her the moment when she started hating men and societies double standards towards sex outside of marriage in the nineteen fifties. A single woman having a child out of wedlock was perceived as ruined and would be shamed Dr Nancy Kayla rush a psychology professor at California State University in Sacramento noted. That many women at the time either had dangerous illegal abortions or chose to give the baby up for adoption but often it wasn't the mother's choice at all but that of her parents and in those is cases. The young mothers often felt shame guilt and lingering connection to their missing child that they tried to forget. Valerie kept in touch with the Blackwell family for the first four years of her son. David's life suggesting that she wanted some kind of relationship with him in fact she might have been perfectly happy raising David herself if it weren't for her parents interference but he never ever knew her as his real mother and once Valerie left for college she stopped visiting permanently. Although she'd successfully covered covered up her scandalous pregnancy. The teenage Valerie was in dire position by sixteen. She'd been kicked out of most academic institutions solutions. She enrolled in gained a reputation for flouting gender norms and given birth to two children but while she managed to scrape Raipur way through high school. Valerie was about to learn that adult life was even more unforgiving and she could get in more trouble double than ever before up next. Valerie hones her writing skills at her college newspaper setting setting her on the path toward militant. Feminism don't miss this falls also true crime must listen call me God the untold story of the DC sniper investigation from the leading true crime investigative. Live team that brought You New York Times Bestseller Evil has a name comes this new riveting probe into the manhunt for the elusive. DC snipers here the never before told story of the chilling and volatile investigation that led to the killer's capture and ended an unprecedented. Ed Twenty three day reign of terror that paralyzed the DC area and gripped. The Nation told firsthand by those essential to solving the case case and including a brilliant deep dive into the behavioral ballistic forensic and electronic analysis it required follow. FBI AH brothers. Jim and Tim Clemente as they lead listeners through the tangled path of discovery and evidence gathering only a select few who had the vision to see. Call Me God. The Untold Story of the D. C. Sniper investigation. How do you stop what you can't see? Listen free with a thirty day trial just go to audible dot com slash untold story. Hi It's Vanessa and I'm excited to tell you about an incredible show from podcast that you don't WanNa miss their four-legged legged full of love and oftentimes more like family than their nickname suggests dog tales tells the true stories of her ROIC canines who've gone and above and beyond their best friend duties every Monday. Dogs tails embarks on a new journey of courage service and unwavering sacrifice vice by our most loyal companions. You'll hear tales of inspiration from all breeds of life like buddy the German shepherd. The world's first seeing seeing I guide dog or Huskies Balto and Togo the sled dogs who made a lifesaving medical delivery from anchorage to nome each each episode of Dog Tales is as unique as the pups themselves. And sure to bring you closer to the furry friend in your life so get ready to sit. Stay and roll roll over with excitement for PODCASTS endearing series dog tales listened to dog tales. Free on spotify or wherever. You get your podcasts now. Back to the story despite an adolescence of poverty sexual schule abuse and psychological instability. Eighteen year. Old Valerie Solanas was intelligent and could compete academically when she chose chose to she graduated high school in Nineteen fifty. Four while living off and on with the Blackwell's and working part time to support herself she even managed to get a letter of recommendation from her principal. That Fall Valerie entered the University of Maryland. College Park at the time the men on campus vastly outnumbered. The women and the university upheld traditional social values such as the nuclear her family and narrow gender roles. Valerie believed in none of those things. She'd always defied norms preferring pants. NSEN jeans to dresses but she did more than wear slacks. She spoke her mind and defended her fellow. Women from the men who sought ought to take advantage of them she also identified as an out lesbian which was extremely uncommon for the era in fact a year before four Valerie enrolled in college then President Dwight d Eisenhower issued executive order. Ten four fifty this act barred heard. LGBTQ people from employment with the federal government and led to the firing of over five thousand employees suspected of being Enga- needless to say in this environment Valerie was the ultimate outsider and lacked friends. She began to garner a reputation for being slightly dangerous. She was so unaccustomed to people's kindness that she took advantage of it whenever she could. She often borrowed money from her classmates. Or ask them for repeated favors until they broke off the relationship when that generosity he was rescinded. Valerie retaliated against any minor slight in her freshman year. The story goes she was kicked out of her dorm. MM for fighting with another student living in the hall for whatever reason Valerie then moved to an off. Campus Basement apartment with three women when and one of the roommates offended. Her Valerie took her revenge by urinating in her jug of orange juice and returning it to the fridge. After that incident the university mandated that Valerie seek psychological counseling for her anger management. It didn't stick. She had to move into her own apartment and worked as a cocktail waitress and a sex worker to pay her rent. The latter wasn't an act of desperation nation. As is the case for some sex workers as her cousin Robert said she just enjoyed sex and using sex as a means to an end and although she frequently flouted convention -ality Valerie was incredibly smart funny and independent she. She majored in psychology and read constantly in her free time. She was often found dissecting and debating the concept she learned about in class ass she also started writing for the school newspaper The diamondback in Nineteen fifty-six she started with features stories about life on campus and events going on throughout the year but in nineteen fifty seven. When Valerie was twenty one she started writing more pointed feminist feminist pieces through these articles she honed the acerbic personality and sharp language that later characterized her writing? One particular exchange gained notoriety among the Student Body and earned Valerie the nickname Maryland's own suffragette on November nineteenth nineteen fifty seven the editorial staff. The diamondback wrote a favorable review of a speech given by student Max Shulman at the Associated Collegiate Press Convention. In his opinion America was at its best when run by restless restless men and the way to shoal woman who was the boss was to punch the girl. You've been going steady with in the nose to leave. No confusion confusion. Valerie wrote a fierce note in response. Signed by ten of her female classmates she called Schulman's piece a a senseless unsubstantiated attack upon women. She wrote a case in point is his statement that men come home at night too retired to make decisions. So the wife Willy Nilly has to. Of course. His wife isn't tired all she did all day was chase after the kids. Kids Cook Wash clothes shop free scrub floors et CETERA. While harassed Hubby warm deceit in an air conditioned office in between coffee breaks. But he's too tired to make decisions. Instead of ending the debate. Valerie's words only Ali inflamed Schulman's supporters. Harry Walsh a fellow student wrote to the newspaper the next week stating that these females els purposefully misunderstood Shulman's speech another non ass- writer commented women are meant to stay home and women women think they're too good to do housework and try to think over the next two months. Writers continued sending their opinions into the paper in what became known on campus as the war of hens. Finally the editors put an end to the whole affair on January anuary seventeenth nineteen fifty eight by declaring it. The last issue they would feature the debate in the exchange awarded Valerie a certain notoriety on campus and even got her a spot on the local radio show much like a modern day advice columnist. Both men and women began writing into ask Valarie questions about dating romance marriage. Jobs money and social etiquette Valerie answered with the same wit and eloquence that had brought her into the spotlight and people took her advice to heart. Despite her small claim to fame through her writing Valerie intended to pursue a career in evolutionary and biological psychology she graduated waited from the University of Maryland College Park in Nineteen Fifty Eight when she was twenty two and applied to the Master's program at the University of Minnesota Minnesota. She was accepted. Valerie began the fall of nineteen fifty eight with high hopes. Unfortunately the gender gender inequality she'd already noted in Undergrad became even more apparent at the University of Minnesota. She was one of only a handful full of women in the Master's program and while the school prided itself on having gender representation on campus it reserved its research money and hand job placement resources for the men disgusted with the whole system. Valerie lasted less than a year in graduate school. All according to reporter Judith. Coburn this was the point at which Valerie understood how the deck was stacked against any female. Who wanted wanted something? Other than marriage and motherhood from the fall of nineteen fifty nine to the spring of nineteen sixty. She hitchhiked and traveled the country making money however she could she gave up on her old dreams and sought out a new purpose. It it was now clear to her that the world offered little opportunity for professional women more often than not. They were secretaries and assistance to the men in in charge and had to set aside their own dreams in service of their male bosses goals. She didn't want to live that life but didn't know you know what else to do with herself. In the fall of nineteen sixty twenty four year old Valerie moved back to her home state state of New Jersey where she took classes at a local college and worked part time as a waitress. She started visiting New York City on the weekends. It was an epicenter for counterculture. In the nineteen sixties. New York City was one of the financial capitals of the world but it was also so a haven for writers artists poets filmmakers and others who disdained the nine to five lifestyle the city we also had a thriving. LGBTQ culture downtown were a number of gay villages areas that predominantly housed LGBTQ residents residents. One of the most famous was Greenwich Village. There for the first time Valerie found people with similar goals and experiences is even though she'd identified as a lesbian throughout most of her academic career Valerie often found herself the sole gay woman in her classes and and social circle but in New York Valerie was surrounded by like minded peers who flouted traditional gender norms and fought for their place in a man's world. The weekend visits gave Valerie new purpose and she quickly decided two things first. I she would one day live in Greenwich Village and second. She was going to be a writer. Her Sister Judith lived nearby at the time and Valerie visited her and her husband Ramon Martinez Ramon described the period. Saying I loved listening to Valerie. I'd stay they up half the night. You didn't talk. You listen to her theories she read everything. Her thinking was far in advance of everyone. She she talked about the mob. And how soon nate control all the information. Nobody was talking about that then and about men she had our a number. The mob was an imagined group of powerful men who controlled everything capitalism the spread of information even the social standards. That Valerie felt trapped by this hypothesis. Was the first inkling of the paranoia that would later come to dominate her life years later. Psychologists diagnosed Valerie with paranoid schizophrenia. A mental illness specifically categorized legalized by paranoia delusions of grandeur and occasionally hallucinations. Interestingly studies have proven that certain environmental title triggers can unlock schizophrenia in older patients including childhood abuse social adversity and hardship. All all things Valerie experienced in spades but wherever Valerie social theories came from they were an important part of her world view. Do they eventually formed the backbone of a dark comedic play. She started working on around this time. Her first piece as Bohemian Siemian Valerie felt like her life was finally coming together. She was writing something that she was passionate about. She was about to move to her dream neighborhood. She found real friends who actually understood her but she'd soon realize that chasing her dreams wouldn't wouldn't make her happy nor could it curb her growing violent impulses coming up Valerie's Valerie's experiences in Greenwich Village. Drive her to take drastic action against the privileged men who populated her world. Now back to the story Valerie. solanas survived childhood sexual abuse and constant poverty to become an intelligent articulate writer with a truly acerbic wit and in the summer of nineteen sixty two. When she was twenty twenty-six she finally saved up enough money to move to New York City and fulfill her dream of being a feminist writer she? She lived in a women's Residence Hotel on the upper west side which was far from her beloved Greenwich Village But she made up for the distance by getting a job at a coffee shop downtown and spending her free time wandering around the neighborhood shortly after her move. Valerie rewrote her father. A postcard saying I showed my uncompleted play to the director of Sheridan Square theatre. To get an opinion. He said said it had a lot of potential and he encouraged me to finish. I hope to finish in a month or two. It actually took Valerie another three years years to finally complete a draft of her play. Titled Up Your Ass as she worked on the draft. She did what she could to make weekend meet. When the coffee shop didn't provider with enough cash Valerie returned to panhandling and sex work? The expense and stress of living in New York took its toll on her. She often moved from place to place crashing on friends' couches when she couldn't afford rent studies have shown on that. Poverty and extreme instability can have a serious effect on mental health over time especially in adults age. Twenty six or older a report by the MIC Silver Institute for Poverty Policy and research at New York. University showed that close to twenty seven percent of adults living below low. The Federal Poverty Line had mental illness with four percent of those exhibiting extreme symptoms and suicidal thoughts. Valerie's extended offended financial. Hardship may have been another trigger for her worsening mental illness and her undiagnosed conditions seemed to impact her creative creative process. Her writing took on a more frenetic biting tone shaded by the paranoia that colored her own life for example in her replay. All men were sex crazed misogynists who were determined to keep women down while they were certainly a number of men like this in real life. The city was on the brink of the second wave feminist movement and women's rights were advancing in an unanticipated fashion. But Valerie three still felt driven to write about the world as she saw it she wrote with a huge manual typewriter that she brought with her wherever she stayed and when she didn't have room to store all of her belongings she often chose the typewriter over other necessities then in nineteen sixty five twenty nine year old Valerie registered the completed play with the Library of Congress Copyright Office. She said her mind on finding a producer and putting it on stage. This was easier said than done. The play and its characters bore a stark resemblance to her life in Greenwich Village in her attempt to convey her experiences Valerie. Didn't bother masking any of the vulgarity. That came with panhandling sex work drug use and the misogyny that she and other women in her profession faced on a daily basis. In in fact the play drew directly from Valerie's own experiences with men one of the male characters Russell tells the others that women and they'll be the destruction of society becoming more aggressive and competitive every day creeping slowly. But I surely into all the men's fields law obstetrics fashion designing in many ways. His point of view precisely nicely echoed that of Valerie's former classmate Max Schulman the infamous instigator of the war of pens. The play was crass foul mouthed and extremely cynical but it also touched on important issues core to second wave feminism such as rape culture limited promotions in the workplace the unequal distribution of Housework and the perpetual stereotype of women as wives is and mothers but these kinds of discussions hadn't hit the mainstream yet thanks to the plays unflinching and uncompromising viewpoint Valerie's struggled to get it produced or sold without money from the play. Her Financial Situation Grew Dyer in nineteen sixty. I five that year Valerie was kicked out of the hotel. Earle near Washington Square Park for missing payments. She moved to a Welfare Hotel called the village plaza and then to the Chelsea Hotel and already famous lodging for artists and Bohemians since opening its doors in eighteen eighty five the Chelsea had housed a disproportionate number of celebrities. This may have been because the owner Stanley. Dan Le Batard allowed certain tenants to default on their rent for months at a time because he believed they would one day be famous perhaps because of bards generosity. Valerie found a way to stay in New York City and continued to write and add to her portfolio. She wrote a piece for Cavalier magazine. Called a young girls primer or how to attain the leisure class it had similar themes to her play and was published in July of nineteen sixty six. The story was written in first person and described a day in the life of a lesbian panhandler and sex worker recounting incidents that in all likelihood Valerie herself had experienced while trying trying to make ends meet as with up your ass. The Young Girls Primer clearly laid out Valerie's world view on gender and male privilege judge with an acerbic and hilarious tone. In one excerpt the main character noticed a woman handing out pamphlets for university lecturer but only only to the men passing her on the streets when the main character asked why the girl replied instinct. I guess I don't have too many of these. He's and this lectures rather intellectual. You know so I hit those. Who Will you know? Seem intellectual Valerie wrote in response. I must admit I'm impressed. She's been programmed beautifully. The primer showed a clear. Personal Glimpse limps into Valerie's sense of despair and disillusionment in the six years. Since she dropped out of graduate school she'd seen little progress for women in the workplace or in society at large. Perhaps it was for this reason that Valerie began working in earnest on her next piece. The Scum Manifesto S C U M stood for the society. For cutting up the men it was Valerie's radical answer to male privilege. Her proposed solution was to completely overthrow the patriarchy by the time. Valerie's manifesto was completed second wave. Feminism was in full swing instead of facing immediate derision. Valerie's is ideas started to gain some traction. She had a willing audience for the first time but her success would be short lived a lifetime of rejection poverty and undiagnosed mental illness had made Valerie more volatile and dangerous than ever she was determined to make the world listen to what she had to say convinced that her point of view was the only way for women to and move forward. She was so focused on advancing her ideals. She neglected her own deteriorating mental state. She began behaving behaving more radically and violently and she was only months away from attempting murder. Thanks again for tuning into female L. Criminals. We'll be back next week with part two of Valerie Solanas story. We'll explore. How Valerie befriended artists Andy Warhol and and why? Her distrust of the world at large deepened until eventually Valerie turned on her one time friend nearly killing him. You can find all episodes of female criminals and all other par- cast originals for free on spotify. Not only does spotify already. Have all of your favorite music music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like female criminals for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream female criminals on spotify. Just open the APP and type female criminals in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Female Criminals was created by Max Cutler and is a podcast studios original executive producers include Max and Ron Cutler sound designed by Dick Schroeder with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Oh and Carly Madden this episode of female criminals was written by Liz Doro Vizsla on with writing assistance by Maggie Admire. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Don't forget to check out par casts original series dog tales. US every Monday dog tales shares inspirational true stories of loyalty courage and sacrifice by some of the most heroic canines is in history their incredible tales. You don't WanNa Miss Search for dog tales in the spotify APP and listen free today.

Linda Linda Moran Valerie Valerie Solanas Valerie Valerie psychology Valerie salary Red Cent Valerie spotify writer Dorothy Dorothy Max Schulman Vanessa Richardson New York City US Greenwich Village Judith Louis Lou facebook America Philip Wylie University of Maryland College
Secrets From a National Top Scorer

How to Learn Better Medical Education Podcast

20:35 min | 2 years ago

Secrets From a National Top Scorer

"Hello everyone welcome to the sixth and final episode of this season of the rash. Cast how to learn better as I'm sure you know by now. This is a podcast about the art and science of successful learning in health professions with your host. Dr Danica Coto with us. Today is most famous. Hello thank you for a moment through podcast on you. Well most is actually one of my favorite residence other than than tell by yourself by two University of Maryland College Park for undergrads to vcu in Richmond for Mexico. I'm actually Asian Asia does making sense but is the national. We moved here in. Nineteen ninety is a fifteen year. Old Refugee won't hard my life and In the MED school. What would look and now? I'm in residency. Where the best in the country for emergency? Now you're sitting funnier interviewing and very humble. He's not going to tell you that. He scored pretty much says one of the highest scores in the whole country in the in service for emergency medicine. So what are your secrets Pure luck but I guess not GonNa Work here cleanup nine match so for me. It was a trial and error the beginning obviously during residency have much time to study. So it's maximizing your time and the working slot essentially what I did. I think as an intern. I remember Dr. Mathu telling us if you just pick one case out of the shift that you saw go home rebounded. You'll have just accumulated a tremendous amount of knowledge towards the end of the year or end the residency. So when I was working shift I would pick a case that I was either weak on war that I had questions about or something I already know by just forgot I would go back and read not necessarily a full chapter on it but just tidbits here and there if I wanted to for example I saw a case of vassal next yesterday and I was like you know what I forgot the Clinton some works and how certain medications works admitted stoneworks. I'm GonNa read about that. I just read about twenty minutes and I understand. I think majority Tony's working twelve hour shifts. You can go home. They can be very difficult because during tiring to be honest. I didn't do this every day. But this as much as I can. I think that was the first step into learning as much as I could during this time. So this is actually pretty interesting. Because you're talking about a very important concept which is linking what we're learning. Take what we're doing absolutely and giving it some sort of personalized interests. Yes because you're walking that case in thinking what you just said with. For example Hobby particular antibiotic you are linking it to a need that you have so you are self driven. You're like okay wait. This is actually important to me because I just realized I don't know what it is in two years to point out that you should not be reading or you don't actually read the whole chapter about whatever topic. It is because one. That's really boring. Sarcoma remember fighters redefined the radio DJ after he ever. You're absolutely right because at this point especially at this point in our training in our knowledge you are not first year medical student who is still completely utterly new. Where every single sentence in that chapter is GonNa be a brand new a holloman. Sometimes it's not Sleep through the PJ but at least you are actually turning things that you need any point out. Something really good which is twenty minutes. This is a very realistic goal. Because we worked twelve hour shifts or we work. I were charged added a long long time schedule however I do try that by the way so I'm not as good bye as it should be but when I go home afternoon typically but then when I actually turn my alarm on like a timer and it's twenty twenty five minutes because that way I feel okay. We have to use my time. Well I'm not GonNa sit around Sarah Think about launch. And that's what you do so I read a book if I'm so tired to the point that I usually have a podcast. Listen to and sometimes doesn't maybe twenty minutes of podcasts. On top if I can find it but I try my best every day to at least read a highlight of subject that I saw a case that I saw that that day. So that's almost every day but like I said not. Every day it happens There are times when I'm working five shifts. We have just like obsolete tired. The nonviolent not absolutely not not I have never heard by the duty hours. You're what I'm saying is there will come a day where you just hired needle fled doing anything in that situation. That rest be healthy. So you're a stunning time. You walked actually bouncing. Shouldn't be go home? Study and go back towards golden study at. That's not healthy so this important that you have a pretty Healthier habit outside of work for me. I guess if I'm tired or something. I usually watch the show. I'm watching shameless. Finale coverage of whatever makes you less stress. Whatever helps with stress. I would do that if you work out all the time he do. I haven't lived in anything for the past. Just just don't have time for that or too lazy maybe two walkout but whatever helps you de-stress Ahmadou unless anxious study every single day but definitely try to read something at least fifteen twenty minutes a day. So you're earlier was really good about how you can become a better clinician about finding. What are your deficits in knowledge? That more about thumb however we all know that as much as people try tests. Don't Really Mirror clinical work and you end up having to study somewhat differently for the test. Yeah so as far as I think. A realized after Multiple Sunrise exempts taken wits about kind of i-i'd says but cramming as much as possible right before he's not necessarily a day before the exam but maybe a couple of months before the exam is like a crunch time for For huge entertain for example. When I was studying for step two we had one month exactly to describe as much as possible and then dig test so I think it's the same way for our servants exam de now that you have to have a little different than what you use on daily basis for clinical practice for this test. I basically did questions in addition to my pointed day of Case that I saw I actually made a couple of months before the test. I was doing Russia view about that this year. This was not a solicited comments lessons. Weekly can I say? These tools are users. Thanks so much of this John. I use Russia view. I did use Russia view and also use peer nights a lot of questions so as much practice questions as possible because I think if you read a book like I said you'll remember you know if you're lucky maybe ten percent of what you reach and you're tired when you're reading it you go sleep next. They don't remember much. I think he gets apply. What you learn you need to get a right now to say after boost socking Elyssa you gotta apply what you learn. Go outside what you learn that I feel like when you go into questions you also figure out what you don't know just like Cases they see on a daily basis. And then if you need to go into more detail about that and he can probably pick a book. That's good comprehensive and read about that. That's what I would end. Were there any particular tips on how you would actually retain this knowledge? So in the dust the repetition ubiquitous repeat though because those are you talking about two sources that have hundreds of questions. How many are you gonNA keep repeating this? What I did was. I think I took my time. We'll do the questions if I knew cold as I really knew. Answer advanced affected. I was finding it. If about the question if I missed it. They'll go back at some point real questions or Redo the questions that I missed another thing when I say repetition you also passively getting things and you don't realize because you the questions you're listening to forget about something you're seeing patients about the you know when you're working. I think that basically reputation enough you'll read about. I don't know ACS Do podcasts. Someday when you're driving something and then you question a question that doing pops up with. Acs You do the question you ask a question you go to work in his vision with ACS when I say as he has occupied syndrome and then the second repetition task repetitions call it without even realizing you are repeating it but I think towards the end of the exam. You just have to do the questions that you missed again if you have time and then the only way only use the book if to look something up which is rare. 'cause the questions themselves explanations. You don't really Two books at the end. I read maybe the rapid review but a few days before exact which is up three days. So I think that's repetition repetition different format exactly. You're talking about reading articles earlier when you're talking about reading about your cases sometimes going for book chapters for things like that sometimes going to podcast. You're and then linking data with what is some sort of discussion while you're seeing these patients and then the questions and the explanations the questions that doesn't different formats you're talking point out though that reading case Russians. That's a lot of resources reading a book and read. Listen to podcasts. Do throughout the year. We'll actually dacians but when it comes to primarily prepare for death us one source of one source only mostly questions and the second possibly maybe things that need to read up more on if I keep us in the same question. I actually hear what you're saying reflecting back on the time when taking be or will the written sports for emergency medicine. It was the same thing you look up the year to actually learn all these things to become a better clinician. And as you said you blanket Tidbits you blanket to what you've seen and you make actually important to you in that is how kind of super bowls itself in term memory but then Tasks one thing was using a question bank. That already had decent for the fashion. So that was a huge time saver because if after reading the question in not understanding like as you said if you know the answer cold like whatever. This was so easy I can do it. In my sleep you click and you move forward but not the gun today. Explanation to read it and if the explanation was not thorough and you had to you know stop and go back and look for more answer somewhere else. I think a lot of time. It was rather time consuming. Yes so using that one source or questions horse whatever it is that has a decent explanation after it is going to help a lot and when I also used for review books so there's a ton of review books for whatever it is that you're doing whether it's emergency medicine whether it step to whatever it is that you're doing a lot of books out there that are targeted for this type of learning which is focused. And you're trying to refresh your memory or not trying to actually understand how Culinary Syndrome HEAVENS FROM SCRATCH. Shield the day before your taxes. If that's what you're doing there's a little bit of a bigger problem. There is now yet study for tests different than actually learning things. Because I think a lot of questions they ask General not necessarily something. You will see this is not. It's not like a book thing when you see visions very atypical. Everything's different. There's gray area so think studying you just have to take time out. Some people are slow learners of fast. I think I'm maybe right in the middle lane faster slower learner but if you think you need more time obviously you can. Maybe do four months before I wasn't doing more than like five or ten questions today. And obviously you can do a lot more if you have a an elective or if you have a rotation that light on the schedule on if it's really really busy can do one or two today. But you don't have to go through entire bank where entire question as long as you're doing question up until the point take tests and then rest few in all two or three days before the test Be That's exactly what I did them. That was I think the ideal study. I think that one of the themes or patterns that hearing from using a very realistic Bowie expected yourself. I mean people talk about this. You know what God bless them. They could actually do that where they come back from. A twelve hour shift and he can read for three hours in like. There's this thing called sleep. Laundry Madre not doing bathrobe. Minority tell and the foul is Nelga when people are not realistic. Continue to have this feeling of guilt where you're like well. I should have done fifty questions on the day after a shift Or on my one day offer have to take care of life. You know because life doesn't stop just because you went to work you have to pay your bills into your laundry all these things and take care of your family. Take care of yourself if you don't have a realistic expectation of yourself. Then you're gonNA end falling short. You're anti you're getting up in the cycle. And that's what I'm hearing from. You is that you very realistic by expectations of yourself. And I think that's completely Keaton Scrapping put the perfect. You know exactly into the office excused up now now. You're talking about a realistic goal. Making a plan and sticking with it and the being consistent on that fans probably the biggest thing I think in my earlier days when I was studying I would just say. I don't WanNa do this today tomorrow but you never end up doing it but if you actually make the plan is a list I really WANNA have goal. Have a goal of this score. I really do on this or something else in life. Whatever you WANNA do make the plan stick with it once. It becomes habit. I think it's hard to break so you have to wake up in the one of the bus cheese no matter what if you don't brush the dirty bad bad breath scraper but you know what? I feel cramped brushing my teeth today. So it's like that. I think it's just that if you keep doing it. Nick apply to keep doing this over again. You're in the developing a habit. That's hard work. You just said a whole bunch of really awesome things. I think that one you talked about having a specific goal came on how the scoring. I think that at some point in time we have to go through some so many sess your site. I have to go to the task without actually having the goal of wanting to a sit or house it even it gets to this point where Gao has seen service going to the INSERVICE or whenever Senate assessor talking about in town yourself no I want to. Acs just like said like everything life. You don't tell yourself. Oh I want to be some sort of kind of doctor Allen media doctor but not tell yourself you know what we do this every morning or every night depends on how you work. Is you go to work until I suffocate. Today I'm going to provide the best care can and when you hold yourself to that standard. That's when you start feeling like okay. Wait on committed to my plan and as you said creating these habits like brushing your teeth in the morning some people have these things your e created of as much as possible trying to read for a few minutes even for just twenty minutes which is better than zero 'cause if he calculated twenty minutes three times a week. That's an hour. There's a lot right. That's fifty hours more than someone who does not do that. Maybe say burn the shoe though because I don't feel that you learn what I feel like a same time but towards the end of the year. It just accumulates you just between eating anthem. Sometimes you keep repeating it and that way just sticks it doesn't you don't forget if you don't read you go home. They'll do anything she deficient. You may never see that case again and they forget about the case next thing you know we have the same case. GonNa do I. Did this like you're going? I'm not sure I'm going to the second flashing exactly all right. Any final pieces of wisdom Droid residency is for you. Learn a lot for best. This oriental dinners trae. Best and Stay healthy thank you so much for your time for sharing all this with us. We talked about a lot of things. We talked about having realistic goals. Putting it into short little segments of work linking it to what you do what you see so he can make it relevant to you looking at completely different forms of information whether articles podcast. Sir Questions so that he can continue to repeat the same information just in different forms help you. We talked a little bit about common seeing the continues to come up. Which is how. It's very different when we're learning to become better whereas when we're learning for tasks in how when you're learning to be better clinician. That's when you have all these sources in the articles in Pakistan however when he got closer to task you kinda focus narrowed down. Stick to your questions and their answers. How identifying your needs is GonNa be your number one whether it's for questions were when Practice and finally be helping. Take care of yourself. Yes similar springs an interesting perspective into this conversation because he not only talks about tests but talks about how to integrate learning to your clinical work and learning is stronger when it matters when the object information becomes personal. Which is while looking into a case that you've seen makes it a lot more memorable. If you WANNA think about it that way then clinical shifts can be like quizzing yourself. You Stop Your reflect you. Try to figure out what you have not done. Well what you WANNA learn about what you could learn more about gather feedback from people around you and take that as a way to figure out your deficits and enhance your self awareness and reflection is essential in all fields but especially in the medical field outside of just pure medical knowledge. There's a lot more complexity to our jobs. That reflection helps with this helps. Identify your needs and actually is a lot more consistent with how adults learn adults want to learn and are more invested in learning things that they think they need so once he added to find that need that alone creates that connection and interest. This improves retention and keeps you engaged. In addition it helps you create that growth mindset. And if you continue to do this after every shift or most of your shifts Mussa mentioned then creates self discipline and persistence. Mussa talks about the reality of the disconnect between clinical work and testing and mentions cramming or masts studying as a way to get over that in actually prepare for tests and Avi -ality crowning does work. It increases your scores on the immediate tests but it does not help with information retention which is why dividing. You're studying for example. Twenty thirty minutes a day would help you pretend information a lot better than that cramming if we're talking about is longterm information retention he also talks about a common theme which is questions for learning which enhances your self awareness gives you an opportunity to learn interactivity and it was a lot of question banks. The correct answer shows up an explanation. Something that's interesting actually. Is that if there is a brief delay between you doing the questions? And then you're getting the feedback. That is better because if you get used to having immediate feedback so for example looking at the question realize even got it wrong and then looking at the correct answer would be one that creates a dependence on this process which is really. GonNa Weird you out when you're doing the actual test and it interrupts the task of you answering the questions so if you have the option of doing the questions uninterrupted five ten twenty in a row whatever you have time for and then looking at the correct answers than try that because that's probably going to be more helpful. Thank you for taking the time to listen to. The rash gassed how to learn better. Follow us on twitter at Kolja and send your comments questions and thoughts. You can also share them on her blog or if you prefer email send your thoughts to how to learn better at Rauscher view dot com. We are planning season two and would love to hear your ideas and topics covered until next time goodbye.

Russia Mussa Dr Danica Coto intern Richmond MED school Dr. Mathu Asian Asia vcu University of Maryland College Clinton Mexico Tony Sarah needle Elyssa twitter Pakistan
Splitting Up, But In It Together: Divorce In 2020

1A

35:18 min | 1 year ago

Splitting Up, But In It Together: Divorce In 2020

"This is one A.. I'm Todd Willik in Washington. Getting a divorce is never easy. But it's the twenty first century in mediation without the courts involved is on the rise so is it a good idea. That child custody should be split between both parents in the idea that divorce as an institution isn't just not so bad. It's actually pretty pretty normal now. The impact of divorce is long term and it's widespread effects affects not just the couple but their kids their friends their extended families and everybody else around them. New Research shows. That millennials are starting to recognize that divorce and marriage are both serious business and that's led lead to a divorce rate and marriage rates. That are both dropping. Well here to talk about divorce in the twenty first century is Philip and Cohen. He's professor of sociology at the University diversity of Maryland College Park. And he's here with me in the studio Professor Cohen. Thanks for being here. Hi thanks for having me and also joining us from NPR. New York is Jacqueline Newman. Managing partner owner of the divorce law firm Berkman Bacher Newman and shine. LLP She's also author of the new rules for divorce twelve secrets to protecting your wealth your health and and your happiness counselor welcome. Thanks so much for having me for having you a Professor Cohen. Let's start with the big number because this was surprising. Divorce rates are dropping in the staff that you always hear it's like a like a truism in American culture. You know half of all marriages end in divorce. Is that true. Well it's it's it's never quite been true. Those we've never gotten to a cohort of marriages where fifty percent of them ended in divorce. We've we've gotten pretty close and we are pretty close and probably really A reasonable guesses that somewhere between forty and fifty percent of divorces now of marriages now will end in divorce But the key thing is that After a peak In the last twenty years or so it appears to have been declining now for the last ten years now we understand that between two thousand eight and twenty sixteen divorce rates dropped by okay eighteen percent. That seems like a lot what caused the decline. Well the baby boom generation are the people who brought us the really high divorce rate sank They're the people who Ironically were born into that classic typical supposedly typical wonderful family of the fifties and as soon as they were old enough to get married. Dale so started started getting divorced. They brought us very high divorce. Rates that restarted in the seventies and into the eighty s But as they've aged out the generations that followed them having brought the higher divorce rates with them in the the decline that we've report for the last ten years is driven entirely by younger people people under age each forty five and I think it's mostly related to the fact. That people are being more selective in getting married so they're more likely to be older when they get married more likely to have college degrees when they get married. So marriage is becoming more selective and divorces becoming more rare marriage is becoming more selective. Let's drill down. That means you're you're further along in life you're more established you know yourself better right E- those are all yes. Those are all a reasonable you know it's it's hard to say what makes marriage successful on in in the big picture But it's generally the case that people who are more successful in one realm like like careers education and so on going to be more successful and other things like marriage meant so It's part of our system inequalities the when it rains it bores and the people who are doing well in other realms are also ended up doing better in their marriages now. What about people who were not doing well? What about people at the lower end of the income scale low income couples are their their rates higher Yeah they're more likely to get divorced. They're also less likely to get married in the first place. So the overall marriage declining among young people we mentioned why drives a lower divorce rate but the overall marriage is we should say is lower. All this cohorts yes absolutely now baby boomers. The old folks have got divorced a lot. They're aging. The younger millennials are waiting longer and not getting married as much may be they have fewer social mores enforcing marriage. What about the people in between what about the people who are fifty right now? L. Fifty Eight. What's going on with the marriages Well they still have a higher divorce rates than in the past. We all have higher divorce rates than the past. I mean the olden days divorce was was quite rare And ironically what's happened now is divorced. Become more acceptable less stigmatized less people are against divorced but less people are also doing it And so I think it's really opened up. The is open up the conversation to something like a divorce because We're not so against against divorce anymore. People put a very high value on having a really good marriage as one of the reasons why they delay marriage is they have a very high expectation for what marriage should be like Jacqueline. Jacqueline Newman Ura divorce lawyer. You're practices based on it. Do you find more people willing to accept the notion of good divorce absolutely i. I think there's been a major shift in the way that people viewed divorce And something you had mentioned earlier is about mediation. There's something called collaborative law. There's a lot of different things things and ways that people get divorced that just didn't say didn't exist in the past so people have this view of the war and you see the inside of a courtroom and that's just not the case anymore will divorce rates appear to be down Jacqueline Newman but they're occurring regularly People were saying our editorial meetings that January is divorce month. I thought that was like some kind of weird hallmark holiday. I didn't like the sound of it that somebody had come up with that but is it true that people get divorced more often. This time of year absolutely January really is divorced And the reason being is that more people come in to see a divorce attorneys in January. And if you think about it they don't WanNa go through through anything during the holidays. I always say you don't WanNa summons for divorce in your stocking so people want to get through the holidays and then come January. They're in a situation where they WANNA start information gathering during about the divorce process and they want to basically educate themselves as to what the next steps would be. If they don't want to end the year they started at So January they're making making moves maybe the resolution to get out of marriage. That's not working for them. February March Your Business. is the peak of the year. Yeah usually find that February anyway people digest and usually it's around this spring that people really move forward in divorce. Well one of our listeners called in to share one thing that happened to him and his partner when they had a divorce. I made it significantly easier. Here's Travis in Philly. One thing that happened in my divorce About a year ago. That was interesting was my spouse and I went to counseling during the divorce process and even though we lack the ability to get into counseling before Our marriage was over. We found a way to make the process better when actually divorcing divorcing and going through the court system. Jacqueline Newman how interesting. They never went to counselling to try to save the marriage but once it was accepted that it was going to be the divorce. Counseling helped there. Do you see that frequently. You know I do see it And I think it's excellent. I think it's a great idea because moving forward especially if there are children involved vowed you need to learn how to co parent so it's really important to try to do everything you can to preserve the relationship post divorced but we usually have involved in something called divorce coaches coaches which are therapists trained in divorce and so a lot of times. People will work with divorce coaches going through the divorce either individually or together to basically be Clinton that position to be able to cope and going forward Phil Cohen We got a bunch of questions about what divorce looks like. Now give you one or two What are the divorce rates for? Same Sex couples compared to opposite sex couples. Do we know yet We we don't know yet Unfortunately our system for recording data about divorces is pretty pretty spotty states record divorces but they don't report them in any systematic format. So we're left basically with surveys and so the numbers I was talking about before. Come from the Census Bureau which does a giant survey for year but It hasn't been going on long enough oh it doesn't have the level of detail for long enough to answer the question about same sex the gates record legal divorces but they don't report them out in a meaningful way right. I'm so We used to have a divorce. Rates compiled by the federal government from data provided by the states. But now a number of key states like California have opted out of that system and the federal government can't can't count official divorces anymore so instead we rely on these surveys and California's a big one randy tweeted. This is the lower divorce rate possibly connected to people living together and breaking up whereas in earlier eras those couples would have gotten married and then divorced absolutely. I think one of the things that's happening. We see a rising age at marriage and a lot of people. Most people have lived together before they get married. And so We don't necessarily have fewer breakup altogether but we have more breakup occurring before marriage had so many friends not married but have lived with someone broken up and said you know it just feels like A. JV divorce force which is really according to the data what it was. We're talking about how to navigate divorce in the twenty first century. Speaking with Jacqueline Newman. Divorce Attorney from New York. Also Philip Cohen one professor of sociology at the University of marriage a University of Maryland College Park. Maybe we could use a university of marriage. We're GONNA talk more about divorce in the twentieth century after the break. I'm todd lick its support for this podcast and the following message come from Uber. Uber is committed to safety and to continuously raising the bar to help make safer journeys for everyone for starters. All drivers are background checked before their first ride and screened green on an ongoing basis and now uber has introduced a brand new safety feature called ride check which can detect a trip goes unusually off course and check in to provide support support to learn more about Uber's commitment to safety visit Uber Dot com slash safety. The world is complicated but knowing the past can help us understand stand. It's so much better. That's where we come in. I'm Rhonda unremitting Louis and we're the host of through line. NPR's history podcast every week. We'll dig again to forgotten stories from the moments that shaped our world through line from NPR. Listen and subscribe now well. Divorce is a lot. aww things on a lot of levels but one thing it definitely is is a is a legal break so in that regard. What's a big thing that's changed about divorce versus? I don't thirty years ago. So one of the biggest things I'm seeing is really the change in the custody so back in the day. I think that it was probably presumed that Mama get custody and dad would have every other weekend weekend and Wednesday dinners. And that's just not the case anymore. Now you have many more fathers who want to be involved. They want fifty fifty access. Time with their children and courts are supporting this because because it's very important to courts that children both parents involved. It's just a major shift in the way the courts are looking at custody. What's the difference between a divorce? That's a case. That's mediated in court. I guess decided in court versus mediated outside of court is it. Is it best to avoid court simply on the basis of cost or the substantive differences prince's between those two routes they're completely different processes so ultimately you know a big advocate of trying to keep things out of court if you can that said you know the strategic partner. He does acknowledge the fact that sometimes you know court it is important to go to court and sometimes the court can provide relief that you can't get otherwise but ultimately when you're working in mediation you're working with one person as a mediator is neutral and usually the couple will have attorneys on the outside meaning that they're not usually in the sessions mediation. It's great process. Says if you can do it it's somewhat self selecting it doesn't work for everyone but ultimately if you can resolve things in mediation like for an example if you're able to resolve custody mediation and you have to litigate for the finances. I still tell people I think. That's better ultimately you're saving yourself. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees and I always say awesome in therapy bills. You you can split it up. In other words you can do part of the divorce in mediation part of it in court if you need to is court usually reserved if you're doing it right for like they're really the acrimonious cases like you can't stand look each other in the face you get nothing. You'll have to fight me for every last thing even the tires on the car. So you've got to go to court. I mean usually if you have that kind of Sort of situation. You probably will end up in court but the thing that I think about the the thing about court that most people don't recognize that first of all people think they're going to go and they're they're gonNa you know the judge is going to be so angry your spouse for doing x. y. z.. And that just doesn't happen. They think they're going to get their quote unquote Dane and you don't get your day in court and the court is incredibly credibly expensive. It's it's the slow process and you know it's an incredibly frustrating process again. Sometimes you don't have options if one person ops to be in court you're both in court. I mean that's the way it works. You mentioned child custody briefly and some people have been contacting us on this basis. There there used to be a perception. That courts really favored women when it came to child custody and there are groups of there. Are Men's groups out there now. Lobbying at the state level to try to change custody laws because they believe those laws are tilted toward women is it is it still the case I mean. I think that it's shifting and I think you know what I tell. People is that in say five to ten years. It's going to be the burden of the spouse who saying it should not be fifty fifty. Does that exist right now. Probably not but again you know. I've had clients you know ten years ago I had a client who came amen. And he didn't see children that often. During the week he worked a ton loved his children wanted to spend a lot of time with them and the court basically said you know what we're not gonNA give you. Do you know more and more access than you would normally have had because that's not historically what's happened for these children and now when I have clients that come in that are men that maybe are not as involved in the day to day caretaking because of the fact they work and maybe their wives take that major on that major role. They now say you know what I'm going to switch my career around or I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. I'M GONNA make myself self available in courts are supporting it. They're saying listen. We'll do everything we can to try to support both children being as involved sorry both parents being as involved as possible with their children. So I m seeing a great great shift. David tweeted us to to say that marriage should be a renewable contract. First Time you sign up for a one year term six months out. Both parties party's declare an intention to renew otherwise it simply dissolves form a benefit corporation for your family shareholders. Now talk about unromantic but does is it. Does that logic make any sense to you you know. I had a friend once who used to say that every morning I wake up and decide if I want to be married and you know there's some truth to that because if you really did want to get divorced as we said you know it's possible to do whether you actually have to document it. I don't know about that but conceptually speaking every day. Everybody makes a decision. That contract contract exists. It's just in your mind if not on paper I WanNa bring in Liz Lens now. Lind's Liz you're here because you've been through divorce and you've written a lot a lot about it including a viral Glamour magazine. It was called. I'm a great cook now. I'm divorced. I'm never making dinner for a man again this Lens. Welcome Hi thanks for having me great to have you. Why was it important for you to write about your experiences and write about it so publicly? Well well I think that. Even though we're in twenty twenty there is still Like a cone of silence around the around divorced and the the divorce process After I wrote about that I had so many women reaching out to me talking to me about their own marriages about their own divorce processes and I don't mean people are just so afraid of saying here's the ugly truth because even now near Divorce is still seen as a failure and I want to shift the conversation and talk about how divorce can be a sign of success of two people saying this. Is it working and trying to find something better. We we got this from C.. Boom on twitter. I divorced after twenty three years. My ex and I are the best of friends but couldn't be our best selves. When we were married we love each other and focus on being the kind of humans for are grown daughter? It's not easy but it's better than when we were married. Liz Lens I would guess that that statement means a lot to you it does and I think So many people say oh they don't want a divorce For the kids but I wanted to divorce for my kids because I wanted my children to see what it was like to have a mother who was happy and successful and had a career and those are not things I could be while I was still married but LIZ is. There are a lot of people listening. Now who are having those this feeling. This is all moral relativism. This is younger. People taking the easy way out in my day marriage marriage you were in it. You stayed in it and it meant something. It was an dishonorable contract. Whether that's in the church or not and everybody's just taking the easy easy way out now and it's bad for families You Know I. It's not bad for families. I'll tell you what's bad for families to parents constantly in crisis and conflict inflict and that's what's bad for families and you know anybody who's been through divorce will tell you it is not the easy way out Keeping it it together keeping your temper in check to go through a mediation process. When there's like history of her I was married for twelve years? you know and and That is not the easy way out and anybody who's been through. That can tell you I. I don't think it is moral relativism awesome. I think its defining new success new ways of Understanding what's a predictive relationship in and And I I think we need to have these conversations. I've had a lot of older women. Talk to me quietly. Who have said you know? I wish maybe I had done that when I was your age age gotten out while I could but you know we've been married for forty years so it might be a little too late but you know I think happiness is a choice and I I think the more you empower people to make that choice the better off. They're going to be like you like we talked earlier. Divorce rates are declining. So our marriage rates right so when you give people choices and say you're empowered to be happy. Then they're going to make the best possible choices for their line. Are you were married for twelve years. How old were you when you got married? I was twenty two. That's yeah I mean. Do you look back on that and think that that was. I don't necessarily want to call him a mistake. I wasn't inside your marriage but was that one of the factors you think that contributed. Well I will. I'm a lot different than my millennial. Cohorts I was raised deeply deeply conservative in Texas you know we were home. Schooled or the gene jumpers. And for me and my life waiting until I graduated from college to get married was was a huge deal was You know it was it was really radical. I had a lot of people in my life saying oh just getting get married now and I was like no this education important to me. This is what I really value in my life and And so you know I think it's a matter of perspective respective right If if that's how you're raised than the twenty two is not an early age to get married I wouldn't call my marriage mistake AAC. I don't think anybody would call their marriage of mistake but it's It's life is a journey to say they're all on it and you know it's It's important that We keep our life in our experiences in context. I have two wonderful children trend and we work really hard to Co parent them despite our differences will let's hear from Alex speaking of being conservative and getting married young and getting divorced. My name is Alex and I live in New Mexico. I went to a really conservative Christian College in Virginia and I saw a lot of my friends and classmates. They were getting married at eighteen summit seventeen but almost everyone before twenty at the time. I felt fairly jealous. Left out but as the years have gone on has the last decade has passed I see so many of them getting divorces and instead of being critical that I watched them things like social media. And in Times that I've been able to attract attractive in person becoming home. New People having this opportunity to actually experienced young adulthood in a way that allows them to pursue education pursue their careers And a lot of them have done it in sort of this new amicable way. They're still friends with their axes and everything that that's a great development for our culture. We have a lot more to come after a quick break more advice on what to do before divorce during divorce and most importantly after divorce we're going to hear from our experts and we're we're going to hear a lot more from you in just a moment on Todd's it's one eight support for this podcast and the following message come from the Walton Family Foundation. We're opportunity takes root more information is available at Walton Family Foundation Dot Org. NPR's code switch which is a podcast about race in America. That's about all of us are histories. Power represented the ways we worked together and worked against each other. You'll learn you might get mad. You'll definitely laugh but don't take my word for it just listen to NPR's code. Switch back to our conversation on divorce in America with attorney. Jacqueline Newman professor of sociology. Philip Cohen and writer Liz Lens about the impact of divorce on today's couples and their families up Professor Cohen. We were talking before the break about young marriage and rates of divorce. What do we know? Well Time wise in the fifties and sixties. Almost everybody got married before each twenty-five And and divorce was almost unheard of so you have very low rates of marriage when when a low rates of divorce when divorces basically not allowed but now the divorce is allowed We find that the highest risk of divorces among people who get married at young ages before Oris twenty-five or even younger And I think one reason for that is That are sort of our adult are early. Adulthood is longer takes longer to grow up now. How people spend more time Getting to finish their education going to college and whatnot and I find a lot of my students especially women in my classes. Who Want to Delay Marriage until after they finish their education because they want to enter the marriage on an equal footing with their future spouse. And and you can't really do that at a very early age because you don't have you don't know where you're going to end up and his young marriage and anomaly now I mean if you're nineteen and getting married today to your Your cohort your friends People in your age group think that's weird That is I wouldn't say weird. It's very unusual. I'm so the average age Marriages up around twenty twenty eight For Women a little higher for men and people getting married in their early twenties. It's become quite uncommon. Talk a little bit more about the impact of income on divorce rates. You mentioned that low income people have higher divorce rates. Break it down a little bit what we know about income strata about annual salary or just assets and what that means to whether people get married in the first place and then stay together. Well we find that people who have higher incomes higher education are more likely to get married worried. Although ironically they sort of need marriage less especially in the case of women of what used to be that women who would marry a man with a higher income to increase their own income assets That's less the case now. But it's still true that people with higher income and education are maybe more desirable in the marriage market so to speak or also more I'm able to get what they want out of the dating scene and so It's it's flipped in the last few decades where people with higher education and income are now more likely to get married instead of less likely Jacqueline here's a note from Michael that I think you could help with Michael Says my wife has health issues. We're considered low income she gets gets. SSI based on my income. I can't afford to ensure her and continue to pay the bills. We've been told that if we divorce. She would qualify for Medicaid. A lot of of our friends and relatives have divorced under similar circumstances. We love each other but we may have to divorce to get her health issues addressed. Is this something you see. You know I don't see it all that often. I will acknowledge I generally deal more in the high net worth space but I do see people that sometimes are trying to get divorced to avoid debt situations. Sion's I mean you. It's probably not common. I wouldn't say it's more common but it definitely does happen. You know people will do things to try to kind of work the system. Shall we say if they have to fill Cohen. I think those cases are more likely on the margins. I don't think The financial or legal The tax benefits or penalties are really driving the bulk of marriage and divorce decisions. But you do see in the marginal cases where there may be a particular benefit or a particular debt problem where you find the divorce. May may be affected. One place you actually see this. More often is in Second or third marriages where people have complicated family history and they may be trying to protect assets they may not want. I WANNA get into a second or third marriage. Because they're trying to protect their children's access to their assets and those those situations get much more. There was a time in recent American Eric in history and it wasn't all that long ago when there was a great deal of moralizing from politicians about the importance of marriage the institution of marriage and fashioning in government so that it promoted marriage and these low income people are talking about the exact opposite. They're talking about laws in rules. When it comes to benefits like Medicaid it s SL for poor people disabled people that mean the exact opposite? Well there There has been a long campaign by the federal government to try to promote marriage region. It's part of our welfare policy now to promote marriage On the on the theory that if people got married they wouldn't need help from the state marriage was sort of a system system for paying for that Labor which was not remunerated in the labor force. You know if no one's GonNa pay you to do housework and childcare The marriage was a way to use some of the man's income to pay for that Labor That system is breaking down. You know largely which is mostly good but we do find The one of the reasons that marriage disadvantage divorce disadvantages women more than men is because men still earn more than women when they do a separate The A woman is more likely to end up with lower income and also probably more likely to still end up with the children so there's still a gender inequality that runs throughout the marriage and divorce. Well let's talk about alimony. Jacqueline Newman. Lisa e mails to ask what is the formula for alimony for example the wife never graduated from college and stayed home for thirty two years and the husband earns three hundred thousand dollars so it varies very much from state to state and now that you can no longer deduct alimony. Um there's been a change in the tax laws that you can no longer deduct alimony from the pay or and it used to be income to pay. It is actually meet the gap even larger about how you're going to negotiate on spousal support alimony. Things like that so the formula is really very. I couldn't even begin to start it through complex warning. We'll take the rest of this show but There are formulas every every single state is different in the way that they handle it. But I can just tell you that it's becoming harder and harder to resolve because of the facts that the tax consequences interesting what you just said though alimony alimony used to be a write off for the pay or and income for the pay. Meaning you have to be income tax on it. All that is gone now. It's neither right off your income from a federal standpoint The states can handle it differently but it really has impacted as I said the negotiations. Because usually if you do have a situation like was just described so you have one person who's in zero tax bracket and then you have someone who's in a higher tax bracket that to be able to play that off from financial standpoint was really significant in our negotiations nations. And now that's all kinds of well. We got a message from one of our listeners. Who Call to talk about her amicable divorce? It went so smoothly in fact that there were no lawyers involved. This is Mitch and I'm from Ann Arbor. I got divorced about ten years ago. And we were. We're very good at communicating. What we needed and wanted out of the doors? So we didn't hire an attorney. I I did all of the paperwork. It was a lot of work to try to figure that all out and We got divorced Together and making it the best experience we could for kids. It's doable thing. We just need the resources to figure out how nope rather than going the traditional route and creating all kinds of tension and craziness with attorneys on both sides. Jacqueline Newman. This sounds wonderful. I think to the rest of us. I'm not sure that this. DIY approach sounds so advisable to you or am I wrong. Well you know I called. The kitchen table talks so I do have many clients that say you know what I can figure out some of this and usually in situations like that I say great if you too can sit down at the kitchen table and figure things out. I think that's fantastic. However you need to know what you're talking about so as we said a lot of times people come to January and they want to kind of just get the road map of what divorce looks like you know and again in my book I kind of talk a lot about like the real basics of what you should know and then if you are an educated position and I think you know great if you can sit in how that conversation? And there's not a huge power imbalance and you think you can really both be on the same page about trying to do everything you can to protect your family and to protect your children going forward. I think it's fantastic. I just don't always work may not work for. Everybody will barb emails this. How does a person find the right lawyer for them? I'm in a situation right now and and I have no idea besides asking google. I'm very private. I don't WANNA ask around. There has to be a better way. Yeah it's an issue. I mean I think it's one of the biggest questions. Russian people do ask me is how do I know who's my attorney. I'm especially if you are a private. I mean a lot of people do look on the Internet. You know you do need to be careful about that But you know if you can on if there are people that you could speak to. I think that that's always the best way because you want someone who's actually experienced working with his attorney but you know we get a lot of people that find us on the Internet and then you know and then do i. I would definitely recommend doing initial consultations because again you need to make sure you're comfortable with that person. Lives lands in addition to writing repeatedly about divorce in magazines and websites sites across America. I know you got a lot of friends. And I know they come to you What are some of the things that your friends of similar ages have said to you about their divorces and when they talk to you as the expert? Well I think something that you realize. Is You know no marriage is the same and nobody understands a relationship chip you know from the outside and even even people on the inside might not even understand the relationship and while every break is different uncomplicated. There's a couple of things that I think especially women need to always consider. Is You know what are their rights And how can they find and emotional support and to that person who You know was asking for. How do I find a lawyer? I'd say I get a therapist and then get a little longer because my therapist pointed me to a lawyer And that and that I think has made all the difference And finding an and finding a good support system again I think a lot of privacy Comes from shame and we don't need to feel that anymore. There's truly truly nothing to be prouder about than reclaiming your life and reclaiming your happiness and that should not be a process that shrouded in shame. Well is I want to make sure we get Donna in here before we go donna emails to say my parents quote celebrate their sixtieth anniversary. This year they spent their lives miserable. And it's cost asked me years of therapy in doubt when I wish they had divorced when I was in high school when they threaten to and I wish they would still get divorced today so much is said about the effect of divorce on children Brin but divorce has an effect on the happiness of people around them so many unhappy marriages that stay together. Don't need to One of my friends when I was in the throes of misery With my marriage and I was like no. I'm just going to stay. I'll just into guestroom and we'll make it work mark and she was like you don't have to play chicken with your life. Your Life is not a game of chicken. You don't have to see WHO's GonNa Flinch. I who's going to be miserable rebel. I you can make the choice to be happy and I think that again. That's something that is still really radical even in twenty twenty twenty and I hope it's one of the reasons I talk about it so openly and I hope more people do and that's a positive note in a good place to end before we do Professor Cohen Future Trends. We've talked about about the current trends in divorce. Where where's this going in America? It's very likely that the divorce rate is going to continue to fall at least for the next decade or so just if we look at the people who've gotten married carried in the last ten years they're showing more and more of the of the more resilient profile the higher education Later aged marriages. Divorce rates are almost definitely gonNA keep falling. Divorce rate's falling expected to fall even more. That's Professor Philip and Cohen Professor of sociology at the University of Maryland College Park. Thanks for being here thank you. Jacqueline Newman is the managing aging partner of the divorce. Law Firm Berkman Bacher Newman and shine author of the new rules of divorce. Twelve secrets to protecting your wealth. Your health and your happiness. Jacqueline Newman a a lot of practical advice and a lot of notes from listeners. So thank you very much for the lessons. Thank you for having me. We really appreciate. Liz Lenses a writer and a columnist in one heck aradio guest from the Cedar Rapids Gazette. Liz Great to have you thank you so much for having me This conversation was produced by station Brown and edited by Matthew Simonsen Minson to learn more about the team visit the website. The one eight dot org. This program comes to you from W. Amu part of American University in Washington it's distributed by NPR art until we meet again. I'm todd's like you so much for listening. This is one A. Uh.

Berkman Bacher Newman Professor Cohen NPR attorney Todd Willik professor of sociology partner New York federal government Professor Philip Jacqueline Liz Lens Washington America Attorney Uber Jacqueline Newman Ura University of marriage University of Maryland College
Jim Henson

Bedtime History: Inspirational Stories for Kids

08:49 min | 4 months ago

Jim Henson

"Welcome to bedtime history. Hello this Brek. A shoutout to our newest donors Michael From Jasper Illinois and Delaney and Colin from Oregon. If you'd like to donate bedtime history, go to bed time history stories, dot com, and Click on donate in the menu to donate via Patriae on also Sydney from Roanoke Virginia. Thanks for the Awesome Apple podcast review. One more thing I released the second episode about Cleo and Lance the secret agents of the Explorers Society. In this episode, they travel to ancient Egypt to help the Pharaoh find his stolen sector. You can find the audio narration at Bedtime History Stories Dot com a big to everyone who donated towards the first episode. This gave me the chance to create the second one. If you listened to the second episode, enjoy it any donation is appreciated and no donation is too small. Thanks again. Close Your eyes in time travel back to the days when television didn't exist how would you spend your screen time differently? Maybe, you know someone who's alive before televisions were invented. Have you ever asked them questions about what it was like or what they might have done instead of watching television. Now imagine you were growing up at that time. The television became available in your family purchased their own TV. You can watch TV in black and white news programs, sitcoms, and yes even cartoons. Today's episode is about a boy named Jim Henson whose life was changed when his family got their first TV. He saw those shows the actors on them and the stories they told and decided that he wanted to be on television himself someday. Jim Henson was born in September nineteen, thirty, six in Mississippi. His family love jokes and laughing Jim spent a lot of time with his grandparents who helped him create amazing art projects. He also loved to go to the theater and watch movies and especially loved Westerns and movies that took place in far off places. He and his friends would spend their playtime dressing up and acting out the movies they saw using homemade props and they're big imaginations. Jim also grew up listening to radio broadcasts shows and his favourite performer was Edgar Bergen Ventriloquist of entr. ill-equipped is someone who can talk without moving his lips or mouth. Jim saw this and thought it was amazing. Later his family moved in Maryland and they purchased their first. TV when Jim was just thirteen years old jim watched a show called Kuka friend and. which featured puppet performers he loved the way. The puppets appeared to be real creatures that people could laugh with share stories with and be friends with. The puppets were alive in a way and that was magical. Jim Dreamed about being on television himself. As soon as Jim turned sixteen, he started looking for a job in television with all the local stations. Sadly, they all said No. This was hard for Jim. He didn't give up. He later heard that one of the stations was looking for a puppeteer. So checked out some books on puppetry built some puppets and applied for the job. He got the job building puppets for a Saturday morning. Children's program called the morning show with hard work practice and determination he was accomplishing his goal. Jim Henson. Went to college at the University of Maryland College Park in college took a puppetry class and produced a puppet show called Salmon friends for W RC TV. The puppets in the show or early versions of what would later become the muppets including a prototype or version of kermit the. FROG. Jim worked on the show he invented new puppetry and filming methods that are still in use today such as allowing the puppeteer to work off camera by using the frame defined by the camera shot. At this time, most puppets were made from wood and we're not very expensive. Instead Jim used fabric covered foam rubber to give his puppets greater ability to express emotion. Instead of strings he is rods to manipulate the puppets also increase the range of expression of the puppets. While Jim was working on the salmon friends show he met and worked with Jane Neville another student at the university they would later begin dating eventually got married in Nineteen fifty-nine. The success of Salmon Friends led the Henson's puppets appearing on talk shows like the Steve Allen show the Jackpot program and the Ed Sullivan Show. These are similar to Jimmy Fallon and Jimmy. Kimmel, shows in our day. Henson's puppets also became famous when they were used in TV commercials such as the Wilkin Coffee Company commercial in Washington DC. In nineteen sixty, nine Jim was asked to join the team working on a new children's program called Sesame Street. On the show his muppets would be characters who lived in the neighborhood of Sesame Street interacted with the human characters. The show was meant to teach children. In count as well as show children, how to share, take and get along. One thing that kids loved was the variety of the muppets each character was unique and represented a different type of personality. There was big bird, the foot tall yellow bird who's innocent and curious like. Oscar the grouch, the monster that lives in the trash can and shows that it's okay to be grouchy sometimes or have a different opinion. then. There's elmo, the enthusiastic monster who loves to have fun and discover new things. Than Burden Ernie Unlikely Best Friends who are completely opposite in just about every way burt love's oatmeal and pigeons all Ernie loves taking baths with as rubber ducky and playing jokes on burt. Then there's count Von Count, the number obsessed vampire cookie monster. He'll do anything for his favorite food cookies. It was a huge success and the characters from the sesame street are loved by many people who grew up with them. If you haven't seen sesame street, ask your parents because I'll bet they have. Jim? Henson. Designed the puppets but also move them around and perform them these puppets included Ralph the dog Ernie Dorf, the Swedish Chef Guy Smiley Dr Teeth Captain Vegetable. Many more. To reach more audiences and bring his stories and characters to all kinds of people, kids, and adults. Jim Henson, created more muppets and new shows for them to. Be Stars. In. The muppet show is a variety show consisting of many kinds of muppets and a weekly guest star working together to put on a show for television audience. With colorful characters like Miss Piggy. Fosse, the bear animal guns, Oh, scooter and Kermit the frog and superstar guest hosts like Julie Andrews Elton John, Vincent Price, and Steve Martin. There is something on the muppet show for everyone. Although much of the show is chaos it showed people everywhere that inspite of chaos and our differences. The most important thing is to focus on being together and having fun. The muppets went on to star in feature films like the muppet movie, the Great Muppet Caper and the Muppets take Manhattan Jim also created the Henson Foundation to teach puppetry and improve the art design puppetry in the United. States. He. Combined puppetry in animatrix puppet like robots. He was even involved in the creation of one of the most famous puppets of all time iota from the star wars movies. Over the years Jim. Never lost sight of his vision of sharing his characters and stories with as many people as possible even shared his work with his five. All of them began working with muppets at an early age were able to spend time with their father in this way. When asked about his dream Jim Henson said, it's about singing and dancing and making people. Happy. That's the kind of dream that gets better. The more people you share it with. Jim started out with the dream of being on television and throughout his life he was able to reach people through TV and other ways. He's an example of never giving up on the dream and of helping people to come together and laugh and share the things they love and enjoy in order to learn and have fun fun together. Thanks for listening to bedtime history and be sure to tune in next week.

Jim Henson Salmon Friends Egypt Patriae Henson Foundation Maryland Cleo Michael Roanoke Virginia Explorers Society Sydney Jasper Illinois University of Maryland College Mississippi Oregon Jane Neville Von Count Delaney Edgar Bergen Steve Allen
How To Save For Your Kid's College Education

How To Pay For College

27:43 min | 1 year ago

How To Save For Your Kid's College Education

"If you ever want to give yourself anxiety I mean serious. Anxiety try one of these online calculators. For how much money you need to be saving for college. I've I've done some of the online calculators to tell me how much I should be saving per month at this point for our daughter. They were suggesting that we save like a thousand dollars and a hit not doable. That's a listener Valerie. Finna Meyer. And she's right. I mean saving money for your Kids College for many of us that it can seem like an impossible possible task. I mean the sticker price for a four year private schools like two hundred thousand dollars per kid. It's like how is this even remotely possible and if you start late it's even harder. Take it for me. But don't panic back away from the ledge saving for college is not easy butts. You can probably save a lot more than you think especially once you decide. Look this is on. We are going to do this. And you know parts of it might even even be kind of fun. You can get creative albion as I use it as a hammer for my kids like you. Don't pick up that shooting no college fund for you EH. They were fighting with each other. I'm going to give your brother Your College Fund this is your NPR Life Kit for paying for college the episode how to save money advance. Your kids don't have too much student. Loan debt I'm Chris Arnold I cover personal finance consumer protection. And we're going to give you seven important Jordan things that you need to know to start squirreling away and investing money in a smart way. So we're going to get into five twenty nine plans the best savings strategies and we we even have to pay anything close to that sticker price. Anyway we'RE GONNA learn how to do this right and I promise you that your kids are going to love you for it right after this. Okay so the first thing we're going to do is blow up a myth because blowing up Mrs Kinda Fun and this method gets in the way of a lot. The people saving money for college and I have to admit that I fell victim to this too when my kids were little. There's this idea that if you save a pile of money for your Kids College College the college is GonNa Pay Great. I mean this person can pay a lot for college and you don't need any financial aid so I figured I'll be much much better off. Probably right if if I put all my savings into by retirement account colleges. Don't look at that and then I'll get a lot more financial aid because I don't have any the money saved up and we'll take out student loans or something on the back end markets Pam. Later Gray plan no no no. There's you're going. Oh your heart's on her. The that's Michelle Single Teri. She's a personal finance author and columnist for The Washington Post. Now my parents do think that like the more I say asking to be the less that my kids going to get for financial aid. But guess what they're going to look at your income. This is the thing that you need to understand. When it comes to getting financial aid aide your income counts against you like twenty times more powerfully than any money you saved up for your kids college and this is our first takeaway tip number one? God Save as much as you can for college. And that's because it's not GonNa hurt you very much at all when it comes time to get financial aid. So here's how this works. Schools want you to save money right. I mean the system works because people save money that they can pay for their kids to go to school and that means that they. I don't WANNA punish you for saving by giving you know financial aid. So when they calculate how much aid you're eligible for it's like they put on magic glasses. It's okay and they look at you and they say how much money these parents make. And how much can they actually afford to pay. And your income like glows bright orange with these glasses. It's like blanking and they're like okay. Well if you make two hundred thousand dollars a year you're going to be paying for college but the money that you saved. The magic glasses can barely even see that money. It's it's mostly hidden your college savings. Just doesn't get considered that much. So yeah that savings is not going. The difference between you know huge need base package for your child absolutely right to get some actual numbers on this. We talked to Sandy A and E bow. She's an economist with the Urban Institute and she spent her entire professional life studying this higher ed finance stuff. So if you saved a thousand on dollars you're expected contribution would go up by fifty six dollars so thinking that you would be better off if you just didn't have that thousand dollars doesn't make any sense at all. It's a lot better to have the thousand dollars than it is to have the fifty six dollars that the financial aid system would say a you could get or if you save a twenty thousand dollars you're expected contribution. She says might go up by about eleven hundred bucks. You'd be so much better off than having. Ah come up from nowhere with the twenty thousand dollars and I think that once people hundred sentence like I get it okay. You're so much better off. Having saved the money much better off having saved the money also says depending on the school you might not get all of the financial aid that you're technically eligible for any way. They just don't have the money. aww everybody's needs so so it is true that saving has a tiny impact on the amount you're expected to pay but it has has a very small impact and might not even have an effect on how much granted you end up with all right so we want to save the money. But what's the best way to do that. Sandy recommends using what's called a five twenty nine plan. Will you put money into an investment account specially made to to save for College. The five twenty nine college savings accounts are good idea. The advantage of these plans is that they are tax. Free that your money grows tax straight and you withdraw tax free to pay for college. That is really powerful right because if you start early the money you put in the account could easily double. By the time you're goes goes to college and you get that entire gain. You have to pay any taxes on that that just goes right to pay for college and another thing. That's really cool about these. Five twenty nine is they're set up up in a really simple way a lot of them where you just say okay. My kid is two years old or ten years older. Whatever it is? And then you're put into the right account. Where where everything's adjusted and calibrated for the number of years? You have left till your kid goes to college now. You probably know that you need to save right but balancing saving for college with other things that you need to save for your retirement or paying back your own student loans. That can be tricky. And we I heard from a lot of you who do struggle with trying to figure out. Okay what what's the right way to do this. So I am Valerie. I live in Chelmsford Massachusetts and and I work as a physicist at MIT so Valerie works and academia. She's a researcher. Her husband works in public health. They are highly educated but they don't don't make massive amounts of money in meanwhile they're paying two thousand dollars a month on their own student loans that they check out to get those advanced degrees and it's habit that Boston is this incredibly probably expensive place to live and so saving for college and retirement both has been really hard. I'M GONNA ten year. Old Daughter just turns ten tomorrow and seven year. Old Son son so I actually was trying to save for college and then got a lot of advice from A friend financial advisor and some others that I should be be focusing more on my retirement because you can always borrow for college. You can't borrow for retirement and so we switched our focus over to just making sure we got the Best Bang for our buck with the employer matching now this is our next takeaway tip number two. You do want to prioritize saving for your own retirement ahead of saving for your Kids College. That's true a lot of financial advisers. Say this you need to have money to live on when you retire right but Michelle says people still make a really big mistake here. What's the right smartest best way to try to balance all this so listen to to what someone told her? And I it just drives me mad when financial advisers. Tell people will you. Can you can't borrow for retirement but you can ball for college coach and this and the result was instead of saying okay. I'm going to try to do both stay a ban in one. So that's why you got to stop. Stop saying that and people stop listening to that. That is bad advice. No it's it's true on its surface but psychology of. Why are we here on our money? We can't kind of process these two things that we go okay. We're GONNA just do one but look at them so now they're in dead and now they can't say for their kids in so what I tell. Parents is yeah. It's tough to do both but it's not an either or situation you have to try to do both so you would do at least put in enough to get your company match and you also say as much as you can for your kids college front. It's not either or both are necessary. Sarah and that brings us to our next takeaway tip number three. Don't get overwhelmed and defeated. If it seems impossible to say the full cost of your kid's college saving something is a lot better than saving nothing and to find some motivation here. Because we're GONNA need motivation to go with me. We're GONNA take goat from an ancient Chinese philosopher and says the giant pine tree grows from a tiny sprout. The journey of a thousand miles starts from beneath. I need your feet and is it Kinda like that. It's like well okay. Look you think Oh. I can't possibly save enough. Why bother throw up your hands but you start with a little bit? You start just making taking the first automatic payment and and it will grow. I mean is it Kinda like that. It is Kinda like that you know. We've talked about this all the time. The the financial challenges orange who have starts with not how much money you have. But it's a mental thing. Now maybe you can save enough that they don't have to borrow for books or they don't have to borrow offer this. Michelle says maybe starting with something small. You'll end up with a lot more money than you thought you'd be able to save the key here the the way you get this tree to grow out of the ground talking to Michelle there. I said you make your first automatic payment and this this is their next takeaway tip number four to be successful at saving for college or retirement or anything else. You have to make it automatic as in every single paycheck when it hits. It's your checking account. You were auto transferring a set amount of money into your college savings and investing account. We talk about why this is so powerful in our life get episode called. We'll get started saving but basically behavioral economists will tell you that look I mean us humans. We're just not wired for saving for the future unless we do it this way so my husband has set it up so that once a month but a certain day money comes right. Out of our paychecks goes right to the college front and that I call a set it and forget it. It is the best way to save for Your College Front for retirement. Anything that you're trying to save for because we're human we aude's get busy and then the other thing is that life happens and then you start to cheat yourself like this month. Maybe you over you blew past. You're eating out budget so instead of putting money into couch a savings account you've gotta logic credit card building. You expect it so you take that money to pay down the college credit card and then there goes the college fund for that month but if you do it automatic it's coming out you forget it and the U. adjuster spending to what's left so the research shows that when we make payments auto matic. Then we're more likely to be successful. That's Philip Gibson. He's an associate professor at winthrop university where he teaches personal finance classes. He also works works as a financial adviser and helps people save for college and set up their five twenty nine plants and pick the right one he also says making things automatic. That's just super were important because it makes saving a lot easier and after time you might not even notice that the payments were going out of the account because you have no become accustomed to to a particular budget or you're spending what you have. So you're not going to miss that money as much and Philip says a few more things. You need to know to do this right. He he says the thing about five twenty nine plans is that each state has its own way of setting up. These plans the hair different financial firms to manage them. And you can choose any the state's plan that you want and it's definitely worth shopping around. It doesn't take long. It's easy and it's worth it because some of these plans charge much higher fees than than others. So it's important that we understand how fees impact or returns. Philip says think about it this way saving investing is like taking a snowball and then rolling it down a hill. That's covered in snow. So if you start early and the ball starts rolling then over time it's going to get bigger and bigger because you're Adding money to that account and receive in return on your investment but if the fees are high in the account then or snowball isn't going to grow as big and as as fast as we would like it to be but now here's the tricky thing and the next big takeaway tip number five even fees. That sound sounds small like one or two percents. Those are not small. There's a really big fees and you want to pay the lowest fees possible so Philip says what happens is is this when we hear a one or two percent fee our brains kind of anchor that to the wrong number we owe one or two percent out of a hundred that sounds pretty small but that is the wrong way to think about it. Yes so if you're five twenty nine planners invested and it's invested somewhat conservatively. And you're less you get an four percent cent return and there's a one percent fee then. That's roughly twenty five percent off that return that is gone to the fine that you invested invested in. Okay so let's go ahead around this. There's a lot of numbers but one percents is a full quarter twenty five percent of your investment return right and it's that investment return year after year that piles up piles up and that is why that one percent fees not small. It's a big rice. This is going to do is really going to slow down around the amount of growth that you're getting in the portfolio and over time you end up with a much smaller snowball if you're giving twenty or twenty five percent of your investment return away I again and again year after year by paying fees. That are too high. It's really worth shopping around so that you can find a plan that is going to give view very low fees. Philip says one other thing you want to consider is that some states will give you extra incentives. If you invest in your state's plan you make an a tax break or some other the park and there's a very easy way to comparison shop all these different things out. There's a website saving for college dot Com. It's run by an author author WHO's also like the super expert on five twenty nine plants and it's a really well respected resource saving for college dot Com. Where you can compare all the five twenty nine plans out there? What the fees they charge everything about them so definitely check that out okay? This next thing is a lot more fun than thinking about fees. I promise because what you're gonNA find out when you set up a five twenty nine plan you start saving. You'd be surprised by how much friends and especially family members. Actually WANNA to help you out with this. We heard from one listener. Who did something very cool? He set up the planet before his child is even born and then for the baby shower. The couple told everybody nobody they said look. We don't need onesies. We have a high chair please. Just don't buy a lot of plastic stuff where we really really would appreciate is if you could just put anything Tan Hand Twenty Fifty Bucks whatever you can do into our five twenty nine account to help pay for our kids college and I was telling Michelle about this. They got well over a thousand dollars before the kids even born. I love it and it's like oh I mean if you start explaining that way it's like honey. Let's do this five twenty nine thing thing I wish I was. I thought of that. I love that idea when you're having a shower or the kid's birthday party people will always asked whether the kidney 'cause I do do that when I'm invited when my kids were little ready to call the parent it's like what does the kidney and then when you are asked that question you go listen. Kid really doesn't eat anything. But if your heart is inclined inclined and you were going to spend any money. Here's there are twenty nine plan and most of the five hundred twenty nine plants. I know Maryland does not only has a great page that you could set up with a picture of your kid it and then you can even send them a link and the link tanks some to a page and it makes it so easy to contribute like in less than five minutes you can contribute so you can make it easy for people to help you. Well the college money for your children and that's our next tip number six setting up a five twenty nine plan creates an easy way for friends and family to help kick in some money to help you save for college and it doesn't have to be a baby shower of course if you're starting later than ad could do it for the holidays or the next birthday party but the sooner you do it the sooner that college snowball starts rolling down the hill. And maybe even with a little help from your friends friends chipping eh birthday parties and stuff. It's fine. It's going to help a bit but most of us are going to have to dig pretty deep to save enough money for our kids college and Michelle who we've been talking to. She is a success story here. Michelle talks the talk but she definitely also walked the walk and which she did what I could was born. She started by putting children fifty dollars a month into a five twenty nine plan and then as she and her husband's incomes grew they started having more kids for each each kid was to fifty two hundred and fifty dollars a month. That's what it took times three which is still a lot of money for a lot of families. But that's it was affordable for us for twenty some years and that's all we did we. We set it up automatically so every single month no matter what money came out of our bank account went right into the state. Five five twenty nine plan now. Michelle says this was affordable for her. But this was not easy Michelle. Her husband. Do not come from any kind of money. And they had to watch their spending ending and their budget really closely and even to the point where the kids want a new shoes at their friends had nice shoes or a video game where they wanted to get to eat. More monkeys asked all I he is. Charlie Brown's teacher y tune it out. What can I have it essay note to whereas college for my friends heavy? Mommy please Mommy Mommy please. I said two two ways for your college Michelle's kids did not always like this but Michelle decided that she did not want her children to have to deal with student loans and with that a two hundred and fifty dollars a month you know that seed planted in the ground growing growing growing invested over time. She saved up enough money to send all three of her kids kids to state schools. But you know the best laid plans and all that Michelle's oldest daughter Olivia turns out really wanted to go out of state to the University of North Carolina. Beautiful School beautiful campus. Just loved it. She painted her room in the colors and she went to visit and it was just. It's like out of the movies and she was like a half to go here. Just GonNa die if I know go and then we looked at the cost. I said well you just going to have to die. Because you're you're not wanted to school. You know I mean you. We didn't have an UNC money. We had University of Maryland College Park Bunny. And that's what I child went and did she like it. Initially really not sure didn't and I locked my bedroom door because I didn't want her to smother me in my sleep. But she went and she had a great college experience she and she has now finished her masters degree program in social work so that's six years of college education and no debt for her or US us now. Michelle teaches a personal finance class at our church for couples and she was telling us that the people there and they weren't really buying saying that Michelle's daughter was okay with this whole thing. I mean. She painted her room. The colors of the school. You know I mean. This must've really sucked name like we don't believe your kids hate you. You know. They're all the stuff that you did and they knew made them go to a state school. So Michelle do this thing. She asked her daughter. Olivia come in and talk to the class and we actually got a video of this and this was right. Olivia was graduating from college and she started talking about how her friends were really stressed out about paying back these student loans that they taken taken out and my even my friend that I have that approval even say that just like sitting in on both conversations of like six months before you're dot com. I just don't have those got really emotional about this. Which Michelle didn't really expats bats? I didn't I didn't need issues like I'm graduating without debt. When I think about that like now I can that because I would be spending for my student loans I can put my and then just generational so what you have done for me is so amazing? I just really thank you both for that and people start flag so it's hard to hear but Olivia says my eight year old self. Thanks for that now. You've got me crying. Kids never stayed at t you now. Of course not everybody's GONNA be able to send their kids to college totally debt free or make the kind of decisions that Michelle did for her kids and there is no one right way to do this but one takeaway here. Is that if you do save money. You're really giving your whole family a gift. I mean if your kids have to borrow less. They're going to really appreciate that. And you're doing yourself a favor to because you won't be scrambling around your kids. I start school like how am I even. We're going to make this tuition bill and sandy bound says. Look even if you can't save all of the money most people can't right I mean so don't feel bad about that there. I used to be a a a movement to get people to think that you were going to save one third pay one third while the student was in college and borrow one third and that's not an unreasonable. Unreasonable way to think about it. If you can save any part of it that does a couple of things one it gives you the confidence and gives your child the confidence that there is money the day that you are dedicated to this that it's a priority and that you'll be able to pay for it also says to get a handle on a rough estimate even about how much she'll need to save she also says you can go to that website saving for college dot Com. It's got really good calculators. And you might find that you're likely to qualify for a substantial amount of it. That doesn't doesn't mean. Don't save money to save money. But for example full-time students at private colleges receive an average of more than twenty thousand thousand dollars a year in grant aid so that is a lot of money. There's a lot of granted out there so that might be encouraging and you start looking at that you know. Save third now pay thirty college and all. This can start to seem a lot more doable than you might have thought and it can also be scary. I mean when I did this actually for my kids. I plugged my numbers and I'm expecting to see like Oh. Yeah we'll get some greeted. It doesn't look like I'm going to get much and I did kind of freak out. But what within two weeks. I totally overhauled our approach with our five twenty nine savings plan with automatic payments now going in every month with a lot more money unlike really stretching and so sometimes steering reality in the face can be like a shock but it can also be a good motivator okay so we covered a lot of ground here so we can remember the most important stuff here come the takeaways tip number one. Sorry Myth Buster. Save as much as you can for college. That's because it's not going to hurt you very much at all when it comes to getting financial aid. If you've saved up a nice pile of money you will not not lose out much in financial aid. If at all you will be better off you will have an easier time paying for college if you have saved number two. You do want to prioritize I saving for your own retirement ahead of seven for your kids college but you still want to save for both. It's not an either or situation you gotTa do both number three. A giant tree grows may tiny sprout. So don't give up dr up your hands you can do this. Don't be discouraged orig- safe which you can as often as you can even as little as you can number four to be successful at this savings thing you have to make it automatic and you don't even realize it. The money's gone all right number five even fees that sound small like one or two percent. Oh that's so small. I know what you want to pay. The lowest fees possible is really worth shopping around so that you can find plan that is going to give you. The lowest is possible fees finally number six party time setting up a five twenty nine plan creates an easy way for friends and family to help kick in some money to help if you save for College for more. 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Michelle Single Teri Kids College College Kids College Sandy Chris Arnold NPR Philip Gibson Valerie University of Maryland College Olivia Finna Meyer Jordan Urban Institute Maryland Boston researcher
Generation Zero

Entre Dos Podcast

36:14 min | Last month

Generation Zero

"Indicates a podcast about waiting bombing length. Monica and paolo. Welcome to enter those a podcast about raising bilingual children. Identity in place can sometimes be abstract notions. They can define who we are in every way while also remaining elusive in the process of integrating two or more cultures. We are coming to terms with the things that were okay with the things were not okay with and the things that are inevitable in this episode. We explore the intricacies of this experience with author. Sabrina can relieve. Sabrina is a first generation. Indian american of sikh descent. She's a fulltime social science researcher and holds them. Ma in sociology from the university of maryland. Baltimore county and a ba in sociology. From the university of maryland college park. She is currently completing her doctorate at the university of baltimore. We talk with sobriety about her book generation zero which tackles her family's immigration story in america. One thing that we loved about the book is that it is written from the point of view of the child takes us through her struggles while also keeping her own parents experience in perspective. It's a fascinating dense. That many of us can relate to our first question to re was about her bilingual upbringing. Here's what she said languages so important and there's so many nuances with language like the way it's actually spoken Ethics on different words. That it can teach you a lot about a culture That be In my perspective in job or the american culture. I know that. I didn't really realize that i was speaking two different languages until i went to school. You know what. I mean so. It's kind of like my parents. Were initially decided that they're just gonna teach us big job. The because where. Am i going to go to london jumpy. There are like really schools out there for that. I guess they could go to like You know like to see our nicotine to me but even if you think about like one language there's different dialogue that language and depending on what town you're Or what kind of geographical location. That language is that The way you speak it his different. So it's kind of like a panther like what's going to speak to you the way it's been talked to us and you're going to learn and i remember that conversation came up like after actually went to school. I know like you learned a lot of stuff through the television. You know being like an immigrant family even learning english like my mom has a master's in english but her english is very different than english here. So it's like. She never spoke to us in english but she told us i get it on that later in wash. Tv because they're teaching how to speak accent. How it's supposed to be and we didn't really talk too much of it. Like i know when i talked to my mom and my dad that i was talking i didn't even realize it and when i was talking to my brother i always talked to him in english but when i went to school you know it was interesting because the first time i realized that not only do i. Am i speaking in different in that actual language but also is going to need to speak differently guys. Sometimes i don't actually know the english language correctly. It's whatever the slang or whatever learn through the television. It's like you know you can say how's your day or you can say what's up so you know for me. I was like what's up like what are you talking about how you properly talk english. So it's like you're like wait so there's different ways to learn english but I just remember you know for me. Like i think one of the greatest gift giving me is just like not teaching english because i was able to really like learn job at the grassroots level. And it's something that i carry on until this day so when i talked to my whole family i tried to make it a conscious effort to talk and been jumpy but like our job is kind of mixed so it's kind of like job in english. You know like one. Full sentence in banja. These very hard to say now to me because i'm so bilingual in that But it's like if. I talked to my grandma and stuff like that. I make conscious efforts talking. And i wouldn't know how there was my parents but as also noticed that you know like i mentioned about elementary school expand a little bit. It was like the first time where i felt different as well where when i interact with people that are like you know speak punjabi. I realize there's some differences in our language. But it's like okay. It's not really like well known. But when i talk about english when i when i went to school my english is this off it was. It wasn't speaking properly. I mean i knew how to read english a little bit but not really so obviously each class was and it kind of shocked me like. Hey all these other kids. Because i am. I living in queens so you know melting pot. Everyone else looks like like you. So i look around and i'm like why like a lot the kids would i mean different like english normal english classes. But i'm an east solid doesn't make any sense to me. So i kind of felt a little off and i felt like there's something wrong with me in that regard but just like the whole understanding of the language concept has been really interesting because when i talk in english you know two people that speak english and the native language and the first language i talk as properly as i can but if i talk to people who speak punjabi or any other ethnicities that you know. There's some kind of accident involved in talking english especially in the somehow the way they're talking to people in jeopardy. I adopted their accent. So it's like when i talk in english. It's not really english. It has max onto it. So i just find that really fast because that's not something that was talked to me but something i've picked up and i still carry on till this day. Is that what you were referring to in the book when you talked about having to accents growing up like you had to your home accent in your school accent yeah. That's exactly what i'm talking about. It's just like i have my home accent and school accent so it's kind of like immigration like i'm just talking about so it's kind of like you know when i went home. I don't want anything to be locked in communication and sometimes when you are speaking in a different language speaking so properly in one language like there's things that are just lost in communication and if you think about this english general and how it's communicated and how review to like other immigrant populations and i'll just talk about the south asian experience sometimes. It's hard even understanding because accents are so they're friends you might feel a little bit different You know. I know in mainstream media the indian accent is you know comical. You know so. I just was really sensitive. You're not young age that out. I talked to somebody in the way that they understand me including the accent so it's Not meaning that. I'm better than you are worse than you. you know. just wanna make sure that you understand that. We're we're at the same level. So when i would come home i was so afraid to miscommunicate something. 'cause if you really can in if you have an accent and different things like i'd say respectfully how was your day instead of like getting a different way we're might be slang and i might pass are going to be like. Why are you talking to us. So it's kind of like. I just adopted to like whatever accent they had in order to make sure that they understood me and i met them at the bridge that they were having them. Climb to the bridge dot. I was already going. I mean i didn't even realize i was getting different accent. Thing until like one of my. My boyfriend told me at the time. Like why do you speak so differently on the phone to your mom in english but when you're talking to me speaking very differently what is happening. And he's also like indian. So like you know i made a guy that actually speaks a different language so we don't actually talking jobe He's which has a lot of different languages. It's very complicated but So we talk in english all the time and i remember when talking about that other parents thing he identified like yes. There's certain things that actually do that with my parents because it's like i don't want to lost in translation but it's just like kind of like an autopilot thing is just like you just wanna even though no one told me to. Even when my mom was sometimes talk during the different way she would say. You don't have to talk to that way. You could talk to you the way you talk to everybody else. But i'm like no. I wanna make sure you understand. She's like i really do understand. But also you don't have to talk to you that way. I have been thinking about that a lot recently and then just something that i still can't turn off like especially with like the older generation whether it'd be my grandparents and older obstacles. I speak and things that i speak to infringe job I still do that. And i can't help myself but i'm so aware about it that i try to but it's it's just what i know and One of the things. That really stood out to both paul. And we were actually talking about this before you don't din because we related to it so much In the chapter the follow a gut. Feeling when you're talking about your family's moved to baltimore right and we thought the reasons behind him were really interesting because it was. Your parents were realizing that you might be becoming you and your brother will be coming to american but at the same time they were moving you to. I would say even more american you if you think about the cannon right and then in and on top of that you know this is something that every parent raising bilingual bicultural child experiences you that dan's of like you know i want you to be this but but not too much because i still want to identify with my culture and an it's and even as a parent you don't really understand the parameters of that. It's not clear yet. You have the sort of crisis you know that's happening in. Your child is disrespecting. Matted you know you have to learn how to manage it. But i feel like that was so interesting and i would love for you to talk to us a little bit about about that. I think like following a gut feeling probably like one of my favorite chapters because it just talks about the resiliency of immigrant parents and this how they're so brave in so many different aspects of their lives. But i just i can't fathom just picking up everything that i know and just moving to florida tomorrow. Why would i do that. That makes no sense to me. But you know it's really quick to identify and You know adapt something if they if it just doesn't feel right and i feel like it's exactly what you said it just like becoming to american so there's like this delicate balance. I feel like especially with immigrant. Parents people that come from us by cultural language and identities stop. There just wants you to be as americans you wanna be but also you know there's this heritage about you know we are indian So we wanna make sure that you keep some of the culture with you but you know making sure that you understand like there's some american values that don't really resonate well with our culture like for example. The south asian country or south asian culture. It's all about the collected so it's like the family The niko family's really important extended families porn. If i have something that i wanna voice as an individual. It's kind of like you need to be silent because you know the duty of the family and like the call show. Obligation to your family is way more important than anything that you could do. But if you see from the american limbs it's script. It's like all about the i although what you want and family comes afterwards. So it's you know i think that's the biggest thing that was making my parents a little uneasy so it's like become because there immigrant parents and there seeing the to to american influence that there were really concerned about just like eradicating the family influence. And how important family can be for you They're like we. We gotta get outta here. Because a lot of indian people were like their kids were growing out. there were very independent. And there's something wrong with being independent but They're also oxidizing or like just making sure their parents their you know their struggles and how they were re with them. Begging they any sense anymore so it's kind of like because there were competing against being american or being to indian like a lot of immigrant children and like first generation children they just like automatically calls one door So my parents were like we're just gonna get up. We're gonna move out of queens even though like the most diverse place. I've ever been in my life and we moved to baltimore. monterey county which is not baltimore city so it was a little safe but Talking about just like how everyone around me was. They didn't look like me. It was very isolating if anything it was really american and understanding how that experience was like has been something that i've struggled with a lot but it's just like it's it's it goes back to the one thing and one thing only it's like kinda going back to like the the like languages spoken as well but it's like what aspects of their culture are you going to like infused into your identity. How you speak it. How you communicate with your culture what aspects or you can check and sometimes The biggest thing my dad told me was that he was just afraid that you wouldn't think for ourselves like you know. Depending on the peer to peer group were in whatever they were doing you would just do and he just wanted to remove i so we could independently think like hey what aspects of the south asian culture do be like and what i what aspects with the way coach do like And then we keep you know kind of like intertwine matt. I understand it from a perspective that makes it both unique to us as individuals of an immigrant family but also were able to pick the best things from both cultures and one thing that sort of connects to that. A little bit is When you talked about the smart indian stereotype which stereotypes in general for immigrants. And you know people being raising into cultures they can create a real combative relationship right with both cultures in creates a bit of like a elegant Crisis for a person because it's you don't fit in anywhere really according to those stereotypes and as a when you're younger you assume you don't have that confidence to push back necessarily all the time and we know we see that a log with our latino community you know we. We have some of our listeners. That don't speak spanish because they grew up in an environment where it just wasn't possible. You know the school school nobel lingual schools and their parents wanted them to assimilate right and they feel like the latin community rejects that and then the american community expects them to speak spanish. Because they're hispanic if this whole sort of mess right and you can't be right no matter what you do and you. Can you talk a little bit about that sort of experience. Hell that was for you. It's such a fascinating experience. Because i feel like regardless of whatever stereotype impacts you That's gonna affect you in any way. Look the way that she mentioned. And the for us for south asians. I think you know. I'm not trying to speak for all south asian but In particular indians You know there's this indian concept It's a stereotype because you know unfortunately for what recent where considered the model minority And it was like a myth around it and for a lot of a good portion of the immigration history and centuries like we've been using it to our advantage and i think until recently have had a community realize like is not okay and there's you speak up about it and that stereotype is as detrimental to the community and furthermore to everyone else in the immigrant experiences because talk about you know you're only able to highlight the positive aspects of it but you don't you also Erotic experiences of people who don't fit that stereotype and a lot of people. Don't get that stereotype. So if you think about the smart indian concept is just like everyone a doctor. Every month to lure. Everyone has their crock together. they come from privilege. And you know it's easier for them to go up in their social status system in america because they come from money they have privilege and it's easier for them to just transferable skills essentially but If you know anything about the stereotype it's always falls. And there's so many people in this community as well as in a community type families. Maybe we'll call collar backgrounds. They might not have enough money to come over here. They might be coming over here illegally. It really depends but it's just like thinking about back from you. Know the lens of the concept is here. You are in a country where the box of like what it needs to be needing just one bucks theater smart. You're not and in. The american lens is like hey you must be a smart until you already don't need as much help. You probably don't need help school as much. Your parents are gonna help you out. You know your pint or financial aid. Applying for scholarships kind of understood like. Don't you already have money like what's happening to all all those aspects. That are so complicated. So the the biggest thing that i think anyone that like identity like in that identity learn like silence is like to be silent because you don't stereotype can You can can really impact you as going up individual And i think the biggest thing i it's it's such a crisis because you don't really realize it until you kinda choose. What kind of identities do you want to uphold for. Like i know later on my life. I was like you know what i want to built. Anything and i want to be both american but i wanna choose aspects of my indian identity and shoes aspects of my identity but that comes later in life when you're living them. It's kind of hard. So it's like i the best way i like described this like experience the doors so it's like i opened up my indian door and my experiences are filtered through because i'm a girl I'm not that smart indian When someone asks me something okay where you from. Where's your family's from other south asian and other indians. I'm like oh well there's something job and they're like well. What is your parents. Do there must be lawyers or something right. I'm like no typical job. There's you know a lot of people come from farming background. So that's not really the case. And they just don't really understand kind of indian that you are so then i'm like okay. Well i don't understand depending on talking to only other people understand quote that door and they almost like you know or race anything about me that job and just try to be indian. I mean 'cause it's different to that when open the american door. i'm like yeah you know. I mean i have all these privileges and stuff right and i realize that when i opened it that it's such a disadvantage that i actually don't have any of those things and the only thing that resonates with you the most of that other will call are working families and their struggles and how they uphold themselves from the bootstrap is the only thing that makes me american. So it's like this constant like opening and closing of both doors and like i don't fit into anything and then like creating the third or for myself like this is where actually fit in now. I think that's such a common Well it's it's a common experience for immigrants of any background Gets in fact when we were starting this podcast we were gonna call it something like neither from here or there because the there is that Kind of not fitting in anywhere in ending up. Suppose you have to create your own your own Door like you said like that. I grew to learn about later in life. Is that customers so much. Friction between those two really distinct separate doors bat and just kind of like you know left alone like i didn't want wanna be to indian. I wanna be to job. Because i just felt like that wasn't acceptable and i couldn't be too many can either so it wasn't too much of anything so never myself so i don't know what i was. That's it's difficult. And and one thing that i it. The book Throughout the book you are you demonstrate. A lot of very deep empathy and respect for your parents And i think that's beautiful. I think it's so so important and it feels like you know you really. You really have sort of understood your experience and your research so you. This is the kind of thing right that you you. You really thinking deeply about these things. But it's it's it's a great perspective right because some people with an experience like the one that you have might have some sort of conflict with their parents. And maybe you do. But i feel like at the end of the day you debt you understand and you have empathy for what they went through which is essential right because at one point your parents become people. Their parents People side of you. That make you know they're human and one of the things that i wanted to Sort of ascot. Did you always feel that empathy. And it's important because when you're raising by Bicultural children like we are sometimes. We wonder if god's my kid gonna resent us. You know me good candidate forcing big things. My forcing it. What do i do. Because you're thinking about that as a parent to and and later in the book your dad the conversation you have with your dad about your. Your marriage is fascinating. Because he understood it all. He knew what he was doing. He understood that but he was also living in his own personal crisis raising children in america. So did you ever have moments maybe new teenage years where you were sort of like. I'm done all the time. I was like a big. I'm done on my forehead. Don't talk to me. I'm the black sheep. You know my experiences. Have you know it's it's been challenging. I'll be very honest. Very vulnerable very challenging. I think the first thing. The first thing that i had to do is understand where i'm hurting. Why and what is are these conversations. That i'm really trying to avoid because at the end of the day You know being an immigrant family. There's a lot of generational trauma that your parents are experiencing that they're passing onto you inadvertently. They are not even aware and there is a fiction that you feel learning to cultures and they're also learning to like they're also as american as me because they're in america with me. When i go back to india i can see how american they are but how much they're rejecting it but having the and like kindness. I has to come from within. I feel like for me like for a lot of my life. I was just kinda like rejecting everything. Like if there's something that they would they would say about things i was able to do. I would just be like well. You don't know anything so whatever. Talk to you about this. But general those experiences and as i started learning more in school and becoming researcher and i started to become more of an observer and becoming they observant around emotions that i feel and they that they feel and how they communicate in their language. So sometimes the communicating to me. They're saying things that. I might find it offensive to be quite frank but have to understand that if i put in a few runs like the cultural lens like where. They came from their experiences. That is when i put these filters together. Then what. They're really trying to tell me that they actually love me. But they're they don't know how to communicate effectively to me. And i think the first thing i realize is that our communication wasn't good It was speaking in two different languages even though we were speaking the same language. And it's because of those cultural influences and you know if it's it's avoiding like the thing that i feel like as immigrant children children That are coming from different cultures and stuff. They know it's just there's an. There's a conversation you're avoiding with their parents. It's just my name might be one might be several years of your life but you just want to ask them a question like i didn't do that. Why didn't you just hear me out. I was trying to be independent. I was trying to show you that. I got this but i just didn't feel comfortable and i thought what that for a little bit. I thought about it a lot. And i thought about like what great disservice would i do. If i wouldn't have that conversation with them. I can make up a thousand and reasons of why i'm upset you know i can physically see ten Those that become a hundred. And now. I'm not quite sure how to like. My parents raised me Had given everything that i have. And i just feel like i won't be able to appreciate everything that they've done for me without really understanding their identity and something. That's been a blessing in my family. Is that we communicate all the time if we're upset if we're really happy it's knowing like the stories abou- came to america like what we're doing their whole experience. I've always been known to us. It's i grew up with these stories but they don't know our experiences. We were kind of telling about that. So you know once i was able to understand them understand that i understand what they're saying right i get it. I understand that when you say you can't go outside because you're a girl which actually trying to save like you're afraid of the world because the world isn't as advanced as i think it is and it's not as idealistic and you know depending on what job article -cation you live in the time of the day. I mean i it can go on endlessly. You know there are some factors that can still impact me so it's just like al. I just started looking at facts. And i started looking at. Maybe there are some commonalities. We can talk about. Maybe we can start there. So it's like once. I was able to help them understand it. I empathize and i understand that. They did the best they could. That's when my genuine kindness came up. And i was able to express myself like hey like you guys have been hurting in these ways. Can you have a conversation about that and you know. It wasn't always nice calm. Sometimes it's very abrupt like hey we're gonna talk. They're like i'm just trying to wash his. Tv show talk about but it was like you know like the delivery of that conversation how i had always started with always move but i'm i'm grateful to how bad because i feel like at the end of the day. The one thing we have learned is that you know. And we're paying monolithic. There some dislike people are monolithic. Everyone's different and you know she'd give them the opportunity to understand. You know what you're buying through what they have been through and what it means to be american or whatever country you're at You're always learning something about each other. And i've i've learned a lot about them and that to just genuine kindness like i see them at the human i then as my parents before my parents and then maybe a human. If they're still capable of being a humid that i mean but a lot of reflection and Roll like somebody saying they're rolling cooler version. It like what would i do that was how do you see that kind of plain out. Now that you are going to be apparent yourself have you given some thought about you. Know how you'd like to raise your child kind of bringing from those two from your two cultures. I think like thought about this lot. Obviously and you know thinking about you know culture and the beauty. I still associated with being. American is the ability to take whatever you want and well. Now that i'm expecting mom i think about like what i would expect for. My child had their expectation. But there's a few things that i think i think are important like the good human being appreciate everyone from every walk of life and also more importantly just have some technical sense of either. You know an understanding if wade on electric grads be have gratitude towards us great but you know like where you come from and you know like for me and my husband and you had the beauty of picking the best traits in the indian culture and the best shape in the american culture but if my child wants to pick other traits from other cultures feel free to because the more that we learn about other cultures. The more chase you feel like this is your calling this dentist. Is you the better that we can all be at societe as humanity. I think there's a lot of friction that can happen. Is this like especially because we're different face. You know two different cultures and stuff like that. I think the more inclusive that you become the more that you are about how everyone is just just the same regardless of how they see you know religion they practice is just what makes you a decent human being and i think like one of the struggles with like being a south asian female is that sometimes and you're going to experience a child immigrants. There's like one narrative of best south asian culture. That's like down your throat and like you have to either accept all of it or decline everything else. But i think like i'm seeing more and more now people having the ability and feeling brave enough to accept those experiences and the he not their own south asian experience. And it's because of that. I feel like a lot of people feel more inclusive learning about other south asian identities but also just in general the other identities there like around the world But i mean. That's what. I'm hoping i just you know i love my kid like you can do whatever you want. Pick any pick any religion. Pick any you know. Pick any like cultural identity that you wanna pick As long as you're a decent human being and you know you just appreciate life and you show gratitude towards people that interact with daily basis. I'm okay with that you know and are you. Are you planning on on raising your tiled bilingual. Maybe that's like my whole plan is somehow but it's filtered so i'm just like you know like the way that i understand you know. Obviously it is kind of american. Fortunately and the way that he my husband understand language. It's a little americanized so again scheme is drop them off like just just only talk to them chubby. Do not talk to minute english. And then we're going to talk her child in english and what the english fusion that we have and you know like having the grandparents be involved in to like the you know in the beginning stages can help us learn back. I do feel you know one of the decisions. My parents may was making sure that i understood chubby and didn't teach me english. I kind of feel. Like i'm gonna do some of that too. Because i feel like you know and young and learning important where you come from. My mom comes from this section dot affection and that she's to learning. Abcd can really help the The child learns but also more importantly just like disadvantage if they have an interest in learning if they don't comply as well and and just to close out the interview of we wanted to ask you about in your experience in doing this the research and writing the book and that's a self-discovery experience right you know in in it can be difficult sometimes. It could be you know. Maybe you find out things that you really hadn't thought about and you're realizing things about yourself that you really never confronted before so we wanted to know. What did you learn about yourself. You know while you writing this book. I feel like even i was gonna pandemic. It's that's also number one. Delay karate respect. When i was writing. I learned so much about myself About some of the deep. You know memories of experiences. That i've just kind of hidden away that i don't think about thought about them in a different line. There was a lot of emotion. It's just an emotional experience So i'm a really good emotion. Some are really bad emotions. There'd be days when. I'm just sitting there profusely crying and i. I can't even say why i'm like i didn't get by ice cream. Magic like just had ice cream today. I'm like no like when i was walking the streets et just like we'll talk later but it just like the biggest thing that i learned is that it's okay to be emotional. It's okay to really authentically. Feel all of those positive and negative emotion to understand your identity. You know who why you've chosen to become the person that you are. There might be some things you're still you know dealing with healing people. It takes awhile for people sometimes to like. You know overcome some obstacles and some experiences from their childhood and in the into their adulthood. To like you'd be at peace with it. The biggest thing that i learned that actually pretty tough. And i'm actually pretty fair in my understanding of like my family is my community. Is that the biggest thing that was scared me. It was just being silent about it. Because i've been so silent because the smart indian concept and while she had that facade. You don't wanna be bandaged k. One needs to really understand my experiences because technically smart india. Now i can show the sodden condi- you know what i mean like. No one needs to know about these things. i think it's a great disservice. We do when we don't actually speak our truth and understand that other people like speech and they don't have to be other south asian. It can be anyone expecting these These conflicts from different cultural identities that they're just looking for someone to say. Hey i've also experienced as well but I realized that regardless of a negative or positive emotion to enjoy and celebrate them both equally because they teach you a lot of your upbringing. Thank you so much to sa- brecon receiver letting us into her world. You can find zero at book retailers. Nationwide we are so happy to be back in this new season and looking forward to covering new areas of bilingual bicultural development to continue the conversation. Join us on facebook. Instagram or twitter. At end of those podcast are set up mc nos vamos through

university of maryland college Sabrina america baltimore city university of baltimore banja Baltimore county baltimore paolo university of maryland jobe Monica queens Ma monterey county london dan paul florida matt
Episode #10 - Interview with Kim Johnson ft. This is My America

The Book Junkie

37:24 min | 8 months ago

Episode #10 - Interview with Kim Johnson ft. This is My America

"Hey guys welcome to the book Junkie podcast. This is a podcast where I discuss diverse. Friends interview authors about their amazing books. My friends and I talk about plot. Themes quotes in Hell. The story relates to us in real life. Especially because we're teenagers, it's pretty much a casual conversation. It's just you guessed it all about books. When I interviewed the as an opportunity to pick their brain about questions in other things, I noticed in the book. It's really awesome because you as well as I get an inside peak of what the book is all about. Let's get into the episode. Today I am joined by the lovely Miss Kim Johnson who is the author of? This is my America. She is a college administrator who maintained civic engagement throughout the community while also mentoring black student activists in leaders. She has a degree from the University of Oregon and the University of Maryland College Park. This is my America. Is Her debut novel and in fact? It really reminded me of your Martin by Nick Stone. It explores the racial injustices in the government and the corruption that prejudice can bring. I love this book so much that I honestly couldn't put it down. Miss Johnson. Thank you so much for coming to talk to me. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Talk Books and just show your praises 'cause. You are so amazing yourself so I'm excited an honor to be here. Thank you so when you first started writing the book. What was the impetus for the concept? And in what ways do you connect to the main Turner Tracy? Yeah a really good question I had been reading Dear Martin I. Mean Sorry I'm Derek Justice at the time. This was before a couple of the server. More prominent young adult books came out like Dare Martyn and the heat you give and. And when I was reading it, I felt like it was representing so many of the issues that are going on in our world around the criminal justice system, and that connect to our own communities, and I was writing young adult work. I hadn't had anything published yet, and I was still trying to find my voice and during that same time was right around where Eric Garner almost six years. Years ago couldn't breathe because of what happened to him with police. At at that time, my son was six and he came down our stairs while we were watching the news, he immediately saw it and was like what is happening. What is going on? Why won't they stop and that really stuck with me for a really long time and I decided. I, wanted to do something more with my with my. My writing work, just want to go back to having read just mercy I really felt like since I think about teams and a work with a Lotta, teens and young adults like what were their life be like? If they are put into this situation and so I started writing, I wanted to write a story that connected to not only issues, a police brutality and sorta first interaction of our. Criminal Justice System but the full cycle of what can happen if you are wrongly convicted and the impact, it has on a family, and so so that's what I started writing, and why started writing it and there's so many ways that connected with Tracy I wrote Tracy, the main character to represent all the activists that I work with and even thinking about myself as A. A young activist when I was really involved in you know social justice organizations like the end up, Lacey Pe-, council, or Buck, student unions, or a multicultural on student union groups where I opted would lead, and I wanted a character that had a lot of agency, and was doing something to make the world better doing something to saw what was happening with her own family. That book really highlights some traits in Tracy that are relatable for a lot of teenagers that I see today because they may share those same experiences, and I know for a fact that a lot of people share the same experience. She had where her dad was imprisoned. He was wrongly convicted. And that's just how the American government system is working in it so flawed and it really destroys the family unit for a lot of African American families. Families and other families that are minorities. So what do you think about the disproportionate incarceration rates for black men in America? And how did that play into writing the story? Yeah, it's it's so profound when you talk about it to me in that year recognizing it and I think we're seeing a lot in the world right now as people are looking at our current criminal justice system is that you know US population of African American and. Black people are about thirteen percent, but if you look at incarceration rates there at forty five percent. If you look at time spent disproportionately by race, you can really track the data all over the country. There's not one st is actually has an equal way of looking at the crime. Versus the time actually spent and this is something that's been going on for decades and decades I do a of research just because of my college background of looking at this the history of where our prison system came into play, and it really stems all. All the way looking back at slavery when slaves were freed that wasn't something that was widely accepted. In fact, there was a lot of fear around the fact that now I'm slaves that had been mistreated. who were American would now be we out in the world in, so they actually started the have these patrol wagons where they would take mostly black men black boys if they were on the street, arrest them for what they called loitering by just being out in the community, and would thence and to presence and Wa- slavery. Wasn't accepted anymore. There was a clause in what we what we call. The Thirteenth Amendment that said slavery could still occur if it was for payment of a crime, and so that history is so long in our country, the fear mongering that occurs in terms of when you suspect someone is guilty of someone or up to something ominous as quotation marks on that language, it disproportionately impacts African American community because race plays such a huge factor in looking at our communities that you know are. Over policed, and you know over harassed in terms of those that are targeted for being pulled over, or just like basically walking being block, and that impacts our communities, and so I really wanted to demonstrate and explain in a way that could reach young adults for them to understand why there might be used in a community, or why that there's a sort of like legacy that occurs at someone is incarcerated that their children are almost three times more likely to offset some point. Be Incarcerated at some point in their life and. I really wanted to demonstrate the bias that was there and using the model of like someone who actually was wrongfully incarcerated assertive. A baseline to look at this terrible thing happened in not only do happen. Now it's going to happen to the next generation so I really wanted a lot of those themes to to be there and not just focus one aspect of our criminal justice system. Yes, and I think that in the book the relationship between Jamal and his father in the way that the public looked onto that relationship, especially because the father was already incarcerated. Demonstrated that it's really a stigma. They number one didn't know for sure that he was guilty, even though he was incarcerated because there was such a lack of evidence in so much. You know. It was just fake. They were making things up just to convict him for the fact that they wanted a conviction in because they already had that bias and wanted to feel comfortable, but then it fell onto the children, and it just shows how the suffered because the world was not rooting for them, especially in that specific community, going back to the thirteenth amendment in the big boom of incarceration rates for black men in back black people in general. General from then to now, what do you think about the treatment of black people in America as a whole and around the world, especially with more recognition for the black lives matter movement right now. And how did that impact the writing of this book? Yeah, I mean if you look at all around the world, the treatment of black people and just color ISM that occurs in terms of the darker. You are, the more mistreated or misjudged that you. You are. It doesn't just happen in the United States. It happens all over the country. It actually even even happens in Africa when you look at colonialism that occurred in where people outside of the continent wanted to come in, and and basically try to run run, Africa, run all these you know large countries you know, and it stems from a lot of different places, but how I really try to to write about it in my story and. And why you know I think about the mistreatment. Is that often? It's looked at as there's an issue with black people, and it's sort of this pointing the finger rather than pointing at back at society, pointing back at what are the reasons why the action are mistreated? What are the reasons why you know you have? These sort of rates of incarceration serve are looking at it to the black community when really they should be looking at their underfunded. They're not supported the targeted the harassed. They don't have the same. You know benefit of the doubt. If someone is walking on the street, who are they actually going to try to harass versus someone that they might just let go or not? Even bother follow in store all different kinds of experiences and so I, really wanted to write about that because feel like there's a lot of blaming. That's out there without actually looking at the root of the problem in really owning up to you know that it's actually not the problem of black America. It's the problem of our society and even white. America's lack of recognition of their role in creating this system. That really is unjust. And so I started talking just about Eric Garner in how that spurred by interest in wanting to write this story, but it also was my students so I work at a university work with college, students and seniors in high school and a lot of them right after Eric Garner in Mike Brown in the protests that were occurring in Ferguson where the black lives matter. Movement really basically began I wanted to be. Be Able to talk about it in my story, my students were mobilizing. There were very organized. They created a list of demands for the campus that I work at to respond to. That would address their needs of not only their needs, but needs of black staff and faculty and I just saw how they had that sort of that energy that I had when I was younger working on similar kinds of issues around. Around police brutality, and so it really It really inspired me to think about. How can I use the tool that I am using to have a voice which is writing and so I really wanted to honor my students and honored to students all around the country, and I think the most amazing thing. Is I wrote this story at the time. You started writing at several years ago and I I didn't know. Know. What people would think about it like? I didn't know people actually would believe all of the things that I knew to be true in terms of the cycle, that's their white supremacy, not only in your face, but the way that systems are built by a sin, not only policing investigation, and how difficult it is to actually free. Someone I thought that maybe I was trying to put too much in a book. But right now, everything that's happening in the world. I think that there might have been people a month ago. Who would have picked up my book and been like I? Don't believe that most of this is even possible would now look at it and be like Oh my goodness? There are so many stories that actually are just like the story that I'm telling in his book and so I for me. I believe that it's like. If you speak the truth, the more power you actually can employ to me change. Change and I hope that my story people see even though it's fiction that it's a part of like telling the truth. Yeah, I'm glad that there is such a big responses to issues like this now, because the issue of over policing and corruption in the government has been such a big problem for a very long time, but it hasn't really been recognized, or it's been recognized pushed down again because in reality, black people in America are starting on a lower step. We have the climb harder we have to work. Harder and Thing is just more difficult because we are looked at as less than even though we are all equal. And I was wondering what I was reading the book how tracey's life would be different if her father was never placed in prison specifically on death row, because that played a big part in how she interacted with the people around her, would she have such a large interest in journalism investigations or she beyond a different path? Yeah, that's such a good question and I think I. Try to play around with that trying to be really intentional the play around with that in my story by having a lot of different characters that based on. Issue that happened in their lives that it really changed the trajectory of their lives, so quincy was a character in the book for example who lost his father unjustly, and it completely changed not only his life, but his relationship with Tracy. I have another character Tasha. WHO's Tracy's best friend? Her lived experience sort of changed the way that she responds and an axe to her friendship. and I do think that there are pivotal moments in people's lives that where there's so much promise and hope and possibility that the these things could actually occur so quickly that their life could completely change, and I wanted to demonstrate that Missouri, and so I think it's such a good question to think about. Tracy was living her life in this never happened to her father, her father could have been a huge businessman and he. He could have built up his community and she could have had a lot more opportunities, but then the reality is is that because a lot of things haven't changed? There could have been another challenge that faced or you know her life experience. There might be more things now that she can do in her life, she she could become a big time. Lawyer focused on saving other people, and this was sort of trajectory that happened and it's it's so many different different ways that people can have their own life experience, and basically how do they survive through them can be. Can Be so many different options, but what I would well it really want to focus on is that it's not fair that someone's life path had to change because of injustice. Put onto their family. You know it's not fair that her brother Jamal. Had to then become quote, unquote the man of the family, and had to balance all these different things trying to take care of his family trying to take care. Of his sister watch out for her working a lot, so he can make money to help help for the family which kind of took away? Maybe even his possibilities because his dream to go to college, it could have been anywhere in the country, but he wanted to choose somewhere close to home, and I don't for him in particular I don't think that Jamal. Tracy's brother would have chosen Baylor to go to college. I think that he just found that as the. The best option for him because he wanted to be close to home, so it's all these little moments that change people's lives and I think Tracy just tried to make the best of it, and I think her future is hopefully still very bright and I imagine her doing these amazing things, but it's kind of sad to know that we don't know what the other. Tracy without these burdens without this pain. You know what other beauties could occur in her life. Yes and those kids they had to grow up so fast, and although it may have shaped their experiences that change the future on a different path than meet them on a different trajectory like you said it isn't fair that the it had to happen that way that their dad had to lose so many years of his life that they had to lose so many years with their father and people really take that for granted especially people who don't understand that this is an actual problem in take their lives branch it or take. Take, their parents lives for granted, and I saw a little bit myself in several of the main characters like the curiosity in Tracy the strength that her mom had especially with her husband, being incarcerated like Bat, knowing that he was innocent, and the compassion shown in Jamal and especially the relationship with Korean. So which character did you cannot to the most? Yeah, I'm similar in your view is there are so many different pieces that I saw in other people that I felt like were reflections of of me I. Think the most. Probably was a combination of Tracy Jamal so with tracy she was someone who just attacked the situation and took control and wanted to do something, and like I can totally see that in you like I write pro people like you who are like doing these amazing things with this podcast is like running things and wanting to talk about these issues, and so much of that are what inspires me about the future, and basically hope for our future in young people part of the other character that I did resume saying before was Jamal. Jamal because Jamal was he was actually really responsible. He loved his little sister Karen in the book, and just joked around with her like a rock in in the family for her and I and I find that I'm a middle I'm a middle child in a middle name, actually means like rock means like the stable person you know who holds it down in the family and I think that that's a lot of my personality is to try to like be there for people, and so I sort of saw myself in both those characters. I love that especially that your Middle Name means rock that is so fitting for somebody, especially because I feel like you're a strong person, especially because I could feel the way that you put your emotion and the just the way that you wrote the book in general. If you to add one extra character to the story, who would that be and why Ho you know? There's so many characters in the story, but I actually wish that I would have been able to do more is actually spend more time with Tasha in this story Because you know there was so much going on as a writer. You don't want to necessarily overwhelm the reader with so many things happening, but it was so important to me that she had like a close. Close best friend that almost mirrored her life, but had different experiences and I feel like there's for a reader. There's probably people probably would love to explore even Tasha's life a little bit more, and so in guy I would have spent more time with her. The other is Steve The story, he who was on a young attorney that working for his father's innocence project. I would have loved to spend more time with his dad. Because his data. Me was sort of like the Brain Stevenson. In the story who Bryan Stevenson runs the equal justice initiative, and so I think I would have spent more time, but like would I'm so curious. What would you have wanted to see like? What did you feel like like who I wish? There was a character like this. Okay so when I first looked at the description of the book. I was like. Exactly what I wanted Tasha. Be I. THOUGHT IN MY HEAD? I really hope Tracy has a girl best friend who's just her support system and really close to her so because he just said that you wish you elaborated on Tracy is really interesting, because that's exactly what I thought and I also thought that the relationship between Tracy and dean was something that's common between teenagers right now. Especially, because Tracy is Black Indiana's white and I don't think that it's something that people should just glaze over because there is. Is a difference between those two groups of people in everybody should feel equal, but systematic racism has caused my generation specifically to suffer from the consequences, because it's kind of like forbidden relationship or Romeo, and Juliet not in every setting in not in every community, but especially in Tracy, Indian situation. She was always uneasy because he was white in. She was black, but I think that added another layer to the story. So what made you write? This dynamic into the book cast such a deep question and. I'm glad that you picked up. All of those pieces because I was really really thoughtful with wanting to explore not only just an issue of police brutality, but like my main character I wanted to write to but I wanNA I. WanNa book this approachable and readable by anyone, but it specifically. I really wanted a place for a black girl to feel seen and also for a black girl to be loved. And I think that there isn't enough done in young adult literature where there are first office, black girl, main characters, but those that actually. Actually have a relationship and a relationships aren't value of everyone and so i. definitely recognize that especially if they're you know Hetero relationships. That isn't necessarily the model for everyone, but I really wanted to have an experience where it could help me be explained to a lot of black girls who feel like that. Maybe they're not desired, or maybe they have difficulty actually finding relationships. I felt like that. You know as a young person during up in a predominantly white community where around me, I was just if I was a friend to everyone. But I was never someone who people with at least outwardly say or expect for me to be have a relationship with with with someone. It was expected that I was basically kind of going to be the site friend that would join my friends who were dating a might white rate friends that were dating and I. Wanted to really display this dynamic. Without going I, don't do any spoilers into the story, but I really wanted also to her to have options in the story. I also wanted to demonstrate the unfairness that okay for Jamal to have relationships outside of his race, but he was sort of judging tracy in her, having a relationship with a white boy, and I think that that something that just continues to play in an unfairness in what we see in society about what's accepted and not accepted and you know it's sort of expected or Pressed upon you know that that black women have You know that they do it alone. Do everything alone, and they'll even be single. You know like everything in their life and so I really wanted to play on that and the last thing I really wanted to do and telling that story I also wanted to show dynamic of a true friendship of people who actually really really cared about each other they were. Were of different races, but because Dean was why in Tracy was black, she couldn't actually fully freely be herself because she did feel like she was judged. She didn't feel like she could actually freely go into. Dean's parents store less. His mother wasn't there. And then you know also just speaking to the reality that there are a lot of white kids today who have diverse friends or maybe think about diversity in. In a different way than maybe their parents are, and I really wanted to emphasize that it's their responsibility to really put pressure on their parents to dismantle their racist thinking and behaviors and I don't think that's done enough and so. I really wanted to make it. Be You know uncomfortable for them and I didn't want Tracy to sort of coddle dean. I wanted him to experience discomfort because as a black person. person in this country, we experienced discomfort all the time, and we don't have people consoling us and so I really wanted to represent a friendship that people would want to root for, but show all the hardships all the ways in which the thinking even him. We're having a best friend. WHO's black that they're still could be bias in his thinking, and there can be bias in his family and in his committee. And I think that even goes into the strong black woman stereotype in the fact that it's a double standard i. see this a lot. I've seen that black women and black men. Sometimes black men get upset when white men are in a relationship with a black woman, and they blame the black women like their disowning the black community, which makes no sense to me, but then when a black man can go in day all the white people he wants, it's fine. It's accepted in its fetish is my thing is. Every body is a person like we're all your mint. It's just the amount of melon. It doesn't make sense to me why it has to be such. Such a big issue if you're attracted to somebody outside of your race, and it's very very possible to appreciate all races in be attracted to somebody else who's outside of race. Because of the person they are not just because of their skin color. You know yeah, I mean that's exactly it and I see it I saw it when I was going to college about what was okay at all. My black female friends were pretty much single, and all the black boys had multiple girlfriends. Multiple relationships that they were in and I. See it in my students now twenty years later that it's just not as accepted in okay and I'm seeing more of a change them more of a like a freedom, but if if If. People can find love in so many different ways I'm not sure why it's sort of like looked at differently I think regardless. If you're an interracial relationship, you need to do the work to understand especially the understand the experiences of the the the ones that are marginalized and underrepresented. If you want to actually really honor that partner, but yeah the discrepancy, it's actually a really truck. It's troublesome. I agree with that because I think. Think, it's all about compassion and empathy at the end of the day and understanding where the other person was coming from. I saw a lot of those names in the book. Especially between the relationship with Quincy and Dean in Tracy and all those people who are really close to her. In some way, they were different from each other, which was an important thing to add into the story. What was the hardest part of writing the book? I. Think the hardest part was not trying to. was trying to balance not over explaining so much in this story, there are some really serious complex themes that I was trying to cover, and I didn't want to over. Explain it because I wanted a reader to reach for it if they weren't familiar with something in this story, and so I, really try to bounce it as best as they could. You know I think the other part was that there was just so much I wanted cover. It would be like thousand pages novel if they would let me. They wouldn't let me do it. And no one wants to re bat. That's too long and I. think that was like the hardest part for me was not. Not Trying to put everything in this book, because Michael as a writer is I wanna be able to tell a lot of different stories, and so I think that was that was the hardest and I think the last piece was just trying to honor that I was I was trying to focus on a generational impact story, and so that means that meant I needed to spend some time thinking about the father in the life without the father, but then also trying to keep it in the very current, now of what traces focused on with Jamal trying to find a story, and so I think that was probably the hardest balance to write in the book. It's totally important to find that balance in when I see writers who you WanNa put so many different stories into the world I really appreciate that. There is an effort made to get the different perspectives of the characters, and even the stories themselves. So, what was your favorite part of the writing process? As a whole? I think my favorite part was writing like a really dogged determined black female character, because I felt like I was I was writing for all the like little girls growing up who wanted to like be able to have that experience, and so I think just imagining even as hard as it was really Cathartic to try to take the issues of the world and feel. Feel like I could actually resolve them in a story and I could actually control I think a of like what we're experiencing now for those of us that are paying attention and caring about what's happening to black people in this in this country is that there's so much that doesn't feel like it's out of control. It's so much feels like we just can't fix it. And so for me, I really like I enjoy the opportunity to be able to write something that addressed an issue happening, but you know I could have A. A main character who could discover explorer be part of solving an issue or trying to resolve an issue, and and it was just been able to be in that narrators head for so much in so much of that writing process like I felt like I was like outside of myself. Riding like I felt like there was so much inspiration that was happening that it almost wasn't even like I was writing. It was sort of like this out of body experience, and it was just an amazing experience to be a part in now. Now that I'm looking at the timing of my book coming out and was happening in the world I felt like part of that energy to write was coming from another place, a higher power higher being you know, and I know that there's people who don't believe in that kind of stuff, but I do believe that there are people who have a purpose and I think that everyone has a purpose, and if you can tap into it, you can make broader impact, and that's really what I'm hoping. I did with my book. I love that especially, because in the book Tracy was my hero few. Would so. Strong. She's just like her mom. She knows how to get things done, and she doesn't give up a lot of times in young adult novels. You have the strong black women's do type. Then there's this constant theme where they feel down and there's just this feeling of despair. In although Tracy was going through so many things with her dad and her. Friendships and Everything that was going on in her life. I think that she was a character that really showed that latte girls have magic and that we just get things done. So. Thank you so much for talking to me today. I really love this conversation because I. got some insight into your mind, and I got to hear more about what is now. One of my favorite books ever goes. Yes I love this book so much. Is there anything else that you want to say? No I just? I really enjoyed being able to talk to you in in helping that your listeners. Pick up the and whether it's the library or their school, or whatever the case might be, and that they read the story and put their mind into the heads of. All of the characters in this story and try to figure out who they think that they are and who they want to be, so that's amazing. If you like the conversation, be sure to follow or subscribe to the book. Junkie podcast on whatever platform using right now. If this too interested in reading this America by Kim Johnson, you can pre order a copy on her website Casey. Johnson writes dot, com, or you can wait till releases on July. Twenty eight. Once it releases, you can purchase a copy from Amazon. Or Barnes and noble dot com. If. You'd like to know more about me. visit. broncos drew dot org, which is the website for my nonprofit? You can learn about my personality, my undying love for books, and how I turn that into a nonprofit the helps of. You can also follow Brown gets read on Instagram facebook and twitter all brown country. Also. Don't forget to follow miss. Johnson on Instagram at Casey Johnson writes. I'm glad he made it to the end of this episode. I was so happy. You decided to click on the folks junkie. Thank you so much for listening and be sure to come back for more of my friends discussing diverse young adult books and my conversations with lovely young adult authors until next time of junkies by.

Turner Tracy Tracy Jamal America Tasha Miss Johnson US University of Oregon Eric Garner Tracy I University of Maryland College administrator Nick Stone American government quincy writer Mike Brown Derek Justice Amazon Bryan Stevenson Dare Martyn
AEE 1278: The Typical American College Experience

All Ears English Podcast | Real English Vocabulary | Conversation | American Culture

19:22 min | 1 year ago

AEE 1278: The Typical American College Experience

"This is an English. podcast of twelve. Seventy eight the typical American college experience. Welcome to the all all ears. English podcast downloaded more than one hundred and thirty million times. We believe in connection not perfection with your American hosts Linzie McMahon the English adventurer and. Michelle Kaplan The New York radio girl coming to you from Los Angeles and New York City you S A and to take your learning deeper with real time transcripts and vocabulary practice download our APP on your device go to all ears English dot com slash bonuses. Are you curious about college life in the US today. Michelle I'm Lindsay will share their stories from college and you'll find out how higher education is different in the US compared with your country. Hey Michelle happy. Mid December our you lindsay. I'm good I'm good. How are you excellent? Feeling good feeling good. I've I've been reminiscing lately about college the college days you really. Oh my gosh. Did you have a good college experience. Of course I had an awesome experience. Yeah I remember my friends from freshman year. That's the key the people you meet freshman year become your friends through all of university. That's funny because that was my a situation. Sophomore Year Sophomore Year. Okay what happened freshman year. I mean like I made friends freshman year definitely. There was one friend that I kept for a very very long time. I haven't spoken in a while but I would say like the friend that stayed with me. Longest were the friends that I met in sophomore year. I just had rape or sophomore year. which is kind of interesting? That's awesome. I mean we have to hang onto those friends. Yeah yeah that's cool. Yeah sometimes I really Miss College and you know I but one thing I like I like because I teach at colleges universities and I get a little taste of college but then it makes me feel old I now or or they seem so young. The kids who are freshmen in college right now but we're old. We're Yeah Lindsay today today. We actually have a fun question. I'm so excited to get to this about college in the US so we're going to read this question in just a second but first Lindsay. What do our listeners have to do? Yes you guys have to go ahead right now and hit. Subscribe wherever you are listening. Whether you're listening apple podcasts spotify wherever it is you wanna hit that subscribe button because we are putting out bonus episodes every once in a while. You don't WanNa miss them so hit subscribe now guys awesome awesome all right so lindy we got this awesome question from Carmen. So do you WanNa start the question if you want we can also switch off. Yeah let's do it so this is so my my my name is Carmen and I am from Spain. A media consultant and writer. Fancy fancy all right first of all. I'd like to let you know that I've been listening to your podcast for almost two year. And it's really helped me to come to become more fluent in English and to seek deeper connections. I love that Michelle. That's awesome. That's great. Thank you for listening. Yeah at the moment woman. I work remotely in a multicultural team and sometimes I struggled to understand native accents from Australia England and the US you can't imagine how helpful are pro. Your program remiss for me okay. That's awesome now. I have a great story to share with you. I listened to today's episode. Are you game. Remember that episode with all those great phrases leases that are likely to be used in job interviews. Believe it or not I had one today in the same organization and after expressing my interest in explaining my experience I said Ed. I'm up for the challenge. We all laughed and from that point we talked in a very relaxed way. It looks like I almost got the job. Keep your fingers crossed added Carmen. I hope so too. You WanNA continue the question. Michelle Jar here. We go also. May I ask you to explain your experience. At university courses degrees campus life et CETERA. We learned a lot of music TV series and books. I'd be delighted to listen to your experience. I'm very curious as the path you walked until your current job once again. Thank you you rock and really have a big impact on our lives. They have a nice day Carmen. Well thank you so much harmonizing. That's so cool. Michelle well doesn't it. Feel good to know that our listeners love the show and it actually helps them connect with English that to me makes it all worth it all of Gosh. That's why that's why we're here guys. We're here free you and we're so happy to hear nice comments like this and yeah we're GONNA continue to help definitely so I'm excited for today. Michelle cool me too. Oh yeah this is a great chance. You know Lindsey. We're GONNA share some of our stories about college and give you guys a taste of college life in the U. S.. So you know. I'm I'm sure that we could do a ton of episodes question so we're going to choose a few things to talk about today but we'll continue talking about college in the future but yeah we have done some really old episodes. I'm going yeah. We did one more right. We did one with my original co-host before in twenty thirteen eighteen. Oh my gosh. We've been pod guessing for a long time Michelle here episode. Five number five is college in the US worth the price and we but we macos than I had different opinions on that. Actually so that was interesting. You should go check that one out. What else Michelle episode episode? Six four English vocab words to discuss college in the US. So guys definitely. Oh we can talk about college today and then we did also recently episode eleven seven d three. I think maybe this was with Jessica. You did throw back Thursday challenge on instagram. And you were talking about how to talk about the past and that would definitely it really be helpful for today's episode right good point Michelle because it's all about you know you have the stories. But how do you talk about them with the right grammar tenses and all that good stuff remember number guys. It's really easy to find these episodes if you're in the APP so just type the episode number in the search bar inside the APP okay. Cool all right so we're GonNa Talk About College today. Yeah we are going to also give you some good Freezes good words to go along with this episode So let's get into some question. Some questions Lindsey. So we're just GONNA talk through it and guys you're going to taste of college so Lindsay I'm going to ask you and then I can answer to So why did you choose the school you attended. Where did you go? Oh my gosh. So I went to. I went to Mary. Washington College. which was in Fredericksburg Fredericksburg Virginia? And I actually went back to visit it this past summer and it was so hot down there. I forgot how hot Virginia can get in the summertime. Oh my gosh but I chose it because because of honestly because of tennis so I was a big tennis player in high school and I wanted to play college tennis. I went down at the coach. I also noticed that the weather it was amazing. I went down on a beautiful April weekend and I got a taste of that. I was like yes that is for me and so and so but yeah yeah. I ended up playing tennis for four years except for my semester abroad in Paris and that was like a that was a fundamental part of my college. Experience was college athletics. So that's why why went to Mary. Washington what about you Michelle. Where'd you yeah? Well I went to University of Maryland College Park and that is sorry. A big school right. Yes that's a state school. Yeah what is a state school and say. Yeah so we're GonNa talk about these vocabulary. Words a little bit in a in a little while is but a state. School is basically a public college or university. That's funded by taxpayer money from the state. So usually it's a little bit cheaper for in-state people. Yeah if you grew up there if you live there and it's often even cheaper out of it can be a different price point for out of state students and in state students exactly so I went to a state school. That was my state. School helped a little bit with the costs. But that doesn't mean it's cheap but yeah I also. I went there because I had thought about going to school in the city city but then I realized walking around Maryland that I really wanted the typical college Campus experience with the football team and the basketball team. And I just I wanted to experience that life. Because there's only really at that time in your life when you can have that and so I also my brother went there. My you know other family members went there and I know people love it so it's a good school. Yeah yeah that's really interesting. I also had those thoughts when I first went to Mary Washington. I thought it was a bubble so it was a very very typical campus. Like Jeffersonian southern architecture. Everything is in one place right like you know you walk through the door. There's no city life and at that time I was hungering for city the life I actually thought about transferring to Gw or American University in wash or even. Be You like going to Boston. But I'm glad I didn't because you're right right that time period is super unique in the. US We only have one time in which we can live in. dorms eat in the dining all the best friends of our lives. It's their unique experience. So I'm glad I didn't go to a city school and transferring. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah me too So yeah I mean so we were already talking about. This is a little bit but you were saying that you think you went to kind of a typical school so like movies like the campus. I mean so I mean. What is that? Typical experience is taller listeners. A little bit more about what we mean by that. Yeah I mean I think. My school was typical in some ways. And kind of atypical. Good word today. Right atypical in other ways guys. Write that down so we definitely had that contained campus beautiful campus absolutely gorgeous award winning campus right and we had a dining hall we. We lived on on campus and the dorms every year except for my senior year we lived off campus in a house that we rented the four of us but in the sense of we didn't have we had sports. Obviously sleep played tennis. We had a rugby team. But we didn't have the big school. Typical experience like the huge football games. We didn't have that part of the typical American College. But it sounds like you you did Michelle. Yeah sports was a big deal and in our in my freshman year. The women's basketball team won the the championship. And that was just like such a fun experience. You know you it going to the Games and being on campus. I don't there's there's really nothing like that experience but in the beginning I was a little bit homesick even though I went to school. Forty five minutes away from my parents. I wasn't used I used to it. It's hard to get used to win. And also you know dorms. That's another typical thing. You know gross dorms dorms and the summer like you said Lindsay. The there's no air conditioning. dorms there's no like central. ACN Yeah there was like there were one or two doors. That had it but I was not in those do not and so that was really really hard in the beginning so yeah but go ahead no go ahead no it was just yeah it was. It was hard to adjust to in the beginning and after a couple of months I I loved it and I never looked back so I'm glad I had that experience. Yeah I think this is the part that our listeners might find interesting how different it it is. I find it kind of interesting too right. We leave home at eighteen for college and were expected to be an adult at that point. I mean not entirely right because often. I mean in many people's parents will help them pay for college so you may be still having your parents help you pay for meals college tuition but in some ways you're on your own you're like okay. I'm not living at at home anymore. And that can be really how that can cause a lot of home-sickness. My I found out quickly the my school unfortunately was kind of a suitcase school. A little bed. That does that mean people leave on the weekend. Yes yes it was and I of course hard to I. He was from New Hampshire. My family I wasn't going to go home right so I was all in on my experience and a lot of my friends freshman year would go home and I would be like. Oh you're not going home again in this weekend. Sometimes they would take me home because it was a state school. Also but Virginia states lived in Virginia. But so then that meant we got. We got to have home cooked meals at their home. Sometimes odds but that created a bit of a lonely feeling sometimes Yeah Yeah I could definitely see that. Oh that's hard. Yeah Wow did you. Here's a funny question. Lindsey did you put on the Freshman Fifteen. Oh God it's such a good question even though I was running sprint on the tennis court pretty much every day yes I feel like I put on about ten pounds probably. Yeah what about you. Yeah I definitely I remember because I thought Oh. There's no way I didn't realize that it was is happening because I would go to the gym. There was a gym and I actually I was really into going and so I thought there's no way that I've put on weight. And then on winter break my mom was like it up and I weighed myself and sure enough. It had happened so funny exactly and I remember looking like what is it. What what is it and I I knew what it was then I would? I would eat on. You know because guys another keyword. Today's meal plan. You got kind of these meal plans ends where you can go in and swipe card. Anyway I would always eat these. Wraps Tortilla rep like with like chicken fingers arisen ranch dressing and eat that like every day and I would say oh well. It's a sandwich it's good for you and I'm sure that it was that ranch dressing and the fried chicken. Oh that's so fun. I mean you can't get away from it. This is also a good structure for you guys to remember for our listeners. To put on the Freshman fifteen meaning to gain weight right the phrases the freshman freshman fifteen. This is the expected amount of weight that most freshman in college hood on right. Just because you're not used to eating at a dining hall where it's usually just a unlimited. Yeah you can go up as many times as you want and you get into a habit of eating more than you're used to at home. Yeah true your mom said something. Oh my gosh yeah. I didn't realize that I did not realize I love my mom so she she was just trying to be helpful and she was right and then I took it off. I stopped eating the the wraps ads the way to do it. I love that. Yeah but don't worry you're not the only one that's okay. Yeah so what about a funny memory. I mean this you know. Everyone's got kind of a funny memory from college. Did anything funny happened to you. Michelle in college. That you remember he will. I mean this was kind of. I don't know how to weird assignment from a teacher. Ah assignment was you had to write about. You had to do something you would never done before it like you to do some sort of project project within either. Write about it or talk about I. I'm not sure why we had this project but it was kind of interesting to think of doing something you've never done before and for me. Even though I'm a night owl I had never pulled an all nighter. Yeah my which meant guys. That's a keyword. I never stayed up the entire night without going to sleep. Okay I would always go to sleep at least a little bit so I wanted to try and stay up all night. So my friend agreed as she didn't stay up all night but I was staying up all night and the g agreed agreed to drive with me at like seven in the morning to my high school like forty five minutes away and before class like go meet everybody the and CNC my old teachers and stuff. And I was like. I'm up all night. I haven't slept and so we we went and we did that. And and then I went back and I went to class and then I just totally graduate. 'cause I was exhausted so I mean I have some better stories that I'll have to think about but that was the first one that came came to my mind. Just this like random staying up all night and running around and embarrassing myself. My old high school. That's awesome. I love that I love that. Yeah I'm sure I have some stories to. I do remember once in my sociology. Class similar thing. We had to break a social norm. Was the assignment so I showed up and I bought like a hundred oranges. I filled my grocery cart with one hundred inches and just to see what that would feel like just to do it and and absorb how the person looked at you. Typical Weird College assignment. Yeah Right. They're Kinda funny. Just fill the grocery car with origin. So maybe we'll do a follow up episode Michelle on our college stories that and we could do a lot on this and we are barely scratching the surface today but just before we go guys. We've learned a few terms today for college so we've done state school. Aw Meal Plan and Freshman fifteen some of the ones that we talked about today. Yeah perfect segues. Write those down and use these as as a springboard to ask your native speaking friends about their college experience because you're going to see some similarities with all college students in the US and there may there may be some differences for them too so to start the conversation right Michelle what's the takeaway today. Yeah we'll people think love talking about college because it brings about some nostalgia INLANDS that's why we can't stop talking about it because there's so much to say and that's why we could do a whole week of episodes on college Tom but this is a great a question. Try asking people some of the questions that we talked about today freshman fifteen you gotta use an joking light hearted way you know you never know how can always be a little touchy so I guess maybe be careful with that one as long and make sure you feel comfortable with the person but yeah try these ones out today today. Yeah that's a good point. I just want to reiterate one thing. You said Michelle one key to connection is letting people go back into their own this Daljit and asking follow up questions. It's I think after that conversation. They'll like you more right. Bill actually enjoy your conversation more. Because they had a chance to to indulge in their own memories right this morning I was on the phone with a contractor a professional that I'm going to be working with and we're talking about the topic of Colorado the state of Colorado and he proposed to his wife in Colorado Rutto. He had all these memories and he just went off and talk for five minutes about his memories in Colorado and I just ask follow up questions and allowed him to do that. Yeah build a connection Shen that can become really strong right right right right definitely I love it this is this has been so much fun. Let's definitely continue this conversation. Another time awesome. I Love Michelle. Talk to you soon. Have a good day. All right. My Lindsey I thanks for listening to all ears English. If you're taking I'll this year. Get your estimated band score with our two minute quiz go to all ears English dot com slash the score and if you believe in connection not perfection then hit subscribe now to make sure you don't miss anything. See you next time nine.

Michelle US tennis Lindsay Lindsey Carmen American College University of Maryland College Michelle Kaplan Virginia Michelle Jar rape Linzie McMahon spotify football New York Colorado Los Angeles American University
#41  A Food Hubs Diverse Food Shed For A Resilient Future

Edible-Alpha� Podcast

40:28 min | 2 years ago

#41 A Food Hubs Diverse Food Shed For A Resilient Future

"Welcome to ethical alpha podcast series, your source for actionable insights into making money and food. I'm Tara Johnson, the tears weighty, and we're here to talk to a wide range of stakeholders about what it really takes to grow financially, viable food business. Hey, thanks for calling in this morning. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate. Yeah. So you are calling from the land of of rain after rain after rain, right? I five inches or more each day. I'll my goodness five inches or more EJ. So why don't you start by introducing yourself in? And what you do. My name is Ron Williams junior. I am a Waterman and a farmer near in lint. On the check with Pete day, and what I mean aggregate seafood as well as farm products, free produce and some livestock from other farmers, and then be redistributed to areas that are underserved as far as grocery stores or farmers market. And so we have a subscription service folks up to you can get a community supported fishery bundle. You can get a community support act bundle. You can get a community supported butchery bundle. Basically, they are just product services where folks could bundle up products. You know, traditionally UCF as or your subscription services only do produce in vegetables. But we wanted to take take a little bit further because we were serving underserve air. Area. And we wanted to give them a variety of products that they could supply. So we've been doing that since two thousand fourteen folks could get Maryland blue crabs picking get collard greens. They can get killed green. They can get strawberry. They can get fresh moisture. Oh my God. Can you come to Wisconsin? Sure, maybe a little hard little far. Oh boy. That is so fantastic. Yeah. And so we. We we wanted to make sure when we were doing this that we could build a model that everyone could purchase of whether you had e-bt was you had cash, but you had credits. One parent. Household to household family household, what have you? And we wanted the product by to look exactly what our membership or our customers wanted. So we didn't learn from the finances to choose. We didn't want to have stuff sitting on our shelves more. And if and if it did how we been approached that problem, do we you know, taking off the shelf and then as as valued throw it away. Do we, you know, do we? Like, how do we how do we attack that problem? So. We in. We are in the sense trying to be fully a sustainable model business where everything that we're using everything that we're producing is sustainable base. So tell me about your shares can people choose what's in their boxes or do. You. Just put what's available in the boxes. People can choose what's in the boxes from what's available. So I can choose. Yeah. You can choose from the CS day, the V or the CSS, and it depends on your dollar amount. Twenty five dollars it products. So folks won't fifty dollars worth of product some two could be all for product. And some some folks just once, you know, the the fresh seafood that we have for my community fishery live. D- those numbers because we're you know, we're keeping that data retracting what our customers are buying not just one time, you know, looking at website, but multiple places and how we can tell like what are there like likes or whether they're dislikes? So you are you are I guess do you? Call yourself a food hub. We are calling themselves with food hunting. Now. Always do the food finances. So after the food training, really take a deep dive look at how we approach from commodity to from you know, putting it on the table how right off it from all different areas. Whether it be added value, whether it'd be just straight commodity mobile. So yeah, what have you? And so we looked at what capacity did we have implement this new sort of deep down that we did. So we looked at the fact that we can do Maryland blue crabs. We can do this because we have the capacity to do that. And we have the capacity the aggregate from other farmers if we ourselves our our our brand didn't go out and get we had other folks that can't round. And so what we what we did was we said how? How do we keep it on a supply chain that could be a guess ever constant so and when folks, you know, ordered in they went to the website, and they said I wanted, you know, seafood in our network. It's apply. Or did we have a supply this and our house by them at that at that particular point in time? So we try to give our customers NS inscribed with as much variety as possible. And and flexibility. So we started with about twenty in two thousand fourteen and now we're up to about four hundred eighty nine consistent members that like we call like converted actual members. So they bought from us three and four times. Time we have that data to track. That's a that's terrific. That's incredible growth and enjoy it is like the average order size. We have about two items per order size of that. Or size is about fifty seven dollars. They when they ordered the seafood action. A usually bumped the cart priced up, of course, of course. And. Yeah. So even we can so so we deliver. Yeah. So do deliver to drop sites or individual sites, individual houses and. Okay. So we delivered directly to your door. And so what we found out were that we found that we were getting most of our customers in underserved areas like southeast Washington DC, which is. You know, high high crime high in poverty. Store. There was the area. Christner's county call district seven that bordered that area, and they had we had high numbers of purchases from those areas. Which didn't have a lot of you know, farmers markets or a fresh food stores that they had the big the big box stores, but those big box with destination base, and they weren't connected to transit oriented development. Right. You need a car to drive to. So a lot of those in there. You did not have cars go. We we saw that demographically say all right? Let's hold on beat it down. That's let's let's flood those for those markets. We call those are market almost the bigger market. And we said all right. We know that one hundred fifty so purchase CeCe that month loop has or shares or what we started doing terrorists. We started doing. Plate. So if we had chicken, or we had collard greens over, you know, lettuce and radish and some of a lot of commodity clocks, we created coleslaw, chicken, play kale greens. So you know, you got that finished product directly delivered to your door. And we had we found a way to do with the leftover must have product would inevitably left on the show and nobody purchase. And so we started thinking and numbers of people from the area that will purchasing plates. And so that was another part of the sort of line that we put on there, and we call the sustainable place because most of the products that we will cooking with all organic. And we advertise labeled it that way. This is all you know, again, I so I don't know any other hob that has managed to do that level of complexity of the business model you have. And by that. I mean, you're doing. You know, made fish and vegetables, you're doing home delivery, you're doing this all is aggregated CSA. I mean, I guess you're close to the Bayfield farmers cooperative model that would be close that would be the other one. I would know, but this is a complex then you're operating here. Complex in the sense that it has never been done before. But when you get when you get on the ground, you see that the these are all sort of intertwine that in extract link. No, it was it was like so when crabbing season started, you know, or when it rained it December twenty fifth. What are you going to next in the Jason we were adjacent to the land? And so there's like quite naturally you fond the way so. You've been having some crazy weather out in the southeastern part of the country. Haven't you craving women in particular rain? He had been destructive for for farmers and fishers. So Neil are significantly down the rain man, it also teaching us like would you do for you know, eventuality such as banning or we? Yeah. Doing plan b as a result. And so we got caught. Yeah. Blind at least thinking that. Oh, we're not gonna encounter rain. We're not going to, you know, encounter consistent amounts of rain. And it wasn't like one week. It was like eight nine days. Really flooded out land crops and even on the water. We usually do about, you know, eight bushels a day and we're doing a half a dozen craft. Yeah. Those that's so what happens with the water is just all the run off. Or what what or do the crabs like go deeper when it rains, or what what how does that affect the crabs crabs? Do go deeper. They bury themselves in the sand. Crabs very delicate. Chris they station. So any tap of on the top of the bay, especially Chesapeake Bay they run. And they hide into all of that rain. That's consistently hitting the top of the bay. Is, you know, alarming damn to to be like, hey, this is not good. And then you know, it could be a number of things to them. It could be a water craft coming over top. It could be somebody that fishing over topic. It'd be you know, a tanker. So they are very they're very sort of like take Lewis when it comes to things that are touching on top of the bay. And so they're you know, they run they scare just like. Just like any anything else? They get a free element. But the run off the it's it's a combination of things of water runoff. The combination of cumulation and water directly hitting bay. And and it, you know, it the bay is sort of contained so it has it's, you know, tributaries in outlets, but those tributaries and outlets are, but so big, and they are but housing development. Water levels rise at that point. And so they're rising levels of a lot of houses. And so now should closer as we call the upper shore like sows very area like Smith island Kenjiro sound. They are like a lot of the houses are about to come under water, so employment is, you know, families on the Chesapeake in upper shore have exp have been experiencing flooding for some years now. And you know, what what army corps of engineers, do then to help out those families water families that have been living there for years businesses in there for you. You know, businesses are. So that's a significant economic impact as well as social impact too. Residents in the focus area. Right. So has the water level. I mean is this sort of climate change thing that the water level is increasing already even before all this flooding. I mean, and this is not just to be clear. It's this isn't Florence right? This was not Florence wasn't her. Yeah. This is Florence. This is national, you know, natural parent. And anything in addition to that. So like Florence, you know, rain than consecutive that. You know, attributes to that it, you know, it it adds to that already rising water already rising Nitin those factors were were not there, so missile, and and folks, and Chris film, Maryland, they have been experiencing water coming at them. I wanna say for the last six or seven years or so. Yeah. So so so the new phenomenon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's new, but it is in you know, like I didn't just happen because of an extreme events. I guess is what I'm saying. So are is there talk of relocating people along the Chesapeake Bay because of all this. Conversations. But as as we all know conversation that talk about or lead to imminent, domain, Ben from the government, and right now, we haven't we, you know, we haven't heard anything from the government, Maryland eight government that is the army corps of engineers have been engaged with the communities. They have been doing quote, unquote study. He was easel. And I totally get it. I totally in. But at the same time water will be rising families will be forced to have to act. And so one of the government studies initial for ten years, right? It's too late for the people. All right, if they're already flooded decling will be displaced, and it'll be another, you know, water tributary, but. Unfortunate for folks that you know. Displaced and nowhere to go. And there's no plan. So hopefully, the army corps of engineers have some creative and innovative. Able to give some turnkey solutions to folks at home anymore that and that's all we know that the army corps of engineers are engaged, and we hope and I stress hope that the fund some little solution for so I'm you're such a visionary person. And we've been talking about you are, and you know, we've been talking about resiliency and business models and some of the things that you've been doing are designed to do that. So one of the things that I think this this is kind of an extreme example because of the fragility and uniqueness of the Chesapeake Bay is a basis for your business. It's hard to replicate that geographically right, but but I talked to people about about farming in age of climate variability. And I I e. Even here in the midwest. We've we've had a terribly rainy this southern part of Wisconsin is also headed terribly rainy summer, and you know, when people are starting out there farms, and they they wanna be, hyper local, and, you know, serve local customers, and I say, well, what are you gonna do in a world where you don't know from one year in an ex what's going to be going on. And if you are bigger, I really think you want to build an air, even if you're smaller building a bit of geographical diversity diversification right by having some products that are coming from some other food sheds in a way or certainly different climate zones. Right. And that could be like it was Ponson. It's not there we probably we have like three climate zones in our state. So it's not like even would have to leave Wisconsin. So have you been thinking about stuff like that? So we have been looking to scale to the entire Chesapeake foodshare and so. Jesse pollution on two hundred fifty miles or the seven states parts of New York, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, DC junior. Man, what what we focused on was small farms skill goes, if knows more farms have excess of products we can't buy from them, and then bring in process two of our facility man and give them a profit for their of worth their product. So win win for both. What we do. What we did was. We said, well, that's gonna cost that's gonna be, you know, very expensive to do because we're gonna have we're gonna trucks dancing. Dan, labor, the a bunch of labor intensive expenses. It's sort of carry this part of Skillet though, the out, and what we did was we figured out that if we started providing share draft check if we started providing share drafts age Cal, and we actually build and own the Federal Credit in we can absorb a lot of those costs. Well. Keep keep those profits running into the nonprofit. And so we started the community Development Corporation called Chesapeake free shit develop a corporation, which solely is that purpose to expand the logistics the management of scaling up to farm fresh produce from farmers in those seven chest cruise ship states. Yeah. It's it's very written to he started with two to folks identify two-three phones, any state and tried it out. We retested are poces, and it's working. And so, you know, all we can do now is continue to refined. What's not working almost like an out them or a beta on the map where that a map or at? The app is always improving it 'cause they right always. But you're you have the back in team. That's always virus. Protection software. All these. You know, they are in creative innovative in how we can improve. That's the protest that we're taking. How can we better pre volatile? So that we can do we can yield maximum profit. And we don't you know, again, we've that's that's separate from your business. Right. I mean from your hobby. It's it's it's it's tied into the the profit side of the how the non-profit side of how I got it cool. And so and so with the nonprofit we wanted to do was because in in a lot of the areas that we were supplying it was low income parliament, not just Lincoln but rule so you. Americans whites. You know, you still everyone in them graphic chain at were you know, that were suffering from lack of food healthy options available options, and so be wanted to to be more than just provide food. You said food can be the cows, which we provide a number of social economic resources because if if we feel person then we're able to call them Reagan with the how because we have their tension. And that involves you know, getting data talking to our residents in the areas that we serve and so that's what we've been doing figuring out. What would what would get you to purchase more locally sourced? What we choose to invest in more local farms, and so folks, the the major trend that. We found out was excellent. Interesting. If oaks have you know, access to a fresh feed market on a transportation route public transportation route folks were more likely to climb to patronize purchasing from that source. We're trying to do to to solve that problem for rural areas as well as urban areas in it is working, but it's working because we had the knowledge from the food finances, the two that you provided the that that able to let us know we're going to far or we're going to slow or you know. Coasting coats. So we don't wanna put a number of product or you don't want to put farmers on your supply chain that don't have. Resemblance to the population. And what your survey of them ran democratic won't you serve. So a lot of people. Get mad at me because I say you can't serve profile people that can't find chicken or right book being being on their table. Right. Well, no, I get it. I mean, we all eat what we'd like, you know. It's culturally appropriate to us. Right. I and yeah, we all do that. So it makes sense. So that that has been a response to this. And it's helping with the geographic distribution of what you're doing. Right. So is that helped the overall organization this year when you had so many local the rain locally? Yes. Is hoping lot? Also, the big the big takeaway from that. We'll be was it's timing wing. Buttle stir access it in the trucks or in the in the warehouses. And so you're able to you know, really meticulously look at your purchase orders. They this is what we need. This is, you know, not only need we can cut back some days. So you're more into to sort of you know, the. The. Not wasteful in spending organ products. Yeah. I think. A lot of pools in the bag. I say. And again, you know, I hate to be two of finance institute horri-. But if you don't have those tools, you know, it'd be lost. So having again having those that the finances the two Kayla's he'll help us exponentially. Well, I'm I'm super glad to hear that. I mean, and what's interesting in which to me about what you just said about what you've been doing is is is it's like the roll up the sleeves not very glamorous stuff. Right. Like figuring out what you have too much of what you don't have enough of making good decisions about purchasing Beckett in you know, flow through the warehouse. And you know, they're kind of operation stuff. That's not very glamorous is not what people typically talk about. But it is actually what right. What makes the business work or not work? And it goes up to your bottom line like. You see a lot of product that's going out the door, or it's being you know, discontinued because of waste or is just sitting like you really can like sort of fest. What do I need to do in order to mitigate this liability or mitigate risk? One of one of the things that we did was we went back to like we went back to school. You know, take an extent involved, you know, how to diversify or how to pasteurize crab meat. So we had a bunch of crap. Arts forever over and so right. Like, what do we do this harsh? We're always at least four or five push away. And so we got introduced to pasteurization and some passenger Nathan allows us and that crap product sit on the show for about eighteen months and so. Wow. That cover, you know, a lot of your bottom line because you have money that's the show for eighteen months. We we wasted. No product. No crab shell product this year. And we save everything. And we of the three thousand five hundred cases that we we process may factored reprocessed million cases left. My that's amazing. Well. Well, and I like that too. And chefs like that too because it's not so urgent for them to deal with it. Either. Yeah. Well, it's also it's also knowing you number so Ryan, how many cases are being so to this market that market or this particular restaurant. So you have to do the numbers again, you know, whether changes a lot if the brain. Thunderstorm in a lot of people aren't going to the restaurant. Eat crap takes more folks are inclined to stay home. So right are people going into the supermarkets in, and it is your product in the supermarket with you know, they even though they having a craving of a crab cake, and they can't go to their favorite seafood restaurant that survey that he can they get into the grocery store in the. In the other. That's where we are now in our thinking, and that's why we moved to diversification, and sort of value added processing 'cause you know, we had a lot of a lot of the commodity product. But my product was being wasted. But a lot of that commodity product being wasted also impacted your bottom line. And so, you know, that meant bait that we needed cages, you know, it really showed it difference. And so that pasteurization course really helped so diversification but education leads to profitability in my. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a great great segue into what do you see coming for you guys in the Sabin next year? In year, we plan to do some collaborative partnerships, and I know collaborative partnerships is. That were in the competitive food industry. And so what we have is. We have a lot of we have a lot of emerging scoot, young food or new entrepreneurs that may be old or baby boomer generation that retired. And said, you know, what I'm take my stab into artisanal cheeses are typical foods. And so what we're doing is building out a platform food platform to accommodate those new new and emerging businesses to actually sell their product are the online more in our retail storefront. And so we are building out of space. So that we can retail local food local produce local artisanal things inside the market as well as deliver them online. So we that's in our future as well as a community Development Corporation. So the nonprofit our aunt of of. Of our business. So that you know, the process that we make from the for profit can then go into the nonprofits MAC, mission and social impact mission is touched the communities in which we serve within the Chesapeake share. And so, you know, being the branch in Maryland and having its or being the rooted tree in Maryland and having our branches stem out. Maryland throughout the Chesapeake Fouchet is where we're looking to go. So. We're looking to put more suppliers on those branches of our Jane, we're looking for more. You know, farmers young farmers version businesses folks that think outside of the box in our creative. And so we are taking several different models and trying them and working out. I'm back at the university of Maryland college park at their institute of applied agriculture and at the recommendation of terra. Because if you really want to get if you really wanna skill up, you have to have that access to those resources that will allow you to scale up in the best way to do that getting with the research university. That's in the food space that will that will be able to push himself, the university of Rayleigh student apply has introduced h u a lot of resources that I can tap into as a student and as an entrepreneur to help me build out the food up. And so they're sending us up to New York at the end of October two book, some entrepreneurs some finances angel investors to see how they started. We'll see how they see how they did it. And so that's sort of what's enough uter, you know, building out this platform storefront as well as online platform for emerging businesses building commuters corporation that it can serve the needs. And all the problems of the community which serve and containing on the passes discovery education and out Shinn's. No. And that's all treated to finance. They you guys out. There have really the fire to a lot of young people that was in that class. And so. I can't take it for granted that that that session. You know? We had that session. Eke? Got a lot of people don't understand the value of information and in that class week. We definitely understood that you're familiar we're still talking about it a monthly. Well, that's that's an incredible amount of development to be going on. Are you going to be building out kind of? Management team to help with all this is that part of it becoming you're gonna be building the creative management team. So. Pitching. We're thinking outside of the box thinking of the Boston terms of whether those positions needed for a new diverging food hub or business or a farm can table business because all traditional president vice chief financial officer, it doesn't work for our generation. The it's old style GIC. And so, you know, we're looking at a structure that soups graphic are are farmers are consumers Fisher. No yet. The are looking at that. It's only two of us now, but we won't be scaled up to four for the next painting for next planting season, but it won't be your traditional roles. So and your your for profit is that is it a structured as a cooperative my right about that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Twenty one k or the. Yeah. And then they have the the nonprofit. Yeah. Because I think I think one of the things that's interesting me about cooperatives is on is because of the work that the that the members of the cooperative tend to do the organization itself can be a lot leaner in the beginning. I think it's a one of the one of the real advantages of cooperatives on and until they get bigger, and then people get tired of it and realize they really need, you know, permanent staff. Right. When you get bigger. But yeah. Perfect model. Meaning Sally is the first model they are. They are the model for FOX's Newman's Own faith. Another model that sort of inspired us to be. Yeah. Well to be the the four profit side where we continue to to custody development of what they want. So like the products that we generate profit would tackle the needs of the community. So already is it's housing is in. If it's financial the community Development Corporation will handle that. Because we don't just wanna seem like the big box stores that just set up in communities and expect them to come into their doors in that give back. No, we wanna be able to set up stay there and then carry and transcend amongst generation so like Proctor and gamble Johnson. Las they started out as a family company, and then they're multinational company, but they in over time. We wanna be able to take a strategies for model such as Johnson Johnson and other foods for rations like Newman's Own organic cloudy and incorporate that into our new emerging her mom, so no, we're not the traditional structure of of what corporation is more. Food hub or market? So very different very creative. And and and so inside like the difference that I'll point out is our kitchen commercial kitchen where food truck in. There's would be able to prep their stuff their their their product daily product as well as store, but it's also a place where folks in the community can also come and get hot fresh hot fresh meals from the produce the livestock that we've broken down into added value meals. We call it. An added value kitchen value kitchen, cool, and are you thinking about where are you thinking of locating that? So they'll be impressed imprint areas in the flu in African American Kellyanne in the state of Maryland suburb of Washington DC, but I'll go it also suffered from a lot of high health a lot of high negative health disparity. And so we want to be in that areas. So that we can start tackling some of those disparities. And then branch out. Well, I'm exhausted. Just listen into all this stuff. You're working on top. And on top of all that you just had a baby. So I I'm like in off everything you're doing and exactly. So we're we are going to stay in touch because I'm sure there's going to be a lot of new things happening. If we check in with you again next year. So I'm yeah. Yeah. So I'm I'm so glad you could find the time to get on the show with us and share your journey. It's fascinating. And I will be talking and we'll be talking again soon. Yes. Thank you for your time. Really? Oh. Yeah. Thank you so much for all. Your kind words, it's it's inspiring for me to come and train people like you. And because it's people like you are going to change the world forbid for the better here. So you keep working and we'll stay in touch. Okay. Good car, right? Yep. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening. You can get more podcasts by subscribing on I tunes or your favorite podcast app. And you can learn more about it will alpha by visiting our website at edible alpha dot org.

Maryland community Development Corporat Chesapeake Bay Wisconsin Florence Washington Chris army corps of engineers Tara Johnson New York UCF Ron Williams Pete Newman Bayfield farmers cooperative Chesapeake Christner CeCe university of Maryland college
62 | Michele Gelfand on Tight and Loose Societies and People

Sean Carroll's Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas

1:12:16 hr | 1 year ago

62 | Michele Gelfand on Tight and Loose Societies and People

"Hello everyone and welcome to the mindscape podcast. I'm your host sean carroll and if you've ever spent time in different cities throughout the united states or anywhere in the world as long as they are very very very different kinds of cities. You may have noticed that different cities have different attitudes towards things like jaywalking right like you need to get across the street. Are you at the corner. You have the light to cetera in some cities who cares what the stoplight is saying who cares where you argue just across the street when the road is clear in other cities people we'll wait. They're very very politely not even imagining that it's the right thing to do to cross before the stop light says so so why is that how shall we understand these differences. This is in behavior my guest today michelle gelfond. She's a cultural psychologist distinguished university professor at the university of maryland college park and she's thinking talking about not just individual people but how entire cultures differ in their attitudes toward cultural norms. She's written a book called rulemakers rule-breakers how tight and loose cultures wire our world and the claim is that you can classify different cultures into whether they are tight that say everyone everyone observes the norms very very carefully or whether they are loose there are norms but we break him a little bit and of course there's many different ways you can classify different cultures but the idea is that this particular dimension is especially informative that this tightness looseness access spectrum if you like really tells us of lot about different cultures and how they behave so michelle and i talk about why this is true why there are tight cultures why there are loose cultures what kinds of places races have different ones and in the real world which cultures are tight and our lose and she gives her opinion that in fact the best place to be is inbetween both tightness and looseness have have their purposes remember that we have a website for the podcast preposterous universe dot com slash podcast. There's a patriotic that you can support us where you get it monthly. Ask me anything episodes as well as ad free versions of every episode so with that. Let's go michelle. Welcome to the mindscape podcast great to be here so you have this wonderful new book out note that i have to say it struck me. Even though you're a psychologist it struck me as something of physicists would want to right. It's kind of like a grand unified theory the <hes> of certain aspects of people and cultures. Why don't you just give us the subway pitch for what you're trying to say in that book sure you know i'm a cross is cultural psychologists so i'm interested in understanding how people around the world vary through like you said sort of parsimonious principles and oftentimes we think about culture in terms terms of rather superficial characteristics red versus blue or east versus west or rich versus poor and i wanted to know. Is there a deeper code driving our behavior that can help us understand you stand not just modern nations states but also cultures that existed thousands of years ago and so as a cross culture psychologists. I set out to try to understand understand these cultural codes and what i discovered is that there is a pretty simple principle that explains a lot of variation around the world and that's what i call tight versus loose cultures insurers and it all has to do with how strictly groups adhere to social norms. Some groups are really tight. They have very strong norms little tolerance for deviance. Another groups are much more lax and they're much more permissive and i said out over the last twenty years to understand. Why did these differences evolve. Is there any rationale for why groups evolved to be tightened loose and what are the trade offs that they confer two human groups where the positives what are the liabilities and what are the conflicts that arise when people from titan loose cultures tend to meet and how can it be mitigated so that's the kind of gist and i get into lots of details lots of details. I bet it's such a wonderfully evocative language tight and loses soon as you say those not. Only people guess what you mean by that but they can probably even do a pretty good job of guessing which cultures fit which categorization but nevertheless why can you tell us what you mean. What are the what are the characteristics of tight culture versus a loose one yeah so when we first set out to study this we want to see can we measure this construct because that's really keates and he scientific endeavor and so we studied over thirty nations around the world with the idea that we can place cultures on a continuum from tight too loose and of course recognizing denying that each culture has tighten loose elements that we still like we can do with personalities still kind of understand what the general trends are and clearly ensure enough. We found that colt people around the world agreed on the strictness or the permissiveness of the norms in their cultures cultures like japan and singapore germany and austria tended aveer tight and cultures like new zealand and brazil and greece and then other ones tend to veer loose and we can also see that this construct tight and loose actually can and help us understand variation across the fifty states rather than red versus blue. We have a new map of what states are titan loose. We can also see it can help us understand organizations sion's through same lens as well as even own households and even our own selves in terms of their penchant for rules and punishments when we violate them so it's a pretty broad contract and we started at the national level but then as i said we kind of zoomed in two different levels of analysis to see is there any himal aji that we can see any similarity clarity in terms of this construct and how it operates at different levels and it's interesting that you mentioned that people recognize it in themselves. They it's not that they're in denial about this but they oh yeah no. We're pretty rule obeying culture well. You know it's really interesting because one of the reasons i'm so passionate about staying culture is that it's really a puzzle muscle because it's omnipresent. It's around us all the time. We're following rules all the time from the time. We wake up to the go to sleep but it's rather invisible. We don't recognize that cultures all around us. It's like the story about two fish swimming along one fish says to the other. Hey how's the how's the water and they say wait a second. What's i water fish. The simple idea here is that often is it's the things that are around us constantly that we have a hard time recognizing and cultures exactly that puzzle we don't think about culture so if you can ask people about it but they don't tend to think about it and they certainly judge other cultures for being really different than them without understanding strengths and the liabilities that titan loose gives us as humans and how do we. I'm sure there's a lot of different directions or axes on which we can judge different different cultures the amount of individuality or just you know the economic situation in different countries so how'd you disentangle all these various effects. You're really making a non trivial claim that this tightness looseness distinction is one of the most important ones in distinguishing between different cultures yeah. That's a really good question. I want want to back up and say actually there's lots of ways that cultures vary titan lose not the only one like you mentioned how collectivistic or group oriented we are family oriented versus individualistic individualist is another key metric on which we can place countries and groups and in fact. I worked a lot on that contract with harry tremendous. <hes> who's one of the founders of cross cultural psychology. Oh gee there's there's other dimensions also culture in terms of hierarchy or egalitarianism and you said there's also economic wealth and differences and other structural variables but in what we wanted to do in the science paper that was looking at this at the national level is to see can we see that it's related to but distinct from these contracts trucks and sure enough it is <hes> and so for example tight-loose has no direct relationship as linear relationship with g._d._p. There are cultures that are very rich and that are tight and very poor that are tight and vice versa on looseness and same with individual collectivism for many years in my field including me. I'm pretty guilty. This we thought we kinda thought collectivism individualism the only way to really think about cultural differences and that's because we only comparing east and west which happened to be confounded on individualism collectivism collectivism and tightness so for example <hes> we know that in my data and this is across different levels tightness is tends to be possibly correlated with collectivism but there's lots of <hes> context where they're actually you can find off diagonals of tight cultures <hes> that are very individualistic <hes> and besides privacy these these are places like switzerland austria germany and there's lots of collectivistic group oriented cultures that her rather loose for example brazil is one of the cultures that values per family quite a bit same with spain but they tend to have looser norm so in fact we're trying to unconfined differences because that way we can understand <hes> and broader cultural toolkit to really understand it predict cultural differences much better and maybe a i guess i had the advantage of having looked at your book and so forth so for the listeners out there. What would they anticipate if they visited a tight or loose culture like what are some of the characteristics heuristic you would notice right away or is it things that you wouldn't notice right away. We'd have to discover through interactions well. I think that these are kind of patterns. You start to look discover as as you're studying many many many different countries and see these kinds of regularities that doesn't mean that there's one to one relationship with these what we found is very sort of predictable tradeoff trade-off between order an openness and that is to say that culture have a lot of order. They have more monitoring to have less crime. They have more uniformity and more synchrony so for example they have according to our own analyses people who wear more similar clothing who drive more similar cars even in some of our analyses these are kind of strange unobtrusive indicators but if you go to a country and you see that the city clocks have pretty much the same time on them title context and because we could correlate yeah you could go to a a loser context. I was in italy actually last year with my kids and husband and you. I know a lot of the city clocks. They say something completely different. You're not entirely sure what time it is and so this is another example of synchrony uniformity and it turns out that's really important horton tight cultures and i'll talk about that a little bit later but also tie cultures have order when it comes to self control so the social orders mirror mirrored in really self control all and order within the individual find that there's less debt less alcoholism even less obesity in context are tighter because people are following rules a lot more and they're used to actually controlling their impulses much more a wider range of context and that's all to say that loose cultures have disadvantage order they have more crime they have less synchrony informative formative and they have a host of self-regulation failures <hes> but loose cultures as i mentioned <hes> they corner the market on openness so they we could see from from our data that they have more tolerance people who are different whether it's people from different races religions creeds in my day sent research assistants around the world wearing fake fake ward's. I bought them on the internet for them or they were wearing tattoos on their face or they were just wearing. They're playing face and i sent them around to their home. Countries in twenty countries and simply wanted good to see how were they treated in city streets. They kind of deviant these individuals and sure enough in the looser cultures they were much more likely to be helped when they ask for directions or ask for help and city store's competitive title cultures where looking different is dangerous as it enters a lot of uncertainty also a loose cultures are more creative according to a lot of different studies and they're more open to change <hes> and so again that just speaks to this kind of order versus openess tradeoff tight cultures suffer on these indicators. They're much more so <hes> ethnocentric they're much much more cultural inertia and they also have less creativity but again each contexts contexts strengths as the others liabilities and so there's no when people say which is better. It really depends on the criterion that you're interested in yeah. I mean putting aside which is better. It does sound like there's going to be a connection here. Between political orientation right at least in the sort of standard dictionary definitions of liberal and conservative is it fair fair to associate liberalness with loose cultures and tightness would more conservative ones. I think that it's really a question of these labels. Make sense a lot in the u._s. Is particularly because they change kind of meetings in different countries but there are really operating at different levels of analysis so you can think about that. There might be liberals. Living in tighter states like in kansas were in north carolina which tends to veer tighter or texas but there's and there's also conservatives that live in looser states like new york work or california <hes> but nevertheless they kind of make each other up in the sense that liberals tend to like to have weaker norms are more whoa support <hes> norms that are looser and likewise with conservative so they really kind of <hes> operate at different levels of analysis one is at the social level at social norms. The other is at the individual level another way to think about it also is that we constantly as individuals navigate a tight and loose contexts all the time and we went call all those contexts conservative or liberal for example ibrar. What what would you say. Is that tighter loose. I would say libraries are pretty tight yeah exactly so often wanted to go into libraries singing dancing word of a colloquium mike. I always wanted to do this like giving a talk at a major university like let's add came out to your university and i'm giving a talk and i started like singing dancing and breaking out some bourbon. Let people think that's really weird because that's a really tight. Situation is a more restriction of range of what's permissible missile. <hes> and people kind of give feedback. If you're doing weird things in weaker situations weaker cultures that you know there's a wider range of of pro of behaviors that are tolerated so going public park and so forth party these are contexts that are looser that the sociologist goffman identified years ago <hes> and so those are context where we again. We assumed we navigate them. Constantly were effortlessly able to switch between tight and loose context like a job. Bob interviewer funeral will veering tight versus other situations with great ease. We don't even recognize it but of course around the world situations vary tremendously the same same situation as what we found in the science paper even a public park in pakistan is much tighter for example has has more restricted range of behavior than in the united states <hes> and so it's really fascinating that it's a universal dimension that we deal with every day and but we also they vary a lot across cultures pictures and that's where we start to realize that you know we can have a lot of conflict when we travel abroad and use our own kind of lends to see the world culture as i said it's invisible and even the ancient philosopher heroic to said you know we're all pretty ethnocentric. He noticed this in his travels in the book histories and and which we don't expect that things will air that much and when we we start seeing these differences special tight lose <hes> we could be pretty judgmental so that's why it's really to help us understand the contract and you know i. I give one example that i found really strange. We know when i was traveling to singapore. I don't know if you've ever been there before only junior it but it's the efforts beautiful right. It's gorgeous but you know it. Singapore's called the fine country <hes> because you can get punished for so many different things including eating not flushing the toilet in public settings chewing gum is also illegal bringing large quantities come into the country is illegal unless you're using it for medicinal purposes. Even walking in front of your curtains naked is actually something you could be fined for. Actually i checked out on the statute to make sure that's not fake news and you know all these things seemed so ridiculous ridiculous but actually what i discovered in terms of the why these differences might make sentences that titan lose cultures tend to evolve for good reasons and and one of the most important reasons they vary on is how much threat that they've had <hes> throughout their histories and that threat could be there from mother nature like think chronic natural disasters like japan has had or it could be population density <hes> how many people per square mile around you could cause a lot of chaos. That's singapore's earlier example twenty twenty p twenty thousand people per square mile compared to new zealand that has like thirty people per square mile and more sheep per capita than people and also invasions. It's another thing we thought about human made threats so countries over the last hundred years we measured this that have had to face potential invasions on their territory also tend to type and the logic is pretty simple. When you have a lot of collective threat you need strong rules to coordinate to survive and in context where you're gus threat you can afford to have much more permissiveness because you don't need to coordinate as much and that principal turns out to help explain for example this gum banned in singapore which from american the point of view sounds pretty ridiculous but apparently people were chewing gum and it's very tight space where people feel like. They're living elevator a lot of their life. This is so crowded and and people were throwing their gum on the ground and it was causing total mess in singapore. This is the way eighties and it was causing trains to malfunction because they have gum was getting caught in sensors and elevators and lee kuan yew at the time just said hey guys we're just gonna have to ban this tasty treat in the place where this don't many miles per capita and and and so it makes sense that that works in certain context not all cultural differences of course make sense but there's a really important principle that relates relates to tightness and looseness that relate threat that i've found across nations across states across social class organizations that helps us to make sense sense of these differences with a little bit more empathy and maybe also just different situations within the same culture. I can imagine that the threat level is a lot higher if you're in the military than if you're an undergraduate at university corresponding tightness looseness distinction there too yeah exactly you know it's funny because when <hes> organizations like the military or airlines or nuclear power plants or hospitals you know these are places that need rules because they need to coordinate data lot as compared to start ups or design and when the whole fiasco came out about united which you know arguably people were following rules too much in this context but nevertheless i wrote about this united context airlines in general that you want a lot of rules you don't want people just making all sorts of weird decisions and tom but nevertheless and talk about this a little later because there's no question that cultures can get exceedingly tight or exceedingly glues and that has a lot of problems and then we have to start to start negotiating culture which is an exciting idea because we invented worms and we adapted as species in terms of the strength of norms with you know a lot of ways remarkably well to our ecology but sometimes we can get out of whack and become too tight or too and that's where we have a lot of problems. I i spend a lot of time in the book toward the and talking about how we can harness the power of social norms to have a better planet when that kind of miscalculation happens yeah before before before i forget there is something that zoomed by that i want to home in on new york is an example of a relatively loose culture as far as states in the united states are concerned right eight and a place like north carolina is tighter. So are you gonna tell me maybe this is true that the clocks out in public spaces in new york city or more likely to agree with each other and with the right universal time than the clocks in charlotte north carolina while no new york because loose so clocks ten less likely. I said that wrong yeah. Yes that's right although i haven't studied clocks within the context of the u._s. This was internationally and and but that we really exciting to do that kind of work what you're making a prediction does the test of all right that's right. It's testable and we can also make a prediction by looking what people wear and what they drive do they do. They tend to be more similar more synchrony on these contexts. Are there more security. Commerce is the more monitoring per or capita with that helps to keep people kind of behaving themselves. <hes> i can tell you that <hes> you know i've had my experience in the south as a new yorker from new york originally and in our our data analysis we could see that blue states tend to be much more rude than tight states which are more polite tight states tend to be our data a little more boring and blue states had to be more interesting according to the date of recreational option so there is this tradeoff again at the state level <hes> but i i remember driving down down to south carolina and was with my then boyfriend now husband and and someone cut us off maybe accidentally but you know basically flip them off. Which new york is almost like a friendly gesture sure and this this actually turned. This was such an insult. I mean the south is an honor culture. In general as my colleague dove cohen would say and honor cultures tend to be pretty tight right not all tight coaches are article but ana cultures have a lot of regulations around social etiquette and around norms for politeness and behavior so that even tiny little signal of go flipping someone off the bird turned into a car chase on the highway that was really very aggravating and really i was terrified to say the least <hes> i'm not going to recommend to study that behavior but what's fascinating but new york and i want to point this out as an exception is that you know people i say say look new york was really highly. Densely populated you just said that you know that would veer <hes> you know kind of foster tightness and there's factors that ecorse override override this general principle and one of them has to do with diversity so when you have a lot of diversity like new york has and has for decades and we've actually tracked the level of diversity versity in fifty states over the last hundred years when you have a lot of diversity you it's harder degree on norms for behavior. You have to have more tolerance for multiple ways of doing wing things <hes> and also when you have a context where there's a lot of anonymity where people were not watching what people are doing new york. You know there's there's a lot of anonymity a lot of mobility ability where people coming and going that makes it harder to have like a gossip mill like you might find <hes> in the south in small towns and so forth that would kind of make people people feel more like they have to be on their best behavior and so those things like anonymity and mobility diversity a really also put they really are levers levers toward looseness so i think it's important anytime we try to analyze context is to kind of look at it. Generally it's ecology it structure and then try to make predictions based on multiple factors because that way we can be more accurate in our estimations. Let me pause just a second to talk about. The great courses plus. This is an online streaming service that brings you courses from the great courses. You know that i've done courses for the great courses but you can get all sorts of different things from einstein to exo planets to negotiating chess. Whatever your interests are you can get college level instruction from the best lectures and professors out there. All the professors are highly vetted. They know their stuff and they're also very very good at presenting it. Remember back just a couple of weeks ago. We had a podcast with indra vis contests on music and the brain inter has done a wonderful chorus called brain myths exploded lessons from neuroscience so if you wanna dig in more deeply to how the brain works works that chorus can be a wonderful way to get that done so you can start with a great courses plus today. We have an offer for mindscape listeners. A full free month of unlimited needed access if you sign up today using this special u._r._l. The great courses plus dot com slash mindscape. That's the great courses is plus. Don't forget the plus dot com slash mindscape start your intellectual journey today that actually clear something up because i was going to ask about wrote rather than a state-by-state analysis. Is there an urban versus rural kind of divide and i might have guessed on the basis of the singapore example that urban environments would be <music> tighter but they also would tend to be more diverse so there's a obvious difference between new york or los angeles versus a place like singapore which i don't know the demographics graphics perfectly but i'm betting less diverse yeah that's right. I mean these are really important questions because again we can analyze singapore and look at it. It's a place that is entirely urban. There's nowhere where to go in singapore. It's a city there's also three different ethnic groups there and so when you are if you're really in context where you can't go anywhere it's hugely densely populated it makes a lot of sense to have strict rules to help people coordinate when you said in his autobiography he looked at their ecology in terms of lack of arable land and in terms of high density in terms of you can't escape this place so we'd better have rules that help us coordinate and to get along. There's other things that you can look got to predict tightness in urban areas because again i think in general urban areas should be looser 'cause they tend to be more diverse and they tend to have more mobility but not always for example in a recent paper in the proceedings for the national academy of sciences mapping the thirty plus provinces china on tight-loose using our measures. They found some super interesting findings where the urban areas were way tighter than the rural areas in china and that's because there again really densely populated. They're having an incredible influx of people from the countryside and the government was saying we have rules here. We have security cameras everywhere. We we have ways to track people's social credit store to make sure they're behaving themselves because it could be completely chaotic when you have when you're away from beijing you're far away from the kind of big brothers is is upon you you can be looser in china and so there's lots of different factors that predict tight loose within a nation that this work is is really just starting up that in ten twenty years we'll have even more fine grain predictions around contacts based on all of these multitude of factors. A lot of a lot of this distinction between titan loose relates to how closely we follow social norms. You've said which is by definition <hes> social collective collective collective kind of phenomenon but the traits that you're mentioning do seem like they might have reflections and just individual psychology or they're tight and loose people. Is that a personality type. That's such a good question and you know i've been kind of wary of using the same labels to talk about individuals as you do about cultures we did collectivism and it caused a lot of levels of analysis problems that how do you think about collectivist individuals and whole collectivist nation so i think about it as what individual level attributes are needed or cultivated to fit into and support the strength of norms because you can't have strong norms that people who are behaving in ways that support them are likewise. You can't have weaker norms like when you're you know <hes> out in public parks without having individual attributes that fit into them and make them up and so so just for example. I would say sort of tight mindset. That's cultivated and i found this evidence for this with certain measures. Is that entire cultures. You have to socialize your kids. It's to follow rules to be have more self monitoring to kind of notice rules and monitor your impulses in order to fit into them in loser culture. You don't need to have those skills skills as much. You could be low self monitors. We know a lot of these people around. Does she would do weird things. All the time notice it in loose cultures you can have less impulse control because 'cause you're not afraid of punishments was tied culture. You have to monitor impulses in china and japan and other tighter cultures. You're from a very young age that you should be monitoring impulses and and being aware of how you're fitting in to the norms on the flipside lose cultures. You need to have a lot of tolerance for ambiguity because you're going to enter a what a weird situations where people doing strange stuff so you have to be tolerant of those differences so we've measured these kinds of things things like self monitoring or impulse control how much you're trying to prevent making mistakes. How much do you like structure orc. Do you like ambiguity and all these things at the individual level through what we call l. Multilevel analysis are connected to the larger cultural context in general even though all cultures have people that have variation on these attributes clearly. There's a connection with how we're training our kids to be good cultural citizens in terms of psychological attributes so i would say that i have when i was thinking i have a tight loose mindset set quiz that you can take on my website <hes> that again kind of measuring these attributes of self-monitoring impulse control prevention focused need for order <hes> actually just one metaphor that comes from the muppets olympic use this term order versus chaos muppets so there's like you know ernie and birds and cookie cookie monster and animal and they vary really predictably on how much they like rules versus how much they're doing crazy things and that's one way to think about it the individual level what was it yes each of us do have a default setting we can as i mentioned que- adapt to situations very easily when they changed norms about you know you can imagine the conflicts that happened. I've you're you're sort of looser. My husband's a lawyer he veers tighter <hes> and we have to negotiate this a lot even with our kids so that's a whole other story but that's what kind of a long answer to your question that it's i would say yes the individual level we can find differences but i would say that they're more about mindsets than about some personality one personality -ality difference well and there must be sort of nature versus nurture question here as well. I mean how much does just having to be happening to be born in a tighter lose culture affect affect your personality traits that are relevant here as you're growing up. It's such a good question. I mean we don't really have data on this. We have some mm genetic evidence about what kinds of genes might be more likely to be found in context. I have a lot of ecological threat in terms of disasters offers and invasions and things like that. It's it's called a short early oil but this correlation data and now we're starting to work with some people looking at culture gene co evolution to see you know how these things reinforce each other because particularly in some context have had threat over centuries. You'd imagine that certain traits might be selected for <hes> because they're more adaptable in certain contexts at the same time i want to mention that titan lose a dynamic contracts and i was mentioning that threat threat is a big predictor of of tightness and we've measured that chronically over one hundred years i can activate threat in my laboratory whether it's about population density or pathogens or were invasions and people instantly tighten up even if it's fake you know i mean it's it's silly experiments that psychologist do. They don't last very along but we see this very clearly. The same principle you could see very quickly and people can tighten up when they feel threat whether real or imagined and what's fascinating fascinating we found this and some are computational models is that when you reduce threat it takes much longer for people to loosen up this kind of this asymmetry that we see in multiple multiple models that won't try to model this with artificial people. We could see that it takes much longer to go from tight to lose them. From gustav type interesting tightness can be activated very easily in takes time to calm down once again exactly i think there's something about you know human nature h er around being kind of prevention focus or risk avoidance when you're <hes> but it's a really interesting question now we're trying to design experiments to figure out how d so you loosen up a context that's getting too tight because in tokyo tight artificially because as i mentioned we know that trade off of tight looses order openness in general and we know that when cultures are pretty tight. They're really synchronized. They have a lot of water but they start becoming more at the centric and they lose out on innovation and creativity and adaptability so we don't wanna be artificially tight and that's where i think some of the more recent were trying to do is how to how to really kind of <hes> <hes> help facilitate that in a world where while objective throughout seem to be decreasing of course we have to be vigilant but compared to hundreds of years ago go as steven pinker would argue. We seem to be feeling more threatens. You know just based on social media based on threat rhetoric that we see are propagated through our leaders through the internet <hes> by the way we just recently created a new computational dictionary to assess threat in social social media to then track what's happening when we see a lot of threat in presidential speeches or facebook or otherwise how is that predicting in in real time changes and creativity or openness and and other things because we think that there's a lot of that big data that can be harnessed to kind of understand. The psychology jeff threatened tightness in out there in the cyber world. Am i remembering correctly. There was some experiments done with kids. I forget whether it was you who are doing doing them or just quoting them that sort of illuminated even at a very early age these differences between openness and closeness yeah. That's you know this is our. I experiment with young children with three year olds. At i'm a generalist so i'll i'll study anything if kind of if the method helps us to understand the phenomenon and we were actually in this case we're interested in <hes> cultural differences and tight-loose across different social classes and the argument that we made and we were building building on <hes> melvin cohen famous allergist wrote a book class and conformity in the late sixty s. We are arguing that the working class <hes> should be tighter because they're worried about falling into poverty and they have a lot of more threats when it comes to occupations in terms of danger or neighborhoods need require rules to help kids stay stay safe but we hadn't ever systematically looked at this across <hes> the working in upper class upper class. The argument is that they they can afford to break rules. I mean the whole country. The tree tends to be organized around break the rules and i even have these crazy children's books that are out anarchy like create anarchy for kids and actually that's good advice for people who have have a cushion who have a safety net where you can make mistakes where with oregon 'cause you don't have that because you could be really super poor living in chaos which which is actually norm lewis and then he weighs as dirk i would say so we started to look at this and the working class and middle class and i we started asking adult. What what do you think about rules. We just ask people so think about like following the rules what comes to mind breaking the rules what comes to mind and we found this really interesting pattern. It's the working class that thought. Rules is our good. They provide structure <hes> they are safe and whereas the upper class middle and upper class were like oh. It's a nuisance goody. Two shoes was associated with rules. You know what you think about when you think about middle and upper class america and we wanted to see how early these differences arise so we brought three roles into the lab and you can't exactly zac asked. What do you think rule three a you know what i mean. Even my teenagers might say that but you know we can use this paradigm actually developed by michael tomasulo developmental psychologist and it's fascinating you jason good just have kids play with a puppet so they're playing with the puppet master puppet and their befriending up at the play new games with new rules and all of a sudden maxa something kind of weird he starts violating the rules and he's announcing he's playing in the game right right but he's clearly like max norm violator suddenly and you convince can these kids and see how we act and that's exactly what myself and jesse harrington did did <hes> we. We found really interesting differences. It was the working class kids that got more upset with max the puppet when he violated the rules told him to stop they were upset about this. It get in general the upper class kids were warm. I could laugh. They were max off the hook even by age three and again when we measure parental attitudes about rules as we see that it's the working class parents who think rules are really important. Their implicit theories around rules are that they're good. They're needed their their functional so you know this. This was kind of something that's super interesting. This is start looking at this kind of developmental perspective on this we started to now design some work on neuroscience development meant to peer into the brain and to see what's happening as people are witnessing max the puppet violating rules what's happening as early as two years because we know that in later adulthood people from different title whose cultures are processing more wishes differently in the brain and we want to see how far how early can we start seeing those differences because kids really start art learning about norms and rules really really early. That's what we know from developmental psychology as even before they have language infants have been found to when they're watching puppets doing weird things they avoid them and when they watch puppets that are nice they start reaching for them so it's crazy interesting to think about us as a species you know rules those are just so important but they're not having been really studied but with their really super important. All countries need rules. You can imagine a context where there's no one's following following any rules. It'll be completely chaotic and predictable and so that's why we could see this happening so early because it's such an important aspect of our human sociology so you're telling me that all the hollywood stereotypes about rich kids who think that the rules don't apply to them are just the truth well. You know it's interesting. I think that that is probably curve linear. Actually everything's curve linear but we have the power to detect it but you think about victorian england like super super rich you know old rich and these are places that had very strict rules. We never surveyed them but i i put the college education funds on that for the kids you know and that's a very serious bad because i'm a kid college now <hes> but you know i think also like i said like super poor we think are really loose into the extent that there's there's norm homelessness and that's the working class or trying to avoid so there's probably some non linear patterns <hes> but <hes> we haven't been able to detect that yet because we don't have access to some of these samples but that's what i would speculate well you you mentioned several times the research that you've done the papers the papers that you published and so forth so just methodologically what does that it involves like. How do you study the amount of openness closeness looseness a tightness in different cultures through through space and time yeah. This is is a great question and you know i think that in any science using multiple methods is really important to be able to see if you've converging patterns just particularly and do cross culture research search the so many kind of rival hypotheses even the way you were to question translations or the person that's giving you the survey <hes> my elicit a different response find some interesting data that showed that if in china and hong kong if study was being told as you know it was funded in hong congress was funded a mainland china change people's responses sponsors like there's just very subtle ways that you can change <hes> responses in the laboratory surveys in unobtrusive observations nations across cultures. I wrote a whole paper on like just how many rival hypotheses have to rule out during cross cultural search and i think if the editor said that no one's gonna wanna do cross research search they read this paper and i said that's fine. It's just it's such an and you know i also make so many mistakes doing research and now we'll get to the anthropologist funny story i mean you'd think that i'm not schmuck been doing this for twenty five years but i still fail to anticipate how cultural will manifest itself in the method and and so in that study whereas sent students around the world with these facial warts or with the tattoos through humboldt grant and we train them in bremen germany on to go back to their home countries and it was legal ethical it was totally kosher to do these kinds of interventions wearing these crazy things in their faces but what i didn't anticipate it was that as people get back to their countries even after they were standardized they just one by one the tightest of the cultures the students they wrote me as i just can't do this as i can't bring myself to do this. I could just to embarrassing and to just to worry to do this and that's exactly what i'm studying like how i didn't anticipate. That is just ridiculous so that's just to say that i make i mode a paper about all the mistakes i've made the schmuck moves. I've made as across cultures ecologists. 'cause i want other younger scholars to realize i. It's really not easy. You don't even realize it that how easy culture becomes part of the method so anyway back to your your question was i try to use very you know lots of methods so in a you know sometimes i use surveys and i asked people to directly answer questions about the construct and about you know what they perceived to be the strength or weakness situations in their environment. What's what's permissible for example. We might ask how permissible is it to sing or dance or to burp or to eat in elevator or in a party or an library and we can then assess across countries like the range of behavior that is permissible as we could see reliably that tighter cultures they tend to say no much less permissible <hes> or we can an more recent work. We coated at niagara fay's so these are now. I hundreds of pages documents <hes> in the standard sample. It's called these are pre industrial societies. We can't ask people questions and he's context. We can observe them but luckily anthropologists apologists have detailed these societies to incredible amount of depth and we can then code. I mean i'm not i wanna say this gave me a lot of grey hair but this took several years of work to train people to actually code at nagasaki's we can code them in different domains of life because they have lots of details on socialization howard could socialize allots details on funerals sexuality on gender <hes> on legal systems and we can code those for the strength of norms and we can then see do they into a factor analysis. Is there any kind of coherence and that's exactly what we showed and remarkably other people assessed how threaten these contexts our jobs of natural resources in terms of invasions zhen's and we see very similar patterns ethnographic record and i'd say within like a minute and a half but this as i mentioned like five years this project and then that was finally under review or like i mentioned we can go out and have people interact with people in public settings where we can measure the degree of monitoring by police or as another indicator so we try data use many methods including recently i mentioned computational modeling because we want to test predictions about the evolution of this contract and that's hard to do <hes> with laboratory experiments or with single study one time cross-sectional types of data even more recently we started developing dictionaries dictionaries of tight-loose with people in linguistics where we can track over time the language people use newspapers and in books and we could see for example the u._s. over the last two hundred years and a paper. We just published a nature human behavior is actually loosened up quite a bit starting to tighten up our data but it has had a trend ronda be much looser in terms of the words people use in in common vernacular so anyway. That's a long winded sit. She added it. Just say that we've never met a method. We don't like and i love to part with some physicists. You know at some point in you know we work with biologist we work with <hes> now mathematicians and computer scientists and neuroscientists neuroscientists but i have to say we've never met a physicist collaborate with but it's not off the out of the range of possibilities but it also makes me wonder are there differences differences between academic disciplines tightness or looseness students yea. Definitely i mean my my colleague bench night. I would say that people make take the place in organizations and no doubt you know we see the people who are attracted. Certain disciplines have already different values different personality differences. People people were attracted to economics are very different than psychology <hes> and so. I think that's something we haven't studied systematically. We started to do some again kind of factor analysis. That's just a fancy way of saying simplify patterns with data with the department of labor's own at database which tracks occupation every single occupation they have on this website the knowledge skills and abilities that you need for that occupation and also the kind of work context you have in terms of what we're interested like threat threat coordination versus experimentation and we're starting to dig into that database <hes> to sort of show patterns of which occupations tend to be tighter a looser <hes> and and it makes a lotta sense the same principles can apply understanding occupations as well and it's important because you might not realize your mindset mindset might not fit with that accusation my manage. My husband is a lawyer like law firms and accounting and other types of feels where there's a lot of accountability which is a big the driver of tightness. They need to view tighter. I keep thinks i'm gonna context where this much less accountability per se i mean i feel personally accountable but there's very big differences in who's gonna fit those accusations and i think navigate it to the right balance in terms of water and openness with academia that is not found in other contexts context well but it's interesting because there are these multiple factors that come into it. I think you know me living my whole life in academic settings natural thing if you think about but if i'm thinking of a english literature major might intuitive feeling is that there's a looseness associated with that culture on the other hand. Maybe they're under threat right. I mean they they don't have as much social cachet or funding or whatever so. I'm not sure the intuition is pointing in the right direction. Yeah it's interesting interesting. I mean we haven't actually studied those contacts but i do think that we could assess these reliably and try to understand stand them. I would say academia's an interesting context in terms of what i call the goldilocks principle of tight-loose because we need to have both loose elements and title elements in our sort of toolbox in order to see the academia and we need to feel that we need to have looseness in the sense that we that helps us to create ideas but we need to have some tightness because that helps us to implement those ideas and to scale up and to actually get them you know to actually be go go to fruition and so i think actually academic life involves fundamentally both tight and loose mindsets and in fact in business the most innovative avait companies and the most innovative countries we found again have a balance of titan loose because some loose cultures and companies can really do great at creativity tippety but then they suffer when they try to implement things like think tesla like they i wrote an ad recently like that is a great place and he's brilliant but like they need some tightness to scale of production and i'm sure i'm not getting a lot of fans out there tesla fans but on the flip side you know you can imagine by the way i can say as a matter of data data the visited tesla. I've been on the floor. No i'm sorry i'm i'm sorry i'm making this other visited spacex. Oh so i presume it's a similar uh command and control structure. It is the cleanest factory i've ever seen. Thanks is different than tesla in this way but it's not very loosey goosey their yeah yeah i mean a lot of manufacturing conduct sphere tighter because they they need to be tighter coordinate more efficiency and again the the companies that are most innovative but what am i. Innovative is that you not just have good ideas but you can actually scale them up <hes> have to do both they need leaders who can effortlessly kind of switch gears and it's hard because the people are attracted to startups tend to have loose mindsets and i've talked to some startup or as they call themselves cereal startups because once they start scaling up or get bought out they you don't like the rules they like. Oh i got to get out of here. I can't stand this regulation that has to come with scaling up vice versa tight companies. They are really good good at implementing things but but they might not be good at coming up with really cool creative ideas <hes> so this is where the tight was trade off comes into play to be really super innovative unique both mindsets and we could see at the national level that it's really that balance of having some balance of titan loose that can help countries country's de innovative will definitely seems to be a message of your book that there's some aristoteles in mean here right between being too tight and too loose on on the one hand a loser culture might be more creative and open but on the other hand they will also have more crime and so presumably there's some intermediate stage aid for everything is the best i think i would say yeah i would say that groups need to tight or loose for good ecological reasons <hes> social class with organizations like comparing united versus tesla or nations but it's the groups that get to extremely the direction that start having really big problems and we showed this in a paper we published that the relationship between tight-loose is curve linear with a lot of outcomes and the idea is simple groups that get extraordinarily lose can't predict behavior and they become very chaotic whereas groups that are really tight a very repressive dirk. I'm called this sort of annex mic suicide. When it comes to becoming too loose you didn't use the term loose but i would say that's what he was talking about. Were too fatalistic to suicide if they get so repressive and we actually showed with its they're extremely loose and extremely tight cultures that have high suicide rates or have low wealth or have high you guys have depression and low happiness and you want not an example of this in terms of dynamics is analyzing dynamics happening in egypt because often systems go between these extremes and egypt's is a good example of a place where it was super tight very high degree of oppression in control when mubarak was ousted the assistant went to the exact opposite went to you know basically the other extreme and people were screaming freedom in the streets at first but then suddenly it was like wait. This place is chaotic. We can't do anything and coordinate and predict each other's behavior and there was a lot of chaos and we found in our surveys in egypt at the time is that people perceive that chaos really wanted another autocratic regime place place again they were wanting to have the salafi of the muslim brotherhood takeover because that extreme looseness that chaos that ensued after taking out this top down control all without any kind of missile level institutions picking up the pieces it produces what i call autocratic recidivism it produces his exact opposite the pattern for america does seem so puzzling but for us as cross cultural psychologists at didn't because when there's chaos in this extreme lewis looseness context whether it's the philippines jeans or russia or anywhere or just perceived people want tightness because it's kind of functional in in many ways <hes> but often it's over we see people and groups overshooting in that tightness and then we have problems at the other extreme. I'm not painting a great rosy picture but at least we can understand dynamics mix through the lens of norms an awful. I think think about other factors structural factors. Maybe it should make sense to us. Maybe the u._s. is a little bit atypical typical in how close we've been to the medium over time but you know in european history i think we can certainly see these wild oscillations back and forth whether as the french revolution or weimar germany where you go from very lose very tight and and trying to find that middle ground can be harder than it sounds in curry. Yeah i think that's right. I think the right now we're trying to do some more work in ancient history looking at the evolution of titan lewis. I'm working with peter church in who's at uconn who's an evolutionary biologists and he's developed this great database called she shot that's trying to maximize history <hes> in really incredible interesting ways as again really time consuming and so forth but we want to try to look at this more systematically to see you know how does st louis relate to resilience and stability and change <unk> over hundreds and thousands of years. I mean it's not it's not a new concept. It's relevant for since we've been on earth that groups develop rules and those strictness with which we it here to them varies so we wanna kinda go even further back to trace exactly what you're talking about and the u._s. is interesting place. Where a baby country. We've been separated by two oceans from the rest of the world. We've had some conflict obviously of course but <hes> actually my younger daughter who's fifteen some years ago. She asked me if i was worried about canada. Canada and mexico invading us <hes> and of course some people might answer that differently now but i thought it was the funniest thing. Is we take for granted of course. There's some pockets of the u._s. That have more natural disasters and more pathogens were scarcity and they tend to be tighter and our data but nevertheless you know i think that we're struggling now as a nation with how how much threat is real and how much it's perceived because perceived threat has very similar impact and what we're finding our research is that people are vastly overestimating threats. That's even based on actual data for example on illegal immigrants people vastly overestimate the problem and they also vastly overestimate how how much group who come to this country as just one threat are going to be loosening the fabric of this country in fact immigrants. It's fallon's <hes> actually are more likely to pay attention attention to rules and so it's just something now that we're in very new territory and trying to negotiate tight loosen the u._s. based on objective threat. I mean this talk about how well we adhere to. The norms is kind of almost puts to the background. The question of what the the norms are and and maybe is it completely neutral as to as to what the choice of norms are where the obey them or not. I had this podcast conversation with nicholas. Kristof is where he mentioned a tiny culture that somehow it had developed a norm against romantic love so that you you would you know there was this norm that you would just sort of have sex with different partners for a couple of weeks and then move onto someone else and there were always these young rebels who run away and get married like the but i mean maybe it doesn't matter what the norms are but is there some relationship with what kind of norms ormes there are versus. How tighter lucy culture is yeah. It's so interesting i mean this is what we studied with the the standard sample data because we were analyzing the strengthen uh-huh in gender and sexuality and funerals and ethics and we found that there's a lot of coherence that when norm sent to restrict rules and behavior in one domain like can gender or sexuality they tend to also restrict them and other domains. There's tends to be not. I mean that's some context i mean. Every culture has tightened was elements they if they don't then they're going to like like i mentioned have serious problems. Even japan that tightest one of the tightest cultures and our data has context where people go crazy in terms of like drinking and weird weird video games and things like that iran very tight culture has an underground looseness so we can find pockets of it in any country but in any context but we do we do tend to find that tends to be a spillover effect in different domains of life and now we're starting to develop scales at tried to assess different domains remains of tightness when it comes to language to gender or how you treat authorities or <hes> public behavior in public settings so that we could start to really map this profiles profiles and different groups as i said so far. We've seen a lot of coherence in terms of that domains tend to have tightness abbas logic in terms of being permissive or restrict. <hes> your question really though i think is also about how do we judge other cultures for their norms and you no this is really difficult because i'm a feminist but also cross cultural psychologists and i tend to have some ethical issues around this because i want to be open to the fact that different from cultures have different rules on that they've evolved for different reasons <hes> and that <hes> we can't just judge them with our own sort of glasses the same sometimes i think that i believe that you know when it comes to physical harm i i would say no that i would judge that norm to say when physical harm is inflicted on women or girls or whatnot that that's a problem and i think that's where i would draw my my lime <hes> but often. I think it's the case that we have to still understand. Where are these traditions. Come from and how to negotiate them. That's happening a lot now and <hes> the international development world. You know it's fascinating because a lot of times these these organizations have gone into africa africa other context trying to change behavior whether it's <hes> genital cutting or it's breastfeeding an early childhood marriage and they come in and they just try to change people's those attitudes and they don't recognize that starting to recognize now as a huge movement going on in that world that it's really norms that you can change attitudes but if there's strong norms against these practices practices you gotta understand where they came from and how to negotiate those underlying values that support those norms because in those contexts you could change attitudes all you want but people people still will be worried about being punished for changing them so that's something i also talk about toward the end of the book and in terms of that international development world and tight-loose yes speaking of which is there a relationship between tight loose and cosmopolitanism or isolationism. I mean how welcoming we are not just to what's happening in our norm in our local environment but to completely other cultures. Is there an openness expert as i'm asking the question. I think i'm answering it. Also looser cultures are are also more open to mingling with other cultures yeah absolutely i mean there's definitely a strong connection because those contexts loose context. I think actually looseness is really about <hes> having a lot of diversity in many contexts and you can't really agree on a one norm that will guide behavior so automatically fosters that it kind of openness to other cultures and i would say that a lot of the conflict we have around the world these days is kind of on the axis of tight-loose these kind of context where in any country that are <hes> feeling a lot of threat and wanna turn inward and that are largely feeling the threat of globalization and immigration as as compared to the context in every country where people thrive on diversity and openness and i think what we need to do is understand each others perspectives where to these threats threats come from. I mean a lot of the work that we've done showed that people who feel a lot of threat whether it's from isis or from economics they tend to think the system is to lose. They're worried about the permissiveness in the country and they that intern is in part explaining their vote for people trump or lapenne or brexit <hes> and so so i think we have to not think about this some puzzle in history when people feel threatened and that's happening a lot in the manufacturing belt. I just drove through michigan recently. Okay i was just amazed to see the ghost towns that exists <hes> and and i think that we're not really thinking about how do we actually help. People feel less threatened in the book. I talk about the working class. In the united states where loose individuals a culture we don't tend to actually have structures to help the working class in germany by contrast trust which is tighter. There are standardized procedures to help the working class. There are ways to have a certificate to go back between different companies. There's more of a a <hes> helping kind of system that is organized to help connect people in local communities to educators to businesses and that's really helpful because then we can ward off that threat but as long as we just kind of think that that's we could just let people fend for themselves it makes it really hard and context where there's increasing economic competition and globalization and so forth but that's you mentioned germany as a tight culture sure so in some sense that this is a strategy that a tight culture can have to make things easier and alleviate that threat if they make it easier to go back and forth between between jobs. Is that the idea yeah. I mean there's a whole structure to germany where you know when you're tracked into vocational type of job bob versus college education. There's a whole system to help people to actually really see thrive in those contexts is my understanding and in terms of being able to have these certificates that are standardized that help you go between different types of companies and that's not the case. You have to relearn a lot and i think it's fascinating because we just think in the u._s. I've interviewed some people on this anyway in manufacturing context that want to loosen up be more creative where they have a lot of people from the working class that have been in these companies they they don't understand that this is not going to be easy to just switch suddenly to becoming this creative person versus. You know i remember how far back it goes to at least three years old and you know it's just people don't realize that it's very difficult to go from title lewis and i have some stories about this in the book where you know clearly people recognize. Sometimes you got to really tighten up. We're gonna loosen up but there's real threats that people perceive on either vantage point when you're trying to tighten up groups feel like a lot real serious threat to autonomy and i talked to bob herbold who talked me microsoft when he tried to tighten up things because they were kind of chaotic that he got a lot of pushback are on the flipside when you try to loosen up things too quickly people feel a sense of unpredictability and they feel loss of control so the best leaders try to help deal with those needs and they're also patient. Americans are not exactly known for our patients talk about us. I've studied american patients but you know it takes these things take time and they also take a lot of patients because as i've noticed with some places i've interviewed when they're trying companies like manufacturing trying to loosen up they tend to bring in a loose unit senate who is going to help them become creative but then they have all these cultural clashes because they can't really stand each other. They have problems with each other. The worst group things that are being too controlling rolling the tight group thinks that you know they're the new group is missing deadlines and his you know it just really unpredictable so it's it. I talked quite a bit about different strategies for for that these differences but it definitely helps to know the language and understand the psychology of titan lewis to help do that yeah no i think just being aware of of the dimension and how important is can be very helpful. You mentioned italy a while back. I was in italy just a month or so ago and you know just trying to get to the restaurant on mm time much less trying to get food once we were in the restaurant was a real challenge to we. Americans who are like where is the taxi ordered an hour ago or and everyone's like who you'll get here. So what are you worried about and i think that you you make the point that maybe if you're aware of tuned to these differences than it could be very helpful apple whether you're a visitor or an immigrant or someone who is getting to know different kinds of society to not judge them by your standards yeah that's right actually italy's a really good example because viewers loose our data but there are a couple of domains i discovered that are really super tight in italy and i wonder if this resonates with your experience and one of them is like food is pretty tight like you don't put parmesan cheese on fish and pasta or else you gotta get some really strange looks and i actually did some experiments on this really bad. Ed looks on when i was trying to do that or fashion is pretty tight and what's interesting and what i discovered. I haven't proven scientifically but my guess is that domains that are really really really important in a culture that are valid really highly like in italy that's fashion and food. They tend to be pretty regulated and have a lot of strong norms around them. <hes> and the same as in other cultures like in new zealand is really pretty loose but there are certain domains that really tight and that's because those domains are really super important and one of them is a gal terrorism. There's a great great phrase called knocking down tall poppies in australia and new zealand <hes> which is really pretty highly regulated. Try to stand out in these contexts that you'll get some pushback doc and so in general that's loose context but there's some domains that get to be highly normalized because they are trying to protect them but nevertheless the last. I agree that understanding these differences is really important. We call it really trying to increase cultural intelligence in our field. We have this kind of i._q. Concept we have e. Q. emotional intelligence but we know from the literature that they're distinct constructs. You can have all the i._q. And it'd be really bad and cultural diligence you could speak lots of languages can still be culturally an unintelligent and their scales and there's measures that you can assess and you know it's fascinating to me again to the point that cultures invisible is that it's still the case that a lot of times we send people abroad even for big assignments whether they're in global management or there's the state department or their for international types of negotiations nations and you know we don't anticipate well wait. Is this person matched that culture you know are they trained to really go to this culture. We promote people based on their technical expertise not in the u._s. and we send them abroad and we know from our data that it's harder to adapt to tight cultures but that people who have the kind of tighter mindset that we talked about tend to do better we actually just published a paper on that that you can identify the kind of people that might do better tighter whose cultures and or train people to understand these differences it says because it costs a lot of money and early return and in certainly in stress when people go to cultures and have a lot of shock around these issues that could have been anticipated and just to bring it home. I mean i think you also mentioned that there could be implications for forget about other cultures. Just think about the workplace or your home life or or your social circles where you recognize either different people or different aspects of how you get together that reflect this tightness or looseness. I presume that theoretical physicists overall are going to be pretty loose about things like our jobs to kinda think of theories of the universe but you gotta get certain things done on time right. I mean you're still in an environment where there are rules. Maybe different people respond to that differently. Yeah that's exactly right. I think that when i start analyzing conflicts around around me whether it's with your spouse with your kids your colleagues or even on vacations like i just got back occasion and tight. We was like rears. Its ugly head on vacation all the time you know it's the kind ended like people that love structure when everything plan and want to get up the crocodile and then there's like loose slides spontaneous and you know they're both have their advantages. I i find that what's fascinating whether it's on vacations or whether it was your spouse your kids that what's helpful is to negotiate the differences and we know from the negotiation tation literature that you've got identify your priorities. What are the domains. If you're loose like what will you can you can. You not give up on it and if you're tight like what are the domains that are must for are you and then negotiate the rest and actually do this with my kids. It sounds kind of crazy and they probably like they know about cross cultural psychology but they our household we sort of think about what are the domains that we have to be strict in and that turns out to be like schoolwork and health and how they treat each other but then there's other domains domains that we could be a little more lax about like how messy the houses there bedtime or the curfew and there's a way to kind of think through i mean i'm sure my husband thinks the house is a total mess. You know he's yours taylor. He's drives him crazy but again like to the extent that you can kind of think about what are your priorities and then talk them through and actively negotiate renegotiate did that can actually help same with vacations like you know whether it's on what day you were going to be tired loser what context you know if you vocabulary start talking what about it and i find that to be pretty exciting because we can harness these differences and be more productive in our daily lives have less conflict flecked in our relationships. I'm just i'm just getting more and more evidence by when i do these podcasts and very different subjects that there really was something to this whole aristoteles <hes> ration- thing like they're extremes that have their virtues and somewhere in between is not even necessarily some algorithm formula for wear in between there is a happy medium yeah. You know it's fascinating. I also became really obsessed with this concept because for years people are asking what's better like freedom or constraint plato and <hes> and confucius like no we need rules then like hobbes hobbes also who thought we need rules he thought everyone's pretty negative view of the world and then you had people why jon stewart mills or freud who felt like rules are problematic and it's to me it's not about which is better about the balance and i found a lot of evidence outside of my lab for that principle like parenting is a good example where we know that parents that are too strict. We're to laws a fair produce maladaptive kids so that that's the kind of you know curve linear goldilocks thing that you referred your we know that organizations again you're too tired to start having problems and i even stumbled into this phenomena in the brain that you know when you have too much synchrony in the brain between regions or too too little synchrony it produces different brain disorders so there's a lot to be said about that principle <hes> beyond just knit nate national cultures and explore it in chapter called the goldilocks effect but i'm sure there's lots of other examples that we haven't stumbled into this is great. I think this is a podcast. I've done this is a nice golden. Mean between being a giant theory of how everything works and actually practical advice for people's lives here that i don't wanna in a kind of you know. Some people don't like the the grand theory is because they feel like simplifying the world and i guess for me i think it's good to have multiple theories series about the world and then use them because there's not one grand theory that will explain culture but the more we understand these sub theories the better off we'll be in the world and i think that in this globalized world we have we need more cultural intelligence and we need to move beyond these kind of simple distinctions of red blue east west <music> to get to those kind of just of culture. It's increasingly important and if we can figure that out then we'll be in a better place to build a better world is is there idea don't worry the mindscape podcast is a safe space for granted everything that's great michelle. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. Thank you for having me <music> <music>.

new york united states Singapore china japan michelle gelfond north carolina sean carroll distinguished university profe singapore Bob university of maryland college pakistan nagasaki austria national academy of sciences beijing harry steven pinker
148 - Rule Makers, Rule Breakers

You Are Not So Smart

1:13:27 hr | 2 years ago

148 - Rule Makers, Rule Breakers

"The law. Cool. Cool. Welcome to the you are not so smart podcast episode one forty eight. We are about to sit down with psychologist Michelle Guelfi, and I made a rock and roll good. Well, let's rock and roll guitar. So my name's Michelle fan. I'm a professor at the university of Maryland college park, and I'm across cultural psychologists, so I look at universal and culture specific aspects of him baby all around the world and within the United States and use wide ratty methods from field and lab and computational neuroscience methods to understand all things cultural gilpin directs the culture lab at the university of Maryland where they study the strength of cultural norms as well as the Goshi, Asian conflict revenge forgiveness and diversity in the interview, we will discuss her new book rulemakers rule breakers. How tight and loose cultures wire our world in the book. Michelle presents her research into norms and presents a fascinating new idea. It isn't norms themselves that predict how cultures will react evolve innovate and engaging. Flicked but how cultures value their own norms? She categorizes all human cultures into two kinds tight or loose and argues that all human behavior depends on whether a person lives in a tight culture or a loose culture. Unspoken rules of behavior and shared social conventions that we just sort of follow and perform without really thinking about why we do that. For instance, we shake hands with strangers. We applaud at performances in after speeches and unless you live in Morocco Thailand. Yemen, Tunisia Turkey or the Maldives. You probably put a tree inside your living room last year decorated it with tinsel and lights put gifts wrapped in paper underneath which no one was allowed to open, and then what stood slowly die before a special day when it was okay to tear open, the paper and reveal what was inside. Then you took off the decoration threw away the tree for artificial you stored it for next year and returned your living room to normal. You probably put socks on your feet today. Instead of your hands you eight with a fork instead of a hammer you drink coffee with breakfast instead of wine, and even when your lawn you do that sort of thing with no one watch. Watching you follow all these rules of behavior engaging in the sort of behavior you consider normal. Normal. That's the thing norms of the behaviors we consider normal and the different Nord of influences of our different cultures. Tell us what is and is not normal or acceptable behavior. For instance, it's perfectly reasonable to wear a tuxedo to the prom. But not to a baseball game. It's perfectly, okay. To invite a clown to a children's birthday party. But not to a funeral. Why were you can argue? There's no real reason why just habits built up over time in our cultures. But that's not the case. There is a reason why norms serve a valuable function. In the book Galvin explains that evolution shaped, our brain. So that we are naturally in biological programmed to conform to normative influence study showed that infants prefer hand puppets that engage in our most fundamental socially normative behaviors like helping others to open a box full of toys is that preventing others opening that box or worse. Still opening the box and stealing the toys before the others. Could get to them by age three children will openly and vocally sanctioned other children who do things that are considered taboo in their cultures by saying, no, no you aren't supposed to do that. This predilection for creating and following norms makes us unique among animals, no other creature engages in behavior for purely normative reasons studies of non human primates and children who together are taught how to drop a ball into one of three boxes to get a reward will copy the behavior, no problem. But if they are then shown by another of their species that dropping the ball into a different box will also give you the reward only human children will switch to the new box. Other. Studies have shown this as well only humans will conform to the behavior of others. Just for the sake of conformity, even if the conformity is a relevant, even if the behaviors require us to violate the truth of our own senses or better judgement. Even if those behaviors harm ourselves or others why because norms serve a vital function human. Cultures developed norms to solve communal problems to reach goals and to deal with group threats the unites they allow us to quickly nearly ever loosely coordinate, and they help us to cooperate. They are here. Isto we perform them automatically and intuitively and the origin of most of our norms. Was the deal was some problem of collective action in the past. And since doing the thing the norm demands keep society bound together, we keep doing them either. Be don't really notice them or understand why we do so. Yes. Back to the topic at hand tight and loose cultures. Geffen says in her book that the major difference between all cultures is how people react when someone violates norm, for instance, in most of the United States if you do wear tuxedo to a baseball game people will just think of you as quirky. They might even reward you for it with praise and attention if you violate a more sacred norms. Say you wear a clown cost him to a funeral. You might get publicly shamed. But you're not going to be flogged or stoned. And it's not unlikely that somewhere right now. Someone is having a funeral where everyone is wearing clown costumes. The United States is a loose culture. We are perfectly. Okay. With someone dressed as Darth Vader playing a tubal riding a unicycle peddling del sidewalk, but in places like Singapore things are different in nineteen Ninety-four. An American teenager was sentenced there to four months in jail and a public caning for throwing eggs at cars. Singapore is a tight culture, even the lightest violations of norms. Bring strict sanctions, spitting on the street are not flushing public toilet. Would you a thousand dollar fine strictly enforced? There's no drinking of alcohol between ten thirty PM and seven AM strictly enforced. Singing obscene song in. Public is punishable by prison smuggling drugs is punishable by death. And none of this is considered an overreach in that culture. In the book Galvin explains how this tightness or looseness develops. You'll hear all about this in the interview the short version is that cultures tighten up when they face threats and those threats can be ecological like food shortages or natural disasters or they can be human in historical like invaders in wars and economic collapse. When resources are tight or they are in danger of being lost cultures become rulemakers when resources are plentiful in the threats are few. They become rule breakers. And there are drawbacks and benefits to both in the dynamic within and between tight and loose cultures explains. A great deal of the mysteries of human social conflict and Evelyn in. You will hear all about that? In the interview. After this break. If you are always on the hunt for fresh fascinating insights about the world. You will love the great courses. Plus this online streaming service offers in-depth information on an exclusive extensive variety of topics virtually anything, you could be interested in you can find a way to learn more about it with the great courses plus science history philosophy psychology, even photography learning. New language math. Any thing? The information is reliable and presented in a truly engaging way by experts who are not only knowledgeable, but so passionate about their subjects. It uses with authenticity and expertise. There are thousands of lectures to explore what the great courses plus and you can watch or listen to any them all on your schedule. I really enjoyed their course, you're deceptive mind. I mean, it is. Cornerstone of the stuff we talk about here in the show. And you're deceptive mind, even uses you are not so smart as a source in some of the lecture, topics. It offers a fascinating look at our brains worked construct our sense of reality, how we process information and misinformation and how we can better learn to become stronger critical thinkers, this is a course taught by professor of neuroscience at the Yale school of medicine doctors, Steven novella he's been on this show before he is a master of critical thinking and in the course, you'll get answers to what should you think? What should you believe could you be deceiving yourselves questions that all critical thinkers of any age must constantly ask themselves? 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Get this for free. I actually really love it. It's great courses plus dot com slash smart. And now, we return to our program. I'm David mccranie. And this is the you're not so smart podcast. And this is our interview with psychologist Michelle Galvin. So let's get started with this question. I wanna know. And it's good to start a first principles. What are norms? So norms are this omnipresent. But invisible force that is acting much of our lives that realizing it formally speaking there, really unwritten sometimes coda fide rules for behavior. And what's fascinating is. Of course, all groups have norms. An impact we constantly follow worms were on. I call normative autopilot a lot of the time. We don't even recognize how much our behavior from the moral or waking up to go to sleep is influenced by these unwritten rules, and also what's even more fascinating. And I write about this in rulemakers will breakers just how much we need norms. So they're Amna present they're invisible, but we really need them. And they also bury tremendously across cultures. And moreover, they evolve. Good reasons the difference. Evolve could be than they have very predictable consequences in in my search. So it's it's a really exciting way to kind of think about how we're profoundly influenced by something that is visible but super important. So what are these norms? Come from like, I there's all sorts of ways to try to make sense of this. And a lot of them try to remove the very blank slate about it. So I'm interested in thinking in terms of biology and adaptation, like why would this be a feature of human cognition, where do they come from what function do they serve? So so norms are miracle say, and I think they're just one of the most important inventions of humans because they enable us to predict each other's behaviour and to coordinate at an unprecedented level, and they give us a sense of identity. I mean, if you think about it the way to think about norms and how important they are on their functions. I service imagine a world without norms. I write about this in a book. Imagine you wake up and you walk outside and people are driving on either side of the street, not obeying stop signs or stop lights go to restaurants. People are stealing food from each other's plates. Burp? Loudly, and you would ally bers people singing in their shouting. There's just so many contacts every day where we are biding by norms, and it helps us to coordinate incredibly, and this has been something that humans have been doing for millennium. So norms have been part of our history for as long as on earth is almost to be interdependent and coordinate. We need these kind of unwritten rules to help predicted behavior and in the book, and we'll talk about raider. I talk about why some groups need stronger than others. Why it makes sense to have some cases tighter cultures and some cases looser cultures and that they have important consequences. And so it's really once you start thinking about norms. You can't stop thinking about them. If you go outside you start thinking about how many norms, you're following all the time. You start noticing what people are violating the worms trains in libraries everywhere, especially looser cultures where that happens a lot. And so it becomes something you start realizing his so. Portent? And and it's also so deeply part of our our history in our in our psyche. Another question when it comes to norms is that are we biologically pre-bid predisposition to generate them and who receive them in to behave in ways that accordance with them. Are they purely a invention a purely innovation that then took off once it was adopted widely? It's a great question. You know, what's really interesting is how little we know about that question. I am in some of our work when may recently been looking at the neuroscience of social norm violation detection. It's clear that this very little work on this and how norms get in brained and we're starting to use EEG. Mariah techniques published studies on this to to look at what's happening in terms of the brain mechanisms and and norms by latest. We do know though, that, you know, even as early as infancy that there is evidence that infants are starting to show. Oh, a lot of normative types of behaviors. For example, people have shown that infants indicate a clear preference for propeller. Meaning they reach for them. That's how that's measured in this research when they see puppets engaging in order behavior, when they see puppets, for example, helping other puppets. And they don't reach for puppets. That are doing kind of nasty things, you know, that are beaten up other puppets, or that are engaging know other kind of antisocial behavior, and of course, later on by the time, we're three we could see that children are actively trying to berate norm violators when they're interacting with again puppets, who are doing sort of nasty stop they start to disapprove of them. So this this is really happening really early even before formal language, which suggests that there is an adaptation that we could see that humans have able to argue sort of culture co evolution preventive that. We're able to adapt to rules and norms particular. In some context would have some kind of advantage. Okay. Well, and I love any question that ends up with. I don't know. Maybe we'll see we're working on that. Because you know, you talk about western psychology. And I like to joke that if we started psychology in China, or in Singapore or in other cultures that are were norms are really important and the more tight that we'd know about more about them in the United States, focus on personality and individual differences and all sorts of individualistic melodic types of issues versus trying to verge ample understand like what are the what are the top categories of norms that we need to study. What are the what are the top five situational context? Like a big five personality. We don't really know that it's clearly started to evolve people like David funder have great new handbook on social situations. So it's valvoline and clearly there's a huge incredible amount of activity happened now in terms of norm psychology. I've been working with people and also to discipline. From biology to at the policy to history to neuroscience and computational computer science to to get norms, and it's really starting to take hold. So it's taken awhile. And that's where the we don't know comes from. But you know, ten years, we'll know a lot more. It's exciting new. Meta theoretical field. That's developing a very interesting into displinary way. I love that. This was we're psychology out right now. I mean, I'm not phased by the replication crisis because I look at it and think well that science doing what science does I say also that this idea replication has been something that cross cultural psychologists been talking about for decades. Yeah. I wrote a chapter some years ago, maybe twenty years ago that talked about all the way that your stuff might not replicate when you take your western theory, measure and just export it to Japan to Iraq and cross cultural psychologists in Gooding in nineteen eighty there was a huge methodology handbook of many many different volumes on how do you do cross culture research and come to conclusions that are based on? In a sense. There's so many ways that things won't replicate that have nothing to do with the actual research question could be things like translations could be how people interact differently with experimental. I mean, there's so many ways things will replicate in cross culture psychologists been saying that we have to be very careful this very small ways in which things might replicate. And you know, I think what's fascinating to see people. Now starting to look at that. I think we need to really be very confident that we need to work together to figure out how might something very small have made something not replicate because cross cultural psychologists been talking about this for decades. And they partnered together to see like, okay when things are not replicating causing it is it really that the series is that the research question is really bogus. Or is it just really small methodological artifact? And I think there's a lot that people can learn from cross cultural writing on this topic true. And it's. I think a lot about the most is that it it's almost a reset. But now, I guess it. I mean to like you're right like going back to the beginning. And like if we were thinking cross culturally from the beginning Hina said something like it was a you said, it feels almost like all of psychology is based off studying one, you know, organism. Like if I all Adji was based off of studying one organism. I think we said in the show something like it'd be like biology up to this point had been based off of one single cave spider. And then like, and then they're like, oh, wait a lot species. We can like explore because we spent so much time with the western undergraduate student as our size our research subject, and I find that super encouraging to think oh my God. There's so much meat on the bone is actually a metaphor. You can think about it in psychometric says sa- clearly there'd be some stop that relevant that universal will at things across cultures. But some will be contaminated meaning that it's like what we've studied here doesn't apply to the. Places which really missing. And I think this is where a lot of us. Are we really have to move in this direction is what's deficient in a why would it be that a five factor scale on personality would necessarily capture every element of personality in Egypt, for example, might might be six dimension that we haven't looked at. You know, what's fascinating is to look at construct deficiency and construct contamination, and this really awesome research. I reviewed it in the annual of your psych chapter that we did on cross cultural organizational psychology, where you can look at okay, even concert like organizational citizenship behavior is clearly seven the dimensions of that contract which developed in the US will generalize China, but went the studies in China show that summer not relevant, and then they're missing really important elements. And that's really where the most exciting kind of work is done where we kind of move. We use our samples another cultures to expand the contract space to refine. What is universal? What's what we need to add? And what's, you know? So it's new that. Really were missing. And that's what's really exciting that requires collaborations research teams of people who are really working together and doing qualitative and quantitative work at methods to try to we'll expand our contracts. Let's let's get into your book. I wanna see I wanna build a very quick foundation. We've already talked about what norms are I'm wondering. If there's going to be weird question. But you think about all these norms that we that interplay with one another and that everyone is hearing to and sanctioning each other. And all these things is that what culture is or as a masking is due cultures. You know, generate norms, or is it is it that the cultures really are just a collection of norms in the first place. I think it's really both. I mean clearly cultures create norms. We could see in the same kind of domain a behavior. Like, even what can you people called proxima ex how closely stand to each other various very dramatically in the world. Wait when you're in Latin America, not all but many people are standing much closer together as compared to the United States in Asia. So that's where you could see cultural differences exist a lot in the same exact types of domains. And but at the same time, you know, you can change norms to change cultures. I've been doing some of this in context like in hospitals where you try to create new norms of organizing that might actually create more collaborative well-functioning culture. So it really is mutually kind of constituent. How does one go about creating a norm because when another very big question, but the thing is I think about a lot of activism and a lot of politics. You know, often a lot of arguments that we have on the internet. You know, kind of boil down to someone is really wishing that the other party adhered to a different set of norms that they saw things in a certain way where they would they would realize that the norms to which use scribe are valid in rational reasonable and better and that they're more useful or less harmful than whatever. The other person is doing whatever the other person's subculture is doing right. And we were seeing this kind of stuff happen daily right now in American politics. But it's always part of our life is civilizations. Move from like, whether slavery was normal. You know, and then then it became extremely not normal. And I think sometimes about what if you were to take somebody who lived in a period of slavery in the United States, and you put them in a time machine in the took them to now, and you dump them out. Like, what would they do? They argue with people would they very quickly assimilate. This is a really fascinating question. I think it's. It's very very complicated because it involves bottom up processes of like constant communication persuasion in involves both kind of normative descriptive. Norm. Permission of how many people are doing something versus kind of injunctive norms child eating talks about, but it also could be very much top down driven. And I've seen leaders in organizations as an example who directly try to change norms and try and and realize that they have to really get buy in and show people. Why changing norm would really be important for their own wellbeing? And so I think it's really combination of bottom up and top down types of processes it. Of course, varies tremendously, depending on the culture that you're in in our computational models. We could see that even when you introduce a new norm into a population, which means that it has higher economic value. It takes much longer to take to kind of gain momentum and be adopted in groups that are very tight. As compared to loose where change is more incremental changes much more catastrophic in tighter cultures where there's much more conformist pressures. So that's all to say that there's a huge amount of really cool work going on right now on how do you change norms? But with from bottom up and top down perspective. So in the book you in the very beginning, you you talk a little bit about how norms what they are our affected by them. They're sort of their purpose or they're not necessarily purpose function new sort of breezed through a little bit and talk about how they there's actually lots of different kinds of norms news, you you mentioned coda fide mundane unspoken originalist. I think this kind of stuff is usually really fun because when you hear them you'd be like, yes, they are there are different kinds. And I subscribe to all of these so run us through the different kinds of norms coda fide versus mundane unspoken versus explicit ritualistic versus you know, all that stuff. Sure. So you know, code of norms. I really like sort of a cluster, or you know, kind of a constellation of rules around certain categories of behavior. And in fact, in my research for the book, I found that you know, the oldest code of norms is found in the code of Hammurabi, which is this sort of well-preserved balloon code of ancient rules patina was around seventeen fifty four BC when it it's been discovered today back to and with interesting there as you can see that, you know, they're this huge number of rules. Rules were you know, organized around transaction and contracts and family and household responsibilities and other types of rules that were really one of the first evidence that humans were really like taking these rules and writing them down and organizing them into clusters. Of course, we have a lot of sort of mundane rules that we you know, every day rules we abide by saying Hello. And goodbye when we wait when when you're on the phone putting clothes on that. But in general, you know, many cultures in our research of traditional societies have rules. For grad of credit, like which in communication, how do thority how we dress. How we eats clearly things like gender and sexuality public etiquette and so forth. So there are some universal sort of domains of rules. Rituals are really interesting because they're kind of sequences of rules that are organized help bond groups together. And so they involve many different types of rules that are typically coordinate in some interesting sequence, you think about Halloween it's gonna ritual, for example, that, you know, kids, you know, getting dressed up. Also, we're costumes that we don't usually let them go and just bang on strangers doors on a daily basis and ask for food. You know, I wanted to do that the day after Halloween and see how people react 'cause it's a certain sequence of appropriate behavior. That's accepted on a particular time of the year for particular reason. And with particular gotta rules around that sequence. I'm looking at this thinking, what are we? You know about norms in non humans and non human primates. It's a great question. I mean is a fascinating field looking at you know, cultures and animals and rules and other types of normative kinds of evidence of some normative behavior. But what we do know is that, you know, as far as we know other species, don't abide by norms that are just symbolic that just because people are trying to fit into the group. They tend to follow other doing because of instrumental reasons because it might help them get better food or a better mates or things like that. So human seem to be an again research is the jury's out on this. But they seem to be different in terms of our symbolic types of processes about the norms. Also, clearly just our ability to develop huge systems that help us scale up or behavior, and you know, basically, transmit these kinds of norms across generations and so forth. So there I wouldn't say that you know, animals certainly are absolutely remark. Other species. And certainly a lot of social learning that goes on animals, but it tends to be uniquely related to instrumental types of purposes. And what do you think of like, I've read lots of places to to say like culture doesn't exist among animals that it's all local enhancement and things like that where they're just copying behaviors that get them stuff they want. But it's not actually there's no takeoff. There's no cumulation like is. Is there truth to that? You don't see chimpanzees with Robert wedding ceremonies. You know? So I think that there's a lot of truth to that. You know, that clearly I think it's important to respect, you know, the incredible advances that you see an animal species and so forth, but also recognizing that we are. We definitely have capabilities that help us scale up transmit and engage in normal behavior to produce unbelievable types of accomplishments. So I do think that they are distinct. And how early to human beings seem to notice adhere to norms. You mentioned it a little bit earlier. But I'd like to ask the question directly. Yeah. I, you know, it's fascinating. As I mentioned, you know, their studies of infants that show that infants even without any formal language ability indicate clear preferences, for in this case puppets that they're interacting with that are engaging in normative ways that are helping other puppets as compared to not reaching puppets. That are doing all sorts of antisocial types of things. And then it's it's later that we see even by h three that we see that you know, that that toddlers are starting to actively berate puppets were violating norms. I've been studying this also across different cultural groups in particular, working class in class, and I and and I see big differences even by h three and how these groups are interacting with puppets violating norms. So these these things happen really early. I mean, it's remarkable to start seeing this stuff happening with infants who are. Emptive to what's happening in the social environment. And then starting to reinforce it. Do something very interesting. And you know, I've seen this framed in seemed like with of this framed in different ways, but I've never seen a friend that what you do. And your research is unique. We're talking about norms, and how they they they, you know, cultures are the glue of culture, but you're right about in your book that broadly speaking, we can categorize cultures in either being tight cultures are loose cultures. So if you could walk us through what do you mean by that? I mean, I think as critical psychologist traveling the world and. I've seen so many interesting distinctions like, you know, you go to Singapore. And you're not allowed to bring arch quantities of gum into the country. And you could get fined for things like not flushing the public toilet or walking in front of your curtains naked. It's actually on the statue. Or, you know, e in other places like in New Zealand, which are much more lax you have people walking barefoot and banks, and you have them burning couches on college campuses. You see also to differences in in rule abidance around the world in Germany, for example, where people tend to walk pay wait patiently sidewalks, even there's no cars around as compared to in my home city of New York where people are constantly jaywalking and with kids into and I started to think about this distinction of all cultures have rules. They had these norms of behavior, but some groups and to have much tighter rules, much stronger punishments for deviance, and this is a distinction titan lose that was first introduced in the late sixties by pelt. Oh, an anthropologist. Who started to look at this introducing societies. But it then kinda got left off the map. You know, we including myself started study things collectivism and individuals on how much you emphasize family versus independence and privacy. And and then I started to really start looking at this more systematically in a paper that we published in science years ago, we developed a metric to try to understand can we place countries on a continuum of titan loose. Is there any reason why cultures developed to be titled loose is there some important rationale for it? And what are the consequences? And that's where I started out and later then started looking at how can we use? This lens tight Mussa understand within nation variation like United States, fifty states. How can we use it to understand organizations like United Uber, and how can we use it understand social class and even our own parenting and household is there some kind of frac dole pattern? That's a physics term like recurring repeated pattern across different scales. In terms of the antecedents and consequences of of the strength of norms across human groups. And that's what I talk about in the book because what are some examples that people might be familiar with what are some countries or some cultures that are particularly tight and some that are particularly loose. Sure. So in in the data that we published we could see that places like Japan and Singapore, China places like Germany and Austria tended to veer tight and cultures like New Zealand in the Netherlands and Ukraine, and Brazil, and to your loose and all sorts of Asians between and I wanna say that you consume into any country and find exceptions. So we can see Japan is rather type, but there's some context where people kinda loosen up. There was like a wow to sit up certain context like drinking with your supervisor and other contacts, you know, even when there's looseness like in New Zealand, which is pretty loose. There's some context where there's pretty strict rules like for example in New Zealand. It's really important to be Caledonian. And so people who try to. Have look better than others. Get shot down. It's called the tall, poppy syndrome. So, you know, I'd like to say that we consider us as a microscope like you can zoom out as differences across nations, but you can zoom in and find some interesting exceptions. And so that's really kind of where we started just trying to put a metric on the strength of norms two people agree on this and their countries. And it turns out they do that people in the US agree that into generally lose place, even though we can find pockets of tightness and vice versa in a place like Japan. And you know, what we were really interested in is why these differences develop in the first place, and when I was selecting the nation's being could in the study, I was actually selecting them. So that had variability I thought was going to be a driving factor, and these countries that tend to be tight and to lose. They didn't share any common geography, then it share common religion or tradition or language, but what I found in. General is that the tiniest of our countries, and this applies to other levels analysis tend to have much more threat. So they have much more ecological threat, meaning like, a mother nature. Many more natural disasters famines, and they also have more human made threat. They had more invasions over the last hundred years, they had more pathogens that higher population density in general, you know, compared Singapore with twenty thousand people per mile for with New Zealand has fifty people per square mile in knows context. And this is what's really I think interesting about the Rogic is that when you have a lot of threat. These are collective action problems that you can't solve on your own you need rules, and you need punishments to keep people from defecting in these circumstances. In other words, you need rules to survive in these kinds of context. So there's a certain logic that suggests that when there's threat that you need strong norms for survival and we've actually since then because the science paper was correlation. All we've done a lot of modeling to try to look at this. These are artificial. Society's. But we could see that when you increase threat that you see an increase in tightness that it's an out of patient happens almost immediately. And so this is something we've also seen by the way with our neuroscience research, recently, we published studying scan that worked at house threat affecting coordination. And we see that when there's an Ingram threat like a country that you're is going to be, you know, possibly invading you can see that people coordinate much faster on other test and and their brains become synchronized. So it's fascinating to see you know, how in general. Of course, you know, that's not the only predictor of tightness. There's other predictors. And of course, there's all sorts of interesting exceptions like Israel is a good exception of a place. That's rather loose but pretty threatened, and it's makes a lot of sense. But I do think it's an important part of cross cultural psychology that I think is really important aspect of the field, which is cultures in random it tends to evolve. Good reasons. Yeah. This is the best part to me the idea that you know, these are collective action problems that you're talking about and then norms or away to coordinate and reach goals and to make decisions together. And I think about this in the idea that this often frame is conservative versus liberal, and I'm honored to what you think of that is that how does titan versus loose compared to conservative versus liberal the way that you'll like Jonathan height would talk about or something. What do you think I think it was just broader 'cause it's about a cultural system typically liberal or serving thinking about attitudes and clearly have liberals living in, you know, tight states type country, you can have conservative living in this context too. I think there's some sense of, you know, like many humans like awfully they liked to fit in the environment that you do have some self selection, but not always. And so, you know, tightness is really bad a cultural. System and those individual level variables. In fact, it has a connection with heights work. We could see tight states that they tend to have more of the morality of you know, authority and community those are places where they're tight norms to help coordinate behavior. And in fact, the tight states do also have the the Moore's threat in the United States that more disaster pathogens, food and security and Luther states that tend to have less threat, not all, but many tend to have that morality of fairness, but you know, type affects far more than just liberal versus conservative affects macro level types of variables for example, if x, you know, indices of crime if synchrony rates uniformity affects self control, these are all things that tight cultures have the corner, the market on and loose cultures tend to have much more creativity and have more openness to change, and you know, at -bility and openness to different people. So there's in a sense, you can say as a broad theoretical framework that can incorporate some of those other theories, well, this is so like something that that I think is that I've talked about a lot or I've read about a lot. I haven't really talked about yet is this idea of innovation and rates of innovation and rates of change. And you talk about this a good bit in the book about there's there are different rates of innovation within, a tight culture versus a loose culture. If you could speak to that from an that's really yard. Well, that's really interesting. You think about if you live in a context where people are kind of violating? It was a lot. Like, you see people kind of, you know, jaywalking, you see people do weird stuff in libraries that there's much more permissiveness, it kind of gives you license in a sense like to think outside the box and other contexts like creativity. And we see a strong connection of loose norms creativity. You see it at the national level. There was a great paper published in science quarterly by Chow and his colleagues that showed that in actual crowd. Sourcing types of contests that moose people from whose cultures and more likely to enter those context in the first place, they have more self efficacy, and they also much more likely to win them. And they also found really interestingly that people who tried to innovate in tight cultures like when they had these contests but coming from tighter cultures that it was people from tighter culture that did better. You know, they cut a new the constraints of what's going to be possible in those context. So, you know, what's really interesting. We see that the state level, clearly who states have much creativity. We see even with the level of the brain in our studies where we look at how much do people the tech social violations in the brain. We could see that the people who don't really notice them who don't register them in terms of like frontal area as measuring their responses their way, more creative on other tasks so there there's when they then I don't notice constraints in their environment. They tend to not notice constraints and creativity types of context. Now now with that said, I I would say that I've written about this more recently when it comes to organizational innovation I think that there's a sort of Goldilocks, you know, principle that I talked about in the book where you need a balance of titan loose in many contexts, even if you need to your tight or loose, depending on your environment, and those kinds of ecological challenges even something like innovation, for example, requires looseness requires people to come up with really crazy. Awesome ideas, and you could see examples of sorts of context where people can come up with great ideas, but not implement them you could see contact whereas versus the case. So, you know, I think the clear challenge in organizational context for leaders to help people be more ambidextrous to have sort of balance of of tight, moose when it comes to creativity. So that's my more recent thought about how creativity is definitely connected with looseness, but that when it comes to really scaling up, which is an organizational question, then we need some tightness. I mean, this is that this is the few good men argument. Right. You need to be on that wall. You want me on that wall? Like, this is this balance that the United States is often trying to figure out like should the country be more like California should the country. More like, Texas, are should we do how much should we focus on security and conservative nor norms, and how much we focused on freedom of thought and expression, and you know, being able to completely alter categorical understandings of the world like, where's the balance? You know, you need you need an I'm, you know, I assume Lino the balances you need the security to have the looseness, but there's like one is there in Taganrog forces like desire research, see them positioned as antagonist forces. Or or is is this something that, you know, how do we go? How does? I'm asking like nine questions at one. So so. Like like, you know. How do you end up as North Korea? You know, and is that necessarily bad. You know, they is that a legitimate strategy organizing large group of people, and, you know, gone the other direction like, you know, people go to burning man once year, but then they go back to their jobs in like, why isn't burning man just the way we live everywhere. Like, what is the when you talk about this Goldilocks idea, like what is the sort of push pull antagonism this, and and what are some of the pitfalls, and what are the some of the ways it gets balanced? And so I mean, it's such a fascinating question. And I spent a whole chapter talking about this in the book because you know, what I'm arguing is that yes, certain groups need to your tighter lose for good reason, the working class need stronger rules, for example, because they could fall into poverty, or they have to deal with dangerous jobs or have dangerous neighborhoods. Like, it would be silly to say, let's be super loose in that context. And what we see is that there's big differences between the working class and the middle and upper class that we often neglect when it comes to tight-loose we. Tend to think about different symptoms of Bank accounts with that said, you know, in the same as the case of states or nations that you're tighter loose. But what I found in. My data is a is a pretty robust criminal in ear relationship that that's the suggest that groups that get either really too tight start normalising everything like North Korea, for example, workers get really super super lose. This can happen. Sometimes when a top down control has been taken out, suddenly like in new crane, for example, the groups have really import they have really serious problems also because getting back to the function of norms. Everything becomes really unpredictable and Dirk actually talked about this in terms of Anamika kind of suicide people wanted to escape because everything is just like totally normal and under flipside kind of more of the repressive type of suicide like you're in a context of so many rules. You can't breathe and actually in our data. When we look at suicide rates and blood pressure rates in depression, and all sorts of other. Outcomes we see that it's extremely loose. And extremely tight types of context that have much higher suicide much less wellbeing, much, more instability, and actually a lot of this principle Goldilocks applies to companies, you know, United was arguably coming tight Uber, and tesla are becoming to lose it makes sense for United type because they're an airline. We don't want them doing all the weird things. But they were arguing getting too tight where people following the just real questioning them and vice versa. Places. Like Uber or tesla. Veer lose for good reasons. They're startup context their creative industries, but they arguably becoming super unpredictable and also problematic, and you know, I see this also in the book, I talk about this when it comes to parenting. We know from research that parents that are really controlling and totally helicopter like as compared to parents were totally fair produce kids. They're more maladaptive. And so you see the curve linear there. Also, where you know, it's kind of balance of how do we even if to your tighter looser, how do we sort of go she ate norm strength. And that's what I think is really exciting. I studied to go Chichan and culture, and I've been starting to really apply it to the domain tight-loose in in a household and organizations how can leaders bring people together who have different strengths people who are coming from tight groups and need to be tighter like auditors or people in manufacturing. And then the more creative side of people are in D And bring them together to work together. So that they can capitalize on the order and openness that each of them brings to the table. And there are examples I talk about in the book where some leaders have been able to strike this balance. What I call sort of titans and predicts Darayi, it's not like, okay? Here's the recipe. You know, sometimes it has to do with bringing groups together and giving them an incentive structure to work together. Sometimes it's more sequential of having new scoops work and then follow up with tighter groups. So and it's a it's a really clumsy process. I've interviewed. Quite a bit of people about who have tried to use an up tight norms or tighten up loose norms as needed, and that's how I think about it is that you know, we need to harness the power. So should we invented norms as a species that it's our great invention? And we can use them to our advantage to calibrate when norms are getting outdated in either direction, either tight or loose. This good stuff as if few other questions where he had out here. I spoken about this with someone and they told me to ask this question. And I it's going to sound like some weird Gotcha thing. But it's not as just. They're talking about how how does ask you plainly the? Can you know within the United States California's one of our looser states, I guess we could say I may be wrong about that? But it feels that way. I okay. And you know, a lot of times they're there's this thing of like they have a norm of tolerance. But they seem to be intolerant of intolerant. People in its becomes as conundrum. Right. And I'm wondering like, you know, how does a lose culture deal with people who violate norms that that culture values did a great question. And this is what I was speaking to early about domain specificity that every culture has tightened loose domains. What's interesting from my point of view is that the domains that tend to veer tight, even news culture domains that are really highly valued, for example, just like the California's ample in the Netherlands that have very strong norm for tolerance. And so when people are not tolerant there could be some repercussions. And that's a good example like you can have a tight domain linked to the most central values in that particular context now with that said, I don't think the punishments for violation those contacted nearly severe as you see in the. Tykwer like in Saudi Arabia or Japan. So I think there's still, you know, the jury's out on this. Okay. Can we really call that you know, quickly tight? I do think that there are definitely stronger rules in those domains, and there's clearly gonna be domain specificity. But the question around punishment in officers and all sorts of normative controls is is really an interesting one. Because I do think that there's still more tolerance for intolerance as compared to entitled cultures where in other domains in your other love it. And the sanctions, of course, just like though, public shaming versus public yakking. You're annoying me. I mean, I think that there are clearly going to be some examples where people do in another one's they're, you know, people clearly candidates who were very political candidates were very racist. We're getting really shot down. And so there's there are repercussions. And I do think that it's not. It's what's exciting is to try to think about what domains tend to evolve like to be tighter loose, and what are the consequences in whose culture for violating? There's no, for example, privacy's really tight domain in the United States. You know, we don't just show up each other's houses and start demanding to hang out with each other. There would be seen as like anti normative. Now, what's the punishments for that? I think that domain evolves to be tight because it's a highly cherished values. So it makes a lot of sense. So we're doing a lot of research now on domain specific tightness and how he kind of expand. What are the profiles of domains tight-loose? Why might the develop I will say that was interesting. Meeting is even though you could find these domains when research that we've just finished in traditional societies with Carol ember. You know, this is not a distinction that applies to modern nations applies to ancient societies. And we've been coding like eighty to a hundred Naga Fay's for tight loose. And we've been looking at this both in terms of domain specific like socialization, gender, sexuality funerals, all sorts of domains of life that if Naga for is right about and when we factor, analyzed the norm strength in these particular Nagas, very strong factor. Ten things to cohere pretty much in cultures. Even if you have some domains that might be tighter loser. There's a strong factor of even traditional societies. I'm excited Peter church in and I who is a evolutionary biologist at you kinda start into now plants in research to look at tight moose even further back in history and test them visionary principles around it with his new project on math matai history. So that's really pretty pr-. Exciting. The I want to only have two more questions here. Good. Good good. 'cause I plan to pick your brain alive when I get a freedom here. But the talk a little bit about radicalization terrorism that sort of thing and before we get into that. Specifically, I was really interested in. I think we all watched. I think in the eyes dates for me was like watching norms change and attitudes. Change about LGBT writes that was really amazing to watch like to be to see everyone flip so quickly. And again, it always I think about people today who could you could put into a time machine and take them back twelve years, and they would like disagree with their own selves, you know, they would like to see the world differently across because obviously some sort of psychological transformation has taken place. They have updated their priors across the board. And what they believed to be true the attitudes. They hold their values. So and then we saw this anymore. More objectively in what happened with the Arab spring. So if you could sort of just sit back and let you talk about I wanna know, you know, from the lens of the tight versus lose and the lens of of how norms shift what happened in the Arab spring. And then what happened in the aftermath of it such a great question. I mean, I think this is an example, in my view, like how culture really needs to be taken more seriously in foreign policy to help make predictions about you know, kind of rapid pendulum ships. We see around the world, whether that's our spring, whether that's ISIS like, you know, in these context, of course, multiple determined is a lot of reasons why they happen but cultures clearly wanted to norms are very central as well. And explain what was really interesting. It's something I call autocratic recidivism sort of a relapse so to speak, and it's pretty predictable from the point of view of Goldilocks. Know, you had a very tight culture very top down control autocrats known for getting people to distrust each other because if they trusted each other they would get rid of the autocrat. So it's very functional way of thinking from, you know, kind of you know, psychology perspective from autocrats, you know, how they run countries when you take out an autocrat, and that kind of system even if you can organize synchronized with people in your society to do that. What happens often, and this is showing some of our computational models. We have some data on the ground after Barak was what you see is that things tend to shift to the opposite extreme too total disorder to total chaos. It's normal snus too, extreme looseness, and that's really what we see happening in context like Egypt, and many other places to nesia was an exception. And I can talk about why that might be the case. But really what we could see is that when you go from an extreme from tightness too, extreme looseness. It's untenable something that people feel is, you know, something that psychologically aversive, it's uncertain. It's unpredictable and on the ground after Mubarak was ousted, I could see my surveys that when people reported feeling the sense of normal snus that was predicting their their support for Salafi government, and and and the Muslim Brotherhood. What you see is kind of autocratic shift this pendulum shift back to, you know, an even more autocrat regime now, of course, you know? It's a miserable existence to to you know, it's not as people are choosing this because they want a taxi that there's not compared to having a normal context that seems more safe more comfortable, and we see that all around the world. You know, we could see that with ISIS, for example, many people don't realize that they were actually welcomed in many areas in Iraq. We have some data to support that that in these cases also stream normal snus nowhere to coordinate huge security problems. Isis came in at least at first and provided the food services they provided Justice systems to help resolve petty disputes. They provided norms for social order, of course, that went into different direction as they became extraordinarily tight. But I just think it's important to recognize that when there's an enemy and looseness extreme looseness like you see an Arab spring or in. I says or even in the Philippines, people support detained in large part because he's providing social order where there was. Vacuum. This makes sense. And we need to be on the lookout for that. We need to look up now with. Yeah, we they defeated ISIS. But I wrote an article recently, that's just you know, what we need to keep our radar on norm strength in different contexts because they will other forces will rise and fill vacuums. I'm just like we've seen in the past. Well, how does this? I mean, I I'm kind of going all over the place because this is something that has been a really big mystery to me, I just you know, you look at I'm thinking the the individual who's caught up in one of these things like what happened with in the United States with LGBT norms. What happened in Egypt? Like, I'm thinking about the individual who's caught up in the say they Arab spring. I've talked about the other things so much Arab spring has had has had a lot of coverage on the show. But like I'm thinking about in an individual brain that's called up in this thing. And they're going from one one's like matrix of normalcy to another like, the feel like you. There has to be some resistance to to updating your your very model of what is and is not normal, and then and then what flows either upstream downstream from that like your attitudes about what should or should not be. And then what you do and do not value. And then what you do do not believe like this this complete rearrangement of like your unveiled. You know? The what's going like what if you could sort of take me an our talk about it any lengthy wish like how does an individual brain deal with this type of thing. Like in not talking about the. F from the group level, but at the individual level when you go from your under rule of an autocrat. And then you go through a revolution. And then you return to something that's very tight again. Like, how is the brain dealing with that? I mean, we did another ways we have no idea. The Matic way. But I mean, we do know from research by people like Adam walinsky that when people feel a sense of like, they have no control. They start seeing patterns in the world. They start wanting to see patterns in the well, they want some kind of mechanisms to help them feel in control. And I think that you know, it's also just a hierarchy like what are you willing to accept do? You wanna have order and security and food or do you wanna have, you know, democracy? And I think what we fail to realize that to the extent that there's no metal level structures. Connected people. So that can trust each other that when you have autocrats that are taken out often goes to the other extreme where you know, people don't trust each other. They can't coordinate things are getting really dangerous, and it makes sense in those contexts, you know, many of us would, you know, flip the switch like you're saying like and say, you know, what the alternative is better. You know? I mean, I think I get this is there's not much data on. But I would suggest that it would make a lot of sense of survival perspective. And I think that into nesia what's interesting, and I wrote about this a little in the book. And this is the context there were more mizzle level type of institutions meaning like there were civics association where people strangers could actually connect with each other and where they could build some kind of trust and social capital. So when you take out that autocrat, you don't have that huge cultural vacuum, you have some sense of connective in the population. And you know, this is kind of how we model it in our computational end, we look at the kind of measure levels structures that exist or lack thereof and the implications of this for autocrats taking over again after their ousted, and I just think it's important principle and its concepts taking off in Europe. And to some extent, the US is this notion of synchrony like we need some sense of synchrony. I mean, we're talking about large scale types of synchrony in terms of, you know, building houses and roads, and and. And and having security like police it's easier to synchronize takeout, a leader that it is to do those kinds of words l functions. So I think that studying societies and brains and everything from the role of synchrony is really fascinating direction. And you know, I think it's interesting in the book, I talk about how, you know same with the Goldilocks tight news too, much synchrony, and too little synchrony is problematic, and we can see that with brain research that some diseases, you know, are found because there's too much synchrony between areas of the brain summer the opposite. There's not enough synchrony across the brain. So synchrony is really interesting an incredibly important concept. So. When as you write in the book, if a culture collapses radicalization steps in. But then you also talk about this. We we're gonna get into what what can you do about this, and that would be some everything. But before that one last question about this. We're seeing this right now the surge populism surgeon nationalism. And then there's all this debate right now the is dates about immigration policy. How does the lens of tight versus loose? See all that. I mean, I think what is it really important understand is that these rides populist leaders and mesmerizing personalities is not really that unique nothing unique about this time period about this particular cultural moment, you know, what we can see in our data that when people feel threatened whether it's real or imagined just like they do in in the country level when they're facing diseases or disasters. They want stronger rules, and they want more autocratic independent leaders to help lead the way, it's something that's kind of deeply Aleutian era. As I mentioned. We could see that. When you increase that. You you tight norms, and what we could see around the world with in the US and France, for example, that people who feel threatened by ISIS or globalization or immigration. They tend to think their cultural context or to loose too permissive, and that in turn affecting their vote for Trump or lapenne or other populous leaders, and you know, what's interesting dynamic is that leaders can also play into that kind of good cultural psychologist, they activate and amplify and exaggerate threat. And they target groups that are objectively threatened like the working class, and they use that to gain popularity and so what's important is that this is the principle that you know, from an evolution put him you works. When threat is real this is important to tighten up when when threat is objective, but we have more and more is the inability to detect what's real west. Imagine what's fake in the lab. I can activate fake threatening titans. People must immediately doesn't mean it's gonna last, but because it's prime, but I think it's just a really important principle. And it suggests that we need to really kind of negotiate our perceptions of threat. I mean, there's also interesting data that by Elefsina at Harvard. That's been showing how really kind of out of tune people are with actual immigration issues in terms of crime in terms of what kind of jobs people are taking not just in the US. But in Germany as long as we stay in echo chambers. And we don't have these kinds of fact checks, and then people can really objectively or subjectively feel threatened and that drives their desire for greater tightness and auto credit leaders. God, we're so weird. It's been happening throughout history. I mean, what this is what's remarkable about it's not something. That's like unique to now. I think that there are as Thomas Friedman says there's just enormous disruption around the world and that people are feeling threatened. And I think we do need to actually develop a new context. United States more platforms and programs and structures to help people who have been blindsided by Goebbels ation is objective threats. But there's also an incredible amount of subjective threat. And then you could see again, you know, readership having you know, playing into that as well and stoking that we just developed a new threat dictionary in the process of that and to try to analyze speeches for how much they focus on threat, and we planted looking at how that's affecting the brain and behavior and so forth because this is what we see more and more in our, you know, in our politics. So it's important to start studying it from sort of psychological. All perspective. So in all around way. Like, what are we can we start doing now both as individuals and institutions to try to make a better world knowing what we know now about tight versus loose cultures. You know, I think it's interesting, you know, we sort of think about cultivating intelligence and emotional intelligence, and I have been in. You know, my whole career has been focused on trying to develop theories that really help us become a culturally intelligent. And so I think seek you is really something that is new is era. We have a lot more of. And of course, there's a lot of different ways that cultures vary, but tight-loose is really important one. And it's based on this very fundamental product of human nature, which is norms. And I think, you know, the first item it just to really understand, you know, this difference and understand what it confers to groups in terms of order versus openness, and why those things are both valuable in their own, right? And why they develop why certain cultures have to be titled loose for good reasons. I think helps us to have more empathy, and and it helps us to have less judgment. You know, I people often say that it's absolutely preposterous that you can't chew gum in Singapore. Bring gloves quantities into the country. And it's like, you know, what? Well, what if you were born in Singapore, and you lived in a place there were twenty thousand people square mile. What was happening in the eighties is that people to gum, and they were tough on the ground, and it was causing massive health problems. It was causing train Ston and Elvis malfunction because gum was wafting up these sensors, and so Quan, you just said, you know, guys, I think we're gonna have to ban gum, you know, this tasty treat, you know, we need to prioritize security over freedom for this particular issue. Now, I'm not going to say, I agree with all his policies for sure. But it just just that. Sometimes we can look at puzzling. Behaviors through a new perspective of why they make sense in that context. And why we are the way that we are like often culture is, you know, the first item agenda for CQ's understand how we've been socialized to adopt certain norms and values and how if we were accidentally born somewhere else, we might have a totally different world view. So I think it's important for just being able to diagnose differences on. Understand the consequences and stay why they developed, activate empathy. And of course, I think it's important because we need to understand tight moose to to enact change. I got a mention I think one of the agenda items to harness norms to loosen tight norms when it become outdated and to tighten loose norms. When they're not functioning, well, and that requires an understanding of the concept and its consequences, and and differences in rates of change in different cultures and ways the cultures change when it comes to different behavior. So I would just say that overall, the broader point is try to increase our cultural intelligence, and this this this fact affects not just travelers and global leaders, but affects dip should've diplomats, and it should affect organizational leaders, and even as parents, we're trying to help our kids understand norms. And and you know, negotiating warm strengthen our household how we can actually talk about it. And use the language to you know, to better our world because it starts with understanding the frame and the language and talking about it. And that's what I was excited to do with the book was to take a lot of research and try to make it more accessible, many of are scientists are completely accessible for general audience. And you know, this was a work of of love and pain. But it was Neely citing to really, you know, this is my first book for a general audience because I've been you know, in I retire. And Finally, I wrote this book for my dad, who's an engineer who said I can never understand what you're doing. And I said, okay, pop I'm going to write a book for you. And every chapter went to the pop test. And you know, he finally understands what I do. And I think it's really important that scientists and practitioners and policy makers are more dialogue around these things. We live in our own cultural worlds in themselves. And it's you know, it's something that I think we need to bridge. More of those those different worlds. To get this kind of academic information out there and useful for for policy and elsewhere. Did you need some cheap? That is it for this episode of the you're not so smart podcast links to everything that we talked about in this episode head to you are not so smart dot com. You can also get all the past episodes of the show at you or not so smart dot com, Stitcher, soundcloud, I tunes and soon soon on Spotify and other places basically anywhere. You can get a podcast. You can get the old episodes of this show. The opening music is cleft by care caravan palace. The interstitial music is by incompetent this music is by banjo pockets, if you'd like to support the show you can do that. But going to patriot patriotic dot com slash you're not so smart Pitino at any level would either show ad free higher levels. You can get t shirts signed books and posters and other stuff. Follow show on Twitter at not smart blog. Follow me at David mccranie and head over to Facebook in join the gigantic Facebook community for the show around quarter of a million people are checking in. With the show on Facebook. This just slash you are not so smart.

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'The Invisible Network' Podcast - 2019 Interns

The Invisible Network

15:28 min | 1 year ago

'The Invisible Network' Podcast - 2019 Interns

"Every summer fresh faces flood NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. They are the interns. Each new face comes with an idea tair a contribution to make to the agency when I walked through the gates. It's intimidating inspiring. There are so many buildings things and so many brilliant people inside them. The people who work here have made history for over sixty years and continue to do so long after your summer. Internship is over uh as full time employees we try our best to make the interns transition to goddard as easy as possible. The campus already looks much like the college campuses. The interns are used to still finding a cafeteria amongst the sprawling green lawns and stocky brick buildings can and be a feat. Finding your office impossible nonetheless over time you find your place. Eventually you can navigate your way to the dining hall. You know where the bathroom nearest your desk is. You start to feel at home. And that's when the real work begins. I'm emily capital and I'm Danny Baird. This is the invisible network space communications and navigation or Scan Program Office Overseas Nasr's communications mutations infrastructure and develops much of the agencies portfolio of innovative communications and navigation technologies in order to secure the future of NASA networks they have developed a workforce pipeline a program by which they train and inspire the next generation of NASA communications professionals. The centerpiece of that effort is the scan internship. Project or SIP as interim Basseterre for SIP at Goddard ended intern myself. I document the program in video. And stills I write about the interns and their projects I facilitate events most importantly I support the interns ensuring that each student student involved gets the most out of their summer. Experience interns are expected to complete a summer project under mentor. Interns also participate in professional development workshops and networking events. Jimmy Vado my mentor. Services intern coordinator at Goddard so our SIP entrance contribute to scan a wide variety. Heidi of roles across many diverse disciplines from cybersecurity to public outreach are injured projects further scans mission is pursue bold new lines of inquiry and they lend fresh fresh eyes to the communications challenges. Today passed insurance have enhanced at work capabilities Patented Communications Technologies and improve the efficiency of agency operations operations maneuver. Entrance had actually gone on to work for NASA furthering. The pipeline of new talent agency and then in turn becoming mentors themselves in return for their contributions scan provides our entrance with unique opportunities to grow their skills and interact with aerospace professionals entrance encouraged to incorporate creativity into the design in process. We inundate them with challenging ideas and new perspectives and they network with current and future leaders as they build the connections that will define their careers. Our interns leave the program program with a better understanding of the contributions they can make not only to NASA but to the world at large. What follows are interviews with this? Summer's batch of SIP interns at Goddard altered space flight center in Greenbelt Maryland and Glenn Research Center in Cleveland Ohio. We've asked them to speak about their experiences this summer. What they're working on one and why it matters? They're an incredible bunch of young people with passion and expertise students with as much to teach as they have to learn My name is Caitlin Singham and I live in Bethesda Maryland. I'm a rising senior at the University of Maryland College Park. I'll be starting my master's in systems engineering this fall and concurrently wrapping up my bachelors in Biological Sciences. So my summer project is lunar genus in what that means is essentially looking yet whether GPS signals and other similar signals can be used to navigate to the mood my work entailed largely using Matlab and under specifically a set of scripts developed by Goddard. Four Matlab called the orbit determination. Toolbox to simulate a genus. So That's global able navigation satellite system signal performance at altitude lunar distances and so essentially looking at signal quality signal strength rings and satellite availability. And so I did that. And I compared data from actual flight so ms and go sixteen actually had GPS EPS receivers on board and so compared data from those flights with the simulation results to make sure the simulation was working and then once I was confident in the results they're moved onto the actual lunar simulation so used the artists three trajectory specifically part of it. That's it's called the near Rectilinear Halo orbit or our our aim. Hi It's just a a halo right in front of the Moon between the Earth and moon actually and so. I looked at that part to see what the satellite availability signal. uh-huh strength all these metrics. See what it was and the results seem to be very promising. My name is Ben Group. I grew up around Philadelphia. But I'm currently going score in Atlanta I'm doing my PhD in optics and photonics which basically physics with light so lasers and that stuff. The nature of my project is related. Waited too deep space communications so something out space and need to communicate something back on earth and one of the main problems that is atmospheric turbulence. Which Kinda can degrade read your signal when you're sending something that far and going through the atmosphere so the main part of my project is modeling that turbulence and then we're that allow us to kind of mitigate or or overcome that in the real world if you don't account for these effects you can't really do communications with objects in space and if you can't communicate properly you might lose? Is Your space craft your satellite. You might be able to get the data you want. I'm Noah Cowper. I'm a graduate student at the University of Wyoming studying physics. I'm Amy Hatfields sales. I'm in engineering physics student at New Mexico State University. I'm Jacob Plowman. I'm studying astronomy and astrophysics at the University of Wyoming. So the nature of our projects. which is that? We were tasked to develop a quantum communication protocol and be able to test it on a high altitude balloons to simulate space We were doing this in to prove as a proof of concept of quantum communications so michaels for the project were to develop the communications this protocol a simulated and be able to create entangled. photons my goal on this project was to develop and program the flight protocols as well as the balloon payload my job was to design the optical con stations for the transmit and receiving payload our team totalled seven interns. We all worked together and collaborated to make a proof of concept plan for the entire tire summer a created all of the diagrams. All of the initial codes and all of the simulations for this project. So that next summer when and if we all come back we can just hit the ground running with construction and testing and then hopefully launch working together was a great experience because it really resembles how a group of people would work in the real world and so it was really a great learning process and a great experience chance to be able to have my name's Nicosia will be a first year Master Soon Aerospace Engineering West Virginia University. This come fall Miami. Cleveland need it and this is my second time journey. Heckler Research Center so my project is summer deals with analyzing the communication links to you and from the power propulsion helmet which is the first module of the deep seats gateway watching twenty twenty two and the main thing. We're really concerned with the summers. The project is to make sure that the antennas on board are a proper position so that they don't have to point through the propulsion clue that becomes problematic because having to propagate a radio signal through the propulsion plume creates kind of an additional medium or another thing. The signal is transferred through while usually. That's not a big issue with things like clouds or anything like that with an iron propulsion. Plume it actually. Free could cause a signal Miss Earth entirely. I am names. MD originally from New York and I'm a PhD PhD student at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Studying Computer Science in the advanced network architectures group. That's my summer. Project is to hugh automate compliance with security controls defined by the National Institute of Standards and technology the National Institutes Standards and technology. Elegy is a government organization that defines lots of things standards for security for chemical safety all sorts of things. Thanks so a lot of this project was just sort of figuring out what systems we have in place for our security right now and what our automation needs are figuring out how to get access to different systems how to interface with them and then eventually ended up writing a script that will let us do. Some bulk imports court of new information into the systems. That people can use it more easily. I'm making a CD-ROM. And I'm from Chatham New Jersey. I'm a rising senior at university. Ever Steve Maryland College Park studying physics and astronomy. This summer I created a test bed to help evaluate a certain component that that we're using for a commercial off the shelf optical communication ground station using commercial off the shelf parts is important because it could make the ground station much more replicable and making more inexpensive station. My Name Is Grace Mary. I am from ZANESVILLE. Things Will Ohio. But I've been living in Cleveland for the past three years for school. I'm studying animation with a focus in three modeling. I don't really have a single the big project. I'm working on smaller projects throughout the whole summer. All of them are three D. modeling or animation. Based I bill. A couple couple's three models to be used in some VR. Demos data educate visitors to the center. So the thing about building branding models or just any kind of artists work in general as it's kind of the bridge between all the science stuff and the general public so these images edges and models kind of makes it easier to understand because it's something you can physically see. My name is Monica. Sarraf and I am from Herndon. Virginia I'm currently at Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Alexandria. Virginia I worked on a recommendation for what cloud platform the near Earth network should use in order To move their data storage from local to the cloud. The non has a lot of high data rate missions which means that they have a lot of data that they're bringing down from space and in order for them to be able to store that they have to have an easy accessible way to maintain all of their data. And that's why I was brought onto this project so in the future I plan to work in a field where I can combine both my passion for Cybersecurity and my passion for biotechnology so that I can help people with devices like pacemakers and things like that where they have to have security further devices which isn't necessarily in existence right now because because it's not given as much importance as it really should be. As the summer comes to a close students returned to the universities with technical Michael and professional skills under their belts more importantly they leave knowing they've had a positive impact on the agency's Mission on July Twentieth Twenty Nineteen Nasa Celebrated The Fiftieth Anniversary of the moon landing the Apollo missions many of the interns mentors were apart of the Apollo generation. Ration- those inspired by trail-blazing Americans soaring through space and Neil Armstrong's immortal words all corrupt oil group. This intern class has seen the Apollo footage unheard Armstrong's words. They understand the importance of the Apollo missions to Nafta's history but fifty years have come and gone. They look forward to the future. So these insurance will no Artemis Nasr's next generation missions to the moon the Orion capsule which will carry astronauts to and from the Moon Moon looks much like Apollo Command Service module which served a similar purpose in nineteen. sixty-nine its destination and appearance however are where the similarities end. And when NASA returns to the lunar surface we will leave more than flags and footprints. The agency will create a sustainable human presence there using the moon as a stepping-stone towards Mars and beyond expanding humanities reach into space NASA overturn with new knowledge and opportunities compared to Apollo The science will be more advanced. The technology cutting edge that data richer the artis generation will know a different moon than Apollo far. Far from Greenie analog footage shown on televisions. They will know a moon. Delivered in high definition digital video. Live to their televisions tablets and phones phones and who knows a scan. Intern might just be the one focusing the camera. The invisible network network is a NASA podcast presented by the space communications and navigation or scam program. This special edition of the podcast was written produced and recorded by NASA interns. Emily Cavanaugh and Victoria would burn with me Danny Baird. The episode was released in October of Twenty nineteen at at the close of International Space Week editorial support provided by Matthew Peters are public affairs officer. Is Peter Jacobs special. Thanks to scan the policy and strategic communications lead far Audi as well as intern coordinators. Jimmy Osservato and Tim Gallagher. The next season of this podcast. We'll begin released in the coming months. Be sure to subscribe and reconnect with the invisible network for the full text of this episode and related images visit that NASA dot Gov slash invisible to apply to scan internship project opportunities make a profile on intern dot NASA Dot Gov and keep an eye out for projects objects that interest you. We hope to work with you soon.

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Canceling of Diversity Training w/ Dr Taharee Jackson

Capt. Hunter's Podcast

1:38:41 hr | Last month

Canceling of Diversity Training w/ Dr Taharee Jackson

"Welcome to another episode of the hunters. Podcast podcast bedstead towards written between the police and the communities. Sir thank you so much between me. And i really really appreciate love. That has been coming in So make sure that you rate subscribe and share. Follow me on these different platforms. Instagram twitter. Both of those are cpt l. Hunter following facebook. We've been chiming in a little more on the facebook page. Captain hunters podcast You know you can always send me an article simulink Through these different modes and methods and mediums to review video. Been trying to do a little bit more about Make sure that you pick up the book. Police reform retired police captains perspective on the evolution of law enforcement and how to fix or improve the criminal. Justice system. actually is you pick that up l. u. l. u. dotcom lou dot com or head over to the website hunter police training dot com the email of course cpt l. hunter at g. dot com. Some your likes your dislikes thoughts stories. anyone that you want me to interview You wanna be interviewed Something talk about police reform in remember. We talked about only police reform. We talk about a lot of the other things. I have to do with the community. I really believe that. The community needs to be improved. We need to improve our communities in order to improve the relationship with the police and the criminal justice system and with our politicians. And there's so much correction that we need to do and gopher you can't support the podcast cash out then. Mo pay pal pay policy p. c. a. p. t. capped hunter Cash up our c. T. l. hunter The website is onto police. Training dot com. And from there you can access all my different services. Take a look at what we got going on. You need a public speaker on on any of these particular. Let me know. I'm your man If you have any different trainings Testing that you need preparation for Once again i am your man what we got going on here. Oh listen i before we get into the episode here. I got to give a public Apology to dr to harry jackson. Now we did this episode. When president trump had cancelled diversity training Well for that. We did this episode quite quite some time ago around the time that president trump cancelled his diversity training so we did this episode and facebook live great episode. Great interview are always dr jackson. And so after that episode that up so lived on Lives on youtube. Lives on the facebook paid cut captain podcasts and both of those platforms however i thought i had released the audio version of this so i do not in Once and then. I had dr hard jackson on again because she wrote another piece hypothetical racism which will be the next audio. So i want to say thank you to my special guest dr tahari jackson my ray of sunshine there. She's just she's just a delight if if the audience could see the the text messages in the bogies that she says she's just a bubbling. Got so thank you so much for for being on the show. I really really appreciate it. so can you tell us what you've been up to these last few weeks. Yeah so i. This has been a really. This is gonna busy summer. So i've been writing. I'm united tonight. Hopefully are going to be able to talk about the anti racism piece that i wrote in response to the executive order You know i'm a consultant. Dr tahari consulting's have all help all sorts of organizations sort of get it together with regard to their diversity equity inclusion of belonging efforts I yeah i have been working the american institute of physics. ap as their diversity equity belonging accessibility officer and continuing to do work You know in the community with with whoever needs it. So it's been a busy time and it would have been even busier because So many of my partners are federal agencies and federal employees. So so so. That's why i wrote the peace very very nice very in a very nice So to the audience out there make sure you check out. The previous conversation between dr jackson and myself It was anti racism work. George floyd i'm ann arbor and more. And that was the name of the doctor to harry. Jackson and one of my proudest moments is that i was able to actually pronounce your name about butchering it. Because i had this bad habit of butchering my guests name. Which i always feel bad about you know so. I'm just going to try to reach out to like john. Smith and stuff like for going forward. Because i just can't. I can't mess those up. So dr jackson if that helps off it's by actually. I actually liked the uniqueness of your name names you know anytime you nickname grown up here in the northeast it's mostly in. I'm not saying negative way. It's mostly irish catholics right. So you meet all johns. And mike in steve's and all that kind of stuff again that's not a slight on anyone's name them just saying but so when i meet people you know with africa names or with unique names such as yourself or even you know Really eastern european names right. It's really it's it's nice to meet some some some diversity you know. Even my name is lawrence you know some anglican name or whatever so so so so to the audience out there. Make sure you check out the those episode The audio versions uncapped podcasts. Available apple podcast. Google play spotify and wherever podcasts are available And please consider supporting captain hunters podcast. I am retired. So i don't wanna live out in the woods So please support support cap hunters podcast to cash out. Pay pal ben mo- Dollar in episode fifty cents an episode. Something like that. I've been putting eight episodes a month with. I didn't even realize i was doing so. She could do something five ten dollars a month or something along those lines I really would appreciate it really would appreciate it And make sure you. Rate subscribe chick hunters podcast right so I'm getting used to this. Kind of Intro type of thing you can see. Yeah you got to put it out there. Otherwise i won't get out there Yes so to hello to the viewers. Out there in emory j mill says yes doctor. Jackson is sunshine yes. She sunshine in in human form right. She just. That's my former student from the university of maryland college park and i can always count on him to support me so you can all that money to hear me lecture. Aren't you finished. You know hearing you lecture. So yeah he's he's a real one that means right because he paid you now he just wants to do it for free just for free just just just the race i can imagine. Just sit in your class. i probably would. I probably would have left that class. Thank you and i could take this world right. I can just do nothing. I can't do this. This woman has so inspired me so shit So to to anyone out there We are on a special a platform so we are streaming onto youtube. Facebook and periscope So i cannot see you in the neither one of us can see you so make sure that you say hi just like emory or give us a thumbs up or something along those lines So that way you can. We can acknowledge you. And if you have questions. For dr jackson a weekend We can make sure that we get your questions. So dr jackson. Let's get into it. Let's get into it so once again. You wrote another stunning piece. That i read in medium Is that where you publish it or is it other places as well. Yes i all summer. Long i was trying to get together. Dr tahari dot com. That is coming actually the end of the month so that website is going to have a blog and people who enjoy my writing can go there so yeah so it'll coming later in very good okay. So in the meantime you wrote this piece in it was on medium but it wasn't anywhere else looking time or or us okay And so again. I have at this time because because sometimes i don't have it so that's all i'm an anti-racist trainer in trump cancelled me. Here's why i'm dangerous. For patients but hopeful awesome awesome title. So you and i. So what again was i saw that i broke my cell phone and i got to talk to So let's talk about first of all trump cancelling this antiracist training. And i didn't know about it until the debate Presidential debate where he probably had covert at the time where we don't know yet are always telling we'll get into that a little bit later so he. He cancelled training. What were your thoughts when he cancelled the training. So i'm so to specific I got wind of it on september fifth just about a month ago. And i believe that it's called on the executive order on combating race and sex stereotyping I i hope that I hope that's the correct term. Because i i just want to make sure that we're talking about zim executive order but he essentially what happened was You know he. Essentially four branches of the government that are affected by a executive orders because federal employees and officials have. Let me know that there are that that doesn't affect everyone so we'll talk about later. But he essentially said. We're not gonna spend taxpayer dollars in federal funds on diversity training and specifically anti racism training and specifically critical race theory He said that it was unpatriotic. He said it was un-american. Later in the first presidential debate he said that what we ask people to do in those trainees is insane and he said it was sick and so basically what he did was he said we are not. We are stopping all training. Efforts that relate diversity anti-racism training so and that affects by the way that affects not only people within the federal government but it affects contractors on it affects a federal grant tease rights. You've run if you've won a federal block grant for example or benefit from that funding that you know people are confused about what in effect has a ripple effect for affecting universities in an industry. So i've got a copy of an industry letter here. And and so it it it it has more as a larger ripple effects that i think he understood or maybe he did understand because his point was to not talk about racism and not specifically to talk about his size. Racism institutional racism and You know and how people can can can be less racist So yeah i. I am disappointed by that. But i have some other thoughts. Which is why. Which is why. I read Which is right. Wrote the article very nice. What do think. And i know none of us can read. It's mind mind. I know none of us can read his mind. What do you think was the catalyst behind this. Type this memo. I mean besides you all being dangerous in in. What do you think i mean. Do you think someone was in his ear. What do you think that what do you think about so let me just let me set up my answer this way and i hope this isn't Roundabout but i've been to the white house several times just sort of like physically in white house and i know how close the west wing as the v. And so i would imagine that every time. There is some sort of national crisis or national dialogue. Someone comes into the oval office with a with a a an option package. Right the decision making option package and they say president trump on this hand on the left hand with this is the most appropriate thing to do and say at this time. This is timely. It's informed by science. It's backed by data. It's evidence-based in empathic and under is informed. Here's the thing that that that an excellent leader do another one is almost like over here and have almost like an inverse hippocratic oath. Where not only are you going to do some harm. But you're going to worsen the situation in his not empathic. Uninformed is not backed by science. So which would you choose. And i feel like unfortunately i. This is not going to be a trump bashing session for me. Because that's unproductive. I mean i mean i actually able to go along with some of his programs it used to. It's that's not helpful. But i feel like more times than he should. He tends to gravitate to the thing on the right and let me just give you some examples right so in two thousand seventeen we had an army surgeon david johnson who lost his life in like a go song toga battle in new share and so the left hand option was. Hey this there's a recently traumatically widow woman. Her name is misha john. It's wife of david and what you should say is thank you for your sacrifice a military family. Thank you for. His docker will honor his his his legend and his legacy. And we are so sorry that this happened and then over here you have on any new one it was signing up for losers and soccer's that so then the second example is okay. We have charlottesville right. We have a group of of of of of neo. Nazi white supremacist protesters and they literally murder of a young lady by the name of heather higher so she literally loses her life trying to sort of be an anti-racist protester what we could have said to her her mother. She was survivor mother. Thank you so much raising a young lady who was courageous and bold enough to live her of being an anti-racist. We are so sorry that this happened to you. And we're going to continue to do to hold national dialogue and to work on our racial relations in this country that we that's the appropriate and over here. You have well. I mean they're good people on both sides and then finally. This is the most relevant example. This is what we're talking about so the left hand response to what's happening now is mr president. We need you to read the room. The country is in pain and they are suffering. We the country's literally on fire based on manmade climate change but we are also in turmoil. People in fifty states have now protested racism disproportional Police brutality and racism and murder. The institution of law and so this is literally the largest civil rights movement history so people are paying. People are protesting in the streets. So what we need you to say is. We are going to continue the national dialogue on race. We are going to come up with action plans. We're going to do a racial equity audit in the federal government. We are going to have block grants. We're going to have a secretary of racial equity and social justice a cabinet level position rexel heroes of things he could have done on the left. If you will and on the right we have. Let's cancel all racism and antiracism training all diversity training at the very moment in history when we need it the most when it went. Everyone is equally outraged because something is amiss right in our criminal justice system in policing in law enforcement for the first for one another time in his direct. 'cause we were. We were ready to talk about this in the sixties but everyone is outraged. Everyone saw amman. Arbery get gunned down in his own area in his neighborhood. Everyone saw george. Floyd die like a dog in the street we are. We're still trying to understand how you know. Brianna team was got more justice than she did. Even though she literally got shot in her sleep. So i mean so at the very moment in history when it would be most helpful not only resurrected but really to amplify and enhance national dialogue. And then come up with a bevy of solutions and programs and reforms that that really eat away at institutional racism this administration decides that it's unpatriotic and that bear going to essentially de-fund this training and so that's what's so disappointing about about this leadership at this time So i hope that answered the question that i know. We're gonna talk more about you. Know why. i think it was a huge mistake. You certainly into question Into the audience out there. If you guys have any questions going forward many people may not even know about this So so let's get into it What do you think what do you think the ramifications are going forward with this. What do you think about that. Do you mean as unlike the consequences of people just shorts. Sure why not. Okay this this would actually So this would be a good time to bring up the points in my article. So i'm just if you don't mind i'm just gonna kinda get into that because i answered this question right all why. It's so important to keep going and not only to continue whatever diversity and equity and inclusion and belonging efforts we had before war would at this moment in history when people are are are literally. They are clamoring to have the dialogue. I as a diversity. Colts consulted i get calls every day. Can you talk to us about racism in hiring. Can you talk to us. We have low. Morale african american employees are suffering. You can you know so. Can you help us strategize how to get through this time. So i just i brought up these requesting the peace in and i thought i'd mentioned now because they really do answer your questions so one of the things that high quality diversity training and anti racism work does is that it rests people out of their tendency to just talk about surface level racism right which is interpersonal relations. We love to have implicit bias. Training we love to have unconscious bias training. We love to just sort of say okay. We're gonna work on interpersonal relationships. Were going to work on microaggressions so the way we treat each other is really the crux of the work. We need to do and that's important but good anti racism training good diversity. Training helps people understand that. Something monstrous as racism. It's a multi headed hydra so there's individual racism there's institutional racism and things like policies. Everything from how you can wear your hair to help people sort of get promoted. How people get hired that kind of thing and then you have cultural racism which is sort of the fear that people have especially of black people because our color alone is a threat. And then we've got larger issues like socio historical racism which is by black athletes for example people. Throw bananas and you know and people like us to monkeys and gorillas and primates because the science of the day for so many centuries has said that black people are literally closer to animals and specifically monkeys. then they are to human. That's why we only got to be three fifths of a person wreck so the first thing is that good anti-racism training good diversity. Training doesn't allow you to stay in the area of kindness campaigns. Yes it is incredibly important for us to treat each other well at work but that's not all there is right. That's not all there is. The second thing is that you know really diversity. Training really good anti racism work shifts the burden away from people of color and specifically black people. Right and what i mean by that is i do this work. I always work with the group that has the most power so we talked about this board before. If i'm going to work on anti sexism. I work with men. If i'm gonna work on homophobia i work with straight people and we're going to do the work of anti racism than i do. That work primarily with white people because white people have the most racial power so instead of getting together all your people of color in an organization. Over-burdening them making them serve on a task force. A working group a diversity committee making them spend extra time coming up with readings recommendations and celebrations for your heritage month. I actually end up working with white people to say here's how to set up an anti racist workplace. Here's how you can be better. Allies and cobb was for the people of color around you and for once the people of color gets in their offices writing and being productive in publishing flourishing. And do all doing those things because the real work of anti-racism is with the group. That has the most racial power and then finally the third point that i made is that You know racism is a form of bondage and anti-racism sets you free it sets white people free because that's a more honest way of living. It's an opportunity for you not to feel guilty about your power and an underprivileged. It's an opportunity for you to claim your privilege and claim your power so that you can conscientiously co-opt it and use it for good so you can call up your power. There's power in power so we know from first civil rights movement wreck where even white people were getting lynched and hose and bitten by dogs. We know that the collective power of all of us in cross racial coalition accomplishment accomplish more than just people of color especially more than people black people and finally. It's just you know. Racism costs you your humanity. And that's too expensive. So one of the things that diversity an anti-racism training does is that it allows you to live a more honest a war fully human life because you're not actively oppressing people even if you're just trying to be ignorant about even you're just trying to will fully be willfully ignorant and say i don't see kids. I just c- color or i'm colorblind. Or we should all get along or there's only one race the human rights like you may not be a malicious overt clansman or neo nazi. But what if you're not actively dismantling racism you were actively benefiting from it and you are and you're and you're not living sort of you know the best life that you cook so i just wanted to say that the consequence of this executive order is that we just continue to do exactly what we're doing now and what we've been doing so we continue to have the same comes. We're going to see more videos of innocent unarmed black people. Losing their lives. We're going to see more people in federal agencies and other organizations not thriving and leaving your you know you're trying to retain this diverse workforce and you're gonna end up losing the very people that you're trying to attract and retain so the consequences are major. And i know you didn't ask me this. But i just wanna say even when you think about the. The data about diversity are on our side the science of diversity and the team science based on what we know about how groups formulate the best solutions to complex problems that requires diversity. Biodiversity neuro deserve mercy diversity of life experience so even at you can't go down the road of the moral and the democratic imperative. You can't even deny the science. You can't even denied the science that it's best to have a diverse workforce So yeah i just. I just wanted to offer those three points because of the consequences of following this order and then i can give you some examples of resistance if we talk about. We will talk about us. So i was reading some other stuff and was talking about. Just exactly what you were talking about the about. The science and that actually companies actually make more money. The morale goes up Amongst these employees. And everything. Like that. So i don't know once again we neither one of us knows if he actually digested this information and said listen. You know when when you have this diversity. Training the morale goes up amongst all these different people white people included and and the companies make more money. He definitely should have listened to that. I mean to anything else. I mean so. So so we'll get into that In to say hello to everyone once again emery to a woman shawn sakir In levada sweeney That's another ray of sunshine there. She's another one she she. She's like a nine point five on the on the on the bubby scale their long so she says Levada says a horrified the most racial power. What what do you mean by that. So no i mean that's great so so one of the things one of the ways. I do my diversity training in one of the ways i approached. This work is that we have to recognize that his individuals. We are multiple identify ryan. So in my one body. I have multiple identities some of which render me advantaged and empowered. And maybe even privileged and others of which don't really do anything for they rendering marginalized minority ties and actually disadvantage. So what i mean by the most racial power. We can go on any identity right so if you are for example you know a straight person in this country a straight person you got the most power through based on your sexual identity right you you i mean because we we are hetero normative society and we have decided it straight. People are normal right. We normalize that so if you are a man you have the most based power. That's why every president every president since the inception of this country has been a man and now that we have a vice presidential candidate who has one it's blowing people's minds. I mean we've had other geraldine. Ferraro other women sarah palin i'm not. I'm not a racing compliments. But basically what. I'm saying along every identity. There's a dominant group. And then there's everyone else and racially white. People have the most racial power because we live in a society. that's that's dominated by white. Racial dominance so when i met by that is they have the most as as the favored group as the normalized group as the group who controls most of what happens in this country access to finance institutions but law from lawmakers to law enforcers. When i say they have the most racial power it means that they have the mo the they have the greatest ability to to create anti-racist conditions because they have the the greatest ability to create racist conditions. And it's so weird right because you if you're in the dominant group you're both the problem and the panacea if you're a man you can cause sexism but if you learn to be a good ally and accomplish for women you can cause an awful lot of anti racism you can dismantle sexism so if you're a white person you know you've got an incredible amount of power based on the value of your whiteness and the power there right but you also have power to dismantle races. So that's what. I met the most racial power very good. Not i'd start certainly clarify things in labonte says that clarifies things for her as well so let's continue with that with that theme. The power frederick douglass years ago said a power. Nothing without a demand started the man. So are we going to Is it realistic to expect people to give up power. I have so tune antics semantics matter language shapes thought. I don't how i feel about people saying well why people have to surrender. Power share power. It's not pot right so if we think about justice and human rights civil rights. It's not pi. It's not fix so more for you doesn't mean less reme- right like more civil rights for you doesn't mean fewer for me so i don't know how i feel about people saying surrender about. I think that what what the way i like to think about it is i think we should have proportional representation right so for example in congress we should have at least fifty two percent female lawmakers. Because that's what the entire world looks like that. That would be that would make sense for the people who are making decisions. I think the supreme court and all parts of government should have more working class people right or people who grew up more but never forgot what it was like to war record. I think it needs more socioeconomic diversity. So i mean when i say you know when people say share power or surrender power. I let me just say this people of color art looking to take anything from you. If you're out again can you say that again. A little bit louder when you're not looking to take anything from you. We are not looking to take anything. We are to experience american freedom. We are looking to experience. You know Liberty and the same freedoms that white people and men and straight people and christians and all the other able bodied people. We're looking to enjoy our civil liberties and our freedom equally. That's not taking away from anyone else's freedom so i just you know i mean i i think i mean. I think the only other way that i could describe it as this right in the. Maybe that'll take us down will let me just say it so. I just think it's interesting. How you know. Sometimes when people think about diversity and think about like what i call inverted our turn ism. They're like all people of color if we allow them to come into power out. They're gonna they're gonna treat us poorly they're gonna treat us the way we know we treat them now or they're gonna take over all the good stuff so let me. Just let me just make comparison. So i took one of my degree. I went to harvard as an undergraduate. And when i was there twenty years ago we had seventeen hundred spots right and so one of the worries about affirmative action. Is that but if you open it up too much or you were the standards you know you could end up with a a class an entire class of seventeen hundred people you know who were all people of color they would be asian and they would be black and they would be of african descent and my question about the question is okay first of all. Why is that problematic. Because harvard open. Sixteen thirty six and nobody had issues with the original racism of having wealthy white up non jewish men right and then the other thing is what would make you feel entitled to every slot at harvard. So the point that you don't want anyone of color or anyone who violates meritocratic principles to get there when it comes to congress it's literally a millionaire's club and i don't begrudge their success. But if you say if you say we should have more women in congress we should have more people of color. We should have more masters of other languages. We should have more people were able. We should more. Lgbtq plus people what people were going offensive. Oh my gosh. we can't just have. We can't have okay. Well what would make you think that every seat in congress should go to a white man. What would make you think that every president should be a white man so the questionnaire becomes the. That's more of a question of on a discussion about entitlement. But i always taught my students to not only question but to question the questions. And i think sometimes we asked the wrong questions very good. So i'm going to. I'm going to push back. A little will not push back. Because i agree with you. But i wanna i wanna use address this So tha- that's the pie. We're talking about right we start. We said it wasn't pie. And i agree with you. But there's only a one hundred senator seats for one hundred and fifty whatever fifty one or whatever it is congressional seats so we give it to all these people seventeen hundred seats at harvard if if it's not all males a white males okay if we open it up and now there's twelve hundred. What whatever number want to throw in there. It's less for us and i think that that's the problem. They think that it's less for us. Affirmative action is this. What the lawsuit's about it. It's lowering the standards as they as they think or i think in some cases it was which i agree with whatever So this is the pie. They don't want to give a college seats. I don't wanna give congressional seats. And i want to give up seats under city board state boards etc etc etc etc. That's the pilot. They don't wanna give up okay so My response to that is That that what you just described is the embodiment of what i would call Reverse racism right like if we open the floodgates or change the rules. Then i as a white person or i as a man or is straight person or is a christian or is an able bodied person would then be discriminated against okay. So you're outraged by the notion of reverse racism. Why are you so content with the racism we have today because it benefits me because you're in power and you have control and the irony i should i give it up bit to take all the way down the logical. So let's say. Harvard decides you know what for the class of twenty twenty two or twenty twenty three We're only going to admit black males riley we just. We've decided that based on our long tradition of having males and he started as a seminary we are only going to admit blackmails. Does that mean that everybody else. Who's eligible to go to harvard. Can't go to college right like so. I know you saying like oh but with the pious harvard. Like it's either harvard bus but again this goes back to the argument about entitlement. What would make you think that you are entitled to a slot at harvard because you are white breath. What would make you think that after. Let's see twenty twenty minutes. Sixteen thirty six probably about four hundred would make him think that after centuries of literally being a hundred percent of the clouds that in twenty twenty you can't go to stamford or you can't go to yale because you know what other people have. Color has to do every day. Go to other colleges. Because they're they don't feel entitled and they don't get admitted. So i mean i it's. It's not a pie rex. Because we're at the end of the day we're talking about high quality i e league education. What make you think that the rightful place that the rightful composition of harvard is white males. What again we have to. We have to think about how to decolonize are thinking and we've got to think a little bit more about this entitlement argument because it's making people think that they're going to have to give up something that they won't even thing have right. That's the irony of it. All right but i think that they have it though. I do think that they had. I think that they think that they have the ability to not only the colleges. But i can go into a job. I don't have to compete. I've i've read i. I read a lot of probably be too much of racist literature. Quite honestly and they're saying that Yeah why can't i just live in these communities. Why can't i Entitlement reform what The i've heard racist say they don't have any problem with with entitlements or helping people they just don't want to go to black people that is that is literally the argument. That is literally the argument about about obamacare. That's the argument and so there's something in certain people that just don't want to share. I know you keep saying. It's not a pie. But i'm gonna push back and i think they think that it is a pie and that they think that it it. It's all it's. I'm if i i i would be willing to cut off my my nose despite my coffee. My nose to spite my face right Nobody gets health care. Because i don't want black people to get that is that is insane in rational thinking we're living through a pandemic in they still want to gut this thing. It's still in the courts and all this kind of stuff right now. So this is this is the way. Unfortunately that i think a lot of people think They would rather people not get stimulus checks because on undeserving. People are going to get them. And so i think i think that's part of the problem. I want to talk a little bit about The treating them badly argument If if we allow certain people to become the dominant persons. Then they're gonna treat is the way that we treated them. Can you expand upon that. A little bit i. This is kind of this sound hyperbolic but like hear me out so you know. My background is as a professor and as a know sort of researcher. Who does this grant funded research. And one of one of the things that i did for years was to follow anti-racist white people right first anti-racist teachers the urban teachers who work in hoon's all over the united states then i followed the people who teach them that i followed a you know a few public intellectuals who identifies anti-racist white people and i was trying to understand what was so easy for them like jane elliott. Ah tim wise a christine leader. Paul gorski joke vegan. I was trying to understand why it was so easy for them to buy fully into anti-racism because inherently i was like oh my gosh. It doesn't benefit you like like you said it's a pie. You're gonna have to give something up. And so one of the things that came out of that work was they. Were able to say that. Part of the reason that white people can't fully by into anti-racism is number one because they know whether they're willing to say it or not hal. People of color are being treated right now. They will claim that all is well. They will claim like they'll make a meritocratic argument. Like if you work hard you can overcome anywhere anything right. If you just do the right thing. If you just interact with the police nicely you'll get a pass and get a warning and you will drive away in your car with no consequence just like so. A lot of people are like no no no. There are no problems. But i think what came out on. My work was the greatest fear that white people have as that they is that when things are equitable right when we finally do reach the state of of of equity right where people are actually getting not only what. They deserve what they needed. The whole time They are concerned not only that they're gonna lose something that they're going to surrender sunny but they're not going to have power control but that we are going to treat them poorly and that we are going it's again inverted our turn is we're going to treat them in the future the same way that patriots. Now now here's the beauty and here's why that's right. You know what. I'm thinking about a leader that i want to have in my life when i think about president because this is a democracy when i think about even a boss or a ceo of a company me a boss who has been through some things jitney president. Who's paid half a utility bill. Give me a president. He had their phone cut off and their electric turned off. Jazz me a president who's had to eat a mustard ketchup. Sandwich gives me a president who had to drink cool clear kool-aid which is just watering and the reason. I want a representative leader. Like that is because they understand the struggles of poverty. If they're a person of color they might understand the struggles of racism. They might if it's a woman like a light camera harris. She might understand some of the glass ceiling limitations of being a woman and only getting paid seventy five cents so so if anything gives me. An impact leader gives me an impact leader. Who understands the konin american struggle and this is what we're seeing in the house in the white house now. We don't have an empathic leader. We have a leader who is steeped in billions of dollars. We have a leader who went to write a private military school surrounded by other advances in power. So we're seeing the results of that. And that's why he can't relate and that's why he's out here canceling the very diversity and equity and inclusion anti racism training dealt with heal our country but because he can't relate so i don't think again why people need not worry that we are going to treat you the same way you treat us. I don't think that's the nature of anybody who has truly been oppressed and again. We're not looking to take anything from you. So i think they i think their fears are on greatly exaggerated. Well well search. Well said and i hope that listening to you and others seriously seriously Can can help the come and swayze spheres because because as you mentioned it. It's it's sort of slavery in inhibits us all. I think that people should read that book. When affirmative action was white cats nelson. Yeah really really good book and there was no issues with you know. Gi bills and homestead act. And all this kind of stuff but as soon as we okay we want to create a great society and all the oh being racist In on what so Do you think that there's any olympic some comments here and See again. I wanna thank everyone for coming on Joe norfleet says she saying something. S in Emery says Frederick douglass was a feminist supportive of suffrage for women that was that was that came down to the voting. Right was nurse situation. Everything was all cool until till blackman got the vote before white women right. That was a became a problem. That became a problem right and here. It is by again right. Well we'll support you guys. We're on the same side. Whoa wait a minute now. We don't we don't want to get into too far ahead of us so See levana says Right the entitlement is is illogical. I do wanna i another time. We'll continue with that. Because because i listened to the to them to them in speaking. I really shouldn't have trouble sleeping at night when i listen to these fools rant and rave stuff All this is good. Thank you again. the levada Insane irrational are perfect ways to describe their thoughts and behaviors and it is a dangerous way of thinking in behaving as well and this is what is causing so so much of what's going on today. Maybe we'll get into that. What's going on today with the attempted kidnapping or the plot to kidnap the governor governor there. Yeah i have. I use that photo my article for reason or reasons. Yeah i have a. I have an expert coming on to talk about specifically you know that kind of thing. We schedule this before for that He did ask me. If i wanted to speed bump it up but i was like we'll just keep it because i don't wanna get ahead of and so we have a narcissist in the white house. Tell us how you really feel. There's f scott fitzgerald Wrote about racial dominance entitlement in the great gatsby ghezzi gatsby. I think it is when we had Tom buchanan ranting about racist book. Read theresa. Connah's i broke narcissist to and lana says dr jackson. You are amazing. I needed that Do you think that this is going to his decision to cancel this could have ripple effects unintended ripple effects right not only the increase of possible or the thought process that. It's okay to these things i don't have to. The president is a behind these type of things. So i can. I can do is a manager can say these things or is someone else can say these type of you have a also. That's one part of the question. Do you think it could have unintended ramifications in ripple effects as far as lgbt communities. Women are all that kind of thing. Yeah i mean. I so the first thing. I'll say the other part of the research that i was doing before i left. Academia was. I was looking at the best. Most critically conscious woke. C'est culturally sustaining teachers. Right and schools but that research you know ended up being Not just us from study of. What made them stay and dedicate themselves to education past the kind of five. To eight year attrition mark but it ended up being study of because as it turned out. The greatest influential factor. The most salient thing they would say about whether they were gonna keep teaching whether they're going to stay at school or leave. The profession was their relationship with the highest ranking leader in that building which was the principal right so they and what i what i learned from that study is okay. We'll leaders tone setters in chief. They'll people say things like poop. Roosevelt rolls downhill. But you don't else rolls down here hell advocacy activism justice and critical consciousness. So if you have a leader who prioritized literally the ceo of a company the president of a company on the the chairman of work. If you have the leader at the very top this is valuable right like diversity. Equity inclusion belonging accessibility on anti training visits valuable that actually has a ripple effect within the organization in a positive manner and similarly. When you have sort of i hate to send. But sometimes he seems like a racist in chief when you have a tone seven zero mah that sounds again. Because that's when you have a tone center who's saying oh no like i'm going to use all the words every time. A woman of color even indicates that she doesn't like me. I'm gonna call her a pig or a monster or a not so smart person or whatever derogatory terms he uses right so he he's. That's the tone for how we can continue to find things acceptable or not so. I just want to start there. But i'm in so i wanna say shootings do things because we're on the cusp of election right. So every time. I read an article. I'm like yeah. I'm excited about voting national. You vote then you just need to get out and vote but things have happened right. I think his his executive order in many ways is largely performative and political. Because it wasn't a kind of a last ditch attempt to let his base. I know exactly how he feels. This was his last commitment to them that he was going to dismantle anti-racism training he was gonna put a pause on all diversity equity inclusion training And that was a signal to them that they should really come out and support this man. Because you know that's dangerous it's unpatriotic right like a lot of americans who vote for him. I believe really sort of buy into the idea. That training that is is is deleterious somehow to the nation. So that's one thing But i also think that maybe he's aware that he's not going to be an office. And so part of what i read at the end of my articles is i hope posed november twenty twenty. I'm able to witness the ban on the ban on anti racism training breath. Because i honestly believe that if there is a change in regime if there is a different political party if it's if it's joe biden calmly as i think one of the first things they do hopefully as to rescind the order as a matter of fact You know and. I don't know if this is appropriate to mention here. But there is incredible resistance from from variety of organizations. I was reading I think it's the federal news network and apparently a group of eleven Industy industry associations got together and wrote a letter to the o. M. b. into the secretary of labor places like the alliance for digital innovation the american association of advertising agencies the software lines the cybersecurity coalition So eleven industry organizations got together and said you know what this doesn't work for us and they're going to continue writing those letter. I mentioned early. The the american institute of physics exemplary exemplary leadership was they got together some of the most brilliant scientists in the world right fifty scientific organizations whose membership span not only the united states but the whole world and they got together and fifty signatories and sent a letter to owen be saying you need to resend this. It goes it. It's anti therapy to a moral and democratic of imperative. It's not rooted in science at all. This is hindering our work which we're fervently trying to diversify physics in the physical sciences and science and stem and so you are in our way you must remember even if he does re-elected industry like literally businesses who know the business case for diversity which is what you mentioned earlier. An an academic institutions right and other scientific organizations who are like excuse us scientists are jail. What's your do as having have an executive order that is anti science. We are scientists. You need to trust us. So i i think i whether he's re elected or not i think they're going to be after effects. But i'm excited about the positive aftereffects. Yeah i There was an article. It's in usa today. Says trump executive order on diversity. Training royals Corporate america and that was published on september. Twenty fifth twenty twenty So and then that's a number. I read a couple of other articles though all saying the same thing naming a bunch of companies as you just mentioned That are That are kind of pushing back and his type of type of thing Can you can you speak to the. I would say unintended but yet intended consequences of how they would affect. Lgbt communities women I mean so. I focus a lot on anti training because i really think that trump things anti-racist means anti white an seventy article anti racism training is not everybody gets white people. It's everybody against races. Every all hands on deck against racism not white people right so when we talk about things like diversity equity inclusion and belonging that to me is the umbrella that helps us understand the experiences of minority groups within any particular organization. So there's gonna be a minority groups are going to be affected by this right women for certain right. i'm coming. I worked for at the department of defense for about a year And you know when you think when they talk about the diversity primarily talking about women because it's such a male dominated and male heavy organization and sometimes they're talking about lgbtq plus votes because we just got past. Don't ask don't tell. Sometimes they're talking about faith and faith ism because they need sikh soldiers and you know. They need muslim soldiers and they need a variety of people who speak a variety of language. You can help us with our mission. So the i'm surprised and i don't know maybe i'm just late to the party but i suspect that even the military will push back and say we literally cannot pursue national and global security and peace based on this order wreck because the mill so federal agencies have equal employment opportunity but the equivalent out is the military is equal opportunity so they have sort of their parallel system to make sure that you know that people are included. That there's a grievance process. So i say look out for the military letter because what the military knows the science and the military knows we cannot keep this country say and we cannot protect and promote democracy. If we don't have masters of other languages masters of other cultures immigrants if we don't have even undocumented people conserve right so i'm looking for the military's response because that's one of the most diverse organizations in the world and and they're not going to have this if its deleterious to their mission they will not have it. Yeah so and again you know. The military is struggling with Swastikas or in the confederate flags and different military bases. And they you know some Generals earn agreement with chain frozen. Okay okay So so yeah so. They're struggling with all that type of thing and to pump out this. This this order is just seems to me to be one of the. Silliest ideas That that really could come and i'm gonna admit something. I did not know that we had military bases named after confederate soldiers. I did not know that until six months ago or so that to me is just insane in and to have that To to send a black soldier such as myself for my son who's in the air force to some base. That was named it to someone who thought he should be unchained and who tried to actively tear down. The united states is bananas to me. So i think that one of the ways that we heal that and get by that is the have is different types of training that you mentioned and just to kind of piggyback. More of what. You're saying when i was in a plus a biased instructor at the pd. So all those people who are Reaching out to you if they if they're so if you're if you're too busy if you could give them give them my scraps giving a scratchy. Okay well if things get too busy for you you've got a couple of scraps about the second rate guy up a connecticut. Who used to do it anyway. As soon as i saw. Bye to monitor what i would. I thought that when i taught that I always talk about the exactly what you what you mentioned right. This is not just the this just not another cultural diversity class or of you know white people black people being taught by a black copy or you know you know 'cause i always hear there is rolling in their head when when you know so i always talked about. Listen this is how you treat other people period. This is how As you mentioned you know a muslim person with treat an an An asian person. Or if you come across a someone who The mentally handicapped artistic right. So i want you to understand your approach to these particular people. How do you feel about lgbt Communities how do you feel about. And so i don't want your actions because you have these internal in biases already about how you view. Other people You shouldn't you cannot react upon that you can pull people over and refused to give pretty ladies tickets but give them to those who are less attractive or give them to males or or be more preferential to taller people right so this this idea of implicit bias. Training goes isn't just about race. It's about all these different things. Be that we think about people when we first meet them for the first time and so that becomes very very important that we don't act upon these things a particularly in law enforcement and particularly in the medical field particularly in a schoolteachers etcetera etcetera etcetera. So i wanna know. I wanna know specifically from you dr jackson what were you doing. That was so dangerous so unpatriotic. What were you doing what you tell people that. What were you doing. That was so crazy that the president united states had to address it. What were you. What were you doing in these classes. You know what. So funny. I when i was in graduate school actually written some piece have a photographic numbers that i remember everything i've ever read anyways. So that's what makes me a super nerd. But i written some some paper and she just looked at me and she said to hurry. She said you've been reading and that makes you dangerous. You've been reading and that makes you dangerous because nothing. We know that knowledge is power right. So what i'm doing that. So dangerous is this. So first. Of all i m helping people do their best work in peace. That's what's so dangerous right. Because i know you know that way implicit bias you know. And discrimination and prejudice manifest and get substantiated is it disrupts the peace people on jobs. And i say this about policemen law enforcement officers because i don't hate elite threat. I also don't hate cops. People are doing the best they can with what they know at any given moment and so my job as a professor and also as a teacher you know and now as a consultant and has a diversity officer is to just educate people about how they can do their best work in peace because 'isms disrupt our ps now. I one of the things that i started early on doing you know in my career was i would work with a lotta corporate entities work with like fortune five hundred company s still get calls from them by the way on but they would just they. Can you come and do the business case for diversity can you. Can you convince us why we should listen to you and why we should do what you're saying. Why should we give up our slice of the pie. That's what they want to also more realistically like. If you can convince us that this will help our profit margin and our bottom line. We'll do it. What what you're going to need to be brought over and again when it comes to social justice and racial equity and all forms of sort of an antidepressant the data are on our side so it does so what what diversity and anti-racist does it optimizes your organization right all those beliefs men who want to do the best job possible. They want to optimize their performance. They don't wanna be discriminatory they want to get promoted to captain art. Chief right they have. They have goals themselves raises them gets in the way sexism gets them away. All the 'isms it gets them away. And if you're a company you know. First of all attrition is expensive so people are leaving your organization because it's racist sexist transphobic ablest and all the things you keep having to invest rehire and recruit and get recruiters and get you know certain independence firms and search organizations. And you've got a rich. You gotta keep retraining people or no. It's the same education. The retention of teachers is a problem because when you keep having higher new and that it takes them years to learn you know their job expensive. So first of all attrition is expensive. The other thing is i just read a study the other day and it it was about employment and what i love about young people in generations. Ears millennial is bet they have a low tolerance for intolerance and what that article said was eighty. Three percent of young people eighty three percent of millennials. Generations ears will not take a job with an organization that is not expressly committed to racial equity and social justice. So you can't even get them in the door now. These young people are saddled with crippling student. Loan debt fifty percent of people. I think now are back home with their parents in large part due to the pandemic but before that due to crippling student loan and they still come work for you if you don't value diversity that to me is stunning. But that's also an opportunity. We have a younger generation of people who will not tolerate intolerance and and it's because they know the value of having a diverse team and diversify an expanding their view having access to a bowl human record and really understanding how the world works and various people live their lives. So i mean. I what what makes me so dangerous is that i have the data and the data are on our side and i also in pursuit of justice truth in peace and you know you're gonna keep skirting the issue not having diversity training and not dealing with your eeo in your ego. Is your sexual harassment assault issues. You're just gonna keep spinning your wheels. You're going to be low. Your efficiency and profit margins are going to be lower and you're not going to be the best organization you can be if your if your goal is to sell widgets even if your widget is high quality public education or are you actually sell widgets computers. You need diversity and anti-racism trait and you need diversity equity and inclusion. So i mean i can go on to a whole list of other things you know that that companies would benefit from make misrepresentation all the time the business case for diversity. Here's how it impacts your bottom line. Here's how you're not tapping into emerging markets. Here's how to market to people of color. Here's how to be racially sensitive. I one of the things. I did this summer. Was that help. Companies come up with their not only their solidarity statements wreck. We recognize brianna. Taylor we recognize the state of racism but also come up with their action plans and their subsequent strategic plans. Hawk is what are you going to do about it. Thank you for posting on instagram. That you feel our pain so now organizationally. How will you commit j. p. morgan. The other day committed thirty billion dollars to diversify financial industry. And if they can do it so can everybody else and they know what to do with money. They analyzed that every day. So i hope that answers the question. I've heard other people many other academics Smart as or almost sparta's you almost almost Say that they don't believe in institutional racism. There's no such thing that we eliminated this in the sixties and seventies and by color free. Now they just need to try harder. There's no such things institutional racism What what's your response to that. You know what. I'll i watched the vice presidential debate and vice president. Mike actually did say that he said something akin to that. which was. i don't inherently believe that there's implicit bias and that this is an inherently racist design. Right he said that to Calmly harris hey biracial woman of the law. And i believe kim right. Everybody has their own story of how they are experiencing this country. I think what what i get people realize by signing up for my trainings and sort of having me as their consultant has that you can be. You can be chew people in the same organization or the same federal agency or the same branch of the armed forces or the same nation and you can have vastly different experiences came again. It's not pi. Your story isn't necessarily ally and falls because mine is true if you are white person in this country and you can interact with the police however you like if you wanna carrion ak47 to a state capital whilst plotting to kidnap and murder. The governor if you kyle rittenhouse wanna take your air fifteen and go shoot people in the street because you think you're doing democracy service dylann roof if you wanna walk into a church and shoot up nine people and still go fast food on the way. Do prison like you know. Like i understand that you get arrested as opposed to killed on the spot. We all understand that right. What if i'm an unarmed black man like ahmad arbery. If i'm an unarmed black man. Like walter scott. Ray shaw brooks jacob. Blake any of black people who have been killed then. You need to understand that. The way we interact with law enforcement is inherently different. It is vastly different. So i'm not out here trying to tell people that they're liars. Oh i believe whatever story you're telling yourself you know part of privilege is if it's not a problem for me personally then. It's not a problem period. So part of privilege is being able to deny the everyday lived experiences of people who aren't like you heart of being a man is being able to say. I don't see what the problem is here within. Not having somebody put their hands on your waist every time they pass by you at work right or not being paid seventy four cents on the dollar when everybody's getting paid so so so again. Part of privilege is saying because this is not a problem for me personally. It's not a problem writ. Large and so i believe these people in their stories. I believe them But i'm here to let you know that black people women all manner of minority groups. Lgbtq plus people we are having vastly different experiences in this country and that's why you've seen all these protests in the street. We're not protesting nothing right. So i've heard this from from other black individuals black conservatives as well in i know i what missile we get the question. What what would be your response to those particular people who say and it's us our culture And i'm not. I'm not even saying i totally disagree with that. I mean some things we do need to change before we look at other people as mohammed said before other people. We need to look at ourselves. Which what your. What's your response to them who say listen it's not the sixties and even even i told my son that we my son and i were having a conversation and he says you know this is wchs. What's going on. Today is just like the sixties. Just as bad. I was like whoa listen. Listen that's like a let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's let's think about this It's not as bad as the sixties any stretch of the imagination. You have the right to do whatever you wanna do. We want to go to to a greater proportion almo- almost In complete freedom to do to do whatever i mean. I've been all most many states in the country. Many states in this country not had these these crazy negative experiences and i often. What youtube videos were people get. Spit on getting called the n. Word like where's this happening. Now i'm walking around going going to a home depot. Nobody ever called me call me a nigger spat on me so why. Why is this happening. So so so what what's going on. What would you say to to more conservative black persons who are saying listening. We can't keep crying. Racism we had to do x y and z. Okay well this is one of my favorite arguments which made my ugly face. I had to look away. 'cause 'cause okay so on a more serious note As a black person in this country. I don't 'cause my own oppression. If i have the power to end racism and to end my own oppression. I would have done that a long time ago. So the fact that. I can't and the fact that we still have to be out here in a fifty wide protests against racism. That lets you know that my sheer will is not enough okay. This is the argument. I make about. The love is racist. If people wanna aren't well you know we just treat each other. No no if we were just nice to each other. You're enough interracial relationships that are consensual now to what you would think that that would have solved racism. We had a half black president. You know so it must be. It must be deeper than that. So one of the things that are like to say in response to that is as a person of color and as a woman and as a minority group even just somebody who grew up experiencing poverty. There's nothing wrong with me. I'm not broken. And i don't need fixing i'm not lazy. I'm not promiscuous. I don't 'cause my own sexual harassment and my own rate if i'm black and still nice to the police officers. I don't 'cause my own unprovoked. Death in police custody so that lets you know that my sheer will to want to end. Those things are not enough. So i mean we were having this conversation. You know again. I i work with visits in the physical sciences community. So the question that also often get asked this asked is why do more black people not join us like what's wrong with them right. That's the question that's not the right question. My question about the question is where are you as a community. Possibly being exclusive rec. It's one thing to invite people to your table but you have to give them something to eat. So what are you doing as a community. That sort of keeps them out. Same thing in america right like there are hard working black people. They're hard working women. We are participating in the american dream as best we can. We are trying to pull ourselves up by boots that we were never given so many of us don't have books to begin with. That's martin luther. King it's a cruel jest to say. Pick yourself up by your boot to rootless man right so to your black conservative friends with bought wholeheartedly into the notion of meritocracy which has everything is fair. Justice is blind every body is going to get their fair share. If they do their fair amount hard work so then i say well then i'm waiting on those of us who have quote unquote made it to make it so for everybody else. We've got black congressman. We attempt at the congressman south carolina. Where i mean why does a key alone have the power to make everything accessible for us right. Oh so then. It must not be in our individual hands. It must be embedded in policies and laws. It must be embedded in inequitable education. It must be embedded in the impact. Inequity wave staff. It must be embedded in stereotyping and the fact that we're so shoot you know. We're so quick to shoot a black person pink dangerous and it must be vetted of the science and the science that tells us that black people and people of color and women are inferior and they don't really deserve what everybody else gets so no remedy. I don't know what remedy they're suggesting. Maybe they just kinda suck it up and keep going to. They're saying connected. I think that they're saying that that it doesn't exist right. It's it's it's Some of the shootings that were looting to are are certainly controversial People acting badly things like that That there's no such thing as a they would say they would point to a person like yourself person like myself and say that we've made it. A levada is has a master's degree and she's i should know this therapist inside of on my show You know she's a counselor So So so here. We are making doing something. So they're saying stop winding. Stop complaining in in this done the other and so i'm just trying to give the other side of the argument there to as to what you know why. Why why we're still dealing with this type of thing So so that's that's kind of the argument that that i've heard so many many times. Let can just respond really quickly. I promise i'll be. I mean i'm never grieved but at least i'm good. Okay so the first thing. I wanna say is you know one of my professors actually. I don't know if i ever got a chance to actual class that. I took a lot adl at america. African american studies class and henry. Louis gates doctor henry junior. This man was arrested on his porch right. During the obama administration this man was arrested on his own port. So what i think is interesting about the argument for people who think we've made it like lebron james these really wealthy black male athletes. You can make it on you want you can be as wealthy you can be as area unite and brilliant as you want but you will never be able to buy down your blackness you will never not scare something your blackness alone right so you can be wealthy again. You can be famous. You can have all the celebrity but if you encounter somebody who doesn't know you what they see in that moment is your blackness so best of luck with that okay and then the second thing is You know i. I love how you said. Listen you know you're a success documents and you're sitting here with you two degrees from harvard. You've got a phd. You made it okay. So what. I actually tell. The story is part of the work. That i do. And i wrote a book chapter about it. Right like the about how schools literally structure inequality how. It's actually not the great equalizer. What i say in that talk. Is you know yes. I have achieved great things. I have done some really cool stuff. I did go to arbor twice. I do have a phd And so by all means if you look at my cbi it's like oh girl you made it like dr jackson dr jackson. You made it. But what i'm saying you know what what. Jeff duncan drowning another professor out. If you could san jose state university dr jeff dunkin andrade. He would say you. Roses do pop up from the concrete. They absolutely do But don't tell me. Concrete doesn't exist. I've not here because of the way education and his country works. I'm here in spine of it right. I'm here in spite of so. I use that story which i will not allow to be co opted by anyone. Because that's my story. Do you don't know what. I had to overcome unnecessarily to get here because it's shouldn't have been this hard. It should not have been this hard to do this. I should not have had to work for jobs in college and still graduate. Magna kumar like. That's ridiculous that's ridiculous. But basically what i like to say as well. I'm here for concrete removal. So because other people shouldn't have to go through this right. So yeah. I'm a rose that popped up the concrete. Thank you very much. Dr jeff jeffrey. Dunkin andrade in his work Don't tell don't tell us that. The concrete doesn't exist right. Because now if i can't see the concrete i can't remove it for other people so bless your friend's bless their hearts good I wrote lessons aaron. How are you doing time. We're past the hour. Mark our and twelve good. I'm so tired on delirious. So it's i don't know i don't even know what month it is. It's fine alvin. i don't. I don't know what season is emery. We got rid of segregation but still needs to change the value. Celebrate it in this society which still regards black cuba's outsiders in the country we built. We have two extra pay The value of white supremacy and colorblind racism. I mean put that on screen here So to the to the question. I mean emery emery wrote this It's not a question but he wrote. We got rid of segregation do need to change values. celebrated in our society. I don't know if you can elaborate on that in which still regards black people as outside of the country are we still are. Are we still in. This would go back to the other conservative. Always still seen. And i'm not talking about i'm talking And i i hate to try to. you know. Try to say this politely. But inner city More negative environment african americans who live in those particular environments. But are you seen as an outsider are am i seen is is the people who are watching this scene who are probably mostly positive. are are they outsiders would you would you. Would you back outside. What outside i would i would assume. Well he wrote this i. I'm not sure outside of the mainstream on of society Listen i i live in connecticut. It's the stuff goes on when this when this stuff goes on Just a little story. My daughter and i my daughter's getting her own apartment finally so So so we go into these different stories and stuff and sometimes i just walk around now. You know. I gotta just full beard and baseball cap. I around and in these. I don't know if it's because these protests. But i get in so many lows and highs in how you doing holding the door for me. So again is this. Is it just my experience. Is this other people's experiences. And i know that you you talked about this. Do you know we have to do different experiences. And living in saint place. Same country and everything so i questioned to the to the magnitude or to the to the question. Are we living. Are we outsiders in the mainstream. I mean what's your thoughts about that. Yeah so if. I can back them. Because i think in common communist richard the not so let me just say this to so on. The first part says we got rid of segregation. Well yes and no but let me let me just say let me give you a surprise data on segregation so we all know if we're education scholars from the work of gary warfield. Dr gary feel. He's studied school. Segregation integration desegregation for years and when he found whereas actually the most the most racially segregated group in the united states is white students. Write the most racially. Segregated group in schools is white students followed closely behind by asian students. And the reason. That's so stunning. And the reason not sell problematic and like you know insipid. Fbi because they when you when you are around. Psychologically people who are similar to you you become even more radical steeped in that belief so if you're only ever around white people you can you become steeped in whiteness so now when you go out into the world as a decision maker. You're going to work on wall street. You're going to be a teacher. You're gonna go whatever you are now. You're racially underdeveloped because your social circle doesn't have any people of color in it probably and when you encounter people in your workplace that you you've never seen before you don't know what to do and then injured someone like than no counselor so the first thing i want to say we. Actually it's debatable. Right like maybe we got rid of of deteriora- segregation right where you can't pavitt legally what in practice. We actually are still racially segregated and the people who suffer from that from them from racial isolation the most is white people. Because you now you don't know how to interact with people of color now you've got internalized superiority and you don't know what to do. You don't know what to do in a world full of people who don't look like you right because why people can forget that their global minorities people of color are actually the global majority and we really need to remember that. The second part of emory's comment was about being an outsider. I mean i think that part of the reason that. I think that part of the reason that we're outsiders. Also minority status is not really based on number. It's based on power so if you go to any african country. Those countries have very white governments. White folks european folks controlled the diamond industry. The water in the infrastructure the coal industry got. So you know. Meet number doesn't equate to power power equate to power. So i think part of the reason that we are my north is not so much about number. It's not power and let me just give you this last bit. We know from the department of labor. The department education on the pew research center that our country on a course of sort of racial equalization. We're the number of people of color. Will what will soon either in twenty thirty five or twenty worry too depending on which projects and you like the number of people of color will equal the number of white people. We've already surpassed that in public schools. The majority of enrolled children in public schools are actually students of color. People white people especially are terrified of this sort of equalization. I'm not because if you maintain control over power. It doesn't matter how many people have called it doesn't matter how many women you have in your organization. It doesn't matter. How many lgbt the question is who has the power and control so. I'm not concerned about being an outside. I think eventually we'll get to the point where we're more equitable on. And where we talk about power more and where we will see a more representative nation. I am excited about that. I'm excited about kamala harris. I really am like this one woman of color. But i'm excited about a half black half jamaican half indian woman on a vice presidential ticket with a reasonable chance chance of winning. That's exciting to me. But it's what it's one woman. And so i'm excited about a representative government and representatives power I think we're a little aways away from that. But i think that'll kind of mitigate whether we feel like insiders or outsiders you'll always be on the periphery answering if you don't have any power. That's how i look at it. Very good We're kind of going long hair. But i but i appreciate the conversation and I know what you're tired. And i want to let you go. Just got a couple more questions. We're going to end it off. I i really want people to go over to check out which you wrote a medium and I was scrolling through trying to find some parts here. But the the the Namely article this again is i'm an anti-racist anti-racism trainer and trump cancelled me. But here's why i'm dangerous but hopeful a you also wrote. I'm a button ablation diversity consultant. And i fell for the f. and feld f. apart my mental meltdown. During summer george floyd and on maslow's hierarchy of needs black people don't even have basic safety. How how you can prevent another beyond a taylor a lot of different articles that you wrote that which drew me to you so please go with a medium. Checkout her articles. We'd be looking for your website. There you always finish a here there. You wrote this comments okay. Let me copy this in We'll put it in the chat here So you always. You ended out with the articles. Were talking about voting solicits. Get into politics just a little bit here. Where what's your thoughts about About first of all the first debate or comic show whatever whatever was going on that night and of course as you mentioned you're excited about common. What what's what's your thoughts about that type of thing again. Because i always liked to start an answer questions. You didn't ask i i. I am excited than it's an election year captain hunter. But i'm disappointed that we started at least on the democratic side. This year ways started with the most diverse group of candidates. I think in history we had working ncaas throw. We had elizabeth warren. We have only heard so many people on the democratic side We had so many women we had so many people of color we own it was. It was so exciting so the fact that we ended up with joe biden on. He's a lovely man. He's going to be exponentially end infinitely better than any planning dumpster. Fire on the other side. So i'm not. I don't begrudge in lament. And i don't sort of resentfully support him i i just i want to bring up my disappointment at the fact that twenty twenty. We still couldn't get to some other candidate for president. That was not a man and now we've gone back to yet another white man so i think that actually explain some of the pressure that everyone felt to diversify ticket at least with a woman and now we have a woman of color. Who's hyper confident. So i'm excited. I think you probably know how i'm going to cast my vote but Yeah it's not like do you want to be shot or take poison. It's like do you want to die or do you want to call with newborn puppies like i'm gonna cut him with newborn poppies thank you so it's not. It's not even apples and oranges. That's apples and monkeys like it's not. It's that's not even saying so. So i would never have trouble choosing between trump and been harassed but your question again was about the election and you. You asked me something very specific. I'm sorry i forgot to gordana. Just just your thoughts about kamala harris of what's going on I think you kind of answered already. I mean you're you're excited about about the ticket Oh i want to know your thoughts about to debate the first debate. The second debate what was it. There was supposed to be a big debate yesterday. Right in but they cancel because ruling townhouse. So let me just state briefly. I really can't answer this briefly. So for the presidential debate. I always tell that within your organization. Whatever an organisation oldest University branch of the military federal agency. It should be harder to be a bully than it is to be the person who got bully. It should be harder to be a racist than the person who is the victim of racism and should be harder to be a sexually harassing sexually assaulting sexist than it is to be a victim of those things and i think what we saw on the debate stages. This man is a verbal bully. He literally launches personal attacks and so if he were literally part of any of the organizations that i work with. I would say okay. Well we're going to have to address your culture and we're going to have to address. What makes this possible. I did I gathered together all the african american employees of federal agency a couple of months ago because someone at their white leader said dr jets. Somebody needs to talk to them like they're angry. They're insist we don't know what to do. People are uncomfortable own. My gosh right. So i got together. The african american employees all of them like it was a huge zoom. Call for three hours and one of the most compelling things that came out of that session was somebody said in this company. How are you able to treat a black people like trash to treat. The women like trash and still be here. How are you still able to command your salary and continue to excel and be promoted if you can't even get your interpersonal Relations right how are you able to be here. How is no one holding you accountable in your performance evaluation and that stuck with me and i think donald trump if he does get elected i think that all of that that behavior that we see from him in a debate and really just sort of on a daily basis. I think i think that's going to get positively. Reinforce so i am. I'm not worried right because we've already survived for years back. But i think about that again. A that are in cheap so what he teaches. The united states is you can get up here and interrupt incessantly. You can say horribly racist things. You can say xenophobic things. You can say transphobic homophobic things and you get reelected right. And there's no consequence. I think about that. I don't worry about that. But i think a lot about that. And then with regards to the vice presidential debate. I actually use a still of kamla harris and mike pence being asked about the at posed a very simple question did brianna taylor received justice. I mean it was very plainly worded. It was not a leading question. Did bring on a taylor. And her family received justice. Carmela harris cannot and people think she's problematic too so i don't uncritically celebrate her legal record. We can talk about that later. Who's people are like. Wait a minute. She's part of the problem like okay. Well so but even still she was able to muster up a response that said basically. I instituted implicit bias. Training in california right. Enter captain hunter injure to josh about. That's what we do. I do believe that there is disparity that there's inequity and there's disproportional injustice for black people in this country. And i'm so sorry don shouldn't happen and we're gonna work on that enter vice president mike pence vastly different answer. Vastly different experience. Well carmela fly on head. i don't enjoy. Is that one of the questions that an inherently believe that. Oh no i can do. It's so weird. I don't know if you can see that but talk to the american public. I don't believe that even implicit bias exists. And i believe that we what we ought to do long. So he added retorts. Hey kinda comes back and robust with his argument for how we not only need your sort of defunding police and community based thing but he comes back and says we need poor law and order. We probably need more stop and frisk weight and inches so again they could vastly different answers. But when you ask a black person about what it's like to interact with police in this country. I mean i actually drove to dnv during a pandemic to renew my my registration because even little old me. i know better than to let your registration expire. I know better than to have a tail light out. I know better have an expired license or ten because it's not going to go well for me. It is not gonna vote. Well for me if i don't get taken care of if i get stopped by the police on the way home captain on her. I may not live to tell about it. And that's unacceptable. That is unacceptable so yeah. They gave their vastly different answers. That's that's my take on it. And now i use it a teaching moment just less. Hope is the last question So we talked a little bit about michigan In what happened at the You know the guy showing up there with the guns and then of course. There was a plot to kidnap the governor. You talk about that at all or or or according to other conservative particularly black conservatives one particularly black female conservative whose name i don't like to say Says that white domestic terrorists is not that big a problem now that controversial but we know from the federal government. I believe that either the fbi because the intelligence community is my favorite. Like they're keeping nothing and we don't even know like how how many bombs and things. I love the intelligence community. But what i'll say has no actually if we if we just right now. I believe it's the fbi. There was a story of the day especially on huffington post and it said one intelligence agency whether it's fbi otherwise says the white terrorists white supremacists are actually the greatest terrorist threat to the united states. They actually pose the greatest terrorists that when we think about the seller poverty poverty law center. They were documenting. Sort of the anthony off of white. Supremacist terrorist groups. Starting with our president obama's administration they have continued to track and sort of register hate groups and they have grown exponentially under this administration. And so no. I don't know who again. I work with scientists so the data are on my side right and i read and i'm dangerous because i read that story and i respect the intelligence community. They don't lie unless it's going to save your life right like you know so. Yeah no if they were if they were people of color we would be calling them terrorists and will be putting them under the jail. But we'll see we'll see what happens. We'll see who claims and saturday. We'll see you know who's who's convictions. Overturned we kind of know how that story ends. Yeah very good I'm gonna let you go. I really really appreciate it. Could talk to you all day on that For type person your energies listen. It's probably by probably had the at the of the camera around the room. They're right just to keep you in it. So i know you're open up a website you you're consulting. Can you give us a website that you're gonna do your consulting services. Can people reach out to you and console yes. I'm a bit overwhelmed. And i'm just came into. Listen i'm trying to take off your plate so don't don't ever feel that you can't say no used student loan debt right now. I'm actually will do. I'm not yeah. I wanna say like oh. I'm not taking new partners. But it was really compelling and if it's on a sunday or a saturday or like now this is at seven thirty at night so it doesn't interrupt my commitment to my day job. I'm i'm fiercely committed to that. What here's where you can get me. So i do right lots on medium but i also tag. My i attached my posts and my writing to my lincoln profile so the best way to connect is go linked in for now You know to hurry. Dr not to hardy consulting or you're just put into harry jackson. A website is coming later this month. But i i am hesitant to save the day because my web designer is incredible. And i don't want to rush her but i believe it will be dr to harry. Dot com on people can talk. People can see you know. Sort of what i do. Is i speak I do consulting on a good day. It's a weekend or evening or i make exceptions. I do train the trainers. I'm actually a certified trainer of diversity trainers on and i'm a federally certified. Eeo counselor and i also know know. E o on the military side and i am a sexual harassment assault response prevention sexual assault response coordinator because i know that our branches of the military too often need support in that way so reach out to me on linked in until dr tahari dot com is up and running very good very good. I had somebody on a show one time and they said that they were Sexual were domestic violence domestic violence facilitator. Like i'm like facilitate domestic so. We had a good laugh about that. Actually she was. I think she was in a chat. I think so. I had a good laugh about that. But anyway so i appreciate that. Thank you so much. Listen you're you're coming back. You gotta article coming up that we talked about already. Coming back Listen you're going to be a staple on the show and people are going to know who you are. Please go back to the audience. Listen to the previous episode. That we had we were talking about george floyd and all that kind of stuff and She's become a back and we're going to need her energy We don't even. I don't even need to play my laptop spending so much energy so much energy coming through here. So i thank you. I thank you for coming on. Thank you to who who showed up nevada. Who's also great is back on the show We gotta hook that up Emery knows he's gonna gives phd. What do what did you call your doctor mills yet. Dr meals. Okay very good. We'll have him on And let's see joe been scillies. Text me the whole time In does shawn was here and just to everyone else who showed up. And i want to start calling. Names akia eric Thank you guys so much for coming on. i really really appreciate it To to come into that you offer their comments. Thank you once again to doctor tahari jackson. She's coming back so we're going to say so long because we're not going to say goodbye. So we're going to say so long so Ladies and gentlemen have a good night we'll see you guys I think next. Wednesday or thursday next wednesday or thursday. When have another show dating Messy entanglements is the segment. We're going to call it so And then Next monday i have guessed. But when you look at my calendar who's who's my guess for next monday. Got show coming up next monday. That i can't help you with that dating. I got nothing last chips. Thanks okay what are we got an interview another another doctor nicole cochran and we're gonna talk specifically about implicit bias. we're going to dig into that And just some of her work that she's she's doing some great work out there in california as well. so great great show We're not gonna continue talking about racism actually next week's racism or sorry about that but we gotta talk about it And then i have a another special. Guests are former chief of police. Come in a couple of weeks. Name's norm stamper are wrote a booked onto any officers out there. He would have great book. And so we got a lot of great. Great shows coming up booked all the way up until the end of november. Just want to put you guys on notice right now that at the end of december in december taking a whole month off. Because i'm doing this for a year and a half and i'm tired so So i'm gonna take all december off cut. Enjoy the holidays and we're gonna start up again. I've already got booked january so we're gonna finish tober all of of november and then started again in january. Already got shows booked into that. So i'll see you guys much love and peace. Thank you so much. Dr taxing and goodbye take care.

dr jackson president trump Dr tahari harvard facebook hunter Cash T. l harry jackson dr hard jackson dr tahari jackson George floyd ben mo emory j mill university of maryland college misha john hunter Arbery american institute of physics Jackson youtube
Police are NOT Racist! Facts from the Incredible Heather MacDonald

The Charlie Kirk Show

37:05 min | 9 months ago

Police are NOT Racist! Facts from the Incredible Heather MacDonald

"Thank you for listening to this podcast wine production now available on Apple podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Hey everybody welcome to this episode of Charlie Kirk, show super thrilled to be able to drop two episodes for you today, and this one right here has the world's expert on police. Brutality police are not racist. Systemic racism does not exist in the police force and Heather McDonald author of war on COPS has the facts statistics? The real way to look at this issue. That I think is going to really benefit your own interpretation of what's going on in America. She is straight to the point. She's brilliant and one of the most recognized authors on this subject. You guys are going to really enjoyed this episode. E mail US your questions freedom at Charlie Kirk Dot, com, type, and Charlie. Kirk show your podcast provider hit that. Subscribe Button, give us five stars listen to both episodes. They both relate to each other help us keep climbing in the charts. Buckle up, everybody here we go early. What you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie Kirk on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have charlie. Charlie coach run in the White House folks. I WanNa, thank jollies, an incredible guy, his spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job. Building. One of the most powerful youth organisations ever created turning USA. He will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Hey everybody welcome to this episode of Charlie Kirk Show. We are so honored to have the most informed and articulate individual in the entire country, someone who has done the difficult but necessary research on police brutality on the myth of systemic racism in our police departments and someone that I consider to be a true ally for the cause of individual initiative, freedom and safe communities Heather McDonald Heather. Welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show, thank you so much. Much for joining us well Charlie. It's a great honor to be with you and I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and your listeners. Thank you so much, so you offered to terrific books and I want to get into both of them. The diversity delusion, which talks a lot about a college campuses and hiring around that but I. I want to get into a little bit of the news cycle. You wrote another book called war on cops. There is a narrative that is being spread on cable television right now that there is systemic racism in police departments. Can you please help us unpack this? From your fact? First data driven perspective well absolutely Charlie and what we're seeing is a reigniting of the poisonous narrative from the Obama era. The black lives matter narrative that said is you say that we're living through an epidemic of racially biased police shootings of black men. The data simply don't bear that out Last year there was a grand total of nine. Unarmed blacks shot by the police and the source for the category of unarmed blacks the Washington. Post it's very generous with who had designates as unarmed if you're. Trying to steal an officer's gun and beating him with at your unarmed. Last year, one of those nine, so called unarmed blacks was in a car hit sped off in a police chase in Newark New Jersey there was a loaded semiautomatic handgun in the car that was considered being unarmed. Nevertheless, let's let's just take the nine as as a on its face value that nine. Unarmed blacks shot by the police entire year. Is Point one percent? Of all blacks who were killed? In homicides by other blacks about seventy, five, hundred to eight thousand laxer killed a year. That's more than all whites and Hispanics combined. and the rate at which. Police officers shoot mostly armed blacks because the vast majority of all police shootings of civilians. There's about thousand. Fatal police shootings a year out of about three, hundred, eighty, five million. Contacts. Did officers have with civilians? the number of blacks who were shot fatally by the police is much much lower. than their rates of violent crime would predict because what determines. Officer use of force whether it's lethal force or something lower than that. Is The rate at which officers encounter violet, armed, and resisting suspects, and given the exponentially higher rates of black crime, and I use exponentially quite literally. It's about ten times higher. Black black males commit gun violence about ten times, the rate of whites and Hispanics combined It is predictable that. They're going to be encountering more blacks who are in crime-filled situations, more black suspects. and the. Percentage of blacks were killed each year about twenty five percent of all people were killed by police. As I say, that's much much lower than the black crime rate would predict. America's ready to get back to work, but to win in the new economy. You need every advantage to succeed. SMART companies run net suite by Oracle the world's number, one cloud business system with net sweet. You'll visibility and control over your finances, HR, inventory, ecommerce, and more everything. You need all one place. Whether you're doing a million or hundreds of millions in sales net sweet lets you manage every penny with precision. You'll have the ability to compete with anyone work from anywhere and run your whole company right here from your phone. Join over twenty thousand companies who trust naturally to make it happen. I've used you guys got to use it in that sweet is amazing, net sweet surveyed hundreds of business leaders and assemble. Assemble. A playbook of the top strategist using as America reopens for Business Receive Your Free Guide, seven actions that businesses need to take now and schedule your free product to her netflix dot com slash kirk nuts with terrific product and service. You guys got to check it out. Get Your Free Guide and schedule your free product to right now in that sweet dot com slash kirk net sweet dot com slash Kirk. One of my favorite pieces that I've ever seen you write was in national review. I've probably shared at a couple of hundred times other. There is no epidemic of racist police shootings. You wrote this last July and it is just as applicable today as it one. That was it was back. Then you talk about a study where that was done by a believe University of Maryland College Park and Michigan State University where they studied police departments all across the country, and they came to the conclusion that I. Think is actually was a I met. Met In two thousand fifteen. Department of Justice Study I might have them. somewhat mixed up, but essentially there was a study that was done of policy departments across the country, and actually found out that white and Hispanics actually have a higher likelihood of encountering police brutality. Can you talk about this and it was? This is something that is again found its way back into the news narrative, and there are our cities are literally being burnt down around this and so if the data doesn't reflect it, why are people still raging against it well? White spandex eight? Three times as many. White and Hispanic homicide victims. Are Killed By cops than black homicide victims twelve percent. Of all white and Hispanic homicide victims are killed by a cop. Four percent of black homicide victims are killed by a cop. Why is that because? The number of blacks who were killed each year is so high. And they're killed by other blacks. They're not killed by the police. They're not killed by whites. They're killed by black criminals. A police officer is eighteen and a half times more likely. To be killed by a black male. than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a COP. Black of made up forty two percent of all cop killers over the last decade. Even though they're six percent. Of The nation's population. The white supremacy charge is ridiculous. If you look at all interracial violent victimizations excluding homicide so all robberies all gun assaults. All aggravated assault or not gun I'll rapes. If you put them all together black on white and white on black. Blacks eighty five percent. Of all interracial victimizations. Whites commit fifteen percent. So the narrative that we have which is that. Blacks are living under systemic oppression. From white violence is a complete law. It is. It is a powerful narrative. It is one that is perpetuated by the academic elites. The the violence that we're seeing spreading now through cities. Is even worse than what I started documenting after Ferguson in two thousand. This this is spread faster. The violences is is more terrifying. This is a real pandemic. This what we are seeing now is a civilisation destroying pandemic unlike. The absurd over reaction to the corona virus that has destroyed the livelihoods of tens of millions of people in the United States. Why is it so much worse this time because we've had another five years of Tana. He see coats. Claiming that the very mission of of the United States to destroy the black body. We've had the culmination in the New York Times is. Historically ignorant, biased and bigoted sixteen nineteen project, saying again that slavery is the very essence of the United States and and so this is a. That gives the liberal elites. Grounds to pat themselves on their back and think that they are the only. Defense against the growing white bigotry of the rubes the Maga- hat wearing roofs in the rest of the country. That is so well, said Heather and I. I like you. Watch this, and I I got my political upbringing following your commentary during the Ferguson Riots and during the Baltimore riots were the mayor said we have space to let them destroy. This is different. This is on a whole different level I actually think it's connected and that the lockdown was the worst possible. Thing that could have happened before an incident like this. You gave people you took away. Their sports took away their jobs. He took away their socialization. You took away prom commencement. All social functions possible, and then you have ten years a decade of a lie that is pushed forward in public schools, the public school that I attended by the way in the pub in the suburbs of. Of Chicago, we used to have curriculum that was designed, saying that black people cannot walk the streets that getting shot by a police officer, and there is no facts with that, but heather when that happens for a decade, and then there a singular incident of a police officer that did not handle a situation properly like we saw in Minneapolis those that decades long of confirmation bias on. Coupled with a lockdown of people that have so much built up anxiety and rage for a variety of reasons, it's almost a perfect storm and heather. It's like as if every other person in the country. There's no disagreement. The media is saying. Well our nation is divided over the George Floyd killing. No one is divided. In fact, we've never been in more agreement around a particular issue that this cop did not act properly in your book. Rather you say that the police officers isn't a book war on COPS I encourage my audience, the police go by. It is the best factor of in book around this with so many citations. It's incredible you say. The police police agencies across the country are actually more dedicated to the belief that. That quote, black lives matter than any of the activist groups. In fact that would be a police departments mission inner cities. Can you talk about how they're? How police forces are actually the ones that are going out of the way to save black lives, not the other way around I, never been to a police community meeting in the Inner City Charlie whether it's in Harlem or central, Brooklyn or the south side of Chicago, where I have not heard the good law abiding residents in those communities. Beg the. Police for more protection They say things like you arrest the dealers. And they're back on the corner the next day. Why can't you keep them off? The street I've heard people complain I. Smell Pot in the corner of my building. Why can't you get rid of the pot smokers? Lettuce notice this. This is a truth that is ignored by the media. The so-called racist war on drugs has everywhere and always. been instigated by the Good Borsch Wa people of black communities. Who understand the scourge. That is outdoor. drug-dealing that understand the terrifying choreography of a drug set in a way that the elites in our academies in our in our racial advocacy groups have no idea about. The good law abiding people in these communities see hundreds of fatherless kids hanging out on street corners, fighting and they are scared. Because they know that those kids are the roots of anarchy. The police face dilemma when they hear these voices. pitiably begging them for protection, they can respond. They can respond by deploy more officers there by using the lawful tactics of stop, question and Frisk. By enforcing the low level quality of life, laws that the people want to be enforced. They have a sense of order. But if they respond to those request, they are going to generate. The racially disproportionate stop and arrest data that the ACLU will use against them in the next racial profiling lawsuit. But the reason that they're in those communities is to save black lives. They're not the best solution to black on black crime. The best solution is to reconstruct the black family so that these kids are civilized so that they learn to defer gratification and control their impulses rather than being completely unrestrained, uninhibited and and quick to resort to violence when they feel disrespected. So the best solution to this crime in the inner city, which is why the cops are there? Is the family. The until the families reconstructed, the cops are the second best solution, and if they back off again I write about something called the Ferguson effect. COPS, where the cops across the country did. Of that proactive policing and in two thousand fifteen twenty sixteen You saw twenty percent increase in homicide. who were the victims? Another two thousand black males were killed. if that happens again if we get a now minneapolis effect. We're going to see the same thing, but it's GonNa. Be Wider You know the pandemic. The absurd lockdowns were already killing cities. They were all you know if we have to maintain social distancing, which is so over overdone. There is no way to have cities. There's no way to have restaurants. There's no way to have the opera. There's we'd have concerts. There's no way to have theater. There's no way to have travel or tourism, but if this anarchy continues, we are going to see bourgeoisie flight from cities that will make the flight in the sixties. 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Tuned to this podcast to hear from former anime star Shell sonnen bed, online's Dave Mason to talk all things UFC two fifty, including all latest betting lines all open twenty four hours a day online visit the website or use your mobile device and join today, and receive your new welcome bonus that online your online wagering solution, visit our good friends and exclusive partner at podcast, one bet online to take advantage of the best bonuses in the business sign up for a free account and make sure these at Promo, code podcast one for your sign up bonus visit, bad online and don't forget that Promo Code podcast one fear sign up bonus. Online your online sportsbook. And it will only further exacerbate all these problems and had their I, said right off the bat as soon as the riot started, said as a result of this the very people that are protesting which by the way are a lot of the ANTIFA radicals out there, and some of which are part of these community. Some of them are not and the president did designate them as a terrorist organization which is long overdue, but I said based on your. Your research the Ferguson effect. Thousands of black individuals and black children are going to die. Because of this that the police are going to feel unwelcome, you will have city council members like they have in Portland and all across the country that turned the police into the enemy and the opposition. They will retreat from these streets like they did in southwest Chicago where there are five hundred black on black gun deaths every single year five hundred every year. And you've mentioned nine unarmed black individuals, and even that nine is a questionable at best figure in a country of three hundred and thirty million people, and so heather, as as we look at this, we look at the police. Departments are actually on the side of black Americans and a lot of times are actually minority, majority police forces you do, and I anticipate of Ferguson effect or a Minneapolis effect, but can you speak to as far as the data in? In general of how the left is able to possibly justify this narrative in perpetuity, or is this just a pathological emotive argument based around singular instances outside of a macro data trend to try to push forth a much more sinister political agenda well. Yeah, it's very curious to see what the hell is their agenda. I don't know I, mean we? We've seen at at the black lives matter sort of petered out with this whimper of a manifesto about Trans Rights. It was so disorganized. But. There have been calls in Chicago to get rid of police forces. Entirely I sometimes wish the police would say fine. We'll take you at your word. Just walk out, you know if you guys really think that you can maintain order here through your violence interrupters, or whatever try you know I it's an and they're you know there is sort of informal boycotts what we saw with the first effect. Officers will drive by that guy hitching up his waistband up because he's got a gun at two am in the morning on a known drug corner. That's what we saw and even. FBI Director James Comey talked about it. He was very honest about the ferguson effect. He said this is going on. Even as the Obama. Justice Department was was frantically denying it. But it will happen again. What they want is really a question. I think some of them do have simply there is an ecstatic. For Destruction, there is a human lust for violence and blood that has now been unleashed. And civilisation is necessary to tamp that down so for the anarchists among us. There's simply a joy in the destruction Beyond that, it's very hard to understand, and yes, of course there. There's no doubt that they will accept because they are in complete denial. About the reality of black crime. The reality is this I mean? We heard so much about New York City, and it's racist. Stop question and Frisk, practices. and. It's always hard to absorb numbers. Sorry, give some more out there. Charlie, but you know again. One has to get these numbers. In, New York City Black Sir twenty three percent of the population. And they make up about fifty percent of all police stops in so AL, Sharpton and everybody. Else's a Ha-. Blacks are stopped twice the rate of their representation in the population that is per se evidence of bias, and they never go beyond that every charge of racial profiling that any of your listers will encounter through the rest of his life I can guarantee. You is going to be based on that type of simplistic analysis. You get your hands on population, Ratios You get your hands on cop. Activity data you put them next to each other, and if the COP, activity data is larger than the than the population ratio, you conclude. Profiling. Here's what the left will not tell you. The crime data. Glasser twenty three percent of the city's population. They commit about thirty five percent. Excuse me about three quarters about seventy percent of all shootings in New York City at the Spanish shootings, two black shootings and you account for nearly one hundred percent. Of all drive bys in New York City that's true in every big American city. Every city has those disparity splashed whites in New York. City are thirty four percent of the city's population. They commit less than two percent of all shootings in New York City. How do we know that? From the victims of witnesses to the shootings who were themselves overwhelmingly black and Hispanic the left will not acknowledge those realities completely so heather I wanNA. Make sure we touch on your latest book. The diversity delusion everyone should pick up a copy of this as well. I actually think ties into exactly what we're talking about you. You give a pretty full throated indictment of the university system, which obviously I spend a fair amount of time on at turning point USA in the work that we do and you make the. That university in some ways is the gateway to this broken culture, and the the byline of the book is how Rayson Gender Pandering corrupt. The university undermine our culture and I think a lot of the misinformation. The mob style teaching the emotive posture that they put in to young university activists driven students is why we are seeing the riots. We are seeing right now. Why did you write this book and Are you starting to see affirmation of a lot of the arguments that you in in this book coming true especially in the last couple of months of lockdown to burn it all down. Charlie, you read everything, and yes, before this week of anarchy, which is going to tear civilization down. The the overreaction to the corona virus was absolutely a confirmation of what I've seen in the universities, which is the safety ISM ideology If you could persuade students to think that they are at risk of their lives on college, campuses from circa ambient, racism, and sexism, which is a complete fantasy, which is a complete delusion, which is a complete. A Caricature of the fact that there has never been a society more open to to to histories traditionally marginalized groups. Then an American college campus whether it's gays or blacks or females if you can persuade students that they are in need of safe spaces on a university campus among a group of overwhelmingly tolerant, you universally tolerant faculty and administrators, you can persuade them. That they need to. Be Insist on zero risk of anything in the society at large, so the the. To Commerce killing the the prosperity killing shutdown, so they're gonNA take more lives than the coronavirus ever could is a direct result of campus ideology but these current riots are even more so up. People today have been sending me statements from various college. Presidents UNCTUOUS -ly calling for racial justice on their campuses in the in the wake of the George Floyd a horrific horrific arrest, which you rightly say Charlie is A. Very singular event it is not representative. but the UCLA chance of the University of California Los Angeles. Was, the supreme in self-righteous Virtue Signal and he's he's setting up his. He's reinvigorating the racial trauma unit on UCLA. Ucla pays its vice chancellor of equity diversity and inclusion. Over four hundred thousand dollars a year, that is multiples more than assistant. Members make all in the service of ally. UCLA is a place of bigotry, so the idea that America is a place of bigotry. The idea that America is a place of white supremacy, which is not the case, this country made up of good well meaning people who want nothing more than to be post racial. That poisonous idea of ubiquitous white supremacy, which was restated on Friday by President Obama in a tweet, restated by vice former vice president Joe Biden in response to the George Floyd that is a lie that comes right out of the academy, and it's going to further tear apart our society and it is, it is that it is confirmation bias in real time and it ends. It results in this negative feedback loop where young people have been taught. taught this by people with very long credentials, therefore they must be correct arguments from authority coupled with emotion and a mean, and and a lot of these young people have meaningless lives, and they find their meaning in protesting alleged injustices, and they sacrifice, and they put for their entire individual identity into the mob, which is so akin to the French revolution and Peggy Noonan. WHO's terrific who I know wrote a expert for your book Has Done one of the best analysis of the French. Revolution was a column many months ago. Do you want to build the wall. We need to build a wall around your computer. That's a PC matic does PC maddock is a weightless next generation antivirus system designed to stop modern threats like ransomware independent firm Ab test, just named TC matic as the top performer in the cybersecurity industry, giving it the best performance award for two thousand nineteen, only PC matic has American research, development and support PC maddox competition is made in foreign countries. Many were the viruses originate pc medic blocks, and knowing a militias ads for hassle-free web browsing and make sure computers faster more liable even. Even after years of use the Chinese Communist, party starting your computer PC, matic can prevent a PC MAC dot com slash Charlie pc medic blocks annoying and malicious ads for hassle-free web browsing, and makes your computers faster more reliable. Even after years of US peace manage protects windows, computers including XP, Vista Windows Seven eight and ten windows servers. Max macbooks Andrew and phone tablets as a fifty dollars for five devices for one year with a full thirty day money back, guarantee get world classic charity. Build the wall build at high build it wide PC matic dot com slash charlie. So have their enclosing here. You also talk on the Metoo Mania in this book you talk about all the major lies of the left Kinda. Give our listeners. Of A preview of. Previous a wrong turn, but a little bit of an insight into where this is headed heather, if people like you and I that are fact I driven individuals that try to defend Western society as a pretty good place for people of all different racial backgrounds to be able to flourish. If the mob gets their way. Heather. You study history. Where is this headed? Civilization ends I mean what I see in the university and what we saw in the coronavirus, hysteria is the feminization of culture. This is a war untraditional male virtues of courage and honor competition risk-taking. There is a hatred for what white males have accomplished. And they're being sidelined Asians to a great degree as well when it comes to racial preferences, they are the most in college admissions. They are the most handicapped. By by. A disregard for academic, merit. but if if we decide that? The. Traits and values. That brought US extraordinary scientific discovery. Based on accomplishment on Colorblind, on on sex blind accomplishment. that those must be disparaged and history written to be one long narrative of Whoa and would of course Charlie. You know as well as I do that. There are just extraordinary hypocrisies in American history it is it is. Unfathomable how it took us so long to understand how utterly? Unacceptable have filed our treatment of blacks was how much it was a a betrayal of our founding ideals, but we have. I think by now far compensated for that and and going forward. People want to get along the ideology. That's coming out of the universities is dedicated to preventing that. and. The Greater, the feminization of civilization goes on the less there will be of. It so I think what needs to happen. Is People need to take on the myth of bias? That is the idea that any disparity that we see in our culture whether it's the lack of fifty fifty male female engineers at Google and other big tech firms or the lack of of black. Physicists at at Google or mit the idea that that must be explained by bias as opposed to different skills, different interests different appetite for competition and again the large differences now on economic skills. If we can't tell the truth about that, and we only accept bias as the explanation for our world, we are going to destroy meritocracy. Mortgages destroy the possibility of future progress and I'm afraid that's exactly what they want. Just to give our listeners, an understanding of who wrote a review of your book. You're the only person heather who get Peggy Noonan. Jordan Peterson Steven. Pinker Charles Murray. Shelby. Steele and Thomas Soul to write a positive review of a book I can't think of anyone else. who the other pull that off. Its Diversity Delusion also Warren cops. They're enclosing anything. You want our audience to be aware of any specific Things that you're doing or that? You know that you want our audience to push towards that. We can be supportive you and thank you for being so generous. Start time I should say they wrote endorsements of your book. I should say. Charlie. No, you've been so generous I just. I would say the viewers go out and read great literature. You know you talk about the meaninglessness in people's lives. That's because the universities are failing to tell students they should be down on their knees ingratitude before the great works of subliminally of inside of wit of imaging nation that been bequeathed us, and your colleges are very unlikely to give them to you fight. Seek them out on your own, because if you die without having been exposed to the Greek tragedian 's to Milton Shakespeare to trollop. To Mark Twain to Mozart Haydn. You will have died without having experienced the full range of human emotion and insight, so spend your time immersing yourself in beauty because you're going to need it. As the world becomes evermore squalid. Amen to that and I. Tell You from someone who has visited hundreds of campuses represents over two thousand limit turning point USA. They don't even teach you. Socrates Plato and Aristotle to Saito's old white guys that used to run. Greeson had bad ideas. It's it's it's a tragedy, so had their God. Bless you. Thank you so much for joining the show. It is war on cops, diversity delusion and your voice is so critical right now and the studies you have done if followed could actually make our cities safer and our civilization intact, so thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much, Charlie. It's been a real pleasure. What a great conversation! That was heather McDonald. If you guys want to get involved with turning point USA, go to Teepee, USA dot com fight on college campuses fight on high school. Campuses start groups all across the country teepee. USA, DOT COM. That's Teepee USA DOT com. And if you guys want to keep on supporting our show, go to freedom at Charlie, Kirk Dot Com. I should say email us freedom at Charlie Kirk Dot com, you can go to Charlie Kirk Dot Com for recent articles, and we are going to be having some really exciting new features on Charlie Kirk Dot. com So make sure you are tracking that with regularity and finally type and Charlie Kirkstall your podcast provider hit subscribe and leave us those five-star reviews, and we are going to be giving away ten copies of the Maga- doctrine to random winners. Email me freedom at Charlie Kirk Dot Com. New York Times bestseller number one on Amazon couple days freedom at Charlie, Kirk Dot Com all sign them. Just email me your favorite part of this interview. The Heather McDonald interview freedom at Charlie Kirk Dot, com and make sure to check out our other episode today and go back in the archives. We have had cutting edge commentary on everything happening in America. We've more coming later this week. Shoot US an email freedom at trolley car dot com. Thanks so much for listening God bless.

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199: How Politics Became Our Identity with Lilliana Mason

The Psychology Podcast

1:03:24 hr | 9 months ago

199: How Politics Became Our Identity with Lilliana Mason

"Welcome to the psychology podcast where we give you insight into the mind, brain behavior in creativity. I'm Dr Scott Barry Kaufman, and in each episode I have a conversation with guest. He will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding of yourself, others and the world live and. Hopefully will also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for listening and enjoy the PODCAST. Today. It's great to have Louisiana on the podcast Mason is associate professor of government and Politics That University of Maryland College Park and author of Uncivil agreement how politics became identity with the University of Chicago Press. She received a PhD in political psychology from Stony Brook, university and her B A in politics from Princeton University her research Parson, identity, partisan bias, social sorting, and American social polarization has been published in journals such as American Political, Science Review American Journal of Political. Science public opinion quarterly and political behavior and featured in media outlets, including the New York. Times The Washington Post, CNN, and National Public Radio Dr Mazen what a honored is to chat with you today all that much for having me. When you were rang this book. Did you ever imagine just how relevant it would be to June thirteenth? Two Thousand Twenty. I, so I actually started writing spoken two thousand nine. As it were by dissertation and so. I kind of came up with the idea of this when we were certain still in Malek Change, early Obama. Time and I. We still had plenty of you know clearly partisan animosity, but I. I was trying to explain that, but I didn't. I certainly didn't know how. How bad yet issue. Yeah you're you talk in talking. Book thought it was interesting, talked about hope leaders and fear leaders. I hadn't seen that distinction in literature. That's a real distinction that people have noted throughout the course of human leadership. Not really this is more thinking about the emotion work on a sort of emotions and and behavior, and then thinking about sort of how how leaders can manipulate the emotions of electorate in order to get outcome if they want, and and you know a bomb as a great example of someone who's leading with open enthusiasm. Whereas trump is a better example of someone who leads with Mars or anger anxiety that those types of emotions. You know it's interesting book really. Talks about these different perspectives and just trying to understand where different people are coming from and you maiden statement like little things are so bad. You know I imagine there are trump supporters listening to this podcast that don't see it as bad they see. The other side is bad and I'm just wondering. How can we get out of this quagmire? Aware we talk to each other. Yeah. I used to make a joke when I. Give talks about the book people would say. How do we address? And I would. I would go. If aliens were to. The, maybe we would all come together as human beings and. We would have the superordinate leases Americans right till the defeat is outside, clearly outside for. Common a common goal. But. The closest that you can come to that. Actually happening in reality is is sort of covert. Yeah and what we've seen is that. The way we have responded to it has been to politicize it, and that makes it very difficult to even react or make make productive changes. A Matt actually is a great demonstration of how I think really dangerous floors. Asian can be if everything is politicizing. Then the point of every decision is for your party to win not for people to everyone in the country to do well and survive. This is Did we ever? Can you ever think tried think of any point that I've been alive? Were the predominant focus I've saw in? Politics was on common. Common Humanity I. Mean that should be the goal, but I can't remember it ever existing. Can you ending the closest that we come? That was actually criticized. This is a nineteen fifty the American Political Science Association Editors wrote a letter for their annual meeting. which they always do, and but in one hundred fifty, the letter said we need the parties to be more distinguishable there to each other voters don't have clearer information because the two parties basically look the same, and so there's you know we mean more polarization to give voters a better Q. About which side they should vote for ladies have there's no. There's no difference right now. And it wasn't that the both parties were sort of working for the common good, but actually they were so similar. To each other at that point in time that there wasn't a lot of information for voters about which party was best for them and kind of either one would have been fine. For White. Voters in at that period. That's interesting. Yeah, that wasn't in my lifetime. Or Yours. Talk. And you make important distinctions I think might help people frame various issues today, and and see it in a clear one interesting distinction you make is between social, pours ation and policy polarization was there. There was a time when they were more aligned. Is that right than than we see today? So. Really, what it is is that as political service scientists we have thought about hours. Ation adds a divide between policy preferences, and so for instance when people. Measure polarization within Congress. They look at how everyone voted on various fills in. See you know. How far are Republicans from? On average each of these bills that they vote for. So the assumption is always been that the that the way to measure polarization is to look at issue preferences policy preferences. The problem is that a lot of a lot of Americans have very conflicting issue policy preferences the average American is generally to the left of center in their policy preferences across a range of issues, and but also more Americans fall themselves conservatives and call themselves liberal, so there's a lot of confusion in terms of what Americans understand about ideology and policy, and what the government does, and so the you know as I was starting this project. What I was thinking was. You know we know things about Intergroup conflicts that can predict outcomes where groups really hate each other, and that has nothing to do with what a government does. It has nothing to do with the with the policy preferences of the people in the groups and a lot of times. It's very basic human. Psychology reasons for having Intergroup conflict and that that hadn't really been applied to. Political party at that point. With one exception. And and so this that's me. It was hard to make the argument right because political scientists don't WanNa, think that democracy is a bunch of people making fun of team oriented just like lashing out type choices in their votes. They won that that voters are are thoughtful and rational and making the choice that is the best for the most people that's democracy democracy supposed to be. But it really turns out. It's not it's not that way, and so you can set a hugh separate these two concepts. It becomes a lot easier to understand what's going on in America offset. Well, it's not a surprise to me as someone who's studied narcissism and self esteem, and what happens when our ego is threatened in some way or identity. An identity is. So to speak as threatened to take everyone's threatening everyone's. Identity Ego right now. Yeah, I mean well. This goes back. Even just you know. The Minimal Group paradigm experiments of social identity theory from Tosh fell in the nineteen seventies stuff. We! First of all. It's extremely reproducible. And it's also really demonstrates a very simple idea, which is basically that even in the like Weakest Group Identity Right? Someone just told you that you're in a group and you don't know any other members and you're never gonNA. Meet them. Even in that scenario, people still privilege if they have like allocate money to people, people still privilege, their own groups victory over the greater good scenario. Minin that week week identity. So we should expect it to continue to happen as identities, Bros drawbridge stronger, but that's a real challenge for democracy. If everyone who feels a social attachment to a party, prefers partisan victory even at a loss to their own party. You know overall, but if they're you know they, they get less than they get more than other sign. If, they prefer that the overall greater good of the nation. That's not gonNA work out for. Democracy that's. For the nation. Yeah. There's some real threats democracy. Now there's no. There's no way of sure cutting that right. I maybe would have sugar coated like. Seven years ago, but I feel like there's just no way show. I think more sugar coating except I think. I was even sugar coating the concluding chapter my bus. It's my yeah. Trying to find a way for there to be a happy ending, where everything's okay, and it's just it doesn't seem to be. fixable, I think my only optimism right now is the is sort of the. The reckoning with racial justice that we're having at this point, this to me is the only possible path forward for democracy to function the only possible way is for us as a nation deserted of rip off the band Geico of of his legacy of widespread. Because what's happens, the parties have become divided along the lines of does racism exists. And that is sort of the new sort of deepest cleavage between the parties is does stomach racism exists in America? and has it been been existing forever an ineffectively? Our parties have divided on this idea, so if we don't have serve, Hash out this question going to be hard for us to cooperate or a really talk honestly through any other problem agree. And this is something I found. Really elucidating in your burke is talking about how different political parties have become more socially homogeneous and these different clusters that we now see together where you have like multiple identities clustered together which give power to an identity. You know to particular Dandy if you have you know three or four different. Religion Race Gender you see these things all cluster together under under party lines. You can have very powerful force for good or bad on both sides, but can you tell me actually how how we're seeing that social margining right now, so the data basically show for a long time. We've been seeing the Republican party becoming sort of more, white and more. Evangelical in particular. Recently in recent years I would say not even before trump increasingly. Rural. Whereas Democrats are are more urban and suburban. People are in the middle somewhere. The AN place based identity can be a real actual strong identity if it's if it's being threatened. The gender gap is increasing so women tend to be Democrats more than men. and. and the Democrats are this this really large coalition of Non White Non Evangelical. Everyone else right now where it's the people people who live really diversed areas. That's where the Democrats tend to be. So the as those so really what we have is you know kind of this both rural urban divide education based increasing in education based abide twenty sixteen was the very first time that class was not a dividing factor between the parties like they were equally equally working class versus middle class. And that's partially because we used to. Education income are obviously correlated but we used to have both of those pointing in the same direction or more highly educated people and more wealthy people were Republican and Twenty sixteen changed, so that more highly educated people were Democrats more highly income. People were still Republicans, so the total effects of class is is. Canceled out in two thousand sixteen, and we don't know if that's just gonNA stay there. It's been like cross. So that we ended up with these different sort of different coalitions now. Look. That's really interesting like I really. Kind of want to zoom on nanosecond because you're seeing. Almost like. Trick me from talk. Absolute nonsense, but. It almost seems like we're seeing on the the trump party lines. a lot of low income. White people feeling aggrieved and on the Democrat lines. You have a lot of African Americans whoa income, maybe same income line, but African American identity, just african-american. You know the feeling aggrieved, so yes, you're right. It doesn't seem like it's. It's strictly about the the class or the economics, but it does feel more and more racial. Talking nonsense not at home. Okay? Yeah, I mean. This is the age old problem of American you know. especially black white relations in American history and society is that poor white people have always been incentivized to to discriminate against for black people, so they don't all gather together and rise up against the wealthy right. It's why don't they get together in? There's more power in working together. Then divided right well, so the so this actually goes back to the status. Thing that we're talking about if you want, your people are willing to sacrifice as long as their group is better than the other group, right, and so the the the scenario. What WB device falls of the wages of whiteness where where essentially poor white workers? Workers were given social status instead of a wage instead of instead of extra money so that they had they they felt themselves to be morally, and biologically superior, can entitled Entitle Yeah, but even in like reality like they were actually like even better, you know schools, and they were given better access to you know bursary stores and neighborhoods, and and so the the even if they're making the same amount of money. They have this social status that particularly if they're not making a lot of money. They're very desperate to Defense Bryant. If you lose that status than he was everything. That's the only thing making you feel like you're not the bottom of the ladder in society. And so that that divide as long as as long as we have or white people feeling that they have this status advantage. Over for black people than there will not ever be a cooperation between them to everyone's economic outcomes such a shame it. It feels like they should bond more with each other like you y'all have. Called in, couldn't we have a leader that kind of inspires them all to? kind of see, see each other in each other. That's. Certainly right. Can divide people so it it could be possible that we could have a leader that found a way to to kind of cross. That barrier at the problem is, but the. Problem is deeply psychological, though because we value. That's why you're on the. Value our status more than we value money. and. Because it, it's such a core part of our self esteem, and that we already to defend at all costs. You can't just can't live a life without feeling that you have some steam. Right in some way in your life. And so people are, there's a lot there's A. There's a book called Dying Whiteness that measured health outcomes for white people in areas where no largely were led by. You don't sort of Republican very very conservative. You know small government type of leaders and lots of those types of voters in the end. They were losing years off their lives. Because of the decisions they were making largely because they don't want black people to get those things right. If you give people if you give everyone healthcare than black people get healthcare just as much as white people get healthcare, and then where's that satis? They don't have any more than they're not different from it from the Black People's to me why that sounds a bit. Illogical is that black people are people? The thing is like we're all people and you have people who who are white and it's like Yeah WanNa. Help poor white people want to help them, but I don't WanNa help black poor people, but you're all people and you're all poor, so it just kind of. Mind that way of thinking. We kind of made a deal to decide that black people were not evil Well, that's that's what it is, and so you. You had to have a whole lot of motivated reasoning war psychological work. If people had to do to convince themselves, the black people were not people for hundreds of years. And it hasn't been hundreds of years since since there. And so was four hundred years of slavery We haven't even. Approach? Path at. The end of slavery in certainly in Santa Jim Crow. So, so we spend a lot of time, you know really embedding idea that people were not people. In the minds of of White Americans and that takes time to change, and it's also just a very simple Q.. Bright, like it's, it's not hard to. It's not a Catholic and Protestant. You know hating each other on site. The. Maybe there are some visual cues in the way people people look, but in general the ways they know, the sort of that type of religious divide is different than a black white by which is very visible. And, in fact, the Local scientists. Michael Tessler has written a lot about this. How the Obama presidency is was sort of the impetus for a lot of remaining for White Democrats to leave the Democratic Party. Just because they weren't paying attention to politics, they weren't no watching politics on TV they reading about politics, but the simple queue of you know what the president looked like. Told them that they didn't belong in that. And, so it was nothing Obama said, or did it was just the simple fact of his face, being on the new in the newspaper that they walked. To Work That's that's literally it like the color of Skin Gif. It's very easy to see and so for people who otherwise are not paying attention to anything. It's very sick these simplest maybe step for gender. It's the simplest Q. Maybe more than gender actually. I'm excited to announce the psychology podcast now has a patriotic page. You'RE GONNA. Love our new exclusive episodes, just for Patriots subscribers. There'll be a couple of months. That only will be accessible. If you subscribe through Patriae on also there'll be all sorts of tears that will give you the opportunity to not only access p trying to only episodes, but you also get an opportunity to join the community. Community ask your own questions of new guests and even have thirty minute. skype called me each month. Also for reach our monthly goal, we will donate ten percent of all proceeds to an organization dedicated to helping people with mental health. Check out our pitch on h today by going to patriotdepot dot com slash psych podcast. That's P., A. T. R., E., O. N. DOT, com slash psych podcast. Back to the show. You know when I was reading your book. You talked about George Washington's frightful despotism and I was just so taken back by. If he was alive today, he would say he would be frightful. You think any serious, yeah. Can you explain like just remind them what the foot frightful does in Washington's farewell address. He specifically warned. Americans, not to form political parties that they grew very attached to. Because if they did that then first of all, they wouldn't care about America as a whole anymore. It provides an opportunity for foreign interests. said foreign interests to divide us against each other. It provides an opportunity for people who want to meddle with the success of of American democracy to have a very natural. Place to try to start dividing Americans and damaging American democracy. And he specifically warned against this and saying that you know if we have these partisan identities that it will take on a life its own it will become. Rightful and and then the following election day created parties. And then and then the rest is history. The Constitution didn't plan for parties. They assumed that the that the largest fights that we would be having would be between big states and small states. That's the way the constitution was built. To to make sure that we balance between big and small states, and it just didn't think about parties at all. And, so a lot of our problems assumed that rational people would make the best choice reason. We have the Electoral College. For instance is at the founders didn't trust electorate to make the best choices some know there may be a demagogue who comes along sometime and and convinces people to support him even if it doesn't mean he's not messing the best candidate for America and in that case Electoral College was supposed to change the will of America. That was reason that they're they're. They're supposed to overturn the popular vote the entire purpose of it. And so, but but were they didn't see coming, was it? Partisanship would make it so that no one is going to change their vote in the Electoral College. Even if they think the candidate is a bad candidate because they need that victory. Where people in Washington's Day in politics were they were they more thoughtful and reasonable and cordial. What was different? Well? The first thing to note is that in that period of time it was only white. landowning men were allowed to vote. Okay so in that sense, yes, the right, the people that were most worried about making bad choices were white, landowning men, who maybe were uneducated or unsophisticated in some way and this. Is the electoral college we overtime. So that in the to begin with, that was a very small electorate. And then you know I think during Washington's time. There were there enlightenment ideas right? They were trying to create a new type of of government, and so there was a sort of lofty ideals being thrown around. But people who own slaves and and understood that. All are not created equal as long as you think of you know blacks, human beings as human beings. So so there was a you know there's there's a deep paradox at the core of American democracy that we've never really dealt with But I but I they these they had good. They had lofty ideas. They just They didn't really live them out and not sure anyone really has fully lived them out since then. Talk now about how? There's a lot of emotion driven action. Why are we so motion? And why do emotions matter appraisal theory I saw? That basically says if you're feeling threatened, and you know the source of your threat. The threat is coming from then you feel angry and anger is an approach emotion, so we should expect you to go into action. If you feel threatened, and you don't know where the threat is coming from, you don't understand the source of your threat that will lead to anxiety and anxiety is a is a withdrawal emotion, is so he? Instead of approaching you move away and sink about what to do. And so the the ideas that anger should drive people into action. Anxiety should actually pull them back. From action. So, one really easy way for a leader for instance to make people angry, rather than anxious is to say hey. I know you're feeling really threatened and sort of uncertain in these these crazy times. I'm GonNa tell you who to blame. Whether it's true or not, and as soon as I tell you to blame, then you can become angry. And then you go. Participate in politics and become then take action. And to some degree, that's what trump did with the trump ace. He took a bunch of people who are feeling to sort of ilise with the way society was going with the way they felt they were being treated by the. You know kind of liberal elites with. The the liberalisation of our sort of moral society and also bad economic times, and and you know economic challenges, and the hollowing out Abro America through all of these things. Knicks together created a sense of something's not right I. Think a lot of people didn't know what to wear to play stat. that. Of Discomfort threat. And so to have a leader come along and say it's the immigrants. You should be wall to to stop them again, and then you'll feel better, and so now you know who to attack you know who's the bad guy? It's the moments so then everyone feels instead of anxious and uncertain. They feel very certain and ready to go, and it's an. He mobilized people who weren't previously voting by. Converting these these sort of. Uncertain people into very certain very angry and very motivated people. I think probably the you know the the major. It question is what's going to happen this next election. Now that people have seen the truth and that I think America will really be tested in a in a big way with this next election. It's yeah, so this is this is the. Very versatile very uncertain question answered the question, and also it is a very risky time. I think that we have it. It's a time. There's an opportunity for a lot of really big changes, but we don't know which way those changes are going to go. So the actually, the project that I'm working on now with Nathan Calma Lsu is a second book on sort of what partisan. How far partisanship go to. Just make people dislike each other, but you know even dehumanize, and and all the way up to approve of against people on the other side people on the other party. So we're looking also looking at what happens when an election is de-legitimize when the outcome of an election is not considered legitimate by large portions of evil. In so far what we've found is that there's sort of this this like five to fifteen percent of Americans an, we've done like seven eight surveys at this point measuring these same things, generally five fifteen percent of partisans who are willing to advocate for political violence. Against the other party. Including against regular people in the electorate, not just party leaders and that number stays in that general realm. Now if you think about what is, let's say ten percent of Partisans in America. We have millions and millions and millions of those people. But the main thing that we found. Is that they they can be brought down from that attitude. So elite rhetoric really really matters so whatever leaders are saying they can make people approve of violence less by saying something pacified, and they can meet. People feel more approving violence by saying something. Approving violence so? Something of a lot of attention to right now is what our political leaders saying in terms of. Violence, encouraging the types of action. That that might that might be you know extremely. Damaging down the road and turned back to the election. Everyone. I'd like to take a moment to talk about one of our sponsors Helix sleep. Are, you not able to sleep lately because of stress and anxiety. 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That's helixsleep dot com slash psychology. is a really good deal, so get a new bed today and treat yourself. Okay now back to the show. Thought, it was really interesting how you talked about activism. You recall you say activism may have increased over the last few decades, but this is not necessarily a responsible outcome based participation. Do you have any Christians of current activism efforts now? I mean I think it's more of an overall in influential scientists feel we tend to think about act political action as completely one hundred percent normative good. Byes, museum, the people are acting rationally and so the more people that are participating in politics. The better electorate represents the whole country, and so we have a better and stronger democracy, so we have more people voting. That's more buy in operation. That's just good, purely good with the American. Public. But like I said before with the anger. Issue sometimes people participate in politics not because they've really fought through policy preferences and what they want the government's view, but instead because somebody just told them who blame for all their problems, and so they get up. And in that scenario. That's not normally good. Participation Right? That's not necessarily representing a a well reasons Policy Agenda for the future of the federal government. It's it instead. It's really sort of just wild participation and. It's very hard. You know you can't just draw simple line to distinguish between those two things. But but I was I really wanted to make the point that it's possible to have activism. That isn't normative good. It's a sort of you know that's fine, but that's my I wonder. If this all to another point you made which I thought was wonderful. Because it's just not pointed out that often and that's. Just because you have an in group doesn't mean you have to hate your out. Group there can be. There can be healthy activism in a sense. You have great pride for your group. You want to fight for rights fear in group, but that's what you're fighting for not specifically to eradicate now group, so that somehow seems related to maybe different types of activism efforts. Yeah, I think that was a really important. Part of the theory that was advanced by Marilyn brewer in the late nineties early two thousands, which is that? Ingraham, love is one part of of an identity and outgrew. Pate is another part and they don't always go together. The net serves a first instinct of social identity is affiliate into feel close to the people in your group, and to hope that they are better than the other people right, but not necessarily to hate the other. And the hatred comes when there is either a conflict over resources between the groups, or if there has already become a complete lack of trust between the groups, because then in that scenario, and this I, think really is reflected in the covert response, you know, everyone says let's have this subordinate threat, and then everyone like a threat to all of America and then Democrats, and Republicans will work together well, but if Democrats and Republicans don't trust one another, they don't. They don't trust each other to address the threat in the right way, and they are fearful that the other side will. Will address a threat in the wrong way? Actually harm them. And so in that scenario with lack of trust, a super ordinate threat can actually make the to make the worse. Well. That's what we've seen. Yeah I know but like this. In in terms of responses to the you know. The virus recommendations. Dr Mason water human so horrible. To each other. So I. Don't think we're horrible. I know I'm kind of being cheeky because I. I'm a humanistic psychologist. I'm ultimately optimistic about humanity. Young species still and and. It actually makes a lot of sense for us to warm bonds with other people. and to enter create boundaries around where that group ends, and another group begins right the only way for us to have society. Is Understand. You know who you are as a part of that society, and who is who is like you in that society? And if you think back to sort of you, know like evolutionary psychology, you know in the village days there are real boundaries between between groups of people geographical boundaries between groups of people. And it was. It's important to know that you have loyalty to your group, and you're willing to, and you're willing to defend your group. That's that it you know. Families are like that and and any any. Group of people that share something that they want either want to maintain or that. They feel as being threatened. They will behave that way, and that can be an honorable thing. Or you can use it to destroy people. And you can use it to intentionally as George, Washington Warren. You can use it to intentionally turn people against each other. To harm an entire nation, and I think we see that an election meddling foreign election meddling doesn't take a whole lot to make Americans each other by. You know by quitting symbolic out there. We already hate each other, so you just have to really. that. And and and so it it's a it's a tool for good and for evil and. Some people are you know? On on an international level. Would prefer that we don't exist in me. Feel in. That makes us behaviorally badly. Jilin as American. But. A point I just WanNa return to which is the crux of your entire book and and and I think it's a captured by this quote. American partisans can grow increasingly socially distant from one another, even if they're policy, disagreement are not profound. This gets it the. Let's zoom in on. Basically, this is the crux of your work, so isn't isn't there something a glimmer of hope it? Will if we actually started. Chipping our focus to the things that we agree on, we may realize. Wow, there's actually more here than. Than than meets the eye. If we immediately start to heat someone I'm not as optimistic about that one because. I actually Rep. You know so I'm going beyond the book. I replicated this the two thousand sixteen election data. And it's still. The average American is slightly to the left. If you average the issue positions across like six, really contentious issues. A you look at you know how well Americans put their issues on late. You know so, if Democrats are on the liberal side of an issue for Republicans are on the conservative side of an issue. How correct our people you know at holding the right issue positions generally, neither Democrats or Republicans are very good at at sort of holding the correct issued possessions for their party, or even just being on the right side of the of middle and and so. The, the two thousand sixteen electorate, one that actually there was plenty of room for people to collaborate on it was. There's so much overlap in what Americans actually think. America's not twitter right like the average American, who is ask questions about what they want. Government to do is or they think society to do. There's there's a huge amount of of room for compromise in policy along. But then you ask those same people how they felt so asking Republicans how they felt about Democrats and vice versa. Hate each other. Even in the same survey, same people in the same survey. They really hate the other part. Political part the people in the political party while the other party and they also really love there. So, even in a single set of respondents that has tons of as you based overlap. They still really don't like the people on the other side. And that's. The Policy Agreement won't work until the until the. Social. Divide is is address I. Think it's just too rational well arteries. I'm going to keep trying to get hope here. you you do mention the psychotic literature. Some things we know that might help with Intergroup reconciliation. Let's for the remainder of this podcast is briefly touch on some of these things, so maybe we have some people listening in a position of policy, or or you can make a change, and they can dopson these principles, so one is contact theory you say while exposure to opposing political ideas and individuals can moderate intolerance and polarization. This exposures growing far less frequent. Can we increase exposure across party lines or one of the original studies on this was during the Korean War the United United States armed forces were desegregated, but it was done so battalion by battalion in almost random order. It was just wherever they need more troops. They would desegregate that battalion, so it was sort of like a natural experiment and sociologists interviewed all of these soldiers in both the desegregated, and the still segregated Italians, and what they found was that the white soldiers in the desegregated battalions were much more racially tolerant. than the white soldiers in still segregated battalions. So, that was a that was a great example of you know it's just contact, but it's it's not only contact. It's contact in a scenario in which they are in the two groups are not competing over resources there. They're not even competing over hierarchy because those you know. The military hierarchy assignments are relatively strict, and so they are what they are, and also they're all working towards a common goal. The Soup Nichols is you talk about race, which really only work if you have those other two things so. So the you know one of the sort of like moonshot ideas that I think about is like a national service program where we intentionally move people to other parts of the country, they wouldn't otherwise go and expose them to people. You know like high, do mandatory gap year after high school and and move into a place where they wouldn't otherwise be exposed these people. And you know, and then that would give it would give some sort of either tuition benefit or you know an honor, so he put on your CV your resume and easier to get hired, and then freshman year in college. Ideally you could have some kind of required debrief force where every freshman those into the debrief and talks about what happened over the. The last year, and how this would be sort of social relationships worse so that they can understand exactly what happened to them and be more aware and a more mindful about the way they about other people in the way they judge other people in general, that I think would be the most ideal way to educate sort of the next generation of Americans. You know you're seeing some. Hopeful snapshots of protests on the news where you see like the police and the protesters doing the dance together. You know you see these these flickers moments i. what positive that is going to be, but they warned my heart when I see such things you know you see. People who they're supposed to. Haiti told they're supposed to hate each other, and they just put it down for a second decide. We're not going to hate each other for a second. You know like I see these glimmers, yeah! I mean honestly the thing one of the things that gives me the most is the is the is the diversity of the protesters. I've noticed that, too. It's you know people compare this nineteen succeed all the time. It's very different. Relenting succeed because these protests are very very diverse in this spike Lee said when he was interviewed recently. Yeah, he's like it's amazing. The difference it's huge and honestly wetted springing up is not just police reform, but a a call for Americans White Americans in particular to understand that lack Americans have been living under different type of state than white. Americans have been living there. And what we've seen recently in recent, even just recent decade. That's our recent years before the protests is starting in. You know when fifteen is that why Democrats have be have been becoming a lot more aware of stomach, racism, systemic racism over over the trump presidency. where I mean it's massive. It's something like you know. People who agree that the government needs to do more to help blacks American society that goes from forty something percent of why Democrats to eighty something percent of White Democrats by twenty nineteen. So there's there's really big changes happening among White Democrats in. About awareness of what's happening to Americans in our in our society, and you know the fact that we're seeing confederate statues come down now, right? That's not up lease. That's about saying the civil war never really ended or lease. The confederacy was never fully defeated, because all of these laws were put in place to truly fullback black Americans and and I. Really I really do think that part of the reason we can say this now is that there's an was never happened before. There's an entire political party that believes that the semi is exists. Democratic Party like white. The people and everybody else in the democratic. Party basically believe that the Semitism insists, and we've never had an entire political party that leaves that before. We've always had sort of white supremacists scattered through both Republican and Democratic parties, and there wasn't a big difference, and that's part of the reason could get along and like eight compromises right in the nineteen eighties, Democrats and Republicans could make compromises because. They all agreed that like okay. We'll do this, but only for white people. And and so this this sort of suppression of the knowledge of systemic racism allowed to WanNa. Operation in Congress. But that doesn't help. That doesn't help us as a society as a whole and so I really think that a large part of this is that because the parties have changed socially the some demographic makeup of the parties has changed so much in recent decades that is allowing a lot local power. Than has ever been applied to the the idea that Democrats isn't exists. It's bad in. It should be, and it would be really nice if everyone could. Get a rally around fax and not just ideologies and that we agreed. This, we agree this is factually a problem. We don't agree that there's a property that we could somehow come towards some sort of agreements on these things, but because there's there's widely different opinions on the extent of the systemic racism and I don't think. There's a definitive answer i. just read a really fascinating article by SONAE respect John Order who is a African American I believe conservative talking about. Saying there really isn't good data that the police force is racist. There's a real there's a problem, but we could all rally around the problem of police corruption. Regardless of your race, you know there's a lot of white people killed by police, and there's so so some some reasonable people and I would not see John. mcquarters racists. You know just for for presenting a different viewpoint you know. How how do we listen to different viewpoints and try to try to agree on facts? I think it's really important for us to keep in mind the difference between a person being racist society. Disadvantage in Cincinnati damaging people right? It's not that one person is racist. It's that you know we had red lining so that black families were not allowed into neighborhoods and we had neighborhood organizations didn't allow families to buy houses in those neighborhoods. Those neighborhoods were the ones who good schools and this was happening, not even fifty years ago. So this is happening in my dad's gender in generation. And this is I. Think the idea is not that were. Were pointing fingers at people on saying you're a racist if race racism. has existed in American society since the very beginning. And we've been on this sort of constant journey to try to eliminate it the in the system, not even just an individual people's minds, but just to change the. redlining became illegal. In the sixties, so you know racial discrimination, technically illegal, starting in nineteen, sixty four. But that was nineteen sixty four. That was not very long ago and then there are plenty of people in charge were still upholding that old system a systemic racism, so it's you know I. Think it's a really important. It's a really important thing for people to separate the idea of like being called racist. And understanding our society, and the and the institutions upon which we live frightened. And, I do I. DO think there is one one bit of hope is that we've also seen white republicans becoming slightly more aware of Semitism also holding fewer negative stereotypes of black Americans so it's so republicans are also becoming more aware of this. It's just that the gap between white. Democrats and Republicans is still very large, but the but the changes are happening both parties, so there is a general move. For standing. The discrimination that black Americans face on a day-to-day basis and And the idea that you know we shouldn't hold this news negative stereotypes. That there are not there are not serotype based differences between white and black and so interesting. You see my point how? People really are not agreeing right now. On the extent of the various aspects of American Cyrus are systemically racist. Even people might say that racism does exist and acknowledge that, but there seems to be. Quite quite wild disagreement Wi-. Even within the Democratic Party. I see lots of arguments on twitter, even within the Democrat some people. Will say how dare you even question that it's pervasive. They they merely start hating each other without even discussing it. It's very frightening thing to admit right. You're a white person has been living in a society that has been benefiting you and harming other people. At your you've been benefited by at the expense of this other group of people. That's a hard. That's a hard thing to take on as just John mcquarters black. The the guy who wrote that I mean, but it is a whole philosophy the difference. I think historians generally agree. Right like the historians of American history agree that that American political history agree that that we have had a systemically racist system since the founding. The question is right. Obviously, it was a cemetery racist when people were enslaved slaves. And then once they were no longer enslaved we had. Eight years of reconstruction in which there are a lot of black successful thriving black communities that were bill, and then they were literally murdered. By by white supremacists than we bombed them the white. Destroy those communities as soon as they were successful, and then, and then that led to an era of Jim Crow in which white and black people weren't allowed to use the same water films, and that was only made illegal, nineteen, sixty four and black people really only allowed to vote in nineteen, sixty five. So think about the age of your parents in that year. We're not very far away from that. And it and it takes. Have Four. Hundred Years of slavery. It's GonNa. Take a lot more time than fifty years to undo that much psychological training. It's not a question of. Do I. Think this is true. Do I, do I like what is my experience of it? The question is actually just what has happened would have been the would have been. The priorities of our government would have been the institutions in like how people treated and that. Are Pretty clear on that. Let's take a brief pause as I talk about one of our sponsors care of. 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I took the fun quiz and answered questions such. As how much sleep do you get? How often do you work out? And do you follow any specialty diets? They recommended that I take fish, oil, magnesium, Ostro Gonda, and some other supplements to help regulate my stress levels throughout the day and keep my heart healthy. I can say that after using their lenient packets for just a few days I'm feeling much better during my day and I feel much more energy for fifty percents off your I care of order. Go to take care off dot com and enter code psychology fifty. Again for fifty percent all your first order go to take care of dot. COM and enter code. PSYCHOLOGY FIFTY This is a really good deal, and you don't WanNa. Miss out on it. Okay now back to the show. What I always try to do I, really appreciate your perspective. What I always try to in the psychology, podcast is concentrating to think of alternative. Like what would someone else say to what you're saying so? That's why I'm trying to push a little bit because I mean some people you know, make arguments that. Two thousand. Twenty you know we've really come a long way. Even in thirty forty years and we focused so much on. How we haven't come that, we very rarely talk about how far we have actually common. Some people might make that point. And we have come remarkably far away, right? I mean just just that like. We said that the demographics of the demonstrators that we've been seeing all of these cities. We've come a long way, but but we also are still taking on confederate monuments. So. We and and you know tech. Those were there right after the civil war because the confederacy was rebellion against the country. There were the enemy, and so you know they were against the Union, so they were actually the bad guys, and those those those statues went up during Jim Crow to put lack people in those meetings back in their place to remind them that the people who made the decisions about where statues went, and what the statute were believe in the confederacy. So the the confederate, the fact that we still have those statues to knee suggests that there's still something very deep. That is that is? We've all just sort of you know we look past it will walk past. statues in white people don't have to worry about it. We just walked past it and don't worry. But it means something really really different. And that's. kind of crazy thing. NASCAR has prohibited the confederate flag at Nascar events like the US News Rene's just made it. No longer allowed for heap for marines to have better at flag. Stick around there. You know whatever equipment. And the flag of the confederacy was the flag of with treason. You know the the idea that we have a military group that that had for awhile allowed its soldiers to have this lag of that was based on. You know treason against America. Is really remarkable. So we've come a long way, you're right the needs. These protest demonstrations I think are really great evidence of that, but at the same time. If we if we're still flying the confederate flag at sporting events. That's. Really, clear signal to a lot of people. Are I think this is the last hopeful thing we can do. We talked about contact every talked about superordinate. Social norms, you say one way that outright partisan prejudice may be addressed is for the parties themselves to establish new norms for partisan behavour. Could you see a new leader coming to power even our current leader, somehow complete changing his whole style overnight. Definitely, not the current leader. He's not well known for controlling the language that he is. But Certainly I think leadership. Does matter the. Even going back like our parents generation right like the the use of derogatory racial slurs. Our parents generation was much more widespread than it is today. And now we just find it completely socially acceptable to say horrible things about political. Partisans on the other side. It's completely acceptable for us to. You know call Liberals or Democrats. OUGHTA words in same thing for publicans conservative so. That's me seems like a a norm that could be challenged. It's it's certainly anti-democratic and the idea that we're just allowing people. Not allowing you can't control. People say, but but the way that we change the use of derogatory racial slurs that we made it a norm. That's not okay to do that. And, and so it's possible that this act the way that we talk about each other as Democrats and Republicans can. Could shift if we wanted it to. Right if we wanted to create new norms around the way that we talk about each other, politically That could potentially shift behavior. Have had that type of language, not e. On you know news or a public media or any type of? ocular. Popular Media. Because right now it's it's just it's so much more acceptable to to use. These really awful words against Democrats Republicans in. It is about any other group. At all. Agreed and people are. Getting more likes on twitter among your fan base. Are you're in group if you use such words well neutering? Ninety-four New Gingrich wrote. What's called the go pack memo which which? which was a list of words that you should use to business? Four Paul Looking for Freshmen Republicans in the new ninety five congress, where they first took over Congress in public government Congress, WHO FIRST TIME IN FORTY YEARS! And he gave them a list of words that they should be using to talk about Republicans those were like Patriot, loyal family, and then words it should be used to talk about Democrats and those are things like. Cancer. Evil serpents just like really terrible. Terrible language and that that really serpents bed. At. Yeah I. Think the Bible. Okay. Cool? Okay. But point. I think that sort of did usher in a new era of like. Oh, to talk about people this way, right Newt Gingrich oldest. We could do so. We're labs cities. As I was woken a book I was like. Is there any good news at all and I found one thing? Let's leave on on this You talked about importance of self affirmation it people want to. There's so much ego threat going on right now and in everyone wants to matter i. mean everyone see you see it. You see a desperate cry. You know I saw. This protest in England, three people with white white people matter science. Everyone wants to matter. You wrote the good news. Is that cone at all two thousand seven have found that simply reminding a person of their own self worth a technique called self affirmation can significantly reduce extremism and ideological caused mindedness. You think perhaps there's some way that we could all listen more to each other and affirm each other's basic worth and dignity as as a human being. That requires us to do that ourselves I. The Nice thing about the easy thing about affirmation is that you can do it on your own right. It's just like. Sit Down and write about time when you felt proud of yourself for five. Just, do that and you'll be a nicer person after you do that. The problem is that it's really hard for us to internalize these really positive ideas about ourselves. We're not going to be able to treat other people with kindness, until we're not that self affirmation and retreating ourselves with kindness and believing in our own self worth. and. That's a lot that that can be a challenge that that in it could be something leadership could address right there could be. A source of you know creating a source of pride creating a source of healthy. Yeah outside of the bounds of of partisanship. and. That's that is a possible. That is possible at forward. If there's something we do as Americans that that makes us feel good about ourselves than than we may be able to get out of this. We need a really inspirational leader. I feel like I want to run for president. I. Know What my message would be. Of Uniting. Song. As a single species. Anyway look you say quote I maintain that intellectual that is emotional engaged politically activated on behalf of prejudice and misunderstanding is not an electorate that produces positive outcomes. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and offering your wonderful research so timely right now more so than he'd probably ever would have imagined, even hope for. You probably wish your work wasn't so timely. Like that. That's right. That's exactly right. Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us today on the psychology podcast, and all the best with your new book as well it was. It's my pleasure. Thank you so much. There's a lot of fun. Thanks for listening to this episode of the psychology podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard. Encourage you to join in the discussion at thus ecology podcast dot com. That's the psychology PODCASTS DOT COM. Also please a reading and review of the podcast on itunes and subscribe to the psychology podcast YouTube channel as we're really trying to increase their viewership on Youtube. In fact, many of these episodes are in video format on Youtube Co definitely want to check out that channel. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the podcast and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior and creativity.

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The Impact of Police Violence on Health

The Pulse

48:57 min | 9 months ago

The Impact of Police Violence on Health

"Major funding for the pulses provided by leadership gift from the Sutherland family, the Sutherland support whyy and its commitment to the production of programs that improve our quality of life. This is the pulse. The people and places at the heart of Health and science I'm Mike and Scott. For My cubicle at work, I can see the Philadelphia police headquarters the roundhouse as we call it because of its distinct shape the last few days, members of the National Guard with auto matic weapons have been standing there. The National Guard was called into Philadelphia after protests against police violence. Last weekend escalated. Helicopters have been flying over the city nonstop protests. Police everywhere roads are closed and we've had a curfew. The marches and rallies against police violence sparked by the killing of George Floyd at the hands of police are happening all over the country. They are once again. Bringing an issue to the forefront that is part of everyday life for many as are turned forty. I had the realization that I've been stopped by police more times than my age I've been stopped while driving cars sitting in parked cars, writing buses and trains walking running studying eighteen clubbing. Out thrown against walls. And arrested by police. Shawn Ray, he is an associate professor of sociology at the University of Maryland. College Park he is also a Rubinstein fellow at the brookings. Institution and he wrote an essay called. Bad apples come from rotten trees and policing. As? The father of two black boys a worry about the moment they will go from cute to criminal in the eyes of so many people. How people were dehumanize their minds. Weaponized their blackness in criminalize their bodies. As a little kid rock giana thought about police in a totally different way. A lot of his family members were police officers. They have always been. A group of people who are viewed as a place where I could go for safety, where could go for refuge? Where could have a conversation with? When he was about ten, he noticed another side of police. He was living in Atlanta. Saying police officers have some black teenagers handcuffed. Face down on the asphalt similar to the way we seem George Floyd. Going to baseball game with his mom and he saw a Klan rally. Police officers were standing there as we're firefighters, just having a very casual conversation with the clan. Now as a sociologist Rayon studies policing, he's interviewed hundreds of officers. He's worked with different police departments. He's interested in finding out what contributes to racial equity in policing. So are there some best practices? Are there some factors that we can put into a statistical model that tell us word good policing looks like his research looks at bias and prejudice. Officers may have and then. Then how these attitudes and people's physiological reactions which we're able to measure with our virtual reality simulations that we have officers go into. We can measure officers heart rates their stress level their reaction time their movement. How do all these factors coming impact behavioral outcomes and at the end of the day? What we want to see is that officers react the same way to. To black people as they do to white people like Ray Schon researchers, all over the country and the world are studying policing. What's the role of science in all of this? You know, I, think police, departments and scientific research haven't always gone hand in hand I mean. You're exactly right, and I feel like I. Sit at that intersection. I think science is vital the same. Same Way. The scientific evidence is vital for Covid nineteen. We also need data and science driven approaches to deal policing and what they will say, though, is that a lot of the police chiefs that I interact with? They are very data driven in the more data that they're provided the better decisions. They actually make four for pretty much every department that I've interacted with. them their data where their gaps are whether or not, they're more likely to exhibit buying based on race or based on gender based on place, and we talk about whether solutions to. They're really open to dealing with those solutions, but I think part of the problem is they're rarely. Do we have complete data to paint a fully scientific and statistical poetry? And that's really what I've been doing is building up databases on police officers and policing Becky Lynn Helpless make better decisions moving forward. On today's show, what could better policing look like? And what are we learning about? The impact of police violence on people's House. Let's start with health issues that are connected to police violence this past weekend. A Young Black Protester in Minneapolis filmed by CNN expressed what it's like to live in constant fear of police I want to be able when a cop driving behind me, I don't have to clinch and be okay. I wanted to be able just to be free and not have to think about every step I take because at the end of the day. Being black is a crime. Crime at the end of the day. Being born black is a crime to them and I. DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY 'cause we're all humans, you can hear the stress and exhaustion in his voice Harvard. University Public Health Researcher David Williams studies the impact of police violence on people's health. He says fear of police is one big issue. And he told me about how this affected a friend of his. He was a successful businessman, but he was a young African American male. and. If his wife needed him to go to the supermarket and pick up a gallon of milk, he would go first to his bedroom puts on a jacket and tie before he went out to run this simple. Erin because if for him. It was one way of minimizing the chances that he will be taken for some thug. WHO's about to commit a crime? This has come up in David's life to. He says his wife is worried about him. All the time and Mike Two Daughters were driving along the road one day in Massachusetts a few years ago and they heard on the news. They will listen to a new station and it says. african-american Harvard professor arrested by the police. And the pulled over because they wondered. COULD THAT BE DADDY? And it turned out. It was my colleague Skip Gates who got arrested by the police, if alternately for entering his own apartment, but but I mean it's lived with. They were immediately stressed because they saw themselves that this could be. This could be real. This could hit home. We know that in terms of the negative effects of stress unhealth. It's not just what you actually experience, but a few of protecting yourself thinking about what might happen and taken precautionary steps that is a higher level of psychological physiological vigilance that you are maintained because of your perception of environment is dangerous I'll tell you the body of research. It's what's called an ambulatory blood pressure study mutate blacks and whites who don't have hypertension, and you hook them up to little device that takes their blood pressure levels at random intervals of course of the day and night while asleep, and if found among these young healthy African Americans and whites, they were racial differences in blood pressure during the day. But at night when blacks and whites were sleeping, blacks maintained higher levels of blood pressure even while they're sleeping. What was happening is for everyone when you fall asleep. Your blood pressure declines. Blacks have declined, but it's a smaller decline than whites. It's almost as if the environment is that dangerous that you have to sleep with one eye open? You cannot ever fully relaxed. Being under state of vigilance of of of protecting oneself has negative consequences for health, David and some of his colleagues recently studied mental health and. And places were a police. Shooting has happened and what we were able to document. was that a police shooting of an unarmed? African American male leads to more mental health problems, not just for his family and friends, who who's new him, but for the entire black population in that state for up to three months after the event, so it illustrates that this negative experience it has received. Publicity is adversely affecting the mental health of the entire black population who lived in that state in which police shooting occurred. That's David Williams. He's a public health, researcher and professor at Harvard University. Pediatrician Rea- Boyd has been trying to bring attention to the issue of police violence among her medical colleagues for years. What do people say when I sat this in two thousand, fourteen and two, thousand, fifteen and twenty, sixteen, and twenty, seventeen and twenty, eighteen and twenty, nine hundred. For the majority of healthcare leadership that I spoke to. It was. This isn't our problem. And this isn't a population level health issue. What you're describing rea- is a one on one encounter between one individual bad cop. And one unlucky civilian. And what people have failed to understand that? I hope they are now grasping. Is that police? Violence is the result of a systematic problem. Rio says fearing violence and witnessing violence has a big impact on kids increased society, depression, trouble sleeping, which can lead to trouble in school of her black kids in particular, and I want to say this seeing these images right now and the setting of a pandemic that we've also been consuming their racial inequities around. Has, a really profound impact on how they perceive their own blackness. And risks for data in the world. Kids, relationship to their own blackness is called the racial socialization and two black psychologists decades ago, performed those landmark. Seminal Studies. The doll studies that showed that as early as three and four preschool age kids understand. What it means to be. Black in the world. and. They understand that it's negative right now. We are adding to that negative racial socialization. Such that kids understand that being black in the world also puts them at risk of die. That will change how kids move in the world. Reassess says with everything happening right now. Parents should check in with their kids and ask them. What they already know. And how has that affected you and then hold space and listen. To how your child is feeling. And then it's really important to validate what they say. To say I understand. That makes sense. I feel like that sometimes, too. So for kids who? are, expressing negative emotions or fears related to what they've seen, sometimes just some encouragement and reassuring words about what you're doing to keep them safe can help. Rea-, Boyd is a pediatrician and a child and community health advocate in the bay area. The demonstrations that are happening all over the country have been mostly peaceful, but there have been clashes between protesters and police. We've seen police pelting people with rubber bullets, officers, beating protesters with batons, using tear-gas, and we seen protesters rocks, and said police cars on fire. Last year a pulse reporter Alan do traveled to Hong Kong the city where he grew up to cover the protest movement there. Ellen was interested in the issue of police and crowd control. How and when violence erupts, and what role police play in that and just recently? Allen covered the protests happening in Philadelphia, so we wanted to listen back to some of his story about crowd control, and then here about his new experiences. Allan the story you did last year started in Hong Kong with one of the more controversial early protests that happened there in July. Yes, so during this protest in Hong Hong that thousands of people they were gathering peacefully, but then the police officers who were there used Papa spray against some of the protesters, and the protesters started barricading roads, and then the police in riot gear, showed up and sort of surrounded the protesters, and the protesters escaped to a nearby shopping mall, and that's why the clashes continue. Okay, so let's pick up the story. You reported last year from here. That protest in July that not and well, the police arrested more than forty people. Officer had his finger bitten off the Hong Kong police that not want to comment on this story, but I did talk to my friend's father who was a police officer there for thirty years. He agreed to talk to me, but I'm not going to use his name. He retired in twenty fifteen as a chief inspector, and he's still very connected to friends on the force, and he says the protests in Hong. Kong just got out of control recently, they they. They threw three petrol bombs onto motorcycle, officers and one of the. Here's a friend of mine. Can you imagine if in states? It the put his attack by petrol bombs. I think they will already opened fire situations. Involving crowds can change very quickly. Panic can suddenly spread. People can become on edge, angry or violent. So what have police? About handling those situations, is there even a standard? One West was a police officer for thirty years before he retired this July, he was the Chief Superintendent of the West Yorkshire Police in the UK which has around five thousand officers. It's ingrained in embedded within police culture. The police that control a crowd situation the to lose control would be about thing that to have people brick police line all all defeat police tactic is in a sense, a defeat for the police one says that back in the eighties. When he became a police officer, he was taught to contain dispersed and arrest. Unruly crowds. Police could use riot gear cars. Horses tear gas batons, water cannons. But very little in those in those days was known about the psychology of crowds. So. We will in effect implementing tactics without knowing the science behind the way that people behave in a crowd what motivates crowds crowds respond to particular inputs from the police. There wasn't a lot of research back then, and in fact, bringing science into policing wasn't really a thing. This is around a police. A sense of identity which is you have to be a police officer to understand policing. And I've often heard colleague said you know what what can it an academic teach me about policing? What can unacademic tell me about on the streets? But Owen thought academia could offer some insight. In fact, he welcomed a research into his police force Clifford Stott a social psychologists Owen that cliff, with Ryan along with his offices have all the same access that Owen had in return. They collaborated on science-based. science-based crowd control tactics cliff wanted to challenge a long held belief about crowds that they have a mob mentality and are inherently dangerous. Glenn to cramped psychologically than normal way of controlling the behavior through coaches disappears as a function or becoming anonymous Clifford does not agree with that. He says crowds have a purpose. They have an identity. They are there for a reason if we think about the situation Holcombe. One of the things that must be defining. Protesters shared identity. Is that sheds struggle for what they perceive to be democracy in Hong Kong in a context where they feel that that democracy is being threatened. By the challenge government. The way he understands it. There's a social identity to crowds and Clifford. That heavy handed policing actually makes things worse because once. The crowd gets angry with the police. Their reason for being there can shift now. It's about being angry at the police on top of what their initial demands were and Clifford says that has implications most notably that the authorities. In, particular place can often have a profound role to play in producing very violence that they pretend to soak. Clifford says that means the police are not passive third party peacekeepers. They play a part in what happens. Owen says even what police officers wear can make a difference so if you go to a protest and you say offices addressed for riot. You see them dressed in. Baldia you've see the carrying shiels. Having Buttons drome. Then obviously, that is a very intimidating a very difficult. Context so, if Martin riot gear and shoots and tear gas. What could police do instead? Owen. Superintendent working with Clifford says you should find out what the crowd wants. He tried this out a few years ago. There was a soccer game on in West Yorkshire about one hundred fans gathered in the bomb somewhere on the street. Some had probably been drinking owens offices wanted to do what they've always done. Control the crowd to match them up to the football steady to use police horses to use a number of police officers, and to use the police helicopter in terms of being above them to keep surveillance on them, but Owen wanted to draw on the work he had done with. So, he chose a different tactic. Instead he asked some office to wear different colored jacket blue instead of yellow. These officers went into the ball talks to fans. Some were curious about the new uniforms. The officers found out these fans just wanted to get the game. The officers reported to Owen. The police worked cab drivers to bring people to the game in small groups Owen did not have to use any riot gear and there was no violence. That's not to say that the police liked. Was a lot of nervousness about it. There was a lot of fear that we were essentially handing this problem over to a small number of of offices, rather than that many that we had available to us, but over time this approach gained traction. Owen says the crowd control tactics that he and Clifford worked together is now mainstream among UK police. Here in the US in Madison Wisconsin more than forty years ago, a young police chief had actually reached similar conclusions about how to handle crowds. They've in Kufa was in his thirties, and he came face to face with the antiwar protests of the nineteen seventies. He started in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, two, before David Got Madison. Some of the protests went notoriously out of control. In one thousand, nine, hundred sixty seven students threw rocks at police. The police used tear-gas beat students with KLOPP's. David got there and told his officers. We are not doing any of that. Are we passed handouts and say look, we're here. We're here company this this protest our job is to. Facilitate your ability to protest to regulate traffic around you and we want to work with you. He asked his officers to wear a blue laser. Hide their weapons and just talk to the protesters, instead of going in with force initiatives to say that was not something in which which I. The community said all chief. What uh were a great idea that is, we should have thought of this a long time ago. Quite the opposite out after the to for about two years, but the mayor supported him, and so that a lot of the younger officers David. State Police Chief in Madison for twenty one years, police officers now. No his crowd control tactics as the Madison method. But many police departments are not using the more science-based approach and deal with protests in a heavy-handed way. Oh, AL, superintendent from the UK says there's a lot on the line and it can few scary to change tactics or try something new. You know you will lose control of this. That will be dissolved. There might be violence. That might be a riot. And so in many respects, commander colleagues, it's much more comfortable life to stick with what you know, and not to innovate particular with an account context, but there is more to it than just police officers being resistant to change. I talked to its Hammer Herald. She's an associate professor of criminal justice. At the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. She wrote to crowd policing guides for the US Department of Justice. Tamra agrees with what they've and Owen are saying, but she understands why. The police don't always follow her advice so an officer Cooley over a driver and deciding whether or not to give a ticket. There's tremendous amount of dining mixed those data with that, and whether that person leaves angry more. You know satisfied now you multiply that. You know by thousands by tens of thousands of individuals interacting reacting to the police in and it grows in complexity obviously tremendously. So I told to my friend's father. The retired police officer in Hong Kong and he brought up yet another point as far as what you've seen. What the Hong Kong Police have been doing, you say. This is. Not a police thing to solve it is basically it's just this central government you know is all political issue. We are just the to. Be We cannot solve political problem. That story was reported by Alan You last year Alan traveled to Hong Kong to report on the protest movement there and now he's been covering the protests against police violence in Philadelphia Allen. When you were covering the protests in Philadelphia things started out totally peacefully, and then eventually turned violent. So tell me about some of the moments that stand out to you from that day Saturday. Yeah at first, it was a totally peaceful protests. It was just people marching and chanting and listening to speeches, and things took a bit of a term once we hit a particular intersection where the Pennsylvania State troopers were waiting and small number, maybe a handful of protestors smashing one of the Pennsylvania's. Car It was inside the car, but they smashed a windshield. They tossed what look like a signal flare inside the cast burning at first the police just watch the Carber, but then they started pushing people back to form a perimeter around the burning car. Then more and more officers showed up and started really separating the large crowd into smaller groups and it's. Really shoving people back in there was nowhere to go. It wasn't clear where officers wanted people to be, and that's when the atmosphere became much more heated. Talk. Now they eventually did disperse went back down to city hall, but then there was a almond Swat van there, and some of the officers inside were spraying protests from inside the van, and that made some of the people very angry and they start at smashing and set fire to two pocked an empty police cars at City Hall and that's when I think the. The protests really took a turn now in your in your story on crowd control. You reported last year. There was a lot of advice on how police forces could do this better, so did you see any dues and dones during this protest? Yes, and I have to say at first the police officers were doing pretty well. They stood by the director traffic a little bit just to make sure that know no cost cutting people's way, and so at first I thought this would. This would end fine, but then we move onto the Jones. And once the police officers showed up with riot gear with helmets with batons and especially. Especially when the Armored Swat van showed up and started spraying the processes. That's when I thought I recall the experts telling police officers to precisely not to do that kind of thing with a peaceful crowd, and the other thing that that stood out to me, was the importance of communication it was important for the police officers to be in constant contact with the crowd. It wasn't really clear them to the protests. What the office really wanted and they would be at times. Contradictory directions so I thought that was a real breakdown in communication there which I remember as being another Viteau aspect to do in crowd policing well. So, nobody knew where they were supposed to go right. Yeah and all they would say. Was You know move back? Move Back, but then once we moved back. The officers would say go back the other way, so it was clear, even but sweetie officers themselves. They were not clear on what the direction was. Were you scared at any point? I mean you're you're right. In the middle of this I mean it did get a little bit scary I mean more also in that I was just pressed up against protestors with nowhere else to go, so was like you know being in the in the Cran the subway car where the walls were slowly closing in I thought that they will be like. A stampede or something and you know thankfully, that did not happen there so I. Guess that was the moment when I thought that we were in probably the most danger. And I guess after two months of of social distancing. That must've felt so weird. Yes, it was very strange to be around that many humans. Again we all had all the protesters had on masks on, but yes, it was a very. It had been a very long time since I had really stood back close to another person. You reached out to some of the experts. You featured in your reporting in the story. We just heard. What's their take on what has happened in the US? What continues to happen in the US right now? Yes, so I reached out to two of the experts I talked to one was Owen West. He's a retired chief superintendents of police in the UK and he was quite frank, said that he was horrified by some of the tactics that he saw the police in the US using. I have seen groups corralled. Trump's in a of account exit from I've seen them have. Deployed on them again without exit I've seen tactics that appear to me to be designed to punish crowd than to achieve any overarching public CODA type off advantage to blaze. For, the most part, he was quite worried at what he was seeing from his police colleagues in the US though he did see some moments of leadership, and he hopes that that is what police departments will learn. That's pulse reporter Alan, you. During several recent protests across the country police used tear gaps, which seemed to be the moment when things went from bad to worse. Tear gas is meant to be used as a weapon of last resort. It's a dispersal agent designed to disperse an entire assembly when it gets riotous, but that's not how it's being used now. That's heaney harsh. She's an emergency medicine physician in. California she says these weapons are often used on peaceful protesters on crowds that are already walking away a few years ago. She Co authored a report for Physicians for Human Rights that looked at the health effects of crowd control weapons like tear gas. It is a weapon. It's certainly not what is commonly known as a non lethal weapon, and so the majority of the permanent injuries and severe damage we saw were either from direct blunt trauma from the canisters, so when the canisters were either targeted or hit. People's heads is a neck, delicate structures of their face. Things like that. Or from excessive use so especially to the respiratory system, too much gets in, or if it gets into, say a child or an elderly person or someone with asthma that can cause some pretty permanent injuries as well tear. Gas was first used by militaries today. The chemical irritants are actually banned by the chemical. Weapons Convention for use by the military in war or conflict but for. For police forces the problem now. Is that because there's almost no regulation on tear gas crowd control weapons, police departments want to buy the newest latest most potent most effective thing and manufacturers develop those, and so there's new types and styles and dispersal mechanisms every year. What we see our concerning trends in terms of mixing weapons. Sometimes we see pepper balls, which are essentially like. Rubber bullets or paint balls with pepper spray inside them things like that, and obviously using two of these weapons together is really dangerous and then trying to increase how effective these weapons are as totally unnecessary because they're overused already. RUINI heart is an emergency medicine physician in Oakland California. We're talking about police violence how it impacts our health and what factors contribute to it. Coming up, what are the changes that could reduce police violence? We need a national database on police killings, so we know how many people. Get the flu every year and we actually know how many people get killed by jellyfish, but we don't know how many people are killed by police every year. I think bother everyone that's next on the pulse. Support for the pulse comes from select Greater Philadelphia. WITH OVER THIRTY CELL GENE therapy development companies Greater Philadelphia is where the field started, and continues to thrive more at discovery starts here dot com. This is the pulse I. Mike and Scott were talking about police violence. It's impact on people's health, and what researchers are learning about its causes. Police officers are on alert all the time. The job is dangerous. They often have to make decisions in Split seconds while under a lot of stress, they bring their own biases and prejudices into situations which can affect who they will consider a threat, or how much force they will use in situations like that. Our brains kick into predictive mode, says Karen Quigley, a psychology professor at northeastern university. I'm predicting what I think is likely to happen next and I do that on the basis of what I know for. For my past having been in similar contexts, but the prediction can be wrong Karen says prediction errors happen more frequently when the body is activated or on high alert. Your heart is pumping. Your stomach feels tight, and here's the interesting thing right, which is that we sometimes feel our bodies feel activated for a whole variety of reasons, so if I just had three cups of coffee I'm going to be feeling. A bit activated I might feel that way if I've had too little. Sleep I might feel that way. Way If I'm super hungry. All of those things can feel rather similar to our brains, so the brain only knows that the body is freaking out is different, but the brain does not why you're tired. You're hungry too much coffee, and now at to that a traffic, stop or dangerous situation where the officer has to make a decision in the blink of an eye is the other person, a threat or not. When we're activated, we can sometimes make poor decisions particularly when we haven't ever made those decisions in. In an activated state, before the officer could underestimate a threat or use too much force and harm or even kill US civilian, according to a database that the Washington Post is keeping in the past year, police have shot and killed more than a thousand people. More than three hundred twenty were an armed. African Americans are shot and killed at a disproportionately high rate. All kinds of things could have come into play in any one of these situations, but psychologist drew Anderson says better training based on science could help. Judith is at the University of Toronto. Mississauga, and she's developed training for police officers where they are put into simulated high stress situations, and their physical response is measured with monitors. They have this kind of jump activation in heart rate the way they breathe, and the way they held their body, and how conflictual the event became. You can see. It's like a window into your body. Judas just seeing the reaction. Happen is helpful for officers understanding what's going on in their body during a traffic? Stop or when they've gotten called? This physical reaction can make us more focused more aware, but it can also push us into fight or flight mode where we might make irrational decisions in the training officer is learn how to calm their bodies down and quickly we call this like a single breath reset and when they do this, they can drop their heart rate for a few seconds, and it gives them a brief window in which they can reappraise situation. They're kind of brain comes online, and then they can think about okay. Is My training say in the situation? You can do this breathing sitting down or standing up as long as you're not hunched over because that squeezes your lungs. Lungs to take a really deep breath you, you're holding it for one second top of breath, and it's pursed lips breathing so pushing the air through your lips with pursed lips in that air just gets pushed out tightening in the core, pushing air through down through your body, and you can see it on the Monitor. The Heart Rate Monitor. It just drops the heart rate. It's like a manual override to drop your heart rate, and that lasts for about a second or two. Then you breathe normally, because obviously. If you kept doing that, you would hyperventilate and does it make a noise so if you're when you're breathing out, does it go like? Well, it's it's interesting, because naturally you've probably seen people when they get angry. They puff up their cheeks, and their their bodies actually trying to do that, but they're not being very effective at it because they haven't practiced doing it in a smooth manner, and as you practice, you can get it so that your face doesn't look weird. You don't have to puff up your cheeks. You're just really slowing that out breath. We have people actually think about. Drop your heart rate. You're pushing that heart rate down by Your Breath Judas and her team have evaluated the. The effects of this training in several studies, for example, they found that groups that received the training made less than half of the mistakes and final tests scenarios compared to untrained officers Judith, says police departments in Europe have been very open to this approach. For example. It's taught to every officer in Finland but Canadian and American police departments have been a bit more reluctant. There interestingly been a resistance to addressing one's own internal processes, almost like it was a weakness or or so forth, but how we've tried to educate people about this is like we are human. These are natural human stress responses. You will have them like it or not. You have to learn to modify that. Judith. Anderson is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto Mississauga Joseph Redman. How produce this segment? The death of George Floyd at the hands of Minneapolis. Police officers sparked outrage and protests in every part of the country. But the relationship between the police and the public, especially in communities of color have long been fraught with tension, mistrust and abuse. Many are calling for a total overhaul of how policing is done in this country. I talked about that with Tracy Mir's. She is a law professor. At Yale, law, school and founding director of the Justice CA laboratory. She studies how people think about their relationship with police and other parts of the criminal justice system especially when it comes. Comes to fairness or research shows that when people come to conclusions about the fairness of authorities such as police. They care so much more about how they're treated. By these authorities as opposed to the outcomes that police produce that kind of finding has led to police departments, trying to have better relationships with communities spend more time getting to know people do foot patrol. Here's Philadelphia Officer Bill Robins, describing his approach talking to people talking to really talking store owners. Greek. But Tracy Mir says that's not what she's talking. About. Many people take some of our research and think that you know policing can be carried out as it's always been carried out. And just tinkered along the edges. Right police simply should be more polite to people. And that's not really the basis of our research at all you know the basis of our research frankly is that policing needs to be done fundamentally differently focused on cooperation and engagement with members of the public, rather than trying to figure out how to use force in a better and nicer way to really improve the relationship between the public and the police Tracy says you have to completely reframe what you think of as the role of police. We need to reverse. The current understanding. Of How police actually relate to members of the public snot about how members of the public health police do their jobs. It's really about coming up with a true understanding of having police carry out the goals and projects that members of the public articulate and I think one of the ways we see the clash that we have here is that. Police have an in many cases their own agenda. That doesn't match the public's agenda of public. Safety. Tracy says police could play a much smaller role than they do now. She supports defunding police, departments and investing that money and communities instead for infrastructure schools social supports healthcare. Given all that's happened. What do you think? Are The chances of of. The time being ripe for that or the country swing into a different direction where people say, we need to militarize our police forces further. We need to spend more money on police I. Know It's always hard to predict things. But where do you see this going? Yeah, What I think. Is that six years ago approximately? We were at a moment. After Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson Missouri which people thought was. A watershed moment. It was a time where people were completely fed up. With their relationship with this. Replica this arm of the state that you know claimed to protect. And serve them. And out of that. Came a lot of work that many people doing that work including myself thought was going to be fleeting that there was a rush. To produce some of the recommendations because. we wanted to capture the moment. Today we see police chiefs all across the country who have actively loudly condemned the horrific incident that we all saw in Minneapolis. I think it's fair to say that that wouldn't have happened ten years ago. Yeah, I think it's fair to say that you know that response is a result of some of the work that happened in the last. Sort of Set of upheaval and turmoil around this so when you asked me, what's my prediction of the future if the past? Gives me a basis for predicting the future that past suggests. that. We're going to move forward I don't think it's going to be easy. I don't think it's going to be quick. It's GonNa. Be heart-wrenching, but I think we will move forward. I don't want to say I'm optimistic. I guess. I will just say I. Think we will move forward. That's Tracy Mirror. She is a professor at Yale Law School and founding director of the Justice CA laboratory. Earlier own. We heard from sociologist Ray Sean Ray from the University of Maryland. He studies bias and racism and policing, and he wrote an essay titled Bad. Apples come from rotten trees and policing. He is not in favor of abolishing or drastically defunding police departments, but he points to other things that need to happen for too long. We focused on the bad apples and even early on in my own work. That's what I did. I focused on How much will body worn cameras matter to improve policing? How much will implicit bias trains improve policing and what I found? Is that these solutions while valuable and important? They only focus on bad apples. They only focus on individual actors. They don't focus on the system. They don't focus on the structure on the organizational culture of policing. That's the tree. And so I think there are few things that need to be done. I, think the first is. We need a national database on police killings. We only have data on police killings and sixteen state, so we know how many people. Get the flu every year, maybe not Kobe nineteen in the coronavirus yet, but we know how many people get the flu, and we actually know how many people get killed by jellyfish, but we don't know how many people are killed by police every year I, think bother everyone. I think the second thing is. We need to ensure that officers who were fired for police misconduct can never work in law enforcement again. if that was the case Shaaban. Who had nearly twenty police misconduct allegations? In Minneapolis he should have never been on the street. He would have never had his knee on George Floyd next, and we might not be saying protests industry. That's Ray Sean Ray an associate professor of sociology at the University of Maryland College Park. That's our show for this week. The pulse is a production of whyy in Philadelphia. You can find as wherever you get your podcast. Our Health and science reporters are Alan. You list hung and jets Lehman Charlie. Kyler is our engineer this week. We had engineering help from Alabama six exterior Lopez is our associate producer Lindsay Lazar. Ski Is our producer I'm Mike and Scott thank. You for listening. Behavioral Health reporting on the pulse supported by the Thomas scattered good. Behavioral Health Foundation an organization that is committed to thinking doing and supporting innovative approaches in Integrated Healthcare whyy's and science reporting is supported by generous grant from the Public Health Management Corporations Public Health Fund P. H. M. C. Gladly supports whyy and its commitment to the production of services that improve our quality of life.

Officer officer Hong Kong Police professor Alan You Philadelphia George Floyd Owen Mike Two Hong Kong US State Police West Yorkshire Police UK Philadelphia Minneapolis Clifford Stott researcher
Long Read Podcast: Enigmatic neutron stars may soon give up their secrets

Nature Podcast

15:35 min | 9 months ago

Long Read Podcast: Enigmatic neutron stars may soon give up their secrets

"Welcome to this audio long read from nature. Ms Episode. The Golden Age of Neutron Star Physics has arrived. Written by, Ataman can read by Kerry Smith. When a massive STAR DIES and Supernova! The explosion is only the beginning of the end. Most of the stellar monitor is thrown far and wide, but the stars I unfilled. Hawk remains behind. This core taxes much mass as two sons, and quickly shrinks to his fear. That would span the length of Manhattan. Crushing internal pressure enough to squeeze Mount Everest to the signs of a sugar cube fuses subatomic protons and electrons into neutrons. Astronomers know that much about how neutron stars are born. Yes exactly what happens afterwards inside these ultra dense cores remains a mystery. Some researchers theorized that neutrons might dominate all the way down to the center. Others hypothesized that the incredible pressure compared the material into more exotic particles or states that squish and deform in unusual ways. Now after decades of speculation, researchers are getting closer to solving the enigma in part. Thanks to an instrument on the International Space Station called the Neutron Star Interior composition, explorer or nicer for short. Last December. This NASA Space Observatory provided astronomers with some of the most precise measurements ever made of a neutron, stars, mass and radius of as unexpected findings about its magnetic field. The Nice a-team plans to release results about more stars in. The, next few months. Other, the data coming in from gravitational wave observatories, which can watch neutron stars contorted. They crashed together. With these combined observations, research is poised to zero in on what fills the minutes of a neutron star. For many in the field, these results mark turning point in the study of some of the universe is most bewildering objects. This is beginning to be a golden age of neutrons star physics says Yagan Sheriff Nobili a theoretical physicist at Gertie, university in Frankfurt Germany. Launched in twenty, seventeen aboard a SPACEX FALCON nine rocket, the nicer telescope sits outside the space station and collects x-rays, coming from Paul, saw spinning neutron stars that radiate charged particles and energy and enormous columns that sweep around like beams from a lighthouse. The X rays originate from million degree. Hotspots pulsa surface where a powerful magnetic field rips charged particles off the exterior and slams them back down at the opposing magnetic pole. Nice detects these x-rays using fifty six gold, coated telescopes and timestamps their arrival to within one hundred ninety seconds. With this capability, researchers can precisely track hotspots as a neutron star whips around at up to a thousand times per second. Hot spots are visible as swing across the object, but neutron stars warped space time so strongly that nicer detects from hotspots facing away from Earth. Einstein's general theory of relativity provides a way to calculate a stars master radius ratio through the amounts of light bending that and other observations allow astrophysicists to pin down the masses and Radii of the deceased stars. Those two properties could help in determining. What's happening down in the calls? Neutron Stars get more complicated the deeper one goes. Beneath a thin atmosphere made mostly of hydrogen and helium, the stellar remnants thought to boast an out across just a centimeter or two thick that contains atomic nuclei and free roaming electrons. Research as thing that the ionized elements become packed together in the next layer, creating a lattice in the inner crust. Even further down. The pressure is so intense that almost all the protons combined with electrons to turn into neutrons, but what occurs beyond that is murky at best. It's one thing to know the ingredients says Jocelyn read an astrophysicist at California State University Fullerton, it's another to understand the recipe and how those ingredients are going to interact with each other. Physicists have some idea of what happens. Thanks to particle accelerators on Earth At, facilities such as Brookhaven National Laboratory in Upton New York and serves large Hadron collider near Geneva Switzerland. Researchers have smashed together heavy ions such as those of lead and gold to create brief collections of monumentally dense material. But these Connecticut experiments generate billion or even trillion degree flushes in which protons and neutrons dissolve into a soup of their constituent, quarks and glue ones. Terrestrial instruments have a hard time probing the relatively mild millions of degree conditions inside neutron stars. Never multiple ideas about what might occur, it could be the quarks glue owns roam freely, or the extreme energies could lead to the creation of particles called hyper runs like neutrons, these particles contain three quarks, but whereas neutrons contain the most basic and lowest energy quarks known as up and down quarks, a hyper on has at least one of those replaced with an exotic strange quark. Another possibility is that the center of a neutron star is a Bose Einstein condensate. Of Matter, in which all subatomic particles act as a single quantum mechanical entity. And theorists of dreamt up even more outlandish prospects to. Crucially each. Would push back in a characteristic way against neutron stars colossal gravity. They would generate different in total precious, and therefore a larger or more radius for given mass. A neutral style with the bose-einstein Condensate Center for instance is likely to have a smaller radius than one made from ordinary material such as neutrons. One with a core made of pliable hyper on matter could have a smaller radius still. The types of particles and forces between them affect how software or squashy the material is says Anna wants a nice a team member at the University of Amsterdam. Differentiating between the models will require precise measurements of the size and mass of neutron stars, but researches haven't yet been able to push that techniques to find enough levels to say which possibility is most likely. They typically estimate masses by observing neutron stars in Binary Peres. As the object's orbit one another they tug gravitationally. And dramas can use this to determine their masses. Roughly thirty five stars had their masses measured in this way, although the figures can contain Arabize of up to one solar mass. Amir dozen also have also had their RADII calculated, but in many cases the techniques can't determine this value to better than a few kilometers as much as one fifth of the size of a neutron star. Is Hotspot method has been used by the European Space Agency's Xm M Newton Observatory, which launched in one ninety nine, and is still in operation. Nicer is four times more sensitive and has hundreds of times better time resolution than the XM Newton. Over the next two to three years, the team expects to be able to use nicer to work out the masses and Radii of another half a dozen targets pinning down their radii within half a kilometer. With this precision, the group will be well placed to begin plotting out what's known as the neutron star equation of state which relates mass to radius or equivalently internal pressure to density. If scientists, particularly lucky and nature happens to serve up. especially good data nicer might help eliminate certain versions of this equation. But most physicists think that on its own the observatory will probably narrow down rather than completely rule out models of what happens in the mysterious objects 'cause. This would still be a huge advance on where we are now says what's. Nice as I hug, it was an isolated pulsar that spins roughly two hundred times per second, and is three, hundred, thirty, seven, six, or one, thousand, one hundred light years from Earth in the Constellation Pisces its full name is Jay. W three Oh plus Oh four five one. Two groups one based primarily at the University of Amsterdam and another led by researchers at the University of Maryland College. Park separately sifted through eight hundred fifty hours of observations serving checks on one another. Because the hot spot, light curves are so complex. The groups needed supercomputers to model various configurations and workout. Which one's best fit the data. But both came up with similar results finding that J. W. Three Oh mass that is one point, three or one point four times that of the sun and a radius of roughly thirteen kilometers. Those results are not definitive. They could be used to support either the mundane or the other worldly predictions for what's inside the guts of neutron stars. There's no requirement for anything funky. Oh, crazy, or exotic yet, said Andrew Steiner, a nuclear astrophysicist at the University of Tennessee Knoxville. Research has got a biggest surprise with findings about the shape and position of the hot spots. The canonical view of neutron stars has their magnetic field lines, looking like those surrounding bomb magnet with North and south sides emerging from circular spots at opposing ends by contrast, the Dutch supercomputer simulations implied that both of j below three Os spots are in its Southern Hemisphere. One of them is long and crescent shaped. The Maryland team also came up with the possibility of three hotspot solution to southerly oval, shaped ones and a final circle near the rotational South Pole. It looks like they might have made the first real detection of pulsa, where the beams are not one hundred eighty degrees separated, says Natalie, Webb an astrophysicist at the Institute for Research in Astro Physics and planetology in lose France who has models such possibilities. That's fantastic, if true. The results would bolster previous observations and theories, suggesting that neutron stars magnetic fields which are one trillion times stronger than the sons can be more complex than generally assumed. After they first form pulsars thought to slow their rotation of millions of years. But if they have a companion orbiting around them, they might steal material and angular momentum from this partner boosting spinning to super fast speeds. As the master gets deposited on the stars exterior. Some theorists suggest it could affect a fluid like layer of subsurface neutrons, generating gigantic vortices that twist the neutron stars magnetic field into odd arrangements. The companion might ultimately be consumed or lose so much mass that it becomes gravitationally unbound and flies away as could have been the case with the now solitary Jada blow three Oh. Nicer is doing to observe J. W. Three Oh to further improve the precision of its radius measurements. At the same time, the team is beginning to analyze data from a second target, a slightly heavier pulsar with a white dwarf companion. Other astronomers have used observations of this Pez orbital dance to determine the pulsar's mass, which means nicer researchers have an independent measurement that they can use to validate their findings. Among nicest targets, the team plans to include at least a couple of high mass pulsars, including the current record holder for most massive neutron star a behemoth with a mass two point one four times that of the Sun. That should allow researchers to probe an upper limit. The point at which a neutron star collapses into a black hole. Even, the two-point one four solar mass object is challenging for theorists to explain. Several researchers have also suggested that nicer might be able to find two neutron stars with the same mass, but different RADII. That would suggest the presence of a transition point at which slight differences create two distinct 'cause. One might contain mostly neutrons for example, and the other might be composed of more exotic material. Low Nicer is at the vanguard. It's not the only instrument plumbing pulsars depths. In twenty. The US laser into -firmative, gravitational wave observatory lie go along with the Virgo detector in Italy picked up the signal from two neutron stars, crushing and merging together. As the object rotated around one another before the crash, they emitted gravitational waves that contained information about the stars, size and structure. Each stars colossal gravitational influence tugged on and deformed. It's partner contorted both from spheres into teardrop shapes. The amount of distortion in those final moments gives physicists clues about the malleability of the material inside the neutron stars. Lagos facility in Livingston. Louisiana picked up a second neutron star smashed up. Last April and more events could be spotted at any time. So far the two mergers only hinted at the properties of Neutron Star Interiors suggesting that they're not particularly deform. -able. But the current generation of facilities contemplative, the crucial final moments when the whooping would be greatest, and would display internal conditions most clearly. The KAMIOKA gravitational wave detector in Japan is expected to come online later this year and the Indian initiative in gravitational wave observations in Mareth Wada in twenty, twenty four. In combination with Ligo and Virgo, they will improve sensitivity potentially even capturing the details of moments leading up to a crash. Looking further into the future, several planned instruments could make observations that elude nicer and current gravitational wave observatories. Chinese European satellite called the enhanced x ray timing in polar imagery mission or e X T P is expected to launch in twenty, twenty seven and study both isolated and binary neutron stars to help determine their equation of state. Researchers have also proposed a space-based mission. The could fly in the twenty thirty s the spectroscopy time resolving observatory for broadband, energy x rays or strobe backs, it would use nice as hotspot technique, pinning down the masses and Radii of at least twenty more neutron stars with even more precision. The hearts of neutron stars will probably always retain some secrets. But physicist now seem well-placed to begin peeling back the layers. Read, who is a member of the LEGO team? Says she has collaborated on a project to imagine what scientific questions gravitational wave detectors would be able to tackle in the twenties, thirties and forties. In the process she realized that the landscape for Neutron Star Research in particular, the question of the equation of state should look very different by then. It's been this long standing puzzle that you figure will always be there, she says. Now whereas a point where I can see the scientific community figuring out this neutrons star structure. Within this decade. Three more of nature's long form journalism head over to nature dot com slash news.

Neutron Star Physics Neutron Star Interior Neutron Star Research physicist Neutron Star Interiors University of Amsterdam partner J. W. Mount Everest NASA Space Observatory Hawk Manhattan SPACEX gravitational wave observatory Ataman Kerry Smith European Space Agency International Space Station California State University Fu Japan