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#183 Jamie Lerner Self-Care: If You Dont, Who Will?
"Welcome everybody's time once again for the next chapter with charlie hedges as he explores turning the page on his life. And your hey charlie. Hey paul today. We have an important discussion with therapist. Jaime lerner on the value of taking care of yourself. Our thesis is this. If you don't exercise intentional care for yourself you will be absolutely no good to anyone else on this show jamie and i are interested in the details of self care both and tangibly. What exactly can you do on a regular basis to build your own emotional bank account so that you have plenty leftover to give to others with that on with the show Jaime lerner how fun to have you once again on the next chapter with charlie. Welcome to be here. Thank you for inviting me again again. You know jamie the last time we did a podcast together. It was show number sixty and today we are recording. Show number one. Eighty three now was just over three years ago in january two thousand eighteen. How my goodness it's great to be back. Well it's great to have you back. I had such a fun time last time. And so i'm i'm looking forward to it. I've got. I have to tell you. And i and i want everybody to know that three years ago jamie. You gave me some personal advice. I don't know if he gave it to me personally. Or if it was done on the on over on the air but you told me we were talking about my difficult childhood and you told me to quit looking through the eyes of a child and look at my childhood through the eyes of an adult and you know that sticks with me today. And anytime i i think about that i think through the eyes of an adult and i think about that situation entirely differently because of you for folklore. Nice sometimes to have a different perspective. Oh well yeah and it's nice. Sometimes they have somebody that can offer you that perspective so before we immerse ourselves in our topic. Today as i was reading a bit. I would love to hear you speak on a couple of things that you that you wrote on your website and i'd like to know what you mean by two things one. You are a pleasure junkie. I love that. And secondly you're and what you're calling your third life. You're too young for a third life. So i'm very curious would those are all about. I spent a lot of time doing things that give me pleasure. Bad is in many ways. I think that that's really looked down upon in society that if we are to indulge ourselves and do things that please However i gravitate towards things that really connect me and bring me a lot of joy and my life is about that connection with my fault also pleasure and then of course to all and it's interesting because i think that wearing. We nurture and nourish herself in the connection that were having and then recreating with ourselves that we become so filled up that we just fell over into an onto everyone around us in a really lovely way bowl. I like to think of myself as the living breathing. Example off all that is possible when we are really Other no relaxing into healthcare finding pleasure and Sharing ourselves in a way. That's bob utah. I so agree with you. And i'm i'm sort of into pleasure. I read so much of the stoic. Mark serreze in seneca the younger but i i noticed seneca coding epa occurs. And so i read epa kuras. And you know. Unfortunately his epa corey and philosophy has been bastardized into some kind of drinking. And what do you call those things so sexual thing or jeez yes. What do you call those things shows shows. You know where i live. But that is not that has a representative occurs at all epa curse was in sort of sat cloth but he was all about life is to be enjoyed. Life is is a pleasurable experience. I really resonate with that. I think you're right that when you live a pleasurable life you'll live an attractive life. I like that the way you put that so talk about attractive lives what the heck is a third life while. I'm probably on my life by now. But i had my Children very young. I had my profession very young. I have grandchildren no way. Oh yes i have. Four grandchildren four beautiful grandchildren. And the most wonderful thing that i was there and assisted in each and every one of the birth which was amazing. Like a separate flights in itself. But i think that we are in reinventing ourselves over and over and over again and especially when i think that we have the ability to just continue to evolve and fifth reinvent herself though i think i will probably have nine live by the time on dong which are wonderful certainly identify but you know what really rouses my curiosity and that is because i female leadership female wisdom is very important to me that the divine feminine is a very important aspect and so i'm just curious. Why do you think that women would have maybe more opportunity or more likelihood to reinvent themselves. 'cause i think we hassle back why i think that women The tape on so many different roles and we wear so many different hats that becomes a part of who we are. I think fat especially now. Women have much greater opportunity to do just that the continue to reinvent themselves but a lot of it is because they need to. I'm going off of chart here. What is reinventing yourself. Look like because. I wrote a book twenty five years ago. That was ahead of its time. It was called Getting the right things right personal strategies for reinventing the life you want and that was long before anything was written on reinventing so i have my ideas about reinvention. But i'm i'm curious. What are yours all what's happening now. You know women or and probably men to are out of the workplace and in their homes and there are teachers needing to become teachers and literally for children in learning every day with remote learning. I mean we. Women are masters at adapting to whatever is needed. We just are and were very well equipped to do it. And it's also interesting about reinvention. Is that we lose a lot of something. That is very important along the way which is south care so women are masterful in reinventing themselves and then they also are masterful in forgetting themselves. How did how did how did he know. We're going to make a transition to self care. I mean seriously on my sheet in front of the next. The next bullet point was self care and you made a wonderful trenches transition to it. So that is what. I'd like to talk about now. And and focus probably the majority of our time is self care and personal responsibility and and especially in this current cova time of chaos and confusion and and one of the things that you told me about when we chatted before the podcast was that you described your passion. Your current passion for helping people find themselves in the moment. Can you tell me what that what that means to you. Find yourself in the moment every moment that we can be present and it is just a moment by moment and establish or reestablish connection with ourselves that that is the ultimate in self care and and i think a lot of that comes from being able to manage our thoughts and then are feeling but first and foremost our thaw and i think it's important cut. We rarely slow everything down and allow ourselves to be in that moment contain. That's why one of the most important things of how we can care for ourselves and then others it's always about foul firth and then others. It's kind of a win win for everybody. Jesus talks about that. When he says you know i it's always quoted love god and love your neighbor but what's always left out is love. Love your neighbor as yourself and to me that assumes self love precedes other love the cacao kangaroo barber care for another if they're not taking care of yourself self love is sort of. it's almost frowned upon that. You are selfish. You are ego centric if you do that and and if you take care of yourself too much and yet and yet if you don't take care of yourself you're you're no good to anyone else you know want when you could on the airplane they tell you to put your mask on on first before assisting other people and there's a reason for that. That is a universal truth. We cannot care for anyone until we care for ourselves without feeling resentment and if we feel is not much then we are not caring for ourselves or another. So you know. I think people don't really understand what it means to wrap third loving arms around themselves and nourish and nurture themselves into connection. That is the most unselfish thing that you can do. And in some ways it sure responsibility if you're then going to assume the care of others whether be children or a teacher or if you're in any role where you're in a leadership role it's just not possible to do it without having spent some time with yourself and nourishing yourself and if they're self some something to give agree with you on that and i was thinking about taking care of ourselves. There's there's just a number of of ways to do that in you know we're going to get into tactics toward the end of the Of the of the of the show. But right. Now i i'd like to disorder. Get a big picture of what do you mean by taking care of yourself. I know account. I have an idea of what i need by but but i'm curious what your interpretation is kind of goes hand in hand with taking personal responsibility to understand that really. It is known responsibility to care for your responsibility to begin to have an understanding of what year in the evening for yourself and then to figure out a way a gentle loving way to kind of implement some of that self care and most people do the opposite. They expect other people to care for them. They don't even know their own news. They expect others around them to know what they need and they expect that they should be given what they need. There's this really Twisted sense of entitlement. just because the very I think the other interesting thing about women reinventing themselves then they get to hide behind all of the roles that they've taken on as they never care for themselves the end up feeling resentful. They ended up feeling overwhelmed. The end up feeling all the things that they should be feeling and yet known even knows what they need. Not even know. They haven't even taken the time to figure out like okay but only know what i need for my. What do i need to do first thing in the morning but the guy can so myself up before we take care of all these other people so to step into that role of personal responsibility for sending the morning and ask yourself now. What are what. I need so myself. That is such a loving and lovely question to ask one and then to answer it with you. Maybe coffee before. I serve an to eat something before i i just some basic things. That really remind us that we're important. How counter cultural that is because we you know we're we're thinking we always have to be givers don't we we. We can't be. we can't be takers. we can't be an it's not even really taking it's it's more of. You're giving love from an empty cup and you've got to fill that love your love cup for yourself because unless you do you end up resenting the very people that you are serving and it doesn't feel good on your and it doesn't feel good on there and either never feels good to be given some things from someone who is representing you in the process so yet to unconditionally give to hand. That is a lovely feeling for the giver and the receiver and the way we get there is by taking care of ourselves so that we can give which hand alternate goal to feel good about the giving and to feel good about the person who is receiving what your kid i have for the last year been very involved on my own in in the in the sort of tradition node as mystic christianity and the mystics and and and i'm reading people of the thirteenth to fourteenth century teresa viola saint john of the cross and and teresa viola sort of my my guru. Now and she was. She was in the fifteenth century. And they talk about spending this time in divine contempt mystical prayer. But she is very strong that you do that in doing that. You are taking care of yourself your relationship with yourself yourself in the divine how how you relate in the divine but that that then becomes the resource for helping others that so you don't you don't just folk off. Yeah you don't just focus on yourself and forget everybody else. You have to focus on yourself but then the result is it results in a self care you. You can't help but want to share that with other people tackle once again. It's a win win for every beautiful idea. Now you want. You talked about personal responsibility in that. And i've even thought about making when i make a title for this show and we'll see what happens after the show. They make the title. But i i'm working on a premise of the me. Look at my own title here. Self care your responsibility to be responsible for yourself. Well is it so you would. You says it's good. I'm glad you agree because you're not title if you said no i don't believe any of that however it's a turn off for people a lot of people do not want to be responsible from south. They feel resentful that they should have to be responsible for themselves. They feel entitled that others should be responsible for their happy. And i think that it just needs to be thought about in a different way because who would know better for you than you know and yet we expect others to know what we need what. We consider south for first and foremost look. We need the great question. People don't ask themselves that question very often. But do you want. Don't ask themselves that either but people will tell you all day long what they want and what they get is more of what they don't want so and it's always someone else's all so you know if that doesn't work very well that way no it doesn't and and how in the world like you said if we haven't even really investigated pin through the thought process of understanding what we want and what we like in life. How in the world is someone else supposed to know that you know great costal one and yet we expect them to set us fai our needs and we've not identified their their needs. I mean our our needs and how they need to respond. You know My listeners heard have heard this before. But my wife. And i for probably. We've been married thirty six years and for at least twenty five of those. If not more. We take every year between christmas and new years now. This happens throughout the year but we take an intentional time of three days away so we can have two nights in one place. You know two full days in place and we ask each other So how was i. What kind of husband was last year. What kind of wife was i. And and what do you want from me. How can i serve you in helping. You find. You know helping you fulfill your needs and so we're forcing ourselves to identify our knees and until the other person. This is what i would like fantastic. I mean that's that's a conscious of our relationship a nice guy. Yeah yeah you know a lot of good writing on that jamie is. Are you familiar with the land baton. Elaine de button depends on how you want to pronounce it. The scarlet life. You know he's rich and really good stuff on that he's ridden maybe the best stuff of love between a man and a woman as anyone is written for you know. He's just barely turned forty now but he just has has exceptional writing on that. You know what i wanna do. I i want to go a bit deeper but before we do. I'd like to take a quick break. And then we will come back. And we're going to pursue a little bit more about this personal responsibility and how the victim mentality may come into play in that. Hi there this is charlie hedges. And you're listening to the next with charlie and my very special guests. Today's jaime lerner A woman who is a therapist adventurer pleasure seeker and a cute devil tae of self care. And that's exactly what we're talking about. And and i think she has so much teaches that i've learned so much from jamie and jimmy. We've talked about a bit about personal responsibility. And that letting other people know not expecting other people to somehow somehow be able to read our minds in our souls and understand what we need. We need to articulate that. What other kinds of personal responsibility you know. We're talking about our own personal responsibility and our self care. How can i take responsibility for myself. Do you have any examples of that for me now. I think that away are rewarded in society. Forbidden since Mainstream media that. They reminded us every moment. That's come we are the victim of everything. We have no control so for me. I always suggest to people to turn off the television and to Find a new source. That is a little more emotionally intelligent. That will allow us to feel good when you're done breathing. You're listening to or watching in fetter feeling paralleling cars. We have to take personal responsibility for what we are chasing to consume and hall. We will fail one way or done firmly cloud video. You know that's brilliant. You know is that we have to take responsibility for what we consume in our media. And and i find pretty much nothing but danger when not not just. Tv in general but for me. It's tv news and tv news. You know their their purpose is to stir up controversy in stirrup. Stir up resentment and anger and that victim mentality is just. It is so common on on and it's and it's in it's not one political side or the other it's all it is just so unhealthy because it doesn't teach self responsibility. It doesn't teach being rewarded for not for being victim but be rewarded for being a personal herself hero. And do you agree with that. I do agree with that. But also what's more important how you feel after you continue that because if you are not killing. Us clue for gale. It's not working on. Most people really feel terrible. They tell so soft and shutdown and the opposite of empowers the peel very different politics so there are many other choices but one could make in terms of how they were gonna get there do of the game and if our personal responsibility to be more discern institute something that allows us to that what we need an move along and feel good. Yeah i i like that you know is is i. Read your In on your website which we will post in our show notes that that tells people instructs people how to get a hold of you and how to participate you. have you have. Coaching sessions That are you know i. It took a look at them. And they're they're they're really good and very very very very helpful. And it's what you call the integrative approach to wellbeing and You wrote something jamie that that that really struck me and that was sometimes we simply need permission to redirect ourselves inward back to that most important relationship the one that we have with ourselves and and i like the word permission that we need to give ourselves permission because we don't were certainly not getting permission from our culture so who determines where we're headed in life if not ourselves if we're looking for other people to determine our direction where we're going to end up in in not the right place for us. We have to look within ourselves while. I think we have all the answers and i think that will we are tuned into ourselves that we are guided to exactly what we are. Maybe and wanting for some but there's nothing out there outside of it comes from the inside out so we will always. We would tune in that we will navigate quite well for and so trust on might be a little scary at first but you always know the answer herself to matter how me you don't know how or why but used to so. I like to tell people that. Consider themselves for all in greatest reform. Brilliant and sometimes i have found with me that my choices are not necessarily really strongly sent conscious choices but they are hints of intuition that this is the right. Move or charlie. There's something amiss here you know. you can't identify it. All the facts looked straight and all the facts. Look good to make this decision. But i've got this little haunting feeling that something is amiss and i think we really need to pay attention to those haunting little feelings because those are i believe. That's our souls way of speaking to us. Apple require intuitive. Knowing for sure now how does that work with something. You said earlier that i was that that i i i was also struck by and that was that we begin our changed through thought not through feelings because feelings can be can be they can be those victim feelings can be those desperate feelings in an insecure feelings and lack of confidence feelings. But but i agree with you that that they began with thought. So how how do you see. Thought intersecting with intuition. Ask people if they start tuning into the internal dialog that they're having with themselves probably all day long. What are the conversations that you're having and essential because usually they're not very nice people say some really not nice things about themselves to themselves and about other all day long so would we began to become more conscious. Howard speaking our and howard feeling what. We're watching on television and power feeling and we start to make connections between the dialogue and our own heads. Is i lock on television then. I think that we can pick a moment and ask ourselves is like this work and usually it's not working. It isn't feeling good and at that point. Then you have a choice then catches start fifteen. They'll the possibly called selectively fifty. We catch the information and began to focus on the parts to atra does and none of it pills cuts than you really need to find a completely different source or change the tone of the conversation that you're having yourself about yourself really a great way to start being very discerning about where you're putting now that requires a bit of self confidence. Doesn't it or do you. How did the confidence to trust yourself. That you've spent so long questioning yourself and spent so long telling yourself of stories about yourself because you know remember those more than the positive stories. How do we. How do we develop that that confidence and trust in ourselves that that we really are adequate more than adequate where we're probably the best source. Not probably we are the best source of information for ourselves. How do we develop that kind of confidence fall once again. You know i think or over. That came from probably was from long ago. So it's like what you had mentioned earlier if you could begin to look at those experiences through the eyes of your now where you are right here now as an adult. He thinks that you see them very differently. And then were available to us a little bit of emotional intelligence and ally yourself to shift from prof arc that it's not true if it's not true though we can drag vibration louis and otherwise a lot of from whenever and just play it over and over and over again kind of like a mantra without steph trusted we need to factor just like we need to fact check the unique ask ourselves like if it's even really true and ninety nine percent of it isn't it's not true whatever that was from whoever told you those things if effects apply to them. It's not relevant. So what does supply what is well. How are you feeling about you. Not hard you feeling because someone told you what you first effective that is adult once again. Who have to take personal responsibility in began to ask ourselves so the questions so that we can get the facts straight and i feel. That's a great idea is that we're in the age of fat checking and it's always about the other and it's about you know news but we need to fact check about ourselves and say is what we believe about ourselves. Is that based on current reality or is that based on some experience that i had in the past and very likely in early childhood but it goes on certainly through adalah. We'll go through our whole life. But we allow negative experiences to dominate our thought patterns about ourselves rather than the positive experiences and in it takes a real choice. I had to wrestle with that. It takes a real choice to remember the positive. Because i had a tendency to look back even though i had you know what would be considered Successful and and a rather healthy adult life. But i would look back at it and i would only see the negatives you know emotionally that would just all would come to my mind and i and i had to make you know. I'm fond of the of the term conscious choice. I make a conscious choice not to do that. To take a look and remind myself of the good things that happen in life and you know what doggonit jamie. The good things that i did i i did some good things i i actually an and that's you know. I know that is going to sound very egocentric. But i have to admit those if i don't admit those where am i doesn't sound aether center at all. That sounds like you having a real honest conversation. Theirself about who you are and wearing finality. That's like that's impact. Do you think this is something that is easier with someone like myself who is entering that later phase of life. You know post i. Am you know. Just post seventy. And i and i'm finding wisdom really beginning to come and and i'm seeing life very differently than i than i did. In my first half. Richard rohr breaks it into two halves. You know the first half the second half in the first half is very appropriately driven by ego building that we need to build ego and second half is assuming that we have our eagle built and we can dismiss it and we can lose it and we can be centered on love and centered on on giving out love. Do you think this this approach is easier as you get older than it is. When you're younger propen how pires one years of not been happy. And when you give people a choice i mean. Let them know that he happy in connecticut yourself and feeling good about yourself is an option. I think that opens the door for people because a lot of people don't even know that that's impossible so you know the other thing. Is that if you are unhappy and you want to stay there. Like that's fine but take responsibility for man terrible. I have no interest in things happen. I have no interest in valuating hall. I feel and what happened. And i applaud that. I say that's fantastic. You've made a really good choice for your spouse. They're not a victim to any. And that is powerful that you cannot go through the whole life waiting. Everybody for everything. No matter how awful it was early on and chances are a lot of strength that you have as a person say where as a result of some of those things that happened when you were drunk or an earlier part of your life and you should embrace fat and own and feel really good about it and possibly even thank those people for giving you the opportunity to be who are today because bar. I you know. I've learned through mentors and and and personal coaches that there have been voices that have inside of me that wants to protect me and that that i need to be cautious about stepping out because i get hurt and they are they. They're just simply voices from long ago. That says don't do this because you can get hurt. And what i have learned to do is not necessarily reject those offhand but to understand that those are protective voices. And i need to thank those voices. Thank you for trying to protect me. I understand what you tried to do. But you are no longer necessary. I very powerful a place for that and this is no longer at the time with a play. I mean that's fantastic. Thank you thank you. You know what i'd like to do is as we're beginning to. Oh i i. I was going to say. We're big beginning to wrap up a little bit. But i do. Have i wanna keep quoting you. Because you are so quotable. As i as i read and i liked your phrase i think you know it just reinforces to ever. We've been talking about so far. And that you said that we all need to indulge in self care. there's something about that verb indulge. I like that. I like self indulgent. And you know it's again not not not socially popular but that we need to indulge in the self care so we can live. I mean as you said so many. Choose to live unhappy. Lives thinking their victim or thinking that they're powerless. And therefore you know as a as a member of alcoholics anonymous and addictions what we did. Is we just numbed it. You know we rather than rather than deal with anything just numb our way out of it and that's no solution because that doesn't end up healthy and and parts at work. I mean if it worked. I was take great. Do it it. Doesn't it doesn't but feeling really good and then having the drink if they're not an alcoholic to accentuate. You're already good feeling great or detail really good and then to sit down and eat like a you know a pint of ice cream. 'cause feeling good in just wanna feel better fat worth but to eat ice cream to feel better. It doesn't work or to have a drink. You know them not to come guilty classroom. Yes yes and i am I am a non addicted ice cream eater. And when maybe a couple of times a month i will get a pint of ben and jerry's and there is no pretending that i'm gonna need half of it. I've tried to just eat that whole thing. And you know i i only twice a day. I do intermittent fasting. My weight is great. You know i. I'm healthy. So i can afford the pound you know it and and knowing that i'm not gonna take it. I'm not gonna have any for for a week. And you know the the pound will go and a couple of days and men are so fortunate. We can lose weight so easily compared to women men talk about women and men. I just what my wife has to go through. I just i think god daily. I'm not a woman. Says she just all this stuff that she has to do. And and you know i. I don't have to go through any of that. You know i'd like to spend time. Are our last few minutes on a couple of things here. And i think we've probably covered it for. I want to rehearse what you. And i talked about some tips for indulgent self care. One of them was to reduce or or completely lose our our intake of television especially especially news. And then i even notice jamie some things that were you know i like crime crime dramas sometimes but sometimes they're just too much. They're just too dark. And and and i just don't feel good afterwards. Just say you know why it just shows the evil side of people in the and it is. It is not good for me. And i've told my wife you know. I think we need to quit watching this show. this is. i can't handle it. And and i think when you recognize that the best thing to do is even if you're in the middle of june say enough i'm gonna go watch it in the jungle to honor honor. How you're feeling when you're doing whatever it is that you're doing that isn't feeling good. Honor and take a conscious choice to do something different. Yes honored and and and and i would add and to recognize an into. Give yourself permission they. You can stop a television series halfway through. Say this was not good for me. Even though i'm curious how it ends. The process of getting there is not good for me and not even. There's a bucket reading a lot of people get halfway through box. They're not enjoying it one bit but they feel compelled to finish it. It's like why. Why would you waste all that time reading something. That isn't interesting to you and doesn't feel get it you guys. You're preaching to the choir jamie. I i believe if i'm not into a book by twenty five pages it's gone and then after one hundred one hundred fifty pages. If i think. I've caught the gist of the book. I'm done because so many books are repeating themselves in the second half already. What they they said in the first half because publishers have a formula you know they want so many pages they want one hundred eighty or two hundred forty pages and even though you were done with the book at one hundred twenty you just have to add fluff and i know enough about publishers to know that i don't have to read the fluff. I can read. If if i get what i want in the first half. I just put the book down and and go with another awful grades. Your not a quitter. No no you're is as a matter of fact your the opposite. I think i think. I think you're you're an adventurer. You say have already reached the mountain of this book. This book is just just you know the the old paredo eighty twenty rule. I've got eighty percent out of it. I don't need to re eighty percent on the first half. I don't read the second half for the twenty percent unless i choose to read the last chapter. Sometimes i'll do. I'll just go and read the last chapter. I wanna talk about you. Mentioned emotional. self awareness e. q. I'm a big believer and knowing myself emotionally. What drives me what haunts me. Where i'm strong. And and where i may have deficiencies are are you. Are you a fan of of emotional intelligence. I really am. And i think that talking it's really helpful if you earn any kind of Parenting loan leadership rural relationship with somebody We think it's a. It's a really good gayle yet again. And it helped us along to the emotionally intelligent and helps us navigate of angle for curation. Do you like the instruments the the instruments or any of those things you need that you are a fan of over others. Well i liked the concept that are simple to break down to understand what emotional intelligence is and higher. They can tap into any given moment because we all have the ability to be emotionally intelligent taking a test. Yeah yeah that is good and you know you continue. I'm gathering from our conversation. You continue to emphasize that you already have pretty much everything you need to know. You just need to access it and to consciously access it and to listen to yourself and to pay attention to yourself and sometimes that's journaling. Sometimes that's meditation or some solitary practice of of identifying. What is in your court taking that time to to clear your mind best you can and and understand what's driving you and and i think we would all be shocked to know that we already know what we need. If we just after oval. Yeah you believe the hundred percent the asked by do but i think we're so used to everyone else telling us what we need. Which is it's interesting. It's so difficult because on one hand everyone's telling us what we need and on the other hand were asking others could give us and we're never asked me herself like every product is being sold. It's been two cars. Don't telling us what we need. But do we ask for stuff. Like what do we need most important questions like. What do you what you need in this moment. And then the next moment and so if the great question. Mary could probably yourself every single moment of the day and give botham only total lifting for the antle. It will come to but you know what i think we need jamie and i i think so. Many people need is we don't need gurus but we need guides because we're not used to asking ourselves those questions. We're unfamiliar with those questions. We don't even even first of all. We don't even know where to go to answer the questions. And then if we get answers with a difficult time interpreting them and that's why that's why a guide or a coach or you know someone to talk to just appeared that that's working through that with you. I think it's helpful not to take this journey by yourself. Yes but on the other hand when you ask yourself a question and you are quiet enough to listen for the answer. New are guided to exactly where you need to be can give me an example of that you give a give a personal example of how that how you came across that somebody is asking themselves the question and then they all slept are struck with an inspiration to google search something there to look for resource and then they have a list of resources than team canada but intruder play their attractive to one. Then they click on that and that looks interesting but no the read a little bit about it and it doesn't feel as good as they saw they go back and then another one and that one feels a little better for they go a little further and explore that foul. This really resumes picking. And so i think of ourselves the time and the opportunity to trust herself. That lee can intuitively to what we are needing south if we ask the question and then are quiet enough here. That is it helpful. Donald journal. That jamie i think for everybody different. Everyone has a different loss. But i think we are inspired at times students. Who don't even know what inspired us but we're like. Oh my god. What a pain kicking. No i was so yucky that i found. I darn coincidences. And you weren't lucky. But into the phone your guidance and he trusted you run into it so you thought your take personal responsibility for that too or just the opposite. If you're working with someone and it's not feeling like it's not right find someone else to work. Trust yourself but what are. You should be telling you what you need to be working on and what you need to be doing. You know you know what you need to be doing and you know you need to work and take personal responsibility and find someone who will support that people end up in therapy years and years in year they get nowhere. It's just unbelievable. But they don't even know they have an option to get out of therapy. Oh my goodness about that is that is that that guru oriented that we feel in an odd sort of way. It is almost like a victim in that in that we're in. We don't trust our capacity to know about ourselves when we feel like. We need an expert to tell us about ourselves. We need someone to and and and you're consistent in arguing that we don't need experts that we have everything we need already built inside of us we just need to discover processes perhaps and in confidence in in discovery ourselves and i think we are experts for ourselves. I don't think experts. I don't consider myself an expert for anybody. Do you know but you know how rare that is. Jamie did you know that is. That is a wonderful place but i. I don't know how many people really feel expert in themselves that they feel lost themselves. I i don't know what i want. If i only knew what my purpose in life was if i only knew what i was here to do and to and to accomplish and if i only knew what would self-fulfilment would mean to me because we have so many con- conflicting sources out there telling us. This is what you need. This is what you don't need and you know in our american self-help culture is almost. It's almost destructive. Think they're air fell more consciousness and more awareness and more empowerment to Discover fell. That is certainly. You can find many more resources today about that than ever befall and i also say that if you break it down to end this moment. What's my purpose in this moment. Because my need in this moment it just makes it so much easier. And if i just saw inconvenient minimum which is really a lovely place and then on to the next mom and shook theories of known and hope please within all of that a lot of pleasure in good field. That is so good and so to wrap up our time. What i wanna do is talk about the coaches and guides for those of us. That may not be exactly clear on the process. You have you have on your website. You have a process. The people can contact you and forever. So brief encounters think even called them quickies. That's called the quickie a lovely texting option. Yes it is and The other thing about working with me when people contract they tell me how much time they want by a block of time and tell me how much money they want. I don't tell down with a knee. They tell me what need and so at the perez skinny. I precision the person as their own experts. Which is really different so have to wanna take a little personal responsibility to do Do you offer do offer any kind of any kind of survey or assessment centers so they can help identify what they need. Because that's a very difficult question. Sometimes now they don't really need to know what they need to know how much time they want for their russians so literally. You buy a path of time. They reach out to me for my first session. I by twenty one. May i reach the person we have twenty minutes for the next session. They get to ask them for playing for the next session. Homage time might need imaging. I'm not going to tell me what you. But i'm so happy to accommodate whatever this evening and therein lies take personal responsibility and the beginning the process of tractable soft which is so night. It's great now. no. I'm going to have your your website. Where they were interested. People can get in touch with you through your website. And and i will have the url but just for on the air. What is the A dress jamie that they can get you at. Www dot j. m. i. e. cash elliara ner.com so jaime lerner dot com and they will be it will be folks will be on the show notes and so you can just there'll be a link and you can just tap into get a hold of jamie and i really encourage you to do. So she's She's a masterful coach and and she will uses what she calls. Integrative approach of life and self learning jaime lerner. what a treasure. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. Uncle how much for inviting my pleasure. And i want everyone to know as i said that your website address will be posted on the show notes. One thank all our listeners for tuning into the next chapter with charlie end until next. This is charlie hedges signing off by now.