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Coming Down Fast | 6

Young Charlie by Hollywood & Crime

55:14 min | 11 months ago

Coming Down Fast | 6

"Young Charlie by Hollywood and crime contains depictions of violence and is not suitable for everyone. Please be advised on December fifty nine thousand nine hundred sixty nine. Los Angeles grand jury sat in Somber Silence as it listened to Susan Atkins describe what went on at Cielo drive live in the early hours of August ninth while Tex Watson held a pistol on white tech for cousy in the living room. Susan wandered around the House through an open bedroom door. She saw Abigail folger's sitting in bed. Reading a book Abigail looked over at her and smiled assuming she was a guest of Sharon's. Susan smiled back and continued down the hall inside another bedroom. She saw JC bring sitting at the edge of a bed. Sharon was is lying on the bed. Is the two talked quietly. When Susan returned to the Living Room Techs told her and Patricia Krenwinkel to gather everyone brandishing their knives. Susan took charge of Sharon and see bring while Patricia God Abigail when they were all in the living room. Tex ordered the two men in two women to lie down on their stomachs in front of the fireplace. Can't you see she's pregnant protested. Seib ring and that's when tax shot. JC JC bring in the stomach Hollywood and crime is brought to you by Madison Reed be honest. When's when's the last time you got your hair colored. If you've been putting off getting your hair done because of the time and expense of going to this lawn I get it for decades. Women women have only really had two options for colouring their hair that salon trip or unreliable outdated at home colour but not anymore four crafted in Italy by Master colourless. Madison Reed is professional hair color. You can easily do at home. This is multi tonal ammonia own your free hair-color with ingredients. You can feel good about and women love the results they get with Madison Reed Gorgeous Shiny multidimensional healthy the. Looking hair this gray covering game changing color you can do at home and look like you just came from the Salon and by the way I I love this product. My hair has never looked better. Get an expert color consultation. Take the color quiz at Madison Dash. Re Dot com and find your perfect shade listeners of Hollywood and Crime get ten percent off plus free shipping on their first color kit with code l a crime. That's Code L. A. CRIME CRIME AT MADISON DASH RE DOT COM from wondering I'm Tracy Patent with Stephen Lang and today Hollywood and Crime Presents Young Charlie. If you're joining us for the first time we recommend you go back and listen to the previous episodes. We'll we'll be waiting for you. Today's episode coming down fast. Here's my co host Stephen Lang. The tension is building between Dennis Wilson and brother records over the bills. The company keeps getting however impressed by Charlie's music. Dennis might be the other beach boys don't shares enthusiasm and whatever taste they have for the scruffy wannabe is only compounded by their occurring medical costs of treating his followers frequent venereal diseases. The Record Company even receives bill for dental work done on Susan Atkins. Teeth when Dennis arranges recording session at brother Brian's home studio. It doesn't go much better than Charlie's earlier. Attempts Charlie arrives with a guitar and several family girls exuding an air of entitlement. Brian has no interest in attending the session and his wife Maryland is put off by the filthy young women's nonstop use of the bathrooms at one point Charlie early frustrated by the constant technical demands pulls a knife on the recording engineer the engineers the session and reports the incident to brother records execs but Charlie leaves with the professionally produced tape convinced a recording contract is now inevitable by now even Dennis us knows better though he does think Charlie's newly recorded ceased to exist as potential for some time now. The drummer has been eager to put more of his own stamp on the beach boys music. Maybe with some work ceased to exist might find a slot on the upcoming album over the summer of nineteen sixty. Eh Charlie's band of strays gains a few more members teenaged brooks. poston is a welcome mail edition especially since it contributes his mother's credit karn to the family coffers and one day while Hitchhiking Dennis Wilson is picked up by a lanky twenty two year old Texan in a pickup truck as is his habit. Dennis invites Charles Denton Watson back to his house. Watson is immediately impressed by the man sitting on the floor guitar in hand and surrounded by a half dozen young women. Charlie greets the Texan as if they are old friends then goes back to playing soft tune. Watson feels was instantly at home as if this encounters fate charlie is always looking for male recruits to add muscle and technical skills to his group and techs as they soon start calling him is a perfect fit tex is always willing to do what Charlie tells him to. Sharon Abigail screamed when Tex Watson Shot J. C. Bring Techs told them to shut got up and instructed Susan to tie Vojtech for counties hands with a towel then he took the nylon rope they brought and tied it around the wounded see brings neck he threw through the other end around a ceiling beam and tied it around. Sharon and Abigail necks pulling it tight so they would have to stand up or else choke then techs announced to his victims that they were all going to die and ordered Susan to kill for Hausky but VOJTECH had gotten his hands free from the loosely tied towel and fought back. Susan now claim that in the struggle for cousy had somehow gotten behind her and was pulling her hair. She stabbed at him but she said she couldn't be certain she'd struck him. Uh for cow ski broke free and made it to the front door before text reached him struck him on the head several times with the butt of the gun vojtech stumbled through the adore and fell down on the lawn and tex pounced on him stabbing him over and over until he stopped moving at this point in Susan's recitation tation. One of the jurors asked to be excused court recessed for a while so the jurors could compose themselves Susan's matter-of-fact description of the horrors at Cielo drive seemed to be getting to them though the recording session did not go was Charlie hoped he's elated to hear that Dennis plans to put cease to exist on the upcoming beach boys album and whenever is la he regularly hangs around with Denison SNL friends talent Scout Greg Jacobsen and record producer Terry Melcher Charlie even accompanies them one night as Dennis drives Terry to his home on Cielo Viele drive in Benedict Canyon. He's disappointed not to be invited into the house however confident the days of celebrity invitations are ahead of him once's geniuses recognized the release of one of his tunes on a beach boys album might be just the pushy needs but the families stay at Dennis. Dennis Wilson's log cabin mansion is coming to an end ambivalence is finally creeping into Denis's perception of his long-term guest perhaps influenced by his his brothers outright antipathy. He still finds Charlie provocative. Even compelling figure and a musical collaboration might hold promise but the bills incurred by his house guests continue adding up increasing dramatically when a family member rex Dennis's Mercedes all told the summer of Charlie Charlie has cost the beach boys in the neighborhood of one hundred thousand dollars far more disconcerting as Charlie's penchant for waving a knife around in a threatening manner his expression might easily dissolve into an only kidding Bryn but denison too much of Charlie's Darker Moods he decides to use his leases is exploration as an excuse to break or at least loosen his tie Charlie and hangers on he takes place in Malibu too small to accommodate the family removing any items from Dennis House. They deemed there's Charlie and his followers leave to complete the migration to spawn ranch. It might not afford Lorde the luxuries inconveniences Dennis Wilson's palatial log cabin but spun ranch has decided advantages over the sunset boulevard location thirty thirty miles from downtown. La The ranch is close enough to provide for the families necessities yet isolated enough that they will be under Charlie's exclusive influence. Excuse though his adherents might not recognize it Charlie sermons incorporate more than a little of the fire and Brimstone of the Nazarene Church attended with grandmother. Nancy women are put here to serve me though it's unlikely Nancy's minister or congregation would approve the serving serving to include whatever sex charlie dictates with whom every chooses but Charlie tells them. It's only breaking down the ego with its societally constructed walls that can truly be free when the woman leaves the ranch to go scrounging for food and supplies. One of the men must always accompany them. The girls aren't allowed to carry money not so much as a dime for a phone call as Charley sees it much of what's wrong with society is due to the increasing influence of of women of course Charlie's ideas on society are as mutable as his mercurial expressions and quavering vocals when he preaches Lavin of an acceptance before beating married to the ground with a chair it only seems contradiction since Charlie's perfect and the appearance of sin on his part art is only a measure of your imperfection and when he lovingly places that tab of LSD on your tongue enlightenment is your responsibility did the master can put you on the path. It's up to you to get to your destination. All you need to know is that all roads begin and with Charlie you have no mother no father but Charlie in the wilderness of spahn ranch there is only one voice and it's Charlie's it was only when JC bring bring started moaning that the killers realized he was still alive after finishing off Vojtech for cow ski on the lawn text return to the house and stabs see bring in the back until he stopped making noise by now. Sharon was struggling with the rope and Abigail had freed yourself and run to the door. Patricia grabbed turn struggle to keep her from getting out of the House Sharon Beg Susan to let her go so she could have her baby. Susan pushed her back to the couch and said woman. I have no mercy for you text turn to Susan and told her to kill Sharon though she had bragged to her civil brand cellmates that she'd murdered murdered Sharon. Susan now told the grand jury she couldn't go through with it that texts came back to the couch and stab Sharon to death while Susan held her arms the next next thing she knew Susan said Abigail soldier was on the lawn with tech standing above her stabbing her when he'd finished with her he went over to for cow ski and kicked him in the head to make sure he was dead then text turn to Susan and told her to write something on the walls and the victim's blood Susan took the towel she'd used is to bind for Caskey's hands and return to Sharon's body. Suddenly she stopped hearing something. Strange gurgling sounds were coming from inside. Sharon's chest like blood flowing into the body out of the heart Susan Atkins then told the hushed jury she had thought about cutting outing the dying baby from Sharon's body but didn't have the courage what a beautiful gift it would have been to present Charlie who loved children then she dip the towel and Sharon's blood in wrote pig on the front door trying to drink more water liquid. Ivy Is the fastest most efficient way to stay hydrated plus. It gives you an added bonus vitamin. C B Three B eighty five b six and B twelve. I take liquid. IV A lot when I'm traveling because I need that boost that comes from being super hydrated knowing I'm. I'm getting all of those vitamins in a nice bonus all liquid. 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Never Ver- learn not to love though Charlie immediately recognizes it as his own ceased to exist not only has Dennis Wilson renamed it. He's changed the lyrics though they talked about reworking the arrangement. Charlie explicitly told dentist not to tamper with his words to cap the indignity. The beach boy has credited himself as sole writer. The song performs poorly and quickly disappeared from the chart so hello Charlie can't even claim bragging rights on a successful single still he needs Dennis for his access to producer Terry Melcher whom Charlie is beginning beginning to feel is his last hope better according contract any desire for revenge against Wilson needs to be restrained. Charlie isn't the only song writer whose material appears that winter after hearing their newly released white album and early nineteen sixty-nine Charlie L. E. is more convinced than ever that the Beatles are reaching out to him through hidden meanings in their lyrics. If they haven't yet responded to the letters telegrams and phone phone call attempts he or the family made it's because they already know he's gotten the message. There is a luminous sphere of kinship. All prophets fits share in Charlie's imagining the Beatles of the four angels predicted in the book of revelation loosed upon the world to slay third of mankind and chalk doc is the fifth angel destined to rule the bottomless pit in anticipation. Charlie has already brought a portion of his people to a remote area of Death Valley accessible only by horse or four wheel drive vehicle. When several months earlier family member Kathy Gillies told him about her grandmother's is property the Myers ranch it was as if fate were again speaking to Charlie the nearby Barca property even more baron afforded ended up perfect base from which to search for the entrance to the pipped. Those spahn ranch remained convenient for Charlie's frequent trips to pursue his musical career. Barker had a logistical advantage. Charlie thought spot-on wasn't isolated enough the ranch had frequent visitors either tourists gawking at the western sets or bikers coming to hang out with the girls and it was easy hitchhiking distance to Los Angeles should a family member decide to leave the fold barker afforded an environment suited for little more than work and survival and taking in the wisdom Charlie had to impart and there is much to impart as Charlie dissects every lyric in the Beatles latest album blackbird foretells the rise of the black man to overthrow overthrowing the white establishment piggies revolution one is the Beatles implicit endorsement of the apocalyptic war to come revolution nine with its cacophony of loops and overdubbed is an explicit nod to the ninth book of Revelation Predicting Armageddon and when helter skelter 's raging invokana screams about getting to the bottom and back to the top. It's talking about the families reemergence from the bottomless pit to rule the world. The Beatles needles are setting the stage. The white album isn't just music. It's prophecy and Charlie's album will be its fulfillment. Once it's released the revolution will begin when Terry Melcher finally agrees to come out to spawn ranch to hear Charlie songs it. It isn't merely an audition. It's an earth changing event. After murdering the five people at Cielo drive the killers change in the car as they drove away through Benedict Canyon. Susan Atkins told told the grand jury that they threw the weapons and bloody clothes out the window at different spots along their route at one point. They stopped to wash the blood off them with a garden hose but a man. Dan came charging out of the house and chase them to their car. He tried to reach into grab the ignition key but texts gun the engine and they sped off when they reached sunset Boulevard Boulevard they found a gas station and stopped briefly to check themselves for more signs of blood when they arrived back at Spahn ranch at about two. Am Charlie was waiting for them. He asked why they were back. So early. Texts reported it had all come off perfectly. Though there was a lot of panic it sure was helter skelter he said always eager for Charlie's approval then Susan clean some drawing blood off the car door or handle and steering wheel with Iraq when Bouillaud see asked how she felt about what she had done. Susan replied I felt as though I kill killed myself. I felt dead. I feel dead now and then she and the other killers went to sleep everything is plan plan to the maneuvres detail long before the record producers arrival. Charlie's dressed in his new buckskins tailored to perfection by the girls loving hands. He's bathed and trimmed his hair and beard the family men of cleaned. The Western set in special food runs been dispatched so the women can bake fresh cookies as in cakes. Terry Melcher will be the guest of honor at a command performance. How can we fail to recognize Charlie's genius only Melcher never shows nor does he even have the respect to call and cancel the front is only compounded by its being witnessed by by the worshipful flock. How could Charlie Prophet of the coming age of helter skelter have failed to see this looming catastrophe. How can this follow his continued continued to take him seriously. It's enough that he's been rebuffed by producer. After producer enough that patrons like Dennis Wilson and Neil Young have failed to yield yield results but Terry Melcher was beginning to seem like the last chance for Charlie's vision to be realized the twin tracks of impending race war and in Rock superstardom present no great contradiction to Charlie or his followers will helter skelter be initiated by Charlie's emerging celebrity or subsumed assumed by it but if all roads lead to this moment how has it not been foreseen by the Prophet and if the family sees sees his vision falter in this worldly enterprise. How will they keep faith in his leadership through Armageddon. Charlie decides sides to take a trip to ten thousand fifty Cielo drive the grand jury reconvened leaned following the noon recess and prosecutor. Bouillaud see questioned Susan Atkins about the events of the following night August tenth satisfied that they had put some in fear into the establishment she told Jurors Manson and six family members piled into the car and drove to La in search of more victims this time time Leslie Van Houten and Stephen Grogan came along they stopped briefly at one residence and Charlie looked through the window seeing photos of children he he returned to the car though he explained that at some point it might be necessary to kill children as well they continue driving around in Susan Zim fell asleep when she woke up they were in front of the Law Bianca home her only association with the residents was that they had once been at an LSD party at a nearby nearby house. Susan said she fell asleep again. After Charlie got out of the car but remember he was carrying a gun. When she awoke Charlie was back. He said he'd tied the people up and they were very calm. It was important not to tell them they were going to die that had been Texas mistake the prior night which caused so much panic and disarray then he ordered Tax Patricia endlessly to go into the House and paint a picture sure more gruesome than anybody had ever seen. Charlie has no plan beyond convincing Terry Melcher to fulfill his promise to give him an audition as he walks up the driveway of the Benedict Canyon Property On march twenty third one thousand nine hundred sixty nine. He contains his rage at the record producers disdainful. No show at Spahn ranch deciding that charm is the best approach before he reaches the main house. A man comes out the front door demanding to know what Charlie is doing there. When Charlie says he's looking for Terry Melcher the the name doesn't seem to register. This is the Polanski residents. The man informs him. Maybe the person he wants his in the guesthouse. It's then that a beautiful young woman steps out onto the porch to see what's going on the two of them make eye contact from a few feet away this beautiful woman and the unkempt wandering Minstrel then Charlie turns down the past to the guest taps Rudi altobelli owner of this this yellow Dr Properties in the shower when here's the loud knocking when he opens the front door he recognizes Charlie immediately. They've met before Dennis Wilson's house. This Dennis even played one of Charlie's tapes for Altobelli who listened politely and responded. noncommittally Charlie seems to recall that occasion as well and the fact Altobelli isn't entertainment business manager as soon as he's informed that Melcher is no longer leasing the residence. He tries to turn the conversation to himself often his fledgling career but Altobelli has a plane to catch him little interest in engaging with the scruffy wannabe. He excuses himself and Charlie takes his leave. We've Charlie instructed tax PAT right and Leslie to Hitchhike home after they were done killing the law Bianca's then he and the other family members drove off Charlie had taken a woman's purse from the home and they stopped at a gas station in colored area where Linda placed it in a bathroom. The hope was a black person would find the purse use the credit out of cards and be blamed for the murders. It was only the following morning that's Susan learned from Patricia Krenwinkel what had happened inside the house this time. They hadn't brought weapons so they took knives from the kitchen. Pat and Leslie took Rosemary Labianca into the bedroom and left tax in the living room with Cellino. When Rosemary heard the sounds of Lino being stabbed to death in the other room she started screaming. Pat began stabbing her rosemary. Rosemary fought back and Leslie held her down. According to Pat Rosemary was fighting all the way up until she died pat told Susan she believed that Rosemary's Rosemary's last words. What are you doing to my husband would be the thought she carried with her into eternity texts came came into the room until Leslie to do something so she stabbed Rosemary several times in the stomach though she appeared to be already dead the three killers has returned to the living room and PAT rummaged around the kitchen she came back with a carving fork and stuck it into Lino Torso Marveling at how it wobbled back and forth Susan were called Krenwinkel telling her she had written death to all pigs and helter skelter and arise on the front door or your refrigerator in the victim's blood she had also carved war on Leena La Bianca stomach the killers then showered consumed some watermelon melon and chocolate milk from the murder couples refrigerator and hitch hiked back to spawn when asked by Bouillaud see for clarification. Susan explained to the jury that Charlie in the family pigs represented the establishment and helter skelter was to be the last war on earth in April nineteen sixty nine. The family has some legal problems on the nineteenth. La County sheriff's raid the spahn Ranch and confiscate several stolen Dune wound buggies. Charlie isn't there but Leslie Van Houten giving her name as Leslie Sexton is taken in along with several others. Charlie has given everyone instructions on how to behave if there ever arrested admit nothing and never mentioned helter skelter. They're released within days since authorities. Authorities have no way of determining who stole which vehicle on the twenty third Tex Watson is found crawling along Van Nuys sidewall under under the influence of Bella Donna route his arrested photographed and fingerprinted and placed in a cell until he regains his senses after he returns to spawn family members notice a change in the likable Texan he seems rougher and quicker to anger acting as if he's Charlie's second in in command but things are looking up in one important respect. Terry Melcher has finally agreed to come out to the ranch to hear Charlie perform. Yes yes thanks Charlie. This has only been one more test in a life of tests. If the record producers stood him up last time now he'll get a performance dwarfing. What Charlie earlier planned rehearsals around the clock. The girls will be chorus of angelic nymphs backing them up. They'll dance dance and slither out of their clothes snakes shedding their skin seductresses available to Melcher. Should the master commanded this will not merely be the performance but an experience the record producer cannot fail to see the magnitude of Charlie's talent. Yes thanks Charlie. He was right to persevere veer. He has told his followers will be bigger than the Beatles and he's about to fulfill that promise the world might not know it yet but it's about to be introduced the musical genius of Charlie Manson at no point in Susan Atkins Grand Jury retested Moni had she demonstrated the slightest appreciation of the gravity of her actions when dismissed from the standby bully Osi she sauntered from the courtroom room without a hint of shame or remorse the prosecutor then put on the stand his remaining four witnesses. Wilfred parent identified his murdered son Son Steven from his High School Yearbook Photo Winifred Chapman described finding the four bodies on the morning of August ninth. She also testified to having washed washed the front door before leaving work on August eighth which meant that Tex Watson's print had to be placed there sometime later in the day. Terry Melcher told jurors about the night Dennis Wilson had driven him home with Manson in the car establishing that Charlie had been to the House on Cielo drive he also are described a visit to spawn ranch to audition Charlie in a follow up with a local recording engineer to tape some of Charlie's tunes finally. La County County Coroner Thomas New Gucci testified as to the cause and manner of death of the five Cielo drive victims and with that the December birth fifty grand jury session closed helter skelter takes second place to Charlie's impending ascension into the Pantheon of Rock God's not that the signs of Charlie's prophesied prophesied apocalypse aren't a parent in a country torn by political strife and domestic insurrection Nixon's early presidency does little to lessen racial tensions shins and his secret plan to end the Vietnam War remained secret to all those in his inner circle bodybags continue to arrive with regularity and protests inflame the passions of what is seeming less and less like the love generation but the roiling discontent holds less interest for Charlie Charlie than his obsessive plans to create the perfect experience for Terry Melcher when the record producer arrives though he's less interested interested in the show then in the music Charlie's been touting ever since the two met Charlie performs his songs as the Girls Sing backup gyrating provocatively lien stripping off their clothes. Melchior watches impassively radiating the air of a man who has someplace else to be Charlie picks up on it and launches which is into one of his philosophical wraps but the producer doesn't engage when it's over Meltzer's noncommittal about Charlie's music but offers a morsel. I hope he wants to return with Mike. deasy a small time producer who runs a mini recording studio out of his van before leaving. Melchor Hands Charlie the fifty dollars in his wallet feeling sorry for the ragged family children running around looking dirty and hungry in front of his followers. Where's Charley acts as if cash is a down payment on a record contract on June sixth Melcher returns with DC to record Charlie. If the last audition ended ambiguously there is no uncertainty about Charlie's musical prospects in the wake of this episode a family members slips. LSD In a misguided effort geniality and DC suffers nightmare shillue nations. The recording session is abruptly ended ended before the two producers leaves. Spun Charlie gets into an altercation with a drunken stuntman hanging out at the ranch and beats him to the ground and if once ambivalent even intrigued by the Desert Prophet preaching love and loss of Ego. Melcher is now disgusted he sees Charlie is little more than an angry ex-con with no more musical gifts than the dozens of hopefuls flooding into L. A. Every day he leaves spun with unconvincing Chimeras but when he makes contact a few days later Charlie has already anticipated what he will hear. Melcher has passed if Charlie there's going to be bigger than the Beatles it won't be through his music of immediate concern to Charlie explaining to the family his failure to secure a long-awaited recording contract. If Charlie is infallible how can he have been so wrong but when all answers there's flow from Charlie contradiction as little impediment. Charlie has been betrayed. He will tell his followers even as Jesus was betrayed. D- rather than a symptom of Charlie's imperfection this Judas kiss must be seen as a sign of approaching end times aw when Linda Ca Sabians attorney Gary Fleischman asked for full immunity for his client. Bouillon balked the deputy. Da was already irritated. That Susan Atkins had gotten such a good deal the best he could offer Fleishman was voluntary manslaughter charge. Linda's lawyer argued that she had not fought extradition was eager to testify Voglio. Voglio see considered it. He knew that Susan was a wildcard. Her agreement precluded her from testifying at trial and she had Inouye disavowed her association in with Manson whom she still believed to be the most perfect man on earth she might change her mind and recant her grand jury testimony even her lawyer. Richard Kaba gyro suggested as much Mulyo see acknowledged to that Linda hadn't participated in the murders simply being present on both nights made her as legally culpable as those who shot stabbed and bludgeoned to death seven people but it appears she had legitimately feared for her life and the safety of her little girl Tanya who would have been at the mercy of the family had Linda appeared disloyal though he hadn't met Linda Bouli. Oc See felt it was unlikely she'd make a less sympathetic witness than the cold blooded end remorseless. Sadie May glutz the desert is a homecoming for Charlie Desk Valley Valley of death perfect in its symbolism hasn't he always said that life is death and death is life. Charlie is the woeful child of hardship and the desert is a universe of hardship Manson son of man like Jesus before Him Crucified in a Roman wilderness of pain betrayed by men small-minded envious men it simply not in the nature of small men to recognize great men but this time it won't be the prophet who is the sacrificial lamb. Didn't Jesus say that next time he'd be bringing a sword and Charlie has a sore one. He's gotten as a gift from the straight Satans victim throughout his life of fate and man he'll be victim no more everything has prepared him for this moment from the Cross to his rebirth depression America through the detention centers and institutions and prisons to dwell among the hopeless in despised to find his apostles and the discarded remnants of the generation of love to teach them that love and hate by the same life and death the same good and evil only illusions with perpetrate upon ourselves who would these insults bear but the promise of another rising a new age of war and regeneration a home home in the valley of death and underground awakening of the conquering loss tried everything has prepared him for this moment the rejected one prince of sorrow he wants died for them and now they will die for him sacrificed for them as they will be sacrificed for him as God did not take from him his cup of sorrows. He will not relieve them. If they won't have his love they will take his hate. They may revile him as they reviled Jesus in the expansiveness of his soul. All things are contained. Love is hate. Endeavors death is life. Charlie will be Charlie but not all of Charlie's disciples feel is comfortable in Death Valley Brooks Poston has broken faith and gone off to work with prospector Paul Crockett and there have been mumblings from some of the women even worse yet chief female recruiter little Paul Watkins takes flight when Charlie insinuates that he might just have to initiate helter skelter himself off since black. People don't seem to have figured it out yet one positive though that Tex Watson has met a small attractive girl named Linda Ca Sabin even convincing her to steal money from a friend and move out to spawn ranch Charlie's happy to take our money and happier still to learn that she is a valid driver's license something something in short supply among the band of recluses her toddler. Tanya is taken off to live with the other family children but Charlie needs more money than Linda's. This theft provides he begins to see a solution in the form of music teacher and Manson family friend Gary Hinman so when the grand jury reconvened on Monday December Assemble Eighth Prosecutor Bouillaud see presented witnesses who provided more evidence against Charlie and the four family members responding officers described describe the scene at Cielo drive and the discovery of a latent print matching tex watson's from his April arrest gun expert Ed Lomax asserted that that the gun handle found at the tate residents belong to a twenty two caliber bunt mind Longhorn revolver Joe Granado of Lapd Scientific Investigations Division gave testimony on the blood evidence and the rope tied around tate and CBN's necks Greg Jacobsen talked about Charlie's Charlie's relationship with Terry Melcher former resident of the property straight Satan biker Danny dicarlo testified he had gone with Manson to buy three strand nylon rope and had witnessed Charlie and text taking target practice with a bunt line twenty two caliber revolver at the spahn ranch. He also confirmed that Charlie frequently wore leather thongs around his neck similar to the ones found tied around lean law Bianca's wrists. It was four seventeen in the afternoon when the grand jury began its deliberations took them only twenty minutes to reach their conclusion Charles Manson. Listen Tex Watson Susan Atkins and Linda Ca Sapien were indicted on seven counts of murder and one count of conspiracy spiracy to commit murder Leslie Van Houten who had been present only at the law Bianca's scene was indicted on two counts of murder and one count of conspiracy commit murder four months after the murders that had shaken Hollywood and the country to its foundation formal charges have been brought against the five suspected killer's. Gary Hinman often supplemented lamented music teacher income by dealing drugs to his to Panga Canyon neighbors. One recent transaction involves thousand tabs of Mescaline that fellow musician Bobby Beausoleil Beausoleil delivers to the straight Satan Motorcycle Club acting as a go-between for Hinman. When the bikers tell bobby the product is substandard and demand their money back Charlie season opportunity. He tells bobby to take Mary Brunner and Susan Atkins over the Henman's place. They are to demand not only the thousand dollars is owed the straight Satans but the money Charlie needs to fund his Death Valley operation when bobby calls a little later. Charlie isn't happy with what here's his. Gary refused so bobby beat him until he signed over ownership of his two cars that might cover what he does the straight Satan and does nothing to satisfy Charlie proceeding yet another betrayal Charlie rides over to Henman's brandishing twenty and sword ord. He demands that Gary turnover everything he owns to the family when Henman protests that he has nothing more to give Charlie slashes him across the face with the sword partially severing his ear Hinman Begs for mercy reminding Charlie that he's always been a good friend of the Family Charlie heads back to spine leaving bobby with instructions not to leave until Hinman has signed over everything. He owns the next time bobby calls. It's with the news that after repeated beatings Gary has failed to come up with any more money and is now threatening to go to the police. It's clear to Charlie what must be done but he decides that him men's death will serve another larger purpose. Charlie prophesied a race. I swore and it shows no sign of happening on his schedule. If bobby can make it look like Gary Hinman was killed by the Black Panthers it might just initiate helter skelter on December Ninth Nineteen Sixty Nine Charles Manson Aka Jesus Christ God was was formerly charged with seven murders occurring at the tate and Law Bianca residences. He listed his address as transient his occupation as the musician on the following day. Susan Atkins Patricia Krenwinkel and Linda Qossaibi were granted continuances before entering their please please. Susan in Patricia treated the core proceedings as if they were a stage on which to act out their own light hearted farce they grinned and giggled in in the face of charges. They butchered seven people in contrast. Linda kosabe seemed close to tears burdened by the weight of events Tex Watson in a Texas jail. Fighting extradition was the only suspect not present on the same day December tenth a gas attendant undented sylmar standard station was trying to fix a running toilet in the restroom when he removed the lid he found a woman's wallet stock on top of the mechanism inside was a driver's license belonging to Rosemary Labianca he phoned the lapd who retrieved the wallet an informed the DA's office. Another part of Susan Atkins story had been confirmed on August eighth. Charlie received some bad news. Bobby Beausoleil has been picked up driving. Gary Hinman stolen car and booked for murder. Though bobby is assured family members he won't talk Charlie's had too much experience with the law to feel comfortable but if there's one thing Charlie has learned earned it's that he can turn even the most disastrous event into yet another signpost toward his destiny and the family rallies to him recoiling at the thought he might have to go on the Lam they toy with breaking bobby out of jail but when Charlie doesn't respond they move onto other ideas didn't in Kabul make it look as if the Black Panthers were responsible for humans death. Charlie recalls didn't he scrawl political piggies on the wall and guarantees. He's blood someone not. Charlie wonders about the possibility of copycat murder. Let the other fellow think the idea is his his isn't that Charlie learned from Dale Carnegie. He nods thoughtfully at the suggestion wondering how exactly that might work work. The family considers the likely chain of events a similar murder with bobby sitting in his cell would exonerate their friend and if the cups thought the Black Panthers were murdering people. They'd have to come down hard on the group. The panthers legendary in their militancy would retaliate retaliate in kind. An escalating series of actions becomes an unstoppable rush toward helter skelter. Yes Charlie agrees if if played right hinman can be initiating spark but the death of a music teacher in Panga hardly merits kind of media fury that could lead to a race war war of course if the Knicks victims were of a higher stature enthusiasm the emerging plan ripples through Charlie's followers. Yes Charlie agrees. The time for helter skelter has arrived though by now. It's impossible to say if he's agreeing with them or with himself. Over here. Fleet on December Eleven Charles Manson flanked by officers towering being over him was led down a corridor to stand before Judge William Keane wearing the buckskin outfit sewn for him by the family girls. He entered the courtroom so packed with reporters. It seemed incapable of housing another body. Charlie seemed comfortable with the attention he was getting as as if unaware of or unconcerned by the difference between celebrity and notoriety the judges signed public defender Paul Fitzgerald to represent represent Charlie though there was no shortage of lawyers positioning themselves for the job was generally assumed that case this consequence in the media center of Los Angeles Angeles could launch a lucrative career Charlie's official not guilty plea would come ten days later and rest on his assertion that his absence from crime scenes absolves him of guilt he would further insist he had never explicitly ordered anyone to be murdered if his family members had taken it upon themselves to kill on his behalf. It wasn't his responsibility for now though Charlie looked around the courtroom and couldn't help smiling he had finally achieved the fame he had so long coveted late on the night of August eighth. Charlie seeks out Tex Watson with months of heavy drug use. She no longer seems James. The affable country boy who gave a ride Dennis Wilson the previous summer now edgy and volatile easy to think of himself as Charlie's right hand hand man to talk for a while speculating on who the perfect target might be it needs to be someone well known famous even to generate the kind of attention. Gary Hinman murder hasn't Texaco caused the house up on Cielo drive where Terry Melcher used to live hasn't Charlie Charlie been up there once yes charlie nods. That would be perfect. Let the other fellow thank the ideas his hands ends Texas twenty two caliber revolver from the Spahn ranch armor in tells them to wear dark clothing he and the others to bring a change of clothes. They'll need wire cutters. There's and rope and knives. Tex would be in charge as befits a man then Charlie goes off to choose the girls Susan because Oh she's crazy do anything pat because she has no life outside the family. Here's no voice but Charlie's and recent recruit Linda and because she has a valid driver's license in case there stopped Texan the three women get into a yellow fifty nine Ford owned by one of the ranch hands Texas behind the Wheel Linda beside him in the passenger seat. Susan and Pat are in the back as the engine roars I to life. Charlie leans down to look through the window do something which he tells them and with that the the car leaves spawn ranch and heads off into the night the events of those two August nights in nineteen sixty nine might never be fully comprehended though it would be a mistake to think of them as incomprehensible the barbarity of the crimes might tempt one to conclude the assailants were insane and their actions actions senseless but even crazy people have reasons. They just have crazy reasons. Did Charlie really believe the crimes would initiate a cataclysmic war between blacks and whites that he and his family would find the bottomless pit where they would wait out the events they had set in motion ocean that they would emerge from their subterranean redoubt. After hundreds of years to rule the world or worthy horrific murders no more than a seasoned ex-cons attempt to lead authorities away from his complicity in the murder of Gary Hinman did his followers. I truly believe Charlie was the second coming of Christ or were they entranced by their own desire to believe we're the infatuated with Charlie early or the idea of Charlie and isn't that what he had done throughout his life let those around him project onto him the vision of saint or sinner savior and deceiver reflecting back to them their own fractured souls charlie could easily really have lived and died in obscurity petty criminal in the shadows of civilization but he found himself in a time and place that mirrored his imaginings imaginings a world on the knife edge of change in that generational upheaval his disciples proved vulnerable to singular singular vision caught between the world that had been and one that never would be to Charlie prison would be a homecoming coming the closing of a circle begun a long time ago and a thousand miles away and there he would remain denied parole a dozen times on Sunday November eighteenth two thousand seventeen having spent sixty five of his eighty three years incarcerated aided Charles Manson died of natural causes. His family members either languishing in prison or aged out at youthful folly. Were not the present. His death serve more as a reminder of his legend than punctuation mark to his life aged and frail. The man who ahead once hoped to initiate helter skelter had become an afterthought to his own persona more pathetic than fearsome more irrelevant relevant than monstrous. The skies did not open. No horsemen appeared. No Sword of fire was observed descending from the heavens he had finally found that bottomless pit. I'm Tracy Patent. This is Hollywood and crime I'm from subscribe to Hollywood in crime on Apple podcasts tune in stitcher or your favorite podcast cast APP to find out more information. Read our episode notes and contact us if you have any questions or comments if you like what you've heard we'd love you to give us a five star rating and review us and be sure to tell your friends and fans of crime. We're counting on you to help us spread the Word Young Charlie is written and directed by Larry Brand Hollywood and crime is created and produced by Rebecca Reynolds John Ponder and Tracy Patent and produced by Jim Carpenter Young Charlie was recorded at the invisible studios West Hollywood California and Blue Room Post in Manhattan Beach California Executive Producers Bene- der and air non Lopez Four one-day.

Terry Melcher Charlie Charlie Susan Atkins Susan Charlie Charlie Charlie Manson Terry Melcher Charles Denton Watson Dennis Wilson Charlie Prophet Charlie L. E. producer Charlie Desk Valley Valley noncommittally Charlie Hollywood helter skelter Sharon Abigail murder Linda
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Young Charlie by Hollywood & Crime

42:42 min | 1 year ago

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"Young charlie by hollywood and crime contains depictions of violence and is not suitable for everyone. Please be advised on november seventeenth nineteen sixty nine. Ronnie howard was waiting for a bus outside sybil brand detention center in downtown l._a. She was due to to appear in a santa monica court on a forgery charge deciding. She couldn't live with herself. If more people were killed by susan atkins or her friends ronnie they had confided to a deputy that her cellmate was responsible for the tate and law bianca murderers. The deputy passed the information onto her superior who didn't and seem interested when ronnie asked again. The deputy told her to just forget about it. Ronnie pleaded with the woman to call the l. a. p. d. herself or more people would die. The deputy had informed her that making a call on behalf of an inmate was against the rules now as she waited for the bus that would take her to santa monica. Ronnie howard got in line with the other women inmates hoping to use the payphone afraid she wouldn't get to the head of the line before the bus arrive. She paid the two girls in front of her fifty cents to cut ahead when she got the l. a. p. d. on the line a homicide officer said he sent a car over to pick her up immediately. Just then the transport bus arrived ronnie told the officer she'd be in court all day and he should send someone on there. Then she hung up the phone she had forgotten to tell the officer which court getting in shape isn't just about losing weight. It's about learning healthier habits and feeling better. We're about yourself whether that's more stamina to keep up with your busy life or being more in tune with your body's needs. 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M. dot com slash l. a. crime one more time noon dot com slash l. a. crime to start your trial today from from wandering. I'm tracy patent with stephen lang today. Hollywood crime presents young charlie. If you're joining us for the first time we recommend you go back and listen to the previous. Episodes will be waiting for you. Today's episode slip. Here's my co host stephen lang. Everything is contained within charlie's philosophy. It's a circle that completes completes itself because he is. It's beginning and its end when he is gentle. The lesson is love and when he yanks on pats hair or gives mary a smack smack. It's obedience. They are lucky to have found him. Amid there aimless wanderings because above all charlie provides them with direction when when mary quits her job they survive the scrounging techniques they learn from the diggers in haight ashbury or they find wayward hippies willing to share their parents credit cards but san francisco summer of love is quickly descending into chaos with the influx of young people needing to be housed and fed by late nineteen sixty seven seven drug overdoses are increasingly common and clinics fight to contain outbreaks of infectious disease peace and love have devolved into drug wars wars and competing glue rooms charlie decides. It's time to start planning for his triumphal return to l._a. And the launch of his musical career in order to make the proper impression he needs an entourage worthy of his talents he has had no luck bringing men into the fold and they would be needed for muscle and technical no no how his plan to use his women as bait as not panned out to plane girls and a skinny redhead our little enticement in a world where sex he's had with a nod and smile all that changes when he meets a former topless dancer named susan atkins. It's at a small party in the hate and charlie is the center of attention strumming his guitar crooning improvised tunes in his quavering voice she locks onto him with laser focus radiating raw sexuality and a willingness to do anything they have sex that night and he whispers in her ear to think of him as her father author she is amazed at how he can spot the broken parts of her and repair them with a word or touch before the night is over. She knows she she will follow him into hell. If he asks her think of me as your father your lover the alpha and omega of all that is an all that will will be on the same day that ronnie howard made her call to the l._a._p._d. Detectives working the law bianca case were interviewing straight satan biker danny decarlo in addition to identifying a photo of the likely murder weapon. Danny recalled a night light in august. When several family members had bragged about killing five piggies the biker provided another helpful detail he had scene three strand nylon cord at the ranch the same kind that had been hide around the necks of sharon tate and j. c. bring while danny was being question question. Another team had tracked down ronnie howard at sybil brand. They were impressed enough by her testimony to have her immediately removed from the cell. She shared with susan. Susan atkins crazy sadie had provided her cellmate with the detail. Only the killer would know the bloody words scribbled at the law bianca bianca home. When the different teams compared notes there were several discrepancies danny decarlo had maintained that no women had gone along on the murder murder spree while susan had claimed that she and two other girls a katie and linda were at yellow dr atkins had also talked about outstanding gary hinman though bobby beausoleil had boasted to decarlo that he had killed the music teacher the details of who had been at which murder seeing we're still fuzzy but detectives now felt confident. They knew the identity of the killers and at least one other matter was cleared up decarlo told investigators. There was another charles in the family. The detectives had heard of a charles montgomery from kitty loot singer and asked if that might that'd be his last name. Danny said it didn't sound familiar but everyone knew the guy s tax by late nineteen sixty seven mary's overjoyed learn she's pregnant. She may never be able to contain charlie spirit that you will always have this part of him. Charlie tells that babies are the only creatures that pure and and in the new world he has said about creating children will be raised to be the free beings are meant to be with their growing family. They trade the v._w. In for an old school who'll bus and paint hollywood production on the side the street corners and dive clubs of behavior might be a place to hone your craft but if you're we're going to be bigger than the beatles san francisco doesn't cut it band after band is realized this big brother and the holding company the jefferson jefferson airplane even the grateful dead charlie knows his destiny lies four hundred miles to the south and that beckoning oasis between desert and and see armed with the name of a producer universal given to him by a fellow inmate charlie piles his expanding family into the school bus <hes> and departs for l._a. Within days they find lodging at the spiral staircase a sprawling house into panga canyon zone makes it available volta l._a. Hippies and hopeful musicians charlie spends his days playing guitar and spouting philosophy with constantly shifting population of houseguests before meeting one with whom he feels an instant kinship bobby bozo land is everything charlie is not young handsome able to attract attract women with barely a word and he's an excellent musician having taught himself guitar as a boy even singing backup for french apple. Charlie immediately only sees him as an asset perhaps even a musical collaborator and with his looks good beaujolais might be able to lure more women into the group. Bobby makes makes it clear. He's not a joiner but the two agreed to stay in touch before taking off with his latest fling bobby introduces charlie to a friend who lives nearby you buy into panga gary. Hinman is a music teacher who deals drugs on the side and is always generous letting people crash at his place <music> vincent bouillaud see was unimpressed the first time i'm he laid eyes on charles manson the leader of the cult known as the family and purported second coming of christ was just over five feet tall slender and slightly stooped he was barely visible past the bodies of the five detectives escorting him from the inyo county jail to court for his arraignment on the arson. Jason charge bearded long-haired dressed head to toe and buckskins. He seemed little discomfited by the handcuffs. When the young deputy wtma district attorney had been assigned prosecution of the tate homicides on november eighteen the police were confident. They knew who the killers were. Susan in atkins had confessed to ronnie howard in virginia graham her cellmates at civil brand she had implicated herself in the murders of sharon tate and her friends as well as the law bianca's and musician gary hinman. They knew that charles was involved almost certainly cult leader manson still in residence at the inyo county jail on the arson theft charges so bully o._c. Had driven out to independence to interview family members lynette squeaky frahm and and sandra good neither admitted any knowledge of the tate labianca or hinman murders spouting little beyond platitudes about love and karma and the incomprehensibility of time bul. Yosi came away with the disturbing impression that he was getting robotic responses. There was a vacancy behind there is they appeared programmed down to their beatific smiles whenever they referred to charlie but bouillaud see also suspected that fear might be a component of their performance confined in the small jail at independence anything they said would likely be passed passed onto other family members the decision was made to transfer five of the girl civil brand and isolate them from each other and from susan atkins in one of the transferees was a slender attractive young woman who had been booked under the name leslie sangsthan so nothing in charlie's first audition indicates his musical gifts will propel him. I'm to superstar status beyond that of the beatles he shows up at universal and proudly escorts producer gary stromberg around his school bus. We fitted it into a living quarters of sorts. The four girls mary lynette pat and susan are there to ply the executive with donuts and hints of sexual availability. Ability stromberg is intrigued by the diminutive musician sway over his little entourage and the women hang on his every syllable eagerly awaiting his next command but when they get into the recording studio. It's clear charlie's out of his element. He seems put off by the technology. Unable to communicate katie's needs to the engineers or respond to their directives and yet stromberg thinks there might be something in charlie's choose he's raw and far from producible lucido album but the world of music is in flux and you never know who might turn out to be the next female. He recommends that charlie keep working on his material curiel and maybe return at later dates. Charlie is not disheartened by the experience but more convinced than ever he needs to follow his own the path they will be someone out there who will understand what he's trying to do and allow him the freedom to do what charlie needs is a benefactor <music> trying to drink more water liquid. 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Tom and enter promo code l. crime to get your savings and start getting better hydration today. That's liquid. Ivy dot com promo code l. a. crime hollywood and crime is brought to you by madison reed be honest. When's the last time you got your hair colored. If you've been putting off getting getting your hair done because of the time and expense of going to the salon i get it for decades. Women have only really had two options for colouring their hair. That's salon trip or unreliable outdated at home color but not anymore crafted in italy by master colourless. Madison addison reed is professional hair color. You can easily do at home. This is multi tonal ammonia free hair-color with ingredients. You can feel good about and women love the results they get with madison reed gorgeous shiny multidimensional healthy looking hair. This is gray covering game changing aging color. You can do at home and look like you just came from the salon and by the way i love this product. My hair has never looked better. Get an expert color consultation or take the color quiz at madison dash re dot com and find your perfect shade listeners of hollywood and crime get ten ten percent off plus free shipping on their first color kit with code l a crime. That's code l. A. crime at madison dash reed dot com. The woman booked in the inyo county. Jail is leslie sangsthan turned out to be leslie van how a californian native who had joined charlie manson's family in the summer of nineteen sixty eight interviewed by l._a._p._d. Sergeant michael again she she decided to play games often giving teasing or flippant responses she would coyly suggests. She knew something then back off and play innocent. It became more of a catch me if you can child's game than an attempt to address possible involvement in multiple murders but deputy d._a. Julio c was naught discouraged. However she tried to obscure the facts. There were pointers tacit admission in what she had to say when asked if she'd heard anything about the tate eight murders she joked that she was deaf and couldn't hear anything but at a later point she would say she had a pretty good idea what had gone on cielo drive when sergeant mcgann suggested charlie was one of five killers at the tate residence leslie corrected him claiming she had heard only four people people were there and charlie wasn't one of them. She had also heard that there were probably more girls than men and one of the girls hadn't killed anyone one. When mcgann asked who the girl was lessee set her name was linda though she didn't know the last name this confirmed what detectives had learned from ronnie howard about a linda who had been present at dr but not the law bianca residents mcgann then showed leslie the mugshots taken at the barker ranch raid raid she identified katie who had been booked under the name mardi reefs and released a few days later the same katie had been arrested back in august at the rate on spahn ranch and giving her name as mary sue scott most significantly leslie confirmed that three girls had gone to the tate residence on the night of august ninth sadie katie and linda by the spring of nineteen sixty eight charlie made more headway and building a cult than a music career. We're constantly in flux with new additions or dropouts. His group of followers has grown to around twenty having moved on from the spiral staircase. He crashes in several of the houses that dot the wooded hills of panga canyon making occasional trips into the stark reaches of the mojave desert by now now he has perfected his technique finding potential converts spotting their fragilities an overwhelming them with his vision of a world in which they would emerge whole and fulfilled all they have to do is let go of their egos fourteen year old diane lake already living on wavy gravy hog farm commune joins charlie with her parents blessing ruth ann morehouse rejoins him after a brief marriage to escape or parents control sandy good another a child of a broken home meets charlie on a trip to l. A. and immediately gives herself over to him in hopes of finding true family and paul watkins. It's a good looking and engaging eighteen year old dropout proves himself a valuable asset attracting more young women of great importance in determining suitability ability to join the group is the girls compliance and allowing charlie complete control over their sexual lives those unwilling to submit to any sexual act with anyone anyone at any time charlie commanded are deemed unlikely to let go of the worldly attachments anchoring them to their prior lives. Lose your ego to gain your true identity under give a name is only another attachment to your pass. Charleen struck stem renaming susan atkins sadie mae glutz the others quickly followed suit as mary brunner becomes mother mary diane lake become snake and ruth and more houses renamed wish pat krenwinkel likes kate. She sometimes uses marnie reams for food. The group goes on scavenging expeditions to local supermarkets searching in dumpsters for still edible produce meat. Sometimes the girls panhandle or ask for donations for made up causes one afternoon in late may pat and one of the newest girls nicknamed yeller are hitchhiking on sunset boulevard car pulls over to pick them up. The driver invites him to his house for cookies season milk before driving them home. The girls are impressed with the guys place a mansion built to resemble a log cabin and when they tell charlie surprised by the strength of his reaction but for charlie this is exactly the turning point. He's been waiting for if ever there is a moment moment. He knows that fate is reaching out to him. This is not the old faith that shunned him at every turn broke his dreams tried to bend him into its will but his reimagined fate the one that bent to his he reveals his moment's hesitation gap like christ ice before him. The flesh is weak. Didn't jesus himself ask that his burden be lifted moments from golgotha but there can be no more doubt no more more hesitation. When you discover that you can will your own fate. The gravest sin is to stray from the path he has come to l._a. In search of a patron trim and his girls have stumbled upon a beach boy greg jacobsen had been impressed by charlie manson though his musical gifts might still have been raw. He was a charismatic figure with his own brand of philosophy. The lyrics to his often spontaneously improvise songs were original even compelling. The police were interested in talking to the talent scout because he had been the one to introduce manson to record producer terry melcher who owned the cielo drive property when l._a._p._d. Sergeant didn't frank patchett asked jacobsen if he knew a family member named charles tex montgomery jacobson nodded but texas last name wasn't montgomery gumri. It was watson on november thirtieth deputy d._a. Julio c ran a check and discovered that charles denton watson had been arrested in van is on a drug charge on april twenty third when watson's fingerprints taken at the time of booking matched one of the layton's found at the tate residents. It was the first piece of physical evidence tying a manson family member to the murders. Teams of detectives were sent out to watsons former addresses addresses with no luck but when they checked his hometown of mckinney texas sheriff. Tom montgomery told them watson was living in a small apartment downtown. In fact the sheriff was well acquainted with charles watson. They were second cousins montgomery. Being a family named tex sometimes used rather than sending officers to pick up the murder suspect sheriff montgomery called texas uncle maurice who picked up his nephew and delivered him to the local jail loser that same sunday sergeant patchett interview terry melcher who confirmed greg jacobsen's account both men had met charlie manson the previous summer at the home of beach boys drummer dennis wilson one night charlie had come along for the ride when wilson drove melcher back to his house though he hadn't gotten martin out of the car manson had at least on one occasion ben to ten thousand fifty cielo drive dennis wilson notices the lights on on in his sunset boulevard home he pulls into the driveway after a long night session at the recording studio considering the constant flow of houseguests at the log cabin mansions mansions renting. There's nothing alarming. This is far more disconcerted however when the back door swings open and small scrappy figure emerges gesticulating being flamboyantly as if welcoming long-awaited visitor concern yields confusion as the man suddenly falls to his knees and starts kissing denison speak then charlie rises with a grin ushering dennis into his own home as if it seems the guest and charlie the host loud music zik in the wafting smell of smoke greek the beach boys drummer as he walked into a party in full blossom pat yeller come over to formally introduce charlie to their unwitting benefactor who relaxes into the flow of the evening never one to turn down sex or drugs dennis grabs a joint watches the topless girls gyrate to the teens blaring from hysteria pretty soon. He's romping in bed with one or two of the girls. Pennock turns into a fine right indeed and in the morning dennis fines half dressed young people wandering his halls and rooms uh-huh helping themselves to breakfast or using his shower. Charlie turns out to be a pretty interesting guy with his philosophy of freedom from earthly attachments us especially family considering dennis's frequent rows with brother brian and other bandmates. It's a welcome message. Charlie isn't shy i about describing himself as a singer songwriter in search of a recording contract well if his music is anywhere near as good as as wrap this just might be denis's mrs chance at a creative reverse ever since the beatles toppled the beach boys on the record charts. The brothers have been feuding. Could charlie provide a way out of of dennis's musical doldrums by the end of the morning. Dennis begins to consider the possibility that picking up those two hitchhikers might just be the best thing what's happened to him in a long time. Yes he will try to help. Charlie and maybe charley can help him. Dennis decides to make a call greg. Jacobsen is exactly the guy who could get charlie on track. Uh deputy district attorney bouillaud see felt confident that three of the tate labianca killer's were behind bars though none had as yet been formally charged charged in those crimes to other female suspects were still at large linda whose name detectives had learned was kosabe. Ian was rumored to be living in a commune in new mexico and marnie reeves aka. Mary sue scott aka katie was believed to be on a farm outside mobile alabama on sunday november thirtieth attorney richard cobb. A euro who was representing susan atkins in the gary. Hinman murder trial paid eight the prosecutor of visit. He wanted to know what kind of deal might be in the offing for his client. In the tate and law bianca cases julio c told him that if susan susan agreed to be a witness for the prosecution they would let her plead guilty to second degree murder she would receive a life sentence but avoid the death penalty cub. A euro eero took that offer to his client but susan wavered he presented her with the evidence the state had turned over and discovery advise that she would likely be convicted and sentenced. It's to death. Susan said she might be willing to testify before a grand jury but not at trial against manson and other family members it appeared appeared. She had not lost faith in the man claiming to be the second coming of christ at first talent scout greg jacobsen seems more taken with charlie's female adherents than with his music charlie picks up on and make sure ruth and more houses available anytime greg comes around dennis wilson has lost none of us enthusiasm for his defacto facto house guest and potential musical collaborator. He brings charlie into audition for brother records. The companies formed with the beach boys to discover new talent <music>. Charlie's is not the kind of talent that might impress the team who are as irritated by his attitude odor as they are by his lack of discipline and professionalism. Nobody other than dennis sees anything commercially viable in this unkempt minstrel or his rather primitive tunes dennis. Mike continued to tout his new proteges gifts. As poet philosopher the wizard who is both god and the devil the other beach boys hope dennis will soon lose interest greg jacobsen also see something and charlie though it isn't exactly what charlie has hoped yes there might be some musical ability there to be cultivated by the ripe looser but what impresses greg most about charlie is the new societies constructing in the desert outside l._a. When new recruits sandy good discovered discover the spahn ranch it seems an ideal location for charlie's growing congregation and they began the process of relocating used as a western set that for t._v. Shows like bonanza. Gunsmoke spun was close enough to civilization to provide supplies but isolated enough to clear voices that might conflict flicked charles jacobson this tiny band of nomads leaving freely and spontaneously in the shadow of mercantil excess seems the fulfillment l. filament of a culture intent on redefining itself he approaches his friend record producer terry melcher with the idea of funding documentary three about charlie and his disciples whom he now refers to as the family the movie never goes beyond a few canisters of film shot at the ranch but the name sticks for jacobson and melcher and dennis wilson charlie's desert tried has become the family on december first sheriff. Tom montgomery of mckinney texas told the los angeles d._a.'s office that unless he received an arrest warrant within two <music> hours he would set his cousin tex watson free vincent bouillaud see hurry down to file official charges against watson in the tate murders before before the deadline expired by now it had been learned that joseph krenwinkel had secured the release of marnie reeves following her arrest at the rate on spahn ranch back in august marnie reeves aka mary sue scott aka katie turned out to be patricia krenwinkel of inglewood california. Yeah joseph cooperated with police telling them. His daughter was staying with her aunt in mobile alabama within hours mobile authorities were at the ants door for but we're told patricia wasn't home as the two officers drove away. They noticed a girl in another car quickly. Pull her hat down to hide her face. The car was stopped and patricia. Krenwinkel was arrested for the california homicides by early afternoon december. I the only suspects suspects still at large was linda sapien the following day qossaibi and turned herself into authorities in concord new hampshire. She admitted she'd been present at the tate eight home and had witnessed the murders but claimed she hadn't participated in them. She waive extradition and was flown back to los angeles by the evening evening of december third. Authorities were confident that the five individuals responsible for the tate and law bianca killings were all behind bars. It all seems to be coming together. Charlie the fadi once cursed for its cruelties not has been as benefactor. He now realizes toughening for the road to jerusalem. It's the fool who count his blessings and gives thanks. The wiseman counts his hardships in the knowledge that it's the wounds and obstacles that four german so without prison would never have encountered the pimps and hustlers who gave him the tools to gather his lost tribe without the pain and isolation of his childhood he would never have gained insight on how to transcend both every fall. All step is a lesson every slight a blessed by late nineteen sixty eight charlie splitting time between dennis wilson's log cabin mansion attention and the spahn ranch. He's got squeaky. Attending to old george spawns needs and he's free together as troop of lost children for l._s._d. Fueled fueled blessings on what life will be like in the coming age of charlie and it isn't only these wayward travelers who sense the greatness in him when neil young comes by the log cabin one afternoon. The two of them have an impromptu jam session in young walks away impressed. Charlie has an amazing amazing ability to generate lyric. Spontaneously young later tells a warner brothers producer. Though nothing comes of it denison greg jacobsen keep working on terry melcher to let charlie audition terry like greg before him seems more interested in ruth and more house than in the performer destined to be a bigger than the beatles but greg has come through for charlie looking him session in a van nuys recording studio charlie walks away with some tapes to to pass around to anyone willing to listen dennis thinks charlie's original tune ceased to exist something he can work with the prospect of being of beach boy collaborator peaks charlie sense of hope and expectation. It's not solo career. He's imagine but it's a step in that direction. Attorney richard kobe era had cut a good deal for his client. If susan atkins pins agree to testify before the grand jury the government would not seek the death penalty nor would her testimony used against her any co defendants at trial kobe euro had recorded. Her confession played it for bouillaud see and several of the detectives on the tape. Susan described the two night murder spree with the same aimed. Casualness asked for ice cream with her dinner for the first time investigators learned that manson had not gone to see yellow drive but had sent susan tex watson patricia krenwinkel and linda casse abyan. Susan admitted to stabbing vojtech for cow sqi but claimed it wasn't wasn't self defense. When it came to sharon tate her story had changed from what she told cellmates howard in virginia graham now it was tex ex- watson who'd stab the pregnant sharon while susan held her the following night manson accompanied them as they drove around looking for a suitable target this this time family members leslie van houten and steve grogan came along with kosabe behind the wheel after looking at several potential murder sites. They found themselves himselves at the law bianca residents. The only connection seemed to be next door neighbor. They had met on one or two occasions drug parties. Charlie gained entry to the house and tied the couple up then he returned to the car and told watson krenwinkel and van houten to go inside and kill them and that was it in a two hour tape sadie mae glutz detailed the murderous events of those two nights in her high pitched little girl's voice giggling as she described sharon tate's last moments sharon went through quite a few changes. She laughed quite a few changes so it isn't a greg jacobsen jacobson fails to see the darker side of charlie beyond the fuzzy talk of spiritual awakening and losing one's ego charlie drops hints of the racial chill and political strife. He believes about to engulf america. There are forces loose in the cities and towns that are alien to the peace and love that so enraptured the post post world war two generation charlie disdains the middle class origins of these kids and recoils at the label allowed to be attached to them through popular culture. His people are not hippie. He says but slippy sub population of young people who've slipped through the cracks on wanted and unwashed unwashed foreigners in their own homes as far removed from their peace nick brethren as dark his from he has no use for generation of slumming posers able to return to their comfortable lives whenever they choose they tacitly accept society's values even as they flout them their indulgence indulgence and free sex and drugs is much shock their parents as out of a real understanding that freedom means to give up everything to die that you may live. Isn't that what the bible teaches. Jacobson isn't put off by. Charlie's rance doesn't take them all that seriously in the next instant charlie will slip back into his crooner crooner masking belt out an impromptu tune. You never knew which charlie you're going to get but he always held your interest around those. He feels the need to impress. Charlie can be anything you want him to be on the witness stand before the grand jury susan atkins described the activity known to the family as creepy crawling members would dress in dark clothes and sneak into random houses in the dead of night taking care not to wake the occupants they would move silently through the house sometimes rearranging changing things so in the morning the people would know they're space had been invaded then deputy district attorney vincent bugliosi asked about the night of august ninth. Susan said that charlie had instructed her and the other women to each bring a knife in a change of clothing and do whatever tex watson told them to once in the car tax said they were going to a house that had once belonged to terry melcher they were to take any money they could find and kill who ever was in the house when they got to ten thousand fifty yellow dr techs shimmied up a coal and cut the phone lines then they parked down the street and walked back up the hill concern the gate might have an alarm. They scurried up an inclined to access the property as they started toward the house. A car came down the driveway toward them. Text ordered the driver to stop susan heard four shots and when they passed the car she could see the thing slumped across the front seat. The grand jury caught their breath is bullying o._c. Asked for clarification. When you say thing you are referring to a human being yes said susan atkins a human being. She went on to tell the jurors that linda kosabe remained outside as tex entered the house through an unlocked mocked window then opened the front door for susan and pat krenwinkel vojtech for kaczynski was sleeping on the couch. He opened his eyes as they approached. It seemed to think they were more of sharon's friends until tex pointed the gun at him. Vojtech asked who he was. I'm the devil said tex watson then and i'm here to do the devil's work next next time on young charlie coming down fast. Charlie is convinced that the beatles are speaking to him directly through their lyrics guiding in his every move following the murder of panga canyon music teacher gary hinman charlie decides to initiate helter skelter on friday night august eighth nineteen sixty-nine he sends tex watson and three of the family women to a house on yellow drive in the hollywood hills he leans into the car window and tells them to do something this is hollywood and crime from wondering subscribe to hollywood and crime on apple podcasts tune in stitcher or your favorite podcast app to find out more information formation read our episode notes and contact us if you have any questions or comments if you like what you've heard we'd love you to give us a five star rating and review us and be sure to tell your friends and fans of her crime. We're counting on you to help us. Spread the word young charlie is written and directed by larry brand hollywood in crime is created and produced by rebecca reynolds john ponder and tracy patent and produced by jim carpenter. Young charlie was recorded at the invisible studios. How's west hollywood california and blue room post in manhattan beach california executive producers bennett dare or non lopez four one three.

dennis wilson charlie charlie manson susan atkins sharon tate susan susan murder bianca hollywood Ronnie howard terry melcher charles watson sadie katie greg jacobsen beatles producer gary hinman ruth ann morehouse dennis dennis wilson
The Beach Boys (Part 1): An Endless Summer, LSD, Orgies, Charles Manson and a Steve McQueen Man-Crush

DISGRACELAND

46:10 min | 8 months ago

The Beach Boys (Part 1): An Endless Summer, LSD, Orgies, Charles Manson and a Steve McQueen Man-Crush

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Two huge major remodels homeadvisor connects you to the right pro for the right job seconds and even helps you get a fair price. Price read reviews check. Project Cost Guides appointments at homeadvisor dot com or download. The free homeadvisor APP to start your next project. They graceland is a production of iheartradio in double Elvis Media Stories about the beach boys specifically about their drummer. Dennis Wilson are insane. He lit himself on fire. got into a fistfight with the singer and his ban on Stage in front of thousands partied with Steve McQueen and befriended and helped support unbeknownst to him one of the most notorious serial killers of all time. Dennis Wilson was the handsome Sunny California surf. Kid Who Brian Wilson. His Big Brother wrote all those beach boy songs about but he was also consumed by drugs. Eggs alcohol and darkness. Much of that darkness was due to his relationship with Charles Manson and his guilt over the brutal murders of Sharon Tate. Jay Seabrook in all who were felled by Manson psychotic homicidal rage but Dennis Wilson made great music that music. You heard at the top of the show. That wasn't using great music. That was a preset loop from my mellow tron called monkey a grind M. K.. One I've played you that loop because I can't afford the rights needs to the year. Twenty five twenty five by Zieger and Evans and why would I play that specific slice of future zero doomed cheese. Could I afford it. Because because that was the number one song America on August Eighth Nineteen Sixty nine and that was the day. Charles Manson's killers crept into the house of Dennis Wilson's friends to commit one of the most gruesome murders in American history and act that had countless consequences but for the beach. Boys forever put to rest the notion of author Sunny Innocence Marking Authority the beginning of the end for one of the biggest bands in the plant on this episode. Few Chiro cheese the the beach boys. Dennis Wilson Charles Manson and the end innocence. I'm Jay Brennan disgraced Off Sam Cooke had been dead for almost four years but it's Cherry. Red Ferrari was very much alive and at the moment in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight. Its new owner. Dennis Wilson of the beach boys was using it to tear the ASS. Off of the two lane blacktop on on the PCH. Dennis downshifted the ferraris powerful engine. As soon as he saw them to hippie girls one pregnant both attract young with their thumbs outstretched on the side of the road pacing backwards slowly. We cut off. Jeans stems days bare feet visible dirt on their skin. Loose flower children. Blouses matted hair sexiest faulk the Dennis slow the car to the curb copped up in the passenger side door. Both girls hopped in Dennis Flash GAZILLION. What each smile he'd be hearts melted first gear? It's all right second year out of sight. Spinning tires spitting sand squealing rubber. It in no time. They're appalling driveway. But it was well understood before the Front Door Demonstrates Sunset Boulevard Bachelor pad even opened. They were gonNA fuck and so they did. And for Dennis one of Hollywood's most notorious Dickman sex was revelatory. It tapped into something within him that he didn't know it was there since splitting with his wife Carol. The sex tennis have been having as late despite its randomness despite its wildness it grown step rupees. He's hitchhiking hippies aspiring starlets even bona fide stars. Catherine Deneuve Jane Seymour. Goldie Hawn among them. He had been having so much sex so often with with so many different partners that it all seemed to blend together in nineteen sixty eight. Sex for Gemma's Wilson was more like masturbation ordinary row pogues but sex. These filthy hippies was something else entirely. It was like they'd been trained by master Sir but not just decayed either. Dennis was lost in the Najah. Kwok completely out of his head. To The unenlightened his State during sex could be described as being unconscious. But as the enlight indesit contrarian gurus is the teachers in the seekers the Maharishi Girgis and that fucking blockhead cousin of his in singer singer in his band Mike love as they would all agree. It wasn't unconsciousness peak consciousness. It was more than sex transcended when it was over. Dennis wiped himself off through on his jeans and t shirt and split for his brother. Brian's studio he had a recording session that he told the girls to hang tight of his pad he'd be back around to a couple of hours in nineteen sixty eight the beach boys were in a tenuous day they had experienced near immediate chart topping success when they hit the scene in nineteen sixty three but by sixty eight all the vertigo of their ride to the top but finally hit hit and they were really inspired by Dennis's genuine embodiment of the southern California surfer life filtered through the musical genius of his older brother. Brian Guided guided to their initial recording contract by the Wilson Brothers overbearing. Meddling Father Murray the beach. Boys had built the thrown out of Surf Rock on the West Coast of America. Just does the Beatles were building their own parallel thrown out of Britpop on the west coast of England and then almost simultaneously both bands transcended their pop roots roots shed their skins and remade themselves as counter cultural visionaries Murray. The old man was out as manager. So were the skinny ties and candy striped matching matching suits. Brian's compositions grew more operatic and experimental sixties. Or at least what we talk about when we talk about the sixties had arrived by mid decade. The mutual admiration society between the beach. Boys and the Beatles have produced several of the greatest records of all time the Beatles rubber soul inspired the beach. Boys pet sounds pet. Sounds inspired the Beatles. Sergeant Pepper's lonely hearts club band. Brian Wilson's artistic correspondence with the artists. He considered considered his peers resulted in some of the greatest music of the twentieth century. and not just his own. That is the very definition of cultural influence in the beach. Boys caught away when we're sitting on top world of air gets thinner when you're up that high. In Brian's constant need to fight five grabbed left and headed he had always been a sensitive soul but the demands of the throne of creative genius led him from that transcended high and something scare area. Weirder more paranoid extensive drugs. LSD experimentation and all the other rights of sixties rock royalty had unlocked greater volatility ability invulnerability and primal since fertile. Creative mind when the result of that was brian literally living in indoor sandbox was troubling civilised released but when the result was something like good vibrations the peer piece of Pop synthesis intended as a prototype for the sound the beach boys with achieve on their next -ticipant masterpiece album smile. Well one good. Vibrations forgave a lot of endure. Sandboxes Ryan called the song a teenage aged symphony to God. It was more tender loving care than three minute. More impressionist paintings. An assembly line product. It was born out of a library of individual sounds Brian and categorized by feeling he used them as brush throws to recombine the track. That most likely made Paul McCartney sees jealousy. Listen and yet Bryan have become too anxious to perform live as he dug in to record the album he became increasingly recruiter. He suffered outright delusions. That songs were causing terrible events out in the real world. The mind fuck was too much for the release of smile was cancelled cancelled making it one of. It's not the most notorious unreleased album in the history of pop on a business level with mood. Brian Wilson was either having a nervous nervous breakdown or he was such a sensitive soul that he was having a premonition of things lurking out there in the darkness of the future while Brian Wilson spiraled. Dennis Wilson partied the beach. Boys next three album smiley smile wild honey and friends were received received with disappointment both critically and commercially each album. had its moments particularly wild honey where the ban seemed to remember what the Beatles never forgot the at their core stripped of all the Hippie Zeitgeist artifice they were always just a little rock and roll band. Perhaps it wasn't fully appreciated at the time. The fact the band's creative turns south was due to Brian's mental health but regardless they're canceled performance at the Monterey pop festival in Nineteen Sixty seven dealt undeniable public blow to the reputation and relevance yet here. Dennis Wilson was in nineteen sixty eight trying in his way anyway to keep his and his brothers. Brian and Carl Wilson's endless. Summer of Love Jima live jamming that afternoon at Brian's working on the next album with two dirty hippie sex pots waiting dating back home for him record. Sales were down but so what was all good piece. La and lots of sex and his brothers loved him for most people loved him for it. Dennis was the type of guy who showed up and left work with a smile on his face. Charismatic isn't strong enough word positive to his core. You're back then. He seldom had a negative word to say about anyone. Except of course for Mike. Love the beach boys by this point were splitting into two camps camp one. The brothers Wilson. Brian Carl and their fierce defender and loyal brother. Dennis and everyone else Mike Guitar Style Giardina Bryans Road Replacement Bruce Johnston the latter camp endeavored to keep the wheels on and ensure the band remained profitable creatively satisfying endeavor worth. Everyone's time. The former camp pat well less formal intention was clouded by a reservoir of alcohol. St Beach Boys fans divide themselves amongst these camps as well with those who consider themselves serious aficionados aligning with team Wilson. They harbor real contempt for Mike Love and company Brian. The sensitive drugged out creative creative genius is viewed as the vulnerable mark for the straight. As an Arrow machiavellian. Mike love who throughout the history of the band seen as being guilty further greatest creative transgressions discretions Kokomo anyone paging Mr John. stamos Uncle Jesse. You're late for the GIG but this way too simple explanation. The beach boys pretty much. Since their inception were total mess creatively financially. Personally every which way in a large part of that mess was created created and sustained by Brian. Carl Dennis Wilson. Not that the Mike love camps hands were totally clean but mike love is was more than a creative boogeyman human more than a necessary. Evil much more. He was a great singer and astute lear assistance skilled songwriter. Who brought out some of the best and his cousin? Brian Wilson and in a lot of ways Mike. Love was the engine that motored the beach boys forward through blow after devastating blow without Mike love and to a lesser degree. Without Bruce Johnston the beach boys would have ceased to exist a long time ago. Maybe that wouldn't have been such a bad thing. I get why people would think that way. But I don't there'd it'd be no wild honey either. Way I digress. Back to Dennis Wilson in the hippie sex pots. The session was dragging. Brian was stuck Dennis Board. He bounced eagerly headed home for what he hoped would be another round of mind-bending sex with the two hitchhikers. He left back at his place. The one that called herself no joke Cinderella and the other one Katie Dennis. His car the driveway at one. Four four zero zero sunset boulevard killed the engine and made his way up the stairs to his patio entrance. He felt the California nightmare shift. Suddenly there was a chill and then he saw something ominous and stopped short on the stairs. There a few feet in front of him was a small mean looking man along long hair standing in the light of his doorway. He was shoveled dirty. The medicine is dilated. Pupils was immediately evident. In fact his is seemed seemed to roll around inside of his head as he stood there near still but oddly somehow pulsating his body his lips clinched his cheekbone stretched themselves themselves up the sides of his face and pressed his eyes into that insane rolling spell. There were now casting. The short man's chest heaved slowly as he stood moving moving ever so slightly not bouncing not rocking. Not Quite shifting but definitely moving softly almost seem to the Dennis hovering his hours obvious was dark compelling which Dennis spoke i. Are you going to hurt me. The short man spoke spoke at the option was definitely on the table. Do you want me to you brother. Dennis stood silent. His heart beating rampant. Triple stroke roll. Total fear fear. It was clear that he didn't want the short man to hurt him. That is the short MANTECA step toward Dennis. Dennis Lee back impulsivity but otherwise remains still his heartbeat repeat quickened more fear and then the short man dropped to his knees and began kissing. Dennis Wilson's feet. Dennis was still in shock. Doc when the man finally stood and looked up say welcome home brother. My name is Charlie Stephen Queen loved. Ns Wilson as much as the workings of Steve McQueen's Holy Hetero mind would allow allow love another man. Anyway Steve. Like Dennis was one of Hollywood's biggest hands notoriously sleeping with as many as two women a day while on set shooting his films. This is somehow unbelievable. Gross impressive and sat all the same time free love and a lot of things to a lot of people. But the guys like Steve McQueen and Dennis Wilson rich famous handsome beyond compare. It meant something entirely different. The opportunities for promiscuous sex were endless but Dennis Wilson was learning that nothing is indeed free. Denison Steve were hanging out behind the mobile station. Up on the P. C. H.. which it was their spot they meet up Denison? His Ferrari Stephen his Mustang smoke weed drop acid and calibrate their engines before dragging California's iconic onic route one. The two great Steve could care less about the beach. Boys are who Dennis was the to common interests in Dennis was easy going and obviously didn't give a shit about who Steve McQueen the movie star was. The Guy knew a lot about fast motorcycles. Faster cars and even more about fast women and that's suited Dennis. Who is in the market for some advice? The gonorrhea was killing him. At least it felt that way anyway. Charlie's girls would become a real pain literally. Dennis had no oh idea which when he contracted the St from Cinderella Katie or Marnie or Sadie made gypsy or blue yellow or yellowstone. Or whatever. Her real name was they all had it and the billy ended up forking over to the Beverly Hills doctor for the penicillin shots was upwards of one thousand dollars. It wasn't just the clap Charleena's girls else had sapped Dennis have about one hundred thousand dollars in cash food clothes. You name it. After all he was a famous rock star and they had nothing and they were basically sand people then is the Ben to their place in Death Valley. The old movie ranch owned by that blind pervy cowboy George Spahn. It was bleak other than some ramshackle Michael old sets to sleep in. There was next to nothing there except privacy which was of course needed for Charlie and his girls the family as they called themselves to freak week out on LSD orgy it up in tune into whatever hoodoo Guru vibes. Charlie was laying down at the moment one day while a record spawn on on the house. Stereo Charlie started preaching. How in a good song with the write lyrics? You were transported to the state where you could see yourself in. The whole world reflected a million different ways at the same time like the song was a prison. A good song could bring the past back to life or show you the future harmless hippie talk but Dennis thought of his brother's struggles and delusions trying to make smile and felt that strange chill again then. Charlie looked at the room was ripley. Charlie asks what if all of life is like that all the time. What if you're the prison? You would have the power to do anything. We would all have the power to know ourselves as God and all we have to do is just listen then. He tweeted his finger in his ear violently. And it broke spouse Charlie. Manson was something else man. Dennis had never seen anything like except for maybe Steve McQueen Charlie was born the son of a gangster in Steve the son of a prostitute. Do they both had charisma for days. In a long string of women ready and waiting for them whenever they want it. But unlike Steve Charlie didn't know shit about cars other than steal them he didn't really know shit about music either that we pretended to. He fancied himself a musician. Anyway it was part of his whole profit wrap that he laid on anyone who would the Senate in the beginning. That is Wilson's years were wide open. Charlie seemed like he was on to something genuinely like a real guru. Dennis is soulless cousin. Mike Glove had the Maharishi and transcendental meditation so Dennis Would Have Charles Manson and his improvised tantric stick. It seemed like a good deal for Dennis assize. Manson had better pushing the Maharishi. So dentists encouraged Charlie and his music and Charlie was eager to tap into dentist. Music industry connections. This is at a time. When the beach boys had set up their own record label brother records with a distribution deal with their major label capitol records in in order to promote and sell more cutting edge and experimental artists? Dentist Thought Charlie would be a great fit. His brothers Brian. Carl did not share enthusiasm. Awesome and neither do Bruce Johnston her Alger team. And of course for my glove Charles. Manson was a hard now. Charlie wouldn't be dissuaded. He has girls went on living at Dennis. Place Partying ponding all dentist shit off cash when he wasn't looking to the girls wrecked one of Dennis's cars which is not ensured. It was a parasitic shit. Show by the end of the summer. Dennis Wilson have been built by the freeloaders to the tune of one hundred grand. Despite all of this and for the reasons nobody really knows perhaps because of the power influence Charles Manson's personality or because of the sheer amount of LSD. Dentist was taking time. Dennis MS tried setting up Charlie with his influential friend and producer of birds. Terry Melcher Dennis brought Charlie up to Terry's place at ten zero five zero. CMO drive the Hollywood hills. Where Terry was living with his movie? Star girlfriend candice. Bergen for an audition. Terry her charlie singing play. He was not impressed. I like Mike love for Terry Melcher Charles. Manson was a definite pass. Manson was pissed embarrassed. Dennis was positive as usual usual producers other opportunities. He assured Charlie Charlie seemed twitchy than usual. We'll be right back after this word Word Word Were Ben Bullen here co host of the podcast stuff. They don't want you to know and ridiculous history iheartradio has partnered with Fedex to bring you some of the best content of the holiday season from some of the biggest podcast around like stuff. You should know a- guarantee could find one violent incident about the Atari cartridge a a bet. You couldn't stuff you missed in history class. and He loves to drink. And he'll bestow some of his wisdom on people who offer him why I like that aspect effective him tech stuff. It was at the Menlo Park facility were Johnson developed string lights and these were lights that were wired together in series and serve serve as the basis for Christmas lights. Just moving forward from that point and my show stuff. They don't want you to know we have a ton of truckers in our audience and people people who work in shipping so first off. You are unsung heroes. Thank you very much for keeping this strange house of cards from collapsing. It's the most wonderful time of the ear for holiday content presented by Fedex. Check out the holiday episodes from these titles as well as stuff to blow your mind bring stuff stuff mob never told you a two part Hart episode from Ridiculous History on the iheartradio APP or wherever you get your podcast. Want to talk to you about best fees. His best fiends is a mobile puzzle. Game that I've been unable to put down since they sent it to me. I've become obsessed at this thing. David Bowie became obsessed with the E pop. As you know in order to create disgrace had my head stuck in the books constantly reading about the seedier darker side of life this game. Best fiends has become my go-to pallet cleanse. It's opposite of dark. It's visually stunning and keeps my brain. Sharp in out of the soul sucking Internet void. Best fiends is in in adult puzzle. Game that brings you into another world challenges you and keeps you engaged. The world defined herself maneuvering through best fiends is the vibrant electric colorful world of bugs. which for me is added bonus because my son is obsessed with bugs right now? This is as unique puzzle experience. You'll find which is why best fiends has been downloaded noted over one hundred million times. Download it yourself and hit me up on social media. Let me know where you're at how you're advancing through the world's best. I've been playing in train stations and airports airports for four days. Now and I'm already level thirty. You don't need the Internet to play best. Fiends is great for traveling for keeping your mind. Active and fresh ended updates monthly with new content. So it never gets boring. Engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of characters. Download this five star mobile puzzle game on the apple APP store and Google. Google play for free. That's friends without our best fiends. The knife flashed utter Charlie's pocket in an instant and Charlie waved it all round room crazy like a shit house rat. He aimed at the vocal booth. Then wielded towards Dennis right next to him in the control room pressed it to his throat. The blade was warm on his neck. The fear was cold in his veins. Dennis froze and felt that now familiar. Charlie chill ride is fine. If I hear one more fucking note from you who I swear man respect the prison fockers. He then put the knife away. Everyone acted as if this is somehow cool. Dennis included This Shit Charlie's twitching. It had doomed his shot at a record. Deal with Terry Melcher. Who had seen right through his psycho? Delic Manic Guru Act polling is in the studio neglecting advice from seasoned rockstars. Who for some reason believing you were clear indicators? Of what a pain in the ass working with this dude would have been for someone like Maushire. But the clincher was that Charles. Manson just wasn't very good. He could barely sing and play guitar at the same time. He wasn't practiced in anything. Really really other than bullshitting and Terry Melcher was a pro. He knew better. Fuck this guy but Dennis. Wilson wasn't so easily dissuaded him UH in the summer of nineteen sixty he went back and forth between one and two do right by Charlie Getting Charlie and the girls out of his life Steve McQueen was firmly advising Dennis to walk away. Nice to the throat. Aside no pushy was worth a hundred grand erotic package. Dennis was slow to listen. He brought Charlie early in the girls into the studio to try to get something down himself. There was nothing short of a nightmare. The recording session devolved into an origin. The results of which for captured on tape and to this day of never been hurt and aside from occupying a rather large swath of music histories collective imagination. They are buried somewhere deep. Deep in the Beach Boys Vol they cease to exist which was the title of the Charles. Manson song ceased to exist. The Dennis Wilson decided to purchase off of his just wild. I've guru friend in one last desperate attempt to propel the griffin profit out of his life of hippie squalor into music industry stardom cease to who exist the simple folk blues number that Manson penned about. Well who the fuck really knows was purchased by Dennis Wilson for one hundred thousand dollars in a BSA. Maury recycle the Charlie coveted for use at Spahn ranch market. Two hundred grand out the window into Manson family coffers dentist dentist brought the track record that the beach boys passing it off as original song he'd written once they had the track in the studio Dennis. Unusually engaged in the process. Assist get down to arranging and producing the track with his brothers. Brian and Carl and the rest of the group. They modified the field from traditional blues to something more pop- more of a psychedelic ballot. That only the beach boys and they're tremendous harmony singing along. With Brian's arrangement prowess could pull off they authored. Charlie's lyrics ceased as to exist became cease to resist and a bridge was added to avoid them. Not any of Manson's original finally title was changed from the League cease to exist to the hippies AK Saudi never learn not to love and the results were pretty stellar. The track is a couple of words. fucking awesome awesome. It was featured as a b side to December nineteen sixty eight beach. Boys single blue birds over the mountain. It was later featured on the beach. Boys up twenty twenty. The the SL charted and the B. side was met with positive reviews but Charles Manson was not impressed. In fact quite the opposite he was furious he was incensed. The Dennis. Wilson Hippie stoner surfer Twad. He was who changed his lyrics. Who the Fuck Dennis Wilson? Think he was Charlie Gave him specific instructions on how the beach boys would record his song. The song at a message man. The song had meaning who was supposed to change minds melt hearts. It's it was part of the master plan. Couldn't they see that. Didn't they know that. Of course they fucking celebrity come chiefs sucking at the T- to these stablishment trying to pretty his song up and weasel their way into the purse of teenage America's Mom. They've changed his fucking lyrics man and his rhythm and the title was changed as well. And whose idea was the to add a fucking bridge must have been Dennis's half with brother Bryant and to top it all off. He wasn't even credited. Dennis was listed a songwriter. That torture Leah. Were really pissed them off. What really is gears? Grinding was the fact that the track wasn't even a side it was the b-side an afterthought a bit part heart a walk on greatness adjunct fucking side show a sidecar drafting along next Steve McQueen sixty one triumph bullshit Charles Manson. You played second fiddle to know man Charles. Manson was the fucking man and the God damn son of man all at the same time. When Charlie heard the song on the radio radio he high tailed it over to Dennis place by now? Dennis taking his buddy seized advice and moved out of his Sunset Boulevard home abandoning to Charlie. This girl's else stopped paying rent and was just waiting for their inevitable eviction. He knew historic. Charlie was above. The song wanted no part of mass and short temper in the knife to the throat in the studio was one thing but there were rumors going around that were particularly unsettling to Dennis the internal chattering and whispering the Manson Manson family that he picked up here and they're losing further and further touch with reality. Charlie's vision of seeing prophecy music had led to a bizarre obsession session with the Beatles. so-called white album which was just released the month before now. Charlie had a manic focus on producing record of his own and didn't understand stand but it reminded him very much. Brian's mental health struggles. Only Brian Wilson was a much gentler soul. Charlie Track Tennessee down at his new policies apartment. He stormed the front steps and began beating on the door. Excessively Dennis was in no mood. He'd been up for days. High on cocaine came and the countdown had left in coke. Depressed dejected hung over missing his wife. Carol missing his kids his little boy in his toddler daughter order bombed about the current state of his ban blown way the fuck off the charts by the white album pissed off as always at Mike love and above all ornery at the lack of transcendence and sending sex. He was missing out on now that he'd extricated himself from the Manson family. He opened the door. Non Plus the fine just what he expected. While died Charlie Manson standing there in front of doing this. I'm so fucking crazy things. What do you want Charlie? Charlie was quick to the point. He pulled the bullet out of his pocket. Now that up Dennis's face you see this man you see this dentist had nothing. He was a bit wild eyed himself at this point fed up with Charlie's act in too damn hung over to be scared. Yeah so you see this man. This bullet man this is for you and every time you look at it man I want you to think of how nice it is you. Kids are still saying it was the mention of his kids that set him off something in him. Snapped and Dennis Wilson proceeded to kick the shit out of Charles Manson. I A right to the face. Charlie fell back on his ass. Stunned into stillness. Dennis went full thorough. Papa Bear Kicking Charlie in the gut in the ribs in the head. Charlie tried getting up while backing away on the ground. Crab walking backward from Dennis. WHO's kicks were endless by now? Dennis's guests the remnants of the the previous night's Cope Party his friends Terry Melcher and some others were up out of their stupor behind. Denison the doorway taking the scene their friend the Passive Beach Vom Hippie beating the Snot of angry Google Dwarf and they were laughing. Dennis finally stopped. Charlie got up. Dennis said nothing. Charlie stared at him wounded. Trade peon angry his eyes widen and pulled back deeper into his sockets. The corners of his lips pulled themselves back into a demonic half smile. He raised his eyes for tennis shoulder and saw Melcher and a few others in the doorway. Smiling stifling their laughter safer Refu- escaping giggles and darting is to avoid contact with the angry. VIOLENT DWARF JESSICA. His ass kicked by hungover pacifist for Charlie. The humiliation allegation was quick and cutting and way worse than the pain of the beating itself. Charlie began walking backward. He shouted to Dennis. You're a thief and up toward Melcher but to no one in particular. What are you looking at? You don't know me you can't know me. Don't look at me like that man. Don't feel sorry sorry for me man. I don't need your pity. I don't take pity from no pigs. That's all you are little piggies in your polyester pants condescending down to me but you don't know man I'm God I'm the devil will know all know me you can count on that. I'm going to see you all later. Man You can count on that. Yes I'm GonNa see you later. Ah Ah Terry Melcher how to get out of the House on Cielo drive. It had bad Juju break-up vibes he actor candice. Bergen had their toward passionate affair but now they've fallen out. Melchor needed a change of scenery. He needed someone to take up the lease. And if Terry and candidates have been Tinseltown's golden couple in their time ceelo drive it was fitting that the new tenants would be heirs to that throne Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate Roman Polanski in nineteen sixty nine was the hottest filmmaker L. Maker in the Western world after directing Rosemary's baby. His earlier films proved he had unsettling insight into lies live with barely contained trauma but Rosemary's baby was his most terrifying portrait yet. A beautiful bride glowing with child slowly hauntingly revealed to be the victim of a demonic conspiracy to unleash hell on earth. A true nightmare. It freaked America out wherever all that darkness came from more than paid. Romans bills offscreen. His Life Seem picture-perfect Sharon tate. His beautiful bride was gaining a foothold in the industry of her own as is an actor and she was pregnant with their first child when they got the keys. To the new place Terry and candies old place on Cielo drive. It felt like a coronation together. They would cross the threshold into their transcendent new life. They signed the lease on February twelfth. Nineteen sixty nine. It moved in the following Saturday the fifteenth but just six months later on August seventeenth nineteen sixty nine when Roman ascended the driveway to his Benedict Canyon. Home for the last time he was in shock he needed to gather some items before going into hiding disappearing was necessary. There were no arrests. No no leads no answers. He was both a suspect and a victim as such. The spotlight was white hot walking toward the front door. He was outside outside of himself. Autopilot his stomach. One big not his eyes setback deep in his sockets weighed down by heavy bags his backbone steeled for for what he could not believe he was about to witness the crime scene. There were detectives. Crime lab techs photographer. He had asked to accompany him. There was zero zero faith in the thirties. Rome would gather his own clues. Take into a psychic for evaluation in hopes of uncovering the killers savages Roman stopped on the front step. The sight of it was too much. He immediately took a knee there on the doorway. What he could only presume with his wife's blood? The letters supe- I g pig the knife. That killer used stabbed his wife his eight and a half months. Pregnant wave was taped around. Its handle to prevent any fingerprints from being discovered. Should the knife ever be found. It was a small knife a buck knife with a three quarter inch diameter blade played a tiny knife that made for a lot of blood raw unnoticed stains deep brown stains on the carpet upon entering his home. From where the what a pool. He followed smaller bloodstains on the floor to his living room and there was the sofa out of place with an American flag draped over its backside on the floor on the other side of it and other stain so brown so deep in the carpet it can only be from an unimaginable amount of blood in the newsroom. Stomach tightened the steel in his spine. Stiffen Solid Alad. He looked up to the rafters. There was the white nylon rope. The detectives told him about hanging down over the wooden ceiling. Beam slack at at the moment. Having done its job fucker up around the neck do shut that bitch. Up Moo Moo Moo Totta under rope around her neck due to go ahead and do it. Would the killers took one under the rope wrapped it around Sharon Tate's neck than to the other end of the rope wrapped around the neck of her best friend and ex lover. J. C. brings snack. Jay was still deeply in love with Sharon. Roman Nu- this by cared little. Jay was a pajama boy. His station barely higher than that of service. Industry worker. Roman was when the Hollywood's most in demand directors Jay sebring in his fancy shears. Were really no threat at all the rope at the end of his neck every time Jay struggled every time time you winced loaned try to crawl away. The rope threatened to choke out the woman. He loved the other end of it. Roman Polanski's wife crying mumbling completing J. States still on the floor. He tried Condo. He tried reasonable killers. Sitting share pleaded more the big big one the one the others recalling tax get kicking Sharon in the belly directly. Impacting your up on beaming. Sharon cried J. protested. His words words meant nothing romantic. Turn away closed is open them out of the window to the back. Mom Aren't crime scene pylons highlights marking the exact points the body fell two of them. You'd be folder and her lover in Romans Bud from back in Poland Vojtech Rakowski Roman Nu- old friend when given up without a fight Roman could imagine the horror the drama that all the killers taking a surmising their progress to the point the time do looking at their victims near dead literally at the end of their rope and then at each other's if the question their own steal their your own metal their own purpose just what in God's holy our the even doing the unholy property in there Sharon J give Vojtech through their fear eared fleeting moments of clarity. They wanted the same things in the name of Christ what was happening and then answered God himself. The big one tax look doubted Sharon and spoke with undeniable purpose. I'm the devil huge through the devils business. There was a brief calm and living room as they bled out Sharon on one end of the rope. J. On the other whimpering softly their inevitable killers tax in the small on which he checked the one. They called sadie pacing whispering to each other on the floor tied up with towels. Saddest severely beaten Vojtech Fried Karski and his girlfriend Abigail Gibbs folder and then vojtech freed himself from rose up sadie caught the mood and stabbed Vojtech in the thigh. They struggled seabees. Vojtech have three more times. He got to his feet with quickness went out CD grabbing her by the back of the hair flinging her around and around. CB Screamed Tech. Shut him up with bullet to the head somehow Sadie Frieder Self Vojtech who along with giving beat it up in the back lawn two killers ron of in no time straddling than each in the freshly manicured grass stabbing outing them relentlessly in a full on manic. LSD inspired anti-establishment take-no-prisoners leave no recognizable features rage Vojtech for Kaczynski was stabbed ABC fifty one times beaten over the head with the butt end of Texas twenty two Butlin Revolver and shot twice. Abigail soldier was stabbed. Twenty eight times forwarded the face one in the air five in the neck to in the stomach to in the back one in the one in the shoulder one in the other room to in the thigh one on the a hand to on the wrist and six others peppered elsewhere butter mangled twenty five year old body Roman snap two and reentered the living room it. It was almost unrecognizable the rearranged furniture that fucking American flag. The bloodstains jarring sucked him in. You could see get down on the ground next to Sharon try looking during the I stared tech shouted down at her. Do a crisis doing when sadie continued to stare Sharon whimpered some more fearing fearing for unborn baby thinking of her own mother whispering to her sadie tried. Piercing Sheri- closed is with their own demonic gays. The tax could take it no longer. He pounds to begin. Stabbing maniacally city took her cue and joined in almost immediately together. They stabbed Sharon Sixteen Times. Lives Sharon eight and a half months. Pregnant was dead along with your unborn son Roman broke out of the haze of Har- car. There were too many people around. The crime scene is house to get fully caught up in the trauma. What had happened just days earlier? He collected some personal items and resolved Paul to catch his wife and unborn child. Murderers with or without the help of authorities and build a few days later while on the road with the beach boys support of their album. Twenty twenty the one with the Charlie Manson Song. The Dennis had bought and reworked as his own. Then there was a murderer. Terry's place is the one Roman was now ready. Sharon was dead so J. B.. Come home the LAPD like ask him some questions. Thank you check me out. Part one of the beast voice story to coming your way in two days and if you're listening to this on or after December nineteenth two thousand thousand nineteen what are you waiting for. Go ahead and listener part to the store right now in this episode of disgrace and its musical score in theme song written by me. Take Brennan Writing Assistance by Taylor. Benton disgrace that is mixed and engineered by Sean Galen who also helps score this episode additional music and score elements limits Bhai Riot spreaker additional music services by bryce cancer are add. Music was composed by Kennedy. This episode was edited by Healy Disgraceful. Graceland is produced by myself for double Elvis Media in partnership with iheartradio sources for this episode are available on my website as are the sources for all episodes. That's where you can find all info on disgrace land if you like to win a free. Avi SPITAK designed season four poster head over to apple podcasts in the review disgrace. So if you're not on apple and still WANNA chance to win a poster you can jump on social media in review disgrace land with the HASHTAG subscribe to Disgrace Slam on announce the winners in the NEXTSTEP CEUTA disgrace. You know that's easy. You're getting a free poster as our U. S. FM. Seventy six guys to be up via the website and I'll get posters. Not thanks for the reviews. Everyone else talked me on instagram and twitter at Graceland pod and find us at facebook dot com slash disgrace land in a man guys. Finding the right pros for home. Projects can be tough in spark a lot of questions. I'm not handy. I have tons of questions so I need pros. Who can help help me do a good job? Make sure that I get the job done right that I get a fair price. And that's home advisor comes. They can help leaky. Faucets since. Two huge major remodels homeadvisor connects you to the right pro for the right job seconds and even helps you get a fair price. Read reviews check project. 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Terry Melcher Dennis Dennis Wilson Charlie Charlie Dennis Wilson Charles Manson Brian Wilson Brian Steve McQueen Mike love Dennis downshifted LSD Sharon Tate Carl Wilson Terry Melcher Charles Charles Manson Dennis Lee America California Roman Polanski Terry Manson
Charles Manson Pt. 1: Killer Charisma

Crimes of Passion

50:49 min | 1 year ago

Charles Manson Pt. 1: Killer Charisma

"Due to the graphic nature of this families crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder sexual assault drug use and violence that some people may find offensive. We we advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen most days Tex Watson didn't have a care in the world he had Charlie to tell him what to do and Charlie knew everything everything so texts never had a worry about whether he was making the right choice or of a wrong one techs also had access to a steady stream of marijuana and l._S._d.. Charlie encouraged it which meant that at the drugs or good but techs had curiosities about heavier things too so and it was offered by Charlie he readily swallowed a chunk of Bella Donna route but the trip didn't relax him or open his mind mind instead he felt unhinged filled with panic paranoia and anger all of his senses seem distorted. He couldn't be sure of what he was seeing or feeling. It was the middle of the day darkness enveloped him. It was us if a malevolent evil was trying to warm its way into his body techs. Let the evil in there was nothing he could do to resist it. He began to lose consciousness. He could only hope that when he woke up it would feel normal again but it was a dim. Hope Tech suspected that he had changed himself. Irrevocably the evil was part of him. Now Hi I'm Lena Hobbs and this is crimes of passion apar- cast past original the legal definition of a crime of passion is a violent crime that occurs in the throes of extreme emotion leaving no time to reflect on the consequences but in this show we explore passionate crimes how does a marriage progress from husband and wife to killer and victim or killer and Co Conspirator. If there's a thin line between love and hate what manipulates our relationships and a deadly results in this episode will explore how Charles Created the group known as the Manson family how they began as a strange but seemingly benign group of outcasts and how they transformed into a ruthless band of criminals next week we'll discuss the infamous murders the group carried out the police investigations and the trials that follow their crime spree. This episode is art of Park has summer of sixty nine event July twenty the second through August ninth. All your favorite park cash shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history. The summer of Nineteen sixty-nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing ending where diving deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different are cast originals. We'll be digging into the fallout of M._l._K.'s assassination a wide eight reaching l._S._d.. Colt and rumors of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more all in our new parkas presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. We are grateful eightfold for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing. Reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at Park has network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode US owed the best way to help us to leave a five star review where ever you're listening it really does help few names in history carry the as much notoriety as Charles Manson's when he died in two thousand seventeen after spending nearly fifty years in prison news of his passing made international headlines from what we know about Manson. That's that's exactly what he would've wanted. From the time he was a young man. Charles Manson creeped fame and attention initially he believed his celebrity would come from being the world's biggest rockstar Baker than his idols. The the Beatles instead he was notorious for orchestrating some of the most heinous murders in American history but it wasn't just his crimes that drew infamy it was his ability to attract a loyal cult of followers. I who were so devoted they were willing to kill for him. Charles Mills Manson born in November of nineteen thirty four was without a family for most of his life in many ways. The creation of his cult following was determined many years before he found his way to Haight Ashbury his mother fifteen year old Kathleen Maddix was never married to Charles is biological father any me subsequent relationships didn't last for long Charles was shuttled between his grandmother and his aunt as Kathleen tried to find her footing. When Charles was only five Kathleen was sent to prison for stealing a car and and he was into live with family and McMechan West Virginia his aunt and Uncle Glenna and Bill Thomas Remember Charles is three year? Stay as difficult time for their family. Charles was impervious to punishment his uncle. Go Bill said that he acted however he wanted and no threat of a whipping could make him behave before a continue with Charles's psychology. Please note that I am not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but they have done a lot of research for this show. The Thomas's memories of Charles reveal a pattern of antisocial behavior often used to diagnose conduct disorders in children. The diagnostic and statistical manual of of mental disorders notes that problem behaviors may start as young as the age of three these children often show defiance towards adults lay mothers for things that have gone wrong and provoke others Charles displayed did all of these tendencies during his time in McMechan. Perhaps most frightening was Charles's obsession with knives. His cousin Joanne recalled a terrifying instance when she was left in charge of seven year old Charles Girls he was pestering Joanne as she cleaned the house so she sent him outside moments later she looked up to see Charles standing on the other side of the screen door wielding a sickle he'd found in the yard slashing being at the screen. His expression was so deranged Joanne thought he might have killed her if our parents had an returned just then to stop him when Charles is mother Kathleen was paroled in nineteen forty to the Thomas's were glad to return seven-year-old Charles tour but his defiant behavior continued Charles skip school shoplifted and light about it he was never ashamed and never repented for his bad behavior the D._S._M.. Five noted that between the ages of Seven and eleven antisocial behaviors intensify in children with conduct disorders at this age the children are more prone to lying stealing langer and rule-breaking as they gain more independence from their caretakers. Kathleen hoped a firmer hand might straighten Charles out so in nineteen forty seven when Charles was twelve Kathleen sent him to the ball school. Oh for boys a boarding school for male delinquent and Terre Haute Indiana he ran away from Jabal the next year in nineteen forty eight within weeks he was caught burglarizing stores in Indianapolis the Annapolis and was sent to a juvenile facility in Omaha Nebraska. It started a pattern of incarceration escape and reincarceration throughout nineteen forty seven and nineteen fifty four Charles was placed Austin and escaped from a reform school in Indiana the National Training School for boys in Washington D._C.. And finally a maximum security prison and chillicothe the Ohio he was always recaptured as a result of escalating criminal behavior such a stealing cars and armed robbery Charles fits the textbook pattern of antisocial behaviors typical of childhood conduct disorders the D._S._M. Five states that adolescents are likely to intensify their rule breaking through truancy running away assault robbery vandalism and stealing cars medical professionals note that a high proportion of children and young people with conduct disorders grow up to be antisocial adults Charles was by no means reformed but he managed to get his worst impulses under control at chillicothe -I he was released in the spring of Nineteen fifty four at the age of nineteen. Surprisingly he returned to McMechan West Virginia to live with his aunt uncle and grandmother his mother Kathleen had remarried and Charles didn't like her new husband and his grandmother's request Charles regularly attended church he wasn't a believer but he enjoyed several Bible passages especially in the book of revelation and he committed many to memory but his time outside of institutions was short-lived in nineteen fifty five Charles Stole a car and drove to Los Angeles to see Kathleen he was promptly arrested by police officer who suspicions were raised by the out out of state license plate in April of Nineteen fifty six Charles was sentenced to serve three years at San Pedro's Terminal Island Penitentiary in Los Angeles Harbor in Prison Charles encountered all types of lawbreakers but he seemed most enamored with the pimps he was enthralled by their stories of seducing young vulnerable women and turning them into obedience sex workers they explain how to pick out women with low self esteem separate them from friends and family and finally alternate between showing the women affection and violence this combination of love and fear where powerful tools to exercise control over their victims Charles like the idea of exert control over people. This may be why he enrolled in a prison course based on Dale Carnegie's bestselling book had a win friends and influence people Charles had never shown shown any aptitude for education before but he excelled in a class that affirmed his instincts for manipulation the most important lesson he gleaned from the course was held a make someone do what you wanted. The trick was to make them think it was their own idea. The research of cognitive psychologists Elizabeth Loftus suggested that it is relatively easy to implant an idea and another person's mind simply asking leading questions can shape another person's response and even create false memories of events Charles was thrilled to learn how susceptible the human mind was to outside influence and how easily he could exploit that twenty-three-year-old Charles was released in September nineteen fifty eight with few job prospects he decided to become a pimp he seduced nineteen year old Leona Ray Musser with the aim of convincing her to intersects work. Art Leona eager to please win along with it until his probation officer caught on Charles was soon back in federal court facing charges but he had Leona by his side. We only had never met anyone like Charlie. When he spoke to her he acted as if she were the only thing that mattered and told her that she was the prettiest girl he'd ever seen? He trusted her and he needed her to look out up for him just like he did for her. How could she not love someone who meet her feel so special and desirable she would do anything for Charlie? Now was her chance to prove it. She thought about what she was going to say to the judge if she could strike the right tone and get the judge on her side she would keep Charlie out of prison and they could stay together and be happy. The courtroom was quiet and everyone was watching her the lawyers the parole officers and Charlie Leona lead Outta quavering cy and began to talk about how she and Charlie were in love and how they were going to get married and then she told the judge that she was pregnant with Charlie's baby. It was a lie but she didn't feel guilty. She was only helping Charlie as she wrapped up her speech Leona. Let here's wall from her is she began to Saab. Charlie said that if she made herself look helpless the judge would take Pity Charlie was right Leonis plaintiffs speech before the court work and the Judge Place Charles on probation rather than sending him back to prison but Charles continued forging checks and pimping out Leona in June of Nineteen Sixty Twenty six-year-old Charles was sentenced to another another ten years in prison during this stint he discovered scientology. He may have been drawn to the way the scientology leaders convince converts to surrender individuality and completely given to the ideology with the explosive arrival of the Beatles in nineteen sixty four Charles also became obsessed with music. He was fascinated by beetle mania more than anything King Charles wanted a legion of admirers to love him as much as the Beatles he had always love listening to the radio as a child. It had an ear for plunking out songs on his aunts piano. He convinced his mother to has sent him. A guitar took music lessons from fellow inmates and performed in prison variety shows other inmates gave lackluster praise calling him a decent singer capable of playing a few cords but Charles was convinced minced he was a genius prison staff encouraged his devotion to music as distracted him from causing trouble on March twenty first nineteen sixty seven thirty two year old Charles Manson was released early from prison but he felt aimless without the constant supervision he'd grown accustomed to after twenty years in and out of various institutions while he mold over his future. He asked his parole officer here for permission to leave Los Angeles he wandered north to Berkeley California in the nineteen sixties. College campuses were exploding in protests against the war racial inequality and social injustice U._C.. Berkeley was at the center of radical protests after nineteen sixty four when students staged free speech demonstration that resulted in nearly eight hundred arrests and attracted the scorn of California Governor Ronald Reagan again at the same time the Haight Ashbury neighborhood and San Francisco was the epicenter of the counterculture movement a place where hippies experimented with drugs free love and communal life both the revolutionaries of Berkeley and the Flower Children of San Francisco received national attention young people everywhere were drawn to the unconventional lifestyle they'd seen on the news or read about in magazines by nineteen sixty seven the bay area was packed with Gurus fractures and revolutionaries and there was no shortage of impressionable young people ready to fall under the influence of an inspiring leader and so when Charles Manson arrived having trained under pimps and scientologists alike is future followers where ripe for the picking. We'll see how Charles collected his first family Lee members after this now back to the story when thirty two year old Charles Manson arrived in San Francisco in nineteen sixty seven the summer of love was in full swing. Everyone who migrated to the city had come with one purpose to learn how to think in a new way Charles was happy to educate them twenty-three-year-old Mary. Brunner was like thousands of other young people who flocked to California for a chance at an exciting new life she worked in the U._C.. Berkeley Library and met Charles while he was hanging out around campus playing guitar. Mary had only recently moved to Berkeley from Wisconsin and she hadn't it yet made any friends upon their first meeting Charles teased her trying to get a rise out of her. Her temper flared until she realized he was purposely trying to goat her then she laughed and Dan dropped her guard Charles coaxed his way into her home and essentially became her freeloading houseguests. Their relationship wasn't immediately sexual but Charles would sometimes bring other women back to her apartment went to sleep with them. Eventually she became jealous of the other women in order to compete for Charles's affections. Mary began to sleep with him to Charles was happy to take Mary to bed though he didn't stop collecting. Electing other women like eighteen year old Lynette Foamy Lynette had a troubled history of drug abuse and self harm. She ran away from home after an argument with her father. Charles was naturally drawn to vulnerable people all he could manipulate women who were desperate to be loved when Charles Sullen net crying on the boardwalk. He stopped and told her she looked like she needed a friend. He easily persuaded her to come back with him to Berkeley Charles now had his second follower. He didn't stop there. Charles picked up another woman Pat Krenwinkel after enticing her away from the home she shared with her drug addicted sister. Then he added twenty year old Susan Atkins whose life had taken a rough turns and she lost her mother to cancer five years prior. The women were thrilled to be part of Charles's grew hat wrote a letter to where father stating that for for the very first time in my like I've found contentment and inner peace Mary Lynette Hat and Susan all projected vulnerabilities that made them susceptible to Charles's influence. Nearly all of them had troubled relationships with their families and Charles validated the anger they felt about their unhappy home lives telling them they were correct to rebel against their parents. Nearly all of them had self esteem issues and Charles told them that they were pretty and desirable. These were women searching for comfort and Charles gave it but their attraction to Charles wasn't just about their own weaknesses as it was also about his magnetism he knew how to turn on the charm and his followers love the way he showered them with compliments. Charles was also older than most of these women by a decade. He used his age as the advantage or training himself as an experienced sage. It was extra flattering to these women that someone they perceived to be so wise was willing to pay attention to them. Charles Philosophies were not particularly really original but he was so charismatic when spouting out a jumble of ideas drawn from the Bible Scientology and Beatles lyrics that people couldn't help listen he spoke with the confidence and authority ready that discouraged anyone from questioning him Charles also had the self-awareness tied some of his negative attributes for example he was vehemently racist but he did not reveal the extent of his racism to the women in his group as far as they could tell Charles's way of life was all about feeling good letting go of inhibitions and pershing bad feelings. Charles told the women in his thrall that no matter what may have happened happened to them before they were special beautiful and blameless innocence. They loved hearing this and they loved him still win. Charles lost his temper are he became violent when he wasn't pleased with the women he might punch them or pool their hair but like many abusers he always knew how to sweet talk them into forgiveness a classic perpetuation of the cycle love abuse this was only heightened by their isolation from other relationships and their dependence on him in the study from Translational Psychiatry Journal Antisocial personality disorder is found in forty two seventy ninety percent of prison populations in Cortex studies review psychologists. John Burke notes that many Colt leaders at the diagnostic criteria for antisocial personality disorder two of the most recognizable traits up the disorder are the desire to control others in a tendency towards a crash in a cult leader revealed these treats by demanding loyalty from followers and by doling out physical punishments to transgressors in the same article Burke described evidence of dependent personality disorder among followers. These individuals are more likely to exhibit depression anxiety and feelings of powerlessness that make them all the more likely to fall under the spell of an authority figure. These dynamics were certainly found within Charles Manson's burgeoning colts in late nineteen sixty seven bolstered by his flock of admirers Charles decided it was time to pursue his is larger ambition of becoming Rockstar. Mary Brunner gave up her apartment in the bay area and the group decided to move to Los Angeles Charles packed his followers into a V._W.. Minibus and set out to become famous in Los Angeles. The group stayed in a home known as the spiral staircase the owner of the house enjoyed being surrounded by interesting transients and he allowed many artists and eccentrics aboard they're here. The group continued to expand they met fourteen year old Diane Lake lived in a nearby commune with her parents. Diane leader wrote that becoming part of the Manson's was like a raindrop joining joining a puddle. I blended in easily my loneliness disappearing Charles used his existing followers to draw in more people were more willing to listen to his ideas. When they saw the he was already surrounded by an enraptured crowd the group swelled to around twenty members mostly women and a few men they increase their numbers and other ways to Mary? Brunner got pregnant and in April of nineteen sixty the eight gave birth to a son Valentine Michael Manson Susan Atkins also became pregnant she would give birth and the fall of that year during the same period the country. Country Roiled with discord be at Phnom War protests dominated the news president Lyndon Johnson announced that he would not seek reelection be assassination of Dr Martin Luther King Junior triggered riots and over one hundred cities but no matter what was happening around him Charles Manson remain myopically fixated on his own destiny his plans got an injection of energy when two of his followers met Beach Boys Drummer Summer Dennis Wilson in Hollywood Wilson invited the young women to his house for milk and cookies and they spent an innocuous afternoon together after their snap Wilson excused himself to go to a recording session and the women left but Charles was thrilled when he heard about the encounter he demanded the women's show him the way back to Wilson's house. When Wilson returned he found Charles and his flock partying in his house Wilson was not WanNa turn down a good time so he let them stay over the next few days Wilson let Charles philosophize to him and found some of his ideas profound mike the Women Charles collected Dennis Wilson struggled with feelings of emptiness and loneliness he had previously sought meaning and transcendental meditation but he was open to anyone who might have some answers and Charles Charles was an expert at convincing people he had wisdom to share for Charles is followers Wilson welcoming them into his home was just another example of their leaders? Magic Charles told them that he could make good things happen just by envisioning them he wanted a music career and a famous musician came into his life in reality he was just manipulating easy targets like Wilson into giving him the things he wanted but to Charles is disciples. It really seemed like he was conjuring. Good fortune out of nothing they saw an almost god-like power and it only made them clean Charles Moore that's summer Wilson introduced Charles goes to some of his industry contacts talent Scout Greg Jacobson and producer Terry Melcher Charles trying to get in there good graces by encouraging them to sleep with their pick of his followers. None of the women men objected as if they had much of choice one of Charles's rules probably borrowed from the pimps was at each woman had to let go of all her inhibitions and have sex with whomever Charles told her a two if she couldn't do that he wasn't interested in keeping her around. If any of the women ever wavered Charles used other pimp tactics he'd guilt them into obeying questioning whether they really he loved him while also instilling fear with the threat of a slap or beating Charles's manipulation tactics worked on both ends Wilson and his frequent visitors Greg Jacobson and Terry Melcher. We're enticed by the offer of unlimited rule free sex and for the next few weeks the family became Wilson semi-permanent Guests Jacobson even flirted with the idea of making documentary film about the group Pope while riding up a film proposal he referred to the group as the Family Charles like the label and the group adopted it Charles now had the attention of a wealthy benefactor and several music music and film industry contacts but as a summer of nineteen sixty eight stretched on Charles still didn't have what he wanted a recording contract Melcher seemed to have the most clout in this area so Charles kept trying to get closer to him he knew Melcher lived in a secluded house on Ceelo drive and he often tried to score an invitation. The melcher always resisted keeping him at arm's length Melcher found Charles Charles off putting he wasn't the kind of person who searched for spiritual advice or metaphysical answers but the Gregarious Dennis Wilson introduced Charles to plenty of other less self-assured people who found Charles Dell's captivating Wilson liked to invite all kinds of people to come hang out at his house even strangers he barely knew twenty one year old Charles Watson was one of these guests Watson was thrilled to be welcomed into the home of a famous musician like Dennis Wilson but he was even more impressed by Charles Manson and his Legion of Obedient Women. The family accepted the young man into their cohort and gave him the nickname techs wchs by the end of the Summer Wilson was tired of financially supporting the family. When the lease on his house ended he moved out and the family had to find new lodgings but family members sandy good had another suggestion for where they could stay? She had a friend who lived on a ranch and seamy valley. The property had once been used as a set and T._v.. Westerns but it was falling into disrepair. Charles convinced the ranch owner Charles Spawn to let his group moved there in exchange for helping the old man with cleaning taking care of horses and whatever upkeep the property required and at the sprawling ranch the family continued to grow the Fall Charles came up with new strict rules to keep them in line for example he forbade the women from carrying money he didn't allow them to read books and he banned watches walks and calendars but his followers were willing to put up with the rigid policies because the family gave them unconditional love and acceptance that they could never find in the harsh outside world and if they didn't follow Charles's rules they'd be kicked out of the family ripped away from that supports stem daily use of drugs like L._S._d.. Also helped keep them docile. David Smith was a physician and addiction expert who founded the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic in northern California in the nineteen sixties Smith met Charles Manson and his followers in nineteen sixty seven while they were in the bay area two years later Smith studied the family at Spahn ranch and even wrote a paper paper on the group in the Journal of Psychedelic drugs prior to the families murder spree in recent years reflecting on the Manson family. Smith has written that we now know that drug infused mind control is a very real phenomenon phenomenon amongst acceptable youths Charles needed to us every tool he had to keep the group's focus and loyalty by the end of nineteen sixty eight he began to see ominous signs all around him his his followers noticed the change in him it had always been a regular ritual for Charles to preach to them through lectures or songs but that winter is daily sermons became less about love and more about the violent downfall of civilization now many of his lectures involved coming race war and which black people would rise up and kill the white population according to Charles it was black people's turn to be in power after years of oppression with these visions of violence Charles instill fear and his followers encouraging them to withdraw further from society and closer to him. The family had already found isolation at spawn ranch thirty five miles from downtown Los Angeles but Charles wanted to retreat even further away from civilization. One of the family members mentioned a place her grandparents owned owned and Death Valley called the Barker Ranch Charles thought this sounded like the perfect place to hide out during the coming Apocalypse Diane Lee was afraid she had joined the family at the age a fourteen because she wanted to be treated as an adult but to her that meant becoming Charlie's lover not as warrior still according to Charlie let shed was inevitable and they had to prepare for it. Diane didn't know what to make his latest rantings about race wars and uprisings. They were terrifying to be sure but Diane was certain that Charlie could protect them from whatever lay ahead head what frightened her Moore was at Charlie was acting differently. Just a few months earlier he'd been affectionate and playful. He showed love to all the women but Diana had believed he loved her best now. She no longer felt like a favorite Charlie had withdrawn when she tried to bring out that warm side of Charlie he looked at her with contempt that more and more often erupted into violence points and beatings only one thing seemed to improve Charlie's mood the thought of fleeing to the Desert Diane hope the change of scenery would fix things after all if it was what Charlie wanted wanted it must be the right move. The whole family tracked out to Death Valley in October of nineteen sixty eight to scope out the property Charles got permission from the ranch owner to stay there but he soon realized that the group wasn't prepared for settlement they needed to stock. I'll food drugs knives and guns in order to make the ranch a suitable fortress Charles left a few members at the Barker ranch to keep watch while the rest of the family returned to spawn ranch and seamew valley over the next few months they started collecting whatever weapons they could get their hands on they stole Dune buggies and motorcycles from car lots and made alterations nations on the vehicles adding extra armor and welding on Scabbard to hold firearms throughout all these preparations music still dominated Charles thoughts. If he had any misgivings about his chaotic visions of the future future they were put to rest November of nineteen sixty eight. When the Beatles released their latest album featuring their song helter skelter Charles seemed to think the music was speaking directly to him all all of it confirmed his dark predictions of annihilation coming up we'll talk about Charles's interpretation of the white album and his increasingly erratic man's to his followers? I now back to the story after his release from prison. In the fall of nineteen sixty seven thirty two year old Charles Manson used his charismatic personality and is masterful ability to manipulate people to amass a loyal cold following dubbed the family but by the fall of nineteen sixty eight Charles seemed to be steadily losing whatever grip he had on reality as the group squatted at the Spun Ranch and Seamy Valley early Charles lectured his disciples about the apocalypse and the family made preparations for the coming race wars Charleston that the black population would rise up to kill or enslave the White Race Charles told his followers that he planned to take them into a desert where they would crawl into a whole and hide from the violence during that time he said black people would hold all the power but Charles a white supremacist. I didn't think black people would be capable of ruling the world so he predicted once they realized they did not have the skills to lead the family could emerge from hiding and be recognized as the rightful rulers of the planet. In it share delusions are rare but when shared delusional disorder does occur it usually happens among people who live close together often in isolation and with an intimate emotional connection Dr Ernest Charlotte Zeh was the first to identify the phenomenon he labeled fully ado which translates to the madness shared by two and fully famille or the madness shared by the family Dr La's egg said that the inducer creates delusions and imposes them on a passive individual who was not necessarily psychotic themselves but who is overly trusting and naive the the family accepted Charles's prophecy not only because they deferred to his word on everything but Charles also seemed to have proof he pointed to the Beatles release of the white album in November of nineteen sixty eight mm-hmm Charles said the lyrics song titles confirmed everything he predicted about the future blackbird was about black people rising against oppression hickeys referred to the corrupt people in power who deserve the extermination coming to them. Helter skelter was the term for the chaotic events that would ignite the race or and signal the end of the world beyond searching for greater truths and prophecies and the white album Charles thought that the songs gave him more immediate practical advice in the song I will Charles took the lyrics your song will fill the air seeing it loud so I can hear you to mean saying that he should not give up on his goal of becoming a musician Charles had kept up his relationship with music producer Terry Melcher as best he could melchior wasn't interested in indulging Charles's musical ambitions nations but he enjoyed visiting the women at Spun Ranch and he recognized that even if Charles talents as a musician were middling there was something compelling about him that might warrant closer look so in March of nineteen sixty nine Melchior agreed to come out to on ranch to hear Charles. Play Charles was fanatical in the days leading up to the visit he and the women he chose as backup singers rehearsed endlessly he had them perform strip show to accompany the music Charles usually taught his disciples not to care about close or personal appearances but before Melchior's arrival instructed his his followers to buy material and hand so him a fringed buckskin suit the family cleaned the ranch the best they could normally the family scrounged up meals from the dumpsters of grocery stores taking home any misshapen deepened produce or food past cell by date they could find in the trash but for Melcher Charles had the women whip up fresh baked goods and treats the group eagerly anticipated Melchior's arrival but on the agreed agreed upon date Melcher didn't show Charles was furious in addition to his antisocial behavior he often demonstrated traits of typical narcissism including including a fear of losing face. My sense counselor Suzanne degs white stated that narcissist is not able to tolerate any kind of public humiliation. Their egos can't handle the prospect a failure for the next few weeks Charles pulled away from the rest of the group and went on walks alone in the wilderness he had taught his followers to believe he was infallible. He hated for them to see him stumble. If they started to doubt his ability to become a great musician the might begin to doubt everything and then they might leave him. Charles couldn't bear the thought in addition shinned Meltzer's blow a month later. Police raided the spun ranch. They'd been tipped off that the group was in possession of stolen vehicles. Some of the family members were arrested. The charges were dropped within days because has police could improve who had committed the thefts. Even so Charles was rattled by the thought of the law interfering with his family a few days after the raid family member Tex Watson had a powerful negative reaction to some Hallucinogenic Bella Donna route during this episode he wandered around Van Nuys sometimes crawling on his hands and knees and emitting high pitched beeps until Oh police arrested him for public intoxication when he returned to spawn ranch after his release be other members of the family noted that he seemed different the twenty one year old had been a friendly mellow addition to the group after his bad trip he became snap ish and edgy some studies indicate that hallucinogens can cause long-term or even permanent personality changes however most people reported positive changes as such as decreased anxiety but techs felt like the drugs made him paranoid and destructive after the succession of dark events. The family was granted a new ray of hope Terry Melcher made another another promise to come and see Charles Perform on me team. Nineteen sixty-nine Melcher came to Spawn Ranch Charles let on the best show he could military true listened politely after it was over he gave Charles the name of a friend who recorded tribal music. He thought the friend Might Find Charles is music more interesting than he handed Charles Fifty dollars and left the audition was over in wasn't exactly a brush off but it wasn't a recording contract either still Charles would not give his followers any reason to doubt his success to save save face. He told them that the fifty dollars was a signing bonus rather than the act of charity it likely was but the rejection clearly stung and Charles's moods turn darker he began to contemplate played how we might take revenge on Melchior. It was also around this time that Charles sent his followers on excursions. He called creepy crawling dressed in black. The family snuck into random house's late at night while the occupants slept there they would misplace items and rearrange the furniture. It was a power trip thinking about how the homeowners would wake up and realize the intrusion had taken place <music> without them. Knowing Charles did not direct the group to commit acts of violence during these creepy crawling missions but he did ask them to carry knives at all times. These missions were all part of the group's training he wanted them to overcome their fears of getting caught and to learn to move around silently and without detection this would be important. He told them once helter skelter began they also started preparing to returned to Barker ranch and Death Valley but Charles was still worried about a food in weapon shortage. They needed to raise some fast cash. Tex Watson had a plan to do so he would pretend to be a drug dealer and arrange range to sell twenty five kilos of marijuana to a perspective buyer text didn't actually have the drugs but he had a buyer willing to give him the money upfront tax figured he could get the money and then disappear before the buyer fire realized he'd been cheated but the buyer who went by the nickname lots of papa easily trace text back to the spawn ranch and the family when lots of Papa called demanding demanding his drugs Charles told him that he didn't know where techs was lots of Papa replied that he was a member of the Black Panthers and if he didn't get his drugs or his money back he and his comrades would come come to the spawn ranch and murder the family motto. Papa wasn't actually a Black Panther but Charles believed the threat. He asked one of the male members of the Family Thomas T._J.. Wallman to accompany him do lots of Papas apartment. Charles grabbed a twenty two caliber revolver to take with them and gave T._J.. Specific instructions Charles would stuff the gun in the back of his pants and T._J.. Would enter the apartment behind him. When Charles gave the signal he expected T._J.? To grab the gun and shoot lots of Papa once they were in the apartment teaching locked eyes with Charlie. He knew that he he was supposed to grab the gun but he couldn't help hesitating. He thought lots of Papa would be alone instead. He had two guys with him T._J.. Like things to be simple and hear things were becoming complicated but Charlie wasn't phased by the extra men. He ignored them and nodded at T._J.. The signal for him to shoot T._J.'s hand twitched. He knew that when Charlie he gave an order he had to obey that was the deal he'd signed up for. When he joined the family he had surrendered his individual to the greater whole he truly believed that he was no longer his own person and that his body was under Charlie's control when Charlie wilt him to shoot T._J.? Expected is body to comply but to T._J.'s horror he didn't shoot. He froze when T._J.. Failed to shoot lots of Papa Charlie grabbed the gun himself and shot the drug dealer in the chest. Lots of Papa elapsed as T._J.. And Charles fled they returned to spawn ranch where Charles brought to every one that he just taken down a Black Panther. He explained that he had done it for their sakes to protect them. Meanwhile teaching was so terrified by his failure to obey Charles that he fled the ranch fearing for his life. It was a signal to all of them Charlie had shown them what it meant to be a member of the family if they wanted to remain part of the grew they had ought to be ready to kill in the coming weeks many of them what prove how ready they were to comply thanks again for tuning into our crimes of passion summer of sixty nine special we will be back Wednesday with part two of the Manson family story we'll discuss the the infamous murders that took place on August eighth and ninth nineteen sixty nine as well as the police investigations and trials that followed. If you enjoy this episode checkout Parkas continued retrospective into the summer of sixty-nine from July twenty second through August ninth the summer of sixty nine will feature twenty-three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer be we should check it out on our new are cast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time when true love meat true crime crimes of passion was created by Max Cutler as a production of cutler media.

Charles Charles Charles Manson Charles Papa Charlie Tex Watson Charles Mills Manson Charles Moore Charles Philosophies Charles Sullen Terry Melcher Charles Terry Melcher Los Angeles Charles Spawn Charles Fifty Charles Dell Charles philosophize Manson family Mary Manson Beatles
Zealot 39: The Manson Family with Lauren Bonner

Zealot

1:02:31 hr | 3 months ago

Zealot 39: The Manson Family with Lauren Bonner

"Stealing isolation and what better time to talk about colts. Dan when it feels kind of like a good idea to join one helping me do that is comedian. Lauren Bona Hello. Hello. I'm actually in my car in my driveway. I don't WanNa Brag yes. I have driveway. I am. I am because I love my room but it's like a giant to the kitchen and I've already like I know I'm always disrupting my house mates. I come always like I'M. I'm just reporting recording cost aluminum lure him for an hour like Yukon. Come out here so I was just GonNa give them the nod off my nonsense in. Just sit in my car which is kind of find it's like a nice little booth That's outstanding can you babe you hone? I'll just do it really quietly. That's the greatest. We can just finish now exit with no going to. Because we've got we have to talk about one of the busiest ladies in the whole world busiest. I would describe him. He really got some stuff done. He was busy. He was if anyone is a you know productivity goals for this quarantine you know in terms of getting stuff done in a short amount of time these production outstanding delegator as well. I might say and also a massive asshole who we talking about. We're talking about the one and only Charles Manson with. Did you have beat of a panic when you're researching these because so much information there is yes so much so much because when when we were talking about doing this so I was like I mean I feel like I know a fair bit about channels. Manson had listened to podcast side. And before like I'm a bit into this stuff. Everything was so remarkable to write down and then I was like all like he's not even eighteen yet and I've already coldest nights about he. No you have to create it yourself so much. It wasn't that he was account later. That spent some time in jail. It's more like he was a prisoner. That spent some time as a cult. Leader will say upfront. If I sound like sympathetic towards him at any point Charles. Manson bad guy. Yep like absolutely not a good shake on that yet. A grade yet. I don't support him. I don't think anything he did was was warranted but he is someone who is was brought up his entire life basically in institutions like from the age of thirteen. I think all the way until when he was released like he was in and out of various institutions swerve whether that was school or juvenile or anything which like she'd each shitty childhood crazy stuff. The first thing I have to do because I like looking up facts about places in the way he was born so he's born in Nineteen thirty four in Cincinnati. Ohio and I looked on the map and Cincinnati is right where the Ohio River meets the licking river is not licking river. I was wondering was Semi historical relevance or if that was just because it was called the licking river. 'cause I bat is a sign. I I did not look any further into that. And one of Cincinnati's neat. He's polka Polis cooking at one at one time. It was America's like major pork processing city. You could get a boat licking river to Polka Polis. I'm sure to some people that sounds appetizing. But for me or a knife thanks I would sign up a thousand licking rivers to get to Polka policies at will find you a salad city. Yeah and Kathleen Yep massive drinker and a little bit of a service station Robo. Charlie Manson's father is Beth father. Actually this is funny. I've got this factor down whose fathers Lego nine was. Conal Wolka Henderson. Scott Cena Que. What's so funny is he. Like he just worked at a meal but he had a local reputation. Apparently has a bit a con artist. Because he led sixteen year old Kathleen Holly's mother to believe like he led her to believe that he was actually like a colonel in the army but actually his last night was McConnell. Then I wanna I named Princess so people will think I actually am. One will exactly. It's the ultimate move. You'll kid colonel like Lord and then they'll be they can just give birth to a monster light Charles Manson. I suppose crazy when she was pregnant. Yes US pregnant. And then he was like all have to do some army stuff and he just he like he wasn't even in the army. You hate it you've given birth. You just planning which school year kids going to go to. And then father of you baby has to go into army stuff. I was telling never had a chance and the next two paragraphs of my notes is just dotted with stories. In bad things he did but basically yeah. His mom did remarry. What I thought was amazing whenever you re such into stuff like this Murderous old like even just like that time period the thirties to the sixties people were just getting married left right and center one day before she gave us to child she had already married someone else. Some other guy like some guy just married a pregnant with another guy's baby like that's amazing right. I don't think you had to try very hard. Doesn't sound I k you have me I drink you have you. I sorry if the language is to cool Tokyo the Doobie And then you get married to the first guy that looks twice. It really seems that way. And then like you have this modern day thing of like all you. Wednesay GonNA propose like what they didn't have any of that back then. It was just all you pregnant with someone else's baby on a minute. Let's just get married. Let's get married within like before. She even gave birth papers were signed. Done met dieted engaged. Married amazing go off Queen. I guess she didn't look at my relationships hoping they don't propose. So the thirties to the sixties for me would obtain a fucking nightmare. Yeah that would have been rough. You'll have been turning down reprisals. Ola Time that they didn't end up sticking together anyway but no maybe not maybe not Hashtag goes after all that he did do hashtag saving and Hashtag robbery a lot when he was in say Niger he loved. Who's bone for it Haley? They've he loved to save so he's in and out of JV. And could I just love any opportunity decide? Juvie yet. Sound started coal? What do we call it? He Juvenile Detention? Few things that we take the long road. Yeah but juvie sounds goals. Very like I'm watching the. Oc At the moment very Ryan would Charles. Madison was very Johnny Depp. In crybaby different ages definitely Charles Manson definitely not Orion Atwood figure. Oh I don't know actually I haven't seen crybabies. Then maybe Johnny Depp to we can squeeze at an early Taytay. Yeah Charlie Manson definitely not a Ryan Atwood so he learned a lot of things like I got a lot of my information from Modem Pedia and it's and you will never say the words sodomy more often on any other website. No that's not true is it spoke to gain apparently like hey was sexually abused but he also did some con. I did some boy wiping himself which he d full. Yes very bad. So that was what really stuck out from me looking at like. When he was growing up he was kind of sent to a series of schools And then I think it was like one of them was confirmed or big culture sexual abuse in the school as well so like by older students to younger students for like hazing probably definitely in the earliest goals tour. Petty crimes deal caused stole ten dollars. Rubberduck grocery store stole fifty dollars. Raped a boy at knifepoint like that was kind of a bit all of a sudden. It's very small time. And then that just goes warm and hits you in the face when yeah and apparently he invented this self defense mechanism for himself code the insane game so whenever hey felt threatened and he was any little guys well. Yeah Hey I'd be able to rest much in on his head I five foot two. He was also. I realized these audio medium so that is meaningless. Femicide that anyway. I'm these toll Haywood just so if he felt threatened he'd just scream and make phases of waves arms and make. We'd noises to convince who was picking on him that he was insane. And even if you say interviews with him later in life still doing that yeah he's also he's a little bit insight yeah he is definitely actually a bit inciting especially maybe at that point like does that video of him like on the stand when he was in court and it's been popularly tended to a mainly he's doing like dance dance revolution dancing to put it on the on the facebook page. Yeah but that sounds exactly like the insane game which is yeah what he developed to try to defend himself. I don't want to sound like I'm sympathetic to him. But he really had a bad upbringing really bad and well you know you can always say that people you know lots of people that have bad upbringing become cult lady as but then again. It's it's just not surprising that Chali got into a lot of bad shape. 'cause he yeah he never had a chance never had kind of like real normal family at all. He was released briefly and true to your theory about that. Marriage was a virus during that time he got married to Await Code Rizal eight nine hundred fifty release married nineteen fifty-five waitress named Rosalie. She sounds lovely and she got pregnant. Stride away boom. She thought look making making reasonable money as a waitress here. But I'm a big board. Might get myself a husband fresh Outta jail. What's this little five foot two tossed out a little bit of a catch Let's let's get married. Straightaways vice he's just got a lot of character ongoing. She gave birth to his son. Charles Manson junior and I got the most yes so I think then he went away again to jail pretty quickly and that's also another crime. That kind of stuck out a little bit was like he kind of got into pimping quite a lot and I dare say he had a gift for. Oh yeah the fact that he got out of jail met a woman and married her in one year. I think is proof that he Was a very charismatic. Will like manipulate people unit. He had gotten his character. He's so good at convincing people to do stuff. Amazing League good at it. And it says when when he was in his mid twenties when he had this big trial for forging check which I think then he got like a ten year suspended sentence for that though it seems excessive but also in hindsight not enough a lot of his crimes very petty but for some weird reason they would often be like federal crimes. That's why his sentences was so big. I think they moved around a lot. So he'd go across state lines in that twin in the US that guy from state to federal. So you get you get hammered out when he was on the on on trial for forging that check this young woman that he was dating she played on the stand. Behan like crying saying if he was free that she would marry him and that's why he was given a suspended sentence and then he got out and they do get married but then he just went back to. It's the marrying bars. Finally at age. Thirty to nine hundred sixty seven and that freaks me out because everything happened really quickly Hayes released yeah he did. He did want to stay in because he just spent so much time. That was he's harm. Yeah over half his life he'd spent in institutions of the age of thirty two and it shows although he same to learn so much in jail that fed him in light off. He was a big fan of how to win friends and influence people dial comic book. Imagine that if someone radio book and learn the skills to become Jelly Matson. It's really really pride. It is bad like I was looking at the Wikipedia for how to win friends and influence people. It's still a very influential book. It's still categorizes. Held pretty high regard and the wikipedia page was like successful people source it. Warren Buffett has the certificate in his office still to this day. And then all these all these people and then the very lost fest in on the List Charles. Manson also read it and says that it helped him. I'm unlike that same book. At Warren Buffett Charlie Manson different paths to interpretations of the texts. I Gas Manton probably just read the second half so moved. He's in San Francisco. Released from jail goes to San Francisco and this is ninety sixty seven. So we're talking. The smelly glorious blossoming of hippy movement. And he moved in with a girl called Mary. Brunner in San Francisco and with the influencing people thing convinced her to let eighteen of the women. Leave it to maze. It's so crazy to me. Okay so I feel like once. The call is rolling. Everything's happening then that's like. Oh okay there's like a bunch of women it's like seeing a Kayak and see how people would get it but Mary. Bono was a library assistant at Berkeley. A Good University and he he just moved into our apartment which is like kind of toeing. The line of it's moving so fast but that's that's fine. I guess and then he just stayed home all day pine to Ta and then. She came home one day and there was another woman. There is another day. There's like more women that until eventually there's just like eighteen women in this apartment. Imagine that this guy moves with your boyfriend. You explain it to your parents. He's really nice. We've got a few women living with us. How did what was what did she think? And how did she stay? Hi honey welcome home from work here. You're eighteen hot new housemates. Yeah surprise. I I love you but I just want eighteen other women. It wouldn't have been a big apartment. Look this is a bad thing to say but he must he must have given go deep main there has to be something. Charisma Charisma will get you. Maybe seeks extra girlfriends apartment but eighteen easing saying that ceremony. I know so many guys or if they like short or something goes number one to go out with a chore than the Armor Of Not six foot women are they want to pay attention to guys with over six foot Charles. Manson was five foot two and had eighteen girlfriends in the same house. Catered no excuse. Let's bring that up the next time. A Guy says that if Charlie Manson can get eighteen dates at once mate yeah. You're not trying to if Charlie was good at anything it was bang. Short pulling chicks have -solutely any kind of established himself as a guru in Haight Ashbury in that time which is he kinda ruined hippies for everybody because he was really just pretending to be one. Yeah Hayden's come from self-interested Grady place not yet classic. Piano anything about peace Bloody kind of talk like the the Hippie mold and like look at it absorbed it and said and used it to to gain influence in our because this shootout of these yet naive to what exactly was going on and like people could just become gour he would be like tolkien hanging out and so he was parque. This is easy. Figured out. Like he did with everybody how to push their buttons how to get them to go. These guy really speaks to me man. It also helped that. Hey alias. Day helped a lot of people influence a lot of other people. Yeah and I think that was a very big pot of the vibe. The massive family. They would take a lot of Ella. Stay in a lot of trips together. So many and that kind of kept them onto his thumb. I guess yeah as long as you probably knew what kind of women to pick on. You'd have to because no matter how influential you are. There would still be. You know you like to think that nor Harry. Five foot two nothing. That guard could SI- could come up to me and convince me to like run away to the desert. I like to think I don't think that would work on me but maybe it would but and it would depend on what time of life you're in. Yeah mostly he really really attracted middle-class goes some people had nowhere else to go but also some that we I guess rebelling against their parents and they upbringing and with saying he beat them as a something intensely fashionable to do maybe a and a borrowed a lot from to get people hooked him wanting more and to get them feeling. Good and acting like a mini cult leader. He borrowed heavily from Scientology. Which is hull Larry Lewis because it barred from a whole lot of things but after it was up in going so many other colts borrowed heavily from the Scientology Modal Interesting. Because it's a crazy model. It's a crazy moto. Any even said that he left after what he spent about one hundred fifty hours or something being audited with the but he left because he was like that Shit. That's too crazy for me has Manson left scientology because it was too out there. So jollies out in California pretending to be agree but what he really wanted to be with a rock star so short Harry man predictable. He was asked our on his Acoustic Guitar Parties. He totally was any wonderwall was out then he. It wasn't like he was channeling that energy just a peach of Charlie Manson and the words anyway. He's wonderful that's the fingers. That's the teacher he's attracting. These hot hippie goes and he's really using them as bait because he wanted to also with the Scientology Moto he wanted to. Mate is many famous maybe produces and record producers and people in the industry as he possibly could and as he can say in once upon a time in Hollywood. The girls in Charlie's entourage did a Lotta Hitchhiking. I'm one time. Dennis Wilson of the beach boys picked up to his cheeks so he wasn't picks up his his girls and then they go to his house. And then you know what was so funny. Basically the wind went to his house. And then they'll hanging out there and then eventually more women started moving into Dennis. Wilson's house until there was a dozen at least of these women living in in Wilson's house and they apparently cost him approximately one hundred thousand dollars Yes loads of medical bills for treatment of the gonorrhea and twenty one thousand dollars for the destruction. His uninsured car that they borrowed Then light sixties gonorrhea an uninsured. Cas soit fun. I just love the idea. That like Wilson in his house with old as goals and yet dr over. And he's like Oh. Please go. They've all gonorrhea what to do like he's just arteries head. He seems like a plate. Me Each one of those guys where you just go around there and Gar look. I'm really I'm short of cash and drugs and luxury cars and he likes your man take you. I'm so sorry about the accent and did it comes home. One day and Charlie Manson's walking out of his house and Denis is kind of like Whoa man you not GonNa hurt me. And Charlie Manson just drops to his knees and starts kissing his fate. I think that would make you feel a little bit more Sikua. I mean it's definitely a move. It's a it's what you'd call in acting a deliberate choice players any five favorite to it's not bodyguard if you're gonNA go in case someone's fate this is the bit. It blew my mind when I first read about tally. Manson a while ago. It's one that he lived in one of the beach boys houses for a while but also that those trying to get dentist to introduce him to produces in things so he could maybe recorded an album but he wrote a song that he's now on a beach boys album he did on my mind listening to it. It's not it's fine it because it's it's he's on credited on its credited to Wilson It's called Neverland not to love. If you WANNA check a double negative which I hate. Yeah well it was. Originally titled Manson's Song is called ceased to exist which is a little bit more let hardcore Conscio- my day job is music copyright. And I just think I don't know if it was payment for the smashed car in gonorrhea bills or if Charlie Manson just didn't already doing but you never sign away your publishing. That's the money shot. It seems unusual that Charlie would have done that. If feels like if you were in. La like in the sixties. He did brush out with a lot of industry people hanging out with beach. Boy and Wilson did introduce him to code executives including which we'll talk about later Terry Milcho Day Sun Really. Yes and you know what Terry Melcher his girlfriend at the time was candid Oregon Shoe Mush candice. Bergen Yep hogs miss congeniality fame and Murphy Brown. I told you we were different ages. I mean what man's indeed with all these celebrity connections kind of fuck things up didn't end up getting signed to any record labels. What he did was just make Dennis. Wilson's House Amiss. Do you know what do you know what Charlie Manson was to Dennis he? He was kicked an imaginary drum cymbal. In my house where are we in his dud claim brides to not fame? Yes so he did. He was hanging out with Terry. Melcher was record producer. They he did get produce historic listen to a lot of his songs recorded. Demos Demos which he can listen to on Youtube. They're around you can link to that on the FAC- pages. Well they're not all great. Actually the one song he has which I will say again I will say. I don't like the guy during support Charles Manson but the lawns. That's that's kind of a ride actually is cold looking game. Go check it out. It's Kinda catchy. That's a good title. Yeah it's actually a good song. I'm have a listen to it. It's very just like sixties pop. It's fun and I like look at your game because I would say that to at into supportive way if goes down on its every light. Look at you go. Hey was not all that support women? He's attitude to him was not good. We just wait for a guy who's a lifetime. Don't you think yet may surprise people to know that tells minutes in probably didn't like super respect women also guy we hit coming back to that but not a good guy but not. The worst. Songwriter wasn't totally fooling himself. Record exact same kind of intrigued by what is was. I think wasn't. He's also called in to consult on a movie about Jesus Christ. He was a figure around town. People like Charles Manson. He's this guy like he's like a juror he like. Everyone thinks he's God he's GonNa these chicks that are devoted to him. People people who he was you can kind of say his lifestyle could have been marketed if he became popstar if they wanted to make him a pope so they could have been like. He's Charles Manson. He's the God he's got all these women he's got a Harem like he's kind of living alone is interesting but it probably just tired over the line of into two. We today a commercial pup success. I mean some of the few people in this story that can hold their heads high because everyone was like. Hey Yeah he sees Charlie Guy. He sees thank God. I just think having a record deal like old Chali. He kind of held grudges as well. So the aforementioned Terry Melcher who was Doris Day's hey rented a house that was lighter rented by Roman Polanski and Sharon tight film producer in his actress wife Manson would. He went back and visited that half later when he thought Terry Melcher was leaving that because basically hey would follow up with. People held grudges for if they had refused him in his head. The opportunity to become a massive rock star. Gary was like yeah. Look Music's fine but thanks. Thanks but he had been to the Charlie. Manson was such a fan of the dropping. Hey was he's Harley was knock on your door and be like what's up didn't matter if he knew you will not Not Always we fate. Just you WANNA hand Charlie. Manson slippers at the door. Absolutely and that is a hippie thing and I live in the inner western Sydney which is not. Yeah a little cool little bit heavy. I do save without shoes on and you know what? I don't think it's cool. I think it's Yorkie. It's not even on the on the thin line between Kumon Yucky. Yeah it's full pelt. Yucky Walking Down King Street Newtown. No shoes on holding an acoustic guitar. What part of that seems good unsurprisingly? Dennis Wilson's manager Chuck's them all out of Dennis. Wilson's house because I don't think Dennis Wilson's usually to tasting to really mind and they moved into this one of my favorite. Data's was they moved into. I think it's spun or spawns movie ranch into Panga Kenyan town. It's a fake movie ranch and old western town which is mostly just fake building fronts gallic what an job to to wouldn't you Dr? I mean if that if sponge maybe ranch was in the inner West you could sell even just the facades for about half a Mil Amazing so they just move into this like old western town in the role shoeless and Haiyan. Lsd having sex. All the time. 'cause Mary Mary. The original woman from Berkeley like she got pregnant lingo. What babies that time as well like the kids on the ranch it was just Head and suckling babies. The Arnold lived there for Free Georgetown just in exchange for Maintenance Annabi to sex in sex little bit of a sex with an old nearly blind guy to pay. Charlie Charlie would tell the gulls. It wasn't united wine excited about it. Yeah they would divide it and they were happy to do it for the family. I mean you pimp skills don't have to go to waste just cousy move into a dilapidated movie reg marches. They love to be the ranch. They moved around from there to a couple of other ranches in death. Valley Need Felli. Yeah in an enlightened to a yellow house in Canoga Park in the San Fernando Valley. 'cause I guess Charlie just always wanted to be valley go one of the ranches in death valley that they hired and he paid for by giving them a beach. Boys Gold record because Dennis Wilson dislike given him a bunch Dennis each each time. So don't be look worry. Worry about the beach boy. Sometimes I'm worried about the paging VACA-. I'm worried about the baseball soy the sheet. They believed this kind of two main things and the first one is one that I think people know about which is the bagels which will talk about I But the second one. It's about to be call but let's start with the BAGELS. I know we all listen to albums and guard. Oh that album really speaks to me. But he took that beyond. Yeah he was like no seriously guys stays album and really speaks to me. You have to listen to the meadows. Yeah it was the white album which he loved which I literally just made the connection about the kind of rice war line of thinking that he was on and the album being called. The white album yet only occurred to me this afternoon yet just right now to that academy which is pretty. You and I are not racist out of that to me. It was an. We don't raise. Who was just the album? I don't see Kala that way I don't see I say four boys from Liverpool but I don't see color. I just see album. So according to motivator they're out at the ranch the dropping illest a I think. Rain acting the crucifixion sometimes salaries on but smelled terrible yet. Very Daddy. He also tallied didn't take as many drugs as the others did. So he could you know. Plant some ideas and things one of those was these in a raid from to pay via about the kind of stuff that Charlie writing to the white album. Racial tension between blacks and whites was growing and that blacks would soon rise up in rebellion in America's cities he maintained at the white album was directed at the family itself so he reckoned the Beatles had written it four days got an elect group. That was being instructed to preserve the worthy from the impending disaster and the family would create an album like a response album to it and they songs would also trigge the predicted chaos. And what do they call their predicted? Chaos LAUREN HELP US SKELTER. 'cause they didn't realize that the name of a carnival ride in the UK. What it is is a race will and that sort of leads to the second bit of their beliefs that I find just gob smacking so with this race will. It's apparently it would stop with black. Paypal would met a white people and write the word peaks in the wall in your blood all very upbeat and exactly a Beta Wisconsin message you know or da but if you listen Kathy they definitely any mention that happening. Because that's the thing. Yeah the well. Some of the lyrics to helter-skelter it goes when I get to the bottom. I go back to the top of the slide where I stop and I turn and I go for a ride till I get to the bottom lauren and I see you again. Yeah old ED. They get to the bottom of the bit of blood that picking up they pick it back up again and they bring their hand back down again and that's the first stroke of the. P Two right peaks in blood. It's obvious it's all very clear if you it's all there. It's dance April flat. There was another sung. The Code piggies which was of course spoke directly to teach sally if not they thought the bottom and top and stuff that there was a sacred city. Underneath Death Valley. So he's what was going to happen is underground. It's so it's odd is what it is yes it would be these speed rightful and the winners of the race for so it would be started by like people killing some white people. The RENA winners of the rice will would be black people but according to Charlie Manson and this is remember remembering that Charlie Manson. He's an asshole like attach stupid to rule the world so the Manson family would hide in an underground city while the war was going on and then when the black people had won the war they would come up to the surface again and rule the world at LSD is a powerful drug is a bottomless pit thing. And the underground city was partly based on native American law and partly based on a pit or abyss in every countless favourite part of the Bible. The book of revelation. But it's also just that's just drugs so there's some kind of debate as well about whether or not Chali actually believed all of this or if that was the actual motivation for the crimes or anything or if that was just kind of additional propaganda to get people riled up to get people to do his bidding. Which is I I not. How did he come up with stuff? He was a literate like he couldn't really radio right. I think that's a thing he was a storyteller and he needed to give and when we do get to the bad beat which really up to the the nature of the crimes that he influence paper to commit so violent that it really feels like. It's the kind of thing that you can only get paid to do if they believe very strongly that they're doing something for a mission. Yeah so we are needed these immediate to drive the mission. Yeah exactly. That's the thing it's a mythology that he created till yet people's influence and because that's kind of as well the whole through line all of Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people the biggest lesson from not that people say is if you want someone to do something make them think that it is the idea. Yes so I think a big part of his kind of manipulation tactic was to create this mythology. Inci will what's going to happen. We need to this race riot. What should we do and then they would say well. Maybe we need to kill people. And you're like Oh okay. I guess let's finish up the beliefs and get onto that. But I will say that they actually did. They went out into the desert in June buggies looking for halls that led down to the sacred city. That's the thing I did well and I'll do brief court from soliciting van Hausen. He's one of the Look if it was a beauty pageant shade be Manson Quyen Leslie. Van Houten was gorgeous but also a horrible peasant and about these holes. She said but maybe it was going to be rigged up from someone who'd gone down before she's affected That it would have like water on the top and then like the water would like move away. Go Away Somehow by some kind of mechanism and if we played around the whole enough that went down there we'd find it then we could just walk down and we'd have to float down a revolt and it was just. It was insane. It's so detailed. It sounds like the Lord of the rings or something a sad taste in your mouth but bad that would also sleep at night and go and break into peoples houses practice they practice survival skills and there would go out and then just break into houses in Hollywood instruct them to go to reach families houses and just going rearrange the furniture rolling you crawling Creepie caroling. I hate rich people to you know I hate the system. I don't mind that that's kind of new to smash this name stuff. They are piggies at the end of the day. They I don't think they should be killed but I think it is kind of creepy crawling. So where they would just creeping in on undetected move furniture around faulk with them a bit like. That's kind of fun it's yet. The escalation is not cute and I should've stopped there yet if they'd stopped at dad then like that's a good prying creep into some rich guy's house and like movies catch ten centimeters everyday until he thinks he's being haunted us on. But it's kind of like Jim from the office. We the real message definitely at least kind of like Pam and Jesus is dot. Okay so we're GONNA get to the murders. What will cover a couple of mini crimes? I I've got these listed in. My notes is kind of mini crime. One and many crime to that living with Dennis Wilson and Charlie would just send Dennis to do he's beating and he sent him an errand to go and get him some money and a head to head to write these down because Dennis had shaded a black drug dealer Code Lots Papa Crow and that's my favorite name Ole time. Very good cross threatened everyone at the ranch so immense and went round tweets housing shooting. He didn't I bet it was just Manson deeds going through some dirty work himself the mini crime to and this is the Gary Hinman stuff. Yeah Hey was he was just a guy who they thought had money basically. Yeah he'd had some inheritance money. He wanted him to be recruited to the family. So you could sign over the day his property and his assets to the family. That was Bobby Boo. Salei wasn't it. The yes he went over there to try and get the money but it did end in Mudra. Yeah but they kept him hostage for two days. Yeah apparently meant indeed. Stop by 'cause he didn't like to participate it just like a stop by yes slash cheesy. We the Sword Chris ooh Drama Queen but they broke up political piggy on the wall with the print in blood. They've put a little pawprint yet to make. It seem like it was the black panthers kind of not seems like they're trying to incite the race riot. It doesn't mean just because your plan arise right doesn't mean a rice race riots. GonNa Stop. You have to give it another edge. Yeah getting impatient yet bobby. Boisselier who killed Hinman but he was arrested when he was found driving. Humans car idiot. I think he doesn't even like a sleep in his call. Like it was really pathetic. I feel in nineteen. Sixty-nine okay which is when the guy in motor happened there was no. Dna was facebook. That was nurse cell phone hanging or anything like you could. Just kill someone and runaway. It'd be so easy you could just do it. I mean between getting married and then kills on get married in the same week no one would know like and daring. It's amazing and but then initially went to sleep in the motor victims. Cau- come on get it to get a heaping. Listen very bright said. I'm bobby. Ucla was in jail. I think Charlie was scanned. Bobby would flip and kind of Tell Opsahl about the family and and give it all away so he wanted bobby out of jail and so hey said look guys it's time let's do helter-skelter let's do a big one. Let's do it. Because Charlie had a grudge against Terry Melcher and not getting a record deal so against chuck. Manson became cuck. Manson Manson had loved dropping loved grudge. So hey dropped round to Terry Milk House but Terry didn't live there anymore. Now was Roman Polanski the film director and he's Gorgeous wife Sharon Tate. Who is heavily pregnant? Do you think Charlie knew that. Melcher didn't live there anymore because there's yet smelter says that he thinks but rather malchow kind that house. Kinda just represented how the disrespect the Peterson. Yes but also because he'd done the drowned and realized that mountain didn't live there and found out who did leave their i. Reckon hey fought the initial mood. Is that supposed to get held a scale to going needed as much publicity as possible so that it would blow up into a rice. So I reckon when he found out That's that movie director and his girlfriend. Yes there were rich and famous enough. They would kind of what he wanted. Gone so Sharon. Tate's there on the night of August Eighth Nineteen sixty-nine and remnants out of town but she's there we've had friend an ex lava that we JC bring. He was also a hairstylist. Apparently yes a living hair stylists and then another Polish guy friend of Romans and aspiring screenwriter. Wojciech mccaskey as well as I applaud your pronunciation play. Thank you thank you. I am going to it with confidence. And he was also with Abigail full. Joe which is folger's coffee coffee heiress imagine Bangladesh to be an air. Actually I wouldn't sign are yet coffee. I don't know if you've been on the Internet lately but everybody loves coffee. I do love my coffee in fact I don't even talked me into. I've had my morning coffee narrow. They're hanging out with heavily pregnant Sharon Tate. And she's like eight and a half months pregnant. She's like SORTA ready to Paul. I don't know when she retired. She so cool. That's how cool she is then is co could. He's on paper tired of. Yeah well that's just me but I would be like Jay. Rub My state. Why isn't Roman? He'll ogling I'm pregnant and you're not in town upbeat and rubbed my fate. Saint and I'll just go through these names. Refer to them briefly lighter in these horrific fucking terrible story the people that were there from the family with Tex Watson who was he's like to I say and Linda Custodian Patricia Krenwinkel which is also good name when Susan Atkins was Susan Atkins. It was that squeaky people might know her us. Squeaky fromm no she. Wasn't there a bit Susan. I think her nickname with Sadie and squeaky firm was the girl the East to have sex with George spawned the most on the ranch. Yeah anyway cements and told them to go and visit the House and totally destroy. Everyone in it is gruesomely as you can. And he told the women to leave a sign. Something witchy yeah selling witchy which is a fun way to describe something they break into the house after just killing a guy that was driving down the straight his name was Steven Parent. They broke in and win for calcium. Lost they were takes. What what can said. I'm the devil and I'm here to do the devil's business. He could mail it. Sound more like he was dead. isn't the account of this. Is that from Texas. What he said that he said that sounds serve written like he's totally making it sound cooler than it was jerking. Irl He was like I'M GONNA fuck you up. And then he didn't do crimes. Yeah and then. He had wakes to think about it and he was like. I'm the devil. I'm here to Devil's work like that's a good point. Definitely he's making this up so you're gonNA take with a grain of salt. I reckon that's right. Yeah I probably said I'm heater right. I'm just I'm a pig dog right to fuck forty down as well in this matter sane or another medicine but they wanted to write helter skelter in blood on the wool and they wrote. He'll toss he'll talk because they couldn't even mel spilt it. I reckon if you GONNA pay in a Colt. Yeah the first thing you learn is how to spill your cult leader motto. Yeah the K. Tenants you got to write them. You've got to be able to So this next bit. I'm going to go through it really quickly because it's horrible but to partly give an idea of what is talking about before about how these could only be commuted by someone by Papal. Who had a driving force in that mythology of the cult's beliefs and pastas? If you don't like violence Jay sebring was shot when he complained that they were handling. Sharon tate to roughly folder was stabbed twenty times for cow. Ski Tried to escape but was stabbed fifty one times and Sharon. Tate was stabbed sixteen times and of course lost her baby and they wrote pig on the front door and blood and it still shocking and unbelievable. A lot of the police at the time said it was the mice brutal thing that they'd say it was still the sixties like. There's been a lot of horrible stuff in history but it was one of the most brutal scenes of the time. Yeah and then the following night is supposed to start a whole apocalypse the same four people plus Leslie Van Houten and a guy called Steve Grogan and meant and rode around looking for the next victims and they ended up at a house in las fillets. Nia Way to a party once. It was so random if signed by Chief Marketing Executive Code Leno LABIANCA and his wife Rosemary. And they pretty much did it again. Manson tied them up but then left because he on top of everything else. He's a coward. Leno was stabbed with a cobbing folk and a steak knife and they caught the word wall into his abdomen. Which is just it's horrific and Rosemary was stabbed by Krenwinkel and Van. Houten forty one times and Krenwinkel. He's the one that misspelt. Helter skelter DICKHEAD. So these are just normal. Kids basically low. The people join the family like when they were eighteen nineteen or younger kind of radicalized to be able to commit a crime. That violent is is really crazy if they were on drugs so under the influence of a Lotta stuff. I've read that. The girls were had just taken spayed and tax taken some day and then there was sent out basically even this many decades later. It's still makes you go. How did he get them to do that? I'll say something that very old. Papal say it beggars belief. Lauren here really does. I didn't know as well that after that Moda on that night Manson and told them to go to a second location do moment is and I never take amid a party to a second location. That's true but they was in an apartment building and it was demoted. Someone they knew they chickened out but not before Susan. Atkins took a sheet on this days while she says I mean it's better than mentoring the papal inside but this is a remarkable story let stolen Rosemary Labianca. His Wallet and left in a service station bathroom knew what they conceded. A black neighborhood hoping that like people would find and use the credit cards and get the blame. I think Shari's like the level of brainwashing. That must've occurred because there are like very sick. Individuals who commit crimes like that that violent stabbing very innocent usually personal but these were cons of passionate committed like that stabbing footage she times but that they would just normal people kind of radicalized probably vulnerable payment. Maybe criticized something. But it's like he's influenced Charles Manson's influence was that powerful to to be able to create monsters. Like that is that's the whole thing. Took him ages to get arrested. Even the two crimes to be linked they got arrested for stealing 'cause selling stuff disc arrested and released on unrelated stuff and then eventually they kind of got found out because one of the girls was was Leslie yes she was in jail and she was just like bragging about it. Yeah I killed. Sharon tate was pretty sick. You know we all live in a ranch together. We Love Charlie Manson. He's this Guy Yell. We voted them. It's Great Brag about you skew with highlighting and winged eyeliner not about mid EZE Don. Yeah which again. Just shows like the sixties so easy Outta and get away with that rile completely and the court cases for everyone where an absolute shambles. Manson was too controlling the girls and trying to get them to say that it was all their own idea. Yeah this is Wayne. And the saw much footage of them turning up to court and it was. I hate to say that I think Charlie Manson style for a lot of it was quite guage. But that's just the sixties for you. Yeah he was like Ryan is like fringed leather outfits and these skin shirts. Look if you're going to turn up to midday traumas account laid on yet not bring it a look but this is when he and the goes all shaved heads and COBB X.'s. Into their foreign heads and a Charlie Manson got pissed off at the judge and let 'em and the girls walked in hand in hand singing songs and speaking Latin was bloody foss IOS a spectacle and as well I think in the face of all of it Chali. He definitely wanted to preserve the family like that life. He was like loving it but he wouldn't have been afraid to go to jail. Would've known that he was. He wasn't afraid of Greenwich Jail. That was US harm. It was where he'd spent half his life because remind us didn't all happen all that slowly. He went out out of jail in sixty seven. Sixty six sixty nine that he is on trial. So everything's done if he's been out of jail for like a minute. He did all of this in two or three years when he'd spent over. Hoffitz life in jail anyway so he was like. Wow It really fuck shit up. And like he's not worried about Geralina. He's not worried about getting caught. He just wants to create the mythology of who he was and create a spectacle a fos in the media and Cape controlling totally and so I recommend that twenty. You know he wasn't well known before he was agree to a small group of people and he wasn't afraid of going to jail so all the behavior in court and all the spectacle seems fairly clearly. The approach of an attention say going. This is the last Chad. He's what I'm doing it. Oh four this is my last chance to get big attention. So I'm going to act like addicted. Yeah I think well look it worked. We talk about him now. Dad Guy Dart like him die so bad guy but squeaky fromm who we mentioned was a go. He slept with all George at the ranch. Years Later nineteen seventy-five shave was arrested because she attempted to assassinate President Gerald Ford. What assassination attempt by x? Family member squeaky firm. Which is the legacy lived on and end? It is crazy thing because there were so many people involved in the Manson family. That I'm not sure but I presume not. All of them were jailed for the rest of their lives. If people went directly linked to the crimes stays crimes seven people will just like in the Metro area. Then they just like go back to their life be like a specific just went funding other yoga. And then you've just to get a job and people like what are you doing? And you're like oh it's kind of Oakwood. I was at these Ryan Shum. I swear I didn't know what was happening. I was so yeah. He was a pimp when I met him. This guy in the like was he hot. New like New York to speak of get it Could HE SPINS. Yanna what I feel like. Yeah Manson's power has to be the biggest. You had to be that of all time. I'm still gobsmacked. Yeah but I'm glad I'm glad he died but which any race will sort of recently two thousand seventeen eighty three colon cancer. Yeah old as so. He was finally as much of a pain in the US to himself as he was to everyone else apart from maybe a few random checks that's a hell of a story of brand of some random facts about colds any any little facts with me. St- Oh I did look up how much it costs to buy the vinyl of the one album. He released which was released while he was in court. The album Cold Lie. They only sold about three hundred of three thousand copies printed at a time. But now it's for vinyl about three hundred fifty bucks online it's not unattainable you can just download nothing but yet to vinyl or the violent sound richer. It's you know it's it's about the object itself I'm writing for my seven hundred fifty dollars supplement to come in. Sorry who knows what's going. I'd advise you to start a cult but it does take too long. I mean cross possibly longer than the Australian government supplement. So we'll see. Some family members tried to silence one of the prosecution witnesses by giving her a Hamburg heavily laced with day. They'll probably like thank you. Thanks a fun fact. He knew how to play guitar in prison. The person who actually told him how to play guitar was a big Gangsta. Famous Gangster Alvin Creepy Compass public enemy number. One that's such a good name creepy copies. I go again another prison thing. This is from it. Says Manson's rhetoric and hippie speeches when really accepted prison though he eventually found temporary acceptance from the Aryan Brotherhood? He's role was submissive to a sexually aggressive member of the group at San Quentin. So I think that means that may be Charles. Manson was stopped by a Nazi had feels like justice to me. It doesn't a little bit. He was not the same influential person in an old male prison as the known as is vastly fame alcott which kind of is also an interesting thing to think about his methodologies of manipulation definitely prey on win any probably believed that women were there to serve as well that was you can hear him say eating too. That's what you know. Women accepted that say role. Just look we probably mentioned it before. But he was a bit of an asshole. Yeah bad guy but did a lot of stuff started are how he did it and I don't think I could do what he did. That's really pleasing to hear morally. I couldn't do it physically or couldn't do it. And who has the time if you go to a spat two years? This isn't the thing to dedicate yourself to. I think the only thing left to say is we are family. I got all my sisters with may join a cult. Aren't probably dark during a call. I don't think that ended up very good. If you have to leave call it would be so quick to tell everyone what you've been. Yeah don't join a coat. 'cause he'd be awkward it would be some. Oakwood thank you. You've been listening to zealot produced by May only from an underground city. My Co host for this episode was Lauren Bonner who has an instagram account at Lauren. Y Bonner podcast cold. Will you hot in high school on Itunes on spotify and recording studio in her driveway further reading and music not good enough to be a beach? Boys Bayside can be found on the Zealot facebook page and music is by the everglades is comforting as a tool lita pump. Pack of hand sanitizer cults purpose.

Charlie Manson Charlie Manson Charlie Charlie Dennis Wilson Terry Melcher Manson Charles Sharon Tate US facebook Manson family Charlie Guy America Cincinnati Mary Mary colts Chali Susan Atkins Berkeley
004: Charles Manson and The Family Tour

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004: Charles Manson and The Family Tour

"Down, this road is a small city once thriving full of life, but now desolate and abandoned, well abandoned eight for the horrors rumored to reside within. Which I presume while you're here. Now. There's nothing wrong with a little morbid curiosity. But please remember to stay close to your guys. Be wouldn't want anyone to get left behind. Hello and welcome to nope Ville the city where all your horrors and nightmares reside hall of your horrors, my horrors. I'm your tour guide Jen. Also your tour guide Christine. I guess. You can. You can be here too I mean I do get the start today. To just sit back and listen to you. Talk for a little while anyway. Listen to you, yeah, so this is our tour on Charles Manson. Our first steps into cult territory Yup will be mobile, getting a little bit toes, wet skin our toes. What and the colts? because. That doesn't sound weird. Today. On to- when the Colt! Was a grape. Drink is the kool-aid. The kool-aid in the ocean, yes, Charles Manson or is. He liked to be called Charlie. Of course. Yeah, I think I refer to him as Manson just Manson most of this I can't call him Charlie. because. It sounds like we're fun. We're friends and yeah. I can't do I'm like no, you're just Manson. Yeah. We're definitely not friends. Yeah, and even. Charles just sounds a little too formal to former for who he was. So our dear Charles Manson was born on November. Twelfth, Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old mother, and he was pretty much destined to become the leader of a cult of young people that felt they'd been abandoned, 'cause his mom spends quite a bit of time herself behind bars. So for a couple of weeks after he was born, he was just called no name Maddix well, Yep, before he was named who'll Charles. Mills Matic Mills, Maddox, a paternity suit filed by his mother Kathleen medics against a Colonel Walker Henderson Scott senior muffle. Now links his biological father who happens to be a conman? Scott as it turns out is not actually an army colonel at all that. His given name all along like his name is currently. I don't know what's worse that or what baby boy. There's just no name. Oh No name, just name no-name. Okay, if I don't know what's worse. So when Kathleen informed him that she was pregnant, he told her he'd been called away on army business to escape the responsibility. Okay? When Kathleen realized he was never coming back several months later after he was still just gone, she ended up marrying William Eugene. Manson about three months before little, Charlie was born. Okay, This person seems to have actually been at least a law-abiding fellow on paper. Paper there was nothing reported about anything. He did there then they got divorced two years later. Yeah, because he got all his sleazy genetics from his biological mother and Father Right? Yeah I know he had nothing to do with it except giving Manson his last name. Yeah, so his mother spent plenty of time locked up as I mentioned before for various reasons like assault, robbery and grand larceny. Yep there's a bit of an alcoholic as well. It sounds like she spent quite a bit of time at alcoholics. Anonymous a non no, no, no, no. Enemy. So thanks to her stints in prison. Charlie spent most of his life in and out of different institutions, or with his aunt and uncle by the age of nine Manson set his school on fire. And before the age of thirteen, he was getting in trouble for truancy and petty theft put like. Isn't that something? We all wish we could do. And he had gut. It actually do it. Just took it upon himself was like you know what everybody says they want to burn. Was Doing Aquino what slow! Yeah burn down the ORLEANS. KITCHEM at the age of thirteen. Charlie was placed in the guilt Catholic school for boys. In Terre, Haute, INDIANA the school would punish students breaking even the smallest of rules. And those punishments included beatings with either a wooden pallet or leather strap well then. Twice, Manson attempted to run away from this place the first time being returned by his own mother after Christmas, but the second time he successfully made it to Indianapolis where he committed his first known crime robbery of a grocery store, which he was originally doing just to get food, but then he discovered I think a cigar box full of money and took that to get himself a place to stay and some. Some more food right after this. He tried to go straight for awhile and got a job delivering messages for Western Union but it wasn't long before he was resorting to petty theft again to get some extra money. By nineteen, forty nine, he was caught and sent to boys town, which is juvenile facility in Omaha Nebraska, but within days he and another student Blackie Nielsen obtained a gun and stole a car. Charlie was about fifteen at this point. Two boys committed to armed robberies on their way to Nielsen's articles home in Peoria Illinois turns out. Nelson's uncle is a professional thief who allegedly took them on as apprentices. Charlie was arrested again two weeks later in the night. He wasn't a very good apprentice apparently. Wasn't a very good teacher could be a little bit of both. A yeah, I'm willing to bet on that. No not. So two weeks later, he was cotton arrested in a nighttime raid of a store and was lucky enough to also have his previous two armed robberies tied to him. Did he have like the same Mo then? I don't know it didn't say oh. Yeah like Howard. How are they tying those together? FIGURE OUT him. must he must have had the same amount like he must have been like the same or. fessed up yes. Yeah after this. He was sent to a strict reform school the Indiana Voice School, where he was allegedly raped by other students at the encouragement of a staff member, what the foot and also repeatedly beaten okay, so this led him developing his own self defense technique at the school when he was physically unable to defend himself, he called this technique the insane game. And, he would screech. Grivas wave his arms to convince his aggressors that he was insane. I've heard that that's ineffective is to. Yeah pretending to be absolutely insane. Because if you're unpredictable than people don't know how to react, yeah, especially, if you're screeching. Yeah, and waving your arms in the air like you just don't care. He attempted to escape the school total of eighteen times, but was finally successful in nineteen, fifty one when he got out to other boys. Okay, so he needed to people help the. The three of them made it as far as Utah by robbing filling stations in stealing cars, trying to get to California allow. Yeah, so now he was sent to Washington DC national training. School for boys. When he was caught for the federal crime of driving a stolen car across state lines, so he got sent back all across the country after making it till you. fucking. Here, he was given like assessments and it was discovered that he was actually illiterate. Oh, but because he kept breaking out of school, I mean, but he was also beaten, so maybe it wasn't getting a whole lot of learning done anyway, brain dead, but he had an above average IQ of one hundred nine weird. Yup I thought that was okay all right, so we can like critically think, but he can't read right. Though yeah, so his caseworker deemed him aggressively antisocial. Yeah, and with that sounds about right. With that assessment, he a psychiatrist recommended that he be sent to a minimum security institution so by October. He was transferred to Natural Bridge Honor Camp. A month from his parole hearing in February, Nineteen, fifty, two Manson was caught raping a boy at knifepoint, what the fuck, and was then transferred to the federal reformatory in Petersburg Virginia. You would think had that done to you. You wouldn't want to do it to other people. But? It sounded like he was like his childhood was full of him, not being control right. In the for the first time in his life, he have him sense of control. Yeah, like not only the knife, but like the raping. Yeah, yeah with being the aggressor for once. Yeah, although he is kind of aggressor when he robs places, point but. You know at the Federal Reformatory Petersburg. He committed another eight serious disciplinary offenses three involving homosexual acts. This was a quote. I don't know what these acts were. Specifically. You can use your imagination I don't want to I don't either, but. Those, who would like to so? He was moved to a maximum security reformatory in chillicothe, e Ohio, where he was supposed to remain until his release on his twenty first birthday in November of nineteen fifty five. But was released early in May nineteen, fifty, four, due to good behavior. Why isn't a thing? Is. You hate that you can totally fake. You can fake one hundred percent of psychological thing you can do. Why is that a thing? That makes me really mad. Anytime I hear about people who've done heinous crimes and. And they're like he was released on. Good behaviour. Shot the follow up. So after he got out, he married. Jeanne Willis in January of nineteen fifty five, but by October of that year he was once more chartered a federal offence. Of taking a stolen car across state lines when he and his now pregnant wife drove from Ohio to Los Angeles a few months prior, it took him all the way from Ohio to California. Get clock. Yeah, and it was like three months after they'd already arrived in l. a. when they got caught so. Stolen car and they're like yeah. I would assume they just ran the place because they're like Ohio. So a psychiatric evaluation led to him getting five years probation, but his failure to appear at an La. Identical charge filed in Florida led to his March, Nineteen fifty-six arrests in Indianapolis where his probation was revoked, and he was sentenced to three years at Terminal Island San Pedro California in this all over the place. He's just getting a thrown into pretty much every prison. No! Maybe as a bucket list. He's like Neptune. Nobody does that way. He doesn't even know he's like. Check them off. He's got one of those little scratch lists where you Check it out by got it scratch and sniff. So of course Ananias. California would probably like orange maybe. Got Us oh, that's true. Rapport your favorite. So, obviously Rowsley gave birth to Charles Manson junior while Manson was in his first year imprisoned. Pregnant when he went in so the following year in nineteen, fifty seven. He had sorry she had stopped visiting. Was Living with another man. Okay, his mom told him know. All right I don't. Like following him across the country like his mom, yeah. So less than two weeks before his parole hearing Manson attempted to escape by stealing a car and was given five years probation. and. Parole was obviously denied. It's so repetitive dealer. Car Jail Steel. I know tried to escape tale like why. Why even bother just just turf your time at this point? You to get parole. By nineteen, Fifty, eight Manson was given five years. Parole in Rosalie had divorced him spice. Don't blame her, however by October. He was pimping a sixteen year old girl, and another girl from a wealthy family was supporting him already having girls taking care of him. Teenage girls, teenage girls in September of Nineteen fifty, nine Manson pleaded guilty to charge of attempting to cash a forged US treasury check and ended up receiving a ten year, suspended sentence and probation after a young prostitute named Leona made a tearful plea before the court that they were deeply in love and would marry. Harley were freed okay, so the beginning of the cult not quite, but we're getting there all right. Yeah, inching slowly and slowly up through the wormhole. They did in fact. Get marriage. Oh! Within the year Manson was next held and questioned for violating the Mann Act by taking his new wife, Leona and another woman to New Mexico for the purposes of prostitution, the man act for those of you who may not know made it a felony charge to engage in interstate or foreign commerce of transport of any woman or girl, for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery, or any other immoral purpose so trafficking. Yes, that was my thought while I was reading that earlier. Human Trafficking Yeah after one of the women was caught for prostitution Manson was arrested shortly after ended up serving out his ten year sentence having violated his probation on the forge treasury check, so he went back to prison for that from July. Nineteen, sixty one to June nineteen, sixty six Manson was kept in the United States penitentiary at McNeil Island Washington where he took guitar lessons from Alvin Creepy Carcass, creepy carcass. Is. Nickname was creepy. Because that's a nickname, you want the leader of the Barker carpets game so in June nineteen sixty six. Manson was sent back to Terminal Island to prepare for early release by March. Twenty first nineteen. Sixty seven has released A. he had spent more than half of his thirty two years of life in prison and other institutions sounds about right. He even told authorities that prison had become his home and requested permission to stay L.. was denied yeah. So. Yeah that was interesting to me. He was like yeah. You know which I guess I have heard of that. Yeah, that reminds me like yeah. I think that's what we're going to talk to you on that. There's a lot of killers who end up in jail on. They're like you shouldn't let me out like I'm just going to do some bad shit when I get out. Because they don't know how to be people anymore. They don't know how to live in society. Yeah, how live in jail they know how? Criminals like. Being Standing Member of society, we'll even outside of that. Isn't it? Like what the? Shawshank redemption one of them explorers like somebody got released, and they just didn't know how to deal with it and I think they committed suicide. That's like PTSD with soldiers. Yeah, like you just don't know powder. Be Normal Person. Yeah, so yeah I thought that was interesting, but it does make sense. So Manson emerged from prison into an era of free love. Right the Senate he quickly begin to attract a group of followers from around California. Mostly Young Women Manson was able to sense the alien nation bewilderment in weakness of the Hippie culture and knew just how to explain them. He had an uncanny knack for finding girls who were damaged receptive to his thoughts and ideas, women who had hole in their lives that they were looking to fill somebody missing that they needed like a father figure, or whatever, yeah, so people, the second member to be recruited to the Manson family was from She had just been thrown out by her parents and Manson. pull up and got out saying your parents through your out, didn't they? She asked him how he knew that he just knew the look on her. Yeah But from the sound of it, it's not like shaller stuff with her. Okay. So she asked him how he knew and I I assume he offered to let her come with him. Yeah, she says that he waited about thirty seconds and told her he can't make up. For her, and said goodbye, and he left, he got about halfway down the block before she gathered upper stuff when after. It's like when you play the the phone call game after you go on a date with someone I'm going to wait three days. But she was just totally flabbergasted she but she had also thought he was a genius and a psychic. Knew that she had been thrown out of her house. Yeah, even though the signs were blatantly. The sad girl on the side of the road with a bunch of belongings. And your young until if you're a teenager. Still Live with your parents. Let's either apparent or an ex-boyfriend. With you being young enough. You were probably thrown out by your parents yet so. Yes she. I guess it's safe to say that. She was enamored from the start. And from video interviews I've seen cheese most certainly still enamored with the man like she gets a little sparkle in her eye and smiles at the mention of him. Yeah, it's scary and she's like what in her sixties now yeah! I think so for her. Though life improved dramatically once she became a part of the Manson family because he was able to escape from the frightening household where she was treated like A. A wrongdoer by her father, so Manson very quickly became like father figure for her like I think he did for a lot of other girls. Yeah, a lot of the girls were really young like you said yeah, so the core members of his group included his right hand Lynette squeaky from Charles Tex Watson Robert Beausoleil. Mary Burner, who I believe was actually the first person he took it and she was a librarian. Inch Susan Atkins Linda Abyan Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten. So the Group of about twenty five young people settled on abandoned movie set called spawns movie ranch, nineteen, sixty eight. Every member had their role to play. The more attractive women were kind of sent out to take advantage of men surprise surprise considering he used to prostitute other girls yeah, squeaky was the group's den mother, so she was sort of like the motherly figure. She was always kind of like there to take care of people and stuff like that. And Pat was sort of enforcer she if anybody was questioning whether they should be there or if they wanted to stay or if they were trying to get out, there would be sent to her, and she would somehow kind of convince them that it. You know it was okay to stay made them. So former members also state that Manson would offer them LSD, so they were constantly tripping. And tell them to take it, but would either never partake of it himself, or he would take much smaller doses to kind of maintain his own lucidity interesting, but is it really that surprising because he could make them more successful? Yeah, say that kind of plays into the control aspect where. Like all you as tripping, I'm not so I, can make you do nervous i. want you to yeah, so he was always kind of preaching to them in his own way of just like you know his bizarre I say thoughts, but like he would say things that to them because they were under the influence, just like prophetic like you know, time didn't exist. Before man came around man invented time. Mind like go shit. I can't believe I never thought of that before. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense for how he was able to like manipulate an influence them that they were just constantly in a state of high. And such a large group and it was so you know it was so rampant at the time. Know the whole free love Euro with drugs and all that just being everywhere. So that's all I have about our lovely Charles Manson and his people his. Trigger warning what she had to get into is It's very brutal. It's very glory. Yeah, so I'm sorry, but if you're sensitive or you're listening in an environment where it is sensitive, hopefully, not listening with your children, but yeah, put your headphones on or off. Yeah, you know, wait till later we'll. We'll give you a second. Okay, so in his life. Manson was essentially a failed rock and roll star. While in prison in the early sixties, he taught himself how to play guitar. Well sort of sort of little little bit of hope. Yeah, there was another inmate and that kind of helped him, and then after his release he went to San Francisco where he met Gary Hinman. That's someone I'll touch on later. Gary Hinman. Put Him in touch with Dennis Wilson. who was a member of the beach boys? Wilson then introduced Manson to music producer, Terry Melcher. who kind of Kit Manson on the hook? Because he considered producing him after hearing Manson's music, but like ultimately decided not to, and he kinda ghosted Manson. Dick Yeah and the reason why I bring this up is because the house of Sharon Tate Roman Polanski were that they were renting. So it was the former house of Terry Melcher. So Terry Melcher was a previous renter before tate and Polanski took it over. So there's some theories as to why Manson in the family chose the House that they did was Sharon tate and Polanski the night of the murders at this time, Laurel Canyon was like the center of rock and roll culture. Okay and many famous residents live there so naturally. Manson gravitated towards the area. Right. Manson was also really familiar with the house because he visited while Terry Melcher live there that make sense. Yeah, there was even an account from Sharon's personal photographer Khatami. That Manson actually came to the House one day asking for. Melcher but Khatami told him that this was a Polanski residence. Like maybe you're looking for a neighbor sharing peyton Roman Polanski implants deliver now. In Sharon was supposedly on the front porch during the time, and there was nothing obstructing her and Manson so chances are they saw each other? Right, and so Manson like fully knew that like Belcher didn't live in this house anymore but in. The area is similar with the House. It's just really ominous I don't know. Maybe he was kind of hoping that well. Maybe he doesn't live here anymore. Maybe you know where he lives now or maybe you know. Maybe he was just kind of reaching. Yeah, because he was looking for Melcher, appears like I said he was like on the hook, but like Malchow like goes at him, and he's like. Yeah, no I'm not gonNA produce you. Know! He didn't even go so far as to say that he was looking. Because he like the bigwig music producer. Who Cares if like I ghost? This link random person off the street you know. How to play Guitar Prison, Yatch and so like I ride that he was just okay like he wasn't good. He wasn't bad, just okay. Right, obviously, like nothing worth being famous like the beach, boys or something, right? So that's why Terry Melcher just like I'm not going to give him the time of day, not worth. My time still took him still yeah. So talking about rock and roll in the sixties, Manson was obsessed with the Beatles. he even told multiple people that if given the chance, he could be bigger than the Beatles. Oh my God, but I mean realistically who wasn't obsessed with the Beatles at the time. Yeah true. I know. My mother was a huge fan. Well! Why not. So he took some songs and lyrics from their white album, and connected it to the New Testament's book of revelations in the Bible. which like if you're not familiar with that book? Kind depicts like the end of times. And I didn't list this. Because this is just such a heavy topic, but if you go on, wikipedia the actually have a list of lyrics from the album and leaner. What the lyrics word and then how Manson interpreted that lyric really so it was really interesting. Yeah, I didn't put in any examples or anything, but I just want to reference you to that wikipedia article. It's fascinating. But one that I do want to mention is helter skelter. I'm sure if you've heard of Manson, you've heard of yearly familiar with the term. You may not know what it is. But have heard some sort of connection between helter skelter. Manson, Yup, so it's a song by the Beatles on the white album, and it was originally it was named after a slide found in playground amusement parks that like twist and turn. Ya You know I, get that yeah yeah okay, and Manson interpreted the song differently and later started saying that helter skelter was an oncoming race board that he had always been prophesyzing about. I would love to read his interpretation of the lyrics because that blows my mind that they were talking slide here of all. And he was like. War Yeah wars coming. Yeah, but not just any war well, because apparently hid always talked about this oncoming race war, and it wasn't until he heard helter skelter where he named it helter skelter. I mean in reality. He wasn't wrong. It it has. Rights movement, yeah, the civil rights movement like really took a took a stronghold in the sixty s obviously like there has been like centuries of turmoil between. Blacks and whites and stuff like that, so he's not wrong that something like that was coming, but Even still today I mean it's insane yeah. He said that the race riots and the black militancy of the sixties was just beginning. And during the war, he and his family would hide out underground in after it all ended, they would rise from the rubble and be on top and of role. What was left? Who did he think was going to win? Or does he? He? Yeah, he thought that the blacks would win. So. Brittle me this. How is he going to prophesized that? The blacks are gonNA rise up against the whites and take them down. And then he's going to rise from the rubble, a white man, so this is where. I'm uncomfortable talking honey I but there is an answer to your question, so he felt that the blacks would win. Right. But. They were too uneducated to know had rule. Says the illiterate asshole now who's getting prison his whole life, so he was he and his family. We're going to teach them. How to rule. And by doing, so they would be on top with the ruling race. I promise you. They know how to rule without you. Chair if they if they ever wanted that, they want that. So. That's the answer to your question. Yes. At his trial which you're gonNA, get into later We're just GONNA touch on a little bit because he mentioned helter skelter. So at his trial, when asked about why he committed the murders Manson said it's the Beatles the music they're putting out. These kids listen to this music and pick up the message. Slow subliminal. Yet and in an interview with rolling stone in one, thousand, nine, hundred seventy, he said this music is bringing on the revolution, the unorganized overthrow of the establishment. The Beatles know what's happening in a sense that the subconscious knows. So essentially he was listening to the Beatles and he was like. Yeah. The Beatles know exactly what I'm talking about like in all, these kids are listening to it, so they're the ones who influenced. Yeah, the listen to me when it's time yeah! Go Man so in an interview when asked about Manson and the connection to helter skelter, Paul McCartney said that he titled after an Amusement Park Ride. And it was originally a metaphor for the downfall of civilization. which yeah I was Kinda confused with Mike Yeah that kind of sounds like how Manson interpreted it. I mean the only thing he did was at his own flair to it by. Yeah, they racehorse specific. But he. He pretty much. Hit the nail on the head. So he said quote I was using the symbol of helter skelter as a ride from the top to the bottom, the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, and this was the fall the demise. The going down right which I mean I mean, yeah, I could see how Manson would have gotten that if that's Paul McCartney had originally intended. Yeah I mean they literally intended for it to be. The society's coming to an end. Yeah, in a helter skelter sort of way. And that's what he read. Yeah, a lot of the other. The other Beatles members had things to say about it like John Lennon was like kids. These days are always looking for meanings in our lyrics It has nothing to do with that. People are always reading between the lines and stuff like that so. Yes and so I'M GONNA. Talk about the murder victims now and before I get into how they died I wanted to kind of background on who they were as people. Right because their name was just Kinda went down in history as like these gruesome like murders, with by the Manson family and I just want to kind of give you a little bit of who they actually were. Give him the respect as the list of people who died and pretty much. Yes pretty much. All these articles like Manson family murder victims I'm like they were people yes. Victims, they most certainly and like they all like had their place in Hollywood like old Hollywood. So the first victim Sharon tate. She was born in Dallas Texas on January. Twenty, fourth, nineteen, forty three, she was a model and actress who was known for her roles, jaded, recurring role in the beverly hillbillies her first. Major role in a movie was I of the Devil. And she was also co starring with her future husband Roman Polanski in the fearless vampire, interesting yeah, and then one of her breakout roles was valley of the dolls during her audition for the fearless vampire. Actually, that's when she met Polanski. Because? He was the director and Co Star. Yeah at the time. However, she was dating JC bring. No and he is actually one of the other murder victims awhile. I'll tell you stayed friends. Yes, so actually when Sharon wanted to break up with Jay, so she could be with Polanski. Jay Actually flew to London to try to fight for her. Oh my goodness out! I. With after meeting Polanski, he decided he liked him and he was a good guy. Oh Yeah and gave sharing his blessing, because Sharon was just like head over heels for Polanski and then Jay was like. He's a good guy, and then after that the three were just really good friends. Yeah in one, thousand, nine, hundred, Sixty, eight. Sharon Tate in Roman Polanski married in London and she became pregnant shortly after that. And then they rented the House the infamous House on Cielo. Drive that no longer exists that no longer exists. so during her life, Sharon served as a fashion icon, and even currently her style is still a major influence Oh for instance in a twenty ten photo shoot Drew Barrymore took inspiration from Sharon tate style for Harper Bazaar Magazines Bread. Interesting and the costume designer of Madman stated that she took inspiration from Sharon wind. She dressed Megan draper. Let's cool, and then like so Sharon was just like this really like bubbly like nice down to earth kind of person. rages like really liked her. So Jay, sebring, he was born in Birmingham. Alabama on October Tenth Nineteen thirty three. So he was ten years older than than Sharon, he was a very famous hair stylist to the stars and Hollywood and he founded the International Corporation. Let's go. He was known for innovating cutting men's hair, so I read about this like using scissors instead of strangers or something like that and shampooing ammann's hair before cutting it, and just like all the things you kind of know of today. He kind of innovative that for men's hair and so it. I read. It bumped the prices of men's haircuts from like one dollars to fifty dollars. So I'm like okay. But he was a he was a hairdresser to the stars, and some of its clients were Steve. McQueen. Frank Sinatra Sammy Davis Junior. So like a lot of really famous people in. Yeah. That's cool. He even helped jump start. Bruce Lee's career. which I thought was fascinating. Nice, so he met Lee at a karate championship in Long Beach California. And then he introduced him to his friend Bill Dosier. who was a producer and later Bruce Lee was cast as Kato in the Green Hornet. Oh Wow, 'cause bill. Do you know anybody that's good at martial arts. I'm trying to fill this role and JC brings like Guy I'm at school. Yeah, so those very cool. Yeah, and then actually Steve McQueen, said a eulogy Jay's funeral so vegetarian tells you like the influence he had in. It didn't just cut her. And then Abigail folder. which folder might sound familiar to you? the coffee. Father's favorite. Yes, the best thing in your cup right. Thing Waking. Best part of Waking Up. Okay, I'm not going to do that. Spoke! Coat, but you will. So she was born August eleventh, nineteen, forty three, and she was born into a wealthy family, and was the heiress to the folger's coffee fortune. She was a debutante and a model student who graduated from Harvard with an art history degree. And when she was in New York, she worked in a bookstore and then lady. She worked as a social worker and lower class areas. And it was in new. York than she met her boyfriend Vojtech for a Caskey He was an aspiring writer, and then they short shortly started dating. They moved to Los Angeles where they rented a home in the Hollywood hills. And Abigail actually volunteered as a social worker in the rough neighborhoods of La during this time as well. So, she was just a all around good girl. That's cool so Vojtech for Caskey her boyfriend, but he was born December, twenty, second nineteen, thirty six in Poland and he was said to be a troublemaker in school to insult who is when was when he actually met Roman Polanski. So, he met them while almost getting into a fistfight with each other. Roman Polanski was like the bouncer doorman of this school dance doorman. Yeah! Man, and he was trying to prevent Frankowski from coming in because he knew he was a troublemaker right and he was like. You're just going to mess up the dance for everybody in some like they almost got into a fistfight fight but they later became good friends and drinking buddies. Later like after for cows, skis, death like Polanski said. His tough exterior Vojtech was a good natured, soft hearted to the point of sentimentality and loyal. And Roman Polanski eventually began making his way into the film industry in Poland and Vojtech him around kind of helping him where he could. Eventually. Polanski went on to do his own thing. And vojtech was kind of wandering around looking for his own path in life, and that's how we ended up in New, York, where he met Abigail through mutual friends, the good girl. Yes, girl meets the bad boy, yeah! since Vojtech was a close friend of Roman Polanski. Naturally Abigail would frequently visit Sharon and Roman at their home. Actually while away scouting film locations and working on various film projects in London. Sharon in Roman asked Abigail and Vojtech to move into their home on Ceelo drive and house while they were away. Because, it was like a few months. That they were going to be con- for because they were working on film projects looking for film location things like that. But sharing was heavily pregnant, and so she returned home from London ahead of Romans or Roman kind of stayed back in London to continue working while sharing just came back to la, so she was eight months pregnant. At this time. So then we have Leena La. BIANCA LURKER! He was born. August sixth, nineteen, twenty five, and he was the son of Italian American immigrants through his early life. He followed in his father's footsteps into the grocery store industry, so he was like a wealthy owner of a supermarket. Served in world, war two and after returning. He married his high school sweetheart and had three kids with her. Wow although they later got divorced. Oh. Lino married Rosemary, so Rosemary Labianca. It's kind of if he on where she was born. They said she was born in Mexico. so she was raised in an orphanage in Arizona until she was twelve, and then she was adopted by the Ham, the harmon family after getting married and having kids of their own. She also got divorced prior to meeting Lino. Like, this was kind of a time where divorce was kind of like starting to get okay like like socially acceptable, and also like she's Mexican and La Bianca is a white person so mixed. Marriages were also starting to become a little bit more acceptable while so they're both doing really well for themselves Selena was running his successful supermarket business and Rosemary actually opened up a high dress dress shop in the same little mini mall of market. Yes, they're doing like really well for themselves, yeah! A little brief biographies of the other all emerged entrepreneurial in a way. Yeah, most of them anyway. Most of them. So! Let's get back to Manzoor in the family. Yeah, whether it was because of his failing music career, and his Hollywood connections were drying up, or for whatever other reason Manson believe that if helter skelter was going to happen, he and his family would be the one start at themselves right so their first victim was Gary Hinman broker, so the man I mentioned before. It was it happened on July. Twenty, fifth nineteen, sixty nine, so like I said he was actually a friend of Manson's, so the family knew him very well, and he is a musician and a music teacher, and it wasn't really clarified why Manson in the family targeted him. There's different theories in different speculations as to why. One of them was like maybe he crossed. Bobby boost lay in a bad drug deal. or he crossed another family member or like they were just after Gary's inheritance money, or they were like trying to get gary to join the cult, and he just kept refusing yeah. There's actually also a rumor that Manson attempted to murder. A drug dealer named Bernard Crow and the it was attempted murder. He didn't actually die. Manson needed the money to move out of spahn ranch before they were rated before they found him. Because crowded didn't die, so he could name Manson as his attempted murder so speculations, but regardless of the reason. On Channel Nine thousand nine, hundred sixty nine bobby. Salei went to Gary's house and tied him up. And then he called Manson and some other family members to come help, and they tortured him for several days before they eventually killed him. Oh my God during the torture Manson's life sliced off his ear with. A sword. To get that. Do you have to question anything that he does. At this point I mean it didn't sound like. He walked around with a sword on like the daily, just curious. This is the first I'm hearing about a sword. Yes, so he cut off Gary's ear and the girls who were with him, which were Susan Collins and Mary. Brunner so the two girls you mentioned. They sewed it back up dental floss. Oh! Yeah. No, But whatever it's called. The family members then held a pillow over Hinman face wall. Bobby stabbed him repeatedly until he died. So, they wrote political piggy in Henman's blood. Andrew pop print to make it look like the Black Panthers did it. Because they wanted to throw the authorities off their trail, and maybe it'll help start the race war right because a block printer very active at this time. And, so they didn't want the merge be tied back to the family. There's also a theory that they wanted to kind of create a string of murders similar to each other, so that when they committed the tate labianca murders later on, it would seem like a copycat murder or that Manson wanted to commit more brutal and shocking murders to get the nation's attention over days later on August eighth. Manson woke up the family members. Members in the middle of the night, so he woke up Tex Watson Linda Ca Sabin Susan Atkins and Patricia Krenwinkel in the middle of the night, and told them to dress in dark clothes in an interview Patricia Krenwinkel said Manson instructed them to do everything instructed. The techs told them to do so we kind of Texan charge of everything right so whatever tech said it was essentially directly for Manson so listened to him. So Manson told text to kill everyone in the house at the Cielo, drive residence and everyone that lived on that road. Okay, so he wanted the family member should just go up and down the road and kill everybody, not just Sharon Tate. he even told them how to get into the House since he was familiar with it from his previous visits with Melcher. Yeah. And like you said he knew her didn't live there. Yeah, so he was literally just can't well. I'm just going to pick this house because I know how to get into it so much sooner. The people that live there. He told them to make the murders look witchy. I remember hearing that end to right which he things on the walls. Yeah, and squish eyeballs on the walls, make you. As, you can okay, no, but the Abbas. It's gross. Lyndon Kosabe state back in the car to keep watches the getaway, driver, and so tex. Susan and Patricia made their way to the house. Tax climbed a telephone pole and cut the phone lines to the house, and then he jumped over the gate at the gate of the driveway. The first victim was actually eighteen year old Stephen. Parent who just kind of in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was visiting the caretaker of the Polanski residents. and. He was leaving like around midnight. He was leaving the home and if he left a few minutes earlier. Maybe I would have been fine. He was right at the gate when tanks jumped. Texts shot him. Four Times point blank and then stabbed him. God why I don't know excessive. Yeah and so tax walked up. The driveway snuck into the House the dining room window and let the girls in the front door. The first person they saw was Vojtech and he was lying on the couch in the living room. Vojtech asked who they were in Texas. I'm the devil here to do the Devil's work. Give me all your money. Oh, wow, yeah, he sent Susan Atkins to check the rest of the house to see if there are any other people in this part was creepy to me, so she walked down. The hallway looked into a room, saw Abigail reading a book on her bed. She smiled and waved at Abigail Abigail Smile and waved back. So I'm like you have this fucking intruder in your house or someone you've never seen before zooming the other people let her in. I mean clearly yeah for all. She knows there. She's a friend of somebody's. If the if you're walking around confidently, yeah, and smiling and waving. Must Belong here like I just thought it was so eerie. especially, the Abigail smile waved back. Oh yeah all the video footage of the. And, just how little they care is shocking I've seen a lot of pictures, and they're just like at their hearings and stuff they have smiles yeah. Fuck. So Susan continued towards the back of the House. And then she saw sharing J. in it back bedroom, talking to each other, so Susan went back to the living room to report tax what she saw that there were other people in the house, and he told her to round everybody up into the living room with a knife. He also instructed Susan to tie Vojtech up with a towel. So let's. Do all the work will Yeah. Yeah, but link with a towel. I know that's yeah, but they also had ropes because they tied ropes around Jay. Insurance Nex so. There's also a phone cord somewhere. Yeah more effective than Tau although we. We don't really want them to be more effective through. The way. He was tied an how haphazard he was tied into something later so. When Jay tried to defend Sharon saying, can't you see she's pregnant trying to defend her? Because at this point Sharon was eight months pregnant shoes very heavily pregnant. Texts shot him? And then when he fell to the ground, he started stabbing in kicking him until he died. My God and I think shot him a couple more times. Lord yeah because he stood up and try to defend Sharon like. To his last dying breasts like he cared about Sharon was protecting his wife the love of his life well, Jay wasn't his wife. Right I mean Sharon. Wasn't Z. Y. Yeah but extra. Yay Vojtech only bound by the towel. He was able to get loose, so he ran out the front door. Texts chased him down, tackled him on the Front Lawn where he stabbed him fifty one times and shot him twice. Yeah, Abigail also attempted to escape. She managed to run out the side door, and Patricia chased after her tackled her in Stanford Twenty one times. In an interview Patricia said Abigail whispered I'm already dead after she was stabbed the first time. And I'm like. Just, remembering like what you're victims, last words were light. Yeah like clearly haunted her for her entire life. Stole remembering it now. Yeah! I was watching. A documentary called the six degrees of helter skelter. There was a coroner who was kind of going over the autopsies of all the murder victims. And he said that the pattern of the stab wounds on Abigail Body it seemed like very frantic in frenzied right kind of like the attacker. Just like crazy going on, it's dabbing wherever and there were also sends that Abigail tried to fight off the attack. Right so you're listening to you I mean yeah. I'm just going to lay there and be like. Sharon was the last to die the whole time. She was pleading for her life and the life of her baby. She even said they kidnap her and kill her. Once the baby was born, she just wanted to make her baby was alive. And Susan said that she was tired of hearing. Sharon's whining and said to her look bitch I have no mercy for you. And then she stabbed Sharon Sixteen Times. Oh my God she carbon x on Sharon's abdomen. She was even tempted to cut the baby out of the womb to present it as a gift to Manson, oh. My God, she didn't do that, but the I saw in the document there. Yeah, the documentary I watched. They were crime scene photos an so disturbing because you could literally see a very pregnant Sharon tate bloodied on the floor Oh God yeah! That's awful. also document documentary. They mentioned. Had Susan cut the baby out of the womb. It might have lived as research survivor. like they said that if sharing was rushed to the hospital after the attack, the baby could have lived, but because it took a little while for paramedics to get there. Obviously, it wasn't reported until the following morning when the housekeeper came. Yeah, there was like literally nobody there. Everybody that was in the house died, and it wasn't until the housekeeper showed up the next morning, and saw all his bodies fucking elaine everywhere. And there wasn't going to be anybody coming, but speaking of if you know back to things like if something had happened a certain way, if that eighteen year old kid has left that few minutes earlier like you said. Number One, he might have survived a number two. He might have seen them showing up. Yeah, and he might have been able to at least run to a neighbor for help or yeah hide. For help like 'cause what was interesting is like they planned this down to the detail in that like Manson told them to park up the street and then walk to the house. So they can't so they couldn't connect the car to them the crime. Yeah, yeah, so they were essentially because like up in the in the hills where they lived, it was very common for people to just walk through just out of nowhere, so people wouldn't have noticed that like all the just us. Four people just walking down the road. Isn't saying to me that he's that smart and at the same time was constantly getting caught for everything. Like how how maybe he wanted to? I guess at some point in his life I think he was just kind of like. Yes, sweet, take me back to jail, but man before the family members left the house. Susan wrote pig on the front door in Sharon's blood. Oh God yeah, so kind of like playing into what they did at Henman's house. WHERE POLITICAL PIGGIES! Yeah so after that they drove down the street in stopped a random driveway, two hose off their bloody close. The owner of the House came out inside and I was like what the fuck you guys do, and you need to leave, and so like the family did the owner of the house was smart, and took down the license plate of the car, which ended up being a very important detail during the prosecution ochre, so while they were driving textile Linda to wipe off the fingerprints to the gun that they used in the murders and throw it out the car window into the Canyon. The gun ended up landing in the backyard Bernard Weiss. which was found a month later by his son, and turned into the police Africa yeah dumb. The night after the murders at the State House some sources said that Manson wasn't happy with the results, the murderers and called them sloppy, but so he decided to take the four back out along with two other members, Leslie Van Houten and Steve Grogan to go find another murder to commit. So. They found their way into the LOS FELICES area of La in stumbled upon the house of Leno and Rosemary, Labianca it was said that Manson chose this house because he used to party in a neighboring house. And since he couldn't go back there because they might tie the murders to him, they chose a house randomly across the street. Quote Unquote Randomly yes I mean I guess it was random, but it was random. House they chose, but it wasn't random in how they got there. Yeah, Yeah Texan Manson were the first to go into the house. Manson found Lino on the couch, and Rosemary was in the bedroom in a interview with Diane Sawyer. He talks about how he in texts like one of the first people in the house. And he said he saw a guy sitting on the couch, and so Manson is just sitting there putting his dog and who's like? Hi, and then the guy said hi back. So fucking weirdly. How are you not fucking scared that somebody's just randomly showed up in your house. Yeah, like how you're not immediately alarmed or no I did read somewhere that kind of like these murders influenced people or like make people kind of second guess you know locking their doors that makes sense because a lot of people at this time would leave their doors unlocked, so people could just walk in and out. Yeah, yeah, so we're time the. Game even imagine living then. Yeah Manson text tied up the couple with some leather laces that Manson happened to have around his neck told them that no harm would come to them. They were just thirty rob them right and then Manson left, and he took some some girls with him, but some and left, and the other girls went into the house to join texts m. that's when the shit went down. Text, tied pillows around the couple's heads with electrical cords attached to lamps. He's got a real thing about pillows on people's faces I. Don't know. Maybe it's to like level the screen. Yeah. Tex Stabbed Lino in the neck with a bayonet. Oh my God. Yes, only random fucking weapons! Well. It was kind of brought up that like. Around the time when? Manson I got the helter skelter thing in his head. They started the the compound that everybody was living in stopped being like a place of love and happiness, like they started learning how to kill people, and they started bringing in a bunch of weapons and stuff. Oh! Yeah, so it wasn't like just you know Oh. Let's just grabbed these girls and just see how they do. They were teaching them how to do stuff and I think from there. He kind of gauged, who could or could not carry out something like wow, so that's why he. He picked the four people to the tate. Murderers did the with yeah, okay. The same, and they were like these really heinous murders yet because I had I heard in an interview with somebody that they the reason that you know squeaky his right hand girl like the one who's pretty much at his heels. I mean Sadie I guess is the same way Susan Yeah the reason that. Eighty. squeaky wasn't involved in any of this was because he didn't think that she was capable of killing someone. Like Gavin I was so enamored with him. She would do whatever he wanted to. He just didn't think she had I. Think the Physical Strength. Do it or that? He just couldn't picture her doing it. Yeah interesting. Yeah I, mean I feel like if you're empowered enough, even do anything. And, so like, if this guy that you're in love with, says hey killed as person shirt. Yeah, but even she said you know I can. I can see that being pretty difficult sticky work. Even. She kind of agreed with that assessment. I am Yeah I. AM probably GonNa. Yeah, you're probably right. But he did say so. Of course she's going to believe it. Yeah, so he stabbed Leno in the neck with a bayonet. In case, you forgot detail, nope, the. And when he did this Lino, something similar to what Abigail said, he was like I'm dead. I'm dead. Yeah, and when Rosemary heard them attacking her husband, she began to blindly and violently swing the lamp. Those attacked jail electric cord, though trying to just like hit anything like she knew. The two girls were in the room with her. And, so she was just trying to hit anybody with. What good job. You went down fucking swinging. Go Girl Yeah. But when he heard the commotion texts came into the bedroom and started stabbing rosemary. And, he handed a knife to leslie inside. Do something. Because Manson had told him to make sure that everyone got their hands dirty. So Leslie took the knife and stabbed Rosemary in the back sixteen. Times. Oh my God in total rosemary was stabbed forty one times. Homework God. Yeah, it's really brutal. All over the body to arms, legs, but abdomen everywhere. Yeah, just like okay. Well I guess I'll pin cushion her I. Don't know that's insane yeah. Lino was ultimately stabbed thirteen times before he died. Patricia then carved the word war into his abdomen, and then stabbed him multiple times with a fork. Yeah, I was GonNa, say he was stabbed that where he died. How many was he stabbed after he did I? Think I want to say the autopsy report said he had like seven four puncture, wounds or something like that. But then she just leaves the fork in his abdomen. God. Goes Away. No, they didn't. They didn't do pig they did. Wars say that goes along with the. They did they did the so here's. Here's the things that they wrote on. The Wall is more things. It was more than just one word. Right, so they wrote the word rise. As if like the family going to rise up after the war, they wrote death to piggies. And they wrote helter skelter on the fridge, but they spelt helter wrong. This belt, Helter H. E. A.. L. T.. User, yes. Maybe. It's because Manson was illiterate, so everybody else will do. Not Spell for you on the album. Like I said, Manson took a couple of the other girls and left so while this murder was happening. Manson took the rest of the family members to Venice beach where their next target was Lebanese actor solid in deere. The reason why they knew about him, and where he lived was prior to this Lyndyk Abyan. Who one of the girls with Manson? Had A sexual relationship within the deer. However since Linda felt guilty for what was about to come, she lied about what apartment number year lived in Oh, yeah since they didn't find him at the fake apartment, they decided to leave and not kill anyone. I was GONNA say I. Don't remember hearing about this murder. Yeah, it was in the documentary. The six degrees of helter skelter right so like the murder didn't actually happen because Linda was like. Oh No, he lives in this apartment. But like what did they do just walking black? Me Are you near. Yeah so they like, so they actually knocked on. That apartment door saw that it wasn't a deer and was like all right, and then just left. Fork. Well, maybe because he wasn't anybody famous would've made an impact or like obviously. They didn't go to either of those other houses with those specific targets in mind. They're like no specific houses. Whoever's in there must die whereas this person's case, they just kind of go with us. Open Civic. Yeah, since they didn't find that person, it's like well. Yeah, yeah, decided to leave, not kill anybody, but not before Susan decided to take a dump in the Stairwell Oh my God. You woman. Okay this. Is Dumb at this time. Manson still had rosemary's wallet with him, so he told Lyndon to wipe down the Prince and hide the wall in a gas station bathroom where he'd hoped. A black person would find it. Use It to finance the upcoming race war. Yeah? And then he would coach them over yeah. So the wall. It wasn't actually found until December of that year, and at that point, the moisture of the toilet practically disintegrated it and this contents couldn't even be identified. Jesus phrased yeah, but so after after that they all went to Denny's an enjoy milkshakes together. Yeah I can see that. At first authorities had no idea that the Manson family was even involved in the murders of Tate Law Bianca's. They thought it was like a random like a random robbery that went bad or a drug deal. That went bad because actually taken abigail. We're KINDA KNOWN TO PARTAKE IN SUBSTANCES RIGHT? Yeah, so they they're thinking. Maybe it was like a drug deal that went bad by involving one of them or what, but like for a while. They didn't even know it was Manson. It was months before they even link them together so actually one week after the murders took place. The police rated spun ranch, not looking for murderers. Arrested Manson and other members of the family on suspicion of running an auto theft ring. Because there is a technical error in the warrant. They were all released a few days later. Yeah. They went there looking for stolen Dune buggies. Yeah Yep Yep. Not even knowing that they fucking communities brutal murders. Yeah, but. They were able to like. Play it off as they're not guilty enough to be able to re released like any other person with a normal conscience would have been freaking the fuck out. About the police, just showing up at your compound, but they're all like fucking sociopaths. They have no empathy and they're just like most all on drugs, so that to. Maybe they don't remember what they did. So Manson went back to the ranch, looking for someone to blame for the raid of course and Manson chose a ranch hand named Donald Shorty Shea. Remember the he was killed around August twenty fifth, so a few weeks later after the raid Manson. Bruce, Davis and Stephen. Grogan were arrested for the murder of shorty right and it actually wasn't until like nineteen. Nineteen seventy seven that Stephen Grogan confess where the body was Irqah well, so Manson and the family left Spahn ranch after that and moved to Barca ranch in death valley. were. It was also eventually rated. Manson and other family members were arrested for murder and sentenced to death. Now that you've ruined the outcome of the trial. Totally didn't know spoiler. Alert GONNA. Talk about the trial. So the trial began on July Fifteenth Nineteen seventy with Charles Manson, being tried for the murder and co-defendants Leslie Van Houten Susan Atkins and Patricia Krenwinkel. On the first day of testimony July Twenty Fourth Manson appeared in court with x carved into his forehead. which he claimed to have done saying I have X. Myself from your world. He canceled himself. Canceled Culture can't come canceling muscle canceling missile from your world. I don't exist. Can't try me. Exist. What are your lawbooks? Say about that. Totally would never sound like that ever well I don't know He. He was a free thinker, just out loud. His co-defendants appeared the next day with their ex carved into their foreheads. Okay, so already just playing right into the fact that they blindly follow everything he does. They do it themselves, or did he do? They did it themselves? I e. Okay so throughout the trial Manson and his co-defendants would interrupt and mock proceedings to the extent that they were repeatedly removed from. To be forced to listen to the testimonies being given from elsewhere in the courtroom. Courthouse. But in interviews with the girls, you know much later in time. They said that he would actually tell them what to do. To disrupt proceedings that day. Wow, yeah, so every day was just scripted way of disrupting everything. That's weird. Was He planning on getting from that? I would assume just dragging it out. Yeah, just postponing the inevitable. Of the death sentence, or maybe you tried to go for some kind of sanity. Thing. I don't know. So at some point during the trial, Manson family members outside of the courthouse, showed up in saffron robes, and threatened to immolate themselves or set themselves on fire. The fuck if Manson was convicted. Which I guess! Some nuns in Vietnam had done to protest the Vietnam. War pretty recently in. Wow Yeah and I guess they. Throughout the entirety of the trial, there were members outside all the time including squeaky. Holding vigil in talking to the press in just just like touting that there's nothing wrong. They're innocent. They do anything or at the very least touting that he's innocent I, don't think they really gave a shit about their sisters. Yeah I mean there was. A lot of conspiracy that Manson. Never actually like committed the murders. It's not really a conspiracy, because if you think about it, he didn't he? Ordered people to do it, but he did not actually do it. which was genius on his part. There was the attempted murder of that drug dealer though. But I! Think that was. Kinda SORTA before the time of being like no, I'm going to be smart and not involved in murder. Yeah, the key witness to the trial. Was Manson family member Linda. Carr's Avian, who had been present in the car at both murders, which you said so she provided graphic testimony of the murders before going into hiding for the next forty years. Obviously you know the state of California presented a lot of evidence, but she was the key like they had plenty of witnesses, but she was the main one that she was like physically there. Yeah, and I mean she was part of the Manson family so I mean I. Guess You would have reason to lie, but she's clearly lying in the wrong direction if that's what she's doing. Yeah, so during the trial in August. Nineteen Seventy Manson held a newspaper headline that said that President Richard. Nixon believed that Manson was guilty of the murders either directly or indirectly. which led to defense moving for a mistrial, arguing that their clients had allegedly killed fewer people than Nixon's war machine Vietnam. So, of course, the judge obviously asked the jurors. If they would be able to proceed with the current with the information they have, but would they. Would they be able to continue without that coloring their judgment and they said yes. So that that failed. On October Fifth Seventeen Manson attempted to kill the presiding judge judge older himself by him by leaping over his lawyers table with a sharpened pencil and heading straight for the judge. How is that going to help your case? As he was led out of the courtroom. In the name of Christian justice somewhat should cut your head off. L., yeah, so I'm I'm honestly not sure where that outburst came from. Yeah, but that's that's the thing he. At some point. He shaved his head and claimed he was the double. Okay, because the devil is often portrayed as having a ballpit in Horny said I think he made his beard kind of. I don't know something like that I know. There was horns cider sharpened. Dialing of his hair. So obviously, everybody expected the the girls to shave their heads. The next day. They didn't on purpose knowing that people would think that that would play into the fact that he's still putting them yet. They eventually did shave their heads though. So by the end of everything, everybody's got a shaved head kill. The State of California rested its case on November Sixteenth Nineteen Seventy after presenting twenty two weeks worth of evidence, the defendant simply rested their case without ever presenting witnesses of their own to which the three female defendants shouted that they wanted to testify, but we're denied. Will Not Outright in court I believe. The attorneys had already talked to the judge beforehand. That they were probably going to do that and don't let it happen. Yeah, so they were denied, but the next day Manson himself also requested to testify and was allowed to do so, but without the presence of the jury. Why I couldn't say but. His testimony was as follows are quote these children that come at you knives? They are your children. You taught them I didn't teach them. I try to help them. Stand up most of the people at the ranch that you call. The family were just people that you did not want I know this that in your hearts and souls, you are as much responsible for the Vietnam war as I am for killing these people I can't judge any of you. You I have no malice against you and no ribbons for you, but I think that it is high time that you all start looking at yourselves and judging the live you live in my father is the jailhouse. My father is your system. I am only what you made me. I am only a reflection of you. You WanNa kill me I am already dead. have been all my life. I've spent twenty three years in tombs. You have built and put. He was asked after that if he wanted to give his testimony again with the jury president, and he said no I think my point thirty been made. So he was given the option and it's like I said my piece to the people I wanted to say to yeah, so on January. Twenty fifth seventy-one, the jury found Manson Krenwinkel Atkins guilty of first degree murder on all seven of the tate labianca murders. Than Helton was found guilty of first degree murder in the lobby, Arthur murders. A separate hearing was held in front of the same jury to determine that defendants should receive the death penalty. The female defendants each provided graphic details of the murders, and claimed that Manson had nothing to do with them, but that they were following the direction of key witness Linda Custodian. The women claimed that they were supposed to make. The murderers look copycat murders or crimes similar to the Gary Hinman, killing in order to free fellow family member Bobsleigh. was being held for the murder. They also expressed no remorse whatsoever for their crimes. In any video I saw. That was kind of like. You know around the murderers. earn murders, my God the trial. The girls were skipping and singing and smiling. Let's. Busy, yeah, they literally looked like they were on their way to a picnic. Person Yeah. We're seeing some pictures of the girls and were like smiling. They're like in their jail, outfits and stuffing yeah. They think they look adorable and their dresses. I mean they were. They were such good looking girls, and they just ended up in this league. Just Yeah Toilet Bowl of Manson. Thing. So I know that up to this point. I haven't really said anything about our lovely friend Tex Watson Yeah. We'll happen with him. He had to be extradited from where he wasn't Texas of all places. I mean capsules in his name Nick No. Yeah. He was the last one of all of the to be eventually convicted of the murders He received the outcome of being guilty of all the murders plus conspiracy to commit murder with Manson okay so on March twenty ninth nineteen, seventy-one, the original four defendants were sentenced to death. Texts I don't remember when he got his, but he was also sentenced to death at the outcome of his trial. At this time, the trial had been the most publicized, American Criminal Case of the twentieth century, and was the longest murder trial in American history at nine and a half months, and this was at the time whether or not, that's still true I. Don't know yeah, in Nineteen seventy-two California's death sentences were ruled unconstitutional. Any prisoners at the time with the sentence could petition to have the sentence modified to life, imprisonment or life imprisonment without parole so outside of the prison seen Monette squeaky from had continued to try and keep the Manson family together and keep the legacy alive, but was failing You know. Manson's not there anymore. Yeah, like you don't have the influence of Manson. WHO's GonNa? Follow you. You're not as charismatic. You're not counting like wigs. He's in prison for life for all. They know so they're going to really do like that is gone. It's like so I'm following you yeah, so she'd been writing letters to the girls inside and. Obviously as years passed, those girls were becoming disillusioned with Manson's teachings. Everything in a remember somebody stating in an interview that at one point, one of the girls ask squeaky what she had done for Manson lately while they were rotting away prison for him so they went to prison for him. What are you doing? Yeah, so squeaky decided it was time to show her devotion, and on September Fifth Nineteen, seventy five. She strapped a forty five caliber. Semiautomatic pistol tore leg. Set out to attempt to assassinate President Gerald Ford Okay Yup. She was quickly wrestled to the ground and secret service found that there was no round in the firing chamber, so of course she claimed that she never intended to shoot him. Okay so again. I think that Kinda plays into like maybe she never really did think she could. Yeah but she did end up serving prison time because of that. Yeah, so well in an interview with Diane, Sawyer in Nineteen Ninety three. She asked Manson whether or not he'd been shocked when his followers returned after the murders and he responded quote Ardo. Put it this way. Would you do me a favor when you leave talk to the lieutenant and ask him if he's shocked by what goes on in here every day I? See Blood in here every day every day. Someone's getting shot. Someone's getting cut. Someone's getting beat. I've lived in that all my life woman that don't wriggle up my forehead. You could pile a hundred bodies in front of my cell and that. Don't set me to do nothing laugh. Yeah, so. nope the mummy. On January first two thousand seventeen. Manson was reported to have been suffering from gastro intestinal bleeding, and was rushed to Mercy Hospital in Bakersfield but was deemed too weak for surgery. Returned to prison five days later on November nineteenth that same year Charles, Manson, died from cardiac arrest, resulting from respiratory failure and colon cancer, so has of three years ago. Almost yeah, Dear Charlie Manson passed away, didn't he have lake women who wanted to marry him and stuff while he was in prison. Oh, yeah, there was a girl who thinks twenty six and they actually went so far as to get the marriage license. But when he found out that essentially all she wanted was his body after he died. The he was of course heartbroken. Okay and let the marriage license expire. I actually did also read somewhere that he was like one of the most written to inmates of all time like receiving sixty thousand letters shame. In the time that he was in there. Yeah, well, I think he even attempted to put out an album. From prison. He was caught with a cellphone patty. Then I I don't know how they get these things. How do you know how to use a cell phone? Yeah while put in jail in the seventies right? Yeah, but I would assume he's probably been around people that showed us. It is different from a phone. I think it's I think if you put an iphone in front of somebody who's used to said it was an iphone foot phone. Nokia book doesn't seem as a Damn hand-held just with the screen. It might have been. What are those bricks? I don't know I. Don't remember the year that happened. Oh right I'm. Yeah I was thinking like to thousands and I'm like if you handed somebody like a smartphone or even like a little, Nokia brick phone in there. You still like the phones that they had in Seventies. Have, would you? How would you know how to record music, too? I don't know how he accomplished that I. Know that five copies were pressed. and. Two of them are with whoever he was collaborated curve, corresponding with outside and three are believed to have been with him, and it was obviously never published. So This man lead on interesting. Yeah from start to finish, don't joke so I. Just have a few little pop culture references because this episode is really long. But I. Just kind of wanted to mention some ones that have found that were interesting so obviously like the most recent one is once upon a time in Hollywood the Quentin Tarantino Film. That's still really wanna see that it's a good movie. I really enjoyed it, and after researching like, Sharon tate in the murders and stuff I really appreciated kind of what Tarantino did with with it obviously spoiler, but. Flagrant here's what I really liked in the movie was. Sharon Tate didn't die. Interesting. It was kind of like a take on how her life could have been if she wasn't murdered. Interesting and I thought what was really interesting was so Leonardo DiCaprio's character and Brad Pitt's character obviously were fictional, but they were based off of people from old Hollywood. And, they were actually the neighbors of Sharon tate in Roman Polanski in the movie hooker and the Manson family ended up at Brad Pitt House instead of Sharon Tate's house, and it was like a really cool scene at the end Brad. Pitt has his pit bull, and he like six them on the family members. Brad Paisley beat the shit out of them and. Yeah. It was like fucking us as we're like a really cool like NC typical Tarantino, style of cuisine and Brad, Pitt was just like so fucking awesome, and like the family members were just like beat to shit right. Pretty. Sure all of them ended up dying, but like live on. There's like police in paramedics and stuff, and then Sharon. Tate played by Margot Robbie comes out, and she's like Oh Gosh, what happened? And then she was like, do you WanNa come inside for a drink and so invites Brad pay into the House with C.. Bring in like all her other friends and stuff. So one thing that I thought was really cool in terms of Tarantino's take on the whole Manson thing. He. Actually invited sharing tate's sister Deborah to come watch. Margot Robbie film scene as Sharon Tate. And it was a scene in the movie. When Margot Robbie, sharing date goes movie theater and she asks like the box office. How much for movie ticket? And they tell her and she's like how much if I'm in the movie. And and they're like you're in this movie, and she's like yeah. I played the KLUTZ. So like they take a picture with her, and they're like Oh. My God this lady was in the movie, and then they let her in, and she'd like watching herself on screen, and she just kind of like enjoys hearing the people around her laughing at her parts. So it's like so many listening to our guests and we laughing jokes. So I am funny. I we turn on external validation yeah. And so, what was really cool was Debra said when she saw margo filming the scene. She started crying because she felt like for the first time in fifty years. She saw her sister again. She said that Margot played Sharon so accurately just like the cadence of voice, the bubbliness of personality like she said Margot, did it really well, and she just really loved. How was portrayed in the movie oh? That's awesome. Yeah, I really liked that and on top of that movie's really good. Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio awesome. To Watch that when I get my hands on it, somehow I do I do recommend so some other random culture. Marilyn Manson took his name from Charles. Manson is a combination of Marilyn Monroe and Charles Manson, and he put the name together as Marilyn Manson. Because he thought it was a good balance between the female and male kind of powerhouses of the sixties and stuff right so I'm like. There's actually even South Park Christmas. Episode Oh Wow. Called Merry Christmas Charlie Manson. God in which stands uncle breaks out of prison, and brings his cellmate Charles Manson to Christmas dinner. Guns and roses did a cover of Manson songs. They're kind of like on untitled albums, and then in two thousand nineteen. There is a very inappropriate horror movie starring Hilary Duff, and it essentially made a movie based off of how sharing tate died. Oh! Such an insensitive thing and came out last year Oh. That's even worse yeah the anniversary of the deaths Oh. And yet N Deborah. When she. When she was asked about it, she was just I. Don't WanNa talk about that movie. Because it was such a not yet, it was like someone appropriate in your Fairly has nineteen percent rotten tomatoes. Surprising I'm just letting you guys know if you WanNa wash movie, don't. Let's not like some of the candy, but if they wanted to, that is true. Don't. Don't lose. It tells you. And, then one last little tidbit, it was featured in the cult series of American. Horror Story Oh yeah, then there's a whole list more movies books. TV shows just this guy just like. wiggled his way into pop culture even now. which a lot of a lot of people kind of commented on even back then like it just seemed like everything he was doing. He was trying to stay in the public eye. Yeah, everything he did it. Make sense trying to remain somehow relevant in someway. Also semi tangentially related. Sometime later the that was on Manson's forehead. He turned it into a permanent swastika. Why and he said the mark on my head simulates the dead head, black stamp of rejection, anti-church, falling cross double sign, death terror fear. Sure all right. I'm just wanted to make a statement. I, mean literally everything he did. Though yeah, so that's her really long episodes on Charles Manson. Yeah, sorry about that. There was no logical way to split this up. Hopefully, you're still here. You know you saved it for later. Yeah, and you learn something young. We always hope to teach you something yes. If you liked your tour today. Go ahead and leave us a review on wherever you book your tour today. You can visit our website at nope. Ville PODCAST DOT COM. You can contact us and this an email submit your campfire stories to us goes directly to our email. Yeah, which if you don't WanNa do that? You can email us at note. Ville podcasts at Humil- dot, com. Straight the source straight to the source. If you did want to submit your campfire stories that way just make sure to put in the subject line that says campfire, stories, or listener, stories or something to that effect, so we know what you're e mailing about, and then you can contact us on our social media or follow us on our social media. We have instagram twitter facebook twitter is note. Fill cast instagram now for podcast and on. FACEBOOK NORTHVILLE podcast. Ask. Just about. Everything hopefully you'll find us. Just Google. You'll find us. We Guarantee. There's no other one. We've looked yeah, also on our website, you can get access to our show notes anything that we referenced in our research photos. Anything like that you on our website, yeah! All right so thanks for joining us on our Charles Manson tour today and we will see you next week. Excellent I seen most of you returned and relatively unscathed Bravo. I hope you enjoyed your visit to know bill and look forward to see you again next time.

Charles Manson Sharon Sharon Tate Roman Polanski Dick Yeah Mike Yeah Sharon tate Los Angeles Abigail Abigail Smile Linda Ca Sabin Susan Atkins California Charlie murder Jay Beatles Terry Melcher London producer
Summer of 69: The Passion Behind The Family Pt. 1

Parcast Presents: Summer of '69

51:02 min | 1 year ago

Summer of 69: The Passion Behind The Family Pt. 1

"Due to the graphic nature of this families crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder sexual assault drug use and violence that some people may find offensive. We we advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen most days Tex Watson didn't have a care in the world he had Charlie to tell him what to do and Charlie knew everything everything so texts never had to worry about whether he was making the right choice or of a wrong one techs also had access to a steady stream of marijuana and l._S._d.. Charlie encouraged it which meant that the drugs or good but tex had curiosities about heavier things too so and it was offered by Charlie he readily swallowed a chunk of Bella Donna route but the trip didn't relax him or open his mind mind instead he felt unhinged filled with panic paranoia and anger all of his senses seem distorted. He couldn't be sure of what he was seeing or feeling. It was the middle of the day darkness enveloped him. It was as if a malevolent evil was trying to warm its way into his body techs. Let the evil in there was nothing he could do to resist it. He began to lose consciousness. He could only hope that when he woke up he would feel normal again but it was a dim. Hope Tech suspected that he had changed himself. Irrevocably the evil was part of him. Now Hi I'm Lena Hobbs and this is crimes of passion apar- cast past original the legal definition of a crime of passion is a violent crime that occurs in the throes of extreme emotion leaving no time to reflect on the consequences but in this show we explore passionate crimes how does a marriage progress from husband and wife to killer and victim or killer and Co conspirator if there's a thin line between love and hate what manipulates our relationships and a deadly results and this episode will explore how Charles Created the group known as the Manson family how they began as a strange but seemingly benign group of outcasts and how they transformed into a ruthless band of criminals next week we'll discuss the infamous murders the group carried out the police investigations and the trials that followed their crime spree. This episode is art of Park has summer of sixty nine event July twenty the second through August ninth. All your favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history. The summer of Nineteen sixty-nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing ending where diving deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different are cast originals. We'll be digging into the fallout of M._l._K.'s assassination a wide eight reaching l._S._d.. Colt and rumors of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more all in our new parkas presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. We are grateful eightfold for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing. Reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at Park has network several of you have asked how to help us. If you enjoy today's episode assode the best way to help us to leave a five star review where ever you're listening it really does help few names in history carry the as much notoriety as Charles Manson's when he died in two thousand seventeen after spending nearly fifty years in prison news of his passing made international headlines from what we know about Manson. That's that's exactly what he would have wanted from the time he was a young man. Charles Manson creeped fame and attention initially he believed his celebrity would come from being the world's biggest rockstar Baker than his idols. The the Beatles instead he was notorious for orchestrating some of the most heinous murders in American history but it wasn't just his crimes that drew infamy it was his ability to attract a loyal cult of followers. I who were so devoted they were willing to kill for him. Charles Mills Manson born in November of nineteen thirty four was without a family for most of his life in many ways. The creation of his cult following was determined many years before he found his way to Haight Ashbury his mother fifteen-year-old Kathleen Maddox was never married to Charles is biological father any me subsequent relationships didn't last for long Charles was shuttled between his grandmother and his aunt as Kathleen tried to find her footing. When Charles was only five Kathleen was sent to prison for stealing a car and and he was into live with family and McMechan West Virginia his aunt and Uncle Glenna and Bill Thomas Remember Charles is three year? Stay as a difficult time for their family. Charles was impervious to punishment his uncle. Go Bill said that he acted however he wanted and no threat of a whipping could make him behave before I continue with Charles's psychology please note that I am not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but they have done a lot of research for this show the thomases memories of Charles reveal a pattern of antisocial behavior often used to diagnose conduct disorders in children. The diagnostic and statistical manual of of mental disorders notes that problem behaviors may start as young as the age of three these children often show defiance towards adults blame others for things that have gone wrong and provoke others Charles displayed did all of these tendencies during his time in McMechan. Perhaps most frightening was Charles's obsession with knives. His cousin Joanne recalled a terrifying instance when she was left in charge of seven year old Charles Dell's he was pestering Joanne as she cleaned the house so she sent him outside moments later she looked up to see Charles standing on the other side of the screen door wielding a sickle he'd found in the yard slashing being at the screen. His expression was so deranged Joanne thought he might have killed her if our parents had an returned just then to stop him when Charles's mother Kathleen was paroled in nineteen forty two the thomases were glad to return seven year old Charles tour but his defiant behavior continued Charles skip school shoplifted and lied about it he was never ashamed and never repented for his bad behavior the D._S._M.. Five noted that between the ages of Seven and eleven antisocial behaviors intensify in children with conduct disorders at this age the children are more prone to lying stealing Lang and rule-breaking as they gain more independence from their caretakers. Kathleen hoped a firmer hand might straighten Charles out so in nineteen forty seven when Charles was twelve Kathleen sent him to the Jew Ball School. Oh for boys a boarding school for male delinquent and Terre Haute Indiana he ran away from Jabal the next year in nineteen forty eight within weeks he was caught burglarizing stores in Indianapolis the Annapolis and was sent to a juvenile facility in Omaha Nebraska. It started a pattern of incarceration escape and reincarceration throughout nineteen forty seven and nineteen fifty. Four Charles was placed Austin and escaped from a reform school in Indiana the National Training School for boys in Washington D._C.. And finally a maximum security prison in chillicothe the Ohio he was always recaptured as a result of escalating criminal behavior such as stealing cars and armed robbery Charles fits the textbook pattern of antisocial behaviors typical of childhood conduct disorders the D._S._M. Five states that adolescents are likely to intensify their rule breaking through truancy running away assault robbery vandalism and stealing cars medical professionals note that a high proportion of children and Young People <unk> with conduct disorders grow up to be antisocial adults Charles was by no means reformed but he managed to get his worst impulses under control at chillicothe -I he was released in the spring of Nineteen fifty four at the age of nineteen. Surprisingly he returned to McMechan West Virginia to live with his aunt uncle and grandmother his mother Kathleen had remarried and Charles didn't like her new husband and his grandmother's request Charles regularly attended church he wasn't a believer but he enjoyed several Bible passages especially in the book of revelation and he committed many to memory but his time outside of institutions was short lived in nineteen fifty five Charles Stole a car and drove to Las Angeles to see Kathleen he was promptly arrested by police officer who suspicions were raised by the out out of state license plate in April of Nineteen fifty six Charles was sentenced to serve three years at San Pedro's Terminal Island Penitentiary in Los Angeles Harbor in Prison Charles encountered all types of lawbreakers but he seemed most enamored with the pimps he was enthralled by their stories of seducing young vulnerable women and turning them into obedience sex workers they explain how to pick out women with low self esteem separate them from friends and family and finally alternate between showing the women affection and violence this combination of love and fear where powerful tools to exercise control over their victims Charles like the idea of exerting control over people. This may be why he enrolled in a prison course based on Dale Carnegie's Bestselling Book How to win friends and influence people Charles had never shown shown any aptitude for education before but he excelled in a class that affirmed his instincts for manipulation the most important lesson he gleaned from the course was held a make someone do what you wanted. The trick was to make them think it was their own idea. The research of cognitive psychologist Elizabeth Loftus suggested that it is relatively easy to implant an idea and another person's mind simply asking leading questions can shape another person's response and even create false memories of events Charles was thrilled to learn how susceptible the human mind was to outside influence and how easily he could exploit that twenty three year old Charles was released in September of Nineteen fifty eight with few job prospects. He decided to become a pimp he seduced nineteen year old Leona Ray Musser with the aim of convincing her to enter sex work art Leona eager to please win along with it until his probation officer caught on Charles was soon back in federal court facing charges but he had Leona by his side. We own a had never met anyone like Charlie. When he spoke to her he acted as if she were the only thing that mattered and told her that she was the prettiest girl he'd ever seen? He trusted her and he needed her to look out opt for him just like he did for her. How could she not love someone who meet her feel so special and desirable she would do anything for Charlie? Now was her chance to prove it. She thought about what she was going to say to the judge if she could strike the right tone and get the judge on her side she would keep Charlie out of prison and they could stay together and be happy. The courtroom was quiet and everyone was watching her the lawyers the parole officers and Charlie Leona let out a quavering cy and began to talk about how she and Charlie were in love and how they were going to get married and then she told the judge that she was pregnant with Charlie's baby. It was a lie but she didn't feel guilty. She was only helping Charlie as she wrapped up her speech Leona. Let here's fall from her. is she began to SOB. Charlie said that if she made herself look helpless the judge would take Pity Charlie was right Leonis plaintiff's speech before the court work and the Judge Place Charles on probation rather than sending him back to prison but Charles continued forging checks and pimping out Leona in June of nineteen sixty twenty six year old Charles was sentenced to another another ten years in prison during this stint he discovered scientology. He may have been drawn to the way the scientology leaders convince converts to surrender individuality and completely give into the ideology with the explosive arrival of the Beatles in nineteen sixty four Charles also became obsessed with music. He was fascinated by beatle mania more than anything King Charles wanted a legion of admirers to love him as much as the Beatles he had always loved listening to the radio as a child. It had an ear for punking out songs on his aunts piano. He convinced his mother to has sent him. A guitar took music lessons from fellow inmates and performed in prison variety shows other inmates gave lackluster praise calling him a decent singer capable of playing a few chords but Charles was convinced minced he was a genius prison staff encouraged his devotion to music as a distracted him from causing trouble on March twenty first nineteen sixty seven thirty two year old Charles Manson was released early from prison but he felt aimless without the constant supervision he'd grown accustomed to after twenty years in and out of various institutions while he mold over his future. He asked his parole officer her for permission to leave Los Angeles he wandered north to Berkeley California in the nineteen sixties. College campuses were exploding in protests against the war racial inequality and social injustice U._C.. Berkeley was at the center of radical protests after nineteen sixty four when students staged free speech demonstration that resulted in nearly eight hundred arrests and attracted the scorn of California Governor Ronald Reagan again at the same time the Haight Ashbury neighborhood in San Francisco was the epicenter of the counterculture movement a place where hippies experimented with drugs free love and communal life both the. Revolutionaries of Berkeley and the Flower Children of San Francisco received national attention young people everywhere were drawn to the unconventional lifestyle they'd seen on the news or read about in magazines by nineteen sixty seven the bay area was packed with Gurus fractures and revolutionaries and there was no shortage of impressionable young people ready to fall under the influence of an inspiring leader and so when Charles Manson arrived having trained under pimps and scientologists alike is future followers where ripe for the picking. We'll see how Charles collected his first family remembers after this either if you enjoy this episode on the Manson Family Search crimes of passion on spotify and give us a follow to find more episodes now back back to the story when thirty two year old Charles Manson arrived in San Francisco in nineteen sixty seven the summer of love was in full swing. Everyone who migrated to the city had come with one purpose to learn how to think in a new way Charles was happy to educate them twenty-three-year-old Mary. Brunner was like thousands of other young people who flocked to California for a chance at an exciting new life she worked in the U._C.. Berkeley Library and met Charles while he was hanging out around campus playing guitar. Mary had only recently moved to Berkeley from Wisconsin and she hadn't yet made any friends upon their first smeeting. Charles teased her trying to get a rise out of her. Her temper flared until she realized he was purposely trying to goad her then she laughed and dropped her guard Charles coaxed his way into her home and essentially became her freeloading houseguests very relationship wasn't immediately sexual but Charles would sometimes bring other women back to her apartment to sleep with them eventually they she became jealous of the other women in order to compete for Charles's affections. Mary began to sleep with him to Charles was happy to take Mary to bed though he didn't stop collecting other women like eighteen year world Lynette foamy linnet had a troubled history of drug abuse and self harm. She ran away from home after an argument with her father. Charles was naturally drawn to vulnerable people he could manipulate women who were desperate desperate to be loved when Charles Sullen net crying on the boardwalk. He stopped and told her she looked like she needed a friend. He easily persuaded her to come back with him to Berkeley Charles now had his second follower. He didn't stop there. Charles picked up another woman Pat Krenwinkel after enticing her away from the home she shared with her drug addicted sister. Then he added twenty year old Susan Atkins whose his life had taken a rough turns and she lost her mother to cancer five years prior. The women were thrilled to be part of Charles's grew hat wrote a letter to her father stating that for the very first time in my life I've I found contentment and peace Mary Lynette hat and Susan all projected vulnerabilities that made them susceptible to Charles's influence. Nearly all of them had troubled relationships Russian ships with their families and Charles validated the anger they felt about their unhappy home lives telling them they were correct to rebel against their parents. Nearly all of them had self esteem issues and Charles told them that they were pretty and desirable. These were women searching for comfort and Charles gave it but their attraction to Charles wasn't just about their own weaknesses. It was also about his magnetism Tim he knew how to turn on the charm and his followers loved the way he showered them with compliments. Charles was also older than most of these women by a decade. He used his age as an advantage or training himself as an experience sage. It was extra flattering to these women that someone they perceived to be so wise was willing to pay attention to them. Charles Philosophies were not particularly original but he was so charismatic rasmatic when spouting out a jumble of ideas drawn from the Bible Scientology and Beatles lyrics that people couldn't help listen he spoke with the confidence and authority that discouraged anyone from questioning him Charles also had the self awareness to hide some of his negative attributes for example. He was vehemently racist but he did not reveal the extent of his racism to the women in his group as far mistake. Tell Charles's way of life was all about feeling good letting go of inhibitions and purging bad feelings Charles told the women in his thrall that no matter what may have happened to them before they were special beautiful and blameless innocence. They loved hearing this and they loved him still win. Charles lost his temper he became violent when he wasn't pleased with the women he might punch them or pull their hair but like many abusers he always knew how to sweet talk them into forgiveness a classic perpetuation of the cycle of abuse this was only the heightened by their isolation from other relationships and their dependence on him in the study from Translational Psychiatry Journal Antisocial personality disorder is found in forty to seventy percent of prison populations in Cortex studies review psychologist. John Burke notes that many Colt leaders at the diagnostic criteria for antisocial personality disorder. Two of the most recognizable traits of the disorder are the desire to control others others in a tendency towards crash in a cult leader revealed these treats by demanding loyalty from followers and by doling out physical punishments to transgressors in the same article Burke described evidence of dependent didn't personality disorder among followers. These individuals are more likely to exhibit depression anxiety and feelings of powerlessness that makes them all the more likely to fall under the spell of an authority figure these these dynamics were certainly found within Charles Manson's burgeoning colts in late nineteen sixty seven bolstered by his flock of admirers Charles decided it was time to pursue his larger ambition of becoming a Rockstar Dr. Mary Brunner gave up her apartment in the bay area and the group decided to move to Los Angeles. Charles packed his followers into a V._W.. Minibus and set out to become famous in Los Angeles. The group stayed in a home known as the spiral staircase the owner of the house enjoyed being surrounded by interesting transients and he allowed many artists and eccentrics aboard their here. The group continued to to expand they met fourteen year old Diane Lake and lived in a nearby commune with her parents Diane Leader wrote that becoming part of the Manson's was like a raindrop joining puddle. I blended in easily. We my loneliness disappearing Charles used his existing followers to draw in more people were more willing to listen to his ideas. When they saw the he was already surrounded by an enraptured crowd the group group swelled to around twenty members mostly women and a few men they increase their numbers and other ways to Mary? Brunner got pregnant and in April of nineteen sixty eight gave birth to a son Valentine. Valentine Michael Manson Susan Atkins also became pregnant she would give birth and the fall of that year during the same period the country royal with discord Vietnam. Tom were protests dominated. The News President Lyndon Johnson announced that he would not seek reelection be assassination of Dr Martin Luther King Junior triggered riots and over one hundred cities but no matter matter what was happening around him Charles Manson remain myopically fixated on his own destiny his plans got an injection of energy when two of his followers met Beach Boys Drummer Dennis Wilson in Hollywood Wilson invited the young women to his house for milk and cookies and they spent an innocuous afternoon together after their snap Wilson excused himself to go to a recording session and the women left but Charles. I was thrilled when he heard about the encounter he demanded the women's show him the way back to Wilson's house. When Wilson returned he found Charles and his flock harding in his house Wilson was not one to turn down a good time so he let them stay over the next few days Wilson let Charles philosophize to him and found some of his ideas profound mike the Women Charles collected Dennis Wilson struggled struggled with feelings of emptiness and loneliness he had previously sought meaning and transcendental meditation but he was open to anyone who might have some answers and Charles was an expert at convincing people all he had wisdom to share for Charles's followers Wilson welcoming them into his home was just another example of their leaders? Magic Charles told them that he could make good things happen just by envisioning them he wanted a music career and a famous musician came into his life in reality he was just manipulating easy targets like Wilson into giving him the things he wanted but Charles is disciples. It really really seem like he was conjuring. Good fortune out of nothing they saw almost godlike power and it only made them clean Charles Moore that's summer Wilson introduced Charles to some of his industry contacts talent silence Gout Greg Jacobsen and producer Terry Melcher Charles trying to get in their good graces by encouraging them to sleep with their pick of his followers. None of the women objected as if they had much of a choice ace one of Charles's rules probably borrowed from the pence was that each woman had to let go of all her inhibitions and have sex with whomever Charles told her to if she couldn't do that he wasn't interested in keeping her around. If any of the women ever wavered Charles used other him tactics he'd guilt them into obeying questioning whether they really loved him while also instilling fear ear with the threat of a slap or beating Charles's manipulation tactics worked on both ends Wilson and his frequent visitors Greg Jacobsen and Terry Melcher were enticed by the offer of unlimited rule rule free sex and for the next few weeks the family became Wilson Semi Permanent Guests Jacobson even flirted with the idea of making a documentary film about the group while riding up a film proposal Eve referred to the group as the Family Charles like the label and the group adopted it Charles now had the attention of a wealthy benefactor and several music and film industry contacts but as the summer of nineteen sixty eight stretched on Charles still didn't have what he wanted a recording contract melcher seemed to have the most clout in this area so Charles kept trying to get closer to him he knew Melcher true lived in a secluded house on yellow drive and he often tried to score an invitation. The melcher always resisted keeping him at arm's length Melcher found Charles off pudding. He wasn't the kind kind of person who searched for spiritual advice or metaphysical answers but the Gregarious Dennis Wilson introduced Charles to plenty of other less self-assured people who found Charles Captivating Wilson like to invite all kinds of people to come hang out at his house even strangers he barely knew twenty one year old Charles Watson was one of these guests Watson was thrilled to be welcomed into the home of a famous musician like Dennis yes Wilson but he was even more impressed by Charles Manson and his Legion of Obedient women. The family accepted the young man into their cohort and gave him the nickname tex by the end of the summer. Wilson Wilson was tired of financially supporting the family. When the lease on his house ended he moved out and the family had to find new lodgings but family members sandy good had another suggestion for where they could stay? She had a friend who lived on a ranch in seamy valley. The property had once been used as a set and TV westerns but it was falling into disrepair. Charles convinced the ranch owner Charles Spawn to let his group moved there in in exchange for helping the old man with cleaning taking care of horses and whatever upkeep the property required and at the sprawling ranch the family continued to grow that Fall Charles came up with new strict strict rules to keep them in line for example he forbade the women from carrying money he didn't allow them to read books and he banned watches clocks and calendars but his followers were willing to put up with the rigid policies because the family gave them unconditional love and acceptance that they could never find the harsh outside world and if they didn't follow Charles's rules they'd be kicked out of the family ripped away from that supports system daily use of drugs like L._S._d.. Also help keep them docile. David Smith was a physician and addiction expert who founded the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic in northern California in the nineteen sixties Smith met Charles Manson and his followers in nineteen sixty seven while they were in the bay area two years later Smith studied the family at Spahn ranch and he even wrote a paper on the group in the Journal of Psychedelic drugs hugs prior to the families murder spree in recent years reflecting on the Manson family. Smith has written that we now know that drug infused mind control is a very real phenomenon amongst -ceptable youths Charles needed to use every tool he had to keep the groups focus and loyalty by the end of nineteen sixty eight he began to see ominous signs all around him. His followers noticed a change in him it it had always been a regular ritual Charles to preach to them through lectures or songs but that winter is daily sermons became less about love and more about the violent downfall of civilization now many of his lectures involved a coming race war and which black people would rise up and kill the white population according to Charles it was black people's turned to be in power after years of oppression Russian with these visions of violence Charles instill fear in his followers encouraging them to withdraw further from society and closer to him. The family had already found isolation at Spahn on ranch thirty five miles from downtown Los Angeles but Charles wanted to retreat even further away from civilization. One of the family members mentioned a place her grandparents owned and Death Valley called the Barker ranch. Charles thought this sounded like the perfect place to hide out during the coming Apocalypse Diane Lee was afraid she had joined the family at the age of fourteen because she wanted to be treated needed as an adult but to her that meant becoming Charlie's lover not as warrior still according to Charlie let shed was inevitable and they had to prepare for it. Don didn't know what to make of this latest rantings about race wars and uprisings. They were terrifying to be sure but Diane was certain that Charlie could protect them from whatever lay ahead what frightened her Moore was was that Charlie was acting differently. Just a few months earlier he'd been affectionate and playful. He showed love to all the women but Diana had believed he loved her best now. She no longer felt like a favorite favorite Charlie had withdrawn when she tried to bring out that warm side of Charlie he looked at her with contempt that more and more often erupted into violence and beatings only one thing seemed to improve Charlie's mood the thought of fleeing to the Desert Diane hope the change of scenery would fix things after all if it was what Charlie wanted it must be the right move. The whole family tracked out to Death Valley in October of nineteen sixty eight to scope out the property Charles got permission from the ranch owner to stay there but he soon realized that the group wasn't prepared for settlement they needed to stockpile food drugs knives and guns in order to make the ranch a suitable fortress Charles left a few members at the Barker ranch to keep watch while the rest of the family returned to Spahn ranch in Simi Valley over the next few months they started collecting whatever weapons they could get their hands on they stole Dune buggies and motorcycles from car lots and made alterations on the vehicles adding extra armor Moore and welding on Scabbard to hold firearms throughout all these preparations music still dominated Charles Dots. If he had any misgivings about his chaotic visions of the future they were put to rest in November. We're of nineteen sixty eight. When the Beatles released their latest album featuring their song helter skelter Charles seem to think the music was speaking directly to him all of it confirmed his dark predictions of of annihilation coming up we'll talk about Charles's interpretation of the white album and his increasingly erratic man's to his followers now back to the story after his release from prison in the fall of nineteen sixty seven thirty two year old Charles Manson used his charismatic personality and his masterful ability to manipulate people to amass a loyal cult following dubbed the family but by the fall of nineteen sixty eight charnel seemed to be steadily losing whatever grip he had on reality as the group squatted at the spahn ranch in Simi Valley Charles lectured his disciples about out the apocalypse and the family made preparations for the coming race wars Charleston that the black population would rise up to kill or enslave the White Race Charles told his followers that he planned to take them into a desert where they would crawl into a hole and hide from the violence during that time he said black people would hold all the power materials a white supremacist didn't think black people would be capable all of ruling the world so he predicted once they realized they did not have the skills to lead the family could emerge from hiding and be recognized as the rightful rulers of the planet shared delusions are rare her but when a shared delusional disorder does occur it usually happens among people who live close together often in isolation and with an intimate emotional connection Dr Ernest Charlotte xay was the first to identify the phenomenon he labeled fully ado which translates to the madness shared by two and fully famille or the madness shared by the family doctor La- zag sent that the inducer juicer creates delusions and imposes them on a passive individual who was not necessarily psychotic themselves but who is overly trusting and naive the family accepted Charles Prophecy not not only because they deferred to his word on everything but Charles also seemed to have proof he pointed to the Beatles release of the white album in November of nineteen sixty eight Charles said the lyrics and song titles was confirmed everything he predicted about the future blackbird was about black people rising against oppression hickeys referred to the corrupt people in power who deserve the extermination coming to them? Helter alter skelter was the term for the chaotic events that would ignite the race or and signal the end of the world beyond searching for greater truths and prophecies and the white album Charles thought that the songs wchs gave him more immediate practical advice in the song I will Charles took the lyrics your song will fill the air sing it loud so I can hear you to mean that he should not give up on his goal of becoming coming. A musician Charles had kept up his relationship with music producer Terry Melcher as best he could Melcher wasn't interested and indulging Charles's musical ambitions but he enjoyed visiting the Women Ed Spahn ranch and he recognized that even if Charles talents as a musician were middling there was something compelling about him that might warrant closer look so in March of nineteen sixty nine nine Melcher agreed to come out to on ranch to hear Charles. Play Charles was fanatical in the days leading up to the visit he and the woman he chose as backup singers rehearsed endlessly he had them perform a strip show to accompany the music trolls usually taught his disciples not to care about clothes or personal appearances but before Melchior's arrival he instructed his followers to buy material and Hanso oh him a fringed buckskin suit the family cleaned the ranch the best they could normally the family scrounged up meals from the dumpsters of grocery stores taking home any misshapen produce or food past the sell by date they could find in the trash but for Melcher Charles had the women whip up fresh baked goods and treats the group eagerly anticipated Melchior's arrival but on the agreed upon date Melcher didn't inch show Charles was furious in addition to his antisocial behavior he often demonstrated traits of typical narcissism including a fear of losing face licensed counselor Susanne degs white stated that narcissist is not able to tolerate any kind of public humiliation. Their egos can't handle the prospect of failure for the next few weeks weeks. Charles pulled away from the rest of the group and went on walks alone in the wilderness he had taught his followers to believe he was infallible. He hated for them to see him stumble. If they started to doubt his ability to become <hes> a great musician the might begin to doubt everything and then they might leave him. Charles couldn't bear the thought in addition to Meltzer's blow a month later police. Police raided the spahn ranch. They'd been tipped off that the group was in possession of stolen vehicles. Some of the family members were arrested. The charges were dropped within days because police could improve who had committed the thefts Jeff's even so Charles was rattled by the thought of the law interfering with his family a few days after the raid family member Tex Watson had a powerful negative reaction to some Hallucinogenic Bella Donna route during this episode he wandered around Van Nuys sometimes crawling on his hands and knees and emitting high pitched beeps until police arrested him for public intoxication when he returned to Spahn ranch after his release be other members of the family noted that he seemed different the twenty one year old had been a friendly mellow addition to the group after his bad trip he he became snap ish and edgy some studies indicate that hallucinogens can cause long-term or even permanent personality changes however most people reported positive changes such as decreasing Zaidi but tex felt like the drugs made him paranoid and destructive after the succession of dark events the family was granted a new ray of hope Terry Melcher made another promise to come and see Charles perform on May Eighteenth Nineteen sixty-nine Melcher came to spahn Ranch Charles. Let on the best show he could military listened politely after it was over he gave Charles name a friend who recorded tribal music. He thought the friend Might Find Charles is music more interesting than he handed Charles Fifty dollars and left the audition was over. Uh It wasn't exactly a brush off but it wasn't a recording contract. Either Still Charles would not give his followers any reason to doubt his success to save face. He told them that the fifty dollars was a signing bonus rather than the act of charity it likely was but the rejection clearly stung and Charles's moods turn darker he began to contemplate how we might take revenge on Melchor. It was also around this time that Charles sent his followers on excursions. He called creepy crawling dressed in black. The family snuck into random house's late at night while the occupants slept there they would misplace items and rearrange the furniture. It was a power trip thinking about how the homeowners would wake up and realize the intrusion had taken place without them knowing Charles Charles did not direct the group to commit acts of violence during these creepy crawling missions but he did ask them to carry knives at all times. These missions were all part of the group's training he wanted them to overcome their fears of of getting caught and to learn to move around silently and without detection this would be important. He told them once helter skelter began they also started preparing to return to Barker ranch in death valley but Charles was still worried about food and weapon shortage. They needed to raise some fast cash. Tex Watson had a plan to do so he would pretend to be a drug dealer and arranged to sell twenty five kilos of marijuana to a perspective buyer tex didn't actually have the drugs but he had a buyer willing to give him the money up front tax figured he could get the money and then disappear before the buyer realized he'd been cheated but the buyer who went by the nickname lots of papa easily traced text back to the Spahn ranch and the family when lots of Papa called demanding his drugs Charles told him that he didn't know where tax was lots of Papa replied that he was a member of the Black Panthers and if he didn't get his drugs or his money back he and his comrades would come to the Spahn ranch and murder the family family lots of Papa wasn't actually a Black Panther but Charles believed the threat. He asked one of the male members of the Family Thomas T._J.. Wallman to accompany him to lots of poppas apartment. Charles grabbed a twenty two caliber revolver to take with them and gave T._J.. Specific instructions Charles would stuff the gun in the back of his pants and T._J.. Would enter the apartment behind him. When Charles gave the signal he expected T._J.? To grab the gun and shoot lots of Papa once they were in the apartment teaching locked eyes with Charlie. He knew that he was supposed to grab the gun but he couldn't didn't help hesitating. He thought lots of Papa would be alone instead. He had two guys with him T._J.. Like things to be simple and hear things were becoming complicated but Charlie wasn't phased by the extra men. He ignored them and nodded at T._J.. The signal for him to shoot T._J.'s hand twitched. He knew that when Charlie gave an order he had to obey that was the deal he'd signed up for when he joined the family he had surrendered his individual to the greater whole he truly believed that he was no longer his own person and that his body was under Charlie's control when Charlie wilt him to shoot T._J.. Expected is body to comply but to T._J.'s horror he didn't shoot. He froze when T._J.. Failed to shoot lots of Papa Napa Charlie grabbed the gun himself and shot the drug dealer in the chest. Lots of Papa elapsed as T._J.. And Charles fled they returned to spawn ranch where Charles bragged everyone that he just taken down a Black Panther. He explained that he had done it for their sakes to protect them. Meanwhile T._J.. was so terrified by his failure to obey Charles that he fled the ranch fearing for his life life. It was a signal to all of them. Charlie had shown them what it meant to be a member of the family if they wanted to remain part of the grew they had to be ready to kill in the coming weeks. Many of them would prove how ready they were to comply. Thanks again for tuning into our crimes of passion summer of sixty nine special. We will be back Wednesday with part two of the Manson family story. We'll discuss the infamous murders that took place on August eighth an night one thousand nine hundred sixty nine as well as the police investigations and trials that followed if you enjoyed this episode checkout park has continued retrospective into the summer of sixty nine from July twenty second through August ninth the summer of Sixty Nine will feature twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer be sure to check it out on our new podcast presents feet on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time when true love meets true crime crimes of passion was created by Max Color as a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast network.

Melcher Charles Charles Manson Charles Papa Napa Charlie Charles Moore Charles Mills Manson Tex Watson Charles Philosophies Charles Sullen Charles Dell Terry Melcher Charles spahn Ranch Charles Las Angeles Charles Fifty Charles Spawn Charles Captivating Wilson Charles Dots Charles Prophecy spotify Spahn ranch
The Summer Of Manson

Dateline NBC

41:45 min | 1 year ago

The Summer Of Manson

"The same relative charon take begged egged her. Please don't kill me. It was a new kind of crime. These were brutal. Crime scenes things that the police had never seen before the victim had died and they continued the staff grief like you could not imagine everybody in los angeles is petrified. Where are they going to strike straight nix. Aren't we all born to die. Charles manson stole lives charlie tells go in there do what you need me to do. He stole innocence dances. He sings and the straws a lot of people and he ended an era. He symbolizes the horror that can be possible possible in this world a look back at the life and death of charles manson. I know what i've done it. The remains are ruins. The ramshackle barker ranch long god only the fitful baking king death valley wind left now the stir the faded bits the rusted junk the artifacts of fifty years ago ago when this was ground zero for one of the most infamous crimes in history the hideout of the living personification of evil if got stuck in your brain that on murder somebody charles manson one hot dry weekend in los angeles august nineteen sixty nine pregnant movie star slaughtered along with four others in her home across town. A couple butchered in. There's these were brutal. Crime scenes things that the police had never seen before murder so bloody so ugly ugly they rewrote history became kind of bookmark as an era of optimism ended and a darker time began. The sixties came to a close nineteen sixty nine and that was the curtain that was the final who could make sense of dame even now. How do our kids end up doing this kind of incredibly violent crime. How did that happen tonight. We'll do our best to answer that question to get past the myths that have clouded out of the story of charles manson and with the help of those who witnessed finally explain the chaos the crimes the horror. It's a story that begins at a small mill town on the banks of the ohio river mcmechan west virginia where the myth manson spun had its beginning manson had told his own life story that he was a child nobody wanted his mother's is a career criminal and prostitute but madsen lied. This is jeff guinn author of mental. The man whose research revealed field the facts behind the miss manson was raised by a very loving family his uncle and aunt and his grandmother these were folks who were very religious and they of course wanted charlie to go to church which he hated but he had an amazing knack to memorize scripture. He was fascinated particularly with the book of revelation which he learned a quote at great length but he you did not learn to be good. He constantly stole he lied. He picked on people he was fascinated with knives and nothing nothing you would do to try to discipline him. More finally manson was sent to reform school eventually prison by thirty to it spent half his life locked up. He was immediately struck by the pimps from them. He learned how to control women men who were and this is his quote bent but not broken. That's an awesome became fascinated with a popular book by dale carnegie's mckay how to win friends and influence people. This is so strange to hear that he read dale carnegie not only read randall carnegie absorbed. That wasn't the only thing madison picked up in prison. Another inmate gave him guitar lessons and one day in in the prison workshop. A radio was blaring the top forty of nineteen sixty four. Here's a song by the beatles and so he sets a goal for himself of becoming even better than the beatles and he starts writing songs and performing in prison shows so by the time charlie manson awesome was released from prison on parole is fantasy was very strong would be signed to a contract would become world famous rich and have all the women in in drugs he wanted the fantasy and charles manson himself would almost certainly have remained anonymous a complete unknown had it not been for this san francisco's haight ashbury district where that very moment in nineteen sixty seven more than fifty years ago busloads of kids were arriving what they thought would be a new world of peace love. There'd be hundreds of people aw sitting on the sidewalk nego- grass acid speed roger smith was managed parole officer in san francisco and into that i've seen walk charlie manson he did he could somehow identify the ones who could be tricked coerced drawn in oh bent but not broken troubled. Young women like susan atkins. She left home as a teenager and drifted washed up in the hague. She worked as a topless dancer. Quit and then fell under man spell b nicknamed her sadie later there was leslie van houten who got into drugs ran away from home had an abortion and then met him people magazine's selena adidas has written about matt's he slept with all those girls right away making a connection with them and they felt this man gets me <music> he kept adding women his entourage and they went with him everywhere even to meet and third with his parole officer who heard firsthand firsthand manson's preaching to his flock oddball mix of free love social commentary and apocalyptic prophecies a lot of stop up pretty silly but even always frame his statements. This is what i believe in the girls all believed that the girls hung on every word he spoke seemed ready to do anything he asked like when he told them to have sex with men he wanted to win over when he told them he was destined to be bigger bigger than the beatles manson fully intended to become a rock and roll star and didn't think it was going to be very hard. The summer of love was over manson loaded his family. Now numbered about half a dozen onto a school bus took them to los angeles. He was still just a small time criminal with the dream but not for long beach boy and charles manson denison convinced that he could make charlie star manson strangehold on his family dances. He sings <hes> he looks beautiful. He looks happy. Happy and this draws a lot of people los angeles nineteen sixty sixty eight the center of the rock and roll universe here was capitol records. The beatles record company the sunset strip and here the producers who could make charles manson star. He positioned his family out here in the wooded haven alternative living called to panga canyon canyon. He lived on a place in panga canyon. It was burned out house. Eric carlson was living nearby in his first tv interview. You told us how he got to know mansion at his very available young women they would come over to get take showers and stuff and stuff does is he said he was called sexy sadie and not without cause <hes> exactly eric's the house or shower to offer my you the main occupant an owner of the house in which eric was living was a soft-spoken music teacher and gary hinman. There's just generous basically basically he never charged me any whatsoever when some of the manson women were busted for a spree of minor crimes charlie came over and asked gary if you could help them well he said well. What's the what's the bail of course gary hinman as he generously paid the bail at no idea <hes> how manson would return his favor match another family move depend get to a defunct western movie location called spahn ranch a few miles farther out manson told another of his followers lynette frahm who was nicknamed squeaky to keep the octogenarian happy so the family in exchange range for a few chores to live on the ranch for free manson dances he sings. He looks beautiful. He looks happy and this draws. A lot of people. Just like people are drawn line two little babies they scrounge for food and trash dumpsters said former family member barbara hoyt. It was fun you go behind the store. They used to throw away some good staff. Good vegetables. You'll find all kinds of treasures off there but the family didn't just live on scavenged vegetables they stole cash and credit cards and cars manson taught them a skill he called creepie crawling entering houses at night without waking the sleeping people inside at a used his women to advance his dream of becoming being famous sends them out into the parts of los angeles that are known as areas where the rock stars live to find some of them do what it takes wchs and get them to take charlie on as sort of their project that they will introduce him to the right people ridiculous of course but then the most extraordinary thing it worked. Dennis picked up a couple of girls on uncensored. Every hitchhiking dennis was dennis wilson of the beach boys at the time america's the answer to the beatles jacobsen was a music producer and friend data's wilson's. They went to his house. They had a good time and play music and all the things that did they redo. Manson system worked like a charm offering his young women as sexual favors to get what he wanted before the day they was out he and most of the family had moved right into dennis wilson's house dentist use to call me up and said great command down men were partying. All these girls are here charlie. You've gotta meet charlie. The wizard dentures convinced that he could make charlie star and so improbable is it seem dennis took manson to his brother brian studio that brian wilson to record some of his songs but when the other beach boys actually heard that he didn't have a very high opinion of the music or charlie the session fissile but the beach boys he's diplay one of manson's songs on the mike douglas t._v. Show but dennis rewrote the words and the title. Oh charlie was so angry that anybody anybody would dare to change the lyric change anything. He said it was like misquoting him so the beach boys were not the answer dimensions dreams but one more chance greg jacobsen knew a man in los angeles who could snap his fingers and get manson contract. His name was terry melcher one of l. A.'s top music producers and in the late spring of sixty nine not agreed to come to spahn ranch to hear manson sane charlie almost expected somebody to pull out contract in a pan and say here sign here you now have a contract with columbia records but there was to be no contract because later terry melcher politely but firmly rejected charlie manson charlie. It was really crushed. You would not be a rock and roll star. You would not be rich and famous. He was a failure which dimension men said his parole officer sir roger smith charlie was in serious danger of losing the family. He did something that you know. Politicians are masterful at and and that is he creates this this horrible thing era. There's going to be a race war. It was a time time of racial strife in america especially in l. A. and manson blended that information somehow with the book of revelation to prophesy armageddon a world ending race before he called helter skelter after one of the songs on the beatles white album his followers believed but what did he smith isn't so sure i think it was basically used to keep them focused and maybe even divert attention from the fact that he was not doing well <hes> terms of realizing his dream time to move. He told his family gather money cars. Get to the desert hazard to wait out the war between the races where again the manson story might have disappeared from history without a ripple or a trace a day in the life of the manson family every day he he would gather everyone together and dose them with l._s._d. And the killing begins beausoleil calls manson again. What are we gonna do. Manson says you. I know what you have to do. Charlie manson had come to los angeles with the plan to be bigger than the beaten by the summer of sixty nine. He knew that wasn't going to happen and that's when manson told his followers they had doing night something he called helter helter skelter an imminent world destroying race war which he named for reasons only he knew after a song on the beatles white album. They're gonna go on the desert. Stay there for one hundred fifty years while the black man takes over but then they're going to need him later and and that's when he's gonna come out as the master race and be the leader of everyone sounds ridiculous of course it is ridiculous but combination <music> of drugs being isolated. He had them all convinced that this was rail. He was serious about this. Yeah he believed it or so. He persuaded his followers. He told them he needed complete loyalty and complete control every day he would gather other everyone together and dostam with l._s._d. And he would talk for awhile that's when for his bent but not broken flock manson portrayed himself as the new cheeses but not a sweet and kindly version of jesus. Charlie was <hes> acting meaner gene or towards the girls. If they failed to follow his directions kitchen the head with a stick we went from good charlie badger he really got mean bean gene and desperate to find the money and cars to take his family to death valley where he told them they'd wait out helter skelter and who had money ian cars his music teacher friend gary hinman and charleena all of that eric carlson was with gary but manson called make demands he's telling gary it's time for him to join the family because this whole helter skelter was coming and that he needed to cash out all of his investments and go with the family and go out to the desert gary told manson no but the man who become used to getting what he unwanted persisted he says gary this is your last chance. If you don't do this i will not be responsible for the karma you will invoke upon yourself. Karma mets style then he said a friend of the family named bobby beausoleil along with loyal family member susan in atkins and mary brunner to shakedown gary bosa like beats him up him and keeps the meal any money on any money. Eventually beausoleil called manson manson comes down. He's wearing a sword that he's waving around. Charlie actually slices part of inman zero departs again manson's followers tortured gary hinman for three days until he finally signed over the pink slips for his cars but then he threatened to call the police mostly calls manson again. What are we gonna do. Manson says you know what you have to do. Both soleil stag gary hinman and then mary brunner and susan atkins finished with a a pillow over his face gary died because he didn't want to give up his money in the cars yes but he was equally important to become part up. What become a part of us or we'll kill you. The revolution is coming. A lot of people are going to die. Manson had a term for these people piggies another song from the white album if you want to be one of the piggies in today's pork is tomorrow's bacon so on manson's orders on the wall of gary's house they wrote the words political piggy and left it paw prints all the victim's blood hoping it would lead to police to suspect black panthers committed the murder the county the police come to investigate. It's a murder but they don't in any way link it to a black revolutionary execution misdirection. This direction failed in less than a week. Bobby beausoleil was pulled over driving one of gary henman's cars where police found a bloody knife and beausoleil called madison from jail the manning help and saying he hadn't ratted on him yet jeff when believes manson decided on on a plan to spring beausoleil and save his own skin family members at spahn ranch talking about what's happened to bobbi. Maybe he's in prison what's going to happen. How can we break him out. They did hatch a plan so horrible that the name charlie meant would be famous alright not as star but as a symbol of evil elder skelter a night of madness and murder sharon tate quite naturally screen. She's begging not to her life but for her baby's susan atkins and says bitch. I have no sympathy for you. August sixth nineteen sixty-nine bobby beausoleil was in jail accused of murdering during gary hinman. Charlie manson was afraid bobby mytalk implicate him in the family then an idea a crazy a horrible idea watching james cagney movie where he's in jail for these for these murders do these copycat murders to prove that he's not one. That's what charlie manson decided to commit murders so similar to what they did to hinman that the cops would have to think the real killers were still on the loose anisa. They saw that they'd release bobby beausoleil but the key to these copycat killings madsen decided was to find a high profile victim if if it's somebody famous and the newspapers and the t._v. or making a big deal out of it then it'll work they'll have to lead bobby abby out free bobby and maybe touch off helter skelter in the bargain by framing the black panthers august eighth nineteen sixty nine late. Susan atkins sexy sadie dressed in black and headed out of spawn ranch sadie hung out of the car window and yell. We're gonna kill some mother. Effing pigs also with the car tex watson patricia krenwinkel now linda abyan their target. Whoever lived the house recently vacated by terry melcher who months earlier at the likely blown off manson's hopes for a record deal whoever's living they're now has to be rich and famous. Nobody else could afford a house like that. Actually been thousand earlier that year looking for terry melcher he moved out but mansion encountered the current residents actress sharon tate the pregnant wife of film director roman polanski now how techs climbed the telephone pole and cut wires to that very same house. They all went over the gate. Just any young man named stephen parent who've who've been visiting the property caretaker was headed out of the driveway techs confronted him with a knife than shot him several times killing had begun. Tom with kosabe ian standing guard. Susan patricia and text went inside the house. Polanski was out of the country that night but his friend void take for husky was asleep on the couch techs kicked him. Susan atkins went to see who else was there. She starts down a hallway and there's here's a guest bedroom and there's a woman sitting up in bed. It's abigail folder aris to the folger's coffee fortune folder awesome. This was just some other friend to share and waves to her and susan atkins little finger wave back continues down the hall aw in the bedroom she found sharon tate jay sebring celebrity hairdresser and tastes former boyfriend. She heard them into the living at the d._d. Maria is jay seabreeze nephew. At a certain point watson turned his back and j charged and he shot jay is he was coming linked to him and then watson krenwinkel over started stabbing and kicking sharon tate quite naturally screaming mccaskey and folder breakout aside door or running across lawn krenwinkel watson chase after them sue everyone was left for dead except sharon tate. She's begging for her life but for her baby's susan atkins says bitch i have no sympathy for you and she slaughtered that susan atkins wrote the word pig in blood on the front door to make sure the cops would connect these murders to gary hinman smarter they they arrive back at the ranch charlie manson's waiting for them. Would you do tell me about it and they telling and he's furious from their description. He doesn't think they've left the house appalling enough that it will get the attention they want so said gwynn gwynne manson himself returned to the house at draped in american flag near sharon tate's body manson with a sense of theater thought that ah would be this thing that would really really make everybody gasped and pay attention a movie actress and four of her friends friends were murdered. The circumstances were lurid. Cloudy badly mutilated this. I'd rather not discuss but nobody made a link to gary. Hinman beausoleil remained in jail. Charlie was furious. They had screwed up. He blamed blamed them very much so if they've done it right at the end of the night and this time i'm going with you to make sure sure it gets done properly. He took his band of killers. On a tour of los angeles looking for just the right innocent victims uh-huh there was a street manson knew had been to a party there in the los angeles area of l._a. He picked the house next door. No idea <hes> who lived there it was the home of lino and rosemary labianca. Charlie says when they're outside the law bianca home that he'll go <unk> win. He'll check it out. Charlie comes back out gets tex watson. They go in first. They capture leena la bianca the ties la bianca up. Ask anybody else here. My wife's in the bedroom. Then manson welden got tex watson. Susan atkins patricia krenwinkel f- it would beg to go with them. This time charlie tells them go in there. Do what you need to do and he drives off in the car in the lobby. Uncles died as brutally as those the night before bound blindfolded and gay. The crime scene created horrify. If i were the girl's death to helter skelter misspelled had been written in blood on the refrigerator carved and toledo bianca's torso it was one word war. Surely no one could miss that. S in the killing still wasn't over. This was the one murder that manson was personally involved in and how how a jailhouse chat finally brings the nightmare to an end. She said unit who did it. Don't yell will you're looking at her. There were many funerals that week in the summer of sixty nine too many one for the beautiful sharon tate any of hollywood's elite turned out but a funeral despite the fact that was billed as a private family affair families washed the shocking news sir t._v. including the manson family follower barbara hoyt. I remember being scared by that. How do they react to the news. They laughed didn't bother them. At all. Charlie manson thought he'd hoodwink the police for sure that they would think the same people who killed tate eight in the lobby yonkers also killed gary hinman and so they'd free family member bobby beausoleil but even though there was talk to the tate labianca murders might be connected elected to each other police today for but speculate whether these two crimes and been done by the same person no one connected them to the henman case the plan failed bobby beausoleil state in jail and if that wasn't frustrating enough for manson just six days after lubyanka murders more than one hundred sheriff's deputies descended on the family they decide they're going to have a huge raid on spahn ranch. They're gonna arrest everybody in but the rate turned out to be good news for charlie manson because it didn't have anything anything to do with murder. The warrant was for auto theft totally unrelated and even that charge didn't stick manson manson uses this as a great example how powerful he is. They arrested all of us but i used my power in. They're letting us go the l._a. Times ran a small story about the cars after aid along with an article about the tate murders in the lobby yonker each story completely separate but madison was still on edge especially after he found out a ranch and trying to get the family kicked out of spahn ranch coach. Barbara hoyt remembers what happened next. I heard a scream and i bolted up. Is there any way to describe what that sounded by just appear horror. Did you have any idea whether it was a human or an animal <hes> shorty short. I recognize voice. This was the one murder that manson manson was personally involved in and shave with sort of hacked to pieces madsen decided it was time to get out of l._a. Maybe he was feeding the heat from that ray or maybe he wanted an even more remote place to keep his family under his control to him the whole idea. The of control is not just having people worshipping you but having people follow your orders in ways that contradict commonsense that is fleeing being an apocalyptic race war helter skelter. He moved them out to an old homestead called barker ranch over two hundred miles from los angeles now now part of death valley national park s death valley during this war he will lead his family into into death valley where there is a bottomless pit and a city underneath the surface they will go down there and be safe aw he seriously thought there was something beneath e- earth where all of you go and hide and escape the race war rivers of milk and honey money trees with different kinds of fruit barbara hoyt remained loyal to manson until she tells him out in the desert one day she overheard susan susan atkins gleefully describing the murder of sharon tate and suddenly feared for her own life and i knew i had to get out of there so early one morning barbara and a friend to huge risk. We walked out. You walk down. Yeah we walked out into the heat of death valley. They walked from from miles to the nearest ranch said barbara and she eventually reunited with her real family but the rest of the manson family stayed they'd busy in the desert the families up to its old tricks. There's cars stolen. There's different desecration of national monument areas all of of which once again drew the notice of law enforcement during two raids in october. They rounded up most of the family. The last to be captured was manson himself. Hi de under the bathroom sink. He told authorities his name was manson. Charles n aka jesus christ god the charges were auto theft arson. They'd face similar charges before had beaten the rap before but this time something unexpected completely out of manson's control somebody in the family squealed about susan atkins and her role gary henman's murder so oh atkins was moved from a jail near death valley to los angeles. She couldn't stay quiet her. She started sharing this incredible and unbelievable favorable story atkins boasted to a fellow inmate named virginia graham about the sharon tate murders. She said you know who did it. Don't yell and i looked at her and i said no. I don't and her words to me. Were will you're looking at her atkins. Virginia graham every hideous detail even mocking one of her victims. He was screaming help. Help somebody please help me and she said and nobody came and we killed him. Virginia told the cops apparently got the break in the tate case when this girl who's an arrested and talk to his cellmate about the tate killings four months after the tate and lobby on kelly's charles manson and several of his followers were indicted for murder he come to l._a. Seeking fame. I mean he was about to find family hadn't been stopped who might have been next. I elizabeth taylor steve mcqueen and frank sinatra the the day. I don't have any guilt i what i've done is all play banter from a man about to be tried for one of the most notorious killing sprees in american history read. I think mr manson feels that he is a product of our society. The case went to the late vincent bugliosi young prosecutor at the time i i used to have conversations with manson all the time charlie. I said i'm going to convict you. I said but after you get a fair trial tried to flip family members to testify against manson most stayed ferociously loyal even shaved their heads and a show of solidarity we die. We do anything anything for a brother chatty. Susan atkins was supposed to be a key witness. She had bragged about the killings in jail. Then told the whole story to a grand jury channel me how you feel. Then what is the feeling is not but atkins. We can't so julio's. He turned to virginia graham. One of the two fellow jail inmates atkins had confessed to graham told the jury sorry how atkins gidley described the tate labianca murders. There wasn't a sign of remorse of anything in fact it was almost very boastful and atkins vowed. They were just getting started said graham. They had a plan to murder a list celebrities. Was tom jones elizabeth taylor taylor steve mcqueen and frank sinatra they were going to skin him alive and make purses out of it and sell it on hollywood boulevard. Virginia graham's testimony made the front page one of many headlines in the trial that lasted some seven months the jury hearing the charges against charles manson and three girl members of his so-called family brought in its verdict this afternoon all were found guilty of murder in the first degree manson and several members of the family were sentenced to death for the tate and lobby on murders a career making victory for prosecutor vincent bugliosi cozy who was emphatic that the sentence was richly deserved in view of the incredible brutality of these savage nightmarish murders the death penalty unquestionably questionably was the proper verdict in this case then a little over a year later it all changed the california supreme court ruled today that the death penalty liaison constitutional there would be no gas chamber for manson or any of his convicted family members. Do you believe that there should be a death penalty all born to die. I'm going with the definite gas chamber. I believe what i'm totally don't you because of that california state supreme court ruling the sentences were reduced to life in prison with the possibility of parole even manson and that touched off debate that still rages decades later. Can people like these be rehabilitated -tated. Should they ever be released. There are so many reasons why against anthony de maria spent most of his adult life fighting parole the killers if his uncle j. c. bring when somebody says well. I've changed. I've rehabilitated. Will you might have put your victims are dusty in writing and a grave over the past four decades manson tex watson patricia krenwinkel and the late susan atkins who died in prison all had parole here raced each time they were quickly denied but leslie van houten seem to have some hope of being paroled this her hearing in two thousand th really hard to live with the murder houten who's been a model prisoner burn two degrees behind bars runs a self help group for inmates has expressed remorse source for decades. I accept responsibility. I know that what i did is inexcusable in two thousand nineteen and how was recommended commended for paroled pending review the governor but once again her parole was denied much to the relief of sharon tate sister who strongly opposed release. I don't think she deserves it. These people were brutally butchered. There has to be some kind of accountability accountability in this world. They're just simply has to be and it doesn't stop on personal safety and the man behind it all all who so desperately wanted to be famous they took charles manson to a bakersfield public hospital in the final days of his life the same place that treats rich and poor good and evil now the age of eighty three suffering from dementia according to a friend he died in the loving care of the system he so seem to hate. I haven't done anything. I'm shamed of guilty. <hes> i wouldn't do anything after guilty about mentioned that his family still seem to occupy some dark corner of our imagination a moment of time quentin tarantino has reimagined in his latest movie that said jeff green though we can't change history. We can still see charles manson for who he really was. We can't stop would manson. Did we can't stop this thing. If he's notorious let him be notorious for what he is. This horrible sociopath small we used his talents such as they were to become not just a symbol of the loss of innocence or naievety taste but an enduring lesson in how not to be a human being good evening everyone breaking news lester. Are you afraid iran is playing with fire. The most trusted tv news anchor in america here in normandy hundreds ribs gathered to honor the heroes what it means to be american evenings on your local n._b._c. station.

charles manson manson strangehold susan susan atkins sir roger smith charlie los angeles sharon tate murder charles manson denison gary Hinman beausoleil virginia patricia krenwinkel bobby beausoleil america death valley gary henman barbara hoyt madsen beatles
Summer of 69: The Manson Girls Pt. 1

Parcast Presents: Summer of '69

45:58 min | 1 year ago

Summer of 69: The Manson Girls Pt. 1

"Due to the graphic nature of these women's crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of Thirteen Leslie. Van Houten had always been a good girl as she stood in her father's home the home where she grew up she remembered the girl who used to sing and church choir. The charming young lady who was elected elected homecoming queen the house was dark. She watched her friends move from room to room collecting valuables. She watched them rob her family blind. Then she hurried agreed to help she felt a tinge of remorse as she looted heirlooms she one day might have inherited but she tamped those feelings down. This was for the greater good Charlie had been sending them on these nightly missions for the better part of the summer of nineteen sixty nine. They needed all the money and valuables they could get something was coming. He said something big a race war and when helter skelter hit she would would be at the center of it ready to lead the new world order these petty thefts didn't matter after helter skelter the house she had grown up in would be reduced to rebel her parents would never make it <music> out alive picture a murderer a gangster a thief. Did you picture a woman. They didn't think so society associates men with dangerous crimes but what happens when the perpetrator is female every Wednesday we examined the psychology motivations and atrocities of female criminals hi I'm Sammy Ni- and I'm Vanessa Richardson and you're listening to female criminals apar- cast original this week we're commemorating the fifty year anniversary of the infamous Manson family murders on August eighth and ninth nineteen sixty nine and covering the women Manson manipulated to carry out these gruesome crimes. This episode is part of podcasts summer of sixty-nine event July twenty second through August ninth all your our favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of landmark summer in American history. The summer of nineteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing were diving deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals. We'll be digging into the fallout of M._l._k.'s assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Colt and rumors of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more on our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. We are grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening it really does help on August eighth and ninth nineteen sixty nine followers of cult leader Charles Manson drove into Los Angeles and motored seven people seemingly at random among them was actress Sharon tate who was almost nine months pregnant at the time the Manson family murders are among the most infamous in the American cannon and change the socio political mindset mindset of the country forever Manson manipulated and weaponized the counterculture movement and captivated the American public with chilling sentiments like quote? I am only what you made me. I am only only a reflection of you but less well-known are the followers who committed these acts twenty one year old Susan Atkins Nineteen Year Old Leslie Van Houten Twenty One year old Patricia Krenwinkel Twenty Twenty Year Old Linda Ca Sapien twenty six year old Catherine share and twenty year old Lynette squeaky from me this week we'll delve into the lives of these women and find out how they came to live with the Manson family on the spawn ranch. Just outside Los Angeles next week will cover the two night murder spree that left seven dead and killed the counterculture movement Charles Manson was born to sixteen year old Kathleen Maddox on November Twelfth Nineteen thirty four he entered the world and unwanted child. His mother cared so little for him that she didn't even bother naming him on his hospital records to this day. His birth certificate reads no name Matic's if one needed further proof of her indifference Kathleen once took Manson to a bar when he was still a toddler a woman sitting eating a few stools down commented on how cute he was to which Kathleen replied by me a pitcher of beer and he's yours. The woman laughed and Bader the beer assuming kathleen was joking but an hour later Kathleen in got up and walked out her two year old son still sitting on the bar next to an empty pitcher Manson was later returned to his mother who was less than thrilled that the police had been able to track her down. It might seem unlikely likely that nobody called child protective services but in nineteen thirty six the U._S. was still recovering from the Great Depression and nobody had the resources to feed extra mouths. Children were no better off as wards of the state than with neglectful parents so back to Kathleen he went over the next thirty years Manson's life would get no easier he would be in and out of jail constantly for sex trafficking forgery the and theft in nineteen sixty he was arrested for pimping and spent the next seven years in McNeil Island prison by the time he was paroled in San Francisco in March nineteen sixty seven the thirty two year old vagabond bond was broke a hardened criminal and nothing short of psychopathic Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here just a reminder. She is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy Tammi in an article for medical daily journalist. Alana gloats reported that Manson showed signs of antisocial personality disorder throughout his life according to the D._S._M.. Five people with A._P._D.. Show disregard for the feelings of others and lack of moral responsibility the Mayo Clinic ads people with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize manipulate or treat others harshly or with callous indifference indifference. They show no guilt or remorse for their behavior. Psychopathy is an extreme form of A._P._D.. Hallmarked by manipulation impulsive and often aggressive behavior and a lack of regard for rules many psychopaths paths Manson included learn to mimic socially appropriate behavior to get what they want from people incapable of reform prison only exposed him to people who taught him how to improve his manipulation tactics. He learned how a target vulnerable women from pimps he met at McNeil Island Prison Soon Thirty two year old Charles Manson was nothing short of a snake charmer when he was paroled in nineteen sixty seven he he moved to San Francisco the place for the counterculture movement hippies swarmed the Haight Ashbury neighborhood seeking love acceptance and any drug available Manson arrived at haight Ashbury to discover throngs wrongs of men and women in their late teens and early twenties largely disillusioned by the Vietnam War and the materialism and traditional religious values of their parents generation the counterculture movement had turned away from established religious institutions and began looking for more spirituality based guidance. Many young people began following gurus who seem to have tapped some kind of nirvana or higher calling without realizing it many of these free spirited spirited hippies broke away from one established religion only to fall into smaller more radical religious groups with Charles Manson's magnetism and knack for public speaking he styled himself as one of these gurus and soon garnered himself a small following he traveled up and down the coast making contact with women around Southern California drawing them into his fold. One of his earliest followers was a young mousy redhead ED named Lynette Foamy Lynette has had many claims to fame over the years including her attempted assassination of President Gerald Ford in nineteen seventy five but before she was a failed assassin she was Charles Manson's right right hand woman. The oldest of three children Lynette was born on October twenty second nineteen forty eight in Santa Monica California her mother Helen was a homemaker and her father William was in aeronautical engineer from a young age Lynette proved that she was destined for notoriety as a kid. She was a star performer in a dance troupe called the West Chester Larry. It's the troop was so good that they were invited to tour all over the country even performing at the White House when Lynette was about ten Lynette was a fairly good student usually getting as and BS and had an interest in theater in fact it was through her junior highs theater department that she met the first man she would ever fall in love with a young Phil Hartmann who would later gain fame as a comedian on Saturday night live for the record. It doesn't seem like Lynette and Hartman ever dated she was enamored with him and always seem to be tagging digging along behind him. He didn't mind the attention but the affection was clearly one-sided. Limit shared equality similar to many of her future Manson family sisters a near constant need for validation specifically from men and according to author and researcher Bruce Brian's. These behaviors are often learned in childhood. Both men and women are trained from a young age to seek male attention especially in assist gendered Patriarchal Society like. Like the nineteen fifties United States in most family units at the time the father's attention was more scarce making it a hot commodity Lynette herself has confirmed that her father was often wrapped up in his own work and studies passionate about his job but emotionally unavailable to his children. According to Brian's women with emotionally unavailable father's often go looking for attention from their male peers but if they don't find the attention in romantic romantic partners some of these women Lynette included can become addicted to chasing approval from emotionally unavailable men. This kind of attention is usually lackluster at best but to Lynette it was better than no oh attention at all. She didn't mind having to work hard for divided attention equality that would serve her well in the years to come lynette graduated high school in Nineteen Sixty six after which her story gets a little little murky by age eighteen she was homeless living on the streets near Venice Beach California. Little is known about what drove such a wedge between her and her family that she ended up homeless just a few miles from where if she grew up biographer just braven has suggested that Lynette was sexually abused by her father which could have been why she felt unsafe living in his home but Lynette has denied these accusations. Whatever the reason by the time I'm she met Charles Manson in nineteen sixty seven nineteen year old lynette had hit rock bottom? She recalled sitting on a park bench by the beach. When a shaggy haired man approached her and said named Charlie the connection connection was instantaneous Lynette and Charlie talked about all sorts of things her past her feelings of abandonment about feeling trapped by her homelessness and Poverty Charlie listened and was empathetic? He said he understood stood Lynette. He adjusts spent nearly eight years trapped in prison for most young women. This would have been a red flag but no man had ever given Lynette this much undivided attention. Even her boyfriend had a way of making her feel misunderstood and lonely within their relationship then Charles Manson stood up and told Lynette he was on his way north to visit his mother he pointed to a small gaggle of people nearby and said that they were coming with him if if she liked Lynnette could come to with that Charlie and the group began to walk away Lynette was already tethered to him as he started to disappear down the block she could feel something tugging at her urging her go after him without thinking she grabbed her bag and took off down the street that Balmy Day in nineteen sixty seven and every day since Lynette fromm e did the thing she did best follow a man Dan who would never quite let her catch him Lynette settled into life with Charles Manson quickly. She was only one of several women with whom Charlie was intimate all of whom seemed vulnerable and directionless unless many of them were drug users or had hit rock-bottom Lynnette believed Charlie just wanted to protect them and take care of them a belief she still holds to this day. Lynette and Charlie soon began a sexual relationship along with a third member of their little group twenty-four-year-old Mary Brunner at First Charlie's polygamy made lynette uncomfortable especially as he began sleeping with newer members of the family some of whom were as young as thirteen but sharing Charlie's attention was better than being outside the family she got over it in truth. This was just the reaction Charles Manson was counting on he had a knack for spotting women who would let him push. I their boundaries learn from the pimps he met while serving time women who felt devalued by other men would confuse his manipulative behaviour as love in fact former Pimp Galen Harper once explained to k. five new Seattle that when grooming a woman for the sex trade he would seek out a woman with little confidence and work to gain her trust then he knew she would be hooked on him for the long term tragically most of Manson's followers. We're from broken homes. He prayed on women who consider themselves damaged an unwanted. He used sex to fabricate intimacy with these women knowing they would work to keep his attention. It was these skills that helped Manson Lure Patricia Krenwinkel who he renamed Katie into the fold in less than two years Charles Manson would completely remake Katie into a murderer in a moment the Manson family lays down roots and spreads its wings Hi there. If you enjoy this episode on the women of the Manson family search female criminals on spotify and give us a followed find more episodes now back to the story Patricia Krenwinkel was born on December third nineteen forty seven near Los Angeles. Her story is similar to many of the women who eventually followed Manson she felt lonely and unwanted and was searching to belong Patricia was bullied for most of her childhood for being overweight which made her feel isolated from her peers. At fifteen in she lost her virginity to a boy she thought had feelings for her only to never hear from him again after that she became addicted to diet pills supplied to her by her older sister Charlene who was a heroin addict but once Patricia lost considerable weight her pierce started bullying her about the excessive dark hair that covered her body then to top it all off her parents divorced in nineteen sixty five when she was seventeen and by the time she graduated High School in Nineteen Sixty six Patricia self worth was in the gutter she felt ugly and unwanted so much so that she decided no man would ever love her and turned her focus toward becoming a nun she briefly enrolled at springhill college in Alabama a Jesuit Catholic school with the intention of studying catechism but she dropped out after only one semester and returned home to Los is Angeles. She tried teaching catechism briefly but ultimately abandoned the idea of joining the convent and found a clerical job in L._A.. By the time she met Charles Manson in nineteen sixty seven nineteen year old Patricia felt felt utterly isolated from her peers and rejected by her family. She wants said quote. I never ever developed a sense of who I was and where I was going and what I wanted to do I wanted to please. I wanted into feel safe to feel like someone was going to care for me. I hadn't felt that from anyone else in my life she would soon meet the person who would easily low her into a sense of security however false one one night in September nineteen sixty seven Patricia came home to find Charlene in the basement with a group of her friends including a shaggy-haired Guitar player named Charlie Charlie immediately picked up on Patricia Insecurities Securities and pounced the two slept together that night and Charlie told her she was beautiful after nineteen years of being teased for her looks Patricia was so moved by the sentiment that she was brought to tears Charles Manson made her stand in front of a mere naked and call herself beautiful which only further broke down her defenses. She told Charlie that night that she would follow him anywhere and became the third third woman in his little traveling caravan she lynette Foamy and Mary Brenner became the Manson Girls Susan Atkins would soon join their ranks Susan a San Gabriel California native suffered a similar pattern of neglect. Her father was an alcoholic and her mother died of cancer in nineteen sixty three when Susan was fifteen Susan had always had a strange relationship with her father but without her mother as a buffer their relationship quickly deteriorated she moved out and fell in with a bad crowd eventually doing three months of jail time for armed robbery when she was released in nineteen sixty seven nineteen year old Susan moved to San Francisco where she took up topless dancing and selling drugs to make ends meet later that year she met Charles Manson when he came to visit a commune. She was staying in soon after their chance chance encounter Susan's Commun- was raided by police largely because it was more a drug infested flop house than a residence and Susan quickly found herself homeless Manson invited her to join his group and he established his own commune in San Francisco. The Manson family was officially born from its inception Charles Manson was always about ten years older than his average follower. He acted like a father figure to them which provided them with a sense of security they had lacked at home of course most upstanding fathers do not initiate sexual relationships with their daughters but this never seemed to bother the Manson girls many of whom were well underage but as their little family grew aspiring musician Charles Manson realized he would need a bigger place to stay somewhere he might be able to make it in the business in nineteen sixty eight he found wound such a spot and he and his little collection of broken souls headed south to the city where stars are born Beach Boys Drummer Dennis Wilson picked up a few of Charles Manson's family members members who were hitchhiking into L._A.. The hitchhiker's introduced Wilson to Charles Manson and the two men met and became fast friends. Manson was an aspiring musician and Dennis Wilson liked his energy and the Gaggle of women at has every Beck and call the to hit it off so well that Dennis agreed to allow Charlie and his followers to crash at his home for the course of the summer not only that but Dennis confided in Manson that he was growing tired of the beach boys sound and preferred the songs Charles composed he recorded a few of Manson's tracks and even introduced Charles to a record producer named Terry Melcher Melcher was one one of the biggest producers of his day. He's largely credited with shaping the California rock sound that has become so indicative of nineteen sixties counterculture and when Charles Manson and Dennis Wilson visited him at his home on Siello Dr. Dave meltzer seemed genuinely interested in Charlie's music he even tossed around the idea of making a movie about Manson's commune Manson left never having felt so high finally he was breaking into the music as a business and proving himself to be the rotten God he always knew he would be he had everything and impending record deal a gaggle of devoted followers and a swanky Hollywood home where the party never stopped opt but the endless lifestyle of sex drugs and more drugs soon war on Wilson who estimated that between food medical costs drugs noise complaints and property damage the ever-growing Manson family family was costing him around one hundred thousand dollars within just a few months. The Manson family was never a particularly large Kalt at its hide it only had about thirty members but they took over every nook and cranny any of Wilson's home until finally had to kick them out at the end of the summer in nineteen sixty eight the budding Manson family settled into spawned branch and abandoned movie said owned by George Spot and he agreed to allow the family to live on his ranch in exchange for upkeep of the property and his pick of the Manson girls spun is also credited with giving twenty year old Lynette Foamy the nickname squeaky after the noises she made when he grabbed her Manson loved the nickname and from that moment on the moniker stuck. It's widely insinuated that squeaky paid the families rent by having sex with spun on at least a few occasions but squeaky rickie has neither outright confirmed nor denied this it seemed as though the Manson family was back on the up and up even more thrilling Dennis Wilson Call to say that he was bringing Terry Melcher up to the ranch to hear a few more of Manson songs Charlie was thrilled and by all accounts Melcher did like his sound but he still had reservations about working with Charles Manson Melcher it seemed was a much better judge of character than Dennis Wilson Melchor left the ranch falsely promising to call Charlie soon when the call failed to come Manson spiraled into a rage he went looking for Dennis Wilson only to discover that Wilson wasn't home fuming he drove to the home on Ceelo drive where he had I met Melcher but unbeknownst to Charlie Melcher and his girlfriend had vacated the house months before it was now being rented to Director Roman Polanski he and his wife Sharon Tate Manson and Polanski seemingly had some kind of altercation at the home mostly because Manson refused to believe that Melcher no longer lived there he loved more venomous than ever and went back to spawn ranch to lick his wounds following a series of outbursts and threats Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher severed ties with Manson completely leaving his dreams of music stardom dashed but Charles Manson was always one to hold a grudge he projected all of the hate and neglect that he had been carrying with him for years onto the industry that had most recently rejected him and for the first time everything everything he hated had a physical address one zero zero five zero see yellow drive he committed it to memory and promised to be back throughout the rest of nineteen sixty eight and into nineteen sixty nine Charles Manson put all his energy into gathering new followers and bringing them to live on spawn ranch. The first of these was Katherine share of French American one woman born in Paris on December tenth nineteen forty to her parents were members of the French underground during World War Two and died of suicide to prevent themselves from being taken by Nazis. A newly orphaned Catherine was sent sent to a French orphanage where she lived until nineteen fifty when she was eight years old at this point she was adopted by a Frenchwoman and her American psychologist husband shortly afterwards the family of three relocated to Los Angeles US California but her new set of parents would later abandoned her in much the same way as her birth parents in nineteen fifty eight when Catherine was sixteen her mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer and decided to end things things on her own terms she to died of suicide. Her adoptive father was overwhelmed with grief and by that point had gone completely blind given everything he needed a caretaker and Catherine quickly filled that role but their relationship was never the same after the death of Catherine's adoptive mother her adoptive father grew distant and cold. She felt rejected by him especially after he remarried leaving teenage Catherine without much purpose or direction in life she graduated from Hollywood high school in nineteen sixty feeling more isolated than ever as her peers began to enjoy the free love movement that defined the decade she searched for a way to fill avoid in her life. She wanted to feel loved feeling anxious and alone she enrolled in college and spent the next three years trying to find some direction during that time I am she was married and quickly divorced which only left her feeling more lonely than before the relationship she indulged in overeating drugs and free love in an attempt to compensate by nineteen in sixty three twenty one year old Catherine was utterly listless. She embraced her new personas a flower child and began drifting around southern California ever in search of a party. She would often wind up back in L._A.. Where where for lack of something better to do she would take roles in soft porn films? One such acting role was in a movie called Ram rotter onset Catherine met Bobby Beausoleil a struggling musician from Santa Barbara and the two became fast friends bobby also introduced catherine to his wife Gail. The three hit it off so well that Catherine began living with them for the first time in years. She felt like she had a small makeshift family. In other words for the first time in a longtime she had something to lose which might have made her far more susceptible to the family friend Bobby soon introduced her to Charlie was the most charming person Catherine had ever met has shaggy brown hair and wide smile were captivating. She fell for him in an instant Catherine new little about Charlie other than the fact that he rented a huge ranch twenty five miles north of Los Angeles as as the two grew closer Catherine also learned that Charlie lived with a group of free love hippies all around her age they call themselves. The Manson family and Charlie was their leader. The word family grabbed her her. She knew she wanted to be a part of it. Eight months after moving in with bobby and gail all three of the move to spawn ranch and began living in the commune with Manson by the time they moved onto the ranch catherine had fallen in love with Charlie who seemingly reciprocated her feelings not that he was interested in monogamy of course when it came to sex Charlie Manson lived by a strict the more the Mayor Philosophy Charlie soon gave Catherine the nickname Gypsy moniker that would follow her the rest of her life. Gypsy was twenty six the oldest woman living on the ranch and quickly became the families mother she also became Manson's recruiter in chief seeking out vulnerable listless women who might like to help expand the family two of these women Leslie Van Houten and Linda Kosabe Ian would live on the ranch for less than a year before participating in one of the most infamous Venus murders in American history in a moment the Manson family gets its first taste of blood now back to the story Leslie Van Houten was born on August twenty third nineteen forty nine in Altadena California. She was born into an upper middle class family and given every advantage in the world she was enrolled in sports as a kid and even elected elected homecoming queen in high school but despite her well to do upbringing Leslie never felt emotionally supported by her parents she felt trapped by their expectations of marrying an equally well brought up man and becoming a housewife life as a teenager leslie experimented with drugs like l._S._d.. Hashish and marijuana but shortly after dabbling in drugs she began abusing them by the summer of nineteen sixty eight nineteen year ruled leslie was a full-blown drug addict and social rebel who had fallen out of her parents graces that Summer Leslie met Gypsy who told her about a man named Charles Manson and the family they were building at spawn ranch much like Gypsy Leslie was attracted to the notion of family and decided to stay on the ranch with her new friends quickly becoming one of Charles Manson's favorite girls Leslie has since described her experience on the ranch inch as surreal the group would have orgies and take l._S._d.. Together and it was during these trips that Charles Manson sermonizing about being the son of God he drew parallels between his last name Manson and being the son of man he would also make his followers help him recreate the crucifixion of Jesus with himself in the starring role while his group was under the influence of drugs he would explain to them somehow he the son of man had already died for them and asked if they would be willing to die for him in exchange for followers like squeaky. This was no problem in fact there was seemingly nothing squeaky wouldn't do for Manson because the family didn't have money for food the girls would drive down into Los Angeles and dumpster dive behind grocery stores for thrown out produce squeaky maintains that the food she ate out out of those dumpsters was among the freshest cheese hat in her life. It's been rumored that she along with a few other girls were also pressured into sleeping with managers of at least one grocery store in exchange for being allowed to wade through the. Garbage for food women outnumbered men on the ranch five to one ratio that Manson rather liked he would occasionally recruit men to the ranch by offering them one of his front girls the nickname he gave to his most attractive attractive set of followers. It was pimping belbow Charlie would paint it as family teamwork. They slept with men in exchange for drugs food or anything else. Charlie had his heart set on Manson also started forcing his followers to participate in Weird Trust exercises on one occasion he made followers stand in front of a tree while he threw hatchets just above their heads. If they flinched it meant they didn't trust him. Leslie recalled how Charles used to walk around the ranch and stop people at random to participate in weird exercises like mirroring his movements exactly so they were moving their hands and bodies in unison in hindsight she realized realized it was all part of brainwashing process to train his budding Colt to follow him in all things they were only allowed to listen to Charles Music on the ranch or the Beatles since he was particularly obsessed with the white album them nineteen sixty nine continued on like this with nightly parties and daily sermons all stranger-than-fiction by the time Gypsy brought Linda Kosabe into the ranch. The Manson cult was fully formed formed in July nineteen sixty nine twenty year old. Linda was living into Panga California with her husband an infant daughter at that point her marriage had fallen apart completely and Linda was looking for a way out she found one through Gypsy who invited Linda to come live on spawn ranch with a group of people who would love and take care of each other. Linda didn't need much coaxing when she arrived at the ranch she was surprised at how welcoming the other women were. She was glad to find that there were other children on the ranch for her daughter to play with. Everyone greeted her with hugs like she was one of them already in hindsight they were all completely drugged out but at the time it felt so warm that she didn't notice considering the loveless marriage she was leaving. It felt like a breath of fresh air. She didn't meet Charles Manson at first but the more she heard about him. The more the anticipation Asian built the first night on the ranch she met Tex Watson. One of Manson's few male followers the to hit it off right away. Linda was attracted to him and in later interview said he made me feel like I had never felt before within the first few days of meeting. Linda confided in texts that her husband and his friend kept little stores of money in their trailer totalling about five thousand dollars the money was meant for Linda the and her husband to start a new life together. Maybe taken exotic trip but no plan she made with her husband ever seemed to materialize. That's when tax gave her a proposition. She should steal the money he reasoned. It didn't belong to her husband anymore than belonged to her. Even at the time Linden knew that was untrue but she wanted acceptance into the family and felt that stealing the money might be the best way to get it. She was right after after raiding her old trailer for the cash. She was finally taken to meet Charlie. Linda remembered feeling a magnetic pull from the moment she met him. It was utterly thrilling not long after Linda's husband and his friend it came to the ranch to demand their money back Charlie stuck up for Linda immediately. It's unclear what exactly happened but a few moments in private with the two men sent them packing never to bother Linda again she had never felt so cared for from that moment onwards she became one of the thirty two adults in Manson's cult of course this isn't surprising whether Linda recognized it or not she had just undergone an initiation ceremony so mony a nineteen sixty five study conducted at Stanford University showed that high risk or unpleasant initiations make the group more attractive to the new member initiations are almost required for cults so that new members. I won't leave once the going gets rough and Linda's enthusiasm shows after all she had been willing to steal for this man before ever meeting him now. She do just about anything to see Charlie smile. Linda started participating in the colts now famous L._S._D.. Parties that would turn into orgies Manson would stay fairly sober during these two better control his followers he would tell them who to sleep with and control there every move and around this time his rhetoric grew noticeably darker leaving the realm of free love he began to convince his followers that he was the second coming of Christ and the devil all in the same person he began pushing his followers to commit strange petty crimes for him he called these missions creepy crawlies they would drive into Los Angeles and sneak into people's homes homes then rearrange all the furniture in the house while the homeowners were sleeping it was unnerving people would wake up to find all the furniture in their home rearranged with almost nothing stolen during that time men's and convinced Leslie Van Houten to Rob Her father's house she did so without a second thought Charles had always had irresistible charisma but now his followers were beginning to see him as something more he he was god-like to them. He began giving sermons to his followers wherein he would talk about the looming apocalypse that would destroy all but the chosen few he became obsessed with the Beatles Song Helter her skelter which he believed was written as a direct message to him he said the song was heralding the end times. When a great race war would lay society to ruin in his estimation the race war would lead to the toppling wing of white supremacy and the black community would rise to power as the new world leaders Manson and his friends would stay out of the war completely they would hide out in the desert which would become a land of milk and honey as described in the book look of revelation in the Bible he explained Black Americans deserve the right to rise to power they had been trampled on for centuries so it was only good Karma that they get their chance to rule but Manson was racist he also believed that the black community was unequipped to rule and would eventually need white men to show them how to lead with no other white men left Manson and his family would come back from the desert to take the reins of power from the overwhelmed black leaders? It was ridiculous racist Hogwash but his L._S._D.. Adult followers believed it wholeheartedly after all the nineteen sixties were a time of extreme racial tension in the United States hates. The rise of the Black Panthers caused over inflated panic among many white communities too many a race war wasn't a far leap from the race riots. They were seeing around the country Manson began speaking of helter skelter on daily basis. Linda Kosabe even recalled an excitement building around it then in late July nineteen sixty nine something happened that would put helter skelter on the fast track Manson family family member Bobbie Beausoleil went up to a friend's house accompanied by twenty six year old Mary Brunner and twenty one year old Susan Atkins the home was rented by a friend named Gary Henman a brilliant musician who had once played Carnegie Megi Hall he also supplied Bobby with drugs from time to time which bobby would then sell but the most recent batch of masculine Gary sold bobby was bad and his buyers wanted their money back which meant that bobby intern learn wanted a refund bobby. Susan and Mary overpowered Gary and tied him to a chair. They demanded their money back but gary told them he didn't have the cash eventually Manson showed up at the cabin with a Samurai Sword and tried to intimidate Gary but Gary wasn't scared of Manson and refused to pay by this point Charles Manson had been living as a deified cult leader for nearly two years he he didn't take kindly to being rebuked. He used the sword to slice part of Gary's ear off sending Gary Reeling and pain Bobby tried to patch Gary's ear up but gary insisted on seeking medical attention. Gary didn't know it but he had just signed his own death warrant Bobby would later say that Gary didn't deserve one bit of what happened next but he felt like he had no choice. He knew that the second they brought him to the hospital. SPITAL GARY WOULD NARC Bobby Killed Gary Henman. He tortured his friend for three days before finally stabbing him twice in the chest. Charles Manson knew exactly how to get away with the murder to using Gary's blood they made a pop print on the wall of Henman's cabin and wrote political piggies in Blood Charles hoped that by using these symbols of the Black Panthers he could pin the murder on them A._M.. And incite a race riot but he had learned something else to that if he wanted he could push his followers to murder. It was a skill he knew would be mighty useful in the impending war he returned to spawn on ranch and told his followers to get ready. A war was coming Hellfire would be on their doorstep and when it arrived all of Los Angeles would burn to the ground thanks again for tuning into our female criminals summer of sixty nine special next week we finish our deep dive into the Manson family murders a spree of slayings so horrific. They're largely considered the moment that ended the sixties. If you enjoyed this episode Checkout Park casts continued retrospective into the summer of sixty nine from July twenty second to August ninth the summer of sixty nine will feature twenty-three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer be sure to check it out on our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen into podcasts. Several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time.

Sharon Tate Manson Manson Charlie Charlie Lynette Foamy Lynette Los Angeles Charles Manson Melcher Van Houten Charles Kathleen Maddox Catherine spotify Susan Atkins Bobby Beausoleil High School murder San Francisco Linda Dennis Wilson United States
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Tales

14:34 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"In their true crime fans and then there are true. Crime experts. See where you fall in the podcast Trivia. podcast killer knowledge uncover more about some of the most shocking topics from history such as the Manson Family Jonestown. And even Jimmy Hoffa. I had so much fun competing in episode two against my good friend and Co host Greg. It was a no holds barred match. I hope you enjoy. Here's Carter to tell you more about his new show. Thank you so much. Every Tuesday on my new trivia show killer knowledge to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice true crime mhm questions whoever gains the most points after twenty questions wins with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic on lightning lightening. Even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in this exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast host. extraordinaire ordinaire Greg. And Vanessa and see how will you measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The nineteen sixties were a decade of divisiveness change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure. This era era of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. Welcome to killer knowledge a par cast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as two players. Go head the head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders. That shocked the nation violent. Elliot mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week we're looking back. The manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests. Ready to show off their incredibly ably. Deep true crime expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. Here on the podcast network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. Are you both both ready to face off. Yeah Greg's trepidation to you our listeners. Play along as we find out who has killer Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park asked originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at par cast and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay off the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. Christians A B and C broken up into three rounds fair warning. The questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer earns you the point for for that question. An incorrect answer gives the other player. The chance to get it right greg. You Buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa. Your buzzer sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the par cast golden headphones. Make sense to you yes okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first round. The the questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio and a father who was a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boys. The school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? BE A gun C- cigarettes cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct gun. It was after that incident Manson and was returned to the boys school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school this time time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Manson Manson? I get arrested for as a child. A arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'M GONNA say. His first was burglary burglary. Is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them at a grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old he was then sent to the very strict. Indiana boys. School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero. While at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense tactic a the insane game? Be the bully game gain. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game Out and now Manson was Small as a boy even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five two and five six top. So as a very short works skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage in convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone. All Right Gregg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boys school with some other the kids they were eventually caught in a stolen car in Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he would do two years later but from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers. Here's to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster Alvin creepy be Corpus. Here's question number four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A Pinot be guitar. See Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa. on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours studying religion before deciding. It was too crazy for him for question number. Five what religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty our studying a Christian science be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It's let's see scientology. Scientology is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate. In McNeil Island. It's it's even been reported that. He declared himself scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion Jn the story goes. He declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa. Four Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long way to go well. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned into join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly allegedly wanted to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors creek. The beach boys a that is incorrect. It seemed to make buzzed the door for you. You can guess I think it I it. Would the doors also incorrect headed to be. The monkey is the monkeys those the rumor band monkees member. Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving time time in nineteen sixty five so the point. Tally doesn't change four greg now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before being being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released a he wanted to stay in prison Zain Be? He wanted his record cleared see. He wanted his cellmate released to Greg. Hey he wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that Greg now has two point. Sodas four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know Charles Charles. Manson the early years so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson made. It is way to San Francisco right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and love of of Hallucinogenic Drugs and he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number. Eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the the Dalai Lama see Muhammad Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that is right. Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five. Two in favor of Vanessa Soon Manson and his his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine which member of the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer. A Dennis. Wilson B Brian Wilson C.. Carl Wilson. Greg Be Brian Wilson that his his incorrect on frayed. Do you have. I guess. A Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking king on Sunset Boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts including executive Terry Melcher. Who Time lived on Cielo drive in Los Angeles? Louis okay. The score stands at six to two in favor of Vanessa. How after Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round? What was the name? Some of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn. Ranch see see cal Amigos Ranch Greg be spahn ranch. That's correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty five edgar movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. And it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon. Conspiracies Parisi's okay. With that point greg is up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've followed Manson from troubled child to full blown California cult leader when we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's since teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Why looking can get me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Manson Manson Manson Muhammad Vanessa Greg Charles Manson Indiana Manson Charles Charles spotify Vanessa Richardson Greg Zero California Greg Poulsen Jimmy Hoffa Greg Won California Los Angeles Dennis Wilson Carter Roy Scientology Carl Wilson
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Serial Killers

14:34 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"There are true crime fans and then there are true. Crime experts. See where you fall in the podcast Trivia. podcast killer or knowledge I had the distinct pleasure of getting to compete in episode two against my good friend and Co host Vanessa. And let me tell you. We had an absolute blast uncover more about some of the most shocking topics in history such as the Manson Family Jonestown. And even Jimmy Hoffa. Here's Carter to tell you more about his new show. Oh thank you so much. Every Tuesday on my new trivia show killer knowledge to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice. True Crime Questions Christians. Whoever gains the most points after twenty questions wins with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic when lightning even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in this exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast? Host extraordinaire. Airs Greg and Vanessa and see how will you measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The nineteen sixties these were a decade of divisiveness and change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure this. The era of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. I welcome to killer knowledge. A podcast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as two players go. Oh head to head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders. That shocked the nation. Violent mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week. We're looking back back at the Manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests ready to show off their incredibly credibly. Deep true crime expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. Here on the podcast network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa. Richardson are are you both ready to face off. Zanu Greg's trepidation to you. Our listeners owners play along as we find out who has killer Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park has two originals on spotify defy or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice. This questions A. B. and C.. Broken up into three rounds fair warning. The questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer. Earns you the point point for that question. An incorrect answer gives the other player. The chance to get it right greg. If you buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa your buzzer sounds like this. Yes and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the podcast golden headphones. Let's make sense to you yes okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first around. The questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio. And a father who was a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boy school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself. Living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious serious. Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? Be A gun. C- Cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct a gun. It was after that incident. Manson was returned to the boy school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school well this time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Rose Manson? I get arrested for as a child. A arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'm going to say. His first was burglary. Burglary is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them at a grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old he was then sent to the very strict tricked. Indiana Boys School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero while at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense tactic a the insane game? Be The bully Ali game. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game things things are out. Manson was Small as a boy even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five to five six top. So as a very a short skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage and convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone on a right. Greg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boy school with some some other kids. They were eventually caught in a stolen car in Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he he would do years later. But from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster Alvin creepy creepy Corpus. Here's question number four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A EH piano. Be- Guitar See Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred and fifty hours studying religion even before deciding it was too crazy for him for question number five. What religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty fifty hours studying a Christian science? Be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It's see scientology scientology is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate. In McNeil Island. It's even been reported that. He declared himself a scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member after auditing religion. The story goes. He declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa. Four Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long long way to go well. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned initiative to join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly wanted to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors Greg. The beach boys a that is incorrect. It seemed to make the door for you. You can guess I think I I have the doors also in Colorado headed to know. Is the monkeys those. The rumor band a monkees. He's member Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving in time in nineteen sixty five so the point. Tally doesn't change almost four greg one now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before. We're being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released a he wanted to stay in imprison be? He wanted his record cleared see. He wanted his cellmate released to Greg. He wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he had spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that Greg now has two point. Sodas four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know no Charles Manson the early years so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson in made his way to San Francisco. Right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and and Love Hallucinogenic Drugs and he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number eight eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the Dalai Lama see Muhammad Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that his right Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five to do in favor of Vanessa Soon Manson and and his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine which member of the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer. A Dennis. Wilson B Brian Wilson C.. Carl Wilson. Greg Be Brian Wilson that that is incorrect. Frayed do you have. I guess a Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking checking on sunset boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire. Hire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts including executive Terry Melcher. Who at the time lived on Cielo drive in Los Dangerous okay? The score stands at six to two in favor of Vanessa. After Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round. What was the name name of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn ranch see cal Amigos ranch? Greg be spawned ranch. That is correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty. Eighty five acre movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. And it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon conspiracies. Okay with that point. Greg is up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've we've followed Manson from troubled child to full blown California cult leader when we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Why I looking at me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Rose Manson Muhammad Vanessa Manson Zanu Greg Charles Manson Indiana Manson Charles spotify Vanessa I Greg Zero Carter Roy Greg Poulsen California Greg Won Jimmy Hoffa California Dennis Wilson Carl Wilson Washington Ted Bundy
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Historical Figures

14:20 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"Hi It's Carter podcast listeners. Are you ready to put your phantom to the test and see just how well you know true crime within my new Trivia. Show killer knowledge is for you uncover more about some of the most shocking topics from history such as the Manson Family Jonestown. And even even Jimmy Hoffa every Tuesday to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice true crime questions. Whoever gained the most points after twenty questions Chins wins now with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic enlightening even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in? This exclusive exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast host extraordinaries. Greg and Vanessa and see how well you uh-huh measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. In the nineteen sixties were a decade of divisiveness and change while Psalm protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure. This era of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. Welcome to killer knowledge a par cast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as two players go head to head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders that shocked the nation violent mobsters John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week we're looking back at the Manson family murders that resonated beyond the California on your hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests ready to show off their incredibly deep. True Crime. Expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. PODCASTS here on the Park Network Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. Are you ready to face off. Take trepidation to you our listeners. Play along as we find out who has killer knowledge. Alleged Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park asked originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at park cast and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. ABC broken up into three rounds. Fair warning the questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer earns you the point for that question and incorrect answer gives the other player the chance to to get it right greg. If you buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa your buzzer sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the par cast golden headphones. Make sense to you yes. Okay let's play Eh killer knowledge here we go with round one for this first round. The questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into into the cult leader. We know today. Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in one thousand nine hundred eighty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio. You and the father who was a well known. Local CON artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boys school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself living with an aunt. It's an uncle. Truancy became an issue for young Charles but it wasn't long before things got more serious. Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? Be A gun. C- Cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct gun. It was after that incident. Manson was returned to the voice school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school this time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Manson I get arrested for as a child a arson be assault see burglary? We have taker with Vanessa I'm going to say a is. I was burglary burglary. Is the right answer at the time. He was with friends uncle when the police caught them at a Grocery Ocean restore in Illinois at thirteen years old. He was then sent to very strict. Indiana Boys School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero while at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which she would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense defense tactic a the insane game? Be the bully game. See The screaming Game Greg Doc. A The insane game awards. Things are out now. Manson was Small as the boy even as an adult many believe he was somewhere between five two and five six top. So as a very short skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage and convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone. All right. Greg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor CANESSA. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boys school with some other kids. They were eventually caught in a stolen car in Utah Doc. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he would do years later. But from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty. One man would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster. Alvin creepy carpets. Here's question number four. For what instrument did he learn to play in prison a piano be- guitar see Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while Oh he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent a hundred and fifty hours studying religion before deciding. It was too crazy for him for question. Number five what religion did Charles Manson reportedly spend a hundred and fifty hours studying a Christian science. Be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It see scientology. Scientology is the right. The answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from a cellmate in McNeil Island. It's even been reported that. He declared himself a scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion the story goes he declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa. Four Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long way to go. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington into a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned to join a popular rock band. Here's question region number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly want to join a the beach? Each boys be the monkeys. See The doors Greg. The beach boys a that is incorrect. Correct it seemed to make the door for you. You can guess I think I have the doors also incorrect. Go ahead to be no monkey. Is the monkeys those. The rumor ban monkees member. Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made got interpreted as fact. The rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving time in nineteen sixty five. So the point. Tally doesn't doesn't change for Greg. One now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released A? He wanted to stay in prison be he wanted. His record cleared see he wanted his cellmate released to Greg. He wanted to state prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since is by this time he had spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that. Greg now has two point. So it is four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know Charles Manson earlier so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom. In California after being released Manson made his way to San Francisco. Right as the summer of Love was starting. The hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and love of hallucinogenic drugs. And he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the Dalai Lama see Mohammed Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that is right. Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five to do in favor of Vanessa soon. Manson and his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in and various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question nine. which member of the beach boys always did they meet and move in with for a summer? A Dennis Wilson B. Brian Wilson C. Z.. Carl Wilson Greg. Be Brian Wilson. That is incorrect. Afraid do you have. I guess a Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He met two of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking on Sunset Boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts. Ax including executive Terry Melcher. Who at the time lived on Cielo drive in Los Angeles okay? The score stands at sixty two in favor of Vanessa. Now after Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters quarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round was the name of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn ranch see cal Amigos ranch. Greg be spawned rich. That is correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty five acre movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. Kanye and it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon conspiracies. Okay with that point. Greg is up to three Eh. Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've followed Manson from troubled child to full blown. California cult won't leader when we come back. The Trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Why looking at me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Manson Carl Wilson Greg Manson Mohammed Vanessa Indiana Manson spotify Vanessa I Dennis Wilson California Greg Zero Greg Doc Greg Poulsen Indiana Boys School Vanessa Richardson Greg Won Jimmy Hoffa Los Angeles Dennis Wilson B. Brian Wilson Carter Roy Ted Bundy
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Cults

14:34 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"There are true crime fans and then there are true. Crime experts. See where you fall in the podcast Trivia. podcast killer the knowledge. I had the distinct pleasure of getting to compete in episode two against my good friend and Co host Vanessa. And let me tell you. We had an absolute blast uncover more about some of the most shocking topics in history such as the Manson Family Jonestown. And even Jimmy Hoffa. Here's Carter to tell you more about his new show. Oh thank you so much. Every Tuesday on my new trivia show killer knowledge to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice. True Crime Questions Christians. Whoever gains the most points after twenty questions wins with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic when lightning even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in this exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast? Host extraordinaire. Airs Greg and Vanessa and see how will you measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or or wherever you get your podcasts. The nineteen sixties. These were a decade of divisiveness change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure this EHRE of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. I welcome to killer knowledge. A podcast original. I'm Carter Roy and it's time to learn some true crime history as two players go. Oh head to head in this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode. We cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders. That shocked the nation. Violent mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week we're looking back back at the Manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests ready to show off their incredibly credibly. Deep true crime expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. Here on the podcast network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson are. Are you both ready to face off. Zanu Greg's trepidation to you. Our listeners owners play along as we find out who has killer Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park has two originals on spotify defy or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and instagram at par cast and and on twitter at podcast network. Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice. This questions A. B. and C.. Broken up into three rounds fair warning. The questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer. Earns you the point point for that question. An incorrect answer gives the other player. The chance to get it right greg. If you buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa your buzzer sounds like this. Yes and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the podcast golden headphones. Let's make sense to you yes okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first around. The questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio. And a father who was a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boy school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself. Living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious serious. Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? Be A gun. C- Cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct a gun. It was after that incident. Manson was returned to the boy school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school well this time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Rose Manson? I get arrested for as a child. A arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'm going to say. His first was burglary. Burglary is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them at a grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old he was then sent to the very strict tricked. Indiana Boys School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero while at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense tactic a the insane game? Be The bully Ali game. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game things things are out. Manson was Small as a boy even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five to five six top. So as a very a short skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage and convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone on a right. Greg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boys school with some some other kids. They were eventually caught in a stolen car. In Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he he would do years later. But from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster Alvin creepy creepy Corpus. Here's question number four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A EH piano. Be- Guitar See Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred and fifty hours studying religion and before deciding it was too crazy for him for question number five. What religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty fifty hours studying a Christian science? Be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It's see scientology scientology is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate. In McNeil Island. It's even been reported that. He declared himself a scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion the story goes he declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa. Four Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long long way to go well. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned initiative to join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly wanted to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors Greg. The beach boys a that is incorrect. It seemed to make the door for you. You can guess I think I I have the doors also incorrect. No monkey is the monkeys those. The rumor band monkees. He's member Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving in time in nineteen sixty five so the point. Tally doesn't change almost four greg one now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before. We're being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released a he wanted to stay in imprison be? He wanted his record cleared see. He wanted his cellmate released to Greg. He wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that. Greg now has two point. So it is four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know the Charles Manson the early years so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson in made his way to San Francisco. Right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and and Love Hallucinogenic Drugs and he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number eight eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the Dalai Lama see Muhammad Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that his right Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five to do in favor of Vanessa Soon Manson and and his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine which member of the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer. A Dennis. Wilson B Brian Wilson C.. Carl Wilson. Greg Be Brian Wilson that that is incorrect. Frayed do you have. I guess a Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking checking on sunset boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire. Fire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts including executive Terry Melcher. Who at the time lived on Cielo drive in Los Dangerous okay? The score stands at six to two in favor of Vanessa. After Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round. What was the name name of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn ranch see cal Amigos ranch? Greg be spawned ranch. That is correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty. Eighty five acre movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. And it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon conspiracies. Okay with that point. Greg is up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've we've followed Manson from troubled child to full blown California cult leader when we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Why why looking at me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Rose Manson Muhammad Vanessa Manson Zanu Greg Charles Manson Indiana Manson Charles spotify Vanessa I Greg Zero Carter Roy Greg Poulsen California Vanessa Richardson Greg Won Jimmy Hoffa California Dennis Wilson facebook Carl Wilson
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Haunted Places

14:34 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"There are true crime fans and then there are true. Crime experts. See where you fall in the podcast Trivia. podcast killer the knowledge. I had the distinct pleasure of getting to compete in episode two against my good friend and Co host Vanessa. And let me tell you. We had an absolute blast uncover more about some of the most shocking topics in history such as the Manson Family Jonestown. And even Jimmy Hoffa. Here's Carter to tell you more about his new show. Oh thank you so much. Every Tuesday on my new trivia show killer knowledge to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice. True Crime Questions Christians. Whoever gains the most points after twenty questions wins with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic when lightning even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in this exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast host extraordinaire? There's Greg and Vanessa and see how will you measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or or wherever you get your podcasts. The nineteen sixties. These were a decade of divisiveness change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure this. The era of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. I welcome to killer knowledge. A podcast original. I'm Carter Roy and it's time to learn some true crime history as two players go. Oh head to head in this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode. We cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders. That shocked the nation. Violent mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week we're looking back back at the Manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests ready to show off their incredibly credibly. Deep true crime expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. Here on the podcast network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson are. Are you both ready to face off. Yeah Zagreg's trepidation to you. Our listeners owners play along as we find out who has killer Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park has two originals on spotify defy or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice. This questions A. B. and C.. Broken up into three rounds fair warning. The questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer. Earns you the point point for that question. An incorrect answer gives the other player. The chance to get it right greg. If you buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa your buzzer sounds like this. Yes and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the podcast golden headphones. Let's make sense to you yes okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first around. The questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio. In a father who was a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boy school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself. Living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious serious. Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? Be A gun. C- Cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct a gun. It was after that incident. Manson was returned to the boy school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school well this time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Rose Manson? I get arrested for as a child. A arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'm going to say. His first was burglary. Burglary is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them at a grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old he was then sent to the very strict tricked. Indiana Boys School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero while at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense tactic a the insane game? Be the bully elite game. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game things things are out. Manson was Small as a boy even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five to five six top. So as a very a short skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage and convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone on a right. Greg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boy school with some some other kids. They were eventually caught in a stolen car in Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he he would do years later. But from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster Alvin creepy creepy Corpus. Here's question number four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A EH piano. Be- Guitar See Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours studying religion and before deciding it was too crazy for him for question number five. What religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty fifty hours studying a Christian science? Be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It's see scientology scientology is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate. In McNeil Island. It's even been reported that. He declared himself a scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion the story goes he declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa. Four Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long long way to go well. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned initiative to join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly wanted to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors Greg. The beach boys a that is incorrect. It seemed to make the door for you. You can guess I think I I have the doors. Also incorrect headed to know. Is the monkeys those. The rumor band a monkees. He's member Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving in time in nineteen sixty five so the point. Tally doesn't change almost four greg one now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before. We're being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released a he wanted to stay in imprison be? He wanted his record cleared see. He wanted his cellmate released to Greg. He wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he had spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that Greg now has two points. So it is four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know no Charles Manson the early years so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson in made his way to San Francisco. Right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and and Love Hallucinogenic Drugs and he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number eight eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the Dalai Lama see Muhammad Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that his right Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five to do in favor of Vanessa Soon Manson and and his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine which member of the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer. A Dennis. Wilson B Brian Wilson C.. Carl Wilson. Greg Be Brian Wilson that that is incorrect. Frayed do you have. I guess a Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking checking on sunset boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire. Hire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts including executive Terry Melcher. Who at the time lived on Cielo drive in Los Dangerous okay? The score stands at six to two in favor of Vanessa. After Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round. What was the name name of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn ranch see cal Amigos ranch? Greg be spawned ranch. That is correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty. Eighty five acre movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. And it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon conspiracies. Okay with that point. Greg is up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've we've followed Manson from troubled child to full blown California cult leader when we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Why why looking at me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Rose Manson Manson Muhammad Vanessa Greg Charles Manson Indiana Manson Charles spotify Vanessa I Greg Zero Carter Roy California Vanessa Richardson Greg Poulsen Jimmy Hoffa Greg Won California Dennis Wilson Carl Wilson Washington
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Not Guilty

14:34 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"In their true crime fans and then there are true. Crime experts. See where you fall in the podcast Trivia. podcast killer knowledge uncover more about some of the most shocking topics from history such as the Manson Family Jonestown. And even Jimmy Hoffa. I had so much fun competing in episode two against my good friend and Co host Greg. It was a no holds barred match. I hope you enjoy. Here's Carter to tell you more about his new show. Thank you so much. Every Tuesday on my new trivia show killer knowledge to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice true crime mhm questions whoever gains the most points after twenty questions wins with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic on lightning lightening. Even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in this exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast host. extraordinaire ordinaire Greg. And Vanessa and see how will you measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The nineteen sixties were a decade of divisiveness change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure. This era era of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. Welcome to killer knowledge a par cast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as two players. Go head the head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders. That shocked the nation violent. Elliot mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week we're looking back. The manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests. Ready to show off their incredibly ably. Deep true crime expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. Here on the podcast network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. Are you both ready to face off. Yeah necessarily drags trepidation to you. Our listeners play along as we find out who has killer. Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park asked originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at par cast and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay off the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. Christians A B and C broken up into three rounds fair warning. The questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer earns you the point for for that question. An incorrect answer gives the other player. The chance to get it right greg. You Buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa. Your buzzer sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the par cast golden headphones. Make sense to you yes okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first round. The the questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio and a father who is a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boys. The school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? BE A gun C- cigarettes cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct gun. It was after that incident Manson and was returned to the boys school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school this time time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Manson Manson? I get arrested for as a child. A arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'M GONNA say. His first was burglary burglary. Is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them at a grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old he was then sent to the very strict. Indiana boys. School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero. While at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense tactic a the insane game? Be the bully game gain. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game Out and now Manson was Small as a boy even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five two and five six top. So as a very short works skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage in convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone. All Right Gregg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boys school with some other kids. They were eventually caught in a stolen car. In Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he would do two years later but from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers. Here's to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster Alvin creepy be Corpus. Here's question number four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A Pinot be guitar. See Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa. on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours studying religion before deciding. It was too crazy for him for question number. Five what religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours our studying a Christian science be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It's let's see scientology. Scientology is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate. In McNeil Island. It's it's even been reported that. He declared himself scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion region. The story goes. He declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa for Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long way to go well. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned into join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly allegedly wanted to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors creek. The beach boys a that is incorrect. It seemed to make fun Senescence. The door for you you can guess I think I it. Would the doors also incorrect headed to be the monkey. Is the monkeys those. The rumor band monkees member. Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving time time in nineteen sixty five so the point. Tally doesn't change four greg now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before being being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released a he wanted to stay in prison Zain Be? He wanted his record cleared see. He wanted his cellmate released to Greg. Hey he wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that Greg now has two point. Sodas four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know Charles Charles. Manson the early years so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson made. It is way to San Francisco right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and love of of Hallucinogenic Drugs and he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number. Eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the the Dalai Lama see Muhammad Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that is right. Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five. Two in favor of Vanessa Soon Manson and his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine. which member of the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer? A Dennis Wilson B. Brian Wilson C.. Carl Wilson Greg. Be Brian Wilson that his his incorrect on frayed. Do you have. I guess a Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking king on Sunset Boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts including executive Terry Melcher. Who at the time lived on Cielo drive in Los Angeles? Louis okay. The score stands at six to two in favor of Vanessa. How after Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round? What was the name? Some of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn. Ranch see see cal Amigos Ranch Greg be spahn ranch. That's correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty five edgar movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. And it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon. Conspiracies Parisi's okay. With that point greg is up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've followed followed. Manson from troubled child to full blown California cult leader. When we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's since teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game? Why looking can get me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Manson Manson Manson Muhammad Vanessa Carl Wilson Greg Charles Manson Indiana Manson Charles Charles spotify Vanessa Richardson California Greg Zero Scientology Jimmy Hoffa Greg Poulsen California Los Angeles Dennis Wilson Carter Roy Dennis Wilson B. Brian Wilson burglary
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Female Criminals

14:34 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"In their true crime fans and then there are true. Crime experts. See where you fall in the podcast Trivia. podcast killer knowledge uncover more about some of the most shocking topics from history such as the Manson family Jonestown. And even Jimmy Hoffa. I had so much fun competing in episode two against my good friend and Co host Greg. It was a no holds barred match. I hope you enjoy. Here's Carter to tell you more about his new show. Thank you so much. Every Tuesday on my new trivia show killer knowledge to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice true crime mhm questions whoever gains the most points after twenty questions wins with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic on lightning lightening. Even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in this exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast host. extraordinaire ordinaire Greg. And Vanessa and see how will you measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The nineteen sixties were a decade of divisiveness change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure. This era era of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. Welcome to killer knowledge a par cast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as two players. Go head the head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders. That shocked the nation violent. Elliot mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week we're looking back. The manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests ready to show off their incredibly Bley. Deep true crime expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. Here on the podcast network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. Are you both both ready to face off. Yeah necessarily drags trepidation to you. Our listeners play along as we find out who has killer. Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park asked originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and instagram at par cast and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay off the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. Christians A B and C broken up into three rounds fair warning. The questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer earns you the point for for that question. An incorrect answer gives the other player. The chance to get it right greg. You Buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa. Your buzzer sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the par cast golden headphones. Make sense to you yes okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first round. The the questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio and a father who is a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boys. The school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? BE A gun C- cigarettes cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct gun. It was after that incident Manson and was returned to the boys school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school this time time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Manson Manson? I get arrested for as a child. A arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'M GONNA say. His first was burglary burglary. Is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them at a grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old he was then sent to the very strict. Indiana boys. School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero. While at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense tactic a the insane game? Be the bully game gain. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game Out and now Manson was Small as a boy even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five two and five six top. So as a very short works skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage in convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone. All Right Gregg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boys school with some other kids. They were eventually caught in a stolen car. In Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he would do two years later but from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers. Here's to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster Alvin creepy be Corpus. Here's question number four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A Pinot be guitar. See Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa. on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours studying religion before deciding. It was too crazy for him for question number. Five what religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty our studying a Christian science be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It's let's see scientology. Scientology is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate. In McNeil Island. It's it's even been reported that. He declared himself scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion Jn the story goes. He declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa for Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long way to go well. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned into join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly allegedly wanted to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors creek. The beach boys a that is incorrect. It seemed to make buzzed the door for you. You can guess I think it I it would the doors also incorrect. Not being the Monkey. Is the monkeys those. The rumor band monkees member. Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving time time in nineteen sixty five so the point. Tally doesn't change four greg now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before being being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released a he wanted to stay in prison Zain Be? He wanted his record cleared see. He wanted his cellmate released to Greg. Hey he wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that Greg now has two point. Sodas four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know Charles Charles. Manson the early years so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson made. It is way to San Francisco right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and love of of Hallucinogenic Drugs and he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number. Eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the the Dalai Lama see Muhammad Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that is right. Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five. Two in favor of Vanessa Soon Manson and his his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine which member of the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer. A Dennis. Wilson B Brian Wilson C.. Carl Wilson. Greg Be Brian Wilson that his his incorrect on frayed. Do you have. I guess. A Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking king on sunset boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts including executive Terry Melcher. Who at the time lived on Cielo drive in Los Angeles? Louis okay. The score stands at six to two in favor of Vanessa. How after Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round? What was the name? Some of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn. Ranch see see cal Amigos Ranch Greg be spahn ranch. That's correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty five edgar movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. And it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon. Conspiracies Parisi's okay. With that point greg is up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've followed Manson from troubled child to full blown California cult leader when we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's since teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Why looking can get me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Manson Manson Muhammad Vanessa Manson Greg Charles Manson Indiana Manson Charles Charles spotify Vanessa Richardson California Greg Zero Greg Poulsen Jimmy Hoffa California Los Angeles Dennis Wilson Carter Roy Scientology Carl Wilson Indiana
#1459 - Tom O'Neill

The Joe Rogan Experience

3:04:44 hr | 4 months ago

#1459 - Tom O'Neill

"Hello friends welcome to the show. This episode of the PODCAST is brought to you by trigger. I'm a gigantic fan of traegergrills. I've been using one long before it was ever sponsor of the podcast. It's a pellet grill. It's super easy to use. If you don't know what appellate guerrillas just use these little wood pellets that are made from sawdust so when someone buys oak or cherry or any kind of would they take the Sawdust when they cut the would compress it. And using just the natural sugars of the would make these pellets the pellets you pour them into this hopper it all gets fed through a worm drive very complicated but it's really easy to use and heating element just sparks. It up it's just fire and would SA- tastes delicious in parts of very smokey flavor to the meat. Especially if you use these super smoke option super smoke. Anything below. Two hundred twenty-five degrees accentuates smoke. It's my favorite way to cook. I love these grills and they have a fantastic application that I use just the other day on Easter Sunday to cook a leg of lamb. And you do it through the Wi fi APP. It's called wildfire their APP and the traeger APP. You find the recipe in there and then it will cook through the recipe so the recipe called for it to be four hundred fifty degrees for thirty minutes. And then it drops down to three hundred fifty degrees for the remaining ninety minutes for this big old leg of lamb. Well the the recipe in the APP does everything. It changes the temperature of the grill for you. You can with the APP. You can manually adjusted temperature the grill. You can turn super smoke on or off. It has a meat. Probe Tell you exactly on your phone. What temperature meat is. I love it. It's so easy and they're so good at maintaining temperature. I can't say enough good things about these grills traders kicking off grilling season with a limited time sale from Friday April seventeenth to Sunday April. Twenty six you can buy a pro. Thirty four or the Y. Fire enabled that's the application pros. Five seventy five pro. Seven Eighty ironwood six fifty or ironwood eighty five. Which is when I have. The iron was are the shit. You get a Free Grill. Cover plus two twenty pound bags of hardwood pellets. Which is a one hundred and seventeen dollar value? Plus you get free shipping when you use the Code Rogan at checkout head over to traegergrills DOT COM. That's T. R. A. E. G. E. R. G. R. I L. S. TRAEGERGRILLS DOT COM SLASH JOE. And get cooking. We're also brought to you by the motherfucking cash up the cash APP a fantastic application which is the easiest way to send money between your friends and your family without having to hold that ditty paper cash. You don't have to have paper you through the cash on cash apps also the best way to try to grow your money with their investing feature and unlike other unreliable bullshit investing tools that force you to buy entire shares of stock cash APP. Lets you invest in the market with as little as one dollar cash? App is also the easiest way to buy and sell bitcoin. So what the fuck are you waiting for? And of course when you download the cash APP and enter the referral code. Joe Rogan. All One word you will receive ten dollars and the cash apple sent to our good friend just in Rennes fight for the forgotten. Charity Building Wells for the pygmies in the Congo and through this promotion. We have raised a shitload of money and built several wells. And they're in the process of building several more right now so do that. And don't forget use the Promo Code Joe Rogan all one word when you download the cash APP from the APP store or the Google play store to day. We're also brought to you by athletic. Greens Athletic Greens is a fantastic Greens. Superfoods supplement that is proprietary blend of seventy five vitamins minerals and whole food sourced ingredients. And it's all designed to fill the nutritional gaps in your diet and bolster the four pillars of health energy gut health immune support and recovery with added prebiotics. Probiotics adapted Jin's digestive enzymes superfoods and more athletic. Greens is one of the most complete comprehensive products on the market. No need for multiple pills or complex routines just one daily scoop and they have these really cool little travel packs. I keep these travel packs in my backpack. Throw him in my suitcase. Him with me on the robe really simple. Just rip one of those open throat in a bottle of water shake it up and I've got my nutrition covered. Athletic Greens was developed over ten years. This is the fifty third iteration. They're constantly working on improving this thing and it's NSF. Certified for sport meaning. They take their product. Very seriously consistently testing auditing to make sure that what's on the label is actually there and it's lifestyle friendly whether you eat. Kito Paleo vegan dairy free Gluten Free. They got you covered no harmful chemicals. No GMO's no funny additives and it's developed in a powder for optimal absorption who? It's great for you. It's easy and it's just nutritional insurance folks and if you're interested in upping your health routine and looking for one of the best most complete formulas out there you want to check out athletic Greens. It's fantastic stuff. They deliver it straight to your door and it tastes great and it keeps you healthy. Baby jump over to athletic. Greens dot com slash Rogan and. Clean the special offer today. Get eight twenty serving pack for free valued at seventy nine dollars with your first purchase. You can also claim this offer in the UK and in Europe using the same you are l. that's athletic. Greens dot com slash Rogan. Okay folks this is a good one. This is A. We're doing podcast today with Tom. O'neil and Tom O'Neill wrote a book called chaos and it's it's called. Chaos Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixties. This is a book I can wholeheartedly recommend I am. I am deep into this book. I didn't quite finish it before. Tom came onto the podcast. But but it's fucking I don't want to give away too much of it in the introduction. I just want to tell you this shit goes deep and it's fascinating and Tom did a spectacular job and worked on this book literally for Twenty Years. It's a crazy story. We get into that in the PODCAST But I I really enjoyed it and I hope you too. Please welcome Tom. O'neil Joe Rogan. Experience podcast Tom. How are you good job? Great to meet you too. I've been deep into your book for the last two weeks and we'll tell everybody what it's called right off the bat it's called chaos. Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixties. And I think it's safe to say that everything that most people believe that happened during the Manson murders is a tiny fraction of what was going on behind the scenes. And this is what you have essentially been obsessed with this for. How many years of take you do this? Yeah Not by choice happen but In the end exactly twenty years we turned in the final manuscript. Think Day to the twenty th year and this wasn't a personal obsession with yours writing an article. Le- let's fill people in the the beginning was I was in between magazines and not working and I got a call from an editor. I'd worked with for years and she was Premier magazine at that point. Which was a monthly movie magazine? And she wanted me to do a story. On the upcoming thirtieth anniversary of the Manson murders which was nine hundred. Ninety nine happened in sixty nine and I was like no no thanks. No never been interested. Hasn't the story been written? You know death and she said look once we talk about it you're GonNa See. Manson comes up much more often in popular culture than you're aware of Just trust me on that and I think that if you look into it you'll find an interesting story. I go but you know. What about the thirtieth anniversary? There's no angle and she goes. You've done it before you'll find an angle. We had worked together a lot and that began a spiral into kind of madness that finally ended last last year in March when we turn the manuscript in that is so crazy that it took that long shutdown five years later so you never got. You never got anything printed in the magazine. Well no I mean that's also a little bit of a complicated story too. I got an assignment to a normal feature which is about three months. Three and a half months So I got it on the day after my fortieth birthday which is time in any man person's life where you're kind of reevaluating things anyway. So I thought I needed the money and I needed a job and I knew that I could get into Premier magazine as a contributor on the masthead which meant a yearly contract because all the people from magazine had moved over and once I had a good story there and this would have been the first then I'd be set so I had to do it and long story very long story short After a month or two when the story Kinda started breaking open and I started finding holes in the official narrative and pursuing them I had met with the editor in chief. Jim Aches and he agreed once he saw all of the documentation I had and the evidence which was just a small portion of what I ended up having in the end he agreed to blow the deadline. For what would have been the anniversary issue of August ninety nine and he started contracting me by the month and that continued for a year and a half. All I did was report. The story on premiers dime. He lost his job because of you. Well that was kind of what was whispered around the offices. I never heard that You know that was ever substantiate it. I'm a little worried that it had something to do with it. He went on to a career. That was fine anyway but When the guy came in he demanded the story right away. I mean I understood that and at that point I got a book agent Through a friend and my book agent got me out of my obligation to premier so premier essentially paid for you to start your book. Yeah a lot of money. Oh my goodness yeah. And that's I'm actually because it was resolved not in the courts but we all had to sign. Non Disclosures so I didn't get entirely away with it for for nothing but at that point though that was I think two thousand and one or late two thousand then I was on my own. I had to write a proposal and sell the proposals book. So that happened next. Finally in two thousand and five and when we took the proposal out it was booked length. That was two hundred and twenty pages and my agent whose big shotted. Icm who was also kind of what I would do it. I was seduced people into the story and get them as I was like. Pretend I'm a guy in trying to pitch me this book in the beginning in the first year just that the trial that had occurred that have been prosecuted by Vincent Bugliosi had a lot of malfeasance. In by the prosecution I was able to document that they planted a former prosecutor on that defense team to sabotage the defense. I found out that two or three of the principal. Witnesses including Terry Melcher. Who played a big part in this and we'll probably talk about that. At some point lied on the stand you know support themselves and a and a murder trial and if you commit perjury in a murder trial you could be convicted of murder. I mean you could be sentenced to a murder. A murder sentence to because of that So there was about a dozen of those and none of them happened all at once so if you committed perjury. During a murder trial you could be sentenced for murder for the same amount of time that someone would get sentences. They murdered somebody. You are subject to an actual capital. You could be like you could be sent to the chair and the five people who were convicted of murder in the first trial. Once had I been around and able to prove this in the early seventies Vincent Bugliosi and the three people who lied on the stand in a material way. You on a very important way. They all could have been tried for that perjury and sentenced to the same or given the same sentence that the people who have gotten the essence. I told you that I just got to the eleventh chapter of Your Book. Right and essentially what? I'm getting so far. I haven't finished a book but what I'm getting so far is there was some sort of a CIA program where they were explain how they did it. They they infiltrated these hippy communities and they allow Charles Manson over and over and over again to get out of jail. They knew that he was committing all these crimes. Instead of incarcerating. Say They. Who's they? Yeah we have to kind of break it all down. Let's let's break it all down. One of the other things I found out that was very significant was that Manson had a parole officer. His first parole officer who kind of had given him a get out of jail free card for the first year after Manson was released from prison and Smith Roger Smith. Yeah and he was a criminologist in the bay area. Manson violated his parole day that he was released in Los Angeles. And this is one of the. You'd think it's a little lie. But it's an important lie that bins poulios presented not just in a trial but also in his book trial. It's much more serious. He Change the narrative. He said he'd been given permission to travel a San Francisco from L. A. When Manson was parole Manson hadn't been given that permission. He just showed up there they originally. We're going to violate them. Send them right back to prison. And someone stepped in and took care of that and let Manson stay in San Francisco and he was assigned to Roger Smith. It took about a year and half through a freedom of Information Act process. I got his federal parole file and those were the kind of seeds of how I found out that Manson had this immunity from prosecution for the two years. He was out of prison from sixty seven until the murders occurred in the summer of sixty nine. Who who I'm sorry to interrupt. But who was Smith doing this for who was giving him the instructions to continue to let Manson out in the community monitoring? Well that's the problem. I didn't get the whole file. And the file got had redaction. He would report to the head office and they would give him instructions and then he would violate those instructions and there'd be no repercussions for him or for Manson for instance Manson was arrested in July nineteen sixty seven three or four months after he got out of prison when he was under Roger Smith Supervision for interfering with an officer who was trying to arrest one of his first young followers with them or a house who is fifteen and he was put in jail. pled out so he got a three day sentence. A new probation sentence as well. And all that was hidden like book The the parole officer. Roger Smith a week later wrote to the head office at Manson was doing fine and he actually recommended that Manson be allowed to go to Mexico and work in Mexico and the head parole office in the United States since it's federal wrote back and they said that's insane. He was supposed the job that he was going to do. In Mexico was surveying soil for inset. Insecticides had nothing to do with all these documents showing the WHO was hiring Charles Manson to survey soil company and Nevada which disappeared a couple of years later so it was bullshit company. I believe so. Yeah they were doing down there that I don't like to speculate. I can't prove it. All I know is just the fact that his parole officer asked to send them not only to Mexico but to the country. Manson had been deported from nineteen fifty nine. The last time he was a free man he had violated his parole then he was arrested in Mexico right. He was arrested in Mexico and brought over by the federalize and given over to federal custody for a drug violation and some other stuff. So why would his parole officer? Send them back to this place three months after he'd been released. And how do you supervise somebody? Who's in another country can make a summary just for people who like what the fuck is going on right now. Essentially what you're saying is that Charles. Manson was a part of some sort of a program and through this program they were using him and using with LSD and all the members of the Family. They were turning them violent. And why do you think they were doing this? I've got a real it in a little I have to be real careful about not saying anything that I haven't been able to prove what I've proven is that he was getting leniency from the federal government and the Law Enforcement I in San Francisco that year the person who represented the federal government. There was his parole officer. Roger Smith the Federal Parole Officer. Who is giving him leniency? Raja was also doing drug research at the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic which opened in June of sixty seven Manson during that period turned into the Manson. That were familiar with today. You know the Monster. The embodiment of evil has been split. Oc call them the guru who could control the minds of these followers so he would come into the clinic to see Roger Well. He went for two reasons. It was a free clinic. It was at the height of the summer of love the summer of sixty seven and He will come in with the women the girls about five or six followers then and they would walk behind him. They wouldn't speak unless he spoke to them. Any command he he issued towards them they would follow and they became very well known around the clinic and they were there principally for Manson to see Roger for his weekly parole appointments and then the girls were going in for STD's and there was some pregnancies and stuff and they were getting free treatment. That was the summer that the Manson family formed and then they left in late. Sixty seven early sixty eight migrated down to Los Angeles and became this killer cult. It's crazy. How quickly this all happen? It's insane so you don't understand we're talking about two years we're talking about sixty seven. Manson is in Haight Ashbury. Sixty-nine Tate Labianca murders and then the trial and then then everything else. Yeah Yeah and so you brought up K Alterra. Yes and K Ultra was a government program. Run by the Central Intelligence Eddie Agency originally started as something called Bluebird nineteen forty eight. Forty nine morphed into artichoke and then in nineteen fifty two became Mk. Ultra was a mind control program a brainwashing program the CIA was trying to learn how to control people's behavior without their knowledge. Now this is all came out and Senate and congressional hearings in the seventies that was exposed but nobody knew about it until nineteen seventy four when Seymour Hersh. The New York. Times reporter reported on the front page of the paper so Their main objective was to commit to create what they call. Hypno- program assassins people who would kill on command Popularly known as Manchurian candidates after a book that was written one thousand nine hundred sixty two and later became a movie and then a movie again. the people would be through drugs and hypnotism the objective was to get people to go and commit an act of murder against the moral code and have no memory of their programming And being music even of the act after the fact often That was just one. That was our main goal but they were also trying to create couriers people. You know military people that they could implant messages send them you know across dangerous areas whether or at that time it was the Vietnam War And deliver messages and then have them wipe from there in case they were captured They had all kinds of objectives. So Roger Smith was Supervising Manson when he became exactly what he was able to do. Exactly what the M. K? Ultra program have been trying to create and do for at that point about fifteen seventeen years when it was all exposed in the seventies and there were these hearings. I The Rockefeller Commission hearings and Church hearings and then finally Senators Ted Kennedy and Daniel Anyway. Held hearings Admitted that they had done this but they no one would say exactly what they did. All the records have been destroyed when the two people who ran it Richard Helms who have become the director of the in the sixties and Doctor Sidney Gottlieb. Who was kind of the mad scientist who Had supervised all the all the they had safe houses and San Francisco New York Los Angeles where they would experiment on people that Lord and into these Apartments and houses that were either look like brothels or Hippie commune's or whatever and the people who are working at the Haight Ashbury free. Medical Clinic was run by another Smith. Which makes it a little confusing. But Dr David Smith who founded it He had given office to a scientist named Jolly West Louis J west. Who was when when the hearings occurred in the seventies identified as a top? Mk Alter researcher. He was an academic Come out of the military have been at the Oklahoma University of Oklahoma University University of Oklahoma. Sorry and then. Ucla running the psychiatric divisions he denied ever being involved in a ultra and this was one of the moments I think it was two thousand and one when things really kind of shook the course of my reporting was I learned that West had been at the same place that Manson was in the Hague in the summer that Manson became exactly what the CIA was trying to create and I knew I'd interviewed West about seven years before for a story. I did about celebrity stalkers people who are obsessed with stars and then only to kill them or try to kill them and he was an expert in violence hypnotism brainwashing and he was the chair of the Psychiatry Department at Ucla. At that point He was dead when his name came up in the Manson story. And there wasn't a lot of I mean I guess it was a lot of Google then or a little bit but when I did a little research I found out that there have been these allegations that he'd been involved in 'em he always denied it. He was never prosecuted. Never even investigated. He went to his grave threatening to sue anybody. That said he would have anything to do with this kind of program again through another long story but I got access to his files which had been left at Ucla and never they had never been processed. When I called and went when I made the request it took two or three months to process the papers. I went through them through the whole summer. Looking for a needle in a haystack and it was intuition gut. I just thought there might be something there and sure enough. I eventually founded. It was correspondence between Jolly West. And Sidney Gottlieb. The doctor that ran on. Koa Ultra beginning in Nineteen fifty-three About Kentucky conducting experiments on people without their knowledge to get them to Have Nugenix Amnesia of the axe after? They were programmed and Everything that he had been accused of and denied he did not only did he do it. He created the blueprint for the whole program with Gottlieb The fact that all these kind of interesting research programs merged at the hate at the clinic and then Manson came out of it with the power to do exactly what. Then Kyle Tra- I've been trying to create for up to that point. I thought was worth investigating further. And that's why it kept going and going and going. They did a lot of crazy shit back then. Are you aware of operation? Midnight midnight climax that those were the safe houses for Cisco that was the Brothel version where they they lured these John's into these brothels dose them up with LSD and studied them. Yeah George Hunter White was ahead. Cia Guy and he would sit behind a two way or one way mirror and watch the the John Does with LSD. They tried aerosols or just drinks different things than they would study their behaviors. Aerosols Aerosol sprays we would get the prostitutes to them no no the prostitutes to get them in there then they go to the bathroom or something. Yeah again the. The problem as the records are so scant. Because Helms Order Gottlieb to destroy all the records in one thousand nine hundred seventy three. When the two men left the agency and the only reason anybody ever discovered that it existed was a whistle blower. Is Somebody who used to work for the State Department who remembered that there were records in a warehouse and they were just financial records from the beginning of the program and fifty two until the end the possible end in seventy three and it was just financial records of where research took place. How much was spent? What kind of equipment was bought but nothing about the content? The guy that found that ended up testifying Congress and working with Seymour. Hersh to expose. It was named John Marks. He wrote the first book came out. In the mid. To late seventies called the search for the Manchurian candidate and after he wrote his book he never you know he spoke Did a little bit of a tour and then retreated into obscurity and never would do an interview again until I approached him in the early two thousands and when I told him what I had what I had found in West file these documents he agreed to meet with me as townhouse in Washington. Dc and. He told me he said the reason. I stopped talking. Writing about this was people. Were camping out on my front lawn. Telling me that they'd been victims of them care alter he goes. I couldn't go anywhere in my whole life. Became crazy because everybody thought that they were subject to this. 'cause nobody knew they did these drug tests on prisoners hospital patients. John's hippies people that had no idea that this was going on for twenty five years. So Mark's became the authority so he had never given an interview till he met with me and when he looked at my documents at that point. I think I had about ten or twelve or fifteen pages that grew eventually because I kept going back to the files in getting more. He said it was the most unredacted uncensored account of what the real objectives were and what was really being done he never he said if I had had that my whole book would have been different So that's one of the problems about saying. How much did they do? Or how far did they go? There's barely any record and that's another reason. It took me twenty years because I was trying to find out Whether or not West had actually interacted with Manson and whether girls I mean I knew he was in the same facility. I knew that everybody that worked there because I interviewed everybody that was ally most of them were still alive back in the late ninety s and early two thousands. When I did this they all said. Oh Yeah Charlie. Was You know we knew it was Charlie and the girls come in every day or every few days to see Roger and West was there recruiting subjects now west. While he was there that summer had opened something called what he called the Haight Ashbury project and in his correspondence and papers that I found he'd call it a laboratory disguised as a hippie crash pad and Jeff and just like the operation midnight Safe how they call 'em safe houses which were disguised as you know and that type of thing. Brothels these this was an apartment that was decked out or is he called a tricked out to look like a communal hippie place he had six graduate students and I have his letters to them before they came to work in this he goes. Grow Your Hair Long. Wear jeans dressed like hippies and lure people in there so they ran that for the summer of sixty seven and West was getting people from that haight. Ashbury Free Medical Clinic on Clayton Street and setting them around the corner to Frederick Street To participate in that Lord and I got the diaries of some of the graduate students who were there and they and they diaries said we have no idea what we're really supposed to be doing here. We feel like this whole thing as a cover for something else. What does jolly want? Why is he making us? Bring these people in so doing that to graduate students telling them to bring people in and drug them up. Imagine telling them well. Some of them might apartment. I'm sure because they were also encouraged to use LSD. I'm sure I mean. Imagine being a graduate student and this is your project on people. I mean that's sets up. Even if you leave that program would go on to do legitimate work. The ethical foundations of your career are set up in such a strange way. You're manipulating people against their knowledge while they didn't know who they were doing it for. That's why they were always questioning. So you know I don't know how I found one or two of them after and they were very careful talking to me. I'm sure that he felt like they were going go to jail. That's the thing If any of these experiments or whatever was going resulted in a death there's no statute of limitations on murder Right I mean. That's one of the biggest disappointments of my book is that people like West aren't alive. You know to answer for that to answer to this and it was really frustrating for me because again his name was on the front page of the New York. Times in one thousand nine hundred seventy seven when they had the major hearings about. Mk Ultra and identified him as the head of the Psychiatry Department at UCLA. Very prominent doctor researcher and he said he had nothing to do with that he never used LSD on humans. And he wouldn't. He said they had asked him and he said No. I have all these letters between him. And the guy who was running the program describing how they're going to do it. Hide it from his colleagues. When he started it he started at Lackland. Air Force Base. He was Running the Psychiatry Department at the hospital there in nineteen fifty two when he was there running that hospital. That's when he started his experiments on prisoners human subjects and one letter to God. Eventually we have to take these experiments out into the field. Oh Jesus exactly does that mean. Well I if you're having gotten to through a chapter eleven yet you haven't gotten to the Jimmy Shaver Que. No I haven't a year after or maybe Jamie did a year after West contract with the CIA to do these experiments July Fourth. Nineteen fifty four Three year old girl went missing from the parking lot of a bar At about eleven or twelve at night and her parents was a heat wave. They couldn't sleep. They went to the bar. They brought their two kids. They let them play in the parking lot at midnight The little girl disappeared. They organize a search party about three or four hours later. They Went to a gravel pit and Two zero two airmen had called her to itinerant guys had called the police the local shower and said there's a guy here that wandered out of the brush with scratches and blood no-shirt and he doesn't know how he got here he is The police came his name. Is Jimmy Shaver? He was an airman. They did a search and they found a little girl's body not too far away and she had been raped and murdered by this guy who had no memory of doing it. The Guy had no history of violence. had a couple of kids and he was a flight instructor at the school. He been in the military for a number of years. It was Zoli Thirties. Well guess who became his Psychiatrists in preparation for the trial jolly west who inserted himself into the case and then extracted his memory from him using sodium pentothal where he admitted to the the murder. Now in the context of what we found out West was doing. What is Jack Lives? Were at that same time. It raises huge questions about this. Was An experiment. Gone wrong you know that. He was part of one of these experiments at Lackland Air Force Base where he was signed up During the trial it came out that he had had treatment for severe migraines experimental treatment at Lackland That's another smaller sub chapter in the book but as it described what kind of experimental treatment he received. No no because nobody I mean I have all the testimony and there was actually a re a trial or retrial and sentencing and every time it came up it was really frustrating because he never testified so they hit. It was either his wife or his mother. Who would talk about? It was mostly as mother saying well. All I knew was they wanted him to be involved in this two year study To try to relieve his his migraines he would have such horrible migraines he would put his head in a bucket of ice water. the people who described encountering him that night when he was arrested and immediately taken of the sheriff's custody by the military police and brought to lackland and then back to the sheriff's He was in a trance The the doctors tested for alcohol because they thought maybe he's drunk. You know just a little bit of alcohol in his system but he wasn't drunk and after the fact they found out that he had. I mean I don't want to get into this because it's really getting into the weeds. But he had hallucinated That this little girl was a cousin who sexually abused him as a child and he was trying to kill her name. Was Beth rain boat. All this stuff came out of the trial jolly West in nineteen fifty. Five sent a report to Sidney gottlieb which nobody had seen and it was another document I found in his files announcing that he had learned how to develop the technology to remove true memories and replace them with false memories and a human subject without their knowledge which was one of the main goals the biggest goals of the program again when the CIA when they had the hearings and the seventies the CIA said. Nothing was successful. Everything we try was a failure. It was a waste of money. We shouldn't have done it And not just be but most experts think that that was a cover that they didn't want to admit they that they had developed these technologies. That were effective. They also claim that they had released everything they had. I found the same report where West said that he had learned how to replace true memories with false ones without a person's awareness But they had removed from the report and then release it to Congress. So that's a crime right there you know so. There's a lot of that stuff in the book. So the speculation is that this guy through these experimental treatments that they'd dosed him up with LSD and experimented using these M. K. Ultra techniques and did that to him and induced. Some sort of. This is speculation. And I'll I'll go there for this. The Guy had no history of violence. never been arrested Stellar upstanding citizen is only problem was he had these horrible headaches. All of a sudden he shows up by a small girl's body who've been brutally murdered with no memory of doing it a year earlier. Dr West who became psychiatrist within a week or two possibly had experiences with them before but there was no record. Oh when I tried to get the record from the Medical Center at Lackland his file that his name was shaver. I think it was a two S. I was missing so we're shaver would have been in the medical records. It was gone so I couldn't find out whether he had actually participated in any kind of experimental program. So is the speculation against speculation that he did commit the crime that he was somehow another induced into committing this crime. Yeah and again. This is speculation. It's completely circumstantial. The objective was against people who will go out and do things not even necessarily killed ultimate goal but to do things against their will against the moral code. Would they know that this child would be there? How would they know she wasn't targeted? So what is it? Just that they put it into his head to go anyone yes something clicked and went wrong. So it wasn't a precise thing wasn't no no. Nobody really knew what else this was the very early days of experimenting with LSD in the early nineteen fifties West was one of the premier researchers in LSD but he was still new to it He had actually come out of here. I gained national attention for being one of four or five doctors who treated Korean prisoners of war who were returned to the United States after they had made confessions of spraying the Korean countryside with illegal biological weapons The United States that we don't use that that's against the Geneva codes And these guys were brainwashed by the the North Korean Chinese Soviets So when they were brought back after the war West and four other psychiatrists were assigned to d program them. What a lot of researchers believe Is that they actually brainwash them into thinking. They'd been brainwashed by the Koreans where they actually were telling the truth. Because there's a lot of evidence has come out as recently as five six years ago that we did you these weapons and Korea. Boy You'll double cross. So what is the speculation that Charlie? Manson was basically just sort of a two bit criminal who had spent most of his life inside the system and had been incarcerated for what half of his life when he was released about age. Thirty two and sixty seven off federal institutions to which was interesting even pointed that out in his book First of all as mother was a prostitute. She kind of she would get sentenced to jail for petty theft prostitution and she'd hand them off to her parents or other people and by the time he was ten eleven twelve years old. He was stealing cars committing petty theft and stuff so then he was sent to juvenile detention centers and schools reform school. It's all run by the federal government and then when he committed his crimes as an adult Which was again car theft. The first Crimes require that but when he stole the cars across state lines so then it became a federal offense and he got a imprison with much more serious sentences if it's a federal offense of state and he do these long sentences back to back to back and then every time he was released he either violates parole probation and they were actually strict with him in the fifty s and early well till sixty when he finally went to prison for seven years. It wasn't until sixty seven when he came out that all of a sudden it was hands off. Now what do you think happened imprison? Did they find him in prison? Well again I'll go there with Ya. Okay and I I kind of what to do in. The book is criticism for this which we knew was good possibility as I lay out. Circumstantial evidence for case with proof of each circumstance. But when you put them all together that's the hardest part is linking them finding the bridges. Okay what I do is show. What the objectives were in either the federal government's case through M. K. Ultra and other programs. Coin tell pro and chaos and the law enforcement's in Los Angeles and San Francisco at the time so k. Alterra began in federal prisons experiments on prisoners. Famously or or notoriously whitey bolger. I don't know if you've heard about this but A few years ago it was revealed. That whitey pulled had been a part of M. K. ultra experimentation in the fifties when he was incarcerated and after he was convicted he was claiming that he believed that all of his violence was a product of what had happened to him in prison when he was experimented upon with LSD through these scientists so theoretically Manson was in the prime place where the experiments where occurring in presence before he was released in sixty seven and federal institutions. They couldn't do it in St Louis. Ever talk about any experiments that took place now. Never no no he he. I actually have a his not only his federal parole file which was the hardest thing to get. That had never been released from sixty seven to sixty nine but I also have the one prior to that from the fifties or the sixties all the correspondence and he would talk about these doctors coming in to examine him and he didn't trust them and he didn't know what they were doing. And this was late fifties And unfortunately he never had the first names for the doctors. There were two one of them was Dr Harman. I can't remember the other one's name. There was a mortimer Hartman in Los Angeles. Who is one of the early psychiatrist using LSD AND IN THE FIFTIES CHARACTER? Who CARRY OUT. Grant was one of his patients So theoretically he could have come out of the program or they experimentation. That began there But you know I hate to even I rather again. It's hard kind of synopsis. All this without showing all the documentation and snuff of what was going on and where he was and how everything matches up but see that when you get through chapter eleven okay so we got to it. But it's a rush to get to that so nineteen sixty seven. He gets out of jail and he. How long before he hooks up with this clinic so he got out in March at sixty seven? The clinic opened in June of sixty seven. So just a few months. Yeah Well Roger Smith he was actually living in Berkeley. Manson was and he got his first follower Mary Brunner and then two or three or four more and then Roger was the one who suggested that he go to the hate to absorb the vibes. He thought Manson might benefit from the love and peace. Fives that were happening. In the summer of Roger Smith was his parole officer in sixty seven but also was pro off before. That was that proven. Well no Roger Smith. Well his assistant you remember. That Gallia told me she was his assistant at the clinic at the Haight Ashbury free medical clinic when he was running his amphetamine study In sixty eight. She said that Roger had told her he met Manson when he was doing probation work. And Illinois in the early sixties I eventually interview Roger Several Times. Roger denied that and when I went back to she was shocked. She's like I can't believe he's denied that that was a connection. He that's why Manson was able to leave Los Angeles. He was sent to Roger Smith so Roger could be his parole officer. I was never able to document that Benson had been in Illinois except for three days for in sixty one. Excuse me in sixty when he was brought from Mexico to Texas and then they brought him to Los Angeles to be violated in front of the judge there And he did spend three days at Joliet prison. Where Roger Smith Work? But he was there a year or two later so that was one of the one of the many frustrating moments where everything made sense except for one but one very important hole. Which was they weren't there at the same time. At least as far as the official record shows so if Smith was a part of these experiments in Smith was also his parole officer and did know him before he did the seven years before he got out. Which is when it's speculated that Manson was possibly experimented on and Smith might have been aware of the entire process of it and was supervising him upon his release. Yeah so that's why everytime Manson got arrested. Which should have just locked him up. They would just let him go. Yeah and Smith I mean to give you a little background on Smith I is. He told me call himself he goes. I was a rap rock Rib Republican from the Midwest and I came out he went to Berkeley to the school criminology. To become criminologist I think sixty five or sixty six. He was getting his Masters his PhD and his special area of study wasn't the beginning. Gangs collective behavior and violence and then how drugs would make some of these gangs that he had people who was working with infiltrates students infiltrate She's getting information. Yeah this is an Oakland and the ghettos in like sixty five sixty six. When the panthers reforming then in sixty late sixty six he decided to become a federal parole officer while he was still writing his dissertation and he Got Assigned to something called the San Francisco Project which was an experimental program run by the federal government to see how different Numbers Parole Clients Caseloads for Parole Officer. Were you know you know supervi- It was about recividism? So if you had the lowest low was twenty clients. The largest was like fifty or sixty. Were you able to super? I mean you would think that fifty or sixty is gonna be a lot more difficult. But it always wasn't so Smith joined that program where he's supposed to be paying much more attention and care to his clients because as part of a special program called the San Francisco Project and in fact he was I mean he was. He was seeing Manson more than he was even officially supposed to things. It gets even crazier After Sixty eight he stopping his parole officer. He was actually removed and he said it was voluntarily so he could focus more on his drugs and violence research at the clinic. Manson's three or four women followers got arrested Mendocino. They had lowered a couple of young boys into a House. Giving them LSD their maths and sent them out up to Mendicino to recruit people for the family. The three women were four. Women were arrested. Mary Brunner had the first baby with Manson and the group and Roger Smith and his wife Carol went up to Mendocino and petitioned the court to take foster custody of the child until Mary was until her case was resolved so they were the foster parents of Manson's son. I mean everything was irregular out this that actually that case is pretty interesting so Mary Brunner and Susan Atkins to women who actually killed for Manson in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine were given. They were convicted of contributing to the delinquency of minors. Illegal drug possession and without a trial. They played out And then there was What they call the sentencing phase. Where a probation officer is assigned to decide whether or not they should be sent to prison or given probation supervised probation. So I got access to their files. Brunner's Atkins and in the file were recommendations to the court by Roger Smith and his wife saying these are good women. They shouldn't go to prison Susan Atkins who stabbed Sharon Tate? And is that proven? She said it. And then yeah yeah proven because Tex Watson clearly was a murder yeah she had said. The text did it. She couldn't do it but this was later on her first. Her first accounts were that she did it. And then when she testified to the grand jury. She said that she didn't do it. She held Sharon while Tex stabbed or later in prison. She said that she did do it. Then she changed again she go back and forth but she was pretty brutal and Mary. Brunner and Susan Atkins were given probation instead of being sentenced partially based on Roger Smith recommendation. Roger Smith identified himself as a former parole officer. You know with this expertise and he said he had known both of them for two years and which was also a lie had only known Susan. He could've known Susan for two years. He knew her for about a year. He did know Mary pretty well. And he never disclosed that he was Manson's parole officer and Manson's identified in these same files as the person who Lord these women into crime that they were his communal wives that they would steal for him prostitutes themselves for him and the other people that they interviewed. The probation officer argued against it. Saying they're going to go right back to this guy who's down in Los Angeles and continue the life of crime but the judge released them now. This was they were doing. Charlie's bidding according to the the record. What they were trying to do was recruit people into the family and so they would offer them drugs and sex and a lot of women and bring them to these parties and where they screwed up is they got an underage boy who was breakout right. And he was the son of share. Yeah turned into snakes. Yeah yeah that's screwed up in that situation and that's how they got arrested that time. Yeah still got released. Yeah which is really crazy. It's like there's so many of these instances where Charlie or members of the family were arrested and then it seemed like the police officers who were holding them. Were being told. Hey you gotta let these guys go yes. This is a higher situations above your paygrade. Yeah well real turning point and my reporting was after I got access to Manson's parole file and saw that and I think describes to arrest that Manson got released on technicalities. You know shoddy police workers when he should have been violated but what he didn't do talk about three or four more and if you've gotten up to chapter ten you know so when. I got this record up a pretty substantial record I took it to. Someone named Luis Walk Neck. Who was a retired judge and retired district attorney from the valley Out around here. Van Nuys 'cause I needed somebody with the expertise and the knowledge of how things worked. Because you have to look at everything in context. Things work at differently today than they did in two thousand and nine or two thousand when I interviewed him but he was there in sixty nine in the DA's office. I brought the documents to him and we laid them all out on his kitchen table. And he's looking at the poor guy was Very sick with cancer and he talked like this but I have the recorder gone. And he's looking at all the documents and he's seeing this pattern of catch released catch release and he's gone chicken chicken chickens shit. This is all chicken shit. He goes he should. He should have gone back the first time he goes. They wanted him out. He said that he was more important to somebody out than in he goes. You've got to find out who it was and I go up. How do I do that and he goes? You're not going to be able to. That's he's an informant. I go but who should I what should I look at? He goes well. He was working either for local law enforcement The federal government the FBI. But somebody wanted him out there doing whatever he was doing so that was important. Another turning point was a bunch of years later was when I brought similar materials. Stephen Kay who was co prosecutor in the case touched up here for a second so speculation. His speculation was that Charlie was an informant. Well again informant has many definitions. It's not just informing on crime. It also can be doing the police's bidding that's the CIA spit with the CIA or the FBI being part of a program right where they're allowing this and also there's speculation that the the goal was to try to diminish the antiwar movement and that this guy was a part of the hippie movement and then so now people associated hippies with violence and drugs and murder and all this stuff. Well I mean Guinness is going into the. We're trying to do it. I know that your podcast longer than most police keep going forever world. You'RE GONNA regret it. You'RE GONNA regret it so it's been a while since I've done. This book came out a year ago. And everybody I mean I haven't been getting the calls. I got when the book came out. So I'm a little rusty. Believe it or not. You're great this is amazing stuff. It's hard to kind of cover all these this ground without sound nuts without giving context. Yes I understand in one thousand nine hundred sixty seven the federal government started the FBI started a program called co Intel pro In San Francisco. They opened their first office the same time. Manson arrived there. The CIA started a program like M. K. Ultra illegal illegal. Because they were violating people's human rights by giving them drugs without their knowledge or consent but they were also operating on American soil domestic soil which is against the law in the United States. You're not allowed to see is not allowed operate. Here they open something. They started a new program called chaos. Same thing they began in San Francisco in the summer of sixty seven authorized by Richard Helms. Who was by? Then the director of the CIA. He'd come up since fifty two working under Allen Dulles and John mccomb and he was the one who supervised Gottlieb and chaos chaos and call and tell pro each have the same objectives which were to neutralize what they believe was a revolutionary revolutionaries that we're going to create a civil war in America. The left wing the antiwar movement the Black Panthers And the hippie movement who kind of embraced it all and this all began in the early sixties with Ronald Reagan had become the governor of California and J. Edgar Hoover was convinced the free speech movement which began in the early sixties and Berkeley had been infiltrated by Communists from Russia and China. And they were trying to create divisiveness within the United States to start a revolution so hoover SORTA CO Intel. Pro and Reagan was involved with that as as the governor and then Helms started chaos and both of them had informants who were trained. They had something called the Hoover Academy where they had Training programs at turn agents into hippies just like jolly who's graduate students. They grew their hair long. They learn the lingo and they went and tried to insinuate themselves with with leftwing groups. African Americans with the Panthers Co Intel pro wood pit rival groups against each other and the ultimate goal was to get them to kill each other and Cohen tells pro is exposed in one thousand nine hundred seventy to one or two. After a bunch of Kind of radical people raided a warehouse in Pennsylvania where they media Pennsylvania not far from where I was raised. Were they knew that the FBI stored records and then they released it to the public and it was the record of this operation and the documents were astonishing because they want redacted because they were stolen and then released There are documents celebrating the murder of one. The panthers became really paranoid by sixty seven. Sixty eight there were all kinds of inner power struggles and they thought thought that they correctly thought that they had been infiltrated. And they suspect and they some of them killed other panthers because they thought they were informants But they also had a rivalry with different groups like in Los Angeles the US slaves which was a militant group and the coin. Tell pro operatives Would let the US sleighs think they were about to be attacked by the panthers and vice versa. And then there'd be a shootout and when Cohen traveled was exposed in the seventies and resulted more hearings investigations. They admitted to being responsible for instigating. I think twenty or thirty killings By THEIR OPERATIVES CHAOS. On the other hand there's minimal records of casts. All we knew was that existed from sixty seven probably till Helms left the CIA in seventy three and that their objective was. We knew that they were doing surveillance. And we knew that they were doing wire-tapping and infiltrating groups but as far as beyond that you can't they can't even name chaos agent. Nobody's ever been exposed because everything was destroyed when Helms left the record so these groups were trying to incite violence. Now we get to the motive of of of the official narrative of the Manson Murder. The Tate Labianca murders which is what the prosecutor events bouillaud see presented a trial. Which was the famous helter. Skelter motive in a nutshell Manson believed that There was going to be a race war and he wanted to incite this race war because he had convinced his followers that through messages he received from the Beatles white album from their lyrics from biblical Old Testament prophecies that He had been told that he was going to be the savior of the world. And once a race war started he would hide his family in a bottomless pit. And the desert and when the race war ended with the blacks winning the plaques will be framed for for murders They would the Manson family would emerge and repopulate the planet with their perfect offspring dominate. The blacks This was Vince. Bugliosi's well heritage or th. There was talk of that. There was a philosophy of helter skelter at the spahn ranch where where they lived in sixty eight and sixty nine that Manson would discuss but whether or not it was the motive for the murders. Is I raise serious questions about that. Book mansard would discuss it in that way that they were going to be a race war and that they would merge and then their offspring yeah except for the fact that What's question so the way I was able to convict? Manson Maxim wasn't at the tate house when the murders happened he had in the official story dispatched Susan Atkins Patricia Krenwinkel? Leslie Kosei Bian and Tex Watson to the House the former House of Terry Melcher. They didn't know who lived there but just to kill everybody and has Manson allegedly said leave. Something witchy he wanted it to look like plaques had killed these all he was they were wealthy beautiful whites and he wanted to ignite the race war because of the panthers got blamed for these motors than the police will crack down to them. They'd revolt the revolution. What happened it would be? It would spread across the whole world and then when it was over and the blacks had prevail. They were too dumb. Manson believed to be able to run the world. That's when he will come out with his followers of their whole in the desert and take over the planet now bully. Oc said in interviews. That I didn't have until after he and I stopped speaking which was when he started threatening me with lawsuits and other things in the about two thousand and six seven I discovered two or three interviews. He gave in the early seventies where he was asked if he believed that. Manson really believed this craziness and Bluesy said. I don't think Charlie believed in it. He got his followers to but he never believed in that he was too smart. He was a con man. What the interviewers did ask him in the follow up was well if he didn't believe it. Why did he send his followers to kill these people? The first night at the Tate House the second night in Los Villas you know upper middle class. Couple OF BIANCA's. Then what was the motive? And that's one of my biggest regrets that I slipped and they were kind of obscure woman a penthouse interview. The other was a regional newspaper. But then I didn't have them. I thought I had done all the research. I thought I read every interview he'd ever given but I didn't habit hand to say all right. I get that because I don't think Manson believed it either. Then what was the motive for the motors? Why were they sent there to kill? And that's what the book explores So do you think bully? Osi was operating with the knowledge that Manson was a part of these programs. Oh that's the big question. Yeah again I laid out in the books I interview. He was the first not the first. But one of the first interviews. I did when I was a magazine. Assignment he invited me to his house. In Pasadena So it was April of of ninety nine. We spent literally six hours together. He was so kind and generous with his time. I thought I scored. I had the prosecutor hadn't given interviews that he always gave interviews about this but he hadn't for a number of years he agreed to do it for whatever reason and join the course of that interview. you know. We arrived at his house and into his kitchen. His wife gave me a tie in cookies with coffee and lemonade. Then he and. I went out to lunch and the Bali somewhere. He showed me some of the sites connected to the murders. Then we went back to the House and talk till sunset and towards the end of the six hours. I did realize that. Even though he was talking nonstop and I'm recording everything he hadn't given me anything new or different. I mean I just finished helter skelter. I read it for the first time. I'd never been interested in the case till I got the assignment so I did what we call the Hail Mary Pass in journalism. Which is you ask someone. If there's anything they could tell you off the record for attribution that will help them to get something fresh because I was still searching for an angle is the first month of reporting and then. Kinda thought a minute. Let's turn it off. Turn it off so I turned off the recorder. And he did I could tell he was debating but then he told me something which. I'm not sure if I don't think I reveal until the last chapter is off the record with relationships. Pretty shocking in the larger PIC picture. It doesn't change anything really but it showed me that. He has a very different account of something very important in the narrative And I took that away and I thought wow I'm going to say I I I. It's it was off the record in two thousand and five when I interviewed for the second time and all things went to hell and he started threatening me and with lawsuits and writing letters to my publisher trying to get them to stop the book. He wrote about what he told me. And he claimed that I had dragged it out of him and embellished and all this but once he put that in the letter the lawyers that the publisher said well. It's not on the record anymore because these documents will all be in a civil trial when he suzhou which she said was about to do not off the record. I mean Yeah. They said now. It's on the rack right. I mean here's violated his agreement with you so what he told me was that Famously an audio or videotape was taken from the State House by the police. Excuse me the first day after the murders. They found that hidden up. In a loft videotaping videotaping videotaping was relatively new at that point. Not a lot of people had cameras but Roman Polanski did and helter-skelter. Vince says in the book that the police took the tape. Viewed it and it was just sharing and Rome and making love and returned to the Law Roman was in London at the time of the murders. He came back immediately and then about a week later he went up to the House and one of the first things he did was he went up to the loft and he never even knew that they took it. Allegedly that that's a story found it and took it. Vince told me originally off the record that the tape wasn't of Roman and Charon making love it was Sharon being forced to have sex with two men against her wishes and he said Rahman was one who was making it because you could hear him in the background You know if you read the pool you've read those chapters Wilmington a lot about stuff to shine. Yeah he see my terrible person his pretty bad. But what do you when you hear what he did. The reason why I can never come back to the country. Go well okay makes sense. It makes sense surprising. A Monster Yeah. I mean it's really good at making movies. Yeah yeah which. We're not going to say anymore. Because the last one he made which is supposed to be one of his. They're not going to release in the United States. But once I had that that's kind of the first rabbit hole. I went down because I'm like well if this was different in the official narrative what else might they have changed so vincent? I were talking on the phone about every week for two months. He was so accessible. So I'd be interviewing people and one of the first things that I found was the perjury's by Terry Melcher on the stand. I found I got access to two separate files and found that Melcher Doris Day. Son Record producer. Young boy wonder who lived in the House with those girlfriend candy. Bergen on Ceelo up until January. First of sixty nine then moved to Malibu and Roman and Sharon moved into the house in February Melchior. Was the part of the motive for why the house was picked and again. This is getting into the weeds. But it's hard to talk about any of this. Without this exposition Manson sent his followers up there to instill fear in Melchor by killing all the occupants of his former house who were strangers to them. I don't believe that that's the official narrative but Melcher testified at the grand jury and then the trial that he had three fleeting encounters with Manson one at beach boys drummer. Dennis Wilson's To there I think and then one there and then to when he went to the Spahn ranch in April and May of sixty nine to listen to them play music with the possible possibility of recording them and he didn't think they were talented enough and told trolley that in so many words and then again. This is the official narrative That's what Manson kind of spiral in one crazy. Because he'd been rejected by Terry Melcher so he decided it was time for helter skelter the race war and again a lot of these things. Don't add up when you step back. Why didn't he kill Terry Melcher at the House and Malibu because he knew where he had moved to? Why did you just go to this other place and kill strangers? Maybe hurry wouldn't connect at all that the bottom line was Terry on the stand and all the official accounts of this case of which there are many not just helter skelter but lots of books. His relationship with Manson ended in May of sixty nine. He said he never saw again. When the murders happened is former house it never occurred to him. It had anything to do with him with Manson. Did it. I stopped believing that a month or two len and then I found these documents showing that Melcher actually had gone to see Manson twice at the spahn ranch after the murders and then once all the way out of phthalate where they had the Barker ranch where they were hiding when they were finally captured in the fall of sixty nine once I could document that that changed the whole I mean it didn't change but impacted. The Motor Melchior was a principal witness again. 'cause Charlie wasn't at the Tate House. Manson has a Bluesy had to convict him of conspiracy and other words ordering people to go up there and kill and he had to have a reason for that house. Oh Terry provided by saying yes I did go out there and try to record them and then eventually in the question it came out but I never had anything to do with them again. I had no idea I never saw him heard from him. Motivation was revenge Terry Melcher because Tom Terry. Melcher didn't turn him into a star right. So this is what does he was using. But it didn't make any sense because Melcher saw him after the murder several times. Yeah and not only even if it makes it didn't make sense you're you're right and that's why. I think I think you could get away with anything. Then because the antics of the family at the trial and everybody was so horrified by what was going on. Nobody was looking at this critically in questioning stuff because every day you know Manson and the girls are getting thrown out of the courtroom for screaming for singing dancing for mocking the proceedings All the state under the radar but once I could prove that maltreat allied and then two or three more than I knew that I had to question the entire narrative so pompeo see started monitoring my interviewing. This is all laid out in the beginning of the book so by the fall of the first year of Ninety Nine. I got a call. From one of my sources Rudi. Altobelli was another important witness. He was the man who owned the House. Where the murders happen. He was traveling. He was traveling actually in Europe with Sharon who had come back about Sharon tape about three weeks before to have a baby And Rudy told me from the very beginning. He was very close to Terry. Dennis Wilson and third guy. Greg Jacobsen Jacobsen was another important witness who lied throughout the whole all of his testimony in the trial to fit a narrative pence needed Rudy had told me that pence called him Excuse me Terry called him. What are you telling this? O.`Neil no one was supposed to know about that. Men's promise me it would never come out so at that point. I knew that I was onto something even bigger. And then I got a call from thence and he left a message on my machine saying he wanted to talk to me. It was important so I called him back and he said you know what I'm hearing. I can't remember who told me that was another little game of his. He would never be flayed trump saying this guy said to me or one of my friends. Are they say Vincent someone told me? I heard that you're questioning my tactics and my choices at the trial. Is that true? You know Tom what's what's going on here. I go well you know. I'm looking at stop and you know you knew where this was going. I mean I know. We haven't taught at that point. We hadn't talked for about six weeks. I think he goes. I want you to assure me that all be given the opportunity to answer any of these questions. He goes because what might appear irregular. You as a lay person can be easily explained by me. I said well of course fence. I'll definitely swing back around to you before because I thought this was going to be out in August and we were in October. I think I go. Yeah Yeah I got it extends well. There are also saying you're doing. It's a book and that you lied that it's not a magazine strike. Oh no no. I'm still getting paid by premier. 'cause I was at that point and I had no idea it was going to be a book because we're still in the first six seven months so at that point we stopped talking. Bendtsen. I and it wasn't until two thousand and five when I got my book deal that I went back to him with these questions and I thought hoped naively that I would get him to break down and say yes. This is all a operation. I was optical God that was stupid but you know I thought what else can you say when I put all this fun him but you know as he must have been really freaked out by how deep you got into this. Yeah well again. You've read the prologue to the book where we open in that scene in his kitchen where he screaming and cursing at me and saying he's going to hurt me like I've never been hurt before. And he's going to sue me for one hundred. I'll hundreds of millions of dollars. It's crazy when you got to the end of the book you'll see the outcome of that day. And what happened when he's begging me. He's saying he'll give me a a quote on the cover my book if. I don't publicist stuff and and then when I wouldn't agree to anything then the lawsuit threat started happening. So I- naively. I didn't think he was going to break down and say I was working for someone else. I had no choice but instead he was evasive threatening screaming. Denying here two recorders two recorders. He's not. He went off the record every two minutes. So we'd have to turn off. All the quarters and bents was not turning. I'm like ventured in Turner's back. You didn't turn it off weight and now that's my record. Now this is yours so women and he's screaming and cursing at me going. Do you have any idea how? Fuck you you fucking put this in your book. And then the records go back on but sometimes they were already on because we couldn't keep up with all the off the record cheese then when I got home that night so I walk out of the House. Six hours exactly almost six hours just like the first time six years earlier. He's grabbing me by the arm of this isn't quid pro quo. This isn't quote but if you don't put this ridiculous nonsense in he. Goes you know a blurb from Vince people always referred to himself in the third person of blur from Vince. Polio's on the cover. This book of no idea what that doesn't I rarely do. I'm very selective. I get asked ten twenty times a day. I mean the man's Egos. You'll see that in the book that I get home that night. There's messages comic comic and he called me. I think it's a week. We can have almost every day the next morning a few days later trying to he would bully me and then he say no. No you know look this is going to do to my family. My kids all that went on and on and on so had to be very excited by that knowing that like this. Oh yeah there's no there's no reason for that guy to react like unless you had them. I know I know and then he knew. Yeah so you're not a year later. He said when we finally he goes at the very the very last phone call which was the week and a half later he goes. So you really gonna go ahead and do it this. Go ahead with Vince. I'm going to report what I have. I go if you want at this point. I had lost the magazine deal it ended. I had sold the book so he knew. I had a publisher. I told them who it was and he asked for my editor's name there. He said because I will be sending them a letter he goes. I will work on this letter for hours. It's going to be a complete rebuttal of everything. You argued the all of your arguments all your points. It's GonNa ruin you. They're gonNA cancel your because they're not stupid so he wrote the letter they got it and I think it was June or July after February of that year two thousand and five and I got a call from my editor. He said you gotTa Talk to our attorneys he goes. We have a letter from fence. I go I told you it was coming. He goes insane. It's thirty four pages single space with fifty pages of attachments and he goes. I've never seen anything like this. So he said talk talk to the attorneys so they sent me over to the attorney and he said my first question. I'd never met the guy before he goes my first question for you. O'neill is is. He suffering from dementia he goes. I was a law student during the trial and he goes. I follow the trial every day in the paper. I've read helter skelter. He was brilliant. He goes. I can't believe the person that wrote. This letter wrote that book. So maybe you were dealing with somebody who is impaired. I said he's mentally ill and a lot of that in the book He. It's not the match I go. He's finishing his magnum opus. A twenty year effort to write a book of rebutting the critics of the the Warren Commission about the Kennedy assassination. I always got a book coming out a tour and sure enough he wrote. I think two or three more books after that I go. He's just I caught him. He goes all of his arguments. Don't make sense. He's contradicting himself. The letter goes off in directions. It sounds like it's written by a madman I go going to inhibit us he goes. Oh No we're we're opening the champagne here. I mean he wouldn't write a letter like this unless you got. Fifty pages of attachments was the first letter then about six months later another letter. I think there were four. Total I quote some of them in the book it was knots and unfortunately he passed away in two thousand fifteen or sixteen and I get a lot of criticism. I mean. Get it from when he died I think seventy four or five. It was cancer. I know he was sick off and on for a couple of years but I've been accused by critics of not publishing the book until he died because of these threats. Not I wanted him to be alive. I wanted him to be accountable and have to answer to all this. The reason I didn't publish it when I was GONNA publish it was penguin. My publisher cancelled by deal in two thousand eleven and then sued me for a return of the advance which cripple I couldn't. Why did they do that Well the book was originally in Two Thousand and eight and then I'm not good with the deadline that out. It's a great book even if it took you twenty years to ride it. Yeah no I mean they. They extended it and then in two thousand and eleven. They lost their patients. And I it was a surprise. 'cause I I knew that. The editor and the publisher Penguin Press the imprint. Who Very serious publishers? Very well known. I knew I thought that they believed in me and understood why was still taking long so when I got the call it was devastating and then even worse is the year later. My agent got served with papers and they took me to court never got to court. It was resolved but they sued me for my advance which was substantial. And I'm not allowed to say anything except that it was resolved because there's nondisclosures but let's just say you've I mean you putting me on here and they advanced stuff you help the cells and still not making money because a lot of people So that was crushing and it held up the book because we couldn't take it out and try to resell it until it was resolved took about a year and a half to two years to resolve the lawsuit. I luckily I got a pro. Bono lawyer busted broke And then once we resolve the lawsuit was about two thousand sixteen seventeen then we could take it out but we weren't sure we were going to be able to sell it because it had this bad history trailing so from two thousand eleven two thousand sixteen. It's in limbo. Well it is except I. I worked just as hard every single day and then I was involved with a director and I kinda hinting. The book who it is but I mean. I don't think it's a secret errol Morris. Do you know who he is He did Thin Blue Line Bob. Okay Yeah He's won an Academy Award for documentary made about Robert McNamara. So THEY WANNA make a book about term Errol Air Mars. I think you had a son on Hamilton. The size. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah Well Hamilton. He wasn't officially part of this project but he came to the shoots errol approached me. He actually is a writer for Penguin. Press an author. He writes books too. not too often but occasionally and he knew about my book because they had asked him at one point he wanted to collaborate on it with me when when. I was struggling with it and he said no. I WanNa make a movie about it. And they said it's not a movie. It's a book maybe after so what my deal got cancelled and I was in limbo. I thought why can go to now. I'd never met him or spoken to him but I sent him. An email got his email address and he called me the next day and he goes. Are you kidding me he goes? I've always he goes out with fat because he got my proposal. He said I was so fascinated by this story. And I've always wanted to do something on both Manson and K Alterra so it took about six months of legal stuff because since my book was still owned by Penguin but the suit was happening and he helped this process he got them to allow him to work with me on what became an was going to be a Netflix series. He sold he. He shot What do you call it a teaser? So he spent two days and this was two thousand fourteen with me. One day at my bungalow where he wired it with like fifteen cameras on remote cables and the ceilings and then interviewed me all day At the house at my house and going through all my files and everything and then the next day his crew took half of my apartment to a sound stage in the valley somewhere and recreated my apartment but then he used all his magical tricks like you had a camera two hundred feet in the air zoom down and spend. It was beautiful what he ended up cutting and putting together And then in twenty fifteen. He changed what he wanted to do with. The documentary was gonna be a six hour series. He had sold it and I had never signed the final contracts because I said L. You GotTa give me a clearer picture of what this is a one point. He decided he wanted to do the story of Frank Olson with my story and Frank Olson. Sons Eric's pursuit of his father's a possible murder by the CIA nineteen fifty four because of what he had found out about the Korean Powell biological stop. That became warm word which I don't know if you saw. It was a Netflix series. About two years ago. It's the last thing aero second. The last thing I did it was his first six part series. That happened because I backed out. When you know I didn't like the direction it was going so airline. I fell out Over that we're still friends. And he gave me some pictures for the middle of the book from the shoot And he did just just Frank Olson and Eric's pursuit of it so that took up like a year and a half of Working with him and his people to develop it and then it all stopped and I actually walked away from money. That would really help me. But I I was willing to give him control. But I didn't like where it was going and I had already invested sixteen years of my life at this point and I just I can't. I can't do this. You know I still need this to be my vision. Not Somebody else's and he was pretty upset and pissed off But he. He met another good series. That you know evolved out of my project and and at that point of was about to fifteen sixteen. I just kept reporting and working to get the lawsuit resolved and then as soon as it did My agent took took it out and he said before I take out this new proposal I gotta collaborate or Dan Pipe and bring young Had started working with prints on Prince's memoir and then prince died in the middle of it and because once prince was dead. All this stuff had to be settled with his estate and had like a year of not doing anything so our agents were the same agency. They put us together and I I. I was apprehensive because he was like twenty nine. He wasn't even alive when this happened. I thought what is this kid going to know about this case and all of this stuff that cortel Pro Kasim calcium enough to teach them so much. That's going to take a year. But the when I met him and I saw the writing here done before. I'm like this guy is perfect and he was so we turned it out in a year. We took it out and and Sloan my agent said. We've got a Senate to penguin I because we still have that resolution. That hasn't been resolved. It's all agreed to but we have to finish what we have to do so they need to know about it. They saw the new proposal and made us an offer for the book. That Larry I know after suing me and trying to I mean doing everything to ruin my life they may I offer. And it matched the publisher. We want with little brown and I said Gosh. I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say. Don't get in trouble. Yeah let's just say I said if they just give me a little bit more than little Brown's offering I'll go with them because it was the same people and they knew everything I wouldn't have to educate little and they wouldn't an ice screw you guys. I'M GONNA go a little brown. I'm really happy. With what Little Brown did. Well that's a crazy route to get a book out. Yeah I mean what was what did it feel like when you got this like in your hand on the bookshelves must have been like. You gave birth like a giant baby. I don't want to be over dramatic but I kind of spent twenty years of my life doing nothing. But investigating this and trying to bring it to fruition and there were so many setbacks and so many times that I was broke and My reporting had had a wall and I found out I had wasted three months pursuing one angle that ended up not holding up at some point. I thought what else can I do now? In good faith knowing that all the stuff. I've done up to this point is in the gutter you know in the garbage. I can't let that happen and I knew I had really important discoveries I mean. My problem was putting them all together. In a cohesive way with final answer and my agent at started telling me around to the mid two thousand and you don't have to have resolution you don't have to have a perfect beginning middle and end you've got so much important stuff you've uncovered about not just the murders and the trial and the corruption in Los Angeles but the federal government Jolly West. I'm Kate Altar call and tell all of this stuff he goes. Just put all that out there. You know And I never really believe that and when I finally said well I can't. I'll do the rest of my life. Have nothing when I made that decision and then took on this. Dan My collaborator. And we literally turn it around in a year. It was like a dream you know and then when the book was when I first got the galleys my house and then the hardcover you know a few months later it my shitty apartment and mid city that I couldn't believe it and I thought right now I can get run over by a bus. I don't care because there's a document it's out there now. I don't care what happens to me and it's kind of given me. It gave me a freedom because now that I've done it and it's you know on bookshelves or wherever I go on with my life I had hoped to go on with my life without ever having to think about this again but then of course after you get calls you get emails from people who have information. There's so much stuff. We had to leave out of the book. It's pretty long so a lot longer than they originally gave us. And then I was telling you few days ago they were only going to give me ten pages and notes. You know that we show all your sources at the back of the book and I fought for more and I got sixty and you know that's the most important part of the book because it shows every single document where to get it where I found it I You know add a little bit more information about why you know why it's important With all that out there. Now it's like I feel like I don't ever. I don't really need to do anything ever I want to. I don't know I mean the guy they are. Now that was Jamie was telling there's a guy adapting at for Amazon Studios So it could become a film who knows what's going to happen. Especially where a series on Amazon we wanted I wanted to limit scripted. I wanted a documentary too. You're about a film is. This is such a long story. I would hate to see them. Butcher it will you. You have friends at Amazon. Will you please call? I don't know that's by the way they're not gonNA listen to me. Somebody what you do but you're going to butcher it. They're going to butcher it. Yeah no I mean I wanted it to be a limited series. That's the way to go and we made the deal with them. They actually bought it before the book was written. They got a copy of the proposal that we submitted to a couple of publishers with nondisclosures they somehow got it. Amazon and made us an offer and this was when I was really really broken. Twenty seventeen before I mean I got a little advance from little brown. But let's just say a lot of that had to go to some other people that I owed money to so My agent basically said you know bottom line is Amazon's GonNa do a great job. Whatever they do with it and we can't get them to commit to limited series or feature and they're leaning towards the feature. If you want to say I'll only do it. If it's a limited series you're risking losing it. I would say go for it. And then hopefully when they get this massive book. They'll say oh it has to be a limited series They didn't you know and the gossip really still trying to do feature. Yeah Amazon please. Yeah the guy who's doing it so. He came to spend a week with me about an October before he began writing and he's an established guy. Smart good done a lot of films and he's like Oh my God now. I know I took you twenty years. How am I gonNA fit this into two hours? You can't make. That's what I said to him. I go will you go to trust you hear this? And maybe they'll listen because I think this can be a spectator and I'll help you get put this together. Put It on Amazon. Have People in here. I'll promote it. I think this is amazing stories crazy. Yeah it's crazy and I think it's also a really important part of human history. Imagine if the whistle blower had not come forward and we didn't know about Mk. Ultra and all those documents didn't get would they didn't find the warehouse where the documents just imagine we would have known about like nobody in the program as ever come out and talk about it. I mean I went to a couple of guys who are still alive. Wouldn't talk to me. Of course I mean they always fall back. We sign an oath with the agency. If we to you without permission and they're not gonNA GIVE US permission. We could go to prison to some mansion. What life must have been like for them knowing that this is what they were doing to people. Oh Yeah it's so that's such a strange way to also. These people are agents for the federal government. I mean what kind of precedent does establish well most of the people doing the research where subcontracted researchers at medical personnel prisons and in the case of Jolly West. He was first in the air force and then he was in university settings and jolly was once it got to University of Oklahoma. He was experimenting on patients and in one of his letters to gottlieb asking for more funding. He's saying working with psychiatric. Patients actually benefits us. Because people can't he I'm not quoting directly here. He was making the argument that they're weird. Behavior wouldn't be noticed by anybody and the hospitals because their psychiatric patients so these people are getting LSD which is pretty powerful drug and other drugs he was using and he was hypnotized them and some of many of his experiments without without their knowledge and their psychiatric patients. I mean it's worse than Nazis. Your mind is the next most important thing besides your soul and they're tampering with it. You know one of jollies colleagues. The Guy who actually took over the department when in sixty nine came out to ucla from Oklahoma Said to me because I again I would do this with people. I would show them all the documents and he said he always was one of his best friends. He'd known them for forty five years when West died in ninety nine he but he said to me Jolly it doesn't surprise me that he would have done this. This is the Jack Ruby stuff which I guess you haven't gotten to yet and Jolly Jack Ruby psychiatrist. Oh Jesus a whole that makes sense to right. Yeah Jack Well Actually I won't spoil this vote of Jack Ruby out in the hall of Breast. Yeah yeah well you'RE GONNA get to about thirty or forty pages on Jack Ruby and Jolly West. I I just. I don't WanNA spoil it for you or for the listeners. If they haven't read the book yet but Chali West inserted himself into the RUBY CASE AFTER. Ruby was convicted of shooting and killing Oswald in the spring of sixty four before he was going to testify to the Warren Commission. He had never told He had never testified at his trial about why he killed Oswald. His defense argument was that he had epilepsy and he had an epileptic fit and shot him and was Abd knee-jerk of the of the shooting. Holy Shit Yeah so fits right into the narrative leg key. Well this gets better so WEST INSERTS AND COLLECT. Microphone out towards your face so you get into this. Yeah yeah move so west. Inserts himself into the case gets assign through his connections to Ruby's new lawyer Uber Winston Smith. Who's a whole other kettle of fish but anyway goes to the Dallas County jail in? I think it was April of sixty four to examine RUBY IN PREPARATION FOR NOT Warren Commission testimony which he was giving in a couple of months before his next trial because he had gotten a new An appeal for a psychiatric review and West. Who had told Sidney Gottlieb in these early letters from the fifties that part of his experiments were inducing insanity and a person without their awareness west coast to examine ruby emerges from the county jail. And there's press waiting for him and he announces that within the preceding forty eight hours Group had had an a psychotic break that was irrevocable. Paul couldn't he couldn't return to sanity. He had audio and visual hallucinations. During the exam he said Ruby hid under a table because he thought there were people in the room trying to kill him told West that he could hear children screams outside his jail cell as Jewish children has they were boiled alive and West. Said he's completely insane. That was the day I mean. There was no evidence of Ruby being mentally ILL PRIOR TO WEST EXAM. Twist was along with them in the cell and then treated him for about six months when Ruby finally gave his testimony to the Warren Commission. So ERLEWINE Chief Justice Warren. Who was head of the commission flew down to Dallas with Gerald Ford who was In Congress and on the Commission and Arlen Specter the young Arlen Specter who was an investigator for the war commission who eventually came up with it. The magic bullet theory He called it the magic bullet conclusion. Anyway the three of them You know put Ruby. Under oath and Ruby babble was incoherent grabbed Arlen Specter. Who was like Ken Jewish? And he said don't you know they're killing Jews and and they've killed my brother and cut off his legs. I hear them being tortured outside my so. They couldn't use anything west. That was one of his objectives in his research was to make people induce insanity without a person's awareness. Was there any contact with Jack Ruby? Before he killed again. That was one of the things. I can't tell you how hard you know. Oh you mean bless you mean western anyone that could have done something to get to kill Ruby Ruby. Ruby had a lot of Connections to organized crime and federal he was part of which later merged the anti-castro Cuban effort to overthrow Fidel Castro. Which was ron was operation Mongoose by the CIA? It wasn't new illegal. Assassination Program Ruby. Deny being in it. And that's in the book. I found out that again through west papers that I got access to Ruby. Admitted never that he stalked and killed Oswald on the orders of anyone but that he was working with these people were suspected of being involved in the assassination if there was a conspiracy and he had never admitted that to anyone. It's only in west file and West withheld that so let's break that down so for people that don't know the the primary theory of who was responsible if there was a conspiracy to kill candidate in one of the thoughts was that it had to do with some sort of a C. I a. operation to overthrow Castro while there was so the Warren Commission concluded that Oswald acted alone. There was no conspiracy Alan Dolls Dulles the former head of the CIA who was fired by John F. Kennedy Was second in command Judge Warren on the Commission. Richard Helms who was actually Jolly West employer for cal. Tra was the liaison between the CIA and the commission so Helms knew that Ruby who? They called their most important witness in their investigation. The Warren Commission investigation because he was the one who silenced the killer. There could be no trial for Oswald because he was dead so they tried to learn everything they could about a ruby to see if he had had any meetings with Oswald prior if he had connections beyond the superficial ones to organized crime was there. Something deeper The commission which I believe was a joke from the beginning it was set to determine I mean they said in the beginning their objective was to prove that Oswald acted alone They came up with that conclusion. But after the first intelligence Senate intelligence hearings in the in the early seventies that expose them K. Alter chaos coin tell pro primarily the church hearings they found out that dollars and Helms and others had lied about the CIA's involvement with Oswald and with their own agents who had had these peripheral. We don't know if they were peripheral. Not but definitely encounters with Oswald. They withheld all that so the House voted to have what they call the house. Select Committee on assassinations. That began in seventy seven in seventy eight. They released their report which they concluded. There was a probable conspiracy to kill Kennedy. That as well didn't act alone and you know it's there's lots of books about that and in their findings and then later the to the head of the committee Robert Blakely wrote a book where he said that that Ruby had acted on behalf of The conspiracy to silence Oswald that he had stalked him premeditated the murder and the whole thing was part of of keeping the secret. So was west. A part of that you know again. I can't prove it. I wanted to find out if that had any encounter or any interaction with Ruby prior to ruby committing. The murder. Couldn't find that and that's the kind of thing that maybe there's no evidence. Maybe it happened but there's no evidence but I wasn't gonNA put it in the book and Exhausted every resource. Had you know because that one has always been so puzzling for me? Because here's this guy that's not connected to murder allegedly and then steps Ford and shoot Oswald in front of everybody. Yeah scenting himself I mean like there's no doubt about it and you're the guy who did it. Yeah everyone saw take. You're going to go to jail forever. Would you do that well? The first report which was Fabricated BY HIS FIRST LAWYER. Who admitted this years and years later he told Ruby to say he did it to spare. Jackie Kennedy from having to come to Dallas for trial of Oswal. That was made up. And then Melvin. Belli I was assigned to the case Was I mean where we fired three lawyers in the first couple of weeks? The Mel Melvin Belli took over and took it to trial and his argument was that he had had an epileptic fit and didn't know what he was doing and when he was grabbed by the cops after he shot while he said. Hey I'm Jack Ruby. What am I doing here? What are you doing to me? Don't you know who I am? Because he knew all the cops My argument in my book is important. My most important finding is that a CIA contract agent or researcher for mind control became the most important witness to the Warren Commission. He became that witnesses doctor right before. He testified and told his story. I go that should have been disclosed. Obviously to the commission but they're not going to say because it's a secret program and then he goes crazy and then he goes crazy I got told by a couple of the people who were Nobody on the commission would talk to me. That was alive when I started pursuing them Jolt Ford wouldn't talk to me Island doctor I think I mentioned to you before there's an interesting. I approached Arlen Specter. Who was running for reelection. This two thousand and two and told him I had new information and he had he had always maintained. You know he was he he. He made a lot of money off of his books about Justice and he and the magic defending his magic bully bullet theory. He always said if anybody comes to me with new evidence. I'll look at it with an open. Mind so I had sent him a persuasive letter while his people They finally said all right. If you have these documents showing that this doctor who treated Ruby you know within the twenty four hours. He lost his mind Specter will look at them and then decide if we'll talk to you facts onto us at that point. That was two thousand two lost the magazine story and I didn't have a book deal sales and operating entirely on my own. I said I can't send this stuff to you. Because my smoking gun the letters between got leading and West describing all the experiments so finally Spector agreed to talk to me on the phone for a few minutes and it was amazing he called me from the Senate floor while they were waiting to vote on whether or not they were going to invade Iraq. This is two thousand and two. Oh Shit so we were only supposed to talk for a few minutes and when I explained what I had and what it showed West. Had you know been involved with at the time he treated. Ruby. He said well. If you're not going to send the stuff to me I don't know I need to see it and I go. I can't send it to you. And he said well you. WanNa meet me. Because I told him I was in Philadelphia visiting my folks and he he was from Philadelphia to he says. I'm there on the weekend on meet you Saturday. I have squash game at the Wyndham hotel. Meet me they're priced squash so we had a meeting set up For three days later. And this is something. I'm always second guessing about. I made a decision. I don't think I got to. I think I've ever really got paranoid during this. But Spector had been a long term senator. He was running for re election and it was the first time in his career at the polls were against him that his opponent was A. They were predicting that he was gonNA expecter was GONNA lose He had also defended this magic bullet theory forever. I mean more people for the Kennedy assassination than anything else. I thought so if I do meet with him and Sean these documents maybe it was grandiose to. I thought he's going. Oh my God. I need to be part of their exposure because if he didn't and walked away from it. I thought they were important enough that he would know that that you know once. They were publicized and he had the opportunity to say. Hey we need to look into this. And didn't he would look bad and then I thought well maybe he's GonNa. He's either going to use it for to get publicity. Have a press conference and help him in his reelection or he's going to use it to be the hero of it and run with it before I published a book and then I'll just be a footnote to all this because he took it so I cancelled the meeting. The morning up I called up his press secretary And his cell phone the three phones I had for him and I said you have to tell Senator Specter. I am so sorry but there's an emergency. I've got to go back to Los Angeles. I actually was scheduled to go the day after on Sunday. So it's a lie and I didn't talk to anyone. I just left the message and I said I'm so sorry but obviously I've worked so hard to get this meaning. It's embarrassing but I have to go back so I left my parents place to go to the post office. Because I had been there for three months I was actually writing the first version of the proposal at their place to get away from my friends. And all the distractions in L. A. And I was only gone for like fifteen minutes ago. Model that press secretary calls. I told them I was leaving. So tell him that I just went to the airport and I and I apologize and she was. I can't lie to a press secretary. I got to go to the post office and I come home fifteen minutes later. She's like as white as a ghost. I go what she goes. Senator Specter called me and the prospect because he called himself. He wanted to know what happened. Why you changed your mind and why you were canceling and I had to lie on. I don't I go but I I do the senator you know he was a big deal. Pennsylvania back then so. I don't know if that was a mistake. On my part I think you know twenty twenty hindsight. I should have done it and taking my chances I did go os. What would have done. I know that's a very powerful man. And if he thought that he was in danger include a fucking driven off a cliff. I never I mean. I really didn't try to think through all those years thought like that when it comes to Arlen Specter I mean. Do you know how deep guy had to be in on that to come up with that. Wacky iron a magic theory so the fact that that actually gets debated and the fact that never gets brought up. There were more bullet fragments in Connelly's body than they were missing from that bullet and the fact that anyone who knows anything about guns right any anyone has ever shotgun. Seen what a boat went bullet shattered bone? And what it looks like would look at that fucking bullet and think that bullet went through to human beings right right and the fact that the reason why they had to make up this theory in the first place was because a guy was hit by a ricky. Shay on the underpass. Yeah no the whole story behind that. Well here's what I did. I tried not to glues myself any more than I had two in each compartmentalize area into so with the Kennedy assassination. I just did a superficial because like Manson. I was never interested in any thing. So-called conspiracies. Yeah I'd never cared about Kennedy orb John F. Kennedy assassination. Once I found out that West was connected to ruby and again that was a moment that I was like. Oh no I mean it was west in the CIA and then I'm like and Ruby. How can I not look at the Kennedy assassination so I kept? My focus narrowly just on Ruby. Oswald West Spector. I looked a little bit of the Magic Bulletin agree with you but I never did a deep dive and a lot of that stuff. Well they had come up with that theory because there was a guy who has hit under the underpass He was hit by a bullet hit the curb and the apiece of the curb. Hit him so he had been injured and they recovered. That bullet realize that had been shot that had hit that area and so then they had to attribute all of those wounds to one bullet right so they had different bullets. They had the bullet that was the head shot. They had the bullet that hit the curb. And then all the other injuries had to be attributed to one bullet. Yeah not only that. There's a different description of the frontal shot there's a shot when Kennedy Kennedy grabbing his neck. Right well in the hospital in. Dallas it's described as a frontal shot when they fly the corpse to Bethesda Maryland. They describe it as a trick whole. Yeah I've read. Some of that is so much for so much the missing brain. Yes and then on top of that. The bouillaud see writes a book. I know justified findings of the Warren Commission. There's a great book called Best evidenced by David Lifton and. That book got me down a dark road when I was in my twenties. That's what got me really freaked out about conspiracy theories in the first place because I I always thought that conspiracy theories were for dull minded. People that didn't spend much time thinking or reading You know they just like the the like to think that there was a bunch of people controlling everything. Yeah well then you find out about M. K. Ultra operation midnight climax. And all this different Shit. You abo-about this is real. This is definitely real. Like what makes sense like there's video footage of believe it's I think it's INC British soldiers with a dose them up with acid and sent them out into this field. Have you ever seen that? I've seen that you can find that Jamie there's Video footage of soldiers on acid in. This is archived footage of Black and white. They did experiments on these soldiers in the nineteen fifties. They'd been doing it for a while. Once Hoffman had figured out how to make LSD and they realize what it could do to people here it is watch following nineteen sixty four experiment testing the effects of LSD on British marines. He could see it. You don't have to turn around to. It's on the screen right here. So this is an what did say nineteen sixty two sixty four sixty four December of sixty four so these guys are All wandering around on acid and so they they dostam up and then they send these poor fuckers out in the field and they're just freaking out they don't know going on. Where did you find this? Oh this is online. Yeah Yeah you could you could. It's on it's on Youtube but look at these guys just laughing and these soldiers lying on the ground laughing hysterically Kevin. There is and it's all archived footage. Wow I don't want you to play now service or is it all silent? Don't remember any volume. They're climbing trees and show. Yeah so this is archived foot. Yeah right this is. They knew what they were doing to these people and then they filmed them and this is what they got from imperial wars even London original footage. Well if we're films like that from our government you're not going to sale them. Of course they were if they weren't a story they're locked up. I mean that was another big eye opener for what's kept from us at one point in two thousand eleven. I had a researcher at the Washington. Post a woman there who has been there for years. I could get myself in trouble for this to. I won't say her name but anyway she's very well known and she's their intelligence Researcher she works with all the reporters at the post on intelligence stories national security stories and she had a someone at the Cia in their information department who will confirm or deny stuff with her and she said I completely trust these people working with them for ten years all. Ask them about Jolly West and see what they have on them. And I said all right before you ask them. Don't tell them because she had the documents. I share them with her. Don't tell them what I have proving that he was part of them. Kale to just say you're working with an author on a book who wants to know whether there because I already done a request and I got an. We can neither confirm nor deny and she said they don't they'll tell me the truth like they're not GonNa give me a neither confirm or deny we'll we'll just say we have something and we can't tell you if we can we have nothing But we'll get the truth and see what they have so a week later. She lets me know and she said they said there's nothing. He never participated in the program. There's no record and I go well. I don't want to say her name. I go well. I don't think he should be using them anymore. Because they're not reliable. And you know that because you've seen the documents so she had to rethink that. I don't know you know what she did after well. That's that's the way they can embed themselves with reporters by letting off. I'm your friend. I'll tell you the truth right. Okay this is. It's a complicated world. We'RE GONNA keep people safe and sometimes you got a crack a few eggs to make an Omelet. Don't worry I'll let you know I'm your friend. Don't worry if there's some wacky nece I'll tell you that's hilarious. Yeah and then I said to her ask about a a reports and we've even discussed rewards and he's the guy that claim to it. He had infiltrated the Manson family You haven't gotten to that chapter. No no is that after eleven. How many chapters are ther thirteen including the epilogue? Yeah Yeah Health Book Yeah I mean there were a lot of spooky people in and around the Spahn ranch in and around the family and this one Guy Rave Whitson who was a spook and unfortunately it was dead. By the time I started. Refer people. Don't know spook is yeah. People don't know what that means. I didn't know what it meant before I started. I don't I mean maybe if I thought about it but I wasn't interested in strange terminology. I know it's like a ghost them. There's no trace no record and this guy that's how he lived and I had found out about him in my reporting I I got to his attorney and then to some of his close friends he lived in Los Angeles and then he disappeared for months. doing undercover work on. He said we never. He wouldn't even tell us who he worked for but his wife and daughter who were in Sweden's and other people who said it was the CIA. He told before he died in the couple years before his death three or four of his closest friends including attorney that he had worked on an operation and he wouldn't tell them who but he had infiltrated the Manson family prior to the murders and it was his dying regret was. He could have prevented them but didn't he also said that he was at the crime scene after the killers had left but before the police had arrived which was like four or five hour window And I was able to confirm not that he was there those five hours but that he was missing and the police set up a watch at his father's house who he was living with the try to figure out what was going on. He ended up helping Colonel Tate. Sharon Tate's father who left his job in military intelligence to help police in the investigation. Even just like a hippy. Right you dress up like a Hippie and soda read and re was a really hard core right wing guy. I mean he was racist and has daughter sent me pictures of him and she said once he dies in fact. This is how serious guy was. He read divorced his wife who was a Swedish Model I e sent her and his infant daughter back to Sweden from the United States in sixty one because he thought there was going to be nuclear war And then in the mid sixties he told his wife he had a divorce or and he couldn't have any relationship with his daughter because his daughter was his only vulnerability because of the work he did. That was behalf. They heard even if they live all the way in. Sweden so the daughter Liza who have never met but we started talking on the phone and she started sending me materials. Didn't meet him until a couple years before his death he reached out to her said. I couldn't have any relationship with you because of my work. I want to do that now. So he flew to Los Angeles introduced her at all of his friends and after he died she went to his apartment and went through his things and found a picture of him dressed. Up as a hippy. It's in the book and and I mean it's hard to tell but it's a parking lot and the cars are all like late sixties models so again. This is one of the parts of the book where I worked so hard to try to prove a definite link. I interviewed probably twelve or thirteen. Manson family members and I'd show them that picture and they'd say he looked like any number of guys that they came in and out of there. They come for a day to screw us. Women would say Charlie would bring guys in and we didn't know if they were the ones who are providing drugs or who they were but yeah maybe or maybe not you know and they were all high most of the time to think that. Charlie's ability to constantly get out of jail also must have added to his delusions of grandeur. Felt like he was above the law because he really Kinda was yet wouldn't go to the spahn ranch he would threaten the he'd say. I've got guys in the hills with guns pointed at you. Yeah and that's all on the book and I've got the docket In the notes he would give he would give everyone acid and then either take a very low dose himself or not ten. Yeah so do you think that this was something obviously. We're in speculation again but something that he learned how to do from Smith. That's the question. What what David Smith and Roger Smith were looking at was personality change lasting effects of LSD on the personality and especially David did something he call it. The psychedelic syndrome. He did this study. He was the one who ran the clinic. And basically gave Jolly Watson Office at the clinic to recruit people in the summer of sixty seven and then Roger he Gave Him Office Space There to Kentucky? He called the Amphetamine Research Project and sixty eight and sixty nine at the period that he was still you know he was. They call them the friendly fed in the hate because everybody knew he was a federal government person but he grew his hair longer and grow a moustache to try to blend in but everybody thought he was dark and I guess he was but David's line of work After his mice research which people can read about in the book and Mice and violence Was trying to figure out why some people were more susceptible to LSD And having a personality change they were doing. They would screen people that this was volunteer testing allegedly For personality traits. They were trying to find out whether people have precipitating factors in their subconscious. They were actually doing zonal studies to taking blood and saying how the LSD affect the chromosomes. Why some people would after one trip have a complete ideological Change they would go from being. You know normal teenagers or twenty year old so all of a sudden believing in mystical stuff and losing the ego and all kinds of stuff that Manson was trying to find when he was attracting followers. Who are more susceptible who were more successful and that was the research that they were doing that the clinic at the time. Another finding in the book and I wasn't the first one to find it but I found more evidence of it. The Clinic Famously opened it was nonprofit and it was funded by the government and David. Smith admitted that he took funds. And that's one of the reasons he gave. He told me he gave jolly in office. There was jolly was well known in the research community. He knew that jolly would attract government funding but they were only supposed to be a service to runaway kids and hippies and people who couldn't afford healthcare. They weren't supposed to be doing research. They weren't supposed to be doing experiments but they are The entire time so it was it was sold as a nonprofit healthcare facility wouldn't was actually a research center for the Federal Government and this is interesting and this could you know people might think I'm crazy but it raises questions. My book came out in June last June of Twenty nineteen. The clinic was opened from June of sixty seven closed in September of last year I think was it shuttered stores for the first time in fifty no fifty two years three months after you came out and that's one of the biggest disappointments of the book is because I couldn't answer the question the the largest questions I could only present a case for why it sure looks like it might have happened this way that way the other way. I was hoping that it would be kind of a call to Action. You know that other people would pick up the ball and run with it you know and again maybe it was my eddie my grandiosity the second man. It took you twenty years on a rush for these people to take the ball. I wanted some serious journalists especially in the cities where these things took place. I mean I expose pretty serious corruption and the DA's office in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine and one of the until the OJ. Trial the biggest trial in the history of the United States. You know the one that got more coverage than any other trial until OJ. And I can prove that. It was fixed from the very beginning when they switched the lawyers and planted evidence and perjury and stuff like that. A former prosecutor in charge of Sharon tate or excuse charged with turn and they fired her illegally appointed attorney someone who play ball. Yeah and they went to a judge who was complicit who agreed to this and I found all these documents in a file that I wasn't supposed to have access to at the sheriff's office but I got in the back doors through some of the retired guys that got sick of me bugging them for information but I thought from the L. A. Times. Do you know a foul up. You know just go to verify. Confirm or refute my allegations. They gave me a pretty gave the book a pretty good review. But I know stories. I thought there'd be news stories. Maybe I was stupid. Maybe now maybe San Francisco. I mean there hasn't been a story on that. The clinic closed three months. After David Smith is still alive. Roger Smith still alive. What about are they I don't WanNa say ride onto either one of them since that was the other thing. We were sure. We're GONNA get lawsuits. You Know Little Brown was brace for. I mean when he was already dead when I saw it to them so they weren't so much worried about his family. Although it's family they did say you know we could be sued by his family because they own helter skelter and they could argue that you diminish the way of helter skelter which I hope I did and I'd love to have that argument in court not a word but there. Are you know a dozen principle people in that book? Many of them not public figures like Roger Smith David Smith to an extent is because he became very well known not one of them has either threatened. A lawsuit contacted me. The publisher I defend a lot of people and I think again. Thank God. I've got to sixty pages of notes because I think they know they can argue the points than making everything. I have exposed documented. That's why I was so careful about not putting speculation in the book about not putting stuff in there that I hadn't substantiated or corroborated by the book. Made a big enough splash for the healthy man. Who We're helping you thank you. That's what I think. I mean if I had a gas. Also the fact that they can't refute any of the facts. Yeah it's probably better to just let it die. And in today's news cycle things go in and out in the period of days like who killed Epstein. He didn't kill himself boom gone. No one cares anymore. Cove in nineteen Jesus From a lab that might have been. Oh it just keeps going on and on and on. No one's GonNa think about who killed Charles Manson. Today we're worried about quarantining distancing. Tarantino's movie came out and there were ton there's tons of press on on the family members. Where are they now or this or that and again I? Maybe I was just stupid thinking my book. It's all okay you know. I got a lot of good reviews a lot of good response but it didn't do what I wanted to do. Which was to make a change publicity? Tom I didn't know about it. I didn't hear about until Greg Greg told me about it with wild is great fitzsimmons. I should say my good friend introduced and your good friend introduced me to the thing and Greg is not a person who pitches things to me so when he pitched it to me yeah pitched it to me full-throated I was like. Wow He's like dude. It's fucking crazy now and then I got into it for the record. Best Guy in the wealth fits. He's at the end of the book but He's pissed off because I didn't name them. I just talk. I'd identify him as a neighbor. Who came and consoled me at a really bad point gave me good advice so when you get to the end of the book. I'm the neighbor comes by walking too little stupid dogs and asked me to ask me if I want. Come along and he gave you. I mean. He's younger than I am. And He gave me like a dad. Pep talk about hanging in there. He's great I love. He's the best when the book came out and no-one did try to sue you or no one did come after you. Were you concerned that maybe it hadn't gotten the push that you've you've felt like the subject deserved. Yeah Yeah I mean. I was happy because I've never published a book before. And they had a team assigned to it at the publishers. And you know we got. We got a lot of publicity. But we didn't get news making populism. I think part of the problem is that it's a deep book. Yeah dance you gotta get into it to really piece. There's a couple of times where I had to go back over things and like try to piece it together and like there's a lot going on and a lot of people to follow. I know we were GONNA put a character list up at the front. That's great. Listen It's worth doing. Yeah yeah the juices worth the squeeze when you get to the where. I'm at just beginning. Chapter Eleven. Just like holy fucking Shit. Yeah Yeah it's yeah. It was frustrating and again I mean the bottom line for me was. I'm just so happy. It's out there public realm because that would have been. I can't imagine dying with this either being sent into a dumpster somewhere. Nobody's saying that this stuff because I think a lot of it is important. Well you're pregnant for twenty years. That's what I don't have any kids. So yeah that's a good analogy. Yeah so let me ask you this. What what is the speculation? Terms of Bolio sees connection was he given a narrative was D- Did did you. Do you think that they all start without the speckled of something? I can prove he was compromised when he was given this case in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine. It's in the book. He Gosh I mean he has family out there but they know about this. He was involved a couple cases the first one before the trial that are crazy. I mean when you see the stuff that happened between him and I you know all those years later it makes sense when you see what he was like before he became famous so in nineteen sixty five. He had his first child visibly. Oc junior he decided that he wasn't the father that the Milkman was a father and back in those days you're too young to know people used to deliver milk to a home. I remember hearing about it. Yeah so he believed that the Milkman was a father he was a up and coming deputy district attorney in Los Angeles and for about I think. Twelve or sixteen months he stalked his Milkman. Trying to get him to take a blood test to prove that he fathered his wife's child. Jesus Christ it got so bad that they had to They stop letting their kids take the bus home from school. They are two young kids. They didn't know who he was. He wouldn't tell them who he was. All he would say was I was on the Milkman. Had left the job a month after his wife found out she was pregnant. Vince his wife then sent his delirium decided that he was fired because he had gotten You know clients are people delivered milk to pregnant so he was writing them anonymous letters following the kids. I actually this is one thing I did hear. I heard from the the little girl who's now grown woman read about this in my book and she sent me a letter and she goes. You only got half of it. He said he terrorized us. He said my father my father. The moment had a nervous breakdown. She said he came to my school and pick me up and he took me to a toy store bought all these toys from whatever I wanted brought me to the house and he had a driver and he left me at end of the driveway. My mom came out and I was so happy I was like five or six years old. I had all these gifts and she goes into the house. Get into the house. So what happened was got caught. I mean he eventually was stalking them. He sent his wife to the House to beg the milk. Man's wife to get her husband and do a paternity test. And I've got all this from all these civil depositions came when the Milkman sued him later so thence the Milkman eventually got his brother-in-law to follow men's from one of his stakeouts minutes. Put the car outside the House. He sent them letters like they changed their phone number he goes. Oh I noticed you change your phone number. That wasn't nice. I mean not so the Milkman followed vents brother-in-law day got the plate number found out who he was and that he was at the. Da's office called his personal attorney and the personal attorney called Manson. They had a meeting between Vince. The milkman the milk man's wife and Mrs Bouillaud see and then admitted that he had been stock in them because he thought it was his wife he had used as investigators calling this guy material witness in a murder case to follow him. Get Information private information on the so. Vince said he would pay them one hundred dollars and never do it again and the Milkman. Said we don't want your money just never bother us again. So that was all the end of sixty eight early. Sixty nine the. Da's office knew about this. He should have been fired immediately. Instead he gets the biggest case at that point in the history of Los Angeles the Tate Labianca trial. This is where we got speculative. You have a guy like Vince who's compromise. He'll do what the hires up tell him to do. And and if you read in the book ever younger was a district attorney. At the time he was a shady guy who'd been in the O. S. Which was the predecessor to the CIA trained in espionage? I won't say too much. It's in the book. That's where we got speculative if fence was answering for something. The explanation is because he didn't go into this case clean. He had to do what he was told. A makes all the sense in the world. Yeah after the tate labianca convictions and seventy four helter skelter came out the book and to this day. It's the best selling true crime book of all time. And it's a wonderfully written book. I mean I could take page by page and show you stuff that's completely fabricated and made up and that contradicts the real record. But you know bestseller and that same year. Vince was going to run for district attorney and the Milkman and his wife had never told anyone outside of their family what had happened four or five years before but when they saw the pence was trying to be the most powerful long I one person in the city of Los Angeles. They went to his opponent and said you need to know this. This man cannot this job so they told the opponent and they had a press conference so the Milkman and his wife Went public thence responded by having his own press conference and telling the reporters. Here's here's what happened the Milkman. We believe stole three hundred dollars in cash from our kitchen table when he was on the route so I was just doing personal investigation and through reporter said well did you hire. I mean did you contact the Pasadena police goes. I just wanted to do it on my own. And then as other people pointed out later he was doing this. This was sixty five. He was doing through the end of sixty eight. The statute of limitations on theft burglary robbery is three year. It would he even if he found out that he had stolen the three dollars They wouldn't have been able to prosecute it. So the whole thing what he was alive then slide to the media And he lost so then he lost that election then he ran again after helter. Skelter came out. For Attorney General of California at that point the Milkman. And the the wife. We're going to go public again. And say hey. We have even more to tell about this. I think is what the daughter wants to tell me. She actually hasn't gotten in touch with me after the first email. I said I wanna hear what you have and see. She said she has all these documents. But then a woman named Virginia Cardwell said she was going to go public to She came out and said Excuse me after. Vince told the world that the MILKMAN had stolen three hundred dollars for them the Milkman and his wife filed a civil suit against men's and gail his wife because gale also publicly said with fence in an interview that that's true that was all about This petty theft. They sued him for defamation and they settled and Vince pay them. I think it was twelve thousand dollars in cash in hundred dollar bills and you know part of the agreement was they went allowed to talk about it. They couldn't say they'd gotten any money and he would only give it in cash. They couldn't trace it to him. I ended up getting all the documents took a long time and I got them then when they went public again when he was running for attorney general they were subject to you know being in violation of that but they said he can't then we'll tell everything he doesn't. WanNa tell he lied under. Oath and depositions sodas wife about the stalking so and seventy-three Vince had in fair with the woman neighbor. Junior cardwell Virginia Cardwell was Catholic. She got pregnant. She told Vince That she was pregnant with his child and then said she had to get an abortion and she said. I can't get an abortion on the Catholic. She was a single mother. He said he would set it up. He had a doctor It was still illegal then and he. He gave her the money to pay the doctor and then he called her and she said she had gotten the abortion. Everything was fine then. He called the doctor violating hippo rules. The doctor said actually. I've never heard from this woman. I didn't give her the procedure. So events went to her house and beat the hell out of her. And I've got all those depositions to He he just according to her story to the police because she she reported it he dragged her across the hair about the floor by the hair. Satnam punched her and punched her again in the face told her she had to get an abortion She miscarried after that episode. She wants she went to the Santa Monica police as soon as he left and reported it. And nobody would've known about it but Reporter saw it on the you know the police wire service or whatever so the next day it was on the front page of all the papers. That Vince Breglio see have been accused a battery of a woman who said that He wanted her to have an abortion and she wouldn't. So Vince went to the police told them she was lying. She was a a client that he had had one phone consultation with never met her face to face and she was trying to embarrass him because he wanted her to pay him two or three hundred dollars. He defamed her like he did the Milkman. He he made up a story and worse this time. He told that to the police. This was an their investigation of the battery. He lied to the police That it has not happened. But here's what happened. The next day after the newspapers reported it and Vince said it was a lie and he told the police that Vince on back to her apartment with his secretary and typewriter and he held her hostage. I know that sounds crazy. It's in the book at the end. Holler hostage for. I think three or four hours bagging her and then bullying her and I might have hit her then to. I can't remember to go to the police and say that she had made the whole story up. His secretary was there because once he got her to agree to do it. She wrote up. Backdated bill the bill for the money and had Virginia sign it on. My so Virginia finally agreed to go to the police. He said. Look you're going to be charged with filing a false report. Which is a felony. Well it's a misdemeanor could go to a felony and you but I can take care of all that I've got the connections to the DA's office in Santa Monica which he did and he did take care of it So she called up the Santa Monica Police Department to say. She was coming in to report that she had made the story up because she was angry about this money. And the COP said right away. He knew that something was wrong in the trauma of her voice. He said we'll come get you and fence was on. The other line is going on now. He say no no no. They can't come here so she said No. No no I'm coming and they said okay. We'll see when you get here. And then. They dispatched to cops to her apartment now. There's never been pollock before I found. It did become public about what happened. Fence got away with denying it. The cop that went to see what was going on and get her kinda Michael Landes. He was retired in Santa Monica. I got his name from the reports he said events was at the house. He wouldn't let us in. He said he he and his partner Robert Steinberg were there and she's cowering behind them crying and we got her out of the House party to the station and she told the the the story that it was fake and he said but we saw him. There she goes. You have no idea how dangerous he is I I made it up please. It was a false report so she got charged. The next day's paper reported that this woman had come out and admitted that the whole thing was made up. Nobody said anything. Because the cops didn't talk to reporters about things being at the House and thence you know he he prevailed he won then when he ran for attorney. General of California in seventy six Virginia Cardwell went public And then then Said told the same lie about had never seen her face to face she was trying to get two or three hundred dollars from him for not pay the money for a phone consultation. He lost the Attorney General's race when she went public and again with the Milkman and mistress then she sued vents. Same thing he lied and the depositions and then when he got caught with the other people who could show that they'd been together and there was a history of they'd had an affair for like six months. He resolved that and paid her a substantial amount of money to go away. So this is the kind of person who when I told Vince. I was writing about this in my book. He will. He's like well number one. I can't talk about those cases because they were resolved and there's nondisclosures Goldfinch you know. That's not true. I mean number one. Virginia's dead she had died So she can't see you and she went public and so did the white cells the Milkman and the mistress and I wouldn't you know I'm not interested in your sorted personal life but it's relevant because I'm arguing that you committed crimes and the prosecution of the Manson family suborned perjury Hid Evidence you know manipulated. The defense by planning an attorney. So I if I'M GONNA YOU KNOW. Try TO MAKE THIS CASE. And everyone's not gonNA believe it because you're not as prominent prosecutor author. Well I have to show that. There's a pattern in this behavior. Not only that. You're lying under oath and the depositions in these two cases before you settle but you also lied to the police and the Cardwell case and you lied to the papers and both if I have that in my book then people will be more prone to believe that you do the same thing in the Tate Labianca. Trial that you. Would you know. Break rules to win your convictions. Did he have a ghost? Writer for helter skelter collaborator. Kirk Chantrey Okay so that makes sense. Yeah I sounds like an insane person and sane person would probably not be able to make such a coherent book. I know every bookie Rodeo collaborators. He so the milk man's wife in her deposition said that when Gail Bench. His wife came to her house and knocked on her door and said please do this. My husband's making me crazy. We know that he's the Milkman. Isn't the father of my my boy but just do it to make him stop and the the milk man's said we're not we don't want to have anything to do with you people. Just leave us alone and go away and she goes. You don't understand. My husband is mentally. Ill He goes. He'll never stop this high. There's nothing I can do change to get him to stop at the end of our six hours. I don't remember if I put it in the book I might not have. He said to me you know gail things. I have some psychiatric issues and she's been trying to get me to go to a doctor forever so I'm not saying that this is the reason some of this stuff might happen but I do you know. I don't even know why he would tell me that. Yes so I think he was able to be manipulated because of these long. It was so compromised. Yeah makes sense makes sense? Holy Shit? He had a family whole hunter secret family daughter and a mistress for the next thirty years. I interview the mistress. I didn't put it in the book. I didn't think it was necessary. I guess now I'm telling it but it actually got reported after he died because the mistress I told a few other people I've known about her for years and I knew he had a daughter who was at the time of Vincent's death. She was in her thirties. I think now to go back to the Manson killings. What was the motive tit to hit that house if it wasn't too Doris Day son was his name again. Terry Melcher if it wasn't to scare Terry Melcher. What was the motive like? Why did they kill Sharon Tate and the people in that house? Here's why it took so long to finish the book to write the book. I have conflicting theories you know in the first couple of chapters. I lay out the evidence that it was a drug deal gone. Wrong right It involved billy oil and Charles Taco and these guys who were dealing drugs out of the house with void check for CAL ski. You know one of the victims Polanski's friend and possibly allegedly JC. Bring the hairdresser. I lay out that case. And then we bleed into the next part where. We'll wait a minute. What did it mean that? Manson had this immunity. And why would Terry Melcher lie on the stand? I mean why not say he saw Manson after yet undermines the argument but I thought the bully. Oc could've act. I mean Masson and the followers did everything they could get themselves convicted at trial. They didn't put on a defense you know they carve access in their foreheads shaved their heads girls skipped and laugh in and out of the courtrooms every day when they finally testified during the death penalty phase Susan Atkins then. She said that she stabbed Sharon Tate. And you think they were dosing them before the trial. I can't go there. I mean it makes sense of there laughing and dancing. Well my if we're GONNA speculate again. I believe that other objectives was personality change using drugs notice etc and making it fix making it stick. These doctors were trying to learn. Why SOME PEOPLE DO THEY? A precipitating personality factors. That made them more vulnerable to using. Lsd wants or a few times and all of a sudden just losing all sense of reality. Not everyone had that experience but some did and that research began in nineteen sixty two in Los Angeles. There's a whole chapter. There's a few chapters but there's a whole chapter that we left out of the book and we'll if we do do a follow up it'll be in there about another guy who's not even named the book who was one of these LSD researchers and you're interested in hyperbolic chambers and all that stuff hyperbolic chambers or you mean sensory deprivation. Yeah Yeah Okay. It's not a hyperbolic chamber. Okay all right well this was as a hyperbolic would know. Hyper-baric is at the. That's the increased oxygen. Yeah injuries yeah well so there was a group. It's a fascinating would have been fascinating chapter. There was a group of people artists educators and they were all kind of like beat. Nixon stuff that lived onto Panga Beach In this community that of abandoned fishermen's shacks that had been there when the PCH went up in the thirties and forties. There was this whole community of homes. Mostly ramshackle homes that were inaccessible except by one road. I think to Panga Canyon road so a bunch of people like migrated there who wanted to. They were almost like communal living and there were I think about thirty of them and they renovated them and they were beautiful. Little places they all got destroyed when they turn that into a park in the early seventies or mid seventies But one of the guys that are Paul. Rohan wasn't LSD researcher UCLA during the same kind of research West was doing but as early as sixty two but unofficially he. And I don't know if you know Oscar janitor was he was one of the first doctors psychiatrists in Los Angeles who got LSD from Santa's for his patients but there was a group of these people that live there and one of them was named Perry bins and he was a diver And he was a trust fund medical student a lot of money and he built a hyperbolic chamber and put gas in it His objective was to try to learn a way to die. They were all deep sea divers punch. These guys dive to the deaths of people hadn't dove to before by learning how to deprive the brains of oxygen for longer and longer times they got access to LSD. They were the first one supposedly civilians in the United States have access to LSD. You know not through military or CIA experiments as early as nineteen fifty four fifty five and then by the early sixties everybody who knew knew where to get LSD from this community and Tex Watson. Move there who was the main killer and sixty eight and lived among these guys who were doing this early research into mostly the one. Guy Paul Raw Personality Change It's I mean it's so complicated about why it's important that Watson was with this community Prior to joining Manson and what happened to him as far as his personality changed even before he met Manson which was the summer six day. But I guess I'll save that for the next chapter the whole so the motive though to get back to the. Yeah for the official motive was I mean. He said in his closing arguments that The the main motives to ignite helter skelter rates for the sub motive was to instill fear in Terry Melcher because he had rejected Manson right. So you're saying well then if it wasn't those than what was it all right if you look at the Colo Co Intel pro objectives which was to diminish the you know to neutralize left wing movement to make them look horrible evil bad and this is what drugs are going to do your kids the kind of outcome that this these murderers had was to make the hippies the boogeyman. I mean the biggest boogeyman in United States history. I don't know forever. But at least until the seventy s became Charlie Manson and when Manson was and his family were identified as suspects the week of December sixty nine. I mean it was like Earth shaking because all of a sudden nobody knew who had committed the murders that the case was open from August till I December. You have photos on the front page of every paper. In the world of these hippie women nursing children living communally who are accused of these horrible brutal slayings and the argument was a and what the reporters who were reporting was they had gone crazy on. Lsd and free love and and the hippy ethic and That was same thing. Cast and Cohen Power. Trying to do they were trying to damage the youth revolution the youth they targeted that house though off so J. Edgar Hoover when he had the coin tell pro operation that he wrote them an excuse me in. La Agent wrote a memo to hoover saying what we have to do. This was when they were mostly battling the panther. I mean trying to neutralize the panthers in La was go after the whites. The elite whites the Hollywood whites who are supporting the panthers. Something called the White Panther Party that began in. La Sixty seven. Or Sixty Eight Jane Fonda Warren Beatty Cass. Elliot those three were actually under surveillance by the FBI. They were part of this group. Donald Sutherland and they were basically a support. Leonard Bernstein. They supported the panthers. They raise money. So when there's one memo which I think it was the winter of sixty eight it's got the date in. The book said that what we have to make the whites thing is that when the revolution finally happens when the blacks rise up they'll be lined up with everybody else in slaughtered. So if you look at that memo that was part of their operation which was to they did it by influence sending letters making you know the white scared saw that hate to speculate but I think people will draw that conclusion. If you read the book that this could have been a chaos going pro operation to turn you know the world the nation the culture against hippies the left wing the Black Panthers and they picked out house because it was high profile because Sharon tate was actually will not Sharon tate was there her and Polanski. And that's one thing that Tarantino I don't think he showed that Parties at the House. They were like these social center of Hollywood. It wasn't just the movie people. It was the music people and Terry Melcher and candy. Bergen lived there for two years before that was a party house. Everybody went in and out of their kind of represented the elite of of of movies music. Hollywood you know white people so that would have been a very high profile place to target because all the people in that community in the Hollywood community would then also be aware that that was a spot they had been to all these high profile people had been there. Yeah it's like Joan diddy and wrote in her book. The white album that the morning she learned about the murders and she knew most of the victims she goes. It occurred she goes. I knew that the sixty s and they were over. I mean there was also altamonte and I mean not a whole lot else but that was like a cultural watershed moment but the La Bianca killings were fairly random. Yeah and that's a regret I have been up for sale. You know. Yeah just really recently. I heard you. I'm really cheap. Yeah Yeah I mean. They changed the number on the street. Still Love Yeah. Yeah not not this yellow house. I know the house really drive. Yeah oddly enough. I knew it was for sales like I was really interested not to buy but I was like. Wow that's crazy like imagine someone buying the house where that the killings took place but it was so long ago. Yeah it wouldn't be that creepy for some of the House on the other side. Is the former convent. That Katy Perry's men fighting in court with the nuns are the church to buy. This has been going on for a couple of years. I don't know if it's been yeah. Yeah it's it's a big beautiful home. That had been turned into a convent like a retirement home for nuns and when the Church really hit hard times financially. They told the nuns eight. We're going to have to leave there. Because they were selling it so they the church I think sold it to Katy Perry and then some of the nuns hired a because they didn't want to leave I I didn't look too closely at it but I just know that the whole thing is in dispute that's Hilar- and that's on the other side of the La Bianca House. Oh Wow so. The whole area's haunted. So did they did they target the Law Bianca House for any reason all right so the book is about five hundred page long five hundred pages long. I didn't put anything in there about the law. Bianca case and what I learned We also you know withheld our chapters on the RFK assassination hand connected to its twenty years of reporting an assassination of of Robert. Kennedy was same. Cops investigated. Same District Attorney's office prosecuted it. And if you if you want to take a deep dive into that Sirhan Amnesia of how he ended up in the Pantry Cheeses Christ I actually filmed an episode of fear factor at that hotel hotels being used now for that and I walked through that Pantry. Area there to their. You know. It's torn down now. They made it a public school. I mean they built a public school. But there's a crucifix carved into the floor of the cement floor where Robert Kennedy Kennedy fell. Oh Jesus yeah so I think I remember that somehow. Yeah so the stuff we kept out about. Rfk that'll be in the next book if we do it. But there's incredible parallel. You're doing another book Tom. I don't want to because I don't have twenty more years. I know one thing I wouldn't do it without my collaborator. Because he speeds it up. Yeah you get it done in four. You've got so much information already right so the lobby on could killings Bianca killings again. This is stuff that then kept out and again the reason the book so hard to ride is one theory would conflict with another bright. So if the tapes were killed for Co Intel pro high profile Neutral is the left or drug deal gone wrong. What about the law? Bianca's with Bianca's were upper middle class. Couple that lived in las villas and thence wrote in the book that they were randomly targeted because Manson had been to the house. Next door quite a bit. When someone named Harold true lived there And knew the layout and supposedly went to kill Harold. True I gotTa Harold Truth House which was empty and then went next door tied up the lobby. Uncle couple left the house and set texts and Tex Watson and Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten Into Kill Them What Vince wrote about what the investigators found out was that Lino the father had a gambling debts. He also had embezzled two hundred thousand dollars from his family company and the original investigation. The two teams were separate the LAPD assigned to different units wanted the tate murders which was much larger and one of the Law Bianca and they announced within a couple days that even though the crime scenes were similar. Same weapon multiple stab wounds blood writing on the wall. He pig out They didn't think they were connected. They thought that somebody had done a copycat of the first nights. Murderers to throw off. Investigators I make an argument in the book that I think the police knew exactly. Who did both motors from various? Right away. It'll be too long to get into here but all the evidence that I accumulated is in there and I'm not the first one to say that but So then why with Bianca's killed you know it was Vince. Kept out of the book was not only. Was You know? Lino indebted his family but he had a meeting on August ninth with his family that they had told him he had to in his two brothers in law and his mother who operated the gateway shop it was called Gateway Markets. They had a string of supermarkets. It was pretty well to do except that you know. Get stealing all the money. They had a meeting on August ninth where they were GonNa make them sign over all his shares. Leave the family business and on August night. He didn't show up. He went with his wife and their boat to a lake where their daughter was visiting a friend so the daughter and her friend could water ski. Didn't even call the family to say wasn't showing up. Came back that night and was killed with his wife. Kept that important meeting out. He also kept the depth and the degree of Of Lena's data out so and this is an in my book. We didn't have enough room. I you know I mentioned them. You know because it's an important part but I don't talk about what I found out and and why it was important. There's a much better case that that Lena was targeted You know the argument would be well. Who would ever higher Manson to kill someone Well you know. Manson wasn't as dumb as he seemed. You know then they needed money. This is why I don't want to speculate a again. It's not even a chapter in the book so I can't really show you what I've got except the tire. One other argument that Vince made for why he thought the lobby on were killed by the Manson family. I mean they actually right with a I theory. It was a copy of the night before to throw off investigators but it was the same killers. The police were wrong when they thought it was two separate killers which. I don't think they did. Is he said we could never establish a connection between the two groups of victim. So there was the Hollywood set Benedict Canyon Cielo drive. And then there was lean on his wife across town in Los Villas and we worked so hard to try to determine if they knew each other at any encounter thus tying them together and we couldn't that was ally. Lino got his haircut from Jay sebring the victim he was J. C. Brings APPOINTMENT BOOK? That's in the police reports that I got access to like my first or second year. When I begged persuaded a cop to let me come go through his files and Palm Springs till he very well might have been to that house to the Dr House. Yeah Yeah So. They knew that social circle. I don't know about the social circle. But he could of who knew bring was a very high profile hairdresser. He was yeah and it was very expensive. It was very expensive. Yeah he charged. I mean it was expensive back then. I think it was just twenty dollars but most men got their haircut for like a buck or two back. Then yeah it was an exclusive and he was a hairdresser to the stars he was. Sharon's ex boyfriend who was still supposedly in love with her Roman stolen from him And he was with Sharon. You know the last night of her life Yeah I mean there's other stuff that didn't end up in the book for space reasons and also one of the most important things I found out and this goes to your question about why why this house or why that house. That's not in the book but I talked about it before I found this out too late to get on the block. I was able to confirm it the night before Sharon Tate. Jc BRING FOR CHECK FOR COW. Skin kill folder. Were killed and Cielo drive. The for them had dinner J.'s. House down the bottom of Benedict Canyon. That's all on the official story Jay had them to dinner. Amos's Butler made them stakes And they ate them and Jay's bedroom so the four people were in the bedroom is August seventh the night before the murders. What's not in the official version? But I found the police reports is Jay had gotten cable. Tv which again a lot of my critics there was no cable TV in nineteen sixty nine in Los Angeles. There was cost a lot of money. Only a few people had it. But you you had it. Jay Sharon Abigail and void check. Had Ice Cream does or served by Amos the Butler. He went back downstairs. They were Gonna. Watch the movie. And then all of a sudden there was a whoops sorry a power surge and the lights went really really bright and dimmed and they lost the cable so Jay called Paul Green Wall. Paul Green Wall was a law student whose father was Jay's attorney and he and he was in electrical. Listen that's how he supported himself gone through law school and he had done all the wiring for J. so he called Paul Greenwald and this was the Thursday night at like nine o'clock and he said can you come over here. We're trying to watch a movie and the cable went out and I don't know there was a surge so posit I can't I gotTa Day. I've been trying to get this day for months. I can't blow her off. And Jay's like okay that's all right we'll do something now so in the official narrative. Nobody reported the surge losing the cable but in the official narrative J. stayed there Sharon and Vojtech and Gab. Abigail I think went to the daisy. A club and then chairman for a half hour and somebody took her home and then J. went to the club what I found out from a police interview. Paul Greenwald the kid who was called to ask he told this to the police and then he confirmed it to me. Thirty forty years later when I found him and interviewed him he said I went to the house either Sunday or Monday after the murders because my father sent there to get a suit for Jay to be buried in he goes. I got to the House and I wanted to see what had happened to the wire. Since I put all the wires and and I did a circle of the house and I found the wires cut he goes pick them up and I looked at them and there were like four cables and three working because these were deliberately cut I could tell by the predation and and the angle and he told the police that he said so the night before they were killed. Somebody cut the wires and it couldn't have been a gardener because it was nine o'clock at night and he said from what J. had told him about the power so he's like all the for life got really bright and then damned goes. That's what happens when you do. I don't know anything about electricity. The police didn't follow up on it or if they did. I couldn't find a record and I found Alvin Queen while and I said you know you're a police report which I have completely upends the prosecution's argument that these people were random because Tex Watson the next night cut the wires at the Tate House the phone wires and then they went into the house and killed everybody. So unless it's a coincidence that twenty four hours before the same for people at a different location have the house. Wires cut by somebody who might have gotten spooked by the surge or something They weren't random. They were being targeted so that raises questions about that. Undermines the the randomness of it that they were strangers killers? But there's no conclusive thing you can point to that. Says this is the reason why they were targeted now. Wow Yeah what a book. What a journey been on man. I'm very happy for you thanks. I'm happy that you you did it. I mean it has to feel like an amazing accomplishment after all those years this book. Yeah yeah and again I mean more than anything in the world even gotten to the end of the book. There's a murder in there that I think the Manson family committed that was covered up by law enforcement. Because it screwed up screwing up the prosecution. I want that looked into There's also at the end of the book. There are these tax watson tapes that I found out about in two thousand and eight when Watson turned himself and when he found he was alerted in Texas. He was at his parents house they called. The police called the local sheriff. Who is Texas cousin and his parents and said he's wanted for questioning in these unsolved tate. Murders this was November twenty ninth. Nobody had been identified publicly as suspects. The police were just starting to figure out that these people had killed their victims so to lapd flew down to Texas Watson was brought into the station questioned by the L. A. P. D. put under arrest. They had to extradite him. So the sheriff there Texas cousin put them in Sal. The family call up lawyer Bill Boyd. Who would actually represent a tax on college case when he stole a typewriter from a college and a prank bill? Boyd told me in an interview in two thousand and eight. That that day he had text tell him the whole story or Charles. He called him about how he met. Manson. Why the murders were committed. How they happen. He said he spoke to me for twenty hours and he goes. I've got all those audiotapes in a safe my office. He told me this in two thousand and eight. He said he also described other murders that the family had committed. That hadn't been connected to them in two thousand and working on it that long I thought other murders. That's important to me but more important. Did He tell his attorney? Why the murders really happen. You know why they picked those houses as you know. This was the first account that was recorded. The next one was Susan Atkins about a week later. After she had gotten her new attorney that the prosecution planted they audiotaped her telling her version which became the official version. So Watson's would predate that by a week and when I found out that they were in that safe and he's telling me this on the phone I thought well he. He can't play that to me because that would violate Watson's Attorney client privilege but I have to ask so I said. Is there any chance Mr Boyd? I could come down and listen to those tapes. And he said that's when he realized he shouldn't a told me he said. Oh Well I. I couldn't do that without Charles. Charles Watson Charles Permission I go you still in with me. I write to him every now and then he writes me. He didn't represent him at trial after he was extradited. And I said would you please ask so? That began three or four months pestering him. He would never take the phone call and then finally. After four months I called up and his secretary said on. Sorry Mr. Boys in China on business today and I said well you have to tell them. I'm not gonNA wait anymore. I'm going to write to Charles and tell them what he told me I go. If there's other bodies didn't let them know that I was more interested in the motive story but I said if there's an and I wasn't interested in this too there's other bodies victims out there who have never been connected or even willing enough remains were uncovered because there's a lot of evidence that there might have been people killed out in the desert and buried there I go. I need to know that. And she said okay. I'll tell them. My phone rang like literally thirty seconds after I hung it up and had caller. Id and it was from his Texas office he goes. This is Bill Boyd. You cannot call Charles and tell him I told you that I said Mr Boyd. You haven't called me back for four months because one telling you now. You can't do that. I go well. Are you going to get his permission? He goes yeah. You just have to be patient. I go I wait anymore. He says if you do that and you tell him often I ever telling you. I said it's all on tape. I tape that call because you didn't have permission to tape that caller go. Yeah you gave me permission at the beginning. And that's on tape too. Goddamn you journalists. And he hung up on me. You journalists lumped in with all of them. You know he said. My Wife's his wife was does my waist. Which I know you gave me permission. It's on the Audio Tate. How so he died six months later on the treadmill I'd be thinking about you and his his firm went bankrupt and then it wasn't until two or three years later. It's all in there the backstory but I finally went to try to get the tapes again and found out he had died. Found out that the tapes were in the possession of trustee who was waiting for the bankruptcy to be of all resolved and it took me three or four months of back and forth and to try to get them to the tapes to me and I made an argument for why they won't protect it anymore again. Long Story Short. I was sharing information with the deputy. Da in Los Angeles who I thought was friendly. He was Intel. He wasn't He was handling all the parole hearings of the Manson family guide. Impact Secure The woman who was in charge of the tapes. The Trustees said if secure calls me and tells me that it's okay for me to release them to you and explains how it's not a violation. I'll do it. I said I'll ask him so I asked me said absolutely I. WanNa talk to her and I said great a day later. I got a call from secure. 'cause you're not gonNA believe that she's releasing the tapes to us. I go you. He goes yeah. You don't worry I'll let you hear him when we get them he she asked. I knew right then I had lost any kind of control and sure enough number one. The trustee had notify Watson's new attorney Watson. Put up a fight in court and you can read about in the La Times reported on that for about a year for about a year it went from the local court to the State Supreme Court where the judge finally ruled that the lapd should have the tapes. They sent two officers down to get the tapes in two thousand and thirteen. They came back and then nobody at the DA's office we talk to me anymore. The promise that have been made that would be the first one to listen to them. Reneged those tapes. A million journalists have made freedom of Information Act requests for them. They won't release them. They're locked up Leslie van. Houten's attorney wants him. He thinks it'll help her at her parole hearings because he thinks there's information on there to show that she's been telling the truth all these years he's gone to the State Supreme Court through other courts. They blocked them down twenty hours. I account of how and why these murders occurred and they're not releasing them. I think it's because the truth is on their Holy Shit. What is that truth? Maybe I mean you've got a wide audience. Maybe other people will come forward. I would just be happy if some paper like the time the La Times The New York Times Washington Post assigns reporters just to go through my reporting. And See. If I've made shit up or I if it all plays out and then does a little bit of additional reporting. A lot of these people are dying you know. They're getting all but a lot of them are still alive and they could be interviewed. Well I hope they do Tom. Everybody go get this. Chaos Charles Manson the CIA. The secret history of the sixty S. Tom O'Neil. It's amazing. Tom. Let me one more thing please. If people want to see the actual documents I have an instagram and a facebook page. Where I'VE PUT THEM UP. There's also excerpts of my interviews with Julio Manson Case really important stuff where I put the audiotapes up so what you can't get in the poker even on the footnotes you can see online if you just google. My Name Manson and Instagram or facebook. They're all right. They're masking yeah. Yeah that's Super Charles Man. If you scroll down cons of that stuff thank you so much. July pleasure com tested right before this. I know so For coming thanks for me No I mean I would. So it was a distraction for not being nervous about this worried about my test results. Well we got it and we got the book and I really appreciate your man. That was really really a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. I appreciate it all right bye. Everybody thank you friends. Thank you for tuning to show and you to our sponsors. Thank you to athletic. Greens fantastic nutritional insurance. They delivered straight to your door taste grape and its high quality. 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Charles Manson Smith Roger Smith murder LSD CIA Los Angeles officer West Roger Smith federal government Doctor Sidney Gottlieb Charlie Joe Rogan Haight Ashbury San Francisco Dr West Greens Psychiatry Department Google Mexico
Forget What You Think You Know About The Manson Murders

1A

36:48 min | 11 months ago

Forget What You Think You Know About The Manson Murders

"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity. Some things are slow like a snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X. by get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply this is one A. on Todd's will like in for Joshua Joshua Johnson in Washington fifty years ago at this very moment police in Los Angeles. We're on the hunt for the perpetrators of two horrific murder scenes now now one month before on a night in August in nineteen sixty nine. The followers of an ex con named Charles Manson brutally killed five people in a house on Cielo drive. Dr Including actress Sharon Tate who was eight and a half months pregnant Jay sebring watch for caskey Abigail folder and eighteen year old. Stephen Parent died as well that night the next night across town. The Manson family killed a grocery store chain owner Leno Labianca and his wife Rosemary. The country was upended. d- by these murders the image of flower child hippies morphing into fears of drug addled violent counterculture inosine described by one investigator gator is reminiscent of the weird religious right five persons including actress Sharon Tate were found dead. Mistake was eight months pregnant and was found with a rope around her neck. Jack attached to the body of a man. They were discovered this morning by a maid who ran screaming to neighbors. One officer summed up the murderers when he said in all my years. I I have never seen anything like this before that was a newscast from CBS News nineteen sixty nine in August the aftermath of the Cielo drive murders fifty years later Manson and his cult remain a symbol of brutal American violence and the Ugly Final Act of the nineteen sixties now some of you who were alive during those murder her shared with us what you remember about those times hi my name is Maria right after the Manson murders. I was in the library in my in middle school and I happened to be looking at life magazine and they had photos of the murder scene. I never I got them. They haunted me for years. I wish I would have never seen those pictures. My name is Jim. I live in Chapel Hill North Carolina my wife and I you were born in sixty five sixty. Seven one thing we had in common was that is children. We both were terribly frightened by Charles Manson. He was the boogeyman. Would you man for many of us. In our generation high this cat I was about about the third grade when that happened and I remember dominating the National National News and we had a little black and white TV and it was always the at Phnom War footage and Charles Manson's image really that event left such an indelible little impression the Sharon tate murder. It seems that Charles Manson is haunting. Image is just sort of here into my brain is the epitome of evil. Thank Beauty Maria and to Jim and cat for leaving US those voicemails you know Charles Manson became famous after those horrible murders and many of us and I count myself in this camp became fascinated with Manson murders. It's important to remember in discussions about Charles Manson and in this one that this was an American tragedy not not just a true crime thriller but a real American tragedy but here's the question now. What if the infamous story that we all thought we knew about Charles Manson in the family isn't the whole Truth Investigative Reporter Puerto Author. Tom O'Neil spent twenty years filling in the gaps of a narrative that's held up for decades about the Manson family and those murders including what motivated them it's all in his new book chaos Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixty S. Tom O'Neil joins me now from. whyy in Philadelphia Tom O'Neil what a pleasure Thanks for having me and thanks for being here Tom. I I gave some details about the Manson murders what America remembers about them some of the sketchy details as we start it off your described. The story of the murders that America came to accept why they happened. What is it that we believe about these murders. While the official narrative of the story that was presented by the prosecutor Events Pelosi trial then later in his bestselling book helter skelter was that Manson had prophesized a race were that was going to end in the complete termination of the white race with the blacks prevailing he called helter skelter based on biblical typical prophecies and of course the Beatles Song of the same name when the race war wasn't happening soon enough he ordered his followers who are completely lately loyal to him by that point to go out and kill strangers that represented society and represented success that he felt had rejected him his whole life and they were supposed to leave science as he he told them to implicate the Black Panthers so the first night burgers that you described with Sharon tate and four others they left pig written on blood at the State House the Second Night at the La Bianca home and let's feel as they left helter skelter written in blood on the refrigerator death to pigs rise other words and blood at the house Manson had promised his followers that he had located a bottomless pit in the desert and Death Valley where he would protect them during this race war and he said there were rivers of honey and twelve trees trees twelve different kinds of fruits after the race war or ended after the blacks had prevailed he would emerge from that whole with his family and subjugate the black race and replenish she earth with his perfect offspring. That's why the murders were committed. According to the official narrative now let's go back to the time once again you mentioned. Vincent Bugliosi the prosecutor who eventually really put Charles Manson and the family in jail here's bouillaud talking to the press in July of nineteen seventy two ignite helter skelter to start the black white revolution Manson Manson envisioned that white people would turn against the black man if they thought the black men at committed these seven murders and ultimately there would be a civil war between blacks and whites on the street. Manson foresaw that the black man would win this war but later on he said the black man because of inexperience would simply not be able to handle the reins of power so we'd have to look around on at those white people who had survived let escape from helter skelter in other words turn over the reigns of power to Charles Manson and his family why the lobby yonkers and the person's imitate Tate House. Why were they selected by Manson as well. You have to realize that if you're going to have a bizarre Motorola motive like this doesn't really make any difference who the victims are Vincent Bugliosi the prosecutor talking to reporters Tom. O'Neil Vincent Bugliosi put the members of the family in prison he just gave the helter skelter shelter narrative the race war narrative how did this narrative become cemented in the American consciousness well for anyone who followed the trial got more coverage virgin any trial and the history of the United States to that point and probably up until the OJ trial they would have learned about it there but the the book helter skelter that came out in nineteen in seventy four to this day is the best selling true crime book of all time and that really cemented it in in the public consciousness also there was a TV movie Nine Hundred Seventy six based on the book that went over two nights and that was at the time the highest rated TV movie of all time so it became kind of a fixture in popular culture. That's still more or less exist to this day. What's the problem with this narrative well as bullying. OC admitted two or three times in interviews Manson never ever believed that motive unfortunately he never admitted this to me when I was interviewing him when I found out he had said this and earlier interviews he wasn't speaking to me anymore. He was threatening pretty extensive lawsuits and civil action against me so I couldn't ask him if Manson didn't order these murders to ignite a race war than what was the reason he sent his followers to kill the people that they killed the motive falls apart with that and then with the evidence that I uncovered like you said over twenty years of getting documents and original reports from different agencies sheriff's Office Los Angeles Police Department federal files barely tweets this. Please please please please stop referring to Charles Manson as a hippie. He was nothing of the kind the only thing that made him remotely similar to hippies was his long scraggly hair. He was a psychopath path cult leader and nothing more I think that points Tom O'Neil to Charles Manson's place in the violent close of the sixties. He's the protests against violence in Vietnam and and the civil rights movement raging protests and riots raging in American streets Charles Manson and his violent Oakland family have become entrenched in the American consciousness ever since nineteen sixty nine. What do you think it says about us that we're still talking about Charles Manson today and that Charles Charles Manson became an obsession for you. I think Vince Baliles did a really good job propagandizing Charles Manson and the family and your callers is correct. Manson didn't consider himself a hippie he called them he and his followers slippy because they slipped in and out of people's homes and stole things and I did things he had a real disdain for hippies he wasn't about peace and love he was a violent racist and I the life magazine cover that another caller mentioned with that picture of the crime scene was followed three months later by this terrifying photo of Manson on the cover of life looking for all intents and purposes like Satan so that kind of became ingrained in the public consciousness and with that the sixties. Xt's and the Hippie movement also became attached to Manson's face Manson's followers everybody just kind of combine that altogether and as he said he Manson was a metaphor for evil hippies were dangerous the sixties and the free love and and drug lifestyle was something that could create something like what happened on August eighth nineteen sixty nine. We're going to talk a lot more about Vincent Bugliosi. He interacts with you at so many points in the story. How much money did he make off of the sale of helter skelter. I never found that out. I don't know I imagine quite a bit though still bestselling I mean you've gotTa be envious best selling true crime book of all time time even if there are major holes in the story which we're GonNa talk about right right right. I'm speaking with Tom O'Neil. He's author of chaos Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixties and we're GonNa talk about all of those things in the subtitle on Todd's glad to be with you you're listening to one eight from WMU in India support for this podcast and the following message come from Google from Connecticut to California from Mississippi to Minnesota millions of American businesses says are using Google tools to grow online the grow with Google initiative support small businesses by providing free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching and all fifty states dates helping businesses get online connect with new customers and work more productively learn more at Google dot com slash grow. I can't believe that summer is basically over. I know and you know what that means. The twenty twenty presidential race is only going to heat up. It's a good thing we spent all summer sitting down with the Democratic candidates as for president. Hello it is great to be with you. Thanks for having him delighted to be here. Plus free shipping check out the NPR politics podcast feed for exclusive interviews with all the candidates on the debate stage subscribe. Tom. How did you get involved in the crimes of Charles Manson Manson and the family. You were a freelance journalist in la. I I don't think you've spent your life obsessed with this story. So what was your way in. I actually never read helter. Skelter wasn't wasn't interested in the story. I got a call in one thousand nine hundred nine from an editor of a magazine called Premier I had worked with her and another magazine prior to that mostly doing doing entertainment reporting so this was not up my alley but it was a very different kind of an assignment. She just wanted me to write what would then have been a thirtieth anniversary serie piece about the case crimes how they impacted Hollywood. It was nine hundred ninety nine. I told her I wasn't interested that I'd never read the book and hadn't the spend written to death no pun intended and she said you'll find an angle. You need the job you need the money. I know we're actually pretty good friends and I said okay so I thought it'd be three months of my life. first thing. I did was I got helter. Skelter read the book you know highlighted a couple of sections it seemed kind of if not fully explained to me and then had my first meeting with Vince Breglio see the prosecutor who at that point hadn't prosecuted for years he had left the office office after I think nineteen seventy one seventy two had a pretty successful career as an author written about twelve bucks public speaker and he very generously unwelcomed me into his home in Pasadena and we spent the day together about six hours discussing the case and at the end of the six hours. I realized that he hadn't told me anything that he had already written in the book or told a million other magazine interviewers so I did what I what what we call the Hail Mary Pass I asked him. If there is anything he could tell me that had never been reported about this before something new and he could do it off the record for attribution so he paused Austin I could see him contemplating and then he said turn it off. Turn it off for finding my tape recorder so I turned it off and he told me something that was pretty explosive and scandalous. LS and you'll see or if your listeners get the book they'll see what it was towards the end of the book when the off the record relationship and did and I and I was able to use it it kind of sent me down the rabbit hole that lasted for twenty years that little bit of information lead to more and more more where in the end it worked against him because I found out that his whole case Aban or or major portions of his case have been fabricated. he conceal evidence he withheld information. He suborned perjury with some of his key witnesses. What's important in Noah's. He had a CO author and a book deal. prior to the commencement of the trial in June of nineteen seventy and that author curt gentry had a front row seat every day so he had a conflict flicked interest he was playing as much to the future readers of this book as he was to the jury but I'm interested in that moment. You started to describe it. Vincent believes he tells you something off the record. But what did the first piece of paper. You turned the first document. You looked at that made. You say wait a second. This doesn't add up. There's a problem here. It actually okay. WH- was a couple of interviews. I've got exclusive interviews with some of his key prosecution witnesses than one of these people was Rudi Altobelli. He owned the House elsewhere. Sharon tate was killed. He lived in the back house but wasn't there that night he was in Europe with another client. he told me ah or shared information with me after it took a while to get them to really start talking till he trusted me about. Terry Melcher relationship with Charles Manson Jason Terry Melcher Doris Day sun a very talented young record producer talented by his own right and Terry had testified at the trial trial that he had met Manson three times and the last time he auditioned him the Spahn ranch as a possible to produce a record four and wasn't impressed and very politely advise Manson who else he might work with and that was that what I found heard from Rudy. I was that but that wasn't the truth that Manson was much more involved than Melcher and some other Melchior's friends lives and it extended beyond the murder period I didn't and believe it at first and it took me a year but once I got into the first important file really it was a district attorney's file. Leo's zone file at the office at the DA's office. I found documents cooperating that Tom. O'Neil one of the most troubling things that you uncovered in your investigation was this pattern of leniency toward members of the family in the months before the murders in nineteen sixty nine. Maybe even in late nineteen sixty eight a lot of these members of the family had criminal records they were on parole or probation and you document this pattern of arrests and parole violations probation violations recommendations to judges for returns to prison prison and in case after case judge after judge instead of sending these people back to prison turning them loose a free pass not just letting them go in some cases canceling their parole or probation altogether what was going on here well that began with Manson's released from federal prison in March of nineteen sixty seven he was released in Los Angeles and he immediately violated his parole by moving up to San Francisco and turning up at the parole office. They're announcing that he preferred to live in San Francisco. Despite being assigned to Los Angeles now normally that person would have been immediately violated and sent right back to prison especially someone like Manson Hansen who at that time it had spent about twelve fifteen years in and out of federal prisons instead they assigned him a new parole officer who is doing research in the Haight Ashbury district and during the following months Manson got arrested several times and each time the researcher researcher would look the other way and not violate Manson Manson should've been sent back at least three or four times the first year and it was during that year that he became a kind of transformed into the Messiah Masonic cult leader. We all knew and then the question is why why the repeated catch-and-release why the apparent evidence that not only Charles Manson but members of his family who were felons who were violating parole and probation who were giving drugs to minors and were violent. We're being caught and released seems it's implied heavily in your book that they were being protected yeah well. I actually one of the kind of important moments in my investigation negation happened about a year after I'd gotten access to Manson's federal parole file that's where I got the body of the record the documentary record of Manson's catch and release release and the others and I took that to a retired district attorney of he'd been the. Da Van is Louis Watt neck and he spread everything out in front of him on his kitchen table in his house and just started shaking his head and saying this is all chicken expletive chicken expletive again and again is so what are you saying. He goes you know. Sometimes this can be explained by incompetence bureaucracy but this is a deliberate pattern of him being taken in and instead of being being number one charge. The charges were dropped number two. He should have also been violated and he wasn't he said somebody to me. He said somebody wanted him out he was more important to somebody outside than he was inside and I said well who could that have been and he said I have no idea but I'd start with looking at federal law enforcement FBI and then local law enforcement Los Angeles PD Sheriff's. I'm saying so you're saying. He was working for someone he. He said he was an informant and I said well. How can I ever find out who he was informing forward. He goes well. That's why they call them informants you. You won't but you should try Tom. You have a chapter in your book on the Black Panther Party and other left wing groups antiwar groups and the government's programs to actively infiltrate and undermine them people might remember how the F. B. I. in this Britain about extensively in the press today how the FBI secretly taped Martin Luther King Junior incent those tapes to his wife and urged King to kill himself that came from the FBI directly. We've seen those documents in the pages of the New York Times and other papers what was going on with these programs in the late nineteen sixties and acknowledging as you do in the book that this starts just to get into the realm of conspiracy what's the connection to the law enforcement agencies in L. A. That you're talking about well the CO Intel pro program when you're talking about the FBI program that hoover started originally in the forties to combat the Klu Klux Klan then it was discontinued in the fifties and then restarted in mid sixties when the panthers had form A. J. Edgar Hoover Governor Ronald Reagan and President Lyndon in Johnston all believe that the panthers and the Left Wing Antiwar Movement where the biggest threat to national security hoover believed that they were being funded by Communists and he needed a to to get this program to infiltrate I to survival and understand stand what these groups were doing the panthers the Antiwar Movement the Free Speech People and eventually to provoke them to commit crimes that they could be arrested for and then after that when that wasn't enough to provoke them to commit acts of murder against one another and you found out that this program was operating in La in southern California at the time. Oh Yeah in Los Angeles and you know when all of this stuff came out in congressional hearings in the early seventies the FBI admitted to the Komo Intel operations and took responsibility for I think eighteen deaths of panthers or black militants that were the result of them provoking one group against guests another okay so Tom. I I get it. Co Intel was real J. Edgar Hoover was undermining Black Panthers and trying to get leftist to fight each other was trying to undermine the antiwar movement movement Charles Manson in the family may be were being protected by law enforcement but then somebody says wait a second way to seek a second. Are you saying that Charles Manson was an FBI asset that he was important to people like J. Edgar Hoover in the FBI. What exactly man are you saying well. Has Lou Watt neck that. Da and a few other people told me in law enforcement and former into all kinds of things some of them just share information some of them are as I said earlier provoked walked by other informants and agents to become fearful paranoid and then attack which is exactly what Manson did. He believed that the panthers were going to retaliate for him. Shooting a black drug dealer who he thought was a panther about a week about a month before the Taylor Bianca murders and he was paranoid and fearful of that. I'm I'm presenting a circumstantial case that all these elements were there to better explain why this happened when we find out the real reason why it happened happened was incorrect the one that was presented. What evidence do you have. You said it's a circumstantial case but it's an incendiary claim was Charles Manson. It's in a law enforcement asset of some kind I could never say that definitively but I have enough people you'll see in the book from law enforcement who worked with assets assets and informants including the head of intelligence at the sheriff's office saying it's good possibility and does that help explain why he may have been protected before absolute eliminators why the family may have been protected absolutely does it help explain why Vincent Bugliosi presented what you say is such a narrow in sensational and and and false narrative of the motive for the murders exactly and then worked so hard to keep my book from being published. Maybe he just didn't want competition in the market. I mean I'm going for the simplest explanation. You understand source or He didn't want any of this information out there. I brought it all to him. And then he started sending threatening letters to to me to my publisher. It wasn't about competition. There have been tons of Manson books written before mine after his and none of them were competition to him. He did not want the truth about what he did at this trial speaking to Tom O'Neil author of Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixties. It's called chaos. We'll be back in a moment with your comments questions and more on Tom. O'Neal's twenty year investigation of the Manson murders on this one I saw me misunderstood support for this podcast and the following message come from Uber Uber is committed to safety and to continuously raising the bar to help make for safer safer journeys for everyone all driver partners go through a multi step safety screen before their first trip including driving and criminal history checks and uber is introducing using a brand new safety technology called ride check which can detect a trip goes unusually off course and check in to provide support to learn more about Uber's commitment to safety eighty visit Uber. Dot Com slash safety when you think of country music you probably have a particular image in mind but as you can imagine the history is way more complicated okay this week on through line we sit down with filmmaker. Ken Burns to talk about his new documentary about the origins of country music through live from NPR the podcast where we go back in time to understand the present. Let's address the problem of conspiracies How do you respond bond. When someone says you don't mind blowing conspiracies they're fun. They're great. They sell books but that's all they are. Usually the simplest explanation is the right one and and here a prosecutor prosecutors laid out a simple case that convicted Charles Manson and members of the family and that's good enough. It's as simple as that I well. I think the problem with that is we need to know who was really involved in how and why these things happen especially something that was so kind of culturally significant as this you know it was a real turning point in American history sexiest. Kinda culminated in this case and represent what people think went went wrong with a whole sixties free love and drug. Ito's I believe there were other people involved in these murders others and there were provocations and I worked really hard not to present anything that I couldn't document in the book because I haven't aversion into being called a conspiracy theorist like probably everyone and instead of finding a like a complete narrative. I just present information. That's provable documented. I've got sixty pages of EDNA. It's to show where the official story is an accurate and invented and you another important moment came when I took some of these documents to the original defense attorneys for Manson and the women and they were outraged. They said that this staff theft has been withheld from them. They would have done an entirely different defense and the prosecution was required by Brady Law to share anything exculpatory. Roy Meaning anything that could impeach one of their own prosecution witnesses for not telling the truth on the stand and I want to point out I mean you uncovered some serious misconduct by Vincent Bugliosi and his team of not only in the courtroom prosecutorial misconduct as you mentioned but also private misconduct. He really became an enemy enemy of yours. I think it's fair to say yeah yeah. He didn't want any of that other information out that involved prior episodes of his own criminal conduct even before he got assigned this this case and then after and some of it is pretty salacious but the only reason I used it was because it also involved court cases you when he was sued for some of the crimes he committed by the victims. He perjured himself. He admitted it later he lied to police. He lied to the media. He was running for office. So you know you have to present kind of a pattern of conduct to support your allegation for the main body of work. which is you know this trial and his conduct and that a- you've you've found out something rather incendiary that I never knew and it's very well documented in the book evidence that Vincent Bugliosi the prosecutor not the defense attorney but the prosecutor prosecutor handpicked the public defender who defended Susan Atkins when she was in grand jury testimony that he essentially manipulated her testimony before the trial even got started before she was even identified publicly as a suspect in the Tate Labianca murders the prosecution learned that she was telling us to cellmates at the jailhouse she was being held on another murder charge carry him and who I mentioned earlier that she and her group were responsible for tate-labianca she had a public defender while court appointed attorney at that point whose representing her in that case and when they realized that she could be a pivotal prosecution witness for them but she was likely not to cooperate they went to a judge in Santa Monica and I've got all all the notes so these hearings that nobody ever seen before our excuse me these meetings at the prosecutions office in Los Angeles and had the judge remove of her legally court appointed attorney and change him switch under her case a former prosecutor named Richard Caballero who did exactly what the prosecution needed him to do and got her to cooperate from that moment on and that was prior to her Manson or anybody being identified in the media as suspects in this case? We shouldn't trust anything that happened after that because from that point on the well was poisoned they planted a prosecutor on and the defense and everything from there in that occurred was scripted by the prosecution office. It's difficult you know in a short amount of time to provide all the evidence I have ab think it is important to emphasize what Baliles he's Co Prosecutor Steven K said to me in an interview on tape on the record when I presented him with all this evidence events and he knew the case actually better than bullied by that point because he stayed in the DA's Office for thirty years he helped prosecute the original trial and three subsequent ones and then he had when I was interviewing him in two thousand and five he was about to retire and he appeared at sixty parole hearings for for Manson Awesome family members over thirty years arguing against their parole and at each of those hearings he had to present a minutely detailed account of their crimes. How why they happened happened. He said you'll never get me to believe any of this happened differently. No matter what you show me than I showed them the documents have and it's in the book he basically sunk into into like a pile of nothingness and his cherish shaking his head saying. I can't believe what I'm seeing here. I don't know what to think. This is Vince his handwriting. This steph was never shared with me or with anybody else. He goes but it's clearly what a different scenario if he did this if he lied about these things as I was showing him then. What else did he lie about. I don't know what to believe about this case anymore now. You don't posit in this book that Manson in the family didn't commit the murders but no but you do posit that there there's enough misconduct enough unreported police activity enough protection that the the verdict if it was known defense attorneys could have been overturned yeah yeah well. That's was actually Stephen. Kay said to me that that day in two thousand and five February when I said to him I go. What do I do with this information now and I could tell he didn't want to say but he said well. You Might WanNa take it to the. Da The current da who was Stephen Cooley and I said what might he do and he said he might call for new trial. Trial overturned the verdicts and call for new trial Tom. The subtitle of your book is Charles Manson the C. I. A. and the secret history of the sixties the CIA is right there in the subtitle in in bold relief and we have to talk about it a lot of people have wondered over the decades how an ex con basically basically illiterate like Charles Manson learned to so adeptly control people with manipulation and with LSD he was a real true expert in in taking over people's minds in their motivations with a combination of affection rejection drugs How did he learn how to do this. What's the circumstantial evidence that you believe leave. That explains how Charles Manson learned how to do this now. We really go down the we sure we we sure do and and it's strange place to go but it's in the title of. Your Book and you write about out in your book how you go down this rabbit hole conspiracy to places where even you don't WanNa go yeah. I I worked really hard to try to stay away and then I kept going back and going back because it was too compelling to ignore in helter skelter in the epilogue. Julio's wrote the One mystery that remains is how Manson learned how to control all these young people's minds so much to the extent that they would go out and kill on command complete strangers with no remorse afterwards that was something that I was kind of haunted by and as I got deeper and deeper in the documents I discovered that when Manson was released and went to San San Francisco in in the spring of sixty seven was assigned to this parole officer who was doing drug research in The Hague at the same time he started frequenting the newly opened Haight Ashbury free medical clinic which opened in June of sixty seven and Manson's parole officer was conducting research out of there along with another psychiatric well-known guy named Dr Louis Jolly in West who was recruiting hippies to to study the effects of LSD on them out of this clinic and what came out in the mid seventies was after congressional investigations sparked by Seymour Hersh is reporting in the New York Times was that the CIA had a secret program twenty years old called operation. I'm K- alterra where they were learning trying to learn how to create Manchurian candidates. People who would assassinate kill other people on command okay so Lewis is John West was you establish a new book was a CIA researcher in using LSD for mind control and who knows and hypnosis and you also established wish that Charles Manson spent some significant time in very close proximity to this man adding clinic in San Francisco and during the period that they were both there the three or four months from about June to September October of sixty seven Manson emerged with this group of women mostly young women couple men who have become com exactly what the ultra program was trying to create program killers who would kill without question. Well book is full of circumstantial evidence conspiracy conspiracy theories plenty of evidence. I want to say it's a very compelling read. This story took over your life for twenty years. He got a book out of it. just briefly. Are you happy. You did it. Oh boy that's a big question sometimes. I still wish I'd never said. Yes to the assignment other times it was you know some of the most exciting times in my life was chasing these leads down and and and getting these documents so I guess today I'll say I'm glad I did it especially when I do an interview like this. You have to read it for yourself. The book is chaos Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixties. Tom O'Neil thank you so much. Thank you appreciate today's conversation was produced by Haley blasingame and edited by Orion Donovan Smith to learn more about them and the rest of the team visit the one eight dot org slash staff. This program comes to you from W. A. M. U. Part of American University in Washington gets distributed by NPR DR until we meet again. I'm todd thanks so much for listening. This is one A. Uh.

Charles Charles Manson Tom O'Neil murder Vincent Bugliosi Los Angeles CIA Sharon Tate prosecutor NPR Manson Hansen Black Panther Party San Francisco officer life magazine panthers FBI Jim New York Times Todd
The Manson Family

Killer Knowledge

28:43 min | 6 months ago

The Manson Family

"In the nineteen sixties were a decade of divisiveness and change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure. This era of counterculture ended in bloodshed the summer summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. Welcome to kill her knowledge. A park cast original. I'm Kara Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as two players go head to head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders shocked. The Nation violent mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top up in serial killer. Ted Bundy who craved notoriety. This week we're looking back at the Manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests ready to show off their incredibly deep. True crime expertise hosts of multiple multiple. PODCASTS here on the park network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. Are you ready to face off. YEA drags trepidation. You our listeners. Play along as we find out who has killer Hiller Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer knowledge and find other par- cast originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from. Can you our listeners. Leave US review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay off the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. ABC broken up into three rounds. Fair warning the questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer you. The point for that question and incorrect answer gives the other player the chance to get it right greg. If you buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa your buzzer sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two to while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the park asked golden headphones. Make sense to you. Yes okay let's play killer knowledge here we go with round one for this first round. The questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati. atty Ohio and a father who was a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boys school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself. Living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious. Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Miss Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing stealing a money? Be A gun. C- Cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct gun. It was after that incident. Manson was returned to the boys school but he ran away. Way again okay. So we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school this time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Manson I get arrested for? As a child a arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'm I'm going to say is I was burglary. Burglary is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them. Eh Grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old. He was then sent to the very strict. Indiana boys. School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero. While at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a Defense Mechanism Zim in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his his defense tactic a the insane game? Be the bully game. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game now. Manson was Small Mall as a boy Even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five two and five six top. So as a very short skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game name would give him leverage and convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone right. Greg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boys school with some other kids. They were eventually caught in a stolen car in Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he would do years later. But from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers to maximum security facilities. But he didn't didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster. Alvin creepy carpets. Here's question number over four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A PIANO BE- Guitar See. See Her Monica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa. Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways as while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours studying a religion before deciding. It was too crazy for him for question number. Five what religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours studying a Christian science dance be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. See Scientology Scientology. Is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate in McNeil Island. It's even been reported that. He declared himself a scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion story goes he declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa. Four Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long way to go. Even though Manson was still imprisoned prison in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned to join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly want to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors Greg. The beach boys a that. That is incorrect. Okay Miss the door for you. You can guess I I it would the doors also incorrect. Oh go ahead to be monkey. Is the monkeys those the Rupert Band monkees member. Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving time in nineteen sixty five. So the point tally. Ali Doesn't change for Greg One now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released A? He wanted to stay in prison be he wanted his record cleared saying he wanted his cellmate released to greg a he wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he had spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that Greg now has two point. Sodas four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know Charles Manson the earlier so as we bring this round close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson made his way to San Francisco. Right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and love of hallucinogenic drugs. And he began attracting attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number eight which spiritual figure did several followers followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the Dalai Lama see Mohammed Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that is right. Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only I pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five to do in favor of Vanessa soon. Manson and his family of six women move towards Los Angeles Settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine which member of the the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer. A Dennis. Wilson B Brian Wilson. Listen see Kara Wilson. Greg Be Brian Wilson. That is incorrect. Afraid do you have a guess. A Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking on Sunset Boulevard and took them to his rental home Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire to be musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry. St Contacts Including Executive Terry Melcher. Who at the time lived on Cielo drive in Los Angeles okay? The score stands at six to two in favor. Aver Vanessa now. After Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round. What was the name of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based A to Panga ranch be spawn ranch see cal Amigos ranch? Greg be spun rich that is correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty five. Acre movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California and it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push his armegeddon conspiracies. Okay with that point Greg. Up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've followed Manson from troubled child to full blown California -fornia cult leader when we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Why looking at me welcome back? You're listening to killer knowledge. I'm Carter Roy podcast host I Greg Paulson and Vanessa. Richardson are here this week. were all learning about one of the most notorious Killers Charles Manson and his family. Let's see we're Greg and Vanessa stand with points. We have Vanessa with six and greg with three still very much in contention by before we get into round two. Let's get a little rules. Update the questions are still multiple choice. ABC and correct answer is worth one point each. However there's a twist in this round called the killer question? That question is worth three points because there are no multiple choice options you who either know the answer or you don't and you better hope you know it because one player will be eliminated at the end of this round. Let's keep playing here. We go with around two as we learned earlier Manson educated himself while in prison besides Qatar and scientology he also took classes that taught Dale. Carnegie's Book How to win friends and influence people. Well that book is retrospectively ably credited with transforming Manson from an awkward and uninfluential person to the charismatic cult leader. He would become the second round dives into Manson's teachings and manipulations leading up to him becoming a murderer mastermind. Let's start with question number. Eleven and which nineteen sixty eight Beatles. Album did Charles Manson convinced his followers contained a prophecy for the end of the world. A Abbey road be the white album. See Magical mystery tour Vanessa. Sta Bi the white album the Beatles which is also called the white album is the correct. Answer the album which sold over three million copies in its first week in the. US was a huge success and is the band's most certified album in history a Manson believed it contained hidden lyrics. It's about a revolution and used it to preach about an impending race war. Okay Vanessa getting on the board and round two now with seven points. Greg has three now. One song from the white album was more influential and Manson delusions than any other. I see some head. Nodding looks like we're GonNa have a a tight race on this one question number. Twelve what Beatles Song did Manson use to describe his imagined impending racial conflict. I am the Walrus. Be Yellow submarine. See Helter skelter. Greg see helter skelter. That is very correct and well performed as well. That song title was. Also the name of Vincent Instant Bugliosi's famous book about the crimes and trial of the words. Helter skelter would later be found written in blood on the refrigerator At these Sharon tate murder scene with that answer Greg. You got a point in round two. So you're up to four points to Vanessa. Seven again killer. Question is out. There were three one question could be right back in a very tight race now while Manson mastered the way of speaking to his family that kept them believing his outlook on on the world for question number thirteen. What psychotropic drug did he also give his followers to manipulate them and persuade them of his vision? A LSD be heroin. See Ecstasy Greg a LSD LSD. Is the right answer. That brings Greg to five points to Vanessa's seven points. Manson's vision took a tragic tragic turn on the night of August. Eighth Nineteen Sixty nine on the family had killed before especially in hopes to start the race war. Manson had talked so much about but it was the murders on Cielo drive in Los Angeles that captured national attention. Since one of the victims was actress. Sharon tate wife life of director Roman Polanski that night Manson sent four of his followers to the House to kill everyone there for question number fourteen. What family member reportedly said? I'm the devil. I'm here to do the devil's business before they began killing healing people a Susan. Atkins be Tex Watson C.. Linda Sabin Greg a Susan Atkins that is incorrect. Oh my goodness ludicrous. chickened out Tex Watson when NASA is correct thinking I was thinking woman interesting. I was just thinking about this a little like you thought it might have been shows you you you know where my mind goes characters right all these names you knew it was Tex Watson yes it's now eight to five and remember we still have the killer question. Pop Up worth three points and one player will be eliminated at the end of the round. Now as the Manson family left the crime scene after the murders Susan as an Atkins wrote a message on the front door question number fifteen. What word did she write a pig? Be Eh di Sea Devil Greg. A pig that is correct atkins wrote the word pig using Sharon. Tate's blood on front door. Yeah it's probably one of the most talked about details surrounding the murders and the word is connected to another song from the Beatles. White album called hauled piggies which was an anti establishment anthem. Now that brings the score. Eight to six in favour of Vanessa. Hope here that that sound means it is time for the killer question. Remember killer question is not multiple choice. You either know the answer or you don't and the questions were three points in this case Greg you would take the lead Vanessa. You could really start to put it away so buzzing if you know the answer question question number sixteen the killer question. One of the Manson families victims at Tate's home was the heiress to which famous coffee the company Vanessa Folder Twenty five year old Abigail folder was one of the five victims. Yes she was at the House with her boyfriend who was friends with Tate's husband Roman Polanski now by taking the question. Vanessa has moved up to eleven points to Greg's six now. The murder scene on Cielo drive in August nineteen sixty nine wasn't discovered until the next morning by the housekeeper the Manson family wouldn't be connected to it until weeks later but that didn't stop the family from killing again before their arrest. The same four killed Sharon Tate and her guests joined by two more family members murdered Leno and Rosemary Labianca in their Los feeless. Home the final question for this round question number seventeen how long After the Sharon tate murders to the Manson family kill again. The next morning be the next afternoon soon. See the next night Greg I would say be the afternoon. I'm going to take a stab at the next morning At is incorrect it was the next night a Manson accompanied the family the next night to the law Bianca home but only gave orders before leaving hand allowing his followers to carry out the crime. And with that question. We've come to the end of round two with the score. You're eleven vanessa to six four Greg. Unfortunately that means we have to say goodbye to Greg. You brought so much killer knowledge alleged to the show. Thank you so much for being here. We're going to take a short break and come back with the last three questions of the show with the Manson family murders carried out. It's time for the aftermath. Come back to hear how much Vanessa knows about the Manson family punishments. Welcome back to killer knowledge. I'm Carter Roy. We've been quizzing. Zing Park cast hosts. Greg Poulsen Vanessa. Richardson about the Manson family murders. During the summer of nineteen sixty nine with three questions left. It's time to cover the aftermath of that crime when we left round to greg had six points to Vanessa's eleven points and that means Greg was eliminated from the game so now in round three only Vanessa. We'll be answering questions to win some amazing prizes now. This time points don't matter but right answers answers do here the rules. There are three multiple choice questions. Each with two answer options A. or B. so you'll have a fifty fifty shot. Each correct answer is worth an amazing prize. Get One answer right. And you'll get a spotify premium account free for one year. If you get two to questions right you win a role in an episode of the podcast original unsolved murders hosted by me. And if you get all three questions right in this round you'll win. The exclusive car cast golden headphones. And the chance to come back for one of our best shows to compete against other killer knowledge champions Vanessa. Are you ready. I am so ready. Look ready here. We go with round three now. It wasn't the Tate Labianca murders that got the Manson family initially arrested question number eighteen. What criminal charges I brought law enforcement to the spawn ranch to arrest the Manson family before police realized they were the killers? It's a robbery. Be Car theft. Technically robbery is car. Theft is robbery but it specifically be car theft. That is the correct answer. You get spotify premium free for one year now. The trial of the Manson family began in June nineteen seventy it included seven counts of murder question number nineteen which Manson family family member testified against Charles Manson and the other cult members during their murder. Trial a TEX Watson B.. Linda Indika Sabin That would be be Linda Kosabe Ian Yes to for to technically Kosabe. You did not participate in the killings. So she was granted immunity in exchange for testimony. Okay Vanessa that means you have one these spotify premium account free for year a role on unsolved murders hosted by me and you are still in the running for the podcast golden headphones and chance to come back to compete on more killer knowledge. Okay Vanessa. We are down to the final question of this episode and we want to end it on a question to really hear how deep your Manson family knowledge goes so so question number. Twenty which former Manson family member unsuccessfully attempted to assassinate President Gerald Ford in Nineteen Seventy Five A. Lynette squeaky FROMM BE PATRICIA Krenwinkel. I'm going with squeaky. Lynette squeaky fromm. You got all three right. Meaning you get spotify premium. Mm Free for one year. A role in an episode of the podcast original unsolved murders and the exclusive par cast golden headphones are yours plus. We could see you back here again to compete against other killer knowledge winners. How do you feel fantastic? I mean obviously. I'm so excited I. I'm so thrilled for all of especially those podcast headphones. I'm so excited all of it. Thank you so much. This was a great opportunity. And thanks to Greg. Thanks to both you for being here. Both Greg and Vanessa you brought so much great true crime expertise to the show and again remind our listeners about the shows you host here on the podcast network works so they can keep learning from youth. Thank you okay. Well my definitely serial killers of course Cults as well with Greg and I Female criminals is also so fascinating. Look at tails different spin mythology. Mythical monsters not guilty famous fates and secret societies eighties. Okay all amazing park shows for anybody out there who's listening for a new podcast. Listen to you. And how about you greg. My shows are secret societies with Vanessa. Of course serial. The real killers colts those three with Vanessa. I also host singly singularly haunted places urban legends and podcast Crime Bites Nights. Well we can't end the show without wrapping up. Our journey through the life of Charles Manson from a young age Manson was on a path to destruction. It extended extended from petty theft to murder mastermind and in the end after all the brainwashing manipulation in murder Charles Manson died in prison on November nineteenth. Two thousand seventeen. He lived to be eighty three years old to everyone listening. Thank you for playing killer knowledge with us us. Let us know what you thought about. Today's episode by leaving the Review Wherever you're listening and by reaching out on facebook and instagram at par cast in twitter at podcast network. Thank you can also listen to more episodes of killer. Knowledge and other park has two originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Carter Roy come back next week to hear who will become the next true crime. Expert killer knowledge was created by Max Cutler Zeh podcast studios original channel it is executive produced by next cutler produced by Kristen GITA MIRA in Jonathan ratliff sound design by Kristen osservato killer Knowledge Stars Carter Roy thanks to our sponsor better for it a new podcast from A._D._p.. Each episode features visionaries talking candidly about mistakes. They've made in their businesses. How they worked their way through them and came out better for it? Listen on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Manson Greg Poulsen Vanessa Manson Linda Sabin Greg Vanessa Richardson murder Indiana Manson spotify Greg Poulsen Sharon tate Greg Zero California Greg Won Carter Roy ABC US facebook twitter Greg I Ted Bundy
In Memoriam 2019

Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast

1:34:50 hr | 6 months ago

In Memoriam 2019

"Hey guys as you know our entire catalogue including interviews with almost three hundred guests and hundred tump. Mini episode are now free just about everywhere where podcast download is true and as a reminder listeners who support the show by contributing to patron dot com slash Gilbert Gottfried get exclusive access to new bonus content early access to live events including an event. That's coming up soon. Macao behind the scenes photos and videos and more cool stuff and again. Thank you to everyone who supports us. Show on Patriae on dot com slash Gilbert Godfrey. We couldn't. I'm doing it without you. Well without some of you we could but let's be honest Hi Ditches Gilbert Godfrey Godfried and this is Gilbert Godfrey Jimmy seizing colossal podcast with my co host. Frank Santo uh-huh Padre as you all know by now this podcast this pretty much a love letter to old Hollywood you show this week where paying tribute to the talented unforgettable performers whose left us in two two thousand nine hundred nineteen on our annual in Memoriam episode and just as we were last year ear frank and I are joined by our friend and fellow show Biz obsessive Oscar nominated aided screenwriter and producer. And I think you wore an orange wage. He wore an honorary wage through. He wore an orange wage to the KADEMI award. And I heard like every star. They're said where can I get one. But he thought it was something to promote the citrus industry workers. It's sort of a couple of people knew I went to Syracuse. Some thought Oh you're supporting the Syracuse Orange Nope nope not and now the auspices giving special to seize rural Maryland realize it costs and he sprint. Do Sir I J- Weber guys. It's great he's back writer later and produce yes h as the only repeat guest. WHO's under one hundred years old and this guy's invite me back because I'm the least likely to die so you're right? It's like kind of a sure thing. Take out a gun and shoot back. What are we refer to you tonight? Guest eulogize her h Weber. Well in that case. Don't fucking talk to me. I mean angel of death. There was a second one of our listeners. Who Stole Your Thunder who wore an orange? Christ I heard word I heard well. Let's hope that trend continues Liam nation in. Yeah he's a big fan by the wait. We'll know in a few days. I mean this probably aired by then if Scott and Larry are nominated for Dolemite so I voted for them today. Eh One should be you know. There's an expectation that they're going to wear an orange wedge pin. Okay shame and if they do win one will pull his other love us. But I'm not sure they let us that much. When did they announce we're recording this? On January seventh nomination voting ended today. The nominations are announced the morning of the thirteenth thirteenth. Okay so okay fingers crossed. Yeah that's how well by the time this is. You're hearing this. You'll know I love those guys. Do fingers crossed. They were they. They should have been nominated for Ed Wood. They should they should have been nominated for problem. China that's V O. Well where do we begin. We lost some good people in two thousand nineteen. It seems like we lose good people every year. We do this and Mike Mike is Morbid like us so he said I'd like to do this again. I'd like to pay tribute to some of these people. He's also a listener. Oh Yeah Oh yeah it's You get our vibe. Of course I get hurt and since we have a particular fondness for character actors on this show. Why don't we start there? Great with the as I'm not doing this alphabetically. Let's talk about Rene Aubergine Wa. Who is somebody actually wanted on this show and never got to him which is a recurring theme? I was GONNA say it'd be saying that a lot of I wish as a campaign that a lot but there's also people we did manage to get on the show so we'll talk to people who agreed to do this show and then died a daily. WHOA look no no no no? But that's a whole other lists he could do. That's a whole other episode but Rene Aubergine Wad. Did everything born right here. In New New York City which is also recurring a recurring motif. Yeah how many of these people were born in New York there. We'll see. There's a lot of overlap actually between a lot of these people a lot of overlap relapse. The Guy did everything he was in stock company he was in Mash he was in McCabe. And Mrs Miller. A movie I love. He was the original father. Mulcahy yes Ellen Ash asche the the the structure of brewster mccloud with with him a sorta speaking to the camera lecturing right and gradually turning into a bird yes still one of the most amazing things in all of film. Did you do research on him. Did you find that he was the great great great His Napoleon sister was his great great. Great grandmothers isn't that weird. Oh my God yeah now. He kind of reminded me at times times of and now of course getting a mental block on Mr Smith From Los Base. So Dr Smith you mean Jonathan Aris. Yeah Jonathan Dan Harris. Yeah because I thought here too was a New Yorker and he always came across like us kind of British. Yeah Yeah Yeah. If I thought he was French I mean. I thought he was French French. But born a man right. Wow Yeah he's also only one of thirty two actors to appear with the original Star Trek casts he was in a star trek six Six movie and also a spin off. That's pretty cool. Because he was in a cast member of deep space nine. That's that's only been done thirty two times which is not. That's not a lot of people considering. How many star Trek things there have been now he? He's in the King Kong he's in the Dino Dino dealer RENTA's Kinko he's in the big boss how which will talk about it. He sent some good successful movies. Yeah by the way he was in the movie and he turned down a part in the TVs. Here that's correct. TV career and he was on Boston. Legal he was on Bentsen he had a big career. He did a lot of stuff and he was. He was in a movie that I addition for my best which friends Vampire Satele yes. How what did you audition? I guess like the Assistant of the vampire killer chemistry read with him and not have chemistry. Yeah they're apparently going to be in my book Our friend Craig Berko. I think wasn't was in Boston. Legal with Rene and set some Nice things about him. He's apparently a beloved guy married the same woman for fifty-six years did a lot of charity. Garrity work with the Doctors Without Borders and would have been perfect for this show and yes I'm GonNa say a lot but he was just it was on my. I have this giant Greaseboard at home with just just like two hundred names on it. And it's just it's heartbreaking. When I have to get that marker out and just he popped up and everything and who was sick he was a relatively young men anyway? How old was he seventy nine? Yeah I mean by today's standards. Yeah here's another great character actor who passed At seventy eight Gina was actually in pursuit of this person. And that's Sir the Great Robert Forster Tour epic yet another New Yorker medium cool. Oh Yeah Jackie Brown. Oh yeah why full stuff. I read somewhere His Dad was an elephant. Wrangler Barnum and Bailey Circus says cool and as a tribute to his dad. It's why Ryan Jackie Brown. You can see a ringling brothers poster over his shoulder in tribute to his father which is very very cool good movie Jackie Brown. Yeah that was a part of a lifetime for him. You know it's nice when Tarintino rescues those actors I love it. I feel like those. That movie was under appreciated. She ended the time coming off of a pulp fiction. Yeah and I like to be. It's like he's being honest. He says as you know I. I didn't like the way I was aging. So I had some hair plugs up and and I thought the here he's you said meaning it to the audience medium cool's a movie people need to see. Yeah Yeah we had Peter Bonner's who was the sidekick who was the other the other guy the sound man wow in in in medium cool on the show and stupidly. We never asked him about it. Because we just talked about the Bob Newhart show. I've seen it in a theater last last year. The Metro graph downtown here. New York had a screening of medium cool. Because I'd never seen it on a big screen and it was. It's it's it's a really incredible brought up. Larry Carrizo Ski. Our our friend Larry said he was the guy literally the nicest man and an amazing storyteller so once again I'll kick I'll kick myself and not getting him on the show and and tying into another name we'll talk about about later When Robert Forster worked with Pam Grier in Jackie Brown? That was actually the second time they'd worked together. The first being in Larry Cohen's movie original Gangsta. Oh Very Larry Co and we will get the two later up. You know. He was in he was supposed to be. Sheriff Harry Truman in the original twin peaks and couldn't do it. And then when Michael. Keane turn down for the reboot. He got he got to play that part casting. What if to? He's in the. He's good on the descendants that Alexander Payne movie. Really good in everything thing Apparently there was a one out of a seven hour audition for him to get that part and Jackie Brown. Did you find that research which is very interesting which he called I media role in twenty five years. And here's good research on him. He was a member of the triple nine society right. He was like a real like a legitimate genius. Yeah yeah an I. Q in the above ninety nine ninety nine percentile. Oh boy so one percent of the people that are tested and they put his dumb mm-hmm when he was in the Blackhawks flections in a golden eye cerebral possible they put in. Here's another character actor. who was an occasional leading man who pass it only seventy five rutger? Our Dutch born in the Netherlands can't say that was born in New York work. I always remember his speech that he gave him. They say he ad libbed it it and he says runner yeah. I remember seeing ships on fire off the shoulder of. You're you're a Ryan. Oh that speech does tears in the rain yeah. They said he gave that He. He thought that himself he apparently he rewrote it the night before. But that that final line of tears in rain he came up with which is amazing and he actually he. He turned down the lead in. Dos Boot to to to take that part in bladerunner. All Interesting Roy Batty Yes yes but also very you ever see. A Dutch film called soldier of Orange Verhoeven made with verhoeven a few times because I also saw and that that he was behoves first choice to play robocop. Oh and then I guess like Peter Weller like bloom away on the audition and got the part but that initially It was supposed to be rutger. Hauer as we're okay. And he's in a very creepy film I think the Hitch Hitch. Yes yes he. Is this what I found in my research. They had an aversion to violence. He was afraid of violence right and it because he was born in the middle of World War Two and yet he was in all these violent movies he was born during the German occupation. Any like swore off off those roles at a certain point pitcher nighthawks the stallone picture. Where he's he's a terrorist Blade runner Either one of your familiar with the movie called Blind Fury No. He was a blind man. So sort of Seattle Daniels laughing. Do you know this movie produced by Tim. Matheson yes hot one time podcast. I I remember. And that's where I think at one point. He's kidnapped and he's in a van supposedly set you genius that He. He's counting so by counting. He knows rose how far he's been and how far to go back. He can tell the speed of the van. Well it's like how how. How fucking Al Pacino knew everything that was going on incentives? WHOA wait a minute? No no he would know that. And but yeah because I think they threw away his stick and so he knew this day would build. You know cushy she's like you know Cassia seem like two thousand twelve two thousand and then he kills the two guys and walks all the way back and confined and where the stick is even though he's born. I've got to see this one other cool thing I read about Rutger Hauer the author Anne Rice Who was the best selling author forever? She wrote interview with the Vampire which became a huge movie but was the best selling book for a really long time when she wrote the book. She always pictured Rutger Hauer as Lestat. Oh interesting that it took so long for the Hollywood process to do its thing and for it to become a movie that by the time it became a movie he was way too old and they sort of took the film in a different direction in and it went to Tom Cruise but in her head she when she was writing the book luke she always wanted it to be rutger hauer no she didn't. She didn't picture Tom Cruise. No and he's putting Lady Hawke to the Richard Donner movie with Michelle. Another film House Hobo with a shotgun the hitter. No you know. There's another one to many play a killer like a well he played. Kelly played a killer a lot for a guy who had a fear of violence. Did a lot of charity work too. I do deep dives into these people's lives and you don't realize unfortunately till they're gone you know How philanthropic they are or altruistic? Here's another actor Seymour Ca. Sell a member of the castle company. who was in? I mean everything over two hundred. IMDB credits from Detroit. Love Him in Steve. Bruce Amis direct to`real debut trees lounge if you've seen that movie. Yeah Oh yeah. Yeah and also part of the Wes Anderson Troop Yup Yup later in life. Ten men tinman rushmore plot instead in that film with Gregg Canir and I think Matt Damon where they are so he's on. It turned out a lot. He's he's a sleazy are out of his league agent in that any. When it comes out there Shyam East twins HAECO's Cronkite kids are GonNa have a field the field day IT. It is amazing the dialogue that you remember movies that nobody saw his clip during the Oscars in memorial. That stuck Gilbert assembles. It what is the. What is some early Rutger hauer films? I once killing me while Paul sitting behind your maybe he'll do a little research for you. It will tell us a year later. Early Greek me some Rutger Hauer our H.. Hugh Ha you er the. We'll get back to you next Thursday. One of my sisters had a Corsica and really. Yeah I don't think Hollywood really ever knew what what quite what to do with him. He was in that movie. That George Clooney made dangerous. Confessions Dangerous Dangerous Minds Sassan. Yeah so so wonderfully creepy in there. 'cause he's like he poses killing killing a guy and he wants his picture taken. I have a couple of his early movies. Good hard to remember. Yeah the Wilby Conspiracy Gilbert's big on the wilby will be cassie. I love that eighty tipple. Yeah the year of the cancer. What about spiders the motorcycle move? I'm in the mid Seventies. Let's see what else Max havilar now soldier of Orange Pastorale. Nineteen forty three EH mysteries. These are probably Dutch films. Yes yes nighthawks nighthawks. Was I think the first time that the your Rica there I remember Eureka Jean Ham Genus Ostermann weekend is at the one Santa Rita part now now flesh and blood. No problem child six wanted dead or alive girl. The Legend of the Holy Drinker Blind Fury. He's going to tell you about five minutes or male. Oh it wasn't rutger our Tim Thomas the blood of heroes. By the way we couldn't do this for Seymour because it's two hundred something. Craze credits are nuts. You've seen ten men Barry Levinson. He's in that he's in Dick. Tracy you pointed without. He worked for Wes Anderson Grain. Rushmore royal tenenbaums a really good indie called in the soup. I never a fun movie. Here's a little fun Trivia about him he reportedly gave slash the rockstar slash his nickname. Oh were they hanging out apparently was was friends with Seymour. Cosell son uh-huh so there you go about that crazy nine hundred Rinaldi rutger hauer killing me. It hold on we got a couple more here. Wedlock past midnight split-second beyond justice and buffy the vampire slayer player. You're out Gilbert. It's not rucker. Our really should have common. Yeah it's Joey Adams nominated nominated for an Oscar by the way seamer for faces was Arnold Stang. They're often confused. Here's a here's a character actor of character actors Rip Torn died at eighty. My God yeah a great character and also a great character famously fought with Dennis Hopper and and wound up being removed and fought with from from from easy rider and fought with Norman mailer with a hammer And it's on Youtube clips him in the head with a hammer and then they just start wrestling on the ground. Yes yeah yeah. That's a great moment born in Texas Study with the least At least Strasbourg in the actors studio That that male or picture picture is nuts. It is really crazy. I think Marcia Maze in there somewhere right after a trip triple shot it out in the Hamptons River one summer triple check that. Yeah he He said he was doing it just to just because he wanted to he wanted to help you get into character was nuts and mailer bit. His zere bishop a portion of. It doesn't look like he's sort of often the distance when he walks over to him and hits him with the hammer and then they just kind of keep the camera rolling. It's crazy. He was an odd guy who had some Some run INS with a lot of different people and of course there's that incident in two thousand ten when he broke into a bank and Connecticut thinking it was his house right Iran. You remember this. Because he had a he had a snoot full thought he lived there and he was arrested for it was great and defending your life absolutely absolutely with a former podcast scarcely grandly grass yes yeah and and Larry Sanders is maybe my favorite. TV Show of all time is nominated six times. I think For that part endlessly quotable based on Freddie Dakota of a yes Johnny Carson's actual producer and once again a line I remember he was when he was in When he was in What's your call it we just Larry Sanders Sanders show? He I think they mentioned the go-goes And he goes yeah. Shame about her. She had Sich a pretty face to there. are a million quotable lines of of ripped horns if you go back watch that series a good in three three movies to recommend the Cincinnati kin man who fell to Earth yes. He's good in a movie called payday. See if you guys can and can Can find those and also terry southern wrote the part of George the lawyer for him in an easy ride when you guys had a falling out with Honda. When you have Peter Font on the podcast? He talked about that he did. Yeah I think he sued him. I think he sued. Dennis Hopper was on Leno and told and told a A tale out of school about a hopper hopper suitable one. Yeah that was. That was a a really long standing. Feud the men in black films too. I mean truly wonderful. There's a guy could just never be bad in anything. Here are a couple of other names on to move on to actresses we lost Diane Carroll. who was a pioneer a legend? Yes born in the Bronx mm-hmm you ever meet her work with her guilt. Now Yeah start out as a fashion model big career as an actress she worked with everybody. Sidney Poitier Paul Newman She got an Oscar nomination in for movie called Claudine with I Jones is very frigging American woman to win a Tony very good. And the first African American actress to star in her own series or do even appear in her in her own series when she wasn't playing a domestic so yeah she And she was a very nice lady. I got to talk to her chiller fest. Yeah why invite her on the show I oh I don't know idea 'cause I'm an idiot billion well. I know a lot of credit that she was married victim mode and so she must have had other. Yeah other showbiz stories. She's a bunch of times. Yeah Yeah Yeah. There's a lot of good work. Eighty four. There's a great story about her. That the Oscar's were scheduled for a few days. After Martin Luther King Junior was assassinated and the Kademi always being a little behind the times They were going to go on with the show. And Diane Carol and a couple other actors got together and said we're going to boycott the Oscar. I know that if you don't push back the the show And it was it was. It was her. Sammy Davis Junior Sydney Party Wow rod steiger and I'm forgetting the the WHO the other Rutger Hauer Louis Armstrong very Because of whow of her pushing that you cannot have the Oscar's just a few days after this. This is a national tragedy so they pushed back the Oscars. Here's and delayed the show so that you know that you know out of out of reverence. That's a great story that I did not find. Yeah she cheated a lot of wonderful work speaking of models who became actresses. Peggy Lipton passed away at seventy two beautiful woman Anna New Yorker by the way Diane Carols the Bronx to Peggy Lipton was Ju-. She was Peggy Lipchitz. Yeah nothing getting. Pass you ever Quincy Jones. Who still is the ultimate dream guest for this podcast? Ask if there's one if I had one wish Quincy Jones on this podcast for eleven hours point see see come on for one minute. Talk About Marlon Brando. fucking Richard Pryor and then you can leave that was memorial you realize if you had had peggy on. There was probably a good chance that Quincy had told her that story back in the day she probably would've details about it. Oh this is arecibo invite Rashida Jones and if she knows the story we'll just get closer and closer to quincy five more Rut guys talk out of my head here. Could make up the titles and you wouldn't know did tell you'll tell him he'll tell you afterward she got four emmy nominations replaying Julie Barnes on the MoD squad which I didn't know and then she stopped working for a long time about fifteen years twin peaks when peaks. Yeah she also by the way I had a relationship with Paul McCartney Martigny and Elvis Presley. Wow now we really miss. Aw Gas at an opportunity. We're GONNA s cybill shepherd to come on the show Mingka. She dated Elvis. And she's she's got she's got to have stories. Here's good trivia about Peggy Lipton. She Co wrote Frank. Sinatra's hit La is my lady. How about that that that is some with Quincy and Marilyn Alan Bergman that's what I found two more actresses who were famous for I think to most audiences for television Kaye Ballard Gilbert. Oh Ninety Ninety three. She was one of mine. She was calibrates worked and toured with Spike Jones. That's how long she had been in the business. You know cake heat. Okay Ballard with before your time a little Desi Arnez show the Desi Arnez created called the mothers. Yes from Greece. Are there actress Eve Arden. Eight Harden She worked at Perry Komo's show she was discovered doing impressions of Maurice Chevalier. At at age five she went back to Vaudeville. She was one of the few surviving vaudeville performers Had A big stage career had had a big TV career. Catherine Bilotta change your name to Kaye. Ballard look her up she did some really really great stuff. Katherine Helmond passed away unknown to most audiences from soap. And he's the boss Yeah Everybody loves Raymond and everybody loves Raymond and she was in that one one with the while we're forgetting everything that guy from Monty Python Oh she was in Brazil very good family plot. Yeah yeah she's in family plot but find. She's in time bandits to Talking about Terry Gilliam. She was one of those and the movie overboard. Gary Marshall Movie. She was one of those people who worked worked a long time before gaining any kind of notoriety but she was very versatile the only actor to appear in all eighty eight episodes of soap. I only one. I didn't know that she was great. You did great Great Research on top of it this year. Her friend Tony Danza said. She was ace's before she died. I sang to her. I played Ukulele. I played I go to pieces by del L.. Shannon I really really miss her Again another much loved person she She wore a bikini on. Who's the boss in her sixties? So you know what. Let's let something you admire about some props for that As long as we're talking about TV actresses Valerie Harper I actually got to know a little bit Not Jewish Gilbert wrote a morgenstern. Jewish watchi- sad. Ed is that Jewish women would come up to her all the time saying please tell me you're Jewish and shoot say I I'm not Jewish but wrote a still is ago. Her roots were a European french-canadian. Oh she study party with John Cassavetes. Wow joint second city in Chicago and was still working on alive. Second city show when she got the Mary Tyler Moore Show which by the way is turning fifty this year if you wanna feel old and it It made her a star and then of course the spin off Rhoda back in the days we talk about when there were three three TV channels. Yeah everybody watched the same shows just like everybody watched the mash finale. Everybody wants yeah. Everyone show her running series. The street read in her wedding gown. Yup It was I read a stat Fifty two million people fifty two million watched that episode of Rhoda about that And it was it was the the highest rated TV episode of the seventies and it held that record until roots at the end of the decade up until that that night of of Rotas wedding it became the second most watched episode of anything on TV only surpassed by the birth of little ricky on. I love Lucienne fifty three. You'll never see those days again. Everybody's watching or the mash finale. Like a hit. Show a hit network show now gets three million people watching. It's like that's that's unbelievable. I remember it's like years ago. You could go up to anybody on the earth the day after and say. Hey did you see on such and such and everybody's so water cooler show. They used to call like laughing often. Yeah laughing anything then if you saw it everybody else on the earth and all told us that there was a plumbing coming problem in in In New York because so you know about this because so many people were watching mash that everybody got up to use the toilet at the same time. Everybody took the same bathroom the break they said they said about shelves like Milton. Berle and Sid Caesar with the the The rest of war. You could see it. Lowered believe it at U. P.. They said that you could see the rest of Wall Loa lower lower when there was a commercial break because so many people watch times will never come again. Gill Gill is there. Something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals. Yes you is a goal. I didn't realize that better better. I can only hope to improve. Move better help. We'll assess your needs and match you with your own. Licensed professional therapist can do this online. You can start communicating and under twenty four hours. It's not a crisis line. It's not self-help it's actually professional. Counseling done securely online. Everything is online now including therapy. There's a broad range of expertise and better helps counselor network which may not be locally available in many areas? But you log onto your anytime you send a message to your counselor and you get timely family in thoughtful responses plus you can schedule a weekly video or phone sessions. It's affordable it's more affordable the traditional offline counseling and financial aid is available. Double What do you think of that. visit better help dot com slash Gilbert. That's better help. H. E. L. P. N.. Enjoying the over seven hundred thousand people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced Ian Spread Channel special offer for Gilbert Godfrey Jr amazing colossal podcast listeners. Get Ten percent end of your first month at better. Hell Dot com slash Gilbert. She's also in a movie. You you guys have talked about a bunch of times Freebie and the sure. She's good in that she chapter two out James Caan who Alec Baldwin Soon was said he interviewed James Bond and he said you worked with so many great people. Great Director Great Actors. Great Films and James Caan said Yeah. That'll never happen again. Really Yeah he said that period of show business is over. You're breaking my heart yeah. She fought her illness very bravely and very publicly she was. She was sick for a long time and I got to work with her twice shoes. She was delightful but this was a great quote she said. I want people to be less afraid of death while lawyer alive live which I thought was was very sweet. She hung on for a very very long time time. What did you work with her on? I worked on the view twice and she was She was just great to me. And we've got to spend a little time together because I revealed myself to be a Mary. Tyler Moore Show nerd and She knew the lines well. She's still new the lines when I when I set her up also speaking of that show Georgia Angle Played Georgette. Ted Baxter. His girlfriend also oh passed away She was spotted as an in production of local production of of Hello Dolly and offered a three day role on the show by Mary. Tyler Moore which turned into you a couple of seasons okay. I remember a line that she said. Okay Mary Tyler Moore where they wanted to adopt a kid hid and she says to the Adoption Agency worker you know like with tears in our eyes she goes. Do you know what a great father Ted back drunk. Yes she says He. He spent the day painting clown faces on the child's L.. Jerome and then she goes okay. He made a mistake. It was the living room yeah. They're having trouble adopting opting instead. And he and he ties one. And then the And then the caseworker makes a surprise. Visit to see if there were the parents and he's drunk She passed it seventy Cindy In fact she was on Raymond too and there was almost a spin off of her character and Fred Willard's characters and it didn't happen and she was on the office us to as Ellie Campers. I think she was. Ellie can present or woman who takes her in the office very very funny actress. Let's talk about a couple of legends. This is this is really going from the sublime to the ridiculous Robert Evans. Now we could have done the entire series. He's talking to him. You're we could have done fifty episodes of the show. Just all at the Robert Evans. PODCAST EASILY YOU WANNA start. Yeah she became head of paramount when paramount was sort of in the toilet. Yeah at age. Thirty seven and the list of movies that he sort of oversaw and shepherded at the studio. Here's just a few. Oh in only a small number of years barefoot in the park the odd couple. Rosemary's baby the Italian job. True Grit Love Story Godfather Godfather One Godfather serpico save the Tiger the conversation all with him at the helm of the studio amazing and Harold Ahmad and held him what yeah and held him odd. Yeah and then he became. He left the studio and became a producer and he produced Chinatown Black Sunday. Marathon man urban cowboy and and then he later he produced a cotton club in the two jakes and things downfall but That run he had in the seventies was. I mean it's an unbeatable. Did you ever meet him. No no just everyone who met him had such great stores your plan. I know Dustin Hoffman based his way the tail character on a wag. The Dog Lake did. Yeah and you know the story after Robert Evans saw the movie yeah he saw wag the dog and then he announced. I'm magnificent in this film. Ah I'll give you one more. Dustin Hoffman based Mumbles in Dick Tracy on Robert Evans the part that you lost out on assed lost the movie to Dustin Hoffman. So I can't fly can't complain. They say the story of how he was sort of discovered he. He was a radio actor as a kid but he gave it up and he went back to the garment business but the story is that he was discovered at the Beverly Hills Hotel Pool. You know this neuro. Oh by Norma Shearer who saw him and thought that he should play Irving Thalberg which was her late husband. Now in the CAG- Movie Man of a thousand faces and that's how he got that part mark read that's in his. That's his documentary. And it's in the book. But I don't know New York City borne by the way Robert Evans and other New Yorker The documentary there's a tremendous documentary. He made about his life and career called. The kid stays in the picture. It's probably it's terrific. Fifteen Years Fifteen yes phenomenon longer than that. The book easy. The riders Raging Bulls which has come up a lot of times also. He's basically on every page of that book. The Robert Evans stories are just unbelievable. Documentaries Amazing Daryl Zanuck cast cast him also as a Mexican in the sun also rises my God and and this is where the title came from. Apparently Hemingway himself and the other actors were begging to get get him out of the picture because he was so terrible and Santa Tired off a famous memo saying the kid stays in the picture. Wow and that's where the that's where the title title came from so when himself into a producer because he he knew he was a bad actor. Mark Smart that's the that he knew his his talent was honest about it he he. Actually Ali was one of the people. Fighting Francis Ford Coppola a before. They made the Godfather because he did not want Al Pacino Right. They thought he was the runt yes. So he said he wanted a Redford or Warren Beatty and he kept saying that that that Pacino reminded him of Michael J Pollard. Someone will both on the list that Evans they were basically the same thing. And the and and Evans referred to Pacino as that little dwarf. They didn't want any part of Brando. Either no no. There's Anthony Quinn was going to be the the Dawn Ernest. Borgnine was going to be the die. Think they even set Shea Frank Sinatra at one point. Yeah and then here's another. A Laurence Olivier reworked imagine. Pulled it off if anybody could have. I could've pulled it off but you can't can't think of anybody else no heart. So Sharon Tate invited Robert Evans over the night she was killed. Oh my God. Where'd you and he declined? That's wild and instead she called J. C.. Bring ooh that's wild. She had called Robert Evans I and he was just like now. I'm not feeling it. I don't WanNA come hang out. We'll he dodged death a couple of times because he had three strokes any any any several incidents but the cotton club that was the beginning of the end and then there was the whole Roy rate and murder which he was not which he was not implicated in but but he was questioned and then he got busted for cocaine trafficking right in nineteen eighty and then he lost his home. Yeah I guess like Nicholson helped him get it back thank you. Six seven marriages also took their toll. That's actually an otherwise. That's another theme of this episode of people with a lot of our. Nobody beats him. Not Having having to do at all with Evans but Sharon tate is one of the girls that I mentioned who falls over in a movie movie and shows her right underwear and one of the Matt Helm Matt Helm weekend and once upon a time in Hollywood yes they have chair name name Mark Margot Robbie Margot Robbie fall over and show her. It's a great scene when she goes to that movie theater and his watching herself in the theater. And I I said everybody about Tarantino got the idea from yu-gi-oh yes see I. I'm sure he did. You're basically entertaining tatum. Movie and and and see it's hard to jerk off to the Matt Helm One because she was murdered Saul now more in Memoriam episode as Tawdry as this one I will the last thing I wanted to say about. Robert Evans is that I had the pleasure of watching him get his his Hollywood. Walk of fame star Real my friend. Rick Willard and I went out there and and and stood online in searing heat. That's cool and watched him and he got up and made a speech. You know about how Allegri still wasn't over the Alley McGraw Steve McQueen clean. She left him famously. Steve McQueen if you remember the documentary keeps referring to that Brat Alleyway. I heard a story that one time time Hughes relieve McQueen was fighting for the rights to his son or a child he was what have and and somebody came into the room and showed him a piece of paper and Steve McQueen just said are all right right I give up the case and so say some some incur some horrible thing on paper that I'd love to find out who you're never GONNA no no. Yeah Yeah Miss that one podcast by a few years. It's a here's another legend Albert Finney. Oh yeah that's a big loss. He an actor. He was in toward lateness career. And the film. That's the Great Sidney. Lumet directed you did a great movie but when the Devil knows when the devil knows terrific those movies that in the first minute grabbed to me. I wonder why the sex scene with Marissa grabs. But he was one of those movies where you go okay. I'm I'm in. Yeah we just hanging on every. That's it to riff. And and also the terrific Philip Seymour. Hoffman Yeah Yeah I'm I mean. Finney was in great movies for forty fifty year. Oh yeah the well. Tom Jones who for the road under the Miller's crossing. Yeah I love orphans you ever seen scene orphans. No Allan Peculiar was it was. It was a film stage play but he was very good to him and Matthew Modine so I read that Albert Finney. He had to do a four day test for Lawrence of Arabia for the lead. Oh yeah he got the part. And then Sam Spiegel wanted to sign him. I'm to like a multi year deal at said Albert. Finney said No. I don't I don't do that. I'm not giving you multi. Years earned him down and then walked away from the movie turned him down made. Peter O'Toole star. Yeah Yeah. He did everything he did Strindberg. He was part of the Royal Shakespeare Company of a four time Oscar nominee x six times. I had four six six and never won impressive Before we mentioned before the devil knows you're dead which yes Gilbert's right. It was Lumet's last movie. Wonderful Miller's crossing replacing Trey Wilson from raising Arizona who had died. Suddenly you ever see a movie called Wolfson. Oh yes one of his comeback now that that one though it's flawed God but he's great in it and responded. Gregory hines you know. Great actors can have tr- always can have trouble with accents and he's supposed to be a in New York and Alan King I think was the produce that's right that's right and king had them right in a line worry said yeah they used to call me the limy and that was still skews. It this this guy is not right from something wild he tested for the Benjamin braddock part in the graduate. That's which is the FDA no sense. I got movie called Saturday night and Sunday morning. I've seen it. It's incredible the dresser which I know he was nominated for an Oscar. perforce shoot the moon which is depressing. Great Alan Parker's you'll you'll like this. He's the only actor to call Audrey Hepburn Bitch onscreen. Oh two for the Rosa Gregory. We go talk about the director of that movie momentarily who also passed away This year but see these movies and he declined knighthood twice. Wow now in one thousand nine hundred eighty and two thousand calling it He said perpetuated snobbery. How about that? That was eulogy Malcolm alka McDowell said Albert Finney was the most influential actor of his generation. He made it possible for actors from the provinces to make it he also helped filmmakers as a producer he managed he he fundraise for Lindsay Anderson's Movie if any produced a lucky man did you know that. No John cleese said Albert Finney the best Uh terrific actor and see all of those movies that we just mentioned including murder on the Orient Express. Oh yeah absolutely third choice for that. which is amazing? It was Alec Guinness and Paul. Scofield were the first two choices any of them would have been great. But now I can't picture anybody else and Jacqueline riveting was unmarred relevant guests on the show who saw a dog eat out. Jack that dog is probably dead now. So you're the dog either. Dog wrote a book really. Here's another legend Doris. Day Ninety seven wow from Cincinnati. Ohio began her career. Here's a long career she. We started out with Les Brown and his band of Renown Gilbert. Does that mean anything to you. She started her movie career in Nineteen Forty Eight worked with Clark Gable Cary Grad Brad. David Niven Frank Sinatra. Jack Lemmon Kirk Douglas. Jimmy Stewart Jimmy Cagney and of course most notably rock Hudson Discovered for the movies by a great director Michael critise Made Casablanca and mildred very horny. Bob Hope One one the point where you go with this Doris Day. When he ran into her on the lot he said you know I could play a really really nice game where you're sh- he said? Did you talk with this. Is that in her memoir. Yeah Bob Hope said that. That's a big Bob. Hope did on the regular horny all right. The chest was involved play chess because I read it was part cheesy. But he said to her speaking of Stratego so I I Doris Mary. Ann Keppelhoff Wow. She turned down the role of Maria in the sound of music. And she said I'm to American to play a nun from Austria. Good point you down Mrs Rocky. She said the script was vulgar and offensive would catch looking who people turn out in the garage and she turned down. The lead role of of Jessica Fletcher in murder. She wrote Oh that's interesting. Yeah Wow that one makes you pause pause for second she. She also turned down the lead in showgirls. I don't know if you know that wouldn't listen to Berkeley also found it vulgar and offensive. She of course was eighty. The at the time Also dated Ronald Reagan. She did after. Ronald Reagan's marriage to Jane Wyman ended. They dated for a little bit and at the time he he was a Democrat as she was a lifelong Republican and she used to say to him. You know you're so good at speaking and talking you should tore the country and give speeches. ooh ooh interesting. How about that and then I you know? Of course she became. That was the show so involved with that rock Hudson whole scandal at the time. Yeah she was she was. She publicly. Embraced Him When people didn't know what AIDS was you know he was gay. That's odd yeah so five movies or four movies. That was he was one of those that like like every single person in show business. If you mop the floors you said Oh yeah well known like accepted you. You know best known secret but she did have him on her talk talk. Show talk show on like the Christian Christian was very brave rape of and as I said people didn't understand what aides was. They didn't know that you could make even make physical contact with people know him and held his hand some. She was the bikes the bravely. who kissed him and was like terrified? I don't know who some actress she. She kissed rock Hudson and was really really our our on my sister before the show ends it Michel Our yes. Speaking of the Manson's Oh there's a Doris Day connection. I I know this her son. Yeah Terry Melcher owned the House House. Oh at What is it C. L. O.? Drive it later demolished. Sharon tate rented where she was murdered. But you are. He lived in the house but all right he he rent or he was the renter that Melcher worked in music. And and there's a scene in once upon a time in Hollywood where where where Manson stops by the house a few days beforehand and the reason and that really happened. The reason he stopped by the house was he was looking for. Terry Melcher wrecked and Terry Melcher is the the person who rejected Manson's attempt at writing perceived at that he wanted to be like a rock star and I guess there was a theory for a little while all that that Oh maybe involved. He became involved with one of the beach. Boys yes Dennis. Wilson was that because Terry Terry Melcher rejected Manson's songwriting. That's why they targeted that house. But then I guess the police later. I don't know what I my understanding adding of there. She told him he told his mother spooky was and she said move out and he moved out of the House and then but she she lived in fear for years because there are still Manson Mansa nights the ones that weren't arrested or weren't involved with the murders. Were still floating around people. Like squeaky fromm. Yeah there were a lot of people floating around and she feared some people say it hastened in her retirement because she got out of the business after the Doris Day show for the most part I mean. She turned down a lot of public appearances she got screwed. By one of her hus- she aged and her second husband left her in debt. Yeah that's why she did a series. That's why she did the door station and she was in Carmel. California for the last decades of her life turned down a lot of public appearance. Do phone interviews. She was Big On the animal. 'cause yes a woman after my own heart. She started the Doris Day Animal Foundation Foundation. And the Doris Day pet foundation A person of of real decency and conscience. She made it to ninety seven. That's one that I it would have had a chance of getting your on the podcast. That's not one that got away Got Away and then there's doors never happening happening graduate was too vulgar. Yes has always was with every one of these shows. People were not going to get to so so. I'll apologize in an advanced because I've written down a lot of names but time is not going to permit us to get to all of them but let me mentioned since I'm sitting across from a famous comedian. Let me mention three famous Comedians Rip Taylor Oh God ever made them this and these are the three people I would like you to know that we pursued for years to no avail. I was once John Doing a bit on the tonight. Show with Jay Leno and retailer was one of the guests and I went to stressing room and and he just started doing sh. I was like double dove. It that dummy she was there confetti. Yeah yeah it was like the dumbest Shit you could think of and it was hysterical but the Confetti it was an accident came later was an accident coming wing on Merv Griffin Card Lane cards and then portable people loved it and there were calls into the station or whatever and then it became his signature always one of my favorites because he wasn't funny unless he was bombing yes in fact bombing was the whole point with his act. I thought Billy Eichner who you guys should the podcast not just hilarious. But Billy Eichner is of of our tribe of just cares about old holly goes. We'll ask him. He's amazing with all the stuff. I thought he had a really nice tweet when when rip Taylor died he said rip rip. I can't imagine how much bullshit you had to deal with an industry that decided it was finally cool to be a game and in comedy like a year ago nevertheless you ignored all that and delighted people for decades. I agree he was Larry and ripped teller line. That killed me. He said I went to the Virgin Islands. They gave me a hero's welcome. Charles Elmer Rip Taylor. Six decade career started out. In Strip clubs pantomime Max. Oh he died he he really worked his way up. I remember member. One thing that I headed his speech memorize an infomercial for a fortune teller. And he she supposes to the predicted that he'd open a casino with Shirley maclaine and and he said she said I'd open a casino. I never wanted. And we're opening next month and she said I'd be in the movie and I said what movie I I. Yeah I developed films and all the jokes and and I'm I'm going to be in three refills. Who knew she knew and he believes that stuff? Yes wow well or they were paying him too was one of those the way you said he started out pantomime. ING from record started the way he was pantomime in Yiddish folksongs. Go my God what I like to see a tape of that Sigmund and the sea monsters he worked for Mardi Gras The ninety the dollar ninety eight beauty show Chuck Barris. He was a regular on the Gong show. Occasionally on on on match game and Julie. Funnier showed me a clay chased him for a long time. Gene showed me a clip from the telethon of Jerry. Lewis Sh- fred. Trifling rip torn Rip Taylor Rick Tail. Yeah Rip Taylor Charlie Callous. While Mario I got to see this clip singing gang gonNA make him laugh out to see this clip hysteric Chino who you all know if you're listening to the show regularly Gilbert as as often as I can. Dan Helps US book. This show is you know. He's he's he's airport Ira our brethren enough evadne pursue rip Taylor doggedly and and he told us he had a book he was GonNa wait till his memoir. The memoir never showed up rip never showed up either but Here's here's his trip right. Fantastic here's another guy. Who would have been wonderful fool? Who died at Ninety Artie Johnson? Oh he he would have been jury and we chased him and chased him and we just couldn't You know and he was on a trike so no he did a lot of stuff. Everybody knows already Johnson from laughing in the DAS and isn't the end as the Horny old man whose name was tyrone or Nah who pursued endlessly pursued Ruth Buzzy Randy Randy. Oh Man but you know. He had a career as an actor. He did a lot of stuff he did. sitcoms variety shows he was on a twilight zone episode called the whole truth. He's in a good movie called the president's analyst. I love that movie me to lean back for a little while to be in that George Coach Hamilton. Yes he played R-enfield in love at first bite. US Funny Very Funny Guy Very Funny Guy. Yeah I know health were after him for years and another guy. We chased almost from the beginning almost from the time that we launched this show Darah pursuit. Gino pursued him. And that's Tim Conway. Now that was a tough one. Because we we really really want him Tim Conway I went up to him. I was doing a commercial and Tim. Conway was also in an in the commercial. And I went up to Tim Conway and I said Yeah I don't know if you're familiar with this. But this story that has to do with Pat McCormick and he just looks at me seriously seriously helicopter and I say yeah any. Thank you sir started out as a disc jockey in Ohio. His partner was Ernie Anderson the Anderson Dam Sanderson's dead Goulart crazy in fact. I believe that the station broke them up. They were a duo yeah tech. They cut an album together. And I I hope this is I have my information right. I believe the studio broke them. OP The station broke them up. And that's why. PT Anderson went off and created. The monster character created Goulart. Wow because he was he was a solo. So I read that Tim Conway License Plate was thirteen weeks. And it's because all of his Solo TV projects were cancelled up to tim. Conway show wranglings. Thirteen weeks turn only made at one turn on. Was this show taken off the day. It was on that's infamous which we discuss the George Ladder When he was on the podcast my grandfather watched those dorf videos seriously? During my childhood my grandfather was obsessed with those Dorf Dorf north on Golf Dorfman. I remember seeing Tim Conway on with Sh- Scheider Chai. What's his name? Oh the guy with the smoking the cigarette all time. Tom Snyder Tom Snyder. He was on with him and so one of the things he was. Blogging was the latest Dr Fun Golf and they showed a clip and WANNA came back. It was so unfunny these terrible when it came back back. Tom Snyder just goes Tom. Snyder was not that Nice. A guy the king thank you. Where do you go from that? Every every series was cancelled as you say Rose Marie I found and became a fan of his and helped him early in his career. Did you know that took him under her wing and she helped him get on the Steve Allen Show Won Four emmys on the Carol Burnett show so for his great work And his great work with Harvey Korman and he had a movie career. Disney movies like the world's greatest athlete and gusts which is about a field goal kicking mule the prizefighter with Don knotts for the price fighter. And and and private is in the Apple Dunk dumpling gang. He's in a movie called the long shot shot with our friend. Ted Wass yet a movie career and he worked well into into the nineties and the two thousand okay I was going to be in a movie called the long shot that they I think they changed the name because there was already. That movie called LONGCHAMPS. I was one this year or last year. Long shot with with Seth Rogan okay. I I I was I just had a part in. This movie was with art. Garfunkel was in it and it was made by that guy. What was his name Perlman Allman or some? You've mentioned this guy that got in trouble for new with new kids on the block. Yes he did. Yeah and then he was. He was accused of some other Stuff yeah but they never proved it. Listen to the episode. We did with his a Tim's old friends. Arnie Kogen who wrote for the Bern show and Bill Persky It's a good one. You can find it now. All the episodes are free Cowburn it said he was one in a million not only a brilliant comedian comedian but a loving human being and I cherish the time we had onscreen and off Really Funny Guy and would have been great on this show. Yeah although although he was shy I worked with them on the Mark Twain Prize and he was he was a little introverted. Yeah I think he was another one of those people who wasn't Russian. Perform you got that sets a little bit One more mention of already Johnson. He has a connection to this podcast because he played Eddie Sherman and Bud and Lou. He's the one the one he's the one who gives low-cost shrub. No Hey hi hats. A- all my gay gauge back and and I remember Bernardi Johnson when he takes out the strawberry malted. He says here. I brought you a strawberry multi. Because you're a good boy. Hey guys it would have been gold on this show boy. Oh boy. Let's talk quickly. We have a screenwriter in our midst. Let's talk about a couple of writers and some directors you familiar with the work of William weightlift screenwriter wrote Lonesome Dove honeysuckle. Rose legends of the fall The perfect storm the black stallion. Wow Go wrote Eboni Eboni a nice career Texan passed away. Mark Martin Scorsese's collaborator. Who wrote raging bull? I met him once when I worked for dinner. You're a long time ago. Do Tell No. There's no story unfortunately just he was very interesting man See from Iraq. He was in middle. He was Middle Eastern. He washed dishes. Fled Iraq during the draft to avoid the draft. He wash dishes to pay his way to To NYU met a young student. Martin Scorsese and they used to write scripts grips in in his car. They used to sit score. Says he didn't have a car but Martin had a car. He said that they used to sit in his old plymouth. Valiant and right in the cold and the snow well. How many times did they collaborate streets which was called season of the witch right for they changed the title New York New York and raging bull with schrader right with Paul schrader Alvin Sargent who was a A giant among screenwriters died at ninety two paper Moon Julia Equal. Yeah what about Bob. Straight time the unfaithful. I love straight time. Dominick and Eugene movie. I like the camera me spider-man's which are great absolutely started out as an actor came to Hollywood to be an actor is in from here to eternity right in a bit part cinnamon working for Fred Cinnamon and then years later he writes Julia. Wow which Fred Zinnemann gets the direct correct Paper Moon I love to others with herb. Sargent yes herb was. A friend of mine really usually eulogized her on a previous show President of the Writers Guild Yes for a while and a and a lovely guy Who have friends who worked with Alvin? And they e- every single one of them talk about how he was such a mench he was such nice as Earth. That's nice to hear All good movies See a movie called love and pain in the whole damn thing with Maggie Smith. No he wrote that. Look at it. Look for it. A couple of directors Da Penny Baker. Yes granddaddies of the documentary like someone on the Mount Rushmore of American Documentary Monterey. Pop don't look back. Dylan documentary must sees John. SINGLETON died Rather young at fifty one sadly of a sudden of a sudden stroke that that is a terrific movie boys in the hood so good he He wrote boys in the hood. I read this while he was an intern on the Arsenio Hall show which is actually also where where he met ice cube. How about that? And then he was a PA on pee. Wee's playhouse. And that's where he met Laurence Fishburne so working kind of networks. Well yes uh-huh yeah. Put that movie together by working all these other jobs grew up in south central. La and made and made a very good film about it. Here's a name the way I should say at at twenty four years old. He was the youngest person and the first African America s nominated for best director. We should mention that. This is a guy James Frawley do do you know the name of the director of the big boss. He was the guy one of the guys behind the monkeys. He also directed them up movie right. He directed the pilot. He was a monkey yes. He directed acted the pilot. He was handpicked by Rayson. And Schneider the guys who created the monkeys And they gave him. We had Mickey Dolan's on this show and he gave Jim Frawley a lot of credit because he he came from an improvisational background. Two of those guys were musicians. They weren't they weren't actors at all Dolan's and Jones are actors Torque in next myth. Were musicians they. They weren't actors. They weren't comedians and they said they owed a lot to him Torque is another one. Yeah we'll probably Frawley is the only person who could say he directed Orson Welles. Bob Hope Milton Berle. Richard Pryor Steve Martin and Mel Brooks all in the same move and Kermit the frog and Kermit the frog all all in them up and broadcast guest Austin Pendleton Stanley dawn and we were talking about two for the road. Stanley was ninety four boy. What a body of work sort of the last I think it was the last of the Golden Charade two for the road on the town Royal wedding royal wedding adding Seven brides goes on and on Dazzled funny face he said singing in the rain right I was GONNA say I was saving singing in the rain for last started as a dancer at age. Ten Fred saw Fred Astaire at age nine steady changed my life as a little boy. Got To direct Fred astaire late in life in royal a wedding cool. He directed the famous scene. Where Fred astaire dances with with the the Cold War and then dances on the ceiling? Oh Jeez only dawn. And then by the way decades later directed the Lionel Ritchie Music. Video dancing on the ceiling. Correct they went to the right guy. And that's that's that's the movie where they talked about how they did. And they built an entire room with the furniture sure nailed down and it was a revolving Rome right. It rotated yes and so it was and that me is so much more fascinating now yet now with computers they do anything they want. And when I hear stuff like that that incredible and I think that's basically the idea that Kubrick used it may have been now in two thousand thousand one. It may have been with cure delay. And you believe this man was never nominated for an academy award. That's insane even nominated not only did they. Not Give an Oscar in my friend Michael Weber. Well which is outrage but only don in an all time great. I have another reason to hold the hold a grudge against I. I read one crazy thing about about his career. In ninety three later in life he was going to direct a movie. Musical Adaptation Asian of Dr. JEKYLL and Mr Hyde starring Michael Jackson. How `bout that all started coming out and the project died? I'm glad that would be scary for all Arar. Here's here's here's a little known Stanley picture. Your movie movie with Red Buttons Art. Carney got a George Scott and Harry Hamlin. I need to see if you can find it on DVD. I haven't on Blu Ray I'll bring it to you And See Charade the best hitchcock movie that Hitchcock never made and definitely two for the road. he was in New Yorker and Late in life not from originally but made New York his home in lane may was his companion. Never got enough credit for singing in the rain credit sort of the kind of spent their lives. Sort of battling over. Who was the real true author? Shame online on Youtube. You can find a wonderful clip of him getting an Honorary Oscar for Martin Scorsese who says he and he does a little song and dance in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. Here's a couple of other people Quickly as we run out of time and like I said we never ever get to everybody. These are a couple of wonderful actresses. We lost Cara Linley from the Poseidon Adventure. I once sat on a plane. Elaine boy I talk about this could have been a disaster movie. I sat on a plane once years ago. Inbetween between Carol Linley and Sylvia. Sidney Mike that is a disaster like airport. Ninety the seven Gilbert Godfrey Howen ready. Sylvia Sidney Jimmy Walker Caroline Louis no I might be unknown. No never mind. It wasn't Carol. Linley was our no. Hey you know what before the end of this show do it at the end before the end of this show. I got a call my sister. And tell you this rutger Hauer will fucking kill me. Let me get through these names. Play a soldier soldier of Orange. Now I don't want he was in something else. God we listed fifty. Yeah those credit for these names and then we'll do it at the end. She was a child model. She was born in New York. She had a not not a very long career in a good couple outer perimeter movies the Cardinal Oh and bunny lake is missing but she is in the Maltese Lippi the rolling and Mar boy. She's in a movie. I watched recently which I just thought it was terrible and I love Jack Lemmon. I saw her in a movie called under the Yum yum tree which is a sex comedy with Jack Lemmon and Paul Lynde Andy Adams. She's very good in it. Not a good movie but she had a short career like sue Lyon Yes who died at seventy three low leader Not a long career. No no Oh and with with James Mason. Mason and Peter sellars is Clare. quilty yeah She's in a very good movie. Called the Flimflam man which I will recommend to you with. short-sea Scott someone who left Hollywood and didn't look back and seemed to really have a very healthy life after being a performer. Yeah Yeah Married five times. You mentioned people who got married to. We're on the list. She was fourteen when she was cast as Lolita they could not cast a twelve year old old as as was in the novel reason I was saying before. There's that great letter that came out after she passed away I guess she wrote yeah to Kubrick to Coober. I saw that online Wishing him well and looking back on the time they spend together and you just got a sense of this. Is someone who who had no regrets about that time and kind of had moved on with her life and Lie Carolina very short career. Here's another medium cool reference Verna Bloom. Yeah no that actress. She's an after. Hours Scorsese user. She's in the last temptation of Christ. She was married to Jaycox Cox the critic and and and score says he's frequent collaborator She's in the first movie directed by Peter Fonda hired hand and she uttered one of my wife's Favorite lines in the history of cinema which is in the climax of animal how she played Dean Warner's wife and she's the one that says you can take your your thumb out of my ass anytime now car. She was in high plains drifter she worked a lot. Sylvia Miles Gilbert. Oh Ninety four New York City fiction sir. You must have met her. You must've run into her. And Sylvia Miles was one of those people who whenever you went into any kind of New York event where they'd be serving free food to our have `Paparazzi around she'd be there she was one of those fixtures and who was her co Star in a minute cowboy midnight cowboy. Her co-star Dustin Dustin hot. Oh wait wait John McCain you up yes it's crazy Dan. Yes strobe. I don't know he takes requests. I remember when she did and she did like one scene in Wall Street. Yes she's in the in the sequel to and she said she said in an interview because you know l. has seen stood out so she said I play the Bronson Pinchot show character in Beverly Hills Cop and the Gilbert Gottfried character in Beverly Hills cop to love it Yeah but she was the original. Sally Rogers all lace by Rosemary. She's an evil under the sun. She's in Wall Street. He's in with with our friend. Peter Rieger she's in crossing delancey Crossing delancey yeah terrific. She's in. She's she's in everything everything. She had a long career. I bet she was a great storyteller and yes she would have been a wonderful guest. We didn't get to her Last on my list here of of actresses we lost Julie Adams from creature the Black Lagoon. Wow the form little misra Miss Little Rock. Arkansas moved to Hollywood at age. Nineteen she went up working with Elvis with Charlton Heston with Glenn. Ford Ford with Jimmy Stewart and and being cast As the heroine in creature from the Black Lagoon made her famous for decades and She was married to Leonard Stern. ooh who was the showrunner on get smart and created. I'm Dickens. He's Fester Oh also invented mad libs. Yes the House. For Weird Trivia John Ashton and Marty ingels correct yeah and Sylvia Miles. Going back one famously dumped plate of food on the head of the critic John Simon in a restaurant when she got a bad review and match that did we mention the death breath wish rider. I see in the next y believe who Brian Garfield field. That might we have that for. This young might have been two thousand eighteen. Yeah yeah no no I think he. I think he died this year. Burn you WanNa you want to handle that one. Oh I've got nothing on him but we can mention him while while you're looking at up. I got a call. My sister Brian Garfield died December. Twenty ninth two thousand eighteen eighteen thirty days. I covered them last readings news. I want to mention some music. Names quickly Dr John Leon. Red Bone Ricco casick liter cars. Dick Dale the inventor of Surf. Music Surf Rock. Daryl Dragon of captain to Neil Jack Sheldon the Voice of Schoolhouse Rock just a bill. We just passed away as the bandleader on the MERV Griffin show. How Lane From the wrecking crew Michel Legrand composed one of my favorite scores. The Thomas Crown Affair. God dammit I love that movie Norman Still Alive best get him on the damn show. Best title sequence L. it's fantastic so great dusty springfield. Andre Previn died. And of course Gilbert Mention Peter Tork who we didn't We sell us of sadly did not did not get to And would've loved to talk to him but we pay tribute to him many times when we had mckeon and Mike on the show. Have I left anybody. How's Carol channing? Carol channing let's talk about Carol channing. Quickly Gilbert's left the room but we'll talk about channing thoroughly modern millie. Oh Yeah could you. She's it's good to. We should have put her at the top of the list because she's inskip do. Yeah Gentlemen Prefer Blondes on Broadway Eh. One a career. What a career Lift in ninety seven an iconic American theater. I like what Bette Midler said about our my condolences to the world to those who knew her and saw her into those who never got the chance. She was the first celebrity to perform at a super bowl halftime show. That's cool stuff. Seventy that guilt. What do you got on? Carol channing Carol channing. Did you meet her. Tell us about your shirt. Wasn't Mario Canto. We're GONNA his his dead on impression of one time on the comedy awards. George slaughter thought it would. It'd be funny to have. Just me and Carol channing on stage together just talking to each other they wrote some. Yeah Ah just some funny thing together do you have this. Yeah I call him. Short could be looked. George you know maybe we could find that it's just hugh and Carol channing. Yeah just mean Carol channing. While I don't know what to say about that and you want to hear what a dip shit I go on July elite dip shit. I asked my sister. I said what was the movie that you fell in love with Rutger Hauer and of course the first movie I mentioned Bladerunner Toronto. They picked up the phone. We basically have to start the podcast episode over. Now go back to the beginning before we wrap this up. I got one more go ahead. Go Franco Zeffirelli. Forgot Franken's really well. He worked with Gilbert's favourite favorite with Olivia Hussey. Oh who has a crush on Gilbert. Yes did you see. Did you see that movie in the theater. Like how old were you when you saw Olivia Hustle. I wish a kid. Yes that was a big deal. I saw it in high school. They played it in high school. And you just everyone. That's the best. Romeo and Juliet isn't it on and there have been many. He worked with Antonioni. Tony he worked with the Sika he had he had created a big career on the stage and directing operas surprisingly Franco Zeffirelli to us. You you know what's so much by the way he was a blood relative can Vinci No. Yes wow we started with a blood relative of of Napoleon Bonaparte and we ended with a blood relative of Leonardo Da Vinci and only show has come full circle one of only eight Italians to be nominee nominated for best director. o- how wonder how many I can name you WanNa. Let's try. Well Scorsese. No no no I like from Italy. Oh Oh I thought you minutes then Visconti yes Lucci we know visconti was not okay. Burnt Burnt Lucia for the last emperor. Chico Marceca Geico Mark Fellini yes No Oh shit Italian Italians Italians Carlo Ponti Silvio Sophia Loren's husband no son of a bitch doing badly here Antonioni yes BUBBA BUBBA I'm out. I'm out of amount of Italians. Roberto Benin Benin Gelo Pontecorvo. Okay What about Rossellini nomar Ingrid Bergman's germy divorce Italian style? Yeah good movie and Lena were working only introvert muller for yeah see see the sexiest woman. Yes and and now now at that actor I thought of having on the show and we wease Larry. Giancarlo Oncology Anini Yeah I don't think English that's what you said somebody me Charles. I said we should get him on this show and you said said that she's speaking you say could you have reached me several people who don't speak English including famously PAPILLON SOO coming coming up. Yes she's out there. These are quick names Sid. Haig spider baby suit legend into her baby. Jackie Brown he. He said that he he wants Went into Lon Chaney Juniors Room and he said Oh they're calling for you on the set Mr Chaney Amy and and Cheney got mad at him and said Hey we're working together you don't call me Mr Chaney I call you sit you call me lawn about that. How how? `Bout that by the way Sid Haig turned down the Marcellus Wallace role in pulp fiction. You our good buddy buddy that was that was Tarantino. wrote it for him. Oh he turned it down and it went to reins instead and then I guess sort of as a do over. He ended up with a smaller parties and kill Oh. He's Jackie Brownies and kill bill to but yeah Yeah Tarantino used them a David. Harrison died Gilbert Ninety the fly in one thousand nine hundred fifty eight opposite Vincent in price. He was with me a very good also voyage to the bottom of the sea with Richard Base. Art and I think pension price has a line up fly where he goes he get demergers bloodthirsty mind of a fly and I saw flights that really they spend thirty. They also played Felix lighter in a couple of bond films. Right David Edison in live and let die in licensed to kill. Here's a music guests accommodate guests the seventh the unofficial python seventh. or I guess he was the How many pythons were there? Seven eight he was the unofficial member. I've lost track and and and a brilliant satirist. Neil Innes greater the ruttles with Eric. Idle Scotty bowers. Somebody Gilbert pitch forever Yeah the the Hollywood's male madame. Yeah wrote that infamous tell all book a full-service Ulcer Cemetary came out last Scotty bowers and the secret history of Hollywood and the documentaries phenomenal. Yes was ninety six Gilbert and Gino pitched him endlessly ass in Beverley Owen the original Marilyn Munster. Oh was later replaced by PAT. Priest was eulogized online by by Butch. Patrick here's a name of Mr Weber. Do you know the name carmine Caridi. I yes uber knows is common currency used to hang out at catch rising star. He was supposed to be Sonny Corleone Leone but he was too tall to to act opposite Pacino. Oh my God thanks. God was a little crazy because he was a little crazy played. One of the Rosado brothers. Coppola throw him a bone and let it play one of the router brothers. He played carmine about this. On the Danny Aiello episode. We did In Godfather to He's also in Godfather three Eh as Albert Volpe and he's also in a movie. That's a favorite of mine that we talked about on this show with former guests and that's that's Prince of the city. Yes he's in Princeton the city. He's in Ruby that move. He's in bugsy he's in the in laws he a lot of stuff. Look him up you'll recognize is the Museo that guy and last but not least on this shortlist Michael J Pollard. Who you brought up a four? Who has something in common with Gilbert? Okay and what is that. I I was when I was taken out of this horrible film called another you. That was the last of the gene wilder Richard Pryor and they got rid of they got rid of the director first and then a few of the cast and scraped old previously shot footage reshot it and and I was replaced with Michael J. Polar. Wow I thought they replaced me with rob lowers that that. It wasn't even the thing I was thinking of. You both played famous Superman Villain Mrs.. Yes we both Wade Miss. Yes me and Mild Michael J. Pilot and oh no. No Penguin that Paul Williams played the penguins by the way to really bring this all the way back around. Go ahead Michael J Pollard was supposed to be the lead in Brewster mccloud and then Robert Altman came on the picture and wanted bud cort instead there you go not sure it would have made a difference. It's pretty pretty out there. He's one of those seventies actors. He's one of those guys that sort of define seventy cinema yes. He didn't really make it into the eighties as as much as much of a presence. But but while Bonnie and Clyde was made in the sixties but you know little fouls and big palsy and a lot of those pictures He was one of those actors that every single person you could show on the Patriots logo original Ugo peabody and bye bye Birdie owes in the original star Trek. He was Barney fifes. Cousin Virgil on the Andy Griffith. Show I remember that one because he was the fuck up cousin right. I'm out of bullets filament. Unless there's anybody else there's of course there's plenty of people that we forgot her mayhew due to balk and Big Bird Caroll spinney. These are all we met him. Because I did an episode of Sesame Jason Jan.. Michael Vincent Mario's favorite. Maria's crush God Perry Luke Perry that was said and two young Lee Mendelson who who Produce the Charlie Brown Christmas and died on Christmas Day. Janvier Legal Vinson one said he goes. I I lift too long. He goes if I had died years ago. I'd be remembered like James Dean. Any would have been. He was handsome young a young actor and he was going to be big and it looked like he was going to be the knicks. Big Thing and oh God that was horrible. Sad Life Taymor in the end go ahead wings of desire rural gone soon organs downfall. Yeah he played. Maybe the Best Hitler. Yeah onscreen except for Gilbert in the Jeff Ross Roast yes We named a lot of people and it's Is this one of the reasons we do. This show is so that people lookin' remember these these great performance and I always think of that line at the end of radio days where which is one of my favorite movies where he says Everett what he says about the old stars? It's a radio every year their voices get a little bit more distant. So while you guys do the show. It's one of the reasons we do the show and we talked about this last time I was is here but everything we do. Now that we make TV films anything there. There's no there's nothing now without everything that came then of course of course and and And you know we wish we could have gotten some of these people here to talk to talk to them. But I'm I'm gratified by the people we've had. I'm you know we're coming up on three hundred shows. I can't believe we've talked to three hundred over. Thought we would do this for six weeks. I guess the first show. I said well we tried. Yeah and and then I always sure member like you know we had on will Jordan. And he was thrilled to be on the show. He told everyone Israel and then I visited him in hospital and couldn't believe that I would be make the trouble of visiting and I thought you you know with just that story alone. I thought this is the reason we do the podcast to tell these people thank you. We were remember and bill macy how proud he was on the show. He kept begging us for links. We could send it to everybody. And all the people you knew and his poker buddies to to performers former who are late in life and have been mostly forgotten. It's a nice. It's a nice pick me up for them. I think. It's a nice reminder that they're still important diff- certainly was the first time bill. macy almost died. He was in the hospital and he called us because he wanted a ploy he The interview for all all the doctors and nurses will say we're GONNA WE'RE GONNA do a special patriots episode of for for Patrons Where we talk about the The people bowl that we did have on the show that we lost this year So we'll do that. And and Michael is going to stick around for that. Thank you guys for having me. It was a blast. Thanks stance preventer. Thanks Steven Varley. I'll tell you who's WHO's not dead. And who's in the room the late Rayburn now. He pants fall. Churn memorialize every episode. I realized that's true. You're memorialize in every single podcast episode. Episode he is a minor Internet make scrolling through is. Is this show six months to watch all the things. You're not on a Mike. Nobody can hear you are you. Are you still looking up. Rutger hauer films the and all we love you. Thank you guys thank you serious. Thank you star Burns. Thank you Michael Weber. Then kids see on Patriots. When I was just I asked my mother? What will I be rich? Here's what she in the field yours not ours to see. Que Sera Sera. Aw what will will be when I grew and fell in love. I asked my sweetheart. What lies Here's what we say. Kay San will will be in the future's not ours to see que said what will be. We'll be now I have they asked what walk. Willa Hansen Allievi rich. I little futures at all nice to see K. Santa will be case Jason.

Kaye Ballard Gilbert Oscar Hollywood New York Rinaldi rutger hauer Shea Frank Sinatra Robert Evans producer Larry Tyler Moore Jackie Brown Sharon Tate murder director Albert Finney Dustin Hoffman New York City Gilbert Godfrey Ed Wood