9 Episode results for "Ten Ninety Nine Percent"
#44 Coronary Calcium Score and CTAs: 5 Pearls Segment
"Hi everyone the stralia this is a special episode because it marks the first episode that where we are partnering with ac pete the american college of physicians for see any credit will lengthy exact you around the show notes it's a pretty strong episode in my very humble unbiased opinion so if you're in training center this episode you're attending or someone else who could benefit from this means of continuing medical education in with that qb intro this documentary freed after tragedy induct revenue harmon this is the core i am five boroughs podcast bringing you hire as in space pearls today were discussing crossing stress hosting corners cpa's part to we had the pleasure of interviewing doctor pan douglas fir this episode professor cardiology at do she has many research grants including from an age as well as heart float she's a former president of those american college of cardiology in american society an echocardiogram she kind of a big deal i think we've covered a lot of ground and that might be understatement of the decade so this is part two of our corner diagnostic series the last five pro episode focused on stress testing and all the various flavors there of so by all means we invite you to take a listen to that besides doctor douglas you'll hear from doctor craig cat susan in while you cardiologist spit on a few of our episodes before including proponents and stress testing leader on me episode episode you'll hear from are period after a sheet it that he also from n y u n again we are joined by a new friend of the pie doctor avin harmon from university of virginia hey great to be bad guys and i think you'll agree that are losers would be just shocked paul what if they knew the technological hurdles i had to overcome to make this podcast work in terms of you know both think that wasn't doing me any favors i didn't realize we still have my school power laptop l a m in let's start on the questions will be covering remember detest yourself after each of the five pearls remember the more you test yourself the deeper you're learning gains role one overview of functional verse anatomical testing what the differences between functional stress testing anatomical test and what are examples of each pro to coronary calcium scoring what information to the corner calcium score give you an what's its role in diagnosing in managing coronary rt disease pearl three stress tests first corner cd andrew grams or cpa's what information kind of coronary cpa's to provide that a functional stress can't end is their dad at a support they use of one motel eddie over these other pro for limitations of corners cj in which patients should we avoid a coronary see tha what challenges you physicians face in obtaining coronary cpa's for patients that's pro five interbreeding corners cpa's what do we do with information obtained acquiring cj end how do we communicate those results for patients so so guys you know i've done a ton of reading about stress testing recently for these episodes and i think i finally identified an under appreciated concept of a lot of us don't fully appreciate how honest about so when we think about stress tests like all the different iterations of stress test that we labor drew last episode they're actually half the story when it comes to a diagnostic test stratified coronary artery disease way you gotta be kidding me there is more yes absolutely and it turns out a whole episode worth more there's actually two broad categories gorey's reporter disease testing functional test an anatomical test functional test wrote we talked about in the last episode studies like exercise you cagey stress that goes a nuclear tests but there's this whole other category of testing anatomical tests oh man i feel the stress bombs come first sure sure but maybe it'd be helpful the ashley contrast the two types of testing so if i'm remembering right about what i took away from the functional test episode functional stress test tell us about the physiological consequences of and obstruction right so patient undergoes a stressor and then this test helps me understand is there a scheme yet i eat is there hegi changes are wall motion abnormalities but sounds like dysfunctional stress tests might not be the complete picture sure stress test you just have i know it gave me i'm but there could be on the iceberg below the surface that you don't know about and you absolutely visualize that would be a starter douglas points how dysfunctional stress tests don't tell us about the corner in anatomy nami of art patient or they amount apply burton qb anatomical tests typically we think of visas various types of coronary c t imaging right and we need to be careful about how he used the term coronary c t which often gets thrown around corners teasing umbrella a term that includes a couple of similar but separatists both of which involve running a patient to the city's scanner those recordings already calcium score in in quarter ctn geography recordings cj right right sixteen team is big picture framework we we talked about functional stress testing being only half the story are there any downside anatomical testing right saw anatomical testing provides us information about patients coronary anatomy a plaque burden they don't give us information if that plaque is actually causing scheme you entirely possible the heaven tightly and you know how tightly and that does not cause blow disturbing and in fact is is quite common all right so what i'm hearing from this pearl in terms of coronary artery disease risk ratification station testing is that inner are still we have functional tests classics stress tests quote unquote that tell us about ski me up but not necessarily about structure and then on the other hand we have anatomical testing corners he cheese that include calcium scores and coronary coronary cpa's that help us better understand plaque burden but don't necessarily tell us if that plaque is causing a scheme yet but not so fast that recaps ray dodger douglas's quipped remind us with new technologies such as fractional flow reserved seats he also knows f so far cici we might actually be able to give both anatomical in functional information f f r c t pain from already acquired c t anatomically images through a big data process to model coronary flow and it actually models 'em human amick significance of lesions much as in basin fractional reserve does which is seen racing fsr fractional closure results will be the gold standard for a corner relation all right so the first non cardiologists invasive fsr the doctor douglas is referring to happens in the calf lab remembering the catholic china's see the narrowing of looming but during the procedure cardiologist can use something called fractional flow reserve it's a special tests tells us the human dynamics the significance of lesion and that's all done invasive lane so that's the cool thing about as far as he cheese it's actually non invasive end users high quality c t images puts all those images together does some crazy not engage the actual information about blood flow across lesions that's the sound of my mind i should point out that a major major covy out is that somebody fr technology is proprietary that means that it's still super expensive we put it in here for completeness sake but for the remainder this episode will focused mainly on coronary artery calcium scoring and coronary c t as these were the tests that intern is they're more likely to encounter on a daytoday basis all right let's kick off the toll already coronary cici with calcium floorings yes you guys i hostile if these days an icy coronary calcium ordered from the patient's prior clinic visits or sometimes it's added onto a coronary cpa's frankly i really don't know what to do with it i mean i really love like a who what when where why rundown of all things clinton calcium score as yet let's get to the basics here coronary calcium generally means advanced atherosclerosis end it matters coronary calcium has been demonstrated over and over again to be independently associated with coronary heart disease in eight symptomatic people and pour prognostic factoring those folks we already know have coronary disease so the tests the tech coronary artery calcification is pretty simple just a standard non contrast of jesse t it only takes about ten to fifteen minutes and zoomed in the coronary arteries nice but he's nine consi cheese come up with these coronary calcium score is in other words what is the korean calcium score actually mean basically if there's calcium leading plaques its density he is measured announced filled units and then multiplied by the area of illusion so the computers really just adding up the total scores of all of the legions to give us a composite score the reflects a patient's total corner apelike burden all right great so if if the score is telling telling us standardize lay the degree of caffeine plaque burden then what's score should worry us more than others the short answer here's that we should be concerned about anybody with a score greater than zero doubt give you rangers a lot of studies stratified patients and two groups usually that's zero to one hundred one oh one the four hundred and above four hundred is important to realize it the score isn't the only thing we care about calcium score fifty in a thirty five year old man is very different from a calcium score fifty in an eighty year old woman so to get a complete picture of someone's risk of coronary disease we have to also factor in a patient's age race and gender so to the rescue is a calculator help us do exactly that the basic calculator i yeah i know i thought anything above the seventy fifth percentile for the age gender and race warren sistan yeah mesa calculators are super important in interpreting it cac score and just build out the differential benefits of staten as a cock score increases i wanna mentioned a really awesome to at twenty eighteen paper burr publishing jack by mitchell at all these authors showed that as tax increases the number needed a treat with istan drops so if a patient cac scores relatively low let's say one to one hundred the number needed a treat with staten is one hundred to prevent patients first major adverse cardiovascular events but if that score is greater than one hundred the number needed a tree with a staten drops from one hundred all the way down to twelve to prevent that patients first major cardiovascular events nice thanks for setting that up but i'm thinking about what about the opposite spectrum of the coronary calcium score so how does a coronary score is zero help us to score zero might actually be the most helpful score of all there's this really compelling idea coined by doctrine this year from yale referring to is the quote unquote power of zero the tld are version of this is the patients with the corner you already calcium score zero don't need to be put on stand therapy incentives are not associated with a reduction in major adverse events in this group this idea of power zero super important because a lot of factors intermediate risk folks those that are five twenty percent ten year cbd risk yet so there's a lot of factors for that group of people who increase are risk for those patients so these are things like premature heart disease in a family member or auto immune disease like rheumatoid arthritis in that patient all of those things increase the risk but there's not much that decrease your risk for a patient there really isn't anything to decrease concern cac scores zero is one of those things things it let's downgrade a person's risk from intermediate too low risk and that is really powerful it basically let's just confidently identify previously intermediate risk patients as low risk patients and as such not needing stanton's that that is what mardi would call a strike yeah that one was really well deserved divers such an important point for me to but let's change gears to how we actually use these calcium score is again putting my hospital hospital is back on i'm thinking about patients who come in protesting and i'm wondering how do we use cassim score is in that calcium score as no role andy evaluation of chess my repeat that calkins boring has no role in me evaluation of chest pain all right then yeah greg was pretty unequivocal the calcium score and is only for eight symptomatic patients and for good reason that it doesn't tell you anything about soft fly it doesn't tell you anything about obstruction it doesn't tell you anything about whether somebody symptoms are related to coronary disease enough workers pointing out is that even a calcium score ubs euro doesn't necessarily mean absence of coronary disease it just means absence of coronary calcification okay all right so it's telling me just about the calcium i get that but wait what greg mean wits this quote unquote soft plaque what's all this stuff plaque business basically apply still a lot of calcium might actually be more stable compared to these quote unquote solve plaques sometimes called think cat five breath romas or take funds for those in the biz unlike the calcium leading plaques these soft blacks have been borders enlarged with the cores enter more like leader rupture olympic cores like twin easing you're lapd where maybe no he's he's he's might be a better visually yeah i'm thinking more about poached eggs though is that look super gamble and then easily looking rupture on you yeah you guys might have just ruined everybody's brunch but getting back on track so while it's rarely have vulnerable plaque without other calcified plaque around the take away is it in a patient with active chest pain the calcium scoring chemist these so called soft plaques which may very well pose a high risk for a patient right right so in the spirit of high value care what that is considered appropriate use of these coronary artery calcium score is the current appropriate use criteria essentially only recommend calcium score in the rich ratification of aid symptomatic patients who you're not really sure about their cardiovascular risk or if they may or may not benefit from staten and there are a bunch of situations where we find ourselves here right these are like the patient who is skeptical about starting staten despite in is cbd risk or in the teens or maybe that middle aged patient with the score five point five with a family history of premature heart disease the twenty eighteen aj acdc cholesterol medicine guidelines actually has some concrete examples where this test has really high yield soul link that in the show notes right so calcium score is really a clinic to non emergency department to will get those in the minute last thing i think any limitations we should know that before we wrap up caffeine scoring for sure it's worth noting that corner calcium scores might be less helpful in you're elderly patients it's common have calcification as we age so it's less useful in differentiating low risk with in that population another possible limitation their patients may ask you about is the radiation exposure skins on average there about point nine miller sievers upon which is pretty low compared annual background radiation of about three miller seabirds that is definitely handy no all right let me recap what i've learned so far though basically what am i understanding is that calcium scoring entails a quick non consi that tells us in a standardized way about patients coronary calcium score helps us in east symptomatic patient or intermediate risk for coronary disease and there's some question about the benefit of sat in therapy particularly there's the power of zero coronary calcium score that can actually help us reclassified patients economy at though is that the score is not as helpful in risk assessment investment of are elderly patients say over seventies or eighties who might already have a lot of calcification just with age and it's not helpful and patients with symptoms i chest pain mark this test off the list eight k watch out for those sauce plaques or twinkies or poached eggs team poached egg so let's move onto the corner e c t angiogram so which are gonna short and referred to his coronary cpa's let's make it happened cabin all right i feel like i'm seeing more and more patients in clinic who have had a corner e c t h often this is gotten done in the emergency department when they presented with chest pain i gotta be honest it's not something that i routinely order right same so let's breakdown first what exactly a coronary cts impales again were talking about putting the patient to the c t scanner just like for corner calcium score in the biggest difference here though is the study needs to be gated median synchronized the u k g to do this patients will likely receive a splash of mid to upper lauda slow the heart rate a hint of nitroglycerine the daily the coronary arteries in a squeeze by contrast to visualize and virtually reconstruct the corner we've asked litter so basically nothing too crazy it's easy bake cookies that garner's generous porsche receiver stanton yeah you guys must be hungry i think that part that i think is really interesting little that i've read is how these corners teaching either being incorporated into guidelines doctor douglas put this into perspective for us the uss guideline differ really dramatically from the european end even more so from they a uk guidelines in last week's who you should use of stress e c g and amongst the patient 'em can exercise you need to use farm aquatic stressor unless the ac cheese on a critical 'em in the uk you there there is no the guidelines have no world for stress tests in that clinicals scenario on their end the first test is a c t angie agreeing with josh douglas's referencing here is a national national institute of health care excellent or quote unquote nice guidelines and the uk nice thank you marty at these guidelines were updated in two thousand sixteen to include coronary c t as the first line evaluation first stable just paint this changes influence impart by the promise child and this is a big deal in the corner ac th world it was a randomized controlled trial randomize load intermediate risk symptomatic patients in a one to one fashioned either a functional rich stratification strategy edgy or corners cj and what the promise trout showed was that there is no difference between the functional stress test group and the corner e c t h group in the primary endpoint which was a classic mash up of cardiovascular badness after twelve months of following the kickers after looking at the people who did end up getting a left her cat so the people that actually came from the functional stress testing group were significantly more likely the get a cat that showed no obstructive disease so in other words you were less likely to get a meaningless cat if you were from the corner eighty acre also nice yet another study they know is the scott heart child as the name plies this study was conducted in scotland and looked at patients with chest pain been referred ambulatory cardiology clinics patients were randomized either a standard of care group or a standard of care plus corner is c t eight group this study was pretty shocking beezer demonstrated at one point six absolute reduction in the primary endpoint of cardiovascular disease and death end nonfatal am i in the corner e c t eight group this translated into whopping forty percent relative risk reduction that is certainly nothing to sneeze at is that a thing to people sneezing unimpressive trout result i don't know if it's just a way but seriously how could running a patient through a cg scatter alone reduced coronary heart disease death and nonfatal am i by so much i mean why are cg scanners meta in scotland whiskey killed his wife is a subsequent analyses demonstrated the reduction in the primary endpoint was driven primarily by the reduction in nonfatal emi but the results were still i opening the cardiologists i mean why would simply put in a patient through c t scan and have such a dramatic impact on mortality damn i that's a great question ebanon i'll answer it for you as it turns out patients in the corners hoochie aid group were far more likely to be extorted on evidence based therapies like aspirin in stat and then those in the standard of care group there's something very powerful about being able to see the location in type of corner plaques for both physicians and patients it's one thing to say you're a stress test positive and another thing to say my man you have plaque any this right there you guys can't see my but he is emphatically pointing directly into his lap morning straight at my imaginary patients are cia because studies have shown that the best way to get someone who take their status please no we don't have any evidence to support that claim but that's what does does help us put these landmark trials in the context they're very few times we have non a non invasive tests are diagnostic tests that we can directly connect that we've been improved outcomes but here's here's we were able to directly connected by randomized trial a better outcome both of those tiles and a few other ones and 'em are clearly showed that use of c t improved preventative care a over use of of stress testing and that may well be the mechanism for the benefit but needless to say when you've got a a real forty percent reduction in hard endpoint that that's kind of a hard fact to ignore and say you should do stuff that seems to be one of the reasons why coronary cpa's might be so useful is that they actually give us information that even a traditional coronary in geography can't very important limitation of conventional geography which you've identified is that the women could be changed in spite of significant blackburn and this goes back to the passive physiologic the process of atherosclerosis itself cpa's gives you information that a half dozen sometimes we think of a cap is the gold standard but a cat just tells you what the lumine looks like and the first thing that happens when you have have the process of atherosclerosis you have positive remodel meaning the actress roddick black grows out from the vessel it doesn't grow in it's only when there's a certain amount of plaque word that starts to the growing and so that might not be picked up monica you conceive pretty normal corners and somebody still has atherosclerosis and just this corners cpa's give us information about disease and the vessel wall it can also give us information about pipe morphology other thing that i cpa's does for you is it gives you information about black characteristics there's this idea of the vulnerable black being the one that's more likely a ruptured yeah that was a nice throwback to approach to where we talked about this soft plaque pick was in their unique shows and of course remember i do think of them as twinkies of the corner world you guys i have not looked at twinkies are poached eggs the same way working on it i'm like yeah let's let's recap of all things corner e c t h so what i'm hearing here is corners cpa's are simply gated arterial phase contrast cici studies that allow us to visualize the coronary arteries and we have randomized trial data that shows not only are they in non inferior dysfunctional stress tests but they also have the potential to reduce debt and nonfatal amies using coronary cpa's over standard care some added benefits the corner e c g eight is that it lets us know about atherosclerotic disease that wouldn't get picked up either with a stress test or even with a cast because it's not encroaching on the looming in corners he tees also pick up on black were ufology is all right guys after all of that i don't feel like were on this hype train for corner you see deejays and has running a full steam ahead i mean pump the brakes a little bit yeah honestly it's starting to feel like the hype level is approaching royal wedding status how dare you drag harry and meghan into this yeah that's pretty loud mardi prayed he laugh next thing you know marty is gonna be over here taking shots at the bachelor i mean i think we all can agree that cold and ended up being the most vanilla bachelors in season eight teams one pablo originalism probably the best character in franchise history but i can see i've hit a nerve year thing is that we should note that corner t t h is a great choice in all patients yeah yeah i mean i would preach on mardi it's okay i think getting into situations where corey cpa's might not be a good choice actually can help us talk about the elephant in the room i know a lot of people are probably wondering how do i choose between a functional stress tests senate anatomical test prep patient spoiler alert there isn't a right answer but perhaps kneeling which scenarios to avoid coronary cpa's can steer us in the direction of what ties we should maybe be worrying functional tests more well the first first big group of patients we should mention or those of the history of revenge motorization in for a couple of reasons first functional stress testing can give you an idea about my cardio viability which may be important if future interventions are being considered second for those who have had stands place in the past it's important the no the corners students can create imaging artifact which could make image pretty difficult to interpret another important point to remember is that images obtain during corners ctr obtain dern coronary feeling right we we remember this occurs dern testily this is why we give that splash tober law or calcium channel blockers if beta blockers their country indicated it's to reduce heart rate and length indict absolutely so patients have to be able to tolerate mid to upper law and truthfully it's a bit more than just a splash chicken sometimes be as much as one hundred and fifty milligrams of oral materials and for the same reason of getting good images in die athlete we run into issues when we have patients who have tech cardia that we can't control or say people with irregular rhythm and depending on your hospitals radiology policy things like venture and i tippy or even fed can interfere with getting the images that we actually want and finally despite what the got no commercials might have you believe calcium is a bad thing at least when it comes to corner e c t i might do they even make got no commercials unfortunately they don't i wish they did but here we talked about coronary calcification and as it turns out calcium deposits have attenuation on c t scans they approached the density of metal so that means the greater the calcium deposition the lower the diagnostic your corners he tha and for this reason we usually avoid corners c t h elderly patients in mega tron because his heart is made of steel get a guy is he's i think you explaining that when we also tend to avoid a corner cpa's in extremely obese patients so be a nice career then forty that could actually alter the images simply because of the of the tissue density alone the last and probably the biggest berta corners cpa's days is probably the patients insurance company in prior authorization i know you guys take care of some high risk populations they can be under insured or even the uninsured and that's who we typically take care of her via's well and i'm sure a lot of our listeners can relate to that and so and these patients she may have deface the pressure in reality they corners she was never an option in the first place right i mean hopefully as that already robust data corners cj continues to grow that will become less of an issue but like bachelors and bachelorettes yet to find love i dream i hope corny cds have a better chance of making it then abashed but i think i think there's one last possible limitation that we should touch on that are patients probably think is important and are gonna ask you about it which is how big is the risk of radiation corner cpa's this is a good win the miss bust a yes win first introduced corner e c t did kerry higher radiation risk but most games are now in the order of two to three miller seabirds of radiation to put perspective nuclear skins were typically only order of ten to twelve middle shivers all right guys let's let's put this all together so what i'm hearing is we proudly to steer clear of coronary cpa's in patients with prior stance 'cause that's gonna give us artifacts that we don't want patients with arrhythmias me is a that's gonna prevent us from getting those good quality images and i asked elite elderly patients say patients and seventy five that already have a lot of calcium built up or obese patients where the tissue density alters image another group of patients they keep in mind or people who can't tolerate that splash as evans says are generous portion of beta blockade end on like bachelor in paradise none of us living in a bubble and we do have to remember that there is an unfortunate battle sometimes with insurance companies that might stand in the way of course cpa's at least for the time being all right guys i feeling of a better grasp on what coronary cpa's are in the pros and cons but i feel like interpretation of coronary cd results is new territory me what do i do with all that information i get from these tests and more importantly how am i gonna talk to my patients about it so just like anything else in medicine there's not a straightforward answer it's not gonna be if this corners cici result then i do this everything to be considered on a case by case basis all right but coronary cpa's in temecula tests to be should be relatively straightforward communicate right i mean coronary disease is either there or it's not well yes and no let's just start by telling me extremes but we might find on the corners who tj with the help of dodger douglas so first there the patients who skins look great in the city on here gram shows no blockages at all and says no plaque i think it can be very reassuring to the patient that they do not have any blockages coronary arteries and they are incredibly unlikely to have a heart attack a are due to black arose in are black rupture because i don't have any black there is a ninety seven ten ninety nine percent negative give predictive value for coronary cici eight so if a patient has chest pain but clean arteries on a coronary c t h you could assure them that their symptoms are probably not coming from their heart we can't say the same thing though about functional stress testing stress test you know this isn't a proclamation but they're roughly eighty percent sensitive an eighty percent specific which means that one that one in five patients will have a positive or negative diagnosis dolly right in scored five will be accurate to me the ability to reassure patience at least cardiac wise but they have no blockages on their cici eight is the biggest the dan is clinically some studies even suggest that are normal corners cici aken confer up seven year warranty when it comes to mortality you know there are definitely a high risk a group in which a small people have no plaque her example in promise eighteen percent of diabetics had no plaque i would still treat them secondary prevention as as the guidelines say as their diabetics but it doesn't mean you know they can go out and smoke now or whatever in bacon three times a day but i think it's very reassuring economy at here is that sensitivity four corners cj for things like spontaneous corner origin section or minova myocardial infarction an absence of this directive coronary artery disease is still unclear sell this and you're tossing area steady definitely important obvious the point out all right let's move from patients with low risk coronary c t results to patients on the other end of the spectrum those with high risk results here were talking about patients with greater than seventy percent blockages in their major vessels others in the left maine and a greater than fifty percent blockage in the left main artery itself again not a straightforward answer but sometimes cats and pc i ended up being the best choice toys joshua dau stories about how she discusses his intervention with her patients say well you're you're campaigner you're observational symptoms seem to be doing a blockage which is limiting blood blood in the heart muscle we wanna open that up i always tell them that that the palliative data procedure it does not cure the disease it's that we were not getting rid of the plaque were just pushing it out of the way or whereby passing it and then it's on them to work with us in cardiac rehab and in their lifestyle lifestyle adjustments and without medication over the rest of their life could keep this from becoming a problem pronounce let's pause for a second there because i just love the way doctor douglas frances reid bastardisation isn't accurate if procedure it's a pallet of one i think that's pour in for a lot of us remember that even after obstructive diseases intervened at times there's still a lot of work left to do moving on in between those patients with no blockages and those were significant plaque are those patients caught in the middle now again were talking about patients with intermediate blockages less than seventy percent in the major vessels others in the left lane and left main less than fifty percent in these folks there's no algorithm and it's always a case by case basis doctor douglas speaks broad strokes about how she approaches patients with intermediate boss just in general for those people i wouldn't be aggressive secondary prevention they've demonstrated that they do have atherosclerosis even said not at the level of clinical coronary artery disease greg also gives us his take on new in the new ones information at a corner and she can give even if it's not obstructed it might change the way that i manage their risk factors that might give me a lower ldl goal it might make me more you're a tad on that in my or off the dough some stat and it might make me push them harder on prevention and they're just like so many subtle things that happened in the interaction with the asian if you showed a picture of a steep yang you say look at all of your heart that is at risk if this plaque were a ruptured his aboard a pop annual shocked all the slow i think it's very hard to capture in trials the subtlety is on the one on one interaction and also the way that you're framing it yourself dictates how you talk about how you talk about the disease of the asian it changes the tone that you used it changes the level of concern that you are a you're expressing an i think that subconsciously just leading knowing what someone who's diseases burden is like gives you a different sense of how you should be approaching that wow that is awesome thought the end what let's wrap up this pearl by focusing on interpretation of corners cts if if you're a patient has a clean corner e c t eight minutes keep up the good work and gives them the reassurance up to a seven year warranty if they have coronary artery disease and management is some mix of secondary prevention vs intervention as doctor douglas end greg pointed out really nice leaves that comical has been can be a powerful motivator for behavior change that affects the patient physician interaction in meaningful end measurable ways and now firm are purity doctor i should've dd cardiology and why you gives us a recap the pearls and adds her own insights role one anatomical vs functional testing now think about anatomical testing like looking at if there's plaque and how severe it is on the other hand functional testing tells you how he moved in amicably significant the pocket now if a patient as having symptoms and you know there's obstructive plaque you wanna know if those symptoms are related to that obstructive plaque and that's really what functional testing tells you it's tells you about sort of the human dynamics significance of a plaque so think about each telling you kinda like half the story and when you put them together it is the complete book essentially so who gets a calcium score just remember it has to be an aide symptomatic patient anyone would symptoms you can't just rely on a calcium score so first of all is symptomatic patients who are loaded intermediate risk who you're really like does this piece you need to be honest that does not wanna be on staten if the patient's fighting you a lot to be on staten you can get a calcium score convince them that they have a plaque and then maybe that'll convinced the more to take the staten and prevent their progression thing about calcium score is is it's really in providing individualized care because when we look at calcium scores were not only looking at the absolute number there's actually a mesa calculator that you can use to provide side the percentile that the patient falls into really taking their demographics into account an if they're above the seventy fifth percentile than they typically need a stat and the other great thing about calcium score is that that it comes with the quote unquote warranty period now if you have zero calcium score their papers that have shown that you're cardiovascular mortality similar to that of normal population an the warranty period is quoted to be about fifteen years which is a big deal to tell the patient hey you're fine you're gonna you know your cardiovascular risk is just like anybody else's so that way it's very reassuring for patients who may be anxious see only thing to keep in mind is you know wendy you repeat a couch in scorn so if you have a positive calcium score you never repeated because if you have a positive calcium score you're what are you gonna do you're gonna put the patient on staten right and what is staten doodo plaque they solidify them they make them hard and calcified unstable think about soft vulnerable plaque like a soft boiled egg and then a hard stable plaque like a hardboiled egg so the whole point of putting a patient on staten is converting that soft boiled egg into a hardboiled egg so typically they're calcium score goes up when you put them on staten so if a patient as a positive calcium score don't bother repeating it now if they have a negative zero calcium score like we talked about power of zero you can consider repeating it every five years you know as patients age their risk factors changing their risk changes with age as well so you can consider repeating it every five years pearl three the take away it really is that you know corner you see ti think of it as an angiogram where you're not sitting inside the lumine but you're sitting outside the heart and you're looking at the plaque you're looking at the anatomy of the corner you arteries and you know pictures really worth a thousand words if you show up patient a plaque in their coronary arteries trust me they're gonna be a lot more motivated to change their lifestyle stop smoking and take those staten we keep pestering them about it also you know in young patients who are usually the ones that are more illegible for these corners cpa's you can also look at well do they have in anomalous coronary do they have a card is there aorta okay do they have a you know a cork tation you know all these things can also caused chest pain so you're not only looking at the corners but you can also look at the cardiac structure now taking it a step further you know we can we also do stress testing people with known coronary disease and corners cpa's are actually good at looking the cabbage in patients with cabbage who aircraft looking at these anatomy and looking at the pete and see if the graft pro for so now we've harped on about corners cpa's and how good they are but they're not like an ideal past there has to be the right test for the right patient like anything in medicine so who are the people that are not ideal for these tests so anyone who's had stance in the past usually you know like with any hardware in your body it creates a lot of artifact be only caviar to that is a is a left lane stan because they're usually pretty big in any symptomatic patients 'cause left mean is kind of a big deal we can consider you know imaging that any symptomatic patient other thing is if you're be amies very high the image quality again even in your echoes you know the the image quality is limited so it's not an ideal test in any patient who you think the calcium score is gonna be way too high that you know it can cause again limited diagnostic accuracy like a stage renal disease patients it's or extremely a you know elderly patients like in their eighties or nineties you're usually not likely to get very good images and then they other caviar is also in irregular heartbeat it can be a little more challenging to imagine these patients it's not contra indication but will just leave it at that at this point profile so now you have this amazing test called corners cpa's and you got the results so what do you do it so there's three main categories one is it's it's completely clean there's no plaque you know you're doing a great job just keep doing whatever you're doing and reassure the patient again the warranty period is very helpful see other end of the spectrum is you know there's obstructive lesion anticipation is symptomatic and then at that point it's really a no brainer that they need to go to the cath lab get it for their evaluated in me sibley and if they need a pc by then do that as well now when you have sort of this intermediate moderate lesion sometimes sometimes you know you can also get reports that they cannot exclude obstructive lesion because of maybe calcium or whatever at that point it's really talking to your patients what you wanna see is well are their symptoms related to this obstructed plaque so one you can consider doing stress test you know you can put them on a treadmill and see if those same symptoms are reproduced when they exercise if the patient would rather know if it's up in obstructive plaque or not you know if you wanna feel you're anxious patient you can consider a corner angiogram and if it's up haitian where less is more you can consider starting them on staten aspirin beta blocker antiaging all therapies 'em an seeing if their symptoms improver prove are not anti you know it's a sort of a multiple options that you can take and that's where share decision making comes in really excellent thank you all for listening remembered claim you're see any credit on the atp website it's easy did you just log onto www dot e c p online dot org go to skinny dash ammo see and understand me click on podcast again if you are in training sudden this episode to attending or someone else you think could benefit from this means of continuing tinian medical education and as always if you enjoyed listening to our show give us a review and i tunes or wherever podcast app you used it does help people find does follow us on twitter instagram facebook we work really hard on his podcast so we'd love to hear
HARD FACTOR 2/27: Michael Cohen Disbarred, A Pennsylvania Murder, Retirement Community Has a Very Sexy Problem
"Wooded you Joe, man. Randy savage this factor in the risk. No one that does better. Now, does it better repeat myself? Go ahead told me something right now. Moderate. Welcome to another episode of heart back there. It is Wednesday February twenty seventh our top stories today. Mark is going to do one about the state of emergency or lack thereof. According to the house of representatives. Oh, west gonna do on about a wild family murder in Pennsylvania. Yeah. This is a wad one pretty grizzly too. So Now, Dan by deed. I'm gonna do one about retirees in Florida and how much they love their golf carts. Maybe a little too much. Well, what do you mean will I guess you'll have to listen to find out and paddle take a lightning round of other headlines, take it away. Mark remember when you got your first credit card. It's a magical time at once life dinners are on you you want some new Nikes. That's no problem. I mean, maybe you're online gambling count is empty because of bad d three basketball bet no worries just make it a posit on your card fast forward. Seven years nine credit. Cards later, and you're in crippling debt and confused. Why no one explained to you how interest rates work and now your place in your life where you need alone and banks are judging you based on your bad credit and history without knowing the whole you. But now, thanks to upstart dot com. It never has to be that way. Again, up start is revolutionizing the way you borrow money by rewarding you for your job experience and education in the form of a smarter interest rate, these guys made it so I could get that loan for a ten thousand gallon saltwater aquarium, I would have had to otherwise do without unlike traditional credit underwriting, which could be biased against people with short credit history of start goes beyond the traditional FICO score when assessing your credit worthiness. And the best part is once your loan is approved the funds will be transferred to you the very next business day. That's the next day. Look up upstart is ranked number one in their category with over three hundred businesses on trust pilot and hurry to upstart dot com slash hard to find out how low your upstart rate is checking rate. It only takes two minutes and will not affect your credit. That's upstart dot com slash hard. Right. So the house of representatives are not buying that we are being invaded. Or at least the majority of them aren't as they voted two hundred and forty five to one hundred eighty two to overturn Trump's national emergency declaration, thirteen Republicans all the Democrats voted for the overturning the resolution has authored by Joaquin Castro. A democratic Representative from Texas, and it was one page long. So not a lot of effort went into that. I think the used the format that's been around society seventy six, but basically was like, no Trump and then voted on it. Right. It was one sentence. We are not being invaded right? Next up the Republican runs Senate will vote at it's looking like, it's possible. They might pass the blocking of the national -mergency funds as well as three Republicans have publicly stated already they would overturn. And they need a total four if you clued all the Democrats voting for they would need four Republicans vote for and then Mitch McConnell said I personally couldn't handicap the outcome at this point which is shocking coming from. It's McConnell who can pretty much do whatever he wants. Yeah. He's like literally like, a magical Senate anything Mitch McConnell, and Roger stone in a room and anyone opposing them as fuck. Anyways, he said that Republicans would even like uncertain still about the legality of Trump's move telling reporters were in the process of weighing that as well. Which means we don't know what's going on. But he did say that we there's definitely an emergency at the border, and that we're at war with the border and all that stuff like with them on that. None of this really matter. So as President Trump will have the opportunity to veto the blocking of his national -mergency declaration, if they overturn it that they being congress, and guess what he said he would do that. He's obviously going to do that he wouldn't declare national emergency. And it'd be like, you're right congress. It's not he's going to be to it. He said he would it would be as I meet. So they're just reminding him of all the great powers that he has. And he just wants to use them person time to eat. So he's gonna angsty teenager just kind of testing the boundaries with the national emergency though. Maybe but if he does veto it what you will write it goes back to congress one more time. Like what's vote? Again, this time is prediction will come because he says he's going to take it all the way to. Supreme court. So yeah. But if he does it instead, if does it'll go back to congress where they have to pass it at a two-thirds clip as opposed to just pass it the first time around, and they don't have the votes to do that to forty five to one eighty two thirds and the Senate is going to be closer to fifty percents the time. Yeah. So waste time. But it is a huge embarrassment for Trump, especially this week where he staying across the table from guy with one hundred percent approval rating thousand percents thousand percent, they got him a high chair like a booster seat. I'm sure I'm sure he's towering over Trump and all the chairs. Yeah. You talking about Kim Jong grew. Yeah. Yes. I am talking about Kim Jong Il the guy that probably gets a rub and tugs on Nash on his own national TV show while his journal was bodyguard, just cutting out journalist tongues and cutting their hands off. So they can't type he's probably getting live. Rub. It rub and tug. But no one in the country's allowed to turn that channel on test broadcast do not want right. But it's it says seven billion viewers. Yes. Yes. No one's washing it. So yeah. I mean, Trump has a certain that the barriers would stop drugs. There's being the wall would stop drugs from Mexico from entering the US. In fact, government figures show differently though that ninety percent of drugs. Intercepted from Mexico are caught at ports of entry not remote areas where the barriers would be constructed. And I'm pretty sure the heart factor crew in Austin could prove that stat to be mostly true by continuing to easily by any types of drugs. We want no matter how many walls are built over the next few years. Yeah. There's going to be. A little more expensive not gonna eat as well. But we're gonna get him. You put queue behind a wall. He's getting over that wall. And he's going to sell me drugs. Are you gonna put all of the drug dealers around the wall, you can put my brain behind the wall away get drugs so easy? You want drugs problem? Know that read nooses, the Democrats are double faces, double standards and double shit hits. I love the new to start using that Elizabeth did she end that with? That's a fast fact. Oh, man, powerful. Can Elizabeth Mestas says we the people want the emergency. We need to get rid of this congress and Aaron rally goes you want the emergency. Joking. All right moving on. What do you guys normally do when you don't like a particular family member? Maybe like a void family reunions, make fun of him behind their back with other family members. I I don't have an answer for that. Which makes me think maybe I'm the family member. That's not liked probably shit. Well, a mother and daughter in Pennsylvania didn't think that was enough. So they decided to to kill them. Oh, five of them. Kill them kill them. Yeah. Just couldn't stand him and clothing three kids, and the crazy shit is they're claiming they did this because they all wanted to die. And we're talking about suicide. So they just went ahead did him a solid and took care of their indecision for them. And and the the last thing the victims were the mother's own children sister and nieces so Jesus Christ close family members. So and the sis- sister sister, aunts and cousins. Yeah, it's confusing. Let me just go so shayna decree. The forty five year old patriarch psycho killer and her daughter Dominique who's nineteen killed Shanas children night era, whose twenty five Damon who was thirteen and the mother sister Jamila along with Jamila two nine year old twin daughters. Oh, the matriarch psycho killer. It is I patriarch h h. You should see the dick on this lady. Jeez, sexist was all right. Sorry matrix, the seventeen year old son of Jamila did manage to escape and was found unharmed. So he will likely be able to shed some light on the subject, but is not a suspect in the crimes normal life. He's gonna be fine. He's gonna be fine ran away from the murder. They kill him with a gun. We know I think it was a lot of strangulation like lot of blunt. I mean, come on things to the head. The I don't think he was able to run away from the strangulation don't strangle me, I'm running got greens in his prime to bring a gun. They're also claiming that Jamila participated in the killings before she was killed by Dominic. Dominique like get away with not getting killed by the mother and the answer is sur favorite turned on her younger sister because someone was getting turned on right? Yeah. Well, no Jamila was the system was the sister Jamila sisters Jana is jamilla sister. Oh, yeah. We're gonna get a charge on. You make a chart. Yeah. I can make a chart that'd be great like game of thrones. All these family members. Authorities found the bodies face up at the foot of a bed in the apartment in Morrisville Pennsylvania, just north affiliate and the two murders in bed disoriented or acting disoriented know what happened. There's also some speculation that the mother daughter team could have been part of a suicide pact that they just a coward. It out of the true motive is now. Now, I know what I mean, the only thing I knew about the story before you start talking was the picture and shayna she's actually she looks exactly like the predator. So it doesn't surprise me that she was hunting down huge. In a way, it's a tough look to carry through childhood to look like the predator. You've got a lot of pain after thirty eight years of remembering being called the predators. Yeah. So I'm sure there's a mental health. Maybe some drug. Oh you in here. Yeah. Just taking a leap of a guests there. So originally they claim that Jamila is boyfriend into other men had carried out the murders. But later confessed to the killing. So they're they're already singing in. It's only a matter of time before the true story comes out, and it's likely in the show that of course. Yeah. There's some some mental health is going to be a scream confession. Just going to be a screen is gonna ram it. I love that they acted disoriented with orders arrived rewatching the sopranos right now. And like Tony's mom after they junior and her put the hit on Tony. She's like she starts amnesia. It's an undeniable defense, you gotta do it. So they've been charged with five counts of murder one count of conspiracy. The both in jail supposedly were they'll stay going to the internet. Jason Melendez says bullshit when they said the family talked about suicide. He's onto. Yeah. Yeah. He's he doesn't that. Melendez. He'll be following this closely doesn't want them getting the only daily questions, and Sean Martin senior says that's why I keep my gun on me at all times. Because people are crazy these days. Mom, I got my gun on me. Mom. He's also in front of his eighteen Wheeler drive with his gun. Yeah. Yeah. So good pick. All right. That was fun west. Thank you. Yeah. Super superfund. All right. Let's talk about moving along to the villages, which is retirement community in Florida. Sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a town sized retirement community, sixty two miles from Orlando. That's known as the DisneyWorld for old people. It's home to a hundred and ten thousand people. Oil with basically, nobody under the age of fifty five, and it has thirty three different nine hole golf courses. All over the town and a shitload of custom golf carts at the residence used to get around almost no cars. So if you're like, a young guy, that's really into fucking old people. You just can't live there. You have to be fifty five. You gotta visitor pass. Got to live next door. You could you could get asking for a friend able bodied legs to walk over to the villages. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. In case you're into that. Yeah. Go for it like saying since the entire town is a retirement community. Everyone drives golf carts. So fifty five thousand golf carts and all by far the most of any city in the Christ. That's amazing out. That's a ton to shitload of golf carts. It's one for every two people live there. There's even a golf cart only gas station and hundred miles of golf cart paths around town that's separate from the main roads sounds like paradise. Really does sound like awesome. Yeah. I majored be golf cart salesman. Just move there. That seems like easy. You just you just spend your day cruise around Florida sun, drinking, maybe swing a few club. No, you'd mod golf cart. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Soup it up. Yeah. There's definitely a contest of who has the nicest Gulf corp-, totally. Yeah. It's a. They like soup. They make them look like model, TS and stuff. And it's awesome. It's super fun. That is until the old people in the Gulf cart. Start fucking each other in public on. Yeah. No, that's happened. Apparently every night you can roam the streets of the village. Sorry. The villages to find random old people fucking inside their open-air golf carts. And that's just how it is. Pretty fun will. You are you sure about that? I I mean, I guess. You're hilarious. Place sound spells horrible. Yeah. It sucks. I if you're old you've earned it. But at the same time like it's fucking gross, man. It's just like a bunch of like blue birds. Fuck it in their golf carts to make sense. Because the only thing that stops you from having unprotected sex with everyone around you might wanna fuck it's it's two things it's pregnancy. And these ladies are through menopause, and it's the fear of HIV, which by the time, you get it. If your your your later years, you're not gonna die from it. How many people are dying on his carts? There's got to be a lot of people getting pride off golf. Now. I mean, I've heard that the rates are just rampant. And who cares? Right. I mean, they don't care. They're like, oh, whatever is it's it's a way to grow. You know, funny enough the village the villages is a regular stop on pretty much every campaign tour because not only do these old people like to get hammered play golf and fucking public. But they also love to fuckers vote man that's fishing barrel. You got a ninety nine percent or ten ninety nine percent turnout rate. And the one percent is the people that died in between polls open and close on their golf cart. Fucking that morning, right. Taking it to the internet that were no comments because the internet was grossed out. So I went to villages news dot com to get the real scoop on what's going down in the city and Peter Chatterton. He's a resident there has this to say it is a sign that we in the villages are growing older in our retired. That we spend our time taking pictures of quote, bad parking. Or quote by our own radar guns to enforce speed limits in the villages, come on people when we all moved here we bought into a lifestyle, which I do not remember included a club or class of complaining about everything. So maybe it's not so free after all Cording to Peter Peter's like you know, what I'm fucking right now outer ten is offender. He's definite subtext of that comet which you might not have picked up on it. Don't you look at me or judge me when I'm fucking in my open air. I think you're right. I think he uses his angle to shame older women having sex you prude. Best cues? I bet you get both legs up on this car. Hey. Take into a lightning round of other headlines didn't have time to get an in depth. So Donald Trump's former personal attorney and fixer Michael Cohen was officially disbarred yesterday. By the New York state supreme court this coming as a result of cone pleading guilty to ton of charges, including campaign finance violations cone is just one of many in a group of indistinguishable later middle aged white men with legal degrees who've served our president and are now going to jail undoubtedly more disbarments to come. What happens to the Hanjour certificates stricken from the from the role of attorneys, take down your picture of the will also how hard is it to get fucking disbarred is Michael Cohen's? Just now getting he's got he's facing a three year jail. Really good news for most lawyer should have all you young lawyers out there. Don't worry. All right. Look when the FBI showed up at Don. Miller's home in rural Indiana in twenty fourteen to seize part of his vast personal collection of artifacts. It was a shock for people who knew him SP. Typically because people couldn't believe there was art of any kind in rural Indiana. They thought that gotten at all, no, I'm kidding. Apparently Miller who is dead now had obtained a lot of the items in his home illegally through digging expeditions in foreign countries amongst among collections were two thousand human bones. Oh, yeah. That represent about five hundred human beings meant graves. Yeah. Miller had robbed these bones from native American burial sites. And this news was met with a sigh of relief from Miller's neighbors who finally had an explanation for why a poltergeist has been terrorizing them for decades. Hobby. I just thought he was a priest. Right. A game warden was looking for illegal fishing Kirby lake in Abilene, Texas when he stumbled upon something unexpected he spotted a van from the Abilene state supported living center of zilla that looks after developmentally disabled people when he approached the van he noticed that it shocks were under extreme duress. That's because inside the van were to employees from the center who were engaged in full on hot sweaty intercourse, which isn't that weird? Except for also inside the van were four. Intellectually disabled residents who were forced to watch. Oh, no. I'm sure it was a sight to see as both employs look like they could double for the heart factor crew. Week one of our weight loss competition or the or the four adults like all drinking slurpy and watching we don't know. But I'm guessing these people who are boning are combined weight of six hundred pounds looked like the natural disasters the famous tag team from the eighties. Typhoon earthquake. Exactly. And that's going to do it for heart factor. Guys. Look yesterday was a huge day for five star reviews in the I tunes review section for those of you who aren't regular listeners. We've got a bunch of heat from barstool age cue to get together of us up on I tunes. So we're making a deal with you guys the best listeners in the world. If we get one hundred five star reviews on items this week. We'll be doing a bonus Friday episode episode. You guys crushed it last week. And as the time of this taping we're fifty seven reviews in so if you wanna make us work and extra day this week will gladly do it, but we're going to need at least forty three more five star reviews by Thursday five PM coming close. Yeah. So take your mom's phone. She never uses it. Anyway, tell her that you're texting God. She'll be confused but calmed follow us at heart factor. News. Don't take. Shift from your boss and a great fucking day. Who do it? Play the gains.
Building Your Self-Publishing Business | Doubling Down & Scaling Up
"Are you having issues in really getting any kind of traction and yourself publishing business. Would you like to know the key to break those dreaded plateaus then I'm gonNA discuss a little a bit more about building yourself publishing business and doubling down while scaling up stay tuned learn how to publish profitable books and build an unstoppable author brand with any author and self publishing coach Del L. Roberts. This is so publishing Dale podcast today. We're going to talk a little bit about something that needs to be addressed because they see as a common problem across the board before we dive deep into that WanNa let you know that today's episode has been brought to you in part by the D._I._y.. Publishing course unlimited get your hands in the most comprehensive coverage of self publishing to date with over three hundred and fifty five videos that's right. I didn't say that wrong over three hundred fifty five videos and resources you have a vast library of self publishing resources to keep you on track and headed in the right direction visit d._I._Y.. Publishing Dot Biz slash podcast and use the coupon code podcast for ten percent off lifetime access to the D._I._y.. Publishing course again as D._I._Y.. Publishing Dot Biz slash podcast use that code podcast is to get ten percent off lifetime access to the D._I._y.. Publishing course so I've been at this business. Gosh it's crazy to think over five years now and I've been obsessed ever since and especially the more that I've had success. I it become even more obsessed about it because I'm like okay if I can do it good. Why can't I just go ahead and do it good her <hes> so yeah? I said good her because I'm going to make all of you word nerds out there just flip so that's okay just relax because if you listen closely enough you should probably be paying attention that there's like a little trickling in the background. It's my dishwasher running. We're GONNA lead that going because I'm a human being. Put my pants on one leg time and we'd do dishes whenever the Hell we want Oh man we're going adult here today. So the problem starts to lie in building yourself publishing business and I see a lot of people that are concerned that they're not getting the sales they want. Maybe they're not making any sales at all or the sales that they're making a scant Dan. Let's say that you're not even breaking four figures per month. That's right one thousand dollars per month across the board. I see a lot of people that are having issues and doing that. I don't WanNa make it seem like it's easy to break a thousand dollars dollars per month. It can be tough but if you get a good system in place you can do that now for those that are making a thousand dollars or more per month. This is going to apply to you as well because those dreaded plateaus. We're GONNA come along and they're going to haunt you. There's nothing worse than just getting the same results over and again and I'm not gonNA use the tired Einstein quote today for insanity just Google up. We know Oh that yeah. It's great to make a thousand dollars per month of three thousand dollars per month or maybe if you just looking for a couple hundred dollars per month but wouldn't you just like to do just a bit more what today's going to be kind of that mindset mindset shift if you will and it's also gonna be just that perception that you're going to be seeing and it's when you don't see the force for the trees. This is where we're going to really break down so the problem mom the lack of sales or results so the issue the real issues this and I'm going to name a few issues. I see it's direction a lot of people bail to take the direction. You can't be going into fifty places places all at one time it's true can honestly and you're going to get lost in due time. If you keep trying to go to various locations at the same time pick a direction you can't just spray ray in pray and hope for the Best I did for my first couple years folks and let me tell you Rama noodles and frozen vegetables suck after a while they really do why was that because I was too busy spraying in praying for the best I was publishing and I'm praying and hoping well so and so set on their youtube channel that this is a great trend to get on or so and so set in a group that this is fantastic. Will You keep bending to the whim of everybody's suggestions. Suggestions you're going to get nowhere really fast. Get good on the direction of Your Business and folks. There's going to be some little tidbits. I'm going to share with you. This applies not only just self publishing but in life in general you have to pick a direction and go for it. That's why you hear me say set goals goal setting works folks. It's like having a roadmap in the destination that does the nation is your goal. The roadmaps going to me the steps that Gig you there so direction so important get good get in that one direction issue number two analysis paralysis. I had a good conversation with somebody in a coaching consult earlier earlier this week big shout out she <hes> she brought up a word phrase that I've heard a longtime back analysis paralysis when he had just oh well let me learn a little bit more about this or Lemme. Go ahead and learn a little bit more about bat and then I'll do something and let me learn about this and Oh hang a second. There's this course better by this one because I'm going to watch this one. Oh wait hang on Dale recommended that I take a look at this and I better watch this. I folks this is something that I learned real quick. You learn by taking action. Be Bold. Be Relentless be willing to have little mustard on your face and make a mistake from time to time 'cause we're all human beings in its O. K. to make a mistake. It's okay to have a setback. It's okay to fail at things from time to time. Be All right with it. It's not all right if you just settle for that. If you just say well that didn't work. I guess I'll move onto something because when you start to do something like that when you start to go well that didn't work and you just switched directions. You're going back to the original issue. I just told you about directions spraying and praying and hoping for the best that's just not going to get you very far so if you make mistakes have failures you have something that doesn't quite working expected different results coach need to an analyze it. You need to bigger out okay so this has been successful for other people. What are the successful people doing and how can I model that system and my own business practices and then from there you just implement at that so you noticed I said we can do all the information gathering we want? That's fine but the most important thing is actually doing getting your hands dirty and getting it to where you understand how you can better do that and this is something I've always doing this podcast mattel. You probably go back to episode number one. It sounds like garbage episode number fifteen now. It sounds a little bit more polished and I'm sure about another year from now. It's GonNa Sound State of the art because I'm going to get to where I understand the system so analysis paralysis will stop you from really getting anywhere. Evan Carmichael puts it a good way. Big Name name on Youtube has nearly two million subscribers does a lot of self-help type stuff hashtag believe nation. Just look that up anywhere. He says it should be one percent ten ninety nine percent one percent planning two ninety nine percent action. You GotTa get that in your head ninety nine percent action. Oh my gosh only one percent. Are you kidding me Yep. It's ready shoot aim they go. Let's go ahead do you it. Let's let's go ahead figure this out not last at least two when it comes to announce his prowess I understand this. You're listening to a podcast that literally just fired off those brought to you apart by the D._I._Y.. Publishing course and the thing is is you're gonNA hear a lot of people within the space and the people that have been successful that are selling course or a service or coaching of some sort and they're going to be telling you about all these success stories and folks. I would love it if you join me over the D._I._Y.. Publishing of course but at the end of the day you don't have to do that I would certainly love it and it certainly would increase the likelihood of your success but is it going to make or break your success not by any means. I've seen some people just crush it. They didn't need a single course <hes> you know I use courses and I've used coaching and they've worked really really well for me so just bear that in mind don't always buy into the hype and you'll know when there's some. I'm hype masters out there. Those those ones will tell you that you will make a thousand dollars in the first thirty days of doing their stuff. You GotTa start question though that person that can promise you that you're GonNa make certain amount of income and before long F._t._C.'s going to be breaking down that person's door because those are rather bold claims and they don't take too kindly to the making money online thing and promising. They're gonNA make a thousand dollars per month and then they got the ones that will share their paychecks in their revenue and I'm the crushing mom doing this. Listen folks. There's so much more than meets the I. I just don't buy into the hype that's just the way I look at it and that's GonNa also be something that's going to keep you tied up because you're going to be thinking why gotta by this course in order for me to succeed Nah that's B._S.. Man Stopped Selling Yourself B._S.. You Anna Toilets. They don't take that Kinda crap or right. Next issue folks chasing trends. Oh there will always be trends and it's like lightning in a bottle folks. You Ain't going to be able to catch it but once in a lifetime if at all it's like trying to win the lottery trying to hit that trend and become that big offer in that big success story. I see some people trying to put themselves onto that proverbial treadmill that hamster wheel if you will and they're always looking at the next hot thing and they're always going okay well. I'M GONNA go right now. Do Kito Cato Cato Cato Cato Cato Cato coquito Kito what happens when Kito goes away because it will. I promise you will because before that it was Paleo before that it was Atkins and before that it was always something that people want to be doing and there's always going to be these big trends runs you know so would say that instead of chasing trends start to big route something that resonates with you so it makes it more of a pleasure for you to pursue and that way for some reason you don't become successful in that particular avenue you. It's not a complete loss because you enjoyed the process conversely speaking. Let's say that you do end up chasing the trend you crush it in another year. It just bottoms out. You're stuck with this brand. You're stuck because being that Kito master like Oh there comes as Guy Kito. Doesn't he know that sued two thousand eighteen. Please so you know I'm not trying to knock any of you guys out there. That likes cute. Oh by the way I'm just using it as an example it is a trend. I'm just saying it is so watch out for chasing the Trans folks you really want to get yourself established onto a brand of some sort that can be good for the long term health of Your Business and overall so <hes> next issue and in the last issue because I'm sure we can talk about these till the cows come home and his expectations. There's a difference folks between your perception and reality. There's a huge difference perception versus Mrs Reality You might have these expectations that all I seen so in so make ten thousand dollars within their first ninety days folks. Those cases are like the unicorns of this world old those people awesome okay. That's great good for you but the vast majority of you. I hate to say this are not going to do that now. If you happen to be the exception to the rule big banana sticker to you you but if you are like what I was for the first two years struggling to get it all together and you're not alone. There's a good one percent of people that are crushing it right out the gate. There's another ninety nine percent that don't there was an interesting thread that was put inside the facebook group here recently on self publishing books. Please feel free to join us there by the way and one of the gentlemen and they're said Wool my first three months in the business. I was making three thousand dollars well. That's good for you. Do you want a metal or chess depending on which my mother used to say to me whenever we had something to Brag about you know and he believed that more people were doing this like okay. I just WanNa let you know you've only been in this business for a cup of coffee and I just want to kind of temper. Your perceptions versus the reality of things. The reality is most people aren't doing that and for you to downplay the fact that there is a grind factor that did you have to have grit to get to that point. In most instances really demeans everybody's journey so think about this when you're building yourself publishing business perception versus reality and sometimes having a good group of masterminds it's going. Help you understand that Seoul much better reach out to other people in your author network and your publisher network and have it to where you're having a good communication which with each one of them and say what you're expecting and then build from there so what's the solution in talking about all the issues why haven't offered any kind of solutions Gig good on your direction. That's the very first one super simple. Get good on your direction stick with it for for one year. I know it seems scary. It seems unnerve ing but over last year in two thousand eighteen one of the things that I got good on was my direction for video. Oh in within that year on Youtube alone I had over seventy five hundred new subscribers which is pretty incredible considering how Nisha the topic is of self publishing was very happy with that that was way more than I did my first two years alone 'cause I got good on that direction. I said this is what I'm doing. This is how I'm going to focus on it. Kelly did the same thing in her business. She focused on her no content low content books and she really that was her thing. She was just going to do that day. In Day out one year straight as she saw huge results so I implore you get good on that direction and of course this segues perfectly over in to pick one thing pick one thing. I know it seems unnerving especially. If you're indecisive you're going to be like but I liked where bear shape shifter romance but I'd like to write cookbooks books but I like to put out journals. Listen folks pick one thing and go for be competent in the direction that you're going but also understand this that just because you picked one thing doesn't mean it's going to be a success. You're going to need to as I've shared before you're you're going to have to analyze your results. That's a perfect segue into what I like to call doubling down. I say this a lot to my coaching students and I say this lot to my viewers. If you find a proven proven concept that means you have proven yourself then double down double down that means you're going to do it again and you're going to do it again and you're going to do it again and you're gonNA keep stacking and build in an entire catalogue of assets that are going to form incredibly and you might be thinking how it's proven concept. Does it cell. Has It sold one copy. There's a proven concept. Has It sold one copy a day. That's even better proven concept. Has It sold twelve copies in a day. Has It so thirty copies you will know when you go log in to yourself publishing pushing dashboard on what is a proven concept because what someone bought it someone bought. It won't be you so your mom doesn't count either side. Tell you this double down on those proven concepts because you start to build old in eventually. It's GonNa hit that critical mass and you're going to be the unstoppable force in your niche and that's why I say pick that one direction GIG good with it in double down on it so enclosing enclosing folks building yourself publishing business. It's not rocket. Science just takes a little bit of time. It takes a little bit of Grit. Take some determination and you've got to be relentless and remember to double down and scale up. Today's episode was brought to you in part by the D._I._Y.. Publishing Unlimited speaking of all these things I've just addressed I talk a little bit more about the INS and outs of self publishing in that we Kinda talk about doubling down and scaling up in the D._I._Y.. Publishing course only so if you WANNA get access to that visit D._I._Y.. Publishing Dot Biz slash podcast and used a coupon code podcast for ten percent off lifetime access to the D._I._y.. Publishing Course in the meantime subscribe to sell publishing with Dale on Apple podcasts and do me a little favor leaving honest review there be so awesome I've seen there's a few reviews there so far I love it loved the love. It's definitely coming right back at you in the meantime in a between Tom I will catch you next week. self-published with Dell you've been listening to the cell publishing Dale podcast cast visit us at so publishing with Dell Dot Com for more information on how you can level up your publishing business also get a rock solid action plan for your next book launch when you sign up for email newsletter at self publishing bill.
"Hey, everyone! It's me Max Baril. And before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to take a quick moment to tell you about some cool new perks. Offering over on Patriae on Patriae is of course where listeners like you can support classic movie musts starting this month I'm now hosting monthly digital, meet and greet hangouts for members of our patriotic community. This is a great way for you to meet me and other passionate classic movie fans and discuss our mutual love of classic movies also I'm now. Offering classic movie must merchandise over on patriotic things like coffee mugs, t shirts, so to learn more about these awesome new perks and support the show head on over to. On Dot. com slash classic movie musts. Thank you very much and now onto the show. I'm Max Baril and this is classic movie. Musts were every week. We breakdown a classic movie while looking to provide artistic insight and historical context. At the very least we'll talk about what makes these movies classics classic. Movie must releases every Friday ready to complement your weekend movie viewing plans. Thank you for joining me this week. As we discuss goodfellas in this episode in our feature, presentation will discuss Goodfellas as the apex of Scorsese's ethnic films, and in our buzz from the back lot segment, we'll talk a little bit about the process of adapting book to film, but first let's get into this week's opening credits. Are filmed this week is goodfellas which was directed by Martin Scorsese was released in Nineteen, Ninety, Goodfellas Stars Ray Liotta Robert Deniro Joe. PESCI and Lorraine BRACCO and also features Paul Survey. Frank Severo and Tony Darrow. In one thousand, nine, hundred, fifty, five young Henry. Hill becomes enamored of the criminal life and Mafia presence, his working class Italian American. Neighborhood in Brooklyn it begins working for local boss Paul, Paulie Cicero and his associates James, Jimmy the Gent Conway an Irish truck hijacker and gangster and Tommy Devito a fellow juvenile delinquent. And begins as fence for Jimmy gradually working his way up to more serious crimes. The three associates spend most of their nights in the nineteen sixties at the Copa Cabana Nightclub carousing with women Henry, start dating Karen a Jewish woman. She is initially troubled by Henry's criminal activities, but is eventually seduced by glamorous lifestyle. She marries him despite her parents disapproval in one thousand, nine hundred seventy billy batts a made man in the Gambino crew who was recently released from prison repeatedly insults Tommy at a nightclub owned by Henry. This provokes his murder by Tommy and. The. Unsanctioned murder of a made man invites retribution, realizing this Jimmy Henry and Tommy cover up the murder by burying the body in upstate new. York, six months later, however, Jimmy learns that the burial site is. Four development, prompting them to exhume and relocate the decomposing corpse in nineteen seventy four carrying harasses, Henry's mistress Janice and holds Henry at gunpoint Henry moves in with Janice, but Paulie insists that he should return to Karen after collecting a debt from a gambler in Tampa with Jimmy. Upon returning Jimmy and Henry arrested after being turned in by the gambler. SISTER FBI typist, and they receive ten year prison sentences in order to support his family on the outside Henry, has drugs smuggled in by Karen and sells them to a fellow inmate in Pittsburgh in Nineteen, seventy, eight Henry is paroled expanse this cocaine business against polly's orders soon involving Jimmy and Tommy. Jimmy organizes a crew to raid the Lufthansa Vault, at the JFK airport, stealing several millions in cash and jewelry after some members purchase expensive items against Jimmy's orders, and the getaway truck is found by police. He has most of the crew murdered. Henry theorizes that Jimmy would have killed them anyway. Rather than share the profits of the Heist Tommy and Henry are spared by Jimmy Tommy. Tommy, however is later led to believe that he is to become a made man, but ultimately shot on the way to a ceremony in retribution for the billy batts murder by one, thousand, nine, hundred eighty. Henry has become a nervous wreck from cocaine, use and insomnia. He sets up a drug deal with his Pittsburgh associates, but is arrested by narcotics, agents and jailed after bailing. Bailing him out. Karen explains that she flushed sixty thousand dollars worth of cocaine down the toilet to prevent FBI agents from finding it during their raid, leaving them virtually penniless feeling betrayed by Henry drug dealing Paulie gives him thirty two hundred dollars ends their association, Henry Meets Jimmy at a diner and is asked to travel on a hit assignment, but the novelty of such a request. Request makes him suspicious and realizes that Jimmy plans to have him in Karen killed prompting his decision to become an informant and enroll with his family in the witness protection program. He gives sufficient testimony to have paulie and Jimmy arrested and convicted Henry is grateful to be alive, but he is forced out of the gangster life and has to readjust to normal life once again. Goodfellas had a budget of twenty five million dollars, and ultimately brought him forty six point eight million at the box office adjusted for inflation. That's a budget of just over forty nine million dollars and a box office hall of almost ninety two million dollars. Goodfellas was nominated for six Academy Awards winning one was nominated for best film editing best supporting actress for the rain. Bronco best adapted screenplay best director for Martin Scorsese and Best Picture. It won the award for best supporting actor for Joe Patchy. Now am I clown am I here to amuse you because it's time for our feature presentation. As you probably already know. Classic movie must is supported on Patriots by listeners like you. This makes such a huge difference for the show, and if you can support classic movie, must and I'm incredibly grateful. You can head over to Patriot Dot com slash classic movie must and for just one dollar a month you can get access to our weekly exclusive podcast. Classic Movie Must Double Feature, which is just like this show, but for more recent movies destined to be thought of as classics. You'll also get our monthly podcast. podcast called Max's movie. must which is a top five movie list show so between those two shows. You get five episodes every month for just a dollar I. think that's a pretty good deal. You also get to vote in our monthly polls. Help decide which movies we discuss on the show, so if that works for you head over to Patriot Dot com slash classic movie must read about are different support tears, and their various rewards and select. What works best for you. I thank so much for your support. Goodfellas is arguably apex of Martin Scorsese's most openly ethnic production, wishing to make a good commercial picture, Scorsese return to the Italian American setting which had already inspired some of his best films, even at a cursory glance, Scorsese's ethnic films appear to share a common attitude and intensely contradictory ambivalence. It is a love hate relationship, which is best summarized in the song at the end of Goodfellas sid vicious version of Sinatra's my way. Scorsese is drawn to tradition, but he also questions it with a brutal APLOMB punk. This transgressive celebration results in cognitive fury. Italian American culture is the reality of his personal as well as cinematic formative years and remains the reality. He can best recreate viscerally. It is no accident that the most blatant documentary qualities of his films like over Inter titles, super eight snippets inserted into the narrative, all appear in his ethnic films. In fact, it is mainly to recreate the truth of ethnic situations and concerns that Scorsese has perfected his own brand of expression Dick Realism. Goodfellas contributes to enhances and explains that realism. Before Goodfellas Scorsese had never tackled the mob directly, but rather portrayed its impact on the lives and imaginations of his ethnic group. The mob had been a menacing horizon, a limit which forced the characters into some sort of readjustment in nineteen, eighty-five Scorsese discovered the right material for a film on the mob and ex wise guys memories as told to and retold by Nick Peleg a New York, journalist and mafia expert. POLANSKI's book Wiseguy from one thousand, nine five chronicles the life of Henry Hill, half Irish and half Sicilian who became a wise guy. The adaptation of the book is extremely faithful, and if the book is a piece of documentary journalism, Goodfellas is a piece of documentary film fiction a docudrama of sorts. It provides onscreen factual information like dates and places what happened to the characters in real life as well as historical allusions making the viewer feel that by the end of the film. He or she has gained knowledge about the world depicted. Henry's voiceover provides contextual narrative connections for us so that most scenes require nobody winning no ending, but merely a few illustrative emblematic shots. This documentary adherence to the facts is at once complimented countered by Scorsese's Ed Bulent, style and I, his restless camera and jump cuts seem to recreate the interior. Style typical of documentaries on a couple of occasions, Scorsese even utilizes the non-fictional device of having characters address the camera, a long tracking shot in a dimly lit Barham with Henry's voiceover, identifying the wise guys who say hello to the camera. As, the film proceeds, however, the camera work increasingly defeats the supposed objectivity of a documentary style, the close ups of such details as food and shoes, the freeze frames, the rhythmic editing are constant reminders of authority expression, however short the shots. The camera is incessantly zooming or tracking signaling a strong subjectivity behind the Lens. The seamless smooth editing does not efface the directors production of meaning on. On the contrary one is always aware of Scorsese behind the camera. Scorsese's camerawork ends up giving an expression stick touch to his realistic portrayal of the wise guys, the kind of expressionist touch which he emphasizes through his use of the soundtrack. Joseph Mak-. wits once remarked that he wrote his scripts quote essentially for audiences who come to listen to films as well as to look at them. The same thing could be said for Scorsese and his memorable use of music. Scorsese's recognition of the importance of music has led him to anticipate the visceral pleasure of music videos in his own films. Scorsese is among other things, a director of oral pleasure in narrative cinema and his talent for image and sound montage should be proverbial. Goodfellas is truly magisterial in this respect. In because Scorsese, now has the means to buy. The rights to songs deeply carved in our collective imaginary. Nobody knowing the pop sociological value of Eric Clapton's Layla can remain indifferent at Scorsese's use of the songs piano exit in the last portion of his film. We I see a group of street children interrupting their ballgame and stare at something we do not see. We then cut and the haunting piano starts. We see what they see. A slow high angle tracking shot over the PINK CADILLAC with dressed up couple in rigor, mortis and dry blood. CUT TO FRENCHIES, body, rolling in the garbage compactor, and then to another slow track in the refrigerator truck at the end of which we see, frank, Carboni frozen body. It's a hyper realist nightmare. Leyla, is an emblem song of a period forever gone a period for which Scorsese has occasional spurts of nostalgia. Wrong over the dead bodies of Jimmy's wants. Partners enriches the factual information. Jimmy is killing these people with expressionistic overtones Scorsese sees the song as the best accompaniment for images of ungrateful. Death Scorsese than uses camerawork and music to impose his own subjectivity onto the story. The third means adopted in Goodfellas to alter Peleg book to Scorsese's expressive needs is to be found in these small, but significant variations from the text. Scorsese film blows up and virtually creates the character of Tommy. Dissimilar Zona Tommy Devito in the film played by Joe Petchey who is not well developed in Portuguese book. The book hints at Tommy's psychotic violence, but in no way alludes to his social private life in Goodfellas not only does Tami rather than Jimmy. Dominate the group scenes, but he endows the film with its dramatically effective mixture of registers comic and very pleasurable and repulsive. Goodfellas comic side allows the audience to let their guard down, and thus sets them up to be all the more affected by the film's brutal scenes, conversely goodfellas violent side gives the film an edge that it would otherwise not have and leaves the audience unresolved as to whether it should be having a good time. This dual effect which redeems the film by keeping it from being a bit too safe is mostly accomplished through Tommy for instance, the sequence at the beginning of Henry's adult life is wonderfully emblematic of Tommy's function in the fell. He is recounting one of his colorful tales to a bunch of wiseguys in a crowded restaurant. No sooner does Henry Compliment Tommy with your funny. then. Tommy's jovial expression vanishes. What do you mean I'm funny? The tension rises as Henry stutters trying to extricate himself from Tommy's unfolding anger. The narration threatens to move from laughter to violence from pleasure to pain at the peak of the suspense. However Henry realizes that Tommy was putting him on the laughter resumes. Henry is one of the wise guys and the violence is deflected outward onto the restaurant's owner. Tommy's presence is a guarantee of pleasure and yet constantly threatens the fill with going out of control. The already disturbing effect of combining violence and laughter in the same film thus magnified. We resent laughing a character who is also so unequivocally despicable. Can Pleasure be so immoral? To enhance the complexity of character, Scorsese gives him a mother played by no less than his own mother Cathrine. This may suggest the filmmakers identification with Tommy a character who is the locus of a dangerously unpredictable ambivalence, indeed most of Scorsese's films have some character with Tommy's unresolvable edge. Moreover in stressing the mother son relationship so strongly. Scorsese makes the point that a corrupted childhood is after all the problem with the tough games played by wise guys, men just do not grow up and good shows the gangsters as kids, but it also cast the spectators into the role of kids, forcing them to feel the contradictory pleasure of liking the bad guys play book ended with an image of a happy and successful Henry thus providing an implicit moral closure to the story. The film's ending however gives quite different. Feeling we I see Henry Get up from the witness. Stand in the tribunal and walks towards the retreating camera all the while looking at and talking to it. Is Words recollect how good his life as a gangster was. We then cut to a developing suburban residential area. The cameras starts a lateral track on a row of houses and stops on Henry. Picking up the paper from his porch while the voice over says that now he has to resign himself to living like every other schmuck. There is no sign of moral growth. The story has not produced an awakening in the character, but only unashamed nostalgia for a child's fantasy. As if this were not enough. Henry's final look into the camera does not even provide a narrative closure. Forties rapidly followed by an unexpected medium. Close up of Tommy. WHO's already dead at this point in the film unloading his gun at the audience. He wears an old hat and his grinning, while the soundtrack starts SID vicious my way. Scorsese does not judge his characters in the way that Palais de surreptitiously does Scorsese's operation on the book is nicely encapsulated by the initial sequence whose importance is magnified by its position in the middle of the credits, and by the fact that it will be repeated later in the film. Henry is at the wheel of his pontiac with Jimmy Dozing next to him and Tommy in the back. Strange thumping sounds catch their attention. They pullover walked to the back of the car and stare at the trunk. Back Lit by red glow, the three men hesitate, and then open the trunk, exposing the site of a man's body wrapped in blood, soaked table clause quite graphically. Tommy stabs his butcher knife into the body. Several times and Jimmy unloads his gun on it to make sure it is really dead. Scorsese then cuts to Henry, closing the trunk and zooms in on his perplexed face freezes, and Henry's voiceover says as far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a gangster. In the Book Henry Actually says something quite similar. He says at the age of twelve. My ambition was to be gangster, but he does so in a paragraph which depicts the glamour of the gangster lifestyle, and which thus justifies Henry's wish, Scorsese took Henry's retrospective remark, and attached it to a scene of something happening much later in the book a murderer. As a result in the film, Henry's words are contradicted by the image. In fact, they make no sense unless we turn to a rhetorical figure, which is entirely absent from the book. Irony Scorsese attempts to unmask the myth of the Mafia by means of visual irony by staging a self conscious observer in the person of Henry. WHO THANKS TO RAY LIOTTA performance turns out to be a somewhat passive protagonist detached from the events, although implicated in them. The first shot after the credits is a close up of twelve year old. Henry's is looking at police cab. Stand through the window panes of the bedroom. In a sense, goodfellas can be seen as the daydream of a male child who wants what the most successful members in his community have. Eventually, the film will show that. The things Henry Covets art nothing, but the things which most men are after power and money. Not everyone has the guts, nor the opportunity to be a gangster, but the myth of success is the very stuff of the American dream. Believe in the dream cannot criticize the wise guy for what he does. Because after all he is just refusing to play straight in a game, which is certainly not known for its fairness, hence goodfellas is characterized by our particular type of irony, which leads to honest acceptance rather than critical judgment, conscious involvement rather than mere disdain. Perhaps such an irony is best described as realistic self-awareness. Scorsese sees through the myth of the wise guy and denounce its fixation in childhood at the same time. He knows that he to likes the same things as the wise guys, success and stardom attract everybody. In a sense, then Scorsese exposes himself together with the wise guys revealing the common element which moralists prefer to overlook. The same holds true for Scorsese's portrayal of masculinity. goodfellas touches a raw nerve in the mail imaginary by making us feel the intense power of the wonderful arrogance of the wise guys on the subject of Irony Masculinity Scorsese must be credited with an interesting move at the time when Henry starts dating Karen roughly half an hour into the film. Goodfellas surprises us by inserting her voiceover. She thus challenges Henry's authority as the first person narrator and provides an alternative point of view. She sees Henry and the Italian American. You with an eye of an outsider, because she comes from a respectable Jewish family. There is even a point at which the narrative is totally hers during the wedding scene. It is fascinating to speculate on how the film might have been reshaped if Scorsese had gone further with the dual voiceover, instead goodfellas bears witness to an old fashioned ethnic mode of masculinity. Is Goodfellas. Just a virtuoso piece with no substance. Is Scorsese indulging in a trip of Macho Bella Gouda in effect, the film's formal extravagance often parallels and enhances the content. For example to impress Karen on his first date. Henry takes her to the Copacabana. They leave the car key to a valet and enter through the back door, thus avoiding the line at the entrance, the camera follows them through a maze of steaming stoves into the crowded club where to waiters promptly place a table for them where no one has been allowed to be, it is undoubtedly a virtuoso piece. One of the most tortuous tracking shots in the history of cinema get it has the formal justification suggesting the drive towards the center which motivates the search for success. The pleasure of occupying a position and of being looked at finds here a spatial and visual translation. Goodfellas is yet another proof of how Scorsese works within a realist tradition, which he modifies significantly bus, enabling it to withstand the recent attacks on representation, it is as if Scorsese knew that reality is never objective because there is always a subject experiencing it. Experience Moreover is never a passive reception of Stimuli, but an activity an activity that Scorsese marriages in his films. He is adamant about making us what he sees. Spectators cannot sit back and choose from the reality. That Scorsese puts on the screen. Scorsese's stylistic Bula is the mark of an extreme subjectivity which could not be further removed from the objective rendering of reality associated with realism. While offering us his obsessions, however Scorsese's ethnic films do give us a strong sense of reality. We are certainly more likely to say. This is how it must be with Goodfellas than any other mob film. This is partly due to Scorsese's adoption of cinematic conventions associated with realism like repulsive material, factual information and seemingly unstructured narrative. Goodfellas abounds with shots which bears witness to both the point of view of the characters and that of the director. In fact most of the Scorsese's films make extensive use of this shot. Scorsese's films create attention between two opposing cinematic forms, the documentary and the fictional. The documentary aspects offered the possibility of a seemingly objective observation of characters, places and events, the other demands subjectivity of point of view, which in Scorsese's work is so severe that the world becomes expressionistic. This dialectic between the objective and the subjective results in his frequent use of the free indirect point of view, the stylistic hallmark of self conscious realism. There may be no objective reality nor realism in Goodfellas, but reality can nonetheless be represented, and realism achieved subjectively precariously in a certain way scorsese's way. Now it's time for our buzz from the back lot segments, and let's start with this Martin. Scorsese I got wind of Nicholas Peleg's book Wiseguy when he was handed the gallery proofs although Scorsese had sworn off making a gangster movie, he immediately cold, called the writer and told him quote. I've been waiting for this book. My entire life play. You replied. I've been waiting for this phone. Call my entire life. According to Ray Liotta Martin. Scorsese was so involved in every detail of the casts wardrobe that he tied Leonidas tie himself to make sure it was accurate for the film's setting. Robert Deniro wanted to use real money for the scene where Jimmy hands out money because he didn't like the way fake money felt in his hands. The prop master gave Deniro five thousand dollars of his own money. At the end of each take, no one was allowed to leave set until all the money was returned and counted. According to the real Henry Hill Joe pesci portrayal of Tommy. Dasani was ninety ten ninety nine percent accurate with one notable exception the real. Tommy was massively built. According to Nicholas Plague, some mobsters were hired as extras to lend authenticity to scenes. The mobsters gave Warner brothers fake social security numbers, and no one knows how they received their paychecks. The Real Henry Hill claimed that Robert Deniro would phone him seven to eight times a day to discuss certain things about Jimmy's character, such as how Jimmy would hold his cigarette. The studio was initially very nervous about the film. Do Weights extreme violence and language? The film reportedly received the worst preview response in the studio's history. Scorsese said that the numbers were so low that it was funny. Nevertheless, the film was released without alteration to overwhelming critical acclaim cemented Scorsese's reputation as one of America's foremost filmmakers. The how in my funny scene is based on something that actually. Actually happened to Joe Patchy or working in a restaurant, a young apparently told a mobster that he was funny. A compliment that was met with less than enthusiastic response pet related the anecdote to Martin Scorsese who decided to include it in the film. Scorsese didn't include the scene in the shooting script so that Pesky Ray liotta interactions would illicit genuinely surprised reactions from the supporting cast. Martin Scorsese reportedly didn't want Ray Liotta to have contact with the real Henry Hill before filming because he had never directed Liotta. And didn't want hill to influence Leonidas performance. After the premiere of the film, the Real Henry Hill went around and revealed his true identity in response. The government kicked him out of the Federal Witness Protection Program. As I mentioned Martin Scorsese's mother Catherine Played Tommy's mother, she and the Cast ad-lib the dinner scene Scorsese's father. Charles Played Vinnie the prisoner who put too many onions in the tomato sauce and later murdered Tommy. That concludes our episode on Goodfellas. I'd love to hear what you think of. This classic movie must feel free to Tweet at movie. Must Potter email classic movie muscle, gmail.com? You can't listen to all of our episodes and learn more about the show on our website. Classic Movie Must Dot Com you can get your exclusive access to classic movie must double feature in Max's movie must over at Patriotair Dot com slash classic movie. Must you can? Can also become a producer of the show just like our producers eleanor be Max on Pedro All Right D. and Jonathan did thank you all so much for your generous patronage on the next episode of the show. We're going to keep this. Scorsese Trainer Rolling and talk about Casino. Remember episodes of these every Friday on the podcast service of your choosing. Thank you so much for listening until the next episode. Keep up with your classics.
420- The Lost Cities of Geo
"You're miles go. Further with the capital one venture card the travelcard lets you earn unlimited double miles for more than just air travel right now earn one hundred thousand bonus miles you can actually use redeemable for vacation rentals car rentals and more when you spend twenty thousand dollars in your first year. What's in your wallet. Limited time offer terms apply see capital one dot com for details signed copies of the ninety nine percent invisible city or back in stock at barnes and noble online yours. Now before they sell out again if you are in the bay area. I've signed books at a couple of india shops here. Green apple and books inc. You can order from them too but it'll be a while before we can travel around and sign books event so get a couple of now for yourself gift while supplies last and we have very good signatures is worth. It is currently the number seven on the barnes and noble starts so they are going fast. Go to ninety nine. P i dot org slash book for links miss ninety nine percent invisible. I'm roman mars. There's one sound that instantly transports me back in time. It's this one. The dial up modem tone it reminds me of being grad school in one thousand nine hundred four. I was talking to one of my thesis advisors about the world wide web and how much cool stuff was on the air and how distracting it was and he recommended that i take the weekend to go through whole thing and get it out of my system. The internet was so new that a person with a phd. Thought you could literally finish it in one weekend for me. The dial tone remains need being a kid in the early nineties. When i thought the internet was just that thing that my older tech savvy cousins logged onto the l. strangers. Now that thing that everyone log onto to yell at strangers that's millennial producer being lay. It's weird to think about. Because i along with probably the rest of you have been spending about ninety seven percent of my waking life on slack or twitter or net flakes or google docs. But i'm just old enough to remember a time before. The internet was requirement to participate in society. It's time before it was everywhere. It was this new thing that you heard about. I i heard about the internet. This is david bonet. I was reading a magazine i think. Pc world or something. like that. and i thought oh. This just sounds amazing today. David's And tech entrepreneur but back in the early nineteen nineties. He really wanted to do something. Great with this thing called the world wide web because the way he thought it was about to change the world for the better david and his business partner a gun and john rattener decided in order to be a part this digital revolution they would found any internet company that hosted websites. The plan was straightforward enough. David and john would provide the online space and some basic tool so that individuals or companies could build their own webpage and the company would host those pages on its servers aren't because their office was based in beverly hills the name the company beverly hills internet. It will go down as having one of the worst names in industry. Actually beverly hills. Internet was doing okay. At first it was starting to get some visitors to its website but john and david found it difficult to get the kind of sustainable traffic that they really wanted mostly because of one huge early nineties problem. What is internet is that massive computerize work the one. That's becoming really big now. That's how does what are you right toward like male. Allison can you explain what internet is. A lot of people didn't really get what internet was. Nobody really understood at the time. What it mant to create a world wide web of these kinds of connections were all computers. Were talking with one. Another and sharing information so i had the challenge both trying to explain to my friends what i was trying to do and the wider world at the same time even though today the internet is woven endure everyday lives. It wasn't that long ago that people had to make this enormously from a world. With essentially internet to trying to conceptualize what a globally connected computer network meant or what they would even do with it before. Search engines like google or social networks or apps the web seemed like this confusing nebulous blob of information. It was a strange new technology. That was hard to wrap our brains around. Because david ran an internet company. His business dependent on users. Having some grasp of what the internet was so it was his challenge to get people comfortable on the web. There's you know we need to develop. We need to come up with something more he needed hug. And one day in nineteen ninety-four. It just came to him. His hosting site didn't need a technological innovation. It needed a conceptual. One users needed a new way of navigating the web so he sketched out a plan to make his website feel more like a real neighborhood. Go through what was a two dimensional representation of a neighborhood where you would see streets and blocks and you would see icons represented houses and you would actually pick address that you wanted to create your website in you. You had a sense that you were joining a neighborhood. David didn't want people to think of the web is something you logged onto but more like a physical place to dwell in like a house. When you signed up for a new web page that web page was your house in an online community of your choosing. This was all a new frontier in urine away of virtual homestead or david his team or endowing users with a sense of digital manifest destiny. One virtual neighborhood at a time it was such a revolutionary idea. The david and his partner decided to chuck out the whole beverly hills internet name and changed their company to something that fully leaned into these spatial metaphor. They were creating. they called it. Gio cities the story of jesus. He's just fantastic parallel for a real building for something that was conceived of creating to model real life butts in the domain of cyberspace. I'm which ultimately had a catastrophic can dramatic fall in the end. This is james crawford. The author of falling glory. The lives and deaths of history's greatest buildings. Gio cities was not a physical place but he included it in his book because the way he sees it it was inhabited like one thing. Jesus he's really providing was was creating these communities and then conceptualizing them please as places you could go as neighborhoods so you could be a citizen of a city of country and you can be a net of somewhere like jia cities. The website was a collection of metropolises each with their own neighborhoods built around shared interests. There was a region called heartland where you could discuss tractor models were pittsburgh. Were you could talk endlessly about your cats or an area fifty one. You could find page after page after. Page of fan tributes to dana scully as soon as david established the specialized version of the web jew cities really began to click for people. David remembers how in the early days he set up a little alert to go off anytime someone registered for a new account. So i'd be sitting in my office and dang and someone will say what's that and i would say well. Somebody just registered for their own page just cities and they sell that school then and then it really started to take off ultimately it would just. It was just nonstop. Ding ding ding ding ding. I mean it would just. It was really really exciting to hear like i may. Oh this is happening a lot. And so of course. I had turned it off. Because it was too disruptive david wanted users who built their web pages in jio cities to feel like part of a community that no matter how obscure their interests were they can find a neighbor who felt just as passionately as they did about star trek or twelfth century. Norse mythology. I think a lot of that comes from my own. Experiences is a gay man and coming out and meeting other lesbian and gay people and understanding the power of meeting others of your own identity. I think people came to it with more open minds and less desire to be performative. In hollywood interacting online it was this fleeting moment when users see more interested in making human connections and honest self expression then in cultivating a web persona. They just wanted to build something. They wanted to build. Something dedicated to dana scully. I was looking to if everybody the tools to create their own content and celebrate the terrific diversity and richness and tapestry of content created by users. There were of course. Some limitations to user generated content cities was a website that was built by amateurs and it showed the color palettes most. Ucd's pages seemed like they were chosen randomly or maybe even chosen with the intention of making them eligible like neon green texts a neon yellow background. There were under construction signs twinkling star backgrounds greenie low rez family photos. Welcome to my homepage shifts or gifts of dancing babies you know it was the wild west just different styles different page layouts and different menus bars and even experimenting with menus and pages that were only menus. An obsession with comic songs font. You know all these things flashing gifts all these things that are almost feel like a kind of airlie vomited of the internet looking back through the lens of the flat design and minimalism. that came after. It's hard to click through these pages without having a chuckle lot messier and much more chaotic. But the pages built on. Geo cities reflected this amazing moment on people were attempting to figure out what the internet was and what it could be. It's this this beginning of the creation of a web culture. And that's what's so interesting is the beginning of a website. It's translating your life. Who you are. Putting it online by nineteen ninety-eight gio cities was the third most visited website on the internet. Just after yahoo. In fact your who was so impressed with cities rapid essent that they bought the company from david executives. Gio cities believed that combining forces with yahoo would put the website on steroids. But that wasn't what most gio cities users wanted users have legitimate concerns that geo cities will lose. Its its its independence and its its identity which is which is ultimately what happened after the purchase gio cities users woke up to a notice saying they had to re register granting yahoo the rights to the royalty free perpetual non exclusive Ranked in lessons to use my dad. Publish translate creek of from distribute perform lay content and over report worldwide. In order to incorporate it in other works in any form of media technology now known or later developed meaning all of the content on the website would now be owned by yahoo many threatened to leave the team protests and the result of that jet who actually agree to alter their terms of service. It was though the the first real sign of unrest in the city. If you like it was the moment that signaled just the very beginning of the end. It was the beginning of the end. Not just for geo cities but for a ton of internet companies around the web. The dot com bubble had been rapidly inflating throughout the late nineties because investors were pouring money into internet startups left and right and just crossing their fingers. That one day. they'd be profitable. There was actually a mantra that you weren't a successful dot com company. Unless you were losing money by the year two thousand and one the bubble had burst. Inc's like yahoo. We're losing their footing. The internet was starting to change fast up until this point. A lot of users have been working any static entry level version of the internet. It was more homemade identifiable by those vibrant personal pages handbuilt by users. It's where gio cities had thrived but by the time. The new millennium rolled around the internet was evolving into a whole new experience. This internet was based drone interactive social networking sites. You would punch in your name. Age in relationship status and the site would spit manicured profile. Page users were encouraged to write on each other's walls and tag comment do yo- cities had created this great spatial metaphor to help people understand the web but users were outgrowing that metaphor having a tuesday these page began to feel embarrassing to a lot of users. Which is basically a death sentence for any form. I suppose because we're so close to it and we we. We know the people who created these in. Oh maybe there are parents. Maybe there are older brothers or sisters and we don't necessarily respected. Yahoo stocks started to plummet shortly after gio cities and year after year. The site was losing more users from a business perspective. Gio cities seemed like deadweight july. Two thousand nine cents for the call service announcements on all it says is the gm cities is closing on all files are going be deleted from servers and will not be recoverable. Gop's was about to be completely wiped out as if it had never existed. You know even if you look at something like dropping a nuclear bomb that's still leaves ruins still leaves people. Those people can then grow something from the ashes. This is an absolute existential deletion of existence. You know it is just taken on. Its own. This was the wholesale destruction of a website that changed the way that people looked at the internet. A lot of people believe that these pages deserve to be saved and a handful of people to sonnet to actually do something about it. There's this sense. Always that like the web is permanent. Like if you do something terrible. It's on the internet forever and if you Have one embarrassing photo. And someone shares it. It'll never go away and to tell you that now it'll probably all go away. This is jason scott. Jason has a few roles. he's a digital archivist historian software curator angel of death. So the reason. I'm known as the angel of death is because i have successfully let people know that when a certain kind of situation happens. Call jason scott. The situation is that a website is on the brink of its demise and all of its digital information is about to be lost forever. Jason's job is to swoop in and download all of that data before it's gone for good and like the angel of death. Jason space is the last thing that dying website sees before. It's gone for good buck in two thousand nine. Before he became the go-to of the web. Jason was noticing more and more that old school hosting services like geo cities. We're going dark. He couldn't stop thinking about all. The user generated content that was being destroyed in the process. The one that still haunts me. Is this woman who in nineteen ninety. Four made an entire website in a html about her child who had died when he was two and she's got a little you know candle jif and a the midi song playing in the background and this was her story. Jason wanted to make sure sites like jews cities in their data just erased so we connected with a group of like minded digital preservation enthusiasts scattered around the world and they drafted a plan. Somebody should come in. There should be an eighteen archive team that russia's in and makes a copy wouldn't that be something so we announced that we're archive team. We're going to rescue your. And that was our slogan. We're going to rescue your archive team. Decided their mission was to keep an eye out for websites. Danger of being shut down the ones that they say are on death. Watch and download every piece of data. They could before that site goes dark. Their goal is to preserve digital heritage no matter how small in their first project gio cities for us. It was worth it. Because we hate yahoo and it wasn't solely about saying up yours diaz who okay. Well that was a very big part of it but it was also about something. Bigger i also wanted people to kind of get knocked in the head about the impermanent s- of digital information that it was both brittle and easily lost but also with a little bit of care easily saved and kept archive team had a dual mission in addition to preserving things they also want us to understand that digital information is fragile the profiles build on social media site the videos you upload to youtube they all exist out of your hands and on some corporations servers and they can vanish at any given moment. They have no idea that can literally literally disappear in a week or a day and it just come to it and it's there's an error and it's gone and i get to see that over and over and over again so that's you know i'm delighted that they're making these worlds and i'm cynical about how long they last year. Who had hinted in two thousand nine that it would be closing down the service sometime later that year so you could have maybe a few months or a few days. Archive team got to work immediately. Trying to recruit as many people as possible to help with what jason referred to as jew cities download palooza. I started using whatever social media capital. I had at the time and about two hundred. Three hundred people in total came in and it was really lumpy. They had their computers crawling. Yahoo servers to pull out any piece of public gio cities data. They could get and we were just doing it day in and day out and saying okay. Who wants to take this part over. Who wants to do this part. Let's look for this. Let's do searches on the web for every noun in the dictionary. Try to find every gio city site that mentions any noun and then try to compile them into a unique sad and then assign it the people to download then on october twenty six two thousand nine. After six months of work the day they all dreaded finally came archive team watched from their respective computers as the digital city slowly went off line for good. Jason said that watching yahoo pull. The plug was like something out of two thousand one space odyssey. It is exactly like shutting down hal and we will be like this set has gone down. They've now powered down this server. They've now powered down. this server. archive team was still working as fast as possible to grab whatever. Data was left while the servers went dark. One by one uric ohs. We just lost this one. We just lost this one. Keep going keep going. And we're just going until finally it's just not responding meaningfully at all. I mean that's pretty much. The ending of every one of these stories is us packing up the boxes putting them on the pallets. You know so. It's just pride that we got the job done but it really feels like we lifted a piano twenty stories and then took it down again. You know twenty minutes later like yup. We are piano movers. But it wasn't all for nothing in the end. Archive team managed to extract a terabyte of data from jio cities and as it turns out there were multiple parallel projects. That were downloading. Tsa these data. A lot of them have sent their to jason. For safekeeping altogether archive saved more than a million accounts from deletion. Archive team wanted to bring some attention to their work. So they took all of that. Geo cities data they'd preserved and they turned it into a torrent on the pirate bay. The pirate bay is generally used for a legally downloading games movies and software. So no one really saw this coming. You're like we have the hottest new wear for you. Here's and she oh. Cities and it was the largest torrent at its time it broke everything And when it got uncompressed turned out windows machines couldn't handle it. People were furious. Because it's it's terrible. Like why am i doing this. It's telling me. I have one thousand nine months to to download shirley. It's some sort of top secret you know allocation of information of the darkest parts of the web and it's like cats and it's lots of rock been rolled fan sites and it's families telling you that they're going to have barbecue. Jason wasn't sure of what people would actually do with the go cities data but that really wasn't his concern. He just wanted to make sure that it was safe. And available to anyone who wanted it and maybe if he was lucky something useful would come out of it down the line. I long ago got out of the argument. Of what good is this. Actually a number of people downloaded the cities torn and made some really cool projects with that data. A good amount of geo cities pages have been restored and you can browse through them online since saving jew cities jason and the archive team preserved. A number of dying websites around the internet from yahoo groups to justin dot tv. It's all accessible on a digital archive called wanda back machine. Where you can find over. Four hundred seventy seven billion saved webpages way back machine was founded by the internet archive were jason. Scott is now anarchist. A lot of time and energy went into rescuing geo cities along with a ton of other archaic sites from this generation of the web. But i wanna be clear. None of this was salvaged as examples of how well the web worked back in the day. No one needs more netscape. Now buttons or backstreet boys fan pages. I think we're good on backstreet. Boys fan pages. The point is these are should be studied because our web history is our history. No matter how goofy it might appear. If the internet's history were sketched to look like the march of progress that famous illustration charting human evolution with an eight on one side and a man on the other jio cities would be like that third guy from the right a little harry little clumsy but definitely important link. That made us what we are today. I mean it's not necessarily arts puts absolutely culture. James crawford again. You know. this is what we've always done as as humans going back to the earliest marks on the caves as you're presented with a surface. And what do you do with it. How do you mark. How do you represent who you are on that space and a number of people have made this comparison between the the cave paintings of lasco. And what was happening. Gm cities and it seems like a a bizarre almost absurd comparison to make but actually if we fast forward another ten thousand years and look back. That's absolutely what it was. It was people grappling with the new technology and how to represent their humanity in that space you can imagine. Thousands of years from now passed the boundary of the cringely recent past to a future human dusting an old pc desktop from nineteen ninety seven. Finding a go cities torrent and taking it an anthropological exploration of. What's inside so the first thing they're going to do is just waste a week trying to figure out if they're getting the colors wrong like they're gonna look at these backgrounds and they're going to be like this is objectively illegible and they're going to check the specs check the specs and go nope those people had no taste what was going on there and the answer was the sky was the limit. So why not yellow on pink. Why not blinking. Text saying that. This is your home page and then an animated jif with three frames of a waving care. Bear right next to your description of love for jesus. This future person is going to discover a tiny window of web history where people were trying their best to chart a course through completely unknown territory where users took chances and we're in a shame look a little messy or garish hopeful. They're going to see this boundless joy of people who are unfettered by feeling that they have to sell themselves to present their best vases and they'll see a lot of lies a lot of truth a lot of honesty. But it's gonna come from a person talking to you because gio cities made it easy to work in the code of the web but didn't teach you to be a performer. So that's what they're going to find and they're not gonna believe it. They're going to assume this was all a trick. Nobody could be this nice. Nobody could be this forward. No one could be this personal but they were. We have another story about eight different virtual apocalypse after the break squares as let you create your own website in just a few clicks. Which means you can showcase your work promote your business or connect with people virtually and you can get yourself. I made my own site. Roman mars dot com squarespace and it has his twitter widget. And i just like click the little box all my twitter feed like shows up at the bottom of the page and it's really helpful at keeping people. Go to my website up to date on my news and right now. I'm when us is only about the book i talk about the twitter. I'm sorry about that but it's what we're doing right now knowing that people can go to the side and automatically see dynamic. New content is one less hassle. I have to worry about ways is full of convenient tools like that you check them out at squarespace dot com slash invisible for free trial. And when you're ready to launch us the offer code invisible to save percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. Everyone wants to keep their home and family save and whether it's for break in a fire. Flooding medical emergency simplisafe home security delivers twenty. Four seven protection was simplisafe safe. You don't just get an arsenal of cameras. Sensors you get professional monitors day and night and it's incredibly easy to set up. No one needs to come in and stall anything. You just do it yourself right now. My listeners get free home security camera when you purchase a simplisafe system at simplisafe dot com slash nine. You also get a sixty day risk-free trial so there's nothing to lose visit simplisafe dot com slash nine nine for your free security camera today. That simplisafe dot com slash nine nine. So we're back with vivian. Who brought us story about geo cities live. Hello how are you. i'm good. I'm good so when the reason why we do these codes is we have all this stuff. That's on the cutting room floor. That doesn't quite fit into the story. But it's so good that we just wanna talk about it. So let's talk about it so something that we kind of eluded to in the main piece but didn't really spend a lot of time getting into was the afterlife of the geo cities data that was saved by archive team. So we kinda focused on like the life death and preservations of geo cities But we didn't really dip into what people have done with it afterwards because the story kind of felt complete on its own. But there's a lot there. So what are people making. This giusti's dana so probably one of my favorite projects is this website called cameron's world dot net which was created by this web designer named cameron asking and i don't really know how to describe it other than saying it's like it's like everything that the space jam website wishes it was like. I don't even know. I really don't explain it. But it's just a really cool way to click through and view old gio cities pages and there's this theme song that loops around that's been playing in my head for like the last two months like it's it's great so you should definitely look at it another website. That's worth checking out is called deleted. City dot net worth this awesome like interactive map created by designer named richard vijen Were you could browse through the geo city's neighborhoods as if they're like neighborhoods on it like a city grid so really cool to be able to zoom in and like see it like if it were an actual city. This is what it would look like. That's cool. That's cool but one project that i really wanted to talk about is called one terabyte of the kilobytes age And it was created by two people named olea. Lena and dragon espen she'd and it's an archive of almost four hundred thousand gio cities pages and And i i originally spoke with only for the peace because she had this really interesting relationship with gio cities and the old web because she was a webmaster and web design professor back in like the mid nineties and she told me that she used to save web pages like the ones in jio cities so she can show her students examples of like how not to build a good webpage like don't use like twinkling star backgrounds or a million of colors or or those under construction sites that are never taken off like. Don't do this. i see you know. She said that she was noticing. The shift from a web one point zero web two point. Oh in real time towards the end of the late ninety s in the beginning of the thousands because it was getting lot harder for her to find like the twinkling star backgrounds or the welcome to my homepage shifts. Homepage gifts jeff's homepage. Skip slick this right now. Okay keep going. You know because she started seeing that they're like disappearing. She really started to study these things and like really loved the design of the early web because of what it represented because very pragmatic reasons i started to collect them just safe graphics and it was not because i thought at the time that you should archive the web or it can have some historic significance. But then i realized that it's not just song that some funny websites disappearing but vision so full hold the worldwide web should be the r gaijin changed so when geo cities torn got released on the pirate bay. Only and dragon like immediately downloaded it and have been studying ever since. But what i really like about the work that they're doing is that this is not a nostalgic exercise They're really looking at what these early web elements can teach us about our relationship with the web in the nineties and early two thousands. Like if you look at something like the under construction sign for example on the construction scientists just foreign picture. It's not just a symbol for the old website but dried to explain. What does it mean. exactly. Why is it important. So basically the enter. Construction sign was assembled for this moment when the web was being handbuilt by amateur users and there was this general acceptance that a website could be a work in progress. Like you could take your time and it was okay for people to get a glimpse of like the building process before was finished But that all changed with the introduction of web two point oh because more professional web designers were taking over and big social networking sites. Were taking over the action sign. It was really the first bond that the professional designers started through from websites. Because the account can it be that it's something not ready. I never thought about that before. Like the disappearance of the under construction sign release signal this move towards gonna corporate version of the internet. Yes that's what olea believes Like this is just one aspect of how cities is being studied. But i thought this was cool because projects like this. Basically show that it's possible to apply some sort of like archaeological lens to this website. That a lot of people wrote off is useless. I mean it totally makes sense to me. I mean the the would tell us what we were thinking of the time that you needed to put up a site so badly like within ten minutes that you had to put an under construction sign on there but you might take it or you might just leave it. you know. we're not cared. Yeah why not so. Tell me her projects name again. So it's called one terabyte of the kilobytes age. It's such a good thing. i mean you. People should definitely check that out. Because i mean it's like they'll have a whole new appreciation for under construction science and what we think of is ugly graphics that really made the web is today. Yes exactly the whole time that we were Putting this piece together. I was reminded of this story that i did originally first judgment where we played it on nine. Pi before about the you know the the destruction of an online community which was also a really sad story in many ways and And so i wanted to just attach it here to to play it for you so you can hear. It is a few months before the end of the world. Paul monaco posted this message on youtube. Hello everyone paul. Monaco here buddha paul. Most you know me as You probably all heard the news jalen. The sims online closing down the world was ending was called the sims online. It was online version of one of the most popular computer games ever made. You've all been wonderful. You helped me through a hard time in my life. When i first got online but ironically the online version of the sims was not very popular may ended up losing tons of subscribers and changing the name to ea land and they finally pulled the block iq and that police and if not down talk with with them whatever you choose to do and we want you as you can probably hear. Land is not a normal video game. There are no monsters no killing and although it had some competitive elements for many players. Competition doesn't the point at all. Unlike a lot of other games where you might be shooting people or slaying dragons or something. This is a game about socializing. Nuts robert ashley and robert ashley. He produces a very popular fantastic internet radio. Show that's been on a very long hiatus and the creator of a life. Well wasted a life well wasted. It's about video games. And the people who love them in e alien was a video game that a dedicated few absolutely loved the crowd that attracted. I think we're people who just wanted to get together and sort of chat meet strangers. It was a nice place over time. It became a kind of intimate almost bar. Like the cheers of video games. Where everyone knows your name. And the moment that paul monaco aka buddha paul found ea land. It was exactly what he needed. Most my wife had a long term illness she. I'm from a blood transfusion. She had hepatitis. C in the last three years or so rely pretty pretty much a challenge for a while for both of us and after she passed away i had absolutely no function of the wake up. Go to work and go to sleep again with with. They didn't get out and socialize much. We you know. We weren't able to go out to the bars and meet up with friends have dinner. I totally be socialized myself and his game was kind of a wait for me to just can get back into into lebanon villas. It was pretty amazing in paul began to live for a land. You play it for hours and hours. It was the first thing he did when he got home from work. You're treated too big warm greeting. Everyone would say hi. You're im's with beeping along and you'd be detained with that. I feel really good. It wasn't the real world but his friends were real friends in virtual worlds. Do have an upside erase. You're calling your religion. The all that can be totally masked and your truly judged on who you really are and how you present yourself. There's no no prejudices no preconceived anything. This really taken at face value from people could really like break loose and and be themselves and have some fun. It just feels really good policy. Tokyo didn't last because e alien started hemorrhaging money. The writing on the wall. The subaru was about to go dark and this event is virtual phillips might only exist in the memory of the players. If it weren't for dr henry low would just stumbled across this project by henry. Low would name. is henry low. Would it was this. Archival researcher at stanford and i had a project called how they got game which is on the history of digital games and simulations saving video games for future generation. You know fifty one hundred two hundred years from now. How are we going to say that history. Like we've got to save the video games. So dr low would in his callings preserve what happens inside video games now for a single player game like pacman for example. This is easy you effectively. Take out the atari cartridge and put it on the shelf but saving multiplayer online games is not so simple saving. The software alone is kind of a barren exercise. If you save the code for failing and turn it on one hundred years from now you enter world. Nothing would be there all the things that paul monaco and his friends love would be impossible to find. You need to document what people are doing in these spaces that situation as much more like what a historian on arcus would do when faced with the problem of documenting the real world so not too low would call wind e alien shutting down. He had the opportunity to record something. A historian or archaeologist would die to witness firsthand in the real world. See what it would be like. When online world came to an end. What happens when a virtual world closes the end of a culture. What is it like to be there in the last minute and when it shuts down so the tape is rolling in the last few hours via land are being recorded and the most dedicated die hard users they're exchanging virtual hugs and reminiscent. The players. are typing messages. That appear like comic book. Word bubbles you hear all these avatars cry and you also hear all the coups and moans and the gibberish language of the game known as similar any no they sound like they're going to be bombed and and everything but it's not like a big pity party but thin toward the the end of the night. There's this radio station that you listen to. The game called charmed radio and they had this. Dj there named spike. He is sort of the only voice that you end appearing at the end of the world and as soon as he starts talking you understand what is being lost. Hey guys the last time you're going to hear me speak well. The last time the forty s or goes down. that's one of the thank you It's been amazing experience. It really has and a pro myself. -cribe icon icon stress enough. How much you guys event to me over the past how. Many years it's been really has been awesome. Add some people attached to think when you make friends. Eleven this game especially really hard. Were song sarah brightman andrea bocelli time to say goodbye. Hopefully you guys were. Id's unequal wanted like everybody. And best wishes. I love you'll and that's been great knowing you take is and misses us. Wanna having a drink is propose a toast powers at. Who's been absolutely amazing peres. Abby thank you get this feeling like being on the deck of the titanic. Anyone who actually states at the end very much invested in the game emotional level when they pull the plug on the server. Bits and pieces of the world started disappearing. The environment began to disintegrate the texture. Of the trees flickered in all the people froze blinked out of existence the actual ending was was not with a bang with a whimper. In the last thing that they saw was basically just an error message. A server disconnect message and then ended. That story was originally produced for the great public radio. Show snap judgment in twenty. Ten ninety nine percent. Invisible was produced this week by. Vivian lay mixed by brian. Barnes music by sean real. Our senior producer is tony hall. Kirk kolstad is the digital director resident. Is christopher johnson. Emmett fitz gerald crisper ruby joe rosenberg katie. Mingle ib madan so faircloth score and me roman mars special. Thanks this week to olea leeann lena. You can find a link to her project. One terabyte of the kilobytes age on our website. James crawford's book is called fallen. Glory the lives. And deaths of history's greatest buildings gio cities. These are just one small section of that book. There are a ton of other fascinating stories about lost and ruin the buildings. We'll have a link to that as well. We are product of ninety one point seven. Klw in san francisco in produced on radio row which lives at various places all over north america but is centered in beautiful downtown oakland california. We are founding. Member of radio. Topa from pierre rex. A fiercely independent collective of the most innovative listener supported one hundred percent artists. Own podcast in the world on the mall at radio topi at dot. Fm in tweeting me wrong. Marson and show at nine. I'm kai org run instagram and read it to you. Can now order the new york times bestseller than ninety nine percent invisible city at ninety nine p i dot org slash book of links to purchase it everywhere that you get books including sign the dishes barnes and noble and at mary's the bookstores around the country linked to the audio book. And if you got the book and enjoyed it review it somewhere is a huge boost to us. Oh also if you see it out on display at your local bookstore a tweet me a picture. I usually tweedles because it's fun to see him out in the world for all your other ninety nine. Pi needs look no further the ninety nine p i dot org
200 - The Humility of Knowing: A 200th Episode Spectacular
"This is exactly right. Why do you need state farm? Renter's insurance gary because it helps protect the stuff that landlords. Don't that's right like your furniture that gets drenched by a broken pipe or burglar makes off with your new laptop. Your stock is worth fit and for pennies a day. You can make sure that it's protected with State Farm Renter's insurance find an agent or get a quote at State Farm Dot Com cage. Free eggs shirt. It sounds Nice but did you know that a cage free hennion only gets about one square foot per hen yikes vital farms though all all the hands are pasture-raised with one hundred eight square feet per hand and outdoor access year round but it'll farms pasture raised bullshit free visit vital farms dot COM com slash coupon for two dollars off a dozen pasteurized eggs. And look for them in the Black Carton at the grocery store. Go by Hello and welcome to a very special special episode of my favorite murder. The two hundred x owed its. Can you feel it. Can you feel it in the air tonight and you feel them stocked up around us. Can you feel feel all the homework. We've done oh you. That's the four hundred book. Reports poorly researched sometimes not accurate passionately nationally delivered. I was absolutely doing that. Have I already covered this case today of the case I'm doing I I know I have but it's the G- it's such a great irony. The amount and I know I said this thousand times but the way in high school I spent and all of my brain power figuring out how to get out of doing homework out of get out of writing book reports how to how I would stare at the cover of silence smarter go. I'll make up what this book is about. And I'll trick and adult and they'll believe me and they were all just to lead to this point in our lives to who college dropouts Hayden Homework and look look at us now lovin homework. You can do it too if you can write a five page report and then admit you're wrong later. I think that's the key to podcasting. It's about the humility of knowing everyone. Everyone knows more and better than you. That's right and you're going to be wrong. Sometimes and ten ninety nine percent of the people. It's okay it's okay and then to and and to sixty percent of those people it's fun because then they get to go actually right. This is the one I'm obsessed with and then we learn something we do. The talking recorded talking. Then you have to write in fashion style and then we have a group hug and then we get to two hundred and that's when we announce the platform change range. Were all of this Alga doing. Yeah we're now going to be doing Improv. Show didn't know great. You didn't get my tax next how we've been doing. We've been doing this off script for so long. I don't know how we're going to start an propping gotta eat forget about memorizing these lines. Hugh memorize every week. Just don't worry about it anymore. Okay not an issue. They're gone can I just say this. So we've just gotten back from our UK Tour uh-huh a long cane Ireland or you sorry UK Ireland with their company retreat to Barcelona and a wonderful time all Away around one of the highlights of that trip was that we actually got to fly Lufthansa Airlines and that is the fanciest airline Airplane Executive Lounge I've ever seen in my life. They had like a Christmas cookie. Setup it's I've and until we get everyone oh my God. It was just like curse of German Christmas cookie like look like a like a puppet play. It was going to come out from behind it. Yes it was like a little shed that you'd come upon in an enchanted worry in and as I explained to my dad not not five different cookies. SOOKIE is literally like thirty cookies on Candy. What you loved about it is that the air hosts what are they called flight attendants is that the flight attendants hated us? They were they. Were these two lovely blonde German men who clearly were sick of our shit. Yes us even though we hadn't done any shit yet no but I think it's a cultural I which I kind of enjoy because it's actually very Irish as well the they're the type of people that let you know you're going to have to earn this even though I am here to serve you. I'm also not really here to serve you. I feel like though I have this. Preconceived he conceived attitude. Has it you. I don't fucking from you. I've done enough friend true. Sorry automatic like. I don't want this fucking Christmas cookies. Then he I don't fucking want this cheese will. I don't know I think it's a that's a good way to kind kind of Try to try to change the dynamic. It's an effective way if you had the kind of weird upbringing I had there's a challenge orange in Oh you hate me now give me. Let's mark it on the clock. Give me an hour. You're going to love me which I have to say by the end of that a trip and it was a very long one by the time we got home. I had both of those guys searching almost breaking down my seat really game before my one lost a Your Bud did you find it in your pocket later. He they found it. It wasn't in the chair. It would had slid into the magazine holder. Next chair brilliant it almost they almost mechanically removed at chair from the airplane. They were breaking down. I kept touching their backs going. Honestly I'll just buy another set. It's my fault on the sounds of sweaty. And you know that they. They didn't find it while I was there. He as we were driving home. They sent me a picture. They found it and stuck it in an envelope. This is a full. They don't hang out of your. Would they have done that if it was me. Listen you guys have a different history. It's a different set up but maybe because I was like I'll take the laws. I'm not making you do this. Please stop doing it. And they wouldn't stop looking and then they were like an we founded now. It's an envelope now. It's on who radio. Oh full fucking service but also the most beautiful executive lounge like I wanted to live there for the rest of my life. I'm definitely getting the couches that were in that you should go back in the executive lounge just at the cookie shed right. I'll stand at the cookie fucking chat right there year round even though it's Christmas because it's Germany don't don't worry about it. They do what they want. Can I tell you can change the subject please. The confession killer not flex. Oh which we've done an ad for a fine fuck and took the time to watch it off as tool fuck and good. No it's Henry Lucas. There's a little artists in there. I really didn't know that whole I just kind of never read anything or listen to about him. 'cause like fuck this Mass Buck and serial killer. I don't I watched this fucking documentary and there's twists and turns in it like fucking again. There's like a whole law enforcement thing that like maybe like you know turns on this person and there's all this crazy shit going on and the victims families having to deal with him confessing passing to like over three hundred murders so then. They're excited that they could get answers. And I don't want to see what happens but like that. He didn't do that. Three hundred murders no totally different story. And it's a really good fucking documentary. Awesome because I have to say there's been a couple people either. People have brought up to us or that. We've heard about or whatever it where I'm like Doc. I don't know I might get my saturation point in terms of just basically all of these are roughly the same. We just keep telling the same story Ray. Reagan essentially essentially isn't because he I mean it's astounding of kind of like frustrating to watch because he was given A chance to confess to all these murders in the way it happens is really frustrating. And so it's it's a hard watch because you really like worked up an upset so it is hard but it's different in that it's it's kind of it's just well done. Oh good I'm I'm GonNa Watch it. Then there's the other one about that Nazi that lives next door who I started watching that too. Two two upsetting to upsetting. Yeah I don't know if it's him I'd never finished it. I don't know if I'm going to start this. There's so much you what I've been watching Since I got back and maybe it was a little bit of like to win me off of the the entire Ireland. UK experience. There's season three of toast toast of London is on the map. Berries British series that character Steven Toast. WHO IS HE'S A? He's an actor her but he mostly does voice over. It's the funniest series. It's incredibly us in CR- intentionally offensive. Yeah so watch be careful careful who you recommend it to. I mean this take of being like Dad. You're GonNa love this and then forgot that there's like so much like just gratuitous sex and insane seen what I'd remember this is just being kind of funny in general You recommended soft porn to your dad. You're gonNA think this is a little areas areas but anyway it's I I watched that so quickly like the ACA I got back. I got it I needed. I took like three days after we got back. Which uh-huh Nice we were making plans we were? We were being being yes to God. You were doing things that in in the moment. I knew we weren't going to do it but I was like but I should. Yeah cut to three days after we got back and I was still on the couch like is it seven. AM or him. I don't WanNa go out after dark and right now it turns dark at like five o'clock clock. Yeah so I don't I like I'm home till like three doing shit and then I have a two hour window to leave the house. J usually don't want to and then it's night and I don't want to. Yeah that's right it Kinda all starts to shut down. It's like we live in a on the North Pole now or something where it all gets. It's a little low key and also my energy just slowly sapped all day long. Then it's like I'm too old to like go out at night now and the thing is I have a fireplace airplane now to Z.. Hit Cozy. My heater was broken. No not to complain complain but when I got back my heater was broken in my house has like a tile floor. It was so cold that I was wrapping the dogs up blankets and myself up in blankets. And we're all on the couch like no one left the couch because it was so cold. When I was sitting up watching TV I was wrapping blankets around my guy around myself? Like it was a game of thrones costume while you're fucking Jacuzzi sitting out there being a not used. Meanwhile I all kind of got together. We should force the dogs into the know. You'll like it guys as you'll have a soak will relax. We'll talk about stuff. I know you're mad that I was gone Can I do a quick merch plug leased. This one's really. This isn't just your regular march slug. We now have a bunch of new designs and a lot of Christmas and holiday items. It's so exciting. I'm great one. We have the stay sexiest. Excellent do God's mission holiday design and we have it on yet they saved and do God's mission on like sweaters and t shirts than on ornaments so so fucking cute We have speakers designed Levin. We haven't new Elvis design yet troopers design. which is the cutest thing I've ever seen? All you Yeti truth is out there you you finally have a t shirt. That's right that speaks for you. We should've had to be in double-sided on the other side. It says I don't believe in Yetis could pick which one you want to be like. Turn it inside next time And we have a year a year and a cult. And then we're also pairing with this really incredible murdering. Oh name name Abby Paul. Who's who is incredible artist? And she's doing some wrapping paper for us. Yeah and she's doing like this really cool December like gift chiefs calendar for us. She's so fucking talented and we'd love working with her. Yeah so that's exciting as ornaments. There's clothing their mugs. Check it out at my favorite murder dot com in the store so many gifts so many gifts to Oh and you can buy people now. A fan coats membership. Yeah as a gift. And the also and affordable we have a black and white my favorite murder logo oh go pin and all the proceeds of that are going to rain. Yeah that's awesome so you can actually get someone something and they feel good about the fact that you're actually giving right twice and their leather other jacket. Looks Cool. Yeah it's just a red pen bonus yeah nice one nice plug load as does it feel good to get back into plugging never never never gotten out of it. Twenty four seven. That is why you stay home so much. Hey Vince have you seen these great news shoes. Check it out you're GONNA GONNA love them. They're called crocs. Georgia won't stop plugging Shit for me. I don't know what to do about it that everything I I think so. Okay great okay. We think of it will say in the middle of the show. Isn't that the kind of structure we've always adhered to. It's been two hundred episodes if you don't know how the structure cars yet then keep listening. Keep listening because we'd love to know if there is a structure or we if there's something we should be looking into structure and we love that you're here we're here to God. It's almost been four years. Actually it's crazy buck. Two hundred seems like hardly any. He doesn't seem like a lot for what it it feels like. We've experienced. Yes you know what I mean to me. This feels like two thousand. I was GONNA suggest that we both go back and listen to episode one but then I'm like why would I do about two us. NO NO NO I. Would I ever do that. Good I just change everything. I was going to suggest that we restart the facebook page. They just really dig into some opinions from at all the Indian. Will you know what it spent are just a true explosion. It's been a whirlwind Roland. And it's so exciting like having just been in Ireland. UK Parts unknown. It's been so awesome to meet people face as to face who are like. I'm I'm as excited as you are. I feel like I've been there with you. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you that we get some time. Take the mom daughter Combo is it. Kills me so great. It gets a good and it's so nice it's like it's it's what I love about. Touring Ed from. All the clapping is really that kind of face to face. Like hey like I've done this with you in all the stories. It's just the coolest stories story saw an exit tangible and people saying like I wasn't sure now I'm like now I'm changed my major to justice that kind of stuff where we're your first of all we say it all the time a week credit for should not get credit for but just the idea that we're like the part of these people's lively it's and in two hundred episodes episodes in this in this way. It's like in a way that you can't understand sitting across the table from me right now with Stephen in the corner causing US dropping the time. Yeah uh-huh giggling into his face. I'm sorry giggling into his hand. You just don't get it if you could see Stephen Gig. Linda's on phase you. It's the earliest. I think. Technically we've been doing this podcast to make Stephen Laugh in the corner this time when we learn that other people listen to it and that's the most surprising part. It's more than Stephen Giggling into his is face. It's so much more than that. And and we get to learn every time we we do leave the house or leave the state or the country. Then we get to learn what that means me and so it's really nice to learn it because that's kind of our perspective is I would say the weirdest yeah. It's the most myopic of all real oops okay so you start your thing I go I go right Yes oh shit wait. This is out of order. They can't it's not starting to Oh shit. Stephen I do need you to run out of paper. Oh you just need through through five all right. I'm actually a little nervous about this one. Okay because it's a big one and a lot of people a Lotta Shit about this a lot of people's that line theories okay. I don't WanNA get anything wrong. Oh God oh no are you about to enter into some jack the ripper tears. No okay I'm about to do the disappearance of Johnny. Gosh Wow wow yes absolutely and this one has levels has fucking twists and turns or does it depends on who you ask. It's it any way you slice the story. It's so incredibly heartbreaking. Obviously but this is just such a painful way. Say That something like this could go. I mean it's very similar to the Jacob veteran case which he covered a couple of episodes ago. But it's got different twist and turns just because of the nature of the parents the law enforcement the you know the public But it's similar so I got INFO from with tunnel wikipedia Info does the Moines Register. Johny Gosh Dot com which I think is run by his mom the New York Times article article on our -cation out will wwl -cation the animal. Okay bye NS sharp couple articles in medium by the true crime times and also the documentary. Who who took Johnny? Yep that's what. It's called a Netflix but netflix documentary. who took Johnny which is so good and heartbreaking? And I highly recommend it so I'm going to give you a little a little taste. Okay here here we go okay please feel free another story really really well too not not definitely not really well this is. This is one of those ones that because the family pain is so on the surface and also Assila part of IT I. It's hard to read. It's not a it feels like one of those ones I. I definitely prefer true crime stories stories. That are like it happened long ago it was one and done or whatever like the group thing happened and ended obviously not for everybody. But like I don't know there's something about the mother continually back trying. I WanNa see that you know and feel and experience what people went through and I helps me understand the story more yet completely. Oh and the one thing I would say that changes because of recent things that that makes it probably much more satisfying defying and. It's bringing it up to a different level as you as you point out is the fucking Epstein story yes that breaks that suddenly accordingly or. Let's get into it. Look like one hundred percent. Let's talk about said thing of like what used to be a conspiracy theory right. Nearly ten years ago merely five years ago is suddenly no. Oh no this is absolutely absolutely possible in real and who knows one hundred percent and we'll get into it On Sunday September fifth nineteen eighty two in the city of Des Moines. Iowa which we've been to. It's very charming status. We love that place. It was west of OIN. was that an upper middle class suburb. Twenty two thousand people twelve year old. Johnny Gosh leaves home before dawn on for his regular paper route which a lot of kids did in the eighties and nineties. It's totally normal thing. The thought of my kid going out in the dark before dawn would would scare the shit out of me but it was a totally normal thing back then. People didn't know that predators were lurking. In fact a lot of people didn't even know the word pedophile. They didn't know what that was. Yeah so so different time I know so. He goes up from his paper route. He's in seventh grade and usually he's accompanied by his dad but that morning for some reason he didn't wake his dad up. He wanted to do it alone. It's heartbreaking but instead he takes his red wagon and the families Miniature Dachshund Gretchen and and heads out to pick up his newspapers at the newspaper meeting place rate. I'm sure there's a name for it. It's where the rubber band the papers they collect other papers and had the warehouse. Yeah Yeah Meyer the warehouse. And that's the last time any corroborated sighting of Johnny Gosh occurs so Kutcher and six. Am John. During Gosh Johnny's parents they begin getting phone calls and those phone calls are from the people who were supposed to receive newspapers on Janis route. who hadn't got them and they were like Gregor emergency and Shit? Sunday morning Johnny it never missed a drop off before so courses parents are worried. His Dad goes out to search the neighborhood just two blocks from their the home. He comes upon Giannis wagon that he had been pulling full of undelivered. Newspapers fucking Gretchen. True to the fuck and end is sitting there waiting. What did she the? What did she see she see? I know that poor baby by all accounts. Johnny wasn't the type of kid to run off at all. He would never have left his dog and his delivery behind he was saving money to purchase a dirt bike. So there's no reason why he would have just fucking less yes. It's not a cheap five forty five in the morning. It's not like he saw some friends and ran off to hang out with them. You know the Gosh is immediately. Contacted the west of mine. Police Department and report Johnny's disappearance. Of course any fucking parent would up until this point history. Children's disappearances weren't treated any differently than adults disappearances which is fucking crazy so crazy. There isn't even a national database of missing children so while the police had the ability to record and track information about stolen cars. Stolen guns even stolen horses with the FBI National Crime Computer. There's no database on stolen children. Isn't that the weirdest like the blind spot That when they are discovered. It's like if you told that to anybody. I think at that point in time they'd go. How is that possible right? Because you assume these things taking care of Assume everyone's gone over things point-by-point figured this stuff out right. That's exactly insane. But of I think that also has to do with like you're in charge of your own kids. Everybody keep themselves. You know if you slap your kids around at home. It's none of my business. Everyone you know no. Seatbelts smoke in the car. If kids were second in class citizens like crazy until very recently. Yeah so the police and it's part of the reason that they're I feel like you'll see but they're not is because of this case so so it's it's an important one. Yeah so the police are just ten blocks away but it takes forty five fucking minutes for them to get to the house and once they're they say there's no evidence of a crime mm-hmm so They suspect Johnny's just a runaway as they always did so. Gosh is also aren't legally allowed to file a missing persons report for seventy two a fucking our really. I thought it was forty eight. It's just dependent on the state. Sh seventy two hours of your your twelve year old being fucking missing zing so the cops are like black. Fuck off But Noreen Gosh is a fucking force. This woman is like the the backbone of the story three she is like having none of this bullshit. She immediately begins voting friends and family and organizes a search party. The whole community seems to rally around. The Gosh is because it's kind of thing it doesn't fucking happen in Des Moines. It's felt like a small town small community and this kind of thing didn't happen. So residents are shocked. That something like this happen. In in their community meanwhile Local law enforcement was shockingly indifferent an Johnny's disappearance in fact according to Noreen police chief or will Kuni showed up to the Parkwood neighbors and friends were congregating in order to do their own search. Just twenty people getting together planning their search for Johnny. The fucking police chief shows goes up. Allegedly some say he was drunk and he stood on a picnic table in through a megaphone yells to the searchers that they should go home because quote johnny because because Johnny was quote just a damn runaway. What the Hell Ah-ha I mean? It doesn't make sense because it's one thing to say that that's your theory of that's the police stance. It's another thing to fight the people who are trying to take action exactly. This is what fuels the cover up stories that are. This is what fuels the cover conspiracies that. Come after. Okay I. There's so much more to this. I can't overstate how little a police. FBI as well gave a shit about Johnny going missing. Thinks she would not stop trying to get them to do something and they fucking wouldn't. They said they didn't have a crime and she'd be like quote. I don't have a son That's like like fucking prove. They'd openly mock and threaten her when she tried to get help from them and they tell her you know all these crazy things and just completely discount her and she was having none of it. So in fact this fucking horrible Kuni guy allegedly began spreading the story that Johnny was not the gashes real child was actually adopted opted and that's why he ran away is to find his real parents. So fucking noreen how to produce John's birth certificate and publish it in the newspaper to improve like she's trying to find her son and this person's working actively working against terminal slandering her that that's crazy so so allegedly Orville had a reputation as the town drunk on key later left the department and disgrace. Of course there's some witnesses and people in the neighborhood who come forward with information about that morning first of all at the newspaper depot place a father and his kid remember a man in a car asking Johnny for directions in Red Flag Don't ask children where to go. And then when the father approaches approaches the man Quickly drives off and according to the kid Johnny said that the man creeped him out and took off to get away so later while on his is route neighbor reports that he will watch from his bedroom windows. Johnny was talking to a stocky man in a blue to two toned Ford Fairmont with Nebraska plates dates the number of Nebraska. Okay the Gosh is distribute over ten thousand posters and flyers. which on his picture on it they sell these chocolate bars at have his picture on it? in order to raise money to hire a private detective. She Noreen contacts local and national media to cover the story. It's seen nationwide. She goes on all these programs grams trying to get help to find her missing son. Ultimately authorities aren't able to uncover any evidence as to Johnny's whereabouts or any motive to fucking kidnapping epping and they find no suspects in connection with the case. Then two years after Johnny Disappears on August Twelfth Nineteen Eighty four another des Moines area paper boy disappears. Thirteen year old. Eugene Martin left his home at approximately five am to deliver des Moines Register on the south side of dementia seven miles from Mike. Johnny disappeared. Eugene normally delivered papers with his older stepbrother but on this day he went alone to disappeared. Witnesses say they saw Martin talking to clean cut white male L. in his thirty s sometime between five and five forty five. Am some state of the to appear to be engaged in a friendly father-son sort of conversation. No evidence of of what happened to you. Jean was ever uncovered in September nineteen. eighty-four a dairy farm in Des Moines Iowa begins printing photographs johnny and Eugene on their milk cartons and the idea of local independent dairies. This is their idea which I find so fascinating is awesome. They put the photos of missing children in their area on milk cartons so that customers ars who purchased the milk will be encouraged to look for the missing children or keep an eye out this half starts in the early eighty S. There had been no system in the United States for tracking missing children. Nationwide nationwide so by nine hundred eighty five. Seven hundred. Sixteen hundred independent dairies in the United States had adopted the practice. It's UNBELIE. It's so smart I I would love to know who who was the first well. If you listen to ninety nine percent invisible episode called Milk Carton kids they tell you the whole fucking story. It's great awesome I'm literally going to write that down so good and it became this like part of our childhood curtain kids in the morning. Sit Down at the kitchen table to eat cereal. And there'd be the face of some kid who fucking look like someone went to school with right there and they were gone they were gone terrifying and we all thought they were like mass fucking murderers everywhere. And we're GONNA get kidnapped any minute well and that idea that it was like they finally. We're taking it into their hands of. This is an item that everyone looks at every morning. Why why not use it for good and get awareness and yes it devastated because it was like on on top of Not much will I was gonna say like the constant threat of Nuclear War I remember just constantly obsessing on as a kid did the when when the milk carton kid things started it was just like. Oh yeah like things are not right. You're just it's a ticking time bomb and tell things go to fucking how yeah I mean. Yeah it was incredible campaign but it is just as as the same thing as kids having no supervision. Well and it's the I think it's the discomfort comfort and it's what people don't like about true crime which is the reality of it. It's yeah you have to sit there and go no matter what age you are and go. Somebody took this Spoi- and no-one found him and no one knows what happened in half to do something that's uncomfortable and up until that point. I'm sure people would be like that. You can't do that. You can't put those pictures on that and it's like no somebody has to do something. There's no one else is going to do it. And I just love that overall. The campaigns didn't have much success in bringing missing children home in the end and was criticized for overstating. The risk of child. Abductions a really. Yeah which brought about a type of moral panic called stranger danger injure wasn't moral panic member totally was it was like US versus them. Don't talk to strangers. Those people are going to hurt you and really this fuck in fear should be in your own circle on life. Yeah that's right So the phrase is intended to encapsulate the danger that is associated with adults Who Children don't know and to reinforce the public fears of strangers as potential pedophile 's despite sexual abuse of children being being more likely to occur in families unfortunately so it kind of the eighty eight as well? It was like someone do something. Yeah so it's not going to be the best plan. Yeah but it definitely raise awareness and it and it did happen. Yeah one hundred percent. It did happen And that's a really good point of this is is that because they didn't even know what pedophile were at the time Johnny's parents in their mind he had been held he was being held for ransom. And that's why he was kidnapped on the first. You know interviews that they do. They are pleading to the captors to just let them know what they want and they'll give it like one. Is the ransom coming. They didn't understand this whole you know pedophile how to file a stranger danger abduction. It just wasn't even on their fucking radars in fact third des Moines Kid Thirteen Year Old Mark James Warren Allen also disapprove disappeared from Des Moines in nineteen eighty six on March twenty. Nine hundred told his mother he planned to walk to a friend's house down the street. And then just fucking vanished so basically weekly every two years. This was happening to the so. Noreen was infuriated by the indifference of local law enforcement on her son went missing. They fucking did nothing. and she becomes increasingly vocal about the inadequacy of law enforcement's investigation of missing children. She establishes the Johnny Gosh Foundation in Nineteen Eighty two through it. She visited schools and speaks at seminars about sexual predators warning. Kids she lobbies for the Johnny. Gosh bill a state legislation which would mandate immediate immediate police response to reports of missing children as it should be is today. The bill became law in Iowa in Nineteen eighty-four on and Naureen alongside John. Walsh who of course became an advocate for docket children when his six-year-old son. Adam Walsh shoe we all. If you're from that time you fucking remember had been kidnapped from a mall in Hollywood. Florida in Nineteen eighty-one they all day. So narine with John Wall testified before the US Department of Justice and in in turn they fuck and ended up providing ten million dollars to establish the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. And that was gosh. She was one of the parents who fucking helped up to get that passed as isn't that incredible. And meanwhile people are calling her fucking crazy. 'cause she won't let it go and she doesn't think her son is dead and she refuses to fuck and give up the fight they're calling Like nuts and staff and she's just like fuck this shit. It's clearly shouldn't go crazy. If she was able to. Then eventually get a law. Exactly like it. You know. There's one thing to be completely lose your mind over the loss right clearly. She was not crazy. People like insulting her for not crying on TV and when she was playing and she was like if if my son is watching. I want him to see that his mom is taking control. Unlike doing shit about it young not just crying you know. Ray is amazing Noreen alleges that throughout her fight to to find out what happened to her son and her battle with law enforcement to give a shit. She began receiving death threats warning her to back off and to stop making waves and she later here says that what she didn't realize at the time was that she was quote knocking on the back door of what became the Franklin Credit Union investigation. Oh aw I wish I didn't have to include this in there. It's like this. It's okay let's just get through this okay and I want your opinion on this Nineteen eighty-eight authorities look into allegations that prominent citizens of Nebraska a As well as high level. US politicians were involved in a child L. sex ring alleged abuse victims claim. That children in foster care will being sexually abused. By extreme higher ups including the CIA the military and politicians in Washington Ashington DC and being covered up by those underneath them so they allege that there was this big a child sex ring where they take underprivileged kids out of foster care or you know ah groom them and then take them all over the country to perform at these parties into be auctioned off. It's all horrendous. It's horrendous says the claims primarily Senator Senator Lawrence King Junior Aka Larry King which gets really confusing. When you're listening to other podcasts? About it who ran the now defunct Franklin Community Federal Credit Union in Omaha Nebraska Ska and it was alleged the ring was a cult of devil worship worshippers involved in the mutilation sacrifice and cannibalism. Numerous children as a quote then in nineteen eighty s information. Yeah right then in one thousand nine twenty one year old Paul. A hockey told his attorney John decamp that he had had been abducted into the sex ring as a teenager and been forced to participate in Johnny. Gosh his kidnapping. He was there and he participated it and that Johnny had been substance subsequently brought into the sex ring and noreen later met with him and said he told her sings that on that only her son would've known BANACCI accused Republican Party activist and businessman Larry King Junior running an underage sex ring and victimizing him since an early age in Nineteen Ninety County. Grand jury found the allegations to to be quote a carefully crafted hoax and Paul Banenky and others were indicted on state perjury charges. So this fucking is insane story. That actually lasts podcast in the left. There's like three episodes about this. This attack government to cover. Because there's so much information yeah okay. So then I put as my head earn uh-huh according to rain and this is part of the documentary according to Noreen In March of nineteen ninety seven. Fifteen years after her son and disappeared. She's he's awakened around two thirty. Am by a knock at her apartment door and waiting outside is her son. Johnny Kills Miami to. He's he's now twenty seven years old he's accompanied by an unidentified man who just kind of like accompanies him and keeps quiet. Noreen invites Johnny End. She said she had immediately recognized. Ignites him as her son. He showed her his birthmark on her on his chest to prove it. She was just like this is him. And she says that he stayed for about an hour and a half and basically confirmed her fears that he'd been kidnapped and forced into pedophile sex ring and was now out but feared for his life so he had gone into hiding and just wanted to come see her. Oh I know Yeah so this can be debated online but I just I think this poor woman I think it was either a hoax. That was played on her. Because there had hi than others or you know just a fantasy that she really wanted to believe. Yeah just totally understandable totally fucking happen. I don't know I mean the idea that someone would pull a hoax like that it's like you're the ultimate psychopaths. You actually WANNA go face to face and fuck with a person's emotions like bat. It's unbelievable but yeah. There are sociopaths out there that would fucking get off on that shit entirely. I mean how many how many kidnapping stories stories have we done where there's always the call of the brain who has nothing to do with it just trying to get money. I mean you know. In the beginning they gave out their phone number. This has been happening to them for the fucking pass fifteen years. There's there had been a ransom of ten thousand dollars where she got to the spot. There was a letter addressed to her. She gave over to police and they were like that's nothing she'd been blown off by all these people for fucking years and all these people calling in you know hoaxes and basically this because there is no actual official rates arm of the law. A helping her having to do it all herself. Kind of opened her up to all totally pandemonium and to have to constantly process and deal with those traumas over over and over again on top of the original. I mean Hor- No. It's horrible I I kinda. I did some searching online and of course looked at our And are my favorite murder g mail and I saw a couple of people mentioned this connection. to kind of it's kind of what happens to Jacob wider laying. Ah was kidnapped sexually assaulted and murdered by a single suspect which I think in this case makes way more sense you know It just so happens that in the early eighties there's a child killer operating out of Nebraska. I remember someone notices Nebraska plates So on September eighteenth. Nineteen eighty-three almost exactly a year before Johnny went missing thirteen year old. Danny Joe Abberley went out on his early morning paper route and the small town of Bellevue Nebraska. Usually Danny was accompanied by his older brother. Other on this day he wasn't at about eight thirty. AM calls from residents. Start coming. And they hadn't received their papers. I mean can you fucking. It's just showing it's like. It's it's a direct Emma. Yeah it's exactly the same. It's a person it's like the story that I did somewhere in the UK. I don't think as Ireland so then. UK where was the guy that just waited when Young women were walking home from like village. Dances remember that killed a bunch of people narrow it just like. Oh somebody gets their your idea the way it works and they just keep doing it over and over. That's right Um and so outside a homer Danny delivered his newspapers. His parents found his Bicycle abandoned and undelivered newspapers. There was no sign of a struggle or kidnapping but he was just had just vanished days later on September. Twenty the first one thousand nine hundred. Three searchers found the bound gagged and partially clothed body of Danny Joe up really just four miles away from his abandoned bicycle. So Oh this was the difference. But like in the Joseph wetering case he buried him. you know so who. The fuck knows. Almost three months later on January eleventh nineteen eighty-four This fucking Badass Astute Preschool teacher named Barbara Weaver She helps apprehend the murderer when she's parking parking her her car in the parking lot at school that morning early she sees a fucking creepy car drive by. She sees the face of that dude and she's like that looks like the police sketch that a witness had made. Yes girl girl. He's driving by her school. She writes down his license plate and sees her looking and he gets out of his car and he threatens her with a fucking knife but she she gets out of there and fucking hat is license plate number which is amazing yeah. He drives off less than she called. The cops obviously less than two hours later. Police Arrests John Joe Vert in his barracks at Foot Air Force Base. An Air Force Base Twenty year old John Jober fit the FBI profile Robert Wrestler's profile to a fucking t including the fact that he volunteered in assistant. Scoutmaster children at so creepy. He eventually Ashley confesses to Danny's murder as well as the murderers of a local boy named Christopher. Walden who was twelve. Who fucking disappeared and died in similar circumstances is an investigators are able to link him to the stabbing death of eleven year old Ricky Stints Simpson in Oakdale main and as you and I know very well Nebraska and Iowa share offense state line? That's right right next to each other and Bill Bellevue Nebraska. Where this murderous occurred is less than a three hour drive from western Wayne Iowa were Johnny cash disappeared and clearly the guys doing it in different areas Like and he's in the air force so he's probably being stationed stationed at different places. He'll drive and shit right. Yep At twelve before I am on July Seventeenth Nineteen Ninety six. He's put to death in Nebraska. State eight Penitentiaries Electric Chair and though John Job it's only a known victims bodies were found not far from where they were abducted and therefore authorities were able to link them. There were bite marks and can similar mutilations and all kinds of awful stuff. There's never been any sign of Johnny so they can't really you know Lincoln and get and it's just speculation collation but I mean the problem is there's no probably no shortage of fucking pedophile and murderers in that area at the time. Sure you know. He was in prison when the second kid. Eugene went missing so he couldn't have done that one so maybe it was a copycat or maybe they're totally different fucking psychopath roaming. As for Narine Chan John Senior divorced in Nineteen ninety-three and she still lives in Des Moines where she teaches teaches yoga classes and continues her mission to help families of missing children back when Johnny disappeared in Nineteen Eighty two when a child disappeared in in. US authorities responded without much. CARE or caution. The Gosh case in New Orleans plight to fight to find her son was one along with several other. In that period that experts say transformed and improved how law enforcement handled missing children and help increase the likelihood of missing children being found yeah it's been thirty seven years since Johnny cash went missing despite her grief and a system that turned her into the enemy. Noreen Gosh said quote you have a choice. Are you going to rise rise up and do something or you're going to sit there and feel bad. Justice said. Show me somebody who isn't a little controversial when it comes to making positive changes all show you someone. He's never done a damn thing in their life. Oh Noreen and that's the story of the disappearance of Johnny Gosh shower. I mean I'm glad that that the milk carton thing happened and it was an over correction all the way in the other direction needed to be. It needs basically what needed to happen. Is this matters children matter. We can't we can't wait seventy two hours. We can't wait forty eight hours. We can't wait any our all the kids all day like crazy shit. That happened because of these milk. Curtains were over correcting. But then you think about the like you know the police chief in this town who saw that and so when a kid went missing he actually accident otherwise he wouldn't have yet alerted into the fact that this happened because the dairy farmers are GonNa fuck and rise up and be lax right. Do It if you won't do it right. We'll do it. We'll do it with noreen. That's right is beautiful. That's right fuck your glueck Lira. Let's gluten allergy luck. You're lactose intolerance. We're taking care of Shit for real. I mean I. That's what I love about. It is is people just going. We don't care what the actual setup is way and do something. I'm not gonNA listen to you. Know to authority figures even if to authority figures who have too much to lose by doing it wrong therefore they don't WanNa do anything at all. It's like slowly watching the process. We get to look back over all these years because what that's been thirty seven God. It's so it's like the changes that have happened going Robert Wrestlers He fit the profile profile. Almost gave me chills. Who's like thank God now? We're talking about him doing profiles now. We're in mind hunter. Part of the story where people are actually going. This is something we have to track and pay attention to talk talk about that now. Local police are overcompensating when a kid goes missing. It's better to have overreacted. Senate is to be completely wrong. Let's hope they're down on fishing by the river by themselves. That's the dream but don't fuck and rely on it now and I don't think anyone really doesn't things and I don't think the public would let people do that at a health or not. I hope not yeah. Good one thank you. Can I tell you something really quickly on the podcast. Yes you just said thank God I just say thank God prevents April two. You know that your dad and my husband text each other. Are you aware Vince or watching. TV events looks at his phone. And I go what Oh Jim just sent me something about Budweiser Funny Joke. He's like any time they're sending living in the in the news about Budweiser. We texted each other. My Dad is should never given insult because my dad sends me like political cartoons of trump. Doing doing some like flushing toilets. Fifteen Times whatever the latest thing and it. Just stresses me out am. I never know what to say. I'm like ha ha burning worse. Worse yes is horrible so when I think. I said that he told me to tell Vince something. And I'm like you should just text because I know you guys have each other's phone away. Hey It's love I think I think maybe gem Kinda reminds him of his dad who passed away so yeah. They're the old school type. Yeah they drink. Vince isn't drink budweiser but he pretends to for your dad to drink. Budweiser for my dad is because he knows how much that matters and I told you when you and I first met and I started doing this show and we started dating when we first started dating events now we went. That party at Pat. Walsh is House Vinson. I talked and I later told you he did it. Ming that was so my dad where he as he was telling me a story his hand he this holding his beer. He pushed my shoulder before a flight effect. Rate to be like me and my and my home with all my uncle's like it was the craziest thing so it wouldn't surprise me if if Vince is like. Oh that's how my dad used to be because I feel like there's just style dial similarity second man. That's it yeah and then remind me somebody to tell you that are you're in my wedding talk about it later. Guess what I hadn't done my homework. There was all this homework about it and thank God. We came ready and I. It was just another day. Can we do this wedding on a Sunday please. Or wedding very government. That's for episode. Three hundred we'll have a live wedding stream that live wedding girls okay. I'm GONNA do Leftover Hallmark Arc from when we were on the great island of Ireland homeworkers homework rate. It got done. I just didn't WanNa do it because I was like. Oh I don't know and then I found one. That was a I could put more jokes into because that's my priority. That's a good one but now let's make Stephen Laugh now But this is this is one of those ones where it's like. It's a small town like like a family massacre. Who yes awful? Yes and so. I thought thought I tell you all about it Mala hide massacre You know this one is at the barn one. It's a family but happened in a barn. No I don't know breath okay. So this The majority of information so the Irish Times is the believe Dublin newspaper. Please check that Stephen. I'm almost positive But they have a series called or they did at least from one. This article is from called loss leads which highlights lesser known stories that were featured Richard Times from as far back as eighteen fifty nine. While so. If you pull up one of these stories than the side column becomes all the other one the how about this you you never go to sleep. They have very good. I mean like it's so it's the best idea so this article was written. The one about this massacre was written by a writer writer named Dean Ruxton another source that I used was a website called old yellow walls dot org and then of course the classic murder Pedia so so this starts on Wednesday March thirty first nineteen twenty six. A man named Henry McCabe a gardener arrives for work. At the La Mancha House in Mala the high which is just outside Dublin it's eight am and He's just there for work so this house is impressive. It's at three story Georgian in home. It's on about thirty acres of land in this Wealthy seaside neighborhood and houses owned by the McDonnell family. It's four adult siblings that live together so it's anti who's fifty six. Joseph who's fifty five Peter who's fifty one alice. WHO's forty seven? Can you imagine still living with your sister sir. I mean that the fighting the volume alone aggression or of them. There's four of them And they're all retired so They bought the house In one thousand nine hundred eighteen after retiring from their successful grocery drapery and general store in county. Galway which is where my GRANDPA's round represent galway. So yeah I guess they. They made a ton of money and then they were like. Let's go by this route house. You can elect a party the other may be. I mean the the from the Irish people that I know. They're very they're very cliquey clammy like that would have been hanging out anyways. Might as well together yet entirely okay. That's how my family is kind of fun for like a weekend. Yeah well it's fun and then you know throw some a beer and whiskey in there and maybe fiddle and story. Everyone's got their. PC knows there's going to be fighting on the front lawn. That's a full weekend You don't need money for other extracurricular activities at all happens in the house. Okay so So they've all lived there although they'd recently decided to put put the house up for sale so there had been ads about the house running in the local paper for a few days before So when Henry gets to the House on the morning of March thirty first he notices. He thinks something's off. He notices their smoke coming out of both chimneys. And there's no other signs that anybody's awake AAC. No other lights are on or anything and then when he gets closer he sees. Smoke is billowing out of bathroom window. So then he's like Oh shit he runs to the back door of the house And finds that it's been broken open so he goes inside as far as he can Were before the flames. Keep him from going any further any calls for the McDonald's but nobody responds so he runs into town To get the fire brigade and on his way he passes a neighbor Mrs Riley Day and he tells her about the fire she then tells a police officer and a a local neighbor neighbors. The only the only kind of neighbor so you can be they this. Those two guys run to the house before the firefighters. Get there to see what's going on on and They break into a basement room so I'm sure they went around looking in the windows and the basement room was where one of the Employees Floyd family employees. They had two employees that lived at the house. And one was this man James Clark who is forty one years old and his bedroom down in the basement. So they Br Break Open the window. They see that he's partially dressed on his bed. They drag him out of the House to save him from the flames but once they get him outside on the lawn they find and that he is already dead but not from the fire. He has defensive wounds all over his forearms and a deep gash on the left side of his skull like he's been hit with a sharp narrow metal object perhaps a blow Po- what's up the staircase. Yeah right So so then the fire brigade arrives around eight fifty. Am put out the fire. But at this point the roof is collapsed. The interiors almost completely demolished So then Aside from James Clark firefighters pull out five more bodies from the house. It's Anne Joseph. Joseph Peter Alice Their Servant Mary McGowan. WHO's fifty years old Analysts were found in the same room. Upstairs Peter is found it in his room They're all all of their body bodies are charred beyond recognition And then Peter's body was a down in a different room room and it was laying there it had been stripped bare and then lane on top of him was a A wool singlet and a pair of pants. What's but just laying on top of his body like someone else? Put it there weird and then nearby a fire poker with brain matter on it was was next to him okay. So on the day of the event cover him with Komo's We'll see so on the day of the event March thirty first first. Firefighters inspect the house To determine the cause of the fire and they see that it had started in several spots throughout the house so The theory was somebody walked around and pouring a spirit of liquor or something flammable around to light it in several places Then the medical examiner finds trace amounts of arsenic In some of the bodies not enough to kill but enough to weaken Them and so basically basically the theory is the killer would have had a physical advantage because he wouldn't been able to take four adults or four six adults at one time And because is the defensive wounds that were found on James Clark's body And the fact that only some of the bodies were burned but all of them were dead the police conclude that everyone was murdered. First first and then the fire was set intentionally to burn the evidence Also when the house is searched afterwards. There's no valuables found in Sayaka and these are rich. Rich people basically how terrifying like to live in that area. Just that horrible thing happened just to like. Oh it's a house fire. Oh No it's actually. It's a murder with a house fire on top. It's not just one person alone. which would be easy to fuck? You know kill. It's like six fucking adults. Six adults terrify all around the house. Yodeling okay so as authorities searched for solid leads. Of course the rumor mill kicks into high gear so some neighbors or gossiping at the McDonalds Siblings had been fighting and maybe those fights led to the murder others talk about how strange it is for four adult siblings in their leaf of forties early fifties to all be unmarried and living together. I thought maybe it was just like the time it was normal. I mean maybe it could have been but I think in this situation where suddenly the everyone's dead people are just like okay. What could have happened? And then that opens did imply it starts to imply that maybe the murders were born out of there was sexual abuse. There was in says. There was mental illness there with things going on in the house like water. The family secret essentially but close friends of the McDonald's vehemently deny any of these stories They say they are incapable of murderer. And that that none of that other stuff was was happening So but either way of course. Local newspapers a go crazy on this story and hundreds of people travel from all over just to come and take a look at the house. Because of course it's like this is a this is a six person murder Howie And not have TV and we TV and this this is what human beings do. It just is Okay so on April second. Nineteen Twenty Six. The police bring in Henry McKay for questioning. Since since. It's you know obviously suspicious. He's like number one suspect arcus. Yeah he's the gardener and he's the only person that was a regular at that house that survived. was not attacked in any way so he gives his account of what happened in the days leading up to the fire. He's the night before the fire. He claims that he sat at the kitchen table. Would Joe reading the paper until about eight PM. And then he left to attend a week and then he leaves the wake the next morning at seven. Forty five five. Am Shit because that's how the Irish do wake says that some passing out it fucking five thirty am and then waking up at seven. Hell yeah the couch. You get to the wake nick. You have eight beers you sing some songs you cry you put your arms around people you do this you do that. Yeah you wake up you have some toast host. He basically stopped home to freshen up around seven forty five the next morning and then he goes to work at the McDonalds where he finds the house. Fire He tells police that he'd never really seen the family fight per se but in the weeks prior to the fire they did seem quieter than usual. he claims was he had hadn't seen Annie or Peter in a few days but that Joe told him that they were resting in bed because they were sick and according to Henry both he and The I think it was either two or three cooks that had worked in the house. Over the years that Henry had worked there They all said and notice that Joe almost never spoke to anyone in the family he mostly if he was going to speak to anybody. It would be to Peter but even then it wasn't warm or you know like brother to brother. It was polite and in business like And Henry also claims that the neighborhood kids called Alice. The madwoman of La Mancha which seems totally like something kids in your day you know how kids love talking about Lamont. They they love to make literary Reverend because she'd sometimes run out of the house looking disheveled and acting hysterical. Oh God that's scary And then he also says that Peter was known run in circles in the yard and throw at unquote throw himself down on the ground and laugh like a schoolboy booze baby. That's all those Both of them could be but basically Henry he tells police when McDonalds the McDonalds. I moved in. That's two wells not a D- When they first moved in that he had been asked by the siblings to dig a hole to bury a safe under their porch and then three years later he was asked to dig the safe backup so they could return in it to the store He's he's telling the police this story when they're just asking what happened at the house and suddenly he's talking about this safe And at one point his. He's searched and they find the keys to that safe in his pocket while he's being questioned by police But other than that Henry McKay Henry. McCabe is a husband and father of nine so as far as anyone knows. He's an upstanding citizen so after taking Henry statement the police deduce that may be Peter McDonnell quote must have lost his reason during the night and having slain the whole household set the place on fire fire and succumbed himself to heart failure or was suffocated by smoke or else poisoned himself. So rock solid theory of what happened. I got I'm on board. He killed everybody and then Kinda died afterward. Some way in some strange way But when the time of death is a is revealed For All of the victims had been dead by had been dead since five. PM PM. Monday evening so Wednesday morning is when Henry found the house on fire because of the corners like they've been dead for a full day if not more more okay but it's also nineteen twenty two twenty six twenty six. I mean can the corner be like Oh to my deduction we have a pocket watch instead the guestimation and we do know that some of the bodies were charred beyond race. But the the the problem with that is it directly conflicts with Henry Story story that he was sitting at the table reading the paper Joe the night before got it so then they're like Ooh okay well even if it's not the full like two days before right right. Something's something's off okay. Yeah for sure then. The police discover that the Pants Henry Macabre wearing when he was first detained actually belonged to Peter McDonald. Donald how the body that was stripped bare. Oh why would he do that. And then where to work will. Why would he so This this is found after A guard of a police officer Gardy Reports that Henry had asked him To have his wife lie for him and say that Peter had Sent him the pants like that he'd been given the pants long ago and that he had already owned own the pants but he basically tried to get a cop to tell the wife to tell that lie and the cops like fly got you. I'M GONNA go ahead and tell my boss about yeah a house instead real quick so the police then began to theory. Is that if Henry was the one that was responsible for these murders that at at some point during the murder of all these people he could have somehow soiled his own pants and then basically Gotten rid of those and taken Peter's pants off of him and put them on because they were really nice gray like newer pants slacks. And in maybe a woolen slack slack real high though nineteen twenty so so they come right up to the nipple so many please And basically so he. He got rid of his pants. Let them burn in the fire. And that's why Peter's body was found with just a cigarette and burn anyway anyway so it's going to address them and it'll look like oh these were his. They're here right so essentially once they once they kind of put all of these things together. the police get Henry to sign a statement of confession. So Henry McCabe is formally charged with murder in April twenty in April of nineteen twenty. Twenty six So even though he signed the statement of confession he then pleads not guilty and maintains his innocence so the judge is worried that the statement was coerced. His trial begins in November of nineteen twenty six prosecutors claim. That Henry is the only logical suspect back. He has access to the the Macho House But none of their explanations for Henry's motive are are that good so the they search Henry's house and they do find clothing with bloodstains on it. But he's a gardener. So you could do. It could just easily be his. And 'cause it's out he's out working with big shears and getting cut in brambles and bushes and stuff maybe any nine kids were falling and doing all kinds of crazy shit. Teeth falling out randomly lip biting. Yeah they don't find any valuables in Henry's house so like thinking that all the things that were missing it from the Lamantia House might be found there they don't find any they They claim that that a Henry was scared that he was gonNA lose. This is job at McDonald's Sold the house. But that didn't make sense because he'd actually worked there for the family before the McDonalds bought it so he had just remained the Gardner and he's going to double lose his job if the second occupants die right so So the defense relies on the neighborhood rumors about the McDonald's to build their case they say it's entirely possible that either Peter or Alice McDonnell could have gone mad with the IT. You know everybody implying saying that. They already might have been a little crazier there that they had just snapped and killed everyone in the house before killing themselves As for the arsenic the prosecutors note that there's arsenic in one of the gardening chemicals that Henry used in the garden. Defense comes back in his leg. He does not extract our snacks from us from these gardening in chemicals. Like any didn't live in the house so he didn't have a way to slip arsenic into their food even if he didn't know how to And also the defense says is poisonous. A woman's weapon and guided through and so they say it's more likely Alice would have poisoned anybody if it was anybody buddy that did it So it's a six day trial and the judge Justice o'byrne tells the jury if you're satisfied. That McCabe is the only person who could if committed this crime. You must find him guilty but if you have any reasonable doubt you must give him the benefit of it so the jury goes and deliberates for fifty minutes and comes back finding him guilty of all of the murders tall and he sentenced to death by hanging. I don't think he did it okay. So on December Ninth Nineteen Twenty Six. He's taken to the gallows when asked if he has any any last words. He says all I have to say as God forgive them I I am the victim of bribery and perjury. So he met. Henry maintains his innocence all the way till the end but after his hanging Some damning facts are revealed about his life. Our come on man. I was fucking rooting for you. I know it look a lot of people were hitting that judge who was seemed like this all could be just like they want to get this taken care of her So these are all things that they couldn't talk about in during the court core case but in his youth he moved to England where he had several run INS with the law and They they weren't defined it particularly but he did go to. He did serve prison time for them. Well who I am. And then when he was released he moved to Birmingham and there he started dating would woman but he soon arrested for attempting to murder her do that. He serves another fifteen month sentence for attempted murder and then eventually moves to just outside Dublin. Okay so none of this information can use during the trial because of the code of criminal procedure that disallows the court from using prior charges to argue their our case so basically some people are kind of like well then this this is almost like if people were worried it was up nair whatever. Well well at least we have this these prior convictions. Or maybe maybe support that sure but some. Maybe some people aren't sleeping that well maybe some people still aren't sure and then seven years later in nineteen thirty three a local boy named denning then last name is denny now. He's digging in the garden of the House on Church road in Mala High When he digs up to silver watches one is inscribed to James Clark? who was the the man who lived lived in the basement And the other is inscribed to Jay. Nick D. it said that one Henry was alive. He was the gardener. Who planted entered the shrubbery at the Halcyon? Church rose in that particular garden. He's like I can do something with this Shit and fucking Berry O'Leary that Ah Lieut Hall over probably not just and because you know that thing where people are guilty and they start talking because they think they're smarter than so he tells it's the story of bearing the safe which basically mislead them by having them go in a different direction by over talking. Yes but I think people don't understand the in your subconscious conscious the reason you think of the things you're talking about it's like you're giving yourself away and the idea that he's talking about bearing the safe which is like clearly he knew there were valuables bulls. They had they had money. They had stuff hidden. But also it's like burying stuff like it's a whole area that he wanted to talk about uh and anyway so it's not it's not hard the hardest of evidence but like it would be interesting to know if they found any more stuff buried in yards yards around. Grab a fucking metal detector and they detector is season three and that's the harrowing story of the Mala Hide Massacre. Don't fuck going for them. Being the family either one of them murdering everyone else or them not them killing themselves. Because I don't think the servants would have done on it as well if it was like the four siblings. Maybe but I thought it was the guy who had closed laid on top of him. Yeah because he clearly he was the last right and he like wanted wanted to modesty so he covered himself up as then right the end but now I don't think so anymore and it's interesting because back then it they just had had to kind of there was so little science of any kind plus. Everything's burnt so they just have to go through and like really piece stuff together and you can absolutely see. We know that it happens all the time it's like. Oh the Gardner. The guy that the reported it yeah Poland. Whoever sent Gal was like bullshit? Yeah and this whole thing hang but like the idea that he had the safe the keys to the safe in his pocket yes he was wearing one of the deadman's Pan. Yes like there were so many things that were just like. He had a ton of his little kids. Teeth blood all over his pants down. Why don't you just wash those Pan when your kids do you keep falling fucking head? Why why don't you keep backup pants in the Gardner shed where they should be and that's a good lesson to learn always keep backup pants. I mean you know that I live by it as my great fear in the world is something happens to my pants and I have to borrow pants from somebody who's pants or too small like a nightmare I live with. I didn't know that. Yeah kilos sweats in the backseat. I feel like two hundred episodes in. We're still learning so each other out. It's so fresh dot also thank you. I mean it really was a bit bit of a So I mean it was not fun. That's not fun this is not. This is a but it's interesting also because when you're in a a place like that where it's so Everything's a has that small village. Small town feel where the influence of what people say and the. It's the same thing as noreen. Gosh being like oh she's crazy. Ah where once you get the like public opinion stirred up of like you know those people in the how right they all killed each other whereas just like oh yet. They're they're not around to defend themselves if they were private people. Then you can kind of say anything after the fact crazy yeah That's it that's it we decided are fucking Herrera is going to be you do you guys it. It like Janet. You thank someone lever the listening. This life has turned out. Really fucking insane and unexpected and not at all. What I you had in mind for years ago now for the rest of my existence end? It's completely changed that and I am so oh not just not just like material things and how crazy this is in like fucking our book being on audibles top audio books on the nineteen not just shit like that but like the fact that there are people who really care about us. We don't know you know are out there and in how lucky we are that we help people go to therapy and get help and get on medication and how to deal with their mental health. We feel very fucking grateful and I I. I really can't believe that we get a chance to this with our lives and I am so I'm honored night and so two hundred episodes in is pretty fucking incredible. It's pretty pretty amazing. I think we should also take this time to thank Stephen Raigmore. Who Absence Right like you came in sixteen seventy it was Stephen? You came in such A. We needed you so much and you really we made you do so much uh-huh and you really Kept US going in those early times. Where we we didn't understand what was happening? We couldn't wrap her arms around what was happening and it was so oh great to have you. It's been so great to have you thank you what the kids are say is writer. Dai Nine that's right nicely you know what's very satisfying to me is that I feel like the things that we did early on which were almost like us being like. Oh Bernie Brown. We're learning how to be more vulnerable. We're learning how to be honest about ourselves as we're learning how to say what we think is the most shameful thing about ourselves and then share that so that maybe the shame will dissipate and instead of that just being like a weird exercise between you and I like uncomfortable Thanksgiving or on our podcast just as a test or whatever it really was the. I Dunno the fertilizer that grew this beautiful garden where you know. I spent a large portion of my life believing that I could never let anybody in to that vulnerable side or that. That was some kind of of that that would be a huge mistake or weakness or the worst and instead it is. It's been this ridiculously unbelievable lesson in how that is the way to go like that. That really is this kind of thing where we all go. Hey guess what. Everyone's mentally ill. They really we are and the people who can't admit it the most usually have the biggest secrets and the biggest sicknesses. And we don't have to be Cowed by anyone. We don't have to be made to feel bad about ourselves by anyone. We get to choose how we feel and we get to choose how we deal with how we feel and so yes sweet. You know. There's a lot of talk about like were scared of this. And we're scared of that and God forbid you go to the forest and all those things that we've done that's been over the top and reactionary and US telling horrible stories and then trying to think of solutions to those stories but really at the end of the day underneath all that I think. Yeah I've been learning at least is the opposite which is opening up being honest being direct trying to be like go. Here's the thing I really fear and it is it. Is it a real fear or is it just this thing that actually holds back and like and maybe if I just throw it out there people at least I can get a little relief and then maybe somebody else gets it a little relief. I think the word of the day is that it's led to so much connection And that is such a beautiful thing and I'm I'm in awe of it in we you and I have felt it. Yeah and I think everyone else's assists felt it with each other and if that's our fucking legacy than I am hell. Yeah a man those. That's what we need in. Life is more connection. I and even if it's scary and you have to be vulnerable about it and you have to like show your ugly bits. You have all that fucked up shit all my shit. There's someone else on the other side going. Yeah I have that to be friends. Let's be friends and also let's not feel so bad because I am a product of the horrible Hollywood system that that you know that I beat my head against for twenty years until this lugging fogcast and all of a sudden. It's like boom open. You have to be vulnerable yards. It won't work it won't work and it's audio so like it's it. It doesn't like you know it's it's a whole different. It's a whole different Discipline I think. And maybe even a harder discipline because I've gone on a billion diets but this thing is a whole it's a whole different approach. And so thank you for giving shed for listening and participating and being with us and thank you to the people who Who Get us and know our our intentions because we do absolutely fuck up so much and talk about things that then we only find out afterwards you know offend people or or aren't the the right way to think about things or whatever there's so many people that listen to this podcast and comeback going? I know you don't know this and I know you would wanNA know this. And here's this piece of information information giving us the benefit of the doubt which we are We are honored to have and we will be careful with and take care yet exactly. Yeah inversion the vulnerable to to not being perfect and to change and God you guys thank you so much two hundred fucking episode man so crazy take this in life changing thing you've given us. Yeah and thank you for this. Success is because of all you guys participating and wanting to and You know here's to at least fifty more. Let's say twenty five twenty. Let's let's promise Ms Twenty Five. Let's aim for fifty. Come on up at least until next summer. Yeah let's do it okay. We'll then stay sexy and don't get murdered. GotTa the two hundredth time you WANNA cookie. Hey Karen and yesterday why do you need state farms. Renter's insurance oh because it helps protect stuff landlords. Don't that's right like your furniture gets drenched by a broken pipe. Or when a burglar makes off off with your new laptop your snaps worth it and for pennies a day you can make sure it's protected with State Farm Renter's insurance agent or get a quote at State Farm Dot Com go by.
McBride Sisters Wine (Part 2 of 2): Robin McBride and Andra McBride John
"This message comes from NPR sponsor Adian the future-proof payments platform welcome all payments beyond the cutting edge of customer experiences and grow your business with. Adian Visit A. D. Y. E. N., DOT COM SLASH NPR to learn more hate really quick before we start the show the how I built this book is now a New York Times and Wall Street Journal Bestseller. So thank you to. All of you who ordered it and for your support of this show, if you haven't picked it up and you WANNA learn the secrets of how to develop an entrepreneurial mindset how I built this. The book is for you. It's now available wherever books are sold and in most countries around the world or by visiting how I built this dot com or Garros dot com, and thanks. We did go to vineyards. and find grapes that were available, and then we also need to find a facility where we could make our wines and we also needed to get licensed to do so. And then we also needed to get national distribution ourselves. There was an immense in six months to do all this six months. I mean we had to do that really unlike ninety days sounds absolutely terrifying. Exciting exciting. Yes. It was very exciting. Thrilling. Frontier. It's how I built this show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. Guy Roz on the show today how to sisters took their life savings top themselves winemaking and shook up an industry with a brand designed for a whole new type of wine drinker and called it the McBride. Sisters Collection. Okay so I warned you last time this story is epic right and I am assuming you're here because you've already heard part one of this two part story how two half sisters who didn't know the other existed until both were grown up went onto launch one of the biggest black owned wine companies in the world. But if you haven't heard part one, please stop listening right now and go back one episode and your podcast queue to hear it. As for the rest of you, you've now had a few days to dry your eyes and recover from the first half of the story. Which means we are at the business building part of what would eventually become the McBride Sisters Collection. Now, the thing about Andrea and Robin mcbryde is that despite both growing up in winemaking regions Robin in Monterey California, Andrea in new. Zealand neither sister had any real connection to the industry and neither had any real money to put towards a business. They were also young women of color trying to break into an industry that's often been dominated by older mainly white men. But now this matter they didn't care. They knew that they both shared a love of wine and that they both had a deep and powerful desire to work together. and. There was one other thing. They were motivated by mission they wanted to build a company that would make wine more accessible to disrupt and demystify the sometimes intimidating parts of wine culture. Grape varietals had a tasted regional nuances. Ratings even had a read labels. And when they I dreamed up the idea of starting wine company Robin, the older sister had been working at a corporate job and was married with three children and Andrea, was a college student at USC. I mean. Neither of you had a whole lot of start up cash if any did you Robyn did you I mean you had been working but you also family did you have any savings I mean not match you know it was kind of a nearly paycheck to paycheck. Already got married. We had recently purchased a home, but you know we have brand new twin babies and an older girl. So there wasn't a whole lot of cash available and under assuming given that you're on scholarship at USC in a college student, you probably were broke right I. Mean I got my scholarship checks in on. Where you could get a job and make money you know that was that was what I did. So the the the original idea was it sounds like what you guys settled on was let's just import wine and and Kinda put a label on it was that the initial idea. So we had this grand vision we felt like what was really critically important was that. Incredibly passionate about wine yes. Students of wine but we need to learn the business of wine and you know we could get this license in California, a federal import license that was like fifteen hundred dollars. It was like our total life savings and we could import other people's winds and we started by reaching out to two families in New Zealand, and then we could we could learn the business and we went to them and basically said, you know don't put all your eggs and basket. We think California could be a great market to grow your brands and your winds and we negotiated really long payment term so he could bring in the wine. Sell it. Click the cash, pay the light bill and then pay them back and then. As a part of the process was every harvest. We come back and you guys teach us how to make wine. And you Andrea ahead of some connections in new. Zealand 'cause you're from there and your family, your family farmers. Yeah. So when you first approach these wineries in New Zealand and they agreed to send you wine. How did that work like how many? How many bottles of wine did you initially by and then where did you go to sell them? So yeah so it was crazy. It was at the time at felt like it was an insanely huge amount of wine. In it was a palette which is. Fifty Four I. Like the the minimum of what you can put on a boat. But for us, that was just an insane an internet case of wine. There's twelve bottles. So right it just felt like a huge defeat to be able to get these licenses because you know the the sale of alcohol states is highly regulated. And it's very strict and so just the process of obtaining a license to import seemed and felt like such a huge rigorous process and then and then to convince people. You know to entrust in US and give US product and then to get on a boat and then and then bring it into the port of Long Beach at the time, and then put it into a federally bonded warehouse because you can't just like bring that to your house has to go into a bonded warehouse. And then at the point like, wow. Okay it's here. So we gotta go sell it. You know and then surely googling you know top restaurants in L. A. and San Francisco and Getting some samples from the warehouse and putting them in a bag and and literally just walking into restaurants are a so tell me how you did that like would you go with the two of you go or would you go separately? So specifically for. So at the time Andrea still in Los Angeles I'm in New Orleans still UC. Yes. Nearly Twenty one at that point I think like. Maybe. Twenty one yeah, barely legal. So So what we did and thank God we were so optimistic and so naive and in a sense that's kind of what saved our butts from a huge failed miles. Was that you know we didn't. We didn't play by the rules because we didn't know what you were right and so and because we didn't play by the rules, we actually you know unknowing, they gave ourselves some tremendous access to really great accounts. Because we we had a whole lot of confidence in no business experience who are doing all the wrong things. But what we would do is we would I would sit up and running California and know goal like top ten you know highest rated restaurants in Los Angeles, and then I would just like like the most naive like person in the world pick up the phone. And I see who is the wind buyer or someone gay or the wind director or whatever was going on in that restaurant. You know just really stock them be really creepy, and then I would find that phone number for them, and then I would just call call and and I don't mean like a one time that I would keep calling until I got to that person and I don't even know what you're supposed to say in those situations but I would just say like, hi, this is Robin mcbryde i. Had it's amazing wine from New Zealand. I think you're GONNA love it. It's GonNa. Be The love like Lincoln we come in and you know knowing what I know now that's ridiculous. But at the time I, think people were just sort of set a back like are are you serious? You're calling me on the phone you know talking about this and I just was really really I, and so we got an appointment and there is a certain protocol where your distributor goes in and takes you in and you set a. Right. You know this whole thing. To do we and we just didn't know that that's what you're supposed to do but. They would see us because we were so persistent because we didn't know we were doing the wrong thing did Andrea did your like imagine if you have a French accent and you go and you talk about the French wines, you're selling people kind of just psychologically think of you as may be legit. Did your New Zealand accent may be kind of help you know? No. Okay. Because this is the thing with wine is that it? When you think about the great wine regions historically in the world, they're usually and what we call the old world, which is your upright usually France and very aristocratic very formal. There's a process there's guardrails around who does want. You. Come from a place where you just don't know what you don't know It's startling people I. Think because there I think in their mind they think. How dare you like the audacity you know don't you know how this works in this industry type of sort of approach and when you think about the wind business on the wine making side on the ownership side even within the hiring of distributors, it's mostly older men. So I think what was startling was in why my accent and help me was because I was so young. I was a woman and I was a woman of color. At that time the wine industry was was a very close knit hosed off industry. With. A lot of deep tradition that we we respect. But at the same time not a lot of innovation, not a lot of disruption and so we looked very foreign. In these situations. What was the first restaurant client who who said Okay we'll buy a couple bottles. I can cite one in San Francisco that was a very it was a it was a learning moment for us, but ultimately became probably are I You know really notable account anyway where I I was doing my my cold calling routine that I do. And the this particular person in this particular restaurant I called and. he he's sort of famous kind of psalm and winemaker that purchases the wind for this. Big Restaurant Group in California. And I called and he was completely incense. I mean he yelled he yelled at me he said, don't chew ever ever call me during service hours. Now, again, not knowing what the rules were I said Oh absolutely what exactly what time might that be you know so that I can tell you that. and. He just said you know before he said I don't know before you know two or three I said, okay. Absolutely. Call you tomorrow before two or three, and he was like he screamed at me and he hung up the phone and I was like, how did Google Mike? What is he talking about service hours? Is What does this mean? Oh that fully makes sense because a restaurant begins prepping to begin serving customers. Right. But we had absolutely no experience, right but whatever I mean, you know we don't. See. Many things as failure it was like, okay good. Now, we know. So going forward, we will never call these house during service hours and that ended up being a Sin San Francisco, the the main restaurants in San Francisco, and they ended up being our first, really large for us at the time restaurant account that had multiple locations. But how did you convince him to eventually buy your wine because our wind was amazing and we don't take no for an answer. So by the time that we called during non service hours and we? After I'm not sure how many temps it took the we ultimately were able to get in there and show him the why which we knew were amazing and that was luck. That was look. Yeah. Felt like we'd made it made. Here's a question right? Like now you run a wine list with like hundreds of winds. Right and you're a New Zealand wind competing with like probably rich people who are like in a by burgundies or whatever you know whatever it is. How do you at that point? How can you get the the Somali as to to? Encourage people to try your wine but this was a New Zealand. Sobbing block that I think was like twenty four dollars gladys. Expensive wine yes. Yes. I think at the time what we had an aside this was like pre two, thousand and eight and New Zealand seven plunk I think for the the world wine industry was this new kid on the block that just exploded. So thinking in terms of timing that was a star in our portfolio, and then we also had some really beautifully gorgeous wines from New Zealand, and so it was a really great time to be introducing people to. Something new. So really. It was to view like working the phones and cold calling and just hustling and probably hearing a lot of knows in did those knows ever make you feel bad or I mean or how how were you able to stay unflappable and to keep pushing forward to those knows I think it comes down to again sort of what drives us a little bit of DNA probably. Also that we might not be able to take credit for I'm not totally sure or maybe it's just the challenges of the backgrounds that we grew up in that. We're a little a little resilient. So I don't think we've ever interpreted anything that we've experienced as a failure because it's all part of a process of finding out what works and what doesn't work. We're always still learn. And I think also too it was our goal was to. Found a winery and our mission has always been to transform the wine industry a to lead, by example, most importantly to cultivate community that something that we saw that was like really lacking. Yeah. Did you. How undertake your cell that that Palette of wine that first shipment do remember I think it took us about six months but then within that six month period, there were so many learnings that then there after the reorders happened quicker in the south, ruislip quicker and presumably your expenses were pretty low because you just didn't have a physical office right and you were just kind of. A living modestly like both of you will. Pay Your mortgage and your. And your light bill and the rent and. Yeah. It sounds like initially because New Zealand Whites seventy blocks are like considered to be value wines. Obviously, there are premium ones but generally value wines, but it sounds like initially you were focused on the premium. Right some more high winds and newer servicing high end restaurants. INITIA- and the wine industry premium I know it's a little bit. Doesn't make a lot of sense, but premium is anything that's over thirteen dollars bottle. So for the most part most like New Zealand seven, you block sort of over that threshold. And then you know super premium I think. Over twenty dollars. Yeah. That's like ultra premium. But we definitely were in the higher end. Part of the business and we're attracted to that because that is sort of the geeky nature of US learning about wind intricacies and everything that comes with it. At the same time seeing very clearly the juxtaposition of all of this is an accessible to everybody. How do you democratize the wine experience because it just seems like when you philosophically like when you think about wine, it's you know it's it's the bond of nature and people and community that's been going on for like eight thousand years. And that communication at creates with food and humanity love and friendship. You know I feel like you know winus history in its in its culture and its optimism and a glass and everybody should have access to that. Not just a select few. Yeah and we felt like it was a problem you know for for us to solve. That wasn't being addressed anywhere else which was, how can we help more people experience wine and and a better way which I mean. At every level makes. Sense in including economic sense because you think about like these really expensive burgundies right from these Chateau's and in France and. You know people will buy a case of of their wind for you know they'll get on a list and they'll they'll. They'll get their allocation and they'll pay twelve hundred dollars for a case, and they'll go and sell each bottle for twelve hundred dollars. And those small winemakers who are producing small amounts of wind for very elite clients, they're not getting rich off the wine they're not reaching and they're reaching a tiny elite. Group of wine drinkers right I mean it makes infinitely more sense to reach a wider audience at a lower price point. Yes and that was that was I think we were paying very close attention to. The different. Aspects of the winemaking process that translate to quality and how could we? Cross these wines in a way in which by the end once it passes through importation distribution retailer once it gets the consumer is still really really high end. Wine and product that over delivers the quality, but isn't going to break the bank right and the goal eventually in your minds at least was one day, we are going to have our own. We're GONNA make our own wine or will you not quite there yet? Yeah, I mean that was the eventual goal, but it was foss tracked. By two thousand and eight. And so when the financial crisis happened, you know the global global economic financial crisis way had a couple of things going on there was A. Bumper harvest in New Zealand. So very, very large harvest that created this huge surplus of wine, all those fantastic restaurants that had those. The clientele with the large expense accounts they tried out. Yep and you know restaurants for the most part make a pretty good revenue off of their alcohol in their wine. So they stopped paying their bills and Robin. I got to the point where we just said, wow, this is really really hot trying to figure out how are we going to survive thus in came to the conclusion that if we were going to keep on doing this, we should do it for ourselves, and at this time, it was like now or never in this was a time that we should make the jump. Start, a wing company. Naturally, I love thinking hey. Let's just let's just use this opportunity this financial crisis economic crisis to do actually double down on our business and. And pivot when you say it sounds so crazy but the. Right Cycle we've got to do something. So we're not just going to sit and be overcome by this crisis that's going on we have to be strategic in some way, and so we felt lake for the amount of effort energy it was going to take to keep any business afloat right now it might as well be our for products. So, how were you going to do that? I? mean. Presumably, there's a glut of wine on the on the New Zealand in the market was the idea that you would kind of take manager that glut and. Buy some wine and then. Put Your label on it. Well we we had that problem from the beginning which as cash. So so for us, it was looking at strategic partnerships. So looking at this, this problem of there is an excess of New Zealand wine. Everybody at New Zealand wants to be in the US market. How could we pot with an already established wine company that had infrastructure had all the things that we couldn't afford to do and I could find a synergy in? Them being like the infrastructure us the wine and then us now having expertise not only to make the wine but also to import it distributed and sell and the US market, how did you find out who did find a partner with the company? Doesn't exists now but at the time there called the New Zealand Wine Company. And? In, two thousand nine rubber and made her first wind together under the Echo love brand this brand that you created with this winemaker yes. Yes. An interesting clarify you're going to have a a role in in sourcing the wine and then this company was going to bottle and distribute it. So like did you like did you go down to to New Zealand and sample a bunch of different wines that they were making or was it already made or did you how did you decide which one you wanted to? So pro like the four years prior rubber nye had been shopping ask skills. And learning how to make wine. So we were very particular. We're going back and forth to new. Zealand. So we were very particular in knowing exactly from a growing perspective what we wanted in in from a winemaking perspective. When we one of the final product to be in Mowbray we have the northern valley, the Wide Valley and then we have the southern belly with our today valley and the wow doubt is the older. Pot. Of Marlboro, and it's much warmer and the the operative L. in the south is a lot cooler and it's more exposed and as a result and the winds in the northern part of the region you get winds that are that have this more tropical flavor profile a lot of. Passion fruit a lot of goose berry and then also pizzas and also red grapefruit versus the Our Lady Valley is. Jalapeno. Tomato Stalk and Robert and I FAO felt very passionately about producing a wine that had a very tropical spectrum of flavor. And that's what we produced. So you went down there and you knew what the flavor profile was and did you literally like wine wine producers will literally tell the neared, pick the grapes now right now like I'm tasting this. Great. Please we want them right now the sugar levels and the grapes are perfect. Was it were you doing that at that point or not? In something like the most amazing thing. This is really really specific to seventy blonde grapes but putting seven year blunk grape and your mouth all the. Just in general when it comes to wine. Comes from the grape skin. And and putting this scraping your mouth and just tasting like the flavor and the skins gives you a vision of potentially of where it's GonNa go once you once you harvest once you pick once a fermentation process stotts you really don't have a lot of control. How do you have This is just a digression but how do you because when you are going? At, that time and you still doing when you when you're going to of inured, you're picking grapes in your popping in your mouth. First of all wine, grapes are really sweet right? The sugar content much much sweeter than table grapes, right because you need all that sugar to create the the alcohol. How do you know when it's the right our or day of the week to pick them how do you know 'cause it's gonNA taste different fields. Science take some grapes. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's chemistry. So it's not, it's not just like your palate and the magic. I wish I wish my mouth properly calculate bricks in the in the grapes but there's a way to to go out into to you know grab a Baggie full of grapes and take him back into the lab and measure the sugar content's to see where it's at right. So you partner with this is young one company and they bottle this wine and by the way, how much did you want to sell each bottle for? This is two thousand and two thousand nine. What was the idea was the price point you wanted to have was that sixteen? Between Fourteen and sixty nine. So not super inexpensive but before. and. How much wind did they did they? How many bottles cases did they end up producing and shipping to you? So our first, our first vintage I, think it was two thousand cases. It was nearly three thousand cases. Okay. Roman rubbings to keep keeper of the coin. Yeah, I'm the keeper of the books, but I think after the first year, it was about twelve twelve thousand cases, and at this point because it's now your thousand nine, you're in the really heat of the financial crisis and really an economy that's slowing down. were restaurants your target or now where you shifting to targeting retailers? Both. So so we were still knocking on doors. We were still going to you know restaurant accounts that survives and then we started to there's a lot more. Sort of neighborhood wine shops. Also. That were were coming around independent retailers what was an and how many employees did you have at that point in two thousand? To. Two. I mean me and her by two. Yeah. And then maybe some people like sort of working part time or on. Tiny operation you were. Still. Primarily in California in La San Francisco. Yes and just literally going to wine shops and bars and. Personally like pitching this way Yup and I think the biggest breakthrough at that time somehow somebody tipped us off. That at major corporations across the United States. Yes. and even within grocery, there was a department code supplier diversity. And sole function of the supplier diversity director was to identify women and minority owned businesses to try and help bring them into those grocery stores I. think it was through super value, right? Yeah. Super value was a large grocery chain in the middle of the country are gas and they had a supplier diversity director and we were like, what is what is Do. Yeah The person at the time was a man by the name of Michael. Byron. And I remember Robin I flew in. Minneapolis. For Super Valley, it was based I think it might have been like January. January was eleven below the and this is in like two, thousand, nine, two, thousand, ten, ten eleven and something like that would have been January two thousand lemon. And Hem. Really like giving us the lay of the land of like grocery retail like a pro education and then letting us know like he was he was there to help us understand that customer and how we could be successful and even better was he said, you know I'm going to help and I'm going to support you but we're else where else do you want to one? And I said I said. And he said he said, yeah, we got a whole network of us and like the next day he say now emails to target. Disney to all the major like Cobra. Fortune one hundred. Companies in. America like getting us a seat at the table. Well, you know grocery has always been really important to us because we felt like that swear women shop and that's where we wanted to be. and. So cost plus world market wanted to put our wines into their stores nationally that Ben. For the first time took US outside of California I. Mean I imagine this was a huge? like a huge breakthrough for the business but but. But I imagine it was still not. You still weren't like. We weren't rolling and. Yeah, you are rolling until. Yeah. Did you I mean it's interesting because between two thousand, nine and two thousand eleven right financial crisis a lot of businesses go under. But but I suspect that wine is one of those weird things that does okay. Right because. It's like it's a small thing that. Makes People feel a little bit better. It's a nice little luxury. Right is that is that what you saw exactly exactly as I don't WanNa say it's recession proof because the channels in which you operate differently play into when a recession hits for sure when it comes to the win in the street but I would say for the most part you see that can consumption lessons out and restaurants in what we call on premise accounts but more consumption happens home. This is I mean you kind of alluded to this earlier but The whole like wine making world and it's changed a lot of course but there is this kind of culture, right? It's still be Oh, overwhelmingly made and produced by men. Most those men are white and. Did you guys encounter You know along the way winemakers who were. Or who were I don't know bit condescending to you or did you find more winemakers who are actually generous and really wanted to share with? They knew I think there's there's different. Sit of sites says I feel like for the most part people on the winemaking side on the growing side are pretty jitter and welcoming in terms of time and information because at the end of the day as much control as you hoped to have mother earth like deck tech's what's going to happen and I definitely feel like there is a community really big community aspect to. The growing the winemaking side of things, right? Because a lot of wine a lot of wine doesn't winemakers don't grow their own grapes at grown by farmers who people have plots on those right in the their farmers in wine is this I feel like it's those you know kind of old school mentality just in terms of you are open with information and with assistance to your neighboring farm I think is a little bit different however when you move away from the agricultural side of it in the winemaking the side and you get more into the business side when you're dealing with. gatekeepers when you're dealing with wholesalers, distributors and retailers, it's very different than the the base of the making an agricultural side. Did you come across? Somebody who you you try to sell one two and was a terrible like was kind of snobby about it. There's a lot of really snobby people and why. I, don't think anyone's ever said to us at least not to our face at our wine was terrible and quite honestly i. Don't think anyone would have a recent too because we work hard to make sure that we don't make make terrible but I mean there's definitely you know depending on what part of the wine world's year end where you're definitely going to face some pretentiousness. You're definitely going to face all of the things that a lot of people really find intimidating and distasteful about wine and that's lessening I. Think you know over the years but it's been an unfortunate an unfortunate side effect of being in the wine industry. Yeah I'm wondering because I. Think I think like right around Twenty fifteen you guys entered into another partnership with Diario which I think it's either the biggest one of the biggest alcohol beverage companies in the world and and again like you're sourcing the grapes and you're blending the wine, but it's still distributed by Joshua right right and just using. This is one example of a partnership you did which makes sense because then you don't have to go out and raise a bunch of money and they've they're well capitalized and you can have a partnership but I mean. This is a tricky question. Okay because. The wine you're producing is your idea it comes from a your mind's it comes from your experience it comes from your palate. It's your. Intellectual property but I'm assuming that when you do a partnership, it doesn't work out that way is that right? It's it's quite complicated honestly, and you know there's a lot of ways that you can structure those kind of partnerships whether it's. A marketing and distribution relationship or production or what have you? But at the end of the day, no one is going to have the vision that that we have right I mean that's you know unique and specific generated by by us for us. So even in the best situation, there's still going to be some elements of where where a larger company in an entrepreneurial. Vision is is not going to align and look like rubber. We're too much like we're the most for a lot. You know like we don't sleep like this is our passion, and then you know then when you are partner with a company where you know. For a lot of people you know they. Aren't as passionate as they were sleeping on the weekends it was crazy. Business. And Big bureaucracies and yes and don't don't don't get US wrong obviously like it was it was a short partnership. We learned so much. You know we're so grateful that we had that experience but at the end of the day we're still we're still scrappy agile entrepreneurs with a very, very strong vision. Yeah. Who are like through our rose say colored lenses the way that we the ministry is very, very different if we were going to bridge the gender gap that happens in the wine industry and Make the industry more inclusive than we head to through the virus. because politically within these strategic partnerships, it was just too difficult right and. We had you realize that you know this is something that we simply need to do for ourselves. So what did you do like? How're you going to? Make that happen. So went to lunch one day and and this is sort of. At the time and which Robin I are really heavily talking and thinking about like our future and you know you should stay with the and then we went to lunch with spire and he said I get your vision. I see I see what you guys are trying to do. Have you guys ever considered spraying off on your own and creating a mcbride sisters completely lake MacBride Sisters Brands. And your answer was yes habit of course. Two Thousand and five and what store was aspire with by the way. So it's Kroger Kroger's the company. Yeah. He was kind of like I don't get it. He's like I. Don't get it. Why why are you guys making you know all these things and quite honestly it just you know we weren't quite sure how much brand equity there was putting our own name on the label, but your answer presumably was if I'm with you. Yes we WANNA do this, but we don't have money to do this. And so silly said absolutely you like, yes, we want to do it. I just want to add as as any proper entrepreneur. You say, yes, and then you go out any freak out any figure it out we figure out how to make it happen. When we come back in just a moment habet lunch with the guy from kroger turns into a life changing deal with a yearly impossible deadline stay with US guy rows and you're listening to how I built this from. NPR. Hey everyone just a quick thanks to our sponsor we transfer and it set of tools for transforming doubts into ideas. Collect is a mobile APP that helps you save Organiz and share inspiration paper is a digital notebook that captures your thinking. Paste is a presentation tool to make it easier to present your ideas and we transfer is a modern simple file transfer tool. The next time you doubt something let we transfers set of tools help move. Your ideas forward learn more at tools to move ideas dot com. This message comes from NPR sponsor access and opportunity a podcast from Morgan Stanley Morgan. Stanley's vice-chairman Carla Harris. A thirty year Wall Street veteran as she introduces listeners to the dynamic investors, entrepreneurs, policymakers, and others who are working to close the funding gap for entrepreneurs of color, listen and subscribe to access and opportunity with Carla Harris on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks also to TD AMERITRADE offering free education for investors, choose from articles, videos, webcasts, and in person events to take your trading knowledge to the next level visit. Td. AMERITRADE DOT com slash education. On the next episode of than a riot. The twenty year fight to clear the name of former. No limit rapper. Mac Fits. Me and my brother was close two years that he lost that some of the best years of his life he loves. ME. It hurts. Listen now to louder than a riot. New podcast from NPR news. and. One more thing the New York Times bestselling book how I built. This is now available. It's a great read and a great gift for anyone looking for ideas, inspiration wisdom, and encouragement to have the courage to put out an idea into the world. It's filled with tons of stories haven't heard about how some of the greatest entrepreneurs you know and respect started out at the very bottom checkout how I built this the book available wherever you buy your books. Welcome back to how I built this from NPR Kyros. So before the break, we heard how Robin and Andrea were about to end their partnership with the multinational company, the CEO and launched their own independent one company. And right around the same time, the sisters had a meeting with a buyer from Kroger who told them he wanted to stock his grocery shelves with me sisters. Wine. But the question was, could they do that? All by themselves. In this is September of two thousand sixteen right and he's talking about going on shelf in March of two, thousand seventeen. And at this point. You know we have no no significant I. Mean we're talking about to do this as multimillion dollars to be able to pull this off. How were you able to do that without going? I mean I'm I imagine that there may have been investors were approaching you saying we want to invest in your business. Am I am I? Right? We wish I mean you know you have to remember that in terms of. You know investors investments that you know black women are the least funded you know of all entrepreneurs. So there were still you know sort of a perception of some risk or some thirty black women aren't seen in this space as. You know having a history of being successful if at all even being present. So No, there weren't people beating down the door to invest in our company and and basically this by Kroger Says Kate, September of Twenty Sixteen viruses am march of two, thousand seventeen. We want this on our shelves. That's that's insane. Yeah. That means it needs to be they shipping to their locations. In Januar- in February, how much wind by the way was did you have to make for that order twenty, five thousand cases of wine that year for the first year and you didn't even have a brand yet correct cracks she you've got to get moving. You've got to get this wine made and bottled in a label designed and slapped on that and shipped to you. In. Six months. Yeah. Yeah. You sound very relaxed about this i. am I am really nervous I really nervous. Because we're on the other side of it now so But basically rubbing and I had to go out to a bunch of people and say trust us in new, Zealand and California wineries Yep all over and there was all going to be seventy luck. No no this is four varieties. This is seventy nine blank sparkling. Rosa. From New Zealand and then a Chardonnay and a red blend from central coast to California and just keep in mind that ninety nine percents of the like Tim Thousand wineries in the United. States. Less than five thousand cases a year. Wow so so but this is September. So this is like the end of the harvest right in cal- heartedly it brightened his harvest in California. The Harvest New Zealand is the other side of the calendar right our spring. And so you presumably you have to go to these wineries very quickly and find the the wind the blends, and make this wine and convince them to make this for you and fast. Yeah. So we had to we. So we had to find what we call components so we had to identify. Wind that was already made find these components that are quality standard balint up all of these winds the same time negotiating contracts with growers for the car, but the coming three vintages. And basically sank these people we don't have any money, but we promise it will pay you when we get paid and and quite honestly it was even more complex because we did some of them we did have to go to vineyards and and find grapes that were available, and then we also needed to find a facility where we could make our wines and we also needed to get licensed to do so. and. Then we also needed to get our when our our domestic winemaking team together we needed to get our compliance in our. Distribution team together, we had to get national determination ourselves like there was an. Annex, monce do all this I mean we had to do that really unlike. Ninety days sounds absolutely terrifying. Exciting. Exciting thrilling presumably your computer at this point like most of them won't that those crepes are spoken for most those wind facilities orgy, they've already got contracts have finessed. Had I mean you had of course some relationships already in? California. Did. You have to beg and plead with some of these people. Yeah. Absolutely. But at this point, we had a history we did have a name for ourselves. We had a track record of success in we did have the largest seller of wine at grocery in the united. States saying you know we want to bring in your product so that that went a long way. Did you make the deadline? Yeah, you do so. So by March of two, thousand, seventeen, you were shipping these were being shipped to crow was on the shelves we started shipping in January we started shipping January and February and it was on the shelf across the country by the beginning of March. I will say though I think I lost forty pounds or thirty thirty repairs. No literally I did. I lost some hair. I lost forty pounds but we made it happen and so did you how did you get the word out was had the word get out about the winds kroger? DID THEY DO DEMOS? They promote it? I think you know by this time all of our packaging even though it's very simple we know how must ninety nine percent of consumers label shop? You know and so we were really very like very. About building in these quality accused that we knew the F. The people didn't know anything about us. We knew our price point was right we knew that the packaging equality was right. We the varietals. We chose a very specific to popular varietals from the regions that we grew up. And that would. Carry us a really long way. What are the labels look like? We create a family crest, of course. Why not? The brightest crest is a combination premier league of of to animals at the top peacock. into. This peacock is representative of our father. because he definitely was Akaki gentlemen. And then the P. Caucus sitting on. The two litters MS, which is obviously for the McBride Sisters and then on either signs of MS or two lionesses in those lionesses, a representative of either of our mothers because they were fearless. They ran the pride out working out bringing home the Bacon you know taking care of the kids and so we made our family crest and. We created this crest in two thousand and five with the dream. Over we're going to have a winery one day and saw it wasn't just creighton seventeen. It was it was created back then and this is the first time you could use it on the bottles. Yeah. How the wind do at Kroger exceptionally. Wow. So in terms of being a new brand like into the stores, we were the number, the number, one new brand stores you know at the into twenty seventeen. Twenty eighteen also a turning point. I guess you were from whatever I've. You're invited to sponsor to be the wind sponsor for the essence festival off, which is a cultural and music festival New Orleans and You decided to produce a wine that is now one of your most famous winds called black girl magic. Yes. Tell story about about that idea how that came about. Yeah. So we got invited to host the opening party for essence has to fall in every year you have one million. A black woman descend on New Orleans over three day period and during the day. Empowerment sort of daytime conference at night to music festival with headliners like beyond say Janet Jackson and that year there was just so much black magic on on from women becoming judges to from a sports standpoint from you know winning awards an entertainment that that it seems really obvious that base weights at capture and honor only what was going on in the in the moment but paying homage to all of the. Women have paved the way for us to get to rare today yet felt like black romantic by the McBride sisters would be something Nice and festive sort of to capture the moment, and then we decided that we wanted to make a riesling that was the great reasonings of the world come from Germany, and also from the also a region in France and so we were trying to bring our new world expression. Of this in really elevating and creating a really super high quality, off drivers slang and. We went to essence festival and we were sitting up for the event and putting the winds out and it was just mind boggling. We've never in our lives had people react to own wine label? Little widen like we did it essence festival in Robin and I. Just looked at each other and we're like wall like, oh, probably should have made more. MADE MORE IN The Senate into a rain. And most importantly. I think unfortunately, the one industry has just really ignored. Black people when it comes to wine and so really feel like black romantic something a term obviously overnight on you know we're stewards of the spree ends. In your free time there's like a moment for black woman in which they can celebrate whether that's you know you gotTa Promotion. You had a baby became a judge, the become a ballerina like whatever it is by want to be able to be there. To celebrate with her with. Dislike. Beautiful High. Quality Wines. Yeah. You so you you're in retailers. and. You've got you finally got your own. Label and then. Two thousand twenty the year of crises and misery for so many of US pandemic hits and that's the first challenge of this year. Were you guys worried that your your business would would be. Absolutely we were very worried and we took really really quick measures everything that we could think of to secure our business to secure. To make sure that we. Didn't have to let go of staff we just reduce expenses we buckled down you know right away over the weekend because it was just two two unknown and did you see an instant drop in business and revenue? No no for us because grocery has always been such an important channel to us. Our business was an significantly affected as other wineries unfortunately that you know like five. Thousand cases or less. They're heavily dependent on reseller door and so one of the things that that rubber Ni- double down on the end of two thousand nineteen was really putting together our ecommerce platform really heavily investing into it with the goal strategically of slowly building it direct to consumer model. Yay. Telling through our website not knowing that there would be a pandemic you were just draft assuming. Assuming that this this'll be a small part of your. Business District, model. We we we thought that we were just laying the foundation that we were starting to put the work together to overtime about that sector of our business, and then of course, come the pandemic We were kind of to our team who has started that work. We were like guess what it's go time this is now the company's main focus. Also coincided with. Children. So with Robbins Dora who's WHO's the oldest? We always said if you want to join the family business that's contingent on, he needs to go out and work somewhere else and identify a weight that we have that we don't do well, and then come back and interview for a position and coming felt that void and the company greater well. And she got her degree and Communications and digital marketing and she went out and she works for. Digital marketing agencies for two or three years and then finally she said that she thinks she's ready because you know country I said, we were always like have something that you can add to the company. Let us know. So she felt she had enough expertise. And here you are in the midst of a crisis where digital marketing skills are pretty crucial pretty critical. And I can tell you we would, in term know we had like shopping cart you know in an online platform with some wine for sale and I didn't even really pay attention to the revenue I know that sounds full but you know maybe we'll do like five thousand dollars a week, I just you know it was such a small number and compare something minimal to our wholesale business and then she told us she's like I'm in a come in I'm going to put together a strategy and then and execute on the strategy in and she's like and you Auntie and you mommy. You know just need to like let me do my thing I. Think I'm going to be able to deliver the results and the return on investment to the company needs, and so you know, of course the second. Okay. I was like I doubt that we'll see. You know, and then really from the time from the first week that the plan was in place she took that revenue from five thousand to thirty thousand and I was like, well, I was like Whoa hold on. One, hundred thousand to two, hundred, thousand into and and and and this is like getting the word out through like. Instagram and facebook ads and digital ads and things like that. Exactly. Okay. So you've got destroyed to consumer model and we're all this covert pandemic you You are now finally. Reaching the customers that you felt were under served for so long and then. We get to. May June twenty twenty and massive demonstrations against racial injustice. In America, the biggest demonstrations in a generation in the united. States. In you are I mean you're black owned. winemakers. And on top of discontent with the challenges of the pandemic. Your now contending with the emotional challenges of watching this all over the country Yeah. It was I, think originally. It was like here we go again in feeling like exhausted and defeated, and in one of those moments where I think for myself, I'm the biggest optimist in the world. But really in that moment, just feeling like where do we go from here and I think I think we had this. Opportunity For a light to be Sean on. Black business owners with blackout Tuesday in one of the things Robert? An I had been working on since. January? Was At national grocery worth only all of the times were the only black owned company were times. You're the only woman owned company A- and One of the things that we're working on was you know we shouldn't be the only one. In so we started to kind of look around and think. About. How can we help other people get here as well And then we start to try and figure out like is there a is there less like as their list of black vintners. End. When we're talking about black veterans, obviously, we're talking about not just the United States and France in South Africa. In. Wherever in we couldn't really find a really good comprehensive list so we started putting together a list. And then that night that we found out about black Tuesday, you know we called everybody in the company and we said you know instead of just talking about ourselves tomorrow, let shine a light on. You know black this list that we have sixty, seven, sixty, seven blackfoot nerves that we could find in the world like let's publish this list and shine a light on our community and think at the time maybe we haven't. Thirty five thousand people on our instagram we have like thirty thousand likes on this post had been re shared like can't even tell you. How many times but most importantly. A large percentage of the vendors that we talked to were sold out of their pantages, it to showcase for us like the power of our community and I think for the first time. Besides the power is really with us in our community, the strength of community is so important. I'm right at this moment where we're talking. Your you cannot buy black magic is sold out. Mr. This responsible for making things happen in a timely fashion and are actually bottling more today and for the next couple of weeks. So we'll have some everyone very soon but it's his silence suggests that you saw spike in your business. Oh, significant significant and and my alone we gained eight thousand new points of distribution. You know these places where? You wouldn't expect. To See wind being salt indefinitely at the price point at which black romantic is it's not you know we have an awesome seven eleven and Texas that she was selling three thousand bottles every three days over the over the weekend for twenty four dollar bottle of wine from seven eleven. She owns a seven eleven it's insane I mean I know that an I know that you guys you know don't talk about your financials and and I totally respect that but is it fair to say you're selling many hundreds of thousands of cases of wine a year or you're on track to do that? That's fair. Yeah that's accurate how. I mean. You've you guys have been grinding at this for fifteen years? Yeah. Right I mean longer than that. But really for fifteen years it's been. A Long Journey. In your now, a significant player in the wine business in America. That's correct. I know that throughout this interview, there are moments reads it said yeah, we made it. You know were kind of joking about it a little bit but. You say that now do you feel comfortable saying that I think honestly the same Optimism that we started out with them. We had a of wine is very much. What drives us today at the same time? We feel that we have a long way to go you know I I think some people might give themselves a goal of a certain you know number of cases or a certain. Dollar re revenue but on Andrea and I we dream really beg and we always have is your ultimate goal to to have your own vineyards in your own grapes in your own production facility. Yes. Yup. One and that one of the things that we were were looking at at the beginning of this year and last year as but still having a place for people to come together like a tasting room. Yup. Absolutely to experience wine wine making vineyards, wine lifestyle culture all of those things you need to have a welcoming place forget people to come and spend that kind of time. So, that is part of the the hope and dream to find a plot of land where you can have some vineyards, a tasting room and a place where people can see how the winds made and also a training place as well. So if you're a if you're a woman person of color that's interested in the grit growing winemaking or on the ownership side of the. One industry this would be a place where you can come in. Feel welcome. Yeah. So it psych we would love to see more women as head winemakers. We would love to see more women that are the head of viticulture and grape growing, and then on the business of wine executive leadership at distributors making purchasing decisions at retailers, you know all throughout the business. So. Here's something that is going to happen in in my experience on the show interviewing. Hundreds of of. Different, stories. You have already been or you will be at some point approached by a big. Company that wants to buy you. Because you are. In a very, very desirable market and growing very fast and. You've got a really strong brand. Is there a world where you could see an exit like that? I can't call that. In this moment, I'm very attached to my name. I think I can never say Lake Norman Zebra me and Robin and said, here's a chick for five hundred, million dollars. We. Don't know what that feels. That could happen. You know I. I can't honestly sit here and say to you knowing that that's intergenerational wealth knowing just the basic principles of compounding interest at a very low interest rate of what that will do for the legacy of our children our grandchildren, our great great great, and also tropical. For the community that we want to support, you can't rule that out. I can't have it out but I think that we can probably safely say. I mean I think it's hard for us to envision one because our personal is not for sale. So that's a that's a little tricky, but also the brands that we create. Each of those brands has a very powerful. Message behind them and like Andrei don't that don't belong that don't belong to US necessarily we see ourselves as the stuarts the purpose behind them. So if any exit or any acquisition, you know there would have to be some very strange stringent agreements behind that. I don't know that we can really think of any large wine companies that will be. In a position to to acquire what we think those are worth that would be able to pull the mission behind each of those brands not saying that it would never would happen. But I would I would probably say it would be now or anytime soon. I can't stop thinking about. Your Dad and what he would think about all this. How you got to this place Because so much of the story is unbelievable. I mean you didn't know the other sister existed. And then. You know once you're both grown up you eventually meat and then you form this incredible bond. And now you've built this highly successful brand. I just have to imagine that that your dad if he was sitting here right now. He which speed blown away. Well quite quite honestly, and now I'm speaking as a sister who never actually got to know him at all but from what I know of him I, don't think that he would have expected anything less from US I think that he also dreamed very big. You know he came from a very, very small and I say small like five hundred people or something country town in Alabama moved himself to Hollywood and became a part of that scene and an actor and. Everything that was kind of wild going on in Hollywood in the seventies and eighties and You know my my my understanding of him and my interpretation of of him is that you know sky's the limit like you you can and should do you know whatever you set your mind sue. So in my mind and I've thought about that before my mind I. Think I. Don't think he'd be surprised I think that if he was in our lives, he would have expected that we've done at least what we've done. Yeah and I think I think the context of. Our family has family of. His generation you know. Camden Alabama. You know our grandparents, our aunties and uncles our father picked cotton thir- sharecroppers. And I know in their lifetime. Never thought that they would see a black president I know that. So like Robbins said I think you know he dreamed really big expected this of us, but I think the expectation also comes from all of our family. In terms of what they did during the sixties and the fifties and love the things that they fought four so that Robert and I do what we do today. They must be so proud of trust US anti enemy is very proud. You can't go to her house without her pulling out Zine and telling you let me tell you anybody who listens to knock challenge her about her nieces but it is very true in our you know our aunts and our data was the youngest of like twelve. I think. So it's a very, very long generations. You know they grew up in rural Alabama just outside of summer. So you know they did they walked the Edmund Pettus Bridge, they were involved in the civil You know demonstrations and movements, and we're not unaware of of how close we are. You know and how our roots are. So intertwined with you know all of this this history and that we're we're not far from where all of it started so. we're in we were in agriculture. Back in agriculture. Like the history of black people in America is grounded in in Agriculture Andre and I actually have a photo were able to go and visit the the plantation house where our great grandparents were enslaved and where our father was born in the back and in the small house in the back. And I think that you know like his journey in life to move on from a lot of that difficult history was for the purpose of on his children Andrea and I being able to do something like exactly what we're doing. How much of of this story and and the success of this business you attribute to just your hard work and your intelligence, and how much do you think has has to do with luck for St Robin. I was ten, ninety, nine percent of it is our hardworking intelligence. And then there's a small percentage that I think is what people might refer to as luck but I really think it is your ability to recognize opportunity and take advantage of it. Same thing I feel like it's It's hustle. It's hard work, but it's smart hard work. In it's being able to identify opportunities when when other people don't are maybe can't see those opportunities to see it. Yeah, and then I think in terms of luck I don't know if I believe in Luck I. Think I think you. You prepare yourself you're ready and then if if an opportunity presents itself, then you're the right person the right place of the right time. To stay ready. Yup Stay Ready. That's entree McBride John and her sister Robin mcbryde. By the way in addition to the McBride sisters, collection and Black Girl Magic Brand Robin Andrea have launched a third brand. It's a collection of four can't wines AROSA SAUVIGNON BLANC and a couple of spritzers. It's called Pecan and some of the money from sales goes back to a scholarship program for small businesses owned by black women. Robyn and Andre. Two of those winds are dedicated to their mothers and the other to. Their daughters. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcast. If you want to write to us or email addresses H. I., T. at NPR DOT org, you want to follow us on twitter at how I built this or at Cairo's and on instagram. It's at Guy Dot Roz. This episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner with music composed by routine Arab Louis. Thanks also to lose Metzger Derek GAELS JC. Julia Carney Neva grant and Jeff. Rodgers our intern is faira safari guys and you've been listening to how I built this. This is NPR. meet. White Male and This representative democracy, a new series about voting in America from NPR's through line listen now.
SE 2 EP 40 The Pascal Show 03/12/20 Podcast
"Pull it you wouldn't be building something to build says in five days loaning. Everybody passed gas. Yea Man man. Oh Man I hope you guys are having a fantastic eight thriving Thursday today. Today's Thursday another day above the ground. Y'All let me just say that again another day above the ground. Everybody okay. We're here. This is the Pascal show. We're here to hold your hands through the speakers through the cameras through the social media's a right I hope you guys are having a good one. I know last night. We got some not so great news on multiple levels last night. Damn all I gotta say is Jam. I am really upset to be really honest. There's so much that's going on in the world right now so much and we have to do everything we can to survive. We are now in that situation where it is it is time to pull up those bootstraps in just survive. We just need to get through. This guy is and I'm going to tell you this. I know coming in hot with all this stuff in regards to you. Know what. I'm talking about Hashtag Corona virus. Here okay but let me tell you something guys. We're going to get through this. We're going to be okay. There are a lot of people that are surviving. Yes there are a lot of people that are not surviving. But I'm telling you we will get through this. We will prevail a right. I'm refuse to loose and I know a lot of you guys out there. Feel the exact same way as I do. We refuse right FELLAS YEAR YUP hot ham high hand High Ham. I refused to lose. The hand is hot. The HAM is hot today so anyway. If you feel like you refused to lose hit that like button on our feed. You know what I'm saying common down below. Tell me refuse to lose. We are here today to feel positive. We're going to talk about these things. But we're GONNA fight through this stuff. Resilient WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS. We're not gonNa let something like this tear us down. I repeat we're not GonNa let this tear us down. I know we got some bad news from President. Trump president trump. Okay and I'm sorry. You had to be the bearer bed news but this is what's going on in the world all right right now. This is going on in our country as we speak. We have got to start playing smart everyone all right like I said last yes on the last show yesterday we gotta start playing smart but playing with respect to a right so as long as we abide by those rules. We're GONNA be okay. That's what I think but before we keep on going into all this because obviously we're GONNA be talking about this. We like I said we are going to be holding your hands. We are hugging you through the speakers right now through the lenses through our social. Media's we are here for you so before we get into all that goodness and all that badness to we got some fantastic people in the room we got Lucas in the booth. Look what's go- what's not guys. I want to try to keep it corona virus free for this but it's kind of a world light. Karuna light light up Thursday gloomy outside going to get some nice spring storms whether you are like storms or not kind of fitting time of the year Coppola Spring. Hopefully it's quiet storm. Nobody remember that guy. Quiet storm no never mind moving. I'M GONNA say no whatever whatever but do good doing good. Yesterday was pretty eventful for lots of reasons. I don't know if I should just dive into it right. I mean oh you mean The other stuff does it. Revolve the corona virus. Kind kind of like okay. This is like where were you when all this happened. Kinda feel like oh well hold that question because we could use that for the. Let's talk segment. We're definitely talk about that here. In a second okay. I don't mean to. I don't mean to stifle your your words but I don't want to lose or ruined all that good Combo you know what? I'm saying a lot of good Combo right there. I understand so. Let's hold that that's nothing that's how it is pretty typical day. You know I I took a nap. Oh Nice about it. I'm here. We're living well. Aren't we all that? We are all here today. Jackie buckets man today. Jackie Buck Deterred Guan. I just same as everybody else. Just making sure hands are washed and staying well in a woke up today and saw how heavy and dense fog. We have here in Saint Louis word and I was like Dang all that moisture in the air. Yup that can't be good. That's not good at all. What can I can. I say. So I'M GONNA ask them to everybody out there watching and listening and all that stuff am I. The only one that thought yesterday smelled funny. Yup just saying that out loud guys. I stepped outside and I was like sunburned metal out here and I was like building over here and I kept a draft of home towards Illinois. I still smell this smelled. It smelled like pesticide to me. It's I'd smell like up like it. Just it smelled like chemicals. Were were in the air. I smelled Bournemouth. That's smell. I think I'm not trying to be some conspiracy theorist here swear on God. I'm not trying to be like that. But yesterday smelled fun. Me In. There was a weird fog. That was over like a weird missed. When we were driving into the city there was a little. There was a weird missed that was going on and then my girl got back home from work and she said it smells really funny and I go. Do you know what you're right so went back outside on. My district is funny. What is that? Like most I- pesticide weird. What the heck is this we are. We being crop dusted. Maybe there was a massive fire at a plant in Illinois think mass no annoy ran yesterday morning for about it and I think that is why it was smell and okay thank you explain the Hayes and it can explain that could be as literatures right across the river when there could be but of course. I'm of course like anybody else. I'm paranoid time for a plant. Of course I wanNA live. You know what I mean. I want everyone to survive. And of course there's all kinds of conspiracy theories to drop out of the sky and literally speaking of the sky. It smelled funny outside and and then there was some weird mist in the air so I was wondering what that was all about. It's probably talk. I'm pretty sure I saw. That's private the reason why doesn't probably words dining is pretty bad for how people are incidence. No a lot of a lot of people acquire minds would like to know so no need to ask me how my day was I'll just say it anyway. Hey how was your day? Actually I was not saying that as a joke I was just GonNa go into it and I'll say this you know my my my day was was you know filled with research literally research. Yeah I mean I was looking up things like crazy you know me and my girl had been going ham sandwich on hot ham. We've been looking into some stuff we've been looking into some stuff so no no not at all if get his main. If you're GONNA travel you can't do international flights and you can't do flights to Europe right now period. So what's the point of trying to get a cheap ticket if you can't go to Europe Su I'm saying right and then I mean there's so many other things that we need to talk about. There's so many things that are going on. Things are things are being. Shut Down Things. Other neighbor other household names are contracting the diseases. The whole nine. I mean we will. We will get into all that stuff here very very shortly but of course you know my day. Was this filled with looking things up and and I went to the grocery store I went and got some stuff. Yes I got some teepee and yes. I got some paper towels. Four hundred rolls I and got some teepee and you know what I'm saying real talk because what's funny to me Nolan. Just said Montreal's is two hundred dollar flight to Montreal as two hundred dollars for flight so I did history. I bet you saw some deals but you want to risk it all Brett. Do you want to risk my people? Do you WANNA risk that. Maybe Canada to just get away from the corona virus. I get that but you're still going to be putting yourself in a canister filled with other people that are recycling air. It doesn't matter you can be dressed up. Head to toe and a has matsue looking like Naomi Campbell. And that's still ain't GonNa do a damn thing for you. That is just stupid. In fact everybody needs to go and look up this this interview. With Joe Rogan. He sat down with a specialist in infectious diseases. It's about two hours long. But if you watch it you'll learn some stuff seep into your brains and learn some stuff real quick before you start getting all savvy here going. Oh Yeah you know and let me. Just ooh an opportunity to travel f all that noise. You can't you're still going to get. It doesn't matter how hard you try like that but anyway there are some people that have had the swine flu and have gotten through it. And we're just fine the whole nine so I mean you know. There's there's ways to get. We are going to get through this. We're going to get through this but I've been doing a lot of research done a whole lot of stuff looking things up. I went to the grocery store to get some stuff because I had a feeling I just felt like pandemonium especially when I hear that president trump is going to be addressing the nation about everything. I just said you know what all right. Let me actually let me go to the grocery store before he makes this announcement. 'cause I don't know what to expect you see what I'm saying. I didn't know what to expect so I I thought he was going to be like Dat. You know what I mean like something like that and everyone rushing to the grocery stores and then pandemonium and all that stuff so I was like you know what. Let me let me get this. Let me go and do this stuff really quick so I can understand so I can sit down and watch this and just be prepared and say I don't. I didn't kill anybody to get a roll of toilet paper. You know what I mean so or I didn't have to almost get killed. You know what I mean right. So so that's what I did and then after that it was kind of like. Oh my dear God this is this is. This is the world that we live in right now. This is this is going down. You know in fact. This is my question to everybody out there. That's listening and watching right now. Please us a call at three one. Four eight zero zero eight zero eight. I would love to know. Are you starting to self quarantine yourself regardless regardless of the situation or are you trying to find ways to get out of work? Because I'd love I'd like to know like our people already starting to shut their doors and stay indoors or are or is everybody just getting out there and just you know what I mean dealing with life still hitting the gym. Still you know giving each other high fives and all that stuff. I just want to know in our you financially able to yes which which we will talk about here in a second force to. I would love to hear what your thoughts are if you guys are going. Hey I'm going to wait another week and see what happens or no. I'm I'm literally lockdown locking everything down and I started my own garden in my backyard. This is the reason why you know I was ready for this. Been Ready for this. So I'd love to hear what you think so coming down below and let me know what you think. That would really mean a lot because I know there's a lot of people that are concerned for short like me anyway. I digressed so we're GONNA get through this. We're GONNA be fine. Keep Hannes keep us. Those hand sanitizers. You know what I mean. Wash your hands be smart. Don't do anything dumb it. We're GONNA be okay as long as we do that right. Wash your hands stink link drink water and I see that Jack already shaved his beard off. He's like I'm not about that. Life to know touching your face but you know how hard it is to not touch your face you start thinking about the average human. The human a person touches their their face on average two to three thousand two thousand three thousand times a day. Can you believe that? And that's with sands or with beard. Just saying it's a lot a lot of face touching and I picked my nose a lot. I don't care how he was straight funky with y'all I pick my nose I get up all up in there. I'm just like you know what I'm saying. I'm trying to pick a winner all the time so I. I don't know digging for gold. Yeah because you know sometimes it just gets up in that you know what I mean this stuff a bat in the cave and you just gotTa get in there sometimes man. I'm skin keep a real. I don't care I'll keep it straight. Fuck y'all so anyway. We gotta go into a quick commercial break. Keep the comments rolling. We'll be right back. This is the Pascal show. What's up Yo you're on? Wgn Unites Twenty eight am and one. Oh six point nine. Fm Real talk for real saint. Louis yes welcome back to the Pascal show. We're going to get back into it here. Real quick you know. There's obviously there's a one big thing that's going on in the world right now so it is time for. Let's talk now. You've got to be in cookies this. Let's talk segment is brought to you by Albena? Don't be a drag snag. You a bag of those fantastically fiery red hot triplets. And they have a three one four variety box going on right now because you know in about two days. It'll be three one four day so go if you are a huge supporter of Saint Louis in the supporter of three one. Four go get yourself of variety box from Ovarian LLC DOT COM. Okay bunch of chips popcorn and a whole bunch of Venus Swag. Y'All all right. I'm going to throw this question over to Jackie Buck. But that's the question of the day so basically WanNa know with the pandemic upon us. Yes actually labeled a pandemic by who yes and it's in it's in Missouri and it's in Saint Louis. I know we have listeners. That are not here. But it's an thirty three plus states now though over fifteen or sixteen or seventeen hundred confirmed cases that more people being tested. The big thing is that. There's I was reading that. They said that more people will be affected financially. Then actually healthwise right so self quarantine feet away from work. Not Getting that paycheck. Most people don't have enough savings to handle a four hundred emergency let alone three thousand dollars tests. Are you financially like in a reading for pandemic right and I think I can answer for most people? They'll say no. I think a lot of you would say no but you know how the way the trump was talking in. His speech was saying that there will be some tax incentive type of cuts that people will be able to get. I don't get it. That's going to be enough You know there's got to be something bigger. Measure especially with the the stock markets that have gone into a bear market in the first time in eleven years. There's a an entire situation we're facing here now. The people that money is going to become a big concern for people. Yup and I guess that's the question. Okay let's throw it over to look. What do you think it's a quick? No I am not fair. Yeah I'm barely prepared for almost normal day. Yeah I can't imagine if I had to go through forty days yeah financially would have to go through if I had this disease or just in general. They don't have it. You have to save the state self quarantine for three weeks. I there's no way there's so many people have to go to work daily being to get that dime that they don't have savings they don't have investments they don't have anything that they need every dollar and penny that they make every day began because there is we always work we always use our money beyond our means where it's America we don't sit there and save money. Forget that know what I'm saying. We get it and then we spend it and then you know. We have credit credit cards. We put everything on credit. There's a lot of people who do that all day long and then next thing you know they gotta pay everything off through that as well. Something it's like you know. The whole living paycheck to paycheck is a real thing. So can I. Can I jump on this really quick? Yeah okay because here's the cause yes I I mean personally I can. I can survive for a little bit because I save you know personally I save but at the same time all right I got a little gripe to say about this whole situation that the the announcement that trump made yesterday in regards to small business loans the whole nine a right no matter what you do the matter these no matter the the loans that he saying he's giving us. It's still a loan so no matter. What if you get if you're a small business and you're going okay? I need this. I need this bank loan to help me get through the the next month or get through the next three months. Whatever might be. You still have to pay that back to that bank right so no matter. What if you're already in debt you're going into even more debt. So what's the point of having to do that? What's the point of doing that when you're gonNA find yourself at the end of it in a deeper hole in a deeper financial hole? Does that make that does? Is that helpful? Or is that something that's GonNa make it's just going to bury you and then next thing you know you're a slave to your own business you're a slave to your own debt. Which is what we're already. We all already. Are we all have you pending bills in things that we have to pay every single day so if you were to get this loan you'd be bury yourself into debt? There are other countries that are literally giving people who are who have contracted the Koran Corona virus certain amounts of money a week just so that they can survive not sitting there going. Oh we'll give you a loan so that your owed so that your own. Oh that bank money at the end of it. No they're literally going. Here's some money because I know you need to survive. And we need to keep the economy going if he does this kind of thing if it if it if he continues that the economy is just GonNa Crash Hord Andrew. Yang was being like I think that a universal basic income is a great idea. And maybe he'll start running again for president. Yeah baby and then the other thing is now. I'm GonNa hold that that thought I'm going to hold that thought for low bid later because I got I got other things. I got a bone to pick because I just think we're in a situation where we need to start the government. They them all right. They need to start looking at other ways to keep the economy rolling without destroying the people that are part of that economy. And what's going on right now. What he said on that thing yes. I'm glad he addressed the nation. I'm glad he finally said yes. This is really going down the whole nine. He finally said it. You know a few hours after. Who Finally said that? It's a pandemic he finally says fine. Let me get on here and talk about this thing. But instead of him saying hey. We are here to help you guys. We're going to get through this. We're going to be all right. He's turns this into an opportunity for for the for the for the banks to make money at the at the back end right. This is the stupidest movie in the world. People are not going to be able to leave their homes could be just weeks could be months. We don't know and then at when it's all over we still got an old the the the bank's money and it puts us in more debt or crushes credit and all that stuff. Come on Man. You need to take a better alternative than that man. That's just trash is speaking speech that he came out and gave. He didn't give any specifics. Either you just said they were going to do something. And now they pass a Congressman Congress supposed to go on recess next week so how how how fitting fitting it's like pass the buck. Yeah and shut it down right. We'll talk about it in a month and see what happens to talk about it later. We'll talk about later and I get it. I get it to a certain extent why he wants to say to one. Move and then see what happens. I get that but this move that he's doing right. Now is not the best move in my personal opinion. I think it's just gonNA crash the economy. I think it's going to make the economy. Worse is not GonNa make it any better. He's just trying to make the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. That's the way I see it. All of us are working so hard. We work so hard for every single penny that we make. And then now that all of us everybody from the trash man to the schoolteacher to the nurse all the people who are out here in the service industry are going to be without jobs gone. We're going to be locked up. You know what I'm saying like I don't know sorry it's frustrating to me that this is the situation that we're in you know that we as Americans we live in this society of and that's our fault. It's all off. All I mean we put this whole thing of like instead of honoring and value valuing the the the concept of saving dollar the concept of a penny saved is a penny earned is completely thrown out the window when it comes to us as Americans we look at it as soon as we get this money we throw it out soon as we get this money we gotta pay and I understand. There's other things I mean. I'm not sitting here saying that. All Americans do this but I'm just saying like there's a lot of Americans they'll sit there and go ooh i. I just saved three hundred dollars. I can finally go or I just got a paycheck. I'M GONNA to spend three hundred dollars to get this playstation because you already know that. I'm going to get this three hundred dollars back in two weeks when I get my next paycheck soon. I'm saying and then you just keep following trying to fill this financial hole this debt hole that you have but you're still going. I'll get to that little. Let me get this. Let me get this other toy. Let me get this other thing. We don't value the idea of saving a penny so yeah. I think we're screwed up. I mean I think a good portion of us are screwed. I think there's a lot of people to have saved money for a rainy day. Type of situation. You know maybe stuff that like a gramma stuffed it in the mattress right. You know what I'm saying is back yard buried in the backyard. We for a rainy day. The rainy days common. You see what I'm saying so It's very frustrating. Just acid rain. Yeah Yeah I mean I it so I keep thinking like. Now's the time for us when we get through this way. You know when we get through this outbreak we need to start reevaluating how we save our money or we gotta reevaluate how we spend our money. Because you know there's always that there's always that cable bill you really don't need to pay. There's always that does things that you go and buy that. You just really need but you by any way right. Now is the time that we need to start reevaluating well after this. Obviously because it's too late now but I feel like we're in the in the future. It's a matter of disfiguring being more frugal with your money. Because you never know this might happen again or this is my continued to happen. We gotta keep playing that in our heads which is sad and frustrating thing you know anyway we gotta go into a quick commercial break guys. Put that in your head real quick. You know what I'm saying any money. You got any type of thing that I would. Just start putting those things on the side as quickly as you possibly can are right. It's time to be frugal. You know fine frugal. You know what I'm saying. It's time to be that. Anyway we gotta go to a quick commercial break. We'll be right back. This is the Pascal. Show back we're keeping a real all day on nine twenty. Am and one. Oh six point nine. Fm THIS IS REAL. Talk Wgn you. Yes what welcome back. Y'All back to the Pascal show. I want to say first off that you guys for everyone. Who's tuning in being a part of it on facebook and on Youtube please go crush? That's subscribe button on our Youtube Channel on some real stuff on some real issue. I am working on trying to get to ten thousand subscribers. I am not joking. I know that's a really big number but I'm telling you I am trying to get this going. I'm trying to get people to subscribe and be a part of this movement. That's going on and I'll tell you this too. Even as this virus starts blasting through America even if I will still be doing my live shows. I'm just letting you know so crush that. Subscribe Button a right because we are going to get through this together. You feel me. We're GONNA get through this. We go be all right. I need that song we need to pull up that song. Yes you don't have to play right now but we are going to play that song and a little bit so definitely keep the comments rolling in all that subscribe to our Youtube Channel. And of course we have a facebook page as well with with all great stuff over there as well go hit that like button on that page. Facebook DOT com slash the pass cow show? That would really really mean a lot and we do have an ongoing question so be sure to give us a call at three one. Four eight zero zero eight zero eight. Let us know. Are you guys already self quarantining? Are you already doing that or are you starting to prepare for? I guess the inevitable on the unfortunate inevitable a right so common below. Let me know. Get think we're going to keep this show role. We got Tommy boy on the phone. What's Good Tommy boy? We're all GONNA die. Don't do that to me baby. That's a day we all doing today. We're still near we are here. Yeah I know him anybody but we all know what. Tomorrow's data's right new thirteen Fridays by tomorrow's Friday the thirteenth. Woo Hoo that's having. Don't say yeah. Don't even say that I ain't about that life. Yeah it's scary but boy there's so much with corona virus going on right now. It's almost hard to keep up with so much we got the NBA is suspended now yup no NBA Games for awhile. March madness is going to be only like what close personnel and Like family members in the in the stands until somebody gets tested positive. Yep Yeah that's right. Well we already have one of the of the NBA players. I think it's the Utah Jazz. One of the players from the Utah Jazz. If I'm correct thirty eight but for March madness is all NC double. Oh no sorry. I wasn't talking about NCAA. But I'm talking about just the NBA shutdown Rudy Rudy Gobert. Utah Jazz Right. Yeah that's right thank you. So did you speak because of that you know but but hold on but because of that. Nba At the whole Mba. Season has completely shut down because of him being contracted with the corona virus. Now were you gonNa say how they got a couple of days ago? That player ready. Go Bear He was kind of joking around about the corona virus. I guess us on the boat of deal he decided. To touch all the microphones. He touched every microphone that he could see like. It's not doing anything yesterday. Happened he so he did do that. Yeah I saw a video of it. I had news on in the background. While I'm on the phone looking up all this crazy stuff about corona virus this morning and I just saw a video. It was mute. It was on mute and saw dude like touching. That's him who does that. It was he touching. It was touching microphones and that was him for real and then yesterday got announced that same dues at got announced that he has survived. We got it because I got under fire for talking about that college thing and I was wrong. I don't WANNA get into under fire this about this. So can you look this up really quick just for a second and also just before we go into any more things with Tom? I do WanNa make a quick announcement or a quick correction from yesterday's show okay. So yesterday I did a conversation or a topic about the college at the University of Dayton Ohio. There was apparently in the news. What the media said was that there was a riot so a bunch of cops came out in a riot gear and shot some kids with like pepper balls all right because they said that these kids were writing in regards to University of Dayton shutting. Their doors and saying that the kids had to leave like a week before spring. Break Okay so when I put that out. That's what I found out on the news on the Internet. Okay so some of the students went onto the feed or went onto the The clip that we took out and winning on US and said no. We were just partying. We're celebrating the fact that we were getting out of school earlier than a week earlier than we were supposed to. We were just having a good time getting drunk doing day drinking but at night and so the cops came trying to get them out to to to leave and all these kids were just too busy. Good time getting drunk and getting blasted. That's what the real story was. So I just want to correct that real quick before we continue with our stories and with the news and everything. So it's insane that that's going down for sure even just right now. Real Quick Simone said on Youtube Simone said simply Simone said. My college is about to be on spring break but my professors already sending contingency plans to their departments so a lot of these schools like even wash you right now is shutting their doors they said. Friday is the last day of school and everyone needs to be out by Sunday. We're all GONNA go. I don't know the ongoing cheap flights go home. Get TAKE. A bus and travel everybody. If you if you can't do that your got your own two feet your better kick some rocks that one basically saying and it's like Dane for like if they're shutting down your dorms and they're shutting down the student apartments then wouldn't that also carry on to say that in hotels and other apartments just in general be shut down like I don't understand why they would force people to start leaving. Yeah in multiple schools. So now you're GonNa send all these people from all these places back to different places there are people out there that don't know what I'm saying like there's a lot of kids out there that literally are living just getting by. You know what? I'm saying out there in their schools wherever it might be wash you even Harvard. Shut their doors as well. Harvard shut their doors yesterday. They said the same thing. Y'All got to be out by Sunday. Everybody out vacate the premises now. That trump to say the international stuff you know as far as like flying to Europe. There's a lot of international students that him. The most brilliant minds are coming from all over the globe to go to the school where they're going to go where the hell they're going to go the streets when I'm saying so it's like you're kicking all these kids out and you're not even thinking about the the the the the ramifications of your decision. They just don't want to have the bad news at their place. They don't want to have the bad news or the responsibility of those kids sick in their on their campus. So they literally what it is. They don't have enough nurses to take care of everybody. Yeah that's going to be. I think one of the biggest things that as students had home from college for then think about now in grade schools and middle schools and high schools all circuit and called off. Now that's going to be affecting working parents real hard. Big Time Man Even though college stuff like I mean I I'm from my own mind. I think they're they're having the kids get out of there because if the grown buyers does take off in the dorm then the college is on the hook for like lawsuits and stuff like that if they were negligent and not closing down the dorms during a pandemic though you know managing the lawsuits that would happen people. Were you know bad and outbreak and one of the dorms? It'd be terrifying yeah So so simply. Simone just said not. All students got money to go home. International students can't afford to home and I just said to her on some real stuff. Even the international students can't even leave. They have to be gone tomorrow by Friday. They gotta be gone or they're stuck here in America for thirty days if if they live in Europe if they're from Europe okay then she said don't get me started on the graduation feel bad for the seniors. Absolutely that's terrible. Lot of these kids are going to be just cut off terrible everybody but at the same time everyone's getting cut off pretty much to certain extent but then it's like well what's going to happen if if all schools get shut down. Think about this if all schools get shut down a lot of these nurses are mothers okay. Ladies Nurses are female a lot. Nurses are mothers. Allow these nurses have children? That are still the still need to go to school. That need to be watched if they're not going to school so if those nurses don't have babies decant have babysitters. So what are we GONNA do? We're GONNA be test. Takes a community to raise a family right. Go stay here neighbors right. Yeah and I'll never see you for like three months. All those extra old baby boomers that don't have any more kids around the house. Now you can have. The neighbors could stay over as long as that. Kid DOESN'T CONTRACT CORONA VIRUS BECAUSE IF GRANDMOTHER GETS THAT CORONA VIRUSES RAP son. It's a rent anyway. Tom Sorry brother what else is going on in the world. I am so sorry. Oh no no worries. I mean that that is pretty much. What's going on in the world right now? We haven't even talked about the fact that Tom Hanks and read a Wilson. Have the virus. Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson you Rita Wilson real life. Yeah we read it right. It wasn't have contracted it and they but but they're not in America there in Australia. The Australian Elvis Presley movie where? I'm going to play colonel. Tom Parker but I guess that's going to be on I for a bit. And obviously Oh you. Virus couldn't have picked a more beloved person to infect our first celebrity disease. Yeah it's just a it's but anyway I hope he does well. It's really sad but he said I'm trying to look at what he said here. Real quick well he says. The medical officials have protocols that must be followed we hanks we'll be tested observed. An isolated for as long as public health and safety requires man. I mean you know my thoughts go out to him to you know what I mean. Of course he is someone we all love and care for but apparently his wife was having symptoms of just feeling weak and tired. Cold sweats the whole nine. And that's when he was like all right. I'm we gotta go and get tested and find out what's going on only to find out that they both contracted the corona virus. So yeah. They're doing exactly what they need to do. In regards to staying away from everybody self court self quarantining themselves and Yeah it's it's sad. It's really really sad. It's a sad moment for chef. We you know we love him you know. Oh for sure love him. We all love him so yeah now the other thing is. I know that there's a lot of people that are trying to understand a little bit more about this corona virus and yes from my understanding it starts off like a cold. Then you start getting a cough that it basically you think you're fine but then it hits another wave it's like a second wave but then you start getting flu lights like symptoms all right so if you're in a room with somebody who is sick. Coughing sneezing the whole nine. Unfortunately those people better not be offended if you leave the room but it says there also is a says it has a twelve foot like twelve foot radius type of reach in the air in the air so if somebody sneezes and you're in the room there's a good possibility you could contract. It lasts for about three to four days on metal surfaces. So sanitized sanitize sanitized sanitized. But it is like you have symptoms of the flu except this flu. It's hard freaking core so you get the flu. Then you get pneumonia. The pneumonia is the part. That really gets everybody wreck. So you gotta get through the pneumonia part. Yeah so you know in a Shaniqua just asked what about our clothes. You know. That's a very good question about clothing. I don't know that part I would just say I saw something about cloth can survive five to twelve hours on certain types of cloth even longer on metal man so Carey Carey that you know necklace with you and Hand sanitizer glove on and like I said there's some people out there that are running around with the masks and gloves all that and apparently that's ridiculous it's kind of like it's too little keeping keeping keeping everything on you. It's keeping every. Yeah I hear hydrate because I stays up on your upper respiratory. Yeah and if you can keep it there you're good when it goes low respiratory when it's getting in your lungs and causing ammonia and stuff exactly so we will see. I drank drinks little sips every fifteen twenty minutes because if it's at the back of your throat that's where it starts to thrive when you swallow in the bacteria goes down your stomach. The stomach exit will kill it. Yeah so stay hydrated. Wash your hands stay hydrated. Wash Dame Hands Yo. This wash hands plays smart. Wash hands drink plenty of fluids. Drink them fluids. I'm telling you drink drink drink drink. Drink this Hasso stories out here. That are insane where there are people in Iraq that are dying from alcohol poisoning as well because they think that. Oh if I drink. Alcohol consumed the alcohol. It'll kill anything that's inside of me. You know like alcohol kills germs but they are manufacturing their own alcohol their own like moonshine but they're making it so strong that people are dying from it day. There are people that are in. That's the other thing. They say that the numbers are like three thousand and such people that have died in China. But actually that's not entirely true. There are much more people that have died in China from the corona virus. But they're not letting us have that information they're hiding those numbers from us. All there are videos consistent videos out there that are leaking every day now of people that are out out in public collapsing. Yeah falling to the ground. There's reports of people who are getting the corona virus in dying within hours within hours. Like this is some real stuff guys we need. We need to be very safe with ourselves. And I'm not here to try to like throw out conspiracy theories. I'm not here for that trash. I ain't here for that. I'm here to be like Yoga's this is going on in the world this is. What's going down this footage everywhere? You just look all you have to do is type in in search engine in. Its all their look up the facts and find out what's going on but most importantly start taking care of yourselves like I said. Wash your hands like we've been saying wash your hands stay hydrated all right now. They're saying that it's only seventy the ages like the elderly now. The sign entirely true either thirty late thirties. Early Forty Ish. People that are getting contracted are dying from this as well but they're not giving you those statistics either so I'm saying so. We really need to start looking into the ourselves and start being like this is the time to be selfish guys all right selfish for our health all right. We gotta go to a quick commercial break. We'll be right back. Stay healthy for the next few minutes. I'll be right back. This is the Pascal show by. This is real talk from Real Saint Louis streaming live are real talk. Wgn Dot Com yes. Welcome back to the Pascal. Show thank you guys so much for tuning in. It really means a lot guys. I know that some people out there that are concerned about what's going on in the world right now because a lot of things are going on right now. A lot of things are going on in the world. You know. It's madness madness right now guys. But we're here to fight through this. We're going to continue to keep fighting through this. I know there's a lot of people out there. I understand that there's some celebrities in sons of celebrities that have come out with some videos of responding to things in regards to the in regards to the corona virus and all that and Yeah man I mean you know. Let's just go into some some more news thing. So I know that Chet Hanks just came out with a video posted something talk to his mom and dad and said that they are feeling okay and they're not too concerned they're just going through all the necessary precautions so hopefully you know they get through it easing. It's to be one of those things where just be time. We'll tell they made. That's that's the thing with this right. Started out feeling okay and then very rapidly can change right so they said that most people you know five to twelve days when they see the worst yeah they started but there's an incubation period up to three weeks and it's three weeks of just sitting there doing like three weeks of the sitting there you know what I'm saying or is Hank's would say you know what I'm saying. Hey and what John. Sorry what a Gwan homes and he does a better than me Damn Damn. I saw some different news out there. Oh we still have Tommy with us. No okay I saw some different news up there amongst all this stuff. Somebody tried to pass off the side. Robinson from Duck Dynasty was debt. Somebody tried to make clear. Fake News thing posted up saying that he he was found dead and he's not but you know it. It's I was waiting for somebody to start spreading rumors about somebody dying from the Corona Virus That it wasn't true and I think there's been a couple of other celebrities like Daniel Radcliffe He shuts down the rumor that he tested. Positive for corona virus of. There's GonNa be a variety of people that are going to start saying that other people have it Just to cause caused some cosmic. Oh of course yeah the. There's going to be plenty of people that are going to be trying to stir the pot as much as they can because they got nothing better to do. You know what I'm saying next thing you know they're gonNA say Betty White is dead. Watch again you know what I'm saying. Like so never his way. Just you wait. You know what I'm saying. Yeah you know I mean. We'll be of course even if even if we end up being quarantined if we all have to self quarantine ourselves and stuff even if it's three weeks still be doing I'll still be streaming at least I'll still be streaming at least every single day. Take precautions of course but you know. I can still be cautious in my own crib threat. You know if I'm sitting there Chilin Mayes. We'll do something you know what I mean. Oh that's funny. Simone just said simply simone just said they had betty white trending last night and we were scared. Yeah that's hilarious. Yeah the Internet is Hella Messy. So don't believe everything you see on the Internet Limited. Say That because I know for a fact. There's a lot of things that are. I'm sure trending Hella hard right now. That are not even true. Yeah you know what I mean so look up the facts and make sure that the websites are not the onion. You know what? I'm sayin' threat. Just make sure that the the websites that you look in those things up or actually for real for real you know. 'cause there's a lot of people that think. Oh if I just read something on some blog and they think oh if I just do this thing. I'll be fine. Oh if I manufacture my own hand sanitizer. That's the other thing. There are people who are trying to make their own hand sanitizer. That is so strong. That is actually burning skin. You know that happened a seven eleven in California yup so be shade down. Be careful out there. You know what I'm saying. Just be careful up there guys. We ain't about this life we in about this life. You know. If you're going to make hand sanitizer are tested on something else before he tested on yourself right just to make sure you've got the right balance and the right measurements because you don't WanNa have bones for fingers. You know what I'm saying. Just be smart with this stuff. Guys I mean I know that people are desperate and desperate times. Come with come with desperate measures and all that but BE SMART. When you're being desperate you filming. That's all now. You got people like Naomi Campbell. Which I talked about earlier. Who ARE DRESSING UP IN. Full has matt suits to the nine. I mean literally goggles gloves. Face mask the whole nine. Just she can travel. And that's just some people man people stupid sometimes man. That's some extra stuff. So overcautious I did like your idea about. How does she go to bathroom? How's it going to go to the bathroom with that on during the flight? He's gotta you gotta get an undue the whole thing while you're plane. Yeah in that little tiny bathroom. Oh Dear God you just gotTa hold it. You just gotTa hold it in for as long as you can man for. Deer Loyd is holding in hell extra hell hell extra and it's not gonNA save you GonNa save you. You know what I mean. Like especially like his whole body is covered but then like her neck was exposed and like unbelievable. And it's but I I did look at thing about Rudy Ghobeire over. Yeah Yeah let's see your video about it. He finished up interview and he joked that he wasn't going to get the krona virus and got up before he walked away comes back. And there's still some reporters in the room. And he catches all the microphones and equipment on the table with his hands. And then two days later he tests positive for grown avars. Okay update to that. Okay go ahead. Twenty minutes. Ago is teammate Donovan. Mitchell was announced that he is corona virus. Now J. on if he hasn't everybody in the team's GonNa have because he was in the locker rooms and touching all the handles on the doors and the thing is this happened. This is coming out before days after he touched. All the microphones have mercy. Here's the days where the people that have gone in there and been in that room all these reporters. They're going to all these places and they go to the next place and then they go to the next place and then the next player right and then the carrying that thing round and you know what I mean. Probably not cleaning their equipment. No Yeah Definitely. Not Definitely not. Yeah Oh my dear God you know. That's the thing that I don't think people people who really think about. Oh I wash my hands. Okay well lifetime your front door. Wipe down here handles to your your cabinet swept down your kitchen sink. Candle like your foster handle legged. Wipe down stuff that you touch all the time now. Now's the time to be a HYPOCHONDRIAC. This is the time to be that absolutely. Absolutely what what what blows my mind. Is that in light of everything that's going on. Who Does that? You know what I'm saying like in light of everything. What was his name again? I forgot Mayor Rudy going. When you have your your president who your countries saying that. Everything's GonNa be alright and then it's not that big of a deal in that we have it under control here but nobody's untouchable. He should act like he's untouchable and make a joke like that do that. I mean I get that. He was making a joke and just probably use like what cheers me getting in her but at the same time like you don't do that man. Karma and that's one of the things that are like if they can they can link him to it and if he did things after he figured out that he was not feeling well like they find them. Do they do something I mean. Yeah any luck you WANNA see punishments for people that are stupid. I mean he can't get punished for something like that. I mean he's he's being stupid you know he's being he might. You might get stupid. He's already getting a lot of heat. Man I just. I can't wrap my mind around because in my head. I'm already so paranoid that if I was being interviewed about something like that I would be. I have my hands in my pockets. We'll talk it'd be like or just like this like okay. We're going to do this interview. I ain't touching not nothing on this table skype in. Yeah let me facetime. You real quick. Yo You guys guys. Do you know what I'm saying? Let's do a google hangout. You Man I ain't about me now about that. Sorry now I ain't cool with it but now the NBA is completely shutting. Their doors for the entire for the entire season is not the entire season until they figure out. What's Oh I thought. The whole season was shutdown knitter suspending it for the time being reading right now. They're trying to maybe played in April starting to get an April or restricted the playoffs or just move everything back a month but there's kind of wait-and-see mode the NBA is suspended for the entire season. Like I said for the entire Season Watch just watch. I'm sorry just watch. Just watch the. Mls says that they canceled. We're not cancelled. Suspended their season two. They suspended their entire season. Saint Louis shut down all the saint. Patrick's Day parades saint. Louis Ireland already. Did it so all their stuff is is completely done. I'm SURPRI- I won't be surprised if Chicago shuts the things that Boston will definitely everything will be shut down because I mean so. You won't see any rivers or canals. Being dyed green and time soon be we are. We are chilling. This morning I guess last night. Newark called off their Saint Patrick's Day parade and it's been two hundred almost two hundred sixty years it's been going on and has never shut down in that crazed. Oh and then also the other thing is oh okay. Simply Simone's is said they can canceled St Patty's parade in Atlanta this morning as well. Yeah but also. They're also saying that. Try not to be in places where there's well they're trying to. They're trying to not have gatherings of up to two hundred two hundred fifty people plus so I can see why they're doing this to try to make sure that there's no contamination no cross pollination if you will right. I mean of of this stuff so so crazy man. This is nuts moving nuts. It's it's moving fast to it's moving fast and and the funny thing is is like I said earlier in the show it earlier this last hour I said everyone needs to go and check out and by the way maybe we can pull up the get the link on our facebook and youtube page. Please you guys have got to go. Check out the Joe Rogan interview with that guy. Infectious disease specialist. I'm telling you watch it. You'll learn something because there's a lot of things that we're all just hearing theorizing. This guy is telling you the facts Jack. I wasn't meaning Jack. Just the facts Jack. Okay just the facts and it's very good to hear it's very good information no so that it seems like it's just knocking on our door. You know what I mean right there on our front door corona viruses. Not going door. It'll be waiting for you know nobody remember that. Don't know one time and asked me. Tv showed a TV show from way back in the day. Three's company to know now. Wow Yeah you're you're telling you the chances you like nine ten ninety nine percent chance that if he asked me if I remember this reference from this movie or the TV show good chance. I'M B. I watched a lot of nick at Nite as a kid. That's all this vessel all this but yes you know what's GonNa Cause more for this corona virus thing Allergy seasons coming up allergy season is coming up this around this time freaking out. This is usually the time you know what I mean. I'm a person that gets allergies. It's worth a couple of weeks away. Oh okay it's usually when spring like you start. Seeing the trees are blooming. People Start Mowing the grass. And all of a sudden everything's poof in the air and then sniffing now now there's also other things like Riverdale the show Riverdale Riverdale this show Riverdale has paused production in Vancouver because someone in the cast or crew has tested positive for corona viruses. Well Yeah Man Corona virus coming to get you. I swear I need to get a South Park done anything with current events. Wow that's funny that you say that they're not running right now. There's three seasons fall. This'll be perfect for them. They'll probably have something man anyway. Well I'm still gathering some more information I GOTTA. I gotTa grab some information really quick. We gotta go into a quick commercial break. I got some more information here but I gotta read this stuff so I'm not sitting here. I gotta come correct you know what I'm saying. I got crucified yesterday. And I don't want to do anything or say anything that is wrong. We'll be right back. This is the Pascal show back. What's up Yo you're on? Wgn Nine Twenty am and one. Oh six point nine. Fm Real talk for real saint. Louis yes welcome welcome back. Y'All thank you guys so much for tuning in to the scale show yes anyway. Woo Yet specs Shaniqua. Yes Saint Louis. I mean sorry Saturday. Night live is going to go in. I'm sure this weekend. You never know they might even shut their doors to you. Know they might just do a show without an audience. I think I saw that. They're doing something and somebody else. Another some daily night's show that have announced that they're not doing fans. I want to say. Well there's also like the good morning show. Good Morning America. Show the Today Show. All those are not doing what I saw is not doing fans. I wouldn't be surprised although all those shows. I think I would assume all those shows would be shutting down for sure you know man. It's crazy it's crazy. It's crazy what what's how everything's going down you know. The dominoes fell a hard yesterday. Like yesterday was very eventful. Extremely eventful it was just like one thing after another after another and I don't blame everybody. I mean you know everybody in the everybody. Momma needs to be safe and keep out of harm's way you know and it just keeps getting worse keeps on getting bad you know there are people who are going. Ham Sandwich. There's lines out of COSCO's because people are just trying to get toilet paper toilet paper you know but this is what we're living in right now. This is how we're living there is so much there is so much stuff going on. People are literally this Krahn viruses. Really just kicking everybody's ass. I mean that's literally what it is. It's it's such a shame. It is such a shame man just thinking how quickly agreed to. Yeah and I think that's. Tom Caught him again patch. That's him. Tommy we got Tommy on the phone. He's back in full. I'm sorry man. We just started going into that whole conversation and of all the stuff the craziness that's been going down and all you know. Let's continue with the story. You know what I'm saying. 'cause I mean there's a lot as we already know going on a lot of people are you know getting confirmed with the virus and so on and so forth so it's it's It's a scary time man. It's definitely stereotyping. But you know I mean again I mean it. It has a much higher mortality rate than the flu. But it's still I think what six percent in Italy and I don't know I think kind of were going down right if it's insane but it was going on all right in that knowledge right other news going on today we had A. US Women's soccer team Had A little Ahead anthem protests of their own. What were their match with Japan yesterday? Yeah it They weren't protesting against the anthem or against the United States. They were protesting against the US. Soccer Federation women seem as they engage in kind of an ongoing dispute with the US Soccer Federation. They're to get equal pay to the then socrates. Us Men's soccer team. And you know. I think they have a pretty good point. You know seeing as how they keep winning gold medals in World Cup and are outperforming the bench team when it comes to winning. I mean I think a couple of clemens soccer players on the US. Linda's team. I can't name one and you name a player on the soccer team. No palay going. I got one David Beckham. I'm lost I'm lost. I'm lost. Yeah but they're they're trying to get equal pay. So what they did. Was they They turned their jerseys inside out. So that if the. Us Soccer Federation Their logo would be seen on it. But the four stars that go across representing the four Whoa cups today. Where across across? They're really no. Yeah what what had happened was earlier in the week. I mean this has been going on forever but their lawyers. Us Soccer Federation's lawyer last week. They're being sued and equal pay case They said that the women the Women's team did not is not as physically demanding as to be on the women's team is the men's team and that it's you know it's a man's of doing each. You're totally different. The men I guess prepare more at are better skills and therefore deserve more pay and even even ahead of the. Us Soccer Federation said. Our legal team was way out of bounds. And saying that we treat everyone with respect to that sort of thing but it's gotten ugly. Yeah I'm interested to see what happens. I mean given the fact that everything's being shut down right now Since the you know certain seasons are getting suspended right now and all that. I wonder how long how that's GonNa stand out with everything that's going on in regards to the virus in you know this this pandemic that's happening right now across the globe. You know if you're gonNA matter here in the next week even you know what I'm saying right some. That'll be nicer. If that sort it out you know obviously quite a ways to go before the two sides come together it sounds like but I. I don't see why they don't take feast as much as the men's soccer team far ambassadors. Go for the sport I mean. Yeah no kidding yeah. They deserve more money but anyway other news Harvey Weinstein yesterday with ten to twenty three years in prison. Yeah it's been sexual assault good good so good. That's what I think. Yeah I think you're in the majority there and I agree with you. Good that he's going to jail and he he's facing twenty three years in prison Which is obviously more than the five years his legal team at Ashworth lightly less than I think the twenty seven or twenty nine years prosecutors ask for but either way he's he's an old man that's probably a life sentence for him anyway. Bryant and he'd say anything extra his extradition to California to fake Rape and sexual assault charges there while the cells these not out of the woods. Yeah this it's more precise good pretty nuts man and I'm interested to see what what comes a bit. You know what I mean with with everything you know it is. He is getting exactly what he deserves. Yup He. I don't think he's getting enough of what he deserves. They should they should have just hit. The mandate should have put the pedal to the metal. You know what I mean. They should've just floored that thing. And just said Hey life by twenty. Three years is still life for him. I mean let's be real you know. He's he's pretty riddled up with whatever's going on with him physically unless that's Larmer you know what I'm saying unless that's common kicking his but you know what I mean. I was thinking more time in the hospital than he has been imprisoned. Talk but we got one more one more. We got a few more so we got just two more minutes. So we'll give me one more real quick. Yes we'll I've got this one. There's a New Bar that's going to be opening and the Grove later this year. That is also like dog parks. Dog Park Far Hybrid they have one in Kansas City. Apparently is the big thing. They have a large enclosed area. Where dogs being around authors each while their owners I guess get drunk and then they have a large outdoor area where people can let their dogs from around and I guess drink? You're out there as well. You can go and You Know Take Your Dog Park and watch your dog attack another dog while drunk and and drunkenly try and pull your dog off the on my own. I mean sounds like a great. You know if dr but I could see this being dangerous right. Oh my God that sounds nuts and you know the people come up with anything right but anyway we gotta go to a quick very very quick commercial break. We'll be back in one minute. We Got Royce Recording Artists Royce in the house and we got a phone call from a friend of ours Nolan. So we'll be right back. This is the Pascal show by keeping a real all day on nine twenty. Am and one zero six point nine. Fm. This is real talk. Wgn You yes. Welcome back to the Pascal. Show anyway you got so much for tuning in by the way we do have a podcast so if you enjoy this year and join your time and you go. Hey why your sanitizing your car sanitizing your house doing all that good stuff and you're going. Hey you know I miss. I miss having a good time. I missed the Pascal show. You can find all major podcast dreams so if you go spotify Google play. I tunes podcast. The whole nine type in the past show and you'll hear this beautiful velvety voice of mine all day erdei anyway. So why are you fighting off? Fending off the covy. Id or whatever the whatever it's called cove in nineteen whatever you WANNA call it you can give type in the Pascal show podcast and you can hear. Us laugh as you're fending off the evil doers as a Bush. Junior would say right. Anyway we got. We got Nolan Right. We Got Nolan on the phone Nolan. Man What's good my Bra. Del Sur. Man I've been very good working my butt off trying to stay clean. I guess is the ongoing theme. Now you know what I'm saying. So extracted trying to stay corona light you filming their their light merchants called premier but yeah man so let me tell me because I know that you were 'cause instinct Louis. There was a a girl that came back from Italy. She was she contracted the virus and her dad and her sister when off to a daddy daughter. Dance at the Ritz Carlton and of course they were kind of like possibly contract. They possibly had contracted the corona virus. And if I'm correct you were supposed go and bartend at that particular event correct. Yes yes so right. Now the Ritz. Carlton is under a huge renovation. Can Be Awesome when it's done but this is one of those things that kind of POPs up. Nobody expects to have happened to force and you know I was supposed to work Saturday. They had a daughter event For was ability and yeah I'm bartender right. Now for the banquets and there was sort of a happenstance where ended up popping up on the list underneath another bartender. Worse than you already over. But because of that reason they cancelled my participation in the events because I guess other people eating up to the dance had already decided not to come and so I said well that's fine I. I guess I won't work Saturday and I get text messages on Sundays. Saying oh you really dodged. The bullet known rank So come to find out. You know the so the young lady. She was studying abroad in Italy when she came back to the states she started experiencing some you know colds flu like symptoms. And she did the right thing. She contacted the health officials health department and they told her them under accords. Well you know With people you know being how they are especially in. Maybe we'll say do Clayton area Nobody really tells me what to do. Kind of attitude I I think that you know this gentleman decided that the memory was his daughter which I don't I don't hate him before but The memory with his daughter to go to the daddy daughter dance was more important and so they were there. They got a phone call. Seven seven thirty. Yeah indeed sister had over nineteen so they did Leave the facility at that point. In time and the Ritz Carlton underwent fool surgical cleaning. Which is a mammoth task. But they did it very quickly. But the issue is people's Perceptions. Often you know outmatch reality and so with that being said you know there's been some cancellations here and there but you know for room stays and then you know other events that people have cancelled that have come up In my in my opinion you know unnecessarily Because of all the facilities in Saint Louis and thinks the Ritz Carlton. It's one of those facilities. That really really does have put fast response. Time Marriott International's and awesome company. We're going to be going to a meeting later today. I'll be here in a little bit. More information about what Marriott. International last to disseminate as far as what's going to be expected in the coming weeks. Yeah maybe I'll be able to cut the call in you know another day. You're a little bit more about that but It looks like to me. You know it's We've it's GONNA get more. It's GonNa be more interesting before it gets less interesting right so I mean like have you talked to anybody who was working at the actual daddy daughter dance that maybe is having symptoms or A. Has Anybody else that you've known maybe contracted anything while they're at that particular event so so far so good. I haven't heard any reports concerning that. But with incubation period being you know we're getting all kinds of different conflicting information about intimidation periods and all that We'll see I mean I don't. I don't have nobody. So far. Said anything. And even if they were contracted that evening you probably wouldn't know so maybe the next week so we'll see we'll Kinda kinda play by ear and and figure that out but With it being so highly communicable. They're just on top of everybody. Having a hand sanitizer stations. And we already have you know certain hygiene protocols and since you know being a bartender. I'm usually four enough something so we you know. Forty percent eighty eighty proof so for the most part. I don't think it's going to hang out in the glass too much with your Bourbon. Yeah no kidding. All right man well. Hey Nolan thank you so much for calling in because of course we'll probably next week or something like that or call in next week and let us know some more information. Because I would love to see what Ritz Carlton is doing about the situation in regards to that that dance and all that stuff in regards to people who are actually in that hotel you know because it's a hotel on top of that on top of that reception hall so I'd love to see and find out what they're doing from this point on in regards to keeping people safe in in in trying not to cause any type of spread of said disease you know what I mean absolutely and you know real quick before I get off with you. Thanks for taking my call. Of course plug the Ritz Carlton. We're we are undergoing a multi million dollar renovation so when it comes down to it around. August expect Or you know. I'm not sure what the timeline is. They're actually going very fast paced. Come up to the Ritz Carlton once we have Other parts of facility renovated it'll be a brand new restaurant kinds of amazing things happening pateras so once. All sports overcome cocktail wasn't awesome man. Thank you Ma'am thank you so much. Thank you so much for calling in anyway. We of course everyone be safe out there and all that we do have some very special in the House. We gotta get into this real quick. We have recording artists. Royce is in the HOS- gay. Hey we're doing good. How you survive in getting through you know. I was previously for like three days. But it was like basic flu symptoms but I was tripping because the corona was going crazy. So you know so you were sick just recently or how a week ago okay. Good and then you're fine. I'm invincibles I mean. Yeah so you said that you were just flying or something like that. You were just travelling recently. Like how recent Like a week ago or whatever. Yeah Yeah I did everything in that little trip so I got some videos done with like a dance team. University is in Orange County Newport. Fancy little area but yeah got some videos done Worked with this university Chapman University and we did a little dance video and a music video to ride my weight which come out soon too. So yes we'll see all that super exciting super exciting so you were out there. How House Kelly? It was blame. I was there the days like an ice and it started raining and after I left so I'm like good my little son in when I could. No kidding no kidding so I I understand like okay. So you've been doing your thing for a minute. Now you've been getting out there working Which is which is really exciting. Ride my wave is part of an so. When is that album come out? I have an album actually that we just like twenty one thousand nine hundred some in the Roy. Cbs could find on all platforms. It's really indie vibes. You know yeah I also did a little movie soundtrack with show this called with at partway party with boys or something like that. It's like a very like horror movie type college movie and it's going to be a net flicks in so you guys would see that to be cool. You acted in this. I just did a soundcheck track for track. Nice that's exciting under your does like. Wow how did you get that? Hooker absorb curiosity. How do you? How did you make that happen? My management decent people and I guess they liked what I did in soundcloud songs and I guess we tried to get one of my soundcloud songs and use that for the thing but I was like. Why don't you just do like a whole little ep or type project where you guys could pick from that and like US whatever you want so we kind of did that and they used all of this is like Oh shit. Excuse me those things happen. Those things happened so his okay. We did it is done is done anyway. So what's next? I'm trying to take a setback. We'll step back from performing and stuff right now. I'm trying to do more like songwriting. And just like just creative little endeavors may be acting. Just things like that. Soundtracks relate more movies silly things like that. Sorry my God early. My brain is okay are on the radio just wing reminder knows okay. There's no since fine. Is it happens. You know what I mean. It happens all right. So that's that's what you're stealing the in depth in the endeavor that you're interested in going into next okay. So what is so? What does the song that we're playing today? My way all right so check it out. This is ride my wave. Y'All talkie you go on this guy on my. I'm an closer and a large be no bad English as he wanted to do in Parkdale Don. Why don't you give them French? Movie cried twenty twenty. Guideline people do on these days for. I am Age came in like a dozen. They're coming north. Ain't no danger you better than a Bra. S still making marching grumble. Everybody Union dumb blonde burning love but if you make him dead earned Camin. Then you're dead I carry on. I'm very Join me mind. Dogged normal I do I chide. I'm a long way though. Hadn't love win better yet. His Song is getting along Ryan my eye. Don't right all right. That is ride my wave working. They find this now on spotify tunes all platforms to everywhere the Yo all those platforms look up Royce spell your name for them real quick R. S E E. I know it's weird. Roi S. E. Check her out. She's definitely in artists on the rise. We'll be right back this the past gal show back this is real talk from Real Saint Louis streaming live are real talk. Wgn YOU DOT com. Yes you know what it is is the Pascal show. You know what it is. Come on now if you don't know already now you know that's all I'm saying all I'm saying right now. This is interesting over. Fifty thousand people have recovered from Corona virus around the war around the world according to John hops to Johns Hopkins. Wow I can't even talk right now. So obviously cases a cases of the new chronic virus continue to climb so have the instances of recovery and tracker maintained by John. Hoskins University reported that more than fifty thousand people have recovered. More than ninety. Four thousand people have become have become infected with the krona virus which causes the disease cove cove vid nineteen since there since it was first identified in December. Alright so the fact that fifty thousand people over fifty thousand people have been have recovered from this disease from this corona virus. Man You know. That's a little bit of light at the end of this tunnel. You know what I'm saying just to stay positive and keep this in our minds. You know what I'm saying like just to be just to think of that you know yes. James said the odds are in our favor for sure you know. I don't know what the odds are of light. 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03 July, 2019 Episode 728 Treating OCD
"This is twists this week in science episode number seven hundred twenty eight reported on wednesday july third two thousand nineteen treating a cd hey there there's a doctor kiki in tonight on this week in science we will fill your head with hiv oj cd are old butthurt twist is supported by listeners like you we thank you for your support we really couldn't do it without you claimer this labradors glamour the fourth of july independence day the day we celebrate as a nation with great pride in a plethora of pyrotechnics in memory of illegal immigrants who despite the odds declared land stolen from native population by the british empire dubious bears instead says our founding fathers and mothers had no right to the land by la invited buying h rennick oman are they were by definition illegal trespassers in their own homes they should have been deported back to the many many many many nations that they had fled in search of freedom but instead they stood tall smoke after the power and declared america to be a nation of free people except for the negro of course not extending all rights to women to be fair these newcomers to america sometimes immigrants need time to adjust to a new society first settles could barely feed themselves needed this assistance of the native population to survive end the founding immigrants with the more than a few cultural hangups that needed to be worked out over a few hundred years of assimilation it wouldn't be a hundred and forty four years between seventeen seventy six and nineteen twenty when women first got the right to vote as in most native nation american cultures women had either equal in some cases worthy only voice and entered on five issues such as choosing who would be the chief who's duties usually lied outside of actual core tribe institutional a matters so as a result all right this fourth of july let us not forget that this is a nation of immigrants and that independence day is it dave declaring yourself independent firm a foreign nation in finding a home instead iran this week in science coming up next i got kind of mine i can't get enough i wanna learn everything i wanna believe it all the way up there that happening every day we there's only one place to go by knowledge i mean i wanna know on capitol hill dining out on a limb to sign a remember an that good science to you to just in blair end everyone out there welcome to another episode of this week in science we are back again oh there's so much science on the eve of a holiday as we record this episode so everybody get ready to get your you as independence party hats but that's not what are shows about at all at all with hot a high end not politics i have stories about cutting out the hiv got another story about mold on the space station end even interview tonight with doctors susanna my she's going to be speaking with that that her research into cd but before we get there justin why did you bring to the shell out of i've got i've got a peach tree dish hamburgers anyone a oh i do a little bit of politics f d h slackers in the funding that is making him slackers ended robots predicting the future by doing your homework if i were still a student man all right future's bright for those who are young okay blair what's in animal corner i brought some bats i brought some unusual crocodiles anthem turtles it don't need any oxygen on on never well you'll see hard knocks thick turtles i don't get it yeah they're they're a hero in asheville one would say oh my gosh can as we move into the show i wouldn't mind that if you are not yet subscribe at podcast one because you get more tiny things like that adam blair like like that yes we are everywhere you confined podcast i tunes google spotify spreaker pandora radio tune in all the places you could also just find us at twist dot org we are also on youtuber in facebook all right now it is time for art interview i would love to welcome to the show i guess doctors suzanne omari she is an associate professor of psychiatry by the university at university of pittsburgh school of medicine she hasn't md added a phd doctor doctor doctor doctor from inferred inferred university angie completed her post doctoral work at columbia university she studies the neural mechanisms underlying obsessive compulsive disorder and other disorders of the brain welcome to the show thank you so much for being here i actually feel so at home now that i know you guys like puns as much as i i never goes away oh my money willie there we are if it if it's possible and it it's in later there's one i'd like to immortalize you know to because basically i have a graduate student who is trying to get out of the lab as fast as possible to avoid my palms and radically corinne archer right i'm going to just pun my graduate students scooter these guys get out of here otherwise i'll do another one that's amazing okay okay first question right off the bat obsessive compulsive disorder o c d i think everybody has a sense of what they think it is yeah we you know there is a common phrase oh so i was so oh cd about that if it were literally not properly at i would love i would love to hear how would you please tell us what obsessive compulsive disorder and also why we really shouldn't be saying that oh you know putting it lightly in a conversation really i oh thank you so much first start in that way because it is one of the things that if if you don't if anyone out there listening doesn't remember anything else about this night just try to think about taking that phrase out of you're vocabulary ticket out if you're lexicon be i'm so cd i do x y z because if you are saying that you probably do not have cd you know it's it's possible it's possible but most people who have a cd aren't going around saying you know i'm so cd that it took me eight hours to get here in the morning and i had to wake up at two am do all my rituals and i was late for work because i had to do all that stuff so so it's really it just first and foremost it it had and i think it's really great that were starting that way because i think part of the problem has been that the media in general has tended to portray it as kind of a funny quirk odd behaviors things that actually can make you perform veteran life right it's like this idea that happy note c d is actually a good thing because it means you're meticulous it means that you are really attentive to detail and that means that you know you're gonna get the job done and do it better than another person would do in you know people with c g can be extremely high functioning then they can be incredibly intelligent they can do really fantastic things in life but it's not because of their o c d there is cd gets in the way of them doing even more than they could do otherwise right so what people are typically talking about about when they say oh i'm so cd it's things like i need to have things ordered in a particular way i need you know the my refrigerator to be organized in this way i need to load the dishwasher this particular way i basically i need have control over my space in there certainly is some overlap with those kinds of things with oj cd proper but what that tends to fall into the category of is something we call obsessive compulsive personality disorder which is kind of an entirely it's a different thing that has a lot of commodity but it's probably got different circuits and the brain and they're really really clear distinction between them in that is someone who has as oh see obsessive compulsive personality disorder someone who doesn't even have that but just like sentenced on their way right like you know all of us like had me so you know in like yeah happier space organized have you're things neat and clean is that that's actually something you want to do it's something that makes you happy it's something that you think is good at something that you think these other people are wrong in that you're right and you're doing it the right way and again the most important thing is it's not impairing you're like it's not if you're in your ability to actually have a job to have friends should have a family to take care of all the things that you need in your daily life o c d on the other hand is were lucky in a way that the the diagnostic criteria unlike some things in psychiatry they're pretty clear cut so it's having obsessions incompletions which is not surprising 'cause it's called a cd of obsessive compulsive disorder an obsession is every current intrusive thoughts in impulse or an image that pops into your brain anna compulsion is something that you do you in order to neutralize that ought immature impose or get he anxiety associated with that thought out of you're bringing in so that anxiety part that 'em that that link between that obsession actually causing this intense overwhelming fear and anxiety or just stress and then the compulsion helping to kind of get rid of that anxiety that's a really key we think inc actually in the research that were doing we think that's a really key hallmark in this particular illness and we think understanding those links understanding those links between obsessions compulsions and anxiety might help us figure out how to break this cycle people people were will be talking about it from kind of the behavioral standpoint and also the brain standpoint okay so you've got be obsessions and the compulsion so behaviorally you focus on something and then you have do a behavior to free herself of anxiety but then it can be recurrent and so it it happens in a cycle that happens over and over again what do we know if there's a we haven't gotten to the brain part yet but do we know if there's a difference between queen you know that the current obsession compulsion loop loops on itself over and over and say you know somebody who goes oh did i turn off of it in half of go back and turn off yemen seven or go check even though you think to yourself i must've turned it off but you have to go back and check like is there what's the link out it's a great question it's 'em in it's kind of a key question right because as we said he answer is we don't know what the relationship is between that what i would call this continue on the spectrum because if you think about you know the kind of random intrusive thoughts that pop into one sprain we all have these so we actually all have intrusive thoughts you know it it's an example i gave a lot when i used to with a new york which would you know new yorkers would immediately understand dan but i think many of the general population which you is that idea you know you're on the subway platform oh yeah this is the subway whatever wallet was i would press back against it the train came to a stop i had this over you haven't even said well it is overwhelming fear that when the train shame i would somehow be on the tracks so you know this is exactly what i was gonna say right so you have had that thought you had that intrusive thoughts that i had this is off did you did you know where where where where rule a total about me i would literally a half the way myself against the back wall of this and i would there be online going oh hey are we gonna train came her is like machine but i'm like verified yeah we were still in not right and so like half the people are like oh yeah i totally get that i'm afraid i'm gonna jump on the platform half the people like of course i've never had that thought you could take it one step further and then half of the i mean this is this is non scientific poll i've taken but has been all have also had the random thought they see someone on that yellow line they see blair out there and they're like oh what if i pushed her onto the tracks and of course you have no good that you have noted meyer did you that you have you're not going to do it there's no chance that you're going to do what's the calculation of just how much force with the wrong time you know just being a human with a brain right so these are this is random information from environment meant you're bringing this and all the time you're doing random calculations these random thoughts popping in most of this kind of flotsam and jetsam you know we just like we're thought an you just let it go like oh that was funny and then you talk about it you know repairs or whatever but the problem is with someone with a in so that that's kind of point right is that everyone has these thoughts these thoughts that are random that are what we would call ego just tonic you would not want to do them you would not hope to do them yet the thought pops into your head but for most of us they floated flowed out and we move on with their day for someone with those cd set thought can essentially essentially essentially get trapped it so it's like they have the thought that thought than sticks in their head like wait why did i have that thought this is what what maybe i had that thought because i do want to jump onto the tracks maybe i had that thought because i do wanna push that person on the tracks oh my goodness that makes me feel like i'm a horrible person that raise is huge levels of distress huge levels of anxiety and then you know be idea idea of okay how can i get rid of that anxiety and again it isn't necessarily there's not necessarily a logic between the thought and then what needs to get done to to kind of neutralized anxiety in some cases there is in some cases it would be i i am concerned about being contaminated with germs and therefore i'm going to wash my hands repeatedly over and over again in order to decrease the fear of contamination but first someone would be you know the thought about the person jumping onto the tracks maybe it would be that they you have to you know a touch touch the the subway platform ten times and then they knew tries that thought they've gotten rid of the bad idea and then they move on with their day but maybe they have to touch the subway platform ten times in a particular way until it feels right until it's the right you know the end until the signal that it's okay is kind of turned off an for you know for some people depending on how stressed stress they are how anxious they are or how bad their us he did you know that could be something where you only need to do two or three cycles and then you could actually get on the next train or that could be something where you need to do it for an hour and you're late for work or that may be something where you can't even tolerated and you have to go home for the day and so that's the kind of thing you know that that that were talking about an interesting thing back to 'em kiki's in original question about you know how are those kinds of thoughts that pop into your brain are they the same but then you know then the mechanisms that make them stick or different that's it's a crucial question and it's one we would love the answer but we don't have the answer to but what we do know is that if you can't it's there was an interesting study that was done where they took people who didn't have any evidence of a cd 'em didn't have family members with go cd the richest you're quote unquote you know healthy controls aunt they engage them in this task where they were having to check a stove over and over again yeah they they were basically asked it was a it was not a real sto but it was a simulated it was like a picture of herself i believe and they had to check over and over again to see if in fact the stove is turned off they had than they were asked recalled later and not whether the stoke was turned off and you know and it was a stressful situation that's in the lab and basically people even without oh cd started to tend to engage in more and more checking behavior over and over again so it's what that suggested in some ways is like you know again i do not think this is across the board but i think there are kind of fundamental circuits that potentially be crying more in some people than others to start to engage in these kinds of repetitive loops it sounds a bit like you know that like training that you're brain there's idea in neuro science you know thee that the neurons that fire together wire together right and so you're saying okay you this happens go check the so this happened go check the stove and it's like offering conditioning for people to remind me of when i was a keeper and i worked in the carnivore department and i'm i would leave at the end of the day and i would get to the very end the space that i needed the exit and i had locked the door and i'd go all my locks locked yeah never in the two years that i was a keeper did i leave a lock on locked it was supposed to be locked but there were many many days where i would have to turn around and go all the way back through all of my enclosures to make sure everything's locked it got to the point where i would take pictures this is right after i got my very first smart i would take pictures of all of the locks and they would have a date and time and location tation tack to them so that when i would have those anxious thoughts i could open up my phone and i could scroll through and see on my phone became the compulsive behavior because it's like though is that it makes it these are these are sounding like coping mechanisms i'm if i'm here right the person who's tapping their platform ten times wasn't getting on the train before he was not gonna get on the train in in somehow invented the way of doing it now a that that sounds like something that needs to be cared but on the other hand them thinking immediately there's something like a a an ape alenia or another that's something that causes you know there's this horrible story of this woman who drowned their child after hearing voices that soldier do you know if if it could be actually implemented to do they compulsive behavior when faced with something that otherwise disruptive more disruptive then perhaps compulsive behavior as a so it's it's interesting like i actually haven't thought of it from that perspective be four of you know like can they're always be a worst thing that you are doing it's like is that compulsive behavior better then a you know again like a being addicted to heroin or being you know are being suicidal but i think what i want a stress in probably didn't come through clearly enough yet is when someone has really really severe o c d and even when someone has like mild to moderate cd it can be extremely impairing right 'em so you know it it can be so disabling that 'em that you might need neurosurgery if we were actually we add 'em evaluated someone you know who hadn't been able to leave their house for three years so there there's it when it's at its most severe it's just just severe as someone who has you know very severe schizophrenia very severe substance abuse you know any of those things and i think part of the issue is most people at least had don't don't realise a how severe it could be because most people haven't met someone with a cd that is that severe that has admitted to it right yeah it's we often call it the hidden illness because people are very often good at hiding the symptoms at compensating saving for them in kind of making do by by you know kind of alluded to this before by decreasing the amount of sleep they have that kind of limiting their choices in life by you decided that they ever have a partner by you know all these kinds of things sound so they're they're aware of this i think there's a lot ain't like if you're caught in this loop it's not that you have in memory loss of memory situation where you don't realize you've already done this a this loop absolutely it you realize this is the sixteenth time and not have to get to the twenties fabric lutely yeah it's actually in it's interesting you bring up the memory thing because so it gets to kind of where story because you know i mean obviously see that's that's getting towards the verge of of that kind of experience great which is not that surprising two to three percent of people have full fledged cd in this country in many more have you know low level again that's spectrum there's low level symptoms that you know are gonna be impairing but that can get activated in times of stress oregon when the consequences of not doing it are really high like in your case if you had on you know the locks fox had been unlocked that would have would have been on the news straight ahead rhino escapes new but what's interesting though and i really liked that example in a way because you could take those pictures on your phone you could look at them in that wasn't enough reassurance to you that it was fine you could move on and let someone with those cd with respect to that that would not that would likely not reassuring enough to them right there'd be like but in in this is again another key part this is it defies logic this is even when people are completely aware like a hundred percent or ninety nine point nine percent sure that the evidence is telling them but there is no problem they still have to do rituals they still have to do these loops even though logically they know there is no way that it's necessary 'em and so and so that's really the key thing is that they know that they're engaged in these groups that are are are not going to give them the outcome that they want that's necessary that they don't have to do this thing in order to keep you know to keep the bad thoughts to keep the bad outcome from happening but they do it anyways they and it's not that they want to do it they are they're compelled to do it in an extra i think i thought i saw this 'em their image that popped up we have to be there and i also cycle 'cause i like the example that i have there if you sit 'em a few times or quite quite a bit in talks 'em in so you know this isn't example a lot of people are familiar with contamination waited a cd so it's this idea that there's contaminations where it's a you know from me environment of various kinds and so a classic example of this is seen someone with a cut on their hands and saying oh you know by seen that caught a i'm going to get hiv so it immediately triggers this obsessive thought i'm gonna get hiv because i saw that now this can be you know if you're standing two hundred feet away from the person if you know like logically that there's absolutely no way a virus can be transmitted that way it could be even if you're pretty much a hundred percent sure that that person doesn't have hiv they show you their test results from ultra and it doesn't matter that's still going to trigger what i label here's inappropriate fear and it's inappropriate because it really defies logic in that level of fear it's really hard to convey they unless you've known some with this illness it it's really a life it it feels life threatening to them right so it's it's as if they will die if they don't do that and it's like if i dropped a tiger into the room with you guys right now and it was going for you you would you could feel that level of fear in distress and when you have one of these a cd triggers and so then that leads to these ritualized behaviors again i mean this is actually up for debate and that gets kind of the brain circuitry of it you know what drives what but at least in one period illness it's this anxiety that's driving these compulsive behaviors and then and then the one of the things that were studying in the lab right now that were really interested in this idea is that the kind of the problem and i think again it's a hypothesis but the idea is that one of the reasons why these cycles might get perpetuated going back to be idea idea firing together and wiring together is even though the person doesn't wanna do this nothing about it as something that they actually want to do but when they do that compulsive behavior the problem is for many people it can leads to release it can reach you anxiety relief but it's really really temporary it's really fleeting and so it can make you feel momentarily better and you could imagine if i took that tiger back out of the room from you guys you would so if you feel so relieved and that is such a that kind of remove all of that horrible thing is really rewarding actually it's it's such a release that you feel safe again right and so that in and of itself can be really reinforcing we think and so part of what my kinda perpetuate these owes cd cycles is that if you do get that that kind of russia release that that ended up itself might be a way of operating conditioning grain to want to do this again and again and again even though i believe it's kind of that we the reward pathway exactly reward of in and that's we called negative reinforcement it's like e b removal of a bad thing is reporting that if you take away a bad thing than were actually happy you know were in me says something that's actually not been studied as much and so we've we've actually got a un ongoing study with one of my clinical collaborators here a doctor rebecca price and an were actively recruiting so it's anyone in the in the greater pittsburgh ohio west virginia area 'em were looking for people to join their study to actually look at the circuits that might be underline that process so this is a wonderful segway into questions about the brain end how we know what we know about oh cd circuitry todate however we looked at this and what do we know yeah so where it's interesting so in the field of a cd were actually pretty fortunate in that we know quite a bit at least about what circuits we think might be involved in it and we certainly don't know all the players but there's been a lot of really good neuro imaging worked on over the years that's highlighted abnormalities in particular regions of the brain so we have on normality some portions of the prefrontal cortex which is really important for things like decision making deciding what actions you're going to do assigning values the action in particular we have shown on the slide you're v or put a frontal cortex and interior singular cortex so all of these these these particular regents have been shown to be hyperactive 'em a both at baseline end when symptoms are provoked in people with a cd 'em it all it yeah if you get into the details it also gets complicated because in some cases there can be decreased activity but you in in general you know if you look at at baseline these kinds of things you see then you also see increased activity in parts of the brain including the caught eight which is a part of the basal so ganglia which is important for against executing actions executing the kinds of things you know movements anders sequences of behavior it's a deal that would make bets yet and then there's also problems a hyper activity i should say in the foulness 'em end what we know that be the cortex industry item nfl amiss all talk to each other in loops and so you you could have signals transmit committed between cortex straight i'm thomasson backup to cortex so this is led to lots of theories over the years in the field of a cd that cd is really a problem of abnormal communication with denise critical straddled comic so so we have good evidence for that from human studies and then some of the work that we do in the lab is really geared towards trying to dissect the circuits and trying to see how these different regions of the brain rain are actually communicating during compulsive behaviors 'em in yeah and we can talk more about that we can show the fireworks movie actually know that so i looking in back in two thousand thirteen teen you had you were one of a couple of teams that had come up with kind of opposing experiments on this circuitry in mice using a a technique that it involves light in the brain and yeah so i was wondering if you could kind of give us the background 'cause that kind of that study from two thousand thirteen kind of set the stage for understanding things that we've that you've moved forward on yeah so this is a study that was basically using something as he said using light to do activation in the brain it's called after genetics 'em and so what auto genetics allows us to do is take advantage of the discovery of light activated debated i on channels from you actually from minnesota their green algae and you take these channels you could put them into neurons in the brain and essentially what they do is they act like studying channels 'em in so sodium channel in the neuron all membrane if you open it up is let's put him in if you close it yeah let's mental excess matt you generate and action potential you getting rounds fired in the brain now if you put some these channels into axons you can essentially use light to turn these channels on and off and you can effectively cours neurons the fire action potential in real time instead this was really exciting because it allowed out us to gain real control over their own all firing patterns and the random we could start to test some of these hypotheses about how hyperactivity in the brain of these particular regions might actually be linked to behaviors that might be relevant to the cd and so in the work that we did we took normal mice andy put this one of these multiple genera dopson into this connection between the orbital frontal cortex and destroy them and and then hyper activated that to see if it would generate oh cd like behaviors now that's a whole other questions like what you basically obviously you click the optic genetic and put the light in instead go neurons fatter little or higher they may go cd happen if we add more firing exactly exactly and we saw something really interesting 'em which was that if you if you turned on the circuit you essentially 'em if you turn the mind you didn't immediately see anything that looks like it might be relevant cd but if you repeatedly stimulated the circuits over the course of multiple days you saw a gradual evolution of an increase increase in grooming behavior in mice andy what's interest so the light had to be there for this to happen but it actually be the be abnormal groom behavior wasn't happening when the lights on if it's happening when the lights off which is suggesting that there is some kind of plasticity process like we were talking about before that was slowly building up gradually to be treated this change in behavior over time and then we did a we basically combined that opted genetics sticks with electric physiology so being able to record in the brain at the same time as we're doing the stimulation and then saw in fact that yes when we were repeatedly stimulating we saw over the course of time if you put another pulse of flight in to the brain if you put a positive light into the brain you kind of you got more activity out over the course of time so essentially we're strengthening that connection between orbital frontal cortex and the straight at the same time an interesting thing is so you know not only like with that showing you that you could get this progressive increasingly abnormal activity an abnormal grooming behavior if we then didn't have the lights on you know left them alone for a couple of weeks came back two weeks later you still saw that there is a persistent change in this behavior even though it educate slowly over time so that was just showing us that if we if we kind of broke this circuit by hyper stimulating it we could actually leads to this manifestation of abnormal behavior in other words that were doing is actually kind of taking that animal model that was used any other kp referring to the it's it's a transgenic mouse model it's called the sap at three knockout mouse 'em in in that'll segway into some of the the newer work were doing in humans a human post mortem work 'em end in the sap at three knockout mice what's interesting seen is that at baseline they have a completely different brain so in a way yeah what we were doing what they opted genetic stimulation was much more it you know kind of taking a a normal brain and seeing if we could push shit which is you know done in adult animal and so potentially not a similar is what you would expect might be happening in a cd which we know is an illness that has a huge genetic component to it and so what be be other mouse model did was essentially a it was a mouse that was made by knocking out this particular protein called sap at three it's a post nap dicta unfunny molecule it's important for for kind of holding you know holding synoptic shaped together specially out of that then neurons connect with each other so yeah so that they're effectively if it'll connecting communicate properly 'em end if that gene is knocked out throughout the whole license animal essentially the the the animal develops this very compulsive grooming behavior in i in in it is truly compulsive the real sense and that it does it despite there being negative consequences to this action so if it continues to groom despite it being painful and developing painful lesions 'em it disrupts the ability to sleep each to take care of pops made at cetera and it'll continue to do that and so at baseline the brain is very very different in in so than what we've been doing is taking those animals that have essentially grown up with this genetic change in using technologies including after genetics including 'em in vivo microscopy where we can take these tiny little microscopes and put them into the brain up the mouse and 'em see neurons actually flashing firing watching them communicate in real time as see animal is engaged in compulsive behavior 'em and for lucky we might guess i would ask pointing at because so yeah so this this what you're what you're seeing here is basically a view down the lens of the microscope so this is a tiny lens five hunter macron's across that we placed into the straight on this kind of action control center in the brain end and it it each of those flashes of light that you're seeing is essentially one neurons firing and communicating with these other neurons in this particular movie was taken win a mouse with engaged in this compulsive grooming behavior and so what we're trying to do now is code the patterns of activity that are occurring in the compulsively grooming mice versus the non compulsively crummy mice and seeing what the you know if we can essentially figure out how the signal in this behavior that outwardly might look the same might be different in the brand yeah that's fascinating the question of something that behaviorally looks the same yeah having a completely different neurological basis exactly exactly and it's interesting in that it's interesting because it's like so so people there's many different tasks that we can look at and people who have a cd and see how they perform differently on these different tasks of from people who don't have a cd an one example of a task like that that were were testing in the lab in animals it's called reversal learning and it's a pretty simple task you know you in in the way they were doing it they animal has learned depress a lever to get a chocolate reword pellet and then it has to learn to change the rule it has to learn that actually see other leopard that's gonna give it the chocolate reworked and the mice in general can learn that pretty well in people if they're cd can have problems with that activities so they can have problems and actually switching these tat switching the rules of the particular tap end 'em which may or may not exactly be correlated with their symptoms but it might be essentially a marker of this and i tell yeah yeah you can then be the thing that's interesting is when we look in these genetic we changed mice what we see is that they in fact half of them have normal reversal learning they can do it completely the same as as normal mice half of them do not stay completely sale tail end weaken so what we have is this spectrum of these mice being able to succeed or fail on this task in we've we've gotten some clues that we published relatively recently about what the brain might be doing to compensate in the case of the mice who can succeed on this task versus the mice who couldn't even though they're genetically identical they have the same genetic change in early and people were those cd if you have you know they might be able able to perform the task well but that's because their brain is actually acting in a different way then someone without a cd might have so they have these potentially compensatory mechanisms that are being put in place in order to make those changes the research that you have published recently that led to this interview has to do with hit a kidnapper brains looking out at in life because as we talked about this over and over on this show is as interesting as mice are they're not people so we actually they are more will eventually when the when the mice do become sent him to take over there to we appreciate all the hard work that yet but it is they're not not everything is evenly applicable or adequately applicable applicable to human therapies and treatments and so the the looking humans is more is much better but humans are hard gives you can't slice up living people brains says crime so how did you go from fm awry to looking at molecular 'em profiles of deceased the brains of deceased individuals with oh cd yeah so this was actually something that started when i when i started my lab at the university of pittsburgh so 'em hit has he really fantastic resource and it say human post mortem brand bank it's part of this a national consortium of human puts brand banks there's six in the country that are within this particular construction and it is an amazing resource 'em because you know basically very very generous people and their family members have decided to donate their brain for for science in for an honestly less i mean it is free science but it's human health it's to try to actually a really advance are understanding of these diseases 'em at and you know and it's not at at at pittsburgh in particular are we have a really strong concentration a history of doing research and schizophrenia major depressive disorder etc end but when i moved here i thought you know actually there's at the time and i moved there had been no post morning studies that have been done in a cd and again it gets to this idea that you know it's and under recognized stillness it's something that people don't think it's that severe and it's something that again goes under the radar in terms of people even reporting that they have it because cause of stigma that's associated with that end so you know in in the reason it's important to think about that reach a that that that question is because i i started by saying we know a lot about circuits that are involved in a cd 0 from the imaging studies but we know very very little about the molecules in genes that are abnormal no cd again despite the fact that there's estimated between forty and sixty percent genetic a genetic basis of the disease probably closer to forty but in that's in part because they're not they're basically haven't been enough resources put into trying to identify the genetic causes and i can i can get into you know i can get up on my soapbox about that but basically you know essentially in order to get their their now in a in a relatively recent study there were like a hundred genes that were identified as being potentially important for schizophrenia in order does find those genes they needed to examine on the order of thirty six thousand people were schizophrenia in a hundred and thirteen thousand people without schizophrenia in o c d the similar genetic studies that were trying to do to identify the jeans at this stage they've had 'em around like twenty five hundred people wets cd an a round seven thousand people without a cd so in we so far have not found any jeans but it's likely because were drastically underpowered sign right so i'm not a geneticist right so i'm that's that is a problem that other people are trying to solve but what i could do with the help of wonderful collaborators here is to look at her post mortem brain bank and see if they're actually any people who've donated their brains who had a cd and so i had a really amazing graduate student shonky answer joe see an amazing undergraduate student brittany chamberlain they comb the brain bank to try and find any cases that had a cd we found eight so they're eight preeminence that we had to work was 'em and we found eight really well matched controls and honestly it was so you brains that we were not expecting much but so we we looked at we we didn't have money did you this study at the beginning so we we did a very we kind of 'em surface level examination initially just take looking at genes that had been suggested to be potentially a relevant a cd and so we took those genes we did pcr on them tpc yard make a quantitative and then looked at be announcing the controls versus the people who had a cd and we saw we we work because there were so few subject to write expectancy much we saw released striking changes 'em end they they're pretty unexpected which is what what's exciting so we looked in regions of the brain that we know from imaging studies are likely to be involved we looked in the front court left in stratum gambler we saw when we looked at glutamate relator genes which are it'd be excited tori a like the the ways that excited tori a synopsis talk to each other we saw striking down regulation of a oh and now we're seeing the the kind of picture sure of the glutamate the glutamate associates and apps so what we saw were many of the proteins that are being shown here of the genes that that include them were actually being down regulated in the brain brain people who had a cd compared to people who did not have it and if we can show the great yeah there's the grass so so essentially what what this is showing you here is that we have we've grouped the the transcripts that were involved in snapped there's a little type of there but it was like synoptic structure protein so just be the transcripts that are really important in holding those synopses together 'em those those are shown here on the left in you see any orbital frontal cortex that's those first two bars you see a really significant down regulation there in the straight on there's also some evidence of john regulation but it's not nearly as striking and then again if you look at the graph on the right the receptor level and the transporter level in these glutamate synopsis again you see this down regulation with any orbital frontal cortex so what was really interesting was that that that all every thing we saw with down regulated 'em in this was quite surprising and it's really kind of opened up new ideas to us about how things might be happening in the brain it's of people in a cd that we wouldn't have come to you without this amazing resource right when you think of you know you you you you think of the previous work in a kind of hyper exciting see orbital frontal cortex tax and that circuitry wister with a with the light stimulation you're hyper exciting it and so you're thinking okay it's gonna be hyper excitement and up regulation that we need to this activity and then molecular lee it's like no well now it in in in that and also it's like you have these decades of of human imaging research showing you that it's increased activity in the brain in all these regions and when you see that it that distracts are any opposite direction by but this is the only difference between fm ri end actual molecular level stuff because fm all right you're looking at a at glucose so the uptake in you're looking you're not looking at the receptor themselves you're looking at hundreds of neurons in their activity in small areas and so it's this kind of amassed a mad nets activity activity right at activity of hey blood flow oxygen glucose activity but it's not what be activity is yeah yeah well but so it's funny because i actually just had this conversation with my grad student shot and who is the first author on this work today 'em because we've been we ever since we got these data we've been debating about what it actually would mean if it were translated into activity and so because like at the surface level you know it's like you look at all of these excited tori transcript an you see okay they're all down that must mean the brain activity is down but actually eight that's that's to a too broad stroke here because what we have is we have all so in some cases for example there's the protein that's actually the same one that's down regulated in that knockout now the sap at three knockout scott mouth 'em we saw it down regulated to an r and r m a n a human post mortem brains end if you look in these sap at knockout so again they have the down regulation but we can get into their brands and we can like pro them am what you see is you see increased activity in their stride it so even though they don't have that protein in their straight 'em it's gone in theory that should be leading to few were you know let leszek citation you actually see an increase in excited there'll be in that gets to the point that these are complex networks that are all doing many different things so while we have a down regulation of that particular transcript that particular or 'em a synopsis associated approaching we also have don regulation of a particular glutamate transporter which normally serves to soak up glutamate in kind of sequester not not in need super high levels so not to the point where it actually does that much too soon after transmission a daily basis but you know but that would toned down hyperactivity a little bit so it's it are sorry i otherwise that would that would actually increased activity a little bit so so there's all these complex in you know if you have down regulation of an ea receptor sub units versus samper receptor seven units and how much of one versus see other is actually gonna just max and the difference in a particular way it can be hard to figure out how all of those different changes are gonna translate into a different it's a different lovers because you've got the levers that say go and you've got the levers this they slow down an it how much each of those lovers is turned on is going to influence them out of overall activity exactly exactly an i i i love the human post mortem brain research because again it is the human brain it is brains from people were reported symptoms that have been carefully described by by clinicians you know we know what we're dealing with in terms of symptoms that they have this is not the same as as a mouse right 'em in so it's it's wonderful amazing information that we could get that we can't get another way but it is a snapshot in so that's that's the kind of thing where you and think okay so yeah maybe it is overall this idea that it's a a down regulation that that there's a this down regulatory process which then i can dream up hypotheses about what that might mean that it may be the solomon says having tons of them put and then the cortex is trying to you know turn the signal down and that's why it's dumb regulating all that but again that's based on the premise that that we can translate these changes in judy activity patterns that actually understand that but it could also be something like maybe i mean there's also evidence from human imaging studies of structural changes in people with a cd that they have a there they have less volume andy orbital frontal cortex ended up either sin apps loss right in that you know that and that's different altogether exactly in were actively testing that it is but they can also catch structural changes come from like having had oh cd for a very long time were sort of his hatcher so that's that's one aspect of the disease and that the yeah and not the costs absolutely and that's what's very difficult to telling these kinds of saves 'cause we don't have very good longitudinal studies where you're tracking people people at risk 'em and then see whether they're developing and see what's the cause and effect and that's actually why i liked used animal models in humans in combination because then you try and go back and forth and take in front of the humans and put them into the animals and vice versa 'em because you know that is you know really one of the challenges of working with human people suffering from illnesses you it is very difficult to test causality but we are getting closer actually in the this is you know interesting work that's going on now where you know you can use things like trans cranial magnetic stimulation to actually up regulator later down regulate particular circuits on the brain in the precision isn't great yet but it's getting better and better and so it's not that you know in in you know we of course are thinking about this is a therapeutic as opposed to you know in but there's some really interesting studies going on right now including some at university of pittsburgh again by my colleague ducks price who who's who's looking at whether turning upper turning down orbital frontal cortex activity might actually please help to help people with exposure therapy furrow cd things like that so my guess my question is based on all of this information that were getting about physiologically what's happening in the brain with those city but then also you have this whole side that we started talking about about behaviorally what's happening and so the behavior side of things you could really attack with more counseling and therapy and stuff like that and then there's the the physiological stuff which you could attack other ways kind of hands on so when you're talking about treatment furrow cd does that mean it's like diet and exercise it's like always both right actually yes so it's a it's funny with respect to treatment for a cd it really interesting thing is that so you know we have medications furrow cd 'em in the first line therapy furrow cd is search honoree uptick select search emory uptick inhibitors and it was also a one compliment premium which is not selected and those are the only first time on a therapy furrow cd but they're only effective 'em in upper portion of people like full remission is about ten to fifteen percent and most people get kind of a partial response like forty to fifty percent which could be super helpful but it's not necessarily gonna get you the whole way there and then on the other hand we have exposure therapy which is a behavioral therapy approach which win it's performed correctly end the patient is able to do it which i see it that way because again in the the kind of on the 'em a the the way it's done the mechanism by which works is you kind of step up through a hierarchy of people's those obsessions and compulsions and say okay in this trigger situation now you have to resist junior compulsion an it can be incredibly as you could imagine challenging for people the actually comply with detriment but if people do it it's it can be highly highly effective but so the combination therapy has been shown to be the best in the real world of both are important but it's also really important you when we're thinking about dissecting the biological mechanisms underlying these you know abnormal repetitive behaviors in the lab it's also really important to think about okay we wanna dissect how treatments work when they work and so were doing work to look at you know win serotonin reuptake inhibitors work how are they working in the brain am were also using a model that was generated by another lab doctor great kirk slap where they they're kind of like developing a way way to look at a mechanisms underlying exposure therapy likes things in animals and so then we can think okay how you know we know that that's working for a good proportionate people how might those mechanisms you know be how come we figure out those mechanisms and potentially use that to facilitate treatment to maintain gains help people maintain the gains that they make when they do that kind of therapy whether you're next steps and how can people help so many so many next steps so i mean where so we're engaged in a lot of different work in the lab because we are kind of trying to bridge things animals end and the people so any animal side of things were really interested in exploring the intersection between negative reinforcement anxiety in compulsive behavior 'em and also to were were exploring some potential regions the brain 'em that one is called a it's it's an analog something we call the pre supplementary motor cortex but very involved in planning actions in planning what you do an and we have evidence from another paper we we recently published that this may be hyper acted in a an animal model 'em and so essentially kind of diving into that area little bit more in seen what what might be going on in the brain so those are the kinds of you know those are some of the things that were excited about in the mice on human side we are really diving in to the post mortem brain in in a real way we're really fortunate to get funding from some owes cd organizations in or great work hand 'em end basically what we wanna find out is number one if other regions that have been created no cd such as the bell mess 'em i might have abnormal changes as well and trying to get information about particular molecules that might even be new drug of targets so the foul miss for example is really good at firing rhythmically that's one of the things he does an again this is pure speculation we have no idea what we're gonna see but you could imagine okay so maybe if there is more likelihood that that you know v o c d found this is going to be firing synchronicity this might show up in a molecular signature signature and now that we have be the support to do this were able to look at things in a much more broad spectrum way is posted picking out genes that we think might be important we can actually look across the all the spectrum of be expressed arnaiz is that in and actually see what pops up and then an important thing is you know so far we just looked at gene expression proteins are really important because you know expression how that translates into the protein that's still unclear as well and so you know another another thing that were really interested in is actually walking into the proteins 'em and and seeing if there are proteome exchanges any in the brains of people at a cd versus those who did not 'em and then i had then and then to be able to see whether it like you said a certain percentage of genetic and a certain percentage is not i'm so between individuals what are the different cohorts of changes at ten chilly yeah yeah there's a lot of heterogeneity honest and i think you know were really interested in trying to figure out where that lies that is fantastic end to the other part of the question how can people help you mentioned earlier you have have studies and you're recruiting subject and you also mentioned the brain donation in a couple of images i can put up here to will so branded and it's not something most people think about basis but so i want to strongly encourage anyone out there who is ewing 'em you know real we think about it in talk to other people and try and get them to think about it you so 'em in it's something that i didn't really understand the logistics of at all until i was here at this institution so the really simplest most straightforward thing to do is go to brain donor project dot org that has all the information you need to know about how to how to think about doing this 'em one thing that's really important realizes if you've checked you're organ donor card that does not include you bring yeah why not that's miller in oregon brain transplants are currently not yet on came out and said i didn't i didn't actually realize that ogan organ donation a check box was only for transplant like i needed a thing right then exactly yeah so in its in its really 'em essentially i think it's it's it's difficult unless you've organize it ahead of time it's difficult in those kinds of situations in which organ donation is typically at play to court innate both the brain donation a donation of the recipe oregon's at the same time because of course for organ donation and it's really crucial to get those organs out as quickly as you can in order the transplant the freshest most healthiest oregon that you possibly can into the person who's receiving it and you know in but again if there's advance planning and you wanna do both both of these things it is possible it's just set the teams have to work together so the people who are who are getting organs for 'em for a transplant it they don't have the expertise to remove the brain and preserve it in the way hey that needs to be done in order to get good high quality branch issue for the kinds of studies that were doing 'em so yeah so it's just important to have forethought in in kind of decided to make that a make that decision an also for family members you know it can be yeah it's it's a distressing time for many people when this issue comes up of weather not did you watch you know you're you're a loved one sprain spraying to be taken for research like this 'em in so if you want to do this is a really good idea to talk to your family about this end to to kind of get all the answers that they might want about it and it's fairly important to realize that we need all kinds of brands we need an you know brains across the spectrum healthy brain's not healthy brands and you know but without that really precious resource we just can't do the work that that were trying to do to identify these molecular molecular potential causes of things like a cd another psychiatric illnesses a so i feel like this is this is a need that maybe some somebody he needs to figure out a nonprofit i dunno but there's so many people out there i'm one of them that says i wanna donate my buddy decided yet whether that means actually could be a million different things you could end up in a body far would you be super cool you you're i could give you my parade which would be awesome i get trained doctors which would be amazing rate but there's all these kind of different menu options and i don't even know how to go about saying i want this year and that's good theron just using whatever science deems bet like there needs to be some sort of coordinated effort here because chances are a body farm maybe doesn't need a brain in the body for some of it that they're doing right so you could get the brain and they could still go study maggots it living in those so i would be totally it could be a coordinated effort for science to get all the different parts from somebody that's passionate about it yup whole body and it is only on shows like science where you'll hear somebody extremely excited about the possibility of donating their body to a body farm i go kicking a field trip i would love yeah but the last one also in order to make these donations a it's best to the while you're still living yeah a secret saying we need a plan you need a good before you die little too late if you're like okay i'm done with my body now i will give it to oh wait it's too late eight exactly and that way you know as we the coordination is hard and yet the woman who who started the the organization bring down a project of it it is totally nonprofit it was like she actually had the experience of her her father passed away from i believe it was frontal temporal dementia and she wanted to donate his sprayed he wanted to donate his brain but she was having an incredibly difficult time figuring out how to make that happen at so her name's just shovel and so she took it upon herself to just start this project and try and coordinated efforts across the country and and really make this happen so in its yeah so it's a fantastic resource and i highly recommend it in the end it's very useful to you injure research suzanne thank you so much for joining us tonight i know it's very late where you are at this point in time what about o c d so much of people don't want me to talk about you now we read it is yeah where can people find you online you have a twitter account lab has a twitter account end also if they're interested in finding out more about you're studies work and they go yeah so we have a web page w www dot amari lab dot e d u i believe i will check i will get you'd be exact information and for that but yes yeah i'm already lab at the university of pittsburgh okay amar lab at the university of pittsburgh and we will have links on her website on it and you'll be able to find you but yes we will make that available once again thank you so much for joining us tonight it is just been wonderful dating in on been great it's been awesome now i'm wondering if by my compulsion my fear of the subway series i'm afraid of jumping in of pushing somebody or being pushed i said i would get so distracted that it'd be in the middle of a conversation all of a sudden all be above whether the deep thoughts that will keep justin up tonight all right it's time to go to a break everyone this is this week in science thank you for joining us for the first half of our show we've got science news still the come in the second half eight to four more in new mold show a show and thank you for listening to this week in science i'm so glad that you chose to to enjoy your day with us tillis in the us to watch us thank you for bringing us endear lies we hope that we are bringing you something valuable if you do think that what we're doing here is valuable maybe take a little moment to consider supporting what we 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it's gotten me a job in aside tallaght lab end i'm so excited to start yeah glad you're excited i hope it's an awesome experience she says also the promise of a vaccine for all timers disease makes me getty that so there's there is actual applicable science affect their science degree science learning job there you go there's all the promise what will science do what is research now going to bring us and i say will it is will this is something that is going to happen i mean we can't say oh five or ten years you know we don't know exactly when it's gonna happen but the research is moving that direction and and yeah i see i see so jessica thank you for your what science has done for you lately because it's true it's what's you know it does her so many of us if you have an idea of what science is done for you lately this week last week today send me an email cure ston at this week in science dot com or leave us message on facebook that messes facebook message button and a little note and will be able to reach her story you're idea you're thought on the show and we appreciate you keeping this part of the show going we can't do this part of the show so without you all right let's jump into the science are we ready for this okay we are going to do this let's get this thirty forty five minutes real half of the show yeah we do it yeah okay researchers publishing in nature communications this week they study researchers from temple university school louis cats school of medicine and also university of nebraska medical call center have worked together is this collaboration two teams working on different things with relation to hiv one team was working on an tie retro viral therapy and so if you if you're familiar with hiv pay people people take the entire retroviral therapy drug cocktail to keep their virus in check so they don't get sick and neither drugs they if you have hiv you pretty much have to take these drugs for the rest of your life however it's group came up with the new kind of twist on art art entire retro viral therapy they call it laser art and yes long acting slow affective active release entire retro viral it's not really it's not real lasers but what it it's a good time release its these drugs that are there instead of going in and there's all the drug and and they have their half life and they wear off over time these are long lasting and slow effective so they're they're more of a time release kind of system they stay in the system longer and so suppress the virus with in keep it within the cells cells so it's not replicating longer that was one part of team they've been working on this thing on their own and then another team had been working on crisper cast nine going maybe we can identify the hiv genes in be chromosomes and figure out how to use crisper cast nine to edit them out and so then the teams came together and they're like what if we did this and they worked together over several years and they humanized mice which means they took mice and then they gave them t cells which respond to what you're human t cells basically they respond to human viruses and a human treatments treatments and so they're called humanized not human mice they're human i might cause of this particular t cell aspect of their immune system these diesels are susceptible the hiv human induced a the the human immunodeficiency virus end so the two teams they're like all right where we're gonna we're gonna try different confirmations were gonna do this laser art and were gonna be like hey let's give him that and see what happens it puts the hiv asleep for a little while but then it rebounds and so they still have issues and then they're like well what if we do a repeated laser where we give it to them multiple types and they wanna do that and then they were like let's do that with the crisper cast nine so we try to cut the hiv out well the viruses sleeping one third of the mice that they treated over a series of experiments are completely cleared of the hiv virus that's yes so inhuman experiments and human things we've had two people in the entire world as a result of a of therapies like a where they go in and they they switched they switch things around 'em not remember they made thirty two people in the world of basically had their hiv cleared out of their systems because they had i think it was they had bone marrow transplants where the t cells and things were replaced had been had been switched up genetically 'em this is a small study a third of the mice it's not a hundred percent so there's still things they don't understand about winning is effective and when it is not about a third they find absolutely they looked at all sorts of issues in their bodies they looked at their genes and they couldn't find hiv so i i my question about this would be when jumping from may small mouth study to human trials obviously it's not there yet but in a way what would you have to lose a legitimate question actually asking like what could possibly go wrong with the crisper cast nine gene editing trial where it has proven successful in life what can go wrong so question number one is crisper cast nine is it going to be accurate inefficient there's the question of whether there will be off target effects in the mouse study they found zero off target affects so we don't know if it'll act the same in the human genome though we don't know if it'll cut as accurately and the human genome for whatever reason so you know you need attested 'em but they're not gonna jump directly the researchers fears are currently working on primate studies great so they're doing these experiments in more closely related organism to humans yeah end in one where it's you know these mice had to be given these t cells that are susceptible to hiv right in a in primate studies they have simian immunodeficiency virus so it's a completely be a self contained system that is running kind of in parallel it's similar to the human disease systems so it's the primate model could actually be a much more accurate model than what were what they're looking at and the mice so that hopefully a paper will be coming out in even by the end of the year we don't know let's say let's say remember to when we were talking about these off target affects a is there's very few drugs become side effects you're talking about it yeah yeah good point they have these off target facts and they're like no solemn anyway just telling yeah you know and and when they do like if you see these laundry list of potential side effects when you're seeing the disclaimer on a drug it's not necessarily gonna get all of them it's that there's a lot of things it they saw in the trials and they don't don't know why a otherwise they could potentially have eliminated them from paying off target effects so yeah i mean if if anything is this with these end it's hard to say it started were talking about no off target effects in a mouse who cannot tell you that they remember where they left their keys there there there's there's problems that way as well 'em right so we yeah we don't know if if there are other side effects from the treatment of from all of the tests that they did and they did a lot they didn't see any side effects the by still behaved like mice 'em the tissues to still looks like normal tissues 'em yeah will see we will see but this is a very interesting what they're calling it as a proof of concept andy it's the it's a interesting starting point to see you know is this you know this is a an interesting question can we would with diseases like this where it's this is a virus it takes itself and puts it self in are gino this isn't a question of messing with human genes this is can we use crisper cast nine and other the other drugs in whatever we have to clean a disease of virus out of are gino can we cut it out it's it's an interesting question i yeah yeah we will see so far so good a and then moving on from hiv i have a very a very short yet interesting story about probing atmospheres nasa is wonderful it looking out into the universe in a one of are a nearby fish hundred hundred light years or so away star a solar system called liaised z we've talked about it before has several exo planets orbiting around this this star one of the world's in the glazing system three four seven zero be to be exact it's kind of weird it's like wants to be earth got a rocky core but it's kind of like i wanna be a gas giant also an so it's not it's like i i'm like my math is not earthy but it's not as big as neptune either kind of this weird in between space and i don't know who i am and so humble and spitzer telescopes took a look look at this exo planet end delved into its atmosphere which is one of the first times that we've ever really looked at an exo planet atmosphere before which is a you know in itself a huge step so this planet is it has its atmosphere in it is composed of mostly hydrogen and helium so it's kind of like are son accepted the planet yeah and so it fits very well it's it's pretty close to it star in they think what happened is it formed close so star in that at grabbed onto be ring of dust in gas that was kind of clumping up as the glee ac system three four seven zero system was being put together and it would maybe had enough gravity because of its rocky court to grab a bunch of the gas that was in this prime ordeal disk and it didn't lose all of it because it had enough gravity 'cause it has this 'cause i guess like earth kind of massive massive enough to hold onto an atmosphere end the gas is relatively light but it didn't end up puffing up didn't grab all the gas is because it wasn't quite big enough and it was close to the star and the star itself is probably burning off some of those gas is as it was grabbing adding onto the gas and so it ended up with this thin atmosphere instead of turning into a hot jupiter it's kind of a no neptune or should i call it met tune my yeah definitely that one that one yet so it's still pretty small but it hasn't atmosphere which is very interesting in it gives us another look at a planet beyond are own solar system within atmosphere to ask an even potentially answer more questions about how planets form how some planets turned into gas giants and others just gain atmospheres so were looking beyond it's pretty cool pretty neat to glean z and beyond and then when james webb space telescope ever gets out there maybe in two years now no you know it'll be able to look at it more closely yeah wasn't supposed to go out there pretty soon after we had that interview in baltimore the yeah oh well were waiting were were waiting patiently is we can can always waiting just in i do not need a burger right now but please tell me what i'm missing okay so a this is the future of loud and made foods foods and the potential downside a is that people won't buy them so we are by others like ben convinced that meat is murder a not necessarily today animal that's the survival of these top of the food chain as well but it's really bad environment resources overuse are contributing massively to global warming a one of the reasons that people are afraid of the resistance to lab designed food that wouldn't require the same resources is that it is not produced in natural way these people have probably never seen the manufacturing floor of a food processing calling her a and you make that food is naturally a made her produced in any way no be breakfast sausage that you are praying up in the morning wasn't from a fat farm pig that farmer olga pick because it had gotten plumping out for the practice faced then level we hugged the death arvin choice it's under sanitary conditions no this is not how this takes place it's in some dirty warehouse where lots of a blood from the couch is there a thirty seconds before our still on the ground and another one is going down this is it's just brutal process and then it goes to a place and they said suits maybe it's the right time well the mind also what part of the chicken is the nuggets from right so you have all the question of the processing after that yes so in the near future though we may be able to iser come up with aj synthetic meat product that is manufactured factured by microbes or hey we may be able to mass produce and they similar method a meat directly from animal cells they bio reactor a that would sees the world from be negative effects of raising a cattle and poultry and pork a with the massive amounts of water and land in niger resources and everything else goes into writing in frontiers in nutrition researchers warned the most common a common media framing of cultured meat as they high tech innovation as cutting edge thing may actually be less least effective way to get people to accept it because of course if people don't buy into this it will never happen don't you think if if you if you marketed as a meat alternatives like a vegetarian products at might actually gained a lot of traction like be impossible burger right that's gaining traction everywhere impossible burger is a but these would still be animals so right which is where it gets weird because like over i example don't eat red meat but being deemed not be a buyer metal tax so so this is environmentally but then there's this whole eggs existential issue of like is it meet i mean technically yes chemically it's meat but it didn't come from an animal so it's actually the animal animal labron he'd be ideas they animal cruelty ideas aren't there anymore because it sells meet it sells its lab grown sells its self culture it's similar to so many systems we already have in place where cells bacteria algae other things are vat grown 'em it allows for a certain removal of that concern end if it's a lot of stuff taking place in one place maybe that would make me do the need for resources so this is basically a paraphrase the cook a from we'd author christopher bryant university university a bathroom says cultured meat has the potential reduced the ethical environmental public health burdens associated with conventional livestock farming a and then a co author the doctor courtney deliver portland state university a and bryant assessed how framing de cultured meat as an innovation which benefit society one for a high tech development or as very similar machel main affected the attitudes behaviors hebrew intentions the people people who were being presented with so they did climbing basically this is in a an alternative a this is high tech this is basically the same as what you've already done a they put this in front of eighty a foreigner lady a people eighty eight percent were meat eaters we had a twelve percent a vegetarian context and they found that those who encountered cultured meat through the high tech priming had significantly more negative attitudes towards begins concept and were much less willing to consume it high tech framing group or at least likely would consider culture make safe healthier environmentally friendly the rated themselves some average fourteen percent less likely the try cultured meat compared to the social side benefits or famous meet groups so a kind of interesting about this is that foreign eighties i think a decent sample size the idea that they just the way they presented the framing of it could drastically alter people's reactions i'm not mad because people hate the the idea of gmo's right even though pretty much all of the food that we eat is genetically modified so that's a whole silly thing but they're like i don't want any breaking foods and it's kind of the same right and that's what the framing inside their town in framing messaging yeah how can how can we talk about this with the public and have them react in a positive way suggested win it's there are multiple publix and so they're gonna have to be multiple messages and that's things that this is not genetically modified so yeah man like showing of gmo's the concern this is their kids sociation with science and synthetic a bad if it's like oh here's the way they keep keep having to use resources and kill animals you know that's a great idea so a human's they're really not rational creatures a new crash right yeah slash from their take me in tier science that they were already had the other story so the best way not to worry about a thing is not look at the details of the thing too closely or or if that's still still not enough you could hire highly trained people look at the details for you so you don't actually have to and then you just assume highly trained people have looked at this it'll be fine but what if the highly trained people who schumer looking at details actually aren't looking at them at all not a problem is like if you don't know you still don't have to worry but of course the reason you were worried and didn't wanna think about the details too much because they were so worrisome and so the fact that you're not thinking about them isn't the point the point is there's something to worry about an end you split actually be ignorant about how little you know until you hear that i'm talking about the food and drug administration and the fact that these highly trained people don't seem to be able to get the details of any food or drug regulations you assumed it was involved in the things that you're eating the jacket you were taking it this way no big deal no big deal is long as you don't care how things are made eight or what goes into your body or what might potentially so this is a you know ed after complaints enforcement a f for a looking over and monitoring how food is prepared how drugs manufactured what is there is not safe for public consumption and according to charles wheeler and this is a he's contributing correspondent in the news department at science a they're down a third of their investment of their winning so there there is it duct when it comes to supervision regulation of clinical trials food safety product recalls medications medical devices other things they do warning letters they flag violations a saying okay this is a dangerous food that's a dangerous medical device you should pull this off the market you should relook at this where you know warning warning warning we have a problem those down a third since the current administration has taken place in there actually down a their training down from the first year to the second year a this is also 'em were also looking at a time when you sd eight a which also has a similar regulations and research into what is or is not impactful go to our environment their livestock and the rest of it is being told widely on mass to move to kansas or get fired in two weeks so we have a very interesting dismantling of protections of food that we eat which which brings me back to the story that i was bringing up before you have scientist making your food in a lab under mission where they a hundred percent pure were there where where where it is highly controlled environment virement a no one you wanna regulatory organism like they asked me to be doing its job yes they all have the in a giant battered by reactor and not try to legislate from the office it hasn't been built yet that they're supposed to move doing kansas a or get fired just do away with u s t a n f k that doesn't seem to be being prompted to do and they don't know why i'm bringing into it but they you only see the b b reports that e f g h puts out are down and when a when asked if there is a written statement from their dna that did not dispute the findings of the report so they're not mickey counter argument to say yep that's what's happening right then explain why that's why nope just yup when were not doing as much as we did yeah oh yeah okay well fingers crossed that things will turn around exactly thinking of turning around i think i know what time it is you know i don't wanna hear about the movie oh lord shrine which job to find the good news stories raised this week so the first have is about white nose syndrome and bats we've talked about it on the show several times but it is a problem this is not the good news part of the story it's coming why no syndrome almost destroyed by populations across eastern north america it is showing no signs of stopping 'em it spreads in the winter it causes bats to leave their roof string hibernation it's a fungus we've discovered since they started reporting on it in the fungus kills the bats over several months the depletes their bats sets the bat fat stores say that much on fat and when it depletes the fat stores it forces them to expend more energy on finding food in the winter when they're normally sleeping so that is what eventually killed the bat they die of starvation or exposure to the cold the specifically the little brown bat northern along that indiana bat and try colored that populations have declined seventy ten ninety nine percent across forty four states since two thousand six so this fungus is wreaking havoc a lot of these bats are now considered functionally extinct they do not fulfill their role in the environment any longer so this is a big problem but a new study from virginia tech and you see santa cruz who is looking at these impacts of pro biotics on white knows a they found found the overall it did reduce the impact of the disease so they did this in two stages which i think is really interesting so the first thing they did is they actually had an awesome natural kind of wild cohort that they treated so this isn't abandoned mine in wisconsin they tested the advocacy of ebay 'em bacteria pseudomonas fluorescence 'em so people are sitting in two simultaneous experiments so in one of them the the bats were cage those controlled at another they were free flying so they were all tagged with passive integrated transponder p p i t a pitch protect 'em which allowed researchers to identify and keep track of these individuals over the time end they wanna see what happened when the bats had freedom of movement when they could go out into the natural field in and when they could interact with environment like they wouldn't normally vs when they're held in a cage what they saw was that treatment with this bacteria lengthen the amount of time that bats stayed in the mine when they had the option to leave so this delayed emergence time which ultimately is what they think it'd be the final kicker in what killed that from white no syndrome so the delayed emergence time puts the bath emerging closer the spring when they're more insects available which gives them a greater chance of survival in recovery in the cage experimented there individuals they got really sick end 'em that influenced survival estimates but they found the amount of fat the bat had would be only important factor predicting their survival in the cage trial not how infected they were so if they were in fact it all it would appear that they were waking up they stirring they were needing more nutrients and so it depends on how much fat they had on them but be level of infection didn't seem to matter in the free flying experiment there controls only had ten percent survivability of while their treatment group had fifty percent survivability so they're considering the five fold increase in survivability which is huge they were thinking of ways at the probiotic treatment could be developed for a the wild for a more increased east application or trial 'em so currently researchers are testing to see if pairing probiotics of other treatments some of which we've talked on the show could increase arrival even more on since a lot of you are probably wondering i had to do do a pretty deep dive into the paper to figure out exactly how they were treating deep baptist pro biotics no they're not giving them yogurt a they actually do a spray a liquid spray onto their wings to apply the pro biotic which it's interesting because their control they don't spray at all because their control is they thought was a treatment vs no treatment not type of draymond so in this particular study they didn't get a wet spray at all if they were control and so a okay so the ones in cages didn't get the spray so the bats in cages and the bats free flying both got both treatments that okay but so they want it to see kind of what ultimately what's killing the bat and it appeared that when they were free flying it would be active going outside searching for food exhausting themselves getting cold which would then stress their systems potentially end also because they're flying and if they don't catch food than their depleting their fat stores any though they're less able to protect themselves amina logically yeah yeah yeah so interesting stuff provider or not deliver us yeah so we should just go spray caves swiss bacteria i mean we could yeah that would be socially yeah go there was one of those a sprayers it used to spray fertilizer on your lawn just just spray all of the bat and be on your way it could actually work and that could be a thing that happens though i do like other wings yeah 'em next let's move onto the other a good news story that i year 'em a turtle may savior life but it may save your life where you are again when you are suffering from heart attack let me explain what this doesn't make any sense that heaver university of manchester university of north texas and this is looking at snapping turtles end specifically why they can survive up to six months without oxygen so in the wild these guys will be under a frozen ice that sometimes they'll be underwater they'll they'll find all these situations where these turtles will be a without access to air for up to six months 'em end so how are these turtles making it through a really good holding their breath yeah basically so yes but why is the question so this study looked at these embryonic living heart and how it can be programmed to survive low oxygen environments as a dull yes so this is looking specifically at juvenile common snapping turtles in how biological mechanisms early in life help them survive later on in low oxygen environments so low oxygen during embryonic developments specifically way way way way way early during embryonic development being low oxygen programs the animals hearts to be resilient to hypoxia and that resilience last for the rest of their wives so hypoxia is also what happens to a human during heart attack and it can also damaged her heart drink transplant surgery so knowing how to how to use this on humans could have a huge impact on a on the quality of life at even staying being alive for a lot of humans so a high powered hypoxia dern development in these turtles actually causes efi genetic changes to the gino it turns jeans honor off that are key to be ability of the turtle to tolerate zero oxygen so is it soon real wax didn't are they able to really low jim absorption it's really low the skin absorption isn't really part of it because when you think about 'em when you think about a year rate that's a little bit of something but ultimately it's not enough it's not enough to completely supplement fame turtles kim do which is like most non but it's not it's not a liberal after the lakers and said yeah no i think the i think that's important no we know that turtles can absorb oxygen through the skin in their amos a but they it's not like having gills known it it's certainly not and it's not like having amphibians skin where you're entire body is performing that so it's not enough to supplement a fully developed heart and circulatory system just with that so when we've heard of it it's like what river turtles will go die for like you know an hour but this is six months which so this is this is a a totally different level 'em so this is a looking at these specific epigenetics signatures that help turtles survive in lois environments 'em they isolated heart muscle cells from juvenile turtles which lifted embryos embryos and either normal levels of oxygen which is twenty one percent or half levels of action which is ten percent this mimicked what happens in nature so eggs at the bottom of the turtles nets are more exposed hypoxia so some turtles are more used to it and others what happens as they suggest should be juvenile turtles so lower levels of oxygen they measured interest cellular calcium which runs a the the proteins in the heart in the my filaments the ph in their reactive oxygen species so this is a very active auction species are molecules which can become toxic when tissue free oxygenated too quickly so basically they monitored all this stuff going on inside of their heart when they show the early exposure die pox hypoxia in these animals reduce the amount of reactive oxygen species that could protect them from damage in allows them chicken track a contraction normally the hearts of contract normally in the complete absence of oxygen so if we had a drug that was able to switch on mechanisms to protect the human heart firm oxygen deprivation that could be huge to humans right especially americans the number one cause of death in america is some sort of heart disease so that would be a pretty significant breakthrough if these turtles could tell us how to even temporarily help with a high toxic environment in your yeah that would be amazing turtles i love this research for two different levels though where it's at this is just telling us about this really interesting aspect of turtle physiology physiological a logical development right where just learning this is interesting thing that happens in turtles but we could learn from it and potentially if we could turn these things on in our own bodies it could have similar effects yeah maybe we learn from the turtles there's something years back oh but you know what researchers right now they're also trying to learn from mold ends mega i did we bring it there i feel like we brought up there right yeah apparently apparently it is a pretty big problem that a mold grows there's a lot on the international space station in leave her sandwich out again you know he karen may have a yeah so they're apparently there are areas where where moisture builds up because you know they have it's all a closed system if there is any moisture it's gonna stay there on the inside not going into the electronics hopefully right in mold gets into surfaces is in potentially a just start growing and so mold is a big problem on the inside of the space station grows on everything end so researchers decided they want it to look look at some of these species of mold that have grown very well on the space station in they took a common black mold called asper jealous niger grows on the space station very well end so of course he decided let's let's expose it to radiation and we wanna see how much radiation these things can take his molding space like could it have gone between or could travel to mars with this could we take my mold dot mars so quote unquote researchers fired stupid amounts of radiation at this mold so my own share it with feminine interview but yes the technical term it's stupid amounts so 'em ed there's the the terminology for thee measurement of amount of absorbed radiative energy is called the gray people get radiation sickness at point five gray they get killed when they're exposed to five gray these spores of asper jealous niger survived five hundred to a thousand gray hey depending on the type of radiation they're supposed to you're supposed to a bunch of different kinds of radiation but they were they survived a whole bunch they survived large amounts of high energy ultraviolet radiation which is what is is used as hospital disinfected a bit is used or has been proposed to be used to sterilize the surface of spacecraft so hold on one mold isn't firmer this earth i mean it is biologically genetically it it is part of these dna family tree that we've got going on that goes but maybe that's the panspermia when you're maybe mold if they survive that then you know could could hitch a ride on something and then end up here yeah and there are there are states that have never going to get the default would be working at hood a cabinet that has been used by anybody in the congo is obviously even living jamming light on overnight is not gonna do it yeah not going to do it now a the researcher who did this work marta quite a salad microbiology after the german aerospace centre in cologne and her her she was quoted as saying we will have spores with the spurs sure inner space travels funky have been forgotten for the past twenty or thirty years but it is time to go back to them yes we need to find out a yeah so these said there is an older study that says that suggests the mold spores my resist radiation even better in a vacuum so hey not just on the inside of the craft but only outside yeah thinking yeah yeah so anyway we really need to take a look at the stuff that we may be taking without an my last story quickly for the night is if you're gonna exercise hey no that you really are doing something good for your brain researchers from oregon health sciences university discovered a gene in mice that gets turned on with exercise and not like marathon running type exercise but in what they call a short about of exercise something equivalent to about four thousand steps or pretty vigorous game of basketball one on one basketball or something this gene that got turned on it's called t f s one l it had previously not stood out in studies in the brain these researchers they're like hey exercise they look at the body all the time we wanna know what's happening here in the brain mss mts that's one al includes approaching that leads to the development of dendritic spines on neurons in an area of the brain called the hippocampus so what they think okay dendritic spines are the places where synopsys form it's so if you have more synopses you have more connectivity so the location of the brain is is indicative of what that activity might be related to the hippocampus is involved in learning and memory and so short bursts of exercise might be enough to prime of your brain to learn in your number partial better like four thousand steps man a four thousand come on down a little bit came up three minutes not three minutes now not three minutes but were talking like maybe you could do this and like wani minutes fifteen minutes twenty minutes four thousand along vigorous tony vigorous fifteen to twenty minutes of exercise great could be turning on your campus getting those neurons runs in their ready for more activity learning and memory great you know i i do workouts many mornings and it's usually about twentyfive minutes end a lately i've noticed sometimes i wake up with a headache and my headache school sometimes go way which i realize is not related to this really at all but i just recognize that it's part of my brain right so it just felt circulation it's about you know movement it's about all that kind of stuff but it's a good reminder that you're brain is part of your whole body and your brain needs health just like the rest of your body but what you do with your body can benefit year brain yeah yeah anyone get quick story do you know that crocodiles were once vegetarian know what you have to go way back about two hundred million years but it turns out new fossils looking at around a hundred and forty six teeth from sixteen crooked deal of forms 'em looked at by university of utah identifies yes these were not just carnivora teeth these appear to be teeth that that eat vegetables yeah so they were non carnivorous end 'em it looks like and now they eighties in now she sure but yeah not only that eight plants occasionally but they were actually herb ever as crocodile of forms so not just eating both but eating just plants so this means there are there were lots of different types of crocodilian or around and the meat eaters one out but they weren't always that way on a team led by an nuba jamie science lab in labs energy storage and distributed resources division has collected three point three million abstracts a published millet materials on science papers that have been then fed to an algorithm called the word to back this is taking basically a hundred years the facts in nineteen twelve up to the current day a and they feel the word doesn't papers were more filed each week material science is an and then this thing and had it just read it and see what it could do with out specific instructions a that telling it anything about material science it learned concepts like the periodic table crystal still structure of metals said james the hit to the potential of the technique but probably the most interesting thing we figured out is you can use this algorithm to addressed caps materials research things that people should have studied at seven play but i haven't gotten around to a paper establishes that text mining of scientific literature king cover hidden knowledge and that pure text based extraction tim establish basic scientific knowledge says cedar one of the people that are in this study 'em yes if you review textbooks you could learn something shouldn't be surprising interesting that this robot was able to they so they put it in three point three million abstracts this a machine learning read a all this is between a nineteen twenty two and twenty eighteen hey came up where not only like credit go back and say pretty good degree of certainly picked ten materials that it thought would be good good thermo electric a vast came up with these ten some of which were already working on some of which we haven't looked at because they're very rare very toxic and you eat maybe haven't considered so it made some predictions they said okay that's that's close but then they did something which i find very interesting they cut off a v texted they fed it to the year two thousand the see if they could predict what we we discovered since two thousand in the last eighteen years top production is a turned up a bit turned out to be things that were showing up in later steadies for nine then if the materials had just been chosen at random for example brantley top five predictions trained using the data a up to the year two thousand they have since been discovered and the remaining two are a are things that are are rats so which is what this what this makes me think is you know this is great for future you know coming up with ideas for future studies because basically people reid literature and they come up with ideas first study is because of what they learn and so that's what this computer algorithm did is it read a bunch of studies and said these are possible things so a little bit more it read all of the study done end by we've been kind of it's it's like it was able to extract relationships between frequency of words how closely they were associated with each other and created a they're calling it two hundred dimensional abstract a factor of how this information related to its other bits of information and they constructed to the point where it could predict materials that hadn't been discovered up to the point of that of that level of research which which i'm glad they did the backwards on because then it could give them confidence using it this going forward with this was not eight eighty eight learning system for new materials in a specific that's just what they said it means you could feed this thing a potentially any large data set of of science discipline of papers within eight is narrow the gap as you know produced millions of papers having been written on end it could make predictions and it might be able to like give you fill in gaps that nobody has studied yet yeah that's pretty incredible that is they act the machine learning it looks like it has some really great that's that's great to hear you say they can give you a very skeptical of the machine learning machine i'm skeptical of the deep learning thing the one where were you have to give it all of the things in advance what's what's a really fascinating about this system they created this they didn't teach you how to treat any came up west learning it put those things together itself that's the thing that's the version of this you know a big data a machine learning that that has that exciting feel to it is the thing where you could tell it what to do and figures it out when you tell it everything they do it's gonna be limited by the import yeah there was another one this last last week a researchers did a they created eight system to stimulate the universe to try and figure out the structures in the universe and they're trying to improve upon past computer models were stimulating the universe but in this particular situation it modeled the universe it's much better than the last models that have been done an it predicted things like dark matter end they don't understand how the program came up with the or is coming up with the things that it's coming up west so there's there's this interesting feedback where the computers coming up with stuff that they didn't really expect it to and they go back and figure it out yeah so this is a quote from jane actually this is this which is echoing what you just said i honestly didn't expect the algorithm to be so predictive of future results i had thought maybe i could be descriptive of what people had don before but not come up with these different connections as pretty surprised when i saw not only the predictions but also the reasoning behind the predictions a things like at you at throughout the half a slew structure which is a really hot crystal structure for their mo electric she's just so important out like i did not like this one not the scope of what we were doing this thing exceeded a their project it's exciting is that do it actors all right everyone we have come to the end of our show it's a good long one but so full of good information so much good stuff this week thank you co hosts for an amazing show thanks for doing this with me thank you to fight after helping in the chat room monitoring things over and argue to chat thank you for helping with the social media and the show notes thank you to identity for for recording the show thanks gourd furby in are chat room guy over at the twist chat room in a big thank you to our patriotic sponsors wanna think paul disney richard automous dyer ed andy gross to pilot phillip shane can hayes harrison prather charlene henry joshua furious steve develop alex wilson tony steel craig landon mark reserves jack matthew when jason robards bill k bob called her time jumper three one nine eric nap richard brian condron dave neighbor uber gene kelly hey john grittily david williams kerman benton adam will enjoy sarah chavis rodney tiffany boy john bertram mountains last set of grab any stephan over on john retina swami safe 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