20 Episode results for "Truckee"

Multiplying risks (December 2019)

AOPA Never Again

11:36 min | 1 year ago

Multiplying risks (December 2019)

"This episode of never again is brought to you by Garmon. Find out more at Garmin DOT COM slash aviation a COPA presents. Never again true pilot stories from the world of General Aviation in this episode accepting a number of seemingly seemingly minor risks endangers vacationing Cherokee pilot and his family. Get your IOF are chops ready. And let's go for a night ride in and multiplying risks by John Parker. It was Labor Day weekend and I was looking looking forward to a weekend at lake. Tahoe with my family. I flew my wife two toddlers up to truckee Tahoe airport from San Carlos airport just south of San Francisco. The flight was uneventful aside from a delay because of a disabled aircraft on the runway the flight home however was anything but on on eventful. The plan was to depart Monday. At Seven PM. Sunset was at seven thirty five so that would put me well out of the mountains. Before for darkness fell it would also allow the air to cool down enough to get the density altitude below eight thousand feet which I had decided was my limit the the airplane needed to be as light as possible for the high density altitude departure so I only added ten gallons of fuel at truckee after I arrived. I had confirmed that I'd get another night at our hotel if I needed to wait until morning. We had a good time Monday. Floating down the truckee truckee river and letting the kids ride bikes. I began loading and pre flighting the Piper Cherokee one eighty at six PM. I was pretty tired but judged myself okay for the flight. My weather briefings showed fifteen knots of headwind from the south and a slight possibility of an overcast layer at San Carlos. I was happy to see the winds. Were only fifteen knots as that allayed concerns about mountain wave turbulence. The graphical forecasts showed owed only scattered clouds at one thousand one hundred feet but the San Francisco Taff had a broken layer at that altitude. It's common for San Francisco. Oh to be sucked in while. San Carlos is clear so I expected clear skies for landing. I was planning to pick up an F. R. Clearance once I was out of the mountains. Anyway anyway what I didn't do at this point was reevaluate. My fuel situation. I had two and a half hours of fuel onboard on board. The trip would take one point. Three hours in zero wind giving a tight but acceptable margin however I had a headwind to deal with also the nearby marginal ceilings at San Francisco should have been caused plan fuel for a missed approach and alternate. It's hard to say exactly actually why I didn't do this. But it was probably a combination of all the family and loading details as well as my seven PM deadline and fatigue league. We took off from truckee at seven. Fifteen on climb out. I manage five hundred feet per minute at the Y.. which was is about seventy five fee permit better than I had calculated? We turned on course toward Donner Lake and headed West over the mountains. A flaw aw. My plan became immediately apparent. We were faced directly into the sunset. My forward visibility was terrible. I couldn't see much to my right because of my position in the cockpit but I could see to the left. I flipped to the terrain page on my arm and GM S. four thirty and navigated via the red and yellow blotch four flight. And what piloted I could manage. I also had my wife Watch for terrain out her window. Thankfully the air there was smooth with zero down drafts. I breathed a big sigh of relief. Once we made it up to ten thousand five hundred feet and the terrain page was a reassuring black. I trimmed for crews and we enjoyed the beautiful sunset views over the mountains. Once we got over the central the valley night fell and I picked up my I F R clearance with nor cal approach. They immediately informed me that San Carlos was closed because because of an accident. I thought it was pretty impressive. Luck to have my destination closed on both legs of the trip. I told them I'd switch to Palo Low Alto in quietly hoped. san-carlos would reopen in time after getting my clearance Iran. Another cruise check. I was only making one hundred hundred knots over the ground based on the winds and my expected iof are route. I'd land with forty five minutes fuel remaining. Yikes the the whole South Bay was still reporting good via far though so I wasn't concerned about going missed. I seriously considered declaring minimum fuel. But it didn't as I couldn't remember the exact requirements. Clearly I should have as any delay would have caused me to burn into my eye afar reserves. I spent the remainder of the flight. Watching my fuel gauges total iser and ground speed. While micromanaging the mixture I considered -sidered diverting to a closer airport but I had two young kids in the back who desperately needed to get home to their beds. I didn't even think about stopping for fuel because because it was too late for an F. B. O.. Fuel truck my home. Airport has no self service fuel. So I'd never filled up my own airplane before the thought lot of figuring that out for the first time that night with my family on board was not appealing. I asked nor cal approach about San san-carlos again. They told me it was a pretty serious accident and that it would be a while. I resigned myself to a diversion later. I learned that a Cessna one eighty five at ground. looped buckled a gear leg bent wing and had a strike thankfully. The pilot was fine. I was planning to shoot. GPS Three one approach into Palo Alto however when the aid is came in range. I learned that the. GPS three one approach was is not available at night that left the VR approach and the visual nor cal hates the VR approach. Because it interferes with the flow of airline arrivals apples into San Jose. They'll give it to you if you insist. But you can expect delays. I couldn't afford delays so I took the visual the runway lights lights in Palo Alto are dim so I usually identify the field by finding the brightly lit ramp area. I thought I saw it but that turned out to be a parking lot. I simply couldn't see the field in the dark. I probably Click the lights on six times. I had to use a combination of dead reckoning reckoning piloted and GPS to get myself more or less on final. Finally I found the field on three mile final after that the landing and and taxi were uneventful. I had seven point eight gallons remaining or forty nine minutes as I wrote in an Uber to pick up. The car are from San Carlos. A wave of fatigue hit me. I was completely wiped out on. I finally got home and put the kids to bed. I collapsed and was was asleep in minutes. The next day I thought through my decisions during the flight each risk I took was manageable by itself but together they produced an unacceptable outcome when risk factors come together they don't add up they multiply supply the high density altitude departure required light fuel load which put me at risk of fuel emergency the lack of F.. Fbi Oh services available at night reduced my refueling options and my kids in the back added considerable pressure to continue a joe to take off near sunset because of the high elevation. This nearly blinded me to terrain WANNA turn West into the sun. It also introduce reduced schedule pressure. Since I was unwilling to fly over mountainous terrain in the dark as a result I rushed my weather briefing and didn't take the time to consider sitter the effect on my fuel requirements. I also felt the need to turn toward home immediately after departure instead of circling in the truck valley four altitude after a long day chasing kids rafting in a stressful flight. I was exhausted as I began my approach. If I've been thinking clearly I could have declared minimum fuel and asked for the V. O R approach alternately. I could have canceled. I F R and flown direct to the field for a normal via for pattern instead I blindly blunder down visual approach until I was nearly on top of the field. I'll also be making a few changes to my personal minimums as a result of the sobering experience. I won't be doing anymore night. Flights with young kids on board award their bedtime needs produce. Get Home Itis in the extreme. Next time I go to Tahoe with the family all insist on a morning departure. Cheer to wake up fresh and depart in the morning sun in the future. I will plan to alternates when flying. I F R one for weather and one and for other diversions. My plan alternate was hayward which would have been a good choice if there had been low ceilings. However when I had to divert for non non weather reasons I chose Palo Alto because it was closer to home? I hadn't seen the NOTAMS for Palo Alto. which complicated my approach planning? Finally if I ever find myself near legal fuel minimums again. I won't hesitate to declare minimum fuel and get the help I I need. I didn't declare because it was my own bad decisions. That put me in this situation and I was worried about the repercussions by failing to declare declare I was valuing my certificate above the lives of my wife and kids. I won't make that mistake again. Never again will I expose does my family or myself to that level of risk. We made it home safely but it was too close for comfort. The never again. PODCAST is brought to you monthly by the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association. You can find more never again stories online at Ao Pa Dot Org by tight big never again into the search box while you're there check out ao PA's he as mobile flight planning APP AO PA.. Go as well as the many free training and safety courses from the Air Safety Institute and find all of this and more at Ao Pa Dot Org the never again. PODCAST is produced by Royce Earl. Thanks for listening fly as safely.

San Carlos San Francisco Palo Alto truckee truckee Tahoe airport Tahoe truckee truckee river San Carlos San Francisco Taff Garmin Palo Low Alto COPA San Jose General Aviation mountain wave John Parker San san-carlos Donner Lake
Vegas Might Be for Weddings, But Reno is For Divorce

Aerial America

01:47 min | 1 year ago

Vegas Might Be for Weddings, But Reno is For Divorce

"For years the city of Rio offered married couples of FAST CHANCE TO UNTIE THE KNOT 1931. Lawmakers he's here made it easier to get a divorce than anywhere else in America which turned reno into the country's divorce capital brand. New Hotels were quickly built to house. The flood of would be divorce as one of the first and the classiest at the time was the El Cortez. It's hard to believe now. But it was also the tallest building in Reno when it opened. In Nineteen thirty-one hopeful full wives paid a premium rate of six dollars a night to recline and its art deco splendour. As they waited out the six weeks residency required for Reno divorce and once they're wait was over. They headed to the wash county courthouse to get their decree. Nearly thirty three thousand people got divorced divorced here in the nineteen thirties. Low after life magazine published a photograph of a young woman kissing courthouses classical pillars for good luck a new tradition was born Marilyn. Monroe did the same in the nineteen sixties. Film the misfits in the film. She also honored another Reno. Divorce a tradition. She went over to this bridge on the Truckee River and through her wedding ring over the side by then the days of being reno vacated code for getting a divorce coming to an end as marriage laws were being eased in every state.

reno wash county courthouse Truckee River El Cortez Rio America life magazine Monroe six dollars six weeks
62 - Best of Ghost Stories: Part 1

Whores Talk Horror

41:37 min | 8 months ago

62 - Best of Ghost Stories: Part 1

"Welcome Tom. Fours. Talk or we're not really horse. We just like word play. Hello and welcome to Horace Talk Hor I'm Sharon and I'm Linda. We've been pretty busy lately with work in the podcast also took some time off because three of us all had birthdays in the last month what and frankly we kind of needed a vacation break, but we realize. So we didn't have any new episodes to record. So instead of taking a week off completely and not having any episode at all, we decided to put together some of our favorite ghost stories from past episodes fall in Halloween season are upon us. So what better time to crack open a pumpkin beer or grab a cup of hot cocoa and sit around a fire and listen to some spooky tales. So here you go enjoy. And this first story comes to us from. Andrea in Colorado. My husband and I used to be full time musicians and we had a house Gig at a place in Sds Park Colorado called. Mary's Lake Lodge the lodge has a long history including housing tuberculosis patients in recovering world war. One, vets there was also talk of Stephen. King's aunt owning KANU at the lodge during the time that he wrote the shining, and if you set foot upon its quarters, you might have felt an undeniable craziness that was eerily similar to the infamous hallways that the little boy character road his big wheel through. I was thrilled to have a house gig there as a sensitive. Immediately feel how incredibly haunted this place was. At that time in my life, I was doing a little bit of ghost investigating inspired by all those ghost hunting television shows that. The heavy come so popular, the ones that mindy loves DEBENDRA. and Mary's Lake Lodge did not disappoint in the department. Every single time we investigated we experienced some type of supernatural activity one particular evening our investigation turned a bit terrifying. The hotel always gave us a room where we had a GIG and this night my husband had decided to retire early and did not join us. We had brought our doggy go on acute name. Yeah we had brought. Our doggy harlow with us and she was waiting in the room I was comforted that she would not be alone with the spirit that my husband may be there with her at that point, the customers had cleared out of the restaurant and bar area and I began the investigation with the bartender, his girlfriend and one of the servers. It was probably a little after midnight at this point. The first thing that kept happening during this investigation was a constant and recurring sound from the men's bathroom and incredibly loud bang over and over and over. It sounded like steel toed boots kicking the vent. It was a sound that none of the employees or I had ever heard before and the craziest part of it was at the moment that one of the guys went into the bathroom and stopped and the moment that they left the bathroom started up again this continued throughout our investigation and became the backdrop for the spooky activity that we experienced that night. We were using the bartender cell phone to record activity and found that we were able to see things on the cell phone that we could not see with our own eyes. It was strange at one point we saw a black mass floating across his viewfinder and captured a picture of it. It was without form and had very jagged edges. Not, one of US actually thought directly, but everyone thought moving through the viewfinder. That's that's awesome. That's awesome and also be. Thank you. Right, after this had occurred, we had the camera focus on a statue that was on the countertop directly across from the men's bathroom. Keep in mind we are still hearing the constant banging coming from the bathroom. The statue is a replica of saint and his neck was outstretched and looking up. As we all looked at the statue through the viewfinder of the camera, the face of the statue started to change up. Again, we could only see this through the viewfinder of the camera and not by looking directly at it. and. The new face began performing in the neck of the Statue Oh my God. My God I have not heard this by the way. WHO and the new face was the most cliche evil face. None of us could believe what we're seeing as a sensitive. I could feel the dark energy of this entity and I believe that we were dealing with an entity that night not the human spirit and a dark entity certainly, not a light one. At this point in the investigation, the bartenders girlfriend was curled up in a ball on the couch in the lobby. Like I would probably be I know right she was terrified and had had enough truthfully I was getting a bit terrified to and that was unusual for me as I believe that most spirits are just people without a physical body who are lost and looking to move on and that never scared me. But this thing that we were interacting with this thing was truly shaking me to the core and all that I wanted to do was get far far away from it. So we mutually decided to under investigation it was around three in the morning at this point anyway and everyone left lodge and went home I want him to our room told my husband what had just happened as we were talking about the investigation we. That we were the only guest in the lodge that evening. fucking. Oh Man there is no way that I was GONNA say the rest of the night and we literally flat Mary's Lake. Lodge in the wee hours of the morning good choice with our doggy her though. I felt so protective of her and of my husband and we announce before getting into the car that any spirit that maybe following us was absolutely unwelcome in forbidden to join us any further. That's good. Yeah. A good job. I will never forget that evening or the feeling that accompanied it an all my investigations it was the closest feeling too pure evil. I have ever experienced show. Thank you Andrea for that story. and. This go story comes from David Hello David. Thank you so much for sending in your story. I. Hope I can. Do It justice and there are some Scottish. Words Slash Landmarks Missouri that I hope I pronounce correctly and if I I apologize. So here we go. Shortly after graduating from college one of my best friends Tom, moved to Michigan and refunded Mike a retired professor their friendship developed from mutual enjoyment of the outdoors upon visiting Mike's Property Tom Notice, an incredible set of guarding surrounding his house and also several buildings that were dispersed on his beautiful land. One of those buildings was an original log cabin built by a family of Scottish settlers back in the eighteen fifties surprise at the great shape, the cabin was in Thomas. Mike to see the inside of the cabin, most everything that the Scottish family had owned remained in pristine condition. This included a washboard table and chairs old blankets and even a few old plates forks, pots and pans mike explain that a family had lived in that cabin for years. But never knew any of the details Mike also explain that friends and even local history groups had come into the cabin before but didn't stay long after hearing what sounded like a woman Singye. Mike had heard the singing before as well but never wanted to admit to any of the visitors but having been intrigued by the story is Tom asked. If he could spend a night in the cabin Mike obliged and also said, he would like to stay there as well to see if they can hear an east singing safety in numbers exactly and so armed with sleeping. Bags flashlights, and a tape recorder and Mike spent the night inside the cabin Lo and behold three in the morning both were awoken by the sound of a woman singing in an unknown dialect in sounded foreign yet it was clear as day. So of course, the words cannot be understood, but they did record with the seemed like was a minute of the singing shut up I. Literally. Okay good. I can finish. They reported it. They did they did they actually got audio and justice the singing stopped. And here's the part. When I I read this email mail gave me. Shivers and made the hair on the back of my arm stand up in a theoretical outline of a woman in a long white dress holding what appeared to be a child wrapped in a blanket walked through the wall and out the main cabin door. Tom Mike. Looked each other in amazement and confirm to each other what they both saw. The next morning when they played the tape, only a few seconds for recorded but remember. They thought they recorded entire minute. All they heard was what sounded like a woman singing And I apologize for I do not have a good singing various. I'm not even an attempt to try and sing this really in its Scottish but I'm was anyways I. Forgive me. So bear me Oh. Even though they could've sworn, they heard more a friend of Mike's Music Historian listened to the tape a few days later and what some searching and constant replaying of the tape. The lyrics were discovered. The voice was actually singing. And once again. Not, I'm going to town, but I do have an actual audio of this. So I will play it bear meal Ole Horo translated as sad I am without the. Furthermore, it was discovered that the tune she was singing match the melody of an old Scottish Song called the. Ear Ski Love Lilt which was written on an island near the outer Hebrides called ear ski in one, thousand, nine, hundred nine, and as luck would have it a local acquaintance. Well, in his nineties who heard about Mike's Experience. Called Him in finally explain that his grandfather was a close friend of the family who lived in the cabin and that the family who lived in that cabin actually lost a child as a baby. And I actually have some audio recording that I'm going to play now of the US ski love. Lilt, which was the The closest thing to the actual record in which would they heard the actual according apparently has has now vanished they don't have it anymore, but it probably sounded something like this. A. Wow. I'd love to hear that recording like what they recorded I. Know I know I know I emailed David back in unfortunately he said they do not have that recording anymore. Yeah that would be that would be incredible to hear right now but that's like a super straightforward straight up store lake. There's no Oh, this weird thing happened and it could have been this or whatever. Like yes friend were sitting there. They heard something they saw something and then like there's a story even behind it straight up that matches everything exactly easy. I know I know I, love stories like that where it's what else could it be? You know you have two people there's no one else around your loan cabin you hear singing air in a cabin in the woods. So you know some crazy shit going to happen and go down. Yes I'm going to go down Yeah, and you know of both of you saw it is not your nothing's playing tricks on your is nothing can play tricks on to people's eyes or you know two people are not going to a hallucinate the same exact vision or hallucinate the same exact sound. Yeah. I love stories like this yet to the recording that they got and what they heard themselves. It was in that other language, right? Yeah, exactly. That's crazy. That's all itself is really haunting inside That would be. I would actually probably feel really satisfy like heard the. was like, why is this think I'd be scared if I heard that it'd be. Beautiful and sad and Yeah and David. Thank you so much for sending us that story. Thank you David. What's up next. To this story came to us from instagram from witchy woman. It's not there's not really a title. So I'm just going to jump right in and here we go my mom my two aunts and I were sitting in the living room. My Grandma Mike Mom's side had just passed a few months ago. At this point, she had a lengthy battle with brain cancer. We always have lots of family pictures on the wall. This is mostly because of that grandmother I think she always really liked the holidays and family pictures and making memories and things for people. My mom and my aunts were having a hard time with the death of their mother which was expected. They still do sometimes and it's been years I hear that. There have been accounts by family and friends that stay at my house. A couple of times involve my grandma mom said something along the lines of I don't want to put up the Christmas tree this year it doesn't feel the same without mom. We had a picture on the wall behind the TV of two of my cousins with Christmas tree in the back. As my mom said this the picture flew off the wall and into the middle of the floor. So we all take each other and said Gramma said, yes, you are. So I can I can totally anti is with us I think that's awesome that grandmas are like, no grandma this is the way it is, and I'm GonNa tell you put up the faulk injury. And are. Also had another shorty that I thought was really funny and just wanted to read it. She said that she also had some paranormal activity in her home. And she writes years later I saw white figure in my doorway that moved my mom dad and I were living at his house together before the two thousand eight recession and it was around Halloween. I was little enough to still have a baby doll like eight ish which you don't really have to justify having a baby doll and your age. I. Still Sleep with Teddy Bear. So whatever and I looked up at the ceiling and saw shadows that were scary to a little kid. which on a broom and owl bat or some of her examples. So scared I grabbed my baby doll and hopped the baby gate like a tiny criminal getting away from the police. To crawl in bed with my mom. Wears it was just a bad dream and I swear that they chase me down the hall. Baby I honestly told that last part seriously because I just wanted to say that phrase hop the baby gate at tiny criminal getting away from the police. But Yeah? It's sort of grandmothers, opinionated grandmothers and shadows. Thank you which you woman. When I was in middle school I stayed at the notoriously haunted truckee hotel Lake Tahoe for a family ski trip built in eighteen seventy three. As a stagecoach shop. You can imagine the rich history within its walls at check in my dad jokingly asked if the hotel is haunted to which they are applied very. As they handed the key to the fourth floor room, they said they had a number of known spirits including the ghost of a little girl who haunted the fourth floor. Oh Great. She likes to hang out in the mechanical room and caused blackouts they added. We got our room. I confirmed on the hotel fire up the staff only room across from us was in fact, the mechanical room naturally I was thrilled. Wow. Okay. Some background info a girl is kidnapped brought to the truckee hotel and murdered in. The Tub on the fourth floor. Oh. My God what if that was in the room that they stayed in holy Shit and they weren't kidding about those blackouts either for the duration the state they probably happen once a night and usually lasted for our what on New Year's Eve I had just begun flat ironing my hair when the power went out very annoyed I'm Mars Out Mechanical Room Door gave three loud knacks. Probably, much louder than that and said, can you please turn the lights back on I hear you girl can't you leave the hotel with like half frizzy hair. No and I I was blow dry my hair. Is and that was good thinking. In a split second later, they were back on ice later that night we were having dinner at the hotel restaurant when I realized I, left my camera in the room I convinced my dad to go retrieve it for me I snuck behind him up four flights of stairs and screamed. At the top he screamed and then joked that the woman we pass stairs looked like a ghost shut up but she was probably just attending a costume party on New Year's Eve. I was confused because I had been trailing him the entire time and saw no one. My insisted we pass it a woman who looked like she had just stepped out of the wild wild west in a large pioneer style gown. Both a little freaked out to find the camera as quickly as possible. So we can get out of there as we looked, we heard loud knocking on the door to a room several times but of course, the hallway was md every time we didn't find the camera until the following day in the side, the mini. Yeah and I'm sure they did not that there to this day. My Dad's still stands by seeing that woman on the stairs and the hotel is frequented by paranormal investigator. That's awesome. Wow. I did a little digging on a little extra INFO on the truckee hotel. I've never heard of it apparently that whole area of Lake Tahoe is very very haunted. So truckee was a town of the wild west Oh and I should say, sorry on this information. From the K. J. M. Truckee blog in their piece titled Tales of a haunted truckee. So truckee was a town of the wild west. One of the first legends of Truckee is the Donner Party, which we all know that story. The notorious Party was trapped in truckee because of an early October storm, the tails made famous by the party's resort to cannibalism to survive the truck you tol has seen a lot of activity. From the living world and beyond since eighteen seventy three, the hotel has welcome stage coast guests on their travels across. California after three name changes a great fire and thousands of guests Oh my God there is one thing that has stayed the ghost. The first is of a little girl that was murdered in about on the fourth floor Ding Ding Ding guest here, her running down the hall that night maybe do escape her assailants. Oh. That's horrible. Really horrible. The next is the lady in Red Architect Ron Gaunt a twenty plus year truckee resident walked into one of the hotel rooms and instantly felt a cold chill. There was a woman in a red dress long velvet definitely not of this time period. Kind of very, very similar to what? Cody stance. That's what I was. Just. thinking. Yeah. She walked into another room with no doors or windows and disappeared said gaunt I saw the person clear as day. Then she was gone the hair stood up on my arms and chill went down my spine. So that is a little story about truckee and thank you, cody. That was an awesome story. Great. So. When was your first? Experience. I it was when I was younger I honestly can't really pinpoint the exact aid. I, want to say I was like maybe eleven or something like that. We had just moved into a house in Wisconsin because we still have here in Chicago and we moved into a house in Wisconsin and and just like out of the blue one day. My mom asked me to go get her glasses from the bathroom. And the way that her room was set up, was that you have to go through. Her Room to get to the bathroom and when you go through the room on your left hand side was her bad on the right hand side was her dresser and there was a mirror on the dresser. and. So back, then my uncle, he used to a ghost hunter. But the reason why bring that up is because he had advised me that if I ever wanted to see a ghost that to keep in mind that you see him in your parole vision. and to try not to blink and just kind of turn and that you'll see them. And and so when I was walking through my mom's bedroom to go get her glasses and she was downstairs. And Walk Through and I notice that there was something out of place on the it was on the bed and I could see the reflection of it in the mirror at the same time. So i. saw them on both sides. And I kept walking through because I, I was like, okay that was not normal I. I get to the bathroom and I, pick up my mom's glasses I was like. There shouldn't have been anything other. And so I remember what my uncle had told me and I decided to like as I was going back out to go give my mom her glasses. I stopped right where it was in between the bed and the dresser and I decided not to blame because I could still see it and my personal vision and I turned. To look at my mom's bed and I saw a little girl sitting on my mom's bed. And she was all in white. She had dark hair. It was It was like an old kind of like an old fashioned style like haircut be yet and we'll she had bangs and her hair was like shoulder length. And she was wearing all white and she had like, I can't remember if I think they were either. White, I wonder white shoes with little black socks or black shoes little white sox one of those two and but when I looked at her. She was like a almost like she was onto a bear or stuffed animal or something, and there was a stuffed animal that my mom would always having her bed. And? And but her is when I looked at through her is it was like Very hollow like there was nothing there. There was no spirit you know like when you look at somebody they're alive but you know when you when you like. When you see somebody that's passing away or something and know it's like they fade away you know and there was nothing there like her eyes were almost transparent like. and. It was really creepy and all I hear my mom go but. We gotta go then. No I just turned around to run how and I didn't I didn't bother to look back or anything I just remembered like kind of being in shock. At like. What is this girl doing here like I like Okay the. Ads I went down, and then ever since then I kept seeing her in the house. And it was for years for years I kept seeing her and it would be like I would be changing or I. my dresser in my bedroom would be facing the door which was like in a corner and I'd be getting ready and I would see her in the reflection of the mirror behind me and she just be standing there. Just watching me you know or I just be walking down the hall and she'd be by my mom's door. It was always between like my remember mom's room and the thing is that my room was right next to my mom's room. One day like not when I was like fourteen, my parents had thrown me like a birthday party and got me this huge balloon and I mean, like one of those big like inflatable like balloons like the big ones you know. And and it I would always have it away from my bed in my bed because I was young I had like a canopy, the round in the bad. And I would sleep in it. So in order for you to get in it, you have to like kind of like duck down and move that canape. Good. Then it right. So I, went to sleep at night one night and I had a crazy dream. That I woke up because I heard the tea kettle going in the kitchen downstairs. And I wake up in my dream and I go downstairs to turn it off and it was daylight in my dream and I go downstairs turn it off and all of a sudden I turn around to go back upstairs and this woman was there. And and she was like maybe entertains or something and Chile demisch like what are you doing here but it was the same little girl just grown up. Yeah and she's like, what are you doing here and what do you mean I just you you're not supposed to be here you have to go. You can't be here. You gotta go. You GotTa go and I'm like what? I didn't know where to go liberty media. So we'RE GONNA go. and. So I, just I just ran upstairs to my room and I close the door and I like went under my covers in my dream and I still have the canopy and everything seemed very real. You know I'm under there and I had the covers under me and I was said in like in my dream the balloon was still in there I'm looking in the corner where the door is and the balloon is there and I see it floating getting closer and closer to me and and the canopy was slightly open. And it went down in under the canopy and it was floating above me and I'm just looking at it just watching it do its thing. What is it doing as it's closer starts getting closer and it comes down it comes right to my face and it's right at my face and trance transforms into the girls fair face the little girl's face and she goes boo. And she woke me up from my dream it was so scary like it scared me so much in my dream that it woke me up. And all of a sudden here her is laughing and my balloon floating inside my canopy. Was Not there before no. No because it was out by the door. And it was like it happened in real life. Like weird. Like thing. Do you think that was the summer net lived in the house prior news person was while I can come into that one. We had that house built. Oh, so it was completely nothing and. She told me about her drink. And so. What happened was that? I know exactly who she was. in to. Nineteen. Ninety there's just ninety, two, nine, thousand, nine, hundred had pregnancy and that pregnancy had to be terminated because they told me that the fetus had. ME. And so it was really really hard for me to accept that you know that does because it was my second child, it's seven years between the two. So I always had this well before everytime pregnant I know what I want. I'm going to have because it comes in my dream. I found her in a garbage can. In in an alley and I knew it was a girl. This. Beautiful Little Girl. Cat. Right. So with this one, I thought also and it was one that walked to me inhale don to be and was on my leg like hanging onto me. It was a little girl with black hair and Louis banks and stuff, and she is hanging on. So I was going to be a girl when that happened I went through a lot of depression because I had that and everything but I headed on August, I had to do a DNC in December when it was my birthday I got pregnant again, and the doctor told me not to have you know not to get pregnant because I had gone through so much trauma, but it happened so. That baby was born was supposed to be born April fourteenth still remember this April fourteenth. So in my by myself, I bought a little stuffed animal and that was her to me all these years and personally I was celebrate her birthday and that was. The best one I go ahead I still have it but I have it put away but it's a little bunny and she's really cute and everything, and so I had it on my bed and I knew that it happened and I knew someone was going to happen because the whole family was so excited to have our first home and it was exactly how I wanted it and I wanted to my kids and my youngest daughter was three years old so that baby would have been five years old. Okay. So that maybe would have been five years old and so I was so happy but I was so upset and depressed that I couldn't give this baby this beautiful, a brand, new house revenue everything and all this. So I was a happy sad at the same time I always kept it with me. Well, after we moved in, it was a two storey. Home so I was doing laundry at night and the basement first floor second floor. So the basement I had was doing laundry and I was in the first floor folding clothes in a here. This laughter he like. So. I. Thought it was my youngest one. You know coming down because she was so excited doing the stairs she never done the stairs up and down been out, turn the lights upstairs during the lifetime. So I thought it was hers so I went up the stairs and she was sleeping and wearing my. My Room and I asked my husband Hey, did you hear anything? He's like no when I went down as I was going down a here coming from the garage from the basement I, went into the basement that could hear it. Clearly he he what the heck is that. So I went downstairs in did it again in it was I saw it and we have boxes because we're just moving in and I saw this little dawn. Oh, if you guys remember it was a doll inside a walker in there with a remote control, they would walk well, that. Was it going for their hit hitting the wall coming back hitting the wall abandonment what the heck The battery on what the heck. So I opened up and I found I went through boxes to find the control in took out that in his stilted. Wow. So I had to take the thing apart so. I took the out of the Walker and all this stuff but inside I know what? who was she wanted to enjoy this too. She wanted to enjoy this too, and then I started seeing her too I started seeing her bid and everything and. Now, he's chicken. We would have had a move. Apparently. She loved the dog she loved the doll I don't know why maybe because she could control it. Remote control it. So when she told me about it, I said well, I think maybe four and a half to let her go because. She didn't tell me about it and I didn't say anything happened for years it and gone it came on she would be here on ice year in the kitchen on the side and I would just talk to him my mind I would talk to her and say you know. I'm so glad you're here to to be with us on others I would say that so I was walking welcoming her. So but then she was doing that and. What I taught my kids was that if you ever feel frayed. In someone, you feel someone say boot. You scare, them I. Yeah. So. When she did that in her dream, I knew it was her. I knew it was her. So the little girl using was the one who was afraid. Yeah. Ship is probably afraid. That I would always feel that going up the stairs because I would always feel entity behind me going up the stairs so I would always turn around and go. Boo. But you know what? I never put the two together. I always taught my kids always because I know that that there's so many things we don't know where we're going and what am so you scare I and that's I say that to you guys to scare them I and they'll leave you alone. I've never heard that is. So anyways and I told my daughter I say you know what we're going to have to. I told her I D- This your sister I told her. It's just sister and she's here and we need to let it go I need to let it go because I've had her since before she was born. And so I love babies and and. anyways. So I had to let it go and add a teller leave. I said you know you want to be here but you have an opportunity to come back maybe another another life and all this stuff and I'll be here with you and I'll be always we always be your mother and all this stuff. So I had it go. But I still have my. My daughter stood at the House I. Haven't I haven't. burned. And it sounds like there wasn't anything like make no. No. No. No she was just a little girl. She was growing with my old with my youngest daughter she was growing with her and I don't know if my little ones seen her. I don't know because she's also you know it's normal. Family. It sounds like not on your husband's Oh no, they're scared of and everything. Your Dad never experienced any of soft never saw things or he has, but he doesn't like talk about. He's more of like we don't talk sightings. Just talking about it pretends will never be able to sleep again he says, thank you. So we have one final listener story left Mindy. Would you like to read it I would and we just jump right in no introduction no nothing. I like your imitation to tell personal stories of fright from your audience. Sweet. We do too. I have a handful of paranormal experiences and a few hilarious stories of scaring others and being scared by others Sharon. Who does that sound like me? It's my favorite pastime. Scaring we. Will. Be. Chiming in from time to time with one of my tales of ood. This parentheses add your bill and Ted Impersonation here that was my bill and Ted's whoa anyway that was a horrible ten person nation but Shuns Work Spencer. Can you do better? Do it? No that's like Joey Lauren was that was the first thing that came to mind. Much better. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine I believe you. Now with the first time, I scared the crap out of someone and the first time I saw a ghost. Awesome. I was two and a half years old when my family and I were visiting my grandparents, the hallway of their house at night always creeped me out. It was super long in dark sounds familiar. I'd run as fast as I could to get the entry way of the living room terrified that something was going to jump out and get me on this particular visit. I came out of the bathroom and saw GRANDPA at the end of the hall peeking into the Living Room, he saw me and whispered Chimi come here I smiled and with no fear hurry down the hall towards him. SHH When I say now, jump out and go wrong Dr as loud as you can. He held his hands up making clause with them as he instructed me. My Grandfather Jim, who I am named after loved jumping out and scaring people. He was very funny man and this was his favorite way to make himself laugh one, two, three, no I jumped out and he was right behind me both of us going raw. As we could. My mother and grandmother all jumped and screamed my grandpa and I fell on the floor rolling with laughter. That's horrible. I heard my mother say, Oh, God he's got him doing it now. She always hated it when her father would scare her like that. She never liked being scared and now she was going to have to live with it again because I did it all the time. Yeah. I. Am a comedic actor and standup comic now and the reason I am is because my grandma taught me my first joke boo. A few months later in June of Nineteen, seventy seven not long before I turned three I had a dream that I was at my grandparents House I was walking down the dark hall toward my grandfather who was smiling at me when I got to him I saw my grandma sitting in his chair in the living room with my mom and aunt on their knees crying in front of her resting their heads on each one of her knees grandma had a hand on the back of her daughters of daughter's head as she wept as well. GRANDPA. WHAT'S WRONG He said he had to go. But. He wanted to say he loved me and to say goodbye then he picked me up and hugged me. My Mom woke me up and pick me up in her arms that morning I immediately told her my dream. She started crying saying that GRANDPA had a heart attack and passed away that night eight Oh. Oh, I said I'm glad GRANDPA said goodbye then. That was the first time I scared someone and the first time I ever saw a ghost, but neither time would be the last gem. Awesome gem send us more. We are down to hear your stories that was eight that was so sweet and and awesome. Well, there you have it, and if you have any of your own stories that you wanNA share with us, you can emails at horse top horror at go dot com. You can also write us with any other creepy stories true crime stories, the story about that one time you scared the shit out of your parents or just say hi to US please rate and review us on whatever streaming platform you listen to us on and helps us get more exposure. It's free and only takes a few minutes if you are able to please join our Patriot if you want to have early access to. See exclusive posts in maybe get some cool shit speaking of cool shit anyone who becomes a patron at any level by October I will receive a trick or treat of our choice sent to you directly through snail but honestly, they're going to be all treats because we're not gonNA, send you in the mail or anything like that unless you specifically requests that we do. And we have another upcoming treat for you patrons at the five dollar level or higher. Since we just aired are twin peaks, sound design episodes. We will have an upcoming exclusive episode where Spencer describes how you too can speak like a Black Lodge Resident ooh Aka, talking backwards. You could follow us at horse talk core on instagram and the link to our patron is in our bio. Thank you for listening to us. Please be kind to each other and be safe and as always thanks for getting be with us. Sharing you on a beer.

Tom Mike truckee hotel US David Hello David instagram Lake Tahoe Andrea Sharon Stephen Mindy truckee truckee Lake Lodge brain cancer Horace GRANDPA Mary
The Donner Party Pt. 2: Nowhere to Go

Survival

53:26 min | 1 year ago

The Donner Party Pt. 2: Nowhere to Go

"The following episode contains descriptions of starvation murder and cannibalism that some listeners may find offensive listener discretion is advised especially for children under under thirteen november fourteenth eighteen forty six the snow was deeper than any william eddie he had ever experienced the mere act of walking through it was exhausting eddie held the rifle close to his chest he he hoped he could find something worth hunting in these barren woods so far it had been slim pickings a fox here an owl there uh nothing substantial enough to revive his family strength eddie stopped just ahead of him. A grizzly bear was rooting getting through the snow. He couldn't believe his luck. Most bears had gone into hibernation by now. He raised the rifle and leveled the at the big furry back. The bear was at the very limits of his range. Even if he hit the lead ball wouldn't didn't do much more than anger it almost unconsciously eddie pop despair bullet into his mouth ready to load the moment he fired tired. I shot glanced off the bears back and the creature wheeled on him eddie ducked behind a tree hurriedly hurriedly reloading the weapon he could hear it charging toward him through the snow. He poured more powder into the rifle and rammed the second ball down down the barrel. As the bear rounded the tree eddie fired his second shot right into its chest at point blank range eddie eddie cast aside the rifle and picked up a large stick off the ground wasting no time he started beating the bear about the head with it to ensure sure it was dead satisfied eddie picked up his weapon and began to drag them massive carcass back to camp for a while while at least this little victory would keep his friends and family alive. Welcome to survival a podcast original. I'm your host irma blanco and i'm tim johnson every monday. We'll take you inside tide incredible true stories of life or death situations you can find episodes of survival and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever ever you listen to podcasts to stream survival for free on spotify just open the app tap browse and type survival into the search bar at par cast. We're we're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast podcast network and if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you are listening. It really does help. This is our second episode on the donner party. A group of california bound emigrants who got trapped on the eastern side of the sierra nevada mountains during the winter of eighteen forty a six unable to pass over the mountains in the snow they set up two camps one by truckee lake and another by alder creek with with only a meagre group of cattle and oxen left. They knew that if they didn't get out of the canyon soon they would all starve to death in may of eighteen forty six the donner reed party set out west spurned by ambitions of manifest destiny and a shared dream of settling in california. They're leaders. George donner and james read followed a guidebook written by lansford hastings entitled the emigrants guide to oregon and california hastings described a shortcut which he claimed named would've saved them around four hundred miles compared to the usual route to california ignoring warnings against taking the untested route read eidan donner tried their luck at this shortcut in the end it proved to be a treacherous and poorly thought out route by the time they rejoined the proper oppor emigrant trail in september eighteen forty six they had lost a month backtracking and delays shortly afterward james read eight quarrelled with and killed another man which caused him to be banished from the group. He set off towards california with a single companion hoping to rejoin his family once they got there. James reid and walter herron had a very rough time getting through the mountains they ran out out of food early on and on more than one occasion herron suggested shooting and eating reads horse glaucous read refused to consider <music> this idea on october twenty eighth the two starved and exhausted men stumbled into sutter's fort in california as soon as they arrived left it started raining heavily that night they were reunited with william big bill mccutcheon a member of the donner party who had gone ahead a month earlier for supplies before falling too ill to leave also at sutter's fort was edwin bryant a former traveling companion of his who had sent letters warning the donner party not to take hastings cutoff as they sat down over dinner bryant informed read that while they were on the road president james this k- poke had declared war on mexico. The sparsely populated territory of california was on the verge of becoming an american colony but mexico wasn't going to give it up so easily a local u._s. Army commander and former explorer john fremont was looking for volunteers. Take california for the united states due to his military background read was offered a captain's post in one of the volunteer regiments though he longed to do his duty as an american citizen read refused the commission the lack of news from his family troubled him most other settlers. I had reached sutter's fort by now. If the donner party was delayed any longer he feared they'd be snowed in. He told the army recruiters that he had to rescue his family. I but agreed to serve as a lieutenant in the war upon his return as read was recovering in sutter's fort his former travelling companions nations were experiencing the worst winter of their lives. The donner party had been split up into two camps. The larger camp was at truckee lake where fifty nine individuals were hunkered down in four cabins. Margaret reid who had been looking after their family since her husband in james exile had moved into a cabin with the graves family. The green family had a cabin of their own as well as the murphys and the keys burg's the smaller families such as william eddie and his wife moved in wherever they could find extra room five miles to the northeast another group of twenty two men women and children had made camp along alder creek among them were george donner along with his wife children and brother jacob jacob due to what seemed like a minor hand injury george had not managed to complete their log cabins before the snowfall became too heavy to work gin and had been forced to take shelter in three hastily constructed canvas tents. Both camps were set up by the evening of november third win. When a massive storm descended on the sierras it snowed for eight days straight as they hid from the snowfall the immigrants migrants faced some difficult decisions each family that's still had livestock particularly the breen's and the grazes who had half a dozen oxen each face the question of whether they should butcher their whole heard right away or try and work through them one at a time to prevent the meat from spoiling failing to complicate the matter the heads of the less lucky families like margaret reid and william eddy attempted to buy oxen from their neighbors. The reeds could afford to buy two oxen from both the brains and the graves but eddie didn't have as much money to spare. He wound up purchasing the the starved corpse of an ox off franklin graves for twenty five dollars. Once the livestock had been distributed. They set about slaughtering most of with them slaughtering. The oxen was cumbersome work. The immigrants either had to shoot them which risk the bullet ricocheting off the animal's skull or or hold them by the horns as someone with their throat once the livestock were dead they had to be butchered and stored keeping the meat from rotting being wasn't difficult they simply buried the fresh cuts and the snow banks under the circumstances they used every part of the oxen they could feeding whatever meager awful they have left to the dogs as the donner party was butchering their animals and preparing to settle down in early november. James reid lead had finally recovered enough of his energy to leave. Sutter's fort determined to rejoin his family. He turned back east and made for the sierras. He was accompanied by big bill mccutchen who was finally free of his illness and determined to rejoin his wife. Amanda and daughter harriet john john sutter had helpfully provided them with thirty horses a mule plenty of flour and a large cut of beef for their journey to more of sutter's native american me walk employees came with them to manage the horses they faced heavy rain and sleet as they went three days into their trek. The snow had risen by over two feet. It became increasingly difficult to soldier onward as the temperature richard dropped the me walks abandoned them leaving reed and mccutchen to managed thirty horses on their own overwhelmed. They released all but nine of the horses an attempted to forge ahead through the snow on their way they encountered a tent containing to near starving starving settlers who read referred to in his journal as mr and mrs curtis in return for some flour and beef. Mr curtis offered reed. You'd mccutchen some of the meal they had been cooking. When the men arrived a piece of their family dog the weather became exceedingly harsh as reed and mccutchen continued to fight their way east climbing uphill through nine feet of snow dragging nine horses behind them reed and mccutchen grew grew exhausted one day after leaving the curtis's shelter they finally conceded that the weather was too strong for the both of them as the snowfall intensified. The men turned back west. They couldn't have known it but they may have been only ten or twelve miles from reaching their families. Someways at truckee lake when he returned to sutter's fort read described their aborted mission to john sutter sutter told him that there were not enough able bodied men to form a suitable relief party to help them due to the ongoing war with mexico sutter then asked read how much livestock the rest of the party had with them read later wrote sutter made an estimate and stated that if the immigrants would kill the cattle and replace the meat in the snow for preservation there was no fear of starvation until relief could reach them reassured read road out to san francisco where his post in the mexican american war awaited. If the war ended soon maybe able to gather the rescue party he needed as james read road west his wife margaret prepared to hunker down for the winter and wait for rescue in the truckee lake camp. She could not risk bringing her children out into the cold but not all of the settlers had given up hope of escape. The fifty seven year old franklin franklin graves had no intention of getting stuck there all winter. They had no reason to expect a rescue party so they had to get help themselves. The day the snow stopped on november twelfth. He said about rallying a party to scale the mountain later that day franklin raves set off for the mountain with twelve to fifteen individuals all men save for franklin's two daughters they were guided by charles stanton and the to me walks luis and salvador. The expedition was doomed from the start. When the team reached the west end of truckee lake they encountered banks of snow rising almost ten feet high every step sank deep into the snow making forging forward exhausting acting and inefficient soon they could go no further frustrated. They turned back. When franklin arrived back at truckee lake and midnight midnight he had no intention of admitting defeat he only needed to look at the meagre food stores to no they wouldn't last the winter. During during the eight days of snowfall the families had worked their way through almost all of the meet the cattle and oxen had provided them some men had attempted to fish in truckee lake but had little success eventually the river had frozen to solid to break through the ice. William eddie borrowed a rifle from from william foster and set about hunting for the group he was a talented marksman but there were very few animals to be found in the surrounding wilderness on november fourteenth eddy and foster surprise the camp by dragging a grizzly bear carcass in from the surrounding mountainside. They butchered it and distributed the meat between the families female. Grizzly bears can weigh up to four hundred pounds and males can weigh up to six hundred but even even six hundred pounds of meat wouldn't go far when divided between eighty one hungry people within days. The grizzly carcass had been picked clean seen on november twenty first franklin graves group made another attempt at scaling the mountain two days later they returned and defeated another heavy snowfall hit on november twenty sixth preempting another escape attempt but franklin graves was still determined to to break free of their mountainous prison. He had grown up in vermont so he was used inhospitable winters. He said about making snowshoes enlisting the help help of charles stanton and william foster stanton and foster didn't know how to make snow shoes but they could help him gather the necessary materials over the the next few days they hunted through the snow gathering the wooden ox bows from the yoke of their fallen cattle. The bose formed the frames of these snow shoes wile franklin's daughter sara caustic in marianne graves cut strips of rawhide to weave in between the frames foraging for snowshoe materials israel's thoroughly occupied. Many of the settlers as december began on december. Ninth charleston wrote a note to the donner family. The the storm prevented us from getting over the mountains. We are now getting snow shoes ready to go on foot. I should like to get your pocket. Compass as the snow is so so very deep and in the event of storm it would be invaluable. The mules are all straight off. If any should come round your camp let some of our company. No it the first opportunity he received no reply from the donner camp but by this point franklin graves had made enough snow shoes for a reasonably sized foray into the mountain they would have to go with or without the donners help. Franklin went from cabin to cabin <music> gathering able bodied men and women for a final desperate attempt to break through the sierra nevada by the morning of december sixteenth he had gathered sixteen willing volunteers. They only had fourteen sets of snowshoes between them but it would have to do. It was better better to have as many helping hands as possible. This was their last hope had surviving the winter when we return and franklin graves leads a seemingly suicidal attempt to escape their winter in prison <music> soon nominees volcanoes tornadoes earthquakes. These are real life monsters. We like to think we're prepared for a catastrophe but the time and time again mother nature proves us wrong each week the new park cast original natural disasters investigates the earth's most devastating estadio catastrophes and explores. The stories of the people impacted by them. Some of these natural disasters are ancient and shrouded in mystery like the volcanic eruption of mount vesuvius where it's believed that sixteen thousand people died due to heat and suffocation now others are more recent like the eight climbers who were caught in a terrible blizzard in nineteen ninety-six as they attempted to scale mount everest or two thousand eleven sue nami that killed an estimated eighteen thousand people in japan with waves reported three stories high natural disasters remind us that despite humanity's achievements hence we are no match for the fury of mother nature listen and subscribe to natural disasters for free on spotify and anywhere you listen to podcasts now back to the story by december sixteenth franklin graves saves had found sixteen individuals to follow him out of the valley in all the party numbered ten men five women and two boys this included franklin graves his son-in-law and two eldest daughters william eddy william foster the irish bachelor patrick dolan colin and a mexican catalan named antonio they were guided by the three men who had been through the past before charles stanton and the to soon native americans luis and salvador for food. The group brought a few strips of dried beef eddie still had foster's rifle foil and was ready to hunt to ensure that have the strength to keep going the snowshoe party would later be dubbed. The four lauren hope by historians. This term most often refers to a detachment of soldiers leading an offensive with the expectation of high casualties. It was sunny sunny the day the forlorn hope set off from the lake camp. The snow was thick but franklin graves has snow shoes. Were effective in keeping the group from sinking into good halfway across truckee lake two of them turned around charles burger and ten year old william murphy didn't have snow shoes and realized they couldn't keep pace with the others on the second day december seventeenth they reached the east face of the pass luis and and salvatore led the party with the women directly behind them and the men bringing up the rear around midday they reached the mountain wall and started did the arduous climb the snow grew deeper as they ascended even with graves snowshoes. They sank into the snow. Oh with every step the bright sun reflected off the snow in front of them forcing them to squint as they went their eyes began to ache with the early signs of snow-blindness. Everyone in the party had started their journey in good health but a month of rationed food had taken a dramatic toll on their stamina. The thin mountain air force the party to take frequent stops to rest the members of the forlorn hope had dressed themselves does well when they set off and managed to stay remarkably dry during their first the sent on december seventeenth however by protecting themselves against against hypothermia they put themselves at risk for another equally deadly enemy hyperthermia because of their heavy winter clothing they were just as likely to overheat as to freeze during the strenuous climb all fifteen remaining members of the forlorn hope reached the top of if the pass by late afternoon exhausted they set up camp for the night snowfall was intermittent. Ah they made their way across the sierra nevada over the next couple of days charles stanton fell further and further behind often stumbling into camp hours after the others the group was growing concerned as charles was the only one of them who had crossed the mountains in both directions. If they lost cost him they would have to rely on the two native americans for guidance and they did not speak much english to make matters worse stanton was starting to suffer from snow blindness making it harder and harder for him to follow the footsteps of the others on the morning of december twentieth. Stanton didn't bother author rising from their makeshift campground as the others prepared to leave. Mary and graves saw him sitting nearby calmly puffing on on his pipe. She approached him and asked if he was coming with them. Yes he replied. I am coming soon. Marianne set off with the others. There's leaving stanton to follow at his own pace. Stanton never caught up with them. As the snow shoe group made their way along the sierra nevada patrick breen continued his daily journal back by the lake news travelled slowly between truckee lake and the donner families camp at alder creek milt elliott had left for the donner several days ago to check on them and breen hadn't heard a single word from him since when he arrived at the donners camp milt made a gruesome discovery jacob donner owner was dead he had never shaken the horrible feeling of hopelessness as the snow had set in he ignored his family's attempts to feed him one day he had gone to the table in the center of his tent bowed his head as if in prayer and sat still until he died elisa donner would later write of her uncle not even the needs of his family could rouse him to action he was was utterly dejected and made no effort but tranquility awaited him in depth. The family was shaken by this tragedy george donner donner most of all he watched as his able bodied family members dragged his brother's body out of the tent into the snow unable to assist spam due to his hand injury which had become infected at around the same time a group of three single men living nearby died of starvation dr bachchan as he lay weekly on the floor of his cabin joseph reinhardt call to doris wolfing a woman who had been widowed earlier in the journey and when she came over he confessed to the murder of her husband during desert trek a crime he had blamed on pyatt raiders then dan finally free of his guilt he died as the alder creek camp hope hoped to their losses the forlorn hope was struck by a powerful blizzard the fourteen remaining men and women could barely see anything in front friend of them without stanton they relied exclusively on the lease and salvador to guide them but the to me walks were unable to make out any landmarks through the white curtains surrounding the group. They argued amongst themselves. Bringing the journey to a halt there were almost out of food and had no idea which direction was west the foot and hoof prints they had been following up until this point had vanished beneath the snow. Some some argued. They should return to their families. Marianne graves vehemently opposed this saying she would rather die than watch. Her brother and sister starved starve to death at the lake. Eventually the group had no choice but to press on that same afternoon without any tracks to guide them they. He made a tragic mistake. A low ridge rose above them fearing. It led only higher into the mountains. They skirted it to the left wbt and went downhill. If they had climbed miss ridge they would have found themselves back on the established emigrant road and well on their way to this sutter's fort by following deceptive path downhill. They lead themselves into yet another canyon a funnel for the blizzard. They were caught in starvation struck. The forlorn hope on the night of december twenty first that that night as his companions went without food william etty found a parcel among his supplies it was a half pound of bear meat with a note from his wife wife simply saying your own dear eleanor this morsel kept eddie going a tangible reminder of the wife and child he left by the lake nick but by the morning of december twenty third the party was completely out of food hunger and exhaustion weighed on them as they marched with increasing clumsiness downhill their strength flagged all of them sweating and freezing at the same time a horrible double discussion began with no end in sight. How would they sustain themselves for the rest of their journey to sutter's fort hungered nod at them all all and as far as they knew they were the only hope for their family and friends stuck at the lake. If none of them lived through the journey everyone one would die. Patrick dolan finally spoke up the men should cast lots and whoever lost would sacrifice vice himself to provide meat for the others. The group fiercely debated this morbid suggestion while they all found on the idea horrifying they slowly resign themselves to it's grim practicality. They were starving and had no reason to expect another food source to appear they tore off five strips of paper one for each of the men in the party besides luis and salvador who would not been part of the discussion. The fifth strip was longer than the others and would indicate which of the men would be killed. The men drew do one by one when they compared. The fatal. Long strip was in the hands of patrick dolan. The same man who had suggested did the idea in the first place but before he could process what had just happened. The other men surrounded dolan preventing him from i'm running an unspoken question passed between them who would be the executioner after an interminable moment of staring <music> at each other. The men realized murder was still murder. They could not kill one of their own for food. Turning back back to the path eddie grimly pointed out that one of them was going to die soon anyway on the morning of christmas eve the forlorn hope was struck with an intensely cold rain soaking through their threadbare clothing with some difficulty they built a smoky smoky fire in a snowbank beneath some trees once they succeeded. They realized the fire had been built over a snowy stream. The fire melted through the snow. It's embers plummeting into the river below where they had built the fire. There was now just a hole in the ice looking looking down into freezing waters. It only grew colder as the day wore on by dusk. Franklin graves was shaking heavily. Both both patrick dolan and the twelve year old lemieux will murphy had started crying out in despair most likely suffering from a unique blend of shock hypothermia mia and desperate gnawing hunger that night they managed to build another fire with cotton from harriet hikes cloak and and sparks from the flint lock rifle he carried. It was a welcome sight antonio. The mexican cattle jover crawled over to the firepit and and lay down in its warmth a few hours later his hand fell into the firepit and he did not remove it. He was passed carrying ringer later that night. Franklin graves stopped shivering his breathing gradually becoming more. I shallow eddie told him that he was dying. Franklin didn't seem to care. He called sarah vase dick and mary and graves over over to his side. The two women tried to rub warmth into his limbs but he made no effort to assist them. Franklin told his two daughters that the life of the rest of their family depended on their survival. He told them to do whatever they had to do to survive and instructed them not eat his corpse once he died by eleven pm on christmas eve franklin graves was dead the fire your had gone out and it seemed like the twelve remaining settlers going to freeze to death if they didn't do something soon william eddie had an idea and old frontier trick he had just remembered he suggested everyone lie in a circle with their feet toward the middle then he would completely completely cover them with their blankets forming a small low tent this method trap the body heat of the party under the blankets warming them and protecting checking them from the snow. The group agreed and eddie set about erecting this low tents. They all huddled in the circle. Temporarily safe from the harsh wins wins but with this temporary relief from the cold came a greater awareness of their collective hunger franklin graves his final words hung hung over the forlorn hope ominously a promise of relief that they could not ignore forever when they awoke okay at sunrise on christmas day patrick dolan was gibbering madly he started to thrash yell and suddenly he tried to crawl out into to the blizzard eddie attempted to wrestle him back under the blankets but dolan slipped free crawling out of the shelter as he went. He began stripping his clothes off and charging off into the cold half-naked. Dolan is an early example of what forensic pathologists call paradoxical undressing during the early stages of hypothermia blood vessels shut off to conserve warmth in the core of the body causing numbness numbness in all extremities in the final stages of hypothermia. The vessels open back up causing intense feeling of heat to course throughout the body. Even as the victim freezes no doubt dolan had just reached this stage of hypothermia finally dolan return to the rest of the group group and slid back under the coverlet s- he was dead by late afternoon their campsite became known as the camp of death here here the forlorn hope spent christmas day starving while the bodies of their companions lay nearby christmas smith's day for the truckee lake camp was a gloomy affair for the last few days. Margaret reid had been serving her children a glue like brew made made from boiled ox hides. It was nutritious enough to keep them going tasted horrible christmas dinner in the read half of the cabin was a surprise for all of the children margaret had been saving a few dried apples. A teacup full of white beans a little bit of rice to square inches of bacon and some tripe leftover from the slaughtered oxen. It wasn't much but compared to the boiled oxides they had been eating. It was a veritable feast east in the brain cabin. The exhausted patrick breen recorded extremely difficult to find would uttered our prayers to god this christmas morning. The prospect is appalling but we trust in him in their cabin. Levine murphy and eleanor eddie eddie boiled bones for broth and wants the broth was served. They boiled the bones again and again until they were soft enough to be eaten whole five five miles to the northeast at alder creek. The donners eight bones for christmas dinner as well. George donner did very little to help his family on christmas. The infection from his cut hand had spread halfway up his right arm. The man who had been elected to lead the wagon train was was now virtually an invalid back in the camp of death. The men dragged patrick dolan's body over to where they had laid the frozen remains of franklin graves and antonio though they did not speak openly about it the remaining members of the forlorn hope had decided what they were going to do about their starvation. They had come to the unconscious agreement that they would have to eat their deceased companions. It's on december twenty sixth growing mad with hunger the twelve year old lyme. You'll murphy thrashed wildly attempting to escape the tent. He grabbed at the other's arms bid at them crying. Give me my bone due to his size. He was easily restrained. The others forced him into the center of the tent between their feet his sister sarah foster held his head in her lap throughout the night trying to comfort him at around two a m leme. You'll murphy stopped breathing. They dragged him out of the tent and set him by the other three bodies. The renou only ten ten members of the forlorn hope left when we return the forlorn hope finally makes use use of their new food supply now back to the story december twenty seventh eighteen forty six eleven days days after they set off to bring back help the forlorn hope was down to ten individuals five men and five women. They're guide charles l. Stanton had been lost in the snow for others patrick dolan antonio lemieux murphy and their leader franklin graves had died in the last three days by the time the sun rose that morning. Most of the survivors were ready to eat the dead i i they had to start a fire. William etty set out using another old woodsmen trick to get the fire lit. He poured some black powder onto the tinder hinder with hopes that he could force the damp wood to ignite the gunpowder ignited more strongly than eddie expected burning his face ace and hands finally after gathering enough dry tinder. They were able to get a proper fire going when they realized realized what they're white. Companions were planning on doing luis and salvador moved away from the camp and made their own fire the practice of cannibalism. I'm was unspeakably disgusting to them. When the native americans turned their backs on them the three men j foss dick williams eddie and william foster said about butchering the four bodies there was not much meat to be found on the starved corpses but that did not deter the hungry survivors the aid in separate groups so that no one would have to eat their family or watch someone eat their family. An alarming fact casts this gruesome meal into a different light. They had only gone six days without food. This raises the question. Why were they so quick to turn to cannibalism when they possibly had weeks before they were in danger of starvation. The answer is two-fold first. I they were burning calories at an alarming rate while trudging through the snow with the constant hunger and exhaustion. It certainly must have felt like they were starving starving to death and second. They likely didn't know it was hypothermia. Not starvation that killed their five companions after their initial meal they had to make sure that the rest of the meat was portable and wouldn't go bad as they continued making their way towards california so they cut cut the remaining pieces of their companions into thin strips and stretch them beside the fire close enough to dry but not close enough to cook look. It was a pain staking process that they worked out for two days. They were ready to travel again. On the morning of december twenty ninth. They loaded the dried meat into their packs strapped on their snowshoes and resume their journey. They calculated they had about four days worth of human meat beat in their packs. On the morning of january first. The surviving members of the forlorn hope made it out of the valley that had trapped them breath. Even as they escape the snow they did not feel like rejoicing their stores of meat. Were once again diminished. Some of them resorted to eating the strips of rawhide that held their snowshoes together. Jay haas tick had been lagging behind the rest of them his energy flagging from the unrelenting hunting pace eddie fell in step beside him encouraging him to keep going that evening over the campfire. William foster suggested suggested they kill luis and salvador for food. The native americans were growing weaker by the day refusing to eat the dead eating the to me me walks would be preferable to waiting for jay starve or for one of the women to collapse eddie argued against this and after a tense discussion in the group fell into silence when they awoke the next morning both luis and salvador were gone it was suspected that eddie warn them that they were in danger but it's just as possible that they read the body language of their white companions and fled at the same time time. Many of the party trapped in the late camp. Were growing desperate on january. Fourth margaret read prepared to make her own trip through the mountains since before she left. They ate cash the last of the read family. Dogs virginia read later wrote her cousin mary mary about this traumatic incident. We had to kill little cash. The dog eat him. We ate his head and feet and hyde and everything about about him. Oh my dear cousin. You don't know what trouble is. After the tragic final meal margaret took her daughter virginia nia her cook eliza williams and milt elliott on an expedition through the mountains elisa turned back early intimidated by the a steep mountain climb looming ahead of them at the same time. The remnants of the forlorn hope were growing hungry. J foss dick lagged even further behind the others. If he didn't get food soon they realized he would almost certainly die. William eddie and mary and graves went out ahead of the other six hoping they would find some animals to hunt now that the snow was behind them hours later. Eddie and marianne were delighted to find deer tracks in the cold earth. They followed these until they found the animal that made them. The deer was only about eighty yards ahead of them. Eddie raise the rifle. The gun wavered drop to his side. He he was too weak to aim the heavy weapon but with marianne encouragement he lifted the rifle again this time aiming slightly above the deer here so that his tired arm's would drop the rifle to the proper elevation when he pulled the trigger with this in mind he squeezed and prayed the the weapon fired and the deer left in response it bounded off wounded but still alive eddie and marianne ran after it dropping the useless rifle moments later they caught up with the crippled animal eddie slit throat. They were so famished they they drank the fresh blood gushed from the animal's neck behind them. Jay had collapsed from exhaustion when he heard the shot <music> hurry it pike amanda mccutchen william and sarah foster ran forward to catch up with their hunting party but j and sarah fayza remained behind they couldn't even stand as the day turned into night he lay on the forest floor his breathing growing shallower shallower at around midnight. He died the next morning january sixth sarah stood and follow the others. Yeah she encountered the fosters and her sister marianne who had doubled back to find her when they found out jay had died. The fosters asked asked sarah if they could eat him. Sarah replied distantly you cannot hurt him now and walked on ahead the seven remaining members of the forlorn hope gathered by the fire that night sarah eight what remained of the deer and the others eight what remained of her husband uh the next morning they set off again their strength momentarily returned the seven of them five women to men were a sorry sight by at this point their clothing has been worn ragged and barely hung together exposing their skeletal frames. Their shoes were long gone and they walked barefoot. Through the undergrowth on january eighth milt elliott margaret virginia read stumbled back into the lake camp camp. The snow was too high to make any progress up the mountainside. Things were grim back on truckee. Lake families were growing weaker. Doc patrick breen described how snowbanks made life increasingly difficult for them quote snow higher than the shanti. It must be thirteen. Eighteen feet deep cannot get would this morning. It is a dreadful site for us to look upon between the camps at truckee leg and alder creek six members of the company had died and the threat of starvation loomed constantly over those who still lived they were running out of ox hides leads to eat and bedbugs ravage them whenever they tried to sleep. The stranded families were running out of time their only hope of rescue was was the seven emaciated men and women trudging. They're way above the american river by some accounts. William foster was becoming deranged as the forlorn hope soldiered on according to eddie foster approached him privately and proposed killing amanda mccutchen shen for food eddie protested pointing out that mccutchen was a mother foster then proposed killing sarah vase dick and marianne on both of whom were childless eddie rejected this idea vehemently soon after they started to see bloody footprints in the bird head of them following them they discovered luis and salvador the to native american me walk guides who had abandoned them several days prior according to john sutter's version of events the to me walks were gathering acorns by a small stream. Some others claim they were merely lying by the stream dream rusting they had been living on nuts roots or grubs for the last several weeks having refused to eat human flesh. They were even more emaciated than their former companions. The seven white men and women walked past luis and salvador continuing up the trail. Then and foster took the rifle from eddie and walked back the survivors heard two gunshots backed by the creek one following the other her after the deed was done. The group headed back to where the me walks lay. They stripped the flesh from their bones. They dried what they could. An an eight the organs the next day it started raining. The seven survivors soldiered on leaving the bones and severed heads of louise's lease and salvador behind them some days later. No one knows precisely how long they saw their first sign of civilization. A a native american village the minute tribe were astonished to see seven skeletal figures stagger toward their village pleading for help their children cried in horror and hid there is from these ghastly creatures led the seven survivors into their huts and serve them cakes hoax made from acorn mush despite the welcome sustenance some in the party found the acorn food inedible william etty he wound up brewing tea from fresh grass instead but the others managed to swallow enough food to keep themselves going naidoo guides led them westward s. word from village to village following their own trails. They had almost reached the edges of the sacramento valley. When most of their group found themselves unable to walk at all on january seventeenth saraf ause dick found herself unable to continue like the others her feet were swollen roland bleeding she had developed bleeding gums from scurvy yellowed skin from jaundice and intestinal bleeding her body had reached its absolute limit unable to go any further. Sarah sat down by the trail. Maryanne sarah foster william foster sir and harriet pike joined her. They did not have the strength to take another step and could not even make camp. The six of them were ready to die but william etty kept going bribing his. I do guide with the last of his tobacco. The guy took it and began carrying carrying eddie on the afternoon of january seventeenth eddie and his mighty guide reached a ranch owned by a man named william johnson johnson one of johnson's house guests the fifteen year old harriet richie spotted the two figures coming up from the bear river toward the cabins eddie. He was unable to walk forcing his mind. Do guy to carry him to richie's is he barely looked human when he got up to the door where he looked up into her eyes and said in a voice only a little louder than a whisper bread they took eddie inside and fed him when he told them his companions just up the road they gathered all the food they could and followed eddie's bloody footprints back up the trail to where his companions lay they found them at around midnight so famished they could not even sit up their digestive systems had shrunk so much that even modest portions made them wretch still they begged for more on the morning of january eighteenth eighteenth. All seven survivors were brought back to johnson's ranch where they were given food fresh clothing and blankets as these wretched travelers colors eight they slowly recovered their ability to speak finally they were able to tell the johnsons about their families still trapped by truckee lake the forlorn hope may have successfully reached civilization but there were still almost sixty people trapped in the snow to the east and like the forlorn hope those desperate starving men and women were beginning to look at their neighbors with hungry hungary is thanks for listening to survival next week. The survivors of the forlorn hope and james read attempt to rally rescue parties to save their friends and families. You can find all episodes of survival revival and all other podcast originals for free on spotify. Not only the spotify already have all your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all your favorite podcast originals like survival for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream survival on spotify. Just open the app tap browse and type survival in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and instagram podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Survival was created by max cutler is it production of cutler media and his part of the podcast network. It's produced produced by maxon ron cutler sound designed by andy weights with production assistance by ron shapiro and paul molitor additional production assistance by maggie. Admire and freddie beckley in this episode of survival is written by robert team stra and stars irma blanco tim johnson if you haven't listened yet be sure to check out the podcast original natural disasters it tells the stories of the earth's worst catastrophes acts of nature took countless lives destroyed communities and toppled civilizations pins. We like to think we're prepared for a catastrophe but time and time again mother nature proves us wrong follow natural disasters for free on spotify edify and anywhere you listen to podcasts.

eleanor eddie eddie franklin graves luis truckee lake eddie foster George donner William foster salvador william foster stanton alder creek Margaret reid Doc patrick breen sutter Patrick dolan spotify donner party Marianne graves william etty california
Donner Memorial State Park

Haunted Places

40:43 min | 4 months ago

Donner Memorial State Park

"Due to the graphic nature of this haunted place listener discretion is advised. This episode includes descriptions of starvation and cannibalism is extreme caution for children under thirteen. Hank stood very very still as he raised his polaroid camera. All he needed to do is grab a shot of the deer. But when the cameras clicked the does head jerked up and she bounded off. Hang side yanking the polaroid out of the slot. He waved it around then. Watched the image slowly appear It was just the dears hind legs disappearing into the brush. He and his wife had just moved from the city to the woodsy town of truckee wanting to live more simply and retirement. They deserved it after all they'd worked hard in their lives. It was time to kick back and relax take up. Hobbies hanke chosen nature photography but he was realizing that a polaroid camera was the wrong choice of equipment. It was loud so far he scared away. More animals many captured. Hank lumbered along looking for his next shot. The train ahead was sunny curving around a large rock and into a dense patch of tree. Cover hank reason that senior was maybe a better place to start. You can't scare off at trail. The polaroid shot out of the slot. Hang way did around to hurry. Its development and the picture slowly came into focus. Trees clarified rocks. Details appeared but some mass was clouding up the center of the path. At first he thought he must have put his thumb in front of the lens or something but as the picture became clearer he realized the mass in the trail center wasn't a smudge. It was a figure a woman in a long soaked dress. Her stringy hair hung about her shoulders. Framing gaunt face. Enter wide is looked hungry. Welcome to haunted places. A spotify original from podcast. I'm greg olsen. Every thursday. I take it to the scariest. Last most haunted real places on earth you can find all episodes of haunted places and all of the spotify originals from podcast for free on spotify and every tuesday make sure to check out urban legends. These special episodes of haunted places are available exclusively on spotify this week. We explore the grisly history behind donner memorial state park in truckee california the parks pristine tranquil. Beauty makes it a destination for avid campers hikers. But this is not your average nature filled retreat one of the most unspeakable tragedy so the eighteen hundreds occurred in these majestic mountains. It's the site where a group of pioneers known as the donner party became trapped in prison of ice and were forced to perform unspeakable acts to survive coming up. We'll meet the donors located off interstate. Eighty in california about ten miles from lake. Tahoe donner memorial state. Park is nestled in some of the country's most jaw-dropping landscapes every year thousands of tourists flocked there to enjoy. It's wild beauty. The park contains many trails and emigrant museum and the beautiful donner lake surrounded by towering trees. It might be hard to believe that a place so tranquil busy terminally damned but it is said that the energy of a place even a stunning one can be changed forever by tragedy. And that's exactly what happened to donner memorial state park in the winter of eighteen forty-six the previous spring eighty-seven people from the donner and read families. Embarked on a journey from springfield illinois heading west to california brothers. George and jacob donner hand carefully planned the route with james reid but poor leadership and a series of missteps led the men to make few errors. The i was the decision to take the hastings cutoff and untested shortcut that put the travelers behind schedule in fighting heavy wagons and exhausted animals. Slow them down further by the time they traipse through the sierra nevada's winter at already begun and with it of fatal snowstorm. Thompsons hands trampled. She rang out the rag. The snow she'd melded onto it had been warm just moments ago but the wind had put the fire out now. The cold wet cloth was stinging her fingers still. She squeezed the water into her husband. Georgia's mouth moistening his dry lips but he didn't move he hadn't for days he just lay there chain of obligation fastened to her ankle. Tanzim had been against this journey from the start she'd been happy in illinois they'd be well off with a sprawling home in happy children. She had done a teacher there but he wanted more. He insisted on california and thompson could say nothing. Why are meant to nod politely. Even as they watch their husbands arrogance lead eighty plus souls into health and then a month ago. Hope had come. A rescue group had broken through the snow. Georgia been battling ethan. Dan so she'd sent her children. Were the rescuers to brave the wintry pass and get out of this nightmare. Take the children. She said she'd stay waiting out starvation with him. Because that's what whites were supposed to do. They stood by their husbands even when a doomed them. Now george was dying and she'd be all the whole thing had been selfish of him. But that was george always onto the next thing with no thought for anyone but himself her mouth twisted bitterness. Blame was the only feeling stronger than hunker. The wind shuttered the tent blowing open. It's flab with it. A torrent of snow flurries blue inside outside. Tamsin could see dim sunlight shining on the oppressive white woods. The evergreens were tall thick and laden with snow. Tencent thought that it looked like a cage. If ice she rose slowly to pull the flaps shut then looked at george i g shuttered. Then he lay completely still is is open and unseen. She held her hand under his nostrils. No breath he had died after all that she had nearly missed it. She expected more of a spectacle. As george always liked attention. She should have felt sad but all she felt was cold and relentless throb of hunger swelling her belly and there was no question. The hunger was worse when they arrived in this godforsaken place. The donner reed family spread out through the woods to find shelter from the storm. They found cabins and erected tents hoping to wait out the punishing snow but it never stopped no one had enough stores to last them through winter and when the lake froze the supply of fish disappeared. Thompsons family had rationed well by using our to hinder off the dreadful hunger but others had resorted to other means tamsin had seen the nod remains of corpses in the woods but teeth marks on bomb. Now here she was with no meat but georgia's corpse campaign was horrified to feel her mouth watering. It had been so long since she'd had protein your eyes filled with tears and she clasped a hand to mouth in horror. No george tooker former life from her. She wouldn't let him change her in that way to. She had to get out of here before the last of whoever she had been disappeared. Tamsin gathered some things and set out to the windy snow logged woods. She moved slowly heading west toward the setting sun. She wasn't sure if she was trying to walk her way out or find another family. She just knew she had to go but the all white words quickly turned her around. Everything looked the same. The bright white snow blinded her even in the fading light. She walked for hours until finally she saw site that made her weary hard. Skip with relief. A cabin with smokes weaning out of its chimney. Tens and hurry toward it and knocked. Its door swung open. And a man named lewis keys. Berg hansen new lewis. A funny man always quick with a joke and he looked well. His cheeks held none of the sharp salomon's that hers did thompson slowed. Her approach. is appearance. Bothered her. Why was he so healthy looking. She stumbled almost falling tempting glance back. What tripped her seeing dark. Object stuck out from a snow pile. It was a human leg. Half of one it's flesh had been cut away. Cam stared at it. Dully trying to understand what she was. Seeing this leg had been meddled with it had been carb a cut of meat. She felt something. Grab her hair and younger head back. A searing pain ripped through her scalp. She looked up to see. Louis nays is cracked dry. Lips surrounded rows of steamed brown. Teeth is is for desperate. Does he whispered that he was sorry. Dear lord forgive him he cried kempson struggled but her frail body was too weak. She pleaded telling louis that there was a body not so far from here george. He was already dead. She said take him instead. Lewis wasn't listening is arm trembled. Se lifted an axe. She closed her eyes trying to bring herself far away from the snowy. Hell to a place you last new joy. She thought children playing outside in illinois. They're happy faces turned up to the warm sun waving to her as she watched and then she heard the swish of the axe fly through the air. History sees tamsin donner as a hero. She sent her children ahead. With one of the first rescue parties not broken through the snow and therefore ensured their survival. She stayed behind dutifully attending to her. Dying husband tragically. Her body was never found. Perhaps because it was slowly digesting in the belly of one of the donner party survivors lewis case berg. He's berger admitted to eating hamson but denied killing her mikey's burg's account temps and ride that his cap and after george died but passed away in her sleep. It was only then that he used her body to stave off his hunger. According to rescue thomas fallon keys. Berg described your flesh as the best ever tasted. The donna reed family spent five months in the snow of the eighty-seven travelers who went into the mountain. Only about half come out. Those who survived live down the sparse provision. They brought with them. When those were gone they turn to the livestock and then their family pets until they had nothing to fill their parties but the corpses of their own coming up just because the park is closed. Doesn't mean you're alone listeners. looking for something. A little spooky to dig into. Ben check out the spotify. Original podcast superstitions every wednesday explore the varying beliefs people around the world fear and follow in this eerie new series. Each week step inside stories that illustrate the horror weirdness and truth behind humanity's trainers codes of conduct. Cats represent witchcraft. What's the point of carrying a rabbit's foot around with you. And how come. Certain film seemed cursed and others don't each new episode of superstitions presents. A story that unlock the mysteries of unorthodox traditions and surreal phenomenon. They may seem mystical or illogical or completely insane. But then again do they follow the podcast series superstitions. Freon spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Now back to the story. In april eighteen forty seven the california star printed an article that would shock the world. It was an account from donner party. Rescuer thomas fallon that spoke of starving survivors consuming brains and detailed grisly scenes of half eaten corpses of men women and children. The article described children eating parents and mothers eating husbands. It went so far as to insist that went offered food. Some of the survivors turned it away. Preferring their newfound meat source survivors such as thames. Donner's daughter elisa. We're disgusted by the article and called it. Sensationalist and misleading other survivors like twelve year old. Patty read request to assert that their family were the only ones who managed to survive without resorting to cannibalism. The stars article was certainly appalling but the donner party story didn't need exaggeration to stand the test of time to be starved to the point of cannibalism must horrific enough to keep even the dirty minds up at night bernie was hungry and board. He longed to be in his living room playing super mario brothers with a beer in hand but he just started his ranger shift so he decided to entertain himself by annoying his partner david. The guy was meditating on the floor of the ranger station. Which bernie found just flat out weird. He started cracking. Kindling sticks to disrupt david's concentration but found it frustrating. When he didn't even wince bernie was only here because he hadn't been ready to go to college. He decided to take a gap year. He needed the break. He deserved the break but his mom said he couldn't just wallo about her house playing and sixty four. He had to get a job. So here was the only place that would take him. It wasn't ideal for bernie. The woods creeped out. No donner memorial. State park creeped out. How could it not people were like eating here. The thought made him glance. The stations tiny single window at the darkening sky night had fallen quickly from his vantage point. Only could see was the park visitor center and woods woods as far as the eye could see as the sun dwindled. The trees looked like a blanket of darkness. Lying beneath the bright expense of sky he shivered bernie reach toward the rooms. Tiny fireplace crabbing another kennelling stick. Perhaps it'd be cracked bigger one. David would finally notice bernie grin david. Frown this was their first weekend. Working together and bernie didn't really care for david. David was all hippy. Dippy one with nature all that. David wanted to be here birdie crack to stick again. David's is finally flew open and he gave an exasperated. Dude bernie shrugged and apologized. But he couldn't help feeling smug but soon bernie stomach growled loudly. He always his snacks right when he got on shift and right around seven pm. He started to get hungry again. Maybe he'd have to go to the vending machine. Who is he kidding. Of course he'd go to. The vending machine bernie glared at david. Has the guy started humming. No way bernie jumped to his feet and grabbed the radio. She told david he was going to get a snack. Taking care not to ask if david wanted anything. Moments later bernie stood in front of the colorful rows of in candy debating snickers or twizzlers or rad. They had fun dip although maybe he should be good and get pretzels. He'd put on some weight since he started here. Is radio buzzed. Bernie grab the receiver from his belt. It was jessica another ranger. She told them someone needed to go. Clean the pioneer monument. There's graffiti on. It bernie groaned. If he had to clean up one more nirvana tag. he'd lose it. He got david to to it so he could have the ranger station to himself to eat. Pretzels piece. The thought made him grin. Alright maybe he'd get the fun dip. This night had really turned around. He should treat himself. But when bernie stuck his head back in the station. David ignored him like completely. He wouldn't even open his eyes bernie again but david's humming grew louder drowning. Burning out. bernie seethed is radio. Crackled again and jessica's voice asked bernie if he was there yet bernie took a calming breath and answered it. Be right there. He said through gritted teeth. Bernie stomped down the pathway. That led to the memorial. It was dark but the sky wasn't fully black yet. It's still had that bluish hue from the dusk last glow. He slogged a bucket of water. A rag and a model of graffiti remover. The park had closed a few hours ago. Giving the place an abandoned feeling as bernie want a light breeze the trees around him creating a whispering sound he looked up at the towering pines high above him. He could see the very tip of an impressive mountains in the distance. Okay it was pretty here. It wasn't such a bad gig. Sometimes the wind stopped but bernie could still hear a rustling. He stared up at the trees and confusion and cocked his head. It sounded almost like crying. The balmy evening air. Suddenly felt cold is arms recovered in goosebumps but he brushed off. The monument with graffiti stood at the end of paved pathway surrounded by a wide circle. Three bronze figures sat atop a man woman and child. The man shielded his is acid bravely looking towards the future but the woman cowered behind him with the baby in her arms and a terrified child at her heels bernie way dispatched light at its base. Take the children was written in red. Paint bernie shivered cheese. The graffiti looked kind of like blood. He sprayed with graffiti remover and started. Scrubbing a sobbing. Sound may bernie whitman round. But there was no one him. It was positive heard someone crying but the forest was silent. Pin drop silent. The fresh mountain air suddenly felt heavy. Almost a birdie stood slowly is hands shaking. A glance at the graffiti told him he wasn't even halfway done but he suddenly wanted to be back at the station with david and his stupid humming. Bernie stiffened was bernie whipped around expecting to see david instead. A shivering woman stood in front of the monument for clothes were soaked or lower lip quivered stringy hair longer shoulders. She yelled desperately to him asking if he would take her children. Ernie froze confused. Had this mom drawn the monument. She looked totally. Unhinged is anxiety pricked. She stood there staring. He wasn't paid enough to handle crazies. He grabbed his radio but when he looked up the woman had inexplicably moved ten feet and was standing directly in front of him. Her bloodshot eyes peered earnestly into his bernie could feel the sadness coming off of her in waves like a static energy prickly skin and pat smell rancid and rotten gagged backing away. The woman grabbed his wrist asking again to please. Please take the children bernie touches arm from our but our grip was unrelenting. Suddenly his stomach growl. The women's base immediately filled with pity. She launched forward her arms outstretched to wrap bernie in a tight embrace. She whispered that she was hungry. To bernie filter bony arms encircle him. His heart pounded as their frail. Form gripped him tighter and tighter until he couldn't breathe he gasping for air trying to push her off but her hold strengthened wrapping around him like a cage of bones and then without warning she released him bernie staggered backwards and ran is moved as fast as they could. His chest burned. Finally he reached the ranger station door but before he flew inside he looked back. He was certain that he'd see the strange corpse. Woman standing there watching him but all he saw was the pioneer monument out against the night sky. The bronze people that sat. It's tom stared down at him. It might have been a trick of the darkness but he was sure that the woman no longer cowered behind the man instead she stood straight beside him pointing in the opposite direction as if begging him to go back the way aka the pioneer monument honors the people who lost their lives in the winter of eighteen forty seven. It's a bronze statue standing at twenty two feet tall to reflect the height of the snowfall. Bet trap the daughter party in an icy hell. Visitors to donner lake claimed that the ghostly image of a woman in nineteenth century clothing appeared in some of their vacation photos. Many believed this is thompson. Donner doomed to forever roam the woods of her demise. Complaints of overwhelming sadness and chills are common near the monument. This could be explained easily enough walking around the park where so many lost their lives in such a horrific way no doubt gives most people chills but electro magnetic field detectors a tool ghost. Tetris used to detect spirits have had abnormally high readings at pioneer rock and at the settlers former campsites even after one hundred fifty years later it seems the tormented souls of daughter. Lakes woods. still want us to know the horrible story of what happened there coming up a rest stop. Isn't his arrest now back to the story. History looks at the donner party with a mix of sympathy and discussed. We can't imagine the horrible dilemma parents had to face. They could either let their children starve or feed them. The only sustenance available the bodies of their fallen friends and relatives but those who survived were doomed to live out their days taste of human flesh on their tongues. They are deserving of sympathy. But that doesn't mean they're all without blame. Jacob george donner and james reads arrogance led their families into a nightmare. The donner party's first. Mistake started with a book. The emigrant's guide to oregon and california written by lansford hastings. The guide references a route called the hastings cutoff claiming that it would save travelers. At least three hundred miles on the california trail but hastings had never attended the route himself seasoned traveler james claiming a friend of james reid warned read an untraversed cut off but his warnings fell on deaf ears. It may have been a more direct route. But a combination of the groups heavy wagons untravelled terrain and poor trail. Markings put the donner party. More than a month behind schedule. Additionally then lead their oxen grays for days before attempting to pass through the sierras pushing them even further into the depths of winter by the time they tracked through. The mountains of vicious snowstorm was ready to bear down on them. The donner party's dead. Haunt the grounds of donner memorial state park but perhaps what haunts those who hear their tail is knowing it could have been avoided as soon as something. Romantic came on kahlil leaned over from the passenger seat to change the radio station. She hated when andy head romance on the mind. It made them kind of touchy soon. She found peppy. Top forty jam perfect. She glanced and handy behind the wheel. He hadn't noticed he was too busy inspecting his hair in the rear view then he saw her looking and away kayla looked away out the window ignoring him. The imposing pines of the sierra nevada mountains blue by the velvety midnight sky above it made everything seems so big. Portland was nutri but this was a whole different experience. The grandeur the landscape small insignificant. Just like andy. She cracked the window butting the fresh cool air hitter in the face caitlyn. Andy had been together since college. Same freshman dorm. Same friend group same city after college. Same apartment. same same same but somehow she just couldn't end it each time. She got the courage to break things off. He'd managed to talk her out of it. They're destined for greatness. He'd say with a wink and then she'd wonder how she could have doubted it. She think about dumb she for not seeing it until the past and they fell into their routine of the same andy telling her what to do and kayla nodding along like he knew everything and now here they were on their way to lake tahoe to spend time with their group of friends friends who win off. About what a great couple they were while landy soaked up the attention like their relationship was his accomplishment out. The window sign announced their impending pass. Donner memorial state park. She'd forgotten they'd be passing it. She pointed until dante they were and donner party. Land andy said oh. Yeah but kayla could tell he didn't know what it meant when in doubt and he always said he knew even when he didn't. She filled him in telling him. A bunch of pioneers got stranded here in the winter and had to eat each other. She'd written an article about it. She reminded him manifest destiny today. It was about how we always think we deserve better for ourselves. She said kayla. Stop talking to consider the article. It had proposed that the manifest destiny of yesteryear is the white privilege entitlement of today. It might seem like aspiration but without humility. it can lead you into ruin. The article had been great. But andy hadn't read it. He said he'd get to it but never had he was so busy. He claimed not so busy that he couldn't spend hours online looking for the perfect pair of shoes. Though andy quickly change the subject before she had a chance to go on they should make a pitstop. He said he had to go for like an hour. Kayla side andy hated talking about things. He didn't know about the parked at the donner parks. Visitor center and hop dowd came the looked around uneasily. Writing about the donner party. Was one thing standing. The garonne where they died was another. She could hear the faint zooming of the highway not far away but the thick woods surrounding the center muffled it like a cold dark blanket. She shivered if she told anti at gave the creeps. He'd that over exaggerated pitying look and teller. He protect her. She hated that. Kayla's stepped into the deserted restroom. She was surprised. The visitor center even had the bathrooms open. She walked into a stall shut. The door kayla froze. Someone else had just come in. She flushed and stepped out but there was no there. She looked under the stalls for a pair of feet but she didn't see any. She frowned little nervous. She was sure she heard someone. She washed her hands drawing them on her shirt and she hustled for the door but when she stepped out into the cold blustery night the ground was covered in snow the evergreens around the visitor center were laden down. Drifts fell knocked away by the wind. She stopped confused. She hadn't been in there that long. Not long enough entire snowfall. Jean jacket was no match for the colder weather. She shivered ten. Turn toward the car but it was gone. The whole parking lot was gone. Kayla's shook her head wondering if she'd gotten turned around inside and came out of different door. She looked back at the visitor center but that was gone to. She was surrounded by nothing but deep endless woods kayla called out to andy but the only thing that answered her was the wailing wind. Everything looked the same just white snowy freezing through the trees. She caught a site of a faint glow a campfire. She hurried toward it. Her mind racing. What happened could have been drawn. But she didn't remember feeling ill. Kandla stepped into the clearing. It was empty for the fire. The trees that surrounded the space glows orange names. A movement caught her eye and one of the far trees. A pair of dirty hands appeared gripping the trunk like someone was hugging the tree from behind k. Like gasped and backed away. More hands appeared around. the tree. cited kayla turned to see that all the trees in the clearing had disembodied arms wrapped around their trunks arms that were slowly followed by faces peering out at her their sharp cheekbones and pale skin looked at her hungrily as they stepped out from behind the trees they were old clothes really old killer spiking citing her stomach the way they were all staring at her made her skin crawl. She told herself not to panic. It was just some weird reenactment probably but no one said a word weren't they speaking kayla's stammered that she was looking for the visitor center. She somehow lost a man stepped forward. His cheeks looked almost hollow. His mouth opens slowly revealing blackened stained teeth. He grabbed her wrist and pulls her toward the fire. She screamed and fell into the snow kicking at him frantically then. She felt his quick release and another hand tickets. Place keila screamed again but once you looked up she was staring at a woman her long stringy hair frame to face that once might have been pretty but had been badly marred by grief the woman looked angrily at the man who grabbed kayla muttering under her breath that women are always stuck following their men then she looked at kayla. Her gaunt face almost sympathetic. She was as she told kayla to go and she said she hoped kayla stay with him. Kayla was hundred feet in an instant. She ran through the snow branches. Twitter face at your breath came out in hot misty clouds. Then her feet hit. Something solid concrete. Bright lights suddenly blinded her and she shielded her is. She was standing on a road. A car was idling on its shoulder. Kayla's dared added dazed. Andy poked his head out of the driver's window angry and asked where she'd been kayla realized. The woman's words still rattled around in her mind. She called out to andy to say she wasn't going to tahoe. She wasn't going anywhere with him again. The donner party never expected tragedy to befall them when they set out on their journey across. The american west believed that they were exceptional. Part of the nineteenth century movement called manifest destiny pioneers trail-blazing territory untouched by civilized man. In truth they were ambitious but foolish the supposed virgin land they traversed on their journey had been inhabited by native americans for generations before the donners set foot on a trail but to the donners the native people of the american west. We're not people at all. And it was this dehumanisation of the tribes. They encountered that ultimately contributed to their demise. According to some accounts the wash show people who live near the nevada california where the donner party was. Trapped approached the honors with food but the family shot back at the tribe even as they lay dying and the snow. The donner party story warns us against arrogance and ignorance. A group of families dreamed of a better life but their overconfidence and lack of regard for the people and advice of those before them lead them to a horrific end it is said that history is often doomed to repeat itself. We struggle with the sins of the past ignoring them rather than learning them. But if we listen to nothing else perhaps the words survivor. Patty read can stick with us. Remember never take no cutoffs and hurry along as fast as you can. Thanks again for tuning into haunted places. We'll be back on thursday with a new episode and don't forget to come back on tuesday for urban legends series available. Only on spotify you can find more episodes of haunted places and all other spotify originals from has for free on spotify. I'll see you next time. Haunted places is a spotify original. From podcast executive producers include max and ron cutler sound designed by russell nash with production assistance by ron shapiro. Carl madden and aaron larson. This episode apponted places was written by kate. Murdoch with writing assistance by alex garland fact checking by cheyenne lopez and researched by adriana gomez. And mickey taylor. I'm greg pulsing bad omens good fortune. Pure luck take a closer look at what you believe in and follow the spotify or original podcast superstitions new episodes air weekly every wednesday. Listen freons modify or wherever you get your podcasts.

bernie donner party donner memorial state park david george polaroid california thomas fallon james reid truckee kayla Tamsin hanke Tahoe donner memorial jacob donner Hank donner lake illinois Tanzim David
Annabel Crabb reviews the 'women's budget'

The Signal

17:11 min | 2 d ago

Annabel Crabb reviews the 'women's budget'

"This is an abc podcast. Would you mind introducing yourself worse. Yeah i'm sorry. Put some way here to strategic trains of thought at once my name remains will be until i am getting. Save that from being really talk so it's federal budget week this week and as we said on the podcast on tuesday night. There is a lot of money being sloshed around on things like aged care reform childcare subsidies disability support. And if you listen to the government's loud and clear messaging a key beneficiary of that spending is the half the population we call women. I'm steven smiley. And i managed level up and today on the signal. Was this really a women's budget and if so what do women actually get out of it. All right Notebook in hand hand ready. I am ready now. Thank you are. You took the liberty of writing government a new slogan for the twenty twenty one budget that encapsulates. It well was just looking through the budget. It's actually it is actually a document. I mean it's laid out like a book. There's there's multiple sections of it and they put out all of these press racism little pamphlets with pictures and i just noticed that they were just women in all the pictures this year lead. Paint a bit like. Maybe we did mess things up a bit last time. So this women in biz and opening up shops and kind of tapping away at computers and case studies alike. Well leslie is a landscape. Gardener and her husband does something else. Don't we really interested in leslie like this about story. Yeah hardly it is because the government's been absolutely kicked around in the last few months not only about the blokhin is at the last budget but also about the treatment of women in the parliament found up dreadful things about what's happening to school. Goes you know like a lot of female anger around off. You picked it up. Obviously has filtered through trance minister. Simon birmingham was awful. Nobody warning what will the spending for would be happening if the government hadn't got into all this trouble in the last few months around gender issues and he's like yes. The government is making much of the measures that set aside for women in the budget. If it hadn't been for the rape allegations here at parliament house in the spotlight on poor treatment of women. more broadly across the community these announcements beheading. They certainly would be thinking. That is not true but anyways been sometimes just to make the best of it so looking through this budget i was just laughing to myself at all the ladies and i thought well that this could. The subtitle is budget. Could be put a bird on that. I am shivers. I'm lisa everson birds on things today. We're going go to a store and mississippi avenue. Nothing burns on it. But you know we're gonna do. We're burns on things. Get pretty thank you bird on it. 'cause he even when the treasure was talking last not being asked about. You know who's going to benefit from a one of the things. I've done which is to extend the lower and middle income tax offset which was supposed to be a temporary thing like hold the leamington to make it sound more tasty but it is actually a pretty good for low and middle income. Earners said he said all this is going to be a great assistance to ordinary tradie and the truckee. And i'm thinking oh might come on now like the teacher. That's got some good work for the real beneficiaries of the tax cuts into knots. Budget a low and middle income. Earners there the tradie in the truckee and the teacher in the news. Okay so the message being shouted from the rooftops is that this federal budget focuses on women and like annabel says the timing on the back of several tumultuous months of allegations of sexism and sex crimes perpetrated by mail government. Staffers are. mp's on women is unlikely to be a coincidence. Whatever members of the cabinet publicly saying but another point that annabel makes is that this budget is also a pretty dramatic shift in focus and tone from the previous one which was widely regarded as being much more geared towards helping men through the clothed recession. This budget obviously was saying by the government and a lot of people watching on as an opportunity to repair its relationship or at least its image. We've women story perhaps worth a look at where women were coming into this budget starting with the lost budget as a matter of contrast. What was the picture like for women. Six months ago when the government handed down its pandemic delayed budget in the highly unusual month of october. That was only six months to so many women in australia. Had kind of like a bad time during the pandemic because women lost their jobs at a greater rights industries in which women are commonly employed hit very hard and yet also picked up hates of unpaid work at the same time so very very tired and woman By the end last and when we picked up the budget there was a huge amount of spending. And that's a good thing you know. The government had to do that but a lot of it was directed towards industries that Ten more employments a lot of spending for infrastructure road-building manufacturing apprenticeship in the And so on and the more feminized industries like the care and service. Industries didn't really get as much of a looking now the government for a lot of criticism about that ago. And you remember abrasive ministers up to say what women like roads to you know we drive on rose. Roads can take advantage of driving on the new infrastructure and writes. I love it right but the issue is what you're spending in a budget. You're not just ideally. If you spend the stimulus money you're not just creating a job to somebody. He doing that job. Then create something that's useful spills or polls money back into the economy and so on so and the issue was that women were really being included in the same way. This budget is about as close as you. Come to a liberal apology night. So if we take government at its word there is quite a bit in the budget for women literally everything that was asked for but a lot more than last time with the caveat that a lot of this is generalized spending that happens to skew towards women when we sold the budget six months ago. They had this women's economic security statement. But it wasn't in the main bit of the budget and check. They got to print it out and had to be sort of run off on a fighter copy and there wasn't much it amounted to. I think two hundred and fifty million dollars in specific measures. Which wasn't all that much this time around. It's a lovely big glossy thing. Put lots of work into it. It's just long. It's got three and a half billion dollars of spending in it and so there's that you know that sort of put some work into all these measures as will the women's issues security as spend in that statement is about one point. Seven billion dollars is the childcare spending does knowing because i don't ever understand why childcare is badged as well. This is for women because commonly children have other parents apart from others. But that's probably a long time for another day. The truth is that yes what you pay people to look. After children you are liberating those parents dough and be useful economic units in the economy. Say credit job in childcare it may create another one because that parent is then free to go often participate in the economy. So it's win win. In fact the government said last night that the one point seven billion dollars childcare they recoup one point five billion dollars of it in increased economic activity just from the child-care the other the the sort of badged as women's spending was later women's safety Awesome which makes it sound like we understand the triage and swimming safety items. There's about three hundred million. I think really good spending on returning funding to women's legal services and basically giving women better support. I'm what niagara attempting to extract themselves from violent relationships and better support for custody arrangements handovers and so on. I want to hear too much detail. But it's about dollars that is targeted towards women's safety programs which is very well. Can you broadly the reason. Why this is. You know a more friendly with two women budgets than the one. We saw Six months ago is that the industries that it supports the spending of billion dollar Commitments actually includes industries that work in the big age. Care package for instance which is seventeen billion dollars. Well that is all about women because women make up two thirds of the h k population and they are ninety percent of the staff who work in the care industry in both residential and homecare so those workers women now package. I think doesn't go far enough. It doesn't really improve actively the working conditions of those women that will create more jobs. But i think one of the things that we really learned in the pandemic is how much we rely on people who aren't paid very much to support us and keep the keep how society ticking anyway. My budget is perfect. And that's certainly a great big of spending on h. Care the childcare spent two again is a workforce that is full of women and on top of that. There's also the increase to job seeker. Which as you've been pointing out is something that affects women. More than men to job. Seeker is a course. This massively vexed. I an issue that we spent a lot of time talking about even in the years leading up to the pandemic job seeker is incredibly small amount of money to live on during the pandemic of course we had a huge increase and it made a massive difference to people's lives. Now it's being discontinued and now the government's final position is that it will increase jobs by fifty dollars a four not. We need to ensure that we have a system is fair and sustainable the government announcing job saket will rise by twenty five dollars a week taking the total weekly payments to around three hundred seven dollars. Now that in itself is a hugely expensive thing to do and if you look at their expenditure measures in the budget that is the most expensive one. It's like ten billion dollars just to make that not super huge increase. It would barely mentioned in in this. Actually the treasurer has said very little about. That's because his odd that kane on giving more money to unemployed people and the vote is from the other parties. Think that it's absolutely not enough so this is no one loves that. Let's that all right. It's a lot about one is really happy with that site. Just doesn't really mention it. But i think they were unable to just leave job seeker where it is because it's so historically low and even businesses need to get some money so just to go through all of that again. There's the three billion dollar. Women's economic security funding of which one point seven billion dollars is a new package of childcare. Subsidies that starts next year. There's also another billion dollars for domestic and sexual violence prevention support for women fleeing violent relationships and women's legal services and there's also truckloads of new money for industries that disproportionately employ or support women namely childcare and aged care industries as well as that modest boost to jobs they got previously called news dot which more women rely on than right and annabel says on top of all that the government does also seem to be doing a better job of talking about women to for what that's worth to have more women in cabinet right luckily those roles to put women in the portfolio titles of things. I mean language matters like when you make a little memo to yourself to think this main for women than it is a useful thing to do. And i think it's something that they really didn't do enough six months ago and they've done a better job of it in this new budget more perfect job but a job. Okay so in terms of this budget as a budget. It's aiming to do. Many things been in so far as it was designed to perhaps convince women that the government cared more about them and the safety in their economic security than previously. They may have imagined particularly in light of the fact that this is an for all intents and purposes likely an election budget. Did it do the trick. Look if you have a look for all the research about what women are. After from their political leadership they want money spent on stuff like age cap on stuff like mental health and there is spending in this budget for those things. I looked at the kind of top ten expenditures of the last budget. The expenditures of this budget. This top ten is top. Bottom is job. Seca number two and three is aged care. Residential in homecare number four is infrastructure. Number five is apprenticeship that mental health vaccines than child cat rights. I'd like to me that looks like more of a lady friendly spread than the top ten. From last time which was job keeper infrastructure job mak- handing out checks road safety mode manufacturing and apprenticeship. So that to me. Is the shift in this budget. That is not to say that. This is a sole lady affair. It is not is budget while far from perfect. Clearly has you know it's got the memo to a certain degree that is a signal for today to raise. The email is the signal at abc dot net dot edu. And we'll be back tomorrow. We'll catch then. You've been listening to an abc. Podcast discover more great abc. Podcasts live radio and exclusives on the abc listen app.

government steven smiley blokhin annabel Simon birmingham lisa everson leslie parliament house leamington truckee Gardener abc Earners parliament cabinet saket
Hard Factor 7.5.19: Whats Up With Hunter Biden?, Desert Island of Famous Americans & Best Inventions, Interview With Phil Grucci of Fireworks by Grucci

Hard Factor

36:07 min | 2 years ago

Hard Factor 7.5.19: Whats Up With Hunter Biden?, Desert Island of Famous Americans & Best Inventions, Interview With Phil Grucci of Fireworks by Grucci

"Would it is somewhat joe man randy savage this factor in new rules no one does it better right now yeah pretty tough the better we still don't tell me something right down murder rate mumbling we own a a bar you're welcome back to another episode of hard factored it's friday july fifth and we hope you had an amazing fourth of july here's what we did rashly taping this on the night of the third so you could imagine that we did these things extremely drunkenly yesterday on the fourth i took a train scream scream was wasn't bad for us because we're not hung over yet whereabouts of going under right yeah we do recording this night a third because there's no way we could possibly give you a taping the night of the fourth 'em yeah we'll be a little tough yeah most shows most shows didn't do anything this week so we did for shows yeah yeah so i enjoy this one if you're working working today sorry but hopefully there's getting help and you get through hangover okay for the fourth what i did was i took an amtrak train from reno truckee which is about an hour ride each direction so my wife and i could just get hammered on the train inherited the bars and tracking it never happened drive so that ran order truckee sounds like some people that's like the last resort trip oh yeah yeah yeah there's there's been ambulances called the one of the two nations simply quite a time people don't come back from that trip it's the longest beautiful river the rocky river like a river that comes off the top of the water is crystal clear it's gonna be fucking awesome it was a good fit right right would you guys do a i went to a lake house with hard factor pat and gave everyone crypto that's right right you what so they're actually i a i took the little guy down the fireworks a i you know i'm leaving tomorrow offer a long trip so i basically got my shit ready 'cause i work 'em back over jenny i working for to yeah so but a took took a look at it fireworks damn well hopefully nobody nobody's friend lost their dog it the fireworks like pat marketed me awhile back really hopefully nobody's friend lost their dog and then skipped out on part of searching for that dog because he was coming down from mali trip and it's just a quitter in general because that would be a real shame if that happened anybody on the fourth of july and hopefully that happened i didn't quit on the search right oh yeah must have been else involved in that story okay stories of the day this is what we're doing today first offer gonna kick it off with a story about hunter biden he gave an interview to the new yorker recently end if you know anything about hunter biden it's gonna be interesting reid so yeah it's not gonna help you're hanging over if you know anything about hunter biden this is not like a fun story that he's been a nightmare where you are is there right now sure i gotta interview with the phil grucci of a fireworks by grucci who provided many of the fireworks the dc celebration this year the hotly contested trump's celebration yeah hopefully everything went fine at that celebration i'm sure it did an interview is awesome so dona yes everything went find out that good job supplying the fireworks grucci yep and then finally we're gonna play a game of desert island where you could only take one famous american and one american invention with utility island it's gonna get contentious pressure yeah i've got i've got a great combination i don't think he goes you gotta beat it will see you are good games but i think i've got a couple of good combo's to yeah it's like wessels like born plan does not know what's getting a hunter biden okay hunter biden is joe biden's only living son i you know his others on both died a so he recently gave an interview to the new yorker to try and get a head of all the embarrassing things that will be coming out about him as the election process moves on and i'm not sure that this was a great decision 'cause before i give you the details what do you guys think about like a guy like hunter biden preempted all idling yeah i mean you gotta get ahead of it but i knew some of the hunter biden stuff so i know it's bad like the the the brought the dead brother wife thing is just be absolute most despicable thing of all time it's like yeah he's got a lot of other bad shit too but just that alone right puts him in like the bottom one percent of human beings have ever existed there is no explanation for that i will be like oh that makes sense because he had a family that he left read a l o you gotta you gotta get in there so so so here here's how they interview unfolded a hunter told the new new yorker all about his addiction issues with drugs and alcohol which he's a heavy drinker a done drugs a lot of i guess he even told them he tried crack once but then it didn't have much of an effect on him classical on such bullshit yeah you got fucked up and he loved it right it's so weird 'cause if crack has no effect on you that sounds like something something a current crackhead would say like right like you're currently on crack the only reason i could think of you saying the crack coming from the guy that shacked up with his brother's wife it had no effect on it just it just doesn't wanna sound like a fucking more of a drug adequate i rang like ten times yeah by being like actually i tried it and it was fantastic actually did a bunch more times and i'm not gonna tell you about because it was so awesome but i'm gonna say it didn't affect me so i don't see my my what's the what's the benefit of telling somebody i tried this drug but it had no effect on me it's fucking bullshit if you've done any hard drugs you know they all have a serious effect on you yeah it's like saying i had gay sex but i'm not gay and that's what do you think he is hunter s thompson lives the same first name it's a strange moved to say the smoke crack but it had no effect on you on anyways he also talked about how he's his dad's quote unquote security blanket that no idea whether that means that's bad news that's a bad security by that turns to me forever they had numbers rock basically he is his explanation of that with like i don't tell people what to do on the campaign trail but when we go to the bus i tell my dad the closed his eyes and i can say things others can't a yeah yeah all right biden and it's the stuff is on nightmare a nightmare the wholesale relationships a nightmare he's a nightmare how did how did joe biden get security clearance with the sun like i know he went on from that security blanket thing just to to brag about how he pleaded with his dad joe biden publicly supporting him with getting with his late brother bose ex wife which is what we talked about earlier is is rather hartselle his brother both pass away and within a year hunter got with his ex wife howley a but he had the divorce his own wife kathleen do that so right any at and as kids which means the whole shit like that correct both both and yet they're both sets a kid that he was not only it wasn't covered in my neighbor's wife he was covering my brother's wife right ready entire time he became uncle daddy oncle daddy exactly yeah 'em understandably bowl is more than willing to talk about how he pleaded with joe to come out publicly which joe did in support bode well no no hunter hunter that right yeah right right right alerts are hunter was was was happy to talk to the new yorker about pleading with joe to support the relationship which he did he publicly stated that he supported the two of them getting together 'em but obviously nobody else in the family was willing to talk to the new yorker about it nobody else involved so man they all think it's insane that's like the a walk the line movie the the the joker movie with john c reilly with a dad like wrong son died you know what i mean at joe's got i mean like he's he's gotta be like a white knuckling it the whole time hoping nobody talks about hunter to like i don't know you think trump might bring that up every china's phone rings and it's either hunter another weiner number he doesn't know he's like oh mhm the the decision making process and that families a little questionable what do you think what do you think rocket said to joe about hunter drop now joe joe i think this is bob i'm not a good idea well yeah i mean like it it it is kind of an indictment like isn't it kind of hard to win win owner like a very public election like the presidency when you you know i mean i guess if you can't be all joe biden fault but at the same i'm not out of a lot of father was you know i think that joe biden an impossible situation i think that it's it's almost admiral that he is still standing by him with all this like you know you know you stay in baseball golden state and busy right mind off all but it can't help him out in terms of running for president i mean it it's a it's a decent father move just stick next year shit had some i guess but it yeah but i mean it is it i think people eventually will question like well he re even though it's not his fault at all but like he raised him so he raised him incorrectly and over again i'm not a scientist er doctor but i i imagine the the sperm the egg creation of a child is like one and a trillion and he just was the absolute worst possible combination of that right like yeah it's like the beavis and butthead animation when when he had gotten to be exactly like any any other sperm that got better child and how he's not fucking his brother's wife like any like yeah okay guys that's before you heard this last one hunter has already broken up with halley bulls widow 'em and then he got married to new girl who looks about half his age after a week of dating her cousin in week one week 'em and then a joe thank the new young lady saying thank you for letting my son a have the chance loving again mhm so wow so i don't know joe says sipping the kool aid a little bit too much on i don't think he's gonna even though i don't i don't think he could aviators way out of this one na in a hunter has been to rehab eleven eleven times since two thousand three yeah i mean it's tough i mean you know having a kid you love them more than anything in the world and matter i mean it's hard to just get we're not gonna shit head they are right it's impossible so i i feel for the guy but i mean it it's not gonna be such a public things yeah what do you think's worse the having the sun that is like a despicable human being or having the father 'cause you on musk is in like the reverse scenario where his dad is just like the most suspect oh definitely easier fathered it'd be the scott yeah yes sir yes sir well you on a has gone after his father so right yeah so friendly reminder no big deal i taking it to the internet most comments rather like leave the porter biden's alone or l o l look at the biden but not this guy aaron blackford he says not near the money but i asked my wife within the first week of meeting go ahead beat me down sheer i didn't have any real money or chance of inheritance other way we we did great things and didn't need help after or before we she did finally married me stuff happen didn't work i don't understand any of this he wasn't the same situation and then i walked exactly what you're talking about now he's saying he like go go ahead and judging but he's been hunter biden's used before of marrying somebody within a week i think he missed a few like hunter biden dui and stuff to in that store oh yeah no no no this isn't an extensive again this is just what you wanna talk about what the new yorker this isn't like a full background piece i imagine two days of forty eight hours with hunter hunter biden like having a total control troll over the situation money and like being comfortable equals a really bad event within two days i don't think he can i don't think he can get away with two days of being like normal no no i mean i those were those were only like kids right now or is it hunter is only child now only yes seattle i think okay okay a i mean i forgive the drugs and alcohol i get it it's a fucking a devil on your shoulder at all times but the fucking of the debt brother's wife and it's not it's not even that because a lot of grieve and if like you know like when you grieve and you love someone died sometimes you just get these emotions you get together but is the fact that both of them had full families right that he left the game uncle daddy like if they both were like there's no kids in either side involved or he becomes the father of his brothers brothers children and didn't have a wife and kid of his own threat it it's a little bit more understanding more even though it's weird yeah this is on friday bitterly making insane decisions so it's not like it's a one time thing yeah it's just gonna be forever and he makes his dad close his and listen to him so we don't want joe biden closing his eyes around guys who are rats view of america biden would be all right let's take it over to an interview with bill grucci of fireworks by bright a special interview coming for ya a we have a still grucci which is the owner of a fireworks by grucci end 'em he is supplying the fourth of july extravaganza that president trump is putting on the fireworks so a thank you for joining us ville we appreciate you taking the call appreciate you having me i think day before independence say yes technically this is coming out yesterday so happy day before you and i'm also happy after for the listeners fantastic fantastic yes right so so a just a good start in tell us tell us a little bit about yourself you're company 'em you know how did you get hooked up with the president trump currently 'em i am ceo and president of a sorry currently i'm the ceo in a creative director of fireworks by croce which means that kind of a chief bottlewasher if you will but a working west about two hundred fulltime employees that we have that the that extend to another four hundred part time employees now all around the country from coast to coast far west is hawaii florida north is the charles river up in boston it's down south is has a keep escape so i'm currently in a in washington dc 'em down a point at hanes point and i'm watching twentyone flatbed trailer is being moved into their final a display positions kind of exciting for me i know it doesn't necessarily i mean anything to many of the of the listeners but each one of those flat rate trailers have a portion of that fireworks display that will be displaying a salute to america tomorrow evening at a at nine oh seven pm that sounds like a lot fireworks it's a lot nineteen a little over nineteen thousand different shells that will do displaying we have eighteen computer systems thirty technicians a little bit of logistics and the in statistics on the polling something like just the largest fireworks show the dc district is ever seen that's fantastic were from that area we've seen a few now how did you get linked up with this how did you did you work did you work directly with president trump or people in officer how did how did it happen well we we we saw her a doozy of a of a vet back in february and a family has a rich history here in in washington we've been honored to produce the last eight presidential inaugurations had fireworks all the way back in nineteen eighty one president reagan so we also have this be honored to be here for the millennium destruction are tech right on the washington monument which was a fantastic honor for us back then but snow quincy jones president clinton end up we heard of event that is being that was being established in we want to be part of it you know my family we strive on things like this for independence day celebrating independence so we teamed up with a loan term alone time a friends of on fat the fire consumer fireworks one of the bigger best consumer fireworks distributors and retailers in the country band they have they have they cruciate collection of consumer fireworks books which is a high end a collection of products at the consumer connection by so we designed that products we figured let's team together and let's bring this gift to america the yeah eventually we we were put in contact tack with the national park service and we worked out in agreement with them on how the donation gets worked on how it's done properly so well on the opposite side of the teas across which we did and then we assembled a team in here we are we are now getting let me just do the producer largest fireworks show that we've ever done in a district that's fantastic i've been to a few a firework shows on the fourth of july in washington dc and i learned the lessons a child my father taught me how to be out of my shorts the line to the bathroom too long i know that that would be an issue down there we have tons of fortify that's okay that's my favorite over that like fireworks baguley by kate though did you actually do you get to speak with president trump in in kind of like a you know talking about his vision or did when someone is in his office and you guys just kind of like let let let us know it was pretty much a tire creative in the end the design of the program is coming from studio and so we've we've designed engineered and will produce entire program working with with our friends from fat the fireworks a we deal with the entire design news whereas hours i may also president trump but you have seen seen some of our work in the past so he knows the quality of what we will get up deliver and bring it at no cost american people for the fireworks display with something that was to everyone that's excellent how did you get into the fireworks this oh i didn't my great my second great grandfather started this business it already italy back in eighteen fifty in his son anthony my second great grandfather was angelo his son anthony now they they established what was then called the business but it was really a small mom and pop operation did ari italy on the adriatic sea side of the southern italy they came through ellis island like many immigrants data in the early nineteen hundreds of set set up their shop out on a out on long island out in the middle of long island which is very close to where we currently have are studios right now when we see all their belt point my grandfather dead at a press this sunday his uncle owners oncle anthony my grandfather felix which i'm very proudly named after representing the third generation and he he basically managed business until the early seventies when my that james and his brother felix and insisted donna which with my aunt and uncle then a random business until about early eighties when i graduated college i joined the company full time as the fifth generation a member of the family so the fourth generation my uncle an they'd be tired about five years ago and then i acquired all these only a stock ownership of the company with my my son and my nephew and my my daughter lawn my nephew korean korean my son christopher and many others their last names may not be grucci but there's certainly part of a fireworks family are now running the business has the fifty six generation when one and honor to be here today a celebrate you're in the nation's capital to do so well that's about demos american story i've ever heard and i would put on any fireworks show with my life but say thank you no problem how do we get free fireworks i will respond to that by the way fireworks in texas do what could we plug something that how do we get bio pic says well you know if you get free fireworks at texas but i'm sure there's a there's many fandom firework stands stands in stores that you could go to rent a look for the grocery collection and get yourself some very professionally made in high quality fireworks i'm gonna call you when i mentioned in my days is route you mentioned how they might not give it to you for free free but they're definitely to one guy who's living in the trailer next the fireworks then he's gotta know where you are now i have a few more questions for you we appreciate your time out were taking this seriously but we're gonna give you a few hardball ones here do you know how many dog you're responsible for stressing out i don't know the number a there there's obvious way to manage that my my little westie name a star she yeah she gets a little nervous also when the fireworks happened but now we try we try it from the fireworks display side you try steadily mope move into the program it builds and builds and builds but if the dog is go or the pet is gonna be nervous said that it certainly burnham downstairs put him in an area that you could play some music and credit distract that many of them are are are accustomed to the noise but you know some different at eight children for that matter a lot of children and also the sudden boys is based on our web so if they are subtle did bring him into a place that the doors maybe muffled i certainly wouldn't bring up the truck lineup of fireworks display yeah we we made the snake one time of bringing on a are are buddy wheels a dog to eight fireworks display without without will and you could imagine how that ended a three day certainly a good picture nominee got we got we got back we got two more questions for you and ask you one more hard one and then closer with a nice one in do you do you have all your fingers i do thank god i do a tribute i attribute that to my grandfather and so my dad got the rest of my family you know we've taken out business very very serious thing so we we we really never played around with firecrackers in the spring consumer fireworks were were yelling we were always part of these types of productions and you know what you what you get involved in one of these and you get this in your blood you look at one of those those types products you really wanna stay away from it because this is what oxtail is yeah when the professional in imagine you are safe and respected last question let you go what is your favorite type of firework and explain to the layman my favorite save a kind of a fire workers say a that's called the goshi gold slid are split comment at the shell that my dad develop back in the early eighties when it explodes is thirty five of these golden glitter they look like fourteen carat gold dust comments that that that descend out like a spider and just when you think that they go out they they split or exploded again so let's say golden splitter splitting comic in when you when you just display many of those you make this gigantic and very elaborate elegant lattice affecting the sky so we typically would display them right before the grand finale all right last question that that is something off my work how long is the grand finale gonna be this year a here for a salute to america it is about a minute forty five seconds that's awesome okay how many fireworks oakland in that manafort little love it love in nineteen thousand shells well phil so it's they filled richie thank you so much for joining we appreciate your time on again this is coming out in the festival recording on the third i'm sure the show is gonna be great have a good fourth of july you wanna you wanna make a public apologies all the dogs out there before you gotta be nice smell operator unsafe offended by that was fun thank you phil okay 'em i guess were gonna play this scam right what is it called american desert island american desert and i'm unfamiliar with a desert island game to explain explain basically like there's a variation of it but essentially if you're straight on a desert island you've got to bring like one person one item type thing and and what would you bring if you could do that so were doing the american conversion of essence is the fifth of july fourth of july week so we're gonna bring an american person an american invention new hypothetical like american desert island or american location where no one else's around right who wants to go first i west you're the champion this game i'll go for it are a i'm going meghan fox and the jetski should we shouldn't man that's key man engine yeah just isn't americans on that's amazing even if you even need to allow operator no i mean you just imagine why would wanna bring making fox and also why jetski the fun we'd have and i could just leave her go back for supplies she's just they're so you've so there's this theoretical jetski could get you off the island i yeah that's that was in my mind that the great got it okay you gotta go back and you go back and get some food some some some toys you wouldn't wanna go far from meghan fox oh no now you gotta hide that key real i don't care what happened in all the scenarios where somebody plans to stay on the island what happened once you have kids oh it's gonna get dark but i do you wanna go ahead and say what do thirty years later i like drop the kids off with the jetski dropping like a foster home or something doesn't have any kids out there okay i'm not going that ron hansen i'm not going now you may not feel credit any other way but at some point you're not gonna you're not gonna now i know what hunter biden would do yes i will do you wanna go next year women who go i'll go i'll go next 'em and i feel like we should do a second round because i've got i've got a backup and i don't think okay we we could do that but i don't think any of us kaput but since last 'em did do the jetski i'm gonna go with this one is my first one george h w bush man oh oh is there something wrong with me no yes an airplane and cause george h w bush is the president's that's present in a war hero in a pilot so he could do all this stuff you could tell me everything about like all the implied plan yet oh you'd be so entertained and then he's one of these limy back to america where we drink beers and have sex with when well technically you're still in america i mean that is like a cop out if he doesn't go transportation about the second i'll do transportation to the second round you have to stay on second round were staying on the island the first round this is this anything goes in there for me it's the season pilot who can tell me if aliens really do exist are not an airplane because first and flight the wright brothers so you're going george bush post george bush senior senior george bush senior post residency so he all the secrets of old george like well he's already butterfly 'cause you skydiving still so sure but if he knows about aliens he's been at least one term young right after the first term senior but an air depressed because he didn't get elected it's like all right i'll go i'm gonna go on nikola tesla who had three hunter patents including ac the ratio neon lights the turbine and oh yeah he also invented wireless control boats so there you go with my transportation we could get off the island apparently he was also a great showman and fantastic order and he liked to demonstrate his inventions with a great showman strips i'd just be letting them do all the work and i would watch and perform like this awesome i think he's like and here's the boat and i'm like all right so we a and then i guess for my invention i would go with the internet you idiots oh you gotta pick that that's a slam dunk held accountable okay i i can't or three minutes without internet plus you get internet porn so i don't need that sexual nikola tesla in a jerk off center point you also get it like games on the internet the news i just be a jerk off while he's inventing shit and then plant and catching up on the news at everybody and if anyone knew what he was inventing venting it would be it would be reading about yeah you'd be so much smarter when you got off that island like that all right for sure yeah without mentor by nikola tesla technically he was not born in america so my next round all american but he lives in a snake draft and you go you negga i'll go next okay then i'm gonna go cindy crawford fry obvious reasons nineteen ninety cindy crawford she's still hottest the sun in her fifties without that'd be fine and i'm gonna go bourbon one of the only american contributions the booze game not sure i could survive without booze on a hypothetical islands so i would just be a drinking bourbon with cindy crawford for thirty years ago you wouldn't survive long in that scenario but it would be a fun time yeah i should've picked like gatorade but i'm sure there's like some streamer something i could drink out a dream you'd you'd be dead pretty quick but that would be a hell of a couple of months okay if i'm staying on the island this is what i'm taking young brittany spears ended gigantic three d printer because what do you got a print you could build houses with a three d printer oh or whatever you got it all like that yeah i like three letter americans made the three d printer baby i liked that my third choice is franklin lord right 'cause you could build a house for me that's smart printing out rudy monitor mad get even do everything with it yeah that's true you could print a gun gun he got his you want you could shoot hurt yourself when she goes crazy 'cause you know there's a clock on young brittany spears you got heimer 'em i know you're gonna pick jetski so i didn't do too much more research on it but i did see you know you're you're only that's hilarious i i knew i was in my search for just hot women i discovered a rachel fish have you guys ever seen this this person oh oh look it up and that's that's the game that sort of games play desert island will bring it back on the phone when i that does it for hard factor this week as always thank you for listening follow us at heart factor news on twitter and instagram drop us a five star review on i tunes if you liked the show and most unfortunately have yourself a great fucking weekend wall well he grew to induce labor stri in the lunar ball the scene of country not to she called man go for the rich man we know this man you know when i was in school you know we used to say something like well he's been a spiritual skin a well yeah well in front of a the magic i'm talking about how we brew america you know the non peter gammons some maybe he did in the senate c been no because it's so good you find a we know that we were saving from seeing some thank you

randy savage reno truckee truckee murder amtrak two days thirty years forty five seconds forty eight hours fourteen carat three minutes one percent five years three day one week
The Spy Who Emailed Me

Rework

25:41 min | 1 year ago

The Spy Who Emailed Me

"The. Rework is brought to you by base camp introducing. Hey, our love letter to email email has become a chore. You get stuff from people you don't know you. Lose control over who can reach you and an avalanche of automated emails clutter everything up. But it doesn't have to be that way. Hey is a Redo a rethink. A simplified potent reintroduction of email head over to hey, dot, com, that's H., Y. Dot, com to find out how you can be one of the first to try. The amount that gets tracked when you open an email, it's not just that you opened the email. It's when you opened the email. How many times the IP address which is tied back to your location? The email client used mobile or desktop web mail or in the browser. That gets used for segmenting targeting customers. You can send an email to your customers based on their location where they are without them ever having to give you that location I consider myself fairly tech savvy, and if I didn't work in this world, I would have no idea this is someone we're calling nick and he works in the email marketing industry. He asked that we disguises voice to protect his privacy and that co workers. It's overall a very good company, culture and apart. Apart, the fact that the tracking kind of unsettles me. I, really like what I do going through my inbox. I just got one about headphones. and honestly I wouldn't mind seeing more of this content, but now that I opened that email. They know that I opened in g mail on chrome where I opened it. How often I open their emails, so they might even if they look at my profile in their lives, see that that's not a usual occurrence for me and. For some kind of that from that and I'm not comfortable with the company having that much information on me on a regular basis. Hello and welcome to rework podcast about the better way to work and run your business I'm Sean. I'm waylon walk. We hear base camp are in a position, not too dissimilar from Nick like newsletters, and we've been sending them to customers for years now we use email newsletters to announce new features and books give customers tips on how to use basecamp and share point of view, but like so many other parts of the Internet, email newsletters. Aren't that simple anymore? Tracking is now the default and companies are adding more ways to monitor when where and how people are reading emails without the consent of the receiver. This is done with technology called tracking pixels, and it makes us really uncomfortable base camp is actually launching a new email product called hey, next week and one of the really cool things about it is that it blocks these tracking pixels. So strongly about this issue that we're devoting an entire episode on today's show base camps head of marketing and our marketing designer. Talk about the trouble. They've had a new email newsletter provider. Then we look at what one very privacy centric or Did when facing similar dilemma, so let's kick things off with Andy Beater Rosie head of marketing here base. Because, we've largely said not most social media aside from twitter, and we've said no to a lot of the targeted tools like re targeting that other people use. We don't have that. Many tools laughed. So that puts more importance on a thing like newsletter were treated as something that we're putting together with a lot of caring compassion. We're trying to make something useful that we'd actually WANNA receive. We don't want it to create more digital trash out there you know digital junk mail doesn't do anybody any good. What do you feel like you give up in terms? Terms of like knowledge, gathering or business intelligence when we're not putting tracking pixels in emails. Are we giving something up? We put these things in emails because it costs almost nothing you're thinking that because you have data available to you that it's somehow inherently useful, but I can tell you from experience that we're not gonNA change the content of our emails based on. If they're opened more or less, it's just not that interesting us. Because what we have to say is based on what we're trying to get across. It isn't that we're putting out a little. Little message seeing how people respond to it. Does it cost us a little audience like totally, but it's a off that we're willing to make so there is a tradeoff, but Andy says he satisfied with our newsletters perform based on the data. We do measure. He sent his first email newsletter in December. This main newsletter that's usually sent out once a month like a our last campaign that we did, we had excellent results. And how did you measure that? We looked at how many people clicked onto the website now I will say just in in full transparency. Transparency that'd be my first email. The default mail chimp settings were on, so it did go out with open tracking, which is totally like on me. I'll tell you we haven't looked at it or use it for anything. We're not managing our audience based on who open it or what like for all future says there will be no open truckee whatsoever, but we do look at whether people click onto the website from Lincoln the newsletter. That's something like we do like to look at correct what Lincoln have at the end as a UTM code very transparent. We advertise the Farnam street newsletter, and so it says sourced equals. F S E which literally means Farnam street email, and so when you come to our site, and you sign up for a trial in like scores one in the trial boxer Farnam Street. That's it I've been in the habit of always deleting the UTM at the you know. It's like you get a link and you're like I wanted to share this. And then you copy and paste, and you're like. Oh, I got all this Gobbledygook I make sure that we only have one UTM tag. Some you'll see you'll. Actually you can clearly see what they're thinking of you in the tags. You'll see. There'll be like a demographic tag and location tag in a what ad brought us their tag like the creative you know, some of these tags can be like five or six eggs. Long I'm just trying to have one of them. How you got to us is really the only thing that we know anymore and I'll tell you it's not. It's not super accurate. You know like you said you can take tags out. Some people have blockers on their browsers strip tags out. You cannot look at a data source like how many users referred via the UTM tags and say that that's a definitive number. It's been off by a factor of two so like kind of the blinder. We are the less creepy it is I wanted to be sort of like a vague inclination to how this thing did I'm not looking to dollars and cents, so base camp does use these UTM tags are campaign based not personal, so they're not linked to anyone's individual email address. We view it as the equivalent of using an offer code on an ECOMMERCE website. Figuring out what passes are smell? Tests is a process that started several months ago and has required Andy. Marketing Designer Adam stoddard to reevaluate our entire approach to newsletters including what provider we use here's Adam win. Jason and David I started talking about disabling tracking pixels. Wasn't that big of a deal? We thought because mail chimp provides at least like some control with male champions. On a campaign by campaign basis, so there's like a really strong point of failure there. That's someone has to remember to click. The check marks to turn off Pixel tracking, but like it was Kinda, fine. But then someone on twitter, a point dowse David I got an email from you with tracking pixel in it. And, so we dug in and it turns out that the confirmation emails so like when you know when you sign up for email lists usually get a confirmation email that you have to click on to actually confirmed the subscription, so those emails had male chimps Pixel trackers in it that aren't for our purposes at all like they weren't for customer reports. It's for whatever inscrutable purposes. They're collecting that information for can disable them. The only workaround in the short term was to just turn off double. Opt Ins completely, which like isn't great in and of itself with double. Opt in like it's a little more work that you do have to confirm, but it also means that every email that gets on the list is an actual real email address, so the team went shopping for another newsletter provider to replace mail chimp, which was itself replacement for our old provider campaign monitor. The problem is that the industry caters to the exact opposite. Of what we're looking for a lot of services now are offering like personalization features were pulls data from like maybe from your own service like if you run, a store pulls in their purchase history or maybe pulls data from social profiles Melt Japan feature that we definitely don't use base camp, but it speaks to how much tracking technology has evolved. It's a program where customers can send snail mail postcards to people using shipping addresses. They've provided. If there's no physical mailing address on file for someone Malcolm tries to find one in another customers audience based on that person's email. This is where the industry is headed. Even taking physical mail out of the equation, it's about increased personalization and targeting based on your activity and actions. You'll get a different sequence of the emails that all like provides the veneer of like seeming like you're interacting with someone potentially. But it's just a you know a logic tree of. Oh this person clicked on this link, so we're going to give them this this other email sequence. Again. This is another thing that we have just absolutely zero interest in so we're kind of in this position of trying to find some kind of workable solution, and it's just you know concessions on all sides, so it's kind of just a matter of which poison till we do we feel like swallowing our needs for the most part are very basic like most of what these services offer. So far beyond what we actually want. There's really not that many services that are kind of catering to more of that. At least four like is for just like that I just want to write a newsletter and send people kind of audience. There's some like more like personally oriented services like tiny letter, which is now owned by mail chimp, but they're definitely not meant for the volume. That that we're sending. What's our biggest? Subscriber List is a list in the like tens of thousands hundreds of thousands the list was at least for our main newsletter. It was like eight, hundred thousand, and, but we just went through a process of of cleaning that up to be more in line with GDP are and so right now it's like around two hundred thousand Oh. That's a big cleanup, did then? In a lot of that was because after recent the last newsletter David is like That was a eight hundred thousand people every sure. We're doing the right thing here and as it turns out once. We dug in a little more. It's actually not kosher to automatically add people who sign up for a trial of Basecamp to the marketing list like what we can communicate with people without explicit marketing consent is like directly material to the service where providing like there's a service outage. This part of it it's it's been no one's job, so it's just been kind of like sitting around. And unfortunately that means were dealing with a little bit of a reset. Whereas, if we had been a little more diligent about power collecting consent, and all of those things we, we'd be in a little bit better shape so right now. The trade off is there's some offer that's kind of more self hosted that we'd have a little more control over, but then we're kind of getting back into like owning the the mailing list manager software. That's another thing we now have to take on something like you would then probably have to be in charge them right. Yeah, so like that's. That's not super desirable and also like at least the one we're looking at which like send deco uses Amazon. For sending email, yeah, we can turn off tracking pixels, but then we're kind of brushing up against another thing we don't want to do which is get further in bed with big tech companies. And then there's the option of like a bunch of smaller centers, some of which are very promising and probably would be pretty open to making modifications. To their platform, but also like. I don't know if they're. They're quite there in terms of. Being able to serve larger audiences. Were you surprised when you were shopping around that? There was no goldilocks provider out there because there are so many competitors where you like, surely if I just keep trolling around for recommendations and do more googling like I will find that company. Were you surprised not to find a company that seemed like a like a really good fit. A I feel like within this industry. No one feels like Pixel. Tracking is a bad thing like it's just fundamentally accepted a fact of a fact of nature that this is something that you do and it's just. It's just not questioned. And I think that's why so many people are kind of bristling when David describes him despite pixels because they're like. Oh, that's redoing, but like yeah, you kind of are so. Adam. Andy are still shopping around for a newsletter provider. Now? Let's talk to an organization with very strong views on privacy that also wanted to send newsletters and learn how they found provider. They felt comfortable with. My name is not Hesse I am the president of the markup which is a brand new investigative journalism outfit at how technology is being used to remake society, and the Markup is obviously privacy focused and takes. Takes up very seriously on all sides both in its reporting, and in its relationship with its readers, and how it's just set up in general. How would you summarize your privacy promise? It's important to us that we are independent and trustworthy brokers when we explained to the public. What is happening on the Internet and there are some vague sense that the internet doesn't. Doesn't exactly work the way. We think that there's some seedy underbelly. Some transaction is happening, and our job at the markup is to help. Folks navigate that today like this is how stuff is really working, and so because it was so important for us to be trustworthy, as we're sort of brokering and explaining what's going on that. We thought IT WOULD BE A. A little strange if we were also enmeshed in this surveillance infrastructure, the surveillance economy of the Internet right, so we could talk to you all day about facebook's tracking, but if we have a hey, share this on facebook button at the bottom of our website. It's kind of a funny position, so our privacy promise is simple. We will not sell your data. Will collect the minimum amount of data from you possible in order to run our business, and we will always be transparent about what we're doing. The promise seems simple, but the way it manifest itself can be complex because when we want to have a you know a twitter embed on our page. We just can't use the one that twitter makes Ross. We've to make everything from scratch to avoid the kind of tracking that is of course everywhere on the Internet, and so when you say minimum amount of data. How did you come up with that meant? We'd like to say no data as we're learning there. Some things that you collect by virtue of having in. We'll. We'll know in order to see how many people come to our website. We will maybe have some sense of what the Ip address is. Now the question is how much do we store men? How much do we keep into? Minimum was is really. Just a way to say look. We know that some incidental collection may happen what we really want it to be as close to zero as possible one line that really stood out to me in the letter that you wrote. That was posted on the markup when it launched. Was You said because we don't track you? We don't know if you like your work. Work. We don't know if you open our newsletter or if your cursor lingered over a particular story, do you not even record like a basic open rate? NOPE, we have no idea so it means that we don't know if people like it, and we don't know if people are marking it as spam ending up in people's spam inbox and that may be. Something that has consequences for us. Our privacy promise is so important to who we are. That were willing to experiment. With all of these different features, just as sort of a proof of concept of whether, it's possible, because since we're not gonNA, track open rates. We've to do other things to determine whether people like our content are not like talking to them right, so we have to ask people directly. Hey, do you like what we're providing to you? Fill out the survey or hey, we observe this online. Did you see it to participate in this? Call out and so? So, what it requires us is to have a really hands on approach to building a conversation with the audience, because we can't rely on even basic metrics that will tell you that that is a very laborious process, and it's not for everybody, but it is right for us because that's part of what we're trying to show. Examine and explore whether it's possible to build the Internet a little bit differently and to build a media organization a little bit differently. Differently of course all these privacy concerns lead back to the issue of email tracking pixels. We knew that we wanted to have a newsletter provider that would agree to remove all tracking technology, and we have this amazing email thread where everyone's jumping in and someone saying you know what it looks like. There's some link decorators here. This looks like a unique ID, and so the team actually rallied around the entire process of identifying. What does no tracking technology mean? Mean it is actually possible, so then we found a couple. We found review. We found sub stack, and we ended up going with review in part, because it was a small team, and it felt like we were a small team about to launch their growing to, and they were really responsive on my name is similar. Find the Guy Poland. Is CEO of review where a editorial newsletter tool for writers and publishers by actually started on my own as A. A side project we noticed that a lot of writers and journalists started joining platform, and that's when we started to realize that it really resonated with them. You know it's about Golden publishing, so it's not about converting people to buy more products in your web shop. For example, it's really about engagement and reaching your audience and building a loyal more loyal audience. Did you find that you were getting some ideas as well from your customers about what they wanted? Wanted to see in terms of tools or ways to measure engagement, and then you're able to incorporate those into your product would be thinking about that a lot and working with Polish to find the right balance between how much they want to see and privacy. I think that's one of the important things that we're thinking about an reviews. Relationship at the markup came out of a series of conversations about privacy, and what could be possible they reach out. Out To us and when they came to us, they also started talking to us about the privacy. We were always thinking about that in discussing publishers, but we didn't have a feature that would allow them to specifically disable everything like every form of tracking so and then when we when they talked to us that really resonated with us, and that's why we built that specific feature for them and Funny Story. Is that while we were building it for them? Them publishers reached out to US asking exactly the same thing which was proof for us that this was something that was important, also for bolster show not only for us. Can you talk about the range of tracking that you offer so I can get an idea of maybe what the markup was asking for. That perhaps goes further than what you had been asked for before so obviously. The first thing you WanNa do is disable opening. Click tracking. Right, that's the most obvious one at least for us like not a lot of people know that they're being tracked that way, but that's the first step, but then when we continue talking to them like we also for says for optimizing a platform landing pages We automatically add a UTM tags, so yeah, we we basically gave them the option to disable everything and that's that's. That's what they're really happy with N now. Is this offer to everyone else? Yes, so the way our. Our platform works is we have a pro plan where everybody can just sign up at? It's more for individuals that want to do a newsletter and we the publisher plan, so the obviously is focused on publishers, and that's something we usually set up for them as a right now it's it's still only a available in the publisher plan. We wrote our very first newsletter at the markup about the process of finding a newsletter and the number of folks I had slide into i. e mails This is a folly like you are making a huge mistake. It's not necessarily bad to track people. It's how you understand what your audience needs. Don't paint it as evil, and I responded saying I know the information the knowledge. I'm leaving on the table. I know that I'm not gonNA know open rates I know what the downside is, but what I'm here to explore is. Is there an upside? Is there something else that? That we can learn because we decide to connect with our audience in a more analogue or more labor, intensive way can that be a substitute and I think it's worth it to even try and see if that's the case, which is what we're doing. Other publishers reviews platform can adopt the markup strict, no tracking policy on their newsletters to although my says he expects more of a range, they take British strong stand there. Disable everything. And I think between you know having available and what day decided to do i? Think there's a there's a lot of room still right like that. This is something that we are thinking about a lot. Right now is what's inbetween like? For example you could also still have the opening click tracking, but just not. Make that information available in your own use aggregate. Analytics for example if that makes sense, those things that we are are thinking about him that we're discussing with publishers. Most companies are saying we want more analytics or data hungry. We want everything. We don't know how we're going to use it, but it's good to have is really the mindset and ours is fully data minimization. We don't want it unless we know exactly what it can give us, and whether that's worth it and that last piece whether it's worth, it usually means we don't want it. If this unsettles you, there are opt out, and if you are really committed, you can find them if you go through the big email. Marketing providers constant contacts campaign monitor Sinden blue, Malchow. Clavijo contact them. There are off today little. Unfortunately, they're hidden and buried in a lot of places and really hard pine. We'd at them. Contact their support. Contact their abuse deaths. You Chan opt out of love this. Rework is produced by Sean. Hill and me Waylon Wong Music for the show is by clip art. We're on twitter at rework podcast and you can find show notes for this episode at Rework Dot FM. If you WANNA sign up for base comes newsletter which goes up monthly. We have something to say visit peacecorp dot, com slash newsletter. You can follow the markups investigative reporting on big, tech, and privacy at the Markup Dot Org, and you can scroll down to the bottom of their homepage to sign up for their trekking free newsletter there on twitter at the markup and on Instagram at the dot markup you can find review at. At get review, Dot, Co. that's get our EVI. You E. DOT CO as we mentioned earlier base camp is launching a new e mail service on June. Fifteenth called Hey and one feature of hey is that the software blocks these spy pixels next week on rework? We have base camp, co-founders, Jason Freed and Higher Hansen on the show to introduce hey, and explain what it does including protecting user privacy. That's next week on rework. Is brought to you by Basecamp. BASECAMP is the all in one tool kit for working remotely because of Kobe. One thousand nine hundred company is likely scrambling to figure out how to transition to remote work may feel daunting. BASECAMP is here to help. We built base camp to run our entire company and we've been working remotely for twenty years. We know what it takes. We do it every day. We built those learnings into based. Check it out for yourself. Base, CAMP DOT COM.

twitter Andy Beater David I Adam stoddard nick Jason Freed head of marketing facebook Dot, Co. US truckee Lincoln Poland
Connecting Leadership and Keys - Best of FB Live

The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

11:17 min | 1 year ago

Connecting Leadership and Keys - Best of FB Live

"The episode you are about to listen to was originally a facebook live. Consider this the best of Kevin's facebook lives. Welcome to the remarkable leadership podcast. We are here each week. To help you lead more confidently and make a bigger difference both professionally and personally. This episode is sponsored by Kevin's free weekly a news letter unleashing your remarkable potential which is full of articles and resources to help you become a more confident and successful leader sign up by going to remarkable podcast dot com forward slash newsletter. And now. Here's your host Kevin. Hey everybody welcome to do another facebook live. Welcome to another remarkable leadership podcast. If that's how you're joining us some of you I know are joining me. Live and I'm glad that you're here. Others are watching it later. I'm equally glad that you're here and and if you're joining me from facebook you're wondering and if you looked at your list on podcast made podcasts. You might be wondering as to why I'm I am doing it. Episode About Leadership and Keys Holding one of my keys. My truckee right now. Leadership and keys. Well you can thank Pete Walker for this because he issued his challenge to me. I'm an awfully on again off again. Doing these sort of leadership mashups where I'm talking about a topic leadership leadership my favorite topic And connecting it to an object or thing in this case. It's going to be about keys so I've got a number of things I've been thinking about keys all day to prepare. Prepare for this conversation. So I'm going to share some things that make the connection between key and leadership and hopefully give you some really insightful or at least useful will leadership thoughts along the way well. The first thing that key does is it opens things right it. It has the power to open things for US and So I think as leaders we are door openers as well we are openers of doors for our team members right we can open the doors of opportunity we can open opened the doors of a job. Perhaps we could open the doors to experiences. We can open the doors to growth and development. Our role as a coach gives us the chance to be a door opener for our team members so like a key. A leader is a door opener but he's also allow us to lock things up and sometimes as leaders we have to lock things up with the lock things down perhaps I think about boundaries that we as leaders must set clear boundaries for our folks which which create the space that. We're in in the space that we're not in just like a key can do for us and I think that useful to think about not only do keys open when things they close or lock things in leaders. Both of those can be a part of our role as well. The third thing that keys provide us if we have the key we have a sense of safety insecure that we can be inside and be locked in and be safe and as leaders we can provide safety to our team members. We can provide ride psychological safety and emotional safety for folks in a variety of ways. We can make it a safe place to work. We can provide the safety insecurity that comes with having a job or a chance for people to be economically. Okay hopefully as leaders we can make it physically safe. We're in businesses. Where safety is important? The safety is always important but where safety is more paramount than we as leaders can create systems and approaches and culture to make it safe for our folks just like a key can make things safe. We as leaders can make things can provide a sense of safety insecurity for our team members. As I thought about this I've got a couple of let's keys right here and I've got another key or two in this drawer and it reminds me the keys are sort of everywhere you go out and about and you see people with keys on their belt and you got. Everyone's everyone's gotTa keys in there. I there's keys here there and everywhere there seems to be keys everywhere. Omnipresent and as leaders there are leaders everywhere we ought to be thinking about that in terms of our role as elite or not that. We're looking over people's shoulder but we should always be present. Always be available always always be really available right word. We want our keys available. We don't have our key. We can't do all the things it can do. We need our leaders to be close to be available doc to have that quote open door policy. That's important keys are omnipresent and leaders ought to be available ought to be around and be be able to assist thing I was thinking about. Is that you think about keys. They've been around for a very long time right. He's open open things. I mean it goes back to my children and my wife would tease me too. If I were to tell you that I watch gunsmoke early. Episodes of gunsmoke from the Mid Nineteen fifties. There's all sorts of keys on those shows and there's keys from far beyond far back earlier than the eighteen fifties which is being eighteen seventies. Even and Gunsmoke is talking about their keys. have been around for a long time doing the stuff that they do and they've been leaders around for a long time have they're not. I mean there've been leaders around as long as people have been trying to accomplish things because it takes leaders to make positive things happen. Someone needs to set a goal set an approach approach and help people move in that direction keys have been around time a lot run a long time and so have leaders. The only thing that I've thought about I'm just thinking about keys since I was a kid keys. Used to look pretty much all keys. Look something like this and then I've been showing you keep. It looks like this yes and I got other keys here. That kind of like the standard key keys have evolved now. He's look more like this or even in like this and so- keys have evolved over time as our use for them has changed as are. The technology has has changed the ability of keys to do to do the same things but maybe to do them better or differently has happened. In as leaders. We must evolve. We must be able to take on new challenges work with different people lead in new ways. Take advantage of technology take advantage of situations and and make ourselves valuable as leaders evolving over time while the core principles of leadership had not changed. Just like that of a key hasn't hasn't really changed in forever. The exact use the exact approaches are always flexing and like keys we as leaders must must be evolving. The last thing that I thought of is that now lots of times you can start your car remotely. I can't with this You can start your car remotely you can open. Open your car remotely. You don't even have to put the key in ignition or in some place to get it to open right and well. That would seem like a very strange strange situation a number of years ago just like a number of years ago. It was quite odd for leaders to lead a remote team and now it's everywhere everywhere. I'm pretty much guessing that every car you buy today is going to give you that. Remote option the ability to do it through the air ability to do it at a distance and and we as leaders must evolve and be able to get good at get comfortable with and begin to lead people that we don't see every day that are far from us and I'm doing that every day and we're helping many many leaders do that through the Ramar. Excuse me through the remote leadership institute you can learn more about that. My going to remote leadership institute institute DOT COM. That's a big area that we're focusing on right now. Continuing to focus on helping leaders all over the world be more effective at leading remotely and fifty years years ago. We didn't have to really think about that. We had keys like this now. We have like this that allow us to do things differently and encourage us do things differently and we as leaders must evolve and change. Because if you don't have remote team members now the odds are you're gonNa have them and so the better prepared. You are in the more flexible. Oh you ought to do that the better off you will be so one two three four five six seven things I told you about keys and connected them to leadership keys open things as do leaders. He's can lock things as can leaders keys can provide a sense of safety and security in without question as leaders. That's part of our role to help. Our people feel safe and secure so they can be successful and ultimately productive there are everywhere and there are leaders everywhere and while we want our keys is nearby we also want our leaders nearby keys have been around a long time. So of leaders keys have evolved leaders must evolve and leaders morning now need to be remote because you can open mic. I can open my car from a distance and you need to be able to lead your team from a distance. So thank you for joining me. Today had a little fun. Thank you to Pete Walker for suggesting this challenge to me. Hopefully I met the challenge with some level of success. If you're joining us on their mortgage leadership podcast look forward to having you come on. I'm back again. You know. We'll be back if you're watching on facebook live. You can continue to find us here. Hope you'll do that as well. One last thing if you would love to continue. Continue your growth and journey as a leader. There's lots of ways we can help you do that. One of the freeways we can help you. Do that is what we call thirteen. Days to remarkable leadership thirteen. It is remarkable. Leadership is a series of emails delivered one day for thirteen days each of which has a short video with me from our studio downstairs and in that video I share share a story a leadership principle and then provide you with a tool to help you apply that principle thirteen days in a row. That's why it's called thirteen days to remarkable leadership your ship and you can learn more and sign up for that for free by going to Kevin. I can bury dot com slash. Thirteen days one three days. Kevin I can vary dot com forward slash thirteen days. Thanks everybody for joining me. Whether you're watching watch you're listening on the podcast watcher listening on facebook reported seeing you and talking to you soon and there is no such thing as a free lunch. This comes really close if your organization is looking to develop your leaders and if you love what you hear on the remarkable leadership podcast and are wondering if we might be able to help you have a chance to preview. Are World class learning experiences MRS at a very discounted rate if you qualify interested. You can learn all of the details and what's available for this highly discounted price at that. Almost no risk by going to Kevin I can bury dot com forward slash preview. Yes a chance to interact with us. See Our world class learning experiences variances and see how they will fit in your organization. Kevin I dot com for slash preview and.

facebook Kevin Pete Walker US Gunsmoke truckee Mid Nineteen Ramar thirteen days one three days Thirteen days fifty years one day
"FDNY Bobby Banome from Rapid Response Co."

Hellbound with Halos

32:30 min | 7 months ago

"FDNY Bobby Banome from Rapid Response Co."

"What's a friends? I JUST WANNA. Give a quick shout out to my Buddy Chris down a Cape Care Soap. He is turning forty today. So happy fortieth birthday brother The road doesn't get much easier than here but it's all about how you feel in your own mind right? So if you feel fucking twenty, then just be twenty who gives a shit about being forty but anyways, bro Happy Birthday to you. For Zero big number in this week's episode I said with Bobby from FDA and why he founded a company called rapid response. Now, rapid response is just the company name. The APP that he created is three sixty response and it was developed to give tools to help firefighters, save time and lives. His mission is to use state of the art technology to develop software that supplies first responders with critical information. When responding to emergencies you can go check out his website and his APP it save time save lives dot com. You can download the APP for free and IOS or Android. So Ladies and gentlemen please give a warm welcome to my friend Bobby from Rapid Response Company. Now. A. Hey Just a little. A little after again bobby. But that's okay because as we discussed before your nasty and Y guy. You're you're a truckee. So, Yeah Brian. fucking knuckle draggers down there i. But I learned right now. Bobby look at. To give the listeners a little bit of insight we had recorded with you previously We did about a forty forty five minutes show with you highlighting your business and stuff like that. As I always say everything happens for a reason I know it's Cliche Blah. Blah? Blah but you did bring up something that we're going to talk about a little bit on the show. That I think is absolutely fantastic that you do. So I'm kind of glad we had to re record this. I- I- FUCKED UP I. Ended up changing the file name of a whole your files and then deleting. The files didn't need anymore because I'm super OCD right and there they went. So that's when I emailed you and I'm like Shit. Bob. I for the last one, we had to get rid of it right Exactly. So look I know who you are Jeff a fall is joining me today is a guest co host so I welcome him with me I'm sure he'll have a bunch of questions for you as well Bobby, but this is Jeff. Why don't you start off from why I mean we're we're we're all firefighters. Get into our foot. How'd you get firefighting? Is this something that? Typically, it either runs in the family or you've wanted to be one since a little kid what how'd you get into it? It definitely the latter of the two Jeff Nice to meet you. Too thank. You guys had me on show again hit question definitely the latter of those two. I, am first generation firefighter no one in my family was on the job I just it's just something always wanted to do and I took the test seventeen and a half. I didn't get onto lows twenty six because the test that I took it. Ended up getting out ruled racially discriminatory, throw it out and it was basically a waiting game until they it was a huge a hiring freeze for a while. So in the meantime I thought it was GonNa Finish College while I was a firefighter but obviously all bad I ended up finishing college I was on still I'm a CPA that's what I did. To get nominees job so I graduated school. I, got a job at Deloitte and Touche which is just a big counting firm did that for maybe like Two three years and then I got recruited by a Hedge Fund Dafur about two three years. So do it okay and then they find the cold and I had to go for you know I had that was the day. My Dad's our firms me as the son who's allergic to money you know. So that was. Mean you like the fucking. You're on the path to the wolf of wall. Street lifetime. My Dad's a city Tricia he's retired. Now my mom's a city teacher right toes like I was I was one of the only people in the private sector you know and he was so proud of that like. That that I was this huge successful I was doing. All right you know and and Bray was a thriving. He's like I don't understand. He's this fucking patron. You don't even know anything about that job and he's just GonNa throw it all away and. I still have the last holiday. He goes. You know what you run around more now than you did before. And you happier now than you were before he goes so. Maybe you figured out it's is good now or get now. Well, that's what it's all about right I mean any firefighter you ask them regardless of where you are in the country it's the best job in the world. You don't feel like you're going to work when you go to work you feel like you're going to the firehouse. Completely different and nobody that's not a firefighter we'll ever understand that never. So Yeah. You know I knew a lot of people from long island growing up in a lot of them got into. Diy. In some of the same things you know first generation. or they had come up through the volunteers in Long Island somewhere and no one guy who ended up getting on he was a water authority guy for the city and one of his guys won't stick test and he's like fuck it I'll go take the test and you know two years later year is fucking rolling down Manhattan and a fire truck being big bad firemen. But it's pretty cool and you know you guys I was just down there two years ago. For Flip School there officer school down now for Tottenham. and. Thank you and he has got to. got a bunch of good guys. We we joked around a lot with your as so we added we had a good time but adding. Doggone. Always always. Look at. You came up with the company and the company is called rapid response. Can you tell us a little bit about why you wanted to start the company in what what it does it's it's just an APP correct. It's an APP a mobile device right now. You Toss a little bit about the idea behind where they all came from. So I actually like like every one of our tools in the job were retroactive. You get the wrote to something bad happens right. So similar type thing where we a couple of negative experiences I'll just say I was I was bullshitting with my business partner right and We out to eat now, Tom Sawyer had nothing to do we missing the hydrant on fire catering hall. It was chauffeur's first job as a chauffeur. Right? We pulled up it was called day in the garbage pails saloon stack chest high whole curb. So I was control man which results fossils procuring the water source finding the hydrogen. And we missed it. We all we missed a call I looked at him A. Guinea. Whereas Arjun goes I have no I'm looking I see nothing berry they buried this thing because there's one over here but I know there's one on the on the avenue. Let's just take that. So we have to go further hydrant. It worked out got everyone out. No one got hurt. Thank God obviously, it was a delay water. You sound like that and I'm telling my buddy store he's not a firefighter. And he goes you guys know we items are. Right. Yeah you've got a good show for help. He'll. No just. I want he goes. Yeah. But you have some you have something that will tell you where you're hydrants are like when you have five. What we have on your map and on House Watch Right Pencil marks of we're all the eagles I went up when fire comes the ticket comes in. Your show for is like able to. Find. No. So, how do you know as it? Usually these I don't know I. Don't have a good answer for you. Just these guys usually no, he goes. That's fucking ridiculous. This Day age when I'm EGOS I go shopping at my normal shopping plaza I'm putting in ways and putting it in Google maps but you guys are in life saving operations and you're not leveraging any of that. I, said I. I. Don't know what to tell ya I guess not but it works what we do works. Right? We'll right up. To. Find A way. Right typical five. Mike Yeah. There's gotta be a better way I was like know don't sixty it's not broken. You know maybe a few days later he's like, yeah we all do some about this. We should. We should do something throw. It's not mean you could do about the like just leave it alone is that. And I think it maybe it was like two weeks later and another company I was working on his car park on the hydrant. Call Fire and it wasn't us but it was it was one of the engines in our area they missed the hydro. Okay. This is what I. Call Them Up Mike. Little pissed unlike y'all maybe there is something we could do you know when we just is the typical startup story know we we? We've tried to find I never developed an apple for anything like this in new is why we developed it overseas y'all like kind of like this minimum product just to see if it could actually be built in then it started to gain some traction so that we wrote all the development stateside and he has. Got Some invest the other I just started rocking and roll in. It was amazing. How much? No. Oh Now I can hear you. Good. Terry about that. I don't know what the Fuck Athens. Look. I don't know no way guys lost me. But basically now what we found is a way to get these first responders. All the information was marching formation as possible in the clearest most concise fashion right like went above bought. With you guys know as well as I do if you get too much information as Noah permission right by. A paragraph on the way and say, thanks. But no thanks I just figure out when I get there right right now we figured out a way where we got tablets on the rigs. Monitors back. So now the men are seeing exactly what the boss wants bring their attention to write off the ticketing AETNA street view of the building walls, a three d. view of the building. So you see on Front Bar Escapes Ria fire escapes overhead wires, a trees that block in the stick or the bucket right Uganda window bars you and literally it not only drops beacons on the highly. So there's no confusion I'm sure like you guys you have some attached buildings in your area, right? If you were to even go to Google. Street View Josh in the block you have no idea which one the fire address is right. Drops Beacon on it, and it always turns your head towards easy at writing almost no manipulation in terms of our side just what I need nothing that I don't in the fastest way possible and there's also Hydra Pete's right off the you get ten closest hygience. So. things that you have when you put a nice team of first responders working alongside a team of full-time developers. It's amazing what you can do because with their skill here they may not understand how fast and how easy we need it but between the two it's magic, it's pretty simple. You can make together. How do they? How do they do the? The the imagery, do they do that through guy? I know you mentioned Google maps but then you acted like it wasn't through a maps in and of itself. Three different maps actually all layered over each other so. The Three D. View Right now is leveraged through a Google Earth that you have the street view, which is a Google Street view, which is different map also made by Google bullets leverage the different way, and then there's an overview which is a third map, but they're all Kinda late over each other. In a way where you getting just what you need from that particular map Rackham. What do you get in that third view? Is that like a GPS where you can see the water mains? No. Wherever plug is everything like that. You guys actually does your map show the actual water main size and everything where all connect it depending on what product with working with in that apartment a lot of times to get that sort of information you will need a contract with with the department, which once we have it, we have what we have access to information. We absolutely give that right to the firefighters right but let's just say. You guys on your wanted. But you know all the red tape that will take to go through a contract in an. Attempt to get things into the firefighters as quick as possible if we can get it on your rig. Yeah we might not get main sizes, but all we need is hydro coordinates. So like right now New York. I, get a ticket and get the ten close inside of all we have. It's basically public information that you have access to those x and y coordinates for each hydrogen got one hundred eleven, thousand hydrogen, the city. Nina our system. So the ticket trump's in you closes hydrates and we inspect their hydrants. So are actually able to tell the fives. Okay. Usually closes hydrated and it's clear cut. It's either read between his out green means go or yellow means we don't know yet, but you see it right off the bat and it's actually built into the street view. So let's pretend the ticket comes in you open up the ticket is giving you a street you you're looking at the fire building. Okay. The boss wants to look left look, right it's also dropping your nearest hydrant beacon so you can tell how close your nearest hydrogen is. Building, in an actual tell you fifty five feet from viabilty. Estimating stretch route. You normally I linked to my need back stretching or it's just ultra cool things. I think the counties over fourteen critical points of information that these guys can get in on the two minutes. So every. Four and half minutes you figure thirty seconds to get you should on so. We really got it down to. Real short time very easily digested, created like a nice land for us just what we need. Yeah, which is perfect when you look when you. So you said you have a a monitor in the back of the rig. Correct is at one monitor for all the firefighters are one monitor each side so. You guys run five guys, right? You guys run five. In. The engine is in the engineer has one in the there's five in the truck there six. So the way the engine is situated, we were able to get old the members to see it with one monitor in a truck. The way they were sitting, we actually like the refers as V model, which is screens kind of chatting. So every memory, no one's got your slowdown getting yet year on Umass on oxygen on. You could see ed every person could see it at from their seat. Of the boss wants to bring their attention to solve a real fire escape Recep back on open chef, the coach Jeff, the roof for the roof man, whatever it is, he can. He can bring their attention to that and I don't think you sound like you're on go so he'll literally like on his screen up front he has control where if he sees a roof access or a potential hazard, debt has hazardous debt load on the roof or whatever he can zoom in on that and then cute back to you guys whether wearing headphone Mike's. In the truck and say, hey, Johnny check this out. We're not going on the fucking roof blah, Blah Blah. Operate not it. Is remain, and I mean, we don't have anything like that. Usually have someone screaming back to screaming about something about the bill you know at at least now screen. Screen. Mode. The engine and Signs Yeah that's the way it always goes man always. The forty say. We'll get there. We'll fuck we'll work on it that it's yeah that's great. So does it now does the firemen have control over? That is well can he like? So let's say he's the control man can swipe on that to see the different. Does that hookup everybody's screen? This is were experimenting with right now the control man or. Like the roof or the V.. Right now we're the boss is the only one able to control it because for the way we operate. He's really the only one who could. Actually keep an ungloved hand and operate this thing, right? Okay. We were talking about it where okay. If the if the boss zero in on something. And on the roof man so. Going in I'm going up I might have one zero in on song that. Doesn't necessarily want. So this is something we've been tinkering around with is may be put in a second tablet where I can't control the screen but no one really gives a shit about what I wanna see except me I'm the only one going up on the roof saw. So so maybe the bosses what we were going to start testing. Now if the leave the Boston control, the screen that everyone can see but gave me the opportunity to go after what I want. If if I see that it's different from what the boss wants runoff on the O. V. which houses outside vent I, know everyone uses different terms. My job is to make the rear right and and where I am in Brooklyn that's. Usually. a pain in the ASS and now vic- or the courtyard or what have something sort of rear axes. That's huge for me I'M GONNA zero in on that I got a real eight that's huge for me. Online going in my job is to get get the rear then may be going through the finally got a state. That's that's my main Brennan Barb. So again, maybe it's wise to have their own tablet for those particular guys. Zero in same thing if it could be applied to engine operations with control, man just wants to zero in on his hydrate. So let's pretend on control man yet the boss wants to know what kind of building going to wants to know maybe take a look at the rear does he ever risk setback? Is it a commercial whatever it is right I don't know about the hydrant so. Street use of the hydrogen. Now, if you have issues for us in the winded, they get buried in snow. Year round get buried with garbage on garbage day alternate side parking people don't give a shit. So it's like you kind of get hit and I'm sure you guys deal with maybe not the same herbals but Silla type pearls that are gonna be burying your water sources right so for us. When you get the street you of it and I see oh. Okay. So the blue, the Brownstone blue doors right in front of that, you can very thing thousand I can through garbage pails and still use it like now there's no chance of me missing it because I have my mark of five feet off the stop sign. That's it. I know I'm going and I know that it works. It's IT'S A beautiful thing but again, it might be your take cold peace. So that's something I'm glad you mentioned it somewhere tinkering with now is yet keep the birth control the street that everyone sees but might want as your own on other stuff maybe give them the ability to go after. So we're right now actually well, what was interesting to me is not only do you guys do that for plugs but We're pulling up the other day I'm the officer on the rig and I'm doing essentially to seventy. So we're pulling up on the house got possible Greece's fire in the kitchen. I'm pulling up on the House I'm grabbing at least three sides of the structure. And I literally looked right over the plug and when I gave my seen report I was like we're not We're not on water. Well, there's a fucking plug and literally. Put off the back rear. Of the truck. In they bust my balls a little bit about it. But like I'm not focused on that focused on what I've got going with this residential structure in what some challenges and Blah Blah Blah, all that crap. I was GonNa say if you had the rap. On the way there. Right in front of the driver right where we're GONNA PARK Right. Yeah. The red, the red, the things that we use doesn't give us that mapping but Yeah I mean we have the old box books to where you go through and you pull up your box and all your street in that box and you're hydrants are there but you know I used to be the type of person that would go to that box book regardless. Regardless of the technology and I found myself over the years now, just relying on technology when that instance in that literally happened two days ago. Celtic, made me think again like maybe I should open up the box book for every box. You know every call 'cause a discount seconds to open up the box book but at least I can get a good idea of what we see where and what is that will before we move on in you know we talked a little bit prior to recording about how you know we as halo is try to circumvent PTSD and mental issues in our first responders in. We've all got some issues here there we're all fucked up. You know we'll just put it out there. So we had talked about that but before we get into. Next thing I want to talk about quick 'cause I gotta I got about ten minutes left is. Where do people go find your APP is it called rapid response like if they type that into IOS in the APP store will come up if they take response, they'd probably on this but the actual product is called three sixty response. Companies rapid response go the product is three, sixty response. It's free bolt APP stores. It's a way like I said, you're GonNa get the rig version of it. No but there's a mobile version where you can stop familiarizing yourself with the UCLA concentrate us it's. Get access to the three D views that it gives you. So it's kind of like a nice way where we get guys to just go over there, check it out yet themselves almost familiarizing themselves with here, and if if if we can come in value, then then we start the conversation. Right. They can find it on our website websites save time save lives, DOT com. Save Time Save lives, dot. com that'll be That'll be really really interesting to see how your website traffic does after this because we do have a lot of first responders that listen to us so. Anybody literally anybody cross country can go and download this APP and start just kind of checking it out and using it and it will work for their district. Yup Absolutely. The website that could reach out and say, Hey, you know. I like it again if they just want on their rig, we can come in and help them out that low. They just want to mess around on the phones. They cost less no. They can actually send out their hydro coordinates or at least even on their mobile version, they could start getting a feel of what it would look like a Lotta Times. An excel sheet when they're hydrogen area so they could send it to at least we could start helping out. On a low level. Right. Right. That's awesome. Eighth. Whatever we can do right well, that all those links will be in the show notes. So guys if you just want to scroll down quick all the access to bobbies website and I believe I can even put a Lincoln for the APP, as well into the. into the show notes now, under the mental side of things, you had made mention of something that you started a few years back and I really wanted to talk about this because I think it's absolutely amazing what you guys are doing You're you're dressing up as superheroes in going and visiting sick kids in hospitals. What is it all about? What's the name of it? Okay. So the charity is humble heroes of FDM Y., and that's exactly it. We just we throw on the Superhero costumes we've Piatra front centers in Kansas Centers, stall out with us just doing it locally. Now go across the country go to Saint Jude's Memphis we go to Florida we go it sought it's incredible. You know because Y-, it's our way of giving giving back you know my friends and I always wanted to kind of went overboard on Halloween so he kind of had like that. stupidly slash passionate beforehand but you just joined forces. What people wanted to is he's kind of our cost of managing and he makes the most ridiculous marine at you could just tell it's his way of he loves doing it and he loves the actually because it gives you biggest credit, right? Yeah I'm the guy see skin here you. Go after you. So you're not the real Santa Yeah. It's like it's great because the effort put in the the better reactions from the kids. Right, and it's just it's an incredible appearance. I told you before when I walk in the room because of the the costing the Big Metal Shield, it's all legit. The Kit us and think Bobby Bobby. Dresses Taft. America's in there. They have their American to time out of his day to be bedtime with them and their jaw drops and the whole moon of of that situation because you're going into some. Sensitive for Aid Beijing's right. But right Oh a net and the homeless, and also you laugh at with the kid. The parents laughing and like maybe ten fifteen minutes you're in there but the data's chirp The kid right there. Right like you gave the dad a little break of not having to be the core of strength right there. You gave them where they teach you sit down and relax and laugh with you you know and. I remember one time. I don't want to go off on tangents here but I just you know you're the best store I had to dig went to Saint Jude's last year. And what they did saint like hospitals all on one campus and it's also one major throughway one cafeteria for five buildings. So they said in order to make the most of the visit we're GonNa, put you in that little that through way. So you catch all the traffic they. All right. Let's do it and I'm GonNa Hallway Right I see a kid I'm spending time with a bunch of kids this and I see one kid he's in a wheelchair at catching the just made the turn into the hallway. and. He's in a wheelchair and he's got A. Captain America. The Blue Shield on its on his hat. Right so I saw him before he sees me and I said, Hey, you know. John. Side. Of The wheelchair by thirty feet from me, rights runs all the way to be right and I got my out to like five and he. is huge hub rights, squeeze site guys hands on the side of helmet and he's like I m your biggest fan I got. Home Sheets. Kevin America. I watch every one of your movies this not on my your man I'm your biggest fan. What are the chances? Not Right. Go back a little bit will laughing and all sudden. You go into the cafeteria. The father comes back a few minutes late, right? And he's like, Oh Sean, thank you to what you did. I'm like, yeah. Man Ending anything would do to help and he's like nine. You don't get it. I'm trying to get my son out of that wheelchair for weeks now, and I've been line everything I didn't know what to do. He goes he's like you'll know what you did for us and I don't know how to thank you. It was like I I look at my fiancee she was crying. It was just like it was. It was quote. You'll realized how much influence you can have on people when you talked about the mental. Stay mentally healthy when you dress like that and you feel how how much you can really influence someone's I what are we doing on a costume young it's Like not much but then you get something like that like now we'll do insomnia would do absolutely this real fucking magic. So it's it really it's awesome I love doing it. You know and and now up to about one fifty balls years we've another chapter in. Florida. So it's it's been growing exponentially and you've got people coming out from all Woodward's even people who don't want dress up but they drive business when he goes, I can't dress up your but. Do all, and these costumes are all high quality out. Such a huge help. He's like eight. It's my way of helping in. Yeah it's spreading good all over. Everybody's everybody you know like you said even down to the dry cleaner, the drycleaners able to help and makes him feel good. It's good. It's it's kind of paying it forward. You know you think it's nothing you know and it's not even comparable to that. But sitting in the drive through at Dunkin donuts in the more whatever and you buy the coffee behind you you know they might have been having a shitty day. Maybe it's fucking wife left a couple of days ago, and now that clever coffee make his day at least they'll have a good day but that's what it's all about in this society unfortunately needs a fuck of a lot more of that right now. So, thank you for doing that. What was the name of that again because I want to put that in the show notes as well humble heroes, of FDA, and why Hubble Okay Why we're on instagram on facebook those. We have people. Let not about followers, keeping them up today with everything that we do in the best way to kind of keep up with all where we're going what we're doing. Awesome Bobby with. Thank you. and You shares slumped was good avenue back on Sir we had to go so quick. I've got fifty thousand other things have. Afternoon, and you gotTa work late. So but at least we got it in man at least got. I. Thank you. We'll stay in touch and maybe we'll do another episode where we can just sit around shoot the shit and have a good time thousand plan I mean. All right stay safe out there and we'll talk to you soon. All right. You guys seem to you.

Bobby Bobby Jeff Nice Mike Yeah FDA Google Long Island I Florida officer A. Captain America Rapid Response Company truckee Chris OCD Bob Deloitte Fuck Athens
Inside the Coroner's Court

Conversations

51:18 min | 2 years ago

Inside the Coroner's Court

"This is an ABC podcast. There's a coroner's court in each state in a strike area. And that's the cool that investigates help people make the deaths if the circumstances are unclear or suspicious in New South wiles. The state Carne is court publishes reports on their website. I had look at some of these reports, and I have to say the just completely fascinating. I think I was expecting a bunch of dry legal documents. But instead I found that each report begins with a short biography of the deceased person it's written in a really warm, and humane way, and there's a description of how each person died, and it's very compelling quite often. I found that the person would have been having a perfectly normal day, then something very quickly as wrong. And that's that. Hugh Dillon is a former deputy state coroner of New South Wales. And he was presided I've. Countless cases where the death comes about due to some momentary terrible misstep all through a series of blunders, and then sometimes the debt is fully intentional. Ultimately, the Karna has to rive at something. That's as close to the truth as possible heloc. You welcome. Thank you, rich. And I was surprised by how engrossed I wasn't reading some of these court reports, I think I lost an ala when I should really have been working in reading these reports this episode of six feet under. I was reading one report about a Truckee who died police officer pulled him over wasn't stripped down properly with an angry exchange young down the load spilled onto him. He films the road and got out of it. Just like that just like that. I wonder when when you dealing with like, oh that that Tom d- gigabit jumping Senate have first year. I was Karner became very, hyper vigilant. I think as a result of rating reports of deaths like this it can make you very. Very sensitive to the contingency of life. Yeah. There's lots fielded precious us oppose every life is precious. And when you see so many of these cases. You realize that? These sort of can happen to anybody. What you good a falling out of alpha crying or something? And this this guiding against it, really except through billing systems and so on and so on so if someone when someone dies why might that person's did be referred to a current school. Well, Carne is investigates sudden unexpected accidental of violent deaths, but they also they also have referred to them deaths, which not diagnosed by doctors. So for example, if a doctor when dish you medical death certificate saying that this person died naturally, then the cases referred to the Carney's for diagnosis of the cause of death. So in other words, if someone does from having a piano dropped on the the doctor would say world, violent blow was the reason for death. But a coroner has to look at the circumstances. That's right. That's right. And can the family of a deceased person? Request coronial inquest, certainly and in fact, many many in. Inquests are the result of paying of requests or prompts from from the family, some some Chris mandatory such as suspected homicides, those sort of things, but many discretionary cases such as medical increase requested by families. So who gives you this report is is that the police come to you with a report of a death that the circumstances are unclear. Yeah. Generally, the place provide the report, and that will be as a result of them attending a hospital or something like that. Where an accident saying do you have to put the funeral on hauled in that case it can sometimes lead to funerals paying lead? Yes. Because the has to be medical investigation done. I so to determine what the cause of death is have that came about my take a little time. Anyway, what are the questions you'll really asking? When you start an inquiry like that. I Christian you ask is who died so we need to identify. We possibly can who died and the carnage Zach requires that. And it also requires that we look at where the difficult, and that's not always clear when it occurred, again, not always clear, and then we have to look at the question, of course of death, which really means the physiological medical 'cause and finally required to look at what is called the manner of death, which relates to the question of the circumstances. How did this come about as the big questions? If you can't get past that first stage of defying who it is. That's the identity of that person. Do you do you proceed anyway? Yes. Yes. Of course. It's important to do that. Because whoever it is that we have before us we need to explore for how that person tied a good example of this is case identifiers ago, the body of a little baby and newborn baby was found on Meru rebates and she's being named lily grace, which is buried over knee is in suburbs. Symmetry, but we still know who she is. But someday, I hope that someone will come forward and to fire. But we had to dentistry. If we could who she was present explored all the other circumstances that we could find evidence for so you're in this kind of environment of uncertainty, and you just trying to sort of bringing or foggy picture that you trying to bring into resolution. Yeah. I in some cases, in many cases, the case is very clear, and we have those we have witnesses. We have for example, photographs we have evidence which tells you all about it. And so, for example, the case that you referred to at the start of our conversation of the very unfortunate track driver being killed that would have been very clear cut case to in piston head over to Ford when you've had the investigation is that in following always binding Quist. No. And that's that can be a problem of wrote of the deaths reported to Karna zinnias have aisles and indeed elsewhere in the strata a natural deaths for which had doctor has not provided diagnostic medical cause of death certificate, so inventory, for example. I think forty percent of deaths are reported a diagnosis pay natural in New South Wales. I magic it's roughly the same for. He percents natural death. Right. Yeah. But the wrist accidents or medical accidents or? Gigantea diocese or all sorts of other things asides this big categories. And when do you then make the decision to proceed to having a proper Enquist? Well. Pope prefers to get the medical cause of death established in that stunned by a medical investigation by frantic pathologist, and that can be done in various ways. After we get the pathologist's report. I'm sorry. I should have also said that at the same time we ask for the pathologist's report, we ask her a place report, which may be more or less. Stay tailed, depending on the on the circumstances that the case as we know it at that stage. So we'll get the place report. And the medical report analyze all of that. And in some in some cases, an inquest is required by law. So I think I said suspected homicides if a person is missing and suspected of dying, and if a person dies in place operations or of a person dies in custody where required hold an inquest in yourself by owns and when you do that who's who might be present for Enquist life. It. Usually, the family family members present and depending on the case itself. There will always be in the courtroom the carnage. Of course, we would have a counselor sitting or an advocate assisting us in a more complex inquest. We would have solicitors from the crown solicitor's of. We would have a police investigator at least one place investigator. We might have medical experts. We may have other witnesses. And then of course, the family two, plus representatives of for example, if death concerns police the place offices, and the police Commissioner would be represented and hospitals and on and on. So it's its commission of inquiry. A Royal Commissioner something on a smaller scale, it's not a trial as such not trial. No, it's it is an inquiry, which means a search for the truth. And we talk about the inquisitorial method rather than the ad serial method. So we're really trying to answer the five questions I talked about. And ultimately would try to find listens to prevent future tits as well. Can people be required to give evidence coroner's court? Yeah. Yeah. The can. And so we can. Compel witnesses to come to court and give evidence. And even if the for example, with the Fraz to avert is a person of interest a person who is in fact suspect in a in a suspected homicide that can be compelled to give evidence that will be protected by the coroner giving them a statistic it so that their evidence copy used against them in a in a criminal court or elsewhere. We can is compel people can you have people arrested or the police to arrest people, and you have passive subpoenaed things. Like, yeah, I rarely done. If but if this is refused to come to court out, they can be arrested in broad, and if they tell lies while the giving evidence is is that that considered perjury. I'm sure it is considered perjury. I I've never referred somebody. Really, I think in many years referred somebody to the authorities to be prosecuted for perjury Jesus. Usually suspected someone's not telling the truth, but it would be hard to establish beyond a reasonable doubt. And when you do when you've got a witnesses his telling story that just seems like. Shocking. Bit of fabrication into their pointing out. Now, come on. Do you? Does does does it do that? Counsel assisting or one of the other lawyers involved in the case, Matt trough examine them about that on occasion, I have suppose used my authority to to press them for the truth. One case I had concerned a fire in a panel bidding shop. I believe the penalty. Shop was burned down for insurance purposes. And there are two or three papal agai evidence. One of him was a very this sound unkind, but he was very uneducated. And I thought rather stupid person who had not been worded up very well by his Mets, and he got really confused telling the story, and when he was pressed on that he eventually he just couldn't do it anymore, and he and he shot up, and I totally me to answer the questions, and if he didn't then I'd have to think about. Citing him over furring him to be prosecuted for content. He thought about that. I've not and in my opinion. Anyway, he came back having been worded up again. And. Forceful exchange views. Yes, I'm sure there was an exchange of views and anybody he came back. He told what sounded to me like a pack of nonsense. And so anyway, I quickly dismissed him after after bet is there a jury presence for the wake of cranial Enquist, no in the UK and candidate they have juries, but in new panels the last year, I think was in two thousand knights of Jake cupcake has that was the case of the soldier who shot himself accidents in Iraq in back in two thousand and three I think that that happened. So that's the last time we've had a jury sit in a car in this case in New South byles, and I think that been abolished in in other states and territories juries determine why would you need a jury there will? Some people would argue that juries very good because the democratic that represent the community. And so they don't bring the prejudices. I guess that it might be thought people who work closely with police like Kearns sometimes too. So the jury there was one who make a finding about the cause of death. That's try. Yeah. That would they would make findings about the five questions that that I've already explained identity taking place manner and cause of death. So if you're holding an inquest, and then pretty compelling evidence starts to the that someone is about to be strongly implicated for manslaughter or murder. What would happen at that point? What would you do as the coroner? Yeah. If we get to a point when we persuaded that this enough evidence for a case to go to trial. Generally, we would stop the case there and refer the papers to the DP. We're not allowed to say, we think someone Richard five has moded such and such will I'd help you wouldn't think or indeed side that. But what we will be allowed to say is that in our opinion, unknown person has there is evidence that unknown person may have committed any doctoral events, namely motor manslaughter, which resulted in a death. And the the increase will stop the in the in the day table considered. Why using careful they are you trying to avoid prejudice in your judgment there. That's exactly right. Yeah. But don't people want you to give your opinion in such cases. Look, I'm sure a lot of people do, but there's a question of fairness and prejudice. Going back about thirty years or a number of court cases in which Carne is actually used to say things like I believe so and so did such and such and it it led to amendment of the act to prevent this. Will that would be a in the mock wouldn't a toy I mean, but you wouldn't say even that I believe it's possible that such and such. No, you went that this enormous reputational damage that can be done, of course, as well as prejudice to a fair trial. So we have to be quite careful about that. Have someone become a coroner has that happening Bri came became a car in a by accident really by accident by accident. I was a magistrate for twelve years at that point and mortally to stage in my career. Whereas feeling burned out. I was thinking about leaving and going to the bar, and my friend Mary jerem who's the newly appointed stat Carney. Heard about my. Plan to leave. And she asked me whether I'd like to come and work with her. And and I really like Marian thought probably pretty depressing work and. But I'll because I lack her, and I didn't have other plans a thought I would and become the first day of of my appointment. I was in my office new office, and a barrister friend rang me up and said you've just been appointed to the most interesting jurisdiction in us at byles. And and it is. Yeah. Like that seems to Mira my my experience with looking into the the reports themselves, you think this is going to be dry and grim and horrible actually all human life in these stories. Isn't there this whole of human live and and? And the great privilege of being a Karner. I think is that you get to sit in courtrooms or raid letters, and and in a way make people who have time, but also the people in mourn them, love them and the great incentive for coronet to do. A good job is to try and relieve the burden of sadness to provide some meaning for these deaths because what brave people really want out of a case, I think is respect for the person died respect for them and their concerns they bending questions. But also if possible that a dif- like this can be avoided in future. Yeah. So the burning question of why how did such a thing happen? How could this have happened? That's what your job is supposed. Yes. And and if we if we can answer the question why and how then we may be able to. Provide suggestions for prevention. Hugh, his a really embarrassing admission here, I thought and a lot of people meet thought that you needed some kind of medical qualification to be a coroner that you are somehow involved in the autopsy, which that's not true is it. There's no current is in trailer lawyers. But it certainly helps to have medical knowledge. Insofar as learning the mid and getting involved in autopsies have it is possible and at became possible for me to learn a lot of mids, and in fact, observe autopsies what absolute from the legal knowledge. What are the main tools off your work? Well, I think the man to frankly is the input that you get from families the inputs you get from police investigators input cheek it from experts such as fringy pathologists. But also, we recall all sorts of experts. But I I I think that the the real tool that could as have is intellectual curiosity, their intellectual curiosity and desire to if possible prevent fidgets. I think those are the real tools of some sort of inside of the human. I mean. Human nature's got to be a large part of. Of course, it is. And. And this is a real school of of human nature. I mean, you you get to his stories in made people who have incredible and extraordinary stories to tell you I've met lots of bridges paper. I've met people from all sorts of different cultures of MIT people who do all sorts of extraordinary things, but all of them have very human reactions to these deaths which is comforting really of of MIT very few very few callous sociopathic people in this in this job. I suppose you're just dealing with a lot of the time really then some sort of some awful mishap or series of abs- that. Yeah. A lot of it is very Missy, unfortunately. And and in many cases, you can't do much about that. But I think the the key is remaining hopeful that out of all of these terrible events, some good things can come even if it's any show of respect to the people have have lost somebody. I think one of the very important things about the cranial system is that it is the state the community paying respect to individual people have died and the and the very very families. What if there's a situation, I'm sure this happens, not not irregularly where you suspect. The may have been somewhat enough use this too many more wrongful death year or something my bed, and you need to you really do need to order that. An autopsy be performed on someone in the family objects that you ride the which is the family. This is difficult, of course. And one of the good things that Glebe believe in other granules. Systems to. We have a very good team of liaison offices family. The counselors is colleges who are very skilled at talking people through this difficult problems. There are groups, and then I didn't have to have religious belief. But but some religious groups are just. Muslims and Jews and. And others have a cultural and religious objection to dissection of the body. I want to bury their loved ones home. But sometimes for example in America, so homicide case, it is necessary to conduct an autopsy and Bunn notch people get that. And I get because they traded respectfully, and and sensitively would you talk to the family? And would you do it from the bench or also away from the bench, wouldn't generally I wouldn't generally talk to families before the case if we're going to hold an inquest, I would sometimes talk to families if we're not hauling Enquist because I want to know things, and we can explain with that only an inquest or something like that certainly in court in the inquest talk I talk to regularly, and I think most Carnoustie talk directly to family members. Very first thing you do once you've taken appearances from the lowest sitting at the table is speak directly to the family and welcome them and acknowledge them and. And give them an explanation of what we're trying to do. But also acknowledge their distress and their hopes that we'll find something out. That's pro forma thing. You will do that doesn't matter. Of course. Welcome to family and and speak for them to them respectfully and kindly. It's it's really necessary thing to do, but they are the central people are the most important people in the courtroom you have to acknowledge him. But it's the human thing to do. Anyway. Yeah. Like, I say in the report the thing that really is one of the other things really struck me as this country. Very nice that's often minute about the deceased person that an innovation or is that been going on since the dot to a short biographies. That's not ridden. Like a policeman at the scene of a crime written by someone. It's not it's not Gashi or anything. But it's just in a kind of human y. Yeah. No. I I certainly think it has changed over the last ticket in news at byles the coroner's reports that I used to raid bernazard, younger lawyer and so forth. Two or three pages of drive pretty Dr staff without much human material in the. Island from Michael bonds is the penultimate stead Karna that he did this in Quinson. And this is something I learned a new car. And so I started opting it, and I think it's a common practice anyway atmosphere heaven, the courtroom is it one of those kind of antique rooms wainscoting on the walls judge sitting on the bench. Did you work in a humane environment? Look at it could be much more egalitarian the benches. Hi, it's it looks like a fairly typical criminal courtroom who civil courtroom. I'm sure if if we turn their minds to we could redesign a courtroom that we would be more humanly encouraging when family members to what state of mind that tend to be William different stats mind. Some people angry I've had. Some people get very angry and educated in courtrooms. Most people though, I think come hopefully and respectfully. And. And employs an enormous amount of trust in you. You're listening to conversations with Richard Fidler. So once you sort of got to the bottom of some death by a whole bunch of mishaps, for example, you release recommendations want you what kind of whites to these recommendations carry with government agencies, and the lock that you you want to read recommendations, I'd really like to know that because it's hard to hard to work out. Some agencies are very responsive and thoughtful and an effect. Come to an inquest thinking about recommendations that might arise out of this. I could example of this is the fire service Faren risking use. Piles others, I think are bit more defensive and more guarded in their spots. It is difficult. Sometimes I think for some agencies like the police to accept criticism. Just about every Stipe bureaucracies guy to put up the drawbridge. I think most the time to tell you put these things to the my suppose, but by and large tend to be very good at about any kind of. Some move and others. And I think that rather depends on who's running those agencies. So. Do you have the power to compel in a way orthodontist, but you do to compel the recommendations be adopted or you bring them to ministers? We we send him to ministers. We don't have a power to compel. And frankly, those some people might think would be a good idea to compel agencies to adopt recommendations. I think I think that's a bad idea. And there isn't is because frankly, not all recommendations, very wonderful. Some of them are I've been since rather poorly judged and. And very impractical recommendations mad so robust recommendations have to be will fall through and the bit of thought through. They are the more likely that accepted far related cases. Like was a fireman ensuing in Quakers hill in New South Wales where you had recommendations, what are you? What are you seeing there with those kinds of recommendations adopted the first thing about that is that was a terrible case in which fourteen people died and most of those lives would have been saved or the the Ditz prevented if there had been sprinklers installed in the in the nursing home. Dan, the New South byles government to it's very correct credit following that fire immediately ordered that sprinklers being stolen in similar sorts of facilities all over the state. So it wasn't necessary. For me to recommend the sprinklers being stalled in seeing homes and lack facilities, but I didn't make a number of recommendations. I'm forgotten quite how many, but is about a dozen. I think relating to various things to do with opera. Might apertures. The potty that regular health practitioners and American vid. The person who started the fire was a drug addicted nurse. So how health practitioners managed and regulated amid Ricky recommendations about that? And various other things of that sort of Niger have the fire service might improve the technology and whatnot. The recommendations part of your report a big thing for the families of the decision tremendously dick thing because as I was saying earlier on. What families hope will come out of this terrible event? That has devastated them is that their experience went repeated for others by others. You told me about the case of a night year old boy called his Riley Pilly whose death was reported to the coral to me. But that's the case. Yeah. It's rally Pilla was a an eight year old boy who died in. I think two thousand seven and it was a very very difficult experience for his parents because he contracted bacterial meningitis he became the. And he was taken first to JP who initially thought he probably was suffering from some sort of viral thing possible possibly even food poisoning. Something like that. And he was given the usual treatment the problem for the doctors. And there were six of them over over the next week is sore him in failed to diagnose his condition was that he didn't have all the usual signs of meningitis such as spot or Arash, those two things. So it looked at least according to the confounding signs, very ambiguous. It could have been a cold or a flu or something that Niger was disturbing about this case was that he was taken to two hospitals as well as seeing his JP a number of times and all the while long. What was not recognized was that this was deteriorating getting very very seek, and that wasn't recognized really into the last dial tone is life. So we held an inquest in one of the interesting things that I I thought arose out of it. Whether a number of interesting things one of the things that was very eliminating for me was some work. We did on the difficulty of diagnosis and diagnosis is not not. Of course, there's a scientific passes tools are not and it is difficult in when signs and symptoms are big use to necessarily to diagnose the actual cause of the illness. That doesn't really matter though, many cases because what is important to recognize is when a patient is to tear rating and crashing because whatever you do whatever the real disease is you've got to deal with that you've got to deal with with the tier ration. And so because the fact that he was being taken from two different doctors at different emergency units and a different GP that just wasn't absurd. In his deterioration. And it wasn't being picked up and one of the disturbing things about this was that. Most of doctors, of course, in emergency departments and j pays busy AP's practices, a very busy and they're saying large numbers of passions. And so on and so forth. But if they don't get a real history of say the time line that they're just say what they say then and there, and what was so sad for this family. Really? I think was that they felt that would be Nord until they got to the GP again towards the end of the week that I felt that would paying pressed off. But we all know that the parents know that you'll better than anybody else. Watch him like hawks. That's that's what happens had the closest and most sustained if not the best informed. But no most the closest must've Steinem version of the kid. Correct. And that that's a principle of public health. It's taught to doctors listen to the mother listen to the parents, and they felt the parents felt that they were not being listened to until. You know, I gotta the last pass. Just putting that case to one side. Whether this is this not, I don't know. But but. Often in the past in radio. We're often talking about situations where we have emergency health workers doctors. Working particularly trainee. Once we Insein our insane stretches of Tom. I just wanna how often as a Karna you have to sort of look at the situation with some horribly exhausted political has made a misdiagnosis. Judah sheer exhaustion as exercise poor judgement. We do have two quite a lot. And in fact, I did quite a lot of medical cases, myself, medical, inquests and examined a lot more medical cases that didn't go to Enquist, and I I really feel for these people to shattering event for them. And as as I've just explained in relation to Israel, very often, the signs and symptoms are big us or confounding. And we under pressure. You're looking for patents. Of course. There are the must be a lot of mistakes made the time for salt in deaths or even serious illness. What we do know is that for every new miss. The story for every every critical incident, death or or as serious mishap. This appear mid that that develops under that of of cases court just in time and tone and of Papa successful diagnosis, correct treatment, someone goes home. It's not romantic, it's better. And that's fine. Yeah. Name is. Mentioned police sometimes get their backs up when you have a recommendation, the medical proficient that I tend to receive recommendations from you as a person who's not a doctor, but nonetheless, who's got some inside today tend to take these recommendations from current as well, the do actually my experience with New South, my health and medical practitioners generally has been very different from the way the police approaching quiz. That's not to be in the place and not a monolith. Some some place a much more. I've been minded and and and indeed. Careful and and compassionate towards families who have lost someone in a place abrasion intone have there. But generally speaking, I think medical practitioners peps because I belong to a carrying proficient a more open to what might be saying some form of correction than. Security forces often when you're holding Enquist if you know if the person's been dead for quite some time, then evidence, I suppose quality of evidence to tear at a time. There's a case study here of a woman named Joyce Jemaine and from two thousand nights, can you tell me about her case or just two men's death is the most mysterious death that I took within nine years as a Karna. She was. An American woman who came out to a stranger in the early eighties. Some rumor that she might appear nectar Bonani way, she came out here. She developed mental health problems. She live quietly and peacefully in darling host sorry Huhne's and about a week after her death because the mental health team that she was working with hadn't seen over week or so we're concerned about her the place break into flat and found dead. What state was she when they found? In a very strange state at first cloud. She would probably think that she died. Violently. Clothing was in disarray. There was at strange hard hat on his stomach a hothead hothead her construction workers had head. There was a accord of an iron around her neck. And there were there were various things in her bathroom, and laundry, which were out of place the place look deserted. Ben ransacked had anything been stolen from the place. Time to know. But it didn't appeal there was money found in the flat. So it seems unlikely robbery was a motive. Well, you know, we really don't know. So she's fending long on the floor. And she's got clothes strewn about dress pulled up to a Nick hot head on her body is according to Nick, that's right. So what do you do with that? Well, I what did happen was that? The affirmative pathologist went from glade with the place. Investigators in the frenzy experts frenzy convinced Gators and search for. Well, trying to find clues as to the cause of death. That's the first thing. She had turned that very superficial injuries the code around her neck had not inflicted a fatal injury. All really, right. Yeah. But she hadn't been hanged. She had not been hanged and she hadn't been strangled. There was no evidence of that. Now, physical evidence of it I pinpoint to put cause a medical cause of day. No. So the pathologist came up with three hypotheses icon from the mall, but. It looks on the face of it that she may well have died more people quote on natural death. But how she got into this situation with this amazing state of disarray is hard to know one of the one of the curious features of this case is that. In the in the building that she lived in. There are a number of people who used and sold drugs and one of the people who became a person of interest of name him. He was a young guy. I said it. Can from a Muslim background and it was. He was the person who it alternately turned that probably I found her dead. Hadn't run police ring police because at the time he was on an ice binge and he presumably didn't want to speak to them in that state. He also probably figured out that found with the did body in her flat was likely to raise suspicions in a state of. In that site that he was in exactly. So in any event. For quite a while the police, and indeed I very suspicious of him. But I can't have you that it was unlikely that he had her. I think what happened bows that she. She had somehow or other. Maybe died naturally or something that happened. Maybe she'd even died of fried. I don't know. But that he had come into flat possibly in the company of others. And then been surprised he had been in her flat. Sometime before with a few others who are taking drugs when she was not fair somebody had access to have flat. And and then he he says that he got in to have had because if I'm the door open, and so this ghastly scene worked in founded. And the fact that she hadn't been found for week. Was that one reason why so hot it was medically? The course of death years because. One of the things that can happen in a buddy starts to deteriorate is that some of the signs of violence disappear. So for example, if you are smothered. Little pinpoint hemorrhages occur in your in the watts of your eyes, they call particu images. So it's possible vici was smothered without having been actually strangled. But we don't know that. That's. Relation foot that the Nitra of the circumstances in which he's had something ritualistic about it. I mean, it sounds like to me. I mean, pretty weird one of the most strange aspects of this was that this young guy guy when he was taking us nice being used to shave parodies, head with a razor. And he had also when he was on a nice binge. He's also known to where hard hat and then his day. I was found on this hard hat. So he denied that the had had was his, but it might have been. Nice. Judgements body was also found with part of her pubic A-share, which is one of the weirdest things. I've ever heard of. This young fellow never seen. A naked woman was not sexually interested in women, and he came from a very strict Muslim background. So he was very respectful of women in as what people can do. And they're on is. So what happens when you cut step wish causing circumstances death like that where we hold an inquest in the hope that the publicity might generate some evidence. And in fact, we publicized the hauling of this inquest. But unfortunately, nothing emerged that we didn't already know how long this this mystery of her death will ever be solved. The personally I think it's unlikely. And this someone who was there when she got the cord around her neck, emerges. And I doubt that that's going to happen. I don't think we'll ever know. I think that's a shame. He heavy. When was the first time you came into contact with the coroner was it around, a parent's death. Yes. My father died in December ninety ninety three which as you can imagine as it is an incredible shock to the family. He died at sea of the Western Australian coast. It was then working for the bitch p fleet in the all carriers. So when he was found dead the ship pulled into Fremantle when his body was taking a shore. And an autopsy was conducted. So we. And that's the first time. So I remember have very bewildering and confusing and indeed shocking. His death was to us. It turned out to be a natural death. But the whole scenario just not knowing he died, very shocking. So I have a strong sense of what people can confronting the experience of of a coronial death much feel like different was that prices into how you might run a process now will it was pretty straightforward. We got a letter from the Karna not long afterwards saying so sorry, the loss suffered the cause of death was. Issues. And and that was an autopsy down. There was no inquest. So I think these days there would be much more investigation done. There was no police reporters are somewhere. We would do a police report in in a similar case. We'll get a place investigation done. I should say. You lift the CORUS court couple of years ago. What made you want to leave? Did you want to leave? Didn't really want to leave. I was really told that my time as told by the magistrate and in effect that my time was up. I had I've been there for nine years at the time. You told me I've been there for about is and corn is part of the local court of New South Wales. So it was indicating that time for somebody else to have go, really. So it's your own a circuit. Really? So, you know, I would just imagine. You'd just get it'd be like the, I don't know. You get appointed that position you'd stay there to pretty much you wanted to go. Yeah. I wish that were the case. And I would have loved to have said, I think a lot more to contribute, and your that's the way the system bread. And so then you just what did you want to do after that? Then if you wasn't entirely sure. In fact, I spent the year writing a book not about is that the second mobile an of the sycamore war. And now started to pitch on the cranial system in news at bio, some very happy to be involved in the system in other strenuous coronial systems standardized between the state government. Sadly, not the tour has the best system. Was. The great thing about the Victorian system is specialist court to standalone specialist court people aren't shuffled in and out the magistrates by the chief magistrate and Secondly, and this is the most important thing they have a dedicated research unit whose specific task is to try to work out ways. They're epidemiologists that tried to identify Petain's of causes of death. And then was of preventing those deaths. All really, so they're looking at what what you'd call metadata. They're looking at the overall patents of time. Yeah. And we don't do that in news, or at least we do it on an ad hoc basis. If people have the time and energy, but we don't have a dedicated research unit would be an enormous improvement to the new southbound system. And I believe that the government is considering this. But it would be an enormous improvement of our system if we had a unit like that. So why aren't they stand at us? Ran the control again, I suppose you wouldn't get this experimentation like you saying in Victoria, guys, if you didn't if that were standard on well, it's the constitution where fibrillation there's a state each state has its own cranial system. It's territory has its own system the education systems been standardized national federally to a credit or lesser extent. I think a model a model act and a model system would be very good thing. But what I would really love to see would be all strategy restrictions. Modelling themselves on Victoria. This kind of court viewed in legal circles like you said they win when you go to point it to the cardinals. Go to strip yourself amenaces a bit bleak depressing. Is it common listening like that? I think it saying like that from the outside, but. On the first time the job, I was in my new office, and a barrister friend of mine rang me up and said might either slanted in the most interesting jurisdiction in years out byles, and he was right? And it was and it was it was one of the best job. I've ever had my life. I loved working there does the court treat, the death of very wealthy and powerful person. Exactly the same way would for someone like Joyce, your mind example, someone who's unknown who as middle who dies alone who has no money, look like to think, so, but the real the real difference is that people with the money can afford poise and people who don't have money can be well represented by the legal aid commission, or by the average legal service, for example. But in many many cases that have legal support. So. Right waterson. Professor rive Waterson at a conference last week said you get out of an inquest what you put into it. And I think that's true. So there is an advantage in having money. What a festive letting to this has been through. What goes on in the coroner's court? Maybe we're just not we've been too squeamish in the past to look closely, and there's a whole world in revelatory about human nature, as well, what a pleasure to speak with you, Hugh. Thank you so much. Thank you. Richard ABC dot net. Useless compensations. I'm Richard five. Thanks for listening. Been listening to a podcast of conversations with Richard Fidler. For more conversations interviews, please go to the website ABC dot net slash conversations. He can discover more ABC podcasts. Live radio exclusives on the ABC. Listen.

New South Wales Hugh Dillon Carne ABC investigator Richard Fidler Carney Karna perjury Enquist New South byles Enquist Richard Joyce Jemaine Niger Karner Zach Chris Truckee Tom
17 - Listener Ghost Stories & More Pumpkin Beer

Whores Talk Horror

46:10 min | 1 year ago

17 - Listener Ghost Stories & More Pumpkin Beer

"Welcome fours talk or we're not really horse. We just like word word. Play Hello and welcome to horse talk horror. I'm Sharon I'm Melinda and today we're going to be doing a special Halloween episode food and we have so much fun doing a Pumpkin beer tasting a couple of episodes ago renewed again. We're going to do it again and uh-huh we're going to start out with and we're also going to tell ghost stories that you lovely people run into us But first we're going to start out with with Dr Chad Punk L.. In the seven percent alcohol by volume and it just says Brown Ale brewed with Pumpkin in in spices. And this is from Doc. Fish head brewery in Milton Delaware. And it's a really cute label with a bunch of little pumpkin cartoons cartoony faces. They're like rock. It's like a rock band. Pumpkin rock band all right. So let's taste this. One cheers cheers a halloween. It's good yeah I like it. It's it's a little bit pumpkin any little bit of cinnamon in there. It's a nice amber you're colored L.. Not Too light not too dark but I get. It's not super heavy in the Pumpkins in spaces but it's it's very dry. I would drink this. Yeah I could drink a few of these. Yeah for sure. So I'm really excited about this episode and I just want to thank everyone who took the time to write join us. We really really appreciate it. And we would love to do a bunch of these episodes so keep writing in your stories please. Because because I really really enjoy reading people's go stories and this first story comes to us from Andrea in Colorado. Oh in my husband and I used to be full time musicians and we had a house Gig at a place. SDS Park Colorado called. Mary's Lake Lodge. The Lodge has a long history including housing bricusse patience and recovering World War One vets. There was also talk of Stephen King's aunt owning in a condo at the lodge during the time that he wrote the shining and if you set foot opponents corridors you might have felt an undeniable craziness that was eerily Lee similar to the infamous. Hallways the little boy character road his big wheel through I was thrilled to have house gig there as a sensitive I could immediately immediately feel how incredibly haunted. This place was at that time in my life I was doing a little bit of ghost investigating inspired by all those ghost. Hunting King Television shows that have become so popular. The ones that many loves to Binge Watch and Mary's Lake Lodge did not disappoint in the ghost department every single time we investigated we experienced some type of supernatural activity. One particular evening our investigation turned a bit terrifying hang. The hotel always gave a room where we had a GIG and this night my husband had decided to retire early and did not join us. We had brought our doggy harlow. Oh on a cute name. We brought our doggy harlow with us and she was waiting in the room. I was comforted that. She would not be aligned with the spirits that my husband might be there with her her. At that point the customers had cleared out of the restaurant and bar area and I began the investigation with the bartender. His girlfriend and one of the servers it was probably probably a little after midnight at this point. The first thing that kept happening during this investigation was a constant and recurring sound from the men's bathroom and incredibly loud bang over and over and over it sounded like steel toed. Boots kicking the vent. It was a sound that none of the employees or or I had ever heard before and the craziest part of it was at the moment that one of the guys went into the bathroom and stopped and the moment that they left the bathroom it started started up again. This continued throughout our investigation and became the backdrop for the spooky activity that we experienced that night. We were using the bartender. Your cell phone to record activity and found that we were able to see things on the cellphone that we could not see with our own eyes. It was strange at one point. We saw black black mass floating across his viewfinder and captured a picture of it. It was without form and had very jagged edges. Not One of US actually really saw directly but everyone thought moving through the viewfinder. That's that's awesome. That's awesome and also be. Thank you the right after this occurred. We had the camera focus on a statue that was on the countertop directly across from the men's bathroom keep in mind and we are still hearing the constant banging coming from the bathroom. The statue is a replica of a saint. And his neck was outstretched and looking up as we All looked at the statue through the viewfinder of the camera. The face of the statue started to change up again. We could only see through the viewfinder the camera and not by looking directly at it and the new face began forming in the neck of the statue. Oh my God my God. I have not heard this by the way WHO and the new face was the most cliche evil face. None of us could believe what we are. Seeing being as a sensitive I could feel the dark energy of this entity and I believe that we are dealing with an entity that night not the human spirit and a dark entity certainly certainly not a light one. At this point in the investigation the bartenders girlfriend was curled up in a ball on the couch in the lobby. Like I would probably be. I know right right. She was terrified and had had enough. Truthfully I was getting a bit terrified to and that was unusual for me as I believe that most spirits are just people without a physical body who are lost looking to move on and that never scared me but this thing that we were interacting with this thing was truly shaking the core and all that I wanted to get far far away from it so we mutually decided to under investigation. It was around three in the morning at this this point anyway and ever got so. They were there for like three hours. Oh my God. That's how paranormal investigators roll man. Yeah and everyone left lodge and went home. I want him to a room and told my husband what adjust happen as we were talking about the investigation we realized that we we were the only guest in the lodge that evening off bucks. Oh man there is no way that I was GONNA say the rest of the night and we literally literally flood Mary's Lake Lodge in the wee hours of the morning. Good choice with our doggy Haro. I felt so protective of her and of my husband and and we announced before getting into the car that any spirit that maybe following us was absolutely unwelcome and forbidden to join us any further. That's good yeah a good job. I will never forget that evening. Or the feeling that accompanied at an all investigations. It was the closest feeling to pure very evil. I have ever experienced. Whoa thank you Andrew for that story? That is very very creepy. I definitely One of the things on my bucket list I should say is to go to the Stanley Hotel and real and Asti is and I was writing Talking a little bit Back and forth with Andrea and. She said that if we ever come out to Colorado she would take US ghost hunting. Oh my God that that'd be Awesome Emmy Amazing Andrea thank you. Yeah this is amazing. Also and funny so she said that there was a rumor. That like Stephen King's aunt had a place up there or something Might explain how he ended up at the Stanley To have his experience that inspired the shining. Exactly yeah maybe she could elaborate on that we ever got to visit. Is it her and tell us a little more of this when we go out. 'cause yeah I think we definitely need to go out there totally. That'd be amazing. All right thank you so much. I was a great a great story. Thank you Andrea Art Mindy. So ooh I was talking the whole time so I didn't have a chance to finish my beer but while I'm finishing this beer would you like to. You described the next bear that we're going to try. Oh yes the next beer is. I think I've had this one. Actually it's warlock by A Southern Tier Brewing Company. It's an imperial pumpkin stout. It's a biggie. It's eight point six. What is it? ABC News or whatever alcohol all by volume ABC News. I Dunno volume starts with a V.. Not a you would. This is. Why all my unit it? Yeah that's what I was going for. Mendis already drunk and they don't have any cute little saying really on it it. It's just the evil Pumpkin head wearing a hat and I kind of feel like that really says it all. Is there no description about now. They're not really and I kinda like that because because it kind of makes it a little crear because it does say it's limited edition and it's it's Pumpkin stout so all right. So let's pour this one and try it as I like Chug my dogfish head. Oh Jesus that's been poor mindy. Do you want to give Spencer. This is really really good. Stout is really good style. I Love Sour Beers and I love dark beers so agreed. It's very I could totally drink this real easy all day and it. I mean eight point six. What did I say? ABC News. I'm holding by that sticking about thank you clearly. I need more beer clearly. Maybe you should finish that after reader story. So you're not like slurring all your name goes honey. I'm telling a story that stained it's a good dessert beer. Yeah Yeah Yeah. It's just that I keep easily get buried drunk very quickly because it's very delicious and is is really good. I think it'd go go like some dark chocolate Um The pumpkin factor on this one. It tastes like your typical stout with a little bit of spice to it. It's got got a good cinema. Mini smell yeah. Oh Yeah surprisingly because it's dark stout beer but it's delicious and we didn't rate the first one. The pumpkin Dan the doctors had Pumpkin L.. I would give that a three point seven five. I'll go with that but it is a good like kind of it's not as heavy. Yeah like Dragan kind of your thirsty. It's a good drink. I thought it was really easily drinkable. If that makes any sense at all in this one I would give a four I think for sure yes maybe even a four point two you know. How much do you know he could go three point one? I'M GONNA I'm GonNa give this one actually a four point two five still my favorite though. Is that Voodoo ranger with. That was so guy. I've been buying that a lot since we tasted it. It's so delicious. I should do that you you should do that. Thank you. gave me a good idea. My favorite pumpkin analysts coming up. But that's a teaser for later what what's up next. What do you got way so? This story came to us from instagram from witchy woman. It's not there's not really title so I'm just going to jump right in and here got my mom. I two and I were sitting in the living room. My grandma on my mom's side had just passed a few months ago. At this point she had a lengthy battle battle with brain cancer. We always have lots of family pictures on the wall. This is mostly because of that grandmother. I think she always really liked the holidays. And and family pictures and making memories and things for people my mom and my aunts. We're having a hard time with the death of their mother which was expected they still do. Sometimes and it's been years. I hear that there have been accounts by family and friends that stay at my house a couple of times that involve my grandma. Mom said something along along the lines of. I don't want to put up the Christmas tree this year. It doesn't feel the same without mom. We had picture on the wall behind the TV of two of my cousins with a Christmas tree in the back as my mom said this the picture flew off the wall and into the middle of the floor so we all take each other and said grandma gramma said yes you are and I just want to throw in here that I love this idea of strong grant opinionated grandmothers because I talked in a previous episode about one of my grandmothers mothers. That kind of taught US lesson. Today she passed but I have my other. Grandmother loved the song. I just called to say I love you by Stevie wonder and to this day like literally. My cousin gave birth to a baby a few weeks ago and the very next day I heard that song we always hear that song like accompanying being some sort of like life event or something like that so big family moment exactly so I can. I can totally empathize with this. I think that's awesome that grandma's grandma's are like no grandma. This is the way it is and I'm minute putting up the faulk injury and our writer also had another thing that I thought was really funny and just wanted to read it. She said that she also had some paranormal activity in her home and she writes years later. I saw white figure in my doorway. That moved my mom dad and I were living at his house together before the two thousand eight recession and it was around Halloween. I was little enough to still have a baby doll. Like eight ish which you don't really have to justify having a baby doll and your age I still sleep with teddy bear so whatever and and I looked up at the ceiling and saw shadows that were scary to a little kid which on a broom an at bat some of her examples so scared corrupt. My Baby Doll and hopped the baby gate like a tiny criminal getting away from police to crawl in bed with my mom swears it was just a bad dream. I swear that they chase me down the hall. H- that baby. I honestly told that last part seriously because I just wanted to say that phrase Hop the baby gate like tiny criminal getting away from the police. That's great but I yeah assertive grandmothers opinionated grandmothers and Shadows thank you. What you woman Sharon do you even another scary story for us? I do have another scary story. This is a ghost story that was sent to us from cody. And she's Cody loves HOR ON INSTAGRAM. Right on Instagram me up. Sharon specifically texted me and was like okay so this this this person send us a message on instagram. Do not read this story. 'cause I wanna read it to you. So I'm I'm dying here this and hero. When I was in middle school I stayed at the notoriously haunted truckee hotel and Lake Tahoe for a family? Ski Trip built in Eighteen. Seventy three a stage coach shop. You can imagine the rich history within its walls at check in. My Dad Jokingly asked the hotel is haunted to which they are applied very as they head is the key to the fourth floor room. They said they had a number of known spirits including the ghost of a little girl girl who haunted the fourth floor. Great she likes to hang out in the mechanical room and caused blackouts they added. We got outdoor room. I confirmed on the hotel. Fire Map that the staff only room across remote was in fact the mechanical room. Naturally I was thrilled really. Wow okay some background info. A girl was kidnapped. Brought to the truckee hotel and murdered in a bathtub on on the fourth floor. Oh my God. What if that was in the room that they stayed in holy Shit and they weren't kidding about those blackout either? For the duration the stay they probably happen been once a night and usually lasted for our on. New Year's Eve had just begun flat ironing my hair when the power went out very annoyed I hi mark out. The Mechanical Room Door gave three loud knacks probably much louder than that and said. Can you please turn the lights back on. I hear you girl you know you. Can't you leave the hotel with like half Frizzy Z.. Hair so I was blow. Drying my hair pins and that was good thinking in a split second later they were back on ice later that night. We were having dinner at the hotel restaurant. When I realized I left my camera in the room I convinced my dad to go retrieve it for me? I snuck behind him up four flights of stairs and screamed boo at the top. He screamed and then joked that the woman we pass Zahra looked like a ghost shut up but she was probably does attending a costume. Party on New Year's Eve okay. I was confused because I had been trailing him the entire time and saw no one my insisted we pass it a woman who looked like she had just stepped out of the wild wild west and a large urge. Pioneer style gown. Both a little freaked out. We tried to find the camera as quickly as possible so we can get out of there as we looked. We heard loud knocking on the door to our room room several times but of course the hallway was md every time. We didn't find the camera until the following day in side the mini. Yeah and. I'm sure they did not place that there to this day. My Dad's still stands by seeing that woman on the stairs and the hotel is frequented by paranormal investigators. Mike God that's awesome. Wow I did a little digging on a little extra info on the truckee hotels. I've never heard of it and I've never been Lake Tahoe. Also on my bucket list because It looks absolutely gorgeous. And when I was looking up INFO on the haunted truckee hotel. Apparently that whole area of Lake Tahoe so is very very haunted. So truck was a town of the wild west. Oh and I should say sorry This information comes from the cage. J M truckee blog in their piece titled Tales of a haunted trekkie. So truck was town of the wild west one of the first legends of truckee. Lucky is the Donner Party. which we all know that story and lasts podcast on the left? They actually have a really good donner party. Eh multi part episodes they dig deep Li. Listen to that if you want to know the real story of the Donner Party. anyways the Torius party was trapped in truckee because of an early October storm. The tails made famous by the party's resort to cannibalism to survive the truck. Utah has seen a lot of activity tippety from the living world and beyond since eighteen. Seventy three the hotel has welcome stage. Coast guests on their travels across California after three name changes agreed a great fire and thousands of guests. Oh my God there is one thing that has stayed the ghost though. I is of a little girl that was murdered in about sub on the fourth floor for Ding Ding. Ding guest here her running on the halls at night maybe do escape her assailants. That's horrible. Really horrible The next is the lady in red architect. Ron Gaunt a twenty plus year. A truckee resident walked into one of the hotel rooms and instantly only felt a cold chill. There was a woman in a red dress long velvet definitely of this time period kind of very very similar to what cody is dance. That's what I was totally just thinking. Yeah she walked into another room with no doors or windows and disappeared said gaunt. I saw the person clear as day. Then she was gone. The hair stood up on my arms and a chill went down my spat and so that is a a little story about truckee. And thank you cody. That was an awesome story. And you seem like a very bad bad ass person for for not like totally freaking out everything that you experience there us kind of like took charge. Please put the electricity back on. I gotta get my hair done. Don't mess with a girl and she's trying to get ready. No saying Oh you don't do that and I like the ghost respected that awesome great. Okay Oh yeah. No happy hairs done my bad sorry. What do we drink in now? Sharon I'm asking because this is my favorite so now we have another southern tier beer the original king imperial Pumpkin Ale Pumpkin Pie and a glass. It really is. It's described on the bottle and it is eight point six. Ab You okay. You could stop making fun of me now. Never Never God. It's been years since I've had the original pump king. Woo ooh yeah. This is very very pumpkin. -I this is the king of Pumpkin Al's literally this as far as I can. Just be making this up right now but this may have been the first pumpkin beer ever created. I think it was in the Bible. Actually I was GONNA say this is for sure the first Pumpkin L. That I've ever tasted and this is the L. at like two halloweens ago. Just odilon because it was like super available in stores and I was like bring it and this is the Pumpkin beer that I think the whole pumpkin trend. But it's it's really good. It's the best Pumpkin I've ever had. I Love I love it. I'm still GONNA go buy atomic grainger because I liked. That was good. I liked the extra spices and heat. This is good though. I'll give this. This gives a four point five for me. He for sure gets a four for me. I like the warlock butter. I mean. They're both here. Here's a good beer. That's a good point. The warlock is good. I just like this one. Because it's worse enemy Pumpkin -I in my opinion but like me. I can't talk even sober all right. Well then that's perfect tells another story many okay so this next story. It was actually told to me. But I'm going to use instead of the actual names of the people in a US. The names Tina Tina. Nancy and Glen so the story comes to us from Tina. The story is as follows a number of years ago. Tina and some of her friends friends. We're going to go visit some on houses and Hanin Woods and the pick up their Fred Nancy who lived at the time well in what was at that time a very a rural area. It's not so much anymore but at the time that was like a lot of firmly underground so it was an October evening to to set the scene and there it was foggy and I think they even said that the moon was out. They pull up to Nancy's house and all the ladies get out the car and go to the front door and ring the doorbell now. It's important to note that Nancy's house first of all was completely dark. Like not even a light in the living room the porch light with an even on but the other thing I should mention is that Nancy had a dog and that dog was very vocal about everything everything and when they rang the doorbell. They didn't hear the dog so everybody kind of looked at each other like. Oh that's weird. Why isn't the dog barking? Suddenly are they heard a loud crash in the street behind them they all turned around and looked and saw nothing right. But they're like okay. This is just weird but okay. They ring the doorbell again. Still no noise whatsoever from the dog or any movement inside when suddenly one of the ladies turned around and saw a masked figure Alan black come around the corner of the House and charge at this group of women on the front work. Oh Tina had said to me. So what did we do. We were in a group together. Did we fight did we. Did we try to throw 'em off guard. No we all like fell back against the front door and like like one of the friends. I think like slid down the door like almost phoenix. If this was a horror movie we'd be dead finally there obviously there Fight or flight response did not kick nothing. I panic and fall so at at this point now they hear laughter from behind the front door and the front door opens. And it's Nancy and the figure that rush them is also laughing takes off the mask. Ask Her husband. Glenn Oh Jesus so I guess now. I got the backstory and what happened. This plan came together like five minutes before they showed up which is amazing into me so nancy and Glen. We're like okay. Yes it's foggy. It's kind of spooky. What can we do to freak them out and Glenn had this? I would like a plastic tubing from something and he was like well. I'M GONNA throw this in the street as a distraction and Nancy specifically told me I I thought that was a stupid idea. I thought it was going to throw everybody off. You know ruin the surprise. Well apparently not because it did exactly what it was supposed to do. Is it through all the ladies off guard. And then they were not expecting Glenn who purposely dressed up all creepy ran around the corner charged at them and Nancy said that she was standing behind the door and all she heard was like a whoosh noise all the women just fell back against the door and they put the dog for the record in the backyard so he never next question. How do they are the DI? He never heard the doorbell rang. And like I don't think it can be reproduced because because at the time again. This area was very rural whereas of course now it's more built up but it was just a perfect setting and Nancy still to this day as like I. I still think it's hilarious that this even happened because it was a five minute quick decision that we made before they got here and I love when people scare people nath like one of my favorite stories and worked clearly because yet like Nancy literally was like I heard a straight up up wash is all the ladies fell back and the door and Tina was like. Yeah great like we failed completely and also Glenn I should add is probably lucky that they failed because they could beat the shit out of him in response to the point like they. They took a chance with that but I would hate off off. I always wonder you know you hear these stories on like I survived. Now we're people's like Fight or flight response just kicks in and luckily knock on wood. Yup there's never really been an instance in my life where it had to kicked in like that so I always wonder. We're both hyper aware. Nowadays uh-huh just by listening to like my favorite murder and in reading like the true crime book that we read and watching the documentaries watching the news a lot of watch the news because that's too terrifying. Which Watch you know like Ted Bundy documentaries instead but yeah like we both? I feel like I know so much but you never know how you will react in that moment. And that's about to like what would I do. I do remember one time I was in the living room and I had already been my bedroom but then I heard the door open by itself and both of my cats turned which is what was my cue to be we like okay. That wasn't just me and actually what I did was. I unlocked my front door. So if I had to get out quickly I could grabbed a giant knife from my kitchen and then went and checked it out. Yep but that was the only time I if I was taken by surprise like this. I have no idea what what I would do or hard react yet win. Spencer goes out of town which he travels for work a lot. And I'm by myself. Obviously I stay home and watch true crime docu with the door locked securely with them on but when I go to bed did I lock our bedroom door. I take a floor fan and put it in front of the door so that if someone opened the door it would knock the fan over at eighty. In which would start on me to wake me up and then I have this huge like this big heavy metal sculpture of a chair. There's like this cool looking. Tim Burton esque looking chair. That is on our dresser that I keep just close to my bed because it's about a foot long and it's easy to like wheeled and if someone like came into my bedroom I could just like jump up and grab it and like him over the ahead with it and it would either kill them but it would either kill them or knock them out it would definitely knock them out and obviously spends her and I have created. You know escape plans if someone does like come into our bedroom in the middle of the night so oh yeah I have my front door. There's a closet right by it and I always think think of scream. How Sydney in the original she like has her closet or that blocks her? I'm door and so like I'm scared and I have to go to bed. I will set that door by the front door. Were so that I know that if somebody were to somehow get through my locked chained apartment door that I live on the third floor. So how would they get up there but whatever like ill smack against against us other door and then I keep my toolbox trash cans sort of covering half of my back door at night because that way if someone tried to open the door to get blocked or it would make economic noise. These things man. A girl's gotTa do what a girl's gotTa do all right. It's the final Pumpkin Sadah Gob Bluetooth. Sorry what are we. What are you drinking next next? We're drinking rogue els. A pumpkin patch L. Ale brewed with rogue farms. Tom Come Gins It says rogue farms. This rogue was brewed using ingredients. Cronin rogue farms in Oregon from ground owned glass. We're proud to say it's a true taste of rogue terrier toe to toe walk. Terror are okay. That's how to learn. More about they grow your own revolution visit US online at rogue dot com. They're terriers make this. They created with Pumpkins. Grown at rogue farms in Independence Oregon. Fresh pumpkins are picked. Loaded into our truck driven immediately immediately. Seventy seven miles to our burry in Newport Oregon quickly roasted and pitched into the Brew Kettle. While that's very specific very specific and cheese with all those very. It's amazing. This bottle doesn't cost like one hundred six point one alcohol by volume and and it's a big fucking bottle to is a seven hundred fifty milliliter bottle. We're GONNA get dumb kidding all right all right. Let's taste this. It's a nice amber color. It has pacman East. That's what it says. I don't know what that is but this is is pretty tasty. I still say pump king my favorite. It is really tasted really good. I like this might be like right below pumped. Although you're right that's by I see L.. We had like a few episodes ago. That was really know this. It's kind of similar actually might be more pumpkin e than the Pump King. I don't know I'm GONNA give us one of four. I would grab a solid. I would agree with that and share and I think we have one more go story Torri are- or are you gonNa tell him. Yes so we have one last ghost story And again really quick. Thank you all of you wrote in with stories. Please keep them coming even scary stories about like anything that you think we would find interesting we love hearing from you guys and you playing pranks on people and scaring you how you survive possible serial killers. Yeah what are your escape. Plan moving a good subject actually subject. But we've got this one's about ghosts hopefully Well okay so this one is kind of a personal one. So I think I've mentioned in past episodes that I have lived and and two houses that I believed to have been haunted. So this actually comes from my ex boyfriend Jeff. I told him to to write me and a story and here we go. I bought my house October of two thousand and four. The only thing I knew about the house was that an old man lived there before my wife. Now my ex wife and I moved in I used to joke that I hope the old man I live. There didn't die in the house. One day. The grandson of the old man that lived in my house came over to say hi and introduce himself. He lived a few blocks away. And you said come over to mow his GRANDPA's lawn as we were in my living room talking about the front door. He pointed to my couch and said that was right where he died. Oh great eight. Oh Fuck. That was the last thing I want here. Can you imagine someone coming over your place and being like Oh. That's where so-and-so died I have a relative who had someone die in the tub of their house. Oh actually think it'd be pretty funny to go to like my childhood home which I actually wanted to do. Because that's the first haunted house I grew up in and I've always wanted to go back there and asked like the new people who live there like have you seen anything weird but like also go back there and just just like walk into a random room and be like Oh. This is where my mom and dad were bludgeoned. Thank God I was at a sleepover Over that night or I'd be too all right. Well thanks for the walk down memory lane gotta go. Actually House wasn't far from yours that I lived in when we were little. Oh they did construction on that house so I've always wanted to know like 'cause they say construction stirs up stuff exactly anyway. Quick Tangent engine back to the story anyways so soon after we moved in we started hearing noises at night. There were random bumps and bangs. The House that you just didn't hear during the day there is also the feeling that you're being watched or it felt like someone was in the next room. When no one else was home things would move around the house too? If a COP was placed in one spot it would be moved to another spot then one night. When I was in bed I was laying on my side sleeping sleeping sleeping? Suddenly I got southern laying on my side sleeping and had been wake up in the middle of the night standing on my side of the bed. Bad was a tall silhouette of a man leaning over me. I was so petrified. I tried to say something but I couldn't. After few moments I decided to take a swing at whatever was in. The Silhouette has vanished before my eyes after that things escalated even more noises and always the feeling that someone on or something else was in the House with me one night. When I came home from work I broke down because I couldn't take it anymore? I sat out loud. Hey this is my house now. I would appreciate it if you moved on you. I don't know that's how you would have said it. Then on him though for say Yeah Yeah Ah so things die down after that my wife and I divorced and she moved out my friend. Paul moved in became my roommate. Paul knew a little little bit about some of the things that happened in the past like the noises but he didn't want to hear about them. While Paul was living there his mom had passed away and he was given her ashes ashes despite up their family. Cottage in Wisconsin. Paul was freaked out by the idea of having his mom's ashes in his room. I said I would put them in my bedroom closet into. We're able to go up to Wisconsin to scatter them. which thanks buddy? Hey that's what a true friend is far. True friend is there to put your mom's ashes in their closet. Yeah that's like a t-shirt stenciled or something. Yeah well we're GONNA t shirts made with that on there. So one bright and sunny morning so now he has has his roommates MOMS ashes in his cause at like people do one bright and sunny morning I was laying in bed wide awake. Paul all had already left for work and I was home alone as I was laying there with my eyes wide open. I heard a conversation coming from the living room which is right next to my bedroom. I should also say not only was home alone but the TV was not an. I lay in bed for half an hour listening to a man and woman talking in the Living Room Although I cannot really make out what they're saying I knew the voice of the woman. Her voice was raspy just like Paul's mom who was a smoker and had a very distinct voice. He's the other voice I can only assume was the man who had once lived in my house in died in my living room. I wasn't scared though. I felt at peace listening being to them. Nothing much really happened after that but when I told Paul about it later he freaked the fuck out and eventually bought his own place. So yeah I lived in this house for two years and before I moved in the only story I knew about it. Was that story area of him. Hearing the conversation between Paul's mom and the guy that died in the living room. It's so crazy to me so crazy. But because he wasn't scared it didn't scare me sure and I didn't know any of the other stories about things moving early bumps noises in in the middle of the night or just the feeling of someone watching you. He never told me any of those things but then when I I moved in just as he's at like it would be in the morning sun shining in everything's bright and sunny in the house he would leave for work and I'd still be in bed and I would hear the garage door closed and I would know he was gone and all of a sudden I would have this this feeling of someone watching me never in my life have fouled anything like this before but I was so afraid the moment I heard him leave. I couldn't even like get out of bed. I would have to force myself to get out of bed to go to the bathroom in the morning. Order like get out about and like start getting ready go about my day but I always had this feeling in the daytime that I was being watched when I was talking talking to him and like texting him like hey can you please write me a story just a little bit about the background of Your House and Blah Blah Blah and. I told him I was like you know. You're always freaked freaked me out every time you will leave for work. I felt like I was being washed. He's like you never told me that. And I was like no I didn't and then like I read the story and know that he felt the same the thing so the spirit might have quieted down but it did not leave no. It's his house for sure he will always be there. He may not be as disruptive but that house is so the it is not is not a negative energy right but I remember the first first time I ever saw the first paranormal activity movie. I watched it by myself in the living room where the guy died and gone. John and I was home alone because jeff was out with his friends and I had to get off the couch to go to the bathroom and I could not do it because the the rest of the house was pitch black and like right across from the living room they're like at a diagonal angle was the office. which was this open door? That was pitch black and I just felt like someone was in the office watching me and I would have to have gone pass. Pass the office to get to the bathroom. I could not do it like I well and especially after watching paranormal activity. doughty's scare the shed on me but I could not get myself to get off the couch. I was so terrified. I think doing was There is a half wall separating the living room from the kitchen so I think I jumped. I'd like did lava. I like jumped from the couch to the half wall walked around the kitchen table so literally in the opposite direction of the office to completely avoid going. Pass the store edging. I know that I would have probably done mccower freaked out. Yeah like eventually. I just couldn't wait for job to come home and like turn lights on. I was terrified but Yeah so that is the ghost story slash Pumpkin beer tasting episode episode. And we hope you enjoyed it. Thank you again to everybody that like wrote a and again if you have other stories if they're about ghosts there about scary stuff the time your favorite Pumpkin L. Whatever feel free to write us So it's it's enjoyable. Yes Spencer can I jump in with a little pumpkin beer note. Okay so this is just a little history on the wikipedia page for Pumpkin Ale Short. The brewing of beer with Pumpkin in the United States dates back to seventeen seventy one. The first commercially brewed. Pumpkin Ale came from Buffalo. Bill's brewery shut up up. I won't shut up in Hayward California in the nineteen eighties. The recipe based on brewing studies is made by George Washington the Beers contemporary popularity has been described as part of a pumpkin spice craze initiated by a rash ah Pumpkin and pumpkin spice flavored consumer food products such as the Pumpkin Spice Latte so technically. The first one was Well technically the I was back in the colonial era. I found another website. All about that but Yeah the first one officially was in the eighty s it puts pumpkin in in the brewery. I Dunno buffalo bill try and fail. It's the Pumpkin in the L.. Or are it gets the or it gets impaled very good again done. Thank you for taking my idea and running anything with it any any heroes. So basically what we're saying is pumping. You're not that inventive. I'm not saying that for the record hurt. I still love my pumpkin southern Tier Beer but all the bears we tasted today. I think we're all very good on various levels so But if anybody but it has any other suggestions that you're like oh you haven't tasted nothing till

US ABC News Andrea Art Mindy Fred Nancy Spencer Stephen King truckee hotel Paul Colorado Instagram Lake Tahoe Tina Tina Lake Lodge cody Sharon Pumpkin Al
Child's Play (2019) - Preview

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16:33 min | 2 years ago

Child's Play (2019) - Preview

"Jacksonville beat them power. Doc, cools that may. Hello, now playing listeners. This is Arnie and ready to play with your toys, this past weekend sought to big releases about toys, of course, there was Toy Story for that review is coming for free on our main feed this weekend. But then a little bit of counter programming. A reboot of child's play with Mark Hamill as the voice of Chuckie. It's the eighth film in the child's play series. So whether you like your toys, happy, and friendly, or evil and murderous, there is a film out this weekend for you. We reviewed child's play as our very first donation series way. Back in twenty tenth, we've continued that series when new installments came out like cursive, Chucky and cult of Truckee, and we're picking it up again, today with a review of the reboot of child's play Brock stewarded. I seeing how this new vision compares to Don Nancy music journal. Here's a clip from the show, and I'll be back to tell you how you can hear the. Entire child's play retrospective after it. Yeah. These are all setting up characters. I also think it setting up kills here in a neighborhood. I mean what else are you going to do? We'll this movie take the risk. I know it's are rated it's not be thirteen will some of these kids be killed pug is not killed. Andy intervenes here in this moment Andy gets hurt. And I would think even the most rudimentary programming would realize, oh, I shouldn't do anything more with a knife, and he doesn't want me to, but this robot doesn't learn that it's going to scare the boyfriend Shane and it's going to get thrown into a cabinet. And when Andy comes home. What's he's always doing it feels like this movie is always staying in the same apartment can't afford to go anywhere else. People just always leaving them walking back in, in the next scene. But any walks in reflected in the broken glass of that cabinet. We see very faintly dead cat in Pula, blah. Yeah. And Chucky space, I do like some of the shots in this movie. And that was one. I liked that Andy doesn't see, but we do. Yes, the cat is dead. And we're half an hour into this movie, and we are starting to get to kills, but very slowly, we're going to have quite a bit about the cat. And then finally, we're also going to get to Shane, this ten minutes is going to be Shane's ten minutes of the film. So why did he do that? He didn't kill that cat when that cat scratched him because chunky, replayed, Andy saying Shane such an asshole, Shane such an asshole, Shane such an asshole, so keirin takes the dollar way. Well, Karen is putting it in the cabinet. She also says the six freaking Rudy out, well, I can keep them away from Rudy in my room. She goes. No, it's staying in the cabinet. And then when the cat is dead Chucky. Why did you do this? Katie made. You one happy now we can play again, since the mom, was locking them up to keep them from the cat. No cat. No reason to lockup Chucky. Yeah. So Chucky is an innocent. Doesn't understand when he kills that. It's terrible. That's terrible. I just wanted to say, I hate conception. I, I'm glad it's not a voodoo serial killer. But I don't like this BB. Yeah. Exactly that which was bad back in deadly friend. And is just as bad would hear the shot when Chuck, he's bashing on the closed door and he can't get out, right? Did no one else. Hear the banging on the cabinet assigns Andy Andy was kinda haunted by that. But why didn't the mom here? That, that kind of bothered me a little bit. Why does the mom ever ask why is the glass broken on this cabinet? I mean it never comes up that night if Chucky is so innocent. Why is he standing over Andy and playing the sounds of the dying cat? That's not something a best friend would do. Like, are you trying to creep him out this two dozen learn? I'll follow the script it needs to be creepy. And it needs to kill because that's what this movie is that was the creepiest moment in the film, when earlier he was singing his. Song should be said I've complained about the previous child's play that Chucky didn't have theme song. Well, he gets one in this one. And there's a really creepy scene where Andy at two in the morning wakes up to find his doll standing over him singing. He's like you're really weird. You need to stop that. And then later. Yeah. Because that wasn't weird enough. Let me play you. The mule Ling of the dying cat as I stabbed it or did whatever I did to it because that will bring us closer. I do get it. I mean this is the same thing. We saw in previous child's play films, though. You piss off Truckee you're going to die. We saw that impart to where the teacher like through them in a closet and the seizure was killed here. Shane is going to throw Chucky in Andy's room and push Andy back on the bed because Chucky, again, instigated Shane to such an asshole, Shane is such an asshole. I don't know why Chucky keeps doing that. He is, I think wanting to piss off Shane or get rid of Shane, but when Shane gets physical. He's gonna follow them home and get physical back. Well, actually Arnie in both cases here. I'm seeing that Chuckie is doing anything. He possibly can get Andy's attention. And he's doing it wrong. There's real world examples of this, our kids have done the act out when they're not getting enough attention. This is something they may be trying to intimate here with this doll. I think they're trying to go with more of the dollars Nonni better because it's so innocent and trying to have both ends to the middle on that I don't think it plays. Either way very well, like the innocent way better than Andy Andy pay attention, pay attention to, because it really started happening when he started hanging out with his friends and not paying much attention to Chucky right? If I get rid of these people who doesn't like the Andy will play with me. He actually says that I think later in the movie, and that didn't really play very well for me at all. I don't really see what I came from is interesting. Andy is still protective of him when he kills the cat. It really is the shame death that gets him to change his mind about remaining friends, right? Actually scared at that point, as opposed to protective the cat, which the. The cat should include him in just trolling. I mean, even strangling the cat was bad, when he finally killed it. Yeah. I mean you definitely call up manufacturer. That's a serious violation. I understand that it would be difficult to convince your mother. Hey, the doll killed the cat by the same token covering up for the doll isn't exactly the best way to go either. I think this is the moment you get rid of the dollars when it kills the cat. So I asked, you guys believe that they bonded, do you believe in the moment and they've taken some time to do it? Do you believe Andy and Chucky, our friends, I have to believe there's something there, because the movie tells me that in a couple of scenes, but honestly, I feel like Andy spending Norring Chucky because he has human friends. I mean when he was watching Texas, chainsaw, he glanced over at Chucky, but Chucky was along for the ride, and when they introduce Omar Andy is off with his two friends and leaves Omar. They're trying to. To stab for to pock that, which, I don't even know that's not one thousand nine hundred eighty eight and that's not twenty nineteen. I don't know where the two pock reference comes in that kid was not born into POC died, but you guys don't get since that there's a strong. You don't feel a strong connection of you wanna see these two befriends. It's not gonna be tragic when one turns on the other. Oh, god. No tried to set that up. Don't act surprise have asked that question. The problem is, I don't think that this Chucky buddy thing is giving him anything. That is phone wasn't. I mean, that's really the problems. We needed to believe that this was a person in his life, and not just technology in his life, and the truth of the matter is, he was getting just as much punching in apps at the beginning of the movie as he was when he was getting the stall. Yeah. And he enjoyed doing with this doll, inappropriate things like he enjoyed watching the doll. Do on YouTube videos. He I feel he was too old to ever have that moment that you could have with younger. Andy Barclay in the first one Chucky, you're my best friend. You could do that with a young kid. This, they're going to try to sell us that in a few scenes, but it's not gonna work for me. Yeah. For me the main thrust difference of childsplay nine thousand nine hundred eighty eight and child two thousand nineteen is that this one wants you to believe they started as friends and it went sour and it's a track. Jesty whereas the first one it was always about there's a serial killer in there, and he doesn't even care about the other kid until he realizes he can use that kids body to become mortal again. So that's the main difference of the movie, and to me, they did a very bad job of setting up the idea that their friends, I get it. He imprinted on Andy. We were told hill imprint on you for life. But hey, I is supposed to learn now at the end he's going to say something that I wish was set up he's going to say Andy Andy, maybe you don't wanna be happy. Maybe your broken if there was something leading up to that. That was confusing his artificial intelligence into thinking. This is what was wanted you mean. Like his hearing impairment, which is I think if they cut out, I don't know that. That's what I think that's exactly what he was referring to, and some comic cards came back saying, how dare you? But now we're in the middle act and this is all about the killing right now. We can. Finally, just get to the slasher part because that is allegedly what everyone is here for his. We just wanna sees a doll kill some people in some fun ways. This movie is not been fun up to this point. But hopefully now that we have shame the bad boyfriend going home to a real family. Now, we can openly hate him. Yeah. It's one thing to kinda yell at Andy and drink beer and tell them to shush, but it's quite another thing to be leading Karen on. And that's the final nail in the coffin for our voice Shane here. Let's talk about this kill because what time of year is this movie happening. Yeah. Let's start there because I would think if you were launching a buddy to doll, you would do it before Christmas. But this movie is in the doldrums of January, he's removing Christmas lights. It is January, I would assume so no can't be January because there's a fresh watermelons in the in the watermelon patch, and it's front yard. I you know what in certain climates where. Doesn't get very cold. I guess you could do that. It just confused me because I feel very lucky. My birthday was in September. I always got the hottest new toys for birthday gifts because that's when the toys hit shelves you stock in September to sell through December. And so I'm like, okay buddy to is coming out. We're obviously leading up to Christmas if he waited this fucking long to take down the Christmas lights. Leave him up for three more months. He should have been putting them up. It should have been the pressure. I've got to do it. I'm going to put up the lights, regardless I kind of like the bit that he's wrapped in them. The ladder gets knocked over and suddenly this mulcher is moving down light by light coming closer and closer to his head and the light stay on. Yeah. What I say on, he's at the end of the lights, they're not plugged in anywhere, and they stay on it. They don't look like LED lights. I think the moment you take out, one, every third one's going to burn out anyway. But this things coming out of the CP, eighty eight. Tiller cpa. Of course child's play. Eight Pixar reference. I gotta tell you that when you put lights on your house, you keep them lit, so you can see how they look when you take them down just point that out to for safety reasons for anyone could have put on her take out lights off your house this year for safety reasons. Again, I shouldn't be asking these questions if he's been pissed on all day. Why is he having to go out that night and take down the lights second? When you take down the lights, you just grab a point and rip off your house, or do you take them down the way you put them up Clark griswald. He ain't so that I take this mean you don't like to sing I love where goes what gets me about this is Chuckie. The mulch gets his head. He stops it with his hand. Now that was nice like he's not an idiot, like he fell up the ladder that broke his legs, whatever then look like that big of a fall, but he broke his legs really bad, and he can't. Run away, but he can use his hand to hold it off. I did like the breaking of the legs. And again, I think there's something here about kids and technology, and that the daughters are right inside the window, but because they got their beats by Dray on or whatever they can't hear their dad's scream, exactly. And he can't reach us phones who's crawling to get his phone with broken legs. He's able to stop the mulcher from getting on his head, but then Chuckie gets on top with a knife, and correct me if I'm wrong, he chooses to die by mulcher than by dull. Right. It was a conscious choice to let the hand go and my wrong about that. I think it was an instinctive Chucky was swinging a knife at him as he wanted to block the knife in doing so he let go of the mulcher, and it is again. I- chored old. He gets scalped and the scout lands on the garden gnome. Yes. That was funny actually I did live you'd like to hear all of our child's play reviews. They're available as part of our spring summer. Twenty nine thousand nine donation drive. Where you can get up to forty three bonus podcasts including the men in black. Virtuous Specht series, the child's play retrospective series. The Quintin overture spec series, every film, Tarantino directed. Plus some he didn't. We've reviewed Robert Rodriguez's from dusk till dawn, which tarintino wrote, and starred in as well as both films and grind house and the Tarantino written to romance and Natural Born Killers. Oliver Stone, all leading up to our new review coming out in about a month of his new film, once upon a time in Hollywood. And that's in addition to our brand new retrospective series, the summer of nineteen eighty nine looking at films like the abyss when Harry met Sally, do the right thing that poets society, the lethal weapon retrospective series. All four of those reviews are out now and Sergio Leone as the man with no name series. And once upon a time in the west and what's upon a time in America because obviously territory. Ios referencing those titles with once upon a time in Hollywood, you could find details on how to donate, and now playing podcast dot com forward slash donate. We appreciate your support, and your donation goes into making this show possible. You'll notice that at no point at our show or we interrupted to talk about Harn shorts or audio books or car care products. We intentionally have remained independent, thanks to crowdfunding from listeners like, we hope you can join us for trials play if not you're still getting a bonus show this weekend. With our review of Toy Story four coming soon, and then, hey, another Toya movie we're going to be reviewing Annabel comes home this coming Tuesday. Thank you for your support. Thank you for listening to now playing I hope you have a great weekend. We'll talk to you. France to the end member. The end Soren. More support helps keep now playing on the air childsplay and all the child's play universe contains is the intellectual property of Universal Pictures, and no infringement is intended. Now playing is been guns in media production copyright twenty nineteen and no fun at this show if you reproduced repurpose or redistributed without the written permission of in Gaza media Inc. All rights reserved.

Andy Andy Chucky Shane cabinet Arnie Chuckie Andy Barclay Mark Hamill Karen Jacksonville Don Nancy France Sergio Leone Brock stewarded Truckee keirin Universal Pictures Oliver Stone YouTube
Just Ship It! (DHS41)

The Dental Hacks Podcast

12:43 min | 8 months ago

Just Ship It! (DHS41)

"It's hard to know what I like best about single patient use burs from micro copy dental I mean there's the part where I get to take the package open it in front of the patient. So they know that I'm taking my commitment infection control seriously I used this bird once I open it, use it in, toss it all at once. No chance of cross contamination, which is pretty awesome. But the other thing I really like about it is in each time these burs it's a brand new bird and you get a brand new cutting for you know what I'm talking about. The first time you get a burr out of the package. It's so sharpened. Why not have that single time? That's what using micro copy dental burs is above okay. There's a third thing. Make copy dental is happy to let you try their product for free and all you have to do is go to dental hacks, dot com slash where he goes website, fill out their requests for them and they're going to send you their most popular prom pepper, micro copy, dental makes damn good burs and they want you to give it a try to go dental hacks dot com slash free. You can get a free sample of their most popular. Crown Pepper. Micro copy. Dental New burr every time. Dental hats shorts. Hey didn't ax nation. Welcome back to another episode of the dental heck shots. I had some thoughts I'm going to go solo again today. Can I have some thoughts just recently? I'm a big fan of a guy by the name of Seth Godin in. I. Interestingly, I haven't really. Read as much from him. I listened to his podcast, but I used to stuff man in the two thousand and I got to meet him in two thousand six at an event in Ann Arbor. So he's kind of a hero he's he's a really interesting marketer really interesting has interesting taken a lot of things. One of the things he used to talk about all the time. Was Shipping and shipping to him was talking about. Getting a project or getting an idea out there. So in other words. The idea is you've got something you're working on in. The longer you go or the closer you get towards actually getting that out there getting your project done getting your. You know, your book published whatever. The tougher it becomes in the more complicated it becomes in in what's interesting I found myself applying this to just change that I make in my life for my practicing like that like. As soon, as I start to want to ship something. A lot of different voices in my head or around me or in the practice or employees or whatever. Started can chime in in their sort of there are reasons to slow down and not do it. Let's I mean, take essentially any change you WanNa make in your life whether it's in your practice or more you know your health or whatever. In. When it's an idea you know he sounds great and then when it comes down to executing that idea, it becomes tougher and tougher and you start to look all the problems. I in. So in some ways, I've been inspired by what Seth Godin talks about by shipping and I'm going to put a link to a video to the notes this you know what he's talking about but. He lobbed times talks about how the more people become involved with getting something to happen the harder it becomes in other words there's a objections come up or this has to be fixed this way or whatever in so. His point is very much like. How I feel about perfectionism. I know that sometimes people take the term perfectionism and they think themselves, I, it's a good thing to perfection some you do something at a high level and it's it's perfect and the reality is to me. perfectionism is a lot of times what keeps you from doing something because you can't you because you know you can't reach that perfection. So, what had all this Why? Why was I thinking mal stuff well. So over the whole Kovic break when we were closed down for almost three months here in Michigan there wasn't much I could do I went in a couple days a week to see emergencies, but they're couple short days a week and frankly it's Clearly I. Have a problem with. My profession. Sort of defining me. It really. Really having a hard time with the fact that the government is the government is telling me I couldn't do what I was trained to do, and so I didn't feel I got a lot of control over what I was doing. In so like March nineteenth I started running I know I've told the story million times people who've listened to shower like, yeah we've heard this bunch but. In Iran for like ninety two days in a row I lost a bunch of weight. Austin wants forty pounds over this covert thing, which is fantastic in. But. What's funny is running in aerobic exercise is pretty good for weight loss. It's pretty good for burning calories but I'm pretty heavy guy and. Why found was that I lost weight but I'm I've got A. I wasn't any shape with regard to my muscle mass like that. I'm pretty weak upper body. It's pretty good for running pretty good for your lower by sense of your upper body and I thought to myself man as soon as as soon as the governor allows gyms to be open. I'll I'll start going to the gym because I belong to a I, belong to a place as Jim and and Irony of it is that you know I've had access to the gym for years and I never really used it but then I've lost this weight and we started feeling good about it all that. Then the governor said, we couldn't go to the gym so. Kind of funny kind of ironic and I was worried about when she was GonNa Open Gym but then. A couple of weeks ago? She seems gyms were allowed to be open. She gave a date. The date was actually last Wednesday. and. Then I started thinking harder and harder about. Well, I don't really know what I'm doing at the gym I don't know what kind of program I should be doing. It'd be best for me. I should start looking to experts to show me how to do it, and in in all these objections sort of started to come into my mind in it's it's a classic thing. It's sort of paralysis by analysis I should be doing free weights. Should I be doing kettlebells? Should I be doing? You know aerobic classes should I be doing in? Our Jim has a lot of really nice machines. Machines are kind of Nice because they don't they're. They're great for dummies that don't know much about lifting weights I'm sure there are people listening think they're ridiculous and the the wrong choice, but the reality is is i. I wanted to make sure I started using the gym when it was open instead of putting it off because. If I didn't do it. I would feel foolish for all defined I talked about for the entire time that it was closed in also. It it felt like I was getting back to doing something. I the doctor headed for those you're wondering yeah. Didn't you break your back in a car accident getting hit by truckee? I did the doctor gave me clearance to to do this stuff? So I was I was okay. So I went on Wednesday I went on Wednesday morning. And it's funny because it the earliest you can go in at six o'clock in the morning, which is plenty early most the time but I have to be on the road to the office no later in about ten after seven to get to work on time. So it's I wanted to tell myself that in they don't really get the fitness center open till ten after six like I'm Larry walking around finding someone keyed opened up. So the my workout times are short in the morning I will say that later I was able to go different times a day when I didn't have to be at work and it was okay but. There's all these objections that seem to jump up in front of you just doing the right thing you know am I doing the right exercises? Should I be doing this? Should I be doing cardio shabby in? It's like everything wants the point me in the direction of not doing it. Of not, following through with it because these objections get in the way. When the reality is. I just went and I just started doing I jumped on an exercise bike and I did twenty minutes of Cardio and then I jumped onto machines in and did some upper body and you know the AB and lower back upper body and and by the time I done that it was I was running a little bit late and I and I got out on time but you know when I was done in like wow. I. Did it actually did it I made that change I started in what was really cool about it is once I did it once I shipped it if you will in Seth Godin Talk. The. Motivation. was just created itself in other words. The fact that I did it I was so pleased with myself for doing it, and even though these voices were telling me what I wasn't doing it right or it wasn't going to be this like perfectionism of not being able to do it the way that. I don't know someone says that I should do it was sort of me from doing it. But then once I started once I bit the bullet and just went in and started doing all of a sudden. It started to feel better started to feel real and you know what I had sore muscles from where I'd been lifting upper body or or legs or whatever, and I had the stuff that people that go the gym talk about I had that in I say it was really felt really great to be doing that but I look at this and I think. How much stuff in my office Am I not doing because of similar resistance You know. I have microscopes in all of my opertors in I tend to use them a lot now but I didn't there's a time when I had him and I didn't in their at part of it was that my assistance were kind of freaked out by him and they didn't know what to make of him and you could feel resistance coming from them and I didn't WanNa rock the boat in sometimes. Certain parts of the mouth are kind of tough to use them in. It's it's a challenge you really have to work at doing this stuff to all these different objections always seem to come up for when you're trying to change something for the better. In what I'm realizing is that first off, you don't have to do it perfectly in other words. The idea that I have microscopes but I don't use them all the time. There's a little bit of me that says, shame to that like I should be using them all the time because I have them. But the reality is that are using a lot of time and I love it when I use them and they're doing a good thing for me. I don't have to do something perfectly to have that change be part of of the office and I'm just wondering if there are if you can think of things that have kept you from doing. Jason and I on the show have talked a million times about how you go to see and you get all psyched about it, and then you come back and you don't you don't do it. You don't. Put it into practice at your office because there's all these objections in the story is. To me. On, some level you have to realize it doesn't have to be perfect. You don't have to do it perfectly to start doing in the same way that Seth Godin talks about. If you wait for your product or service or idea to be perfect, you'll never ship it because you can't get there. So you have to push through those objections and get it out there. I'm really inspired by him and what he talks about. But what's really cool about? Once, you do push it out there. it's the motivation to continue is there because it feels good that you've done it. It's very. It's probably to a lot of people that sounds silly and of course, it works this way. But but I just feel like you know a lot of times we're talking about changes we have to make. The changes don't happen because we can think of reasons not to, and the story is man. Don't worry about doing it perfectly just get it out there and get going with. The motivation will come on till like I said I went that was a week ago that I went to the gym in the morning that day and I've been five times in the last seven days. So like it's and I'm not doing it perfectly but I'm going them showing up I'm doing it and I feel really good about that So. It just just something to think about anyhow. So. If you can if you can push through and ship it so much good comes of it. Were rather than like caving into the objections that naturally come up in your brain. So I hope that was helpful to you guys really appreciate you guys listen to show. If you have any questions or comments about what I was talking about today, feel free to email us at Info at dental hacks, dot com or bring it up in the dental hacks nation facebook group we can talk about it there. And we'll catch you next episode.

Seth Godin Jim Ann Arbor Crown Pepper facebook Iran WanNa Michigan Austin Larry Jason truckee ninety two days twenty minutes forty pounds three months seven days
CEP_Eric Adams

Cybersecurity Effectiveness Podcast

37:33 min | Last month

CEP_Eric Adams

"Eric how's it going. It's going great. How's it going there brian. It's it's going. It's going pretty well here. In northern california. Are you getting any fishing or skiing lately Up north absolutely so fishing. Yeah i like to go fishing. But i'm not so great at it It's very close by so it's like a you know half a mile away and just go down there to hang out. It's like being in the woods just really close by so that's nice. What kind of fish is it where you're we so we have mostly trout You catch varieties of other things occasionally when you do catch something There are like bass and other types of fishing areas. Nearby here I usually don't venture out that far though so I grew up in tahoe and A river that water is but one of them. The tricky river and truckee river has quite a few trout. I'd go fishing there quite a bit. In addition to fishing for trout which usually catch a couple tons of crayfish so crawdads or might let wherever you are in the united states you have or in the world but we used to catch those by like that just dozens and dozens. Sometimes even hundreds of them. And i didn't particularly like the way they tasted but my family did catch a lot of those. They're good papa. Does in the south or fantastic and they're really spicy too. I've been there in texas. Actually isn't there too. There's like papa does and then there's like a seat as is the mexican food restaurant. It's fantastic too so yeah jot radio and then you've been skiing lately. Yeah absolutely so here. Finally we got some snow. We had no snow for the whole winter until about a week ago. And we've got like a few feet within the last week. I've been going for probably since january at night. I've passed so working the day and then about you know little after three o'clock i get up really early so that clock or so i'll go ahead up to the mountain and it's still light time and so i'll make you know a few runs hanging out for a while. Make a few more and drive home. But it's only like an hour away and we've had incredible amounts of powder so it's been just amazing as a as a kid another tahoe story. We used to go a night. Skiing at mount rose which didn't have night skiing. It was actually not legal to be trespassing essentially but we would do it with road flares each an instead of skibo. Wow that's crazy if anybody from out roses listening. I'm sorry it was a long time ago but that's legal thing so now it's ocular actually got lost monday so monday was holiday just this last week and it was so foggy up there during a snowstorm and it got lost and i felt bad because people were following me. You know hoping. I knew where i was going and i ended up in a creek bottom and so i had to kind of traverse back over and the snow was so deep. You couldn't see your skis and so finally like luckily i'm like. Oh yeah there's a run and found it and went towards it it's crazy utters light and fluffy it's cool bonus that thick heavy stuff. It's so hard to turn around to. Yeah absolutely that's awesome. Well let's Let's jump into it. Gives a little bit of background about who you are eric. And what you do and where you do it. Sure thing so. I work for kariba. A fintech financial technology company connecting to the largest banks in the world it's intended for cfo's and treasury management allows them to do a lot of great capabilities Cash forecasting Cast tash risk type of management activities Supply chain finance which is very huge allowing to get discounts with paying their suppliers or vendors or others earlier so there's many capabilities within korea. It's much better than using spreadsheets of course A lot of the biggest companies know about kariba kariba has been around for twenty years started in paris and then has really grown since probably two thousand ten two thousand twelve but really exponentially grown in about the last four years or so. So i've been with kariba for three years before that i was with. Hp for nineteen years with ibm for a few years and my most recent endeavors in both of those companies was with federal cloud and Getting federal cloud service capabilities through federal authorization. There's a program called fed ramp which is really great program and it uses the nist eight hundred fifty three rule set and applies that to cloud so that way it allows government to use cloud services. But what's even better about that. Is that same rule. Set can be applied to any basic cloud system There's very good governance. Parameter is controls. It goes through rigorous audit and then something called continuous monitoring which you have to ensure that you are completing these deliverables at a schedule at a cadence and then attesting to these so I'm basically applying those same principles to kariba and we've just got through our iso twenty seven zero zero one audit which is huge. It's first time for kariba In addition we have sought one two and we have swift audits to swift is the back end payments infrastructure that as crib as cloud company where that middle part where instead of companies going on premise to swift. They're coming through our cloud architecture and then were we have swift on the back end. So it's a super critical super important financial system. And that's that's my job is to ensure that it is secure. Yeah and i'm guessing there's spreadsheet or crazy whiteboard where you're mapping nist eight hundred fifty three in swift and maybe headed ninety two and everything else together to say check. Which ones do we hit. Right i mean. Because i know there's some overlap with those but there's also some standout points right there are and that's a really important point because on the internet there's a lot of these crosswalks to compliance controls in so it's interesting though customer. Summer apples to oranges comparisons. And if you're looking to meet all of those you have to look at that and it's like vin diagram of these circles that are overlapping with the same type of question. But you have to ensure you're you're answering for that complaints correctly and so there's also overlaps so there's a lot of these common ones like pci Nist eyeso- Prescriptive type of controls with an iso All of these and they have a lot of same basic ones like encryption accounts management all of those but then there's a lot of other things that they're very concerned about so you have to understand those and make sure that with an auditor and also even beyond auditing that. You're doing it properly and that you're really putting a lot of thought into it based on your what your business is. That's a really important phrase there that you had at the end because it's not just about placating the auditor checking that box. You actually you wanna do it in do it right. You just don't want to fill fill in the blank right for grade so i know there's always been that discussion. Compliance doesn't equal security. Security doesn't equal compliance. But if you actually put the effort to do your regulatory mandates securely in follow best practices he you are killing two birds with one stone But if your goal is just to make bill. Bill and sally happy the auditors. You're not gonna get it. Yeah and that's a good point and this is what i like. This is how. I like to explain that because you can pass compliance and not really have the best security intentions and that's not a good way to go about it. What you really want to do is use. What compliances there and understand the risks and understand the market that you're in and really put a lot of thought into it and say okay. We know we can pass this control. But if we're just defining this ourselves what do we really want to accomplish. How do we want based on everything that we see everything we understand. All the intelligence the threat intelligence and other parts that were looking at. How do we really make this. True information security Type of control. That's going to benefit us and our customers. So eric your your security leader with a fast growing you know. International financial services company and What are what are some of your chief concerns. What are the things that you you focus on us or your top priority items. I would like to say that that chief concern is basically very data driven at the core is our customers. Data of course are kariba intellectual property any partner data employee data all of this data and that it is protected and then ensuring that all of these frameworks that they're configured correctly that all of the policies procedures people all of these parts are working together in order to protect that data and also looking at ever changing things looking at our cloud infrastructure as it changes looking how that scales hauer adopting that differently in ensuring that it still meets the proper requirements for information. Security that we've defined and also looking at new and evolving threats and understanding those in how to account for those How much more challenging is that. This is kind of a loaded kind of not let a question. But how much march or challenging is that dealing with regulatory mandates when you're in cell many disparate countries and h have their own kind of perspectives. And where the data can reside who can access the data. What data can you store. How do you remove it. you know. There's there's all these different. Take on it i i. I've gotta think that that just as a huge amount of complexity but what does it. it does A lot of the different countries. They have a different but also they have a lot of similar types of perspectives. When you put it all together and so we. I'm on a lot of calls and this. Is you know this is how we explain it. We we we listened. I and we understand what they're trying to accomplish. And then we you know. Put this altogether and we realize we're a global company. We we meet. We understand that we listened to all of the different countries. All of the different business types. The different business units and ask them what is important to them. And so we factor this in when we're building our systems and we're looking at things like privacy. We're looking at concerns where people want to keep their data within their own country. We're looking at gdp are type of activities and other similar Requirements with other countries and so we factor this into everything that we do and it's really hard to say we're going to do this in meet every single thing that there is right but if we understand that understand the commonalities and we build based on the core but then we also take into consideration all of these other parts that are important to different parts of the world and we make sure that we can account for those and that we do have controls. That can meet those. Yeah yeah that's a good point right now. Sometimes it's not a direct a direct solution. But it's a compensating control right or something to stand by an interim. How do you know if you know looking into your crystal ball. Had how do you see that Maturing or or complexity increasing or decreasing dealing with both cybersecurity and regulatory mandates again as an international financial services a organization. Well i wish. I had a crystal ball that'd be great But i think that some some countries were very early on concerned with these things and so other countries it's taken a while to realize it was important for their citizens to demand that it was important with the way that they're adopting to this so in a perfect world everybody would be on the same page and they would say well. This is what we expect. I want your cloud system to do this. You know we. We now expect it to do this in a perfect world. That's how it would be. But really i think it's up to a lot of the companies that are the the data stewards. That are the ones that are in control of the saying. Look we're gonna take this at a high water mark approach and we're going to say this is the ones that have really been the leaders in looking at security and privacy. We're gonna take it at the high watermark that way these other ones. That are catching up. We're going to say okay. We've already designed our systems to this high watermark and. This is the reason why so that we can do business in all of these countries across the world because we realize the rest of the world is coming up to the standard. And that's what we aspire to do is understanding. What is the most critical when we look at security on privacy. And how do we adapt to that very cool. Let's switch gears a little bit. And i want to talk to you about response and which is now mandate defense a. How'd you get introduced to that. Was what was kind of the process to bring Mandy and defensive. Yeah so unknown as response software It's interesting because I had known. The personnel responded heard of respond before and it was actually a capability. That kariba was looking at implementing. Because it's a great capability. And so when i was when i was brought onto korea in early two thousand eighteen This is one of the things that were on the on the roadmap and so i found out more about it when i realized these are people i worked with. Hp for quite a while that started respond. And so i know. The the ceo respond respondent was before mandate defense. We worked in the same business unit with the hp fortify static code analysis unit. and in. i looked at the product. And they said yeah. This is amazing This is what everyone should be using whether it's a small company or a large company to ensure coverage and so and that's the reason that it was looked at from a planning and budgeting point of view was was for the capabilities that that so and then understanding who was behind this on the people who work there I was very confident at the product and then of course sought everything that it could do in real life and sure enough. it was fantastic capability. Yeah it's it's it's really nice thing when the people that you trust come together with a product that you need like that right well. Let's let's unpack that a little bit. So what are what are some of the key features that you know. You looked at her car arabia. Even as you as you joined the organization was was looking to add on what was it. What was the gap that got filled. So mainly it kariba you know being a smaller to medium size now now growing right company but at the time three years ago smaller to medium company and only having a particular amount of cyber defence center salk security operations center personnel Very small amount. You know a few that are analyzing all of these things that are being ingested into our sim and so typically you have people analysts that are watching dashboards from different systems. And its correlating into your some in. The analysts are trained to find things that will alert from the sim so really with kariba a global company people using all around the world. These things are going to happen all the time. And really you need to have personnel. Always watching this. Of course there could be alerts and you would get paged all of that but really you need to have a very capable system. That's going to crawl through all of these things with its artificial intelligence and rules and other things be able to escalate very important events to send them to a human to see them. And so that was the that was the core I guess reason that we were that we wanna to onboard. Respond mandate defense. Now you know a lot of customers. I talk to about mandy and defense bring up automation automation automation as sort of one of the key drivers You mentioned a couple a couple use cases there as well. I wonder if you can maybe share a couple of use cases and we talked to how that automations being leveraged. And maybe it's impact on personnel. And that sort of thing yeah definitely well with mandate defense to there's different modules that can be adapted for networking modules hardware in in point modules. And so really configuring those understanding how they worked and being able to get those high fidelity alerts. That was the really big game. Changer was not just getting alerts for something and saying. Hey you should look at these. They're very high fidelity alerts and you're able to also triage these and you understand what they are and maybe you put in an incident tickets. Someone works on something You know looks at a problem. You're able to then give it basically thumbs up thumbs down and say yeah. This was a really good alert. And then it learns more from that of saying okay. We see this particular pattern. That's happening in now. A human has verified that this was indeed a good alert and so it it continually learns from that process and so i think that implementation of being able to see how it worked and then being able to kind of Contribute back to the community. i think it's a really good process and that's that's how we implemented it. Yeah no certainly that that. Combination of machine based intelligence with human based intelligence and interactions that. That's that's the goal equation. It seems like for for most security solutions. I think going forward. Yeah it's it's real automation. you really. That's what you start to adopt to out onto this. It's it really changes it. Because like i said when you're just analysts and you're used to seeing all these things and then reacting you're really building that automation and that's where you have more time available to focus on a lot of these other areas. You know i was going to ask you that as well. So from a the business i mean i get the technical value add there. I think most people do especially when you you really hit on high fidelity Alerts is not you know. There was a port scan or there. Looks like there might events and exfiltration or so it's very detailed and i think that so key a but from a business perspective what are what are maybe some of the like a ha moments or some of the you know value adds that you've seen from the business side well absolutely and this is where we really are able to leverage how mandian defense works and we're able to capture the value because really what we do is we look at risks and we look at this throughout the are constantly and we have set amount in our budget to say okay what capabilities people processes things to. You need to be able to pay for the so really out of business point of view when you're working with your cfo apartment and you're looking at all of the capabilities throughout the speaking with many vendors understanding what's going on what's changing. That's really where we realized. Look we can take advantage of this. Not only from a technical capability point of view but also from a business point of view. Because if you realize if you've mandy a defense completing your tier one and tier two typical processes that an analyst would do and you're able to free up those that time from your human analysts you're able to allow them to do tier three and more deep support in your also allowing them to work on more dirty engineering projects and being able to configure your other security tooling within your security operation center so really from a business point of view. It makes a lot of sense. And whether you're a small company or a big company because a small company especially you really need to scale and understand your human personnel. That are plugged into these roles. And then understand what what other capabilities that you should be putting in. And so that makes complete sense but also with even big companies and departments within big big large companies The coverage is really a huge part. That you should accompany should be looking at what i'm hearing in. That is a way to really address optimization for not just your tech and to your point now you have cycles actually tune other products that you have and get value from them but also refined you know what your people in processes are are are applied to write and getting value out of them which is so key because we tend to talk people process in tech but in operations we tend to really lean on tech right not not the fact that while maybe with these five people we have with this new new piece we can actually have four of them doing more strategic location range things as opposed to fighting fires. And i think that's the new if you will Insecurity for sure. Absolutely it all has to come together and this is where a lot of documentation and testing comes typically also understanding. What things do you have that you've procured in argue configuring it to its abilities that it should be used for. If you're just buying. I was telling someone this earlier if i buy a gym membership and i show up january first and then i don't show up the rest of the year. Is that doing me. Any good not really So you want to get the most out of this too and you want to also ensure that you are matching with people and processes and also testing and ensuring that. It's doing what it's what your original intentions were to be. How is supposed to be used in that. It's meeting those objectives. Yeah let's talk a little bit about threat. Intelligence because i know in financial services is a lot of people that would talk about financial services as the tip of the spear when it comes to threaten toddlers bent. fsi sacks and other integration and information sharing and they've really been one of the. I think more Proactive verticals When it comes to threaten until What are your views on it. Pros cons leveraging at people are saying now they want integrate integrated into everything for men point to cloud and everything in between but which your take on threatened to will. Yeah definitely you want to know in advance everything about threat intelligence. That could happen. Also these feeds us. Many of these feeds Some that you mentioned too so we always want to know what's going to could potentially be a problem. What could attack us and we want to know about it. We wanna know why it's happening and so we we really we need those feeds to be able to have awareness situational awareness of. What's going on without them. We'd be going in the darken just getting logs to us and wondering how to react from that so that helps with our planning that helps with understanding. Really what is going on by looking at threat intelligence but also i kind of look at it like an item model in in itell- incident management. So you get all these incident tickets and react to them and it's a constant you know knocking those down like wacko. But then you also have problem management so if you're looking at security problem management your then assembling all of these incident management tickets in. You're saying okay. What common things are happening. And what is a potential root cause analysis to this. What could we do to solve this or to minimize the risk by putting careful thought into it in understanding how we should adapt to these. So that's how i see. Threat intelligence is to be able to have this data more in advance but then also continually getting these feeds to understand our operational stance in regards to potential threats. That are coming up now. I agree with that. One hundred percent. And i'm i'm seeing this turn being thrown out around quite a bit now. Intelligence led meaning that instead of some lagging indicator of compromise or some ioc or some information after the fact that sometimes having that after the fact intelligence certainly helps when you're doing forensic analysis but being intelligence led in terms of. Let's valid it my end point. My firewall my sim ips. What have you against this latest batch of threat intelligence just came through and then another batch in an hour and another badge our to see how we would stand up to these threats. And it's just it seems like it's become becoming a much more proactive Sort of integration to cybersecurity juxtaposed to historically was much more reactive for that forensic analysis. And i really do think that's the that's the next big step for threatened tells. That intelligence led that proactive piece of the puzzle that goes to automation to maturing your organization. Being able to be in a position to do that. Because that way you know as things change your particular state like you said if you do that every hour you have that assurance that you know that your systems are acting appropriately in how they should be and so really. I can see that with automation in and You know capabilities like man yet defense. It allows you to be able to be in that state. Yeah let's let's talk about people but from a little bit of a different perspective as well Everyone's always talking about the the lack of security expertise today and you can't hire enough and you can't retain enough and there's there's all sorts of issues regarding security talent In a lot of organizations have have leveraged professional services third party consulting groups and incident responders and even people that are on retainers consultants on retainer retainers to help out with security again. Financial services companies that sometimes have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of security professionals working there and then sometimes you have a a retailer healthcare provider that might have you know five people but what. What's your take on that because it seems like there's a i don't want to say more people embracing but just i. I'm seeing out in the field more where people are saying. Yeah this is this. Is we use this group for this. We use that group for that and that way we don't have to hire or we can augment our team is that playing into what you're doing in your strategy. Yeah it's interesting I am a believer in retaining people that are committed and that are willing to continually learn. And that's that's our security staff korea. They're very committed. They continually want to learn. They continually want to know more and also are the type of people who really dig into understanding. How things work whether it's security whether it's just some technical capability on her cloud system or anything else and so. I'm i'm really a firm believer in investing into people and their continued success through training and You know other type of activities advanced security events training In order to maintain that core expertise at times there can be where you bring in you augment your staff with a particular maybe contractors or others. That have a specialization. That maybe you might need for a time But i really believe in that In retaining those people now. I'm going to say that because Most companies are not in in that predicament. And they they don't have maybe not a network of security people that they can bring an so i. I know that chris was small brought in a team of personnel. That i'd worked with for you know some almost ten fifteen years and so most places are not like that and they have to go out and of course procure things that others are the expert in and i think really that allows managed service providers and others that have that expertise to be able to do that and i think it's very good to do that and that can be done in a security operation center. But i think that the way that you do it. The most of in the most effective manner is to carefully work with. And whoever is going to do that externally for you that they understand your business and your objectives and that you're continually measuring those along the process I do think you know in the future. I don't have the magic crystal ball. I wish i did. But i think in the future as people these things. They're going to consider these more. And i think that that's how things will work. I think that that's what it will look like in future is. They will look at these capabilities and say okay. You know it takes a long time to bring people in to train them in to get them aligned with the business objectives with the security objectives and it's tough in this market people could go leave and go across the street and go work somewhere else and that's the reality of it and so i think it's a careful balance but also understanding that if they want to automate these things and also their ever changing and so the capabilities are very much aware of these ever changing things in the environment and so. I think that that's the balance that has to happen. And i thought that was a very good way. You put it especially at the beginning when you were talking about. You can't just bring people in and say go do it. They really need to understand your business. They need to understand your operations they need to be able to interact with you and your team and kind of go go at it from that perspective. I think historically you've been in the industry for a long time there. There was a time where professional services no say pen. Testers would run a few scans dump two hundred page Necessary report and years some opening courts and things like that and then walk away and come back the next year. And nothing's changed. It was it was a garbage really I hate to say And luckily we've evolved way past that. And i think some of the red teamers and things like that today do absolutely amazing work but To your point you have to understand the business. If you don't understand the business then you'd have Really no no. There's no point for you to go in there and do some type of assessment because you might be coming at it from completely wrong go right especially when it relates to supply chain issues different partner types of things you need consider them and today's complex multi cloud multi multinational environment like yours. Right that can that can be a you. Know a bowl of spaghetti. Trying to figure out all those connections. Yeah absolutely It does get very complex What you mentioned too about so we use mandaeans red team exercises and it's fantastic because that's really it's not just. Hey look we scan this. We tried to poke around here. Here's a report. good luck. we'll see in year. That does you. No good of course trusted partner for kariba. That's the reason why is because we really thoughtfully go about these and we work with them very closely. So when they're doing red team exercise it's interesting. It's like a cat and mouse game. We can see a lot of things that are going on. And some of the senior management personnel kind of let those activities happen to see how the security staff reacts how people react until see you know. Really where are the problem areas and we target this to specific parts. You realize that you know we have so we have swift infrastructure continually hardin that truck all of the time. It's very important to us. And also we have multi cloud hybrid cloud type of capabilities. We have some that are private Colocation data center cloud we have some that are infrastructure as a service public type of cloud and so really we try to figure out. Are there any weaknesses or deficiencies in these in that hybrid cloud environment or to specifically like let's swift or other particular areas and so we it's very important to us. What man does is super important because we get that visibility. The manner red team testers are very skilled. They do a lot of these things that we see attackers. It's very similar that that they do. And they use these same techniques and it's super important because then we learned from it and we figure out what where we need to focus on. Yeah you know. I came to mandate from the acquisition of verden and over the last couple years. I've really got a chance to work closely with the red team folks in the purple team folks and what they do and the incident responders and how they leverage the sort of the mandy threat intelligence as well it. All kinda comes in comes into play and i think you know mandate response Is just such a core piece of that equation makes for very nice holistic story of intel and services and platform based solutions. But as we as we wrap up here Again someone that's been in the industry for a long time you know working for a big international financial services company leading security there. What are what are some words of wisdom for some listeners that you might have a well. That's a big question. Thirty seconds or less elevator speech never sleep. How about that. Well i would say it really. I mean if you're looking at your system you're looking at your your forward facing customer facing cloud deployment system or other applications system that your customers use you're also looking at your business processes. You're looking at things like your partner. You're looking at all of this together. And so i think that it's really to understand everything you have all the assets you have all of the accounts that you have all of the data that you have the data flow that goes on in your system what customers are doing what employees are doing. And you're able to really see all of that. An account for it but then you're also to analyze all of that for risk and you're able to maybe look at it from an attacker point of view and say i'm an attacker knowing what i'm knowing or knowing what i know from internally you know what is what is a value what do what would i want to steal out of this either cloud system or the business operations part of this in. Where would it. Where would it hurt us. And where would be a big impact. What would be a headline tests. That would say If this was taken out of this company what would that headline be. and so. that's what we're always thinking about is. How do we put mitigations in place and controls in place to stop those things into ensure safety security for our customers for employees for partners for everyone who uses the system. Yeah good advice. I think it was a little over thirty seconds but still get advice. I need to shorten that down really. Well eric thanks so much for being on the show. We really appreciate you taking the time and Best of luck with everything korea and all year. You're fishing and skiing buddy all right. Thank you bryan. have a good day.

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Dr. Samuel Ramsey - Tracking The Tropilaelaps & More  (S3, E8)

Beekeeping Today Podcast

57:45 min | 10 months ago

Dr. Samuel Ramsey - Tracking The Tropilaelaps & More (S3, E8)

"Welcome to beekeeping today, podcast presented by culture beekeeping today podcast your source for Beekeeping News Information and entertainment I'm Jeff and I'm Kim. Hey Jeff and Kim today's sponsor is global patties. There are a family operated business that manufactures protein supplement patties for honeybees. It's a good time to think about honeybee nutrition feeding your hives protein supplement. Paddy's will ensure that they produce strong and healthy colonies by increasing brood, production and overall honey flow now is a great time to consider what type of Patty is right for your area and your honeybees global offers a variety of standard patties as well as custom patties to meet your needs, no matter where you are globalist ready to serve you out of their manufacturing plants in Airdrie. Alberta and in Butte, Montana or from distribution depots across the continent. visit them today at www dot. Global PATTIES DOT COM Hey thanks a lot. We also want to thank Bee Culture magazine for continuing their presenting sponsorship of this podcast be culture has been the magazine for American beekeeping since eighteen, seventy, three subscribed to culture today, and while you're there, check out, be cultures beekeeping your first three years at quarterly magazine for beginning beekeepers. We also want to thank. Two million blossoms has sponsor of this episode. Two Million Blossoms is the quarterly magazine dedicated to protecting all pollinator insects wilder manage before they disappeared, learn more in our season two episode, nine podcast editor, and their guest goes Huston trainer, and from visiting www dot. TWO MILLION BLOSSOMS DOT COM and is with a number two. Hey everybody thanks for joining us again Kim. We have a special guest lined up for today's episode. Doctor, Samuel Ramsey. Yeah Jeff truckee. We caught Sammy this time. He was ever in Thailand studying that another nasty might over there. And his research got interrupted with a pandemic, so we had to come home, so we got him when he was here. Yeah, that's you know. It's I guess it's a way to make. What they say, lemonade out of Lemons. As well hear. His his his shutting down his experiments and everything coming back because of the pandemic is worked out in our favor. Getting them back on the show he was out. He was on our show back in twenty eighteen a great interview, Great Show Sammy is quite quite entertaining and a friend of the podcast we look. Look forward to. See what he's found out about people apps so far. If you. Look at them on the on the Internet and Youtube Him. Well you'll see why he's so. He's so focused on stopping them before they get here. So, how's your summer going Kim You usually do a lot of meetings and well. Jeff, this is the summer of zoom. And meetings virtual meetings. Some people are still having meetings. In person and they're trying to do all of the right things, but by far the most of gone to and most of them are using zoom. As a matter of fact, I've given three talks in the last couple of weeks. many as one hundred fifty people fuse forty but it's It's always zoom, and if your group isn't using this program or one similar to it. you might WanNa. Think about about joining the joining the president in beekeepers tend to be a little slow and picking some of these things up I was and. Jeff got me going, but if you belong to an association and you're not having meetings consider. figure out how to do zoom. Yeah. It's it's it's well. It's saved the world. The world runs on Zoom Right now and they've gone from when we started using a small obscure little video conferencing. Now it's now. It's an a verb. ADVERB it's. It's A. People are zooming so yeah good words of advice. All right well this. Hold this off anymore. Our interview was Doctor Samuel Ramsey. Very, entertaining, we hope you enjoy. Well Doctor Samuel Ramsey welcome back to the beekeeping today. podcast I'm happy to have you here. Oh, it's great to be back Sammy. It's good to see you again. Good to see it to Kim. I think we crossed. We cross paths at eight, but Monday didn't think across the room I waved. I. I'm going to have to figure out something new for for these these conferences and things I feel like I am just zooming around. Different booth to all these different talks and I don't get the opportunity to really invest in conversation the way that I would like to. It's been ages since I've seen you and it still feels like it's been ages since I've seen you since I've just seen you Boondi is we hardly got? Certainly understand that meeting that was a was hectic in capital letters. Bold underline. It was fun. It was a good meeting. So Sami you have been in Thailand. Since! We talked to you last. If you have and you have been busy studying something we all need to worry about. Share. Share with us what you've been up to and what we need to know. A certainly will. So I've been studying a parasite that actually mentioned the last time that I was on this podcast, and it's the Tripoli. Lapsed. Might Tripoli lesson receipt aside and. Given that the name that I just said is one that few people can repeat back to me after hearing at once. Kind of There's somewhere out there. Somewhere, deep down inside, I've got my fingers crossed that whoever came up with the name murder? Hornets might find a good moniker for AAA laps mercy. Needs Better, marketing. Missing I don't think. The AAA lapses. Find The mercy. This is the. Well I don't I don't feel like they've quite got the marketing. So this is a parasite that. It's in the ways that it interacts with a honey bee colony. There's an. Association there, there's a connection with the development. Of the honey bees when they are at their most vulnerable, those Mites are going in causing all kinds of damage. The pretty much Varroa destructor with some steroids thrown, throated just kind of the bodybuilding cousin and I'm a little bit concerned that there's so little that we understand about this parasite currently because we're to arrive in the US. There's still so much work that would need to be done for us to really grasp. Elements of its. It's biology, its life cycle, and how best we can treat these ordinances. Can you describe the AAA lamps just compare and contrast because I think a lot of people are familiar at this point with Varroa so so trump elite apps from seaside like Varroa destructor comes in a few different varieties, so Varroa has four species, and right now we know four species of AAA laps It is a might a lot like Baruah, but about a third the size so more difficult to see. And it's sort of shaped like a pill with some very long legs all around. And it's a very very fast parasites, comparisons of so Verona's this reddish. Weird, oblong shopped parasite just sort of bumble along and move slowly Tripoli lapses a pill shaped organism that speeds along on the comb, running around back and forth it's rather conspicuous to see in colonies and causes some rather conspicuous damage. Just months into an infestation of AAA laps. You'll start to see tons and tons of the sills being uncapped as the bees go through an attempt to control the problem that a lot like parasitic Mites Syndrome in some ways. I'm so they're going through. Their uncapping the cells, but unfortunately with a lot of this uncapping this done. They don't actually kill the parasites inside. My time in in Thailand found the parasites seemed to survive this process just fine in oftentimes continue reproducing. Just as they would have otherwise. As the beezer dragging more of the they're. They're developing brood. Tripoli laps is also interesting because of these small amount of time that it spins on the adult bees, so Varroa can spend anywhere from one to I from one day to a couple of weeks, on adult peace with about an average of three days Tripoli laps spins usually less than a day on adult bees so it's really more a matter measured by hours before it goes right back into his reproductive cycle, so even though it doesn't reproduce much faster than Barreau. In terms of its ability to produce eggs and go through the the reproductive process, its population builds up so much more quickly because they don't have that lengthy refractory period that you see. Edition that makes them a lot more difficult to control because the time that these parasites our own, the adult bees, the time where they are the most vulnerable in Tripoli lapses, been smart enough to reduce that amount of time too short a period as it possibly can wow. Sammy this is This is but you just alluded to kind of is that the the life cycle is similar to raw. Yes, a female goes into cell waits until it's just before it's capped. Produces male and female offspring, the male and female offspring mate, and then if things go the way they should go, the larva emerges. They emerged with it precisely and thank you for that Jim, because I forget some. Good save their I forget sometimes there that everybody doesn't just immediately know the life cycle of a AAA last night. When you've been immersed in these things for long enough, some of these things they they just stand out to you like Oh yeah. Everybody knows jump in there right. Before the sellers cab, they reproduce very a regular rate and the cells uncapped by the adult bees, and the might go out with them. Of course is that. Now, it's precisely as you said. So Verona's life cycle. You've just kind of given the rundown for what is the typical life cycle where? The parasite will sort of right around on adult bees on the underside of their body for the most part when they're trying to find a new host, but the entire reproductive process happens under that waxed sell capic in when they're under the cell capping, they feed very regularly on the developing Brood, which is awful, because the the brute is totally incapable of defending itself, and so it's just sitting there. There as this organism feeds on, it has offspring and the offspring feed on it as well that same hole, so then so you go from having one Mike feeding their to an entire family as they develop, and then as the be finally turns into. This adult is adult. That's had allowed the nutrition removed from its body when it needed it most in its way out the miser able to leave. And if there are any adult. Daughters in that cohort, they're able to carry on this process again. They leave already made it, and so it makes it a lot easier for them to continue their reproductive processes within that county, or be flown to another one without having to meeting that's Roy and the AAA labs or are chose that's. And I've described the elements of it that are similar between the two of them, but there are some key differences, because when Barreau goes in in into one of those cells, it lays an egg in that first egg, always female, and then the next egg Sorry, the first egg is always mail in the next egg. The next eggs are all female, and so that one male. His only job is to reach adulthood before his sisters and make sure that he's able to meet with them so that they can emerge already made it it is. This is probably the part where we should warn anyone with small children. This is not quite the section of the podcast. They want the kids listening. We'll have to put an explosive label on this podcast. After that. Bout of parasitic incest. Those females can then emerge from the cells. And they can meet with. Sorry they can carry on the the process. These reproductively without ever having to meet again, which will belay laps? The interesting thing about it is that when the females enters the cell. Her aid can be a a male or female, and she can alternate between male and female eggs throughout the process and one of the reasons why she doesn't have to make sure that I egg is a male is because she's not racing the clock. She doesn't have to make sure that those females are made it before. The cell is uncapped because the males are actually capable of leaving, that sells well for Vero in the cell is uncapped. The males are not fit. Fit for life. Their bodies don't have that hard coating over them. The VARROA females have in as a result the water evaporates from their body really quickly, and they just die but the male Tripoli laps are able to leave the cells, and they avoid something really problematic that you just heard from me a moment ago. there's a very strong limit to the amount of genetic diversity that you're going to see in Varroa because they're always mating with their brothers. Now there are circumstances where two female role were will enter the same sell and produce offspring, and then the males produce. There had the opportunity to meet with females that aren't their direct sisters, but most of the time. They are only meeting with their siblings for AAA lapsed. Those males are able to leave in meet with any females that they want to creating much more genetic diversity, and allowing them to have a robust Gino that's allowed them to develop pesticide resistance to chemicals that have only been used on them very very briefly, and so if you look at the genome for trump lelaps, if you actually attempt to test pesticides on real, find that they've already, they're already showing resistance to some of the best chemicals that we have at our disposal current. I have to ask this because of our guests, Jeff. When these when these mates are feeding on these larva. Honey Bee Larva if I recall. Var Off! The raw female starts on a spot, and then all of the offspring feed at that same spot. And is that? Is that we're? That spot is on that larva. Is that where the fat body on that Larva is, so that's. THE LARVAE! That's great question. By the way the larva is pretty much all. It's kind of ridiculous, but is a sack of tons of that body, a small brain in the digestive system running through the middle. And they need so much fat batty, because the fat body is doing Sir many important processes. They're necessary for metamorphosis to happen is if you think about it, metamorphosis is doing some really like it is a complicated process to get you from being just a sack with a mouth on one end and a rectum on the other end to being an organism with wings functional is organs capable of meeting. The this much larger, much more convoluted brain. All of that reorientation is happening because the fat body is able to facilitate this process, and so you need a lot of fat tissue. It's also they're storing nutrients so when the Mites by into a section of the be what's most important for them is that they don't bite the head of the because of the calls a D-. Formation in the head they can kill their host, and if they kill their host, it can't chew its way out of the cell and allow them to be released because they don't have the to do that on their own, and so what you see from them is that as their preference is for them to then feed. Usually on the underside of the the MITES body they'll feed in the section there. That's destined to be the abdomen, but if they chose to feed on other regions of the Mites body, they would still be able to contact the fat body tissue, but something else that you've brought up there that I think is really important. Safe is that they have a fairly polite manner about them as parasites. They've they've. We're GONNA feed on this one spot and our entire family is going to beat on this one spot, and we're going to try not to disturb other elements of the organism's development body. AAA laps have no element of those those manners. They will feed on every little spot on the developing Bee's body. In every time they feed, they bite a separate hole so while rural only feed through the same hole Tripoli. LAPS keep feeding through different sections of the Bee's body, causing all kinds of damage and deformities in the process. Well that sounds like then if the be is even able to emerge, it is far less capable of of becoming a be of. Contributing to the health of the HIVE and living yeah, you want it to be. A functional member of society wanted to be capable of eventually being afford germ bringing back food nurse. Then create food for the Brood, and unfortunately, when they have been fed on by Tripoli laps the regions of their body where they're fed on, there is a section that can develop scar tissue, and so you'll have this area. The Bee's body that becomes inflexible and rather rigid, and so if that happens near a joint, the be won't be able to bend. It's leg and it won't be able to put his leg down. Actually put pressure on it for happens near where the wings are on, you'll get these odd deformities in the wings, and this is to the exclusion of viruses. This is without viruses present can cause deformities in the bees themselves and that's. Concerning so terribly lapses. Not something that that I ever want to see in the united. States, and it is my sincere hope that it never shows up here, but we also have to be vigilant as researchers as beekeepers. To make sure that we are keeping an eye out for this organism, should it ever arrive and to make sure that we have a plan for what we would do win? It arrives. Medical back to what you were just talking about. You mentioned virus and our triple APPS spreading virus like Verona. Do Trump lapses is capable of spreading viruses like Perot which is unfortunate. We have found deformed wing virus that is a very competent vector of deformed wing buyers is also a competent vector of black queen cell buyers so far. Those are the only two that we. We know that they're capable of victory directly. However, there are several other viruses out there that they have not even been tested for so we we really aren't sure. There are a lot of questions with AAA laps that have not been answered. Do they have a so? They're bad in the could be worse, do they have a preference in Larva that they feed on? The. Go to the drone. that. Control so go. We'll add to throw that out there because there was something that I i. There are a few things that wanted to say about this organism, and the two of you have just been helping me move right along. I appreciate that so the difference is the life cycle, but also the differences in their preferences I've read a few papers have even been. Part of a review where we have discussed elements of this Mites life cycle, and unfortunately as we have discussed these themes. We've been heavily reliant on. Papers that have based their understanding of this parasite on Verona's life cycle. Lot of what's been said is this parasite is a lot like zero, and so we've assumed a lot like Varroa. Does this or does that it's it. It must be more interested in drones than it is. In workers because workers have shorter developmental time. Drones have a longer developmental time. It simply make sense if Tripoli we're more interested in drones. I've seen that in papers and unfortunately. I've been one even a repeat that I've written papers. They're interested in in in drones, but my time in Thailand actually researching this organism I've found. I've seen no support for them in my own work. and I've been steadily. Collecting more and more data on this subject, and it seems like they do not have a preference for drone larva. and. That may be one of the reasons why they are so damaging so quickly to the colony because. and. This also might be difficult for people to hear but. The. Men in the colony are really doing much. They have a purpose. Day they they are, they are a part of the divine plan for bees, but they don't do very much inside of the colony, and so if you are going to cause substantial damage to the colony, you damage the workers and win there aren't that many drones in the colony in Varroa move into the. The worker Brood in the worker Brood is all that they have access to. They can cause pre substantial damage pretty quickly without that buffer of of drones to soak up some of that damage. with AAA lapsed Merseyside we find them in the drone brood. We find them in the worker Brood, but I've found colonies had. Greater, than forty or fifty percent. Of. Their worker Brood infested with AAA laps Mites and you cannot have a functional colony with parasite that damaging constantly destroying. You're developing offspring. A big big question Sammy. How are these people keep in Biz? It begs. Uncomfortable questions. I will say I've been working in Thailand for several months to try to better understand this parasite and this was. A study funded to specifically answer the question that Kim just throughout their beekeepers have funded this project. And through the help of beekeepers. We raised enough money for me to be able to go to Thailand and understand this organism and something that I've wanted to understand is how are bees existing with AAA laps present in those colonies how our beekeepers making a living producing honey? How are they doing anything with these parasites present so. I will tell you now that. The News isn't wonderful here, but. Beekeepers do a lot of walkaway splits. In areas where AAA lapses present, a lot of what I've seen in Southeast Asia is a constant splitting of the colony and removal of the Brood which is going to. Very much slow down the progress of the colony, the buildup of the colony in the productivity like how much honey they're capable of producing wax. If you're if you're interested in. Their wax production all of that takes a hit when you're constantly removing the next generation from this process, but when they see the mites begin to build up becomes imperative that they get rid of what the Mites need in order to their life cycle, and so they removed the Brood. And you have these colonies that have to build back up again, and that gives you a few months of buffer time to play with and sometimes just a couple of months of buffer time to play with before you have to do it again now. That makes perfect sense when you said earlier. Is that the time that they spend outside of the cell is very very short. So, if you go Queen Louis for. twenty one days or whatever you've gotTA. You've got a really really. An advantage, they're doing that. Of course you don't have any more BS being produced, but at the same time you have. Hot Well. How many! How? How? How much of the A mildly infested colony and you walk away Split, and you let them raise their own queen in that takes by the time she start laying what twenty four twenty five days. How many of the the MITES will perish in that time? In that time, you can expect that pretty much that virtually all of the Mites in that colony are going to perish, because they do not seem to be able to survive for more than a couple of days without brewed on the adult depopulation. It's very possible that are simply not able to feed for Oh destructor has a body that is designed specifically for them to be able. Able to wedge themselves between the plates that make up the bee's body, so they can access the most nutrient dense tissue in the body. They get a lot of nutrition by being able to climb onto the abdomen. Go between the plates of the abdomen, stick their mouth parts there and feed on on that bees fat body. Tripoli laps. Don't have that ability. They're shaped. Odd till shape to their body, the doesn't allow them to which between the plates, it also doesn't allow them to hang on very well when the Beezer and flight, and so they don't hang on well to forager's They don't seem to do well hanging onto two nurses, and they don't seem to be able to feed on them, so they're pretty useless in this phase when they're on the adult population as part of the reason why they it seems like they are moving in the direction, evolutionary of eliminating it all together, but it's not something that just happens in one quick out. There is a refreshing news. There is a natural defense. Beekeepers can use without having to use poison. That is very true us. Do they use any poison over there? They do so. There are several different chemicals that are used but unfortunately. A lot of them are too expensive for most of the population to be able to afford on a regular basis, and so people have been experimenting with a lot of a lot of oils there which fortunately are less damaging to the bees in a number of ways, but lemongrass oil is one chemical that is That is used there. The one that I've been both fascinated by an perplexed by was the usage of format acid there because a lot of the beekeepers have told me that their method for controlling this parasite is to actually take. These wouldn't paint stirs so the same kind that you can get from like a home depot or Lowe's. They'll take these wooden paint stirs. Soak them in industrial grade Forma gasset which you can get from. These these shops that supply. Plantations the rubber plantations their use it to cause the rubber to conceal They soak these sticks in this fairy concentrated format gasset. It's so concentrated. You cannot be near this stuff. When you open the CAP, it will burn your eyebrows off. It's very concentrated stuff. They soak it overnight, and then slipping into the front of the colony and I have a video. That I showed if myself. And a few. A couple of people who I was working with were inserting these into the fronts of colonies and the immediate reaction that you get from the bees, the bees hate it. They fall all over themselves to get out of the entrance of that colony. The second you slide those things in there. It looks ridiculous, but it is effective because you're not so worried about the adult population of bees, the adult population beezus getting out, but the the brood that stuck in there. They are constantly being exposed to this vapor. This vapor that is functioning as few again in is able to penetrate those waxed sell. Camping's getting there and actually killed the mites below the capping have worked very hard to actually verify. Since I was going through in my thirty-six colonies in Thailand every single week. We're going through a frame out of the colony. Looking at the number of Mites that were dead below the capping and I've got some pretty solid. We weren't able to finish the full data set because unfortunately covid nineteen had other plans for where I would be this year. But we're able to to see that this form of acid works. To Kill the below the capping, unfortunately, it is just harsh on the bees themselves very harsh. You can kill because the dosage itself is not. Regulated in this If you have would that happens to be a bit more porous, it can absorb more of the Forma Gasset, because the release of it is not in any way, standardized different levels of heat can cause it to be released more quickly or more slowly. You just really don't know what you're getting and just sliding these paints tres into the colony, but it does work. How long do they leave him on just? Just takes about a day and usually they're spent after that. Not that I am regularly. As a as the United, States Department of Agriculture, researcher. Can vary abundantly. Clear that I am not recommending this to anyone we do actually have options are disposal for the application of formed acid that are standardized that are substantially less dangerous to us and the bees, and it would be much wiser to have those at your disposal. They're just more expensive, overseas and actually and we're talking about. Trump allows to so. Yes fortunately, we're not dealing with that yet. I was going to mention that. Though we do have we do have a a routine that works with bees and and our mites that we could probably easily. Easily! Easily but it would certainly worked for both at the same time. Well now. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to going to have to problem at that particular assumption. There can because I liked that. I liked that you're thinking about that. What could we do quickly if AAA laps arrived where we'd be able to potentially eradicated or control it at least bring it under control. The problem is that even though the differences between its life cycle and burrows last cycle are subtle. They make all the difference the fact that so we wouldn't be able to to use the typical drone trapping measures that have discussed earlier because they don't have that attraction to the drums, but what about other methods that we could potentially modify? US, amateurs turns out it seems like they're actually they've actually developed some level already to amateurs, and it's not an effective measure to begin with, because amateurs targets the population of the Mites that are on the adult bees so I've been going through and looking at more and more and more of our measures that we would potentially attempt to modify from zero to use against. Against AAA laps and it turns out the vast majority of what we use in terms of chemicals target the population on the adult bees. We have very few measures at our disposal. They're capable of penetrating the capping and going after those nights, and that's the reason why I was testing for acid while in Thailand in looking at its effectiveness because that would likely be. One of the best options at our disposal, or at least it's something in our toolbox that would potentially have some effectiveness against this parasite a. we don't have a lot of other options aside from that. Now something else that I. also tested in this process was These heaters that can actually be used on the colonies they'll, they can heat the colonies, and as a result of. This difference between the amount of heat that the adult bees are capable of dealing with and the amount of heat that these Mitra capable of dealing with there's a difference there of of several degrees, and so that gives you something to play with where you can actually kill the mites without killing the brood or the adult bees, and that is also an effective means of impacting on these nights. I am still collecting data on this and will need to return to Thailand in order to finish this project, but preliminary work. On that both of those options show some level. In killing these parasites now have actual numbers for you the next time you see me. That's amazing. You you. You've been doing your work in, Thailand. Where else are these Mites? So the mice are distributed throughout Southeast Asia and that was their original. Location in the world unfortunately. Some, very enterprising trouble elapsed might just decided one day. You know what? I want to see the world and it of struck out on its own. It stopped just feeding on the Asian Bees and transferred over to Apis Melissa. I'm because Apis Melissa is managed all over. The world is organism has been able to move from country to country to country, and that's the reason why it's kind of got people up in arms because we're. We're worried about where it could end up next, so seen them. Start making their way out of southeast, Asia. Asia they are found in other regions of the world now, so South Asia They are now found in Korea where they were not found before they have relocated to areas of Bangladesh and India, and seemed to be making their way toward the Middle East and so there are concerns about the The ability of this might to move from country to country to country and one of the greatest concerns that we've seen there is that these mites seem to be? They seem to be. Finding ways to just kind of undermine our expectations of them, because we thought that these mites would not be able to deal with winter. That was our saving grace. We said Vero was able to spread because Varroa are able to deal with cold temperatures because they can. They can live on the population of adult bees when there is no brewed in the colony. AAA laughs doesn't have that ability, and so totally left will not be able to survive winters. We will be totally fine over here in the US with our frostiness for a substantial portion of the year. We won't have to worry about these parasites. And then they moved into China and Korea and we started getting really nervous because they weren't supposed to be able to do that. Apparently, they didn't read any of the papers that we wrote about. They had no idea what the rules were and I. I think that now that we've seen that. This organism is adjustable enough to be able to to to thrive in Korea in China. We really need to be thinking through how we would handle. Them potentially showing up in our world. You know how they're surviving. The winters in the northern latitudes don't know yet, so that's one of the questions that I was over there to better understand. It they're these organisms are absolutely fascinating so something. That I've been trying to understand my time. There have had a few questions I'm attempting to answer. How were they surviving the winter? That's a big question because this parasite is pretty wild, one of the things that's rather wild about it if you go back to so. If you're listening to the the first appearance I had on this podcast. All you you beekeeping today regular listeners. Back in twenty eighteen November. Yeah, remember. Who that was so young. Work. You may have heard me talking about how. Something that is is fascinating when you are. Researcher is going back to the earliest papers that have been written about an organism to hear how this creature was described. What are some of the things that when we didn't know pretty much anything about it? What were some of the first things we discovered about these creatures well, if you go all the way back to the very first story of AAA laps, you find that in the scientific literature. It was described as a parasite rats. And this weird spiny rat Mike Creature. was found on rats and. Continue to be considered a parasite of rats for almost a decade before. Before the record was corrected. And I think that is really important to us. Understanding what is going on with this parasite now because there are a number of parasites that actually used to different hosts as a means of navigating different elements of the creatures, life cycle, because the bees that does Paris is originally from so trump laps was originally a parasite of Asian. HONEYBEES, specifically giant honeybees in giant honey. Bees are migratory species, and because these parasites don't hang on well in flight it. It seems to be the case that as these BS relieving these minds were left behind on the cone, else possible that during that portion of the year those parasites were then utilizing creatures like rats as what we call a secondary or alternative host in so if that is the case, then that may be their means of surviving periods where there is no brewed in the colony periods like the winter, if they're capable of actually leaving attaching to an alternative host using that organism as a source of warmth and potentially food throughout a period like the winter. That may actually answer our questions, so that's a hypothesis. That I've been looking to trying to better understand this creature. And that that curiosity about the earliest elements of an organism scientific history, I, think has served me well enough. Union the Study of Aurora, determining that it's actually feeding on fat body that I'd like to see if it'll actually serve me again. With destroyed collapsed parasite. Before you left Thailand. You had certain. Notions, certain ideas you're, GONNA look at. Once you got there and got on the ground and start looking at it. What surprised you the most what? Thought changed? The most for you. Also great question out wet thought changed the most for me. Just when I first got to Thailand and started studying this parasite, I had some ideas about it's You know what when I first started studying Tripoli laughs. I was very worried that this organism, the ways that it infiltrates the Brood, the ways that it seems to have this this damaging impact on bees without actually without needing the the the elements of of viral components to cause deformities. I was really worried that the bees themselves wouldn't. A very effective means of controlling this creature. Innately available to them. But I've found that the Asian honeybees. Seem to have a number of mechanisms to control this parasite. And APIS Melih Fra, even as as much as it. It seems to be vulnerable to parasites. In general, these organisms are trying. They are working very hard to find these parasites on. They seem to be able to to to detect them below the capping, and so they're running around capping cells. There seems to be something in them that. That that knows that there is enough of a problem. It seems almost like the evolutionary arms. Race here is being fought on both sides in the bees are trying, and so it is my hope. That what I'm seeing, there is an emerging evolutionary defense against these parasites, but another problem that I don't think people often recognizes that evolution tends to take. A very lengthy period of time. And so, that was the first thing. I guess that's more about the bees than it is. The parasites but that was the first thing that really occurred to me here. Is that on the bees themselves are trying, and if we can find ways to help them along in this process, that may be helpful. Also For Tripoli laps themselves. I think. What surprised me a fair bit about them. Was So. I developed a means of actually peering into the cells while the MITES and the bees are developing. I've created a a half wax half glass sell. That kind of allows me to be an eavesdroppers on this process. Normally everything that goes on. There is kind of a bit of a mystery. All we can do is uncapped. The cells at different periods in say after twenty four hours. This is what it looks like. After forty eight hours is what it looks like, but we stop all the behaviors that happened there where we uncapped sell, but being able to peer down into it and look at what's going on into the cell itself and actually record those behaviors Do you start to see some really fascinating things here? And something that really struck me about Tripoli lapses. That actually doesn't seem to be that great at its job. The most surprising thing to me about AAA lapses that it doesn't seem to really know what it's doing as well as Rodas borough is life cycle several elements of its biochemistry are very very very well fine tuned for them to be with bees. Everything that they do is just connected with some element of the bees development aaa laps seems to be very early in its evolutionary development on bees, and as a result of that, it's doing a fair bit of trial and error itself and a lot of times. You will see error when Tripoli elapsed. Go into these cells a lot of the time. They don't produce offspring. There are there's just something that doesn't seem to be stimulated in them to allow them to actually produce offspring in this process, and there's a lot of waste going on as they go back and forth something that. I try to acclimate people to when I'm giving talks about parasites is to let them know that there is a difference between a parasite and appears toy. A. Parasite is an organism that feeds on a creature. And utilizes it sometimes even as a home. I want to kill that creature. What we often think about as a parasite. We're thinking about Paris toys. We think about the creatures from alien that are described as parasites, but they're not that is the Perez avoid any organism that needs to kill its host in order to develop that is paranoid, and so there are wasps that fly around Stinger Caterpillar and the baby. Wasp will develop inside the Caterpillar. Then burst out of his back. while. The relationship that you see there is one that is fine tuned for specifically that sort of connection, but a parasite is a bit different, because it wants to keep its host alive, so it can complete its life cycle so that it's babies can potentially use that that host as an option. Varroa is a parasite on its original host in April Serena The original host for. These systems have this system generated between each other. They've brokered a deal that allows for even though it's a parasite, even though it's a problem in the colony, it's not such a big problem that actually leads to the death of these organisms, and you can usually judge. How fine tuned a parasite host relationship is by how usual it is that this parasite will cause the death of the hoax win. A parasite is in its natural setting the way that it's supposed to be. It usually will not kill it. Toast Tripoli laps pretty much always kills its host. And it is very bad at maintaining itself out within the colony, just overruns the colony it destroys it. It behaves more like a pair of toyed than it does appear site and that is a testament to the fact that it is not really developed the fine tuned relationship that we usually see after years of millions and millions of years of evolutionary time. It's off season relationship. It has with rats. sensually. Wow! So you're going back now, you're going back to Thailand. How soon do you think you can get there? Every time I think that I might be able to go back. There's more and more information that comes out about Kobe nineteen them believing that it probably won't be until some time next year. wral actually be able to go back actually having to leave was. Financially. And scientifically a difficult decision to make when the State Department released travel advisory and upgraded things to a level four travel advisory. I was thinking to myself. You know what I'm right. In the middle of the last round of experiments I've spent a substantial amount of money buying scaling up to this huge this this very large size production that we've got here with all of these colonies at by each one of the colony's myself at the bio, this equipment to use on them. These gas detectors to measure concentrations of gases inside the colonies at. It was a lot and having to cut things in the middle. Add to. Give the keys away. To figure out what to do with the equipment I couldn't just leave it in Thailand, so all of this equipment had to be shipped back in order to get it shipped back in time that costs thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. It was a lot all at once and so now in considering going back. It's not just the quick decision. Well, I have on a plane. Take all of those things back now got pay ship. All of that heavy equipment back to Thailand the microscopes. The now the gas detectors, their special regulations for. If you want to ship chemicals, there's a whole different shipping system for all of that giving it. They're getting it set up again. And buying all the colonies necessary, it's going to run a substantial amount of money. That wasn't in the original budget for this project, so it looks like I am going to have to figure out how to under this project again in order to finish the rest of the process, and so not only do I have to wait until the COVID. Nineteen situation gets worked out on the world wide scale, which could take some a substantial amount of time as we attempt to develop a vaccine. I have to figure out the financials of it is. Do you still have your go fund me up for this I do so it might go fund me I might need to update. Stopped. Because yeah. Maybe relying on that sort of help again, I really appreciate that beekeepers got so invested in this process to the point where they felt like stakeholders in this. They're like you know. These? Are Bees they're important to all of us whether people know it or not. Those bees are putting food on your table on everyone's table. And, so the ways that beekeepers really jumped in and decided to fund this project. It honestly changed my direction of of my life at that point in the way that I think about science because I, I love how invested people become in these processes when they have their own set of input other financially, but when they can also hear about how a project being built from the ground up I, talked about this on the the beekeeping today podcast last time about this project, and then heard more people become interested in this, and I'm semi messages about how much they wanted to to see project. Go forward, and I may have to. Undertake a a a a new round of that, but also there are wonderful options available. Through things like the National Science Foundation national, geographic and other things I'll avail myself, too you so that things won't be entirely connected with on the fundraising process, which is stressful and. The work that you've been able to accomplish in the last couple of years. To pro, you know that that in itself is a self promotion and helps. Fund going forward. Yeah, so we only have a few minutes left. What are you working on next? Before you go back to Thailand what are you? What is he working on the next year? Great question so I am working on two different projects at the moment. I'm working on a means of adapting. The discoveries that were made about Roy feeding on fat body. To figure out how best we can utilize that against Roe, and so we've been working on better understanding this for some time now we'll be. Putting out some some research into publication of. Some elements of that that that we've been learning about because the fat body has a number of proteins. That the MITES themselves need in order to initiate reproductive processes in their own bodies in disruption of the mites ability to process these proteins or even The their ability to utilize these proteins in their own bodies. Can Be an effective means potentially. Of keeping the Mites from continuing their reproductive processes, and if they can't reproduce well, then, their population can't grow in eventually dies out some we're working on A. Not only better understanding how the might do this, but better understanding how we can impede the MITES during this and future. That's something that I'm hoping can even potentially be adapted towards usage against the AAA laps might since so we're. We're looking at that as well the summer. I am also continuing to work on the work. I was conducting in Thailand in the US on Varroa. So as optimize elements of the system that will allow me to hit the ground running when I returned to Thailand, but will also allow for comparisons with burroughs life cycle the ways that we originally described rose life cycle required. A lot of work in opening the cells and looking inside then. Ask. Some researchers with the Swiss be Latte came up with this amazing idea to take pictures throughout the life cycle using plastic cells. And I've adapted some elements of that system to make it a bit more cosy for the Mites using. Wax For most the cell and just glass for the top of it. Allowing me to appear through NC inside, but now I want to do that with Barua in see what elements of the description of the life cycle of Verona may need to be updated on. What can we learn from seeing the entirety of the process of Verona's development on on on developing bs that can then be compared with AAA laps this so that we can compare contrast and better understand what we're working within this person. So. That's what I'm working on. Now win. I. Am able to go into the lab, but unfortunately there there's not a lot that I can do from home so really right now. Working on writing up my research that I could back and be disseminated to the public and counting the days until the state home order is over, and I can continue my research in. Yeah, yeah, we're all working whom? Totally off topic, we're talking about a little bit before. What's new in the Music Front? You used you plan you doing anything recorded anything. Well, so, what's new on the music frank? This might just be the kick in the pants. Because, I haven't updated my music channels in ages, but while I was in Thailand. Actually recorded some music in. so I love time music and I was working on a song recorded. It did a little bit of a video for it and just never put it online, which is ridiculous. So I should actually put that out there but I also sang a song that I used to hear a lot when I was a kid. That I would also like to put online. It's when I sang at. One meeting was this. ooh, I don't WanNa say the. One of the large. Sing at the banquet and. Give some presentations and I. I sang at the Bank. Rates colors of the wind, and I really wanted to put that that version of it, but my own I'm version online as well and so. We'd be glad to help you with that. I, mean you guys have all the recording equipment? Thank you. Jeff has got some serious. Jeff is we can yes, well Mike. You got a nice Microsoft there. Yeah, we some we. We've got some stuff. We can use them we can. Jeff can we jam next time? Let's do that. You, Kim. Do you play anything now? I listen. To the radio. Anything else. Can we LET SAM get back? Get back to work. I'm exhausted listening. What a story Sammy thank you so much for being with us today bringing us up to date once you get back or the next time you have time ring us up and we will get you back here to finish the story we will. For sure I really appreciate that Kim. I really appreciate. Getting the opportunity to talk more about the research that I'm. Fun Time really appreciate it and look forward to having you banks emmy, the great thanks a lot. Thanks a lot thinking. I I'm I'm lost for words. This was A. Pretty Amazing in. AAA laps. That's a scary thing. Exhausted staffer having listened to it. I can't imagine having to do with it on a daily basis although some of what he had to say today, what Sami had to say today sounded like there's like be something good on the horizon so. I think with folks like him. with him looking at the problem, we might have a chance and the one thing that We want to remind people of the he's gotTa go fund me. Thing up there and you can get to it from our web page to help him pay for his next trip back and his next back is got to be made because we got to solve this problem before it gets here. Yeah. We don't want those things here. We're talking offline with Salmon I was telling him that. There are youtube videos. The AAA laps on comb and a Scudder skit scattered. They run around on edge comb very fast I mean he did mention about. The zero is kind of lumbers, tumbles along on the on the larva, and it's kind of like a big papa bear, just kind of lumbering along. AAA laps. They are like they're on crack. They're on. They're on speed. They're just all over that one hundred miles an hour. It seems in the first thing I thought of just having all of those on my hands and. That gave me the willies I'll be I'll be straight up about that I. wouldn't those in my in my? Scared me. I'm GONNA have nightmares. I I hope you don't sleep well, Jeff will. This is good. This was good I. I hope people listened in enjoyed it because it was fascinating. Yeah it was. It's always a treat. Ham, Sammy on the show. Well that about wraps it up for this episode of Beekeeping Today podcast before we go I want to encourage our listeners to raise five star on apple podcasts. Wherever download streaming show. Your vote helps other beekeepers find this quicker. Be Culture the magazine for American beekeeping from sponsorship of this episode. We also want to thank our regular episodes sponsored global patties. Check them out www dot global patties dot com, and finally we WANNA. Thank you, the beekeeping today podcast listener, joining us on the show feel free to questions and comments at questions at beekeeping today PODCAST DOT com. We'd love to hear from you anything else Kim. Wraps it up. Jeff was a good day. Yeah, it was well. Thanks a lot. Say.

Thailand AAA Tripoli Sammy Jeff truckee Verona US Kim researcher Mike Creature. AAA Southeast Asia Doctor Samuel Ramsey Youtube Vero WanNa Korea Roy Tripoli Bee Culture magazine
1531: F45 Review, How to Minimize Fat Gain When Eating to Build Muscle, the Truth About Meal Frequency & More

Mind Pump

1:19:28 hr | Last month

1531: F45 Review, How to Minimize Fat Gain When Eating to Build Muscle, the Truth About Meal Frequency & More

"You want to pump your body and expand. Your mind is only one place to go up with your hosts sal distefano adam schaeffer unjust andrews. Hey you found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. this is mine pump. All right in today's episode. We answered fitness and health. Questions were asked by listeners and viewers just like you but the way we opened the episodes with an intro portions re talk about what's happening in our lives we're talking about current events. Go through the news. What's happening about scientific studies. We bring up our sponsors. Here's what went down today's episode. The central portion was forty eight minutes long. We open up by talking about adams. Haircut apparently takes forty five minutes to shave his head. I don't know it's really weird. Some with his beard then. We talk about red skull. He's the villain in the captain america series and apparently. Now he's jordan peterson. Yeah whatever makes no sense then. Justin talked about ski cougars That he saw up in the mountains. Then we talked about barbecuing. It's getting warm over here in california. We've been barbecuing crazy. One of our favorite places to get high-quality grass-fed meat is butcher box and right now with mine pump. You get hooked up fat. You get a free essentials. Bundle in your first box. That means you get three pounds of chicken breast two pounds of pork chops and two pounds of ground beef. You ready for this for life. Forever is pretty cool. Oh and an additional ten dollars off your first box. Use our code. Go to butcher box dot com forward slash mind. Pump use the code mine. Pump full fat saturated fat then. I talked about my baby son and how he likes. Squeeze mama's boobs which is pretty. He's like his dad. Wow then we talked about the economist. Harry dent predicting a huge crash in the next coming month. Then we talked about a show on netflix. About art robbery which was interesting. We talked about how testosterone is crashing and. I read some pretty scary statistics though we talked about. How muscle is protective. Even if you're fat even if you're overweight or obese having more muscle is protective then we talked about tonal and their valuation. Then we brought up Getting rid of plastics to help your hormones and that led us talking about muir who makes some pretty amazing good cops that are not Plastic they're not going to hammer your hormone levels by the way You can go to mir dot com slash pumps. That's m. i r. Dot com forward slash. Mine pump checkout products. Also if you go to the mind pump merchandise site and use the code trainers. That's t. r. a. i n. e. r. z. At mine pump. Store dot com. That's my pumps dot com. If you get yourself a pair of suspension trainers. you'll also get a free cup. Zero camp mug. That's a mere camp mug with your purchase. This special ends friday the sixteenth at midnight Then we got into the questions. Here's the first one. This person says wait without gaining body fat. The next question there's person says look what's the evidence on eating. Small meals is better or should. I just eat two meals a day. The third question want this person wants to know what our opinion is of f. Forty-five training in the final question. This person wants to know what we think about percentage based training or are based training a huge promotion because it's april and it's warming up. We put a couple programs actually put a program in a bundle at fifty percent off sale to help everybody get in shape for summer so program the first program that's on sale is maps anabolic. Fifty percent off. Then we put the shredded summer bundle on sale fifty percent often the shredded bundle includes maps aesthetic maps prime maps hit and the intuitive nutrition guides so both of those fifty percent off huge promotion. Here's how you get that. Go to maps fitness products dot com and then use the code april special with no space for the discount shirt. And it's t-shirt do more favorite time of the week. We've got two big winners here. One for apple podcast one for facebook. The apple podcasts winner is mainly four four three and four facebook. it's jordan maili. Is there any relationship there or is it the same person for both of you or the one of you is the winner. Send the name. I just read to tunes at mine. Pump media dot com. Include your shirt size and your shipping address and we'll get that shirt right out to. Yes you guys. Look very nice. Thank you as well. Here's what i want to know. Is it takes a long. Your hair's just done it's the beard. Yeah so can. I spend a lotta time in your head to one hundred times now. Yeah it's not. The real question is like which one of us took her shirt off. He added that. I have the seventies most. Am to this to a so we have. We have a barber shop now right. So that's the that's the new thing and I go i. I gave my haircut takes a long time right. 'cause takes a lot of work to make this look like the way it does right here just wakes up. This is a lot of work to be lot of a lot of work to be a five cent so lower than just then sal and then sell any chance or excuse to take his shirt off you know like wanna get. We'll get here. I don't want hear my unicorn shirt you know what i'm saying saying you can appeal it down to two shirts. This is also a chested. not like little hairy. The hairs get stuck in my heart flutter a little bit or she she get a little nervous after you did that or working with this. Might say oh. You're the buff guy. Oh now. I can see why. You're into fitness. Yeah no no no. I don't like the hairs dude. When i get little hairs in here. God i want to punch someone in the face shower. Yeah so i feel. I'm making fun of my unicorn. This dude that's great. I promised right word on the podcast a couple of times now whenever i wear send her the youtube and she gets all excited a speaking of t shirts. Did you order michaela. Peterson's t shirts did you did. Oh good smart. She made a t-shirt shirt of him being read school. That got to break down the video. This is a this is insane. So and i thought it was like. Did you pull up his quote by chance. I asked you to do. i didn't pull up. I wanted you to pull. Yeah but i did. I did i mean. Did you see the whole okay. So here's what happened for. People don't break down so marvel Comex they put out a new Another captain america. Comic red skull is one of his arch nemesis. If people know the red skull literally was like a super villain nazi magical nazi villain. I don't mean figuratively. I mean literally. He was a nazi in fact the original american What's his name Captain america comics were during that time and he was fighting nazis. That was the original comic books back in the day. I used to love america anyway. Red skull was this snotty guy so this new comes out and read. School literally has ten rules for life in the comic book and a good chunk of them are like right off of jordan. Peterson's tendrils for life right and it's it was deliberate. I mean the more you look into it like the more things you could. Totally like correlate between what he's put out in what the i i don't get it like. He's he's done. He spent his entire career talking about the terrible terrible totalitarianism is how bad nazism is. Communism is i mean. It's all he talks about and he's been called a nazi before which is ridiculous but this is like a whole 'nother level right. They made him an actual fantasy character. Now do you. Do you subscribe to this being political propaganda move. I think you want to be my theories. Wanna two things. One is the guy person who wrote. it knows. we'll sell bunch by doing that. It causes an online through that that could be true. Think of how many people are buying it just for that. Yeah no that's a good point. Well so you now you have to share. 'cause i watched the clip Michaela peterson came. She did a whole little like youtube clip on on this this whole thing right and she even says that you know at first i just thought it was people making a big deal and like you know everyone tries dropped make connections with something and she's like. Oh no. this is blatant. Yeah very blatant. It's my dad. So i love absolutely love how they're handling this So what they what she's decided to and she's came out and said that any time this happened. So if you're gonna continue to slander my father instead of us getting up in arms and making a big deal about it. What we're going to do is we're gonna we're gonna make light of it and we're gonna make merch and then we're gonna so not just a prophet what we're gonna do one hundred percent of the proceeds and we're gonna give to a good cause that's even better. I love that it was and what they did with the sure was it was so hydra is like the the group that red schools part of whatever year. Yeah so they took the hydra emblem and they made it until like lobsters. Because you know there's that whole thing and And that's and that's the shirt. So i'm like i gotta support you get that so i'm very smart. I like that. I think that's such a smart strategy on media. If someone is messing with you just take it spin in pointed in a good direction because makes you makes it very hard to attack. You did you. Did you find the quote doug. I was talking about so on the youtube video that she did she. It's in the youtube notes. I'll just absolutely butcher. If i try and repeat jordan the notes. Yeah it's if you go to the youtube that she linked she right the very top or in the in the section. It talks about a statement that her father always says about taking evil something evil and then turning like out of it except for obviously peterson always uses a much bigger words than that. But it's it's he speak big. Were very eloquent. So if you if you if you read it I wanted to read it. I wanna i wanted you to read it. Because i thought i'm gonna find it right now. See if i can pull up the it's in okay let's see here Now the quotes not in the notes is said out of ignorance. Malevolent slander we will thereby derives some palate palpable good. Yeah that's a that's it. Isn't that great yeah. I think that's awesome. Yeah what a cool way to put a spin on that too. It's an interesting time. Right with people attacking each other through media. And i guess the the winters always a smarter person not always the angry person. I think. Sometimes you come across angry. Yeah it makes you look defensive or week. I do agree with justin theory though. I think that this could have been just a strategy to to sell more right for on their part before. Peterson got credit for that. So sorry never thinks it's on on tape. Have a good weekend. Would you were you. Were up in the up in the up in the mountains. You've got the polls out to. Did you fly fishing fly. Fishing got the boys Out and and we. We did some practice. Obviously we didn't get much in terms of a nivel or any kind of Luck there but that's okay like it's gonna take multiple trips of us getting better and like practicing for him to get it but they enjoyed it. Which i was really stoked on and then we went. We went For our last run so it was like the last. I don't know if it was technically the last day but as one of the last days that other resorts were opened so we went and we were able to go a board and one last time We were sitting there. It was kind of funny. I was You know people watching. It's a great place when you're up there in the lodge and just sitting there and kind of chill and I noticed this this group of that were like over forty s. Whatever sort of cougar. Kind of Category if you will And these guys had had walked up to them all like hey ladies doing their pitch and whatever and so they're kind of and whatnot. I'm just slightly paying attention. Because i got nothing better to do. And they start talking and flirting and this and that and then they he. The guys give her the his number. They leave whatever immediately. They go on instagram and they're just roasting guy between all all four of them. There it is. Oh look at this. Look at this picture. I'm like oh my god. This is a thing like this is what people do now. You realize that when you give a number it's like now you have like all the visuals and everything else that you can just start scrolling through it and just you know if this person does this like that's weird way. So did the guys think they had like the make. It seem like the guys had a chance when they were talking. Oh totally oh. They're they're they're all he hang out later. Oh we have men are no. We are no match for women. No no no i. I like inside. Were blown away from watching from the side. Yeah i'm like this ladies are nasty. This is the game though that reminds me of member when we had enzo the kid that was fresh out of high school and he was talking about. How like the way that you meet or start talking to somebody now. It's not you wouldn't wa- if you're at a partisan morass if you're a big party and you saw girl across the room that you were interested in. She's in the room in the room across the way at this big party would you do. And he's like. Oh well you get on her facebook page and you request a friend request and then only if she accepts you then comment to a she responds. Then you so weird. I know this is the this is like our generation older than us. Even like this is how they're doing that the single thing. Well i mean besides that to me with that highlights is again. We're no match the dude. Probably guarantee you. Because i know this is what guys do. They probably left and their conversation. Probably like okay dude. She she told me wants to being. Or you know what i mean and the women are like look at look at look at them in a swimsuit or look up. What an idiot or that that girls trying to be all ha like this and then she calls him later that night and friends. Don't you think so when they all go home. yeah do. do you want another drink. Nam loser hey what are you doing so. I wonder how many times that happens. And you you know guy or girl right then you go and you look the person up and they look like nothing with the person you just met like because so many people photoshop filters iden. It's the best of everything is on instagram and stuff like how many times has someone will meet somebody and then get their information and then go look up on their social media and like. Oh my god. This person super hot on instagram. Well especially if you're wearing oscar ski close. You don't get any kind of real semblance of with their body working with. I don't know how i would i would. I don't know if i'd like it the way it is now. A you know the old ways you just shoot a spitball at or something in the room and attention. You'll fill a drink hunter. In the i gotta i gotta random. Dm actually got a couple from that episode that we did remember when i brought up the whole burger. Dan thing right yes. He was literally kay listening to our show and doing their door dash driving around and had just picked up from denny's and he was messaging me saying like. Oh my god this. It's he says it's all branded so you go to denny's you pick it up but you pick up a burger den bag and everything and it has no resemblance of denny's when you go there. Wow so this makes we. I wonder how many companies are doing. Why not if door dashes exploding. And everybody's got their door. That's brilliant if you ask me totally 'cause now you can have a kitchen. Fresh new start. If you if you have a restaurant you have a kitchen so you could be like. Hey you want to start a chinese restaurant and you you exactly. You could literally be a burger. Dan you could be a taco place and all of that can becoming from denny's but you can brand it four different ways and sell to now now. Here's the deal. Because part of me. tricksters parties. Like you know what if they're good. They'll do well if they're not there. No i'm not against order a burger from there even if i could say whatever. It was a burger. Dan can say whatever if i eat it. And it's gross and enough people do that. It's gonna get bad rating no ones. Who want to know. I it smart. I found a fair. I found a place on a door dash by my house that i've driven by anytime wants to the name. Because i'm gonna. I'm gonna say good things but also bad things i used to drive by the time and they didn't look good that the outside didn't look good. I was like it's not gonna be good. I saw them on. Door dash didn't connect to. I just saw the name. I order from them. Amazing food amazing food and that is an example of a place that was because door dash. I tried and loved and if there was just brick and mortar. I would have never given him a second I wouldn't even look at them because the way the building and everything look are so powerful. There was a barbecue place like that got ownership but i was just so turned off by my last experience. I i i went there like i would never go there otherwise but if i was to see it in a different branding and you know they delivered i tried it and then found out where it was from woah. Okay i'll give it another shot barbecue stuff. I do you guys. I noticed like how fast i go through my butcher box now that they were into spring now. Are you guys the same way. Like when i was over the wintertime the have meat freezer right so we have everything on auto so the butcher box gets you get the big box I think in simplest wonder has organized. I think it is the biggest box and in the wintertime. I find that we start to kind of fill the freezer up. It's like i'll get around to cooking that or i don't play but are right away. Springtime hits the nice weather and stuff like that. I'm out grilling so much. It's so go. Find the big box and have add ons. And i still use it. Because i just i i use it i have it i use it i love it. I get an now. I'm to the point where it's mostly tried. Tips flank steak and rib is. Those are the ones that i eat. The most and i'll have the pork chops and steaks chicken and all that now and the trigger and then burgers and all that kind of stuff. I'll still do on the grill. Do simultaneous ito. So i'm like cooking it all. 'cause i'm trying to do it sundays and we're trying to do more of a prop where we're putting a lot of the media time i got to do that. Yeah i started that so. That's every time i've done that before. It's helped tremendously. I'm not doing that right now. And when i do my diet is always of course always way but of course and you save money. Yeah it's way better because we just were where we just at when i was I wanted only went up to truckee lassen i. I wanted us to do chicken barbecue chicken instead. Do you guys not eat chicken as much. I eat a lot of sugar and you probably chicken among chicken. Because it's just has this weird consistency like when we went to grill and it was kind of like chewy grizzly kind of tasting. But once i started cooking on the triggers a totally different experience better. I i do red meat most of the time. Yeah i'd say. I probably meat every single day. And i'd say i probably chicken two or three times a week so i love red meat. I just makes me feel. The best tastes the best if i do chicken. It's ties. i. Don i don't do too often although i did. I did a little stint with breast because of the because it was so easy to get a lot approaching through. I never breasts anymore. Yeah you know and it's your when you when you look at the the macro is it's not that you're not like saving that many calories in the thighs thighs. You can cook the cook. Or you're saying prepping on sunday and then i can reheat it two or three era and because of all the fat. It's still good. You do chicken breasts and then you reheat chicken breast. Yeah i want to ask you because your your son you know. He's he's still he's still breastfeeding. No not more. Once we hit the one we hit one year at the one year mark. Maybe about a month afterwards. She was so when he was. Because i do this at. The radius is hilarious. I'll tell you a story but When he was breastfeeding. Did you ever mess with him. Like where he's on he's on the boob and you go down and pretend like you're going to away. What would he do. Yeah no he's. He pushes his hand on my thanks. He'll push my hand like that and he still is like this semester with him when he's eating or something like that the stiff arm. Oh yeah i went in there. And i was like i pulled him off. Like i was gonna take the milk for larry and then he does this thing where he's when he's breastfeeding. He'll take his face off and look at her nipple or whatever and then you'll take his hand he'll grab poop and he'll like squeezing or try to get like a little milk about that he'll do move back. Can you stop playing with my mind. What month fi where we were. We were Think five and a half five and a half months. Okay how now how the nights right now or have you. Guys committee was doing good and then he did a little bit of a regression or there was some challenges. Yeah so but he seems to be going back but we had to do the whole all this morning. In fact just had this the first time it's happening now this happened to me. This happens every parent that i know of where training thing you let your kid cry and one time parents had this at least one time you let your kid cry. They don't stop crying. Let them cry. let them cry. You go in there and then they pooped a diaper. You realize there was some shit that happened. Yeah and i remember the first time that happened to me my oldest son where he was screaming crying. Whatever i'm like now he'll go back to sleep. Winning there is poop everywhere. I felt so terrorists. Still about happened jessica this morning. She's letting them cry. Let them cry and she goes in there and then there was so i come i come in from the garage and the look on her face was like she was gonna cry. She's holding him and he's in his little towel because she gave him a bath. You know and she's like it was pooped everywhere you know. Don't worry baby than me. And every now and then have it's you won't remember mine is going through this phase right now that i absolutely love and i wanna freeze time. I hope this last for a while but so on the weekends. I'm there for his nap right so during the week. I'm not there for his naptime like when he goes he naps like around noon or eleven or noon. Some are depending on. How early got up that morning and so during the week i'm not around for naptime whatsoever and katrina always says that sometimes it's hard for the nanny to get them down like he knows how to manipulate her. I've told you guys before he'll wanna play and then she ends up skipping cuteness. Yeah so he totally knows how to manipulate her together his nap so i'm never around for nat except for on the weekends and so what are routine kind of looks. Like is saturday saturday morning. He gets up and you know he kind of lays with us in bed around six thirty seven and his playing around. We'd watch a little bit of cartoons sometimes for about a half hour and then play in the in the morning time and then around like eleven o'clock or so. I know that he's getting kind of tired. And i'll normally turn on music. And i turn it on like youtube videos or whatever and as i turn it on and blair like wow that we're dancing and stuff like that susie sees me stand up like i'm gonna dance. He comes running over to many wants me to hold him and dance with them. And i'll dance with him and one song end he'll start to nussle as head into me and the music i'm telling you it was like full blast and he'll completely pass out on me like rock. Was that the video that you did this weekend. Oh yeah and then. He'll sleep on me for an hour and a half two hours. While i'm sitting there listening to music like full blast now if you turn the music off does you wake up so yeah if i can i can turn it down a little bit but it still needs to keep playing okay. So this is weird. This is an interesting thing. So it's the same thing with my with my son. Whatever sounders going on when he falls asleep has to continue from to stay asleep. So if we're having conversations and he falls asleep you gotta keep having conversations otherwise he wakes up so in other words get going quiet makes them wake now. He's the same way. If we pay in the ad i can take it from my blasting to like you know to wear because katrina is like it's so loud. She wants to leave. She's it's out and mike now. it's fine he likes it. I like it and so he'll fall asleep. And then i can. She can bring it down a little bit. But if she's we've done it before or she goes really low and then all of sudden he. He is startled. Any wakes up the noise. he's fine. He's an effort of some parents that even like they'll invite people over all the time and they'll stop and everything in in make sure that there's like lots of like noise. I was reading a lot of a lot of people recommended that to me. They said you know you wanna get them early on used to sleeping in that environment otherwise if you create this like perfect silent environment always for them. Good luck maintaining. Because then you're going to the inevitable's going to happen. You're gonna travel with them or he's going to be in an area where there's there's light or noise arbitrary or something exact now now i get. I understand the sentiment for that but the reality is they're still not getting as good asleep as when it's quiet so so for example i mean i could crash out and fall asleep in this room. But it's not gonna be as restful because of the bright lights even though i'm sleeping not the same so this is the struggle that we have like right do data. But i get that sentiment because you also don't want to create such a situation where they can't sleep unless everything's perfect and then they get no sleep. Sleep still ended up work. Because honestly i lost that battle. I was the one who was like. Let it be loud. Let the light be and everything like that. Katrina was like no like our room is she. Made me put I don't even know you could get this stuff home depots where we got it. You can put this inside your windows you can put lockout stuff yeah Like it's like a almost like a tent that you you put on there and just peels on an awfully easy so we have that then we have the blackout shades and then we have curtains over so like his room. It could be too late in the afternoon. And you can't see shit when we take the baby for a walk in. It's 'cause he falls asleep in the stroller. Sometimes we bought these little baby like headphones. That like gophers is yours. And just muffed outbound. So it's the funniest thing we put him on him if he lets us. Put them on them very effective. You'll stay asleep very long. But it's funny because they're big and he's got this little face. Dj squishy his cheeks. Oh then we finally fall. Asleep is like this song. Lift larry of to show this picture to juice. Go from you guys did you. Doug watch the the video that south until over the communists did you guys walks out having it now. Yeah so glennbeck had would you know the name of the guy. So there's a name of a really popular economists. Apparently he's predicted Some of the the previous crashes pretty. Well you really really a- according to him it was really accurate. How how well. He's predicted the other. Crashes and he came on glenn south senate over and i listened to it a really good conversation and he dairy dent harry dent so he predicts in the next forty five sixty days that we see this bubble bursts. That's been talking about for some time. Yeah well all the everything points to the fact that it's crazy. How much money. They're pumping into everything. I mean everything keeps going up like crazy. There has to be some consequences at the end of this logic. Yeah absolutely now. He says it's going to get real bad. Because they had the stock market bubble pop or the dot com bubble pov real estate bubble pop in two thousand eight. And he's saying that this next one is going to be a money bubble. Meaning that because we've just printing money and pumping into everything that's going to affect everything because if the money bubble pops than it doesn't matter now the now i agree more so glenn glenn beck actually argued with the murder. He challenged respectfully. I'd like to challenge that. And he says. I think that If we do see we're not gonna see it as soon as you think we're gonna say because he's calling forty five sixty days like this summer. Yeah he's yeah he saying. Love this around the corner. We're gonna see alarmist right this huge crash. And i think what glenn beck saying. Which is. i think we're going to see some crazy amount of money. Getting print came trill yes. I agree to see a lot of policies. Keep pushing it out. Keep pushing as long as they can to try and shield everybody from what the inevitable's rumor and i don't know if this is true. I don't know if you read this anywhere. But i heard that biden was trying to pass a relief. Bill for the forbearance is that would actually allow people that were behind on their mortgage to extend their mortgages to forty years. Yeah you brought it up. And i looked at. I couldn't find that anywhere. I remember where well nobody wants to feel. Nobody wants to be an office when the correction happens so the goal is to thome bit till the next year. a blame. Yeah pumping blame. Because what's gonna require if you're looking at it and you looking. Everything is okay. We need to fix this before explodes. Just like a huge ship. You still have you. You're going to have to cut stuff and make cost some pain and you don't wanna be the guy or girl charge to do that. You wanna you wanna be the out. It wasn't my fault it's an now you understand the the the logic behind like that. So i forget the name of that that the economic philosophy to just keep infusing money into the economy and it doesn't really exist. Well it does. The economics says that the you know they talk about. I don't think it's keynesian. i think it's There's another name for it. And i wish i could remember. I'll look it up. And maybe the next time on the podcasts will bring it up. But i think the the idea is that so long as it grows the gdp year-over-year that you can get away with it because how big the but you know what. Here's the problem with. Gdp this is. This is a big problem. Gdp gdp if let's say the government says we're going to spend ten trillion dollars on putting solar panels on every single building in america or something right that goes to gdp so it could be it could be they could say we're going to make We're going to create ten. Billion paper straws. We could make you know. We're gonna make everybody shirt red. We come up whatever they want if they spend it goes. Gdp so if government spending goes up gdp automatically goes up so that's it's a little bit misleading when you look at just gdp you're right. It is keynesian so it does. It does say that. The theory proposed the spinning voice. Over course right. I thought there was another term for four. That where you just keep pumping money and so long as it continues to increase the gdp. It's like the And and because of all the all the regulations they put in to protect the bank so they would never day would never fail after what we learned from. Oa yeah no. I if you. I mean the two competing schools of fought with. I guess what you call. Capitalism or free market economics would be austrian and kenzi can easy and But the big difference is one believes in more of this kind of injection of cash. Where's the other one believes more allowing the market to weed out bad or mala investment So this guy's theory. This harry guy unfortunate name heritage and can't get passed. Yeah anyway he He thinks that what's going to happen. Is that the central banks. Everyone's gonna turn on the central banks and finally say the this is a this is just not working and we need to get rid of them. And obviously it's whatever now glenn beck. I agree with him. He thinks what's going to happen. He goes no they're gonna level up and they're going to bring it on a global scale so the argument will be the reason why this happened. Everybody is because we need global currency. We need a global blink. We need global stimulus. That'll fix it. Yeah and i agree with him. I think just level up. That's what i i agree. I think what he says. I don't think we see a crash. Forty world order. Did any man just not exactly what it is sued. This talk is reminding me. Did you guys wanted to watch the new. It's a it's the largest Art robbery ever on netflix. Yeah i just watched the preview for that but that was an excellent really good so now okay so the i forget the name of it Wha what the name of that made. Look at the documentary. It's it's training in a top ten on net flicks right now. It's the largest art robbery. Something i don't know what the title is something like that so one of the things. I'm watching it right. So this is early on before i kind of this unfolds. And i'm thinking you know what like if someone steals a rembrandt or picasso. Like what the fuck do you do with it. I know to because you can't sell it. You even show it off because it's so famous that if some but the wrong person comes in your house and sees it now. I mean this is a time factor like if say ten years goes by twenty waiver. No way i try. And guess. Because i'm gonna give you the answer that blew my mind. So here's what. I would think i would think that you can sell it. There's a black market for. It's much less expensive or you make less money. But you'll sell to like some chic somewhere or some some party leader. Yeah somebody on. The mars is there. It's called it's called. this is a robbery. The world's biggest art heist. So you're partially right okay. So so so what i. Well what i speculated with katrina vanden it would be used as collateral on the so for example. So you're a big cocaine dealer and you've got you know ten kilos you normally when you drug deal you can sign that. So let's say just. I'm the big cocaine yes so justin's a big cocaine dealer ice apply him. I've got obviously doesn't use it right. I've got ten kilos that. I'm going to give you sing k. And in order for him to get that from me since he doesn't have the money to pay all that up front he would give me. This piece of art is collateral. So he could do that. But that's not even the number way number one way that this is actually used that. I had no idea about so because the art is such a big deal right. There's only one of these rembrandt. There's only one of these picassos. This i mean this gets the fbi involved like crazy. So what a lot of these these like a lot of people that are. you know. thief's what they do. Is they still these and they use it as as a bartering chip to get themselves out of jail. So you rob one of these these paintings you got this as like a get out of free jail card later on so five years down the road and you get pot for doing a bank robbery and the cops are just like. Oh you're going like you could say to them. Here's the deal i can. I can find this for you. Yes if you owe if you lighten my sentence sounds like we need pink panther. That's dave they actually interview like a notorious like a thief that had he s stole like hundreds and hundreds of more that he got away. We're really get your get out of jail. I didn't even cross my mind. Because all i can think about originally was like. What the hell do you do this. You can't sell it online it. Will you be caught right away. You can't hang it up in your house. I know because even if you hanging your house and one's gonna believe my bro- this is a real right. Believe you or they're gonna tell somebody like he's got that rembrandt that's been missing. I would think that you would sell on the black market horn this. What does that person gonna do like person who buys it is not well. I don't know because have you guys ever seen. Who's the the major drug kingpin of was he mexico south america pablo escobar. You've ever seen pictures of his house in his tigers and shit that he like real exotic raynham stuff someone like that would put shit up like that and his house gold. Uc's have you seen some of the pull up dog poop. Pablo escobar's helix. Golden lake assault rifles everywhere. Well he's also had a golden roof of the rule to the fbi is scared of that guy. You know what. I'm saying like somebody at that. Level is is really different. I'm saying also also read also thinking about this way. You just stole a rembrandt and you. You're like i want to sell this public. I don't yeah let's meet in person. Exactly how do you find that. I'll give this to for five million he goes. I'll take him for five dollars. Okay you may have. Cbc the house finance pablo escobar. Gold room or goal. You know weird. He owns tigers and monkeys. And he's got goal channel. I thought i thought that was really because that never crossed my mind that you could use it as a bartering chip of because it's so infamous right. There's only so many of these paintings that the f. b. is involved that's a big deal. Do their massive rewards out for it so you get caught up for some bank robbery and it's like hey i know where this you know that rembrandt that was stolen. Ten years ago is at. If i tell you where it's at or i get it for you will you lighten my sensor or let me off. Are they stealing this from museums or people's personal collections. Both actually so the the the guy that they interviewed in in the the documentary. He's everything he's stolen from private of facilities to up to museums and stuff. So do like i want to see like how he did it. Because don't they have like crazy lasers and security no said. This is just the biggest. You'd be blown away by the one that the biggest art robert so is estimated at two hundred million dollars in art was stolen from this place. Wow and it's not even all of it. There's a handful of things but if you saw how easy it was to the was like they were super vulnerable super bowl. There's watching took it. Yeah the security system was just as seen too many movies. Lasers your gonna break some kind of glass that comes out. Set with sean connery. Where it's the entrapment. Or what does it. Catherine zeta does the little the little famous. She's in all black lasers equally remember species speaking of things along those lines Scary statistic. i've been talking about now for a while. Men's styles from levels have been dropping. You talk about like with forty years. From now we're all going to be infertile that there's that right How how bad for tilles getting so. Here's to put in perspective. I actually took up a screen shot of this. And i got. Oh here we go so here. We go ready. This is crazy now. The an average twenty two year old male today. The average twenty two year old today has got the testosterone levels of a sixty seven year old in two thousand of my show in the year. Two thousand bro 67-year-old in the year two thousand testosterone level of of the of the average twenty two year old male today. You can't tell me this is crazy. This average to saas thrown has fallen close to fifty percent in the last two decades. What yeah there is this worldwide. There's this yes. Okay yes worldwide. I told you one mo one of the most random and interesting things. I've found with like being doing what we're doing now. Right being out on social media. That's when i started talking about my testosterone use in my whole experience and the hormone therapy and everything. That is the number one thing that i get. I would not have guessed that. I would you just because when i got involved with using steroids back when i was in my early twenties it was very taboo and not a lot of people talk about it and you just didn't hear a lot of people even talking about testosterone levels and that is an it's an it's young guys it is. It's guys under the age of thirty that are reach to wanting to hear my opinion on what they should do. Whatever is causing this in the in most. The theories are pointing to chemicals in the environment. Just exposure to these chemicals that affect our hormones. Yeah you know. It's not just low testosterone in men. It's also how babies are developing in the womb. It's how just australian is a very important hormone for male development. It's what makes us men literally in the womb. The the the baby is essentially the same whether it's female or male then. The injection of testosterone is what makes the fetus turned into a male. And that's of course triggered by chromosomes or whatever but you know so. It's not just young men. They're having this and then again. Low testosterone causes all kinds of problems. The issues low confidence you lose your intelligence could actually decline cancerous go up. It's really wild. Two decades holy shit man super alarm. This is crazy and it's a it's actually a very big deal when you to figure out what the hell is going on and so there's something that we have in our. This chemicals are are causing certain things and they're finding a lot of these chemicals in like babies breast milk and do you really think it's that thing. It's just a combination of a whole bunch of stuff. What do you mean. I think there's a single chemical. I don't think it's just chemicals is what i'm saying. I think it's i think there's more like cultural stuff happening. I think there's a lot of things that are probably cultural stuff. Start happening because of the low decline. I think it's mostly. I think it's mostly to see that much of a decline in in one. Not even one generation twenty years right. That is a strong environmental push. There's something coming from the environment. That's really effect. So i would love to see a study of like you know 'cause there's definitely people that Even a decade ago that are raising kids. Like very Hippy right all wholefood all know zeno estrogens like everything is like. They're very careful of all that it would be interesting to find a community of people that have been consistent with that since kids birth and see were their hormone levels are and compare them. I'd love to see whatever formula. Everything chemicals everything i don't care i take. I'd like to see that too. But here's the problem. They find these chemicals in the urine and blood of people who don't even use loves products. It's so prevalent in everything ranging everything else like it just Yeah just it makes its way in the environment everywhere. But i would think though if that's the only place you're getting and then you do a good job of avoiding. At least some would see some. It'd be less. Yeah damaged because it isn't that the in the water because you brought up the other day and things like that that has to be on the lower end right as far as offenders or is the highest i so the ones that they're highlighting are these plastics Like epa was one of them right. These plastics that are plastics everywhere and plastics revolutionized our lives yes but a lot of these these chemicals they find some of these plastics. They think are the big manifests. The conundrum right. I mean you look at like surgery. You look at like plastic for everything in terms of like medical advancements has been crucial for all that but now you know the unintended consequences. Now those actually give us chemicals that this isn't this is an existential threat. If you think about it right if if you see if this continues on this path we could. This could literally be the biggest problem. That mankind has ever encountered. If we become infertile. What are we gonna do. we're just clone. Like how are we gonna have kids. Start calling each other. Because i don't know where you go from there. This is all great science fiction movies. They give deals. I've listened to this real life. It's happening as we're talking about studies so check. This out is pretty cool. So here's how protective muscle. Mass is in the body so this study was talking about how protective it was for heart disease men with a lot of muscle mass and high body fat so guys who have a lot of fat but also a lot of muscle decreased the risk of heart disease by twenty six percent so just having because of muscle because of the muscle just having more muscle even with high body fat now. The men who were leaned with more muscle decrease their risk by sixty percent. But still just goes to show. How protective muscle is For your high was having a conversation. My brother of the weekend is finally got to see him and seasoning place and He had he had one of the Vaccines in had a really crazy reaction to it. The second shot. He had a crazy reaction to what happened. we'll basically he got all the symptoms of covid like like he might as well just got it but Yeah it was like for three or four days. It was just like out and But his wife was was fine. Nothing like dean even feel anything And the thing about it is like my brother. And i are like polar opposites. He's the place board to me like. He was actually like really talented at sports. But like he'd never really got into the working outside of it and like just avoided lifting weights like nothing like like he'll do some hikes and things but he's never really like built muscle and so i'm wondering if that has a factor in all this you know having that sort of like extra barrier of protection against you know these foreign sure. Yeah like i think that was bringing that up with him because he's never even like been interested. I haven't pushed it on. Him actually was getting your book for him because he'd be like the perfect guy to understand he needs to know why it's it's so essential that you lift weights and it's good because it's coming from someone else. I can imagine he probably doesn't wanna listen to a thing you say because you're his visa older brother so he's got all the answers. I was always coming him for all the well. Speaking of talented athletes. And not wanting to listen to anything you have to say. Did you guys see my instagram. Which the my instagram posts about the The my god. What's the name of tonal when i did. Oh the one point. Six billion is overvalued. No i didn't say override. I said is it. Overrated underrated properly rated was so i literally put just trying to get a feel for it. Yeah so i literally wrote. I did a picture that is on their website. I think of their their product. And i put Tonal receives one point six billion dollar valuation Overrated underrated properly rated and just wanted to get a feel of my audience and boy. Did i piss off my buddy. Oh saw that my buddy buddy brennan got on there and and now i didn't actually know this and obviously he's invested in it right so so hearing me rag on it and talk about how i think it's overrated Is just totally. i mean. He took it took offense. Oh man you went back. He went so hard on me about it that because i comparing it to instagram. Which i thought was silly. He's a instagram. At one. point wasn't making any money and now look you know what the problem is. And we've seen. How many times have we seen this atom Where people come in to the fitness space and they don't know fitness and so they view it like i don't know like tech company and they say oh it's got technology got this many users we've seen other tech companies grow from there. It doesn't work like an app. No it doesn't it doesn't work. That way that's the bottleneck the bottlenecks people have to work out and keeping people working out consistently and a lot of them. You can figure that out you solve the puzzle right. Yeah that that was my. I mean in that. His argument was that. Because i i haven't actually seen all their financials and know the quote unquote stickiness of the product I have. I have no leg to stand on to even put my opinion and i was like well. Okay dude i. I don't know all those things. But i think my experience in the space for as long as i've been doing this i have some sort of like to stand on this and to your point. That's exactly right is that fitness is a different monster. A lot of the all not all of the tech companies that have gone public and made billions of dollars. Yeah the stickiness. they're addictive. I mean they suck people in and people use them day in day out for hours forever. Fitnesses never been that way. Nothing has been invented. Nothing has ever came out in the history of us working out that has been so sticky that you become addicted to a comparison biden dies. Yes the the the most the most effective modality or whatever. You wanna call it. That's gotten people to stay. The most consistent is personal training. Nothing comes close to personal training and even personal training. Yeah isn't even the same universities like social media like people use instagram on their toilet all the time they're looking at whatever people it just this is the problem. This is what we're trying to solve right. Get people to well. That's art and stay consistent. That's the other thing. The other point that i brought up was that you know anything. That is a band aid right for this. Like or as treating the symptom and is not the cure and is not revolutionary. It is not going to stick around and blow up in the be these were billions and billions of dollars and a lot of these businesses. In the. I know i was really going hard on. Because he's also a you know a big investor in orange theory and it's i said you know i hate to tell you this man but these these aren't they aren't the answer man. Orange theory is not the answer for everybody. I'm sorry are there some people that enjoy it and have success with it sure. I'm not denying that but it's not really solving the problem when we talk about obesity and the things that we talk about on this show. That type of training is not the answer. We saw it with curves thought with cross fit orange theory in this is a cycle in someone will come out with a new way to work out. That's fun. gets people hyped motivated. Which doesn't last and it goes like. The part of why part of why theory did so. And i remember i remember seeing going. This is brilliant integrated tack into the group x type of training model very very well. They took a piece from the cross community thing. And some of the exercises and the trading and the competitiveness they blended new good tack and it was clean. It was very seamless and they created this incredible environment. That a lot of hype energy and motivation for people. But that what we know. That's all fleeting like eventually people get tired of that eventually. Achey joints come happen and eventually what ends up happening. Is they fall off. And then the newness wears off and then we're on to the next trend. That's crazy because i mean even fit bit like i had high hopes for fitbit because they'd like centered around community which was like one of the first tech companies. Really understand that it's about bringing your friends in bringing your family and like other people. It's like a support system But even that like the newness of it. The excitement of it just totally just fit bit. My fitness pal body-bag The nike the nike one. They are not tech companies. Cool stop looking at them. Like they're apple or google or whatever their fitness companies that use tack. And so you have to treat it that way. Yeah it's not going to be like ten fitness isn't good. I it's just never gonna work. You have to like somehow the unicorns going to be both of those together. But i don't know what the okay my. Here's my opinion in my opinion. If you want the masses to consistently exercise at has to be a cultural phenomenon there is no product that will ever do it. And what's my evidence. You look at cultures where you know like you go to like in certain parts of asia were people wake up in the morning and the exercise. It's part of their culture. In fact some companies do this in japan before they start work they do calisthenics or after dinner. It's cultural that everybody goes for a walk or cities are designed ways to where it's less convenient drive and more convenient walk. That's the only time you see people exercising. It has to be a part of the culture. There is what the products are going to do. Is they're just going to trade that same twenty percent back and forth now. What we're trying to do is we're trying to work with the deeper part and this what we're trying to do with the podcast and what we learned through personal training but still. We're not going to solve this massive hill. It's a massive hill. It's very very challenging. If it's not part of the culture it's going to be a very difficult thing. I'm by the way i'm all. I'm rooting for these things. Because here's the thing even just treats the symptoms if it if it brings new people into searching for the cure. I'm all for you know. So i'm not like i wanted to make that clear that this is not me. I'm not coming out bashing tonal. I'm not bashing or syria. I'm just telling everybody who's listening in eight. The fucking cure. This isn't the answer to you. Like term fitness and health is not. It's a cool thing that got a lot of hype. Energy around brilliant marketing. Great timing right. Now that everybody's hyped about. But i'll tell you right now. You know fast forward ten years and tell me if it's still around crush they won't your is within you. You know what i mean. That's the truth. I i'm gonna circle back roads leggy because i know i'm going to get dm's of people saying what products should i avoid. I'm talking about the testosterone thing that i brought up with the chemical the plastic and i was dm's and i always forget to give people like takeaways. So here's a here's a good takeaway. Don't store things in plastic containers and don't drink out of plastic water bottles that those have been shown to leak plastic not only that but to leak chemicals but also in the manufacturing process of making plastic bottles. There's microscopic plastic pieces in pretty much every single bottle. If you have a plastic and you start your car and you wash it or whatever hot cold it little by little starts to leave these chemicals so you want to use law metal or glass mirror. As a company we worked with past. They make really good Containers and they're they last and they don't leach chemicals. It's a good place to start a company like to because every time you make a purchase. They're also giving back insert they're doing so you talk about a cool company to invest in if and also take care of your health this clause brought to you by organic fide. For those days you fall short on getting your ganic veggies or whole food nutrition. Organic five fills the gap with laboratory. Tested certified organic superfoods to help give your health and performance the eds try organic totally risk-free for sixty days by going to organic dot com. That's o r g. I f i dot com and use a coupon code mine pomp for twenty percent off at checkout at a first question is from andrew can one. How do you bulk without gaining extra fat tissue when the fat cells already exist in your body all right so i'm going to reword this question how do you bulk gain muscle without gaining any extra body fat union virtually. Yeah it was a couple of things here. Okay number one. It doesn't take that many extra calories to build muscle you're not going to gain muscle anything faster than a couple of pounds a month. Maybe faster if you're a new person you got crazy genetics or whatever but even at three pounds a month which would be amazing if you gain three pounds of muscle and a month phenomenal if you did the math. On how many calories to produce that. It's not much at all. It's like an extra fifty calories a day so on the one hand you wanna bulk in a way where you're eating minimal extra calories to build muscle by the way you also want to have a very strong muscle building signal along with that. You have a good workout program. That's telling your body to build muscle but here's the other side of that. Because i know people listening doesn't work for me. I got way more calories to build any muscle at all. Well the reason behind that is because eating. Extra calories also sends a muscle building signal. Believe it or not if you bumped your calories by five hundred calories above maintenance or even a thousand above maintenance. There's an anabolic part to it right. It does send a muscle-building signal so this is where we get into this kind of gray area now. I know you said adam. For example that it's impossible ever if the signal is strong enough the body will build muscle. And all i have to do is point to Studies where are given injections of dos. So they're given steroids and their body. Weight oftentimes doesn't change but they lose fat and build muscle at the same time now. Of course they have a very loud hormonal signal. But that's just highlights that the signal is the most important thing if you really telling your body to build muscle effectively. You're getting good sleep. Obviously you're eating healthy and you're following a workout. That's the most important part. You're following a workout. That is appropriately. Intense has the appropriate on a volume is utilizing the best exercises. You're seeing strength gains if that is sending a very very good muscle-building signal doesn't take that many more calories To build a really. I think you kind of have to be a black belt to do this. And and it's really anemic free. Well it's less to an even if you are a genetic freak it's still The the the mental discipline that you have to have because you have to understand that you could very well be building muscle at the at the perfect rate and not see the scale move whatsoever and it's so if you're somebody that's trying to build and you know you're eating you or you think you're eating extra calories and you don't see the scale going up it really messes with your head. It really makes you. Don't wanna ramp it up. Yeah or you might even see like the skill down to your point. You could lose body fat. I mean if you eat more calories you speed up the metabolism you build some more muscle which speeds up the metabolism. And so. there's a chance that you could add it a pound of muscle but then also maybe lost pound and a half a fat along here two or three week journey and then go. Oh my god. I'm definitely not doing this right. I'm losing weight right but in reality you could actually be just in person so the hardest part about this is the mental discipline to just stay the course to believe that okay. I've figured this out. I've got enough calories. I know i'm eating well. I've fallen a good program. I'm training consistently i. I'm seeing strength. Go up and just staying. The course. there's no way around it like it's going to if if you were to try to really like nail this downs going to take a really long time and spread out and in really managing your calories at a level that You know barely noticeably in a surplus like you just you just have to very much be meticulous about it. I just don't know that a lot of people have no this. I sucked at this for years right. Because i was the you know the skinny kid that wanted to gain weight in so the scale was so important to me if the sale up on i'm crushing and i'm doing a good job but the reality is that doesn't always tell you everything so there's a few tips that i'll give you that i think can help a lot and this is just based on my own experience number one. Are you getting stronger. Okay so if your strength is going up you're definitely not losing muscle or it's very unlikely that you're losing muscle and you're probably gaining muscle or at least going in that direction. So are you getting stronger. Number two also use either body fat tests or circumference measurements. Now for me when i gained body fat. It's typically around my waist so fi measure my waist. i can tell if. I'm getting leaner or gaining body fat. If the scale goes up and my waste doesn't go up its muscle or if the scale goes up my waist goes down holy cow. I'm doing the grayson. And why. I don't like that one is because of like you know inflammation in the water retention and a lot of things you can't take one measurement you gotta do kind of the body fat one and you know if if you follow me since the beginning. This is actually how. I built my instagram. So when i when. I came out and i measured my body. Fat percentage and it was at twenty percent body fat which that time of my life had never been that high before i was two hundred and twelve pounds and when i when i showed the journey i actually my goal was to stay at twelve and where so when i came all the way down to seven percent. I was twelve still And the goal was to show people that i didn't need to have this huge swing one way or the other. I need to add on twenty pounds of muscle to then lose thirty pounds. Total body fat. It was like i'm gonna hover right around this to twelve now. Mind you week to week you know. I had some to fourteen two to eleven but the goal was kind of the my home base to twelve right and the way i looked at it was if i ever went if i started to creep up. I would kind of back off calories a little bit. If i started really dip i would increase a little bit but i was really trying to stay because i knew i had plenty of body fat to trim off. I knew that. I was consistent with training. Which i wasn't before that i was sending a signal to build muscle if i could keep my calories at a place that my body was kind of hovering around that weight i was training correctly and consistently and i was eating good that i'm probably having a nice little shane. Yeah and then. Here's the other part of it too and this took me a long time to understand. Is that building. Muscle is a slow ask process. So if you're bulking oh hell. I gained ten pounds this month. It's probably not all mussels. Mostly not muscle you just. Nobody builds muscle that fast unless it's muscle memory so unless you were super buff before you stop working out. Lost a lot of muscle and start working. Or you're like the one in a million or a billion but muscle building is a slow process. So if you're inching up on the scale ever so slowly were every couple months you go up a couple pounds or a pound and it sticks and you're getting stronger and you noticing in the mirror that you see more definition. You're probably gaining muscle but boy. Does it take a ridiculous amount of patients. Because i know what you're talking about your journey that you did adam where you did that weight transfer. That was after years of you working out. No way i'm doing your body. I would have never been able to do that as a kid. Because i was so impatient. Oh yeah no. I didn't have the discipline as a kid. I'm glad you You you brought that up though. I was gonna say you just built. No no no. No talking about the Muscle memory yes. So i get tagged on the law so this is a good time to bring this point up. We get tagged a lot on people that show like these crazy transformations and people want me to point out how fake it has to be being truthful. They're not always that some of them are fake people shop. A lot of people do that but for me to come in and accuse somebody and say just because they showed this ridiculous transformation and sixty to ninety days. It is fake. That's know if you've been training for as long as we have. I can i can whip my. I can really make a huge difference because of how much muscle i've built over the years. If i let myself really go for like six months and fall out of shape i can shred body fat and build muscle really quick and show a major change in sixty to ninety days. So those don't always mean that they're fake. It might mean that. Somebody's been training for a really long time. They know their body. They know their shit. They know what they need to do. Calorie wise. They probably were inconsistent. Heightened all got tighten it up and tighten it up and they actually make a massive solar surgery years ago. I remember if you've ever had a cast on and you take off. It's always frightening off. I remember mike arm. Yeah it was like nothing my shoulder was non existent and i don't remember how it was like a couple of months when i was finally able to work out and i measure mom. I lost two inches or two and a half inches or more in terms of muscle. And it didn't look like my and he came back so fast. It was really weeks where it was right back to where it was before so muscle. Memories of real. Next question is from jackie eighteen. Is there evidence to suggest that eating more meals. More frequently throughout the day is better for weight loss than two meals with the same amount of quality calories. There's okay so here's the deal with this. Now now we've been told for a long time In in popular fitness culture that eating small meals was superior right. So if you eat this this was the story at least with the narrative if you eat small meals at stoke your metabolism throughout the day it feeds your muscles amino acids throughout the day Therefore it's better for burning fat building muscle so you need to eat small meals throughout the day okay. Is there evidence to support this. Hardly any two zero. The the reality is the thing you should pay attention to the thing that should dictate whether or not you eat. Small meals or you. We s- fewer and larger meals should be based on how you feel no preference. That's the most important thing now. The reason why this started was because bodybuilders sweetened shit tons of calories even five thousand calories a day. You're not gonna do that in two meals. You're gonna eat five meals. It just makes more sense. And then supplement companies got their hands on this and said oh what a great way to sell meal replacement bars and powders because if i sell the average person that they need he five meals a day they're gonna eat breakfast lunch and dinner or maybe lunch difficult to prep all those ahead of time in in so you get other companies. You know the suspect that kind of stuff. Yeah but i mean that's that's something that's been crammed in like everybody's head in terms of like that's the healthiest way to approach it. But honestly it makes a lot more sense for a bodybuilders. Trying to get more calories in because big huge meals You know that's pretty difficult to digest. This myth originally came from the whole thermographic effect from the which is the same right. So if you eat a four thousand cal to meals a total up to four thousand two thousand two thousand calories you get this massive thermo effect which is the same as if you take those four thousand calories and you spread it over four six meal right right. So they're just smaller affects the net. Thermic effect is the is the same so it doesn't really matter where i see a lot of value in this and where i would have clients do this. All the time was actually just to teach them portion. Control it you know you do a two massive meals and it's really hard to kind of get an idea of like what six ounces this is. What twelve ounce of that is is. How many calories is this really. Where if i had if i had clients and say okay there. Your total calories is twenty eight hundred e and i divided up over five or six meals. They see these little small portions and an idea of like where their meal what they're meal-sized kind of look like and you just kind of teach good behaviors that wet that i liked it for that or to your point you bring up with the bodybuilders is yeah when i was eating five thousand calories get good luck eating that in two meals especially if you're eating whole foods it's not happening so for those reasons make sense the end of the day. It's whatever your most consistent with no so if you do better with prepping five or six meals and you liked it. Just kinda graze all day with small meals. Because here's the thing that i also like about that too. You never get really really hungry. And what i have found when clients get really hungry the cravings set in. And you're more likely to make bad choices. I mean i don't know about you guys. But when i have a long day here and you know i go like a. You know unintentionally intermittent fasting. It's twelve hours. I mean boy. Everything sounds good. I'm driving home from work. And and i'm easily influenced you know katrina. Call me where we wanna do for dinner. And i'm like i haven't day. I'll have whatever you want to have verses. If i had already had three or four meals. They were balanced and everything like that I'm not starving like oh we'll wait and then i'll have another one of my meals. So that's another reason why i liked the small meals and that's that's more the mental disorder and again i've had clients that do far better with fewer meals actually helps them eat less calories and they're busy and when they're working. It's not that big of a deal. I've had clients like what adam saying. Were they prefer to eat every few hours and have a meal personal preference one hundred percent should dictate this for you. How do you in for me. For example giving example eating small meals throughout the day doesn't work with my gut. It just doesn't work well with my good health. I do far better. Having long breaks in between meals reduces inflammation in my gut gestion and just feel better doing it that way but i know people who are the opposite. I know people who are like man. I can't eat one big meal. It hurts my stomach. I'm doing better with smaller meals personal preference should dictate this. There is no real significant advantage one way or the other except for the extremes like obviously you don't wanna eat like once every other day or you don't ten times in a day but within reason doesn't make a big difference really just follow your what works best for you. What makes you feel. the best. Next question is from. Jayde taylor turner. What's your opinion on. F forty five training. Here we go now. They're they're kind of like Orange theory where they they do a lot of the circuits and they go from exercise is i wanted somebody that because like i know or siri. Obviously i've ever done one of their workouts. But i've never seen a f forty five very similar so you know most about it less tack more lifting weights. Okay so you know orange theory. Has they do three rotations. You have a rowing running and then wait section and then they rotate throughout the hour and every every time you do a workout. It's a little bit different. But for the most part it's one one third one third F forty five is primarily like more boot camp style. Like you go get your weight's you guys remember how Body pump was so you have a little station yourself. And you have the little mini barbell weights or dumbbells and an instructor. That's teaching like this weight training class. So it's a little more focused on weight training then orange theory traditional resistance training. Where you rask. It's still very circuit. Yeah it's still very circulate. they're not you know. And that's unfortunate because you know it wouldn't be a bad model but they know for reasons to keep people entertaining going is to is to keep the. Could you imagine a group x or a group instructor like this standing in front of and making it right. Okay we're going to rest for two minutes and we do for ten minutes. Yeah and just everyone's standing good stories or like yeah anecdotes yes sir. I mean. I remember when i was teaching orange theory. I would yell this right. I was stop a class like a turn. The music class and i'd yell at everybody in the rest. Stop if you are able to go around around with no rest. Go heavier ugo. Heavy enough. And i want to look over here and see people sitting down. Remember having to yell at people. Tell me i wanna see resting. I remember you saying too. I thought this was brilliant. When you'd have those rest periods where you'd actually educate them like you pick a topic you say something about nutrition that You know you can kind of use that time to educate instead of wasting in looking around english. Yeah the weakness with f forty five is the same weakness you see with lots of group classes with weights. Number one it's not resistance training it's cardio with weights you do cardio with anything and this is a cardio with weights type of class number two. It's class and it's very difficult to taylor workouts. When you're dealing with with that group Type environment now. Is it smart. Business and marketing. We fun it's exciting. It's probably exploding. It's probably gonna you know at some point. Hit a peak in the tank. Like other fitness trends and fads do but as far as a workout is concerned. You get some some stamina and you'll get some cardiovascular work done but if you're looking for the benefits that resistance training provides where you're building muscle speeding up your metabolism making your body more resilient in that particular sense Then you're doing the wrong thing. Traditionally have mark wahlberg. Don't they yeah. Well yeah and save your dm's k. Because i know we're going to get dmz people that work there and like oh this dot. They're going to say. I mean that's every time we talk about my town like we know offend anybody that works there. Listen it's it's cool dude but it's not ideal just group training will never be ideal for people. There's there's such an individual variants for every single person that if you have a classroom of twelve fifteen people and the and here's the thing group training for for for muscle for building muscle and burning fat not ideal. Could you do yoga or like a rhyming class like we're everybody. It's a little bit different like the goals are different. And so you can get away more with that but something. That's as specific as or conditioning on a sports team or something. Well there's just so many more variables that that dictate whether you're going to lose fat or build muscle if there. If one person that class their diet is dialed in this this way. A modality of training. They haven't train this way in a long time. This their body might respond perfect for this class. But then that maybe that person who's right next to them doing the same thing is in is in too much of a cork deficit or over consuming. That it doesn't even really matter or not resting whatsoever. And and doing lightweight much resistance and how your body moves matter so much. And i'll even argue against what you're saying Yes you do. Class and yoga will is it. Far superior have an instructor do yoga with just you. Yeah absolutely so. It's the same weakness you see with all classes but as far as resistance. Training is concerned. You get like this much of the benefit of resistance strength. Mostly cardio Next question is from austin owens actual which training style do you prefer percentage based or p. e. based if not either of these. What do you recommend. I laugh at these questions. If people get so hung up on those they do and it's not that. I mean i understand if you're competitive athlete. That's it that's if you're powerlifter this makes total sense. And it's the only time. I don't laugh at this but I built a competitive physique. The one percent of the one percent at the professional level without ever paying attention. I never once i like feel. it's always feel format. It's always feel because i have a client. Come in and you know. Maybe today we're supposed to do eighty percent of whatever and i ask them. Hey how do you feel. I'm watching them as a trainer. Looks like they're little out of it or whatever we're going to go easier you have to train your body in for that moment how you feel physically and also mentally by the way you can feel great physically feel poor mentally and that will have a massive effects on your performance and how your body recovers and responds so really. It should be based off of how you feel the problem with that. Is that a lot of people. Want objective measures. Tell me number. Whatever nine heart rate variability was promised to do that. The problem with heart rate variability was. It's kind of a pain in the ass. You gotta be real good at measuring the technology to do it now. What it did not always accurate either not always accurate but it was better than nothing. It was probably the most objective way that we saw And then not that long ago. We had a franco on the show. And i thought i lost. I love what he was absolutely brilliant all show which of course it came from someone like somebody who we respect in the industry one of the best trainers and coaches. That's been doing this for a really long time. Of course he came up with a a a simpler very effective very effective. So i'm going to show everybody so you're watching this on youtube. You can see. I have a. I don't know how to say this. A dime adine nominee dino my anyway you essentially you squeeze this and it measures your grip strength. And so here's what he said. And i thought this was absolutely brilliant so these devices the very typically inexpensive we have on our site so you can buy these on our side if you want to. You essentially what you do before your workout. It first off. You want to set up a kind of a control right so every day before you work out. You wanna calibrate. You want to squeeze this as hard as you can with both hands and write down the whatever number you got and then also at the in your workout. Mark down how you felt. How strong were you digest. La energy after about a week or two. You'll start to see some correlations o on the at great workouts. My number was this on the days. Was whatever my numbers were this. Then you can start to use the number that you get on your grip or test or whatever as a way to dictate for those who don't want objective numbers how hard you work out. See squeeze it and say. Oh wow it's readiness gauge. It's testing your cns which is great. So so you kind kinda know what you're working with for that day and like how hard you should push or you know it's just it's it's it's a more of a way to actually find real metric out there to kind of identify How you're feeling but it's still feel based. Yes that's the reason. Why i mean our good buddy kramer person. He built an app around this. It was the flaw that we saw in this was like you can't have a computer. Mathematically figured this out for you perpetual progress doesn't exist no and and and it can't figure out what happened last night. I mean last night could have been. You got some crazy news. That was devastating with your family. Then you stayed up all night. You got terrible sleep and then here you are showing up to your workout and that that you can't mathematically figure that out and your computers already told you what you're supposed to do that day. Were me as a coach. If i was training you i would ask you. How is your night night. I just found out my. My grandmother passed away. And i didn't sleep very much. Me as an experienced coach knows right away. I might have had a plan today. That i was to. I was going to push you to this or is gonna push you this percentage but now i'm calling an audible because i know how what happened last night. This is the problem to back to our earlier. Conversation about tech products. Like this. what they don't understand like there's a lot more to it than than ones and zeros. you can't just. It doesn't work out in a perfect formula and laid out like there's so many variables and you have to have like individual coaching to make it work right and this is why i like and again. It's not perfect. You got to base it off of how you feel and how you perceive yourself to feel so it's important because people tend to second guess themselves. Do i really feel good. I really feel bad. Whatever you feel you feel in. That's kind of your truth right. That's the truth of how your body's going to perform essentially but the reason why. I like the dahmer meter dynamo meter. I think iraq is because it measures in real time. You're cns and how great you're squeezing literally right before you work out you crush it with your hand and you see what your score was and then use that in combination with how you feel like i feel kinda crappy let me check you squeeze it. You see your number like oh yeah definitely having these you're working and that's the the the trick hair to is not like in because i want to caution 'cause you're gonna get people to buy this and be like sell my number of this. What i do you need to do. The work just like i would coach somebody with nutrition. Got to see what your number you need to track. Yeah you need to track for a while to find out what a high number and a low numbers what are you. What are you squeeze. What what is the peak. You like if you tracked. And i like to see two weeks personally. I like to see two weeks of every single morning at the same time. Same everything you squeeze this thing right and you find out over those two weeks okay. Where's my high. And where's my low and then that's your range and so then going forward when you go to squeeze this before you go to work out and you see it. Oh wow i'm on the peak this. I'm going to get after today or a while. I'm towards the bottom. Or i'm in the middle so you adjust your based off like that. Absolutely it's perfect Look if you like mine pumps content you gotta head over to mind. Pump free dot com. We've got tons of guides and written information books all free mind. Pump free dot com. You can also find all of us on instagram. you can find just mine. Pump justin me and my palm sal and adamant mine pump. You for listening to my goal is to build shaped your body dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance checkout or discounted. Rgb super bundle at mine. Pump media dot com. The rg dc per bundle includes mapped on bali mass performance and maps aesthetic nine months of expert exercise program designed by sow adam and justin to systematically transformed the way your body looks feels and performs with detailed blueprints and over two hundred videos. The rgb super bundle is like having foul annum justin as your own personal trainers but at a fraction of the price. The rgb super bundle has a full thirty day. Money back guarantee you can get now plus other valuable free resources at mine. Pump media dot com. If you enjoy this show please share the love by leaving us a five star rating review on night tunes and by introducing mind pump to your friends and family. Thank you for your support and until next time. This is mind bomb.

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Episode 332: The Donner Party Part II - The Forlorn Hope

Last Podcast on the Left

1:45:19 hr | 2 years ago

Episode 332: The Donner Party Part II - The Forlorn Hope

"No place to escape Tunis who's the lost on the left. Glade cannibalism started. Man, oh man, hungry, you are? No, what it comes down to. It's like, 'cause with the Donner party. Right? Three people. Right? And then they said, like, you know, starvation begins Kerr technically seven, eight nine days after you have eaten. Sure. That's when starvation starts to happen, your muscles skin dissolved, but like I'm hungry now. Right? And like forty five minutes ago. And if there was anything near me, honestly, I would just. So you're saying that you would just aggressively people if you were part of the Donner party with no concept of the fact that you actually look like a Harry Turkey reactive, strike. Make it you like they will just see you stuffed with an apple in your mouth because looking at building a fire, why is all this hearing hypnotic -ly at my this? The last podcast on the left I am Ben Kissel with markets. You say Ben Kissel. Okay. Become Irish. I converted last night. I had just the right amount of Jameson officially Irish. All right. And of course we have had Zabriskie. This story is still haunting me. I feel like a lot of people who are talking about this episode. I mean, like, you know, we do Ciro killers aliens and ghosts, and obviously we'd like to cover many things McLeod on the show. And I think that when we dip in a history, people sometimes forget like when you look back at it again, like upon reading indifferent stars above, it's just nothing but screaming. Yeah, it is the most brutal story we've come across besides the what's at the, the cement bound girl. Remember that Japanese story with the girl that was toward you. The Japanese cheerleader murderer or something like that. Yeah, girl girls unit, seven thirty. One also said that reminded me you saying Japanese reminded me of that as well. That was also pretty horrific history, history episode. But this what we're about to cover now is this is among the most harrowing tales in American history, and there are quite a few harrowing tales in American history. This is gonna get nasty folks, so we are onto it. It's the Donner party part to the bloody conclusion. Well, actually not so bloody because their bodies were completely frozen time. You got to the time. They got to the bodies. They were completely refers the frozen, bloody conclusion. Very good. Thank you. But Alford Packer was another famous cannibal which we kind of talking about like kind of cannibalism in the frontier times. It was actually nothing was common, but happened quite a bit and happened like, Weiss. That's points too many I'm going to say documented. And how many times did it happen? Five to six. Right though. That's a lot of time. Better. It's one time too many times. Okay. Alfred Packer was, we're gonna go to the herald Schecter wrote a whole book about Elford Packer, but it's very difficult to pin down the details of what exactly went down because there was just all we have is Alfred Packer story, but that's a really good thing to look into. If you want to look into like how fast could take one due to kill five other guys, the eat them, and then live off them for two and a half months little fucking snowstorm. All right. So when we last left the Donner party, they had failed to diverse what came to be known as Donner pass on their way through the Sierra Nevada's to their planned destination of California on the day of November. Third eighteen forty six. The advanced team had been met by a snowstorm on the mountain above Truckee lake. They camped out for the night, but when they awoke, they were all buried in snow, Yikes, the winter sleep. And apparently one of the lead dudes because like a grown man because at this point, I mean, it's been hot out there for a pioneer. All right. They're out there. They get stuck on. Okay, we're gonna make a big push. There were. Tired. They're like, okay, we're just going to sleep for the night because they were carrying the babies. And we've got so cold. All of the women, all the men were carrying all the children, which is half the camp right there. Wait trying to get them that they couldn't do it. So they went to sleep. And then the first one to wake up, woke up screaming, thinking that he was the only one left on the mountain because snow had covered everyone and they all just woke up like. Like if you've ever woken up in a yard after drinking all night. Well, I think if you wake up screaming these call that a frontier, rooster. Truckee lake also sounds like a place that you would go with your friends during your gingko phase smoke. Really bad swag hanging out at Truckee lake. We're talking about hubbub if we just made a band, that was all base. So the team decided it was best to head back down and the snowstorm that begun the day before extended itself for a further eight days before we truly get started on the tales of cannibalism. And I say, tales, implore all. It's important to know just how terrible the winter of eighteen forty six and eighteen forty seven actually. What's besides all the other hardships that donor party encountered? They were caught in the middle of one of the coldest winters ever recorded, not just in the Sierra Nevada's, but in the entire western hemisphere there in the middle of the thing called LA Nina, which is Spanish for. Remember that idea. Remember that the great Chris Farley sketch, I would say this could've done without that if you're on, if you're in this camp, just like really snowstorm, you have to laugh what you have to look at your first. This like Clark Griswold. My mandatory Clark will reference where he just starts freaking you just have to start laughing. Give me my boss tied with the boat and then it cuts Clark Griswold chopping off. Beverly DeAngelis, beautiful wrestle fucking spoke. Don't do that. As it's written about in the indifferent stars above, which again comes at the highest recommendation. It's so fucking good. It's so fucking good here. Some of the other tragedies that occurred that same winter and Nebraska, six hundred Mormons died of exposure, hypothermia or starvation. In a series of harsh blizzard sees in Ireland, the cold, that winter was one of the main factors that led to the great Irish potato. Hato famine which killed over a million people in. That's just the deaths in Oregon. The Columbia River froze solid in think of the fish. Think of. Became fish sticks crazy. And you know, the potato famine, all they had was potato that interesting it is. We learned this one episode. I forget what it was like five years. Explain to me with the data fan. I've been telling puff and a lot of history Lord, puffing support, deaf ear, toll the sound as far as what the Donners experienced, they endured no less than ten blizzards in the five months that they were either just outside or actually in the Sierra Nevada mountains, walking or living in snowfall that went up to twenty feet deep in some places. They didn't listen to anybody take a bit advice. This is what happens when you don't. If you're gonna pull people ask them what to do. You fucking shit happens. We'll how. Yeah. I mean, who how many people in the Donner party? Could you say you deserve this? It's entirely your fault and how many people were just following orders. The guy whose fault it really was. He'd already left. You took off. Axis while he had been banished James Rica. So yeah, James read and he had made it through the Sierra Nevada's. He made it through to the other side, but out of the other people, they were just kind of going along with it. We're going to follow with this guy. James Reed says, he seems to know what he's talking about. Also, I'm sick of every person that I look at. So let's please just partways as soon as we possibly can. So James Reid was the only person fighting in that war in Texas. Just thrilled to be there or in California, just thrilled to be there because he's at least not dying. Well, he was doing his duty and when you further read into it, you find out that he went to war because he had to do it in exchange for land and California is yet assigned. Basically, he had a volunteer for the war and then also got land as payment afterwards. And so he went just kind of figured at this point all they'll be fine because figured I was fine. Oh, they'll they will have gotten through with this point. Then. They were fucked. Yeah. Yeah. And he also figured I'm I'm going to need when my family does get through, I'm going to need to secure future for them. I'm gonna need care land and all that type of stuff. His family is still there. Yeah. His entire family is still on the other side of the lake. So when the advance party returned to Truckee lake, the search for shelter began now the Breen's who were the largest family. They were about the only ones to get somewhat lucky in that respect as they happened upon an abandoned cabin. All right. Others were able to build their own cabins like the foster Eddie pike families who squeezed sixteen people into a structure. They built into the site of a large rock near Truckee lake where three quarters of the party shelter. So what did they do? Did they chop down the trees and all that kind of winter? This is it. You don't go to an Anton Klickovic clearly shows up. They had to build all the shape. So the the Breen family guests, they found. A cabin, but I'm gonna use a quotation marks cabin and say that that was also built by somebody else that was stranded in a snowstorm. And so it was kind of half made. They still had a remake a whole roof by first killing half their oxen and skin them, and then putting pine bows over the top it to keep whatever he gets in this other thing they just built. These are. These are big Iraq. I don't know why he didn't like that, but I will say this flexible seal. It works. The different time. Well, three quarters of the party they were at Truckee lake. The other quarter of them made their camp about five miles away at Alder creek. That was where the Donner party stayed in as if just having their name, cursed for no real reason for generations to come wasn't bad enough. The Donner suffered, perhaps more than any other family really more these guys scream themselves to death. More than like the shit's family and the crapper. They live all lifestyle of until it money and and fuck money. Because thinking about it, wintertime, you legally say the word, fuck the fuck family gets two cents, really know that things went wrong, almost immediately for the Donners. One of their wagons tipped over and was damaged in the course of repair George Donner cut his hand which gotten -ffected and George would have to deal with the useless gangrene ass- limb for the entirety of his time in the wilderness Lord. Dude, it was like, so he cut his hand like first thing. And so I, I'm good. It's good. Well, were you guys is good and they're like, okay, sure. Okay, dad. And he went out to get firewood and he can't use the hands. Right? So they're like, no, we'll help us like, I'm fine, a strong man. Meanwhile, the affections calling up his arm and it keeps the, it's just so fucking size. So him one arm cover. Glick Holden lumber and crook of it. Adding to the while his helpless families just staring at him. See, that's the interesting thing of masculinity. It can be not good. I think he's using this. It's not. It's like when Henry was talking about how his father didn't believe in brushing teeth and that is that I haven't white my ass in thirty years of such a man with what these guys were all. There were. No, your arm is falling. And that is why the majority of people who died in the darn party where men. Oh, okay. Yeah. And George Donner Donner family. It wasn't just georgiana, earn his kids. It was George Donner his kids and George Donner's brother, Jacob and his family. But Jakup was they said, what did they say that he was not necessarily week? He was frail, okay, us frail, he was sickly. He was a reader. He was on the train school men like ole like these like, so were sleeping on these pioneered -als like, yes, this is the softest thing for miles. I like need a memory foam tongue to try to get my mandatory seven -solutely to make matters worse for the Donners. They tried building a cabin, but the snow fell so hard and fast that they were forced to abandon the construction and set up what they thought were three temporary canvas tent structures, but they would stay in those tents for the duration of I can feel it. I used to get frostbite all the time as a kid because I was like, I don't need a jacket three degrees in Wisconsin frostbite. I could just feel the pain that these people were having, which with you, Wisconsin people. I don't know anything with our friend. Adam Wirtz shorts. Yes, I, it's a point of pride. Okay. Can we have something. Others were no better off in the Donners. A lot of them blieved in lean-to's or in the cases of the single men, they were pretty much just exposed to the elements. Jeez, the single men got the raw deal of all really do. They were just left out there because they were the hired help. These are the guys they hired a help them, and so they would have to be which I still don't really understand how the hiring structure still holds in this scenario with. They were still technically working for the Donners and helping them put up the tents and put up all the cab and then they're like, okay, thanks, bye. Bye. And then they have to go to their quote unquote home, which was just laying in the dirt twenty yards from where the cabin one. Yeah. How are they getting paid every other Friday. I mean, how were they working when they just know we're going to start sleeping in the house? Well, Bill just wasn't enough room, and there was also some propriety because the house was filled with children. Okay, so, but that's those are easy to kill with Iraq. Say that all the time, and I feel like this with scenario you'd kind of be like, what if I just kill you and your whole family? And I have the cabin, which is where again, why I'm not a part of a wagon train. Well, not only was everyone living in these terrible structures, but food was scarce from the very beginning since most of the oxen and cattle had been run off killed or just plain died. There were only a few left for the duration of the winter and the livestock they did have. We're also starving. So the meat had barely any nutritional value. And even then once they butchered everything, the meat they had was going to run out in just a few weeks to understand the desperation. Here you got understand how many children were involved in this entire scenario. Okay. At the eighty, one people left in the Donner party of full half of them were children and most of the people on the expedition parents. So there was definitely a primal instinct at work there. Right? I'll tell you what man have you ever been on a Disney cruise though, or one of these, like carnival cruises or they allow kids know we're stuck on there with like, fuck and half kids, and you're on the ocean. For like two weeks. Yeah, man, I tell you what those kids go overboard. Real easy. I'm sure. Screaming and shit, we're Florida classy. So we haven't been in a lot of business cruise. And even though kids were used as a labor source, much more in those days to the point where laws had to be passed to limit the workday of kids, eight hundred to less than ten hours a day. It happened about five years before the Donner party. I mean, even though all that was happening, parents who didn't turn their kids over to the factories, they didn't love them or wanna protect them any less than parents do in modern times. A laugh. But yes, I mean, before you cared about them because they were great workers and it can fit their hands. Little gears needed less shoes, and you can put you can dress up and just wrap like weird little sack, throw him in there. And the best part is that the make more kids you get to do your favorite thing in the world, which is. Yeah. And then make your own little workforce with a lot of the farmers debt. That's right. And and it's, it kinda worked both ways because some of them had so many kids because the child mortality rate was so ridiculously high. But in some cases of just, for example, like the Breen's every kid they had survived. So they had like they were show regretting. Which one of you is gonna dot with, like the nine kids. The lived through the daughter party catastrophe, and then they died. Two weeks later get run over by fuck and wagon. How many times gets. This does not sound very fun. I'm just gonna say that say that, no. So as the resources of the camp, dwindled, a man named Franklin graves took charge and began leading escape missions. No, the first one failed to even get through the pass as did the one after that the weeks crawl by with no relief from the weather and most of the single men had already been reduced to eating mice and strips of buffalo hide from their rogues isn't as sound familiar ladies. What? What all the single men out there man, good for my with low hot. I know it is ladies kick him to the curb. He was wrong. That's all they had to eat all the good for men get a job. That's what I say. Get it out for what's happening out there. Mice doesn't seem that bad. Speak your buddy beef jer. It's not beef jerky first of all, it's not necessarily as what it's bad about. Eating mice is that my it was all they had to eat. You're talking. I mean, how much meat is on a mouse. That's what's one of those age-old questions. How much. Remember pudgy. Good. Yeah, budget was great. He was chubby. Yeah, but I mean, but those are just and that's and there's like what I think there was something like six or seven. The single guys? Yeah, they're eating mice and it's not, and it's absolutely not beef jerky that they're eating. They're eating rugs. They're eating. They're clo. And they have to oil them down until they become this jelly that you can consume this gray just flavourless stuff. You scrape at the bottom of the pot and you just put in your mouth and also these are full grown men. These are hardened of veterans out all this shit and it's like they are fighting over mice, not lazy, they would see one and go run off like it's Wendy when I throw a fucking toy. And this is like a full grown frontier, man. And there's something about that. That's very frightening to me is a bunch of full grown men with axes, fighting over tiny animals. It's gotta be weird being like, Henry come over here, tickle you guys take a look at my dump and then you're like looking at it, he's going to members only logo because they had to either members only. It's probably doesn't taste very good. They're just rayon now the none of that's leather anymore. Right? Yeah. And that the buffalo hide stuff that they were eating. Normally they would use that as glue. Oh, my God. All right. So not not good Yance against. Yeah. Okay. And no point is anything going to be good here? It's only gonna get all that. Keep getting worse until the end. They don't set up a six flags or anything like that. There's no, there's no fun turn around this become a resort. Is it safe as this is the highpoint Hyde morning? We're at the high point right now if you don't Caddyshack when they're about to lose the golf course, imagine it's that the entire time. All right now, mentally prepared, and you mentioned six flags, and that was something I kept thinking about when I was researching this, how boring was this? I mean, you got, I mean there's nothing to do your constantly starving. There's no activities you're not going to be gabbing with the people like it's just survive. But that's the thing. It's not even like just survival because there's nothing to survive on it. Sound like you're foraging, or you know who these guys needed Ryan styles. Enjoyment out of anything. They're doing party quirks. Whose line is that anyway? Shut up. Fuck up. What's more. The extreme cold meant that everyone's bodies had to work harder to stay warm, which burned more calories, which meant the people's bodies unwittingly started to cannibalize themselves before they started cannibalizing anyone else. Finally, in mid December, about six weeks in Franklin, graves couldn't stand look at the faces of his family any longer, and decided he would lead a team through the mountains at any cost. This guy was a fucking bat was I like Franklin graves a lot because he was like, fuck this, like my family's not dine out here like this. So the first thing he did was like, we need God damn snowshoes turning into and like just got his family workers. Everybody get up right in this. We're making snow shoes, and then kids would go on to make shoes from then on which I think was an important way to start. As long as the kids weren't the snow shoes? No, I'm fine with why did it take him so long to be like, I've had enough of this. What was why? Why not just do that initially because they couldn't figure out how to do it like they couldn't figure out how we're going to get through all the snow because it was damn near gone through this. Yeah, they thought might be done. They also thought like maybe we'll figure out of this. Maybe a rescue team will come, I see, but then it became apparent that nothing was going to happen. Also its first powder, snow, which is very difficult to move through. So they couldn't really figure that out and also another weird thing. And this is that technically they're supposed to follow a certain type of order in their own minds they have against. We talked about, it's the sense of propriety, George Donner was technically in charge, and he was kind of out for the count on the other side of the camp like they were forgot. Like how far away for the five miles laws, they were five miles away. So technically they had no leader. And so there was supposed to have somebody who kind of coalesce everything and Donner was gone, just dying in a tent. So Franklin, graves, fuck it. I'll believe we're gonna do it like this in the party that Franklin graves lead would be known to history as the four, Lauren hope. Not a good sign. As a matter of fact, there's no issues. No BNB there now called the four lower. Never stay in place called the forlorn hope. No, we're actually where they are right now is now Truckee Nevada, right, right. North of Reno. Okay. Very beautiful. Beautiful country said there. So graves and sixteen others, ten men, five women and two children set out through the pass on their homemade snow shoes. And there was no coming back from this one. They would either succeed or they would die, but they did have guides Charles Stanton had already been through the mountains three times before and they still had the me walk guides Luis and Salvador. They had only a small amount of beef, no extra clothes and no tents, but they thought this would be enough because the trip was only supposed to last six day snow. That's it. That's easy. Man. I do six days all the time, six days only part of the week. Sure. Small amount of beef is also going to be the name of my comedy better. The four, Lauren hope ended up stranded in the mountains for a month and a half my God not good. So where are we on the Fook scale right from like I forgot to DVR wheel last night. Oh my God. There are spiders. Michael Austa me back. I would say they're at about a six and a half right now. Yeah, about a six and a half. Circling back. Discovered there's a tube. This is the story of the forlorn hope again, bad omens, Mark their departure the day before they left Bela's Williams. The servant of the read family had quote, unquote, lost his mind and died after being ill for weeks, having completely given up any hope of survival. Okay. A Williams was the first of many to be buried, six feet deep in the snow because the ground was already too deep to even reach shoe, frozen to detour deep. Yeah, the Dino is twenty feet deep, she's and pretty soon the Donner party wouldn't have the energy to even do that with their dead. So the four, Lauren, hope new, their journey would be difficult, but they didn't really know how horrible it was going to be until they actually got out into the deep wilderness. The snow shoes worked, but the act of sinking down your foot and having a pull it back up again with every step was exhaust. Sting yet right now you're thinking, oh, that's not a big deal. Like, oh, I walk through snow, do all this kind of bullshit, but it's number one you're on a mountain. Yeah, known to it is fucking to the death. This walk us to the death. You are starving and you were bored. The only thing you have to concentrate on is the movement of your feet, which is gonna make you kind of go insane. No. So realize that grabbed him how fucking difficult? Absolutely. Yeah. This sounds almost impossible. Yeah. I mean to put it in perspective, just think about how big a pain in the acid is to just walk like two or three blocks in a heavy snow storm. Yeah, then multiply that by thousand then mountain. The fact that you haven't had a real meal in months use, and that was just the walking was also the snow blindness as Brown lays it out snow blindness occurs when Oltra violet be raised, reflect off the snow in damage the person's corn. And the higher the allegation is the worse. It is. It makes you nauseous. It gives you a splitting headache and eventually it blinds you. And if the exposure is long enough, the blindness can be permanent and the Donner party didn't have the slightest idea how to fight it could of done without that. Yes. Indeed, no happen was that they didn't have sunglasses, didn't make this look good. Why? Normally this is not a thing to think about. They didn't know what it was. Yeah, they're just walking all of a sudden they're going fucking blind. Then I'll tell you what, and if you think that's hard. Try running a podcast network. I can really difficult everyday. Yeah, man. They should have gotten one of those military grade sunglasses that you can run over with the truck. Got an eighteen forty six. They should just ran. I mean, just put it into their Amazon wish. Yes, definitely. All be watching the same infomercials the same level of drunk that you do four AM and then they would have been fine yet Bill. It's good reminder that we're not living in the worst times. No, we absolutely are not. We're all flush with tactical flashlights, but it's difficult as the snow shoes were. They were essential and the first part of the journey as the only two without him. Turn back in the first day, bring the party down to fifteen, but they hadn't made it three days before they would lose another member. But this time the loss would have grave consequences for both the forlorn hope and the people back at Truckee lake. Okay. See, even though Luis and Salvador had crossed the pass before they'd never taken the path that they were now walking on. And that was paired with the fact that the two barely spoke English. Why don't they go on the treaded path ever because they can't see the wagon trail? Yeah, because it's covered in snow. I soon normally the wag. Gins have ground path into the rock, but they can't see it now. And so they're just walking around in their hands and they're fucking half blind right. The forlorn hopes main guide was Charles Stanton, but Stanton's fatal flaw was that he was only five foot five. I'm the trigger. It is put in their little legs. The outline that did he has little legs, much more difficult time fell out of this. First of all, I was planning on reading it this way yet meant through beauty legs and good Tempur until. You couldn't buy AMD with eat. We don't know you go back to the book all Stanton was very handsome, strong. Very, the reason why he died. I was because he'd already been up and down the mountain pass three time. Oh, please. Short man. Good. See, that's why. He was also more susceptible to snow-blindness than many of the others. He's so close to the. What a God damn. And this was only the third day and that time they'd only made it fourteen miles and they had fifty more miles to go. Stanton started falling behind catching up to the group at night. Then on the fifth day as all the other stood to leave the camp Carroll. Stanton, sat down with this pipe and told him eat catchup later guys. You guys get down into the hill of Iraq behind you hate before. Before you go, Mary, sue. Mary. Yeah, yeah. Can you just tell me how seven ends the movie set a movie seven. The it's the, it's Brad. Pitt's. Wife's head is in the box wrath. Can't you up to you so strange, what the movie seven is. No just needed knows when play give me of and got around seeing the so many. There's so much content for like two hundred years. So yeah, Hello, my name is Henry browse ski for twenty three and me twenty three and me is a really cool DNA testing service that can offer insights into your ancestry health wellness and traits. My twenty three and me taught me a little bunch of stuff about my genetics that I never knew before. Do you know that I'm genetically disposed to be short, so I'm not a mistake and also I'm two percent Japanese. You're welcome. 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There's also the saturated fat and weight report which tells you based on your genetics, how your weight might be affected by saturated fats in your diet. The report even offers tips on which foods to watch out for if you're trying to eat less saturated, fat. I don't know for a fact that Twenty-three and meet does not make clones with our spit, but if they do your sucker Henry clone building ships for the breakaway civilization for the rich, the original Henry is doing great on top of the world order your twenty three and me health and ancestry service kid at twenty three and me dot com slash left. That's the number. It's twenty three and me dot com. Slash Elliott t. Carol. Stanton never caught up. His body was found five months later and a hollow stump nearby because remember. He was small enough to fit new home. Oh. Everyone. He had a sense of humor. Okay. Running ever climb out of the stuff. Maybe he couldn't climb out. That was the problem. Okay. So remember these people they were not intense at all right. They were sleeping outside every night in temperatures that ran from the low twenties to the high teens with mound winds, making it even colder. And it was snowing almost constantly with only a few breaks and win the sun finally came out during the day, given them just a little bit of warmth it melted the snow, which made it even harder to walk through. So they're walking through a slushy. Yeah, base sometimes. I mean, it was either I can feel tiny bit of warmth on my skin and have to go through a health log or I can be freezing cold and able to walk on the hard crust of frozen snow, right right now since Stanton died, the party had no choice, but to follow Luis and Salvador. Oh, man. Poor Luis and Salvador. This movie was made in nineteen seventy eight. It would be played by teaching Chong. Love them and they were not. They were not happy. No. In this scenario, they were absolutely not happy to be stuck with these people. Now these guys, they did know the land a little better, but for the most part, they were just as lost as the rest had Charleston survive. Just a few more days he may have prevented the party from making a mistake that would cost most of them their lives. Again, again, see the party had got through the six mile valley and come upon a ridge if they would've climbed it, they would have found a road that went down to bear valley, which would have relatively easily lead them to the near settlement, Johnson's ranch. If they would have done that, the journey would have taken him nine days at most just a couple more than they estimated which would brought the rescue parties to the camp at Truckee lake a lot faster, which would have prevented all sorts of tragedy. It was right over the rich, all they had to do was PICO for the rich, and they would have seen where there was all my God and do we know of Charles Stanton. He was the one who smoked a pipe. Do we know if he was baking cookies in in the stump? Do we know if STAN became the first Keebler. This hour roasting. Off, but instead of climbing the ridge, the four, Lauren hope turn south, oh, your path and went downhill. They then descended into a three thousand foot deep canyon, having no idea where they were going or what they were doing. Hodel nightmare did we're moving towards the level of fucked. Two of I've left my keys outside. I left my keys inside and I just got out of the shower. I walked out the door thinking there was an intruder. Now I'm locked outside, and I'm Newt. How the beef they brought was almost gone in the real hunger was about to begin the food ran out on December twenty second and December twenty. Third and Irishman named Patrick. Dolan had a suggestion high. You've got to have an idea. Looking at your feet, and I've been wondering what it'd be like verba cume as too blunt for you. Got it ever. We. Patrick Dolan thought that the best idea was to draw lots to see who would die so that others may live. Now, this may strike us as premature because they'd only gone a few hours without food at this point. Could to plan. But you gotta remember these people were not only fighting for their lives, but the lives of their families. Plus it's not like these people were eating stakes three times a day right there. Food was nothing more than small pieces of lean salted beef with less nutritional value than a strip of old trapper. Level tripper. The best. So a piece of paper was torn into strips, and the men took turns drawing for their doom, oh, in the unlucky soul, who drew the long one was the man who had suggested they do it in the first place, Patrick Dolan. So Roenick. Green on your winning. Is the most Irish thing I've ever heard. Expand look. But when it came time to do the deed, the group discovered that none of them had it in them for cold blooded murder yet. Oh, but as William Etty who had by the way, we many key suggested a dual instead of drawing lots really any. Any a lot of very attentive. Nuts. Great hero of the story, but he's talking crazy what if we do a snowball fight and the person covered in the most amount of snow is the one who gets eaten, okay, you know what? I'm thinking tickle each other until the first one piece there. I know it's. Pissing her pants. We kill that guy. But William at a he was the one that pointed out. He's like, you know what? We don't have to kill anybody. One of us is gonna die sooner or later, right? And the odds would definitely for sooner first of all, they knew from Charles Stanton's description of the terrain ahead. They knew they'd made a wrong turn somewhere, but they had no idea when they don't it or where they done it. You probably want the five foot five guy being the scout. Hey, we jump onto a tree tire used to. We're used to things being harder to. We are braver. In addition to that, none of them had enough energy to even leave the campaign made the day before the first to go was a young Mexican herdsmen named Antonio last name on known. No one noticed he'd even died and tell us hand fell in the fire, and he made no attempt whatsoever to pull it back out again. Wow, yeah. And after Tonio died, the tragedy just kept coming in the midst of a storm. One of the men was chopping wood, but when he brought the handle bat for chop the head full Lou off and was lost forever in the snow. Now they had no way to chop wood. What don't want. So looking for any source of heat, the settlers. I think this was actually like Franklin graves suggestion because Franklin graves the grownup in Vermont. So he actually knew a little bit about survived in the snow, the settlers formed attent using themselves as post and they used what few blankets they brought as a roof, and they use the only source of heat they had each other. The next person Di was the last one you'd expect to go Franklin graves SU. He was among the heartiest men in the entire Donner party much less the forlorn hope, but he to succumb to the cold as he lay dying. He told his daughters who are two of the five women in the group that they should eat him, lest they die. The same death is him. Another important thing know about these people's mindset is that they thought all these guys were dying from hunger. They were actually most likely dying of hypothermia. But these people had no fucking clue what hypothermia was right. They felt like they were dying hunger where it was going. They filled like they were dying of hunger, and so they didn't really understand why people die anyway. But hypothermia is a bitch. Yeah, for sure. And that's why these people couldn't understand behavior, Patrick Dolan exhibited before he died. See a lot of people who reach the later stages of hypothermia exhibited behavior called paradoxical undressing see hypothermia begins the blood vessels constrict. So more heat is fun to the body's core, but when the person reaches the final stage, the opposite happens, the vessels open backup and the victim is suddenly overheated, and so they do what any of us would do were to warm and they take off their clothes naked out there, man. Yeah, interest in. Interestingly, what I find really interesting in modern times, this is why so many urban cases of fatal hypothermia are actually. Mistaken for sexual assaults and paradoxical undressing is exactly what Patrick Dolan did on Christmas day. Eighteen forty six. I don't wanna sit naked Irishman on any. Kitchen Hughes's like dancing, Jing out nece in. They're all like, once this guy's right, and I'm sure he was not the first naked man on Christmas day. Sure of that. So after stripping don't try crawling out of the mix shift tent into the snowstorm. They'd been raging all day, tried holding them back, but he made it out and this is another son of hypothermia. It's a syndrome called hide and die or terminal burrowing. It's thought to be a primordial instinct to run for protection and roughly half of all hypothermia victims do it. So the group manage to get Dolan back in the blanket circle. But by that afternoon, he was dead in the hunger was getting worse, though livers begun to break down and their bodies started producing acetone, making their breath, smell like nail polish, then more of them started losing it a thirteen year old boy named lem. You'll Murphy manage to capture a mouse while he was trying to find dry wood, and he just popped it in his mouth and ate it alive. And he found it's because of this point, they're all kind of like trying to keep their cool. Intents, you got untold Neo chilling like a bud lime in the snow next to they're just trying to like, we're going to get through all of the right. He goes, eats food, the promise this, but thirty six hours into starvation. The hunger pains begin to leave because the your body starts to readjust like it makes it. So basically hunger pains come from the glucose levels in your brain reach a certain point where they're like, okay, you gotta eat, you got to, we're gonna make it really difficult for you to not eat your whatever the fuck comes across. But then after a while your body readjust and makes the hunger pains go. So at this point they're actually feeling not good, but they're feeling better than they were because the body stern eat their muscles in their fat, which is kind of why we can live for like three weeks with no food. Eat, it kicks the system back in. So you'll Murphy. He hates the smoke in this mouse, and then it makes him go fucking Kuku, Bennane interest. Will you hear those stories with holocaust survivors and when they were being they were fed a bunch of food and then they would die from eating that happened to one of the Donners over. Really? Yeah. Okay. Not good. So after can I just say it's not good. The. Right. You're right. So after the lem, you'll Murphy eight the mouse. He started attacking everyone else biting on their arms and just yelling one thing over and over and over again. If me my. Give me my boat. Give me my. Yeah. What did he turn into a shaggy dog. He died at two AM and his body was rolled out of the circle into the snow. There were now three bodies laying in the forlorn hopes camp. That's when the cannibalism started. Cannibalism star. And that when the cannibalism started. I did what you wanted me. I know it is. I did the thing. Yeah, I remember these. Awesome. So the morning after Murphy's death, it was decided that was no other choice. So that began butchering the three bodies that lay frozen in their camp. Okay. So they did have to choose, so they had to organize who's gonna get who? Okay, because no one wanted to eat a member of their own family. She's I, they removed the heads hands and feet of the cadavers, which is common among cannibals as it helps to dehumanize the meat. They seem pretty good at it. Like right off the bat. Well, it's almost like a again, like a primordial type of urge because you're looking at it and you're thinking like, I can't eat a person. So I've got to make this look less like a person. It's why I don't like going to pigro where the pig is actually on a spit because it's horrified makes you feel weird. No, not me, man. It's the opposite. I seeing the face. What a real. That's a non hypocrites way of. I actually will agree. I am hypocrite. I'm gonna come to that. Then open the torso and brought out the liver heart, and kidneys knows that's an of course like that's the most likely thing to do because that's the most nutritious meat by this point because their muscles are all gone, right? Three of the survivors were either the sibling or spouse of each of the deceased. So the party divided into three groups. So no one would accidents eat the flesh of their kin. They found some dry firewood and the meat was roasted on sharpened stakes. What they said too, is that again, there hunger painted sort of left for a while. This was like, there were doing this wrote butchering in it felt like butchering an animal. So it was a little bit more go, okay, we can do. This was fine, but it was slow going. But they said when the smell of the cooking meat hit their noses, the became ravenous with hunger, just smells like fucking. Beef sweet, delicious, pork, beautiful pork me. Yeah, interest in the only ones who didn't partake in the meat were Luis and Salvador because they looked at this whole thing like this is an abomination of the highest order, right, right. So the forlorn hope sat in the snow and ate all of them avoiding icon, ttacked and weeping what they had to do to survive. Now, it is true that they would probably survived a couple more weeks without the human flesh before they starve to death. But before we judge, it is almost assured they would not have had the energy to continue. They just would have sat around that fire trying to find dry firewood until they just starved to death while this is a small exaggeration, but not that much of an exaggeration when I was three hundred and eighty pounds. I did sit in the Ponderosa booth after my fifth plate and did begin to cry. Yeah, it's one of those moments I realized I couldn't time shoes. That's another moment I had to leave the apposite. This is the complete opposite of the Dahmer part. 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AST after the butchering they got a little bit of luck. The snow stopped and the temperature dropped, meaning the snow is easier to walk on. So they cut long strips of flesh from the deceased and dried over a fire for the further journey in the end only four days worth. Of meat could be harvested from the starved bodies and still they were weeks left to go, jeez, that it's kind of what they have brought up the book. That was interesting the way he said it. We Brown said it. It was almost a little suspicious. It was like if you really look at the stats of Franklin grabs, you'd expect a yield of sixty six pounds. No, I I remember that passage and I remember thinking like I really respect this guy for doing the math. Really, he called somebody up. He asked him what? What? How much meat it would yield I respect. Yeah. So maybe they weren't very good at getting the meat off the bone? No. Okay. Think of it this way like compare it to the Uruguay in rugby team that crashed in the Andes in the seventies alive and all those guys were all athletes. They were rugby team, right? So there was quite a bit a very good meat left on those guys, so they were able to get some toys cuts not to be too indelicate, but they were able to get some pretty choice cuts of meat from these guys, the Donner party by the time they had by the time they had started to butcher, Franklin graves and such. And the other two, there was very little meat left on their bones. So you think that organized sports would have really helped. Yeah, actually, yeah. A little bit more muscle and it's also the proper, the proper diets. They've been walking for two thousand miles. They had Gump bodies. Muscles walking for a long time and they've not been eating a lot of fat. So without fat in the meat, you can't properly process the nutrients to meet very, very dry. After the meat ran out. The only thing they had left to eat where they're shooting, so they roasted their shoes and then moved on totally barefoot. And what's more a lot of barely had any clothes on their back at all. Because the closed started a rot from all the wetness, and they were walking through these tree branches constantly and the branches because the clothes were rotted. They just ripped more and more and more top. I mean, they were half-naked walking through the Sierra Nevada's in the teens. That's crazy. A few days after eating their shoes. The hunger once again became too much. That's when the first mention of outright murder came William foster was the one who suggested that the group kill and eat Luis and Salvador. Let's kill those. Just had that inner like plotting of people pulling each other decide being like seem over there. Right? Magic a minute. Taco. Being movie. But imagine monacell it. These are the only these are the guides right that we're helping them out the whole time. Well, they, yeah, they were. But I mean, this is another thing about survival scenarios is that you always go first for the ones. You know, the least strangers? Yeah, loosen Salvador, total strangers. So it's like, yeah, fucking let's teeth those guys. We don't know any that we don't know those guys, so let's kill them and eat them so we can live so our families can live. Now we don't know if the two guides overheard everyone talked about this or if one of the due to his against again, willy William Eddie, he may have told them about it. But by the next night, loosened Salvador gotten a fuck out of there. Just left at anytime. I am wondering why they're were still there at all. I mean, some sort of like, you know, human feeling for these people. Yeah, he still how fucked they were. And so they are helping them and they knew how to live off the land they, they've been in these mountains before they kind of understood a little bit of what was happening. I'm certain that it was still fuck for them. Understand you can live a little bit longer without eating and he watched. They watched them all eat their families like a weekend like, oh shit, these guys are serious. I really think that the writing was on the wall when people go off in like you see people like mining, like putting a stick and an roasting over a flame people looking to recipe books. Whenever it is, and I'm certainly read the room. Yeah, let's get the fuck. Absolutely time to skip town and they survived. Yeah. No, no, no, no. Pope in my voice. That's all gone. That's all gone gay. Don't have any hope at all. Get rid of the group is called up for Lauren hope. Diner. Yeah, maybe not a great name for a group. Then there was some luck. The group had traveled below the snow line. So there was no, at least the possibility of deer. So they all split off in a groups, William Eddy Marianne graves, they finally found a dear to see William any with Antlers on his head be like, they'll think Ahmadou down. Down onus in Mary of grade, you put the Hitler's on there. I'm gonna go out there. I'm spread up my asshole. I'm like, I'm super super horny for deer. I go wit with give me give me. Eddie barely able to hold the gun, much less fire. It brought up his Flint lock in by some miracle was able to hit the deer. He and Marianne followed the trail of blood until the deer collapsed. And when they came upon the dying animal, Eddie slid throat and they both fell to their knees too greedily drink the blood that gushed from the wounds. This is good. It's like a Rosa, but deer blood. Full Richard chase in this situation, but the I will eventually pay probably several thousands of dollars in my in my lifetime. Later on to do this. Abuse in surviving the game. You know, do we can do this? We can just go back to the ranch and we can do. I've seen this done many, not drinking the blood Henry wants to do. We can do that for you. We're not doing what are you talking about? We can do it experienced things differently than you to various things deeper. Yeah, significantly than you to hang up. I wanna feel the rush of life from that animal into my body. It's not a work. Yeah, sure. We just we kill a deer. We hang upside down, slit the throat like we normally do, but instead of having flow into the blood bucket, you just have a phone on you like a. Give me the phone. The thing was that was just Marianne graves and William Eddie still all the rest of them still out there in the wilderness all looking for their own dear. That night as j foster and his wife. Sarah search for deer j the man who played fiddle for everyone back in Nebraska slipped out of consciousness and died will Sarah graves had now lost both her father Franklin and her new husband to the forlorn hope journey when she ran into the fosters on the way back and told them what happened. They didn't wait a second before, asking thick at eat them, they Joeli right in so we can. We can have them, then she, she's just like, yeah. Yeah, maybe me like a second. I just wanna look at his dick. I wanna see was big enough for me to eat it in a bun. Yeah, they were all about it. They were Oster. Oh, the fosters were all about it. Okay. Like she just looked at him like, yeah, you can't hurt him. Now, go ahead. So the fosters butchered, the body on the spot for convenience of combines and brought the torso legs and arms back to the camp on their backs. And even though William Marianne had brought venison back to the camp fosters still impaled, Jay faucets heart on a stake. Roasted it and ate it up now I don't wanna be crass your, but did they tie arms like a little backpack all know. They butchered at meaning. They cut off the arms. They cut off the legs and put him into like little pallets, put him on their back, so so he could carry the torso and she could carry the limbs. Then they said it was the same. It's the smell that did it said they said the overcoming smell. All of the meat cooking righted there like, all right. So they'd already eaten what was left of that deer. And then Sarah graves had sit separate while they didn't just then double down eight her fuck and husband, right in front of her where maybe she turned away or whatever. But it was just like it's because they stuck a hard on a stick like it's marshmallow insert cooking, eaten it all them's going like a lot love ended up, right? I mean, I know there's really no respectful way to what. No, there is a respectful way. Human body. I guess it seems a little bit. I mean rude. The way that they did. They weren't all sitting around laughing thing and campfire stories. They were staying feeling they were doing. Don't know. Like, okay, we still very, very grim icy. Okay. The party was now down to seven, five women and two men they kept going. And finally, they reached the bottom of the canyon, but that had come at a price since they'd all eat in their shoes. Everyone's feet were cut up by sharp rocks and were swollen from the snow. They were only twenty miles from their destination, but the worst was still to come. Now we're moving into the spiders have gotten down the tube. They are their insight if they discovered that they can lay eggs and all right. Again, foster suggested murder. He had his eye on Amanda mccutchen. But again, Eddie objected saying she's a fucking mother. So foster said, fine. Let's kill the grape sister kill foster. Let's kill the grave sisters. They don't got any kids and actually now shit Sarid you have a husband anymore. So what does it matter? Let's just kill them. At what point did foster say like, you know what? I'm actually really enjoying them. Seems way too into this. He is. I feel like it's a strange thing that comes over the group where the human meat is easier and so the human because it's right there and they say there's something that changes with anthropology pop anthropology or are throw poverty whenever panther apology, where there's a one the lines crossed, right? It's the you start dreaming about eating human as people like when you're that level of hung, you're dreaming about it. And also there's a thing that happens your brain when it trembles from your my friend Kissel we hang out and we drink beer and will smoke weed, and we have fun. We right on point together right to Kissel. You're at least a hundred and fifty pounds of meat that I can consume where I'm looking at you and I'm actively made hungry by your body. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, this is this is really getting scared from here. A little guy like you could handle. UB Brian Marcus would be too stringy. Henry, you're actually I'm probably Henry and I are probably the best taste too stringy markets. Oh, you think so who's got the biggest tightest button this room? Oh, I vote Marcus. Messed up as far as how foster was thinking. There was another thing that Brown talked about an indifferent stars was how humans turn feral. And this happens a lot in, you know, places where food is very scarce like in like the siege of Leningrad people started eating children. I, they started eating anything. It's like it's one of those things where you know you watch a post apocalyptic movie and you wonder, it's like, wow, I how all those people Farrell like, how do they actually get to that point, there's actual science behind that. People act like that. Once you take everything away from group of humans, society and any sort of societal norms completely break down and we turn into the most dangerous animals on the planet. All right. But after foster suggested that they eat the grave sisters fucking Eddie stepped in again. Okay. Drew a knife and said that he would kill foster if he didn't fuck and drop it nice. That's one verse. The story, the other versions, even worse. The other version says that foster even went so far as to lure Marianne away from the camp. So he could kill her before foster stop them. Here. Debra. Said. It's me. Everybody loves me. Ramana. Oh, come over here, married. Not gonna eat you with my. Do out here considering how weak everyone was. It was probably more likely that foster just suggested it and Eddie like weekly pulled out a knife is a moth can stab, you say anything else? Okay, right. So everyone is very weak. Everyone's very, yeah, but eventually foster would get his murder. Although the victims would not be in their immediate group couple of days after the murder threat, the party by chance ran into Luis and Salvador. They were doing the if it was teaching Chong behaving at they have since found a pine cone that they're smoking. Having a great time with bigoted like women that they think are big tinted women, but it's just clods of dirt. Stories various to how it all went down. Some say the party came upon Luis and Salvador lane by a stream too weak to move near death. That said that since they were near death foster took out his Flint lock and shot both of them in the head. All right. The others say that Luis and Salvador who were me walks by the way. I mean, these guys, they knew the land and even if they didn't hope land, they sure as hell knew how to survive on it. So it's possible. They're doing just fine and we're killed as healthy men either way, foster murdered them. And that night they all dined on their organs. Oh goodness. Ironically, though it was actually a native American tribe who saved the forlorn. Hope. Of course, of course it was. Alfred Packer yet they folk and killed Louis solved, or they immediately butchered them up and they were. They were cooking them and eating immediately, and then they wandered into the camp of the minute, tribe with the fucking their bodies of the me walks. Who were there like allies, backpacks while they're being taken care of. Two days after they killed Nate Luis and Salvador, they just wandered into the camp. It seems like they never did they ever have to eat people? Yes. Okay. They did. Because this point it seems like they're always like two days away from. They did. They needed some sustenance if they were going to survive. Because remember there in the extreme cold are calories are getting burned very quickly. And also, I mean these people, the amount of physical energy that they're exerting, like it's not hiking. They're climbing mountains, right? Like they're climbing up straight, cliff faces. They're going down there walking through craggy rocks like this is not a third. It's not point eight a. point. B. it's point. Eight point cedar, point light, it's there is no straight line here. These people are doing horrific work. You know what I'm going to say. They could use a chocolate mint, cliff bar really, really tasty. I don't live in adventurous lifestyle when they got to the camp. They were in such bad shape that the children freaked out and cried when they saw them. That's not good showed up because the way they would describe their way they spent their nights were just like they would sleep and you just you're. Like like screaming from hunger until when they showed up. They were fucking desert beasts. Yeah, like Bob from dawn of the dead. Zombies did a hunger for human flesh. Yeah, they were like, I mean, and you got there all gaunt. They look like walking bloody skeleton. Wow. And so the tribe brought them in fed him, paste of acorns, and they all slept him warmth for the first time in months with the flesh to me walks still stored in their packs. Probably didn't tell the tribe that they had just eaten to me walks. I would hope province. Hi. Me a probably would have been a bad idea to tell him. So you wanna keep the human chest in your backpack close to your chance. That's a secret, but it wasn't over yet the next day they set off towards Johnson's ranch, Johnson ranch. I mean, that's where they were going in. The first place. Johnson's ranch was the first settlement once you got out of the Sierra Nevada's. And as soon as they set out just fucking torrential downpour could've done without that. They were shoeless in bleeding and in some cases pretty much naked, they stopped every hundred yards of soda arrest, but after two miles six of them just couldn't go on. I mean these people, it had been a six week long seventy mile journey through the mountains in the middle of winter, their bodies just gave out they have to be. I mean, they must phrase right with all the water. The only one to make it to the cabin at Johnson's ranch was William Etty. Yeah, he's got it again. They really did. You mentioned unit seven, thirty seven. What is it? Seven thirty one. You seven thirty one. And there was that scene where they froze the woman's arm and smashed with a hammer and felt very similar to that woman. I'm sure they were not comfortable. So William Eddie after being laid down in a bed, he told him that six others were near death down the road. Eddie's greatest source of pain was the other salvation because the ranchers followed William Eddie's bloody footprints back to the rest of them. Wow. Yet to he's like, was just leaking up. Ooh, out of the seventeenth originally set out from the Donner camp a month and a half before seven made it, they're alive, but now that people knew dozens were trapped without food over the mountains. The rescue operations began, you'll right, but guess what? Man, this was six days. This whole thing was supposed to take six days the gone for a month and a half who's those mother fuckers were just sitting there and had no clue what was happening. And they also had no clue what they were going to see when they arrived at this fucking camp. Right. Because back at Truckee like the horror was just beginning. Today's other sponsor for last podcast on the left is the Honey chrome browser. If you're anything like me when you shop online, your turn into a tab order. I always seem to pull up a million tabs or for promo code try to get the best deal. But more often than not all I get is the spinning wheel of death. Before you crash your browser. Again, try Honey. Honey is the free browser. Add on over nine million people including me are using every day to save money. When they shop online and two clicks. You can add Honey to any pressure for free. Then just shop like normally do Honey scans and tests millions of coupons in the background and checkout automatically apply the best coupon me over nine million people use Honey every day, save millions of dollars on everything from everyday home products to hotels and airfare. Honey recently saved me a ton of time and money by getting the studio, a great promo code on some new headphones. Now, there's no reason not to add Honey to your browser. Today. It's free takes just two clicks in Saul and it'll save you money, get Honey for free at joint Honey dot com. Slash l. AST that's two words join Honey dot com slash l. a. s. t. to start saving with Honey today, that's join Honey dot com. Slash l. s. t.. In the time took for the four, Lauren hope to reach Johnson's ranch. People had begun dying back at the original camp. The single men who only had mice strips of buffalo hide for sustenance, all dead, except for one and Jacob. Donner. George Donner's brother had also died because he'd pretty much just given up from the moment. It all started. I see. That was really sad was that he just went, he just laid down like when he was that the there's a is interesting about the story too, is that you see what this kind of situation brings out people Franklin graves, that made him a fucking hero, and it made him go do what you do, what he could get to save his family and change for everyone. But Jacob Donner not saying that it was bad like I'm aiming him for anything, but he was already so sick. Then when he got there, you just died. And they talk about this all the time. There's a decision you make at some point and a lot of times. In the book. They brings up a good the people can die on the inside. I, that's it. Kind of like Johnny Depp in the not well known film, but wonderful film dead man, a chance to be very, yeah. A Margaret Reid who had lost everything when her husband was banished from camp. This is James Reid's wife. She fed her children boiled ox hides, and eventually she could only feed him the discarded bones from oxen the others had eaten, essentially it will do it again. I'll do. You can boil bones down to the point, can just bite them. Yeah, sure. Then you get the marrow, I guess by February, fourteen of them were dead, but at the same time, the first of four rescue missions had set off from Johnson's ranch calling themselves. The first relief. That's. It sounds like Kenny Rogers band. I poop of the day. Yeah, I do. Guys give themselves a name. I love. I love it. Yeah. I wonder if that starts, I did just what we're putting together the you want to join the fest relief. Boy. Can we how boys? Yeah, I wanted to be a mountain boys laws out in the mountain. Oh, yeah. And the first relieve, oh, they were rag tag group, do-gooders and mercenary. I love it. And of course, it's far made followed. Willie Nelson performed. There was Jackson Curtis Septimus mood tree and German known only as greasy, Jim, I never wash my hair. There's no reason to why let anybody holds me through easy to phone these days. I prefer to be single grief. I've thought of never. They were all paid the kingly, some of three dollars a day, and they arrive two weeks after setting out. So even they doubled the trip time, they knew take two weeks. Well, they were reasonable and they did run across some like they ran across some troubles, but compared to everything else like they, these were all guys who knew what they were doing right? They abso they knew how long it was gonna take them to get there. They knew what they were doing. They got their two weeks later when they arrived on February eighteenth, they discovered the camp was under almost twenty feet of snow. It was so deep that when a person had died in a cabin, the survivors had to dig inclines in the snow from the door to drag them out because of that corpses just scattered the camp. This to me is the most thing like like like a horror movie. Apart of where the starts is that they come over the ridge. And they're expecting see fires going. They're expecting see people kind of like whatever because they don't really know, and they walk in and it's just dead bodies everywhere you could see almost nothing because they were essentially completely covered in snow. Yeah, and the guy he came and they, he was like, this can't be where the campus because they win exactly that. That's where they told him it would be, and he just likes grit. Legos like Hello in like one frail will woman like crawled up from the snow and like an issue. And I think what she said was Uman from California from heaven. Yeah, yeah. Rick. Western California is tell me about it. I love it seventy degrees and sunny. Twenty two people were brought out by the first relief. Most of those children, but scores were still left behind Margaret Reid and four. Her children were included on that first trip, which was actually like relatively, not that bad. Only two people died on that, yeah, okay. But one of those was three year old ADA Kesse. Berg. It took the first relief -oday to convince aid is mother to leave the little girl behind the men who finally convinced her later wrote that the child spirited went to heaven, a body to the woes. As the first relief crossed the pass. They met the second relief on their way to the lake. All right. That group was led by none other than James read back from fighting in the Mexican American war. Didn't believe me than I would be a part of this. Entire expedition said, I'm gonna come back from Mexico. Going back to the mountain UK David believe it's incredible what I can do. James Reid, he had never forgotten his family, but after he lost a battle key left the war and traveled to San Francisco. And he actually, he managed to raise a thousand dollars for the rescue attempt, and he also gained the support of the navy, a few men from them. James re went to San Francisco. Listen, there's a whole, there's eighty people trapped on the other side of the mountains. Could you please help James read? I mean, he's coming through. So when Margaret Reid saw her husband, she fell to her knees. He ran to her, they embraced, he found out four of his children are alive still a few more back. They're still there were still two more back at the camp. And so he reunited with his wife which he hadn't seen in four months only a couple minutes before he said, I gotta keep going. I gotta save the other kids. Goodness, once read arrived, he'd found the cannibalism had already begun. He did it again. Is that when the cannibalism start heads? No, the cannibalism. Okay. That's when the cannibalism started. This at the Donner at the Donner camp. I love it. So James read, he went into the Murphy cabin an in there. He found gnawed human bones strewn upon the floor next clumps of inedible human hair laying in the beds with a weakened children in the care of a woman named Lavina Murphy. It had been the children who had eaten the dead. Really. One man wrote that the survivors looked more like demons than human beings shoe. My goodness. That is honest. That's a lot right because like kids kind of scare me anyway. Just in terms of this potential, what's going to happen with them? You know, again, go on a Disney cruise and tell me that you don't areas spirit of children, but the idea of children that have gotten a taste for flesh, them all just been like. Immediately look at you like you're a pile of sausages with add on. Terrified downers had resorted to cannibalism as well. Their children had eaten the corpse of Jacob Donner and George reportedly wept as he watched his children, eat the flesh of his only sibling. Wow. The second relief brought out seventeen from that whole scene, three adults and fourteen children. There's was possibly the most harrowing journey of all, although there was no way they could known their fate rested and where they decided to pitch camp on just one night as Brown wrote in the different stars above the place for the second relief pitched camp was just about the perfect spot for experiencing the worst blizzards the Sierra Nevada had to offer. Interestingly, less than one hundred years later, while Disney chose this spot for a Sugar Bowl, ski resort most snowfall of any resort in California. Disney, great corporation, wonderful man, and just down the road, this bad, the weather is there. Now there's a meteorological lab place there specifically to measure extreme weather conditions, and this is where they decided to stay for the night. They had no idea, of course, that's, that's the thing about the Donner party like again. And again, like it's just they just add no idea. They just had no clue because no one had ever been in the mountains at that time of year when he works out native Americans new to not beat it. 'cause it sucked being there would have been there? Yeah, it was like the shining, yes. Good. Very good, very good. They eighteen other up on the storm. Came. The storm came on March. Fifth, it was so cold that one of the men leaned too close to the fire and didn't notice until the flames had burned through four shirts down to his skin. There was so much snow that the firepit actually just it just kept sinking down inventively it made it down ten feet and formed like this big pit that all seventeen of these people used as a borough. Of course, they soon ran out of food right? And Elizabeth graves, another graves was the first to die, leaving behind a young child. And now that I think about it, it really was the graves family that got the raw deal really did. They were good. People were hardy. People they worked on, they were strong. They were moral, like kind of tent poles of the entire party, and they just got. Fucked up. Yeah. And really like at most points, it was either them trying to help other people or it was just bad luck. Okay. And this is their on. This is the second, really? This is the second relief. The first relief already made it back, so they're only only two people died on the first relief. So there's already like a contingent of Donner party that has made it to Johnson's ranch. They're safe in California. This is the second relief member. This is three people like three adults, fourteen children. She's so after Elizabeth graves died, it was decided that reach should go ahead. Johnson's ranch and send back for help. One adult was left behind it. What came to be known as starved camp to watch over fourteen children. Then after the first night it was thirteen and it was Mary Donner seven years old who I brought up cannibalism seven years old. Well. The thing there were two bodies up above Mary Donner. She already eaten her uncle and she told the others. It's not that bad. How scary is that? You look at a little girl? Yes. We girl to leak and just eat the other little. To do all you gotta do is on, I'll, oh an uncle. Jacob goes in your belly and secure a God help killed a little girl. Well, I mean, she also kinda learned it from the camp because another woman, I think it was Jacob's wife. One night. They were cooking like the Mary Astor. It's like, what are we? You know, what are we eating? And she said that the woman, like with a smile on her face, like, what do you think we ate last night shoemakers arm? Oh my God. I guess they had to make it fun for the kids. I would rather have Damian from as a child. These kids are crazy. Yeah. Now, by the time, the rescuers returned the children had stripped Elizabeth graves bones of the majority of flesh, eating the heart, the liver, and the breasts they eaten the kid who died as well that was Isaac Donner, Nancy, graves and other graves, although she didn't know what at the time she'd eaten her own mother. Geez. Now in another rescue party found pretty much was a cannibal whole. Many of them were leaning towards just leaving them there to die yet it 'cause it's just like let the snow just take them like this is a whole nightmare. This whole thing that maybe should just be swept away by time, the weather and then the same time. Like you got, it's still families and they become writhing demons, but. You gotta go to California to be actors. Of course. Course naturally, yeah, but three men step forward saying they wouldn't have any of it oak and they carried the children all the way back to Johnson's ranch. One dude, John stark rescued nine children all on his own. He would carry a kid a few steps and they go back for the next one and then carry her a few steps and then go back for the next one. And the next one for miles upon miles. This guy is a disguise deserves the statue. For some reason. I just feel like every time he grabbed a child, it's like when you try to petro wow with, it's not yours. Try to help in John Starks family went on to carry the Knicks and the same exact way. Well. John Starks. Meanwhile things were getting even more grim at Truckee lake Lewis Kesse Burke who, until this point was no more than like just a background character with an injured foot was slowly becoming one of the stories. Main villains. I feel like it's got something to do with the foot because early on. So when they arrived at Truckee lake Lewis Berg was a guy that he couldn't do very much because he stepped on a sharp branch which is off. All the suffering going on those guys. I did step on a short branch. I, this is my right foot, which is my favorite. Here's a part of that fed into this insanity because he was really useless early on. So I think he sat and watched and became more and more to mended weeks went, maybe fiction infections can make a little nutty to maybe a one night Louis Kesse Berg took one year old George foster and do his bed. Oh, by the morning, little foster was dead. We don't know if the kid died a natural causes or if Louis Kesse Virk just smothered him and either way Kesse Burg took the body from his bed and hung it on a peg on the wall. Like it was little more than a suckling pig soon after George Foster's father arrived with the third relief. And when he discovered that Kesse Burke had eaten his infant son, he almost killed him, but decided instead. That he'd had enough of murder. Thank you. Have had your fill of. Yeah, he told him five or c if I see in California, I'll kill you, but I ain't going to do it here while consequently, George foster left Kesse Berg there to be rescued by the fourth and last party led by quote, unquote, flamboyant mountain man named William gross follow. I love him. They call me gross that only because of the way I dress go boys up over the mountain tippety tap. This guy, the fourth relief left on April thirteenth, eleven months after the Donners and the reads had left Independence Missouri grant. The third relief had taken the majority back and only four remained Lavina Murphy who had saw who had watched over the cannibal cabin Kesse Burg the goal and the last two Donner's Tamsin and George. All right. Because George, he'd never recovered from that cut, but he had survived the entire time and Tamsin she'd completely refused to leave him at every turn. Now, the fourth relief knew that probably wasn't much of a chance of bringing back all four Tamsin and casper. They were healthy enough when the third relief left, but the other two were almost certainly dead. What the fourth relief was actually after was loot. Oh yeah, because that was a lie shit. Like these people had brought a lot of stuff that they brought gold brought silver. They brought fabrics like about this, but the graves family had their entire family fortune buried into like built inside of their wagon. Name had like thousands of dollars of silver, like interested their their stuff, and they knew will go. And essentially the deal was is that you get to keep some of the shit and you could bring back whoever's left the four of the ghoulish members that are left though the most evil and demented sick and broken. You just have to bring those back. And the gross was just like, not the creepiest thing brought back to my apartment. Go get a once. The fourth relief got to the camp, what they found was most likely a murder scene, although it must be said that there's some debate as to the veracity of the flamboyant mountain men's account. Okay. He said when they arrived, there was no one to be seen, but the camp itself was strewn with mutilated arms legs skulls and limbless torsos one of the guys who had been there. I think his name was reason reason, Tucker. He said that he'd been there on the second relief and they're definitely been bodies there when he left, but then that at least been whole kind of like a battlefield seen. This was closer to a slaughterhouse. That was at the lake when they went to Alder creek where the Donner camp was got even worse. They said when they got to George Donner's tent. They didn't find George Donner. They just found his head my God. Split open and the insides have been scooped out and the brains were in a nearby kettle. Simmering and Kesse Burg was the culprit. It's me again. I do it again. They called me champ. Can you do. Oh, and win. The fourth relief finally found Kesse Burke. He was not shy in any way about saying that he was the last survivor and that he'd eight all the rest of them. But he also made sure to say that Thames Donner's flesh was the best he'd have tasted. Oh, that's that's good. Good. Good. Oh, tell me you better yelp at. But Lor he denied murder and Kesse. Berg said that Tamsin had died pretty soon after George supposedly after Georgia's death. Tamsin tried to leave because she said, I nothing here. Leifer me. Like I'm gonna go find my kids. I have to go see my kids. I don't care. I'm gonna go. But what casper said was that she didn't get very far before she fell new creek. She got wet. She caught a chill and died that very night in casper claim that her last wish is that he should take the last of the Donner silver to their children in California. Of course it was absolutely. All of this is true. The indifferent stars above. If if Jeffrey Dahmer would have just read this book. Defendant, judge I was hungry. You understand? I was. Scam where I was at, I was doing intermittent fasting. You've been on the ten hours a day. Now the fourth really of course they didn't believe God damn word of it, right? Kesse Burke. He did have some money in his pockets, but the group knew that wasn't all of it because they had an accounting what was there. So they tied a noose around Kesse birds neck and choked him Tila gave up the goods. He showed him where he'd buried the rest of the silver and after the men were paid, they were on their way with Kesse Berg, following behind Lewis, Cass Berg, who ate more human flesh than anyone else during the winter of eighteen forty six eighteen forty seven was the last survivor of the Donner party camp. He died a free man decades later known till his dying day as Kesse Burg the cannibal. It is definitely a sketch, this sketch where it's like the guy that goes up because it's closer to 'cause we rewatch a cannibal, the musical this stick great. It's really funny. It really holds up, but it's the same bit where it's like the guy goes up with six people come and he's all fat coming back. Would happen. The accident. I'm not real sure like Gaspart just kind of Keith got to see the abyss visits a part of me like I'm not jealous in any way, shape or form. There's anything where you look at it and like straight with that caveat in their lead me to believe you are slightly jealous because I wasn't thinking you would be within you did say, you're not so something about being able to just give little gander and to the abyss of pure insanity and see what it's like to kind of get into a kind of rub your hands all over it and really get it up zero fucking eyebrows, getting your hair. It's not. Comecon seeing it must be interesting. Yeah, should be able to go all the way to those depths and then just like being California and now you're just a guy going to the store now you're just living life you doing your day today, but you fucking a child cigarettes ago. What do you mean? My relatives car doesn't. So did they interview? 'cause I would love to hear what this guy had. He denied it all he. He said, no, I didn't do stress preposterous to that. I would ever do a nipple or something. Out of the original party of the donors in the reads, all five of George Donner's tildren survived. Jacob. Donner's family would not be so lucky. All of them. Jacob Donner, his wife, all the kids only three out of the nine survived the reads, however, despite losing everything, when James was banished didn't lose a single one. That's incredible. Thanks to the resourcefulness of their mother. Winners win. Yeah, the Breen's they didn't lose any either. Although I would say they owed their greatest share gratitude to John stark. In fact, that's what the mother said. She says, I think, no, I have no one to think, but God stark and the Virgin Mary. Look at that in two of them did nothing. Technically up everything else, even the snow. They did all the bullshit. Far as the rest of them went, the rest of the Donner party survivors. A lot of them they lived full lives. They were quite successful. Horrible PTSD naturally? Yeah. Like, was it Nancy, graves? If you even mentioned the diner party, she would immediately think about eating her own mother and she would burst into tears. Another the grave sisters, she couldn't cry anymore. After she got rescued, she said, if I could, if I could was the quota thing. Something like if I could forget what had happened, I might be able to cry again. But since I cannot I cannot there was another one. There was one other woman that one of the Reed said that she couldn't have Christmas dinner without thinking about the Christmas that they had on Donner lake as after the Donners were rescued. It was no longer Truckee like it was now Donner laying. It was Donner lake, and it was interesting on Christmas days. They did talk about how. Because they saved some stuff. They had these little celebrations inside of the tents where they save some beans. They saved a little bit of meat. They manage to kill a grizzly bear at one point and divided it up, which was very, very Dow was an intense fucking battle. There's there's so much here for a movie that is yet to really be like expressed. It's like just the idea revenue style of going out and killing a grizzly bear, essentially with their fucking hands and dividing the meet up us. Very, very, yeah. And that's why we keep saying, go read the indifferent stars above because our to coverage on this. We're skimming the fucking surface on what this story actually is this story there. So many like there's so many stories like the grizzly bear story where of one do shot like single handedly took down eight hundred pound grizzly, and there are tons of stories like that stories of heroism stories of cowardice. And that's why this. The Donner party story is so fucking amazing. And then even what happened to some them afterwards is a great story. Sarah graves, remember her. She lost both. Her husband and her father on the four, Lauren hope journey. Her life just kept getting worse. Well, not worse worse. I mean her second husband, he got lynched as a mule, thief. Going on. Yeah, lynched as a mule thief and ULA mules. I mean, how the hell didn't Rasputin used to steal horses and stuff yet, but that was Russia. On reminded time, what do you do with the stolen you'll ever. It's like, you didn't have a meal yesterday. We're missing them you'll. And now you have a mule immune. You take the meal from far away and then you bring into where you are until all your neighbors. I bought a mule, but now going, you put a hat on it a little jacket and you say my son takes offense what you're saying. No. In the old west, you steal anyone's means a conveyance and your fucking debt shirt. You're one hundred percent debt cattle rustlers too. And Maryanne, graves can Sarah graves sister. She married one of her rescuers, but he was murdered in eighteen forty eight. And she actually sat there and cooked meals for her husband's murderer. Why? So he wouldn't starve while he was waiting to be hung. 'cause that's what actual quote unquote Christian morals are supposed to be, which is that you care for people, I'm why was he killed? We know I can't remember why exactly why he was murdered by. I mean, it was murder. It was straight straight up murder, but others totally leaned into this. Like a lot of them gave accounts to the press and Elisa Donner. She published a memoir, but she also denied all accounts of cannibalism, which we know very much to be true. Right. And even Kesse Berg, the. Cannibal. He was rumored to have opened a restaurant in Sacramento, although this clean, I say, the claim is highly dubious relation of only man. I 'cause like I'm unfortunately I would go, I would go. We don't get out. Of course, we'd all go. Yeah, and so the saga of the Donner party comes to a close, and if there's any lesson to be learned from taking a shortcut, you've never seen touted by men. You've never met. It's this. Do you want it done fast or he'll want it done? Right. Thanks. Dad. Bad if it's slightly wrong way run longer. That's that's the thing they tried doing it fast because they tried doing it fast. They fucked up. You gotta take your time. You gotta put in the work and then eventually it's gonna pay off. Feel like you would really like basketball when Jerry West one stop on mental mental. Demento. I love the way the white people teach basketball. Honestly, guys, this story sell fucked with like you get to the end of it and you're just like, I am hungry. I'm also when I was watching it no extra ninety. I'm not gonna say that at all either one of us at no point when I was researching that, I think like, ooh, cheeseburger time you. Donald Trump goes overseas to be with a dictator, and he's like, I could go for a parade kill some dealers. Research, the research, you just come away like I get it. I can jump into their heads. You know what it is that I will say. That's a part of this kind of story to definitely was reading it outside. It was, I took a break from working in office over here, and I went to go read the book outside and it transports you to that place. I'm very scary, especially in the very end when you were talking about being in the the the snow hovels and they're stuck down there on the you have no other way out it. Those are the types of like when I have reoccurring nightmares. My nightmares have been, I'm stuck on the side of a mountain and I can't get down man. I would love to see you get arrested like Onlive PD, reading the book. Don't take my book. My motoring, your. Wow, awesome. Well, that is totally crazy. That's insane. Right. I'm surprised. I didn't realize how many people actually survived. Yeah, which is really impressive considering they didn't have shoes in the middle of the winter in the in the mountains. Yeah. I mean, it was just the the amount of suffering that these people went through cannot be understated. I understand. Again, I were very light jacket. I walked all the way to Hollywood video. Seven degrees and it was very cold. I will say there is a part of this. That is it's kind of uplifting in a win there is where do we? We can survive a lot are actually not that frail like we can pull through and do shit each just have to want something if the wanna survive if they have something to live for and they all had that they were different tier. People were filled with dreams. Yeah, no apps. It doesn't happen today. Today's America. No one's. We are not. We're not capable. Even the pressures I think would probably. Oh, you're going to survive without your tactical bath dry? Exactly the prep. They love freeze dried food, and they're eating like kings in there. I've seen. All right. Well, let's wrap it up here. Thanks to much forgiving to our patriot Henry. I had a great interview this week with Caitlin Doty. She is a, she runs a what's? What's the name of her. The name of her book is smoke, gets in your eyes. And basically she runs a mortuary and we talk a lot about death and mortuary science, and it's quite bats. I hear that book is fucking great. Yes, she was off. Great. It's a very good. It's. It's a fun read and you learn a lot about funerals? Yes. And of course you can find all of us on social media and things like that. We, what do we do? We want to announce anything. We have anything to announce, not quite. We're still we're coming to DC. Go check out DC and November for the death becomes festival Google for that or us being. I'm using now. Being Joan USA. L.. And we're also we're going to be announcing a big tour here. Coming up soon. We're going to be returning to. We're going to be returning new place. We've been before big bigger or bigger thing might be bigger. Very excited for this hit the road. I miss me. Boys follow us on Twitter or whatever the fuck it is you want, I guess at LP on the left's role that shush. All right, everyone hail yourselves, hail Satan. Gene. Helmi Magoo solutions donated child's brain don't. The map is not a territory. Remember that always.

Donner party Truckee lake Charles Stanton Donners Luis George Donner Franklin Patrick Dolan Sierra Nevada Henry Salvador California hypothermia Lauren hope Breen Murphy Iraq George Donner Donner Alfred Packer Tunis
Best of 2019: The Donner Party Pt. 3

Survival

51:49 min | 1 year ago

Best of 2019: The Donner Party Pt. 3

"The following episode contains descriptions of starvation murder and cannibalism that some listeners may find offensive listener discretion is advised especially for children under under thirteen January twenty first eighteen forty seven. It felt like the cold would never end Elisa. Williams uh-huh trudged through the snow legs aching with each step. The twenty five year old woman had come on the journey west with the read family as their cook. Her brother and Albino man named bayless had been working as a handyman for the reads as well. It was good employment and the two of them had looked forward to a bright future in California but once they arrived in truckee river valley. Everything went horribly wrong. The entire Party became became snowed in with supplies diminishing rapidly at first bayless and Eliza took care of the children but only a month after getting caught in the valley. Bayless died of fever. He was the first to perish at the Lake Camp as rations thinned. Elisa found her own position even more tenuous having their own cook had once been a luxury reads could afford but now that food food such a scarce resource. She was merely another mouth to feed. She had to fend for herself. When Elisa Elisa finally reached the breen family's cabin she pleaded with the occupants to give her a bit of beef? She couldn't stomach the scraps of ox. Hide Mrs Graves Graves had given her. She received sympathy but nothing else. Patrick Breen's diary noted simply Elisa will not eat it hides Mrs read sent her back to live or die on them. Welcome to survival. Apar- cast original. I'm your host Irma Blanco. And I'm Tim Johnson every Monday. We'll take view inside incredible true stories of life or death situations you can find episodes of survival and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream survival for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type survival in the search bar at podcast. We're grateful for you our our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network and and if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening it really does help? This is our third and final episode on the Donner Party. A group over eighty would be settlers who became trapped on their way to the largely unclaimed territory of California this tweak. We'll follow the remaining survivors to the end of their journey after slaughtering almost all of their livestock for food and getting buffeted by multiple snowstorms. The men and women of the Donner Party faced the likely prospect that they would be trapped in the truckee river valley for the rest of the winter. Many of the group including the leader of the party. Ready George Donner were too weak to travel the rest had to weigh their options. Would they attempt to brave the elements and risk dying in the cold or stay with their families and risk starvation on December sixteenth. A group group of fifteen men and women nicknamed the forlorn hope set out to summit. The Sierra Nevada mountain range that had blocked their path though. Some uh-huh still in the camp prayed they would return with help soon. Others took matters into their own hands. Margaret Reid whose husband James had been expelled eld from the company for murder set out from the camp on January fourth hoping to climb the SIERRAS and catch up with the forlorn hope. Five days later she returned unsuccessful by January. The emigrants had been stranded in the valley for two months. Living in cabins utterly buried in snow banks. Everyone in the camp was week. Six had perished. Death seemed to hang over the entire camp as they waited for the next member to succumb to starvation or the bitter cold on the morning of January twenty fifth. Those those living in the brain cabin heard a cry of despair from the adjacent shelter where the German immigrant Louis Keys Berg had been living with his wife and two children. Even no one in the party was particularly fond of keys Berg. He was harsh and inconsiderate man. Who many believed was abusive toward his wife? But on that morning it was hard not to be sympathetic towards the man. He's Burg's son Louis Keys. Berg junior had died in the night Patrick Breen who had been keeping a daily diary all winter wrote on January twenty. Sixth those who went to Sutter's not yet returned provision growing scant people growing week living on a small allowance of hides pretty much. The only food they had left were the ox hides. They had been using his blankets or tent covers. Families tore them up into strips and cooked them mm-hmm or boiled them to make an insubstantial stu even to the starving settlers. It was barely edible. They had no way of knowing that just one hundred miles to the west seven of their traveling companions had made their way to safety and were preparing a rescue expedition. Addition a pioneer named reason. Pete Tucker was at Sutter's fort when he heard that a group of Donner Party survivors. I had reached Johnson's ranch with the help of John. Sutter Tucker gathered all the men and supplies he could and set off to meet those who lead miraculously survived. When they rode into Johnson's ranch? In early February they found seven members of the forlorn. Hope William Etty William Foster Sarah Foster and four other women recovering in Johnson's care. Most of them were still too weak to travel. None of them mentioned that they had eaten their deceased companions to survive. Only William Etty volunteered to lead Tucker's men back over the SIERRAS. Eddie was still frail and malnourished but as far as he knew his wife Eleanor and his children Margaret and James were starving by the lake camp waiting for his return he did not want to waste any time resting on February fourth. The first I relief party of fourteen men set off from Johnson's ranch that same day by the Lake Camp Margaret Eddie starved to death Tucker kept a diary during the first few days of the rescue expedition. His first entry on February fifth eighteen forty forty seven was unenthusiastic about their progress. First Day traveled ten miles. Bad roads often miring in down horses and Mules Tucker continued to write on the sixth and seventh traveled. Fifteen miles road continued. He knew bad commenced raining before we got to camp and continue to rain all that day and night very severe even if they got to the lake camp soon they'd have to fight the harsh winter in both directions. Fortunately for the trapped emigrants. This policy was not the only one headed their way. James F read exiled member of the Donner Party had had been fighting in the Mexican American war while his family was snowbound. In the Sierra Nevada's he participated in the Battle of Santa Clara hoping that if the war ended swiftly he would be able to gather men to rescue the Donner Party but shortly after the battle he received a letter from William. Am Big Bill mccutcheon. Who was in Napa Valley gathering men and supplies to rescue his infant daughter? Harriet from the mountains. This letter tersely slee read. You had better come in haste as there is no time to delay on February seventh. James read left San Francisco for cinema determined determined to join up with mccutchen three days later on February tenth the First Relief Party began to pass through the snow covered. Parts parts of the mountain tucker recorded in his diary animals floundering in snow and camped at the Mule Springs the elevation and was three thousand eight hundred forty nine feet and the pack animals. Were not the only one. Struggling William Etty strength was flagging and as the snow piled up around him and the ground grew steeper. He realized he didn't have the energy to make it up the mountain on February eleventh seventh. He reluctantly took the pack mules and went back down the slope on February. Eighteenth the rest of the group reached the summit of the Sierra Nevada. Vada overlooking Truckee Lake the entire Canyon was white with snow. Not a single cabin was visible by the lake. Without William Eddie to guide them Tucker had no way of recognizing the camp but they descended anyway making their way down the mountains and across cross the frozen surface of the lake. By their estimation the snow was around eighteen feet high. Any cabins would be completely completely buried. The men shouted across the snowbanks praying that they hadn't arrived too late at the sound of a human voice. Figures began to appear. Daniel Rhodes a member of the first relief described his first. I shocked impression of the Donner Party. We saw a woman emerged from a hole in the snow as we approached her. Several others made their appearance. They were gaunt with famine. And I never can forget the horrible ghastly sight. They presented this first woman and they saw thirty five year. Old Levine Murphy cried out to the rescuers in a hollow voice are you men from California or did you come from heaven. The camp was a grisly sight. Eleven had died so far and bodies lay scattered about the camp half buried in the snow. The families of the deceased barely had the strength to drag the bodies a few feet away from their shelters alongside the bones of their slaughtered walks in the party distributed. Small portions of food among the Murphy Cabin being careful not to overfeed the shrunken survivors. Later that evening Tucker spied another column of smoke. Rising from a hole in the snow half a mile to the South Tucker reached the smokes origin around eight pm it was coming from the graves. Cabin Tucker was greeted by starved served Elizabeth Graves who had watched her husband and two oldest daughters leave over two months ago. She asked Tucker where Franklin was and whether author He Sarah Mary Ann and Jay had gotten through Tucker told her that they had made it but were to frozen to make the return journey. This was only a partial truth as both Franklin and Jay had died during the trip tucker reason that admitting the full truth breath disheartened Elizabeth and her remaining children. Even further Elisabeth was suspicious automatically fearing the worst had happened to her family early. The next day Tucker and the others traveled northeast to the Alder Creek Camp there. They found the Donner family with only a single ox. Yes Hi between them for Food Tamsin Donner and her recently. Widowed sister in Law Elizabeth had twelve children between them who they struggled to feed thompsons husband. George was bedridden his entire right arm infected from a cut on his hand Tucker explained to the women that they can only bring enough food for a couple of days. He told them they needed to bring everyone who could walk out of the Valley of the whole whole group Thompson. Donner was in the best condition. Physically she still had enough energy to walk about their tent while the rest of her family was reduced crawling but despite her relative strength she would not go with him. She couldn't leave her husband. Behind between the two camps at Alder Creek and Truckee Lake. Many did not have the strength to leave Lewis Keys. Berg Berg had a foot injury that prevented him from walking but his wife Philippine would make the journey with their three year old child. Ada leaving her crippled and bitter husband. Behind on February twenty-second a party of twenty two survivors. Set off across the lake. This included Margaret Reid. Who is determined to break out of the mountains? Whatever the cost but two of her children three year old Thomas and eight-year-old? Patty were too weak to go. Very Far Tucker told Margaret that the two children would have to return to the cabins. Many years later leanna donner would dictate a vivid description of this journey to her children. In her words we were a sad spectacle to look upon as as we left the cabins. We marched along in single file. The leader wearing snowshoes and the others following after all stepping in the leaders tracks Iraq's we replaced on short allowance of food from the start and each day. This allowance was cut shorter and shorter until we received not for our evening and morning. Meal two small pieces of jerked beef about the size of the index finger of the hand with food supplies. Running low tucker feared that the entire group would perish. He decreed that everyone would be on half rations and for the rest of the journey but even effectively budgeting their food stores could not keep death at bay soon after their departure the infant Ada cheeseburger died having just buried her son. Louis Junior less than a month earlier Philippine was not prepared to lose. It was her second child. She clutched the baby to her breast refusing to let her go as the rest of the party moved on reason Tucker sat down beside Philippine and asked her if she could give him the child and join the others reluctantly. She complied in Tucker's own words after she was out of sight roads and myself buried the child in the snow. Best we could. Her Spirit went to heaven and her body to wolves next the remnants of the Donner Party fight their way through the mountains while their families lays tried desperately not to starve now back to the story. By the time the first relief arrived at truckee delake on February eighteenth eighteen forty seven there were just over. Fifty members of the Donner Party. Left alive. Those who remained were were skeletal shells of their former selves. Barely able to crawl around their meager shelters. The twenty two strongest survivors started started west with the first relief. On February twenty-second the thirty three who remained included. The leader of the Party George Donner whose right arm had become severely infected from a cut on his hand. Nine months ago he had left Illinois with dreams of making his fortune in the new land of California. Now he couldn't even get out of bed heading back through. The mountains caused a great deal of stress. Ask for the Relief Party and survivors their food rations were utterly depleted and by February twenty. Sixth they were toasting their rawhide shoestrings. Oh strings for lunch. Aquilla Glover and John Rhodes set off a head of the group hoping to encounter another group of rescuers whereas on the way in an ironic twist of fate. Their relief party was in desperate need of relief. Shortly after glover over inroads returned with dried beef they had encountered a group of men coming the other way and had been sent back with supplies the two parties. He's met the next day as the new men introduce themselves Margaret. Reid heard a familiar voice. She rushed toward the head of the column followed by her children. Virginia and James Junior finally the figures of big bill mccutchen and James F. Reid came into view. View Margaret sank to her knees from exhaustion and her long lost husband stooped to embrace her. They had not seen each other since October October but the warmth of their reunion faded. When James read realized? Just how starved. His family had become uh-huh since their last meeting he wrote later. I cannot describe the death like look. They all had bread bread. Bread read was the begging of every child and grown person. Following the tearful reunion. James Reed told Margaret that he had took press on to the lake camp. He had a duty to rescue their last two children and had promised mccutchen that he would help him find his own child. So the read family parted ways once again. James continued on toward Truckee Lake while Margaret Virginia. And James Junior made for Sutter's fort. We have very few records of what happened at the Lake Camp. During this time the few records we do have indicate this is when the snowbound survivors began to turn to cannibalism. Lavina Murphy suggested to the Breen's that they eat the body body of milt Elliott a teamster who had died several days before Patrick Breen recorded this in his diary. I don't think that she she has done so yet. It is distressing. The donners told the California folks that they would commence to eat the dead people for days ago. I suppose they have done so air this time yet. Another tragedy awaited the rescue party heading for the Fort Twelve year old William Hook Stepson. Stepson of George Donner became Ravenous on the twenty eighth of February. He noticed that every night after distributing food rations to the party Tucker Tucker and the others hung the remaining supplies off a nearby tree that night Williams scaled the tree and broke into the food stores during the morning. Tucker and the others discovered the boy lying by the tree gasping his pockets full of dried beef. He died shortly after his shrunken digestive system. Unable to process the sudden abundance of food on March I read and mccutchen finally arrived at Truckee Lake. They had not seen their traveling companions since October and were heartbroken to see them so frail and near death the bodies that had been scattered around the camp ground. Amir week ago we're now bones. Read entered. Entered the Murphy Cabin. I an informed everyone within that they would need to leave in two days while the others prepared soup for the survivors reed and mccutchen reburied maccagnan's infant daughter Harriet. who died in early February? The next morning they pushed onto the donners honors camp. The Donner family was in a grim. St Elizabeth was lying in her tent by her children without the strength to move. You've in the other tent George. Lay death's door attended by Hamson. Their three children were healthier than either of the parents. According to Georgia Donner the adults had finally decided to prepare human flesh to feed the youngest children figuring they were too a young to taste it. She wrote father was crying and did not look at us during the time. As they had with the Murphys Reed and mccutchen and gave the donners food and told them that anyone who had the strength to come with them in two days must do so then. James read made his way back to the late camp to check the other cabins for stragglers on March third. James Reid returned to the late camp. Where where he met Lewis cheeseburger for the first time since his exile? The last time they saw each other keys Berg had suggested to the rest rest of the group that they hang read instead of exiling him but his read approach. The other man's withered figure. He made no mention of have their last bitter encounter instead. Read Bathed Keys Berg and gave him a fresh set of clothes keys. Berg said Reed had no oh animosity toward me. He found me too weak to move. He washed me combed my hair and treated me kindly indeed. He had had no cause to do otherwise keys. Berg showed some selective memory in his account never mentioning their previous quarrels. Perhaps his intention was to whitewash. His own reputation. Has James. Reid was no longer. The pariah had been when keys bird called for his death now now he was their savior and keys. Berg wouldn't want to be remembered as the man who tried to hang their rescuer before read left. He gave keys Berg a half pound of dried beef from his pack and a Half Tea Cup of flour. He told the German that he would return in two weeks and carry Harry him over the mountain. Then James Reid left the camp taking seventeen survivors with him. This included his two remaining children Patrick Breen and his family Elizabeth Graves and her children and three of the younger donner's he left behind behind three men to care for the survivors until the next expedition arrived as they went through the melting snow. The clouds darkened Arken overhead. Read jotted down some scattered thoughts in his journal night closing fast. The clouds still thickening terror terror to many my heart dare not communicate my mind to any depth to all it. Provisions do not come on March Fifth Jeff the blizzard hit the second relief huddled around the fire as the storm raged aged around them reed and mccutchen lead men to forage for firewood. The task grew increasingly difficult. As the weather intensified the fire continually melted the snow sinking deeper as the rescuers tried their best to shield the logs from the wind and snow. Eventually the whole in the snow was wide enough for everyone to lay within it. Sheltering them from the wind returning from a trip together would big big bill. mccutchen lay down next to the fire. He was so numb from the cold. He didn't notice his clothes. Ignite all four shirts. He was was wearing burnt off his back before he realized what was happening. He quickly doused the fire and amazingly he was only slightly singed at the same time. The other leader of the group James Reid was suffering far worse. He became almost completely snow blind line one day into the blizzard. The party were effectively stuck an almost completely out of food. On march seventh. The snowfall stopped read having recovered. Most of his site proposed. They forage forward but the Party. Hardy had suffered immensely over the three days during the chaos of the storm. Elizabeth Graves starved to death. Never learning that her tildren Marianne and Sarah were waiting for her on the other side of the mountains. She was joined in death by two five year olds her her son Franklin graves junior and Isaac Donner the son of Jacob and Elizabeth Donner out of options Reed Reed and mccutchen abandoned. Everyone who was too weak to go on the only survivors who could join them. Were reads to young children but the group of four had to continue on. They didn't WanNa give up and starve when they could bring more supplies back the whole that they he left the brains and graves in would later be known as starved camp. Patrick Breen watched them go praying. That another rescue party would pass them soon. He huddled with his family with no food. Save for the three bodies of their friends lying. Hang on the outside of the snow pit as read left. The eleven survivors in the mountains. Tamsin Donner received. You've terrifying news backed by Alder Creek. Elizabeth Donner had died days earlier in two of the men who had agreed to look after her family Charles Stone and Charles Katie. Were Planning on heading back West on their own fearing they would be abandoned. Tamsin promised to pay the men take her three remaining daughters over the mountains. The men agreed taking the six year old Francis four year old Georgia Zsa and three-year-old away with them however by the time they reached the lake camp they realized they could not carry the three children trend through such thick snow so they deposited the donner girls. In the Murphy Cabin. There were four living individuals in the Murphy. Cabin at the time. Levine Murphy. Her eight year old son Simon her one year old grandson George foster and the increasingly wild Lewis Skis Berg despite reads attempt to nurse him back to health keys. Berg had grown distant after being abandoned by his wife and surviving in daughter sometime after March. Eighth Keys Berg took the child George foster into bed with him extensively to keep the child warm. The next morning George was dead. Levine Murphy accused Keys Berg of killing the Child Keys Berg. Eric did not respond to these accusations. But merely laid the baby's body on the floor of the cabin and returned to bed sometime later. The donor girls saw keys burke walk over to George Foster's body pick him up and hang on a peg like a cut of meat. Uh Back at starved Camp Patrick Breen had given up all hope lying at the bottom bottom of the hole in the ground staring up into space. His wife Margaret kept their children alive on pitifully small doses of T. EH heated over the fire and Sweden's with the one lump of sugar. She had left but this barely took the edge off the ravenous hunger consuming assuming the eleven survivors one night. She woke Patrick in a panic saying that her baby was dying. Patrick Breen replied ride. Let Him die. He will be better off than any of US shortly after Charles Stone and Charles Katie passed by I on their way back from the lake camp. Seeing the three bodies in the snow they looked into the whole making eye. Contact with the emaciated survivors. I soldiered on unable to help at some point after they left. Desperate for any kind of sustenance. Mary Donner honor suggested that they start eating the dead days later on the afternoon UNIV- March twelfth. The third relief arrived at starved camp. This party was led by William Eddie and William Foster to surviving men. One of the forlorn hope they were both motivated by the same urge to find their youngest sons. What they found at starved served camp was horrific by the whole in the snow was the butchered body of Elizabeth Graves and a pile of child sized sized bones that had once been Franklin Graves Junior? The third relief were faced with the problem married honor and the graves was children. Were strong enough to continue. But the Breen's were too weak to make it through the mountains without help carrying them the whole way back would mean and splitting their party up leaving only a few to go ahead to the lake camp. They took a vote on whether to leave the brains behind all all but one voted to leave. The Breen's the outlying vote was from a man named John Stark the next morning. The party Split Eddie Foster and two others continued going east while another two men took Mary Donner and the infant Elizabeth Graves Sir. John Stark took charge of the remaining graves. Children and all the Breen's the children took turns writing on his back on March thirteenth. William Eddie and William Foster arrived at truckee lake several weeks after they had left it. They made the murphy cabin where Reid had told them. Their children lived their two sons. Were nowhere to be seen. They only found Levine. DIVINA Murphy Her son. The three youngest donner girls and Louis. Keys Berg Eddie Confronted Keys Berg demanding ending to know what became of their sons keys. Berg told him the two boys had died and been eaten. Eddie was infuriated fury aided he almost killed keys Berg on the spot he stopped himself reasoning that he would not kill a starved man on on a rescue mission instead. He promised to kill him if they ever met again in. California foster and Eddy left. The cabin happen where they encountered Tamsin donner stumbling through the woods. She had come from their camp looking for her children. Eddy in foster escorted her to the Murphy cabin allowing her a brief reunion with her. Three Young Girls Tamsin was overjoyed overjoyed. They were still alive and insisted they go with the rescue group Eddy in foster attempted to persuade Thompson to come with him but taxon insisted that she be allowed to take one last. Visit to the Alder Creek Camp to see if George Donner was still alive. Eddy the and foster could not wait their group left immediately leaving Tamsui behind she began the arduous trudge back to Alder Creek Creek where her husband still stubbornly clung to life by this point his arm was completely rotten with gangrene and and he was barely conscious. He to insisted Tamsin go with the rescuers but she would not let him die alone. Only four members of the Donner Party remained in the two camps Thompson and George Donner remained in their tent by Alder Creek in a cabin by the lake. One man and one woman remained. who were too weak to travel? The starved Levine Murphy and an increasingly desperate Louis Keys Berg when we return these four final members of the Donner Party reach a gruesome end now the conclusion to the story by mid March eighteen forty seven. The horrors of the Donner Party. Were almost at an end. Three arduous rescue expeditions had attempted to bring bring the camps survivors across the Sierra Nevada due to continuing harsh weather and the bare minimum of supplies. Many of the survivors had died during transit and even more died by the lake. While they're rescued family members. Were taken to safety by at the time. William Eddie and William Foster caught up with the remainder of the third relief there were only a few stragglers left at the camp as far whereas they knew George and Tamsin Donner remained by Alder Creek. And Levine Murphy was living by Truckee Lake with Louis Keys. Berg Eddy in foster encountered a camp on the other side of the mountains. A company led by Salem Woodworth. Eddie told Woodworth there were for people who still needed to be rescued but the man refused to go back for them. His priority was to transport those who had already been rescued to Johnson's ranch. The first settlement on the west side of the Sierra Nevada's when the survivors gathered at the ranch they took stock of their situation. Most families were in tatters ragged and diminished incredibly. Both the Breen and the read families were completely intact though they still required weeks to fully recover from their starved state. The the reeds were the only members of the party who had not cannibalized their fellow members to survive on April thirteenth a fourth and final relief party set out east toward Truckee Lake. Led by William League Grow Fallon Alan and experienced mountain man. The only member of the Donner Party go back with them. Was William Foster. Who wanted to see if Levine Murphy Fi? His mother-in-law was still alive. They were also joined by reason. P Tucker who had led the first relief fallon and the new you members of the party were largely motivated by the rumors of gold in the donners possession which would have been left unclaimed in the Alder Creek Camp. They signed an agreement saying they were allowed. A percentage of whatever valuables they found in the camp they arrived on April seventeenth. Seeing the camp again reason Tucker wrote in horror death and destruction horrible site human bones women's skulls Saad to get the brains better dwell in the midst of alarm then to remain in this horrible place foster and Tucker search the cabins for survivors fallon and the others searched for money trinkets. Soon they came across. Levine Murphy lying. In the snow one of her limbs removed the saw still lying playing by her body. Their search uncovered no survivors or gold. After two hours of scouring the camp they headed head to the Alder Creek tents. It was an even more horrific sight. Bits and pieces of human bodies were scattered about the tents kettle inside the main tent was filled with chunks of meat cut from the bodies nearby. They found George Donner's severed evert head Donner skull had been split open and the brains completely removed fallon packed up as many the of the valuables as he could find but there was still no sign of Donner's gold. What they did find were a series of tracks in the snow? Oh heading away from the Donner camp. The tracks led to the cabin that had been constructed by Franklin graves chiefs inside. They found Lewis Keys Berg. He was alive but almost feral when asked where Tamsin Donner was does. Cheeseburger told them with detached frankness that she was dead and Eaten Fallon Interrogated Keys Berg demanding to I know where the donners money was. He's Berg said he didn't know of any money. The men didn't believe him. They searched every inch of the cabin and found several of the Donner Silks George Donner's pistols in two hundred twenty five dollars worth of gold coins on keys. Burg's person person rumor had it. The George Donner had almost ten thousand dollars worth of coin when he departed from Illinois suspicious the keys Berg had hidden rest. They insisted he explained himself. He's Berg told. The men that Levine Murphy had only lived for about a week after after the last relief party had left. He claimed to have waited four days before butchering and eating her body out of necessity by his own own admission keys Berg had been driven nearly mad by the staring eyes of his deceased companions since he was too weak to remove their bodies from his cabin in an interview years later he said I am fluent with four different languages yet. In all all four I do not find words enough to express the horror I experienced during those two months many a time I had the muzzle of my pistol in my mouth and my finger on the trigger but the faces of my helpless dependent wife and child would rise up before perform me and my hand would fall powerless. He told Fallon that after weeks of surviving on lean human meat he encountered Tamsin Donner coming back from the Alder Creek Camp. Her husband had died and she was intent on crossing using the mountains herself but when she made the attempt she fell into a creek and cottage. Chill she made keys Berg promise her that he would save save their gold for her children. The men did not believe keys burke according to read Tamsin Donner had been in relatively good health when they left her. Her sudden death didn't seem likely they left keys Berg behind and resume their salvaging a day later where they returned to keys Bergh's cabin their second interrogation was far less gentle than the first fallon's men through a noose around keys Burg's neck and kicked him to the floor threatening to hang him if he didn't tell the truth choking he's Berg promise to show them where the rest of the donners money was. If they would spare his life he led them to a cache of silver pieces buried near the tents at Alder Creek these worth about two hundred seventy three dollars. Well over seven thousand dollars in today's money years later later. He's Berg admitted to burying the silver but he insisted he had done this for safekeeping with the intention of eventually delivering it to the surviving. Having daughters satisfied that they weren't going to turn up anything else at this god-forsaken camp. The fourth relief made their way eight back West with Louis Keys. Berg limping behind them. The only member of the fourth relief who treated keys Berg with any degree warmth was reason tucker. He allowed keys Berg to use some of his supplies as they made the return journey only a few months earlier. Her Tucker had escorted keys. Burg's wife along that very same trail. He knew that the man had some heart breaking news awaiting him on on the other side of the mountain but keys. Berg did not have to wait that long. During the Trek Keys Berg found a fireplace that had belonged to one of the previous parties thinking it was a good place to rest. He said about heating himself some coffee. The snow around the fire melted melted revealing bit of Calico fabric poking through curious cheeseburger dug into it and found the remains of his infant daughter. Ada Who Tucker had buried in that same spot almost two months earlier despite their animus towards him the fourth relief protected keys Berg like one of their own in an interview years later keys Berg credited one of them with saving living his life. I happen to be sitting in camp alone. One afternoon I was congratulating myself upon my escape from the mountains when I was startled startled by a sniffling growling noise and looking up. I saw a large grizzly bear only a few feet away. I knew I was too week to attempt to escape and so remained where I sat expecting every moment he would devour me keyes. Berg was startled the blast of a rifle. The fair fell over dead. Shot by William Foster when the fourth relief arrived. arrived at Johnson's ranch. On April Twenty Ninth Keys Berg was the last member of the Donner Party to cross the mountains of the eighty nine nine men and women who had begun the journey forty one had died. This death toll included all four of the Donner family adults adults. George Tamsin Jacob and Elizabeth two-thirds of the parties men and one third of the women and children the Only families that remained intact where the brains and the reads the rest had sustained horrible losses. The survivors survivors of the Donner Party. Who made it to California settled the wildland? They had fought so hard to reach James. Reid managed to acquire a large portion of land in the Santa Clara Valley. Though he was never tried for the murder of Jon Snyder James Reid remained bitter about about his own role in the Donner party disaster. He wrote in eighteen forty seven. Our misfortunes were the result of bad management. Had I remained with the company I would have had the whole of them over the mountains before the snow would have caught them and those who have got through have admitted committed this to be true. The orphan children of George and Tamsin Donner were taken in by other families. Including the reads Jacob Jacob. Donner's children remained orphans William Eddy. Who lost his whole family remarried and settled in Petaluma California and the Breen's settled? What would become San Benito county where they prospered as prominent members of the community though most of their neighbors hardly hardly knew what they had been through to get there but not all of the Donner Party survivors had happy endings? Louis Keys. Berg was reunited with his wife at Sutter's fort but his spoiled reputation followed him for the rest of his life when he arrived at Sutter's Fort Keys. Berg was called a murderer for the death of Thompson Donner. He brought legal action against William Fallon for slander. During the trial Fallon alleged keys Burg's involvement with no less than six murders including Tamsin Donner and and the Child George Foster and yet the jury declared keys Berg innocent. He was awarded one dollar in damages as some sources claim. That William Eddie tracked keys Berg Down in San Francisco and attended to kill him in retribution. For Eating Eddie Eddie Son James. Reid stopped him from doing so. The worst of the rumours that followed him or that he had enjoyed eating human meet at the Donner camp. He vehemently denied this but became a social pariah nonetheless every one of his business ventures failed this included a hotel that burned down and a brewery that flooded his wife and all but one of his daughters died before him. He died penniless and friendless in eighteen. Ninety five the last survivor of the Donner Party. Isabel Breen died on March twenty fifth nineteen thirty five at the age of eighty nine. She was one year old When their parents took her across the Sierra Nevada Mountains Lansford hastings the man who set the Donner Party on the path to failure and was arguably the reason for their horrible fate remained involved with their lives in the years that followed he worked with James Reid and donate to orphanages the Donner Children's stayed at but never expressed any remorse for the misleading information? He put in the emigrant's guide the California and Oregon and in fact his penchant for poorly thought out plans continued throughout the rest of his life. During the civil war. Hastings served it as a major in the confederate army after their defeat he set out to found a confederate colony. Brazil with the aim of writing the emigrant's Magritte's guide to Brazil. He died on route today. The Donner Party is remembered numbered as one of the most infamous disasters in the era of Western migration. Too many who grew up in California. The name Donner is synonymous honest with starvation cold and cannibalism. And even if you've never heard of them their name now adorns the very gary land killed almost half their group the lake were they wasted away with nothing but hope to keep them going now. Bears the name of its survivors and the gap between the mountains were so many of them perished from hunger and hypothermia is now no known as Donner Pass. Thanks for you're listening to survival. Join US next week. For a new episode you can find more episodes of survival and all other podcasts originals. For Free on spotify not only the spotify already. Have all your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all your favorite podcast originals like survival for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream survival on spotify. Just open the APP and type survival in the search bar and don't don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Survival arrival was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media. And as part of the podcast network it is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler sound design by Andy Weights with production assistance. By Ron Shapiro and Paul Moller additional production assistance by Maggie admire and Freddie Beckley. This episode Soda Survival was written by Robert Team Stra and stars Irma Blanco and Tim Johnson.

Louis Keys Berg Donner Party Thompson Donner George Donner starved camp Party Sutter Tucker Lake Camp Patrick Breen California Murphy Cabin Levine Murphy Donner camp Louis Keys James Tim Johnson Keys Berg Mrs Graves Graves Truckee Lake James F. Reid
Tug of War

This is Today

12:06 min | 3 months ago

Tug of War

"It is national tug of war day today so yeah i'll be pulling on a rope. The entire podcast really. I hope i win. This is today. Welcome to this. Is today the podcast that features the stories that make this day unique. It's friday february nineteenth. Twenty twenty one. I'm russ and here's what you need to know about today. First of all. no. I'm not going to be pulling on a rope the entire time. Sega break theater here but not going to be doing that. yes It is tug of war day. So technically i should be doing that You know the egyptians were actually like doing. The tug of war competitions way back when like thousands of years ago. They have some engravings on the walls of these pyramids that show people doing took so it's been around forever. It was actually an olympic event from nineteen hundred to nineteen twenty. Can you imagine just watching the olympics. Being tug of more. I don't know if that would be the most exciting thing to me. But okay They're trying to get it back into the olympics. In fact there is a whole organization Geared towards this the tug of war international foundation that's t w i f So what Tweets is trying to do. Well i'd mention that sounds weird Yeah anyway what tweet is trying to is Adopt anti doping rules in twenty twenty one and trying to get back into the mix. You know if you're going to get into the olympics. Maybe having the approval of an embassy would help a geek embassy perhaps One of the members of of the geek embassy on the phone with me regina mcmenemy. Hey regina hey so what do you think about tug of war going back into the olympics. I'm trying to visualize what it would look and lay alexa. So are there different weight classes. Where like you know are you pitted against the same weight as you and like weight of the rope like helping a rope that they're pulling on right. There's a lot of the have so many questions. And what did the outfits. Because i hate to say it. But as a fan of like a figure skating and the gymnastics. I'm always super interested. On what the what. The uniform cassia. That's that's a huge usa and not like non their chest or something. I don't roll up. Yeah i don't know what that uniform was ugly but it's sorry about the music. I didn't move fast enough there. We go yeah. I know i just. I don't know what that would kim. You've nevada. I guess you'd have to track uniform something you know and then like you always want to kind of think about what cheating might happen in at like sport right. So do they get like sticky. Give them are sticky stuff on their hands. That like what are what are the angles. There was actually i. So i went a little too deep into research as i sometimes do where i was looking into this tweet organization as they call themselves Which i think is a horrible name And they actually suspended. I think it was a german group because they put these things in their shoes. The shins polling. Yeah so you're right. That totally is possible cheating in this. And then there's the anti-doping thing that they just passed. Hopefully all right so happy. Play tug away with my dog game. She plays aright. So as i mentioned the other day we had you on game on girl is the podcast to go. Listen to to hear more of regina and that's available everywhere so do a little searching. You can listen to jeanne a little bit more all right. We'll be back with our events right up to this since you listen to this podcast. I'm pretty sure that you like documentaries. Yes you like science history technology. If you do well you definitely want to check out curiosity stream and you can do so by clicking the link in the description yes click the link in the description and you will have access to thousands of documentaries all on demand you can watch them anytime and anywhere. Just click on the link in the description. All right and welcome back. Let's start our events or today all right well on this day in eighteen. O seven former vice president of the united states and disney channel star. Aaron burr was arrested for treason wasn't murder. It was treason. Yeah i killed alexander hamilton and that gun duel but no it was treason That was actually put him behind bars. see what he attempted to do to start his own nation in between the united states and mexico. Now all of this is hearsay. Because we're not really sure exactly what he did and he was acquitted of the charges but see the problem was that we weren't really sure what he was against. And what he was four see. What he did was really. He talked less and he smiled. More i'm gonna stop talking and taking lyrics from hamilton before i get sued but you should just know that birth did go to jail at least for a little bit there in eighteen forty seven. The first group of rescuers for the donner party arrived a boy a little bit of a mess when they got there. You see there were eighty one people that were stranded at truckee lake in the sierras. And couple of them. Well they were murdered and used for food. I mean it was really cold. I i can't really justify this. I'm sorry donner party. If you're listening Forty five of them did get out alive so maybe they are listening to. The podcast died in around nine hundred thirty nine or so but yes The donner party The attempted to rescue them on this day. It'd been up there for quite some time. The whole rescue effort took about two months. It took five months the whole thing all together. fortunately only two people that eaten in that time. I guess we'll go with that in eighteen seventy eight on this day. Thomas edison patent the phonograph. Okay i feel like like every other podcasts. Or so i'm talking about thomas. Edison inventing something and yes. He invented out everything When you when you look at it On this day it was the phonograph. It's been you know everything we'll just going to say everything Five hundred and twelve patents worldwide in one thousand nine hundred ninety three patents in the united states so that guy was pretty darn busy You can see. They didn't have video games back then. So what else he was he gonna do couldn't spend his time on minecraft in nineteen forty two. Us president franklin telenor roosevelt started executive order nine zero six six this order allowed for the internment of japanese americans during world war two about one hundred and twenty thousand people. Us citizens were put into these concentration camps here in the united states. Twenty thousand dollars was given to them. with the passage of the civil liberties act of nineteen eighty-eight Basically this act gave them some reimbursement. It and said that this act was really filled with racial prejudice war hysteria and it represented a failure of political leadership. One point six billion dollars in payments Were paid out. This is a crazy story. i've talked about it a little bit before on the podcast. There are some great youtube video so that you can learn more. There's also a couple of websites out there. I just do a search for either executive order ninety sixty six or japanese internment in the united states. It's just a mess. When you see this it's really upsetting and something. I think that we should just watch to learn from so you know something like that just doesn't happen again. In one thousand nine hundred eighty five canned and bottled cherry coke came out. Actually remember this. It only came out into select cities and it came out into san francisco. And i remember getting excited about hearing about it and actually getting to taste one of those first bottles of cherry coke actually think can than i had but yes. It was amazing. I fell in love with a cherry coke for quite some time. It rolled out everywhere later that year over the summer tested back in nineteen eighty two at the world's fair. It became a top ten soda by the end of the year. And right now it's responsible for about six percent of coca cola sales and they've got all those different brands so that's pretty darn good as is the drink. In nineteen eighty seven. There was a television commercial that debuted. I don't talk a lot about television. Commercials debut in but this one was a anti-smoking head that aired it featured yul brenner and he had died two years prior from lung cancer and he said in the commercial that if i could take back all of that smoking would be not talking about my cancer right now. He recorded message and wanted that commercial. Put out there after his death to try to prevent people from taking up smoking all right. Let's look at our birthdays four today. Prince andrew is sixty one today. Haley duff is thirty. Six seal is fifty eight victoria. Justice is twenty eight. Millie bobby brown from stranger things. Seventeen jeff daniels and sixty six justine. Bateman is fifty five. That's your look at february nineteenth. Thanks for listening to this is today. We do our best to pull together all the correct information if we made a mistake and you heard it gets. You're super smart and we're super sorry. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and give us a five star if you think we deserve it. If you like to make sure that we cover something on a future episode let us know just got. This is today. Podcast dot com to make suggestions. Give us feedback and see our other. Speaking of those other podcasts. One we'll be coming out on monday morning more. Go check it out all right. I hope you enjoy learning about today. I'm russ and to you on monday.

olympics donner party regina mcmenemy united states truckee lake Sega russ regina Aaron burr gymnastics olympic franklin telenor roosevelt alexander hamilton disney channel jeanne nevada kim sierras Thomas edison