19 Episode results for "University Of Bristol"

Cricket Avoids Being Bat Food By Doing Nothing

60-Second Science

03:29 min | 6 months ago

Cricket Avoids Being Bat Food By Doing Nothing

"This is scientific, American sixty seconds science I'm emily swing. What you're listening to now. Recording from the rain. That's mark holder. Eat the University of Bristol in the UK. Specializes in bioacoustics how animals produce sound and communicate with the sounds they make in the recording. You just listen to holderied. Remove this sounds we. Humans can hear and reduced the frequencies of the sounds. We normally wouldn't here so that their audible to our ears. Rainforest is a very wise environment. insect sounds bird sounds, says lease wrestling, and all of this makes it harder for you to detect something you won't hear. holderied is particularly interested in sounds from the ultra sonic range. These are frequencies. Our ears can't attacked, but they come in loud and clear for a sword tailed cricket in Panama. Here's their habitat slowed down. You can hear it. And callings at the University of Bristol and grottes in Austria recently discovered the sworn town. Cricket has a novel Survival Strategy when it comes to their life in this noisy environment up there. It's mainly other insects that produce noises that stop you from detecting what you really want to detect, and that is accredited. Attack you every night. Hundreds of species of hungry bats fly around the rainforest in use echo location to hunt for their meals. which can include the cricket so? Talking. Neo Tropical rainforests and they team with different bat species, and most of them. Many of them would be after insects, so the frequencies that used to find the insect price covering pretty much a full echo-location frequency range echo location is great for hunting, but holderied says it's also a potential weakness for bats, because in the ultrasonic world, these calls are very very loud once. Once. You have cracked that when you can't leave often ear that lets you hear these coals. You can simply fly away and escape into safety which the cricket has learned to do. Basically they ever response threshold will be corporate, so they only respond to sounds that are very loud. And how do they respond? Won't they simply stopped flying and plummet toward the ground sometimes? They don't even drop all the way to the ground. So if the Coles are allowed, they stopped flying for a longer period of time. That means a longer drop, but if they stopped for just a second. That might not be enough time for them to hit the ground so enough that this offer second date start flying again, so they never actually crush them, but they drop out of the best approach vector. The study of the crickets novel Survival Strategy is in the journal philosophical transactions of the Royal, society, beautiful example of this credits crayons thrice in this case, the passive pray has found a way to live and listen for another day. Thanks for listening for scientific, American sixty seconds science I'm emily, swing.

Cricket University of Bristol holderied Coles UK Panama Austria sixty seconds
How Micro Are Microclimates?

BrainStuff

08:54 min | 5 months ago

How Micro Are Microclimates?

"Today's episode is brought to you by vantage. If you need business communications, US bondage, they've got unified communications, contact centers, and Communication Api's little figuratively blow your mind and literally make your mind explode from sheer joy. But that's it. They're great at all those. They're not so great at explaining why we get morning breath what fracking is and making awesome short snippets of smart that satisfy the Internet and all of us for that kind of stuff the person reading this is way better. So to recap, von Edge for amazing business communications, brain stuff podcast for daily servings of smart vantage now we're talking. To brain stuff production of iheartradio. Hey Brain Steph Lauren volume here. If whether is your mood. Then climate is your personality. That's an analogy scientists use to help explain the difference between these two words that people sometimes get mixed up. In other words whether exists in the short term, it's the state of the atmosphere in a specific area during a limited period of time think minutes, hours, days or weeks. Climate meanwhile describes long-term average trends in weather. And if you're interested in the latter, you'd better know geography our global climate is made up of many smaller regional climates, a break those down, and you'll find local variations at just about every conceivable scale. And that brings us to micro climates an amazing subject with broad applications for Farming Conservation Wildlife, management and city planning. Climates. Are a bit like woven tapestries. The big picture is important no question. But so are all the seemingly minor details found inside the larger hole. We spoke by email with Tomasa, euchre and environmental scientist at the University of Bristol he said he would define the term micro-climate as quote, the suite of climactic conditions, temperature rainfall, humidity solar radiation measured in localized areas, typically near the ground and at spatial scales that are directly relevant to ecological processes. We'll talk about that last bit in a minute. But first, there's another criteria to discuss according to some researchers. A micro-climate by definition must differ from the larger area that surrounds it. Forests provide us with some great examples. We've also spoke by the University of Montana Ecologist Solomon. Dubrovsky. He said the climate near the ground tropical rainforest is dramatically different from the climate in the canopy fifty meters or about one hundred, sixty feet above. This vertical gradient among other factors allows for the staggering bio-diversity we see in the tropics. Likewise, scientists observed that a twenty fifteen partial solar eclipse caused the air temperature of an eastern European meadow to change more dramatically than it did in a nearby forest. That's because trees provide not only shade but their leaves also reflect solar radiation at the same time forests tend to reduce wind speeds. And all of those factors add up a twenty nineteen review of ninety eight wooded places spread out across five continents found the forests are about four degrees, Celsius cooler on average than the areas outside of them. That's around seven degrees cooler in Fahrenheit. Now. If you hate the cold, don't worry. There's a cozy exception to the rule according to that same study. Forests are usually one degree Celsius or about one point eight degrees Fahrenheit warmer than the external environment during wintertime, which is pretty cool. So when does micro-climate stop being? Micro in other words, is there a maximum size we should be aware of when discussing them? It depends on who you ask Euchre said in terms of horizontal scale, some have defined micro-climate as anything that's less than a hundred meters are about three hundred feet in range. I'm personally less prescriptive about this. Instead. He says the scales we consider micro at should be determined by the questions were trying to answer quote if I want to know how temperature affects the photosynthesis of a leaf I should be measuring temperature at centimeter scale. If I want to know if in how temperature affects the habitat preference of a large mobile mammal, it's probably more relevant to capture temperature variation across tens to hundreds of meters. But. Yes. Solitary plants have the power to generate any bitty micro-climates. Just ask Peter Blinken a geography professor at the University of Colorado Boulder and be co author of two, Thousand Sixteen book called micro-climate and low climate. He said by email a single stalk of corn can create its own micro-climate through the shading and changes in soil properties in the immediate vicinity of the stock for field of corn, the micro-climate created would be much larger extending over the entire field. Many organisms eke out a living. In some of the dinkiest micro climates you can imagine a take foods, spider Mites, end leaf, miner insects. All those critters are dwarfed by the plant leaves they feed on and every leaf comes with its own micro-climate. Observations show that seek out cooler leaves while those other invertebrates prefer warmer ones of because none of these animals can generate their own body heat leaf micro-climates have a critical effect on their wellbeing. It's no secret that our planet is going through some rough times at the macro level. The global temperatures climbing nine out of ten hottest years on record have occurred since two thousand five. And by one reason estimate roughly one million species around the world are facing extinction due to human activities. EUCHRE said on one of the big questions that apologist and environmental scientists are trying to answer right now is how will individual species and whole ecosystems respond to rapid climate change and habitat loss? To me micro-climates are key component of this research if we don't measure and understand climate at the appropriate scale, then predicting how things will change in the future becomes a lot harder. Developers have long understood the impact that small-scale climates have on our daily lives urban heat island is a term for cities that have higher temperatures than neighboring rural areas. Scheme plants, release vapors that can moderate local climates but in cities, natural greenery is often scarce to make matters worse plenty of our roads and buildings are made of materials that or or recommit heat from the sun and vehicle emissions don't exactly help the situation. Still it's not like Boston or Beijing are through monoliths sometimes the documented temperatures within a single city by fifteen to twenty degrees. Fahrenheit. That's eight to eleven degrees, Celsius. That's where metro parks and city trees come in. They have good cooling effects on nearby neighborhoods. Blinken said several cities around the world have developed programs to increase urban green spaces, tree-planting programs, and green roof programs have been shown to lower surface temperatures, fi Chris air pollution, and decrease surface water runoff, or urban flash flooding in urban areas. Today's episode was written by Marc Manzini and produced Tyler claim for more on this and lots of other cool topics visit how stuff works dot com. Rain stuff is a production of iheartradio or more podcasts my radio visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Today's episode is brought to you by Mazda back in the before times before covid Nineteen Mazda invited a few of us. IHEART, podcasters out to drive there do see X. Thirty from Palm Springs to San Diego, and that trip encapsulates what I miss about traveling and being on an unfamiliar road feeling the grip of the curves enjoying the world is you only can from a car with the windows down in the music up their whole lineup of. 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Mazda Peter Blinken scientist US University of Montana Steph Lauren Communication Api Euchre University of Bristol Farming Conservation Wildlife Palm Springs San Diego apple Marc Manzini Boston
Tickle Me Cell Phone - DTNS 3641

Daily Tech News Show

29:01 min | 1 year ago

Tickle Me Cell Phone - DTNS 3641

"WCHS lab grown diamonds are essentially chemically the same as natural ones just made in a lab to make them they use a plasma reactor to heat tiny pieces of lab grown diamonds ever heard of lab grown diamonds if not we've got you after thousands of hours mastering the science light box is here to shed some light here's how it works but it seems like it does make some kind of difference you know I'm all about dark mode on Os Ten haven't tried it on IOS yet a pattern or a password the next time the phone is unlocked Microsoft is acquiring cloud file migration provider mover for an undisclosed amount skin for your phone this is daily Tech News for Monday October twenty first two thousand nineteen you twitter and maps identically on both phones did it they set up the test for two hours at two hundred nits of brightness the phone using dark mode gems now here's where it gets really interesting light box lab grown diamonds aren't just made the same every time they're also priced the same each carrot is eight hundred dollars mind blown so there you have it get the facts and see the science behind the sparkle at light box jewelry dot com slash DT N. H. Use Code of tools for cloud migration include fast track and the share point migration tool so they've got some already there but mover supports migration from cloud services providers like box still had thirty percent of its battery life when the phone running light mode died before the two hours was up more tests would be needed to confirm the real level of difference and eliminate alternate causes users the option to require is to be unopened to unlock the Pixel for with your face in the meantime if Pixel for users are concerned about somebody unlocking phonebooth indicates you might get more battery life out of your iphone with an led screen if you turn on dark mode let's turn pixels off on like LCD screens Oh d. n. h. for twenty five dollars off coming up on what Germany thinks is the most secure browser do you need to worry about your VPN provider getting hat and artificial so there's a bigger difference their phone compared to iphone ten s maxes running ios thirteen they had an automation to do activities like watch dot Com Slash D. T. and S. gets you that and more let's start with a few tech things you should know a while way executive dropbox ignites and Google drive as long as mover doesn't stop letting me go Fraum dropbox the box etcetera that's a test from youtube that telcos had expressed interest and but the long term deal or a one-off transfer Google says that in the coming months it will issue a software update for the Pixel four phones that will give it's Microsoft executives said that the goal is to help customers migrate to Microsoft three six five plus windows office three sixty five and in tune bundles other medicine is Angeles I'm Tom Merritt and from Studio Feline on Sarah Lane and I'm the show's producer Roger Chain we were just having a very productive discussion of the metrics him and its uses on our good day Internet show if you'd like to get that and more in our expanded show I want to become a Patriot patriotic their phone by pointing at them while they're asleep or unconscious they can long press the power button and choose the lockdown option that would require a pin or Reuters on Friday that the company is in early stage talks with US telecoms about licensing while was five g technology the company's Senior Vice President Vincent Pangs ignored VPN's troubles let's do it Nord VPN says that one of its VPN services at servers rather etta data center it was renting in Finland was accessed without authorization the attacker exploited an insecure remote management system that Nord VPN says it was unaware of left on the server by the data center operates angle connection that tried to access through that server the attacker would have not would not have been able to access VPN traffic on any other server however her newark VPN says no user logs or credentials were available on the server the attacker could have performed man in the middle attack though to intercept an attacker could have gotten if they knew a lot if they knew that their target was using Nord VPN and connecting through thin techcrunch has seen similar records indicating other providers including a tour guard and Viking VPN may have been breached around the same time toward guard told Tech crunch a single server was compromised in two thousand seventeen but no vpn traffic was accessed at that time and toward did reveal that back in May so I've noticed that I always thirteen wasn't as bad my battery life as usual IOS updates are and my older phone so yeah maybe maybe and turned under so maybe that's why all right let's talk a little more about it that was a previous revelation but but to the Nord VPN situation it's not great there are things that that a of using a VPN but it does highlight the fact that when you are using a vpn you're not default secure you are trust as well I I do believe VPN when they say it wasn't us it was a remote management software we're unaware was on there just point out the importance of working with your hosting pre it's not like VPN is a is a magic bullet that protects you all the time especially when you like Google and free VPN server when you're on vacation in your security to the provider of your VPN so it's it's good that Nord VPN found this it's good that it's been fixed but but yeah and hit that server then they could have intercepted some traffic they could have just done kind of just random sampling to see what they could find there to that that's possible fighter to make sure that there's nothing unexpected running on a server you rent and no kidding this is this is something I don't think should put in question the idea shoulders yeah twitches testing something called watch parties here we go again it would allow streamers on twitch to screen Amazon prime video down to that or do with caution Roger you're pointing out that the actually the most secure VPN or is probably to run it yourself. Although oh content some Amazon prime video content to viewers of twitch provided that the viewer also has an Amazon prime subscription The feature is currently testing the you would not necessarily be more secure you just have only yourself to blame yeah I mean I run open VPN server off my router and I only use it select streamers invited by twitch we've seen so many versions of this over the past decade where Youtube Xbox Blu ray the content I suppose but I I think twitches they will be successful as this at this then probably concept is really that different but but but I have always liked the concept the concept of okay we're in a a world where it's when I'm travelling like Sarah so I've never had any issues with it and it works pretty well but if you have any security lapses I mean it's really just facebook watch has a system that does this video yeah but you know it's sort of like okay well if if a twitch user content creator off the ground I can't even remember the one that was the idea of like checking into a show when when you would be watching it back in the day make it work although I think Roger's point of the idea of having commentary from one of your favorite creators beasts somehow part of this has enough folks that are interested in watching something you know they promoted ahead of time and then it's sort of fun thing where you all sort of sit back and not hey thing just saying oh I'm going to watch a movie or TV show with this person that I enjoy watching on twitch is more compelling unlike watching somebody play a video game I guess and then you've got your chat going and it's you know it's kind of lively that sounds fun to me I mean obviously you have to Marie by all getting together and watching something in unison and chatting about it there have been many apps and services I mean twitter had its own version of this that never really got see but then adds the commentary the unique take on it and adds a lot more because you're you don't need to have people like I've never seen this before it's all brand new to meet you pick one can do what they do it may look easy but it took a lot of work to make that come off so I think it's smart for twitch to target this streamers though because even if it's not an MSG all said we're going to let you watch movies with your friends over the Internet at the same time and none of them have caught on. Sarah do you think this could be any different well I don't think that that any other platform I can think of right now yes oh no I was about to say like you know it's very interesting that on the on the polygon there's already a diamond club watch along that happens sort of ad hoc where they all just have to press play at the same time and watch along with each other people will do that quite well I think that if with Amazon's library thinking do we give this movie a second life by offering this kind of everything's on demand and no one's watching things at the same time I mean most things at this point something's are still alive but but the idea that you can kinda like get some comrades this makes that easier so so having it be community oriented and personality lead I think is if this is going to catch on the thing that would As emojis such as surprise laughter or anger the scientists are ready to work with developers and want to research adding things like hair and temperature human skin on phones yes yes I mean you have to say us except we're GonNa do it. Scientists at the University of Bristol and Sorbonne University have developed a skin like inputs interface for us with phones and also computer so a multi layer silicone membrane has a textured surface electrode layer when you watch the demo video of this action it's very skin silly putty looking at you know and and somewhat off a sort or have more delicate touch interactions we already have forced touch long press things like that if you could have a wider vocabulary of touch interaction yeah and this is where I think this will be the most benefit is if you can do something started like a mystery science thirty thousand where someone is watching a movie that people it would not everybody's going to be able to do this with success like you said Tom you can't just like be like Oh we're you know we're going to provide commentary and it's going to be great but some estevan adult oriented uses this I think that if you get the creepy factor like let's just say like right now just a disclaimer right now we already know what a lot of you are thinking this is going to be used for and we'll just leave that to your imaginations that's that's you know that's that's on you pick cult movies you pick movies that are it'd be seen it it could be a veritable goldmine of content as the people done MSG three k. we'll tell you though not incase computer touch pad also smartwatch for demonstrations for instance with the phone touches and grip strength were interpreted as different emotions expressed yeah I would like skin on my phone in those cases just recent another layer on top of it is really smart and so many people are more likely to have Amazon prime video because they already pay for free shipping or they want to pay for twitch processes got into the stores and were demonstrations of the ability to listen in on people without them knowing it and fish here to be detecting things but share researchers at Germany's security research labs developed four Amazon echo skills and four google home skills that passed through both companies and also a hypodermic it can differentiate actions like tickling caressing or twisting even pinching the scientists created command would no longer stopped the APP but was programmed to say goodbye but keep those invisible characters running and something that is smart enough to discern between these things based on your mood as a human is really cool yeah imagine video game interactions or even things like video editing or cad design where you just want to have a more precise interaction really I just want too lightly modified this is the first part of the problem which was they were vetted through the APP review process but they weren't vetted after modifications the modifications added things like the stocks the APPs were not silent they were speaking an unpronounceable character particularly the U Plus Diego Dot Space Character which is the question mark in a box how this is going to catch on if it doesn't look like skin for vets for most cases it's like Oh we have this new interface that that you can like grip your phone to provide inter further voice commands were met with more silence so some of the APPS would just record what they heard during the silence and then send a transcript to the developer those were for eavesdropping others. Then you're kind of like ooh I would anybody want this but just the idea of the the the next evolution of haptic feedback beans the Epstein gave the respect to expected response and went silent so you as a user would not necessarily think anything was amiss if you're not paying close attention but the research purposes they alerted the company's about this and both companies say they have taken steps to prevent apps from exploiting these measures in the future yeah well I think again this is it sort of goes back to a conversation we were having on the show last week it's like this is one of those things sleazy sometimes when stuff is unincorporated that kept running without making noise now after these APPs were reviewed they were black non hairy interface I think I could get accepted quite easily for sure but it sounds like everything that at least could be done with this particular method of spying on people on gaining their passwords users would trigger the apparently innocent by saying something like ask my lucky horoscope to give me the horoscope for Taurus that was one of the versions of the APP so horoscope APP I would ever want to do that but the once you have it you're like over remember when we just had to like press a button and that was the only option that we had maybe like four such like made it a little bit cooler because there on twitch so so I think it it has fewer of those roadblocks like yeah but I don't have that service and I don't want to sign up for it yeah I wanNA talk about somebody security researcher labs took down all the APPS and privately reported the results to Google and Amazon Google Amazon some cases say they took down the apps but the answer not there anymore it's not just for a phone but for a computer as well I think that could be put to a lot of interesting uses yeah and I think a lot of people like well why would ever WanNa tickle a smart device I found thing stopped the thing from happening before it could be exploited things that might set my hair a little on fire is my Gosh Amazon and Google why aren't you vetting updates and yeah I mean the one I I read the story this morning I was like Oh here we go hi knew it it was just a matter of time smart speakers you know fishing me but rather in the future but this is you know well altogether a good thing things I am pleased about or is Barbara shots might say a fire overall mostly a good story it's it's interesting how not I mean people get confused all the time but we are becoming more and more savvy to and then yes further things that say these characters that don't make any sound should be blanket kept out of the ability Sir are that that this was caught by researchers it was privately disclosed and fixed This is mostly good news like researcher please could you clearly state that you're now vetting updates which they haven't done in any of the things that I read because that's a that's a huge an obvious way to catch these sorts of things very you can do a little bit of due diligence and and hopefully make the right choice but like the skills Amazon there is very well Westie and it Kinda just highlights how much consumers when you have something new you're like Oh cool these are cool followed a period of silence with a fake error message or an alert for a fake device update both of which asks the user for their password

Amazon Sarah Youtube facebook twitter content creator University of Bristol Roger Marie Sorbonne University two hours eight hundred dollars twenty five dollars thirty percent three k five g
What tiny creature can travel hundreds of miles using electricity?

Trivia Buff Radio

04:22 min | 1 year ago

What tiny creature can travel hundreds of miles using electricity?

"And I'm in the studio getting ready to fix a faulty electrical circuit on some of our broadcast equipment the old trivial true fanatics Jeb Bressler Trivia buff here on iheartradio incapable of ninety seven point nine to be eligible for our weekly Trivia buff t shirt giveaway and also don't forget will weave the web considered scary creature uses electricity to fly we go to our friends at inverse for the answer I have to today shopping question what tiny creature can fly hundreds of miles using electricity small and sometimes considered scary creature can fly using electricity we'll try not to zap you alls dot com eighty seven forty nine and then Kyle Texas streamlined flashlights pass from generation to generation of heroes and with innovations like light beams for every kind of task those even more reasons that this generation of heroes it's cutting into your exercise time it stabbing you in the back nine and it's attacking your peace of mind it's pain and it's getting in between you her release long strands of silk to carry them up to two point it was scary enough well it's time to turn the power off but before we go if you love Radio TV and movie bloopers and but since it doesn't explain how sliders balloon even on days with light wind another theory emerged electrostatic Repulsion University of Bristol. Study it's cutting into your exercise time it stabbing you in the back nine and it's attacking your peace of mind it's pain and golf balls golf balls dot com the world's largest inventory of used golf balls all the top brands in stock fifty percent off retail loss golf with the answer in just a moment everyone lives golf balls even the pros doc miles up in the air and over thousand miles out to sea a process known as ballooning the common belief is that the straps catch onto the wind and help generate lift russ dream light back in the studio with today's supercharged question what small and sometimes inge worthy moments join me on my companion podcast booze looper bonanza and don't forget to go to trial. Rivi above podcast dot com life you want to live CD medic target your pain added source it's fast acting relief with active OTC ingredients plus the added benefits of THC free hemp oil go back to your life with CBD medic available online and that CBS these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA this product is not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease the charge and prompted them to start moving we were able to take off despite knowing the dropped on the electric field was turned off and just when we thought spy getting in between you and the life you want to live CD medic targets your pain at its source it's fast acting relief with active ingredients plus the added benefits of tea with another great question next time right here on the troll repeal started the theory if I put him the Iraqi on vertical cardboard strips and the plastic locks and then generated an artificial electric field sensory hairs on the spiders feet see free soil get back to your life with CD medic available online and at Cvs these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA this product is not intended to diagnose treat cure always gets a little nervous working rand electric city which you know there's a small creature that uses electricity to it's big.

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Twitter: hackers got a few accounts DMs. French policy toward Huawei hardens. Crooks against British sport. You and your boss should talk more.

The CyberWire

21:39 min | 6 months ago

Twitter: hackers got a few accounts DMs. French policy toward Huawei hardens. Crooks against British sport. You and your boss should talk more.

"Hey everybody it's Dave and I've got another exciting announcement for you. We've asked to select group of experienced cyber security experts to join us and share their unique experiences and perspectives on various topics and concepts in the industry. We're calling this group. The Cyber Wire Hash table and you'll hear from these amazing minds on shows like. CIS Oh, perspectives and the cyber wire daily podcast along with our. Chief analyst and senior fellow Rick Howard learn more about the hash table. Members at the cyber wire dot com slash hash table. That's the cyber wire dot com slash hash table, thanks. Twitter updates the news of last week's incident. Young Young Cyber toolkit keeps pace with changing circumstances. Beijing said to be behind recent cyber campaigns against and Hong Kong Francis Partial permission for way to operate in that country now looks like a band with a twenty twenty eight deadline, a quiet crypto minor the threat to British Sport Aweiss Rashid from the University of Bristol on Cybersecurity and remote working John Ford from Ir Net cybersecurity with. Twenty twenty predictions and cyber priorities, and when it comes to cyber, bosses and employees see things differently. Now a word from our sponsor extra securing modern business with cloud, native network, detection and Response, the massive shift to remote work has turned the reality of work on its head with cloud and multi cloud adoption. Comprehensive visibility is more important than ever, but in order to protect your business, you need more than unified visibility you need intelligence response workflows, so teams can collaborate easily and act quickly. Extra hop helps organizations like wizards of the coast detect threats up to ninety five percent faster as John. Senior it engineer put it quote. Extra hop is helping US accelerate cloud adoption by ensuring our workloads our secure. See how it works in the full production demo free and no forms required at extra hopped dot com slash cyber. That's extra hop dot com slash cyber, and we thank extra for sponsoring our show. Funding for this cyber wire podcast is made possible in part by last pass last passes in award-winning security solution that helps millions of individuals in over seventy thousand organizations navigate their online lives easily and securely businesses can maximize productivity while still maintaining effortless strong security with last pass last pass can minimize risk and give your it team up. Breakthrough integrated single sign on Password, management and multi factor authentication solution. From the cyber wire studios at data tribe I'm Dave Bittner with your cyber wires summary for Thursday July twenty third two thousand twenty. Twitter has updated its account of last week's account. Hijacking incident quote. We believe that for up to thirty six of the one hundred thirty targeted accounts, the attackers access the DM inbox, including one elected official in the Netherlands today. We have no indication that any other former. Elected official had their DM's accessed and quote. Tripwire thinks the Dutch elected official was geared to wilders who confirmed to Yahoo that he was indeed the one affected. He's now regained control of his account. Reading between the lines as Graham clearly puts it in his piece for trip, wires, state of security, twitter's mention of the elected official in the Netherlands is seen as a slender reassurance from the house of Dorsey that the direct messages of former US President Obama and presumptive Democratic presidential candidate Biden are safe insecure. Whatever nonsense might have been tweeted out during the period of high profile account hijacking. Krebs on security believes at least two of the New York Times is sources and last week story on those responsible for the twitter hack weren't Hemi Semi Demi collectors of original gangster user names, but were themselves active resellers in the underground og market. France had earlier. This year announced that it intended to permit while way equipment into non critical portions of its telecommunications infrastructure, and that policy was widely seen as a win for wow way, which appeared to have successfully got the French government over a barrel, but not so fast Reuters reports that this apparently permissive decision in fact amounted to a policy of eliminating while away from French infrastructure by twenty twenty eight. Which while giving Shenzhen somewhat longer runway than it was allowed by a recent UK decision amounts to the closing of another major market. Security researchers at Cisco Talos describe the low key UNOBTRUSIVE. Workings of the promise bought net quietly mining minero since this March. Is Unlikely to escape the notice of defenders who are on the watch for the kind of activity it exhibits. The researchers think that most end users probably wouldn't be aware of an attack. Promontory exhibits several features of the Mitre attack framework, most notably t ten eighty nine disabling security tools, t 11:05 remote file copy t ten twenty-seven obfuscation files are information, T, ten eighty-six power shell, T, ten thirty-five service execution, T, ten, thirty, six, masquerading and t ten ninety connection proxy. So here's a question. Why should you care if some hoods installs a crypto minor on your devices? It's no skin off your nose, right? Actually no, and here's the skin. There's a drain on computing power and its attendant degradation of system performance more seriously in this case, the botnets harvesting and validation of credentials, which it uses primarily to move laterally across networks. That's bad enough, but consider the after market value of the stolen credentials themselves in the criminal, the criminal market, and that alone should be enough to make anyone want to up their game against Kramah tie. The UK's National Cybersecurity Center has published an assessment of the cyber threat to sports important because quote, sport is central to British life. It provides massive health, social and economic benefits to the nation, contributing to over thirty seven billion pounds to the UK economy each year and quote. This makes the sector attractive to attackers crooks like it on the Willie Sutton esque grounds that that's where the money is and nation states might be drawn to it because well if they wish to Britain ill, they might sap its morale by attacking football, cricket, dog, racing, and so on. As it is, however the report concentrates on the former. It's crime that the world of sports should be concerned with the three trends NC SC discerns our first business email compromise. Next cyber enabled fraud that is things like mandate fraud CEO fraud, conveyancing fraud and invoice fraud, and finally of course ransomware. Which is to say that sport in the UK is susceptible to much the same sorts of cybercrime that afflict businesses from the physician's practice to the local realtor from the bank to the oil company. Among the capers reported are an attack that interfered with a Premier League football. That is soccer as we translate for our North American listeners. Transfer, that is a trade as it's generally called on this side of the Atlantic various ransomware incidents and an attack, the disabled turnstiles to keep supporters. That is what we Americans call fans out of a stadium. The last name turnstile, Hack is particularly interesting as an example of a disabling Internet of things attack. The NCS's report is worth a look in any case for it's accessible explanations of the threats, and it's common sense recommendations for improving security small businesses in particular might profit from a reading. No Nation State hacks reported well sure in general sport probably isn't going to be of much interest to espionage services, and the NC SC report doesn't mention any, but there's a track record even here of some nation state activity remember Russian acts against anti-doping authorities and laboratories, and against targets associated with the last round of Olympic Games when Russian athletes were widely disqualified when they were found taking performance enhancing drugs. With twenty twenty more than halfway over, and some would say thank goodness. It's worth remembering that back in January. We spoke with many cybersecurity professionals who looked in their crystal balls and shared their predictions for what twenty twenty might bring. Looking, back, knowing what we know now. Those predictions were just plain adorable. John Ford is senior security strategist, an iron net cybersecurity, and he joins us with updated twenty twenty predictions. To adjust our focus and be flexible when talking about our cyber priorities. Twenty twenty was already going to be an interesting year given the fact. That it's an election units, so you know we fully anticipated. Cyber Events has close to the election related to the campaigns voting systems. If you will right, you know the covid put that into a very different You know gear on in the car if you will. and has changed the landscape significantly. And how so? So for one. We still have a goes seen campaigns. Going on, you know you have any election year, but now we've added to in a couple of different arenas like one. Neth now we have people will private sector and public sector scrambling to add allies secure this remote workforce and I. Don't how long I'm going to needed poor, so we have that scenario, and then we have a couple of other scenarios you know. Our. Adversaries obviously want to take advantage of this right, and it's something I call You know having the conversation. The other day with somebody's would space race to dot. United States and China. Collectively I think there's about nine companies chained to countries that are really actively pursuing vaccine, and and this is very very similar to what we saw space race right where it's not just a matter of national pride. It's A. It could become an economic boon for you know we have. A country is I the market. And there's a diplomatic component that goes along with it as well because you know who's first of the market Kinda dictate who gets the vaccine? Right and you can. You can do a lot with medic relations that you know are amassed by the Amana -tarian component you want to. You want to share, but so those in a result is. Those companies developing those vaccines you know we already know that they're. Very much under attack right now it's going to be a very interesting You've perspective and I wouldn't be surprised, and this is just my own thinking, but I really wouldn't be surprised if we saw something close to the election where why nation or another announces, you know. Hey, we're very close to coming out with a vaccine. Just shock me. If I'm an organization out there looking to protect myself. How do I calibrate my efforts against the that are coming at me, you know from nation states from from online organized crime. I mean how do I set the standard or my own understanding of what they're capable of? Well in isolation you can't because you know. It's been proven time and time again. Also private sector companies, even the best of the best. Don't have you know the tools, talent and resources really to defend against the nation state like China Heat, some sort of a force multiplier to join forces within our sector and not compete, but to say hey, you know within the secretary of ten companies, and we're leveraging the resources of all ten to defend against that action state adversary. That model if we're participating with government entities as well then we have a chance griping. Today's model. It's just a matter of time. That's John Ford from iron, net or security. VW SEE has published. The results of a survey took a week and a half ago to assess the state of cybersecurity awareness in businesses as one might expect. The results showed that the leaders perceptions significantly from those of the lead. The PWS's survey concludes quote, the communication and training they offer on cybersecurity and cyber acumen aren't resonating with employees. Most. Workers have little awareness of how their employers are protecting them or their company from hackers, ransomware phishing or other attacks. In some cases, employees are even flouting security rules by downloading unsecure. APPS or sharing their work device with family, members and quote. Among other recommendations, the report suggests that companies stressed the personal implications of security to their employees that is, don't tell them about how a data could hurt the business instead. Tell them how it could hurt them through identity theft. We might put it this way if you're in the habit of saying things like now that we provided training. I don't WanNa. Hear that anyone has clicked. A fishing lincoln an email. Well, it will work in this sense. You won't hear it. Remember friends bad news isn't like good wine. It doesn't improve with age. And now a word from our sponsor, GD it cyber impacts every aspect of our lives. That's why Gd I t is driven to ensure clients have cyber protection today while out thinking the threats tomorrow. GD It secures today embedding resilient cyber solutions into every aspect of the mission from fortifying our nation's critical infrastructure to securing the technical edge, and they prepare for tomorrow, deploying new technology and partnerships to anticipate and preempt future risks. Their cyber experts enable agencies to evolve with confidence, accuracy and resiliency. They do all this because they know. Cyber is not a singular part of the mission. It's the thread that runs across every endpoint, every network and every person by proactively protecting instantly responding and constantly evolving GDI. It makes today secure and tomorrow smarter learn more at Gd. It dot com slash cyber. And join me once again is professor she'd. He's a professor of Cybersecurity at Bristol University Great to have you back? wonder touch today on cybersecurity and remote working, which of course is top of mind for lots of folks these days as we make our way through the global pandemic. What can you offer on that topic for us today? They've all worked from home different different points in time you know in many in many jobs, people people can sometimes stand and works remotely, and some people work sort of mode off in a multi than others, but the present pandemic what it has done is it has led to many many people and hold organizations what can working remotely and that that brings to the full importance of cybersecurity and also consideration of the security and privacy properties of. Of the platforms that we are using to conduct of work from home, and it's not just a platform that has all sorts of other complicated issues that for example organizations need to consider. Because in some cases, employees will have devices that are given to them from the place, but another cases because of the way the lockdown and pandemic unfolded. That wasn't always possible organizations to do and especially in smaller organizations that may not have been the case. Case in any way possible and the next of that is that people may actually using share devices that the shared with other family members the mail to be working in settings where they are actually in shed houses on insurance faces, and so on so there is a lot of these considerations that previously where we could consider that employees will be in a workplace. There will be particular security policies in place with regards to that workplace doesn't necessarily. Necessarily apply. We are effectively in this kind of a workplace setting and the security teams in organizations as well as at the strategy level organizations need to consider what does that mean for the cybersecurity organization as a whole, the employees also need to consider as to what that means and tons of data sponsor vanity, but critically very important to consider you know what is feasible and feasible incomes of secure ways of working in in this kind of. Know as we settle in with this, you know being a couple months in now I suppose. There's an issue, too that people make adjustments to their home setup. They could get a new computer or a new router or add new devices, or the kids can get new devices. I I suppose it's harder for the folks who are in charge of security for an organization to keep track of just from an inventory point of view. What's accessing what? Yes absolutely normally when you are in a workplace, you have a set of devices that you procured. You have deployed. You have given given to your to your employees, and I go back to my very early example. In this case, people may actually be working from share devices that are personal devices that the show with family members. They may be sitting in kind of share share. Share settings, but also what about the security hygiene of those devices, because on a on a corporate network for example you may be done in various types of security tools that may be monitoring for example for malware for for viruses under the other types of issues that is not necessarily happening more remote work setting. Of course we can DECLI- AD. That people sort of. Log into organizational systems using using VPN's, but died only going. T's the security of that link that does not necessarily got into the security of the kind of Wider Network Mitch that devices actually in place in the first instance, and then of course you know, VPN's interfered with some of the services for example recording session today without a VPN because it defends, but that according, and and so it's. Not that that's a very practical example, right? You know when when you're and for example in our in our own work, they've been trying to run labs with students remotely. Actually the the routers in some cases interfered with the kind of devices that we had given them to use for the lab work so. It's not a simple audio anymore. Where your it systems are completely are largely within your control and you can, you can make sure that particular to go to policies are enforced by security properties are in place, but he can have countermeasures in place, and and this leads to really really interesting. Question as to how do we actually insured salvage guilty for organizations which effectively are now operating in a virtual? Organization, setting of it that employees distributed all over the place. Yeah! All right well, it's it's an ongoing interesting issue to to to get your arms around a Weiss Rasheed. Thanks for joining us. And? That's the cyber wire. Linked all of today's stories check out our daily briefing at the cyber wire dot, com and professionals in cybersecurity leaders who want to stay abreast of this rapidly evolving field sign up for cyber wire pro. It'll save you time and keep you informed. Listen for us on your Alexa Smart Speaker to thanks to all of our sponsors for making the cyber wire possible, especially are supporting sponsor proof points observant leading people centric insider threat management solution. Learn more at it dot com. The cyber wire podcast is proudly produced in Maryland out of the startup studios of data tribe where they're co building the next generation of Cybersecurity, teams and technologies are amazing cyber wire team is Elliott Peltzman Haroo precaut- Stefan theory. Kelsey, Bond Tim no Dr. Joe Kerrigan Harold -Tario Ben. Yellen Vic for Lucky Jana. Johnson Bennett Mo- Chris Russell John Patrick Jennifer, Ivan Rick Howard Peter Kilby and I'm Dave Bittner? Thanks for listening so you back here tomorrow?

John Ford Twitter US Dave Bittner UK twenty twenty official fraud NC China football National Cybersecurity Center CIS Beijing Netherlands University of Bristol Rick Howard engineer
Dog Training Hearsay and Heresy

Canine Nation

12:20 min | 9 years ago

Dog Training Hearsay and Heresy

"Welcome to canine nation audio edition. It's Tuesday June fifth twenty twelve. Canine nation is a regular feature. Call that runs on the life is a human online magazine. Life is a human features articles about what it means to be human the good, the bad and the enlightening this column explores what it means to be human in our relationship with dogs. You can find it at life as a human dot com. To get directly to canine nation. Goto canine, nation dot life is a human dot com. Complete archive of all the canine nation articles can be found there. Hi, I'm Eric, Brad. Canine nation is about learning understanding and living successfully with our dogs modern animal training techniques based on behavioral science can produce mazing results in working with our dogs. Whether your dog is a loved family member or a working dog canine athlete or a trusted companion positive training techniques based on science can help you. Enjoy a more productive and fun relationship with your dog. Join us as we explore the many facets of living with our dogs and taking a fresh look at how we worked with them. Whether it's taking a closer look at everyday issues, we share with our dogs or busting longstanding myths about training and Doug behavior. I hope you find something useful in each of the canine nation articles. We're glad you're with us. Now, here's this week's installment. Dog training hearsay and Harris. There are a few common phrases that float around in dog training world that get my hackles up. One of those phrases is I'll use whatever training techniques. My dogs need the implication being that some dogs are more responsive to one technique over another. And while there may be some truth in that statement, the variations necessary to train individual dogs are not as great as some trainers would have you believe training. Our dogs is a mostly private affair. We work in our own homes with our own dogs. And we do the best. We can we get our information on how to train from a variety of sources many of us grew up in families with dogs and watched our parents work with dogs. Some of us looked to books for ideas and information and some seek out the advice of professional trainers or dog owning friends and the variety of media outlets available today offer dog owners. New sources of information from discussion groups and blogs on the internet to dog oriented shows on television. It has been said that the only thing to dog trainers can agree on is that a third dog trainer is wrong. It's a line. That is always good for a chuckle, but only because there is some truth in it. Why is it that with all of the resources of the twenty first century at our disposal? No consensus on dog training methodology has been reached. You might think that enough research has been done to give us a general picture of what works and what doesn't. So why do opinions on dog training vary so widely? That's a complicated question and one that doesn't have easy answers. Certainly a big part of what people believe about dogs and dog training is what they have seen with their own eyes. If a given training technique produces the desired result that technique works in the eyes of that trainer. So why is it that what works for one dog doesn't work for different dog? The answer may lie in the trainers and not the dogs in his book. Blink author, Malcolm. Glad well talks about the adaptive unconscious a set of mental processes identified in the human mind, this adaptive unconscious can actually leave us convinced that we saw something even if what actually happened was quite different. How is this possible researcher? Timothy Wilson writes in the unseen mind that his subjects were quote, unaware of their own unawareness, unquote regard. The bias of their decisions instead of recognizing that we were already looking for a particular outcome. We use our reasoning and introspection to explain why we saw what we wanted to see this disconnect between our adaptive unconscious and are introspective reasoning mind sets the stage for misperceptions that we absolutely believe the only way past this kind of conflict between reality. And our perception of it is a willingness to reexamine the observable facts, we are influenced by what we are familiar with. And the things we understand. In other words, it's possible that a trainer believes their training methods work because it is what they have been taught. It is what they understand their adaptive unconscious influences their choices and their perception of their results our ability to rationalize our choices is also biased by another important factor. Most dog owner. Hours have only trained a handful of dogs. I have met dog owners who are absolutely convinced that a particular training technique is one hundred percent affective for teaching certain behavior after talking with them about their discovery. It becomes clear that their success is based on a sample of one or two dogs, the ones they currently work with at home. This kind of trainer is often at a loss to explain why their technique works, but they can show you how to use it with your own dog. If it doesn't work with your dog. They will politely suggest that you might not be doing it correctly. Their method can't be flawed because it works with their dogs. Another factor is that it is difficult to teach a dog the same behavior using different methods. Once they have learned the desired behavior. We can't reset them to try teaching different way. Even if we could why would we we already have a technique that works, and it has done the. Job in the past. So a given trainer is limited by their ability to compare different training techniques. In a relatively short timeframe. They have only so many dogs to work with and only so much time as recently as fifteen or twenty years ago, it might be difficult for a dog owner to get information about the effectiveness of a particular training approach. It might involve trips to the library or bookstores. It might require phone calls to training professionals around the world to ask about training methods and results the lucky ones might have access to a university that was doing research on canine behavior. But today we have the internet as a dog trainer in the twenty first century. I no longer have the luxury of looking to my own adaptive unconscious and a limited pool of information to justify my training approaches everything from the experiences and knowledge of professional animal trainers around the world. To university research on canine behavior and learning are at my fingertips if I choose to access them. But overturning decades of my own experience to find that. I don't know what I thought I knew can be a scary proposition in my own case. I have made my choice to see as much as I can see and discard the things I've learned in the past if they don't hold up in the light of new information that I'm learning I have chosen to reexamine the things I have heard from dog trainers and dog owners, the hearsay, and what I'm finding is that much of what I'm learning goes against many of the things I was taught about dogs. That's the heresy of a science based approach. The difference is that the new information goes beyond what I have seen with my own eyes and relies on the weight of trials and experiences of trainers who are recording and reporting their results numbers don't lie. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. There are lots of ways people teach their dogs each method has its pros and cons. But in the end people use what works for them. And that's just fine. Right wrong. Would it surprise you? If I told you that methods based on punishing incorrect behaviors actually cause more problems than methods that rely on rewarding correct? Behaviors in two thousand four a study was done at the university of Bristol. In England it involved interviewing hundreds of dog owners and trainers about their dogs training methods and the most common problem behaviors reported in dogs in the conclusion of their research. Paper the authors report that quote in the general Doug owning population dogs trained using punishment. Are no more obedient than those trained by other means and Furthermore, they exhibit increased numbers of potentially problematic behaviors, unquote. This isn't. The hearsay of a dog owner whose best friend is a dog trainer who has been quote doing it for twenty years unquote, and knows her methods work. These are the results of university educated animal behaviorists who devised a specific methodology to determine their results using hundreds of average dog owners in their trials. Their results were submitted for review by other professionals, and it stood up to their rigorous scientific standards and too many dog trainers out there that is heresy using training methods because they have always worked for certain dogs may not be the most effective way to go after all I can drive nails with a heavy wrench, but that's not the most effective way to go a hammer works better or so I'm told remember that our dogs are thinking and feeling animals, and they are not neutral as to which training approach. We use a given training method may get the desired results. But as the university of Bristol study shows, it may also get you some additional problems that you didn't anticipate we have the capacity to fool ourselves, the research on human psychology shows us that the adaptive unconscious is particularly good at masking our biases for certain answers or approaches. We may not even recognize that those new problems with our dogs come out of our own choice of training methods. We all love our dogs. We should take the same care and choosing. How we work with them that we do in choosing the right food for them or the right places to go for a walk to me that phrase, I use what works for my dogs is not good enough justification for how we train I want to know that I'm using the most effective training methods based on solid research. And if that doesn't jive with the hearsay in my local dog community, I'm content that methods are heresy. Until next time have fun with your dogs. I hope you enjoyed this edition of canine nation. You can find the text version of it at canine, nation dot life is a human dot com. You can join our discussion about dogs and dog training on Facebook. Just search for canine nation to get to our group. You can ask for membership. And we'll add you to are growing family. If you can spread the word about the podcast or link to our canine, nation dot life is a human dot com page. We would certainly appreciate it. That's it for now. Thanks for listening.

university of Bristol Doug Facebook Timothy Wilson Eric England researcher Harris Malcolm Brad twenty years one hundred percent
Zebra Coloration Messes With Fly Eyes

60-Second Science

03:36 min | 2 months ago

Zebra Coloration Messes With Fly Eyes

"Scientific american sixty seconds signs announced stratton. Everyone loves zebras. No doubt it's a natty stripes but recent research into why. The stripes exist indicates that the markings maybe something of a mixed blessing for the zebras. The them new research adds to evidence against old ideas somehow stripes cool them down or confuse predators such as lions confusing. Lions will be nice for them but the good news is that a group of researches have additional evidence in support of a hypothesis. They proposed in two thousand fourteen. Stripes seem to confuse biting flies causing them to overfly or crash into the zebras. The study is in the journal. Proceedings of the royal society be various. Ideas have been tossed around in the last one hundred fifty years about the african at quit stripes. This debate goes right back to the birth of evolution darwinian. What is exchanging letters on the subject. Martino a biologist who studies animal vision the university of bristol and lead author of the study. How'd is colleagues sorta mechanism for how stripes 'cause insect confusion the began with domestic horses in great britain. The cover the horse is we've rugs featuring an array of designs from single colored black or grey to check patents and of cools zebra stripes. The research is then recorded videos of horse flies trying to get it. The horses detail of what these zapper starts with doing to host size as they were flying coming into land we found who spicer flying much faster as they came to land on strikes patents than they were when he landed on gray black faster and more emphatically the flies made successful landings much less frequently on the horses in stripes then on the solids but as more recent what also applies to chant seems something about black my patents as really confusing size. One assumption was a stripes affect the flies optic flow their prices known as the aperture affect. That's a fake creates a vision illusion akin to a barber shops poll and juicing distortion and causing flies to misjudge landings upon stripes surfaces but crediting the aperture effects ability to discombobulated biting flies appears to be flawed because the researchers found that check surfaces were just as effective a repenting flies as we're stripes once we lost the aperture effect is a possible explanation for house zebra charts affect your within the tend to other suggestions they might be some other kind of illusion softening in the eyes of these flies and it could also be the strike saw disrupting the so the search pattern these need to try and find undertaking more experience. Now trying find out which is the case. Whatever the resort evolution had a good reason to make abors a horse of a different color. Thanks for listening. For scientific american sixty seconds signs. I'm out stratton.

one hundred fifty years sixty seconds stratton royal society university of bristol Martino Lions great britain confusion
Vets Beyond Pets

The Naked Scientists

55:08 min | 1 year ago

Vets Beyond Pets

"Uh-huh. Have you loud and clear? Signs, and that is the same physics medicine nature brain the universe. Hello this week horse racing. Equine flu a hedgehog hospital and a trip to the local zoo. We're looking at how to keep animals healthy. Why that's good news Ross humans to plus how a dose of caffeine perks up solar panel cell transplants to boost wound and tissue repair. An gene breakthrough for a beastie. I'm outta Murphy. I'm Chris myth. This is the naked scientists. The naked scientists podcast is powered by UK, FOSS dot coach UK. I this week initial steps towards developing a better way to use transplanted cells to repair wounds and regenerate tissues has been developed by scientists at the university of Bristol. The breakthrough was coating the cells of the molecule call thrombin, this is normally produced in a wound to help blow to clot which it does by converting a substance of the bloodstream, call by Brennan into a sticky meshwork glues the wound together. Now the ultimate goal is to take a patient's own stem cells coach them in a dish. And then endow them with this ability. And this means they can be injected into a wound with gonna lay down the repair material and in the process and over themselves to survive and stimulate hailing Adam Perriman, one of the big challenges in south RPI. So these therapies where we use for example, patient's own cells to treat is the environment of the cells face, they're either injected all transplanted quite aggressive. And so we will try to come up with a way to effectively coat the cells to make them more. Resistant to those harsh environments is this like anatomical velcro for cells your decorating cells with molecules that make them stickier and Mike the environment. More receptive to them coming in and living and surviving. It is a bit like Docker. I mean, we put on the first molecule, which is what we call an enzyme. And what that does is actually can take molecules that are naturally in the body and can assemble them into what we call a hydrogel, which is a bit like jelly that you have you know, when you fridge when you're making you're making jello shots. So what molecule is it you putting on do that? So we put on molecule 'thrombin. This is a molecule which gets switched on. When we cut ourselves, we have a wound. And then it actually causes a second molecule could five burner Jen to self assemble into this gel. How'd you get the 'thrombin onto the cells in the first place? Okay. Well, that's a great question. We take this throne this big it's what we call macromolecules protein. And we effectively decorate this molecule with detergent molecules very specialized to touch molecules similar to perhaps a detergent that you would have in laundry detergent, and what this does is it allows these from molecules to basically insert into the membrane of the cells. So that the bit that surrounds us. Owls you end up with cell the a bit like spiky Meatball? It's called these thrown been enzyme sticking out of the surface. So they retain their ability to be an enzyme to make that fiber turn into sticky fibrous sticking on the surface of the cell to do it. That's right. Actually what happens. You can literally take the solution of this 'thrombin, and you can incubated Celso just mix it with cells. And then it will spontaneously start to to stick an assembly on the surface. And what's interesting about this is that when when we start to form this hydrogel, this special type of material it actually glues a weld these cells together, and that's what's really different. What we're doing in this research? Does it just come down to gluing things in place, or does that fiber meshwork the matrix that you end up making does that have other properties in the sense that does it encourage things like blood vessels to come in? Because one of the other major things that that is a challenge for cell transplantation is making sure that the cells have a ready supply of raw materials brought in by things like the bloodstream. Yeah. Okay. So fiber as a what we would call the by material is is quite special one of the important components that allows cells to actually crawl around and move around and three's the cell phone like to just necessarily sit way you put them. They might wanna move around and start to if you growing tissue piece of skin you might need to sell to move around and connect with another sell their computers. They really interpret the localized environment. And so they're a special types of buttons on Sal and materials like fibre and consider push those buttons and tell the cell that it's a happy place. It's in a good environment to survive when it comes down to blood vessel formation again. You know, this obviously involves you know, cells assembling into into tubes. And they're sorta systems, obviously, fiber, and again would provide a a nice environment for the formation of of of blood vessels. And have you actually tried doing this what we dump in vivo, if you take a real world example, like a wound or? A situation where you would want to graph tissue in in a living entity have you actually demonstrated that this has improved performance when you do it like this the digital folks of the paper was on developing synthetic biology and the chemistry of molecules, but towards the end of the research, we did some experiments on a model organism. So we worked with zebra fish poly, because when they're really young transparent, and so you can image them. So in that situation, we actually took fish skin cell. We painted them with special 'thrombin and inject those into into zebra fish, and showed that the cells are still viable and wasn't bad for zebra fish. But really the next phase of the of the research will be looking at wound models to see whether or not we can increase wound closure in a model. Organism? Like this. Exciting stuff, Adam Perriman that work has just been published in the journal nature communications. Certainly is exciting time, isn't it? Now. Most of us have experienced the pick me up which comes from a. Cup of coffee tea. I should know thrive on the stuff. But this week scientists in the US and China the somewhat surprising announcement the adding caffeine to this solar panels made them work better to to find out why Katie Hayler stick the kettle on until the look at the results with Cambridge University. Solar panel expert, Paul Cox than solar cells take light from the sun. They usually made a semiconductor material which is halfway between a metal and an insulator special sandwich of different materials together. And they absorb the light inside the crystal this material you excite the atoms inside making these charges these positive and negative particles. This is forming your current commonly if I look at some solar panels on my roof, or if I travel passed a Sola femme how much of the light going in is actually being converted to Tuesday at the end. Well, most of. The solar panels, which you see out in about today will be made from silica about ninety three percent of the world's Sola like Tristan is made with silicon solar cells. And so they have a limit of about twenty to twenty three percent at the moment. So what did this group do then because they were in looking at silicon were they know they will work on a new classification of material cool, poofs gates, and these attracted a lot of attention in recent years. These are quite different to silicon solar cells in you can make the material at very low temperature that just wet chemicals you can mix together, and they form a crystal structure. This crystal structure is very very good at turning light into electricity. What they did was. They added some caffeine into the mix and this affected how the crystals in these layers grew. So hang on main. I'm saying here the Cup of tea eve Cup of coffee. What made them decide to put caffeine in a solo will caffeine has got a special chemical groups called call box. I'll groups so this is a carbon atom joined to an oxygen atom with two bonds by adding this into the chemical mix of your Perov sky. Ciller sell this passive ated or stabilize the material in a special way which influence how crystals grew within the Silla cell layer. And this made the layer slightly more crystalline it gives you better crystals and better quality crystals, which are bigger crystals and this improved how the solar sail behaved. Why is that then the caffeine actually doing to benefit this Broza? It actually made it slightly harder to grow lots and lots of little crystals. So as you're coating, these wet chemicals together and forming crystalline lay imagine you've got lots of little crystals growing in all different directions. When these little crystals come together at the boundaries. These are wet defects can occur and these impinge or slow down the charges moving through the film by adding the caffeine, you made it slightly harder for these random crystals to grow and it made the crystals grow in. A preferential direction in one way more likely this gave you bigger crystals. She gave you a more uniform layer. So by having big a crystals in the layer, it changed how the electrons moved through the lair and lead to higher voltage of your Silla, sell, and it gave you a higher power conversion officiency they managed to increase it using caffeine to about twenty percent, which is great achievement for them. So is it fair to say that because of the effect the caffeine had on the the growth of the crystals these Perot Skype crystals? This could potentially increase the efficiency of solar panels made from Pearl sky, which are currently not mainstream. Right. No, they're still quite new. So this of research in this area. So yes, but adding the caffeine in this way, you can influence how these crystals grow and give higher conversion fishing sees. But also it made these crystals more stable against heat. So one of the problems which off Scott's. Can have is that under heat the layer can degrade. But they found the caffeine influenced how the ions charged particles in these layers moved and this meant that they were more stable at higher temperatures. This means that out and about in the real world situation the most stable and they could last longer. I can see why having material that degraded heat is a bit of a problem when it comes to trying to make a soul upon oh, what is the point of doing this with Perov skied if most solar cells and made out of silicon can we put caffeine in silicon to make that more efficient where we come put the caffeine in the silicone, but we can put the Perot skylights. Maybe with the caffeine on top of silica. And this means that we can Kyun the top layer of your poff Skype to harvest the blue light from the sun and the red light passes through and gets absorbed by the silicon and Denise so magin having the sky piggybacking on top of the silicon this allows you to capture. More of that Silla light and turn into lecture St. much more efficiently. So who would have thought that caffeine Capelle, a solar panels performance? Poor Cox, we're speaking with Katie halo about their study is just come out in the journal, Jill. So what we were trying to do with this paper is to demonstrate the ability to type using brain signals anywhere between proxima foreign approximately eight words per minute factor of between two and four faster than what's been demonstrated before each month, the alive podcast talks to some of the world's best. Scientists join me Chris Smith as I hear about breathtaking discoveries. Hot off the press finds the podcast on itunes or listening. Download for free from naked scientists dot com slash alive. Christmas on automobile with you this week still to come technology from space. That's now helping us to sniff out bed books and down into a bow. And they went on Cal. And then to get into that you can just take that back, and if you lightly brushed the spines they will slow young Cal. I get to meet some prickly, but very cute patients at a hedgehog hospital to procure interesting firstly, scientists at the university of Cambridge have identified how gene which is called emcee for our affects the chances of someone becoming obese and thereby carrying a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Study's, author Luca Lata is with us. So look what does this MC four gene to? Thank you for having me here. So emcee for our the milliner court in for receptor is a receptor. There is expressed in her brain and helps us control our appetite and the way it works is when you have. Meal there's hormonal response to the food intake and this response activates Farrar an emcee for ours has our body. Hey, you're you've just had a meal it's time to fill full. And so you stop taking on more more fuel. Yeah. Exactly. And that's why we started these gene and genetic variation in this gene to understand the mechanisms of appetite regulation, and they're linked to abusively because it was already known that this gene is linked to a city and appetite wasn't it. You started looking at it. Yes colleagues. They see to metabolic science in Cambria discovered. This gene in nineteen ninety eight when they described mutations that disrupted this genes that were associated with a higher risk of obesity. And are finding here is the opposite. That there are other genetic variance in the same gene that are actually associated with a lower weight, lower risk of obesity blood pressure, diabetes, and heart disease. Now, how did you find? Those variants, and why did your colleagues back in the nineteen ninety s why did they miss the fact that the gene seemed to work in both directions lie that we studied sixty different genetic variance in MC four R. And we studied this in a very large study of half a million people from the general population in the UK. So some of these genetic variance are rare and particularly the vari- the way identified in in the study require a large sample size to to be able to tact a certain cessations into where did you get data from half a million people? So there's a there's a very large study in the UK, which is called the UK bio Bank, which is a study over half a million volunteers from the general population in the UK UK bio mankind makes data widely available to researchers in particular in this area. So we we apply them. We got the data. We started this particular research question were you asking of those people? What's your form of emcee for our what's your gene light and annoy you or thin is that basically? What you're asking. Yeah. It's it's what we've looked at genetic data part of the data that are available in UK bio Bank, and there's over sixty different genetic variance in this, gene. And we studied the association of this genetic variance with fatness of thinness and risk of this disease. And we also studied this genetic variance in lab experiments in cell cultures. Where we found that genetic variance there are associated with lower risk of obesity in this gene increase the activity of these receptors the receptors switched on. And we think that this suggests that some people may find it easier to control their appetite because of their genetic makeup because their appetite suppressing activity of MC for our stays activated for longer. And does this mean them that we may be able to manipulate the gene in this way in order to make a person who would otherwise want to eat more less than other words, feel full of sooner. Yes, what we hope is that. Now drug developers may use. What we've learned from this genetic study. And try to copy the protective effect of this naturally occurring genetic variance with medicines. That suppress betide by activating this receptor and in particular pathway that we've studied for the first time in relation to this receptor called bitter arrest in which we strongly linked with this protective effect. Now when you say this new way of interacting missiles speech arrest in how does that work? Then the way it works is that the receptor binds bitter Essen and stays on the surface for longer on the cell surface for long. That's how it leaves this. I feel fuller for longer sensation. Exactly the normal receptor that is carried by most people in in the general population. Once activated gets recruited within the cell. So it cannot stay on the surface after in activated. Whereas the mutant receptor for these particularly beneficial genetic variance stay on the cell surface for longer in these experiments suggesting that these people may find it to control their tight because the receptor. I switched on. And if we look at a range of people, what proportion of the obesity in those people is attributable to this effect because of the obesity isn't just down to this one. Gene is there's a whole range of factors that can lead to this. Yes. So what contribution to the overall picture of the person in front of you is this particular component? Yes. We know from other studies that obesity is fifty percent due to the environment and fifty percent due to genetics and genetic Semyon several different genetic variants in different genes in the genome. The main reason actually why obesity so prevalent in the population is actually due to the environment. The availability of calorie-rich for the trends of physical activity. But the reason why we studied the genetic aspects of obesity is that obesity heads gaining sites into the mechanisms that lead to visit the in there for ways that we can prevent or treat this condition. Luka? Thank you very much. Indeed. That's Luca lot from the university of Cambridge and the paper. He's just written on that work as just been published in the journal cell. And now it's time for this. What happens when the science and technology of space comes down to. Welcome to down to earth from the naked scientists mini series. That explores spinoffs from space technology that have been used on earth. I'm steer Higgins this episode how the technology developed to detect gases on the surface of a comet is now being used hunt. Bedbugs in hotels on November twelfth two thousand fourteen scientists in the resent emission put off one of the most ISS maneuvers in space science history. They managed to land a pro feel on the surface of a comment fillet discovered. A richer Romer of organic molecules just in the chemical ingredients for life were present in the early universe. When the comet was formed Philly had multiple scientific instruments on board, including gas chromatography mass spectrometer, which is actually two instruments built into one. The gas chromatograph is used a split up a sample into its fundamental molecules. It does this by blowing the south with her a long cheap that she was heated and the molecules vaporized different molecules stick and unstick the chief at different speeds. Slowly, they separate out arrive at the end of the chief at different times, the mass spectrometer takes these separated molecules ionizers them combined with electrons which breaks them up into electrical charge parts these challenge. Parts separated easy in electric, food and a measured by detector using signals from both parts of the system and comparing the results to experiments carried out on earth with no materials is possible to work out. What the original sample was. Gas chromatography mass spectrometry can smell the air and work at what chemicals it contains back on earth. This machine can take up the same spaces to kitchen ovens for the Philae probe engineers needed to cram. The technology into the size of small shoebox. And it's this development that one British companies using to help hunt for unwanted life. Closer to home. Bedbugs bloodsucking parasites that high decide mattresses come at night feet, unsuspecting. Humans dangerous bedbugs aren't particularly pleasant that can be hard to get rid of dating with outbreaks Noto's can be expensive one companies using the technology from the fillet probe to help develop a portable bedbug detector but books give a range of organic molecules, so analyzing air samples can reveal their presence the detector aims to hope hotels, avoid unwanted guests and outbreaks and is currently on trial across the UK. So that's how technology developed carry science experiments in the comet is helping hotels in the UK. Stay bedbug free that was down to earth from the naked scientists my name is Stuart Higgins and join me again soon to learn more about space on g was being used back on earth. The only one failing just marginally itchy of that. Thank you very much to Stuart Higgins bringing us down to me. Well, if you'd like to find any more about any of the stories that we've been discussing this week the transcripts as well as the pipers underpinning research talking about is on our website. You got a naked scientists dot com. And finally, we just like to acknowledge some feedbacks, which as this one from Jim in Washington who wanted to point out how nice the atmosphere we created in the oven show was a few weeks ago. One retested a whole new form of and to cook a chicken, Katie did a great job with when I finished that show. Absolutely starving. I didn't Adam why oh I was got to eat the chicken. So I was up slightly fine. I wasn't starving. Lucky? It wasn't. It was delicious. It was really good. Now. Meanwhile, Robin Bala rat has been wondering about the best temperature for washing. Your hands is wondering where the warm water might make bacteria grow faster on the skin. If you wash them with water versus code water, or let's say this. I think the answer is definitely not warm water actually will help soap to work better. And it's actually experiments have proven the physical detachment of bacteria under stream running water by using soap that makes soap so effective as a cleaning agent on your skin, and the fact is your warm-blooded. Hopefully, anyway, so you're gonna have warm hand. And so any minor thermal impact from just a bit warm waters going to be trivial compared with the heat, the bacteria can have from your skin. Anyway, in terms of what goes down the drain will that Susu. And in terms of what comes out of the hot pipe will. Hopefully, you're domestic water supply ship bit between fifty five and sixty degrees C which should be more than enough to kill off any nasty microbes that already in the water. So I would advocate warm water and Sipe as the best way of washing your hands and don't worry about temporarily possibly boost in the growth of any bugs that are there while they're there, they won't be there for very long, Adam. Thanks, rob. And if you've got any questions comments or feedback for the program, please send them into Chris at the naked, scientists dot com. Tweet at naked scientists or find us on Facebook. And have you listened to the podcast? Please leave us a review on there too. The naked scientists podcast is produced in the sociation with Spitfire cost effective voice, internet and engineering services for UK businesses. Find out how Spitfire can. Pal your company that's fit fire dot co dot UK. You're listening to the naked scientists with may Christmas and with Adam Urfi in this off of the program. We're going to hear about helping our four legged furry friends and find out why keeping animals well is good for us humans as well. I hope we're taking a stroll into the garden where if you're quiet of unlucky enough, you might get to see a hedgehog worming its way through the undergrowth once a millionaire site in British gardens. These animals are sadly disappearing. Luckily, though, Adam did get to meet one because he made a trip to ship with wildlife. Conservation charity where they have a facility, which is all about helping hedge hoax. Hedgehogs the spiky little mammals to roam around our gardens. Snow fling out insects. They like hedges and they have little pig like stance, hence hedgehog. They're adorable little things that mean, none of us. Any harm sadly hedgehogs are in decline. Their habitats are getting walled off into gardens. And they often fall victim to parasites strimmers one place. Helping them out is the shepherd wildlife conservation charity hedgehog hospital here in Cambridgeshire. I spoke with Alex Masterman welfare, officer out the charity who first of all showed me one of their doorbell. Little patients. So what's what's wrong with Rosemary? Yes. I was out during the day several times. So she was brought in they thought might be quite old and she had fleas, and she was quite lethargic. And then when we checked out. Yes, as she had capillary and criticize lungworm around one things that she was about five hundred grams when she come in. And she's now I mean much bigger than that. Now in the one thousand two hundred grams range that she's doing radio, I'm when she's actually on our clean show, which means she's now completely parasite free and weren't looking for a home French be released into now. And when I was finished fawning over the hedgehog, the first one I'd ever seen in the flash I'm ashamed to say. I wanted to know how you treat something whose first instinct is to curl into a ball of spikes, some jokes more print kiling than others, especially our old ones. He picked him up. Sometimes they weren't very Clark job or when you pick her up and see she. Well, one of the ways that we can like see underneath them say for general fast aid when they come in. We want to make sure this no cuts or injuries underneath is. If you saw will bury them like that that instinct is to put their feet down. And that will make them co. Of them nearly under their heads that sort of gives us sort of gene shut their belly this nice and fluffy and things some of them, especially the new young ones when they come in your put them down and Cal into a bowl, and they weren't ankle. And then to get them to do that you can just take that back, and if you saw lightly brush, the spines they will slow young Cal, no idea why in terms of the medication. We give hair under the skin into the vines all the muscle. And for that. We actually like them to be killed up into a bowl. What we do is. We put them on their back, and there's a ring of muscle solve around the front, and that's how Cal up, and we just take some of the spines around the edge and gently Palau, and what that does is exposes some of the skin tents it so that we can then get the needle and put in parallel to the day and just getting under the skin McLeans of things are there. Pokey patients treated for here at say majeure is parasite bed things like lungworm and. Sharon and stuff the mo- one well ringworm as well, which caused them to lose spines and fair, and obviously that's not good style. Stylus their main defense mechanism. We also do get injuries coming on strimmer victims early in the season. We have one at the moment that luckily just did a strimmer, and it's just had some of her spellings taken off. We get one's coming in with missing. Limbs wants a blind. I'd say the majority is definitely parasite burdens. What is the state of hedgehog kind? What is the hospital like this necessary? So hedge works in the UK are actually same decline is Tigers. They are really struggling and experts. Reckon the in the next like ten fifteen years, we could no longer have hedgehogs in the and that's largely because of population loss and fragmentation alot of people close off their gardens and oversee these new roads being Bill and things of that. And it just means that Hitchcock's call me freely and breed as well as people think, they're them and impacts. Really not actually very useful for us in our gardens because they keep downli insects and things that we're going to help them if we wanted to make it easier federal spending to do so one of the things you can do is just create hedgehog ways and you'll garden so making holes in your fence just to allow Hitchcock's to pass through. And that just makes it easier for them to move about. Also putting out food and water hedgehog saly cat and dog food where Android as long as it's not gravy or fish based 'cause I can give them an upset stomach. But especially at this time of year when they're waking up from hydra hibernation. They cannot be dehydrated and really appreciate some food water. And when the impatience are ready to become outpatients. How do you put a hedgehog back into the wild? So we have people on record the hourly sites. So when we have one that's ready. We always try to get them back to or as close to where they come from his possible. So when Tom brings in a head shop who trying to to them bobbing release, if not we'll find someone in like same Ariel. Postcode, and then we will go to self release the hedgehogs go into like a rabbit pen for a few days and get fed in that garden, and then after like, no more than six days, they get Lau. And the people would often still feed them that really good just getting back into the wild have issues. All. They really were very cute the one given an unfortunate haircut by Stewart. They had called Sweeney hog, which I liked very much thing. You had fun lots of love to dock once which was trying to gun dog in the way used to try and gun dogs. Would you give them pieces of wood with barbed wire around it to carry and they learned to be very gentle with their mouth. So this could pick up anything without harming it. And it used to bring everything home and one day. We went out when the pharma harvesters nearby field and came home with the hedgehog and just put it down outside the back door and the other dog we have which was a real moron and it decided because it's the other dog pick it up. It would just pick it up and it did and discovered. What happens when you pick up a hedgehog solution after that was just to show its disquiet by balking now from the garden out in fields now and some bigger animals, including livestock and rice racehorses killing animals together in big numbers. And then moving them around the world amd bring them into contact with humans can lead to outbreaks. Infectious diseases both in those animals, but also in us recently, for example, the horse racing industry was temporarily brought to a standstill by outbreak of Ecuadoran flu. And to explain how they sort of thing happens. And why we need to remain vigilant for this Richard Newton's with us as from the animal health trust in Newmarket. Let's start with the coin. Flu richard. Is that basically the same tears human flu? Yes. It is all flu viruses effect will animals originate from the same source Whicher while file vote birds. And some of those Vars will adapt to new hosts. So the Horsely verse that we've got that we encountered this year, not just in this country, but across northern Europe originated as far as we know back from birds only nine hundred sixty three and it's been a depth thing and changing and circulating in horses ever since awfully viruses in mammals require chains. Of transmission that have to be kept going, and if we can break those chains of transmission than we can stop those viruses. Stop the Aleutian of them, but hopefully Vars very much like human flu viruses loves environments, where those horses are in close proximity to each other the virus will cause them to cough, shed, lots of arson. It will spread onto the next victim. If you lies coughs and sneezes spread diseases for horses as well as him. It's absolutely. Some of those victims of the Newmarket outbreak annals where in the racing industry late been vaccinated those horses though hadn't. So this was an example of Vars that grew through and cemented the vaccine it was most of the flu virus equity influenza that we see occurs in non-vaccinated animals and unfortunately in many parts of the world whilst vaccines are used. There's a sufficient proportion of the population not protected by vaccination so this concert, and occasionally that will spill over into the vaccinated population. And what we see is the flu viruses. The reason it successful. Is that it adapts? It changes it mutates an event. To the protection that guests from vaccination? And that's when we see the outbreaks such as we saw this year in vaccinated animal, and if the horse cuffs on the jockey as well as on the other horses in the race, the jockey catch it in theory, there is a very small risk, but we've never seen horse flu transmitted into humans, and obviously horses are domesticated animals, and they have a lot of human interaction. And so we believe the risk is very small the flu viruses become very well adapted to the host there in and so whilst they're superficially, very similar. They are well adapted, and they don't tend to spread over into new species. Nevertheless, though, I suppose that situations where you have big groups of animals, that's an artificial situation, isn't it because in nature animals would they might live in a herd. But they wouldn't be moved around the way we move animals. They wouldn't be kept on the scale that we keep animals in the modern era would they so we are kind of creating an opportunity for diseases to come in. And then create. Outbreaks yet, if you think that the the horse after humans is the most widely travelled animal, and we do that on airplanes across the world in the same way. And they're numerous examples where we have spread this infection across the world because we've travelled animals that are infected and then become infectious to animals and the latest example of that was back in two thousand seven when Australia had hopefully for the first time, and despite intensive quarantine it still managed to get out probably indirectly via humans carrying the virus. Not being infected. I mean are on their feet are on on something on something and then getting out into a completely susceptible population. And from there, it could spread very very readily. I suppose one of the challenges with flu because you pointed this out that it's originally a bird virus and birds don't have passports, and they do have wings. They can go they won't pretty much. And so they are the best way. If you're a virus of going anywhere around the world because birds don't observe international boundaries to they're in quarantine. Was just gonna fly down land somewhere, and potentially shed the virus. And if it could jump into the nearby flora foreigner it will. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. And that's why many times in the news. We'll hear about avian flu and the concern when it gets into large intensively farmed flocks, and it can wreak havoc in a very short time and avian flu in the wrong species can be fatal very quickly, and you just have dead birds in a very short period of time. So what sorts of measures are in place to safeguard against this sort of thing well in racehorses and other types of horses where this time of year, they're starting to move and mix people use them for sport. We do rely on we recommend very strongly that they undertake vaccination and most times vaccination is highly effective, and it will prevent the infection. Also, it's a matter of being responsible. When owners have Sakano with infections spreading rapidly that they call him veterinary surgeons who can take samples get the diagnosis. And then keep those animals in isolation, and they will get over there will stop shedding virus, and they will will recover, Richard. Thank you very much. Indeed. That's Richard didn't hasten the animal health trust in Newmarket. Now, let's go back to shepherd after visiting the hedgehog hospital. I pop next door to the shepherds wildlife pack to make eve Marin a zookeeper with a laundry list of animals under her care, including ELS, red ponders and some very naughty monkeys. They all have very different needs a monkeys, for example are quite challenging to work with because they are very smart. They're very curious animals. They'll challenge you. They will test your padlocks after you leave to make sure you've locked them properly as you have to be very security conscious. Sometimes I can't go in wearing sunglasses because they'll take them and run away with them. And they seem to do it almost as of teasing you. They know they're being cheeky, and I do it for fun whereas animals like owls thinking about their biological need, providing the right sort of nesting, boxes and. Knowing when they've got seasonal malts coming on winning about to lay eggs and so on. So it's knowing all your different animals biological needs. Veterinary needs husbandry needs psychological needs as well. Now when one of them, unfortunately, get sick. How can you tell them? What do you do you start off with a distance exam distance exams are incredibly important Fizeau keepers because it's possible for animals to hide when they're failing L so an animal might be limping from a distance. And you see that you come up close to it. And suddenly, it's not limping anything that's a bit strange, but you have to remember that these animals still have wild instincts, and they're wild instincts are to hide anything that's physically wrong with them. They hide that. Because obviously a predator is going to look for the weakest animal and has to single them out for attack. So they're conditioned pretty much to try and disguise illness. So can be very difficult to spot unless they know you're not looking at them. But then when we do a close up exam, we look for any problems with any of the orifices. For example, is nose ears and the ones lower down. We also look for what comes out of an animal, but I've had animals in the past monkeys in particular. If you have a good relationship with them, if they have a wound they may, actually even. Come and show. You look I've got this. Can you can you treat it place? And then how would you go about treating it for the different animals? It can be difficult with some animals. There are lots of different methods by what you can treat animals Oviously. You can give them oral medication now. That's one of the easiest ones. If you've got an animal, that's greedy. So I recently had a routine fecal dumb for my red pandas. They came back having an onus. Now, they didn't show any signs at all that they were Sook they probably weren't sick. They were just carrying a parasite. So it was just a simple case of oral medication for them. And the easiest way for me to do. It was to inject the medication into grapes and feed them the gripes. Now, if you've got something more serious going on we may actually have to do a physical catch up for an animal manipulated, hold it and injector and that can be really stressful. So what I'm doing with some of my animals is I am training them to voluntarily take an injection. That is quite stressful for an animal and. They have to build up a lot of trust in you to understand what you're doing. But usually a banana helps what about if it's something more serious, whichever. Intervenes a surgically? Yes, we do frequently. Now, if it's a small animal we have to bring it into the vet room. Little gas mask goes over there over their nose. And then we can do surgery on them with big knockdowns of dangerous animal that just Tigers that we have here or in the past. I've seen knockdowns of chimpanzees happening that actually has to happen for security sake in the animal's enclosure. So the vet will usually dart the animal once the animal is asleep. We all have to be incredibly careful that it really is asleep. There's all sorts of tests that the vet can do and the surgery takes place right there on the ground in the animal's enclosure. Everyone is being very safety conscious. You've usually got a team of people you've got someone watching the door making sure that if the animal wakes up everyone can run out quickly. Once it all is finished. We leave the enclosure the vet reverses the sedative. And then hopefully, everything will be fine. Is there a tension between doing everything you can't help animal and letting nature take its course, sometimes you do have to make a judgment call over Watson the animal's best interests, and what's in its best welfare and USA does happen at zoos, but it's always under the vets advisement. And in cases, where the animal is suffering and has illnesses that are causing pain that are never going to get better again. And we do make those decisions every single time. It breaks your heart, but you can be comforted by the fact that you know, that you actually did make the best decision for that animal. What is what you do here important? What do we keep unim- zoos? What's the purpose of keeping them? Here are yellow breasted captions are representatives of their species. There are only about one hundred eighty five individuals left in the wild along coastal Brazil, and that numbers cleaning every year. It's getting to the point where. That is not a viable breeding population. One hundred eighty five individuals breeding in the wild do not have the genetic diversity to actually be sustainable. So one of the things that zoos do as we do conserve genetic variability now, obviously, we can't just release our captive captions into the wild right now because they'll just be in danger of poaching into forestation at the same way as their wild cousins are, but in the future, we can be maintaining that genetic stock in order to release once we're able to reviled. If humanity ever wakes up and gives us a place to release them into then we can do that. And the red pandas are also very cute many things eve Marin for that one. You're listening to the naked scientists with me Christmas and also with at a Murphy and this week, we're finding out how veterinary medicine can help to improve the lives of humans and animals. Also going to be looking into the question of why some stars appear brighter when you're not looking straight at them. Indeed. Why is that? Now, there's one creature we've left out so far when talking about all the different ways, we can help animals, and that's us humans. So how might veterinary medicine play a role in human health, and I don't mean by going to the vet instead of the doctor? Indeed, I think you'd be slightly worried Francis Hinson if Adam turned up wanted you to treat him Francaise Henson works on the concept of one health, she's from the university of Cambridge. And she's verse what she does this idea of one health main process. Well, one health traditionally was looking as we've mentioned before how diseases of animals transferring to man and the impact that that hassle man so examples of that Tabet Kelly SIS, which we find overseeing cattle transferred to humans in milk. But in recent years, your idea of one health has become a little wider, and it's now starting to include the idea of individual diseases so on particularly interested in joint diseases, and therefore I think many many of these things can be linked one interesting point is that. Although dogs are animals, they share our world. So they very much are exposed to many of the same risk factors that we all if the dog Zona smokes, for example, that becomes a passive smoker. So is that part of what you're advocating actually by studying animals, and humans in a shed context. You can learn from both. Yeah. You certainly can as you quite rightly said don't do share at world and critically. Interesting. Why they both get the same diseases possess and diseases that they don't get so dog in a smoking household very ref dogs to get lung cancer. So trying to understand why that doesn't happen can give us huge amount of information as to why people can get it. The other animal that doesn't go cancer is though, isn't it horses seem to get much less cancer than they should do. We know why? No. We really don't know why they live a long time. People have all good because the vegetarians, and they have high degree of movement that somehow protects them, but we really don't understand that they get very very low incidence of solid tumors. All they seem to get some risk in Kansas. And so people actually actively pursuing that assay. We'll what's different about the horse compared to the horse's owner that wants more likely to succumb to cancer than the other. Well, that is a fantastic idea. Unfortunately, people might want to do that getting funding for specific veteran research is very very difficult. And so searches like yourselves join ranks with other types of scientists and particularly with medicine in order, we can get funds to look at basic diseases rather than relying on veteran refunding as as very poorly suddenly very poorly funded field. But is it a two way street in the sense that because you're saying your teaming up with medics and use that to liberate some funding, but do you then discover things that will then go back into the veterinary clinic to help to. Yeah, we certainly do. So people working on this World, Health agenda really want to have treatments and therapies that can be used for all large mammalian species. So as I said before I'm really interested in joint health, and we heard earlier in the program about people developing. Scaffold put stem cells in but if we can develop those scaffold, and perhaps growth factors potential help those cells grow we can put those cells back into our the human defects in joint Soren skin, or we could put them back into animal defects and skin. So I think if we at the fundamental principles, right? It's equally able to apply those across all the species cynically is that if you do an experiment on a human a it's an ethical nightmare and be is much more risky because they might sue. Whereas isn't element of this that if I do an experiment on a dog, I'm doing it with the best intention, but if it goes wrong, it's over. But it's still a dog is not someone who's gonna turn onto you fits do get sued. But you're quite right. The ethical permissions do experimental work on owned animals with -ffected clinical disease it, sir. You can do that. But we do have to go through lot of ethical frameworks, and we have to get licenses from defa. And so it's not totally straightforward. But potentially it is easier. And if we're looking something that is Lloyd threatening and terminal for these animals, many owners will want us to help them in clinical trials to see if these therapies reflective Vernon's pathologist, and she had a much loved pet dog but developed a very bizarre tumor, and she of course, knows a lot about those sorts of humors. But she she paid a lot of money to a very good vet to do quite radical surgery on her dog and nothing bought him a little bit more time. But at the same time, it's an important learning process because of for that vet seeing that Schumer in that context, it's an opportunity to try to do some surgery, which they might not have the opportunity to do very often. Because it's so costly many owners might decide it's kinder and cheaper to put the dog down. That's very good point many people. It's that real balance isn't the balance what you put that individual animal through to try and get a few more weeks and months and some owners, of course in that situation. They really don't want their dog to be as they perhaps believe it to be experimented opponent, certainly in clinical practice with that see that whole range of opinion for people very very Kane. To go for novel therapies back to write down to people who really don't want to have any part of that an in your research looking at joint and tendon repairs and things what are you doing? And what's the problem trying to solve well from my perspective as an echoing vets? I'm a horse that became very frustrated that we didn't have good treatments authorizes and attentive muscle injuries. And so I really want to try and push through developing new therapies and new treatments. And so I become involved in research project to step back of the underlying principles to be perfectly honest. We don't even know what causes arthritis in people or in humans or dogs or anything on the other animals. We've talked about today. And so my understanding the principles of why we get the disease, we can then perhaps dot devise much, better and more effective therapies and do the disease processes Mira one another does what a human extensively calls arthritis is that the same thing that your average dog in their old age gets and Dolly the sheep was allege. Suffering from it certainly looks like that on rays. It looks the same on MRI scans looks the same. And if you look at those joints under pathological sections, the histology looks exactly the same. So I think they're very similar. And are we learning Francis? From outbreaks that you get in animals that can inform how I manage the human equivalent and be held to or how diseases evolve and change because what happens in groups animals. Yes, we cannot think I'm more interested in ever experience in single individual diseases. But certainly how things behave when we talked earlier in the program about stem cells and using bone marrow device themselves in horses repair, tendon disease, really informed the human practice. And so that's a really good example of how horse therapists have now become quite mainstream in human medicine. So where is this whole Phil going you're saying it's not very well funded, which is a worry given how many animals there are north? And you know, that they outnumber us humans by many four. Partly because we're keeping them to eat, but at the same time visible them, and we move them around as Richard saying. So there are lots of risks while we're not putting more resource into studying this. Well, I think there are many many competitions on research funding. Lots of people have very important projects. They want to get funding, and whilst we may perceive that some areas are very important of the funding bodies may not particularly think that they are more or less important. I think we get headlines get big at breaks of disease, nothing that Kendra further funding son, if individual diseases, the usual remains the rim of the individual disease society such as the authoress societies process. Thanks very much for coming to talk about it. And you're one health initiative process Hanson from the university of Cambridge and thanks for other guesses week, Richard Newton and Luca Botta. A now to finish. We've just got time for question of the week. And Ben McAllister has been looking into this cosmological conundrum from Sean why is it that when you look directly at small stars disappear. But when you look at a point neither you consider them again. Good question. Sean that one left me feeling a bit dim. It. Turns out the answer is all to do with technique known as averted vision at no we aren't talking about what you're supposed to do. If the Queen comes in the room, wet talking about a thing, astronomers have been using for centuries to see distant objects a few people on the naked scientists forum like Colin to be Evan AU and flummoxed all chimed in with helpful onces, which like a guiding star pointed me in the right direction and thanks to Alistair Frith for his very helpful answer by Email, which helped shed some light on the subject naturally. I went and spoke to an astronomer Dr Matt Bothwell to find out more to this is a really good question. I thought so too. Thanks, but the ons Rushdie isn't anything to do with this strong Amee? Oh, it's all to do with. How your is work. There are two kinds of cells in your eyes, which do the job of detecting lights called rods and cones cones gives our color vision. But they need very very bright lights to work, and they don't do very well at all in dim lighter at night. The runs on the other hand are much more sensitive and can't see very well in dim lights. Search rods givers on night vision. So it's all about those pesky rods and cones the fact that cones don't work. Well, in low light is exactly why if you're looking around in the doc, it's very hard to see color and the world appears in gray scale, the colors of light that given object gives off don't actually change based on the time of day. It's just that the road cells in your eyes, which work well in darkness can't really tell the difference between a red and green. Now, the issue that show noticed comes from the fact that the roads and cones aren't just distributed randomly across your retina right in the middle of your retina, the sweet spot of your retina if you like is a patch. Cool the phobia which contains lows in those in those of cones or closely packed together. And this is what gives your shop collision when you're looking straight out something in really nice lighting conditions. The reason you can see it so sharply. It's all these cones together in your phobia. So Matt our strana come. I guess I expert is saying the middle part of your is really. Good at seeing bright colorful things and not so great at seeing dim dunk things. You can do a little experiment. He does he how this works yourself? If you want actually colorblind, you can go ahead and Google Cala blindness test and pull up one that looks appealing. If you look at dead on you should be able to see the different colors pretty clearly because of all of those wonderful cones in the middle part of your eye. But if you look at a point on your screen off to the side, so that you see the test with your peripheral vision, even in good light. You'll probably find it much harder. If you are colorblind. Well, I'm sorry. You're just going to have to take my word for it. Anyway, back to Shawn's question. How does this relate to our ability to see dim objects like stunts, the problem is all these densely packed cones are right in the middle of your retina are the ones that really struggle to see things in dim light. So when you look at something very small and very dim like a star all the lights going to be falling straight on the part of your eye that really struggles to see faint things. So what you have to do. You have to move your is a bit to the sides and the light will be falling on her region with more. Rods which do much better job of seeing the dog. And so you can see the star better. So it's the exact opposite about color blindness test, the side of your eyes might be much worse at seeing colors, but they're much better at seeing faint things. So there you have it, Sean, it's all about understanding the human bodies odd little quirks and using them to our advantage. Thanks to knock them at Bothwell for illuminating that question for us as we were a little bit in the dark. Okay. I'll stop now. Join us next week when we tackle this breathtaking question from Greg in Canberra, Australia, when I exhale why breath contains carbon atoms how long ago with I in my food or drink. So what do you think you can Email Chris the naked scientists dot com? Find us on Facebook tweet at naked scientists or joining the debate on the forum the naked scientists dot com slash forum. Meanwhile, I request if you like the show and you'd like to give us a review, we would really welcome that on whatever podcasting platform. It is that you're listening to us on please post review and give us your thoughts. Also, don't forget we haven't mentioned this for. But we. Are running a fundraiser. And we're asking to try to get to fifty thousand pounds, which is about a third of the cost of running the program by the end of the present broadcasting series, which is this autumn. We were third of the way there which is a spectacular achievement. But it does mean we have a very long way to go. So if you like the program, and you'd like to support us, we would be really grateful for your support. It really doesn't mean to us. Please do visit naked scientists dot com slash donate. We've made it very easy. Very safe very secure to support us either. As a one off contribution Orna monthly basis. You can see on the page. How it a works? Naked onto dot com forward slash donate. We'd really grateful for your help. Thank you. And that is it for this week, thanks to Adam for putting the program together. And do be sure to join us next time when we have a naked scientists QNA in store for you ask the questions we provide the answer. Speaking of which if you have any comments thoughts feedback or questions for our program, you can send them in. Now. It's Chris at the naked scientists. Dot com. The naked scientists comes from Cambridge University and is supported by the EPS or C enrolls, Royce. I'm Chris Smith. Thank you for listening. And until next time goodbye.

caffeine UK Cambridge University Outbreaks hedgehog hospital obesity Chris Smith Richard Newton Adam Perriman Adam cancer Gene university of Bristol US Luca Lata
Unearthed in July, Part 1

Stuff You Missed in History Class

40:28 min | 1 year ago

Unearthed in July, Part 1

"Support for Steffi missed in history class comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by quicken loans finding the right house is not easy but finding the right mortgage can be rocket mortgage is doing more to help you understand the home buying process so you can get exactly what you need because it's not just a mortgage. It's your mortgage and they've found a better way. They make the home buying process work for you. In fact rocket mortgage is there with award-winning client service and support every step of the way visit rocket mortgage dot com slash history sorry class and take the first step toward the home of your dreams equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states nmlsconsumeraccess.org number thirty thirty rocket mortgage by quicken loans push-button. Get mortgage welcome to stuff you missed in history class a production of iheartradio's. How stuff works hello and welcome to the PODCAST? I'm Tracy and I'm Holly Fi. It's time for some unearthed in July <hes> unearthed this is a perpetually growing beast it is if you are new to the show this used to be once a year and then I became twice a year ear and it's when we talk about things that have been literally or figuratively unearthed over the past whatever black of time period it has been for a bit first half of the year second half of the year but this July hi there were so many cool things to talk about way more cool things than even could fit into a two part episode so I put up this poll on our facebook and twitter to ask folks how they would feel about. Maybe having unearthed four times a year or I'm I suppose it could also be three. I don't know regardless in response to a more unearthed. It was an overwhelming yes like approximately ninety percent were in favour of four times a year unearthed so it will either be quarterly or thrice yearly. Maybe we could coincide it with the number of times I get my teeth cleaned. Every year is the calendar basis well and I I didn't think about the possibility ability of doing sort of trimester rat and so literally talking now in my head so everyone's hearing my internal reasoning with that in mind these unearthed episodes are coming out at the end of July but they're really covering January through the end of May because I was just so full up on it at that point so June will roll into next time sometime in the vicinity of late September early October will have another round <hes> and then in December or January. We'll have the last part of the year and then we'll sort of see how that goes regards to next year's scheduling. They may not all be too Parker's. It'll just depend on whether this trend of stuff continues because there was just so much interesting stuff to talk about so today we have a whole lot of updates and connections to previous episodes of the podcast and then we'll move onto some things about neanderthals and early humans and the unearthed books letters and works of art and then next time we will have some the longtime listener favorites like the edibles and potables and of course the shipwrecks who doesn't love a good shipwreck but first we are going to talk about one of my favorite things <hes> the voyage manuscript <hes> we talked about this one on the show in in two thousand fourteen and then we updated that in two thousand seventeen and it has appeared on unearthed previously and in May of this year a flurry of headlines reported that a researcher from the University of Bristol had cracked the Code on the voyage manuscript upped the researcher in question Dr Gerard Cheshire published his paper in the Journal Romance Studies under the title the language in rating system of M._s. four Oh eight Voinovich explained in the paper. He said this work had taken him about two weeks while he was working on his thesis as kind of the first red flag here in a nutshell from the paper is what he says it was all about quote so the manuscript uses a language that arose from a blend of spoken Latin or vulgar Latin and other languages across the Mediterranean during the early medieval period following the collapse of the Roman Empire and subsequently evolved into the many romance languages including Italian for that reason it is is known as Proto Romance Prototype Romance it had long been hypothesized as the logical link between spoken Latin and the Romance Languages but no documented evidence had ever been found before that's the end of the quote he I also concluded that this work was a resource that was produced by Dominican nuns for the use of Maria of castile in his words from press releases surrounding the discovery quote. I experienced a series of Eureka moments followed by a sense of disbelief and excitement when I realized the magnitude of the achievement both in terms of his linguistic importance and the revelation about the origin and content of the manuscript what it reveals is even more amazing than the myths and fantasies his generated it is no exaggeration to say this work represents one of the most important developments to date in romance linguistics almost immediately though linguists and many list got to work debunking this entire thing including various people writing essays in tweets and whatnot about how that's not how romance languages developed and Proto Romance as described in the paper is not a thing various scholars also reported that they had received unsolicited copies of a draft raft of this paper going back to twenty seventeen which is a no no if you were planning to try to submit something to purity journals within two days of that first announcement the University of Bristol had withdrawn its own press release about the paper Br and distance itself from Cheshire saying that this was all his own work and not affiliated with university or its resources in a statement the university also said that it was going to quote seek further validation and allow further discussions both internally and with the journal so to recap every time you see a headline that says someone has decoded the voyage manuscript just mentally ad in the words claims to have in there because it. It happens with some degree of frequency. <hes> we love the voyage manuscript. I honestly don't know at this point. If I want anyone to crack it because I kind of liked it. It's this weird nutty thing but yet but most of the time it it it follows this pattern of like I have figured it out and other people go hold on a minute chief well especially when somebody's like I have figured it out and it took me two weeks or actually did it on the side so also from the land of claims to have the latest news on Amelia earhart very surprisingly to me did not come from the International Group for historic aircraft recovery which is usually who is publicizing various alleged edged Erhard findings in twenty eight team members of a team known as project Blue Angel traveled to Buca in Papua New Guinea to study a possible crash site. They conducted a lot of underwater measurements of what may be her crashed airplane airplane and they also found a flat piece of glass. That might be a lens from a plane in January of this year. These findings made news because they launched a go fund me to pay for another expedition to do further study as is pretty much. That's always the case this story floated around with a lot of they found it type headlines similar to the finish <unk> script but this is still unconfirmed and one of many hypotheses about exactly what happened to Erhard are episode on her disappearance came out in in two thousand nine and that was updated in two thousand twelve and Amelia has also made lots of unearthed appearances yet. It's almost every time thing or at least get now for the Amelia. EARHART segment previous previous hosts of this podcast did episodes on the Bronte family back in two thousand twelve and this year an unidentified woman. At least I have not figured out who exactly she was showed up to antiques roadshow in north Wales with a ring containing a lack of Charlotte Bronte's hair. Everybody involved with looking at it was like I have no reason to doubt that this is what it is. It's this tiny lock of braided hair that fits down into the interior of the ring and the <unk> outer layer of the ring kind of opens up a lid on a hinge the inscription on the inside of the Ring Has Charlotte Bronte's name and the year of her death and that was eighteen fifty five and Dinsdale. WHO's the principal curator of the Bronte Society and Bronte Parsonage Museum implied that museum might be willing to purchase that ring they had sufficient funds? I think the antiques roadshow people were like this is worth. Maybe five thousand pounds but since it's Charlotte Bronte's It's worth twenty two thousand eight. Maybe not pounds maybe euros I don't know I don't remember what the dollar measurement they were. Using right. Shifting gears a little bit a Ram headed sphinx was unearthed in Egypt dating back to King Tut's grandfather other Amenhotep the third it is unfinished and it was found in a carving workshop near Aswan the reasons for its lack of completion or not clear it is possible that it was just basically cancelled order with work on it stopped when Amenhotep died <hes> Amenhotep the third has come up on previous episodes on <hes> King Tut and ships it had that one the last was really recently to move on in May Fulton County Georgia District Attorney Paul Howard announced that he was reopening the case ace into the one thousand nine hundred eighteen murder of Mary fagin which Passos's show covered in twenty eleven. Leo Frank was her supervisor at the National Pencil Company and he was convicted of the crime he was then lynched after his sentence was commuted in nineteen fifteen and in the years since then the general consensus has been that the culprit was really a man named Jim Conley he was a janitor was the prosecution's key witness. There have been several attempts to clear francs name and the decades since this happened. This reexamination is thanks to a newly established conviction integrity unit which will look at previous cases with questionable outcomes and make recommendations to the D._A.. About which may need to be evaluated district attorney's around the U._S. have been creating these units to try to exonerate people who are wrongly convicted and to try to prevent similarly wrongful convictions in the future. A ruling on this particular case is expected sometime next year in another reopened case authorities in Russia have reopened the case into the GATT love pass incident which we talked about on the podcast in October of twenty fourteen. This was a group of students from Your Old Polytechnic Institute who died in Nineteen fifty nine hundred very strange circumstances their their tent was sliced open several of them had head wounds and many of their bodies were found in their underwear and without any shoes on an investigation was opened at the time but it closed after about three months with the disaster attributed to spontaneous detainees power of nature <hes> according to Alexander Curran Oi of the prosecutor's general office the newly reopened investigation is not totally open ended it will try to determine whether their deaths were the result of an avalanche a snow slab or a hurricane so this case was reopened in February and an expedition was planned to the site for shortly thereafter. We haven't gotten updates into any new developments. Since the announcement came yet in one of two thousand fourteen hundred episodes we talked about a nineteenth century winchester rifle that had been found just leaning on a juniper tree in great basin National Park where it had been for who knows how long authorities ultimately determined it had been made in February eighteen eighty two now they've put it through conservation process and giving it a new permanent home in the park visitor center the juniper tree that it had been leaning on was later destroyed unfortunately in a wildfire and in our last update before we take a quick break there is still a lot of discussion discussion happening about the proposed exclamation and reburial of Francisco Franco who we talked about last December initially this exclamation was scheduled for June tenth of this year but in January the prior at the Valley of the fallen where he's buried. It said that he would not allow that to happen. This is a developing story and it would be weird to just leave it at that so here are the latest updates up through the day. Were recording this episode on June. Fourth Spain's supreme tribunal suspended the exhumation summation plans saying that the Franco family had the right to appeal the decision then in July Renzo for teeny who was the Vatican's ambassador to Spain criticize the exclamation plan saying quote honestly there are so many problems in this world and in. Spain why resuscitate him I am saying they have resuscitated Franko leaving him in peace would be better. God will judge him. Remembering something that has provoked a civil war does not help to live better this prompted the Spanish this government to formally complained to the Vatican. That's actually the only exclamation we've got for. These mid year unearthed episodes apart from possible exclamations around the Hartford Circus fire which we recently talked about on a Saturday classic. My exclamation Russian Google alert wasn't particularly productive Jerry through may so maybe there will be more of that later in the year. We've just talked about a lot of things though so we're gonNA take a quick sponsor break before we have even even more updates for weddings and a funeral as a new Hulu original series focusing on the lives of four college friends and they're different relationship and career crises. The price of the wedding aren't the only drama we see Maya breaks up with her boyfriend. Thankfully Ainsley makes a grand gesture to show her support. It's always great helping a friend who's experiencing heartbreak or personal crisis. I really think it just matters how much time intentional time you spend to listen in these moments not the grand gesture everytime that's nice as we watch the show but it's just about the intentional time spent amongst people showing love and support to each other even in the darkest moments catch all a drama in four weddings and a funeral a he knew Rom com series produced by indicating premiering July thirty first only on Hulu not too long ago we replayed a pass episode on Charles Dickens as a Saturday classic that previous episode referenced Him Supporting Two households and previous hosts Sarah and Dobalina hinted that they would talk more about that in a future podcast later on listeners. Ask US whatever happened to that future podcast because it did not apparently exist it turned out that it had never been made just because of a basic lack of information but we were able to find a few tidbits about Dickens having a long term affair with another woman while separated operated from his wife but not divorced from her and basically supporting both of those households. We thought that was probably what Sarah in Dobalina were referring to well University of York Professor John Bowen has combed through a set of ninety documents documents in the Harvard Theatre Collection. It doesn't appear that anyone had carefully gone through our analyze these letters before though and got to them and he wrote about what he found in February these were letters from Edward Dutton Cook who was a neighbor of Charles's estranged wife Katherine Edward and his wife became friends with her and she shared various details about her marriage to Charles Dickens with Edward toward the end of her life. Edward did not keep this information which was pretty personal private he put all kinds of details about it and letters to his friend William Moy Thomas these details included the fact that Dickens apparently tried to have his wife committed to an asylum so that he could carry on this relationship with another woman in Bowen's Owens words quote. This is a stronger and more damning account of Dickens's behavior than any other their drama lives on <hes> an expedition to Antarctica to try to find the remains of Shackleton's ship endurance off early this year but on February fourteenth team announced that they had abandoned the search and they were headed back home to avoid the risk of being trapped by ice. The endurance itself had been crushed by ice in nineteen fifteen. <hes> are episode on Shackleton's race. Just to the South Pole is from way back in twenty ten colleen are not part of that episode not does exist previous hosts also did a podcast on Cahokia back in twenty eleven and in a paper published in proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Sciences. This February researchers documented the connection between human feces from the site and the population of Cahokia and environmental changes that were going on like droughts and floods to do this. They studied sediment layers from horseshoe lake which is adjacent Jason to Cahokia as people defecated in cahokia runoff would have carried their feces to the lake where they became part of the lake bed's layers of sediment and they extracted cores of this sediment to study those layers what they found was that the human waste and the products associated with them and these layers correspondent to known increases and decreases in Cahokia's population and its eventual abandonment around fourteen hundred and they also found connections between all these population and changes and environmental factors like droughts and floods. There's also a new book out on Cahokia. This year called Feeding Cahokia early agriculture in the North American homeland and that's written by Gail Fritz in a press release about the book she was quoted as saying it's clear that the vast majority of Cahokia's farmers were women and it's likely that they're critical knowledge of domesticated crops and wild food plants would have earned them positions of power and respect at every level of society. Yeah that's not the only any new book about coca this year but that one particularly caught my attention because it really is sort of rethinking what has typically been understood about like the stratification of society and Cahokia and and who was that what level professor in University College Cork has examined a sixteenth century administrative manual. That's been passed down through a local family and it turns out that part of the binding of this book is made from a Fifteenth Century Irish his translation of the Canon of medicine by Iban Sina who is more commonly known among English speakers as Azucena it was not at all unusual for book binders to reuse parts of other books in their bindings because Bellum and other bookmaking making materials were very expensive so book binders reclaimed things from old books whenever they could but this particular translation of the Canon of medicine is previously unrecorded in Irish medical history episode from Amazon is from back in two thousand fourteen team. Yes we've ever talked about on the show but one of my jobs that I used to have was working in a College Library Repairing the book collection as needed sixteen circulation and I often encountered things that were made of other books because they had some pieces of the collection that were very old so we <hes> protect those and keeps a record of the history but also again keep it part of a circulating collection so just verifying that that is a hundred percent accurate yeah. When I was when we were in San Francisco went to the book binders museum and had this a guided tour of the book binders museum and that was one of the things they talked about how many things were reclaimed but simultaneously like if you were shaving too much off of the edges of your paper to try to reclaim that and make new paper you could get in big trouble because that was a quality issue right the Guild Yeah <hes> yeah I legitimately this sounds like something I would be saying facetiously legitimately legitimately like the history of bookbinding fascinating even though there aren't there are a lot of like big moments in it? They're just a lot of different practices that shifted over the years that have their own unique flavor in impact on like the way the industry industry worked going forward. <hes> maybe one day we'll do an episode on that. It might be tricky. <hes> previous hosts of the podcast did an episode on Rapa Nui also called Easter Island way back in two thousand eight and then that was updated in two thousand twelve recent research suggests that the island's famous statues may have been intentionally placed near sources of freshwater in this gives a possible reason for why the island statues and shrines are in their particular locations <music>. This research was focused on the western portion of the island and Anthropologists Carl Lipo reported that this proximity to the water wasn't always obvious because freshwater would emerge along the coast when the tide went out was only there sometimes times and it was observing this pattern that they spotted the connection between water would emerge wear these statues and shrines where the team is hoping to expand their research to include the rest of the island as well in other Easter Island News Norway announced a plan to return turn thousands of artifacts including the bones of Rapanui people <hes> those had been removed from the island in the nineteen fifties by thor higher doll and hired all his most known for the expedition aboard kon-tiki which was meant to demonstrate that people from South America could have settled the Polynesian islands. I think I have that Matt Expedition on my ideal list for some point in the future but it's also one of those that every time I get to it I kind of go. I feel like we did it already but I don't think we did. I have done a similar thing with it. I haven't scribbled in a notebook and every time I look at it. I'm like is this to tell me to go back and look at what we did and then I look for it and I can't find him and this is one of the things that comes along with a joining us show after it's been through other hosts and along archive live sometimes with things named in a way that aren't immediately obvious well and to be frank. I mean we've been doing it long enough that they're episodes that we worked on. I think it's come up before where I've been like. I don't remember this at all and you're like you did the research on that. It's easy to keep it all in your head. Unfortunately I anyway. I certainly cannot <hes> back. See some unearth things. This is another previous unearthed follow up in unearthed in July twenty eighteen. We talked about the discovery in Alabama of a ship that was believed to be the clue tilda. The clotilde was the last known ship to carry enslaved Africans to the United States which happened more than fifty years after the U._S.. Had outlawed the import of enslaved Flav people from Africa. The clotilde was burned and sunk in July eighteen sixty after bringing one hundred enslaved Africans to the United States because its owners wanted to destroy the evidence of their crimes. It turned out pretty quickly that the ship in question was is not the right size to be the clue Tilda that was something that we talked about on last year's earth July as well but the potential discovery sparked a lot of interest in trying to find the ship in May marine archaeologists announced that this time they did find find the clue Tilda was located in Alabama Mobile River in that same episode of unearthed in the same passage we also talked about the publication of Zora Neale Hurston barricade which was based on her nineteen twenty-seven interview with the man known as Cajole Lewis he was believed to be the last living survivor of the cler Tilda but that designation shifted this year as well in March Hannah Durkin of Newcastle University published a paper in the Journal slavery an abolition in which she notes that a woman named Rideau she actually lived until nineteen thirty seven. Could you'll Lewis died in nineteen thirty five. That's actually somebody that Zora Neale Hurston also knew about an and wrote about but it wasn't clear the timeline of their deaths until now we talked about bog butter in our butter versus merger and episode in Two Thousand Sixteen. please don't eat bog butter. <hes> and it's also come up on previous editions of unearthed. Now researchers at the University of Bristol and University College Dublin have dated thirty two bog butters from the collection of the National Museum of Ireland. They wanted to find out at this butter was really what we think of as butter made from milk fat or if it was really fat that had come from animal carcasses and turns turns out. It was really dairy butter. This research also suggests that the practice of putting butter in the Boggs goes back about fifteen hundred years earlier than previously thought the oldest sample that they were looking at was from seventeen hundred N._B._C.. It's still not one hundred percent clear whether people were putting the butter in the bog to try to preserve it or if it was some kind of offering it is also totally possible that at some points in history it was about food preservation and other points in history was more symbolic thing they do think that at any given time it was for one purpose and not both still do not eat the bog butter now thank you. We're going to talk next time about eight. People tasting some things that had been. I just want to reiterate that in two thousand sixteen we did an episode on the Crescent Hotel and Norman Baker and this year excavation work at the hotel unearthed more more than four hundred glass bottles and other glass vessels that date back to win the property was Baker Hospital and health resort these bottles appear to have been used to store tumors and other specimens that had been removed from patients preserved in alcohol. All Mike Evans Station assistant archaeologist noted that the bottles that they found looked identical to ones shown in advertisements for the hospital slash resort more than twenty bottles found still contain. What looks like tissue although it is not clear whether? They are real human specimens or if there's some kind of prop it could have been either a subsequent owners of the property after it was this hospital slash resort have been told that all those old specimens had been taken to who the dump they interpreted that as meaning some kind of dump facility elsewhere rather than just being behind the building there are so many <hes> <hes> sort of skin crawley questions yeah <hes> but there it is <hes> we also have a few one cents updates of a collection of random episodes so here we go poems by Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow along with notebooks. Send photos were auctioned off by heritage auctions in Dallas on May fourth the photo of Harriet Tubman as a young woman which we've talked about previously went on display at the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and culture <hes> producer Casey and I got to see that earlier this year Sarah Birmingham executive producer the podcast making gay history unearth previously unaired audio of pass podcast subject fired Reston which became part of the podcast fourth season and the last survivor of the doolittle raid Richard Cole died on April ninth at the age of one hundred three after all of that because that also was a lot we are going to take a quick break and then move onto some non episode update unearthed. Hey I'm andy if you don't know me. It's probably because I'm not famous but I did start a men's grooming company called Harry's the idea for Harry's came out of a frustrating experience. I had buying razor blades. 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We have a collection of things they're all related to neanderthals and early humans and first off archaeologists in northeast Jordan in have found evidence that Neolithic humans might have been hunting with dogs. They came to this conclusion by studying the dog's presence at an archaeological site known as Shubais quit six and that dates back to about eleven thousand years ago the dogs seem to have been kept in an area mostly around the edges of the settlement but also were just allowed to roam around through everything the inhabitants of shake was six used hares for food and use their bones to make beads and there's an uptick pick in how many hairs were present at the site which coincides with when the dogs got there so the teams conclusion is that either people were using dogs to help them hunt hares or perhaps the people in dogs were hunting hares together with the people using the dogs hunting eating patterns to help their own hunt and other news modern day javelin throwers have helped a team of researchers look into whether neanderthals had the ability to throw spears to hunt large animals from a distance the a team from University College London Made Replicas Spears using hand tools that were modeled after hand tools used at the time. The models for the spears were a set of ten well preserved throwing spears that had been excavated in the nineteen ninety s six javelin avalon athletes took their turns with these throwing spears and we're able to hit a target from up to twenty meters away which was twice as far as the researchers thought they could be thrown in this all adds to the growing body of evidence that neanderthals were probably a lot smarter and more adept than they have generally been given credit for now we have just had a series of neanderthal related things over the years which I'll kind of contradict the perception that that that maybe they were stereotypical cavemen right now when someone uses that word as an attempted slurred or insult someone can come back. It's like yes my javelin skills are on point on that that same notes according to research that was published in science advances both neanderthals and early humans were probably pretty good at hunting small fast moving game. They came to this conclusion by studying animal bones in what is now southeastern France France it was already pretty well established that these populations hunted larger often slower moving animals like deer Bison and horse but it also looks like they were able to hunt rabbits which might have helped him survive when larger game was more scarce and it was kind of connects back over to the dogs and hairs being are the dogs helping with the hair hunting which is more about early humans than about neanderthals so moving on to the art books and letters in January wary. The New Yorker reported on a lost story by Sylvia plath which plath wrote in nineteen fifty two while attending Smith College however the Indiana University Lilly library had a different take on this report port in a short twitter thread. They explained that this story was in their collections and listed in the finding aid thread ended with quote in parentheses whispers you know when materials are are in libraries and archives they are actually the opposite of lost also in the it was there in the library but in this case it actually was kind of lost <hes> territory Michael Richardson Jason of the University of Bristol Special Collections Library found a set of thirteenth century old French Parchments Tucked into some sixteenth century books these texts include lots of names from our theory and legends and they're believed to be part tailgates cycle or Lancelot grail cycle which was Thomas Malary's likely sources for Libor d'arthur they knew about these sixteenth century books but were surprised at the Thirteenth Century Inclusion and the books that the fragments were found in have their own. History as well they are a four volume set of works by French poet and reformer John Gadgil the pages were printed in Strasbourg sometime between fourteen ninety four in fifteen o two and then they were bound in England sometime in the sixteenth century. There's thirteenth century fragments were bound along with them. In one of the findings that a lot of folks told us about <hes> researchers studied the remains of an unknown woman buried in Germany about one thousand years ago and found flex of Lapis Lazuli pigment in in her teeth logical conclusion she was an artist who worked in manuscript illuminations and used her mouth to make the tip of her brush have a fine point another logical conclusion. She must have been very good at her work because Lapis Lazuli pigment known his aquamarine was extremely expensive and really hard to get so the people that were eliminating those manuscripts were not all monks as has often been popularly imagined and other news Leonardo Davinci's thumbprints has been found on a drawing called the cardiovascular system and principal organs of a woman which was drawn in fifteen nine that work is in Britain's royal collection and the ink from the thumbprint matches the ink from the drawing so they think just picked up the page page with inky hands Alan Donna Thorne who is a former paper conservator at the collection called the collections quote most convincing candidate for an authentic Leonardo fingerprints another gear switch the practice of writing and Japan may have developed between three hundred and four hundred years earlier than previously thought this is based on the discovery of ink stones. Some of them unfinished that date back to the second for centuries B C. E previously writing was believed to have been brought to Japan from China in roughly the third century CE. These ink stones were probably also introduced from China. It's believed that they were first developed in China around three hundred B._C.. Before being carried to Japan and then the earliest Japanese made ink Stones Jones would have probably been copied from these Chinese stones before Japanese craftspeople develop their own designs and methods in May the conservation charity English heritage announced that a painting long believed to be a fake based on Botticelli's Madonna of the pomegranate. It was actually a real botticelli. It was thought to be a fake because of variations in the painting itself and in the yellow pigments used to paint it but after x Ray testing infrared studies and pigment analysis researchers have concluded that the painting really was created in Botticelli's workshop in Florence although it was not necessarily exclusively his work yeah it was totally normal for a painter to create multiple copies of the same thing especially if it was a commission Russian yeah but everybody thought this one was fake for a long time. We have a random thing to just close out part one of unearthed today and that's that archaeologists working ahead of a new high-speed rail line have unearthed the burial site of Matthew You flinders who was the first Europeans you circumnavigate the continent of Australia. He died in eighteen fourteen and this line that he was unearthed a to make way for is going to run from London to Birmingham. The construction has involved just a massive archaeological project with sixty different dig sites along the length of the route flinders was known to be buried at Saint James's cemetery behind Houston station but the cemetery also contained forty thousand bodies and only some of the graves were being excavated waited so authorities weren't all that optimistic that they were gonna find his grave site. It turned out that's lenders. Coffin was marked with a lead plate. There was still legible found it pretty quickly it turned out and as a side note there is always a lot of train line and other construction related unearthing going on and so far this year we've also read reports of a Fourth Century Public Fountain being unearthed Steering Rail Construction and the Thessaloniki Metro and a Roman cemetery cemetery unearthed during work for a tram extension route in Strasbourg and we'll have more next time more things that are a whole other categories. Have you enter some mail for us. I have unearthed the mail it's from Shannon. Shannon has is written about Marie Lawrence and Shannon says I listened to your podcast in the car on my daily commute and when Tracy described her reaction to seeing the Mari Lawrenson paintings at the Musee delory. I knew exactly what she was talking about because I had the the exact same experience when I was in Paris in January. I knew it had to be the same painter when I got home. I pulled up my photos. I've attached my favourite Lawrence from the orangerie portrait de Madame Poll Yom although it's not nearly as good what is the professional ones and sure enough. It was the same painter I take photos of items. I'm drawn museum so I can go back and learn more about them later but I haven't gotten back to this one yet. I was fascinated to hear about Marie laurencin and her life. I was especially interested interested to hear that she was part of the early cubist movement. I generally don't enjoy cubism mostly because Picasso was a misogynist and the Gusto he shows and breaking women up into pieces always makes me so mad anyway I found her work really drew me in and I stayed there a longtime looking at her paintings the attached in particular thank you so much for reminding me about these paintings and giving me some insight into the artist as always love how Sasser you ladies are Shannon. Thank you so much Shannon. I just wanted to read this because I always love. When I find a kindred good spirit in our listener mail? We've similarly was like I'm here for these paintings. If you would like to write to us about this or any other podcast where it history podcast that how stuff works dot com and then we're all over social media at missed in history and that spot where you'll find our facebook pinterest instagram and twitter you can come to our website which has missed in history dot com where you'll find the show notes for all the episodes that holly and I have ever worked on the show notes for this episode includes the links to the original sources sources were everything we have talked about this time and next time is a very long list. You can also find a searchable archive at our website for every episode we have ever done and if you click on lab shows up at the top of the page Oliver upcoming live shows and tour so he can do all that at our website and you can subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts the iheartradio APP or wherever you get your podcast stuffy he missed in history classes a production of iheartradio's. How stuff works for more podcasts for my heart radio visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows I'm Danish warts and?

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AMT369: New Year's resolutions, gilets, and McDonald's mayonnaise

Answer Me This!

46:20 min | 2 years ago

AMT369: New Year's resolutions, gilets, and McDonald's mayonnaise

"How much was in Greg sausage rolls in the first place. Why did the big for like chantilly lace? Happy new year, Helen and happy birthday onto me. This twelve years old twelve years old twelve years old up. Nearly how will your crackers this Christmas Helen trimbe balls in them yet you pull the full set and you get an operative of blockage. Bill out of it. China's I thought you said dime. Baas now that would have been better 'cause dime balls. Don't make a noise whereas glaucous Bill plus four children that is allowed several hours. What is it with grownups? Not knowing not to give children young children musically. I did this the other day I went to lunch with her and Harvey. And she did that thing that grandparents do which is quite sweet, really suppose, I guess it's their role. But it's a bitter dating of just buying him. A toy for no reason at all on the way into the restaurant as she could present him. It's just so she can be his favorite person yet. And I guess it works not bribery works with three year olds. But she she reached into the bag and I saw the poor patrol logo. Don't do it. Now, don't do it now. Because if you do it now, he's not gonna we is lunch. Let me is lunch. And when he goes into the post ice cream coma. That's when you can reach in the bag if you really insist so we got to the post ice cream slump. He started to like roll around on the floor and poke the women in the next table in the eye, and I said to mom right now. Now is the time to give him the pointless toy if you're insist so she reached into the bag and berry mind, we're in a restaurant where other people are trying to eat the things she bought him was a flute oh poor patrol bonded fleet. Since when the dogs play the flute. It's a strategy fought have a dog who is a firefighter who was plays the flute. No. It's a brand extension. Mawson is like having let me think of an example from your life that you'd understand Tom waits branded shot glass and breakfast plate. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. I reckon. I know why grandparents give children noisy toys, not only for parity. But also because some of the edges of their hearing may have been rubbed off. I think Searcy that might be or it's been. So long since they had to do the hands on stuff. They've actually forgotten what it sounds like to hear child blowing on a plastic recorder. But it doesn't take long for you to remember that that is the very definition of how that sounds shrill. It was tough. It wasn't just a flu. It was a set with little temporary percussion as well. Why goes why a seasonal question comes from Liz at who says Jalan to me this where did New Year's resolutions originate? Does anyone ever stick to them not the majority? Do you have stats on that actually a two thousand and seven study from the university of Bristol of three thousand people showed that eighty eight percent of people fail than years resolutions. But you're still gather ten times more likely to succeed with the New Year's resolution than a resolution made it another time of year. Okay. That's both kind of motivating depressing people guessing. Yeah, why both trying anything? But he's a natural thing is new as the year turns around to think back across the year and to think to the year ahead. It is common to. Of cultures. You can trace news resolutions back four thousand years to the bologna nes where the start of the year that would promise gold's that. They would return borrowed things and pay off debts. Although that new year was in mid modules part of twelve day festival. They would also reaffirm loyalty to the king of clearing up business on you. I suppose the queen's Christmas messages over different reaffirming loyalty to the king is it. I mean that is for most people that's the one time of year. They see has speak. I've never seen it. What? Yeah. Even clip on the news. I I've seen visual. I just don't care. Well, anyway, I I do watch the speech, and it was a boring example, even by her standards. She doesn't give a shit anymore. She well, what was really obvious was that. She'd obviously said I called people that think of ten minutes this year, just Chuck in some children. And there was three minutes at the end, which was just, you know, Christmas choir like kids singing silent night. Oh, that's the was aren't gonna didn't. It was a bit of padding like her inspecting a military troop or something or a family photo something that goes on for bit longer than it should to fill the time. But that was clearly three minutes. She couldn't be fucked to think of channels done dozens of these fucking things to be we've done hundreds of theme songs, and we don't a children's choir when things are getting a bit slow. Yeah. When you hear us do a square space out for the children's, quiet. Runoff inspiration. Anyway, the balloons them, and then the Romans had them January is named after John Lewis. The two faced gold who looked backwards and forwards so into the previous year and head into the new I thought it was a month. She deserves it. She did a good job not the Eurovision. So at that time as in the song by Craig Phillips, winner of big brother series one. The Romans were reflective and they offered sacrifices to go jenness, and they made promises of good behavior for the coming year until it continued. I'm actually someone who naturally does do that. Because it's something that I feel instinctively is not because of other people doing it. I'm someone who naturally resets in January. I often well at one of the reasons that we started this show twelve years ago in January was I can't remember it was suggested it, but certainly it's typical of me to say let's start a new project at the turn of the year. It just feels natural to me to try something new. So I do tend to spend most of my December's thinking what can I do differently in the year ahead? And I guess my New Year's resolution for the your head is actually the same as the one. The beginning of twenty which is a little bit pressing really because it's an admission that I failed, obviously. But it's basically slow down. Don't do so much. I think once speed up. Well, it's difficult because Helen I know that you like me enjoy. No, even enjoy that's one word can only basically work with the deadline imminent. Hell, yeah. And so there's a usefulness that comes from the energy and adrenaline. But also, I just don't like I don't need that in my life. I've rather have time to do stuff. Don't be so short with people. Don't like read Twitter, whilst I'm having a piss, you know, just slow the pace of my life down us one of my few pleasures in life. The most common reason for people failing to keep their news resolution is that they set themselves unrealistic goals, and then the one of the next most popular reasons is that they just forgot about the resolution, but apparently a specific goal is more likely to succeed. So if you said, I want to save more money that is less likely to succeed than if you say on a save one hundred pounds a month. Yes. And then you keep track of your expenditure using an apple writing everything down. If specific goal was don't look at Twitter Muslim having a piss just that one rather than generally slow down. Offer is terrible. I have actually kept to news resolutions. The remember I'm still keeping them from a few years ago. When I resolved to read more. So it started keeping a spreadsheet soccer. Did isn't it is it? Yes, Aqaba was like this year. I'm gonna read a book week. Oh, ever because he had the incentive of putting on Facebook. He's he stuck to it as well. Right. Doc about this young to invade your privacy for more. And I've got a spreadsheet with all the ways how. I knew I've read this year. The most books I've read since only begun the spreadsheet in twenty eleven partly because I was in hospital with nothing to do for. That's a resolution to do something that you do enjoy the opposite of the keep fit resolution, isn't it? Actually, I'm going to have more time to do something that I want to do and the other thing was not to click on melon line links. And I've kept that for many years. So would recommend that that is easy to do. You think gee, think casual internet browsing, it's homeless and. Yeah that making money. What would you do if someone quoted you in a male online article? Would you look to see what you'd said couldn't resolution? What if what if someone tweeted you and said, hey, when you won't believe what mail online have written about you link. I'd say can you send me screen grub? So I don't break my twenty thirteen resolution or whenever I made it. But then they're clicking on the link to make the screengrabs mean that result is still one more sale. But I suppose they've already click. It's not a new cookie. Yeah. You could probably like opened incognito browser or some shit. But I mean, it's. Incognito to me, the resolution keeper. My name is Anthony I'm currently living in London, but just moved here from mistrial. I'm a longtime listener of the podcast. And my question is this years ago? You guys were talking about you'll parents fashion choices and one of you mentioned that you'll father bought a G allay and wore that essentially for the rest of their lives. The fuck is Ye lay I don't even know how to spell it to Google it you help me out here. This been bothering me for years. Thanks a like he spent such a long time being bothered by himself before bothering us. But it I mean years ago, we talked about that. It was me. It was my dad his trademark look was assigned color. Yes, he visited Abro chip and on a Republican Beverly Hills and his entire wardrobe for the next thirty years in essentially one or two trips Antony we can put these years of worry at rest firstly Geely is spelled G. I L E. It's a word from French. And it means a potted sleeveless garment, which would be very useful to you as an Australian experiencing British winter that's interesting because I assumed that the defining characteristic was it sleeveless nece indefinite of G league. How did you know if you I mean, this has become a topical word again? Thanks to this leisure in France. They. They protesting a wearing roadside assistance type g lays, which I see Mon padded that just Neil Nutley, thin material. Well, but I still cosily as imported from French into English is basically padded sleeveless garment body warmers. We're called body woman's when we were younger, but I'd imagine the call G lays it sounds most fisted in France, the word has been around for a long time in the nineteenth century. It was a decorative waistcoat. And so it just means waistcoat in other places. But here we would say waistcoat, if you meant something that was non padded and sleeveless you say so. The English speaking world things of g layers padded and sleeveless, but in France, just leave 'less. Yeah. Like in Britain that used to call the jerkin backing olden times it technically the one that my dad used to wear was called a hooded Bush vest. Didn't know how to hood it didn't. I don't know why it was called that. Because you're right. It wasn't hooded. But it I found this out because I was curious about this shop in Beverly Hills that I went to with my dad this Brown shipping on Republic because it was so different to what banana Republic has become as brand internationally man, which is kind of sleek and bland, basically, and I remember that it was like jungle themed and had giant life sized giraffes in it may have plastic. Wow. That is that the same company looked into it. And it was originally when banana Republic was formed, they sold repurpose military, costumes. So they had like Isreaeli paratrooper knapsacks and stuff hence the name banana Republic. It was like arm. It could people forget, but there was like a safari army trend in the eighties like Indiana. Zones and romancing the stone and the hooded Bush vest was part of their original lineup of clothes. So this is like people who are fans of the original banana Republic before it got bought by gap intended, something else there like websites dedicated to the GI that my dad war as like an a fashion icon, which is hilarious addin in Yorkshire asks only onto meet this men as packets at McDonald's. Why is it not a thing? Why God why? Why it's outrageous. It's in the fucking secret sauce. It's own the flipping mcchicken sandwich. The places drenched in mayonnaise. And yet you cannot get Moniz. It doesn't make any sense. How is this such a popular restaurant chain when they've deprived you like this? I find it absolutely baffling. They sell it. By the way in France. Mcdonalds in Spain McDonald's, and import trickle McDonald's you can go in and you can get a nice, but not in British McDonald's. Why? Well, I do know the answer I council. Okay. Why is really dull? Okay. That's what I was expecting. A muc spokesperson at told cosmopolitan who lost looked into this, quote, what we offer in our restaurants is based on customer demand. We don't currently have any plans for mayonnaise to be made available. How would you know because in Britain people? Be too polite to say gimme Monet's when it's being offered. Well, there is a change to org petition to bring men is McDonald's highly effective only and that's had one thousand eight hundred twenty four signatures, which I think qualifies piss poor. I mean. I mean as usual McDonald's, probably got it. Right. I mean, probably tell audience don't care, but I am telling you now McDonald's that I would go that twice as often. Like at the moment. I basically only go if I'm with my my toddler, and he wants McDonald's, or if there is no other choice does he like manny's as a nearly three year old is into the? Yes, he does. He's a man as in. You can take the mayonnaise out of the boy. But you can't. Yes. He does. You can't spell men as without mine. I bet you get that a lot. You can spell mayo though without man. But why would he just think I would sometimes perhaps? Well, no, I wouldn't I'm lying to myself Ellen. I was about to say I would choose McDonald's over Burger King if they sold Anees because burger does but I wouldn't cause Boqing slowly better. So the only scenarios in which I'm in McDonald's I'd be there. Anyway, what do you just take your O'Malley's? I she me keep a jar in the car. Keep jar in the condom pocket of my jeans. Apparently the tape is if you like me really want mayonnaise when you go to McDonald's because obviously the tip is if you ask nicely certain muc employees will fill a Sunday top as in S U N NDA with an ice for you. It's by no means certain. But if you ask nicely they have the they have mayonnaise. It's just not in little portions that they can put through the till? But I have it for the chicken sandwich. So you can say can you put that mcchicken mayo into the Sunday top, wink. Also, what's weird is the sources that they do have available. If the reason is customer damone doesn't want mayonnaise like just customer damone really one like 'cause obviously do barbecue Fahrenheit until you put it in front of them. Exactly. Because one of them is that we'd so of course, I Chinese one isn't sweet and sour like how many people really say. Oh, yeah. Fries. Weeden sandwich source, please. I just can't believe that's more popular than mayonnaise. I think there's gonna be some dot conspiracy. Here early. They usually is it'd be so easy for them to do it. Or at least to do a trial to see how much customer demaim there any was as a classic condiment to have with chips a thing that they sell. So I think that deliberately withholding it for. Why couldn't say it makes me I'm so sorry. Bring this painful subject up. So I I mean, I'm glad to have an opportunity to speak about it. I mean if I ever met face to face the person who's decision it was to withhold mayonnaise from sale. Mcdonald's pick them up by the SCRUFF of the neck, and then cry right into their mouth. Now. I want to sit down and really understand where they're coming from like, I I can't comprehend that worldview. John. Question. John. Done for question from Helen in Oxford. What you back in your university. I met you telling traveling, no. And she says. Why do you keep hanging out with me? I've made it quite clear. I see you only as a colleague would you can watch neighbors in your room this lunchtime. Would you rather be a butcher a Baker or candlestick maker? I quite like to be a Baker and okay? Well, hold on before before you answer the question. We should actually explain the context for for those international listeners unfamiliar with the Rhine rubber dub dub, the current version of rub it up. Well, the remix by dubs. Oh my God. I'm surprised that's not happened. The common version that we grew up with was rubbed up three men in a tub. And who do you think they be the butcher, the Baker the candlestick maker and all of them out to see however that is a version as sanitized in the Victorian era because the rhyme in its earlier form from the fifteenth century was rubbed up dub three maids in tub. And who do you think with the butcher, the Baker the candlestick maker and all of them onto the fair? Oh my God. How risk is that? I feel sullied just by hearing that let me break it down three maids in tub. The tub was a strip show or peepshow was an attraction travelling fair, and those three professionals will watching it and being shamed. Watching it by the Rhine. So it's basically saying you'll never guess ugly. Naked ladies these respectable professionals yet. Right. So it's like saying rubber dub dub who's on porn hub. It's only the social. Brand manager. I don't think the robot dub means that. They are rubbing one out whilst the show. I think the rubber dub dub was kind of top top analog. Yes. Yeah. But the point is you'll never guess who's looking yet. Right. And so the Victorian Sonatine version, I think is just trying to make it like a nonsense song where these three people are in a tub, which was about an floating out to sea fine. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, that's that's where we get this grouping. The English people are aware of butcher Baker candlestick maker. I've never given it any before. So thank you for enlightening me already know even in the same union, those three professions happening different buildings not even on the same highstreet these days. Yeah. But okay. So to return to your answer choices. Okay, butcher. I'm going to say, no. That is a difficult profession. I I've known butchers and they have a lot of scars from flying bone chips. Yes. I don't think I would enjoy being around the smell of raw meat all day account justify environmentally Baker. Sometimes do think about that. But. Very early mornings when you say sometimes you think about what like serious backup plan frivolous backup plan because I know that it's actually a hard job that I would probably suck out because at enjoy making bread and stuff by don't think big enough Baker for the great British bake off error of baking candlestick maker. I think that would be the one because daylight making things, and I'm more interested in Campbell sticks than I am in candles with don't particularly like. And of course, you following on in the parental tradition of being sculpture of some kind that makes sculptures out of whack. So you could say that they are expensive candles that cost several thousand pounds. But don't burn them. I think I would go sick makers well because actually leaving the side the lifestyle element. We've spoken before on the show about the BG rise of scented candles, but actually the sticks. Haven't changed a great deal in the low century have they there's not the same range of sticks as there are candles themselves. You think I think there's a tremendous visual variety in KENDALL sticks. Really really where where is this tremendous visual variety? Helen, I don't see it. Well, some of them Twitter some of the minimum some of them are concrete. It can get a lot of fuzzy manures, but these are not disruptors Helen who's who's gonna come along and do the candlestick for the twenty th century. That's what I'm saying disrupted, the candlestick fucking proper lines lamps candles candles, basically the same. It's just that. It's not a beef anymore. Nonetheless. I think there's probably like if you did it, right? If you've got the website, you know, candle stick. It could be that. If the candlesticks trendy people by the kennel and having handled to put in them, then they have to buy candle then the candle Mike is like oh my God. We've got to keep up with Kendall's. Don't stakes from a long line of putsches. That's true to skip a generation with you. Well, my dad never enjoyed being Butch let my dad's inherited with his sister, the butcher shop from his father, which is still open now in a family business in Louis, man and son, go check it out if you're in the area, they excellent lever. My dad never enjoyed working there. Really? I mean, I think he enjoyed being with his family. I think enjoyed a bit of the lifestyle like owning Bing part for family business because it meant the guy on the evenings and chooses nine hours to extend, but you have to be very very early in the mornings ago to the meat market as you say everything's stinks of meat, even though he was at the level where I don't think he was literally putting his hand up chickens. You know, he they there are butchers onsite who do the actual butchering. He was in the butchery business, and that involves handling of raw meat talking to the general public about role meats. And I don't think it was something that ever really appealed to him. And that's why he started his business selling vintage cars out the back of the butcher shop. So. Free sausages. If you bought the Bentley. Think about buying a Bentley. If you've got some triple otas, you could just buy some sausages. It was it was made very clear to me that he didn't see his time as a butcher in the most positive way. So it never really peeled to me. Although I do actually quite like the idea of providing a need. I mean, that's the thing about the only thing I think the butcher and Baker have over candlestick. My candlestick maker. I think is the business case. Now Baker I think is a bit dumb. Like, everyone wants to be a Baker everyone starts up cupcake businesses and stuff, but like, obviously so can work, but I think Butch and Baker at least people always hungry people are hungry. So at least it's a thing people won't. And if you go together, then you can make bacon sandwiches. Not the kosher butcher. Exactly. From centuries. Remember, I wonder whether anyone playing on the popularity of this riddle over centuries has created a shop concept, which is housing three under the same roof, basically borough market. Yes, sure. But that's also includes other things like, you know, freshly ground coffee, but what if the shop just sold meat breads and candlesticks, but I think the conflict you have if you've got the smell of raw meat and a scented candle. Yes. Which sent is going to win because the nicest smell of all of those. I think is the fresh baked goods. Yes. I think I mean various shops pumping the scent of bread Doug to disguise the horrible, smells that are actually going on where subway pumps in more horrible smell than the food would create on its own. In the nineties. I had twelve percent web team to build from white wet type Sander ran is my tech dream than the dot com. Bubble burst. And I had to drown them in a stream lighted and tied to suck them. But now, thanks to things you can do it alone and build a lovely website full-time blet smartphone. Enjoy now coz in ten years, you'll be replaced by drone just like Terminator three. This update is sponsored by squarespace, your one stop shop to create and maintain your own website. And if you've got a promotion running on that website, what you have created you can tell people about that promotion really easily by creating a pup non-irritating one. Well, but like a nice one. That's like, hey, get ten percent off. Oh, hey, check out on you thing. Right. And it's really easy to do. So you go to my snazzy website dot com yet. And it's like, hey for this month, only, you can save ten percent on my snazzy websites special snazzy snacks. Yeah. And then you have to dismiss it. If you don't want is that what you're talking about. Yeah. Or you can do announcement bar at the top which is a bit more along. So that's like gas house now Z we are like either one hundred percent anyway. Yeah. It's it's a nice little feature that because in real life when you're using other people's websites you obviously don't want promotional pop-ups. But when you're in your own website, you wanna get in people's faces with your stuff, and they make it really. Really easy for you to do that. And then when the promotion ends ten the pope up off. There are many many functions of squarespace website one thing I like is that you can check how it's looking on desktop and tablet and phone from the same place. Yeah. Just by switching between different views say done, some pretty sweet layout business for desktop unless just check, but it's not a hot dog shit or mobile. You can't just check in a click, and if you want to create your own squarespace website. And after this talk up, frankly, who wouldn't you can get ten percent off your first purchase of a website or Demane by going to squarespace dot com slash answer. And using our discount code answer question from Johnny who says at jalenandjacoby this why is it called the Edgeware road? I mean, he means why is the road. Cool the road not his pet name for the part of his body. Who knows who knows? His rectum the expert. With lots at the end is on the Brown line. I can't remember why is it called the Edgeware road, but not the region St. or the bond street, that's the point. I've never thought about that before. Well, I think like that like the county road in Oxford where we both used to live. And I think that is a thing that informally comes up when the road is named after a place. Yes, I was thinking this. 'cause like the road is also the harrowed in London. So roads going to a place, whereas Regent Street and bond street and not named after places to the prince regent, and what bond street streets named after named after Michael bonds landowner Thomas bond, he developed that area in the sixteen hundreds. So it gets fancy street, but how did he like his MARTINI? He liked it incredibly expensive and built over farmland. And also Edgeware road is a neighborhood. So you may be Edgeware road. When you're naming the road. But you'd say the Edgeware road if you're like, oh, it's up around the Edgeware road. You mean that neighborhood was a Regent Street and ry on really neighborhoods and even offered street not really neighborhood. But does the Edgeware or Edgeware road? Go will the white which where it goes all the way to Holyhead in Wales. It's well it's part of what link street, but is it still cold Edgeware road? When it gets to Edgewood. Yes, he's still gonna get statuary. And then you're right. Yes. I suppose it's could walling street roundabout Rattlers, and Albans isn't what it's called between wear and there it's just like a series of roundabouts mini golf places because Oxford Street is definitely not go. Look at street all the way to Oxford true. This is Philip from Lynn Helen only on some of this who takes into grandma's photos for them. Do they have friends who like Vida's just to take photos all day or go, friends and boyfriends who for them and don't mind? Yeah. So who takes I mean, it sounds awful. So who takes Instagram photos? I mean, there is many different Instagram as they're all people in the world. I mean, but there there are a lot. So it's hard to generalize. I imagine. Yes. As a a huge diversity of different ways. People take their Instagram photos. Somebody who is an Instagram fashion east. She gets her boyfriend to take photos, and she says most bloggers do and what she does is take pictures of several different outfits at once which takes half a day. And then each day you'll post one is if it was just taken yet. Because that's the weird thing about in scrim, isn't it because it actually even in the way that was designed I actually hardly ever use it. But I did actually interview the guy who invented he's make book gouging about technology. So it's talking to pass it and it was designed. So that you couldn't store a photo. And then up loaded initially, it's different now. But it was all about basically taking the pictures through the app and uploading incident. It was very much about. This is what I'm doing now. And the way it's designed still it kind of suggests is what happens now, except it's obviously so heavily edited. And curated by the people that posting to isn't it? And also, my soul said that an awful lot of the fashion easter's borough of the clothes, they don't own them. So they get a variety of outfit, but they're not actually wearing that around all day. They'll be lent it by a fashion show room. It's a weird world, isn't it? I mean, it's not weird then being a model in the old days and being employed, by fashion magazines, posted a photo wearing an outfit, but it just the the people, self publish. It is just it feels odd. It is different to that. Because you all effectively the magazine yourself. Yeah. And the Steiner's, I I suppose it's just cutting out a lot of the distribution mechanisms editorial mechanisms. But then her boyfriend does that, but she she spends half. So he's in a professional studio. It's street photography, right? And like their certain walls Brooklyn that will crop up in a lot of different people's photos. If they're like a particularly good color where the outfit popes or they've got an interesting mural that doesn't compete with your outfit armed watching an episode of the Kardashians. When I say watching I mean absorbing because I was in the same room as it happening when my wife was watching it, and there was a scene where one of them. I don't know was it came probably got to Japan, I think and then was basically in her stretch limo chaperone thing driven to a wall in the city. So that she could do a street scene thing wearing her clothes that she needed to put Instagram literally got out the car with a camera crew from e took the picture next to the Wall Street scene on a mobile phone and then got back in the car. So I mean, it was like a heavily produced. Tin arised dire is showbiz event. But it had to look like a street seat. You couldn't simulate it in the studio. Helen, Ali and Martina sound, man. Its new CEO from Coventry on to me this who designed the orange boss kit bowl the person in question is apparently Tony Hinkle who was a coach at Butler university in Indiana for nearly fifty years the basketball's used to be Brown and Hinkel the color was difficult for the players to see and also difficult for the funds to see. So he thought let's make the ball a color that anyone near the basketball cook and easily see make orange and in nineteen fifty seven he on the Spalding company that make balls developed a new boss get ball and the orange colored ball made its debut in the nineteen Fifty-eight NCAA finals in Louisville Kentucky. So you I would have thought maybe it was because orange was closer to the natural color of rubber or wherever they make the balls use a dial, obviously. But I thought it would be easier to achieve than pink. For example, is that nothing to do with it. I thought that only a minor in Consett, and yet Coney and Cole was driven by a different car to ideas. I like the idea of making it so that the whole audience can see it's a bit like the Queen wearing bright pastel colors. Isn't it? Oh, she knows what she's doing doesn't. She some point hat as you know. I hate sports of all kinds. But if I was ever going to be a professional sportsman. And tell me a small if. I think I'd put in number one. But basketball, number two. I think I don't hate basketball dot says a lot of mats. Are you? Sure. You're ready yet. I'm not saying I'd be good at it. I'm saying if I had a choice if someone made me being sportsman I say, okay, I'll try does. And then second place possible right now bobsleigh because you just have to sit in the bobsleigh, but actually feel more confident that I could be a basketball player now 'cause I interviewed a man with dwarfism recently. And he told me he was a really enthusiastic basketball player in his teens. And that's what he wanted to do professionally, and I said of all the sports like, surely, that's the one where you have to be all, isn't it? And he said that's a massive misconception. There's there's there is obviously if you're the person she hoops, you probably do have to. But as a position you can play. I can't remember which because not interested in sport. Where it doesn't matter. It's all about passing to other people being the fly boy, or whatever they call it flying. I'd be that. I'd be that. So because I am tool, but I'm not basketball players shoulder. I do now. But you know, maybe if I was nineteen and I started out my career. It would be a shoulder strong as an oaks have strong shoulders that annoys you do. Yeah. See me officials is so strong. You wouldn't dissipated. One falling on the way to ski lesson now fence. Have you ever played basketball in any form? I guess as a goal growing up in England. It would have been net. Yeah. Play netball, which is like basketball boot, very very still and you're not allowed to Rome with the ball. And you're not allowed to go into entirety of the court. Right. So I mean, I know the whole kind of gender sports thing is a bit anyway, but why is netball outside and basketball's in never understood that let the boys at my school playing basketball the girls who played netball MacGill's were outside in the winter. What's that sadism? That's what it is doesn't make any sense. Does it? I'm sure it does. They must be as reason. But it feels weird because people practice basketball outdoors, don't they like in father of the bride that possible hoop outside in that push house. See I've seen basketball listeners. I just don't understand sport there in the video for baby. One more time. How is it possible? In that ball, third the. Teach comes in looks very close to my house that somebody could song stunning. So will happen. Yes. She's she is bouncing the iconic orange basketball, Tom, Frederick, inks, whatever his name was tiny Hinkle. Tony wasn't Tony something completely unrelated. But apart he loved to eat Italian food. So someone gave him an Italian int- nickname. Isn't that the shittiest reason I think it's sometimes worth persevering with these answers to get to the nugget of information? Like that that for some reason, we'll stick with me forever. Hey, passed a guy Tony. How many so show networks on? Friends. My space. If you want off how to this URL. Dot com slash John's. This or Twitter comes. Follow us. Here's a question from a man who calls himself, Saad luck. And is in Canada Sadler. Says I had this beautiful girlfriend small godless funny, and we made each other quite happy. What does it mean? But godless actually does that mean feast. Yeah, I think they both match in the beliefs fun together for five and a half years live together for over three years being to Cuba twice house appropriation ship business. It's long-term serious. She is a studious career minded individual bachelor of science degree working in insurance. Type. I'm a Jeff lebowski type. I remember absolutely nothing about the big lebowski stone call. Okay, I was working as a bouncer at Gable painting acrylic in evenings. Achieving that much except making a loft every day on a few great on good mills. Think of me as a stay at home. Comedian her age is twenty six my age thirty one in my life backpack too broad and had a blast. She had not traveled much aside from leaving her home country, which he doesn't specify to come to Canada, which is where we met. So she left in December twenty seventeen on a working holiday visa to Austrailia. I'm feeling sad. Violence coming in. Now, he does call himself, Saad luck. So I had already been to and used up my visa when I was eighteen in Harrison's, I gained a lot of weight drank more than insensible and began playing the lottery in the vain hope of winning on reuniting with her two weeks ago. I won a hundred thousand dollars. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Yep. I didn't see that coming. Oh, what a one hundred thousand dollars by playing the lottery and drinking too much. Well, a great. This is enough to clear my debt, but a solid nestegg away. Go find my lady in Australia. Because the flights from Canada to Australia. I had to come along because the hospital thing about thousand dollars. He's he's got it. Except tonight. She told me she still trying to find herself and still sees me as an underachiever. Hello. I just won the lottery. Treatment is a supply. Look, I'm not fit for her future. Ooh. I understand perspective. But I thought we could do anything if we were together. And she saying I understand I understand perspective. But I'm still gonna Trump favorite insist on the one, that's what this isn't it because you were together. But you said that you didn't do anything. Yeah. And I empathize because I feel like I've spent a lot of my life Multan use outlook not doing enough. So turn include. I have a job. I mean, not technically Gaffey mountain. So I played played hoping to win to win her back. I one and still lost very good at summarizing, the story of your life into betrayal. But I'm not sure in a world where winning the lottery isn't a matter of a chief -ment. He's won the lottery. Can he win her back? This shit is writing itself all eons me this. What now I mean from the way that we're approaching your Email? The thing to do would be a big final Activa film flight Australia on a big remonstrate surprise who could resist. But the worry would be you'd get there. And she's like snuggling up with some other person on a working holiday visa to a stray Leah. Yeah. Have you seen combine your name? Yes. That final. I'm not I'm just I don't know. Details. Just that final scene is what's going to happen. If you go to Australia. Well, that means that Saad luck is going to be in a lot of gifts. Yes. I'd look imagine being Justice cutest. Timothy Chevrolet people can pay you to panda. That will make it worth. Also. That is a fantastic shirt. He's in the last scene. Sure. And he's about to have dinner with his parents, those people eat very well in that film. They do cracking eighty Santrac. You know, it's not so sad. After all, I guess the thing about winning one hundred thousand dollars amazing though that is it's not enough to retire for the rest of your life. Is it, and I feel harsh thing that you said like, but it isn't like, let's be honest. It is a life changing amount. And yet helps you buy a house or whatever. But it's not actually changing your life in the sense that your direction is still coming up in the ski, isn't it? Her concerns for you are that you don't have a proper job. You all the person who went spend drinks too much place the lottery, and this isn't changing that this is sort of confirming that bias that feels about you. So I I like you. I sense a lot about your character from your Email, very self deprecating your funny, I can see why she might have liked you as well. But it sounds like she knows you're that person. You know, there's no point changing to try and convince because she loved you as you were. She's just decided you're not right for her. And I worry that you're not I'm not sure that him doing different things with his life is changing himself. You can do different things in your life. I've had periods of extraordinary under activity, and then of extreme business, not I think that means an entire personality alteration, but I've seen you in both those periods, and I'd say you approach both. You remain true to yourself. And I'm not sure that he you know, if she doesn't think that his approach to that element of his life is right. I'm not sure he can change it. But maybe if he had a bit more of a plan. Maybe he's like, okay. I can kind of think about what I want to do because I have enough money to pay the rent for a while. What do I want to do in? How do I do it? And what what represent some direction where she's thinking who is this person, though, I'm opting into a life with does gun thing. You want to know? So she might like in a few time. We'll be living with a forty year old Jeff lebowski because it was kind of cute when he was in his twenties, and I was a student, but in middle age, it won't be cute remote turn into mature country and western style. Jeff bridges. I mean. Oh, hello. That's cool too. Yeah. Lot of women into that, including my wife, by the way, she'll watch anything Jeff bridges any. So what we're saying is just us Jeff bridges as your life icon, but choose a different film. Jeff bridges true. Yeah. Say have some writing style, outlook luck? So I think what you could do is pitch book based on you making over your life in the style of different bridges films. Yeah. I read that do you think the grand gesture flight, Australia and surprise the thing would work. What you think she's trying to say to him? It's definitely over will both mutually exclusive. I think it raises your hand like she'll have to have a reaction to it. You are imposing yourself. Of course, he's gonna react to it. But I'm not sure it's gonna change what she fundamentally believes. He say maybe another man or lady on the scene that she's not telling you about. So I just think you know. Yes. Okay. Temporarily it gives you a bit more of a chance. But ultimately, you know, once the holiday has gone, and we're back to normality again, you're the same guy and she wants to change. Okay. So maybe instead of that spend some of the money on yourself. So maybe you go on a life changing trip to somewhere different or higher life coach find direction on try and sell your critic paintings. Well, we. I hope Saad locks lock gets a bit better listeners. If you won't listen, something a little more. Cheerful about love. We recommend the aunts me this love album, a one hour special of questions all about love and sex and dating and your sexy body parts buying sexy. Clothes for your mom. Squirting not Senate school. Go. Often you hear that being used in an album sale is it says someone who I think has got more than one hole in their painless is in that is available for Valentine's Day. Now's the time to buy fuel significant other them really revved up raring to go and like all our albums. You can find that. At me this store dot com and on Amazon and on itunes, and is it suitable for children. I would say not no, yeah. F-? Why imagine an hour of us talking about sex and ask yourself with that suitable for children. You didn't even need to ask us. Yeah. You'll capable of deductive reasoning listless. And we will be back on the first day in February with another all new episode of aunts me this. I'm for that. We need your questions this nece all of our contact. Details are on our website of dot com. And most you're on the internet. Why not check out our other projects as well. In glazing. My magazine podcast, the modern man that is modern man with two N's dot co dot U K in the latest edition all new two thousand nineteen par five of my annual conversation with Tom Price and Stuart Goldsmith about our mutual fatherhood 's does the first part predated you being father. Indeed. Yes, all our exile. He's about becoming dad's within realized across sites. You can listen to my pocus, the illusion is at the looseness dot org. The last episode is a quiz that you can play along with as you listen, which is a bit of funds novel. It's learning through play. Also, not night doing a brand new allusions live show at SF sketch. I in San Francisco what the SF stance will on the twenty eighth of January at the bra with it. So tickets are on sale now should come along. When you say brand new. So if someone went to see your live illusionist estate show last year is completely different like present new all new. Wow. Well, not nyah both SO that's old. But. Okay. I'm not in. Oh, yeah. You can listen to song by song customers. We talk about the music and film of Tom waits at song by song podcast dot com. And just a quick message for those of you who were emailing us over the festive period asking if you donate to the show or do we have a patriarch the answers. You've always been able to donate to the show. We just don't tend to talk about it very much because we're English. But I would like to take the opportunity to say thank you to Laura for a very kind gift on pay pal. She pledged a very lovely amount. So thank you very much for that much appreciated. Thanks, Laura and all the links to donate to the show. If you want to do that no pressure wearing leash as a let me. Let me this dot com and on this podcast dot com. We will be back with a retro wants me this hallway through the month. And then return on the first fabric with a fresh new onto me this until then.

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Behind the Necker - John May

Scouting Radio on Demand

1:01:03 hr | 2 years ago

Behind the Necker - John May

"Start off nice of easy by essay. Tell us about yourself. Your by all on Wikipedia. Well, we never trust Wikipedia because Altamont Wikipedia, so tell us bite yourself like first of all Wade. Did you start sketching? Scouting when I was eleven years old, and I joined a scout troop like, I guess lots and lots and lots of young people to my scout troop was in Stroud in show, which is where I was growing up. And yeah, I guess I haven't really left scouting since. That's not entirely true. I was asked to leave. Oh, briefly why I became senior patrol leader for day. I think I meant it revolution rather than perhaps being quite as compliance as I should have. And that led to a shall we say the scouting deciding it was probably better that I was to take scouting way. You one of these trouble t daters, I was really I think probably I I've been causing trouble ever since. Now, let's scouting off to the troop. And it was he was right? I it was time to leave. I wasn't venture scout which goes to show that I must be very old as I still remember ventures counting. But I think rejoin scouting when I was at university of Bristol. In in the south west of England. And yeah, I had the amazing opportunity to. To do much gold award and for my service my volunteering path bit I thought, well, maybe I should maybe I should volunteer in scouting. So I became a cub scout leader, and then I can honestly say the since then I've been in this all with the same group. No, no, no, no, not at all. I've moved all over the UK. Off university trying to teach. Okay. So I was scouting pretty much wherever wherever my teaching took me. So so, yeah, I've I've been reading the scout in in the Midland's Lichfield in Staffordshire and in central London where I was a district Commissioner, and then hiwickum where I was a scout leader, and I most recently in Oxfordshire where where on the chair of trustees. Obey good. So what was your first Necker? Then what color was your first Necker? Then does. We're going to get into a conversation with his scarf or mecca. It's necker. It's a decker. Well, let-let's push the pet is a neck or negative. Written in some detail about that somewhere else. Okay. Scott scarf. My very first one wall one color. It was. Sort of claret color, and then I moved to to to another scout troop in Gloucestershire at my school. And it was bright. Okay. Now, we now seeing some of the people that because we're calling this program behind the Necker. So if we if we were to say just say that you were schoolteacher by by profession, so if I was tasked to John as a youth, what was your favorite memory of either camp or hike where would a being? Well, that's a really really good question. I guess probably. It would be as about I guess I was I was fourteen fourteen and a half years old was having the opportunity to do practice for my Kevin bronze and probably at the same time. I was busy working on something. We used to call it. Vance scout standard. And. Disappeared in just in the in the hills of Gloucestershire learning to read a map and learning to read a compass, and I was very lucky. I have the mazing petroleum. And his name is Christopher okay. And. I I have to tell you. I was not particularly effective scout. And only practice the patrol was was given the opportunity each of us to take the map into to lead. Lead the rest of the patrol is t- to on on a. And of course, it killed to my term. I got completely lost. And and I remember it really really well because Christopher could have done two things. You know, he could have he could have just pointed at me and made me look full, but made himself look very big in front of the rest of the patrol or he could have done something else and get something else. What he did was just when nobody else was looking gently pointed muscial and reoriented the map and just pointed where we were and we were meant to be carrying and that meant I was able to bring everybody back home safely. And it was it was at that moment. And I remember it really really. Well, it's that moment that I recognized that leadership isn't just about screaming at people from the front actually leadership is a quiet thing. And Christopher me. He pits him is everything. That I've taken forward in the rest of my life about leadership, and it's incredible. But these are the moments John that we learn a base at very very young age. And even now for me, I will say the leader I've heard similar situations. But as a youth member, you know, this is something that will instill in you for the rest of your life, and as demonstrated now as as a scout leader, then have you on the particular moments where you just laughed your head off while we all have those moments Bush. I'm sure that's one really resonates in your mind. There are loads. I mean, I'm not sure about laughing my head off. Being really really moved. I I was I was lucky enough to be the contingent leader full the UK to take cat that the UK contingent to the world scout jamboree in the Netherlands, a why okay, which was pretty pretty special. And obviously that's a lot of a lot of years of from Olot. Lease a lot of months of preparation, and I guess we took two and a half hours, maybe three thousand young people and remember sitting with the with the guy who was acting as my deputy. Who was an extraordinary man still is an extraordinary, man. Now, what's the world scout you're having Kuala Lumpur? His name is Steve pack and the two of Saturday opening ceremony and surrounded by young people from the United Kingdom. We we just looked Jaren thought call this is this is something special. This is this is. What scouting is really about forty thousand. I guess maybe forty thousand people maybe thirty five thousand scouts from all over the world. All speaking different languages, all sitting together and celebrating the fact that that part of this extraordinary movement. It's not something that makes you laugh. But my goodness me. It sends it tingle down my spine. Yes. Absolutely these moments that we do have goes where you just go way wash have. I just done here was whatever just created. You know, even it can be as easy John as a local scope group where you have Turkey scouts are the counselors and just something just goes click, and you just realize just what you have created. And let's move forward night. You talk about to Vandenberg. Now, you have been involved with Duke Avineri and a bronze silver. I'm guessing gold up this state to actually being part of the community and actually going internationally and representing the Duke van ver? Yeah. Yeah. That's my day job. And I guess when I was when I was getting lost Christopher in the Gloucestershire countryside. I could never possibly have believed that tem wouldn't thirty years later. I would I would end up leading or at least supporting supporting the growth of that. You can have them present national award worldwide. I have a very pompous job title. I'm called the the the secretary general of that you commit in prison to national award and the vinegars international award. He's in about one hundred thirty countries around the world. It's known by different names Aska in ardent. Of course, -solutely, you know, cash go very very well. Mogole told her I'm glad to hear. And and yeah, you're right. I'm a I'm a gold from the United Kingdom Stevie but in in other countries in most countries around the world where called risen to national award. We in South Africa when known as the president's award for youth empowerment, as of course, Arslan Gus ker presidents. What's the I mean for South Africa was extraordinarily Mandela? Was that president who introduced it? Okay. So I got exit pretty special. But yeah, I mean, I didn't even one time. We reckon at the moment there are about one point three million young people doing their award somewhere in the world is super. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, you you said you said a moment ago, you were talking about you have those moments when you think gosh, did I do that. And the answer is I. I I find myself thinking, well, I didn't do that. That's the whole point. I think what's amazing about youth organizations around the world is the it's not so much about the adults. All we do is just gently put in place the frameworks to be able to make learning happen. Yes. What's so exciting is is whether it's with a scout troop or whether it's with a group of. Secrets or whatever it's about young people making decisions for themselves and young people taking control of what they want to do. So that they can find that person that passion and their place in the world. And that's that's pretty special. Yeah. No designee. I'm going to put you on the spot because you're aid opposition with the Duke of Edinburgh is tiny moment where you've heard a story of van der award holder that you go and why that is something amazingly special night. I know I got my gosh. And I think to myself. Yeah, I got up, but then I've heard stories about other people that don't MA's ING Gaza. Qualifications and final such actually. Oh, you deserve a Gasco over this person. Who's doing something particularly individual special? And everybody's award journey is unique. Absolutely. We don't have one program. We have one point three million programs. Yes. Because every single young person plots their own way through and. Yeah, I mean, my my own award experience as as young person that university when I did my gold was probably as as ordinary as as anybody could possibly imagine. You know, there was a little bit of. Volunteering with the scouts. We went on our expedition in the hits in the north of England. I did some running for my physical recreation and my skill with video making okay, that's that's five years ago. However, yet, they're all I guess I'm lucky because I get to to to hear some amazing young people. So let me let me give you just a couple of examples. Yes. Absolutely. Let me tell you about an extraordinary young woman that I met in Uganda who Florence okay Florence when I first met her was fourteen years old. Just started have bronze. Came from a a big extended family. A mum and dad had both died from aids. She'd been looked after by her grandma grandma couldn't afford to after all children, and so had a really really difficult choice to make and the choice looked like she was making walls. What she going to at staff. All will she going to a frankly sell hip body and be in the sex trade in in in in Uganda? Luckily, she was picked up by an extraordinary non-government organisation, co SOS children's villages and was given the opportunity to go and stay in in their amazing. It's not an orphanage. It's it's it's what is what's called a children's village. It's where young people grow up, right, right safe environment. And as part of that she was she was able to her award. And when I met her I said to it what you will do the rest of your life and she sex me. Well, what I'd really like to do that like to become a psychologist, and I thought, well, that's that's brilliant. And I'm really delighted for you and didn't really. You think much more about and then three years later, I was back in Uganda and at gold award ceremony where I was actually presenting little patches to everybody, and they striking young woman came up to me and said, you don't remember who I am do you. And I said to go shine recognize your face, but go on you can have to remind me, and she said, well, I Florence and you first met me in SOS children's religious, and I just want you to know that I've just got a place at macaroni university to to read psychology. Tears going jars. Special completely set proclaimed from that there's a young man called an inch Latrell from Nepal. I don't know why you went for your expedition. Adventurous journey as we call it in the in the award at Thame as I say mine within the Chevy, it's while initially. I did he he do things a little bit differently. So he's gold award expedition was to climb Mount Everest. Why? I did I did all the Wicklow away in Arlon divide each and by little midgets and. Running up the side of the Sally gaffe, go this is terrible. Both going on doing Everest as a sort of a different type of terrain. And I have a fight across opium with our flag. Top of the top of Mount Everest. Pretty special. What's even more extraordinary? Is that he's now becoming a world leader? He's a he's also scout. I might add. And is he's an amazing person. He is currently at base camp. Waiting to do his second ascent of Everest. He has packed in the back of his bags world scout flying, which I have seen. I see all on the ten. Well, he he I'd also he's also got the flag fall scout jamboree as along with the is international award. And I had a message from him this afternoon because they've got wifi base time. Which is crazy. You just. And he's he's the weather is windy. So they're they're having to wait oats. When the weather is better. He'll be summits in Chris second mazing. John you use. Talk about who's doing the Duke van number and scouting just surprises me how you find time for both. And. And. Is the title. So that you can make them as international waters is is the thing that pays my mortgage happens to be my passion as well. But. Isn't it? Great. If you can do joke where where you actually feel that that going to work that you're making difference. Now one thing I noticed on following you, of course, on social media is starts you've really progressed the do commendable award with American. I it's it's America. Just one of these new countries that's just really gone on board, especially with the boy scouts America. Yeah. That's true. We've had a couple of goes it trying to make things work in in the USA over several years. But we think at last we've we've cracked it and partly that's down to an amazing leadership team. That's in the USA. And you're quite right. There's a memorandum of understanding now with voice Coutts America and particularly with the venturing program. Okay. And we're doing some absolutely amazing stuff with them. But I think I think Gino, the real thing happening is the people around the world are recognizing the importance of stuff like scouting like that you'd rather MS international award or the stuff the stuff that we describe as non formal education. Yes. For the last twenty thirty years governments have committed an enormous amount of money to formal education. And and around the world we've seen. Big big improvements in literacy, and numeracy and basic science and kids are better that makes me sound old. But people leaving school. Better qualified than before that increasingly employers at saying, yeah, yeah. They can they know that stuff up. They're not able to working teens than they don't understand about punctuality. They would just old attained stuffed we learn skating. Exactly, exactly. And I think I think what we're doing both in scouting. And also with the award is we're rounding zeitgeist at the moment. And I hope it's one wave that we really can sit actively because I think in order to grow up properly. I'm become a great citizen. Whether you're in the USA or whether you're in Uganda. What you need to do. Hugh needs to skills and the havens attitudes that make you into a great citizen. Well, we could talk about this all night long. John, I think tixx and a lot of different countries, they advocation system under curriculum is totally for fetch. Why should I have to have a scent learning of English Irish mounts jog free when you should be able to look I saw this this curriculum and go, and I have seen with my own eyes. Where is schools like just go, right? Hold on a minute with taking these children to the doors, and we are going to teach them the doors, and we you know, there's a lot of to be said health and safety. Yes. Health and safety to an extent, both, you know, if we take health and safety too, far, we won't let kids climb trees. You're right. You're right. And I think I think what we've gotta do as we provide a framework for young people to learn to manage risk. Yes. If if we have generations of leaving school without ever having to manage risks. You know, if they driven around Dublin in four by fours from play dates to play date absolutely from the age of fine with the technology in the back of the car, then then never gonna learn how we travel the real world. Yes. And and I think what I've learned through through scouting. And and also through the award is that if you provide the framework for young people to manage risks and try things out but within a safe environment. Then when things go wrong somebody that pick up the pieces, then eventually young people will be able to manage without having somebody around. I have to throw in here. John one of my favorite memories with mice. Go creep. And we're copy dining lockdown. You prob. No lock down because it'd be over NAR. Several times down around were in lockdown, and I'm camping with a patrol doing patrol, leader course. And all we we noticed that Gus goes down there, and they are doing with the RS army, and they're taking all those kids across lockdown into left Tae, and they turn around to say sorry for the inconvenience of interrupting your patrol leader com, come to burger dot night. And they're the arms are hot their full barbecue. Annoy mean full barbecue roasted a pig on that barbecue. But those those group of teenagers were being trialed properly by the arch army right into the Gaza. And they are not going to experience in school. Nowhere. Know what the youth organization does wash. Scouting does does what the Guscott does. If you take it put them into the doors like us. You see what we've got to do. We actually go to swayed education ministers around the world, the that's what's important, and what's actually they don't need much persuading. In just a few a few weeks time, I'm going to Ghana. Ghana the request of his excellency the president whose patron of the award there. And he wants to talk to me about how he can. Change the way that education is seen in his country. So that young people get a holistic education rather than purely an academic education. Now, if isn't a say that getting qualifications isn't important good academic education is absolutely vital. But if you don't have that extra then you won't be properly prepared for life just just two or three weeks ago. I was in Lithuania having the same conversation with the minister for education that and she is adamant that the next generation of young Lithuanians. We'll have a full and varied education. I think I think the sad thing perhaps they're all countries in the world where the split between non-formal education and form legislation is getting wider. And that's those are the places where. Where I think scouting go guiding the cadets and other youth organizations can help to bridge that gap for young. Now, do you do you find yourself? Now, you mentioned a lot of the other association John in your last sentence. But do you see yourself towards sketching because you were sculpture, and you can adopt a Duke Denver into skating. I'd say I have the privilege situation of understanding scouting as an organization, of course, that's been any other organism which is which is which is which is not a negative comment to make. As you know, I was vice chat of the world organization in this camp move a number of years. So of course, I I understand that for the last three or four years I been a trustee of the secrets in the UK. So I've got a better understanding now of organizations that perhaps have a slightly different methodology than the one that I grew up. Okay. But I think I think what if I'm honest with you. What scouting gives me is an understanding of what it's like to be a volunteer when I'm sitting in my professional role. Yes. So so I could just as easily have been a volunteer with the cadets or volunteer with football club, or whatever the challenge those of us who do this for a living, and I do the award for a living is that we cannot possibly understand what it's like to be a leader and the sorts of pressures and challenges that folks had I think I think my scouting has given me an often Tissot when I speak about volunteering within the award the that it's difficult to manufacture my predecessor secretary general with an amazing woman. Coakley Chirazi was very very. Activist volunteer in guilt joining so I'm certainly not unique. I think having that understanding volunteering is just really him. But I I always think I know my listeners I'm biased, but he don't have the same type of commitment in a football team as you do in escorting, go guiding cadets where you are actually taking the children take into you camping. And especially with skates like Skype and girl guiding or cadet, at least you have a badge framework that you're working pond with was the football team. Yes, you are putting the two or three days in coaching the team and then a football match at the weekend. But you're not living with the youth. Members weakened. Weaken the residential experience is is really really important because you see you see all sides of the young person. Don't you? Absolutely. When you living within twenty four hours a day. But I wouldn't. I wouldn't decry the work of clubs, particularly we can we really really closely with a football club soccer club. That's based in one of the most challenging slums in Nairobi while. Okay. And and young people are drawn to soccer club. Because. Whether you're living in a slum condition, or whether you're living in one of the most prestigious parts of Europe, you can guarantee that premise, it is something that always. Yes, absolutely kids will turn out with menu knighted t shirts on and so on and so forth. They probably last year strength, but nevertheless, still wearing. And what we've been doing is saying to those those amazing youth leaders who are working with those kids and using football as the starting point. Well, why don't you just tighten the award is a framework and that to your activities. And so is an amazing situation where football is a magnet, but young people get unity do volunteering to do some service to the community to learn other skills. And of course, go on that expedition and get that residential experience show talking about. Yes. You can take that even further. What lots of people don't know about the award is the we were with young people wherever they might be. And and one of the places where we were Hughley effectively with young people is when they're in prison. Okay. Yeah. I've I've met some extraordinary young people who turning their lives around using the award is the tool to do. So we got time for a little story. Yes. Absolutely. I was in town in South Africa. And visiting a group of fourteen year old boys who are all imprisoned for gang related crime. And we went round the and. They telling me what they were doing for this skill because if you know you have to do a skill to get your to get your award, and we went round this nickel. And one was doing baking another was doing motorcycle maintenance, another was doing woodwork thinking, this is really really clever because each of these young people is learning a skill that when they get out of prison that actually able to use to get income. And then we got to Joseph his name of that. Okay. But there was lots and lots of nudging going on. And I could work out. What what was what why there was suddenly this this atmosphere in the room? Knife in a good way. And I said so. So what did you do what you doing for your skill? And he say that I'll show you and he stood out and with a YouTube channel ten avoids in perfect child him sang Nessun Dorma. Why I'm on the rest of the kids approach, and frankly that will his and it was amazing. And it made me realize that you should never ever ever assume anything with young people. I had a suit that because he people in prison the only skills that they could be engaged in would be occasional ones. And that was not, of course, it was that those kids are chosen those skills for themselves. But he was also right that Joseph had chosen to sing as he skill and had literally literally found his voice. It's just like an x factor moment. Right. Probably probably see my. Well. Anyway, we don't see myself. But I I guess what I'm saying is that we we have an extraordinary responsibility as leaders when we work with young people. Yes. Not to take the shortcut always. But to search for as mentors to young people to search a helping them to make the decision about what they want to do in order to reach their aspirants. It's if I nuclear cash, and I look at I look at the world weld wide. And I look at scouting one of the things that I find sometimes quite I suppose a little bit disappointing. And I my experience suggests that that I'm no different is that when it comes to the volunteering part of the award young people. Volunteer in with the cuts downs with their own group. Absolutely great stead of instead of perhaps being encouraged by their leader joss to look a little bit further and think what does that really really excite you as a young person? Let's fungible volunteering opportunity that makes that work now as it happens my own experience. Volunteering with young people. And I turned it into a career. If I have to thank all people have them pros won't took plane for the whole of my my career of working with with young people. But let's just make sure that we're not forcing young people into volunteering. The actually would be second choice rather? I absolutely it all comes down to as well, Don, having a good juke van number award leader out or a Guscott leader passively to who said, what do you want to do, you know aunt and talk to me to it. So I did bring a couple of skates in my last group through to Edinburgh or Gus Gus silver on bronze, and thankfully, they they did help with the. I didn't push someday did want to help with the beaver section onto they worked with beaver section along with doing as well. Now, you did mention to me on social media that you were heavily involved with this. We talked to Tim kids urine the week on schedule radio this new logo for the skies to sociation. It's not it's not the badge on. It's not as as as Norma media have portrayed us. It's not a change that's going to totally revolutionize disclosure sociation. So I asked him on he hesitation to tell me. Yes, or no, there's a bad sauce going eight around. So so meter out the moment that goes this is the one that's passionate by SCO dissociation UK is it the actual logo. Heavily involved in it. Okay. I was I was the guy who with a number of others led the development of the last the Swoosh Swoosh again, which now looks well, it looks teen years old because that's what it is. I have seen and treatments all the new logo. And. I'm I'm really really quite hot and excited by what I've seen. I have literally seen for moments. Okay. No more from that. I think the thing about visual identities. Is there any part of a brand? And and it's a corporate brand at that. As you say when not changing or the UK staff association is not changing it's worth the will badge. It's certainly not losing the fluid Lee, the IRO depending on how you read history. But but I think is something about making sure that corporately. An organization looks like it's fate for the time and the people that he wants to attract I have experience of that with the award. We we rebranded just over seven seven years ago. And globally. Before before that we had a looked remarkably like a dove, and we called our selves international award. And my worry about that. And it was one that was shared by a lot of people within the organization worldwide was people just didn't understand who we were. They didn't understand that. We were an aspirational organization for young people. It looked like we were piece Okinawa's -ation. To say the piece is not an important value to convert. Okay. And so we rebranded them out morphed from being DAV to being more aspirational. I guess it's probably an eagle but nobody's quite soon. But the important thing is now look now looks to the future, and it's colorful has the colors that are represented with their sections of the award and weld wide. We reintroduce the name of that you can have him Brett because that was a piece of now dreadful marketing sleep now that was a piece of brand equity that allowed us to set ourselves apart from everybody else and allowed us to show who we are the result of that has been first of all the it was adopted by a virtually everybody and those didn't talk to chose to use it as an endorsement brand to their own brand. So we thought it would take three or four years to get the the visual identity around. The around the wealthy took six months. People loved it. I'm wanting to use it, and it has been part old. And I think a genuine contributory factor to a move in the number of participants over the last five years from seven hundred fifty thousand a year to one point three million and growing every year. So I know that people have when looking at the scout the UK stout association said, well, you know, you need to spend money on other things the answer is actually you do need to spend some money on what you look like. At corporately. Of course, you also need to raise money and spend money on developing scouting in underserved markets again, if we using management fake, but the two not ends of a spectrum. Parts of a tool kit of what one should be spending money on the chief executive and a board of trustees have to make decisions about other things. Like, I mean, frankly stakeout where an enormous amount of money now has to be spent absolutely forty years ago. We might never have considered that it would be important. I look if I look if I look at the Scout Association u k through the lens of being the chief executive of another useful when all you guys ation, but you framework, okay. I look at what the team is doing in the UK. And I think, you know, I think you're developing a really really effective brand to encourage young people who would not normally come scouting to come. Discover the adventure and learn those the keyword that you've used enough tentative, John it's branding is not just the logo as Tim kids. Reckon point eight in the interview, it's not just the logo. And we haven't seen us we've seen rumors. It does look like we're still keeping the our head or the fluid Lee. And you know, what I asked him earlier in another interview are we trying to the uniform. Are we getting rid of the next week? Nothing else. There is changing sketching escaping people recognize skating with the Florida the or the our head on the Neckar. And that is going to always be known as the global. I think you're right. I I do think scouting a movement. And I think I think things progress if I had looked at for instance, the way in which out promise has got new alternative versions over the last few years, not just to to to to look at young young people have faith other than a monotheistic one. But also young people, perhaps we no faith at all. I think what that's done is. It's made it easier for and outs. Anion people to get underneath what scouting values or about. And to make a promise they can truly make. I think. The way in which scouting in the UK and in Arlon and number of other countries around the world has really got to grips with issues. Young people their sexual with sexual identity is way that it has helped young people to come to scouting who actually would really really benefit from the nature of the relationships that exist within scouting. And the support that that provided who would not in the past felt comfortable within the scout movement. I cannot see those anything buck good. Yes. And I think the danger for us is that as leaders and. In my case leaders who are getting less hair and the head getting Graha. We tend to judge the changes that are going on in scouting through the lens of own memory of what we ourselves enjoyed as young people. Absolutely. And and of course, some of that the appropriate Kate still as we said earlier in the interview kids climbing trees still like camping, but young people today do experience the world in a different way to the white in which we experienced teenage and it's getting short-run choisir in generations of. Yeah. And my my sense is that the those that are reacted uncomfortably with change that that feeling of discomfort is is perfectly understandable. And I sometimes feel it myself, in fact, sometimes Jonathan I feel myself only thirty five years of age, you know, when when you look. Right. Sometimes I contradict myself and sketching radio. It's an internet radio station for sketching. But then you just go the boy scouts of America jamboree has fully gene network across the whole jamboree and promoting technology in the counselors. And then you say well, hold on Minnesota. We take technology to come sites. Say really interesting thing that which is and we sometimes contradict themselves on the tree for the mattress as human beings. We spend a whole ton contradicting ourselves because that's what being human. Honestly. That's what being human is about. Yes. And so it's perfect. You're really to look at something. Oh. And then to think, actually, let's just let's just see how it works it so through because. It may be that people who are not at the moment immediately attracted to the movement. Look it let's take the visual identity. Isn't example, look at the new one and go that's interesting. I mean on the factor is being introduced is gonna bring scouting to the to the fore in terms of the media. And there will be a new story to be told. I I know I just feel that sometimes we have quite a binary attitude towards life. Good or it's bad. I the rut. Well, increasingly as old I'm beginning to realize that have the. The monopoly on what's right and actually. There's a much much more complicated nuance that shades in between the different decisions fit into and that sometimes it's better just to go. Let's see how things work their way through them. Rather than paying to vociferous around that a plus or minus, absolutely. Scouts boy scouts America. Allowing girls now into the into the. Younger sections, which will eventually be the oldest actions. We've been saying on skating radio for years, and I've been predicting it was going to call themselves the scouts USA only recently, they've decided to call themselves the scouts BSA and Michael Barr said well, eventually you won't realize them calling themselves. Go spear say, they're just going to be known as skates. What what is your thought on John? My the I don't. I have Jill nationality. I'm Australian on English from my accent that I'm the most stray ever met. I don't pretend to understand the complicated nature of a country that is as big as the continent in which both our countries fit, absolutely. I guess I understand a little bit of war might see USA take in New York and Chicago. An a little bit down the east coast. But I don't pretend to understand how things work in the true made west. And so what I look at is the way in which Mike soak the chief scout executive and the amazing team of leaders that on now part of the boy scouts of America's leadership team looking to shift. The boy scouts America into a different place. I I don't know what the drivers are for them. Their talks about it all being to do with numbers. I'm not entirely convinced by that. I think there's also a desire from from the senior leadership of the PSA to be relevant young people and also to sit close to scouting values and for them that means diversifying their membership. How they do. So and accommodate the the wants and needs all such a broad spectrum of people ranging from those who would tomorrow have a fully coeducational organization through to those that cannot possibly see how introducing girls is gonna be a good thing for the boys with whom they work. Yes, how you do that. And keep as many people as you can. Can on board and on the journey is very difficult. I think it's a really really difficult time rape. And I think Mike and his team doing it on doing really really well. And if I look at the changes over the last eighteen months to two years, and this John eighteen months, we have seen revolution the changes in the boy scouts of America. Now, what what something something that really is beggars belief for me is how the girl guides on them. Boy scouts of America haven't just merged become Skate America. It might sound the most simple answer. Both. Maybe it's not. Well, I don't think it is. If you look at the the missions of by Fokin is Asians well wind they are they're complementary, but this subtly different. Yes. Go guiding go scouting has always positioned itself globally. And I think it's certainly true in the USA as being about a space for young women to be able to grow. In a space wet where it is. It is the the against the development of young women is the first and most important thing. Hey, good. Never get cold girl guide stand in the US. I don't know. I that's a really good. We don't down to that. It's not just a US the Philippines. Also, call that guilt. Okay. Something new everyday. Yes. Is decision. World Association of go karts and kill scouts. Wasn't wasn't shifted about I guess about twenty five years ago. My history isn't too good to say actually wasn't believes that young men and young women grow best if they do their activities together, and that's. That's a different nuance all still wanting to create great citizens and wanting people to to find that position in the world. But but but doing so in a slightly different way. And I think he's very dangerous for us to judge. What's going on in another country? Absolutely. Yes. Our own direct experience absolutely holes will help to inform it, but it shouldn't be the only information that we give Juno out. I I'm old enough and ugly enough to remember us moving to full co education within the UK Scout Association, which is nine hundred sixty seven about her ship before. I'm thinking the ninety shifted to full code. Okay. And I was I was part of the senior leadership team within the scap sociation as volunteer at that time. It was it was tough. When we announced that we were going to say that by two thousand seven all scout groups would be co educational. The the the hate mail that I received was quite considerable. Which is not at all. Well, it was people who who were really upset about change equally. You've got European associations that chose to merge in the way that you just described by the guilt guides and the scouts coming together as a single is Asian way back in the early seventies. And I look at what's going on at the moment in the voice cancer American. They can't understand how I going to say she could've continued for so long in the situation that is, but it's worth remembering that installing Netherlands for instance, which was which is a scout and guide national organizing. Yes. So it's an organization that merged back in the seventy s. Actually, there are lots of different opportunities for young people within that organization. There are single sex scout troops, and and whether that's goes all boys that aren't mixed as well. And I think now makes his the the norm, but the opportunity to have single sex exists, so one shouldn't I just it comes back to this issue of of right wrong. Binary decisions for me, boys. America are working out. What is going to work for them in a pragmatic way and on managing change in a way that works for that. So she era subsidy. Particular which remember is different from the business model that the rest of us us, actually. Charted organizations so so that they don't just have to bring along their membership. They have to bring along the organizations that have adopted scouting as their method for you yet. Absolutely. Now, I have two final questions for your job. I know taking a lot of your time about a busy man with everything that you do. Now, if you to say if I had a magic wand and was able to wave across the skating movement. What would I change? Why? Gosh, I think what if I truly had a magic wand, I would and resources were no object. I would make it possible. For young people to understand what the world of scouting looks like as well as their own immediate community. I think I think what scouting has as a very very special part of it is that single purple badge that all members. It was. Okay. I recognize that not everybody is necessarily a member was, but we we all by far the largest yes of the global organizations and. I I just know come right back to to to our early part of this conversation. I remember how special it was sitting at a world scout jamboree and thinking gosh, we're all pulled together with a similar set values. Unlike to find more and more ways with a magic wand to help every person appreciate that. Now, I think scouting radio has done a good deal to help to. Thank you very much. John. I think I think scouting internet has done a has done that. And I think social media, frankly is changing the way in which people perceive the world of scouting in a way that I could not possibly have imagined discount. I myself young scout myself, but I just like to take that even further. So that every person have the opportunity to have some kind of international experience knife final final question on Tim create said, I did know you'll go to ask me this question. If you hard one, I I said one, and then I said, you can have three if you want if you had one or three songs to say what scouting means to you. What would that sound be? He's going to be really Coney. Okay. So the very first immediate comes into mind. Is this is this is I'm never gonna live this. So you're a member. I think it was s club seven and reach for the sky. Yes, it's corny, but we will play listeners because I'll tell you why first of all because actually that's about aspiration. And it says everything for me about what what young people within scouting should think about in terms of their futures. But he's also happens to be the piece of music that was played every single road show when we relaunched the scout program and began in the UK already, okay. Period of growth that has the we to say is still is still continue. So that would be I guess the piece of music that I would immediately. Choose. And then. I think I'll stick at that. Because otherwise, you begin to get down some really cliche spaces. Okay. And I'll be fascinated team out to two on. He he actually picked the penguin song comfort song. Well, he's a pretty impressive campfire leader together. Surprising. I was my my second choice wouldn't be and this is deeply deeply disturbing. It would been credible way. On the question. I as a young as young person, I go Anna Norma cement out-all performing in gang show. And every time I hear that. I am transported back to being a teenager and recognizing that scouting co Scouting's about the outdoors. And of course, scouting is about campaign and a whole lot of things. But it's also about discovering what you yourself a really great hat, and I created a set of friendships and a love for performance through scouting the. Neither that fringe group. No of that nothing. No that nothing performances. That's a brilliant to you. Don't have third. We'll leave it to to tiny number somebody who was training as a management consultant because we should always talk in threes. Two. John. It's been after the pleasure talking to you what wrap up of a journey of scouting unto van Burr, and hopefully, we'll get to talk to you again, if any of our listeners have any questions they want to ask John obey to Vancouver or Skyping. I'm sure on show you happy to answer them. It and it's been it's been a real pleasure to chat. So thanks so much. Thank you.

John UK America America Christopher me Uganda trustee Tim football England Gaza soccer president Everest university of Bristol Netherlands Vance scout skating
Airbus calls time on A380 superjumbo

Marketplace Morning Report with David Brancaccio

07:39 min | 2 years ago

Airbus calls time on A380 superjumbo

"This marketplace podcast is brought to you by. Indeed, are you hiring with? Indeed, you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash marketplace. That's indeed dot com slash marketplace. And by Sunpro from Pitney Bowes, Sunpro online software makes it easy to save time and money print shipping, labels and stamps, right? From your desk and access discounted rates. Tried for free for thirty days and get a free ten pound scale when you visit PBA dot com slash morning. That's PB dot com slash morning. The end of an era at Airbus. And if you're popping the big question today, how green is your diamond? This is the marketplace morning report live from the BBC World Service. I'm anew on good morning. Now, if you've never flown first class on a double decker Airbus A three eighty missed the spa in the sky, not to mention the lounge bar and flat bed seats with the biggest TV screens will existing planes will still fly but this morning Airbus announced the end of production at a press conference, Airbus, boss. Tom enders said it was a tough decision. The use the word painful, and I mean, it certainly painful to take a decision after all the effort of all the money after all the submit, but many many thousand Emily's the seal. At the C all casually included if poured into that Brogham, but in business we have to base our decisions not on emotions or visual thinking. But but on thanks and the cold. Hide fact was that Emirates the biggest customer of the three eighty reduced its order. Mr. Anders said production will stop in twenty twenty one mocking the end of an era finger what we're seeing here is the end of a large four engine aircraft. And that is what it is. I mean has been speculation for years, whether we were ten years to the free eighty thing becomes clear when we were probably at least ten years too late or more. But in retrospect, it's it's all easy. However, let me stress one point here. And I hope you appreciate because I know many of you love to fly on the free eighty we're talking about the end of the production of the free in twenty twenty one. And we're not talking about the end of the program. But would be still plenty of opportunity to write on this fantastic. Eck Airbus CEO, Tom enders. Let's do the numbers orders. The three eighty may have stalled the companies better than expected results helped Airbus shares takeoff rising more than five percent. Elsewhere stock markets are mixed amid further US, China trade talks and unexpected surge in Chinese exports in January had little bearing on markets, China's huge trade surplus with the US source of anger within the Trump administration narrowed from December to twenty seven point three billion dollars. Now, Germany narrowly avoided recession at the end of last year. Europe's biggest economy missed its estimate for point one percent growth holding flat Dr team oh, Volmer Hauser is with the IFO institute at the university of Munich the reasons for the slowdown in the German economy are in the German industry, and this is only part of the German economy. If you look at consumption if you look at the construction industry. These are all factors which are currently supporting kroth. But it's definitely true is that German industry is in recession since the middle of last year, nevertheless dozen so down in Germany impact the rest of Europe. Definitely for example. If you look at the automotive industry, a great part of what the German Notre multiple industry is producing has been imported before from the rest of the world, mainly eastern Europe. So if the German car industry has problems in sailing, it's Brodec to the rest of the world. And this is of course, has an impact also on those parts of Europe or the rest of the world where we are importing our intermediate goods. Tim Wilson has her Valentine's Day is the second most popular day to get engaged and a greater proportion of those engagement rings are lab grown synthetic or green diamonds the lab gun. Julia market is worth just under two billion dollars globally. And it's projected to grow twenty two percent. Every year. Dime. Sarah, girl's best friend, my favorite piece of jewelry is obviously my engagement ring. Claire beaten Proctor got engaged two years ago. And like most women she was given a coveted diamond ring that moment is just kind of engraved on my memory every time. I look at the ring it just reminds me of that. Okay. Let's just the CD diamond lab. Increasingly those diamonds and not being dug out of the earth, but created over a few weeks in labs like this one where the environmental impact is considerably less poll may is a hydrologist at the CD diamond lab at the university of Bristol diamond has a vast array of different applications part from the obvious ones like cutting, tools and things like this. It can be used in quantum computers can be used and things like bio implants Cam uses a nuclear battery. There's a whole range of application. These diamonds aren't the sparkley ones you'd wear but new factories for lab-grown jewelry are springing up in the US UK, China and Russia and demand globally is growing. Just the third of US retailers even offer lab grown diamonds. But those that do market the stones green credentials De Beers. The iconic firm that convinced us diamonds are forever, and which still controls about thirty percent of the world's supply of mind stones has also got into the act. Polls. Amnesty is an independent diamond analyst in New York producing the diamonds in the UK and they're exclusively selling them through their light box website. He says De Beers wants to keep the two diamond separate lab grown diamonds as cheaper fashion items. Good for birthday gift and traditional mind stones for special occasion. As more lab. Grown diamonds are made prices will come down the production technologies are gonna improve. And I think when we're looking at two three years into the future. Most all add created diamond dragon. It'd be under one thousand dollars down a cobbled lane through green gates in the historic English town of York Ryan Atkins offers both kinds of diamonds to customers at his bespoke jewelers nightingales. He finds there is a gender gap when it comes to their appeal for when we sit down with a guy I'd say probably fifty percent of guys then choose the black grown option whereas women come for an appointment. It's more like eighty to ninety percent women opt for the luck grown upstream. From the conversation of had with the guys. They just don't want to get it wrong. With a lab grown diamond costing much less than a mind one. You just get more rock for your money. It's bigger Spock Leah. Why not? This isis. Nice finally news that the car company Ford is got a bed lane keeping beds. That uses sensors to nudge, bed huggers back to their own side. It's not going to be available to the general public though. Not yet. Anyway, I'm unin with the marketplace morning report live from the BBC World Service. This marketplace podcast is brought to you by Sunpro by Pitney Bowes, Sunpro online software makes it easy to save time and money, no matter what you ship or mail print shipping, labels and stamps, right? From your desk and access discounted rates. Try it for free for thirty days and get a free ten pound scale when you visit PB dot com slash morning. That's PB dot com slash morning.

Airbus US Europe Tom enders BBC World Service De Beers Germany Sunpro Pitney Bowes China PBA UK Pitney Bowes Brogham university of Bristol Emily Mr. Anders Europe Ford
 Booming blooms: how algae are turning the alps pink

The Guardian's Science Weekly

15:41 min | 6 months ago

Booming blooms: how algae are turning the alps pink

"The God. It might make you think of green slimy scum floating ominously in your local pond. Batelco. Plumes aren't just found in lakes and lagoons. Recently reports of pink snow on the Italian outs had scientists asking questions about what role he might be playing on glaciers and ice sheets. In Greenland. Studies have also shane the turning the ice different colors, ranging from pink to green is increasing the amount of light, absorbed and ultimately accelerating melting of the ice sheets. This, rapid melting, all say provides new slushy habitat for many species of alligator thriving. Potentially setting up dangerous climate feedback, labs. So, what alkyl plumes tell us about what we're doing to our aquatic environments from the oceans up to the frozen heights of the Alps actually notice look like dust on the ice surface, and when I looked at myself microscope, I realized they were actually algae, and that's when we started to realize that there were large blooms growing on the surface of the ice. I'm Hunter Devlin and this is science weekly. To find out more about Algal blooms I spoke to Marian yellow a professor in aquatic, Microbial College at the University of Bristol. This week we're talking about algae and I wanted to start off by asking you for your. Description of what our key is, and what it encompasses talking about it in a scientific sense. Yes, absolutely. Care very large and very diverse group of organisms. We think that there somewhere in the region of about seventy five thousand different species, but not chalet with all the advent of all the genomic were we now know that there's an awful lot more stacy's and they range enormously in size from the ones that you see on the pond bridge going even smaller to the microscopic species that might be living in the war tab pump water in lakes and oceans, and then right up to the very largest of al-Qaeda seaweeds, which could be of the order of maybe eighty two, so said in some of the coastal regions like the Pacific coast of. Those in South America and I also want to ask about Algal blooms, which is something that we hear about often in a negative sense why kind of sounds like they've grown out of control? Is that what it means an of critique? Take me three how they staw, and how long they last for blooms, a used in a very generic sense suffer year, different species about gable bloom different times of the year. But the ones you often hear about two one two costs out of control a might, for some reason be doing some damage in the environment, but actually blooming is a normal part of the life cycle for many species. When the they have particular condition, sweet conditions that enable them to grow very rapidly. When the combination of BEV requirements, resources are appropriate, they could reach very high numbers. Some people would say as long as there's a thousand South PA- milliliter in the war, CIA that that would constitute a blue, but that could be outputs. Say Two hundred thousand. Now recently we've heard of reports of Algal blooms on glossiest on snow and ice in particular the. Reports of Pinks, no appearing in the Italian Alps due to algae living Guinness now. This isn't an entirely new phenomenon by the sounds of it, but why it we hearing more reports of Algal blooms, appearing on glasses on snow and ice places that haven't really been traditionally associated with Alli. Yes, we all hearing more and more reports. Partly, that's more. An increased awareness of the presence of these organisms for example. The first time I went onto the green an ice sheet I was going to be focusing on these depressions where large amounts of Seth's material collect on the ice sheet, but actually notice what looked like dust on the. Surface when I looked underneath my field microscope, I realized they were actually algae, and that's when we started to realize that there were large blooms growing on the surface of the ice nausea, nate as well as in the depression holes. I sold type, made a wonderful discovery on the Greenland Ice Sheet, but I attached turned out when I went back to the old records that were records of these is sally in the eighteen seventies in some of the earliest explorers like Sven. Pick run an out of. Guilty with a documenting the presence of days Nathan realizing that they could. A potential threat to melting of ICE. A, as you've said, this isn't to knee phenomenon and clearly one part of this heightened awareness. But. There have been reports that the climate crisis and increasing temperatures have had a part to play in the rising number of planes, including toxic blooms in lakes nations. As the ones on ice and snow. So what the number of Bloom's tell us about what's actually happening in the environment? Should we be worried this an indication when we getting an increasing number of blooms, all over the planet, the their systems at a out of balance that something wrong, some of the requirements that are very important for our coast, the key things like nitrates and phosphates. But also they have a requirement for being in the right. Some PH environments and they need to receive enough light, and it's a particular combination. Of nutrients and the right temperature, the right light level that will enable them to proliferate, and I think one of the reasons why they're being reported more of to now is that as the snow is increasingly melting, so you can get accumulations of says. I'll. Be Concentrating in higher biomass. Wants to move on and ask how the presence of these. Species my effect. They're kind of rate. The ice and snow melting, and whether it makes any difference of the snow has become Pangkor, some of the other colors that the algae for cheese. Yes indeed newcombe have surfaced snow blooms such a green, but commonly with finding oranges, pinks on the snow on the only swift, finding a a brown purplish pigment, so these extra pigments that the I sal gay produce a really protective for them because DNA. Less light to actually reach the car fell, and they can still synthesize, but actually a relatively low level, even though the light that's hitting them can be very high, and there's I sal gave devote an awful lot of their resources into making these extra pigments. Bought whilst that Severi, good thing to enable the algae to survive. It can be very detrimental for the ice melts. Because, it affects the surface reflectance. The I'll be. On the surface of the ice and originally used to think that dust was the main thing, but we now know that these I sound gay have an important component in effecting I sound be. It sounds like the science of this is just emerging, but one of your recent studies on the Greenland ice sheet found that there was high alkyl abundance. It contributed to an additional nearly two centimeters of water per day by darkening the surface of the ice was absorbing more radiation a melting more quickly. That sounds like quite a significant amounts. Is this something that people who studying the rights of melting her factor, Denin, in models and Projections of how long the Greenland ice sheet has got left. That's been a loss of work modeling, the surface of the ice sheet looking at the past few decades in terms, said ice sheet melts, and accumulation of snow on the surface of the is and more recently that we've begun to consider whether we could include the I sow go pigments. They occupy a relatively small area. Area on the Ice Sheet, but the warriors the task the surface Albedo changes. We're getting more liquid water on the one thing we know. The algae have an absolute requirement for. Is this liquid water? So that could mean that the expanse of the blooms on the surface would increase. Maybe it would favor other species as well to come in on colonize the surface of the ice. And these algae considered actors sentinels of climate change, and so it's very worrying. We've talked about the impact on the melting of snow and ice, but what about the ecosystem at lodge and? Other any benefits for by diversity in these frozen regions, or is it a bad thing for the system as well? Yes. I'll keep proliferating and increasing amount of carbon, being fixed columbanus available as food resources for other organisms and scientists are currently investigating that to see whether the ice hockey rush Leah Palatable food source, but that might not be as catastrophic impact on our sheet Melton. Increasing sea surface levels, however, if we think about some of the blooms that are happening in other ecosystems like the Great Lakes twenty cents off, fresh water is locked up in the Great Lakes. We're hearing more and more records Van Blooms occurring. Because of all the runoff from agriculture, way have the perfect conditions to reach lost. And they're talking about looms, full miles, extensive miles of gross in our oceans, and some of the Great Lakes and they can have catastrophic effects. Another possibility is actually that some days might have toxins some can be. What they call blue-green algae with. She signed about Tyrian in the great. Lakes one cool MC persist test is reaching very high concentrations, and that can often contain a toxin which is toxic to a wide variety of organisms, and then there are other harmful Algal blooms. You've probably heard about the COSIES red tides. And so actually the problem is enormous because we're seeing records of new species that we didn't originally. Associated with a talk -sity. Sunday seemed to be on the rise and. Whether that is the result of long-term accumulation of nutrient soul, releasing substances into the water bodies, which can cause an ever increasing number of blooms, but the problems are very challenging for anyone managing these water bodies. Because of the she escaped of the problem. I wanted. Have there been any attempts or were whether? Any ideas of getting rid of the algae. Whether anyways you could do that. I mean I've seen elsewhere have been some sort of quite radical solutions covering up snow in tarpaulins, try and protect it for mounting wondered if anything similar had been tried with theology. I think it depends where they are. In a loss of cases, they are very important for helping to mitigate against the effects of climate change in increasing levels of c. o two, and there was a classic example back in the eighties, which involved putting ion into areas of the southern ocean where we used the nutrients were really. High key nutrients for outgrowths, but the algae won't growing very well and a guide Mawson famously. said that If you could show me of our Levine and I'll give you an ice age He was predicting that. On limitation was the reason why you went getting the algae. If you put on in the oceans, the algae which grow, they would proliferate. They've been enormous amount to sear to take cannot society to synthesis. Bought the big concern about that is the some you'll bioengineering. You're manipulating an environment where you don't know what the consequences will pay. And what's likely to happen? If you were to put chemicals on any of these blooms and in a way to try to control the more increase the Modique decrease them is that you change the biology, you will change the organisms and always be something else. That can survive under those altered conditions, but it might be a spacey's assistant, perhaps such good food resource. So it's, it's dangerous to try to manipulate ecosystems. So complex, and you don't know what all the knock-on consequences are in the food chain. But unless we do anything really to try to reduce the acceleration temperature. I'm afraid. The their lifestyle that lifestyle may not be an option to the future. Thanks? Sandwich Marian not being fascinating. K. Thanks again to Marian you can find links to our knees. Stories on the environmental impact of algae on the podcast page of the Guardian Dot Com. We'll be back next week, see. For more put costs from the Guardian just go to the GUARDIAN DOT COM slash podcasts.

Great Lakes Greenland Greenland South America Batelco Hunter Devlin Italian Alps shane Marian University of Bristol professor hockey BEV Pangkor Alli CIA stacy Bloom nate
Dr James Nobles (Pt1) - Systems approach | Ripple effect mapping | Social network analysis

Physical Activity Researcher

47:31 min | 4 months ago

Dr James Nobles (Pt1) - Systems approach | Ripple effect mapping | Social network analysis

"This is the physical activity researcher Podcast, a podcast for researchers of Sedentary Behavior Physical Activity, and sports join for a relaxed dialogue about research design practicalities, and well anything related to research learn from your fellow researchers useful and relevant information that does not pay into formal content and limited space of scientific publications, and here's your host researcher and entrepreneur ticking. Welcome everyone before introducing guests of today's episode I would like to know just few things. Physical activity researcher podcast is committed to promoting equality and diversity in all its activists. Including selection of guests, we have limited resources to scout all crate researchers from different groups of people. So if you know someone who should be as guest in the podcast, please ask this individual to contact us directly. As another team I would like to ask for your help being able to deliver this podcast you. Is based on how many people find starts listen and follow this podcast. So I would really appreciate little help promoting this podcast. You can do this by subscribing. podcast on twitter retweeting tweets sometimes, and maybe even giving good rating. If you liked an episode and now it is time for the actual show an introduction of our crate guests of today's episode. Welcome everyone. I'm very excited about the guest of today's episode I saw his tweet few months back asked if he would be interested being guest. and. Now, we managed to find time for this recording. We are going to be talking about promotion with whole systems approach and how to improve how we communicate physical activity guidelines to the public. So, they should be relevant for anyone working with a promotes. Our guest has done his PhD at Leeds Pekka linked to childhood. Wait many management. He did his post doc on the Public Health England whole systems obesity program. Currently. He's working as senior research associate at University of Bristol. Ladies and gentlemen. I'm honored to introduce a guest Dr Sam snowballs welcome James. Hello Dolly Yet so to start off with, could you tell us more about your personal and professional background? Yeah. I mean I think you did a really nice job of summarizing that beforehand. But just from a professional standpoint I. started. Working in predominantly in the field of white management about ten years or so ago that. Is called a white management practitioner I work for an organization called mobilize So that was all leads on. It was really on the back of the applies work that I started to get a little bit more interested in the reset side of things, and I was looking to secure funded PhD opportunity at Leeds Beckett. University. One of the things I wanted to explore within my Ph. D. was how families engage within these white management services because we knew. This are quite prone to high levels of attrition on I. Think That's not just the that's not just relevant from the point of view white management that's also across the board. So my PhD was looking out some of those reasons for these high attrition rights and then trying to identify opportunities to improve those services in order to be able to increase the engagement throughout them. However. As much as I loved all of that research I was very aware that it was. Quite focused on individuals does a lot of challenged I think as well within. Set of such as that was around health inequalities because in health inequalities, because what we tend to find is that. The people who might benefit most from their services at least likely to engaging them equally, if they do engage that that most lights dropout their services. So I was really quite keen to move a little away from whilst keeping some of might reuss involved in it but to move away from these individually focused interventions to try looking more south the systems in which we live. In does is you mentioned before when I was able to do a post doc on the public health systems obesity. It was in that we're able to work oversaw the three appeared with the by eleven different local authorities to really understand all of the different factors if you lie. Which is situated around people that influence the health status. And so is kind of bone out of all of that I develop disinterest in systems approaches. I'm not really then followed through Ryan to the present time now. And hopefully we'll talk more about that as we go it I'm I'm so yes. So I've been moved slightly away from the field of white management. I'm more into the field off physical activity working with some brilliant people down Hristo. But still very much keeping focus around systems or practice. So some of this default talk about today is pregnant week move, which is a whole systems approach to trying to increase physical activity, Gloucestershire and then I've also done a little bit more. Specific Bristol which as you said before is looking at how we can improve how physical activity guidelines. Communicates the public. The way which that develops designed isn't that they're actually intended to be consumed if you live by the public that that full healthcare professional. So he wants to improve the as best. We could provide some recommendations for how to improve communication. And if we if we start with the systems approach, I think quite many people all people off familiar with it. Could you could you give a short introduction to systems approach? Yes. Yes. So I think. There's lots of research now that's been coming out in the last decade a decade or so which really suggests of noncommunicable diseases. On the high premise physical activity, the high prevalence saw say obese. Health inequalities more broadly all of these things are the products of the places that we live We grow within the people that we interact with the jobs that we have the places that we play. So does all of these different factors that are influencing an outcome such office states our outcomes such as for example, aw status. So a systems approach he's trying to do is. Just, trying to understand what many of those different factors are. On its then trying to identify places within this system to really intervene and change how the system works a which works around the the individual is more of a population based approach. So you try and to identify these ways. In which you can change how those systems. To really try make the more conducive posing things such as a healthy waste environ environment or a more physically active environment. I guess that's the the brought gist, the positions approach but I think one of the things that differentiates it from more traditional approaches within I guess health promotion. Is the trying to work with multiple different stakeholders from lots of different sexes. So this isn't any more just seen as the responsibility primarily of public health teams, but he's trying to draw on the wider expertise of people who in the context of fiscal activities. people who might work in transport who might welcome planning. Drawing on the expertise in the skills of the community actress seeing how they come effectively engaged with communities more broadly. So it's really harness all of the expertise say of those wide sectors to bring them all together. And to identify ways in which I said before that they can then try to change how that system works. So we're moving away from these individually focused interventions which predominantly tried to change behavior and when trying to shift and intervene in these systems, which essentially creates a population level outcomes, Jesse's levels of physical activity that we see around today. and S S an idea it sounds really good. How how do you implement that? How succeeded in in we can move project. I think it's as worth me saying than I am not an implementer of these hostess approaches one of the things that. We dates that leads back university. The thing that we were commissioned to do by public health was to create Essentially guide on the set of resources that would enable these local authorities to. To develop that own whole systems approach And we developed the asset over the course of about three periods and so. Whilst I'm not necessarily an implementer per se of these whole system, the practice we have been involved in creating tools that enable authorities under the organizations to be able to do so within the HULCE's Beastie way. We ended up pulling together. It was a six phased. Process, which went from the very outset which was all to do with. Ensuring that local authorities of the senior level support on the senior level in in order to really commit to something like a whole systems approach. But knock commitment isn't just commit from director of public health it's coming from. Say the heads of other serves the heads of other organizations say trying to get this joint commitment right from the very outset. They do want to work better together in order to walk around a common outcomes, physical activity or obesity. And then they were like five or the steps that followed did not that process the enabled local star Song. To To develop assistant fresh identity. Want me to go through any of that though I'm happy to talk very briefly. You're. Up Please, please do. So I guess just talked about that then was solved the first phase of this systems approach. But then some of the faces that followed on from that within the second phase, it was trying to understand what is being done at the moment. So from local authorities, point of view organizational point of view it might be looking at. Okay. So who are the key stakeholders that we already work with around physical activity who the key cycles with around obesity? What's their role within the system while they tried to achieve? Trying to understand what? The key driving force occupied because the idea is that you allying are you trying to create these mutually beneficial actions and endeavors I? It's not everybody's working to. Improve. The infamous Rhonda Beastie, but you might have multiple different Aims if you like the collectively can be what's gotTa. So there's a real nice pattern onset. Long. Since which talks about the substance dynamic of ob stay on nutrition and climate change saying how loss of the actions that we might take forward in the future a points for you might actually be able to really influence those three outcomes assembled tenuously. Just go back to the whole system to price ESTA. So it's understanding what people doing right now understanding what their actions are. who the people are, what the accidents might be so on. So forth. Then beyond. The third base was trying to enable a cross section of stakeholders to map out what that system looks like such a that physical activity system look cycle they're obese genyk system. An enduring that you create these insure everybody seen them. You create these systems maps and I think systems maps in the past may perceived little bit sticking that they can look incredibly complex and highly overwhelming. But one of the key things I think with with in doing something like systems mapping is actually the system's mapping is an intervention in itself because it helps to create these mindset shifts amongst individuals who attend these workshops because they start to see that she may be they do have. An opportunity to to work with. Patients around. SAY THE FISCAL TO TO SYSTEM I'm they see that it's no longer just about trying to get an individual's go through a physical activity sessional getting individuals to have a healthy diet. Actually what they start to see is that there's all these other factors that are influencing somebody's physical activity states saw that White, status. And beyond that, the fourth and fifth is that really about trying to identify with not systems math when we did not system trying to identify these points within the system that they might be able to intervene. On which she submitted a paper not too too long since which is a tool that enables. Stakeholders to identify these different levels within the system, the amount On a lot of the alliance with the system science should that's Historically been available around interventional frameworks in the work of meadows. Twelve places to intervene within the system. So we've tried to simplify some of that system signs theory into a tool that can be used as saved by by stakeholders by practitioners by post to his Roth than just being reliant on researches. And then the final phase is all about. Seeing assistance approach this continuously evolving. Thing this continues evolving ends to which needs to be reflected upon time as it's reflected upon then you can start to adopt. Your approach in order to the kind of information data on the learnings that you're seeing time. So that's that's the hostess. IPC protesters been outlined by public health England, and I think what we did see within not piece of work is that We actually the eleven local authorities to try and implement that. Many of them were able to work through that process, but it takes an awful lot of time to be able to set some of the key foundations up such as the the stakeholder. Sorry. The the key. The key senior leadership buy in that takes a long time to do. Equally, it takes an awful long time to actually stotts into being within these systems different places. This podcast is sponsored by Fabian a research device that has been shown to be valid in trucking sitting standing, physical activity, and energy expenditure. Furthermore FIBI has been shown to be valid categorizing physical activity into light moderate and vigorous intensity. In addition to scientific accuracy, Fabian provides automatically produced and easy to understand reports for research participants. Get scientific validation and learn more about fibrin at FIBI DOT COM Slash Research Fabian from researchers to researchers. and. This was for obesity DC working the same food same way for physical activity promotes or any other other similar thing. Yes the way in which I guess the way in which this was position I think this is why it's so relevant for this conversation day is that That process in a way, we'll be quite useful for almost any complex isn't even after the health outcome, just a complex outcome. So something suspicious justice, activity, Timothy, all of those steps that we talked about. Before beforehand, if somebody's looking to adopt a systems approach dot process would absolutely be. Useful from from that standpoint, and so what we started to seniors that organization such as. Active. Plus the share and their approach, which is called week. Starting, to adopt elements of that whole systems I've used it project that signed to adopt Adams of that process in that that local weck around physical activity. So. It's absolutely golf vacation beyond. Say that the talk around obesity, it was just commission to orientates ourselves around and so it's six different faces and you said that it takes awful lot of time some of the phases would you see as the most challenging faces and and why is that? I say it takes an awful long time. If I just put in a bit of the context. So we worked with I think seven local authorities and we tried to kind of move through some of the or at least get to the end phase within a nine months time period so. It takes I. Think it was on reflection. In Western with seven local, they said, it would have been beneficial have more time in a wet through those. So with regards to your question in terms of which elements might take a bit more time as I said before I think. It's the amount of time this required to. Expose. Get some of the initial buying from the wide sectors. and. So it's all good and wealth. This might come from all led by people in public health but actually in order to make assistant French work, you need to have the really thorough by in and the commitment from those broader sectors. Investing lots of time in relationship building. Continuously I guess nurturing relationships is something that's fundamental within any approach getting falls and I think that's the bit that does take a loss of time a lot of continued energy in all its failed to do. So. That's one aspect that takes time, and then the second one is probably. Around the actions. All the interventions if you like that might come about because. Assistant approach. Some of the. Somebody's actions they might look very different to say your traditional public health intervention so you might start to. In a traditional public health mindset, you might be delivering these behavior change intervention so We all know about these kinds of things like running initiative saw couch five k White Management Services in the field of IB stay by that quite. I know that there is a lot of. Time required in setting those things up, but they're very easy to monitor that varies to evaluate the very easy relatively to get funding for but when you start thinking about actions within the system. Does not necessarily always an evidence based behind some of the options that you might want to adopt. Such a good example often action that Michael Mrs Approaches that you identify that you need to increase the cohesion between a whole host of different stakeholders working in your local area. Now, that is a really strong intervention because it's the to try increase these relationships between key stakeholders that work within the system but actually, it's very difficult to get funding for something like that. It's unlikely the against to be able to see a benefit in. The levels of fiscal benefits the levels of white northeast. Costar. Improved relationships between stay called the so. It becomes really quite complicated when you're looking at actions within the systems. Yet dot com take a bit of time to work through. An in order to keep the continued buying as a set at the beginning. And and you have been doing this in this week in move approach. What are the best? Sake learnings from from this project. What have you learned with the systems approach? So we can move that. This is a fairly recent piece. I. Think it started out in two thousand fifteen is led by an organization called Active Gloucestershire But. So they an organization that's very much trying to dry full this systems approach around his latitude in that county. It was only a couple of years ago that Last April when they commissioned the University of Bristol. So I'm involved initial Fox's involve Sabi redwoods, involved Jagos involved and they. They commissioned us to do this evaluation that doing and right from the very outset. One of the things that we went looking to measure because this is this is a guess captured within some of the broader measures despoiling Lyndon site we would expect it to be monitoring. The levels at the population prevalence of physical activity we knew that that was too. Much distance outcome and not what we to do folk on what proximal things that might be changing. So what we were able to do within this evaluation we come move is really I think this is what's quite novel. Is Developed Some Different evaluation methods to to support the evaluation off week. So we did use some traditional. Approaches. So we all using say semi structured interviews. In order to understand fair perspectives of all these different wider steak that work within the system. But. Again, all of those semi structured interviews, they are very much underpinned by. System. Science so When not just concerned with Say Looking at a no mechanisms to an outcome arising where wet concerned with looking at how does like we come move? How does that? Promote you to change the way you think about problem like physical activity. Oh, how does? This week move project. How does that foster these relationships between different people in the stake at within assistant? So even within these traditional methods tried to tweak them silent but I think some of the things that have been fairly exciting to do within this Jay Talk. Methods that we've used such as sexual network analyses. This thing called ripple effect mapping, which briefly about we've also you systems maps in a way in which we can stop to. So we visualize what that system looks like. But then what we can do is stop to Ov- allowance that systems maps. The different place in which we can do is try to intervene and so then becomes this active tool that enables them to continuously reflects on the approach that taken to question whether or not. The right approach an end to identify into being as well within the system in different places. So that's again, it really called central. the evaluation. Just. To go back if you want to. Some of the methods that was talking about like the ripple effect mapping. Please please do. We know. Of So. It's quite difficult within systems approach to almost predict what the interventions if you like to look like and subsequently what some of those proximal. Outcomes also might look like. You don't necessarily have a predefined way of working. So does a lot of these Interventions that my intervention actions that might emerge from ABS say a meeting the happens all something along those lines so What this method cold ripple effect mapping it was to do it say qualitative form of a outcome evaluation. On what enables us to do is to. Understand all of the activities that have been undertaken say throughout the cost of eighteen month period and then working wins like working within the off participate workshops that we facilitate. was then able to speak with different stakeholders to try to understand what some of those why the impacts of being involved in this work has led to. So just to give you a really simple example does that a bit of a in a very local area within Gloucestershire? On, it's all to do trying to. Over very long time, increase the opportunities for women in particular Muslim women to be active within the community and so when we did this ripple effect methane session with them, what we found is the. A couple of these say multistakeholder events that happened within this intervention. Product of those workshops happening sorry approach meetings happening with all these different stakeholders, the identified the local legislators Didn't really have any women's only sessions available or they didn't have any opportunities for just women to say attend something like swimming. And sex three ripple effect mapping what we're able to do is to. See this these wider impacts, Kiss. So what happened was? A group of stakeholders they went in. They went on met with this legislative displeasure provider, they had sation with them to three guess open that rise bit some of the challenges that Muslim women might face in trying to access this clutch opportunities and then what happens a project that was that they actually put a female lifeguard into post they start things such as female only swimming sessions, all female early swimming classes, and so you can start to follow these wider impacts on and on and on and that legis into has been engaged throughout the last twelve months and they start this off more and more these. Women silently all female only. This collectively sessions which you wouldn't necessarily bail to. Capture through more traditional outcome evaluation, and so that's what this rip mcnabb's to do is to. See how something unfolds over time, we can then look at how long does it take for these kinds of things to occur while some of the benefits of is there any financial benefits for example, how many people are engaging in these different activities? So it really broadens the scope of an evaluation to start to capture some of these intended unintended consequences that come about because of said interventions I think he's been really really useful within devaluation forest. It it sounds like a very, very interesting. So I. I. will just recap if I understood it correctly. You study the undertaken activities actions within the project and you will you will then have all different stakeholders and you'll be interviewing or discussing with them in party for the workshops and then you learned that. What what changed, what what kind of action had? The Jane's in in different different things. Yeah basically that's that's it. The. Nice thing about this and it links with especially some of the the system's mapping so that your your visually documenting this type of data so it's not just through interviews. You're working within these. Let's say small subgroups wellness drawer out how say one thing led to another thing happening that led to another thing happening. And so you really build up these quite complex. Diagrams in a way of of how these various different impacts, the kid and some of those impacts go far. Physical activity, they might start looking at Improvement in education outcomes, that school may have upset because of an intervention has been delivered within that setting. So you start to really demonstrates from the wide outcomes have come about because of these these systems based approaches. Yeah sounds really interesting. That was a good good simple example. Could you could you tell an example which slough off of wider chains like maybe a little bit more complex example? Yeah. So I think this. This is where I get quite interesting. Then comes down to how people value Cetin outcomes but. We know that within the the system science one of the most difficult things to change within a system. The attitudes and the beliefs of the people who make the system work in the way in which it does. And so does that make sense? And so some of the key stakeholders them within state local sources could, for example, pizza. Counselors all your heads of different types, different departments. And so. Some of the things that have been able to pick up through this report mapping is we have been able to evidence how these mindset shift starts to come about in different organizations in different counselors in different. Lead within the local authorities because when you start stop see does mindset shifts. occurring. So when I'm talking about his mindset shifts, meaning that that the broadening the ways in which they think about physical activity and the things that make Kohl's these low levels of physical inactivity, start the low levels of activity to occur starting to broaden the way in which they think about this problems, and you can then start to see these key leaders that she stopped talking to each a little bit more on then they might start to develop. A program between many of them make sense which has more power to change how the system works. And so good examples of this say. subgroups all these senior leaders coming together to just just to work as a collective around the physical activity environment. I'm talking I'm talking now in quite. Thames. Because these types of examples are a bit more abstract and they. Loss of things come out these. Multi. Meetings if you like That you might not necessarily always linked to physical activity. It might link motor transport agenda might leak multi an environmental and climate change relations agenda. I'm I'm just trying to think the same time at. I'm pulling. Slightly escaping me. It'll come out L. combat tonight szucs. There's lots of things have happened. Yeah. Yeah. No I believe and and then in the in the notes you're saying. About Barra Dignity Jealousies, we didn't working the system supposed. Could you could you tell about more about those? Yeah, I think it's One of the simplest. Pirate Matic challenges that we have is around the the level of evidence that might be required in order to get an intervention. delivered. So in more of a a traditional again, and these I'm talking about teams traditional public health mindset. I'm very aware these changing all the time but in a traditional public health mindset and all its commission something like a white management savvy saw physical activity session. They might want to see. A very strong evidence base behind those settlement inventions because then able to go to whoever it is this giving them the money and say, well, does this really strong evidence to suggest that this intervention lead to these outcomes? Not Evidence that when we look at like the hierarchy of evidence. They tend to be. The gold standard free set in more of a medical. Sense is like a randomized control trial to abide randomized controlled trial. And so all of the research funding if you look at the Big. Research, funders that we have a lot of research pay. Two Thousand Sixteen which evaluates this. They sold about seventy five percent of public health research funding went into the evaluation these really. Close, close individual level behavior change interventions, and so if the vast majority of our research funnies gang into pretty much these individual level behavior change interventions. Then that is the only evidence base if you like that is going to be available for these policymakers, practitioners in those valves, implement Cessna interventions. So when they start wanting to think differently about say different options that I might. Implement if the held to this. Need for a really really strong evidence base and we know that Avenue spacey slightly skewed because of is in favor of randomized control trials then it becomes really difficult for them to build the case full. These alternative types are on interventions actions purely because they haven't got. An evidence available even if we look population level Bucknell site physical activity policies h really difficult to evaluate some on the population level policies through something like a randomized control trial, we might use in like a natural. which in research hierarchy, it doesn't always have the same waiting a something like a a randomized control trial. So we've got these really quite complex chimes I think facing which ultimately have impacts upon the types of. Thus ought delivered within love. Calera, all the types of things that are suggested we seek to change through policies. The pads that makes sense. Yeah. That does make all the sense I. I can clearly see the it's very difficult to make randomized controlled trials with we've complex intervention. So you can tweet design a study that would would actually. Tease out the effect of of certain part though it will be really expensive. So I I can. I can fully. Follow that one. Do You Other other challenges with. Working with the systems across. back to one of the things that you. Sorry Saying that only the have been some really really good studies done. So Australia in Victoria, they've around evaluating sites systems approaches. Within districts Victoria. But one of the difficulties within systems approaches that going to look very very different in every single place that they are implemented in. So even if you evaluate them through these. Highly controlled designed you might have a controlled districts and then you've got your intervention district, which might be offensive assistant approach. That assists pressure looks so so different in all of the different places we haven't implemented equally. addicting. We can understate the the role of light the contextual factors within all of those different areas at the starting point from which these systems approaches are being delivered will will be very, very different dependent on those areas that implemented it. So we might be able to use some can lock I. Know Steph twitch design we might be able to use. A cluster on too much control trial that extraordinarily expensive to do on a lot of these systems based approach trash. The implemented by practitioners impose make almost without some of the input if you like from research is not condemning. So it's it's trying to find a bit more of a bounce. I. Think. Kim, and it's not research visits. Practice I think is how can research what Bessette with practice now comprises with research to evaluate some of these more natural. Intentions if you liked option implements which I think assistant approach would sit with him. Out went off on a bit of a tangent but I thought that was quite an important point to to make yeah. No, no problem at all. This podcast is sponsored by Fabian. Vivian is an accurate sitting and physical activity tracking device and analysis platform. It is a great tool for projects that aim for behavior change and sedentary behavior and incidental physical activity. fithian provides easy to understand PDF and web browser reports for participants. Other features include comparisons to recommendations, linking results to health risks, achievement cards, and interactive goal setting tool. In addition, fithian provides an API that allows for easy integration to other systems and applications. Learn more about Fabian at Fabian. Dot Com. Slash Research. Fabian. From researches to researches. So you said, the system approach results will look different in in different places. You tink weekend find out some kind of trends that we can generalize between different regions or dating. It's it's just totally different in its place we redo this coach. I think those does approaches won't be very different within different areas. However, some of the wet England run the governing bodies in the UK they are. They have commission I think fourteen or fifteen of these things that calling local delivery pilot. said that old across England. On. That's basically a lot of money that's gone into these lead players to help them to implement a systems approach to physical activity I think through those kinds of opportunities in some of the ways that we're doing what we. Do is that might be these outcome measures around physical activity taken over a long period of time. But if we have really solid process evaluations, all of these systems approaches may be drawing some of the tools that I was talking about. Earlier if we have these silly price valuations I, think what we are able to do is stunned some of those key characteristics that enable some approaches to maybe wet Basson. Another approaches says something that's coming out really strongly within this evaluation that we can't move at the moment is the fundamental importance of ensuring the community very much. Of A loss of the West is taken votes that humidity involved in the development of ideas that involved in trying to understand how the system works. involved. In actual implementation of these ideas guy full, it's. Something, that's really really key within this piece of Wacky Yeah I think when we start to draw on the landing from all these different areas now our value. Are Implementing Systems approaches I think we will then start to see some common trends if you like between approach to being implemented. I. Old Time we have these more. Proxima comes that we might be looking at so I think such looking at. The results of sexual network analysis and understanding. The relationships between these key people in the system? Whether those improving time is just imposed in. some of those mall longer timeout which might interesting you the population levels of physical activity. So, we've got to be very mindful of how we value the the success of these systems approaches. If we're acknowledging that say the outcome itself is the a highly complex system on May take something like ten twenty years or so to really start to see a shift within Om, we've seen that happen within the field of smoking. And and you mentioned the social network analysts. Do you do that also kind of discussions? So how howdy how do you build this kind of how do you do these kind of analysts? So the sexual withdrawn share on a lot of work that's been done in other countries around say evaluating systems are precious to childhood abused intervention said the stuff in the states it's been done stuff in. Again Australia. Has Been Done. So no way in which we have tried to understand these these social networks is actually by survey So what do within these surveys to understand in a way? If, you send this out to your keys, who you perceive to be key stakeholders. You can then start to ask them who the other stakeholders that you work with and how strong your relationship with this. To Wife's than do you have a mutually supportive goals? The working sue is physical activity something that impulsive to them, and so through these like multi wipe surveys, you're able to stop building pitcher off who the key players out with didn't. The fiscal activity system unequally condensed us when the stunt. Well, what happens if say? Individual out here like this. Chief. Executive officer what happens if that person? All of the sudden leaps his job while moves to another area than is there is there enough? Other relationships between everybody else strong enough that the approach and continue without somebody like hit been him all has been involved. Yeah, and and about the systems approach utilisation in different parts of the world. What what what do you see that Wiscon-, threes are are leading the work utilizing this systems approach in different kinds of health promotion. I'm think I. Think she wet wet doing. Quite well, I. think There's been a lot of from systems approach point of view. This quite love money in an energy that has been invested within England around systems of practices, development tools, and resources. But. Whenever I. Guess I'm writing an introduction to a paper. A law of the the research would be sizing is coming from. The Australia's through Deacon and Steve. Islanders grooten. Equally Buoyed Swinburne over New Zealand that doing an awful lot of good. We're trying to understand the policy context and how that the complexity of policy. On the ways in which might be into being. An all set of some really great wet been over in the states. So that's the kind of. The evidence, you like all the places that doing quite sluggish amendment on I'm very sorry of missed out some areas the. Are also. Just, just trying to think, yeah. Yeah. No problem probably you don't know all the countries how That's probably understandable. Do you have something before we moved to this physical activity communication guidelines. Do you have something you'd like to add for this systems approach discussing? Not Really I. Think. This is very much a growing area and there's been an awful lot of. Interest developing in this area without within the last few years I think it will very much benefit from a broad range of research isn't practicians posted makers see engaging in this and bringing in some of that expertise I think from just a research standpoint methods that we would be able to draw from a whole range of different disciplines that they're all available out there but they haven't necessarily been applied in these contexts yet. So when I was talking about Rip Lafayette, my thing dot something that's used quite. Often within mark consultancy based organizations. So we have a look more broadly what methods being used, and we was trying to ask the question what will help us to answer the research questions that we have around the evaluation if we come move and that was one tool if you liked that we saw that might help us to to answer those questions. I'm with NATO, adopted these methods time so that the become affect us. So I think there's an awful lot of that can be done from a methodological standpoint within the. Of Systems approaches. and. That's where after we can really draw on the expertise have made some people that are listening to this. Yeah and if somebody listening this now gets interested about systems approach what kind of organization since you you'd like to call up rate and what kind of. Collaboration with benefit you the you the most. I wherever we are able to. Wherever, we're able to to lend from how the people getting about the evaluations of these approaches for me. It's one of the key things is understanding what other people in other areas doing how. Adopting methods, dot for me a really useful thing that we could be doing. One of the areas that I think is. Really. The I'd really like to see becoming more involved in these conversations is actually like health economists on trying to understand the role that health economics may be able to play within something like the evaluation assistant approaches on how do we? How do we stop to? Address address at the wrong word. But how'd you start to? Go into some of those conversations when when questioned about what the resettlement investment something like assistance. To help some answers to some of the really key questions I think would be very, very important. ENJOY THE EXPERTISE OF HEALTH ECONOMISTS in shaping those answers would be invaluable. That that makes sense and probably it's important to collaborate with different fields that we can find like you said that those the environmental things are important in inactive commute and so. Thanks for joining us this week on physical activity research through podcasts. If you like this show makes you never miss an episode by subscribing or follow the show on twitter. This podcast is made possible by listeners like you. Thank you for your. If you found value in this show, we would really appreciate rating apple podcasts whichever apple us. Or if In real old play simply tell a friend about this show. The great help for us. We have a fantastic lineup of guests, forthcoming episodes. So be certitude. Thank you all for your support. Have a great day.

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 From the archives: the fate of Arctic sea ice

The Guardian's Science Weekly

32:35 min | 5 months ago

From the archives: the fate of Arctic sea ice

"The Guardian. High produce a madeleine hair. Whilst most of the signs weekly team are taking a break, we're digging through the archives. If you didn't catch choose days episode in sample explode the psychology and ethics of something that's being discussed to knock during the pandemic, the behavioral science of Nudge Theory I'd really recommend listening after this episode of course. As many of us have been enjoying as best, we can the sweltering heat that they summers brought. Soaring. Temperatures have also been recorded in the Arctic. The Arctic is heating twice as fast as the global average with temperatures. Now, having increased by about two to three degrees Celsius suits the pre industrial period. One Siberian village Katanga hit twenty five degrees on the twenty second of May usually having daytime temperatures of around zero degree Celsius about Tom the. Now a new model has estimated that the Arctic could experience sea ice free Summa's soon as twenty thirty, five. This troubling trend was something signs weekly tackled back in two thousand sixteen when IAN sample delved into the crisis faced by Arctic Sea ice and alongside a host of experts explored some of the potential ramifications of the total disappearance of Arctic Sea ice. Enjoy the episode we'll be back on Tuesday next week. See that. The area of the Arctic Ocean covered by ice reaches annual low this month of summer in the northern hemisphere draws to an end. As of thirty August extent of Arctic Sea, I stood at four point four, seven, million kilometers squared cording to the US national status is Status Center in Colorado. Means Arctic Sea ice. This year is on track to fall somewhere between the second and fifth lowest since satellite measurements began in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, nine. The recold minimum was witnessed in two thousand, twelve devastating year when Arctic Sea ice fell to a low of three point, six, million kilometers squared. So I'll sixteen is unlikely to be a record here Arctic Sea ice continues to climb faster pace than the average of the thirty years from one, thousand, nine, hundred, twenty, ten. was. Arctic is so important. How does scientists monitoring extent? Fate. What will happen when it finally disappears with? But other than that things are fairly well set up I mean sample. Weekly starting out of an atom starting. Let me call you back. Okay. Yeah. See Section right there. Joining me in the studio to pick this complex web is David Schroeder at the center opponent of Modeling, Reading University, Peter Waddams, professor of physics at Cambridge University and the Garden Zone Environment site editor atom born, and down the line we have Jonathan bamber professor fiscal geography at University of Bristol. We have a number of Arctic veterans with us today. Before we get into the science I'd like you to paint a picture for our listeners what the Arctic is actually like and PT. You probably have more experienced there than than most what's it like there? What has changed enormously over the past forty, five years when I first went to the uptick in nineteen seventy. Then the most of the ice in the Arctic was very rugged. It's. Called Motiur ice, which is many years old. It's really thick it's a more than three meters thick with lots and lots of pressure ridges which are huge mountainous features. Stick up several meters above the surface and may be fifty meters below. So it's extremely rugged, really difficult to walk over very, very impressive if it feels like looks like a solid permanent cover. But now nearly all the ice is first USS is which is less than a year old very thin and these riches don't exist very much. It's a different scene completely it's just not anywhere near as impressive or beautiful as it used to be in the seventies. Jordan you go there every year I believe what do you think when you turn up that? What's the sight that greets unlike patriarch most my researches revolves around bland is the stuff. Grounded on bedrock and this year I was in small boat, which is just off the northeast coast to Greenland and I think one of my overriding impressions is a really beautiful environment. It's a beautiful place to be, and I always love being up there and I, was there in February. You would expect to that still optic winter. The Sun's just come. Roy is nothing. Is Getting dark at about three o'clock you'd expect it to be pretty bitterly cold that time of year it was actually slightly warmer than parts of the UK in February we had positive temperatures we had we had snow and ice melting in February in small bought, which isn't isn't unique, but it's pretty unusual and you know he's a big surprise for me when you're going to remote Arctic island in winter and it's actually quite mild. Give us your impressions of the Arctic when you I turn up there like the. First. Time in two thousand three as a PhD student and did some flight measurements for four over trump's tweet and I was impressed. How different is can be so enormous variety of fat quite thin ice. Pieces of ISO around the Ice Age and car is glitches and and how it can change his voice was unbelievable. Interesting, we videos on flight measurements very, very low by Physi- I surface or on twenty thirty meter us and the veterans and pull up quite fighting our by plane. When we went along, there was quite an impressive sight. Home. Patriot new book farewell twice I guess is as much. A memoir is anything else did y'all fascination with the Arctic really began? Yes it's been the title is meant to symbolize two things. One is that the isis disappearing and sets the farewell and the other is fair world from personal point of view I started really nineteen seventy, and in fact, by accident that I think the way most there were very few people working on CIS in Nineteen, seventy, nine, nineteen, seventy, one. International Conference in Iceland on Sea ice, which I think the first one of held and about one hundred people turned up, that was the entire global population of CIS researchers. So it was very, very nice to be working on CIS. Then because you had lots and lots of problems and very few people working on them. Really started because I really liked going to see them wanting to be an oceanographer. So when I got my first degree, I was lucky enough to get a job on a Canadian ocean graphic ship that was circumnavigating the Americas was the first time. That's the only time that's been done and so we started out from Nova Scotia and went down to the Antarctic and that. Was when I first saw CIS down in the Antarctic we were doing some measurements of currents and then we came up for a long long through the Pacific and ended up going through the northwest passage get back to where we started from and working through the ice in northwest passage where we got stuck a couple of times, it was really interesting and very, very beautiful. Then I thought this looks like an interesting part of oceanography to work on. So I, did my. Work back at Scott Polar Institute said it was kind of accidentally I'd looked forward originally to being an oceanographer and cruising around and tropical seas sunbathing on the deck and so on. But that hasn't been possible Jonathan can come to you. I'm interested in why Arctic Sea ice has become such a focus of attention for climate scientists. What is it about Arctic? Sea Ice that really grabs. Your attention for you guys well. One of several of my colleagues described Arctic Ci says the Poster Child of the climate change community or climate change. Sohn's because it's one of the biggest most obvious signals of climate change that we have during the satellite recode which goes back to around about nineteen seventy-eight. We've seen a decline in optics. The is perhaps according to some evidence unheralded lost fifteen hundred days. So, it's a pretty dramatic signal on it's pretty unequivocal signal. So Warm the planet you melt ice, and so it's a pretty clear response to warming. That's taking place in in the Arctic at a multi scale has become a focus for environmental groups to why is that? Do they have different reasons? I mean every year around this time of year when we get the minimum. Is often used with it's a record or not in in two, thousand, twelve and two thousand and seven with particularly bad as as rallying co to our Akoto arms by environmental groups, and I think that simply because. It's very simple. It's very a lot of climate change impacts of caveats you know they'll be more precipitation in some parts of the world and others will be. Higher Crop Yields, lower crop yields in different parts. So often with climate change quite complicated by its nature and it varies around the world and there's a lot of qualifications that come over and that can be quite hard for you know people. Who are trying to motivate the general public and then politicians as a result do something about the problem? So I think the climate change and It's quite simple. You know you change the roof of the world and look at the pictures and you look at the before and after of the long term average. If. It's quite simple to understand I think. The. The the polar bear is probably the most most overused I would say I. Climate Change and and people care about that, and then you know the the green groups know that. So that's why I used to make make it an annual event. We'll come back to the whole question of why. Shukeir even if we should. But before that David, can you give us some thoughts on what we know for sure has happened to Arctic Sea ice in recent decades can we put numbers on the decline on how much it has shrunk? Why we can mish over declines as evidence with the minimum size accent September thirty, six from seven, eight, million square kilometer in the eighties to use. Between four and five or even three point point six and two thousand, twelve silhouettes evidence of attack was that happen the more tricky questions actually why and this is not though straightforward to us because they are i. mean. Obviously you could say, okay, it is it is climate change. So it s we increase of two and but it is a for this guy to. Answer it is a bit more complicated. So but measurements alone can tell you tomorrow it has by it has shrunken because beside the climate change whereas also lots of variability on different times kids silver the Israeli ability from you can have a few holidays. It doesn't mean with climate change. What we have is hot days is. Fairly ability on on on the timescale of days in the internal abilities, we have all my Coda. Yes. Nothing to do with climate change and visitors always also happened for, of course, is Levy heavy ability vizier ice has been for example for two years ago there was an increase in comparison to two thousand, twelve to. An the extent and there's always, is it more complicated variability Decatur Times but therefore, we have models and this actually helps us and based on size. For example, in the model can can keep the CO two level at constant value and check what kind of the ability does model. Does does happen and under certain circumstances. So from that based on that, we can actually attribute at least fifty percent of your observed change to climate change the is isn't indicator and improve of climate change but not with hormones over is a lot of uncertainty about vis vis variability, which we have to to consider as what are the methods that are used to measure the decline in see is there a whole suite of different measurements that are going on that attack it from different angles at the end the day it's a lump of ice and it's not like measuring a Subatomic particle maybe it should be. In the lady maybe fairly simple to measure while I mean for. The is V easiest quantity to measure because since. November seventy, eight from satellite we can actually derive is the is area and for the extent of the are we ever since mainly covered by by sea ice? Uncertainties vis vis numbers are quite easily to measure. It is, of course, much more difficult to get the Uber means you need vc I- sickness Oh in the Bottom snows cut in the positive only some some some very few measurements possible from from submarines, and then to to do I for for total volume just from point measurements is quite difficult. s only recently, we have requires measurements over the last five years. We do have at least for winter half from. November. To April, we have have distributions overhaul lactic from from CI sickness, but quite amount uncertainty Peter these new technologies helping put some accuracy on the measurements of the thickness and therefore the actual whole amount of Arctic Sea. Any given time you do the measurement? Yes. Finally look back. One of the problems without is was that it was always possible to measure the area accurately because. Even. The earliest satellites could tell you the difference between white and black in terms of where the ice was but it was really the the submarine city neighborhood, the thickness to be determined, and this has made a huge difference because in both in in modeling sea ice, and trying to understand what was going on what was being seen especially in Summa is a shrinkage of the sea ice by a few percent per decade. So the whole is cover is shrinking area. But nobody was aware that that was accompanied by much more rapid thinning of the ice until we started working from submarines and. Starting to do that work in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy one, and when we came to move recent submarine work in this century we found that. The thickness was declined by more than forty percent at about fifty percent. So the average thickness is fifty percent less the average areas, fifty percent less. So the volume in Somma is now only about a quarter of what it was in the nineteen seventies. So this tells us that that the disappearances is much more rapid than we thought of each me because it's it's disappearing from the bottom up as faster than dissipating from the sides inwards Jordan others, thickness measurements a key part of this is really measuring the extent enough. Well, as Peter says, it's it's the volume the you really want to know about and without measuring thickness, you know what the volume changes are. A little bit more complicated, three different types of measurement. You can make just make a measurement of area, which is says his is relatively easy to do satellite measurements, but you can also measure concentrations. So that is. Within the area you have areas of open water called leads, and you can measure the fraction of leads within the coverage while. So that gives you total concentration and you can measure volume and really I think the single most important parameters volume, but concentration and. Area give you an indication of changes as well, and they're all related. So we know where we are with Arctic Sea ice as of thirtieth of August. When we're recording this, we've got something like four point, seven, million kilometers squared of Arctic Sea ice. How do we then go on to predict what will happen to see us I mean, David, you worked models particularly the Los Alamos model which you call. What is a model like that saying about what will now happen to the ice? That's there while you have to kind of model you. So if you're talking about a global climate model, today of the ice model is one part of it. So we have atmospheric model. Model and lend of model enter enter entity is model that we can do this kind of models to do climate scenario. So what were happened in the next fifty or one hundred years which are a lot of these kinds of of fully covered models and. Report you get when you can lead actually how they produce what they would use for. C. is to help happen in the next fifty one hundred. Yes. You can leave of. Of all models. Declining twenty in in the eyes and at some point, Arctic Sea ice will be will be is is is free. But of course, this is going to happen something between two, thousand, thirty, two, thousand, fifty according to the model output from latest latest report. But as I mentioned before the populists are two things, which is the variability which is quite strong, and then of course, for between and so both together as gifts actually, which is also, it's mighty possibilities as the Arctic Sea ice extent can actually be summarize flee earlier, but as relatively unlikely, but if it being. The next years, but it is, of course, a very some uncertainty in that one important thing is that we are working on this actually how can be improved with BIS models to be accurate and looking which processes are important but which are missing in the models and two might focus on our work to put in new physics into Perc- is model to include more of processes which aren't partners foresee as decrease and help to equity in future for. Climate Simulations Peter NFL twice you predict the the May disappear completely from the Arctic in September Two Thousand Sixteen we're now in September two thousand. How sure are you? The DOT might happen don't actually predict that in twice on saying is tate will be happening very soon much well before twenty. Thirty. Though are motos to protect. The ice to summarize would disappear by within the next few years that turf for instance, maslow's skis model in the US takes a lot more count of heating the ocean which seems to play an important role. So I I would say, obviously, it's not likely to be ice free this summer, but it could well be in next time the summer after that. But certainly, I think we to contrast the fact that it will be is fleet in in a very few years time in. September to the fact that many more does still have it. Remaining until the second half of the century. So I think that the there's a big disconnect between some models and the way in which the observations are showing that we're going pity you've made these kinds of predictions before the Arctic Sea us will go by about two thousand sixteen since as far back as two, thousand, twelve and. There are clearly some scientists who think that's an alarmist thing to say. What do you make of that? Firstly, I've never actually said it will be in particular year and we shouldn't it. That's irrelevant in two thousand twelve you said within four years it was likely which put us at two thousand sixteen in your book and the instruction. Book you say by the time, the book comes out we could be the north. Polk be free of ice this yes. That that that's what I thought could easily be the case. So I would stand by that because I was buysc supporting the modeling word on from Maslansky, which had hitherto been changed very accurate in terms of its predictions I? Think I. Think the point here is that an and I I have this debate. with Les Friends and colleagues all the time science generally speaking particularly when it comes to things like prediction is not about binary it's not about a yes or no oil one, zero it's about probabilities and I think if you talk to the vast majority of people do numerical modelling at the climate system they entirely. That their model simulations are not a prediction, their assimilation, a projection, and they have a probability associated with. Yes. But at the same time I, think you should pay attention to find men's dictum that if you can have most beautiful model in the world but if he doesn't agree with the data, then it's wrong and. In. The case of behavior of ice on should go by the data and the data showing of strong downward trend in area, which will bring us to two zero very soon I personally find it very, very worrying when people attempt to do predictions or projections bikes relating observations because not sin in my view little nonscientific bassist you extrapolate a very noisy line. The more scientifically sound approach would be to use a model to try project what. Part of they clump systems actually going to pit. Would you agree though that your views are outside the mainstream for science now, I wouldn't do I think that in terms of people who actually do measurements on ice that is a mainstream view and I'd like to race what my is about if I can be allowed to do so. which is that what I wanted to draw attention to in it is not the this vapid retreat of see is as such that's that's only marginally relevant but the implications of the retreat of sea ice for other aspects of the climate system and I'm drawing attention in the book to effects such as the fact that the larger amount of open water leads to Wyoming some over the Greenland ice sheet that accelerates green die she melt which accelerate sea level is. Also the fact that that the warmer water around the continental shelves of the Arctic, in summer is leading to a thawing of the show permafrost and we're seeing launch emissions of methane from the off shore each each year that that people go out there and that could lead to a launch immediately post coming from the Arctic which would have climate implications, and also the basic scientific reason why we getting accelerated retreat is also the fact that there. Is a positive feedback to the Albedo change that as sea ice retreats we have a lower Albie toe over the Arctic in the summer and allow you to snowline retreat and that in itself accelerates the warming eight. So these are all globally effects which are related to see is we treat the doesn't have to disappear from the Arctic for these effects to happen, but you get why some climate scientists are disturbed by the predictions you may because. Some of the ones in the pot haven't panned out I. Mean you can. You can move the date onwards to next year always of course, you know not saying you do that but that would be possible. But some climate scientists will say that if you make predictions that don't come true that has a bad impact on the public trust in climate scientists, which isn't something anybody needs. Do you get that? That is their concern. Now I think it's the opposite and I think that the DIA problem as far as Makers concerned is the predictions based modeling alone. That's an update that the some assise were lost until late in the century. If you accept that then it makes everybody much more complacent. This is what Tends, to, happen, with, is, PCC is. that. And less. Less inclined to take urgent action about the things that we can do something about which as I really point out in the book is that we have to take some action on the global warming late which which. Involved not just reducing carbon emissions but that she taking action to directly remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere that's the urgency, and that's the entire for winter. My book is to say that that the retreat of Arctic Sea ice and the feedbacks associated with that retreat which are global show us that even if we try to reduce carbon emissions as per the price agreement, we won't be able to keep global warming below two degrees so we have to do these. Other things I, I mean I kind of I take real issue with Pod what Peter said I I think that making predictions more claims that then turn out to be unsubstantiated is very damaging for the credibility of the clamps onto community I think it's extremely damaging having said that I agree with him the what we should really be concerned about the Arctic Sea ice is declining and there will be some very serious consequences for the rest of the climate system. As a result of that and the exact date I mean I think it's unfortunate if we get too preoccupied about whether it's going to be you know twenty seven t know twenty, twenty five or whatever it is. That's not really the most important thing that we should be discussing and concerned about but I think it's it's really unfortunate and damaging say when when people make predictions that the? Turn out to be alarmist incorrect. Can we just wrap up this because I know we're running out of time by getting you know let's start with you. Jonathan to give some thoughts on why we should really care about this. If we lose take see is. It's not the end of the world. Why do we need to or should we need to find a way to prevent it? So I think we've talked about something called the Ice Beata feedback that sits really snow how a feedback and and so when Arctic Sea ice is removed from the Arctic Ocean, you have a very dark ocean there and the. Ocean absorbs a lot more solar radiation. So that's very positive feedback. In other words, the optic is going warm up much faster than the global average because of the decline of about see us and why do we have not well the the largest land ice mass, which we haven't talked about tool yet in in the northern hemisphere, the green dice sheet lies. At the edge of the optic ocean and there is a big area of melting around the margins of Greenland in some ready. And if you have a warming out to Koshin and Arctic. The Green Dye sheet is going warmer further, you're going to lose more. Ice from that landmass and that has consequences for sea level. The if you melt it the whole of the Green Dye sheet, you'd raise global sea level by about seven point four meters. Now nobody suggesting we're GONNA lose the whole of the cheat, but the green dye she already today is the largest single contributor to sea level rise, and so if we start accelerate that mass loss than than that has pretty dot consequences but a global scale David, any thoughts for me I'm the chew of maybe. Decline, of accuracy. Of Clemency overrated I. Think what really matters is, of course, the land is of narrates the impact of highs and forber. When busy is advantages Might be a bit earlier in two, thousand, thirty, two possible. It will actually go and winter anyway. So if you have. No ice and water at freezing temperature temperature minus thirty you go. Twenty centimeters is in one day if you have ten of is you you you go ten centimeters today if you have two meters of is you want centimeters today. So actually, if you don't have lots of is it goes quite quickly and some experts have also shown if the is has vanished but when of suddenly climate would become a bit view. Facility would decrease is would come back. So actually the point of the is vanishes might actually be not. So critical of would be much more important than when there is less wind as the is over the point of vandalism musty vanishes. Vanishes in August, not much sola ideation afterwards Soviet impacting heating the ocean it's more if the is would vanish in June, it would be difficult because when the highest amount of solar radiation students alive and it would have a big impact but actually just a couple of weeks is free and amount might be not really critical point in for Global Climate Peter we talked about how your book is partly a memoir it mean for you personally when if the Arctic Sea ice goes completely well, already Police in the fancy and in my and the ice was very much thinner than it normally is there. It was only thirty centimeters thick. It, was breaking up over time and there's no sign of be kind of heavy multi of is that we used get. So it'd be very much matter for regret if if the is disappears in a way, it doesn't matter because of some in some because it will be back again in the winter. But what comes back in the winter is much less impressive. Half and. That's what we have time for this week's special. Thanks to David Schroeder, Jonathan Van, but Peter Wardens and. I mean sample, this is science weekly. The only way that you can really try to put it into scale with human references if you imagine a Manhattan. All the sudden, all of those buildings just start to rumble in quake impeachable offenses fall over follower role around. This whole massive city just breaking apart in front of your house. For more great podcasts from the Guardian just go to the GUARDIAN DOT COM slash podcasts.

Arctic Ocean Arctic David Schroeder Greenland Arctic island US Summa Ice Beata CIS Peter Jonathan Colorado IAN UK Americas Status Center University of Bristol
Expert guide to conspiracy theories part 5 how dangerous are they?

The Anthill

41:55 min | 9 months ago

Expert guide to conspiracy theories part 5 how dangerous are they?

"Hello and welcome back to part five off the expert guide to conspiracy theories from the conversations and hill pulled cost. I'M ANA BOB lie. I'm recording this from my makeshift lockdown. Studio home. So Sorry. The sound quality is not quite what you're used to if you've listened to any of the other parts of this series. It is pretty clear that conspiracy theories can be dangerous. Yes many are entertaining but often what starts off as a bit of fun can turn Sour quite quickly. Even if it's laughing about the idea. That Katy Perry appalled severely minority in this episode. We are going to delve into some of the psychology behind what makes conspiracy theories dangerous. We'll also explore the relationship between conspiracy theories on the radicalization of extremists. And we find out the best ways to talk to people who believe in conspiracy theories once again all be speaking to a mix of academic experts Paul Comparative Analysis of Conspiracy Theories Research funded by the cooperation in science and technology will cost. I'm Steven learned. Ascii professor of cognitive science at the University of Bristol and my research mainly deals with all forms of misinformation. Disinformation fake news and conspiracy. Theories Stephen Dusky has written a number of obstacles for the compensation over the years. You can check out his back catalogue on the website. I wanted to speak to him because I knew he researched conspiracy theories about climate change being made up and I also knew that he'd been on the receiving end of a lot of abuse from people who subscribe to this conspiracy theory. I became interested in conspiracy theories because when I started studying why people reject climate change. Climate Science Became apparent to me that a lot of the rhetoric on the Internet that is rejecting climate. Change Involves Concert Oriel themes there are people there you know being very concerned about the world government of the United Nations and and whenever people mentioned terms like that then my sort of detectors go up and I figure I wonder if there is a conspiracy theorist foot and sure enough. I then ran. A couple of studies published two papers showing that there is an association between people who endorse conspiracy theories and who rejecting climate change and that's been confirmed now any number of times by other researchers and there is now really no doubt in my mind that there is an association between those two things. And could you just describe what the Association looks like makes this conspiracy theory? That's a very good question because the answer is pretty nuanced on the one. Hand what we can do. We can measure peoples belief in a whole bunch of conspiracy theory was jfk assassinated by the CIA. Was Princess Diana murdered by 'em Five. You know there's all these conspiracy theories out there and we find that people who endorse those series or who don't fully reject them even allow for these theories to be true. They tend to be more likely to say. Well I don't believe that climate change is happening or I don't believe that humans are causing so there is that association. Steve says the correlation is significant and reliable with lots of studies showing it over and over again and it relates to the phenomenon that we heard about impact two of this series that if someone believes in one conspiracy theory. They often believe in others as well. Psychologists call this disposition all conspiracy theorising. But what's interesting? Is that if you look at the rhetoric. On the Internet the prevalence of conspiracy theorizing in the context of climate. Change is much much greater than suggested by this modest association between disposition conspiracy theorizing and rejecting climate change. And so what I've done. More recently is to show that there's another way in which people invoke conspiracy theories and that's not because they're conspiracy theorists in the classical sense but because they use an appeal to conspiracy as rhetorical tool to get rid of inconvenienced science. What did you mean by inconvenience? Wow this is where it gets to be really interesting because we know from a large number of studies that the primary driver of climate. Denial is people's personal worldview or ideology. I can ask people for questions about the free market and if their response is tell me that this particular person is committed to free markets to unregulated for Ya Prize. Then I have a very good idea that they will also be denying. Climate Change The association between those two variables immense. It is very strong and it's also understandable because of course to deal with climate. Change what we have to do is we either have to introduce tax or regulations or legislation. We have to interfere with how the economy is being run at the moment. And for some people who are committed to this idea of free markets that is emotionally incredibly challenging and it is those people who find the science that underlies climate change extremely inconvenient. And it is people that if you push them into explaining why they think that all scientists agree on climate change those people will then appeal to conspiracy in my climate scientists so they will say things like oh they're in it for the money or the government is telling them to do it or they're all having a political agenda etc etc so all these conservatory things come to the fore if you ask those people to explain why the scientists agree on climate change. Steve says it's definitely not the case that everyone who doubts. Climate Science is a conspiracy theorist but pretty much everybody who is a committed. Free markets will reject climate change. And in so doing when you ask them well. If you don't think this is happening why do you think all the scientists are agreeing? Then they will deploy this concert oriel rhetoric as a way of justifying to themselves. Why they don't believe it. This is one way that conspiracy theories dangerous. They give ammunition to climate change than is and this has been influential in hindering efforts to combat global warming and is used as a rhetorical device very effectively. Because it gets you off the hook one of the wonderful things about conspiracy theories from the point of view that people spreading it is the daily. Explain ANYTHING ONCE. You think there is a conspiracy. It doesn't matter what the contrary evidence is because that evidence is always going to be part of the conspiracy to keep you from finding out the truth in other research. Psychologists have looked at what happens when people are asked to read conspiracy theories about climate change. They found it influences. How those people respond to this incredibly important issue Daniel. Jonas senior lecturer in psychology from Northumbria University in the UK told me about one of the studies. He ran so we find for example. Is that if you expose the idea that climate change is a hoax. That he's been fight by scientists the data it makes you less likely to Juche carbon footprint because you failed this allusion. Do you feel powerless. If we WANNA conspiracy why would I bother trying to reduce my carbon footprint? Considering we are close to serious climate breakdown with limited time to stop it in many ways it doesn't get much more dangerous than this researches like Daniel Jolie and Steve Levin Algae Consum- Times find themselves on the receiving end of abuse from Conspiracy Theorists. Steve shed some of his experiences with me. These are from hotline politically motivated conspiracy theorists. What they tend to do is they tend to focus on individual researchers who are new on the scene and who published something that is inconvenient or challenging to those communities and so when I published my first paper on conspiracy theorizing and climate denial. The response was pretty intense in terms of social media in terms of complaints to my university attempts to bully the Journal and the editor and the publisher and the American Psychological Society and so on and so on I mean it was just a a massive effort trying to suppress the paper. Because they didn't like it instead of using the conventional which is to write a rejoinder or critique or to submit something for publication that is analyzing the presumed problems in the paper and that is very common. I mean this happens over and over again whenever an inconvenient paper appears. Steve says it happened to him quite recently. In relation to a paper he published which outlined how climate denial blogs distort the science around polices of course powder polar bears relevant. Only because they've become this sort of iconic species that is threatened by climate change. You know we've all seen drowning polar bear on an iceberg. That's melting and of course they all are threatened. The scientific evidence for that is pretty overwhelming and no one who works polar bears things that they're in good shape but of course that doesn't keep deniers from pushing back against that and what we showed in the paper is how that was focused on just a number of blogs but not supported by any scientific evidence and the people who write that blog one person in particular took exception to that and then mounted this campaign against the paper by approaching publisher by making freedom of information requests. Which of course is favored tool of climate? Denial and it was complete fishing expedition. Steve is pretty resilient and he says the climate change. Denial lobby has for the most part given up on targeting him because they've realized they call billy him into submission but this kind of abuse can be trying the researches as just so tedious and boring and counterproductive and a waste of time and to be confronted with this. All the time over and over again is just draining that because it'll have any consequences on me ultimately about because it shows up time and it is just tedious. He knows lots of researches who have been targeted and quit as a result. Though they say well I don't want to do this. I've got better things to do in life and so in that sense it's very effective. I know people who've been driven out if academia certainly out of certain research areas because of the constant white noise and harassment from what's effectively cranks conspiracy theories are also at the center of a number of extremist movements. My name is Adequate Beckman professor of politics. The bitter student in Iceland Research. It's populism conspiracy theory on nationalism. Ourika has written a book called conspiracy and populism the politics misinformation. It's all about the recent proliferation of conspiracy theories and how right wing extremists all particularly effective at using conspiracy theories to gain supporters and to advance that political causes conspiracy. Theories obviously have been around for a long time and so has populism but recently the two have also be caught off. Been the AVALON's of fake news and cool mandating into something which we could call the politics of misinformation Ourika says populist politicians have capitalized on the rise in prominence of conspiracy theories in recent years. The outgrown used to studying conspiracy theories something on Francis upheld by this credited. Pick yours in the public discourse. That weren't taken seriously. The same applies to populists and what they have done. Is They have actively. And now from the position of power from the position of the mainstream apply it false information folk tales conspiracy theories to advance their own politics. Populist politicians start needs to believe in these conspiracy theories themselves. They don't even need to convince other people to fully believe them. Ourika says the main aim is to spread via and this is effective in rallying support their host of conspiracy theories but are thrown out there but the big one that one that populace have been able to Bryce on recently and comment position of power in many countries is the idea of great replacement. We touched on the great replacement conspiracy theory in a lost episode. On how conspiracy? Theories spread on message bowed websites like Reddit and fortune. It takes a different shape in Europe to North America but in both places it's underpinned by fairly of non white people taking over in Europe. The idea of you. Rapier eastern ocean actress in the Middle East are actively plotting to take over Europe. Aunt that they are sending to Europe and this regards flocks of their own nationals people of their own faith Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa To the West and that they are and this is the vital part of the conspiracy theory for political purposes. Is the idea that they are eight. Domestic collaborators traitors off the people who are covertly working along sites they conspirators to turn the best into on Muslim society into an Islamist order. Those set off the mainstream quite often social democrats that are seen to be these actors who are covertly plotting with the external threat. Populist politicians will not often promote this conspiracy theory explicitly. They don't have to. They clever playing upon these ideas that are already circulating and stoking what may will be the legitimate phys people have of immigration will society changing many politicians. Harold so very skillful in sort of operating in the gravestone. There because part of this notion can be critical concern of societies being changed through must migration that of course. It's not an itself a conspiracy theory but ben alluding to hidden actors being plotting to turn Europe of eight from its Christian heritage. It's too. Let's becoming a a Muslim society. I'm being aided by domestic elites that betraying the public. Then you have entered three hour of fool clefts conspiracy theories but other politicians almo- explicit for example in the Netherlands scooped wilders he relentlessly allude to this idea of great replacements and even wrote it fully out on twitter once that our society is being replaced and linked to of you. Go showing areas of Amsterdam dominated by Muslim people? His words unbend spreads by the mainstream media. Picks up his birds. They might not concur with what they are reporting. But they are reporting this idea of the great replacement Saw Credible victim it voice of prominent politician in the Netherlands. This happens over and over again. The brexit debate in the UK was also filled with references to the Great Replacement Theory reap fear of Turkish membership of the EU was reported by the mainstream media in the UK. Absolute input into the brexit debate. Even though the fact was pretty clear that the UK has done to one dish under same how to do with refugee crisis which was irrespective of the U. members of of the UK. It was still reported in the bay out. It was put forward by the politicians at the time. But just how dangerous is all of this? The real danger Ourika says is when these threats of invasion Taken literally by people who then fill the needs to take up arms and act so this relationship between populist politicians spreading conspiracy theory recent fake information on how it this received by more jelly say unstable actors in society. Factory relationship is very precarious and of course politician. racing concerns over his first notions of the great replacement theory behold directly responsible for violence actions off quite simply not people sometimes but the relationship is still there. Ourika points to the terrorist attack. Why Anders behring Breivik Inouye? Eleven th a grisly chronologies emerging from Norway after what appears to have been an elaborate and meticulously planned mass killing. The one suspect arrested is reported to have already admitted responsibility for the twin attacks. Britvic set off a bomb in Oslo. That killed eight people and then shot and killed sixty nine boys and girls. At the some account the young socialists a blitz the manifesto behind his action and it fight literally describes his peers off the great replacement. And they're in his own manifesto the works of many politicians over the previous stack. It's warning against you. Apia warning against the great replacement filters through there completely yet have the idea of Norway? Being turned into a Muslim society on the conspirators lark turning North into an Islamic state are being aided by the Norwegian Labour Party. And therefore he's a talk on the youth movement of the Labour Party. He saw that dust being a defensive of Norwegian Patriot. Protecting his country against these evils. You see a similar story with the motor of British member of parliament jokes in the buildup to the UK's Brexit Referendum in two thousand sixteen Thomas a white supremacist has been found guilty of murdering British MP and mother of two Joe Cox the forty one year old. Labor politician was shot. Three times repeatedly stabbed in her constituency in northern England a week ahead of the UK's in out referendum on e you. What's his killed by an extreme right wing terrorist Thomas Mann who was opposed to immigration and opposed Britain's membership of the EU. He viewed her being one of these traitors of the British people saddling the British people into the hands off the eagles. The whistle replacing the British population with a Muslim population. Same idea was behind the terrorist attack. Would in New Zealand and Christ Church in the toxin El Paso recently and many many other similar attacks the role that conspiracy theories have to play in. This violence is not political. But it's definitely a relationship and it certainly doesn't help that. So much of the language used in conspiracy theories invokes the existence of traitors in our midst and talks in grandiose terms of good versus evil. Steve Nevin Belsky says the violent extremists and hotline conspiracy theorists show a lot of the same psychological traits. So there's lots to learn from the world of counter extremism about talking to conspiracy theorists in fact. There's probably no radical extremist movement in the world that is not also involving a conspiracy. I mean most right wing. Extremist organizations are based on all sorts of conspiracies that is just part and parcel of extremism. De Radicalization. Extremists is a good model. For how to assist people who WanNa be assisted to come out of these conspiratorial rabbit holes big similarity is in the approach that both conspiracy theorists and extremists have evidence itself ceiling so when they are presented with any evidence against what they think this thing gets used as evidence of the conspiracy foot. If you feel that you know the government is out to destroy white people then whatever the government is doing. We'll be seen as as evidence to that hypothesis. Even if an actual fact that evidence does not withstand scrutiny in an independent assessment research shows that if you bombard conspiracy theorists with evidence that counts is that beliefs just gets their box up and can make them even more hardline in what they believe so breaking people out of this bubble is very difficult. I asked Steve. What techniques were effective and De Radicalization? The search we know that messages from former members of the same group can be extremely effective. So people who have left cults or extremist organizations have disbelieved conspiracy theories and then talk about their journey how they got to that and wide was that they gave up those beliefs building a rapport with anyone. You're trying to pull out the rabbit. Hole is also crucial. They've got to trust you. The other thing that can be helpful. Is that if you have the time to establish rapport with a person like that? You can appeal to their skepticism. Which is what most conspiracy theorists will tell you they will say. Oh I'm a skeptic I do not believe official accounts and that's absolutely true. I mean by definition. Almost you won't be skeptical of any official account if you believe in conspiracy theory instead. Well you can appeal to that. Skipped a citizen and just point at you know. Why don't you also apply that skepticism to your own views shelby together? Maybe try that out and see how how you go with your skepticism applied to your own views and again that sort of slow guided processing of encouraging people to be skeptical but not just one sided apply to both sides to their own views as well that has also been shown to be successful but of course all of that involves a long-term communication effort and a personal war yet because it seems going off the hardliners is going to take a lot of time and effort. Should you actually just focus on the people who are not yet I? I would definitely recommend that. I think the most important thing to do in terms of protecting the public is first of all talk to the general public explained to them where these theories come from. Explain to them ahead of time before they're exposed to if at all possible that they're flawed but they have negative consequences on society if they spread and so on. This is something that Karen Douglas Psychology Professor at the University of Kent in the UK has researched. She told me about the study. She ran on countering the spread of anti vaccination conspiracy theories so we try to test an intervention fairly small scale. Just to sort of try to get an idea of when you might be able to change people's conspiracy relief and it actually turned out that it was quite difficult to Jada and the early success that will add enjoying. This was what we called inoculation procedure. So that is you present. People with the correct or official. You're likely scientific. Correct information before they're exposed to the conspiracy theory than than that theory doesn't have as much impact on people's attitudes whereas if you do the other way around and new present people with conspiracy theory and then the correct information the conspiracy. Beliefs tends to stay there. Another researcher Iceberg Service studied. The Anti Vaccination Movement is eligible skaters the social anthropologist at Maynooth University in Auckland. She says there are lots of different reasons. Why people may be opposed to vaccinate and the reasons can differ depending on the type of vaccines and they can vary from country to country so opting out for the HP vaccine in Romania might be different from opting out from the HP vaccine in Ireland and different from opting out from the MMR vaccine and also for another reason. We will opt out from the Flu Vaccine Program. So this is something. I'm interested in that there. Is this one back at that? We throw all people who are somewhere on the spectrum of vaccine hesitancy we call them anti Baxter's while they have very different reasons and motivations why they will opt out at some point of their life. L. Around a big study into the attitudes towards the H. P. V. Vaccine in Orland the vaccine prevents human papillomavirus or HP which can cause a number of different cancers by its most commonly associated with cervical cancer in women. The vaccine was introduced in Ireland in twenty ten but girls around the age of eleven. It's offered as part of the school vaccination program and optic for the vaccine started off pretty high at eighty two percent. This rose to above eighty five percents in twenty fourteen but then there was a thirty percent. Drop to around fifty percent off tape in twenty sixty so a lot of medical professionals. They blame the strap on a group of parents who identified themselves as a regret grip and regret. Group is a group of parents who were pro vaccination. Ho Dead Vaccinates. They don't test and then experienced some sort of health issues and I believe that. Those health issues are caused by vaccinations They went public with the concerns. They were very vocal about the concerns. And indeed the growth of that group correlates with the drop in the vaccination uptight so the health service the H. S. E. blamed this regret group characterizing them as a bunch of anti boxes who are responsible for the drop in vaccination rates but other was interested in finding out why so many people were so quick to believe this group even though all the scientific evidence shows the vaccine to be totally safe. I think what is the most important is to pay attention to water. Those specific groups are actually saying so according to my health professional informants what they heard was fake news remorse non scientific messages which concern vaccines so for people. In Scientific Communities Anti vaccine are basically talking mostly about spreading rumors about Batz science and what I found out. Is that yes? It's correct a lot of information from regret. Parents concerns vaccination safety and concerns research on vaccines but a lot of the message is also concerns experiences with health professionals they experience of how institutions in Ireland. And this is something that is really really important for them. So is that like an issue of trust. It is definitely an issue of trust towards health institutions towards health professionals and he's also issue of positive or negative relationship between doctors and patients and Irish citizens who are clients of those medical services. And I think this is an issue that Irish public was receptive to not so much the big Pharma conspiracy theories but the stories of mistrust being failed by the Irish health system. If you've got a long history of feeling let down by a particular system. It makes for fertile ground to believe any rumors that stall talk about it. This is similar to what we heard in part one of the series about the conspiracy theories many African Americans believe relating to the US healthcare system for Irish women then mistrust of the system relates to the country having one of the most repressive reproductive regimes in Europe. Until very recently we often think that what was going on in Ireland was simply abortion bound right but when you have such a rigorous abortion ban it impacts all health services for women it impacts the way maternity car is provided it impacts the way sexual health is taken care of so that's one of the examples of the abuses of Irish healthcare system towards Irishwomen in Ireland lately. That's all gone now. And we ahead our repeal so you can think of it as something of the past but that was up until two thousand eighteen so women wear leaving in this actual environment. There is also a strong collective memory of institutions could mortal and laundries these were asylums that women who had children out of wedlock got sent to. They were signed to those houses to be reformed they were basically imprison kept their and those institutions madeline laundries though smart and baby homes where women were sent These were talked about as you know places for better length as places for providing Harry for those women were they were basically imprisoning them and mistreating them and Women also died us so you can see when people grew up in this environment and it's a small island. Everybody knows each other and people have those stories in the families saw. When the thermometer comes people will not just believe. Science knowledge is more than science and facts. Knowledge is also about relationships and memories and emotions and feelings. So it's not that people necessarily believed conspiracy theories about the HP V. Vaccine instead. They were quick to mistrust the state when it came to an issue of women's reproductive health. What make things worse? Ellis's is that these concerns will often not met with sympathy from doctors. Aldus Tommy's time collecting basically are stories of families who experienced health difficulties and they go to the doctors. They coming with questions thinking. I think it's because of the vaccine and a moment they verbalize that concern. They're being ridiculed dismissed and they often are being directed towards mental health services but when parents brought their questions to other skeptics they found a community that was ready to listen to them l. a. told me about one woman. She met at an event organized by parents concerned with the safety of the HP vaccine and we were sitting and she at some point told him you know. I don't really think that would happen to my daughter that her illness is caused by vaccine. She was smart enough to recognize that there was too much time passed between vaccine given and illness developing but she said that she was trying everything with all doctors. She had Tallinn's appointments and she felt that Irish medical system failed her. That there is no one interested in helping her. With addressing they issues the family concerns and they family difficult situation because those illnesses affect whole family's not just one person right so she run out of options and that was the only place where she filed one ridiculed her no one was gas lighting. Her and no one was telling her. Oh It's just in your head get over it. The Irish health system soon realized that had a serious problem sounds and it's actually been pretty successful at bringing. Hp Vaccination rates back up in twenty nineteen seventy percent of eleven year. Old Goals had the vaccine. They realized that the banking myths about vaccines does not work anymore. They realized that we have to find new ways. So fixing this issue and they looked for more progressive. Waste of dealing with that problem and one of those ways is from regaining the trust so they fought off new campaigns. How to rebuild that? Trust in vaccinations and I think they were quite effective because they used storytelling and storytelling is something. That is very powerful in island. Actually they mimic the tactics of the regret group. The regret group parents had told emotional stories of how does go ill after getting the HP vaccine in the parallel wiry health professionals use stories of healthy girls. Who took vaccine and didn't experience any damage. Who Wears telling a story of themselves of being happy healthy and bribing in a community and so giving a face of individuals of other women who were successfully vaccinated. The our health service also run campaigns with women who hadn't got the vaccine and Bengal Cancer. So there was one woman. Laura Brennan who suffered cervical cancer and who came to the agency and volunteered and said. I don't want that to happen to any other women. I'm Laura I'm twenty five from care certain things that this concert. A cervical concert is such a devastating story. Because it's a concert which mostly affects very young women at twenty four. I was diagnosed with Surf. Concerts staged huby. I was quite optimistic as there was something that could be done with. Chemo and radiation. There was a good chance that it could be cured to share it with Bach and things are different. This time. There is no treatment that would cure my concert. There is only treatment that would prolong my life since she went to agency and she said I want to tell my story and I want to advocate for the HP Vaccine. So that what happened to me will not happen to others. If anything good comes out I would hope parents will get their daughters tonight. The vaccine saves lives. It could've saved my like the other experts. I've spoken to emphasise that. If you dismiss someone as a conspiracy theorist will throw scientific facts of them. This tends to just push them away from you because conspiracy theories work as this kind of the science where people look for a new evidence new facts and they constantly research just like we do so for every argument. You will give them. They will find few others that for them. It makes sense so when we focus on facts about vaccines we will engage in a constant battle. About what are the facts about vaccines? It will be a struggle of constant debating and fighting an argument. But I think if we stop obsessing about what people know about vaccines if we stop obsessing about knowledge deficiency and we realize that people opt out of immunization programs also because of the trust deficiency because of changing patient doctor relationship then we will have to start fixing those other things and then conspiratorial beliefs will not be that important as we've heard time and again in this series conspiracy theories powerful when they play on people's existing is and beliefs they reflect depot concerns going on in society the extent that this makes them dangerous not only view to decide but more perspectives on conspiracy theories check out the compensation dot com on for much more detailed guide to dealing with misinformation and engaging with conspiracy theorists Steve Levin Dusky who was on this podcast as written a conspiracy theory handbook which is free to read on the website. Climate Change Communication Dot Org forward slash conspiracy Dash theory handbook. This was meant to be the final episode of five part series on conspiracy theories but the corona virus pandemic swept the world in the last. Few months has compelled us to do a bonus episode specifically on Corona Virus Conspiracy theories if you've listened to the whole series so far you'll not be surprised to hear that the crisis is called a bunch of conspiracy theories and many of them will sound very familiar. So look out for this bonus episode that will land next week on the compensation dot com all subscribed to the anthill. Where you get pocus furled. The animal is produced by Gemma. Wet and me Annabel bligh. The sound design is by elderly Stevens with original music by Nita saw thanks to all the researchers who spoke to us for this episode and the series so far special thanks to plant virtual pizza night and Michael Butter. We've helped bring this podcast interview also to the Cost Action Compact for funding Leslie. Thanks to you for listening goodbye.

Steve UK Climate Science Europe Ourika professor government Ireland Katy Perry United Nations CIA EU HP University of Bristol Stephen Dusky ANA BOB Steven Princess Diana
TMHS 407: How To Reduce Anxiety And Maintain Your Health During A Lockdown

The Model Health Show

1:29:37 hr | 9 months ago

TMHS 407: How To Reduce Anxiety And Maintain Your Health During A Lockdown

"You're listening to the model show with Shawn Stevenson for more visit. The Model Health Show Dot com welcome to the motto. Show this finished nutrition expert Shawn Stevenson am so grateful to me. We need today. This is very very special episode. We're on location at my house right now. Our societies experiencing lockdown quarantine. Many people might be feeling like hey calm right now. I'm locked up. Oh just like itching to get out and get back to a place of normalcy but really what our life experience was prior to. This is going to be no more. Life is not going to be the same after this but my question in my premise and my mission for us to come out of this better than you went into it to come out of the situation. This quarantine is locked down this huge societal concern better than when you came into it. And that's what we're going to be talking about today. Because messages have been flooding in asking me. What can I do about the anxiety experiencing the the added stress the uncertainty the fears that? I'm caring what can I do to just maintain my health when I'm not able to do the things that I once did? And the truth is being honest. We're locked up with all the snacks I this isn't like a song about the prison. This is leg we got snacks. Snacks snacks available at all times. And the Quarantine. Fifteen is a real phenomenon Hit by watch is just like the Freshman. Fifteen was a thing corentin fifteen. You heard it here first becoming on hot and heavy for a lot of folks but it doesn't have to now today we're going to dive in really look at what are some practical clinically proven solutions to dealing with the current state that we're in right now as far as our mental health and our health overawe. So I'm really excited about diving into this. And this is against guerilla style. Where have my house? Don't know what's going to happen chopper. Fly by you. Know the the governator might be in it. You know the Chopper California. So that might happen. The Dog I don't know but you're on this ride with me and I'm grateful for that so we're going to go ahead and jump right in here and again the messages that have been coming in have been overwhelmingly looking at like. What do I do about the stress? And about this loneliness that I'm experiencing How do I- modulate manage my health practices? Now that the gyms are closed. And I'm having issues getting the food that I want. So we're going to talk about all this stuff today. But we gotta look at and this is really what I do in my approach and with the Motto Hell. Show has been all about since the very beginning is. Let's not talk about the surface stuff until we talk about the route. Let's talk about the root issue because what we tend to do with our conventional approach to health and so many other things we try to treat the symptoms we try to treat the manifestation of deeper underlying things instead of removing the root cause. So the outermost symptoms don't even exist anymore because if we don't take care of the route we're GONNA continue to try to trim and pick off the exposures because these fruits that is bearing from our worry tree. Those fruits have roots. Unlv wants we read the roost. We won't have to experience a try to treat the symptoms so I hope that makes sense. And that's what I really look at first and foremost so right now. The root cause of our heightened stress right. Now what is it? What is creating this pervasive? Fear because it's not the virus creating all of this fear it's our perception about the virus in about how society is working in response to the virus are the virus definitely can have a component of fear. Tach to it. But it's how were reacting to it. Let me tell you what I mean by that. I think that this is really summarize in a quote from Chris Hatfield. He's an astronaut in former commander of the International Space Station. Ammann's dealing with outer space level uncertainty and fear are right now. What he said. Was this powerful quote. This really stuck with me. Is that the best antidote to fear. Is Competence the best antidote to fear? Is Competence Truly Understanding Circumstance? Not Because of what you're told to understand but because you're looking at multiple perspectives and right. Now we're being inundated by sincere sation allies media. Of course there. We do have some challenges right now that we're experiencing but for the most part people are okay but we're not going to report on that we do want to help the people that are not okay in the best way to do that is to come from a place of well thought out reasoning and a place of service which is very difficult to perspective. Take into serve as so many other people are like every man for himself right. Now when you're not in a place of true understanding of what we're dealing with and you just reacting to what the media saying versus having a true intelligent a competency and understanding about your actual risk in what we're dealing with so with that said let let's just give an example by the way so when I'm talking about is not easy to help other people every man for themselves right now for a huge amount of people. This is true and it's normal because when fear and worry and uncertainty creates this chemical soup in our brain it literally changes how our brain is operating. It can lead to instantaneous irrational behaviors. Like for instance. Okay there's virus going around. What am I gonNa Wipe my butt with? That's the thing coming up for people virus going around. I need some stuff to wipe my butt with tissue told. The paper apocalypse takes place. Everybody starts going around buying up. Toilet paper irrational. How important is all the paper on the hierarchy of needs? It doesn't make sense. Does it? Fighting BITING FISTICUFFS OVER T. P. Is the strangest thing. Says never existed in human history. I sure fighting over food I can. I can even get that. I can rationalize that but toilet paper very irrational. But this is that beer response. That happens in truth. It really came down to it. Toilet paper is such a lower rung of priorities. There's so many other things you can use. Have you ever used a baby? Wipe probably nice paper towels tissue facial tissue your significant others shirt that you absolutely hate. You know that blouse that you would rather from Hawaii if it came down to it you use it. Wash cloth all right right now when people are going ransacking. Gin Store shelves the same thing food but tissue is first food but the people are going for the non perishable canned goods ramen noodles that kind of thing the produce section the store was largely still intact and plenty of stuff to choose from especially the Greens. There were collards Galore. Swiss chard in abundance Kale in in droves are eight. They came down to it is Kale as the is it apparatus for clear behind. Noah's gross. I'm sorry but if it came down to it again. It's the way that we're seeing things a day. You can make a home grown day. You GotTa host. You can get your Buckley. All Right. Irrational. I gotta get tissue. I'm going to die. I'm willing to fight standing live for two hours to get. Tissue is irrational irrational behavior. My wife is from Kenya. She told me a story long ago because they didn't have a bathroom. They had outhouse basically kind of thing which was basically a hole in the ground. And like what do you use for tissue? She was like newspaper. I was like now. I was just shocked but this was just the nature of reality. They're like she'd never thought anything of it being in that situation. And how poetic would it be to take an article from the newspaper about people fighting over toilet paper and wipe your butt with that article as poetry available everywhere? I know this is giving away your gross but what I'm saying is our irrational behavior takeover when there's so many other options for things like that but it's like we start to get into his place of fear in hoarding and protection of self and not forgetting that we are all literally a human family. We come from the same. Dna this same human genome in even if there's all these ethnicities and there's all this other stuff if we trace it back even further we come from an. I'm talking about billions of years further billions of years further. If we take a Meta perspective of this thing we come from stars like this Supernova exploding and creating all of this stuff you are made of the same stuff that you look up in the sky and see. We're so much bigger than this. And if we get to a level of absurdity and stupidity we forget how remarkable we truly are. We're fighting over toilet. Paper as I digress. So with that said we understand some of the rational behavior or I'm sorry irrational behavior that could take over but best antidote for fear is competency coming competent in the subject. This what I strive to do. If you happen to miss the episode from a couple of weeks ago that I did on the pandemic situation the human viral talking about the truth about viruses and how right now your body that amazing body of yours you have over three hundred trillion virus cells in your body. If you saw a youtube you see I did the Denzel Washington fingers. Okay all right viruses. Don't have nothing or you. You're really made of our eight percent of the human genome is viruses. You're largely made a viruses. We have to have a better understanding of the landscape here. Of course there are pathogenic viruses that we interact with but our immune system evolved by basically viruses facing off against other viruses to develop in have the immune system that you now have today in even when you get a vaccination which is what everybody is looking for. The vaccine doesn't make immune your immune system makes you immune its immune system reacting to the vaccine which is usually a dead by restrain a weakened virus strain or some other version of the virus and then your immune system adapts to it your immune system makes you immune. We need alarm system. Works listened to the episode share with the people you care about received so many incredible messages. And I'm so grateful when people saying this is exactly what I needed. I was worried I was concerned. I had a lot of fear. This made me feel better. I've never seen a response like that. And I'm so grateful that I can be here right now in this time and to be a voice of science in sound reasoning for you and also again. But I can't do this by myself. The bigger conversation is still very challenged. Because it's hyper focus on the problem and not on rational real world solutions and so I need you make sure that you check the episode out and share with people care about so. Let's talk about how to address the anxiety that we would. Naturally any of us is going to experience and even because of social contagion this is a real phenomenon back by science you will feel anxiety simply by being human right now in this situation. We have to have practices because again you do not rise to the level of your expectations you fall to the level of your training. You do not rise to the level of your expectations. This is what my potential is. You fall to the level of your training. How have you trained yourself to deal when stress manifests itself because it will and so what I want? Encouraged to do is some very practical things. We have to have right now when it's easy to Were closed in. Were a con locked up. Were not able to go out to go to the movies to go out to easy to go. See Friends and family for the large part for many of us. What do we do to keep ourselves sane? Literally we can start to go a little stir crazy even if you go outside you still not able to live your life like instead. So what do we do to addressing Zaidi so very practical things? We have to have what I like to refer to as a mental treat. We need to give ourselves mental treats and we have to practice piece. It's so easy to be consumed by messages of fear. Just watch news. Some people are habitually addicted to watching the news. Right now to stay up to date with all the problems right which is highly sensationalized. Atia lies emotionally driven to keep you hooked. This is how is how the news works. Not just because of this is always works like that and so having that as a thing or dislike not a mental treat but like more like I guess mind. Candy are a treat doesn't HAVE TO BE UNHEALTHY BUT CANDY. Another so healthy but mine can't. Your mental candy is like going to binging on Netflix. Which I want you to. I have okay going. Knockout going bend. Watch the season. You know go do that. But we cannot allow that to consume our life. Either and create this huge distraction. And not have that time to really have introspection and self assessment in healing through this process because in one way or another. You'RE NOT GONNA come out of this the same no matter who. You are no matter if you're locked in. Or if you have an essential job referring to his essential job and you're trying to modulate in the world where everybody's walking around you in fear and wearing a mask and your sense of certainty in peace in the world is right so we all need these practices so we need a practice of presence of peace. So what do I mean by that? You need a mental treat as good for Your Spirit. Something that brings you back to you. Get you out of the external which is so addictive and get you that relationship developed with your internal. You live with yourself all the time. This is the most important relationship in your life in. Your reality always has been always will be but it's easier than ever to ignore. It makes everything harder in lives. If we don't address how we're interacting with ourself. A thaw said we have. How do we interact with those thoughts? That also producing. How do we produce better thoughts? So what are some things that we can do these again? Addressing the root of diminishing being Zaidi start with some simple things shivnarine. Yoku do simple. He's going to drop some Japanese force baby clinically proven to help to activate the para sympathetic nervous. Turn off the fighter flight. Go Walk in nature called Forest Bathing. Really strange name all right. If I saw someone forest bathing like from what my perspective would be have to make the `cau- you know nine one one you know. Somebody's bathing but as far as bathing taking in the natural environment right but I'm not snitching. I'm not I'm sorry but real talk. How often are you getting out and getting exposure to fresh air in nature? You need it. It's instant reduction in anxiety and depression and The stress related hormones. You can get some fresh air sun exposure. If at all possible listen to the birds you can still social distance. If you're afraid you can go to the nature walk. Keep some distance from your friend. Alright keep your distance from the squirrels. Wherever makes you feel good. But you need some nature okay. Number one another way to help to address in Baid. Some of this Anxiety is to have some quiet time. We can implement many different things within this quiet time within the space. Obviously Meditation is something. We've focused on here because all the tremendous science supporting clinical trials. Peer reviewed evidence of the benefits of meditation. I I did a meditation today and again like we're all experiencing this. I definitely see myself as somebody who's really done a lotta inner work to be able to be prepared for the stress that is around me right now and to be To be a source of stability and strength I feel it and I feel that pulling on me and I and I. I'm here for it. I know that this is why I'm here today. This Y I'm alive right now but I realized that that feeling you know so many questions concerns. I sit sets do my meditation. I felt some discomfort in breathing deeper because I I didn't realize I was breathing more shallow. The last May. I don't know how long so as really focusing on my breath and expanding my lungs and breathing breathing out. Get all the air out of my body. I can feel this information as even I'm saying is it's a very slight thing but that inner work you notice a slight changes but I could feel myself trying to clinch trauma. Hold on trying to not let go into be present into into understand that things are okay. It's just a slight thing where I'm holding on and so doing some breath work so meditation prayer would be great for many people right now. Some Tommy just go within and commune all right. We need that but also quite time could be a good book. I time with a good book. kick your feet up Listening to an audio book be great. There's one costly smarter. Her was really good Or listen to a podcast. Even if you're doing essential work in your in your car and you or whatever transportation you know putting those headphones on listening to something or listen on your radio car radio to something that feed your spirit that brings you back to your to your center. That remind you of how powerful you are. What can be more important right now? another thing is right now. This great opportunity again. I want you to be better coming out of this thing. Then you're coming into it. This is a great opportunity to learn something new but something that feeds your spirits. Something that makes you feel good something that excites you. That you're fascinated by For Myself NERD alert right now my son and I my eight year old son Brayden. We're watching the show on Amazon call. How the universe works. And it's I love it I love it is such a just powerful. Reminder of the grand is of things also how you know a minor are inflictions can be and to be able to take multiple perspectives. Just to better understand how all of this stuff works. Of course. I've studied a lot of this for many years but his great to have that like fit rather than reading a book. I've got books I've read from Einstein things like that. But you get this visual feedback as well so again you binge on something that also feed your spirit not just joe exotic but also things that feed your spirit. All right shouts to tiger king so these are all things that are are allowed to learn something new so maybe for you. It's a new skill that you want to develop. Maybe it's of course you WANNA TAKE. Maybe something for your coaching practice. Maybe you realize that. Hey this time. Nothing is guaranteed with my nine to five. I need to get a new skill. I need to start that business. That I've been thinking about decide. Preneurs thing that I've been working on I need to go full time into it right. We've got great resources from guests we've had on the model show will put in the show notes for you Jamal. King Pat Flynn Shalini Johnson. Andy for SELA so many great episodes talking about kind of the the the financial kind of career side of things so learn something new if you come out of this quarantine being the same person that went into it i. It's next to impossible but still just trying to hold on to the old you missing on a huge opportunity huge advantage because again this even when this is being recorded we don't know when this is over a lot of quotes this episode. But we won't know when this is GonNa be over the time line but also life as we know it will change but will it change for the better. That's up to us as up to us as a society to truly understand. What's at the heart of this thing? And how we relate to health issues in our culture all right so another thing we can do that has some clinical evidence. We've talked about on the model show. Some of the evidence back in his help but journaling journaling can be very cathartic to get the things rattling out around in your mind out on. Paper can be healing tool. I could journal you can kinda dictate into a diary. You know the twenty twenty corn team diary you know they might be popping book later on you know. That's another thing that we can do is start writing. You know do a writing project you got a book and you. You've been wanting to to write for many years may be. You've got a memoir. Maybe a fictional story. There are some non fictional information that you put together for folks and share from. Your experience is a great time to do it. Another thing that I'm doing with my son Brayden is. He's working on writing his first book right now. I went from being the host of the number one health. Podcast in the country speaker author Creator Different Programs Products Nutritionist to being second-grade teacher like that all of a sudden I didn't sign up for that schools. Close though to now in second grade teachers well you know my wife and our tandem. I like myself is. I don't know maybe principal now. She's a principal who marketed But what we did was we saw. He's parent through the work and getting done in like two hours which is a whole day of school. He'd be gone for seven hours. What do you do? I WanNa know what the school is doing with my son for seven hours when he's done into never mind so what we've been doing is taking some extra time in working on different projects right now. He's working on a book. A story right based on one of the characters from Lego Jaakko. He loves the leg on Juggle. So screen is story of Chi and it is story. There are pieces of relationship development of friendship perseverance. Distinguishing between right and wrong hidden agendas and then just sprinkle some Ninjas makes it all fun so that's another thing that we can do art projects you might be like. I don't have artistic bone in my body. I promise you do I promise you do is great for your brain brings us to the present some of us. It can be stressful okay to try to create art. But let's find some art that you don't feel stressed by maybe it's taken pictures you know. We all have cameras now But maybe get a fancy camera do it. Maybe it's creating videos. You know what I mean. Take Talk. It's poppy right now. Maybe it's painting. Maybe it's drawing many different things we can do to engage in some art creation. Maybe it's sculpting maybe watch ghosts back in the day in your life. I've been dying to like to do that. Whole sculpting Super Sensual by the way he hasn't seen ghost like what so anyways but I don't know what it might be for you. There are many different things that you can do to employ some art and help that part of the brain. It helps to kind of turn off that analytical worry thinking brain when you create alright it works now the next thing get a sip from the you can only see the words that are written on my last right now. I'm just going to say let that go. That's what it says right on my glass. Thank you. This was a gift from my good friends. Cynthia Garcia Lover. So the next thing we got here is exercise. This is huge. This is a huge player in anxiety. If we look at the clinical evidence and stress modulation we cannot allow ourselves to look past how important MRS researchers at the University of Bristol found. That exercise actually changes the expression of genes in the brain weight wet exercise changes the expression of genes in the brain specifically they noted genes that are related to a heavy influence on how cope with stress. Genes that have a heavy influence on coping with stress are in the brain when we exercise. Come on now. Our whole perception of the situation of the reality right now is based on. What's happening with our brains? We can literally exercise in Change. The expression of the genes in our brain related to stress to reduce the impact that the world is having on us to fear the worry. Dan Certainty that leads to irrational behaviors are so that's one thing another one. This is a study published in the Journal. Frontiers in psychology reveal that lifting weights help to reduce symptoms of anxiety for study participants. This is specifically noted to reduce anxiety better or at least equal to some of the most popular anti anxiety. Medications Exercise Your Body. Your genes expect you to exercise. We need it now. The question is what do we do? What if your lifeline was the gym? That was your Mecca. That was your therapy session going. Jim The gyms are like no no no no no. You can't come here now. What will you do well? This is again providing a great opening an opportunity because the reality is for many of us. We depend on gym equipment at the gym. Some people seen a barbell in weeks and they're already like they can taste their gains. Leaving writing tasted in their mouth gains dissipating. You don't need the Barbell in order to maintain and create gains all right but this is creating an opening for us to realize that if you have a body you have a gym if you have a body. You have a gym. Your body is a great tool for resistance training but our mission is to become more physically literate during this situation learning how to use our body in creative ways to create resistance to get those benefits like snow noted in this study her frontiers in psychology. All right so obviously hallmark exercise push ups for some people kneeling pushups. Crushes them for some people regular push. Ups is just not enough. Like I do these Dacian on what about if you do a centric super slow coming down explode coming up. What if you elevate utilize gravity to make it harder? Put your feet up on a stability ball or a chair or you can go so far as putting your feet up on the wall to get completely vertical in. You're doing handstand push ups. Mr This is too easy. There's so many different tastes that we could do creatively with our bodies to add resistance to it that being said there are wonderful implements that we can have and you might be in a situation where all you've got is the two little princess dumbbells too low five pounders. The pink may be low blue Lou. Five pounders Lou. Gram awaits notice respected. Grammy Okay Me. Meemaw Momo Popo Papa. We have lots of different names for our grandma's in Grandad's there's some grandparents killing their right now as far as the physical fitness. They can outlive many of us. Let's be honest now with that said we might find ourselves. All we have these little baby weights. Are we call them? Beta weights this. All we got this is a this is a an opportunity to see like Oh wait a minute. I need to have some form of a weight implement for myself so that no matter what happens. I have some something. I could do resistance training with again. You don't need it to survive but once you have a physical like awaited implement. It provides us hundreds of different exercises. We can do if you've got one kettle bell. This opens a door for dozens. If not hundreds of different exercise we can now do or add to exercises that make them more challenging or creative and so even a body weight squat can take that that template like body waste. Wasser too easy. I'm not getting that muscle stimulation fuse one leg one leg. You like. We'll maybe I can't do one leg. I can't do the pistol squat. I promise you can different levels to it. You can use a chair and his one leg squat right. Come using one leg sit down. You can use a something. That's kind of like a support. Find a poll. Maybe it's on your front porch or to staircase has a a railing like you hold on that and do pistol squads juice cold onto something to lower yourself and come up. Right is becoming more physically literate. We HAVE THE KETTLE. Bell can do sumo squad so he can do. Turkish get ups we could do snatches and swings so many other things right but these pieces. I've been accumulating over years now. I'm not the guy to go ball out on gym equipment. I've just been picking up a piece earpiece there there. But a lot of my. I've been so ahead of the curve because of the people that I'm connected to on this thing is the new thing right. And I've got steel clubs and maces primal bells the primal bells kettlebells with these cool like renting phase. In like the the chimpanzee the howler monkey this little one that my my youngest son uses in also I can use for different things as well but I get these from on it now. Trooper told people are getting the mental. And they're buying up these kettlebells like crazy. They're out of right now but they still have available. Steel Clubs Steel maces. Get yourself one of those hurry. I recommend to get the light. One do not be like object. I'd knowing the big one no you don't these the way that these things are designed credibly challenging to us and so on it also has their programs to take you through show you how to use these different things that got free stuff online but I highly recommend. Get yourself a steel club still mace. I'm telling you right now. You're going to thank me later. go to on it dot com for slash model. That's Oh in an it dot com for slash model. Get ten percent of all their fitness equipment but also they have some incredible supplements and foods and things of that nature as well but His move on so another study conducted at Appalachian State. University found that walking simply walking caused short-term boost immune parameters most notably for neutral fill and natural killer cell. Blood counts in the episode. We did talking about the immune system talking about the virus. In how our bodies how? The virus works our bodies work in reaction to viruses. I talk a highlight. How natural killer cells work simply gore four short walk boost the immune parameters including natural killer cells? When you see the the the post out there from like you know these government bodies saying you can't quote Bouche amused. Do they read? Do they actually read clinical evidence because his right there are so many things you could do to support immune system? There are so many things you could do to absolutely crush your immune system in a bad way. So walking is one of those fundamental things were designed to walk. Get outside and walk. Nobody's putting a cuffs on you. A Cossack still ahead keeping you from outside. If you're worried about the social distancing thing obviously you can work around that but we need to be Avenida Walk We got a treadmill. You've got whatever. Just find a way to walk. Your body really does need at your immune system needs it. So so many great resources out there got folks like Sean t who does a lot of body weight exercise programs. But here's the bottom line right now. We need this more than ever but we have these limits in our minds. I'll tell you right now. This is the best form of exercise. Ready the absolute best form of exercise is the exercise. You're actually do. I know sounds crazy again. The best form of exercise is the exercise will actually do. What will you actually do? That's the best form of exercise. It doesn't matter how good hit training is if you don't do it is a matter. How good swimming is if you don't do it as a matter. Fill in the blank. The best form of exercise is exercise. Actually do that's the best thing for you but we put exercise into these boxes like that's not exercise but exercise is movement anything where you were moving. The human body can be considered exercise so dancing roller skating. I saw Mike EPPs Oh instagram. He's roller skating in his house. Hardwood floors. I'm not saying to do that. But if that floats your boat and you got you know you. You have skills with roller-skates I'd be concerned. I don't like having wheels on my feet. I'M GONNA be honest about it. All right I missed that boat but roller skating This can be playing games right. Physical Games You can go to to a basketball court to shoot around not obviously the indoor courts or close but maybe there's outdoor playground around your neighborhood. Go Out and just work on your dribbles. How's that left hand if you're left handed how's that right? You go just work on Net. Physical Games like twister right so many different things. We could do But put it in his umbrella like this is exercise going to the gym. And it's just not true are so this is another big piece of this equation with a addressing the anxiety that we spent saying we have to move our bodies we have to exercise. But there's one other piece. I want to mention really quickly. We're talking about anxiety and we're talking about stress. Stress eating is a real phenomenon. We're cooped up caged up in the house with all the snacks. If is in the house is going to be in your belly. You know what I mean. So and again like we can still allow ourselves to have some treats. There's some good stuff we want to the base of our diet obviously to be real food a health affirming foods but we gotta have our snacks as well and so I just ordered literally. Hopefully it's coming in today but I ordered a new shipment of some of my favorite snacks and one of the things. I'm really in love with right now. I don't really talk about that often. But we'll talk about it now. We gotta just ordered a lot. More is the fat butters. I fat butters. Now you like you probably like what is a fat butter. What is that? These are kind of traditional code nut butters but then we add in some incredible superfoods along with it. And so one of the ones that I got is a snicker doodle all right in. By the way these are organic nut butters. So this is snicker. Doodle is cashew macadamia nut coconut butter. Hemp Seeds Organic Lou coomer so listen delicious sweetener. That goes in there. Got Some cinnamon in there. Salt you gotTa have the salt in there. If you don't have to solve the nut butter what are you doing brings all the flavors and Steve is in there as well. These are the nut butters which are taken to a different level. We're talking about Addison magazine. That in there this is the fat butters from on it. So they got the SNICKER doodle. They've got the traditional creamy. Peanut butter is well. Let me tell you about the peanut butter. What's in the peanut butter? The peanut butter has peanuts. Obviously what's peanut butter without peanuts? Macadamia that Chia seeds in their organic coconut oil? Himalayan Sea salt delicious got almond butter as well. You've got the chocolate hazelnut. Fat butters are special point. Great for like having with you know depending on your maybe you're into the crew today. You know maybe little Sliced veggies on there. Maybe do the the celery boy or the carrot stick not a big fan of those like apple slices I like that with my nut butters or maybe you're just using it for your smoothies and things like that. It's just delicious. It's delicious so many things you can do with it. Have you been known to like use almond butter to like make some great dressings salad dressings with a note sounds crazy? But it's Hella good the SNICKER doodle you've got to be careful just to not just eat it straight and just kill it but actually the crazy thing is these are so satiated is very challenging to eat a lot of it right. It tastes amazing. So you'll definitely want to dig in but it's like is really tasted really special so I get that from on it as well as my mcat. Oil that I use every single day in in a coffee or tea I love the mcat oil so much. I'll use smoothies as well. And we've got evidence now so mcat's or one of the things that we can utilize because they're able to cross the blood brain barrier in actually feed the neurons in your brain which a lot of things are not able to cross the blood brain barrier and actually get into the brain itself in so that's one of the benefits of the mcat oil also we've found benefits to the microbiome. We found benefits towards since it's a such a high converting energy it doesn't have to go through the process of like getting broken down into these amino acids or whatever the case might be it goes directly to your cells in. It's a great form of energy to provide to ourselves. Triggers the bodies produce key tones? Which is an alternative fuel. Even if you're not fasting or an Akito Diet things like that and CTO is fantastic. Threes loving on it. And I keep it stocked I keep is stocked is the fact that it's emulsified. Mc Tea oil so that means it's Kinda like a coffee creamer and has delicious flavors. My favorite is the Almond Latine. My wife loves the Vanilla Strawberry. They have some savory ones for salads things like that so anyways and go on and on love the snacks and products over it on it is on it dot com for session model it's in. It dot com four sash motto. Get you some all right. So let's move on and talk about another huge overlooked modulator of stress and anxiety. And it's also one of the most important drivers of your immune system and this is your sleep. Guaranteed anxiety levels. Stress levels are going to be elevated exponentially if our sleep quality. Is deranged now right now. During this time period in human history. You're either most likely in one of two camps during this lockdown. You either sleep in a lot more or you're sleeping a lot less right which camper you in this safe space. You could share with me. A lot of people asleep in a lot more a lot of people sleeping a lot less like the normal routine is gone. I this is I get it like right. Now it's kind of like we're all living in a virtual groundhog's Day I'll fill is super bill. Murray ish myself right now all right. I'm just being. Honest is kind of like a perpetual Tuesday. You know in Tuesday's and most disrespected day of the week. Let's just be honest about that as well. Mondays beginning of the week we got TGI. I am right Monday Wednesdays Hump Day it just sounds good anything with humping it Thursday. It's almost Friday. That's Thursdays claim to fame. And Martin you come on Thursdays. Friday is freaking Friday. The song's about Friday so many just got paid Friday night Saturday full on weekend. Immersion immersion. Weekend Glory Sunday got. It's the day of rest or there's another day kind of quote. Free Day get prepared day activity day spiritual practice day would be Sunday. Got Cut the juice Tuesday wet. What are you doing Tuesday? What are you doing? What are your goals Tuesday like? Where do you want your life to go but thanks to drake? You've got a song at the club going up on Tuesday Tuesday shower associates. Then Tuesday's been kind of acted different but anyways it just seems like a perpetual Tuesday and so with that said our sleep patterns can get skewed all right to say the least now. Here's why we want addresses research published by the Mayo Clinic. Shows that people who don't get quality sleep or enough sleep are far more likely to get sick after being exposed to a virus. This isn't just hearsay. This isn't just guessing. It isn't just a sounds nice. These are fundamental basic things basic principles of reality of the human body. If we're not addressing this why are we talking about all this other stuff basic things right so with that said on the Stress Front? Let's talk a little bit about that. Poor sleep quality sleep deprivation create dramatic detrimental changes in our brain automatically all right. Uc Berkeley did some brain imaging and they found that just a short amount of sleep debt to short amount of sleep debt. Even one day of short sleep leads to heightened activity in the emitted la. What I talked about earlier. This is kind of the more primitive Part of the brain. That's really focused. On survival of self primarily right. The Migdal is highly emotional. Highly sensitive in Driving the responses of the brain also of course of your actions in how you respond to the world so this is super important. Understand this and they also found that the executive part of your brain right the more evolved prefrontal cortex part of the brain responsible for decision making for social control for distinguishing between writing role round for rational thinking for perspective. Taking putting yourself in someone else's shoes all the stuff we can use more than ever right. Now that part of the brain they found after short-sleeved at one. Day sleep deprivation that part of the brain starts to go cold. The brain activity gets dramatically reduced. Wonder why we're acting this way with each other. Not Thinking rationally about what we're dealing with here. We're going to this. Far End of the spectrum of fear doubt worry and not enough and every man for himself now. That's not everybody in so many people because they're not rising to the level of their expectations are falling to the level of training. They'VE TRAINED TO BE COMPASSIONATE in times of crisis right so we have that camp as well but that doesn't mean that they're being there bestself in their rational perspective taking self as well. They're there to serve that to put themselves on the line but they might not have to put themselves on the line if they're able to see the bigger picture it's just harder so that's what we see here. We all see elevated stress hormone sleep deprived as well and just all manner of not goodness. So if we're trying to get better commodities better I'm just GONNA leave this as two simple things number one. We WanNA keep a semi consistently Bruti. All right I've noted. I know that I've been sleeping more. My son Brayden sleep in more sleep and more like is just like his little body wanted more sleep but he had the routine. We had this. We had to get to school. We gotta get up get to school. Now it's a little more relaxed and we create our own schedule. So yeah we we can. Maybe you don't want to go to bed and nine o'clock like you're going to bed at nine o'clock you want to go to bed at eleven cool. Let's get up and go to bed. Let's have a reasonable consistency to it. Because your brain and your physiology are always looking for patterns. One of the most important things was regulating your sleep quality not just the time so create a semi consistently routine. That is your mission. That's your homework for today. All right and on top of that another thing is practice the principles of great sleep hygiene that are inslee smarter. If you ever read sleep smarter where where are you from? What all you're from alien to be can't see me on youtube by hit the Nanu is this. That's not the new. What is that long live long and prosper shot at the spot? All right smarter. Make sure that you release martyr. Check it out on audio book So much grace of their that. When spire you to get great sleet and just make every other aspect of your life. Better our Social WanNa talk about that a little bit sleep is a huge component here in addressing Zion and our stress and from there. You know again of getting a lot of feedback and questions concerns and people's experiences of loneliness you know one person who's in my this inner circle this incredible private group that we have in. Are you in model nation by the way you need to get in there because I actually just did a live and talked about a lot of this stuff yesterday? And the answer some questions. So I'll jump in there occasionally but just the incredible community of folks who model show and just have incredible breadth of knowledge and insight and sharing with each other's just really special but go to the model health show dot com for slash model nation. You get access to our private. Facebook group is really really special group of people there and The only prerequisite is that you are a listener of the model health show. But we're going to check. We're GONNA ask you questions to make sure I so pop over there. But somebody should even just experienced a break-up just prior to this quarantine happening and they're just having a tough time you know. So what do we do to deal with loneliness? And how do we Modulate because here's another thing. Is that just because you're with people does not mean that you're not lonely? This is really important to talk about it. Understand this well. It's really about connection. It's about connection to other people. Your connection might have been the people at work it might have been your workout. Group might have been people you go biking with a might have been you know special groups it might have been you know Your your parents that you can't even go hang out with. So what I really want to bring to the forefront is that it doesn't mean that you're not lonely just because you're with people alright so we need to address. Connectivity connective tissue and used as an opportunity to deepen our relationships that we do have access to whether people were there and their physical presence or not now for inter versus. You waited your whole life for this to happen for Society. Shutdowns as okay. Just stay inside inch versu- Kinda lied like Bain. If you've seen the dark knight rises you know they banned Batman Tries. Use the dark. You know. He's the Dark Knight tries to use the dark against Bain. Bain is like how was born in the dark mish. You only borrow it. You know like introverts like I wish born to stay home you only borrow it. You know so. I don't know why but introverts I don't need people. This is great but even for the most introverted among us. We still do crave a need. Human connection is just different levels of it right for with introverts and extroverts. Creating huge broad statement is really about how you refuel. Introverts can hang out with people with all that stuff even enjoyed. But there's like that. Social tank is drained and they refuel by themselves whereas extroverts charged up their emotional tank is kinda drained being by themselves in there. It's filled when being with other people and we're all like tapestry or combination of these two different broad terms but we all need human connection and just to highlight some of the ways that we can address the loneliness epidemic that we're experiencing right now is well. Is here a couple of of some simple strategies days a week implement so number? One is take time if you do. Have Your family near you take time to connect with people that are actually in the House with you. I would've concept. Don't run from each other. You can't I mean again. You can spend time alone but uses an opportunity to grow your connection relationships. Talk out problems into play into have fun to ask questions and to inquire into share our this probably some stories about your party significant other your kids. Your parents you've never heard before this is the time. Ask those questions because I promise you. There's going to be a day that you wished that you ask those questions. For whatever reason during this time I had a dream about my grandmother and my grandfather inau dreams can be like for whatever reason like constantly and like I know the day have passed away but it was so they were they were here they were here and I hugged them and I asked him questions. Let them know like you were the best grandparents have ever walked the earth and then I went outside their house and because it's a dream is like a Walmart parking lot super weird super weird a nose with weird but asked the questions. Spend time pay attention. These are the moments that you're gonNA look back on and really wish that you had so that's number one if you have people that are near you in the house. Connect find a way to connect. If you are not able to do that. Our Technology has allowed us. It creates a lot of problems of course because rapid spreading fear and poor information poorly executed information but it also presents an opportunity to connect like to see. Somebody's face it to love as a whole different dimension to your wellbeing so facetime skype zoom whatever. The case might be faced face-to-face or face too many or even a phone call. I know people still do that. I know it's kind of a dying thing but just jumping on a phone call. This might be for some folks the prime time if you don't have that physical contact to get a pet now. I know that this comes with some different caveats here. Like first of all. Are you a cat person? You dog person a dog. Probably I mean this. This is not my opinion but the dog will probably be a lot happier by hanging out with you. All right cat skin be they can be difficult. They can be a little different. And matter of fact I mean there are no holds barred to the pet pets fear. If you've seen the tiger king on Netflix are you got to? Jeez you can get yourself tiger. I do not recommend that. Do not put words in my mouth. Say Sean say get tiger Exotic animals no. I'm just saying what a surprise. It's only two thousand dollars to brecon tiger absolutely crazy. So this is that physical contact. We've got clear data showing that having pets actually influences your lifespan. Crazy enough crazies. A sounds so maybe this is the time it get yourself pet you know go to the shelter whatever. The word is no corona virus coming from pets to stone that out there. That's a concern of yours So this might be something to consider. Now I'm not. This is not coming from a person who has a pet all right. I am not assume scarred saying therapy body but maybe but I grew up in a household there is always a pet pets tended to not last long in the Stevenson household for a variety of reasons. My very first memories whereas at my grandma's house just earlier that I was at in my dream with my dog lucky. Who is really my grandparents but it was my dog lucky and from there my grandmother had a dog named Kitten. She had a cat named Egan Academy Gye and a dog named country in the list goes on and on same thing with you know what? I'm living with my with my parents. I'll use a plethora of different animals had a cat named smokey. I had a dog named beamer. Just the list goes on and on. We had a dog named Roscoe but hells run away pass away but the final Straw for me from the hurt. I grew up in the hood. We don't get little tiny little doggies. We want the big. We WanNA pit bull. Rottweiler house was my dream was like when I get out of my parents. I'm getting myself with a rottweiler. Pit Bull. I came home one day high school so I think I was a sophomore. Yes sophomore maybe freshman. I came home from school. There was a rottweiler puppy. Use a couple of months. Oh Still Kinda getting. Kinda big rottweiler puppy I was. I was so overjoyed so happy. I cannot believe like milder you again. Thank you and love you. It's my puppy now for the next week. Maybe we can have. I couldn't wait to get home to see my dog inappropriately with the mindset that I had at the time the environment. I grew up in guessing. My Dog's name was. You can't guess I'll tell you my. My Dog's name was felony. I named my dog felony. Why Sean I was acting like on Tuesday. What is in front of me? What VALUE DO I have? What am I putting out there anyway? So can wait to get home to felony. We can week by week in half and by how in love come home you know about before to eases over felony. I'm looking over late with mom. Where's the dog? We're still anywheres. My my uncle who partake in narcotics name. We'd crack we have this terminology. Might say someone is a crackhead but He's stolen the dog and the dog had a chip in the owners. Found the dog and this kind of thing and so I was devastated. All right And ever since I was just like I'm done I'm not gonNA attach myself to a pet. Fortunately I didn't do that with people in America now but you know I'm not coming from the perspective of somebody who is like a pet owner but just from the perspective of this could be really helpful to help to have that connection to have To have a sense of purpose care for as many people know like your pet becomes part of the family. Many people there pet has their last name. All right this is a twinkles McGee. Ride the McGee family. This is you know Dash the dog next door Dash Johnson last name family name. It's might be a great opportunity to get a pet. Consider it right tiger king. By the way I've been having a couple of tiger king references here is number one show in the country as of now many many weeks on Netflix. Joe Exotic. This is a real life story. It sounds like a movie. There's explosions there's murder. There's polygamy there's money and you throw tigers in on top of Oh my God. It's the craziest thing you know and again like I don't usually partake but if you haven't seen it don't see it. I don't watch it. Your eyes don't deserve it all right. It's just super crazy. All right so with that human connection find someone also to walk with. We've already talked about this. But a new study published in the Mental Health and Physical Activity Journal found that walking is proving to be an effective treatment for alleviating mild depression. Depression is another thing. That's going to take hold more and more. We're dealing with this economy. Downturn find someone to walk with you okay if you again you don't understand the landscape of things and you gotta get messed up and you gotta do walk the distance so be it at least go out and get somebody walk. Walk with walk with and talk with our another thing that we can do to help to alleviate some of that loneliness again if there are people in your space. But you're still feeling a lack of connection in loneliness. A good hug can do wonders are good. Hug Can do wonders. Going hug on your. You know your brother your sister your your mother father your significant other your kids. Just love on them Use this as a as an opportunity to get closer connect. Let them know that you love them. A hug can do actual wonders. Now listen to this. A study published in clinical psychology psychotherapy affirm that human touch can directly reduce the stress response in the body and down regulate the production of stress hormones. Other studies affirmed that human touch triggers our bodies produce anti anxiety and antidepressant compounds like serotonin and within our own bodies. Dr Any banks who is an expert on human touch in the immune system development says that quote once we became mammals. We kept the babies inside of us and so we had fewer of them. Their chances of survival were dependent on US. Being in social context apparent taking care of their offspring biologically our whole nervous system and immune system functioning became dependent on being in a relationship in a society and having community around you. This is so important right now where we're being told now. There are justifiable reasons in being intelligent about it not to touch each other to stay away from people and this can be a slippery slope. My job is to just bring a balanced perspective to it. We don't want to be if somebody's sick or you're sick. Don't write but in reality. We need human connection. This is what makes us human without it. We become something else and I'm pointing to this fact because again in the media we hear stories like this Dr Anthony Fauci. He's the big voice right now. Talking about the corona virus in the impact on society. He's out there making the rounds on the different media. And he's the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and a key member of the White House Corona Virus Task Force Task Force. And he has suggested that. Americans should never shake hands again heffer. He said listen. Listen when the quarantine is over. What are the things when the reporters asking this? What are the things that we can do? An approach. As normal he said quote one of them is absolute compulsive hand washing the other. One is you don't ever shake anybody's hands. That's clear now. I read the report I and I was like. He could have said that so I went and dug up the audio this into a for yourself. What are the things that you could still do and still approach normal? One of them is absolute compulsive hand washing the other one. Is You don't ever shake anybody's hands. That's clear I don't think we'd ever should have shake hands ever again to be honest with you. And we have an authority figure somebody who's in a position of power which goes pass our filters of reasoning of simple logic because it's coming from an authority figure and this an emotionally charged situation and social contagion. Social pressure is right through all those filters and people start to believe they cannot shake another person's hand hug a person they don't know week become more distant and fearful of each other like never before in human history. We didn't evolve like this. We need each other and plus is it just me or does his voice on a little bit like Marge. Simpson's sisters Patty and Selma just a little bit. You know no disrespect in meanness in the most respectful way possible but just now. I'm sure he's a highly intelligent human being with the best of intentions. Obviously but for me my brain is wired up in such a way that I'm always asking questions when I get any type of advice coming from any type of of medium I've trained myself to ask questions like if this then what if we do this then what happens if we do this then. What happens what happens with this thing on this spectrum. What about that thing? I'm constantly asking questions in. My brain is just wired that way. Maybe that's why the model show is what it is is just the way that. I think but I don't think that this is innate to me. I think this was a training through my life experiences. That has caused me to ask questions in this fashion and so for me. I'm asking questions. Like what are the potential downsides of the advice to not touch other people? What are the potential downsides? Can you consider that before you have the audacity to tell people not to touch people? What are the potential downsides? Let's talk about that. Will this potentially cause psychological distress in phobias? We know well now about the no CBO effect in medicine. He literally said compulsive hand washing. You can't throw words like that around. That's dangerous. We HAVE TO BE MORE BALANCED PERSPECTIVE. Simple logic rationality but it's difficult. When we're in a heightened state of emotion and fear and in that same interview he also said that he doesn't sleep nowadays saw out there as if that matters all right now just to make my point here very smart people very smart people like my man foul. She can make costly mistakes in judgment and especially in the field of health and medicine and this is actually quite common. This is highlighted. I want you to know this. You have to know this piece of data a study from Johns Hopkins Analyzing Medical death-ray ray data over an eight year period found that more than two hundred fifty thousand deaths per year are due to medical error in the United States. This makes this. The third leading cause of death after cancer and heart disease is death by physician error. So many people don't know this and the way that the CDC report says that's just Kinda part of the problem is that there's so many different factors that goes into medical error. So this includes things like misdiagnosis errors in medication or surgery negligence. What's known as COGNITIVE PITFALLS COGNITIVE PITFALLS? This is a situation in which biases happen. That cloud our logic for example. A practitioner may overvalue their own personal data and not take new data into account which could result in unnecessary treatments or mistakes and treatments. Besides the deaths which that is it should be jarring to. You'd even here this. There are millions of IRA genetic injuries every single year in the United States I tre genesis means physician created the first rule. The hippocratic oath do no harm. We have to know this stuff very smart people. This is what we look to highly intelligent people. We can make mistakes. We can be wrong. We can put the wrong information out the way that we put the information out can cause conflicts. Problems can a doctor Save Your Life? Yeah can that same doctor kill you absolutely? We have to stop looking at a physician or any other figure that you hold on a place of authority as the end. All be all authority on the subject. We have to use our rational thinking and ask questions. That's what I want. Implore you to do right now at this time in history more than any other time because if we take a very smart person and we teach them the wrong thing they become world class at during the wrong thing they can become world class at doing the wrong treatment can become world-class giving the wrong advice. If you take highly intelligent person and they're giving the wrong piece of data so I just want to put that out there and help us to kind of come back to our our our our our our senses perspective when we're talking about human contact which we need and giving advice on social distancing even this is it has so many holes in it like six foot seven foot ten foot bunch. What's the distance that's going to save us? How many people can be in a building? That's going to save ten ten people who made these just making it up just making the reality is if somebody is infected with the virus be it corona. Be It a flu virus beer. Whatever it is. They're in that environment. It's in the environment. It doesn't matter it's ten people doesn't matter you're GONNA get expose. What do we need to do? What do we need to lean on? That's what I talked about in that episode on how immune system actually works and how viruses works listed episode. Please but at the end of the day. It's having a true understanding of what we go back to. Chris Hadfield saying that the True Antidote. To fear is competence. And we're talking about the close proximity social distancing wearing masks as the big thing right now is wearing the mask right. That's the thing I don't see my man voucher when he's in the podium. He's got his minions in every the minions they're they're all close but that's I guess do as I say not as I do. This is not normal. What is normal? This is not a normal thing. We're dealing with of course but we have dealt with viruses infections. Bacteria Infections Fungal infections. The list goes on and on since the beginning of life here on this planet evolved to create the people that we are all right but of course we want to be smart. Yes absolutely take precautions but I WANNA go in a little bit deeper here because I feel be a disservice to share this with you and talk about a little bit more with our social interaction so already referenced. Medical Data and research showing how human contact helped to evolve our nervous system in our immune system. But when I'm talking about hugging on in love and the people in your life especially right now. Scientists at the University of North Carolina found that hugs are remarkable in boosting immune system function. They found that a good hug. Quote stimulates the thymus gland which regulates imbalances the body's production of white blood cells. Your Immune Cells. Which keeps you help the end disease-free you never heard hugs medicine. Never heard hugs can help my immune system to work and do his job by. Just WanNa put that out there. Also research at the University of California's School of Public Health found that simply getting I contact in a pat on the back from a physician can boost the survival rates of patients with complex. Diseases is having had contact having that acknowledgement that social interaction that touch is actually a healing factor in how our physiology is wired up now clearly. Social contact can obviously be a root of spreading disease. But there's another side of the story that needs to be identified The research also indicates the microbiome is the big conversation right now kind of the final frontier and health and medicine and we have this incredible cascade of bacteria viruses and fungi that make up who we are as humans. We have trillions of viruses bacteria cells. Fungi we have the Michael Baion for fungi that inhabit that are in an on our bodies. And what we see now in the research is that yes some microbes can be harmful but many perhaps a lot of them actually very helpful and when we are in contact with other people we are exchanging these microbes. This is happening all the time. And what the researchers were indicating that hugs hence Handshakes and even you know pats on the back. Things like that hip checks. We are translating that over and switching and sharing microbe data is basically like your database being sort of like I tunes music database. And you're getting more and more of a collection of of music to play. And here's what's so crazy is that there's this new phenomenon it's called the Pan microbiome that is like a Meta community of microbes species that span a group of people and if you compare If you actually look at the data you see the higher diversity in these microbes by social interaction that we see this is correlated with less chronic illnesses lower levels of obesity higher levels of resistance to infection and longer lifespans. We need contact. We need to associate with each other and community to build up our immunity right. Once we start to distance ourselves we become something else so but also there is the other end of the spectrum like we need interaction for microbes. We have the other end of the spectrum. Some microbes can hurt you right so we have to find a middle ground. We can start to see these things clearly and not jump to one thing where we become inhumane and stop associating with each other and keeping our distance from everybody around us in a fear of other humans. It's not natural is not normal so with that said there's one more aspect of how we are being told to interact with each other that. I just WanNa look at some of the facts on and make sure that you have the complete story because we're talking about addressing Zaidi and our stress. This is a potential stressor in inducer of anxiety that we're not really paying attention to because we're in so much fear of this other aspect of the anxiety. And what am I talking about? I'm talking about the advice that we're being inundated with that if we're going to interact with people or that if we're going to go out in public and this could be a potential long-term behaviors that we need to protect our face. We need to wear a mask all right now in their context this is appropriate but widespread dissemination of information like that. There's another side of the story I've got to share with you because here's the fact the CDC acknowledged that everyone wearing face masks is actually unlikely to be very effective. They've already stated this. So why are we doing it or psychotherapists anymore? In explains that wearing the mask does more for mental health than it does for our physical wellbeing by soothing anxiety and giving us the illusion of being in control. Now that's what it really boils down to. We're talking about anxiety we're talking about our perception of reality and what we WANNA do to create more certainty because Zayed's tied to uncertainty is to do the things that we can do. We have power over thinking of power over our actions but it's how we're responding to the things happening around us but it's all in abortion because in truth we're not in control it all. We're spinning around in outer space on a frigging Blue Ball in the middle of this frigging galaxy that came from another galaxy that came from Supernova. We've got this huge gigantic star that we're swirling around as it takes eight minutes from the light to leave that star to get to your body. It's like don't get me started. Just look from the Meta perspective. We're not in control. This is about surrender to that idea of illusion but also fully embodying the responsibility that you have right now because you are that you are a part of that star you are a part of this solar system you are part of this planet are part of life right now if the greatest gift being born right now as a human being in this time as crazy as it might be over time you have such an opportunity to extend on the potential of this universe and it starts with you doing the things that you can do the things that you do have control over is your thoughts and your Your perspective that's about it. Of course you're calling the actions and so with that said specifically experts have said that there is little evidence to suggest covering one's face with a scarf Bandanna or other material were offer protection from the Corona Virus. A recent report noted that while cloth coverings might prevent some secretions from being passed on to other people. They might also make people more likely to touch their faces because they're adjusting the Ben and with their nasty they could also engender. This is according to this report. A quote false sense of security. What most people don't seem to understand about the mask thing that it's not to protect you from the world and people outside of you. It's to protect the people outside of you from you. That's what mass are really. Four is to keep the sickness in not to prevent from getting in to you. Even the very best mass do not eliminate all of the pathogens that are able to make their way through. You still have to breathe. You still have to breathe and these like rag tag like ones that we're doing putting the BANDANNA on its again. This was about preventing if you're coughing or sneezing is his not preventing other things from getting in to your stratosphere inside of your your body so you during the Bandido thing Charleston narcos. My wife made me watch it okay. She was like we're GonNa you know scoring GonNa Watch saying no Pablo Escobar. She got me to Watson Publicity. We're bandidos wife. She knows how where you can learn lessons from days. Pablo had team Pablo's dedicated to his wife that he had a mistress but he's still don't disrespect that so I get that is lessons. It'd be found everywhere but during that whole bandidos thing I don't know because this is the biggest thing I wanNA share with you guys. A new study published in the Journal of Neuroscience found that the brain immediately determines how trustworthy a faces. We instantly do this when we're in contact with other people which supports the fact that we make very fast judgements about people now. The researchers noted that our brains are specialized for recognizing faces. We identify each other by our faces. Not Our elbows or hands or our is our entire face and expressions that we give and a person's face provides a wealth of information according to the study within seconds of seeing a person's face we immediately know so much about him or her including age gender their level of ability. Whether or not they they're they're dealing with something ethnicity etc and fairly accurate assessments in economic status emotional state and overall health when we can see. Somebody's face now. We can't see people's faces. Guess what that does to our brain that is programmed hardwired to billions of years of evolution to see faces to assess threats now. We can't see faces does he. Anxiety go up or down. I'm asking you goes up absolutely looking deeper into this. Why are mask so menacing wall really has to do with the fear of the unknown? This is a huge player. In how evolved the fear of the unknown as a major player in psychology? All the best scary situations people got mask on right. Michael Myers Jason Parties Bozo the clown. Maybe that's just me sorry Bozo. Freak me out totally free out anyways but that is a thing. We can't see somebody's face all right now. Also when you've taken into context these are like medical. What about as scary surgery? You're going into surgery. This is a life threatening situation right. There's GonNa be fear attached to all kinds of different mass that we wear but now we see it everywhere in all the primal programming and not being able to actually assess a threat or to see a person's face it can really what the data shows that this is going to stimulate hyper stimulate our sympathetic fight or flight nervous system. All the time social contagion. Should we be doing this to protect ourselves right now in some aspects it's appropriate but the widespread recommendation for everybody to wear masks like we're in the frigging purge. We have to think about the bigger psychological and health aspects that. That's going to carry right if this then. What if we're protecting from this then? What happens with this thing this is all I wanted to do is just ask questions and have a broader perspective to have sound mind. We need sound mind. We need competency right now. More than ever right. Is it appropriate? We have to understand what the mask is doing by the way if you got a beard. You're mass doesn't work already. You can't even have appeared stuff's getting but it's more so again to keep stuff from you or from other people I it's not about keeping stuff out and you but this is what most people think is at the mass is protecting them and simply doesn't work like that. As a matter of fact amass can just be a resort for pathogens. To sit on in in our is definitely be nasty inside of there. Because you're you know if you're sick especially is going to be nasty in there. But even if you're just not sake and you're gonNA gross but pathogens who's come and sit like a resort on top of that mask and guess what's by the massive isn't covered by the by the mask. Your Eyes Your eyes. You can be infected by pathogens through those beautiful is yours all right well. We don't really think about that. Pathogens can just sit on top of his mask and you know jump off the springboard the CDC says that surgical mask won't stop the wearer from inhaling small airborne particles which can cause infection the CDC recommends surgical mask only for people who already show symptoms of Corona Virus. And must go outside since wearing a mask and help prevent spreading the virus by protecting others from you when you call for sneeze now going back to that point on the is being you know jumping on the springboard diving in plus viruses bacteria. Fungi still have access to the human is one study from China suggests that up to one third of the people hospitalized with corona virus experience. High problems such as viral pink. So what are we going to do? We're going to wear masks and goggles. We're GONNA DO Horace Grant James Worthy. We're going to Scuba Scuba Ski Stephen on Streets we have to like we. WanNa be smart. But don't take this to a level of ridiculousness. That's all I'm saying you know because we're better than this. We're better than our behavior. But WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND. There's a social contagion and the herd mentality if you're the only one who doesn't have a mask on and you're out at Walmart or whatever or was open right now you're gonNA feel like. Oh my goodness I should be wearing a mask. You know but again. This might be appropriate in some acute instances but living our lives. This way can be very dangerous and one other tiny aspect that I want us to acknowledge because this episode is about addressing the anxiety stress. And what are some components that we can do to improve our health into operate in a in a more intelligent fashion in this situation that we're all experiencing we're talking about anxiety you have to know this? Research conducted by the CDC in published in the annals of work exposure and health stated that by wearing a mask the highly thermo sensitive nature of the human face and breathing pathways can be inhibited leading to increase anxiety elevated stress hormones falsification alarm in the central nervous system and panic attacks. If this then what if we do this then what if we're already prompting and we're getting this false suffocation response it's inhibiting are breathing because we think that this is going to protect us. We need to have a balanced perspective in this. That's all I want us to do. Not saying that a mass can be helpful. Especially if you're sick because it's really about keeping your sickness away from other people not keeping other people's sickness away from you because it does not work that well the CDC has acknowledged. I'll say it again. That everyone wearing face masks this directly from the CDC is unlikely to be very effective. They're looking. They're giving US little candies. They're giving US little treats wear a mask. Stay away from people what actually protects us. It's having a healthy. Immune system is taking care of our bodies. It's optimizing our sleep. Our relationships having a healthy microbiome. These are all things that are proven by facts. These are not just try this thing. Six foot seven foot eight foot bunch. Stay away from people were guessing. Let's get our society healthy. Let's get our society healthy. Let's take care of each other enclosing. I just want to share that. What my heart is wanting to say that we cannot allow ourselves to be afraid of each other. We're at a point in human history right now where this can go left really quickly. This situation can be taken to a place that takes us away from. We can devolve to something else. We were no longer be human. Once we become afraid of each other in our interaction we need each other. We need each other more than ever so get well-balanced information share this information with the people you care about so that they can be more informed again not saying that we don't take proper precautions but the precautions of the advice to address those precautions that were often given our little treats because it's not proven by science all right. Well we have proven by science things. We talk about here on the Montreal. Show about that life. So please make sure to check out the past episode addressing the pandemic and the human microbiome and human viral is well in all the wonderful information on that episode every in the show notes and I want to share this statement with you and this came from a movie that I watched with my family. My oldest son and my wife has been just Aguilar just to watch this film that she watched Called Brian Banks. And it's based on a true story and essentially. This young man is falsely accused of a crime and sent to prison and he was like a blue chip to superstar had all the colleges wanted him and eliminated his dream like that. Not only that. Put Him behind bars and eventually with grown men in a child. He's like fifteen sixteen years old and you get to see the story unfold. And what changed his life and you have to watch this movie. You have to watch movie to see how the story unfolds because it is a freaking miracle to see where he ends up. It is usually can't believe it but if he didn't have a mentor if he didn't have a voice of reason someone to instill something in his spirit. He coulda went to a dark place we never would have heard his name again and this character ended his mentor. Played by Morgan Freeman. Of course of course is going to be mortgage agreement. But he said this statement to him that I wanNA share with you today. We're all dealing with a very challenging situation right now. But he shared with him. That all you can control in life is how you respond to life. This is the only thing that is truly within your power. Everything else is just an illusion. We're spinning around outer space on his big Blue Ball share with billions of other people and there are billions of galaxies beside czars billions. All right the only thing right now. All that you control in life is how you respond to life and I hope that today provided you with some new insights. Some things to implement. I put in practice some of the practical things that we talked about to improve your feelings of stress and anxiety and overall well being to boost your immune system support your overall health and also for the health of people you care about. Please share this out with the people that you love social media. Of course you can tag me appreciate it. So much. Guzm epic epic. Show's coming your way. So make sure you stay. Tuned take care have an amazing day and talk with you see for more after the show make sure to head over to the model held show dot com as we could find all the show notes. He could find transcriptions videos episode. And if you've got a comment you can leave me a comment there as well and please make sure to head over to itunes and leave. Us rating to. Everybody know that the show is awesome and I appreciate that so much and take care I promise a key giving you more powerful empowering break content to help you transform your life. Thanks for tuning in.

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Political animals (with Leah Garcs)

The Ezra Klein Show

1:30:25 hr | 1 year ago

Political animals (with Leah Garcs)

"Chickens are at this huge disadvantage as our fish right they don't usually vocalized pain and they don't share facial expressions like we do mammals stew and so we have this affinity towards animals that are closer to us. We want to protect them. In the closer they are to us more. We say oh they must feel pain. They're worthy of protection. Low Konczal inbox media podcast network. My guess today is Lee Garces <hes> who is he president mercy for animals animals and the author of the new turning adversaries into allies change the chicken industry. There are two levels to this conversation. <hes> one is about Garcia's work <hes> <hes> who she's been in Georgia working with chicken farmers to try to reform both the way the farmers the chickens are treated and the the sort of remarkable story of her book is when you're Vegan when you're an animal rights activist it could be total izing what you're looking at the quantity of death and suffering you can end up in a very US versus I them <hes> just need to make my moral stand place and it's a reasonable place to be. I don't WanNa insult that but that doesn't get you very far <hes> just standing up for for being on the right side of history so you're not judged harshly and fifty years that's great but what about the chickens now and cigar says has been working to build these coalitions that were pretty new when she started doing it and have had a huge effect on the actual lived lives of chicken and her book is about both the tactical and organizing an emotional emotional effort to do that right how do you how do you build coalitions. How do you see the humanity of people who it's very easy to see as your enemy and that's really the second level of this conversation one of the reasons I wanted her on the show in particular a lot of politics right now. It seems to me to be almost kind of anti-politics. You're not trying to figure out how to see the humanity and others and build coalitions with them and get things done. You're trying to show that they're not worth working with that. You don't need to listen to them that they should be written out of the conversation that history is going to sweep them by and I think a lot love that's online but it's not only online and recognizing that as a choice and recognizing what it means to choose one strategy there over another a strategy of trying to find were you can work with people over trying to explain why you won't work with them is a dimension of politics that I don't think we talk enough about <hes> and is often dismissed <hes> <hes> when people are just making their stance so I thought this was actually a really a really powerful conversation as always my email as workload box dot com for feedback suggestions whatever again Ezra Klein show at vox dot com. Here's the Garcia's League Garcia's welcome to the podcast thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. How did you get into working on animal issues. I think it like many kids. I always cared about animals. I grew up in Florida. I had ducks in my backyard that I had the privilege of watching hatch in my mother's flowerbeds and that was my first insight. These are animals that have lives they have dramas they have <hes> needs and wants and I kind of grew up not questioning that and then when I was about fifteen I saw a pita esque. I can't remember it but a pita esque documentary like meet meet your meat and I was horrified. I was a meat eater and it just blew up my world and from that point on I really wanted to help. Animals are really wanted to change the way we interacted with. <hes> haven't looked back. Since what was your first job in space my first job well. My very very first job was at let's save the Manatee Club in Florida and I was like the person who did <hes> the Christmas membership drive for adopting Amenity <hes> but that was a very short stint so my real first job was a compassionate world farming in the United Kingdom in London and that's where where I was a research officer. I was really providing the the statistics the information the facts about why the system needed to change what do people not. I don't know about world farming that they should well. It hasn't changed much but this was back in the year two thousand and right the turn of the century which is an exciting phrase and yeah exactly and I was living in England where there was a real <hes> awareness growing about the fact that farmed animals could feel pain they could suffer and even at that stage though it was questionable to scientists whether fish could feel pain right. This was still a question in our minds. <hes> and we are going through this change in this realization. Wow we really we really should consider the animals we eat. We should consider the lives they lead and their needs and wants and the the the basics were not own people still thought that farmed animals are raised in the equivalent of their grandma's backyard and it was it's not necessary to be shocking. It was not necessary to dramatize what was happening because the facts were so shocking in of themselves. The fact that animals are kept in cages is in crates so small they can't around can't flap their wings. They can't do anything that we would normally associate with a chicken or a pig and this was shocking enough one of the things that the struck me a couple of years ago. I was talking to somebody <hes> a striking somebody who works on cattle issues there explaining to me that what I had heard about veal when I was young when I was young there is this conversation conversation about veal and the day were treated in a way that was truly horrifying. You shouldn't eat veal. You can eat whatever you ought veal and then they were expanded that had just become the standard of how like basic all all the animals were treated now like the the techniques perfected early on that you're in a cage. You couldn't turn around. You're trying to make the meat soft etcetera that just becomes standard across a lot of other kinds of Vanua agriculture and that was really that was striking to me. Yeah you know I wonder about that sometimes so people we've kind of come out there. The worst practices assists that exists right there are the Cajun crates which are now in almost two thousand twenty twenty years after I started working on this issue are beginning to disappear so they've been beyond in something like fifteen states in the United States have been banned in Europe <hes> occasion cruiser going the way of the dinosaur hopefully and John yet the cruelties in the confinements in the problems are still front and center and we only adjusted a a little bit but we've not really still got it in our heads. These animals are not that different from us. They are degrees not kinds of the difference and that's important you talk about the scientific change where it began to be more broadly recognized in animals can feel pain and you talk in the book about a little bit later. There is more scientific recognition they can feel pleasure and I think a normal human being hearing this that would sound insane right a lot of us grow up with dogs and cats. What's <hes> we've seen goats jumping around on the Internet. It seems pretty clear that <hes> animals can feel pain and that they can feel pleasure that they have personalities. Is this really something where people needed science or is it something where eventually was science it could form the basis for movement yeah well. If you're trying to convince convince <hes> you know ten plus billion dollar industry to change its practices. They need proof and many times in society society. We need this kind of proof that this is right. We are not going to go out our emotions. Our intuitions usually turns out that doesn't tuitions are probably close to to the truth and they're just variations of that that science helps us hone in on and the issue of pleasure in animals. It's obvious if you have a dog or cat what they love to do what they enjoy when they're suffering when they're happy there is no physiological difference difference between a pig and dog and yet one of them ends up on our plate and the other one ends up in our in our homes yeah a very are- transformative experience for me and this will sound so banal is about eight years ago my wife and I we got two dogs. I'd had one dog growing up and my dog was dogfish and I love my dog pappy but I didn't really think too much about differences between dogs and then we got these two and actually sister so they're in the same letter and they're remarkably different there more different than I am for. Most of my friends like one of them is this shy scared awkward. Creature who does like wants to be in your mom. The other is as explorer and likes to be outside and runs around and they have such idiosyncratic personalities that really shattered for me a sense of sameness among animals and then when I looked into it more this was obvious and everybody knew it may be but me but but there is something undeniable about that that I think ended up being a being foundational for how my politics later evolved that if there's going to be this much personality between two animals that were a similar you know in in their upbringing in their genetics then the idea that animals were in undifferentiated and that their emotional Oceana experience of the world was a lot greater than my own didn't seem possible anymore. Yeah imagine when you think of chicken farming right so typically there are thirty thousand individual chickens so like your individual dogs that are shoved into warehouse that is darkened and boring and there's nothing to do living on their own feces and each of those individuals are having their own any living living on their own feces so they live on top of litter they defecate onto that letter and that letter is not changed during their entire life so oh that litter is being filled up with their feces and in fact from flock to flock that is often not cleared out for years so you have probably the of their of many many many years a flocks that have come before so that produces an ammonia <hes> that is a really the if you've walked into a chicken house. It's very significant. <hes> smell that hurts your eyes. You can taste it afterwards in your hair kind of like the old days of when you went into clubs in your hair smell like smoke. It's like it stays with you in you. In the animals are experiencing now that's their only existence. Their whole life is in these long warehouses and there by the end their life their wall to wall with their their flock mates but what you know is really difficult for most people to get their head around. Is that each of those animals in those warehouses. They're individuals having an individual experience and they will have like your dogs. This varied personality some will want to have lots of friends. Someone want to be alone. Some will be athletic and some will what's in the industry treats and we as consumers eating these animals treat these animals. They're potatoes like there a monolithic kind of one thing but they're not these are individuals with individual needs and wants and this system can't cater for that and it benefits from their death economically comically. There is a pretty deep human ability to empathize with dogs some cows. We've evolved with each other. We've domesticated. Chickens are harder yeah. Can I can see the emotions on the face of my dogs. I can't see them on the face of chicken and so it's much easier for me to wall off from the idea of chickens ends is having the experience even cows do with their big liquid is in there <hes> or pigs <hes> which some people keep as pets chuckle but about what what do we know and not know about the emotional and physical live chickens chickens are at this huge disadvantage as our fish right they don't usually vocalise pain and they don't share facial expressions like we do mammals do and so we have this affinity towards animals that are closer to us. We want to protect thumb in the closer. They are to us the more we we say oh. They must feel pain. They must they. They're worthy of protection and the further they are evolutionary from us. We we have an easier time morally excusing abuse of them and that's what's happened with chickens and fish but it is it's categorically not true and there are lots of tests have shown their ability to have empathy so chickens. which is you know anybody who knows me? I'm like chicken. Lady like love love chickens. I know a lot about them and they're fascinating animals. I think they're like super. I think they have superpowers actually if I have to if I if I had to say EH. They have superpowers so they can see colors. We can't see they can see close and far up at the same time so they can spot like a tiny little bug in the grass. I can't even find my keys most mornings you know and they can see <hes> they can also use the earth's magnetic fields to orient themselves like that's that's that's definitely like superhuman superpower stuff but with more in terms of their emotions if you think of children's literature it's always depicting the the mother and her chicks and there's so many stories and that's speaking to a truth we know and were just ignoring but mother hens evolutionary generally they have to have the ability of empathy right the half this means that they can perceive the suffering of another because they have to be able to perceive and protect their young and and not all animals do that but pretty much most animals are able to because evolutionary they needed to and that's not any different than us and chickens can also count you talk a little bit about the studies aroma can you can you talk about how they've measured that empathy towards the it's a great study by Joanne Edgar. I think it was a university of Bristol and it was a really important study to measure that chickens have the ability to have empathy and so what they did is they did little puffs of air on the chickens babies the checks and the chicks would you know show distress and and the mother would display distress as well seeing this now. That sounds like okay. That's just a reaction but what then happened is they would be able to anticipate the the mother. Hen would be able to anticipate that this was about to happen right so she could predict and anticipate that this chick was about to have distress and be worried about in have this concern now that shows a depth could tell that the puff of era's. GonNa come a noise or sump exactly so they would show the show the puffer that was about to happen and they would get stressed in anticipate. Oh my God my baby's about to have some bad thing happen now. That's that's empathy. That's what we that's what you feel for your friend. When you're like Oh my God my friends like about to be you know have their girlfriend break up with them and now I'm GonNa feel sorry for them. I'M GONNA took my son for shots other right exactly. That's a better analogy. It's exactly like you're GONNA go. Take your kid for shots and you're stressed out because you know they're gonNA suffer. It's the same thing and baby chicks can also count they have this ability of like they can understand that too is smaller than three and that six is greater than three right from when they're hatched. They have this mathematical ability right away so they will. They detest where they can see that they can choose. They will choose the greater thing right away now. We might be like we don't necessarily we look at that. We're going of course it's bigger but that's counting. That's understanding reading and that's not always something. Even human beings cannot do that. We're going to be able to do that right. It's a long time before human babies can do that and so I mean these are just I some recent tests that I'm so grateful. Some scientists have done imagine we were obsessed with chickens and we did tests on them all day long like like we do on human babies or something like we the depth of knowledge we would have about them and would be much greater and there's a a a primatology tamed <hes> France Divall and he's really great thinker and really has moved things forward in terms of how we have this tendency of of seeing ourselves as very separate from animals there's US and there's all of them but he's really breaking that down and even from moral code and politics takes and <hes> and then empathy. He's defining that these are again. Just degrees of differences not kinds. We've all of evolved loved to have things like moral codes and empathy and what would he he. He wrote a book a few years ago called. Are we smart enough to know how smart animals are and I thought that was so important of a question to ask maybe because we're so different than chickens. They can't even understand their intelligence their their emotions because we're nothing like them you know in many ways we are like them in many ways but we're also we don't have the ability to do magnetic fields what if the world was ruled by dolphins and chickens and their test test of our intelligence is do we have sonar and can we orient ourselves in a magnetic field. We would be considered the stupidest animals on the planet so it's really a lot about questioning the the tests we do on animals to define whether they're intelligent is all from our perspective and our view of what is intelligence and the the other thing here is the numbers around chickens are like they're. They're too big to really manage but something I will tell folks in the audience that I I did not expect when I began talking to people the animal rights and suffering movements is chickens are the dominant concern little bit fish but but chickens <hes> I I think from the outside people think about cows or maybe think about pigs but it's chickens because they tend to have both a particularly bad quality of life but the numbers are astonishing. Can you talk a bit about the scale of chicken farming yeah. I wrote this book because I wanted people to try to get to grips with that number. It's very hard for human being to understand Sam big numbers in this country alone we raise and slaughter nine billion farmed animals billion with a B. Just to be clear every year for for our consumption all animals no just check those tickets and so ninety percent of all farmed animals are just chicken so there's ten billion about farmed animals that are raised slaughtered every year nine billion of those are just chickens and end up on our plates so not laying hens for eggs. Not Pigs not so combined and all the other animals combined. Don't even come close to the number of meat chickens that we raised and globally it's very it's a very similar picture and you can say when you talk about the meat industry in terms of numbers you're talking about the chicken industry and the United States is the leading producer in the world so really close head the head with China but regardless. This is the concern we this is the thing we should be concerned about. In this country. We want to talk about reducing suffering in this country or or globally chicken. Farming is the leading cause of suffering on the planet and there's attention here because I I know a lot of people who begin to be turned on around these issues will say rather for climate reasons. I moving away from red meat towards things like poultry and fish or <hes>. We'll sort of intuit that Kausar bigger. They're more intelligent pigs. Are you know they say about as smart as a three year old <hes> as you move over to something like chickens you don't WanNa beating red meat like that and that from the animal rights perspective like this is a catastrophe <hes> yeah. It's it's a huge concern whether you're environmentalist or whatever that you're saying. I hear people say it all the time. I don't eat red meat. I don't eat chick. I don't eat pigs and cows. I do eat fish and chickens and for me. This lake makes me explode because like I said that's such it's a larger number of animals and what's more people will say <hes> it's because of the environmental impact and our environmental debate is really narrow run around greenhouse gas emissions right now but that is not the true impact of our food consumption that is one aspect and a really really really big aspect that I think is going to be on the political agenda very soon as arable land and water use and when you think about a chicken and you think about his impact on his or her impact on the environment you might be wanting to think just about the box they're kept in right but somewhere out there in the world is all the feed aid all the grain all the soy that is being raised somewhere to feed to that chicken and we use a huge amount of our arable land just feed animals in tortured factory farms scenarios what we should be doing if we're really serious about feeding ten billion people. We need to look take a cold hard. Look at how we're using this arable land and I think we're starting all over again. We'd say this is nuts. Why are we using this plot of land to feed in an animal here. Were losing seventy percent of the calories and the process and then we're eating that animal and that animal so is treated inhumanely. It's an it's an insane idea. We came came up with and what I think. We're very quickly going to realize as our land becomes unusable is that we have to be way more serious race about soil how it's used and that needs to go directly to humans rather than to factory farmed animals to our plate so one other piece of this context. I want to draw out that might understanding standing is that chickens both braised for slaughter and laying hens are treated compared to some of the other animals that we raise for food. I'm not saying anybody's treated treated great in this <hes> in this process but chickens are considered to be the ones that live the most miserable is they have been bred in the way that is most <hes> violent to their own bodies that they live with the least space is is accurate yeah so a chicken has I'll. I'll say the industry calls it a broiler chicken second so I don't WanNA use Lingo but I need to differentiate between laying hen and a meat chicken which are totally different species now which a lot of people don't know their subspecies take they don't interact they do different things industry and they have different lives in the industrial farming system. Look very different look very different. They live for different amounts of time. Josh assert their like. How do they look so if you have a white egg that has come from a white chicken and that white chicken has a comb is usually usually if there if it doesn't say cage free kept in a cage has a narrow slimmer body and their purpose is really to produce <hes> eggs now often because if they're kept in a cage cage it means they have a lot of feathers missing because their flock mates might be pecking out them they might be rubbing against the bars all the time <hes> they also because of this pecking that happens I mean if you were on the subway for your whole life. You'd probably end up throwing a few elbows right so this is the same concept birds get they get irritated with each other and they start pecking each other and then if they see a spot they start picking not a lot and he can result in cannibalism even in these in these cages so they've resorted as industry does instead of saying Oh. Why are they picking at each other. They probably need more space. They're like no we'll just trim off the beak so they take take a hot iron to the tip of the beak and take that be great off and right right at the tip so they can't hurt each other <hes> non anesthetized procedure correct yes us it's a horrible procedure that is standard and it speaks to the way the industry often solves problems where they they just they just do a band aid on top of abandoned on top of abandoned abandoned on top of abandoned instead of being getting to the root of the problem. The root of the problem is these are sentient beings. Don't WanNa live like this and we need to think about them that way. Not let's just keep pushing them. I'm to their to their metabolic and their physical maximum to get what we need out of them with broiler chickens so while the laying-hen often has the cage the physical cage broilers. Michigan's they have a genetic cage and their bodies are cage so what we've done over the last fifty years. We've selectively bred a bird to grow as biggest possible as fast as possible so we can get. It's cheap meat as possible and now the results for these animals is essentially a franken chicken. This is a franken chicken. They are like a grape on toothpicks and they can hardly the hold their own weight so at the at day forty twenty five percent of birds. This was a scientific study have great difficulty walking and three percent can't walk at all. Oh and this is because they have been. We're very focused on growing a bird that has large breasts because that's what we like to eat and who cares it's about the rest of the body and how it keeps it keeps up so the organs lungs heart have difficulty they have difficulty breathing have difficulty <hes> with their immune system. I M their guts and they also have difficulty with their muscular skeletal system meaning that collapsed under their own weight their legs are in constant pain and we know that because there was a study done in welfare scientists did a study where they offered these chickens two types of feed one had the essentially like aspirin in it and and the other one didn't and the birds categorically chose the one with aspirin in it because they were in pain and they knew after they realized okay this is going to help my pain gain an answer the the fundamental problem. It's terrible rate horrible and it's all it's all driven by demand thing about this. I just like as somebody who host conversations like this. I'm sitting here in this conversation and this is all horrible. I know some of it not all of it and like the thing I'm worried about it like as I watched watch. That clock moves like just losing people yeah right it. This is one of those issues. We're just talking about it straightforwardly like I don't even like being here right now on man this is not a fun issue to look at in the face and they just want to note that because if you're feeling that if you're listening to this and like there's a price you just wants wants to turn it off. I want. I promise I'm not going to do the whole conversation about how terrible chickens but there's a reason I'm laying out. I want laid out one because I think it's important but to because it's GonNa offer frame for <hes> more of the story that comes next but I just want to note that this is a hard. It is hard to face up to this. You mentioned <hes> in your in your buck. <hes> had Albert Schweitzer quote about the worst suffering suffering. You refuse to see and we're really there in this one. <hes> this is suffering that it is so bad that to talk about it is to make it hard to keep enough enough people in the room to do anything about it. It's a hell of an issue here really is and that's why I wrote the book the way I did and and I was worried that if I wrote a book that just spoke truth to what's happening. People wouldn't get past the first page we're talking about. Howard growing the broiler broiler chickens just blessing this. How long does it chicken live in the wild in the wilds. Oh I mean suming what is its lifespan. Assuming it's not eaten by whatever right <hes> eight ten years let's say and if you are really great trick and that's a really great life we and how long do the broiler an ogling chickens. What is their life cycle the life cycle of a meat chicken his approximately forty days so they're babies. They're not even they're fully not only that but they are fully grown beyond what you see in the wild. Oh Yeah I just want to know because it's a weird Wayne which we've created. These are not animals in the way we think about them their technology their technology algae can feel enormous pain but there are technology as appoint. Bruce Friedrich has made on the show before but there's something really strange about the way I will hear. People talk about well. It's naturally meet. Maybe <hes> nothing people have done it before but it's not natural necessarily this meat we have gone way past boundaries of the natural like we are operating in a whole whole new space. There's nothing natural about keeping an egg laying hen in a cage or a broiler on their own feces with tens of thousands of other. There's nothing natural. That's that's not something that an animal whatever choose to nature. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back with this. Episode is brought to you by away. 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Ra for twenty dollars off a suitcase away travel dot com slash Ezra. That's right. Hey I'm the editor in chief of the verge host the verge cast we even revamping the virtuous more and more lately coming <music> out that it's twice a week sometimes even third bonus episode on Tuesdays and talked to influential people around the world of tech like founder Bill Gates and other tech exactly founder of lime scooters the CEO of beyond meat. We must have been talking a lot of reporters and academics at the major pressing policy issues in tech like facebook's content moderation around doing great youtube harassment plan or lack thereof and whether or not the government should break up Amazon which maybe I should and then every Friday I sit down with executive editor. Peter Brown Paul Miller for chat show we cover the latest in Tech News and product reviews. We bringing our other reporters around the verge. That show is party. Listen to it. You can hear all that more. If you subscribe to the virtuous wherever you get your podcast would love for you to listen and join us so again. Subscribe to the virtuous wherever you get your best. We'll see there when you learn about this and among the people who choose not just learn about this to devote themselves to it. It's very total icing. When you look around and you see the scale of the harm the scale the death the scale the suffering the degree to which people people don't want to look at it off people who go into the animal rights movement it it changes you? I mean the world becomes grotesque like the world becomes a horror show and the people around you people you otherwise love and respect and admire. They're doing something all the time that now having opened yourself to this means jeans <hes> opponent and one of the things that I've seen that kind of politics due to people is it almost drives you off of politics. It's like it's not so much even about what you can do so much as about standing up against it right at least being a person in this age who was not complicit. I'm curious this in your early years in the movement which side of that you fell on whether it was sort of the the more radical like we need to confront people with the horrors this of what they're doing versus we need to bring them along and persuade and I don't see that with a a an affection for one side of the other that this is a it is a thing that happens to people people. I think understandably that is a very important fork in their personal path at least for some time yeah. I don't know why but I always was. It's very pragmatic. I don't know if it's because I came into this issue professionally in the United Kingdom where it was a very professional sessional space already where the United States was good ten years behind right <hes> and I had signed science background. You know I did zoology. I I just came at it like this provable like just need to get people the facts. This is not just about 'em writes. This is also about is destroying the planet. It's not good. Communities is not good for anybody. Just need to get everybody the facts. If I just work on that Oliver actually like convince everybody so we're not yeah you know and that was the hard lesson for me and I think for many activist is like if if they only knew what if people knew the facts they changed what they're doing. I just <hes> you have faith that. If humanity had more information they do the right thing and this is true in almost every big issue I will can you talk to people on climate you talk to people who deal with poverty. You talked to like there is a once you're deepened something and once you see it's injustice and you see what's happening. There's an alien nation that comes after a while when you get the feeling that the public knows really should know or can no has been given the opportunity we know why won't they right and it's a hard I found that's a hard space in people's hard moment people's evolution in organizing yeah a- and you you get you go through the phase of like. Oh my God. I learned all this information to share it with everyone and if anybody everybody knew they just changed like I did. That's phase this one right and then phase two is when you realize they're not going to and you realize and then you get angry so angry. After like I got into a good ten years afterwards like what the hell like this is. Why can't people change. Weren't they listening my family members. My friends like they know much care about this. They agree with me and then we go to dinner dinner and they're eating butterball Turkey. I don't get it and then I still have moments like that. We're have to walk away from <hes> you know a an event with with family and friends and take like sixty breasts in the bathroom because I'm like I'm GonNa lose it this is I can't believe you care about me. You know what I do. You understand how wrong this is. You passionately agree with me and then you still do it over and over again then once you get through that phase the phase that I'm at right now is it doesn't matter if I convince everyone that chickens are special. What matters is the impact so let me remember that and l. Let me find the win win to get everybody there. Everybody's got competing priorities. There's a lot of things that people are not the same and they're not gonna live their life with ethical choices being their only compass. You know choosing their food from an ethical perspective. They're just not an you. Accept sooner you kind of accepting. They're not gonNA convince everybody with a moral compass on how to eat or not eat the sooner you can get to changing and shifting things and so now I'm working with people that a decade ago I thought were the evil is people on the planet and then I'm sitting down with them in and we don't agree on a lot of things so I was in West Virginia just in the last last few days and I'm talking to ex factory farms. They hunt you know they're trump voters. They're super religious and we're sitting down and having and really important conversations about how to shift the food and farming system and I really like them. They are my friends genuinely finding friendship with people that are really different than me. They're twelve years ago. I was not there twelve years ago. What happened well. What happened was I met a farmer factory. Farming tooken factory farmer named Craig Watts so I had been moved from London to the United States <hes> around two thousand nine and I started to try to be really angry about I was living in Georgia rate surrounded like every direction chicken factory farming and I was really angry about it and and I wanted to see what it looks like and I wanna get inside and I wanted and I kept calling companies and I kept calling people and no one would answer my calls. No one would respond and you couldn't and find any photos even on the Internet. You couldn't find any there hasn't been an undercover investigation for a decade the idea that so much food hacktivism animal breads activism works off of undercover investigations so people can see where the food we eat is being produced is just a crazy. Philip in the whole thing I mean we about agag laws and other things but there are certain things that they become normal and you forget that there are weird but the fact that it takes constant <hes> illegal illegal often undercover investigations to just see what is happening where the food that we eat is produced is just a a strange fact fact the system we live in it is infuriating and it's getting worse so that people are aware there are gag laws that have been passed now which I know you know about but it it means that those who don't know about them for those who don't know about an AG GAG law which exist in states like Arkansas North Carolina which make it illegal legal it crime to report abuse in a slaughterhouse in a farm you go to jail not the abuser the reporter the whistle blower and this makes our job really difficult to shine a light on the darkness and mercy for animals where I work has <hes> has done an incredible job. We've done sixty investigations <music> over more than anybody else put together any other group undercover investigations and this has become incredibly difficult to do legally now. We are trying to navigate the system but all of the states where the majority of animals live and are raised for our food. You can't see what's happening. That is not okay. This is acting like this is like a nuclear earlier waste site or something you can't access very basics of how is our food and farming the Howard chickens. Being rates are pigs being raise. Our cows being raced but there's something really profound in that. I always think that this moment of the cards really being on the table. There's no doubt that people have dissonance around their food and we were talking a moment ago Koba frustration people who moved to somewhere like veganism or environmental eating or or some other for format of more ethically constructed food you choices feel when they can't convince her family members but also when you ask people when you talk to people you don't have to convince them that animals being tortured before they're killed bad. They don't want animals to suffer. I mean it's a very famous and often replicated survey results that people say like yeah I wanNA eat burgers but don't think slaughterhouse it should exist and you you can look at that and get frustrated by it but it also speaks to we all contradictory and conflicting impulses here and one thing that the industry has figured out is at one way to resolve that tension in their favor is to simply stop anyone's ability to confront people with the fact that what they're eating violates their values news now. Maybe people know in some way but it's very different to see it and that's to me a a on the one hand it's incredibly unjust an indecent but on the other hand and it does speak to something here which is that this isn't there are issues that I've worked on where you're really trying to convince somebody of something. They don't already believe right. They think acts they. They don't believe on climate change. You're trying to convince him. It's real or they don't believe that the government should give people health care to try and convince them that it should and then animal issues are one where you really don't have that problem. Most people think that animals should be treated well. They just don't WanNa think about it too hard. <hes> and they're not giving very much information in fact there are laws. Keep them from <music> seeing how bad it actually is and the space that people operate in is Kinda rational ignorance <hes> but it's a rationally constructed ignorance by people who are her her spending a lot of money and a lot of lobbying money and enacting laws to make sure that ignorance is is protected and sustained yeah. It's <hes> pretty clear here in my mind that if people had to watch a little video right before they bought their chicken even in the best circumstances people would walk away. I think majority of people would would walk away. They go especially there was like a cheaper plant based alternative sitting side by side and so our job as activists is to do our best is to shine a light on that darkness despite all the hurdles despite it you know our objective is to challenge this at the Supreme Court level eventually. This is unconstitutional you. You shouldn't be restricted in this way. If if let's say somebody see it from being able to see how we shot to Helene Castro who just brought out a really a good <hes> policy package among other things we get rid of agag laws and <hes> Corvara also Vegan. I think Tulsi Gabbard is beginning wrong. So there's a the beginning kind of nascent burgling of animal issues becoming part of a progressive agenda. <hes> that I think is really it's it's interesting and worth. It's something that certainly I'm tracking and trying to think about but you met Craig crediting meet him okay so Craig Watts lives in Fairmont North Carolina which is the poorest Rural County in North Carolina so the likelihood of he and I ever meeting was zero right here in Georgia. I'm in Atlanta metropolitan city <hes> but a journalist US <hes> through Reuters contact me. He wanted me to come in allies some documents he had gotten hold of which were <hes>. I met him in a coffee shop like down. The road good for me and we sat and looked at these papers is on pouring over them. I'm looking at them and they are these really confidential difficult to get pieces of information about about the antibiotics that go into the field of chickens now. This is like commercially sensitive information and I'm thinking and I asked him like where did you get this. This is insane this Mrs. I've never seen this these. These are the precise amounts that are being given to chickens over many years in one particular farm. I'm thinking he's about to say I. I did an undercover lake. Somebody snuck it out and he's like Oh yeah. This guy named Craig Watts gave it to me. AM WHO's creek. What's he's a chicken farmer for purdue and I thought this guy's probably crazy what's going on and I said well you introduce me. He starts texting and immediately. I'm hooked up with Craig Craig. I start talking over a number of phone calls and eventually I wake work up the courage to say. Can I come to your farm. I've been trying to see what this looks like and I wanna see with my own eyes can come and cannot bring a camera because I think everybody else should see two and he agreed <hes> <hes> and really the that. Can I ask you about making that. Ask Yeah because what you just said is that if people could see this they would not eat it so you're asking this chicken farmer to let you into his farm so you can use his farm as the object lesson for people should not consume his product that is not the normal will kind of request. We make of each other. What made you feel like you'd say yes or maybe or just not hang up well. I spent a bit of time talking to him. I and building some trust. We both have kids. We had plenty of commonalities that we built as a kind of foundation for the relationship I <hes> the other thing is that he was also not happy about the industry and this was why he was in a situation where he was able to talk to me. I think he also was crossing that bridge and we were meeting in the middle where he was saying that. This was at the time and since then purdue has made a lot of progress at the time they were calling this humanely raised and I was infuriated aided by it I had gone into it like a supermarket into a kroger I saw and I was shocked. I ask the meat manager. I made the meat manager like drag the box out to find out where it was going like. Wh Why is called humanely only race is there like is it a certification. Nobody could tell me and the further I dug into that it had no meaning for the animals and then Craig had similarly seen a commercial purdue had done which said the chickens are raising. You know being raised in this great way. Okay and farmers are being treated great and he was like Oh that's not true and I can't. I can't do this anymore. He had had many years of struggles trying signed to raise animals like that and he wanted out but couldn't get out <hes> which is a situation for many farmers who are under the contract farming system. We talked about the contract farming's per minute because the structure of this is probably not what people think it is so purdue. Tyson montclair these massive chicken producers right. I think the assumption so that I had is that they are raising their chickens and feeding them slaughtering them and then putting them in supermarkets. It's not true not true at all so I'll give you the context of correct so in one thousand nine hundred to Craig wanted to stay on his land. He wanted to raise his kids. In this beautiful part of North Carolina. There's nothing else going on in North Carolina tobacco industry's fallen out and to do that. He has is to find something to do so chicken industry comes to town and says here if you raise chickens for us will pick them up at the end of end of their lives and we'll pay you for that so that he's essentially like chicken babysitter right but he has to take out a giant loans. He took out a quarter of a million dollars in nineteen ninety two to build two houses and these two houses have the he has to he has to take care of all this causes like a mortgage sensually and purdue drops off off the chickens and they say the only way to pay off. This loan is if you keep raising chickens for us because remember this fairmont North Carolina. There's nothing else going on. There's no other way to pay off. This is loan so the only way you can pay it off. He keeps raising chickens block after flock after flock after flock so that goes great at first when the houses are new and clean and everything's shiny shiny and fantastic but after a while it's a factory farm the chicken start to get sick and when they get sick he gets paid less because he only gets paid for the number of chickens. It's he can bring to the slaughter weight and so a lot of them get sick. He pays the price not company right because they say it will be his management problem his health problem there was this why the company wants is to do it this way. Why do why do purdue the others not want to because you could imagine they'd want to be fully integrated. They have control over the product. I mean it's really important where you get your core product. <hes> and they're paying for a lot of this. They're giving big loans so he can build these barnes. I mean there's a lot happening here in terms of their integration. They're not just buying from producer. They're really controlling the producer why don't they just want to hold the whole thing in their own corporate structure yeah so one thing purdue doesn't give the loans are banks give the loans and blondes are backed by US tax dollars and they fail all the time and we pay for those so those two hundred thousand dollar loans that Craig was taking different a normal bank they they had nothing to do with purdue purdue prepares the paperwork the business plan that says this is why he should get this loan got it so you kind of guide farmers who the process correct and under the close connection between integrators and banks okay and those loans backed by the US tax dollar like our taxes our pay for those loans when they when they don't work out. What do you mean by that? These are private banks giving up the loans. What our tax reform well they are federally insured and so when they fail when those big we're talking about millions and millions of dollars of loans so billion sorry so for example contract chicken farmers in total? Oh five billion dollars and many of them don't work out. There aren't able to pay a default on their loans and when they default that's where the tax dollar the insurance. I will pay for that. Sorry I'm being done here but through what programmer we federally ensuring these loans I mean I understand the FDIC insurance like individual bank deposits but I I believe Fox fails and some loan the bank had another. We have a bank loan but they just eat the money that's why they would do their due diligence on the first place. Is there something special happening in the the agriculture space for those approach makes it not true. Yes and I don't know the precise details but the connection between the chicken industry is subsidized right in general including including these these private companies are subsidized Golden General General itself and this is part of that arrangement. It's part of ensuring. We always have food on our table and we always have you know chicken is considered a food that the government backs up so when for example there's overproduction the government buys it out or there's an underproduction. There's some kind of mechanism that helps to increase the price on demand. Got It so why does do this way. Well not just purdue the the chicken companies in general. If it was valuable they would take it. It's not valuable. It's the risky part of the businesses too risky parts of this business raising the chickens and it's the waste and both of those are outsourced to the farmers. That's what they outsource. They outsource the risk. It's the farmers saddle all of that risk doc and the companies take the rest which is the profitable part of the waste is probably worth talking about ferment it because it's not just pray for the farmers but their communities were these firms are concentrated concentrated. The waste is often not disposed of well and the communities really suffer yeah. There's a big extra analogy in this yes so so what happens is there's chicken litter right so the chicken litter is either the top of it is cleared out each flock or the whole thing has cleared out and then that's sat somewhere on the farm like they just sits there and it's uncovered and it's sitting there and in some states there's regulations around how long considered covered and other states. It's less stringent but then they have to do something with all this waste all this chicken letter which is a mix of like feathers and feed and feces. AC's and they just spread it on land. There's nothing else to do with it right. There's nine billion chickens defecating per year ear and they're all pooping and that poop goes onto our fields and we have high concentrations of phosphorus and nitrogen as a result that goes into our waterways. He's an at times. We'll see our waterways explode with algae and all kinds of problems that make it we can't swim in it so I live in Georgia and lake linear is one one of the largest recreational lakes in the mission and it is constantly having problems because of the surrounding chicken industry and the run off that comes from all these fields that have been sprayed and and covered in chicken poop and that runs off into our lakes and makes it unusable like I never want to go to Lake Lanier now. Oh I thinking of all of the runoff in from chicken litter that's around so they're getting out of the risk. Craig is indebted to them. It works set for awhile it stops working out right then the bills remain the same for Craig and all farmers they have the same mortgage they have to pay every month and they are completely reliant on the flocks working out every single flock. Something goes wrong. There's disease if something happens for whatever reason they can't pay that bill anymore and that happens a few times that means everything is at risk. Those loans are often tied to their land so if they default on that loan they're going to lose their land. which was the very reason they decided to do this in the first place because they want to stay on this land so a lot of farmers are fed up? There really really fed up with this system. There's something even worse within it called a tournaments system so tournament system is essentially <hes> there are a group of farmers and complex and they are competing against each other for who can bring the bird to slaughter weight than most efficiently basically the cheapest cheapest right. How can they get the biggest bird for the least amount of feed. which by the way is the worst possible scenario for welfare? What happens is the farmers at the top. Get paid more than the farmers at the bottom. Get paid less. Even other bills are the same even though the chicken company has a one commodity price mark the in the market. It costs the same to buy chicken so the farmer at at the top is literally taking money away from his neighbors if they're at the bottom and so if you stay at the bottom for a while you're going to default on your loan. You're going to not be able go to pay your bills. You're going to lose your land. Lose everything. It's it's a messed up system. Not all of the chicken industry uses the system but the large majority of large companies do and it really should it should be banned and what led Craig to to go to journalists and talk to you because y you're describing her world in which produce a lot of power over him which is scary. Gary <hes> if things are going poorly but if he goes public that's not exactly. GonNa make purdue happier with him. It's probably not going to make him a more popular popular chicken farmer. I mean what what comes next. Craig was in a unique circumstance where he had been doing this for twenty two years and almost paid off his loan. He was like six Payments Cement's away right so he felt he was in a position of not privilege. I won't call it privilege but a position in which he could go out if he lost he done the math. If you lost it all he felt lake with some part time jobs he could still make he could still pay off the rest of that loan right so he decided to to speak up and out against this industry because of that regardless it was really scary to do and he and I had many sleepless nights as I was complete INSOMNIAC during that period worrying about getting sued them cutting him off before we had time to go out publicly about this issue you and it was really scary for he was also worried. A woman neighbors think you know they're relying on this. If I you know they're going to be upset if there's the bad pr on this because that's their livelihood it's very complex system where I mean they're essentially indentured servants and I and it's scary for them to speak up in any way and for whatever reason Craig decided to anyway and I really you think that when that happened it was the beginning of change in the chicken industry the Unlikely Partnership <hes> now is the FDA of compatible farming at the time I am so I was still the animal rights activists and a Vegan animal rights activists in a chicken factory farmer coming out together. It was unheard of I've usually the with the undercover investigations. The connection between the two was totally adversarial. Where we go in like mercy for animals we go in? We expose an abuse the company then fires the person on the farm and then gets off right. They say oh. That's just one bad apple knew this was coming at it from the bottom and saying no it's a system that's wrong. This system is wrong and coming out together a farmer and an activist and animal. No rights activists coming together and saying that was just really powerful. We'll let me explore why that's a ten space. Though because one thing happening there is there's a view among a lot of Obama rights activists at what you want is not better slightly more ethical chicken farming what you WanNa see people stop eating chicken like Craig does not want or did not want to guess <hes> like an end all chicken farming he wanted was for the conditions firms like him in the conditions in which his chickens live to be somewhat better and there's always real tension particularly on something something that can feel as morally black and white as this and other people in the animal rights movement of our being accommodation EST to six system and thus becoming part of it <hes> versus is what you can do and thus you're you're. You're reducing the most suffering. How did you think about that. In what was some of the the the pushback you got from people on on your side of the aisle. Well I continue to think about things through the lens of suffering and if suffering can be quantifiable which in some ways it is my purpose is to reduce suffering and if you walk into a conventional factory farm system with it's dark and it's crowded and the animals are living in their feces and horrible life and you walk into a house that has windows and a little more space is very clear those animals are suffering less and and if there are different breed even less and so for me life is short and I'm not gonNA stop suffering on the planet but I can reduce use it and any system. That's leading us in that direction. We have to pursue the an the kind of basic analogy that I use often when people present me with this like. Aren't you just perpetuating meeting. Aren't you just perpetuating the system. I use this analogy. I say look if you were a prisoner owner in death row and your horrible prison. What would you want some advocate to do. Would you want someone to only advocate for the the end of the death penalty or would you want them to advocate for the end of the death penalty while improving your prison conditions in the time that it takes to achieve that he would very clearly one the letter and that's what animals will want if they could talk to us. That's they would say you know it's GonNa take a long time for people to stop eating animals and probably going to take some big technological offerings brings for us to achieve that in the meantime just don't don't leave us here in this horrible condition work on improving it while we move towards market in a business solution where everybody wins. There's a I think that has become a more on standard view. Is that true at the time we started doing this or was there more controversy in your circles. It's it's principal. I've always held honestly <hes> most of the time I do my moments of anger but I grew up in a I grew up. I have a WHO's a butcher and a hunter and I love him. I have a Bunko who's a geologist for Chevron. My Dad sell nuclear power plants. It's and I got into it with each of them. You know another one who worked for Lockheed Martin doing like weapons right so but I loved each of them and and I really enjoyed the conversations we had about their perspective. You could have this conversation agreeing and you could maybe change their your mind a little bit in some ways and I have definitely <hes> been criticized a lot for this approach from the more like pure interest in our movement but I think when I hear them. I think it's not that I need to convince. They're already doing the right thing. They're already not eating animals and and I don't need to reach them. I really don't I only reach them if they want to talk to the meat eaters that's my if I want to talk to them. My need to engage with them as more about getting them to be better advocates that convince others but the truth is only five percent of the United States is vegetarian and the rest rester engaging in in this practice and change much over time. It has not changed in twenty years so twenty years ago. There were really feel like it's changed. It feels to me like it's change. I mean basically nobody's nobody's Vegan but you seem to meet more vegans. It's Vegan vegetarian is the five percents so there may be more vegetarians that have turned Vegan but the there's only in the the last twenty years that number has not shift shifted and and this is a hard number for me to face but they're more animals being slaughtered today than ever before in history by a lot by lot right so that's like something that's hard for me to wake up every day and no empirically only speaking we're failing and that's true in America and also I think people understand that is global variety of China becoming richer. You have India becoming richer you have of Bangladesh and so on but in America that's true too globally. The United Nations predicts that by twenty fifty the number of farmed animals that are raised and slaughtered slaughtered will double so we're right now at about seventy billion and we're looking in by twenty fifty to go two hundred forty billion if we carry on the way we are seventy billion on the air cracked so mind boggling number. Let's take a quick break. This is Cara Swisher. I WanNa tell you about my podcast recode decode every week we have candid in depth conversations with people like Elon Musk Nancy Pelosi and Kathy Griffin. We talk about how they got to where they are today and how their work doc is changing our world new episodes of Rico decode are released every Monday and Wednesday and we often have bonus episodes on Friday subscribe for free to be the first to hear on apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast APP. This became a bigger coalition yeah such as Cohen Craig what was bigger coalition what it achieve right so there were coalition of six organizations that came together and and started to hone in on what could we change within the industry. How could we reduce suffering of the animals in the chicken industry we had learned our lessons from <hes> eggs from laying hens so in a very short period we had campaigned and got over two hundred companies to agree to go cage free by a certain date so big companies like McDonald's and Walmart and this gives us a lot of energy and faith that we could change things this was monumental toll and there were a couple lessons. We learned about that and one of them. Was We need to ask for something. That's like a time bound. Commitment is is important. We need to be very clear about what we're asking for. So cage free is super clear <hes> but there were also some things we could have done better so one of them as being more specific about Katri right so cage free is great but cates read can be all kinds of things that can be literally mean your battery cage and you open it up and they're just walking around right or it can mean in pasture-raised. It's the spectrum was really big and companies always do most companies do the minimum that they need to do so we're like okay. We have to be clearer next time time about what we're asking for and what it means for the animals we also were clear that we needed to work in a tighter coalition so previously we hadn't had all been working on the same thing but not not really talking to each other and thinking through this clear way <hes> and we formed a coalition which you can see online or open about it now. These are very different from groups. We're talking about very conservative groups to very extreme group some examples <hes> so you know h S. US is households the humane in society for the United States. This is a household name <hes> they are dead you dogs and cats you know they're friendly kind of group all the way to the humane league right the humane humane league is like a very <hes> <hes> they launched campaigns that are very aggressive and in your face and <hes> you know in. Richardson confirm involved in this coalition now these were animal rights advocates mostly there were six animal animal organizations so as mercy for animals compassion in world farming <hes> the humane main site for United States not going to remember them all now but <hes> yeah on the humane league and some others so the we came together we defined find what we would ask companies and then while we agreed. We don't have the same tactics. We don't have the same strategies. This is what we'd ask company. So every time somebody would go to a company this would be the line we would not cross and that's what we continue to do to this day we had over one hundred and forty companies now agree to these terms including and <hes> a slower growing read or a better breed of chicken with better welfare outcomes more space a controlled atmosphere stunning which means that the birds are not shackled chuckled in the slaughterhouse conscious. They're already unconscious before that so they don't they suffer less at slaughter in Richmond's and lighting so we kind of created a mini standard that we want companies to sign up to but what's more and for me the the like arc of the story is I still still can't believe it is purdue after about a year of stonewalling me. Call me up and said Hey. Let's let's Talk I had been writing them in writing them and they said you know what was covered in the New York Times you're doing. I mean this became a media thing right so he had coverage in New York times we <hes> the video in one day had a million views it blew up and they couldn't ignore it and later as well that was compatible farming and at that same year mercy for animals did an undercover investigations investigations showing what was happening so these two combined pressures <hes>. I remember Mark Mckay who is currently the president of the fresh foods at purdue. He tells the story of when they're looking at this footage for mercy for animals they they said we all can agree. This is not okay right and has anybody called them and everyone was like no no no and he's like well we should we should talk to them about this. Because we all agree this is not okay and they said okay you do it and so it's it's an interesting thing right there. <hes> we all agree. It's not okay because I think the theory in some degree the theory of the buckle up the theory of Craig in the book. Is that well. They may not want it on their hands. There are actually the ones creating the conditions which has to happen that the video you put out like what what purdue says is. Craig is about farmer. This is not okay. We would never allow it and what you are saying is. No no you've created. Craig is like a good farmer. You've decorated him as a top producer before so who's right in that is true to assume no the system is is very limited. It doesn't allow it wouldn't allow a farmer to put less chickens in that barn or different breed. Those are the basic problems like the campaign windows and unless the company wants them to or allows them to the camp put in Richmond Straw bales and things for them unless the company allows them they can't change any of the inputs but the farmers responsible for those outputs to the DM part here is it. Maybe the people didn't like this but they had enough plausible deniability on it that that even though they're the ones creating these conditions. They didn't feel like it was on them. What is your psychological explanation here. What was happening there. I believe leave. They think they thought that Craig was about farmer. I think in some ways they still think that and do you think conditions on his former worse. No I think that he had very little control control over what he couldn't couldn't do. They had just taken antibiotics out of the system and they were keeping chickens and the exact same way and now he has more disease disease and more problems on a typical chicken farm. These are these are standards statistics at the National Chicken Council puts out. There's around five percent mortality. That's considered normal. I mean fibers of the birds go in there are dying like they just do and the job of the chicken farmer is to pick up the dead birds words and that means that over this short forty day period thirty thousand birds right. That's fifteen hundred birds die. That's it's normal. That's the job seems like thirty forty birds a day. That's their job is to pick those up. You talk about walking through with Craig in the morning this something the pharmacy Joel need to do and just going through and doing killings of all the deformed or lame or let me just by hand like snapping out their necks yeah cause cervical dislocation and it's snapping the access to the house to happen farms but the scale of it. I mean doing it day after day. That was daily job. Daily job of a farmer is if you talk about talk to chicken pharmacist. It's actually backbreaking difficult world and I also wonder what it does to a person psychologically to go through the houses and half to find the week decrepit birds or the runs. The runs are like <hes> that's not worth the Matt. Let me do the math on that bird like. I'm not sure it's worth the feet. I'm going to kill the bird early because it's not worth it and you go through and it's you know it's thirty to forty birds per day in a thirty thousand feet. Just you know I'm saying on average and what really happens is is towards the end. There's a lot more because then they really are like hanging on and they can't really function very well and then the problem is at the end the farmers having to do the math right right like already. Put all this money through the feed into this bird. Can they hang on for three more days even though they look good. They look like they should be euthanized but I'm going to hang on because if I killed at birth as money out of my pocket book citing froze consumers yeah I mean the farmers I was just with in West Virginia. They we had this horrible disease gangrenous dermatitis. It was essentially it's essentially it's it's it's a it's a bacteria that he's the birds from the inside out and and it it's really repulsive and it sucked the birth suffer a lot so in a twenty four hour period you'll see the birds and it looks like they're not it's not happening and then the next day or just fine in this like gelatinous mush of Purple Green right towards now what happened the way they get it. It's really through eating the feces. That's on the litter. It's through like a cock city of stat that settles in their gut and then emerges like twenty two to thirty days later and starts to manifest itself in some of the animals calls and then the birds get sick and it can double it doubles the infection every in the flock every day right so farmer knows if they've got it. Oh no like this is going. GonNa Happen and they just can't keep up so when I was working these farmers they were pulling four hundred birds out of a house you know in a day and then it'll be eight hundred the next and then you know that more of birds have it but they go off to slaughter and they end up on our plates so we know that diseased birds are ending up on our plates we know that <hes> and and that's not just from like infectious diseases but also like myopathy is that are happening in the in the muscles meaning like actual muscle tissue is starting to break it down in these animals in the chickens so we have something called. White Striping in woody breast which is losing hundreds of millions of dollars for the industry right now because the bird is made to grow so fast that the breast tissue starts to break down and they've defined it as woody breast spaghetti meat and and white striping so if you go into a supermarket you can sometimes see these white stripes and you're like. Oh that's marveling or what is that. It's not it's disease. It's like muscular disease of the birds. It's called White Striping striping. You can google it. It's super easy woody breast Google it. It's been it's where the it's literally woody. This is all gross but does it hurt humans. I mean people eat a lot of chicken. They're not mainly getting sick sick. They don't they well. They're not getting sick from any of these things but they do get sick from campylobacter and chicken is one of the main <hes> vehicles for humans woman's getting campylobacter and Salmonella. One of the the evolutions you go through in the buck is moving from seeing the farmers running these <hes> chicken factories. I guess from being the people in charge of the system right the people you're fighting to being victims of system and that seems like a very big perspective change for you. <hes> do talk a bit about that. Yeah <hes> it's still something. I struggle with sometimes and I know my colleagues struggle with to to try to get to grips with that concept <hes> and and I really lean on. I'm not the first person to come across this concept. It's nonviolence. It's Martin Martin Luther King Gandhi Gandhi when he was in India. He went to the general and he said Oh. I'm going to change this policy in the government him and he's going to do that and he said with your help. I'm GonNa win with your help and and and he did and it's this concept of I'm not in charge of a single animal. The farmers are and the chicken industry are if I want to change that industry the most efficient way I'm very like like efficient person the most efficient way to do that would be to convince McDonald's to do it and Tyson and purdue if I can convince them by whatever means necessary to change. That's that's means. It might happen in my lifetime. which is what I want to see and sitting down first of all with Craig was understanding standing? He's human being just like me and we have a lot in common a lot more in common as to human beings than I thought we would. We have three kids like we care about the same things in many ways is he cares about his environment so starting to make those connections was really really important and made me see him as a human being and and then allowed me to see Jim Perdue as a nice guy that I enjoy talking to now and finding which is like even now. I'm like Oh my God who's GonNa write. Let me hate mail right now right but it's true and there's always these common common ground you can find because they're human beings. They have families families. They go on vacation. They like sports teams like you can find these like commonplaces to tear down the walls that that we arbitrarily set up between our so called enemies and ourselves so this is somewhere where I want to widen it out beyond your work in animal rights work one thing that I see a lot of in politics whatever issue people working on enough time it's just when they're not working on an issue at all they're just on twitter or on cable news or wherever they might be is is almost what I've come to think of as an anti-politics an effort to raise up the walls between people and like write them out of the story. <hes> these are people who are powerful they people may be so you need to win over but but they become irredeemable to you where there's a lot of showing on this side and I'm not on that side and when the stakes of the things you're dealing with our moral and their high people suffer that makes a lot of moral sense <hes> and it can even be times of politically productive. It's very very a hard practice to try to reorient the way you experienced people who are carrying out or supporting something you think of as <hes> <hes> awful but oftentimes in politics if you're going to win you need the general on your side. I'm curious about this. As a practice to you. You have talked a bit about what you have kids and they have kids but a lot of people have kids and a lot of people kids end up writing each other off pretty easily so what is happening in you. What are you doing yourself to try to get over that aversion or even do not feel personally compromised like you're losing sight of the Horace. You're fighting <hes> in order to make sure term accommodations combinations with because like it feels good to coalitions like how do you navigate that. It's really hard. You're always walking align <hes> but I stay focused on on impact and I try not to get hung up on my I think it's a danger we get hung up on our principles and wanting to look good and and feel good by being angry and blaming but that name does achieve things but most of the time it doesn't and I try to remain in a space where I'm constantly like a calculator thinking. Does this achieve reducing suffering. Does this move the needle. Is this going to take a step in the right direction that I need to get to and by taking that lands of is this going to get me closer to the goal. It helps me get less hung up on ensuring the person agrees with me. I think the most basic tenant of that is that you don't need to agree on everything to make progress us and you don't even need to agree on the central reason why you think something can move needs to move forward so with any of these issues unluckily for me. Factory farming hurts so many aspects of our world environment human health communities animals. I come on it because I care so much about animals but it turns out out. Farmers are not being treated. Well it turns out. Processing workers aren't being treated horribly too so if their main thing is we need to you you know make some some adjustments in progress and we can find that place where there's this overlap. That's where I try to focus. How do you hold back the feeling that you just just a moment ago. The the idea that being angry that declaring your opposition that can feel like an an an action in itself selfish can feel like a a moral urgency in itself right in that. I'm sure they're they're people in the animal rights movement who have big followings and are able to exert a lot of pressure. Asher and it's about sort of drawing that line deeply like we are not part of this like we are not complicit in this and I see that in politics a lot more broadly I mean a lot of politics is expressive and symbolic and like I am not complicit you know not my president and is not a an impulse you feel or do you ever sort of look look at the way other people are talking and kind of feel a little bit weird about who you're working with. I'm I'm disturbed with that complexity that I've done with my career and my work has really changed how I feel feel about what's going on our country right now and I am very sad that it is really hard for me to have a conversation seven or even find anybody to have a conversation with that disagrees with me we built these bubbles and we stay in our tribes and the tribes ensure we don't venture out of that tribe and that's mostly through social media and I wanNA understand. I have a deep yearning curiosity for like why do you think <hes> and maybe there is something you have to have an open mind. Maybe there is a reason why somebody has taken the stance. That's equally as powerful as your reason to take this stance and while you may not agree there might be something you can agree on and that's where we can start to make some changes ages. I'm very concerned about how polarized we are now. I you know I have a family. That's divided in half about who voted for who in the last election and and we cannot talk about these things. It's just not on the table but what I found interesting is when he went to West Virginia. I did have a conversation with them about guns about Donald Trump by all these things that we are different on. I learned so much talking to them and I. I just wish those spaces were more available in our country. They're you're not right now and they need to be if we're going to actually break this moral gridlock that we're in. I think this can be hardest families. <hes> I was reading something the other day about the respect that emerges from distance when you're further from someone or something it can be easier to know less about it and be more curious about it whereas when you're closer when it is your family can feel more like a judgment on you where you were talking earlier about people in your family and personalizing that feeling of them eating meat like how can you do this to me. How can you not be convinced by what I am telling you like. I'm a professional political pundit and communicator and like there are people in my family. I cannot convince on key political issues and it's hard you you know it's a it is harder for me to talk about that with them. Sometimes it is for me to talk to like George will on this podcast right despite the fact that George well-nigh much further apart <hes> and so the I do think this is an interesting thing where people can the feeling that it can be so hard so close can actually obscure that it can be easier for their way. I've heard the argument that a problem with social media with twitter is that it collapses distance. It makes everything feel close. It makes everybody feel near. It makes everything feel flat when actually it sometimes you want to feel a little bit more alien so that you can approach it as an explorer <hes> or persuader or a coalition builder older as opposed to <hes>. It's so close if you can't win. Well what does that say about your ability to win over anybody else right. If you can't commits your family like what does that say about your ability to actually win the issue. Yeah I mean most of us. Don't behave within our families the way we behave at work right. We don't if if I'm sitting there debating the industry or here on this podcast the way I'm talking to you. Unfortunately I issues not to do so much at Thanksgiving dinner you know and if I did I probably do a better job of convincing my friends and family oriented also just avoid the subject because I don't want to lose their <hes> closeness. I just think we've had a couple of run INS. We got really really heated really fast and you know what life is short. You're my dad. I don't WANNA lose that that relationship and you you just put that to one side because in the that's one person you know convincing that one person is different and then convincing system and the work I do is really not down about is really admitting we don't have to commence individuals. We have to convince systems. We have to institutions so when I the work that that we do now is about institutional change and institutional change means that means that if I change McDonald's mind on something I change angel choices for hundreds and millions of people and that changes the lives of billions of animals. I think there's a real relief in being able able to see things <hes> systems to for exactly the reason you're you're discussing here. Some writing book about politics and a big part of that book is understanding politics as a system not as a collection of individuals sales people make the decisions and make the compromises the system incentivizes them to make and there is respite in that because because if you've gone into a place where you're so furious at the individuals you've exerted such moral judgment on them that they seem irredeemable to you now or or they're they're very action. Suggests such an unbridgeable Gulf that what work is really do together but if you can see us all as part of a system making decisions at are are shaped somewhat beyond us doesn't fully take away or moral agency but most people will do with the system tells them to do <hes> and that includes even good people right a lot of good people in a good system and a lot of people make decisions. We don't like are are reasonable. People trapped in a bad system and I feel to me it can sometimes is be a helpful way of demoralizing issue to recognize that well if you could change the system around people than these very same people make very different choices and there's hoping that it it means that you've lost people. What you've lost is an institution and you. Can you can fight an institution without losing faith in humanity. Yeah much of my objective is just to take the bad choices off the shelf because most people are in a rush. They're not thinking and we just need to take if you think about it that they're like. You said there's a system they were trying to change and people are implicitly system. They're buying into the system without understanding the real consequences. They're not really choosing the the consequences of that system. They're doing it because it's what everybody else does. It's cheap. It's convenient. It's the norm if we take away those bad choices we take the bad choices off the shelf and menus in my case. I don't think people would notice that much and I'm trying to reframe the argument. It's not us against them. <hes> it's all of us against the system is harming us that needs to be changed that we need to work together and to do that. You have to find the winds for everybody under that system to really be able to push the agenda forward. Let me touch on. Something else came up earlier. We're talking about the scale of this. We're talking about how uncomfortable can be to destroy it in the face. Even just talk about him. You were talking about the difficulty. You have waking up in the morning knowing that the number of animals in this system has been going up not down. How do how do you manage just the scale of what you're working on and the pain that you've opened yourself up to in it like how do you go home and that have a normal day. <hes> how does how do you manage having a sort of personal life on an individual scale and then also having open yourself up to the suffering on this global seventy billion a year scale and not go crazy who said. I'm not crazy there. <hes> it's really tough. I definitely have my my dark. Moments and most activists do where you kind of think <hes>. What am I doing when I just when I it's not gonNa work less one and I just like enjoy. My kids are growing up in my oldest is eleven and without a doubt in seven years he's Outta here and that's like terrifying that I'm spending my time fighting the system where I feel like I'm spinning my wheels sometimes and and what I'm giving up Israel giving up I'm giving up <hes> watching. These parts of my kids lives that I'm not going to get to see no because I'm off fighting factory farming but at the same time I think about the world that I'm GonNa hand them and the world. I want them to have the world. I want other animals to have wildlife the planet want to exist after I'm gone and I couldn't do anything else I couldn't. I couldn't sit knowing that I could have done something. Even if it was a sinking titanic I I couldn't. I couldn't be part of that system. The only choice for me is to try to reduce suffering to try to you know I think I said it before is it's very kind of Buddhist concept but suffering existed before I was born. It will exist after the best you can do is try to reduce IT A. I think it's a good place to end this. Let me ask you. The question was used to close which has three books you'd recommend <hes> the meat racket by Christopher Leonard. It's book really eight that educated me on the contract. Farming system for chicken farmers really talks about the difficulties of the farmers and explains the contract system <hes>. It's another book called big chicken. I'm going to be all chicken books all poultry. Let's say let's all birds so <hes> big chicken by Maryn McKenna and and she wrote a book about antibiotics the chicken industry and how they really grew up together and how you know eighty percent of our antibiotics are now at risk or eighty eight percent of our antibiotics fed to farmed animals and really that's the chicken industry and and they don't they're starting not to work and she really talks about how that happened. And how pressure on welfare in improving animal welfare will <hes> be a challenge for us as we try to pull antibiotics out <hes> and then the last one is a totally obscure book <hes> <hes> which is called illumination in the flatwoods by Joe Jojo and he is he wrote about he's like Park Ranger in Florida and he found two dozen Turkey wild Turkey eggs and decided that he would try to raise them and they basically the thought he was the mom and he became a like a mother Turkey and lived with them in the flatwoods of Florida and you get this Lake Puta Amazing enjoyable insight into both like the flatwoods Florida but also turkeys how cool they are and his love for Tom and his humor about them. It's beautiful enjoyable story and your book is called grilled turning adversaries and allies to change the chicken industry. They Garcia's. Thank you very much coach. Thank you thank you to leave for being here. <hes> thank you to Cindy Guilford engineering to worship Karma for researching Geld for producing is reclined show is vox media podcast podcast network production and my email as always reclined show at box dot com. Hey It's John Genero executive producer of espy nations team podcasts the NFL seasons almost here and if you're like me you'll confer podcast that covers your team to get caught up on before the kickoff of the regular season. espy nation has got you covered. We've created thirty two. NFL podcast one for each team's fan base hosted by fans of that team if you're looking for a deeper funnier Nerdier and more authentic podcast experience than anywhere else. You'll definitely want to check it out not every. NFL Fan is the same espy nation is there for the ones that want to hear about their eighteen subscribe today and you'll get new episodes for news game previews and recaps indepth analysis and more find the podcast for your favorite football team at SP NATION DOT com. Tom Slash NFL podcasts. I hate this. Matthew yglesias host of the weeds podcast here at box. I WanNa let you know we're doing a new thing on Fridays where I sit down on. One on one with experts from academia think-tanks advocacy groups around town to go sort of really in depth particular issues in their expertise. I think you're GONNA enjoy it a lot. Ah Please check it out weeds podcast every.

United States pain North Carolina purdue Craig Craig Georgia United Kingdom producer veal Florida Craig Watts Ezra Klein London League Garcia England Lee Garces university of Bristol president
EMERGENCY SERIES, EPISODE 4: Young people, body image and mental health in a pandemic with Caoimhe Green and Tanisha Barrett from OTR

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31:56 min | 9 months ago

EMERGENCY SERIES, EPISODE 4: Young people, body image and mental health in a pandemic with Caoimhe Green and Tanisha Barrett from OTR

"I am Welcome to body cons. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Molly Forbes. And this is usually the part of the podcast when my co-host Loti says I'm Lottie story except Lahti is actually sitting here with me today during the pandemic were actually recording this slightly different days. So if you're listening to this thinking why is molly on her own whereas Lottie gone? This is not some sort of salacious gossip. There's no drama. It's not like when Jerry left the spice girls or I don't know when Robbie went solo leaving tape that no not at all. Laci is very much here. She's done the interview this week and next week it will be me during the interview. And we're basically taking in tons so if you've listened to previous episodes of body cons previous series. You'll know that usually it's very much a conversation between me and Lottie together around our kitchen table and then we go off together and we travel around the country and we interviewed various different experts. Oviously that is not possible at the moment. Lachey lives in Bristol. I live in Devon so. We're recording the POKU separately. I'm putting it together and hopefully you will still appreciate this. Glorious Mishmash the brilliant different people that we're speaking to and you'll be kind to us and not be to cross the audio. Might not sound as polished as you used to so normally we shy going up or going down but we thought for this emergency series of party cons. No one needs to head the going down going down around us everywhere the moment so we thought instead we would just take it in turns to chef from that. We both love so this week. It's my turn and I wanted to share something that I saw Ruby Tondo tweets last week there was a TV show on BBC solely problematic TV. Show I'm not gonNA name it because I'm not going to be negative but I was not a fan and Ruby. Tondo is not a fan either and so she wanted to chef some loveliness and joyous stuff about eating and food and kind of a healthy relationship with food even looks like and this is actually something that I read in tally. Reis Book recently. It's a quote from Ellen. Sata from her book which is a one thousand nine hundred. Eighty three book called secrets of feeding a healthy family. Ellen Sata is a Dietitian and psychotherapist and I just saw the way that she talks about eating and what normal eating in inverted commas is. I just saw. It was just really lovely so I'm going to read it to you. Normal eating is eating competence. It is going to the table hungry and eating until you are satisfied. It is being able to choose foods you enjoy and eats it and truly get enough of it. Not just stop eating because he thinks he should normally eating is being able to give some thought to your food selections so you get nutritious food but not being so wary restrictive that you miss out on enjoyable food. Normally eating is giving yourself permission to eat. Sometimes because you are happy sad or board or just because it feels good normally ting is mostly three meals a day or four or five or it can be choosing to munch along the way. It is leaving some cookies on the plate. Because you know you can have some again tomorrow or it is eating more now because they taste so wonderful. Normally eating is over eating at times feeling stuffed and uncomfortable and it comes under eating at times and wishing you had more normal eating is trusting your body to make up fuel mistakes eating normally eating takes up some of your time and attention but keeps its place as only one important area of your life in Short. Normally eating is flexible. It varies in response to your hunger. You'll schedule your proximity to food and your feelings and I thought it was a really good thing to share this week when maybe where all experiencing changes to our routines were eating in different ways. Access to food might be different. Everything's different at the moment so I thought hopefully that might bring some comfort and reassurance to anyone listening right now so this week we have a wonderful interview Lottie has spoken to Kiva Antonija from Bristol in South Gloucestershire Mental Health Social Movement. Ot are says a mental health social movement for young people and Kiva Antony show are doing such important brilliant work in the area. I want to put a trigger warning head they do discuss eating disorders. So if this is something. That makes us distressed. Listen to please do take care. It's a really lovely reassuring inspiring. Listen but as I have If you need to fast forward some bits then do that and you know. Protect your own mind. His lottie and Kiva unto Nisha August today got in touch with body cons by the star of series one to tell us about body image workshop. They developed for young people so Welcome keep it Green Anthony. She Barrett's high. You WanNa introduce yourselves and tell listeners. About what is that you to do. Make yes minding his key on. I went off the Bat Codes. Which is a in people's men's health Than say our nation's left in Arkansas. Twenty five and one of mine ball was within the which is Kinda Place with Iran's developing Shameless Say I still am having project These big sites living trainings are cooled. Ask Me Hey. I'm T- sash and University of Bristol of mental health advice and that was a little bit. I was like an Australian T- as a mental health ness life backgrounds by the House for about ten years on. Yeah shameless that fill up Mtti eighteen we create to death in. Yeah say yeah. I think that would be a really good compensation for us to have. Today is how young people particularly that of eleven twenty five age group might be doing in terms of damage during the Pun democ. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah I think if somebody I think especially the young people while vessel about how you even less tournaments. They usually with a school. A MATH. Gasol technique groupings. That we'd be doing to cut up. I think is probably quite annoying reaction top. Barry's issues come up. Nordstrom body miss any any kind of issues? Whether it's lame you stuff. I think I'm Yada disordered. Eating issues. AIDS recovery winning I think is probably quite a risky time. Connery says Syria. I think that publishes offense young people even more say at the most Matchy Vice Masters to jail in Tanzanite unaccessible AIDS at a time. I guess like he's messages. Oversee the compensation right social media comes up with is higher than an invitation to audience. I guess thinking about whether it's not Susan coming off Is quite big culprit amendment in some ways of time? People highway should be dealing with this whole pandemic in high. They should be looking after that. Physical Men's warehouse and usually that is Ryan Diet and exercising at all. I'm pressing the funding really unhealthy is. I'm not accessed actual say yeah. I think definitely social media renew. There's kind of precious to be doing. Things will be just masturbating right nine and I even like I think we talked about immigration Around Social Media and I guess people who are experts and actually quite often experts may be people quite Slayton King he kind of brought themselves access in detraction racks On that in create lots of programs or by space starting that that not true what he saw as in how they look anyway. But I think especially Numidian. Ben Stiller Blake. And it's not about you. Keep the sharing was how van that everyone is next themselves by all people sharing information so saying this is what will help you on. The air is about essentially not being kind to foul or allowing us out just to be his toy even like anybody to change allowing it to get big at the box be okay as is around so images of is why pace corentin body. Oh my God. It's going to be big. We saw a think everyone and young people. It's just it's just not how it's no. Is it an unas by as well? Young people might find themselves spending a bit more time maybe on social media because they all kind of distracted by school college or whatever and and using that space to connect with their friends but at the same time maybe taking some of those kind of diet culture messages. That still seem to be as strong in a slightly different kind of version during upon Democrat as they were before. So I'm just wondering if you can recommend any self good resources that young people listening. Maybe parents of young people could could access to to help at this time. Yes I am. Obviously young people car-based in Bristol Shameless or damage creek is still running. So take with virtual space nine sites. We go a running behind fully if you sign up till nine and by going through the author website and on the Shameless Age Antifreeze. Bruce will continue or if no in virtual they will definitely be signed by beginning. Pass when luxury outs normal. And if not based in Brooklyn Size Ghost we've got an instagram page. Which is just a shame. Let's and on that. This latest recommendations seem to fall a on just general Just engage in more politics and compensations positive station media am Amityville say some previous was on the shameless page on the off the record website which anyone can access some kind of not sure late and I am not mindfulness. Exercises of site Hype Visa Video Vice Guys. Eight. I think I passed. Impressionists toughened about high. Everything's GonNa be kind of schooling Human and high even Actually he's taught in audiovisuals too geico yet give it a lot lesson. Plans wishes zero-some say if any parents Doing edge says lights Online such as the self esteem projects this one could body confidence project which is by Diana was Nice. Ups and fatigue is also likes stuff at the. Sat's aviation website which has like guidance on discussing bodies in schools. Say like Iraq men check out stuff. That sounds brilliant. They will link to all of those in the show notes for this episode as well so that listeners can find that stuff really easily. So you're feeling the same sorts of things like some of that stuff's coming up for you and I just I was quite interested in what you said about the this of mindfulness techniques. And just wondering what? You're doing yourself to to kind of count some of those messages that you're getting yeah. I I myself kind of like a waste this big pressure to exercising and doing all these things might actually just tyneside absolutely hates it. Adams. It's like a constant Day this kind of Goes eight I think one in law of is challenging that thinking quite the Maimon is being kind of what? I'm doing this kind of comparison type kind of thinking other people want saying social media and instead just kind of validating will I think I needs like all night that if I picked up a paintbrush painful for me just good for mental health as someone else got stopped? I think it's kind of just really taking off shooting. That's just tap into your body's needs Singing on why do you need to get through this pump banknote? What does everyone running five k? Need is actually think I was clearing you. Ot Side I think like it's changing in king and Iran's yeah mindfulness in the mind of what your body's asking you for not Maimon saying yeah. I think you're right. I think he just practiced David checking in video stopping the day holiday. Now what do I need example monitoring like why it's fast speed? I think especially Yuasa Or is coming out any disorder even Hans. One in the nation out that right now might not be right In terms of eating way intensive reducing what you eat Things actually by is not going to be. How if I was ending the day. Best Ashley if you stood. Events E at eating rates of excise excise is usually about united. Reggie Snoop audio change you money. Say It's always stuck is going to be up to fight so I think it could be. How checking in at Achi working out is good fee hikes to was being out there and I guess that's I guess the big H. Irvine's if kind of again they matched us from the fast place the seller is people are spending more time on station year at the magazine. And that's where the messages are coming from. So I guess. An additional adamant uninviting within the current situation is having a color though social media aides. Actually I've been finding myself really trying to find these kinds of telling me it's not is really not exercise and it doesn't matter how much you eat by nonense kaneohe productive his seeing this kind of message that validates igniting the other people feeding the same way because other people will be feeding sunrise us on just waiting necessarily be pasting it so. I think it's really important that we are really hitting what we all kind of taking. In the media the mining's file to finitely an is not just social media. Either is it. That was a cover of times to had Joe Wicks on Adrian. Who Does the Yoga Youtube Channel and it was all about that soft diet? Maths wasn't if like what amount of exercise do you need to do? In order to eat a certain amount of food or some type of food and I think that was. I didn't watch it but earlier in the week. That was a horizon program that was kind of the same messaging on it. And I find it extraordinary that that these the someone's making a decision that that is appropriate content per out during blooming condemning. It just seems so tone. Deaf does not a shock in its. It's just amion is just capitalism on speeding along this idea. Everybody's at high point nine how we can talk them benefit from Nice feelings of guilt and shame. We're not leaving and doing exercise and how we can make money. Diet books. Exercise Physiology is the people by now is like his stoppings has spent many on the industry in quotations and the Diet Industry. It's GonNa throw you had just so in health who identify pather. Bake as a TV Outbound on the BBC instead of thinking about how they stick theory about the war is useful. Roy Now let's gliding pandemic like how? How would you get the answer? Yeah I go into a bit of an. Ill advised of twitter argument with someone about last show and she was like well. You know no better time than the present to start thinking about your health. I was like define health. Like what are you trying to say to me? It feels like a mole. Helpful thing to do would be to have about like stopping smoking all like helpful because I think is what we were saying like. Tv shows or in isolation stations we have ingredients with young people. Yeah United Things. I bring up that. They struggle with our around. Selena tending like a GP surgery. And being that maybe for like news award contraception even or anything. Not See people took a your weight when you got back and so you'll be I'm all I think people talk about right off and like p lessons going to school with an accident. Peop- savings company up in as usually around around way for the. Yeah those people. Yeah that's cool said the habits of rates agenda While we definitely as Paul who's the conversations that we have put the image we at Shane Company dying just emphasize voting which is being Days because dot site often was emphasized voice based on all the time and I feel that the time is kind of forgotten lost conversations of I'd highlight insects citing the other areas or identity. Say when we of when we're talking about this kind of stuff again equal. We acknowledged that he can be different if we are blocked. Novelty Michigan. Between our. We are women or if we are transgender. I think he's just such a huge station. Spending comes to to put the engine actually especially equal this time. That is narrow. School is such a huge area of identity development in which is going to be honest conversations. But Yeah I was just making sure we dying guests And that is just yeah right now and the time is not the biggest concern in a while and not since the reading. These fakes is quite disproportionate. Isn't it to to what things are really important. I think just kind of really skied for for all the even the idea of the of having like twenty minutes where you can go out and exercise affair got as a message is quite as it now. It can have different effects on different people. Couldn't it? Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah Yeah I really. I really struggle. With 'cause it's Ni- become like a thing about negative in Connecticut is not Should should must have set a Moscow inside. I even by Onesie Day I must guy announced really hard By young people disillusioned saying Oh With Iraq sizing those things it just becomes a active in making. They have some things in musty off every teen around exercise and actually a low of exercise every day joining signing people that were ready all sane people actually physically cannot access all AIDS Guiding on that justice is he's Being good enough and that should get nine feel out of time and I think that should really be as quiet hotlines owner as well. I guess it's why immigrant community how to locate. They could a company. Restructuring advances have just like creating more flexibility with your idea about like you know should I mysterious and I guess that would you take Andrea icon Scout. Even of not. Okay here I guess they would insides you. Australian and united on a thing kitten is really good topic pools and just tonight just tonight's APPs feeding goods thinking this thing is actually giving ill creel To move that than look at how to make it more. Flexible than especially excise intuitively archie. Making it firm like excising into the employees will be sedated following the all the big audience. Yes drastically people. Casimir got jasmine various. People at the site could see royalty evening especially not stabbing each student who receives the same called. Pay For the ease at it. Makes me feel like you can't do down? And it's I think that right it's like your perception of yourself at a p Achy limits what you think you condemn. What's space you cannot? She occupy images so it saves sobbed. It's as odd. It really. Is it a. We had a similar conversation with Jada says a in the last series. I think where she was saying the same thing like you've got to kind of see it to be it just having that kind of Seeing someone reflected back at you on screen who whose body is a bit more like yours is. It just feels so much more inclusive. Doesn't it just feel more inclined to want to do think reading ice arenas poem by re Pico or by Are Not GonNA quite adequate late? But it's basically a mind of butterfly is surrounded by Moss won't be Moss is think is interesting when I think about it idea about you. Like flies remains ing but they never see themselves that. You're not going to release your anything on. It should be something different and I just think it's just it's just treat everything isn't even be on forty inch Win that we have decent sanitation that actually reflects incredible doc- we have in the wild. Yes in Miami. I think if you impressed in by growing up to the very white area and yeah I'm black. Oc people on evening. I ever buck women beyond a certain things teenager and when I think about it in that it was to try to fit in and oversee being black in a very white environment. You can't you know you call. I make yourself Anymore United States by one thing. The People County is way. I think that's validations teenagers. Actually Pretty Awful lucky stature. Minto things especially for black young people ought to be accept Ten idea that could actually face struggles. And actually it's it's it's quite shot today with an elegant people think browns. The so hard isn't it and I think you're right. You know if you don't see anyone who looks like he you and you just feel like you have to kind of you while the House to change I really. I'm GonNa look that poem because I think that's a really lovely one. I'm sure the listeners will want to have a cobas. Well that's been a conversation and yeah we'll make sure that we keep all of those resources on the show notes so that listeners. Kenner confined everything there. I think he does. That was great. Hope you enjoyed that brilliant interview. Thank you so much to Keefer Antony Shifa coming on and sharing that time with us at the moment when I know many of us don't have a huge amount of time before I go. I wanted to remind you the IR. Inbox is always open. You can get in touch with us on instagram and twitter. We are at body cons. Podcast I know that this is a time when lots of people are feeling like they don't necessarily want to be on social media so much because frankly we're all probably last nerve and getting a bit irritated by things that's fine but also if you're feeling a huge amount of community and solidarity from social media we're hey if you want to chat we are still around so just drop us a message. You can also email us. We are body. Paul costs at gmail.com. And that is what one lovely listener did last week. We got this message and I want to read it out here. Because it's it's just a really lovely message. But also I thought some people listening to this might relate to this lady story. I'm not going to identify her because she shared this with us. And I don't know she wants to remain anonymous or not so. I'm just GonNa read you the message but thank you to the woman who sent him she says. Good Morning Molly and Latif first of all thank you from the bottom of my heart your Po- cast which only just discovered is recommended by very good friend. Is Everything that I have been needing in my life. I've been listening while walking my dog and it continues to put a smile on my face particularly in such bizarre times from a very young age. I've suffered with weight issues. I was always viewed as difference and the fat one. Even when I was seven or eight as I enjoyed watching wrestling and rugby I went to dance classes. No never forget the mums talking about me instead. I ended up playing rugby which I love but at that time I was still far bigger than the boys by the time two year rated school. I've just about had enough. I stopped eating and soon was visiting the doctors every other day to be weighed you to my anorexia uncontrollable and enormous strain on my family. I don't think I have ever quite recovered and continue to have down but I do now feel much more in control. I'm now twenty five recently married and still watching wrestling and rugby. I could not believe the horrific comments an unrealistic expectations. That were expected of me as bride. Every magazine was filled with tiny models and beautiful dresses. And the awful comments about when I was starting my wedding diet is if I wasn't good enough I really don't think people realize what they're saying is her for and can be incredibly damaging. My absolute horror was browsing the aisles. In shops I will name and shame home bargains here. You had a diary on sell to achieve wedding weight loss goals. I mean seriously at this point I thought and what well did we saw saying. We aren't good enough. Our current weight to put on a wedding dress for the best and happiest day of Your Life. My hugest problem at the moment as rightly talked about in your recent poke causes a shift in perception of body image during the corona virus pandemic and. I'll be honest. I feel like I've been truly sucked into it. My instagram feeds are full of high walkouts. Jim Related adverts etc sector for someone who's now seemingly doing more workouts and walking more than ever. That still doesn't feel like it's enough the past weeks. I felt myself slipping into a vicious cycle of food being my reward for exercising and exercising as a reward for food but this morning. Listening to your recent podcast. A decided enough was enough. It's time for me to start loving me for being me. I'm not just a body. I am a human being. I'm a wife I am a sister. I am daughter. I have feelings have a lot of warmth and love to give. I'm a lot more than just what is on the outside enough other. People don't like it. Fuck them so again. Thank you for your amazing pocus is everything we need during this pandemic. I feel like MiG listening to other people up and talk about their experiences. Because it's so relatable to how I have been feeling too I feel like I'm not alone and there's no shame in openly talking about how we feel keep smiling and stay safe. That was just the loveliest message to receive in our INBOX. And this is exactly why we make this podcast. It's so lovely to think of you on your walks or I dunno doing you cooking in the kitchen and having this podcast on and we really appreciate each and every one of you who's tuning in on being here and will not know if you would like to share the love every single rate and review and chat and subscribe makes a difference allows us to keep making this. Podcast allows new people to find this podcast and allows us to carry on making these podcasts amongst all other work that we've got going on and home schooling on just surviving in this pandemic. We'll be back next week for more conversations about bodies in lockdown. Thank you so much for listening goodbye.

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