2 Episode results for "University Of Banja"
Has the Internet Permanently Changed How We Speak?
"Happy new year jordan it is so freaking potters to be podcasting with you again in two thousand twenty one happy new year. Obviously pogos though. Yeah i mean you know you you have a good break that you pair any dog goes god i hate. I hate when people say. I'm so sorry. Like papa mcginnis dog and pub perfectly good words and quicker to say. Yeah i kinda hate it too but you know the fact remains that you have you know you have a good new year's eve are you gonna any percent run this year to speed run through. That might be the best way to cope with what this year is going to bring us. Honestly so as you can probably guess i've been spending this break feeling old and thinking about how the internet is changing our language. The way we speak the language has always changed but it seems to be changing faster because of the internet and technology. So is this true or just getting older. both both faith is good as the meam says shosha. Yeah and here is some people who may or may not agree with you. The internet has been a revolution for language in the sense that it's offered new possibilities of communication. That were that before. The internet gives us the ability to communicate with more people beyond our physical geographical location. And let's information spread faster. That is david crystal and gretchen mcculloch to expert linguists and authors and our guests for today's episode. They're going to help us. Navigate internet lingo and help us figure out. is it a language runar or a timeless and unavoidable phenomenon. The experts will break it down for us and we'll talk about the origins of some popular internet slang when we get back the english language logs on and may never log off again. Hey i'm akia one. Here's something scary every week that something scary podcast brings you the scariest legends stories and tales of the supernatural. That you've ever heard we are horror junkies whether it's ghosts suck you buy are shape. Shifter's we have something for you. Do you have a story. You wanna share each week. We get hundreds of stories from our listeners. We adapt them and then share them on the podcast. So you get to be more than a listener. You can also help us create our show so if you are a fan of horror pause this podcast right now and go. Subscribe to something scary on apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your shows hit. That subscribe button seat. Don't miss another episode. We'll come back to wild wild tech a show about the strange frankenstein's monster of technology and culture shambling through our lives. I'm josh rivera. And i'm doing erika weber. I am the frankenstein and joshua is the monster. Let me paint you a picture jordan. It's the early nineteen eighty s. we're in calgary alberta. It's cold because this is calgary and a man named wayne pearson. Is typing three letters online for the first time l. I think you're familiar with this. Wouldn't rate yes. It clearly means lots of love joshua. It's like it's laugh out loud right. Yeah i mean this one's everywhere right with a few exceptions like you just said like everyone gets it. It's an example of what we might call like. Internet speak which can be a phrase acronym or a word that was either born or popularized on the internet. Do you have any favorites. A oh laughing my ass off or ass for you over there what else. I never really liked raffle because it sounded too fluffy. Yeah funny funny thing about raffle ruffles. Actually fallen out of popularity. No one really use it anymore. Probably because they feel the same way you do so your your taste maker good. Everyone should listen to me more. I have a friend who just types wrecked r. e. t. all caps when someone gets there s handed to them but like only in a very minor inconsequential way. It feels a little stupid talking about this stuff right. But i also think it's fun i mean we're both riders and language is kind of easy to take for granted. It just sort of like works and you don't really appreciate for the thousands of miracles that it takes to make it work so talking to a link and we've got to here today just reminds you of how much magic there is and how we speak to one another. There are very obvious differences in the way we speak and like sometimes it's fun. Pack that but before we go any further we should because this is an english language podcast or naturally going to discuss english and because language is also culture. It's worth noting. A big part of how. The internet influence language comes from cultures borrowing from one another sometimes in ways that are not particularly great or well-considered. We're mostly focusing on the tech angle. Here as the cultural one is enough to fuel an entire podcast. Yeah much as. I would like to pitch that podcast. Personally you'd be better off going to listen to the allusion est within a by helen saltzman. She talks about this kind of thing. All the time and you know talks about the conflict between loving the english language and also knowing that it has committed atrocities so today. I'm going to introduce you to two of my favorite interviews so far. The first is someone who has around fifty years of experience in linguistics and comes from your side of the jordan. Well i'm david crystal academically. I'm honorary professor of linguistics at the university of banja. Here in north wales. Also really. I spend most of my time at home especially lockdown writing books about language in linguistics and the english language gender close aspects of the internet to. He's here to give us an understanding of how the internet has impacted our language and the ways. It has actually happened before but first he starts with something. That's a little bit surprising. For all the words we don't know and rapidly growing lexicon. The internet's impact on the english. Language is actually quite small. Not because there isn't a lot of change but because the english language is so vast. Let's just stay with english for the moment over the past twenty years. I'm sure the internet has added several thousand new words and phrases to the english language. But heck the english language has over a million words each many more than that nobody knows. How many so an extra few thousand isn't a big deal. As far as vocabulary is concerned and then grandma. Oh well as far as i can tell the grammatical constructions. We will using back in one thousand nine hundred ninety just before the win. Came in exactly the same as the grammatical constructions. You and i are using right now. According to professor crystal this has had a side effect. I'm sure you've seen before. Those who treat changes in the language as a sign of cultural decay. So i went to see a show by susie. Dent she does dictionary kona on a countdown. I don't know if any of this is meaningful to you countdown. british television program with word challenges and number challenges and she does the dictionary corner anyway. She did this show about language and she talked about how people are often very concerned about it. Changing her thing was the word. Mischievous people often pronounces mischievous because they think it rhymes with devious. But it's actually mischievous more people probably say mischievous that. It will probably just change the word that kind of thing. Yeah and this is one of the things that professor crystal talked about length. The languages nature change. It's not inherently good or bad. it's just change. It's not the the language is getting better getting worse because there are prophets of doom out. There is always prompt there who say oh all news on the internet text messaging and things like that eight days asta for the language. Well you know. I don't see that and the evidence doesn't point to any all language does is a changes in response to social developments technical developments. On what have you doesn't change for the better doesn't change for the worse. It just changes. So what has happened and this always happens when a new technology comes in. The technology extends the options in a language ads if you like to the expressive richness of the language. This is where things get interesting. You don't really notice this change unless you're living crystal notes that this has happened before many times. New technology usually means big changes in how we talk. So for instance when telephone. Communication came in hundred or so years ago a new type of auditory communication developing their quite quickly when broadcasting came in the nineteen twenties. Suddenly the new options. Before you know the sort of thing sports commentary and news broadcasts nobody'd have anything like that full. Is this a good thing or a bad thing. Well as for sociologists and of this to explore linguists it's simply a new array of options for communication and so the internet is done. The same thing you see before the internet came along there were no exchanges of the kind we now know from a mayland blogs and instant messaging and twitter youtube and all of that and each one of these new platforms has added a new set of possibilities communicative possibilities and with that goes new styles perhaps the best putting a new style of communication. So i now have far more styles available to me to communicate with you and i had twenty or thirty years ago. I like what professor crystal says about styles. One thing i like to think about is how. I was one of the last people in my friend group to get a smartphone. It was really something noticing. How smartphones completely changed. How my friends texted in a way. That wasn't necessarily fun for me. They would all of a sudden. Speak in like more fragments. Oh you mean like the one line at a time thing with relation yet. I i think i do that. Like i'm in that habit because i'm not i just i don't feel able to write an entire power of with full stops in it in a text. It just feels too formal to me and like the tone will upset people. And i get that on twitter as well like when i tweet like i won't do it individual tweet for each of a sentence but i will try and find a way of tweeting without using punctuation or like capital letters because it just feels too formal if i try and do that and like no one will. They'll think that. I'm trying too hard or something. Yeah yeah we're gonna get all this. Twitter is also a big one. If you're on twitter a bunch you might find yourself talking to other is on twitter. In a way that you wouldn't elsewhere and as it turns out twitter made some changes that influence that twitches a veteran example because twitter has changed its its strategy over the is twenty two thousand six and you'll remember that it's a prompt was what are you doing. And so people say what they were doing. You know i am. Itching called flakes or whatever it might be really important as and so it was all presidents and first person and then in november two thousand nine twitching changes it's crunch and it becomes bought happening so there was a sudden shift there towards a more neutral kind of language and i thought that was gonna stay because what's happening is still around but no i mean you know four or five years later. You get more developments on twitter. The hash tag comes along. An hashtag was devised very nice idea as classification tree device. You know so. If we're talking about hamlet than all tweets relating to can be gathered together into the same hashtag great idea. This is really funny. Because i don't think i ever use hashtags on twitter like i use them on instagram baking cookies. Whatever say the people are just interested in baking confinement but yeah i never use hashtags on twitter anymore. I don't use them. All hash tags are interesting to me. Because i've always thought it was weird. That's such a wonky. Tech oriented device became a thing that everyone knows about. It's just like very like software engineer solution to a problem and now like by parents know what hash tags are yet. It is a software engineer solution and it and it's a good one too like i've listened to entire pocus about the invention of the twitter hashtag and the problem that it solved and everything but i think the reason they count joan is just because they're snappy and people especially older people using them in a way they're not really intended like just using them to be like to kind of illustrate a mood that is going alongside the thing that tweeting. Yeah it's like it's like an underlying right in a in a way fascinating to think about because depending on where you stand the kind of corny to call attention to overuse but there also still vital and according to david. It's a huge shift in how he talked to each other online and then suddenly saying hashtag. Amazing you know hashtag cool or something like this and i was very intrigued by that because it was a new kind of use here. It doesn't just mean. I found this amazing. It means i found this amazing. And i think you will as well and so. It's kind of related to what you were saying. They kind of turned statements into open letters. Like i said. I don't really use them but the internet. I'm used who's is one where everything is kind of an open communication for anyone to see or responsive and as we've discussed many times on this podcast wonders that technology often come at a price and this is what makes twitter such a good example for a lot of what we're talking about. It's a great petri dish for how small changes in language ripple outward and also create case. Study in how everything can go wrong. Twitter is responsible for a lot of the ills of our modern world. And yet also you know a place that i rely on for my career so you know mixed feelings about our dependence on this one platform. Yup so let's take a step back then. A lot of why twitter is the way it is comes down to text messaging. It was built to accommodate the limitations of texting another medium which has reinvented longstanding norms like the humble period do use periods much so we don't call the punctuation mark. We don't call it a period. We call it a full stop. That is so much better. Yeah so the full stop as we call it here in the uk. I tend not to use in texts much in tweets. If i can help it in general. I just it just feels formal and kind of cold and try hard and conveys a tone that i don't want to convey most of the time. Yeah i don't. I don't use the full stop much these days and it turns out. This is another huge thing that has changed a lot. Thanks to technology. I mean what is the function of the period it has to functions on. It shows that a sentence has come to an end on the other two separate sentences when they're in a sequence well with short messaging of the kind of talking about You don't need to show the other person. The statement has come to an end because the screen does that for you. It's pretty obvious. And there's no need for period two separate sentences because people are not talking in sequences of sentences just talking sentence at the time short stuff. That's what the mediums all about people just instinctively deciding. Well it's the full stop is the period hasn't function anymore point using hec so they dropped it once. It is normal to have a full stop or period than if you put one in eight has to mean something and so you get. Contrasts like janis coming to the party tonight. So period simply means janis coming to the party tonight. But if you have janis coming to the party tonight period it means odia janis coming to or something like that kind of passive aggressive in some sort of way. This is the part that blows my mind that no one teaches us to do this. It's very counter to how we start learning a language very strictly with rules and grammar. I would disagree. I suppose it means you're talking about learning a second language or learning your own language for the first time. Because when babies learn to speak their primary language they don't learn in terms of rules and grammar they pick up on the way people around them using things and they infer meaning from context. Which is exactly what happens here with the way people speak on the internet. If you see everyone else tweeting with new capital letters no punctuation than you start doing it too and you kind of get a feel of what that means because you know what the people who are talking that way like And you get toned from kind of the context so yeah but i guess if you're learning a second language that yeah you do learn rules and grammar i to be honest probably isn't the best way to learn a language dog. God it's miserable. Yeah yeah. Like i'm finding I studied french for ten years. And yet i feel incapable of having a conversation with someone in french. Because i don't know conversational french. I know like school taught french. But like even when you know in this morning away that we learned like our first language is right. There is some stuff that you do have to learn when you're trying to get some more nuance ter- like descriptive expressions. Like on the internet. It would probably be a motive or to a lesser extent like emoji or certain abbreviations and interesting about a mod cons. And you know emoji in particular is that they were supposed to do some things than existing punctuation then. Things got complicated. Punctuation is is a pathetic substitute for a nation on the like which of course his motivated smileys and emoticons and emojis in the first place is a great positive buzz. When emoticons came along and smiley's because people thought oh that'll solve the problem all i've gotta do to show that i'm being happy or angry. Oh laura ironic as put in the appropriate humility con- you see and then everybody will know what we mean an ob any problem at all. The emoticons are just as ambiguous has tones of voice you have to look at the context to know the to interpret so it doesn't solve the problem really especially in a short messaging service. We haven't got time to amplify what you mean exactly has a potential for being misunderstood as it's ever happened to you where you make like a new acquaintance or a friend in the us an emoji in a way that you've never seen before or just emoji that you've never seen used and you're you're just at a loss and no sure if that has happened to me in particular i mean i'm sure it has but i can't think of a specific example but what i can think of is and talking about different emoji having different illustrations on different devices the one that's like bed teeth Us to me like six but some people think it's like a grinning smile. So like some friends that i have in other areas of my life. Maybe you don't use the internet as much as urban older. I'll be telling them something and they'll use like bed teeth emoji to me like oh that's great. It looks like so it's like a. Oh hey i really good news. I just got this gay good doing seven so an egg but actually they mean meanwhile done. I'm happy for you. I used to think it was like a big smile. And then i learned it doesn't mean yeah and it's very normal and quite possible to miss so much of like how these different emoji or are supposed to be used are widely used because so many conversations are happening at the same time. And you're not a part of all of them. You're not supposed to be which is very different from like the old school cultural influences on how we talk right which were more openly and widely shared experiences. This happens just faster. One of the things. I noticed in corona virus came along with how quickly people started to play with the words that were being introduced. You know like like lockdown things like this and inventing new words jocular words very often played with language neologisms of all kinds. If you're in scotland's you know be beyond a law down because there are loss in scotland that salt and sing beautiful. Inventions of unkind. Another some macos creek road. We opened the internet does is it spreads these novelties quicker than any previous stage linguistic history. This is where it means. Come from of course if you like a new expression and suddenly it's out there on twitter and everywhere else so the dictionary picks it up for you know where you are. It's getting sums up all over the place people starting to use it then eventually. Maybe it'll get into the standard dictionaries. So yes the internet has had that kind of effect especially amongst younger people because take awhile but it will happen yet right. being dad. the thing everyone's talking with the moment words that have no meaning except because if the me we all understand what it means and here's where it all comes together. We've been talking a lot about the internet and social media sites like twitter. But we haven't necessarily been talking about where we're experiencing these things are phones so when we get back is the biggest influence on your speech your smartphone. We want the best of both worlds. We want a hybrid a smarter hybrid cloud approach with. Ibm helps retailers. Manage supply chains with watson. Ai while predicting demands with ease the world is going hybrid with ibm visit. Ibm dot com slash hybrid cloud support for this podcast comes from progressive. What would you do with an extra eight hundred dollars by plane ticket paid on your student. Loan treat yourself to those shoes. 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One of the things gretchen spoke to us about was something we briefly discussed earlier in the show. Remember how we were talking about the way. People texted differently when they got smartphones. That's really important there an interesting sort of evolution there when tex mex because those phones you know kids might not realize treated texts emails. You'd go into your little inbox of texts. And be like oh. I have three new unread text messages. I'm going to click on this one. I'm going to click on this one. I'm going to click on this when they were all sort of atomic. And there's a lot of pressure and some people's phone plans charge them per text message was also heresy. So there's a lot of pressure to fit your entire message into one text into that one hundred forty characters and then there was a period when some people had smartphones and some people didn't and the smartphones treated text messages like check like instant messages where you sort of continuous conversation and that was a new paradigm for text message user interface which is of fun to realize that that changes. Yeah the the limit for text messages. I remember this. I read them costing ten pence each. Although i was very lucky i always had a contract. I never had the kind of pay-as-you-go mobile phone sim. But i guess. The length limit is why people started using texts. Speak like the letter r. Instead of the word a. r. e. and the letter you instead of the word. Why oh you etc. Yeah and it's very funny because this is like financial technical limitation that could just be completely thrown out of whack. If you have one chatty friend cleo have one probably a podcast host ono. we're both that friend someone else. What's particularly remarkable to me as how some of the stuff just lingers right even though the reason is long gone like we know that you can see that in how we tax now. There's no limits anymore. But also gretchen started talking about how some of the ways people make jokes internet today and how. It's likely an extension of the way people started talking to each other. What we called mud's that's mud. It's an acronym and wanna break that one down for our listeners jordan. She smelling real big. So mud were multi user. Dungeons is what it stands for. It came from just that was just one originally one multi user dungeon and then they kind of spawned off to make more that basically the predescessor to emma mos except they would text based. Yeah they were one of the earliest forms of what. We'd call online gaming today and as christians tells us people in them had developed fun new ways of talking to each other. It seems likely that mud's were probably the origin of the thing that people do online still. Which is this third person self narration. Because the whole point of mud's was that you were narrating yourself. Moving virtual space like they were a virtual dungeon. Or it'll be like this is like you have entered a living room on the left. Wall is a painting by picasso and a coach on the right wall or two large windows and potted fern or something like this and so they had this very like sort of text based video game style of there are spaces here and that was partly because we're trying to act out a story but it's retained a bit of a fossilized aspect of it in the fact that we just talk about ourselves in the third person sometimes in sort of narrating what our actions are and you can definitely trace it back to mud's i don't know if there's a probably earlier place where people are also doing third percents alteration but it has. It has some roots in months. Fisher right so the thing where people put their actions between asterisks like when people when when some drama is going down on twitter. Whatever and people will put like Sips tea or like grabs popcorn. And it's kind of like i did identify. It's still done between asterisks. Now people probably just leave those out because you understand from context but that was kind of how it was done back in the day with like online role playing. Yeah i think brackets are also used now online so one of the things. I want to ask gretchen tied together for us is just how much the way we spoke online. Hollywood we talk to one another out loud like we talked about earlier. I sometimes use internet lingo. Like ironically when i'm speaking but i can't really tell you how much i use reflexively in earnest. According to gretchen it comes down to the distinctions between written language and spoken language and also laziness one of the reasons why language changes is to become more efficient. We're trying to conserve energy. Are cave dwelling. Ancesters would have been really providence. They're trying to conserve energy. So it is the spoken domain. That efficiency often looks like running. Sounds together because you don't actually need to pronounce every single thing extremely precisely in order to be understood and so it's more efficient. If you can say things faster let certain sounds droplets. Certain sounds run into each other and you can get your message across. You've extended a tiny bit of effort. How do you make that more efficient and what you can do is you can delete recoverable information and you can take that. I do not know too. I don't know you can take it to. I dunno even or oh which is extremely efficiently. Look at least compression. Algorithm we've gotten from i do not know too And we've just saved so many calories and at this point something cool can happen right. Act can change and become words and so themselves like again to bring back. Ll say like a little mere cat just popping up because it takes energy than actually laughing sometimes sometimes if you know if someone is trying to be funny and i don't have the energy to actually find what they're saying entertaining. It's just like it's like a way of getting them to stop seca punctuating that joke. Oh yeah lull. Yeah and it turns out. That gretchen has a lot to say about as well. Because we've used it a lot of ways as you have demonstrated so in chapter three talk about lull and. Ll and how it's evolved and how nobody's really laughing when they say l. o. l. anymore and there's a story of a kid who like finds out that is supposed to stand for life got loud. He's like no no doesn't nobody's actually laughing like just means low. So yeah one of the things that i did was in that chapter. I talk about sort of generational splits and how some people still use it. Literally in some people use it kind of aspirational. Maybe i would be laughing. I'd like to think like you to think that. Maybe i'm laughing. But i'm not actually laughing because i'm trying to be polite. A supportive friend. Your joke was not that funny. Very nice of us really when we get back. We'll talk a little bit. More about generational gaps. That gretchen mentioned support for this podcast comes from. Wg you do. You wanna more skilled and effective workforce. Do you want to build loyalty and increase employee retention a partnership with western governors university. Could be exactly what you need over. Three hundred organizations nationwide already count on. Wgn for valuable education benefits that lead to better prepared and more capable workers with more than sixty accredited bachelor's and master's programs to choose from and shorter credential programs coming soon. Wg you has long been a leader and making quality higher education more accessible flexible online. Learning is the key. 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Take the free trial and continued support. Wild wild tech. And i going to not so humbly tell you to sign up so do it. Now when we left off gretchen was explaining to us how no one is laughing when we use l. o. l. anymore. How do you feel about that jordan. I understand completely. What gretchen is saying here. From the original the older older older generations like people who are maybe sixty seventy plus who think that it means lots of love because they just never absorbed the true meaning. Whatever to people. Who are i guess a decade or so older than us who still use it strictly to be representative of laughing out loud and will only use it when they are actually laughing out loud to yup younger people who don't know that supposed to mean anything else in it just means lol like my my younger brother i will definitely say lull out loud to mean a certain kind of semi sarcastic loving or kind of lazy not actually laughing say lots of different meanings no and also reminds me again Of my brother that i mentioned earlier he. He's making fun of me all the time for this stuff like last week literally. Last week he called my fiance called her to complain about how i never use emoji. It's funny with him because he doesn't actually like facetime you all the time. Even if he doesn't wanna look at your face like literally he'll facetime me and leaves fono table table. Kids this is also holiday. Technology is used as well as how we speak on it. but according to gretchen. How technology changes your language and use is also largely determined by the kind of life you lead in the ways that life intersex technology as we were talking about the reason. Just one internet writing. There isn't just one internet language. it's age bound bury age bound. And it's also influenced by like what your social platforms were you know. Did you start out and go right on like instagram and snapchat and tiktok or something. Have you been kicking around on irc and mud's and moves and even if you're similar age you have very different experiences of what the internet is like for you and and whatever subculture you find yourself in. There are going to be in jokes and things like that. I brought up one to gretchen. The phrase you love to see it has has that been big on british or you just aware of us. americans see. that's the thing right. There's no such thing as british twitter because like how. How would it be possible for me to only fully british people. I guess like the time of day. Before the americans get up. And i don't know if you love to see it is used as much there but i definitely see on my twitter anyway. It's really funny. I'm thinking about like the golden few hours that have no americans or a weak on this point. Tweeting anything he's going to see. It's just people complaining about a government like the latest bad decisions. They've made and these are sort of like he's like end jokes and are kind of like the building blocks of what we call memes right which is sort of like short digestible jokes in ideas that can be repeated to you know. Have an idea express. Their culture and gretchen talks to us a little bit about this. One of the ways that i think is helpful sort of contextualized. Memes is to think of them as in jokes but rendered in a more permanent or semipermanent or sharable for them because a lot of in jokes exist in particular family or a particular group of friends or community or profession And they sort of existed this sort of oral literature level. Where like sometimes you join a group of friends and they've all been friends with each other since they were like sixteen And you're like okay high and so it was like. Oh yeah you just mike and like oh you mike who's mike. And why have i just done one and they all know this because sometime like ten years ago someone mike did something. Whoever mike is and they've got this sort of shared cultural knowledge. Memes refer to the specifically internet incarnation. But if we look at it as sort of a cultural item or cultural unit or cultural catchphrase and in joke a reference to things. It has a whole precedent. Like one takes your playing particular. Love's labour's lost which is not performed very much these days because it's kind of weird and the reason it's kind of weird is easiest chock full of shakespearean era in jokes. The people at the time and thought were hilarious and we don't even know what some of the original jokes were because we have. We've lost joke. We've only maintain this like weird line. Loves lawsuit like i guess. This must have been joked. Because i don't understand it yeah. This kind of thing is when i realized that i would never be able to pursue english literature because it was. I think it was elliott's the wasteland and my teacher basically just being like every line in this is a reference to some other literary were co artwork. That was popular at the time. And you have to understand the context of those to understand the poem. And i was like well. That sounds like a big waste of time. I'd rather do anything else. Yeah and that makes. That's also something. Wanna call back to that. She also said which is sort of like all about conserving energy and how we communicate and understand each other. Because i feel that right. I mean we're lazy. i'm lazy and laziness is also a word that we're using out of out of cheek a bit right like it's quite literally what we are but as both david earlier crushing now note there are a lot of naysayers who use the term a little more earnestly and point to it as a sign of moral or cultural decay. Yeah i've definitely heard that with things like text right like people of an older generation fading outrage because supposedly younger people can't even be bothered to learn how to spell the word. Why are you that just using the letter. You and you know what's going to happen to us society if no one bothers to learn how to spell probably will be fine but again like it's hard for anybody to have this perspective because like david crystal said in the first half we're experiencing such a small blip in the history of our language right. It's impossible to know what changes are lasting in. What's just slang and as we were talking about slang has similarly skuld econo- -tations well slimy is changing language. Sometimes we use changing the language as a way to sort of get around. Some of the negative connotations at the word slang has like linguistics line is great linguistic language changes great. There's no problem there. The problem comes with people kind of being old and crushing being right. Get off my lawn. Both christian and david call these folks. Doomsayers and gretchen. Explains it's really funny because you could look back and you can find doomsayers about all sorts of different technology. Mark twain has the screed against the telephone where you find it incredibly annoying. He was also one of the first people who get a telephone in the us. So i don't know he had been policy there but he found it disturbing to hear only half of a conversation. He really hated. There are people who had rants about like the automobile and how unnatural travel at speeds like sixty miles. An hour and like your organs. We're going gonna shift. There are complaints about the telegraph and like enabling young people to like talk to each other without chaperone edge. Their complaints about the printing. Press complaints about the you mentioned a writing itself because like back in the day In an oral culture people memorized a lot of stuff and they trained their memory to be able to memorize ancient poems and literature and had all these memorization techniques and Socrates is quoted by plato as saying that the invention of writing would introduce forgetfulness into men souls because they wouldn't know how to like memorize things properly anymore and possibly this is why like plato wrote things down but socrates didn't because played it was like i gotta write this dad. There are lots of ways of being anxious about technology and there are there are real effects of technology. You know like climate change is real and it's a problem guys. Language changing is not a problem. I love talking to both gretchen and david a lot. They were very fun and generous interviews. Is this something that you have to remind yourself to be conscious of right to be sort of like very sanguine about like changes in language that you're not familiar with or slang mitch. Not aware of like. I mentioned up top and i never really defined it. What is poke as me. So basically it's the name of a twitter bat is just pepe. The frog making like a surprised expression paper the frogs very loaded. Image right now Politically in the united states. Unfortunately and and strangely because it's so odd but the frog is making the surprise expression that comes from another him out one of the earliest called pod champ were a streamer is making the same surprise expression and funny thing pug trump does not exist switch anymore as of like yesterday when we're recording this because the streamer that amount is based on kind of a virulent conspiracy theorist who no one wants to associate with anymore so a problematic image of a problematic person. Yes which then was cartoon with a problematic cartoon but yeah it helps when you know where things come from definitely worth doing your research. One thing i've learned from. Cc dent Who does dictionary corner on. Countdown here in the uk is that it can be very difficult to trace the origins of certain words that are from you know decades and centuries ago but one good thing about the internet slang is that as you've just demonstrated you can literally kind of comb back over the archived examples of things to find the original use of the word an detailed story of how it came to be which is really interesting. It's also possible to not trace phrases back far enough and to use them sort of like insensitively or just In an offensive way every part of language like everything else that you can cross online comes from somewhere and usually it's best to understand that in history as best as he possibly can before he would adopt anything yourself. Yeah there's definitely a lot of slang that comes from places that you might not realize that are actually really offensive. It's good to know about that kind of stuff. Like i'm not saying you have to go and look up the word in vocabulary and the dictionary to check that it's okay because let's face it. If you speak english probably not but yeah go and check out. Check out the allergist by helen saltzman. She talks about this kind of thing. A lot and with slang especially especially i guess new ish like maybe do a little bit of background research before you start throwing that word around everywhere. Do you find yourself. Adopting a different sort of like posture. When you talk online. Because like because i will probably speak in a way like now with my friends in person that i wouldn't necessarily speak online. It's not that. I'm like throwing slurs around or anything like that. It's it's more like you know. I have like idioms that i use that. You know some of which. I'm legitimately trying to to not use anymore like crazy. Where just sort of like. That's their people advocating for that word to be sort of like filtered out because it's it's able word that's probably a poor example because like i guess the the hope is eventually i'll just stop saying that word but like i'm sure there are ones that are like less offensive but like maybe our regional in ways that don't travel you know. Yeah so. I don't know about using words that i am trying not to use offline versus online. I definitely feel like. I have an online voice that i don't use what i speak with my friends. Like the way. I tweet is probably not the way i talk but i have been making a conscious effort to not use the word crazy like outrageous or whatever dino what word i used instead of crazy it's usually a wild wild and that's how the podcast and that's how this episode end up be like it's wild next time on wild tech. We'll talk about sex pots. Wild wild tech is stood here seventy-one original podcast and a spoke media production. It's hosted by me. Josh rivera and jordan erika weber. You can find at jam. Rivera zero two on twitter and at jordan weather dot com. Our producers cody markle and kastner with help from as mendoza and trade jones. This episode was mixed by will short are executive producers steven perlstein arecelor for studio seventy one and letaba colin and keith reynolds spoke media special. Thanks to our guest. David crystal and gretchen nikolic. If you wanna follow us on social media or at wild wild tech pod. Thanks for listening. He's welsh welsh care very.
Who should lead Labour?
"Today we take you to Manchester whether three Labor leadership candidates join me at Guardian Hustings and life inside a refugee run nightclub in Naples Dame. We should stop doing them in the style of each alleged to shake things up. Let's see you'll came impression? Was another future is possible here becky after shout Green Industrial Revolution. And if you get me you have to shout. We win together. That's Labor leadership candidates. Lisa Nandy kissed arm. I'm Rebecca Long Bailey. In a Green Room at the exchange auditorium in Manchester decided. When this is over we're going to go for drink and have one drink every host things. We've done which is going to have a big knife. They've been traveling up and down the country for weeks. They're now ready to face. An audience of eight hundred for the latest leadership debate organized by the Guardian and hosted by May. We're just left with all the leadership candidates and we're heading out to a stage which they have been on before in many many many labor hustings from the Guardian I'm initiative Kristalina today InFocus choosing. Labor's next leader good evening and welcome to tonight's guardian. Live event for those of you that do twitter. We'd love to hear from you jury in this quite large auditorium seats. Eight hundred people. Peter Walker is the guardians political correspondent as a big stage with lectures up at the Front Bright Pink backdrop with a garage and give a very warm welcome to tonight's guest. Here's Tom comes up. I believe the front runner. He's definitely the book is favorite to win. You've got Lisa Nandy. She's an outsider that she's seen as being quite well in the rates. And then you have Rebecca Long Bailey. She is kind of seen as a choice of the Corbin wing of the party. She's doing reasonably well but she would have expected to be doing better. Where are we in the race? We are still some distance away from doing the result. That doesn't come until April fourth but this week is when the Labor members actually cast their ballots is when they first get them in the post show of hands. If you think you know who you would like to be laid and history tells us. A lot of people tend to cost postmortem Devia favor. Keep your hands up. Keep your hands up if the Oh this could yet change your mind. There's a lot to play for. He feels like this leadership race. Hasn't been cutting through as much as you might expect. That's why I said at the beginning. You've all been very nice to each other. You don't really want to land A. If I were cynical I would say. They're all shoring up that picture positions in each other's shadow cabinets whether things they said in their opening statements that told us what's most important to each of them. Yeah I mean divisions are notably different and basically the summaries they sum up what kind of appeal to Labor members is we need. The mope around take lumps vowed each other head in hand. Arguing about his it was kissed on is is very much. We have to unite. It's a party. Stop the factional infighting. That's his main message or we pull together will unite. We rebuild Becky Long. Bailey is basically saying don't ditch all the policies under the CARBONARA. She wants to keep a lot of the stuff. There's an manifesto in two thousand nine hundred and we won't win again and unite and inspire our movement if we slowly abandon these building blocks of a Socialist Societe listen and is basically. The one is the most stock message. This was no ordinary election. The entire Labor base collapsed beneath our feet when we had nurses an ex miners turning not just away from us but to the Tories who says that maybe needs to really really rethink itself apart. He's going to die. We got this wrong again. We won't just be out of power for another ten years. In ten years time there will be no Labor Party to vote for. I think quite an interesting moment to me was when I asked what their biggest political regret walls and straightaway Becky Long Bailey. Said Brace Yourself. One of my biggest regrets. I think was the way we handled brexit and then turn the subject to Brexit is quite interesting. Probably the feistiest moment of the night was when Becky Long Bailey. Lisa Nandy both attacked kissed. I'm not in a direct way. But the fact that he was a shadow brexit secretary and shape Labor's brexit policy. There are both very very critical of it. Becky Long Bailey was saying it was basically the number one problem and without that Labor won the election. Talk so many other things down with it so in the election when we should have been talking about jobs aspiration industry what the future would look like we were. We were talking about Brexit in trying to justify our position which was confusing anyway. Lisa Nandy cool too. The straw that broke the camel's back. We had half the shadow cabinet over here arguing for remain and saying there were picking aside and they're picking remain. We had another half of the shadow cabinet over there saying they were picking leave and they were arguing for leave between them. They managed to insult the entirety of this country where remain is caricatured as liberal elites and leave this character toward a stupid racist kissed kind of defend himself quite vigorous way he was saying that he taught constituency after constituency and there was complete uniformity across the country it was number one. The leadership fairly or unfairly rightly or wrongly. Anybody was in that campaign knows that was the number one thing that came up. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying let's be honest about it. The second thing was Brexit. Of course and an you know he was he was he was quite tough. He's basically saying that if people think he was just brexit and if they change brexit or everything's GonNa be fine than Labor's GonNa lose the next election to the first thing that came up with this is not me. This is the team supporting tomato. Myron experience was the manifesto overload now whether what was in the manifesto was right or wrong was too much. There was a tipping point and it didn't matter whether it's good or bad because people didn't believe we could deliver it although it's interesting. How many times during the night? Both Lisa I'm becky reference. The many men who were always making decisions. I think one of the men that they may have been talking about even if they're being lovely and plays among Islam on the Latin at the left and it is and Tom. This is an issue that Labor have never had a permanent female leader. And we've even had some allies of Becky Long Bailey. Saying he should stand down and let a woman win. I don't think is going to be an insurmountable problem for him. But the optics brilliant. I think he says doesn't either. It's not just going to be me. It's going to be my team so I expect a very female heavy shadow cabinet. Should he win? But with a man at the top of mount at the top of the triangle okay so brexit is clearly an area in which there are different ideas but another is about how to heal division within the Labour party and what role leadership plays in that and that came up next. When I asked Becky Long Bailey about Corbin I mean. It's interesting that the front runner for the deputy leadership role your friend and someone who you've said you kind of almost running partners. Angelina has suggested that Jeremy. Corbyn did not command respect in the Labor Party. Do you agree. How does she coat without? She kind of intimated the way people interpreted rain. His comments were slightly wrong Very well and suspect what she was referring to was a lack of unity within the party which has been rife unfortunately for over four years because divided parties. Don't win general elections and Becky Long. Bailey was right to say that there had been massive division within Labor. And that's why I thought it was important to actually put to Lisa Nandy whether she regretted the fact that she had been at the heart of an attempt to outscore Ben in two thousand and sixteen. It could have been quite difficult moment for her and I initially was but I think she answered that quite well and ended up getting around to applause from the room. She explained the reasons why she stepped down from the shadow cabinet. Every difficult week I went out about the party and at the end of that week. See Jeremy Corbyn to try and sort it out and I was told by very senior member of the shadow cabinet. That was going to be no attempt to sort out that we're going to prosecute this factional war until one sided one. I'm not prepared to stand for that. Our stunt for factionalism on the back benches or on the on the front bench either and the reason that I won't is because it fundamentally staff the people that we seek to represent an that wasn't the only kind of clash between Lisa Rebecca but division. I mean there was a point later on where we talked about. One of Becky's policies that is perhaps most controversial for open selections which will allow anyone to challenge a sitting in pay and then if the MP's a great and pay they'll have thought could relationship with their members and there will be rewarded and they'll be picked. What if we brought great talent available in a constituency that needs encouragement? The next Alexandria Katya Cortez for example. That's all key to winning the next general election we would that would allow them to rise up through the Party and be recognized. Why are people so concerned about now? This was a very very big thing during the Corbin era because it was seen as a way for local Labour party's which have had an influx of new largely proteome equipping members to try and unseat the sitting labour. Mp WHO's not kind of so in tune with them and ahead of the election quite a few kind of brutal fights. You agree with that. Lisa and Noah don't because the MP's I'd like to get rid of a Tory ones not labor ones and the truth is that we spent months going through this new selection process. We've always had a process where members contribute their MP and that's right absolutely right but what it produced was women and ethnic minorities were disproportionately targeted. If we had an Alexandra okay. Zia Cortez in the Labor Party. It would be a a not the older white male and peace with targeted. That's the lesson of the last few months. They all talk about party unity but I guess kissed Armas team. We'll hope that disagreements like the one we just heard will help him. Seem like the most unifying candidate. I just WanNa talk about him. Because he's clearly presenting himself as Mister Nice Guy. He doesn't want to have a go at the others on stage but I did think there was a moment on the night where we saw a different side of him at my expense when I asked him about his answer to. Lbc's Nick Ferrari a whether it's true that the most exciting thing you've ever done is take your kids to the football now. These questions are somehow supposed to be a measure of us there so pathetic. It wasn't my question no no. He caught annoyed with you. Then didn't I think you've got some of Nicaragua's light flak but with this. He got kind of slightly emotional. He's basically saying look. It's been an incredibly difficult time for him. Just just let me because in the last four weeks. My Wife's Mama's died we've been in intensive care with her before she died for seventeen days and I've been trying to be the husband. I compete my wife on the best that I can be to buy grieving children and then asked what's the most exciting thing you've done and I'm just that I know who I am. I know why start is quite a risky strategy to do this kind of moral outrage but it got crowded inside so I was wondering how to come back to that point on stage and I decided to ask him a question that I really wanted to put to him and not to the others. I mean you mentioned your kids and I'm just really interested in this and I kind of want to ask this because I feel like you probably get this question. The least. This is a big job. How you going to balance it with your family life. It's really difficult. It's really really difficult and my experience was coming in as an MP. Everybody wants you to do something every night of the week and you feel important and you put your dire and it's the wrong thing to do so one of the things that I've done so far is to say I will always be in on a Friday night with our family in our house. Natalie was quite interesting in response. He was really interesting on that. And that question very much one. The crowd back on your side by this part of the evening we were starting to get a sense. How different they are as candidates against the next step was to find out. What would they be like as a leader so I asked them to kind of throw their minds forward to April before after they've done another three hundred hurricanes or something and imagine that they've just been named leader of the Labour Party? What can we each of them to do straight away off. Raven named very very robust response. Labor's antisemitism crisis is one of the first things they need to do. We've got to put in place an independent complaints process as quickly as possible. And that's not just Semitism. That's for all forms of discrimination. I Think County Semitism was a major problem for us because we lost our moral compass and we lost our right to hold the to account about the huge failures over Islamaphobia. And I would say I want to know what's going on with this case. I want them on my desk every Friday. Because I know from running a big organization if you line of sight or something things change and I personally want to rebuild that relationship with Jewish communities and it is going to be big issue. 'cause res me soon the equality and Human Rights Commission's report in the way Labor's dealt with this is going to land on their desk and it's GonNa be fairly critical. What else did becky say? One of the things she said. Labor had to get immediately ready for which is a perfect point is going to be local cups elections in. May and in response to the many games that always made in two thousand nineteen election because conservatives are parked their tanks on all's. We know that in the seats that they've won from US. They've already started to heavily resource those areas. And we're going to have a fight on our hands to rebuild trust with our communities. What about Lisa? Lisa very much went on about this kind of localism agenda that she's got she wants to devolve some power down to many local constituency labour parties. She was talking about trying to get local people decide. How kind of certain national systems like universal credit work in local areas? Obviously as a position lead. You can't do that but she's saying she'd wants to present the findings to Voice Johnson. Say He's a better way of doing it and she said she would move labor. Hq because we cannot claim that stands for the whole of this country. If we continue to make decisions behind the dust by small town in central I would you move? It won't do Warrington Warrington which hopefully made a lot of people working Lebron? Hq in London Prick overall really again. It went really well. I tried to get care to suggest that he would do the same but it wasn't committing to that one put. What did he have to say about day? One ks response was a bit more vague but going back to this unity theme that he's going he said he'd want to set a unified tone from the very very top and he made the point he'd want to immediately start to kind of tackle take on boys. Johnson perhaps a bit more than the current leadership has been doing. Boris Johnson doesn't some public cloud is a really dangerous man. We need to take him on in parliament and across the country of be seem to be doing that as a very very effective opposition. One of the things that can have to do is take on. Boris Johnson at prime minister's questions in parliament. Every week. Which you report on. How do you think they'll do any of them is going to be this very very intimidating atmosphere because they'll be working to chamber which we packed with many many moratorium peas and they'll be very loud to be trying to intimidate the new Labour leader? Well he's not known for his forensic relationship with detail. Let's say so. I think it's a good start. Machiavelli's answer to that question is quite interesting. I also don't think he'd be able to cope with a ball. She northern woman who says things as they actually are in interviews eastern of the past. Sometimes it's just a personal Boston's doesn't like being interviewed by kind women who are reasonably strong minded towards him cyclope tricky. I mean they've all got their kind of strengths in this. I think would be very very good too. And she'd have a similar kind of style possibly to Becky that she's quite straight talking. She's a northern woman should be very very different to Boris. Johnson kissed his team believe that whilst he will be another white middle aged man facing off against a white middle-aged man his big difference. Is that Boris Johnson. Famously bad on the kind of detail he's going to be facing someone who was he can at times be slightly boring spooky say his grasp of detail is very. He's accusees one of the most talented. Pc's of his generation. And I think Boris Johnson might in a way find that quite tricky to face someone who just is prepared himself. Well in those brief one thing they seem to agree on was the one challenge facing us. Johnson is finding away to communique that can take on those powerful slogans. He's had like take back control. Get brexit done brought to recognize that historically and this goes back over the last forty years. We've never explained ourselves in a way that appeals to many of our voters. We've not spoken about their aspirations. And it was pretty clear on the night that this agreement on policy areas for example in favor of a more liberal immigration policy. But the question is how to sell it and when people rejected free movement. It wasn't a rejection of the nurses who can work our hospital if people in Wigan warm and welcoming decent intolerant as anybody else where the people who set the support for new arrivals project where the people in from the far right out of town but what. They were angry about with the sentiment that we were celebrating. This is coming to work in the hospital. Same time as the Tories had got rid of the education maintenance allowance on the nursing bursary and their children couldn't work in that hospital and then becky and cared passionately about the green new deal. It would've tackled the big issue of our time but it would have turned into an economic opportunity. I didn't detect in the last general election. The people wanted things to stay the same. A genuinely think people wanted change and an audience member Lisa whether she supported the policy kind of to and FRO ING. Who's the architect of the green new deal? Because this is something that was Becky Bailey's kind of Policiere in the twenty thousand nine elections. So she's very keen to have her thing but listen that he was saying that when she was in the shadow cabinet she came up with a I kind of version of this but she again says it should be about kind of selling it to people. She saying what we really mean is cleaner more reliable better bosses in Bassetlaw and home insulation in Warrenton that cuts energy bills for families and clean energy jobs in grim space. That the people of Grimsby Comparis- through the next generation just like they're powerless through the last stocks. The positive transformational agenda. That will win in Burton. And we've got to go out and make the case I'm win so it shouldn't be presenting people's this is this revolution that's going to change and apathy. You'll just make your life cheaper and better. They also talked about the housing crisis and motivation. And then I turn into another area. That isn't always an easy. Sow on the doorstep. Perhaps but was certainly an easy. Sell a a guardian live. Event was the mention of electoral reform. What have you support P. R. Reload Electoral Reform? The we love electoral reform. And it's really important for the Labor Party to consider it. It's always resisted it in the past because it hasn't been in its interests. Could we expect any of these guys to bring in? Proportional voting system kissed on was the first one to be asked about that. I very open to the idea that we change our voting system because I think for millions of people particularly safe seats. They vote doesn't count. I certainly listen to his answer. Thinking he backed. Pr Rhetoric. Deepak. He just said. He wanted to change electoral system. So it's not quite clear what that was and Lisa aunties being very very appropriate underpass Caroline Lucas from the Greens about working with other parties. So I mean I think this is very much debate. That's going to wait for the new leader but it will come good evening everyone. My name is Gary Lloyd Lee. Clp some very very grateful for the references that have been made in your observations are absolutely spot on towards the end of an I an audience member from constituency of lay in the northwest which had been labor since nineteen twenty two until December said Labor. Lost the general election in December by a landslide. But did we win the argument? Nick Jeremy Corbyn two days after the election suggesting that losing the election didn't mean losing the arguments kissed Hamas response to that was really very very strong when you lose. There's a cost to losing an election on his paid by the millions of people who needed change and therefore we can't pretend there was any good that came out of that General Election. So that's the problem in the north and in the Midland's there's another issue isn't there and Scotland and if you can win back people in Scotland those labor ever have a chance of building majority again so we don't if we don't win back Scotland them. We're not going to be a National Party of Government. That's really play. I only have time to put that one. Which was Lisa Nandy but she clearly for it was a big problem so ex labour voters who turned Tory. They felt that they'd had to vote. Tory in order to defend the United Kingdom because they felt that Labor hadn't stood up loudly and clearly enough especially in Westminster in defense of the United Kingdom and her prescription for is to make labour much more strongly. Pro Union Party again. This is not going to run and run. I mean just how may after this event but also from what you've seen in this contest. What have we learned about walk type of Labor leader? Each of them would be the first thing to point out is however polite and Nice. They are to each other at these events. Behind the scenes they're teams and allies are kind of pre against each other just as brutal in many ways is any other. Let's go fight going in. No Particular Order Kiss Tom. I think we've always known would be a kind of safe choice and his mantra is very much unity unity. Unity Make Labor electable presentable. Like a kind of serious party. I think we saw at the event. You can also be a bit more human than maybe sometimes build Listen and is. Mantra is very much about making labor much more localized but also just having to fundamentally rethink the Party and US twenty. Nine hundred is the starting point to kind of rebuild it. She seemed to again do quite well. She's she's she's performed reasonably well in these events so far and the crowd seemed to like love what she said Becky. Lynn Valley is to an extent slightly cursed by the fact that she's seen as a continuity corbin candidate and that's brought a lot of support from within the party but this may be given a slightly less explicit but I think we have seen over the course of race start to open up a bit. There was some criticism that you know during the general election. She was very very much on message. Let go but some of her answers at the event what she really couldn't quite personal he was. He was a kind of new side to her. And can I ask you just one last question? They're trying to win over Labor members right now and I pointed out to them at one point. During the evening that Labor members data shows are significantly more socially liberal and actually more left wing economically than the country as a whole even then Labour voters. Will we expect them to change their message when they win this contest? Change your approach. May I think that's why they're all trying to keep their specific messages and promises very very vague because they don't become tied to anything in particular. This is going to be very very difficult one because the races are completely different things. Winning over Labor members takes a certain kind of skill set and I guess as we saw in the last election. In with Jeremy Corbyn he was enormously popular with Labor members and still is but that wasn't enough to win over the country and this is going to be the big challenge and I think if kissed winds and I think you know the polls are certainly pointing towards. I think it could be because Labor members are almost trying to second guess. Alita they think might go down well with that you know friends and neighbors were not Labor members. They might be right. They might be wrong times going to tell we are. We are at the time but before we go hands off. Anyone who's been persuaded quite a few people that have changed their minds tonight. Peter Thank you very much thank you. That was Peter Walker the guardians political correspondent. He and the whole Westminster Team are following this race. Do Re best up on the website including our sketch writer John. Crises take on the night of the hustings. I'd also like to thank you for comments and reviews relating to today and focus. Do keep them coming. Especially if you also fancy giving us a five star review coming up inside a nightclub in Naples run by refugees Too often in science podcasts. We hear voices not the people who might be affected by new discoveries that those who made them were if we flipped on its head scope an extra crime zone and I would absolutely do that and it's not change her. It's changed the extra crimes and hosts her back with our common threads podcast. We traveled around the country to hear people's questions hopes and fears when it comes to something gene editing. I'd say that he's very happy in. He skinned the only person suffered because of him is me to have a listen. Just search common threads on your podcast APP now. Young Cuba Fatty was a second year by a chemistry student in the Gambia when he had to flee the country after protesting for the restoration of student grants after a long journey through the desert as a prisoner under slave in Libya and across the Mediterranean Sea. Young Cuba found himself in Naples where he hoped to build a new life instead he ended up in limbo. Asylum-seekers must wait for years in the hope of acquiring refugee status and their official papers during this time they are unable to work and regularly face brutal racism. A New Guardian documentary teranga named after a refugee Ron nightclub explores Naples through the eyes of young Cuba and other asylum-seekers right in the heart with Naples. You get into this cloud down the stairs pases. Lovely Africa lady was going to take your jacket and then you walk right in t- to save space. You help black people over there. You've got jumping lights different colors. You have this lady. Sahlin beverages alcohol induced than African play and everybody gets up and everybody starts dancing. Everybody gets into the mall. Would everybody allows divide floor through them? That's basically Teranga view. It's an amazing space to feel alive in Pielach. You loved and feel like your home away from home. His haven't waiting enables paper. This is just crazy. You feel like you useless. You feel like you can do anything you didn't have to go to school. I I find myself now able to do it. Assemblies of things like go to certain public spaces like the jam the park for example. All the. Because I don't have papers but because of the intense blatant racism that phase us as a black person also as an immigrant in Italy to get the permit on average people waited for like five years. Someone like me who's got dreams of going to university company in the university and having my bachelors in three. I'm probably having my master's in an additional two years. If you tell me that five years is what it needs to take to get my document. That's a huge disappointment to me. Migrants have hopes they've got dreams. They left their countries not because they wanted to but because they are forced to either be politically like in my case or economically. Enough people do not understand this. Mama you get into Toronto for. You didn't always black people you didn't always see migrant you have citizens also. Italians they get there. They see what magazine Tar basically like they see of migrants on TV and media as migrants drugs and migrants of killed so and so people Maghera diseases and start flag. Purvey our music playing. If they have dreams they wanna feel alive like you. Do the humans like you did dancing to music like you. The only thing that you have different Israeli citizen and citizen but the moment you had taken a look into the laps of migrants has power to do. That has asked that was young. Cuba fatty do check out the fantastic teranga film on the website. The music was by DASA gang a Naples Group of refugees from the Gambia happily. Since the making of the film young Cuba has now received an offer to study criminology. And Italian at the University of Banja. The filmmakers have set up a fund to help him to get their TERANGA. The documentary dot Com. That's it for this week. My thanks to a walker and young Cuba fatty this episode was produced by Elizabeth Casson. And Courtney user sound design was by Axel Kukuchi. The executive producers are Phil may not and Nicole Jackson have a lovely weekend. And we'll be back on Monday on the next one.