21 Burst results for "Tristan Harris"
"tristan harris" Discussed on Strength to Strength
"The immense possibilities that carry it was so diverse and it's only grown more diverse as time has gone on to where now we carried something in our pockets. That's more powerful than some of the first supercomputers even then later in two thousand two thousand seven. A man named steve jobs launches. The iphone initially. It seemed like a fairly benign endeavors. So really trying to eliminate the need for two devices that people who carry it around an ipod for music than others who carried around a phone for contacting people in what he was trying to do is to bring those two together and that's simply what he wanted to do. Pretty pretty simple. But that but just a few years prior facebook had been watched at this point so this was two thousand four and at this point it was simply a social networking platform. Only for harvard. College students. Entertainment opened up to other ivy league institutions eventually went public to where anybody could create an account on facebook. But what what really happened. Then in the late two thousands was kind of laying the groundwork for the so the rise of social media platforms. And we've only seen this plethora of social media platforms developed sense like it's just been an exponential growth. Two thousand twelve was pivotal year for facebook and the recent that the iphone was important words because it gave facebook the opportunity to monetize their mobile app and by monitoring this means they began showing advertisements to their account holders so they launched this in march of two thousand twelve by october. The revenues from these advertisements for facebook had already taken up fourteen percent of their total revenues. Fourteen percent in a matter of months and it's only grown since then at check recently. And i think it was just a few years ago. It was at ninety two percent so what this tells us is that social media platforms facebook in particular but many others recognize that if they can get our eyes on to the screen if they can capture our attention and the longer. They can do that the more money they can make. I've heard it said that Silicon valley is not programming apps. The programming people. They're working very hard to understand. Human nature the way humans interact with the digital world and are using this information to create more sticky applications more sticky devices and so forth and then throughout the two thousand ten We've seen just a proliferation of various specifically engineered devices and applications and these these various things like we've seen this exponential growth in the digital world and the sharp rise in recent years. Tristan harris noted in a two thousand seventeen ted. That much of the conversation around advancing technology has centered on the point at which it overtakes human strength so in other words when technology start to replace us. When does it start doing the things that we do. And that we we essentially step in the background so this has been a big conversation. The artificial intelligence world and so forth but few people have thought about a much earlier point on this time. Line when technology overtakes or override human weakness so it what technology has started to do especially the social media realm but technologies the digital realm in general even has has really hacked our our psyche. It's it's exploited our ability to be manipulated to to make us feel certain emotions to To believe certain ideologies it's attacked our ability to take control of our time our attention. It's it's hacked into our ability to believe certain things it's taken away our control of time and really. There's been a lot of unintended consequences and these are largely the things that contribute to the overwhelm that we experience so one of the one of the interesting things about the digital realm.
"tristan harris" Discussed on Bloomberg Radio New York
"Which is what it does. What are your biggest fears? Trust on right now. I mean, you point out, it's it's not just about the president. He's got plenty of followers who are still on these platforms and followers who are angry. You know what are your biggest? What do you most afraid of? At this moment about the social dilemma? Um, I mean, I'm Simply afraid of this, driving up even more polarization. So right now it to 71 million people in this country, it looks like a digital active war has happened. And I worry about what response that will generate if it's not immediately pulled back into a Democratic conversation. What is the way to double to govern the digital world that we're all participating in? You know, we don't elect who works at Twitter. Or who has the executive ranks the Twitter or who's on the trusted safety teams at Twitter or Facebook, for that matter. And we need to have some kind of democratic process and you get into conversations about the global process because what would be democratically elected to govern? The U. S political sphere is different than the Myanmar or the Germany, political sphere or Ethiopia, where Facebook is, you know, sort of spawning a second genocide over there now. S so I think this is really just a need for accelerating this Comerci issue. But what do humane and democratic platforms they're gonna become. Our digital habitats are digital environments. What does it mean for them to serve the public interest? The one thing we do know is they can't have a business model based on manipulating our attention and putting us into our narrow cold factories that drive us crazy. But assuming that the business model isn't gonna change before inauguration day, you know what do you think happens in a post trump world? What does what do these social networks look like? And how do they change? You know, I think we're all finding this out, right? We've many people have been talking for a long time about you know, Dee platform ng Trump and people were wondering what would the consequences be? I don't think anyone has played out. It's a very complex system. Um, it's led to, I think much more polarization monitoring, you know, the left and the rights reaction to all of this. I worry about conflicts. You know, I worry about how do we actually, um, not taken action that only drives up a heightened counter response. I think there's too much Unilateral action that people think is going to solve the problem but actually only drives up the level of escalation on the other side on I'm looking at models for truth and reconciliation and things that can actually de escalate and I think what we need to be looking at, and I don't think anybody knows what exactly happens. I do know it again with this business model that unless we wake up from this 10 year trance that has worked our psyche and worked our collective psyche to be divided against itself, like digital psychosis in which our minds Are divided against its own its own self. We're not going to solve it, but I think the social Club is an incredible step for people to all be aware of, so we have a common ground about why we lost common ground. All right. Well, Tristan, you've offered many possible social solutions. Digital Constitution. A change in the business models, you know, always appreciate your Very reasoned and thoughtful views here. Tristan Harris of the Center for Humane Technology. Thank you so very much. Okay, coming up How people get their news.
"tristan harris" Discussed on Emma & Tom's PGCE Podcast
"Whoever you whoever you are your trusted colleagues time for our shorts slots and i think for the first time in history. We're going to dig all of our shorts. Lots out of a single source which is related to what. We've just been talking about the fact that we have name checked him already. The article is about tristen harris. Who am i mentioned earlier on in the episode. And it's it's from the atlantic in its from a few years ago now called the binge breaker it talks about his journey from being on the inside of one of the companies to realizing kind of with some discomfort that some of the stuff that was going on that was perhaps not the most ethical. It's interesting isn't it. Because google always had this thing called. Don't be evil wasn't there motto. Don't the evil. And now we were saying earlier before we started recording any of these companies that offer things that are extensively free clearly. It costs money. Supervised the sentences therefore they've got to be getting money from somewhere and apple. That's going to be advertising in order for advertising to work. They need your attention. They need you to be using whatever it is. Is there and once you understand that it's kind of blindingly obvious isn't it. But it's surprising. How kind of non obvious is until it gets pointed out and that's fast tristan harris's point is no all this kind of extended interview. You need to be aware of that so that you can take some action absolutely and if you go into take the time to read the article i would also recommend today earlier on the social dilemmas and i think our something to try that comes from that and you can decide how controlled you want to make. This is the simple one might be one that we recommend it a long time ago which is to switch off you notification budgets. Those little red dots on your phone but another one that tom recommended to me that i must admit i haven't i haven't tried any great length which is to switch phones gray scale so that all those colors on enticing. Un make is bland as he possibly can something. That tristan harris himself does that is reported in the article. We just recommended is to bury those apps that are really addicted deep in folders and sort of far distant screens on your smartphone device. So that you're not going to be tempted and something else i recommend doing. I think i'm going to try this myself in line. With some of the research came out at christie's book about lectures and destructing devices can be trying to really focus in lectures even if you're an asynchronous online lecture on the program. Try one where you've got your phone with you on on whether that distracts you purely by being on the desk or whether you actually go into it to try having it with you during the lecture. And maybe if he wants to be uber kind of investigator you could record. How many times it distracts you and then try another without having it all and do the same thing tally up and see if there's difference. Yeah i mean on the subject of wellbeing. I'm an oversee interest in harris is basically saying kind of you know. Put your phone down to an awful the rest of it to improve your well being. I suppose the thing is. We can't be an extremist about this stuff. I know that we've kind of said. Twitter is great. Sometimes and other times said delete twitter. You know that was my wellbeing. Nick couple of episodes ago. Delete you to break. When i was on a break. Yeah i think don't beat yourself up..
"tristan harris" Discussed on Everyday Buddhism: Making Everyday Better
"Just to have a smaller maybe episode <hes> just me. . Thinking out loud with you <hes>, , and this one is about <hes> I call it the social dilemma and otherness in I. Don't . know if any of you watched <hes> the Netflix documentary called the social dilemma. . <hes> I watched it not too long ago and it was disturbing at it was as it was intended to be <hes> I won't pretend to be a movie reviewer that's not my thing. . But I. . Thought it was very good and I thought it brought a ton of points about social media <hes>. . In clearer view <hes> for those of us who may have. . been aware of this but not to the extent that it actually was true. . But to put my reviewer had on though I thought that the acting out of the personalized a algorithms were Eliza. . Bit of a stretch but it did break up the talking heads which might have been boring for people after a while although I personally like talking head documentaries. . But. . The point of this. . <hes> episode is, , is about the key theme of the documentary and it's the way our minds are manipulated by social media platforms and the manipulation, , and how the manipulation was intentional by the big tech players or the company's <hes> the money behind the big tech. . The twist though is that the intentional manipulation was aimed at our attention. . To get us to buy things but the super efficiency of the algorithms designed to do that. . Was Not anticipated. . They didn't think it was going to be good as it was then the negative consequences on human thinking and behavior was also nad intended. . So it was sort of like creating a Frankenstein and I think one of the one of the people who reviewed on that one of the tech players who were reviewed actually said it was like creating a Frankenstein. . The buying in quote unquote into distorted ideas about the world ourselves and each other that have become nearly ubiquitous sense. . The pandemic Allah the rise of Cunanan and stand startling panoply of conspiracy theory and times been great awakening groups that have grown to amazing proportions to the point of moving beyond their virtual groups and into the world to act out demonstrations, , hate speech and even violence. . Now, the , documentary features the narratives of several Silicon Valley defectors talking to the camera. . These young executives, , designers and software engineers all left lucrative an influential positions for a variety of reasons around sort of this theme. . One of 'EM's ethical concerns about addictive media others were political concerns over the polarization of society and the spread of fake news or just general misgivings of the sort expressed by Tristan Harris formerly designed ethicist at Google who said in the movie. . Quote when you look around. . When you look when you look around you, , it feels like the world is going crazy. . Is this normal or have we fallen under some spell unquote? ? After watching this documentary I continued to reflect about how it really does feel like the world is going crazy. . I also listened to many podcasts discussing these phenomena <hes> the polarization, , the the the rise in conspiracy theory thinking <hes> end times beliefs <hes>. . anti-semitism of. . Great Awakenings <hes> you know all this stuff and how How to address it, , how to classify what it is and how to fix
The Social Dilemma and Otherness
"Just to have a smaller maybe episode just me. Thinking out loud with you and this one is about I call it the social dilemma and otherness in I. Don't know if any of you watched the Netflix documentary called the social dilemma. I watched it not too long ago and it was disturbing at it was as it was intended to be I won't pretend to be a movie reviewer that's not my thing. But I. Thought it was very good and I thought it brought a ton of points about social media In clearer view for those of us who may have. been aware of this but not to the extent that it actually was true. But to put my reviewer had on though I thought that the acting out of the personalized a algorithms were Eliza. Bit of a stretch but it did break up the talking heads which might have been boring for people after a while although I personally like talking head documentaries. But. The point of this. episode is, is about the key theme of the documentary and it's the way our minds are manipulated by social media platforms and the manipulation, and how the manipulation was intentional by the big tech players or the company's the money behind the big tech. The twist though is that the intentional manipulation was aimed at our attention. To get us to buy things but the super efficiency of the algorithms designed to do that. Was Not anticipated. They didn't think it was going to be good as it was then the negative consequences on human thinking and behavior was also nad intended. So it was sort of like creating a Frankenstein and I think one of the one of the people who reviewed on that one of the tech players who were reviewed actually said it was like creating a Frankenstein. The buying in quote unquote into distorted ideas about the world ourselves and each other that have become nearly ubiquitous sense. The pandemic Allah the rise of Cunanan and stand startling panoply of conspiracy theory and times been great awakening groups that have grown to amazing proportions to the point of moving beyond their virtual groups and into the world to act out demonstrations, hate speech and even violence. Now, the documentary features the narratives of several Silicon Valley defectors talking to the camera. These young executives, designers and software engineers all left lucrative an influential positions for a variety of reasons around sort of this theme. One of 'EM's ethical concerns about addictive media others were political concerns over the polarization of society and the spread of fake news or just general misgivings of the sort expressed by Tristan Harris formerly designed ethicist at Google who said in the movie. Quote when you look around. When you look when you look around you, it feels like the world is going crazy. Is this normal or have we fallen under some spell unquote? After watching this documentary I continued to reflect about how it really does feel like the world is going crazy. I also listened to many podcasts discussing these phenomena the polarization, the the the rise in conspiracy theory thinking end times beliefs anti-semitism of. Great Awakenings you know all this stuff and how How to address it, how to classify what it is and how to fix
"tristan harris" Discussed on Surrounded by Idiots Radio Podcast
"From classic philosophers or ethicists that are involved in technology Silicon Valley business is can the classic ethical Traditions were dead. In the tech age. Can you go back and look at like my Foundation is virtue ethics, which is the stoic philosophy stuff or logotherapy. Can you go back and use those building blocks in order to maintain some level of Ethics in this new tech industry? And I personally I don't think you can because they try to do that already. I mean Tristan Harris tried to do that. They're pretty much just blew him off. So the whole movement now in the philosopher field, is there battling back and forth in regards to a need for new norms and virtue that specifically address the online civic-mindedness because it's not regulated and it's a no-holds-barred thing and you get some people who have really bad intentions or country. He go based intentions and they know how to do things. They'll take that and then they able to scam people or they'll throw out disinformation because the best way from the cult leaders perspective to get people to follow them is for them to question everything in their life that they believed. Then he can sit there and come along and say yes. Well see you don't know this. You don't know this and join this but I can tell you really what's the truth and I can fortify that with my own facts off so you can see why we have so many issues right now because that's happening all over the place politically as well as different culture groups. So the ultimate call right now is for a new Global Information ethics, and I know you could probably are starting to not off your even on your bike rider your walk but I and I don't want to get way into this cuz there's other stuff you can go into like dispatch has your Ethics in terms of transparency for the stuff. The bottom line is is the I'll tell you this there's a lot to philosophy there's a lot to academics that is self Maspeth..
"tristan harris" Discussed on KQED Radio
"To it Harris believes that the unmitigated race for our attention has multiple and profound negative consequences shortened attention spans increase mental health issues mass narcissism and other effects are among what Harris calls human downgrading on April twenty ninth twenty twenty Tristan Harris spoke with Jake aboard via video conference under orders to shelter in place during the covert nineteen pandemic join us now for a conversation with Tristan Harris and Jake aboard hello good afternoon good evening my name's Jake ward I'm the technology correspond for NBC news and it is my great pleasure today to be with Tristan Harris normally you know I would be up together on the state of the city Goldstine stage and San Francisco and unfortunate course on the sort of says we're not allowed to do that and so I'm gonna say some prison things of him and then you're all welcome to apply but we won't hear you but feel free to do it anyway so Tristan Harris is you know being a service known as the conscience of Silicon Valley that's what they're going to call him their profile he you know sort of went through and and arc of moving into the the center of sort of Silicon Valley at a time when the whole notion of sort of persuasion had had really started to take take flight in the industry and in twenty thirteen he circulated a manifesto that got passed on to ten people and from there to ten people about why attention has sort of become the product of the industry and and why that's a problem how we can sort of reclaim that he then went on to have found a couple different organizations time well spent and most recently the center for humane technology where he which he co founded and now runs so let's start with you know let let's just first start at the beginning of your journey into this topic right I mean you you went to Stanford and as I understand it was and you know you the company you were in went on to be the founders of of major companies are you you were you know you work with Mike Krieger from Instagram a project to work with Kevin Systrom who also founded Instagram right all these different people and you sort of your of the generation that came up into this world to create a lot of the companies that you now spend so much time looking at analyzing criticizing so tell us a little about that tells a lot about what what was it like at Stanford at that time and and what was the thinking about persuasion about human attention as we understood it as a product so I was at Stanford at the beginning of so much of all this going down we were there since my sophomore year that Facebook arrives on our campus think faith that Facebook was sever was the third school that Facebook was actually launched on and you know I watch this sort of growth of it and I watched how many of my friends actually works there on their first office down in Palo alto I knew the culture of the people that made it and I had a cohort of people around me that were at Stanford that later became founders of some of the companies including Mike Krieger and Kevin Systrom at Instagram were the founders there and Mike and I actually were part of the lab at Stanford called the persuasive technology lab this professor named BJ Fogg that taught about how would we apply everything we know about the psychology of persuasion to technology so when you think about that you think persuasion what we what we talking about it was everything from clicker training for dogs so how do you train a dog with click click reward click click no reward you're getting closer getting further away click a reinforcement training to the psychology of Las Vegas slot machines to you know social psychology Robert shall Jeannie all of the stuff is is known to people in the field it's basically just the field of marketing which is the kind of gradual unveiling of the meat tricks like code that runs the human experience what actually is persuasive to us and why it's a very big question if you really think about persuasion and at a high level and for me personally speaking this linked with my background as a kid I was a magician and so I have this lifelong fascination with how the human mind is hijacked or influenced by things that it doesn't see that or not immediately apparent and that while we are capable of putting them on the moon and humans on the moon and while we are capable of building atomic weapons and building seven forty sevens out of nothing we also have these fairly simple vulnerabilities and how our minds work and I found it fascinating that there's a huge difference between the matter how brilliant you are and what how many layers of PH dis you have it doesn't change the fact that the underlying psychological weaknesses are or you know bias sees our limits of the mind are the same for everyone which is why a magician walks up to you they don't say now hold on a second do you have five PhD then I can't actually do these tricks with you because you'll know how they work notice magicians don't do that they work on all human minds because it's about this other fact about perception so knowing that I was a lobbyist at this this persuasive technology lab and Mike Krieger and I'm the founder of Instagram actually work together on it on a little project called send the sunshine which is about using persuasive technology for good but the main point was I saw over time as I left that lab and you know went on to start my own start up company in the industry and watched many of my friends too so I started to get very disenchanted because increasingly it was less and less about actually making things that would make the world better and help people even though I was all of our regional intentions and Mike and Kevin and I were actually part of these early groups that were envisioning this positive social change we can act with technology it was actually a lot of people in that cohort that ended up you know being very interested in in positive social change and what ended up happening that was that at the end of the day no matter what you want to do for the world positive social change or not you have to start by getting people's attention and increasingly this is about in two thousand ten eleven twelve thirteen everyone I knew in the tech industry have kind of gotten caught in this race for who had more clever ways of getting attention so path that just came out Dave Morin I had just launched that and they started notifying you when you looked at someone's photo so if I looked at your photo it would tell you if we send you a notification saying that I haven't looked at it and so they were racing in this increasing up ratcheting of what can I do to kind of dangled bananas in front of your monkey brain to get you to come back to these apps we now call the race to the bottom of the brain stem and unfortunately that attention economy is literally just the world that's the collective consciousness of the human psyche and the problem is that you know now these three to five technology companies kind of run the entire human attention cycle there holding the collective consciousness in their hands and it's led to kind of in this unmitigated race for attention as lead to addiction polarization children's mental health issues teenage suicide social comparison mass narcissism distraction polar is it you know learned helplessness there's so many different psychological externalities much like you know fossil fuels extracting that leads to the externalities of climate change extracting human attention and if human beings leads to the side of social climate change that we call human downgrading which is the sort of collection of a fax of shortening attention spans more addiction more mental health issues more social isolation I never has that been more vivid in apparent for us then with the corona virus epidemic because you know we're all glued to our screens for many more hours today than we were before there's so many things on us but let's go back to who you were at that time because I think now you know like so I I was when I was interviewed for the job I now have it N. B. C. a member they were they're asking you know as you go to New York can you run this gauntlet of of people who run the network and they ask you these various questions about how you would do your job and one was how will you explain to us that the racing you know how how will we understand the culture that has produced Facebook and the attention economy the rest of it and one of the things one of the big questions they had was how is it that people who are so smart and so well educated and come up with such good intentions wind up creating the systems that seem to endanger human agency may even endanger democracy that's what I'm wondering is help us understand I'm just because not like what was your internal landscape going into something like the persuasion Lavrov going into that world and the landscape that as you understood of other people going into that I mean you know this having good intentions but understanding that persuasion is the thing how does that work like what were you like do you think then when they came out that stuff yeah well I guess I was probably about twenty two years old it was just starting my master's degree in human computer interaction at Stanford under my adviser Terry Winograd you know I think that when you start first start learning about persuasion there's a lot of different ways people can relate to it I actually think community marketing in the the more perverse and dark sides of it it tracks power people who are interested in power I think because if you're actually kind of uncovering the the code of the human mind like it it is a form of power now it's power the people ideally would use for good you know explaining again that this this app that Mike Krieger and I worked on called send the sunshine was actually about noticing that people have seasonal affective depression disorder and what if there was an app called from the sunshine this is before the iPhone existed by the way there's a concept app that would know that your zip code in my zip code were both in places that had might have could have bad weather for five days in a row and years of code didn't and so what if it texted you and said Hey your friend Tristan has had bad weather do you want to send him a photo of the sunshine to cheer him up let him know you're thinking about you so you could use persuasion in a way that is you know positive but then the question becomes will who's to say what's positive and how would we know and what happens when there's so much power the you can persuade anyone of anything in fact the final class at the persuasive technology lab was about the future and ethics of persuasive technology and one of the groups came up with this vision of the future where you would have the perfect persuadable profile of each human being on earth so I would know that you Jacob are highly persuaded by let's say the kind of clothing that the person wears or whether our institutions impressive said if I say that I went to the Stanford persuasive tech lab is that more persuasive to you or if I said you know actually your friend you know I I went to the same lab is your friend Susan because Susan's very persuasive to you each of us are persuaded by invisibly different things peels to authority appeals to friends and what would happen in a dystopian world where you had a perfect profile of each person and then that was used for political purposes and of course that's exactly what Cambridge analytica is when we were discussing this back in two thousand and six and it's been discussed throughout history in Philip K. Dick's novels and many other places but I think that you know people didn't really appraiser how bad it could be when the various purposes it could be used for and I think inside of products just developing you know likes and you know very full schedule reinforcement like you pull to refresh and see how many more likes I got I don't think anybody at the company's actually intended for that to act.
"tristan harris" Discussed on KQED Radio
"Zero three eight six and this is the national conversation with All Things Considered from NPR news with millions of cars off the road you'd think the air quality would be better and unfortunately it's not that simple an NPR investigation finds that recent air pollution declines aren't as big as you might think turns out there are lots of other sources of air pollution I think that this really brings into clear view in a way that we've never seen before the choices that we have to make as a society tomorrow on morning edition from NPR news morning edition airs from three AM to nine AM here on KQED public radio next time on city arts and lectures we consider the manipulative power of technology Tristan Harris will talk to Jake aboard about the profound and negative effects of tech companies unmitigated race for our attention from shortened attention spans increase mental health issues is the online world lawless more a structural change possible that's next time on city arts and lectures here on KQED city arts and lectures comes on at eight o'clock tonight then at nine stay with us for an hour of news programming from BBC world service and at ten o'clock on forum with Michael Krasny V. author Sarah Kendzior is the guest in the first hour of tonight's rebroadcast the title of her book is hiding in plain sight the invention of Donald Trump in the erosion of America and then at eleven o'clock we will listen back to this more informed discussion about how the pandemic has reshaped the future of retail that's the forum rebroadcasts Michel Franzen is your host it comes on tonight at.
Sleepwalkers at CES
"Secure I'd never been to Las Vegas before which is the difference between us. I've Been Vegas gets too many times. I could tell and didn't feel good to be in good hands with an old vegas handler. You one of the new things. Though for me was slots which I don't normally play play. I think subconsciously I was thinking about what Tristan Harris talked about in the first season of sleep walker former Google lower. Who told us that? Instagram is actually supposed to feel a lot like slot machine or the Tristan studied at the Stanford persuasion lab and told us about how casino architecture has influenced the development of highly addictive tape products like instagram. Interesting for me to actually see Vegas and the bright lights and the impossibility of escape firsthand not to mention the replicas of if the empire state building the canals of Venice Coliseum of Rome you know I was lucky enough to see the Seattle space needle for the first time. I didn't know that it was in Las Vegas. But doesn't we were there. We were there for C.. Es The consumer electronics show in this episode. Were actually going to talk about some of the coolest things we saw there. But we're going to focus focused more on the innovations that are at the intersection of technology and humanity rather than talk about you know infamous toilet. Paper dispensers run of the big reasons we went is because we you were invited by wave maker which is an agency part of WPP to do an interview on stage alive. PODCAST so to speak with Matt Monahan. The HATTON who is head of product at publishing and publishing is part of the Washington Post Orcas also an interesting case of a and action because they're forward thinking in terms of increasing the visibility of content through personalization. An optimizing everything from headlines to photo selection all using machine learning and those are things that really matter for journalists and readers. Yeah and this use of. Ai stands out to me because it provides a solution to real problem. How do you get eyeballs on the right content when there's just so much that said the issue of personalization does raise questions about what happens when machine thought to know US better than we know ourselves not to mention and what are the appropriate limits of how companies use AI and data about us? Yeah I can definitely streamline processes by detecting patterns that you know human beings cannot see or it can allow you to scale like tag hundreds of thousands of articles that again human beings just cannot do so greater efficiency is on one side of the spectrum and extremely attractive to people but on the other side. You have issues of taking humans out of the loop like the blackbox problem and authenticity in a world of deep fake so a question for businesses and users of technology is sort of when does Ai. Add to our experience experience and when does it maybe hold us back or take advantage of us for example from seeing news stories that we should see but maybe the algorithm doesn't think we want want to see it or that we won't click on it right in the old days. When everyone received a print newspaper on their doorstep? Everyone had the same front page in the same headlines Nowadays holidays when you log onto a news website or on social media everybody has a different version of the world and that is obviously positive for driving engagement but may not be so positive in terms of having conversations with the same facts about the same stories equally. We have to ask. Do we want articles where the headlines been written by Algorithm. ooh Do we prefer headlines written person. And that's something we talked about with Matt because all actually tested headline writing technology. Let's talk to Matt. Lucas says let's cut to the chase are really came out of a collaboration trying to better understand what actual journalists needed it. Can you talk a little bit more at the very beginning. You know we were just trying to solve problems for ourselves. Seven or eight years ago. We knew he had to make some pretty fundamental transformation to the post and to really prepare for the digital future. We didn't have the right tools to do it. And we couldn't really find the right tools on the market either. What we did was spent a lot of the journalist and the editor is trying to figure out what it was that make their lives easier? It's trying to figure out. How do you make journalists work better publish faster? What are the little things you can do? Inside of IT products make it easier easier for them to write stories or publish from there about four years ago when we started evolving into a commercial offering. Today we're running hundreds of websites around the world breath about twenty different countries. We're running companies like BP their internal communications as well as some of the marketing. We're running large broadcasters and all their live video and beauty and of course I was still running a lot of newspapers and news publishers. Like the post and many others around the world looking in publishing you know that. Ai Artificial intelligence in headlines MHM and there was a story in the Financial Times last year. We said forty percent of startups us. No whatsoever uh-huh so I bet it's probably higher so when we talk about using a Ohio when you talk about what we actually mean so it can span the range of technologies analogies from something like machine learning which is basically a way to use algorithms to take large sets of data in either uncover patterns in it or try to model away to predict a certain outcome. The two technologies like computer vision which you can use to look at images or video and extract information about them by recognizing patterns and trying to identify objects inside of them and so a lot of those technologies than when you put them together conform. Some really interesting workflows that you know in the past. You might have had us humans to do that. You can actually do much more simple automatically. was there a the titular business challenge or challenge the Washington Post that. You couldn't have sold if you hadn't been using AI. Any story that we right on Washington Post. We're mapping to a set of I two or three hundred topics maybe an example of one of those might be like congressional policy or narcotics crime. What you're trying to do is say if I look at all this content? I'm not just pulling specific words. I'm actually trying to figure out. What is this content about? What is the fundamental concept of this so you pick a set of articles? Let's say one hundred two thousand news articles in the case this example for the post and I see us. Humans of Micro Labor to do this training set and the goal is you're building an algorithm Based on a set of real data and so the humans are going there and saying this article. Yeah this is about congressional policy. Why because I know it is I read it? That's what it's about. This one's about narcotics crime time and this one's about soccer and so you train all these articles against that algorithm until finally the algorithm is basically sufficiently advanced to predict a new article that you put into it and determine it outcome with the same high probability of success that you're able to with human training now every time. A journalist Saves Saves publishes the story we're able to Parse over all the contents inside that story then we can predict the strength at which it's likely to belong to that topic. How do you create a better user experience in your case news experience for an individual consumer with the medicine? You can do a lot of interesting things we can figure out that. Hey this is something that they're interested in reading. Perhaps they'd like to read more in. It actually serves the signal into a recommendation Algorithms from your perspective where can businesses sort of harness the power of machine learning to really hone in on who their customer is and what that customer wants. We want to deliver more content to our readers leaders. Who Want to help them? Find more content that we've created. We have about nine hundred journalists at the Washington Post we write something like three or four hundred original stories today. So there's is a Lotta content there to get readers to all different content and to have them continue moving through your constant. You spent a lot of money to produce is really challenging. And so that's a great use case for personalization Shen but where you can make it really come alive is by having more sophisticated. Meditated more sophisticated information about that content. That's more likely to bring readers to it. And so that's where these machine learning remodels really come in handy. I think part of what's fun about this conversation is there's a lot of cases out there where average users you know. They imagine they see something like that. You see the boots on instagram. And you think Oh my God he's companies. Must you know indiscernible for magic right. There must be some crazy model out there doing this. And perhaps is there is but in a lot of ways you know. Your users aren't necessarily as aware of the advertising ecosystem data ecosystem and how these things tied together between platforms incites and I think as like industry professionals. We always kind of underestimate that fact and so the net effect is that users are completely surprised by this. I think you must be doing something completely on her to achieve it. When in fact you know it could be really simple data sharing and so the reason? I think that's important than when you do. Bill Technologies that actually utilize some these more sophisticated methods to build data sets. You have to be aware that your users you know first of all your users aren't going to necessarily anticipate the outcomes you can create and if you don't do a good job on the product side of making sure that you really think through the use case and how you're leveraging technology solve it you can generate unexpected outcomes. You know there was the example of the retailer who produced advertising flyers that were able to predict folks who are pregnant right. Even if some of those folks didn't necessarily know that themselves or hadn't shared it with with their family or their spouses.
"tristan harris" Discussed on The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss
"In. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln jobs. It's a new year. Twenty twenty time clarity. At time. When lots of folks are thinking about personal professional growth and in many cases the growth of their own businesses big goals necessitating good? Planning and good hires. If that's you Lincoln can help you find the right people who can set you up for a strong year. Lincoln jobs screens candidates with hard and soft skills. You're looking for you can hire the right person quickly. How is it? The person's hired every second with Lincoln. And why is it. The company's at rated Lincoln jobs the number one platform for delivering quality tires collaboration creativity vivid adaptability linked in simply has more and better data. They can look beyond pure word skills and put your job post in front of qualified candidates who match. It's your business requirements perfectly. That's how went in. Make sure that your job post is seen by the people you want to hire people the skills vacations and interests that will help you. You and your business grow so find the right person for your business. Today with Lincoln jobs you can pay what you want and get the first fifty dollars off. Just visit Lincoln dot com slash Tim again. THAT'S LINCOLN DOT com slash Tim to get fifty dollars off of your first job. Post terms and conditions. Apply this episode. It is brought to you by brave the next generation web browser. I love brave. And if you haven't heard about it here is skinny. Brave was built by team. Privacy focused performance oriented pioneers of the Web. And I do mean pioneers. Brave was co founded by Brendan. O'Brien Bondi Brendan was previously previously. The CO founder of Mazzola Fire Fox and the creator of Java script brave now has more than ten million monthly active users. And I'm one of them. Why why why would I use break? Because brave gives you unmet speed security and privacy and when I say unmatched in the difference is hard to believe. And here's why everytime you download webpage when you go to any webpage our not just downloading the text and images. You're also downloading whip junk. This includes trackers and scripts that run in the background slowing in your downloading wasting your time by an average of five seconds per page while also draining your battery faster and costing you extra data charges. There is a way to have the best experience what can offer and that is by using. Brave brave is up to six times faster than other browsers and it's truly incredible. How much faster everything is? I have used brave for instance to get on airplane Wi fi when other browsers crashed. I have used it to watch youtube videos. When it's just suspended in loading forever on on other browsers it's not subtle little? There's a huge difference other browsers act like a vacuum cleaner for your data. So this is on the security privacy side using profiled and track across the web so what you might ask well data collected about us to manipulate both your decisions and countrywide decisions like elections and if the one that listening to my episode with Tristan Harris Brave is a way to protect yourself and remove the surveillance. Economy Breath also includes options which I use. I use quite often such as private window with tore for those seeking advanced privacy and safety. This browser feels intuitive. It's super easy to use. You can import your bookmarks with one. Click and all. Your favorite chrome extensions are also available with brave and it doesn't have to be either or you can use multiple browsers for different things now. Listeners listeners of this show the Tim Ferriss show can easily upgrade their browser for free. And all you have to do is go to brave dot com forward slash tim. That's brave. BRAVE DOT com slash. Tim I use brave all the time and I strongly suggest that you at least test it out so go to breathe dot com for slash. Tim and give it a shot doc..
"tristan harris" Discussed on The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss
"And that that is a is a helpful thing if you think about it. Your phone is like a slot machine. It's buzzing in the same ambiguous way every time which forces you to say Oh. I wonder if that could be that thing I was looking thing for and then that's the excuse to get sucked in and then you get sucked into the rest of the things so in general you want to minimize your your use of of you know neat. You're you're meeting even check the thing in the first place and that's what that helps do and so you can do that by going your notifications and unfortunately apple doesn't let you split up all of your your your major categories of notifications. I mean this is why we push on technology companies and this is one way apple could be like a better government better. Central Bank is if they enable able in the next version of the phone a thing that showed you basically here are the top three kinds of notifications that you're getting like. Here's a continent map of the major five categories of notifications. Do you want to set up a unique buzz signature for each of these five distinguish them or sable them or disabled right exactly so I mean but both in the whole point is we should have a whole. This is like the environmental movement right. It's like imagine there's this. This is. The thing we're trying to catalyze is that if everybody everybody treated human attention as something sacred that we're trying to minimize our footprint on it as opposed to maximize how much we manipulated take extract out of your nervous system. that's the fundamental change if treated if everything was treating your attention as something sacred that like we want to move and change the minimal number of pixels on your screen. We want the minimum number of vibrations to ever occur. We want the minimal number of psychological anxiety concerns. I mean this is another category. People will talk about is even when you're not looking at the phone the executive loops of concerns that are looping in your mind as a result of the ten minutes ago when you're using your phone like did that person get back to me. Oh I wonder if it got new likes on that the thing I wonder if Almanac get the address that event you know if they sent that yet those ways in which the phones could silence those concerns by for example letting US set set up a like. Let's say when you go on do not disturb for two hours it said. Is there any give you the option to say anyone who if you heard from them in the next two to three hours hours you would want it to make special noise for and you could mark that out and that way you can you can now not use the phone and have complete like a separation ratio from it because you have the certainty won't miss something important because that fear that we could miss something. Important is a really powerful that even when you go on do not disturb or her plane mode people we'll still go back to the phones on the check so I think people just don't really realize the extent to which they're deeper level nervous system and habits for reaching for this thing have been hijacked hijacked and this is about kind of Unh- hijacking your whole nervous system not just you know the the phone works but kind of alleviating and in releasing your whole nervous the system from its deep connection to these expectations totally and it's it's it's the effect on the the nervous system right like the actual biological cost is is something that is hard to fully take stock of until it's removed and it's it's huge and I at least once every six months trying to go a few weeks without any use of of social media and I find it. I find it useful. I find it fun. I I enjoy connecting with people through twitter and polling and there are some fantastic uses of social media and I enjoy looking at it pretty pictures on Instagram of cabins that I'm sure I will never visit and things like that but the there there is a a a like neurobiological cost and one one way one thing that I do that. The people might also consider as if if you feel like you absolutely can't survive without social media or maybe that type of sentiment intimate disguised as I need this for my career in Abyan seaways or I need this for my company. ABC ways there are many instances this where I will schedule using something like buffer war edgar or one of these other tools for several weeks so I'll batch my taking photographs those or or whatever it might be have those scheduled for a few weeks and I give myself then a vacation from any type of active monitoring or responding to social media and the feeling at the tail end of that. Let's call it a week or two weeks. Most pronounced after week is not that this is. GonNa Sound really maybe ridiculous but it is not that dissimilar from a seven days silent retreat. It is such a D. loading phase that it's it's it's. It's sounds unbelievable until you actually try. Try It. Totally I mean I think we're speaking to in general is something that we would call humane technology design pattern. which is you know the there are going to be moments when we think of thing we need to do and the inability to do at that moment leads us to have to open up twitter in right that thing or send that email to ourselves or whatever and it it you know it if we can't do that when we have to? leave it on our nervous system. There's a looping concern so now for the rest of your day until you get to a computer or whatever until you do. It's like looking at you like don't forget this ain't over and there's a way in which if technology were truly respecting affecting you know the fact that we're better off offloading these things into somewhere else where it's not taxing nervous system it could be universal design nine pattern that you could enter something you. WanNa do in schedule when you want it to happen and not do it immediately. Whether it's sending an email to someone or sitting you know the text message when you're I think the message thing works on iphone. You send a message to someone while you're on airplane mode but it won't just say. Oh send this when you get back. I just won't send it and IT forces it to be on. Can you go back this yeah imagine if it said it okay. When do you want this thing to send like baked into the way I message works right into slash like Gino offline right it. Would it would automatically send when you were connected as opposed to force you to go in. Click on this exclamation mark and confirm that you want to reset. It's like yeah. Do you want to resent it because clearly didn't deliver the first time this should be pretty easy to logically deduce and and you have to have the certainty that it's GonNa work because if you don't have the certainty even if it does work like ninety percent of the time like you're gonNA generate that extra layer of like anxious time light like just imagine this anxious time lend plopped down down into your nervous system so that for the next two hours does this extra three percent that your nervous system is just taxed by the fact that you're not sure for sure of this thing sent like you know. Gino's supposed supposed to send it because it was an offline mode and they promise that they will but if you don't have that that certainty that we have to have that kind of confidence and I think this is is actually one of the simplest things that technology do there's a lot of uncertainty about stuff just doesn't work. Consistently you know a lot of the lot of the the stress and the background radiation of anxiety would go down if we just had more consistency in the way that we believed that these things would would work as opposed to some of the ways that they they are periodically broken another one. I wanted to mention that I do in terms of creating a fortress or firewall of attention actually haven't talked about this one but if you turn on inaccessibility settings on a Mac the zoom feature if you ever use this but you can zoom in to a certain part of the the screen and I do it where you hold down the control key and then you just use two fingers zoom in and zoom out but what I do is what I'm trying to write for example I easily get distracted by any other pixels that happened to pop into the screen like it really affects me hyper sensitive and so when I'm doing any writing hiding oldest zoom into that text field so it actually occupies the full fifteen inches of my Mac book pro screen and it helps me really focus and using things like that if you just imagined that untrusting you're literally trying to conserve the number of pixels that change in an unexpected way because that will hijack and make it easier to forget or otherwise detour you from something that you're doing and all of us again like currently on us to do this is like this extra cost that we all have to pay the no these checks and listen to these broadcasting fiddle with these settings one hundred times but the whole premise of this kind of work is imagine humane and regenerative world where this is how it works by default called where everything is trying to minimize its footprint on our attention and our all the defaulter set to make it as seamless as possible to do it the way that you would want it to work and to not have double think and think oh maybe the Senate got us again. Just that certainty that I can actually have peace of mind. I can actually do not disturb per day because I know that you know out of office messages or I'm going to respond for two days to e mail was built into the native functioning of how email worked on every email after messaging APP right we don't we don't get that chance to it. They don't get what that doesn't have a mode that says hey I wanna Wanna go on vacation for a week and this is the message I wanNA send to the people that are in this class of contacts like that could be baked into the way that messaging works the ability disconnect without missing something important and that's the the premise of what has to happen is a deeper redesign that treats human attention as sacred and that treats our cognition as something that we need to conserve for the areas we most needed in the big decisions. We have to make our lives. that's what the Dow me too and I suppose part of that is people developing the the awareness of the value of their attention so that they are perhaps willing to pay for things that preserve and that attention and treated as sacred by design right exactly attention is a scarce resource. I mean it is as certainly a limited resource. I know we only have perhaps a handful of minutes left and I'd love to ask you as someone who I would. I would imagine has read quite a few books in your day and you mentioned you've. You've mentioned a few you mentioned metaphors. We live by you mentioned amusing ourselves to death. Are there any particular books that you have gifted often to other people or ten to recommend most often or have recommended a lot to other. People didn't even do any come to mind. It's a great question. you know. Neil Postman in general media thinker about some of the topics we've discussed today is just excellent. I mean he foresaw so many of the problems in his books amusing ourselves to death and another one by him is called technology which also is about how when culture surrenders technology and especially the quantification of metrics and sat scores time spent GDP in these kinds of things he covers in that book highly recommend there's another book called them finite and Infinite Games Myskina this one yes. I do buy cars. Yes James Carson religious studies professor. Do you interview him. No no I haven't I. I would certainly be open into it. It's a it's a fascinating fascinating book now and that's just a general philosophy one about life and how out of I don't know navigate more improvisational way and ask like what what game I really playing in an interaction like playing for a finite game outcome to win the game or am. I playing to keep playing which has a lot of overlaps with improvisation and things like that yeah. That's a that's a fantastic book. People can get a very good taste of it by going to good it reads and looking at highlighted portions for finite infant in infinite gains also highly recommended by Stewart brand and a lot of other a lot of other really really folks. I respect a whole lot before of sorry Redmond and one more if you're into podcasts but someone who I've learned a lot from in terms of the civilization level dynamics around in a finite I games operating on a infinite growth games operating on a finite playing field and the kind of fundamental problems of capitalism. I recommend looking at Daniel Schmuck Burger. Um There's a future.
"tristan harris" Discussed on The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss
"Have you know mass empowerment like mass coordinated action that we can all take and feel optimistic about all the all the progress we're making and all the things we can do next so that's that's kind of the project. Here is like we are trapped in this one. Paleolithic meet suit. That's got these you know these kinds of Ben's and contortions that that Ben Reality in a way that can be hacked and we can also use those bends and contortions in a way that gives us the most empowerment and if we ever needed though superpower as its right now. This is a perfect segue segway I have I have a question for you. That is personalized and I'm GONNA. I'M GONNA start by finishing the quote that I ended up only reading. Partially it's a big brother. This is from Chuck Palahniuk. Big Brother isn't watching this is very close to what you were just saying with Huxley. He singing dancing. He's pulling rabbits out of a hat big brothers busy holding your attention every moment you're awake. He's making sure always distracted. He's making sure fully absorbed making sure your imagination weather's until it is useful as your appendix and and that would be a problem both on an individual level and certainly a collective level and there's a quote of yours that was in the headaches Brussels from getting a location right presentation. I spend a lot of my time thinking about how how to spend my time and I love for you to talk about what you do on a personal level to whether it's a firewall your attention or twos don't damage distraction that every every economic force seems to want to impose on you and there's on one hand there's defeating beating skynet and then there's the day to day life of John Connor. If you're John Connor like what what what are some of the things that you do on a day to day or week Komo two week basis to defend against some of these some of these forces some of these yes some of these technologies it's funny when you mentioned this John Connor and both living personal and defeating Skynet just realizing you saying that that that's basically both both my life is both of those things that got every single day of my life is how do we defeat skynet whether it's on Capitol Hill and just coming back from that last week or you know the personal level of of just look being being being effective so I'm well rested so I can do that. you know. It's really hard ain't part of why I worked on these topics for so long. I mean that I had talking in two thousand fourteen was about time well spent and about the power of persuasive technology to make us distracted which is kind of how this all started was. I found myself self so easily distracted like I hated seeing happened over and over again like you get one of these emails saying you've been tagged in the photo or someone commented helmeted mentioned you in a comment like this is appealing to really deep instincts your the protagonist of the show called your life and when someone tags even a photo. It's like something about Amine Social Privilege Online. What did they say. Is it good. Is it bad I have to see right now and it's really powerful stuff and the reason that I work on this is because I actually feel more sensitive instigative than other people are I feel certainly dairy sensitive to these forces so it's why to get so important to print to protect them and protect against them and I think think of it like we have to build these like EXO skeletons for our Paleolithic brains. I mean the military takes this stuff seriously right with military combat and the kind of flight instrumentation you see in the aircraft military aircraft or something like that. It's all about managing attention like with crazy levels of discipline in science and research about how how do you build that exoskeleton that gives us that level of focus and and thinking about through the right questions and not the wrong questions and being well rested and you know being able to stay up for many any hours and focused on one single task and all that so now to concretely answer your question. What are the things that we do. you know I first of all like I said I struggle It's hard especially now because defeating Skynet comes with a lot of email and communications and it's it's like being part of a running a social movement for how to fix these things and we have a nonprofit for those who don't know called the Center for humane technology refocus on this and we get emailed by every major world government and you know people who are dying to fix these problems we're trying to be of assistance and catalyzing that change so it comes with a ton of work and INCEN- social obligation allegation to get back to people and but some things that I've found have been helpful. I mean one thing I've been doing since I was in. College is since we're mentioning doing these tips like the gray scale tip which just to make sure your audience knows what that is the idea there is when when your phone has colorful rewards it. It's invisibly addictive. It's like showing the chimpanzee part of your brain a banana every single time you you you look at the color of the icons and all that stuff and so one thing you can do is is you can go into and I think probably listen the comments but it's something like I think it's general and then you've got into settings APP on your iphone and then general and then if you scroll scrolled to accessibility in school the bottom. There's this thing let's you triple. Click to set your phone gray scale and so you said why so gray scale it just strips out those color other awards so now when you look at your phone it doesn't have that just a little bit less luster and psychological animation of your nervous system. and we helped popularize that it's mostly also for the social effects when you do that people say your phones gray scale. Why is that happening and then lets you tell the story about why you would do this and the attention economy and if you heard about time well spent that's kind of why we did that. Quick quick quick addendum on that the triple click can turn a gray scale and back to color output yet. I'll put that in the show notes disappoint people can find that at Tim blog for such podcast the the another benefit of that which is which is one way to sell it is or an additional way to sell it is that it increases battery life also a quite substantially increases battery life and it makes it harder to find your sure. I cons which might view as a bug but it's a feature. If you're trying to use social media less yeah that speaks to a secondary thing that I've recommended for for a while which is if they give it. Your phone is you know. There's a filter or other. It's it's unfiltered so it accepts both unconscious mindless uses of it uh-huh and conscious mindful uses of it and it can't tell the difference between Zombie out of anxiety reaching for it to just check again the thing you already checked ten seconds ago and when you're actually saying no no no. I really need to find actions to that party I'm going to I need to find directions right now right. I can't tell you don't WanNa put up these arbitrary speed bumps or roadblocks between you and what she wants generically because then you can't distinguish between those two uses so another thing you can do is if you basically take off all of your apps from your home screen rain almost all of them except for the recommend we call them the tool so tools or your quick in and out utilities things like calendar things like lifter after Uber things like messages that just let you quickly do something and then you're done so those are fine to have in your home screen but he move everything else off the home screen and instead train yourself to pull down from the top on an iphone and type like I wanNA launch male. I WANNA launch instagram or I WANNA launch twitter because if you type you have to be making more of a conscious choice that's great so thing but it's like you're you're. You're putting like a a band. Pass filter filter between you and your phone. That's only accepting conscious uses and rejecting mindless uses. That's another thing you can do another thing that I do want to be really militant about it. If you think about one of the problems with the way that phones vibrate it's gotten so bad that we now experience this thing called. Phantom vibrations where we believe that our phone is vibrated rated even when it hasn't and were were simulated so often that we're we're just constantly you know reading it orbits to feel actually. Viren we check it again just in case and it's just a mess and one of the things that would help alleviate this is if you have a custom vibration signature for different kinds of notifications so for example.
"tristan harris" Discussed on The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss
"You would think like Oh yeah we just we pay attention all thirty but actually if you look closely your mind is actually paying attention to a subset for whatever reason there's a subset of people who you you find more interesting second question was our second prompt was look around the room and now notice the people debt for whatever reason you don't like like you don't even know why you don't like them. You just or you're you're just not interested to connect with them. You you would not want to be with them or talk to them. Just notice that there's some people have already selected that you don't WanNa talk to it. Isn't that interesting like what about them. has you feeling like I don't even WanNa talk to them. And then the third heard prompt was look around the room and notice all the people. You didn't even notice they're like the people in between the faces who do you mind completely skips over and you don't even notice that you're doing that and it's a really profound exercise a lot some other steps to it but it it really shows as you that your mind is living inside of this selection filter that is pre selecting certain bits of information to reach your conscious awareness and then hiding lots of others also a polarizing you against other people or sources of information and you don't even know why you're just living inside of that hammer that twenty to treat everything like a male but you don't even know the direction action of the hammer and that there are lots of nails yeah definitely and I was also as your as you're talking about this these selection filters. I rent and the twenty two mutable laws of marketing for people who want to look at the power of words through different. Lens and this this this came up for me. Actually I should say this person. Frank Luntz came up for me so he's come up for me in a few different scenarios one a friend of mine very very very actually mutual friend of ours but I won't name by by name certainly very socially liberal guy recommended recommended. I think it's words that work words words that work yeah. It's not what they what you said. It's what people here is the by Frank Luntz and this and he came up recently because I was watching vice the movie about Dick Cheney and Franklin's for those people who don't know I'm reading directly from wikipedia here is is the American political liberal consultant pollster and Public Opinion Guru best known for developing talking points and other messaging for various Republican causes but and I'll skip a bunch of it just to give a few few examples he advocate use of crafted to produce a desired effect including use of the term death tax instead of estate tax and climate change instead of global warming those are really powerful vocabulary re frames really really powerful. Cossiga the implication the implications of those re frames totally and this is where were we chat about about frank and the power of words but the the Meta feel free to to jump in with with anything. You'd like to say but yeah I mean I it's IT'S I. I love bringing this up. I mean I hope that again is to Meta trip for for for people listening to this much focus on language but it does shape everything I mean again. If people think climate change versus global warming the whole point is well climate's always changing right. There's nothing to worry about. 'cause it's always changing some neutral statement. another one that's like frank is he's often not to be on the right and there's this. Guy George Lake off. WHO's on the left who wrote a book called Metaphors we live by and he's like a academic linguist who has talked about the power of grounding metaphors so granting that for is if you think about something like the nation as a family so invisibly when we think about the nation it's structured at least in English as part of the family so we don't send our sons and daughters to war. We don't want those missiles in our backyard right. You know if there's a third one onto. I forgot shoot our founding fathers. Our founding fathers said that isn't there are fathers really they really are fathers so invisibly yeah we have this baked into our language at a structural level that that organizes almost like a geometry of meaning about how we see the nation. Those are our sons and daughters. Those are our founding fathers. This is our backyard being our property you know and it conjures up a whole bunch of assumptions about how we see the world that then structure you know entire political beliefs about whether to go to war and all this kind of stuff and so as you've said it's like language is profoundly profoundly shaping not just like our own mental lives consequences and what you see on meditation retreat but you know world history and whether or not we tackle something like climate climate change where we go to war with. Iraq these are really really big deals and I. I think that we have to gain literacy for our minds me. I actually think I mean this is kind at the essence of our work. Now is that you know fundamentally. Were at this point. Where if we can't see our own psychological you know what's the words if we can't see the way our minds are structuring information and we are just simply as you said before you know like run by them like they're the automatic automatic processes that runs ahead of our choices then it's already done like already checkmate because we're already you know being led by things that don't produce choice making that averts the kind of catastrophes that I think that we we all want to avert and I think this is my co-founder of the Senate? Streaming technology is a Raskin says the way to win. The final war is to make peace with ourselves that this is the architecture like this is how we work and the only way we're going to you know either you get over ourselves and take those risks to to make the choices we make in our own lines is by understanding ourselves better and the only way we're. GonNa solve. Civilizations problems is by you know gaining any an understanding for the things that would stand in our way I agree and we're GONNA. We are going to segue technology very very briefly. I want to you again. Encourage people to as a way to become more familiar with the words that you are using the language you're using which is basically this you. I can think of it as the software that you're running in in a sense which is really important like you might want to inspect that code. I E is to take a look at Byron. Katie's the work and the twenty one day no complaint experiment is also a great way by focusing on one particular category of language to become Meta aware more broadly of the what the voice in your head is actually telling you all day long and technology. Let's talk about how you first came to know. BJ Fog that maybe this maybe this is a place to start and then we can we can leapfrog all over the place from there who is b.j fog shirt and do you know BJ by the way just curious I do. I haven't event spent time with them. In years but there was a period of time when I was living in mountain view that we had a chance to spend a decent amount of time together and and we we have spent time together and we just have actually recently started emailing. Oko Yeah yeah so. BJ is a psychology professor at Stanford and he ran something I think continues to run something called the Stanford Persuasive Technology Lab that basically applies everything we we know about the psychology of persuasion to technology and basically you're asking the question in the lab how can technology persuade people's attitudes beliefs and behaviors offers. and a lot of alumni have come out of this lab. I mean I was project partners with the CO founder of Instagram Krieger. you know a lot of people went and work linked in and facebook and the early social media companies because you know this was the perfect set of tools to apply to the design technology but in in in the lobbying steady teddy everything from clicker training for dogs like how do you know what data train the dog to do the behaviors you want to not the ones you don't want we don't shoot the dog by Karen Prior Amazing amazing yeah. Oh yes I do yeah yeah I do too. I recommend to everyone yeah. It's funny I mean. It's I programmed myself to to enjoy boxing and kickboxing 'cause they. Just get a smoothie right afterwards as Pavlovian conditioning click click train in the form of a smoothie and it's it you learn that you learn social psychological dynamics Albert Bell Dini. I mean a lot of the marketing stuff that you have already pointed out to too. Many of your listeners sure but it's really just a study again again of the code. This is like delving into the code of the human mind and this is what we find persuasive and I you know this is in two thousand six so it's the year before or the iphones the iphone hasn't hasn't even come out yet and we had a class on persuasion through video and through mobile apps and the founder of Instagram and I before for him at a neat thing close to the idea for instagram. We worked on applying these principles for good people get wrong about the lab. I think it was the sort of diabolical diabolical training ground full psychological manipulation tech leaders or something like that and it wasn't that way at all it was actually a really powerful you know don't three hours once a week a deep dive into this this woman and asking question. How would you use it for good so that the founder of Instagram I worked on this thing called. Send the sunshine where you know we thought we would if we could persuade people in a way that alleviated depression but using our social psychology and so this is again before the iphone so imagine kinda thought ought to be thinking back then but the idea was imagine there's some server that knows that there's two friends who are friends and they have both their phone numbers and it tracks. Zip Code of one phone number and realizes that you've you've been in a place with bad weather for six days in a row and because we know from seasonal affective depression disorder that's a big deal just having bad weather for a while can kind of put put someone down and so what if upon hitting that that condition it then sends a text message through something like Twila to your before Tokyo to and sends it to your friend Mike and says hey would you would you take a photo of the sunshine and send it to your friend. Don has had bad weather and the ideas we just be sending each other the sunshine and this was a really nice idea behind the leading alleviating depression there's all sorts of positive applications like that we thought of around helping people go to the gym and meet their goals and BJ has as nice model for.
"tristan harris" Discussed on The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss
"I mean it's an amazing tool and you know the release the technology away because I think technology is this sort of false belief factory like it just generates you know all all of these false beliefs there's moment by moment and the premise of of her work and doing this process is so that you don't identify with your thoughts. I mean the fourth question she asked switches. which is who would you be out thought? It's not what would happen in epic. You didn't think he's inconsiderate. It's who would you be so it's an identity level question and that's that's actually is really important because when you're doing blue transformation work you do identity level work. It's much more persuasive. If you feel on a link to the stuff I know about Russia's Russia's influence campaign in the two thousand sixteen elections. I mean a lot of it was identity. Level work like we are African. Americans and Hillary doesn't care about us. That was the message that Russia when after I is because identity level propaganda and identity politics it's the deepest level of psychological influence work now in the Byron Katie percents. She's doing it to try to empower people to overcome the ways that a their brain lies to them to see them in the other sense. It can be used obviously eight to manipulate people but instead. I don't know have you done nor linguistic programming. You know I I read. I have not done any training at least not directly but beginning in high school which is I think when Tony Robbins really put an LP on the main stage in some respects became fascinated by the prospect aspect or the implications as described by Tony Robinson his first book of NLP. Could you describe that for people who don't know what it is. Yeah I mean I. I'm not an expert but but I have taken some some workshops in it. I mean more linguistic programming is essentially a study of how language and thought and meaning are basically each of us have a map in our own brain of how we see reality. We're not actually directly in touch with the reality and from us. We're living through this mediated map. nope that you know based on word choices we use it shapes the reality that we that we have it's used in hypnosis is actually the basis for Eric Sonja hypnosis and you know how you what kind of language choices to make and how you can deepen people's experience or alleviate people's experience like a simple example just to make concrete. Is something like thank you think of a person that you love and see their see their facing your in your mind's eye and then turn up the colors so like just this make the colors more vivid. Do you feel more of the love or do you feel less love. When you turn up the colors how about if you bring the image and closer so bring it up way close right in front of you and turn up the colors you know and then just playing just noticing that even as you do this you get different kinds of feelings and experiences versus for example? If you turn down the colors does he make gray scale. What if you make it small move very far away. These are all ways of playing with you know human cognition and experience and anyway when you do this kind of work. There's used in counseling psychological counseling well and when you when you work with people on uh on a counseling level if you can do identity level transformation work where for example if if you ask someone the phrase. Are you an athlete. You know I mean if I ask you art. Would you say you're an athlete. When I'm not eating doughnuts and sitting all day I would like to think of myself as an ethics. I used to be an athlete would be my real answer. I'd say I used to be an athlete. Louis says that like you sort of nervous system. If you say the phrase like I I am an I used to be an athlete. Does that feel like the most accurate thing for you it. Does I think Athlete Competitive Athlete said that's I would say I used to be an icing right there you go. That's your map right. It's like athlete for you. Means Competitive Athlete than some kind of professional sense which what's interesting. I mean a lot of people would probably answer that question no right and yet a lot of people. I mean I might answer that question no but do exercise do you do you go to the gym to you. I do boxing kickboxing stuff for fun. just fitness classes and you know. I wouldn't put myself in the category of athlete but just noticed that that's just you know whether I've fallen the sign of sight of yes or no to that question has a really big implications for how I see myself right definitely and and it's totally arbitrary whether or not I call myself myself as part of the category of I am athlete versus. I'm not and what would make an athlete like what are the criteria will go now. I'm inspecting the map inside my brain that I've I've. I've been visibly constructed some set of rules about when you officially qualify for being an athlete and when you don't and it's all artificial it's all arbitrary it's just coming from our own mind happening happening to organize these rules and obligations which are self constructed and it's through the NLP type stuff or Byron Katie stuff that you can actually play with all this and you realize that you're living in this rectal kind of hall of mirrors in your mind that makes us think or believe all these things that are just kind of distortion self constructed out of invisible parts of our brain and waking up is the process by which we can you know shatter some gossip and see more clearly yon waking up I mean if if feel free to to to offer a counterpoint it seems to me that waking up here is at least in part simply becoming aware of capitule processes right yeah it's kind of like stepping out of the movie itself in which you're the lead actor or actress and stepping back into the audience audience and watching becoming the observer of your own behavior and what you were saying earlier about thoughts and beliefs and how how much conviction we can have snap judgment reminds me of something that BJ Miller who's a doctor and hospice care physician has been on the podcast helped something thousand people to die his answer to the question. I often ask ask which is what would you put on a billboard is he actually got from a bumper stickers. I don't know the original attribution but it's dope leave everything that you think right which I A- and the I think about language a lot because when we're talking about language to some extent we're talking find out labels and timetables for talking about conceptual overlays that we're putting on top of our century put right so it's like how you're constructing reality and when you look at something I we don't have to go into right now but if people search for the twenty one day no complaint experiment there is a Wanna say pastor might be reverend will bow in might be Bowen. Bmw Yen who began doing an experiment with his congregation in which which they would wear a rubber band or wristband that was elastic and they would they attempted to twenty one days without complaining. There are parameters amador's which were mostly language based for what constituted a complaint and if you complain you switch your wrists and start your twenty one day clock over again and and the the the effects on people who completed the twenty one days or even halfway on quality the of life on their thinking in the Lens through which they've looked at reality was so profound and if you really look at the nitty gritty of it it's it's training and awareness of the the statements in your mind and the statements act. US just like Byron Katie's the work in exactly exactly I mean in essence I mean it's like this is why not I don't WanNa switch in the technology stuff at least not yet but the the attention economy is beneath all other economies like the psychology like the if you had a you know an amplifier voice output for all of the thoughts running through our heads I mean this. This is what constitutes our inner lives this the this is the soundtrack. This is the things that were repeating invisibly. We don't even notice that we're repeating because it's almost doesn't have audio but immediately. I mean I I've done. I know you have done lots of meditation on a seven day meditation retreat I once did that's what I was most surprised by was just how quickly these next thoughts would come up and how quickly I was tempted to believe them and with you know the whole like wherever you go there you are like the same patterns of thoughts would come up like the same name self-doubt at the same self criticism you know. I don't want this to sound the Dole for listeners because I know that when people describe these things from a distance it doesn't sound it's interesting is profound but your to your point about language ears making me think I remember where I first encounter worked him. which was or at least it was one of the early recommendations you made at the four hour workweek? Go about the twenty two mutable laws of marketing yes and which is also was a profound book for for me and the the example of marketing all about using language to manipulate perception and the fact that your mind organizes information particular ways and I remember one core thing in that book is just the way that our our minds create kind of ladders of you know in competition like invisible categories like safety which is the number one safest car in the world for the most safe Carl Bobo Great. What's the second safest car in the world and you realize your mind blink. It's because your mind doesn't even Organize Information Pass Hassle number. One is all based on the slots. What's the fastest car in the world is the safest car in the world and you know I think it's the same thing in our own lives that invisibly the way we construct an athlete or not. I mean these. Are It's just this again. This is a structure of identity belief meaning that makes up and constitutes you know our wellbeing what choices we make whether we dare to take those risks with dare to jump off a cliff whether we look at the world's problems in the face the psychology is everything and it doesn't seem important if you haven't looked inside which is also fascinating that people can spend their whole lives. Not even you know ah looking looking in hearing what the words that keep showing up in our brains are Um. I didn't do my first meditation retreat I think until I was thirty two beat me. I did mind just a few years ago so I was probably thirty nine or forty and for those people who want a little comedic relief one of the terms that one of the coordinators used. I don't know if it was Jack Cornfield himself aw there at spirit rock and it may have been one of the other teachers but they joked about VIP pasta vendettas where people in the room would become so preoccupied tried with like the person ten feet away who's coughing too often or things like shuffling too often as the noisy jacket with Zipper. Eh becomes this sort of obsessive focus which happens all the time in daily life. It's not as obvious it's totally. It's it's funny you mentioned this because you know when you're meditation meditation retreat you're in silence for days and what I find fascinating is the way that for whatever reason you just kind of your mind locks onto people and you start making judgments about like you think that a person over there oh they just think this look at the way that they started themselves food quietly like they're just a slob or whatever the thing that comes up and then what's funny is like. I don't know if you experienced this but in the last day of my tissue retreat obviously we had this little we start finally talk to each other and you knew who people are and you realize just how off base you're you you know and and these invisible the how quickly our mind jumps to conclusions about people for whom we've literally we have never talked. We've never inspected the contents of their mind. Just we obsessed with it. Reminds me of another attention exercise. They did it at burning man once. That was really powerful. Actually if you're ever in a group setting thing is a super meta mind kind of podcast interview. Hopefully find this do conceptual and on strike but it's actually really fun stuff. I mean our attention is so profoundly. Hundley happening without US really realizing it but this this exercise I did your remember people thirty people and you're walking around in silence and then you you kinda stand at the edge and you're led by a facilitator to I look around the room so they are looking at all the people and you look at it says let's say like so. I just look around the room mm-hmm and notice who you have noticed like notice that there's certain people certain faces that you've gone that draw a lot mortgage attention than other other people like right like an enormous thirty people..
"tristan harris" Discussed on The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss
"What's it called again. Think it's wherever you go there. You are yes something like that. The judge a book title send John is a friend and you know it's the point. Is that you we repeat our same mental habits everywhere. We go so you know the in in so many ways that are often visible to us. We don't notice the consistency of a kind of a structure to the way our minds happened to process information or the way we think about what to do with our time or the way that we value things or we sort things all those processes that are sitting inside of us. You know happening all the time often invisible and not available for introspection and they basically run our whole life which is why they say like. Oh media going meditation retreat and they'll go find myself Bali but then you find that you know and as I know from your meditation experience with you know the monkey mind. It's like we just have these recurring processes that follow us everywhere everywhere and I think if you can't see them then they run your life and then we're kind of like a Tommy John's where robots are living according to the previous set ah constraints and the extent to which we have choices the extent to which we see those patterns as far as techniques to to see them I mean I think that's tricky. Have you ever done the work of Byron Katie. I have I I've find the a number of her one sheets sort of these one page sh a worksheet prompt to be very helpful takes a little getting used to it can seem very strange and nonsensical at first but I think if you're willing to force yourself to do the thought exercise of controlling the the beliefs Italy statements that you take is true. It's it's super valuable could you could you describe if if you've done it how how you've done it. It sounds super abstract for those people haven't seen it but she's basically just come up with a set of four questions. You can ask of any moment in your life that causes stress because usually what's happening is you're. You're creating that stress for your own mind and you just can't see it yet so I I kind of think about it to link it to the magic metaphor that our brains are living inside. It's twenty four seven magic trick. which is that whatever thought pops into our mind? We believe it. You don't don't not believe it. We just we automatically step into it and we see the world through that thought through the assumptions of that thought and essentially what what her four questions do is they let us see the exact opposite of that belief which then questioned lex you not take your beliefs in your thoughts so seriously and there's a great parody with with meditation but essentially eight something like I don't for example. You're driving there. You are and then some guy in a red corvette like cuts you off and you're like. I don't know something something like that. Guy Is an asshole or something like that right and you're convinced every bone in your body every bit of your nervous system. Just you know for sure. This sky is impatient. He's you know inconsiderate. all all of these touches rush into your mind and you have utter certainty about your our experience and who this other person's right let alone the fact. You don't know if this person is rushing to go get their wife at WHO's at the hospital because something's wrong. I mean you don't know right so that four questions are okay that person you know. That guy is inconsiderate. The first question is is that true that guy inconsiderate and you have to like pause and said there there you are in the car looking at this person say that guys in continuous not true okay second question is usually it to reinforce the and loosen up. Maybe the beliefs Abed which is can you be absolutely sure that it's true that that guy is inconsiderate. You realized I know I I can't in fact. I just thought that the moment that he you know step in Iran in front of me. Get to the third question which is okay. What happens happens. what do I what how do I react. What images come to mind. How do I feel how do I relate to the world. How do I relate to him. When I believe the thought that guy's inconsiderate what what what happened an answer would be something like I see him as naive. I see him as thoughtless I see my i. I don't care about him. I want him to be you know moved off the face of the earth. I I want that car on my way. Get angry my my body. I feel you know all these things right the entire. You're trying to basically list the ecology of just with that. One belief in that one moment at that guy is inconsiderate. Does your whole nervous system so it's like a full body scan kind of full belief scan of what that does and you sort of see oh my God just by believing that one thought it's totally transformed my entire experience in that moment with reality. I am now seeing rally a totally different way and usually in a more distorted disconnected not centered not calm not not connected way and the fourth question Russian is once you realize the kind of absurdity of that ecology of beliefs is who would I be in that moment without the thought. Eh that that guy's inconsiderate and so there he is he crosses into he cuts over right in front of me but without the thought that guy isn't considerate. Maybe be at something like I have curiosity about what happened. Why did he do that. you know whatever you you get that ecology and then the last step is to list the opposites of the belief relief so instead of that guy's inconsiderate one opposite is that guy is very considerate or he is considerate it and you you try to find evidence. Is there any way in which that could be true and in that moment prior to doing this process. You were convinced that this guy I just was absolutely inconsiderate but as after you've done this for questions you think is there any evidence for him being considerate well what if he's on the way to the hospital to meet you know his wife who just who you just you know got is is is in labor or something from being pregnant and he realized that he could be the most considerate person you know in that way or another opposite to he's inconsiderate could be. I am inconsiderate and the evidence there would be that I'm in considered the fact that I don't know the ecology of this other person's life life and I rapidly jump to conclusions so what this process does and I feel like Damien go through it for so long but it it it shows you something fundamental about the ways that our mind mind trap us in almost like a permanent fix set of glasses that temporarily occupy the way we see the world and make meaning and when you see that you just stop taking your thoughts and your beliefs quite so seriously and you realize that even in those moments when you're stressed in your convinced. It's because the world really is you. You know doing that thing that this is you off it. Lets you see maybe I'm actually doing this for myself and that also gains increases responsibility because that means that now and we're responsible for our own experience as opposed to you know the world is constantly terrorizing us with situations. Thank you very much for that. overview on so long that was really good. That was really good. I I spent two days with Byron Katie and a small group and for people who are listening ah I walk confessed something that someone listening might also experience which is when I was first given this exercise and did did it as related to different situations. I had a lot of resistance just the day to yet stuck. It struck me as semantic tail chasing or highly abstract and when you dig into it if you give it a chance as as as a thought exercise it's it's it can be incredibly valuable. I mean some of the transformations that I witnessed mist in the room with people who had long standing beliefs about say a family member which were which were completely crippling had paralyzed a family situation. I was was really remarkable and you. You mentioned the three questions here. Is it true. Can you absolutely no it's true. How do you react what happens. When you believe that thought and who would you be without that thought a couple of a couple of points that were really valuable to me or questions to ask sort of as a subsection under how do you react what happens when you believe that thought one of the subsets of that that Byron and Byron Katie has on the websites just the work dot com and you can file this for free is beauty to any obsessions or addictions begin to appear when you believe that thought I think it's a really really good one really important you mentioned Lee into this. Do you go to the coffee shop to drink a coffee not because you're overwhelmed worried about not knowing what to do right and then that likely triggers a whole new set of physical sensations sensations which trigger a whole set of sort of emotional and thought responses which you might blame on the circumstances of two hours before in fact you just took down two hundred milligrams of caffeine four minutes right so like facto levels of running away from anxiety doug running away from anxiety creates an experience that that's an addiction that then creates more anxiety that we then run away from it we spend our whole day clicking between facebook and email facebook and email and then you're like quarter might Dago exactly the last thing for now that I'd like to say about this because I'm really glad you brought it up is that the the portion of creating the opposites is where I had the most resistance and the for instance that person is is very considerate or I am in considerate and so on and there are a whole bunch of different ways that you can you can turn these sentences around the only way I could really get through the exercise was is to say if I had a gun against my head and having to come up with three hypothetical cases where this could be true. Whatever the the permutation tation is what would they be and it's really powerful and and and I wanna be Labor the point but I do encourage everybody to check it out and and try it out. I'm really glad you brought it up. Yeah I mean it's I totally appreciate what you're saying not to dwell so much on on her work even though it actually does he has been impactful for. I think probably other things we may talk about. Is You just you just realize the way that the mind so quickly steps into some new believe with utter certainty you know just to your point like when you find these opposites like well. Maybe I'm not considering. Maybe that person is so considerate. Sometimes that guy is inconsiderate like he actually just wasn't looking and he's not trying to rush to save his wife and whatever else right I mean there's definitely an argument you could make that he was being inconsiderate and it's not meant to you deny facts about reality about someone else's objective state but I think what it does overall is. It makes you realize that we live in utter certainty about a world that's highly uncertain and that whenever stress comes about through that process we might be able to down regulate a lot of that stress by just not taking our thoughts and beliefs quite so seriously really..
"tristan harris" Discussed on The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss
"Hello Boys and girls is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss. Show where does my job each and every episode to interview World Class Performers or people who are exceptionally good at what they do domain experts who can speak to the subtleties of a given subject industry or skill and my guest today a lot of bases. His name is Tristan Harris at Tristan Harris. TRS A. N. H. A. R. S. on Twitter Rolling Stone has named him one of the twenty five people shaping the World Tristan was featured in fortunes two thousand eighteen forty under forty list for his work on reforming technology and the Atlantic has called him the closest thing silicon valley has to a conscience formerly design ethicist at Google. He is a world renowned expert on how technology steers are decisions just on his spent nearly his entire life studying subtle psychological forces from early beginnings as is a childhood magician we talked quite a bit about this and also his study of pickpocketing and other fascinating domains that I'm very very interested into working with the Stanford persuasive technology lab end to his role as CEO of after which was acquired by Google has briefed heads of state technology companies CEOS and members of Congress about the attention economy and he's been featured in media worldwide including sixty minutes PBS Newshour in many more he is is the CO founder of the Center for humane technology which can be found at humane tech dot com please enjoy without further ado my wide ranging conversation with Tristan Harris Tristan. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me Tim. I am thrilled to finally have you on the line to have a wide ranging conversation because we have many mutual friends and many of my listeners have requested you on the show. I thought that perhaps a a good place to start would be beautiful. Bali Bali really into a high have in my notes here a bullet references a retreat in Bali. That's an Indonesia for folks who were curious about Bali on hypnosis pickpocketing and magic. Let's let's dig into that. Why why go to such a thing and what did you learn. Did you accidentally sign any powers of attorney or walk out. It was actually one of the best life life choices that I think I've ever made I was as a magician night or as a kid I was a magician early on and got interested in reading siphoned up all of his information from books and things like that but then I it wasn't really a thing that was going active in my life as an adult but then about I don't know sometime sometime in two thousand sixteen. I saw this I was part of this newsletter by name is James Brown is a hypnotist based in the UK and he said he was going to run a a workshop on hypnosis pickpocketing and magic in Bali and I thought this is too good to pass up. It was about the one week vacation I had in the year and an end up going out there and it was something like me and eight or nine magicians. I was probably the most amateur and it was so much fun because every night you just I have these magicians going out on the town like we go to a bar somewhere in Bali and they would just clean up not cleaned up in the sense of their money in their wallets bullets but in the sense of just having fun with people and you would just watch these guys you know play with people's attention in ways that they didn't know what they were up against and it it wasn't pickpocketing in an adversarial sense like let me get all your money. It was done in the in the in the pudding money into pockets. Yeah it was done in the in the guise is of hey. I'm a magician. This is what I do but you know you. WanNa have some fun and it's really fascinating especially talking. I don't know if you know Apollo Robbins I don't but I'm definitely going to look this person up to learn more he. He's also one of the world's most famous pickpockets he's A. He's a teddy actually helping with my tedtalk when I was there and you know he's just has he actually worked in collaboration with a bunch of neuroscientists on essentially the limits of attention and stuff that he had picked picked up just by doing it but then later now being confirmed by by neuroscience and that's what I find fascinating about magic and pick pocketing is they were kind of the first applied psychologist and they've been doing this for hundreds of years and I just love that you know our scientists catching up to what the practitioners have known how to do for for a long time and I love for you to perhaps talk to some of the techniques or principles behind good good magic or pit pocketing and I'm sure there are and we'll have a chance to explore parallels and other places but for instance speak for my own personal the experience I about a month ago had a chance to go to the Magic Castle in Los Angeles for the first time and the recommendation from from the member who brought us in was to go to the close up room the close up magic room and it's seats somewhere between twelve twenty people. It's very small room and there's a table right in front of you. It was about five feet from me and after under the performance that we saw which was which was truly staggering just world class in terms of sleight of hand number of friends Sir with me one of very high end musician the other very successful entrepreneur and then a number of other folks walked out and said I have to question everything in my reality happen because of what could be done right in front of you. I mean literally right in front of you right. Are there any particular techniques six or principles that stand out for you in the realm of of magic pickpocketing hypnosis or other in in terms of these practitioner arts. I mean the the punchline is it's really about the limits of attention in all of the cases right. I mean I think the other thing you're also getting out as you had some pretty successful people by your side. It sounds like I mean business. People entrepreneurs the thing about magic that I always found most interesting is that it has nothing to do with the level like your level of being inoculated from the effect has nothing to do with your intelligence right like which is so fascinating right because you you could could have the most successful business person or you know off the charts prodigy and mathematics or something like that but it has nothing to do with the extent to which they can be fold in a close up you know experience or pick pocketing and that they are living in separate different domains that those are two different areas areas of skill or inauguration. I found fascinating because I think it says so much about what magic is doing. It's not about intelligence. It's about something more subtle title in about the weaknesses or the limits of the blind spots of the biopsies that we're all trapped inside of you know I always say it's like we're trapped in mind body meet suit that has a set of of you know bindings and bending to to how we see the world that you don't know that you're living inside of that corrective tissue that happens to bend attention that way. Eh misdirection his corporate simple. You know you look over here and you think you're looking. You think you're going to catch the magician doing it because you're looking. Where are you would think that he doesn't want you to look but he's probably by that point. Already you know four steps ahead of you so by the time you're looking at the place on the other hand must be any other hand but like that you're behind it happened three steps ago and usually there's a setup so sometimes the the actual trick happened at the very beginning and then there's there's layers upon layers that are being built and the magicians usually working two or three steps ahead. I wish I could give more concrete examples by the magician's code is you don't you don't give this stuff up to public. The the fighting magic of courses all it actually is all public. You just have to buy book but people don't read books and so it remains a secret but you know. I I think that in pickpocketing what was fascinating is people think oh you grab it when I'm not looking. It's not like that at all. I mean as a pickpocket. Get the person will stand right up next to you the look we'll talk to you. Then you're just having a conversation they will with you. They will look down at your left pocket and they'll tap it and they'll say oh what's what's in that pocket over there and then you pull out you know keys in wallet and you look and say okay. That's interesting. What's in that well and you know you're you're right there with them as they're doing this and when it's in this other moment they say well look at what's happening the other pocket and they'll turn around walk around. You and there's all this mischief that starts to happen in those moments in between but what's interesting pickpocketing is the way people on the outside. The public tends to think about it is they just Kinda. Grab it when you're not looking but what's fascinating is actually happens right underneath your nose so I just I love it. It's it's so amazing to watch. These guys work that you were very recently testifying the right verb here or presented. What is maybe we the the lead witness in a in a Senate hearing on persuasive technology and If if I'm remembering correctly and feel free to to fact check at this but you you talked about the magician's choose pick picard any card or or Lou that might have been in your tedtalk. It was in one of the two we'll come back to the Washington. DC But the when you mentioned that it it an MD to try try to tie things together here. It made me think of the control the Menu you control the choices which is one of the hijackers hijacks you talk about can you can you describe this. Can you elaborate on that yeah. Well I mean we tend to live in you know we're in the United States and we tend to live in in a libertarian culture. That's all about celebrating protecting the freedom to make our own choices but at a very very deep level we don't were not also taught to question who control the menu of choices that we are picking this also occurs I think at a deep spiritual or identity level you know you can make any choice you want but you don't see the invisible constraints on how you are seeing the world in such a way that you're only picking from the five Habich a-all the things that your mind that shows up in your mind on a daily basis but in magic the principle is just in. It's actually more nuance in this funny Darren Brown the famous mental. I was e mailing with him the other day and he was saying I could probably teach you some some things to update your your view that this is the most important principle magic but you know if you control the the the the menu and the order of options as presented in the emphasis as they're presented you you can. I mean I wish wish I could do a demo here but I'm not a good enough to live. you know you can make it seem as if someone has whittled down from the entire deck of cards down to one from fifty two cards cards down to one and it seems as if they've made their own free choice along the way in like four distinct choice you know moments but in fact you know exactly what that card you wanted them to get to all along and you know the kind of questions you can ask people shape the outcome the kinds of sequencing insinger the questions the meaning making it. It's hard to do this without actually giving people the the you know the whole techniques but I think this is something that is really important understand whether it's in the way that technology presents menus to us the way that society or culture. Do you know any any way you choose your still choosing menu that has other people's interests behind it you you mentioned invisible constraints so the the assumptions that we may not be aware that we're making or the box that we've created for ourselves in some fashion or adopted from our environment or parents or other places. Are there any any particular are sort of tools or mental models or or anything at all that you use to try to identify the invisible constraints in your or life. Yeah I mean it's a great question. I mean fundamentally. I feel like the process of waking up or awakening is to try to see assumptions that that were making or you know guiding principles in our choices you know are are even asking the right questions like let's say right after this interview you know you get outside and so you can go in any direction like what is that just think about that that moment so I'll leave this podcast studio and you'll leave your house and then what comes up into your mind and about where to go right I mean it's usually a set of habits. Maybe it's like Oh. What do I need to do. Let me refer to my to do list. What is it you know which cafe to the go-to for an iced coffee to run away from that anxiety that I was feeling because I don't know what to do with myself. There's limited. We're kind of creatures of habits and so especially when we're inside of embedded environments environments that we've been in for long periods of time we tend to play out the same patterns over and over again. This is where the this is both kind of a new age throwaway Stephen in and also a real one. which is you know wherever you are? What is it?.
Tristan Harris says tech is 'downgrading' humanity but we can fix it
"Human downgrading is the climate change of culture like climate change. It can be catastrophic. Unlike climate change only about a thousand people among like five companies need to change what they're doing. Now in saying that I'm not trying to disempower the thousands of millions of us outside of these systems that are like, well, then I guess, I'm not included. That's not at all. This is gonna take everyone. The policymakers the shareholder activists to put board resolutions on these companies board, you know, board meetings. The media guiding the conversation policymakers in government jobs to protect citizens from all these things everyone has a role. We're trying to simply facilitate an an exceleron that work by providing that common language understanding, we asked about policy one simple thing. You know? The best ethics is the ethics of symmetry do unto others as you would do unto yourself for the kids stuff. Imagine a world where you designed products in such a way that you. Happily endorse and have your own children. Use those products for hours a day that neutralizes about half the harms immediately. Because notice the none of the Silicon Valley executives have their own children use these products, the CEO of legible. So I've seen they use them. Well, I been around a lot of these children. It was about what he said when I say that it's not like Google search box or YouTube at all I mean, more like social media like a lot of them. Do not use social media at all. And you know, I it's just a such a simple shift to make and the CEO of lunch Ables food did not let his own children eat vegetables. Right. So you know, you have a problem when you are not eating your own dog food there needs to be skin in the game and other principle is that the people closest to the pain should be closest to the power. There are groups that are trying to bring these ethnic minorities in these developing countries most affected by these things with no public representations here. We are in the free world where you know, Rene Engalnd and others do this hard to do research, and they publish it in Washington Post in your times, you know, in Nigeria. Cameroon and Sri Lanka. They don't have that same level of accountability. And so we need those groups to have a seat at the table. They should be included. They need to be much more diversity, obviously in these conversations. But especially where we know sorted by the harms by the tensions that are being produced seem to be any movement that way they're hoping it goes away. They're hoping it goes awakening, Craig. Very hard marks. Now. Trying to create the greatest encrypted privacy organization on the planet. Now, he's just trying to encrypt it and hide it, right? And that day. I mean by missing something like he's like, oh, no the jigs up over here. I'm going over. Right. Well, in a lot of that, I'm assuming I always want to be, you know, his charitable as possible and give the benefit the doubt. I'm sure there are some good reasons for doing that based on you know, again, they're the only they're the only ones who have access to know. So whatever decision making they're doing. They're the only ones deciding that's a huge problem. Let's assume there's some good reasons for doing that besides that fact, there's still also the fact that this is the best way in the world to escape liability right because one of the things that happened with Russia investigations, they don't wanna look, you know, with with children's mental. They don't as soon as they look they're responsible. So you know, when it's all private, and these decentralized channels, suddenly it's all happening in the dark, and there are many of us who are concerned about what that means for disinformation. When there's no way to track. What's? So these are thorny problems are no easy solutions we need complexity and nuance more than ever we need thoughtfulness.
"tristan harris" Discussed on 600 WREC
"Tide this game at one that's stands right now. Under five minutes to play the games. First period. Meanwhile, later on tonight and get the Dallas Stars in the Saint Louis blues in Dallas. But the blues Lee that best seven series two games to one in the NBA. There's one game tonight on the menu nuggets and trailblazers from the mile is city tip times at nine o'clock eastern nuggets series one game to love major league baseball today all kinds of action on the diamond is oh onto Kelly gets away. From Sanchez comes around score. Back down to third base goes to mcabe. Thank you. Please. Coming back beat the Yankees. They three to iheartradio is the easy to use app for music and radio. Download the free iheartradio app today. Steve pool is a production of iheart radio and unusual productions. So I mean, let's just ground the conversation for a second. There's two point two billion people who use Facebook. It's about the size of Christianity. There's one point nine billion people who use YouTube that's about the size of Islam. That's Tristan Harris when I walk into that Facebook room, you know, I'm walking into a room designed never make me leave with the thousand engineers using supercomputers to calculate the perfect seductive thing to put in front of my brain. And Tristan knows a thing. Too about seduction. I was design at the cystic Google and.
"tristan harris" Discussed on The Art of Manliness
"And they realize okay, what we're going to have to do is actually engineer in moderate behavioral addictions into our service. And that's where you start to see these apps really take off with features that are recruited mainly to exploit psychological vulnerabilities in this users to try to get people to obsessively compulsively check this. So that they could create the revenue numbers that originally Facebook needed to show investor's, whereas IPO. Success? And so it really was Facebook. Which is why anyone who was an early user. Facebook has the split experience where they have an old memory of Facebook being something they would, you know, sometimes log onto on their computer and check on some things, and then they have this new memory of them obsessively compulsively using it what happened between there is that Facebook figured out. Okay. We can attention engineer. This thing to be compulsive. It will make a lot more money. And then once they had that idea everyone else sort of jumped on the bandwagon as well with the worst of these tactics that Facebook pioneered in other apps us now to keep people constantly checking their phone while they really were interested in sort of social related, psychological vulnerabilities, so and a lot of this, by the way comes from impart, the research of the NYU professor, Adam alter who's really looked into the psychological hooks. But also from Tristan Harris who is a former Google engineer who became a whistle blower and started writing about, hey, this is what we're doing. This is what this this is what's happening at these. Various attention companies. And so what was revealed through the sort of this whistle blower. Researchers like Tristan an atom is that hijacking the social apparatus in in your brain is a good way to get people to keep looking back. And so one thing they'll do, for example, is they introduced a lot more social approval indicators into these apps, so social approval indicator is some way that someone else can indicate to you that they thought about your thinking about you. Right. The original structure, a social media didn't have a lot of this. It was more you had post things, and then people could see it. So here's a baby picture and people could see the baby picture. But when they added things like the like button, right? There's a reason for that. Because now the like button mint. That's a lot more social approval indicators is very easy for people to indicate to you that they are thinking about you. And they added more and more these things like a tens of millions of dollars invested, for example to figure out how to do the facial recognition required to auto tag on photos. So that when you take. Instagram photo. It can say, hey, our algorithms looked at this photo. And we think this person the photo is, you know, so and so this is Brett you wanna tag, click a button to say, yes, why do they spend so much money to solve that really really hard. Computer, science vision problem is because it was another stream social approval indicators, right?.
"tristan harris" Discussed on Waking Up with Sam Harris
"How to meditate you can read my book on the top. Waking up or you can read any one of a thousand other books, but I just want to encourage you to look into this. If you haven't because you will not learn to meditate by accident, and you won't learn it by jogging or hiking or playing music or doing any of the other things you do to feel good paradoxically. Once you know, how to meditate you can experience the same insights into the nature of your mind, while jogging and hiking and play music and doing all the other things you like to do. But you are very unlikely to have these insights and experience the associated change in your perception of yourself and the world without explicitly learning the practice of meditation. So if you haven't explored in this area, and you're looking for a New Year's resolution I recommend adding that to the list. And now for today's podcast. Today. I'm speaking with Rene Directa Rene is the director of research at new knowledge and the head of policy at the nonprofit data for democracy, and she investigates the spread of hyper partisan and destructive narratives across social networks. She's co authored a recent report on the the Russian disinformation campaign both before and since the twenty sixteen presidential election. And we talk about all that she's advised politicians and policymakers members of congress State Department her work has been featured in the New York Times and the Washington Post and CNN and many other outlets. She's a member of the council on foreign relations and a Truman national security project security fellow. She also holds degrees in computer science and political science from SUNY Stony Brook as you'll hear Rene was recommended to me by my friend, and former podcast guest Tristan, Harris. Recommended hers authority on just what happened with the Russian influence campaign in recent years and Rene did not disappoint. So without further ado, I bring you Rene Directa. I am here with Rene Directa Rene. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me Sam, I was introduced you through our mutual friend Tristan Harris, had you Notre stone just done, and I met in mid twenty seventeen I had written an essay about Botts, and he read it and he shared it to Facebook funny enough, and we discovered the mid about sixty mutual friends, even though we've never met and we met for breakfast couple days later, and he wanted to talk about what I was seeing the things I was writing about and how they intersected with his vision of social platforms as having profound impacts on individuals. My research into how social platforms are having profound impacts on policy and society, and we had breakfast hit it off and think had breakfast again a couple of days later, so fast, friends, Tristan is great. He's so many people will recall he's been on the podcast. And I think he's actually been described as the conscience. Of Silicon Valley has just in terms of how he has been sounding the alarm on the toxic business model of social media in particular. So you touched on there for a second. But give us a snapshot of your background. And how you come to be thinking about the problem of bots and also just the specific problem. We're gonna be talking about if the Russian disinformation campaign and hacking of democracy. Yes, that's sort of a convoluted way that I got to to investigating Russian disinformation. Actually started back in twenty fourteen. I became a mom, and I was a just moved to San Francisco, but prior and I had to get my kid onto a preschool waiting list. Which is not always. Yeah. Not like a nice preschool, just like a preschool. And I and I and I I knew California had Samantha vacs problems. And I started googling for the data sets California to pub- part department public health has public data sets where they tell you the vaccine. Nation recent schools, anyway, I looked and I thought God this is a is a disaster waiting to happen. And lo and behold a couple months later, the Disneyland measles outbreak infected happen. And I reached out to my congressman is the first time I've ever done that. And I said, hey, you know, we should have a law for this..
Kid Phone Usage: Screen Time Changes Structure of Kids’ Brains, ‘60 Minutes’ Says
"If you have kids in wonder if all that time they spend on their smartphones endlessly scrolling snapping and texting is affecting their brains. You might wanna put down your own phone and pay attention. The federal government through the national institutes of health has launched the most ambitious study of adolescent, brain development, ever attempted in part. Scientists are trying to understand what no one currently does how all that screen time impacts the physical structure of your kids brains as well as their emotional development and mental health. Let me know when you're ready twenty one sites across the country. Scientists have begun interviewing nine and ten year olds and scanning their brains. They'll follow more than eleven thousand kids for a decade and spend three hundred million dollars doing it. It's quite an investment. Doctor guy Dowling of the national institutes of health gave us a glimpse of what they've learned. So far, the focus only I started talking about doing this study was tobacco marijuana all drugs. The screen time component really came into play. Because we were wondering what is the impact? I mean, clearly kids spend so much time on screens the first wave of data from brain scans of forty five hundred participants is in and it has Donald Dowling of the NIH and other scientists intrigued here, you can see that there are differences in the patterns, the Moro is found significant differences in the brains of some kids who use smartphones, tablets and video games. More than seven hours a day. What we can say is that this is what the brains look like of kids who spent a lot of time on screens, and it's not just one pattern. That's hassen. It's very fascinating the color show differences in the nine and ten year olds brains. The red color represents premature thinning of the cortex. That's the wrinkly outermost layer of the brain that processes information from the five senses. What is a thinning of the cortex? Mean? That's typically thought to be a maturation process. What we would expect to see later is happening a little bit earlier should parents be concerned by that. We don't know if it's being caused by the screen time. We don't know yet. If it's a bad thing, it won't be until we follow them over time that we will see if there are outcomes that are associated with the the differences that we're seeing in this single snapshot, the interviews and data from the NIH study have already revealed something else kids who spend more than two hours a day. A on screens got lower scores on thinking and language tests. When the study is complete is a possible that a researcher will be able to say whether or not screen time is actually addictive we hope so we'll be able to see not only how much time are they spending how they perceive it impacting them. But also, what are some of the outcomes and that will get at the question of whether there's a dictionary not win. Will you have the answers that you're searching for some questions will be able to answer in a few years. But some of the really interesting questions about these long term outcomes, we're going to have to wait a while because they need to happen that delay leaves researchers who studied technology's impact on very small children anxious in many ways, the concern that investigators like I have is that we're sort of in the midst of a natural kind of uncontrolled experiment on the next generation of children. Doctor Dimitri Christoph is at Seattle Children's hospital was the lead author of the American Academy of pedia. Deatrich most recent guidelines for screen time. They now recommend parents avoid digital media use except video chatting in children younger than eighteen to twenty four months. So what we do know about babies playing with ipads, is that they don't transfer what they learn from the ipad to the real world, which is to say that if you give a child an app where they play with virtual Legos, virtual blocks and stack them and then put real blocks in front of them. They start all over if they try to do it in real life. It's as if they've never done it before it, also, it's not transferable. Don't transfer the knowledge from two dimensions to three don't you? Kristina kiss is one of the few scientists who've already done experiments on the influence screens have on children under the age of two. It's a critical period for human brain development. If you're concerned about your teenager being addicted to their iphone your infant is much more vulnerable and using the exact. Same device your infant is more vulnerable. Because why because the experience of making something happen is so much more gratifying to them. In a small pilot study the doctor cosstalk has conducted on fifteen children. Researchers gave toddlers three toys first of plastic ATar than an ipad that played musical notes. And finally an ipad with an app that rewarded the kids with lights colors and sound. So it a very specific time of the research. Assistant will ask the child to give what they're playing with back to give it to the resources to research assistant. Sixty six percent of the time with their traditional toy the child will do just that with the ipad that simulates that they give it back almost with the same frequency. But with the ipad app that when they push on it, it does all kinds of things they're much less likely to give it back with a more interactive. I've had app the percentage of kids willing to hand it back to the researcher dropped from sixty percent to forty five percent. It's that much more engaging. It's that much more engaging. And that's what we find in the laboratory. It's engaging by design Tristan Harris told us in a story we reported more than a year ago. There's a whole playbook of techniques that get used to get using the product for as long as possible. Harris is a former Google manager. Who is one of the first Silicon Valley insiders to publicly acknowledge that phones and apps are being designed to capture and keep kids attention. This is about the war for attention, and where that's taking society, and we're that's taking technology which wanting for adults four kids. This is a whole other thing. That's where this gets particularly sensitive is developmentally. Do we want this war for attention to be affecting our children? Do you think parents understand the complexities of what their kids are dealing with? No. And I think this is really important because there's a narrative that all I guess they're just doing this like we used to gossip on the phone. But what this MRs is that your telephone in the nineteen seventies didn't have a thousand engineers and the other side of the telephone who are redesigning it to work with other telephones. And then updating the way your telephone work every day to be more and more persuasive until recently, it was impossible to see what happens inside a young. Brain when a person is focused on a mobile device. But now scientists at the university of California San Diego have hacked that problem. How often do you have people come in? Marois? So as often as we possibly can Dr Karen bag is an investigator on that three hundred million dollar NIH study her team is scanning teenagers brains as they follow Instagram. The most popular social media app when we met eighteen year old Roxy ship. She was about to participate in Dr baggage study how much time do you actually spend on screens a check my phone, Freddie regularly. I'd say what's pretty regularly every at least ten to twenty minutes is a conservative estimate. She can't take her phone into the MRI because of the powerful magnets in the machine. So a mirror has been placed above her face to allow her to look across the room at a movie screen displaying images from her Instagram account this way, Dr Baghdad can see exactly which parts of the brain's reward system are most active while using social media. So you could actually see a part of the brain light up when you're feeling good. Yes. From the scanner in the Skinner based on her data and the results from other studies. Dr baggage is among scientists who believe screen time stimulates the release of the brain chemical dopamine, which has a pivotal role in cravings and desire. So you're more likely to act impulsively. And use social media compulsively. Instead of like checking yourself you wanna keep on it to keep getting the good feelings. Teenagers. Now spend on average four and a half hours a day on their phones all that time has resulted in a fundamental shift in how a generation of American kids acts and thinks when smartphones went from being something only a few people had something the majority of people had it had this really big affect on how teens related to each other. Gene twinkie is a psychology professor at San Diego State university. She spent five years combing through four large national surveys of eleven million young people since the nineteen sixties she discovered sudden changes in the behavior and mental health of teens born in one thousand nine hundred five and later generation that she calls I gen- now the first generation to spend their entire adolescence with smartphones. So a lot of them can't remember a time before smartphones existed. There have been generational shifts before in the past. I haven't they're certainly this one's much more sudden and pronounced. Than most of the others. The food was introduced in two thousand and seven smartphones. Gained widespread usage among young people by two thousand and twelve gene. Twenty says she was startled to find that in the four years that followed the percentage of teens who reported drinking. We're having sex fell. But the percentage who said they were lonely or depressed spite it's possible. Other factors may have played a role. But twenty says she wasn't able to identify any that correlated as closely as the growing popularity of the smartphone and social media. It's not just the loneliness and depression from these surveys. It's also that ER visits for self harm like cutting have tripled online girls aged ten to fourteen what our teams doing on their phones that that could be connected to depression. It could be anything. There's there's kind of two different schools of thought on this said, it's the specific things that teams are doing on their phones. That's the problem or it could be just the sheer amount of time. Mm that they're spending on their phones. That's the problem. Finding definitive answers about social media's influence on mental health can be a frustrating. Exercise. Eighty one percent of teens in a new national survey by the Pew Research Center said they feel more connected to their friends and associated social media use with feeling included. But in a month long experiment at the university of Pennsylvania college