1 Episode results for "Two Hundred Million Kelvin"

Prof. Philip Mauskopf, Prof of Physics at Arizona State University

Scientific Sense

1:11:42 hr | 6 months ago

Prof. Philip Mauskopf, Prof of Physics at Arizona State University

"Welcome to the site of accents. Podcast where we explore emerging ideas from signs policy economics and technology. My name is gill. Eappen we talk with woods leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation be color a wide variety of domains. Rare new discoveries are made and new technologies are developed on a daily basis the most interested in how new ideas affect society and help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation v seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations. Bit researchers leaders. Who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot com and displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics guests at other ideas please send up to info at scientific sense dot com and i can be reached at gil at eappen dot info. Mike duties purposive. Philip mouse calls who has joined appointment at arizona state university in the school of earth and space exploration and the department of physics his back now distant primarily experimental cosmology in particular deciding a good thing new types of instruments for measuring signals from the most distant objects in the numbers buckle phil. Thank you nice to be here. Thanks doing this. I want to start with. What if your people from twenty eighteen Billy bates grave. Polite to using kinetic inductions detectors for told tech. I don't know if that's pronounce that day. And beyond so before we get the details of this. What exactly is protected. Call that day. Yes sure yeah. Toll tech is. It's the name it's named after a you know a group of the native group of in mexico and it's named that because The the the what it is is it's a camera at millimeter wavelengths that we have been building for a telescope in mexico which is called the large millimeter wave telescope or l. m. t. or in in mexico. It's the grand telescope Metric or cake day at and It's it's it's the mexico has actually a really strong background. Historically in astronomy like from the Early civilization and this telescope project which was started a decade ago. Maybe actually more. Like twenty years ago was still i think. The largest scientific project in mexico was building the telescope which is a fifty meter diameter telescope on top of sierra negra which is fifteen thousand foot mountain in the middle of mexico and so totake is is a camera that we're building using the latest superconducting technology or to go onto that telescope and make measurements location-wise Obviously will get into people but Mexico because it's a near the topics evident It has elation so what what is of the primary capital states Authentication yeah well. The primary characteristics are Allocation you know for a astronomy. And i know you've had other people on who also work as i do with telescopes and other places like chile or hawaii so so basically what you want. Is you want to be as you know. As high as possible to be above the atmospheric water vapor and that's the main The main component of the atmosphere that That absorbs millimeter. Wave light so So mexico it turns out has a fairly high mountains including pico. Or it's about or. I think it's called seat loyalty pedal which is right next to serra negra mountain which and that. One is the tallest mountain in central america. It's a nineteen thousand feet or so almost and so the mountain that it's on fifteen thousand feet. So that's that's what you want. Also it's it's a good latitude so it's nineteen degrees north latitude. Which is the same pretty much the same latitude as hawaiian. It gives you good access to most of the sky. So if you're too far north you can only see the northern stars two thousand southern stars so Good good position to and The millimeter size Vive linked what this target. What what sort of the primary target. Yeah so there's there's a couple but millimeter wavelengths so it's long a thousand times longer wavelength than the light that you see with your eye the optical which is just short just smaller than a micron wavelength and and so what we're looking at is Light from either from the early universe leftover from from from the early universe which has peaks at wavelengths around one millimetre. So that's one of the things we can look at and then the other main sources of emission or might at millimeter wavelengths are on gas and dust in the universe mainly in galaxies our own galaxy. So where where. There's a lot of gas and dust is also where you have a lot of stars forming. So we're looking at star formation in our galaxy and then also in other galaxies you can look at the gas and dust with farther away. So you don't get quite the same resolution and detail that you can see in our own galaxy but but still you can measure of overall things like star formation rates. And then you can do that out to you know for for galaxies at a whole range of distances and and trace the evolution of star formation in the universe speeding sort of half a billion or so years from the from the big bangla. So what's what's the range we're looking at so you mean like For for the dust and the galaxy the automated tennis club could target lights from the early universe. So oh right yeah so the the cosmic microwave background in the light from the early universe. I was talking about which is also what other telescopes in chile like the atacama cosmology telescope or south pole south pole telescope at the south pole. Look at the cosmic. Microwave background is actually light. That comes from well. It comes to us from almost you know the very beginning of the universe. The last time This light actually scattered or interacted with other manner before it hits. Our telescope was We chart time. We talk in terms of redshift. Which is how much the universe has expanded since the light last interacted. So it's redshift about eleven hundred one thousand one hundred for example some of the most distant galaxies that we observe are at a redshift of sort of six maybe eight maybe ten sort of the most distant so it's a one hundred times. The universe is expanded one hundred times more since that light was was last sort of scattered than than any light from any Gravitationally collapsed object like galaxy. But but actually the light and that corresponds to a time about four hundred thousand years after sort of what we call the big bang. Which is you know as far back as you can go so thirteen point. Seven billion years and but that light was around from the very beginning because the cosmic microwave background light mostly comes from its left over from the The annihilation of all of the matter. Antimatter when that happened in the early universe all turned into photons. And that's the light that we see Yes so it has been kind of moving around that long at at unfolding thousand years It became clear and they could get out right so the detector on the toll tech The kyw netted stick detector. Talk a bit about the technology. Sure yeah so. This is actually something that i really enjoy it. And spend a lot of time working on the development of a technology for strana me and other things and so this is a an often. We're doing this using superconductors because This superconducting devices can give you the best sensitivity And the lowest noise so this is a superconducting detector that that works by a. It's very very simple. And in a way. It's kind of something that i invented with grad student. A type of superconducting canetti conducts detector called lumped element. Connecticut sectors. Back in two thousand five. I think it was based on an idea from caltech that was Published in nature paper in round two thousand two and the idea is that a superconducting film. So if you if you deposit a thin film of of superconducting metal and then cool it down cold enough. so it's super pacs. The the the way that it conducts so we sway their conductor. Works is that there are are free charges. That can move around in response to light. And that's why It reflects the charges kind of mimic the light and then the light reflects the light back in a supernatural. There's two kinds of these charges. There's the regular kind like you have an irregular conductor which are actually in a superconductor called quasi particles and then you have the superconducting charges and those are made up of pairs of electrons. That pair off into these things called cooper pairs and And so when does are carrying current they don't have any resistance is pretty incredible superconductors work and you can have a current without having any Any resistance any voltage associated with it and or any loss in terms of energy converting into heat but the thing is that those particles still have mass and that means that it still takes some energy to to speak to increase their velocity and so if you wanna generate a current in a superconductor you have to. You have to accelerate the the charges such up to a certain point so that they have the right velocity so that they're carrying the current and that means that there's some inertia So in other words it it takes a little bit of time. You can't just instantly accelerate them that inertia is a form of its kinetic energy. You're giving to them and that Is a form of inductions. It acts just like a an inertia. The the concept of inductive is something that is pretty tricky In general for especially for for physics students that i teach to understand but basically the idea of an inductive is that it's it's an inertia to to having a current so it's what it's what causes sort of if you want to have a current in a wire. It's what causes it to take a certain amount of time you can't instantly getting a current from zero and there's two forms of at one is the magnetic inductive. That's the normal form where you're actually. There's because there's magnetic field associated with current and there's an energy stored on your kind of having to fill up that you know put energy into the field and so that takes time in order to produce a current and the way to put the energy in the field is applying a voltage or electric field. And so this is the the normal inductions but in the case of supernatural. You also have this connecticut ducts and the thing about it is a connecticut since can be really large in in a superconducting film. Because it's related to the kinetic energy required to carry a current in a superconductor. Since there's no resistance you can carry a large current with a small number of charges. So that's that was a long physics description to get to the how the detector works which is light that comes in interacts and breaks apart. These superconducting pairs of electrons and this is similar to the way that Acc camera you know your your pixels in your camera in your phone works except that it what's happening is line is coming in into the semiconductor in creating these electron hole pairs and in the silicon detector like that it takes a certain amount of energy. There's a binding energy that you need to break those those pairs and that's about equivalent to the energy. And a single photon. But we're detecting millimeter wave photons. Which are a thousand times lower energy. Fortunately superconducting pairs of charges have a binding energy. That's approximately a thousand times smaller. Than the binding energy and the semiconductor so sue so millimeter wave photons come in and break apart these cooper pairs and superconductor and that and the problem is it doesn't change the resistance. The resistance is still zero but what it does. Change is the inductive. The inductive related to the number of cooper pairs. These pairs of electrons are carrying the current. And so if you can measure the inductions in your superconducting film. Then all you need to hold your film up to light and have light shine on it. And then measure the distance and then you're measuring. How much light is coming in. And so it's hard so the last piece is measuring inducted into the way we do. It is by patterning the film in the form of an electromagnetic resonator so we put a capacitor in parallel and then that resonates cancels out the inductive and then what we look at is the change in resonant frequency. So think of it. As kind of like we have these electromagnetic tuning forks that are ringing for a really long time because they're perfect. Superconducting resonator and. We can hear the home that it's ringing and then if we shine light on each one the tone changes a little bit and so by listening to the tone of the resonator we can tell how much light is hitting the resonator and then we can make we can pattern on a on a single for we can pattern thousands of these into resonator and design them so that each one has different tone and then we can listen to all the tone simultaneously. And then we unwrap which were listening to and traffic and measure the light and we can do that really really well. With with like very very small number of external components and so this is a really kind of revolutionary style technology 'cause detecting these long wavelength photons with low energy it has been You know is more difficult than it is to detect the optical type coat. Yeah it almost sounds slighty necessary. necessarily requirement rights. Macy fly. If i understand fell so inducted is very much like inertia in superconductor is sorta kinda dick intact terms. And you have this. Ah cooper pairs of electrons light of comes in breaks them apart and to stop to move and that that movement somewhat of a change inducted. Dwags yeah exactly so. I mean literally. Connecticut is actually the same inertia and so So it's exactly that essentially what you're doing is changing if you like the the total mass of the charges. That can carry the current. And you're doing that. By breaking apart. Cooper pairs when you break apart. The cooper pairs the those electrons. Those charges are now no longer participating in the carrying of current because they have resistant. And it's just the remaining ones that are still paired that have no resistance. And those are the ones that are carrying the current and so you're by reducing the the mass it turns out it's like you're increasing the kinetic conduct it's because Reducing the mass means. You have to have the charges. The remaining charges have to be travel faster to carry the same current so To do that means that you know the inductors is actually more before this idea. Did we not have a way to detect this low energy litter evening. No no we did. We had other ways and actually going way back. I worked with instruments You know all the way back from when. I was in graduate where we used Detectors type of detector call belong later and these are still used these detectors when i was in graduate school which was in the nineteen nineties. These were we we were. I was literally making below by hand with glue and like sticks of wood. And so we. We transitioned from making individual detectors to making a raise small as of these types of detectors in in a fabrication setting like the similar to what you use for making a c. cds. And so that was. That was a big step forward. The problem with the barometer is that at least compared to connecticut detectors. There's there's two complications. The first one is that bolama tres are difficult to make because the way they work is that they are. There are thermally isolated islands absorbers which has thermometer on it. So you absorb light and then heats up and then you know. You measure that with thermometer. And so in order to make it you have to make these arrays of these kind of delicate thermally isolated structures which usually are now made out of things like thin films of membranes of silicon nitrogen for example. And then you have to have these thermometers and then reading out that thermometers. Since the thermometers are not like giving off these tones for example They are a resistor. So you have to have a way of reading out thousands of resistors and so in order to do that. You use a whole nother technique which is a superconducting a type of current sensor called a superconducting quantum interference device or squid and that requires a whole another fabrication. It's cold in it. Requires you know. Sixteen layers fabrication or something. In the belongers. The connecticut inductors detector array is is actually a single deposition single patterning staff. at least. That's how it happened for us. Those were the early ones now. There are slightly more complicated. But still a lot simpler to fabricate one and a lot simpler to read out in large numbers with with a simple frequency division multiplexing. So so there's some advantages and it really makes it now because so now that we've been building cameras with more and more pixels and this is true in the optical in your phone but it's also true for astronomy at longer wavelengths sort of it's really important to be able to scale up and this is one of the ways that i think really helps us scale up to learn easy to manufacture i would imagine lower cost over. Also would you say these. This technology will essentially be a sort of the go-to technology going forward. I think it's clearly has been taking over in certain areas so at shorter wavelengths so in in what we would call the sub millimeter or far infrared pretty much. Most instruments now that are being proposed or are being built are using connecticut. Inductive detectors especially instruments like the one that was involved in called a blast which was balloon borne instrument that From artika that used connecticut ducats detectors and future nasa missions likely origin space telescope and the galaxy emission pro. Both being studied and those will be planned to use a connecticut duct detectors at the shorter wavelengths at millimeter wavelengths from the ground there are still a number of experiments that are using these barometers using superconducting. Thermometers and there are also instruments that are using kinetic conducts detector. So i'd say it's it's approximately fifty fifty at the moment. And and i guess it just depends on exactly what what you wanna do. There's some things that i think. People have developed that you can do with with the barometer. That are still not fully developed the canetti conductors detectors because they they are a technology that has been Proposed or is developed a little bit later on so it may be that as as things move forward more start switching over. But it's also you know it's also true that the bombers are still having a progress in their in their development and and so we'll see but i think certainly if the shorter wavelengths mostly now people are looking at connecticut. Inducted detectors is the main option. Yes so this has the new action phil. So you have designed these things for many instruments. we talked about told tackle ready. You mentioned blast. I found that a heavy interesting. Could you talk a bit about. This is an experiment of balloon based experiments in the dark. Yeah right so blast stands for a trying to get it right Balloon-borne large aperture submillimeter telescope. It's a it's an. It's a project that's been going on for about twenty years now and there have been. I think total of six balloon flights. So nasa this is a nasa funded project. Nasa has a whole program of what's called sub orbital missions and technology development and so that includes balloons so they have these giant helium balloons there the size of football field when they're fully inflated and they fly and carry up to about five or six thousand pounds up to Way out of the atmosphere up to three million bars pressure. So above ninety nine point seven percent of the atmosphere and that's about thirty five kilometers above ground so much higher than any mountain and until blast has flown on one of these balloons blast is. It's been up to a two point five meter primary mirror so this is a big telescope similar in size to the hubble and it it has a camera with the again three colors and each one of the Of the the colors has not only it has basically polarization sensitivity so it can see it can distinguish the polarization of the light and we had. We had our last flight a little over a year ago january just before the pandemic from antarctica. It was with these three arrays of connecticut ducts detectors and it after a long campaign and i have. I have this blog. That i took i. Yeah we imagine a number of times you try and And so many things have to come right of it to work right yes. It's a challenge. The just just the launching of this giant A challenging because any the wind conditions have to be just huge win sale literally the size of football fields incredibly long. it's it's somewhat fragile in its. It's pulling its trying to pull out a thousand pound thing. It's so the launches is very challenging The instrument To you know it requires cryogenic. So it's got liquid helium so you have to do. Helium fills before launch. And it's it's a lot of work it's mostly done by graduate students. So this is for nasa. This is it's a high risk activity and one of the main purposes is is training the next generation of scientists and engineers and also testing new technology. So one of the things that that was succeed go ahead. It's also cheap labor and cheap labor to be a graduate student. You know you have to you have to be able to Solder and live off of a you know a fairly low stipend but It's it. It's also really useful for testing new technologies for nasa for spaceflight. So this was one of the the main sort of tests for Connecticut inducted detectors as technology to be used on future space missions and in that it was very successful because we launched we got to float we made some observations. We measured the detector response and the response of the electron. Ix and everything was working well and so that counts as nasa says check. This technology has been tested and is now suitable to be proposed to fly on a space mission unfortunately on launch. We had an incident where there's a caller that holds the balloon when they launch it that that is released after launch and usually. That's fine but I guess one out of every between twenty and one hundred launches the collar when it falls a hits the payload who'd and that's what happened to us it. It hit the payload and then about ten hours after we arrived. We got to our altitude up to thirty five kilometers. A piece that had been damaged presumably In that Launch a piece structural piece broke and we were no longer able to point the telescope so We only got about ten or twelve hours of data instead of three weeks hoping for i would imagine. Fill out this is a very large balloon is a helium balloon. That goes all up to what heights. Yeah so about thirty five kilometers height so an airplane is flying like seven or eight kilometers. The the yes about one hundred and twenty five thousand feet I guess though about ten times you know a typical sort of tall mountain right Higher and It's not quite in space but At that at that height the sky even when the sun is up is is completely black Very little atmosphere. As i said there's is about three mil- bars it's it's a slim similar to or maybe slightly more than a slightly less than the atmospheric pressure on the surface of mars So it's a it's enough in space that you can basically do a lot of astronomy that you would normally need to be in orbit to do but you can do More cheaply from the balloon and But as i said it's it's also a riskier. I think than Than the normal launches of of satellite telecoms. So so that the mission that you've flew you got some data you see here. polarized thermal emission from interstellar dust revealing magnetic field structures in nearby giant monitor clouds of debris actually get some data from the mission that that flew up me. We did we. We scanned across We did some scans on the sky when we were still able to two point and we detected in while you can see it while we were there and since we've been working on doing more detailed map reconstruction of the of the data After the flying. So we have some sources that we've measured We've also got from a previous flight. Where we we measured some sources And magnetic fields Or polarized estimation and then inferred information about magnetic fields in star forming regions. We obviously didn't get as much data as as we wanted to. We weren't really able to To get any data on our our main science targets so so but since we prove the technology works We are currently proposing still. We had a proposal that was into nasa. That was i it was. It was very well rated. But there were a limited number of a a missions selected for the last round so we weren't selected last time we were encouraged to be apply to fly a another version Rebuilding and doing this again to do a more comprehensive survey and i think part of this is a. This was the first test of the new detector technology and a lot of other things. So we're a lot more confident that now. If we get to go ahead that will be able to fairly quickly build. You know rebuild an instrument that is even more capable and And actually get a all of the science that we were hoping to get with this flight. How much time would you typically have in a in a freight and how do you think it down. You essentially releasing the easy to bring it down. Yeah that's what they do so so in antarctica. The balloons are launched in the antarctic summer. The sun is up which provides your energy through solar panels on on the back and you point. We point our telescope away from the sun Whereas i said this guy at that altitude is is black in office. It's pretty much a perfectly black. There's very little scattering and an article in the summer. The the winds take you around at at one hundred. Twenty thousand feet wins. Take you around in a circle and so you after between ten and fourteen days you. You're balloon that you've launched comes back around to relatively close to where you launched it from an usually one time around is when most Experiments in most groups will will ask nasa who have control over the balloon and they have a commands that they can send to rip open the balloon and released the helium. and then drop the payload. So usually they'll do that when it comes around the first time we were kind of thinking. Ideally we'd like to go around two times so we get more data right so More like twenty days a data but This is what's called a long duration balloon. Flight is Between sort of ten and ten twenty or thirty days there are also ultra long. Duration balloon fights that nasa has been developing in has launched a few and these are launch not from artika but From other places like new zealand and those can stay up for up to a hundred days and that's what we're targeting for next Proposal is a slightly longer flight with a goal of like more like thirty days so that that's the plenty i remember i feel longtime ago. I don't know what the status of this use either. And i think it was google Balloon internet. i don't. I don't know what happened. Yeah no no apps mean and even there was a. There was a lab a an office here in arizona because a student of mine i think went to work there or interview there for for a google alpha alpha project about four millimeter wave internet. So they were going to have a balloons you know flying and and then have them transmit receive millimeter waves and use that as a internet method. And i think they gave up on so so if take a quick break come back. We'll talk about the ranks mission as well as your most recent paper on superconducting kennedy conductors cubits for quantum computing. Right sounds. Good thank you. This is a scientific sense. Podcast providing unscripted conversations bit leading academics and researchers on a variety of topics. If you'd like to sponsor this podcast please reach out to info at scientific sense. Dot com soviet-backed outfield We were talking about the kite. Natick inductions detectors that you design for vegas missions. Deductible told tag We talked about last Decided the mission that you are involved in a fear spirits this is as nia infrared spectral photo metric all skies So so much speech. X yes is is a bit of a different kind of instrument from the ones that We've been talking about because it's It's it's at a different wavelength range. It's near infrared. it doesn't use. Superconducting detectors uses semiconductor detectors. But what it has in common i guess. With some of the other experiments i work on. Is that one of the main goals of spheriks is to make measurements. That will really try. And tell us about the origin and evolution of the universe so understand a little bit more about fundamental parameters in In our model of cosmology so the way that it does this and And send in the title or in the name of the experiment. It's a it's an all sky survey so it's a small satellite actually. It's a very small telescope. And it's amazing what you can do with small telescopes. It's a twenty centimeter diameter telescope. But what it has is. It's covering the entire. Sky has a very very wide field of view and actually another. It's not that unlike a another telescope launched recently by nasa called The tests which is trending exo planet sky survey telescope and and that's also a relatively small telescope say compared to the hubble but it's also got a very wide field of view in the goal is to to to make observations. You know over a large number of objects in that case and similarly for spirits. Our goal is to make a map as complete a map as we make of the three dimensional distribution of galaxies in the universe. And so the way that we do that is by having this telescope wide field of view but then we actually make an image of the sky In ninety six different bands so in ninety ninety six narrow wavelength bands and from measuring the pattern of light in every point that we measure on the sky in those ninety expands Where there's a galaxy week and use the spectrum so those ninety six different wavelength measurements. We can use to actually locate the galaxy in three dimensions. We know where it is on the sky so in two dimensions but then we can measure distance or its redshift by looking at the the spectrum of light and so that's one of the main goals on one of the ones i most interested in is his this three dimensional map and if we have a three dimensional map of galaxies are then we can construct from that a three dimensional map of sort of the the matter in the universe as a whole so the gravitational mass in the universe and that includes the dark matter as well as the the stars and gas and then from that we can. We can then trace how that as a function of distance because we have this three maps which goes out pretty far in the third dimension in the distance dimension. So we can we can. We can trace the evolution of of matter and and gravitational over densities as a function of distance and as a function therefore time and that helps us to understand the evolution of the universe due to get sort of all sky survey typically. You can't on department sure that's absolutely true. And there are in fact. There are a number of other experiments and groups working on doing something similar in particularly from the ground But of course from the ground you know you have a limited view. You can only see a certain fraction of the sky from any point on the surface of the earth so so typically these surveys from the ground cover Some fraction of the sky. I mean they're getting bigger and bigger. So there's there's now optical surveys from the ground that cover at least half the sky and there's plans to cover you know similar amounts there's also other satellites that will do similar measurements. There's the satellite called euclid European lead but with collaborate or in the us that will do a measurement that's complementary to two spirits in that its using a different form of a of of emission lines to measure the distances to the galaxies and it's also measuring different types of galaxies in at different distances. So when you combine all of these ground based and satellite measurements together we really should in the next ten years Build up a really good. Three dimensional map of our universe and this is gonna tell us and so So this is a forty metric spectrum. So you be only seat normal matter here right now doc matter. Yeah that's that's right In fact we don't really have any way yet of seeing directly seeing dark matter at all and so the only way that we really know that it exists is indirectly through the gravitational interactions. That we observe This being spectra metric Survey really what that means is that it's a it's kind of like a the way to the spectrum is made is that it's in little of sort of slices or images Photo metric images but at each in each wavelength lights rather than some sort of having a different type of spectrometer that may be scans wavelength or or or split up the wavelength like with the diffraction. Grating our instrument doesn't do that. We just observe a little slices all simultaneously but at different wavelengths on the sky and then we patch them together. technology here six by six big salon sky. Something like fourteen billion factor expectation. So just this she had amount of processing data would imagine is a challenge young. Yeah so i think you mean six point six six point. Six seconds on his side is the is the size of the pixels An arc second is is One three thousand six hundred of a degree So so it's It's about one six hundred a degree by one six hundred of a degree per pixel actually not super small in terms of Pixels for optical instruments means the resolution of the hubble space telescope. This is where we have a small telescope. The resolution of the hubble space telescope is is less than better than an arc second so so we're low resolution on the sky but it's still a large number of pixels on the sky and then each pixel has as i said ninety six different wavelengths that we measure so in total it is Actually one of the issues is is storing and processing all of that data. So we have a plan for that yet and so this is the nia infrared and so it is that why that that type of solution is sufficient. yeah I mean the. The resolution resolution is sufficient for our science goals. Which are Since we're interested in measuring you know the the large scale distribution of matter in the universe We're not our. This mission is not sort of focusing in and trying to resolve. You know very fine Structures anywhere in in our galaxy. Like like you are with other instruments or or like hubble or tapes web so it's a survey instrument the near infrared is is important because It's it's it's too so first of all it contains the wavelength information that is useful for us in that we can use to to measure these These distances to these galaxies and secondly. I suppose it's complementary to ground based measurements because Covering this range of wavelengths in the infrared is not possible from the ground. There's only some narrow atmospheric windows that you can look at it in the ground so we can cover this wide range of wavelengths that is completely inaccessible to ground based telescopes. How does it work feel So then you look out in the car. You're looking back in time. And so to get the three dimensional structure of the utilize. You could look at the same distance in all directions right at my understanding it. Yeah i mean basically the way that we construct this. Three dimensional image or map of the structure is that it turns out that that there are there are lots and lots of galaxies in the universe. But there's also big gaps distances between galaxy though so any even any six point six arc second pixel on the sky most of them. You don't have a galaxy in that pixel and so they're still over one hundred million galaxies at least at a certain brightness level as you as you look to fainter and fainter galaxies you see more and more and this is what you see in like the hubble deep field for example but But we are interested in primarily the brightest galaxies the biggest galaxies And so there's like one hundred million or or a few hundred million on the sky and we'll see And that's you know maybe one every thirty or forty pixels on the sky so so we're gonna construct this map by taking the the the sources that we see and knowing where they are both in the sky which pixel they're in and how far away they are and then sort of putting that into a three-dimensional model and then using that model as a way of we. What we will see in there is Know fillon -tory structures where you have multiple galaxies. All arranged in in these in filaments will see big bubbles and holes and voids. And we'll see all of these different structures just by putting dots pinpoints in three dimensional space for every single galaxy that we observe that is brighter than a certain brightness or or or more massive than a certain mass or or that kind of thing. Yes have i. I'm sure i'm missing something. So the the new a galaxy in the pixel one the one hundred pixels each of those pixel that shows a galaxy shoeing it a different times on. How would you so. Maybe i'm not fully understanding. So then i say hit us talk of the universe using you know kind of pixels that a different time time points. How would i construct that. Yeah okay. I see what you're saying so you're in fact. This is a key feature for us because basically yeah so let me try and explain it this way. So what what you're saying is true that any galaxy that we look at. We're seeing at a certain time in the past the time in the past that we're seeing is also directly proportional to its distance away from us so So we can we can make this three dimensional map but each each spherical shell around the earth. Right is like is like a three or is like a two dimensional. You know set of galaxies At at a certain time in the past and so this is exactly what we're gonna do is we're going to analyze the data looking at each each time slice so each time slice is like a a surface of a sphere around the earth right. So we're looking at all of the galaxies. That are a certain time. We're getting light from a certain time ago. Which is the same distance. And we're gonna look at those galaxies and then see how how that changes how the pattern of the galaxies in the mass. and everything. how it changes you outwards in slices or farther time. And that's basically tracing the evolution of of matter and formation of structures in the universe throughout time so to sort of that the outcome would could be sort of a movie that right now so so we can kind of see hunting over time yet and in fact yeah in fact on the sphere x web page. I believe there are movies which are You know flying through a simulated set of galaxies. And as you fly through your flying In space really but also forwards or backwards in time depending on whether you're blind towards us the earth or you're flying away from the earth and so So exactly you could. You could make a movie and You know there's various ways to visualize you know this but this map will be telling us they'll in any sort of theoretical questions that That you might get insight to. I think checketts there. Yeah there are so as i said. We're interested in learning about the the evolution of structure in the universe and also were interested in learning about the distribution so how matter is distributed throughout the universe and one of the key. Things that sphere x is is really should be very good at and is highlighted is looking for any anomalies in the distribution of matter that they're and by anomalies. What i mean our Things where there are either big excesses of galaxies or big where you have really really few galaxies more than you would expect from kind of what's called gallician random noise. Oh so one of the things. That sphere x is really going to be looking for is evidence for something called non galaxy hannity and as i said that's deviations from randomness and non-drowsy hannity is important because if there is non it's predicted that there should be some non out sanity if you believe certain models for what happened in the very early universe and so We still don't really know that much about what happened. In the very early universe so detecting Any kind of non gase any deviations from this kind of just random pure randomness Would actually be a window into really really early universe stuff which is also related to possibly very high energy physics so that's kind of the ultimate goal it's also very challenging so we'll see how it works. I can't quite remember. But that was a feature called the data tractor or something like that That aims to be pulling in galaxies. Is that is that still Is that still true. Young there are again. I i mean. I i actually remember going to one of the first talks when i was an undergrad student at this at harvard. Because that's where some of the people who were really pioneering this kind of survey this is called a redshift survey. That's exactly what spheriks is doing. Some of the very early redshift surveys were uncovering things like the great attractor. These this is. This is nearby distribution of galaxies and places where there are concentrations of a large numbers of galaxies. Obviously been nearest concentration. Where in is is called the local group but then the great attractor is like some another nearby concentration There's there's a super super cluster in the constellation virgo. I think there's perseus has a super cluster. i i don't. I'm not super familiar with all of the nearby structures but That that's definitely exactly what we're talking about was fear exits just extending from these nearby collections of galaxies. Sort of out to not not really quite to the place. The limits of where get first galaxy forum. T-rex will will really only go out to a redshift of about one Whereas some other experiments will go. We'll go even farther James bob will be looking at to the very first galaxies out as i mentioned before to redshift up to ten or even even more but but yeah a complete math out to redshift one that would comprise no ninety more than ninety percent of the total volume of the observable universe. So so it's a lot of the the volume there sellable universe. We are still limited to fight that but I guess we can see that. The potentially extrapolate from the to to the Complete universe i mean i think i think there's a. There's the possibility that one day we might understand enough about you. Know the about cosmology especially in the very early universe to to be able to extrapolate to what what the the universe that we are not yet able to see There are also other possibilities that if there is some topologies some complicated Topologies to the universe We might actually see evidence for that in in various Things like the cosmic microwave background. If they're certain patterns there we could we could. We could perhaps figure out what the overall topology is. But it is also possible that we won't ever really be able to know what lies outside of the university. We can observe with with light and you know in our our light horizon so it takes because it takes a finite time to reach us and the universe is only a finite age than than that limits our ability to see and there was some speculation allowed sort of colliding universes that might show up. Cmv anything like that The might be might be able to get some data on well. Yeah i mean so that would also be something Potentially could give signals in this matter distribution map and it might give some some signals. There might be some sign of something like that in the sphere data. I would say it's less likely. I think it's because the cnbc is actually covering you know pretty much our entire horizon. It's probably our best bet for seeing things like that though. Spirits is is better for seeing affects that that show up for example as these non gal district non non housing effects in the distribution of matter. But i want to finish up with your recent paper Of interest for you decide of w ban. Superconducting kinetic inductors. Cubit it So there is a big race In native quantum computing universities and companies So this is a different type of cuban kite Inductive cubit right. Yes yes and and if you remember we started talking about connecticut detectors so it's basically it's using the same Physics that we're using in the detectors for astronomy so yeah and so How small businesses show. Yeah so it's As you said the the idea is kind of comes out of of the types of things that we use for astronomy detectors but but it's it's replacing so so it's a superconductor right. Still superconducting and and there are currently one of the best types of quantum computing systems. That people are working on is is superconducting quantum computing sistance. Ibm google righetti is another company. Working on amazon is working on their own. Superconducting quantum computer all of these superconducting. Quantum computers for their cubits. Which is you know. They're they're fundamental. Unit of logic from all of them are using an effect that is based on The josephson effect so josephson junctions which are tunnel junctions. Between superconductors that were first described and won the nobel prize per brian. Josephson a physicist and end so these Joseph are used. Because one of the things that you need to make accu- bet Just like a transistor or a regular bid is you need. You need to have non year behavior so you need to have some non linear already. And and that's what allows you to go sort of zero or one. St and in the case of a quantum a cubit than this non linear also able to be used and and put into state as well of your zero in one state but but these junctions are have some issues there sometimes tricky to make tricky to to to make reliably and one of the key things today is is trying to make more and more cubans so bigger and bigger arrays of of these cubits that are connected together just like you know is important to make more and more transistors in regular computers and so until google surveys and demonstration by something like fifty three cubits or something like that right. Yeah yeah they have on order. Fifty and ninety m has about the same number. Which isn't that. Many of the computing goes up exponentially with the number. So you don't have to get that many before you're able to compete or do better than a regular computer but but so the there's two things about our design That are that are different so the first thing is that we're not using any junctions instead. What we're using is a superconducting nanna wires so very thin thin wires up superconductor and these have our non linear because because of not not an effect called non linear connecticut which which we Which we've been using or or noticed When we were making our astronomy detectors and because there's no there's no junction. The thought is that they would be less sensitive to a certain type of noise that you have in this In the gap in between the superconductors in this tunnel junction and also the hope would be that they would be easier again. Just like the connecticut detectors easier to fabricate and easier to make large numbers of the other thing. that's different is. it's w band. So w manned is a wave guide. Bandit is centered around ninety gigahertz or one hundred gigahertz The cubans that. Ibm or or google or using They tend to operate in less than ten gigabytes. And so that's that's an important difference because at at ten gigahertz. One of the things that you have to do. If you want your quantum computer to work is you have to make sure that it's not upset by thermal noise so you need to cool everything really cold and you have to cool it for ten gigahertz the temperature you have to cool it to is proportional to the frequency. That you're cuban operates attend gigahertz. they're cooling their these cubans down to sort of fifteen degrees. Fifteen million degrees above absolute zero. Fifteen million kelvin. But if we can make ours work at ninety gigahertz hundred gigahertz then we only would have to cool to maybe. Two hundred million kelvin. Which still sounds pretty cold yet but it turns out that it's a lot easier to cool stuff down and in fact we. This is the temperature that we tend to operate are superconducting detector. Arrays the ones that we use on the balloon we operate those and around two hundred to three hundred million kelvin. And that and that's a lot cheaper and it requires. You can have one of these in your home. You can actually now plug into the wall and get down to two hundred fifty million kelvin in your home but if fifteen million kelvin is probably a little bit too much power too big for you to have in their in their home so so there's two ways that it could be better. It's early dates for this technology. We just we just admitted. This paper was published in applied superconductivity. But but who knows. Maybe this is the right way to go yet. it's exciting. I don't know much about this. So these q. Beds in operation at this on an entangled state the issue is that you can't really keep them in A stable states is that right. Yes so what you wanna do to to do your calculations you wanna you wanna keep your your your cubans as for as long as possible in a in a state that is is is not Say collapsed or or inter interfered with by the environment and usually the environment means Any kind of Thermal disturbance so You can you. Can you can think of a quantum system as as being this like a pure kind of System that could be entangled and you could. Have you know multiple states existing simultaneously. I guess like in. Show dinger's cat. You know your cat being alive at time. Although that's i think a bit of a stretch but that at some point the the rest of the environment the rest of the universe surrounding it destroys that Coherence is called. So what you want is you. Don't want to have coherence. And so the higher the frequency that you're cuban operates less sensitive. It is to deco from the environment. Which is why atomic cubits so there are certain types of cubans that work with with optical light and these can work at room temperature because Because the the thermal radiation you know from the room is is is much lower energy say than the the energy of the the cuban but superconducting cubits obviously have to work cold enough that your material superconducting but But they don't have to work at the frequencies in the energies that that they're using You know right now and so This is a design and a proposal to To make you bits that work at at these higher frequencies yeah. Yeah it's exciting so in conclusion. Fill it it. Seems like you have a foundational technology. superconducting kinetic intact And using it instrumentation possible uses in quantum computing subpoenaed forward fifa news. You see other applications for this platform technology. yeah do i mean for example. There is my my my old group. Where i worked Before i moved to arizona state In cardiff has a spin out that they are working on to use this technology for millimeter. Wave security scanners in this would be assive a imaging so instead of So in airports or for scanning You can see through canvas trucks and things like that. It's it's a it seems like it's very a potentially very useful right now in in the uk because of the the new brexit rules on mean they have to do a lot of this in addition There's there's other applications so earth-observing for example the millimeter wave Satellites that that look at the app in the earth's atmosphere are one of the two in With near-infrared actually are one of the two main ways that we can measure What's happening in terms of the weather. So we get information about water vapor in the atmosphere which is very useful for predicting things like rain. Which we haven't had here in arizona very much for the last year so there are a number of applications that are not in astronomy or in in quantum computing or fundamental physics as well and then there are other things too. I guess The other things that we talk about in my group are using superconducting devices or very a common now for things like searching for new fundamental particles like axioms and we're also talking about if we can possibly use superconducting devices to determine whether or not gravity is quantified by detecting gravitons. So there are a number of new and exciting areas that we're thinking of and i suppose it's nice having sort of this. This base in this technology as a springboard for ideas and our philosophy is usually that we try and think of things that would be really cool but people think now might be not possible or very difficult. I think quantum computing was something like that say ten years ago fifteen years ago and then people were working on it and now you know it's becoming a reality so i think there are other. There are other things that are going to be. Like that. And i would think from media. Site's perspective as we get a higher temperature. Superconducting materials that is going to propel this even further right. Yeah no definitely i. There's a lot of applications out there for for higher. tc materials. That's it's a very exciting time for that. As well and i know that you know there's records being broken so we also we follow those Those those developments that very keenly and I guess one of the materials that we've talked about using Is not that. High t c but it's It's one of the highest. Tc sort of standard superconductors metallic once called the magnesium diebold ride. so that's that's something that you know. is possibly going to be next and i guess the other thing though is it's also there's been developments of cryogenic technology. So so the fact is it's a lot easier now to go and buy a an instrument for not a lot of money That you can plug into the wall and will cool down something to A temperature below four degrees kelvin. Four degrees above absolute zero so So yes a high t. C is is definitely something exciting but i think there is this great potential for even using a lower critical temperature superconductors because of the crime. Yet i can see this melville they saying argh using your phone put that into freeze. Its finding a quantum computer in there just I'm not sure that the cri- will get that small but that would that would certainly be. Yeah be something worth worth paying attention to. Yes but yeah. This is great. Thanks so much for spending time here. No problem thank you thank you. This is a scientific sense. Podcast providing unscripted conversations with leading academics and researchers on a variety of topics. If you like to sponsor this podcast please reach out to in full. At scientific sense dot com.

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