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#107: Lindsay Pedersen

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1:43:11 hr | 1 year ago

#107: Lindsay Pedersen

"This podcast is part of the shared. PODCAST network learn more at share dot. FM Hello Friend. I'm Jeff Gilbert and this is my podcast sharable I decide to call Cherbourg because the conversations I have with my guests are so good you gotta tell someone variety show of sorts where we talk about. Culture relationships leadership dating business comics marketing parts sales and more wherever the conversation station takes us. One thing is for sure this podcast. His share welcome back share bill. I'm your host Jeff. Gilbert has always in today with me I have author of the book forging and Ironclad Brand Leaders Guide Lindsay Peterson Lindsey welcome to the episode. Thanks thanks staff. It's good to be here with you. Yeah I am so totally jazz to be talking to you. Today I spent the entire morning with you as I alluded to prior tests officially jumping something on the episode Reading through your book and going through the different concepts in there and I have like within the first three chapters of it. I think I built enough notes in in front of me that we could do like we do a marathon of like ten episodes. Because you're on with that. I honestly like I say this not suggesting the people do this but I think if people just went through your book and read the headings like literally that's et like without even reading all the stuff in between it it would be a masterclass and then if they were or to do what they should do which is read all of the stuff under the headings. I think that they would get so much out of your book is so it takes theoretical of kind of ideas and makes them like ridiculously concrete. You are you are so very specific in a and I'm so glad to have you on because of that because I know that you are are really you're not against you're just sort of the antidote to squishy elusive in superficial intangible. Kind of idea of brand and I think people look for that so super stoked to have you here. Well I'm really superstock to be talking with you about it and that such a compliment that you gave me about my book I I invite people to just skim the headings and see if that alone either wet their appetite to read more or it's like oh now I'd get these things that I have been wanting to get. Yeah I I'd imagine it should like if you know again like listeners if you see forging an ironclad brand on on a shelf just pick up leaf through it a little bit because really what I got before before I start any book I'll usually like I'll read through the chapter headings I'll kind of like processed the book rather than read it. I'll start by kind of what's the format has it laid out You know headings all that source of chapters the flow that and just even through that I got like really excited lighted to start actually reading through it Because I really do think we have this problem in brand and you really describe it beautifully in. I think it's even in the first chapter after you're talking about how when you left the bay area to move to Seattle and he started you know Your Brand Strategy Agency you had these interactions. That will sound very familiar to anyone who has ever encountered anyone that does anything in brand where people would say things you like along the lines of like. Oh so you do logos. Oh I love graphic design or we don't do brand because we market SEO. And it's like. I think that's the issue. You mentioned. Something really brilliant in there that You alluded to this interview that Malcolm Glad while had where he talked about when people talk about brand he. He likens to when people say Africa at that was a really interesting analogy can. Are you able to go through that by the way I am talking really fast now but I read your book this morning. So and it's really like on the tip of my tongue and I realize you probably wrote it before this morning. Anything you're like. I don't even remember what I wrote. That happens a lot so it's really close to me but if you remember that part what did you mean by that. Yes yes so yes so Malcolm glad will. Somebody asked him this question in an interview podcast interview about brand and he said you know I. I get kind of uncomfortable when people ask me about brand and the reason is I feel the same way about the word brand is I feel about the word Africa. Like what do you mean if you're talking about Africa You could be talking about some big Old Continent with you know wildly varying problems and terrain and even climate so if one person person says Africa may mean you know the slums of Johannesburg and the listeners is picturing Morocco or the Masai Sii tribes outside of Nairobi. It's going to be a really confusing conversation and the same sorts of things happen with brands. So I I say brand and one person thinks of logo another person thinks of TV. Advertising another person thinks of kind of the personality and tonality finality of a business. Another person thinks of A tagline all of these are expressions of brands. So it's not that it's not that they're wrong that's what makes this sort of tricky. It's just that brand is a very large and important and highly consequential consequential Word just like Africa is so. It's so important when when whenever I have a conversation about brand now I know to make sure we're defining the term so that when I talk about it the way that I think of it the listener is you know hearing me the way that that I wanna be understood so so talk to me about that and kind of explain for people. Then what do you mean by brand and One of the things that I really like an and I'm sure it'll come up in his this concept of the Northstar so talk me a little bit how you would explain it in a simple turn your elevator pitch real quick and then we'll dig deeper into what is brand brand this what you stand for. It's the meaning that you own inside the brain of your target audience. So you know Oh that what that implies is you're gonNA. All businesses have a brand whether they are deliberate in defining it as as I advocate. Hey folks to be or whether they are passively just letting the market define it for them so It's it's it's what do you you mean. It's this relationship between Your Business and the audience of Your Business. What is it that? How is it that they think of your business? And that will be the sum total of all of their experiences with hearing from or interacting with your business. It's not just one thing it's not gesture messaging. It's not just certainly not just your tagline or your name or your logo. It's everything that you mean. As in their head as a result of all of the things that they experience of what you do and so when you think of it that way and if if you believe that that is ben official to be deliberate in defining what you want to stand for then you can see how it'd be kind of weird to think of brand as merely a logo because it as a consumer and you can think in your own life like are there any businesses that you really loyal to because of their logo likely not so But but if you think what are the business. What are the drivers of my loyalty to a given business? It's what they give me. It's the value that they provide for me which comes through in their product at comes through in certainly comes through in their messaging It comes through in the way that I feel having interacted with that. A business So it's it's much easier to just kind of like check the box. Yes we have a logo. We have a brand But it's not gonNA give you all that much value as a leader in making decisions on how to come to market and how to allocate resources so when you believe that it's well You're well served to do it in a deliberate way ban. You define what you do want to stand for for and you allow that meaning that you want to stand for it to be your North Star and that Northstar Informs everything that the customer experiences not just marketing not just Your copy it. It's actually actually also informs the culture that you're building it it informs your your hiring informs What who do you? Who Do you bring on? Who Do you how do you retain them? How do you make them excited? What are the new products what are the innovation roadmap ideas that you want to adhere to what are the How do you want to price it? How do you want to evolve your pricing? All of these things that are way more more like upstream than your marketing Those are the things that add up to. What what you're gonNA Amine inside the head of your audience it when you describe it that way it does feel really big and when you have people say things like Oh you do logos because I feel it? Gets people trying to simplify that because as as you go through the book as you go through really any good book on brand. There's a lot of deep questions that have to be answered to be able to create this North Star. You can't just like create more star in an afternoon unless you're super clear on like who you are who you serve. How you want your company when you grown development and all those other things that kind of are born out of brand so it's a really big and complex topic? Do you think that because it's so big that's why people try to boil it down. That brand marketing is this. It's your logo which your colors fonts. Or if I hadn't been yeah I think it's I think it's nebulous. It's it's big. It's messy it's it's it is nebulous and some people I mean it's it's interesting because there are people who don't mind that in actually especially in the creative world. I think that a creative audience is actually okay with that squish genus. Would I find with my business. I work with CEOS and I haven't medicine yet. Who Likes quirkiness? So it's really easy to see how somebody might somebody who does not like squishing us and has Only experienced the idea of brand as squishy one to dismiss it or to tidily Tuck it away into marketing or outset reverse it to an agency instead of owning it and considering their most durable competitive advantage So that was my kind of the Bee in my Bonnet Bonnet. And what motivated me to write this book West to deconstruct it for people who otherwise would find it either mystical or intimidating or both because it's It's worth understanding it's so powerful it makes your Your life as a leader her so much more successful and satisfying and fulfilling when you do have that North Star so I have a lot of heart for Bringing this this idea of brand Northstar to people who I think most benefit from understanding it in that way so I want to put a pin in that come right back to it but I need some clarifying context about you where you from this so there are people in and brand who are of that kind of creative background in the only thing they really care about the brand is all of this quickness and that's who they cater their brand conversations then there are brand marketers who come from you know the CFO type background like for them brands of function in which to deliver tangible business numerical measurable value to the bottom line. And then there's sort of every kind of space in between in in reading you. It seems like you've got a healthy balance of those two but I wanna understand where you're kind of your genesis of this came from like Before you ever got into business like how did you even decide. Gallon and go into brand rand How did you how did you perceive business What for you is the driving force behind why you do this? Is it so that you can bring those two things together. Is it so that you can deliver tangible monetary value. Is it so that you can make business more human and connected. What's your thing? Yes all of those. Gosh it's it's so this is welcome to my therapy session. Everybody because it's it's so when you when you think back and you try to retrace like how did I get here. It's it's not a straight line at least in my case although the squiggle then the squiggle so I spent my undergraduate career thinking I was going to become a clinical psychologist college est in so I went very deep on Working with people in you know people with psychiatric conditions. Shins and That was my plan I wanted to really loved kind of understanding the psyche But then my senior year of college I realized will that actually means being an academia for like seven or eight years. Here's and that isn't really. That's kind of a practical person. I didn't really like that Ivory Tower Element. And so I it was sort of floundering and started working in a role where I was doing. Well I went into management consulting. It's probably the shorter way of saying it. I I started doing management consulting with Deloitte where It's kind of a great thing to do if you don't know what you WANNA do. Because there is such a broad the cross section of industries and functions. So sometimes it's like optimizing call centers and sometimes it's I don't know developing processes as for a healthcare company. But it was. It was really good for me kind of like taking vitamins but it was not something that I enjoyed and so in in this program that I was in at Deloitte you have to either go to business school at the end of it or just leave the company So I went to business school and and When I was in business school almost almost the first week I think I I? I took my first marketing class. So here's me so I'm a liberal arts background person. I was a psychology major and an English minor and I I started taking marketing and I was like holy cow. This is this is just psychology applied to an economic entity and in my second favorite class was economics. Microeconomics Game Theory Behavioral Economics. So that's when when I was a little bit of Eureka That you can have a career doing that. So that was my interest in marketing I continued to I mean I I got a General Mba. But I took a lot of marketing classes. And I did my internship between between the two years at clorox where I was in brand management and then I went back to clorox after I finished business school and I spent six years there in brand management so Tell Me Jeff. If I'm going to debrief I'm like no the only thing I'll interject here. Here's that are stories are remarkably similar. So I'm loving watching us from the outside. Okay Wow I'm that's so intriguing being so similarly squiggly yet well even even the where the squiggle landed us. So we'll get to that in a moment. I WanNa hear from when you tell me kind of how you arrived here today. Yeah I'll I'll jump in and I'll give you my like sixty second. Hey while we have similar stories. Okay okay so I eyesore when I was When a brand manager at clorox so in consumer packaged goods clorox Nestle Procter and gamble? General Mills the Johnson and Johnson. The brand manager is the CEO of the business so the brand manager actually has responsibility. And and so you're really truly a leader of of a business and you're not simply trying to get marketing metrics you're trying to Grow the PNL and marketing is the primary way that you can do that. But it's a means to an end and brand is is very much considered sacred in consumer packaged goods. Like what what your brand strategy is this idea of North Star. It is very Familiar in a consumer package goods world. So I got really good at defining brand ran strategy when I was in that environment as all of my peers did So I left clorox and started a consulting business where I was working with leaders on marketing strategy I realized real quick that this was this was unique to consumer package goods leads. That brand was was like the North Star of the business. And that's when I started getting this bee in my bonnet to change that and Share with others others. That brand can be this this really this filtering mechanism for building an intentional business. Got It okay. So here's my sixty second awesome so I wanted to be a professional basketball player. That didn't work. I don't want to be a filmmaker that didn't work out. I want to be Eh photographers and I started a personal chef business. Everything was about like me doing this. Big Amazing bold thing where I was going to be you know hall of Famer and whatever it was gonna be a lot of of creativity not a lot of business. Abby decided to go back to school and that's when I got my Mba semi undergraduate was in film and Media Arts. So it was very much about communications. I always had an interest in psychology and people and relationships is around that time that I read how to win friends and influence people changed my absolute world And I became very very fascinated with the idea of persuasion wages and influence and Connection and I've always felt that like my friendships and relationships in network were always like my my strongest thing. So I go back to school I go to business school and I don't know what your experience was like in business school. 'cause I'm not sure quite how similar are pre business. School was I know you were liberal arts in in psychology. But for me when I got there I it was like jumping into an ice bath because nothing felt right. I saw you know the first half of my business school was finance and accounting and I was like what the Hell is going on. This is not interesting and it's terrifying because eight numbers I'm also not a super hardcore capitalist so like you know people are talking about like selling companies in this not. I'm like I don't care if anybody care about the people at these companies so anyway I get to my second half of the MBA and marketing classes on school nights organizational behavior savior like this is amazing and I learned basically three big lessons throughout my entire. Mba everything else. I could kind of consider as like you know just little things but the big things were our money is language of business. Economics matters in everything. Even though I wasn't great at ECON I found it to be incredibly fascinating very thought provoking why people make decisions decisions. The theories of supply and demand compared vantage all that stuff was like killer totally awesome and then the third thing is that everyone has a role because the big thing I learned was not every business person is going to be good at the same thing so I have my strengths. There was there was a point where like they had to have We had to give break up into groups and give a presentation and all the people that they've been helping me with accounting and finance all of a sudden we're like catatonic the way that I was when I had to calculate net present value and I jumped on stage and did my presentation. They were like how in the world did you do that. So everybody has a role. So that's coming out. I go to a management consulting firm. I was there for about two years doing interactive marketing digital marketing went to a PR affirm- left in my own things. Start Mayo Company. My company after seven years was at the new agency for a year and half the nine here so in a lot of ways kind of similar patterns we have an idea of why went into it kind of went back to business school. Kind of better synthesizing. All these things together and now we can work with businesses from a kind of a balanced measured perspective. I love that yes. We are kindred spirits. Yeah okay so I put the pin in it. I want to come back to it now because this is your your story makes this the question for me that much more interesting. Because I'm I struggle with something similar to me what I see one of the issues with brand and this is a similar thing with any I do a lot. You know my thing has been strategy for for the last twelve years so I work with companies to try and figure out. How do you take you know goals timeline budget and audience and then build a strategy around it so you can get what you need with with your marketing objectives and the problem that I typically see and it's probably a little bit? It's easier for me in my work with marketing than it would be. I think for brand is that I I see that a a lot of brand is not a quantifiable thing. It's not a thing that you can put on a spreadsheet pilot and to your point. CEO's don't like squishy and if you can't you can measure a brand effect after the fact you can kind of look at like certain brand metrics but a lot of the work that you have in this book. The questions that are asked you cannot put them in a spreadsheet red sheet so I guess the question is. How do you go about doing this work or even convincing the CEO's that you work with to do this work when you can't can't process the the work to get to that brand strategy in a purely quantitative and numerical way Yes yes This is something I think about. A WATT costing isn't it is and it's made exacerbated by confusing -ness of the word brand So there's two ways that that I encourage leaders to think about this number. One one is brand strategy so separate brand strategy from brand marketing tactics brand awareness building tactics. They're two different things. So the brand on strategy is the exercise of defining who you want to be in the world and that doesn't cost anything necessarily. It could cost you the the time that it takes you to do it if you engage an expert to help you with it costs that money but it's not a it's not a media. Spend a brand awareness building. Tactics are a media. Spend and like any marketing expenditure should be measured for our ally So first first of all Kinda Disconnect those two things and with the brand strategy heart of this it's closer to just business strategy. What is what's your goal is a business? And what is your unique right to exist in this in this market in this The world of your customer. Because if you are if you can't be super duper clear about what your unique value is. You can't really expect your customer too so it's like Almost more from a philosophical standpoint. Are you building a business this that you want to endure for a long time and mean a lot to a lot of people If no and by the way that's a valid response if you're building and arbitrage kind of flip company that you want to quickly exit you know sell sell to a competitor Maybe you don't need to build. Maybe you don't need need a deliberate brand strategy if you want to be around for a long time and this is in a in a way this is how I personally smelly suss out that the types of leaders that I want to work with if you want to be around for a long time and to to build something that really means something beyond beyond the PNL than your brand strategy is probably the most pragmatic tool that you have to accomplish that. So so that's brand strategy now brand marketing WH- people say I can't measure brand what they usually mean is. It's hard hard for me to see the effectiveness of the money that I spend on brand awareness. You know The billboards that I put up or the TV ads or the radio ADS or the sponsorships and events. It's really hard for me to see effectiveness of that okay. So now we're kind of out of the realm of brand strategy and we're into the realm of Marketing Roi. I do believe that you should be able to measure media. Spend anything that you spend money on on a regular basis you you should know how effective it is but to say that you can't measure rand awareness tactics or media media spend is I. I don't believe that you can now. Can you measure it in the next twenty four hours. No and it's much you know. You can measure lead Gen and most performance marketing tactics. You can measure almost in real time so no you can't do you. You can't do that but again. Are you building an enduring business or you building a business that you're gonNA flip in three months if you're building a business that you want to be around for a long time then you probably have time to measure the effectiveness of your brand awareness building tactics ultimately and sometimes this is where the more kind of CFO the F. O. minded CEOS perk-up ultimately brand awareness. Building is going to help your your Caq. You're you're The cost of your customer acquisition will go down if you have an integrated Thoughtful marketing mix. So you're you're touching people with awareness. You're touching people with consideration and you're doing lead Gen and performance marketing in the same way that somebody who's GonNa Propose. Marriage has a higher probability of getting a yes. If it's the tenth day than the first state the same thing happens with customers because trust is building during that process us so your caq is GonNa go down when you're doing if you're doing successful brand awareness building tactics. Your CAC is GonNa go down. Here's the here's the final thing I think this is probably the the most ultimately the most value creating customer lifetime value. If if you are super clear on who you're serving what promised you're bringing them and how they're ultimately better off because because they interacted with your business because they bought from your business or they spend time with your business When you do that you decrease price sensitivity among your customers so ultimately so what's the economic argument for brand it elevates your pricing power it makes people not care as much that's what you charge right like ultimately that is what defines how much your business thrives is your margins so if if you are by definition preferred brands will confer higher price than non preferred brands? So you're going to make more money when you are on brand and that translates to the lifetime value of your customer compounding that that is that brand also fosters loyalty so not only do they have a higher willingness to pay one time but but they will stay with you over longer periods of time. So that's where it really becomes a multiplier for a business for on from a PL standpoint. It's not just about reducing reducing Inefficiency in marketing. Which you get by cutting that you're the cost of customer acquisition? which is really a a really important and worthy thing to do? But if you're if you want to be around for a long time you WanNa have customers that are going to be with you for a long time as oh wow and customers that value way beyond the price or the cost of the goods that you're selling so much there'd unpack back. Okay so first of all GonNa State for the record that I'm a believer so I firmly believe in brand as a bigger concept then logos and brand awareness metrics and marketing and everything that you said there I think does a really good job of breath. encapsulating why brand marketing tactics are in fact measurable and part of a larger overall marketing system. I WANNA I WANNA hit the reverse button and go back to the brand strategy piece and I want to take the position of Devil's advocates. Not The right word. Because that's not actually ought not challenging out of a what I WANNA do is I wanted to say in my experience. I found certain people that will challenge for their from their own perspective right so the CEO's and and executives that I've worked sometimes there's been a little bit of a a need to convert them and turn them into believers at the very beginning and what you just described going from brand to brand marketing strategy. I see there as kind of being like two different things and I think that you did the second thing I there and I wanna go back to the first one. which is that? I think when you're going through those conversations where you say brand is what you stand for. Our brand is a relationship a brand is a promise and fulfillment of that promise so if we take that and we say we agree with that and We're believers in that. Then we can go to that next step and talk about the brand awareness marketing tactics and how you measure that etc.. What if you can't get people to buy in in that previous thing because if you can't get the brand set in the first place because they're questioning what what is the value value of finding out like so brands a relationship? What does that even mean relationship is so squishy right? The brand is what you stand for what we stand for making more money. How have you dealt with because there are the an the answer for you? Specifically as those aren't the clients I work with because that just sounds like a pain in the ass which it is but but I want to go back to that that because I think that the problem that brand has in in my viewpoint in my experience has been you have to first convert them to believers they first have to understand understand that it matters that you have a promise that you have to convert them to the idea that it matters that you're a customer will have a relationship with you. The the shorthand that they will then an occupying their brain for what your brain represents to them makes their buying decisions easier in the long run that it makes it removes the friction for them because they understand the promise that you've made and you fulfilled build it and they trust you but I have to get them to believe it. So when you're sitting there in those rooms with the executives around the room and you're saying okay. So who do you want to be in this world. Can you get blank Langston stares back at you how do you deal with that. How do you get them to believe in the first place? The brand matters. Yes yes yes yes. I mean the the very pragmatic first responses. I don't work with people who are only uh-huh who are mercenary. You know like doing this. I want to make the money. Yeah it just doesn't because actually in it's not so much a judgment as it's it's a mismatch and potentially There are there are businesses that has created massive value without out having a strong brand because they have had other competitive advantages so like Microsoft not the coolest brand wildly value-creating company right. So it's not like it's not coming from the only way that you can thrive is by having brand but you oh have like maybe so then I come at it from if it's somebody who I just really want to see it this way and this is also why I wrote this book as it's it's it's it's There's there is so much to deconstruct. Sometimes they'll Saito. Forget about the word brand. You know that like has baggage for you and you dislike are allergic allergic to that word. What's your competitive advantage? Because I think that most leaders would agree that you have to have a competitive advantage to win to be doorway Amos like a definite like definite rate like you can't win without a competitive advantage whether it's military strategy peace strategy business strategy or brand strategy we need to have a an asymmetrical advantage over the rest of the market so sometimes that helps Because has in by the way it's the same you know whether we call it competitive advantage whether we call it brand strategy sometimes people prefer to call it. The mission Russian It whatever you know. I'm not like a purist so that you have to use the word the words brand strategy But sometimes that will help. This is really a another one is business strategy What's our business strategy while business strategy always articulates? How're we going to win? How are we going to win? How are we going to accomplish this this goal that we have set out out? Well the way that you accomplish that is by having a competitive advantage and the way that you have an enduring competitive advantage is to have a brand because it's very easy to copy most things easy to copy features it's You know patents expire eventually leap. But it's very difficult to copy emotional benefits. It's it's very difficult to show up as a character that another business already shows up as so bats how it becomes this sustainable competitive advantage that otherwise you can't have sometimes that helps them But the people who are haters like that in some ways. That's why I wrote. This book is to say. Hey It's okay that you don't like squishy I don't really like squishy either. It's this actually isn't a squishy concept elevating pricing power fostering retention You know building a competitive moat. Those are all economic concepts They're not squishy at all And you can put numbers to them. Yeah and I would just re endorsed that I think your your book does a really good job specifically for skeptics and haters or non believers. Because I think you do a really good job. I again of tying that kind of squishy idea those concepts that feel more touchy feely inhuman men and translating into why that actually becomes monetary value for the company. So kind of going back to that the way that I tend to perceive brand rand and this is in part from a conversation they had with a good friend of mine. WHO starting a brand agency name queuing savior on one of four of uh charitable and? He had this really interesting model of describing brand where he described as essentially on the one side picture. That you have business on the other their side you have people humans right brand. Is that thing that sits in between that sort of translates the business to the humans and the humans to of the business that the brand is how businesses can understand the needs and wants and everything of the humans whereas the humans can use brand to better understand who is what is. What's The promise of the business business with this thing that Kinda sits in between and in my mind brand typically is if it had to choose one of those two masters it would choose humans right? The brand is for serving and understanding the needs of the humans guiding the humans towards understanding what the business is about and the people inside the business of what the businesses about so brand is very much much about humans and it seems to me. That brand is a commitment to something and business is a commitment to profitability to reducing loosing expenses to increasing revenue and ultimately driving shareholder value at least in the current state of the economy is is that do you feel that. There's there's a morality orange ethics to brand that because it involves humans it it is what gives business the warmth to better understand its role in this world outside of just making money. Yeah the Love I love this frame I okay. So there's there's the EH moral okay so let let me let me Parse this. Yeah I think that you can have a really great brand and not be awoke company. Okay like I don't think I don't think that they are they that they necessarily you have to coexist But I think the larger question because without getting too like philosophical about what what right is what moral is I go back to and you said this businesses exist to serve a customer to create and keep keep a customer. That's what that's what I believe. That's the Peter Drucker That's the definition of a business. A business exists to create and retain gene customers and the side benefit of that is that it creates financial value. Okay that's how you defend. I well mystic this. I'm I'm certainly just one person saying that. You know I mean well. I'm not just one person because Peter Drucker was was no You Know He. He was not alone voice in the in the woods. Taste leader in the field so he definitely I never read that definition. I I do think that it feels a lot nicer than the way that I tend to think about it. Well so if you go to in the you can. I think you can still be a moral moral neutral here. Sure how okay so a business exist to serve a customer. How does a business customer? Well it identifies something that customer needs that nobody else else is serving at finds a way to solve that need that that's value that's value creation and when a business does that And does so with his eye toward We exists or that we can create value for this customer by solving this problem. That they have bob in a way that nobody else can solve it that is. That's a highly to me. That's a highly empathetic way of looking at Your Business. But it's also the way of running your business that will create the most economic value. So they they go hand in hand. Why because the value exchange exchange so a a business makes money because customers give money to the business? If you'RE GONNA ask your customer for their money or you know in some businesses for their time or for their their attention but let's just say money you're asking them to part with their hard earned money for something that you are giving them so make sure that that saying that you're giving them is worthy of that money you're asking for That you're you're bringing huge value to that person so that you deserve the money that they're giving to you and when you do that they will love you more which will decrease their price sensitivity and increase their loyalty which allows you to have this flywheel flywheel of value creation so. I think that you know like I think that the moral kind of layer two this is is almost more like frosting. Like you still can have you. You can still create a really thriving business if as long as you are bringing value to your customers. You're creating value for your business and if you're not doing that then you're not going to be in business. Your customers will tell you through their intra. Ah Their inaction that you don't deserve to exist as a company and you won't be a business anymore So that's kind of. That's the way I I think about it because I'm thinking about it. I have worked with businesses that are not woke businesses. I don't I don't think I've ever worked with an immoral company. But most most companies out there are not You know like Patagonia Although that is a business that I massively admire and we'd love tour with some day But a lot of businesses are like you know the Yoga studio down the street or You know the the franchise of coffee shops in. I don't know eastern Washington and they're trying to you know try and have a livelihood and in order to do that they have to create something. That's enough value. That people are going to part with their hard earned money and give it to them and so I guess I guess I'm I'm a little bit less US lofty about it now. Having said that if you are going to have a woke brand one that is really going to stand for something thing that's hugely meaningful in a large scale like Patagonia You can't you again. You can't do that without bringing value to your customer so just because you have a a woke marketing campaign like Gillette Does it meet like that. That's a that's a function of of what you're saying out there but it's much more important what you're doing. What's the experience that the customer has a buying that razor so I think that they can be really mutually reinforcing But I I think that brand is so fundamental to a healthy business that it it exists outside of morals. I totally agree with that. I think the example Gillette is like a really interesting one especially when compared with something like Patagonia because in in the in the brand of Gillette. All that stuff isn't exactly core to the function of who they are in have always been then whereas with Patagonia. It's they are who they say they are and they always have been that way. So it's like you you can't even get away with having a brand like Patagonia without having done all that work of who you are in the world because there's so much there's so much in the book giving example Volvo. How like you say Volvo an everyone thinks the exact same word safety right? Everybody thinks that was Patagonia. They have built a brand in which they are known for what they are known for for who they are. And whereas Gillette it's like they're known for their brilliant razor blades strategy of you know December the the handle from the actual razor blade. So I think that's a really good example I do want to talk about price sensitivity. Because it's a thing that came up in your book and I I I Kinda WanNa poke at Yale a little bit with saint dead cool so I wanNA put out there before even get into this little Set of questions is that whenever I consult with individuals one of the things things that I tell almost. Everyone's like to raise their prices. And I I give them all the reasons by can like all things I have to do in order to be able to raise their prices. But I'm a big fan of raising your prices because value value in our economy is a function of what people will pay. So you push the supply and demand curve until it breaks so you you should charge the maximum you can possibly also we charge by delivering the amount of value that is required to be able to charge that. I personally believe that. That said I think there's a question here about what value. Actually he means. Because in there's a lot of different ways to define value and you give an example in your book that I think is a really interesting one for us to tinker with. I'M GONNA put ended out there so in the book you talk about Clorox and you mentioned how clorox bleach is essentially the same ingredients as any other bleach but it costs more and the reason why is for all of these things that happened with the brand of clorox perceived value. It's emotional benefit that comes from it and I think it's very difficult for us to put a dollar value on a perceived benefits emotional benefits. Something that is not tangible. Related related to the value of the product in almost a Marxist sense of like value is the creation that the Labor that is put into you know like a raw utility right so if if clerks has the exact same ingredients as other bleach brand is what allows you to increase the value of that. I guess the question is One one is it ethical to use brand story in order to increase the value of a product that has kind of a set market value based on like a commodity. I guess that'd be the first first place for us to start. Yes I thought about this a lot and I I hear you and again I tell people to raise their prices all the time so like I'm not I'm not saying saying like you shouldn't charge and make as much money as you can. We all got but I guess yeah like when you look at the fundamentals of what you're delivering you know that is is real tangible actual value like. Here's the amount of wood that went into this and here's the output based on labor and here's the cost how much that actually gets passed along to the company in terms of profit versus the value that gets passed back to the customer because the company was able to reduce their cost of goods right. It's I think that the first I principal. That's relevant here is target audience to your target audience. When you're crystal clear on on the kind of the center of the bull's eye of the the person that you're serving your pricing According according to their value perception. So it's interesting whenever we have this this Discussion and I had a lot with my my peers. Ears at Clorox as well when I was working at Clark's many many many many years ago That Clark's bleach so six percent. Sodium hydrochloride right ninety four percent water and in it is the same the same contents as store label bleach and yet the price we price it much higher When somebody makes the kind of push back that you just made it's universally somebody who is not the target audience and the reason the reason I think that's relevant is To the audience for for clorox bleach. They actually Eh. They massively value the non tangible benefit of seeing a clorox label in their laundry room now That might not describe you or me or a Lotta people but I know but to the people who we are are optimizing our brand for they really care about that so they would be a little bit insulted if they heard that the perceptual benefit. NFL as opposed to the the The concrete functional rational benefit of bleach. They'd be a little bit insulted if you told them that. That's not a real benefit benefit because they actually care a lot they care a lot about kind of the feeling that they have at hearkens them to childhood. It makes them feel like a good bomb Those things are worth paying for to them now as soon as you start to like it breaks down if you're not really really high integrity about who your audiences because then people the people who are not a target audience who don't value it in that way our I. There's not going to buy it. Frankly and so. What a really disciplined leader does in the face of something like this they say? What does our target audience value? Not what does everybody value. which is our target audience value and they make pricing decisions accordingly so that's almost clerks bleaches like a stylized I example because it's so it's so extreme but most most businesses it's not it's not literally a commodity like that So let's let's talk about Volvo for a second so Volvo. They could charge more than they do. But they don't and the the reason is there optimizing their price for their target audience. It's all congruent. So they're all of the signals that the the consumer perceives about the brand are aligned to uphold the same meaning And that's an in. The customer wants to pay the. The wolves are are or more expensive than Toyotas. The customer wants it to be more expensive. So that's that's that's the way that I think about it. I I realize though it's really easy you to kind of get into a slippery slope with that because You you don't want to Gouge your customer either her That would not be a you know. Peter Drucker IRS Maximum to Get and serve customers that would and not be serving the customer either. So I think you can take this too far But I but I do think maybe like the the main thing thing that I hope people understand when when listening to this is that price is another way that customer experiences your business so allow your price is to be an expression of your brand just like everything else and don't assume that Having a low price is is better for your customer. That might sound kind of weird to say. But if Mercedes customer walked into a Mercedes dealership and found that Mercedes or suddenly ten thousand dollars instead of seventy thousand dollars. I think they'd be really annoyed and would find that they don't like the brand is much anymore so baked pricing basing decisions just like all decisions according to who your target audiences not to who you are because if you're not the target audience you have to like step into the shoes of your customer customer and then make that call according to how they perceive it and so much of this I'd imagine is a function of the culture like the the big C culture not like company culture but more like the culture of the society. We live in the more that we see celebrities carrying around Louis Vuitton bags more people want those and if Louis Vitton were to take their bags and reduce the price of them. That's no longer the signal of wealth and opulence that it once was to your example I guess I just always Kinda get concerned with it at to your point about kind of the the slippery slope of it One thing I do want to dig into on that was you talked. Talked about target audience. And it's a thing that I wanted to get really deep into with you because a lot of the questions that I tend to get about brand are things that undoubtedly people listening right now think and undoubtedly all of the people that you've probably ever worked with and it is the question of how do you choose because so often we think a well all you know. A great example is like clerks bleach again were or Volvo or any of these is like well. Everybody needs bleach in their house or everybody needs a car. Well how do we choose. Who and you give them? Really good frameworks for picking your target audience. And there are a lot of other questions that I want to get into with you at some point about Kinda the WHO decides and how do you. How do you pick sort of thing? But let's talk about target audiences when you sit down with a brand and you wanna be able to have this conversation with them because we've gone through a lot auditory here you want them to. They now understand. They need a brand strategy. Brand strategy is going to inform their culture. It's going to inform their sales team. They're brand marketing tactics. They're all of this is going to come together and they say okay now. We need to get started. Let's pick our target audience and you say who's your target audience and they go everybody. So how do you start walking through this. That happens all the time everybody we wyoming my brand and I'm like I don't have any idea how to say no because is it just want everyone to have this. Like how do you okay so first of all like sometimes sometimes When you ask yourself or a leader the question who's who's the target customer it? It kind of sparks. This fear that that were not going to be able to sell to people who don't fall into this group into the target audience so the first thing that I That I tend to to say which alleviates some anxiety is target. Audience is not the same as total addressable market. So you know on the dartboard that the total addressable market is everybody. That could possibly buy what you're selling That's a big big circle and then the target audience is simply the center of the Bullseye. So just because we're saying that we're targeting moms with kids at home like like clorox doesn't mean that it you know if you're a dad that you're not allowed to buy a clorox bleach right like we're just saying that we're going to optimize is for the center. So that's the first thing Brianna example it so this conversation of target audience. There's actually two things I WANNA to make sure that We talk through and the one is I think you did nicely. which was the dartboard example? I thought that was really really good. Visual example of it but you're Rei story area. I think crystallizes that so if you could share that with the audience that'd be awesome Sir so. Rei I the Outdoor Gear Company their Their target customer is the outdoor enthusiast. This is the a person who brings the most value to Rei because they spend the most money on outdoor equipment and they also are the they they also are the person that receives the most value from Rei. So it's it's this this reciprocity Between between the customer and brand so the outdoor enthusiasts. That's the target audience. So if I were to say so. I- Lindsey Walk into an Rei. And I okay so I can't a maximum of three times a year at least two of those three times are in in my backyard with my kids if Rei were to start optimizing for me as their target audience. Lindsey who is like not. I'm not much of an outdoor enthusiast. They would start losing the outdoor enthusiasts and and this is where it gets really interesting They would also also start losing me because the reason that I'm going to. Rei is at the outdoor enthusiasts shop at Rei. They know what they're doing. So Oh I'm going to. I'm going to trust them so as soon is Rei Waters down their target audience to get. There's probably more people that camping their backyard than that. Like hike in the cascade mountains or a Nepal as soon as they water that down own they lose both So instead and this is sort of the marriage of the dartboard analogy and Rei instead think of it. As the the outdoor enthusiasts are at the Bullseye on the Dartboard I Lindsay and one of the outer circles of the dartboard but when you shoot suited a dartboard and you shoot for the center. You're more likely to get on the Dartboard at all and your by by over serving the outdoor enthusiasts. You're more likely to bring in somebody like me as a customer as well. So you're best serving everybody on that dartboard by Over serving the middle of that Dr Board Love It love it so that was the first thing I wanted to make sure we covered the second thing and this is. I don't know if you're willing to do this but like I said I'm dealing with this with my brand right now as I'm I left my agency Back in July and I'm starting a new thing and I keep trying to figure this part of it out and so when I read your book you You have this thing about picking your target audience in candidly. Like I've been through the pick your target audience conversation with clients for the last ten years and I gotTa say you framed it in a way that I hadn't really considered I think I've probably brought it up time time to time but like I don't think I've ever considered it in the same way that I have when I think about target audience when I talk about clients I'm typically Lee sang like okay so you serve You know women between the ages because I'm thinking of it almost like a facebook. Advertising actually used serve like a between thirty five and forty-five who live in a major metropolitan city have one kid and who watch So like it's very demographic heavy but then there's there's also the techniques that I'm thinking how do they use tools. How to use technology all that and then you think about site graphics? What are they interested in whether their behaviors and different and things like that? But there's something that you brought into the mix that I thought was a really interesting piece of its. I'd like you to set that up. which is this kind of? What's a shared value? Well you or theme that you as the brand have with the customer and that really resonated with me because they Type of work. I'm trying to do but talk about that. A little bit about this the several different different ways that you can define a target audience. Yes yes yes okay is the most the most basic way that I asked this. This is. Who's the person you want? More of. Tell me about that person who is what are they. Like what matters to them. MM-HMM What are their behaviors? What's their level of involvement with your category? How often do they shocked with you? How much do they spend with you? Tell me about this person. what we we know about them. What is their Why do they buy us? Why Why are they involved in this category That becomes your your target. Audience is who do you want more of the reason that you want more of them as they bring the most value to you know you as a company can indepenedtly decide what you mean by value. Oh you because some companies might be like. WHO's the highest price? The person who spends the most with us that might be that might be the the marker for desirable Customer with one company whereas maybe somebody who has very low churn high retention might might be for somebody else and then you know if in a nonprofit environment it might have nothing to do with money it might have something to do with how much they overlap back with your mission This is the type of person that I want to work with. So that's the all it really is this question of who are the customers that you boast Bost- want and how can we Serve them best so that we can attract more people like that. That's the doc that's the fundamental question here so if you do have a kind of a mission driven Lens Jeff it sounds like you would be in this camp then who are Patagonia would be another company like this actually. Rei as as well Ah Many nonprofits would be so. If you're a company that you really like your goal that the customer that I want more of is the customer who's going to enable me to attain this mission more effectively And the in a in a lot of cases is the way that you achieve that overlap is by looking at what they what their values are. So what they care about Now sometimes that. The value is very behavioral so actually the. Rei example would be that somebody who spends a lot of their our weekends in the outdoors as a behavioral overlap of values. Rei has a dual mission. Actually they're trying to get more for people to enjoy the outdoors or into take care of the earth so that person is actually not only bringing them more financial value. They're also bring them more mission value you now. Above the functional level or the behavioral level of spends a lot of time outdoors at might be. This is a person who who cares very deeply about what we as a company. Care deeply about This is so Ever Lane is a fashion brand. That is very much about transparency of the supply chain. Like how did you get this Silk Blouse What factory made aided and what? What were the workers paid? Who made this Blouse I? This is a brand that I personally am very loyal to because I care a lot about that and they ah so. They're serving somebody who has an overlapping value because that's what they care about is a company that's why they started the company That's another wait in another lens to help you get at this idea of target audience One thing that you brought up jeff is is demographic markers so this is a really common thing for people to can flake when you're defining in your brand and your brand positioning. What do you want to own inside the mind of your audience You're you're looking at the psychographic the The most most like who is this person. What motivates them? That's what that's how you define your target audience when you're in a moment where you're about to buy media so you're Tabei facebook ads. You're about to buy Busts outdoor ads. Then you're starting to you by necessity need to identify. I some demographic markers in order to reach those people but don't confuse those two things Start with when you're defining your brand start with. Who is it that you you wanna serve really disproportionately and then when it comes to a media by Then you can turn to Oh it it turns out that outdoor enthusiasts if you're rei tend to live in You know Urban areas and they tend to consume a lot of NPR and they tend to be upper middle class and they tend to be sixty percent male. Forty percent female. Something like that Those are interesting pragmatic ways that you can reach them. But don't confuse don't confuse the tail of the dog with the head of the dog the they're not going camping because they're male and live in an urban area. They're going camping because they they care about camping. And it just so happens they also live in an urban area and our mail. Yes don't define the center of that Dartboard by the demographics defined by the the values and like the underlying unifying who these people are based upon the thing that they share across any possible demographic doc yes at least when doing the brand strategy I think when you're doing a marketing campaign if you're doing a specific if you have a specific tactic in mind so let's say it's Say It's Volvo and they're doing a since I live in Seattle. They're doing a Pacific northwest promotion promotion than they are going to start layering in demographic regional markers in order to reach me but that's different from saying saying Oh we're going to redefine the Volvo brand optimized for people who live in Seattle. No that's like so you can start to bring in demographic markers but don't do that until you're at the tactical media by level love. It love it so when I think about my own thing. There's there's a number of issues that they come together someone and kind of like a couple of things out here but when it's a brand of one it's a lot easier to answer the question of who decides because it's me but in a lot of brands will have the trouble with that. There's a lot of different cooks in the kitchen. So let's say you have multiple owners or partners. They're going to have different ideas of what that brand is so before you can even do brand strategy you have to get you know alignment internally Or maybe you know there's the issue of well. Is it just the partners. They get to decide decide or is it also the team that gets to decide what about the customers the customers decide. What your brand new? So I guess the question is who is your like who defines what the brand is is that you know more than once when you're entering into that brand strategy phase is that you know is a collaborative process or something where there there needs to be somebody where the buck stops ops with them so I guess that's kind of a starting when I guess when I think about my own stuff I have trouble choosing but that's just me problem. A more difficult problem is when when you when you start adding multiple constituents into the process and I know I need to consider who my customer is going to be in all that and who are with values are. I need to do all that too. But it's got got to be a lot more difficult when you have multiple competing points of view so I guess the question is who decides what the brand is. Yeah yeah this is and this is probably W I'm probably Different from other brand strategists. In this way I require the CEO to be the project with me and to to be the client client and the reason is I think it's disingenuous to build a brand strategy without the CEO. Being the one to make the call on the tough trade offs so so In the subtitle of my book is a leader Guide so it's forging an ironclad brand a leader Guide and the reason is that it is so common I'M FOR LEADERS TO DELEGATE RANDOM MARKETING But actually in order to give air cover to marketing as well as to the rest of your teams teams you have to be the one who can model it so ultimately just like with any strategy. It's IT'S A. It's a decision about what you're when you just decide on what you're going to focus on you are inherently also deciding what you're not going to focus on and you're taking do things off the table so that you can focus on this singular thing and the person who the bucks whoever owns the PIA now so if it's the CEO so sometimes it's a PNL owner general manager Whoever owns the PNL needs to be the one making these decisions or they will not be adhered to you? Once you're implementing the brand When push comes to shove and you have to make a hard decision one is on brand and one is off brand but the off brand one is the one one that will will yield the most fruit in the next couple of weeks? if the CEO wasn't making CEO or the piano owner wasn't wasn't making the tough decisions while building the Baronne strategy. I guarantee there are going to go for the what's off brand but is going to generate utility utility really quickly so it's it's it's ultimately a very courageous act to make these choices and it takes a lot of humility ready to answer with with honesty and curiosity and empathy for the people who we most serve and what is is it that we best bring them that nobody else brings them that takes it takes courage to define that Into not hedge and therefore therefore it takes not only takes the leader to be doing. It takes a leader. Who's got who's got the courage to do this? And and without that carriage edge you might build a good brand but you're not going to build a great brand. Yeah I completely agree with all of that so now. The next question becomes clarity. which isn't a question? It's a statement so I'll clarify what I mean by the way great branding on adding a leader's guide because that really does position who your four. So look some people have branding superpowers. Clearly you do it works for you and you're able to clearly communicate other. People all are going to find it much. More difficult to articulate the answers to the questions that you're posing here so so yeah you put together forging an ironclad brand a leader guide. You we know who you're for and that's a very short form to the point you know it's just beautiful to it's four right. It's exactly what you do. And who it's four but a a lot of people have trouble in articulating what it is that they do. Who therefore CETERA? Is there a secret sauce to simplifying. What your brand is about or framework? There's a lot the things that I do with clients where like if I'm teaching them how to pitch. I have a couple of different frameworks as one I use called. ABC Awful better. Connector you describe the awful world that exists before your product on the better world exists in the near the CONNEC back right. So it's an easy way to put your product like in a pit in a pinch. You need to figure out had differentiate yourself this is how you do it right. So that's a framework that I use. I use frameworks for customer service for all these different things short hands. I have frameworks and you know kind of template. It'd kind of ideas in my head of how to do these things. And as I'm going through my process process of trying to I know instinctually who I want to serve and what I want to do a lot of different things but putting it into a clear ear and simple way of doing it proves very difficult. And I've been going through Donald Miller's story brand and I'm reading books like yours trying to figure out how to do all of this and I've yet to uncover any sort of for lack of a better and more cringe-worthy phrase silver bullet. So how do you go about about doing it and working because without you. How or someone like you? How do brands do this where they answer all these questions than there still left holding paragraphs text that no one's ever going to get through to understand what the rand promises how this totally? So when I you decided to write this book what I realized fairly early on is I want to demystify brand but I also want to you. Show a sequential method for building it for people who are not comfortable with squishy so the you haven't gotten to it yet in my book but the probably the Like the second half of the book is an eight step method. That I I use when I'm when I'm building a brand strategy for clients the way that I I just my my own style. I like I like to follow a process and I think partly it is because when this is already an amorphous topic round It lends it. It's so it's so such a relief to have have some to be able to put some structure to it So the step by step process that I use that my business uses when working with companies. That's what I kind of unveil in in my book and the first we've already talked about the first stock which is defining your target audience defining your competitive frame of reference like who you compete with And then the second step is to listen but let me talk about the third step where I have because I like you Jeff I love. I love frameworks because especially actually with something that does it's. It's hard to get to clarity when you have this like visible structure container that you can put it in. It's so helpful so the there's a diagram that I use. I call it the uncommon denominator. And so there's three circles. There's your customer. What is your customer? Watch so you like list the things that your customer wants and there's another circle in the diagram is your competitive additive strength. So what is your competitor. Good at in by the way by competitor I don't just mean direct competitors I also mean substitutes and what are the work around on solutions. What is the behavior that you're competing with? I'm glad you added that by the way a very editor really worked clarify that really important. It's what what is the consumer view as your competitor is what we're really asking not to add nothing. So like they're all the option of doing nothing and and when I say that to people that are like yes they don't have to buy from Mir my competitor like no. Sometimes they can literally just not do anything. That's that's probably the the majority short of the volume that most businesses source is from nothing. It's from non-consumption. So like when I when I was running clorox bleach pen which is like this controlled. trolled form of Bleach Bleach Gel the the The competitor was living with stained sheet. stained shirts. Because you couldn't neither throwing away giving him to the goodwill just living with stains on your shirts that was our main competitor is a powerful thing is somebody who spills a lot of stuff on my shirt. I now have like the the desire to pause and go to Amazon to order myself clorox. I would love it if you did that so okay so I go. What does the customer want second circle what is competitor? Good at what's good about that competitive behavior from the customers vantage point and then third. What are your strengths as a company? What are you really good at that? The customer customer cares about What are your what are your? You know. Maybe it's intellectual property. Maybe it's your product maybe it's your culture What are the things where he really really shine? And when you when you view it through the Lens of the spend diagramme you notice like within neither diagram the center of the three three circles. What something that? The customer wants that a competitor is good at giving and that is also your strength. So you're good at it. A competitor is good and And the customer wants it great. But here's the thing most people when defining their brand stop at that and the problem is that that is not a an owner will benefit because it falls into the circle of something that your competitor is good at two so pancakes. I'll use use example of pancakes. So what is the. What does the customer want? They want like a lovely Saturday morning with their kids. They want something that's easy to cook. They want something that's delicious. They they want something. That's a little bit out of the ordinary What is the competitor? Good at while Dunkin hines really good at distribution. They're available everywhere everywhere. They have a very quick recipe They have a lot of heritage and brand loyalty and then what is my company. Good at so. I've got the Swedish pancake brand. And we're we have this this proprietary recipe that my Swedish grandmother brought from Sweden we have bought the thin crispy texture to our pancakes We use organic ingredients list. All these things while okay so in the very middle of the ven diagram is delicious right because your customer wants something delicious. Your competitors bring something that's delicious and your product is delicious That's great but you're a pancake. You should be delicious. That is table stakes preach on right right like that that that is. That's what most brands do. Is they say. Oh we're the delicious one It's great that you're delicious. But that's the beginning not the end. That's where you have to go okay. Great what's what's the way that we show up that nobody else shows up and yes we're delicious delicious plus something else. So in my example of the Swedish pancakes that something out of the ordinary the customer wants that and I can bring that because I have this really unusual all Swedish recipe so that becomes the uncommon denominator SOCI- overlap of what your customer wants. What you're good at bringing at what your competitor headed is not good at bringing So the Swedish extraordinary experience that becomes your positioning And of course your delicious. But YOU'RE GONNA stop talking about delicious because that's a category benefit. And if all you talk about as being delicious you're generating demand for the category agree but not for Your Business in particular. So that's I think that's the main thing I would share it from framework standpoint. Is this Dan Diagram and you can you also by the way. Look on my website. If you don't have my book I share this Ven Diagram I've seen people printed out and show it to their CEO just to get the CEO to see. That brand is not just a logo It's it's what is the differentiated value that you bring to your market and you concede at By three the shark lines that surround these these circle as you can see it. God had uncommon denominator. Yes does it. So you know I think about this because I remember walking by was in New York Ark and I was on my way back to the bus and I walk past like it was like best dry cleaner I was like. What is that what it is at best strike like seriously like? That's what you've got you've got best dry cleaner like you're the absolute best dry cleaner and when you said delicious pancakes that's all I can think of is like that is literally how almost all marketing now all sounds to me and part of it is volume brand like I feel like we're in a space now where there's so much content and they're so many repeaters out there there's so many people that are just basically clipboards they copy somebody's inspirational posts in and make it into an instagram post in a tweet whatever as it were were diluting the meaning of words and we're pretty out there that it feels like it's really difficult to carve out something that feels unique and different And I think that's one of the big challenges in even if you were to go through this sort of an exercise. One of the things that I'm struggling with at the moment is trying to figure out how to phrase in such a such a way where it's You're very intentional. In the book about talking about being specific and not being like general and vague which makes perfect sense by the way. But it's so the difficult sometimes to take a big idea and make it specific when it feels like. It's this big vague general nebulous concept and that by narrowing it to something specific. It it can be very It can almost feel limiting and then on top of that when you have the vocabulary that you have access to words like delicious it feels so common so it short of sitting down with a Fist Sorus and a brand strategist. It feels like it would be so difficult to do it. I I'M I. I have just a a notepad full of different like Oh maybe this is what I do or maybe. This is the tagline put on the website. But it's just it's such a difficult thing to do. Okay so I I. I have a couple of thoughts on this one as an expert. So come back to specificity in a second. But you're bringing up a common a a common pitfalls that I see is conflicting the exercise of defining your brand with creating the copy to express your brand as her sizes different grant. If you're otherwise you just get so overwhelmed or you pick a piece of copy. That's cute that doesn't express your differentiated competitive advantage. So this though about that real quick sorry to cut you off. But so I feel very confident in like the overarching brand who we who might company is what them out to accomplish. All of that and I've got this big thing right like it's massive so then onto that next step of like okay. Well what's the first thing that people see on my website. The site was that two to three cents. So at some point when you wrote this book like you had the book and in it in his like jam packed full of awesome. But you still all had to put a cover on that book and I think that's where an agree with you because I've been in those exercises where it's like. Okay let's let's talk about our mission vision values values and goals. Let's talk about what our purposes like literally like our purpose. If we were to die tomorrow what is the what is the legacy we've left behind. Who are we what do we matter? Therefore right. And it's like okay on the website. Our tagline will be no no no no. Let's back up. Let's go to the bigger thing and talk about the bigger thing. So I'm I'm with you on that. I guess we're I'm getting to is that I think great brands. Great Book covers do that. Thing where the few words words the few sentences elude to the whole thing right they they talk about that whole big brand the book that you have the cover talks talks about what's inside of it right the tagline. You have on your website. That that illustrates what your brand is about. That's like the art form that like. This is where the rubber meets the road right. Like all of the exercises of. WHO's your target customer the interviews the writing down ideas all of that different stuff leaves you with notes notes pages and pages of stuff and at some point you have to turn it into a thing and it seems to me like the hard work happens in doing all that research in work that leads up to it but then the very tiny task that feels insurmountable larger is is coming up with how to distill that down into a sentence? Yeah or even a word right like Volvos is just one word. God Hey okay let me offer one another framework that that I I think we'll be helpful for this and then maybe we can even go through what yours looks like okay. So the the benefit ladder after doing the uncommon common denominator. I need okay. This territory where we are both meaningful to the customer and unique the benefit ladder. And you can kind of like play around with this idea if you draw a ladder on a piece of paper and you've got like the bottom of the ladder is your functional benefits and the top of the ladder is your emotional benefits. It's And you write down all the things that you bring. That are good like all the things that you bring this target audience that They will value. Are you from the very rational product attributes at the bottom of the ladder to the more kind of grounded benefits in the middle of the ladder to to the emotional rewards at the top of the ladder. And when you do that you start to like see okay so I have this like functional benefit so so say it's Say It's Nike. So the functional benefit is that their shoes are lightweight. Okay like that's kind of a very rational national rational statement. Our shoes are our souls way for So who cares about that functional benefit if it Like why why does that matter. Well because then our shoes will be faster will perform better in the race. Okay we'll why is it good to perform well the race and to be fast. Well then you can win. So that's the top of the ladder So Nike's positioning statement would be something like to the athletes in all of us. Nike is the one shoe that will enable you to win. That's because Nike's Shoes were created by the Oregon State track coach with around Seoul's So that So that you will have the best performance and will achieve victory making that up but something like that. Okay so now you have your positioning statement. That's not a sexy piece of copy like you would never ever. You would never make that consumer facing language But any any copy that you ate should lean into a portion of that statement so in Nike's case like up until nineteen eighty nine. When just do it became their tagline? It was mostly about speed Because that was sort of the middle of their benefit ladder it was mostly about. You can run faster. And then they became just do it. which is sort of this you know the the Moxie and swagger of winning the top of the ladder So what you say. Say Your Tagline the headline on your website There's no universe universal answer to it you it might. It depends on where you are in your awareness. awareness-building journey as a business because Nike You know if they started out super emotional with just do it before anybody even knew what Nike was They wouldn't be educating people that Nike Shoes and they would lose people see how they they they start with more functional element and then build up up so I identify what your ladder is. What are your functional An emotional benefits. And how do they support each other and then decide where do i. I want to focus on this ladder based on where I am in my business building journey So in my business it's called ironclad brand strategy. A friend strategy is the distributor of the company because when a company is looking when a leader is looking for a brand strategy. They're going to type those key words into Google most likely so whereas Ideo design firm is has such high awareness or Mackenzie Enzi has such high awareness that they don't even have to say anything about like what they do They can lean into the more kind of Transcendent transcendent benefits. So that's another way of like getting a little bit less amorphous about it is to build a hierarchy of love. What all we're all of these things fit and then decide where you wanna live on that hierarchy? I like that a lot. Because as you're using your on the spot example of Nike my thought was like Oh then I would probably put on the front page of the website for that like lightness. Wins right like you boiled it all down you all different things. It's light it helps you win. All this and I like this about at the emotional on functional benefits in the futures attributes Kinda you know listing them all out and then kind of jumbling them together until you find something that works. I think that that is an excellent way of doing such also. I mean the thing is to like okay. So that's helpful for copyrighting because you I love that what you you just did just in the moment just now like when it gets framed It's you can create on strategy copy more easily when you've gotten it still like that. The other reason that these can be so powerful is way beyond marketing. If Nike knows that it's about speed it's going to become a filter for for their innovation pipeline. Right If they're they could be evaluating. I don't know like If it's the nineteen eighties eighties. Before before. They had climbed the ladder to just do it in they were evaluating lake. Golf shoes. Are Golf shoes fast. No okay then. We're not gonNA do golf shoes. You know it becomes a filter for things way beyond copy because it's like a pillar that upholds the the bigger eager meaning the bigger. Promise that you that you bring and fulfill I like that but it actually leads to where I was GonNa kind of take you next and ask you about. Is that what happens when you know so. He gave really good example. Stay with that. So Nike makes golf shoes. Great Golf Products. Now sit under speed. Yeah Ah let's. Let's pretend that we're back in the eighties. And they made basketball shoes and they made running sneakers and they made golf and tennis equipment and they've got shorts and they've got sneakers so now they do all of these different things and even when you you know I feel like with Nike. It's pretty because of the exercise we just did. It's Kinda easy to see like who their target audiences but when describing who they are as a company I guess as an even saying it out loud. I guess I'm seeing how like you. You can actually tie things together once you actually have who you are as a brand. Yeah I mean I think you're you're you're bringing up a really interesting dynamic that happens when companies grow beyond their original category. So you know Nike's used to be in the shoe business so it was fast compared to other shoes when they decided decided to expand beyond shoes and then they even expanded beyond running shoes to other types of Susan's for its n even you know a payroll for other sports Well first of all part of the reason that they were able to do that so like going back to the benefit ladder. The top of the ladder is victory. Winning the Nike is the goddess of of victory. That that's their emotional and reward by making speed and performance. It's a an enabler of victory. And then they start to stand for victory that enables them to cross categories. That's another reason to have a benefit ladder better because you can see. Victory doesn't only exist in running victory existence sports period and oh we can go if we're about victory we don't have to remain at running shoes. We can expand to other categories alongside so So part of it is that like not is the groundwork but then at the same time when they're going to start to go into golf and basketball and lots of other sports and now they're in wearables and when apparel their way beyond shoes they have to add other pillars at the bottom of the ladder. They can only be about fast They have to add other other reasons to believe other Proof points that uphold this bigger. Promise so we're gonNA bring a bigger promise to the world. We have to have more proof. Points wants to enable that so then they add I Dunno lightweight fabrics and you know high tech swept proof. I I'm making this up I. I don't even know what they would put at the bottom of the ladder. But it's something about The the the sensory experience And and the friction looseness quality that enables you to perform really well in a sport So you can't just claim Bingham a bigger space on the ladder until you earned it and you've earned it by delivering your original promise really well but you've also been innovating to make that a more and more expansive idea that that can live and other categories as well so otherwise it's like You know you're you're making making a big promise without backing it up with reasons to believe and in that erodes trust got wow okay so I would consider what we've done here today. Something of a brand masterclass. Okay all right well. Is there anything anything that I didn't ask you about brand because your book has a lot in you know like I said I haven't gotten through all but what I did get through. Gave me enough to go this full hour and forty minutes talking about brand but is there anything else. You think people really need to know something that I didn't ask about related to brand. That's going to help people walk away from this episode and go and do something thing remarkable tomorrow aside from going on Amazon Dot Com and purchasing your book directly their kindle or coming in paperback or hardcover from. Thanks for about Jeff. I think that you know the the The thing about brand that is now getting being a lot more conversation than it than it used to have is the idea of using brand as a way to create meaning for employees and galvanizing galvanizing employees as well as Attracting the right customer so In a world world where Employees are more and more looking for that sense of purpose and for like. Why do we exist outside of the piano that were hopefully growing growing again like that can be sort of this. Mystical squishy thing. To define that and brand can be your friend when it comes to the North Star for the internal Brand builders as well as for the customer so that's in fact that's when brand really really starts to become this This flywheel of value creation as because then your customer employees are also attracted to your company so because they resonate with the company's purpose and then those employees in turn create more value for the customers who also create who are also craving that. So think of it as just this this overarching Crystallization of purpose Chris that can motivate and manifest all the reasons that your company exists to begin with love it. I'm glad you added that because I think so often in the conversation for business and this isn't just you know when we're talking about brands really when we're talking about anything we get very obsessed with the customer and I WANNA podcast with good friend of mine. He's another podcast. Are Dug Sandler is a podcast called Nice guys on business. Great podcast but he asks asks this question. Ray says you know rank the following and he says Products Services Employees customers. I think that's what he I think. That's what the forward forward I might be messing up products and services might be one in the same. There's another one but any who It's very rare for us to talk about employees and I think that's such a mistake because this overwhelming focus on the customer I think too many businesses. Forget that the way you treat your your employees is going to be the way that they treat. Treat your their customers. And they're such a vital part of that and beyond that the employees are in their own right now in in twenty nine thousand nine and beyond they are their own marketing channels for the business. What they write on glass door matters what they write on their twitter? facebook linked in about their work matters and without a cohesive message that helps to drive. Drive them moving on the same direction. You're not gonNA attract more of the people who resonate with vision. You're not going to be able to keep those people because there's somebody else who's GonNa come belong willing to pay them more money or maybe give them something to believe in so. I'm really glad that you brought that up. And I think that it's a conversation that needs to happen more especially as as it relates to Brandon. How that is a way of galvanising those employees and keeping them moving in the same direction? Yes a thousand percent boom. You said it perfectly perfectly man. This was a blessed. I'm so glad that you came on in that You know we were able to connect and I got a chance to look at your book and everything I think you're doing really great work out there and and I think hopefully people have listened to this episode. Get a lot out of it and earn spire to really think about their own brand And act. I have one final question before we go. Can you build a brand after the brand's already been built or do you have to do this starting from scratch you can build it after it's already been built. It's it's definitely. It's nice when you don't have a lot of baggage. It's it's nice to be able to have kind of a blank slate but the vast majority of businesses that I work with already. Have you have a brand name. They already have customers. They just haven't meant like sharpen their pencil to get it super dialed in. So yeah absolutely you can do this in you can take an old and sick business Sick brand and you can improve drastically just by getting really deliberate about why you existed. who serve so it's not squishy elusive or superficial official superficial or intangible but it is malleable? Exactly it it absolutely is like like platinum. Got It all right. Well This is the chance on your show. I want you to tell people where they can go and be social with you or they can learn about your where they can pick up your book where they can hire you where they can just send you postcards that tell you how great you are or whatever it is that you wanNA share. This is the point in the show where it's completely turned over to you and you can promote yourself unabashedly. Thank you so much Jeff. This has been such a pleasure to talk to you about brand for this luxuriously long space so thank you thank you And to Listeners Yes oh my book is forging and ironclad. Odd Brand is available on Amazon india-bound all those sorts of places and if listeners are interested I do have a A free giveaway that sort of a supplement to the book it's a workbook of the step-by-step method. We talked about in this podcast. That can kind kind of a company you as you're reading the book and you're going through the steps so you can find not at ironclad brand strategy dot Com I'm pretty active on linked link Dan and would love to know folks who are listening to this so reach out to me on linked in and twitter as well and And Yeah I just encourage you to think about brandon in his big of a way as you can so that it can create the most sense of purpose for Your Business Rock N and while take it from me. The book is fantastic. Book is ironclad and this podcast sharable. Wait don't leave. If you've never listened to my fancy altro do it just once for me please. Okay if you enjoy sharable and you find it valuable able. There's a few ways that you can support the show one. You can share it on social media which I strongly encourage. I mean it's literally the name of the show share to you can review it on Itunes stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts and if you're an overcast user as many of my listeners make sure to click that starbucks on the episodes of like the third way that you could support the show by blogging about it a discussing it on your own podcast or even by making a youtube video where you talk about one of the episodes and then the final way that so you can split. The show is by supporting directly on patriotic. You can find the link in the show notes now before I let you go. I WanNa tell you about one. Other thing sharable DOT FM. Sam where this podcast is hosted. Do the podcast or know someone that has a podcast that you think is particularly sharable. Well send them to sharable dot. FM to apply to be on the network shows that are selected not only get added to the site and in some cases to the shared. Welcome radio PODCASTS. But we also bring together the best tips tips tricks and tactics for promoting your show and growing listenership and for our headliner and feature shows. We provide fully outsource social advertising support. So leave the promotion to ask so give it a look and if you wanna find some new and interesting shows or if you just want additional exposure for your own show or know someone who would benefit. Please let them know about it. Thank you for tuning into another episode. sharable sincerely appreciate it and the show would mean absolutely nothing without you the listener. So thank you and I hope to to see back to the next one goodbye for now.

Mayo Company clorox CEO brand manager Volvo North Star Africa Peter Drucker Northstar Jeff Gilbert Gillette Seattle Patagonia CFO Malcolm Deloitte Africa basketball TV. Advertising Johannesburg
Facebook's Record Profit

WSJ Tech News Briefing

05:54 min | 2 years ago

Facebook's Record Profit

"This is tech news briefing im Tanya boost reporting from the newsroom in New York and Facebook pulled off a record profit in the fourth quarter, due strong financial results indicate that Facebook is still a powerful platform for reaching consumers. Breaking it all down after these tech headlines. US intelligence officials in their annual worldwide threat assessment say that China and Russia are pouring resources into a race for technological and military superiority that will define the twenty first century, the two countries are more lined than at any point since the mid nineteen fifties. The report also said US adversaries are already likely targeting the twenty twenty presidential election. The threat assessment also warned that the decades long US lead in scientific innovation is shrinking as foreign nations. Seek to acquire talent company's data and intellectual property. An apple engineer allegedly stole intellectual property related to the company's autonomous vehicle program. Jeon on Chen has been charged in San Jose federal court with stealing the trade secrets, and according to the journal apple found more than two thousand files containing confidential material on a personal computer owned by Mr. Chen, apple suspended, the engineer Lear this month and revoked his access to company property if convicted Mr. Chen. Faces a maximum of ten years in prison and two hundred and fifty thousand dollar fine. Amazon is becoming a fixture of Super Bowl ads. The ecommerce giant will be in the big game for the fourth straight year, and it will air two spots both of which were released Wednesday, a ninety second spot features celebrities such as Harrison Ford forced Whitaker and astronauts, Scott and Marquel. Testing new products that are equipped with Amazon's Alexa, the Super Bowl appearance is part of a larger TV advertising blitz by Amazon. It's national TV ad spending in the US soared almost sixty percent last year and has nearly doubled since twenty fifteen. Amazon was also one of the top fifteen national TV spenders last year, shelling out more than companies such as Toyota and McDonald's. The journal Suzanne for nica has more on how Amazon is jumping into mainstream advertising at wsJcom coming up even as it's battling through a string of challenges. Facebook reports a record profit more after this. So record profit for Facebook, it reported per share earnings of two dollars and thirty eight cents in the fourth quarter. Typically, the heaviest spending period for advertisers and beating analysts projections. Facebook's net income rose to six point eight billion dollars revenue rose thirty percent to sixteen point nine one billion that percentage increase marked Facebook's slowest revenue growth, yet still the growth is significant for a company seven years after its IPO. Let's check in with our earnings expert. Joining us now on the line is rob Enderle of the Enderle group patching in from Oregon Hira radically. The big question is how did Facebook pull this off despite the many, you know, we'll call them struggles as of late executing very well in terms of generating ad revenue across the platform, and they pretty much reversed or declines in Europe. And they're looking stronger. So I think for the most part I just showcasing that once people set up. Habit pattern. Our and are on a service like this. It takes an awful lot to pull them off. And since this is an awful lot of the activities occurring. They're still able to attract more people onto the platform despite the negative press, and and a number of initiatives to disconnect from Facebook. In fact, a lot of out there right now as one happy life, get up, Facebook, and as usual, we're not listening to it. So we're still there. Right. I guess it all goes back to the fact that you know, they're still getting adds to people and people are still using Facebook. You know, that atmos- sheen is still strong, despite whatever other problems might be at play. Yeah. Well, you know, when you're up thirty percent during very negative news period that pretty strong pretty strong, Ed business. In fact, we're gonna see Facebook and apple run against each other. Because apple just pretty much cancelled all of their developer apps for breach of policy, which means face because probably going to pop up and say all the office employs can no longer use. Iphones because it's those employs that used those apps, which is going to create an interesting dynamic between the two companies. So so it's gonna be it's gonna make for an interesting year between both both Facebook and apple CEO. Mark Zuckerberg had a lot to say on the call. Let's fast forward to the good stuff. What do you think is the main takeaway if we if there is one in terms of what he has to say on the current state of affairs? I think you take away the fact that he's serious about fixing the problems. I'm just not clear. Most of the probably not clear if he knows what the problems really are. They're certainly putting in place resources to assure that elections are no longer damage by by the service to assure the news is accurate and not fake, and and certainly putting in additional protections against privacy breaches. But once again, it's the real question is is does he really understand the problems? I guess we're gonna find out after 'execution. I still kinda wonder how Facebook is is still able to operate given the via. Version of the consent decree with the US the penalty should exceed even even Facebook's renewed valuation. So it's say this is going to be an interesting time for Facebook pull it they've got another large breach. You know, the US give them the pass the Europe Europe is increasingly anybody a pass. So it's it's going to be it's going to get more painful if they don't get the sex. This is something very much in motion. So we're in the thick of it. That is the latest. That's all we can do rob Enderle. Thank you as always. Why pleasure? That's it for the tech news briefing reporting from the newsroom in New York. I'm Tanya boost does thanks for listening.

Facebook US Amazon apple rob Enderle New York Europe engineer Mr. Chen Russia Mark Zuckerberg Oregon China Toyota Jeon Harrison Ford
Marketers Live Sports Ad Spend, Twitch Ads on Amazon Advertising and OOH Ads in Q2 | Oct 13, 2020

Behind the Numbers: eMarketer Podcast

31:28 min | 3 months ago

Marketers Live Sports Ad Spend, Twitch Ads on Amazon Advertising and OOH Ads in Q2 | Oct 13, 2020

"So. Like the ad you know you're going to get that viewership on the game but a lot of times they're paying because there's a lot of coverage of advertising in the Super Bowl and a lot of chatter whether it's on the internet or in trade publications that I feel like your reach is much greater than just what you get from. A. It's Tuesday October Thirteenth Ross Oskar listeners welcomes conversation that covers all the digital media advertising immersed tech news is the behind the numbers daily an email to podcast sponsored by new star Marcus. Johnson. Your host executive producer and I'm joined by three folks we have with us our senior analyst covering TV and video is Ross Benesch Marcus. Hello there also joined by forecasting analyst Eric Trump thanks for having me hey chap and senior forecasting analysts Oscar a ROSCO joins the show. Thanks for having marks. Hey, buddy today's topic marketers spend on live sports ads. As marketing dive notes quotes. Marketers have spent almost one hundred million dollars to advertise during national broadcast of live games as professional sports return to TV after temporarily suspending seasons due to the pandemic over five hundred advertisers spent that amount during the NBA MLB an NHL Games according to research from. Media. Raider close quote let's go through some of these leagues including the NFL of course but we start with the NBA so Jimmy Trainer of sports illustrated lists the numbers for the first couple of games in the NBA finals, and so we're going to take just the first three games for now. So I we games the NBA finals between the heat and a my Lakers game One seven point four million viewers game to six point one million viewers game three five point nine million viewers. So basically, Games one, two, three, it was between six to seven million viewers and he knows that those numbers are for game two three are all time lows for the NBA Finals for context says game to took place on a Friday night the NBA Never Plays Finals Games on Friday nights because viewership for Friday's is terrible and game three to place on a Sunday night going head to head with the NFL which obviously normally doesn't do. He says, the real issue is that the first game drew seven million viewers last year's finals between the warriors and raptors. Fifteen million viewers guys was he make these NBA finals numbers? Well, there's a ton of different things going on first off. As you mentioned, these Games are going up against the NFL they're going against up against Friday nights they're going up against. All these other sports including a the MLB playoffs as well. So there's just a lot of competition right now right college football. Yeah, and at the same time to receive increased cord cutting, you know there's fewer people who have access to pay TV that's required to watch these games. So there's really just a whole group of things and not to mention that we're in the middle. Of election and they're also going up against various you know debates and just general news stories as well. Right? Right. Yeah. For me it's a couple other things as well. I think it's definitely covid related just people's routines going used to be going to work coming home you know having dinner spending time with family watching the game everything is just been flipped and everyone's routines are. Just, so different now that it's people might be watching television when they can or when they're able to less. So you know about sitting down after meal and watching the big game at the end of the night something like that. So that's playing. That's a big part of it as well I. also think maybe you guys disagree with this but having no fans in the stadium. It just makes it feel like the Games aren't as important or there's something about it that might be turning people off a little bit. It's definitely lots compelling fans. Yeah. I'm curious what you think because a Lakers fan. So I'm going to watch it because they're in the finals. But if you're not a fan of the two teams you're watching for the playoff atmosphere right finals atmosphere. Missing a little bit for sure I. I noticed this I'm a big football fan just not having the the fans in the stadium for certain teams to get teams like the saints or the cowboys I mean it just doesn't feel the same. You know right there was some research on that Maggots has been research showing eight, thousand, nine percent of respondents to the survey said, they would enjoy watching sports played with no fans in the stands. So most said, they would enjoy it regards however in the beginning I remember when they were asked before sports came back. Would you prefer? Fans or not emotion I'm not watching it unless there are fans and then beloved league said we have to have no fans and said, okay, fine. I'll do it because I'm desperate for sports. So yeah, I think as we get closer to through the playoffs towards the finals of leagues, fans matter more and more. So I think it's a fair point I mean it's any live event. The US Open ship was down pro wrestling viewership is down like Oscar said it without the fans if like you're kind of watching a scrimmage, it doesn't seem like you're watching like the NBA finals. And there's a few other things too I want to add one of them is like the in particular it's Kinda hard to like get the season when you have the season going and you stop it for like a few months and then it comes back a weird altered form in MLB like it's only sixty games this year instead of one, sixty two. So there's just Not The buildup the playoffs usually get monster ratings compared to the regular season. 'cause there's a build off you're watching the wild card race or you're watching the playoff race for like multiple months, and you have all these great players who are playing with some of them have opted out. There's a lot of weird stuff going on that like I feel like there's like ten. Different reasons why the sports viewership is down and People WanNa Kinda single out the NBA but it's really across basically every league and it'll be kind of parse out because of the regional sports networks in less national TV ratings but basically, sports ratings are down ton of nuance. That is yeah. I mean also kind of touched on this with God's to people's schedules change but. Ross. Umeda points me area where email back and forth saying that the way people watch things have changed normally you want with people. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. You're not going to watch football with your buddies bar as he says, the fact for sure my girlfriend doesn't like really want to watch sports at me so I watch it lasts if I can't go happens to meet to. Really I was actually gonNA bring up exactly what you brought up. There's no co viewing now there's no parties. There's no you know just watching these things at a bar and you know having a beer wall, the game's going on. So that has to also factor in as well a ton. So I'm a baseball fan I would say I watch baseball. If my team the dodgers make the playoffs and then I typically don't watch them that much because they always lose you really like. Don't you do indeed. Yeah you. Have to have no choice for a secret reason, I won't tell you later on in life but they were saying about you mentioned about the condensed sixty game baseball season and I was wondering baseball fans I, know there's a couple of guys who follow baseball here is that made it more attractive or less attractive because it sixty games as opposed to was at one, sixty, two you getting Extended playoffs there's more teams in the playoffs the normal it feels like similar to American football. When reason they're so popular is because there are so few games and so every day matters that much more wash your guy's opinion on baseball the season in the new format as a baseball fan to be honest with you. I like the longer season because it's kind of difficult to watch single game. From start to finish, but it's really easy for me at least to. Watch parts of games over the course of the season. So maybe just have it on the background. I'm a very passive baseball view or at least during the regular season, and then you get Kinda start again to these story lines where. The Yankees First Baseman is hurt but they have a new backup who is doing really well, and he's on a streak and maybe it'll take a while for pitchers to figure out you know his weaknesses and it kind of goes on and on and on. Whereas in the shorter season, you just haven't had those same kind of longer terms I'm using the term story. Lines yeah. I totally agree the Eric actually for me at least then for many fans baseball's so much about the numbers and statistics. I, mean you know to a certain extent but it is such a long season you you are looking for trends. Our pitchers Er as doing seasonal to some guys are better in the summer than they are in the cooler climates batting averages. It's definitely injuries as well. Part of that is being missed, and that's no disrespect to what the MLB day and had to do i. do think you know I. It's different way of viewing the season but that big aspect of baseball it was definitely missed this NBA. Playoffs up during prime time not up, not much during day games the number of US over over the playoffs down some. Different ways though if you look at the pent up demand, how much people wanted the sport back, they really did number of people who into MBA Games over the twelve days since play resumes the couple of weeks when they came back forty, seven, million, fifty percent higher than those who chewed injuring the I twelve days of the season and that's coin to neo sin. If you look back over the last couple of decades since two thousand, the NBA playoffs typically average north south of fifteen million viewers. May Playoffs About fifteen million peaking at twenty million for the warriors. cavs battles in two thousand, sixteen, Seventeen when cows one, twenty sixteen and then joined the team and the war is won twenty seventeen is now a seven million. So it is down a fair amount Ross. You'd also been reading some speculation that some of this is due to I love the political commentary or social movement stuff that you're seeing as povey NBA. A lot of chatter on twitter and like in local newspapers like the columnist for the Nebraska. Hometown paper that my parents read labs about this a lot. But I I just don't really buy into that because the ratings are also down in these other sports. It's a convenient way to to say, oh, they're doing something I don't like they're making a stand therefore they're taking but we've already laid out about eight or nine reasons why all sports are being affected right now not just the NBA but. That's something that's happening in sports media. Twitter's you see in that accusation a lot I mean, the election as a whole saw data point earlier that said that the two thousand sixteen election there was a fourteen percent drop in NFL ratings at Tony Sixteen that was pretty much the main sport at that time. So you know politics I think the election as a whole is definitely has always had an effect kind of so maybe we should give it a twenty twenty, a little bit of pass. The. Pandemic, news. meteoroid on state was showing that most top brands that advertise with the NBA. NHL Mlb. Games ready to continue their marketing activities. Once things came back but NFL Games made up forty seven of the top fifty, forty seven out of fifty of a top telecasts last year according to Nielsen data cited by CNBC. So this is the NFL season viewership Ronnie a couple of weeks into the season but NFL's ratings for the twenty twenty season. We're down just five percents year on year with viewership increasing each week leagues overruled deliveries through week three. So week one through three average to about fifty million viewers representing a five percents year on year. Percents your thoughts on how the NFL's done so far I mean that five percent dip isn't too far off from the expected dip in total pay-tv households. You know obviously not one to one, but it's kind of interesting that they're pretty close. Yeah. Well, I mean on that Eric Speaking of pay TV. What are we seeing with regards to court cussing because sports that huge factor with people with The Gospel. Subscribing to pay TV the most important factor according to a study from March to June by a media consulting firm, we mentioned the civic science things that news is actually the main reason thirty percents of that three thousand Samples Sang. News live. Sports had twenty two percents of bit behind that. But regardless is this sore it's news. Both have been affected this year someone in some way shape. Or form the Sheriff People Eric who said they cut the cord from q two to three coin to this study from civic science went from thirty to thirty, five percent. So a slight increase, the share of those considering cussing tick down the bit how do we expect to the current sports scheduling to affect code cussing cord cutting is really driven by a number of things including sports scheduling I would. Say That's actually more of a minor thing to keep in mind but you know we are expecting about a seven and a half percent dip in traditional pay TV households this year an even when you add back in Kinda, the VP's your Hulu with live TV's sling TV's YouTube TV's digitally delivered players were still expecting about a six percent drop in total. Okay. There's definitely such a shift to. Streaming live sports right and this is hitting close to home because I'm currently really excited about international break for soccer all the countries play each other and it's just unbelievably difficult to watch games. Now, are there just you know on so many different services and so you know there's definitely that shift to delivering sports over the top like that. It's new revenue streams for these services, but you know things like Fubo TV and. Eric ready mentioned slaying but even things as specific as UFC fight pass for you have see in MLB TV there's so many ESPN plus so that's definitely an emerging trend there. So, cable just a nice. It's just nice kind of catch all. The. As if you leave cable behind, you still have to do the research of can I'm surprised lobby services aren't marketing themselves like showing if you're an NBA fan, we've got it all if you're in the NFL fan we. Need to watch those games because that's still within the bundle though I mean, you know if you want to watch all the Games you can watch on cable. You're still going to need to get the MVP D, which is going to cost you just as much almost as traditional cable. And is knowing like true over the top you know Ala Carte sports and there's a ton of reasons for that to be honest like even like ESPN pluses very limited MLB TV's very limited. Yeah. It's just it's tough out there especially for you know someone who might WanNa Watch all sorts of sports you just have to sell out money or keep paying for cable, and then you definitely have to add different tiers of channels through. These are the guys that I can't get rid of cable yet right I mean who does Say who live sports. Now, big marketing campaign that they've got my question is which one's well, they're just the same ones as well. You'd get on cable it's essentially a digitally delivered cable package with Hulu, right but some of them don't write some of them won't have some of the packages don't have ESPN or at least they didn't in the beginning of John More now all the does they don't have like some of the more specific ones like I think NFL networks not on. Hulu. Live TV but they have okay on. ESPN for a while it does now. ESPN TNT ABC like do you have the channels which are gonNA hose bounce cable? Do you have the CBS Fox sports that host of football I guess a lot of them do now but still some element of research to make sure that they've got the challenge that you want at Youtube TV just dropped a bunch of regional sports network yeah. They dropped allowed the ones who carry a baseball, which is funny because baseball season's over you know at least in terms of what the RSN's have. So there's nothing really air I. Know they dropped Yes for example also okay. Second Matt to football for a second the ratings for the NFL's opening weekends were down three percents from twenty nineteen we showed up at three weeks down five percents but yet not terrible or things considered Jensen wants. To pivot to the Super Bowl, for a second, we'd cover this news before but I want to get your guys opinions on this Oh Viacom CBS looking for around five and a half million dollars for each thirty second commercial spot during the twenty twenty one super bowl coins the wall. Street. Journal Shade off of Twenty Twenty s price for thirty seconds of Super. Bowl at times the price is pretty much the same, but it's down a fraction. From that price, the average price of an in game super bowl ads has increased every year since two thousand eight overseas is a very different time, very different year, but it's still important. I think looking ahead to the super bowl because of the size of audience that it does provide what are your thoughts at this point about the price of super bowl commercials advertises commitments, something like Super Bowl, and what kind of audience it could potentially. Rack up more of the benefit of a super bowl conversation happens around it. So like the ad you know you're GonNa get that viewership on the game but a lot of times they're paying because there's a lot of coverage of advertising in the Super Bowl a lot of chatter that comes like whether it's on the internet or in trade publications that I feel like your reach is much greater than just what you get from the game People who really don't care about the game end are excited to watch the Super Bowl just to see the ads. It's maybe the only event around the in the year that leads to that kind of sort of viewing. But Yeah, the Super Bowl is completely exempt from everything else that's going around does not surprise me that prices are higher than last year riot. Do we think the Super Bowl is going to happen though who? Asked the question that Are asking right and they're saying they want a ways out they want to be able to back of those super bowl commitments, which seems as though CBS is saying that you can you will be able to, but they're making sure that they can just in case it doesn't go ahead. I mean we've seen some of Kobe Cases Star to pop up in the NFL starting to delay games and push them back but the NFL. Money beyond spending this is these numbers from Kantar in the Wall Street Journal TV AD bending regular season for the NFL was a regular season three and a half billion postseason one and a half billion thus basically five billion college football in second place distant second just over a billion so they're going to do everything they can to keep the NFL alive, right. And and make sure the continues NFL also fortunate. They have one game a week like MLB had a ton of cancellations with the MARLINS and the cardinals one I. Think the cardinals had played like ten fewer games than everyone at the beginning of the season but you know those teams are playing four games a week sometimes so right I fell your GonNa. See some. Cancellations and some you know major players get Cova but I think it'd be a little easier to avoid light major disruption because you are so spaced out with your games right and I. Guess There's only one final game. There's no series. Yeah. This new series of getting my concern is that you know the Tennessee titans have now break right now now only can they? Not. Play, Games. But everyone else who they're scheduled to play with or going to be forced to take by you have an outbreak. It seems it with the New England. Patriots were a couple players have covid. They just played. You know the champion Kansas City. We'll see if they contract anything I. Mean you're talking about a relatively small league with one playoff team being. Playoff team from last year being sidelined for part of the euro already men potentially two more teams being significantly. Impacted as well, and that's what we know. Right. Now, obviously more can come out soon. Yeah, and looking at College Football Panic twenty-one College Football Games Thomas Recording and been canceled or postponed. Choose the players testing positive for the corona virus that was questions whether they be able to bring back all of the kind of power five college football conferences they have. Now all agreed to resume some sort. Of Modified play this season, all of them they have a modified seasons right there. Some kind of shortened version. Yeah. A lot of non conference games got NFL slush. You're talking about college football right? Yep Yep Yep College football. Yeah. Like pretty much those big conferences are playing very, very few non conference games. Most of them aren't playing any non conference games. Even like the big twelve which reduced its schedule less than other conferences, they're still not doing like three non conference games and the realistically be some cancellations along the way. Now I don't think anyone's going to like play their full slate schedule, right? Yeah. Lost you already happened cancellation. What am I able? Yeah. Yeah. They've been handful. Bringing in is the mentioned overbuilding one point seven, billion in national and spot TV AD revenues coincidence Kantar media in second and back to the Super Bowl for a second. Yeah. Tim McGovern President of Optimum Sports Sports Marketing Group Com group saying that there is no plan B when it comes to super bowl hundred, two, million viewers tuned into the twenty. Twenty. Super Bowl on Fox network and its digital platforms for last year Super Bowl and I think CBO. Has of the top twenty most watched shows ever mash finale is the only one that breaks into those top ten. It also could be one of the few big events. This season these next day twenty, twenty one is the pandemic seems to have affected the Oscars. That's being pushed back as well as a bunch of other events, Fox Super Bowl, AD revenue, half a billion dollars. So Yeah. Definitely. Money the to be able to make sure that they pull in and make sure that advertises can spend. There was some country on what's going on with NHL. Sang that the stacking of NHL Games throughout the day up to six. Sometimes likely helped build the audience there Dan Loving executive vice president of CEOS FM NBC sports. Group said, it's kind of like a march madness. Almost people are loving in getting hockey whenever they want however the first three rounds of the Stanley. Cup Playoffs were down twenty eight percent year-on-year. The finals was down fifty five percents guys any thoughts on hockey and just not Being a march madness I felt that way with the NBA I literally watched every single game of the playoffs for from everything but I will say about the NHL is at the do you have smaller audience than many of these other sports leagues, but those fans are very engaged for the most part. So that makes complete sense to me that you'll have significant people who will watch every single hockey game all day. If it's six or seven games and just add the few casual fans likely to potentially be watching other sports at the same time. Right. So that's likely why we have that fifty five percent drop in the ratings from last year. So that's that's the story I think with NHL. So to close out the lead story, guys to advertising spending from March through May to Kline's blind nearly fifty seven percents compared to similar period loss jake year, into standard media index demand did pick back up in June Ross TV and video analysts what your thoughts on kind of the State of TV advertising the minute. In the context of the live sports in us that we've been talking about. Yes. So TV Advertising GonNa take a pretty strong hip like you said, you know sixty billion. Previously expected closer to seventy billion new sports outside a lot I. think it's really just cord cutting with bad advertiser in. kind of around the industry, the up fronts are finally starting to wrap up. But those are also significantly down it just a lot of people trying to figure out how to reorient themselves. You know a lot of innovations being forced into a tight window. Right so we got time for the story. Thanks gents. I'll see you guys in the other side of the ad reads I. Quit Message From Las Vegas a new start, and then we'll be back with another news. During a time of unprecedented disruption, we could all use a bit of guidance join Usta brave new wells twenty twenty, which is a brand new annual summit where they'll tackle some of today's tough marketing challenges and you know what? It takes to be a true the high impact future forward. Grand. You can register for free a brave. New Star slash marketer. This brave New Orleans starts any USTA slash. Folks whip back today in other news facebook just announced that it would temporarily holds all poets go ads in America after the election twitch is now selling entry on Amazon's advertising platform and advertising was down forty five percents in Q. Two. Story One facebook just announced that it would temporarily halt social issue electoral and political ads in America after the election polls close on November. Third Facebook said it is doing this to try and reduce the confusion about the results of the election. The bylaws for at least a week for facebook advertisers know when it has been lifted. Your thoughts you cover advertising for us. What do you think you know I? It's a no brainer to be honest with you. I think that the issues around facebook advertising facebook political advertising are fairly overblown for the most part but as much as they can you know kind of remove themselves from this whole conversation after the election where there's probably not a whole lot of money to be made anyway makes a ton of sense good comment from BBC news cyber reported Joe Tidy, and he says how much of a problem was paid for advertising really going to be at that stage in an election. So yeah, I think overblown is fair in. The Best of times, and now this is going to be post-election. So yeah questions of how big of a deal with this really is in September Google made a similar move Jeff Horowitz of the Wall Street Journal noted that the new announcement facebook drew praise from civil rights groups that have criticized facebook for failing to police voter suppression intimidation efforts in September facebook noted that were not allowing you political ads a week before the election existing ones can still roll through and it wouldn't allow premature election victory ads story to recent walk. Oscar explains that quote Amazon is bringing twitch inventory into the mainstream nosing that the game streaming service is now sending imagery on Amazon's. Platform as ad week explains by as canal by twitch audiences alongside Amazon Amazon. Of course, owns twitch Rossio thoughts it makes a lot of sense for Amazon to bring twitch together with this other offerings. Amazon's really building out a pretty big video ad business right now with you know every the negative fire TV their DSP IMDB TV. To have twitch option, it just seemed very sensible coins, extreme elements and ask nor G G time spent watching gaming contents onto it jumped fifty percents for much tim just march to. April in two thousand and twenty we estimated twitch would reach Costa thirty eight million viewers in the US this year but are updated figures throw an extra four million on the pile reaching forty, two, million twitch viewers and twenty twenty that's up from thirty three last year's thirty, three to forty, two in just a year's time, which is non gaming categories of seen. Huge growth is live events were canceled musicians artists performed at to find a new home music and performing arts viewership nearly quadrupled from April. Twenty. Nineteen. To April Twenty, twenty viewership of that. Just a category also spiked story three the Advertising Association of America Oh Aaa said the out of our -tising was down forty five percent in q two and down twenty five percents in H-. H. One despite this thirty one of the top one hundred out of advertisers had increased the out of home spend from Q two, thousand Nineteen Oscar. Your thoughts on this album advertising number being down forty five percent in q two well yeah it's it's great timing actually because we've. Just. Updated our own emarketer out of home at estimates. Yes. Exactly and you know whenever I can mention any of our numbers I do but you know this. So the source of the Outdoor Advertising Association of America is is a major indicator for us, and so what we have is a full year estimate estimate and we believe that overall o h out of home advertising will decline about twenty two percent in twenty twenty and it's it's really no surprise I mean when we consider just dependent make affecting. People going out essentially the impact on closures everywhere retail stores to malls with we just talked about sports or Arenas, and stadiums, bars and restaurants even just public transportation less driving. It's no surprise that these budgets might be shifting somewhere else probably digital. So these numbers are not surprising by any means. So as we know digital out of home is is a major driver of the total category but according. To the Outdoor Advertising Association of America Digital's out of home share of total out of home actually drop to only twenty percent in q two from thirty percent share adding Q. One. But that's likely because digital transactions like these advertisers can much quicker cancel vs versus just your traditional campaigns. So this is likely why we've seen this drop but again, the digital out of home category is really what's driving. Just all of out of home and so yeah, we'd had our for mount spending in the US fooling percent Oscar you saying that these numbers are going to be a lot worse now and Russia mentioning because we've got more data than we had back in June when we lost update whose figures. Yeah. When we first update them, we make a little bit more of a projection the effective out our home hat on these companies, it takes a little while. To show up because out of home advertising, usually sold months in advance of when a campaign ran. Right. So the first quarter after the pandemic didn't really give a full picture. We wanted to be kind of conservative to not overstate things. But now that we've had more time to pandemic has been pretty lengthy and we don't really have an idea of when it's going to end. We revise them downward. Okay. Yeah. We've plugged in some some Q. Three numbers. To, give you a revised figures on advertising, check them out if you're a pro subscribe, the Oh aaa also noted that quote due to the nationwide closes a movie. Cinema and spending reported in Q. Two of the place base locations was the impacted by significant closures limited operations such as retail stores, shopping malls arena stadium is restaurants and bars and health clubs. Close quote you can check out Rossi's US dish to advertising spending twenty, twenty, covid nineteen dampens outdoor advertising reports on emarketer pro just notes that the numbers in there have been updated you can catch an email to pro not now surely in the next. Week or so they'll. They'll pair on the platform on my nose numbers will be a lot worse than before as we got time for for this episode. Thank you so much to my guests. Thank you to Ross Bass Farkas. Thank you, Eric. Thank you. Thank you, Oscar. Thanks for having me. Thank you to everyone listening. If you WANNA say hi emails at Kasey Mocked Dot Com you can listen tomorrow for the behind the numbers add platform show. PODCAST sponsored by new. Style

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Election 2020: What the TV Ads Blanketing Iowa Tell Us About the Race

WSJ What's News

12:33 min | 1 year ago

Election 2020: What the TV Ads Blanketing Iowa Tell Us About the Race

"Democrats argue that president trump abused his power and should be removed from office. They spend a long time going through previous cases and talk about it. This is when the abuse of power has been considered teachable and our weekly election twenty twenty series continues with at TV ads. Blanketing Iowa ahead of next. Next week's caucuses over five hundred ads a day that are going out into Cedar rapids in Des Moines and Davenport. Less the number of confirmed corona virus cases CZYZ continues to grow. This is what's news from the Wall Street Journal on Kim Gittleson. Let's get started now out before we take a closer look at the hundreds of Democratic presidential. TV ADS airing in Iowa. And what they tell us about the twenty twenty race. Here's what you missed Chinese unease officials. Now say that more than eight hundred people have corona virus and that at least twenty five people have died. Tens of millions of people in central China remain on on lockdown and Disney is temporarily closing. Its Shanghai Park. Were reporting that several drug companies are now rushing to develop vaccines for the virus but that testing in humans won't happen for at least several months. The personal computer isn't dead at least if Intel's results are anything to go by the chipmaker said fourth-quarter earnings benefited from an increase in PC shipments as well as demand for data center chips it also gave an upbeat forecast for the rest of the year. Sherston Intel rose around six percent in after hours trading. Thirty one point five million dollars. That's how much J. P.. Morgan CEO Jamie diamond took home. Last year primarily an stock awards. It's a boost from two thousand eighteen when he was the highest paid big bank boss in the United States. It's a crown. He's likely to keep though. Most big banks have yet to disclose their executive pay. Diamond has run J. P. Morgan since two thousand five Now our main story. It's Friday which means it's time for our weekly look at not twenty twenty presidential race today we're going to take you to Iowa where residents are being bombarded with ads from Democratic hopefuls according to Cantor C. Mag the capital Des Moines has been blanketed with five hundred ads a day on cable satellite and broadcast. TV Are Charlie. Turner has been finding out more from political reporter. The Chad Day who yes has been watching all of those odds so we don't have to Chad. The Iowa caucuses are a little more than a week away and that means a barrage barrage of TV campaign ads. How much money have the candidates spent on TV advertising in Iowa? Well so far. We've crossed the 60-million-mark And it's continuing continuing to climb. I wouldn't I wouldn't surprise me if we were to see possibly even eighty million By next week or you know as we near that Iowa caucuses starting. What's it's been the tenor of the ADS? The candidates of butted heads and debates and social media face to face. Have they used the airwaves to attack each other. You No we haven't seen that spill over into the TV advertising instead. They've really stayed away from attacking each other. We haven't found any evidence that there's even mentioned Another candidate You know no in their ads. And that's when we talked to people that watch advertising in Iowa they say it's not surprising because of the way the caucuses operate You know anytime that you were to attack a candidate You know that one of your rivals you are also possibly You know attacking their supporters. Who with the way the caucus work If you may be trying to woo ooh those supporters later on if their chosen candidate doesn't get meet a certain threshold And so You know they don't see much of an upside in trying to do negative advertising at this point and rather are sticking to bio ads things that are talking up their credentials Their ability to be president trump And really focusing on the policy. We'll give some examples. You know Candidates issues a couple of ads. Stick out one is Joe Biden is using an ad to not only attack president trump on You know trying to tear down obamacare but also tout his own credentials on healthcare. After having passed the law with with President Obama from the moment he took office Donald. Well trump is tried to destroy obamacare. No one is more determined to protect congealed by we're also seeing You know with Bernie Sanders There's a particularly particularly striking ad where it starts out with people around a gravestone. There are people dying in America because they cannot afford the outrageous cost of prescription drugs. In this country. We have government. You know what they're doing with these ads is they're trying to extrapolate and build off the policies that they're talking about on the campaign trail Wall not engaging with each other You know the the closest we see you know. There's a couple ads where they'll say like other candidates may say but they never mentioned the other candidates name or or contrast a a particular policy. Well you just mentioned Joe Biden Touting obamacare and that would seem to be an implicit dig sense sense Other candidates touted Medicare for all right so One thing it is notable in our our data that we've seen is that A lot of the candidates are talking talking about healthcare They're talking about it in different ways as you mentioned you know. Joe Biden is talking Yup obamacare and trying to build off that we are seeing Bernie Sanders talk a lot about Medicare for all in and his policies proposals for health care reform. One thing that we're not seeing though is Elizabeth Warren mentioned that instead You know we have not seen in a single ad where she's talking about healthcare instead she's focusing on a message of Washington is corrupt and trying to talk about how she would come in and Clean House when we have a government that works for the rich and the powerful and leaves everyone else behind its corruption pure and simple. You know. It's interesting to see kind of this. These dynamics six of what the candidates are talking about and also what they're not talking about in the the ads that they are you know basically trying to use their closing argument before the Iowa caucuses. Well another candidate candidate Chad. That's polled well in Iowa is Pete Buddha judge. What's been the tenor of his ads? Most of the people to judge ads have featured him You know clips of speeches that he's given that are either talking about returning helping people who've lost their jobs in manufacturing as I traveled through Iowa all these communities to remind me of my own hometown town a city that had an amazing industrial heyday but then corporations greed and recklessness brought it to. It's knees you see kind of the differences France's in the different ads where His feature a lot of of him speaking in front of people talking to voters whereas in other candidates ads. You're seeing more of either either You know kind of the Voice of God narrator or the candidates addressing the camera directly and then talking about their policies. What about Amy Klobuchar Chemical? Shari's talking talking about her ability to be able to win In a in red areas she really doubts her ability to win in Minnesota and win counties. That voted for trump but then voted for her and talking about her ability to be able to have some crossover appeal When it comes to moderate voters will TV ads like these help swing the race race? Are they likely to have a big influence on. How I owens vote you know the thing about TV advertising in politics particularly right now is that you have to do some and You know do you get your name out there But it's probably not going to be something that you know unless there's some blockbuster add that also that would probably break into the news. You the you know conversation They're probably not going to sway the race. it's more about it particularly in Iowa it's about facetime Being out on the campaign trail talking to voters Iowans are very very particular About making sure the candidates Show their face And that they they see them and hear them and get to know them. If you have subjects or angles that you're curious about regarding the twenty twenty race you can email us at what's news all one word wsj.com or tweet us at. WSJ PODCASTS podcasts. You can find all of our election. Twenty twenty coverage up on WSJ DOT COM on to markets. Have you ever heard of Rhodium. It's a precious metal that strips pollutants out of exhaust fumes that makes it a key component donut for car manufacturers who need to hit stricter emissions targets in Europe and Asia. That's one reason why it's price has surged by sixty five percent in in this year alone making it. The world's priciest precious metal are resident. Rhodium expert Joe. Wallace has more while as you say. Rhodium is really key. Ingredient combining factors as they try to meet emission restrictions particularly in China and the European Union. Because it's using catalytic converters which convert toxic is it gases but she wouldn't want to breathe in like monoxide into nitrogen water and at the same time it's demand is really rising supplies radium quite tight. There's not much which go round rounded precious metals a rare matchel minus certainly wants to raise output because they mind Rhodium as a byproduct of palladium and platinum and platinum price. In in particular quite weeks they don't want to flood the platinum market with with more metal. So what happens from here. I mean most traders. Don't think can keep on rising at this pace because it's going up so fast they do think writing prices will remain pretty high because these types our mission signed is a hates estate which means demands really gonNA remain pretty strong from from the car industry. And here's what else were paying attention to today. Democrats will have a third and final day to present their case for impeaching president trump to the senate. Yesterday they argued that the president abused his office. And and that even though that isn't a criminal offense. It's an impeachable one our political reporter Andy. Dornan has more on what to expect. Today they are expected to do really against the details of the second article of impeachment which focuses on of Congress president trump the trump administration generally did not comply. Hi with Subpoenas the house issued a throughout the fall for documents and Witness testimony relating to their investigation into President Trump's request for investigations from Ukraine men. So they're expected to somewhat similarly go through kind of the legal thinking behind the article of impeachment and why why they think that Congress needs to the constitution have the ability to receive documentation and witness testimony from the executive branch and then also get into some of the factual the actual facts the substance of the of what of what they said peachable. President trump has repeatedly denied wrongdoing in. His legal team will begin their defense on Saturday. We'll have all the latest for you and our afternoon edition also in Washington today. President Trump plans to address an annual rally of antiabortion demonstrators. It would be the first in person appearance by a sitting president at the march for life in its forty seven year history. History finally good evening. I'm Jim Lara. Jim Lehrer of the PBS. CBS News Hour died at the age of eighty five yesterday a frequent moderator of presidential debates. He was known for his fair minded and in-depth approach to journalism He served as an inspiration for many aspiring broadcasters yours truly included so I want to leave you with some of his rules for good journalism. Do nothing I cannot defend cover right and present every story with the care I would want it. The story about me assume there is at least one other side. I'd or version to every story assume the viewer is smart and is carrying and as good a person as I am assume the same about all people on whom I report and the last one and finally I am not in the entertainment business. That's what's news from the Wall Street Journal. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.

Iowa President Trump president Joe Biden Wall Street Journal Des Moines Bernie Sanders China reporter executive Intel Medicare President Obama Chad CBS United States Kim Gittleson
ANTIFA Plane Caravans - 9/1/2020

Quick News Daily Podcast

15:56 min | 5 months ago

ANTIFA Plane Caravans - 9/1/2020

"Hello and welcome to the Quick News daily podcast where I give you the facts, I no. Click bait stories just real news that matters to real people. Today is Tuesday September first and thanks for trusting me with your news. For the first time I think maybe ever I actually had more stuff recorded yesterday, the night could fit into twenty minutes. So we're going to be revisiting some of that. Also, we'll be talking more about trump strokes since the plot just thickened with that rumor and I'll get into more corruption with the postal service. It's going to be another bright sunshiney episode of Quick News daily. So strap yourself in, let's get caught up. We'll start with postal service update because there's really not much to it on the surface level. It just makes everything that's happened so far make more sense in a new filing with the Commonwealth, of Virginia State Corporation Commission it was revealed that for the Senate Leadership Fund Super Pac, which is essentially controlled by Mitch McConnell and has assets of one hundred, thirty, million dollars. One of the directors listed for it is none other than Robert M Duncan Chairman of the United States Postal Service Board of. Governors isn't that great quick refresher. The USPS Board of governors is responsible for hiring the postmaster general who is now Lewis Joy and would also be responsible for removing joy. So the guy who has been tampering with the postal service to benefit trump republicans was hired by one of the leaders of Mitch McConnell superpac what an amazing coincidence I mean I'm just thoroughly shocked in other corruption news we learned today that the IRS chief who has so far refused to release trump tax returns and putting. Their by trump himself has made hundreds of thousands of dollars renting out trump properties throughout his time in office. This IRS Commissioner is named Charles Reading in rigs personal financial disclosures for the last two years show making one hundred thousand to two hundred, thousand dollars a year from two units at Trump International Waikiki, which he bought fifty percents taken back in two, thousand six. So again, maybe this will make the regular news maybe it won't but just another instance of showing how deep the corruption actually goes. Let's take a look at some closer analysis of some investigations by the FBI compiled by an attorney asks for WHO's responsible for the looting, the riding the violence, this lawyer, Seth Abramson on twitter. He's authored some books about the trump era. He's an attorney and through these sixteen sources that he posted in this twitter thread, he pieced together all the people who have been deemed responsible for the looting thriving the violence in the FBI has said that those who are responsible include The biglou boys who are trumpets proud boys, trumpets, militias, trumpets, anarchists, political organized crime a political no party affiliation. So they're not an either side those who are not responsible black lives matter who are with the progressives and Antifa anti-fascists who aren't even a real group. It's actually just like the catch all term the right uses for people they think on the left are causing violence or causing destruction. It's just a catchall term. So yeah, a political and trumpets who are responsible. there. Are these sixteen sources in it is from the FBI. So the next time you hear about like both sides and violence, not quite even the FBI doesn't think so. A. Twitter Account that specializes in monitoring campaign TV advertising buys. So they tweet whenever campaign buys commercials are takes planned advertising down announced that the Biden campaign is buying TV advertising in Minnesota starting tomorrow originally, they are planning on starting next week the eighth, but apparently the polling getting a little tight there. So they decided to start early Justin. My Gut because I'm a pessimist that freaks me. Out when they decided to start moving things up to polling, isn't that recent at least the stuff that's publicly available it's from the nineteenth is the most recent one. So this might be coming from some internal polling. The Biden campaign has done, but this combined with a reader email that the bulwark shared from a listener in Wisconsin seems like it might not be great news this listener mail was. Talking about the huge abundance of trump signs in rural. Wisconsin, like I'm talking not even a Biden sign in insight and I, can pretty much confirmed that around here where I live as well. The readers concerned that Biden not visiting here means that trump has all the momentum and just plain old visibility, which is the same mistake that Hillary made I really hope that Biden comes here at. Some point he was supposed to you today but canceled in favor of going somewhere else later in the week I think I hope they're watching this and taking it into account. But at the same time in the April elections, the Liberal Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice won by ten points over the conservative one and the conservative guy was less openly controversial than trump. So really who knows at this point? Let's revisit that stroke story for a second in a book by The New York Times is Michael Schmidt, which was released today new information was learned that Vice President Mike Pence was put on standby temporarily assume the powers of the presidency when trump made that unannounced unscheduled trip to Walter Reed in I guess the says November Twenty nineteen I remember did as December yesterday however, I think we may have to be a bit careful with his new reporting because the only source that Schmidt gives is that quote I learned he doesn't name a specific source or you know. Where that came from that he learned about the vice president being put on standby, but it does add another layer of this this whole mastery I guess the reason the vice president was put on standby to take over four trump is in case of a situation where trump had to undergo a procedure that would require him to be put under anesthesia or sedated in some way much like when George W Bush underwent his colonoscopy. Now, there were reports floating around out there that there was details about a cerebral event like stroke in the book but Schmidt himself. has come out and said, that's not in there at all. It was just online users that are trying to connect the dots again like I said that's kind of what I'm leaning towards nowadays. But of course, I have no evidence because they won't release the real reason that he went to Walter Reed that day I will say one more thing. There's a Lotta people jumping all over Schmidt for not releasing the book sooner or these revelations like literally ten months when this happened in his a pretty big deal to have the president of the United States have to. Be. Replaced because of a health event by the vice president, you think that would be something that we should know about but the scheduled release date was today. So it would have come out in time for this election and frankly the closer to the election that it comes out the better because we just don't have an attention span nowadays like it is very rare for this Walter Reed trip to be mentioned on the news anymore just because like there's just so much to be outraged about that. It's really hard to pick which one we should be focused on. So, trump still bouncing around trying to find out if Joe Biden was on drugs and that's why as performances have been so good if he's just a puppet for the left in AOC and Bernie. Sanders or if he's effectively in anti Christ coming for everything you own and letting moms run the streets. Well, his latest claim is that Biden is being run from the shadows in. Let's take a listen and like dimension because he's not controlling anything. Controlling Rolling Biden strings is it former Obama? Of People that are in the dark shadows, people that what does that mean that sounds like conspiracy theory dark show example that you haven't heard of the people that are on the streets there people that are controlling the streets we had somebody get on a plane from a certain city this weekend and in the plane, it was almost completely loaded with with thugs wearing these dark uniforms, black uniforms with gear and this, and there there are a plane whereas. I'll tell you time but I I it's under investigation right now but they came from a listen I'm not saying the long pause he takes before saying thugs and then describing their uniforms is black means anything at all while I'm just not saying that yet but listen to this completely loaded with with thugs. Okay. Okay. So this morning before leaving to hey, Wisconsin great he had this to San the tarmac. About, this plot that you were referring what cost Blige. That's a lot of people gathering on a plane. Here. I could tell you that I could probably refer you to the person and they could do it. I'd like to ask that person who was okay but a person was on a plane. said that there were about six people like that person more or less. And what happened is the entire plane filled up with? The looters, the kids, the rioters people that obviously were looking for trouble. And I felt very uncomfortable on the plane. This would be a person you know. So I will see whether or not. I can get that person I. Let them know I'll see whether or not I get that person to speak to you but. This was a firsthand account. Of a plane going from Washington to wherever. and. I'll see if I can get that information for you. Maybe they'll speak you maybe they walk. Okay. I'm GonNa, say it now and Erin Rupar, who is a journalist for vox? said it I said it best. He said quote. So basically, black people boarded a plane headed for DC and one of trump's friends felt uncomfortable and quote. Yeah that's what it sounds like. This part here, there were about six people like that person more or less. They were like them more or less the entire plane filled up with them Donald when you said dark uniforms black uniforms. Does uniforms means skin because it's starting to some an awful lot like you might be meaning skin color. Honestly. This just reminds me of this entire sequence here from anchorman to let me ask you this house, the new head, Honcho. Well, Linda Jackson has a shelf full of Ami's is as tough as nails and Linda loves to win. Oh Hey, listen I want to introduce you to Ron Burgundy Linda, Jackson how are you? My Friend Ron? This is Linda Jackson. Hello Mr Burgundy. Oh. Black. Black Jesus to stop for. Terribly. Sorry. I don't know why can't stop saying. Black. The word black hello. Mr Pindi. Black Stop. Black. Black. Black. If I don't sit pass out. So I know that all of you are aware that the news community is laughing at what we're trying to do here twenty four hour news but that brought me in she's the best you see gentleman I don't lose this I feel like I need to clear the air please don't want to say on behalf of the entire news team we are huge supporters of all African Americans Iraq, Tan I remember the first African American I. Ever Saw African American. There you sure. Yeah. Absolutely hundred percent positive it isn't like. Fish and chips. Hey we're all the same on the inside stinky and pink when I was in high school me and my buddies sneak in the girls locker room. We picked up the girls in the shower and I'd look at all of them. No matter what color they were. So. She says, this is the worst meeting I've ever been. A black man follows me everywhere when it's sunny actually I. think that's your shadow brick. I Call Him Leon and if it's a cloudy day, what happens to lay off because home to shadow he's talked about his shadow. Okay. So, you have a black boss and is freaking you out a frigging. You're out a little bit. To be honest. Or just got a knife as I said on instagram to someone who commented on. I posted something exactly like this. I said it's not like there are smart racists actually I don't think there are because you just can't have those two things go together. But out of all of the dumb racists trump has to be one of the dumbest. All right folks that's all I got for you here today, I? Do want to talk a little bit about new feature I added to the show description. The show notes essentially I just made a survey that I'm pretty much never gonNA end again through Google, forms end, it allows you to give instant feedback to me. So in this Google form, it's an on Michigan you can rate the show one to five one being whoa don't do that again five being great keep doing that. Or like three in saying you know room for improvement I put in a little space for you to comment you know good or bad what she thought underneath the rating of course, and then there's also just a space for what episode you're listening to. Because you know you might not listen to episode on the day at airs and sets it never ends. So if you could. Just put the episode title in that question or least get it close if you don't copy and paste it out really appreciate that just so I know obviously what I did on that day and what exactly did on that day that wasn't necessarily popular or on the flip side was so great you had to comment about it either way I thought so little cool feature to. Get some more participation are fueling. Your Voice would be heard just always, WANNA leave the door open open door policy and of course, obviously, if you'd just rather leave her view on Pod chaser or apple podcasts, I put those Lincoln there as well. See can absolutely do that you don't have to review it twice unless you have something that you would specifically like me to here I. Guess in private because you know those other reviews are more public but I read them either way. So if you have feedback to give doesn't really matter where you give it to me, I'll just be looking in all the usual sites for it and trying to make the show better otherwise stay safe make your plan to vote fill out your senses and I'll see you back here tomorrow.

Joe Biden trump Mitch McConnell twitter Wisconsin FBI Trump International Waikiki Vice President Quick News Michael Schmidt USPS Board of governors IRS Walter Reed Google Ron Burgundy Linda United States Postal Service B Linda Jackson Robert M Duncan Virginia State Corporation Com
#1738 Case Study: NatureBox and the viability of the subscription model

Mixergy

1:06:03 hr | 1 year ago

#1738 Case Study: NatureBox and the viability of the subscription model

"Freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I'm the founder of mixer g where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses. When one big milestones for me with mixer g was actually charging my audience having a subscription service. And the reason it was a mouse donors for a couple of reasons before then everybody loved me like really they love me doing these interviews for free. I was breaking my back really doing it not making any money, they loved it. And then once I started charging and especially on a subscription basis. People are really frustrated in the comments all over the place where pretty pretty mean, the whole idea was information wants to be free. And then suddenly I saw it newspapers were charging the New York Times. I think came after me for charging their audience in the now every publication decided that they need to charge for something and good on them caught onto it a little bit late. But I'm glad they're doing it. So when I came to today's interview I was super excited. This is going to validate what I always believed, which is everything should be on the subscription basis, or every business should at least have it. And I was so prepared to like drive that point home through my. Guest. And then I started researching, and I saw an article where he's basically at the lay off a bunch of people company where he said, you know, this whole subscription thing that we've been going for. It's actually not it's not getting us to the finish line festers on crazy for it. We're not able to make the killing that Andrew Warner thinks we're making we're gonna sell individual products. Why what happened? And then why does he still have a subscription? How's it working some fascinated? All right. I should actually introduced guest before I introduced the concept should night. Gotham Gupta is the founder of naturebox. Naturebox is healthy and delicious snacks delivered right to your door reference. And I'm sure a bunch of times here mixture G interviews because I thought of them as a subscription service. It doesn't. I'm so glad that they're doing healthy snacks. I wanna find out what happened to the business started. How he's growing it how he's got sales at really are amazing before and after he made his change. We're gonna do it. All thanks to phenomenal companies. The first hates when I call them an Email marketing company, but I need to introduce them somehow and let you know that they do more than this. Do you wanna do Email marketing, I'm gonna tell you later why you should sign up for active campaign, and the second is a company that's been doing so much work with me that you people are saying why talk about them so much because works my audience. I guess it's called top towel. Tell you about them later to first Gotham good tabby here. Thanks for having me purchase. What's you're looking at? We just cut you off as being nice. What's your revenue, sir? What is your revenue at naturebox? So edgy. I mean what I can tell you is tens of millions of dollars in revenue. You know, we the businesses gone through a lot of ups and downs. But you know, we're a real brand millions of customers across the country. Those are sort of metrics that I can disclose tonight C at when I saw a Recode interview with you from March twenty a teen after you did a little bit of layoffs. I could've sworn that. They oh see what it is. It's sixty million in funding not sixty million in revenue, but at the time once you doing forty fifty million dollars in subscription. Yeah. It was a very healthy business. It is a healthy business. You know, we're we're kind of proud of where we we're. So just to be clear that. Yeah. That you just said to me is not yet. Andrew, you're. I'm confirming the number you just spit out. But it's like, yeah. Right. I I'm not trying to trap you into giving something that you don't want. But I don't want my audience think Andrew just got him. He gave the number when that's not what happened, right? I asked you was it round fifty six right age. And you said, yeah, I'm not gonna tell you, right. Not. Yes. Right. Ball. I'm okay with it. I think I've got a good sense of where the business is are you guys profitable? Now not profitable yet have made a ton of progress towards profitability. Okay. And is my characterization of what happened right that you started out as a healthy, snack company, focus on subscriptions. Now. You've changed to selling digital products with a subscription a healthy subscription component in my right. Yeah. I think you look injury would what we started out wanting to build great products and sell them to the consumer. When we started. We thought the right way to do that was via subscription. I think what we realized was consumers didn't care that. It was subscription that wasn't a value proposition to the consumer. It was great for the business -ality was consumers when they buy stacks. It's an impulse driven decision. Right. You don't sit around thinking about what you're gonna snack next. And you know, how many snacks you have in the pantry. And so we realized as we have start selling the product the way the consumer wanted to live product right late. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm kind of caught up in your business. Because. I do buy a lot of impulse next. But I never go online to buy impulse next. Would I line is healthy snack saying to myself next? I'd just had chips this morning chips or some other snack from Starbucks in my building earlier today. I now think next week the same issues going to happen. I better get some healthy snacks in the office. And when it comes to healthy snacks. That's the way. I think ahead of time. Not not the other way, am I uniquely in that way? I think you would be super unique O'Reilly the majority of Americans when they think about a snack. It's because they're hungry and they're trying to satisfy immediate need. And so, you know, the online component. What what we decided was subscription ended up. You know, we'd send this ox tear. You get the product, but it would just start piling up. Right. Because a lot of your snack consumption happens outside of the home. You might have already purchased next by the time the box got there at cetera. We thought look subscription isn't really value prop to the consumer. They're not buying it. Because it subscription the right? Because it's unique product could we take away the subscription barrier? A make it easy for the consumer to purchase and could that work as a business, right? Anat was really the these around moving away from subscription. Let's get an understanding of how you came up with this idea one of things that I read a few times. And I think you talked producer about was the euro BC's a kid I've seen photos of you allot, you don't strike me as someone who was ever overweight. How how big were, you know? I appreciate that. So I was about seventy pounds heavier than I am today. And throughout really growing up. So so throughout high school in even earlier I had terrible nutrition and eating habits. I ate a lot of junk food did all the things that people tell you not to do. Right. A drink sugary drinks. A lot of junk food candy at cetera on and then a light bulb turn on. I said I've really got to change my life. I started learning about nutrition cut all the sugary drinks out. All the junk food, all the candy and in six months, lost seventy pounds on pretty much maintained that weight ever since a six months, you're also working at venture firm general catalyst, and you threw them saw how businesses like like, the honest company. Yeah, we're doing what did you learn from watching them that helped inform your founding of naturebox will, you know, the the eye opening thing for me about the honest company was the way brands or being built today is so different than ten or twenty years. Right. If you think about what the consumer wants, they want things that speak to their values. Right. So they want things that are natural healthy, you know, just things that are more sustainable, right speak to the sort of values that consumers have these days. The second is the way you reach that consumer is dramatically different. Right. It's not as much TV advertising as is online and through a SEM Facebook advertising cetera and third is the way that you really build a reputation with the consumer has changed its through influencers now through online reviews things like that. And so I kind of looked at that and said, wow, like every brand is going to have to deal with the fact that the way you build a brand today so much different. And some you brands can sprout up and compete with every brand that you see on the the retail store shelf. And I had this passion around food is over combined. Those two things to come up with the idea for naturebox general catalyst think. Backed the honest company in twenty twelve right at the end of your time with them. You're there already for about eight years. What were you doing there? So, you know, I I was really lucky I joined general catalyst as an undergrad wallows in college. I spent a couple years interning for the firm and then joined them fulltime after graduation, and I was the youngest guy on the team. So I take it, you know, kind of anything that that I needed to get done. But primarily the job was to talk two thousand entrepreneurs year and surface, the most interesting ones so that we could go in and find Mesfin opportunity. How did you go? Find in talk to them. Yes. So, you know, all kinds of different things listening to at the time. There was much interest podcast, but reading the news right in seeing what companies reading talked about on the news going conferences, seeing what companies were presenting conferences, all kinds of different ways. And it was really kind of job. Right. Getting in front of the telling our story of what? General catalyst was all about hearing their needs and trying to figure out move away that we could add value. And so it was an amazing job. I talked to probably six or seven thousand entrepreneurs over the course of eight years there, which was just an incredible education. Like, I don't know anywhere else. You can get that that education. What did you learn I feel like I'd be really good at that? Because I loved talknet people having United it. I love it. The the downside is I love talking to people so much that I don't think that I process like I am not valuating more in the moment when Meyer bencher capitalist. Marc sue strife seen him. He's so good. He's from front benchers. He so good as he's talking to you really understanding you, but also being able to our ticky late to other people what he's understood about you and your business. I I'm guessing that just comes naturally to him. But also from talking and learning from so many businesses you've you've had you've had both of those. What did you learn from talking to people that you can share with us about how to process allies? Yeah. I mean. I think probably the biggest thing was you go into these conversations. And I try to do this today when I talked to an entrepreneur, you gotta go into these conversations, assuming that, you know, nothing right? Because I think if you have a belief in your mind of how the business should worker what the right strategy is in this market. You end up just turning off what ends up being really, creative novel ideas. Right. And so I try to go into conversations not assuming anything, right? I assume that I know nothing about the category. And I really just ask a lot of questions. Right. Everything from hey, how'd you come up with this idea? Like what drew you into this? Why is this strategy the right strategy, not this, you know, why this competitor competitor doing differently? So I think probably the one thing that I you know, I took away a lot from general catalyst there for a long time. The one thing is you ask a lot of questions, and sort of -ssume that, you know, nothing right? Like, so I can do that. I do that. But. Then in really, frankly, the assume that you know, nothing and be okay. Talking and asking questions that you should know the answer to it seems so easy. I watched so many conversations here in San Francisco there bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about. They're too afraid to to admit that. And as a result the conversation is a bozo conversation. It takes a little bit of guts to say. I actually don't understand what you mean by blockchain. I don't understand how this fits in an to an even if you know little bit to admit, the part that you don't own set of joint force in the part that you know. But so I don't wanna over. I don't want to overlook that. But when you're analyzing them, what are you looking for when you come into this with like this tourist mine? How do you know what to analyze to tell you who's going somewhere? And what idea makes sense? Yeah. I think you're looking at first principles, right? Your reasoning from first principles. You're looking for ideas and strategies that make sense, right? You're putting yourself in the in the shoes of the customer and saying, hey, if I was getting pitch this idea as a potential. Does this all make sense? Does it line up right on? I think you're looking for clarity in value prop, right? Does the entrepreneur? Can the entrepreneur explain what they're doing? And why it's important, right? You looking for for sort of also be ability for that entrepreneur to take people who might not have exposure to that idea or to that market and explain to them, right? Like get them excited about the company because at the end of the day, what that entrepreneur has to go out and do not just sell investors itself customer, sell us, etc. Cetera. And so I think those are some of the things that you're looking for when you have those conversations, you know, I also looking to see doesn't make sense in the world as I imagine it in five years. I, you know, from my perspective, I think nobody has a crystal ball would I look for is is the value proposition. Crystal clear, right. And even though I might not be the target demographic. Could I put myself in the shoes of the customer in understand? Why they would want to buy this. Okay. So you had an opportunity to see people do it. Well, do a poorly people get invested people. Not when it was time for you to pitch naturebox. You didn't just go out there and start to pitch it in talk about it. I don't think what ice on my research was a bunch of a bunch of articles about you talking about how how you tested tested before even talk to people in general catalyst. Absolutely, we so my co-founder night came up with this idea in the fall of twenty eleven and we thought, hey, we think this is cool idea. But we don't know if anyone else is gonna buy this, or is gonna think this is as cool ideas, we do, and we thought okay, how do we know test? This not knowing anything about food how to create a product anything like that. We said, well, the easiest thing we can do is put a landing page up hook it up to pay pal. See if people will go to the landing page, click on papal and from there actually give. Money. Right. And so we did that. And we started driving traffic to the badge within a weekend. We had a hundred people actually sign up and pay for their first naturebox. And this was a big moment for us because within a weekend, we have we felt like we had validation that other people like the idea on number one. But number two in probably the scariest part of this is like a hundred people had bought a product that didn't exist, and we didn't know how to make the product. Right. I am. And so that was really the scary moment where we said OSHA, we'd better like figure this out we either need to refund their money, or we got them himself thing. And when do the ASO being two kids that grew up in suburbs? We sat around thinking where can we get food and we looked in? We said, well, Costco. So we we drove to Costco, sold up two shopping carts of Kirkland brand. Snacks went back to my Arment repackage them into bags that said naturebox on them, and that was the first shipment so bags we actually printed out stickers that we stopped onto your bags of. It was very Janke. You know, like sort of the first box. I feel very bad for the people that bought that first box because furious will you know, they could purchase snacks Cosco. It wasn't anything unique. It probably took too long to get to them because we were literally packing. These things nights and weekends. Every night. We came over work. I'd just be packing backs was a subscription service. They were meeting to twenty bucks a month to get this healthy subscription. How did you get a hundred people where did you buy the ads? What was so mazing about your ads that worked where most people's add sock? Yes. Oh, my founders background was in online advertising. And so he actually kinda took the lead on basically creating Facebook ads at the time. There was no news feed. So these were right rail ads and to know newsfeed ads. That's right. There is no nice ads. Right, right. There wasn't newsfeed. But there was no ads in the newsfeed. And so he took the lead of creating right rail ads at had some catchy message about, you know, healthy snacks delivered to your door. Nutritious approve a lot of the messaging that we use the kind of communicating hyperbolic. I remember I was friends with Gabriel Weinberg founder of duck duck. Go. He bought some ads right rail ads on Facebook targeting his wife with a message that was directly appealing life, and she wouldn't click in. And he said, you know, these right realize are just not working. Yeah. Yeah. So so do yes. So to be clear we the cap on those initial customers. I don't remember exactly what it was. But it wasn't profitable customer acquisition right audit. The point was to get people to to see if people would write and it wasn't like crazy. We weren't spending like thousands of dollars for customer or anything like that. But the point was not that, you know, the customer acquisition stuff would be figured out on day one. It was more just to kind of validate the idea and see if people found this idea interesting enough to actually put their credit card down. Okay. Your co-founders Kenneth Chan he is still the chief marketing officer to stay right actually, Ken down a few years ago. But can is crunch base. Cans, kevin. I talk often and he's still a big supporter business. I see he is now native ads is the company that he's with. That's right. Okay. All right. Let me talk about my first sponsorship. We're talking about advertising. I think it's a perfect spot to talk about it. You know active campaign. I you don't even have old memories of them. Here's what I remember about active campaign was just around forever. Like, even the early days before all these like modern Email systems, they would just around and for a long time. I just didn't pay attention to them when it came to Email marketing because I said the old folk skies have been around, and then I'll be honest with you. They bought ads. I started looking into them. And I said really of updated themselves, in fact, not only their stuff like more modern Akkad think of a few that didn't update even though they were making good money. But what they did was they took all those Email marketing automation, tools that work for the bigger guys. And they simplified it, and they just stayed. The course just kept on adding simplicity, but stealing may not stealing ideas for other people. And so right now, the honestly do not like for me to call him an Email marketing company because they look dude we do other marketing techniques to like, for example, if somebody is on your website, and they cleave clicking on a specific sexual recite. Like, let's say if you guys naturebox at a section of your site that was just geared towards corporations you need to know that and not start messaging them with emails about how they get fifty percent off or fifty cents off a buy one pack today or something for Valentine's Day. But instead, here's what offices love right? You don't have to have them. Check off the box tell you. That's what they want. If you see they keep going over to the corporate side, send them Email for the corporate side. So that's why I keep talking about Email. It will do that. But active campaign was do. We'll do other stuff too. Like those text messaging. We'll do that whatever works. We're not saying you have to get locked into Email. I just think it's too complicated. The message here's what I'm gonna say for anyone who's listening to me if you. Doing Email marketing, and you're not getting to target people the way that I've been describing you could do it the old software. The even the modern software is way too complicated. You're never gonna get to do it by yourself. So you either not use it or you'll pay literally. I'm bet you there are people who have interviewed here were paying five ten their entrepreneurial Meyer paying five ten thousand a month to have somebody just manage your Email marketing because they want that smart, automated, you will not have to do with active campaign. And here's how I know it when you go to active campaign dot com slash mixture g they will actually give you two free one on one sessions with their experts. So you get on a call with them telling what you wanna do. And then they will tell you. Here's how to get it done with active campaign. They'll get you going. And then you come back. They hold themselves accountable and say get these paying if he doesn't use it. It's on them. They said, no, all right. Come back. Again. Did you use this? What you stuck? We'll help you out. Second conversation also included for free. They will. Of course, let you try for free. I should say, of course, most Email marketing companies don't do that anymore. But they'll let you try it for free. And if you decide sign up even give your second on free. And if you're with an Email marketing company that you hate they will. Shift you over. And if you promise not to tell the safety town, call me marketing company, but that's just a BS. There's nothing that I care about that. Here's deal. Good active, campaign dot com slash Mickey. I'm telling you, you're gonna love them. And if you don't tell me Email me, my whole company contact that mix dot com or frankly, come to my office to one mission street until floors. Andrew that advertiser viewers active campaign is not great. My guess is. You're gonna wanna buy me a bottle of scotch after son of them because your sales are gonna go up by targeting people properly. Active campaign. Good company got them like a common name in India. It is actually believe it or not I say, it is because Gotham Chopra I I know him because my wife worked for Deepak Chopra's daughter Gotham is her brother. And so I kind of got to know the family a little bit. He spells at Gotham like in Gotham city, you know, that spelling probably isn't as common, but the name super common my last name super common as well. So like like John Smith of India, if you will, you know, there's actually a Bollywood star with the same person. I know. I know I wish I I wish I could be him. You know, you know, what it makes it a little bit harder for me because I can't find you of you at all connected to bur no. Her other line to do man. It's like John Smith video. I'm telling you, man. Speaking of you grew up in the US and you've been to India. No your family. Yeah. Entrepreneurs there you are what was life like there. Yeah. We'll so I grew up here. So I've never lived in India. But I you know, we would spend the summer trips like if you have friends that kinda did this every summer we'd go to India and spend like two months in the middle of the summer, which was just agonizing. But we just, you know, his kids grow up with our cousins spend time with family. Amidst great like I mean, I was just there December you India's a world of opportunity, right? Like, there's a ton of corruption a lot of infrastructure that needs improving, but it's incredible world of opportunity today, and you know, billion people on smartphones. And it's just I mean, it's incredible. The things that the how fast apps or getting scale there. It's incredible. I could see that. I love it. When you talked about eating say, it's also beautiful in there. A really good people which all true, but you are thinking here's a commerce opportunities. Kind of it kind of makes me remember what our producer that as a kid USA sell candy out of your backpack. Yeah. I would get in trouble a lot as a kid for selling stuff. You know, I sold candy out of my bag, I sold mixed CDs. When like Napster was a big thing Iran in EBay business in high school. So I would just get in trouble for all kinds of like selling all kinds of random stuff when you say trouble. What do you mean? It's like. Yes. Some teacher saying like what are you doing? Why you can't do this on school property? You know, so, but it was fun. I mean, I always I feel like I had that kind of entrepreneurial gene from from birth. You know, my I think you've mentioned at my to grandfather's grandfather on both sides had been ups grows in India. So we we kind of were always had the dinner table conversation was around business right from very young age. Am I found it was like that too? I think that it helps a lot for kids to hear about business into see it. All right. I see where you are. I also looking at an interviewer you explain that you spent less than ten thousand dollars on those early ads. That's what gave me the allegation to continue. I understand now how sourced it. Now. It's time that the idea is valid validated to actually run with it. Is that point that you went out any raise money? Yeah. So we were really fortunate that the guys general catalyst put in initial capital, actually. Before I even left my day job. So I was still an employee of general catalysts and kind of we we had they had invested in naturebox on. So so we were very very fortunate and then once general callous invested a bunch of other angel investors were interested in investing. So January two thousand twelve I quit. My job went fulltime on naturebox. So did my co-founder and we basically had this goal of. Let's get from a hundred customers two thousand customers over the next two to three months. And and if we did that then we could go talked all these angel investors kind of finish raising our round raise like a proper seed round an end, that's what we did. Like, we kind of like just put our heads down spent the first three months of the year getting two thousand customers which was about a quarter of million dollar revenue run rate. And then once we had that I went into this live deck out that sort of said, hey, we're at a quarter of million dollar run rate. General catalyst leading our seed round. Do you want in and a about a month and a half later? We closed a two million dollars. Lebron? Oh, this was before Brian Lee. He's the guy from almost company from honest company. Also from legalzoom right heat up. We brought we talked about him here on mixture. Jeez, amazing with the founder of co founder of honest company. Also, he was in plug and play ventures general catalyst red pointing them looking at into lists soothsaying, even before you raise the two million. You raise a little bit of money how much money do raise. That's not angels. Yes. Who the initial funding was probably about four hundred thousand dollars that we raised from general catalyst. But it all was it was all part of that seed round. So it closed as part of that two million. Maybe a little bit early when they do that. How does that work? Do they do it as a loan? Do they do it as yes, it was just a convertible note? So it was a effectively what you would call safe note today. Okay. His kind of same thing. And every you know, everyone that we raised from was on that same note on it. I take note. That's that was created by y combinator I think that's the why Commodores who always was a little different because it kind of predates the why combinator right? I'm sort of thing. But for all intents and purposes the same right? They're very similar. You not one of the things I listened to carry swishes interviews law. Do listen to her. Yeah. Yeah. Once in a while one thing that she does she jumps in. And she like anticipate what the truth is it. You're gonna say, and then I notice even when people disagree. She goes. Yeah. Right. Like, she's like, I guess you're right. It might be something like so general catalyst did invest in your first round. And you might say, no, they did and go. Yeah. Right. They did. I'm noticing that. Now, I'm starting to parrot her back. We'll keep me on my toes. So good. You know, there's this old statement, you're like the five people you around that. You're the average of the five people you around. I think that's BS like around my kids like five hours. Not I'm not into my diaper. My pants not I feel like we are the average of the five people in our heads. And if they come in from podcast, great if they come in from the same show, he listened to great coming from friends. That's what it is CARA. Swisher this week made it into the top five now. It's like everything. Yeah. Right. You're right. All I'm gonna be careful now. No, I need to be careful because when she'll do is she'll like whatever you say. It's like, yes, I'm confirming it, right? You did raise the twenty million. You did raise to okay. I also heard that. There was an issue actually sourcing the food that the first time you could go into Costco. But eventually you had to say to yourself. We need some good food here that we can get on an ongoing basis. How did you solve that problem? So we got again like this sort of a team of luck. Right. So so we got lucky a friend of mine knew that I was doing. I was I was running this project on the side naturebox and told me about a conference in Chicago where it could go meet food manufacturers and this conference is called the private-label show. Right. So labels, kind of the term that everyone uses to describe manufacturers produce something for on behalf of another brand. Right. And so I said, wow. This is perfect like we should go attend the show. Maybe we'll find a bunch manufacturers. So we get to the show in Chicago. Ago, we probably paid a few thousand bucks just to be there right between the ticket to the conference the airline ticket hotel cetera Mico, founder Nyerere in the line to pick up our badge. The person in front of us is from whole foods in the person behind this is from like WalMart. And so we're like, okay, we're in the right place. Right. I mean, Mike if those guys are coming to this show than we're probably, you know, money good start walking the show floor every person we need we start asking. Hey, do you do private label? And after the third person that we talked to third bender. They're like you guys know that you're at the private label show. Right. So you should stop asking. All right. We're like, yeah. You're right. We're kind of it's. Yeah, you're right. And then we would talk to vendors. We're like, okay, great. Like one of this product on how much will cost us, and they would quote some price. They would say you ten dollars f- b and after here on a couple times relate my God. Like, what are these guys saying I mean? You know, my cove hunters Chinese Indian are they saying like f o b like fresh off the boat as like a Ling. Or you know, it wasn't too later that we figured out. No the actually quoting us on freight. Right. So it was you know, freight on board or whatever the term K or we were like, no, it's ten bucks. Plus, you gotta play pay the freight. Right. So so anyway that conference was was great. We met a couple of early manufacturers. Some manufacturers that we still work with today, and we started buying product directly from the manufacturer. And then over time we actually started developing our own product, right? Like a few months later. We'd actually go to these manufacturers and say, hey, make me this. And so so that was a great up Lucien. So I've got from the internet archive the first version of your site in our producer. So I may have. Yeah. That's right. No actually internet archive goes back further than I think what you at one point you charging nineteen dollars a month nineteen ninety five or something. Right. Nineteen ninety five is. Yeah. Yeah. And so all of these guys from the begin. Well, no, they didn't. I it seems like an one of the versions what you've got is like a cliff bar. In addition to other like nuts, right? Yeah. I mean, honestly, the very early days because keep in mind, this was all Photoshop until that first box that we sent out. So the very early days it was sort of like what can we do? What can we have Photoshop the easiest fastest? Right. And so that was using some other people's brands that that was sort of the solution, right light. Hey, get it up there. Put it up on the site. You know, if it works, great if it doesn't change it. Right. And so the first couple images that we may have were probably other people's brands and other people's food. But actually the first box that we sent and ever since then it's always been the naturebox brand, you know, obviously, the food within the bag was Kirkland at the time. But that's obviously changed. So so. Sorry. So there was never a cliff bar or something else. It was always yours. It was always got labeled with your stuff on. You know, what else stands out for me? As I go back in time. You took you a while tavern order form on your site. And when you finally did the first one was kind of ugly, but until then used to send people directly to recurrently it was like. Bag. You don't my co-founder nine neither of us for technical. And so we did whatever we could whatever the easiest thing was. And I think the lesson learned for for furs out there is you don't have to be technical. You don't have to go. Find a technical co founder just start somewhere. It's it might not be perfect. Right. And as you are looking at it. It wasn't perfect. Irving. But I think that's the lesson. French Burs right is like it's not gonna it doesn't have to be perfect. Don't aspire to be perfect. Just get out there store getting data an immensely how we thought about it. Let's talk about the data in the first customers you kept going back to did you go back to Facebook. Or is that the time when you said, look, I learned about influencers. Yes, I'm going to which one. What did you do? We went mostly towards influencer. So so we started basically going after mommy bloggers and sending them samples asking them to write about the product. You know, we that was almost our entire focus for the first year was like, let's go in front of these bloggers get them to write about us about way. If you search nature rocks. You get all these nice articles about us. And that's the thing you would actually put together listed them. And you would send them send them free stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. No, we'd reach out to them. Just a hate. You know on Gupta. I'm. Trying to do this company. Here's what it's all about. Like, read your blog. I think you'd love it. And I send you box and get your feedback. I see one of them right here. I went to so boxes and sub boxes dot WordPress dot com and as a whole category on naturebox. Spelled two words you guys spell your company name with one word. I could see this. Mommy, blogger I guess he's a mommy blogger who wrote all about you. And that's what's wrong for you just have like a database. It was you Gotham sending it out. It was it was myself. I would send some, but actually we'd hired our first employee was a woman that we'd hired from the navy actually. And she like just a wonderful person, super energetic and passionate about food. And so like, she just loved interacting with the blogger. She was totally the right person to do that as well. Because the passion was was genuine, right. So when a blogger would say, oh, you know, but I see the. It has this ingredient. Like, why does it have that ingredient? Right. Like, she could actually get into it with the blogger in sort of like explain completely Janu it, right? Like, she had both the interest as well as the the knowledge onto she did most of it, actually. One of the issues that I always have with this type of approaches. It's so hard to tell whether it's working and it takes a while to pay off. Did you have any issues with that? She can't get you weren't giving them discount codes. And you weren't tracking them. In fact, if anything this, mommy blogger who did it sometimes writers naturebox one word, sometimes two words, which makes it feel authentic. She said before you buy it. Click over the retail me not. Nature roy. I'm right great. Yeah. She was sending people over that way. And then she said the offer I used today was daily candy. But I grabbed it from retail me not. So there's no way for you to track. It if anything if you tracking it's it's Bill candy. That's going to get. How did you know? This was working for you. Yes. In the very early days, our marketing activities were super limited. Right. And so it was really focused on influencers driving these blog posts. And so we knew that it was working because we weren't really doing anything else. Right. Like a meeting. So we kind of knew that. Hey, somebody's hearing about the product someway. And the only thing that we're doing primarily earth blogs. Right. So so although it wasn't direct attribution. We had pretty high level of confidence. Those working the other thing that we wanted to do was we wanted to make sure if you typed naturebox into a search, you get some something about the company, right? Like, it wasn't just nature rocks. Calm. You get a couple of other things you'd be able to read a positive review about service. And so it definitely satisfied. As well. So even if there was no attribution at all. We probably still would have done it because it made the future paid acquisition much more effective. Art. I do see that even to this day searches bring up a bunch, wow, including Amazon, which will catch you. But the one weird thing that stands out for me is Google shows your address as being in San Carlos, there's a picture of someone's house. Are they showing your house here? San Carlos is like people live. No, no, you know, what it's a over the years that Google local information has been at a messed up become his office, actually Redwood shores. So it's not in Saint Carlos anymore, but you know, site one dollars will be just added the profile or something I Tam who I worked with here mixture for longtime lived in San Carlos. It's so close to San Francisco, but they're fricken dear outside is window at times. It's I know I know. Yeah. In Carlos for a little while to it's a beautiful place unexpected. But it's great. It's hit. It's a hidden gem in the peninsula. And then you started to shift to buy you talked about raising money interrupted Yuzu talking about putting the deck together. What happened there? Yeah. So, you know, mind belief on on putting a deck together is basically you wanna emphasize where you're really strong, right? So in our case, it was the growth. So the first light of the deck was our growth rate or how quickly we have gotten from zero to thousands of tribal quarter million dollar run rate. Then I think in the Dak you wanna hit the main concerns, right? Why investor wouldn't invest in this company had on rights? You don't wanna shy away from it? If you think like, hey, food, for example, one of the big questions that we would get is the unit economics around food sock web. Bam. You know, went out of business. Why you think you can make it work? We literally had a slide that talked about like, here's why a business like web band didn't work. Here's why we think our business will. Here's what the unit economics. Look like like that was a inexp-. Lissette slide that we made. So like, my belief whenever you know, fundraising is there's always gonna be those two or three questions that are the show stoppers. Right. Like the reason why Aachen amassed an rather than wait for the question to come up. I think you just have to hit it head on to answer. To those to those issues is not much money in food food companies have failed sweat. Yes. For us. You know, the answer was so I if it was the market is finally growing right after longtime in part of that's because food and beverage is the last frontier for ecommerce. But if you look inside of the business like the reason why web van really didn't work as well. Was they had both the complexity of warehousing the product right buying the product. We're having product as well as the last mile delivery, right? And so the complexity of being good at doing both is really hard, right? Few businesses have been able to do both. And so we said, okay. The first thing I assist in that we made is we're not gonna. To do the last mile delivery. We're gonna let other people do that. We don't want anything to do last month. Livery? Then if you look at warehousing, if you actually broke out, you know, the perishable products from the nonperishable products, what you realize is you spend a lot of money satisfying ability, right because you need to build cap X to house perishable products. Right refrigeration things like that. And you need to turn that inventory, really fast. And we said, okay, we're going to start with non perishable products. And if we can build a good business in non perishable products. Then of maybe someday, we'll think about adding parish meeting like nuts are considered non Archambault in this out gay. All right. I get it. There's also period. There were investors were excited about subscription boxes that even subscription boxes were unclear about what they were about. We're doing hot. And I feel like you kinda road that right? There. It went in waves, right? There were times were subscription was really hot. And the times were subscription was nobody wanted to touch and it largely came down to what the big companies in subscription how they were doing. Right. So if there was a big company like at the time shootout. All right moves really struggling and that made it really hard for us to finance right because everyone would come into a meeting and people would say out subscription doesn't work shoot house. Little, you know, got got rid of subscription. They don't believe in it this model those Merck, and then you're left kind of sitting there like, okay, we'll know. Like, actually, we think it does work in yours. The reasons why we think it works. So it went in waves. I think we benefited from subscription at times we were also hurt by the fact that the subscription kind of bubble was bursting at times as well. Seemed like that round went well SoftBank capital came in general catalyst came in. You raised another eight point five let's jump into a couple of issues and then talk about how you got through them. And then also what happened with subscriptions? I gotta tell people about a company called top towel Gotham. You got you gotta know about this company. Top tells injuries and Harwood's funded company. They are now doing so. Well, I don't think they need more more funding. The idea actually forget the idea. Here's a guess that I had on this guy. Nathan lot. Go said, I really liked his chrome plug in that will tell me when people are opening up my Email and just like all the stuff that that g mail doesn't do it's a plug in a dozen, and it's free and on charging anything for it. So he bought the company, and he said the one innovation that, I want Atta mmediately is a paid thing a pig component. That's how I could make my money back. So he went to top down. And he said, here's what I need. I need you guys helped me charge. And just like you did in the early days. He said, it's not restrict anyone. But if they're using a more than X number of times, just bring a pop up this says pay if you're using this a lot or a link underneath it says as a courtesy keep using it for free one more time. You know, they went to top tell they added that on some we had a revenue stream from this one that he bought for chrome that attached to g mail, and the reason that I bring this up a top talent is. Because he said that he heard top towel dot com slash mixer here in a mixture media interviews at our. It was give him a shot. And he went with them. He is one of many people who have interviewed who have done exactly that. If you're out there listening to me, and you want a great developer or futures Gotham. Listen to me right now, and you ever need a great developer. You know, the usual path is asking friends friends of friends go to your network that's phenomenal. If you can do that. And get a good person. Go for the next one is put ads all over the internet. And you software to help you place, it everywhere and call all the responses that is a pain in the neck takes up a lot of time. You don't have to do it that way. The better alternative is go to top tau dot com slash Mickey no-obligation Gotham. They already have a list of people that they've screened. They put them through the ringer. Go. Read medium articles by developers who got turned down by top down. Who said I promise I'm going to work harder. And I'll get back in the system. I love that those things happen. And so you get on a call with someone atop tau. They call him. A matter top talent, they will talk to you. They will help you understand what your problem is by shaping an understanding of explanation of what it is. And then they'll introduce you to one or two people on. In their database, and if you love you could get started off right away. Not nothing lost. And I'll tell you this. If you go to this. You are all that. I'm about to give you and you're not happy with even after getting started. They will not charge. You they'll still pay the developer. Go get details about that offer at top towel dot com slash MC surgery. I loved them. They've been sponsoring us a lot. Here's what I've learned over the years. I do not pronounce top towel rights. I'm gonna say top and top of your head towels and talent that's T O P T A, L dot com slash MC, surging mother. That is why they wanna talk to people Gotham, the they wanna talk to you before to make sure they can actually take care of you. And if they can't then I want you signing up just to use somebody's time and then get a refund so go check them out. All right. You going really well you started buying ads. You you moved onto like television ads and podcast ads. Right. And that was in well for you. How did you know the TV ads we're going to do while? I'm always amazed that people can track that well better than I. Effect. Yes. So the TV ads by the way, there is kind of a system of attribution that people use now. Right. So they, you know, you do it in couples mall markets kinda have the baseline that you compare basically traffic from those markets relative to baseline, and when we did that test. We saw that it was working really. Well, the downside. Both TV was to produce a spot was costing us a lot of money, right? Like tens of thousands of dollars to produce a TV spot. And we should have looked at it. And we said, well, you know, TV as a medium seems to be working, but we don't necessarily have a budget to kinda keep this link going because of the amount of, you know, spend on just actup right, creative as we always working. But we kind of decided, hey, it's better for us to focus, you know, spend our dollars where they're going to have the maximum return. And we just couldn't afford frankly to to put the dollars towards. Creative. When most of what we're doing was kind of mortgage. So he was working in you could attribute direct orders to the ads. I'm seeing you guys use ice spot dot TV that creates up to place. I remember when they first came out and tech crunch. I think would write about them. It makes sense. You're saying it worked, but I don't understand the part that did not work. Yes. The part will it's not necessarily part that didn't work. It's more that the budget to create the TV ad the commercial was so much, right? That we didn't feel like we could keep going on TV given that we had limited dollars to spend in channel. Right. Okay. Right. Would have made money would have taken you a lot longer to get that that money back from each subscriber to pay for it. Well, what we're finding is just the digital channels were just as officiant. Right. So so why not spend the focus time there versus you know, have spread spread. Kind of spread yourself too thin. Right. And so we tested it. And we said, you know, look, we're just not at a stage where we have enough cash in enough runway to say, this is going to be sustainable part of our marketing mix going forward. I now see where I understood what your revenues were. You must have talked our producer came out. And since it was a private conversation with you in the producer of not going to reveal. It seem like it's something that you meant to say. But I love that. They put it down here in my notes the revenue was at that point. It was strong, and you said to our producer. I think we need to spend more we needed to spend more time dealing with. Why people cancel why did they sign up and understand our customers better instead of China understand television better? What did you understand? What about why people cancelled and how to undo Tscharner reduce it? Some of it goes back to this kind of. Standing up. Can you still hear me? Yeah. Yeah. I can't little ringing. I'm kind of in the back. So no sue some of it just goes back to like why we moved away from subscription. We felt like we had put customers on the subscription model. Even though many of them didn't wanna be on subscription. Right. And so that probably the biggest churn reason for us was you know, I just stuff is stacking up. I don't have room in the pantry to keep all these boxes of snacks. I just don't want this. I'll order when I want it. But I don't want you keep sending it to me. Right. And so that goes back to kind of this reason of why we pivoted away from subscription. The other thing that we were hearing kinda loud and clear for our subscribers was they like the unique of the product, but the value equation wasn't there whom he started to dig into that what we realized was the the amount of value. You could get out of nature walks was was pretty the there was a wide spectrum, right? Like if you bought five bags of plantation ships. You know, arguably for twenty bucks are usually that wasn't a great value. Right. But if you bought five bags of our Saracho cashews that was a phenomenal value. Right. Just by you know, how consumers think of what they would pay for these products in the grocery store until we realized as we have this huge spectrum of products on the each have their own perceived value, and you know, not further kind of fed into this desire to move away from subscription because we thought, hey, what if we could just price these things at value? You know, could we actually been instead of consumers being pissed at us because they don't think they're getting the value that they deserve. They could actually just by what they want. Right. And you know, if our price on plantain chips was like more than you're willing to pay don't buy the plan Tanja, right? Like by other stuff. But how did you know that was it? And not we need to change the mix stuff that we send them because I think about if I don't wanna eat potato chips. If it's in the house, I'm gonna finish it. I don't wanna eat the pretzel peanuts pretzels stuff with peanuts that my wife gets for the kids snacks for school. If it's open, I'm gonna tear right into it. There's some snacks that are like that. How did you know wasn't changing the mix of food? Well, we we experimented over time with different types of products as well as just making it really easy to filter the catalog based on whatever your needs were right. Like, if it was more of a healthy aid or Zeitz, Ernie sweets fermented, a lot with that what we found was the product people really liked the food. Right. Like, they liked the food taste great. It was unique. But they hated the way that they were we were selling food. Right. And so that's what kind of ultimately took us way from from subscription kinda why we started to really extend the brand, you know, two words Alicarte shopping online as well. As some of the retail stuff that we ended up doing you had mentioned the Recode article. Who was that Jason Delray? Okay. Alec Jason stuff. I've a lot of respect for Jason with someone else there. I do too. I actually feel like. Recode has had some really good writers there and they care about their stuff. None of the writers are ever going to get rich. They're just like in the old writing mode with a spent a lot of time doing research, and nobody gets the credit. I guess they get a little bit. I don't know why brought that up. I kind of feel what it is. I feel bad when somebody does the hard work the Rico does. And I and they still are not going to get further ahead in some of the. The people online who joined Jack. And and we'll get a lot of tension Rico. Does do good work. I love the you laid off twenty of your sixty people you still talk to Jason at Recode. And you went through the issue. And I think one of the issues that you brought up was raising money is an issue right there who had trouble raising money, and you said we need to cut costs. What was the issue with raising money at that point yet? And let me just one half step back. You know, we did this layoff which was by far the most painful moment in my career. But but one thing if for any entrepreneur that like is dealing with this sort of issue, not a lot of people talk about layoffs in like how even how you do them. I found that there was this interest in or woods blog or podcast that talked about it. And that was like huge win for me. Like just having something right to that talked about, you know, how you do this. Right. Like, what what you know, how you treat people when when you're going through layoff because I think it's obviously the worst thing that you're. Have to do as a CEO earned the right way to lay people off on a sixteen Z's? Yeah. Horowitz that was like such a opener for me in anyway. So for any ver that's going through this on highly recommend reading mad article. And I just think like layoffs can be done in really terrible ways. And I wanted to you as much as possible try to be treat people with respect and dignity. But yeah, we got to the point where we had to lay off people and actually Jason kinda actually ping me while I was getting married. Unfortunately, these things happen all at the same time. You don't plan the stuff, but I was actually away getting married like a can we talk about this and talked to seems like back in you. What I told him was, you know, I think the unfortunate reality is you're the venture model is built for a rapid scale. Right. End a week. To this place where we raise a lot of capital, and we were kind of on a bit of a hamster wheel where in order to raise the next round of funding. We had to grow at a certain level in order to grow at that level. We needed to invest a certain amount of capital into marketing hit acquisition. Right. And so it was just circular right because you end up like raise money to spend the money to raise more money. Right. And we found ourselves on this hamster wheel that we couldn't get off. And so that was what I was kind of telling Jason this that that's the unfortunate reality of when you take big venture money. You know, you're you're kind of on that at like growth curve that if you decide to slow down or things are working out quite as the way that you hoped it's really hard to kind of get yourself off. You also told our producer the problem with food companies in like this tech comers. World is. Kind of confusing for investors. Here's what I've got from the notes what they meaning the investors realized was that they were investing in high growth ecommerce in ecommerce businesses, they saw that most of the investors in the food. It's you most of the investors in the food space or more traditional CPG, consumer based goods companies right in tech, investors or more into the high growth revenue that comes from software, mice summing that up. Right. Yes. So I think what I was saying there is there at least for us when we would go out and risk capital. Tech investors in their masters. The tech investors wanted you to grow the way tech company does right on. So they wanted to grow fast and money to grow do all those things the CG investors really wanted to see profitability. And so the challenge for us was we got to assize where we started talking this VGA investors and to those guys we weren't even speaking the same language, right? Because the CPG guys were wondering, hey, where's your EBA? What's your gross margin? You know, all these different things, and we had always been used to the conversation with outgrowth, right? Like, hey, how fast can grow? How much grow fifty percent faster than what you're you have planned kind of all those things into that? That's kind of the discussion that was, you know, having the producer. There is that there's just two different very very different types of investors that invest in these companies, and what they look for is very different. And so, you know, you can get kinda cotton in between that right? And it seems like you're you're shifting towards the consumer base. Good world. Now. Right. Definitely. Because because that's where the market the businesses taking. It's not like you're making a strategic bet on those investors coming in Nextel. Yeah. That's just where the businesses taken us. That's where we feel like we we started the company it was to be a brand of healthy snacks. It wasn't to be a big ecommerce company. It wasn't to be a big subscription company. It was to be a brand of health. Acts right in. So what we've realized is kinda gotta get back to the basics of winning on product. And it doesn't matter. How we sell that product. Right. Like, that's what we're selling. Right. We're not selling a subscription model were selling great product in. The that's been the pollution of the strategy. I didn't talk about the layoffs and how you recover from that. But that's one of the things he said to producer. Look, you guys if you wanna focus on something that you hadn't thought about that something how do you recover from? That. Would what have you learned that we can take from that? Yeah. So I think probably the biggest thing is when you do it the the day of a big layoff. I think you just you really have to kind of math out like our our your game plan for that day. I think you want to treat people with respect and dignity. We sat down with every single person in the company whether you are being affected by layoff or not. And I think that's the right way to do it. Right. Is you sit down with everyone any kind of the whole company. Yes. Yes. For our people now. Okay. Nor case we got everyone together. It was very quick. I said, hey, we're doing a reduction enforced today because of these reasons, and you know, we're going to be sitting down with everyone one on one, you know, so please like. And then the folks that are remaining we're gonna come together at the end of the day and talk about our plan forward. And that means that there's some people coming into your office knowing did they know beforehand that they're leaving. Or is it they come to your office. And then they walk away and people see them clear their stuff out. Unfortunately, I'm beforehand. Right. So so kind of all done on one day. And so you might vices like just a planet outright have like an hour by hour. Schedule be really aligned with the rest of the folks that are helping you coordinate this. And then I think afterwards just trying to be helpful to the people that were affected, you know. Introducing them to other companies or just just trying to be, you know, reference things like that. I think that you probably the best thing you can do is is van, you know, get everyone kind of motivated by what you want the business to be going forward an end just, you know, be real people, right? Like that. This wasn't in the cards. This wasn't planned. But it's an unfortunate reality of running a business in you know, we're gonna try and do that. We can't how do you get motivated after going? We're in a world where everyone needs to do better tomorrow than they did yesterday. Yeah. You're now it seems like you're going down. How do you get motivated yet? I mean, I it's definitely it's it's really tough. I would say the probably the biggest thing the biggest good thing that comes out of a layoff is it's a wake-up call right? That you got to change something that you're doing. And so for us. It was about narrowing the focus of the company, and instead of trying to do ten different things doing all these projects like let's just focus on the the one or two things that we really need to do to be successful company. Right. And so I think what you motivate people the way that you kinda get people motivated as you just narrow the focus of what you're trying to do a make it really clear that we're not operating the business. The way we used to like this is this is a wakeup call to change. And we've kind of heard the feedback right? That gotta get better at doing fewer things. I do feel like it so much more exciting to be in a subscription business where you see month month revenue growth where you could predict your revenue could work on turn instead of working on getting new customers. Do you see any hope for that? If you are smaller company. Could you sustain that? Or coach Li yeah, potentially. I mean, I think subscriptions, not not evil. Right. I'm not trying to kind of tell people don't start a subscription business. I just think that for us. We started subscription because it was good for us. It wasn't good for the consumer. Right. And we had to do is really go back to focusing on what the consumer cares about which for us was like great product. Right. And so that's not to say that we couldn't still be selling products description. It, you know, be great. It's just a safe that we had to get focused. On like, what was the core reason that people come into by? You know, what I do like is it seems like you shifted a little bit also towards office. Subscriptions, you added that he has that going for you. Really? Well, yeah. So the office program is unlimited snacks where you pay per employee per month. So you pay twenty dollars per employee per month. And you get unlimited snacks. It's a phenomenal values that meet unlimited snacks. Yes. So you get you get actually pick from our catalog. You know, the exact snacks that you want. And then anytime you run out we send you more O'Reilly. Yeah. You know that they're that. They actually have the number of employees that they have in that they're not just saying we have ten people what doing for fifty at the end of the day. Obviously there's a big trust component. Right. Like, we're making it databases like crunch phase likely din at Bradstreet at cetera. Right. So we're looking at those databases kind of triangulating but the same time like it's it's trust. Based like, you know, if you really wanted to scam us, you know, on ten employees or something like that. Like, yeah. You know, you could. Do that. Would we ever find out? Maybe maybe not right. But that the bigger companies tell me if I'm wrong come can actually do snacks. Like this for their people are at a place where it's generally not the person who's gonna screw around who's going to be in charge of that. It's the person who's in charge knots going around, and you better. Yeah. And the other thing I'd say is I mean, it's not like that money like the office manager who's purchasing. It is like putting that money in her pocket. So I think look there's definitely trust component to it. But it's a phenomenal value proposition for for companies. I really wish more companies would do this. I am now in San Francisco. I've seen a lot of offices here. They're so proud of their ice cream and snack. I think everyone of the I've got to talk to someone who orders this junk food for their office to understand why they do it. Maybe the you get more productivity by giving people comfort food. But what I'm finding is people feel more guilty after they eat it sending people into an office where they feel. She didn't when they come home because the junk food, and they didn't mean to but there were stressed, and so they gave in I wish that every office just say, you know, what here's our attitude were only doing healthy food. We're going to give you enough healthy food that you'll feel good about at the end of the day. I know it's going to suck for some of you who have comfort food needs. Guess what? Walk downstairs, you'll be. Okay. That's mine. I mean, we, you know for us. It's we think you're not gonna eat even if it's healthier. It's good for you. You're not gonna eat it unless to taste great. So so for us. It's always about how do you make a product taste great. But you know, doesn't have a lot of the added junk that a lot of other snacks might have bad said we're also just trying to make life easier for the office manager. Right. Like, do you really wanna have to go to Costco, every week in like pick the snacks that you're getting in, you know, pay per item. All that offer. You know, do you wanna just never have to think about it? Right. Like, all you have to do send us an Email and say Samuel aren't kids. What I got out of the center number one teacher should just really encourage kids to to sell candy. And if they're doing it. Optum, make him feel good about it. Congratulate them for doing it. Number one, number two. Subscriptions models are not the cure all for everything. Number three. We do have to stop and pay attention. And not just say, what's what's the best business model for us? But also, what makes sense for a customer number three or whatever number on. It does pay for more business to think about how do I go to be? How do I sell the stuff to business businesses? More rational businesses have more money to spend business could make big purchases. So that's all great next. I'm going to say that laying people off is really painful. I think Ben Horowitz can't find that article in his first point. He said do it fast. Don't put it off. It's really hard not to. I think we really need somebody on the outside to look at stuff and say, I told you you gotta do this. Now, I'm gonna push you to do it right now before it's too painful for you. Right. I think that's everything. And then finally if you don't know something, even if you know a little bit of it don't pretend, you know, just ask I feel like that's gonna make you a smarter person. Even though in the moment, you're gonna feel. Right. I should highlight. Now, it's great while while said out all right to Gotham Gupta. Apparently got them. Is it real name? That's such a frigging. Cool name. I thought Deepak Chopra had like a cool side. Not a cool. He has no cool. John chopra. He's just like regular Indian dude who happened just gone more traditional. All right. Anyone wants to go? Check out the business. Go check them out at any mommy blogger because they're backing out like working with their network and getting people talk about or just go to naturebox dot com. I wanna thank my two onto made. This interview happen owned, by the way, I should say. Yes, our discount codes for your site all over the place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are there are people go check out retail. The bloggers are doing that already. So, you know. Come go. Go check it out at naturebox dot com or anywhere else that you like, and I wanna thank my sponsors made. This interview happened. The I will do marketing even though that they prefer that. I highlight that they do other stuff. It's called active campaign dot com slash mixer and the second will help you hired phenomenal developers its top towel dot com slash misery. And I'm gonna be running marathons all over the world. If you wanna follow along home doing go. Check me out at run with Andrew dot com. Thanks. Thanks them. Course. Thank you. Bye. Bye. One.

naturebox Gotham city producer founder Facebook Email marketing company Andrew Warner India co-founder Costco Naturebox developer Gotham New York Times San Francisco Meyer Gotham Gupta internet co founder
The Amazon Jungle by Rick Cesari and Jason Boyce Part 2

Amazing FBA

39:04 min | 5 hrs ago

The Amazon Jungle by Rick Cesari and Jason Boyce Part 2

"Welcome to the ten k. Collective podcast for six seven and eight amazon and e commerce sellers apart of the amazing. Fbi family if you want to scale fast target seven figure exit and enjoy the process. Thank keep listening. Today's episode is sponsored by the new e commerce podcast the ecommerce leader co hosted by myself michel visi and jason miles top one percent of shop if i store owner and utilize highest rated e commerce instructor if you're the owner of a thriving e commerce business look for the commerce leader on your favorite podcast app and subscribe today. Hey folks welcome back to the ten key. Collective the place to be for six seven eight. I'm just salas. Today we are talking further with rick's sorry kind of creates at really of direct response tv advertising. Certainly one of the people that made it when he mainstream and jason from avenue media. Jason boyce who is seriously powerful experienced sellers like seventeen years of experience in the trenches and eight figures over many of those as well. So we're gonna be talking today on ready two key areas. One is building a great brand rix sausages for that and the other one as the the keys for selecting and building great product choices by jason. Boyce so powerful stuff. Some of it is stuff that if you've been around the block for awhile you'll have heard before but i think that the type of people that it's being made by and spoken about by really mean that everyone should sit up and take some notice because it comes with a lot of deep experience in this area. I hope you enjoy the show. Thanks for listening. Innovates innovates that brings me to a five key strategies for building a great brand which obviously is the kind of brighton rock the underlies against the twin themes here as a nasty people in need to defend yourself and brand is the answer so your five key stresses rate. Talk us through that to the genius here brick. No i will. And jason knows a lot of these things now as well and uses them every day. But you know. Think about this. And i think at anybody that you're listening michael and selling on amazon if they haven't we'd like to use a phrase when we're talking to people start with the end in mind and what that means is where where do you wanna. Why are you starting amazon business. And where do you want to be. Do you want to sell this business at some point in the future and we were talking before the podcast started a little bit about amazon aggregate irs. And it's a great opportunity for selling an amazon business but one of the things are looking for is a brand. So how do you how do you do that. And you know. I wrote a book building billion dollar brand which is just my experience and working with sonacare juice man and oxy clean and george foreman grill and really taking the things that were the similarities and all of those campaigns and what they did to help build the brand and some of it is very old school or it's not like revolutionary but people don't normally do a lot of them are put all of these things together and the first one is really basic marketing. One on one is your us unique selling proposition. And when jason. I see this all the time people be thinking about starting an amazon business. And they'll wanna market a coffee maker are are a blender and it's like it's no different than any other blender out there you know what is the unique selling proposition and giving a quick blender story a few years ago and i know. It's not this way now on amazon. There was high priced blenders which were vitamix and there were really cheap wearing blenders but there was no one right in the middle and i was working with a couple of guys that said. Hey we're gonna market a blender that tried into middle who got the power revita mixed but you just have to pay a little bit more than the zoeller priced one. So that was their differentiator. You know a couple other examples in either extreme examples but also point out the unique selling proposition. Look at the gopro camera when the guys started that he was competing against sony. Panasonic kodak which is bankrupt now and he was building a camera in his garage. So what did he do to differentiate himself. He basically focused on a little niche x. Camera that would work for extreme sports and that was a great netra him and other little example. There is a coffee. Let's say you're launching a coffee brand and millions of different coffee brands out there. So one of the stories. I like to tell. I think i heard this on a tim. Ferriss podcast was the story of death. Wish coffee it was his strongest coffee ever made. But that's a differentiator jason. I talking earlier. About different is better than better. And that's really what. S p as amazing what what unique about your product or service are are what you're selling. And then how do you communicate that message to someone. And jason goes into really good detail in the book and the product development stages and he's done it and he can talk about it with a foosball table or ping pong table pool table. Whatever he sold is that's a commodity other people are selling it but when he was designing his products he got inspiration for. And i let them tell the story from from a mustang fastback. Any put racing stripes on the table and that was enough of the differentiator to make that the number the number one product in the category. So it's just a really focusing on changing your thinking so that you're looking at how you can make your product different than the competition out there and i'm not saying it's an easy task and you can't necessarily do it for every single product but almost everybody that all the clients at jason's working with has done this pretty much with their with their product. Line do you want to add an jason. I mean that's that's great stuff. Rick i want to share a story with you michael on your listeners. That helped us at one point. My brothers and i in our business. We thought we were the man cave company we thought we were selling to a lot of dudes who were buying pool tables air hockey and foosball tables for their man cave and then we were probably doing nine. Ten million at the time when we when we had this discovery and we took our customer lists and it was even an amazon customer. Listen we sent it to a list broker and we said what. The anonymous demographics breakdown is of our products. And you know what we learned. We learned that we weren't a man cave company we learned that about sixty percent of our customers were women who lived in rural areas who had big houses and lots of kids and we thought dang we were really way off here we are doing you know ten million nine million ten million in revenue and we went back to the drawing board and we said well. We looked at the search results page for all of our tables and we looked at the designs and all of the designs looked like most of the game. Table makers out there were like ex professional billiard players right so old white dudes that old bald fat white dudes with their sense of design right and so it was very masculine and not very inspiring and so we hired craig agency just on a contract basis. We didn't spend a lot of money but we said hey we want your help rebranding our company because we realized we're not selling to bank as we want something that's more fun and exciting and gender neutral and so we started with our brand. We created this. You know fun. Exciting brand bring friends and family together. Which is what mom's wanna do right. They want to buy an air hockey table. Not because of the power of the air blower because they want their kids and their family to come together and have good offscreen time and so we created this really fun and bright color energetic brand and then on the design level rick mentioned that ping pong table. We'd ripped off some designs from ford mustang. But i was walking in a mall at one point and i went to a board. I went to a surf shop to get some. You know a bathing suit. And i saw some board shorts that really cool and they were like blue stripes and orange stripes and they were kind of intermingled and i didn't even buy them. I just took a picture of it with my cell phone. I came back. And i went to our graphic designers and i think this will look cool an air hockey table because i've never seen anything like it and so we. We skinned our air hockey table with these really cool designs and within about three months after landed it became a number one seller on amazon that category. It's a little different things like knowing who your customer is especially for your listeners. Who've got a years worth of thousands and thousands of customers senate overdue list broker find out. What the real demographics aren't see if you can tailor some designs to match them in the last thing i'll say about that is as we started a populate these cool new gender neutral and like less masculine more feminine designs on the search results. Page all you had to do a search air hockey table and see our our stuff jumped off over. The first page of search results are click. Through rates went through the roof. Our conversion rates went through the roof and the best part we sold it for thirty percent higher than everybody else on that page and we still sold as much quantity and think just to add one one little thing that michael is. You can't just go again. This is something you can do in the old days you go to. China find a product could on amazon and make money. Now you have to go to china find a product and add your personal touch or differentiate it from the other products out there and we talk about that in the book before you start selling it on amazon and so it's a little thing but it's something that's necessary to build the brand and then just jumping into the next one zigzag that that's what i call positioning and that's kind of a marketing term. But really i always tell. Tell me about a book. I recommend in a blue ocean strategy. Which is really basically determines. Zigzag came out. If everyone's going one direction you need to go the other direction and look for the open opportunity or the open category or the niche in the marketplace where you can get your product and you know. There's a couple of examples again from products. I work within the past but a juicer. That we have is a great example. And kind of combines. One to a juicer is a commodity a brandon crops when we launched the juice juicer. We're selling these products. And they were selling them as kitchen appliances and when we started. Marketing are juicer. We focused on the benefits of the juice coming out and marketed as a health device. So we we took a common kitchen appliance and turned it into a health device which is totally different category and very similar any any really successful big brand you know about have done a similar strategy. I mention gopro before gopro took the strategy and positioning where there weren't any other cameras in the extreme sports thing and the biggest benefit of a gopro wasn't a fact that it was quote unquote a great camera. It was all the mounting devices where you could mount it on the front of a surfboard on a handlebar on a bicycle on on your ski pole on a helmet. That was the big thing that differentiated go pro from the competition. That you're able to turn it around and take pictures of yourself so the exact part is really about positioning looking for a niche in the market place that it there aren't a lot of competitors that's why they call it blue ocean. There's not a lot of boats out they are. And if you can find that even if it's small you can you can stake a claim and generate great sales. I yeah. I've read the the pollution subsidy and great stuff. I mean i. It does feel very very hard. And i was not severely in the red ocean as they call it. It's because all the sharks feeding on each other. A- does feel very very hard blue ocean at this point. I mean do you think that's still out there in two thousand nine hundred twenty twenty one and beyond will i think it is. It's it's harder to find. And i think it gets niche down. Where before there was a blue ocean it was this big and now it might be this big and you have to find that niche or created and that all goes into what jason was talking about making the product. A little bit different. So it's really hard to find quote unquote. That billion dollar niche now. I'm not saying they aren't out there. But but you don't need a billion dollar niche you need you. Need a million dollar niche to have some success so those are definitely out there. Sure and you know. Michael going back to our coffee sessions that we used to have every friday morning at the issaquah coffeehouse one of the most fascinating discussions that we had there as we were getting to know each other. Was this idea of how. Rick turn these. I mean he took the george forman grill dude was a taco grill machine. So rick came in and turn it into lean mean fat grill and burger machine. Right any higher george foreman. I mean who does that right. And this is what his method was. He shared this with me. And i should probably let you say at rick. What are you telling the hotel. And then i'll tell the. I'll tell the comparable way that we thought. The process was the same that we were doing on amazon. Tell us how how you would go out and you would interview these real customers and how you would learn from them. Yes so this. This kind of covers a little bit of four and five always listen and authentic testimonials and michael one of the things i started doing when. We're doing a lot of television. Marketing is i. I would always have great success with a product that was already in the marketplace. Even if they were doing very little sales like ten thousand dollars or whatever as opposed to a brand new invention and one of the reasons for that is that i could go to their customer base. And i could line up these interviews with people and basically. I had a video camera rolling. I would interview ten to fifteen people. And basically i would hear the stories and i would ask them about twenty questions and you know. How did you hear about the product. What do you like. What are you don't like why. Why did you buy it. And after the end of that time after talking to ten people you start to see some trends and those are the things that you pull out from a marketing perspective and then you know it's better than any focus group you could ever do. 'cause he's real customers at bought the product that have spent money and then obviously the second part of that is. We're videotaping him. So now we have these testimonials that we could use in our marketing you know for our e commerce are website marketing are testimonials on television commercials. Or whatever and we won't go down to whole rabbit hole of testimonial. But i really think they're one of the strongest marketing things. There are amazon. Uses they just call them. Reviews hypothetic- but jason. Jason was saying. Why do the same thing. But just a little bit different. Yeah rick saying this to me. And i'm like my god. That's the same process that we use to find blue ocean products and categories on amazon. We read all the bad reviews from the bestsellers and we identify where the opportunity is in given subcategory. And i was like it's like it's the same process. I didn't have a camera. I wasn't sitting. Live with folks. But i i would go through download and read all of the negative reviews for every air hockey table. Second page of search results. That's an important point when emphasize you read the bad reviews. Because that's your opportunity. Yeah you read the bad reviews for years to it. I'll tell you another good reason to read the good reviews for your own product but but the light bulb went off for me michael amazon. Yes that's the same process. And i asked at one point. How do you feel about these expensive focus groups and he was like oh they don't work and he told me this great jay story about how they'd spent millions of dollars following the advice of focus group focus group members who had never purchased and use their own money to buy. The product had never really experienced the product and given bad advice to the merchandising marketing team. Yeah so you can avoid all of that by reading the bad reviews from the customers. Not only so that you can develop so that you can start a product from the ground up that solves the problems that are existing in the marketplace from products on amazon. That are doing really really well in sales right and then the second piece of that is you can use that fix that you put into your product and make that part of your benefits messaging when you do go enlist the product on amazon. You're already telling people in your infographics in words your additional images. Hey my product solves the problem that these other bestsellers are having so come by mine and by the way you're gonna cost you a little bit more but you're not going to have that problem that the other guys have so. That's that's where you go find the blue ocean on amazon. That's one of the ways right and then and then just one one last thing. Michael new york notice but a lot of the things that jason i are talking about. There's kind of a parallel strategy. There's your amazon strategy but there's a lot of things you can't do on amazon. You have to do those on your e commerce website but the war that those two things can work together. The synergy between the two is the will help make you more successful on amazon so you can really get into the origin story. You can do a lot of the things that we're talking about here and it'll benefit what you're doing on amazon so it's kind of like a dual strategy and we talk about that in a book as well mason. While there's so much. I mean first of all the whole thing forget about focus groups just talk about people who paid money reminds another quite from the four hour workweek i. I don't have shares in the book. I wish i did now. But he said something like don't ask people if they will buy awesome to buy. Which is the difference between. Do you like this product and great about ten of them in the car. You want one. So is not quite the same thing but it comes down to the value only paid money so by definition they are actually worth knowing their opinion about because then other people will share their opinion also spend money rather than focus groups as he site so i really liked that and deal very thorough jason downloading reading all the reviews on pages one and two. This is probably. It's not new advice to reach vs. Goodness knows the thoroughness of that. On the belief it. I think is is a different thing. It's it's a gold mine. I just want to mention one thing. Real quick michael for your listeners and i have a email template like a six step emails that you send out to your database to solicit authentic testimonials and. That's something i'd give away for free. And if they just emailed me rick at rick's xerri dot com. I'll send that out to anybody for free. That wants it. Pathetic will yes. I think anyone saying right now should be putting your hand off to get that as we would say talk about. Y'all absolutely yeah. This is great. What i really love about it is. This is not jason. You sold on amazon for seventeen years and long years much out of it now. Today's but yet you'll very very passionate about this. I can hear that the excitement of the synergy between your collision of a set of tea slightly different yet very similar underneath world. So this is amazing stuff. Tell me then the next thing that i've got to get out another five five-step thing we've the the inside liberals this is intense steps at five steps for finding essential steps of finding a winning product. I mean that's obviously the thing that everybody in. The world is obsessed with so jason. You've got to answer that one. Assure so i'll sort of paraphrase those steps we when we're sitting down and writing a book we ask ourselves. How do we. How do we know how do we. Our readers know where to start with the new product. Now that's whether you're a brand new seller you've never sold in your life or you've already got an existing company and you want to start thinking about the next skew for your skew pipeline right. How do we how do you do that. And so you know one of the things that we did my brothers. And i when i when i left the marine corps. I'm sitting there at the family dinner table. And we're saying what kind of business should we get into. I was adopted into my jewish family. I call them here in los angeles and you read my story right chapter two. I was in a in a good place in my teens. I got invited to a family. Dinner on friday night on a on a shabbat at this wonderful family of the clerks and feltz here in los angeles. And you know i i showed up and it really changed my life you. I talked about the story. About how how that happened. And we sat down at the dinner table and everyone's talking about their stories. The kids think their mother for everything that they did for them that week and we start having these stories in. I learned that for from the time. The sun goes down friday night till the time. The sun goes down saturday night. The kids couldn't play video games. They couldn't watch television. They just hung out together and one of the things that they did what we did. Was we played. We played backgammon. We played ping pong. We played basketball out in the court and so it was it was. It was a life altering experience for me. I just invited myself every friday night. And every saturday from you know every every week after that became part of the family and they sort of unofficially adopted me but fast forward ten years. I'm leaving the marine corps. I'm coming back. Let's start a business and we asked ourselves. What should we do and we said why. Don't we do what helped us become closer as a family. Why don't we sell the same products that brought us together as a family and that was our inspiration right. That was our story. And so yeah. We sold foosball tables. We sold the ping pong tables. We still basketball hoops. Because we're huge laker fans and we wanted to. We wanted to share that experience in. You know so. We studied the products and we shared that with the customer. So that was one inspiration for me and so one of the things that we say in the book is when you're trying to come up with your next product or your first product. What moves you right. What is it that you're passionate about. What is it that you know. More about a product category than anyone else. you know. Maybe you worked a high school in highschool you worked job and you've got to learn a product line because you're selling shoes or something you know some sort of product in a shoe store. I worked at a speaker shop something that you have some base of knowledge about. It's a little bit more than the rest. That's the starting point. And when you go through that sort of discovery process and find product that you're passionate about and one of the reasons we like to say be passionate about it because it's hard work michael right. We're talking we're not. We're not hiding the fact that it's going to take a lot of your time. Treasure and energy to build the next great product in the category. Want to be in so you wanna be passionate about it because that extra passion will get you over the finish line right but then the next thing that you want to do. Is you want to validate that product. Just because you're passionate about it if you go on amazon and you find the best sellers in that category are doing one thousand dollars a month in sales. I'm sorry you may be passionate about that product. Don't do it because you're not gonna get your money. Back are your time and treasure back from the investment. So fine what moves you. Find something that you know a little bit about an and maybe something that you know. You're buying a product. Now that leaves you wanting that's not quite right but you your passion about this category and you you think if you just change be it would be so much better right. Bring that to market but then take a look on amazon. And you can. Use tools like your. Your audience knows these tools. Helium ten jungle scout. Use that old nine ninety nine checkout trick go to amazon. Search your category. Find out if the product that you're passionate about has a market if there's no market your time and energy those are the first the first two important pieces is i would say does that. Does that make sense. Michael absolutely make sense of and he's very much more baked begging anybody. He's trying to work with me from scratch to like. Please do something you know about and care about as you said. I think seth godin said something like it's about hockey. I presume ice hockey 'cause in buffalo and there was and he said something like a car the first two things well but he said you gotta care enough to get hit because you will say you could actually care enough to be willing to take some knox and keep going. I think it's actually a very business like thing to to to go for the has both got a market and everyone's obsessed with the latest on software. So i need to big up it up. You gotta validates it of course but will sites on the you care about is less common and i think that's actually not a business like decision. It sounds counterintuitive. 'cause passion to do with the rational businesses decision. Well if you don't survey at for twelve months or fifteen months during the development phase you never going to know whether it's gonna make you serious amount of money or not because you'll never get point so for me. It's rational thing. Yeah you summarized that much better than i did. Michael ample and i don't know if you want to mention it but jason has a great client. You know that's passionate about pets. And they have a niche telecom about the what what they sell online which i would never think in a million years would be a business but but it is. Yeah i mean it's it's incredible. It's it's it's an incredible company. Walking pets is their name know. Gee just walk in with an apostrophe pets and they built these dog wheelchairs for pets who've had accidents. And you know what. I was a kid. You put down a dog like that and these folks came to the market you know mark the founders just so passionate about this he extending the lives of pets am by the way when we took them over as a client. We came back and said what's the benefit of your product. Happy healthy pets but also happy healthy owners right so we put that messaging together. And i mean these guys. Every single day are finding use cases. Where a pet has been injured in a different way. And they're out there designing a product to help that pet live a longer happier life. It's just i mean. Give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside. Michael you're having coffee. And i said hey jason. I got a great idea. I'm gonna start a business. I'm gonna sell pet wheelchairs. The somebody would probably laugh in your face. But the the pre people are passionate about it and they have a thriving business now. That's funny because i happen to live around the corner with from a place which had been on. Tv where they'd created something along those lines and it was pretty. Tv is years ago and the landlord turned out to be one of the helped. Develop that stuff. So yeah it's it's a it's a neat little thing that actually is full of of emotional connection took about emotion people in their pets especially dogs doesn't dotson emotional thing on you pretty much pop saving your child's life. I think the second biggest thing. I've seen people motivated by britta pretty soppy about that dogs as well here is is to do something feel pets. So that's a super smart emotional drive. Is eve again. It comes out so if you care if you fake carrying to. Somebody ready casbah dogs or children. You've probably had it if you really care then makes for a really wonderful thing unless you said warm fuzzy feeling like the most positive code of amazon selling story. I've ever had actually have to say so. That's quite amazing. That's that's definitely you've got to be the way to go. well this. This is a wonderful sort of warm fuzzy thing. I'm kind of tempted to leave her on that. What should i ask you. That is a huge book. That's what i say huge very readable. But it's a lot of solid content. What things should people know that it really essential to not think in this modern amazon era. If you're either expanding your brand or even if you starting from scratch that we have mentioned so far well we've covered a lot of ground in a short period of time. Haven't we michael. I mean you know. I think the thing to know. And maybe this is a nice segue to talk about some of these aggregates that have had so much. Excess is the margins on amazon tightening right and when i first started all the way back in two thousand and three it was like the honeymoon wild west because we had plenty of blue ocean space. We keep referencing this book by the way rick. We're competing with that book and that cat and our category amazon. So we're we're trying to catch them right now. We've got a ways to go of our book. I'm gonna stop plugging blue ocean. Because i want to pass them as a best seller in our category on amazon. But you know one of the things. That's become sort of a necessary evil. We like to call it in the book amazon. Advertising and any anyone who's a a seller of any sort of significance on amazon knows that main street you know you're harking back to the brick and mortar days being on main street where there's all the foot traffic and also the you know the traffic where your sides can be seen where you can gain mindshare. That is the first page of search results and now amazon has changed to where it's a pay to play platform so you have to drive traffic on amazon two. You're listening and if you do not and you don't do it in an efficient and effective way you'll get left behind there's a couple of different kinds of placements that you can get on that first page of search results now and one of the whole top above the fold section of the first page of search results. Now pay to play so again. This goes back to our strategy. Michael have your own product. Have your own. Registered trademark brand name have brand registry on amazon. So that you can pay and defend your brand on the top third of the first page of search results. And if you're not doing that you're losing an opportunity. Rick mentioned this before if you're doing instagram ads facebook ads google ads. If you're doing direct tv if you've got placement in a retail location and you're not defending that sponsored brand ad place for all of your brand key words you are driving sales to your competitors pobably someone. You've never heard a brand. You've never heard their brand before right. Because they're amazon folks who know the game so having a really smart brand defensive strategy was sponsor brands and then also have an effective sponsor product strategy. See ads so that you've got more than one placement on that first page of search results advertising can help drive the search algorithm gets you to that first page for your organic free listings but when you can have that listing and prominent ad placement. That's when the magic starts to okay. So i mean i think you cannot ignore you know we. We have this quote. Henry ford cutting off advertising is like someone stopping time by turning off their watch you have to. You have to pay to play now on amazon and you have to be there and you have to have an effective strategy and we we outlined some of that in our chapter on ads. I love that. Henry ford quote by the way. That's fantastic already like that rick. Have you got anything to add to. That intensive sort of branding angle woman go to two things. One is really high level. And i think amazon in order to increase revenues. Is they're going to keep coming up with more advertising opportunities and some of them you know they're just going to kind of copy. What people are doing out in the marketplace and so also i have to say about the advertising is is really get familiar with direct marketing. Direct response marketing principles. So that you can make your advertisements more effective and you know there's a whole thing you know about brand advertising which is about awareness versus direct response advertising which gets people to take action so we could spend a whole episode talking about this michael. But just be thinking when you're doing your advertising if if you can follow a direct model where the end action is getting people to go. And click on your the by box for your product and you'll and you'll have more success and then the other is more micro and we didn't really get into it but we we get into it in the book and that is really and again. This isn't a new subject but it's about optimizing listings. And how do you make the listing. Do better and i'm always really amazed. I can go on amazon right now. Go to a major brand that selling coffee maker and you see an image. That's like the front view of the coffee maker the side view of the coffee maker. And there's no people in there's no there's no info graphics in in the end jason and i are really big believers in making each product image on your listing to say. Let's make it a magazine at that. Each listing jumps out at you and you really focus on putting infographics on there and a good example. We do in the book and it for client ajay's into coffee maker again. It's a commodity. There's zillions of coffee makers out there but the very first image on on for one of the coffee makers ajay's is helping do as isn't even a picture of the product. It's a picture of a woman drinking a cup of coffee and it's again that emotional appeal and then you look at any other products on there. Nobody else is doing that. So little little things like that. That can improve. It will prove you're you're listening in your conversions. We we talk about in the book and again we could spend a whole show on on those things. Unfortunately you have come on until before about eating in some detail about the when we chose about video out your video. Moxie book about the difference between brand of ties in direct response. And actually your idea of. Why don't you do both get paid undeveloped. Your brand right which is direct branding. Your your concept you'll be a words not making your ip that but also. I think you're right. What strikes is a blue ocean. Opportunity isn't so much picking the magical product is going to make you rich. It's is the fact that somebody listings at doing such a terrible job on spicy. Thank goodness for amazon is a first party seller because we've mentioned already how terribly they do it. That's a wonderful opportunity to do a better job. And it's actually still amazes me as you say that you look around and people who just putting a boring picture shop for product on a white background. Yes you've got to do that for the main image. You said he doesn't have to do that for nine boring images and and as you say about somebody drinking. I've got a coffee maker. i love drinking coffee. I don't really love the coffee maker. i love the drinking bit. Who just selling this is not the stake. It's pretty old school right. So the benefits. Not the features is nothing that you wouldn't get taught if you. I was taught that when i was trying to sell double glazing when i was kelly twenty nine year old and i hated the job i learned a lot about direct sales and that was one of the absolute basics and yet. Nobody's told that to the people out there. So i think i could just say of wrapping up on and the warm fuzziness of the dogs which still getting over. How wonderful teacher. Michael melody if somebody's a doctor versus anything else you like okay. So you win you win really dot worthiness of what you're doing but also the fact that there's so much opportunity given by such terrible marketing out there. I i love that fat seventies. Telemarketing is your opportunity. Yeah so yeah. I mean look mike all the way back up so i reco- head. I'm just going to say and let me give you an example of wire where price doesn't matter. I have three dogs. I knew jason was doing this project about two weeks ago. One of my dogs. It weighs about ten pounds for whatever reason decided to jump off of a picnic table. We were at the dog park well. She landed funny and she tore his acl on her leg and now she's walking around on three legs. So what's the first thing we do. I called jason. You know went to amazon. And believe me i did not care how much the leg splint cost i wanted the best legs splint that i could get for my pet and i was willing to pay. A premium price for a took dokes and babies are just wonderful. Markets davies by motion. He said having said that people should always put those in. The picture is positive. It's funny they say never work with children and animals as somebody. He's done a lot of teaching kids in the poss kind of attest to that. But when it comes to emotion vocation than you definitely them in say very basics here listened to me you take this wonderful conceptual stuff and making it very very kind of old school salesman here. So we up this up so you can go on and help other. People make millions and millions on on amazon and other places. Obviously you've got a book coming out of here. It's stephanie cool to the amazon jungle. So tell us a little bit about where people can get that and you know why they should buy it. How it's going to help them. Well sure you can. You can get it of all places an amazon dot com the amazon jungle it's rick's holding it up there and it's over my think it's your left shoulder my right shoulder and if you are one of those folks that refuse to buy from amazon there seems to be a growing crowd of those folks that are out there and you. You refuse to give amazon their money. By the way. Rick i said amazon makes money off more money than we do you. Can you can go to barnes and noble dot com and you can go to books a million so pretty much every bookstore out there is now carrying it so you know it's just we try. We try to just get right to the point michael. There's not a lot of fluff in. There is a little emotion. But it's important and it's important to the story in the path to success on amazon as far as we believe. Yeah enrique any final words about the book and what people can expect from buying it. Just you know if you're selling on amazon. I think there's information there that will help. You do better amazing. Well it has been a real pleasure as a real roller coaster ride as you suggest. We covered a lot of ground there. I'm left with the twin images of the wonderful opportunity provided by terrible foreing photography and those dogs. And you'll dog with. Its splint rick so don't get swell saying and it's been up sleep places. Have you both on at the same time. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Michael thank you michael. Thanks for listening to the elected. Podcast part of the family of amazing. Fb a podcast. Today's episode is sponsored by the new e commerce. Podcast the ecommerce leader. The podcast is hosted by yours. Truly and jason miles multi-million dollar shop owner and economies highest rated commerce instructor if you're the owner of thriving online business to become the best commerce lead you can be it's got your name on it for free guides and many courses on many topics go to. Www dot the ecommerce leader dot com

amazon jason hockey rick michael jason miles michel visi Jason boyce george foreman Panasonic kodak gopro Michael george forman Rick michael amazon salas Boyce
10.10.19 How tariffs are playing out; Watch out for crafty MLM's; What if your luggage gets damaged?

Clark Howard Show

35:21 min | 1 year ago

10.10.19 How tariffs are playing out; Watch out for crafty MLM's; What if your luggage gets damaged?

"Media viewing trends are rapidly changing Americans are watching more video content across more screens than ever before brands need to adapt to the changing habits to get their message heard multi-screen TV advertising can help and it's more efficient and effective than ever advertisers can select their target says are coming in just a week and these these new taxes will raise the cost talk you through what you need to do if you are traveling this Thanksgiving or Christmas so we the first decision concerned European airplane maker Airbus that makes its planes in the United States in Alabama I five percent tax for you buying butter from Ireland there's a long list of items and yes that's the power of TV get started today at comcast spotlight dot com slash podcast any five percent tariffs on them which are basically taxes that you and I pay as consumers and these new tax. I'm so glad you're with us here on the Clark Howard Show where it's all about you and your wallet as Clark -rageous moment man multilevel marketing how do you know when one is legit and when you're just having your wallet have a trade spat going on with Europe and there are a number of items that we have just slapped lines they're gonNA put a lot of countries in recession maybe even us and this one in particular is really fast waiting because there are international actions that the US has filed against Europe and Europe has filed against us so Airbus was accused by the United States and now has been validated by an international tribunal as getting cleaned out. I'm going to give you an example try to get you on the right path when you're interested in doing a multi level and coming up yet later of wines from Europe most winds twenty-five percent cheeses from Europe twenty five percent and a variety of other when you have a problem with an airline how in the world do you file a claim and actually get them to pay not easy I wanted thing to sell their planes to airlines including many airlines in the United States and Boeing is items will go up twenty five percent a lot of people love butter from Ireland but we're punishing the Irish with a twenty I am if you've listened to me rain period of time you know I hate trade wars I hate tariffs thing lead to economic using a similar action that the ruins not gonNA come out for several more months because Boeing also has been receiving what under international rules are illegal subsidies brand substituting even without thinking about it when we're buying something and an item we love is up tariffs on other countries so when when you shop the effect on you as an individual vigils is usually not very large and a lot of the other tariffs that have happened have raised prices so this is a very very messy thing when we start fighting with people particularly with our allies in Europe but for you to learn ideas so you can save more and spend less and don't let anyone ever rip you off speaking of which coming up in just a few minutes is that they affect you and me as consumers generally a lot less than you might think because we do what's called increase American employment and affected industries actually had the opposite effect and reduce employment and some of the industries targeted consumers the impact and this has been true through so much of the Hullabaloo how blue about tariffs last couple of years and the Europeans are going to be able to slap us with all kinds of tariffs about that and this is this is odd stuff but for you and me is is pretty small if you work in an industry that has caught up and trader trade wars tariffs all that you just gotta gotta gotta have that cheese or butter or wine or whatever this is a non event for you so yes my apprehension about it was that they've only been around since last year so I was wondering so if you can go earn more elsewhere and their FDIC insured go for it and I think I explained recently why in price we might not even realize we say I don't want to pay that I'll buy this item over here so the effect on us as it is absolutely fine for you to put your money in any of these online banks okay all right yeah that that was my main concern this on end goods that you and I buy like automobiles that are made right here in the United States have gone up around enough because is one that has been something concerned a lot of people say hippie with it well it's concerning online savings accounts can be very heavily affected it can cost you your job and the oddest thing from ally the tariffs that were put in two years ago they were looked at as things that would did on the bank rate survey will be FDIC insured and as long as you're not sitting there with more than two hundred fifty thousand dollars problem with that at all banks count on us being creatures of habit that once we've done something that we don't change it I just want you to know that for your own wallet this is really not a story you need to worry about or fred about unless l. a. q. for everything you do for everybody well it's my honor and it's great to have you here and you're asking me a question I gather that I've had one for about a year or two now and I received an email last week stating after straight was now going to be too that was coming just from the news and everything but I went to bank rate and found a bank on there was giving you money earning nothing and so there are more and more people who say no I don't WanNa earn nothing at all and they go to one of these online bank terry is with us on the Clark Howard Show Hi Terri Hi Clark say it's a real honor to talk to you and I'm a long time show some get up and go and go take their savings elsewhere knowing that most people won't do anything about it and we'll just leave their very there are so many of these online banks popping up and it's because the big banks that control half of all banking but you going from your two Oh to a two point four two you know if you have a substantial money in there that will mean a meaningful difference to you a two point four percent believe it was the best in the nation right now is something called vio or vio is at the one you saw that is the one sure of each of your passports on your smartphone and keep your passports in the safe at your hotel it to Paris Paris in March twenty fifth anniversary in February we bought tickets are half price toward the end of March liberal Sign of the place to stay I've been on all the major sites and you can go along even the ones that are not hotel chains wchs and get better rates Robbie's with us on the Car Coward Show Hi Robbie Clark Great Thank you robby you're headed and what you'll have at the end of the year and there's no consequence to you for bang copying and they don't even worry about it because so few people to it just put down your shirt into your pants salary then just have a few euros in your pocket maybe one credit card take a picture the tourist areas of Paris which are true a lot of other tourist-oriented cities but just happens a lot in Paris you can go to target and buy one individual neighborhoods in big cities and producer Chem just pulled up for me in Paris AIRBNB has descriptions of twenty nine herself and had been around I think it was like two and a quarter or two and a half percent at one time so I and they all have pros and cons majority of them have the same cons as I do pros but it's the problem is where state where like eight dollars or buy one online for somewhere between five and ten dollars and goes around your neck strap goes around your neck and the pouch you'd airline of April first tickets almost double now that is exciting you get to celebrate your twenty fifth wedding anniversary One thing I will tell you see you don't mess up your anniversary trip have money pouch because a lot of pickpockets and is states have decided that they don't need to pay any interest people that's why they all pay pretty much zero and they just dare their customers hotel by is whether they feel safe in a neighborhood and like the neighborhood's proximity to the main tourist attractions you're going to want around the world even if you're not using them to book a trip Airbnb Dot Com has a thing where it describes give you some some strategies for you to find what you're looking for so in big cities the bill well here's here's my main question is I've got a good deal on the flight we're going into march because it'll be not so cold but it's not a part of this equation is trip advisor that when you're looking at an individual hotel and you're thinking you know I would really like to stay I think in that hotel let's somewhere else but when you when you're looking it's really hard to say okay I'm going to be in a spot where everything's going to be sort of close spanks her own bank raid including that one if they're all safe to put my money into as long as they are FDIC insured which any bank only saw the list of neighborhoods and it's quite impressive but how do you not neighborhood is where you're supposed to be all right so that brings me the second if you go look it up on tripadvisor you'll see if the hotels really any good or not based on the ratings and you'll also read if you go major neighborhoods in Paris and you can read through them and see what feels like you and what doesn't feel like you we and then I was wondering is is it any big deal to go from bank to bank you know that's paying the highest centers for or not double booking and then two weeks before you go go read my briefing on how to shop for a hotel I'm priceline and is it just didn't look at major hotel chains when you're going over there not necessary at all and read extensively the reviews of a hotel you'll be able to see what people like and don't like about and one of the main criteria people judge is just great and Paris have you ever been to Paris no it's a great destination I mean it's really really fine this or higher you're going to have a great hotel that's number one number to book a hotel right now that's refundable so much it's hard to make a decision and you think well I'm GonNa make a wrong decision and you know you're not GonNa make a wrong decision all right let me tell you some things if you stick to because the rates you're seeing now are higher than are going to be available close to your anniversary trip but you're going to be nervous I can tell vo- care will they've now been busted by the feds for misleading people about how much money they'd make and now for extra money for Christmas shopping are really keen on joining multilevel marketing organizations son who really surprising but also there are so many crooked ones one that was really popular for awhile was also neighborhoods and locations imply daunting so Florida to go and start looking and you you just see so but even though there are legitimate multi-levels most of them most people lose money in shared how much money recently was he is a hotel. Today's car courageous moment is just an early warning system something happens every fall people looking audience and geographic areas and deliver their ads with minimal waste comcast spotlight helps brands put their message in front of the right audience on any device look at Airbnb if you really feel like you're going to be out in about most the time stay in a hotel I've done both my preference for me and will not be a legitimate business opportunity grabby here on the Clark Howard show where it's about you learning ways to keep more of what you meant can you tell if you don't do a lot of traveling how do you tell where you're gonna stay isn't a good spot because you might find somewhere that's close to the Eiffel Tower you might find some more to tripadvisor hotel rated four and a half circles was almost non knitter five circles and are rated four stars quote unquote distributors but the distributors really didn't make any money from product they only made money from recruiting other Pe- I see so it's a methodical thing where you just right take notes because you'll get overwhelmed pretty quickly as you try to cross reference hotel gene level the FTC complaint Federal Trade Commission complaint says that people pay thousands of dollars to buy inventory and become at under one hundred and twenty five dollars a night two weeks out or less since you mentioned them to recommend a hotel as opposed to AIRBNB you know that's really a lifestyle choice that's a personal choice if you like the idea of having your own kitsch and then being able to stretch out your own living room rangers or is the real money made recruiting other people if the real money is made recruiting other people then it crosses the line generally maybe doing that well I want you because you don't travel at go ahead and do the research I'm talking bout book the best guess you can on where you'd WanNa stay that's a refund apple and that is the key smell test with any multi level is the money made from selling product or service destroyed AAC CLARK DOT com is our main website cart deals dot com is where you find bargains deals all through the day and night some of the they have to pay a hundred and fifty million dollars in penalties for the money they took from people promising big earnings in since normal kind of adventure for you waiting till when I would wait which is really close to departure so bull recommend it go look at the price line listings and more often than not you'll be able to get a really high end hotel four or five star hotel else we post now our travel deals and if you buy one of those deals and you're going to go somewhere so many people traveling for Thanksgiving Christmas new years and many people who travel through the Thanksgiving New Year's period is the only trip by air you'll take all year people to avoid high checked baggage charges I do not check a bag period I don't do it I won't do it that's why you always WanNa have something that you can take with you with electronics. Whatever I have a backpack being known by you it's important that you have your Madison's electronics spare pair of glasses that will fit and I have a micro Kerry on that I take anytime I fly doing what they've continued to do through prior holiday seasons and all year long you can check two bags free last year the three full fare airlines American united and Delta and the Mid Price Airline Alaska and your tickets non-refundable no matter what and they will give you more often than not united and basic economy and whenever I fly allegiance spirit or frontier because with all of them a carry on bag more people flying very compressed periods of time the airline systems get strained and so you don't want to be in a position whatever you know Gosh if you had everything in your carry on they take it from you and they lose it you may not even have a toothbrush I mean Konami and so if you are shopping for fares almost always what's going to pop up if you're looking ninety percent of the time be taken from you and you won't pay for it to be checked but it'll be put in the belly of the airplane so with that if you wear prescription glasses one set of clothing anything you're going to have to have if the airline loses your bag you have to pay and pay dearly for so you got to know that check bags now it's very hard for most particularly at American united and Delta was going to pop up or going to be these basic economy fares which on united have all started doing a big push selling what is generally generically called by some airlines actually what is called basic were they take your bag away from you and then there you are without the prescription you're supposed to take three times a day or and you can bring a carry on and you can bring a personal item like a backpack so all that free and that should be away I rent skis now when I go because it's cheaper in most cases than paying for the baggage charges and you should know that southwest is still seaming get you a carry on bag permitted on the American United Delta Not Allowed to have a seat assignment bag scout lost more often from Thanksgiving through New Year's period why because the weather can be more iffy and when airline started going to charging I own my own skis they were older I gave them the center seat it's just the way it is you'll board last if you have brought a carry on that carry on will probably centered as you're buying some if you do need to check bags being able to fly on southwest if they serve where you're going to and picture one travel blogger is so obsessed with this that they always take a picture of their boarding pass at the time they're checking along with what I've been telling you recently about staying in a hotel staying in an AIRBNB renting a car use your smartphone to protect yourself taken it's just a massive money savings when you do check a bag this goes bag so there's no question what bag they had another travel blogger always takes a picture after they packed bag but before they close it so that if the bag goes missing airlines will fight you hand to hand combat not literally but figuratively overpaying you for the missing contents and deny that you had this set or the other that's why the suitcase before you close it is a really great idea but the outside as well because if they damage the bag airline idea of taking a picture of your suitcase before you close it is really important if it's never found again and you're having to make a claim who's big money is at stake deep in airline has to pay you big money now if your bag goes missing and you can document what you had in it because have hundreds of the document was the maximum amount you can claim now and it used to be just nothing and so now the airlines are we'll say well proved to us it wasn't damaged before you checked it with us how are you ever going to do that and that's why the fighting you every time you make a claim and saying how do we know you really had that purse or how do we know you had that fancy pair of shoes or whatever so taking a picture of your idea from a blogger of taking a picture with the boarding pass most trips are gonna come off just fine but when you're booking winner travel more possibilities of getting to where you're going in the event there's weather problems equipment problems or whatever when you a few weeks ago came to me and asked me if he could borrow out of his five twenty nine college fund to learn about book yourself for early in the day rather than the last flight out you see all those people sleeping airport terminals in the winter particularly being a holiday is because they didn't book the first or early flight out Allen is with us on the Clark Howard show Hello Alan or cold weather season travel unless you hate yourself don't book the last while the day book early in the day because that gives you first of all I've never heard of any day trading system where they put their money hey good afternoon to

Europe United States Clark Howard Airbus Alabama comcast Ireland Kerry twenty five percent five percent twenty fifth two weeks two hundred fifty thousand dol fifty million dollars twenty five dollars twenty-five percent ninety percent
The Information's 411  Xanny Do

The Information's 411

22:51 min | 1 year ago

The Information's 411 Xanny Do

"Everybody the intermissions Ford. One year weekly podcast brought to you by the reporting team at the information. This is Tom Dotan your regular host. We've got two parts of this episode today. I I'm talking to Jessica two-goal. She had a big feature today about Sander, the addressable advertising division inside AT and T. This is basically AT's gamble to take on the digital advertisers like Facebook and Google in using their data and television inventory to create a massive advertising powerhouse and Shaq. It's not going all that. Well, this is a strategy. That's been attempted several times by other non tech companies and always seems to run into a couple of snags. So Jessica profiled the latest ones happening over AT and T that I'm talking to Kevin McLaughlin about apple and Amazon and cloud storage. Apple has begun to move some of its business away from Amazon in a bid for at least a little self sufficiency. And it speaks a lot to the state of cloud. These days. And how some companies try to go it alone other companies or reliance on the public cloud and some people are somewhere in the middle. Or does the story talking about the Sepah sewed? Let's get on over to Jessica too. Richest one of the long-suffering strategies kind of in the mobile world is trying to use their data in order to be competitive with the digital companies like Facebook, and Google and AT and T is sort of the latest attempt or of this strategy and in the store that you publish today. It looks like it's really really struggling. So I mean before we get into the specifics of Zander and all the stuff that's gone on internally at AT and T and Warner media. Maybe if you could just explain from abroad level, what is the promise of targeted TV advertising. Okay, promise of targeted or addressable advertising, which but AT's ultimately going for is that you, and I could be watching the same show in our homes, but you would see an ad for one kind of car, and I might see at nother kind of car that I looking to buy its individual household. Liberty one on one advertising people have been trying to do this for years AT and T part of their argument for buying time. Warner was we're gonna have this rate premium contents and our eighteen data and the set top box data that we have through our direct TV satellites we're gonna be able to really do this and helped industry compete with Facebook and Google. So I mean as the go down the path to putting this together problem store to crop up almost almost immediately. I mean. Let's talk first about just the attempt to try to get other TV networks on board. I mean what what was the strategy there? And what happened as AT and T tried to do it? So there will they're still trying to do it. Right. They need TV networks onboard because TV networks of the ones that have the ad inventory. Right. So when you see watch show an hour long show. Two minutes of those ads are coming from your cable or satellite operator riots for me. It's spectrum the rest of it. The sixteen to eighteen minutes is owned by whatever channel network. The media company owns that network. Whatever it that comes from them. They are one selling it making money. Right. So most of the ads come from the TV networks, so it's crucial that AT gets deals with the TV networks, but thing is like AT and T doesn't wanna let the TV networks cellar, which is a huge sticking point. Because the TV networks. Have been selling ads since the beginning of TV ads. They don't wanna give up control. They wanna be able to do it. They don't wanna give up the relationship with the advertisers. So that is like a completely like non starter win every TV network. I've spoken to. The other part of it is to eighteen says, okay. You don't wanna do it with? They're trying to do. Now is basically pressure that heating at works to signed deals to give them some of their ads spots through their Parag associations. I'll remember direct as one of the biggest distributors of TV. You know, there's having very aggressive negotiations with the TV networks. Oh, saying if you want us to carry your channels on direct TV, you need to give us some of your Atta, Victoria. But even there they're not really having reut right in. I mean, the like you're saying they have the leverage. But I guess it's just not enough to be able to to push this across the line. So this is what I'll say, yes. I mean, not yet. So they just had to deal with Viacom, right? And that was very closely watched negotiation, the ams news leaks that by Viacom did sign a deal. And but as our store in my story shows, it's not there's no TV Dettori part of that deal right now Joe banner ad the Dory. So. TV networks are just not playing ball right now. Now that could change in aging tease hope is that they're doing some of this targeted advertising not address book targeted advertising with the former Turner. Now Warner media now so with the hope is that people are going to see them be so successful with that. If they are going to wanna play off. I mean, one of the elements of this that I find fascinating is that in following, you know, the rise of digital companies in the fall of TV networks and their ad rates. Intern is that they really see I think the United in their belief that Facebook and Google and all these kind of big digital media companies or an enemy of theirs. They really are pulling money from TV ad budgets to extent at least or they worry that it's going to happen. So you would think there would be a United front or they would need to be some sort of United front and there've been attempts in the past to do this. I mean, it sounds like your story touches on this. You know within the con-. Next of AT and T, but why isn't there better collaboration across other TV networks and TV companies to pull their inventory together use their data and try to say in a United front combat digital media companies. Is going on. So you have the cable companies Comcast is majority owner of MCC, which is with charter Cox. And that's like something like it believe it's forty five million households. So they're doing something. Then you have the TV programmers that are doing things with what's called open AP. The problem is any the TV programmers interests and the cable operators interests are not alive. You are things apply. Ration-? But this is only gonna work if everyone comes together, right, right? May just hasn't happened yet in the way that it probably needs to. All right. Let's go inside AT and T for a moment as they're trying to put this together. So the person that is the spear point or the tip of the spear for AT and T and trying to pull this off is this is this executive Brian lesser. What can you tell us about Brian? So Brian is he's a seasoned digital advertising executive. He was with that a team is on the board of open AP. He was wig group am, and you know, he understands digital advertising I think he understands buying advertising. He's not a TV guy. So when he was first tapped as to head up this Andhra business ramble Stevenson, hire them he reports. Randal Stevenson, some folks at Turner were like, that's interesting. He's not a TV guy. Then the first thing that they do after the deal closes the deal being after eighteen by Time Warner is they bought app nexus, which is a exchange to buy and sell ads, but it's primarily digital banner ads. Which is fine. But everyone was like, well, if you you're talking about creating this targeted addressable advertising machine, why is this the first thing you're buying? By the way, that they thought at nexus as technology and ability to crunch data was going to be transferable to television jenness, g things. One is banshee. She the engineering resources that they bought a team. I believe it's four hundred engineers that would comment build up the video and be able to, you know, do that rather than just starting from scratch and sure there's something definitely to be said for that. But it's you know, it's not an easy process. This is going to be it's really hard. The second thing is I think Brian let me my understanding stores Brian lesser had hoped that he was going to be able to do tack on after this happens after at nexus to help build up the video capabilities and given eighteen debt levels that was not the case notes with the story. Also in parts resembles the sort of frequent mean, we have in the tech world where you know, a old line company buys a digital company. And the integration process doesn't go. Very well. I mean within app nexus is that what you sort of happening too is just a clashing of of cultures and executives. After they bought up nexus bright o'kelly's the CEO about next. Brian was the job Ryan loss on the board up next those? You know, an AT plants is huge. Conference in Santa Barbara, the Ritz Carlton, we're gonna unveil Andrew at those and like within days before the conference brought in Brian Kelly. I think he was supposed to speak or it was on the agenda often is off the agenda was kind of wondering what happened to have. Apparently, he'd left kind of sort of bitter falling out with Brian lesser over things. Like retention bonus. Getting retention for him in for his staff severance, and then all the way to you know, disagreement about the name of Zander, which is named after Alexander Graham Bell who I guess has some ties he's evolved in some studies having to the affiliate him with xenophobia. So goes deep deficit, right? Exactly. So he left right away. They bought his banner ad. You know, the people are like what's going on no-one consulted? Anyone Shurmur before they bought app next? Says so you know, that caused a lot of you know, lot of tension. Sure. A as you mentioned in the story, the president of Turner, David Levy who very kind of old timey been around the TV ad world for a long time. Not a huge fan of that deal. Now, he was not a fan of app. Nexus trauma had actually decided to cut ties without nexus. Just a couple months before eighteen Tepa, but Apmac says because it wasn't it wasn't performing at the standard that wanted see perform. So Tara folks, including David Levy, I heard was most local about those were very surprised and dismayed at the position. No, it sounds like, you know, with the integration process. A lot of the stuff is historical. And it's really only been the last month or two that we've seen the integration process of Warner media happening inside AT and T they put some new executives in charge of the as business. I mean, how are things shaping up in in the most recent you know, couple of weeks. So I had you know, they have their up fronts in mid-may. So I do get the sense that things are going smooth are. I mean the way. It's going to be there. The to have these to the issues to add sales, forces rights Turner, hasn't ads sales floors still worm you had stores and Zander has an ad sales force both wanna market, and so that's complicated. Right. Because the they're they've different PNL's, and it's not clear as to how long that structures in Alaska. My guess is that they're doing that? Because quite frankly, the turnaround sales for a snake plus money and Zander doesn't yet. So that's an issue. I also have to say I'm not clear how the top dogs are all getting along. Like, obviously David lease that down. But I'm not sure how one or media head jumps danke and Brian lesser with that relationships like ROY. And like you said Bryan doesn't report to him. He reports into a different executive at at AT and T, you know, I remember talking to people about Zander a couple of months ago, this is people in the ad buying world. And there was a lot of folk behind it, or at least they saw them as a real threat to Facebook and Google as someone that could consolidate a lot of inventory, how the targeting technology can really make go at it. No like, I said, this is a couple of months ago. I mean, as you reporting the story and talking to people in the media buying world. I mean, what's the senses are still a belief that there's real potential for this or people kind of wary and release stepping back and saying let's see if they can get their shit together. That's a good point advertisers are goalless. They're bullish Zander. They love. Love I mean, because what the promises compared to what other promises of the made to them. It does seem like it's the most compelling, right? It's not a consortium which has prevent from the old days of the canoe, Sean, which was the first to try to dress the ball like, so they think okay. Will they won't have that kind of messy mess, and they have the mobile data on top of the TV data. So yeah, that's really interesting to us. It's just a matter of execution if they can get the TV networks onboard wrote wrote in a lot of that stuff is still up in the air. What are you looking for next, by the way? I mean, what do you think for people paying attention to this will we'll give a clear signal as to what direction this process is heading. You know? So they're having are up front mid may. I think it'll be really interesting to see what they announced what that announcement actually me. And I think people have to like kinda dig in. If they say the head deals with TV networks, what kind of inventory does that really include? I also interested to see what happens with some of these consortium like open, a P off launched a competing product competing marketplace yesterday, they announced it it's supposed to come out. I think in the fall, but Okinawa Ps members are all going to allow consolidation themselves. So interested to see what happens with that as well. You're for sure we'll lots of pay attention to Jessica thank you for taking the time and digging in the trenches of Zanny, and we will we'll be watching. We talk about the clash of giant tech companies one of the things that I myself really think about is kind of the clash between cloud services, especially when it comes to apple which we all know is huge consumer product and consumer facing brand, but has clearly a ton of needs in terms of cloud storage. And the story that you wrote with a mere Friday talked about the interplay between apple and Amazon and how much reliance apple has had historically on AWS and where that's going. So we can just get to the heart of the story here. So what did you an Amir find as you were looking at the kind of business that apple gives AWS every year? The key. Takeaway is that last year apple after many years of development and political battles internal turf wars was able to finally make some real progress in becoming self sufficient in the cloud. And what I mean by that is apple flip the switch on an internal storage system. That. Powers? I cloud and possibly other services. As a result. Apple was able to spend five hundred million dollars less on storage in two thousand eighteen then they spent on AWS storage in two thousand seventeen. Yeah. Yeah. And so this like you say was a years in the process project and something that apple had a mean assumingly wanted to do for awhile, right? Beat less be less reliant on the public cloud. Yes. And also more self sufficient in terms of you know, in some cases being able to use its own service to provide the best performance. That's the key thing with apple is that they want to have it served their services perform, well, no matter where users are in the world. Right. And so, but there's you know, there's another player in this picture here, which is Google and they've also been providing some sort of cloud infrastructure services for for Apple's. Well, right. Yes. For the past several years as well. Yeah. And one of the things that seem to have maybe, you know, spurred apple to become more self sufficient. Was a previous incident with Google and fire in their in their data center. Can you explain a bit about that? Yeah. Well, apple I think they had an agreement with apple sorry apple had an agreement with Google, and they expected their data to be stored in a certain way and later it emerged that Google was not storing data in the way that apple thought. And so that was one issue. And then the other issue was there was a data center. Fire and apple was lost some of its data temporarily for some of its users right was able to recover, but in the end there was some animosity between the two companies and apple kind of put its planned increase in spending on Google cloud on hold for awhile. Yes, sure. I can see why apple would be a bit frustrated by that. So the larger context though, is that there's been a lot of kind of dithering within the tech companies that are not explicitly cloud service companies or cloud storage companies. As to whether or not they wanna build versus lease. I know I write a lot about snap. And there was you know, years ago debate with when it was nap chat to bait about whether they should build up their own storage infrastructure or keep relying on Google cloud. And you know, the result for them was that they were going to stick with Google cloud. And now AWS, but there've been other companies that have taken a different tack. I mean from what you've seen. I mean, what's the kind of state of play right now with companies in terms of building your own infrastructure or or leasing it. Well, it was several years ago that dropbox became the first really high profile AWS customer to say, hey, you know, what we're gonna do it on our own. We're gonna pull our stuff out of AWS or most of it out of AWS and put it on our own cloud infrastructure, and at the time dropbox gained a lot of credibility and wore it sort of as a badge of honor in the industry that they were able to actually build their own cloud at scale, which is not easy to do. And it's also obviously expensive to do. Right. Right. And so. Apple seems like they've taken a middle tack. They're not like snap in which they're leasing their entirely relying on the public cloud. They haven't done the dropbox root of being completely self-sufficient. What's what's the thinking with an apple about their their stance? Well, right now, I it sounds like, you know, there was some camps that might have wanted to do it all themselves and other camps that felt that tapping into services from existing cloud providers would be the best way to go are understanding is right now apple isn't gonna go fully self sufficient. It's going to use cloud providers such as AWS and Google, which are the the ones we know it's using currently on an as needed basis in areas of the world where Apple's own service isn't the best option, and I mentioned this earlier, but it's all about storing the data as close as possible to users because of course, that would impact the speed of the service in your ability to, you know, do things more quickly, right, right? What does this mean for amp? Amazon though, I mean having apple as a less lucrative customer certainly affects the top line a bit. But are they worried at all? I mean is this something that they've you as a long-term concern? I don't think so I mean, it is a fairly sizable chunk of business that they are losing. But you know, this is storage. This is a very sort of undifferentiated part of the cloud infrastructure, stack as they call it. And it's also an area where Microsoft and Google are very able to kind of poach customers because you know, it doesn't take a ton of technical expertise, or or, you know, ability to move data around between clouds, I think this is why Amazon's more focused on things like database services, and of course, Google and Microsoft are as well, the real battle and cloud right now around database services. That's why you're seeing AWS going toe to toe with oracle with trash talking between the camps. So to answer your question. Yeah. I mean, it's not great that Apple's moving stuff out of AWS. But. Certainly, no great concern. I wouldn't think for them. So one of the things you were talking about before we started recording the podcast is that the apple story is in some ways of validation for Amazon in terms of how much of a head start that they had in the space. Could you explain that a bit? Yes, our understanding is that apple did build a lot of its own cloud, infrastructure storage, and sort of gains expertise there. But they also realize that it didn't make sense for them to recreate AWS. And that there were certain things that AWS will always do better than them. Right. Right. And and you know for for that reason alone. Apple will never probably be completely self-sufficient. All right. Kevin fascinating stuff. Thanks for joining. Thanks, tom.

apple AT Google apple Zander AWS Facebook Amazon Brian lesser Warner media Turner Jessica Brian Tom Dotan Kevin McLaughlin executive Ford
Tue. 04/09 - Google Cloud Next Announcements

Techmeme Ride Home

20:05 min | 1 year ago

Tue. 04/09 - Google Cloud Next Announcements

"The. Welcome to the technique ride home for Tuesday, April ninth twenty nineteen I'm Brian McCullough. Today. The headlines from the Google cloud next conference China seeks to ban crypto miners. Why ads on streaming services is the new hotness. And also, why roadblocks is the new hotness? Here's what you missed today in the world of tech. Google's cloud next conference started today. So here's a quick rundown of some of the headlines. Google cloud says it has partnered with seven open source projects, including elastic wrestler ABS and mongo DB to offer fully managed serves on GCP. In the coming months quoting venture beat that means a single user interface, including the ability to provision and manage the service from the Google cloud console unified billing one invoice from Google cloud. That includes the partners services and Google cloud support manage and log support tickets a single window who will also work with its partners to build integrations with native GCP services like stack driver, and I am validating for security and optimizing performance, and quote and Anthony Google's cloud services platform for managing hybrid clouds that spanned on Prem. Data centers and Google cloud. Officially came out of beta. And the big news was that it will run on AWS and assure quoting tech crunch with anthrax Google will offer a single managed service that will let you manage into play workloads across clouds all without having to worry about the different environments and API's that's a big deal. And when that clearly delineates Google's approach from its competitors. This is Google after all managing your applications for you on AWS, Azure. You can use one consistent approach. One open source based approach across all environments, Google's senior VP for its technical infrastructure. Urs Hoelzel said, quote, I can't really stress how big a change that is in the industry because this is really the stack for the next twenty years. Meaning that it's not really about the three different clouds that are all randomly different and small ways. This is the way that makes these three cloud and actually on premise environments to look the same and. Quote, and Google cloud run for open and portable service computing, which will let devs run stateless HTTP driven containers in fully managed service environments quoting now from venture beat cloud run, quote takes care of all infrastructure management, including provisioning configuring scaling and managing servers cloud. Ran autoclave scales up or down within seconds even down to zero. So you pay only for the resources you actually use what we're doing with cloud. Run is introducing a brand new product that takes Docker, containers and instantly gives you a URL or in tight director of service at Google, cloud explained. This is completely unique in the industry were taking care of everything from the top end of SSL provisioning routing all the way down to actually running the container for you, you pay only by the hundred milliseconds of what you use. And it's end to end managed end quote. There might be some more things announced this afternoon. But that is the gist of what came across my transom at least in time to talk about today. China is home to the majority of the world's cryptocurrency mining firms and also the biggest minors, but maybe not for long China's economic planning body has suddenly proposed new rules that would ban all cryptocurrency mining in China the rules are under public consultation until may seventh quoting from the South China Morning post, the national development and reform commission. The end the R C on Monday unveiled amendments to its guidance for adjustments to the nation's industrial structure, including categories that are encouraged restricted and eliminated. Crypto currency mining was included among the sectors to be eliminated. Immediately industries in the eliminated category include those seen as wasting energy or polluting the environment. According to rules enacted by China's cabinet in two thousand five investment and loans in those industries are banned. And during the elimination period authorities are allowed to raise electrobi- prices for relevant businesses to force them to close the manufacturing sale and use of products in the eliminated categories is also prohibited. China is home to some of the world's largest cryptocurrency mining firms data centers hosting the mining rigs, thanks to cheap electricity in the country's coal-rich Jin Jiang and Inner Mongolia regions in recent months. Chinese miners are known to have deployed machines in the southern Yunan, and sh is Juan provinces to take advantage of the even cheaper hydropower available there during the rainy season and quote. So this looks like a sky is falling moment for Chinese bitcoin mining companies like bit main at the very least since it doesn't look like the quote public consultation period means public debate. It looks like these companies might have to relocate out of China or just shut down completely. But is this a sky is falling? Moment for bitcoin. Many Greenspan a senior market analyst at e Toro a social trading network tweets. Maybe not, quote, if this band does end up happening, it is more likely to push BTC prices up than down the loss of cheap Chinese electricity would raise the mining cost which is net positive on price. It would also serve to kill the fear uncertainty and doubt that bitcoin mining is centralized and quote. Twitter has lowered the number of accounts user can follow each day from one thousand down to four hundred to cut down on spam and bought activity now to be clear. This doesn't limit the number of accounts. You can follow full stop. This just means that you can't go hog and in one fell swoop or one day follow nine hundred people. This move looks to be aimed at among other things. Those by followers companies those build followers fast companies and just spammers in general quoting tech crunch. Several companies had been offering tools that allowed their customers to automatically follow a large number of users with little effort this works as a growth tactic because some people will follow back out of courtesy without realizing they followed a, but the companies also offered tools to mass on follow the Twitter accounts of those who didn't return the favor by following the back. Other automated tools were often provided as well. Like once for creating those annoying auto DM's, for example, and quote, but a lot of people are asking why stop at four hundred. I mean, that's still seems like a large enough number that any legitimate user would never need to follow four hundred people in a given day, though, I do suppose businesses might need to follow their customers a lot throughout a day to respond to customer service issues via diem and indeed y'all Roth head of site integrity at Twitter tweeted, quote, so why four hundred per day and not one hundred or fifty eight or seventeen in short. We found that four hundred is a reasonable limit that allows people to follow the accounts they're interested in each day while stopping most spam, we found that nearly half of all accounts who made more than four hundred dollars per day were churning that amounted to more than twenty million dollars each day and a high rate of blocks and spam reports a clear signal that inorganic follows are super annoying and quote. So I guess this is just targeting the ability to spam at scale, but we'll still allow low level or work intensive spamming. All right. Let's take a look at another sort of company that tiny tends to like to buy. So if what I'm about to describe sounds like you need to talk to tiny. So let's say you've raised some money for your business. And you've built a good business with that money, a good business with serious revenue, and maybe some profits. But you know, at this point that you're never going to achieve venture scale ever since we entered this world where a billion users is all anyone wants to look at some darn good businesses haven't gotten the attention they deserve. But you're doing great, you're serving your product market fit. Like, you're supposed to it's just look those guys who invested in you, hoping 10x e just you're not going to be able to deliver it, and that's fine. That's what your business is. There's no shame in a profitable business ever. But your investors need a soft landing. You know that and you want to sell the someone who appreciates your efforts. That's exactly where tiny comes in tiny knows that. There are. Are thousands of phenomenal entrepreneurs out there who want to sell their business, but don't wanna deal with the brain damage that entails. They don't wanna freak out their staff. They don't want their business to be put at risk by short term oriented buyers who will try to pump up they don't want to answer to micromanage boards. So if this is you go talk to tiny tiny dot website, that's tiny dot website. And you can tell them Brian sent you. If you want, but whatever you do go talk to tiny. Quip was designed to make brushing your teeth more simple, affordable and even enjoyable. I've been using quip now for several months, and I kid you not I actually love it quip is an electric toothbrush that has sensitive sonic vibrations. Unlike other electric, toothbrushes that are too abrasive quip comes with a multi use cover that I've mounted on my mere. So that it's not taking up room on my sink. New brush heads are autumn delivered on a dentist recommended schedule. Every three months, and here's the key. For me quip has got a built in two minute timer that pulses every thirty seconds to remind you switch sides, you're supposed to brush your teeth for a solid two minutes. Every time this might be gross to admit. But I realize now that I probably never in my life brush my teeth for two solid minutes. Thanks to quip. I'm brushing properly for the first time. I am not making this up. I'm on the train here in the mornings now, and I'm like crime any my mouth still feels free. Rush. That's why I love quip and why they're backed by over twenty thousand dental professionals quip starts at just twenty five dollars. And if you go to get quip dot com slash ride right now, you'll get your first refill pack for free with equip electric toothbrush. That's your first refill pack for free at G E T Q IP dot com slash ride. As we have been covering. These streaming video worse we've largely been looking at the direct to consumer plays the over the top or OT plays. You pay me a subscription. I give you access to content, but that's only part of the television and video landscape. Right. Seventy billion dollars a year still goes to TV advertising to add supported plays. It's not like companies are just going to abandon a market that large and OT viewing only accounts for twenty nine percent of current TV viewing and only three percent of TV ad budgets. So there's room for growth here. And that's why there is actually a parallel competition to capture ad supported over the top or OTT. Video streaming quoting digital OTT based advertising hit two point seven billion dollars in revenue in two thousand eighteen which represents a year over year growth of fifty four percent, according to estimates from Magna global. That's actually higher than Magnus original estimates which projected OTT ad revenues to hit two point two billion in twenty eighteen Magnus revised. Forecasts include growth of thirty nine percent. In two thousand nineteen to three point eight billion and thirty one percent twenty twenty to reach five billion the two current market leaders in OT advertising, Hulu and Roku have already built sizeable. Add businesses who reached one point five billion in revenue in two thousand eighteen growth of forty five percent year over year, Roku, meanwhile, generated roughly four hundred sixteen million from quote platform revenue which mostly comes from advertising, and quote new entrance on the scene include YouTube, which has recently been crowing to advertisers about how more than two hundred million hours of YouTube content is watched every single day on big regular old TV sets. So obviously, the pitches bring some of your big old regular TV ad budget over here, and I think we've spoken before about Amazon. And the potential it has to do a pretty powerful ad supported streaming offering that could build off of what it knows about your buying habits. And then quoting digital various TV programmers are also investing in ad-supported OT CBS has a network of streaming apps which include three video streaming services for news, sports and entertainment news as well. As an ad supported tear for its CBS all access subscription service. These services combined generate hundreds of millions in annual at revenue for CBS, according to a previous digital story. Viacom, meanwhile, spent three hundred and forty million dollars earlier this year to by Pluto TV, a free video streaming service that offers more than one hundred linear program to channels. Viacom has been pitching Pluto TV to cable and satellite distributors as an add-on for broadband only subscribers a key part of icons distribution strategy. According to Viacom CEO, Bob back in an interview with CNBC after the Pluto, TV acquisition other key. Ad-supported? Video streaming services include Zumo and two TV as well. As branded services from TV manufacturers such as Samsung and busy. Oh, and this doesn't even include the virtual live TV services from Hulu YouTube direct TV and sling TV four years ago, the TV industry had the option of going slow. They don't have that option. Now said Scott, Rosenberg senior vice president and general manager of Roku platform business, quote, they have to follow consumers and those consumers are showing up on OT and quote. Fortnight might get all the headlines, but there's another game that has quietly become quite a hit with the kids. And I might not have to tell you that. If you have kids of certain age roablocks says it now has ninety million monthly active users up from seventy million just last fall, the company behind roadblocks was recently valued at two point five billion dollars. I told you about roadblocks wants when it raised a one hundred and fifty million dollars series f around in essence roablocks is a game and a game platform quoting tech crunch. The games themselves are built by third party creators, while roadblocks gets a share of the revenue the games generate from the sale of virtual goods in two thousand seventeen roablocks paid out thirty million dollars to its creator community. And later said that number would more than double in twenty eighteen it says that players and creators now spend more than a billion hours per month on its platform, and quote, I think when we talk. About roadblocks before I called it a little bit Minecraft a little bit open world game a little bit gaming platform and a little bit fortnight. And indeed the company behind RA black says that like fortnight robots is indeed seeing the same phenomenon where it's become a place for kids to go and hang out with their friends. Even if they're not actively playing any game. So a little bit social network as well. And finally today. Speaking of games back in October, the Google doodle team launched the first ever multi-player, interactive Google doodle as a game it was called great ghoul dual and it was a great success at the height of the game's popularity around Halloween. More than five hundred thousand players were playing in every five minute window. Great ghoul dual was designed to do what Google doodle does delight people a little bit. And also show off some of Google cloud capabilities that clearly Google has followed up on with their streaming gaming initiative. But people continue to be delighted by great ghoul dual at least a little bit. In fact, a lot of people are still playing the game today in April how and why well apparently a commemorative Google doodle page is still alive. So you can still play the game. They're still an active sub read at devoted to the game. There's a discord server as slates Mersa Martinelli a devotee of the game explains. Quote, the two minute time limit is ideal. If you're just looking for a quick break, even if the games competitive nature makes it so tempting to keep hitting the button to play again. And again, and again, the great ghoul dual also lets you host private matches, which I tested out with a few of slates finest gamers turns out it's equally entertaining. When you're playing one on one though, it may destroy friendships and professional relationships when you defeat a worthy foe by just three flames. Maybe you missed the opportunity to play the game first time around or maybe you play the game at Halloween, and then forgot about it. Either way as we enter the season of florals and Easter bunnies. It's time to dust the cobwebs off the great goal dual or rather to dust them back on and. Okay. So when I originally announced the weekend bonus episodes, I said, we could experiment with things like even a listener call in episode. So let's give that a try. I want you to send me any questions comments corrections topics for discussion excetera, this is your chance to sound off on any of the topics. We've covered make your own arguments about things share your own hot takes challenge, any of my assumptions or just ask for my opinion about anything something we've covered or maybe not covered. My preference would be to get audio of all of your questions like an old school radio Colin show. So I can edit in and make an episode out of it. I'd love to give you my Skype number for those purposes and have you leave voicemails. But I just learned that Skype does not allow you to save or export voicemail audio which is dumb. So instead what I'm going to suggest is use the voice memo app on your phone record a question call in or whatever and Email it to me at Brian at tech meme dot com. Try to keep your question to less than a minute. Maybe thirty seconds is preferred and let's use the convention made popular by the flop house podcast identify yourself as first name last name withheld. So I'd be Brian last name withheld. My wife would be Lisa last name withheld. And again, I'd prefer audio. So that I can edit your questions in, but I will take Email questions as well that I can just read we'll see whatever's easier or what people prefer, and as I say. This is an experiment. Maybe it won't end up being interesting. But maybe it will. So send me what you got at Brian B R I A N at tech named dot com. And we'll see if we can put together an episode for this weekend.

Google China Brian McCullough Twitter Anthony Google Viacom CBS senior vice president and gene Yunan OT Urs Hoelzel CBS Amazon dot
We Love the Subs

Rework

30:41 min | 1 year ago

We Love the Subs

"I have a file, on my computer that's apparently been migrated over many different file systems called quiz knows dot S, W F, which is a flash format Jonas, Downey is one of my co workers here at base camp. He heads up the design group and this file he's talking about quiz knows dot S, W F dates back to two thousand and four for those of you who haven't heard of quiz knows it's an American fast food chain, that makes toasted sub sandwiches. And if you were to open Jonas file you'd be confronted with a truly bizarre. Thirty second television ad. It's these weird mutant bizarre horrific looking monkey animals. Singing intentionally off key to you about sandwiches that are supposed to be appetizing. But like juxtaposed with these things that are gross almost. Do. This is an actual commercial that ran on national television. It features to animate furry animals with bulging eyes and a mouthful of bared teeth. One is wearing a black bowler hat. The other is wearing the kind of hat that old timey sea captains used to wear and it's playing an acoustic guitar. They're singing about quiz. No sandwiches while bopping around over footage of the subs coming out of an oven. Quiz knows. It's like this memorable horrific advertising campaign. It's almost an assault like in a way, and I remember just to seeing and be like, what the hell was that just happen? And I like immediately loved it. Sometimes there's these flash points, where weird underground stuff finds its way to popular culture and the mainstream gets a little exposure to it. Like if you like the early days of MTV, we're like that. Whereas all these people doing weird artsy stuff happened to find a venue was a crossover between that sort of experimental early internet flash based design with, like traditional TV advertising, like somebody took a risk like somebody quiz knows was like, yeah. We want those mutant monkey things to be our spokesperson for our sandwiches. Oh, hello? And welcome to rework a podcast by base camp about the better way to work and run your business. I'm Whalen Wong. And I'm Shawn Hyllner. It's been fifteen years. Years since this ad campaign. Aired on national television prompting a huge response, people wrote letters and called quiz knows corporate about the commercials either because they love them or because they were totally repulsed the ads became a national news story. The news cycle, eventually moved on quiz. No switched ad agencies and later entered a period of decline where it closed, a huge number of locations and filed for bankruptcy, but the ads with the strange atonal singing, critters those remain Connick, and like Jonas points out, it seems improbable that these commercials made it onto TV at all today. On rework the people behind the campaign, tell the story of how it got made. Jovic I make city stuff. Joel is the guy to think for this whole thing. So the first thing I ever did that might any money was this ritual, which was walkout how to do interactive stuff in flash. It was agreed of my head knowing times. Oh, something on each one thought to different obscenity, and you run your mouse over it on. It just was a cacophonous swearing machine to my Mayes, man like people really like to asked if I would do another version for company for like a thousand pounds, which is. Oh, well, people pay to do this. The Lee flash stuff was very, very basic. Because that's what we could do. I mean, there's a lot of the stuff about the style of that stuff, which is very of its time, isn't it? But will people maybe don't realize now is that it had to look that way because we were working with very, very restrictive bandwidths people were still on dialup collections unite on. There was a real limit to the amount of information you could get down the point. So we had to do it in the most condominum away to get it to work on the internet. This was the heyday of flash animation, when creative people were making very simple but often hilarious cartoons in games and sharing them in online communities. Julia's friends also messed around a lot with Photoshop for one of his creations. He started with a picture of tar sear, which is a small primate. With big is that lives in southeast Asia? Then, like a digital Dr Frankenstein, he made a composite image by adding is teeth and accessories. From other pictures I was making on the most with by taste in hats. The tell she has a pretty good pretty. Good candidates for that. He called them, Spang monkeys, and a couple of days after my them I went for few drinks with my brother. He will do a lot of songs with we came back to my place and just put it as she recruited on video camera, put the video camera will end. He was playing the guitar unawed just improvise the woods by looking at things around the room, really. Mortensen. No in the morning, you'd look back at what you go, and it was pretty dire. But that one I was still really funny on usually. So I'd I put this spoke monkeys on animation to them. And that's say, I'm not put it out and it was done in a day. I wasn't released petites. Do anything. I was up late one night. It's one of the things where you're just like cruising, the internet looking around this is tight Harper in the early two thousands. He was an art director at the Martin agency and advertising firm in Richmond, Virginia. Tie had stumbled across gills music video. We like the moon, the spun monkeys wearing their signature old-timey hats were bouncing around in front of a still image of a garden with purple hydrangea bushes and a stone bench. And I was like, there's so much wrong with his video, but I can't stop laughing. So I marked it is, like one of the things you drag deciding, like okay upkeeping that for something I have no clue what it is. But I'm gonna I'm just gonna make sure I have access to that tie would get his shot to use the spelling monkeys in two thousand and three when the Martin agency got the chance to compete for the quiz knows account Kerry. Fewer men was creative director at the Martin agency. They understood their target audience quite clearly in this case. And what made the work show. Interesting is their target audience, primarily was a guys eighteen to twenty four years old. And as an agency, and you love that target audience because their irreverent, I mean, they do stupid stuff, jump off balconies into swimming pools. I mean there guys at the Martin agency, different creative teams got to work tie was paired up with copywriter, Raymond McKinney, and immediately thought of the spun monkeys, and we like the moon, I pulled it back up, and I showed it to my partner to Raymond, and I was like, what about these guys, the other ugly, I get all that, but they're such unbridled joy in that song? We love the moon and he just kind of spells it out why they love it in just basic plain English, and it made them a door to us. So Raymond was like hell. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna try that. So we, we wrote one, we the original, we love the subs. And we had our creative director, we said, hey. Do we want to have a meeting? We think we might have some and they handed me a laptop, and they said, we want you to take a look at Trump Tower and they pushed play. And there were these weirdest damn characters I've ever seen in my life. Singing a song called. We loved the moon. I like to think that I've got an open mind as a creative guy when I saw these things, I have to say my head started to explode thinking Tien Raymond what the hell are you guys thinking? He took his glasses off and he rubbed the bridge of his nose and he put his glasses back on. I was like, oh, we're dead. You know, basically said to them look ok. Well, put it on the wall. That's what we say in the business, put it on the wall. In other words, tended up there and then keep working as in keep working on new ideas while they tended on the wall. But when I came back to days later, they had kept working, but only on the spunk monkeys. We just sat in a little dark room and just kept writing more songs. They blew it out. They. Turned it into we loved the subs. And they did TV spots and outdoor boards and digital and they just believed in the idea so strongly that when I sat down and looked at the wall with everything that done. I was convinced that this stuff is, is frigging. Awesome Sydney were able to get carry on board. Now, the hard part was going to be convincing quiz knows, we're thinking you know how the hell do we sell this? It's one thing to sell your creative director, it's another thing to sell business people. But we did we took the video, we loaned the Mon and we went to the campus of Virginia. Commonwealth university, and we found our target audience guys walking across campus. And we said, hey, will you take a look at something? So we handed them a laptop, we handed them headphones and we pushed play and we simply video the guys watching this crazy characters. Singing, we loved them. Oh. And they started laughing their asses off and they started saying this is fucking awesome. I love these guys fast forward to the presentation. We're now there with the client, you know, our count guys miss strategy guys did all of their work, and I said, okay, actually before my show you the campaign. Let's take a look at something I hit the button, and on came the video, no explanation. Just the video of these guys back to back, I after guy after guy, laughing their asses off saying things are awesome. You know, I don't know what they aren't that I fucking labrum clients had no idea. What the guys were looking at you. Can't watch a whole bunch of people laugh and not have it affect you. So they started smiling, but they were curious, you know, at the end they were willing to see something that's what you do when you're a presenter, you have to get your audience to want to buy the work before you even show it to them. You need to create infestation. So when it ended, I turned to the clients in the room and I said, one of those guys looking at I said, oh, I know you're next campaign, and then I push play one more time. So the clients could see the characters singing we love the Mon, and then we showed them how we could turn those counters who clearly their audience loved into a campaign where they were now thinking we love to SOPs. They were shell shocked. I will say that to their credit though. They recognized they were not the people that needed to be persuaded that it was young guys, a couple of days later, we received a phone call saying, not only do we wanna hire you guys. But we want prove produce that entire campaign. I mean you could you could have just knocked us over evening. We had to swing for the. We had to take a big risk a big chance, but even by our standards. The spun monkeys were out there. I mean way out there Kerry came in said, they're gonna do they want to do this, and then it was the question was how, so I had hurry up and find, like, you know, Joel site rather good dot com and simply sent an Email, that was like, please read this, it's not from some crazy fan, or somebody who thinks you're sick or whatever. And I find who I was and what the idea was and begged him what you would you be interested, would you please interested? And he almost wrote back it was like almost immediately. He was like, yeah, I'm really interested, a thing, if you making stuff yourself it has to be about making something that you, you'll still find funny. All if his comedy will ever made him, you're bidders, Blinn auto literature or any creative endeavor. It has to be something that you feel driven to Mike, right? Like it has to be for agents have one in that audience has to be yourself on that is the way you might truly interesting things. This massive difference between somebody citing a of this thing. You might can you do something like that for us, whether the creative powers with you. Pitching for job, people do, sometimes ask 'cause I've got an animation project, that needs doing, but it's a very sensible one, when that happens, a I'm trying to be quite honest, and say, on probably not the best person to do that, if he won't swish graphics. I've is something on just not the rowing going to do that. If I try and on Mike, terrible massive, it'll be horrible, of course, in this case, the Martin agency in quiz knows weren't remotely interested in slick graphics, or anything sensible. They wanted Joel's. Falsetto Spang monkeys with their bad teeth and old-fashioned. Hats to sing the praises of quiz. No subs. And joel. Meanwhile was in London working on other things, I was having annoyed mayor that, that point would wise because I was doing a TV show here, which was like, really quite a big deal to in into the amount of work ahead today. The production office was in a bison. And there was no fun reception on my fighting wasn't ringing, and they were trying to call me. In the end, I had to take some time off five at Christmas, and spend that time off doing this. The Martin agency, flew Joel his brother ale to Richmond Virginia to record the ads. He's just a great guy and he was seemed to me. He was thrilled to be here is we were to have him. It was really collaborative like we had to record sometimes like some of the song Feick eight nine ten times in a row just to get the speed up right? Yeah. Can you do it faster? Joel. He was so accommodating, he did not give up. There's one of the songs about with a says they have a paper and it was Joe with his voice basically beat as by the time he got to that his voice kind of gave out and bought him out. And I think that's what Raymond is just laughed. It was like most people would be like, all right. Let's try it again. And we were like now that one stays in. It's it's too funny. Yeah, it's a horrendous voice to recruiting 'cause it mode as you throw it like really to do it for few minutes. But to do it for luck. As is. But yeah, lots of fun. Wiz knows new Santa Fe trio selves with smoking, I defy LA for a couple of days because there was this one cinematographer, a DP director photography that quiz knows trusted with their food, and he had the oven in everything like to, to film, the subs. So we went out there. We're out there and shot that part of the subs coming out of the oven. I remember looking at a monitor and marking it up with a marker on the screen go on. Okay. One monkey here and one monkey will be here, and then composite altogether after it with Joel song, his animation, and the monkeys and stuff. And that was that it was really it was quick and fairly painless and in February of two thousand and four. The ads debuted in American television. There were a few different spots one where the spunky sang about we love the subs one where they sang about a coupon and one where they wore Viking hats and saying about how it would be barb barrack to eat a non toasted sub. Right now, we were told when it was going to run. So it's like may was on the right channel when I thought Ron. And I think that's when I finally believed that it was real. 'cause you keep waiting on something, especially like this, you keep waiting for some grownup somewhere to go. Okay. We're not running this who approved this, you're all fired. And but, you know, there was right there on my TV and my living room. So I was like, well shit. It worked within a j buzz was happening. I mean you know, there's still cliche in the industry. We want to create buzz, you can't mandate that we are getting calls from media outlets like you wouldn't believe this was covered by the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, we were on VH one. We were on ESPN coal pizza. We flew to New York and Ron TV the interviewed us. This was covered by at age and weak. Creativity magazine which is a big industry magazine. Covered it in, in the in the creative director who, who, who reviewed. It said something very interesting on the surface. This just seems like a bunch of crazy, maybe gross creatures, you know, being funny, but he says you look at this work. This campaign is brilliant, retail advertising, the clients store name. The logo is ominous green the entire time characters. They're not just singing funny song. They're singing about the sub, and that they're toasted, and they then show the toaster, and the sandwiches going through the toaster. And then they're talking about the price of the sandwiches. This is brilliant a story in the Denver post from that time. So quiz knows got thirty thousand emails and phone calls in the first month of the campaign, launching the spun monkeys managed to spark a national conversation. Meanwhile, back in London were Jill. Have return to work. The ads were in airing at all. It was a really strange time because I was still in this basement, working crazy. I was on this on this show. An everyone around me was slightly know about me, having taken time off to go and do this thing. And I think everyone was kind of like, didn't really won't be to bang on about two months. They just wanted me to get when we was used to be doing that on my fine wasn't ringing, because we're in the basement and this production kept having to nip upstairs and they'd be like, because it caused a real Rory. Everybody wanting to talk to me. I killed my website is well, my website immediately exploded. I was discount of underground Wade's divisive celebrity briefly. Yeah. No, I loved every moment of it is wonderful. However, not everyone was as excited about the ads as Joel on the folks at the Martin agency. We were given a heads up that that some people were complaining, and we kind of laughed about it and said, they'll get over it. But I guess they didn't. Look, it's a polarizing campaign, and it's very edgy campaign. I would say if we made a mistake with the campaign, it was we ran it on general media at the time. You know, there were spike TV MTV VH one. All of those, it should have probably been exclusively on those channels. But I do think that some of the, the notoriety was because it ran in mainstream media that it horrified whole bunch of people who were middle aged. And that's what got tournaments gauze. I think all young people like the notion of rebellion and these characters were rebellious characters in the fact that we are willing to take it out, and put it right out in the middle of middle America landscape was part of the rebellion was fun is so nice like a consent tissue. Right. If you're doing something completely mental and you're putting it on the internet people in that medium have control over what they say. And so if someone shows you that because they usually they think you'll like it will you've gone there because you such doubt this kind of nonsense. But if you put something mental, the talian beaming into everyone's homes, especially an ad because it's not even the thing that they're there to watch. Everyone's like, yeah, you'll, you'll fool senior on in a slightly consent. You why? Not hadn't thought about until until that point. Quiz knows eventually dropped the Martin agency, but his carry explains it wasn't all because of the blowback from the spring monkeys campaign. The company was becoming more corporate. They had hired someone who came in from the more Nain stream fast food sectors. And they were much more conservative people in the people who actually bought the original work. So. No, we weren't. We weren't fired a. We did another campaign. It was a typical show, the sandwiches the entire time nothing. Interesting. It was all beauty shots of food classic category advertising, which was remarkably uninteresting. And I'm sorry. They just sorta got what they deserved the conservative people didn't realize the DNA of this company. Quiz knows and quiz knows has. Well, certainly not, not not not doing a brand that it wants was. Let's, let's say that quiz news is really interesting story. This is Mark Lohman chief brand officer for the Rigo restaurant group groom airport volume includes quiz knows and talk with Omar. We love working with brands that maybe aren't having their best day right now. But we love working with them to bring them back into help, turn them around based on what consumers want Mike Lohman started his job in February. His company, Rigo is backed by a private equity firm that specializes in turnarounds of consumer brands that should give you an idea of how quiz knows has fared in the period, since the spun monkeys add ownership changed hands from one private equity firm to another the company got sued by its own franchisees, it filed for bankruptcy. And in went from forty seven hundred US locations to four hundred and ten years. If you look at what made quiz. No successful. It really comes down to a few things. We built our foundation on having. Fantastic, high quality food that tastes great. We also build our foundation originally on innovation and coming out with new products and new ideas that other brands didn't have and at the time that they weren't willing to try. And then if you look at history, I what happened to quiz knows has happened to a number of brands, and that is we lost our way we started to stray from that north star. And a lot of that happened during the economic downturn. And when you stray from north star, and you move away from who you are, and what consumers want from you. It's no surprise when challenges head your way. Krizner's is still going after a young male demographic. But the media landscape is much different than it was in two thousand and four windchill Vitas spun monkeys were introduced to the world. It was before you to before Instagram before Netflix streaming and cord cutting before Twitter and brands getting into fights on Twitter. Mark Lohman says quiz knows is considering opportunities like twitch, the live streaming platform for gamers. National television campaigns in the near term probably aren't the best fit for us. But there are new tactics new channels coming out like twitch and other ways that, that really do seem to be reaching guests and reaching them in a way that we haven't been able to reach them before twitch has incredibly high engagement within certain demographics and psycho graphics. And I would say that, that many of those many of those consumers are a good fit for what we're designing for everybody talks about it, and the terms of wealth, social media's taken older, everything. But I can promise you, when you go to pitch a client, these days, still the first words out of their mouth are basically show me the TV, and you can call a TV or not TV, but at the end of the day, it's still a commercial of sorts. And so it runs as a pre roll, you know, where, you know, the parts of when you go to a website, and they said, you know, you can skip this ad. Well, that's still a commercial playing in if it's not interesting is just. Beauty shots of food. They are going to skip it. But when those characters come on, and sing we love the sobs, you know, I'm sorry in this day and age people would continue watching it. I, I still believe so you know if ever there was a time for creativity and film content that looks like commercials or or whatever it's now because since consumers are in control of not only wear when in how they'll interact with your advertising. They're in control of F L even be bothered to interact with your advertising, which means it better be damn interesting and entertaining. So to me, the spun monkeys would explode in today's a social media age. So if that's how the media landscape looks for people in marketing and advertising. What does it look like for people like Jovic who are still making weird stuff for themselves? It was. Bit the world west back in the Nevada thousands, the internet was very open. An it really just depended on. We'll people sending it to each other. And that was all matted and then Google cleverer than YouTube came along, and then Facebook, it will become beholden to. These huge multinational corporations on their invisible, algorithms all of which were designed to maximize revenue full said corporations on it changed the game enormously, a lot of the people from Mike coho who make animations. Have really struggled over the last few years, because if you if you will dependent on YouTube, which is will a loss of creative than animation is a real problem because animation is hard time conceiving inexpensive to Mike. It is a medium, which if you will spending ages in a fourteen on Mike, two minutes of ready, high quality stuff. But the algorithm is rewarding somebody who's sitting looking camera to king about full Naito Mike up a half an hour, which they can just do in real time this, there's no way of really making that viable when that sustain, but is a shame. I have a different outlook on life. Now in a number of ways unsought, always spent my early years bouncing from chill thing thing on. That's great. When you're younger on you don't have to worry about United feeding kids and stuff. But you know, I'm a bit older now and not have to leave a little bit more responsible anew. So at spent years doing very useful things I wanted to concentrate more on bigger moa, losting stuff. It seems fitting them in the afterlife, of the super weird commercial. That a couple of animated singing creatures that Joel in his brother created on a whim would end up burrowing so far into the American cultural consciousness. I look at is one of the mini successful brand campaigns over the last ten or twenty years and really helped drive consumers to the quiz knows brand. It was something that wanna came on TV you noticed because it was a little bit different. Is it was a little bit odd in a very, very good way. And because of that people remembered it and took action, visit quiz knows they wanted to see what, what all the buzz was about. And when we talked to guests and consumers today, we get a lot of feedback about the, the campaign, still my wife's family owned a quiz knows before that predating the ads. So we were like familiar cuisines. Anyway, in kind liked it. I'm like very into sandwiches again. This is Jonas at basecamp. So, yeah, we would go and get the sandwiches, and I remember. Yeah, I was like, more into quiz, those after that thinking like, oh, this is a company that something's going on there, like, I don't know what's going on. But I like what they're up to my wife and I kind of had. A running gag about it. And we would go around sort of quoting the song in the like offensive off key voice, and be like I got pepper like we go around and do that. Now train creative people and recount, people strategy people around the country of agencies on how to present himself creative work in the workshops that I do the only piece of creative work that I show because people want to know how I sold it while we sold it as an agency is the quiz knows work. And now many of the people that I'm doing my workshop or now twenty five twenty seven years old. You know, thirty years old, and, you know, they were fifteen twelve fourteen years old when the quiz knows campaign came out. And when I play it, they all start laughing. They start reminiscent of remembering seeing these characters, and it's the campaign that keeps on giving. When you're able to do that, it never leaves them, and they remember to this day. I mean they're still on my website, and they're that old format. It was before, like TV's got, like everybody had wide screen or whatever. So they're in that old format, but I'll be damned. I'm not giving them up. I love those little fuckers. Rework is produced by Sean hill, Nour, n me Waylon Wong theme music is broken by design by clip bar special. Thanks to Jim burns and Meredith Turk for their help with this episode. You can find jill's work at rather. Good dot com. We'll link to his site and all the videos mentioned in this episode in the show notes, which you can always find at rework dot FM. Quiz knows had been very good. Advertiser, they hadn agency cliff, Freman, importers, which still is in my opinion. One of the greatest agencies of all time, particularly in the area of retail food advertising. I mean I mean, they did all the Little Caesars stuff back in the nineties in two thousand which was excellent. But pizza pizza, exactly.

Joel song the Martin agency director Tien Raymond Jonas Mike Virginia MTV Kerry London Jill Mark Lohman assault base camp southeast Asia Whalen Wong Shawn Hyllner
10.9.19 Low inflation creates job opportunities; Scam season is in full swing; How much allowance is good?

Clark Howard Show

35:58 min | 1 year ago

10.9.19 Low inflation creates job opportunities; Scam season is in full swing; How much allowance is good?

"Media viewing trends are rapidly changing Americans are watching more video content across more screens than ever before brands need to adapt to the changing habits to get their message heard multi-screen TV advertising can help and it's more efficient and effective than ever advertisers can select their target trade wars but so far the economic seem to be showing that at least my initial fears are bearing mishmash of confusion right now where when corporate financial people are surveyed they say but in the midst of that most people aren't seeing any meaningful pay raises and out and I hope that I am so wrong about it leading to violence between countries but there are other sectors of the economy doing in my opinion on it later yet so we are in a really unusual situation right now very well by far the greatest job growth going on these days is in education and in anything to do with healthcare very intensely strong opinion that everyone loses and trade wars except arms manufacturers because either they're already in a recession in their industry or they believe there's one coming for the country and then you talk to people yes that's the power of TV get started today at comcast spotlight dot com slash podcast there's also at the same time that's going on that we have such low unemployment but really measly raises there are certain sectors of the economy and that is that we have the lowest unemployment rates we've had in a long long long long time is of the various trade wars it's pummeling manufacturing in the United States and in other countries I have a very in businesses where things are going great they're like recession what are you talking about I've never been busier more successful in my life so it depends on what you're up to so manufacturing there's significant job losses and layoffs taking place because how you doing well and also pretty much anybody with a college degree their services are very and how to look for the telltale signs the you're about to get taken in a sweepstakes scam that's coming up in today's cork -rageous moment and sales dot com so we have bargains for you each and every day on to tell you about a sweepstakes scam that has roared back so glad you're with us here on the Clark Howard show where it's all about you in that Walla yours her and government hiring at state and local levels of the hotel industry general and have you heard how much allowance the average parent is giving a minor child well I'm GonNa fill you in on the number and Oracle all out trade wars ultimately lead to the real kind of war fighting between countries so I'm very very anti we are seeing significant layoffs and job losses and closures of businesses so it is such a mess in demand right now so when you look at the big picture that's kind of it but what about this thing with you to learn ideas so you can save more and spend less and don't let anyone ever rip you off Kark Dot Com is our main website Carte de away in the lower third of income earners and the country is that you get a raise by changing jobs or by finding another opportunity that you can take and going to your existing employer in say I love working for you the having such low unemployment but people having a hard time getting pay raises well the Koren key for people per ticket would have got this other offer that pays me so many more dollars an hour and I love being here but I gotta go take that than the marketplace employers are not GonNa pay you more they're just not and so you've got to be unless you can help me out on the paycheck I mean until you go out and have the confidence to shop what you're worth Oh you gotta go see are you really able to find opportunities where you are worth more that somebody will pay you more and then if you don't like where you work fine just give them notice and go somewhere else but if you have that feeling I I have this loyalty to this employer. They've been good to me I like working here I like the atmosphere I've seen a little bit fatter paycheck then once you found what else is out there go tell them that you'd love to stay but you gotta have more money and then it's up to them to tell you to get lost or how about if I give you an extra whatever but she don't ask you don't get are and there's something making you feel like somebody is out there wanting to be the second bruce and not in a good way what's the story a your own advocate you're the one who has to go see what you're worth out there you don't just complain to your employer or more money my credit report apparently so I went to my social security website to try to create an account so you can monitor all of your social security activity coming of each of your credit reports and if you also register it Credit Karma you can get Fort Dot com yeah that's right that's what I went to say annual report DOT Com you're loud once each year to get a free copy I know what's going on with your credit and be able to monitor it frequently and the beauty of Credit Karma is that it's free to do that up in the future and in order to verify your identity you know they have you answer these questions off your credit report and and none of it dot com you can see two of your three credit reports basically whenever you want all year long for free so it's a much more generous thing bruce with us on the Clark Howard Show Hi Bruce Yeah Hey Clark I it's so nice to talk to you we'll great to have you here at annual credit report dot Com did you have any trouble getting one two or three of your reports yes strongly recommend particularly case where it looks like somebody may be out there maybe masquerading as you you need to we know moving forward to do something like that so you can't get any of your three files you're going to have to go through an identity verification can't access any you're going to have to go through you're GONNA have a new part time job that I hope you don't have to have and I wish I'd uh-huh oh anyway that was kind of a little bit scary so I went to one of the is with all three bureaus or only with a particular one if you've got a problem with them verifying identity with all three boroughs then I'm afraid to tell you the odds are stronger you have been a victim of identify theft and if you can do you dispute things you'll have to do affidavits you'll likely want to get an identity theft police report and I have a Asian process through the mail or not where you're going to have to send like a copy of a driver's license and you have to send copies made that's why I'm calling you because they gave me the same kind of questions things about car retail cards and dot com and you're able to get to of your reports but not the third then there's a greater possibility not a certainty better greater possible you a physical copy through the mail of your report and then you start the protocol of trying to clean up whatever havoc a crooked then what you get an annual credit report DOT COM yeah that was gonna be like a question for you is should I do that or not so you kind of like a short version of step by step on Clark Dot Com but there's a great organization based in southern California called the bills you have or whatever so they can verify you are the real bruce and not whoever is out there masquerading as you then they send you well of caused okay so let's go with something more innocent and let's say you go through the process of annual credit report the identity theft resource center that offers a great step by step guide if you do turn out to be an identity theft victim what an advocate for yourself and how to clean up the havoc that a crook has caused okay and it up okay that's what I'm hoping for let's say innocent it's not innocent you document everybody ever talked right way for you to proceed from here I hope Bruce there's a false alarm and not a big hassle you're going to deal with is work there's now a standard protocol for organizations to run a background check accounts opened up and I'm sorry this for one bureau that you failed the challenge questions or all three 'cause each would have their own challenge questions Oh yeah it let me pick one so I just picked one at random okay so at annual credit report dot Com thath what's the story yes my daughter in college she's seeking a volunteer opportunity this organization requires a background and the background checks are generally not deep dive background checks but they almost all start with things like you coughing there's a clerical error involved and then that one bureau you do the mail stuff get the report and then you start trying to clean chick she would directly to the website of investigative contractor I suppose and she called me because she calls every week or so I'm not sure that it's not in the various I think it might just be maybe somebody put my number down by accident or keyed in something wrong is okay you send in the stuff and it's it's weird we don't trust sending anything through the mail anymore but that is the fathers and go ahead and do the form to have the background check done so I don't like the danger at create from Cox the NFL season is underway and that means certain scams follow right on the heels of the beginning personal information including almost always your social security number so there is a danger that that information can you can you can pick all three and I want you to in this case and they're all for him and I want you to go see if the problem with your credit file honey I am very impressed so what's happened is because of scandals that have happened in the past particularly in I I prefer the one with the hammer myself okay I think we're done here now get all your favorite apps shows and movies right on contour. TV believes in the cause and the service they provide no that there is that risk of identity theft but the the certainty is that she'll be able to help on publishers clearinghouse publishers clearinghouse is a legitimate organization that has the big prize and so so many people are interested and having a chance at winning and publishers clearinghouse that it's become an extremely season towards the playoffs there are a variety of scams that pop up it seems every season most around popular target for scamsters and the Fraud Watch bulletin that I just received says that the publishers clearinghouse else scams are roaring back and there's two versions big right now one is you get a random phone call from people pretending to be from publishers clearinghouse saying that you've won a big publishers clearinghouse prize and you just need to wire money ways that they do at the end of every football season there's high interest in it they showed the big checks on TV and all that brought to you by Cox with Contour TV from Cox you can find all your favorites all in one place it is it have the Youtube you bet end up in the wrong hands so that's always the concern but it's not a certainty so the way I would tell your daughter to make the decision is if she really it actually I misspoke the seasons basically a third over now and we're getting as we move closer and closer through the for her but I think it's important that background checks be run especially when people are GonNa be volunteering with young people this episode audience and geographic areas and deliver their ads with minimal waste comcast spotlight helps brands put their message in front of the right audience on any device just-published again that they will never ask anybody to send any fee taxes or other monies to collect a prize remember that concerned about identity theft and I was wondering if that you know that this house doing now how old is your daughter that she's that savvy she's for some fees and then they bring you the big money the other is when they send you a fake check that has publishers clearinghouse on it and at the season Clark -rageous moment it's a small check and then they tell you to wire them money to receive your big check both are obviously bogus publishers clearinghouse hates this questions and she called to tell you she loves you and misses you she only calls with questions I went to Credit Report Agency that he recommend it's not the one I told your producer it's one you recommend annual Fred talknet flicker thing net flicks too and although Superhero Movies Contour has all the latest titles on demand Oh my grandkids love that big green I don so I've I've I've had my background investigated before I've done eighty six but this was through a website to a through a contractor and she on what you've always recommended which is locked on my credit do the credit freeze well I mean if something happens and and then you know Donovan is with us on the Clark Howard Show Hi Donnas Harry Clarke Donnas you have a question for me that concerns people about identity Gaulle and Do you think that it's safe to mail those identifying documents you heard me and the only way you get things moving forward that made sense and it's like your your name and streets he live that sounds your maybe I have a car in the driveway and they don't know you know the rest of that is implied okay so she she calls she's getting to the point in life now he's either scenarios I never I've never even been in my pleasure to welcome you to the Clark Howard Show where it's about you learning ways to keep more of what you make Clark Dot Com is our main website Kark deals dot com is where you go to save money each and every day you know it's pretty clear that when serve you at Clark Dot Com and card deals dot com on rules that as an example for every dollar allowance fifty cents goes into savings fifty cents goes into spending a years parents have lost their minds doubling allowance in three years so remembering with an allowance comes responsibility and I believe that is apparent it is you're right since you're giving the money to set and the savings doesn't have to be for college or for when you finish high school or whatever it can be for a specific goal kids spend all that money that you give them I will let you decide how much allowance to give you know I've talked about my rules about allowance and how important it is with allowance to gradually step it up year-by-year when the money in their pocket burns a hole in it and the money just vanishes so that's why I'm particularly fascinated by is that you use allowance as a teaching moment and there is a method that has been popular in the evangelical money has to be divided up in three jars one for current spending one for savings in one for charity and whether community for decades and that is what's known as the three jar system and that is that when you give a child money that the new report from the American Institute of CPA's the doesn't annual survey of allowance and finds that the average kid in the United States it's now is getting a weekly allowance of Thirty Bucks Three Zero Bucks this has roughly doubled in Shakila game or something like that older might be a new smartphone or something along those lines that you create points should be in cash even for a teenager not on any kind of stored value card because you need to create the first-grader gets a dollar a week and on like that up through twelfth grade to twelve a week but when I've stressed so much more than the amount who is into the idea saving money has a discipline about it but generally with kids school age kids the process of the finite of money which you don't sense on any kind of card and also simplest methods I've recommended in the past is that and it's your choice either by a child's age give them the amount of money by age so we use that as a teaching moment with your child you say what is it that means the most to you that you would like to do with the money and the savings are pre teens or teens whatever money they have for the most part they'll spin there's an occasional preteen or teen jar and it might be buying something in particular that you really want with a younger kid it might be a Nintendo device or create a sense of purpose for money because if you just give a kid money without any guidelines are teaching six year old gets six dollars a week twelve year old gets twelve dollars a week in eighteen year old if you're still giving it eighteen gets eighteen a week or you do it by grade you want to have your child think about money and that method with three jars you want to to jars or whatever I think it they learn nothing and then you feel frustrated why is it that my kids never have any money even though I give him X. number of dollars a week that's because they don't learn bias Moses you gotta teach the Roberts with us on the Clark Howard Show Hi Robert Hey how you doing great thank you Robert you got a question for me that is overseas and you know it's an expensive trip it's a honeymoon and we're talking about travel insurance and I'm looking at the one that's been very much on people's minds just lately hit me with well where planning on going to mindset of spend save Kiev or in in your household or will be spending save you gotta teach that the best options for that like can you use a particular credit card I called one credit card companies and they said they don't offer it anymore so then of course I can get it through the travel agency which is about six percent which I I hear is about average but I was wondering what you thought things I congratulations on your upcoming honeymoon second thing is the card that gets the best about the whole thing for travelling that the whole insurance thing was losing luggage they offer even just getting hurt overseas well I press for coverage for travel is a card called the chase sapphire preferred you get an entire suite of protections but you have to buy your travel on the card to be and not free the chase Sapphire preferred costs ninety five dollars a year and with it at the just pulled it up just this second so it says these benefits are available when you use your card so I have specific hoops you have to jump through read the rules but I for a long time have depended on a credit card CC It says one hundred percent of the cost of the trip has to be booked on the card or not you'd have to get into the in years to explain in simple English what is it well my husband and I would ideally like to retire early maybe L. They pay for you to buy other things it covers as primary coverage when you rent a car you don't involve your own auto down payment to the travel agent so then the remainder is on there I can put on there okay so nitty gritty of all the details but look into but the card what it covers it covers if your bag goes missing for a while car rental counter buying their outrageously overpriced collision damage waiver just one quick more one thing more so generally acts of war are not covered by policies and if you're really worried about my goal is for you to have a fantastic honeymoon and everything is great well I guarantee we will all right trip for any reason if you can't go for any reason whatever that these policies are much are tend to be more expensive it or more comprehensive and give you much more power in the event something adverse happens involving your trip all right so four trip cancellation trip interruption insurance and for car rental damage rather than buying separate policies or like at the great financial exposure there is a type of trip policy you can buy that covers usually three quarters of the cost of your all together protections just baked in so go ahead what does it have to be one hundred percent of it because I of course I had to put it us on the Clark Howard Show Hi Jill Hi Clark how are you great thank you Jill you have a question for me that I have struggled for fifteen around sixty before Medicare kicks in I think at sixty five so we're trying to figure out how to fill in the gaps and be able to pay our healthcare insurance and that in that period Hsa eligible is fantastic people who can afford to do that and pay current medical expenses out of pocket get by far the greatest benefit that's the most important thing is that you have a great life together Jill is with the only one thing I was wondering about is and I it's in the details of cards like an act of God say for example the you're able to use your HSA four so if you go to Clark Dot Com and you click or if you bang up the car all right and it comes with the trip cancellation and trip interruption insurance and all these things scipion there's out of pocket and so- HSA's pay for out of pocket tax-free There's Medicare for all or whatever there's still going to be out of pockets somebody on Medicare when you know just becoming a Medicare everything you can use your Hsa four and medical expenses can include the premiums you pay for insurance or we have the link right to the long version but do I love h essays not a little a lot is to use for medical services but I also have a full list of every possible thing that under today's law much more comprehensive but much harder to understand federal guide that the IRS has put together on is risky if you if you die or I know it's extremely unlikely but should medicare for all come in to come into play here in the coming years is there any the plane hit this thing called Bro you know God does that's an act of God probably in the details on whether they cover that are so cool because you put money in and you get a current tax deduction then they grow over the years tax free and then you spend them tax for so I've heard you talk a lot about health savings account and using them as an investment but as we're I'm I'm just now to the point where we can maybe start to do that because we hit the threshold of what we have is our ballots but a couple of questions came up in terms of You know is is there an amount that you should put in there that I gotTa tell you something funny in all the years that I've answered questions about HSA's no one has ever asked me risk and putting money in there I think putting okay let's take let's say we go to some kind of socialized healthcare let's just say we do survivor the account loses its HSA value satis and then the account is taxable to the benefits. Wait wait a minute I correct myself producer jol has found the answer for you so you a on eligible medical expenses and the situation you just described where you put money in now to use far down the road if you're and it's got the amounts you can put into an Hsa this year those amounts may change every year and then we have a link to the insurance policy to cover those gaps years so there I've got a list on a guide at Clark Dot Com that one rents but that's not the real purpose of them so you can read all that you can read the short version so something new every day thank you for asking the question Joel forgetting the answer for us so quickly it's time for vantage to start over instead of using a fifteen year old boxspring the important thing for us there are a lot of best buy he's mattresses are guaranteed where generally from companies you have from three months to longer than that and you put in the search box HSA skip past the ads they will come up and results and then read Mike Guide to HSA's mattresses rated by consumer reports that are very affordable the wonderful thing about the new beden box market is that the depending on the mattress provider to return for a full refund most these companies will come and pick them up from you you don't have to story okay so that would be a child sorry that could be a child right but that's not a tax free Clark Dot com slash ask where you post to question for me at Clark Dot Com hey specifically if you would like me to answer your question directly to you soreness in the morning at all now you're listening to the Clark Howard show thanks for people are pre teens or teens they're only interested in Clark deals not Clark because people and there's nothing here there's no clinical thing that I can fine that says what happens with your HSA money not thousands pay for one time access to consumer reports website or go to the library and read their latest ratings we've been sleeping on the spring for those they can sit on wood-frame they can set on a metal frame these are very inexpensive devices and it's likely from putting money in health savings account okay that sounds great. Can you use that to pay premiums if we had to get a the mattresses that come

Clark Dot Com HSA Clark Clark Dot Clark Howard producer jol Joel Mike Guide one hundred percent ninety five dollars three quarters twelve dollars eighteen year fifteen year three months six dollars six percent
Super Bowl Ads 2019: Stunts, Self-Deprecation And Celebrity Sightings

NPR's Business Story of the Day

04:12 min | 2 years ago

Super Bowl Ads 2019: Stunts, Self-Deprecation And Celebrity Sightings

"Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from Comcast business having the nation's largest gig speed network was just the start. Now, they're providing gig fueled apps and solutions that exceed expectations and help businesses perform Comcast business beyond fast. Some Super Bowls are thrilling and summer like last night when the New England Patriots beat the Los Angeles Rams and the lowest scoring Super Bowl game in history. Of course, the game is only part of the spectacle, where the halftime show and the commercials anymore. Exciting. We have a tweet review here from one Rachel Martin of NPR news who writes, you wrote Rachel well that was horrible. Don't think you didn't love it very much NPR. Tv critic Eric Duggan's has his judgment the most unexpected moment in the Super Bowl. Halftime show. Didn't come from headliner. Maroon five or guest Travis Scott, it came courtesy of characters from the cartoon SpongeBob squarepants who introduced Scott's part of the performance. Musical genius who needs no introduction. The cartoon clip was a shoutout to sweet victory. Assam spongebob. Squarepants once played on an episode that parody the Super Bowl was a hip surprise. And a halftime show that also included appearances from Outkast member big BOI and a gospel choir. Maroon five frontman, Adam LeVine, stripped off, coats and shirt until he was bare-chested showing off his tattoos while singing one of the group's biggest hits moves like Jagger. Gives me. Show. It was professional mildly. Exciting the kind of ineffective Super Bowl halftime show that the NFL might have been hoping for after its controversies over players kneeling to protest police brutality. But it was also kind of boring like most of the Super Bowl commercials press to avoid social media backlash. Many of the ads in Sunday's game were not edgy groundbreaking or even all that funny. Consider one but lights commercials which featured medieval characters from last year's but light Super Bowl ads preparing to watch a joust a beautiful day for a date. Date things out lucky. Loincloth cold Bud Light comfy thrown I don't have the plague anymore when they're but night is killed by a character from game of thrones called the mountain then a dragon sets fire to the jousting arena. And the whole thing turns into a game of thrones commercial. I'm not quite sure how scenes of carnage and fire cells cans of Bud Light. Maybe it makes you thirsting Harrison Ford fared better in an ad that showed fictional failed products, featuring Amazon, Alexa, including dot collar. Ordering dog the Barco you'll want. I'm not paying for England dog food ordering gravy yet. There is nothing funnier than watching Indiana Jones chases small dog around his house, Pepsi earn some multigenerational cool points by having chance the rapper remix. The backstreet boys hit I want it that way. And the Washington Post scored with a serious ad ended reinforcing the value of journalists and journalism as images of reporters like slain columnists, Jamal kashogi appeared on screen. Tom Hanks provided a reassuring narration when our nation is threatened. There's someone to gather the facts. To bring you the story. No matter the cost knowing keeps us free. Now, I might be a bit biased. But seeing some of the most expensive real estate in television used to remind America that journalism is a key to democracy seemed like the best use of a Super Bowl ad that I've seen in quite a while Americans.

Comcast Bud Light Squarepants Los Angeles Rams Adam LeVine NPR Rachel Martin New England Patriots Travis Scott Jagger Outkast Tv critic Tom Hanks Assam Washington Post Harrison Ford America Eric Duggan
Google and YouTube Overdeliver, Fraud in CTV and the New California Privacy Rights Act | Nov 9, 2020

Behind the Numbers: eMarketer Podcast

31:24 min | 2 months ago

Google and YouTube Overdeliver, Fraud in CTV and the New California Privacy Rights Act | Nov 9, 2020

"You know there's some interesting hypotheticals that you have to consider that if you know just purely hypothetically google was not allowed pay apple to be the default search iphone. I can't imagine them allowing microsoft or duck duck goad. Pay a significant amount of money to be the default searched. Hey gang is monday november ninth. I think that's right. I've lost track of the day ever since the beginning of the year. Nicole erik and listeners. Welcome to the conversation that covers all the digital media advertising and technology news just buying them. Daily emarketer podcast. I'm executive producer. Marcus johnson. i'm joined by onto google experts. We have with us. Principal analyst nicole perrin -tising and technology kelo hanikos. Rosa joined fi. Eric hagstrom who is one of our forecasting analysts. Thanks for having me hey. Today's topic google's q three earnings. My goodness how. Google do in july august and september is what we hope to answer on this episode. We're going to go. Kind of line is and bylines and to some extent only four line items of four or five kind of main ways. The google breaks out their performance over. Each quarter will talk some google advertising. Google search youtube google network members properties as. Well let's start a top a quick mention about total revenues or total alphabet revenue one of the headline them. As you might have been hearing is forty. Six billion dollars. That's for alphabets. Which is the umbrella comparing company so forty six billion. Q3 up fourteen percents on q. Three versus the twenty percents loss q. Three so decently as as expected to that growth is going to take down each year in keeping with what we'd expect in q two of this year total revenue had fallen negative one point seven so it climbed out of the hole that it was in from las quarter. That's toews alphabet revenue. But if we dig a little deeper into google advertising specifically google advertising more what we care about was thirty seven billion up nine percent year on year which means this is google ad. Revenue has gone ten percent. Q one negative you to a nine percents in q. Three so ten negative nine so a shaped recovery in deeds nicole stone with you your thoughts on how google advertising getting q. Three well it did pretty well. It did a little bit better than we expected it to do. And in that it had a lot in common with all of the other major tech platforms that reported ad revenues in q. Three so far the ad market recovery has been very strong in q. Three and i think it looks like we should expect a really strong end to the year as well I'm just to clarify you. Know she's talking about the digital ad market. Some of what we've been seeing is that there's been a lot of weakness in the tv ad market in some of that is potentially going over to digital platforms I looked at the nine months ending. September in twenty twenty number so if the nine months that we've had this year already in the books google ad revenue was up four percent versus the same nine month period last year. So that's that's pretty decent. You take a nine months. Twenty twenty vessels the same nine months. Twenty nine teen is up four percents. That's slow though compared to if you look twenty. Eighteen vessels nineteen for those nine months. Last year was sixteen percent growth. So you could look at that and say what is four times less growth this year than they realize. Last year you could also cited as a pandemic an economic recession and they still up four points google's ad revenue. I did notice a accounts for eighty percent of alphabet. Total which is down four points from last year. So the shad that google makes up. It's still overwhelmingly the most amount money that they make us from advertising but it is ticking down any thoughts about that guys is it. Google say anything with regards to how much is investing in other areas. Or is this telling because you can only gross folles especially when you're so big well other lines other than advertising having growing as well most notably their cloud business as well as subscriptions from youtube mainly youtube. Tv and youtube but the ad businesses recovered like very very strongly. As you've said we've been through a global pandemic a major recession. I think youtube is worst economic quarter since the great depression and they've recovered and they've they're still positive on the year. Which in my mind when you started talking about an advertising business that's supposed to be very cyclical tied to the economy. That's really nothing short of incredible Yeah as you mentioned. Google cloud revenue up forty four percents hitting three billion for the courts. Let's talk some such google search and other folks listening. What's other so this would be advertising on any owned and operated properties. That are not youtube. So google search advertising on g mail advertising on maps advertising on any other google properties. Okay google search and other is explains twenty six billion up six percent again seeing another v shaped recovery. Any thoughts on how google did here also. This was the place where we expected. Google to have the most trouble this year for a pretty simple reason which is a large share. Google search comes from travel advertisers. A lot of travel. Advertisers budget goes to google search these advertisers that really dramatically cut spending earlier in the pandemic. For obvious reasons. They just weren't able to do business in large part still aren't doing very much business. You know business just way down from where it was so much less advertising in to the extent that they are advertising. They're spending less money. And we knew that would really hurt. Google search revenues but some of the other verticals that advertising google search ended up doing this part of their business even better than we expected especially ecommerce advertisers which are pretty active in google search. And i think what's interesting. Is that ecommerce. Spending their has held up even as it's also gone really strongly to some other venues like amazon. And that's the interesting thing i mean. When we were in the midst of the early parts of the pandemic in april we made this forecast and we were expecting that a google would actually be negative on the year because of that loss from travel and we were going off under the assumption that e commerce in some of these other businesses that have benefited from the pandemic wouldn't significantly increase or add budgets. What's happened is that these guys have significantly increase or ad budgets and had been not. Just google positive. You're on your but also facebook Snapchat so there's just really broad based strength in advertising coming from e commerce sellers. We're expecting that to continue. I mean we saw as you mentioned a spike and ecommerce especially as a share of total retail and spoke to retail folks about this andrew. This man's in the daniel keyes is that watermark. Hold up you know. Are we going to see that. Share of ecommerce drp a bit when people can go back to the stores. I guess. I'm wondering that in the context of whale. That economists bend stay up high enough for travel to come back and kind of support some of the revenue in time. So you know as far as the ecommerce sales forecast we are as andrew and cindy will have told you expecting this is like a permanent step changes that we've accelerated by a couple of years this year. We're not going back for retail sales and we are basically expecting a sort of mirror almost of that to happen digital ad spending that includes surge but also includes display which is really heavy channel at this point especially in those social platforms. That eric mentioned a minute ago. And so what. We're actually expecting now for certain pockets of digital ad. Spending is that by the end of our forecasts. You know in twenty twenty three twenty twenty four we now are projecting higher search spending than we saw would happen in those years before the pandemic so another way of saying it is that we think that even though search is kind of having a rough year this year because of travel it's only growing single digits. Not only will rebound from there. But ultimately it will be bigger than than we ever expected because of this than faster-than-expected retail sales. Okay eric. yeah end to kind of piggyback off of that. We do think that e commerce sellers will spend a structurally higher percentage of their sales on advertising most notably performance advertising like search. And you know kind of social networks that sort of thing. Then you know a traditional retailer would spend on tv ads in largely because it's so performance base because it's so measurable because you can go back and attribute a lot of your spend backed actual sales a lago advertising spend back to the actual sales now and that's really what's driving that increase and so far that's in the case. I mean the flip side to that is i mean. We may be wrong when he talked about. What's happened over the past ten months or so. We've seen the single largest shock to consumer habits that we've seen probably ever so i mean if you're in the e commerce space you have to be looking at your sales right now in saying okay well. There's you know. Rapidly changing consumer behavior. And now's the time to spend money to try and capture market share. That sort of thing while people are willing to be persuaded because everything else in their lives as up in the air but for now we think that you know spending will continue to increase next year and that you know. This isn't just some sort of pandemic induced ad spending binge that is going to turn back next year so sticking with senate for a second. The doj department of justice followed the lawsuit against google focusing on alleged anticompetitive practices and their market dominance one of the elements that of that zeroed in on google paying apple to feature chrome. Some a question folks. How likely the governments to prevent google from being an apple to be the default search on its devices. And how much of an impact could that have on google if it did happen. Hypothetically some interesting hypotheticals you have to consider with that. You know if just purely hypothetically google was not allowed. Pay apple to be the default search iphone. I can't imagine them allowing microsoft or duck duck go to pay a significant amount of money to be the default search likely. There's going be some sort of search pain where users are asked to select their preferred search in safari. Now likely most people are going to still choose. Google and that's kind of the interesting thing and google pays out. You know about ten to fifteen percent of their total search ad revenues to their partners like apple and some of these other browser providers and you could run into the situation where they see similar amounts of ad spending going over their platform but they keep even more of it. Because they're not allowed to pay anyone for you know these default deals in you know. We don't know the exact terms of these default deals but they're likely revenue shares or appear to be very close to revenue shares. Might be a click. Share that sort of thing. Sarah rob copeland the wall street journal. Noting google took the unusual step this month of releasing a guide on how to switch to competitors such engines in an effort to show the option. Remains folks. this Step away from such a second and talk about youtube So you made five billion dollars in q. Three up thirty two percents year on year. It say a v shaped recovery indeed. It went from thirty three to six to thirty two percent growth. Q one to q three your thoughts on. How youtube This quarter and how it's done guest. Now we've got three quarters worth a data in the books. How it's done this year. I guess i take a lot of what i said about. Search engines pump excitement level up by ten times or something. I mean you know. Youtube has been growing faster. Four awhile from a smaller base video growth very high for several years now. Very popular with both direct response and brand advertisers for lots of reasons in youtube is really like the premium mir destination of this type of advertising for digital and yet they outperformed our expectations like search did but more so youtube has performed really strongly this year during the pandemic. Yeah and you know looking at all the companies we talk about. I know marcus. I've spoken with you about an absurd number of companies. A youtube is i think. Probably the most impressive company to me Over not lying. He says that it's not only for the podcast. It's it's a when you look at what they've done. I think there's two really interesting. Pockets of growth right now digital advertising this pre pandemic and post pandemic. It's okay you know kind of video. Advertising and e commerce channel advertising like what you see going over amazon that sort of thing but when you look at the video advertising a lot of those companies fairly small roku is fairly small hulu is large but youtube is significantly larger than everyone else and for them to grow at thirty percent in a quarter in the middle of a pandemic and see brand dollars when everyone's talking about direct response. That's very very impressive. And that's not even talking about their subscription offerings which are surprisingly very very large. So they're doing a lot of things right. And i mean something about youtube that really maze may or surprise me is back in july and august when we're talking about this facebook advertiser boycott where you know. Advertisers were pulling back from facebook because they felt that it wasn't brand safe. While if you flashback you know a couple of years ago. There were the same arguments happening with youtube where advertisers were having ads run. Over objectionable content disney notably pulled out a lot of ad. Spending on youtube i believe. At did as well. There are a couple scandals around that but when we spoke with advertisers about so where are you going to put your facebook spend that you now cottingham and a lot of them came out and said well you know. We're looking at youtube. Were looking at some of these other things and when you start to think. Hey i guess. They have their brand safety issues. Fixed people spend a lot of time on the site. They're targeting his just as good as facebook's it's obviously it's google so it's been a very very impressive company to see grow especially at that scale grenell's at just want to reiterate one of the points that eric made a second ago about youtube talking their rebound from brand advertisers so cfo Mentioned that on their call and none of the other executives. You know mark zuckerberg sheryl sandberg leded. Not mentioned brand advertisers on the facebook call only direct response. Advertisers have been called out by other platforms. That was something that i noticed. That was seemed like out unique to google. This is interesting. I say that not having read the transcript for the trade desk yet. So for the record will yeah. I mean that's kind of the interesting thing about digital advertising. Is this whole split between brand direct response when you look at more traditional forms of advertising. Tv it's almost entirely brand advertising trying to drive reach and frequency goals that sort of thing whereas a lot of what's happening on digital whether it's facebook or google searches incredibly performance based youtube and some of these other video properties are some the only properties that are predominantly grand. I'm thinking about see tv. Ott that sort of thing. So couple of them is to really highlight. Just how well. Youtube has done this year. Really nine months ending september in two thousand twenty versus the same period jet youtube up twenty four percent so that thirty three six thirty two percent growth key one two and three averages out nine months ending september. Twenty twenty you choose up. Twenty four percents for those nine months from this year from last year and to eric mention subscriptions the subscription offerings youtube. Now has thirty million paid subs up from twenty million the end of last year. Yeah and you know the really impressive thing is so they have a couple different subscription offerings. They have thirty million paid subscribers to youtube premium in youtube music. But the number that really stood out to me was and that's actually up from twenty million at the end of last year so fifty percent growth in three quarters but the number that really stood out to me was youtube tv number now. That's something that i care about a lot. A lot of people don't now it's a bit of a niche thing but youtube tv is there you know the mvp their digitally delivered cable tv service and they grew subscribers to three million by the end of this past quarter from two million by the end of last year. Now that sound lot smaller than that. Thirty million and twenty million number. That i just threw out but youtube. Td cost sixty five dollars a month. Now s people and that's not even given the ad is exactly what you're gonna say on and they've raised the price from fifty dollars to sixty five dollars over the summer so they were still able to massively grow their subscriber base even though they significantly increase prices on it and importantly to furlough that period. There weren't sports on tv and the primary selling point for youtube. Tv's the ability to access live sports channels like espn alicarte month to month basis. So and they did mention that youtube. Tv grew in every quarter of this year. So it's not as if people completely cut in q two and then came back when sports returning key three but that growth is really impressive at my mind. So we're expecting a significant bounce back for youtube hs ad revenue in twenty twenty one Bounced back is done. Well this year But we're expecting to to return to levels pre pandemic levels and then a little bit more as well. Also growing fast ashley than twenty-nine growth. I can understand bounced back but goes it why respecting to bounce back this much. That's what we're expecting for the digital market as a whole were expecting for mobile as a whole. It's lower expecting for see tv as a whole. It's a lot of. It's coming from that brand advertisers returning and we think you know kind of like what we were talking about the search earlier when you look at these video properties the covid nineteen pandemic has massively accelerated cord cutting and the shift away this audience shift away from you more traditional linear tv and ultimately that means that if you are a brand advertiser who invest video. You're going to need to start. Investing more not services and digital video properties and youtube really is the one service that has massive reach in the. Us who close roku is close but again youtube On a much larger scale than those other ads for options Folks google ads attribution reporting when now include youtube Seen expanding to display ads in the coming months as they say as our the breaking news that explains if a consumer which is an ad for products on youtube and then they find in by the item by google. Search that purchase can now be traced back to the original. Youtube ad close quotes. Google also expected to expand state driven attribution tool to smaller advertisers How big this. i mean. i wouldn't necessarily say this one very specific expansion is a huge deal. But it's part of a very important overarching trend providing these multichannel attribution tools. Doing it in a way that is accessible for smaller as opposed to those who have been able to hire third parties and also frankly doing it either by or simply within a walled garden like google where they have lots of access to data and can kind of you know really show off. Look how much we say. Your advertising with us earns in a way that smaller publishers without access to that much data just can't compete with Finally folks on the lead story. Google network members properties. We had a five point seven billion in q. Three this year up from five point three billion in q. Three of last year. That's nine percent some of the main takeaways for you guys with augusta. This number broken record say again In this segment. Google outperformed our expectations. This one falls in between youtube and search as far as how much outperform expectations by. But i would say that points to some decent health for the programmatic market outside the walled gardens and it is the walled gardens that we primarily get to learn about al at this time of the year during earning season when we hear from the likes of facebook twitter. Snapchat pinterest etcetera. I'm so this is kind of a view into other programmatic display and we also got that last week with some very strong quarterly results from the trade desk. Final style mentioned net income for our bet was up eleven billion for the quarter which was a new records as up sixty percent six zero year on year as time for the story quit what about some amok to research. We have on offer and then we'll be back with in other news all right. Nicole joins me the other side of the jingle to tell me a little bit about what she's working on the call. What have you published most recently working on for the future so most recently In fact exactly a week ago. I published a report on search marketing. So this report actually goes into a bunch of the numbers that we were talking about just now including are updated search forecast and our outlook on e commerce channel advertising and why we think that the channel shift of retail to digital is going to really drive an expanded amount of performance ab spending going forward including within search. If you're a pro subscriber already you access to all that good stuff and more if you're not going to amongst dot com to become a pro subscribe. You read all the research a much much more. Cool all right. We're back folks today in other news. How much of a concern is fraud within. Ctb advertising were the implications of this new twenty. Four measure and. How good are advertisers getting provoking emotional responses story one in september ad fraud analytics company double verify uncovered a scheme targeting. Premium publishes on connected. Tv mobile devices around one million dollars a month for being stolen from advertisers. Botnets cord multi tara That was faking inventory from publishers premium. Publishers are often the target of fraud since the ad rates will cpm's so high which makes them a more efficient target according to double verify See tv traffic rates. Were up one hundred and sixty one percents in twenty twenty year on year nicole. How much of a concern is ad fraud within see tv advertising and how much it's pollution of the medium affect advertisers. Interact with it. Well it's genuinely impossible to say how much of a problem it is. You know if you look at stats like this. It seems like it's a massive problem. It's common for these fraud. Networks to be uncovered within see tv and various verifications with providers have put out research suggesting that a large amount of see. Tv impressions are not truly see tv impressions on the other hand buyers will often tell you oh i would only ever by. Cptv through a p. m p. Because i know how dangerous fraud is so i would say the you know buyers are probably not that careful in real life in our in some of these cases victims of this fraud. But it's also just really hard to say you know how much this is. Open market inventory that like just kinda sketchy inventory. That big advertisers are avoiding any way one. The interesting things about see tv is how much inventory sharing there is when you look at the kind of tv market in general. There's a couple of different people who are selling ads and may not even network that you're actually watching so if you're watching the espn and your comcast subscriber comcast is selling the ads in the espn broadcasts. And that's really shifted over to see tv medium where depending on what you're watching there's a number of different people who might be selling ads on that broadcast and have different inventory and everything's going over different servers. Different servers may not be talking to each other. So you can buy hulu inventory through a couple of different sources you can buy pluto. Tv inventory from a couple of different sources. So it's not. That fraud is incredibly prevalent here. It's a lot of times. People don't necessarily know what they're buying or you know who they're buying it from and that can lead to confusion and that's where you get this whole issue of fraud where people try and step in and misrepresent inventory and say hey look we have inventory from this premium publisher and it's really you know. Fake story to california folks voted for proposition. Twenty four fifty six percent to forty four percent is how the vote shaked out shook out either one known as the california privacy rights act. Cpr a which does a couple of things a expansion strengthens the state's existing privacy laws cpi the california consumer privacy act and be calls for the establishment of a new state agency responsible for enforcing the law. Marketers will be paying most of their attention to section a the expansion of privacy laws bit because consumers will now have more ways to opt out of data collection and the faculty to limit the use. Of course sensitive data think race sexual identity nicole. What the implications of this new Twenty four measure. Yeah so a few important differences between this and the cpa. You mentioned the new category of sensitive data. There's also the fact that this law makes it explicit that the issue is not merely about selling data. You know in our industry people often linked to say that we're not really selling data so you're not going to be able to just use that. As the reason you can use data for targeted advertising measurement and the other thing is that it creates a new bureaucracy for dealing with this regulation in terms of of promulgating at and also enforcing it so it takes us out of the state. Ag's office and presumably puts on more attention on it. You know since california is so big these types of laws if they are unique to california and we don't have a federal law tend to become a sort of defacto standard. Which is i think what we can expect for this if there is no federal law between now and when this goes into effect which will be a little over a year from now so theoretically there are some time to get. Federal legislation passed in there but based on the events of last week. Not sure how likely that will be on. Par be this. New dedicated agency will shout fines to companies the violate the law with the district. Attorney's having the power to sue the agency will start with Ten million dollars to get off the ground story. Three global emotional artificial intelligence company affect tiba house tracks. How consumers have emotionally engaged with content over the past decade and they show advertisers getting better at provoking emotional responses both positive and negative from folks with an emphasis on more sadness and polarized emotions. Nicole you cover consumer attitudes for us. We'll have you seen with regards to how folks interprets emotionally infused adds some pretty interesting research because it's not too often now. We see research that does go into this question of emotion or affect. And it's difficult to do this research because it's much harder than just like asking someone in a survey of of what you think of this ad or something you have to really do is an eye tracking research. They attract people's facial expression really looking into the movements of human subjects and stuff so they had some very interesting findings. I would love to learn more about it. They talked about the fact that responses to ads. Were pretty polarized that some people would have a very positive reaction while others had a very negative reaction. And i think that's the kind of thing that you know. Marketers would really love to understand better and make sure that as they're trying to appeal to maybe one part of their target audience. They're not alienating part but without more information it's sort of hard to say how you would know about that. Good point sue the findings. They they had in his jumped out to me one. The research found consumers respond positively to ads acknowledging the coronavirus crisis if they provide tangible help however they is a more negative reaction when brands referenced. The crisis in generalities a without concrete action in most cases folks to respond. Well to of course business as usual and humorous as rather than pandemic content number. Two they say a happy ad doesn't mean a happy viewer. Actors in advertising are more likely to smile than to show any other expression review is a far less likely to smile in response. Positive engagement comes from developing powerful narratives that resonate with the audience as we got time for. Thank you to my guests. Thank you to call. Thank you thanks eric. Thank you to say hello. Ask us any questions. You can email us. Cossio monster dot com we tomorrow with another episode of the behind the numbers. Daily emarketer podcast.

Google youtube nine months facebook apple Nicole erik nicole perrin kelo hanikos Eric hagstrom Six billion dollars nicole stone four percent nine month sixteen percent eighty percent eric sixty five dollars daniel keyes nine percent Marcus johnson
441. Does Advertising Actually Work? (Part 2: Digital)

Freakonomics

50:14 min | 2 months ago

441. Does Advertising Actually Work? (Part 2: Digital)

"In our previous episode we learned that more than two hundred fifty billion dollars a year spent in the us on advertising globally. The figures nearly six hundred billion dollars. That's more than half a trillion dollars on advertising. Because of the digital revolution. Television advertising has lost some of its privacy but tv still accounts for roughly a third of ads spending in the us. The super bowl alone brings in more than three hundred million dollars and how effective is all that. Tv advertising mean how good is it actually selling the products it is telling you to buy the conventional wisdom says it's gotta be affected. Why else would companies spend so much money on it. But the data well the data tell a different story. Here's what we heard last week from anna tuchman. She is a marketing professor at northwestern university and she recently co authored a massive study on the efficacy of tv advertising. This means that doubling the amount of advertising would lead to about a one percent increase in sales so. Your research argues that. Tv advertising is about fifteen to twenty times less effective than the conventional wisdom says. Yes that's right. There are not surprisingly objections to this research especially from the marketing industry. For instance they will point to the brand building aspect of advertising. It's not just about short-term sales they'll say or the game theory aspect that is if you don't advertise your product and your rivals do. Where does that leave you. Still any company that spends even thousands of dollars on tv ads. Much less millions or billions would have to be sobered by anna. Tuchman findings was tv advertising. Always so inefficient or did it lose. Its lustre recently with the arrival of digital giants like google and facebook. We don't know the answer. That question but we do know is that people are spending more time online than ever before and the digital advertising holds the promise of matching advertisers precisely to the people who want their products at the end of the day. Everything around marketing strategy is around segmentation. That's the former chief. Marketing officer of unilever keith weed. More relevant to our to the audience the more interested. They'll be in your message on the more interested in your message. The more likely to buy a product and thanks to the cookies on your phone or computer such a cute name for such a powerful tracking device you are constantly telling the companies who installed those cookies. Exactly what you are interested in you. Also tell them where you live what you wear and listen to eat. What kind of people you hang out with. Which god if any hugh believe in which political party you hate less than the other yes. The thinking advertising has changed radically with the arrival of digital and data. The internet has made it almost too easy to sell to us and sell to us. They do last year. Advertisers spent one hundred and twenty three billion dollars on internet ads in the us. It's just less than half the total ad spending across all media. That's how facebook and bet the parent company. Google have become two of the most valuable companies in the world. More than eighty percent of google's revenue comes from advertising or the ninety eight percent of facebook's revenue comes from advertising with so many advertisers spending so many billions they must be getting a healthy return on their investment right so digital advertising must be effective right Today freakonomics radio a hard look at the hard to find evidence around digital advertising. Oh adds definitely work. But we can't tell you how or why or give you any evidence for it from stitcher and productions. This is freakonomics radio. The podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host stephen. Duffner steve to dallas is a professor at haas school of business as of california berkeley. Yes and i teach and do research in a lot of his research is on the economics of the internet. Back in two thousand eleven. He started doing some work with ebay. I was asked to hire and lead a team. Economists and work with a variety of the businesses within ebay. The hiring of prominent academic economists is a long standing practice at tech firms. How varian also from berkeley worked for years as chief economist at google john list from the university of chicago has done similar work. I at uber and now at lift. So here was steve to dallas at ebay and at one point one of the directors. They're realized that as economists know something about metrics which is the statistics of measuring economic activity. And they wanted to see if we could vet a consultant that they recently hired a consulting firm to do quantitative marketing analytics. And help ebay figure out how to spend their scarce marketing dollars. Let me just say that. Scarce here is relative term that the time ebay was spending about a billion dollars a year and a variety of marketing activities. Okay so it makes sense that ebay would wanna know how effectively that money was being spent more than half of it was going toward internet ads and this outside consulting firm was going to analyze the efficacy of those ads and the goal was to speak with this consulting company and see if they're going to use solid and vetted ways of measuring these returns to advertising to be fair measuring the efficacy of advertising. Can be really hard last week. My freakonomics friend and co author. Steve told us about trying to help a big box. Retailer measure the efficacy of their tv ads. One issue that they really only advertise three times a year for father's day black friday and christmas. And so you of course have a correlation between your advertising tv. And when you're selling things but it's not necessarily or even primarily because of the ad it's because the company knows when the big selling days are and they target the ads around it so he's not the causal part the sales that wouldn't have happened absent advertising. It's just a really hard problem. But within that firm levitt found the executives were convinced it was the ads the caused the sales. Steve terrell again. This is the kind of wrong analysis that many people end up falling into when they are not that can chien-shan about the difference between causation and correlation. To dell's knew this would be hard problem for ebay as well. And that's what these outside consultants were supposed to figure out. So i got an a call with them. Very quickly was able to confirm that what they're doing was quite wrong. Just you know consulting firms. Also like to higher academic economists to do this kind of work. So you can maybe see where this is going to. Dallas is listening intently on the call which was on a landline which will make sense. In a second and went to della suggested that the consultants proposed methodology would not be able to untangle correlation and causation. They responded using a whole bunch of jargon especially the term proprietary transformation functions proprietary meaning. That's our secret. Transformation functions meaning who knows to della said he still didn't understand how these consultants were going to measure the thing that needed to be measured the marginal effect of the ads that ebay was spending millions on then The head of the company replied by saying that to do the marginal measurement. They're going to use legrand's multipliers. Well i paused for a second. Because i know at lagrange multipliers are. I used to teach this stuff. And i couldn't understand what they're trying to do here. And that's when the dime dropped they are trying to jargon me so i replied by saying well we all know that the lagrange multipliers measure the shadow values of constraints in an optimization problem. So would really help me if you explain to me. What is your objective function. And what are you constraints after a short pause and this is where i have to take my hat off to the founder of the consulting company. He merely responded with the only and best answer he could give. Which was steve. Are you driving now. Because i can't hear you you're breaking up to dallas. Took his concerns back to his bosses at ebay. He proposed different way to understand the impact of the online ads. Ebay was buying. He offered to run some randomized experiments to researcher. That's the gold standard and there was not any buying but coincidentally but coincidentally one of the advertising and marketing teams wanted to renegotiate a deal with yahu and microsoft network namely the bing search engine that is ebay wanted to renegotiate the terms under which they bought search ads on being and before doing that. They ceased all payments for brand keyword advertising. That's because ebay was trying to create some leverage heading into their renegotiation. Okay but now. We need a primer on keyword advertising. And how you actually buy online ads right so just like you could imagine the auction for a piece of art at sotheby's where the auctioneer puts up this picasso and says how much people are willing to pay and then give it to the highest bidder. Something similar is happening. Every time someone searches for anything on google or yahoo or being or any other search engine and you have companies that are bidding on different kinds of keywords companies. That want to advertise online. Come up with a list of words that they think will give them the best chance of connecting with people who are searching for what the companies are selling these could be branded keywords like ebay or verizon or non branded keywords like stiletto heels cable. Tv if i'm in the insurance industry and someone is searching car insurance on google i wanna be there but i don't want to be there when someone is searching for philophical unless maybe you've got a specialty line of philosophy insurance and wants someone types car insurance. The second they click enter. All these computers are basically running these auctions instantaneously. This is done with the aid of sophisticated. Algorithms they allocated to the winner. And that's how the ad pops up went to dallas was working for ebay. The company was in the practice of buying brand keyword. Which meant that if you did an online search for ebay the top result before all the organic search results was a paid ad four ebay. The federal trade commission requires such adds to be clearly labeled as ads. Although some of the labeling is pretty subtle go do a google search for something like best running shoes. And you'll see what i mean anyway. These paid ebay adds that to dallas is talking about now. This is what the consulting company said had the highest bang for the buck. Which of course made no sense from a common sense perspective. Because i'm already searching for ebay. I know exactly where i wanna go. So the fact that the ad intercepts me and i click on it is just coincidental and it. Cannibalize is what would have been a free. Click on the organic search so when ebay in planning to renegotiate their deal with being turned off their brand keyword advertising mad gave us with call the natural experiment. This is what economists dream about a change in a variable that affords a real opportunity to separate correlation from causation. We could measure visits and we measure purchases and we could see whether there was any drop in clicks and purchases and not surprisingly all the research that was taken away from. The ads just ended up coming for free through the organic search because right below the ad was the free linked to ebay. Once we had those results. I went to the chief financial officer of ebay north america and showed him the analysis to which he responded. Okay you guys. Were right what we do next. And that gave us the open door to design more sophisticated experiments to dallas wound up running to experiments along with fellow. Economists thomas blake and chris nocco the first one essentially mirrored the natural experiment. They turned off all brand keyword search ads. Which means that if someone searches for ebay ebay will start an ad the conjecture that we have which i can't see any other conjecture is that if there is no competition for keyword ebay then once you remove that add the organic search is going to be the first thing that people see and that means that they're going to go to ebay directly without having ebay pay any fees to the search engine for the advertising and that is precisely what they found surprise surprise other researchers have found even more pronounced results imagine that an ebay competitor like amazon enters an ad auction for the keyword ebay and wins at auction. This means that when you search for ebay. The top blink. You'll get is an amazon link. In such cases researchers found most people just ignore the amazon link and move on directly to ebay which means brand keyword advertising. Whether it's your brand or someone else's is a waste of money exactly imagine you're a restaurant owner. And you want a handout coupons. In order to get people to come to your restaurant and if you want to measure the returns on that coupon you really need to know how many people would come without the coupon. Because here's the thing for every person who would have come anyway. You're losing money. The analogy in my view of brand keyword advertising is handing out the coupons inside the restaurant the second experiment to dallas and his colleagues ran used non branded keywords. Just the names of things that people might be looking to buy online like guitar. Were boots or picture frame. Yes so for non branded search. We actually had no idea what the results are going to be. Because here if i am searching for example studio microphone. I'm sure that on ebay. I might fine of variety of used ones. But if i'm not thinking about ebay and i just search for studio microphone if ebay doesn't pay an ad they might not even show up on the first page. And by the way the automated machines at ebay doing the online bidding. They had a basic library of close to a hundred million different combinations of keywords because ebay has practically everything you could imagine for sale on the site so we really had no idea what the returns for the non branded searches would be. Experimentally designed used a border strategy. That's the same method we heard about in our earlier episode on tv advertising. This takes advantage of what are called. Dma's or designated market areas. What most of us think of as media markets it turns out that most people living on one side of a market border are socio economically and demographically similar to the people living on the other side when two similar populations are served different ads. Which happens all the time you can isolate the impact of the advertising on their actual purchases. There are two hundred ten. Dma's in the us and we took a third of these delays and we turned off all paid search advertising. This was an extremely blunt experiment. Where we're saying what would happen if we didn't advertise at all and to our surprise the impact on average was pretty much zero. Did you catch that. They turned off all their keyword search ads. Then measured sales and the impact on average was pretty much zero. What was ebays existing belief about paid search advertising. The company believed that roughly five percent of sales were driven by paid search advertising. Meaning that they believe that if he would pull the plug on advertising sales would drop by five percent. What we found was that sales dropped by about half a percent so that's an order of magnitude less and it was not statistically different from zero but maybe it's still worth it to gain even half a percent now. We have to know what the advertising costs and measure the return on investment when you did the return on investment for every dollar that ebay spins ebay. Believe that for every dollar. They're spending they're getting roughly a dollar and a half back meaning fifty cents of net profits and what we showed that on average. They're losing more than sixty cents on every dollar. So how did these results go over. Well the president of ebay. Who later became the ceo. He cut the paid search marketing budget. Immediately one hundred million dollars a year. So what happened next. You might think what with capitalism being the hyper competitive market optimizing perfect information ecosystem. It's supposed to be you might think that other companies once they learned about this ebay research would cut their online ad spending or at least commission their own research to test the theories. So did they excellent question. There was a lot of chatter online after our experiments became public. Suggesting that folks at ebay don't know what they're doing and paid search. Advertising works wonderfully if you know how to do it. But of course that was backed with no data and no analysis in other words the digital ad community did not rush to replicate the results now given the opportunity to save millions of dollars that the ebay research showed was being wasted. Why wouldn't other companies at least poke their own data little harder. Well i think there are many reasons. Let's start with the way in which this industry is structured. You could think of four different actors. Here there's the customer which is the company or the person who wants to advertise in order to get business and then you have three players sitting on the other side of this market. One is the publishers that would be google. That would be the new york times or any other place where the ad appears in front of people the other are the people who create ads and then finally Smaller part of the industry are these analytics. Companies that like that company ebay hired are trying to help companies spend this money and if you think of all these three players on the other side of the fence. No-one there has an incentive to basically open this pandora's box even within the company. That's buying the ads. The incentives can be complicated. Steve levitt again. If you think about it no chief marketing officer is ever going to say hey. I don't know maybe ads don't work. It's not doing and see what happens. Don't get me wrong. I'm not implying that advertising doesn't work. I'm implying that we don't have a very good idea about how well it works. Steve to dallas agrees. The potential for digital advertising would seem especially large given its ability to micro target consumers and targeting really is key because one of the lessons we learned from the experiments at ebay. Was that people who never shopped on ebay. They were very much influenced by having ebay ads for non brand keywords. You know guitar chair studio microphone and if ebay would be able to better target ads to customers that are not frequent customers. That's where you would get the real bang for the buck. So as companies become more sophisticated. They could try to engage in these kind of experiments to focus attention on different customer segments in order to see where they get the highest returns on advertising by in large. I don't see that happening. A big part of it is the naievety on the side of these customers customers. Meaning the companies who are buying these keyword ads. The one actor sitting alone on their side of the fence across from the agencies the publishers the ad tech firms and one of the things that i try hard to do is to give people enough information so that they wouldn't be able to do the job themselves but if someone is trying to sell them snake oil they'll smell something as off working here coming up. After the break is the digital advertising economy a bubble. I do think this is very parallel to the kinds of psychology. Had driven bubbles in the past. Also if you like freakonomics radio and you've gotten this far so presumably don't hate it. You may also like the two other shows that recently launched within the freakonomics radio network. One is called no stupid questions. The other people i mostly admire. I am proud to say that. No stupid questions. Which launched in may is already coming up on five million downloads and people. I mostly admire which launched only at the end of summer is coming up on. Its first million so go. Listen and subscribe new stupid questions and people i mostly admire. You can find them wherever you listen to podcasts. And now here's an ad that somebody probably cooked up just for you. Freakonomics radio is sponsored by rocket mortgage getting a mortgage doesn't have to be a hassle rocket mortgage gives you the tools information and expert help. You need understand all of your home. Loan options and purchase with certainty visit rocket mortgage dot com slash freakonomics. Because when you need a mortgage fits your life. Rocket can call for cost information and conditions equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states and m l s consumer access dot org number thirty thirty freakonomics radio sponsored by kiko kiko is defining the future of play by making it engaging enriching and seriously fun. They create hands on art and science projects designed to expose kids to concepts in steam science technology. Engineering art and kids can engineer. Walking robot designed a paint pendulum and more all from the comfort of home. Everything you need to make steam seriously fund during the holidays delivered to your doorstep get fifty percent off your first month plus free shipping on any crate line with code freakonomics at kiwi co dot com. That's k. I w i. C o dot com code freak comics west papin congregation lacey mosley aka scam artists and host of scam. Ghitis the podcast celebrating fraud and all those who practice it each week. I keep listeners up to date on current records. Deep dives into the latest scams and breakdown historic hoodwinked. Some of your favorite comedian tiny. It's like true crime but without all the did true fun as crimes with only little episodes drop every tuesday. Listen and stitcher apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. I remember congregation stay scheme. We reached out to facebook and google with some questions about their ad business and get a response to the research. We've been discussing today. Which argues that paid. Search advertising is substantially less effective than the conventional wisdom holtz. We got no reply from facebook. The google representatives wrote back to say quote advertisers invest money in search ads. Because they work they also sent some internal google research back up their claim separately. We received an unsolicited email from. How variant the chief economist at google. He attached a long list of research. Papers that the efficacy of search advertising as well as advertising on youtube which is owned by google. Much of the research was done by. Google analysts it offers a robust defense of the status quo the online ad ecosystem. Google has built off of there. Search capability is quite literally a license to print money alphabet. Google's parent company has a market capitalization of nearly one point two trillion dollars last year. Eighty three percent of their revenue came from advertising so it would probably behoove all of us to know a little bit more about how this ecosystem functions whether it's as effective as google says it is or as ineffective has researchers like steve dallas told us earlier about his research at ebay. Ebay believed that for every dollar. They're spending they're getting fifty cents of net profits and what we showed that on average. They're losing more than sixty cents on every dollar so okay. let's try to understand this ecosystem better. I we will need a guide. Sure my name is tim. Kwong h. w. a. n. g. My day job is. I'm a research fellow at the center for security and emerging technology at georgetown and before that i was previously global head of public policy for ai and machine learning at google one recently published a book subprime attention crisis advertising in the time bomb at the heart of the internet. It's about how big tech monetizes our attention. When i started to do research by very naturally started to talk to a couple of friends who work at these big tech companies and there was a little bit like talking to someone who works in national security or the intelligence community or something like that because they would be like oh adds definitely work. But we can't tell you how are y or give you any evidence for it. Google would plainly dispute that. There is no evidence for whether online ads work. Tim wong recognizes. He is tilting at windmills here. Trillion dollar windmills. But in fact he. i grew skeptical about online advertising. While still working at google he began reading trade journals and going to conferences and this fascinating experience. Where one of these keynotes at this conference was given by nicole. Newman who basically is a big ad. Critic nico newman. Is a marketing professor at the melbourne business school in australia and he presented to really fascinating studies that his lab had done the first one was looking into the quality of data used in the ad tech industry basically demonstrating in many cases. It was incredibly inaccurate and the second one was. He took dead. Aim at hype cycle around. Ai that exists in ad tech right now where people are saying if you have this latest machine learning you have this ai. You'll give the targeting in a way that you never ever were able to do before and nico's lap did. Some experiments have demonstrated that in many cases machine learning was finding people who would have bought the product anyway anyways bringing this message to an ad tech conference is a bit like bringing a safety pin to a balloon conference that looked around being like where so angry and it was just total dead air. No one responded no one engaged with it and it got me really interested in thinking about. Is there a bubble here. A bubble like the dot com bubble or the subprime bubble or the tulip bubble. Because this is exactly the kinds of behavior that occur in other financial bubbles where the red lights are flashing but everybody industry just refuses to take a look at the real data long began thinking about how bubbles happen so the origins of every bubble come in this gap that occurs in a marketplace. On one hand you have people who believe that. An asset whether it's collateralized debt obligations or advertising inventory is extremely valuable and on the other hand what you have is declining asset value so in the prime mortgage crisis believed that mortgages rose gonna just pay out regularly forever right. When next turned the package of mortgages were actually a terrible asset. There were toxic and about to go belly up. so how can wong justify a parallel with digital advertising. I think the first piece is really the big question of do people ever see ads at all. So google actually did a fascinating study not too long ago which concluded that close to sixty percent of ads on the internet are never ever even seen the ad is delivered but it just ends up in some dumb part of the page. Right is below the fold their sideline but what about the precise targeting. The digital ads are supposed to offer a two thousand nine thousand nine hundred study this one done by three academic researchers addressed this question by measuring the impact of users cookies. Those remember are the tracking codes. Most of us allowed to roam our computers and phones in exchange for all the free information we get from companies like google and facebook. This study found that when a user's cookies were unavailable ed revenues only dropped by about four percent. Why would cookies be so ineffective. Tim wong argues that people pay a lot less attention to online ads and they used to. People often forget that when banner ads first loss on the internet there click through rate was like fifty percent completely mind-bending and it's just continue to fall and fall and fall and now it's like point zero one. Two point zero three percent. Some estimates of click through rates are higher than what sites here that said precise measurement is hard because there are so many bots clicking on adds a whole other problem with the digital ad universe but no matter how you measure it click through rates have fallen a lot as the novelty wears off habituation sets in and an ad that might have once grabbed your attention becomes invisible or worse annoying. People increasingly don't want ads. So ad blocking for example is really really increasing over time. And i think these factors not being able to see ads the questions about the effectiveness of ads and the rise of things ad blocking bring into question whether his thing that we think is so valuable is actually worth as much as we think it is but if there is such a big gap between the perceived and real value of digital advertising. Why are google and facebook worth so much money. Look at it this way. There are a couple trillion reasons why tim might be wrong. But he doesn't think so. His theory is that digital advertising is grotesquely overvalued because it is still so hard to measure and one reason it's hard to measure is that the marketplace is exceedingly opaque. So there's a fascinating incident. That i always think about which is one of the last times. That mark zuckerberg was called up to congress and one of the questions that he got from. One of the senators was well. How do you guys make money. Sustain a business model in which users don't pay for your service and mark zuckerberg senator. We run ads and at the time. A lot of the chatter on twitter was like ha ha look at the super old. He doesn't know anything about the internet. But it's true that even if you talk to people in the tech industry and you're like okay level with me joe engineer. How do ads work on the internet. It's kind of a rumor like we know. This is how the business model works but no one can really explain how it works in detail. So when i say advertising a lot of people normally think of like madman right but it really looks like what the nasdaq looks like which is largely automated system that moves millions and millions and billions of pieces of ad inventory on a daily basis as steve to dallas explained earlier. Most ad inventory is sold by auctions which are run by algorithms operating at phenomenal speed. This is one contributor to the opacity of the industry for instance. It can be hard to figure out why certain ads and up on certain pages if you are a family brand like disney. You don't want your ad popping up on youtube video showing a terrorist beheading. This has been a source of chronic embarrassment to the ad industry. The prevention of this kind of ad mismatch is known as brand safety and despite the greatest efforts at trying to eliminate the risk of brand safety from the ad market. People buying largest haven't been able to again. The industry itself would disagree. We ask google how they ensure an ad doesn't show up on a page promoting misinformation or conspiracy theory. Here's their reply. We have strict policies that govern what kind of content we place ads on. And if we find the page or website that violates our policies we take immediate action in two thousand nineteen. We'd the former marketing boss at unilever helped create a consortium called the global alliance for responsible media which pushes for better add controls to protect brand safety end today. Everyone wants a well-functioning internet and everyone wants to have a positive impact on the world and not to have some of the issues. We're wrestling with right now. I think that off has not been easy. So far. This september after months of advertiser boycotts facebook twitter and youtube agreed to adopt a common set of definitions for hate speech and develop tools to let advertisers have more control over where their ads show up. But tim wong thinks the longstanding opacity of the online ad marketplaces. Just one reason. We might be in a digital advertising bubble. I think a second thing is a little bit like in the subprime mortgage crisis you have people who have very perverse incentives. I think to push the effectiveness of online ads. that's the ad agencies the ad platforms themselves. The people who run technology. All these people i think have a very strong incentive to say no. This stuff is way better than earlier generations of advertising. And this is why you should use it. If you've been listening closely you'll notice. This is the exact same problem. Steve levitt talked about regarding the tv ad ecosystem. Human beings generally make decisions based on self interest. No chief marketing officer is ever gonna say hey. I don't know maybe ads don't work. Let's not do a and see what happens. Or as the author upton sinclair once wrote it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it so there is a common practice which is not very well disclosed in the ad industry whereby an ad tech company will basically offer ad inventory at a cheap price to the advertising agency the agency remember is paid by you the client who hired them to help you so what you're selling and the agency will turn around them say you should really use this ad tech product and sell at higher price and one of the worries about this is it changes the incentives right which is typically the ad agency should be working on behalf of the client but in these cases have very perverse incentives to push distribution of a message that may not otherwise be rational or even useful to them all of these issues and all the new empirical evidence we've been discussing about the ineffectiveness of advertising has persuaded tim wong that yes. The online ad. Marketplace is a bubble and it might soon pop in fact the deflation may have already begun a few years back proctor and gamble which is one of the largest advertisers in the world decided that they would run a little experiment they were gonna take about two hundred million dollars of digital ad spending and just cut it out of their budget to see what happens. Proctor and gamble said they were doing this. Because of concerns over brand safety and the proliferation of botts which can pollute the data on ad impressions and the end result was fascinating basically said that there was no noticeable impact on their bottom line again the ad industry. We'll have a lot of explanations for why this might be or for why there's a lot of value in advertising beyond short-term sales figures but proctor and gamble is a big player even if they are wrong even to a small degree. They're the ones whose money drives the advertising ecosystem. What would happen if this turned into a mass movement among advertisers. One shouldn't underestimate the size and reach of the advertising ecosystem. The sports you watch on. Tv supported by ads. The journalism you consume supported by at least much of it. Google maps and google drive and while google supported by ads as well as facebook and instagram and twitter. Nearly everything else you consume online and don't pay for including this cast just about every other podcast. You listen to. Advertising is also important for tim. Wong whose day job is researching artificial intelligence and machine learning some of the most cutting edge research in the world is being funded by ads right if you think machine learning and a is going to have a huge impact a huge impact in the world that is from economist. Travel to medical research and diagnosis. You may want to think about what it means that most of it is subsidized through this infrastructure. So there's lots and lots of links through the economy. That are not always obvious. But i think are thinking through because it points how widespread a downturn could be so if there is an advertising bubble canopy deflated in slow controlled. Way to avoid massive economic unraveling. Tim wong thinks so but change won't come from the industry players. They have too much incentive to keep selling it's got to be driven by the buyers one of the groups that has the most to lose our people who theoretically might be wasting a lot of money on advertising but wong does not think the buy side pressure will be enough because i think one of the biggest problems in the spaces that there is no objective. Third party evaluator of some of these claims claims. That is about ad efficacy. And so what i advise is kinda punk rock n d e r. The nba er is the national bureau of economic research. What does wong's punk rock version. Look like it's basically a research group that is willing to be a little bit of a troll to the advertising industry and so again. how do we throw off the veil reduce the passage in the marketplace. You really need a dedicated group of people who are doing good research on this run where you want is a handbrake where you can slowly bring down the momentum in the market so that it can deflate without exploding there are of course. Many people and institutions already doing research on advertising spending. But let's be honest. Most of them have someone's thumb on the scale and conventional wisdom. Isn't the only thing that someone like tim. Wong is challenging. It's also the billions of advertising. Dollars that dr trillions of dollars of market value. So it takes some courage to suggest those billions and trillions may not be kosher one of my favorite arguments. That people are using right now. Is you know. Companies wouldn't put money into this if it didn't work so isn't that proof that the ads actually work. That in fact is exactly what we heard earlier. From the unilever veteran keith weed the fact that coke and dove and ford have been around for decades and the fact that companies like unilever spend billions suggests that maybe advertising does work which is kind of crazy. Circular mind maze. If you think about it. But i do think that again. This is very parallel to the kinds. Psychology to had driven market bubbles in the past. One reason to suspect that ads do work. Well is the underlying assumption that firms like unilever who buy so much. Advertising are as econ. One one textbooks tell us profit maximize irs. So why would they waste so much money. Any economists that tells you that firms are profit maximizing is not ever worked with firms. That again is steve levitt. The realistic picture of is that firms are composed of people and all of the foibles and shortcomings that people exhibit in their everyday life. They bring those to work with them. We s steve to dallas the berkeley economist. Who worked for a time at ebay. What he thought of levitz take on the non profit maximizing behavior of allegedly profit maximizing firms as an economist hearing you say that causes my stomach to hurt but at the same time. I know that you are absolutely correct to dallas. By end of his time at ebay had come to think that his cynical view of advertising didn't go far enough he recalls the time ebay asked him to measure the efficacy of affiliate advertising. Think of bloggers who put in links to say company websites. Well we worked closely with the senior director in charge of spending the money on that and after two our intensive meeting. We figured out a way to do that to do that. Meaning to measure whether these affiliate links were really worth buying he turned to me and said you know steve if your results look as bad as they did for paid search. I'm not going to believe your numbers now. I was obviously shocked because it made me realize that religion and not science is. What's winning this battle. But then i realized that it's something a lot more profound and for which. I actually have a lot of compassion. If you're working on something for ten twenty twenty five years this is part of your identity and this is part of what you believe in. And if i'm going to prove that what you thought worked so well in ways that you don't quite understand because you're not a statistician or an attrition and you have to take it at face value. What are you going to believe your gut tells you that what you've been doing for the last twenty years is really influential or some egghead academic. That's showing you a bunch of equations that you don't understand and is claiming that you're wrong. This digital advertising issue is just part of a bigger conversation about the power of modern technology companies for their first few decades. They were pretty much given free reign. But now they are facing scrutiny over the breadth and depth of their power power both seen and unseen the. Us government has brought a major antitrust case against google facebook youtube twitter and frankly thousands of digital platforms and repositories stand accused of promoting misinformation and or mishandling user. Information given all that society probably deserves a better answer than a lot of companies. Pay a lot of money for advertising so it must work. I think the question isn't necessarily do want it internet with ads or without ads. That again is tim. Wong the question is do you want an internet. That's just based on a huge monoculture. that's largely funded through ads. We're the most powerful companies use ads and we're vc's don't choose to invest if you don't use ads right and i couldn't believe suggest like no. The kind of internet that i want to see is internet. That has a bigger diversity of business models and where ads don't suck all the air out of alternative business models. I just think that's a much more robust market. I think it's more stable market over time. And i think it's one that leads to much better at socially and so i think that's my vote. Which is internet that accepts many different ways of making money. We should also say that just as different ways of making money there are many many many different forms and styles and purposes of advertising over these past two episodes. We've talked about two of the biggest ad marketplace's tv and digital but there are of course many advertising channels and within all these channels are countless variations local ads versus regional or national adds calls to action versus brand building ads about price versus ads about quality ads for new products or services versus established ones. Ads meant to inspire or entertain versus. Adds it just deliver information personally. Those are the ads. I respond to most learning some information. I didn't know about some product or service that sounds useful for fun for me or my family. I can think of at least eight or ten things. I bought after first learning about them by voicing the advertisements that go on this podcast. Our business partners have told us that one reason. The podcast industry has grown so much lately because advertising is particularly effective on podcasts given the intimacy of the medium. I have no idea if this is really true. But i want to believe it is. Why wouldn't i. It's my livelihood so you could say this puts me on both sides of the fence true believer and skeptic at the same time one might say. This is a sign of intellectual laziness. The move right out of upton sinclair. But i'm gonna go f scott fitzgerald instead. Here's how he wants. But the test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold to oppose ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function assuming i retain that ability for at least a bit longer. We will be back next week with another episode of freakonomics radio until then take care of yourself and if he can someone else do. Radio is produced by stitcher. And w productions this episode was produced by daphne chen our staff also includes alison. Craig low mark mcklusky. Greg rippin xactly conceit. Married to duke. And matt hickey are. Intern is immaterial and we had helped this week from james foster. Our theme song is mr fortune by the hitchhiker's all the music was composed by the lease scare. You can get freakonomics radio on any podcast app. If you want the entire back catalogue use the stitcher app or go to freakonomics dot com freakonomics. Radio can also be heard on many. Npr stations around the country. as always. thanks for listening. And i will measure the success of the book based on. How much pisses everybody off and on that front. I'm glad to report that. We definitely have had ad tech people being like at guys in idiot vessels music to my ears stitcher.

ebay google dallas facebook keith weed Tim wong Steve levitt two hundred fifty billion doll six hundred billion dollars trillion dollars three hundred million dollars anna tuchman twenty three billion dollars eighty percent ninety eight percent Duffner steve unilever Steve terrell della yahu
#3  Sex Analytics Censored? With Cindy Gallop

Unexpected Data

23:31 min | 5 months ago

#3 Sex Analytics Censored? With Cindy Gallop

"Hi Everyone. And you're listening to unexpected take. Today we'll continue our sex tech journey. Before to start beware disappeared is an explicit version with some illustrative language. In the field of data and technology having a governmental framework is really important. And it seems that New Zealand is the only country in the western word to have a chief censor and this chief is called Devi chinks. We must of the time thing that center sheep is synonymous who've Otari -tarian regimes like North Korea. But rather than being the arbiter of taste for the Adult Entertainment Industry New Zealand chief censor is in favor of education on sex and consent. He also explains that the interesting thing is if you don't have any authority that makes those center, Kohls you abdicated to private sector and also true group of invisible kind of bureaucrats and groups. So censorship is still happening in various ways, but it is happening in a degraded disorganized way that nobody can make any sense of it. How is it then insects take? So consider sexuality as an art therefore role models and no late needs to be accessible with related to. Try to be a better cook by looking for new spices. New Cooking methods a new recipes we only make you unbeatable in a replaceable. I'm sue this is Derek. We hit because your son just look this up online. Matt. To say. So he watches he online. On his laptop had playstation he's fine your. projector anyway, we usually perform for adults, but your son's just a kid. He might not know how relationships actually work. We don't even talk about consent. Just get straight to. Dot in real life back. I met a a young boy appears holding a laptop sees the porn actors and drop his cereal. As you have guessed it. This is the viral New Zealand TV advertising to porn performers urging parents to start sex discussion with their children. Because if you don't no one else shoot a will do it. UK government wants also to reinforce h verification. We've a new law. The purpose is to prevent under eighty s from accessing adult content, but to be honest, the effect of it can be young. You will tell me that the current checkbooks saying I'm over eighteen is not efficient and you're right. But here your age verified only by sharing identifying details like the ones that you have on your driving license or sport, and if you cannot do it online, you can get the porn pass by going to shop or your telecommunication providers. You wouldn't want to register your personal data and others to know what you're doing. And Steal. These are the measures that the UK government will put into application. These could anchorage some people to share the sensitivity. To anything online and went gathered in databases, those can be tempting targets of hackers. And when you are not a big company but more an independent website or itchy co producers what will then happen. Sooner or later those known mainstream companies can die and then not being able to found any implementation of age verification. mindscape. Operates as a total monopoly in the Porton Street and it operates as monopoly in a way that would not be allowed in any other industry except that nobody ever wants to examine the porn industry and so new anti-trust legislators gone after mine geek minding owns corn. Hav, you porn read to sex dot com it owns every single tube site and and porn production companies and so on and so forth. This is Cindy Gallop CEO and founder of make love not porn had the chance to interview for disappeared. Make love not porn is a social sex video sharing platform. Anyone can upload their real word sex videos, which will be seen by real people before release it to its members. Rather than being scripted and performed Cindy points out that, the videos must contain what goes in real life as it happens spontaneously in all, it's funny messy and sometimes awkward beautiful. Ridiculous humanness. I think he and recent studies confirm it. The issue comes when people use porn to etiquette themselves on real life sex. For sure when we can't talk about it, the transmission of knowledge is broken and each generation needs to find their own source of information and when it comes to practice, everyone is facing an awkward situation. Twelve or thirteen years ago I began realizing through dating young men. The I was encountering an issue that would never have crossed my mind if I had not encountered it so very intimately and personally I realized I was experiencing what happens when two things converge and I stress the dual convergence because most people think it's only one thing. Are Almost always experiencing what happens when today's tential freedom of access to hardcore porn online meets our societies equally total reluctance to talk openly, and honestly about sex it's when those two factors converge the porn becomes sex education by default in good way. So I found myself encounter a number of sexual behavioral means in bed. I went whoa I know where that behavior is coming from I thought Gosh if I'm experiencing this other people must be as well. I. Did not know that because twelve thirteen years ago nobody was talking about this nobody was writing about it. This was me incomplete is solution As an action oriented person going I want to do something about this. So eleven and a half years ago now. I put up the money a tiny clunky websites make love not porn dot com factor in its original. It's ration- was just words the construct was corn world versus railroad. This is what happens in the porn world. This is what really happens in the real world. I have the opportunity to launch make love not porn at Ted in February two, thousand nine. I became the only Ted Speaker to say the words come on my face on the Ted Stage six times at session. The talk went viral as a result and it drove this extraordinary global response to my tiny website that I have never anticipated thousands of people wrote to me from every country in the world young no men and female straighten gay pouring the Hawks out and I realized I'd uncovered a huge global social issue. and. So I then felt I had a hustle responsibility to take not pawn Ford's in a way that would make it much more far-reaching, helpful, and effective. And I also saw an opportunity to do what I believe very strongly, which is the future of business is doing good and making money simultaneously. I saw the opportunity for big business solution to this huge untapped global social need. And I use the word big advisedly. Because even then eleven and a half years ago. I knew if I wanted to counter the global impact of porn default sex ED. I would have to come up with something that at least half the potential one day to be justice masks, justice mainstream, and just as all pervasive in our society as porn current es as make love not porn fade greatly be pro sex brooke born for Notre Difference. In two thousand, fifteen, the Atlantic reported that bit cited at Org an online birth control support network for women faced an empress it and situation we've a lot of their content blocked on social media. and. This is only one example among many of tech giant's applying adult content policy which allow them to censor content. And make love not porn also faced such obstacles. As a new social sex starter them for years to open a business bank account. Pay Male cheap credit card processor, and streaming platform companies won't work with them. Their policy always say, no adult content. What is that telling us do we need to have a chief censor like in New Zealand to make it clear what is or not sex education? In episode one I. talked about my difficulty to fan data for the sex industry. And the few that have found were from porn herb according to send Gallup Mandic has put into practice successfully older dynamics of technology in the adult industry. So as soon as Manga releases its annual analytics report, a lot of people jump into it, talk about it and here Dsm? Dangerous Interpretation Risks. Note that data is not representative of the whole sex industry and it is not the sex behavior difference. So not the real life sakes for sure we need to start somewhere and by steps. So having more light on such data can only support to analyze it enter challenge it. CD also confirmed appoint of a high risk of a closed loop when it comes to recommendation system. That's much. Vaunted porn have algorithm you just referred to. Only, teaches people to such what porn hops up. It's a close loop because we do not talk open honestly about sex in the real world. There is no educational loop in the real world to counter that closely. And that's a very dangerous situation according to the BBC in two, thousand, nine, nine, hundred, thirty, eight percent of UK woman under the age of forty have experienced unwanted violence during. Sex. Here, Media Sam is not put into question because there's a clear and open communication for consent and permission and according to Cindy such as dangerous situation is happening because sex has become very high terror and male century. Let me give you a couple of demonstrations of why that is never going to be the place to go for sex education. I've an art project that I've wanted to do so many years I want to take the whom page of corn hop. Or you one of those sites and I want to recreate it and replicate it re shooting every single video thumbnail with agendas flipped I. Already do version of this on twitter at troll point sites. Grasses might tweet something about a blue bag and I will tweet back than Hey Brussels I want to see the female version of that I want to see a lick. I want to see a photo of a naked man on his knees and own around a bunch of women naked from the waist down shoving their pushes in his face. All process will tweet a still from video and audio on the hey brothers. The female version of that, I want to see a giant pussy looming in the foreground and cliffs up behind it. Three beaming men's faces green from it covered in procedures. Nothing would demonstrate the ridiculousness of the male Lens inform warn that do not I mean. What are your sexual values? Note that all values in society that were transmitted to us by our parents are also varied in bed for Cindy Gallop. Those values are empathy, sensibility, generousity, kindness honesty, and respect make very serious point you you've done because I am my own research night I feel admit I date young than cash and recreation love them. I see for myself exactly. What happens in the real world all the time when porn acts of sex education in the absence of sex education conversation real long. So I'm very selective about whom I date I only date utterly lovely young men with all the right values outside bed and yet in bed I, see them modeling the behavior that says, my Dick is the center of the universe because in A. Male dominated porn stray the porn that most young men and women grew up watching is porn says it's all about the man and the only thing that matters is the man's pleasure on only thing that matters is what he wants to imitate matters is whether he comes the only way to really understand what is great consensual communication sex and good sex behavior is by watching people actually having that kind of sakes. Cindy also claimed that her startups data could have a huge importance because right now quite rightly. Every body is talking about consent everybody is writing about consent. Here's the problem. Nobody knows what consent actually looks like vets and make up the media's object lesson in consent communication, good sexual values and behavior. We are literally education through demonstration, and so what we saw working on with a partner is an algorithm for consent and I'm not going to say any more about that because this is a confidential project. In fact, consent can be understood from multiple angles from real word sex videos we could collect for sure with permission victim like desire. Body feedback or reaction People's actions said action and excitement duration, etc. but what is selling an out now is netflix distributing kidnapping sexual assault and Stockholm Syndrome as heat with the movie three, hundred, sixty, five days. So, how can we make each other more comfortable with consent and especially not killed the mood? One thing that I can see is that we need to be more comfortable with words and here it seems like. To talk about genitals, we have childish or medical or dirty words. We have a very different approach to algorithms and for Cindy Real in global innovation is only possible if there's a change from top to bottom that equally distributes and value people that reflects our society as it is. The BAR is set. So low right now when the bar is defined by white men, we have not even begun to see how high the ball can be raised when we walk them in the innovation, the disruption, the creativity of women. Black talent of color talent, lgbtq talent, disabled talent. We have not even begun to the greatness of it, and this is valid for any company I would say that is even more for technology including data and data signs. It is still a Greenfield. So ease up to us to ship it for better and for Cindy it even goes until word peace Herranz will bring their children up openly to have. Good sexual values and good sexual behavior in the same way that they currently bring them up to have good values new behaving every other of life we will therefore cease to bring up rapists. Because the only way that you end rape culture and this is the only way is by embedding in society, an openly talked about promoted, operated, and very importantly aspired to gold standard on what constitutes good sexual values and good sexual behavior. When we do that, we also end me too. We end sexual harassment abuse violence, all areas where the Kobe traitors currently rely on the fact that we do not talk about sex to ensure that victims will never speak up. Never go tortoise never tongue body. When we in fact, we mustn't empower women and girls worldwide. When we do that, we create a happier world for everybody including men, and when we do that, we are one step closer to world peace I talk about make no porno attachment about well, peace nine ball checking. Another problem that a lot of sex thanks unconcern is the lack of funds. Cindy. told us that the investors won't found her because of the fear of others. The one thing I did not realize when I'm balked on this venture was at MIT would flatten enormous battle every single day to build it. Every piece of business infrastructure. Any other tech start up just gets to take for granted. We can't. I can overcome all of these issues with money investors won't fund me because the issue that we experienced that no other tech startup does is the social dynamic, the Eichel fear of what other people think, and that only slows down the startups energetics project on six behaviors and consent. It is never what the investment I'm talking to things when you understand what we're doing why we're doing it to make novel nobody can argue with it. The business cases clear. It's always the fear of what they think other people will think which operates around sex on Mike. Another area we have never had the funds to build out the kind of data analytics dashboard the I want to have we're trying to do that very slowly over time we are getting there but if that's flooding me, the tens of millions of donors they shower young white bro founders with to startup awfully trivial food delivery APPs and ridiculous gaming ventures are being a very different situation. And so no, I can't compete with anybody state undertakes because nobody will invest in me and give me the funds to build out the kind of resources that we want a need. So now the primary and main focus is on keeping make love not porn live. So Vienna if you're up to the challenge, let's become six thick hub of Europe. And for US data experts, data is data, right. The only data opportunities as it seems that no one is yet going. So let us know if you're up to support. Here. Let's all talk openly and honestly about sex and make it normal like sixty does he want to support our mission one very simple MICR action you can take, which is talk about sex every day I'll give you my own instant on facebook. A friends will post. Let's celebrations all much less now. Obviously but lovely vacations taking in tropical far away places and people leave comments on those videos. You know happy birthday or what a great vacation. So whenever I comment on their status on the birthday celebration one, I will say happy birthday. I. Hope you had great birthday snacks on vacation photo I'll go. Wow Lovely beach had great sex on it because they are. I WANNA do that people go. Right semi, we did that socializing a normalizing sex. That's why it may not. We corner solves the social sex revolution the revenue she part is not the sex. It's the sexual civilized sex to help mission everyday talk about sex being netflix. Congratulations. Listening to distant sire if you saw it, you actively breaking the Lome Lessons Taboo of practicing your sexual values in December time you're helping bring data science Susan next level in daily life. I would like to think think together for her time and her passion for bringing all of us to the next level of sixty innovation. Department of Internal Affairs of new. Zealand for the amazing work done on keeping real ally TV advertising. And expected data is a production in creation of. And you can find all the desert on your favorite podcast platform. Headless growth is true by readiness, a review of what you like and what we could change find out even more about sex and did assigned in the next. When the waiting is unbearable an writing youtube no more and good tribute reverse on unexpected dated come or wherever you listen to your guest, the curious and challenge your environment talk to you soon.

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Building, Media, and Post-COVID Trends with Joe Marchese

Venture Stories

48:53 min | Last month

Building, Media, and Post-COVID Trends with Joe Marchese

"Hey everybody it's eric. Torbert co-founder partner village global aid network driven venture firm and this is metro stories. A podcast covering topics related to tech business with world leading experts. Hey everybody welcome to another episode of village globals venture stories. I'm here today. Joined by a very special guest. Longtime friend joe. Markazi joe is the founder at attention capital and previously was an executive fox and founder at treks. Joke what welcome to the podcast here. So job by way of introduction. Why don't you talk about the first company started and y you started it what it's out to do and then we'll get into fox in attention capital. The funny the first company i started was coming called social vibe and the idea and this is dating myself with my space but Here we go is basically that like if people were publishing their web pages on mice face. How come people couldn't be The the beneficiaries of the advertising on the pages and so you know at the first what we did was we actually had people post a badge to their page and they would earn points for the charity of their choice so basically turning dollars in charity dollars and like i mean it was. We had these pink balls and it was literally we were packing boxes and sending them to people on my space and influencers. I don't wanna say influencer before their influencers. Because i think there's always been but that was it and it was super fun. And they're not that kind of evolved into you know when the games hit hit facebook and farmville and you could earn points by engaging with but the whole idea is like choice base advertising then this just became a thread through career and was actually kinda the basis for tricks after your muted on online. If we don't we don't do at least one. Hey you're on mute. During the during every zoom than than is it really a pandemic exactly time behind your jerks took that that applies to kind of premium content. which is. Why shouldn't why shouldn't if asked if the future of media lives on demand interactive. Why couldn't the advertising beyond. Why does advertising i to interrupt what you're doing. Couldn't i engage with my hands at one point and then watch my content later rather than watch it and have commercial breaks in between and so we kinda took all the tacking apply to this. This simple idea which is opt in advertising would be more effective for people and more effective for advertisers supplied it to the television kind of ecosystem were large. At that was tricks was and is an actually. That's up twenty first century fox and then you been years At fox would achieve. There was your would you there you know at first it. Was you know to figure out what advanced advertising. And i don. I still noted danced advertising. As i guess it's i guess it's everything that sucks less than current advertising and and i i really focusing on it. Stare advertising to the viewer. Everyone thinks advocating subsidizes the content. You want so. Whatever they want to do is fine. And i i take exception. I actually think that if you really took an ad that was focused on the people who are looking at the ads you had actually ended up doing that was better for the publisher's content in the long run right like a modern revenue organization. My argument has always been a modern. Having organization shop isn't to maximize the amount of revenue. They make it's to maximize revenue while least harming the viewer experience. And if you're really good you can actually make it added to the viewer experience right like google search ads for actually added and so beginning. I was focus on advanced advertising. Then you know eventually. I was an overseeing all advertising for national geographic and fx and fox sports so things like the super bowl and the world series and broadcast like the simpsons. And i gotta tell you that you know people outside of tech throw stones at quote unquote traditional media saying that you know. Oh it's so backwards and tv. Advertising terrible and the first to admit. Even when i was running it that it is not a great user experience. But there's a reason why there's a marketplace's reason why it exists. The way it does and people don't understand it until they've actually been in it and so surprising state. As long as i got to tell you the number of startups that are running multiple billions of dollars worth of revenue and highly. Profitable is very low. As as you and i know and so two run the night. That was was absolutely a chance of a lifetime. So did that for a couple of years and then as some some people out there now fox and disney had had a giant transaction. And i kind of took that time to get back into starting things the and before getting into a central topple what they appreciate for from. Not being pulled. Read a little bit. They don't appreciate is at tv. Advertising works. it just doesn't work like like the way people see it. So what i mean by that is a you know if car can be exit. One hundred million dollars in total with this tv network in total one hundred million dollars effective not everyone of the ads. I don't need to see the app forty times and yossi show people who don't necessarily need to see the ad but you know. This is one of the big myths that that the internet has fooled people about you just want to target just the people who buy your product at just the right time and that's when you send advertising people and that's not true like if something's built ford tough and only people who drive fords know that then. What difference does it make you need to. You need to advertise the brother and sister and family of the person who drives afford you need to you need to. You need to advertise the people who drive cars. Besides for brands have social currency because literally society notes knows what they mean. And the idea that it's always this is all they is actually wrong and it is one of the things that's really hurting the industry. Is we fight over the wrong things we fight over priced the cpm and it's so hard to measure output. I think this is one of the subjects in alabama a little bit on with killing the advertising industry. A lot of things that one of the biggest ones is this lie of perfect bution measure. Exactly how hard my advertising dollars are working. You can measure exactly our. They're working on the first house and customers but when you want to build a brand i want millions of customers and you wanna bring your customer. Acquisition costs down over time. The only thing that reduces cash over time as a brand and building brands is different than performance advertising. It just it just is and there's so many factors that go into it was the creative good was the is the product good important whether or not the product sucks doesn't they is what's going on in the macro economy. I used to joke. I didn't understand how people say. Oh you know. If you work with me i can help you get our ally car company acts and then we'll what if our company axes competitor giving away cars. Afraid like i is. you're gonna suffer. Does i mean you did it. They what what happens if the car company axes breaks store. I've a feeling that the advertising isn't really going to help at that point. So i think that there's but but it's a very easy intellectually. Lazy argument is to say. Oh we can measure everything and so and people like since they're very uncomfortable and everyone in tech is very uncomfortable with anything being part art. They're uncomfortable with the art part of advertising. So they just kind of overly. I think we have over song as an industry towards that side towards data Is the lied. Both the possibility of it but also the it's not a worthy goal. I think it's it's actually exactly right. Those are the two sides one is. It's not like on what time horizon i see. I see an ad for mcrib today and six months later i go buy one like. How do we know also like fourteen other things happen to me that day. Isolating for which thing lead to lead to the conversion later. And you have the tricks that happened in advertising cookie bombing and trying to spoof attribution and there's just so much of it. I mean if you work with most at performance companies and some of the very big ones. We all know gone in. But like they'll always say our report that works and yet you'll see your sales decreasing and even if you don't see your sales decreasing you see your margin decreasing and if your margin decreases you become a commodity if you become a commodity you're just gonna keep re-acquiring your customers the platform so that leads the park to. That's not the goal right. It's a really hard thing to do because famously. Cmo's ten years isn't that long so or it's not when things aren't going well and so it's hard to have the kind of fortitude. You'd need to say no. We're taking the long view on building a brand and what it means to build the brand but you see it when you see a lot of these data see companies they reach a certain scale and then all of a sudden you see billboards in out of home and i mean. I'm on the board of clear channel for a reason like i'm not. I'm not trying to work my way back to the oldest form of advertising the hospital there. I don't think there's a smoke signal advertising company out there but if there was i'd be interested in it because the it may be inaccurate but it's very hard to fake worse is feels like attention. Capital is a lot of the culmination of your of your experiences. Or at least you've kept pulling this thread greg's Talk about what is attention. Capital and then conceptualize it your eardrums. What's the threat you you've kept on pulling think there's there was attention. Capital was going to be pre covid. And then there's kind of what i'm using it for now. Jim ensures kind of common and actually have kind of taken a second to say. I think take a break and say you know. Originally in the thesis still holds the attention. Economy is kind of what the entire us economy. Our global economy is based on. Meaning the things that we give reputation to we spend our money on like how we make choices on cars and movies to watch in what we do with our attention actually shape everything else like that was just a universal thing and so i spent a lot more time now. Attention in advisory work while i wait and kind of like what i think is the most interesting threads post and and as you know. There's there's two sides to this coin which is you know. After it sold my company efforts old tricks to fox. I founded human ventures with heather hartnett and human was this incarnation of like the the superpower behind all great companies as the people in this kind of very part and parcel saying about art versus science and that successes like you know where human spend their time attention and and what you demand of others in so that was the early early stage in attention was looking at a later. Stage like people are trying to understand the attention economy or their misplaced because they've high-value value attention but they're not valued properly is a really interesting space. And then you know in a covid world it was kind of a full stop and say will what would we think will be very interesting. Post covid and so. I'm still just kind of feeling out right now. we're gonna Few points you mentioned. One is in a previous podcast. You mentioned some digital. You mentioned something along the lines of you to we've we've tended to overvalue what we can measure And so what can't be measured gets undervalued and that goes speaks. Aren't science point at those really interesting yen. i think that's it. that's absolutely. It's very hard to measure. If someone goes to an event next experiential. We all know it. You know you know. It's really sad that we're not going to south by see us in the everyone. Can everyone can make fun. Thank god we're not in vegas right now Thank god and what a crush on. How much of our careers and our connections people we got to know. What is the relationship worth. I mean i don't know how to put a price on it. They you know maybe maybe salesforce and slack figure it out on star together but but they built our careers in your networks on these things and and they're very hard to value and so if they're hard people just kind of throwing. I'll pay for what i can measure and so i believe that there's a class of things out. There that are very hard to measure their undervalued in the market. Wha what's an example that the does mind to make it a big concrete for people. I one of the first things partnered with a james's firm who were lead live aventures on entre. Becca film festival. Right in tribeca son of these things where it's like it just brand that like people recognize. They don't know everything about it. People recognize the brand and that has intrinsic value. Jane rosenbaum's the like knows how to like put together an event and showed that like moves culture like it was founded post nine eleven to bring people back to downtown new york. It's the stories that told it film festival resonate for decades you see a piece of art that gets traded and ten years later someone becomes a you know a cancer research scientists because of something they tell me how you're going to measure that i tell me how you're gonna say i'm gonna show you the of film festival and is i. I love love of that. Space like national geographic back. It was impossible to say you know the sponsors and brands who worked with a with national geographic on on telling these stories about the environment. How many kids did they inspire to change career right like forget like what the immediate roi was like. The foreign brands like these things that are very hard to measure are just just constantly undervalued and so try to get involved as many as i can. I think one of the things you find though is you can be right about being undervalued but if you can't figure out how to evaluate you can't get a paid for in the same way so and i don't i don't mind picking up that mantle as a challenge every now and then the it's interesting we have ways of measuring real like the depth of affinity your depth of loyalty or of yet varies binary berta crude talk about stone soup and endure a. You're a real keep okay so and this is not to kill all the other business books out there and i hate to take a lot of business from our friends but i think the only book an entrepreneur needs to understand thoroughly if they want to be a great entrepreneurs the children's book sue and that is because the children's extensive is told in a bunch of different cultures but basically an elder young log into a town and the other. So we're going to teach this time to make soup from a stone. Everybody in the town lapse and then the person and the elder finds the perfect stone and then builds the perfect fire in philly people. Start to get intrigued to that. Like the really build soup from stone or make soup from a stone and so someone pokes their head out. Can you really make superman stone. And and the other ghost yes. It would be better if i just had a few carrots and then person goes. Oh i have some villagers says i have some squared away. Then that happens with potatoes and then that happens with onions on happens the chicken and and for children at the end. Everyone's eating and having a good time the end of the book and the children's lesson in the book is when we all work together. We all eat. And i would say that the entrepreneurs lesson is that motherfucker could not make soup from a stone by what they could do. Is they could paint division that got everyone to contribute their unique abilities to a singular vision. Right that's the fire. And so i think great entrepreneurs you look at it. There's only two questions any entrepreneurship to answer. Which is why now and why you why now. What's changed in the world because everyone has the same ideas anyone and says hold on. I don't want to tell you my idea. Because i don't want you to steal it and you don't have an idea but like you have to say why now in the world is a time for this to exist and then why are you the person to make it exists and that second but y you i would always say the answer is because i can attract people with unique talents to this. I can attract people with unique financial resources to this. I can attract employees. i can attract business partners. Like that's like so. Entrepreneurship is stunned soup. And like throwing throw and because you're never going to end up with whatever you put on that first pitch deck. It's going to change a million times. You have to be able to see the vision and get people to contribute to it and then at the end everyone elite the a of that that as as a metaphor i want to talk about the attention economy. A post covid book. I maybe let's do a little bit of historical recap windsor thought. Experiment for you is if we were having this conversation in two thousand six when you started. I mean you've really been spread for decades. Now let's say this conversation. You know fifteen years ago and we were speculating over what the ecosystem would look like in. The attic is in in twenty twenty. Are that Attack what would we have is similar to what we might have predicted or if you deserve talk about like what's happened relatives expectations. Or how do we think about like the different phases that are major turning points in industry. A yeah i think i think you would have predicted. Tv's fall a lot faster than it did right. And even even i prior to actually getting a chance to work in television and see the other side right would have predicted that faster In what you realize again. Brands are built that way right. Oh like data targeting human. The human brain doesn't work like we're not. We're not comfortable with the fact that the human brain we still don't actually understand how we have ideas and thoughts and how he shaped these things so so. That is one that you would have gotten wrong. Ever a lot of people did at the time know the rise of performance marketing but whole new class of advertisers so affiliate advertising so what used to be called. Dr on tv. That just got that last little bit. That wasn't willing to be paid for by the fortune. Fifty or the the biggest of the big in digital. That's you know. That's actually that is the eighty eighty twenty right like like you know. Wish dot com going public. You know sometime coming up here. It's it looks like these companies that there aren't building a brand. This is the of a lot of man this affects the advertising. And how you would have had predictions is. You've always said that okay. There's there's brands and retailers and retailers basically a house of brands right walmart and an everyday low prices the value proposition to consumers as we're going to curate the best that's available then we're gonna make that available to you then open marketplaces. Don't worry about that. We're not going to cure it. It'll be an open marketplace banking just before koga you started to see that open marketplaces don't always advantage. The consumer like why wire cutter exists right like like you. Don't go to the front page of amazon shopping. You go to the front page with an intent right in so. I think you wouldn't have predicted that. There's a whole class of advertisers. That are actually going to take a large part of the digital market. A large front of mobile a large part of performance large part of like social is affiliate marketers rather than brand marketers. And that is why. You haven't seen television really pullback or billboards. I love out of home because i as as hard to measure as it is. It is so present literally present. Irl ride and so. I think you would have. You'd have missed that. Those didn't decline as fast. I think you would have expected to see smarter. Advertising in traditional places like tv getting more targeted out of home billboards becoming the minority report version of out of home. Billboards where you know they recognize the you're walking by and they they say something to you. So that's that's interesting. But then i think because of those two market distortions the rise of a whole new class of advertisers soaking up all that excess inventory. And i think you would have never predicted as much fraud as it probably exists out there today. I think the open web barely exists anymore right. I mean how many websites you go to a day that have advertisements on it. That aren't a part of the big. You know calling the big fifty like the new york times or espn or something like that or be part of a walled garden facebook instagram. So then if i say the rest is open web. How much do you think is left out there. Probably not much. But i would guarantee you. There's billions of dollars trading and impressions on that market. So that's the that's bizarre to me. Still go figure that one out in the ad tech from like a venture perspective. I'm sure you've gotten hit up over the decade plus over all these ad tech startups asking you to Advice like How is it performed relatives expectations urges. Have you sort of approach that. That's face yeah. I never take my advice and add and actually i would. A most people shouldn't take advice from people who are jaded by because it's too easy to see everything that can go wrong right. It's too easy to see how stone soup is gonna spoil right. Because i know everything. And i and i've said this could make a lot of money. I don't think it adds value. And i think that there's a lot of ad tech out there that can make money for someone because it's it is it is eerie. How similar out some ad tech Say a lot of ed tech is to flash boys if you read the michael lewis book right front trading again impression. Getting past fourteen times before it finally gets delivered in each person. Took a penny out like what's going. There's something really weird and so might my biggest. My first point is i'm short in the long term. If that's such a thing. I don't think i don't actually trade stocks but i'd be short and long-term but like i just think that there's probably is a lot of money to be made right now because it's something feels off the relating. Let's talk about if we're having this conversation ten years from now which which. I hope to be doing. How many be different. Or what would you expect deserve. Accelerating the things you mentioned or any other. Major shifts are turning points. You'd expect that. I don't think that the market's going to correct slowly. I think it will. I think they'll be a crack. They'll be a break where like when we're pricing were only pricing things that we know how to price like like impression soleil but not all impressions are the same. I think it'd be if i told you that. All impressions are impressions and then we quality score them. I mean at some point will realize. I do think that the amount of inventory inventory hate calling back israeli people's attention the amount of men of real time people are spending in environments where there are ads is decreasing netflix. Flix ad free. Hbo right and the place where they do spend whether our ads tiktok snapchat instagram is. But most of those advertisements one. It's it's it's. It's a small fraction of your total time spent there whereas it was seven minutes an hour and television so the total amount of time people are spending with ads is decreasing and yet the total number of ads. People are seeing is being counted as going up all right so how long in that continue. Before there's some sort of reset someone will figure that out and someone will make a lot of money figuring out what that with that reset is. I've happy to advise one of those or investing one of those. I'm done westie trying to fight the good fight. The eh you're done because combination of Or the big opportunities elsewhere Or i think there's a bigger opportunity elsewhere much. I'm so interested in in you know and we'll get to this. I know that like can post covid like again. Local experiential is going to be massive. The crater economy is is changing rapidly right now because they're in multiple. They're all world gardens with their multiple gardens right. The tools are existing. I also think that you know it can be difficult to make an honest dollar in ad tech right like you if you if you're not willing to play the game if you're not willing to like you know look the other way on traffic acquisition audience extension and the thing. It's it's like you know. I don't wanna tell some founder. No no don't do that. Because you know you wanna be the white knight in the industry and then and then but then they can't make living right. So that's that's tough and and you'd love to be there when the when everything corruption but you know what they say all the time that Being early is is worse than being wrong. Sometimes because you're even more frustrated because you knew you were right saw I like the point you made in another as well where he said. Just talk about attention to comedy business models. You mentioned it used to be you made so much money that you made money You're trying to take everyone's attention or based on how much attention you could take a now. It's how much attention you could save the scheme as an example of maybe he will will save you. Bhutan does rita's. We'll tell you everything did not think. There's a whole. There's a clash of businesses right. Now that are saying this. Is this universal truth. This is true you know before before we got to the current state. It'll be true later. A time our only finite position in. I think i think time is equated to your attention and someone and i just heard it recently Might even someone talking to galilee. But it sucks about attention in time are actually sink. You can't multitask like there is a chart that comes out every year that like well. There's thirty one hours in a day because people have two screens open. And that's what they just want to say that that's why there's that's why they can double and triple count because otherwise the impression numbers make make no sense and so people are looking for things that saved them time and and enhance the experience of their lives. Meaning uber uber is everything that is an attention economy thing. But like hey. I can reduce my stress of. Were park in all these. There is so much more that goes into that in the scheme is a is a simple and so a lot of social media is trying to maximize the time you spend with them so that they can then turn that into something and then consumers are going the other way and like i mentioned wire cutter before and what's going to save me time but max my for the experience will be on the outset and i do think that's actually why i'm kind of bullish long. Run on things like walmart. The retailer meaning. I'm going to guarantee you that. I've spent the time to check this and it's not. It's not necessarily an open marketplace in that there's this kind of evolution of delivering value as experience in time back. That's that's a big big opportunity on the wall at talk about the future of of platforms retailers whereas brands future commerce. You was brand or or commodity. How the plano. yeah. I think that was all open. Marketplaces optimize for percent margin and. That's really really important. Because if i make something for ten dollars and sell it for twelve dollars. Humans are like two dollars. That's twenty percent margin. That's great right two dollars. But if i make something for two cents on a solid for three sons right you're saying that the penny. Oh my god. I'm not going to do that. That's that's no money. But a computers like that is amazing. Do that a trillion times. That's fifty percent right like that. That's a much better margin than the twenty percent and so open. Marketplaces always tend towards percent margin because percent margin can and get put back into marketing promotion. It doesn't matter whether it's good or not. It doesn't matter whether it's value or not and the platform doesn't take responsibility for the product in the way a retailer might and so. I think you're seeing a whole class of these and walmart's obviously gigantic. So it's just the biggest example that you go down to you see. These curator's of products and of emerging that are acting as retailers. Almost meaning stamp of approval. On what this what. This product is saving you. Time from having to go navigate around and this is this is not just true for physical products. I think guides to guides to travel guides to food guides to entertainment. What's worth your time is a big category and this is kind of the new retailer. And that's that's the value proposition the let's talk about post covid A few themes is some of them are sort of returning to your back to what it. What like local for example. And we'll get into it but first let's talk about. Where does he coveted. Postcode world as being fundamentally different than than a pre covid world. What where we changed the game and hesitant on this one. Because i think not not not meaning a bad pun bugging. We're getting a lot of false positives In terms of work from home or work remote and so forth because a lot of people who are working in had worked together in person prior right there was so much that went into people in in collision. You know peace tiny shea one of the better than like in our industry one of the better humans just period and he talked tons and he basically designed the ladd is people that have collisions and talk to each other and connec because back to you can't measure everything like like the roi human relationships is is just. It's immeasurable so i think more comes back than we think. Now i don't think it comes back that say it's coming back to work one hundred percent like we did before sitting gannett nine to five probably not right not really that in a lot of places anyway but is it eighty percent back. I think i think. I think it's more back than i think. It's more back than than we're currently living with. I do think that there's been celebration towards people learning I've spent a lot of time with the founder. Ceo and help him co fans coal reserves restaurant reservations and we want people just to walk away from the table. Like you walk away from the newburgh goes just easy enough to take a credit card and walk over now. You can't sit down to restaurant without a qr code so everyone's got their. There's almost like this. I think was alexia machine who can set it. There's almost like a stimulus for users because like people will try your product right now. Them's the things that were pre covid. Because i want to use the overused but very true. This was an acceleration of current trends though the Put a different way. It was obvious. Pre covid that there's a better way than handing your credit card and someone walking away. And why can't i have the stored and why. Why don't you know what i'm eating. That was obvious is very hard to fix because the way things were done. We're good enough and it was obvious. Pre cove it. That retail was going to change and it would retail is going to have to become experiential but now kovic said great reset. Let me give you my favorite example because you have to look for a silver linings especially when you live in new york city where it was really rough and i bit but if you remember pre covid new york city the l. train. Which was the train that goes from brooklyn to manhattan was gonna shut down and there wasn't anyone in the city who wasn't like this is gonna be the end of the world. I don't know how we're going to get by like the l. l. train apocalypse but we had a pandemic l. change sticks known even noticed it. So you know it's like it's like it's like you know if you don't figure out what are the things like. What are the infrastructure work. That could be done now. That could not have been done before. What is that fear. Startups does that for products. And what does that for retail. That's interesting let's into a few examples. Let's talk about the future of local and where you're excited where you're looking so i think that if you define the future of local into two big buckets right one is s. Nba right like arbor's in restaurants at you know things that are no matter. What on a post covid world you still have to go back to like otherwise can't a but you're gonna have to load balance humans at this point right you're going like scheduling software is going to become bigger and there were a lot out pre covid but post covid kind of how you think about. Smb at a local level like what is done for ecommerce for small business. What is that for all local like the interactions with people so smb is one giant category of local. Go down what restaurants which are going to hurt so badly coming out of this But you know there's a lot of we'll be a lot of chance to rebuild and there'll be a lot of appetite for it that was a pun intended f- but there'll be a lot of appetite from consumers for so so look maybe we have. We have some benefit here. In new york city outdoor dining soon be permanent. Took them hundreds of years to get to outdoor dining in europe. And we just skip ahead so so like so with all of this like that's the other part of local. That is very interesting is local experiential. What is gathering gonna look like post. We know people are going to go back to concerts. We know people are going to go back bars. We know people are going to go back to movies. I mean i am very very close and very biased to one that i'm how are people going to like. I think moviegoing will be a giant business post-code but the theaters won't look like they did in the past. How are you going to get to mixed. Use spaces being used to exhibit a movie so people can gather around it right. Both because of what's happening with tribeca and what christie's company is story spaces. That is fascinating to me. So if you find things that are going to want to gather there's going to be consumer demand for it but it won't look like it did pre it like retail people will want to you know for everyone who thinks retail is dead. You know the overused but absolutely on the nose examples apple like they sold everything and now you can't. I mean apple stores lines around the corner everywhere for them. So don't tell me that. Like i like that example by apple google amazon physical physical locations coming just about everywhere. I use that same example in in advertising when people are like especially start. Ups and tech people like billboards at so dominant. Like you know. The big buyers of billboards are tech companies. The number one. I mean is the top end television to top categories apple amazon google. So so if you don't know what they're doing when it comes to advertising at your mind the same thing with retail so that means it will be there but apple can do that. They the resources designed to do it. But what will that be all small businesses any anyone. Who's doing retail changing to an experiential mixed use spaces. Big deal that we weiner would you would you talk about virtual goeller or virtual gathered so then virtual gatherings is so this is more on the gaming side and or look we always over index every time of virtual worlds comes in. We always say this is it. We made it second life. We could probably find half of half of the articles that are being written today. Another difference today. Is you know the the epic and kind of unreal engine behind it meeting multiple building gaming environments and and i think obviously map ball has some of the best stuff on this. But can you make kind of virtual gathering of meet an i r. l. experience later Because i think things either have to pay off. I l. otherwise over time the value becomes diminished. Because you're either you're going to question yourself fully and isolate which during the pandemic to again back to like indicators. That are a little too strong right now but in a post pandemic world you're gonna wanna mix your digital interfaces to kind of pay off in your real world relationships somehow and so what will those look like and so thinking a lot about what that is. Let's get back to work in a new concept of new purpose economy Videos all right so the purpose canning lines on it. I love love love. And i haven't really a threat in terms of what makes the business model for it. But you know if you if you believe that we're in a place where you keep seeing an increase in in disparity of of the wealthy and the haves and have nots right. We're going to get to a place where we're going to have automated. We're gonna trucks. That can drive themselves. That's a huge huge portion of jobs and labor in the economy restaurants are going to become more efficient in so many ways. Like you've you've you've got tellers in a cvs and other convenience stores that don't need to have people standing so all of a sudden arbiter our economy will be just as efficient as it always was. It'll be more efficient. While produce plenty of food to eat will plenty of housing produce listening and you know. I'm actually i personally a fan of. Ub i i think i think that that something along the lines of you but i think you need more than that and i think that there's this purpose economy the same way i think in attention only the things that can get measured or being valued. We all know that childcare is valuable to the economy. But it's not paid for out of the economy coaching. Your local little league is valuable to the to the community but it's not paid for civic. Participation is valuable to the community but not paid for spending time at nursing homes and with the elderly is valuable to the community and the economy but not paid for so if you could take everything in the economy that is valuable but not paid for and put put metrics to put numbers to it. I've thought about you know. Kind of a serendipitous karma kind of like a foursquare for doing good deeds that just pops up on a map and the there's something to this idea of a purpose upon me and there's two reasons why i am so bullish on this as a giant up three. The work michael tubs did in stockton kind of Putting out the flagship program. For what is you be. I look like what's possible that how this is possible at scale the other is team rubicon which is run by a former marine them. Jake would in this idea of retraining. That's who have an amazing skill set to work in disaster relief and while yes it's great. They're helping in disaster relief. It's also just given a bunch of purpose and community and connection of human beings in this city. Look at these things at scale and you say you know who would be a great client over the next ten years governments as they literally print money. And so have you said. I wanna help build a system like kind of a new teach for america. A new kind of a new a new this idea of of value properly valuing rewarding the purpose economy and tying that to a ub. I that's my son's only had they're going go do that. And i'm i'm all in a the idea of going to be noodling on that one. How about in terms of Just the future of work as it relates to a distributed companies are How you see that playing. Yeah you know. I think you know a lot of people who can talk a lot smarter but like i said i think we're we're over indexing now for how easy older it'll be distributed but that means that talent could be anywhere in so you know i. I really started my career back in two thousand monster dot com and like the job boards job. Boards are really just advertising china match labor and employment. And you see the ones today like if you think about the muse By catherine men show or you think about what lincoln has done for passive employment. It's like it's gotten more efficient the labor market but if all of a sudden you said okay we'll now more people can work in more places. Do we have the job boards of the future for small. Like how does the small business take advantage of that. I know how big business takes advantage of it. I know how microsoft can outsource to africa like development. But i don't know how you know a smb down the block or up like is like which jobs are going to become remote and then you know. How are they going to support remote workers. How do you replace things everything that a job is so back to why collisions are so important. Your job isn't just your where you go to sit behind the computer for eight hours. I hope that your job is where you go to talk to. people about. Game of thrones at aren't your family. Your job is like where you were. You make social connections and friends and and so all of that gone in a distributed world. So how do you rebuild that right. I really it's the is the work of occasion but like mix settings versus your own office but then did they have culture even though their their their own company they think is does the location have culture even though you all work at different companies. Like let's the you know. People people over drinks talk about jobs so so people who can figure out how to replace or supplement. What used to come out of your job. That wasn't just doing your job in cranking on which it straight hours the the way to the future of connection How how do you see that playing out or excited their wall. It's it's in that vein. Which is i think. So much of our connection with other people came from a where we worked at. It's it's it's who your friends were How you connected with over social and so like how you interact with. People was heavily. I r l. Almost i right. And yes you can meet people distributed in you have it. You'd have a virtual relationship however that is but again there was always an iro pay off and then at that level you could go deeper in the future you know especially in covid world as kinda go back to a rebalancing what what what will that be you know. I think that the ones that have had the biggest gains in this last up during the pandemic as you see a lot of fitness right but the fitness aren't just fitness evening about peleton is is hardware meets content meets community and so purpose-built huggers. Anyone can say oh. Well it's it's it's an ipad screening bike. But it's not because just. There's no risk that it's going to not work for exactly what its purpose built for. Is designed tonal mirror. Same thing purpose built hardware meets the content. That's on it and you begin to build a community around it so we'll have that for concerts like. I'm sure you've tried to do it. I know i have like like during the pandemic like okay. Let's all watch contra friends and you've got a zoom setup in the near looking at the screen that's on the far wall and the sound isn't just right and everyone needs to. That's not right. So someone's going to build purpose built hardware so that we can be more communal around group. Events I'd be interested. Portal started to go down that way right And if that's the one dotto where zaka what's the peleton for for social connection if spoken some people who are working on products dating side. They say that you know the data in our. You're holding your phone in front of your face but like the how you'd wanna sit if you're sitting with someone and having a conversation day there'd be atmosphere around you that you could talk about. There would be music that would play on both sides. Make all of those things which are which would require almost purpose bill and if thinking not just repurposing a laptop Laptop camera or on camera and people are having now like they'll set up a ring light. They'll set up a will. The phone will be here so they can sit on their couch. But like someone's going to say okay all the stuff you've been hacking we're gonna make a real product for and make it better but the way you mentioned biggest gains. You're on fire with the puns today. Okay i'm retroactively making that one intentional yesterday. I thought we'd get caught. You were going to say Only just because that is absolutely taken off the that goes that this category of creators. Right like this this this idea that monetization following. But you don't need to have like so. All of the internet was based on accumulation of a vanity metrics. They weren't necessarily meaningful like most impressions. I reach one trillion impressions a day. I don't even know what that means straight like. I you know. I reached every every adenauer reaches ninety percent of the population weird. I don't know how but like they do. But like can you make it like. Can you make a cottage industry in a note. You don't wanna get the scale you actually to be. You wanna have like hundred fans in. His economic revival doesn't set of one hundred thousand fans and that seems to be would only fans of shown and it's been proven time and again Adult content gets there first on the internet in terms. Of what makes what makes money and then the rest of the figure out to a maybe a little bit about of booze banks and other regulatory mode businesses. Yeah so this this. This is new and interesting but like such interesting. A lot of my time with a tequila company and i basically i'm partnered with the ceo and founders a friend of mine for years and we started building in mean literally distillery in mexico. An import licence untaxing an innate. Us you have a three tier rule which means there's no such thing as real data see like the what looks like the is still going through the three tiers right you get it. In into an importer those distributor the distributor goes to a retailer and then it can go to a consumer and all of this is so it looks so painful from the outside and yet you realize that that's built in regulatory boat that once you figured it out you're on the other side there's a lot there's a lot of room to run and you're seeing syntech right now. I mean you just thought with with with the massive round that current justed. We were there from the very beginning. watching stewart like build a bank building bank is expensive and very hard and highly regulated right but once you on the other side of building on the rails right instead of thinking. Oh well this is easy a while. let's get direct to consumer. No you build a bank. You do the hard work and you're on the other side of the regulatory moat now. What's the best product for the consumer. How quickly can we read on the brand. How do we market. And i think the same thing and alcohol. I think so. I've actually kind of come at one. Eighty on what. I think about regulatory based businesses. Now i want to find people who are want to take it on but actually have the ability to do it. It is capital intensive to get there. But if you believe they can get to the other side. Then they can truly differentiate versus like most things indeed a c. You know not most. Because actually manufacturing a decent product is always hard to do. That could be remote but most things were like. Oh anyone can pick up. Pick up a laptop via facebook ads in there in this business. That's that's like i. I think that's a bad place to be the sutphin tag healthcare education. Yeah i mean like healthcare. I'd love to see someone do more with i. I haven't gotten anywhere near other than you know. Some some companies that that human found some amazing founders. That no it. Because it's one of those things i wanna see a good fixing it. I don't. I don't know and i'm perfectly comfortable with that. But like one sturt lynch lynch. You're on the other side of the regulatory. So the one paloma which is doing hypothyroidism. I once they figured out this is doctors. Treat people with tele presence. This is what's allowed this is n. it becomes. Okay now it's marketing and product and we're all good marketing and product they. That's why i get nervous. People pitch deck and it looks beautiful but they don't know have a have the guts of it have to work to and then your interest goes in the future commerce. Of course we've talked about. Is there anything we haven't talked about there that you're excited about. Is it a wire cutter for a detailed yard. What we're excited about. yeah. I think that is true. I think if we see people pushing democ start to pull back on how much they spend on experiences versus how much to spend on things have they trust brand. So i think you know. The same thing is happening in multiple industries in entertainment and in products. It's amazing have similarities. The barbell meaning there used to be a spectrum of quality of goods right now. There is commodities goods that you're just acquiring the customer one time the all the affiliate marketers the lowest of the lowest cost whatever it is and in the highest or winning. Lvmh right like like the. The quality matters the brand is nike patagonia. Like in the middle is going away right. It's the same thing in content right. I'm either watching you know. Hbo or i'm watching fx much. The americans i'm watching or watching talks. That cost nothing and the middle has gone right and sell. I think that consumers will be able to pare down two things matter most of them. They'll they'll pay up for brands that they trust in the reason. Why brand matters is brand. Is the promise of what you experienced. Last time with. The company has the same. You'll experience this time. You know when samson got all the flack because the phone the battery issue that was that a big deal because of samsung and they're gonna make more funds in the future and they had to earn consumers. Trust in better fix it and they better do this. If that was just brand x. Commodity why and it just disappeared like no one would have been held responsible for that right so consumers will pay up for brands. Because there's this idea in fox's favorite say this idea of object permanence it's like you know when you cover bids is and you shot and then you show yourself as ecoboost because like they don't know that you're still their brands are object. Permanent will be there six months from now. It'll be there. You're not can trust the ingredients interests the product and then everything else will be a commodity that i will require the customer events through the platforms facebook whomever and the margin on commodities trends towards zero That's the way it works. The that's a that's a great place. My guest today has been of attention. Joe thanks so much for coming on. The podcast has been great episode. Got him tequila. You're an early stage entrepreneur. We'd love to hear from you. Check us out at village global dot.

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How To Silence Your Saboteur, To Build Grow And Sell Your Business w/Remy Blumenfeld

The Authority Project

37:09 min | 5 months ago

How To Silence Your Saboteur, To Build Grow And Sell Your Business w/Remy Blumenfeld

"Alright Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls. Feast your eyes in tune your ears. It's that time. Again, we are live with another episode of the Authority Project. It's the video podcast dream Don facebook youtube twitter, and periscope where we talked to digital marketers, business coaches, and creators of all kinds on how they built authority in their field and how you can mimic their success developing authority building your audience attracting clients to your own business. Now, without further ado, let's bring to the virtual stage your host Brian. S Arnold. All right we are live. We are live. Key when episode for you and I am here with my new friend here, Rim Blumenfeld is in the virtual building today. How are you doing today sir? Really well, glad to be with you. Awesome we. Got Together pretty much at the last minute here I'm glad you got to get you on here on a Monday. I'm not sure if it's Tuesday yet for you very close right Awesome. So he says he's here to help us. SCIENTIST SABOTEUR To build grow in sale. Our business. And I am very interested in this topic because I think a lot of us have done this inordinate pass. Sure we all. Had Saba cheer in our minds that have have. kind of taken away from our goals in our dreams, and he's here to remedy that here for us today I'm so happy is here do that to us today. But before we get started, please let me know who you are personally and professionally. So. I hold British and American possible. I spent some of like working in the states and then returned kingland where I grew up. Mostly, like real was in media as an entrepreneur running founding running companies which I sold. And then towards the end of my career Brian, I just have a most of the what I was doing with senior leaders might. Organization was coaching because when you left with senior people, they need to be told what to do out to did it. They need to be supportive in champions and held accountable just really well coached us. Some training that I could actually do that professionally and what I discovered was that it's much better to coached people who actually want to be. That sound obvious that invite full of professions I found myself catchy believe it necessary want to be coach wasn't in the job description and they wanted the boss Apps to tell them what to do will appreciate them. Even the payrise they didn't really want Boston coach. So I now coach leaders across created sector most often found founders, other areas and I essentially help them avoid all the mistakes that I made along the way. Wow unbelievable. So I am excited to get you to get you start with some questions for you. But let's let's start here. First of all, what is what project are you currently working right now? What's your? What's your? What's your project that you're on that you want to tell us right today? Project that I actually started heavy twist to roll out the most essential, leading the deliver clients Wallo on to an audience worldwide. So with my founders like coach while on wallet used to be in person marriage on. June. I found that many of them have the same issues because you. said. I ended up essentially a repeating because I would do the same modules replies. So I turn that into prayed on nine modules, which is stand up. and. It's available to anyone who's a found a content driven business and that means a business which. Is Driven by ideas was onset people. So most of my clients intelligence fell advertising alleging. Aging gaming anything. which is. final. Products started with an idea. Okay. I like we're going. Going my friend so but for before, we get into a lot of the how to stuff here tell us where your journey started. Tickets back to the time. Where you felt compelled to start your own business tickets back to that time for us. Yeah. I suppose. For many of us that mode apple somewhere children and some adults says. You'll stupid. You'll get it up. sign a promise to ourselves to prove them wrong. Yes. So I, guess that happened to me h life like most people but. When I actually did something about it into the study business was I was in my twenties. And, a TV producer I was working for channel if the United Kingdom the went off at overrun. up and. Of course, everyone at the highest level been demand new allow that weeks months years for. Those of us on the coalface. Simple one day to the next I what. And I money. So I decided to. Be, decision I just did what I was. Sent out ideas from her. Get Mad look good enough get on TV before when I was working for a big organization that same ideas offset out and I must have sent out a lot in the Brian. Ninety hundred TV ideas and heavy out of those set by. Usually. The nuts note absent who attended to not always, but basically note. Asked to figure out maybe it wasn't the ideas that the problem because years of quite good I think maybe it was neat. Because no one wants to trust that much money and responsibility to a single person ripen from the bedroom. People want to trust that much money responsibility company that they entrust said, I stopped at a company and. With a short while some of those same ideas that have been found out will now the. Eventually emission laptop started my business. Awesome. I. I know I want to get this this question out to First of all to I wanted to hear hear your your story on this. Brings us to that moment. When you sold your first company what was that day like for you? Few. Because that wasn't the date. Yet. WHO SELLS A company Eight when we finally signed. Off until that day I? Might not happen this way when s everything you want is. About to come to fruition in the signing a piece of paper show instinct is think there's GonNa be Hurricane Peasants GonNa die. I say this slight seriousness because Appliance Ryan was coaching up until cody And Ghost with the with Now I comprehend from it that. That can shoot thousand, nine one that I. so lifeless. I was imagining a pandemic I was but. It wasn't much off to that mode society nine eleven happened for instance was lucky with the timing but. I. Guess. You have. Healthy labout things I think has a lot to do with whether we set them out something we wanted to have happen. Because I, could have sold my company and not wanted to sell it or not plans. And then it wouldn't have felt like it fell to me. It felt really good and it felt like a real achievement because I've set out for myself as a goal some five years before. And I am very often gotta look around days that happening to other people. This is very much. Exaggerated by social media but we we look around the new amazing years. Amazing achievements at. We think well. That's that's why hasn't it happened to me. We might even look at it in a very simple way might look at some of these vacation you know that they had in New Zealand of while amazing vacation I wanNA know. The truth the truth is eventually plan these things and say to. That is what success looks like. Just what impact? Were the does happen. We think it success. Excel on Hannity tickets in new, Zealand. Think about success you. But if you wanted it the ten years in bad apple, you would our plan to sell the company happen and I was like did. I like it. I like it so Are. So I just going to dive deeper into that too. I think this is where you're going but let me just let me know this case. We talk about science in the saboteur in impact in the business. Is that what you mean? We're we're we're not planning it or just go into that. Thousand. Seven Thursday. With. We we have lots of people talking with all the time and all those people are us by. Yet and that's the president who you you me and everyone. Is, having the most feek was most important most constant policies it's. However, there is a big part of also. That holds US BACK So We'll light the thing I like to think that. I at helpful to me that the president migrated one station with wants the best for me and we'll push the and champion the and driving to. A success unfortunately doesn't work that way. We will have a voice in our this program to action protect us from danger protect us from being killed by the enemy eat by. and. Close, that's helpful at. Times but whenever isn't real enemy and there isn't really alive? What is protecting us from is this is protecting us from back thing the world. So scandal. and. Chief is afraid of failure. We don't take risks. We don't experiment you don't outside law compensate. You don't stretch by being afraid of Fayette listening to the voice in your head saying the other try that Ryan, what what does the cops? No listen. Invite another gas luck. Lost on. We listened to that boys we do anything. To protect ourselves by staying safe place all. Salvations essentially I mean. Sometimes when everything is taken away. And we have released to rhys because there's nothing to lose. But when I lost my job, I didn't really have that much lose like sobbing company because. The one thing that could happen. Gang. Even. So goes the voice my head and say you that Neil just yet burden that. So. Voids is always designed to protect us from taking risks, but those risks necessary will success and A. If, we have time for me just briefly mentioned this, but the the exercise I encourage old plants to do. Because you can now banished voice will always be that. Buyers that comes back onto your computer you wipe it you get achy known antivirus software the end. Later. So that that's just how bad boy slipping back. Someone always trilling you you. were. Doing something good was going to be some troll. Now. Sadly In, your at. Full the savage up and if you have a memory of Cain, you can get it a nickname. Big Funny Thirty seconds stowaway comes able. So so I have a couple of things not suggest to everyone who? One is Find. Some other helpful voices if appeal saboteur is always saying. I know. Out, that the from yourself Debbie too pushy in south promoting. That's voice. A lot of people have you know? He. was himself fussell lost all of that stuff? That, we need to have most of all to promote ourselves. We're not getting there's no business. Accu believe that boys. Has a certain amount of physical backing but not really in the truthful. It has been said by the people in the Bible. Yourself us, but actually have to do is operatives. In that case would be somebody. Who you know maybe maybe not a positive maybe to relative or friend all many a witness who has that quality in balance is oak real tyler it's. Self, promotion in in a great way they show everything they always that name for things I mean. Yeah. We will take somebody like that. We admire them because for them. Right. Channel BACCHUS. Salvageable if you. Fight it pushes up the channel that question who view is fantastic south promotes and just off yourself in those moments. What would she on E. Safe to do? What would they say? Because we know in an instant known second, what they would advise us to do. Right. What would She say. Show. Channel. Channel the person has quality that you lack and just have been he'll go to. One of my championships. In this realm you saying well run, he just goes away just looks handed on the side of the high wait for it. So we just need those voices. We can instantly accidents that are advice without having to think too much about you know that story of like grandma she had a good advice I channel Ari by fled to. Be Good I might like et she was really good about that. She had a hits you'd on he doesn't need to do that status. So, just channel have and it's Just, fine you ever. Life Has a quality you lack. In any situation, listen to that and do a basic notorious outside says what they say the other thing is really useful exercise you do this already but. Just say out loud every day yourself in the morning when you wake up in the shower whatever time a day to she best I recommend say loud. What it is you know to be true So a life I'm feet. I'm healthy. Capable I originals and strong. You say this things lap and then add in the lowest a talk O'Brien feel a little uncomfortable, but it won't be using feels uncomfortable with. You'll. Be. So, like for me I'm. Saying on handsome that's only the stroke saying I'm rich. Struggle. is those things like their relatives of people said that had some rich saying? Possible, am I seventy town new? Right now you're not. The ones leading the of a struggle yourself savage say no is the most important ones. So if you saying. You're saying I love and your seven just gang up. Was On that. Do not all. You'll find out where the virus is by the reaction you have in your mind his buddy when you're saying the things he. Said just saying that every day allowed ten twenty. That's the things that you are and a couple of things that you sort it would likely be more of. In my gobble before maybe not back when she in south promoting, but you want to see more of that you channeling your inner And you'll. Up Ryan up you're not. smick surely joke acclimation because actually one you need much. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It does but. I I will say that. When you're doing. I says feels like affirmations. That you're that you're describing and you're saying you know this is great for you know every day on being dispersed in. But. Then life happens. Life is all around you. The bills are pressing. Things are going slower than you thought they would be in your business. How do you deal with? Life and reality when those things are pressing. You really have this faith in us that you're trying to you try to. Take away that. Salvatore. Life size to be the saboteur in of itself how do you? How do you respond to that? Well, the we will. Find Tricky ways to get out of being as spokes Louis We. Be. Like some people say it's my mom it's my boss on. The world it's the university covid nineteen. An Orleans away oppose that they all of this of the. However the most important lesson. In you'll success you and the conversation, the station that you'll have with yourself about you see, it affects the results you deliver. Actually everything. So he doesn't have that right. You don't have a choice now that's not to say that. Difficult every day. But you. Get the balance in your own head rights to the you're not listening to the you might as well, just stay in bed nothing difference. And you want to use cheese day and honestly. That is like it is in the states. Every day I just say. What's the point? What's any? Here it's not great in the states I can tell you right now. Slow. I mean what I was in the states I did a roach rally southern. States America. Constantly on the people I met said the. Loss. Dating like. We have to I mean that's a that's a good example, right? Completely Unintentional. Everything's title so you can listen. I just got as. I'm just one tiny rain assign in hundreds of millions of people. And then. And then hundreds of thousands of people live devoted. Affect change whereas if you say to yourself. I am a stand for myself. I am going to do the most I can't myself on. His Lewis I can. Make a huge difference. But I'm GONNA do that. Then you gonNa vote you'll see do other things. You apply for that job in Sendai Missy you make back. Will. Also being action, you have to be an action. Europe. South. Hockey responsible fuel south and have to lay anything because it's not health. Right. I'm glad you just. I'm glad you said that because. I think a lot of people talk talk talk the talk. FAMOUS PHRASE TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY Walk. Right there's no action. So there's a there's a incongruency there where you're talking which not doing not doing any action. So it kind of it kind of nullifies your affirmation that you do every day you have to have some kind of action or task. To follow up with that. So legend that you mentioned action there I do WanNa get to. Your point where We we've been talking about ourselves trying to sabotage out of the way, but how important is it to have people around you to help you during his journey I, know I talk about that he would when my audience that you cannot do this alone can you speak to you know how important is to have the right people around you on your journey? Yeah it's IT'S A as. You know it's not a story that we tell US outs a game. So I know that everyone wants it to be about something else in the end if I say to myself, I don't need anyone. I can do it on my head right I'm saying that on saying. I. Can Do You know whatever right you offer help. I'm disappointed. Let down. So in love. And by the way, I built this fall all on my ad. So Sudden GonNa Start Off, you should support and guidance advice now off the twenty. All that voice is the voice I'm sorry. Of Your Salad set it's keeping you stopping the way you are understandable. But when we live out, of Boston, united off status last mistakes all. Back it's. Just ripostes for so the game I was not what I asked you today is look at the most successful people Yuna. You'll circle in your profession, your family. By those people and look. At how else can today up? They will be afraid toss up or other people do chats, support and guidance. Didn't want cow I. think a lot of the. Don't ask because. We didn't like being at school. We didn't like the coal. We didn't like working for other people and so finally get set up alright businesses and the loss we WANNA do say goodbye. So support will happen and yet only with guidance and support health and experts. Other people doing the stuff that we? Get. Bogged Down with the week actually fiance do what we're. Early. With oil about happening, can we have our success and old time for me Brian? I sold my company? And I knew this lumping you I've had wonderful. Athlete. So I, this might be the time they get some exit out. And, I was Kit and. She was she was considerably older than me very different from me in every imaginable way man. But she she was an extra in selling copies can. So she looked up you're gonNA, have to pay any percentage was like by the percents And I. said. Well, what would you suggest I do in this next teaching the. Coming up with the dental by. The advice she gave him so good and I knew that I would never have done what she said. That she told me. All I listen to this woman because she has done this before and boy am I glad that I did at the end of. Hundreds of thousands of dollars from the sad and yet island if so my company was. In a certain we need experts help us alone and if you if you meet anybody used it on your road full. Or even just follow the route of the your challenge on and that further down the road than you. I highly recommend that you listen to their advice Nikki have to. Hatred because let's say you so much money in making the stakes that you can avoid. Yeah. I like that. Like that so I have like one last question for you. Can the we're up against the here I appreciate everything you've done so far. I wish been going to further I actually have. Two questions actually if you don't mind. Little Bit. Just just just a general question about. How can we really grow? Grow a business just from just on your experience of people who are just starting out. How do you approach it as far as? You had this idea is you're building it. But you need you need to grow you need you need to get good promotion something to scale it or not just a scale just to get known. How do you approach that and in in your experience suits people can't you have enough. People. Knocking on your door. To sustain yourself. Obviously. In a cup lawsuit and stand out with my aunts these sessions in luggage out module covers. One of the self respects I think that's really important things and. They come. With full that because if you. Develop these alumni, sir bustle as a human being if you have an idea. that. You buy than, you would watch the you. That you would use it. As unity. Trust that that will be a million people like you. Feel like well I you know I would love A. Grooming settled along hatch allowance. But we've been I, would? But I'm this league who else at grooming, sell off long hours I, making it up by. The truth is if you human being was something related to something read something something. That will be millions of people just like you said truckstop judge that and the second thing is. maybe even comes full that do something provide something deliver something that you are an expert in because you off. Say you're writing annul. Just, write about what you know because. Point you writing about experienced that you haven't had? It and exactly the stayed with the business. We Michael Business. I started up making offering TV shows by everything everywhere. McCain being I love watching all TV shows I can make the TV shows very interesting. I'm glad you said that that's What I? Because, of course, I could make them. Quite good but no one will buy them is in any business. The most important thing is trust the the consumer, the client, the by whether they out needs to trust you and early trust you. If they believe that you are an expert in whatever it is you're offering. So, you know whole foods is brand you wouldn't get out your. Whole foods is that's what they do. Discovery knows great natural history revived. You wouldn't get them for fashion shows because I thought what they said. Would I I discovered a Best people would buy from. Me was TV shows by the edges of society because that's where I'm living dot com but in terms of the. Areas. Mayakoba the. Other young gay Jewish man living in a black area of London and will people will be a little bit like he died people in the Dallas area exploring edges of society seventy may ask. The Music British she be the first Asian out. Certain British TV first gay dating children's TV and we didn't know that the world wants At nine. But actually those edges became a little. That's why we did well but we did while not because we love that slop of because we look delivering programs came from work. and. If you. Possibly you and you trust your commodity. Can Do. That man I love it I. Love It. You might have already this question I'm going to show. Say it anyway because of all of my guests. They, they're here listening to you. They like what you're saying I love your answers. They love your story. And they want to they want to do what you do. Right so. Can you give them a few a few tips or just words of wisdom on how? To be in a dougherty. In this space that you're in. I would say. Tickets up juicers. Okay. I noticed very few words that kind of big ones. will hit for a really apply. If you lived till. Eighty two thousand months. Yet it's a really short time so. Do. You. Have a huckabee that's the studio Bass Denver could be that they ought to seriously because in the end. The biggest regrets you this unit being. On Dine Day is I wish I had fun I wish I can acted Moldova People View I. Love. I wish I spent. So one of the office. So you can try and do that and build a business and pay the bills. You're not think there's a whole new idea what success looks like postcode at it's just the. Safe the healthy. Being saying. And being sold them. That's what's That amazing man that's incredible. I so glad to hear that you got. You got you on this show fleas tell us less than when it actually is just tell us where they can connect with you after the show. You can. Late in all ready Blumenfeld Congress. Wi Fi via. The or just go to buy Tallahassee Duck. Be It. Ally ty vitality dockery, and any of those are great ways to connect with me. I have a wheeled like exercise on my website where you can find out how way of ballots now Wonderful. Future. Self digitalization where you can go beat yourself in the future. So would see that I love it. Mitch's off in the future that sounds awesome. Stuff man. Incredible. Stuff. On so glad you got we got connected. In right away actually. So I'm just glad you're here. You're like five hours ahead of me I believe. From me yes. To get on. Silence there you go. The go in the last stop for me just go ahead in from here go to your door dot com on the last two weeks of our digital product giveaway. for the for the podcast launch just jumping and win and giving you one prize each week we're in the last two weeks. Hey, you might win something you might win something then stay on we're GONNA. Continue to help you build your dirty platform and be you know maybe maybe one of guy. Mr. Romy who was on my show today still be a great success if you do that I would I would think so. Sticks Down Your journey staying journey on your in instead you're saying your path for being. The authority in your in your space. You are the authority. You are the project we WANNA, put authority to your name so you can sell more which agreed at. And be like below grammy who was on the show who's done great things for for certain that many people still wants to serve you as well. Any last words at all for for the audience today remmy. H Bryant as. You everyone else. Online. Awesome awesome. I appreciate it and has rep for this episode of the Thirty Project Busey on the next one. Thank you. You bless take care now. and. That's a rapper, this episode of the Authority Project. Thanks so much for tuning in, and if you like what you heard, we want to hear from you subscribe rate and give an honest review share until your friends. So they can hear to an even more authority building tactics be shared a sign up at the authority letter, Dot Com, get free weekly content, and ongoing digital product giveaways to help you on your entrepreneurial journey. We certainly hope you got a key takeaway or maybe an Aha moment from today's broadcast just remember it's your authority, build it, share it, and they will come until next time.

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#90 Dean Graziosi on The Secret Habits of the Ultra Successful

Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu

48:53 min | 3 years ago

#90 Dean Graziosi on The Secret Habits of the Ultra Successful

"Everyone. Thanks for tuning into this episode. Before we get started, though we wanted to quickly share some exciting information from our sponsors. We only pick people that we think are awesome to bring onto this podcast. Please support these guys. This episode of impact eerie is brought to you by none other than the incredible skill share you guys know me. I am totally obsessed with learning. Learning is the thing that takes hopelessly average to being able to do something extraordinary your life and still shares online learning platform over eat thousand classes and business marketing entrepreneurship, technology and more. I'm telling you can take them much anything productivity, time management, social media strategy, Google analytic the list goes on and on. 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So go sign up right now, skill shared dot com. Slash impact again, build a skill share dot com. Slash impact starting two months now and true become legendary skill, share dot com slash impact. Everybody. This show is brought to you by our friends at butcher box. You know that Lisa and I are totally psychotic about what we eat. We are away concerned about whether something is. Gaspard, whether it has ever had antibiotics or any of that stuff. And that is why we're way amped on Butch box and use it everyday in our own lives because they deliver one hundred percent grass-fed and brass finished. That's the key part beef free range, organic chicken and heritage bread pork directly to your door on a monthly basis. All of their products are humanely raised a never ever given antibiotics or hormones. This has been something that has been really effective for research. It's the kind of meat that she can eat, and that's why I trust these guys because we're using them, and that is the key that that is so big for us as we've tried it. We know that this stuff actually works on somebody that has insanely sensitive digestion. So for all of you listeners because this has been working so well does partnership. They've got a new offer for us. Now it's now twenty dollars off plus free bake in for all impacting listeners. Just go to butcher, box dot com. Use the code impact. That's. I m p a c t at butcher, box dot com. Go right now and try it out. This very much has my stamp of approval, and the boxes will come with at least nine to eleven pounds of meat, which is good for twenty four individual servings and their five different box types of choose from. You can get all beef beef and chicken beef and pork. The mixed box and the custom box, which is what I'm all about. And it lets you choose your own cuts by taking out the middleman and buying direct from collective of ranches. These guys are able to get the cost down as a big deal, especially when you think about the fact that they offer free shipping to forty eight, continuous United States, and the price is just drummer, please one hundred and twenty nine dollars a month. And again, that's only six bucks a meal. So for six bucks a meal, you can get the highest quality, tasty. As the date is long, I'm telling you guys and stuff is good. So go try it right now. There's no commitment you can cancel easily at anytime emphasize easily because. As he can make it, a pain becomes a nightmare. These guys not trying to trap you, the stuff is good. They wanna make sure you can get in and try it. So head to your box dot com. Right now, sign up, twenty bucks off plus three guys joint, be legendary. Everybody welcome to impact the our goal this show and company is to introduce you to the people and ideas that will help you actually execute on your dreams. All right. Today's guests is a ridiculously successful. Real estate entrepreneur who took himself from childhood full of crippling poverty to building a Mehta, multimillion dollar empire. He got his first taste of success while he was still a teenager despite the fact that he had a learning disability didn't go to college or come from money. Instead, he started by chopping wood, rebuilding cars and knocking on thousands of doors, literally looking for homes to by by his own estimation, he isn't smarter than the average person, but he does have far better habits haven't set of allowed him to write five books become a multi time. New York Times bestselling author dominate the success business in real estate book sales charts for years and years selling well over a million copies of his books his in. Sane, work, ethic, authenticity, awe-inspiring amount of enthusiasm have not only helped him succeed in business, but they've also helped him create one of the most successful direct selling TV programs of all time. It was so successful in fact that it's generated hundreds of millions in sales and has been airing on television every day continuously for seventeen years through his amazing web content. He's also reaching millions of people online and his live events series of self to stab him as one of the foremost success coaches and real estate educators in the world. So please help me in welcoming the dedicated philanthropist who has helped feed and house. Countless people who are struggling the best selling author of millionaire success habits, dean, Graciosa. Thank you. Thank you. That guy sounded awesome. I can't wait for you to. Also, man, I wanna know like it is crazy to me growing up living in a trailer park living in a bathroom with your dad for a year. It's pretty crazy. How do you go from that while still in your teens to beginning a really in just incredible entrepeneurship journey. It's so funny even when I was sitting in the green room, waiting reading your impact theory, reading your values. It's those foundational things that got me here. I just didn't know what at that time. So if I look back at that time, I did leave in a bathroom with my dad for your straight because he had I say that quick on TV and people like, what do you mean? He lived in a bathroom and we had a house with no heat. There was no walls in it. So the bathroom was enclosed enough where we can plug in electric heater. So we drag a bed in there at night, plug in electric heater, and we lived in that bathroom for almost a year. But if I look back then my parents got married and divorced a lot, which a lot of people go through. They didn't have any money victim from places which other people go through. But I remember wanting to take care of my mom and my driver at fifteen. Now that I look back at thirteen even probably twelve with some is what my mom not to work so hard. And if I looked those things anchored me through life, like if you're running away from pain that your driver grey to use it actually feel the pain more don't ignore and live a life of of status quo or even a life of struggle because of that, in fact, let the pain sink in and let it be your driver. And then once you get a pass. Those and other things kicking that can be your motivator, which I hope we get the talk about today. But I think the main driver was taking care of my mom and I realized that at a young age I watched how much my father struggled, and he worked hard. My father was lazy, got up at six. He was busted his knuckles everyday on cars and working really hard at work too late. And he was frustrated. I was like, wow, he works hard. So that whole thing of go to school work hard has nothing to do with success. There's no correlation. I live in Phoenix honored ten degrees. I drive by those guys up on the roof, putting a black tar roof on. They've been there all day. It's five o'clock tonight. They're physically working harder than me. I think I recognize that of young age. My dad was kind of like running on a treadmill, and there were certain people in my town that just seemed happier more successful and they, they just did things just a little bit different than the norm, and it made a made an impact. So talk to me about the time that your dad saw a guy mowing your lawn for you. That was that that really. Showed the dichotomy between the the new way that you were trying to them, and then the old way that you've been brought up to think the different results. Each path really great question. So I was probably nineteen or twenty years old. And by then I had already, I was working in a collision shop at by wrecked cars, fix them and sell them. And I had my first apartment house by then I bought an old rundown house. I got it for no money down and I built. I built nine apartments in it, and I build one apartment and I live in it while I remodeled it. So I've worked on cars during the day at night. I'd work on this first department. I'd get it done and then soon as it was done and look nice rent it and I moved into the crappy one and rebuilt and I got all nine done, and I realized at a young age that at that time I was starting my real estate career, and by the time it was all rented. It was doing really well. It was cash flowing really well. My dad always working hard and born during the depression was always like, don't borrow money if you could do it yourself, don't dare hire anybody else. And I knew it was fundamentally flawed. Because it wasn't working for him. So I used to spend all day Saturdays on this apartment housing on how to monster lawn. I'd we'd wack all day and mow the lawn and one day just hit me. I said, what my dad thinks is wrong. Like doing this during this time, the seven hours of mowing I could pay the neighbor fifty bucks to do it, and I can go fixed one more car or find another piece of real estate or flip a car and sell it for a profit, and I can make maybe a couple of grand today. My our y would be monstrous. So the first time litter, the first week, the kids moan my lawn. My dad pulls in the driveway and he sees and he gets out and he goes, you're going to pay someone a mole, your lawn, this, you got bigger than your britches this zip for you. And I remember just sitting there and I hated my dad could become frontier sometime, and he got so mad at me like furiously mad. He got in his car and it was a gravel driveway, hit the guests so hard. It sprayed rocks all over my car, like dented the whole side of my car, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, and he left pissed and I remember just sitting it was really a moment in my life and I'm like, wow, his beliefs are so strong. And if you could. Do it yourself, you should do it that it's compromised him and having the ability to have more freedom have more join. I realized that that moment actually it didn't make me want to fire the kid that was more my long at anchored in the fact that, wow, this is what I need to do more of it. I think I've been on a journey. I still you probably say, well, I still on a quarterly basis. I still look through everything I do, and you know, it's like an onion, keep peeling away the onion of what you shouldn't do. And I still look like, what can I have an r. y. on what can I make several thousand dollars an hour or whatever the number is in pay someone to do it. So that was that was a big tipping point in my life because I started realizing that I didn't. I didn't have to do things that I could get a better ROI on and then it it evolved even more so into stop doing things I sucked at because the world and even school teaches, you teaches us in so many ways to to to, you know, work on our weaknesses to get stronger. And I think that's a huge flaw. I think we just get great at. We're good at. We only need to be good at one or two things. And we can make an impact on the world. How do people find those things. Well, you know, I've been doing it for so long time that I think the best way's as as archaic as this might sound is I literally will jot down. I'll tell people whether I'm in a high end mastermind where people paid one hundred grand being room, or they paid ninety bucks in Burell cells. Same people is take journal it in your phone in the notes or do it on in your journal Rana pad and write down the stuff you do on a daily basis hour by hour and then go through it and literally look the stuff as simple as a sounds look at the stuff and say is everything unless list drive me towards being a better version of myself or more wealth. But that's what you want are being a better. Dad is what I obsess on are being a family man or being more conscious being more spiritual. Like does it help God the universe or bigger version of me? And if it doesn't, should it really be something that's on my list? And if it has to be done, can someone else do it? Can I delegate it? Can I automate it or can I just eliminate it? And I literally do that practice. At least once a quarter for the last ten years because we must because sometimes we, we evolve, we change and things that used the light us up or used to be important aren't anymore. And then the other thing too is there's a balance between, you know, just making money or furthering your business and also knowing internally what your definition of successes. You know, there might be something that makes you a lot of money, but it robs your soul. So there's that balance, and I think that doesn't happen. Oh, that doesn't happen in your twenties and maybe not in your thirties, at least for me, I was just fighting to be successful in my twenties and thirties, but at this phase I wish someone would have grabbed me at twenty five and said, you're gonna make all the money you want. You'll have all the success. You want. Make sure your souls aligned with that money. And every time I don't know about you every time I lined my values, my soul, my purpose, whatever it is you want to call it with my businesses and my prophets. They always sore without having to obsess on on on the numbers. What you just said is so important and is is like driving force of my life like you. I chase money first and foremost, that was it. I wanted to get rich period. Yeah. When people when people hear their story of I had to subpoena to change the world that twenty two, I wasn't me. I just wanted to be rich because I hated being poor. I wanna take care of my mom, you I could. Could lie. So anyway, I mean, interrupt I get it and not at all. And I really hope people are hearing what you're saying because it's like everything that I say beyond like a line, the way that you generate your wealth with what you love doing is like trappings to try to point you back at that because one you'll be far more extraordinary because you care enough about invested time to get great to. It's the thing that is going to keep you going when it gets really hard is going to be that you believe in what you're doing, you're passionate about. It gives you more energy than it takes, and if you don't have that you're in real trouble. Now say that some of that though, is a bit advanced class. It's getting into like you're talking about optimizing which is so critical unless you're so early in your development like your dad peon gravel. So what I want to know is. You understand the psychology of people in their story and how they get trapped really well talked about how people can get control of that story. Talk about monitoring your thoughts where of what you're thinking being aware of the story you're telling yourself, you're right, and what stands between us and where we wanna go. Is never what we think it is. It's not the economy. It's not the president. It's not that somebody already dominated the health food industry or dominated Facebook advertising dominated TV advertising, or there's no room left. It's never that. It's always the story. We tell ourselves on why we can't achieve that. And and if I wanted to boil it down, I would just say, what is your biggest? Why? What's your biggest goal that you would love if it was a year from now? And we were sitting here, you're watching this and it was a year later, and it was the best year of your life. What would be the biggest thing that would have changed in your life from money, income, family, love, intimacy, being a better dad, mom, whatever, whatever that is. If you say to yourself, I would love that goal. Like I love to have my company doing a million dollars a year net profit, so it could have freedom for my family then just say, but and whatever that, but is is usually your story. It's like I would love my company be doing a million dollars yet, but I live in a smaller town and there's just not enough people do it or the internet, so saturated. There's no room to advertise on Facebook anymore because nobody knew brothers on whatever that story is is usually your story, and that's the result you get. And that story is the thing. The thing standing between you and your next level and and I know people are watching right now the and that's nice. You guys got money now. So it's easy. I don't have any money. I don't have a partner. I don't have any business experience. This economy is not right for what we do, and and you know where there's where there's that old saying where there's a will. There's a way if that if your story is that that's what you'll continue to get. So what I would say is if I was going to boil it down is fine with that story is now to you. You, you might be saying dean, you're saying it's a belief, it's reality, and maybe it's phase three, but reality is nothing more than our perception of a situation. Right? We all know that you've read that in value. Watched it on Tom show. Everybody said it, but maybe it's the first time you actually think about it that that reality you think is holding you back is really just the story. So there's two things I say is go find somebody else with that same story like, oh, look at your, your your evolution, where you were on your couch, no money, right? Go look at Richard Branson's story. Look at Tony Robbins story. Look at John Paul Joyo or all the amazing books everyb- I've read every book in there as a mazing that people that you've got the interview in me, but read all those stories and realize that first of all that story you have is probably lie, right? So if you can find proof like leverage that, it's lie. That's one thing, but then the one that would get me is I'm love aspiration. I love to look and say, look what you did, man. I want to get there if he did it, I can do it, but sometimes you need the pain as well. So what I like to do is I like to think. Take that story and think it's five years from now and think it's ten years now and you're still in the same exact spot you are. Now you're still worried you still have envy, still want more. You desire more. You wanna take care of your family. Want to provide more and think that that story, those two sentences is the thing holding you back. Do you really want to give that story that much power and then think it's ten years from now and that story is still done and all of a sudden it like for me, I think, am I going to let that story stop me. I brought my son with me to my stop from giving him the opportunities that I didn't. I'm not raising two children. I'm not raising entitled kids. I wanna give massive opportunity. I don't want to leave him a trust fund. I'm gonna leave him massive opportunity and train them. I'm not going to let any story get in the way of me being that debt. And if a story pops up his, I can't make baseball this week because of this. I'll change a damn story a fistfight with that story and I'll look at the pain. I'll have if I keep that story. So I love the aspirated part of this story will stop me from my new. But also like, are you gonna let that story screw around for the next five, ten fifteen years? I mean, we're, we're going to be ninety lane in bed looking up like before we know it and you want to think I squeezed all I could out of life or did I let just beliefs that other people gave me hold me back now. Let's say that they do that. They're looking back. They understand what they would have to chain. Yep, to really get there at a future point thinking, okay, this is my life. They look back to understand what they have to do to actually make that come true. They identified limiting belief. Yeah, they get the, but and then they okay, that cool. I got it. I'm owning that story unintentionally. Now how do they start writing a new story without the they're lying to themselves. So in tenth grade, I decided I wasn't going to college, wasn't that smart had dyslexia. Family didn't have money, and none of my family went to college. I just wanted out of school. So my dad owned a collision shop. It was called Paul Graciosa auto body and he never made more than thirty grand a year. I told you worked really hard, but not profitable just worked hard. So my dad said, if you're not gonna go to college, I'll make you a twenty five percent partner in the collision shop and eleventh grade if you can get out by eleven o'clock. So eleven o'clock. I start eleventh. And twelfth grade, I took like ceramic, Jim and. And an English and I was out I was at the collision shop. So in eleventh grade in this little town, I grew up of eight thousand people little town called Marburg, New York, the collision shop sign. He switched it and it became Paul and dean auto body. And unlike that was huge for me and I worked, I worked like my dad did I hustle that went there at eleven o'clock at worked every night, and my dad was like, hey, our businesses doing better because you I was better with the clients. I was better. I brought more people in hustled, so now all my friends are going off to college or going into what they do, you're not going to causing. I got this Clinton shop like I felt like a little sense of pride like I was making movement. And by then I was given my mom, some money, giving my grandmother, some money and and had this evolution. I felt good. So about two years out of high school, my dad goes through his fourth divorce and hits them really hard and hit him so hard that he checked out and he said, hey, I'm not going back to the collision shop. I'm not paying the rent. It's done. And I was like at that phase of my life, Tom, I felt I was embarrassed more than anything like, I remember that point because I was like, I'm not going to college. I own Poland, dean auto body with my dad, and it was like in my head, not realizing I'm twenty nothing. I'm like life's over. I have no money in the Bank life is just screwed. And I started telling myself that story and I lost the spark I'd had since I was about twelve since twelve. I'm like, I'm not the smart, but I'm going to do this. I'm going to do and I lost it. And I'm going to friends like, hey, if you dad or anybody know, needs car fix. I'm doing out of my garage and I know my friends like, and then all of a sudden, so this is what I'll share with you. Maybe you've had a story worse than that, or maybe a story not as bad as that, but I remember being in there and Saint myself, like, how am I doing? Tell him my self this crap. Like if I feel this way, this would be my dad and I remembered that moment. I changed his story and I started thinking to myself and it didn't happen overnight. So this is where I want to encourage you when you. The band story find a way to just reverse the whole thing. I'm like, no, no, no. Because I don't have a college degree. I'm gonna fight and I'm gonna do this because I was always small Mundy's because I have no money going to do is because my friends think I can't. I'm going to do this at all of a sudden I started changing his story not overnight, but over weeks it became my empowering story. I wasn't looking at a deficit. I'm like, screw you guys. You think I'm not going to do this because I don't have what you have. I want to show I'm gonna blow right past you whether that's a good thought or not at the time. It served me. That's not how I look at things now. But at the time it served me some of it was and I was able to reverse that story. And that story got me through just like what got you from going couch, getting change to where you've you've created is unbelievable the impact you've made on the world. But if we had the wrong story, if we had the wrong beliefs were screwed before we start, I'm glad that we went down this road because if one person watching today just says, screw this whole story and you spent the time. Make that an empowering story. Then I think the game changes forever. Do you have people that ask you like, hey, I'm rewriting my story, but it doesn't feel real. What advice you have for them. Rewriting my story and it doesn't feel real. Of course it doesn't feel real because you've been living the old story so long. All changes is all change, freaks people out whether they believe that they like change or not. And I think not only been telling yourself the story so long is when you tell yourself a bad story. We look for things. Did you ever do you ever have something bug you like everybody does and you Google, and you find all the negative stuff like, oh, my God, I got. I got cancer. I have. I have a tumor, right? It's the same thing with with our insides right. When we have a story that's holding back, we find social proof all around us at tells us it's the truth, right? You talk to your aunt who says yet, hey, listen, rich, people get to do those. He's we don't. You just play safe and all of a sudden subconsciously like, oh, maybe that's stories, right? So you have all these years of sometimes years months weeks, whatever it is, you have the story and then you only collect the data that supports the story. So your subconscious can be okay with playing small. What is up in Paktis. Hope you guys are enjoying this episode wanted to give a quick shout out to our sponsors, and then we'll get right back to it. Remember our sponsors are all hand chosen. We love these guys and think that they have something incredibly valuable to offer. So be sure to give a listen. A lot of these guys are doing special offers just for you. What is up in Paktis. This episode is brought to you by athl-. Green's you guys know huge believer that you should eat whole foods whenever possible for a healthy lifestyle and diet. But sometimes you need another great option to get your daily nutrition during a busy week. Nobody knows that better than I and that's where athletic green comes in and kick some serious ass athletic greens is one of the best all in one whole food supplements out there. He's literally take real whole foods, ranked it up. 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They have a button on their, the actually let you speed up the playback of the books, which for me was exactly being jacked into the matrix. It also freed me up to read what I called transitional moment. So whether it's in the gym, getting in the shower, driving whatever the case may be, I was no longer tethered to a physical book. So you guys know, I read virtually every book that I read on audible and the huge lever. This is the most Antic relationship ever. And if you want to take advantage of this, just the audible dot com forward slash impact and Barack. How's the unmatched election of audio programs? Download free trial and start listening. It is that easy go to audible dot com slash impact or text impact to five hundred five hundred to get started to day. All right, guys, enjoy learning with audible and be legendary. What I love in in your real life story is that it wasn't like you were saying, oh, this Pitney, I look up the stars align. It was okay. You have the trouble with your dad and his most recent divorce. Looks like everything's collapsing. You get back. It's going in the right direction. We're winning again this all and then you make a deal to sell your car flipping business. Yeah. And then that goes to hell. And in that moment, the story comes rushing back of maybe everybody does, right. Maybe I wasn't smart enough -solutely and so that in fact, you just posted this on your Instagram about how so brilliant. It was the life of an entrepreneur, and it showed this like I'm winning everything. I screwed up. Shit. I really, I'm winning again. Yeah, this week and it just like this back and forth back and forth. How did you when you thought, oh, I've overcome this. I've got the empowering story and then it all falls apart again, villain as you call it like start speaking up. How did you deal with it? The second time around was easier was harder. I think it was harder. It's harder because it was bigger because so the story just say, said, I, I, I ended up after that. I worked in that little garage. I was working on one car. My story change. I started getting power, two cards, three cards. I went to the the woman who owned the collision shop. My dad had rented for her MRs Mary lopresti. She was a great old lady elderly lady, and we became friends and she sold me the collision shop with no money down. So I bought the collision shot. My dad lost. I named it dean collision center. Take the Paul off. I was mad at my dad, so I am the dean collision center. I bought it and I started and I got enterprise rent a car count. I got Hertz rent a car count. We've been from this rinky Dink collision shop to a successful collision shop. Start buying a flip and more houses, and then in the late. Nineties. I wanted to teach people how I made money with cars. I used to wholesale cars if you ever went and traded in a car and they give you a low price, I'd run ads in the classified said, hey, if you're getting low offer, call me, I'll sell your car for you. And then I match buyers and sellers and make money. So I created a course called motive millions. And I'd watch Tony Robbins infomercials and I had no idea what I was doing. I put all the money. I had together hit credit cards, and I felt my first infomercial nineteen ninety nine, and I sold the course called motor millions and went on TV and was literally running motor millions of my education business out of the collision shop like I had three phones on the desk and that's the that's the motor millions phone and and we ramped up and I had no idea what I was doing knocked on a lot of doors and finally rolled out on TV and probably got to a ten million dollar your company, the trials and error of figuring it out right lots of mistakes because I had no idea what it was doing. And I was about three years into that, and I wanted to teach everybody real estate, and I had somebody come in an offer to buy motor million. And they, they took the company and came in like, hey, you're running like mom and pop. We're gonna turn it into a company and they blew the company up. I mean, like nine months, like as fast as you could blow a company up, they blew it up. And I remember when they're making all these changes. I remember thinking, well, I'm not that smart. These guys are smarter than me, so they're probably doing it right, even though it didn't feel right. It's a long story short, the company went belly up, but my name was attached to it and they didn't pay refunds and people who bought my courses and stuff. So I went to court and literally took back the debt, and then I over the next two years, I paid off one hundred percent of the people who had bought even though they bought through the company bought it, my bills were ridiculous, and all of a sudden cash flow shut off immediately. And I'm fighting to take back dead company like it was like I gave them a thoroughbred that was ready to grow and they broke its legs and gave it back to me. And I had a fight and pay to take it back then paid off, and I thought I was going to lose it. And and those limiting beliefs at a different level came back and said, see, you didn't go to college. You didn't study enough. You weren't smart enough to own. Ten million dollars a year company. You weren't smart enough to negotiate, right. What do you think you're doing? Get this paid off. Go back literally was saying, go back tomorrow. Go back to just real estate car business. You can make yourself three hundred grand a year. Like literally those beliefs came in all over again and I would. I would bet to say, what did it for me then was two things is I started thinking back of all the things that I went through and it was just as painful when I was broke getting my first deal done, broke living in a bathroom, broke in that garage, go into the collision shop, and I realized that it doesn't matter how many zeros are at the end or how big your is. The pain is still there. And if you have the ability to get through a death, get you a hard time get through something horrible. If you have the same ability and you'd probably agree this when your company's got you know, three zeros or nine zero or ten zeroes. It does like the stress and the worry is almost the same. If you look back, it's just you're just handling bigger problems. And I think I think. I mean, you want upgrade your life upgrade your problems, right? But but I think that's what got me through. As I literally looked back and said, well, I thought I was dead. Then I wasn't. I thought I wasn't going to make it there. I did, and I started this mantra. If I can get through this shit, I can get through anything. And I remember I just walk and I would say it off. I get through this. I can give you anything. This is my time. This is my purpose. This is my calling. I went from the worst time in my life to be in being empowered and motivated and energy. Just I took my team with me. They felt the energy, they felt the motivation, and we just blew right through to another level. It's really incredible. You have this concept of protect your confidence. I've never heard anybody say it like that before. Why is that so important? Because I think I mean in all the big decisions you've had to make along your way. Have you ever made a good decision when your confidence was down once like, can you say, I walked in my head was down your physiology change a little nervous like you just don't make good decisions when your confidence is down and and I don't think it's like either confident or not confident. I think it's like a confidence is one hundred percent for conferences, ninety five percent. We play smaller. I know with me like big opportunities. If I'm not in that like space, I'm like, guys, let's just let's hold. Let's not. I won't make smart decisions. So I think I think we have to do everything in our power to protect our confidence so that that theory of protecting your confidence has been. There's been a major thing in my head always. In fact, I have, we all have our own morning routines, not maybe not everybody, but I've a morning routine that I have to do to get me to play. I look at it as play offense for the day, not play defense with lower confidence was quick. Tried a lot of variations. And for me, it's if I immediately when I wake up, I can't check my phone. In fact, I'd put it on airplane mode and I move it. I got that from area Huffington whose amazing she's like, is your phone still by your bed, airplane mode on the other side of the room. You know. So that and then I just know so many people roll over and grab their phone. And to me, that's like Russian roulette. You put a bullet in the gun and you spin it and it's like, what? If the Email says the deal didn't happen? Numbers are down. Life's not working out like an immediately for me. It's like you open up and, and this little box is going to dictate the first couple of hours or maybe the whole day by what you see. So I've just, I just won't look at my phone when I first wake up, so, but when I first opened my eyes, this is all and I like doing things quick for me because I want to get to the gym because the only time of day I'll go, if I try to wait to the tune, it doesn't work for me. So soon as I wake up, I m mmediately try to think of something. I'm grateful for which everybody knows that and thinks about it. But I've, I play this game myself on how far can lower the bar. Meaning I try to do a gratitude journal about three years ago. And after about five weeks, I ran out of stuff to say, like I already wrote my kids and this and life. Like what I put in here, I and then I was like, wow, one hundred and fifty thousand people die. Every single day in Google. That's the number. It's like some days a week. I'm just like, I'm here. Awesome. And I, I feel that silly little thing like I'm here or or like, oh my God, the sheets feels soften. They've ever felt and a little think to myself, these sheets are really good. Like a third of the world sleeps on the on a dirt floor, and I have sheets in an amazing bed and look at the view I have. And that's enough just because the way I know is I'm just just tweeted my brain enough to be in a grateful place. It doesn't have to be this for me, and you guys might have better practices. I'm not talking about a half hour gratitude, meditation. I just need one little thing or I pick up a book if I'm reading one of the books that you have on the shelf, I'll pick and I'll just pick three sentences and read something powering and I'll get that state of mind for my brain. And then I think about one win I had the day before because I know as entrepreneurs as somebody searching for success. We never give ourselves credit. We'd never treat a friend the way we treat ourselves. It's like I know I've had days. I've gone till ten o'clock at night and go man, nothing done today. The biggest lie, like we beat ourselves up. We were like these racehorses we wouldn't even treat a racehorse that we owned as bad as we treat ourselves, right? So I wake up and I'll do a quick little gratitude and they'll say, what was one win yesterday that -ccomplish and I'm like, wow, you did do that. Yes. And then I'll think of one win. I want to do that day like what we need a million things Dante. But what's a must today, that would be a great win. And then for me that I immediately go downstairs in my house and I drink, I felt like I fed my my mind and then I want to feed my body. So for me, I've been doing same drink forever. I do apple cider, vinegar lemon MCAT, oil, scuba green powder and mix it up and down that. And then I immediately got to go to the gym. So reading the book, one of the things that I found interesting is you talk about money myths and some of the things that people believe holding them back. What are some of the major money myths that people struggle with? I think I think some of the big ones are a certain group of people. Feel like if you're making too much of it, you're taking it from somebody else. I mean, that's a big. That's a big worry. I think the other thing is that people think. Money doesn't solve problems or money. Make me a better person or money won't make me happy. And I think what, however you want to classify money. But for me, I just know this if that's a driver for you, I don't think we should drive for money. I think we should drive to be a better version of ourselves when money was no longer. A worry for me. I dove into me and I have been ignoring tucking down a lot of crap for a lot of years, and I was surface level. I looked like the guy that had it all going on my business doing good, amazing children company, thriving. I live in the right neighborhood drive the have the right friends. Anything looked great, but it was all masked and when money got out of the way I was able to find dig into me and do my own personal development and my own personal growth and really find the things that I wanted to fix. So I could become a better version because I know if I'm pointing because my sons over there, it doesn't matter what I tell him as a parent. And if your parent. You know what I'm talking about. I could teach him everything. I can give them lessons. We do Sunday meetings. I teach them lessons or he's going to become who I am. Not what I say, and I'm going to lead by example. And I want to be a better version of me and money's allowed that money has not made me. Evil or done things. It's it's allowed me to not worry about that part. So I could focus on me and simultaneously the more focused on me, the more I wanted to take my money and do better for other people. I mean, I heard somebody say once when they said money's evil said you haven't made enough and you haven't given enough away yet to see that it's not. So that kinda shifted for me as like, I just want to. I want to find tune in hone my skills for making more money than I have the ability to help more people because that's the gift I got, right. So I think I know you asked about money miss, I think I think the whole of monies evil or can't help problems or hurting other people by taking it. I just I don't believe in that as long as the by product of you, making money turns you into a better person and allows you to help more people. So if you're somebody that buys into that and you want to go on that journey than to the very title of your book, like what are the habits that you need to cultivate in your life. In order to be able to succeed at the highest level? Yeah, you know what. Everyone of your rules on impact eerie. What I read. I'm not kidding ever since that journey and starting before that mortar millions, I realized that people are searching like, and again, I digress sometimes, but everybody's in a vehicle like your your wealth creation vehicle, whether that's job, you don't like or job you do, like or business you started or business crushing businesses not doing great. You have this vehicle and when this vehicles not working, we're looking on the road of all the other shiny cars. I was like, oh, man, I tried selling stuff on Amazon. That's not working. I'm going to go in the car business, the real estate business. I'm going to go in the speaking business, the the nutrition business, and you're looking for another car to jump in. And I realized people jumped from car to car to car their whole life, looking for satiated, looking for satisfaction, looking to make more money, and I got to see it firsthand Tom because I was in the business of teaching people how to make money with real estate. And when they would call into customer service when they would. Send in for refund, or I'd see him at an event. They never said ever. I tried your real estate stuff sucks. Never. We used to send surveys to listen, go, how come you're not making money yet is the time effort, energy, deans, training sucks. One percent would pick the training sucks. And what I realized over all these years is that and the reason I wrote millionaire success habits is you could literally give someone a business on how to sell twenty dollar bills for five bucks, and they'd screwed up because of their beliefs because of the fear of rejection because the fear of selling because of the fear of marketing because other people told them they couldn't or they feel they need certain criteria. They need initials at the end of their name like they, they need all these things. And at the end of the day, what you wrote your impact theory, you call them beliefs, impact theory, beliefs. It's kind of same beliefs that are in my book, but it's also the same beliefs that are in three quarters of the books that you have. In your shelf now and then credible people you've interviewed. And I just saw that if we can give people if we can go upstream, if you can stop jumping from vehicle to vehicle, the vehicle you're in might be the right vehicle, but you don't have the right habits or the right beliefs or the right rules, whatever you wanna call it, my books habits. So I call them habits, but it's really the foundation for success. So you can overcome the obstacles. You don't let negative people in your life. Steer you in different directions. It doesn't. You know. Even people will ask me about productivity people's, how do you get so much done? How do you run a business and still coach little league in baseball and softball? And he'd do all those things. It's because of just simple success habits, like I just wrote something on this recently. I said you have to treat your decisions for productivity like binary thinking, which is exit, does black black or white, yes or no? Is this moving toward a better version of myself a wealthier version, a happier version, or is it not successful people make top? This doesn't serve that better version me. I'm not doing it right. So there's all these little rules. And I think I think, and I know this even when I met with Branson, I think people meet someone who's successful people meet you and they're like, okay, what is it like? Like there's this little like, okay, nobody's looking. On that lights up and like here it is right, and it's not the big thing. Like even when I was sailing, Brandon, I'm waiting like I wanted to say to them. So what is it? You know, but it's not what I get done. Talking them for three hours. He's got the same habits that you have the same rules that you have written down on that plaque. That's amazing. In my opinion, never the big things. It's all the little changes you can make in your life and none of them are dramatic at each level. It's like just following these little principles that have worked for so many years and you start put them in your life and all of a sudden decision start going easier. The money starts, the change. The business starts to do good. The thoughts in your head start to project a bigger future rather than than the negative. I think it's the, I think it's the build up of the habits or beliefs. Makes all the sense in the world. Right before I ask my final question, where can these guys find you online? A lot of place someone's social media. We just started putting effort. I'm Instagram and it's starting to explode. We, I've been the infomercial guy for so long. I just ignored social media, which. Silly last four months. We put effort on Instagram. We've already grown over one hundred thousand people organically growing like crazy. So if I'm in Instagram, you can get my book, deans, free book. We we offer the book. If people cover shipping and handling, we met him the the hardcover we just passed three hundred twenty thousand books on millionaire success have it's so were yes. So we're cranking books on fire, it's going viral. And if you look on Instagram, there's hundreds and hundreds of pictures. We never asked one person take a picture, so it's the message has resonated. So I'm really excited about that. That's incredible. Man. You have sold a lot of books. Yeah, it's pretty nuts. All right. So my final question, what is the impact that you want to have on the world. You know, great question. I'll make. I won't go too long, long winded. It would have been a different answer for every every phase of my life. That's interesting for sure. Would have been a different one might even ten years ago with Ben to leave a legacy for my children, which is amazing. But at this phase my life, I see what an impact impact theories, beliefs, the strategies that are in my book Brennan Bouchard so many other great books like I want to go upstream and I want to give people the tools so they can live a more abundant life. And even though it sounds vast, it's like, I think it can be easier than you think. Like the way I wrote millionaire success habits, I wanted to make it so low that goats can eat. I wanna make even though if you read one hundred books that gave you the same stuff. I was hoping to write in a way where I actually could do that for the first time. So I think more and more of the next ten years where I think you'll see as me trying to find a way to get even the people who like are opposed to personal growth, who think it's to fool. And I'm not going to go to. I'm not going to think all these dogs. I'm a realist. Like those of you watching a realist. I'm getting to you. I want to get you to. I want to convert those that don't think they could be converted so that that would be a great impact of preaching. So much being showed up Dawson. All right, guys, I'm telling you right now when you look at where he started and the mindset that he had to develop to get where he is today and just play that interview back the way that he talks is so relatable being with him before the cameras started rolling. And I'm sure long after the cameras stop rolling. He's exact same person. He is ultra relatable, he is you. And that's the entire thing that he puts out into the world is there's no difference between who he is in who you are. So what he has accomplished is about those habits of success of knowing how to get a hold of his thoughts of being aware of them of taking control, shaping his story into something that's impounding go back and listen to the part where he's talking about his dad and what went down at the car shop and how he then transforms his mindset in order to get out of that. And then again, the next time that he has a problem. Again, it's about addressing the limiting beliefs, their few people who story, I think so. Incredibly embodies exactly what you need to be doing if you want to be successful. This man is the prototype, his absurdly successful hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. It is absolutely an extraordinary tale of a normal guy who did extrordinary things by putting his mind to it, protecting his confidence, going inward, asking himself. Why? Why he's doing what he's doing to find out the real motivation so that he could align his actions to that, make sure that he had the energy to passion in the enthusiasm to carry it through. And that's one thing that he didn't say here today, but is really a hallmark of who he is. It's not about your intelligence, it's not about your education. How does he ask? Are you how much do you love what you're doing and how much can you infect other people with that enthusiasm? So go out figure out what your why is get your mind right show the enthusiasm to the world that you have and you will be shocked at the people that come around you to help you achieve what you want to achieve. All right. If you haven't already be sure to subscribe. And until next time my friends be legendary and take care everybody. Thank you so much for listening. And if this content is delivering value to you, please go to itunes Stitcher rate and review us that helps us build this community, and that is what we're all about right now, buildings community as big as we can to help as many people as we can deliver as much value as possible and you guys rating and reviewing really helps with that. All right, guys. Thank you again so much. And until next time, my friends, you legendary take care.

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440. Does Advertising Actually Work? (Part 1: TV)

Freakonomics

40:26 min | 2 months ago

440. Does Advertising Actually Work? (Part 1: TV)

"Radio sponsored by discover card discover matches all the cash. Back you earn on your credit card at the end of your first year. It's amazing because discover is accepted ninety nine percent of places in the us the take credit cards learn more at discover dot com slash. Yes twenty twenty nielsen. Report limitations apply freakonomics. Radio is sponsored by td ameritrade with td ameritrade. You get everything you need to become a smarter. Investor such as help from knowledgeable professionals customizable tools and investing education designed. Just for you. There are also no hidden fees or trade minimums get smarter with td ameritrade where smart investors get smarter. Have you ever been puzzled by something. That's supposed to be true but you didn't quite believe it and you didn't have the evidence to challenge it but then one day. The evidence appears today is that day. This is what you've been waiting for. Today is the day. The long standing puzzle is finally solved. It's amazing it's a puzzle about something you encounter all the time every day. We're each exposed to hundreds even thousands of advertisements every day the number that's grown exponentially thanks to the internet service in the us. More than two hundred fifty billion dollars. A year is spent on advertising globally more than half a trillion dollars thirty. So it would seem. There's basic question worth asking. Does advertising actually work end from stitcher and productions. This is freakonomics radio. The podcast explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host. Stephen duffner steve levin my economic expanding co author is an economist at the university of chicago. Occasionally he will get a call from a company that wants his help solving a problem exactly he wants got such a call from a big box retailer. I ended up flying to headquarters of this company and sitting down with them. I said okay. So what's the problem. And they said the problem is that we spend almost a billion dollars a year on advertising. And we know whether it works or not. I said okay. What do you know and they put up these powerpoint slides and there were some of the most beautiful powerpoint slides you've ever seen. These slides seem to show the value of the firm's advertising but levitt was skeptical. I had bought a fair amount and fail the number of times academic studies to really understand a causal impact of ads on sales. Because typically there's nothing like a randomized experiment going on so teasing the causal part. The sales that wouldn't have happened absent advertising. It's just really hard problem. The executives told that there was one thing they knew to be true that the tv ads they ran. We're much more effective dollar for dollar than their newspaper ads. They also said they'd been advertising in every big sunday newspaper in the us every week for the past fifteen years. And i said. I suppose you advertise every day of the year on national. Tv as well. Oh no no. We've really only advertised three times a year. Tv that's because tv. Advertising is much more expensive than newspaper advertising. We have a really big push right before father's day and then we advertise a bunch wreck friday right after thanksgiving and then in the lead up to christmas. Of course we're doing an enormous blitz. So of course. There was a correlation between the tv advertising and store sales but it's not necessarily even primarily because of the ad it's because the company knows when the big selling days are and they target the ads around it ll. It did try to analyze the data. The firm gave him but because the company only ran tv ads exactly when customers were already planning to buy a lot of stuff. It was impossible to disentangle. I went back to this company. And i said i'm really sorry to say with the data you have with nothing like randomized experiment. It's just possible that the return on investment could be anywhere from zero to infinity live. It did offer to help. The company run a randomized experiment. Their newspaper advertise would be perfect for that. Since those ads ran everywhere every week they could stop running them in certain markets and measure the effect on sales and they said to be. Are you crazy. We can't turn off the newspaper ads one time. We hired the summer intern in his job was to do. The newspaper inserts for pittsburgh and the guy was so incompetent that he just didn't do it and when the ceo found out he said if you ever do that again you're fired the pittsburgh blackout lasted an entire month. So i said to them well okay but when you looked at the results what happened to the sales in pittsburgh when you were dark for a month and they called me back about a week later and they said you're not going to believe in pittsburgh and we saw no impact on sales when they didn't do any shirts for a month so i said oh my god that amazing okay. So when can we get started started. That is with a wide scale experiment to replicate the pittsburgh accident. They said are you. Crazy was almost if they found out they didn't work. It was far worse for these people than it was not finding out. It didn't work because they had to explain why for the last fifteen years they had been wasting two hundred million dollars a year so they were happy to just live in a world which as long as they were ads in every market every sunday. Life was good. So economists like you were always telling the rest of us that firms are if nothing else profit maximizing animals that they really know how to spend money. It's going to help make more money and to not spend money that's wasted so any economist tells you that firms are profit maximizing is not ever worked with firms that simple model we used whom we teach begin economics. Because it's easy to solve mathematically but the realistic picture is that firms are composed of people and all of the foibles and shortcomings that people exhibit in their everyday life. They bring those to work with them. Now why should any of us care that. A company like was spending so much money on something that was apparently ineffective after all. It helps support all those newspapers and goodness knows they need every ad dollar they can get these days but if you are say a retiree who owns stock in this company well. You can't be very happy about this and if you are a customer who buys stuff from this company. You probably aren't very happy either. Because who do you think ultimately pays for all this advertising. That's right you do. Don't get me wrong. I'm not implying that advertising doesn't work. i'm implying that we don't have a very good idea about how well it works. So let's try to figure out how well advertising does work. Let's start with the most generous assumption. Possible that it's one hundred percent effective when he called me one hundred percent effective with anything. I'd like you to meet keith weed. But companies would not be spending the money. They spend advertising if they didn't first of all believe it worked and certainly could quantify it's measure we'd sits on the board of several companies including w. the world's largest advertising and communication agency and until last year. I was the chief mocking of a of unilever. The second largest advertiser in the world. Even if you're not familiar with unilever per se you're surely familiar with their products every day. Two point five billion people use a unilever product and they'd about one hundred and ninety seven countries they mass market because even good business with brands like dove soap. Lipton tea ben. And jerry's ice cream. And i see you're also the president of something called the advertising association. Yes oh yes. I'm as well yes. I'm presently appetizing station. Which some credibility to be talking to you today. So not much of a spoiler alert here but keith weed is unabashedly pro advertising the fact that coke and dove and ford have been around for decades and the fact that companies like unilever spend billions suggests that maybe advertising does work the fact that some companies have been around a long time and spend a lot of money on advertising may suggest that advertising works but does that constitute proof i asked. We'd what share of advertising dollars currently go to tv. Advertising wants to do is engage with people where they're spending time at a huge difference in countries around the world. So in the us you would find more than half of advertising dollars going on digital. But i took it to another market around the world. It would still find your tvs being very strong so things are changing but tv is still hugely important. In building board mass reach for positions. Can you give an example of a brand product that let's say it's brand new rate now. That tv is a must if yo- going off to a very targeted audience let's say you have a premium wax for surfboards. Going on television. That would be a waste of money because you'll be advertising your premium wax to a whole load of people who aren't at all interested in surfing what digital enables you to do. Of course he's not only go after surfers but go after people who are interested in a premium wax on your surfboard. The suda products. The tv is still very helpful for our d. consumer goods and things things that everyone uses exactly 'cause and soft drinks and foods etc so it's where you're looking for broad engagement. There's a famous old quote that. I'm sure you've heard attributed to john. Wanamaker department store merchant. Who maybe said half the money i spend on. Advertising is wasted. The trouble is. I don't know which half i'm guessing. That's not the kind of message at you as the chief marketing officer of unilever would've wanted your ceo to think about well. I think the time when that rates said there probably a lot more truth to it with the amount of money in advertising the quality of measuring advertising has gone up every single year is that measurement usually done internally or externally in other words. If i see that do i feel oh. That's an audited estimate of efficacy. Or is this the chief marketing officer telling me that. His crew has analysed this and determined that the efficacy is relatively high. Both the things that you can get full panel data and measures that are accepted by the industry. Having said that what every company would like is a level of differentiation which makes them a little bit more competitive and there's been a lot of science being put into that over the years now. One of the things that i spent a lot of time developing was hold air about brands with purpose brands that matter whether that be dove real beauty and challenging the beauty industry or bene- jerry's and the work done around social justice and climate justice and building brand with purpose. We believe gave us a competitive advantage against other brands. So if i were to say to you keith. That a trio of academic researchers in the states did this massive analysis of consumer packaged goods. And they found that. The vast majority of brands over invest in advertising could increase profits by reducing their advertising spending. If i were to say that to you you would then say what. Well i would say that. I'm sure you've got executive group of people because i think everyone loves to have a theory about advertising. We do have exactly that group of people one at least her name is anna tuchman knife. Yeah i hear you. Great tuchman is an associate professor of marketing at northwestern university's kellogg school of management and. I studied the effect of television advertising as well as research questions that lie at the intersection of marketing and public policy. Considering how long advertising has been around you would think we would know pretty much everything about advertising. There is to know how wrong. I i mean. You're exactly right. Advertising has been around for a long time and researchers have been interested in studying the effects of advertising for a long time. There's actually some really nice work on the psychology side of how advertisements work but in terms of linking adds to actual purchases. That's going to require data. When a researcher like anna tuchman talks about using data to answer a question. She doesn't mean the same thing that advertisers mean when they talk about data and she ran into the same measurement problem that steve levitt ran into with the big box chain he worked with. Let's say that we're thinking of like a lotion manufacturer. Okay so this firm may know that demand for lotion just naturally happens to be higher during winter months so this firm they say well that seems like the best time for me to advertise. So what are we going to find. Now we're going to see that. We sell more lotion in the winter. When we also advertise more so yes. There is a correlation between advertising an increased sales but to what degree is the advertising causing the increased sales. Isn't that what you really want to know exactly. So one of the challenges with measuring the effects of advertising is that firms are out there signing their advertising randomly across geographies and across time periods. Since an outside researcher like anna tuchman would have a hard time getting a bunch of firms to sudden. We embrace this kind of experimentation. She thought about another method to measure advertising. What's called a border strategy. The way that advertising is purchased there are about two hundred television markets in the us on these local markets that tend to be centered around large cities in the ad industry. These are known as designated market areas or delays. So what we want to do is think about neighboring television market. As almost like a natural experiment where we get to see to markets that may be quite similar on observables similar on observables. Meaning that people living on one side of the dna border aren't very different from the people on the other side. In terms of social economic and demographic markers because individuals living on the borders are exposed to potentially different levels of advertising that is the two populations are different ads on their tv stations. then we get to see similar. People exposed to different amounts of advertising and then trace out the variation in the purchases. They make over time and how that relates the variation adds that they're exposed to this was the strategy tuchman used in the study last year to investigate the impact of tv advertising for e cigarettes. This was particularly interesting product to choose tv advertising. Traditional cigarettes has been banned since nineteen seventy-one e. Cigarettes were considered at least by some people to be a safer alternative. Although that is a complicated issue. If you wanna learn more about that you can check out our episode number three ninety eight. It's called the truth about the vaping crisis anyway. Tuchman looked at e cigarette advertising data from two thousand and ten two thousand fifteen in more than two hundred border markets across the us. What you find. So i find as we would expect that you. Cigarette advertising is leading to an increase in sales of e cigarettes. We should say e cigarettes still relatively new at the time. We might think that for a variety of reasons. Advertising for new products may have larger effects than advertising for products. Okay that seems pretty clear. But the less clear question was how e cigarette advertising would affect demand for tobacco cigarettes to there's some debate as to whether these e cigarette ads could lead to increase in sales of tobacco cigarettes if maybe people misinterpret the ads to be ads for cigarettes or nicotine products general or if they remind smokers about their desire to consume nicotine and then smokers go out and buy more cigarettes and what i find is the opposite effect that really the substitution between products so we see a decrease in sales of tobacco cigarettes when east greenwich sales increase. So that sounds like an argument in favor of the efficacy of tv advertising. But what's the magnitude. So i carry out a counterfactual analysis which basically is what if we were to implement a ban on isa advertising like some policy. Groups are calling for what would be the impact on sales of tobacco cigarettes. And so i find that approximately one hundred thirty million more packs of cigarettes would have been sold in the us in the absence of e cigarette advertising and that's each year so again that's an argument that advertising does quote work at least to some degree it accomplished is sounds like two goals. Area is sold more e cigarettes and fewer combustible cigarettes right. Yes but what. Can you tell us about the return on investment of that advertising for e cigarettes. How much did it cost. Was it quote worth it so unfortunately in this paper i didn't have information on advertising costs so i am not able to measure the are wise and when presenting the research. I get a lot of questions like well do. These adifax makes sense. Is this within the realm of reason of how large or small we expected. These affects to be so looking for there to be a benchmark to evaluate the efficacy of your analysis. Are you are missing something. Tuchman east cigarette study response to it. Gave her an appetite to go. Find a general benchmark for the effectiveness of tv advertising coming up after the break. You will hear how she did it and what she learned the first. We are working on an episode about asking sensitive questions. And we need your help. Is there a question that you would really like to ask a co worker or friend or family member. But you just can't bring yourself to ask if so use your phone and make a voice memo send it to radio at freakonomics dot com. Maybe we will use your question in our episode. We usually ask. People do include their name and where they're from but in this case. If that'll get you in too much trouble you can leave it out again. Send your voice memo to radio at freakonomics dot com. You are listening to freakonomics radio. I'm steven dubner. And we'll be right back after what i am. 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You need to do even more amazing things in a way that only you can do so whatever you do make it you with windows see how at windows dot com slash ten. That's windows dot com slash the number ten in tuchman who has the marketing and teaches at northwestern university. Her done one empirical study on e cigarette advertising. It suggested that the conventional wisdom about the effectiveness of advertising might be exaggerated men. She learned that. A pair of economists at the university of chicago had been thinking the same thing. Yeah so i started chatting with brad shapiro. Guenter hitch an independently. We had all worked on different projects related to advertising and encountered similar sorts of questions shapiro and hitch had done studies similar to tuck men's on e cigarettes but their topics were respectively antidepressants and frozen entrees. Like lean cuisine and stouffer pizza and this led us to start discussing. Hey it'd be really nice. If we had a good source that we could use as a benchmark for the effectiveness of television advertisements. There was in fact an existing benchmark in the marketing literature based on a series of earlier. Papers yeah some of these papers come back with benchmarks of around like the average addie last to see his point. One five or point to an average ed. Ls city meaning. What exactly an addy last. Two city measures the percent change in quantity sales result from a given percent change in advertising. Let's assume the percent change in. Advertising is one hundred percent in other words. You double your ad spending an ad elasticity of point one five or point two indicates that sales would increase by fifteen or twenty percent which is pretty substantial increase. Which would suggest that advertising spending is quite effective at least that's what the existing benchmark said but when tuchman shapiro and hitch calculated the ad elasticity in their own research. They found a much smaller number. Point zero one. That would mean if you were to increase your ad spending by percent or double your ad spending. This would lead to an increase in sales of one percent. So you're saying that your experience with e cigarettes and your colleagues with frozen pizza. Anti-depressants was seeming to make the argument that tv advertising is about fifteen to twenty times less effective than the literature. Said yes. that's right was most of the research that had made claims about. Roi in advertising was done by the advertising and marketing industries themselves. Not necessarily so. There's plenty of independent akkad amac research. That's been done on advertising effectiveness over the years. Many of these earlier research projects were individual case studies that measured just a single product but the effects for a single product may not generalize to other types of products or other product categories earlier. Researchers tried to address this problem by creating what's called a meta analysis that is pulling together hundreds of existing studies across a variety of categories. But as we started digging into those meta analyses we started to worry that the majority of data collection comes from published studies of advertising effectiveness and in our own experiences presenting our work on advertising. We experienced a lot of feedback that people expect. The advertising must be effective that it must be profitable because we observe firm spending billions of dollars on television advertising every year. And does that mean that. If you end up doing a study that shows the advertising not effective that it just gets put in a drawer instead. That's exactly are concerned that if you start analyzing data and find a no result you may be worried that it would just be really hard to get that published so you may stick it in the file drawer. That's called the file drawer problem or if you actually decide that you want to take on this battle and try to publish the paper you may face resistance in the review process academic journals of skepticism from others. Who say this isn't what we would expect. If we see these firms spending millions of dollars on ads must be profitable so there must be something wrong in your analysis in other words a conventional wisdom once established can be terribly hard to dislodge. Remember what keith weed told us earlier. The fact that companies like unilever spent billions suggests that maybe advertising does work so tuchman and her colleagues faced a dilemma except that the results they had gotten measuring the ad effectiveness of individual categories like e cigarettes and antidepressants and frozen entrees. Were outliers or maybe even wrong or they could try to do. A massive empirical analysis of many products across many categories using better data than the previous researchers who did individual case studies had had available. This is one of the benefits of being an academic researcher in such a data rich era. I mean it's not by chance the popularity of these individual case studies. It's hard enough to go out and collect data on one firm and their advertising and sales spending let alone do this for hundreds of products at once and so this was a challenge but we had a really great opportunity which was to work with nielsen. Data that's made available to academic researchers remember. You need two distinct sets of data to measure at efficacy. How much money advertisers spend. And they spend it as well as how much change there is in product sales and again when wear so the data that we work with is from two thousand and ten to two thousand fourteen. The sales data is collected by nielsen in partnership with many different retail chains. So this is going to be grocery. Stores drugstores can bian stores mass merchants stores etc so. The data contains sales for more than three hundred thousand different brands which are typically going to be consumer packaged goods that are sold at these more traditional retail outlets to narrow it down tuchman enter co-authors focused on the top five hundred brands as measured by dollar sales brands. Like coca cola and pampers and folders and bud light so these sales data represent half of the data equation but of course. We're interested in measuring at effectiveness. So then we need to take this sales data and merge it up with the advertising data that is also collected by nielsen and ultimately we were left with two hundred. Eighty eight of those initial five hundred brands. Does this mean that. Two hundred and twelve of the top. Five hundred consumer packaged goods brands. Don't routinely advertised on tv. There are a few brands that advertise very few weeks where we wouldn't have enough variation in the data to measure anything so it's not all two hundred twelve but yes. There are many brands that are choosing not to advertise on tv brands. Like crisco and bumblebee tuna a naked fruit juice. So plainly there are plenty of successful companies. Who don't think. Tv advertising is as worthwhile as the ad industry seems to think now keep in mind that tuchman analysis covered only consumer packaged goods. No automobile advertising no ads for insurance or financial services so how representative with this analysis. Be of the whole advertising picture. I don't want to say that it's representative of the whole picture. And as i described the selection of products we focus here on the top five hundred brands that advertise or the two hundred eight advertise. And so we're naturally going to be selecting more established products once they merged the gigantic data set of product sales with the gigantic data. Set of ad spending tuchman and her colleagues used an analytical method similar to the one she had used to study e cigarette sales that is they looked at bordering advertising markets that received different ads and then using a few different models they compared product sales. Would they find. This might sound familiar. We find that media brandon. Our data has an steve around point. Zero one out so this means that doubling the amount of advertising would lead to about a one percent increase in sales for these brands. I can hear marketing directors across the country having their brains implode and praying that their ceo's are not hearing this. I mean a one percent increase in sales on a huge base of sales could still be a meaningful increase. And so that's the next step in. Our analysis is to try to estimate the roi of this advertising once we take into account the cost of buying those ads. Okay so what did they find when they calculated the return on investment of advertising dollars across their entire sample. We find that almost all brands seem to be over advertising and that they are earning a negative. Roi from advertising in an average week and if they were to instead decided not to advertise in a given week they would earn higher profits things look slightly more rosy when we look at the overall roi calculation. They're a larger fraction of brands. Do seem to be better off with their observed level of advertising relative to the alternative of not advertising at all. Is there a lot of variance between different types of products or categories may be beer ads. Work great but ads for laundry detergent or a dud. So we try to look at this and we don't find any statistically significant differences across product categories. Okay you conclude in the paper that quote the vast majority of brands over invest in advertising and could increase profits by reducing their advertising spending. So my question is as much a philosophical. One is an empirical one. Why are so many modern capitalist companies which are theoretically devoted to optimizing their profits making such a fundamental economic mistake. This is very much the billion dollar question that we would love to have a great answer to unfortunately are empirical analysis can't fully explain why but we have a few different hypotheses as to what could be going on one. Hypothesis involves what economists call the principal agent problem. So the manager. That's in charge of setting the television. Advertising spending and with advertising agency there incentives may not be aligned with the profit maximizing goals of the firm. They don't wanna put themselves out of a job by doing a lot of digging and showing that oh it turns out our. Tv ads are unprofitable. Another reason firms may be spending more than they should on. Advertising is simply because as both tuchman and levitt found. It's really hard to measure at effectiveness. So it may be that. Advertising managers do want ensure that advertisers profitable but they may not be using a sophisticated methods or tools to properly account for this dodging eighty problem in dodge eighty meaning. It's hard to tease apart different. Variables that may travel together but may not be causally related like running tv ads for hand lotion. Only in winter. It may make sense to advertise more periods of high demand that doesn't have to arise because managers just trying to pad their numbers. It could actually be the right decision to do that. But if we don't account for the fact that demand would naturally be higher during certain periods when we tend to advertise more and we falsely attribute that increase in sales to the causal effective advertising. That could lead us to overstate the effect of ads. That said i'm still going to assume that you and your colleagues are not going to be invited to many advertising conferences in the near future. We'll have to see. I presented this work at an advertising conference back in january in australia when we can all still travel and folks from academia definitely had very different perspectives compared to the folks that were there from industry. Yes i'm a little bit skeptical as you can hear my voice. That again is the longtime advertising executive keith weed and i think it's great academics. Look at it. If they're found the magic about how all these companies could improve of it. I'm sure that love to see that solution. I could see consumers hearing that analysis and thinking. well a lot of the cost of advertising. Maybe all of it for all i know is passed on to consumers and in many instances generic products are shown to be demonstrably as good as or identical to brand name products. So would you say to those consumers who maybe feel like. They're being fleeced debate. So i will advertising funds a huge amount of things. We see around us so all i free payment. Google searches google maps posting on facebook or tweeting or indeed. A large amount of tv is all for free. In fact the free press. The backbone of democracy is funded by advertising so i would start with saying the advertising does a lot of good the sensor may strike you as a moving of the goalposts that is when presented with evidence that advertising doesn't work as advertise the advertising executive counters with all the ancillary benefits of advertising. That said keith weed has another more practical objection to the research we've been discussing. No business wants to be wasteful in resources whether that be water or natural resources or indeed human or advertising so the hypothesis put forward is attractive. If you could reduce the cost. Why wouldn't you. yeah i mean. The conclusion in our paper is really that many firms are over advertising and this will hopefully serve as an incentive for them to more carefully estimate the effectiveness of their own advertising with the goals that they can optimize that ad budget and spend money on ads where it's effective but not spend that money that's not effective so we've been talking about advertising on tv which has been a wildly successful and remunerative industry for a long long time but of course the world has changed a lot and digital advertising is different in a number of ways the reason facebook and google or collectively worth nearly two trillion dollars is because they can easily target advertising because their consumers willingly tell them exactly what they like. And don't like so. I would think that digital advertising would be many times more effective than the tv advertising. You've been studying yes. If done effectively than yes. We might find that. On average certain types of online ads have the potential to be much more effective than tv advertising. They're also great examples of online ads that proved to be not super effective. I don't know if you've come across. That was looking at the effect of google search advertising by blake nosko into dallas. Yes name is steve to dallas. I'm a professor at berkeley's business. Just as anna tuchman told us today about the efficacy or lack thereof of tv advertising. Steve to dallas is dying to tell us what he's learned about the efficacy of digital advertising. And how the whole digital ad ecosystem works but that will have to wait till next week. The weight i assure you will be worth. Oh adds definitely work. But we can't tell you how or why or give you any evidence for it. That's next time on freakonomics radio until then take care of yourself and if you can someone else too radios produced by stitcher and w productions this episode was produced by daphne chen our staff also includes alison. Craig lowell greg. Rippin matt hickey zach. Lipinski and married to duke or intern is immaterial and help this week from james foster. Our theme song is mr fortune by the hitchhiker's all the other music was composed by louis. Scare you can get freakonomics radio on any podcast app. If you'd like to hear the entire ten year back catalogue use the stitcher app or go to freakonomics dot com freakonomics. Radio can also be heard on many. Npr stations around the country. as always. thanks for listening. How much money would you estimate that you personally have spent on golf over the past. Maybe five years. How much of that was driven by some form of advertising. Maybe twenty five thousand dollars. And i day. Advertising was very effective on me. 'cause i'm more or less bought one of everything over stitcher.

keith weed anna tuchman td ameritrade pittsburgh unilever tuchman one hundred percent two hundred fifty billion doll us trillion dollars Stephen duffner steve levin nielsen two hundred million dollars fifteen years Lipton tea ben Wanamaker department Tuchman ninety nine percent Great tuchman