7 Episode results for "Tim Wong"

What happens if online advertising is just a big, fat bubble?

Marketplace Tech with Molly Wood

09:35 min | 4 months ago

What happens if online advertising is just a big, fat bubble?

"This marketplace podcast to support it by Destination Medical Center located in the heart of Rochester Minnesota destination. Medical Center is a public private economic development initiative offering an inspiring hub for growth and innovation learn more online at DMC got. And by the d'amore mckim School of business at Northeastern University a world class business school preparing leaders to thrive in the digital economy. Further, your potential through experience driven learning and a combination of skills. No other business school can provide combine technology analytics and creative problem solving with experienced driven learning. It's business education reimagined. Take your next step at northeastern dot edu slash be more. That's northeastern dot edu slash be more. Online. Advertising is the business model of the Internet. But what if it's just a big fat bubble from American public media? This is marketplace tech I'm molly would. So. Big Tech monopolies are in the news this week the Department of Justice sued Google over how it maintains its search dominance and it search dominance is the key to its business model, which is that it makes eighty percent of its revenue from digital advertising facebook by the makes ninety, nine percent of its revenue from advertising and the profitability of targeted ads is also a big reason why tech companies are constantly collecting so much data about us and there's a multibillion dollar ad tech industry that exists because all of this makes so much money. But what these ads didn't actually work all that. Well, Tim Wong is a former public policy executive Google where he worked on artificial intelligence and machine learning and he's of the new book subprime attention crisis I. Think this is an interesting important distinction right? which is it's not necessarily to make the argument that advertising never works categorically right? We have examples of it working. The question is whether or not the market as a whole really lives up to the promises that it's made and the promises made is that data driven. Automated form of what's known as programmatic advertising is a kind of advertising that's way better than billboards or magazines or the kind of madman style of advertising and I think ultimately, it may be that we are exactly where we were decades ago. Right? which is we actually don't know which half of the money spent advertising works in which one is wasted. We just very difficult to tell. Is, there an awareness of this? I mean I know that you know after for example, Cambridge Politica, there was a lot of conversation about how there are lots of promises related to micro targeting and that it just might not be. Realistic. Like do advertisers are they starting to understand this? Well, I, think there's a lot of willful blindness in the Advertising Space you know so this book that I just wrote, it opens on a really strange experience that I had going to a marketing conference where a professor laid out all of the evidence right? You know sixty percent of people never see ads ad blocking up all around the world it was just dead space the. Advertisers kind of refuse to engage with it, and you know it's one of the things I've been thinking a lot about because it's similar to patterns that we see and other market bubbles right where there's these deep structural problems with the industry. But a lot of the people involved either don't want to hear it or they don't believe it I mean listen I'm very familiar with the idea of the belief that technology must be working even. All. Evidence to the contrary. But I do want to ask you about targeting specifically because it seems like there's a lot of technical reasons it doesn't work. But what about this idea that there's a massive amount of data collection that ads can be so specific and personalized that you literally cannot resist them are you saying that's also not true Yeah I. Mean You brought up Cambridge Analytical earlier? I mean there's a fascinating report that just came out from the UK privacy regulator that was basically their research to say look there's all of this kind of. Metric advertising does it make a difference and the conclusion? There was no there actually was not any significant difference and there's two reasons for that. One of them is a lot of researchers find that a lot of the data being used as faulty and messy and doesn't work and I think the other one is whether or not. This data actually helps you to target a message better is really unclear. There's a great researcher by the name of Allesandro. Who's been doing some work on if you have targeted ads versus non targeted ads, does it actually make a difference and conclusion is it does but really only by a small margin, much less than you think. Could it also expose the fact that a lot of these companies no longer want the data for advertising like they want it for machine learning. Yeah I. think that's ultimately you know I think one of the great questions and responses I've had to the book is people say so why have we built this enormous surveillance infrastructure? This thing just doesn't work I. Think people have traditionally thought. Oh, well, it's because Mark Zuckerberg wants to build a mind control ray that's his advertising system. You know the reality is that it has been collected for other reasons and for sure I think things like the promise of machine learning is is one of the reasons that people collect this data. What Can. Be Done. Do you think I mean? This is a big complicated technology question. You've got companies spending a ton of money and companies that rely on this for their whole business model. Like what could solutions even look like? One of my worries about this is that again, if you study the history of market bubbles, a lot of what we see is very reminiscent right to the say the subprime mortgage crisis of two, thousand, seven, two, thousand, eight, and there is a momentum here in the problem with bubbles is that. While, it may look great in two, thousand, seven, I think we were saying how great economy is doing. At some point they pop and I think the human costs will be great. It's really not just a matter of whether or not you know Mark Zuckerberg has less. Fewer billion dollars right I think you gotta think about all the media that's relying on this ecosystem that journalism that relies on it and many other places that advertising touches online, and so I I tend to believe in the idea that we have to find ways of deflating this bubble and so I'm really interested in kind of the ability to both spread the public word about some of the problems in this marketplace. But also I think there's room for regulation I. think There's room to enforce transparency in the marketplace to try to make sure that you know expectations about this match up with reality. There's been just as a regulatory matter there been a lot of questions about banning targeted advertising. Should that happen? Yeah I I do think. So and I think in some ways you know in may be the thing that pops the bubble right because for the longest time, advertisers have been basically holding to the position that we need all this data order to do our business to target our ads and what we're seeing as things. GDP are the European privacy law and CPA to California privacy law rollout is in many cases the market just keep chugging along even though our advertisers have a lot less access to data and I do think that that kind of realization that all this data might actually not have been very. Meaningful might actually 'cause you know sort of expectations or perceptions about how great this stuff is to kind of crash to Earth, and so you think these privacy laws have these two effects. One of them is to protect privacy, which of course is important but I think the other side of it is actually in May of like you know strip the veil off this market that I think has been kinda shrouded for so long Tim. Wong is the author of the new book subprime attention crisis. How big a bubble are we talking here? Digital advertisers will spend over one hundred and forty billion dollars in the US in twenty twenty. And now for some related links speaking of Intelligence and Google trying to find possibly other revenue streams, the interceptor reported Wednesday that the company has a contract with customs and Border Protection. To help power that agencies artificial intelligence work including what's being called a virtual wall between the US and Mexico that uses drones, sensors, and surveillance to find people trying to enter the country without authorization. This is, of course, definitely going to upset some people working at Google who protested another government contract in two thousand, eighteen called project Mabon that was shelved will be keeping an eye on that as for that antitrust lawsuit against Google ad week has a piece on how programmatic advertisers should probably be prepared for the possibility of that case, expanding beyond its current focus on search ads in. Fact despite the fact that almost every state has some kind of investigation into Google's business practices, just eleven states have joined. The DOJ's lawsuit more will likely pile on over time and there has been a lot of talk about how Google actually controls pretty much every part of what's known as the AD. Stack, and that is rich soil to till for a busy state attorney, General's office. Oh and also qube shutdown about which I think enough has been said. Molly would and that's marketplace tech. This is a PM this marketplace podcast to support it by transfer. Wise. The smart new way to send and receive money internationally transfer Weiss gives you the real exchange rate every time you send money abroad you can even get an account that holds up to fifty four currencies at once and convert between them anytime join over eight million customers in more than eighty countries who are already saving. Try them out for free at transfer wise dot com slash marketplace, or download the APP.

Google Tim Wong Mark Zuckerberg d'amore mckim School of busine Destination Medical Center Rochester Minnesota destinatio Medical Center DMC DOJ Cambridge Politica California US facebook Northeastern University Molly
441. Does Advertising Actually Work? (Part 2: Digital)

Freakonomics

50:14 min | 3 months ago

441. Does Advertising Actually Work? (Part 2: Digital)

"In our previous episode we learned that more than two hundred fifty billion dollars a year spent in the us on advertising globally. The figures nearly six hundred billion dollars. That's more than half a trillion dollars on advertising. Because of the digital revolution. Television advertising has lost some of its privacy but tv still accounts for roughly a third of ads spending in the us. The super bowl alone brings in more than three hundred million dollars and how effective is all that. Tv advertising mean how good is it actually selling the products it is telling you to buy the conventional wisdom says it's gotta be affected. Why else would companies spend so much money on it. But the data well the data tell a different story. Here's what we heard last week from anna tuchman. She is a marketing professor at northwestern university and she recently co authored a massive study on the efficacy of tv advertising. This means that doubling the amount of advertising would lead to about a one percent increase in sales so. Your research argues that. Tv advertising is about fifteen to twenty times less effective than the conventional wisdom says. Yes that's right. There are not surprisingly objections to this research especially from the marketing industry. For instance they will point to the brand building aspect of advertising. It's not just about short-term sales they'll say or the game theory aspect that is if you don't advertise your product and your rivals do. Where does that leave you. Still any company that spends even thousands of dollars on tv ads. Much less millions or billions would have to be sobered by anna. Tuchman findings was tv advertising. Always so inefficient or did it lose. Its lustre recently with the arrival of digital giants like google and facebook. We don't know the answer. That question but we do know is that people are spending more time online than ever before and the digital advertising holds the promise of matching advertisers precisely to the people who want their products at the end of the day. Everything around marketing strategy is around segmentation. That's the former chief. Marketing officer of unilever keith weed. More relevant to our to the audience the more interested. They'll be in your message on the more interested in your message. The more likely to buy a product and thanks to the cookies on your phone or computer such a cute name for such a powerful tracking device you are constantly telling the companies who installed those cookies. Exactly what you are interested in you. Also tell them where you live what you wear and listen to eat. What kind of people you hang out with. Which god if any hugh believe in which political party you hate less than the other yes. The thinking advertising has changed radically with the arrival of digital and data. The internet has made it almost too easy to sell to us and sell to us. They do last year. Advertisers spent one hundred and twenty three billion dollars on internet ads in the us. It's just less than half the total ad spending across all media. That's how facebook and bet the parent company. Google have become two of the most valuable companies in the world. More than eighty percent of google's revenue comes from advertising or the ninety eight percent of facebook's revenue comes from advertising with so many advertisers spending so many billions they must be getting a healthy return on their investment right so digital advertising must be effective right Today freakonomics radio a hard look at the hard to find evidence around digital advertising. Oh adds definitely work. But we can't tell you how or why or give you any evidence for it from stitcher and productions. This is freakonomics radio. The podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host stephen. Duffner steve to dallas is a professor at haas school of business as of california berkeley. Yes and i teach and do research in a lot of his research is on the economics of the internet. Back in two thousand eleven. He started doing some work with ebay. I was asked to hire and lead a team. Economists and work with a variety of the businesses within ebay. The hiring of prominent academic economists is a long standing practice at tech firms. How varian also from berkeley worked for years as chief economist at google john list from the university of chicago has done similar work. I at uber and now at lift. So here was steve to dallas at ebay and at one point one of the directors. They're realized that as economists know something about metrics which is the statistics of measuring economic activity. And they wanted to see if we could vet a consultant that they recently hired a consulting firm to do quantitative marketing analytics. And help ebay figure out how to spend their scarce marketing dollars. Let me just say that. Scarce here is relative term that the time ebay was spending about a billion dollars a year and a variety of marketing activities. Okay so it makes sense that ebay would wanna know how effectively that money was being spent more than half of it was going toward internet ads and this outside consulting firm was going to analyze the efficacy of those ads and the goal was to speak with this consulting company and see if they're going to use solid and vetted ways of measuring these returns to advertising to be fair measuring the efficacy of advertising. Can be really hard last week. My freakonomics friend and co author. Steve told us about trying to help a big box. Retailer measure the efficacy of their tv ads. One issue that they really only advertise three times a year for father's day black friday and christmas. And so you of course have a correlation between your advertising tv. And when you're selling things but it's not necessarily or even primarily because of the ad it's because the company knows when the big selling days are and they target the ads around it so he's not the causal part the sales that wouldn't have happened absent advertising. It's just a really hard problem. But within that firm levitt found the executives were convinced it was the ads the caused the sales. Steve terrell again. This is the kind of wrong analysis that many people end up falling into when they are not that can chien-shan about the difference between causation and correlation. To dell's knew this would be hard problem for ebay as well. And that's what these outside consultants were supposed to figure out. So i got an a call with them. Very quickly was able to confirm that what they're doing was quite wrong. Just you know consulting firms. Also like to higher academic economists to do this kind of work. So you can maybe see where this is going to. Dallas is listening intently on the call which was on a landline which will make sense. In a second and went to della suggested that the consultants proposed methodology would not be able to untangle correlation and causation. They responded using a whole bunch of jargon especially the term proprietary transformation functions proprietary meaning. That's our secret. Transformation functions meaning who knows to della said he still didn't understand how these consultants were going to measure the thing that needed to be measured the marginal effect of the ads that ebay was spending millions on then The head of the company replied by saying that to do the marginal measurement. They're going to use legrand's multipliers. Well i paused for a second. Because i know at lagrange multipliers are. I used to teach this stuff. And i couldn't understand what they're trying to do here. And that's when the dime dropped they are trying to jargon me so i replied by saying well we all know that the lagrange multipliers measure the shadow values of constraints in an optimization problem. So would really help me if you explain to me. What is your objective function. And what are you constraints after a short pause and this is where i have to take my hat off to the founder of the consulting company. He merely responded with the only and best answer he could give. Which was steve. Are you driving now. Because i can't hear you you're breaking up to dallas. Took his concerns back to his bosses at ebay. He proposed different way to understand the impact of the online ads. Ebay was buying. He offered to run some randomized experiments to researcher. That's the gold standard and there was not any buying but coincidentally but coincidentally one of the advertising and marketing teams wanted to renegotiate a deal with yahu and microsoft network namely the bing search engine that is ebay wanted to renegotiate the terms under which they bought search ads on being and before doing that. They ceased all payments for brand keyword advertising. That's because ebay was trying to create some leverage heading into their renegotiation. Okay but now. We need a primer on keyword advertising. And how you actually buy online ads right so just like you could imagine the auction for a piece of art at sotheby's where the auctioneer puts up this picasso and says how much people are willing to pay and then give it to the highest bidder. Something similar is happening. Every time someone searches for anything on google or yahoo or being or any other search engine and you have companies that are bidding on different kinds of keywords companies. That want to advertise online. Come up with a list of words that they think will give them the best chance of connecting with people who are searching for what the companies are selling these could be branded keywords like ebay or verizon or non branded keywords like stiletto heels cable. Tv if i'm in the insurance industry and someone is searching car insurance on google i wanna be there but i don't want to be there when someone is searching for philophical unless maybe you've got a specialty line of philosophy insurance and wants someone types car insurance. The second they click enter. All these computers are basically running these auctions instantaneously. This is done with the aid of sophisticated. Algorithms they allocated to the winner. And that's how the ad pops up went to dallas was working for ebay. The company was in the practice of buying brand keyword. Which meant that if you did an online search for ebay the top result before all the organic search results was a paid ad four ebay. The federal trade commission requires such adds to be clearly labeled as ads. Although some of the labeling is pretty subtle go do a google search for something like best running shoes. And you'll see what i mean anyway. These paid ebay adds that to dallas is talking about now. This is what the consulting company said had the highest bang for the buck. Which of course made no sense from a common sense perspective. Because i'm already searching for ebay. I know exactly where i wanna go. So the fact that the ad intercepts me and i click on it is just coincidental and it. Cannibalize is what would have been a free. Click on the organic search so when ebay in planning to renegotiate their deal with being turned off their brand keyword advertising mad gave us with call the natural experiment. This is what economists dream about a change in a variable that affords a real opportunity to separate correlation from causation. We could measure visits and we measure purchases and we could see whether there was any drop in clicks and purchases and not surprisingly all the research that was taken away from. The ads just ended up coming for free through the organic search because right below the ad was the free linked to ebay. Once we had those results. I went to the chief financial officer of ebay north america and showed him the analysis to which he responded. Okay you guys. Were right what we do next. And that gave us the open door to design more sophisticated experiments to dallas wound up running to experiments along with fellow. Economists thomas blake and chris nocco the first one essentially mirrored the natural experiment. They turned off all brand keyword search ads. Which means that if someone searches for ebay ebay will start an ad the conjecture that we have which i can't see any other conjecture is that if there is no competition for keyword ebay then once you remove that add the organic search is going to be the first thing that people see and that means that they're going to go to ebay directly without having ebay pay any fees to the search engine for the advertising and that is precisely what they found surprise surprise other researchers have found even more pronounced results imagine that an ebay competitor like amazon enters an ad auction for the keyword ebay and wins at auction. This means that when you search for ebay. The top blink. You'll get is an amazon link. In such cases researchers found most people just ignore the amazon link and move on directly to ebay which means brand keyword advertising. Whether it's your brand or someone else's is a waste of money exactly imagine you're a restaurant owner. And you want a handout coupons. In order to get people to come to your restaurant and if you want to measure the returns on that coupon you really need to know how many people would come without the coupon. Because here's the thing for every person who would have come anyway. You're losing money. The analogy in my view of brand keyword advertising is handing out the coupons inside the restaurant the second experiment to dallas and his colleagues ran used non branded keywords. Just the names of things that people might be looking to buy online like guitar. Were boots or picture frame. Yes so for non branded search. We actually had no idea what the results are going to be. Because here if i am searching for example studio microphone. I'm sure that on ebay. I might fine of variety of used ones. But if i'm not thinking about ebay and i just search for studio microphone if ebay doesn't pay an ad they might not even show up on the first page. And by the way the automated machines at ebay doing the online bidding. They had a basic library of close to a hundred million different combinations of keywords because ebay has practically everything you could imagine for sale on the site so we really had no idea what the returns for the non branded searches would be. Experimentally designed used a border strategy. That's the same method we heard about in our earlier episode on tv advertising. This takes advantage of what are called. Dma's or designated market areas. What most of us think of as media markets it turns out that most people living on one side of a market border are socio economically and demographically similar to the people living on the other side when two similar populations are served different ads. Which happens all the time you can isolate the impact of the advertising on their actual purchases. There are two hundred ten. Dma's in the us and we took a third of these delays and we turned off all paid search advertising. This was an extremely blunt experiment. Where we're saying what would happen if we didn't advertise at all and to our surprise the impact on average was pretty much zero. Did you catch that. They turned off all their keyword search ads. Then measured sales and the impact on average was pretty much zero. What was ebays existing belief about paid search advertising. The company believed that roughly five percent of sales were driven by paid search advertising. Meaning that they believe that if he would pull the plug on advertising sales would drop by five percent. What we found was that sales dropped by about half a percent so that's an order of magnitude less and it was not statistically different from zero but maybe it's still worth it to gain even half a percent now. We have to know what the advertising costs and measure the return on investment when you did the return on investment for every dollar that ebay spins ebay. Believe that for every dollar. They're spending they're getting roughly a dollar and a half back meaning fifty cents of net profits and what we showed that on average. They're losing more than sixty cents on every dollar. So how did these results go over. Well the president of ebay. Who later became the ceo. He cut the paid search marketing budget. Immediately one hundred million dollars a year. So what happened next. You might think what with capitalism being the hyper competitive market optimizing perfect information ecosystem. It's supposed to be you might think that other companies once they learned about this ebay research would cut their online ad spending or at least commission their own research to test the theories. So did they excellent question. There was a lot of chatter online after our experiments became public. Suggesting that folks at ebay don't know what they're doing and paid search. Advertising works wonderfully if you know how to do it. But of course that was backed with no data and no analysis in other words the digital ad community did not rush to replicate the results now given the opportunity to save millions of dollars that the ebay research showed was being wasted. Why wouldn't other companies at least poke their own data little harder. Well i think there are many reasons. Let's start with the way in which this industry is structured. You could think of four different actors. Here there's the customer which is the company or the person who wants to advertise in order to get business and then you have three players sitting on the other side of this market. One is the publishers that would be google. That would be the new york times or any other place where the ad appears in front of people the other are the people who create ads and then finally Smaller part of the industry are these analytics. Companies that like that company ebay hired are trying to help companies spend this money and if you think of all these three players on the other side of the fence. No-one there has an incentive to basically open this pandora's box even within the company. That's buying the ads. The incentives can be complicated. Steve levitt again. If you think about it no chief marketing officer is ever going to say hey. I don't know maybe ads don't work. It's not doing and see what happens. Don't get me wrong. I'm not implying that advertising doesn't work. I'm implying that we don't have a very good idea about how well it works. Steve to dallas agrees. The potential for digital advertising would seem especially large given its ability to micro target consumers and targeting really is key because one of the lessons we learned from the experiments at ebay. Was that people who never shopped on ebay. They were very much influenced by having ebay ads for non brand keywords. You know guitar chair studio microphone and if ebay would be able to better target ads to customers that are not frequent customers. That's where you would get the real bang for the buck. So as companies become more sophisticated. They could try to engage in these kind of experiments to focus attention on different customer segments in order to see where they get the highest returns on advertising by in large. I don't see that happening. A big part of it is the naievety on the side of these customers customers. Meaning the companies who are buying these keyword ads. The one actor sitting alone on their side of the fence across from the agencies the publishers the ad tech firms and one of the things that i try hard to do is to give people enough information so that they wouldn't be able to do the job themselves but if someone is trying to sell them snake oil they'll smell something as off working here coming up. After the break is the digital advertising economy a bubble. I do think this is very parallel to the kinds of psychology. Had driven bubbles in the past. Also if you like freakonomics radio and you've gotten this far so presumably don't hate it. You may also like the two other shows that recently launched within the freakonomics radio network. One is called no stupid questions. The other people i mostly admire. I am proud to say that. No stupid questions. Which launched in may is already coming up on five million downloads and people. I mostly admire which launched only at the end of summer is coming up on. Its first million so go. Listen and subscribe new stupid questions and people i mostly admire. You can find them wherever you listen to podcasts. And now here's an ad that somebody probably cooked up just for you. Freakonomics radio is sponsored by rocket mortgage getting a mortgage doesn't have to be a hassle rocket mortgage gives you the tools information and expert help. You need understand all of your home. Loan options and purchase with certainty visit rocket mortgage dot com slash freakonomics. Because when you need a mortgage fits your life. Rocket can call for cost information and conditions equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states and m l s consumer access dot org number thirty thirty freakonomics radio sponsored by kiko kiko is defining the future of play by making it engaging enriching and seriously fun. They create hands on art and science projects designed to expose kids to concepts in steam science technology. Engineering art and kids can engineer. Walking robot designed a paint pendulum and more all from the comfort of home. Everything you need to make steam seriously fund during the holidays delivered to your doorstep get fifty percent off your first month plus free shipping on any crate line with code freakonomics at kiwi co dot com. That's k. I w i. C o dot com code freak comics west papin congregation lacey mosley aka scam artists and host of scam. Ghitis the podcast celebrating fraud and all those who practice it each week. I keep listeners up to date on current records. Deep dives into the latest scams and breakdown historic hoodwinked. Some of your favorite comedian tiny. It's like true crime but without all the did true fun as crimes with only little episodes drop every tuesday. Listen and stitcher apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. I remember congregation stay scheme. We reached out to facebook and google with some questions about their ad business and get a response to the research. We've been discussing today. Which argues that paid. Search advertising is substantially less effective than the conventional wisdom holtz. We got no reply from facebook. The google representatives wrote back to say quote advertisers invest money in search ads. Because they work they also sent some internal google research back up their claim separately. We received an unsolicited email from. How variant the chief economist at google. He attached a long list of research. Papers that the efficacy of search advertising as well as advertising on youtube which is owned by google. Much of the research was done by. Google analysts it offers a robust defense of the status quo the online ad ecosystem. Google has built off of there. Search capability is quite literally a license to print money alphabet. Google's parent company has a market capitalization of nearly one point two trillion dollars last year. Eighty three percent of their revenue came from advertising so it would probably behoove all of us to know a little bit more about how this ecosystem functions whether it's as effective as google says it is or as ineffective has researchers like steve dallas told us earlier about his research at ebay. Ebay believed that for every dollar. They're spending they're getting fifty cents of net profits and what we showed that on average. They're losing more than sixty cents on every dollar so okay. let's try to understand this ecosystem better. I we will need a guide. Sure my name is tim. Kwong h. w. a. n. g. My day job is. I'm a research fellow at the center for security and emerging technology at georgetown and before that i was previously global head of public policy for ai and machine learning at google one recently published a book subprime attention crisis advertising in the time bomb at the heart of the internet. It's about how big tech monetizes our attention. When i started to do research by very naturally started to talk to a couple of friends who work at these big tech companies and there was a little bit like talking to someone who works in national security or the intelligence community or something like that because they would be like oh adds definitely work. But we can't tell you how are y or give you any evidence for it. Google would plainly dispute that. There is no evidence for whether online ads work. Tim wong recognizes. He is tilting at windmills here. Trillion dollar windmills. But in fact he. i grew skeptical about online advertising. While still working at google he began reading trade journals and going to conferences and this fascinating experience. Where one of these keynotes at this conference was given by nicole. Newman who basically is a big ad. Critic nico newman. Is a marketing professor at the melbourne business school in australia and he presented to really fascinating studies that his lab had done the first one was looking into the quality of data used in the ad tech industry basically demonstrating in many cases. It was incredibly inaccurate and the second one was. He took dead. Aim at hype cycle around. Ai that exists in ad tech right now where people are saying if you have this latest machine learning you have this ai. You'll give the targeting in a way that you never ever were able to do before and nico's lap did. Some experiments have demonstrated that in many cases machine learning was finding people who would have bought the product anyway anyways bringing this message to an ad tech conference is a bit like bringing a safety pin to a balloon conference that looked around being like where so angry and it was just total dead air. No one responded no one engaged with it and it got me really interested in thinking about. Is there a bubble here. A bubble like the dot com bubble or the subprime bubble or the tulip bubble. Because this is exactly the kinds of behavior that occur in other financial bubbles where the red lights are flashing but everybody industry just refuses to take a look at the real data long began thinking about how bubbles happen so the origins of every bubble come in this gap that occurs in a marketplace. On one hand you have people who believe that. An asset whether it's collateralized debt obligations or advertising inventory is extremely valuable and on the other hand what you have is declining asset value so in the prime mortgage crisis believed that mortgages rose gonna just pay out regularly forever right. When next turned the package of mortgages were actually a terrible asset. There were toxic and about to go belly up. so how can wong justify a parallel with digital advertising. I think the first piece is really the big question of do people ever see ads at all. So google actually did a fascinating study not too long ago which concluded that close to sixty percent of ads on the internet are never ever even seen the ad is delivered but it just ends up in some dumb part of the page. Right is below the fold their sideline but what about the precise targeting. The digital ads are supposed to offer a two thousand nine thousand nine hundred study this one done by three academic researchers addressed this question by measuring the impact of users cookies. Those remember are the tracking codes. Most of us allowed to roam our computers and phones in exchange for all the free information we get from companies like google and facebook. This study found that when a user's cookies were unavailable ed revenues only dropped by about four percent. Why would cookies be so ineffective. Tim wong argues that people pay a lot less attention to online ads and they used to. People often forget that when banner ads first loss on the internet there click through rate was like fifty percent completely mind-bending and it's just continue to fall and fall and fall and now it's like point zero one. Two point zero three percent. Some estimates of click through rates are higher than what sites here that said precise measurement is hard because there are so many bots clicking on adds a whole other problem with the digital ad universe but no matter how you measure it click through rates have fallen a lot as the novelty wears off habituation sets in and an ad that might have once grabbed your attention becomes invisible or worse annoying. People increasingly don't want ads. So ad blocking for example is really really increasing over time. And i think these factors not being able to see ads the questions about the effectiveness of ads and the rise of things ad blocking bring into question whether his thing that we think is so valuable is actually worth as much as we think it is but if there is such a big gap between the perceived and real value of digital advertising. Why are google and facebook worth so much money. Look at it this way. There are a couple trillion reasons why tim might be wrong. But he doesn't think so. His theory is that digital advertising is grotesquely overvalued because it is still so hard to measure and one reason it's hard to measure is that the marketplace is exceedingly opaque. So there's a fascinating incident. That i always think about which is one of the last times. That mark zuckerberg was called up to congress and one of the questions that he got from. One of the senators was well. How do you guys make money. Sustain a business model in which users don't pay for your service and mark zuckerberg senator. We run ads and at the time. A lot of the chatter on twitter was like ha ha look at the super old. He doesn't know anything about the internet. But it's true that even if you talk to people in the tech industry and you're like okay level with me joe engineer. How do ads work on the internet. It's kind of a rumor like we know. This is how the business model works but no one can really explain how it works in detail. So when i say advertising a lot of people normally think of like madman right but it really looks like what the nasdaq looks like which is largely automated system that moves millions and millions and billions of pieces of ad inventory on a daily basis as steve to dallas explained earlier. Most ad inventory is sold by auctions which are run by algorithms operating at phenomenal speed. This is one contributor to the opacity of the industry for instance. It can be hard to figure out why certain ads and up on certain pages if you are a family brand like disney. You don't want your ad popping up on youtube video showing a terrorist beheading. This has been a source of chronic embarrassment to the ad industry. The prevention of this kind of ad mismatch is known as brand safety and despite the greatest efforts at trying to eliminate the risk of brand safety from the ad market. People buying largest haven't been able to again. The industry itself would disagree. We ask google how they ensure an ad doesn't show up on a page promoting misinformation or conspiracy theory. Here's their reply. We have strict policies that govern what kind of content we place ads on. And if we find the page or website that violates our policies we take immediate action in two thousand nineteen. We'd the former marketing boss at unilever helped create a consortium called the global alliance for responsible media which pushes for better add controls to protect brand safety end today. Everyone wants a well-functioning internet and everyone wants to have a positive impact on the world and not to have some of the issues. We're wrestling with right now. I think that off has not been easy. So far. This september after months of advertiser boycotts facebook twitter and youtube agreed to adopt a common set of definitions for hate speech and develop tools to let advertisers have more control over where their ads show up. But tim wong thinks the longstanding opacity of the online ad marketplaces. Just one reason. We might be in a digital advertising bubble. I think a second thing is a little bit like in the subprime mortgage crisis you have people who have very perverse incentives. I think to push the effectiveness of online ads. that's the ad agencies the ad platforms themselves. The people who run technology. All these people i think have a very strong incentive to say no. This stuff is way better than earlier generations of advertising. And this is why you should use it. If you've been listening closely you'll notice. This is the exact same problem. Steve levitt talked about regarding the tv ad ecosystem. Human beings generally make decisions based on self interest. No chief marketing officer is ever gonna say hey. I don't know maybe ads don't work. Let's not do a and see what happens. Or as the author upton sinclair once wrote it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it so there is a common practice which is not very well disclosed in the ad industry whereby an ad tech company will basically offer ad inventory at a cheap price to the advertising agency the agency remember is paid by you the client who hired them to help you so what you're selling and the agency will turn around them say you should really use this ad tech product and sell at higher price and one of the worries about this is it changes the incentives right which is typically the ad agency should be working on behalf of the client but in these cases have very perverse incentives to push distribution of a message that may not otherwise be rational or even useful to them all of these issues and all the new empirical evidence we've been discussing about the ineffectiveness of advertising has persuaded tim wong that yes. The online ad. Marketplace is a bubble and it might soon pop in fact the deflation may have already begun a few years back proctor and gamble which is one of the largest advertisers in the world decided that they would run a little experiment they were gonna take about two hundred million dollars of digital ad spending and just cut it out of their budget to see what happens. Proctor and gamble said they were doing this. Because of concerns over brand safety and the proliferation of botts which can pollute the data on ad impressions and the end result was fascinating basically said that there was no noticeable impact on their bottom line again the ad industry. We'll have a lot of explanations for why this might be or for why there's a lot of value in advertising beyond short-term sales figures but proctor and gamble is a big player even if they are wrong even to a small degree. They're the ones whose money drives the advertising ecosystem. What would happen if this turned into a mass movement among advertisers. One shouldn't underestimate the size and reach of the advertising ecosystem. The sports you watch on. Tv supported by ads. The journalism you consume supported by at least much of it. Google maps and google drive and while google supported by ads as well as facebook and instagram and twitter. Nearly everything else you consume online and don't pay for including this cast just about every other podcast. You listen to. Advertising is also important for tim. Wong whose day job is researching artificial intelligence and machine learning some of the most cutting edge research in the world is being funded by ads right if you think machine learning and a is going to have a huge impact a huge impact in the world that is from economist. Travel to medical research and diagnosis. You may want to think about what it means that most of it is subsidized through this infrastructure. So there's lots and lots of links through the economy. That are not always obvious. But i think are thinking through because it points how widespread a downturn could be so if there is an advertising bubble canopy deflated in slow controlled. Way to avoid massive economic unraveling. Tim wong thinks so but change won't come from the industry players. They have too much incentive to keep selling it's got to be driven by the buyers one of the groups that has the most to lose our people who theoretically might be wasting a lot of money on advertising but wong does not think the buy side pressure will be enough because i think one of the biggest problems in the spaces that there is no objective. Third party evaluator of some of these claims claims. That is about ad efficacy. And so what i advise is kinda punk rock n d e r. The nba er is the national bureau of economic research. What does wong's punk rock version. Look like it's basically a research group that is willing to be a little bit of a troll to the advertising industry and so again. how do we throw off the veil reduce the passage in the marketplace. You really need a dedicated group of people who are doing good research on this run where you want is a handbrake where you can slowly bring down the momentum in the market so that it can deflate without exploding there are of course. Many people and institutions already doing research on advertising spending. But let's be honest. Most of them have someone's thumb on the scale and conventional wisdom. Isn't the only thing that someone like tim. Wong is challenging. It's also the billions of advertising. Dollars that dr trillions of dollars of market value. So it takes some courage to suggest those billions and trillions may not be kosher one of my favorite arguments. That people are using right now. Is you know. Companies wouldn't put money into this if it didn't work so isn't that proof that the ads actually work. That in fact is exactly what we heard earlier. From the unilever veteran keith weed the fact that coke and dove and ford have been around for decades and the fact that companies like unilever spend billions suggests that maybe advertising does work which is kind of crazy. Circular mind maze. If you think about it. But i do think that again. This is very parallel to the kinds. Psychology to had driven market bubbles in the past. One reason to suspect that ads do work. Well is the underlying assumption that firms like unilever who buy so much. Advertising are as econ. One one textbooks tell us profit maximize irs. So why would they waste so much money. Any economists that tells you that firms are profit maximizing is not ever worked with firms. That again is steve levitt. The realistic picture of is that firms are composed of people and all of the foibles and shortcomings that people exhibit in their everyday life. They bring those to work with them. We s steve to dallas the berkeley economist. Who worked for a time at ebay. What he thought of levitz take on the non profit maximizing behavior of allegedly profit maximizing firms as an economist hearing you say that causes my stomach to hurt but at the same time. I know that you are absolutely correct to dallas. By end of his time at ebay had come to think that his cynical view of advertising didn't go far enough he recalls the time ebay asked him to measure the efficacy of affiliate advertising. Think of bloggers who put in links to say company websites. Well we worked closely with the senior director in charge of spending the money on that and after two our intensive meeting. We figured out a way to do that to do that. Meaning to measure whether these affiliate links were really worth buying he turned to me and said you know steve if your results look as bad as they did for paid search. I'm not going to believe your numbers now. I was obviously shocked because it made me realize that religion and not science is. What's winning this battle. But then i realized that it's something a lot more profound and for which. I actually have a lot of compassion. If you're working on something for ten twenty twenty five years this is part of your identity and this is part of what you believe in. And if i'm going to prove that what you thought worked so well in ways that you don't quite understand because you're not a statistician or an attrition and you have to take it at face value. What are you going to believe your gut tells you that what you've been doing for the last twenty years is really influential or some egghead academic. That's showing you a bunch of equations that you don't understand and is claiming that you're wrong. This digital advertising issue is just part of a bigger conversation about the power of modern technology companies for their first few decades. They were pretty much given free reign. But now they are facing scrutiny over the breadth and depth of their power power both seen and unseen the. Us government has brought a major antitrust case against google facebook youtube twitter and frankly thousands of digital platforms and repositories stand accused of promoting misinformation and or mishandling user. Information given all that society probably deserves a better answer than a lot of companies. Pay a lot of money for advertising so it must work. I think the question isn't necessarily do want it internet with ads or without ads. That again is tim. Wong the question is do you want an internet. That's just based on a huge monoculture. that's largely funded through ads. We're the most powerful companies use ads and we're vc's don't choose to invest if you don't use ads right and i couldn't believe suggest like no. The kind of internet that i want to see is internet. That has a bigger diversity of business models and where ads don't suck all the air out of alternative business models. I just think that's a much more robust market. I think it's more stable market over time. And i think it's one that leads to much better at socially and so i think that's my vote. Which is internet that accepts many different ways of making money. We should also say that just as different ways of making money there are many many many different forms and styles and purposes of advertising over these past two episodes. We've talked about two of the biggest ad marketplace's tv and digital but there are of course many advertising channels and within all these channels are countless variations local ads versus regional or national adds calls to action versus brand building ads about price versus ads about quality ads for new products or services versus established ones. Ads meant to inspire or entertain versus. Adds it just deliver information personally. Those are the ads. I respond to most learning some information. I didn't know about some product or service that sounds useful for fun for me or my family. I can think of at least eight or ten things. I bought after first learning about them by voicing the advertisements that go on this podcast. Our business partners have told us that one reason. The podcast industry has grown so much lately because advertising is particularly effective on podcasts given the intimacy of the medium. I have no idea if this is really true. But i want to believe it is. Why wouldn't i. It's my livelihood so you could say this puts me on both sides of the fence true believer and skeptic at the same time one might say. This is a sign of intellectual laziness. The move right out of upton sinclair. But i'm gonna go f scott fitzgerald instead. Here's how he wants. But the test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold to oppose ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function assuming i retain that ability for at least a bit longer. We will be back next week with another episode of freakonomics radio until then take care of yourself and if he can someone else do. Radio is produced by stitcher. And w productions this episode was produced by daphne chen our staff also includes alison. Craig low mark mcklusky. Greg rippin xactly conceit. Married to duke. And matt hickey are. Intern is immaterial and we had helped this week from james foster. Our theme song is mr fortune by the hitchhiker's all the music was composed by the lease scare. You can get freakonomics radio on any podcast app. If you want the entire back catalogue use the stitcher app or go to freakonomics dot com freakonomics. Radio can also be heard on many. Npr stations around the country. as always. thanks for listening. And i will measure the success of the book based on. How much pisses everybody off and on that front. I'm glad to report that. We definitely have had ad tech people being like at guys in idiot vessels music to my ears stitcher.

ebay google dallas facebook keith weed Tim wong Steve levitt two hundred fifty billion doll six hundred billion dollars trillion dollars three hundred million dollars anna tuchman twenty three billion dollars eighty percent ninety eight percent Duffner steve unilever Steve terrell della yahu
201: Robin Hood, Flippy, and the web ad bubble

Smashing Security

1:12:43 hr | 4 months ago

201: Robin Hood, Flippy, and the web ad bubble

"Hey Everybody Carol here this is our weekly shout out to just a few of our very incredible Patriot supporters this week shoutout goes to. SASKIA mulder. John Janice binds love. July. Devon branch. Stanley car, US. Lakes could send your. Check Davis Jeffrey Beauregard Peter. Baird. Thank you having your support means the world to us and we extend our extreme. Thanks. If you want to join US mazing community of Patriot supporters, all you gotta do is go to smashing security dot com for slash patriot. All right. Let's get this show on the road. See it's all part of the So they've got someone NPR working for them. They got a campaign manager that has built this whole little thing up Ziga form of criminals. Social. Responsibility. Up. Giving back. Smashing security episode two, hundred and one Robin Hood flippy and the Web I'd bubble with Carol -Tario and grand, coulee? Hello Hello and welcome to smashing security episode two, hundred one my name clearly is nice ring to it two thousand. Two Thousand One, two, hundred, one I'm Carl -Tario a podcast Odyssey. And of course. We have just celebrated episode two hundred not only did we ever fab website last week with Maria amasses but some people will have seen us live with their own eyes on our youtube livestream Okay Graham you know what it was quite fine. Do you know what it felt like to me that livestream found like one of my old house parties that I had in the olden days before many of us had children and got married and got important at work. Do you remember those days it was always crazy and you kind of with how did that all happen? What how is seven hours gone by the only difference is that the police wouldn't cooled. Burned down there was no fire department. You're right. We will have expecting that to happen there wolf Ross to be swatted. livestream but we survived and we have some fantastic guests as well. Yeah and you guys anyone of you who missed it his this but you can see it. It's still obviously on Youtube for the rest of its life. You'll never live it down. That's right. Smashing security dot com slash live. We'll take you there and you see it and follow the live chatters will of the hundreds of people who are watching it at the time, which was really great to see so many folks. And Crow we are joined this week by an extra special guest only yes. Brand new guest is mentioned security Tim Hong Tim tell us about yourself what do you do and? Why are you here? Well thanks for having me on the show Yeah. My name is Tim Wong. I'm a writer and researcher based in New York and just out with a new book entitled subprime Attention Crisis which basically argues that the money machine at the center of the Internet. A total garbage when you take a look at it all we're GonNa talk about it during your section. Aren't we tim I believe so excellent. Socorro. What we got coming from show this quick. Well I. Thanks to this week sponsor future last pass an immersive labs their support help us give you this show for free. Now, coming up on today's show Graham talks of a digital Robin Hood who may not be up to any good tim. We'll be telling us just how we are getting manipulated online and I'll introduce you to flippy and roar you may WanNa stay at arm's length though. Also we have a great special interview with me by gun dirt or groomed it depending on from where you hail he's a global intelligence guy recorded future and know what Pretty Smart Graham Shapiro. All this and much more coming up on this episode of smashing security. Chums, chums, I feel like best into song. What does this mean for? Through to. Robin Herd Robin Hood Right in through the Glen. Yes. I'm going to give you all of the song. because. That are once again people on the Internet who are robbing from the rich and giving to the poor specifically. Yeah. That happens all the time on the Internet. Well, that's what's happening all the time. Well, it happens of course, in Myth we've Robin Hood, and maybe it is happening on the Internet as well because rent somewhere gang targeting large corporate. Networks, they're encrypting data, they're asking for huge amounts of money with their ransom demands that's not unusual in itself but what's happening with this particular ransomware gang a gang called the dark side grew oh serious. I. Know S names. So it was a bit scary. Your they have. Do you think they do the kind of what was it called none of Bringing Fart Keyword. Brain. You know to try just coin two words together. That sounds spooky dark side. I. I don't know how you feel about this timber whenever I hear a cybercrime gang name a little bit disappointed that they're. So an imagined, it's always daugh- this'll. Dark, then Jerrell. One of these sort of world wrestling federation kind of names to instill fear in rather than Fluffy Unicorn Yeah you don't think it should be you should think it should be more optimistic brightness. Rainbow in clouds be better anyway dark side. What they do is, of course, they are stealing gigabytes of sensitive data hr data data from your finance to Pomerania payroll details, business plans, even commercially sensitive information they're given you plenty of incentive to pay because your data isn't just encrypted and locked up away from you. They also ran their own website on the dark web accessible via the tool browser and their publishing even press releases on that site. Just this week they said, they were only targeting profitable big company so far nothing terribly unusual that most stuff we've heard about before. Huddle guys huddle. Got A business idea seriously do right. Don't you think we should start pedaling new identities like properly right. So for people that are targeted by something like this and all their real data's put up, they need a new identity effectively to operate online. Otherwise, they're going to be pinned and prodded at every opportunity to say, oh, well, weren't you hacked or oh, actually your numbers already been used by other people or are you sure you're at where you say you are right? Oh I see set up a new identity for them, sell it to them. So you're actually saying the ultimate end user is the past new by going witness protection under your guard. That's that's the suggestion. Not The company is that correct? I'm just saying if this were to happen to me, that's what I'd WanNa do crow. You'll be changing your identity every couple of weeks in another breach. Even be able to remember who you are cost you a fortune in new business cards. Imagine it be horrendous Conti Right. Well. Call, me Martha. Well. What's odd is the dark side group. The ransomware game have issued a Presley saying that they want to make the world a better place. The. Now. How do you think how do you think of other than doing a charity single? How do you think the dockside gang may want to make the world a better place? There were ransom again, the obvious way seems to me is they would announce they're no longer gonNA hack companies and install ransomware that seems to me if you really want to make the world a better place stop committing cybercrime, right that big idea and thing else they could do how they to install patches how if they were to secure the systems I hacked into would that be a better thing to it would would they be able to leave a logo on the site say patch by duck side Or something I don't know I. think that's actually Kinda. Cute. It's a bit like if you're a gentleman art thief and you leave a monogrammed glove at the scene of the crime, everyone knows that you've been there I suspect the legally it'll be a bit of a sticky pickle. Sorry I. Think it's still will be a crime. Yes because you're still hacking in still not something you want your forum. Yeah. Yeah I think well, this is what dockside doing. What they're doing is they're not leaving behind monogrammed glove or. Or? What they're doing is they're taking the money which they managed to extort out of the hacked companies. And the donating at least some of it to charity. According to a press early, which they issued this week they said, we think that it's fair that some of the money the companies have paid, US will go to charity no matter how bad you think our work is we are pleased to know that we have helped change someone's life. Today we send. It is very bad grammar and press release book mind today. We sounded the first nations doesn't say there's no numbers well, actually they're all numbers. Okay. Kimmy numbers what they've done is they have donated ten thousand dollars right? Two two different charities title Twenty Thousand Dollars Okay. So Tony Kaye. How much they steal well, we don't know exactly how much they still but quite often this gang have requested sums in the millions. Right. So that's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking they may have given away zero point zero one percent of their stolen fortune nothing though right and they wanNA high five. Well. Keeping all of it isn't it really ten when you think man I think it looks pretty bad if that's the case. Yeah. Stealing millions of dollars in only giving a tiny bit away. It undercuts their message, a little bit Jeff Jesus given. You're going to criticize these randomly guys there any making a few million he's making billions are criticized Jeff Jesus as well. Get a Klein. Just the other day my my other half was buying a book and he was on Amazon just said, do we have to buy it from Amazon? Couldn't we just go to our local blackwell's right in Oxford and by there and then he was like, of course, let's do it and then there was the stumbling block of Oh. Now, we have to create an account another website, but I think it's worth anyway. So we're going to try in support businesses that do things well, like proper bookstores proper roast replaces proper. Yeah well, good for you. Might not I think more people should perhaps consider doing that? Yes they should Graham they should. Interesting you. Anyone. Gentleman anyway these payments were made are us based service called the giving block and this is a service which basically acts as a proxy for roundabout sixty seven different charities and nonprofits around the world. They claim that they give away for crypto currency millionaires away to make charitable donations directly to nonprofits and benefit from tax incentives, and you can do it kind of anonymously although to charities you got the money were children international. Out, to protect children and their families and communities around the World Nossa a charity called water project who are building reliable water systems across Africa. So you can donate directly but these two donations were made fire the giving block, and what's unclear at the moment is whether the given block is able to tell who exactly gave that money. What we do know is the giving block tweeted that she tweeted before perhaps they realized that criminals donate the money or someone's just made a very generous donation of ten thousand dollars each to to lucky nonprofits. So I didn't realize it was a ransomware gang there. Oh. Yeah. No no doubt. No doubt. I imagine they're not in cahoots that would be a bit of A. Situation to be in should that happen but what I wonder okay. So here's conspiracy heck spiracy hat. Yes. Right. Dark side. If they're in the millions, they obviously know they're tax responsibilities wherever they are. They may have claimed tax back for this donation. Ryan which case that's how you find them might be, will you do suddenly get a receipt from the giving block whatever it is their intention to use that when they make. Took statement or not. Is Unclear. You GOTTA pay tax. You report your profession on your taxes. ransomware gang. But even if you make the money illegally still have to pay taxes, but I know that in the states is to be true. So it's right on your on your tax forms in the states You know they ask you to report how much received in bribes over the year and you know the Irish just wants to cut after all. Well look the other way as long as you pay A. Couple of questions which have sprung to my mind while reading about this story in some of the news reports I one is, why is this gang giving the poll why they stained from? Well, we know whether they're stealing from the rich I. Think we work that one out. But why are they making these donations to charity digital crowd control? Would you mean? Well, it makes people think they're not that bad right. So people don't get pissed off. What we hang on, hang on I think he's still gonNA be pissed off if you get hacked by rents. And if. They make donations. I wanted to know they hacking individuals or they hacking companies know they target companies they? Become the it's all part of the. So they've got someone NPR working for them. They've got a campaign manager that is built this whole little thing up I think it's a form of criminal social responsibility you know. Giving back. Well I wonder if it's to alleviate their guilt so they can sleep a little bit easier at night wherever that Sir thing which might be happening. I think important to remember that the victims of these corporate ransomware tax they're still made of individuals there may be people who lose their jobs are be people whose privacy is destroyed by email archives, and so forth being published online people might lose their jobs as a consequence of one listened to this show. Thinks these guys are heroes dude? No but I wonder why why they're doing it seems we and the other thing is, what should the charities do? What's interesting is children international. So one of the charities which received ten thousand dollars from this ransomware gang, they say that they're going to return the money we'll do not play who got into. The money to. Right because they don't necessarily know I know 'cause then someone could come up and go I. Hey, it's mine I gave it to you why. I'm wondering because we we can't be certain where the cryptocurrency where that particular currency was stolen from. and. So should it go back to the giving block? Should the money may be given to charity? Would we see one charity saying look? We don't want this money, but we'll pass it onto another charity. Because, we feel bad about except it's peculiar isn't it? It'd be like a big bag of cash arriving on your doorstep is a charity and you look into these charities at all. Yes okay. I'll put up links insurance that legit charities chrome, smoke. Around I'm my little journal Brain is still the criminals laundering money. The criminals were really acting out of the goodness of their heart they would have just donated the money not announced it. By announcing it, they put all the charities in a hard spot where they have to return the money. I agree STF YOU WANNA to give money. And STF you I wonder whether they. For some reason publicized and again because of course, this has gotten some attention and maybe they're fed up of some of the other ransomware. Covered on smashing security I oh, for goodness would come back to this well. We felt great in. So we did weep tunnel dirty work. Well. You did. A better come up with a better story. Well let's let's move on. Let's move on. Tim. What do you want to talk to us about what have you been up to and what your area of interest? So I'M A, I'm a researcher as I mentioned based in New York and I've been involved in tech policy for a long time work. Google was part of a joint Harvard, MIT project on the ethics of AI and the thing I've been really into recently is a very wonky in fact. So wonky and boring that most people don't think about it on a day-to-day basis. Topic is ads and programmatic advertising online and what it means for the future of the Internet. So just to be clear programmatic advertising as compared to regular Sorta, I guess you'd call it static advertising. What's the difference? What is programmatic advertising basically when I say A lot of people always think about you know shows like mad men or you know the old advertising, a bunch of men smoking in a room saying you know somewhat offensive things basic. And what's interesting is that you know the modern day world of online advertising looks nothing like that. In fact, it looks a lot more like the New York Stock Exchange or the Nasdaq basically, you have these vast marketplaces where algorithms are creating attention. You know in Split second intervals, millions and billions of times a day. And and this kind of way of doing advertising to buy and sell advertising I, mean is is referred to as programmatic advertising in the industry. Okay. I'm. So you're saying that this doesn't actually work. Yeah. Tell us how it doesn't work. Tell us what you discovered in researching So it's really fascinating Maybe by point of of personal background I I used to work. Google as I mentioned and you know excuse me Goo Google, they what they do oh, your small search company based out in California we've aside quite large sideline in that. Goggle. Yes. I think the fascinating thing is, is the power of advertising almost taken as a given right we have all this data about people. We can target a message exactly where. People are most vulnerable and get them to buy something right And what's interesting is I think even when you talk to people who are like really critical of the tech industry, they tend to buy the same thing they say, Oh, my God mark. Zuckerberg, he's got a mind control ray right can reach into our brains and control what we think. And you know intuitively maybe an argument that makes sense. Right? Which is okay. We have lots of data about people. We can target these messages. Why wouldn't it the very influential and I think there's Two may be stories that I'll tell that I think you might find interesting. So the first one is in two thousand and seventeen proctoring gamble right? Which is one of the biggest advertisers in the world. decided that it was gonna cut out a little bit from a digital advertising budget about two hundred, million dollars out of his system. And they mean chump change. Compared to a ransomware gang. This is this is way more money as what's fascinating is they reported just a year later that there was absolutely no change to their bottom line right that no change in sales occurred. In fact, even announced that some of the cost efficiencies meant that their advertising was reaching about ten percent more people than it usually did. Spend, still need washing powder and the restaurant you know they're going to buy regardless right what's fascinating is in many cases, some of the academic experiments done on this it suggests that all of this data, what it really gets, you is the ability to advertise to people who would have already bought your product anyways. And so ultimately ends up being a lot of kind of wasted money but you don't even have to get to the question of whether or not ads are effective or not. It Google even came out with this study a few years back suggested close to sixty percent of or even never seen on the Internet they're delivered. Below the or the hidden or you're there otherwise placed in a place that people don't notice sixty percent imagine any other market we're fifty percent of things. Don't actually work. It's it's amazing that it works at all. So the web page is rendering these things but because you're looking at the top of the webpage because you haven't necessarily scrolled down. Extraordinary, isn't it? Yeah. Do you feel that? Are causing any impact in this market or is it completely unrelated? Sure. Yeah. I've blockers are really big portion of the the worry in the advertising markets There's actually an amazing quote I can read in just the second from the representative of the online advertising industry. Because I think the are very worried that you know ad blocking his up on browsers. Ad Blocking is up on phones, and it really is cramping the ability for these add businesses to actually buy and sell ads. So you know one of the things I talk about in the book is this a big bubble. At some point is going to pop and one way you could imagine it popping is basically. Essentially, sufficient numbers of people blocking adds to the point where the market actually can't function anymore. Right. So what happens then I'm way I have to say you know being part of the Tech Cyber Industry whatever I'm really quite proud that people started using I block her seriously but I suspect that misplaced I think the reason people use that walkers is because the ads are can annoying right and they got so overwhelmed by them. They had just do something and they talked to one person their family that new about tack and got it set up because the advertisers got so desperate to get people's attention. Didn't they? They went kind of overboard a lot of them. Those began to appear and of course, they're slowing down your browser to yeah and some of them some of the companies now are you know they're entering a kind of unholy alliance with some of the AD blockers? Ultimately what they're doing is they're paying the ad blockers to let their ads through. So ironically, somebody's adblocker companies have become ad networks onto themselves but I think. In some ways I think that is that is an exception rather than the rule in the space I think the overall story that you see when you look at the data is the ad blocking is up all over the place. So what's the future for advertising? Do you think digital automated adds to the problem we have to go back old school? Or Yeah. Money, there's a lot of money being wasted if all this is what you're saying is. One way of looking at it is just the world of of Ad Fraud or click fraud right and so this is a scam in which you know you try to basically pull money out at the advertising ecosystem by creating A. Device farm that clicks on ads or watches youtube videos every day. And I think the size of the fraud there is force third research company came out with a fears back about fifty six percent of display ads that traffic is all fraud basically. You know some people have said to this book. They say, Oh, well is the main thing I need to worry about that Mark Zuckerberg has less billion dollars if this market crashes and I, always point out that there's just so much on the Internet that relies on adds to subsidize it. We can talk first about just media and journalism in general right which is very, very dependent on the system, but you think about things like Like Google sheets Google Docs, right. Those are all subsidized by ads I used to work in a I and a lot of the labs doing the most cutting edge research and machine learning are loss leaders for those companies they're being subsidized by the AD business, and so I do think that if there is a problem in this market, we would see ripple effects in many places that we wouldn't expect. That's a really good point. Isn't it and what? What I find interesting as well as that is. Also. We hear all the time about this huge amount of data which is being collected by these big tech companies about us but you're saying it's not actually helping sell stuff. It's not actually as effectively as we imagined is, is that right I mean would they be just as successful if they? Specifically trying to target us we. Begs the question right I was on a panel last week where someone said so why are we building this enormous surveillance infrastructure? The whole thing doesn't work at all. And it is right right. Grandma. You know there's a professor by the name of Allesandro Christie that's been doing some really interesting research into. Okay. Do ads that are targeted with cookies. Work Better or worse than ads that are not targeted right and when he finds his effectively, it's the same. It's really at the margin that this this makes a difference and it's partially because the data's not very good. A lot of is very faulty. But. There's also just a question about whether or not all. This targeting really gets you to get a message to the person at a point where they're ready to buy. So I think there are a lot of questions about this data I. Think one of the reasons it's been collected. One of the reasons we built this system is for longtime the digital advertising industry has wanted to show that is better than earlier generations of ads right? Oh we're better than billboards better than magazines were better than television. One way of proving that they collect lots and lots of data and I think there's a there's a certain bit of theater with that data. That has kind of incentivize this collection even though it may not actually amount too much in the end i. once had a boss, a boss's boss's boss, but they lived in Burris data and. Collect it and you know, I seriously. It was probably eighty twenty right and I suspect then when they manipulated got eight twenty again by the time it got to whatever stakeholder it asked for it. I'm sure. So, far off the real point you know. I. Agree I felt the artifice in this is. Thinking about on years ago. Let me understand. Your other people were sort of summarizing your data in order to present it better. It's their bosses. I'm grabbing data in picking and choosing the data I want my boss be happy with then my boss picks the numbers they want make them look good and then their boss it goes all. My life is fantastic. This is great and it's just the whole thing to pilot shit like go to the WHO's during the been going it's everything okay or not. Okay. You know like just ask I, agree I mean fascinating story that I've been watching, which is relevant to I'm sure a lot of people who listen to your podcast is. The British privacy regulator just came out with its final report on the Cambridge analytica scandalous and I think one of the most interesting takeaways from that report was the conclusion that for all of the data, Cambridge a hat, and for all their claims of the power of psychographic advertising, it's actually unclear whether or not any of their messaging made a difference, right? And I think there's one way of looking at it, which is okay. So no harm no foul. I actually take the position, which is there's even more reason why we should be uncomfortable about this right that it's a privacy intrusion but also like a meaningless privacy intrusion ultimately, yes we're going to be like like my parents, my grandparents used to watch World War Two films all the time when young. We're going to be those people watching like beep history of misinformation, right? The bubble that happened during our youth is now during guys gray ten years tim me they'll be like forty fifty. Thank you very much ouch. I'm wonder if the Russians are going to go to Cambridge Analytica having read your book and what some of their money back. and. Didn't work as well as we hoped. That's right. I mean, it's irrelevant to you know it is relevant to this current discussion that we're having around this information. I think a lot of the empirical evidence that we have from say, the two thousand, sixteen US presidential election is that there's really big question as to whether or not any of this Russian interference. Influence votes. Now, that's a different question from whether or not. It's bad for democracy, right? Corrosive institutions but you know maybe we should. We should think about this in a way that doesn't rely on again advertising being this mind control ray should just be wonderful business partners to work with and you know a line with their business views sounds to me like web advertisements. People are installing ad blockers they don't like being tracked online maybe maybe there's some other kind of promotion which people could do maybe something not to block a dozen stop like a podcast perhaps maybe some of that money should be redirected siphon towards quality podcast. You think that would be I. Don't you find sometimes digital as you know when the like so. We know we for example, work with sponsors right and we have sponsored ads where we things. Yes. The same voices but there's a lot of podcast there who have this digital kind of inclusion of ads and sometimes the sounds way louder or the voices very different and I, do think the advertising industry in one way of reading their current actions right which. Are Let's get advertising into everything else. Right. Let's get it into audio. You know let's get it into apps in some ways it's it's It's the sense of desperation right? They want to expand their businesses places that aren't being so corroded by AD brought blocking ad fraud and so on and so forth. you know the problem though is that search And display advertising, it really is a financial rocket ship right? We don't have anything else that scales in the same way, and so this a question that even if these other forms of advertising you know are effective are good are free from the problems that plague the existing system whether or not it will be enough really to kind of make up the difference. well, tell you what we wouldn't be able to make this show without our sponsors you know. So that's the other side of it is there's going to be a lot of businesses and a lot of people that are dependent upon some of the funding that comes from that. Yeah and I think it's part of my worry too. Again, I'm not worried about whether or not mark Zuckerberg has one must mansion right I am worried about only by yeah I know it's very harsh of me to say that but. I'm worried about you know I mean the covert related downturn in the media right now is a great example of this like we have an ecosystem which is so brittle that even the most apparently stable longstanding media entities can't even retain their staff for two months of a downturn that strikes me as a structural issue for sure that I worry a lot about to that I'll tell you what I worry about I. Worry about irradiating annoying jarring voices. Coming onto a podcast and Everything. Kroll what's your story this week? How long you been planning? To many try at least Hans Okay. So so I'm a big Fan of the old American style hamburger. You know like a big propane slab. With all the veggies and the sauces and the perfect bread bun thing. It's a true thing of beauty can be just slap a little baby food seen on the side and that's me have put what? Maybe Patine Oh Putin your not religious I was not aware of that phrase. Oh Really Putin. Putin but you said, Baby Putin you're having a burger. You don't want a huge one. No that would just be crazy. I thought she was talking about Vladimir Putin nappy. Routine and yeah. And part of the fun eating Burger. My mind is doing it in an bonafide diner. You know the kind you see there's that horrible us food show. What's it called beefy guy with the PEP platinum hair drives a little hairdresser. Car Stuffs himself full of food is it man versus food? Is Diners drive ins and dives or something like? Oh Yeah. He goes around meets these like real proper shifts, middle chefs, burger joint chefs but it's like a calling to these people to craft. It's an art form making a great Burger I make a great burger until you what its it's like high end art. This it is it will be in the Smithsonian Monday. So. My question to you my question to you both. Robots create art. Okay. Meet flippy. Meet flippy the first autonomous robotic kitchen assistant, what they can learn from its surroundings in acquire new skills over time. This sounds like the kind of thing that some crazy expert Google would have dreamt up. Is. This your latest initiative? Yeah. No comment. Can know what you're picturing right I don't WanNA burst your bubble hair right? Because Mizuho. Robotics people behind flippy didn't make flippy look like a stereotypical Burger master right? You're not going to confuse with Bob from Bob's Burgers. which the cutest burger cartoon chef ever. But no, this is basically an arm it's an arm on a trolley. It cooks perfectly every time in boasts one, hundred, thousand continuous. Hours can work grill require recognizes and monitors food items, switches between cleaning and cooking. It's all cloud based, which is really cool monitors and learns and complies with Standards Works with people and other where in other words, it's a way cheaper way more reliable way more efficient option to hiring a human being it seems. But you turn have that human touch to you. Agree. He live. With me did we to this work did you ever go to the hotel in New York? We had to go to New York. Yes. Being to the hotel, right? Yes. Didn't go and stay there because it had this huge arm that put your. Way there was like a robot valet wasn't it took your suitcase. Yet Tim you must have seen it. You live in New, York. Yes I've actually I think of walks by. The name sounds familiar but yeah, no, no I town somewhere about I've never seen it in action that I have wondered what the big. I hardly did as well because while I was there at broke down constantly. Literally, there was no human to take your bags from you had to wait in this huge line in the thing would get stuck or the bag was to being to go through the gap or the thing was turned off accidentally and it was just ridiculous I mean people are always worried about robots replacing jobs but now there's two jobs, right? There's the there's the valet and then there's the person who to fix the valley. Now now flip he's been around for a few years actually made a few headlines. Like, back in two thousand, Seventeen Lisa Vaas who's been on smashing security before she wrote a naked security that flippy could literally flip two thousand burgers a day and back then that caused a problem because human workers couldn't keep up with it. Oh, I see. So there pull on the production. Yeah. So they're like flipping burgers GONNA put the so listeners, they'll be loads of links in the show notes you can go watch little videos, read more about it. It's fascinating. Do of things to slow down like know trying to mind crypto currency or something like that. I mean, why? Why just doing burgers? I'm very grateful. You brought a security angle because I have very, very little security to talk about this very much gram. He's got my back flipping isn't going to get hacked flippy doesn't have a vulnerability don't worry move over flippy make way for war the second generation flippy. This is another robot arm, but it's on a rail literally letting the robot arm swoosh from cooking station to cooking station a bit Lake Tom. Cruise and his underpants risky business sliding across the wood floor. Well, not like that that's kind of like that. But Not really Tom Cruise is gross. Guy He's not my. He's no jeff he's known Jeffey. Jump Jeff. Goes our chances of getting him on the PODCAST. Right. Don't do not invited. So roar floppies daddy can prep hundreds of orders in an hour. Thanks to a combination of cameras safety scanners. It can obtain frozen food and Cook it without assistance from any human team member, right? And don't worry right it alerts all the workers when orders are ready to be served. Right can just hear it shelley please pick your order shelly. Please pick up your order shelly now p shelley to tell management shelley shelly now. You say worry I am worried with with Flip No. This one's rule. Where's where's Rory's job satisfaction coming from one day he's GonNa get fed up flipping to. Take over the world. Listen. Roar can cook chicken tenders Chicken Wings Tater tots French fries waffle fries chicken sticks, potato wedges, corn dogs, popcorn shrimp chicken, and onion rings. That's it. Go bless America. So. Amazing. And so so see all these connected smart robots that work with hot oil and friars some connected to the Internet. And I focused on flippy and roar and the food industry but. Really, there few industries that aren't considering how they can robotizing. Because it's cheaper more efficient, more reliable than all US humans. And you know me so lady doom and gloom. I'm thinking flip he's getting a lot of press here. Their privacy agreement is the is laughably small just. But when you order a burger from flippy, you know given it your date of birth presumably I you know you know. Me Given it since informational you're saying is, can I have a burger place? Well okay. That's true. Maybe. Dating. Him. Into, when you go into a burger joint. You have to log in actually and there's a there's a password requirement. It's my phone number says, Crow, she says the Burgum. Turn on factor indications and just get a burger. It's. So anyway, I'm looking around to try and I'm looking for something that I've never looked before which was robotics and it security Basically, as I predicted as I thought, robots are just like any other device in the whole wide world so. I'm saying to the robotics industry, which is obviously on a growth path right now what with pandemic? Those people don't want to be maybe working in hot kitchens companies are trying to think how can I keep business people? NOT PEOPLE GOT EAT And the robotics industries on growth. But I say take heed guys take heat. As. You're all chomping on the bit to get your wears out you know and all those mega contracts. So you can sell up go by Jeff bezos neighboring mansion. You gotta take security seriously because like Lanao dealing with things like oil dick restaurants where people are hanging out what if they start juggling the oil for example, a Tom Cruise in cocktail. That's that's the Tom Cruise movie you're thinking of now. People Are Thinking Oh, crawl you're being crazy. It's not like anyone ever had tessler anything like that. Not like anyone ever tact anyone to actually takes security seriously in got away with it. I think it's a fantastic idea. Let's get robots to make food for. So that we forget how to make a decent burger. Let's give them naked flames and oil. And tell them to get on with it and let's let's most important. Let's back. That's connect them to the Internet what could possibly go wrong. and. The thing is you can make like there's win win on all sides. It's cheaper for the restaurant by like landslides I think it costs thirty grand a year to run, and then you've got like a running fee thirty grandma then running fee per year sas. Restaurant Burns down of course. Yes. Yeah and then you'll be but the way they're taking on a new US folk as people that are feeling a bit may be a bit short in the wallet these days since work has been maybe bit drier than husband in previous years, they're offering three dollar burger because they can afford to do that not have to pay staff. I think you'll think into small grow. I think getting robots to make these burgers isn't good enough I think we need stock making robots to eat the burgers for us. Why should we have to get up and go to Burger joint? Why can't we get a robot to do that for us I wished wonder if they have funny voices or if they talk right because I had ways on my phone for a bit which is kind of bought by Google now. Oh, thanks. Thanks Tim and. and. To be clear, I don't work at the company. But I'm just. Going to be. Mistakes and on my ways, right for my it was my gf to get me for me to be I used to put into Elvis mode and there'd be some. Right. So I'm imagining these robot arm people are going to get bored of them and they're gonNA, want him to have better personalities. And then you're gonNA. Hear like you're going to hear you know maybe you'll have Graham in one of the arms site. Don't think if you've got Elvis the robot burgers few that you're actually going to get more burgers delivered to the customers I, think L. Spooky consuming them. The robot will feed itself then it's Okay we better stop before we go. Further. into the pit of crazy. Securities this week by recorded future, they empower organisations revealing unknown threats before they impact business helping teams respond to alerts ten times faster. Recorded future does this by automatically collecting and analyzing intelligence from Tech Call Open Web and dark web sources will you too can access the up to the minute security intelligence allows recorded future clients to make fast confidence security decisions buying stolen that free browser extension recorded future, express go and grab it. Now, a smashing security dot com slash recorded future that smashing security dot com slash recorded future. Smashing, security is also sponsored by immersive labs. They have created a free book it's called aligning cyber skills to the mitre. Framework the idea behind this free e book is it gives you a guided tour of how the Mitre attack framework can totally simplify and strengthen your cybersecurity skills strategy. It literally is a Goto framework learn more at immersive labs, dot com for slash smashing and things to immersive labs for sponsoring the show. This episode to Smush, insecurity is sponsored by last pass. Everyone knows about las posses Password Mench? End. USERS, but it's also a great solution for businesses. In fact, tens of thousands of companies rely upon last pass to protect themselves lost percent. BRYCE simplifies password management for companies of all sizes and helps you secure your workforce. So whatever the size of your business go and check it out, go on visit Laos past dot com slash smashing to find out more and thanks to last participant in the show. We'll come back. Can you join us on our favorite part of the show the part of the show that we liked cool the week. Pick of the week. Pick of the week is the show everyone chooses singing with like Kobe funding storybook TV show movie, a record, a podcast, a website, or an APP whatever they wish doesn't have to be security related necessarily. Better. Not Be well might because the week this week is not security related. But of course, we've all been having the strangest year imaginable. Have we not? A lives have been turned upside down and one of the things that some people missing Wilma I. Wonder if you chapter missing it as well is flying. Do you miss get? Planed Putin around. The highlight of my life was oh. Yeah. No I loved that I loved flying over to Vancouver from the UK Yeah on the eleven hour flight over. So awesome the money TV and this tiny little chair and yes. Awesome. Well, well, Karol do not fear. Does. There is a new I guess you can call a game it's a flight simulator. It claims to be the most accurate flight simulator that you have ever experienced its cord airplane mode and it delivers all the thrills of a real time six, our commercial airline flight. In. First Class in coach class. But. You do have a window seat. So, what what is? You know in a normal flight simulator it assumes you're the pilot, but but it's not like I'm missing being the pilot because I never I never sat in the front they never let me do that now airplane mode recreates. The monotony. Of City. Yeah we've rubbish food in real time so you can. You can travel for six hours between hundred JFK. New York new. You Tim to rescue Vick. We can go on a two and a half journey from two and a half hour journey from. Jeff Cater. Nova Scotia for people that are missing their all guests, COSMO, cosmopolitan lifestyles, some people, some people love toe that. And once you're bored with this game. THEY'LL BE RANDOM DELAYS TURBULENCE BAD WIFI occasional screaming. Babies. You can you? Can you think I'm joking this is for real I'm going to. Play it for honest. Pinkies haven't actually played it yet. But I've seen it costs ten pounds on steam I'm GONNA put Lincoln and you're not willing to spend the tenor but your hope our listeners spend the tenor for you cheap. You can if you get bored after a couple of hours, you can start explore in the pocket on the back of the seat in front of you, and it's got like an ample airline information card flight safety video, much inflight magazine you can order booze. Now there's a slight problem because this simulation it seems I from what I've raid. It suffered from some bugs. Which means that on some PC's airplane mode has literally been crashing, which hopefully isn't the kind of thing which would real a very. Small very hundred is true. There's bugs in it, but other than that, they're working on the bugs it just happens on some piece there's still collecting a tenor, but still Clinton, an attorney, you can follow another pers- up on steam and there's a video as well. I've linked to a video if you want to find out. I liked the screen shot put in of the trae food meal I might actually that's at my phone backdrop. That trae that pixelated tray of the shitty quests aunt in the shitty peace and the shitty salad with Shitty fricken water I was GONNA say it won't be the same without actually having Ginger Ale and some terrible pretzels. On. But. You know there are people who really love. Flights No. Are you want you remember when we weren't allowed to fly places? Right? We weren't allowed to fly to America whereas now we don't allow Americans to fly to us but. You know but they had some flights which would just go over like the Bay of Biscay and backs the takeoff from Heathrow go round a little bit and then come back and some people would book these things just because they enjoyed going on a flight he wasn't to be in the front so I think for them. This might be the perfect. Kovic safe way of experience, an airplane flight. So my pick of the week is the game airplane mode I haven't played it, but maybe some of you. Know don't have to play it. I just find it amusing. Amusing is enough for me and tickled me enough to make it my pick of the week. So. There you go. Tim. Sure, pick up the week. My pick of the week is a very, very, very, not security related. It's a little bit of an odd story that I'm not sure even if it's a well known within Britain but. Around. The nineteen thirties there was a family in the Isle of Man that claim to be haunted by a Mongoose named Jeff. And a my friend told me the story and the Wikipedia page is incredible and I just anyone check it out but a number of years ago the MIT press put out a book, which is an exhaustive investigation. Of the talking Mongoose and the book is entitled Jeff Exclamation. Point, the strange tale of an extra-special Talking Mongoose. Really. Isn't now can you give any highlights? Isn't funny if you were looked at this, it's it's exhaustive. It's very detailed. But yeah, it's it's a very strange story. Apparently multiple investigators went to the Isle of Man and confirm that there was for a period of time a quote talking Mongoose or quote man weasel as it was referred to. In the British papers at the time and it's still unresolved. The author actually went to go investigate it and it's sort of a paranormal investigation story but probably the most absurd way. Possible. So I haven't read the book because you've been just told me about it but I've just checked wikipedia page and it looks it looks very interesting apparently Jeff, this Mongoose sometimes assumed the role of a cat. Yes ashamed. Among. All the best kind of Talk Mongooses I that's what I would expect actually. Yes. Cases and the owners of this House used feed it escapes and chocolates and bananas and. And weird that MIT spends. Such thing. Like. Students like. Like This looks absolutely fascinating. Well, I i. think that's a pick of the week to. Look into some more grow. What's your pick of the week? All right. Well, Mine's a little bit adult T. so you kids are you people that are a little uncomfortable turnoff now? Dirty, Jimmy. As in route might be smutty. So this is really for all those of you that have daily. Commute. Still And you want it to be a little more exciting, little more risque. And for you, I suggest a podcast, not sticky pickles which you've already subscribe to you're playing. Sticky pickles on. CAST that. Guest of the show braiding and I do second podcast yet where we discuss sticky dilemmas excellent and watch the other person trying wig allowed to them. It's crazy. You're not recommend in sticky because again this week because I do last week but I'm obviously re. Slipped it in there tonight some. Go. This is another one. This one has a much more celebi main voice that of Demi Moore. Now I got a pretty good radio voice, but I bow the voice prowess of the Lady Demi Moore at like just how does she craft voice? The podcast is called Dirty Diana. Right, it's from q code and Diana's played by more. Also, she produces it and Diana's a little frustrated home life's bit shit work. Life's a bitch shit and she's kind of I know sounds like a bit of a control freak. So of course to escape from her carefully created life and dying marriage Diana secretly runs an erotic side-hustle where he meets records, other women's intimate and often. Fancies now I can't. You'll throat what was that? All look after three minutes of listening to the first episodes I. I was blessed ing. But in order to give you guys a proper endorsement unlike Graham I, forced my way all the way to the end. Actually frigging listen to all of it. It's the end of this crow. Lost a couple of minutes I was beat Greg without without any. The storyline. Very good. The acting spirit. Good. The pace is very good and it's dirty and it will definitely give your commute agendas Sekwa. So can I just clarify? Just promoting porn now on our podcast is that what this is audio from Demi Moore Tim's being very quiet. Just took an unexpected turn. Anyway so My dirty pick of the week. Oh, did see that in our ut thing someone called it picking the week. So when someone of the commenters with these which I really liked Anyway. So my dirty pick of the week. Diana apart astrum Kiko check it out. If you share on that filthy bombshell, I think it's time to go to our featured interview which this week is with that chap from recorded future. Isn't it Levi Gundi? Yes, guys. This is really interesting. Seriously you're gonNA love it. You'RE GONNA. Love it. Listen Up. So Levi Gunderman or goon dirt rights. Well, how do you? What do you say what you say if you were being asked your name and say in England I think in England I go with the Americanized version you know it's GonNa hurt but if in Germany I, think it has to be sort of that hard guttural contoured well, Levi good under is a senior vice president of global intelligence and pod guide for recorded future at my first question is global intelligence of what so what is what is what is recorded future? Do just give us a bit of background which. Absolutely. So I have to tell you this story really quickly because I find it amusing. So we were in I was in London last year with record future doing a bit of work in our London office and I was fortunate my family came with me. And I have three sometimes charming children and we were sitting there one nine at the table after work and we were playing cards. and. I had a business card sitting on the table. And my nine year old, he reaches over to grab a card off the deck. And he looks at my business card and he stops sort of frozen. and. He yells and he goes. Your the senior vice president of global elegance. That's that's what I mean. Tire world. That's incredible and I'm only. Cool Yeah. Boy He's in for disappointment. I know. Have, the heart to tell him. But at some point, I'm going to have to. But you know what he's still have respect because of to do some cool stuff. Tell us a bit about the cool stuff. You guys do. So when you think about threat intelligence I think the best way to think about it is if you want really date real time news on financial markets, you go to a Bloomberg. Terminal. And, the coolest thing about recorded future is it's a product. So it software as a service or SAS as we like to say in inside speak. And it is real? Time Threat Intelligence. For the. World. Just like Bloomberg is for financial is very much. What recorded future is and so. We take all kinds of data, unstructured data, structured data, and we we do sourcing a collection of it aggregation of analysis of it to really present something that's very consumable and very. Easy to do something with and we do that through a product, and so it's really from the inception of recorded future. Some very smart guys in Sweden. With Phd's got together and figured out the technology behind it. But in the end, it's really this incredible incredibly powerful product that brings threat intelligence to hundreds and hundreds of clients around the world that need that to be able to better secure their organizations and ultimately reduce risk. So what would be a typical client when they come to you at the you know first time they've heard about you what what kind of questions what are they asking for from you they like we don't know what's going on and we WANNA. Know before it happens is that kind of the kind of question you might get if we sort of understand how a phishing attack works than when we see when that shows up in our inbox in purports to be from? Or NETFLIX's or whatever it may be. We sort of understand when there's something misspelled in the email that, oh, that's that's a phishing attack and we delete that move on. Well for companies. There's so much exposure. They have so many technical assets and they're continuing to build out digital transformation strategies that sort of expand the technology landscape and with that comes increased exposure in an increased risk. So the whole point with threat intelligence is being able to be proactive to understand how adversaries and actors operate so that you can sort of make the countermove before the attack actually happens, and that's really philosophically the whole point behind threat intelligence and it's really becomes so critical. So many clients now recorded future that it sort of industry vertical agnostic. We have clients and food and beverage. We have clients in aviation in public sector in healthcare. Financial Services because everyone understands that it's table stakes. So regardless of what you do, the widgets that you produce security becomes a very basic requirement to actually be able to run any sort of business these days. Okay can I ask maybe a contentious question? I love contentious questions. Let's go there. Okay. So let's say my digital space that I wanNA protect whatever that may be if I compare it to my house and I think about my house being under threat and keep telling me threats coming threats are everywhere but they don't tell me whether it's coming by air through the window via the front door of my back garden whatever. So I'm constantly building fences and alarms and having led lights everywhere to try and protect me from an unknown unknown Sure. But if you have the intelligence to know look, there's a guy in your neighborhood he's. Coming through windows that are left open watch yourself that information can make your job way easier as a homeowner. So my contentious question is, are people actually coming to you to really simplify their jobs because maybe they just need a little break because they're going to know where to look with the information you give him. Yeah. It's a good analogy and I think if we wanted to play that out really what businesses are dealing with today is an army of people that come down the street at night and they try every door on your car they try every door and window on the house. And that sort of one wave break, and then there's a second wave or third wave of people that come down the street and there's less of them. But they're more advanced, and so they will open a storm sewer grate and put an amphibious drone in there and it will follow some pipes in pop up you know out of your toilet in the bathroom. I think as you say in the UK the Lou and it will steal something or it will spy on you and you won't necessarily know it's there right. So there's the problem is. The volume of threats and the volume of actors that perpetrate those threats only increases, and so it is really for companies to try to understand. Yes. We understand that people are testing the doors and testing the windows, but it just goes so much further than that right? It's it the the complexity with which and the speed with which adversaries move means that if if you don't understand those tactics, you don't understand you know the tools and infrastructure they're using that they're using drones that they're using crowbars that they're using You know other types of technology then it becomes very hard to think about how you're asking to defend against it. How can you? How can you build a strategy if you don't know what you're dealing with makes perfect sense. Yeah. Do. You mind if we switch gears to the record. Oh, please. So for our listeners. The record is this news site from recorded future. What? What's your strap line? How do you? Yeah. So it's an independent media. Property is the official label for it, and the address is the record media Adam. JANAF ski. He is the. and. I'm a huge Fan Adam we actually do a podcast together for the podcast is called off the record and I'm having a lot of fun doing that with Adam were were co host and we have a ton of fun but the real worth Adams doing is on the record, and as I said, it's really an independent property and Adam is really looking at new unique takes on security events and a lot of it is supported by recorded future in terms of. analysts, and some of the research we have within the team record future, but it is very much its own. Vehicle and it's very exciting. You should be super proud of it. No I did a similar site. This is hot. You guys are talking about topics that we wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole and that's really exciting. I think it's also because you've got some serious journalists backbone behind it don't you You you guys did a great job with naked security and I think it's very much in that same vein. Now thank you. We had a good time. We didn't sleep allies. No of course, it comes with the territory, but you put out a great product and I. Think it very much was sorta trail-blazing and I think for recorded future we realized that. There are a lot of stories that need to be told, but we can't always use PR firms we always be pushing on. Media companies to. Necessarily align with. What we think is important in so. Adam is independent, but you know he's he is looking for those angles and he's looking for the unique stories to tell and I think it's just a great opportunity and that's very exciting. So what tell me some stories that you guys are focusing on you talk a lot about ransomware on the podcast because ransomware has just been. So top of mind for. CSO's and really even CEO's because of the potential for loss and and. Disrupting. Operations. So that is one topic that there's really not going away and we sort of seeing this whole ecosystem develop around ransomware where they're not just locking systems and encrypting data. But of course, stealing data trying to ransom the data or even engaging these denial of service attacks where they try and take a site or company network off line. So it's really become this this full ecosystem and it's sort of interesting not just looking at the the responses that are taking in terms of. Do. We pay the ransom and that really is a business decision but also you know all the actors and adversaries that are sort of selling what we call unauthorized access into these companies to begin with or hacking these companies, and then selling it to people that have been pushed their ransomware. So it's kind of been this this whole ecosystem development over the last eighteen months that. We've really been exploring quite a bit. So can we touch on politics? Maybe 'cause you guys are pretty brave in terms of what top shirts talk but so we have some serious elections coming up in the US particularly and we are getting the question at smashing security people asking like, how do I know like you know what should I look out for I know that bad guys are going to try and disrupt this yeah. So obviously, it's a pretty big deal here in the US and we we know that you know what we call the big four. So. Russia China Iran North Korea. Three of those four, you know have a pretty determine interest in some sort of disruption of of election and. It's really hard and I think actually you're going to turn the question around to you a little bit because I love to ask reporters especially, how do consumers of news? How do they? Do any sort of validation. Social media posts. And they click on the link to look at the story you know how do they know it's it's valid. How do they know that it's it's actually factually based in it doesn't contain deep fake images or A. Fabricated Story. It's a really yeah, I. Mean What? What is your opinion on that? With you I think it's really I think it's near impossible. I mean I. Feel whilst not formerly. But over two decades of working in the industry I feel like I've got a pretty good nose for that sort of thing, and I'll still get caught out in terms of like finding a news post getting clicked Jack the headline gets me and the graphic looks very similar graphics that might be used on say something like the economist BBC yourself link you know one of the places I might go to and I won't. I won't check the euro because I'd be like, ooh, this looks hot and then there I'm in reading some garbage. So wrote the average user scares me. Like it scares me to death when I watched them on a computer. If I work with, you know I have a book club right and there's a lot of more senior people in the book Lebanon We do a lot of tech support for that. Book Club. And I love saying just show me how you work for just show me how you go about due to your online shop and just watching them. flail around with the mouse and hitting the wrong things and not realizing that has impact is very scary. But Hey, they're filling their house not. So. Because it makes life more convenience. There's this real push pull right now that's happening. Yeah it's so true. That is so true and I think there is that tension between we want everything now and we want it to work. We wanted to be tailored but we're also starting to realize that we need a little privacy to and. Apple lately has been on a real ad campaign kick you know touting the privacy features of their hardware and I think it does resonate with a lot of people in right now with the election. Disinformation and information operations are very real thing and we learned this for years ago. And Russia in particular is very adept at not just generating. Fe content that they've been very good at propagating but they're also very good at jumping on existing threads whether it be some sort of conspiracy theory or whether it be completely fabricated they are very good at taking that an amplifying it especially within social media circles. But the other interesting thing we've seen record feature that criminals are also getting in on the game. So it's not just actors that receive for lack of a better word Russian government paycheck through one means or another. It's actually criminals acting on their own that rick recognize. That disinformation is actually capability that they can sell to businesses that want to essentially throw shade on a competitor and we have actually. Done the research and and we've actually seen the results and it is incredible I mean they will write articles they will get in place with media outlets and publications they will get the advertising done. They will get the social media propagation done. They can do deep fake videos and images machine. Yeah. The fact that matter is you have to be careful about what you read and what you've. You in terms of internalizing it, you know you have to do the due diligence to question everything and unfortunately that's the new reality Fortunately, you're doing this podcast and I think you know podcast great because it's an opportunity to actually talk and think and offer perspectives and it's not the thirty second sound by you know, and it's not designed to be consumable and propagate through. Social. Media. and. This is this is the phone rang and you can change your mind like in the last podcast I changed my mind my immediate reaction to the end of the story I actually went. You know what? I've changed my mind like you know you made really good arguments and I was able to do that in a period of ten whatever fifteen minutes and that's so refreshing. Good. You know. God. God I think the world is grateful swell. Levi wondered I've had really lovely chat with you. Thank you so much coming on smashing security. This has been great. This is fabulous thing so much for the time. Now. You know what to do. You should one checkout recorded futures free xpress browser extension, which you can find all the information at smashing security dot com forward slash recorded future, and if you want to read be recorded future blog, check out the record dot media and Leslie Checkout Levi's podcast off the record wherever you get your podcasts, you're going to give us the real juice on the podcast. Yeah I. Think we try to do adamant I tried to open the Komo. No a little bit. You know sources and methods, and some of the things you don't necessarily see I've subscribed I listened to a few prep to chat with you and I was like this scared I'm in. So definitely what we're listening. Oh thank you coming. That's a huge compliment for a very fly by night operation year smears. Now. WHO's funnier. Gramer. Me I just keep asking everyone. That's an unanswerable question, but I think that you both as a tandem and intact team to wonderful win. That was very good. Chrome I. I'm I'm surprised that you try to go him into sane who was his favourite co host of smashing security and? He was dead. He's. He's so slick now that really does just about wrapping up this week. Tim I'm sure lots of listeners would love to fully online find out more about you and indeed your book as well. subprime attention crisis advertising in the time bomb at the heart of the Internet where should they go to find out more about you unto check out the book sure. Absolutely. So I most active on twitter and so I'm at Tim Gwang Wong. H. W. A. N. G. If you'd like to find out more about the book and See Random tweets about talking mongooses. Fantastic. Twitter as well at Smash Insecurity. No G twitter now of and also we have a smashing security sub it and don't want to show never to miss number episode subscribe in your favorite podcast up such as apple podcasts. Two point. Oh. Yeah and question for you. All we have a discord. Should we? Hip wiggles to all of you. Fabulous listeners. While you think about that. Thank you for listening to US each week supporting our work share with your friends etc. of course shout up this week smashing security sponsors recorded future immersive labs, and of course, last past their support helps us keep you this show for free checkout smashing screw dot com for pest episodes, sponsorship details, and information how to get in touch with us until next time cheerio. Bye Bye. Goodbye. You know. What's your sexy voice? mysexy choice plus on using for the last fifty eight minutes. This is the sexiest seriously turn this on any any more than it already is. Okay. So this is on it's almost too much. Thank you to. Tap into moment I get my do my share impression. When you turn back, time. Yeah. Turn time see six inch. So it was that me was that you do that voice.

US AD Graham Shapiro New York Tim Hong Tim Google Mark Zuckerberg Vladimir Putin Jeff Youtube NPR Robin Hood Crow Tom Cruise SASKIA mulder researcher ray Tim Wong
Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

5:01:00 hr | 3 months ago

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

"Good wine author. Oh totally they have very good winds book for red and whites. I prefer red. So maybe for me. A good santino. For example for teens. Remember that word if you go to a cc totally. That's the best one to have especially to can eat in assisi which is usually zone mushroom. Stratful segmented with that is just perfect. I remember wine and food goo good marriage there. The wind in a zero kilometer way exactly and low wine Perspective carlo petrini teaching to all of us. What is this philosophy. And that's very important. She looking at cheese and prosciutto if it comes from the same region as the wine that's something to look for. I think so now. The province around rome is let co end. There's actually some good wine and lattanzio. Now definitely start to produce fantastic stuff in lingerie tool because they'll saw it as very mineral- so with the mortar technique of inefficacious fantastic until a few years ago. They used to purchase wine. But yeah what about sicily. In the south sicily's the new burgundy new burgundy in particular the aetna aetna june. Is that this volcano. You've got the black soil canines. Actually like i do like. We do not believe that we have some production from our physician. So yeah those ones are really nice and one. It's actually. I prefer to answer to that. We have to be honest. Even if i am from nerve labels and you i do. I do the winds from their better. I have to be honest. This is traveled. Steve's we've been talking wind with wine. Lovers from italy francesco. Grungy and alfredo vitale. Let's close with not only your favorite wine but your favorite wine paired with your favorite food. Okay just like you would have an. No teke i love to go to an na teke and eat drink the wine that is paired with the food that the wine expert has put on small plates. That is a beautiful dinner. And i'd rather spend a lot of money for a glass just a single glass of great wine with the right pairing of food. Alfredo if iming companion family marijn. I will say a beautiful super persada from the region or sanyo together with a glass of taurasi if i am Let's say in umbria. Say a glass of seventeen together with data with mushrooms. I love it. Hello with mushrooms. And tino yes. I wondered listeners to remember this word tino because you don t know. I went crazy when i tasted my first. Southern tino in a nice restaurant in the there was flames. Dancing that is. It is very very good. Oh yeah all right francesco. Well it can say something from a task and it was a really like is for example. Still why aboard. With brunello di montalcino. That's a good opportunity to use the word quarter. Pozzo yes yes. Full-bodied both is more or a good candy. Elegant nut a ton. Nick with a beautiful steak nice for example as the beautiful beef. And don't underestimate chianti doubt some county today. There are fantastic. Alfredo vitale from napoli francesco. Grungy from full tara. Thank you so much for sharing your your your passion and your expertise for italian wine militancy. Thank you thank you in a bit will explore the world of today's nomadic retirees who travel america full-time rv's camper bay but let's linger in italy a while longer for a virtual party complete with some live music and i'll let you in on what scared me off the first time i tried to visit naples as a teenager. It's travel with rick. Steves if the wine in italy makes you feel like singing. Our next guest snow plenty of talian folk tunes and pop standards. You can request from the bad. In fact david. Tories lead singer and guitarist. With a group called bartend he and his bandmates cabriolets donio cardio end. Valero bellocchio came to our travel. With rick steves studio from their home in veto. That's a popular stop for wine lovers in the countryside between rome and tuscany joined us last january test. A few weeks before the worldwide party was put on hold for a while. Gentlemen thanks for being here thank you. I don't think of italy for traditional folk music but of course there is traditional folk music. Oh yes what should we know about folk music in italy folk music like any other aspect of the country is very diverse. in khalid there are schools that are very important especially then polycom. One is the most popular one. So when i go to the naples area sorrento you go to show. What is it called. Determine tele is donna. Yes using a specific Melodic scale called napolitan scale. It's a musical scale. That alternates a couple of notes and It makes the sound a mix between western music and middle eastern music. Because if all of the influences that have come in over southern italy and so we give you a quick example. If you like what's an example of neopolitan i feel. It's a romantic evening. I've got a bottle of local wine and it's Sorrento yes amalfi coast positano. We'll see if you're thinking of another region of italy. What would be represented folk music for example another beautiful region of italy. The has an incredible tradition. Is the area of genoa chink. With era assist. That's up in the north. Yes wes. The school of january is considered to be another very important for and also popular music of italy. What would distinguish that. How would that sound. You have an example for the language. A language is completely different than politics. For example. there's a song in genoa. That i love very much from so then. That's all ridden ancient general dialect. This movie more monay do any do leg wound samples thri news. Danette doughnut boon. To who tell go sounds like portuguese. Yeah so if. I was a roman. I heard that song i would go. Oh that's from the genoa area. Yes zig know that and you would not understand most of the words as something a lot of travelers. don't recognize that there are these strong dialects. The regional differences would also show themselves in the musical styles. What's another iconic sort of folk tradition in italy. Oh man other want for example could be the roman roma folk music that uses a very strong thick roman accents for example. Like this one guys following me. They've gone produce And one soluition in more may anton on dot off the vast. That's nice now. That is so beautiful. Because for a moment i was interested very little and that would be the roman style. Yep this is so fun to. If we've heard music from belen -opoly we've heard music from genoa. We've heard music from rome with be two more regions that we can do for example easily in sicilian language. Not even it's a language. Cecilia will be schutte. Schutte really delano schutte. Schutte shoot eat. Let's throw and then the maidens come out in their traditional dresses and everybody is having their sicilian good times when we go to the far north of italy we have german culture And i know in the dolan. You've got almost this german schlager. Yes almost like the boys yodeling or something like that. I cannot personally yodel. Because i'm not from australia of south. Did all but i love yodeling listening to your at another dimension. Oh yeah completely and the venuto vagnozzi. What would you have in venice. Venice The traditional venetia music is kind of lost vanishes more related to classical music. You know to that the body the foresees this sort of thing. Even the style of their own donovan. It's yana finish. Rondo related to the classical music world. This has traveled for excuse for talking with david tardy and his band bartender who flew all the way from rome to join us here in studio and give us a demonstration of traditional folk music in italy and how it varies from region to region to region as performers in italy entertaining travellers and tourists. Is it just barring almost painful to have to play volare. All the time to have to play all solo meal and santa lucia. Where was it like to be musician. And you know every tourist wants to hear those can get if you play it like a normal song but the way bartender. This band rearranges music. It's engaging let's just david you will introduce each one with a little bit of Cultural background and let's just have a little medley. Let you play three or four terrific cliches but give them a bartender. Twist and a little context as a tour guide. Okay all right number. One number one is should be velocity. The most famous song. Italian song in the world Sonia casino resort near my mu being able to mine. He lafarge limp rookies of an evil van. Coming shaw opponent dog. Oh guy Being dotty blue questions. Oh valerie just hollywood or is it actually have italian roots valeria. No no it's a it's a song in nineteen fifty eighth but and sung by domenico. You're one of the best italian singer to hit in italy. It's a big time here in our cavalcade of italian music. What's next for example. We could do to vomit gano. What does that do you wanna be. Americano tell us this story has a story about of course just very briefly there is always a story behind the song. In fact this one actually has a great story after world war two the americans in the english for example were seen as heroes especially by the young kids so in the fifties lots of the kids for naples a big city that was liberated by the troops started dressing up like the american so wearing a baseball hat. A pair of jeans. Some rolled-over Sleeves with a pack of marlboro inside the sleeve and so on and the song is about that. You want to pretend to be your even got some friends in europe. That were named frankie and johnny that were born during those years because they wanted to be a medical examiner. Let's hear it out sooner. Fan read the here says combine. Ya romanova pull aguada levada. God oh man god louis. I'm all the monster baby weakness by job as old mysore come ema rich. So you wanna be americano. I like that. But you're not not play rock and roll. You can wear those jeans but you're telling swing whatever you want but that's great okay. So another one. What about a solo. Well let me all. It's a song about the beauty of the gulf of naples and the beauty of the neapolitan. Lifestyle all scholley meal. Oh my son okay. This would be from the polls area tevin tele sort of culture. Yes donatella cultural more neapolitan ballad. Okay and it's a love song. It's a love song. Not only about another person but also about this city of naples very briefly the word so when we hear you singing a ten look what does it mean in another beautiful thing sunday. Not the will the impasse. Serene precedent serene air after the tempest after the storm to the store and also literally. What does that mean. Well your son of mine son the son or the son of mine celebrating the sunshine sunshine twinkling bringing lemons to be fresh for in front of me all the beautiful sudden. Let's hear it. Also meal -kay Laco you're not a sued now. Siri him past raisch. But jonah faced lakos. Now you're the so ma older. Oh so let me style thrown a a. Oh so me the fro raw raw right. You know david when. I'm listening to your band bartender. I'm realizing that as a tourist. It's easy to write something off as just touristy and kitchy but there is a cultural basis for it the checkered tablecloths the woven wine jug of chianti who sola mio italians can sway to that just like american tourists. Yes this has been beautiful. David tardy villareal gabriela bone lombardo milligrams and next time. I'm i wanna check out. Bartender got city next. Up is naples. Nineteen seventy-three untravelled. With rick steves strolling through naples. I remember my first visit to the city. As a why eighteen year old might travel buddy. And i had stepped off the train into the vast piazza garibaldi. A man in a white surgeons gown approached me and said please. It is very important. We need blood for a dying baby. Naples was offering a dose of reality. We weren't expecting on our italian vacation. We immediately made a u-turn stepped back into the station and made a beeline for greece. Well that delayed my first visit by several years. I've been back to naples many times sense and today even with its new fluence and stress on law and order. The city remains appalling and captivating at the same time. It's italy's third largest city as well as its most polluted and crime rate but this tangle durban mess still somehow manages to breathe life and sing with a joyful italian accent naples offers. The closest thing to reality travel and western. Europe churning fertile end exuberant with more than two million. People may says almost no open spaces or parks which makes its ranking as europe's most densely populated city. Plenty evidence watching the police. Try to enforce traffic. Sanity is almost comical but naples still surprises me with its impressive neck for living eating and raising children with good humor and decency. There's even a name for this love of life in the street bus. Living in naples. I spend more time in the local neighborhoods than in the museums and palaces since ancient greek times the old city centre has been split right down. The middle by a long straight street called spike anomaly split naples just beyond the spanish quarter climbs into the hills and behind. The archaeological museum is perhaps the most colorful district of all sanita walking through the neighborhoods. I ventured down narrow streets lined with tall apartment. Buildings walk in the shade of wet laundry hung up to dry and slip into time-warp courtyards couples artfully cuddle investments while surrounded by more fights and smiles per cobblestone than anywhere else in italy black and white death announcements add to the clutter on the walls of the buildings widows sell cigarettes from plastic buckets ice by a woman overseeing the action from her balcony on the fifth floor by two carats as a gift and she lower bucket. Pick them up. One wave populates six stories of balconies. Each filling up with its own waving family. Contagious energy fills the air. I snap a photo and suddenly people in each window and balcony are vying for another shot. Mothers hold up babies sisters pose arm-in-arm a wild haired pregnant woman stands on a fruit great holding her bulging delhi and an old wrinkled woman fills her paint starved window frame with toothy grin paint a picture with these thoughts. Naples has the most intact ancient street plan anywhere. Imagine life here. In the days of caesar with streetside shopfronts that close up to become private homes after dark. Today is just one more page. In a two thousand year old story of city activity meetings. Beatings chattings kisses near misses. Little boy pisses the only predictable elements of this neopolitan. Mix are the boldness of the mopeds concerned residents will tug on their lower eyelid warning. You the be wary and the friendliness of shopkeepers to cap my walk. I pop into grocery and asked the man to make me his best ham and mozzarella sandwich. I watch employed. He turns sandwich making into a show after demonstrating the freshness of his role with a playful. Squeeze he assembles. The components laying on a careful pavement of salami bringing over fluffy mozzarella ball as if performing a kidney transplant slicing tomato with rapid fire machine precision and lovingly. Pitting the olives by hand. Then he finishes it off with the delightful visit of the very best olive oil six-year-olds in a smile later. I find the perfect bench upon which to enjoy my lunch while watching the neopolitan parade of life stroll by an older man with a sloppy slice of pizza joins me later a stylish couple on a bike rolls back. She sits on the handlebars giggling. She faces her man hands around his neck as he cranes to see where they're going. I say bella italia my bench made says no bella napoli. I saint napoli. It's both beautiful. And a city of chaos he agrees but insists bella chaos. I ask tell me what is napoli in one word turning his head. He watches woman stride then with a long string of mozzarella stretching between his mouth and what remains of his pizza he choose for a moment pauses and says boom done i agree. Naples is abundant. Do this look at the bella. Chaos in naples is taken from the one hundred essays from lifetime of travel. But i've compiled in my newest book. Rick steves for the of europe you can call them. Travellers nomads modern american gypsies. Or even work campers jessica. Bruder tells us about her time with the people who spend the retirement years in. Rv's trailers as they travel the country often it's defined seasonal work to help them afford to live here what it's like to survive in nomad land. That's next on travel with rick steves. Hey i'm rick steves in my latest book for the love of europe. You can save her europe's most exciting experiences insights through one hundred of my favorite travel stories. Imagine hanging from an alpine ridge dancing at a turkish party and swinging the bell ringer in medieval church buyer. You can order your copy of for the love of europe. At rick steves dot com for some americans and extended road trip in an rv or camper. Trailer has become a way of life. That's because it's all they can afford. Many of them are looking for temporary seasonal work because they're diminished income after retirement just isn't enough to live on german list. Jessica bruder followed this. Itinerant workforce up close for two years. She logged more than fifteen thousand miles in her own converted van and stayed in campgrounds and actually worked alongside them jessica profiles that people. She met in her book. No manley surviving. America in the twenty first century. It's just been adapted into a major motion picture of the same name jessica. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Whoa what phanom here this nomad. I didn't realize there's a whole parallel society of people who are generally older that are working to subsist moving from place of employment to place of employment in. Rv's what what is the basis of this. What is going on in our country where we have this sort of change in the economic design of things especially for people in their golden years. Yeah all sorts of stuff is going on. I mean when i used to see our viewers. I just assumed that they were the last of the great pensioners going to old faithful or niagara falls and just tooling around enjoying themselves. But the more. I learned when i started looking into. This is think about it. We've seen so many things that have made it difficult for people to retire happen in this country. We've seen pensions give way to 401k's which put a lot of risk on workers rather than on employers we've seen the great recession decimate people savings and basically just caused the housing equity. They plan to retire on evaporate. We've been in a culture where for such a long time. wages have been stagnant. I mean our federal minimum wage is seven twenty five which still blows my mind incredibly low while the cost of housing are increasing. Consequently people who don't have a pension to support them Cost of housing goes up. Their income doesn't go up there and come probably goes down and they end up homeless looking for work to supplement a meagre social security. What do people make per month the on social security l. It's oliver them up. I believe the average is around twelve. Hundred but i met people who are making five hundred or less. You can't live on five hundred a month to that that sorta out but you've got to get out there and at seven fifty an hour or whatever you can manage supplement that absolutely for people who are lifetime low-wage earners since social security is based on your lifetime of wages people. Just you know. They're not going to get a break. Once they're older in your book called give up the stick house and hit the roads in brick is what the viewers call him sticking brick. Yeah to distinguish that from their home. So they've these people will not call themselves homeless faecal it house lewis and that makes perfect sense to me because they've got transportation and shelter. You just brought something up earlier jessica about there's no more pensions but now there's the 401k. Explain the dynamic of that. What was the situation with pensions. What is it now with. 401k's why was that changed main and and what the consequences. Unfortunately i think it was a pretty cynical move and it was marketed. As 401k's were marketed in the eighties as an instrument of financial freedom. This kind of you pick your destiny. Your free go forth americans but when pensions were the rule of the land they were made on basically a defined benefit sort of schedule. So you knew what you were getting up to the employer to make sure that you've got that and really under the guise of freedom that risk outsource to the shoulders of the worker as 401k's became the rule so if you're an impoverished older person who wishes you were actually retired with an income. You could feel like you've been scammed out of your pension and indu 401k's that doesn't do it for you because you never made enough money to put that away. yeah absolutely triumph for the employers. It's absolutely a triumph for employers and it's part of the erosion of the rights that the labor movement has one for us over the past decades. I mean who who remembers the forty hour week. He seems quaint. Feel like retirement is going the same way. And so what's going on with retirement now because Retirement used to be different thing than it is. Today today americans over sixty-five lot of them still have to work. Yeah and we're we're living longer and longer a really interesting phenomenon. I saw two as a lot of older single women on the road when you think about it again because of the gender wage gap women's lifetime earnings lower than men so they get less social security. They spend a lot of time. Out of the workforce doing unpaid labor as caregivers. They live longer than men. Sorts pretty incredible. There's a lot of solo women out there. So there's a lot of people looking for temporary work to supplement their social security check. That can't afford a home and they're living out of an rv. Roughly how many people are we talking. Okay so this is a really challenging number to address because everybody is quote unquote dome assailed somewhere to get by america. You need an address. You need it for your driver's license insurance. So i would guess just anecdotally. Based on things from a player's we're talking at least tens of thousands and that's a conservative estimate. Jessica brooders our guest on travel with rick steves. She's the author of nomad land surviving america in the twenty first century. Not long after book. Released in two thousand seventeen jessica drove to our studio in gmc kemperman. She fixed up and called van halen. Her website is jessica bruder dot com that spelled b. r. u. d. e. r. Jessica how did you get into this and tell us about how you learned about this issue. Were inspired to go out and write this book. I'm a journalist. I do a lot of reading and back in. Oh gosh it was two thousand and eleven. There was a really scrappy paper. The allentown morning call the came out with a report about temperatures rising to one hundred ten degrees in an amazon warehouse. And instead of putting an ac they had ambulances outside to pick up people when they dropped and year. Later i was reading more about warehouse work and there were one paragraph two paragraphs tops in his article. Where somebody said. Hey i'm in the amazon warehouse. Because i'm here with a special program for our viewers and i can't afford to retire and the story moved on but i didn't. I was like wait a minute. What is that all about. So i learned more about the program started doing a ton of research and found out that this program amazon runs called. Kemper force was just a small part of a much larger ecosystem thousands of employers coast to coast and up into canada hiring this incredibly mobile population and in an environment where the mainstream workplace bespoke my face. A lot of ageism and suddenly here is a network of employers. That's welcoming older folks with open arms. So let's talk about that a little bit because If you are an employer and you hire a temp worker. There are some advantages. They don't do organiz. The unit dealing with unions don't have a lot of perks and benefits. You gotta give them certainly no healthcare and it can be seen as an employer is a very easy way to filled the spikes in demand of labor in your work economically. Amazon might have a huge demand for labor at christmas time and less elsewhere so all these different laborers will realize. Hey this is the time to go to amazon now and then in the summer it might be agricultural work or something like this. Give me the description of this would. Amazon would call camper force sure but also it's worth noting that this is just a tiny part of the fact that so much of our workforce is going towards independent contractors right now in ways that because it's so much more beneficial for the employers employers market to have to provide benefits of any kind and to have out will employees where you really don't need any resent to terminate them. It's just the alternate and flexible workforce at will employees. What does that mean exactly at will means you can be without cause so many of these were camping jobs. The folks are working at well. They are told you will probably get x. Amount of hours a week and often they travel great distances to reach the job and if the employer decides that they're no longer needed or they just feel like cutting on there's no obligation to deliver on the work. So what are some examples of sources of employment for ten rent senior. Labor's there is the amazon camper force. That is something that exists in the four months leading up to christmas where people do pick and pack on ten hour shifts in the warehouses. Make sure you've got good sneakers. You could be walking fifteen miles a day or more on concrete which is not so nice on an aging body with this be of a nine to five shift or do they do it at different times of day. I went undercover into the overnight shift which turned people into what they referred to as emma zombies amazon vs midnight to eight. Am or something. Oh gosh yeah. It was all through the night. It was all through the night so just one ship comes and other shift goes. Yeah absolutely the worst is not ever shut down. That's one big big source of temporary. What what are some other. Examples is the annual sugarbeet harvest up in the red river valley. People work on ground crew. You're shoveling sugar. Beets out in the cold on a twelve hour shift. That's pretty intense as well. There are people guarding the gates for texas oilfields. There are people doing campground hosting which is a really interesting one because it looked very quaint and the jobs are often advertised. Something that kind of feels like summer. Camp like hey. You're getting paid to go camping but in this kind of camping. Your cleaning toilets three times a day. You're shoveling out fire pits. You're dealing with rowdy campers and you're only allowed to invoice for a limited amount of work hours when in truth you're on site For many of these people twenty four seven because your living there so if somebody wants to buy firewood from you at two in the morning and they're banging on the side of your rig. Good luck telling them now. How would somebody who's looking for. Workers spread their news. And how would somebody who's looking for work network and know what's out there. Are there magazines or their websites. How this all this connect yeah. There's a website called workers on wheels. There's another site called work camper news and they solicit advertisements from tons and tons and tons of employers. There's also just a huge word of mouth network. People who are work camping get together on facebook and in all sorts of online digests the man who ties the christmas tree abide to the roof of your car. The woman who cleans the toilets at the campground you stayed in. They might be among the thousands of work campers. Jessica bruder got to know. She researched the lives of americans who live in. Rv's and campers by joining them in her own converted caravan jessica's book nomad land made the new york times list of one hundred notable books. Twenty seventeen it's now been adapted into a movie starring francis mick dorman david straigthen and a number of actual people jessica met on the road. The film won the top prize at this year's venison toronto film festivals. Nomad land is scheduled for general release on december fourth. Our phone number is eight. Seven seven three three seven four to five and then he's calling from sandwich in massachusetts wondering. How did people view you. Or how does society do this like a vagabond or just you know normal people using a campfire and traveling. Well nancy. it's really funny. You used that word. Because i just remember when i met one of the women i interviewed for the book. She said you're gonna make us out to be a bunch of homeless vagabonds. So that concern of stigmas definitely there particularly with the ongoing criminalization of homelessness over the country. Where people are being told. They can't sleep in their vehicles in cities all over the place. So i think it really depends on what strata the community you belong to and what reagan. I know a woman who lives in van and was speaking to a bunch of folks in sparkly new are views around a campfire and when they asked her what kind of rick do you live in. And she said a van. They actually left their own campfire. So there is stigma. There is prejudice out there. And i think depending on how old your rig is and what you're doing with it it can be a real challenge. Well thank you for your answer. Thank you for your call. Nancy ideas calling from los angeles adhere. Thanks for your call. hi. I'm wondering how many of these people might have considered becoming ex-pats involving to other countries. I'm sure they might not have the means to get to the other countries. You know like mexico as a lot of pets and i know cuenca ecuador's really high on the list in other words if you have the humble retirement here. That doesn't quite pay the bills. You could move south of the border and live more comfortably on the x amount of money. Per month right yeah. I'm just wondering if these people have considered bad or does he get into that at all. And if you know much about the cat community around the world of american will. I know it's growing. And i think it's fascinating and one little area of overlap. Which isn't quite what you're asking. Is i know tons and tons of people who go to mexico to get their dental work. Done people pretty much going there and caravans. But i think for a lot of these people. It's a matter of what the startup costs to. Actually get out. There would be like that largely would put it out of reach crime. What about tiny houses. Well in a sense fees are tiny houses on wheels. they're tiny houses without utility costs without property tax. There's definitely some overlap. There in those tiny houses can roll to the seasonal sources of income. Absolutely thanks for your call. This is travel with rick. Steves we're talking with jessica bruder. Who book is nomad land talking about surviving in america in the twenty first century. If you are older and your retirement doesn't quite make it. You went undercover. And you're sitting around campfires probably telling stories and sharing ideas with these people. In what way is it a culture. In what way do they relate to each other in ways that we might not share for what it's worth. I never went undercover. When i was just out there with people. I only went undercover when i was in a closed work environment like the sugar beet harvest or amazon whenever i went and spoke with people and was out there and my van. They knew exactly what. I was doing their civilian. Sir i treat them accordingly. But i've got to tell you. It's an incredible culture and a really really resilient creative fiercely independent protective culture. I was really impressed by it. So people get together online but people also get together in person and they at one particular event that i attended for three years in a row as part of my research is called. The rubber tramp rendezvous and people are doing seminars teaching each other. how to boondock. Go off the grid and the national parts how to stealth camp without getting rousted by police in cities how to get affordable dental care in mexico and often joining each other on field trips to go down there. How do carpool it. Down to two town. South of the border senator feelings. Dan muller city that's fascinating you went to a convention a tinder at labor convention and had all these. They're smart people that are living out of their rv's for financial reason. Brilliant people and some of them are working and others have just made their overhead so low that they can pretty much financially doormen. There's a whole mix do employers provide kind of a campground for the trailers if they need to encourage more people to come i mean i can imagine employees thing this great. We need five hundred workers. They would want to have a place where people could plug in. Do they actually create these trailer towns. That are temporary workforce hamlet. Yeah so in the case of amazon they had briefly spoken about building their own. But i think found it was easier to contract with rv parks in the communities surrounding their warehouses. And keep in mind for some of these jobs. I was up at the sugarbeet harvest in rv. V. park can be a bit of a euphemism for field with electrical plug. Basically you need a place to park and penta and a plug that. Let's let's talk about the reality of people who when you're in your seventies especially when you're in your seventies doing hard physical labor in a lotta cases you've got the reality of healthcare and and your your body is falling apart and you don't have more money you have less money. What is the reality. When you're seventy five and going to work every day standing and moving things around hoping the employer doesn't notice that you're not able to physically and you're having to sign away your rights so you can't complain to your employer that you got injured. What kind of empathy did you gain for people in this situation. Oh a ton. because we've gotta tell you when. I was out there undercover on a couple of these jobs. My body hurt and i was thirty seven. At the time i met people who were again walking fifteen miles a day on concrete floor and getting plantar fasciitis. I met people getting trigger finger from using the handheld scanner. Guns i met people getting slip and fall injuries on the slick floor. At the beet harvest people getting hit in the head with a cardboard boxes at amazon. Just its incredible. The persistence of these folks and this is a generation that doesn't really abide complainers. So you're not gonna hear them whine about it they get up and do it again and i think that's why the employers like them so much is because of that can do attitude jessica normally when we have an interview i'd like to. I'd like to end on something really happy and uplifting and inspirational. But i don't know to me you got somebody who's five years old and having to you know work from midnight to nine in the morning at some christmas rush you know discount retailer and then five years. Go by and you're not getting stronger. You're getting weaker. You're not getting richer you're getting poorer. What is the endgame is only sadness. It's not only sadness. But i've seen my fair share of sadness. There are a couple of people. I talked to for the book who are no longer with us. Send a woman. I talked to all the time was recently parked next to in rv'er who was having a tough time he was also a bit older and low on cash and she didn't see him for a couple of days and the flies on the screens and she called the police and he was gone as well. So while i have seen people get off. The road. And i have seen people find other things to do. It's a really complicated picture. And i don't want to give away the end of the book but it actually doesn't have a super depressing ending or something kinda of cool unhappy. That happens but i can't tell you what it is. We'll jessica whether there is a happy final chapter or not. I just think it's really important. They've drawn that. You've raised awareness of this dimension of our country as we as a nation struggled to to give people the opportunity to work hard and and have dignity and self respect Especially in their in their golden jessica bruder. The book is nomad land. And thank you so much for learning about this in sharing it so eloquently. Thanks for having me here. Travel with rick steves produced by tim. Captain with kasmin a hall. At rick steves europe and edmonds washington. Our website is managed by andrew. Wait at america and our theme music is by jerry. Frank you'll find more to the show on our website. At rick steves dot com slash radio. Driving has rhythm all its own. Don't with a text before you get behind the wheel. Silence your phone or better yet. Designated texter for more text. Free driving tips visit stoptextsstopwrecks dot org brought to you by the ad council and the national highway traffic safety administration with today's car clinic. Minute trolls charged them to cross bridges banks levy on to use. Atm's but i know an automotive. The that's next best free and good for the environment when i come back i'll tell you all about it. When your battery goes dead everything could come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded. Stop by o. Reilly auto parts and get your battery tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced o'reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery. That fits your car or truck at guaranteed low price o'reilly reilly auto parts better parts. Better prices every day auto parts believe it or not that keeps two things green your wallet and the environment when purchasing a new battery for your vehicle. A core charge levied by the government is collected by retailers. So where's the good news trade in your old battery and the fees waived or if you forget to bring it with you just return it later. And the core charge you'll be cheerfully refunded and environmental bonus used batteries kept out of landfills are collected from retailers and recycled. I'm bobby like us like us. You love us when severe weather strikes. It's important your in the no. Even if power goes out and sailor networks are down. Radio can be your lifeline and next radio is the free app that brings fm radio to your android smartphone. No data or cellular network required and it won't drain your battery. Go to the google. Play store right now. Download the nextradio app to your android device. Stay tuned to this station and please stay safe for a full list of compatible devices visit next radio app dot com free talk live. There was a being he started. Are you saying. Michael jackson has come back. I am michael jackson. See i called you. Talk with god throughout your life. You heard this voice that you recognized as god telling you. Do you believe magic inviting you to look out the window. Where you then saw michael jackson coming down from a rainbow ray of light coming from the sky. So what happened then did he. You know invite you to his land or whatever it is. He has nine months later. The virgin birth happen again. We're happy ironic. He i if we could resurrect inside of me. Older michael jackson's baby jackson listen to free talk live seven nights week six to nine. Pm central time on the heartland newsfeed radio network heartland news dot com colorado's governor tests positive. I'm sound she ingress. Oh fox news. Colorado governor jared police announced saturday. He and his partner moral unreas- tested positive for coronavirus. You're listening to the hot newsfeed. Feed radio network at live dot heartland use fee dot com. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook. Twitter and instagram's colorado's governor tests positive. I'm sound she ingress. Oh fox news. Colorado governor jared polis announced saturday. He and his partner moral and res tested positive for coronavirus. The governor and the first gentleman are in isolation at their home both are as symptomatic and are feeling well but we know. The police was at the governor's mansion for a joint press conference so that was on tuesday and as far as we know that was his last public appearance along with state epidemiologist rachel hurley poses office confirmed he was going into quarantine after being exposed person. Who tested positive for the virus but police tested negative day. We still don't know who that person was or if any other staffers were exposed as well. Dvr folks denver's governor polls will continue working remotely some encouraging news on the potential distribution of coronavirus vaccine it could be ready for frontline healthcare workers and a couple of weeks as far as shipping. Those vaccines are concerned. united airlines is playing a major part in the shipping. They're going to be chartering flights from brussels belgium all away to chicago and what makes it even more interesting. They're gonna be carrying five times. The amount of dry ice normally permitted on board to keep the vaccine at the necessary. Coal temperature for effectiveness as fox. David spot reporting pennsylvania's high court rejects a republican lawsuit challenging the november election. Their indianapolis decision saturday night. The state supreme court threw out a lower court order preventing the state from certifying dozens of contests including joe. Biden's state justices say. The underlying lawsuit was filed months. Too late strike for for charles. Manson follower leslie van houten. California governor gavin newsom has reversed. Parole van houten marking the fourth time. A government has blocked release. Newsome says she poses an unreasonable danger to society. If released from prison. America is listening to fox news. As case numbers continued to rise so to the corona virus restrictions like those that are about to go into effect in rhode island. Tomorrow rhode island begins a two week paws with the aim of blunting. The upward trend covid nineteen cases restaurants and stores can stay open but bars and gyms will close gym owner. Denise cohen says she's invested a lot in safety precautions for her business and thinks it's unfair for salons pause to remain open while she has to close. I did go above and beyond here to make sure that i could feel good about my clients coming into my studio. And we've also taken so much outside. Governor gina raimondo said. She based her decision to close gyms on. Cdc guidance and at the pause is needed because hospitalizations are going out faster than at any point in the pandemic in new york tanya j powers fox news as the infection rates grow some of the testing stats may be a little unusual of the days ahead. Medical experts are now warning coronavirus. Testing numbers are likely to be radic over the next week or so. That's because fewer people are getting tested during the holiday weekend and then the testing sites have shorter hours right now. The us has more than thirteen million confirmed positive cases of covid nineteen and the viruses killed more than two hundred sixty five thousand people. Actually strobe iron full speed ahead on that wall across the southern us border. President trump rushing to complete as much of the border wall as possible before his time in the white house comes to an end. President-elect joe biden has said he hopes to stop construction along. The southern border arizona has become the center of the effort with construction crews working around the clock. As far as john scott reporting and vanderbilt sarah fuller became the first woman to participate in a power. Five conference football game when she kicked off to start the second half against missouri. Yesterday her main sport is soccer as a goalkeeper but full amid a clear she'd be up for continued up the football team if needed. I've sailed in bresso. This is fox news if you need to hire. You need indeed indeed delivers quality candidates. So you can focus on hiring the person who is a good fit claim your seventy five dollars credit for your first post at indeed dot com slash fox terms and conditions apply in our previous episode. We learned that more than two hundred and fifty billion dollars. A year is spent in the us on advertising globally. The figures nearly six hundred billion dollars. That's more than half a trillion dollars an advertising because of the digital revolution. Television advertising has lost some of its privacy but tv still accounts for roughly a third of ad spending in the us. The super bowl alone brings in more than three hundred million dollars and how effective is all the tv advertising. How good is it at actually selling the products. It is telling you to buy the conventional wisdom says it's gotta be affected. Why else would companies spend so much money on it. But the data well the data tell a different story. Here's what we heard last week from anna tuchman. She is a marketing professor at northwestern university and she recently co authored a massive study on the efficacy of tv advertising. This means that doubling the amount of advertising would lead to about a one percent increase in sales so. Your research argues that. Tv advertising is about fifteen to twenty times less effective than the conventional wisdom says. Yes that's right. There are not surprisingly objections to this research especially from the marketing industry. For instance they will point to the brand building aspect of advertising. It's not just about short-term sales they'll say or the game theory aspect that is if you don't advertise your product and your rivals do. Where does that leave you. Still any company that spends even thousands of dollars on tv ads. Much less millions or billions would have to be sobered by anna tuchman findings was tv advertising. Always so inefficient. Or did it lose its luster recently with the arrival of digital giants like google and facebook. The answer to that question but we do know is that people are spending more time online than ever before and digital advertising holds the promise of matching advertisers precisely to the people who want their products at the end of the day. Everything around mopti stretchy around segmentation. That's the former chief marketing officer of unilever. Keith weed more relevant to to the audience the more interested they'll be in your message of the more interested being your message. The more likely be all to buy your product and thanks to the cookies on your phone or computer such a cute name for such a powerful tracking device you are constantly telling the companies who installed those cookies. Exactly what you are interested in you. Also tell them where you live what you wear and listen to eat. What kind of people you hang out with. Which god if any you believe. In which political party you hate less than the other yes. The advertising has changed radically with the arrival of digital and data. The internet has made it almost too easy to sell to us and sell to us. They do last year. Advertisers spent one hundred and twenty three billion dollars on internet ads in the us. It's just less than half the total ad spending across all media. That's how facebook and alpha the parent company of google have become two of the most valuable companies in the world. More than eighty percent of google's revenue comes from advertising where the ninety eight percent of facebook's revenue comes from advertising with so many advertisers spending so many billions they must be getting a healthy return on their investment right so digital advertising must be effective right Today on freakonomics radio a hard look at the hard to find evidence around digital advertising. Oh adds definitely work. But we can't tell you how or why are any evidence for it from stitcher and productions. This is freakonomics radio. Podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host stephen. Duffner steve to dallas is a professor at haas school of business at the university of california berkeley. Yes and i teach and do research in economics. A lot of his research is on the economics of the internet. Back in two thousand eleven. He started doing. Some work with ebay. Was to hire lead a team of economists and work with a variety of the businesses within ebay. The hiring of prominent academic economists is longstanding practice at tech firms. How varian also from berkeley has worked for years as chief economist at google john list from the university of chicago has done similar work. I at uber and now at lift. So here was steve to dallas at ebay and at one point one of the directors. They're realized that as economists. We know something about metrics which is the statistics of measuring economic activity. And they want to see if we could vet a consultant that they recently hired a consulting firm to do quantitative marketing analytics. And help ebay figure out how to spend their scarce marketing dollars. Let me just say that. Scarce here is a relative term that the time ebay was spending about two billion dollars a year and a variety of marketing activities. Okay so it makes sense. Ebay would wanna know how effectively that money was being spent more than half of it was going toward. Internet and this outside consulting firm was going to analyze the efficacy of those ads and the goal was to speak with this consulting company and see if they're going to use solid and vetted ways of measuring these returns to advertising to be fair measuring the efficacy of advertising. Can be really hard last week. My freakonomics friend and co author. Steve levitt told us about trying to help a big box. Retailer measure the efficacy of their tv ads. One issue that they really only advertise three times a year for father's day black friday and christmas. And so you of course have correlation between your advertising on tv and when you're selling things but it's not necessarily or even primarily because of the ad it's because the company knows when the big selling days are and they target the ads around it so teasing the causal part the sales that wouldn't have happened absence advertising. It's just really hard problem. But within that firm levitt found the executives were convinced it was the ads that caused the sales steve to dallas again. This is the kind of wrong analysis that many people end up falling into when they are not that conscientious about the difference between causation correlation. To knew this would be a hard problem for ebay as well. And that's what these outside consultants were supposed to figure out. So i got a call with them and very quickly was able to confirm that what they're doing was quite wrong. Just you know consulting firms. Also like to higher academic economists to do this kind of work. So you can maybe see where this is going to. Dallas is listening intently on call which was on a landline. Which will make sense. In a second and went to dallas suggested that the consultants proposed methodology would not be able to untangle correlation and causation. They responded using a whole bunch of jargon especially the term proprietary transformation functions proprietary meaning. That's our secret. Transformation functions meaning who knows to della said he still didn't understand how these incidents were going to measure the thing that needed to be measured the marginal effect of the ads that ebay was spending millions on them and The head of the company replied by saying that to do the marginal measurement. They're going to use lagrange multipliers. Well i paused for a second. Because i know at lagrange multipliers are. I used to teach this stuff. And i couldn't understand what they're trying to do here. And that's when the dime dropped they're trying to out jargon me so i replied by saying well we all know that the lagrange multipliers measure the shadow values of constraints in an optimization problem so it would really help me if you explain to me. What is your objective function. And what are your constraints after a short pause and this is where i have to take my hat off to the founder of that consulting company. He immediately responded with the only and best answer he could give. Which was steve. Are you driving now. Because i can't hear you you're breaking up to dallas. Took his concerns back to his bosses at ebay. He proposed a different way to understand the impact of the online ads. Ebay was buying. He offered to run some randomized experiments to researcher. That's gold gold standard and there was not any by in but coincidentally but coincidentally one of the advertising and marketing teams. Wanted to renegotiate a deal with yahoo and microsoft network namely the bing search engine. That is ebay wanted to renegotiate the terms under which they bought search ads on being and before doing that. They ceased all payments for brand keyword advertising. That's because ebay was trying to create some leverage heading into their renegotiation. Okay but now. We need a primer on keyword advertising. And how you actually buy online ads right so just like you could imagine the auction for a piece of art at sotheby's where the auction near puts up this picasso and says how much are people willing to pay and then give it to the highest bidder. Something similar is happening. Every time someone searches for anything on google or yahoo or being or any other search engine and you have companies that are bidding on different kinds of keywords companies that want to advertise online. Come up with a list of words that they think we'll give them the best chance of connecting with people who are searching for what the companies are selling these could be branded keywords like ebay or verizon or non branded key words like stiletto heels cable. Tv if i'm in the insurance industry and someone is searching car insurance on google i wanna be there but i don't wanna be there when someone is searching for fil unless maybe you've got a specialty line of laval insurance and someone types car insurance. The second they click enter. All these computers are basically running these auctions instantaneously. This is done with the aid of sophisticated algorithms. So they have all the bids they allocated to the winner. And that's how the ad pops up when dallas was working for ebay. The company was in the practice of buying brand keyword ads. Which meant that if you did an online search four ebay. The top result before all the organic search results was a paid ad for ebay. The federal trade commission requires such adds to be clearly labeled as ads. Although some of the labeling is pretty subtle go do a google search for something like best running shoes. And you'll see what i mean anyway. These paid ebay adds that delegates talking about now. This is what the consulting company said had the highest bang for the buck. Which of course made no sense from a common sense perspective. Because if i'm already searching for ebay i know exactly where i want to go. So the fact that the ad intercepts me and i click on it is just coincidental and it cannibalize. What would have been a free. Click on the organic search so when ebay in planning to renegotiate their deal with being turned off their brand keyword advertising mad gave us. What's called natural experiment. This is what economists dream about a change in a variable the ford's a real opportunity to separate correlation from causation. We could measure visits and we could measure purchases and we could see whether there was any drop in clicks and purchases and not surprisingly all the search that was taken away from the ads just ended up coming for free through the organic search because right below the ad was the free linked to ebay. Once we had those results. I went to the chief financial officer of ebay north america and showed him the analysis to which he responded. Okay you guys. Were right what we do next. And that gave us the open door to design more sophisticated experiments to dallas up running to experiments along with fellow. Economists thomas blake and chris nocco the first one essentially mirrored the natural experiment. They turned off all brand keyword search ads which means that if someone searches for ebay ebay will not surface an ad the conjecture that we have which i can't see any other conjecture is that if there is no competition for keyword ebay then once you remove that bad the organic search is going to be the first thing that people see and that means that they're gonna go to ebay directly without having ebay pay any fees to the search engine for the advertising and that is precisely what they found surprise surprise other researchers found even more pronounced results imagine that an ebay competitor like amazon enters an ad auction for the keyword ebay and wins at auction. This means that when you search for ebay the top link you'll get is an amazon link. In such cases researchers found most people just ignore the amazon link and move on directly to ebay which means brand keyword advertising. Whether it's your brand or someone else's is a waste of money exactly imagine you're a restaurant owner and you want to hand out coupons in order to get people to come to your restaurant and if you want to measure the returns on that coupon you really need to know how many people would come without the coupon. Because here's the thing for every person who would have come anyway. You're losing money. The analogy in my view of brand keyword advertising is handing out the coupons inside the restaurant the second experiment to dallas and his colleagues ran used branded keywords. Just the names of things that people might be looking to buy online like guitar. Were boots or picture frame. Yes so for non branded search. We actually had no idea what the results are going to be. Because here if i am searching for example studio microphone. I'm sure that on ebay. I might find a variety of used ones. But if i'm not thinking about ebay and i just searched for studio microphone if e bay doesn't pay an ad they might not even show up on the first page. And by the way the automated machines at ebay that were doing the online bidding they had a basic library of close to a hundred million different combinations of keywords because ebay has practically everything you could imagine for sale on the site so we really had no idea what the returns for. The non branded search would be the experiment. They designed used order strategy. That's the same method. We heard about in our earlier episode on tv advertising. This takes advantage what are called. Dma's or designated market area is what most of us think of as media markets. It turns out that most people living on one side of a market border are socially economically and demographically similar to the people living on the other side when two similar populations are served different ads. Which happens all the time you can isolate the impact of the advertising on their actual purchases. There are two hundred and ten delays in the us and we took a third of these delays and we turned off all paid search advertising. This was an extremely blunt experiment. Where we're saying what would happen. If we didn't advertise. And to our surprise the impact on average was pretty much zero. Did you catch that. They turned off all their keyword search ads. Then measured actual sales and the impact on average was pretty much zero. What was ebays existing belief about paid search advertising. The company believe that roughly five percent of sales were driven by paid search advertising. Meaning that they believe that if he would pull the plug on advertising sales would drop by five percent. What we found was that sales dropped by about half a percent so that's an order of magnitude less and it was not statistically different from zero but maybe it's still worth it to gain even that half a percent now. We have to know what the advertising costs and measure the return on investment. When you did the return on investment for every dollar that ebay spends ebay believed that for every dollar. They're spending they're getting roughly a dollar and a half back meaning fifty cents of net profits and what we showed. Is that on average. They're losing more than sixty cents on every dollar. So how did these results go over. Well the president of ebay who later became the ceo. He cut the paid search marketing budget immediately. By one hundred million dollars a year. So what happened next. You might think what with capitalism being the hyper competitive market optimizing perfect information ecosystem. It's supposed to be you might think that other companies once they learned about this ebay research would cut their online ad spending or at least commission their own research. Test the theories. So did they excellent question. There was a lot of chatter on line after our experiments became public suggesting. That folks ebbe don't what they're doing and paid search advertising works wonderfully if you know how to do it but of course that was backed with no data and no analysis in other words the digital ad community did not rush to replicate the results now given the opportunity to save millions of dollars that the ebay research showed was being wasted. Why wouldn't other companies at least poke their own data a little harder. Well i think there are many reasons. Let's start with the way in which this industry is structured. You could think of four different actors. Here there's the customer which is the company or the person who wants to advertise in order to get business and then you have three players sitting on the other side of this market was the publishers. That would be google. That would be the new york times or any other place where the ad appears in front of people the other are the people who create ads and then finally a smaller part of the industry are these analytics. Companies that like that company ebay hired are trying to help companies. Spend this money and if you think of all these three players on the other side of the fence. No-one there has an incentive to basically open this pandora's box even within the company. That's buying the ads. The incentives can be complicated. Steve levitt again. If you think about it no chief. Marketing officer is ever going to say. Hey i don't know don't work. It's not do umn and see what happens. Don't get me wrong. I'm not implying that advertising doesn't work plan that we don't have a very good idea about how well it works. Steve to dallas agrees. The potential for digital advertising would seem especially large given its ability to micro target consumers and targeting really is key because one of the lessons. We learned from the experiments at ebay. Was that people who never shopped on. They were very much influenced by having ebay ads for non brand keywords. You know guitar share studio microphone and if ebay would be able to better target ads to customers that are not frequent customers. That's where you would get the real bang for the buck. So as companies become more sophisticated. They could try to engage in these kinds of experiments to focus attention on different customer segments in order to see where they get the highest returns on advertising by in large. I don't see that happening. A big part of it is the naivety on the side of these customers customers. Meaning the companies who are buying these keyword ads. The one actor sitting alone on their side of the fence across from the agencies the publishers the ad tech firms and one of the things that i try hard to do is to give people enough information so that they wouldn't be able to do the job themselves but if someone is to sell them snake oil. They'll smells something is not working here. Coming up after the break is the digital advertising economy a bubble. I do think this is very parallel to the kind of psychology that had driven bubbles in the past. Also if you like freakonomics and you've gotten this far so presumably you don't hate it. You may also lake. The two other shows that recently launched within the freakonomics radio network. One is called stupid questions. The other people i mostly admire. I am proud to say that new stupid questions which launched in may is already coming up on five million downloads and people. I mostly admire which launched only at the end of summer is coming up on. Its first million so go. Listen and subscribe new stupid questions and people mostly admire. You can find them wherever you listen to podcasts. And now here's an ad that somebody probably cooked up. Just for you We reached out to facebook and google with some questions about their ad business and to get a response to the research. We've been discussing today. Which argues that paid. Search advertising is substantially less effective than the conventional wisdom holtz. We got no reply from facebook. The google representatives wrote back to say quote advertisers invest money in search ads. Because they work. They also sent some internal google researched backup their claim separately. We received an unsolicited email from. How variant the chief economist at google. He attached a long list of research. Papers that assert the efficacy of search advertising as well as advertising on youtube which is owned by google. Much of the research vary incent was done by google analysts it offers a robust defense of the status quo the online ad ecosystem. Google has built off of there. Search capability is quite literally a license to print money alphabet. Google's parent company has a market capitalization of nearly one point two trillion dollars last year. Eighty three percent of their revenue came from advertising so it would probably behoove all of us to know a little bit more about how this ecosystem functions whether it's as effective as google says it is or as ineffective as researchers like steve to dallas told us earlier about his research at ebay. Ebay believed that for every dollar. They're spending they're getting fifty cents net profits and what we showed. Is that on average. They're losing more than sixty cents on every dollar so okay. let's try to understand this ecosystem better. I we will need a guide. Sure my name is tim. Wong h. w. a. n. g. day job is. I'm a research fellow at the center for security and emerging technology at georgetown and before that i was previously global head of public policy for a and machine learning at google one recently published book called subprime attention crisis advertising in the time bomb at the heart of the internet. It's about how big tech monetizes our attention. When i started to research by very naturally started to talk to a couple of friends who work at these big tech companies and it was a little bit like talking to someone who works in national security or the intelligence community or something like that because they would be like. Oh adds definitely work. But we can't tell you how or why are you any evidence for it. Google would plainly dispute. There is no evidence for whether online ads work. Tim wong recognizes. He is tilting at windmills. Here trillion dollar windmills. But in fact he. i grew skeptical about online advertising. While still working at google he began reading trade journals and going to conferences. And i had this fascinating experience. Where one of these keynotes at this conference was given by nicole. Newman who basically is a big ad. Critic nico newman. Is a marketing professor at the melbourne business school in australia and he presented to really fascinating studies that his lab had done the first one was looking into the quality of data used in the tech industry basically demonstrating in many cases. It was incredibly inaccurate and the second one was he took dead. Aim at the hype cycle around a that exists in tech right now where people are saying if you have this latest machine learning. You have this. You'll targeting in a way that you never ever were able to do. Before and nico's lap did some experiments that demonstrated in many cases machine. Learning was finding people who would have bought the product anyways bringing this message to an ad tech conference is a bit like bringing a safety pin to a balloon conference that looked around being like ways so where people angry and it was just total dead air. No one responded no engaged with it and it got me really interested in thinking about like. Is there a bubble here. A bubble like the dot com bubble or the subprime bubble or the tulip bubble. Because this is exactly the kinds of behavior that occur in other financial bubbles where the red lights are flashing but everybody industry just refuses to take a look at the real data. Wong began thinking about how bubbles happen so the origins of every bubble come in this gap that occurs in a marketplace on one hand. You have people who believe that. An asset whether it's collateralized debt obligations or advertising inventory is extremely valuable and then on the other hand what you have is declining asset value so in the subprime mortgage crisis. We believed that mortgages bro is going to pay out regularly forever right. When next turned a package of mortgages were actually terrible asset there were toxic and about to go belly so how long justify parallel with digital advertising. I think the first piece is really the big question of do people ever see ads at all. So google actually did a fascinating study not too long ago which concluded that close to sixty percent of ads on the internet are never ever even seen the ad is delivered but it just ends up in some dumb part of the page. Just below the fold there it's alongside line. But what about the precise targeting. The digital ads are supposed to offer a two thousand and nineteen study this one done by three academic researchers addressed this question by measuring the impact of a users cookies. Those remember are the tracking codes most of us to roam our computers and phones in exchange for all the free information we get from companies like google and facebook. This study found that when users cookies were unavailable ad. Revenues only dropped by about four percent. Why would cookies be so ineffective. Tim wong argues that people pay a lot less attention to online ads and they used to. People often forget that when banner ads. Were i lost on the internet. There click through rate was fifty percent completely mind-bending right and it was just continue to fall and fall and fall and now it's like point zero one. Two point zero three percent. Some estimates of click through rates are higher than what hong sites here that said. Precise measurement is hard because there are so many bots clicking on adds a whole other problem with the digital ad universe but no matter how you measure it. Click through rates have fallen a lot as the novelty wears off habituation sets in and an ad that might have once grabbed your attention becomes invisible or worse annoying. People increasingly don't want ads. So ad blocking for example is really really increasing over time. And i think these factors not being able to see ads the questions about the effectiveness of ads and the rise of ad blocking bring into question whether thing that we think is so valuable is actually worth as much as we think it is but if there is such a big gap between the perceived and real value of digital advertising. Why are google and facebook worth so much money. Look at it this way. There are a couple trillion reasons. Why tim wong might be wrong. But he doesn't think so. His theory is that digital advertising is grotesquely overvalued because it is still so hard to measure and one reason it's hard to measure the marketplace is exceedingly opaque. So there's a fascinating incident. That i always think about which is one of the last times. That mark zuckerberg was called up to congress and one of the questions that he got from. One of the senators was well. How do you guys make money. Sustain a business model in which users don't pay for your service and mark zuckerberg was like senator. We run out and at the time. A lot of the chatter on twitter was like ha ha. Look at the super old senator. He doesn't know anything about the internet. But it's true that even if you talk to people in the tech industry and you're like okay level with me joe engineer. How do ads work on the internet. It's kind of a rumor like we know. This is how the business model works but no one can really explain how it works in detail so when i say advertising a lot of people normally think of madman right but it really looks like what the nasdaq looks like which is largely automated system moves millions and millions and billions of pieces of ad inventory on a daily basis as steve to dallas explained earlier. Most ad inventory is sold by auctions which are run by algorithms operating at phenomenal speed. This is one contributor to the obesity of the industry. for instance. It can be hard to figure out why certain ads and up on certain pages if you are a family-friendly brand like disney you don't want your ad popping up on a youtube video showing a terrorist beheading. This has been a source of chronic embarrassment to the ad industry. The prevention of this kind of ad mismatch is known as brand safety and despite the greatest efforts at trying to eliminate the risk of brand safety from the ad market. People buying largest haven't been able to again. The industry itself would disagree. We ask google how they ensure an ad doesn't show up on a page promoting misinformation or conspiracy theory. Here's their reply. We have strict policies that govern what kind of content we place ads on. And if we find a page or website that violates our policies we take immediate action in two thousand and nineteen keith weed. The former marketing boss at unilever helped create a consortium called the global alliance for responsible media which pushes for better add controls to protect brand safety. At did everyone's a well-functioning its net and everyone wants to have a positive impact on the world and not to have some of the issues. We're wrestling with right now. I think that paul has not been easy. so far. This september after months of advertiser boycotts facebook twitter and youtube agreed to adopt a common set of definitions for hate speech and develop tools to let advertisers have more control over where their ads show up. But tim wong thinks. The longstanding opacity of the online ad marketplace is just one reason we might be in digital advertising bubble. I think second thing is a little bit like in the subprime mortgage crisis you do have people who have very perverse incentives. I think to push the effectiveness of online ads. that's the ad agencies the ad platforms themselves. The people who run ad technology. All these people i think have a very strong incentive to say no. This stuff is way better than earlier generations of advertising. And this is why you should use it. If you've been listening closely you will notice. This is the exact same problem. Steve levitt talked about regarding the tv ad ecosystem. Human beings generally make decisions based on self interest. No chief marketing officer is ever going to say. Hey i don't know maybe don't work. Let's not do them and see what happens. Or as the author upton sinclair once wrote it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it so there is a common practice which is not very well disclosed in the ad industry whereby an ad tech company will basically offer ad inventory at a cheap price to the advertising agency the agency remember is paid by you the client who hired them to help you so what you're selling and then the agency will turn around and say you should really use this ad tech product and sell it at a higher price and what are the worries about. This is that it changes the incentives. Right which is typically the ad agency should be working on behalf of the client but in these cases they have very perverse incentives to push distribution of a message that may not otherwise be rational or even useful to them all of these issues and all the new empirical evidence we've been discussing about. The ineffectiveness of advertising has persuaded tim long that yes. The online marketplace is a bubble and it might soon pop in fact the deflation may have already begun a few years back proctor and gamble which is one of the largest advertisers in the world decided that they would run a little experiment they were gonna take about two hundred million dollars of their digital ad spending and just cut it out of their budget to see what happens. Proctor and gamble said they were doing this. Because of concerns over brand safety and the proliferation of bots which can pollute the data on ad impressions and the end result was fascinating basically said that there was no noticeable impact on their bottom line again. The ad industry will have a lot of explanations for why this might be or for why. There's a lot of value in advertising beyond short-term sales figures but proctor and gamble is a big player even if they are wrong even to a small degree they're the ones whose money drives the advertising ecosystem. What would happen if this turned into a mass movement among advertisers. One shouldn't underestimate the size and reach of the advertising ecosystem you watch on. Tv supported by ads. The journalism you consume supported by at least much of it. Google maps google drive and google supported by s as well as facebook and instagram and twitter. Nearly everything else you consume online. And don't pay for including this podcast. Just about every other podcast. You listened to advertising is also important for tim. Wong whose day job is researching artificial intelligence and machine learning some of the most cutting edge research in the world is being funded by ads right if you think machine learning and is going to have a huge impact a huge impact in the world. That is from economists. Travel to medical research and diagnosis. You may want to think about what it means. That most of it is subsidized through this ad infrastructure. So there's lots and lots of links through the economy. That are not always obvious. But i think are worth thinking through because it points how widespread downturn could be so if there is an advertising bubble can it be deflated in a slow controlled. Way to avoid massive economic unraveling. Tim wong think so but change won't come from the industry players. They have too much incentive to keep selling it's got to be driven by the buyers one of the groups that has the most to lose people who theoretically might be wasting a lot of money on advertising but one does not think the by side pressure will be enough because i think one of the biggest problems in the spaces that there is no objective third party evaluator of some of these claims claims that is about efficacy and so what i advise is kind of a punk rock n d e r. The nba is the national bureau of economic research. What does wong's punk rock version. Look like it's basically a research group that is willing to be a little bit of a troll to the advertising industry and so again do we throw off the veil reduce the opacity in the marketplace. You really need a dedicated group of people who are doing good research on this front where you want is a handbrake can slowly bring down the momentum in the market so that it can deflate without exploding there are of course. Many people and institutions already doing research on advertising spending. But let's be honest. Most of them have someone's thumb on the scale and conventional wisdom. Isn't the only thing that someone like tim. Wong is challenging. It's also the billions of advertising. Dollars that dr trillions of dollars of market value. So it takes some courage to suggest that those billions and trillions may not be kosher one of my favorite arguments that people are using right now. Is you know companies. Wouldn't put money into this if it didn't work so isn't that proof that the ads actually work. That in fact is exactly what we heard earlier. From the unilever veteran keith weed the fact that coke and dove and ford have been around for decades and the fact that companies like unilever spend billions suggests that maybe advertising does work which is kind of crazy. Circular minds maze. If you think about it. But i do think that again. This is very parallel to the kinds of psychology. That had driven market bubbles in the past one reason to suspect that ads do you work. Well is the underlying assumption that firms lake unilever who buy so much advertising or as econo- one textbooks tell us profit maximize irs. So why would they waste so much money. Any the to tell you that firms are profit maximizing is not ever worked with firms again. The realistic picture of his that firms are composed of people and all of the foibles and shortcomings that people exhibit in their everyday life. They bring those to work with them. We steve to dallas the berkeley economist. Who worked for a time at what he thought of. Let's take on. The non profit maximizing behavior of allegedly profit maximizing firms as an economist Hearing you say that causes my stomach to hurt but at the same time. I know that you are absolutely correct to dallas by the end of his time at ebay. Come to think that his cynical view of advertising didn't go far enough he recalls the time ebay asked him to measure the efficacy of advertising. Think of bloggers who put in links to say company websites. Well we worked closely with the senior director in charge of spending the money on that and after a two hour intensive meeting. We figured out a way to do that to do that. Meaning to measure whether these affiliate links were really worth buying he turned to me and said you know steve if your results look as bad as they did for paid search. I'm not going to believe your numbers. Now was obviously shocked because it made me realize that religion and science is. What's winning this battle. But then i realized that it's something a lot more profound and for which. I actually have a lot of compassion. If you're working on something for ten twenty twenty five years this is part of your identity and this is part of what you believe in. And if i'm gonna prove that what you thought work so well in ways that you don't quite understand because you're not a statistician or income contrition and you have to take it at face value. What are you going to believe your gut that tells you that what you've been doing for the last twenty years is really influential. Or some egghead academic. That's showing you a bunch of equations that you don't understand and is claiming that you're wrong. This digital advertising issue is just part of a bigger conversation about the power of modern technology companies for their first few decades. They were pretty much given free reign. But now they're facing scrutiny over the breadth and depth of their power power both seen and unseen the. Us government has brought a major antitrust case against google facebook youtube twitter and frankly thousands of digital platforms and repositories stand accused of promoting misinformation and or mishandling user. Information given all that society probably deserves a better answer than a lot of companies. Pay a lot of money for advertising so it must work. I think the question isn't necessarily. Do you want it internet with ads or without ads. That again is tim. One the question is do you want an internet. That's just based on a huge monoculture. that's largely funded through ads. We're the most powerful companies use ads. Where vc's don't choose to invest. If you don't use add straight. And i couldn't believe suggests like no. The kind of internet that i want to see is internet. The has a bigger diversity of business models and where ads don't suck all the air out of alternative business models. I just think that's a much more robust market. I think it's a more stable market over time. And i think it's one that leads to much better outcomes socially and so i think that's my vote which is an internet that accepts many different ways of making money. We should also say that. Justice are ways of making money. There are many many many different forms and styles and purposes of advertising. Over these past two episodes we've talked about two of the biggest ad marketplace's tv and digital but there are of course many other advertising channels and within all these channels are countless variations local ads versus regional or national adds calls to action versus brand building ads about price versus ads about quality ads for new products or services versus established ones ads meant to inspire or entertain versus as just deliver information personally. Those are the ads. I respond to most learning some information. I didn't know about some product or service that sounds useful refund for me or my family. I can think of at least eight or ten things. I saw after first learning about them by voicing the advertisements that go on this podcast. Our business partners have told us that one reason. The podcast industry has grown so much lately is because advertising is particularly effective on podcasts. Given the intimacy of the medium. I have no idea if this is really true. But i want to believe it is. Why wouldn't i. It's my livelihood so you could say this puts me on both sides of the fence true believer and skeptic at the same time one might say is of intellectual laziness. Move right out of upton sinclair. But i'm gonna go with f scott fitzgerald instead. Here's how he wants the test of a first rate. Intelligence is the ability to hold to oppose ideas in mind same time and still retain the ability to function assuming i retain that ability for at least a bit longer. We will be back next week with another episode of freakonomics radio until then take care of yourself and if he can someone else do freakonomics. Radio is produced by stitcher and productions. This episode was produced. By daphne chen. Our staff also includes. Allison crowe mark clusky. Greg rippin xactly. Kinski married to duke and matt hickey. Intern is emma terrell and we had helped this week from james foster our theme song mr fortune by the hitchhiker's all the other music was composed by scare. You can get freakonomics radio on any podcast asked. If you want the entire back catalogue use the stitcher app or go to freakonomics dot com freakonomics. Radio can also be heard on many. Npr stations around the country. as always. thanks for listening. And i will sort of measure the success of the book based on how much piss everybody off and on that front. I'm glad to report that. We definitely have had ad tech people being like this guy's an idiot that's music to my ears. Stitcher people been saying to your friend. Get a different face and posting on their feed. Boura agree the thing very saving them online are cruel and they're not so. Tell you friend house dan for you. Don't worry i know. I do know someone. Being bullied online. You can be a witness and make a difference by letting the world know. It isn't cool. Am i letting your friend know you care. Learn more at i witness bullying dot org brought to you by the ad council keyboard cat hamilton. The pug toast meets world. These are some of the internet's most beloved pets and they all have one thing in common. Their stories started in shelter. Start your store. Adopt a dog or cat today. Visit the shelterpetproject dot. Org to find a pet near you training that pet to play the keyboard that's optional. Start a story. Adopt a shelter or rescue pet today brought to you by maddie's fund the humane society of the united states and the ad council. Alison is perfect. I mean she'd never tell you that she's humble and perfect. She likes everyone. She even likes untidy roommate's weird guinea pig. Alison wait are you texting and driving alison. No that's the exact opposite of what i was just saying about you. Why alison why texting. And driving makes good people look bad visit stoptextsstopwrecks dot org brought to you by the national highway traffic safety administration and the ad council. We are live outside the home of joe and rose goddard were a pretty big tickle. Fight broke out just minutes ago. Sources say their father instigated the laughter. Let's go inside for comment. Apparently they have no comment. Dad's let this reminder that it only takes a moment to make a moment call eight seven seven four dad four one one or visit fatherhood dot gov brought to you by the us department of health and human services and the ad council. I'm bobby with today's cartoons minute. Making it to work on time may be hard but the journey itself doesn't have to be when i come back. I'll provide some commuting comforts that make your five o'clock horses easier to ride when your battery goes dead. Everything can come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded stopped by o'reilly auto parts and get your battery tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced o'reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery. That fits your car or truck. At guaranteed low price o'reilly auto parts better parts better prices every day parts so what creature comforts commuters crave in their automotive. Beast of per edmunds dot com. Comfortable seats and well-designed cup holders make the ride in the saddle physically cozy. While in dash cd players and we'll mounted radio controls allow ample entertainment with minimal hassle income sole power points and hands free voice activated phone systems. Make it easy for office-bound pilgrims to do a little business before they arrive. And since feeding the horses under your hood can take the goal. Right out of your saddlebags good gas. Mileage can really make a difference between an air in a red hot pony. I'm bobby like us like us. You'll love us radio. It's nothing new. It's been here all along with free. Entertainment news sports music and information. It's not just part of life. It's a part of who we are. You know which station is going to tell you the score the game which one is going to give you a laugh in the morning which one will give you something to sing along with. You know where to turn when the weather gets round and something big happens good or bad you know where to go because radio has been here all along. Radio is part of your community woven into the fabric of what makes home home and now radio has evolved to move with you with the next radio app in your fm enabled phone just plug in your headphones to start experiencing radio in a whole new way while using way less battery and data than streaming apps. Check out the live guy to see and interact with live radio stations easily. Find your favorites like the one. You're listening to right now and as always it's totally free. Download the nextradio app today. Next radio live and local. Wherever you go. Hey let me ask you something. Would you see your three year. Old child on a window sill. Would you seek them beside a lit fireplace or by the deep end of a pool. One last question. Would you see your child in a car seat. That's not correct for them. Car crashes are leading killer of children ages one to thirteen secure their future seat them in the correct car seat. For more information visit safercar dot gov slash therightseat a message from the national highway traffic safety administration and the ad council thousands of people contact invent help monthly about their invention or new product. Do you think companies would be interested in your idea. Do you want to try to get a patent call. Inventhelp now best of all the call and information are free invent help. Keep your idea confidential explaining every step of the invention process we create professional materials and submit them to companies who are looking for new ideas in your category. We have more than nine thousand companies who agreed to review new ideas in confidence if a company shows interest in manufacturing your invention. We can negotiate on your behalf. We have helped over. Ten thousand clients received patents. We offer three d. modeling and animation prototyping services and we use state of the our technology to present client ideas to additional companies. Joined people just like you. Who made the call to invent help. All for free information at one. Eight hundred three five three seven zero one seven. That's one eight hundred three five three seven zero one seven again. One eight hundred three five three seven zero one seven a fee based company. Congress is getting back to work. I've sound she in dress. Fox news the thanksgiving break is ending but lawmakers still have a lot on their plates congressional and white house negotiators have until december eleventh to approve a government spending plan during the thanksgiving recess. Appropriators struck a tentative deal on top line funding numbers but differences remain over specific programs. And whether or not in emerging deal could also lead to a breakthrough on long-stalled corona virus related economic stimulus top republicans and democrats say they prefer an omnibus package funding all government departments to the fiscal year instead of a short term continuing resolution jared halpern fox news. Afghan officials say at least thirty. Four people have been killed in two separate suicide bombings on sunday in eastern ghazni province. Thirty one soldiers were killed. Twenty four others wounded on the attacker drove a military humvee full of explosives onto an army commando base before detonating the car. Bomb colorado governor. Jared paul this has tested positive for the coronavirus. The governor said in a statement saturday night that he has partnered. Marlin reese both have. You're listening to the heartland news feed radio network broadcasting live twenty percent. Our news stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by you follow us on facebook twitter and instagram. Congress is getting back to work. I've sound she in grasso fox news. The thanksgiving break is ending but lawmakers still have a lot on their plates congressional and white house negotiators have until december eleventh to approve a government spending plan during the thanksgiving recess. Appropriators struck a tentative deal on topline funding numbers but differences remain over specific programs. And whether or not in emerging deal could lead to a breakthrough on long-stalled corona virus related economic stimulus top republicans and democrats say they prefer an omnibus package funding all government departments to the fiscal year instead of a short term continuing resolution jared halpern fox news. Afghan officials say at least thirty. Four people have been killed in two separate suicide bombings on sunday in eastern ghazni province. Thirty one soldiers were killed. Twenty four others wounded on the attacker drove a military humvee full of explosives onto an army commando base before detonating the car. Bomb colorado governor. Jared paul this has tested positive for the corona virus. The governor said in a statement. Saturday night that he has partnered marlon. Reese both have eighteen and both are as symptomatic. Pulisic started quarantining wednesday after said he was exposed to the virus. Covid nineteen kept a lot of holiday. Shoppers from going to the stores. But it's not stopping them from spending money black friday online sales hit a new record. This year is cautious. Americans loaded up virtual carts and spent an estimated nine billion dollars on. Us retail websites on black friday. That's according to adobe analytics which tracks online shopping that was the twenty two percent increase over the previous record of seven point four billion set just a year ago but store traffic plunged into made fifty two percent on black friday according to sensormatic. Solutions are retail tracker. America is listening to fox news. Pennsylvania's highest court has thrown out a lower court order preventing the state from certifying dozens of this month's election contests including the presidential race in a unanimous decision. Saturday night the justices said the underlying lawsuit was filed months. Too late president trump's planning to do some new campaigning for the republicans running in the georgia senatorial runoff election. President trump says he'll traveled to georgia to support the two republican senate candidates as of now. The president is scheduled to visit the peach state on saturday. December fifth the balance of power in the senate rests in the to runoff elections with republicans hoping to maintain their narrow control. That's fox's john scott. A new york couple is in shock after funding dozens of bottles of booze hidden in the walls of their home. Wait a minute wasn't exactly ninety. Nine bottles in fact it wasn't even beer that a couple enough state. New york is found more than sixty six bottles of whiskey in the walls of their home. Patrick baker and nick german telling fox news they were doing some renovations on their one hundred year old home and aims new york when they found the sixty six bottles of whiskey in the walls and floorboards apparently stashed there. During the prohibition era they say the more they kept digging more they found. They've now set up an instagram account. Bootlegger bungalow where they're documenting their star discovery suit on fox news. The forty niners have to eighty six san francisco's. Nfl team finds its home. Stadium is no longer available for several weeks due to covid nineteen for at least the next three weeks. The san francisco forty niners or a team without a home. It says the coronavirus continues to surge across the country. The restrictions are being enforced in santa clara county. That's the home of the forty niners football team while the county is now. Effectively banning all context sports including professional football. The news comes. As the virus continues. To surge and the nfl grapples with a rising case. Count ashley strobe. liar. I've sound she in brussels. Is a spokesman america's ready to get back to work but to win the new economy. You need every advantage to succeed. Smart companies run on net suite by oracle the world's number one cloud business system. Schedule your free product to a right now at nets week dot com slash fox net sweet dot com slash. Fox fuse to learn anything all year. So why start now. That's the less north american soccer. Podcasts myself angel. Bateson in nick thornton i was a bummer. Brench me over told me situation This is your ambitious. This is how we start eveleth playoff preview. Mls cup playoff preview. The play in round will begin. This friday The expanded field has been stat In in the schedule. I not only is been set but also we have learned is gonna be. There's not a lot of well. There's a little wiggle room. There's a little wiggle room there but not like fourteen days of wiggle room as we learned today. that from jeffrey carlile. Sp at espn did the planned League protocols around parana virus are going to be that first of all. they're not gonna do level tournament. Despite the fact that we have talked in many people have have mentioned like the idea. Are they going to be able to pull off a non bubble tournament the us l. couldn't for either it's championship wards league one But they're going to give it a shot in the way they're gonna handle. It is third going to try and reschedule games if teams have covered. Have cova positive players and had to reschedule. But if they can't fly alternative. The team that has the outbreak is going to have to withdraw from the postseason. Which on the surface of it okay. I understand the flawed logic. But as we've seen with continuing record cases in canada and the united states what happens if both teams have cases they both forfeit click great lakes which i feel like is also a very possible situation right like you would. I would think that if you couldn't get that play by the next around that both of the warp it in the next team gets by unless it's what if it's the final jason. The thing the thing is it's such a half-measure lake contingency plan because it's like well if you're just making so much more complicated than it needs to be. How is that easier besides the fact that it costs. Mls no money and they can just chalk it up to the teams I just answer man question like it. Just everything would have been easier and safer in a bubble and it just really makes all of the things they said. In the summer boats players safety and all of that which rang pretty hollow at the time just is really evident that that that doesn't mean anything to to mls that ultimately it's they're just gonna go ahead and risk things and see what happens is seems to be the policy. The whole idea is the whole idea of having a season. It's it's still like pretty bankrupt in general and the tournament itself was still risky. But it's like it seems over and over again what we put into practice. One week is completely Discarded the next week and you learn where we have a bubble. We had a bubble tournament and in a situation of high cases was a little bit of a mess getting players there but once we were there there was relatively little risk of of Of having issues in our new home market games where we let fans back and then when the tournament on orlando ended. Don garber was saying like we've learned a lot of things from this in order to schedule new season and so literally like it. It's just all being thrown out. It's like the things that we've learned. The emptiness of words that are being said by leaders everywhere right now is so maddening. So what did you learn. What specifically did you learn. The you're keeping like they had to they. I think the the number from the carlisle article was eleven. Matches got postponed due to Kobe and five of them. Of course were the rapids who who spent a long time not doing anything while that was happening and and there i understand there were differing differing opinions on what you do. Who do you. Who do you hold responsible for. A covid outbreak is it. Is it the person's fault it gets colored forgetting covid. Unless there's like. Evan know it's case by case if you can point to something that was responsible or whatever but ultimately i think that's a really dangerous line to walk in and i don't. I don't wanna hold anybody responsible that way. No and i mean. I know plenty of people in the states. That have gotten kofi. Who are wearing masks. Staying home social distancing like when you have a case load as high as it is in so many states even with the precautions It means that people can still get sick so that that added element as well. I mean like you said you just can't make that assumption. I guess so long as you technically have like fifteen players and to have a squad somewhat bench you could continue to play if everybody else tested negative but like it just. It seems like such a bizarre kind of like dark measure like and why is that like we had points per game used to decide playoff spots. We're gonna have like cases per team that like everybody else is not with no penalties. The the tea with the viewer gava cases winslet wins on a drawn penalty. It's just it's really it's disheartening. But here's the thing i. It frustrates me so much that the the the the matter of dealing with is so opposite like points per game no matter. It's a testy question while points per game leaned on the side of leniency towards we will you deserve to have a chance to qualify for the playoffs even if you even if you missed five games because yeah but now it's like but if you have covered cases you're going to automatically forfeit your playoff spot like what what was the point when it just put the whitecaps in and that's a great point ultimately it would have been better. It would have been a better point. If being over won a couple more games and finished above the rapids points did not but also i mean would the rapids if the rapids were coming back up. Five games thinking they had no chance of qualifying with. They have had the same results in their in their run. I mean will exist. It's it's inconsistent this var room decision making from game to game week to week. We don't know what the deal is going to be however on the bright side of things. There's a new jersey. i don't think. I don't think that you can discount the example of the us l. like ultimately they had. They had to throw both finals. Because you say that you'll you'll have every you'll have every effort they'll take every effort to To try and reschedule the game. But if you think what happened in the case of the final is is the. Those cases happened on the saturday before the game was supposed to play on sunday. And if that is in those situations where the team has been intense training There was just no. It really didn't seem like there was much discussion of what if we waited two weeks and tried to do it again into to do the final. Get in two weeks. It could could. Mls do that. Would they want to play a mls cup on christmas or cup. On new year's or emily's cup halfway through january. I think have the final right before the season starts next season. Here's my bummer. I posted this on twitter at all. Say this is. This is working it. I did my best to research. You know what you know in in decent looking who's available and who's not up molasses not only doing this. But they're also doing it. Right after international breakthrough. They're having players. fly home. The debate the rules to be able to bring players home on charter flights and a number have tested positive And they're gonna be this. This feels like the most fly by night. And i just thought based on the. Us alexander My prediction my playoff prediction is that. Mls cup will not be awarded in a match in twenty twenty it will be awarded by forfeit or it will be played man. You couldn't wait to say that. We talked about all the teams in predictions. I don't disagree. I gotta get it i gotta get it out of the way so that then so then we can have chil- soccer talk where you're like if this game is played help. How depressing is to try and go through. Think about what two teams is. F- chances weaving a soccer. Game are when you have to scour the world for sources on who does doesn't have covid and who is an is a trying to. He's almost like i mean that's gonna change as you're looking at it a great point. That's a great point but it just. We can talk about the sports. We can make other predictions. And i'll try to make other predictions. That aren't that bummer prediction. But but it also it does underscore the point like it. What is this season really. Tell us especially at this point. Certainly there's things that we've learned about teams over the course of the season. But you know if if a team that's been doing really well all season that we've watched and followed and they've been really good suddenly buckle does it. Is that really a story line. Does that make anybody feel good to be like. Wow philadelphia union to seem to lack focus like how does anyone focus. How do you feel safe. How do you. How do you play games when you think like if i contract cove it while i'm playing an away game for the play offs and i take that back to my family. There's just there's a lot going on and it just it would have been. I think relatively easy to just either. You know decide that the supporters shield was gonna be the deciding final trophy of the season or try to find a way to do this in a bubble but here we are in the strangest times having playoffs. That don't really need to happen but are going to happen and that will tell us something. Maybe about the sport every stage every stage. It's the worst decision. I'm going say as we get more into the talking about it. It's like to the people the players are still gonna give it as much of their all as they can. And i think that when you look at how things for for all the hue and cry around a but supporters shield trophy. I think that one of the things that i was most interested in was how many players voiced their Their issue with it. Because it's like that's the one thing wear a supporter shield. Maybe there's contract bonuses. Maybe there's not but it's like what the money aspect is not as tied to it as much as players thinking. I really wanted that trophy. I think that that it's not. This seems so hard to feel that it can be worth it but when you listen to players talk about the muslim back final and you listen to players dot with his worse shield. You listen to them. Talk with the playoffs It's worth it to them. And that will the unfortunately in longitude will not tell us who is actually bad. But that's and that's going to be unsatisfying because we're going to want to say well. These two teams have played in a game and one was better. One was worse. This goes back kind of the issue of who. Who do you punish for a cova detection. Who's if if one team pulls out the results. Does that mean the other team was was worse. Or does that mean that they are l. Afc and they're going to miss three players due to of are all key players. Yeah everybody ends up cases and everybody has to forfeit. Do we just give it to la galaxy. Like how is their system. For what if there's no teams left to play you. Cancel the tournament. Or do you go down to your ninth and tenth seeds to see if they're ok to play. I think the mls cup final is cover versus dc played at audi field love it. But that's what i think happens in that case i'm here for it. I mean yeah. It's it's an important framing before we dive into things. I mean like. I think all you can say best case scenario we get to watch more soccer that also we would all live perfectly fine and happy lives if we didn't get to watch soccer for awhile like anyway austin. Fz has a jersey. Do you know actually for all the mls articles Open this one. I don't know what it looks like. Well if anybody before it was like a little pessimistic you should focus on the the nicer things in life. they're really rubbing their hands together. Now so austin who's i think. They've signed a player maybe a couple of players and obviously delayed their entry into emma's but still making moves released their first ever kit today. It is green and black stripes. It is. I was going to ask you what your thoughts on it were. Actually i actually did see it while he's doing this. But because of the yetis sponsor ad. I thought it was a bit rate. Like i thought it was. I thought it was like. Oh that's a photo shop name. And i just like certain visually like filed away somewhere house giant branding on the front makes it look like a leaked fake image but that is the jersey it looks real now but i see i see that it israel. It's fine. I like a that sort of stripe pattern The green. Green jerseys are good. And i'm sure that that's going to that's going to appeal to Mexican american soccer fans. Maybe like mc. That's the one thing where i'm just like. Maybe let's appeal but the the thought that ran through. My head is hounding green on green teams. Are there and then. I remembered the the most popular soccer team in america. Yeah the like winning rhymes with flounders I i like the stripes. It's a classic football kit style and the colors are definitely a little bit more modern. It's certainly a little bit garish. But i i feel like you need just like ten percent. Garish ness in a in a kit to make it look good like it reminds me a little. Bit of the whitecaps are buddhist brown jerseys. At first glance you're like why but then you see it on a pitch and after while you're actually i kinda like this and it's really easy to pick out because you're like this is a very distinct jersey that looks like no other team like no one's gonna mix that one up. I was going to say like like that. That's what just to further. That's what rand my my my thought processes that i'm like are green. Jerseys like that even going to come across well on a jersey in the night thought of the the mexico practices that i own which is basically the same color right and. I think that it's clean like it doesn't have big shoulder stripes that every other is that the is are these sort of. Maybe the suggestions that we're not gonna see the big shoulder stripes It looks like the dynamo Dynamo alternate for next season is probably gonna have it because they had their their rebranding as well did it the altar to to different pastures who that they had. But we also haven't seen the main the main kits. I kind of feel like that jersey can get a little lost. But then you houston austin on the new the new houston logo kinda like yeah is like a line. Arty kind of thing yeah. I like the dash. The dash rebrand is good. The nwa was healthy. I i thought so too. I mean the thing that struck me was that houston made this big to do about rebranding exercise. And you know we're we're one team. And then keep the dynamo and dash is separate team names with different logos which are like they're more similar and i think that's great but i definitely feel like the dash. Got the better deal in in terms of like a classic looking but still modern in a little bit more like punchy logo and the houston dynamo. One looks like a baseball jersey. A little bit. And i i mean it's fine personally my houston dynamo. Rebrand would have included some dp defenders but apparently just so so the question you have to ask yourself is what do you ultimately the the parts of the jersey that are like quote unquote clever design. Like it's a hexagon strongest shape in the world. Don't matter time lake back line off to new things. Don't matter as much as is the hd work word mark will look good at a hat in our people in houston gonna wanna wear. All i know is that it's essential that next season we come back is that so. Mls football club so that people know offer certain that we talk about football because that seems to be a thing clubs or doing now so like if you can't chuck in there it's like you're not a real soccer club anymore and people won't know what to do with you. Well as as a team that also got rid of its cartoon speed writing as as the kept able to amazon. I we all learn to cope Eventually i do think that that At the same time as dynamo put the rest. The dash got rid of the clip art soccer ball. So hey where. Growth is not linear on that note John davidson previews of some games. Look through it beautiful so I don't really care where we start. But i i was thinking i'm really curious to know your thoughts on this one A match. I'm looking forward to and i think may actually tell us something about these. Two teams is new england. Montreal two teams that i think are pretty comparable I would say their their strength and weaknesses. Almost kind of cancel each other out. The difference has been that new. England has bested montreal believe three times this season in their meetings. So montreal's got a bit more work to do but for me. This is one of the matchups that i think is Is is going to be really interesting. Because from two teams that have done well at times two teams that have struggled at times and so i think it makes sense that they're facing each other it will. It will actually tell us something about who deserves to to be moving on. I am interested One of the things that i find really interesting about. This is that It seems like in the preamble. I you're right there. It's sort of like an even. There's there's almost even matchup numbers wise coming into it. The deposition from the coaches is almost like like bruce arena. Humbly saying that anri has done a great job in his first season in you you should given plots that and honoree saying that the the rebuild is more than one year. Don't judge us based on what happens here. Like they they both sound like post game interviews Yeah which is a weird tone to take before a game. That i think is like pretty like ellen say high stakes but again i just. I think it's an interesting matchup in something where montreal does kind of have something to prove and could come out a little bit more fiery of their their approach. But i mean it's also one of those things that i wonder how much of it is is a bit of gamesmanship of you know trying to lull your opponent to into into a bit of complacency and then come out and you really hit hit. The other team hard. New england gave their team the weekend off which ended up being good. When a player is said to have tested positive for covid is not clear which player that is. montreal will be missing seven pm because he got the red card. At the end of the last game An honorary told journalists. Mario legua. He will probably be missing. victor one yala. They're gonna be they're gonna be planning as though on yala is not gonna be able to make it and if he makes it that's great and that's because he's on international duty yes he is going to be on a charter plane coming back. But they're going to basically assume the prepared ahead repair without which is probably the right. The right thing to do I i think in terms of the things that that might possibly cancel each other or matter in a big way like new. England has had some amazing finishing at times. But it definitely has had little droughts like it's been here and there and and it hasn't been completely consistent. They're always a threat. But it's actually generating those into real chances in getting shots on frame that i think they've lacked a little bit. Which i think montreal does better that being said i think new england has certainly been more defensively consistent then. Y'all and with montreal's penchant forgetting red cards. And have i and it's something that i haven't heard on really address much And maybe it's not the most important thing I think you'd reaching the playoffs. With certainly a goal they achieved that and maybe everything is just icing on the cake right now but it'll be interesting to see if those things cancel each other out and it's a bit of just a slog that maybe ends up going to penalties or if it means we are gonna see a lot of goals because you're gonna have one team that's better finishing their chances in nineteen minutes better at defending so i think that the If you look at their ability that got out results certainly after montreal. Dc in new england lost in the last match. You'd think montreal has a little bit of mental to them but new england also doing lynn. Also got a gutsy win against dc on an. When it came to their last meeting it was really a case of like new england being able to freeze them out. And if you look at the lineup that montreal put out with those two teams last met montreal is going to have nothing in the midfield. If they don't have pm on yala they'd be. They did not have a lot of bench midfield bench strike at that time. It's true. yeah if you move you can you can bring bring defenders up and you can bring attackers down. But there's not they're going to the that part is going to be vulnerable. It really could be. I mean i still think. Montreal has good success on the wings and that will continue to help them if they can get the ball out. There would also say like as good as yet has been at four montreal. He's also been something of a liability. Let's not forget. He's not playing this game because he got a red card. So i mean for me. It's like well that could have happened in the playoff game as well and then montreal really would have been up against it versus this where they can plan ahead. You're right in terms of midfield depth. Montreal certainly has a much harder task to do. But i wonder if that in some ways may allow players like lappalainen and boy on a little bit more room to maneuver in rome and also creates a lineup. That new england hasn't likely played before so switching things up. I still think montreal's got the harder task but it might actually open up different tactical opportunities with a slightly arranged squad prediction. I'm gonna go with not my gut instinct. And i'm gonna say montreal. I think montreal is gonna win. Because montreal's proven me wrong a lot this season and all like all of the things i've said about them i think to be true and yet they've been able at times to just push through and get that something extra and i feel like they've been able to do it more times than new england but not against new england so this is a little bit of like a all seem really clever and amazing if montreal somehow wins but i'm prefacing my prediction with. I don't know how likely it is. But i feel like even with a smaller actual probability. Montreal might actually find a way to do it. What's your have. I have the same scoreline. As from the last regular season outing. New england three to new england three two. I'm gonna amnesty to one from montreal. I don't think it's going to be a ton of goals. I think it will be a little bit nervy. But i i mean i guess see what happens where where to next in the other eastern conference play a game the to expansion sides meet in their first ever playoff both starting their first ever playoff journey and having their first ever playoff encounter each other national se versus inter miami This is gonna be an interesting one. Miami certainly with it's With its win at the end of the season is gonna feel is gonna feel sprightly. I'm rodolfo pizarro. Is going to be back. But he but they are going to be missing kept andrea's who had a red cards Right here we're hearing from national that david dot com is to me back from ankle injured. And they're hoping they're going to get randall. Lille back in time so hopefully not too many Big mrs in other lineups walker zimmerman picked up. Mls defender of the year sandwich. If if you're at l f c fan who needed some good news this week means that l. Ese is going to. It ain't it. Well no the play bind. He's gonna get rehired thousand in right there from their performance bonuses were bonuses to the team good did a business. This is i they had similar stats offensively. They had amount of goals. Miami gave up way more in terms of goals in. I think as much as you could look at miami coming into that. Last game of the season in winning it against cincinnati and in nashville his looked great They look great when they're winning the look great when they're losing. I i gotta think that this is gonna be definitive in their favor. Yeah i think so too. I mean this one feels maybe a little bit easier to call. And less of a tossup. I think inter miami really has their backs up against a wall and big task forgotten about the red card to raise which is obviously going to be a challenge. Because he's been the on field leader For them not just a name but in in in the way he's played. You know miami at times can look a lot. More dangerous offensively but nashville has been so just tight at the back. I really inter. Miami has not generated enough sustained pressure against any team. This season that i really feel like nashville can't just hang on and find a way to bang hetero too so i'm going to say nashville to nothing. There are also have that same thing if the if inter inter start spreading because they're a things are falling apart. I in their own area. They're not gonna be able to get anywhere close to what you're going to need to To knockout nashville. I in their first engagement here in these playoffs. Do you have a prediction for a goal line. Oh yeah two hundred nine you. Yeah i mean inter miami. Overall as disappointing of season as they had in many ways i felt like i saw a lot of the pieces coming together over time and i think that's really encouraging but nashville's just always looked the more complete team for most of the season i think for both teams making it almost like really. You could almost argue france. I'm should expect to be here. And they should expect some more Because of how well they've done but if you think of of of The challenges that national had playing games due to covid. And you think the challenges that miami had in terms of Really challenging period near the end of emma's back and once they returned Just results wise. This is you know job done in the first year that they've both got to this and the cats more that's more for for miami who we look things like. It could be way worse than it is now. Yeah yeah that's a good point Two teams that have you know i. I feel like so quietly in some circles. In less quietly and others who who've had a lot of success this season is orlando city and new york city. Fc this is going to be a really interesting. Eastern conference matchup I think we've we've all seen what orlando can do. I think we can now safely certify them as a good team even though you and i said that last season but This this is going to be another think really tight match. There's not a lot that. I don't like about new york city f c but their their lineup is a little bit thin and the attacking depth that they've had in previous seasons isn't quite there that being said i feel like their game has opened up a little bit and they seem to be playing a little bit free year and have become a bit unpredictable and in a in a way that benefits them so you know and for orlando the no problem banging in goals certainly when they have the momentum going their way they look as dangerous as any team in emma last but the defending has just not quite been there the goalkeeping issues they've been able to solve but i'm still not entirely convinced by this backline the at times just gets very leaky in orlando is great at sending numbers forward but i think new york city. Fc's is pretty good at absorbing that kind of pressure maybe not as airtight as they They have been in previous seasons. But i still feel like this one is going to be new york city. I've seen in the end. I think that this is definitely one that that you could think of as a call up as early as a toss up because You're right to appoint that the that the rate to a point that the lineup is. I do think that if you if you look at how things have gone on if you look at how things have gone for them the assistant. Today's working really well in terms of getting a bunch of different phases involved offensively and they've really been caused big problems for teams that way whether or not it's kosta analyst. Who's been doing great. Or gary stevens or maximum is or or alex rain like they have. They have a number of different threats that they could turn to. It's true what i meant. Maybe depth is the lack of dp depth in those key positions But yeah you're right. That's a much more precise wave looking at. I think that they're going to cause a lot of. I think both teams have in great form and both of them are working really well. Offensively in certainly new york city is going to cause a lot of problems for brian row. So the question is going to be Can throw gum up. Those works i it. I think that's slightly more likely. I think these teams could just as easily have shootout. i have predicted orlando to nothing. All right 'cause i think if orlando dozen they'll win because the wheels somehow near they've made new york city's wheels fall off. It's a good point and certainly we've seen teams do that. Team new york so yeah. That's a distinct possibility. This is definitely one of those ones where it's like. I got a pick side. And so i'm making a choice but if orlando winds i'm not gonna be like like i feel like new york might win and also it's not something unprepared to put a bunch of did you have. Did you have a number a not. Sure if i caught a scoreline there. Yeah i'm saying new york city three orlando one. That's a scenario in my head. Where i think orlando defensively if they fall apart for even ten or fifteen minutes new york could really hit them so i don't think it would necessarily be a blowout but just new york on the counter and exploiting areas in In bind orlando's defense but we'll see your prediction is also something arm like yep. That could totally happen. So but it it. It's definitely gonna be watching. Put it that way. New york new york city is injury free and according to rally deli who also expects to have count out couns back from international duty right. I'm for color for the other. Half of new york columbus being the red bulls will go to columbus for their first anti and they will have access to head coach. Gerhard's tuber who is making the his appearance. Finally after getting a work permit himself in his assistant. Yeah it's weird. He's been in the job but not actually coaching the team. For like almost a month. I think right prompster bradley carol for getting the getting the getting them there in those in those circumstances getting the team to the the the plows being like now you are not even going to be the first assistant. Yeah i mean it's this one for me. Is maybe a little bit a clear cut case not that the red bulls didn't have a strong finish and show that they're still capable of scoring multiple goals. I struggled to remember a single Like let's say top eight team this season that they've handled particularly well Were more than a one game. Sort of fluke thing whereas the only thing that there's been some fluke around with columbus is the fact that they've conceded some goals and lost some games but overall a really complete team depth in midfield depth and defense depth and they're attacking they've this is mario andretti. You know me as a racecar driver. I'm also a meals on wheels volunteer. I've raced against the sport's biggest personalities. But i've never met more vibrant amazing people than the seniors served by meals on wheels. You can make a difference by dropping off a hot meal and say a quick. Hello so america. Let's do lunch volunteer your lunch break at america. Let's do lunch dot org this message brought to you by nielsen wheels. America and the ad council insane to your friend get a different face and posting on their. They're super ugly. That thing they say to them online are cruel and they're not true. So tell your friend. I'll stand up for you. Don't know someone being bullied online. You can be a witness and make a difference by letting the world know. It isn't cool. Am i letting your friend know you care. Learn more at eye witness bullying dot org brought to you by the ad council. Hope you enjoyed your meal. And i just wanna see. He's lucky to have above and like you lucky. Caring for my brother is far from easy. But he's a part of me like my arms and legs. So i'll be his no time for tired. Nothing can disable this love. He needs me. But i'm the lucky one. Even though i need help known if you're caring for a loved one visit aarp dot org slash caregiving for care guides and community support for your strength brought to you by. Aarp and the ad council with today's car clinic minute. The phrase strong but sensitive has described everything from russell crowe to antiperspirant. But don't retire it until you hear the newest automotive application. When i come back i'll tell you when your battery goes dead everything could come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded. Stop bio reilly auto parts and get your battery tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery that fits your car or truck at guaranteed low price o reilly auto parts better parts. Better prices every day parts. You typically think of tires as hardworking and tough but a new generation will have a sensitive side to make that sensors on the side yes continental sevice has introduced smart tire that will have to tiny sensors built into it sidewall. These mini computers measure. How cars affected by motions such as braking and cornering and then relays this info back to the abs and onboard computer result improve safety and performance. Wow strong sensitive and smart. Signed mia i bob like us. You'll love radio. It's been here all along. You know which station is going to tell you the score of the game where to turn when the weather gets round when something big happens good or bad you know where to go and now radio has evolved to move with you with the next radio app in your fm enabled phone just plug in your headphones to start experiencing radio and a whole new way while using way less battery and data than streaming apps. Find your favorite stations. Like the one. You're listening to right now. Download the free nextradio app today. Next radio live and local. Wherever you go free talk live in the light. There was a being started. Are you saying. Michael jackson has come back from spacious. I am michael jackson. See i called you. Talk with god throughout your life. You heard this voice that you recognized as god telling you. Do you believe in magic inviting you to look out the window. Where you then saw michael jackson coming down from a rainbow ray of light coming from the sky. So what happened then. Did he invite you to his play. Land or whatever it is. He has nine months later. The virgin birth happened again. We're happy ironic that He could resurrect invited me. You jackson's baby. I'm michael jackson. Listen the free talk. Live seven nights weeks six to nine. Pm central time on the heartland newsfeed radio network and heartland news for dot com dotted from arrest new in two thousand eight. He really likes to be around people. I've my matt and i'm doing a downward dog. And he's underneath. He's quite the about town gets invited to a lot of parties. you know. he's a pretty big deal with this little face. I hamilton the pug instagram star and shelter pet amazing adoption stories. Start in shelters visit the shelter. Pet project dot org to find a pet near you brought to you by maddie's fund the humane society of the united states and the ad council. You make sure his toys don't have any sharp edges. You taught her what to do with the smoke alarm goes off. You do so much to keep your child safe but are you using the right car seat for your child car. Crashes are a leading killer of children ages one to thirteen. Protect your child's future at every stage of life for information on the right seat for your child visit safercar dot gov slash therightseat a message from the national highway traffic safety administration and the ad council. So you see son. Good manners are important. Should i go through it again. What's yes please exactly always say. Please thank you. You're welcome and excuse me. Sit up straight hold doors open not speak with the mouth. Full keep was off the table. Share your things. Play nice and generally true. We'd like to be treated. Got it and stop picking your nose. Most parenting is hard to do and just two minutes two minutes twice a day making sure they brush. Their teeth is easier and it could help. Save them from a lifetime of tooth pain visit two min two x. dot org to find out more message from the partnership for healthy mouths healthy lives and the ad council and helping people was my thing. After my on news started i was under the sticks and the speaker is julius gaines. Creative writer poet talking one in six seniors faces the threat of hunger and millions more live in isolation. Drop off a hot meal and say a quick. Hello volunteer for meals on wheels by donating your lunch break at america. Let's do lunch dot org. This message brought to you by meals on wheels. America and the ad council. Hi bobby just with another car clinic minute. Yesterday we checked out. J.lo's bentley during our tour of famous four wheelers today. We'll cross the pond to see which machine suits the material girl. When i come back when your battery goes dead everything could come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded. Stop by o. Reilly auto parts and get your battery tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced o'reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery that fits your car or truck at guaranteed low price o. Reilly auto parts better parts better prices every day. Nine bart's madonna's known for her change of style. So when not touring london in her more conservative convertible mini cooper. She drives a pedal to the metal may back by mercedes produced in germany. This ultra luxury. Cars built in four months to customer. Specs becomes standard with a five hundred forty three horsepower. V twelve engine a refrigerator pulsating hand fitted leather seats. A twenty-one speaker audio system and dvd player with twin monitors a panoramic glass roof can be set from opaque to transparent so ms. Richie can enjoy the london skyline. So what's the charge guys. Credit card a whopping four hundred thousand dollars. I'm bobby like us like us. You'll love my mom's a breast cancer survivor. The united breast cancer foundation saved her life. And they need your help so they can continue saving. More women's lives help them by donating. Your car fell provide fast. Free twenty four hour pickup and you receive a charitable tax deduction they cars trucks vans and suv's running or not call twenty four hours a day. Eight hundred seven four five thirty three twenty seven. Your donation could literally save. women's lives. Call today eight hundred seven four five thirty three twenty seven eight hundred seven four five thirty three twenty seven in the small town of elmira new york a boy was born into an all american family the odds of him achieving his dream in the fashion industry one in twenty three million the odds of having a child diagnosed with autism. One in sixty eight. I tommy hilfiger and my family is affected by autism. Learn more at autismspeaks dot org slash signs brought to you by ex and the ad council radio. It's nothing new. It's been here all along with free. Entertainment news sports music and information. It's not just part of life. It's part of who we are. You know which station is going to tell you the score the game. Which one's going to give you a laugh in the morning which one is going to give you something to sing along with. You know where to turn when the weather gets route but when something big happens good or bad you know where to go because radio has been here all along. Radio is part of your community woven into the fabric of what makes home home and now radio has evolved to move with you with the next radio app and your reference phone just plug in your headphones to start experiencing radio and a whole new way while using way less battery and data than streaming apps. Check out the live guide to see and interact with my radio stations easily. Find your favorites like the one. You're listening to right now and as always totally free. Download the nextradio app today. Next radio live and local wherever you go if you're fed up with your credit cards high interest rates and your balances are so out of control but they never seemed to go down. One call consolidated credit can get the relief you need consolidated has helped over six million people with credit card debt. And they're certified credit counselors are ready to help you. They can consolidate your debts into one lower payment. Reduce your interest rates and get you out of debt fast. Without destroying your credit the program works and the consultation is free call consolidated credit now call eight hundred two four three one zero four eight hundred two four three one four. That's eight hundred. Two one four three one o four consolidated credit solutions eight fifty seven zero one west sunrise boulevard fort lauderdale florida three three one three licensed by the new york department of financial services and by the department of financial regulation maryland. D fourteen on data woman to licensed beverage corporation commission license. Decent services for steve beckman of debt may lead to additional finance charges collections actively including legal action body like with today's carthage minute. We all know men for mars and women are from venus at the service desk. Who asked more questions listens better and makes decisions based on available information. When i come back. I'll tell you when your battery goes dead. Everything could come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded. Stop by o. Reilly auto parts and get your battery tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery that fits your car or truck at guaranteed low price o. Reilly auto parts better parts better prices. Every day auto parts move over mars. Venus is better at the service desk. Why many men believe they're born with car chromosomes are fix it jeans. They tend to tell service managers. What's wrong trouble is premature diagnosis. Could be faulty and expensive. But women relate what their cars dude that they don't like women talk about symptoms like strange noises or sensations. Keep up the good work. Ladies advice for mars and venus. Don't stop with descriptions. take your technician for a spin. Let them see and feel what you're talking about. I'm bobby like us like us. You'll love us. Started as medicine to relieve the pain. Take the edge off stress to just get through the day. And i realized i can't stop and i can't stop. I can't stop. I can't stop can't stop we can help go to h dot. Illinois dot gov slash opioids. Find ways to help you or the ones you love break. The cycle of opioid use disorder dp h. Dot dylan annoy. Dot gov slash opioids sponsored by. Dpa it may be hard to believe but people just like you are already saving money. Feed the pig dot org makes it easy. Their simple savings plan. Teaches you how to start saving without going overboard so you don't need to start foraging wild. I was skeptical. But these are actually pretty good. You don't need to sell your soul to the devil. Ch you just need. Feed the pig dot org. Don't get left behind. Get tips and tools at feed the pig dot org brought to you by the american institute of cpa's and the ad council welcomed the cavins barbershop. You gotta see this. Wanna know what you're looking at on that phone will you should. I was learning about the dangers of high blood pressure and that we need to get our check regularly. Blood pressure can increase the risk of heart attack or stroke but this text program can help keep it at a healthy range. Just text barbershop to nine. Seven seven seven nine. Sign up as soon as i'm done with this baby. Panda video barbershop and nine. Seven seven seven nine a message from the american heart association and the ad council when severe weather strikes. It's important your in the no. Even if power goes out and sailor networks are down radio convener lifeline and next radio is the free app that brings fm radio right to your android smartphone. No data or cellular network required and it won't drain your battery. Go to the google. Play store right now. Download the nextradio app to your android device. Stay tuned to this station and please stay safe for a full list of compatible devices visit next radio app dot com more cases more restrictions. I'm pam who so fox news as new coronavirus infections spiral upward. Many states are taking steps to try and curb the rapid spread tomorrow. Rhode island begins a two week paws with the aim of blunting. The upward trend in covid nineteen cases restaurants and stores can stay open but bars and gyms will close gym owner denise chico and says she's invested a lot in safety precautions for her business and things it's unfair for salons and spas to remain open to close fox's tiny tape powers governor gina raimondo. Says the pause is needed since hospitalizations are rising faster than at any point during the pandemic colorado governor. Jared police has no symptoms but he tested positive. All is his office confirmed he was going into quarantine after being exposed to a person who tested positive for the virus but police tested negative. That day. we still don't know you're listening to the heartland newsfeed radio. Markman newsfeed dot com. This is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and instagram more cases more restrictions. I'm pam who so fox news as new coronavirus spiral upward. Many states are taking steps to try and curb the rapid spread tomorrow. Rhode island begins a two week paws of blunting. The upward trend in covid nineteen cases restaurants. Stores can stay open but bars and gyms will close gym owner. Denise checkoint says she's invested a lot in safety precautions for her business and it's unfair for salons and spas to remain open while she has to close fox's tiny powers governor gina raimondo. Says the pause is needed since hospitalizations are rising faster than at any point during the pandemic colorado governor. Jared police has no symptoms but he tested positive. Office confirmed he was going into quarantine after being exposed to a person who tested positive for the virus but police tested negative that day. We still don't know who that person was or if any other staffers were exposed as well reporter. Rachel skydive with fox. Thirty one in denver. The governor's partner has also tested positive in a statement. The governor urges people to be more cautious than ever before for the time being when the senate is in session. Republican lunches won't take place in person majority leader mitch. Mcconnell has temporarily suspended them because of spiking covert cases senate democrats have been meeting over the phone since springtime two suicide bombings in afghanistan have killed at least thirty four people. No group has claimed responsibility. Global calls for a de escalation of tensions following the murder of an iranian nuclear scientist. The regime blames israel. Iranians are saying that the scientists death is not going to slow down their program. They say it's a civilian program for peaceful purposes. Fox's ryan chill code america's listening to fox news. Business was booming on black friday just not in stores. Online sales hit a new record. Estimated nine billion dollars as americans largely avoided malls adobe analytics which track cyber shopping says. This year's number is up. Twenty two percent over the record set last year. Some of the big sellers video games. Lego sets and apple airpods the losers included jewelry apparel and footwear in person retail activity could slow to a trickle in los angeles county. Starting tomorrow a three week stay. At home order takes effect there will be stricter occupancy limits various businesses including essential and non essential retail personal care services libraries fitness centers and others some playgrounds and courtrooms will close beaches trails parks. Schools and day camps will remain open but with safety requirements in place reporter chelsea edwards with fox. Eleven in los angeles residents won't be allowed to gather with anyone not in their household in northern california. Some sports teams in a pickle yesterday. Santa clara county banned all contact sports from holding games and practices for the next three weeks. The measure impacts the san francisco forty niners the san jose sharks and a couple of college teams. The forty niners were supposed to play at home. On december seventh and thirteenth. Santa claus may have more time on his hands this year. it remains to be seen. Just how many kids will take a picture with him. Amid the pandemic for santa and tyson's corner center in virginia this year. There may be no hugs. You have to talk toys through a mask and there's a lot of hand sanitizer mall. Santa usually draws thousands of families. Todd putt with tyson's corner center believes over the twenty twenty christmas season. There will still be many. Who want a photo with chris. Cringle fox's lauren blanchard other families may opt for a contactless personalized video. Campus out fox news stamps dot com brings the post office and ups shipping rights. Your computer go to stamps. Dot com to start a four week trial plus free postage and digital scale with promo code. Fox that stamps dot com. Click on the microphone at the top of the page and type in fox. Lots of different players who can score goals and do score goals. What are your thoughts. Kinda heading into this one. Now my may reading new york red bulls. Am i being too hard on them. I kind of i kind of feel the same way. I think fit. Columbus have been so good to form has been so good. New york has proven that they have the ability to pull off results that you should not count them out. I'm but i think the similar to miami if you. I think that if this had been a a different in the playoffs hadn't been expanded our sorry. Yeah yeah excited you. You would see new york as a team that had been on the bubble and i think that you you look at them here as big as having gotten into a strong position but i just columbus have been so good and i. We don't i don't necessarily think that new york has been on the same level. Both in terms of their attacking. Chaos that i have enjoyed in past seasons but they have seen occasionally chaotically still have great players on defense but major positive is still a bit chaotic. That's such a a sesame like they haven't been good. They've been a little bit chaotic and it's really weird. It's been weird but columbus is expected to have artur back from a strained ankle. Darlington nagbe says players are taking extra precautions. With cases spiking ohio gates which not for diabetes a wonderful personnel. He and he and he has an are safe but like just the situation. Yeah it it bad. I mean so seems like you're calling this one on columbus way. What do you think the the final damage is going to be. I think the if you look at the numbers They have similar shots from our columbus. Have seven more goals. Ten fewer goals conceded doesn't and no they won the only encounter this year to nothing particularly well for anyone. That's not going. They will win this to three nothing about a three. That's hilarious going to be. I don't think it's going to be particularly close. We're so much closer this year than i think we've ever been. I have the exact same scoreline. I mean like yeah. I feel like red bulls have the the goal scoring ability and i think against any other team. They might be able to exploit that museum. Brian white have some flashes this season of what he showed last year. But i i mean it's it's just it's crew all the way isn't it. I feel like this is going to be a kind of a warm up. Match for them in red bulls. Prove me wrong like i think. The rebels will come in. Give a strong account for themselves. But i don't think it's going to be enough and the goals will come before we move. Let me just your notes because we were going to have different because of who you called. You're going to have slightly different i think you're going to have slightly different match up tonight. I am Before we move out of the the Eastern conference the first round matches. The these teams will go to go to counter. I'm i'm trying to look up. i'm trying to look up the The playoff seedings for your for national montreal is your is yours scenario which is slightly different. Mind because i have a new england going to philadelphia. And i think i got a call at affiliate because i think they have Really great and i think that they're going to really look to to have the looked at up end the season really conclusively they're gonna to make an example of whoever they faced in the first round so i think they would be new england and i think that should nashville qualified. They would have. They would have a very very interesting game with toronto That they would lose interesting. Yeah i mean admittedly. I didn't look that far ahead. 'cause i i was like let's just see what happens for strength the games i know there's teams lying in wait. I also think that all the teams better lying in wait to find out who they're going to be playing are better than all of the teams that are playing before them. So i tend to kind of agree. I think nashville could edge toronto I saw an interview that was done. This week with greg vanney. The man looks tired. He says he's tired. The team is tired. I just don't know that they have it in them. This season as good as they've been at points and as much as we know. Toronto has can really dig deep and get results. I think if they're facing nashville nashville is completely ready to for that caliber of play. And if toronto wins. I think it'll be a close one. The i think they're primed they're definitely primed a sort of a shock debut. Yeah in the playoffs a dance. Something like that and nashville. I feel like they've had such a good season and have such a good structure. I think like you. You wanna be a bit more ambitious with your goals. And i'm sure they're happy. They're in the playoffs. But i think winning that first scheme should be absolutely the objective and and you know this is going down the territory of sports cliches of like well. I think they're going to try to win. Of course but. I think that they have the ability to do that as well. I think that they will be slightly aggrieved themselves if they had such an amazing season and they don't go on to at least reach a conference final. Here's a question with your narrative of toronto. Being feeling tired by the end of it is how how restful in regenerative will have their their period returning home to train in toronto before them and will just the act of having to go back to hartford sap that energy. It's a great question. I don't know how restful anything is right now especially traveling even if you do get to go home and see your family. We know cases in toronto are spiking and ontario vivid disaster zone as well so like my short answer to that is i. Don't i don't think it's gonna help. Necessarily i don't think any team is really getting a lot of training time in together so i don't think it will necessarily beat the difference maker in the end greg. Vanney knows how to prepare his team and they have shown a lot of grit this year to grind things out even when they haven't gone their way but they look tired team and they're a team that's been more prone to errors because of that. I think i think what is interesting in. The eastern conference is that Both the one in the two seeds are going to meet. I think good teams that have had to pull out a result already once in this In this playoff year whereas sporting kansas city is gonna play san jose earthquakes. And it's going to happen. San jose conceded one more than twice the goals of sporting. Kansas city fifty-one twenty-five and is that bad. Or while scoring only three hundred. Thirty eight to fifteen inch about thirty more shots San jose is going to have the better Team sheet potential early. The better lock on the team. Sheet apparently catchy lopez with or all expected back from international duty. Could he erez zucchinis. Uc are out with injuries in alabama does day for or against city so they definitely have the sightly challenging and of it and they also have an odd. These teams have not met all year. So this is going to be. That's true quite a quite a place with to meet. I have the quakes have got wild results. Not this wild Sporting kansas city. Three one wakowski scores the logo for san jose. And here. i you were a believer We all know it's going to be hurtado scoring the winning goal I yeah. I totally forgot. They haven't actually played this year. I don't think that works for san jose. Though i think san jose's way to win against a team is play them three times on that third meeting. They're gonna throw everything in the kitchen sink at them. The look the only important straight line that matters to me is. Chris wanted to ask you said he wants to play for another year because he's still gas in the tank so i don't care what happens anymore. Chris wanderlust probably probably going to be back next season. And that makes me very happy It have been there were there. Were so many weird thing. That's not bad things. Chris waddle whence you mentioned out an amended prediction slightly knocked off one goal for s k c s casey. I i think. I think it's going to be a blowout. I mean all evidence. Points that way. San jose yes at times has shown they have the goods. Skc's ma like every team and mls is better defensively you. Let's acknowledge san. Jose got themselves into the playoffs. And that's incredible. Given the year they had in the amount of goals conceded. That's nothing short of a miracle. I think they've used up all the soccer gods good favor just getting here and sporting kansas city have been electric. If san jose wins this it will be the biggest upset of the playoffs. And i'm just going to be like well. Maybe earthquakes win this year. Just take on the cop. Sporting kansas city across the board. A better team have performed better have been consistent. I think peter vermes is going to have their number pretty easily and they're very smart sharp tactically minded team. San jose is not And i think that dot. It's gonna be a bloodbath. The earthquakes in opens understood as we're in kansas city. Maybe but your that's a that's a bold number. But i don't think it's a wrong number. Sporting kansas city missouri san jose conceded more than four by four goals or more six times in the course of seasons so yeah and like if some of the teams that did that to them. You think like they've never gotten results like that and sporting kansas city is punished. Lots of teams for lots of goals. So i i mean who knows. Maybe it will be tighter in the end. Of course it is the playoffs in so san. Jose might be bringing their surprise antics with them. It could very well happen. It may be it. May well be closer. I still think that another very possible. Scenario is sporting kansas city. Wins like five to four. But i don't think that's super likely minnesota colorado the gentleman's agreement game but unlike their their last their last meeting with the gentleman's agreement Kamara is is is traveling via every means of transport available to him. Coming from sierra leone. So he's he's really has his work cut out for him to get home. Jerry's gotta of the Of the minneapolis star tribune reported that he had to take a motorboat to his charter plane. To get there on time But he is. He's on his way Michael blocks villas back from injury. The the other three internationals that kamara near a finished his His his playing duties. And i think he's on his way back. But i understand it. Robin load and john gregory's played today as we speak so that's gonna be challenging for them in terms of Taking a back in time diego rubio a had a kobe. Scare didn't get it but as a result came back early from chile camp. So he's been quarantining in he'll be okay so it all. I think that a lot of it will depend for minnesota on how many of those players they can get back. Minnesota had four more goals and two fewer conceited and take way more shots than than colorado. Yeah oh yeah this is. This is where my gut is telling me. One thing and i think literally anything could happen. I think minnesota has. I know more and more people are kinda getting wise to the fact that they just keep winning games and are a much much improved team. This is so hard because colorado has been so unpredictable. But i'm gonna say minnesota to one. I think that's a. I think that's a good prediction. I also have minnesota to one. I have it on penalties. That's my that's my little a moderate my little fancy spin on it. Because i i agree. I think it could be really close. I think that these are two teams that have had a lot of momentum. One win one draw the season. Yeah it's a hard one to. Because normally i just default to cheering for the underdog. And you know everybody. It's no secret that we like the rapids around here. But i also just feel like minnesota's been so so underrated for the last two seasons despite getting almost everything right in building a really impressive squad With with lots of different gears and looks to them. So probably. I feel like i'm gonna be cheering a little bit for colorado to somehow get this one but i eat. I still think it's gonna be minnesota nina after. Take it on. Honor that the That they're not gonna reseed depending on what happens in the other rounds. 'cause i don't see anybody. I don't see any suggestion that they are going to receive between rounds so the winner here would go to sporting kansas city and this that would be an interesting matchup for minnesota. But i do kinda feel that this is their you know in maybe not as strongly as philadelphia replaced but like this is terry year to prove that they are you know they want to be in the conversation as it were. Yep totally agree Another i think potentially close one Is portland Fc dallas limb excited. Tell me more and fasten your new it. You think about this game now i. It was a little harder for me to find player information on this one. Indy polo for portland is on a charter plane. Somebody took a screenshot of his instagram story. So i just checked mars instagram. See where he was. Seems like he's gonna make it back to the continental states in time. A a wonderful gift for fc dallas in this international break is that players that had dimissed some of some of the last couple of games. Fafa bacau franko hara and brian. Kosta are all back in training. So that's gonna they're gonna love that no meetings again between those two teams this year. Yep portland lead goals for forty six to twenty eight and have better goals against thirty five twenty four. I believe. I lead goals for and against what i meant when i wrote that. No doubt whether or not against the terms of they had mortals for. I think that must be it. I think i think dallas at just had like a tight number of goals for and against but nothing particularly in one direction or the other. So i think portland concede slightly more will be fresh but still portland. It's it depends on how fresh because we definitely saw we definitely saw the timbers. Get tired and give up some weird results towards the end of the season. That's that's an and important question. I think is is. It's not is portland. Good enough to win. It's portland good enough for a full ninety minutes against opponent to win or not. But i feel like that's a question. A lot of timbers fans are going to be asking themselves as well driven number to provide that. I'm this really really tough. I think it's going to be three to dallas food spicy. I have a two one portland with a ninety minute winner. I like it. Could i mean that's a distinct possibility. We've seen that before to one. You said right yes. I'm writing this down so we can revisit these all that's good. I wonder whether or not some of these predictions are just like Sort of like my brain doing like an a. I neural thing like what are. Mls game results. You remember like like. Are they predictions or are they just things that happened in the past. I feel like that's not the the worst approach this season. I mean season. We're literally anything could happen and has happened many times over. I mean we are just taking a wild shot in the dark here and i will be ecstatic if we get even one of these the final game in the first ramp silapa-archya la at seattle behalf as various of course In normal times someone was ordinary circumstances to have a lot of people salivating. This also looks like the game that is going to be affected by covid the most You know how i would. I wonder given the fact that this this cove and proud of what protocol has only been reported and not announced whether or not there may be some Changes between now and the time that it comes out because if you can think of i would be a bold. It will be a bold planner who Who signed the ink on a protocol that would have l. Afc disqualified from the first round of the playoffs Given given what they to do in analyze in to do it's also true that if there was ever any problem that they would try to reschedule and yet in the question terms of what tried to reschedule beans and how much time there is to do that is is of course. Different antsy atl. I think that games on wednesday. Yes on tuesday or wednesday so there's time In the other thing that would prevent a big team. Outbreak is at the players who have tested. I think tested i international break right so That should be nicer. That should be like. Obviously there could be concerns to chew issued and the have depth as well. But it's a challenging. It's not where you want to be When you're when you're facing the higher seed in seattle or you're going to seattle play seattle A team i think that has looked pretty unformed. They've had some weird slip ups. But i think the offense is working well The defense is exploitable -able but it's pretty good in the goalkeeper is great like this is l. A.'s can have to be very good to be able to To avenge their playoff defeat from last year. Yeah absolutely got a number to put on them notes. I got four three on penalties. Interesting reclosed if. I've seen anything from the that. These these western conference clashes is that there's all his one that's just like let's just score goals until we're done. Well let me generally. That's the idea. But what do you got. Its i agree. I totally agree with everything that you've said. Obviously seattle has been the stronger team. More often i think l. afc Diego rossi tested positive for co fed. So it it's a question mark as to whether or not he'll be available with marc anthony k but also with carlos villain back. There's a lot of question marks but what we've seen this season with l. Afc is that they have really struggled defensively and and that has also hurt them going forward because they're not able to just command the pitch like they in previous seasons. So i'm going to say four to for seattle and not going to peak as i think l. afc like you said seattle's exportable l. Afc will get some chances. If carlos villas on the pitch he'll score I think seattle can still do some real real damage here. And just you know the image of jordan morris running at l. afc's back line right now is is something that sticks out in my head where you will get at least a goal in at least in assist i think against this already like kind of weakened l. Afc side that i think will be. It'll be a good match and they'll put up a good fight but for me l. Afc's just missing too many key pieces and this is really unfortunate. Because it's one of those games like a match up where you want everyone available and it should mean more but i think seattle win and i i think in a different year it could go a different way but i feel like that's the way it's gonna go this season. I would agree. And i think that it is going to be. I think one of the ones that is focused on I think it made it almost be more focused on if it happened earlier. But it's i feel like it's going to feel like a little bit of an afterthought a little bit right. Yeah you have written down on the notes that you gave me so stupid. Low hake with article questions. Yeah i mean. We saw a bunch of teams. Were giving out awards last week. And mls is announcing their awards leading up to the playoffs. Congratulations andre black for andre bleak for goalkeeper of the year Did anybody else win a walker. Zimmerman is great right. I think all i saw somebody win. Humanitarian player was. Yeah i can't remember either any who's larry's I mean not. Even sure if they're awarding tournament mvp or not but if they are Who do you think is likely to emerge at the end of everything Regardless of who the final teams are in the final. What are your thoughts. I'm here Announced the emily's cup twenty twenty tournament. Mvp it is. Open the envelope here. Covert all sterile decay. That'll be the those are real really strong guesses. Yeah that's a great guest I feel like. I mean this is the last. We're gonna see brenden aaronson. I think philadelphia as we've discussed plenty. I feel like this is. It's theirs to lose really And brenden aaronson has really improved his game. This season he's going to of course be off to salzburg following this season. So i'm i'm going to say i'm i'm expecting him to have a really great tournament and make a lot of impact. Plays so that my pick Other questions for me i do. I mean i think in some ways you could probably say all the teams dark horse teams this year because who thought we'd be here but is there a team that stands out to you as a more darkhorse then not just an underdog but a team. That's gonna come in and and really upset things. Do you think that there is that team this season. My predictions are going to contradict. Answer here but i think our conversation has made me more certain that it's national could be that if daschle win against toronto. All bets are off. Yeah you know that. It's necessarily fair to minnesota to call them at dark horse. Because they've been really good. But i i feel like probably not a lot of people are expecting them to go super far and i think that they're going to pose a lot of challenges to every team they play. So i'm gonna say minnesota a really good. I think that this is absolutely a year like that. Where it's like other than the fact other than me say darabi kids like in a way that way you you could call orlando. Dr course you can pull the western conference champions for kids city at. Yeah exactly just talk about like. They don't get talked about the types of that way because they're more quietly good while orlando now not necessarily orlando but or i don't want a trophy this year in one. It's nothing against minnesota. And i think adrian eath is probably very happy to have the attention turn to other teams and and be flying under the radar. I think that's not a lot of the reason. Why but i certainly think it's a good ten percent of the reason why minnesota has been so good is because teams kind of underrate them and don't line up while against them and minnesota with very few exceptions has been really really strong as unit on the pitch. So what do. I think they're going to win a cup. Probably not. But i think they're going to go further than many people expect now. Just sorry go ahead since. I wanna ask a question okay in in. I know that this is going to be america's you didn't get a you get a chance to prepare. I got a chance to perf your questions. So i apologize okay. What team is going to be the most disappointed by whatever result. They get possible. Scenario is a team is disappointed that they win or lose the final. Yeah you know what that. It's a really hard question. Might i mean eliot seems like the easy answer so not gonna go there and stormed out of an interview again. I mean we've very well may see that there's a high probability that happening even if they do win. I think it's probably gotta be colorado. They've been through so much to get here and showed so much fight and been a lot better. Look just as as a team all over the place. They've been even with a lot of changes. This season i mean chi- kamara was something of a goalscoring revelation and they lost him and they started doing better so like i. I feel like they've got a really really hard job in front of them against minnesota. But i think they're going to be pretty disappointed with themselves. If they're not able to get a result there and yeah colorado final answer. What about you thinking about this team. Losing in the final Were brought to my lips and it would be a word of sadness and it would be philadelphia. Yeah there's no. There's no reason that they should. They should feel bad about a season where they won the supporters shield but it is remarkably challenging to win both trophies and i'm sure that they would be crushed if they went to go play seattle lost. Yep and you know a very possible. Matchup is them versus the crew. And if there's a team that can unseat them you gotta think columbus as good a shot as anyone so yeah i think. That's that's a great answer. But i should also say whatever running guys get his great. It's been a tremendous season first trophy. Don't feel too bad about it. And i hope i i hope it's i guess you jakes a team. By saying they'll lose because it's just a prediction jigsaw team. By saying i'll win. So maybe this'll be a reverse jinx. Maybe you maybe philadelphia that are getting mad two mad at me enough to be able to save even when things first certain like a team is going to win. It's mls so it's highly possible. They won't my last question to you is if if it does come down to toronto and seattle who in the final who will score the winning penalty because we obviously know it's gonna be nil male or one and then go to peking who scored the toronto. I have jordan morris. Yeah you got. If you also said more as i. I have a second. I haven't second one. Is it roman torres ritchie laura. Oh right yeah yeah. Yeah okay okay. Those are good predictions. That would be an amazing canadian. Soccer story ritchie lereah one analyst cup through a pk. I'd be all about that. I'm okay with that that result. But it's got to be laura that scores that that would be very good I'm trying to think if we had any other molesters the jersey the jersey sales list came out the top the top. Twenty five highest. Selling jerseys will shock you. How did i do that you are. I think that it said here. You're twenty six. You're not on the list now for gains better than last year. number one carlos failure number two teacher reto laboratory just martinez. Who his in. You know. an absence in this playoffs. We got we got say his name at least once in the in the breed even though atlanta we're not mere in he's been he's been injured. He has missed number four jordan. Morris number. five role. Fo- pizarro with eglin ninety three boys maturity and brennan arison making up the remainder of the top. Ten mean that tracks. If i could say mornings at you in a roughly discernible order. Valeri pidonia char Diego chara pa- lido madero. Edison florez from defeat. Giguere osi johnny russell. Chris waddle ascii. Jonathan sanchez ship on walker. Zimmerman lucas. on who. I think when newcomer of the year that was another one that was that was handed out christine. Wall dan in the the player who sold slightly more jerseys than you think. You're bunko easing. I guess joseph martinez still managed to score a goal this year. Despite only playing one game. I believe so true that does put him on par with katrina in terms of output. All might just a tornado though playing. I never thought that you had to throw in something pissy at the end ellie galaxy. Don't get to talk again for a long while love. Well don't worry house got insulted to To talk about if you if you want to you gotta press. Go not in la. Not sure by the way speaking of of yourself They are coming back at the beginning next season in march with a multiple location challenge cup. They have innovative. They have what they're presley off and an innovative twenty twenty one framework which is Which is a cure competition framer. Which is keyword speak for. We don't know we have no idea what marsh is going to look like at up to. And including cancelling the entire thing as a possible innovative framework. Just not doing the thing. The the the challenge couple return in mid april with quote unquote will take place in multiple bubble environments team markets or some combination of the two. Sure all right cool cool cool. Cool cool cool. We've learned so many valuable lessons. Well lots of soccer to happen. Coming up I will be tweeting. The games that i see live probably over on the old twitter at that so emma last Probably will stuff on instagram as well. That's also at that so mls and of course you can find this podcast. That so emily dot com. We keep it in for you and you can find it wherever find podcasts. Found please rate review and subscribe. Thank you very much for your support. This season We genuinely really appreciate it because we know there's lots of things you could be doing with your time and we appreciate the heck out of you come in with us. Where can right. Thanks for coming to talk with us. Guys yeah and where can we find you online. You apply online tweeting about desert bus for hope. If you hear this we have still have a chance to the new houston. Dynamo campaigns assigned defenders desert. Yes i hope. Oh my god heading for a hitting from From dallas to houston that's not true But but luckily pat will end on friday. Hopefully unless unless k griffey junior instead of putting money into the sounders he's joined the ownership of their much. He puts money into desert bus for hope to keep it running. It will end in time for the mls ploughs which i'm excited about. Consider going to desert dot org to find out what that is in donate money to charity but you can find me on twitter at debates. Www dot team hyphen dot com beautiful. And we're here somehow. Miraculously were here. It's amazing it's great. It's been strange. It's really strange Please as cases continue to rise literally everywhere Do what you can just do. The responsible thing follow local public health guidelines. Where mask wash your hands. Don't spend time over people's houses so that we can even dream of going back to normal vaccines not here yet. Play it safe others that we would like all of you to be here next year talking soccer with us. That's your version. Be staying home and watching. Your hands is as cases. Bike is your version of cod kamara on a jet boat. Exactly making his way to the wanna get their stay home. Wear a mask do the right thing and don't get said. Welcome to cavins barber shop. You all got to see this even want know what you're looking at on that phone will shoot. I was learning about the dangers of high blood pressure and that we need to get our check regularly. Blood pressure can increase the risk of heart attack or stroke but this text program can help keep it at a healthy range. Just text barbershop to nine. Seven seven seven nine. Sign up with this baby. Panda video checks barbershop to nine. Seven seven seven nine a message from the american heart association and the ad council. Hi i'm bobby lioness with today's karnik minute when it's raining do you hold your breath as you car. Struggles to start or run rough when it does. There's a simple way to locate. Ignition parts that act up with the weather and when i come back i'll tell you all about it. When your battery goes dead everything could come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded. Stop by o. Reilly auto parts and get your battery tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced o'reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery that fits your car or truck at guaranteed low price o. Eilly auto parts better parts better prices. Every day auto parts in weather in your car runs rough until it warms up the problem might be moisture shorting out warning nisshin wires to troubleshoot shops. Use a twenty five thousand dollar scope but you can use to dollar bottle of windex. that's right windex. Here's how with engine idling in a c on spray. Each spark plug wire with windex. When the windex hits the bad wire the engine will misfire next. Spray the distributor cap coil. Wire coil with each part. Listen and look for the engine to stumble shape when it does you found the. I'm bobby likeness radio. It's nothing new. It's been here all along with free. Entertainment news sports music and information. It's not just part of life. It's part of who we are. You know which station is going to tell you the score of the game which one has going to give you a laugh in the morning which one will give you something to sing along with. You know where to turn when the weather gets robbed and something big happens good or bad you know where to go because radio has been here all along. Radio is part of your community woven into the fabric of what makes home home and now radio has evolved to move with you with the next radio app in your fm enabled phone just plug in your headphones to start experiencing radio in a whole new way while using way less battery and data than streaming apps. Check out the live guy to see and interact with live radio stations easily. Find your favorites like the one. You're listening to right now and as always it's totally free. Download the nextradio app today. Nextradio live and local wherever you go. Thousands of people contact invent help monthly about their invention or new product. Do you think companies would be interested in your idea. Do you want to try to get a patent call invent help now. Best of all the call and information are free. Inventhelp keeps your idea confidential explaining every step of the invention process we create professional materials and submit them to companies who are looking for new ideas in your category. We have more than nine thousand companies who've agreed to review new ideas in confidence if a company shows interest in manufacturing your invention we can negotiate on your behalf. We have helped over. Ten thousand clients received patents. We offer three d. modeling and animation prototyping services and we use state of the art technology to present client ideas to additional companies. People just like you. Who made the call to invent help call for free information. One eight hundred three five three seven zero one seven. That's one eight hundred three five three seven zero seven again. One eight hundred three five three seven zero one seven. A fee based company summers health and wellness expert. With your local health update. I get so many emails and calls about cd the incredible oil from the hemp plant. That's being used to provide relief to millions for joint discomfort inflammation and nagging injuries. It's the most talked about alternative breakthrough in years. The cbd product i always recommend comes from cbd labs the gold standard of cbd cbd labs oil goes to work fast to relieve your discomfort and deliver the results. One thought nearly impossible without a prescription. This powerful oil is not marijuana and contains no. thc the ingredient gets you high. Oh yes cbd lads. Oil has also been used to help thousands. Get a great night's sleep. Don't be fooled by all the imitators. Call now and find out how to get a free bottle while supplies last to get your free bottle of cd cd oil call. Eight hundred six five zero nine eight one four. That's eight hundred six five zero nine eight one four. Get your free bottle for a limited time. Call now eight hundred six five zero nine eight one. Four eight hundred six five zero ninety eight fourteen dear. John i'm leaving uncontrolled. High blood pressure is serious. And i can quit whenever i want. Why can we get back to when you checked on me. I don't wanna leave. But remember when i quit. You quit sincerely your heart. Listen to your heart and don't let it quit on you. High blood pressure can lead to a stroke heart attack or death get yours to a healthy range today for help keeping yours at a healthy range text pressure to nine seven seven seven nine a message from the american heart association the american stroke association and the ad council. Wwe superstar alberto. Del rio take one behold the angry giant tried again albert. Be the angry giants perfect. Good luck tonight. All that angry giant remain. Another one. dad this is. Wwe superstar alberto. It only takes a moment to make a moment. Take time to be a dad today. Visit fatherhood dot gov brought to you by the us department of health and human services and the ad council. It may be hard to believe but people just like you are already saving money feed the pig dot. Org makes it easy. Their simple savings plan teaches you how to start saving without going overboard. So you don't need to sell all your belongings and live in a commune. These dungarees belong to all. Now you don't need to get a second job as a stunt man you just need. Feed the pig dot org. Don't get left behind. Get tips and tools. Feed the pig dot org brought to you by the american institute of cpa's and the ad council with today's carbonic minute funny things not not jokes. Bill cosby vaudeville. An ally mcbeal but car noises which can point to serious problems are no laughing matter when i come back. I'll give you the country when your battery goes dead. Everything could come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded. Stop by o'reilly auto parts and get your battery tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery that fits your car or truck at guaranteed low price o. Reilly auto parts better parts. Better prices every day automobile parts. Why the chicken walk across the road. Because his car died. After making a funny noise like these click tapping like a ballpoint pin clunk. Heavy metal to metal sound like hammers on steel grind. Abrasive noise like sandpaper grown. Low pitched hum like when you see your credit card. Bill and growl guttural. Sound like an angry dog. If you hear these noises. Don't laugh him off. Tell them to your technician or the joke may be on you. I'm bobby like us like us. You radio it's been here all along. You know which station is going to tell you the score of the game where to turn when the weather gets round when something big happens good or bad you know where to go and now radio has evolved to move with you with the next radio app and your fm enabled phone just plug in your headphones to start experiencing radio and a whole new way while using way less battery and data than streaming apps. Find your favorite stations like the one. You're listening to right now. Download the free nextradio app today. Next radio live and local. Wherever you go free talk live. There was a being he started. Are you saying. Michael accident has come back from spaceships. I am michael jackson. See i called you. Talk with god throughout your life. You heard this voice that you recognized as god telling you. Do you believe in magic inviting you to look out the window. Where you then saw michael jackson coming down from a rainbow ray of light coming from the sky. So what happened then. Did he invite you to his play. Land or whatever it is. He has nine months later. The virgin birth happen again. We're happy he could resurrect invited. Me found jackson's baby. Our michael jackson listen the free talk live seven nights week. Six to nine. Pm central time on the heartland newsfeed radio network and heartland news dot com. I love what have you got planned for today. This way adventure can be found anywhere but the best place to start is in the forest the most powerful magic there is at outside discovering credible animals slough and beautiful plants that come together to create an unforgettable adventure so grab your loved ones and explore a world of possibilities visit discovertheforest dot org to find the closest forest or park to you brought to you by the ad council and the us forest service. My teacher said that we should have a plan. In case of an emergency. Do we have one. First thing i'm gonna do is grab a flashlight with dead batteries. I'm going to start randomly throwing clothes in the bag. You two will be hiding in the closet. And dad won't be able to find you. And that's when we both start crying uncontrollably. Can you pass the cutlets. Winging it is not an emergency plan make sure your kids know what to do during an emergency who to call where to meet what to pack. Search ready kids at nyc dot gov or call three one one brought to you by the new york city office of emergency management and the ad council. Hi i'm bobby with today's car clinic minute. It can't transform sows ear into a silk purse but designers can convert mules into automotive. The question is can the mules keep pace with technology. The answer when i come back when your battery goes dead everything could come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded stopped by o'reilly auto parts and get your tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced or reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery that fits your car or truck. A guaranteed low price o'reilly auto parts better parts better prices. Every day auto parts automotive rules are life. Sized physical prototypes that manufacturers have traditionally configured built and tweaked before production models are released but wait the whip of technology may put. The mule was out to pasture before they reached the starting gate. Since a single mule prototype can cost up to a half a million dollars and as many as sixty mules can be produced for a single model. It makes more than horse sense that today's digital engineers are now. Harnessing the power of supercomputers to simulate safety driveability. Anesthetics the triple crown of automotive design. I'm bobby like us like us. You'll love my mom's a breast cancer survivor. The united breast cancer foundation saved her life. And they need your help so they can continue saving more women's lives. Help them by donating your car. They'll provide fast free twenty four hour pickup and you receive a charitable tax deduction they cars trucks vans and suv's running or not paul twenty four hours a day. Eight hundred seven four five thirty three twenty seven. Your donation could literally save. women's lives. Call today eight hundred seven four five thirty three twenty seven eight hundred seven four five thirty three twenty seven. I spend a lot of time in the backyard. And i'm the center of attention at summer. Barbecues in ninety six. I made some of the tastiest. Moore's and own nine. It was me your backyard firepit. That accidentally started a wildfire when a summer breeze carried one of my embers into some dry brush spark a change not a wildfire visit smokeybear dot com. Brought to you by the us more service your state forester and the ad council only you can prevent wildfires enjoyed your meal and i just want to say he's lucky to have like you lucky. Caring for my brother is far from easy. But he's a part of me like my arms and legs. So i'll be his no time for tired. Nothing can disable this love. He needs me. But i'm the lucky one. Even though i need help known if you're caring for a loved one visit aarp dot org slash caregiving for care guides and community support for your strength brought to you by. Aarp and the ad council. What if i told you that a tornado was going to happen tomorrow. Right where you live. That it would touchdown at exactly three seventeen pm. And i told you the exact path it would take. You would of course prepare. You would talk with your loved ones and you'd make a plan today it's true i can't tell you a tornado strike tomorrow. But shouldn't you have a plan. Anyway go to ready dot gov slash communicate in. Make your emergency plan today. Don't wait communicate brought to you by fema and the ad council. This is mario andretti. You know me as a racecar driver. But i'm also a meals on wheels volunteer. I've raced against the sport's biggest personalities. But i've never met more vibrant amazing people than the seniors served by meals on wheels. You can make a difference by dropping off a hot meal and say a quick. Hello so america. Let's do lunch volunteer your lunch break at america. Let's do lunch dot org this message brought to you by meals on wheels america and the ad radio snuffing new. It's been here all along with free. Entertainment news sports music and information. It's not just part of life. It's part of who we are. You know which station is going to tell you the score of the game. Which one's going to give you a laugh in the morning which one is going to give you something to sing along with. You know where to turn when the weather gets up when something big happens good or bad you know where to go because radio has been here all along radio as part of your community woven into the fabric of what makes home home and now radio has evolved to move with you with the next radio app in your phone. Just plug in your headphones to start experiencing radio and a whole new way while using way less battery and data than streaming apps. Check out the live guide to see and interact with my radio stations easily. Find your favorites like the one. You're listening to right now and as always it's totally free. Download the nextradio app today. Next radio live and local wherever you go if you're fed up with your credit cards high interest rates and your balances are so out of control that they never seemed to go down. One call consolidated credit can get the relief you need consolidated credit has helped over six million people with credit card debt. And they're certified credit counselors are ready to help you. They can consolidate your debts into one. Lower payment reduce your interest rate. You're listening to heartland newsfeed. Radio network live twenty four seven heartland newsfeed dot com. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and instagram's another governor test positive for the coronavirus. I'm pam who so fox news colorado's jared polis the governor and the first gentlemen are in isolation at their home. Both are ase symptomatic and are feeling well but we know. The police was at the governor's mansion for a joint press conference now. That was on tuesday and as far as we know that was his last public appearance. Reporter rachel skydive with fox thirty one in denver in a statement. Police said no one is immune from this virus. One in forty-one colorado residents are believed to be contagious to curb the spread. More states will oppress pause tough restrictions. Take effect tomorrow in los angeles county california and rhode island where bars gyms will close for two weeks governor gina raimondo said. She based her decision to close gyms on. Cdc gardens and at the paul's is needed because hospitalizations are going faster than at any point in the pandemic faulk says tiny j powers in northern england. Bird flu has been found at a turkey. Farm officials say the risk policy. Health is very low. The holiday shopping season is off to a record start. Online sales on black friday reached about nine billion dollars. According to adobe analytics. That's twenty two percent higher than the previous record set last year. Adobe saying monday could be the largest online sales day in. us history hot items so far. This year are hot wheels. Cars like sets apple airpods and video. Games fox's ashley stroh meyer in person. Shopping was down about fifty two percent a british actor who once said he was given the choice of playing to or darth vader in the original star. Wars trilogy has died. David prowse villain's role was eighty five according to his management company prowse had other iconic roles including frankenstein's monster america's listening to fox news more announcements are expected this week as president elect. Joe biden puts together a cabinet. Fox's kevin corke tells us it's been hard to make everyone happy. There's still some concern among some of his strongest supporters. That his team at least has it's currently constructed. He's sorely lacking. In african american representation fact south carolina congressman james. Clyburn is urging his friend to consider more african americans for senior posts. He is supporting marcia. Fudge of ohio. The congressional black caucus former chair to be the new agriculture secretary. He's also advocating performer. Jacksonville mayor alvin brown to lead the department of housing and urban development in the coming days biden is expected to nominate former fed chair. Janet yellen his treasury secretary. No more masks no more lockdowns. That was the rallying cry during a demonstration in london yesterday. Where more than one hundred fifty. People were arrested under england's current lockdown mass gatherings are banned. Police say some of the protesters threw smoke bombs and bottles a grim warning from researchers at the university of arizona about the state's kovac nineteen surge. They say if steps like a three week stay at home or her or statewide mask. Mandate aren't taking than the hospital. Crisis could become a disaster. They liken it to a major forest fire without evacuation orders in neighbouring utah. Hospitals are also stressed hospitals and intensive care. Units are on the verge of hitting capacity. And so we're doing everything we can to try to limit those numbers as you know we could be on the edge of a breaking point. State lawmaker steve. Ilson a disturbing case of animal cruelty in maine published reports say ryan carlton is accused of killing his father's cat with a frying pan on thanksgiving the day before he was released on bail for allegedly stealing his mother's car campus. How fox news. Today's news got your head spinning. Try head space head. Space offers a daily dose of mindfulness with guided meditations in an easy to use app. Go to head space dot com slash fox for free one-month trial. This is the best deal offered right. Now that's head space dot com slash fox. Welcome into tomorrow with dave grave. Line the interactive radio network program with the latest in high tech products and services and the experts. Who bring them to you. This is into tomorrow. Here's dave grave line for the weekend of friday november twenty seventh twenty twenty our twenty fifth year on the air. A very happy thanksgiving weekend to thank you for tuning into tomorrow. I am dave grave line coming to you from the decks com g six studios make knowledge. You're superpower for managing type. One diabetes visit dax m dot com. And who are you. And what are you thankful for. I'm chris grave line. And i'm just thankful to be above ground up well. There is a lot to that since we both survived covid at least so far anyway still dealing with the aftermath of same but Fortunately you were never in the hospital. So we're thankful for that thankful that after about a month i got out of the hospital managed to escape lots to be thankful for. Yeah we're thankful that we only had a flood not a fire in our studios. Oh my gosh bite your tongue. Our control room and tv studios flooded flooded for like three inches of water. People say that's nothing well. It's a lot when you've got a lot of stuff on the floor. Like carpet and drywall. And it's acts like a sponge and it just sucked up the rain. Water and battery backup units that when you pick them up off the floor. Water pours out of them. Yeah combination. you better save those videos. He's chris managed to take some video of lifting a couple of those ups units and just water pouring out of it. You gotta figure. Well that's not good. Water conducts electricity. I don't think we'll plug that back in. But that's true thankful that it was only a flood and what we lost a lot of stuff and furniture and carpet and drywall and whatnot. Were still here. And it's being repaired. And we're still on the air functioning. Yes and because we're we're giving thanks and allowing our staff to give thanks this weekend and be with their families. We're bringing a sort of a a best of some of our highlights from our broadcasts that three months ago you because you might have missed at least a half a dozen of those interviews if you tune in of course at various times so this week on this thanksgiving weekend while we give thanks especially thanking you for tuning into tomorrow of our staff is off as well. So that's why it's the best of and allow us to show our thanks to you by sending you prizes when you participate on the show you can call us anytime. Eight hundred eight nine nine into. That's eight hundred eight nine nine four six eight six. Our next guest is with a company that's creating a new. A are toy market augmented reality toy market very cool stuff that reveals fantastic worlds by connecting toys and games and one would think well. Haven't we done that already. All the well not necessarily but the ceo of augmented robotics is doing just that. Tony nigga. welcome into tomorrow. How are you sir. thanks for joining us. Hey dave thank you so much for having me. I'm doing very well how you doing. I'm doing much better. Thanks. we're we're doing. Well the cool thing is that you were of course at ifa in berlin where we could not attend for the first time and in eighteen years. Something about the e eu. Not letting us americans in that. In the fact that christian i recovering from the rona. So the fact is that you were there. And we're able to talk about not only ignited. Robotics guys are doing but show people how you are connecting toys and games. I tell us a little bit about Augmented robotics the company itself. And then. let's get into what you're doing. Sure thank you. Thank you well at politics. S you already mentioned before our aim is to put ties to the next level. We want to connect toys with cool stuff that kids know from the computer games and the best of is they don't have to stay inside actually to enjoy the games that they're used to. They can go outside actually in the nature With our favorite toy and experience those fantastic worlds in augmented reality around their favorite toy engand. And that's even better because now you're encouraging the kids to get outside and breathe some nice air and enjoy some physical activity perhaps even though they're using augmented reality it it allows them. It sounds to me to kind of immerse themselves in the game where they couldn't before. Yeah exactly exactly. This is what we're trying to to encourage the kids to take the creativity you know. They're daydreams in the end you know and we have the technology to put. These daydreams into reality everywhere wherever they are. They can enjoy those amazing games. We sta favorite ties. And maybe just explain a little bit about our company augmented robotics. We're actually spin off of the technical university of carlin. Yes so it's really a techie. Come yeah i remember. We passed the technical university every year every day to and from the hotel and the fairgrounds. So we're very familiar with one day. We'll have to go inside and actually see what's there but apparently folks like you are there. Yeah yeah it's it's a christian university seriously. i can only commanded. Like most of my co-founder actually all of my employers on studied maths and space engineering. So what we did. There was building rockets. Satellites and mask rovers. So it's a great place to be so you're telling me tony that rocket scientists actually started this company. How how did rocket scientists get into toys and games or was it a pretty logical step to say. Hey look at the stuff we're doing it's kind. It can be considered toys and games but on a much higher level. Let's actually do it. Yeah exactly very good question actually Well as we grew up in an environment of aerospace engineering we also worked restaurants a lot and we had privately hobby projects actually on the side. my founders f guinea and patrick and me and what are Side hobby project was to create drones with a our content so we wanted to have like virtual drowns like spaceships next to us and fight each other in the air. Can this to be a bit too difficult in the beginning so we started little taika and we figured out. It was already a lot of fun. Actually doing that. Little prototype and then we went to the toy industry and said i'll look at our little prototypes and saying you would be interested in actually and they got huge is yeah definitely. We want to integrate technology into our products. And this was basically the start awful as so. Then how is it that you integrate them and could you give us some samples or ideas. How how what the kids might already be familiar with. And you're taking it to that next level. Sure sure sure so. Imagine you're having a radio controlled toy that you're that you're used to from your child like a car or something you know usually what you could do is just like drive forward backward left right or whatever and that's it without technology you can maneuver cars your smartphone and you see virtual objects in real environment like coins to collect treasures or like obstacle sense on and you can even play it with our kids so you can shoot virtual tattle set each other and so on so it gets let it s a layer of more content around the already existing ties varies can do you like. I can show you a video please. That would be awesome because we would like to get a better idea of how it all works here. Okay let's let's have a look at this video. Mario little maya and what you're doing. Is you put our little device. A tub enables you control it with your smartphone and then s you can see now you can collect these coins you okay so so folks that are not yet being able to watch the video at into tomorrow dot com listening on the radio. You're watching on your phone and able to see mario in his cart running around in this case a sidewalk and on your phone. You're seeing coins or various treasures that you would pick up in a game that you're able to do at that point which i think is very cool. I mean that that's certainly sets you aside from just somebody playing the game and yeah sure picking up the coins and whatnot but you actually have in this case of physical toy. That's running around on the sidewalk or in the house or wherever you might be. That's i think that's very neat yet. It's cool and two kids love it. We tried it with with many kids and we always surprised on how they react with it and what they're doing with it because the kids interact with our products in different way than we could imagine. And it's It's a lot of fun to watch the kids play with sure they can get real creative. I'm assuming there are two. They can tony tell you what. Let's go ahead and play with mario and his cart for a couple of minutes. Pay a couple of bills during a commercial break and come right back. We're talking with the ceo of augmented. Robotics tony niche. Thousands of people contact invent help monthly about their invention or new product. Do you think companies would be interested in your idea. Do you want to try to get a patent call. Inventhelp now best of all the call and information are free invent help. Keep your idea confidential explaining every step of the invention process we create professional materials and submit them to companies who are looking for new ideas in your category. We have more than nine thousand companies who've agreed to review new ideas in confidence if a company shows interest in manufacturing your invention we can negotiate on your behalf. We have helped over. Ten thousand clients receive patents. We offer three d. modeling and animation prototyping services and we use state of the art technology to present client ideas to additional companies. Join people just like you. Who made the call to invent help. You have nothing to lose. Call us for free information at one. Eight hundred four six zero sixteen sixty three. That's one eight hundred four six zero one six six three again. One eight hundred four six zero sixteen sixty three of nature changing the world one life at a time. Sort of the opthamologist for my eye exam. I usually go yearly. Is this what are you doing and i told them about the nature. He's well whatever you're doing. keep it up primary doctor. She couldn't get over how much better i was doing. She said she never seen anything. I guess i hope this is really taking off. Because it's it's been a godsend. I'm telling you. I mean i'm a pharmacist. Petit or haven't had a cold balanced nature as impacted my life in a positive way. Don't wait to see what getting over ten servings of whole fruits and vegetables every day can do for you right now. Balance of nature is offering free and thirty five percent off on any new preferred order. Start your journey to better health today by calling one eight hundred two four six eight seven fifty one one eight hundred two four six eight seven fifty one one eight hundred two four six eight seven fifty one one eight hundred two four six eight seven fifty one. This is an important announcement for anyone who wants health insurance even if you missed the deadline right now you can get health insurance. You and your family need from top insurance providers even if you have pre existing conditions or no insurance at all the plus benefits health insurance toll free number has been extended to help anyone who wants health insurance coverage now or if you need a better plan or a lower price called plus benefits health insurance now at eight hundred. Three two one nine nine three. The call is one hundred percent free and that help is real call. Eight hundred three three two one nine nine three. That's eight hundred three two one nine nine. Three what if people with type one diabetes had the power to manage their condition without finger sticks to always know their glucose levels and where they're heading with just a glance at their smart device to alerts and alarms to help keep them in range all this knowledge powered by a small wearable introducing the decks com g. Six make knowledge your superpower for elliptic compatible smart devices visit decks dot com slash compatibility if your glucose alerts readings from the six do not match symptoms their expectations. Use a blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions. Welcome back tomorrow. I'm dave grave line. We're talking with the ceo of robotics. Tony niche. How is your company admitted robotics different than than say lego nintendo and that sort of thing. Because you know as i when they're introducing physical toys as well but you guys are are a bit different anyway. Yeah yeah sure. Legal and nintendo are great companies. You know they're doing an amazing job and They made products as well. They do a little bit of augmented realty yet and good products you know. Don't get me wrong. They have they have an awesome portfolio. But what we are doing in the end is a step a boss. This will really focusing on. Is the interaction between the wheel. Product anti world. You know our augmented reality is not just a little gimmick around. you know. it's demane game in the end and also legal and intendo only offering their own products of course and we are technology provider. Meaning that we offer these kind of technologies to other companies from the game industry for them to Upgrade their toys to get into the time of digitalization. So i love that idea so folks that are not lego or nintendo related or oriented. Still have an opportunity to get with you for example. An augmented robotics and say we'd like our toys to be able to do this as well. And i'm sure you'll open the door and say come on in. We can make that happen and then be able to be doing. Yeah i love it now. Artificial intelligence and toys. I'm assuming that that's got some of our audience thinking. That sounds a little scary. Ai and toys a mean. At what point have we gone too far or can we or you know what's what's doing with toys. Yes sure and this is a very good point and we just want the deep tech awad. Last last. Actually in germany for donald's was the best artificial intelligence. Well grab thank you. And but we're not doing skynet or anything like evil from terminator good intelligence. Like at official intelligence isn't using personal data or trying to influence you in your personal behavioral and doing what we are doing with these artificial intelligence this detecting the wheel objects that toys in the environment in order to from a technical point of view. Make it possible that these toys interactive digital content. So it's more like a indoor navigation system are artificial intelligence and it has nothing to do with anything evil kind of thing so parents need not be worried at all. You're doing the right thing and again since you talk about So much research and watching kids interact in their excitement. You're obviously going to continue to take care of the kids and not scare them. Either you want them and other companies to be involved to do this on a very positive manner. I think it's safe to say tony that you're assuming that augmented reality is the future of toys. I mean we're gonna see a lot more a are into tomorrow as it relates to toys. Yes definitely definitely well. Just think back to the time when you were a child not known you had a long long long ago. Because i'm thinking about that like maybe even as an adult. You know you try fronting your you know of what could be possible. S keats you mentioned like knights and dragons or cowboys fighting each other and with our technology. We are actually able to do that. You know to let these dreams come reality and as we we're able to do that as technology is at this stage you know you'll have to see from a company. Perspective like every product is competing with every other product. You know anti industry is facing a huge huge huge challenge to compete this digital products and an auditor to stay competitive They have to integrate some kind of digital internet products. And this exactly what we're offering with out taking their main product. They're hot way the main idea. We just added a little bit around and make it interesting for the kids and competitive with digital products. Do you foresee and you may already be doing this. But even maybe from in this case you were showing us a little video of mario and his cart. Do you see maybe from mario's perspective as well so that somebody is looking at At if they were driving the cart going around picking up the coins and things is that part of what you're able to do or we'll be doing do think yes. Actually this was our initial idea. Yes beck and that's what we try to sell to retire industry. And they were a little bit scared of cameras in. There's that privacy issue understandably exactly and depress ours is not that cheap. Neither could offer that and actually business. What nintendo is doing. Now you know. They develop a car like that. It's great you know so. I am hoping with nintendo. Doing this awesome product at a company will jump onto this kind of train and do it as well but we also have other products for our customers came to us. I'm just going to share my screen and ask us our. We have more products activities for example that cannot move and we digitalize these kind of products as well so now you can use your smartphone to just scan your teddy easily and then integrate these teddy in a virtual environment in front of your art mental agility. Very again those listening on the radio. He's now showing us be sure to come by and check out the video at into tomorrow dot com but he's showing teddy bear and how you can simply scan an nfc chip select a game. You wanna play with the teddy bear and then play it. Now there's this virtual city it looks like in front of the teddy bear. And i'm sure there's many options in many different things to do but that's something else that augmented robotics is already doing and no doubt looking to do with even more toys in the future exactly exactly and so basically what we're doing we at a little bit of digital content for for every tire you know and this is what our customers came to ask and this solution is dev. I now well. And i'm assuming tony between yourself and your other two rocket scientists literally that you're gonna come up with even more unique things. Where augmented reality and toys is a different. It is a new reality for toys. And i'm glad that you're there. I'm delighted that you were exhibiting at epa and and that you've had opportunity to share some of what you guys are doing with us. Thanks so much for spending a few minutes with us. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure and yet we are welcome to to answer any questions of your followers to refer is. Well we'll do shifts. That will pass them on to you as well. Augmented dash robotics dot com. Hit us up into tomorrow. Dot com prenatal care for expecting mothers has been revolutionized by imaging. Of course well now. This technology is available with a smartphone with this week's into tomorrow health. Tech minute brought to you by dex com. Here's alfred poor. Thanks dave one of the miracles of modern medicine is digital imaging safe. An accurate technologies such as ultrasound have made it easier to see what's going on inside a patient's body. This is especially true for expectant mothers ultrasound. Let's healthcare professionals check on the baby while it's still in the womb. Patients still have to travel to a doctor's office or other clinical setting to get a scan but that is changing pulse in more is and is rarely company that has created ultrasound transceiver that connects with a smartphone. Mothers can scan their bellies at home and the system will store and forward the images to healthcare professionals for review using artificial intelligence to guide the user. The system has been shown to be ninety five percent accurate. The devices approved in israel. And the eu with fda clearance pending. This device could also help improve prenatal care in underserved regions of the world for into tomorrow. Alfred poor back to you. Dave thank you. Alfred always coming up with cool things about health tech to share with us the into tomorrow. Health tech minute brought to you by dex calm. The future of diabetes management is here to visit d. e. x. c. o. m. dot com for more. This is betty white. I know you don't need one more thing to worry about. But listen high. Blood pressure can cause kidney damage. Blinds heart attack stroke and you can have high blood pressure even if you feel alright. One in seven adults hasn't but it's easy to get your blood pressure checked and you can treat it if it is too high. So don't worry about it. Don't ignore it. Just see your doctor. Check it out for your free booklet. Visit the will rogers institute. Wr institute dot org and find us on facebook and twitter. It takes twelve years to create a graduate. It takes about the same time to create a job out and at the end of the day the difference between a child becoming one or the other could you so united way is asking you to make a pledge tutor. A child who needs help mentor a kid who need someone on their side volunteer to read the children because when a child advances we all advanced reader to mentor. Give advocate volunteer live united. Take the pledge now at leaving. United dot org brought to you by united way and the ad council there are many sounds in your daily life ones that make you smile ones that help you relax and there are some sounds that can help save lives wireless emergency alerts now on many mobile devices use a unique sound and vibration to bring you critical information about emergencies in your area with updates from local sources you know and trust you can be in the know wherever you are. Learn more at ready dot gov slash alerts brought to you by fema and the ad council. Join me as i prepare. A collection of cherished recipes passed to generation watch recipes for disaster at foodsafety dot gov. You'll learn the right steps as maria. Does everything wrong brought to you by the. Usda h s and the ad council has no pre like getting home. Safely is just a click away. Find the right seat for your little ones age and size visit safercar dot gov slash therightseat for more information brought to you by the national highway traffic safety administration and the ad council paid steve here for the illinois. Broadcasters association and in a recent survey the illinois emergency management agency was asked to name the top five items that every illinois family needs to have in their homes. Emergency disaster kick check out these answers water kailua without number two non perishable food after all a man gotta eat right number three whether radio it make sure you got fresh batteries to number faw flashlight. Even more reason to have fresh batteries on hand number five first aid kit. Look there's no reason to feud over what items to put in your family's emergency disaster kit. Get the answers and more at ready dot illinois dot girl that's ready dot illinois dot gov sponsored by the emergency management agency aired in cooperation with the broadcasters association and this station. This is mario andretti. You know me as a racecar driver. I'm also a meals on wheels volunteer. I've raced against the sport's biggest personalities. But i've never met more vibrant amazing people than the seniors served by meals on wheels. You can make a difference by dropping off a hot meal and say a quick. Hello so america. Let's do lunch volunteer your lunch break at america. Let's do lunch dot org this message brought to you by nielsen wheels. America and the ad council been saying to your friend get a different face and posting on their feed. They're super ugly. The online are cruel and they're not true. So tell your friend. i'll stand up for you. Yano know someone being bullied online. You can be a witness and make a difference by letting the world know. It isn't cool by letting your friend know you care. Learn more at eye witness bullying dot. Org brought to you by the ad council. It's thanksgiving weekend within two tomorrow. Thank you for tuning in. Because that's what we have mostly to be thankful for is our audience. I'm dave gravely. I'm chris grave line. We are thankful for folks tuning in because it's our twenty fifth year on the air and we couldn't do it without our audience obviously and even more thankful when those tune in that the call in to the show and participate on the program. Because it makes a huge difference when you in fact use cameron's mantra win stuff. Thank you and thank you. Because he's right when you call in you win stuff. It's that easy and you can do so either by calling eight hundred eight nine nine into or using our free into tomorrow app and we love sending you prizes when you hear you on the air. This portion of into tomorrow is brought to you in. Part by hughes net high-speed satellite internet available. Where you live or work text radio to thirty five thousand for more info again. Text the word radio. Three five zero zero zero as the largest and oldest tech. Show's back it. As here's chris. Grave line historic passed in nineteen seventy one the funk stallone was officially renamed internationale funk out stallone or ifa in short with exhibitors from all over the world philips and grundig showed the prototype of the world's first video cassette recorder based on the vcr standard. The tape was housed in a cassette with two loops of tape. One on top of the other a timer and alarm clock was built in and recording. Time was up to an hour. That's this week's for update brought to you by berlin. Be sure to visit. Ifa dash berlin dot com. Be sure to do just that now. Nick son who is the ceo and founder of future candy and innovation agency from hamburg. Germany had an interesting. Ifa talk and of course our team that was covering audio and video for us in berlin captured. His talk and one of the more interesting keynote titles at he for this year was called from jesus to hyperloop this was part of the shift mobility event and it certainly caught our attention. It was presented. As i mentioned by nick. Amon the ceo and founder of future candy. He says there are. They are an innovation agency and in his talk he discussed the past present and future of the travel industry. Two thousand years ago the everett's person in its entire life span only lift in the radio of one hundred fifty kilometers. Jesus christ only moved around in a radius of one hundred fifty kilometers and last year. We could take plane. They are still. It only took us forty five hours to get around the club and there was also because of one plane that being discontinued this year. The seven. Four seven from boeing the plane that frank the world so mobility is one of the main things in our entire life. It means everything. Trevor ed mobility is one of the main needs of human beings and of course the travel industry is one of the oldest around and like many industries it continues to evolve once an industry is bone it never ceased to exist. It's always continuing the only important vestiges. The technology changes so here. We had in the beginning in the eighteen. Hundreds we'd railroads and now we have hyperloop so transportation and mobility is very dynamic sector now and then but the main problem of all of us here in our brains and minds. we have fifty years of advertising. Spend from the from the car industry fifty years. The kind of stories have told us we have to own a car. So this is why we all still desire many of us still desire to buy. But i say this changing i say now here onstage. In three years time more and more people would say. I spend eight thousand euros or dollars. I spent on owning aqa every year. I take this money and spend it on other things is scooters bikes cast herring all these other things one of the things. Nick related the mobility industry to is entertainment. And the fact that the more choices we have the more we will take advantage of so in the one thousand nine hundred seventy s people have spent only three hours consuming media and now in the two thousand people spend ten hours an average day in germany using media unbelievably and that is because of more and more platforms we had internet. We had more by streaming platforms. We had the moment time people consume media. We formerly only had the car the public transport the plane the bike and walking. Now we also have cast hearing. We have east scooters. We have a. We have bike sharing. We have all these new new inventions and they were mak- small mobile and so we all benefit from this the more fragmented view the be the more mobile. We will be boy. it's too bad. He wasn't excited. He also talked about other ways. The industry is evolving like the fact. In light of the pandemic certain new careers have popped up. You need to employ hygiene engineers like this guy raymond wing. You need to take people like him on board because you need to think. What do i do actually with air assault inside my means of transport with the surfaces. How do they clean themselves here. This guy he invented a new sucking system inside the cabin of an app play so is a person sneezes in an airplane you see that all the germs and the aerosol get sucked out in the bottom of the seats so that's why no one can get affected just by some alvin. Today's reimann vang invented this and that's people who beat inside. Your business is now because the consumer would pay for hygienic. Clean mean of transport. One problem many of us living in larger cities have is of course traffic. The sheer number of cars in cities like new york los angeles even here in miami causes a huge headache. One solution nick offers is a whole new way to plan cities. The reason why we all have cars is because the city planning was designed like so. Now it's really in for the western world too old to own a car because most cities were designed in the sixties after the second world war. So but the problem is is is of course. It takes a lot of space to other people in the car. The people on the bike to the people in in a bus all in a train. You can see how much clever it would be to have. Everyone fitted into a train. Yeah we see that because of the new cities new transport able to completely new city planning now even the united states where we have a lot of car owners and users sites for for for bike has gone up hundred thirty percent. You can't buy a bike anymore in an us bike store because they all sold out. Nick wrapped up his address by talking about the future of the mobility industry namely the hyperloop. That we've all heard about for a few years now. Many companies including one owned by elon. Musk are working on making this mode of transportation of reality and soon future never stops. Yeah from jesus to hyperloop three years time. We will have the first hyperloop tracks in india. There's eight hyperloop companies in the world. One is an abu dhabi. One is in india and the other side of the united states and canada and the first one starting. It will be in india if you do that. We have new new mobility concepts coming up when we have the hyperloop in three years time. You can take a means of transport whenever you want here. This guy he has to go from abu dhabi to dot ca and he just goes to the train station to the hyperloop stage whenever he wants and then from abu dhabi dubai and whatever he arrives his pot will be put into one hyperloop and then he gets sent off. So that's why there's no no arriva times that you have to know schedule you have to follow. You can go in hyperloop ever you want to. So this is the world we will be entering suit. And then i can go from cologne to walk in one thousand nine minutes now. I need four hours in a train or in a car or even plain including check out time and chicken in times twenty nine minutes from the city center. The city's center. That's let me finished with one thing. What does all this mean. It's your job to restart. Our industry go out. Tell the message become an evangelist. Then jesus for view boy for somebody recovering from pneumonia. I'm out of breath. That was nick son of ceo and founder of future candy. Stay tuned as into tomorrow. Continues to take. Now is a great time to replace your worn out windows during the renewal by anderson twenty-five years savings event upgrade. Your home today. Buy four windows and get one free plus get twelve months with no interest. No money down. No payments call now yet four windows and get the fifth one free installation and warranty included renewal by anderson takes every cdc recommended safety precaution to protect your family. For twenty five years. People have trusted us for their window. Replacement needs and you can too call now to learn about our by four. Get the fifth one free wonder replacement offer eight hundred two nine six one four four zero eight hundred two nine six one four four zero eight hundred two nine six one four four zero again. That's eight hundred two nine six fourteen forty interest accrues from date of purchase but his waved if paid in full within tall butts other conditions apply. We've adjusted our operations to serve you safely following all cdc guidelines eight hundred two nine six one four four zero. Are you podcasting. Is anyone listening for into tomorrow. I'm holland cooke the good news. Anyone can podcast. The bad news seems like everyone does. It's estimated that about a million podcasters of uploaded. Some thirty million episodes of those that were downloaded. How many got listened to all the way through let alone subscribed to that is a home run recommended to friends a grand slam. Here's a tip. Shorter beats longer when megaphone reviewed data from five hundred forty nine podcast among apple's podcast. Top two hundred list. They found a jump in programs running less than half an hour and that splitting two hours of content into multiple episodes usually results in more downloads. See my free video seven strategies for supersizing your podcast subscriber list. Look for the banner. Ad into tomorrow dot com. Do you owe ten thousand dollars or more on at least two federal student loans. Then you may qualify for new programs offered by the department of education. These programs can reduce your interest lower your payments and possibly qualify you for loan forgiveness if you have ten thousand dollars or more and at least two federal student loans and currently not in school you may qualify for one of these programs. Call now to check your eligibility student. Loan advisors are standing by to help you determine if you qualify for these new programs. They can help you reduce your interest. Lower your payment and even forgive a portion of your student loan debt. Take control of your financial future. Make this free five minute. Free call now to nationwide student loans and learn how you can reduce your student. Loan debt. Eight hundred eight one seven two nine three nine eight hundred eight one seven two nine three nine eight hundred eight one seven two nine three nine eight hundred eight one seven two nine three nine have some different sounding turkeys each segment. I've noticed so that's good something to be thankful for on this thanksgiving weekend. We're we are thankful to you as our listeners and thanking our staff and giving them the thanksgiving weekend off. So we're presenting you with a ross mos amazing editing ability and so forth Some of the best of our recent broadcasts from ifa in berlin. Germany from berlin germany. Actually it was from miami interviewing people in berlin because we couldn't go right from berlin via miami. Yeah that's that's kind of how we're saying but at least we could be thankful we still had three weeks worth of coverage which would have been the first time in eighteen years. We would not have covered. He fought. yeah but we did but into tomorrow. We don't let a global pandemic stand in our way. That's for sure. This portion of into tomorrow is brought to you in part by stream guys streaming media and podcasting solutions for the smartest businesses on the internet. Visit string guys dot com. We are in the robot vacuums space. We call it robot vacuum because it's a robot and neto is a company that is fifteen years olds seem say young company but in the field of robotics actually quiet a senior company. We've launched a frost robot about ten years ago in ten years. We created a generations. So this is the age generation today here and very important for us is to to point out the features it starts with shape and that is a so-called d shape. And why is it so important because it cleans in the corners and that is what rondo has this super big brush which actually cleans everywhere so the shape is important and then the next is how to navigate because robots really want to do a good job and it is important for us using Laser as an ivy gator. So the latest cancer room it creates a map and we use complex algorithms to calculate the perfect match of your of your home space and then the algorithm to clean the floor. We don't want to lose out any spot and we wanna make sure. It's very efficient and fast cleans times People are more sensitive than ever when it comes to a clean home and we see that run times off the robots have been increasing by over twenty to thirty percent even means people are using more their robots which is great on We built them for last. We wanna make sure that they worked long. And you're happy with especially if you have pets for example with hair. We have special brushes that you can use. We have special pat modes that you can switch on so that the robot then makes sure it it it picks up all. These hairs are founders. Had one dream to actually create the robot that perform household chores like a human being to free them from this. Let's say unhappy work of cleaning house. And i think that's something that a lot of companies working on but the robotic part is really the artificial intelligence the learning so that the robot itself understands that there are changes in the house right. There's furniture moving from left to right. People are moving around. Your pets are here or there and we wanna make sure that the robot doesn't fall down the stairs for example of war doesn't damage your precious furniture or it never runs over your precious pets. My wife would kill me right if that would happen. So that's very important. And these are features that are there and artificial intelligence. As i said the robotics part is is important. We control the robots through the app. We were the first to introduce a apple controlled. Robots through wifi. And you can schedule. Your your robot can also connected to your home network you to your google or your alex speaker and you can basically create zones and can tell them hey just cleaned the bathroom. It was go and clean the bathroom and if you have areas that you don't want the rubber to go you just draw no-ball lines and wouldn't touch it so there are a lot of features and we have the update opportunity so Not only that. The robot itself learns but we can send continuously updates that the robots get smarter over time the markets for robotics as extremely strong increasing which is a little bit unique in this consumer space. Very happy we see double digit growth rates every year and also the ever since prices going and even this year with gerona impact. We see that the market is still growing and in two two thousand seventeen. Roughly seven point three million units were shipped. And in this year we estimate over. Twelve million units to ships to the market and the value of of the global market for robotics vacuums. This in this year is about two billion and magazines and jfk. Things that in two thousand twenty five and we'll go up to twenty two to six billion dollars which is huge right and the trade is happy. They offer more and more shelf space for the robots and people have a choice and we wanna make sure that we have the absolute top notch product and the new ten detained. We call the ultimate cleaning machine. So we hope you'll love it and take it home and you enjoy it. Thomas netter the ceo of neato robotics which you to participate in gift card challenge just by gift card from one of your favorite local businesses. Then use it when things get back to normal or the rockstar and give it to someone working on the front lines to keep us safe. Learn more at gift card challenge dot org in an emergency. Radio can be your lifeline when the power is out and cellular networks are down next. Radio is the free. Fm radio app. That still works on your android smartphone download next radio now with the google play store. Stay tuned to this station and stay safe. Started as medicine to relieve the pain. Take the edge off stress to just get through the day. And i realized i can't stop. I can't stop can't stop. I can't stop can't stop we can help go to dot. Illinois dot gov slash opioids. Find ways to help you or the ones you love break. The cycle of opioid use disorder. Ddh got dylan. Oy dot gov slash opioids sponsored by something else that we are especially thankful for this thanksgiving week when you okay enough turkish when you subscribe to our free once a week tech news letter in. It's so easy to do just visiting into tomorrow dot com at your leisure or grave. Line dot com our last name. It'll still get you there and a little box pops up asking only for your email address which we don't share with anyone and it's a double opt in program because we don't spam anyone either so you will get a subsequent e-mails saying thanks for signing up to confirm click here. And then it clicks a link that says voila urine or something like that. I don't know what it says. Something like thanks for participating again at into tomorrow dot com. This portion of into tomorrow is brought to you by dex calm. The only continuous glucose monitor fda permitted for kids ages two years and up visit decks com dot com. That's dax com dot com one of the interesting products featured at the e for special edition. This year was called feel belt. The company is calling it a new era of immersion in gaming. Vr music and film. Now basically it's a belt that you strap around your waist and it introduces haptic feedback. While using vr watching movies or listening to music are berlin crew caught up with feel belts business development manager. Karston klipstine the special thing about our product. Is that no matter. How well i explain it or try to present it. Nobody dress split the moment they put the belt on and they feel it. Then they're like. Oh my god what is this so personal contact is key for us. This bell translates everything you can here. In movies and games. Music virtual reality into haptic feedback vibrations. Basically so you can feel it around your waist. The high notes in the front the notes on the back. So we're going full the full range of frequencies and were even telling park left and right so she can feel when she sitting the to the right or to the left like she's sitting in a real calm there are basically two benefits the one that's what she's doing right now. She's an able hearing person for her. It's fun it's immersion. And she's just more in the content but on the other side thereof deaf people and with this belt since it's so precise with splitting up the frequencies and the directions deaf people can use it to bring back everything they miss by not being able to hear so whenever they want to move they will be able to tell apart the villains deep voice from the lady screams help they will know if the buses coming from the left to the right or the other way round and in the same way it could even work as an everyday assistant and their regular life on the streets out there especially in in the sim racing. We can see huge. Pete in sales because all the official races everything out there on the regular racetrax at all has been counseled four-month so As numbers are going up for them and they love the field. I think that's especially cool. That they're helping the hearing impaired in that sense as well. Karston klipstine is the business development manager with feel belly. They were outnumbered reading out equipped. They had no chance of winning but they had one huge advantage. General george washington the fate of unfold. Millions will now depend under god on the courage conduct myth army. We have to resolve the concha on. Does the leadership of one man helped form nation today. Leadership can transform the world. Leadership is a new now. Pass it on from pass it on dot com brother together all right. Let's go dorks know how to keep kids safe. Do you know. I know you cover making sure your child is in the right. Car seat is one of the steps to safer for travel. I will you will rocked it to know for sure that your child is in the right car seat for their age and size visit safercar dot gov slash therightseat cooler cool. Who brought to you by the national highway traffic safety administration and the ad council. It's important to plan ahead for emergencies like this storm. When it kicked in we had rated we were able to get each other how to find each other. The whole experience was fine. Most frightening ten hours of my life. If there's one piece of advice i'd offer other moms out there. It's to stay calm to in some parents plan ahead some. Don't make sure you know where to find your family in an emergency. Start your planet. Ready dot gov brought to you by fema and the ad council. I'm bobby light with today's car clinic. Minute trolls charge across bridges banks. Levy them to use atm's. But i know automotive the that's next best to free and good for the environment. When i come back. I'll tell you all about it. When your battery goes dead everything could come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded. Stop by o. Reilly auto parts and get your battery tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery. That fits your car or truck at guaranteed low price o'reilly auto parts better parts better prices every day parts. Believe it or not that keeps two things green your wallet and the environment when purchasing a new battery for your vehicle. A court charge levied by the government is collected by retailers. So where's the good news trade in your old battery and the fees waived or if you forget to bring it with you just return it later. And the court charge you'll be cheerfully refunded and environmental bonus used batteries kept out of landfills are collected from retailers and recycled. I'm bobby like us like us. You love us. Thousands of people contact invent help monthly about their invention or new product. Do you think companies would be interested in your idea. Do you want to try to get a patent call. Inventhelp now best of all the call and information are free invent help. Keep your idea confidential explaining every step of the invention process we create professional materials and submit them to companies who are looking for new ideas in your category. We have more than nine thousand companies who've agreed to review new ideas in confidence if a company shows interest in manufacturing your invention we can negotiate on your behalf. We have helped over. Ten thousand clients receive patents. We offer three d. modeling and animation prototyping services and we use state of the our technology to present client ideas to additional companies. Joined people just like you. Who made the call to invent help. All for free information at one. Eight hundred three five three seven zero one seven. That's one eight hundred three five three seven zero one seven again. One eight hundred three five three seven zero one. Seven a fee based company. Free talk live. There was a being he started. Lock are you saying. Michael jackson has come back and he said i am. Michael jackson see. I called it. You talk with god throughout your life. You heard this voice that you recognized as god telling you. Do you believe in magic inviting you to look out the window. Where you then saw michael jackson coming down from a rainbow ray of light coming from the sky. So what happened. Then did he invite you to his playland land or whatever it is. He has nine months later. The virgin birth happen again where the rubber always meets the road. Actually i'm not even sure what that means. Speed radio network life heart. Feed dot com. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and instagram's another election lawsuit tossed i'm pam who so fox news in a unanimous ruling pennsylvania supreme court has dismissed a lawsuit by republicans aiming to stop the certification of votes. The ruling blocked a lower court order to halt certification of any remaining contests also over the weekend. President trump's campaign suffered a legal loss in pennsylvania. The president says the case will be appealed and the campaign is eyeing the supreme court another setback. Yes but yet another appeal to come for the trump campaign. He says the number of ballots that our campaign is challenging in the pennsylvania case is far larger than the eighty-one thousand vote margin. It's not even close fraud. And illegality are a big part of the case fox's kevin corke president trump will be interviewed by fox's maria bardo romo his first interview since election day it happens at ten. Am eastern on sunday morning futures on the fox news channel. Colorado governor jared. Police says he feels well. Despite testing positive for the coronavirus along with his partner both men are isolating at their home. The approval of vaccine could be less than two weeks. Away and pfizer is pre-positioning supplies in the us. United airlines is playing a major part in the shipping. They're going be chartering flights from belgium all away to chicago. And what makes it even more interesting. They're going to be carrying five times. The amount of dry ice normally permitted on board to keep the vaccine at the necessary cold temperature for effectiveness. Fox's david spent a pair of suicide bombers in afghanistan killed at least thirty four people today in one attack. A military humvee packed with explosives was driven onto a military base and detonated the other blast targeted. The convoy of a provincial chief. No group has claimed responsibility. America's listening to fox news as iran's supreme leader demands definitive punishment for the assassination of a nuclear scientist. A hard line or running newspaper is suggesting the regime attack the israeli port city of haifa and caused heavy human casualties. Iran blames israel for friday's ambush iranian state media says the scientists convoy was traveling down the road when a bomb went off and stopped when they stopped the iranian media says at least five popped up and opened fire on the scientists suv. Now israel has long been suspected of employing. Exactly these kinds of assassinations in iran including one of another scientists. Almost exactly one decade ago. Fox's ryan chill coat more than six months after they started. Protests are still going strong outside the official residence of israeli prime minister. Benjamin netanyahu demonstrators believe. He should step down. While on trial for corruption many also disagree with his handling of the coronavirus pandemic in the next couple of weeks. The us could start rolling out a coronavirus vaccine. Utah state lawmaker. Steve ellison took part in maderna's vaccine trial so as a to injection vaccine. And both times. I had some side effects particularly the second time the several weeks. After the second vaccine i went and had an antibody test performed and it showed that i had six to seven times the antibodies of somebody who had recovered from covid. So that was a very strong indication that i had received the vaccine. Madonna's vaccine is said to be about ninety five percent effective so as fires which could soon be granted. Emergency use authorization by the fda. It may not be long before a vaccine is approved in england. The british government says it hopes to vaccinate the vast majority of the people who need the most protection by april officials. Also warning that before that happens there will be a tough winter up restrictions pam. How fox news. America's ready to get back to work but to win the new economy. You need every advantage to succeed. Smart companies run on net suite by oracle the world's number one cloud business system. Schedule your free product to a right now at net sweet dot com slash fox nets tweet dot com slash box. Welcome into tomorrow with dave line the interactive radio network program with the latest in high tech products and services and the experts. Who bring them to you. This is into tomorrow. Here's dave grave line. Welcome in tuned tomorrow for the weekend of friday november twenty seventh thanksgiving weekend during our twenty fifth year on the air. I'm dave grave line. I'm prescriptive line. We are thankful for many things especially in most importantly you our audience for listening to the program even more thankful when you call in and participate on the program. Chris and i are also thankful for both of us. Having survived the rona. So there's lots of thankful for we'll as you said last hour we're also thankful for the flood versus a fire right disasters. Go floods low on the Emergency people who lose their fire for us here in this scenario. Yeah because our control room and tv studios are a step down lower from the rest of our facility the radio studio and everything else so that became a problem when we had about three inches of water from a tropical storm ava come pouring in. You might say flooding in ruining a whole bunch of stuff. But we're thankful for the fact that it could have been worse at it wasn't we're also thankful to give our staff the weekend off to celebrate thanksgiving with their families and as a result we're bringing you highlights from our recent ifa broadcast yes. Yes but what does not offer. The holidays are ask. Dave hotline participate on the show to win prizes. Eight hundred eight nine nine into the founder and chief medical officer from a company called eb technologies e b technologies who is also very involved with for this year. Dr eric not nuff singer joined his dr eric. Welcome into tomorrow. How are you sir. Good thanks and it's great to be here. We're glad to have you with us because it certainly caught our attention When you talk about calming a racing. Mind i am. I not the only one that has that issue that it's like mind to stop. I just gotta go to sleep now. It's you know. I i was Practicing sleep medicine for over thirty five years and one of the most common complaints that people come to me with as doc you know my my head hits the pillow at night time but i just can't stop my mind from going. My my mind continues to work. I continue to think about this now. The other thing doesn't make any sense. I just can't get it to stop at night nine. So so that's where we come in. Wall is is trying to help with that burden sleeplessness. And of course you're an md. So you know from a medical concern. This is not good for us to be up all night hoping to finally fall asleep this disrupts a whole lot of our lives. And it's not like we don't hit the pillow tired because i've been exhausted all man tonight's going to be a good night's sleep because i'm just exhausted and then the mind won't stop and it's like people say well count sheep. Oh please yeah. That didn't i count breaths. I count you know th the ceiling. Whatever nothing works and then of course. I'm a clock watcher anyway. So it's one thirty. If i get to sleep now i've still got five hours or so and that doesn't help us. This is. This is a problem that many of us suffer. Yeah it really is. It's about half of the people in the united states. Have problems sleeping at one point or another in their lifetime. And as you mentioned. I i am an md. My career was mostly spent in research at the university of pittsburgh where i was a professor and did a lot of nih research. We did brain imaging studies to understand the biological mechanisms behind the problems falling asleep at night time. And and what we found. Is that the frontal cortex. Our executive mind just doesn't shut off. It remains active. Even though we're asleep at night time so that the device is really devised to fit over the forehead over the area the frontal cortex to reduce that activity so that people can drift into more general and restful sleep at night times. Eric how you're calling the executive mind that makes me feel a little better of that. It's not the dave is going nuts. Mind it's the executive mind that won't stop. So how'd you come up with the idea for this device that is has it already begun helping people. Is it available yet. yes it is available. It's you can go to our website. Sleep dot com. And it's available for purchase there at seville and Amazon bed bath and beyond or a variety of commercial and consumer out. And that's where it can be so the idea really came up The the problem in medicine is how do treat sleeplessness or insomnia in up until this point in time the only solution we have were were sleeping bill trillion and and sleeping pills or not necessarily the best thing they can be habit forming People can become dependent on them and they do have unfortunately some side effects drowsy driving. Memory problems confusion arouses in the middle of the night so most doctors and most patients would prefer more healthy natural solution. Which is what we think that we have. It's a very safe Device it has In other renditions been fda cleared for the treatment of sleep problems so as a lot of scientific research behind it. It helps calm down the racing mind to allow people to get more restful sleep so i'm hearing listeners in my head Which is what. I hear all the time especially when i'm trying to go to sleep saying things like well why not. Just turn your ac all the way down if if we need to cool this executive Mind and that's what you're ab- device does wouldn't that help is not now concentrated where we need it. That's exactly right. And he has to be concentrated and and you can imagine if the room around you as cool your body kind of works against that so our bodies keep themselves warm all day irrespective of whether or not there's air conditioning on or fan or you're outside so our bodies have a natural way of regulating themselves and keeping themselves warm and hot so it does require a little bit. Extra energy and the device cools fluids. In that circulates the fluids all night long over the forehead in. You can imagine you know. Sitting in a cold lake is going to do more cooling than just being outside on a chilly day. If you will true. And i guess if you're bringing the down dramatically not only. Are you chilling the entire house. That doesn't need to be chilled when it's just the bedroom but you're killing your entire body that doesn't need to be chilled when in this case this forehead device is chilling. The area That you need now. I'm also thinking what about folks that are thinking. Yeah but won't that give me a headache. Is is there that kind of an issue with cooling justice forehead. Yeah so it's not that much cooling. It's a precision cooling and the level of cooling is in a moderate range it's In the high fifty degree around sixty degrees fahrenheit range. Okay so this is not an ice cube. This is not an ice pack. It say you know it's it's a reasonably comfortable level of cooling but it's continuous all night long so it is providing just the right amount of thermal stimulus. If you will help people get to sleep at night time but not arouse them. It's not gonna wake them up because they're feeling to cole good. I like a little thermal stimulus. I think that's that can always be helpful right and and it looks like for those listening on the radio have not yet seen the video which again be sure to come by into tomorrow dot com and it's designed to stay on all night right so if i'm aside sleeper it's not going to be a problem Those that might sleep on their stomach is at an issue or it's just a matter of positioning your pillow. Perhaps with the headband. Yeah you know this thin. It's really very thin in comfortable just like putting on a stocking cap. Let's that level of thickness. It's not going to interfere with your had even fewer face though you you could wear it in that position on either side on your back. No problems with tossing and turning and it's called the eb cool draft. Yes that's correct. Correct is the name of the product and eb. Why that name you know. We is the ebb and flow of the ocean with the tides. Okay in the tide comes in. There's a lot of energy that builds up and then when the ocean drifts back out either is kind of a a calming sensation. We mellow like that. That it's the abbots the flowing out of these Forces in the ocean that the tides of the ocean also reflect a rhythmic process. Which is what the sleep wake cycle is all about you. We go back and forth into sleep and wakefulness over the course of a day. So it is a natural body rhythm. Gotcha and what does it cost. How many us dollars at this point. Yeah so we have a couple of different versions. It's just under four hundred dollars for our lex version and we also have verse versa version which is a little bit more affordable Which is in the mid three hundred dollar range and and People can see both versions on our website and they can understand the The minor differences between these two. And frankly for those of us that do have trouble falling asleep because the executive mind just won't slow down It's it's it seems to be very reasonable to get that not only peace of mind but to get some sleep and to be able to say. This is going to do the job for me. I'm assuming the.

italy rick steves naples jessica 401k francesco rome europe amazon jessica bruder Jessica bruder Schutte Stratful zero kilometer carlo petrini lattanzio south sicily alfredo vitale Naples marijn
#159: Is Digital Advertising a Bubble Ready to Burst? with Tim Hwang

The Digital Analytics Power Hour

1:03:08 hr | Last month

#159: Is Digital Advertising a Bubble Ready to Burst? with Tim Hwang

"Welcome to the digital analytics power. Our michael mode. Tim and the occasional guest discussing analytics issues of the day and periodically using explicit. While doing so find them on the web at analytics our dot And on twitter at analytics our and now the digital. I don't take power our hi everyone. Welcome to the digital analytics power hour. This is episode one hundred and fifty nine in real estate. The old phrases location location location. And maybe when you're writing books about current events it's like comedy where timing is what matters most but whatever the case over here today to go one level deeper topic actually most of us touch almost every day in our jobs as analysts said digital advertising. Space tim wilson. You've made the book the subprime attention crisis. Alas call on the show and subsequently mentioned it multiple episode since it came out this past faller eua superstock to be so plugged into the zeitgeist here at the dawn of what is hopefully post covid nineteen world. But i feel like. I've been living with this topic for years and had not seen somebody put it together with so much evidence so i am. It is like the last part of christmas for me. It's the gift there you go the season of giving canal officially end with this episode. Of how how're you doing. I'm glad i'm just trying to plot how. I'm going to get a word in with tim today. Literally questions like are you gonna join me trying to get a word in edgewise on an episode. I'm sure we'll be awesome. And michael hobbling but we're gonna discuss the book. The subprime attention crisis. We needed guest someone who could lend us their insight into it. So we got the books author. Tim long is a writer and researcher. He's the former director of harvard. Mit ethics and governance of ai initiative and previously served as the global public policy lead artificial intelligence and machine learning google. His work has appeared in the new york. Times washington post wired the atlantic and the wall street journal amongst other publications lives in new york city and today he is our guest. Welcome to the show. Tim hi everybody. Thanks for having me on the show. Your timing is excellent. We're delighted to get the chance to chat with you and by delighted to chat. I mean tim has tim. Wilson has a series of questions. I am i am ready to answer them. So how can i help. No it's really exciting. And we've all had a cheese to read your book. And i think all of us found it. Pretty thought-provoking fascinating. I think a great starting point. You know you spend a couple of the first. Two chapters of the book laying up the landscape of the digital advertising world. And i think that's probably a good at a very high level. Let's have a conversation. Starting maybe their most of our listeners will have some familiarity but good for them to kind of understand like what are you really kind of like what is the case. You're making this book the thesis if you will sure there you go ooh very literary mile via the best place to start with that i think is just like how the book came to be and i'm really glad that is in fact the first question because i think of the book in many ways you know whether or not you buy the argument is just to you know. Explain in simple terms right. What is this money machine That's at the center of the internet and the inspiration for the book really actually came from the time that i was working at google. And what's surprising is for company. Were you know. Eighty percent plus of its revenue comes from ads. Basically the business model of the company is kind of a rumor. You talk to people on a daily basis. They're excited about ai. They're excited about self driving cars but even engineers at google you say how do we make money and could you explain the system and a lot of them. Don't frankly don't know right. And so the point of the book at you know at the very first part of it is really to explain how on my advertising functions on a day to day basis and know there's a lot of complexity but the basics are pretty simple and and some of it is that ads are same as it ever was right. You have people who have attention that they want to sell on. These are people who are known usually as publishers. So this could be everything from your local newspaper. That has a website to facebook or google right and then on the other hand. You have people who wanna buy that attention. They want to spend money to get their message in front of people. Those are the those are the ad buyers so far. That's basically the structure right. The supply and demand of the economy that really has defines how ads have always worked with different with the kind of advertising that you have online though. Is that's a form of advertising this known as programmatic advertising and essentially what it is is that you have basically the buying and selling of attention coordinated through algorithms and specifically these algorithms that compete in these auctions on a split second basis so typically the way it works is that you load a website and immediately at the point at which you load the website. There's a signal that goes out to the marketplace and says i have a male twenty five to thirty five living in new york. Did anyone by one by an ad to deliver to him and that split second. There's basically an auction that occurs and depending on who wins. They basically earned the right to load that at and all that happens a basically between the time at which i click on a link to win the website loads this happens basically billions and billions of times a day and this really is sort of the rocket fuel. This is the engine right. That is really creating you know. Really wocka amounts of money to companies like facebook. And that's the beat. That i like the way that you explain expanded. Actually in book. I had several very conflicting emotional thoughts. One particular. When you describe that is like oh you're scrolling through things and you've seen an ad and a transaction has happened. I mean obviously like we work in the data space. So i guess we know kind of know that transactions happen but i've never actually thought about it as like. Oh i just took part in a transaction. That's happened line. That i had no import or like oversight all of it. It left me feeling very strange. I'm not gonna lie yet. And i think it is like i mean what's amazing about it is like as from pure engineering feat standpoint. It's crazy what we're talking about right like we've created this massive global infrastructure that does this billions and billions of times a day and so funny because like i think on a day to day basis. You know we're we're not aware of the transactions that are always happening. And i do think that you know there's almost a feeling of curing behind the curtain a little bit which is a little bit uncanny. It's a little bit. You know unsettling but i think one of the things you quickly get into in this is where is a coming from a digital analytics background in for the first. I don't know five to eight years of that. Never really working closely with with media agencies and this was kind of programmatic when there was still a lot more transparency but it was felt to be kind of a blunt instrument. I may be buying ads on a specific property or a set of properties. Or even. If i'm buying audiences it wasn't full on programmatic but it it does seem like there. Was this idea this this race to get more efficient story we can. We can build the machines. We can get the response time to be quick enough. We can now get everything kind of in the magic really fast blackbox. That's using machine learning and ai. Where kind of can you. Maybe talk about how that felt. That was a really good story. But then ironically it actually introduces wave visibility. If you say. I bought. I bought a million impressions but i have no idea where they are shown. All i know is the type of person that i was expecting to have them put in front of and i have to kind of take this big leap of faith that they were put in front of the audience. I wanted to put them in front of Yeah that's right. I mean. I think the core origin right of programmatic advertising right like this crazy algorithm rube goldberg machine. That we've created. It's really driven by scale ryan. It's in some ways. No surprise right that google was one of the first companies to implement these systems. Because suddenly when you're serving up search results that you want serve ads against them. You really can't have a salesperson takes call and says oh you'd like to deliver an ad on this time in the state sure will put that up on the website and i think in some ways that is really one of the key dimensions that has also simultaneously produced a lot of opacity in the market. Right which is when you deliver ads online. You will sometimes deliver hundreds of ads right to huge ounce of people. It's becomes very difficult to track where your ad goes. And in fact while you're at ends up in a certain place and i think that is one of the features of the marketplaces. Ironically even though we have a lot more data about like you know when the ad is delivered and how much money spent on it and that sort of thing it's also introduced a lot of you'll pass it in the sense that like this plumbing has ads ended up in all sorts of places where we don't always understand why it happened a way that did i'm just thinking a lot about budgets at the moment and your suffice to say there has been lots of shift from some of a more traditional advertising platforms. Like tv and radio. Were you do still call up a person in new book a time and all that sort of stuff and without getting into whether either marketing channel is effective works. 'cause that's a whole nother. Discussion companies largely have shifted a huge portion of their budget to that programmatic advertising. Do you think that's fundamentally because all the as of it or do you think it's also very deeply coupled with we. We think it works so we have access to more data like what really drove that shift. Yes it is a fascinating anecdote. This reminds me of in the early history of google. Where basically google for a period of time has a team of sales people who do it. The old school way based in new york and they're constantly paranoid that basically like mountain view is attempting to automate them with all this programmatic advertising stuff. And i do think that one way of thinking about the relationship of these companies right the news sort of digital giants with sort of the media channels that have existed in the past really is a competition between sort of like this data driven automated way of delivering ads and the manual seat of your pants way of doing so. And i think in some ways motor point right like i do think that the perceived credibility the perceived power of delivering messages in this way is one of the reasons that the dollars have flowed from one place to the next right and would look the question. My book asks is like is this kind of intuitive fairy tale. We tell ourselves right. Which is like i have more data so i should be able to target my messaging better. Is that really the case right and is the programmatic advertising system really kind of delivering on. Its promise right and what does it mean that. If if he doesn't deliver on its promise and is there. Is there a lineage. Interesting that if if you go to to paid search when you're getting a super powerful signal and that somebody is typing type thong into their search bar and are we talking about destroying thongs. I i was i. This example actually mo was leading up to a local. I e exactly where i was heading so you saw. I was going but if i type that in and i'm a company that sells thongs generically of some sort than i'm buying on that because i know right now. This person has expressed that they have an interest in it and then it does become a wait a minute. You're looking or you. where are you looking for footwear. Are you looking for underwear okay. We'll we'll google also generally as a pretty deterministic sense of where you are. So now i can gio target it. And so that seemed like a very very good in even just what's happened with edwards with with all the bidding and all the thought of what went into figuring out relevance in the way that machine is kind of grown. It does seem like there's this idea that when you're saying oh i wanna target eighteen to twenty four year old female who have children and are making decisions about healthcare that. There's this idea that. Oh we have the same level of specificity. About targeting that person in many different places on the internet that we have of somebody who said thong and i'm interested in in thong like is that is that again sort of part of that that myth that we we treat all signals. We want to think that that anytime. There's a field available that we have very specific knowledge. Which we kinda did with its. What are they looking for on the web. You don't know if they want to buy a thong herb clean cleaner thong or or whatever but still you had. That was much more a stronger piece of information than these kind of attitudinal things. Yeah i think there's two subtleties here. I think one of the subtleties which is important. And i think the book sometimes gets misinterpreted and some of the interviews done. Which is people say. Oh well you think the ads. Just don't work that right. And i think that isn't the claim right like we definitely have cases in which it seems pretty certain that the ads work right. The famous case in search ads is like messily oma right like if you're searching for an obscure medical condition it's because you probably have it right and that ends up being like a really powerful signal to deliver an ad right the question. The book is asking in some ways is like is that case that we can think of. Is that the norm. Or is that the outlaw fire. Right and i tend to think that it is the outlier just because even in search right which has his reputation of being like the strongest signals right. There's so many things you can search for that provide totally ambiguous things you might deliver ads against right and so i do think that we have been lulled into a series of kind of you know received wisdom about what works and what doesn't online that may actually not really be the case once you start looking into it again. I think tim one of the subtleties there to that. I'm sure we're gonna get you in interview is going to be you know. Is the data that you even have on that person. Accurate right we can. We can get to the question of like dozen. Add work if you're actually targeting to the person that you intend in the whole systems working as intended but there's so many lines of intermediation places where it can fail and one of them is just like. How much do we know that. We're actually targeting the right person. We think that we are so yet. Something that really stood out to me. As i read the book was that historically the publisher was the person who provided the information about the person who was being advertised to and this ecosystem we've really changed the ship of that data now the platforms and networks own all that information and they're the ones controlling who gets what targeting so google knows everything about you. Facebook knows everything about you. And so whatever advertisement you get on time dot com. Is it really being driven by time. As a publisher as much as the network that they're choosing to participate in. And that's doing that. And i thought that was kind of very interesting because when you talk about data and personal data which you sort of eu concept under gdp pr that has implications potentially. Yeah i think that's that's right right. I i do think that like again. I think this is one of the reasons is really useful to think about. Ads is almost like a lens for thinking about everything that happens on the internet. You can almost look at anything that happens on the internet and be like. How did advertising like inform the way this turned out. And i think that michael. You're you're really good point which is basically that like even though the surface of it doesn't seem to have changed all that much rather the underlying question about like who's holding onto the data and who owns the data and has radically shifted right and so like in some ways like the. What's what immediately obvious may not actually reflect like the deeper reality of the situation and that's the funny thing is that now these marketing platforms are also asking for more dada laying when you send them a particular that you want to target. They're like oh you can enrich it with these these unease and that will help us with better targeting which will make your roi more efficient and like they try and incentivize you to share even more daughter about your user base which ultimately there than the the word guardian comes to mind but it feels really inappropriate and that i mean that just makes their engine better and bigger which oh there was no question to appointment general existential angst. Yeah i think that's right. I mean i do think in some ways the because because i come out slightly differently on the debate of like data all worth anything in the end right but i do think that like regardless of whether or not it's actually effective at targeting right it's actually effective at making adds more impactful in some ways. The collection of data aggregation of data almost has gotten its own logic. Now right we're just like you just want more data because if you have more data than you're better than if you're better you get paid more right and i do think that that does create these perverse incentives in the space which is like even if the core of it is no longer working we would still see a market where people are trying to like aggregate all the state of which has been very real. Say privacy consequences. You're the book sort of the connection. You make is from this space of digital advertising to the two thousand eight subprime lending crisis the financial crisis. And maybe if you could talk through that a little bit because it was. Or maybe i'll i'll give my very quick version. You can correct it. The subprime lending crisis was kind of all of these obscure these financial instruments that were actually propping up an entire financial sector. Nobody understood it. There were some shenanigans going on and that was like powering economies and then it felt like a house of cards and since dejoy advertising is in many ways powering the internet and with that's not an uncommon for the advertisers for the publishers to make say look advertising not bad were were funding the internet and my understanding of your case is was the same thing. It's kind of built on a house of cards or or a bubble. That's that's this due to burst and all we really touched on is the opacity of. Does it really work. But it you kind of laid out other ways that it's kind of analogous to the financial crisis. Yeah i think there's basically a lot of lessons to learn you know it's actually kind of joking with a friend the other week which is like you to pick an analogy because it's simpler than the topic that you're talking about landed on the financial crisis its famously wonky. And my complicated and difficult tenure. Read this michael. Lewis book is a prerequisite for this exactly. I mean my my mom was like. This is the most boring book i could ever you. Yeah i think that's right. So i think there's a lot of lessons that can be learned from the two thousand seven two thousand eight financial crisis. I think maybe let's before we dive into that. It's just a preliminary question which is is it a good metaphor right. Is it a good parallel to what we're seeing in the ad market and the argument make in the book is really like you'd look at the history of financial bubbles market bubbles of all kinds right two thousand eight but also dictate your pick right. And there's really these three elements right. Like one of them is what we talked about which is opacity right. It's very difficult to know what's going on in the marketplace and it's really important because the second element right which is kind of what i call sort of like subprime asset value right. The thing that we thought was really valuables actually decreasing in value over time and or passively. Basically allows that to happen without anyone really realizing that it's going on right and then the final dimension that you need is sort of this this kind of perverse ecosystem of people that have incentives to keep flogging the value of it even though that might not actually match the reality right and that's had surpri mortgage crisis right like you had these very opaque assets. You had these mortgages that were going under. And then you had these banks and rating agencies that had very strong incentives to kind of push the mark though you know. There was kind of structural problems with it and the argument is kind of the same existent ads right. Like the market's really opaque is only a few people who really understand it. The quality of ads and the attention they captured declining over time. And then this whole ecosystem of people who have made fortunes right on pushing the dream of programmatic ads and at least with that system is like yeah okay. We have all the ingredients that that kind of set us up for a market bubble and also kind of where i'm at will on on that on that group. That are all sort of. I mean it really is. It's like the ad tech vendors who are the the technology supporting in the infrastructure supporting programmatic. They're incentivized the media agencies saying give us money we have access to this magical ecosystem and we get compensated based on the more you spend the more we get paid and then you've got even the advertisers. It seems well. I guess the even the the advertisers are general incentivized. I think you got into this. It's going to be hard for them to say. Or maybe this was in the freakonomics episodes that it's going to be hard to say. Well i bought into this for the last five or eight or ten years. That's what i've been telling the board. I'm spending the money on. And by the way the more spend the more my stature grows and the next bigger cmo job. I can get so it's literally. No one is incentivized to even though there's lip service to efficiency it's everyone is incentivized to continue to let this. This grow which it does seem like is analogous to the financial crisis. Yeah i think that's right. And and i think one of the things that example teaches us is that like people in the game can know the problems in the game for a really long time and have very limited incentives to solve it right during the two thousand seven crisis right like banks were like. Yeah we just gotta keep this going even though we know. It's not really you know going to stay around for long. And i think the same is here The the case here as well in the ad markets right which is like you have heard from some people in the ad industry. They're like yeah. We know about ad fraud right. Like we know about the rise of ad blockers. We know that there's a passage in the market. So a lot of these problems are well known in the industry. The the question is like do you think that they're going to take the painful steps necessary to stop it. I my answer would be no. But that's that's the beat. That kind of left may like i said i. I had these mixed emotions reading this and the links into what would the internet look like if they did full over Was something that. I found myself like sitting in the garden putting plans thinking about you know. Would i be prepared to pay for google maps. Google doesn't have a revenue stream from advertising. And i was kind of like. Oh yeah you know. I'll be fine to pay for every time i needed to use google maps and then you make this really eloquent points about like the fact that the whole internet is based on the senate there. Isn't there were people groups of people that can't afford to pay for things like that and then it jus- tom yeah. Do you want to paint us a little bit of a picture of what it would look like. This whole. advertising world blew up. sure yeah with pleasure. I'd be happy to do. I mean. I think again. This is like lessons. We can learn from two thousand seventeen thousand eight right like part of the trouble of what we have here. Is that like the bubble has grown so quickly. It generates so much money that it's it's very difficult right like we may have all of these disagreements with you know the the privacy consequences of this ecosystem and whatnot but we're kind of chained to it in some ways right and i do think that like a bubble bursting right would have huge impacts right and there's kind of three ways that i usually think about it right like so one of them which is on a very personal level right is to think about all the services you rely on every day right which are free and subsidized through advertising. That you might lose access to but like the google maps question right. And i think the huge kind of inequality that might emerge from a world in which suddenly like well you can pay. You have access to these amazing services if you can't you don't right. I think the second thing which is interesting to think about like the whole ecosystem of media and journalism that rests programmatic advertising. Right if you think that those things are key to things like democracy right a downturn could really impact right like you know how. Many people are employed. What kind of media is being produced that that entire universe of things. And then i think the final one which is very top of mind for me is like you as mentioned earlier like i worked at google. I worked with a lot of people who are like part of their a lab. And that's like the cutting edge research but it's also a huge loss leader for the company right that it is essentially something that's also subsidized by ads. And so i do think downturn would also even impact things like that. We don't expect like scientific right in the field of right which is something that seems like very unrelated but has become subsidized by ecosystem. And so yeah. I think it touches. You know a lot of parts of the economy that we don't normally think about so this this is the. Let's let's get twenty twenty one rolling with real pick-me-up here but it but it does going back at the one. The one thing we didn't mentioned with the financial crisis was that you even had consumers. The the borrowers were able to get access. People were able to buy houses because they didn't they could even get access to credit that they didn't understand like i wonder if. That's kind of the the the advertiser analog but yeah. I mean i really wanted things i worry about is also the psychological price of things right so like the example that i always give is like you know because amazon created the super controlled ecosystem called kindle. We don't think twice about spending fifteen dollars on what's effectively like a text document right but like for music it. Has this history where there was massive file. Sharing our psychological price of music is zero dollars and zero sense. And i do think that one of the impacts of shock like this right is like suddenly all these consumers that were trained that certain services zero dollars suddenly face like increased prices to go after the services reds. It is kind of questions about like what become sustainable in a market like that as everybody needs to readjust to a world where oh suddenly this thing that i've lived for a decade that that has been free. Is something something that i have to like pay for on a monthly basis which i think would be a really interesting kind of outcome of the bubble bursting so you kind of lay out a bit of a plan of how to how to kind of gently burst the bubble being kind of an agency consultancy to me. It seems like the near term for for me to talk to. My clients is measure. This stuff do it in our. You know we just had an episode about randomized controlled trials and actually basically value your advertising a little bit better you take kind of a a much larger view of how how could we have a controlled bursting. That doesn't doesn't drive increase. Income inequality doesn't put the already anemic journalism industry completely under an an ever recoverable way. Are you able to kind of summarize how you envisioned that potentially working. Yeah sure so. The main thing that i'm really interested in right is like in some ways. I think it's like the macro version of tim. What you're about on the agency level right like on the agency level. You're basically saying to clients. Look maybe you should measure this better right. You're gonna learn some things that are maybe a little bit uncomfortable but hey we should probably be having those conversations sooner rather than later and in some ways. My proposals like to do that. But at a market wide scale right because right now basically people don't face any real consequences for like distributing garbage information essentially into the marketplace and so the dream is again this is like a super wonky thing but like the idea is like the government. Could you imagine a world where the government says look. There's certain data standards for the kinds of ad inventory. You're gonna put out into this market and if it turns out that those those metrics are false right. You will actually face liability for them. And what's interesting is that the idea here is not to put the government in a world where it says this ad is good in. This ad is bad right. Which is i think it's very difficult to do. But more on a world where it's trying to at least increase the credibility of the kinds of information that you get through these markets right and you think that that is a powerful way forwards just because i part of the reason we have a bubble is because the information is so cloudy and also because of obviously the duopoly has been very reticent about giving up information all these things i think like combined to make a market that's deeply unhealthy and so i think one thing that can be done certainly regulation that helps shine a light on what's going on but i feel like this is that space where regulation is always so behind. I mean even if you look at data privacy. I mean yes. Europe was very forward leaning. But i feel like generally regulation is so behind because they don't understand the problem if that's the if that's the option like a i don't know i still really bleak. Yeah i think that i mean. I think it's totally fair point. I mean maybe you could try. I mean i'm curious about what you think about. This is like one of the things. I've been thinking. A lot about is whether or not privacy. Laws ended up being like the detonator for the bubble and the reason being is basically like all of advertisers are like. Don't take my data way if you take my data away ads. We'll just not work anymore. And i imagine a world where there's almost as perverse outcome. Where like gdp are really comes into force epa really comes into force and actually turns out that like ads are okay like that it turns out that all this data we've collected is pretty much the same as like really dumb contextual advertising for decades ago that sort of thing would really kind of shine a light on like maybe the the fact that you know all the state actually is not what we what we thought it was a men and that really could readjust the market in some ways but it was interesting is the regulators wouldn't be intentionally doing that. They'd sort of be like elephant. Glass shop sort of causing this to occur. We'll and it stood out to me that you didn't delve into you. Privacy regulations as a mechanism in the book necessarily for like doing that. So i'm really glad to hear you bring it up because that sort of stood out to me is sort of like well that might have a part to play because again like who's owning that data. That's really what gdp are and see cpa a really getting in which is okay. Well google has all this data on you and facebook has all this data on you and sort of like to. What extent are they allowed you. And and by the way is even as like apple does what they're doing was sort of browser level privacy to combat that they're already like facebook is already working behind the scenes to basically create a server to server a pi call where actively encouraging brands who advertise with them to pass email addresses and phone numbers as part of the data that they went through. And it's like whoa. Whoa whoa like you you want. What and then. In addition to that you now have potentially evidence. in december. there was the lawsuit that was filed by the state of texas against google. Whether seems to be even potential collusion between facebook and google. If this is actually true. I guess alleged collusion on price-fixing with what's called header bidding which is basically. You know not to get into too many weeds. But you know you kind of alluded to this. Which is publishers. were basically Give me the best price for this advertising inventory that i could sell it in the header of the pages at loads. There's an auction going on. Google and facebook basically agreed to basically split the difference in not drive the price up on each other right. Yeah and i think it's it's it's really interesting seeing regulators wrangle with some of these problems. Because like i mean the adequate system is very wonky. right and it's it's. I think it's exactly the kind of thing that most talking about right. Which is like it's a case where regulators are trying to like. Get up with everything that's been happening in this ecosystem. I'm and i think they. They are doing pretty good. So far. Right i mean. I think like the complaints that were launched are pretty informed right and certainly the collusion case. If proven is like a really big deal that i think it's also really interesting seeing. I mentioned this before the recording started. But the ftc basically put out a informational request a bunch social media companies and thought it was the one of the most interesting things right. Is that. The ftc is is extensively a privacy regulator. It's really interested. In what data. These companies have on consumers but hidden questionnaire was actually a long set of questions about all the inaccurate information they have. I do think that like these. This relationship is sort of between privacy and the effectiveness of ads in are tied in is pretty complex ways. And i think it's it's gonna lead to some really interesting conversations because traditionally it's been they have all the data and that's why we should be worried. I guess in some ways. My book argues like they have all the data but maybe we should be worried not necessarily because it gives them you know unique persuasive power but because of all the other problems that creates in the marketplace. Which which is i mean. That's you take the social dilemma. And how so many of the social media companies kind of stumbled in or followed the lead of facebook. That had no idea they were going to become you know. All of their revenue basically being advertising and so clearly no no plan on the the route they went but then you so many of these kind of shadow industries. I tried to explain to people like you know. Every time you click through on the lake. One hundred twenty celebrity couples who've been together forever. You'd never believe in just that user experience that is so painful but is because it is that it is that ecosystem it is all those transactions just impressions being bought by intermediaries to resell impressions. And like that that to me. Seems like the clearest evidence that this is clearly broken you have you have junk content that is actually paying for advertising so that it can get people where it can have more impressions that it can. It can resell. And there's so much money sloshing around in that area that when it does come to regulation policy changes it does feel like a pretty tough row to hoe when there are going to be a lot of dollars pushing back saying yeah. This is really a problem but go fix another part of the problem. Don't come after the. Dsp technology is totally fine. Go chase the bats you know or the that that just feels like the struggle is that it's gonna be kinda whack a mole with with point solutions that will have people seeing dollar signs to to work around whatever point solutions get get regulated or per put forth. Yeah and i think ultimately this this may end up becoming a conversation around sort of a activists strategy almost like a way to think about it right which is like what are the kinds of evidence which will cause the biggest advertisers to back out of the ecosystem and and i think that's ultimately going to be the thing that will really reshape the market. Just because i agree right like we very blunt instruments when it comes to regulation with very blunt instruments when it comes to public opinion. But the minute you know. Proctor and gamble is pulling millions of dollars out of ecosystem. I think it does start to create incentives that are that are moving in a better direction. I don't think it's a silver bullet by any measure will. But that i mean you mentioned the png in that that was kind of a multi. Were pulling our dollars out and everybody was like. This is big and it's bold and it's an it's right and a couple other large companies have done it but it it seems why is that not really gotten traction is it. Is it because there are so many forces saying we don't want to. We don't want to look too closely in find out. That's right we can just say. Oh that's p. and g. their massive. You know we're only a hundred million dollar company so this doesn't apply because i was like two or three years ago. True the tea and we started saying that right. Yeah and i think that's that's right. Yeah exactly and it may just be you know one of the most interesting things about financial bubbles right if you study the history of them. Is that like the kind of thing that sort of triggers the stampede out of market is not always like the biggest advertiser moving out. Right and yeah. I think i don't know tim. I think like suggests to me at least that let like that. The the incentives are kind of pretty strong here to kind of keep the ball rolling because because the point which you have these really big advertisers moving out. it doesn't kinda create cascade Are left wondering kind of like what does rent. I have a very odd question. And i'm going no one austria this in any other or but it's something i couldn't help thinking about as i was reading your bulk where you really loud lay the foundation when you start talking about like when google started they you know. The percentage of revenue coming from advertising. I think he said it was seventeen percent. But don't quote and now obviously it's like their main revenue stream in no anticipated that you've obviously spent so much time and energy and i think you ride about this problem so incredibly well. Have you seen those early indicators that were somehow setting ourselves up for failure in another new space that perhaps were only just starting to see those signs of and i think yeah. I don't know if that's something that you you've given thought to. But i couldn't help trying to think of like all. I wonder if there are other situations where if we look closely enough. We could see that they might become problematic like advertising. How sure i mean. I think that you know. I think the answer. That question is in some ways. Advertising has become the like business model hammer for every nail is the way i put it essentially like programmatic. Advertising has been like just this pure capitalist rocket fuel intern businesses into a programmatic advertising business. You're doing great. And i do think that's the case right. As you see you know people you know being like okay. Searches over display his dominated. There's this increased press to basically say. Can we get programmatic advertising into other channels right expanded into as many corners as possible. And i guess part of my worries that it kind of like it it it. It sort of spreads the infection. If you will that it like it actually creates these pathologies in entirely new media channels. That may have not had these problems before. I mean one example which i think is large in terms of market size but is near and dear to my heart is like the world the podcasting. Which is that like podcasts. Have run on a very old school ad model. Is there a push right now to make them programmatic like foreshore and the part of the problem is that the idea is like okay but you also want all of the kind of like market warping incentives that are created by introducing that as sort of your your life stream for your your economy and so i think that that those are kind of like the new frontiers. I'm looking at but he's large kind of like empire programmatic advertising. I mean i just for us. The question is about how much money do you think we could make. Kind of course facing beautiful young ziprecruiter brought to you by smacking a bank subscription service of the month. Whatever i mean. It's not in the book. But it's a it's a feces. I've been playing around with a little bit. Which is like is there kind of like a an optimal amount of data you want in a marketplace before it becomes terrible right which is like okay imagine a world where like basically like you have new information about your readers. Well you're kinda just flying by the seat pants. Maybe you produce lots of stuff. They don't actually like right. And then you have a little bit more data and you're like okay. Well yeah. I can calibrate stuff that they like. And that's actually a good place to be. Maybe we're kind of there for for podcast right now but then. Eventually you like have like the dashboard up on your office. And you're like does this as many click views as our view count as other posts and that entries all sorts of terrible incentives to be like. Yeah what maximizes that metric and so this progression right which is like visit which the data becomes so granular that actually produces all of these negative effects on the quality of the work. And so i don't know just kind of a vague armchair theory at the moment. I like it. I wish my vague armchair theories were. I wish my well thought out warm series were like twenty percent of that. But you can. You can actually see large corporate interests jockeying into position for the future. You're describing tim on podcasting like ossified with all the moves they've made in buying a number of companies and then they made that massive investment to i don't know if it's a choir but basically like acquire the joe rogan podcast which is like i guess a really popular podcast as so like it's it's coming right. 'cause everybody sort of like we presume the algorithm. We'll put our weight on the stone. Once it starts rolling will reap the benefits. I ran across an article. I think it might have been on bloomberg or somewhere by. I can't remember but something around. Black rock as private equity company was exploring as they acquire companies in private equity packaging and selling their data as another asset to basically recoup the investment. They're making in the company and our just like okay. So that's that's another horizon we haven't really gotten into you know as a society sort of like. Yeah we're just gonna have corporate raiders now coming in and being like Here's some data. Who wants who wants it. Yeah for sure. And i think it's a disturbing thing i i think. This is a story that happened. We're not radio shack. Went out of business in the us. Right which is basically the it turns out that like one of the big assets they sold in a bankruptcy was there enormous data set on american consumers. Yeah yeah and. I was talking to a friend the other day about like there's also a very vibrant data ecosystem between the ad economy sort of political advertisers and churches in providing data. So i think. Do i do think that like the co system creates all these interesting links between you know sort organizations that otherwise wouldn't have reasons to talk just because if something becomes profitable to mind you know certain types of data that that otherwise you know in the past. Wouldn't it be considered nasa all. Yeah i mean it's it's definitely sort of a time in which advertising is like one piece of this but it's it's spreading everywhere which is probably why we need a law about it. I i will say this like. I've often maintained your book kind of useful to me in this. Which was. I've often said of the analytic space like a lot of shenanigans happened because of the lack of relative maturity of the space like we haven't been around digital hasn't been around for all that long. It's sort of like yeah. We're all still kind of learning but the juxtaposition of the mortgage crisis to this. I was like with mortgage space. Wasn't immature like it's been going on for a long long time and yet they still manage to work themselves into a pretty intractable situation. And so it's really given me some pause on sort of like the way that i've been mentally framing it up and so for that reason i found it really useful and helpful to to read your book. Corey really created. Yeah i think that's right. I mean again. I think like there's an interesting question about what programmatic advertising should be considered as a subset of 'cause if you consider it as like the latest generation advertising than it is almost as kind of like similar to the mortgage situation mortgages existed for a really long time. And we were like hey actually we could collateralized debt and spy and sell it as an asset and in some ways. I think that's what's happened with advertising right. Which is like we've bought and sold attention for many many years right decades but like only now have we been like. Oh you know what we could do with attention. We could slice it up and sell it at rapid speed in this particular way. And i think that's like producing all these effects like it hasn't been just like eva lucien right. It's actually been kind of revolution and sort of like the impact of the technology it. I can't help but wonder this is what i just keep going down all these crazy pots. Just i don't know why what made marketers except against the black box of programmatic advertising in the first place and light and it does seem like the shift in the industry in the way things are going the privacy. We're moving back to that state again like i. Yeah i kind of have later being like why. Why would they just accept that. Why wouldn't they challenge it. And how can we get them to challenge it more. The thought that is running through my head. I think it's a good question. And i think in some ways like this is an interesting critique that i've been thinking about how to wrestle with right which is the book came out and some people said. Well look people spend a lot of money on it right. They wouldn't spend money on it if it didn't work right like how do you. How do you explain and again. I know there's a little bit of a fallacy there right but i do think we have to address the question of like. Why do people adopt this stuff if it is so faulty right and i do think that like one of them is one of them. Is i think like the midst data right which is like. It's very hard if you're sitting in a room and being like we're either gonna buy this. Old school media channel called the newspaper. And it doesn't have like a lot of data or we can buy this big fancy one that everybody's talking about has all the data right and almost regardless of whether or not the data's faulty or not the fact that they have the data is like pretty penalty. And so i do think that that is one thing for sure. There's a thesis again. That i really wanna right about. That didn't make its way into the book which which is sort of a funny again. Like totally speculative theory that. I love to research some more. Which is that. In the early days of banner advertising the click through rate was forty four percent right and now it's more like point zero one percent right so you basically had in thirty years. A hundred fold decrease in the effectiveness of ads channel. One theory about it though is like maybe the reason we pay attention to ads. That they're novel their new. That's why we look at them so imagine like the billboard ever was put up where people like driving by and they're like wow this guy on that billboard told me to smoke cigarettes i should go buy some cigarettes and then over time. We just got used to as a society and the effectiveness declines. And so there's a erie. Which is the early on online. Advertising really really effective but it had nothing to do with the data had everything to do with the fact that it was new. And so we just happen to pay. And so now. Historically were now like banners and searcher now kind of becoming the next billboards right and there's almost no way to recover but it certainly explains by early on. Advertisers would be willing to go to this new channel because in the early days it is actually in fact that much better right but it has to do with data algae but it was a dual it was not only was it was novelty so therefore had more attention but the people who were doing it were the ones that were like direct response digital advertising. 'cause i commented on admitted tweeted or posted somewhere about your book and somebody did chime in. And they're like why every time we run advertising. We get results. And i'm like yeah if you're if you're a retailer and you're selling shoes and you're buying paid search for those shoes. I sure like an and you. Kind of quantify from alas click but to me part of what happened is that will that became. Part of the mythology is that everybody can do it. Oh you're selling pet food. You're selling boring boring old pet food you gotta be in digital too so it's to me. It's this marketers are somewhat lemmings. They had been beaten up for years about not being able to quantify the impact of their investments. Somebody came along the pied piper of ad tech came along with a story. And they're like we will happily follow that out and now we've got numbers that we can point to. And when you combine that. I mean i loved made the point that it's kind of a steadily decreasing effectiveness. But nobody's really watching that sort of trend of effectiveness. They're saying well you know we didn't get quite the click through rate that we got Last year but you know what extra why. It's noise in the data. And you know they don't necessarily look and they don't have a constant way of measuring things are changing so much new channels to advertise on. They can't even see a truly long-term trend recognize that they're spending more to chase. Celeste and they're trying to do it for everything. Not just kind of a direct response direct cell where it would actually work. Yeah and i think this is connected to your positi point. Like one of the ironies is that we have a lot more data about like a given ad. But we have a lot like it's basically no-man's-land in terms of trying to figure out how the market as a whole is evolving right. And so we're kind of like like really really deep transparency but in some ways it's extremely narrow and that is a big problem trying to get to the bottom of what's actually going on so much more data but we know less. Yeah ironically right as this and as marketers will end up chasing channels right so this week. It's tiktok next week. It's whatever is going to be up next. i think we do. Also i mean this is very natural but i do think we suffer from a bias of like you know we hear about the success stories right but we don't really could measure of like all of the failures. Yep so everybody can point to enact rats work and i i agree. There are situations where ads work right. The question is is that the that the outlier right. Yep yeah this is such a great topic and we do have to start to wrap up. But i mean i think all three of us. Tim really got a lot reading the book. And the book is the subprime attention crisis and I think you get the official. Podcast recommend here from the team. Really nice job. Thank you so much for writing it. Thanks for coming on the show. I wanna throw in just to the book is it's like one hundred and forty pages of content. Got a bunch of it is both super well researched. It is not a lengthy read like it sounds like. Oh my god. Is this going to be some super dense and like i. I'm still kind of blown away with how you manage to to pack the pieces together and have i. Don't i don't know how you you seem like one of the people who maybe just doesn't ever sleep but for like i really do think people should i. This is not a book that takes a long time to read and it is so informed so really formative thank you you you mentioned flash boys early. The book by michael lewis and as i was reading and i was like. Yeah we need a character through this thing maybe virgin to is like the michael lewis treatment. Hollywood adaptation of this. Yeah that's right to pay like the main character. I think seth rogan will be ready for a serious role you know and like anyways. Okay we do have to start to wrap one thing we love to do on. The show is the last call. We just go around the horn. We share something of interest to you. Think might be interesting to our listeners. Tim wong year our guest. You have less call you like to share Sure i'll i'll plug a a weird cy project that i've been working on for the last year or so. I don't know how many of the listeners are based in the us. But i i run a small project. The trade journal cooperative. You know one of the things. I'm really a big fan of is obscure trade journals and this is a quarterly subscription. Service that sends you into an obscure trade journal once a quarter So previous issues have included elevator world. Which is the magazine of the elevator and escalator industry. Next call themselves the whole transportation industry which is rich and last year. we basically. Yeah unless you recovered. What magicians the most recent one was private investigators. So if reading those magazines gets you interested. I'll just plug that projects like kind of like you're the chuck of of of of trade journals so instead of getting your wind subscription. you're getting. You're getting scared trade journals. It's something like that. You make a video each each time. One goes out where you is now. Yeah i really. Should i really should. That's awesome thank you for sharing that. That's definitely gonna take a look at that. So what about you you have less call you wanna share. I'm a request. And then i have lost coal so the request is one of the things that i did reading this book is. I tried to remember the last five ads. Aycell and i didn't have a fricken clue. And then and as i became aware trying to i i just did it of like what do i think. Philosophi- ads were. I had no idea. And then even when i tried to flip my awareness to like try and recall the next five i d say i still really struggles So i just feel like it's really interesting. Exercise particularly for data analyst trying to play around with and be like. Oh here's the stating that you know. We spend all of our lives trying to measure. And yet we can't recall the cells. The other thing. I came across something really bizarre. But i really enjoyed reading about it so i don't even remember how i stumbled on it but it was. It's called auction theory. And there's two stanford. Economists robert wilson and paul milgram. I think they actually have won the nobel prize now for their work. It was bbc podcast more or less behind the stats auction theory. That i somehow ended up listening to randomly. And i just found it really fascinating and the reason i found it so fascinating because story ah all properties pretty much going to auction. We don't normally like make someone an offer it's like they auction everything to try and get highest prices and i just found. This podcast was really fascinating. How it told about the whole idea of like you have a mass auction and how everyone actually ends up better off anyway. If auctions your wasn't wasn't part of the part of the the the winner's curse i don't know if they were the winner's curse but isn't that part of auction theory is like when when governments that have adopted auctions for like for contracts that they're like we awarded the second rose price not the lowest. Because if you go to the extreme the person who actually They told about the example of the like telecommunications band way than how you auction that often everyone actually ends up getting what they need But i don't remember the winner's curse. Maybe i'll have to do more rating but in the winter was well. It is part of action. I don't know said anyway. Does i need to clearly do more reading. But it's a fascinating topic to the quintessential analysts. Tim who were talk talking. Well so i was. I almost thought we were going to wind up hitting my last call while we were talking so so one. I completely missed that morning. Console did a whole special report last year on podcasts and it is like a series of different. A lot of it went into different. You know morning console. They're always kind of collecting data and doing surveys. So it has a whole bunch of different Articles where they kind of dug into some of the being. The payment model for podcasts. Being advertising for podcasts. So it's just a very interesting. I haven't worked through all of the articles in it but it's very well curated set of articles about different aspects of podcasting. But i did read one talking about the effectiveness of ads and it was. It was talking about how much higher the example used was was from. Could media which free podcasts. That i listen to every week or out of crooked media in those are hosts that actually have have a whole banter unscripted so like the multi touch moment that we used to have and it leads off with the examples of john lovett. Don favreau and tommy vitor on that so my my second part of my last call is to actually recommend just egg which was one of the the mung bean based egg substitute. That they plugged in. I did actually go out and buy some. And i was delighted i do eat. We eat a lot of eggs. And i was like okay. They're just bantering about this. Like these really are ex substitute and they really work. So i thought i'd like to add and help out with pod save america's advertising podcast advertising impact. I don't have a website with a special code to go to so their their measurement may be screwed but as going to say good luck on the attribution with that one. Yeah what's yours michael. Well okay so mo- takata chime in on your observation literally the day before we recorded this kind of record chosen advance. Twitter went crazy with this speculation about specific advertisement. That was a bit cheeky. Let's say that a lot of people ran across in a like vice even didn't article on it like today which is basically like digging into like. Why's everyone seeing this ad right now. And where's it coming from and so it's just sort of like how how timely so anyways. So meyer you okay. So as i was researching for the show. I got interested in who published this book and so i was looking at the publisher and ran across. It was sort of a joint publishing effort between i guess sort of an imprint of macmillan and a group called logic and then i was like googling that to figure out what the heck that was turns out. It's a little magazine called logic where they've kind of taken a stand of we're gonna write about technology but we're going to write about. It really thoughtfully it really slowly and on paper and so i subscribed an umbrella looking forward to get some episodes some of their of their stuff and it looks pretty neat so you know following threads so logic magazine kind of nifty looking forward to only published like three times a year so okay. I've sure you've been listening. And he'd been thinking. Wow this is a crazy topic. How do i find out more well. Here's a cool thing. You can actually follow tim wong on twitter. He's at tim h. w. a. n. g. Tim wonk on twitter. So you can follow him there and you can also reach out to us on the measure slack or on are linked in group. And we'd love to hear your thoughts and questions about the show's topic as always Show would not be possible without our inimitable producer. Josh crowhurst doing what he does behind the scenes to make these shows reality. So thank you very much josh. And lastly a. Tim thank you so much for taking the time to write the book. Come on the show today. been really pleasure having you. Thank you so much. Yeah this is great. Yeah thanks me on the show. Awesome and i know that no matter where you are in this ecosystem that sometimes gets are goat. You know that both of my co hosts and i all agree should keep it. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to join the conversation on twitter or in the measure slack. We welcome your comments and questions visit us on the web at analytics our dot. Io or on twitter at analytics. Our show smart guys wanted to fit in so they made up a term analytic. Don't work oh my god. What the book does that even like this year. I haven't seen anyone. That's been very strange. Where's that started. He spend the week from how you have heard chris. Mrs cancelled it. What do you mean. Christmas is cancelled. I didn't think that was a legislative. Yeah we've got dr fauci here in the united states telling kids santa's been news totally cool unlike. Thanks dr fauci team awkward. If i really exacerbated and i'm like going team it's definitely the other team sim wilson is going to ask you. You will get asked a four part question at some point today. bring it on. So y- i'm sure you can handle it bringing on if you wish part one from two three and four sometimes larry is. That's very team. Okay i like to call out was actually. I was not the one talking over either. One of you talked over each other started talking. I so i don't know how that flag and collateralized digital advertising mouthful sorry we do a little takeoff at the end goes in the updates on. I've watched that one. That's okay because that'll go in. The out takes sue.

google tim facebook michael Tim long Times washington post Tim hi new york tim wilson rube goldberg wall street journal harvard atlantic ai Wilson Tim new york city edwards
How to Fix Social Media

Radio Atlantic

53:31 min | 2 years ago

How to Fix Social Media

"Twenty was a rough year for some of us the already angry medium of the offline world confused, even angrier on social media after the early promise of digital communities uniting the world, many of them have become digital diss Unity's instead on this week's show. Can we make our socialites positive again? If so how this is radio Atlantic. Happy new year listeners. Welcome to the first radio Atlantic of the year. I am once again that Thomson executive editor of the Atlantic. And I have got if you surprises in store for you this episode and let me get right to the first my guest, Alexis magical, Atlantic staff writer, and one of the world's smartest writers and thinkers on the past in future of technology, minster magical. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me met. So we are convene today to talk about are problematic platforms. Maybe first and foremost Twitter possibly because it's the one that I use the most. But I think the discussion that I wanna have with you. Alexis encompasses more than just Twitter. I think it's Facebook it's YouTube net flicks, possibly all of the technological things that we currently call platforms and one of the reasons I'm excited to have this conversation with you, Alexis magical is your particular history with technology. I remember that moment when you came from wired after covering technology is a reporter and writer for wired and started the Atlantic tech section here. I was not yet working at the Atlantic. I was then merely a happy joyous customer of the Atlantic work. And I remember the moment the tech channel started. And it was. Like this totally different approach to covering technology. And remember how exciting that was this was in the blogging era. And so a lot of the big then outlets that were covering tack or without of his like tech coverage vehicles were like tech crunch and Gizmodo and and wired, of course. And you brought this sense ability that totally fused the idea of technology with the idea of the Atlantic. Which was you really infused the coverage that you assigned and ran and wrote on the site with this deep sense of history, and I really appreciated that lens all at once. It felt like before you came to the Atlantic tech. A lot of the technology coverage that I had access to was coverage really of things that were being made and the coverage the lens that you brought to our technology coverage at that moment was. Sort of more. How things have gotten made over time. And it felt like that lens was deeply infused by the fact that you had just finished a rating publishing and publicizing your book powering the dream history of green technology in America, and you would dive into the history of our green clean energy future. Going back to the nineteenth century, right? And it felt like you were so rooted in that long expanse of history that by the time, you got here and started running our coverage of technology, you were able to cover these stories appropriately. As though the new things that we invent the new tools are not departures from the long record of the technology that we've made, but actually just part of that long record that they're often just Evelyn's of the ways that we've been making tools in the tools that we've been making for a long time is that fair. Death totally fair. I mean, you know, what happens I think with any book project, and particularly one like that that covered so many periods of history is you end up kind of having to go deep into not just the history of a particular kind of technology, but like sort of all technology, and so I was really immersed in this field academic field. Science and technology studies. And a lot of that field is devoted to not like sort of deconstruction, like a train doesn't exist. But sort of what are the possibilities that exist? For putting a machine on a track and moving around like if you look at the German railroad system that develops the nineteenth century versus the American railroad system that develops in the nineteenth century like what do we learn does? It train always looked like the train that we saw in the transcontinental railroad or can it look like a bunch of different things can different configurations of society economics and technical possibility generate a bunch of different outcomes, or in or is there really just one path are things more deterministic than it sounds, and you know, in my book, like the big example of this is more around the internal combustion engine, and the idea that the energy density of petroleum products is just so good that it makes it impressive impossible to imagine a world in which electric vehicles one in the late nineteenth century. On the other hand, it there were attempts to build other kinds of systems that didn't require the kinds of road networks and infrastructures of mobility that we did build around the car. And so, you know, I think just as a small example, like literally everything in the world like every human made thing you can tell certain stories like that around. And that is what scholars have been doing. And when I showed up at the Atlantic. I was like bursting with thousands of those stories which I had been squirreling away when I couldn't write about them because I was working on a book. And I think that that style. Was really useful? At that time when social media companies had the mantle of progress, so firmly upon their shoulders, and it allowed me think about other types of technologies that have a -ssume that kind of mantle whether it was radio whether it was the personal computer in the nineteen eighties. Whether it was nuclear technology in the nineteen fifties. And to kind of just peel away chip away some solvent on the mantle progress and see what was underneath. And I think that's why a lot of our coverage of the platforms early on was more complex than. Oh. This is great. It gives everyone voice. Yeah. I think one of the things that is interesting about this moment is Zora in this kind of epic backlash moment against almost anything that we have. Come to call a platform, right Amazon. Netflix YouTube, Google Twitter Facebook, all of them have come under this massive horde of criticism because these feel in some ways, I think to some users and critics of the services like shortsighted profit driven attention grubbing advertising owned machines for stealing people's attention from them that fair characterization of the backlash. Yeah. As well, as you know, inciting violence or amping up social antisocial tendencies, destabilizing democratic structures and destroying valuable institutions without adequately replacing them. Yeah. I you know, there's a there's kind of a litany of things that that get can be recited. But I. Agree that the backlash in for most people. I actually think the backlash is more personal and psychological than it is sociological, but people can attack freely myself included between those two levels of analysis. Like, how does this make me feel versus what is doing to the world? Yeah. Now, I have a question for you are the criticisms that we're applying technology actually displaced criticisms of society, you know, how there's this thing with like the internet where when the internet was becoming a popular thing. A lot of the criticisms that people applied to it where like the same criticisms that Neil postman, the cultural critic and author of the book amusing ourselves to death proced- d- would happen with the population of television that it was this hugely visual medium that. Had certain tendencies and wants. And that those tendencies wants could be really destructive to society. Does it feel like we're in a sort of similar place with the platforms, and what we call them? Yeah. I I mean, I think it makes sense that our criticism of the internet would be criticisms of the society, we live in because like these technologies are embedded inside that decide e-. So when the the platforms are the beneficiaries of inequality, and you she that Amazon pays its workers ex. And the CEO is worth y like, of course, that criticism is really criticism about the nature of the American economy and the way that it has distributed money, and then of course, like the capture of government that allows things like that to to to be an invest courage is them in a lot of a lot of thinking. And so I think it makes ton of sense. And I think, you know, the the maybe the implicit criticism within that question is like is that really fair if they're just sort of operating by society's rules like why are we blaming them? And I think that there is maybe that's an unfair statement. But I would actually say that that's that is a fair criticism what's happening in the technological world right now. But it's also that the platforms are of viable place to get some political pressure on the system because by concentrating so much of the economy so much attention so much advertising. So so much of what's happening in public life in one place. They actually create the really great target for activism activists that can say like, let's make this a problem that this is like this. So that leads me I think to to arguments which actually feel pretty exciting to me. Because what you just said, which I totally agree with. I mean, it feels right? Is that in some ways the problems that have been made visible with the platforms are just the problem of all of a sudden two billion people in the world being able to speak to any one of the other two billion people on this on this particular internet world at once like we have problems of people interacting in large crowds on the best of days in like, physical public. And it seems not at all surprising to me that people would have a hard time navigating an environment where there's just like no easy filter between them in like one point nine nine nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine people. Yeah. Can I trust that one too? I mean, I think one thing that I have been it. I've been making a counter argument to myself to kind of just like stress test, you know, and and it kind of goes like this that, you know, we we assume that the problems that result from a thing like Twitter, and I've made arguments like this myself at the structure of like re tweeting on Twitter has particular social outcomes or encourages pretty social outcomes. And so that means that a lot of the decisions the platforms make are really significant and that we should blame them specifically for for a lot of these things. And then, you know, I started to think about a lot of the problems that Facebook was encountering with what's app in different parts of the world. And like what's app, basically is encrypted text messaging. That's it. That's what it is. You know? And it doesn't rely on an advertising model it doesn't. It doesn't do the same things with data that Facebook Instagram. Do it doesn't have the same kind of intentionally public and public swing features of a Twitter like it just has none of the same features. And yet like all the same criticisms are being leveled against what's up as I started to think to myself like well, does that just mean like to your point that this is just the we're seeing essentially the pollution extra analogies like bad stuff that comes with more fuel being connected. And if you go back. And you look at what people were saying when SMS sorted to roll out when text messaging started to to to become a mainstream tool if not totally ubiquitous particularly in other parts of the world what we find is that people were making the same criticisms of SMS. And I think what that has pushed me back the position that has pushed me into is thinking like, yes, we should make these specific critiques. But I think we also need to consider this broad idea that like are we willing to throw out the level of connective that we have. And if we're not willing to throw it out for ourselves. Should we be encouraging companies to make that kind of connective less available in other places in the world, which is an argument to be are making. So it's it's a really really interesting thing that it I feel like there's a baby bathwater kind of. I prefer to use the term infant infant liquid juice. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. It's really I I'm like. I I've been I found myself in a very uncomfortable place around this. I would say over the last six months, and I don't feel fully resolved about it. But it's something that I feel like my mind, I can feel my mind trying to find a new orientation towards the set of problems as a result of kind of this line of thinking and thinking about how people thought about SMS. Well, let's pause and come back to explore that new line of thinking after this message. Want to support the Atlantic and keep up with their journalism throughout the year thin consider becoming a subscriber to the Atlantic magazine available in both digital and print formats, plus radio Atlantic listeners. Get a special fifteen percent discount to learn more go to the Atlantic dot com slash radio. Subscribe. What is continue with the completely unoriginal insertion of advertising before this next phase of our conversation Alexis, I want to make a straight up argument about technology and the way that it's interacting with society at this moment, and I wanted to law Laba premise at your way. So can we stipulate that the making of any tool is actually collaborative exercise between the people who design that tool the people who pay for that tool and the people who primarily use it that fair? So like Twitter is made in part by the company writer incorporated in part by the companies that advertise on Twitter and the market the Twitter's embedded in and also, of course, the scads and scads of people who use Twitter, and the thing that I really wanted to ask you Alexis was who do you think actually has the most power in this equation and? And before you answer, I want to confess that have got a side in this argument. And I think my answer is that users that users might have the most power in this equation that both collectively on that scale and individually. I think that we users might have more power to shape the platforms that we the us then we give ourselves credit for. But I want to leave that argument there and ask your just first thoughts to that. Well, I think that there's a question of sort of like Layton in actual power. I think that the there's probably more latent power in the user's like if all the users started to do a certain thing than that could work. I think that when we think about this though, when you think about kind of question of organization, and whether there is meaningful organization between Twitter users to act on their own behalf or not. And I think the answer to that is no. And that. That there isn't. There aren't really means. There's no mechanisms for for Twitter users to really exert power. And you know, we left out another group, which shareholders, and if people who own the company who are also different from the management. I, and I would say in some ways that would be the group that I tend to think is could exert the most power both in the sense that they have large amounts of late power. And they actually have a means for doing it on the other hand, they don't wouldn't know what to do. I mean, I think the main problem that we have here. Matt is that no one knows what to do to fix these problems? And I actually think that includes the companies and the users now what you've described to me sounds like a basic. Almost geopolitical governance problem. And it sounds not at all dissimilar from the problems that we talk about every day about America and its design and some of the places where it's designed might be actually democratically deeply dissatisfying to many of its shall we say users that the government of the platforms feels deeply highly imperfect. And there's no unlike the American government, there are fewer, or at least there are less democratic institutions through which users might change that governance in government structure, but -solutely I mean, like this guy put one more thing, you know, their conversation with a gun in Tim Wong, and the guy who's the former head of SEI, you this service employees union, and your when that Tim said was that you know, because. Guy was basically like it's amazing like Uber, and lift and all of these companies have actually concentrate done half, the work of organizing force by getting all these people onto these platforms as workers, right? Like were talking lift drivers or drivers whatever they are. And he's like this is like what like a union organisers? The best target ever you organize this one shop, and you got two million people, you know. And I and I take that as an interesting point. Tim's point though, was that in order for that to happen. People have to conceive of themselves as a public, or as in this case, you they have to conceive themselves as a as a as a unit as having some form of solidarity or cohesion or just like to an identity as workers, and I've done a lot of work around the ports and dockworkers, and like the culture of dock working. Over many decades lent itself to this incredibly dense social network that was very remains a very powerful organizing tool, and I think what you look at with something like Twitter is like there's just nothing like that, you know, and they're never has been on any platform. There have been little pushes here. And there, you know, like, oh, let's not formalize retrieve. I mean, if I was part of, you know, some of these like organizing efforts, but they all came to nothing more or less, and I think we need to recognize that, you know. Well, so I wanted to actually narrow down from this collective we that we've been speaking in this collectively of users and speak on that personal skill. You were talking about before because I've been trying this experiment on Twitter, and it has been fascinating to me. And I wanted to ask you about it. And what it meant have you heard about this experiment that I've been doing I've been calling break the ratio. So you know, there's this. Dominant twitter. I don't know who I invented the term to get ratio. But the term generally refers to a moment when a Twitter mob has descended upon someone who has tweeted something that the Twitter mob. Does not like so the way that you can identify a tweet that has been deemed bad by the NRP of Twitter is you count the number of replies to the tweet. And if the number of replies to the tweet exceed I believe the collective number of lakes and re tweets to the tweet, then the tweet has gotten quote unquote ratio that means that the quasi. I an archaic. Pseudo-democratic entity of Twitter has determined that the ratio tweet is a bag very getting booed off stage, basically getting off stage by the broad public. That is Twitter. So I announced to my followers on Twitter rate at the start of the year that I wanted to try an experiment called break the ratio and the rules. I told my followers are these. I'm gonna speak my truth. I'm gonna go speak things that I am have on my mind into Twitter, and anyone who follows me on Twitter, of course, may hear them. And anyone may like any other tweet on Twitter, re tweet them my Twitter feed as public it's Adam Thomas, I will do my thing on Twitter as I have, however to the followers who want to participate in this break, the ratio experiment. I asked them not to like or retweeted anything that spoke to them anything that that they felt in any way touched by whether positively or negatively I said, please do not like or tweet those things if anything that I say on Twitter moves you. I asked just reply to me just reply to that tweet. You're intentionally Ray showing yourself couldn't. So I asked people to ratio me on Twitter and. Alexis. It has been years since I had the experience of not only being delighted to pull up Twitter, but actually waiting for people to tweet things toward me. The for the past several years. My experience of Twitter has been this crazy making experience just pulling it up and seeing thousands of people very few of whom in decreasing number of whom I had any idea of the context for just saying random things into this disorienting bog, and I found myself increasingly just not liking that I found myself wanting a platform where if someone had something to say about something I said, they would say to me. So they would ratio me. And the most extraordinary thing happened. When I ask people to ratio, my tweets, I found myself having conversations on Twitter like with people with many of whom people that I know some of whom were people that I didn't know, but who had intelligent and interesting things to tell me. And then I found myself delighted by the prospect of pulling up Twitter. And seeing all of these replies things, I gave my followers a promise that if a tweet was ratio that I would try to respond to that tweet. I think I promised to respond to that tweet in part. So what that looks like for me is when I I have like eliminated the quote, unquote, home feed of Twitter, I have eliminated every other feed that is not either a reply to a tweet that I have made. Or a mention of a tweet that I have made those are the two things that I see when I when I pull up the platform, and all of a sudden that feels like this tiny corner of Twitter is just speaking to me, and I can talk back to them. And it's like, we've got our secret little club. I mean, of course, by telling radio Atlantic listeners, I'm telling them that this club exists somewhere. But it has been a beautiful few days. I mean a week. Plus, we're not that far into the new year. It's been a beautiful little while just like hearing from people their thoughts about my thoughts. And some of those thoughts are negative in some of those are positive, and they're like human scale thoughts. And I know that somewhere outside of this. Someone might be like re tweeting the things that I say, but I don't see any of that anymore. And I don't really care in some ways. How far my words travel into the fog. I just increasingly care more and more about who's talking to me, and what how respectfully and lovingly intelligently. I might respond back to them. I'm curious. What you think of that experiment? Yeah. Well, you know, it's really an interesting question, which is how can we live with these technologies? Even if we sort of like, you know, play them against the grain or or play them in a way that is, you know, unusual kind of reminds me of like mutual friend, Robin Sloan who went into this video game, and in instead of you know, there's no way to talk to people. So he would just sort of like try and create alliances in a game for which there is no affords for an alliance. To spoil the sport night. Game on the Atlantic about it. It's great awesome, strain, the Atlantic about it. We will link to the show. It's the one rule of fort night. Is that when you get dropped into the game? You gotta go find the nearest player and start killing them, basically. Right. And so Robin decided he wanted to basically play the peaceful version, of course night or at least collaborative version, and he had a whole experience that was quite wonderful. Of course, I hear him playing fortnight sometimes because we share an office, and he's just in their killing people now. So you may that may that may foreshadow what I'm about to say, which is that I think that we sometimes I think it's like a we underestimate particularly in this era. Which reference another book called age of fracture. Which historians take on sort of how society became considered to be a bunch of little particles making independent decisions on a lot of in a lot of realms of life. Not just the market, but like sort of market thinking extended to like, lots of other things I and to me it's kinda like that. Like sure could you have your own personal socialism within like a capitalist system. Could you do, you know? You do that. You know, what I mean like, you could totally do that. But I, but I I don't know how that translates. In two greater change. And that may be a reflection of my own cynicism. But I also think it's a reflection of how powerful I think the rails. Are you know, and that even if you can get off them for a second like these things are very well established. I mean, I my own personal Twitter experiment began like six months ago when I sensuously switched to kind of read only and only article so I use it to called nuzzle. And I basically just read stories that people tweet and then around those stories I'll sometimes read the tweets because it's tool captured those as well, so I'm not like gone from Twitter, but I don't tweet anymore. And I and I use it as a tool for like seeing what people are talking about. And how they're talking about it. So I'll tell you. I that makes me a little sad. I like many people who kinda came of media age in the air. Era of blogging have missed blogging, right? I don't know if you feel that way. I totally feel that way. I totally miss blogging. I mean, it's not like blogging went anywhere. It's just that it did not persist as a sort of social activity it no longer it no longer felt like a norm. So I was John Rao that fell out of fashion exactly away of writing that you no longer around. I still blog. I mean, sometimes probably not near as, but you know, I still follow several people who blog, and it's still nice. But it still feels like it's like we are making salmon flies in our like little niche artisan antiquarian club together, you know, in a cabin very butcher shop remember shortness, but what was beautiful to me about blogging in the air when that thrived among a subset of. Internet users as a way of a way of engaging with the world was the the notion of this kind of really generous public spirited exchange of ideas that. The internet during the blogging era was just this place where you would go to kind of find misfits who fit like you. And they were talking to you, and you could talk to one another. And if you said interesting things to to each other than than others would say interesting things to you and together collectively in your misfit corner of this big ole internet, you could help each other. Learn things about everything that was sort of the magic of blogging. And I think for me, at least it was why it's why remains so entrenched about that moment in the life of the internet and wonder so much about like how that spirit how I might at least find that spirit again for myself. Yeah. I think when I I agree that my way of using Twitter is sad. Like don't get me wrong. I totally agree that it sad. I think I think a couple of things that collaborative spirit. Became tied up with the distribution of information in a broader sense. So I think one of the things that was so interesting about blogging tied together, both kind of live processing of the internet in time before that had been formalized within social media and within news feeds within specific platforms. But it also became a means of like directing attention around, and those are actually kind of different and also sort of collaboration in the way that you're describing between people kind of figuring out a new way of thinking or talking about the world. And I think one of the problems is that those three things are actually different enterprises that were loosely joined and that came apart, and when you took the distribution part away into social media the rest of it collapsed. One of my observations about the incentives. Put in place for both the platforms, and for in some ways America was that the primary incentive was scale when the platforms were growing, the primary incentive that linked shareholders, and designers, and advertisers. And in many ways users was just keep growing grow as large as you could encompass as many people in the world as you possibly could. Right. Yep. Completely. And there was no parallel incentive to retain intimacy. There was nothing that was fighting for the most ordinary natural human behavior that exists in the world, which is to people seeing when another and talking back and forth. That had no one to advocate for it. Here's how I think of it for myself. And I think your solution to this is is kind of brilliant. I to be totally honest. Like, I don't think you're gonna be able to maintain this very long. But and I think you'll and and I really look forward to looking back on this experiment and seeing if it's if it's possible for you to maintain it. I know that I couldn't do that. And and and the I the real I part of this, and and I will situate this like firmly inside of myself is when I go on. Twitter in Instagram. I experienced like a wide variety of emotions and most of them are negative like, and I think that is the primary driving force behind the sorts of things that I'm doing with my social media not actually like anything that's bigger than that. And and so I think maybe, you know, my sense of anon- collective actually is my is my own sense. You know, my own sense that like as the last ten years gone by on Twitter, kind of the lights the constellation of people who drew me to it have kind of blinked out. And when I look out now, I see. Information more than I see collaboration like icy when I look out now, I basically see a professionalized world, which serves professional purposes for me what I don't see is a community in which I and you like play this role together in part because we're performing on a thing. I mean, not not the collective we you and me like we were on the internet. We're we we're having these conversations it is a fundamental public permanent performance or at least semi permanent. If you do your tweets, it's not permanent. But you know, and that that to me like why am I doing that there? I mean, that's a fundamental question. Like why why are we doing this? Like, why on Twitter why in this place? Like, why can't we do it in a million? So I'm gonna pull you back away from the we for a moment because I can speak to me. No, you why are you me? Why like why? Why am I doing it? Why am I why am I speaking into this particular void? Well, right now, my experience of Twitter is delightful. I am going to Twitter, and I'm having all these tiny little conversations and get them anytime. I want with people who for one reason or another are individuals who something I have said has spoken to. And that experience feels like rediscovering blogging in a way, and I have been so enjoying it in. So delighted to see it persists long as it can that. I hope it doesn't end. And so I'm curious why do you think it will? Because it's just like the cultural norms of the thing will slowly start to creep in. You'll have to do a thing. For work. Someone will be a total asshole. And you'll find yourself kind of burned by that a little bit and step back from it. I do think for work. Someone is total Ansel to me. And I I process it in turn it into part of my social experience all the time. Totally. But I mean within the context of the experiment, like at what point I think what if it's not an experiment. What if it's just the way I used Witter? I. It's kinda like I mean. You may be able to maintain this enchanted circle. I mean, there is a chance right? But like every person who account encounters that fresh has to like be chanted again wasn't waiting while. They're doing this other set of interactions having this other mode of operation in all their other Twitter stuff. And then they step into your enchanted, circle and me, maybe through like a lot of effort and maintenance, and like, here's a the greatest possible example from the blogging era. The tunnel has coats Twitter coats comment section. Yes. Most enchanted, circle maybe ever to exist on the internet, and and it broke down, and it broke down because that it takes work and maintenance takes like a motion intellectual damn near physical labor to keep this thing going, and that's. Communities in life. I do not disagree. I think the question becomes certainly became for him like at what point as as it becomes interesting to people and other people want in on it like, it takes more work as then and it still awesome. It takes more work in you know, and in a community their natural limitations to how things like that go and community organizers notorious for burning out real world. Do you know so many? So I had the experience recently of getting the interview one of the people that I think of as among the greatest community organizers still living felony. Larry, Kramer, you might know his work. He was a co founder of an organization called the game health crisis right at the in the beginning stages of the world beginning to understand what HIV and aids were he then went on to be kicked out of GMAC and found another incredibly successful activist group called act up. Dr Tony Ouchi who was an is incredibly influential figure in the American Medical industry has said that there are like two two eras in American medicine before Larry Kramer, and after Larry Kramer, he's just been that effective at at organizing people. And yet he also has been pretty effective getting kicked out of groups that he's it must be said. But he. He did. In some ways it felt it feels like the problem of community organizing whether in the offline world or in the online world is a problem of scale. There is such a thing as too many people to speak to and to hear from. And that the answer to the problem of scale is that when the conversation grows too large, you remove yourself and find a smaller win that speaks to you more. Does that feel possibly like an answer to you? It does. I mean it does. I I mean, I, you know, I feel like I I'm like rating on your prayed. But I actually have like deep admiration for this impulse that you have to do this, which I feel like, you know, I don't know how well radio Atlantic listeners know, you, but extends far beyond this one, particular experiment. And I. And like any good community organizer. I feel my own basically laziness and lack of willingness to try and change the world around me. And instead, you know, a manakin basic survival within this within this tool, you know. And I think there's one other dynamic that I wanna mention within it, which is that when I'm putting energy into my phone like I'm not reading a book at that time. You know, I'm not like exercising. I'm not just like sitting there with my kids, you know, doing other things, and so the trade off, and this is in part like a defensive myself, the tradeoff here that I am not really willing to make is trying to fix my Twitter experience by putting more energy and time into it. Instead. My thought has been you know, I have a really really the kind of deepen passionate relationship with my block, my literal block, physical block that I live on in Oakland. And like I like putting energy there. You know what I mean? It's different. It's it's hard and weird. And you know, we don't you know, everybody's very different. And, but it's, but it's also amazing in like, there's just so many there's such a community resource to draw there and crucially people have a basic desire to wanna live together. 'cause and be a strong community because we're all they're like the thing of Twitter that so weird is like somebody can come and just strafe you and then just begun, you know, and they and like someone can there is there isn't like an organizing. Function. That says like, hey, you know, what we're all here on this block. If you do something really heinous, you're going to have to see the people you that to the next twenty years or even two months of and I think so I I have been putting energy into basically, the reading the distilled thoughts of other people and engaging with them directly a lot of academic work and a lot of books, and I've been putting a lot of effort into that community blocks. And I recognize that in many ways both things actually may have less impact than trying to do what you're doing. But they feel good to me. Yeah. And I think well, I'm gonna make one more I'm gonna make win last ditch effort to into my little enchanted, circle and through the looking glass, and then I'll get to the credits, but I'm gonna tell you an anecdote that I think will speak to you because I know you a little bit structures magical. So this morning, I went on a run. It was cold. In DC. It's like in the forties and the time I went like six thirty in the morning and the sun hadn't quite risen yet. And I have a reason just been back into a phase of my life, where I'm kind of making more music again, there was once a phase in my life when I made music a lot and on this particular one, I was listening to my own music. And I was having a kind of solitary experience on my run. You know, where D C is not runners place like Minneapolis. Or like, I gather Oakland where you when you run you feel like part of a community of runners. I have run with the community runners in DC, the front runners, and they're awesome. And it is awesome. And I am excited for everyone that I can do with the front runners. But when I'm on a solo run DC run runs do not the DC running communities, not by large feel very communal to me like as I'm running by peop-. People Vedeno log I hear between us is. Like, listen, buddy. I'm on my interval. Can you step to your right? Yeah. Don't don't. Let me ask. And so run can feel like a surprisingly solitary experience. Even when I'm being passed by others and give them a nod or a smile or something like that here in DC. And so I was in this like mood this morning. I was listening to a song that I had made and running to my own rhythm. And so Twitter Cohen into the void. I just stop for a second on a bridge because I have developed a habit of stopping on bridges to take pictures on one side, and then the other and so I stopped for a moment on the bridge. Took my pictures and said on Twitter to my little enchanted, circle, listen to your own music when you run, and if you have no music don't be afraid to make some. And it started tiny little conversation in my chanted circle. It was this moment of communal community in the middle of what felt at that time. Like a lonely space, which was what the internet once was for me. And I do wonder how much agency we as users have to bring that version of the internet back. So let me ask you and more time does that indicate change anything about how you think that this experiment? I think it's I mean, it's lovely. And it really is. I think answer it with like a an antidote of my own which is that. I. Part of me feels very extrinsic -ly directed, you know, that you know, I'd like I like to engage with people, and I like to feel like they're positive energy. You know, like, I feel like I'm and and some part of me has been like, you know, I'd like to be less that way like to be more satisfied with my own. Judgements of myself and what I'm doing in the world. And so I wanna point working story about relation masculinity. And in some of these things, and I ran into this book, which was nineteen fifty team sociologist publishes this book, and it turns out to be huge hit in the selling one point four million copies called the lonely crowd. And they basically argued that Americans had become other directed as opposed to inner directed. And the way the way the sociologist presented. It was was like, hey, this is like just a thing that has happened way. It was received in American culture was as a critique that people. They said, you know, people were using radar instead of their internal gyroscope and people were like, no, I want to be the kind of person using the journal gyroscope, you know, and the example of that that became kind of most well known it was kind of like, oh, the cowboy, you know, and it turns out that like the Marlboro man, you know was. Like, literally created sort of out of this same kind of thought, you know, that being on your own and being like, a rugged individualist was in fact, like the best way to like be a man, which then sent me back to my original premise and made me think like actually maybe particularly in like, a the moment of me to over trying to listen to women's voices and really hear what what they're saying about the experience of being women and experience of being a man as well that like perhaps like inner direction is sort of a trap. And that in fact, the only way that you come to like new understandings like within a communal setting. And that this idea of the internal gyroscope leaves out like who calibrated that thing. Calibrated these judgments that I'm making and how do I know that they're correct? Particularly when you can't embody literally, you can't embody like all the different kinds of experiences that people are having that might be quite different from your own because you know, class power privilege race gender identity. And and so is actually an amazing thing. 'cause I went to this book to find this evidence that like, oh, yeah, I should be like interacted. I should just do these things. And in fact, in ended up convincing me of the opposite thing, which was that listening more to people wasn't that good. And that's one reason why feel kinda okay being in kind of read and listen only mode on Twitter right now. As well. So well fasting now like, I, you know, I love your experiment in part because it is it's feels like such a direct challenge to the my my current approach, and it's kind of an inspiring. And so I wanted to talk, and hence, you're welcome into my chances anytime you'd like. Thanks. Fun now before we in the show this week a little heads up. I'm gonna be stepping away from the hosting seat, which I am currently merely warming for voice who will be quite familiar to our listeners that my friend and colleague, Alex Wagner. So I'm going to do around. Thanks. That's a bit different than usual. And a little Easter egg for you, constant listener who gets to the credits, if you have been a constant listener, you know, that Jeff has tool occasionally indulged talent for verse. He's very good at it. I less so, but I will dare it. Anyway. And Kevin might you. Start theme song. I Kevin Townsend to the best of the best and has spent more time I have hearing my thoughts at his desk, then to Catherine wells producer of pods talent. Staley thanks to the gods. Then the Jeffrey Goldberg Alexander in the crew made this program happened with me back when it was new then the Gianbattista courses music we now here for bringing back to my face win. It'll lates upon ear to one listener Barbara your keep read didn't play. But I keep it to myself into lights me everyday to John ruled that old friend of mine who gave a show its name struck a chord back. Then instill it strikes me just the same time to time. Don't miss me when I'm gone Alex is back next week. And yes, the show goes on to all my friends who listen, and then tell me that they do every show I hosted was to make show for you. Good slow this down at touch, but keep going don't show up. Just now. I am listening or listening deep from week to week. My weakness hearing the things you keep every listen deign to listen to the end news that after these credits say kind or to. A friend for final benediction. I must think Alexis AMRO public reveal nothing. You went said. And so I am alright radio listeners. He'll be back. Same bat time. Same action of next week. See you on the other side. And thank you. Thank you.

Twitter Atlantic Alexis AMRO Facebook America Atlantic tech John Rao YouTube Atlantic magazine Gizmodo Evelyn writer Neil postman Thomson Oakland Amazon staff writer
Survivor Man

Office Ladies

1:07:17 hr | 10 hrs ago

Survivor Man

"I'm jenna fischer. I'm angela kinsey. We were on the office together and we're best friend and now we're doing the ultimate office rewatch podcast just for you each week. We will break down an episode of the office and give exclusive behind the scene stories. That only two people who were there can tell you where the offs ladies. Hi everybody hello. Are you guys ready for this episode. Today survivor man. Do you have your duct tape. Oh boy of do you have your duct tape as ziplock bag full of what were those peanuts. I have so many questions about it pellets. Granola we don't now and maybe a bow knife. Definitely a knife definitely always a knife for survivor man. I forgot to eat breakfast this morning before. We got ready to record this podcast angela. So right before this moment. I ran downstairs. Eight an egg and a half of an apple. It hasn't digested yet. So i feel a little loopy. I feel a little bit. Like i'm in a good space for this episode. I i'm a little bit. Like you know hungry frazzled. Yeah do you just have eggs ready to go. You know i hard. Boil an egg. First thing. When i wake up in the morning i put an egg in my heart boiler. Okay and i just hadn't gotten back to it so yeah. I had an egg ready to go part of my morning process. Things you need to know about jennifer eggs aretz to go. That's right at it to your list. Today is season four episode. Eleven written by steve carell and directed by paul fig Here is a summary. Give it to me. After ryan excludes michael from a corporate wilderness retreat. Michael heads out into the woods for his own survival adventure with nothing but the suit on his back. Dwight secretly keeps watch back at the office. Jim tries to revolutionize the office birthday party system and learns. That michael's job is a lot harder than it looks. No yeah and for those of you really paying attention. Genesis gave us a doe white. Did i did. I skied it. Ski fastback number one. This episode was written by vario and steve corral applause. We love you steve levy. I reached out. Because i wanted to hear a little bit about the inspiration for this episode. Here's what steve told me. He said that he and his wife. Nancy loved this show called survivor man. So steve pitched the idea for this episode because he and nancy were such fans of the real show. What is survivor. man. I never seen the show. I mean i'm guessing the guy's gotta go survive somewhere. Oh angela you're gonna be so happy fastback number two is all about the real survivor man. Show give it to me. It was a canadian. Tv show real life survival expert and filmmaker les stroud in each episode. He would be dropped off in a remote location and he would have to survive up to ten days. He brought little or no food water or equipment except for his camera equipment because he would film himself. There was no camera crew but would he bring like a cup like how does he get water. No lady no equipment. No no utensil. Correct now they did have safety precautions. Like you know in this episode. How do i is kind of watching michael from afar. Yeah there was a support team who monitored the sky from a distance just in case he got attacked by a wild animal or something they were gonna leave him out there to die. I would not be good at that job at watching the man or being the man watching the man. I can't come like you know. I've got to put in my two cents. How would that work explain. Well like maybe he starts to go for a bush or something. He shouldn't be touching. Maybe it's the poisonous bush. I don't know i start going like i. r. I pretend to be a bird but like it would be like no one. How can you watch someone struggle. I'd be horrible at that. Well let me say this. He was allowed to scout and study these areas ahead of time with team of local experts. So he would go. In with a survival plan he would know the local fauna and flora. He would know what things he should eat or shouldn't eat. Something that steve said was that he and nancy notice that the guy was always doing things. Like michael does like turning up stick into a spear like he's gonna go spear an animal but he never actually succeeded in actually killing an animal so stephen. Nancy had a theory that he just really didn't want to kill any animals because he was a really nice guy because he never seemed to actually catch any living food to eat. He was the friendly survivor man. Yeah fastback number. Three is a location breakdown coming at ya. Thanks to fan. Question from catalina rizzi sydney weaver. Jason barra sophia sphere and kate beverage. Where did stephen rain film the forest scenes. I'm gusty los angeles national forest I don't think so. Oh i mean unless the los angeles national forest is at the forty four mile marker on the los angeles crest highway. Because that's where we shot. These scenes were filmed at a picnic. Site called charlton flats and we spent one day shooting all of the forest scenes and that day was. Can i get a kenta pedia from you angela. Because kent pedia gave me this information can took contributing. Thank you so much. You're welcome wednesday. October seventeenth two thousand and seven. That's such a specific and pedia fact. I know so. It was october and that is right when the chill starts to come over los angeles so some of the stuff where michael is like. It's so hot in the day and then it's cool at night. That's actually really accurate for us here in l. a. That was life out here guys. It's like you leave in your like hot and then you're freezing in like four hours. You got to layer. Yeah it's a layering city for sure. Yeah of course our show was set in scranton pennsylvania so it would have been much colder than we depicted at that time in scranton for sure we didn't get the weather right guys we got it wrong. We portrayed a nice. October day in southern california. That's all i got lady. Well this whole episode reminded me of creed bratton. Because you know creeds my neighbor he loves the show alone. it's like a survival of show in. He got josh. And i it. And all i can think about when i watch these shows as a i would never make it not because i probably couldn't hunt and fish but because i get too cold what would do you in. I would get too cold. I think the lack of sleep. Whenever i watched shows like survivor or like people doing extreme camping or survivalist type storylines. I always think about how they're not getting a sound night's sleep and i really need that sleep. I am super cranky. But also i get physical symptoms when i don't sleep enough. I get stomach ache headache. I get real loopy. So i think it would be the lack of sleep that would do me in. I can sleep pretty much anywhere. I think i would figure out sleep. But i would just priest it up or i'd get so cold i would get angry and then i'd quit. I am out of here. Evan called about you guys whereas my heater well. My breakfast is kicking in ange. But i say we take a break and we'll come back to talk about one of my favorite opening scenes of an episode ever. Do you mean super sunburn. Toby super happy sunburn. Toby all right. We'll be back. Have you ever had an incident at your job that you just can't let go of. Maybe you need to talk it out. Oh yeah maybe you need some professional help to just figure it out so you can be more centered. I mean you have to talk those moments out you have to. You'll just keep recycling the moment over and over and beating yourself up. We have a suggestion. We think you should consider reaching out to better help. It's really simple. You fill out a questionnaire to help access your specific needs and better help will match you with your own. Licensed professional. They're pissed you can start communicating with a professional therapist and under forty eight hours. I found therapy very very helpful for me. And identifying and managing my social anxiety office ladies is sponsored by better help and our listeners. Get ten percent off their first month of on light therapy when they visit help dot com slash office ladies visit better h e l p dot com slash office ladies and join over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced better help professional aright angela. I know that. I talked about my own peleton to you. So much that you and josh got a pellet well you guys know. My husband is like mr fitness. Well i'll tell you what ange lee was. The person who really wanted the bike. And i thought well maybe i'll get on it. I don't know from time to time. And then you know what happened. I started writing every day. I know you got super into it. They have these great trainers. Who really keep you motivated. My favorite is cody. Rigsby fixture wigs ladies and the music is great and i just love the bursts of energy that i get. It's very cleansing for me to get on the bike for just twenty minute and then on the bike. Do you know what. I love jenna. I love the scenic rides. I've told you about them yet. I often like share with my mom. My mom we'll be like where are you writing today and i'm in new zealand. Mom it is so gorgeous and you guys that all access membership family plan is for no additional cost so you can really bring this whole workout peleton experience to your whole family guys get started on your peleton go to one peleton dot com to learn more. That's oh n. e. p. l. o. t. o. n. dot com. We are back and here. It is folks. Toby is holding court in the kitchen. I mean he is the most lit up. You will ever see toby. I have to point out something while. Toby is holding court for our background. Catch people at two seconds. You will see the jar of red vines that was in the kitchen for nine seasons. Primo shot it's right behind. Phyllis and i just looked at it. And i started cracking up because i feel like those red vines would survive armageddon social lacked gross. Oh my gosh. you couldn't eat them. They were like sticks. And i remember opening them in season nine and they were the same as season one. It was scary. You know what they should've taken those out into. The woods could use them to build their shelter. I'm a big red vines fan. I have to tell you when. I go to the movies metoo red vines or junior mints. Oh that's so cute. Yeah so toby is chatting with pam oscar phyllis and meredith all about this wilderness retreat that he went on with ryan and some of the other branch managers. We are hanging on his every word. Where lasting and you come to find out in the series of talking heads. That michael was not invited on the wilderness retreat. Three talking heads for the people. Say the same thing. Phyllis toby you. Michael wasn't invited. He wasn't invited. Toby was michael. Wasn't and the smile on. Phyllis his face when she says it is amazing. She's so delighted that michael wasn't invited. There is a delicious talking head that was deleted. It is ryan in his office at corporate. And he's saying how he had this idea for the retreat in corporate. Wouldn't pay for it. And he does that thing where he talks them. Third person whereas like okay ryan fix it got it. Make it about the environment. He says. Make it a green retreat. Then they pay for it and then he goes on to say. No one ever does anything for the environment just to help the environment if someone tells you. They have a green initiative. It's a scam. Got many saying that now that he's like the green wonder kid you know. The green environmentalists that it's going to impress the ladies of the office and he. Purposefully like puts a plastic water bottle and the recycle bin by a group of women. They don't even acknowledge him. It's hilarious well. We had a fan question about this scene from stephanie. Pollen catherine loza. James and anthony battaglia. Paul looks so tan does he have special sunburn makeup on to make it look like toby has been camping. Yes oh yeah. That was very thought out. They did a test on his face. They took pictures. They decide if it was too much or too little. And i remember. They even did his forehead. Jonah like were his hairline yes they did a great great job. It really sells it. It looks real. Well is so stung by this. Oh he's devastated. He's seething he just like can't believe that toby was invited to this. Over him and jenna he starts asking people hypothetically if they would go camping with him. In the deleted scenes he starts with pam in. It's cut out. And i wish it was in pam and jim clearly have two different strategies with michael. 'cause pam is like if michael asks you a hypothetical you always say no because his hypothetical become an actually and she's just say no and then he doesn't make any leeway with you so he moves onto gem but there is a great scene that clearly you and jim kind of work together to avoid michael says. Set up what you're about to listen to you guys. Pam michael's office in. He asks her hypothetically would go camping with him. She's like now so he's gonna move onto jim he's jim. They're at his desk gyms not there but she knows the minute michael's like can you send and dwight dwight's going to be put on the tracking of jim and so she runs to the break room to tell him to like hide it. It's just so hilarious. And here's the clip. Is jim out there now. I didn't here. Dwight michael wants to see you. And i wanna see me something very personal. I would like to just go. Find jim and send him in airplanes. Amman michael has employed dwight to track down on well. Jim michaels office couple minutes. Give or take now jim. Oh my gosh. I love that. How many times was michael looking for jim. And him and pam had this covert thing where she's like twice looking for you. You have five minutes. It's so good but you know. Dwight does find gem right so now. Jim is in michael's office. And michael is asking jim. Hypothetically would you like to go camping. And jim strategy is totally different from pam's gems like always say yes right but then have an excuse. Apparently gyms excuse is always that he's donating blood. Oh i loved. Steve's delivery as michael when he says how many times can person give blood. Jim says is there a limit. I don't know. I remember. Jenna john breaking every single time that steve is michael. Said your body. Only has a certain amount. Yeah that would lose it your remember that i do because i was in the background at reception. I think two minutes nine seconds. You can see john trying not to break. Also when michael is talking to jim about ryan's lame camping trip that he clearly wanted to go on these kind of making fun that they did s'mores and he's like hello. I'm broken mountain. You know and this is this moment. Jenna where i felt like michael was my mom because my mom would never get the name brokeback mountain correct. My mom would probably think it was broken mountain. My mom was always one word off. My mom is the same way. Are we going to be like that. Angela i think i already am. I feel like we're starting to turn into that. I went to say like. Let's face time the other day. And i said why don't we facebook there it is. I know that's classic mom brain right there. It's happening well. Then michael has a talking head where he explains that when he and jan had satellite tv. I guess maybe they turned off because of their money problems. But yes this is the thing we love. This is the call back to money right. Yeah they're on a budget now. Oscar has given them a budget. I also want to point out that when we get to the dinner party episode and we see michael's new flat screen. Tv just remember. That has no satellite television on it as tablet in this episode. It's great anyway. He says that he jan used to watch a show called survivor man. And it's all about this guy who survives in the wild. And so michael is going to do this because this is real wilderness adventure So he tells. Dwight i need to things a roll of duct tape and a nice and i need thirty minutes or less androids like on it. No problem. I did a little bit of a of the weaponry in the office. Oh there's so much. Dwight goes around the office collecting weapons that he's hidden lady. Look at my documentation. You really did documented. There's numbers they're numbered. How many are there. Okay guess how. Many weapons are in the office. I'm not talking about what he has in his car. 'cause we know he has stuff in the trunk of his car. Okay just guess what he has stashed in the office. How many eight twenty three what. Now listen office. Fans if i got it wrong. Let me know. But this is what i tracked and i went back and rewatch the negotiation so ready in the negotiation taped underneath his desk pepper spray and throwing stars in his desk. Drawer are nunchucks. A billy club. Licken thing and listen my weapons experts. If i get some of these names wrong just you know you'll let me know then there's also handcuffs taser another drawing star. What looks like to be a whip brass knuckles in a boomerang. That's just in the negotiation and in this episode under meredith's desk are like he rolls out a set of like eight. Different types of knives to pitchfork dagger. Looking things are behind the water cooler. There's a giant knife in the file cabinets by kevin's desk. There's a semi sort in the ceiling over stanley and phyllis his desk and then finally he has blow darts in the men's restroom like in the back of the toilet. Call the back of the toilet thing. The tank the tank. Yes so when. I added them all up you guys. I counted twenty three weapons in the office. It's quite a menagerie of weaponry. A menagerie of weapons. Dwight and i don't know what. Those pitchfork dagger thingies are called. And i'm sure you guys will let me know. But that's what they look like to me. I don't know what those were either. They seemed like they would be really good for roasting marshmallows. Even though i understand they're a weapon. It seemed like a really great triple marshmallow roaster. Yeah i got really interested for whatever reason in the blow dart gun. Oh okay so. Guess what i have for you. Do you have a deep dive on blow dart guns. I sure do oh lady lady gave a term heritage is from what i could find the blow. Dr seems to have been invented in ancient times and probably in southeast asia. They started as bamboo tubes. That shot out seeds and clay pellets. Okay and then eventually graduated to poison darts now angela. You might find this interesting because it is believed that it was indonesian traders. That took the blow gun to japan south india madagascar and they also popped up in south america middle america and the eastern united states. Do that's indonesian for. Oh my goodness there. We go dark. Guns were primarily used for hunting not combat movies. We always see them. Used in combat scenes But they were actually a hunting device. The north american cherokees were known for using them to hunt rabbit and other small creatures and blow. Guns are still used today. There are even sport. Blow gun competitions. Angela and some groups are trying to make it an olympic event. I would watch that. Yes the blow dart event. I'm there lady. Can we go to a blow dart competition. i'm fascinated. Can we go to a blow dart master and get trained on how to blow dart. I'm up for all of it. Astor researching the blow dart. I'm like bring it on. Bring it on. I'll tell you what one of my improv teams we had a player who would sometimes hog the stage and just not leave the stage and take over every scene so a bunch of us started improv. Blow darting him like he'd have to pass out and we just are blow darting him in scenes. That is very funny. He was the michael of your class. Go well guys. Michael is ready to go. He comes out of his office and he tells pam that he and dwight are leaving. Dwight will return later. And michael will be taking a personal day tomorrow and perhaps for the next two days and 'em like do you want me to ask you where you're going. Yeah and he says no and then he tells her anyway. Of course i noticed. White is standing behind michael. This whole speech. He is holding four things. He is holding a camera the same camera that we use to make michael's apology video A roll of duct tape One of the giant knives and a bag of a what. What is it what is it. I zoomed in. I took a picture of it. I can't tell at first. I was like. Is it peanuts. There's no way it's peanuts. it's also so full it looks like the pellets. You feed your hamster. that's what it looks like to me. It looks like some sort of animal kibble. I don't know he's gonna sprinkle around to attract animals while we never see him eat it. We never see him us. What's in the bag. He uses the other three things. I don't know we see them. Only hold the bag of question mark. That's right also in the scene. I love that. Michael announces that when he comes back he is going to be a completely changed human being and then jim says that would be great So good dwight of course has this talking which is really funny. Where he's like. No he doesn't believe. Michael survive in the wilderness super matter fact but lady. I have to point out something at five minutes. Nineteen seconds what is it. Why are michael and dwight in a two thousand. Six or two thousand seven give or take. Pt cruiser. i think we have a car switch. Is this an extension of michael's money stuff where he said. They traded in both their cars for that portion. Did they get rid of the porsche. And now he has a pt cruiser. Oh my gosh we need someone to figure this out. We do and i looked up the pt cruiser. This is around the two thousand and seven make with the red interior. I googled it. Why is michael having a chrysler. pt cruiser. I need to know why. Who could we ask. I don't know guys. This is one of those moments where you can see so clearly that we are not the experts of the office Perhaps there is a really obvious answer for this like remember. When i declared that pam had never used the shredder and then several episodes later. She clearly uses the shredder in. Take your daughter to work day. It is very possible that we missed why he's driving a pt cruiser. Someone tell us let us know. This is going to keep me up at night. And you know how i do with no sleep letter. No and while they're in this pt. Cruiser angela michael is explaining to the camera. What's happening We are to assume that michael is being driven to the forest by a serial killer. Who's gonna leave him for dead but michael is going to survive the overkill killer. Has dwight calls himself. yes he says. If i were your serial killer you would never survive I have a fan question from congo and matthew lister in this scene in the car dwight takes his shoe and hits michael in the head. Was the shoe. Hit planned or improvised and joey car would like to know. Was that an actual shoe or did phil shea have to make a shoe out of rubber or some other soft material. That wouldn't hurt. Steve i asked steve about this. Yeah first of all it was planned. It was in the script. It was not improv steve beliefs. It was a real shoe. He is not sure. I zoomed in on it. It looked like a real shoe. Steve said maybe the reason he can't remember is because it was a real shoe and so he's going with real show. I zoomed in on it to not only do i think is a real shoe. I actually think it's white shoe. I think it came off rates foot. It looks exactly like the shoes he wore. Yes and i can't imagine that phil. Shay was able to make a replica. Foam shoe that was a real shoe back in the office. There's some drama. I guess. Jim has been put in charge of things because of michael's absence and angela goes up to jim to talk about ordering a cake for creeds birthday. We'll she lets him know it's birthday month and you guys we all have birthday month right arbor day month and my family is may all three kids are born in may my mother-in-law's born in may two of my sisters are born in. May we call it. Birthday palooza jenna. What's your birthday month. Our birthday month was march. When i was growing up me my sister and my mom are all born in march so we had three birthdays in one month. I'm telling you every family has one and under mifflin. This is birthday month. Creeds today oscars is a week. after next. meredith is at the end of the month. We also find out later in this episode from creed that jim's was three weeks ago. And there's a series of talking heads about birthdays angeles. Says you know what if this is birthday month. Jog back nine months. You know what that was valentine's day. And then she tells everyone. Stagger your sin. Stagger your sense. So we don't have birthday munch and jenna. Kelly has a talking head about the birthdays. And i'm just gonna show you a screen grab because i really need it to just be surprise. I want you to read. I put the subtitles on last night. I want you to read. What kelly says about pam because this is a little bit at kelly shade. Oh my gosh. read out loud. What kelly says about you. Pam lies about her age. That's amazing there's a great runner of talking heads that were deleted. And that's part of kelly pours while i'll tell you something in real life. I m five years older than john. Krasinski scandalous i know but on the show are characters are meant to be the same age. I couldn't tell so. I think they made jim a little bit older than john. And they made pam a little younger than me. You met in the metal. Will i wanna point out. Two things. That six minutes. Five seconds during this whole conversation between angela and jim which by the way this episode was the most gem and angela have interacted so far today. This is the most had to speak to each other huge janelle a storyline a storyline at six minutes. Five seconds jenna. This is the return of the puffy elbow sweater. It's so unattractive. I'm sorry lady your face your bangs. Your skin is glowing hewlett gorgeous. This top is a tragedy. Why did they buy it in two colors remember. I wore it in the beige version of launch party. Yeah well it's back now. It's in maroon so we've got that going but my plant at perception people over jim shoulder we see the plant at front reception it is a blooming plant. Oh whoa what. It is a pink anteroom. Blooming blooming plan at front reception lady. Jim has a big idea. That is not going to go over. Well it is not it pisses literally everyone off. Jim suggests that they just do one big party rather than several parties over the course of the month. Angela doesn't like it. No one's gonna like this idea. Yeah i would have liked that growing up in my family. I don't wanna share a birthday with my sister with my mom in my house. Our tradition was that you got to pick your cake and you've got to pick your dinner on your birthday and my sister and i liked different. Dinners and different cakes and it's very similar to what's going to happen the office. Everybody wants their own little thing Next up we have gym talking head. That has a wonderful montage that goes along with it of birthday surprises angela. We got more mail about this talking head than any talking head. I think we've ever had. Is it about all the different birthday parties. No well i took a picture because in this montage of all the different birthday parties there is a moment where we are all just flat out laughing. Oh yeah we've completely broken character. And it's when brian takes the blow up doll and his beating rain over the head with it. They improvised that that was just them being idiots. A lot of people wanted to know how much where we actually laughing and all of these clips here. Ice cream grabbed a moment. Geno where you can just see me. And ed helms an oscar look at that. That is not angela martin. That is amazing. I will put that scrabble stories. We had a lot of people right in and to point out that. Jim says there are thirteen people in the office. But shouldn't there be fourteen. I wrote it out. There's fourteen but keith nichol said. Is jim leaving out toby on purpose. Just like michael wood. Oh subconsciously right. Maybe yes it's fourteen with toby. Thirteen without oh you know what is interesting to me is that it's clear that pam knows that this is a horrible idea. She knows it's a disaster. She goes up to jam. And like you think this is a good idea. And he's like i think it's a great one and she just kinda smells like no gay. Why does that say anything. I don't know why she doesn't but jim does. Seem a little immovable here right. He seems a little convinced that he has a great idea. And i think she's like okay. Let's play it out. Let's see how this goes buddy. But she knows how it's gonna go. Maybe she just needs to let him figure it out. He has to find his own way. I guess so guys at this point. Dwight and michael have arrived in the woods. Michael's blindfolded and he has asked white to lead him into the wilderness. Do you notice how do i purposely takes michael through a bunch of weeds rather than walk him on the clear path. Yeah he's like. Don't worry just some bushes and some thickets when he clearly could have walked around them before removing his blindfold. Dwight also insists on spinning michael around which i loved. There are so many deleted scenes of them in the woods. Jenna men went through that week. I mean they wrestle each other to the ground. There's just so many scenes like dwight is doing bird calls he's hiding. Michael is exploring a ravine saying absolute nonsense. He saying that like yeah. This ravine was formed when the icebergs like all this crazy stuff. And i kept thinking as i watch all this extra footage which is michael. Do this footage. What does he do with all this. Whoever sees the stuff. I don't know i think that all the time when i see people doing things like videotaping a fireworks display. You're gonna watch that later. You're gonna watch that seven minute video of the fireworks and by the way while the fireworks are going off. You wanna watch your phone screen. I don't get it. yeah now so. Dwight has left michael on his own. Of course we know. He secretly watching him. And michael has decided it's getting hot and he takes his knife. I was so worried about his leg the whole time by the way that he was going to like sever his leg me metoo. He cuts his pants into shorts He then decides to make a hat out of the extra material. His jacket can be a backpack. He's saying the craziest things and he is destroyed his pants. We got a lot of male about that scene. From jordan y mary triggs and colby shannon. They wanted to know. Was steve really cutting. His pants was the costume rigged in some way i reached out to steve. Because like you angela. I was very nervous. It looked very real. Yeah and steve said that costume was not rigged. He cut his pants with a real nice show up. He said it was in hindsight. It was a truly stupid thing to do. He can't believe that he did it. I cannot believe this we have a frigging safety meeting for a lit candle and now steve is cutting. His pants opened in the middle of nowhere by the way if he did cut his leg. They were far from anything. Yeah steve really likes this moment though. He said it makes them laugh. Because in the movie. Castaway tom. Hanks does this. And that's kinda where. He got the idea but tom hanks does it after. He's been on the deserted island for like two years. Yeah and michael. Does it after thirty five minutes. Listen lady i think we should take a break and when we come back. We're going to discuss some cake drama. I can't wait. I still can't believe he cut his own pants with that knife. I know he specifically told me he did not use stunt legs home Stunt legs or no stunt legs stunt knife and no tearaway close though is all real. You guys know that angela and i have been talking about hellofresh for a while. We'll very recently. We got to go on a writer's retreat because we're working on a book. Ooh an angela. What did we bring with us for our dinners. We brought hellofresh meals. It was great because we needed was in one bag. Every ingredient already measured really to go with instructions. It was amazing. We made a very delicious steak with these little potato pods right. We slice the potatoes and we made medallions of potatoes with cheese on top. Oh those were so good. They were so yummy and then we did this chicken. The sauce was so good. Go to hellofresh dot com slash office ladies twelve and use code office ladies twelve for twelve free meals including free shipping. That is amazing. Twelve free meals that's hellofresh dot com slash office ladies twelve and code office ladies twelve for twelve. Free meals including free shipping. If you have thirty free minutes you will never have to worry about a break in at home ever again. Because that is how quick and easy it is to set up a new security system from simply safe and angela. This i do my husband. And i have simply safe and it was so incredibly easy they send you everything you need but not only that you go on the website and pick what you want for each room. How you want to design your security system for the space you live in. It gets to your house in about a week. Which means if you did this today by next week you'd have a home security system exactly and it is so easy to set up but if you need an expert they are right there to help now angela. You guys installed at yourself though right. We did part so we installed some things but then we had a question about a few other items and they sent someone right out and we were so impressed with how hands on they were. How quickly they got back to us. You can go to simplisafe dot com slash. Ladies today to customize your system and get a free security camera that's simplisafe dot com slash office. Ladies today we are back and we have cake wars cake wars at denver mifflin and not the fun kind where they decorate a great cake. Exactly know everyone wants their own cake. Meredith is like listen. I want devils food. Cake gyms like no problem. And then this ticks off creed creed is like it is my actual birthday. Like meredith. doesn't get to pick the cake. I don't like devil's food cake. I want peach pie. I absolutely love. Jim creed seen together if this very different style. It looks totally different from any other scene. It's uptight and close creed superintendents. It reminds me of like aaron sorkin kind of moment whereas like tat dialogue back and forth and listen tell angeles for creed show know what it means. Can i say something controversial. What you don't like aaron. Can i love aaron sorkin. I don't like peach pie. I don't like kind of peach in a desert. I love every other cobbler. I love berry. cobbler apples. Whatever you want to throw in there no peaches for me. I don't know what it is. If it's a peach. I wanted to stay a peach and i want to eat it as a peach. I'm not interested in being desertified. What is that. i don't know don't know. I don't know what that is. I mean do you like like. Do they do peach jam. I don't want peaches a jam. Okay liberal strongly you feel about it. I have very angela. Martin esq feelings about how peaches are to be prepared. Can i share something with you. What okay jonah. This is a snarky moment for me. I'm going to share it with you in everyone listening okay my whole entire life. I'm summer birthday. So when i was growing up they would like have the birthday celebration. Whoever at school it was their birthday right. There'd be like some kind of birthday snacker. You wear a birthday crown or whatever it was that your classroom did right. Yup i never got one side a summer birthday. And guess. What guys if you grew up in the seventies and eighties there was no like this is for all the center birthday celebration. They didn't give a crap. You had some birthday. You didn't get any kind of celebration at school nowadays. If you have a summer birthday do a little thing for the kids with the summer ruthies. Not when i was growing up. Cut to our time on the office. Nine years jonah. Nine years i watched all of you guys get a birthday cake. I watched the whole entire cast and crew gather round and clap and sing happy birthday and take pictures and pewter and barten- would make a special cake for the birthday person nine years. Yep we never shot the office in june. Did we never shot the office in june guests who never got the office birthday cake. Oh no me. Oh god i never got it. No i never got it. I remember like around season eight. They rolled out a cake for someone. Everyone's clapping and singing. And i literally said out loud. No one ever did this for me. Bitter and someone else was like. Yeah i summer birthday. Where's our summer birthday cake. did they ever do it. No i have never gotten a birthday cake school or work. This is my crimea river. But when i see these scenes i just remember like being like. Yeah well. where's my cake. Oh by lady. I'm so sorry you're right. I enjoyed many a march birthday cake by peter and varta with the candle. Sometimes they would do a photo cake and put some sweet personal photo on it. I have multiple photos. I took of other people in their k. We also did it for the crew members. I know yeah. Some birthdays sol. So listen. I turned fifty in june. I expect an office ladies birthday cake and a song and applause. Okay don did you get that sam. Cassie cody for once in my life. I wanna work birthday. You know what. Angela i promise. We will not take a vacation the week of your birthday just so that we are forced to celebrate it. I want to work on my birthday. Yeah that's the other thing. Everyone else was like dude. At least you were like on vacation for your birthday. I was stuck at work. At least i got a cake. I want to work on my birthday. And i wanna kick. We'll make that happen for you this year. Delay promise thank you. I really appreciate it. Should we talk about andy's cake demand. Yes he wants a fudgy. The whale ice cream cake and pizza rolls and mushroom caps. Oh lady do you remember the fudgy the whale do you remember this onset. It was a big deal. I do because it's a special cake brand. Yes it's carbel right. And i had never heard of fudgy the whale which i remember a few of the crew and cast were like. Are you kidding me. You've never heard of fudgy the whale but it was east coast thing i'd never heard of it. It's totally an east coast thing won't last night. Somebody might have done what she likes to call a mini dive you many dived veggie the whale. I mean that does sound inappropriate. But i like it there. You go all right. Here's everything you need to know about fudgy. The whale carville was founded by tom. Carvel who by the way is fascinating that would be a whole other deep dive about his life. And how he really gave birth to like this whole franchise ice cream phenomenon. But here's the famous story. It's on their websites in multiple places online. Legend has it. Tom carville had an ice cream truck. That broke down in his ice cream. Started to melt so he was really trying quickly to sell off all this ice cream before it melted and he found that the customers actually liked it soft so he was like wait a second and he started serving soft serve ice cream and no one else was doing that. Oh and so. It became a whole thing right. He developed a soft serve ice cream machine. He even patent it. He sold it to their franchises. This man jenna. He was the boss lady he was a boss. Dude he was the boss. Daddy there we go. He was a boss daddy and he started the very first carvel ice cream shop on the exact spot where his truck broke down. That is boss daddy. So there are carville stores their franchise. There is one now in los angeles jenna really. They're used to not be. But there is one now in los angeles and they became famous for a few cakes in the seventy s. They created. This cake called the cookie. Puss oh boy. I know the hug me. Bear and then fudgy. The whale followed in june of nineteen. Seventy seven. he was all tom. Carnevale's idea he was like we need a cake for father's day. I wanted to be a whale. And i want the slogan to say for a whale of a dad. Oh my god. I am loving so much about this. I looked up the expression. I'd never heard of this awale of something. I don't know if you've heard of that expression. I hadn't but that was an expression and it referred to a very great amount of something or a very good thing so to be a whale of a dad was you. Were a great dad right budgie. The whale was so successful. They kept the mold and talk about reuse repurpose at christmas time. They flipped fudgy. The whale on its head and made his tail like the santa hat in made them into a santa and to this day. You can still get fudgy the whale and you can also get a female fudgy. The whale. They'll give her pink piping and like eyelashes and a little bow and more than fifty thousand fudgy. The whale ice cream cakes are sold every year. All the kids come with two layers of chocolate and vanilla separated by a layer of what they call crunchies. They don't tell you what's in there crunchy recipe and you can customize it with favorite flavors and a different type of center and there you have it. That's fudgy the whale. But i have one other thing i wanna play you. Tom carvel himself would do all the jingles and commercials professional. No way. yeah all right geno. Here's tom carville. Talking about fudgy. The whale for their ad day participating store you'll make some share twenty people if you want to send territory you call trump number dead. I don't want to tip my hand too much. am i gonna get a fudgy. The whale for my fiftieth birthday. How could we not get you. Fudgy the whale now. Oh my god. I am so excited already. I want to eat one of those so bad. Now that you've described it. I know i went on kerrville website. There's so many cool can cakes. They do a lot more now. I'm not gonna lie the cookie. Puss is kind of odd looking. What is it a cat. I took a picture of it here. Were their first three cakes. That were like their famous cakes. Okay for you to see this. This is the cookie puss. Oh well it has a ice cream cone as a nose and then on its cheeks that has little arms drawn on. It has cookies for is are they arms. What's the post part. Is it meant to be a cat. I don't know. I don't understand what it is. Here's the best part for saint patrick's day you can get a cookie puss. The irish version. I don't understand it. I wanna eat it. I don't know. I went real deep onto the carville site but i'm very excited. I wanna fudgy the whale for my fiftieth birthday done. I can't wait. I don't remember it being on set. Isn't that funny. I remember everyone talking about it. And i remember people saying what is it. But i don't remember ever having won. I totally remember it. I mean my character didn't eat it. But i remember ed eating it in the scene. Wow well when we eat your cake for your birthday. It's going to be all new to me lady. Should we go back out into the wilderness. Oh we should. I have a crew catch at thirteen minutes. Fifteen seconds or would you catch. You can see our cinematographer randall. Einhorn's hand come into frame and brush some tree branches away that we're probably going to hit his camera. He's walking behind dwight. Oh jonah. that's a great catch. I didn't see that. What's the time code. Thirteen minutes fifteen seconds. I was not the only person to catch it. But i want to say that i saw before i saw are male but tim wong jona not addie h. And kiana roeber also wrote in about randall's hand. Well great job guys great job. We also had jasper anders and morgan right in to ask what did fill shea us for the bird eggs that dwight fines and cooks. They kind of look like they might be small potatoes. Guess what what they were. Small potatoes really teeny tiny potatoes. Meant to look like eggs. I totally thought they were eggs. But i was trying to think. What kind of bird makes the nest like that up in a tree. What i what. What many birds hurts. Though will such a big mess. Though like those eggs like a bird that would lay on the ground to me. Or i mean i guess what or maybe their eggs of a bird that would nest really pie exactly. They didn't look like the type of eggs that you could just reach with your hand. I think you would find him on the ground or there'd be up on a clifftop. I think that that's a good way to say it. Wait wait you said. What kind of bird lays exit a tree. I was confused. Move your point now And i hear it. And i think it's a good point thank you. I need to talk about this shot of michael singing happy birthday because it is just wonderful. Oh michael has just made a spear the teeny tiniest spear on the end of a very crooked stick. I wanna point out that he made a spear when he has an amazing knife like you would think he would attach to the end of the stick with his duct tape with his duct tape. He might have used all his duct tape to fashion his tent out of his pants. That's coming up. I guess but yeah. There's this shot that poll so far back and what's amazing about it to me is guys. Steve was really in the middle of nowhere. And our crew was far back as this shot reveals. Yeah i thought it was a beautiful shot. I also love these moments when michael remembers things. Like sprinkles like creeds birthday you know and he sings a song and he's like happy birthday. Buddy yeah these. Are those very sweet michael moments. This shot also made me think about how. Steve corral wrote this episode. He wrote himself a very difficult. Shoot day in the woods. He did where he gets. tackled by. Dwight oh my gosh. If i were writing an episode for myself i would make it. Pajama day at the office. where we all wear are pajamas and there are no stunts. I had a very different episodes. So i applaud steve for really going for it in the name of comedy back in the office. We have bitching in the break room. Oh i love the everyone is in the break room. And they are complaining about new birthday ordinance. And it's just a great fest. Look what i wrote as part of the scene. I've never had a cake at work for my birthday. Wow everyone was griping about the cakes and the birthdays angela. This episode really triggered you. Apparently so right about this time. Jim walks in and creed delivers major sas o. Creed sas some real real good passive aggressive south from creed and right after some real serious creed sas. Jim is going to have to deal with toby. Oh this is such a good scene. It's so good and you see in gyms is oh my god michael i get it. Yeah he has a talking head where he says you know. Toby is sometimes a bit much. Well listen toby's birthday is not right now. And he's piling on. Jim he says i'd really like to be included because when we did celebrate my birthday it was in the parking lot at four fifty eight pm and so toby would now like to be included. Jonah am i the toby of this moment today. No i the toby am. I like i know it's not my birthday but i would be included. Am i the toby while. You're not asking to throw you a party on someone else's birthday you're just saying this year. Don't skip my acid birthday just because it's in the summer. I think it's very different than you. Jim agrees to just add toby to the mix and angela. This she so furious. She's like you can't go. Willy nilly with all of this gym you know. We already have several cakes and pie. Caps and and toby's like. I'm allergic to mushrooms. Well that's the last straw. Jim storms out of his office and he says conference room and pam's like five minutes and he's like yes conference room five minutes and he's like no i mean no. We're going to deal with this right here. I have something to point out in the scene. It's a little background catch car. Both creed and meredith have free cell game open on their computer. I have a little background catch in the scene as well at seventeen minutes. Thirty six seconds. I am leaning against michaels door frame standing next to toby. And you can see the beginning of my baby belly. Oh my gosh are you serious. I am serious. And i watched this episode with my daughter and i didn't say anything to her and as she was watching it with me we got to the scene and she said mom this when you were pregnant with me and i said it was looked jenna. Oh my gosh and you have your hands in front of your stomach to kind of try to hide it but ange. I thought i could kind of see it earlier in the episode. When you have your first seen walking up to jim's death really. They tried to position you a little bit behind his computer screen. But maybe because. I know i felt like i had a belly spot. Well this will be the beginning of the belly tracking because we had to get really creative next few weeks. I'm ready to head back out to the forest angela. Okay 'cause i have a lot to say about the scene where michael finds the mushrooms growing under a tree and he starts to eat them and white tackles him and forces them out of his mouth. It's pretty amazing. It's so great. I had to know more about these mushrooms. What'd you find out. According to under pedia the species of mushroom that michael was about to eat are called haifa loma. Fast accu- laurey. I'm sure i got that wrong. I would never be able to say that. They are more commonly known as the clustered would love her king. A deep dived on these mushrooms. I'm guessing they grow on. Would they do. It is a type of mushroom and they grow on trees stumps or trunks. The taste is very bitter if you eat them raw but they are not better if you cook them. They are poisonous either way cooked or raw. Why would anyone cook them their poisonous. How do we even know what they taste like. I'll tell you because a common poisoning. Technique would be to cook these mushrooms with non poisonous mushrooms. And then feed them to your enemy. And it's sort of like an undetectable way to poison someone to death so morbid so clearly. This has been done. Yeah did you see movie. Phantom threads starring daniel day lewis because this is a plot point in the movie no and if you told me to watch it i'm gonna watch the first fifteen minutes of it while you're gonna miss the mushrooms because they happen later. Let me tell you what. Here's what happens to you if you eat these mushrooms cac. Diarrhea nausea vomiting convulsions. impaired vision paralysis. Collapse lease it can take up to five to ten hours before you get symptoms now. Most of the time the symptoms will resolve themselves after a few days. But you get real sick but they can cause death if you eat too many. So guys spoiler alert. Phantom threat is an amazing movie. everyone should watch it. I'm not gonna watch it as if anyone's ever gonna take my movie recommendations again. I did watch this one all the way through twice. I loved it so much. Stop listening here for ten seconds. If you don't want me to spoil the movie for you but someone gets poisoned with mushrooms. Do they have a a little little towel by their coffee pot. No but they have a wonderful english kitchen That looks like it's really fun to cook in so there is some great shots of great kitchen. I'll be sure and check out the shots. The kitchen let john wick go angela. Let it go. Maybe once you get your car bell cake you'll forgive me when i join everyone who's ever celebrated their birthday at work or school. Anyway that is the download on the mushrooms. We know the scene where. Dwight tackles michael to the ground. Yeah there was much more of this in the deleted scenes. There is a great talking. Had were michaels like you know when dwight tackle me to the ground and was fishing the mushrooms out of my mouth with his finger like says it just like when dwight had his finger in my mouth he said i laid back and i looked at the sky and the birds were chirping in. There were clouds and it was so beautiful. And then i vomited because it was really gross. It's really funny that he had this sort of beautiful moment while. Dwight was trying to fish the mushrooms out of his mouth i have to ask. Is that talking head. Is he wearing his torn up close. Or is he wearing dwight's sweatshirt no it would have been like a wrap up talking head about his day and he was in his office with the battle star galactica sweatshirt. Well i love this idea that his clothes are tattered. He's probably vomited on them and to why has to give him this rescue sweatshirt that was in his trunk. Jenna i want you to know at eighteen minutes thirty one seconds when dwight and michael comeback and they walk in the party and michael immediately starts kidding. Those high notes right. He doesn't miss a beat. The camera pans the conference room. And toby pam and oscar all standing together and they are smiling so big and i thought. Oh my god toby. An angela are happy to see michael oskar. Yeah like. I expect pam to smile at him. You know but the fact that toby. Angela were relieved to see michael. Well they did not enjoy jim being in charge. No we had a fan catch in this scene angela. Okay firm andrea t. Who would like to know who made the peach cobbler for creed. Because it's in a pyrex dish. It's clearly homemade. Did angelo go home and make this cobbler because she is so dedicated to throwing the perfect birthday party. So listen. I thought about this too. And i think angela did i think when creed said to jim tell angela it's for creed she'll know what to do. Angelo went home and made his favorite peach cobbler. Pi i'm impressed Well at eighteen minutes fifty. Six seconds you guys. There is a great shot of the fudgy. The whale cake. Oh so there you go. It was their proof of fudgy. Proof of fudgy and jenna wrapping up the scene. Jim and michael. Have this fantastic moment. Where jim is like. I tried to do all of their parties on one day. Michael's like oh yeah. I did that. Yeah rookie mistake. You'll figure it out. This scene is so beautiful. It's this glimpse into michael where he's kind of talking to appear right. He's always manage during us are always wanting to be in that position of status to us but here he is talking manager manager to jim. It's amazing it's so great and it's such a human moment gyms like i'm not going to be here in ten years and michael's like yeah. That's what i said. So as we close out this episode jenna. I thought we could hear. Just the final end of jim and michael seen together. Sam can you play that. Sure that you're back. You are relieved. You have no idea. Well i tried to put all birthdays together at once. A terrible idea okay. I did that rookie mistake. You did do it on now this week. Ten years they'll figure it out on the. I'll be here in ten years. That's what i said. That's i never know. Say i say stuff like that. You know to lighten attention when things get hard on some. She said nice really good. Bravo my young ward. I have a question. Yeah is michael finally eating. What was in the bag. It sounds like he's eating nuts. Yeah i looked at it. And it's like. I can't tell what they are little pretzel bites. You know what they look like. If you get a checks mix there. Are these little stubby pretzel by things I don't know or they look like slivered almonds pecans. It's such a mystery. But as i watched that lovely seen that i absolutely love i was wondering what he eating. I'd forgotten about it. I'll have to go back and look while you guys that was survivor man. I don't think i'd make it out in the woods. I do think i'd make party planning. I'd make sure everyone had their dang cake. Next week we have the deposition that has some of my favorite scenes of all time brilliant. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for in your questions and your comments. We love it. We love you guys. Everyone's send angela cake on by guys. Bye thank you for listening to office. Ladies office ladies is produced by your won't jenna fischer and angela kinsey. Our show is executive produced by cody fisher our producers. Cassie jerkin are sound engineer. Is sam kiefer and our associate producer is ainsley buco. Our theme song is rubber tree by creed bratton for ad free versions of office. Ladies go to stitcher premium dot com for a free one-month trial stitcher premium use code office

michael jim angela pam Dwight steve toby dwight Toby Jim ryan jenna Michael meredith los angeles angela kinsey paul fig steve corral scranton catalina rizzi sydney weaver