20 Episode results for "Teke"

101 The Way of Craftsmanship

Making A Masterpiece of Your Life Podcast

29:30 min | 2 years ago

101 The Way of Craftsmanship

"I don't look at other people's work for your creation. Don't look outside. Look in if you look at other people's work work not within yourself. You're only imitating. The challenge is with each new work to create a new part of yourself a new being lenore. Tawny Textile Crafts woman artist to turn a vision of oneself self into a tangible result requires commitment skills and the right tools for the job. This is making a masterpiece in your life. The way of craftsmanship the idea of practicing life is is a single unified craft the way across person mindfully practices a structured trade like textile weaving woodworking or software coding requires -quires that the myriad activities of life be systematically organized managed taught and learned in a manner similar to the ways in which we manage each teacher trades occupations and professions so we asked how do we teach and learn our trades and professions for thousands of of years humankind is practice countless trades and occupations from carpentry in stone masonry to the baker's art and computer programming each successive asa generation of practitioners from the young apprentice to the skilled journeyman to the master craftsman has grown and nurtured their crafts from simple beginnings innings into highly refined arts and sciences over time as each craft becomes more widely known in practiced an individual or a group of persons arises to record catalog and preserve the body of knowledge developed by practitioners of the craft they labor to describe live the features and compare the diverse techniques methods procedures and tools not to mention jealously guarded secrets of the craft as it is practiced any balls from place to place and over time from this experience calm the teachers individuals dedicated to the preservation of the knowledge and development lamented craft schools are is we're in the systematically recorded practices are carefully taught and the knowledge and the skills of each apprentice this are carefully measured and tested for proficiency in each area of the craft at the appointed time after years of hard work and study comes the crass person's journey work the time to go into the world armed with knowledge and the skill to use the tools of the trade and to distinguish lose oneself as a journeyman or journey woman in the applied practice of craftsmanship. What is craftsmanship at the center of craftsmanship is an attitude of mind which continually strive for perfection it is also skillful use and control of the tools of the craft and mastery of the materials orioles have the craft while taking care never to abuse either craftsmanship reveals the best of the natural characteristics in charm of each craft and enhances their appeal to the Craftsperson and the admire the point at which craftsmanship becomes art might be described as a moment in time when the creative spirit of the crafts person is incomplete harmony with the perfection of skillful execution the result out of the crafts persons attitude of mind this brings full pleasure not only from the creation the finish work but also from the process the manner in which it was done. It is a way of doing it is. A way of living craftsmanship is one of the highest highest qualities revered by the human spirit since the beginning of recorded time it is a quality understood by all cultures regardless of language religious belief or period of time and craftsmanship indoors long after one has traveled the journey of life. It is immoral. It is a universal value value both human and divine which speaks for itself its presence is self evident the moment one encounters at weather through the superior work of Craftsperson or the life of one who conducts himself or herself as a true craftsperson. What is a craftsperson. The craftsperson is one who's concerned first and foremost with balance and perfection. The craftsperson is the prime source of those find find things by which life is enriched the crafts person is the guardian of the highest standard of quality endurance urine in both design and function measure the skill of today's Craftsperson as it has in the past the complete crafts person is one who is equally skilled in all the elements of their craft most are usually advanced in their years. They're skill and knowledge firmly rooted in long and broad experience craftsmanship traditions. The way of craftsmanship is not confined. Just to the knowledge and skills associated with traditional artisanry craftsmanship knows no boundaries and can be applied to any way of working and living it is the focusing principle for lining one's thoughts and actions resulting in skillful execution execution and successfully practicing life as a craft however the way of craftsmanship is built on a foundation of tradition talk show. Corinne the Japanese word for craftsmen. He shocking shokhin in implies is that skills are used to their fullest potential and that one is dedicated to the craft for the welfare of the community in the words of Tassio that tame the Japanese woodworking legend the Japanese apprentice is talk that Shokhin in means not only having technical skills but also implies an attitude of social consciousness. The Shokhin has a social obligation to work his or her a best for the general welfare of the people. This obligation is both spiritual and material in that no matter what it is the Shokhin's responsibility is to fulfil the requirement in Japan the most accomplished Shokhin earned earned the title of Takumi to truly appreciate these honors one must understand the philosophy and dedication required to achieve them not least that many a highly skilled craftsmen spend their entire lies dedicated to their work yet failed to achieve these titles rather the title of show keen is only only earned through an uncompromising relentless devotion to a pursuit art or activity at highly advanced levels disciples observe what their teacher does as an achieve mastery through as malls there is no room for complacency. This philosophy known as cody can only ever recur when total focus is given to the subject matter when a breach of a standard is unthinkable and compromise is intolerable the Japanese unease believed that quota worry maintains quality in life and allows the rest of us to enjoy a better standard of living the idea is that if if new mountain peaks were not continuously set none would be reached and we would all languish in the depths of insignificance in this reference the theme of social contribution as a principal of the practice of craftsmanship is reinforced that's to say the craftsmanship is not only concerned with the effective ones work upon one's own self but the impact of that work upon the community and the world around us in the book making a masterpiece of your life element one family heritage embodies this principle in so far as the craft worked undertaken during our lifetime is the heritage or record marking our contribution upon the community and the world around us in the present and the foundation. We leave future generations to build upon by this. We don't mean the crass person must strive to alter society it scale rather it means as in when individuals and communities at large come into contact with the CRAFTSMAN's uh-huh work product in whatever way that may occur the result of the encounter as intended by the person would contain the message. I did this for all of us. techni technique is the Greek for craftsmanship craft or art throat. Plato's dialogues as characters frequently cite Techni as a way of illustrating important points in their philosophical conversations. Many crafts are mentioned including Medicine Edison horsemanship huntsman ship ox hurting and farming calculation geometry generalship weaving pottery sniffing and cookery kary. Each of these crafts is also associated with a corresponding practitioner for medicine craft practitioners are known as physicians as the concept that technique develops in Greek thought the role of reflective knowledge in craftsmanship is emphasized whereas technically refers refers to knowing how to do certain activities or processes of the Kraft Kraft knowledge indicates theoretical component associated associated with understanding for example. The physician knows how to apply a particular process or recipe to to make someone healthy however it is understanding which allows the physician to know or recognize health by medical call knowledge since health is the goal of the medical craft the physician understands the goal of the Craft Plato emphasizes this knowledge as a distinct distinct aspect of the craftsman skill beyond the mechanical aspects of the craft according to Plato a craft as defined fine by its particular goal and it's knowledge bully develop. This knowledge is knowing how to accomplish a goal by understanding the goal and that the craftsman is capable of articulating an account of this understanding the account informs and guides hides the skilled practice. There's a second feature of technique that is vital for the understanding its importance to Plato and the Greek view view of craftsmanship technique is distinguished not only by the craftsman's ability to give an account but also because it seeks the welfare affair of its end object the physician and the physical trainer seek the welfare of the body and spirit just as the judge in the legislator slater seek the welfare of the community again we see in the Greek as in the Japanese view of craftsmanship. The principle of social social welfare is considered to be an inherent characteristic in the practice of craftsmanship and distinguishing feature of the Craftsman Rtd and Atta Craftsmanship Italians probably proclaim is a mark of excellence that tells the traditions the social and cultural fabric of a community and is the essence of our country. The expression made in Italy itself is almost perfectly synonymous with Italian Italian craftsmanship or Artesia Natto from culinary products the clothing and jewelry leather goods and fabrics the importance of human hands and their skilled work. The creation of Italy's own excellences is undeniable made in Italy remains an undisputed leader in many fields feels equal in meaning to quality beauty and worth Italian Oxygen Atto is the heart and hands the Italian economy and its path to the future in spite of decades of global commerce homogenized tastes and lowering quality standards where cheap means good good those have been hard years for Italian craftsmanship because Artesia does own values are the opposite they speak of uniqueness of excellence of durability artesia outdoors said is the sole of Italy itself rooted in its regional centers of of craftsmanship and its many skills that form the core of each region's social history and heritage. This is certainly typical Khalip craftsmanship in every corner of the world but particularly so in Italy the importance of Artesian to Italy runs deeper than economy economy and Prestige Artesia does speaks of WHO Italians see themselves to be and what Italy is made of craftwork craftwork creativity love for tradition and family for these reasons and more Italian Artesian auto has found on its place as a candidate on the UNESCO World Heritage List nowhere else has craftmanship become such a powerful synonym of culture and its role so much a part of the country's history and soul Shilpa in India the meaning of Shilpa craftsmanship. It is complex it consists of art skill craft labor ingenuity right and in ritual form and creation the range of crass encompassed by the term shilpa extends to every aspect of culture including the sculptor the potter the perfumer the wheelwright the painter the weaver the architect the dancer the musician the arts of love up and many others ancient Indian tech say the number of crafts is unlimited and the craftsman is one who sees he's with the listening. I is aware of unending space and the tiniest seed and looks into the with in in of things and then creates Rasa is the word used to describe this fullness of seeing gene listening touching and feeling the craftsman who had deeply understood this was known as the rest seek or Dari the holder of the essence the car capable of mastery of vision and technique in in India the complete craftsman Teke in the now what language of the aesthetic of central Mexico will the word told Teke is translated as craftsman of the highest level the city of Tolan today's tula either Alagoas goeas mythology ancestral home of the toll teke was renowned for its sumptuous palaces and awe inspiring buildings made from Gold Ajay Turquoise and Quetzal feathers. The city was also thought to have been flooded with wealth generated by the gifted toll teke a craftsman highly skilled in metallurgy and pottery so much so that there potters were said to have taught the clay to lie and later a stick a metal worker's jewelers or even known as Teke as a designation of their skill as master craftsman. UH The toll tech name carried a certain prestige and they were very highly regarded by the Maya and the Aztec in particular who seem to have copied many aspects of toll teke religious practices and art and looked on the toll pickup period as a golden era when such wonders says writing medicine and metallurgy were invented these may well have been invented earlier and by others but more certain is the toll Teke influence on architecture and sculpture Azteca it was the toll tekere and no other they sell to claim descent or or providence from the magnitude of their reverence and respect is evidence than the expression toll tech or to have have a toll heart which meant to be worthy and excel in all things sunny in classical Arabic. The words sunny is taken to mean a craftsman who practices a particular Taylor craft and is also creative in his work. It is the blend of a trained artisan and creative artists for which there there is no literal translation in English. The traditional Sahni's work is to make objects that would function as understood by its appearance Cologne. An object is beautiful because it is functionally perfect. It is not perfect because it is simply beautiful and it's form arm for the traditional. Sanni craftsman once craftwork was not meant to be a self expressive work of art in debut anyone who insists on his own way is not a sunny but in egoists it was the exception rather than the rule for the arts in craftsman to a fix his name to his work hence the traditional Islamic craftsman was anonymous and rarely assigned his name for it was the outcome of his work that mattered and not his person counted was the result rather than the deed or the door for the Muslim sunny self realization came through the act of creativity and not through personal fame for the sunny. The foundation of Islamic aesthetics lies in the following sayings of the Prophet Muhammad Hamad God has inscribed beauty upon all things God desires that if you do something you perfect it work is a form of worship and God is beautiful and he loves beauty hence perfecting affecting one's work by creating attractive and well-made objects that serve a purpose becomes a form of worship and a religious obligation. Shen easily fulfilled by the sunny through adherence to the faith and its principles uh-huh Hundi Healy language the fundy or craftsman are those persons engaged in the apply practice of craftsmanship or Hundi African craft work is often associated with utilitarian objects objects but it is also about beauty sometimes in its humblest and possibly purest form. This is especially true pottery or along along with appreciation of perfect form. The technical skill of crafting can also be admired especially in the absence of even the simplest of machines like a Potter's Khalil Ancient African artists believed that they had access to a certain pool of higher thoughts said to be the origin of creation and commands mind and hands for only tools used to reflect some of the magnificence he could occasionally have fleeting sight of this core belief takes humble craft to another plane where different evaluation system of what craftsmanship means needs to occur so it is a transcendent state where perfection of execution and the CRAFTSMAN's intention merge fullness comes not only from the finished work but the manner in which it was done it is a way of doing it is a way of living in African cultures. There is no separation between art and craft they are as one this instinctive nature of the African craftsman it is said produces craft work with enduring and trends and in qualities a work which speaks for itself where the beholder the holder may see something in it that takes him beyond himself the pursuit of craftsmanship for the craftsman knows that his central task is the creation of himself and it is above all for this aim that he strives with endless patience separating the subtle from Grosse softly and with great care to make what his hands touch turn to Goal Aka Kumaraswami Eh writer and Craftsman bull once you have committed to the view that life is a learned craft. You must begin the process of becoming a Craftsperson by committing to practice craftsmanship in your life and your actions to begin consider the meaning of craftsperson chiefs person and craftsmanship as we have described them understand what it is. You're committing yourself to anchor the principles of craftsmanship inside your mind then open yourself to experience the works of superior craftsmanship all the books in the world. You cannot duplicate the experience of direct contact with the fruits of superior craftsmanship the works themselves alone and with friends and family look at touch smell taste and listen to the works of superior craftsmanship which surround us experience them and talk about them together. Describe what you see and feel the deeper you look at a beautifully crafted automobile automobile and outstanding motion picture an intricate piece of jewelry or an inspired performance or the ultimate masterpiece. A super bowl crafted life lived to its fullest and an inspiration to future generations of practitioners title. The principle of this exercise is to become well acquainted with the difference between true craftsmanship and imitation fake craftsmanship ed or worse mediocre indifferent workmanship. This is the foundation of life as a craft life craft to know what craftsmanship is and what it isn't it is the knowledge the acceptance and the application location of craftsmanship which will be the significant determining factor whether or not an individual's life will be crafted by him or herself and others into into a unique genuine work of art beautifully displayed and cared for or whether it will be just another assembly line production model a cheap imitation look like a worse a rotting. Shell and the junkyards applied craftsmanship ship is therefore not attained by listening to podcasts or reading books only it is attained through action shared with everyone and through the tangible evidence of one's craftwork thus the essence of the true Craftsperson is in the pride of giving to the world world a work which speaks for itself seek out great works of craftsmanship and there you will find nestled among the curves serves and in the textures in the AROMAS and the colors and the tones lessons prepared with painstaking care by great crafts people each each one worth more than ten thousand words. It is there in the evidence of their work. The work speaks for itself them and reveals the invisible crafts person making a masterpiece of your life. Making a masterpiece piece of your life is the practice of applying craftsmanship to life that is the physical mental and spiritual experiences this which constitute every human being's existence making a masterpiece of your life is the art and science of skillful living through craftsmanship rafts manship. The selective application of specific skills achieved through study observation and practice. It is a structured systematic approach to managing your life and the life of your family. It is intended to teach ourselves in our children to value the ancient and time-tested quality of craftsmanship and to cultivate the spirit of the crafts person in everything we do to empower our children with the skills to make a masterpiece of their lives craftsmanship can be studied through pursued by itself. One does not need to practice life as a craft to appreciate or apply craftsmanship to any endeavor one could also also practice life as a craft and achieve results without ever knowingly having practice craftsmanship however the greatest results will be achieved when you consciously apply the principles of craftsmanship in your practice of the craft of life to make a masterpiece strips of your life. This is Charles Collins inviting you to join us for the next episode of making a masterpiece of you're making a masterpiece of your life is made possible by a grant from the Griffin House Trust.

CRAFTSMAN Atta Craftsmanship Italians Italy Tawny Textile Crafts Craftsman Rtd Shokhin Craftsman Plato Teke baker orioles Kraft Kraft Medicine Edison India us cody Japan Shilpa Muhammad Hamad God
How to Find and Keep the Best Employees

Our SKUD View

24:41 min | 2 years ago

How to Find and Keep the Best Employees

"Okay. So as promised Lou back, and this is one of those special episodes really for anybody. So if you're a retailer near listening to this, if you're a manufacturer you're listening to this, if you're just somebody in the industry, and you've stumbled across this episode. Welcome and a hope you enjoy it. Because today we have brought to special guests to talk with us about a very interesting topic. So we have Tracy Barbara here. Tracy is in our HR department, and I'll let her introduce herself properly. And with her is Lincoln, Cade, welcome guys. Thanks for having us on really, really excited. Tracy. Do you want to tell them a little bit about you or wait? Let me let me give them a little teaser. We're going to talk about and why you guys are here that will make sense. So today we're going to talk about that topic. We briefly mentioned if you weeks ago, which is how do I find good talent? That's for your store for your business in general, and it's topic and pain point really heard about it market and wanted to give you guys advice. And because I am no expert in this field. I wanted to find some experts, and we are lucky to have to really great people in house who specialize in just that. So now that's all teed up Tracy till till the folks little bit about you. Yeah. Thanks, emily. So I'm Tracy barber. I've been in HR now for about twelve years of them with micro d for two to going onto and a half. I've done pretty much all things HR in generalist type roles focus. A lot on talent acquisition employee relations. So hopefully, we can talk today a little bit about HR and give you some good advice. Also and Carly. Yeah. So I have been in HR for about three years. I've been at micro d for probably year and a half and I mainly focus on recruitment, talent acquisition and learning in development. So all of our in house, trainings for our managers and employees. So let's just dive, right? In one big question that is on a lot of people's minds right now, maybe is how come I find good people to work for me. Right. That's I guess you guys hear that a lot from maybe some hiring managers here is how do we find somebody good for this physician? So talk to me, a little bit about what you would suggest for people who are asking themselves this question. Sure. So I think the best place to start is, you know, first of all, figuring out what kind of position you're looking for specifically and figuring out job boards that will cater themselves to that position. So supplying last or something. Yeah. So we found typically with sales positions business development. A lot of those candidates are on linked frequently. So posting Lincoln ads is a good way to attract that type of talent. Also, you know, indeed glass door are good. For more customer service roles we've found in the past. So I think it's important to I figure out what you're looking for, and then finding the best job board for that job. And then it's also really important to source for candidate so looking for passive candidates versus active candidates. A lot of times. So a passive candidate is someone who isn't necessarily in the job market. Like actively, so not, you know, seeking job posts, you know applying for jobs. They're more. They're happy in their role and maybe you reach out to them with something better. So that's, that's what a passive candidate is on. So, you know, a lot of times you can find really good talent by just reaching out to them. I basically through your network. I mean Lincoln is an awesome tool employee. Referrals are an awesome opportunity to tap into some passive talents. But, you know, finding those employees who like Harley set are happy in their roles, and they're not necessarily looking versus somebody who is in the job market and, and possibly has been in the job market for a while. Your top talent tends to come more from those passive job seekers. And then I'll add to what Carly said, when you when you start to think about where you're going to go to find your talent. It's super important to know. No, you're brand. Right. So no. Where can you tap into your current network? What, what, what is your company do, and where can you find people that are going to fit into that role? So basically looking in the places where your ideal person with already be exactly. Yeah. Right. And you know, kind of what you said about referrals referrals, or a great resource talent. Because, you know, typically it's a good. It's a good way to market your company to a to the outside population. You know, if you have somebody who's really happy within the company, and knows of people who have potentially be good fit for those roles. That's, that's just that's the perfect scenario because your people inside your company are gonna know those roles best and are going to know what kind of talent you need, and then they're also going to be a champion for your company with those candidates, one thing. That I like we said about the employee referral. It makes sense. Right. If you have some of the trust that works for you, and they know someone who could be fit absolately people. No good people. Good people. Good people. How would you approach your current employees to say? Hey, guys know anybody I think it's good to let employs, no kinda give them tolls and things that they can use to share the chair the jobs that we have available with their network such as if we post position oftentimes we'll send out an Email saying, hey, this rolls open. If you know anybody that might be a good fit. Please feel free to let them know and some are way. Right. So if I'm a manufacturer and I'm looking for someone and I find them online, din, and get them. And they come into the company they really enjoy working there. How do I make sure 'specially if it's not one of those active candidates, you mentioned a passive candidate tout? I make sure they stay. Happy with me instead of being Simi available for someone else to kind of poach them out of my company. I think it's really important to constantly be checking in with your employees, constantly asking for feedback asking whether that be through surveys or through reviews. Oh reviews. So, you know, your quarterly reviews, make sure you're asking people how they're feeling about their role. How they're feeling about the company. I think a lot of times employers are scared to ask for feedback because it's not always necessarily going to be positive, and sometimes that's hard to deal with. But getting that constant feedback and knowing where your employees are aware you need to improve is going to help keep your employees engaged and keep them with your company. Absolutely. They're different tolls that employers can use to really facility. Tate that conversation, their engagement surveys. It's recommended that you do them, at least annually, and then you can do follow ups, like Paul surveys, which is just taking sort of a snapshot of a full engagement survey. And sending that out to your employees that can be used for like focus areas. If you know that you have scored lower gotten some negative feedback around, let's say, executive leadership, for example, you can then focus on that area over the next quarter year. But what's really important with engagement when you start talking about how do you keep your employees engaged and retain your talent that you you're truly listening and acting upon the feedback that you're getting, it's one thing to send out the surveys once a year but then you really have to take that feedback and start making some positive changes and you're working buyer, -ment would you said it's a fit for like big companies, or small companies. Absolutely. We do them here at Microdyne were were a small company. I would say most large organizations do some. Mm form of engagement survey, or pulse survey. I mentioned that there's tolls that you can use lots of HR systems will incorporate engagement, you can use things like survey monkey. That's relatively very inexpensive, that you can create the surveys, and send them out over and over again and go in and modifying update. The questions as you see fit to do Paul surveys. And I know survey monkey even has a has the ability to, they have built in templates and things for engagement so one on ones are also really good time to get feedback to. That's what I was trying the word, I was trying to think of earlier, one on ones where you're asking employees how they feel in their role this week. What have you had trouble with what have you felt successful in? That's also a really good place to get feedback. Yes. And we when we do our one on ones. We put a lot of effort into making those, you know, meaningful for the company and one of the things that we encourage all of our supervisors to ask in all of their one on ones as what could either. Do better to make you more effective in your role or what barriers could I eliminate for you to help you be more successful? So big part of keeping people happy in engaged is on your shoulders. I guess a supervisor or even a lot of the retailers that we work with are there, the business owner, but they're also kind of sometimes the HR person at the same time, and they're probably still doing some sales, and delivery stuff. So the onus is on them to, to make sure that their, their employees being successful. It's not just up to the employees, right theft me. I mean your, your leadership plays such a critical role when it comes to keeping your workforce engaged in retaining your top talent. How important is culture fit, right? Because a lot of people, especially in the furniture industry bounce around from place to place within the same industry because I know you know what, you know, and you're an expert because you put years into it, but. How important is your company atmosphere when it comes to making people happy or even bringing people in visit matter or matters a lot a lot? I feel like a lot of times, people can have years of experience be a subject matter expert in their role. But if they're not jiving with the team, they're working with or liking what the company stands for the atmosphere got experience kind of goes out the window. You know, if you're not happy, where you're at it can turn negative really quickly and that negative talks ity can spread throughout the organization. So it's really important to look at culture fit when deciding on talent, you know, making sure that, you know, taking a look at your company and figuring out what pace people work at, you know, is it a more casual environment or is it? More structured corporate environment. And then figuring out if this candidate is going to be comfortable in that type of environment. Yeah. We tell we tell our hiring managers all the time we can train skills, but you can't you can't train that fit. Right. I mean, and like Harley said, we, we do a lot around negativity in the workplace, we actually Carly just conducted a negativity in the workplace training this past week because that is the biggest drain on your culture negative behaviors negative attitudes spread three times faster than positively. So it's really important to keep that in check and, and hiring the right person. I mean, you know, back filling these roles hiring the cost of recruitment is just through the roof. You've gotta make sure put your best foot forward, when it comes to finding that right person up front, because taking care about problem later very costly to the organization curl, you now we're talking we were prepping. For this week's podcast in you pointed to something that of really like that's on your wall. The team or. Yeah. I guess you could say Teke Teke, maybe so. Yeah, there's, there's kind of four big pieces on that. You want to look for when you are looking for talent the for the first one is talent. So, you know, whether it's whether they have the potential for that role you also want to take account into experience, how much experience, do you want for this person to have in this role, and then the next is culture fit? And then the next is energy, how much energy does the candidate have. And, you know, obviously, if, if someone has all four they're, they're your rockstar candidate, if they check all the boxes and that's for sure higher. But a lot of times that doesn't happen, you know, a lot of times. You know, people can't be everything and they're stronger in some areas than others. So it's kind of interesting how if your if a candidate is stronger in one of these areas than weaker in another how that can kind of play out over time. So, for instance, if a candidate has the experience, and is a really good culture, fit, and has really good energy, but they don't really have that potential. They don't really have that talent. They end up being your be player in the organization like they're going to do what you want for them to do, but they're never going to maybe like go above and beyond or evolve that role any. Another combination that, you can get sometimes is they've got the talent they've got years of experience, but they're not necessarily a good culture fit. You know, maybe they may be you have a very fast paced culture, and they're more methodical and like to follow a process. There's different examples of why people can't be a good culture fit. But if they if they don't have that piece a lot of times they can become toxic in your environment and bring your Bing, your bring your rock star players down with their negatively by gossiping or complaining or stuff like that. And it's a specially if you have someone like that who has high energy that talk cities, going to spread even faster all experts say that negativity spreads three times as fast as positively. Yeah. So once you get that negative seed planted in your organization is incredibly hot. Hard to get it back under control these four key concepts. When hiring talent or are really crucial. You said negatively a few times, and that sounds like a red flag. Right. So if I'm looking at my employees, right? I'm listening to this podcast and I'm not super happy with where my company is right now. I think it might have to do with some of the workforce what, what things would I look for. I'm not saying that this is the thing you need to look at before you fire somebody. Right. But what are some red flags that you guys have witnessed or seen definitely those, I mean, I think, you know, as owners or managers an organization, you tend to know where those drains are where those toxic employees are in your company, but it's things like you know, constantly gossiping constantly coming to you, or to a manager with complaints, but not having a solution. Or when you implement solutions doesn't get better seeing drops and performance or consistent performance decline. And really just negative people. The people that drain your resources in your time. I know you said negatively a lot and people have off days when does it become a problem? It's looking at the pattern over time or looking at the, you know, the consistency of the problem, I think that again, generally, it's really tough to move beyond while we, you know, we keep talking about employee John Doe. We keep having these conversations and his performance has been a problem for some time. But it's, it's really addressing it right? Moving to the next level. That's so critical because it's it's hard to have those tough conversations and hold people accountable. But if you're not recognizing it and then doing something about it. You know, it's just going to it's going to continue to have a negative impact on your company, and, honestly, the quickest way to push out your top talent is to keep these people around, if, if you're a high performer, it's really hard to sit next to somebody who's not pulling their weight, or constantly negative and talking badly about the company or. Or the employee's the work that they're doing, so it's really critical to, to find those problem areas and make sure you have the right people in their seats. What would be if you had like a thirty thousand foot tip of the day or something that you could give to someone who maybe they don't have HR team, a lot of the bigger organizations have them. Right. But if you're looking at small retail stores, what would be the thing that you would tell them if you were their age are person for a day, I think it would be, don't be afraid to have those tough conversations and make hard decisions a lot of the top leaders, when you watch things like Ted said, HR pros have done a lot of the top leaders will tell you that they were once fired from a job and that, that was their wake call that was their opportunity to look at their life and make a change that, you know, made them who they are today. And I think that you, you know, we all as humans we all value feedback. We can't grow and develop an improve if we're not aware of those areas. So having these tough converse. Nations with your employees is really, you know can be as beneficial for them as it is for you. And, you know, you may save somebody you may be that voice that they've needed to hear and they could turn things around and improve their performance. And at the end of the day, you're not only doing the right thing for your business, and your other employs and your top performers that you've Allieu so much. But you're doing the right thing for that person as well. That's good advice curly, what would be your tips? If you are someone's HR person or your your if you were recruiting for somebody, they didn't have anybody else. What would be your your number one high level tip for them? I would say, you know, really focus on the talent and culture piece that I was talking about earlier. I feel like so many, hiring managers, get stuck on the experience portion especially if your back filling a role like maybe you had someone really good in that role. Leave. We've and you're kind of panic mode, a lot of times, employers want to just try and hire somebody with X number amount of experience, because that's what the last person had or something, and that's not always necessarily the best hiring option because, you know, as we were saying earlier, I mean, you can, you can train skills you can show somebody how to fill out the report or whatever, but you can't you can't train somebody on personality. You can't train somebody on how they're going to fit in with the rest of the team. So it's really important to look at those soft skills, and look at that culture fit versus just amount of years of experience. How did you sign that? In the you know, everybody interviews. Well, they look at people like, oh, they interview, well, but then they turn out to not a water some things that you can do in maybe an interview process. Join fine that personnel like your real personality's they're going to jive with the way that your company. Works. Sure. I think it's important to I think it's important to have multiple interviews multiple conversations maybe for any role. And you know, maybe start out with just a simple phone conversation, quick, thirty minute phone conversation to introduce yourself and get to know their experience a little bit more on the maybe. Yeah. Focus on the on the experience a little bit more in that conversation to make sure that that person could potentially be what you need. But then I think it's important to have face to face interview, or at least, a, a video interview so you can look at that person's mannerisms when you're when you're talking to them. And I also think it's important to have more than one person in on that interview we always do panel interviews. We try to get multiple people I mean not to the point where it's overwhelming not ten fifteen people, but, you know, get get a few different personalities in they're talking to this person because a lot of times, somebody will see something that you won't necessarily pick up on. Yeah. Yeah. And. I think it's also important to paint a realistic picture of the work environment that the person will be working in walk them around the office have them meet peers really working with. Absolutely. Yeah. Definitely and paint a real picture about what a day in the life as like because I think, when you do that, if it's if it's evident to the candidate that it's not going to be the right fit. They likely won't accept the job and it all at will also be more evident to you. When you're having those conversations with them, sitting experts more realistically, and not trying to get somebody into fill the position. Right. Because I think that's where the big need is right now at least for a lot of the retailers threes, and why we did this episode is because we heard people coming up to us at market stressed out because x y and z wasn't getting done, and they had to fire somebody into their rushing rushing try to fill a position. But that's probably putting them in this mindset of, I'm just gonna find some money to. Well it and I'll say whatever half through to get them in the door because they've had ten years experience in their great sales. They know furniture whatever but that's that's doing more disservice against that. You're saying that cost of a bad hire is huge. I mean, the average national nationwide. The average cost per hires about four thousand five hundred dollars really. Yes. Yeah. Is that phrase? I don't know if this isn't HR appropriate phrase, the higher slow fire click, or was it fire? Quake fires higher. Slow fire fast yet words to live by. Yes. Yeah. Okay. We'll thank you guys for joining us on this week's episode. We hope you enjoyed it. We will be back in two weeks with another special guest. But until then this has been are skewed view. Thanks for listening. This endurance.

Lincoln Carly Tracy Harley Paul Tracy Barbara supervisor Tracy barber Lou Bing Teke Teke theft Simi Microdyne Cade Tate executive business owner
The Verdict

Direct Appeal

35:24 min | 2 years ago

The Verdict

"Before we begin today we wanNA play a trailer from our friends at the podcast crime culture. In which the host explained how true crime and pop culture intersect. Here's crime culture. Is Your Netflix Queue? Basically all true crime movies and series. You ever wonder why. You can't open a bottle of tylenol without using the jaws of life crime culture hosted by me. Haley Langan and me Kaitlyn. Maher is a podcast that discusses true crime pop culture. And how the two relate from killers that have inspired hit films like silence of the lambs to the motives for crimes. Such as the murder of John Lennon. Join Halian me. Every Tuesday to discover the pop culture side of true crime. If you're just tuning in we encourage you to go back and listen from episode one. This podcast may contain content. That is graphic and disturbing in nature. Listener. Discretion is advised to submit a theory. A tip a question or comment please. Email us at tips at direct appeal. Podcasts DOT COM or. Call US and leave a voicemail at seven three two five one zero zero nine nine six as a reminder. Melanie will be answering your questions in a bonus episode. So don't forget to submit your questions by July thirty first via e mail or voicemail previously on direct appeal about the dog hair that was found in the bags with body. Where was this body packaged? It's been made a lot out of L. She got rid of his close like two days after she found out in my mind. I'm getting more. We're packing up. We're moving and not aware. He's debt is so grisly as to pretty much negate. The possibility that anybody could do this without leaving forensic evidence by the mattress had gone to the dump but at the very least you fee. It's not all the fees comparisons and found nothing. I've indicted because number of anonymous communication had been received they found DNA and fingerprints this communication. That didn't match anybody. This stuff that I was ultimately acquitted up. This is episode twelve the verdict so there are a couple more things that we should talk about with the defense one of the things that Melanie brought up as concerning to her was not just the the witnesses and the experts and who joe didn't call but she also brought up the fact that Joe was under some type of investigation. Okay at the time of her trial and ultimately I would find out that one of my attorneys was under federal investigation. At that time it had just been advised of that now. Apparently legally bid some gray area as to whether or not he has the responsibility to inform a client that he's representing at that point because obviously his attention. As every anybody's attention would be elsewhere at that time but what I'm told at least by some people is that because it's a different jurisdictions he didn't have an obligation to inform me to me that just flies in the face of common ground. That's kind of when our defense went on fast forward. The experts dried up and all of a sudden. I wasn't testifying anymore. Okay so what is she talking about? What does this investigation and should she have been made aware? So Joe at one point represented Bernard Kerik. You ever heard Bernie. Kerik sounds familiar but I can't place it for About a year. He was the Police Commissioner L. K. in New York City. So here's the story about Bernard Kerik Joe's involvement what happened so Bush nominated carrick and this is Bush junior nominated character because the secretary of US Department Homeland Security In December two thousand four but carrot pretty quickly withdrew his nomination. An investigation ensued into his actions while he served as the New York. City Police Commissioner from two thousand to two thousand one he was also the New York City Department Correction Sorry New York City Correction Department Commissioner from Nineteen Ninety five to two thousand so an investigation ensues and ultimately what happens is correct pleads guilty and Bronx Supreme Court to failing to report alone and accepting a financial gift. Okay I don't know the look. I don't really know much about what happened. I remember it was news then and I remember he put guilty to something and you know. He accepted a financial. You know when you're in office you're not supposed to yeah so someone's giving them money for something he pleads guilty His his lawyer was Joe. Teke Pena Okay. So what carrick later claimed that he was convinced to take the plea by false representations made by his attorney Joe Tack Pena Carrick was investigated subsequently in the Federal District in two thousand six and tackle. Pena stopped representing him after he was served with a grand jury subpoena at that time tech a peanut according to carry started cooperating with federal prosecutors carrick Subsequently pled guilty in the southern district of New York in two thousand nine to tax fraud and false statements. He was sentenced to four years in federal prison and he served his time at for what I remember at a minimum security Institution in Maryland. So that was four years and he files eventually files a complaint against tactic Pena and again. He's alleging that you know Joe Convinced him to do certain things to take deal that He was his representations stopped representing him and he started cooperating with the federal prosecutors. Who Prosecuted Carrick on other charges? Okay so he's sort of like switched sides and then once so after Pena's switched sides that's one character on after him yet wall carrick. Actually I mean yeah. So He's not. Joe Is not representing Carrick Anymore. And he was he was talking to the prosecutors. Maybe cooperating in the investigation against character but it might have been that. He was not cooperating. It might have been that there was nothing to do with the case before I think as I understand was also friends with character. Okay outside so he was. He had come under some type of investigation Let me just say this though before. I even give you the information. That's relevant here Bernie Kerik filed suit against Joe He he he filed a complaint against. You're talking about yeah. He filed a civil suit against him. I think it was like two thousand fourteen later on The the suit was dismissed. Okay and Joe then filed as I understand it Joe Tack Piano. This is all from pull this. You know I'm getting these record. Yeah public records and Joe then later filed I think A defamation suit Bernie for you know yeah And then I think that Bernard Kerik filed a countersuit. And as I understand it all match as I understand it just seemed to be clear I think all the suits have been dismissed. Okay and I think I know that CHARAC suit was definitely. I know this is definitely the initial one deadliest missed. I know the counter one filed by Carrick was dismissed the counter counter counter. I think Joe's was dismissed as well but I think it had some merit like it was dismissed with some stipulation. Maybe like with merit or something. I'm not really sure I don't really know the exact. They were all pretty much dismissed. But here's why I mean. Why is it relevant? It's relevant because this was going on it's time of Melanie's trial. Okay relevant. Because they he was meeting with prosecutors. I guess during that time. And let's see here's why it's relevant it alleges in the suit even though this complaint was dismissed. I'm sure some of the dates have to be correct. Yeah so it looks like in this. It says about March Twelfth. Two thousand seven federal prosecutors involved in the grand jury investigation against Mr. Charac served Mr Teke Pena with a grand jury. Subpoena calling for the blanket. Production of records from his law firm relating to Bernard Kerik on information soon after defendant tech appeal was informed that he himself was under investigation by the. Us Attorney's Office for financial and tax crimes. Now do I know if that you know? This suit was dismissed so I didn't. I don't know about any of these out. Maybe all these allegations were dismissed but the timeframe that we're looking at if he was served the subpoena on March twelfth. That's Melanie's trial. Yeah that's prime tie. You're suggesting that he had a lot going on at the time. Yeah I'm suggesting that he had a a walk going on at the time Melanie says that too. She's like I didn't know at the time you know why. Why was Joe? She said that he seemed pre. He was seemingly more preoccupied right. Okay we're things going on and you know she's saying he's he's getting things wrong. He did this great job on cross examination but then all of a sudden he's falling off the wagon and what about Toronto? He's like Jesse taking a back seat at some point like well Toronto's co-counsel and and and you know he does as we talked about. He does the work but he's not the face of the trial Steve. Toronto did the open closing was done by Joe but appeal okay. That's a good way to lead us into the closing actually because According to Melanie Joe paid an outside firm to write the closing statements or the summation closing it turns out that Joe Retain someone to prepare the closing for him like. They had this from the beginning. Like okay these people sally and Joe and they're going to do our closing arguments. You know. Say One of the trial now. These people had not been and he contractors with somebody to prepare this closing argument. And they know what they're doing they'll be able to do it much better than I could. You know that I'm a courtroom guy. I'm not the guy who sits there and makes up graphics and stuff like that. I had known that I would have prepared the Dan powerpoint slide. I certainly could have now. If you're going to spend thirty five thousand dollars on anything. It should've been other exit. Thirty five hundred. I WANNA do that too so I wanna say for the record. I don't have anything to substantiate. This claim has said it a number of times to me and to her credit ninety five percent of what she said to me in terms of the legal. I've been able to verify but I don't have any receipts or anything but you have been able to verify that he did in fact hire someone to write the closing. I haven't no. This is all according to okay. But and so she said thirty five thousand I said thirty five s. You know a lot of money. Okay so yeah I saw your face. I thought we should pause. 'cause you look like you're about to freak out you know he started with okay. Lumo reacts with blood and bleach so even if I had cleaned up you would still see them and all the apartment there. Were you know positive? So all over the place okay. Fine mentioned that. Nobody checked at the econolodge. The brochure that was on the front seat of bills car. Now I get that you're trying to point out deficiencies here to me. That's not worth what you leave with the the gaping hole here. He argued that they didn't investigate Jimmer. Brad which isn't a good argument because they did at least Brat that one that I know they turned his life upside down that only one bullet had fibers on it and it doesn't make sense to silence only one shot now. Okay again of the things that were being brought out. Were being brought out by people who hadn't been present for the whole trial you know. Imagine how overwhelming the information was to them and you tell he said you tell. Jurors don't play detective but he referred them. He said I want you to go. Look at the records in evidence that we're never displayed to you. Well they never displayed to the jury because you agreed to pay like Bills Pharmacy background. Things like the credit card statements bank statements phone. You know stuff that would have been good to kind of cut in front of somebody's nose. You separated two scenario to tell the jury to go look at this stuff. That isn't an evidence when they've got so much evidence to sort through. He said the bill was taking depression. Medication he alluded to Beth. That's correct bill. Sister Cindy testify to the fact that there are other sister will leave teenagers medication and Cindy herself even admitted that she thought he might have depression and or might be bipolar. Buddy listen on medication. So where the hell does that come from. They had pulled so many different recording snippets. If you will you know you'd find Joe saying okay. This is the last one I'm gonNA play or here. I'm going to skip over this one. I'm going to be you're skipping over. Like wise it in there. If you're skipping things from your own summation what does that make it? Look like I have to agree. I thought that was troubling to me. You know just offhand going He's he's looking through submission guns skip skip. You know usually try when you're writing your summation talking about as a minute but this is all the critical points in one of the most important if not in part of this is the last thing. The jury is left with lasting. They want me to wait. Yeah let's wait okay. I just had. Okay he's saying basically anybody that that wasn't called by the state we would call like for instance Dr Scott for my practice. It's if the state had called him we would have called him but as he was going on with that he's going to Cetera et CETERA. Et CETERA. Like you can't etcetera over anything in a closing argument when you're supposed to be drawing things together. You know the praise people use a lot is like phoning it in. It's beyond that it's like phoning it in with with you. Know half of that or I if you gave them nothing even remotely comparable you just left them with Patty's version of events by the time that was over I just. I'm sick to my stomach and the courthouse flooded that day so we got our closing done and the courthouse was closed for the rest of the day so the state got all night to rewrite their net which they led with. I sing the next morning. There was so much more that could have been said and JOE is a very charismatic guy. When when he wants to be but he wasn't he wasn't on he just I can't think of any other way to say it. He just wasn't on knowing what I know. Now what's going on in his life explains just about every time before we talk about the general issue. Here I'm curious. What is the econolodge brochure? As the first time I've heard about that the econolodge okay so there are a couple of things found in bill conner. I think there are a couple of things found in bill's car. So I guess you know. The coral hydrate was founded. But they found a brochure for Khanna Lodge. Where without an act? Yeah and something else another another AC brochure. They didn't investigate. It sounds like they didn't not to my knowledge because he would think they would have at least gone to those and said. Hey queasy your footage like your camera navy. They did to mine. I don't know other ways the Anti Okay? I think most importantly is I. Don't I guess you can't but doesn't seem a little bit of like inadequate defense or is is an inadequate defense claim only relevant if it is Considered something that would drastically changed the course of events or so the decision to retain again a firm so I had asked. I consulted with two people that I knew in this field In one of them the expert is going to talk to us at some point but And what I've heard is that it's not the standard practice like most most attorneys want to write their own. But if you're if you're hot writing their own summation which is also for me. It wasn't even the fact that it wasn't that he didn't write it. Which yes I was questioning that but the fact that there was incorrect information oh closing them probably is not strong enough to make an inadequate defense claim. So they're gonNA bring it up Later on when Melanie repeal covering it up an ineffective counsel she does okay at does just Russian does she bring up this issue. I think she does. I don't think it was one of her point. I don't think I don't. I'm questioning it myself. I don't know that it's strong but I do know that. There's a case to be made because we know that the you know the weight of closing on jurors and the fact that the closing got botched up. I mean I agree. He missed points but you know he got things wrong on so I think minimum point is one thing but saying inadequate. Yeah there were things that were wrong and then you heard the end. So what happened was They closed on his closing and Patty didn't have to get my biggest issue is the jury is getting their. Whoever they're hearing from last is going to stick with him right the fact that it's like the slates wash clean. Whatever he said. Yesterday I like forgot about an all I'm hearing is Patty will now. They're going to here and I'm going to deliberate right. You know and the problem is she had an extra night. She got to change it but how much time Chad she gets her. Go home and I don't know what her closing initially was. But whatever Joe Address if there was anything that she took issue with a whole night to sit down and write it. If she wants she goes she wants which. I'm sure it did not happen but but I'm sure there's no way she didn't take something from that I would imagine she's like it's showing you their cards right. Usually it doesn't happen like that. No I mean I'm sure that it does happen in cases where look closing arguments sometimes. We'll go long time if you think about it in murder trial sometimes closing arguments can be you know six hours so. I do think that it happens in. China's does but in this this time I don't think it was a planned about how long the closing was. There were a couple hours so his was his our so. I think Melanie said I'm sure we could find this out. But he think Melanie said about two hours. Maybe a little bit longer. Okay regardless circumstance weather whatever she got you know extra extra time so. I asked Melanie Melanie talks about. Joe's closing statements as the end of their defense and then I asked her well. What about Patty's closings? Because then you know the prosecution gets to do their closing statement and she said well. She told a story You know we didn't have a story but patty tells a story. Does she get everything right? No just she exaggerate. Yes So the story is important. Too and tackle. Peanut did not have a story whatsoever right now. Patty did Is closing was one thing but then hearing her closing was so markedly different. It's so so much stronger that it really it kind of terrified so the next day she gets up and she starts you know. And she's saying okay basically. Melanie doesn't get points for for being clever in certain areas of yeah whereas Joe attracted disabled. She can't be basically able genius and a bumbling idiot at the same time we start. The gun is consistent with the make model and that whole mantra and she's trying to say that there are no calls from me too bill and that means clearly that. I already knew he was in. Is it possible that that night? Maybe in celebration they were having a drink. When the coral hydrate was administered I would say whatever started that execution started to be the execution of the murder started in the apartment that night and I would suggest to you. It's very difficult to move someone who is unconscious especially in an apartment complex but is it possible of course possible and I don't have to prove it happened apartment but we are going to go over the evidence because they submit to you. There is an abundance in abundance of evidence that does suggest that indeed it did happen. He didn't he apartment. She says occurs in the shower stall talked about the positioning of the body. She tried as much as she could to sort of anticipate their home and she starts withdraw drop cloth. Well anybody who you know the defenses making it sound like it's this huge gruesome scene and nobody would ever be able to clean it up. Would you know Medical Examiners? Do it every day. We kind of said okay. There's no cut marks there snow anything in the top. You would see chips in the in the fourth one in fact Mister Lezak testified that there was no disturbance to the bottom of the stall to the tile around the stall and she said that she said that ties in the razor stubble being stuff to the tape in the bathroom but she's tying this up really neatly yup relief razor stubble in a bathroom. She's making the explanation cleaner neater. She also argued that I could have silenced the thaw or sauce with a pillow or a towel. But that would hang out there for a minute. yeah I. I don't know about that. But kicking him. Yeah but you know if you look scared if you check during closer what she just pets. Silenced a circular saw with a towel. Where is that evidence? Okay so one of the most ridiculous things. I think I've ever heard and enduring this tr- came during this trial. Is that Melanie silenced. A reciprocating saw with a pillow. Arou- I can't imagine that saw during you know cutting away. I thought that was one of those ludicrous moments with Melanie said okay. We'll let that one hang out there. Yeah I love her little sayings Also I know that Melanie was not a suspect right away. But I'm assuming they interviewed people. Wouldn't melanie or was she. You gave me a look like she was pretty quickly. But she didn't have any cuts on her right. If you're using a solder cut up a body like wouldn't you hurt yourself at some point or you like you're upset and you're trying to do this quick and quiet and right? Well I don't know did you saw yourself. Is that what you mean? I know you would think she'd have. It's a saw but I don't know I feel like the way they painted as if she was doing a lot of like physical labor. Here I would aclj. He's on sort of bruising. Only I don't know maybe was her accomplice. That did this true okay. I'm not really sure but I did think the reciprocating saw was was ridiculous and razor stubble. I don't I don't understand what that's all about. Yeah there were hairs found on the tape on the garbage bags and I think the prosecution's assertion was that these were like stubble razor stubble and that it obviously came from Melanie tracking bills razor stubble from the bathroom with she. Was You know cutting up his body? At least I think that's what they were inferring. We're getting and so I guess at Mount he's talking about now You know why didn't they object to this? You know some of this stuff and she said it would have made them look defensive. Is that what she said? Defensive calling attention to something like no no arguing. Facts not in evidence But at one point you know. Patty says Whereas how she admits and you heard it in her own voice she admits parking the cars the Flamengo and then she claims to take a cat from Atlantic city to woodbridge and when she because she couldn't find her car and she sleeps on the way and then takes. You have another cab from the train station back to Atlantic City. He stands up and says your honor I object. That's an absolute mischaracterization of the evidence. How is it that tool of his character? This may be one of the few non this characterization so that part was correct. Pat Is what Melania saying one thing. That's correct Joe. I'm sure it wasn't the one. Yeah it was. It was buying large. She said that was right. And he objected instead mischaracterization. Know what that is actually right. That's you know that's what happened. I was GONNA ask context. She's painting now that I can't blame on any company paid to a closer. This is him at this point. Like where's your head or your high like. We just spent eight weeks doing this. How do you not know this story inside outside? Back Front. How do you not know it? Mr Lowry. Let me just digress. Here since I have this right in front of me you heard from Israel oury on the defense case told you. And this is in the transcript. He had a conversation with bill about purchasing a gun. But there's no evidence before you are during this trial bills wanted to purchase ago. The prosecution argued against being clues of that testimony. And now she's putting the exclusion of this information. Howard before the jury as proof oath argued to keep it out the judge said okay. We'll keep it out and then you go in front of a jury and you say well because this isn't here clearly she's lying and my on teen doesn't stand up and object She's asking. Like for instance. Where was I on May third? You know you didn't hear any evidence of where I was well where I was was our. Ma Updating my hr information and stuff like that and she knows that she knows that very well but because it wasn't brought out anything that we failed to illustrate she sees depan whether it was accurate or not whether it pointed to my guilt or not so she knew damn good well where I was on May third because she had all the records because otherwise you would have been hearing about nothing else. What may Sir? Her explanations were so much neater because it didn't require speculation in a bunch of different areas had been on the stand. I could have said this is what happened. We began with this and run through the time line in such a way that you can't when you're trying to piece it together with different Different witnesses. It's much. It's much harder so it's kind of. I don't want to say he said she said. But we're going back and forth and it's going to end up being. Who Do you believe? Well if you presented experts for some things you haven't presented experts other things and you just kind of leave them hanging there. What does it look like? She told a story. She told a story whether that story had holes in it at times whether that story was unbelievable at times it was a lot better than our story. Which was nonexistent is a story. She did tell a story. I think that the arguments about you know. Well you didn't hear this Yeah yeah like a lyric but they have a lot of latitude in closing arguments. It's not evidence. The judge definitely instructs them at some point that this is not now. They're not supposed to argue things that are you know completely Out of the scope speculate. Yeah they can so while. I don't like some of the things she argued she was. Just you could say she's zealous. Prosecutor shed prosecutor She nailed it. Jeff Story and Melanie filter stomach sinking in as As was doing this So sorry any questions. I want to say right after I was just curious. It sounds like that's at the point where Melanie probably started to get pretty worried. She's definitely word. I mean she's on trial for murder anyway so she thought she probably thought that it was she using Jenner. What to think she had mixed feelings to route a at this point. Once the state finishes they're closing the cases over The state rest the defense rests and now it goes to the jury and the jury has to deliberate until they come up with a verdict. So Melanie talks about right after the trial. What was it like waiting for the verdict and while we were waiting for the jury to come back we were out at that weekend and then at one point the jury came back and asked for reback. Something about testimony that had to do with the The anonymous communication. So Joe Fever using this opportunity to reassure me and it made sense at the time. Hey they're sweating the charges about the way you're guilty of marker. There's no way they'd find you guilty of murder and be sweating fees charges over here. You definitely don't think that you're going to be convicted of such a heinous crime that you know involvement. I I mean it's it's mind boggling. And of course intellectually. I can step back and I can tell you okay. Well these are the things that make me look involved. These are the things that make me look guilty. Of course there are your cohabitating with somebody your your lives are inextricably intertwined. That's why the spouse is always the first person so I would have thought this would have thought the same thing right there reviewing testimony about the the you know the anonymous communication whether or not. I wrote a letter I mean. If they're sweating that yeah I would have the same indicator I think I would have had. Yeah how long were they? I don't know if you're going to get to this if so and you could tell me If I'm not mistaken and they were yeah they were they were not sequestered. So this is what it's like. She's waiting so I guess you go through. You're asking me what did she say? Well she wasn't sure it's everything right like there were times where she said she felt. Like you know Joe would say no no doing good like look what we we punched holes okay and then she You know describes feeling like you know lackluster. After they put on their case like we didn't really do a great job and again. Joe Reassures are we. We didn't have to. They punch holes in everything. So then she hears his the closing by Hem. She describes after his closing Patty. She said she felt. And I remember saying this to me deflated. Catchy thought okay. You know. We're in trouble. Yeah and then when they got word that you know they were. The jury was Debating the anonymous communication. She again in her lawyers. Like this is great roller coaster ride for her so This is how she describes waiting for the verdict and then the verdict actually comes in. I remember one of the sheriff's officers Telling Steve he thought they were getting close and eventually they came in the Fed. Okay we've got it and I'm trying to send a message to the person I'm with us has been with me throughout this entire press trial. Whatever and I'm trying to trying to email have an well I can get out is. My hands are shaking so badly all. I can get out is now I. I couldn't even form any other work. They brought us into the courtroom. And I remember standing. I remember Waiting for the jury to be seeded and at that point looking at their faces. And I'm thinking Oh my God you know an on. Don't read into adult read into what you're GONNA know in ten seconds like you know. Shut up I'm having this inner dialogue In my head and you know two voices going back and forth look at some. Don't look at them. I got their faces. Before you know it. You know a they give the They give the verdict. And I don't remember a lot after that I remember kind of grabbing Joe and I remember saying my kids my kids and I don't. I don't really remember much after that. I do remember being taken. The county waiting to get from the verdict to sentencing was excruciating. Absolutely excruciating you know. You're you're thinking okay. Well we're going to appeal. We're GONNA do all of this and you have no sense of how slow it is. How long it takes about three months the fact that really nobody gives a shit. So nobody's helping. When it comes to like transcripts getting a we had talked about what to expect and at this point my thing was on. I really don't give a shit what you say because I'm protesting my innocence here. You can tell me thirty. You can tell me life you can tell me double life. I don't really give a shit. I'm not owning any of it. I'm not accepting any of it because I'm still at that point in my head at that point in time like you know no this grievous injustice tired and is heard at is beaten down as I am. I'M NOT ACCEPTING THAT. I expected the worst and what I got was just one step shy of the worst and really for all intents and purposes and they're indistinguishable I just give in life with the possibility for parole however life for the purposes of parole in the State of New Jersey seventy five years but I was given life plus five for eighty years. I would have to do. Eighty five percent to to the no early release act and long story short that puts me parole eligible at the tender age of one hundred one. So at that point you may as well as giving me life without parole The judge was duty-bound to give me no less than thirty. That's a mandatory minimum. Yeah so I mean you've seen it as well making one. The verdict was read and her reaction. It's kind of hard to watch had not to for. This is one of those famous scenes. That people will remember again. It's hard to watch for sure. She has a very emotional reaction yet she grabs onto Joe and I think what she says is my babies my babies and she just starts crying and pulling him in and he's trying to remain calm in standard is pretty quick right. He was pretty STOIC. I think he was surprised but I think he hid it well but she she really goes you know she loses it. Of course they say it's funny because they say you know see these cases. I've seen so many trials where the defendants they say like guilty and there have nothing. Yeah they don't move it. Just look you know an. I'm always like God. Yeah I don't know. Is this the reaction of an innocent person which he had? Is that a guilty person. Reacts like that too bright I jerry? Yeah because even if you're guilty you're still getting your babies taken away from you. You're still you know going away for a long time right. Well I think we would encourage anyone who's listening To our listeners. To at least take a look you can Google Youtube it was on TV and it was on court TV so everyone can see the verdict. So or the whole trial right I don't know it must be like archival footage they don't have the whole thing and the whole thing But there are various openings closing those bigger parts on youtube you can get You can get some of this. I Bet I mean we've we've done By Timid We've looked at various scenes. But you can't get the whole anymore unless I requested old. Tv doesn't exist anymore it's true. Tv right thinks yeah or is it. Yeah it's not me okay. So this is the end. The trial is over. Melania has been convicted for murder of her husband. What was the date of the Verdict Oh shortly after the trial began in March. Okay so it was. The verdict was sometime in April the end of April two thousand seven. This is three years after so as April. Two thousand seven three years after an. She's been incarcerated since. Yes so after Melanie we'll talk about after the verdicts how she was in jail for time and then she was waiting to be moved and She's going to tell you about what it was like right after the verdict before she was transferred and next time we'll talk about where she is now. Next time on. Direct appeal is Melanie. An innocent woman wrongfully convicted or she a cold hearted murderer as the prosecution alleged. We will reveal our conclusions on the last episode of direct appeal. Direct appeal is hosted by Megan Saxon. Amy Schlossberg our producer is James Varga. The Story Arc was written by Megan Sex music and underscore by desert media recorded mixed and edited by Justin crowd at JC studios. Special thanks to Allen Tuckerman whose work was integral to this production to view photos. Evidence and engage with other listeners. Visit Direct Appeal PODCAST DOT COM and follow us on Instagram facebook and twitter. If you have a tip you can submit through our website or by emailing tips at direct appeal. Podcast DOT COM. You can also help us out by leaving a five star review on Apple Itunes or wherever you listen.

Bernard Kerik Joe Melanie Melanie Patty murder Joe Tack Pena Carrick Bernard Kerik Mount he New York Bernie Joe He Netflix US Prosecutor Mr Teke Pena John Lennon Steve New York City Maher Toronto
Deliberation

Direct Appeal

1:01:17 hr | 2 years ago

Deliberation

"If you're just tuning in we encourage you to go back and listen from episode one. This podcast may contain content. That is graphic and disturbing nature listener. Discretion is advised previously on this season of direct appeal on april twenty. Third two thousand seven. I was convicted of the murder. And dismemberment of my house. Six everything eventually going to extricate myself from this relationship. Mrs are men. i can having an extra-marital affair. He pushed me up against the bathroom door and stuff the dryer sheets my mouth. I got up to get the hell out of there. I was raging. I was pissed. We went through all of this and you go down to atlantic city on his car. Someplace downtown. seedy motel good luck. Finding before she left gap. She looked at me. She said he's really not much your car. Clean that apartment. That apartment had normal household dirt. My mother called me and said that police had been by sorry to inform me about my husband. Attached away in virginia naive. I'm thinking if i didn't do anything like what's the harm in talking at my telling them i'm having an affair. Nobody's asking. let me tell you. The prosecutor wants to prosecute you degrees the law. They're going to push it. Because you're guilty proven edison. You will be tenuous so get your head. Right at prosecutor is fearing absolutely. I had very contains victims parts and the we got the cna. Now dog respond in the bay axe with his body. Where was this body package. Me owed money out on the street. And that's how you get shot here and here on likely pistol was used in this crime but it's not impossible if this lab get up there and say they'll talk about this put by on wanted wanted to be with judge. Someone could have those same bags then committed this crime. Who else could have donnie. His own data shows that the bags didn't match missing footage. How the hell was their sick footage. Perhaps more important than what heard is what she did here. Power tools gunshot. I see a mountain a reasonable doubt. How can anyone be convicted. With amount of doubt it stunning. That's dangerous to all of us. Not just a balancing. Nobody's to a perfect trial. Your tires fair trial lawyers will tell you over and over in the burden of proof is unsafe. However if you tell your story the jury thinks you don't have a store. Patty told a store. Also say that there was huge. Prosecutorial misconduct layton. In deliberate mountain mentally. I would find out that one of my attorneys was under federal investigation. That's when our defense went on four experts dried up and all of the subsciber testify. I expected the worst. What i got was just one step. Shy may give the verdict. Parole eligible at the header. Age of one hundred one nine. Remember staying my kids. My kids and i don't really remember much after that. This changes you in a way. I don't know that anybody back from okay. We have a lot to cover on this last episode of direct appeal. so we're going to address audience. Tips your alternative theories and amien. I will give you our final conclusions about the case. But i i'd like to address an audience issue. That's come up in the course of this podcast. We have read reviews that are podcast was biased. In that we should have contacted bill sisters and or other family and friends and other people to speak to you on bill maguire's behalf. I personally understand this criticism about contacting his sisters and i wanted to just explain a little bit more about why i thought it was the wrong move. I initially wasn't sure based on a conversation with My limited conversation with the prosecutor that they would be very welcome to us contacting them so that was the first signal. I got that this wouldn't be a great idea and when i read through all the transcripts and other materials. I realized that i would contact his sisters. If there was some information that i thought i really needed to clarify information that kind of went to melanie's guilt or innocence information. I thought they had about the crime that especially was never made clear in the truth. Was that in Nancy did not testify in trial. And i think she lived far away. An didn't really have any information. And the information. That what i saw cindy had testified to was sort of limited to this letter that was written after the fact and it didn't seem that she had much information as well about the crime itself in melanie's guilt. Now we know that both sisters afterwards think melania's guilty and maybe rightly so but it seemed to me that the invasion into their lives had to be well justified. So i decided not to. You know i thought about it again. I reviewed the materials as these questions came in again and look in the end. Maybe it was the wrong move. And i certainly take that criticism but my gut really told me and still tells me that contacting them wasn't exactly in the best interest for them and for the investigative aspect of this podcast. I also believe that if they wanted to talk. I'm pretty sure they're well aware of this. Podcast i think maybe they would have contacted. So maybe their lack of contact shows that maybe they really didn't want to be involved in this. I mean yeah. I can't speak for them then again. if they if either either bill sisters or anyone else would like to speak with us we are so open to talking either off the record or on the record and i don't again. I think it's a legitimate criticism. And sometimes this is our first endeavor and i was just going with my kind of gut feeling so that being said though we also wanted to provide the audience with the final list of people. We contacted to speak to in terms of the case against melanie or on behalf of bill mcguire so we initially contacted a lot more people and we wanted to speak to more people because we had questions that we really thought were important to melanie's guilt or innocence. But we couldn't force people to participate and certainly we respect their decisions. Not to so here is a list. I think i promise this in the beginning. And i just want to provide you with the list of people who either declined to participate or who did not respond to us at all. That would be all three prosecutors in the trial against melanie mcguire. Five main police investigators. Who helped the prosecution. Twelve jurors medical examiner. Who provided a brief statement but who declined to be interviewed. The main forensic scientist on this case. Mr lesniak bills good friend john rice and his good friend and business partner jay tanda we believe they would have had information that would have been relevant to the crime and could have also spoke about bill in his character. That is a total of twenty. Two people and i think that obviously would have balanced the podcast a bit more but we couldn't again force people to participate. We also would note that we did not receive calls back for melanie's attorneys joe teke piano or stephen toronto on her side. Sorry that's twenty four people. Joe and steve. I wasn't counting towards so twenty. Two people who could have spoken on behalf of the state's case on behalf of bill who declined to participate so some of the audience members had questions about the material. We used in this podcast. So i just wanted to let you know that i used the trial transcript often i have them both electronically and boxes and piles of papers at home. Police reports evidence in the trial media coverage i looked at all the legal briefs that would submit it and we have the interviews so we did use a lot of materials to support the podcast even when we did though there were some instances when the transcripts or these documents or the interviews did not provide the full answers and so in those cases i chose not to speculate about things a correction. That is very important and we'll seemingly be important leader on the trip. Melanie says she took to delaware for furniture. Shopping was actually on tuesday. May fourth and not sunday may second which we reported in a previous episode And this is the second would be a time where her whereabouts could be accounted for so again trip to delaware she says was on tuesday may fourth and not sunday may second. We apologize for the mistake last issue and this is a complicated one for correction and explanation and this relates to an issue that so many people wrote in about in this the cell tower information for the phones. There was a question. Will i actually had a question about how we were so sure. The prosecution had obtained cell tower records for bill. But not for melanie. We know. I ha- i couldn't find it per se in the transcripts and it was described notes everywhere but i went back to the transcripts on this one and i went back to. Let's see i think it was detective or officer mccutcheon. And he spoke about these calls. He he did describe the phone calls and what they got but he never describes any cell phone tower information. So i also went to tom. Terry's information. Tom terry was bills boss and he came in. He testified a read his testimony as well and patty asked him about. Bill's work phone bills. Work phone was nextel and so. Patty asked tom terry if he had contacted nextel about the call that was made from bills phone at five forty one pm on april thirtieth and tom terry said he had so. Patty asked him if he had gotten the cell site information from the nextel people and he said yes. And then what happens is joe tech aquinas steps in an objects and joe and patty and the judge go to a sidebar and i was reading through the transcript and what happened was that the judge says that. Tom terry cannot testify about what the next help people told him about the cell site location because that would be hearsay. He said for that. You need the documents bringing the next tones. If you're going to try to show dora bring in the person at next hell who said it. I think so. The judge wanted the documents. Said if you're going to document the actual location you're going to need more than that and actually patio set at that sidebar. That they were waiting on that information but it was delayed but she would get those documents. I couldn't find any later time in the transcripts during the trial that she ever submitted the documentation. So tom terry. And i'm sorry. And joe tackle. Pino never put in for any sort of for that nope nothing on that phone call went to the rice's house remember his friends yellen and sura. I remember that's the call that it did. Melanie make it or was bill alive at right. So there's some question over it and certainly the cell site. Information would have been helpful. But again tom terry was not allowed to testify about that. And whatever happens that information. We really don't know at all so that's the first call okay. But let's separate that because that was bills nextel and that was not connected to melanie's phone so the second issue relates to the cell towers Between their shared phone so there was a second phone call. If you're a call early on may second. A phone call was received from. Bill's personal cell phone the one he shared with melania on the second and the phone call was made to their home apartment. The woodbridge apartment and that was made at approximately one ten eight am so was there any cell site available any info available on this and that's a separate question. I couldn't find anything. Anyone spoke to the cell tower information on this. And so. I asked melanie about it again. Melanie says and this is her Clear recollection. She says that she is positive that her team told her. So joe and steve told her that the prosecution identified that phone call as coming from or originating from atlantic city which was where she was at the time but she's positive that her team said to her this recollection patty or the prosecution has sell tight Cell site information. And they're going to say that you made that phone or that. That phone call came from atlantic city. At the time you were there. However i could never find any information to substantiate this so you can look at this one of two ways actually. So here's what you can look at it as that melanie's mistaken and that patty never said that nobody ever said anything about the second. You know the the shared phone line. And there's nothing ominous going on here. It was just a mistake or you could look at it if you believe that. Melanie's recollection is correct. That there was information that was you know. Kind of a threatened or not threaten out of evidentiary value. Or you know it was a bluff kind of course idea this information. Now we're gonna show this and You know it's gonna look bad for your client leader. So that is the story on it. There is no way to substantiate this. Unless patty wanna call us. Yeah joe steve. If you wanna call us that would be wonderful. Could we do a freedom of information act to get that information you know. I thought so and i think there are a couple of things we could although i submitted a freedom of information. Act about phone records and Some photographs that prosecutions office to the courts. And i received back. That information is not available. Blanket statement granted. I'm sure there's a way that we could probably get this so just to clarify again on. That information seem that there was going to be cell site information for the next cell phone. The judge wouldn't allow it never documentation to support that later. Whether or not there was any cell tower information available for bills. Phone on the shared account with melanie we have no idea hopefully that clarifies for some whiskers and for you amy. Yes thank you meghan now inc. We want to get to Listener comments and tips thing. A few listeners commented that many of melanie's actions were consistent with women in abusive relationships although some commented that her actions were also consistent with a sociopaths actions little clarification here socio pathology or psychopathy which are used interchangeably. Better actually actually have small differences rated sort of on the same scale Psychopaths are generally thought to be more organized intelligent and planned but some of the traits that both disorders share include a lack of empathy lack of sympathy emotional detachment impulsively general disregard for others superficialness. Know there were there. Were many comments about what melanie said but they thought that she locked emotions. They thought it was sociopathic in nature. And i think the only time as far as the recordings we have the only time she does show emotion is when she says. I couldn't put him back in the water which i thought was interesting because it really wants i thought about it said oh yeah that the only time. Her voice really cracked up but meghan. You met her on several other occasions. Did you notice any emotion for sure. Yeah sorta james to and not over emotion sitting there tearing crying. But there's definitely like micro expressions that i observed in her that That i could say More emotional at certain times so it's interesting to look at these both ways. You know to look at this both ways. I'm not really sure here. You know some people felt like no. This is really consistent with a relationship. You know the the behavior in an abusive relationship. Some people thought no just consistent with one of these personality disorders. And also. I wanna point out. Everyone shows emotion differently right. We know that emotion does not tell us some people cry when they're happy but not one there said right like so. It's important to understand. That abnormal affects sometimes is just that. It doesn't mean that it's related to psychopathy agreed. Amy thank you so next. Issue the walgreens issue so Listen a lot of feedback on this. A lot of feedback. Some people wrote in one of the comments was that melanie could have called a prescription into walgreens but many pharmacies including walgreens have recording systems for healthcare providers to leave the information. So she would know that and she wouldn't want to record also if she got if she called and got a live pharmacy employee. They might question an unusual order. Like quarrel hydrate. I don't know about that. I'm not sure about that. One either But i did think that the recording information was interesting I'm not sure if pharmacies do that. But it's definitely possible and i'm sure a lot of them do it now. I guess i'm not sure if they did it. Then right someone else wrote if bill was trying to fill a prescription. Wouldn't he use a male patients name. Fertility centers have male patient records to those. Are the partners of women trying to get pregnant. I think that's a strong point because we said you know he did. We know he had access to the patients that i mean. That makes perfect sense to me. If you're going to call it in new york or if you're going to drop it off your mouth just make your life easier and take a male's identity. Yeah no. I think that's possible as well. Yeah maybe there's a an idea that most of the patients are gonna be females but yeah it's possible. It was also noted that i think when we were talking about we were saying. Oh you would need to show an insurance card and id and it was brought to our attention that that was actually incorrect. Because you only need to present an insurance card if you want to go through insurance you had a pocket you could pay cash and there's really no record then so it is possible that somebody did drop this off. And they just didn't present any sort of id however of course if it was a controlled substance. They would need an idea but from what we understand. Clara hydrate is not in that class of drugs and the other issue that was brought up. Is we talked a lot about the time it was dropped off and whether or not that's enough time to drop off the children and all of that. It was brought to our attention by somebody who worked in a pharmacy. That sometime someone drops off script and you're busy doing something else and you kind of let it sit a little so drop off. Time does not mean the time. The individual necessarily was in the pharmacy. Someone even said hey could have been dropped off the day before and it was sitting in a pile and you know so. There's really no way to know that. I think for me that you don't that provided me with a different. It doesn't change things a lot but is just something to consider that it's not necessarily it seems per point. Let's see another listener wrote in someone who went to nursing school with melanie and she said there is absolutely no way. She would need to google information about whether insulin jocson would kill someone also cutting up. A body is not taught in nursing school. And i think dr barone spoke about that a little. Yeah we've been able to confirm that That's not something that's constantly taught at all. no one is taught. No nurses are taught how to cut a body. And it's a possibility that melanie would not need to look this up again. It's a possibility insulin. She could have found that in her. Pdr so i can understand comment as well. What are we next. Talk a little bit about here. Say okay so if you recall george. Lowery was not allowed to testify to the point that he claimed that bill told him that he wanted a gun And if you recall the judge would not allow that in because that was hearsay and although there are different rules around here say one of the under the federal rules of evidence which a lot of states typically follow these One of the exceptions is if the person who originally said the statement if they are not able to defend their position somebody else cannot speak on their behalf so the default position of the court is to keep the evidence out so in other words. If bill were still alive then they would say. We don't care what george says. Bill said just bring and since bill cannot come in and speak for himself they would rather just because he can't defend himself and say whether or not he did say that so they their default position is to keep that information out. Although i think in this situation keeping it out was maybe not the right call regardless it wasn't allowed but it will come up later on in our final conclusions. I can tell you that so someone else wrote in that. You know she has a friend. Who's a defense attorney and her friends said that it's a no no legal strategy to not object much if at all during openings or closings The friend thought that the attorneys in this case. So joe tech pena and stephen toronto should definitely asked for a mistrial during the closing whether or not openings or closings are seen as evidence the prosecutor. That's patty prosciutto was asking the jury to draw conclusions based on the lack of a gun by conversation which goes back to the george lowrey conversation just had it does but it also there were other statements that patty made During the closing and that was asking the jury to assume facts that were never admitted into evidence such as it's possible that she was drugging him for days. It's possible that bill's body was frozen in the refrigerator. it's possible they said that she was overreaching. And that this is not good strategy and it actually is prosecutorial misconduct and it is grounds for a mistrial but of course acknowledged that mistrials are not always easy to come by. So the information was that then. We've heard from a couple of attorneys. I spoke with another attorneys well. Who said that. He also thought it was prosecutorial misconduct. So in her closing. But that it's not common to object in joe's reasoning for not objecting was. It'll make us look. Bad is not the wrong. Move per se another listener. Who is a forensic scientist for it in and said even without the route might myocardial conrail. Dna analysis can still be run on hairs remember. We had all that unedited hair. It's less common than nuclear dna analysis because it cannot uniquely identify individuals. But it can certainly exclude melanie. But even if it excludes melanie that doesn't mean she wasn't there right but they had all of these hairs and the problem was there was all these untested hairs and all. The hairs that were tested they brooks were not of evidentiary value. Because they couldn't match them to melanie. Yeah that's very problematic. Because clearly you're saying this doesn't fit your theory so it's not an evidentiary value and there was tons of hair. It wasn't to animal hair all the animal hair to you. Know what happened to that hair in and yes it's still. This hair could still be tested. So that's just deter you know. Think about an. I asked melanie about that. I don't believe it was ever brought up in her appeal. So would that not be brought. That seems to me that would be paramount so we thought that was. I thought oh my god as important issue too. So it's possible that her attorneys they don't always present every issue. I guess during appeal. 'cause they wanna save one like a golden nugget later should nut in some of these arguments not prevail an earlier appeal. Get to the slater so she thought it was a nugget. They were saving for her. And i'd say you know. I don't know good Innocent you don't wanna save you marrying thing right. I understand that strategy. But at the same time if i was innocent. I don't wanna sit around for a couple of years. It's going to take for the appellate court and then to get the testing. I agree but i'm but so it is possible to test all these hair still so. I hope that we see an opportunity for that. I know that i would love to see that. And i'm sorry that was one of your former students as well wasn't it yes I should say not a criminology student. She she took a class with me several years ago but she was A science major and she went on to become a scientist so she also said that when she was listening to the prosecution's plastic expert frank ruis. She immediately wondered why he didn't do a nuclear magnetic resonance test and gas chromatography test So she said she was really glad the defense experts alexander pointed out that that testing was necessary to establish a plastic bag match so she She went on and just short in this but she went on to say that. While mr ruiz was correct that some of these there were some indicators he did not do all of the necessary testing. And that's alexandra was actually correct in saying you cannot establish a match without the test that he did not do so. so what was the housing. What about we heard from a pathologist as well right yes in. The powell just was really helpful. So the pathologist wrote in regarding dr bones testimony and also the medical examiner so it was great to hear from her She had a couple of main points. That i thought were really interesting. She's hit i. She'd have to argue that freezing Changes the way epidermal cells look She says a surgical pathologist. I performed frozen sections almost every day. We routinely freeze tissue to get an immediate diagnosis while the patient is in surgery. And there is no perceptible. Change in the skin cells seen after freezing so remember there was. This idea had been Frozen which. I still don't think he was but yes if he had been melanie someone else questioned whether or not. There wouldn't be changes to skin and so she sang absolutely not. There'd be no way to tell. I love our listeners. They're so smart right. We have some great listeners. And we thank you so much because we are not pathologists and we are not scientists and it's really useful to have input of people that are experts in these areas. So thank you very much. Yes thank you for that Okay her second point as far as the human sawdust. This is hard to address without knowing exactly what was seen microscopically. There are elements that are seen in the durmus such as hair follicles and sweat. Glands that are only seen in dermal tissue other elements like fiber stroman nerves blood vessels smooth muscle at etc can be seen in many different body tissues including durmus. So i think what she's just saying on this point is there's really no way to tell. The human sawdust was an indicative either way so the third point she said the point. The doctor baron makes about the sawing is spot on tissue flies everywhere when sawing just a bone let alone cutting apart whole body parts. Going back to the idea that whether or not melanie at the prosecution clearly got this wrong. Yeah cars where it was yeah. Crime scene not established and finally to melanie's point of the i call her being incorrect. She said the medical examiner made a mistake about. She made mistakes about bills. Eichel her and something else was. Melanie sang that to try to say. This person isn't credible she meant. I'm not sure how how much i can value. Because her she got his eye. Colorado to melanie's point of the article or being correct eye color changes postmortem tending to become cloudy or darkened. Blue is therefore may look gray or brown within several days anchor death so That's the reason why the color may have change. Also she says the legs looking fresh. So she's referring to ills legs Really probably means that they were submerged in the cold water longer and exposed to ambient temperature less time. She said the true postmortem. Interval should probably be estimated based on the body parts. That are the most decomposed as these. Were likely more exposed to ambient temperatures interesting. Yeah so. I guess she's saying that the estimates based on you know how long The legs being fresh. You know the idea was that will. Maybe he was killed just yesterday. Maybe but she saying it's probably a better estimate if you're looking at the parts that were the most he composed and that wasn't peleg's so all right. Thank you all right so talk a little bit about the mechanic who wrote in. Oh this is interesting so if you guys recall. We talked about the fact. That bills headlights were getting stolen. I believe four or five times as headlights were stolen and we couldn't quite understand how this could keep happening. We talked about how he wrote off this loss on his taxes. And so i just want it before. He gets a point out also. We recently were guests on a crawlspace and the two hosts tim and lance. Oh gosh one of them was like wait. What headlights stolen and just could not five minutes on the interview. This and it's funny because since we've been looking at this case for so long it didn't really seem that crazy to me but hearing it from them hearing their reaction made me realize like yeah. Even weiss would be strange right so it turns out that this was quite common for nissan maxima to have their headlights stolen because there was actually an igniter that was located behind the lenses and it was actually the igniter that was often stolen out of cars but in order to get to the igniter. You have to remove the headlights. So why did people want these igniters. Well gang members use them to make quote unquote street-smart stun-guns so it is possible that the area where he worked we know as a high crime area so it is very possible that there was heavy gang activity and it's possible that the lights were stolen as a means to get to these igniters so i just thought that was very interesting again. Thank you to our listeners. For having such interesting insight right. I looked into this issue. And i saw that. It was a thing that the headlights were getting stolen. But i didn't know it was because of the igniter but you know you have a mechanic comes just great. We have you know forensic pathologist a forensic scientist A lawyer yes. People who are writing in Thank you so much for your tips. Also information from you guys. Some of you wrote in with alternate theories of what may have happened to bill. So we're going to cover your fury's and then we'll cover ours are inclusions. I also want to point out that some of these. We love our lumping together because we had so many people. And then so many theories that there were some themes that emerged. So we're talking about themes more so than specific email that contained a theory. So i think the first one this might be the one. We heard the moses. Perhaps it was a hit and a hitman. Move the car to signal a complete a job maybe shut off the hotel recorder or maybe paid the hotel to erase it and Maybe melanie order. That hit of course someone else could have ordered it as well but based on the number of people that had this theory it seems like people seem to think. Maybe this was a murder-for-hire and melanie was behind it. I thought it was an interesting point that we added here. Someone said maybe The hotel recorder. You know that one with missing surveillance may be someone. Shut that off intentionally because it was kind of odd that that seven days was missing. Yep yes so. It's definitely possible that melanie or someone else ordered hit And there's all these hotels involved right so speaking of the hotel someone wrote in. Isn't it a strong likelihood that he was killed at the hotel. Did they ever check for evidence in any hotel room. Maybe the hairs came from there. Maybe the animal hairs came from there. It's possible but also which hotel You had brought this up so there are a couple. Hotels are involved. There's a hotel luxury. And where melanie says. She found his car. But no one could ever say that wasn't substantially but then there's the flamingo in on. That's where his car is actually found. So i think this person is saying is impossible that he was killed in the flamingo in in this hotel room and maybe the hairs came from there now. There was an investigation and they looked into whether or not he was registered. There and he wasn't but that also i don't know if that means he wasn't registered under another name was the guest correct also. There is the red rufin. Which is where melanie checked to someone else asked. Isn't it possible that she did something to him there. I will say. I think that's highly unlikely because she doesn't fit either. Dozen timeline could fit. But i think it would be highly unlikely that she's transporting bill to the red roof in. And how is she doing this in you know. I don't think it's a little risky remember. We did visit. That had rufin and it's in a high populated area but that's an interesting point. Did they search any of those hotel rooms so the red roof in. Yes they did but it was later was much later. So they didn't find anything They didn't search any the flamingo in hotel rooms knowledge because they couldn't find him registered there another theory. Someone wrote in said if foul play occurred in atlantic city as seems feasible. Maybe it was an issue with a prostitute. John known in that area. There's certainly no evidence to sound worth that to be clear but that is i did see that. A couple of people who wrote that in probably because of the area in atlantic city. Okay so that's another theory Along with that was I read maybe one or two people that said maybe he just slept with the wrong woman. Yes absolutely right whether it was A sex worker. Not it's very possible that he was having an affair and it was with a husband who got very angry We definitely saw that. Come up again. So thank you for that one to amy Another listener wrote in. Although it was mentioned that melanie was slight and the suitcase test was done with enough adrenaline anger. People can lift much more than you would think. Adrenaline panic would mean a very quick messy process. Dispose of a body and her being a nurse would therefore not cut a body like that. As we suggest seems a moot point look at the robert durst case for example. He was old and frail dismembered body and through trash bags into water which also contained body parts. Very interesting point that. I thought that's a great point to be on And i'm sure there's people listening that can think of times where they had. What seemed like superhuman strength. Whether it be a child in a car you know you got free. Gonna carson in your child's in the car you know you've heard stories of mothers literally lifting up a car so i thought that was a really interesting point. I think so too. And actually i wouldn't have. It was good to frame it in terms of Is it possible. Shore yeah and. I think that was a fair point. So thank you to the listener. For renting although i do want to point out that it's likely if things happen the way. The prosecution contends that his body was cut up somewhere and then brought to the chesapeake bay. Rake the adrenaline would be happening during the cutting up of the body and you would think that would have calmed down by the time you get to the bridge to throw the bodies. The you know to throw the suitcases over but all right someone else wrote in this was a couple people that wrote this in that. I found it very particular. That bill maguire's remains were found in virginia beach where john and his wife susan live. This appears to be a lead that may not have been explored given the evidence presented so this was an interesting point because a couple of people wrote in bills remains. Were found in the chesapeake bay. An has friends. The races are the ones who identified the sketch and called into the police and they lived right there. And might i point out something at this point. Also as the composite sketch does not very closely resemble bill so it. It does seem curious that his friends were so quick to identify him and along with that very recently a listener wrote in which i thought was very interesting was if melanie and sue were friends and she saw this composite sketch would she not. I pick up the phone to call melanie. And say hey. I just saw on the local news. This sketch like could this be bill or just something. It seems like. I don't know it was very interesting. I thought it was a good question Why didn't you know they were actually bills friends. But they knew quite well. And i know that melanie had spoken on the phone with john reysen. Why didn't they immediately call her. My god we think we saw this. I saw the sketch in question. And i don't know tough call. I could see maybe how someone who knew him really well might think it was him but i also see how it looks nothing like it would actually be curious from other people who know bill what their opinion is on that composite sketch. Maybe because you know obviously we didn't know him so it's hard for us. We're comparing it to a picture. But obviously somebody right in front of you as you know presents much differently but fair points right. I mean when you're conducting investigations what you're supposed to look into. And we've certainly heard of cases where it seems unlikely. That friends are involved or it seems unlikely. But yet it seems a lead that probably should have been explored a very least they could have explored alibis and ruled them out fairly quickly. I think so. Yeah so fair point. Thank you for reading in about that too. So it's time for us to review our final thoughts and conclusions. Please tell me meghan dying to know. I have an idea. I think i might know where you're going but i am excited to hear this. Well we don't. We provide a couple of conclusions. I about whether or not you know. There was reasonable doubt in a fair trial. And second i guess. Innocence or guilt. So i'll start with the trial. I think it's really fair to say at this point. No no guests here. That there was plenty of reasonable doubt and i really do think that a jury should have seen that however i would also say that perhaps because the defense didn't do a good enough job the prosecution stepped over some boundaries and the judge made some decisions that were not beneficial to the defense they weren't able to I think at the very least. I'm shocked that they believed the whole crime scene explanation so in. This case is littered with reasonable doubt. I find it interesting. Because i think you and i might end up on a different side on some issues but i think we can both say if we were on that jury we would have acquitted. The reasonable doubt standard is that you're supposed to be ninety nine point nine percent certain that someone is guilty So i i don't think there any way that either one of us could have said that. Now get to the good part okay. What was it a fair. Trial is also a little bit different. I have mixed feelings about the fair trial. So i think there were certain decisions that did not work in. Melanie's favor i you know. I think it was a huge mistake. It's discretion but. I think it was a mistake. That bills ex-wife george lowrey were not allowed to testify and i think it could have turned the case different way so you know there were parts of the trial that seemingly were fair. Yes and parts. That were unfair. So let again. Was that trial strategy. Or you know it's hard to say. No i think. I won't say i don't know i think that the that it was a semi fair trial right. And what did you. Some actors. Just made bad moves. Let's put it that way. would you say. Let's get to the juicy part. I want to know. Do you think she is innocent or guilty okay. So i don't know if anyone's going to be surprised or i don't know if everyone will be surprised but in the end. I believe that melanie. Mcguire was wrongfully convicted. I'm actually a little bit surprised by that. Your tone over the last few episodes may be had me thinking but when we started out i would not have thought that that's funny because it was the opposite so even though i said in the beginning i was unbiased. I wanted to believe that but it wasn't true. I actually believed melanie was guilty on the start and i believe that over Quite some time. Even as i interviewed her and dug through it wasn't until i went real like the deepest i've ever into the evidence into the interviews into the trial. I mean it took everything. And i wasn't even sure of my conclusion to be honest probably until i don't know two days ago but I mean i think more. Interestingly which i'm on the edge of my seat here is if she didn't do it then who the hell did. Well okay. Let me start with the reasons why i think she was convicted. And then i'm going to get to my alternative theory number. One is obviously that there is absolutely no crime scene. And i can't find a plausible explanation tying melanie to the actual crime itself to the actual physical crime. So lack of crime scene is number one And lack of any physical evidence connecting melanie to the crime is certainly Goes along with that number. Three i guess i would say two or three. There are several untested human hairs. That were found in all those bags that bill's body parts were found in that did not match. Melanie did not match her family. And there was tons of animal hair. And i find this highly suspicious. There were also fingerprints. That did not match her family or her on. So i would personally think that to come to a conclusion of guilt there would have to be some matches in in this arena for sure okay so reasonable before the gun that was purchased by. Melanie seemed suspicious on the out front and it still suspicious. Don't get me wrong. But initially i was like well. She bought a gun. But honestly george lowery's testimony. This man who knew bill but did not know melanie. And has absolutely no reason to get up there in li- his testimony would exactly supported melanie's version of why she got the gun. Bill told him. I was a felon and i'm having my wife get a gun and a couple months later. That's just what happens. So i think for this explains the gun puts out in the in the proper context. Okay so this one was a mixed. I put this down as a point. But it's not my strongest point. The medical examiner said bills legs looked fresh. If melanie had killed him six days before. I don't think this would be the case the prosecution. This was a surprise to the prosecution if you remember when they when they heard that patty actually adjusted the theory in the end. Well maybe it's possible that she was either drugging him over days. Didn't kill him right away. Or maybe it's possible that she throws his body parts and that was in direct response to the medical examiner saying those legs look fresh. Now the pathologist shed a different opinion on this. But i still think. There's a possibility here that we're you know not looking at the fact that maybe he wasn't killed until much later. Okay let's see point number six. The computer searches which you know we dug into and did our own analysis on. I believe that the i cannot say definitively. I believe the computer searches. Were much more likely to have been made by bill. Mcguire then melanie so no. We can't say completely we didn't have our own. Forensic computer analysts. Look at this but when we put it all together in the timelines and searched the surrounding websites. I actually think it was bill. Mcguire that made These searches and not melanie mcguire. And i do believe to the point that melanie has pdr and had access to a lot. More information than bill would have had access to. I don't think she would have needed to leave such an electronic trail on okay. I'm getting there Point seven while. I sense that bill might have made a divorce difficult and might have been a difficult accident. I think melanie admitted this much. There was no financial motive or immediate plans to be with brad. So the motive is there but it's a little bit weaker for me. Even brad admits no we were. We were waiting to our kids got older. I would not have left my small kids. Melanie seem shocks on the record conversations. When brad ever even brought it up about you know i'm gonna get divorced. She was talking about. This is not even something. We've talked about so the motives a little bit week for me. But i can still see where people see. There's a motive. And i would also say that to a point that i said earlier the consistency that melanie shows she is one of the most consistent people i have ever seen. The story never changes and i find her. Consistency is something that you would have to consider all of these things when i put them together. Pretty much lead me to a wrongful conviction. Do i have reservations. Yes conclusions wrongful conviction. One hundred percent. Absolutely not you. Could i get evidence tomorrow. That will change my mind absolutely. And if i'm wrong unhappy to sam wrong here. The reservations that i had the city trips. Certainly they are the thing that the strongest piece of evidence i always thought pointing to her guilt or possible involvement and they bother me so amy and i actually went to atlantic city and we went to this motel. We drove and we took video. I think which we may put up at the date to test this idea. Could she see bills car from you know. She said she saw his car unlicensed place in there i think initially thought that's ridiculous shooting and be able to in fact when we went by i was shocked at how close the lot was to the actual road and is closer than i had imagine. I thought it was much further. Even when we kinda like goo mapping and stuff but when we went by it's it was definitely possible to see a car license plate. And i don't even have great eyesight and i was able to see the cars unlicensed. Believe very clear so it's possible certainly. Also someone wrote in about the effects of zanex. Actually two people wrote in about this. And i thought this was interesting. Melania had claimed that she had started taking xanax. And from what i've seen she didn't have a history of taking it. She said that the xanax really clouded her judgment And i thought well. I don't really know about that. And then two people wrote in one very specifically saying when she first started taking xanax. Otherwise rational behavior went very rational. She did things. She said she lost time mentioned things that she couldn't believe afterwards that she did so she didn't actually find this to be so crazy. That sounds like something i would have done. I'm still not sure that. I believe that explanation but there was some support. So my reservations definitely lactic city trips. You know. I think they are hard to understand. And you're talking about not only the fact that she went but the fact that she took a cab from high point that out. There's parts to that. Yeah no i actually know so. The interesting thing is i. Don't think the atlantic city trips. I should have clarified on there on the surface where that damning okay. So it's the kabir. He went back twice right and says i was looking for him okay. I believe that she went back on the eighteenth. It would be odd to me if on may eighteenth you know. Bill is long gone and she knows it. Why the hell is she going Again to atlantic city. The only plausible explanation. I can find on that one is that she's actually looking for him. Yeah it's the cab rides that bothered me. Come on the easy pass. Doesn't bother you as you call these. Sorry acid i jump ahead. No okay the cab rides. He's he passed. Those are the parts that i find very difficult to live with. But if i have to pick assignment. I'm going to err on the side of just irrational erratic behavior The choral hydrate prescription is my other reservation. Jackie said that she thought melanie head written it. there's mixed sort of opinions on this. I don't know did melanie right. It and melanie pick it up. I really can't say. And i can't say that i feel so strongly one way or the other. I think it seems likely that she wrote it But then i hear that you know. Bill has a pharmacy background. And he has you know. I'm sorry to say it but a forgery conviction and there was a prescription for dow mean written the month before and it makes me think someone was getting these prescriptions. And maybe that's someone wasn't melanie. But i don't even know if the choral hydrate was involved in this kreil. It could have been melanie. I some other purpose and then she just lied initially and jet the sick with it. Maybe she was doing it but she was doing it because she needed help sleeping and she realized it was forgery. And she's lied and now she's sick with it. It's it could be innocuous i agree. I don't know the explanation. And i can't speculate on this one enough so but these i think my two main reservations are the choral hydrate a little bit but really be the cab. Rides in the mass. So my alternative theory after going through everything. I don't have specific people and pointing to you. But here's what makes the most sense to me. I think that bill was killed in virginia non atlantic city. I think that bill got himself out of the house and got himself to virginia. I think that he did meet up with someone. He knew whether this is an acquaintance. Or maybe he met up with someone in virginia. I say okay. I think he met up with some in virginia and Actually i'm not positive if with people he knew he had ties to virginia looked at for six years so he knew other people not just the rices or whether he met someone and made an acquaintance in virginia okay. This fight was supposedly out virginia. So i do think he went back to virginia. I do think he was killed in virginia. I think it makes way more sense than someone killing him in new jersey and driving the body parts. Seven hours to me. That is never ever made sense now. Can i ask you a question. Yes if that's your thought. What's the deal with the car. And ac yeah. Plant the car somewhere. Else clinton nbc. Where a bill says he always go. You're saying the person in virginia planted the car. Okay cars so it's easier to get a car across seven hours. Yeah worried about driving a car worried about driving a body one see. I think the car was a plant in atlantic city which made perfect sense. So it's either someone build new or someone he met and said yeah i in atlanta. I'm you know what i mean like. If he's a talker and he's gregarious could meet someone on the first night and be about. Let's go to a seat tonight or you know so. That's are interesting. I think it's definitely possible. The car is planet atlantic city. I also think that the way that bill was his body was dismembered. I think that he was shot. And i'm not. I could not tell you if he was shot inside or outside. But i think that his body was dismembered a slaughterhouse. Why do you think that. I think that the way his body was cut definitely indicates a saw shore. I'm just not sure it's this hand-held reciprocating so whether or not it's an industrial saw you could say i think that in a slaughterhouse or type of butchery. You don't need to worry at all about tissue splutter going everywhere. Because that's what's to be expected. In london it blends in. I think there's also a lot of animal hair in slaughter houses. And i think that the way that it was explained that he was exterminated while that's also a typical practice in a slaughterhouse when a body is put in a certain way the bleeding of body. So i think for me. It seems a lot more logical that he was that i think he was dismembered. And the final part. Here i would say is yes. I believe. His body was placed in his suitcases. but i don't believe necessarily They were thrown off the bridge. I think it is more likely that someone took a boat out and dropped his body off the side of boat clinton suitcases very interesting. So going back to those hairs so your could very easily have a little more weight to it. We knew what kind of animal hairs those were. Could you imagine if they check the animal hairs. And it's not just a domestic pet right. It would be so interesting so much more interesting theory. I mean i think. I have to say and i'm impressed. Oh thank you god. I mean the fact that the body being cut up not having to worry about blood and tissue because it's going to clearly blend in even tie in the animal hairs and you know the blood being drained and you know i. It's it's a solid theory there. I had a little help but this one just so you know you did from the person who did it. not exactly. but i have some input on this Won't take full credit. But i do believe in the end. That is the most plausible explanation to make okay. And i could be totally off but hey hey well you know what again. I think that is a well thought out explanation. I choose to disagree respectfully all right here. We go amy. We'll get now but i think we've already agreed on the reasonable doubt. The only thing. I want to add to that. I just want to talk about you. Know i would definitely have acquitted her on first degree murder and desecrating human remains She should not have been convicted of first degree murder. Because i do not believe that she knowingly and purposely killed the bill were caused serious bodily harm that led to death so that is going off the legal definition. A quit quit. Okay okay okay now. I think that she knows more than she is saying. It's hard for me. To say guilt or innocence because like i said i would acquit however i cannot say that i believe she's innocent at this point i also feel saying i believe she is guilty however i do believe that maybe a more fair outcome would have been maybe accessory to murder which carries a maximum ten years in new jersey. Okay so that's kind of leading you into my theory here. I believe that. If i had to say i'm not going through the evidence the way you did because most of our points are going to be similar as far as you know. What evidence was the most damning and what leaves questions. I don't want to do that. But what i will say is i think that it is possible. That the night of the closing melanie. I'm bill maybe had a drink or two. It's possible that the clara hydrate was used to sedate bill just enough so that he could possibly be carried out against his will meaning maybe he was a little drunk a little sleepy. There are two purpose in my theory. There was nothing that melanie did by her own hands. So i believe that. She has convinced herself that she is in the wrong place because she does not deserve to be in prison for life because she did not. According to the legal definition she did not commit first degree murder. However i can imagine a situation where she perhaps set up some sort of payment or incentive to other people. Possibly one car to purpose came to woodbridge. Bill was sedated enough that they carried him down. Melanie gave one of them his car keys. I wanna backup that. Melanie perhaps supplied these individuals with the gun and the suitcases and the garbage bags bills car was packed up and ready to go with everything. They would need two cars on the way to ac perp. One driving car to driving bills car bill probably in his car just goes if there's going to be evidence a bill let's keep bills. Dna and bills car right. So that's how bills car got. Ac i think he was killed somewhere between a c. And virginia whether that's closer to ac or closer to virginia. I don't really have a reason to believe one or the other. But i do believe that melanie's trips to atlantic city were two other remove slash plant evidence to get proof that the job was done and i do believe that delaware trip might have been a meeting to give the perp the final incentive. The job has now been done. And maybe they gave proof of it. She gave the final payment. Which is why she was in delaware. And you know. I do not believe that. Melanie is capable of the cold blooded murder that they claim i do not believe that she would do such a thing and i do not believe she was capable of doing such a thing whether that mean emotionally physically mentally. I don't think she could have done it. Some of their shady financial stuff the money going in money going out. That could have actually been melanie moving money around. Although you know. Melanie claims she did have no control over the finances. That's melanie claim. I'm not sure if that has been created by anyone else. So it is possible that she was involved in some sort of illegal activity or side-hustle that was giving her some money that she was able to make these big deposits and money. Around a not again. This is all really. I'm not even positive. As i'm saying it but these are just things that i've been you know popping into my head so i think if this were the case then she should still not be in prison because in new jersey again there is a ten year max for a murder for hire so. Oh either way. There's a huge justice. Let's say my theory is true. Which again i don't know i'm just speculating here. There's a grave injustice being done because you know perp one impromptu. They could potentially still be out there. I actually believe that perp one two who were driving the cars down to a see. I do believe that one if not both of them are deceased at the very lease serving life without parole anyway because otherwise they would have an incentive to talk meaning if okay they wanna make a plea deal. They're in prison for something else. Give you some information. I know you don't believe that. Because you think that would probably self implicate. But i do think that if more than one person knows the truth it eventually comes out somewhere somehow. Whether it be on the deathbed or a jailhouse informant something happens. I feel like the people or person responsible for being the hand of this is deceased or incapacitated in some way whether they be coma you know whether they be so old and ill that or something or maybe they just started life over and they live in another country and they don't even think about this anymore right really interesting you make us the atlantic city trips and explaining those. That's an interesting theory. I actually thought about so. I tried to get my head around. Like what would be any explanation that i could tie her to the crime and my only thought was that she drugged bill and someone helped carrying. I will say. I don't think it's likely that two more people involved only because if three people now information would have been dead though or you know what i mean like. Maybe they took it to the great okay but i do have a secondary theory. Okay which would enough. I just wanna say fair enough and that was my thought to I even though. I respectfully do not think that that's the way it happened. Yeah i certainly can allow for that possibility. And i do believe if melanie is fully innocent. Which again. I don't know i you know i'm i'm still trying to figure this all out but i do believe if she is innocent. I definitely think that it was someone he knew in virginia who either met him in atlantic city. Oh as like yeah. Let's meet halfway or you come more my way but you know hang out because we do know that he did gamble with some friends that lived in virginia. It's possible he met them in atlantic city to gamble. Something went wrong foul play. I'm lines. we'll take him home with me. Because i have to go that way anyway. Oh that's interesting that actually didn't think of so that's a okay so for the audience. I hope we've given you our final opinions. you know. interestingly. When i started. I thought at the end i would have a hundred percent higher. Me no exactly right. We've given you our conclusions to the best of our ability. But i do not stand behind mine in like i said my opinion can change tomorrow like you said about yours and i do want to point out that when we started this i was like yes. This is going to be a wrongful conviction. That's why i find it interesting. We somewhat switched sweat. Because i am very i guess exert innocence minded. You know you could say One would say while meghan clearly came to that conclusion cushy so close johnny. She was the one who researched. Who spent time we our bright which could be negative or like you got too close to it. Maybe and i could certainly allow for that criticism. I understand that happens. But you could also say we'll meghan knows more because she got so So you could say. Amy came to her conclusion because she's truly unbiased or a mckinsey conclusion because she didn't know everything meghan new so it's a work the foreign against and i i'm sorry and i do have to say that is an interesting point because i never did any of the face to face with melanie. I do not know melanie just from meeting. Melanie's parents this is hard for me to say because i have such respect for her parents thank you know so i could imagine that when you get closer to something it becomes very difficult. It becomes very difficult. But i mean i think you allowed for the possibility and we both do. We can be right or wrong. This is our opinion to the best of our Best part conclusion. So we'd like to end with a couple of future steps. First of all we would love to get information still from the prosecutor's office or from the courts. It would be lovely to see what phone information was actually obtained and used and i have questions again about the hairs. The palm prints I also wonder whether could ever dog was used for the cars. And i have questions about the missing surveillance tapes so i think that it would be lovely to be able to see more. Get more evidence if possible avenue. Will this before really melanie. Brian would be to write to now. New jersey has what the conviction integrity unit. Yep and amy so where. Prosecutor offices have started going back and reviewing their own cases. So in other words the prosecutor's office that convicted. Melanie would agree to take a look back and You see this happening a lot in very progressive places like kings county brooklyn but typically you know when they're looking back at cases a lot of times those prosecutors no longer you know working there because it's really hard to investigate something that's yours. All it presents the actually an inherent kind of conundrum here. Honestly i give offices such credit because prosecutor offices at are willing to do this or really putting their neck out there. I think some of this is just a future step. Also for maybe melanie in it might It meant allow her no matter if she's innocent or guilty to at least get some of the evidence that she would like to test again. We also would love a forensic linguistics expert to help us out with these letters that we would still love to be able to determine authorship of so If anyone contact us or if anyone knows anyone please do contact us on. May i give the tip line again. Y'all we're talking about family. We'll keep checking the tip line. Yeah so Go right ahead. So of course you can always email us at info at direct appeal. Podcasts dot com. You can always write us on any of our various social media platforms or you can call us at seven three two five one zero zero nine nine six again. The number seven three two five one zero zero nine nine six and just to wrap it up. We would like to thank you again for listening to our podcast discussing the case and forming your own conclusions. Though we are finished with the season of direct appeal we are also considering cases for a possible direct appeal season two. So we'll keep you posted on that for shore in the meantime amy and i are moving onto another project that some of you may be interested in. Be sure to subscribe to our new podcast women in crime. Thanks for listening. Direct appeal is hosted by megan. Sachs amy schlossberg. Our producer is james. Varga the story arc was written by megan sachs music and underscore by desert media reported mixed and edited by justin crowd at jc studios. Special thanks to alan tuckerman. Whose work was integral to this production to view photos. Evidence and engage with other listeners. Visit direct appeal podcasts dot com and follow us on instagram facebook and twitter. If you have a tip you can submit through our website or by emailing tips at direct appeal. Podcast dot com. You can also help us out by leaving a five star review on apple itunes or wherever you listen.

melanie tom terry Melanie patty melania atlantic city stephen toronto bill maguire bill nextel Patty melanie mcguire walgreens bill mcguire Mr lesniak jay tanda joe teke piano george lowrey joe tech joe tackle
The Best Defense

Direct Appeal

1:20:23 hr | 2 years ago

The Best Defense

"In honor of the fourth of july holiday we will not release an episode. next week. We will resume our regular schedule the following week. This podcast may contain content. That is graphic and disturbing in nature. Listener. discretion is advised. If you're just tuning in we encourage you to go back and listen from episode one previously on direct appeal. They had barracks but contain victims parks. We had been able to show that. The composition of the bags of the style of the bags was identical. You can't safest that came out of the same what you say. What are the odds are. You can never be totally but ninety nine percent. You'd have to be the judge as to whether someone else cash those same bag then committed crook. Who else could have had that. These results that were presented by the stage work ballad. But once i got the report astonished that his own data show that the bags didn't match really Charade and i also think that. There was huge prosecutorial misconduct layton in deliberate. This is episode ten the best defense last week. We continue with the prosecution's case hearing from two plastics experts regarding the garbage bag testimony. This week we get to start the defense's case. Melania had joe teke pena and stephen toronto as her to defense attorneys now. I know that we discussed joe a little bit. But i'm going to refresh here just for people who need a reminder. Joe began as a prosecutor in kings county prosecutor's office but then he switched to criminal defense attorney as we know a lot of prosecutors wind up doing at a certain point. He's at a number of famous clients We discussed one of them. Blue bronco foxy brown even represented urine vander sloot. Do you remember him. From natalie holloway cat. I can't how could you not i. I know i don't know in what he represented him and his father at one point for the disappearance probably for charges. After is i know there are a lot of different things going. There were tons and i didn't realize at the time he represented them but he did. I mean he's had any number of brown. That's pretty yeah. He's he's got high profile clients. He's been in several magazines g. q. Referred to him. I like this one. I saw this quote chief cheeky referred to him as the best dressed smooth-talking hard-working criminal defense. Attorney why business. And he's sure that you didn't affect his ego all right well He's received praise as one of the most prominent trial attorneys in america. He serves as an analyst for several media outlets and on and on and he's currently practicing. Oh yeah he owns an italian soccer team. If i'm not mistaken he didn't want to talk for the podcast as well. We reached out to him twice on extended to invitations and he did not respond to either. Okay we also invited his co. council stephen toronto. We sent him to invitations as well. stephen toronto was the new jersey guy. 'cause new joe was a new yorker so Stephen tronto actually graduated from fordham law. School in nineteen ninety one. And he's a criminal attorney in new jersey with offices in newark right now. So he's pretty. I know show up in his office sensitive petition and i was going to send a follow up. I'll be right over right. So if i couldn't have been Cheap defense team there especially for tax pena. No no. this is not a cheap defense. This is you know this is again regarded as a kind of dream. Team melanie's friends. Selene said it later. Like she thought when they got joshi she thought we hit the jackpot for sure Steve toronto assault lawyer as well. So this is you know again for all purposes. This is what we look at it as a strong defense So the two of them take on her defense and things are looking up. They had been through a number of lawyers. If you recall they'd been through something like five attorneys so they settle on on these two and a great way and they're feeling really good. So how does the defense go. Well we know. The prosecution called a lot of witnesses. I think if you recall said something. North of sixty witnesses. It's between sixty and seventy five. Although i can't recall the exact number I think i've gotten to different numbers. When i i actually counted and got like two different numbers but i think it was sixty. Four to seventy two is where we're at so they're calling everyone they've got experts you know. They've got ballistic experts. They've got toxicologist they've cut. Forensics joe's got his roster right. So who are they going to call. Do they call a lot of witnesses. Well i don't really think so he calls about. I counted his well. And i think he calls about fourteen witnesses and total allow. Which doesn't seem like a lot comparatively now. The defense probably does not call as many witnesses normally. But we're talking about a real gaping disparity here and out of those fourteen witnesses. Six of those were character. Witnesses specific family and friends pretty much. Yeah six of them are family and friends. I will say she had shrunk character witnesses. They called a joke some of the patients from her practice and they really really gave her glowing reports. She was the best. I couldn't have gone through this with her. You know couldn't have had nicer things to say about melanie and her being a supportive nurse and those are people that don't have any stake in. It does her best friend and her family stick whatsoever. I remember reading when i was looking into all the media. In this case. I remember there was a forum. It was almost like a a fertility group. you know. She was a fertility nurse and they were all questioning. How could it be melanie. She's the best. She's is wonderfully kind. You know. They have nothing but nice things to say about her. obviously they usually call character witnesses. That are going to say of course They had great things to say about her. But you know this is a six character witnesses. They called elizabeth Blue and she was the woman who said that she had had a one night fling with bill. So they're calling to kind of show. What else is going on and bills live. They called marcy his ex wife. Who were going to discuss. Shortly they call george lowery Was an ex colleague of bills and george lowery relates to the gun. They called sally as we've already covered sally as their plastics Expert but they hadn't remember the hadn't even intended to call sally. She was a surprise witness. They call jesse mar as we also noted talk about the computer and then they called There was two other people. One was from the kids school and a private investigator. And i'm really not sure how much the private investigator had to add. Maybe a couple of things that he did a couple of his findings but this is their their employees from the kids. School was probably to speak to that morning in question. I take you off the prescription. Then i'm sorry one more witness who is actually strong witness for them. Most carol chassis. Who will get to as well. And she's a forensic linguist So this is their entire roster now throughout the trial. Prep they had contracted other experts. I know they had michael. Baden You know he's reputation as A pathologist who might say is very strong but they decided not to use it. Because essentially as melanie said his testimony would have corroborated what dr hawass said about whether or not someone like skin cells could come from someone who's alive or dead. He didn't have much to add although he has a name that he might have been very expensive right so very expensive. I think also. Melanie said that. They spent earlier on money on experts earlier. You know who did work for them and contract but then they didn't put on the stand so okay so she they put up the the you know some of these character witnesses and they put up a computer person. They put up a ballistics person as well. But the ballistics person didn't really help but there are let's go through some of the witnesses. I'm going to go through some of the ones that they could have called and the ones that they did and what happened. One of the witnesses. That melanie had told me about who was not called who could have been a critical witness. Her name was don zoo and she was a neighbor of melanie's whose apartment was located behind melanie's and somewhat diagonal so she was one of those apartments behind melanie's With whom melanie shared a wall and she gave a statement to the police at some point about a month or two after. I guess bill's disappearance saying that. She heard an argument between a couple late at night and into an early morning hour on around the time that melanie said. This fight happened with bill so the seems kind of important. It would be the only person to date that has ever corroborated that story right but to what extent did she actually corroborate it Melanie said that she would made a strong witness. And i asked why wasn't she a witness right And melanie said well You know my team said that. She was not in the country at the time. So let's hear there was a general canvassing of the apartment complex and this neighbor has stated that she had heard an argument and she had heard certain phrases certain things within the arguments and there was never anything else at least recorded in the investigation report. So that was something we found by accident going through as much as we could. It was like oh. Wow look at this. Of course i say to. Joe and steve we we have to find. This lady had moved at that point. And i was told by them. That from the best information they had that she had left the country. That was kind of the end of that. So whatever time goes by trials done. I am at the stage Back in like two thousand eleven two thousand twelve where i am. In the process of doing post conviction relief and assigned a public defender host. Says you know what. I haven't investigator who's assigned to this case. Let me just see. If i can run down the person just just just to double check. Not only is she alive. Well and living in the good old us vague. She's never left the state of pitcher. She actually did sit down And speak with the investigator assigned to my case and they were able to flush out the jeod hurt things late april of two thousand or four. She could not say exactly when timeframe was around. I can't remember what she said exactly but it was like two to four a m timeframe. perhaps what's more important than what you've heard is what she didn't here. Which is you know Our tools a gunshot anything like that. She was able to actually make out part of the argument. She heard him yelling. Something about we've been together five years now. I don't remember everything that got said that night and we argued a lot but at that point in time we had been married for five years you know. Nobody affects them to set aside a conviction at that point. But at least to gain the the goal is to gain in evidentiary here this stuff out further and to be told that none of this even bears examination in fact. There was an affidavit from zoo included with all of this and it was basically just just everything was either dismissed as harmless error or it wouldn't have mattered because there were so much other information that was incriminating okay. So i have the zoo affadavit. And i'm going to read it. It's not terribly long. Can i just ask you a question. Yes Prior to that it was in the police records. Something that she had originally said was the prosecution supposed to turn that over and they didn't. Melanie says that they found it. Her side what does that mean. They found it any thoughts on that. Yeah let me let me read this. I can answer part of the come back to it. Okay All right so from don zoo and i'll skip the identifying where she lives and whatnot but at the time she lived right behind them on march fourteenth. Two thousand five. I gave a statement to an investigator for the middlesex. Prosecutor's office regarding an argument that i had heard coming from a neighboring apartment on plaza drive. The statement was recorded on tape all the information which i gave him. That statement was truthful and accurate to the best of my ability. Although i could not remember the exact date of the argument it definitely happened before. June of two thousand and four. I also remember that about two months. After the argument a police officer came to my apartment. And i told him about it. The argument occurred around. Five am on a weekday morning and went on for about an hour. I was asleep and was awakened by the sound of a woman yelling. There was another voice but it was low that i was not even sure if it was a man or another woman it was. I'm sorry it was so low. That i was not sure if it was a man or another woman. The woman was pretty angry and said something. Like i've been with you for five years. It sounded like she was being blamed for something by the other party and she was not happy about that. She thought that she had been doing a lot. A lot. more was said but because english is not my native language. I could not catch it. I did not hear any. I did not hear any other loud noises. I only heard voices at the time. I thought the argument was coming from the apartment above mine but i never found out the source of the voices. No one contacted me to ask me to be a witness in court regarding what i heard. Okay so can you help me understand this. So the prosecution spoke to her and the police spoke. There was and the prosecution. Didn't turn over. How is that not a brady violation. I'm not sure if they never turned it over. I i actually think that they did turn it. I wouldn't joe use it then. I'm pretty sure the prosecution did turn it over and what melanie was saying. Was that joe. They tried to find don zoo and joe or her team someone under team. She was introduced. Joe or steve said well. We can't find her. She's out of the country and she she must have left. The country was based on appeal that they tried to find her while they tried to find her. First trial. gotcha to be a witness right. And so but they said they couldn't and so on a not on a whim but in part of her post conviction relief her public defender at the time said her public defender at that. Point was lowest giulio Said i haven't investigator. Why don't we just try to find zoo. And lo and behold. Melanie says there. She was in new jersey. She had always lived there. What i suspect happened is that she she said. In her affidavit. English was not her native speaking Languid so what. I suspect happened. Was that maybe. They went to go find her and she was out of the country visiting family. I don't know perhaps somewhere else. And so she might have actually been out of the country but it doesn't mean she left the country for good. Gotcha she never changed residents. But they couldn't locate her. They said at the time as a witness. So the reason why. This wasn't Useful for her and her post conviction relief was because they claimed it was a harmless error. Is that correct. Yes okay yes sorry. I just wanted to quickly for people that don't understand what harmless error is because it's a really interesting part of our system right so harmless error if you appeal based on something and the court believes that it would not change the outcome of the case. It is considered quote unquote harmless. Which is quite subjective right. So for example. Let's say you have a case where you know. They're trying to get a confession thrown out right And they say it's harmless because we also have the guy on video doing it. And we have his dna right so yes. The confession may have been course but it was a harmless error because we had all this other stuff. That's absolutely correct. And the things. They attribute a lot to harmless error So if you read a lot of appeals. Do they'll find that a lot of issues are harmless and what. Melanie would say what. I would say to is harmless to now. It's way too subjective criteria. Melanie actually wrote a story. She wrote one of her for you. Know the book that we're doing and she titled her piece her narrative personal story harmless error. That's great. I know because it fits perfectly so you'll read a lot of these things go. Oh this seemed really important. Yeah no it was an error but prosecution you just believe. They had a strong enough case. That data yeah. i mean. we'll definitely get to this. They appealed to What do you think about. This is so affidavit. What are you mean. So part of me feels like you know. She can't say exactly what data have now. And by all accounts they fought a lot. So yes this would possibly partially corroborate melanie statement about that fight but if they were their marriage was in as much turmoil as stated by you know melania and others. This could have been happening every night on like. I don't know that don touch on this. But i'd love to ask her. How often did you hear these voices. How often did you hear fighting. Because if this was if she says oh every other day or you have to assume that she didn't because she only remembered one argument over a couple of months so you have a big one. Yeah you have to assume though that she's not i'm sure if she had heard several arguments she referenced it because this was a couple months after so she yeah i've heard So you have to assume guesses one in a in a short time period that stood out. Yeah the other thing is she talked about five. Am to six am. Melanie's time-line put that fight much earlier in the evening now like more like a one two o'clock if i remember correctly melanie's time went for. She set that the argument began sometime after two. Oh okay they had fallen asleep on the couch and she said it began sometime after two went on for hours and she couldn't remember exactly what time she said. She eventually left the bathroom sometime between five. Thirty and six. Am okay and she said they were still fighting through the bathroom like he was yelling. Wasn't there when she left the bathroom. No that's when. She said that she heard him leave. Okay according to melania she hurt him leave and when she heard him leave she waited five minutes and then left the bathroom which is about five thirty. am so if dawn. Timeline is accurate than she heard the yelling. Almost right before bill left but yet the fighting was going on for hours before that correct. When was the dryer sheet incident supposedly towards the beginning of that right beginning would expect the most yelling to be around that time. 'cause if she's in the bathroom she wouldn't have probably been yelling. That don would have hurt. You would have thought that the yelling by melanie would have been yelling outside of the bathroom. Yeah it'd be interesting to know. Where's the bathroom in reference to dawn on apartment. He's thinking the same thing as maybe she did hear her more because and maybe they didn't normally fight in the bathroom which is why she had in her heard arguments in the past. I i would. And i and we're right. Also she had. She claimed that she had her son in the bathroom so she had a son in the bathroom. I doubt she screaming at him also done but she'd be screaming through the door and also that would mean she's yelling ladder. She's yelling through door right. So maybe don hurt don set. You heard a woman's voice. And also i mean don gave her best recollection about the time. Maybe she's off a little bit. That's true shirt. Her might not be too but maybe she saying around five but it was four thirty. Earning means so the times close enough that makes it. It's enough that it definitely lends some credence. I would say. I think this would have been an important witness. Many witnesses thinking any someone standing up and saying. Oh i heard something. Yeah what a mistake to not have her. I'm going to call it a mistake. I think that should have been someone that would have been on the stand. I'm assuming don lived alone. i don't know on. There was no information david about whether or not she had family or children or anything. That was everything i read. You is everything that was contained on. Call us so was thinking this. I was thinking the same thing. I did look for a dawn zoo. And i did contact one. Who turned out not to be the right one. So yes dr If you are listening it was does again. We'd love to hear from you so okay. So don zoo is i guess. I think we could maybe agree to some extent. They missed witness man. I would love to talk to her defense he. Maybe they have a really good reason. Why they didn't you know. They say that they couldn't find her but maybe they thought that she wouldn't have been strong as we're thinking she has. Who knows. I think that was part of the reason. I think when melina. I discussed this and it might not have exactly been in that interview. But i'm really sure that at one point She mentioned that they were like look. She may be heard something that happened right before you know the crime but there's no exact timeframe it's not as good as you think what is in here is just as important as what she heard like. She said i. I think they may be i you know. We can't speak to what they maybe thought. Look it's not you know it's not that close You know we have no idea what the timeframe or her next door neighbor's home do you know like. Has there been any talk about the people that actually shared the wall. I'm assuming they didn't hear anything else. It would have been included the so they probably were home but i guess they didn't hear anything maybe they just didn't want to get involved sound sleepers. Who knows maybe they didn't want to get involved as possible as well. you know. it's possible. Okay so john's us someone at the very least who might have had some interesting information to share during the trial and melanie talks about how you know You know she's concerned. She realizes she thought. Joe did a great job with the cross examination of the prosecution witness but now she's not sure now she's going. We'll come to our witnesses. Joe's falling short. She has concerns the court that we have limited resources. And he's not gonna use it on out. That's why we didn't turn over a report from michael baden because our resources were were tight. We weren't gonna use him and he tells the court that the resources are tapped out and he cites a late handwriting expert reports from the state but then he turns her and says we're not prejudiced by because we anticipated it and our expert has it. Well what expert because we didn't have like reflects on him personally at at one point the court heath and says blessing. I don't want anybody asking for a mistrial because of late discovery turned over. Tell me what you need is it. Time is money. What is it. So i can see if i can get it for you. He did not want to admit in open court in front of people that we were out of money he would say limited resources. But you go from tapped out to our our expert. Has it at this point. You know my eyes are just the lazing over. And i'm looking at it and he's going. I know what i'm doing. I know what i'm they had to. They ran out of money. Essentially in the cheat joe changed the retainer agreement with melanie and i guess at the retainer agreement the new one said that joe would incur the cost for the duration of the trial. And then melanie would pay him back at a later. Date so melanie's argument then is that. While if he's he's absorbing all the costs now he's not going to pay for experts. Yeah and this is her argument or her philosophy that you know. Why would you pay for. It's all coming out of his pockets. He's not going to pay for them so they're in front of the judge at one point and there is you know the state Sorry the state gets obviously their their cases. Funded by By the government by the state and but the defense also request funding defendants can request funding as well. So there's an opportunity to the judge presents you know if you need more experts if you need our witnesses. If you'd let us know what you need. And i guess melanie said joe was like we all have an ego thing you think or pride. I mean I really so. Melanie just set there. She thought that he did not want to up in open court and say where radha money were out of we we have. No you know she. She thought he didn't. It was an ego thing. It doesn't make sense to me because this is a guy who loves to win was did he just think the prosecution's case was so weak that he could just sort of. I don't want to say right along. You know but sort of just do the bare minimum. I think he thought that they did a very strong job at poking holes in the and upfront As i do believe he wanted to win. Oh yeah for sure. I mean. I don't think he went into confidence that they were going to. It sounds his reputation you know. I'm certain he wanted to win but he didn't ask for. He didn't get all the tools that he could have. I think that he. I do think that he believed that. They had done a very good job in poking holes in the other witnesses and the state's witnesses yeah. One of the witnesses called his marcy. Paulk think that's how you pronounce it pok And that was bills ex wife. They did interview marcy at one. How long they were married for by any chance. They were married for about six or seven years or so young. How they must have gotten married pretty young. Then we'll remember. Bill is older than melanie too. So that's true thirty nine and they'd been married they'd been together for like six years five years at the time and married for five years but together for longer than that khyber her together since bill was about twenty eight if i recall okay so so he was. He was married yet. Areas young early. Twenty for okay right. I think they got married. He and marcie when he had just gotten out of the navy and so they wanted to call marcy to basically show how the relationship with marcie and bill dissolved. So how did the end come about. What were the arguments like. Try to try to prove that. Bill have just left on his own courts to sh- show how bill might. Yeah exactly how. Bill might have left because there might have been a similar pattern. Let's hear it. Let's say or what you would say better to know than the woman who spent like ten years with him. This is at five. The purpose would have been to illustrate the fact that he had left her and ended their marriage much in the same way he had left me at that point that they had had an argument that he had left that she didn't know where he was alive. Or dead for. You know x amount of time. And then he came back and then he wanted a divorce but essentially they wanted to illustrate that this was business. What he does that. I would have every reason to think. And he'll be gone for a couple of weeks he'll be back and not think it's particularly strange. Also bear in mind that the prosecutor is beating to death. The fact that. I didn't file a mess. Persons for for well guess what neither did his sister. I didn't file one on the advice of of divorce council. She claimed that she did not because of the plates on the car and driver's licenses being out of state and that she didn't want to get him in trouble. If your that concerns none of that shit matters for me not that concerned because again until he doesn't show backup work then. I become concerned some point. After his death my divorce papers became public for like a hot second and the media had gotten a hold of them and contacted her and presented her with them and they asked her to to them and she said this could be my marriage except for the cats and she basically said this except for the kids because they had no children. This could be my mac and the judge. The argument was that it was too far removed temporarily. It was too long between the time he left. I buy and when he allegedly left bay. I get that it's there's a time line going on here for this. This is how he leaves all his wives. Then it is a pattern. That would have been so. I have two things the main thing. I want to bring up here. If i remember correctly bill and melanie were having an affair when he was still with marcy yes and she's still willing to testify on her behalf. Not on her behalf. We're pretty much for the defense. Says that's kind of. That's i think that says something. 'cause she's definitely doesn't like melanie. It says that credible. I think so. I think it's says she's credible. Because i would imagine. She probably hates melanie you if you recall. They had met remember. Marcy came they had about bill being camaraderie. But i don't think them. I have no idea. I did send a request. They reach out to her via social media to marcy. I haven't heard back from her. She you know. If you're listening to marcie call another one right. i didn't want to be too invasive. Either so if you're listening to you wanna talk that. That would be great. We're happy to hear from you. But i think that she you know. I don't know that she blamed melanie so much as she blamed bill. That's great. that's the right way to be. Oh i agree right. It wasn't melanie's responsibility. I also know that. I don't know how correct it would be a fair during their relationship so as i recall the time line. They were married but he was dating someone. After marcy remember cathy melanie bake the cake. Four and they were friends so actually do they talk to kathy at all. I wonder they probably weren't together that long. I don't know that. She had any relevance so i'm not sure if they did did not talk to her but i will say that so he was with her and then and then there was melanie and obviously from what marcy had told melanie he was still in contact with marsin still trying to her back so there was some involvement but i believe they were separated for a while. The other thing is she mentioned. She mentioned that Bill left for x. Amount of time now are we talking. He would leave for hours or days. That's pretty relevant. Days days. okay. It was days and is there. Anyone saying That he was abusive to them. Whether it be marcy or cathy or is anyone else okay. So here's what marcy said. I have a report that i found. It's a it's a. Let's say an interview that was conducted with a one of the investigators. And i think it was submitted into evidence because it has a bates stamp on it. It's not a very long interview. So i'll just read you a brief brief portion okay. Marcy is the victims first wife they were married for eight years and divorced in nineteen ninety four when the victim was in the navy. They were living in virginia beach. She described the victim having a big mouth controlling an a temper. She further described the victim as being verbally abusive. However the victim did put a pillow over her face. One time during an argument. Okay so that's what she has to say about eh. i mean. She's also not you know she didn't describe him in a nice light she. She actually described him the same way. Melanie described him. Yeah i would also be interested to talk to her a little bit about bills relationships while they were in virginia beach. Is there anyone that he pissed off or right because again right body was found in that area right. Yeah maybe there's another connection that we're missing here. Yeah i would love it. If someone she can call us and let us know That's actually a great point he me. Let's write that one down again right. Now she's yeah are there any other connections. Are we missing. virginia connection. please mixed one rack. Your brain was there anything like unusual about any of his relationships. He pissed people off like what was his relationship like with the races. Who knows just yeah. I love it. I think it's great. I think it's actually worth asking so again. We'll marcy and so. I think this is a huge loss for the defense though. I have to say if marcy could've so she did testify right. She testified a little bit but what she could have said was that. Wow bill and i got in a fight he He took money out of our bank accounts and disappeared and i didn't know where he was for days. Yeah this would have been. I mean this lends credence to melanie. Story that yeah. He he got mad. He walks out. He takes money this whipping. Shield is also illustrates the amount of discretion that judges have and how much power they have over. What goes on during trial so much power right. Because i think you're right. This could have been another. Just could've been another decision right. Yep and he referenced. The temporal order or the temporal timing so too much time was too much time in between is that even a thing what is i'm also thinking like on the prosecution side. Her friend melanie's friend what's his name Not the one she was having the affair with the didn't he talk about stuff about like their relationship back way back. When did he not whose relationship him. Melanie like something during nursing. I don't know. I just feel like there. There were some points in the prosecution that they definitely talked about things that were in temporarily relevant. Or whatever you're saying that we're all removed going to say that then you have to. You know. I can't think of an example right now for the ganders i i. Yeah i don't know. I mean he definitely did it might have. Maybe there was another reason. I don't know about the ordering or too far removed. I have no idea if that's really a thing only knows it's what the judge said and because of that marcy that long oh something like thirty years ago you know. I don't think it's that far removed. No i don't think it's that far removed. Either it would have established pattern but the prosecution argued. It's too far removed to establish a pattern. A pattern has to have some gas. But again just shows you know the subjectivity. Involved at every step of the way in these cases discretion on. You're absolutely right like a great example here so okay so marcy does not get to say the. You know the way in which bill left her. Which would have been helpful. Another witness that melanie's wishes they would have called. Is the building maintenance supervisor. So the building maintenance supervisor provided a sworn affidavit about the pink color on bill melanie's walls and that it had to be returned to its original color for melania. Get her three thousand dollar security back. Why is this. We're just gonna say that. Relevance well amy if you recall the apartment and all the cleaning and the fact that it smells like bleach remember. They had a witness said yes. This place smells like bleach and the walls are painted white and everything looks like you know. Clean and melania would say well we did clean it. My mother helped me. Selene helped me. Brad helped me. We cleaned it. And i painted the walls because i wanted to get my three thousand dollar security back and she says look. You don't have to take my word for it as the building mean. It's my lease. There's a maintenance supervisor. He provided the affidavit so she thinks that brought up during trial now. It wasn't so this is complaint that that would've been another witness. At least that would have supported at least could have thrown a little bit of light onto. She claimed she claimed the police skew. Do you know if luminol would be able to pick up blood. If it was painted over it would. Yeah i know but the argument is that the average person would know that you know got it. she's still. she's still would have done that because she still would have. Thought it but but there's no blood that doesn't find any so it's not like the pain could have covered this crazy. Blood splatter that she got on the walls the paint luminol would still come up but Patties argument of the prosecution's argument again was that there wasn't a blood smell. Needed such a great job cleaning and only argument. Is i clean. The house like a normal person would cleaned when they're moving out. Who wants to get the security back. So would the witness have helped probably hurt. It couldn't hurt. I don't i wouldn't say this is a critical witness. I think dawns you might have been i think. Though all these little witnesses that may or may not have been critical of what they said may or may not have been critical at least code of established. Reasonable doubt in the jerry. And this is what. Melanie said when i asked her like what do you think. What's the biggest. What was the biggest miss and she said. It's not that there's one huge miss. It's that all of these small things. When you add them up together might have changed the entire problem. None are strong enough. Anonymous are strong enough to be grounds for an appeal right. That's the problem taking together. They create some sort of reasonable doubt but by themselves. They're not strong enough. for you. Know the post conviction relief for amy. You're just gonna have to actually get to the appeal before. I actually really discuss. Aw don't don't get too excited. I mean there are various problems but yeah so and and again When we do get to the appeal what you will hear from a legal expert. We consulted as you know that all of this comes down to trial strategy right so a lawyer can say i did call this witness trust charge. I didn't trial strategy. Why it's all it can. Most of these decisions can be attributed to trial strategy. Okay so lack of the building maintenance supervisor the next witness joe did call his name. Is george lowry now. I think when. I say critical witness. I'm gonna like fly. Raise the flag here. Alert alert critical witness. George lowery was a former coworker of bills and george lori was going to describe a conversation that he had with bill about a gun. You know melanie said bill wanted me to get this gun. She has no proof of this. Will george lower. She said would have been able to testify that actually she was telling the truth. That bill did want a gun. So let's let's hear what george would've had to say. I can already tell you. He didn't get to say i was to say that he didn't get does everything. But what would he have said. My came got a hold of the contact information and bill blackberry. They started making calls to people and they find this guy he said well you know. I had a conversation with bill about this. The fact that he had a record he couldn't get the scum and he really really wanted while if he portrayed to this gentleman as being in the context of he wanted to protect his property. The fact that we've been robbed of our headlines. five times. I don't know this guy from canada pain and he was willing to get up there and and say all those and he was prevented from while he was allowed to testify to was that he had a conversation with bill about the person of a gun curious. Yeah exactly it's like everybody's like sitting there like dude 'n go on if this were allowed to get up there and say yeah you know. They'll talk to me about this. The fact that he couldn't buy gone wanted wanting his view after his wife to to get him on. It could've gotten up there and settle on that that would have been look. The prosecution argued against the inclusion of that testimony then in their closing arguments argued that the very absence of that same testimony was just positive of the fact that it was basically bullshit so you argued to keeping out. The judge said okay. We'll keep it out and then you go in front of a jury and you say well because this is in here clearly. She's lying and my own team doesn't stand up and of jack a new. I was watching over there. can you can. I'm gonna ask wanna could explain pretty well. So what happened was george lowrey. Wanted to testify exactly to what. He said that he had a conversation. A few months before bill disappeared with bill in which bill said. Yeah i wanna get a gun or headlights. Keep getting stolen which for safety purposes. But i can't get one You know. I have a record. And i'm not able to get one so You know. I want my wife to get one for me basically okay. That's that's what melanie said. The whole time right yeah. Bill couldn't get a gun. And so here's someone who will get on the stand by the way she says it. I don't know him campaigns. Yeah do this guy is. But he's like well. This is what happens. So i'm going to tell you know. The prosecution argues adamantly hearsay. Argue the hearsay rule so the state so the state objected and the court limited the senior. Yeah so here's his anything. A witness did not observe directly and has no personal knowledge of absurd. He heard it directly. It's talk a rumor that's hearsay. He didn't witness it with his own eyes. If i tell you something and you repeat it that's hearsay. It's like a silly question but if you have the conversation in person it's still it means he would have had to like how would that ever be hearsay then it. There's no way no yeah. Of course that makes no sense. Though that people testify all the time about conversations they have with people. Okay and you know why because there are a number of hearsay exceptions. Okay hundred of them. This isn't one of them. It's not one of them. And i do have probably a little bit more on that later. A little more to get technical when we get down to the actual You know the appeals court prevail in their arguments about they did not prevail in the hearsay exception. So all the jury heard was this bill. And i once had a conversation about a gun. What's the point in putting him up there. Then what's the point. And melanie said it and her she okay so everyone goes and then or we had a conversation so what that was and then in her closing again and we'll get to the closing. Patty argues that you didn't hear anyone talk about the fact that bill wanted a gun or that he ever. That's a little slimy. I so i agree. I agree and i did. I interviewed an expert about. It will totally get to it. But i don't regardless if it's breaching a legal barrier i don't like that either. I'm not comfortable with that again. This is just another little thing by itself. It's not huge. But i disagree. I think it's huge. You think this is. I think some of the other ones i don or letting marcy talk about sort of patterns. I mean i think they're all there. I do say i think they're all important but i think this one is shows that melanie's not a liar. It shows that bill wanted a gun. One of the big points that now went out and bought a gun two days before right if someone could have gotten up and said well yeah but but bill wanted a gun and actually asked exactly what she said. Yeah i think this is about the appeal. I hope this comes up there but this is an appeal issue. And here's there are hearsay exceptions. Some of them are easier than others. I think this would have been a hearsay exception. He's he's deceased so normally would they would say well if someone talked about something if someone said something. They can testify to at themselves right well. Bill couldn't testify to this the victim here but this did not prevail in a hearsay exception. So all they heard again the jury heard yup. We talked about a gun. One time i mean okay. The elephant in the room here the headlights the lights i mean why does he need a gun clearly. There's something going on in his life. That is making him feel like he needs a gun. Yeah well you could argue that Carter they have that. The headlights maximal. Okay so maybe those parts or sell you know they sell on the black market like get parts on a lot. But someone's fucking with him. How do you still remember. We discuss in the beginning that he was. He had his headlights. We're getting stolen. Melania said this and i asked her. How many times did they get stolen. She said i know five. But i think it was six or seven. I went five six seven time from their house or from. What she said was that he worked in the not so great area of newark. And this is what i guess this is here. Say because that's what he told her. My headlights keep getting stolen. And that's why one of the reasons why. I wanna have a gun but what are you going to shoot someone if you see them stealing your headlights. I mean what would that make someone feel unsafe. Someone stealing my headlights. I would be pissed off. Maybe would be a little creeped out. That's almost like touching my stuff. But i don't think i would feel the need to be defending myself with a gun. Maybe there is an argument that you know. Maybe something happened late at night. And if he had a gun he felt like he could catch someone in the act. I don't know. And i think they were actually working nights like i'm wondering like it was his headlights. If he's not working nights has had like they're just being stolen impure daylight normally working nights. That's on his normal work schedule but he did have somewhat of abnormal work schedules. He did site visits at other times. I i don't know what his i don't actually was full schedule because it was a little bit. It wasn't maybe that quite so normal. One but i think it's odd. That someone's headlights. Were stolen many times and i actually remember melanie telling me about it. And i thought it was weird and then i remembered you remember. We met with linda. And mike mike said and he actually said my caprio and who's headlights get stolen that many times and i remember thinking yeah. That is a weird thing. I did look it up though. So i looked it up because i'm like this is an odd thing. People and like people even stealing headlights at all or is completely fictional. So i looked up and there was some information about you. Know at a certain point there were certain. Models of cars and nissan was one of 'em nissan toyota. Honda departure easily. Resold right exactly so. There was a thing where headlights were getting stolen. But i can't see the same car that many times. I have a lot of questions around that. Okay so definitely the clean on his taxes. I guess or or came up on his taxes for some of the headlights being stolen and they think it was. It's totaled something around six thousand dollars in headlights want. I don't even know what headlights cost. Obviously because a lot of money houses dollars okay. So regardless the The jury doesn't get to hear that bill ever talked about this. And i think there was a we all accept the george lowery and uninterested party who has no. You know no dog in this fight. Yeah he was just going to recount a conversation he wants had so this is very credible testimony. Anyone else Can anyone else. I mean off the record you know. I know it didn't come up in trial but have you heard of anyone else talking about like whether it be his sister's anyone else. That can vouch for the fact that he wanted a gun. Or is this the only person him and melanie. This guy georgia. Melania the only two. Yeah okay this is it i read. I've gone through transcripts not transcript. Sorry i've gone through the interviews that his sisters gave and some of that will come in later. But i haven't seen any discussion at all about a gun other than these two assists but don't also know that that's the kind of thing that you would tell everybody. Yeah maybe your family. But i'm not sure okay. So missed critical. Testimony here somebody who was not actually somebody who did not testify for melanie. But who wound up kind of i guess helping secure witness you mean There was a prosecution witness. We had wendy gunther. And she was the state pathologist I contacted her so she did the autopsy and she went through You know the cause of death and everything and she was up on the stand and i called her and she actually gave me a statement that i could read. Well let me see. I spoke to her. First of all on june twenty second two thousand eighteen. She explained that she can't discuss the autopsy report with me because she's bound by privacy laws. She said she could answer specific questions about the trial testimony if we have them so what i asked her to. Address was her comments in the testimony. She said that bills legs looked fresh. This comment may have actually had. The prosecution changed their fury about. Bill's deafened timing so dr gunther said that she could not pinpoint a time of death and while bills legs looked fresh. It might be that they were frozen. I asked her. Would there be signs of freezing on a person's body such as changes to the skin cell and she said no. She said that she would not be able to tell if this was the case. Because once a person's body parts are thought there aren't any signs of freezing. She also said that. The weather conditions could contribute to the rate of decomposition. Either speeding it up or slowing it down so this happened in april so the weather it wouldn't have been hot and the water would have been cold as well so this was interesting. Dr gunther testifies She's a state's witness and she's talking about you. Know the autopsy he was shot and we had discussed by the way. The shots How many bullets were so. The state recovered two bullets. But it looks like if you read. I read this report. James and i read like several times. It looks like there were actually four shots. That were found in the suitcases with the body. No i know. You're i'm sorry. There was two bullets found in the suitcase with the bodies you know to built on body. they were in his looks like there were two other entrance and exit wounds so i think he was actually shot four times but those bullets were not. They weren't recovered so those bullets not recovered two recovered. So when i said you know there was two or three shots. It looks like four shots. Two bullets recovered interesting. I think it's interesting. Where did those other two bullets go. So it's another argument where we talk about the apartment yes. They exited him right in the apartment. Wouldn't there be. I don't know fragment or something right if it exited his body. It's gotta go somewhere. It's gotta hit something right on the thing that she she provided the thing that the defense kind of capitalized on was this idea of the fresh legs. So if you recall there were three suitcases. That were found in the one suitcase with bills torso Not to be too graphic but there was a heavy rate of decomposition and that was probably because That suitcase was also directly in the sun at it washed up kind of on a on an island and it was it was more directly exposed to sun and these The suitcase that was contained his legs. That she's talking about where the legs fresh was in the water. But the defense said whoa. Whoa if the legs look fresh Isn't it actually possible than he was alive for. This whole week mean so. That's the thing they looked fresh. She actually said they looked like I looked in the transcript. And i don't want to say this is exactly what she said but it was something to the effect of. They look like someone who was who had just recently died like yesterday like someone in the hospital. So the defense things okay. The prosecution has laid out that he's been murdered. You know about six or seven days before and then eventually his body was driven out here but the the medical examiner saying but we have a pair of legs that look like. They just their fresh. So couldn't that actually disrupt this timeline. Bill have been alive this whole damn time and now or can you be the whole time and now The the states timeline is or is thrown off by this. So this was this was in in bit In part this was helpful for the defense. So let me ask you. There was a third suitcase though. We're not part that suitcase quote unquote fresh now. So how does that make any sense. That i understand. The one that was found washed ashore was more decomposed. Because i have been in the sun. But wouldn't you expect this third suitcase. Not the one with the legs but one of the third one over thirty one. Had you know from the pelvis to like the top part of the line okay I don't recall that there was heavy decomposition. That was decomposed I don't think it was as extreme as the torso. And i don't think it was as fresh as i think it was somewhere in between so i mean what happens. Is that in. dr gunther said it. You know the temperature The or the elements but the defense says or for the time line is wrong. Yeah that's interesting. They will say this. What happened was from from the opening to the closing. The prosecution altered their fury their possible theories and said that well. Maybe it wasn't that. Melanie killed him right away. Maybe she was easing coral. Hydrate to keep him sedated for a couple of days wherein flamingo. It's in the house in her house. Like maybe we had the. Maybe we had the time on wrong or or there was an alternate explanation. What was the other one That oh that it was re that. She refrigerated his body part outside. I thought that they have an industrial size refrigerator. Freezer i mean they had a freezer. But you can't that wouldn't fit. The contents of a suitcase would not fit in a freezer. I i don't think so. I'm did all of this. Come out on cross examination this all. So yes yeah no that was on direct that was when the state the state of the state. They didn't know how they obviously did. Not how they obviously didn't know she was going to say that. And i will say. The state tried to clarify that and get the explanation. They got these alternative reasons. Why might the legs. Look you know fresh so but it doesn't it didn't help them and it also forced the state to have to reconsider their timeline and provide alternative explanations. Why did the legs fresh. Maybe it was the water but maybe it was also that you refrigerated him. Yeah i don't know about this whole idea though that In dr gunther has a great reputation. I'm sure and and she's you know she's done a lot a great number of autopsies. But i don't know about this idea that there's no signs of changes to skin cells from freezing and thawing. Did you talk to any other doctors about that question. So in fact we have an interview with Jim brown who is the former head of surgery at stanford in we asked him about the skin cell issue. Well we asked him about a couple of things. So we asked him about this issue of skin cells. Can you tell if they're frozen and it's been default would they would there be changes In the skin and he he said this is not an area that he would be. You know this is not as expertise. What he wants. He's not a pathologist made that very clear but he did say that he thought there would be obvious. Changes okay so fine There are a couple of other areas though in which he really is a specialist in one of them also relates to the skin issue. You know the durmus They talked a lot. The prosecution talked a lot and made this big deal of the human sawdust that they found. Remember so i also asked dr barron. Because i was just curious you know i looked it up at the time and i'm like is human sawdust thing and he said absolutely not. I've never heard of this ever. The only way the only place comes up is in this case and he also was talking so he looked at the information and he does know enough about skin cells In this regard and he actually said that you know he was. He was surprised that they made such a big deal. Out of you know the human sawdust through the skin cells so let me ask you Dr baron has done amputations in the past is yeah. I know. So much about this skin cells. Well he's head of a. He was head of the residency program for Or surgical residency. Who again surgeries amputations He's also by the way testified at criminal and civil trials. He's he would pass whether it's the dow of the frye standard. He's an expert witness and he can speak to skin certainly layers of scandal. You mean someone milanese defense should have called. I think that's exactly right. 'cause there's someone who would have been helpful to rebut some of this So this is what he actually said About the germans found in the car. Well i know that. One of the areas of contention in this case was that durmus was supposedly seen on the Slides of the miniscule droppings. That were vacuumed from the floor of the deceased car and there was a lot of debate in the trial testimony. That you know wasn't connective tissue. Or not and i basically say to myself. I don't know why they're arguing about this. Who cares if it's journalists journalists. The issue about the derm was that it wasn't just Epithelial cells that naturally fall off. The skin You know a pattern that occurs over a couple of weeks. Where you kind of replenish all your skin cells. It's not obvious. But they do shed and dermal cells which are below the epithelium of the skin the outer layer of skin. They don't shed because they don't have contact with the with the surface so if you found dermot a specimen it suggests that there was a deeper cut or injury or whatever to allow the dermal cells to escape. I you know again. I don't know whether it's calling them. Connective tissue or not during contains connective tissue. But my definition of durmus. Just doesn't i don't. I don't know that. I would call dermal. Connective tissue. Thought the prosecution is making a big deal of you know. They kept saying connective tissue connective tissue and he saying it's thermos You know dermatitis durmus and okay. So he got through the above layer He adds this the way they described. These lives there really wasn't much tissue so i was curious to know how they would have established as the tissue as the diseases not to mention the fact that would it not be rather obvious that you would find shed cells on the floor of his car since it was in fact his car. I didn't shock me that that they found some. I'm i'm kind of surprised. They didn't find that many cells to be honest with you. Because you've figure he uses this call the time probably has shit sells a little. So they're saying first of all they made it a big deal. They're trying to call connective. Tissue like yeah. It's like blood and gore. Yeah he's saying it's not really that and the second pony saying is there was so few they put them on slides and they made it seem mclarty said but honestly they found so little that nobody should be shocked that there were a few tiny skin cells found in someone's own car and he said he would have expected to see more anything if anything so you know what he thought was. This is like kind of something. They made a big deal out of. That is no big deal. And i have to agree. Well that sounds like a trial. Strategy of course is the announcement again of human sawdust we. It sounds horrible. It's just sensational. And it's it's not a real thing and what he's saying is okay so in bill's car. Some of been bill skilled themselves in bills car. Some of bill skins cells were there. Wow i don't know. I can't say that but that's fine. Young human yeah So actually dr burn was helpful though because he also addresses a couple of other issues where i think Melis defense please tell me. He talks about the cutting of the body. Okay so yeah. So i asked him a couple of things. First of all. I said like how difficult is it to show through bone right because she had us all through bone so let's rural areas right not just a yeah no in several areas So let's hear what dr barron had to say about that. I've done many amputations in my career. And i can tell you. It's not easy to cut through bone. The femur is the longest and strongest bone in the body and it is very hard to cut and they be is not far behind. But both of these goals are weight-bearing bones. They're very strong and thick and difficult to cut through again using a power. Saw makes it easier but still you could cut across the knee joint. Just a knife scalpels. You wouldn't need any kind of saw i just. I don't why anyone would do it the other way. I don't understand that so actually you could make the argument. If she was a nurse really knew how to do it. She probably wouldn't have done that one like that way. Somebody with anatomical knowledge would say. I'm going to go through the joint because i know i'm not gonna run into any phones. The kneecap is actually in front of the joint. I shouldn't be completely dismissing the fact there's but it's very easy to get around that because the kneecap it's held in place by ten and you can just cut the tended above or below the kneecap and get into the joint wouldn't be much easier to cut. But i don't understand why you would choose to go through the femur and the tibia and That is a real question. I don't know why no one brought that up. And i think if you want to introduce confusion you could say if you're saying that this nurses anatomically knowledgable and knows how to cut a patient person up. Then why would you do with the way she did. It just doesn't make any sense. Yeah maybe the accomplished in one leg while she did the other leg. I don't know you tell me doesn't make sense so i had asked I asked dr darren. How how hard would it be. Cut through bone and have you done it. Have you performed amputations. And that's where he sort of said. Yes i've done it. And here's here's the reality of the situation. I find very interesting that the prosecution used her profession as something to incriminate her. Yes i think. He's actually saying the exact opposite if she did have any anatomical knowledge which she did because she was a nurse then she would've never cut the body the way that body was cut. So it's exactly the opposite of what the prosecution was say couldn't agree more exactly. And he was talking. I think specifically on that one he was talking about the legs and he was kind of saying what a shoddy job like. No you know if she had any knowledge. What's your exactly right. there's no i. I know he was just kidding around. He said oh maybe accomplice said one leg and she did the other but then that means one leg would have been done well right. Yeah well i no. That's a good point. Sorry not to make light of it but but it's it's true. I think what he's what he says. Very clearly dispels. This idea that someone did. The prosecution have an expert witness. Who talked about the cutting of the body. No they have a medical examiner about how the body the body was how the body was cut and the ragged edges. And i wouldn't. The defense have called somebody like mr baron. That's what the question is here. After i spoke with him you know. I interviewed him for a little while and by the way he doesn't have a dog in this fight. This is an independent expert. You know no ties to the case. And i thought this was pretty easy to come by this information. That seems almost easier than the suitcase tests weights and it also seems great. He has a great background expertise but it also seems like kind of commonsense. So you know. He's talking about cutting through bone. I also asked him. You know what the bill was. Cut across the torso What's this what is this. Is this a mess. Could melanie of done this. You know what is your opinion about forensic pathologist or inventing anything but my understanding of this is that is absolutely impossible to get rid of every trace of blood and human tissue in a drain. They're gonna be little places where stuff collect and you can run the water all day and it's just not going to get everything out of there so that they did not find a trace of this in her house. It couldn't have taken place in the house. i. I don't know how they could have done it but wasn't there Whoever did it I just wanna point that. He's saying his understanding because he talks about how he's not a forensic the pathologists but his training i think it could be more than his quote. Unquote understanding. You know. it is clear that he knows that. I understand why he's hesitant. Because that's not his area of expertise but he is extremely credible. And i do want to point out again that he said even if you ran the water all day. They checked her water belt. Did they not right water usage life and so there was no evidence that she even tried to run the water all day right so even if she had so even more specifically you know i had asked him What would this be like. So even more spectacle specifically. He talks about what happened when he's done when he's used a saw before. If if a song with us believe me. I've used saw power saws and the biggest problem you have is that the it praised droplets of tissue. All over the place while you're doing it because it's it's done with vibration as well as oscillation if carpenters kinda saw it's going to be rotating and just imagine it's going to be kicking up. I was gonna use the term human saw but that's not the right term but it's gonna kick out droplets and Pieces of tissue and they're going to be all over the place including all over the person doing it. So that's another big problem for me was to the park. Cutting across the abdomen is extremely hard to imagine how that was done would have been real messy tent and and it would require a lot of work to do you think he adds a little bit more to that brings up another question though of all the blood and gore that it would take to cut somebody into pieces. All they could find was a. I wouldn't even call it a sliver of skin. It was one millimeter in diameter which is well very small. Let's put it that way and they couldn't even make many slide out of it because it was such a small piece of tissue. Is you know. I just don't get that like that's going to be enough to convince someone that the man was chilled and then taking in his own car In pieces i don't know were even if he wasn't taking pieces than how did the durmus get exposed. Maybe he cut himself on a piece of paper one day. The durmus fell on the floor. I don't know to me the even if they were able to establish it was his skin which you say they did so fine but how how do they know. When it was deposited. There could have been months old. Or it's the real puzzle to me. I don't. I don't understand how that convinced anyone. And how does it mean his wife. Put the skin there. I i don't get that thing. I just want to also point out. He was saying if you use a saw things spray everywhere right. I'm picturing situation where it's on the ceiling. It's on it's all it's on the furniture. There was no evidence of any spray. Nothing he's he's talking. Yeah he's talking about the message. He actually specifically speaks about a saw circulating circulating. And you can picture it right. Yeah outside cutting even a piece of wood all including in your face on your on your skin. You know what. I actually think He talks about what happens when you cut an abdomen too. So let me find. That are let me play that. But i think you would need to plan ahead if you're going to cut across the intestines you're going to get liquid or solid material. You know it ended up as cici's in the colon and you would have to be aware of the fact that you're gonna make bigger messed than even just blood. Which i know. The blood was drained by the way. That's another question. i'm not even sure. How funeral directors drain the blood out of bodies. How would this person this nurse know how to do that. I don't understand that and was there any evidence that she did to drain the book. Because i believe the way funeral directors do is they put Catheters in the federal are in vain. Drain the blood out that way but that would leave marks to. You should be able to see that. The blood is drained out that way. I don't remember anybody saying that. That is what happened. And you can't get all the blood out anyway so it's gonna make a pretty big mess could not leave a trace to me is a very interesting and difficult question to answer you know job. It would be a big job and to try to keep the mess under control while this was going on. And if you're using power so it's going to spray droplets of gore all over the room that you're using. I think he's just underscoring for us here that it's incredibly difficult to cut through the abdomen. Not only that. You're not only cutting through the abdomen. But you're cutting to the back vertebrae so this is so challenging. It's gonna leave so much of a mess. It's such a big join. It also make a lot of noise a ton of noise and they shared a wall with another yes and in the in the case the prosecution said she probably muffled it with a towel relegating soft posit that muffle of reciprocating saw. Wouldn't it cut through towel. I have no not that. I mean they think the you know i think dr barron just established for me what i somewhat thought was not possible but for me now This is you know it's a wrap on this. This did not happen. This way melody did not do it. This way to this did not happen in our house. Yeah she did not saw through this bone. I don't know if she killed him or not. But i feel very very confident saying that. She did not kill him in the manner that the prosecution says nor the place and the defense should have had someone like dr barath. They're suggesting that she used the prosecution. Say that they think she used an electric saw. Yes is there any proof that you ever purchased an electric saw. Is there any now. They look what they went through receipts and everything like that. They couldn't find any evidence of her having a solid there. Was anyone missing. A saw like her father or her through our or they went through all of her stepfather's All of his receipts and all of his tools confiscated all the tools. I don't think he got back actually. Interestingly but i it really wound up being unrelated. Brad had a saw it. But i think about it so randomly. Some stupid fair. I had to go to with my kids. I had to like say were like letting the kids try to like saw. A piece of wood and wood is much softer than bone. I would imagine i i. I don't know. I would just assume why i have no basis on this but you need to be really strong author something. Yeah it's not sewing. It takes a lot of like elbow grease. Is that what they call it. Like yes totally. Melanie's doesn't look that strong to me. At least it during trial pictures. I've never met her in person but you have she was she's she's small. She was even tinier then. So you know what i mean. Melanie also thought that. Dr gunther made some mistakes in her assessment when she gave report in the body. I thought that some of her information because for concern in terms of the veracity of her assessment. You know again if you're getting rudimentary things like a huge scar is present. I colors are kind of called some stuff into question on the other hand. She would also say how quote on quote fresh. The legs loved. And i do believe that. Other people other witnesses echoed that later on. So she's not the only person saying it basically. She also said that she could not tell his remains had been refrigerated That was something. That i thought was an impeachable statement because you can see. Microscopic changes in cellular tissue when a body is kept either refrigeration Or on ice. But with the testimony she basically wrecks the prosecution. John line not that it mattered ultimately. I feel like nothing ended up helping me. Because i'm sitting here. I asked her that. I always asked her that like what helped what didn't and she said. Well maybe this help. But in the end i'm sitting here. She sort of know what the verdict was gonna be. Do you ever about that. We're going to get to that okay. Very short like i I refuse to let you still my on that one dying to know right so she thought dr gunther she said that he. She made to critical mistakes. She said they build did have scars and bill is. We're not the bills. Were like blue or she. I don there were very light. Jazz said well. So i had questions about. You know her the rest of her if she couldn't get these two basics right. Yeah but you know that was just melanie's opinion on that one so you had mentioned The last thing we want to discuss this episode. You had mentioned that. Melanie is small ryan so no evidence of her ever taking those steroids right bill. I'm just i mean. I guess you could say it's relevant question didn't take steroids smell me taking the steroids. I'm just trying to think like how she looks. She doesn't look strong. How would she be able to tiny than to for back. People are going to look at her pictures. I mean really tiny. So just talking about the sawing which we will hear from dr baron but nobody tested the physical possibility that melanie could carry bills body even in suitcases and lift these two cases over the guardrail on the chesapeake bay bridge but we conducted our talk about what the waste about the weight of the suitcase and about how much she would have needed to lift it. Yes so The suitcases obviously redistributed into three different parts. And it was Let's see estimated that bill wade somewhere between one hundred and eighty five and two hundred pounds so when we looked it was referenced where to There was an approximate about this The weight of the The big suitcase. Which would be the torso Which had to be somewhere between eighty and ninety pounds. We actually think it was. It could have been actually up to one hundred pounds. I'm on this. Might be a silly question but i wonder because they said that his blood was drained. How much does blood way and he had. I known way the most right yeah. I don't know how much the budwood way to be honest. But they're still. It's we can still expect that that heaviest part would have been approximately eighty pounds and containing his torso. Yeah so so she had to you know be able to lift eighty pounds and the guardrail on the chesapeake bay bridge. I look got up Took a little. Searching is approximately forty inches on. so and how tall was she. Melanie was five foot three and she weighed one hundred and eighteen pounds. That's what she said. I thought she looks smaller than that. But according to her she had a very good handle on three hundred and eighteen pounds again. You look at the pictures you'll see. She's she's tiny. So i asked her at some point. Did anyone ever kind of test this out you could. could you even lift. These is this even possible and she said two things no And i think the second thing was. This is probably one of the reasons why patty had to establish that she had an accomplice Was that someone was carrying the suitcases. And i thought okay but the prosecution also said that she took this trip. One time the tr- the delaware trip. She met her parents. She gave her parents the kids and then she went. She drove back and she drives straight to the city to meet selene to recall this time line. So where's accomplish when she dropped them off on the parkway that's exactly the question even if let's say her father which we don't believe that her father was communist but then she did she must mean he probably had an alibi anyway. I would assuming that they probably looked into that now. I think so. I mean they. They remember they went to the grand jury With this injury failed to indict him. Nothing it was. I think it was weak. So and he's also. I met him. He's also a tiny man as well. He's small. Yeah guy either. But i guess the argument could be with the two of them wasting it. I don't know even eighty five pounds between two small people still really heavy well. Didn't we test. This abbey did all right so We we tested this philosophy. We went to our. We tested this theory. As you say. So what are we do. Amy no somehow my stats match. Melanie's almost perfectly. We weighed me on camera. And my height is five three It is between five hundred five three. I will admit that. I was wearing a sneaker though that could have made up for that happen into possibly But i am the same way this her. I would argue stronger than her. I never met her in person. But i do lift weights and to me. She doesn't look like she does. No offense melanie you when you were that size. But she looked And i'm not patting myself on the back here. But she looked a little more puny than i do or maybe that's just me hoping ferry me waited at one hundred thirteen pounds which was actually five pounds less than melanie claims. She weighed. okay. But my point is i think i'm stronger than her. And everyone listening amy's very strong Also so we're we matched them. We used emus a because then they did. I mean minus five pounds. Were the same height same weight. They also had two small children at the scene. Where similar age you know. It's like almost like a perfect match rate. So what would this be not an experiment but a quasi experiment or something. I guess so but i have to say going into it. I was like pump. That was like feeling like rocking like we're going to do this. You know we did was. We actually took a suitcase. We put eighty pounds of weights and ends video. Hates this so we could show the viewers will or the listeners who will be viewers can see exactly right the way we're gonna put it up on the website so we put eighty pounds into a suitcase. We went to the gym. We set a bar at thirty eight inches. The reason we set at thirty eight was because of the settings you can only set it at thirty eight or forty two. So we thought. Let's aaron this tauscher you know less than and we got amy ready To lift that eighty pounds. And yeah amy tell them about you. Were not even. I could not get any air on that suitcase. I and i kept trying. And i was like thinking to myself. It's not worth it. Don't hurt yourself. But at the same point i wanted to prove that of a strong. I was trying really hard. I could not get any movement on that thing. No we watched it was. It was not happening at all not in a at one point. I thought you hurt you back. Yeah i may have. We stopped short of really hurting yourself. And then i was like all right. Let's see what's going definitely show. I may be stronger than melanie. Megan's stronger than me. I'm sure with amy. And i have about thirty pounds on her so i went over. And i'm like i'm lifting this case. No this is happening. And i felt the same way. Did i grabbed it. I couldn't get it off the ground. And i you know really went at it and i could not move. It is no chance in hell that melanie lifted a suitcase. So why don't we talk about. We dropped the weight right. And at some point i was able to get it over but what we do so amy said okay. Let's let's let's go with us now. I'm glad you said this. Because i was want to call it in. Yeah amy said let's take twenty pounds. Let's see what sixty pounds does. So amy went. I still couldn't. I think i was able to get a little air. Meaning i got it off the ground. Maybe an inch. If i recall you i would say you got it off of that. There was no way even trying to balance it on my knee or on like The poll there was no way. I can get that up above like i couldn't budget at all and i believe you tried the sixty as well. I came in at sixty and i. I've got it higher than me but you did not over well to lift it up about two to three inches for about two seconds. Maybe not even. I could not lift at pass there. I mean it was still hurtling. It was hard as hell. I'm sixty pounds was an absolute no-go for either one of us. Suicide take some more out right so we dropped it to forty pounds and what happens at forty. I think that was when i was able to get it still was not easy. It was not easy. But i was able to do it. You were able to left. There is no way that any of those suitcases were less than forty pounds right. There was some debate that maybe eighty or eighty five nine. There's no way any suitcase was less than i don't think so. Given the weight given the weight of his body. And i suppose you could argue that maybe the legs. The bottom part of the legs were thirty to forty pounds. Okay but she got other suitcases over to wasn't just that one suitcase right. We're talking about eight that the biggest one eight hundred ninety pounds. She did not get over by herself. And so amy it said what did you say during this. They should have done a trial. What would it's like the oj. Simpson the glove. If the glove doesn't fit you must acquit. Was how we should have thought of some cutesy slogan if you can't lift the suitcase than something. I'm not quick enough to think of it now but we should think of that now but that's also very powerful for jury. Because they should've. I know i'm wondering if they didn't put her on the stand. I'm wondering if allowing her to do some sort of. I don't see why they wouldn't have done that that they could have. Then visualize it. They had the exact suitcase. They could've made a replica of the suitcase and done the same exact thing we did. This is ninety pounds as his eighty th and they could have shown it and they would have seen melanie. There is no way in hell and the very lease that could have established reasonable. Doubt absolutely basically discredits the prosecution story. Yes so it was another missed opportunity. Yeah i would love to talk to the defense attorneys and see why they didn't. They're much smarter than we are. I'm sure they would have. I'm sure they thought of that. Speak for yourself is even very hard to. These are seasoned attorney. Tell me they didn't think of it. They must have just thought. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered. I don't know well maybe it would have been the exact reason she was able to get her tested it at their offices before doing it in the courtroom. Yeah i think this is a missed opportunity for sure. Next time and direct appeal. Will melanie testify or remain silent. also mount a right the prosecutor and anonymous letter about bills murder or is it from the real killer. Direct appeal is hosted by megan saxon. Amy schlossberg our producer is james varga. The story arc was written by megan sachs music and underscore by desert media recorded mixed and edited by justin crowd at jc studios. Special thanks to alan tuckerman. Whose work was integral to this production. If you have a tip you can submit through our website or by emailing tips at direct appeal. Podcast dot com.

melanie marcy Melanie don zoo stephen toronto joe melania george lowery bill Melania Joe sally joe teke pena vander sloot natalie holloway Stephen tronto new jersey Steve toronto don elizabeth Blue
The Best Defense

Direct Appeal

1:19:48 hr | 2 years ago

The Best Defense

"In honor of the Fourth of July holiday. We will not release an episode. Next week. We will resume our regular schedule the following week. This podcast may contain content. That is graphic and disturbing in nature. Listener. Discretion is advised. If you're just tuning in we encourage you to go back and listen from episode one previously on direct appeal. They had barracks contain victims parks. We have been able to show that the composition of the bags. The style of the bags was identical. You can't safest bank. Came out of the same what you say. What are the odds are? Did you could never be totally ninety nine percent. You'd have to be the judge as to whether someone else access. Those same bag uncommitted crook. Who else could have had that? These results that were presented by the stage work valid. But once I got the report astonished that his own data shows that the bags didn't match really Charade and I also think that there was huge prosecutorial misconduct Layton and deliver it. This is episode ten the best defense last week. We continue with the prosecution's case hearing from to plastics experts regarding the garbage bag testimony. This week we get to start the defense's case. Melania had Joe Teke Pena and Stephen Toronto as her to defense attorneys now. I know that we discussed Joe a little bit. But I'm going to refresh here just for people who need a reminder. Joe Began as a prosecutor in Kings County prosecutor's office but then he switched to criminal defense attorney as we know a lot of prosecutors wind up doing at a certain point. He's at a number of famous clients We discussed one of them. Blue Bronco Foxy Brown even represented Urine Vander sloot. Do you remember him from Natalie Holloway case. I can't how could you not I know? I don't know in what he represented him and his father at one point for the disappearance probably for charges. After is I know there are a lot of different things going there were tons and I didn't realize at the time he represented them but he did. I mean he's had any number of Brown. That's pretty yeah. He's he's got high profile clients. He's been in several magazines G. Q. referred him. I like this one. I saw this quote cheeky referred to him as the best dressed smooth-talking hard-working criminal defense attorney. Why Business and he's sure that you didn't affect his ego. All right well He's received praise as one of the most prominent trial attorneys in America. He serves as an analyst for several media outlets and on and on and he's currently practicing. Oh yeah he owns an Italian soccer team. If I'm not mistaken you didn't want to talk for the podcast as well. We reached out to him twice on extended to invitations and he did not respond to either. Okay we also invited his Co. Council Stephen Toronto. We sent him to invitations as well Stephen Toronto was the New Jersey Guy. 'cause New Joe was a New Yorker so Stephen Toronto actually graduated from Fordham Law School in Nineteen Ninety one and he's a criminal attorney in New Jersey with offices in Newark Right now. So He's pretty. I know show up in his office sensitive petition and I was going to send a follow up. I'll be right over all right so if I couldn't have been Cheap defense team there especially for Tax Pena. No No. This is not a cheap defense. This is you know this is again regarded as a kind of the dream. Team Melanie's friends. Selene said it later like she thought when they got joe she thought we hit the Jackpot for sure Steve Toronto assault lawyer as well. So this is you know again for all purposes. This is what we look at it as a strong defense So the two of them take on her defense and things are looking up. They had been through a number of lawyers. If you recall they'd been through something like five attorneys so they settle on on these two and a great way and they're feeling really good. So how does the defense go? Well we know. The prosecution called a lot of witnesses. I think if you recall said something. North of sixty witnesses. It's between sixty and seventy five although I can't recall the exact number I think I've gotten to different numbers when I I actually counted and got like two different numbers but I think it was sixty. Four to seventy two is where we're at so they're calling everyone they've got experts you know. They've got ballistic experts. They've got toxicologist they've cut. Forensics Joe's got his roster right. So who are they going to call? Do they call a lot of witnesses? Well I don't really think so he calls about. I counted his well and I think he calls about fourteen witnesses and total allow. Which doesn't seem like a lot comparatively now. The defense probably does not call as many witnesses normally. But we're talking about a real gaping disparity here and out of those fourteen witnesses. Six of those were character. Witnesses specific family and friends pretty much Six of them are family and friends. I will say she had shrunk character witnesses. They called a joke some of the patients from her practice and they really really gave her glowing reports. She was the best. I couldn't have gone through this with her. You know couldn't have had nicer things to say about Melanie. And her being a supportive nurse and those are people that don't have any stake in. It does her best friend and her family stake whatsoever. I remember reading when I was looking into all the media. In this case I remember. There was a forum. It was almost like a a fertility group. you know. She was a fertility nurse and they were all questioning. How could it be Melanie? She's the best she's is wonderfully kind you know. They had nothing but nice things to say about her. Obviously they usually call character witnesses. That are going to say of course so They had great things to say about her. But you know this is a six character witnesses. They called Elizabeth Low blue and she was the woman who said that she had had a one night fling with bill. So they're calling to kind of show. What else is going? On and bill's life they called Marcy his ex wife who were going to discuss shortly. They call George. Lowery Was An ex colleague of bills and George Lowery relates to the gun. They called Salvator as we've already covered sally as their their plastics Expert but they hadn't remember the hadn't even intended to call Sally. She was a surprise witness. They Call Jersey Linn Mar as we also noted talk about the computer and then they called There was two other people one was from the kids school and then a private investigator and I'm really not sure how much the private investigator had to add. Maybe a couple of things that he did a couple of his findings but this is their their employees from the kids. School was probably to speak to that morning in question. I take you off the prescription. Then I'm sorry one more witness who is actually strong witness for them. Most Carol Chessy who will get to as well and she's a forensic linguist So this is their entire roster now throughout the trial. Prep they had contracted other experts. I know they had Michael. Baden You know he's reputation as I guess a pathologist who might say is very strong yet but they decided not to use it because essentially as Melanie said his testimony would have corroborated what Dr Hawass said about whether or not someone like skin cells could come from someone who's alive or dead. He didn't have much to add although he has a name that he might have been very expensive right so very expensive. I think also Melanie said that. They spent earlier on money on experts earlier. You know who did work for them and contract but then they didn't put on the stand so okay so she they put up the the you know some of these character witnesses and they put up. You know a computer person. They put up a ballistics person as well. But the ballistics person didn't really help but there are Let's go through some of the witnesses. I'm going to go through some of the ones that they could have called and the ones that they did and what happened. One of the witnesses that Melanie had told me about who was not called who could have been a critical witness. Her name was Don Zoo and she was a neighbor of Melanie's whose apartment was located behind Melanie's and somewhat diagonal so she was one of those apartments behind Melanie's With whom Melanie shared a wall and she gave a statement to the police at some point about a month or two after. I Guess Bill's disappearance saying that. She heard an argument between a couple late at night and into an early morning hour on around the time that Melanie said. This fight happened with bill so this seems kind of important. It would be the only person to date that has ever cooperated that story right but to what extent did she actually corroborate it Melanie said that she would made a strong witness. And I asked why wasn't she a witness right And Melanie said well You know my team said that. She was not in the country at the time. So let's hear there was a general canvassing of the apartment complex and this neighbor had stated that she had heard an argument and she had heard certain phrases certain things within the argument and there was never anything else at least recorded in the investigation report. So that was something we found by accident going through as much as we could. It was like oh. Wow look at this. Of course I say to JOE and Steve. We we have to find this lady. She had moved at that point and I was told by them that from the best information they had that she had left the country. That was kind of the end of that. So whatever time goes by trials done I am at the stage Back in like two thousand eleven two thousand twelve where I am in the process of doing post conviction relief and Assigned a public defender host. Says you know what I have an investigator who's assigned to this case. Let me just see if I can run down the person just just just to double check. Not only is she alive well and living in the good old US vague. She's never left the state of nature. She actually did sit down And speak with the investigator assigned to my case and they were able to flush out the jeod hurt something late April of two thousand or four. She could not say exactly when timeframe was around. I can't remember what she said exactly but it was like two to four a m timeframe perhaps with more important than what you've heard is what she didn't here which is you know Our tools a gunshot anything like that. She was able to actually make out part of the argument. She heard him yelling. Something about we've been together five years now. I don't remember everything that God says that night and we argued a but at that point in time we had been married for five years you know nobody expects them to set aside a conviction at that point but at least to gain the the goal is to gain in evidentiary here this stuff out further and to be told that none of this even bears examination in fact. There was an affidavit from zoo included with all of this and it was basically just just everything was either dismissed as harmless error or it wouldn't have mattered because there were so much other information that was incriminating. Okay so I have the zoo affidavit and I'm going to read it it's not terribly long. Can I just ask you a question? Yes Prior to that it was in the police records. Something that she had originally said was the prosecution supposed to turn that over and they didn't. Melanie says that they found it. Her side what does that mean. They found it any thoughts on that. Yeah let me let me read this. I can answer part of the come back to it. Okay all right so from Don Zoo and I'll skip the identifying where she lives and whatnot but at the time she lived right behind them on March fourteenth. Two thousand five. I gave a statement to an investigator for the Middlesex. Prosecutor's office regarding an argument that I had heard coming from a neighboring apartment on plaza drive. The statement was recorded on tape all the information which I gave him. That statement was truthful and accurate to the best of my ability. Although I could not remember the exact date of the argument it definitely happened before June of two thousand and four. I also remember that about two months. After the argument police officer came to my apartment and I told him about it. The argument occurred around five. Am on a weekday morning and went on for about an hour. I was asleep and was awakened by the sound of a woman yelling. There was another voice but it was low that I was not even sure if it was a man or another woman it was. I'm sorry it was so low that I was not sure if it was a man or another woman. The woman was pretty angry and said something. Like I've been with you for five years. It sounded like she was being blamed for something by the other party and she was not happy about that. She thought that she had been doing a lot. A Lot. More was said but because English is not my native language I could not catch it. I did not hear any. I did not hear any other loud noises. I only heard voices at the time I thought the argument was coming from the apartment above mine but I never found out the source of the voices. No one contacted me to ask me to be a witness in court regarding what I heard. Okay so can you help me understand this? So the prosecution spoke to her and the police spoke. There was and the prosecution. Didn't turn over. How is that not a brady violation? I'm not sure if they never turned it over I I actually think that they did turn it. I wouldn't joe use it then. I'm pretty sure the prosecution did turn it over and what Melanie was saying. Was that Joe. They tried to find Don Zoo and Joe or her team someone under team. She was introduced. Joe Or Steve said well. We can't find her. She's out of the country and she she must have left. The country was based on appeal that they tried to find her while they tried to find her. First trial. Gotcha to be a witness right. And so but they said they couldn't and so on a not on a whim but in part of her post conviction relief her public defender at the time said her public defender at that. Point was lowest Giulio Said I haven't investigator. Why don't we just try to find on zoo? And Lo and behold. Melanie says there she was in New Jersey. She had always lived there. What I suspect happened is that she she said. In her affidavit English was not her native speaking Languid so what I suspect happened. Was that maybe they went to go find her and she was out of the country visiting family. I don't know perhaps somewhere else. And so she might have actually been out of the country but it doesn't mean she left the country for good. Gotcha she never changed her residents but they couldn't locate her. They said at the time as a witness. So the reason why. This wasn't Useful for her and her post conviction relief was because they claimed it was a harmless error. Is that correct? Yes Okay yes sorry. I just wanted to quickly for people that don't understand what harmless error is because it's a really interesting part of our system right so harmless error if you appeal based on something and the court believes that it would not change the outcome of the case it is considered quote unquote which is quite subjective. Right so for example. Let's say you have a case where you know. They're trying to get a confession thrown out right And they say it's harmless because we also have the guy on video doing it and we have his DNA right so yes. The confession may have been course but it was a harmless error because we had all this other stuff. That's absolutely correct the things they attribute a lot to harmless error So if you read a lot of appeals. Do they'll find that a lot of issues are harmless and what? Melanie would say what I would say to is harmless to now. It's way too subjective criteria. Melanie actually wrote a story. She wrote one of her for you. Know the book that we're doing and she titled Her piece her narrative personal story harmless error. That's great I know because it fits perfectly so you'll read a lot of these things go. Oh this seemed really important. Yeah no it was an error but prosecutions just believe. They had a strong enough case. That data yeah. I mean. We're definitely get to this to the appealed What do you think about? This is so affadavit. What are you saying so part of me feels like you know? She can't say exactly what data have now. And by all accounts they fought a lot. So yes this would partially corroborate Melanie statement about that fight but if they were their marriage was in as much turmoil as stated by you know. Melania and others this could have been happening every night on like. I don't know that Don touch on this but I'd love to ask her. How often did you hear these voices? How often did you hear fighting? Because if this was if she says oh every other day you have to assume that she didn't because she only remembered one argument over a couple of months so you have a big one. Yeah you have to assume though that she's not I'm sure if she had heard several arguments she referenced it because this was a couple months after so she yeah I've heard So you have to assume guesses one in a in a short time period that stood out. Yeah the other thing is she talked about five. Am to six AM. Melanie's time-line put that fight much earlier in the evening. Now look more like a one. Two o'clock if I remember Melanie's timeline for she set. The argument began sometime after two. Oh okay they had fallen asleep on the couch and she said it began sometime after two went on for hours and she couldn't remember exactly what time she said. She eventually left the bathroom sometime between five. Thirty and six. Am Okay and she said they were still fighting through the bathroom like he was yelling. Wasn't there when she left the bathroom. No that's when. She said that she heard him leave. Okay according to Melania she hurt him leave and when she heard him leave she waited five minutes and then left the bathroom which is about five thirty do so if dawn. Timeline is accurate than she heard the yelling. Almost right before bill left but yet the fighting was going on for hours before that correct. When was the dryer sheet incident supposedly towards the beginning of that beginning? You would expect the most yelling to be around that time. 'cause if she's in the bathroom she wouldn't have probably been yelling. That don would have hurt. You would have thought that the yelling by Melanie would have been yelling outside of the bathroom. Yeah it'd be interesting to know. Where's the bathroom in reference to dawn on apartment? He's thinking the same thing as maybe she did hear her more because and maybe they didn't normally fight in the bathroom which is why she had in her heard arguments in the past. I I would and I and we're right. Also she had. She claimed she had her son in the bathroom so she had her son in the bathroom. I doubt she's screaming at him also done but she'd be screaming through the door and also that would mean she's yelling ladder. She's yelling through the door right. So maybe don't hurt danset. You heard a woman's voice. And also I mean Don gave her best recollection about the time. Maybe she's off a little bit. That's true shirt. Her might not be too but maybe she saying around five but it was four thirty two so the time close enough that makes it. It's enough that I it definitely lends some credence I would say. I think this would have been an important witness. She didn't have many witnesses. Thinking any someone standing up and saying Oh. I heard something. Yeah what a mistake to not have her. I'M GONNA call it a mistake. I think that should have been someone that would have been on the stand. And I'm assuming don lived alone I don't know There was no information can have David about whether or not she had family or children or anything. That was ever everything. I read everything that was contained on. Call us so I was thinking this I was thinking the same thing I did look for Don Zoo and I did contact one. Who turned out not to be the one. So yes dawn If you are listening again we'd love to hear from you so Okay so Donzel was I guess I think we could maybe agree to some extent? They missed witness a man. I would love to talk to her defense he. Maybe they have a really good reason. Why they didn't you know. They say that they couldn't find her but maybe they thought that she wouldn't have been strong as we're thinking she has. Who knows I think that was part of the reason to I? I think when malet discussed this and it might not have exactly been in that interview but I. I'm really sure that at one point She mentioned that they were like look. She may be heard something that happened right before you know the crime but there's no exact timeframe like it's not as good as you think he's in here is just as important as what she heard like. She said I think they may be You know we can't speak to what they but maybe they thought look. It's not you know it's not that close You know we have no idea what the time for him or her next door. Neighbor's home do you know like has there been any talk about the people that actually shared the wall. I'm assuming they didn't hear anything or else it would have been included by sharing image. Probably were home but I guess they didn't hear anything okay. Maybe they just didn't want to get involved sound sleepers. Who knows maybe they didn't WANNA get involved as possible as well. You know it's possible okay. So Don's US someone at the very least who might have had some interesting information sharing the trial and Melanie talks about. How you know You know she's concerned and she realizes she thought. Joe Did a great job with the Cross examination of the prosecution witness but now she's not sure now she's going we'll come to our witnesses. I think Joe's falling short. She has concerns. Joe Tells the court that we have limited resources. And he's not gonNA use it on a pathologist. That's why we didn't turn over a report for Michael Baden because our resources were were tight. We weren't gonNA use him and he tells the court that the resources are tapped out and he cites a late handwriting expert reports from the State but then he turns around says. We're not prejudice because we anticipated an expert. Has It? Well what expert? Because we didn't have one like it reflects on him personally and at one point the court heath and says blessed. I don't want anybody concur mistrial because of late discovery turned over. Tell me what you need is. Time is money. What is it so I can see if I can get it for you? He did not want to admit in open court in front of people that we were out of money he would say limited resources but you go from tapped out to our expert. Hasn't at this point in my eyes are just glazing over and I'm looking at it and he's going I know what I'm doing I know what they had to. They ran out of money. Essentially and they changed. Jo- changed the retainer agreement with Melanie and I guess it the retainer agreement the new one said that Joe would incur the cost for the duration of the trial and then Melanie would pay him back at a later. Date so Melanie's argument then is that. While if he's he's absorbing all the costs now he's not going to pay for experts. Yeah and this is her argument or philosophy that you know. Why would he pay for? It's all coming out of his pockets. He's not going to pay for them so they're in front of the judge at one point and there is you know the state Sorry the state gets obviously their their cases. Funded by By the government by the state and but the defense also can request funding defendant scan request funding as well. So there's an opportunity to the judge presents you know if you need more experts. If you need our witnesses if let us know what do you need and I guess Melanie said Joe was like an ego thing you think or pride. I mean I really so. Melanie just said it. There she thought that he did not want to stand up in open court and say where Radha money were out of we. We have not. She thought he didn't. It was an ego thing. It doesn't make sense to me because this is a guy who loves to win was did he just think the prosecution's case was so weak that he could just sort of. I don't want to say right along. You know but sort of just do the bare minimum. I think he thought that these are very strong job at poking holes in the Kennedy up front As I do believe he wanted to win. Oh Yeah for sure. I mean I don't think he went into Leila's confidence that they were going to. It sounds like this is reputation you know. I'm certainly wanted to win. But he didn't ask for. He didn't get all the tools that he could have. I think that he I do think that he believed that. They had done a very good job in poking holes in the other witnesses and the state's witnesses one of the witnesses. He called his Marcy Paulk. Does he pronounce it Pok And that was bills ex wife. They did interview. Marcy at wonder how long they were married for finance. Yeah they were married for about six or seven years or so young how they must have gotten married. Pretty Young. Then we'll remember. Bill is older than Melanie too. So that's true was thirty nine and they'd been they'd been the other for like six years five years at the time and married for five years but together for longer than that. We're together since bill was about twenty eight if I recall okay. So so he was. He was married yet. Areas Young early. Twenty th for Okay Right. I think they got married. He and Marcy when he had just gotten out of the navy and so they wanted to call marcy to basically show how the relationship with Marcie and bill dissolved. So how did you know the end come about? What were the arguments like to try to prove that bill might have just left on his own accord to to show. How bill might. Yeah exactly how? Bill might have left because there might have been a similar pattern. Let's hear it. Marcy say or what you would say better to know than the woman who spent like ten years out. But this is bill at five. The purpose would have been to illustrate the fact that he had left her and ended their marriage much in the same way he had left me at that point that they had had an argument that he had left that she didn't know where he was alive. Or dead for you know x amount of time. And then he came back and then he wanted a divorce essentially. They wanted to illustrate that this was this is what he that I would have. Every reason to think and he'll be gone for a couple of weeks he'll be back and not think it's particularly strange. Let's also bear in mind that the prosecutor is beating to death. The fact that I didn't file missing persons for Four. We'll guess what his sister. I didn't file one on the advice of of Divorce Council. She claimed that she did not because of the plates on the car. Driver's licenses being out of state and she didn't want to get him in trouble. If you're that concerned none of that shit matters for me. I not that concerned because again until he doesn't show back up at work then I become concerned some point after his death my divorce papers became public for like a hot second and the media had gotten a hold of them and contacted her and presented her with them and asked her to to look them up and she said this could be my marriage except for the kids. Yeah she basically said this could except for the kids because they had no children. This could be my match and the judge. The argument was that it was too far removed temporarily. It was too long between the time he left his first wife. He allegedly left me. I get that there's a time line going on here. But if this is how he leaves his wife then. It is a pattern. That would've been. Yeah so I have two things the main thing. I want to bring up here if I remember correctly bill and Melanie were having an affair when he was still with Marcy. Yes and she's still willing to testify on her behalf not on her behalf but pretty much for the defense as that's kind of that's. I think that says something because she doesn't like Melanie. It says that she's credible is what I think so. I think it's such a credible 'cause I would imagine you know. She probably hates Melanie. If your call they had met remember Marcy came and they come rotary about bill being commodity but. I don't think that I have no idea right. I did send a request. They reach out to her via social media to Marcy. I haven't heard back from her. She you know. If you're listening to Marcie call another one right and I didn't want to be too invasive. Either so if you're listening you. WanNa talk. That's that would be great. We are happy to hear from you. I think that she you know. I don't know that. She blamed Melanie so much as she blamed. Bill that's great. That's the right way to be. Oh I agree. It wasn't Melanie's responsibility. I also know that I don't know how correct it would be to say a fair during their relationship so as I recall the time line they were married but he was dating someone after Marcy. Remember Cathy Oh yeah well that Melanie bake the cake four and they were friends so actually do they talk to Kathy at all. I wonder do. They probably weren't together that long tip that you had any relevant so I'm not sure if they did or did not talk to her but I I will say that. So he was with her and then and then there was Melanie and obviously from what? Marcy had told Melanie he was still in contact with Marceline. Still trying to get her back so there was some involvement but I believe they were separated for a while. The other thing is she meant that she mentioned that Bill left for X. amount of time. Now are we talking? He would leave for hours or days. That's pretty rela days days okay. It was days and is there anyone saying that. He was abusive to them. Whether it be marcy or cathy or has anyone else okay. So here's what Marcy said. I have a report that I found. It's a IT'S A. Let's say an interview that was conducted with a one of the investigators and I think it was submitted into evidence because it has a bates stamp on it. It's not very long interview so I'll just read you a brief brief portion okay. Marcy is the victims first wife they were married for eight years and divorced in nineteen ninety four when the victim was in the navy. They were living in Virginia Beach. She described the victim is having a big mouth controlling and a temper. She further described the victim as being verbally abusive. However the victim did put a pillow over her face. One time during an argument. Okay so that's views which she has to say about it. Yeah I mean she's also not you know she didn't describe him in a nice light she she actually described him. Sa- same way. Melanie described him. I would also be interested to talk to her a little bit about bills relationships while they were in Virginia Beach. Is there anyone that he pissed off or right because again body was found in that area? Right yeah maybe there's another connection that we're missing here. Yeah I would love it. If someone she can call us and let us know That's actually a great point. He write that one down now. She's yeah are there any other connections? Are we missing? Virginia connection and please mixed rack your brain. Was there anything unusual about any of his relationships that he pissed people off like what was his relationship. Like with the rices. Who knows? Just yeah no I love it. I think it's I think it's actually worth asking so again. We'll marcy So I think this is a huge loss for the defense though. I have to say if Marcy could've so she did testify right. She testified a little bit but what she could have said was that wow bill and I got in a fight he He took money out of our bank accounts and disappeared and I didn't know where he was for days. Yeah this would have been. I mean this lends credence to Melanie. Story THAT YEAH. He he got mad he walks out. He takes money. This would have been. A shield is also illustrates the amount of discretion that judges have and how much power they have over. What goes on during trial so much power right. Because I think you're right. This could have been another judges could have been another decision right. Yeah I mean He. He referenced the temporal order or the temporal timing so too much time was involved too much time. It was inbetween. Is that even a thing? What is also thinking like on the prosecution side her friend Melanie's friend what's his name Not The one. She was having the affair. That didn't he talked about stuff about like their relationship. Back way back. When did he not whose relationship Him and Melanie like something during nursing. I don't know I just feel like there. There were some points in the prosecution that they definitely talked about things that were in ten poorly relevant. Or whatever you're saying that we're all removed because if you're going to say that then you have to you know I can't think of an example right now for the ganders exactly. Yeah I don't know he. I mean he definitely did it might have. Maybe there was another reason but I I don't know about the ordering too far removed. I have no idea if that's really a thing only knows it's what the judge Said and because of that. Marcy in that long ago it's not like thirty years ago you know. I don't think it's that far removed. No I don't think it's that far removed. Either it would establish a pattern but the prosecution argued. It's too far removed to establish a pattern. A pattern has to have some guests. But again just shows you know the subjectivity. Involved at every step of the way in these cases discretion. You're absolutely right like a great example here so okay so marcy does not get to say the. You know the way in which bill left her. Which would have been helpful. Another witness that Melanie's wishes they would have called. Is The building maintenance supervisor? Okay so the building maintenance supervisor provided a sworn affidavit about the pink color on Bill Melanie's walls and that it had to be returned to its original color for Melanie to get her three thousand dollars security back. Why is that relevant? Well Amy if you recall hugest the apartment and all the cleaning and the fact that it smells like bleach remember. They had a witnesses said yes. This place smells like bleach and the walls are painted white and everything looks like clean and Melania would say well we did clean it. My mother helped me. Selene helped me. Brad helped me. We cleaned it and I painted the walls because I wanted to get my three thousand dollars security back and she says look. You don't have to take my word for it. The building maintenance my lease there's a maintenance supervisor. He provided the affidavit so she thinks is brought up during trail now. It wasn't so this is her complaint that that would have been another witness at least would have supported at least could have thrown a little bit of light onto who. She claimed she cleaned. Please let me ask you. Do you know if luminol would be able to pick up blood. If it was painted over it would. Yeah I know but the argument is the average person would know that you know got it. She's still. She's still would have done that because she still would have. Thought but but there's no blood and that doesn't find any so it's not like the pink could have covered this crazy. Blood splatter that she got on the walls. The paint luminol would still come up Patties argument of the Prosecution's argument again was that there wasn't blood because Melanie did such a great job cleaning and Valentine Argument. Is I clean? The house like a normal person who cleaned. They're moving out. Who wants to get the security back? So would the witness have helped probably hurt? It couldn't have hurt. I don't I wouldn't say this is a critical witness. I think Don's you might have been I do think though All these little witnesses that may or may not have been critical of what they said May or may not have been critical at least could have established reasonable doubt in the eyes of the jury and this is what Melanie said when I asked her what do you think. What's the biggest? What was the biggest miss and she said? It's not that there's one huge miss. It's that all of these small things. When you add them up together might have changed the entire problem on our strong enough anonymous or shrimp to be grounds for an appeal right. That's the problem. Taking together they create some sort of reasonable doubt but by themselves. They're not strong enough for you. Know The post conviction relief. Or you're just GONNA have to wait till we actually get to the appeal before I actually really. Oh Hey. Don't get too excited early. I mean there are various problems but yeah so and again When we do get to the appeal what you will hear from a legal expert. We consulted as you know that all of this comes down to trial strategy right so a lawyer say. I did call this witness trust Sergey. I didn't trial strategy. Why it's all it can. Most of these decisions can be attributed to trial strategy. Okay so lack of the building maintenance supervisor the next to witness Joe did call His name is George Lowrey now I think when I say critical witness I'm GONNA like fly. Raise the flag here. Alert alert critical witness. George Lowery was a former coworker of bells and George Lori was going to describe a conversation that he had with bill about a gun. You Know Melanie said Bill wanted me to get this done. She has no proof of this. Well George lower she said would have been able to testify that actually she was telling the truth. That bill did want a gun. So let's let's hear what George would've had to say I I can already tell you. He didn't get to say I was going to say that he didn't get everything. But what would you have said when my team got a hold of the contact information in bills blackberry they started making calls to people and they find this guy he said? Well you know I had a conversation with bill about this. The fact that he had a record he couldn't get this come and he really really wanted one. He portrayed it to this gentleman as being in the context as he wanted to protect his property. The fact that we've been robbed of our headlights five times. I don't know this guy from a campaign and he was willing to get up there and say all those and he was prevented from well. He was allowed to testify to was that he had a conversation with bill. About person of gun curious. Yeah exactly it's like everybody's like sitting there like dude and go on if this dude relax get up there and say yeah. You know they'll talk to me about the fact that he couldn't buy a gun. He wanted wanted his view after his wife to get him on. This could have gotten up there and set on that. That would have been huge. The prosecution argued against the inclusion of that testimony then in their closing arguments argued that the very absence of that same testimony was deposited of the fact that it was basically bullshit so you argue to keep it out the judge said okay. We'll keep it out and then you go in front of a jury and you say we'll because this isn't here clearly she's lying and my own team doesn't stand up out of what I knew. I was watching you over there can you. Can you explain pretty well? Okay so what happened was George Lowrey. Wanted to testify exactly to what you just said that. He had had a conversation a few months before bill disappeared with bill in which bill said. Yeah I WANNA get a gun or headlights. Keep getting stolen which we face for safety purposes but I can't get one I have a record and I'm not able to get one so You know I wa- I want my wife to get one for basically okay. That's that's what Melanie said. The whole time right yeah. Bill couldn't get a Gun. And so here's someone who will get on the stand by the way she says it. I don't know him from canapes. Yeah this guy is but he's like well. This is what happened so I'm going to tell you know. The prosecution argues adamantly here say they argue the hearsay rule so the state so the state objected and the court limited the senior. Yes so hearsay is anything. A witness did not observe directly and has no personal knowledge of bad absurd. I mean you heard it directly hits. He's a rumor that's hearsay. He didn't witness it with his own eyes. What if I tell you something? And then you repeat it that's hearsay. It's like Rome or tosses a silly question but if you have the conversation in person it's still it means he would have had to like. How would that be hearsay? Then it could. There's no way no yeah. Of course that makes no sense. Though that people testify all the time about conversations they have with people. Okay and you know why because there are a number of hearsay exceptions. Okay hundred of them. This isn't one of them. It's not one of them and I do have probably a little bit more on that later. A little more to get technical when we get down to the actual You know the appeals so what did not prevail in their arguments about it. They did not prevail in the hearsay exception. So all the jury heard was this bill and I once had a conversation about a gun but the point even putting him up there. Then what's the point and Melanie said it in her she ca okay so everyone goes and then or okay. We had a conversation. So what like Whoa? That was it and then in her closing again. We'll get to the closing. Patty argues that you didn't hear anyone talk about the fact that bill wanted a gun or that he ever. That's a little slimy I so I agree. I agree and I did. I interviewed an expert about. It will totally get to it. But I don't regardless if it's breaching a legal barrier I don't like that either. I'm not comfortable with bad again. This is just another little thing by itself. It's not huge but I disagree. I think it's huge. Do you think this is? I think some of the other ones I don. Or letting marcy talk about sort of patterns. I mean I think they're all there I do say I think they're all important but I think this one is shows that Melania's not Aligarh. It's show shows. Bill wanted a gun. One of the big points was that went out and bought a gun two days before right if someone could have gotten up and said we'll yeah but but bill wanted a gun and actually asked exactly what she said. Yeah I think I think this is like I can't wait there about the appeal. I hope this comes up there but this is an appeal issue. And here's there are hearsay exceptions. Some of them are easier than others. I think this would have been a hearsay exception. He's he's deceased so normally they would say well if someone talked about something if someone said something. They can testify to it themselves right well. Bill couldn't testify to this as the victim here but this did not prevail in a hearsay exception. So all they hurt again the jury heard. Yep We talked about a gun one time to kill us. I mean okay. The elephant in the room here the headlights I mean why does he need a gun clearly? There's something going on in his life. That is making him feel like he needs a gun. Yeah well you could argue. That they have that. The headlights maximal. Okay so maybe those parts are sell. They sell on the black market right. Civics get parts on a lot. Someone's fucking with him. How do you still remember? We discussed this in the beginning that he was. He had his headlights. We're getting stolen. Melania said this and I asked her like how many times did they get stolen. She said I know five but I think it was six or seven. I went five six seven times. Its from their house or from work. What she said was that he worked in the not so great area of Newark. And this was what I guess. This is hearsay. What he told her but my headlights keep getting stolen. And that's why one of the reasons why I want to have a gun. But what are you gonNA shoot someone if you see them? Ceiling your headlights. I mean what would that make someone feel unsafe? Someone stealing my headlights. I would be pissed off and maybe I would be a little creeped out. That's almost like touching my stuff but I don't think I would feel the need to be defending myself with a gun. Maybe there is an argument that you know. Maybe something happened late at night. And if he had a gun he felt he could catch someone in the act. I don't know I think they working nights like I'm wondering has headlights. If he's not working nights has had like they're just being stolen impure daily like normally working nights. That's on his normal work schedule. He did have somewhat of abnormal work schedules. He did site visits at other times. I I don't know what his I don't actually know his full schedule because it was a little bit. It wasn't maybe that quite so normal one but I think it's odd. That someone's headlights. Were stolen that many times and I actually remember Melanie telling me about it and I thought it was weird and then I remembered you remember when we met with Linda and Mike Mike said and he actually said my Caprio and headlights get stolen that many times and I remember thinking yeah. That is weird thing. I did look it up though I so I looked it up because I'm like this is an odd thing people. I am like people stealing headlights at all. Or is this completely fictional so I looked it up and there was some information about you know. At a certain point there were certain models of cars and Nissan was one of them Nissan Toyota. Honda parts are easily. Resold right exactly so. There was a thing where headlights were getting stolen. But I can't see the same car that many times. I have a lot of questions around that. Okay so he definitely filed a claim on his taxes. I guess or or came up on his taxes for some of the headlights being stolen and they think it was. It's totaled something around six thousand dollars in headlights want. I don't even know what headlights cost. Obviously because a lot of money okay. So regardless the The jury doesn't get to hear that bill ever talked about this and I think we all accept the George Lowrey and uninterested party who has no no dog in this fight yeah he was just going to recount a conversation he wants had so this is very credible testimony. Anyone else Can anyone else. I mean off the record you know. I know it didn't come up in trial but have you heard of anyone else talking about like whether it be his sister's or anyone else that can vouch for the fact that he wanted a gun or is this the only person him and Melanie. This Guy Georgia Melania. The only two. Yeah okay this is I Read A. I've gone through transcripts. Not Transcript sorry. I've gone through the interviews that his sisters gave and some of that will come in later. But I haven't seen any discussion at all about a gun other than these two assists but I don't also know that that's the kind of thing that you would tell everybody. Yeah Maybe your family but I'm not sure. Okay so miss critical testimony here. Somebody who was not actually somebody who did not testify for Melanie. But who wound up kind of I guess helping prosecution witness. You mean There was a prosecution witness. We had Wendy Gunther. And she was the speech pathologist I contacted her so she did the autopsy and she went through You know the cause of death and everything and she was up on the stand and I called her and she actually gave me a statement that I could read. Well let me see. I spoke to her first of all in June. Twenty second two thousand eighteen. She explained that she can't discuss the autopsy report with me because She's bound by privacy laws. She said she could answer specific questions about the trial testimony if we have them so what I asked her to. Address was her comments in the testimony. She said that bills legs looked fresh. this comment may have actually had. The prosecution changed their fury about bill's death in and the timing so Dr Gunther said that she could not pinpoint a time of death and while bills legs looked fresh. It might be that they were frozen. I asked her. Would there be signs of freezing on a person's body such as changes to the skin cell and she said No. She said that she would not be able to tell if this was the case. Because once a person's body parts are thought there aren't any signs of freezing. She also said the weather. Conditions could contribute to the rate of decomposition. Either speeding up or slowing it down so this happened in April so the weather. It wouldn't have been hot and the water would have been cold as well so this was interesting. Dr Gunther testifies She's a state's witness and and she's talking about you. Know the autopsy he was shot and we had discussed by the way. That the shots How many bullets there were so. The statement covered two bullets. But it looks like if you read. I read this report James and I read it like several times. It looks like there were actually four shots. That were found in the suitcases with the body. It no I know. You're I'm sorry. There was two bullets found in the suitcase with the bottom. You know to build on his body are they? Were in his looks like there were two other entrance and exit wounds so I think he was actually shot four times but those bullets were not. They weren't covered so those bullets were not recovered to two recovered. So when I said you know there was two or three shots it looks actually like four shots with two bullets recovered interesting. I think it's interesting. Where did those other two bullets go? So that's another argument. We talk about the apartment yes. They exited him right in the apartment. Wouldn't there be at least or something right if it exited his body. It's gotTa go somewhere. It's gotta hit something right on the thing that she she provided the thing that the defense kind of capitalized on was this idea of the fresh legs. So if you recall there were three suitcases. That were found and in the one suitcase with bill's torso Not to be too graphic but there was a heavy rate of decomposition and that was probably because That suitcase was also directly in the Senate at washed up kind of on a on an island and it was it was more directly exposed to Sun and these The suitcase that was contained his legs. That she's talking about where the legs look. Fresh was in the water. But the defense said WHOA. Whoa WHOA if the legs look fresh Isn't it actually possible than that? He was alive for this week. Rush mean so that's the thing. They looked fresh. She actually said they looked like I looked in the transcript and I don't WanNa say it. This is exactly what she said but it was something to the effect of. They look like someone who was who had just recently died like yesterday like someone in the hospital so the defense thinks okay. The prosecution has laid out that he's been murdered about six or seven days before and then eventually his body was driven out here but the the medical examiner saying but we have a pair of legs that look like. They just their fresh. So could that actually disrupt this timeline? Bill have been alive this whole damn time and now or can you know. Can you realize whole time and now The state's timeline is is kind of thrown off by this. So this was. This was in in bit in part. This was helpful for the defense. So let me ask you. There was a third suitcase though. We're part in that case quote unquote fresh now. So how does that make any sense that I understand? The one that was found washed ashore was more decomposed. Because I have been in the Sun Right but. Wouldn't you expect this third suitcase which now through with the legs? What what is the third one third one? Had you know from the pelvis to like the top part of the land okay I don't recall that there was heavy decomposition. I that was decomposed I don't think it was as extreme as the torso and I don't think it was as fresh as I think it was somewhere in between so. I mean what happens is that Dr Gunther said it. You know the the temperature The the elements but the defense says or the time line is wrong. Yeah that's interesting. They will say this. What happened was From the from the opening of the closing the prosecution altered their fury possible theories and said that maybe it wasn't that Nonni killed him right away. Maybe she was using. Choral hydrate to keep him sedated for a couple of days wherein flamingo well. It's in the house in her house. Like maybe we had the. Maybe we have the time on wrong or or there was an alternate explanation. What was the other one That oh that she refrigerated his body side. I thought that they have an industrial sized refrigerator or freezer. I mean they had a freezer. Can't that wouldn't fit. The contents of a suitcase would not fit in a freezer. I I don't think so. Did all of this come out on cross examination this all out so yeah so like this came out on the no that was on direct. That was when the state the state networks against the state. They didn't know how they obviously did. Not Know they obviously didn't know she was going to say that and I will say. The state tried to clarify that and get the explanation. They got these alternative reasons. Why might the legs? Look you know fresh so but it. It doesn't. It didn't help them. And it also forced the state to have to reconsider their timeline and provide alternative explanations. Why did the legs fresh? Maybe it was the water but maybe it was also that you refrigerated him. Yeah I don't know about this whole idea though that And Dr Gunther has a great reputation. I'm sure and she's you know she's done a lot. A great number of autopsies. But I don't know about this idea that there's no signs of changes to skin cells from freezing and thawing. Did you talk to any other Doctors about that question. So in fact we have an interview with Jim Barron who is the former head of surgery at Stanford in we asked him about the skin cell issue? We asked him about couple of things. So we asked him about this issue of skin cells. Can you tell if they're frozen and it's been default would they would there be changes In the skin and he said this is not an area that he would be. You know this is not as expertise. What he would. And he's not a pathologist and he made that very clear but he did say that he thought there would be obvious changes. Okay so fine. There are a couple other areas though in which he really is a specialist in one of them also relates to the skin issue. You know the Durmus They talked a lot. The prosecution talked a lot and made this big deal of the human sawdust that they found. Remember so I also asked Dr Baron because I was just curious. I looked it up the time and I'm like is human sawdust thing and he said absolutely not. I've never heard of this ever. The only way the only place this comes up is in this case and he also was talking so he looked at the information and he does know enough about skin cells In this regard and he actually said that you know he was. He was surprised that they made such a big deal. Out of YOU KNOW. The human saw duster the skin cells. So let me ask you Dr Baron has done amputations in the past. Oh Yeah Oh he. Is You know so much about this skin cells will. He's head of a he was head of the residency program for Or SURGICAL RESIDENCY AGAIN. Surgeries amputation. He's also by the way Testified at criminal and civil trials. He's he would pass you know whether it's the standard. He's an expert witness and he can speak to skin certainly layers of scale. You mean someone. Melanie's defense should have called. I think that's exactly right if someone would have been helpful to rebut some of this So this is what he actually said About the Durmus found in the car. Well I know that. One of the areas of contention in this case was that Durham was supposedly seen on the slides of the miniscule droppings. That were vacuumed from the floor of the deceiving car and there was a lot of debate in the trial testimony. That you know wasn't connective tissue or not and I basically say to myself I. I don't know why they're arguing about this. Who Cares if it's journalists journalists the issue about the Durmus was that it wasn't just Epithelial cells that naturally fall off the skin In a pattern that occurs over a couple of weeks. Where you kind of replenish all your skin cells. It's not obvious. But they do shed and dermal cells which are below the epithelium of the skin the outer layer of skin. They don't shed because they don't have contact with the with the surface so if you've found Durmus in specimen it suggests that there was a deeper cut injury or whatever to allow the germinal cells to escape again. I don't know whether it's calling them. Connective tissue or not. Durham's cake contains connective tissue. But my definition of Durmus. Just doesn't I don't. I don't know that I would call Durmus. Connective tissue without the prosecution is making a big deal of kept saying connective tissue connective tissue when he saying it's Thermos Durham Durmus and okay. So he got through the above layer But he adds this the way they described these lives. They're living wasn't much tissue so I was curious to know how they would have established the tissue as the decisions not to mention the fact that would it not be rather obvious that you would find shed cells on the floor of his car since it was in fact his car. I didn't shock me that he there that they found some. I'm kind of surprised. They didn't find that many cells to be honest with you. Because you've figure he uses this car all the time probably has shit sells a little too close. So they're saying first of all they made it a big deal. They're trying to call connective tissue. Like d you know it's it's like blood and Gore. Yeah he's saying it's not really that and the second thing is There was so few they put them on slides and they made it seem cloudy said but honestly they found so little that nobody should be shocked that there were a few tiny skin cells found in someone's own car and he said he would have expected to see more anything if anything so you know what he thought was. This is like kind of something. They made a big deal out of that is no big deal and I have to agree. Well that sounds like a trial strategy. Of course it is the announcement again of humans sawdust on. It sounds horrible right. It's just sensational. And it's it's not a real thing. What he's saying is okay so in Bill's car. Some of BEEN BILLS SKILLED HIMSELF IN BILL'S CAR. Some of bill skins cells were there. Wow I can't say that but that's fine junk human. Yeah so actually. Dr Burn was helpful though because he also addresses a couple of other issues where I think Um Melis defense please tell me. He talks about the cutting of the body. Okay so yeah so I asked him a couple of things first of all. I said like how difficult is it to show through bone right because she had us all through bone so let's hear wpro areas right not just yeah no in several areas So let's here with Dr Barron had to say about that. I've done many amputation in my career. And I can tell you. It's not easy to cut through bone. The FEMUR is the longest and strongest bone in the body and it is very hard to cut and the Tibia is not far behind but both of these songs are weight bearing bones. They're very strong and thick and difficult to cut through again using a power sauce. Makes it easier but still you could cut across the knee joint with just a knife scalpels. You wouldn't need any kind of saw I just. I don't why anyone would do it the other way. Just I don't understand that so actually you know you could make the argument. If she was a nurse really knew how to do it. She probably wouldn't have done that one like that way. Somebody with anatomical knowledge would say I'm GonNa go through the joint because I know I'm not going to run into any phones. The KNEECAP is actually in front of the joint. I shouldn't be completely dismissing the fact there's but it's very easy to get around that because the KNEECAP is held in place by ten and you can just cut attendant above or below the KNEECAP and get into the joint. Wouldn't be much easier to cut. But I don't understand why you would choose to go through the FEMUR and the Tibia and That is a real question. I don't know why no one brought that up. And I think if you want to introduce some confusion you could say if you're staying. This nurses anatomically Knowledgable and knows how to cut him patient or person up. Then why would you do the way she did? It just doesn't make any sense. Yeah maybe the accomplished in one leg while she did the other leg. I don't know you tell me that doesn't make sense so I had asked I ask Dr Bruno. Ha How hard would it be to cut through bone in? Have you done it? Have you performed amputations? And that's where he sort of said. Yes I've done it. And here's here's the reality of the situation. I find it very interesting that the prosecution used her profession as something to incriminate her. Yes I think. He's actually saying the exact opposite if she did have any anatomical knowledge which she did because she was a nurse than she would have never cut the body the way that body was cut. So it's exactly the opposite of what the prosecution was say couldn't agree more exactly. And he was talking thinks specifically on that one he was talking about the legs And he was kind of saying what a shoddy job like. No you know if she had any knowledge. What's you're exactly right? There's no I know he was just kidding around. He said Oh maybe the accomplished said one leg and she did the other but then that means one leg would have been done. Well Right Baltimore Sun. No that's a good point. Sorry not to make light of it. But it's it's true but I think what he's what he says very clearly dispels this idea that someone did. The prosecution have an expert witness. Who talked about the cutting of the body? No they have a medical examiner about how the body was how the body was cut and sort of the ragged edges. And wouldn't the defense have called somebody like Mister Barone? That's what the question is here. After I spoke with him you know I interviewed him for a little while and by the way he doesn't have a dog in this fight. This is an independent expert. You know no ties to the case and I thought this was pretty easy to come by this information. That seems almost easier than the suitcase tests rates and it also seems great. He has a great background. Expertise also seems like kind of commonsense. So you know. He's talking about cutting through bone. I also asked him. You know what the bill was. Cut ACROSS THE TORSO What's this you know? What is this? Is this a mess? Could Melania done this you know? What is your opinion about? I'm not forensic pathologist rinsing anything but my understanding of this is it is absolutely impossible to get rid of every trace of blood and human tissue in a drain there are GonNa be little places where stuff collect and you can run the water all day and it's just not going to get everything out of there so that they did not find a trace of this inter house. It couldn't have taken place in the house. I don't know how they could have done it. But wasn't there Whoever DID IT I just want to point out that. He's saying his understanding because he talks about how he's not a friend the pathologists but his training. I think it could be more than his quote unquote understanding. You know. It is clear that he knows it. You know I understand why he's hesitant because that's not his area of expertise but he is extremely credible and I do want to point out again that he said even if you ran the water all day they checked her water belt did they not right water usage and so there was no evidence that she even tried to run the water all day right so even if she had so even more specifically you know a yeah I had asked him What would this be like? So even more specifically specifically he talks about what's happened when he's done when he's used a saw before. If a saw was used believe me I've used saw power saws pen. The biggest problem you have is that praised droplets of tissue. All over the place while you're doing it because it's it's done with gration as well as our solution and if it's a carpenter's Kinda saw it's going to be rotating just imagine it's going to be kicking up. I was GONNA use the term human sawdust but that's not the right term but it's GONNA kick out droplets and Pieces of Tissue. And they're going to be all over the place including over the person doing it. So that's another big problem for me. Is The key part cutting across the abdomen? Extremely hard to imagine how that was done it would have been real messy and and and it would require a lot of work to do think he adds a little bit more to that brings up another question though of all a Lotta and Gore that it would take to cut somebody into pieces. All they could find was I wouldn't even call it a sliver of skin. It was one millimeter in diameter. Which is well very small. Let's put it that way and they couldn't even make many slides out of it because it was such a small piece of tissue. You know I I just don't get that like that's going to be enough to convince someone that the man was killed and then taking in his own car In pieces I don't know or even if he wasn't taking in pieces than how did the Durmus get exposed? Maybe cut himself on a piece of paper one day. The Germans fell on the floor. I I don't know to me the even if they were able to establish it was his skin which you say they did so fine but how how do they know. When it was deposited. There could have been months older. It's the real puzzle to me. I don't I don't understand how that convinced anyone. And how does it mean that his wife put the skin there? I I don't get that whole thing. I just want to also point out. He was saying if you use a saw thing spray everywhere right. I'm picturing a situation where it's on the ceiling. It's on it's all on the furniture. There was no evidence of any spray. Nothing he's he's talking. Yeah he's talking about the message. He actually specifically speaks about a sauce circulating circulating. And you can picture it right outside cutting even a piece of wood all including in your face on your on your you know what I actually think. He talks about what happens when you cut an abdomen too and that here. So Lemme Lemme find. That are. Let me play that. You would need to plan ahead. If you're gonNA cut across the intestines you're gonNA get liquid and or solid material you know ended up as CICI's in the colon and you would have to be aware of the fact that you're gonNA make a bigger mess than even just blood which I know. The blood was drained by the way. That's another question. I'm not even sure. How funeral directors drain the blood out of bodies? How would this person this nurse know how to do that? I I don't understand that. And was there any evidence that she did? Drain the show. 'cause I believe the way you know directors do as is they put catheters in the federal are in vain drain. The blood out that way but that would leave marks to. You should be able to see that. The blood was drained out that way. And I don't remember anybody saying that. That is what happened. And and you can't get all the blood out anyway so it's GonNa make pretty big mess cannot leave a trace to me is a very interesting and difficult question to answer. You know it's a job. It would be a big job and to try to keep the mess under control while this was going on. And if you're using a power so it's GonNa spray droplets of Gore all over the room that you're using okay. I think he's just underscoring for us here. That it's incredibly difficult to cut through the abdomen. Not only that. You're not only cutting through the abdomen. But you're cutting the back vertebrae so this is so challenging. It's GonNa leave so much of a message. Such a big giant and also make a lot of noise a ton of noise and they shared a wall with another yes and in the in the case the prosecution said she probably muffled it with a towel. A relegating SAW PASTA. Would that how do you muffle of reciprocating saw? Wouldn't it cut through a town full that I I mean they think the doctor Baron just established for me what I somewhat thought was not possible but for me now This is you know it's a wrap on this. This didn't happen. This way melody did not do it way. Did this did not happen in our house. Yeah she did not solve through this bone. Yeah I don't know if she killed him or not but I feel very very confident saying that. She did not kill him in the manner that the prosecution says nor the place and the defense should have had someone like Dr Barreau Yep. They're suggesting that she used the prosecution. Say that they think she's an electric saw. Yes is there any proof that you ever purchase an electric saw? Is there any no they look? They went through receipts and everything like that. They couldn't find any evidence of having assaulted. Anyone missing saw like her father or her or they went through all of her stepfather's All of his receipts and all of his tools confiscated all the tools. I don't think he got it back. Actually interestingly but I it really wound up being unrelated bradshaw but think about it so randomly. Some stupid fair. I had to go with my kids. I had to like say. We're like letting the kids try to like saw. A piece of wood and wood is much softer than bone. I would imagine. I don't know I would. I don't know either. I would just assume I don't know why I have no basis on this but you need to be really strong. Draw through something. It's not sewing and takes a lot of like elbow grease. Is that what they call it? I guess I'll agrees. Totally Melanie's doesn't look that strong to me at least it during trial pictures. I've never met her in person but you have she was she's small. She was even Tinier then so unless she's you know what I mean. Melanie also thought that. Dr Gunther made some mistakes in her assessment when she gave a report. T- examine the body. I thought that some of her information. It's cause for concern in terms of the veracity of her assessment. You know again if you're getting rudimentary things like a huge scar is present. I colors wrong kind of called some stuff. Next question on the other hand she would also say how quote unquote fresh. The legs looked and I do believe that. Other people other witnesses echo that later on. So she's not the only person saying it basically. She also said that she could not tell if his remains had been refrigerated That was something that I thought was an impeachable statement because you can see. Microscopic changes in cellular tissue when a body is kept either end refrigeration Or ON ICE. But with the testimony she basically wrecks the prosecution's time line. Not that matter ultimately. I feel like nothing ended up helping me because I'm sitting here. I asked her that I always asked her. That like what helped what didn't and she said. Well maybe this help but in the end I'm sitting. She sort of know what the verdict was. GonNa be the. Do you ever talked about that. We're going to get to that okay. Very short I refuse to let you still my thunder on that one. I dying to know right so she thought Dr Gunther. She said that He. She made critical mistakes. She said they build did have scars and bills is. We're not the bills is we're like blue or or I don't there are very light. Jazz said so. I had questions about you. Know her the rest of her. If she couldn't get these to basics right yeah but You know that was just Melanie's opinion on that one. So you had mentioned I guess the last thing. We want to discuss this episode. You had mentioned that. Melanie is Small Ryan. So no evidence of her taking those steroids. Right bill I'm just I mean. I guess you could say it's wrong question didn't bill take. Steroids smell taking the steroids. I'm just trying to think like how she looks. She doesn't look strong. How would she be able to tiny then to for? We're going to go back and people are going to look at her pictures. I mean really tiny so just talking about the sawing which we will hear from Dr Baron but nobody tested the physical possibility that Melanie could carry bills body even in suitcases and lift these cases over the guardrail on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge but we conducted our only talk about what the waste about the weight of the suitcase and about how much you would have needed to lift it. Yes so The suitcases obviously distribute into three different parts and it was Let's see estimated that Bill Wade somewhere between one hundred and eighty five and two hundred pounds so when we looked it was referenced somewhere to There was a an approximate about this The weight of the The biggest suitcase. Which would be the torso Which had to be? Somewhere between eighty and ninety pounds. We actually think it was a it could have been actually up to one hundred pounds. I'm on this might be a silly question but I wonder because they said that. His blood was drained. How much does blood way and the idea? I know bones would weigh the most right yeah. I don't know how much the way to be honest but there is still. It's we can still expect that that that heaviest part would have been approximately eighty pounds and it pretty much containing his torso. Yeah So so she had to be able to lift eighty pounds and the guardrail on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. I look that up Took a little. Searching is approximately forty inches on. So and how tall is she? Melanie was five foot three and she weighed one hundred and eighteen pounds. And that's what she said look smaller than that but according to Hirsch head a very good handle on three hundred eighteen pounds again. You look at the pictures you'll see. She's she's tiny so I had asked her at some point. Did anyone ever kind of like tests out like that. You could. Could you even lift? The is this even possible. And she said two things no And I think the second thing was this is probably one of the reasons why Patty how to establish that she had an accomplice was that someone was carrying the suitcases. And I thought okay but the prosecution said that she took this trip one time the the Delaware trip. She met her parents. She gave her parents the kids and then she went. She drove back and she drives straight to the city to meet Selene to recall his timeline. So where's her accomplish. She dropped him off on the parkway things. That's exactly the question. Even if let's say her father which we don't believe that her father was or congress but then she did. He probably had an alibi anyway. I would assuming that they probably looked into that now. I think so I mean they try. They remember they went to the grand jury With us and we're injury failed to indict him had nothing. Yeah it was. I think it was weak. So and he's also I mean I met him. He's also a tiny man as well. He's small yeah guy either. I guess the argument could be with the two of them wasting. I don't know even eighty five pounds between two small people still really heavy. Didn't we test this out? He did all right so We we tested this philosophy. We went to our. We tested this theory. Say so what do we do? Amy No Somehow my stats match. Melanie's almost perfectly. We weighed me on camera. And my height is five three It is between five and five three. I will admit that I was wearing a sneaker though that could have made up for that having into possibly But I am the same way this her. I would argue stronger than her. I never met her in person but I do lift weights and to me. She doesn't look like she doesn't know offense melanie versus when you're that size but she looked and I'm not patting myself on the back here but she looks a little more puny than I do or maybe that's just me hoping to be fair. I mean you waited in one hundred thirteen pounds which was actually five pounds less than Melanie claims. She wait okay but my point is. I think I'm stronger than her. And everyone listening as very strong as you also I it. So we're we match them. We used emus attest because then they did. I mean minus five pounds the same height same weight. They also had two small children at the scene. Were similar age. You know. It's almost like a perfect match right. So what would this be not an experiment but a cause.'? Experiment or something. Yeah I guess so but I have to say going into it. I was like pumped. I was like feeling like rocking like I'll get to do this. We did was. We actually took a suitcase. We put eighty pounds of weights an end zone video so we could show the viewers will or the listeners who will be viewers can see exactly right the way we're going to put it up on the website so we put eighty pounds into a suitcase. We went to the gym. We set a bar at thirty eight inches. The reason we set it at thirty eight was because of the settings you can only set it at thirty eight or forty two so we thought let's air on the show you know less than and we got amy ready To lift that eighty pounds. Yeah Amy tell them about you. Were not even. I could not get any air on that suitcase. I and I kept trying and I was like thinking to myself. It's not worth it. Don't hurt yourself but at the same point I wanted to prove that of a strong so I was trying really hard. I could not get any movement on that thing. No no we watched her it was. It was not happening at all at one point. I thought you hurt you back. Yeah I may have we we. We stopped short of really hurting yourself and then I was like all right. Let's see what's going on. I may be stronger than Melanie. Megan's epilogue stronger than me started. Amy and I have about thirty pounds on her so I went over and I'm like I'm lifting the suitcase. No you know this is happening and I felt the same way. Did I grabbed it? I couldn't get it off the ground and I work really went at it and I could not move. It is no chance in hell that Melanie lifted a suitcase. So why don't we talk about? We drop the weight right and at some point I was able to get it over. But what do we do? So Amy said okay. Let's let's let's go with us now. I'm glad you said this because I was eighty pounds. I was willing to call it a jet. Amy Said let's take twenty pounds out. What see what? Sixty pounds does. So amy went. I still couldn't I. I think I was able to get a little air. Meaning I got it off the ground. Maybe an inch. If I recall you I would say you got it off second. There was no way even trying to balance it on my knee or on like The poll there was no way I can get that up about like I couldn't budget at all and I believe you tried the sixty as well. I came at sixty and I've got it higher than me but you did not get over to lift it up about two to three inches for about two seconds. Maybe not even I could not lift it past there. I mean it was it still hurtling. It was hard as hell. I'm so sixty. Pounds was an absolute no. Go for other one of us. Suicide take some more out right so we dropped it to forty pounds and what happens at forty think that was when I was able to get it still was not easy. It was not easy but I was able to do it. You were able to left at. Yeah but there is no way that any of those suitcases were less than forty pounds. Right there was some debate that maybe eighty or eighty five or ninety. There's no way any suitcase was less than I don't think so. Given the weight gain the weight of his body. I suppose you could argue that. Maybe the legs. The bottom part of the legs were thirty to forty pounds. Okay but she got other over to wasn't just that one suitcase we're talking about eight. Th the biggest one eight hundred ninety pounds. She did not get that our by herself. So amy had said what did you say during this? They should have done a trial. What would it's like the Oj? Simpson the glove. The glove doesn't fit you. Must acquit was how we should have thought of some cutesy slogan. Can't lift the suitcase than something. I'm not quick enough to think of it now but we should think of that and now but that's also very powerful for jury duty because they should have. I know I'm wondering if you know they didn't put her on the stand. I'm wondering if allowing her to do some sort they. I don't see why wouldn't have done that. The they could have then visualized that they had the exact suitcase. They could make a replica of the suitcase and done the same exact thing we did. This is ninety. Pounds is eighty and they could have shown it and they would've seen Melanie. There is no way in hell and at the very least that could have establish reasonable doubt. Absolutely basically it discredits the prosecution story. Yes so it was another missed opportunity. I would love to talk to the defense attorneys and see why they didn't. They're much smarter than we are. I'm sure they would if I'm sure they thought of that. Speak for yourself very hard. Very hard to these are seasoned attorney. Tell me they didn't think of it. They must have just thought. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered. I don't know well maybe it would have been the you know that the exact reason she was able to hoisted tested it at their offices before doing it in the courtroom. Yeah I think this is a missed opportunity. Yeah for sure. Next time on direct appeal will testify or remain silent also did mount right the prosecutor and anonymous letter about bill's murder or is it from the real killer direct appeal hosted by Megan Saxon. Amy Schlossberg or producer. Is James Varga? The story was written by Megan sacks music and underscore by desert media recorded mixed edited by Justin Crow at JC studios special. Thanks to Alan Tuckerman. He's work was integral to this production. If you have a tip you can submit through our website or by emailing tips at direct appeal. Podcast DOT COM.

Bill Melanie Joe Teke Pena Georgia Melania Marcy Paulk investigator prosecutor don Don Zoo Steve Toronto New Jersey soccer Michael Baden Newark Natalie Holloway Virginia Beach Selene Urine Vander sloot George Lowery America George
Root beer party is back on

The big d zone

08:41 min | 1 year ago

Root beer party is back on

"Canoe just a prestige AOL's finally able to open up those all will be. Translated to another bottle that I was using Only, when ahead that peach cross for two so good. But other than that. I had to smack in open on BACCHANAL sing because it was a I needed a wrestler to open the date on bottle. Whatever we now only a few old able to open and one I kept for later. So I mean 'cause root beer for me celebrating the fact that I got second palace a brand new Teke Pal and. That You know what Dave? You know it's it's just does the used as a patient for me Guinness Palace on last week so All the time they knew that I couldn't open only the last few. And, I was like you know what? I'll give ready to leave on on the ninth and And then. Because unfortunately, when I get my unemployment I had to put that onto you uber because. Well I had to use some for food because I was really getting hungry for better food because all I have was how Many snacks and going GonNa fill me up because. Well. Some are just don't WanNa let go nasty grip I. Mean it happened cool off and on but then when the days get really warmer than than want to you know. It kind of like a t thought like that but. And Springfield boy that they're really suffering there. I mean I'm glad I'm not over there Today is in the in the hundreds again are. The feel temperatures in the hundreds again and It's ridiculous. I. I would not survive packing. F I even if I didn't go or Did the whole thing nine But. Other than that The root beer was both be for celebrating for when I got the apartment because I had moved in a long while the what better way to celebrate Ruben I wish I would have that epilepsy does champagne I couldn't find it because. A that Walmart was do and be I was so tired because I was forced to stay in our forced to walk all that all the big data on store. That I couldn't find the apple cider champagne you know the champagne tastes like epilogue tighter so I know I. Had I had we have them at the wedding and everything like that. So I know in a long time ago but. Nonetheless. It would have been perfect. Would applaud fight for the celebration I would've loved to have gone Ford Coordination? I would love to have some sort of coordination when I move in and. You know get some more rupiah gets more Go get some of that empathize champagne and You know celebrity. New. New Palace though. But as back on finally, got you know like I needed to less I, just totally totally needed to rest and Yeah out somehow finish podcast for when I can. Because right now, it's like I'm going back to the the clutch of the heat. On the ninth. I got one. Yeah. One more day what thank. God today the seven. Yeah I got one more day tomorrow. And then go back to that he than ungodly hour till. So. I'm not I'm not stunned pack I'M GONNA get bosses, but I'm not stunned pack on the same day. Now I gotta get more. Leaving getting up at a ungodly hour because I'm scared of the buck. So because some they get the. Unemployment Thin I. got to put that in Uber and I'm either getting a regular one or splurge alot bit and get the the comfortable one. 'cause I'm going to. All the way downtown and So. Anyway anyhow. Oh. I just. Trying to compromise my my sight. My sight, mind and You know right now is excited. Thank God. I guess this worried about the pack King and how to do that lightly because. I'm not taking a lot of stuff. I'll probably get a new TV because I don't. I. Don't know how to work the TV because it was donated. I guess I'll leave it in the apartment. And had the remote control on the far. Well do remote control, but don't even know how the cat to work. So. I like the way you work get. Why did that song undermine? Missy Elliott. USTA like missy Elliott annually but. Anyway. So. Yes Solely, on the last last few hours of me being here in Saint, Louis, area. China's wasn't sold. Did find the bus area I mean I didn't find the bus area outside the hotel but I looked into bus there at the bus that goes to the transit center. over here. Buddy airport that I took a bus. But I wanNA know what time the first bus leaves if I had to wind up doing dead in the morning because I do got bus tickets. And I will I will have to Login we had to leave. So early. that. You know. It's it's ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. I'll have to. Check and see what time the first bus leaves in the morning on. But I have to wait to call them tomorrow because of course, David Day everything close and I'll figure something out at the -mergency perspectives. Stranded but. Like like a hotel to. A. Notable through I don't know the bus stop I don't know where I duNno I duNno I dunno no no. No. Well, my hotel in order to work for the Bell Staff, the front death reservations you are required to know the buffs. Because there's not no only one one one person like myself who had to travel to the hotel on a bus no not everybody car to get a hotel. So. But anyway. Annual. A. I mean because if I had to go on the wild goose chase our have if I had gone while I'll have to leave. So Dag on only I don't have to leave about two o'clock in the morning. Like two three o'clock in the morning justify that's a good. We Marlene. And they no Internet there. No Internet for me to check in. They seriously. So. I. Don't know I I. I? have to figure something out but I'm hopefully the either by Yet it hopefully by tomorrow the unemployment will come in and then it'll be a it'll be a big cal soccer. Put it into. Uber. And we you know 'cause I got I. got a car then after coming on time lately. So hopefully, this still continue. Needed food I need food You know. Only thing has happened me as parents sleep if I don't eat though. All right. So the still continuing even hopefully I save half of the rupiahs are the. You know continue to celebration though. As a DJ. Keep drinking beer. Yellow the DOT com.

And Missy Elliott Guinness Palace Teke Pal AOL Dave New Palace Springfield China Walmart Ruben Saint soccer apple Ford David Day Marlene Bell Staff
Thu. 01/03 - Apple-ocalypse Now?

Techmeme Ride Home

19:31 min | 3 years ago

Thu. 01/03 - Apple-ocalypse Now?

"The. Welcome to the tech main ride home for Thursday, January third twenty nineteen I'm Brian McCullough today. Yes, apple lowers its guidance and the tech world freaks out. We learn about the company you can outsource your censorship. Friendly China content to there's a more durable e scooter coming and what to expect from CAS, which is definitely also coming. Here's what you missed today in the world of tech. Well, just as I hit publish on yesterday's episode. The news broke that Apple's shares were being halted pending news. And I'm sure you've heard by now the news was that apple was revising its earnings guidance for fiscal Q one twenty nineteen downwards. This is the first time that apple has had to revise its earnings estimates since two thousand two apple now expects eighty four billion dollars in revenue this quarter down from its estimated range of eighty nine to ninety three billion. So that's pretty big news right there full stop apple is usually super cautious about its guidance. So that it can reliably over perform its own estimates. But then in the actual statement about how it sees business going forward apple had to own up to the fact that it was straight up surprised itself by the weakness. It was. Being here to me is the key graph quote while we anticipated some challenges and key emerging markets. We did not forsee the magnitude of the economic deceleration, particularly in greater China. In fact, most of our revenue shortfall to our guidance and over one hundred percent of our year over year worldwide revenue decline occurred in greater China across iphone MAC, and I Pat and quote, okay? So let's start there. We have been talking about the evolving trade war between the US and China, and how it could have a significant blowback for tech companies. But the assumption all along was that this blowback would be in the form of probably supply chain disruptions. But Abba here is saying that it is seeing softness on the consumer side to put it. Bluntly, apple is having a hard time selling iphones in China and apple made a big bet on China as a key growth area. So that is a problem again here is Tim Cook's actual statement, quote low. Lower than anticipated iphone revenue primarily in greater China accounts for all of our revenue shortfall to our guidance and for much more than our entire year over year revenue decline, in fact, categories outside of iphone services, MAC, ipad, whereab-, home accessories. Combined to grow almost nineteen percent year over year. But then Tim had this next bit to say quote, while greater China and other emerging markets accounted for the vast majority of the year over year iphone revenue decline in some developed markets. Iphone upgrades, also were not as strong as we thought they would be and quote, so hidden in here is the suggestion that sales are sluggish not just in China. But in other or should I say some developed markets now in this statement and subsequent statements. Tim cook has mentioned that that I phone battery replacement program for older phones was probably a big reason. Why people didn't upgrade their? Ices like apple had hoped. They would now, of course, there has been a metric ton of hot takes on this as you can imagine. And a lot of the more sky is falling takes generally taken. This tech. Really the battery replacement program was popular enough to lead to a significant hit in phone sales. We knew that apple had reached peak smartphone. Of course, we knew apple would run up against the law of large numbers of actually. So maybe this battery replacement thing is just a convenient excuse for apple to us. Maybe it's also convenient at this point in time to use China and trade wars as a convenient excuse, but might also be clever. Obfuscation of the fact that people just generally don't feel the need to upgrade their phones as often anymore even four year old smartphones can still feel good enough. And there's that little thing of the increase in phone prices, recently, there's the little matter of carriers. No longer subs. Seducing the cost of an iphone purchase anymore. In other words, the skeptics are saying Apple's ability to grow iphone sales have finally hit a wall for all of the various other excuses that Tim cook might be trotting out the natural upgrade cycle for smartphones. Really is three to four years now, not one or two heck maybe all those concerns about the muddle product lineup and disappointing. I phoned ten our sales really have come home to roost in other words is this. The apple accolades that we knew had to come someday. Is it finally finally here now, no one even the biggest doom and gloom? Naysayers are saying that apple as a company is in trouble is about to go out of business is doomed anything like that. Even at this revised downward guidance. Apple would still be on track. I think to report their second biggest quarter of all time, but really just focusing on this being an apple concern troll story is sort of missing the forest for the trees here. Although there is an immediate impact. Just in the fact that apple. Which opened down nine percent. This morning has now been surpassed by alphabet in terms of market cap. Just months ago apple was the most valuable company in the world. The first trillion dollar market cap company as I'm writing this apple is now only the fourth largest tech company in the world behind Amazon Microsoft, and now alphabet, but more importantly at the time of this writing the entire stock market is down big time. And probably the reason for that is apple that's the biggest picture here. There's a reason the Wall Street people I follow on Twitter were busy clutching their pearls all night long. There's a reason prominent venture capitalist last night were urging any startups out there to close their funding rounds while they still can we're almost precisely ten years into this current bull market, which is a long time a long time historically between recessions by any historical measure, and this is a bull market that has one hundred percent been led by tech. In fact, it's been a market where tech became triumphant became master of the universe. We've been watching for months now as Teke swooned. And again, the old saw is that the leaders. A bull market are often the first signal the arrival of the bear. And here you have the biggest tech company in the world. The biggest business success story of the last twenty years the most prominent brand company stock what have you of the twenty first century, the company that stumbled upon the greatest business model and product maybe of all time consumer product, certainly the biggest money making machine we've maybe ever seen you basically suddenly got that company saying they might hit the wall. This is not good. And maybe it is just the Chinese market slowing. But that's not good either. Maybe it is trade concerns. But that's not good. Look nothing. I say on the show is investing advice, and I'm certainly not at all qualified to prognosticate on the stock market. Or the broader economy for all? I know by the time you hear these words, the Dow and NASDAQ and even apples stock will have roared back into the green, but recessions are inevitable over a long enough timeframe, and they don't usually come because of one big earth shattering event like Bear Stearns going under or something like that more often recessions, come as the result of a thousand little things death by a thousand cuts as it were. And sometimes recessions come just because we all collectively decide that recession is coming. It really is a case of believing it to be true can make it come true. Just from our narrow tech industry perspective. It is not good that apple the driver of so much of tech success for the modern era is looking a bit queasy, suddenly, but it's also not good for the overall global economy. If a prominent leader in the industry that is absolutely driven. The recent market cycle is reporting turbulence because its business model again, perhaps the greatest business we've ever seen developed pudding supercomputers in every person's pocket and earning fat merges to do. So it's not good news. If that very business and business model that has been ridden to such success for fifteen years now is suddenly looking week. I've spoken recently about tech companies having to learn new tricks. It's looking like apple is going to have to learn a new trick beyond just selling more I phones, and it's going to have to learn it pretty pretty quickly. Once again today, we're sponsored by mealtime, which is going to help you stick to your New Year's dieting resolution, but in a super and super easy way meal lime is a simple healthy and delicious free way to cook it home, you're busy week nights are about to be so much easier because mealtime has made meal planning grocery shopping and cooking as simple as getting takeout. All you have to do is download the meal line app. Plan your meals for the entire week in minutes with over two hundred personalized options. Eat exactly how you want to eat then grocery shop once per week with an organized done for you shopping list. Then you cook healthy delicious meals in about thirty minutes using the app as a guide with instructions ingredients photos, everything you need eat better. Take back your stressful evenings and feel great about yourself. Join over a million others for free by downloading the meal. I'm apt today. That's M E A L E. For your Android or I phone or check them out on the web meal. Lime dot com meal lime take the thinking out of what's for dinner. We know that Google has flirted with the idea of creating a censorship friendly search product for the Chinese market it's unclear if that will ever see the light of day, but it is clear now that that is very much something that Google has been cooking up internally Google tends to do things it self in house. But it turns out if you want to crack the Chinese market without running foul of the Chinese government's censorship regime. There's actually a company that you can outsource that. To the New York Times has a profile of Beijing based beyond soft which runs what the times calls censorship factories for media companies eager to please China's sensors beyond soft has more than four thousand staff whose only job is to monitor online media Yang Zhao a beyond. Soft executive probably told the times that beyond soft likes to think of itself as the Foxconn of the data industry, quote beyond soft software trawls through web pages and marks potentially offensive words in. Different colors. If a page is full of color coded words. It usually requires a closer, look, according to the executives if there are only one or two it's pretty safe to let it pass according to beyond sauce website. It's content monitoring service called rainbow shield has compiled over one hundred thousand basic sensitive words, and over three million derivative words politically sensitive words, make up one third of the total. Followed by words related to pornography, prostitution gambling and knives. And quote, interestingly the times article says that obviously beyond soft is investigating ways that it can use to take over this sort of work. They're investing in machine learning models and the like, but at least so far humans just are better. At this sort of thing than the bots are quoting Lee Shanxi one of the professional sensors, quote, the machines are intelligent, but they aren't as clever as human brains. They miss a lot of things when reviewing content and quote, so. Note to self at least for the foreseeable future. If you want a robot proof career consider going into the internet censorship industry. We spoke recently about how one of the big problems for the east gooder players is durability the whole business model of e scooters as a service is predicated on getting enough rides out of a given scooter to earn back the purchase price and hopefully clear a margin. But the problem is the scooters thus far have been breaking down sooner than people would like if someone could simply come along and engineer a more durable longer lasting scooter. That is where the fat profits in Eam ability will come from well, kicking off the consumer electronic show today. Segue nine but unveiled a new e scooter called the model max model max was designed taking into consideration. Complex shared usage scenarios consumer over USA vehicles operation models and maintenance costs segue wrote in a press release at the same time segue nine, but is also more open to accept the customize needs of various operator. To meet the different needs of users and customers in each market, and quote, no further details about the new specifications of this new scooter were released, but the image that was released along with the announcement shows a scooter with a bit more heft to it. Looks more like an off road style machine than a light and tiny sidewalk. Toy more specifics are supposedly coming next week. Oh, and segue. Also unveiled what it's calling the Lumo delivery bought an autonomous delivery vehicle. It looks like a rolling filing cabinet with actual drawers that slide open when unlocked via smart device. So maybe this is how I'm finally going to get my autonomous burrito. Delivery. Having mentioned that. Yes. CAS kicks off properly next week at runs from January eighth through January eleventh, if you've never been you should definitely go to at least once in your life. It's quite a trip. The first time, though, repeated attendance somehow morph that into quite an ordeal sooner than you would think the golden era for was right after the iphone and ipad debuted those years when mobile just exploded into a dizzying array of consumer devices when you would go to CS you felt like you were seeing not just entire product lines. But entire industries debuting right before your eyes. I can remember getting my first hands on with consumer and commercial grade drones at CAS. There's also a lot of crap to God the amount of three D TV's. I saw remember with three D TV's were supposed to be a thing. Someone's probably still gonna try to flag those this year. I guess anyway at tech crunch Brian heater has a useful and timely rundown of what he expects to be the big trends at CAS this year as we've said before the big narrative of the year for tech is going to be the rollout of five G. So expect a lot of five G ready handsets today byu next week as well as hardware companies rolling out a lot of five G components, but heater says think beyond just mobile the whole promise of five G is that the whole world is going to be connected. The internet will suddenly just be everywhere in the ether. So heater says to expect everything from enterprise products that take advantage of five G to health monitoring wearables to and this has been the case for a while now, but expect a continued cascade of smart home devices. But now not just tethered to wifi alone. Another promise of the roll out of five G is what it can do for autonomous vehicles for smart cars. I automobile tech didn't use to have a big presence at CAS. But that has changed rapidly over the last couple years so next week expect demos of more EV and self-driving technologies as well as augmented reality like heads up displays and whatnot. Maybe even more of those delivery robots. We were just talking about. Speaking of the VR push has waned just a bit from what it was only a few years ago. But there are still plenty of people plugging away in the space, quote, A R's immediate future is two pronged heater says most developers are focused on leveraging existing devices like smartphones and tablets using a kit and a our core. But a number of headset slash glasses have already begun to pop up on the periphery, expect plenty of these to be on display at the show as startups attempt to convince us that it's an experience we need to bring directly to our collective faces and quote, and as for the TV's the wall after wall display after display of TV's quoting heater again another year. Another K this year eight k will very much be the thing. It's like four K, but with more ks is it a gimmick? Kind of is it cool. Sure. Mostly. However, it's the latest reason to get you to upgrade that three year old TV that costs you three months rent companies have been showing off eight K sets for half decade. Now, this is the year manufacturers will really get serious about the technology, though, the same probably can't be said for content and quote. Yes. This is how we'll see it. Eight K three d televisions? Anybody? You know that old saw about how long into the new year. You're still writing the old year on your checks. Well, I am legit having that sort of an issue right now the title of this word document that I'm reading from is Thursday's January third twenty eighteen. That's how I wrote it this morning because I wasn't thinking. Now, I'm pretty sure that I said Thursday January third twenty nineteen at the beginning of this show. I feel like it's inevitable that one of these days I'm gonna slip and say twenty eighteen so get ready eagle eared listeners to let me have it on Twitter whenever I do. Screw up talk to you tomorrow. Every friday. I do the long reads suggestions, but you know, what is the perfect venue for actually consuming. The long reads, I suggest it's flip board flip board curates the world stories so you can be smarter in your work life and play. Choose from thousands of topics to personalize flip board and get the latest stories from the best publishers and experts delivered to you twenty four seven, you know, flip forward. I used flip board every day to put the show together. If you're not already using flip board, then it's time to get educated with so much content whizzing around out there. There's only one storytelling platform that helps you keep calm and stay informed and inspired flip board used by millions of people. Everyday flip board is how people move themselves and the world forward. Get started now at flip board dot com and be ready to sit back and enjoy the weekend. Long reads, the next time I throw them at you.

Apple China Tim Cook Twitter US Brian McCullough Pat New York Times Abba Google Chinese government Teke prostitution
Episode 0b1111 The 5g Of Weather Prediction

You Did What Now?

20:40 min | 1 year ago

Episode 0b1111 The 5g Of Weather Prediction

"We don't know who struck first US then but we know that it was a that scores. The Sky Ten fingers ten toes. That's all that used to not now now Only seconds old the exact time. 'cause my dad was already known. Welcome to you. Did what now a podcast. Where discuss stories and science and tech that make us ask exactly that everyone thinks for listening on your host? Stephanie Educator in science AFICIONADO MICO programmer. Teke low Stephanie. Happy Holidays we're getting towards towards the end of the year now. It's almost there. Are you ready at all. Have you started buying presents supposed to buy presents. I've two young girls Charles just everything frozen tow just frozen to presents you everything just yet. Click Click Click done. Yeah pretty much. That's pretty much what she wants to. So that an end those L. Oh l. dolls which We talk about you know plastic and environment stuff. Sometimes you have you ever opened one of those. Ll Dolls it. Takes about forty five minutes to open in one so yeah she got my oldest daughter. Got About Ten of them last Christmas and it pretty much it was a it was a good five hours. The plastic yes. Yes 'cause everything is usually wrapped to be the whole surprise thing now she's graduated from. Ll Dolls and and she wants a chromebook of course And she's eight so I don't know how I feel about that but it's all about the tech. Yeah I wanted to mention I haven't. It's been a couple of weeks now but I I actually had a third plant base Burger Product at actually a diva busters. which is arcade slash bar slash restaurant? I guess yeah we have professors. They serve something called light life. which is you know the same sort of thing I had a philly cheese? Steak was made with you know the Vegan Vegan Vegetarian of course but the cheese on it I it was pretty good. I enjoyed it. I would order it again if I went. There wasn't too bad now pretty good. I mean Greece and cheese. And if you mix it all get enough he could use some more grease because cheese steaks are basically sleet just read soaked Greece with some meat but it was pretty good. I enjoyed it. Well maybe they'll make them better and better all I'll give it another shot at some point. Yeah Yeah so so this week so our story. This week will be about a water. Did you know what are mixed noise. I guess at a waterfall. You can hear an no. He's just like standing water you can you can hear standing. Water admits a frequency I've never heard the sound of standing water before that now. I guess I'll try it. No I don't think you don't think you could hear without up to the Without the right tools. But this is how they measure things like humidity satellites that can read the frequency of water vapor in the in the atmosphere on the ground floating around how they sort of they do a lot of weather forecasting with the stuff. Okay so it's making a noise. It's the molecules nothing into each other. Her what I mean I think exactly what makes the noise. Yeah but it's it's on a molecular level. They're they're moving around. In a certain way in water you know. H Zero bonded onto together makes a certain frequency that you could measure okay so a lot of things make frequencies. I'm sure you've heard of us. We just mentioned chromebooks There's is this Wi fi in his radio waves and there's this new five G. thing you heard about this new five G. thing is he gonNA give us cancer. Who knows probably not? It's probably not GonNa give this cancer is going to mess with the water vapor though. Oh okay so what's it GonNa do to water vapor so every time either there's FDA I forget the administration of the FAA organizes bands of the radio. Am Is this Disease FM this center frequencies wife is this set of frequencies. He's the military uses this or satellite. So you know. There's a lot of frequencies of waves out there and you don't really want them bumping up against each other you don't want sure you know. AM station to suddenly. Come over your Wi fi when you're trying to connect your phone so they try to keep these things and REO freesias a airplanes. That are talking to each other although or anything else. So what are vapor has its own frequency and five G. is very close to that frequency. Interesting so okay. Okay when you turn on your five g Wi fi. What's that GonNa do to the water? Vapor is it GonNa make the molecules move faster or slower. What is this I may misspoke? It's not gonNA do anything to the water itself. It's GonNa do anything to the measurement. So Lee satellites weather satellites are trying to measure the water taper signal and all of a sudden. They're picking up. You know you playing candy crush on your phone okay. So we're not going to be able to predict the weather anymore. Yeah all they could definitely throw it off. So the issue here is. Water Vapor victim is at twenty three point eight gigahertz frequency. And it's a weak signal in general by I five G. Signals are very close to that And the the noise buffer that they've agreed on is not good So I think they a study by NASA and the U S National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration than five base stations. They really should transmit with annoys buffer for fifty two point four decibel watts meaning. That's the if they were fifty two point four desperate watts off of their measurement. They still wanted the water taper but the the recently just just now in September I believe are maybe more recently that they agreed on. Thirty three native thirty-three desperate watts and moving ended up to a little bit stricter thirty nine in a couple years in twenty twenty seven as because five. Jeez obviously not everywhere. Yes they wanted to give them a little leeway to get a building because you know all these these things are all about allowing the companies to do whatever they want to get their business going right. You don't want to get in the way of progress but but if it's going to have have some severe consequences like you know messing up with the weather being able to predict the weather. Then that is something they need to you you know. Think about before they just let it become prevalent everywhere. So where can you find five G. as of right now. I mean they're really ramping up. Pretty fast yes. I think you'd find it in New York now. I don't have a five G. phone so I'm not entirely sure it's not something. I've paid that much attention to yet. But they're advertising. You see people couldn't up. There was an article in a local paper here. A couple of towns over are talking about. Well what is this weird looking. I guess it looks weird. The Gee transmitters because what four g you know what your cell tower looks like the four G. Cell Towers are tall and they put the fake trees on and sometimes to make look Less I guess bad but The five ones are smaller. All are much. It's so instead of being miles to the next soured. How're it's going to be a smaller area and that's how it's really going to like they'll just be more of them? They'll be closer closer together so that you'll be able to connect to them in a more local area and that's part of the reason why people are anytime. This new technology people wonder if it's going to cause cancer and electron frequencies and all that stuff because there's more of them in their lower down in their close to US people get more concerned about five G. even though there's really no indication that that is the case but Well I mean I have friends who make a point of turning off their Wifi at night while everyone's sleeping so that they can like let everybody have a rest from these frequencies. Thank us that that that works because the whether or not you're interpreting the signals the waves. They're still going through your house. It's it's re those. Those waves are be breathed from the towers to your house. So that you get like the I guess you turn off your round or maybe the year round or is emitting waves. That's your phone talks to but like there's so many frequencies in your house that everything is. Is it all your neighbors Wi fi that you can pick up on is the broadcast. Yeah I love the name of my neighbors Wi fi is FBI surveillance this and then have another one next door. That's Kobe Boola so so no one wants to join the network but yeah Something that they have five Gene Korea. Isn't that the first said had it probably because one of L L G Korean C. I always picks up the big phone companies. One of them is Korean. I would just be interested in knowing wing. Okay so they have. This in. Korea has changed any of their weather predicting patterns. Nair get right. Yeah I mean I guess that would be the first place. This is tech is. It is five G. all over enquiry. I'm not sure about that whether I is initially runoff rolled out. I says All over replays because you know you have one boss reading in like a couple of streets in Now this is where I forget to try to remember what the capital is was the capital career. I'm when Google Google Guess See all right you know Seoul South Korea a couple blocks where the wired and maybe there's not that much war moreover burned a city any way to really go the readings it's more of when it's prevalent everywhere when it's like a blanket over the over the country I seen. I'd say Okay Sam who's WHO's going to be most concerned about this situation whether scientists of course nobody listens to these people anyway as we the year after year like. Hey this is bad. We should stop doing that. Stop the car bed stop. Stop burning those trees. Yeah Yeah we had and it's bad. So so here's another thing trying to warn US and they've been warning us about. They've been trying to petition. The government for for years now goes forward as his five G.. Stuff goes forward saying like. Hey we we really need to deregulate. Because you're going to mess with the weather satellites and the predictions and some of it just yet but like predictions like hurricane predictions. How fast they're gonNA come? And how big the like how the storm surge might be and things like that. Yeah I can see that being an issue for NASA if they're trying to plan Space launches or for for for flights I mean just flight patterns us have to have this information in order to operate So so yeah I could see like the airline lobby going to try and prevent five G. from coming here for you know everywhere because I could see that being an issue right exactly and who knows and this is just like we've done on it. I guess we'll find out as things go forwarded these you know the if if they don't bleed over so this is not. They're not actually broadcasting at that signal. So it's only if there's bleed over if if they're off and I'm not really versed well enough in the technology to say like this is common but there's enough of it that people seem concerned if a couple of five G. towers are are sloppy and bleeding over the frequencies and not restrained Yeah that could throw especially before a storm of the people have talked about people propose like. Oh maybe what we pass you on. Satellite passes over. We shut down five G.. But I I can't see that happening so I mean how's it going to change your life so when she is finally here like what what's going to be better. We'll five do I will start. I mean five years faster than Forte. Yeah this is a main thing here is the Internet of things idea. Where all your your your house's wired everything is going to connect so this will sort of give everything a little bit better connection? Yes and faster and you won't be bogged down by like your toaster telling you the toasted Bun when you're trying to stream frozen to or I don't have a problem with I. Can I can literally click on any movie and it'll stream automatically. I don't have to wait so I mean what's faster than instant. Well it'll get. I mean as more things get on the network. It'll bog down more. I mean maybe you're lower volume but but like I said as your toaster starting at your house now. You're oh you're locks are going to be in all your outlets. They're all there to start talking to each other and be more. Data and movies will get higher depth the more power the more power we can send back and forth and more information can stream faster the better things are a just look at the website if you try to load a website from today in like twelve two thousand five on my Internet explorer. It just wouldn't load because because we have faster computers faster connections. Everybody just builds the websites tease more data and they don't worry as much about trying to be efficient about it. I see. Yeah I used to take about two minutes load up a website when we first got a computer like probably nineteen ninety eight conine. They weren't even loaded. You're you're AOL your prodigy earthlink all those and they'd have like the AOL keywords and because they won't even be websites it'd be like these preloaded prefix that you didn't have to like connect to somewhere else because it was. It was faster that way. They well they did things where like we have back then they will do things like they could make the website not load the images until the Texas loaded because it would just take that much longer to images and they want you to be able to actually see a website. I now website just pop up videos at Ya. Well Yeah I mean I'm excited. I guess about having five G. Progress I think progress is good. Cancer is bad. So that's an issue. Then let's avoid it but I mean I don't know how I feel about the sweater whether I feel like it's kind of a minor issue to me but other people I think that they will. They will push to get five G. taken away. But I don't know why I felt like I don't think we're getting to the point where I'm just GonNa take it away. I mean this who's not whether scientists right. It's just a matter of working through a thorough figuring out how much these are going to bleed. And what sort of damage a could do we have a two I only really have like two major predictors as the European model and then the US model. We'll manage the signals and blow all sorts of weather data dirty weather. Which is interesting if you dig into it? But I don't necessarily I understand it. I feel like our government is pretty good about regulating technologies for the betterment of everyone right. I mean yeah. Sure or by the big Variety lay down the five G. over the the guy with the weather satellite site. Well Y you're not going to be able to tell. The story was going to be super bad or just bad. And you know that we have a hurricane hits nobody listens to them anyway and we we all die so yeah yeah yeah. I think the lobbyists are going to probably Decide this one I mean they. They agreed to a certain less stringent standard than the climate scientists would allow. But at least it's something it is like hey pay attention as and they're aware of an they they claim they're going to govern it but as gets really strong five G. really starts blanking on the thing and there's five G. Towers in the middle of nowhere or people. Oh haven't even like maintain them. I don't know what sort of being the one thing to blanket. The country and five G. is another to maintain those towers make sure they're not continually bleed over. WHO's driving out to the middle of nowhere to say? This is a seven towers of Kansas. Now we're not going to be able to see the tornado coming but well I mean what environmental effects are going to be if the signals are cross crossing with whatever signals the water is producing ocean. I know Wales have to communicate over very long distances. Is this going to interfere with that. All so I could see far. Mental is getting involved in this for those issues so far so far. There's no internet in the ocean. As far as I know I think that's you're right. No what about the dolphins with iphones. Yeah they gotta they gotta you know. They got to check their facebook STU you have to. I think they're more into Takasu. Because the songs okay sorry. I'm showing manages them here. I it's just tick tock is all full of Wilson's that's all it is. Yeah Yeah Yeah So. The the whales are on talk. Dolphins are on there we go. I am void both of those completely. I don't know the time I don't know what to talk is exactly uh-huh Wellstone while now so I guess we'll keep following this to see what's is going to happen with our water and I still WanNa know what water sounds like you you you know. You wonder if I can find Let's just measured by the satellites. So they're picking up the frequency. I don't even know if they're listening to it or just like audio editing. And it's like podcast editing. You just looking at the waves going up and down. You're not actually listening to the noise. It makes is going to be like a buzz. I guess cause says anti of a string or something. Yeah I just want to know if you amplify if you amplify it enough. What is what are some like and does that mean that we all are admitting sound? Because you know we are at least seventy percent of water so interesting well keep me updated on Nisa and let me know when the hurricanes coming hurt his cousin. Well I mean I could tell you all about my new candy crush level or whatever. The Games are playing today with this Barrio card game. I can tell you about the new Mary. Hart level a guy I can really by J. I don't know about the weather though. Don't ask me about the weather. Did you say merry Mareo Kurtz Year. There's a there's a mobile Mario Kart Gain Outta a few months ago. Is that how we say it. When we're in New York real in Texas is our? It's Mario as the doc did the twentieth reunion. Ge I'm Lee Sixty six percent Italian Ariza plummer I feel like I have a little leg up here. I don't know I'm not saying you're I never heard that before. So I'm sorry if I've been saying Mario Kart wrong my entire life and it's actually Mario Kart. I guess it's all Japanese anyway. Anyway right so who knows. Okay anyways Yeah let's look following this and see what happens with our five G.. I'm sure we'll all be on it in within in the next couple of years yet. Definitely I mean they're really pushing for it. You new phones are probably. I'm up for a new phone in April shore. It'll be a five G.. Phone it'll do it's five Jeevan Jeevan. Yeah Yeah so If you're out there and you are a weather nerd and you're listening to water. You're making a well. Sounds tick tock reach out to us. What L. PODCAST AT JIMA DOT COM? You can check out. Our website has all the episodes and show notes and other information. WWW SATIRE DOT com slash. You did what now and subscribe to the podcast. Have other people subscribe to the podcast. Give us a rating view US apple podcast. Google podcast spotify everywhere. Talk we talk. We're not dot. Should we get a docket on. Okay Yeah but you should share us with a friend Yes shares with a friend Listens of listen to the border. Vaber listen to our show will probably a little more interesting. I hope the hope so. Thanks for listening everyone I know.

US Cancer Wi Mario Kart Google NASA G. Towers Water New York L L G Korean Texas programmer Greece South Korea Charles FAA hurricane Teke G. Cell Towers
Huge announcement

The big d zone

13:43 min | 8 months ago

Huge announcement

"Right just as the prestigious say well I have just mentioned tennis making final arrangements for my trip to support My friends over at high street for the album reporting concert. There live album recording concert on the on. The live part. And i will be doing a special taping on there too. But i'll have to call this analysis or something else that i'm don't meeting with the The ceo but just the lord. Jesus tells me to come up with the name For this segment what you than baptist church in the name of the segment. It's the telling them you know while i'm supporting and whatever like dead so a pretty sure got plenty of time between now and sunday night to do so so other net. That'd be good. So i had to leave at ungodly hour on saturday and on monday. The ungodly of ours is on monday. When i return the saint louis though hold onto your hats when you hear this one. So i talked to the ada and i hate when the ada make me do some crazy one around to who've just to get my My reservation then. Though in order for me to get the return to another a different day with today is on monday. I have to call tomorrow. I can't call sake the thing call to reserve for the coming and going. I mean it's it's really annoying totally annoying and i had to call another another day just a book turn trip because on a different day i mean that's really that's really the blow my mind and boy. My friends are really getting the couple of friends really getting really angry at some people that are not helping my friends and even if my friends don't talk show any any friend still The country. That's what i consider a friend of mine. Your citizen big country though and if not you do about it but so the first day that i had to leave at an ungodly hour and get a better unguarded our s saturday and the bus pick take me to the greyhound station to From the apartment. That holding the second pallet. We'll get this pick me up from five sixteen in the morning. 'cause i told him i had to get there an hour. Talk a pick up my bus pattern. Be there on time and find my gate. Got the lead that seven thirty in the morning. So it's it's ridiculous. I really hate leaving at ungodly hour anywhere in one day own monday. When i return to come here. I signaling to the College monday when combat. Because i'll probably wind up getting sleep on the bus. Maybe maybe i could jump from dare to college maybe get a lift instead of the Still call the bus to the college. If i wanted to could today though yeah maybe do take the bus to go to college before returning home. Because i'm not gonna. I'm not gonna pack heavy thought. Just take my backpack. And that's about it but monday. I'll go to college picking my. Id set get my Get my ass portal set up with. I should've been doing. I was going to go today. I don't really wanna go today. I want to stay my lip money just in case it. There's any emergencies Happened between now. And when i go to springfield on monday so i don't really want to go to college right now or today. I should say so. I'm gonna hold that off until monday. When i returned so i'll go stop by the college and get my i d I don't know if the if i could get a faint. Well should cost facemask. Shouldn't cost them much. I hope that had the Saint louis community college logo thought where that amount That's in called them much. I hope but i'll see when i get down there on also. I don't know maybe. I could go to the store before returning to the teke palace because it'll be another thursday before i pay because i have to. Yeah i have to Do d- checking for my unemployment weekly request. The day that i'm at the hotel you know before. I go the continent i could still change. Reminding golden church that day. But i gotta leave a ungodly hour. And i'm planning on making some stops before returning to the second pal now. Hopefully monday will be a nice day to do that if i look at the weather in. Monday's both to be just tell the bus tomorrow that i'll be returning to my apartment though. I got a lot of work. That i could work around and from there but i really don't wanna do it today because i want to keep my eye lift money in there just in case just in case something goes haywire between saturday saturday. Getting to the hotel At the bus station and then Monday leaving the hotel to go back to the greyhound station before him. Back to the county seat a big country. So and i thought i gotta say about that. So let that fit. I do have a special announcement and you know. There's a lot of a lot of churches that works Work with compassion sunday. Now if coca passes sunday because their time to bring hope to a child who is orphaned and or placed on the foster care and child. The children are looking forward for him Flat home now. I may not be a father. And i may not be able to host italian my apartment but aren't the still help so i'm gonna be doing a very special podcast for the encouragement ministry church That's the my minutes. Did i was trying to start but You know i'm trying to do it in by site pieces. Because i'm still healing from all the grief and turmoil from everything but i can't do a special podcast that i can't do that. I can do so. It's going to be an april more. Like april twenty five. I returned a day of being courage to Be encouraged broadcast and it's going to be on compassion sunday. Well it's going to be online so I'll give you all the information and everything that's down though you could eat help adopted child or you share the information with someone who is unable to have children and what children and they can adopt children now on for me and my late wife. My late wife was able to have children but we have decided that It'll be just between me and her And everything like that. And i loved her on conditionally. But i'm pretty sure that there are those that want to have a child. and then ken spare their love and their time and fulfillment to Help the You know to help the child to be able to have a forever family so Be on the lookout for that april twenty. Four april twenty fifth will be the return of the big not on any home. I god so used to call you like cats. I don't do the big e. oh my god But be a g- courage be encouraged The radio minister from being courage. -ment ministy lifetime fast. Wow and after shot from yesterday but anyway boy don't mind me. I mean somebody trying to keep me on hold forever. I can't get that time back. Because i had to do one thing and i had to another thing. I'm trying to put together. And i told i got a call another day just to finish a drag on immigration on the nest at the total mess and plus i to deal with just the case if we get delayed on the roll coming back here springville so figure that oh man but anyway so When i go here like the big show if or One that plays the big show and the wwe wwf had four The big show if out on eight w and he's gonna be a commentator for the w dark. I believe for monday to have. They haven't they haven't to darker awa dog now so they have a dark on youtube. But there's only on you too and then. Aws on the cable station for dynamite. So that'll be very interesting. I'm hoping i'm looking to do some eight w pay-per-view prediction very soon. I wanna get back to that. During a w pay-per-view condition so i want to be like a full full-fledged prediction type show pretty busy countries getting their i. D country saw one step at a time. You know one step at a time. Just like don't get back in college and i'm gonna take one class at a time to have the best option and best way to succeed i to put too many classes and i can't even concentrate. Just what if. I have episode of depression. You know even on treated what if i have episode the depression and everything come back even after i get treated but You know so. That's why i wanna take one class. I could focus on one class. I didn't have that option even with financial aid. I'm forced forced to take what a minimal was to. The mass was four classes. And i had no choice. I couldn't take the classes. That's why i was only able to path one class. And then you know i'll tell the rest because too much too much. So but at least now mcconnell go to community college. It costs less money to get a degree. I have the option to take one class with semester. Although it might be very slow. But i had to pay though though. Yes so so. There's everything now. If you want to start your own steak. And i wished i was able to do the things stay Payment with the fifty county. Elsie that global dot com website but. I didn't know the advocate. Once you go to hotel and they Do search for the hotel and the city that you want to go to put the date that you want to go to the city for that. I wanna go to springfield on the twenty seven and then cooked up the bargain with all these hotel and you've got to find the right one. For example i'm staying at the brings day in springfield and i got a all the hotel. They'll go my god really. It's hard to concentrate on. I gotta find my hotel. But luckily when i was doing d- hilton landau. It was much easier to find. Thank god but I was fishing. That will keep paid for the springfield. One oh well. It's already done with danny way. I'm already paying for the room anyway. Not just to going check in. And that's about as tall and weigh any who any any any any any any any any who My name is plenty. Jay and i am slowly to become a covert survivor. Thank god this is double of the test. Awesome extremely best citizen all the net today if big country we are big d country stall.

Saint louis community college teke palace golden church baptist church springfield tennis coca springville ken depression youtube mcconnell Elsie hilton landau danny Jay
Meredith Aleigha Wells - Actor/Singer Who Is Dysfunctioning Just Fine in Her Wheelchair

Why I'll Never Make It - An Actor's Journey

46:34 min | 1 year ago

Meredith Aleigha Wells - Actor/Singer Who Is Dysfunctioning Just Fine in Her Wheelchair

"As with most episodes of this podcast, today's interview actually happened two months ago and I've been looking forward to finally sharing this conversation with Meredith eleo wells. She's an actor and singer who discovered her love and talent for dancing only after she started using a wheelchair. No one is guaranteed their health in the level of health that they have at this very moment, and I, think it's important to just focus on what we can do like every day and not get too far ahead of ourselves. Welcome to why I'll never make it featuring conversations with fellow creatives about the realities of life in the arts. I'm your host Patrick, Oliver, Jones, and to support the work of this podcast go to donate dot win me podcast dot com where you can choose between a one time donation or ongoing monthly giving. Well here we are at the end of October and as I mentioned today's interview actually took place back in August Meredith was in Cleveland at the time, which has pretty much been her base of operations so to speak since twenty seventeen so when I graduated from UMASS AMHERST I moved to Cleveland for about two years and I was dancing in a physically integrated company here in Cleveland and at the end of two years is when I can start jumping around a bit more in I definitely get a lot of work here. So a comeback pretty often but. Yeah. It was in Portland all last summer I went to Beijing so. Here and there everywhere these days, which is exciting. Bud like most of US covert has sidelined her performing career and brought on its own complications even right now in quarantine and all this stuff like my goal time is just to make sure that I'm taking care of myself in the best way that I can chew minimize my symptoms affecting my work. And then brings me to the reason for such a long gap between our initial interview and the release of this episode. It was actually a suggestion from Meredith to wait and have our conversation be a part of this Oughta know MIA awareness month. Now I know you're probably saying. was that. And to be honest. I hadn't heard of disorder. No Mia either until I met and talked with Meredith. It's basically an umbrella term for a range of medical conditions that affect our auto nommik functions in other words those bodily functions that happen automatically like a heartbeat or temperature control in today, Meredith will talk about her particular condition and how it has affected her as a performer. But one interesting thing happened as I was editing this episode and doing more research. Several years ago I was diagnosed with the particular heart irregularity and as it turns out that condition falls under disorder. No, MEA. I. Experienced what's called Cardiac syncope and vase available syncope. You had no idea when you started listening today that this was going to be a medical episode well. syncope is basically a fancy word for fainting. And the fainting that I've experienced is due to both cardiac or heart related issues as well as vase available, which basically means stressful or traumatic triggers that cause a sudden drop in heart rate and blood pressure leading to fainting. So I say all of this to say that Meredith, and I share disorder no MIA in common. However, her condition is very different from mine and comes with its own array of symptoms and we'll be going into more detail about that. Something else we share in common is actually common among most performers and attraction to an a desire to be on stage from a very young age. My first musical was fiddler on the roof back in the ninth grade for Meredith it was a different classic Broadway show. So I started theater in the seventh grade, I did a production of Annie in Middle School It was funny because the year before that our number auditioning for the musical, just having a horrendous audition. I mean I had never sung in front of people I was so nervous I'm pretty sure I saying the song like three times the tempo. And? The. Next year. I like came back. Then somehow like land believed in limited school musical and my mom was Kinda shocked I. Don't think she actually thought I was Gonna get it when I told her that no I got a call back and she's like what floor was like Anne Doug 'cause that was me as a little kid. Yeah. So I was in that production in middle school in Scott Bit by the bug in you know I. Quickly after that was like I want to do this for Living WanNa, do I wanNA perform for the rest of my life? Like that's what I WANNA do when I grow up in one. You know when you're a kid, they're like, oh, that's great. uh-huh. uh-huh and I think. Especially at that age people expect you to grow out of sight and I just. Grew out saying that. You're you're still that Anne just just looking for the next tomorrow. Yeah. Especially says. So then you specifically chose a college with theater and that kind of training in mind. So I decided you know when it came that time in high school I was going to pursue college degree and ended up deciding on Umass amherst the University of Massachusetts. Amherst actually has a long line of notable graduates from the world of sports. There's Julius Irving, the hall of Fame Basketball, player known as Dr, J. With The Philadelphia Seventy sixers and from the world of entertainment. The list of graduates includes Michael Haley famed producer of the HBO Mini Series Angels In America. and. There's also singer Natalie Cole and actor Richard Gere. So Meredith majored in theater and was following in the footsteps of talented individuals. But as so often happens once we start planning and looking forward to the future life has other ideas I started school and about a month into freshman year of college. So you know I'm doing it for real really going for it, and then month into pursuing the degree. I just start getting super busy all the time in lightheaded and nearly passing out in I just didn't know what was wrong. You know other things started cropping up. just they just of issues and things like Bat and It was a really scary time before I had a diagnosis didn't know what was wrong. I didn't know what the path ahead was GONNA be in a lot of questioning whether or not I was going to be able to pursue this palace. and. Around right before my Sophomore Year of college. I. Started using a wheelchair and around that same time, I got my diagnosis of pots which dancer posture or the static Teke Cardia Syndrome. Very, Long. Had, lots of practice saying at this point us that's good and. It's a form of discipline, oh mia or on onomic dysfunction. So essentially, everything that's affected by onomic nervous system that you don't think about can be affected. Now, there are about fifteen different types of disorder. No Mia mine the most common whereas Meredith's condition affects about one to three million people worldwide. So what exactly is pot? Here's Mayo Clinic Physician Philip Fisher to explain it a little more. For patients, pods is feeling tired not having much energy not being able to live a normal life for physicians. It's pots, fealty s posture or the static Teke Cardia Syndrome that cardia means fast heart. One of the signs of this condition is when somebody changes their posture position from lying down to standing up the heartbeat successively fast that's the posture or the static tech Cardia. The S of pots is the syndrome. It's the collection of symptoms including dizziness headache fatigue tummy upset. That gets people down. So parts is a condition that makes people feel tired makes them feel rundown often dizzy and very uncomfortable with headaches cummings. Anybody can be affected, but there seem to be two kinds. There's the adult kind of pots which affects mostly women between ages thirty and age fifty. And then what I see as a pediatrician and affects teenagers majority are girls, but it can be girls or boys, and they're what parents would thinker the late deal children high-achieving hardworking thriving in life, and then they get sick but instead of bouncing back it than it tips their involuntary nervous system out of balance and they're left tired and rundown their blood flow is disturbed so they can't get the blood going to the right place at the right time. So they stand up in feel dizzy they can't move their food through their intestines well, and they feel rundown and uncomfortable. As Dr Fisher mentioned pots is a syndrome covering a whole host of symptoms that can be different for each individual. Yeah Yeah so heart rate blood pressure breathing your digestive system even simpler things like your pupils dilating seem so silly. But you know my friends lowest joke about how you know i. go outside I just like kids just like Bella without her glasses be seconds. Oh my goodness. So freshman year when you start to have these symptoms, don't really know what it is, but it isn't until your sophomore year that you actually get the diagnosis specifically. I got the diagnosis right for my sophomore year that it was good to have clarity as to what was happening decided no may there's also different prognosis is depending on what the cause of your hots is and because it's a syndrome and I don't know the cause of my plots still to this day. So I don't really know what the prognosis is. And because of that, I was very nervous to get into or continue the path of performing. I wasn't sure if I was physically going to be capable doing that and I tried really hard right after my diagnosis to. Really get into things where my disability didn't affected as much at least like it felt that way you know being the costume shop more I was thinking directing classes. I was really trying to find a Sassa theatre where like what I looked like in my my type and all that kind of stuff just didn't matter. But I felt like the more I went in that direction, the more I sell called to perform and I kind of just had to make a decision at that point to be like I. Don't know how I'm going to do this. But I know that if I don't do this, I'm going to be very unhappy to the rest of my life in GonNa wonder what if so? I just have to like I I'd I there wasn't a doubt in my mind like this is what I have to do. This is what I want to do and I really just can't let other people's expectations of what I can can can't do it. This disability stopped me doing that it's Just listening to everyone else and I'd be really unhappy but I would assume that it was at least a joint effort as far as with your doctors, obviously parents and that kind of supportive group to figure out how this can happen. With my doctor way working on managing the symptoms. So every contract I have is always important and I feel like as time has gone on Scott Better and better thankfully, I'm as far as management goes the. Still. ENCYC- still chronically ill it's clinic it's not going away. You know my parents were very supportive. I. Think you know they were nervous in the way that I was nervous but I think when I made that decision, I have the confidence behind i. think that they kind of followed suit So I really lucky to have that can support them at that time. Obviously, you can look back on it now but at that time, what did that future look like what kind of roles did you think you could do? How far did you think you could go in performing any when I say I didn't know how like there was no. I had no frame of reference really. And around the same time as when the first person wheelchair was on Broadway. So that was the first time I was really seeing. Okay this. Is Possible. But you know also are disabilities like me in alleys, jerkers, Rindt and So you know is really hard for me to say far thousand. Go I think at that point I was still in an educational setting. So I was really just focused on doing the best I could in the educational setting and you know crossing that bridge when we got there like everything. Especially, pre diagnosis was just one step at a time in one. Just really having to let it in a moment and really having to focus on what you can do each and every day because you don't know one is guaranteed their health in the level and the. Of Health they have at this very moment and. the quality of life that they have tomorrow or next week or a year from now. So I, think it's important to just lay focus on what we can do like every day and not. Get too far ahead of ourselves as far as what we want to accomplish him where we think our careers can go because every time I think my career is going in one direction I just like totally get hit with a detour. Experience? I was a theater major to begin with but. After becoming disabled I ended up I mean, it's not because I because of my disability or like getting sick but I had always musical theater up until that point I don't know really really why decided to do theater and not musical theater. But. I realized that my my one true was musical theater whether it's singing dancing and acting together separately like I really enjoyed those three art forms and how they can. Sign Meredith started out with a general education in theater, but eventually decided to do an individualized concentration in musical theater. She was grateful though for the broad range of subjects she learned. The degree in theater felt safer in a way because it was you know well rounded you're learning about costume design, scenic design, their options in I feel procession in a lot of things in theater now, which is great. I'm really grateful for those first two years in the program but I'm glad that I decided to take a more focused approach my last two years in school because I think it really paid off I mean it's so important that not only in our general life, we need to be well rounded but specifically within theater to know what this department's doing that department's doing because we are just one of many cogs on wheel, you know making the whole thing run. I think. It's good to be well rounded in that way. If nothing else now as someone who mostly just performs writes just having an appreciation and understanding of all the work that's going into it I think definitely is such a good thing to have the performer. One of the greatest things about the performing arts is that it allows us to share stories and experiences with an audience in her senior year Maribeth brought together all of the theatrical training and skill. She learned to write her own one woman show called dysfunctioning just fine. So the show is about my diagnosis journey and my in the parallel storyline of my first clear relationship. So when I was writing I, took into consideration the fact that I am the performer and I didn't write anything into the show that I couldn't physically do, and also it's a one woman show. So the whole time on stage and at first I had an intermission. and. Then one of my professors after seeing the premiere is like GonNa, get rid of that engine mission like it's just it takes people out of it in such a short show. Why do you have intermissions like because I basically can't do the whole thing on my own because it's just nonstop for a little over an hour. And so we ended up writing in. It's an intermission for me but not the audience basically like me. A little bit of a break about Mitch. And I'm curious. I mean obviously these are these are two big issues in your life when your illness and then you have this first relationship what gave you the idea to put them both in the same show. So the story begins and it was funny because my adviser on the peace at the time was like is this real life or did you just make this up for dramatic effect referring to the line at the very beginning of the show where I say the first day I started pointing to symptoms of the illness is the first day we started dating, which is true. And so that kind of set itself up for those parallel stories to be told. And that relationship. I had a lot of support from that person as. This was all going on and it Kinda you know I had someone to help me navigate during that time and I really wanted to discuss the intersection of queer disabled identities in. So I thought not just focusing on the diagnosis, but also focusing on the relationship that was happening throughout that diagnosis would be a good way to kind of bring that to light. It's two sides of this personal journey that you were going on. Yeah. So we did the show for the first time. The premier was in October for dishonesty awareness month back in two thousand sixteen and it did really well we sold out all three nights before we even open. So that was really exciting and then we ended up doing a remount with the new edits. When we found out, we were going to New York City at a different theater. On campus the next semester in than we did a small school tour. Did it in a few places and it got into a festival called the my true colors festival in New York City which was part of the New York City Pride Festival is a clear festival since you touched on it briefly I'm curious. Since. That first queer relationship that you had in college. How has that journey been for you than? Iran parallel to your initial diagnosis and your health journey. But since then in a more general sense has your sexuality in something that you've been able to embrace more as the years have gone on. Yeah, I, think that something that was really nice crowd dysfunctioning just fine. Especially being the very first professional gig that I ever did was the fact that it told my story as disabled person in also told my story as a queer person in a really. Kind of just put it out there that I'm clear and a disabled in that something that people know about me. Going into my whole career, which I think is good going into it from a really. Good place and like living my truth. Yeah, and I think I've definitely. ACCEPTED DOT and embraced it In, warm each day as time goes on. Through the creation of one woman show meredith was able to process and explore this personal and emotional discovery as well as confront the realities she would face as a performer. As a disabled artists. Being. Realistic. Gigs are not always like. Coming my way you know it's it's it's definitely it's it's a waiting game sometimes and not everyone is super open to the idea always in That just is what it is not to say that deseo people can't be successful and do a lot of work You know there's definitely lots of great disabled talent out there now doing. A lot of cool. Thanks. For me something that became really apparent is. In my career is that. During those tines. I need to be able to have control over my own career in something that's helped me feel like I have control over my career is being able to create my own opportunities and so dysfunction just fine came out of a place where I I had decided I'm going to pursue this path. I had made that decision. But not everyone was like you know on the train yet right and so. I I struggled a little bit in college right after became a wheelchair user not to say, all my professors were like this. I had wonderful wonderful professors but. There definitely was an interest in me in my work when I first started school ask started getting sicker. I noticed it Kinda starting to dropbox and Dysfunction just spine really came from a place of not being cast in being frustrated and being like well, if no one's GonNa cast me I'm GonNa cast me I'm GonNa to make this show and I'm GonNa make it happen. Each production of dysfunctioning just fine was well received and with each performance her confidence grew in the show got better that by the time she got to New York, for the my true colors festival, she received the Purple Skies Playwright Award for her writing, which is remarkable considering she's fresh out of college was barely beginning her professional career and so the first month out of graduation was all day everyday wearing three different hats and that production as the writer, the performer and one of the Co producers of that and just working non-stop every day. And then we performed that in New York and then three days later, luke to. Ohio. It was just it was really post graduation. The month after graduation was really a very whirlwind kind of time in my life merit of the senior year in college not only led to the creation of dysfunctioning just fine. But was also where she discovered a dance company that would provide a pivotal moment for her as an artist, and specifically as a dancer I was actually doing research on the presence of disability in dance. In College and through that research had found dancing wheels and during my winter break my senior year I flew to. In addition. I got the job on the spot and I came back second semester already had a job in hands and that was a really nice. Feeling. It was back in nineteen eighty that Mary Very Fletcher founded the. DANCING WHEELS COMPANY IN CLEVELAND. The dancing wheels company is a professional physically integrated dance company. So it's comprised of dancers with and without disabilities that are all training together and perform together. Mary was born with Spina Bifida and went on to become the first professional wheelchair dancer. In the US through her company, she wanted to offer others with disabilities and equal access to the world of dance while we look at. How they've trained in the past they've had training many of them come from colleges and so. They're placed according to their experience level. So they could be an apprentice or they could be a full-fledged company member or perhaps a student, and so then they need the finer training of the technique in ballet and modern, and that's what they do. They train every single day Monday through Friday. Basically being in that job at I was really difficult. My body was not used to dancing four and a half hours a day Monday through Friday and you know touring as much as I was. We have fifty to seventy performances a year worldwide. So they're learning choreography brand new choreography, or restaged coffee every day. Integrating all different types of abilities but I think it's important to note that wheelchair users were not bound to our chair like our chairs are a former of freedom and the company in itself in physically integrated dance as an art form. I should say really kind of exemplifies that and how it can be used for all sorts of different purposes and creative ways. Society often disabled people through architectural barriers and so you know as the Ada the Americans with Disabilities Act came about. We started to eliminate some of those barriers both the architectural and stereotypical views so that opened. The Desam of equality. Starting off with a really physically demanding job of being in a dance company. That really Kinda set me up for success in that was told me. You know we're just talking about detours that was such a detour I never expected to. Pursue dance not way like I. Always just Kinda considered myself a mover and I. Becoming, more of a dancer really something that came after becoming a wheelchair user, which I think is really interesting in not. Such a combat. And you, yourself sometimes seen will chair in sometimes stone is that correct just depends on where you're at I assume your health goes up and down in that respect. So my health in my symptoms vary day to day I can walk for short periods of time. But if I go, you know out to the grocery store to go clothing shopping when that is safe to DC though helmets. Generally. Win them out of the House I. Use my wheelchair for really quick on something or something where mostly going to be sitting like going to a restaurant and close by I will have to walk there anything I pretty much always use my wheelchair for me just because at my worst I can perform in my wheelchair and I can't always perform standing. So it's just something that's more consistent and easier to manage before you got your diagnosis than were there times? Where did you ever fall collapse onstage with? Luckily knock on Wood I. It's only happened like during rehearsal it's never had happened during a show. But I was collapsing a watch and. Using a wheelchair was kind of nodar of safety in the sense that You know sprawling risking concussions all the time Also something that comes with my pots is just chronic fatigue and I. Am able to conserve my energy using a wheelchair in a way that I know other treatment has really allowed me to. So. It's pretty much. The only thing that I've been able to find dot has helped me still be able to perform. You'd mentioned about you know not everyone was on the same journey, the same supportive journey that you're on and I assume that convincing casting and producers those type of people of of what you could do on stage was was a hurdle for you at times. I think come something that I loved about doing the physically integrated dance thing before I really. started. Focusing. On musical feeder more of the time. I still was during musical theater when I worked for dancing wheels I do like little gigs here there. I'd have rehearsals during the day for dancing meals rehearsal for a musical at night it was. This kind of fun being able to do it all. You know you definitely for yourself out if you do too long like that but after I did a lot of those gigs with them. It was on my resume started including more dance stuff on my resume and I think one of the hardest things auditioning for musicals in a wheelchair is that. Most people have this idea that people in wheelchairs can't dance. So as lovely as I might sing auditions, there's still that notion like Oh will how is she going to do the dancing and they think that maybe only going for a lead, I wouldn't take ensemble role because I can't dance quote unquote or something like that and Really, the thing that helped me the most was just when I did get cast in shows just working hard and you know Kinda, proving that people in wheelchairs can dance and just doing the best that I can't count couch said in the educational setting you know. Taking every GIG ONE GIG at a time and just doing the best you can that Gig because you know when it comes to the next one, you've kind of start to prove yourself in Know Start proved myself in Cleveland that like Oh like yeah, she's done the show she's worked at this theater like well, if she can. She obviously can do something if she's getting cassidy stance heavy shows like let's let's give her a dance She's got like in. So it's nice that I think my work has been able to speak for itself as opposed to knee having to advocate so hard for myself and I would assume that. Are There Times than that? You have to work with the choreographer and say, this is what I can do. This is where I would need to do this. Instead of that how does that really work? So usually how I go about it. You know just right off the bat in the audition is that win a are giving the combination I just translating it to what works in the wheelchair and I've gotten a pretty extensive vocabulary And gotten a lot of practice doing that. So I've gotten a lot quicker at doing that in. Most the time In figure out something in that dance call. So That's when I don't WanNa be bothering the CRIAG refer to too much in the dance got a lot of people see things like that but once I'm in show. I will do that as much as I can but then when I have a question about something. I know go to the choreographer asks something like you want me to translate this. You know you want it to be my arm doing it or do you want me to do? What they're doing with their legs with my arm or something like that and just so I wanna make sure that when I am translating. Choreography I'm not taking away from the choreographers intentions. And usually I have a pretty good relationship with choreographers in the sense that if they don't like something day, see like you know I have a very open line of communication I always encourage them like you know I can change it just let me know and if I have questions I'll definitely come to you so that we make sure that your vision is getting across even in this translated version. has there been any any pushback about you being in a wheelchair or being cast in a particular show. Experiences Kinda just been in our dance caller some. A lot of staring a lot of people come. Came like what's this girl GonNa do like in Bay just have no idea in manual once I start moving in groups and they're like, okay like that's what she's GonNa do and I think it's just one of those things like people just don't really get. When I do until they see me do it. Singing exactly the same acting exactly the same except them sitting I think the dancing part is the part is that's the most different in the most challenging the part where people have the most hesitation. Yeah I think it's just one of those things like we've been saying how? The work speaks for itself in I. Don't I think maybe at first people are skeptical maybe but I think once. Doing it and doing it with everyone in blending in you know in the non sample like, okay anyone could do this on the I. requested that. One of the most visible examples of performers in wheelchairs making it in this business comes from allie stroke or. After graduating from nyu's Tisch, school of the arts, Alley competed in the glee project and got second place giving her the chance to have a guest starring role on Fox's glee, which already featured a person in a wheelchair as one of the main characters of that show. A few years later she made her Broadway debut and also made history as the first actress in a wheelchair to appear on Broadway stage in-depth west of. Revival of Spring Awakening, and then in twenty nineteen, she reached new heights as the first actor in a wheelchair to be both nominated for and win a Tony Award. That was for her performance as evo any in the revival of Oklahoma. This award. Is for every kid who is watching tonight who has a disability who has a limitation or a challenge who has been waiting to see themselves represented in this arena you are. Yeah I think that Alley stroker's is a great example and it's so I'm so ecstatic that she has gotten the visibility She has I think that it's really good to see authentic representation on stage and I think she really is a trailblazer in the. Disabled. Performing. Community and It's funny that you brought up Glee because that to me is a not. So great example it's it's good in the sense that there is someone in a wheelchair in acquire in that school but. What makes it not as great representation in is, is the fact that dot individual isn't actually disabled realize. Whereas you could have given a person's disability in opportunity you right there instead we give it to someone. Who is able bodied or disabled, and that's something that's really rampant and the performing arts. Community. I. I was reading the other day I. Think it's Low. Number I WANNA say two percents of roles like screen or something are disable. In Ninety five percent of them are played by able bodied actors. The comprehensive studies she's referring to was commissioned by the Ruderman family foundation and examined the frequency of actors with disabilities in the top ten TV shows of the two, thousand, fifteen and sixteen television season. In total, it looked at thirty one shows across streaming platforms, cable and broadcast networks and determined that only four actors with disabilities were cast amounting to less than two percent of all actors on the screen. J. Ruderman President of the foundation says quote by systematically casting. Actors portraying characters with disabilities Hollywood is hurting the inclusion of people with disabilities in our country yes. So that definitely is a challenge. In the sense stat proving that having an authentic representation on stage is more valuable than having. An able bodied person play a disability. I think that's not a big thing in my work. I feel is just You. Know just showing got this is an option. I think when people start realizing that there are tons of detail performers out there with you. Just you just gotta go looking a little bit and you know casting directors who like well, we could look forever for a disabled actor or we could just take someone who's good for the role who? was more easily accessible to us i. think is kind of a cop out in my opinion. My work is a good mix of roles. That were originally written for people with disabilities and. A mix of roles that are specifically disabled people and They want disabled actors if possible. I think where I am right now and getting a lot of roles in Cleveland and. Sometimes. It's like, oh, we need a person with a disability like how about that girl meredith like? Like people know me they know be as an actor in wheelchairs like not to too many of us in a smaller city like where I'm at right now. So you know sometimes it's a matter. People up see my work in the past and getting called to do something it's good to. Be Able to get your dorm not way to. Merida's frustration comes out not only as a performer and with some casting decisions, but also in her day to day life. As the. With Disabilities Act was celebrating its thirtieth anniversary. This past summer meredith was interviewed by youth today an international digital publication dedicated to examining the wide spectrum of complex issues in the youth services industry. She was asked what the Ada means to her. As covert maintains a foothold in almost every country around the world. Meredith is grateful that the one bright spot has been the use of online and virtual resources to make life and work a little easier. However. Before the pandemic giving those resources wasn't usually available. Now we're death that we times where I wish I could have access classes. I miss. I would Miss Class, a lot because of. My illness and I have a note taker in. So we get the notes from class but especially I always did my best like if I was having a really rough day and I could only go to one two classes made sure that those were the theater ones the ones that in person where it's really important you know to have a lecture like that's the one I'm gifting notes from like it just trying to conserve as much energy as possible in those times but it would have been really nice to be able to watch the lecture you know from my dorm room or something like that is kind of some of the accommodations that I was told weren't possible now everything. Higher Ed looks like that now so it's just You know it's frustrating but also better late than never right It what happened happened I can't dwell on the fact that I didn't have access to that. But now all my will state will. Have Them. So that's good. and. So you mentioned that this is a chronic and so it will be good days and bad days going forward through for the rest of your life basically. Yeah. Some people with plots goes away If it's caused by a virus, people will get mono and that get pots in those cases where it's caused by a virus, it goes away I've had my pot slunk enough in there wasn't any virus that we know of that happened around that. China. So it's unlikely that my will go away. So it'll either stay constant where it has been or it. It would just decline and. I don't know where it's going. So I can't worry about it. Honestly at the end of the day. I just have to worry about the task at hand I think for me I have that goal in preparing to work for someone else also always have a goal a something that's creating my own opportunity for myself in that goal for me right now is trying to start my own nonprofit theater company. I really want to be something that's. Accessible to other people with disabilities and have a lot of opportunities in mostly remote in the way that things have been happening right now not necessarily that all the performance with be virtual although maybe some of them will be but doing things like. Collaborating remotely for eighty percent of it, and then doing a workshop being together for a month in working on it for that month. So trying to do more things like that I think it really brings together my passion for helping other performers with disabilities and then also my patron purchase traveling in being nomad and being able to work from wherever. Launching, some educational opportunities for artists with disabilities as well through that. It is. So Wonderful Meredith wants to use her experiences to create a base and foundation of support and training for others. Certainly learning to live and work with a disability is both challenging and necessary. But there's also a lot of education and learning that needs to happen within the able bodied community as well. My conversation with Meredith was certainly eye opening for me. And if you enjoyed and God as much out of this as I did then please share this episode with someone who you think could benefit from this conversation. If you WANNA share on social media, you can find why I'll never make it at win me podcast. A big. Thank you to Meredith and to you for joining me on today's episode. I'm your host Patrick. Oliver Jones and I also record edit and produce this podcast. Dylan Adams is the booking producer music on this episode provided by Blue Dot sessions you can also find links to the various interview clips you heard today in the show notes coming up next meredith answers the final five questions so join me then as we talk more about why I'll never make it

Meredith eleo wells Cleveland Amherst US New York City Anne Doug Middle School syncope dot Patrick Philip Fisher Oliver Jones Cardiac syncope Teke Cardia Syndrome Portland producer Beijing
Leo Laporte - The Tech Guy: 1835

The Tech Guy

2:48:53 hr | 2 weeks ago

Leo Laporte - The Tech Guy: 1835

"Louis podcasts you love from people you trust is hi. This is leo laporte. And this is my tech guy podcasts. The show originally aired on the premiere networks on saturday. October ninth 2021. Listen carefully for the debut of mica sergeant enjoy. Oh this is episode. Eighteen thirty five. The tech guy podcast is brought to you by user way dot org user way ensures. Your website is accessible. Ada compliant and helps your business. Avoid accessibility related lawsuits. The perfect way to showcase your brands commitment to millions of people with disabilities. You know it's not only the right thing to do sauce of the law. Go to user way dot org slash twit for thirty percent off user ways. Ai powered accessibility solution. And by code. Kademi join the millions of people learning to code with code kademi and see where coating can take you. Get fifteen percent off your coat. Kademi pro-membership when you go to code kademi dot com and use the promo code tech guy and by. At and t. Active on we rely so much on our phones these days are always on them whether it's live streaming content catching up with family on weekly video calls or watching your favorite podcasts. There's no room for fraud calls thankfully. At and t. Makes customer security a priority helping block those pesky calls. It's not complicated. At and t. Active armor twenty four seven proactive network security and fraud call blocking to help stop threats at no extra charge compatible devices service required visit. Att dot com slash active armor for details. Well hey how are you today. Leo laporte here. The tech guy time to talk computers the internet home theater digital photography smartphones. Smart watches all that jazz. You know anything with a chip in it eight ask. Leo is the phone number. Eight eight eight eight two seven five three six nine. That's toll-free from anywhere in the us or canada outside that area. You can still reach me. But it's It's could take something like skype or something like that to do at eighty eight eight. Ask leo the Website you should know this too. It's good to know ahead of time. The website is kyw labs dot com. Why do i say that. Because everything he here on the show goes there in textual for format. Thanks to her scribe. James rubio writes it all down and then they'd also we'll go up there After the fact is audio and video so if you hear something you don't have to rush. Write it down. I know you're busy. You got you got you got your life No reason for you to write it down. We'll write it down for you and you can find it all there and you know. Here's the best part of course free. I'm not going to charge you for that. So it's kinda like We call them show notes in the podcasting trade. The show notes are tech guy. Labs dot com. It's like the old days of websites where you just. He want her hand say halo. I'm here for the show notes while they're right over there. Eighty eight hundred eighty eight. Ask leo tech guy. Labs dot com. I guess that's That's all a mechanics. We could talk about the week. What happened this week in tech news. Absolutely nothing nothing nothing happened. No facebook didn't go down again on friday. What are you crazy no. No there wasn't a whistle blower testified in front of congress saying facebook is more interested in profits than people know that didn't happen. No facebook didn't smear her saying a facebook's response. The whistle blower francis haagen had worked there for a couple of years specifically to l think she came in as a spy but i think specifically. She was there to see if she could help. Facebook be less. Better citizen of the world less problematic. What she found so dismayed her that she started saving documents. Saved a lot of documents and then became a whistleblower federal whistleblower official legally protected whistle blower. I said the documents to the washington or sorry. The wall street journal who did a whole couple of weeks of the facebook files. We talked about this last week. Testified for in front of congress on tuesday facebook's response as as elizabeth lepanto in the verge wrote facebook ran the cowards playbook to smear the whistle blower facebook's response well. And you gotta do this it up voice today. A senate subcommittee held a hearing with a former product manager at facebook. They wouldn't even name her. Who worked for the company for less than two years. Had no direct reports never attended a decision point meeting with c. level executives and testified more than six times to not working on the subject matter in question. So what are you going to believe us. Or you're lying eyes And then of course facebook. A lot of hand waving saying Let don't pay attention to that stuff but we do want you to make some some some laws congress that will benefit us in the long run. Make sure nobody else can be a new facebook. That's all we just wanna you know. We believe in an internet regulation. Sure we do. Actually there was a tweet almost immediately following facebook statement. Guy who wants was her boss's boss said well. I was there for over. Six years had numerous direct. Ports led many decision meetings with c. level executives and i find the perspectives shared on the need for regulation research transparency and oversight to be entirely valid for debate. So there i don't you know this is a really hard problem. I do not think and i'm sure most of you agree. The government should suddenly tell facebook to run their business. Because it's probably not going to work out for anybody you know. I it because congress has all these agendas they wanna run their their different but they all agree that we don't like facebook and mama blah. There is a problem though. There's a problem it's not just facebook. It's problem with. Youtube is a problem with all this any social media that uses a computer. Decide what you see. This is my opinion just my opinion but but what do you think When we when facebook first came along the promise was hey you put your stuff on here your pictures. You're happy stories your birthday parties. You follow your friends and family. Maybe your high school classmates. And they'll put their stuff and then we'll all see each other stuff. It'll be great and we'll connect it'll be great and it was like that originally but they realized you know people are not spending enough time on face but we want them to spend more you know. We want them to spend quality time with us hours a day. How can we do that in the business. That term they use sometimes is engagement. I like the word stickiness better. Because it's kinda gross. The idea is facebook sticky. You can't you can't like you can't stop. You know that feeling right same with twitter. Same with you to same with facebook us. It's really the same tick tock. By the way the up and comer the one facebook's really worried about that's what they want to regulate incidentally he's you can't stop tick puck has a thing if you watch too much like if you're hours a guy comes on says. Hey take a break have can go to the bathroom drinking something. You've watching this for a long time. it's sticky. It's so sticky that they feel like may maybe we'd better proactively kind of tell people don't take a break now because you know this could be bad for your health thing. We know how to make stuff sticky. We know this going back to video games. There was a game called world of warcraft. People would die because they would play so long they would forget to go to the bathroom and they. There was a kid in asia that literally died because he couldn't stop playing world of warcraft. It was that's a little too sticky. Right that's real engagement. And the way they figured out. It's this it's this kind of Virtuous circle where they make it in this case world war at the. I don't know if you've ever played it. But you join other people real people in real life to go on raids in caves and dungeons and stuff and and as you go on the raid you you kill the bad guys and you get loot not real stuff but you know nice armor a fancy wristwatch. I don't know you get stuff. They call him loot drops. And then you all everybody on the ray gets it and you and you leave what world war craft started to observe which loot drops kept people coming back for more just like vegas does this right and how do we get how much. How many times does that slot machine have to pay off to get people to play it all day and all night vegas very good at this. They were the they invented with computers. You can really do that because you know exactly what people are doing on their on your site or in your game. So world of warcraft tuned their loot drops to be maximally sticky maximally engaging and it worked people would spend ten hours a day playing that game and everybody looked at that and said this is good so youtube does that with their recommendations and facebook does that with the way they tune the the news feed notice there are. There's a switch in the news feed to go chronological where you only see things in order. They're still sticking stuff in there by the way but at least you're not they're not reordering it. Even here's the thing on facebook. you could follow. I could follow him. I don't. I'm not on facebook. For this reason i could follow my mom and my sister and my cousins and my high school sweetheart. I could follow them all but i will not see every one of their posts and i may not see them. In order and interest interspersed with those will be other stuff news stories. Group invitations suggestions. Here's something we thought you might be interested in. i would. I would submit when you join facebook. You thought well. I wanna see my mom supposed to my cousins. Post my sisters and my brothers. That's what i'm there for. The facebook realized you're not spending enough time looking at that fact. You can get through that pretty quickly. Let's put some other stuff in there. Keep you watching and maybe put some stuff that we notice keeps you engaged and this is where this is where the computer. The call algorithms really kick in and they're very effective by make by noticing. Oh he spent twenty two seconds on that story and only sixteen on that. Let's do more of the first and it's a very effective system that look at talk very good at this tick talk. You can mess with you if you if you say. I wanna see more cooking videos. Stop watching anything but cooking videos pretty soon. That's all that you'll see on tick-tock it's really effective. And i know this because my son does cooking videos and take talk and even though i'm following him i never see his videos so hank never see your videos. He said the algorithm dad said it just like that. All of them died he. I don't see his videos. Because i don't take talk. Says you're not gonna stick around long enough watching his videos. Even though i follow him and it's the same thing on facebook follow who you want doesn't matter. We got a better idea and where facebook gets in trouble. That's where you to get in trouble tic tac. We'll get in trouble all of these companies. It's the algorithm the al. And now this i think would be an appropriate place for regulation and you know what facebook. Let's do self-regulation. Just say okay. We're gonna stop trying to game. We're gonna let people just do what we promised. In the first place see people they follow and nothing more and you know what we can do. It in chronological order is a switch on facebook but notice you switch it. It's in chronological order. Oh that's nice next time you come back. It's back to the old. We'll tell you what to watch. We know better 'cause they do if all you're optimizing for is profit and that's what francis hugging was saying facebook values profit more than people. Of course it does. It's a company. that's his job. That's his job and it's very good at it that's why it makes billions of billions of dollars is very good at it so youtube. Very good at it. But there's a consequence because the algorithm stuff. Unfortunately it's our nature ever drive by a car accident traffic really slows down right. We love we rubberneckers. We love conflict. We love what's what's the stickiest stuff. The stuff that triggers the most emotion could be love could be happiness but it also could be anger could be outrage and notice and this is why i stopped using facebook. I always felt a little upset. After i went on facebook and i realize it's because they are attempting to get me emotionally frost up because i stay there longer if i am. That's what they have to stop. What do you think that's what my opinion is. That's what they have to stop. And i don't you know maybe a regulation would be a way to do it. Or maybe they should just stop on their own with. They still make money. Yes they make as much money probably not. Would it be better for society. Would it be better for you and me absolutely. Isn't you joined facebook not to get upset about. Maybe somebody somebody did. I don't know. But i joined facebook not to get upset but to see what's going on with my family and my friends. Maybe that's not as sticky. But that's what the promise was. And i think that's why facebook needs to leave up lead. Live up to my opinion. eighty eight. Ask leo here's your chance to express your opinion or find out what's wrong with your printer with do either one eight eight two seven five five three six toll free from anywhere in the us or canada. I'd love to get your calls. Your thoughts your comments on all of this and an and i know it's complicated and it's hard to know exactly you know what the right thing to do here would be. But let's try. Leo laporte the tech guy. More of your calls actually were first calls coming up so in in the That music they're playing. There's a dump and So it's ten seconds into it so once you hear the music you've got about ten seconds and then the dump so there are four breaks top of the hour. Got roughly quarter. After half past quarter of. I'll i'll give you the clock But the the top the bottom are what they call heartbreaks because their network out so that we have to hit it exactly at the time. The quarter after. Quarter of our f- flexible. But what i found my life is if it's flexible like i just did i talk too long and then i'm screwed in the next break you'll be a minute break. Yeah so. I allow myself flexibility only at the beginning of the hour. Because that's the churn and so this is wrong already but it will be right for the rest of them when it's green it means i'm talking red or yellow. Means you have a minute left. Red means thirty seconds left and then blue means in commercial so this is actually how much until the next time i have to stop. So that's slow. Ticking down but you'll see for the rest of the brakes it'll be right on. It's only the first one. I allow myself that. So and then what happens. Is they play. That'sounder and in that sounder is embedded tone. It's an audible that triggers automation equipment because many of the radio stations don't have human sitting at the board to play their ads automatically. So there's a there's a post in it after ten seconds ago and then that dump is when the that's the trigger tone is in there so that means technically i will be cut off by many of the stations at that exact point so if i talked past that point some stations. Don't hear it and it's really hard. that's i'd just screwed it up just now. I kept talking a little bit. But i try to make it so that that could end at a reasonable point like there's a pause and in theory. I shouldn't talk at all after that. And then the and then our wonderful board op. Hello wonderful buoyed up. She's great she's down in. Sherman oaks. She so she cuts. Mike have to worry about cutting your mic. So like right now. My mike's hot but could be on the air but it's not so you do hear everything. Yeah yeah okay so now. I'm not getting acute from this about three or four seconds before you can talk. And then she'll hello telephone. Angel shafir is back. Did you have a nice vacation. I went to a wedding. And i have fifty cents here because Both burke heather lose. I did not make out with the best man nor did i make out with the band. So can i just mentioned just because it's a sensitive topic did not participate in this wager at all. Well i am happy to be fifty seven. I have no idea who burke and john are in fact. I don't think i've ever met this woman. I don't know who you are heather. I don't know who they are. I have no knowledge of this betting going on under my roof. Yeah that was fun. Why didn't you make with the best man if i might ask He was married. Well that's a good one was married in one was gay so the options and then there was no band. There was a dj. so i'm just curious but had one not been married. One been straighter. Their band had banned never mind. I don't wanna know. Who should i talk to the life of you. Let's go to Let's try and save a marriage. How about jacob and orange county because you know his wife portable a sugar into his laptop tonight marriage. it's over. thank you welcome. Thank you jacob. Leo laporte the tech. I what happened. Hey good morning. Leo orienting. I'm fine how are you more to the point. Yeah well we're great unfortunately my wife's dumped a whole bowl of sugar on my laptop computer that not on purpose right. No no is complete and total accident. How do you dump out i. I don't even need to know. The laptop was on the kitchen counter. Partially my fault. Yeah that's what she's saying. That's her story. She sticking with it Was it wet sugar. Just dry sugar. Try granulated sugar. That's good because if it had been wet that would have been a problem. It would've penetrated in and And that's like if you spilled a soda pop on your keyboard that usually means it's over so this is a laptop and it it. It didn't penetrate right. It's just granules right. Yeah you shake it out crunchy okay. So here's here's what. I was most laptops. You can remove those key caps before you do that. Take a picture please. And i only know this from personal experience having removed the key caps and then going oh crap i know it's q- wty but where does where does this go so take a picture So you know we're all the key caps are going to go and then you can gently use a butter knife since you're in the kitchen pry off the key caps and what that's going to do is expose the switches underneath and that's where the crunch where the crunchy goodness lies. And you could blow it out with compressed air or i wouldn't use your breath but And i wouldn't use a hairdryer. Nothing warm but you could blow it out with compressed air. Be careful when you use compressed air in a computer because if you keep pressing the squeezing the button it starts getting condensation so cold and then you're blowing moisture in the computer moisture is the enemy so remove the key caps. Shake shake shake. Shake if you've got a little they make little computer vacuum cleaners little tiny vacuum cleaners. That would work Burke who is our repair guy here at the studio says no don't blow on it nobuo. Compressed air vacuum Nobody he probably has a vacuum small enough. But you can get those granules out. His chances are it. Hasn't penetrated into the mechanism. Most laptops keyboard has kept somewhat separate from the insides. Not maybe waterproof. So whatever you do don't get it wet this point take off the key caps. Shake it out. Put him back. You're good to go leo. Laporte teke missed it again. You heard that little you actually have like maybe two seconds after the bam bam bam the Tone is the tone in they. Give you the automation. Isn't that fast. The robots bad Oh they give me more time. Mike says maybe. Don't tell. Tell him that i should introduce you to mica. Oh you do you have a camera. Oh but it's not it's not it's not hooked up i can put it up here. This is my. Don't tell julie yet. But i i haven't told her yet but i thought it'd be good to have an apprentice help. Yeah exactly precisely. Mike is a great guy. There's a couple of benefits to mica. He's young and he's good looking young and hip and handsome. So there's three benefits so Eventually i'm gonna do is kinda get them used to this. And then we've gotta fix the backdrop because that really looks crappy but Eventually i'm going to start introducing him as my My apprentice and he's gonna help me with questions so it's going to start a two person show a little bit and that's really if he can get comfortable and now expected to happen overnight but if he can get comfortable in a few months the s then i think the idea is. He's on our staff he could take my place. Yeah maybe that'd be a good target. But i have to talk to premier about it because obviously they have to once they meet mica. They'll love as everybody does so. He's super smart super talented young very personal. He does number shows on our on the regular network on the podcast network. He's really good. So but i want to get him like of comfortable. This is not ideal. We gotta get you a table. You can put your laptop on we gotta get better backdrop. I don't know we could put a sign up there. I'm mike oh does have a mike. Though right there is and listen to his nice way. He's a nice boy. Hello pleasure to meet you see. He's nice guy. Mica sergeant the tech lad has never made out with kim shafir. There's another selling point. Apparently that's something. Wow you the one who brought it up. I would have never said that you know have it. There's a bet on f. I'll make out with the best man. Good lord she said that on st either i heard it. I saw it with my own eyes. And then they're saying. Mike needs a This is going to become like a morning zoo. Yeah can you get get some get some devices kazu's and warns i have. I have voices. I voices as we're gonna turn this into the howard stern show. Oh my god. Yes i have. I don't know if this is working yet. Now i got. Some reason streamed once in a while. I have to re jigger. This has all the sound effects. I got page after pages out effects. And so yeah. We're ready. we're ready to zoo. You can handle all the technology. And i'll be the laughing girl in the. That's that's always the rover yelp the women. Yeah like going back to robin quivers on stern. She didn't have just laughs. She holds her own now. she's getting. Yeah i noticed. She's gotten a little she's a little bit good for her while she's only been doing very something years. I'm sure saved baba buoy about buoy. Good all right so now. We're getting ready for this cat. Ryan here. Mr scott welcome sonian. Hello scott with leo. how're you doing. Good thanks mike hello scott. I don't think we've officially. I don't think so nice to see you. Yes nice to see you as well so there you go here now. His theme song grew each has their own lower third. So i switched that and then the theme song and and i'm on the two shot so we can see him and of course. This is music that they played right. Scott laura laces gotcha. So laura does all the music and we don't by the way put it in the podcast because we don't own it so this it's time for the hipster himself. Mr scott wilkinson. Our home theater geek. He's all about the big screen. Tv's the surround sound contributed tech dot com. Hello scott hello. Say hello to the man in the tv. I'm doing well. Actually i see you. People don't know you're on skype resume or something. And i see you on a really pad television set. I don't know who makes this. But it's like you're in the room with me your heads roughly the same size as mine. Roughly the same size. Yeah it's kind of tech. You know we've been doing this. Because when i started in the podcasts sixteen years ago Most of the hosts people like you weren't in town with me so we use always used zoom or skype or some so. We're used to it now. everybody does it. Yeah it's the thing you watch cnn. It's william shatner is a he's zoom in when he's in space i don't know he's only up there for three minutes. You don't have a whole. It might take you that long. You're on mute. Bill bell already never mind. Yeah right that's what is he at soon right. It's like next week. I i thought. I heard something on the news shepherd on jeff. Bezos is man many rocket over twelfth. He goes up so it's three say that is pretty cool. Yeah yeah yeah. Hey how long did you do star trek two years. It wasn't very long three years three years. It was cancelled the movies. Yeah then they brought it back because they thought they canceled and thinking nobody wants. His daddy said wait a minute. That was show. They made movies. Yeah exactly he was in six movies. I think seven. Yeah he's ninety years old and you would never know he's great he. He looks better than you and me. I don't understand it. yeah. I don't either i don't either. So what do you want to talk about today. Besides going into space. We'll actually what we were talking about a moment ago about being physically in the room to be yes. There was a big big announcement today. That brings that a lot closer to reality. I have no way to talk to him. What was that It it's from a company called light field labs. They are in san jose. Wait a minute. Isn't that the thing that we saw. The google was doing the light field. That made you a three d. Object as zooming your or google meeting. Isn't that the technology that's what they call it. I'm not. I'm not sure about that. It is the technology is called light field and basically is technology that creates a a three dimensional image in front of a screen. It's not glasses based on stereotypes. Copy or auto stereoscopic where you don't need glasses but you're still being presented to flat images To to your who is that is not true. Lager fee this is so when you're seen it. I haven't but the next time in san jose believe me i will be going to light field lab. I have seen a another demonstration of this type of technology. In fact i talked about it here. A couple months ago from avalon hall of graphics but that was of pretty crude. This is orders of magnitude more advanced. We saw sort of this kind of thing when we're at cs two years ago. Didn't we know what we were seeing a now. Know what we were seeing was more auto stereoscopic okay Light field really replicates. Exactly what you see out in the world you look at you look out in the world and and light rays are reaching your eyes from all different directions and that gives you all kinds of cues about exactly where it is with the scariest gothic image. The light rays are only reaching you from two to direct one direction. Really each i. It only gets light from one direction. But with this you're getting. This is a way of reproducing. Exactly how light. Rays reach your eye from the real world. Do you have to sit in a very specific smoother new. You can walk around the object. It looks like it's like it's floating in air. It's it's really astonishing. It's a little sparkly though right like kind of not well. No no no Dig this with a with a television. Say sixty five inch four k. Tv you have eight point. Three million pixels okay. S- play you have ten billion pixels in roughly the same area. Wow yeah yeah they. They demonstrated it with a twenty eight inch. Diagonal cubic tile and like micro. Led which we've talked about on this show a number of times. You can assemble these tiles into a much larger display and the demonstration that that a lot of people wrote about last week. I didn't get a chance to 'cause. I didn't see it but There was one video at least c net where a woman went in there. And she said i'm trying to reach this. This chameleon and i'm trying to touch it and it's my hand just passes through air. There's nothing there but it was seriously realistic. Is i can't wait to see it. I think it's going to be really amazing. Imagine first of all. I imagine a wall-sized. Tv like we've been talking about micro led but where the people or the action. Whatever you're watching is out in front of the screen looking all the world like it's in the world like it's real. It's it's astonishing okay. You tell me when you see it. How astonishing it is. I'm very skeptical about all this stuff. About far from san jose. Am i allowed. Can you see i'm here. I'll hook you up man. I know i know those people. Yeah i'm looking at the video and their website and they make so. It's it's another one of these where i feel like. They're kind of tricking you. Because there's only one holographic thing that chameleon the rest of it's real so they're putting in what looks like a terrarium and the rest of it's real rare him in the hall. I have to tell you. Think i'd be fooled. You're looking at a two dimensional sparkly. Well again. I haven't seen it my you tell me when you see you so i don't know so skeptical about this stuff. I know keep promising this. I know i know. But from what i've seen from what i've read and what i've seen they're planning to to bring this to market in some form of birds. Is they get those billions of dollars in venture capital. They're going to burn it to market. They've already got good. Va reisen casserole. Fester heavily because if if you could get this to work you'd be you'd be you'd be resilient it'd be a kazillionaire but but if so the first step before getting to work is to get a gazillion dollars from companies who think you can make it work. Maybe you could skip the last part recently. I just recently heard a phrase or a motto from silicon valley. Fake it till you make or just fake it. Because there's tiny confidence in these guys. I write to these. I'm sorry i'm such a cynic. They know what they're doing. So how did they so they must have projectors aiming at your eyeballs right. They have some sort of light source aiming at your eyeballs and a screen that controls the phase and direction of the light beams and they must have a camera looking at where your eyes are so they could aim the beams right. Well no no the beams. I if you're looking at something out in the real world it doesn't care whether you're looking at it or not those the light coming reflecting off of an object in the real world those light rays go in a certain direction. Yes and there are. They happening is. There's an infinite number of them correct obviously not couple yes right right so if but this thing has like ten billion of him. Oh i guess yeah. And that's that's starting to reach the threshold of believability. Yeah it's yeah it's amazing. It's i'm i'm very impressed. All right. we've been waiting for a legit kind of all a graphic image. Yep that's been stuff of fi. Scott wilkinson all his stuff. A tech high dot com and other places joining here every week. Leo laporte the tech. Thank you scott ben. I don't know why. I'm such a skeptic. Maybe this time eventually somebody will do it i. I can't wait to get there and see it. Yeah yeah yeah. Maybe it's a long way to go but it might know might be worth it just to The unfortunate an unfortunate reason for me to be near there is a good friend of mine recently. passed through. You're going up anyway. So when i go up for that and i don't know when the memorial is yet no i'll meet you there. We should. we might as well do it together. Yes absolutely. I'd be happy to do that. They can. they can disabuse me of my notion. Just you know with so many companies like magic leap You know so. Many companies been trying this and glass. Yeah and no this. This is the real deal. I what does it take to make the video they have to have many many cameras shooting the object. It must have such. You'll know camera. Certainly there are. Things is light field cameras and shoot from many different directions. You remember the light tro tr. Totally remember the light truck. Yeah that that's an early form of a light field camera and so you you know you can do that and it was best. It's never mind you know it was It was before its time. Oh that's it before it worked is what it was but for at work okay four. It's time to work. Yeah i am. I'm pretty convinced. And what. I suggest is he not only look at the light field lab video but look at the c. net video. Okay okay. yeah a looking at it on a two d scream understand. See the three attache part of it but you can hear the woman. Who's who's the c net correspondent. She goes into the room. she looks at it. She describes it for you That that i think is a a better introduction on to the idea yeah And it's on their website. You know on on their website. There's a section called press and one of the c net links is to that video. And i really recommend that you check that out and listen. Listen to her talk about it. Don't just watch it. I have to say all of the demo things look like. They're not real. They're they're rendered like they're they're creating these in a computer there. Cgi in other words. I don't know about this particular example. I don't know i don't it could be. It could be and the other thing to keep in mind is. This is not headed toward. What's very expensive. Sure cels tremendous tremendous tremendously expense. Yeah yeah. I'm sure i'm sure of that. I mean the first applications are going to be industrial corporate but imagine a table with With a they having this example on the screen on their website a table with a motor and the motor is floating in space above the table. And you can look at it and you can manipulate it. Move it around so for design applications. This is this is really going to be something. I'm reading jeffrey morrison's peace and even he says you know i'll give you the his he says Silicon valley is rife with random startups somehow get capitals wherever light field. Labs a who's who serious tech. It's already sold on preorder. They're actually building them. History is also rife with companies claiming holography and coming soon holiday. style tech. Solid bite has some fantastic. I'm sorry fascinating. Physics could be the breakthrough. Could be the breakthrough that holograms to be mainstream. We'll see you want us to the top. You're to thank you our show today. Br i'm very happy to have this sponsor on with us I was really thrilled to talk to them. They are really making a difference. You know we have a lot of blind listeners on the show. 'cause radio's accessible to people who don't have low vision or no vision right you can listen. It's great that's what one of the wonderful things about radio. But what about your website. Can they access that. Can they handle the nath bar do they. When there's images on the website can they hear what that image describes this is and this is something that of course is right to do you wanna make. Your website is accessible as possible. You want to open your website to the millions of people with varying abilities for sure. But i also might add that. It's also your legal responsibility. Thanks to the americans with disabilities. Act the fda. You need to keep any public facing entity accessible actually. There's a supreme court cases the one of the big pizza companies was it domino's roundtable can't remember. One of the big pizza company said well. Our website is acceptable. We have a phone number. Court said no. The website is a public entity separate but equal is unconstitutional as illegal. It and you've got to make your website accessible so among all the good reasons to this is also the scary one you want to avoid lawsuits user ways the way to do it. This is a really great company user way dot. Org usc r. w. y. Is ai powered. And i'll explain it a bit why you need to do this. That goes through your website and tirelessly enforces the hundreds of wchs wchs guidelines keg. That's how i was told that's how they pronounce is the world wide web's web content accessibility guidelines if you adhere to those guidelines. Your lawsuit proof. You're you're doing the right thing. You're opening your site to a lot of people and you don't have to worry about accessibility lawsuits and it. How easy is this one line in java script and that makes your site accessible user waken achieve more than an entire team of developers. I know how hard this is now. Challenging is if you've gotta small business you've got a website it's you go. Oh i can't handle it. It seems so complicated so overwhelming but user way makes it easy. simple cost. effective is very foldable. Check out there. Free scanning tool right now. You can go to their website and see if your site is. Ada compliant user. Way works so well. It's used by over a million websites including some of the biggest companies in the world. Coca-cola uses at disney ebay fedex. And now they're making this best in class enterprise tool available to small and medium businesses. Millions of people will suddenly have access to your site will will need user way to purchase your products. Why would you lock them out. And the beauty is if you need to scale look. Are you going to get bigger than coca cola disney. I don't if you need to scale user can do it. They do it with a i. Because for instance the all tags we talked about this before the images on your website if you wanna make your website accessible. there's a way to give. Accessibility layer for all websites that screen readers and other tools us. You wanna make sure that accessibility louis later. Lay layer has a text description of the of the image on there. You go through all your images. You'll miss some. It's a lot of work user way. Does it automatically we they. I recognize the images. Says golden gate bridge. Now you can modify it. If you want this the other thing they can walk you through it. So you can customize this user way is so easy to use completely platform agnostic wordpress shop affi- wicks works same goes for. Am site core share point. It's one line. Javascript couldn't be easier. actually i have. I have a visitor. Susan bennett does the voice of siri. She loves user. Right i'm susan bennett. The original voice of sierra. You won't hear me say something like this too often. I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're looking for. But every day. That's what the internet is like for. Millions of people with disabilities user way fixes all of that with just one line of code. Javascript listened to siri user. Way can make any website fully accessible and ada compliant with user way. Everyone visits your site comprises seamlessly customize it to fit their needs also perfect to showcase your brands. Commitment to millions of people with disabilities to use her way dot org slash twit. You get thirty percent off user ways. Ai powered accessibility solution user way making the internet accessible for everyone user way dot org slash twit. Thank you use your weight I'm so glad we could talk about this. Please use that addresses. They know you saw it on the tech podcast user way dot org slash twit now back to the show leo laporte. The tech guy data. Shame eighty eight. Eighty s leah larry's on the line from san francisco. Hi larry leo. Nice to talk to you again. Used to talk to you I have i. I want to throw out a giant. Thank you for. I drive for for Advertising i drive and letting me learn about it because it saved my life last night. Let me let me get the i-drive add all queued up. That's great advertisers. So good what what happened. Well it ties into the question i have. I was trying to figure out trying to get my computer to a place where i could install windows eleven later and i keep getting this issue. It says i need to initiate secure boot. And i done everything i'd read about. I updated my bio as zeus motherboard. Updated bios i went in to The byles to try and find the control that you're supposed to flip to turn secure boot on and i couldn't find it anywhere so i did some more reading and it said that you should also have participations need to be g. P. t. t. P. t. so let me ask you a couple of questions was this machine Is this a as machine that you bought a in the store no built a you built it and and when installed windows installed his fine windows ten sure yeah So you had secure boot turned on because you without secure boot windows. Ten wooden install either at some point. Did you go into bios and turn off secure boot. Because that's a bios technology you know. I didn't even know what secure gloves anything about. Microsoft started doing this a few versions ago where they would cryptographic. Cryptography sign the operating system and then the computer would have keys and in this was keep a bad guy from modifying your operating system. The computer would have keys and say. Oh yeah yeah. This is for microsoft. It's good and you would install it the reason i'm aware of it is because Most lennox not cryptographic signed the certificate doesn't exist in the bios so you couldn't install inex- on these machines unless you disabled. Secure boot what you can do you. Most people wouldn't want to chromebooks come with a secure boot processes well because it's a good for security. When when microsoft first introduced a lot of people said oh yeah. It's also good for microsoft because you can't but but y'all install windows without and you can't stalling besides windows with it but they did give you switch to turn it off. I don't know why it's not seeing secure boot. That's what's interesting. Yeah i did see something about keys casting around and change touch anything anyway So i more reading and it says you have to have partitions not pt. And i you do if you had if the only thing you've ever done on this machine is windows ten. Is that correct. Yes it's all properly setups. You're using secure boot. You wouldn't have been able to install when ten without it their gp. It's you efi. So all of that is is a given otherwise windows. Ten wouldn't be. What's the process that you're using to upgrade to windows eleven. Not upgrading to it yet. I just used her their health tool to see if i could. It said you can't right because it keeps telling me. I need to say teepee. Pm saying anything about t. pm. No it says secure boot wondering if this is a t. Pm issue microsoft has said windows. Eleven will not install machines. That don't have an eighth generation or later until processor. How old is your machine mind. Well it's gosh maybe two years. I know like i've run the test before the the checker and said everything is fine except your boot. How strange You need not pm. Two point support that can be there in hardware-software it's usually in hardware an intel thing that comes with a machine you built it yourself with the From scratch okay. The processor on there then It's an is seven. Eighty seven hundred okay so that that is eight generation right so but but so i went looking around for programs. Because i read that you'd have to have some somewhere said you have to have. Gpt of mbr. Yeah but you wouldn't have mbr unless you for some reason. Maybe it's because he's a home built computer it's home built and i have windows ten. Because i've upgrade like i've had this upgraded to windows ten from all right so it's possible that when you formatted the drives way back when when you built this for some reason you ford mad at him. Mbr which is master boot records the old way of looting computers. We haven't done that some time. Gpt is the modern way of doing it in order to make this work. You'd probably have to reinstall windows ten from scratch. Like i think up the drive effect. Probably this is what's going to happen. Forget the compatibility checker. I think it's giving your bogus information. it's possible you don't have secure boot turned on since you built it yourself But to do that you go go into the bios settings is this look at the security settings right and and it should say secure boot legacy mode should be turned off. Okay and then. Do you have a lot of stuff on this computer. You don't wanna lose because Yes that's where. I drive. I drive is going to save your booty because that's f. But you gotta make sure. I drive completed before. You assume you've got a full backup backup locally to which is probably a better idea. Well that's what i was coming to. I drive save me. Because i found a program that claims to change. Mbr partitions to gp. T. so i ran it and it looked like everything was fine. Could possibly go wrong in my sense. It was midnight when i was doing. This is believe me. It's normal completely. Nothing good happens. And you know so. I went back into bios to see if i could. You know something been. Some switch had been flipped somewhere. Everything looks the same. So i go back to reboot to win those and it will i. I'm like oh my then. I remember it. Npr means master. Boot records right. You've changed you've probably wiped your master boot record. Yes that's what. I figured i tried. I tried you know booting from A windows Usb key to see if it could repair itself and all this just to windows eleven no wasn't gonna install well ready to it. It worked at the bug vowed and everything. But luckily i have a local. I cloned my drive. I drive onto i. Have you know the cloud backup. And i also keep a clone on a more male dry. That's one of the nice things about i drive. It does both and it's good to do both. You should have bus- also last night. And i just plugged in the little program to run i-drive and plugged in my backup and let it run overnight and i'm halfway back thank heaven alleluia. Thank you i ultimately. I think what you wanna do is probably is the case when you build a computer. You didn't worry about this and and didn't know and so you formatted mbr. I would guess maybe you pref- maybe pre-formatted the drive before you did the installer. The installer would do it right so i think probably the easiest thing to do is wait to windows. Eleven comes out At that point. I mean it is out but it wait till it's offered to you. I guess what i should. It came out on the fifth But very few people actually got offered us eleven So once once it saying in in order to see this you'd have to go to update and it says. Hey hey look you can get windows eleven. See if it ever says that and if it does let it go and it might do it all anyway if it never offers it to you and i think it's a microsoft has said that pretty much everybody will get it by early next year. Whatever that means first quarter next year. If you still don't if you really want it and by the way no reason to really want it it's mostly a cosmetic update Maybe by early next year things like the android store will be in there and some updates that make a difference but right now just fresh paint on the old windows ten I like it and you know. But they're still bugs with it and stuff. So i wouldn't rush to do it anyway but at that point you probably would want. You've already got a good backup. Just download the windows. Eleven eyeso- and running on top of it. We wiped the drive and start over and it will be smart if you run the windows installer. An empty drive. I would delete all the partitions. It will then partition it properly. Put the right. Gp and on it and everything. That's a strange thing. You thank goodness ride drive by the way our sponsor i should give i should really i think the federal trade commission would require me to say at this point. They are sponsored but they are beloved all. Okay scotty. it's all yours. My friend thank you. They minutes thirty five seconds at goodness so Yeah hey everybody. Nice to see you as always. I've been talking to the table in the chat room about Something he was asking about called m. x. four d. and It's one of these things that's available in. certain theaters. theater group is called b. and b. theaters. And they look like they're in the midwest maybe Anc any hannibal main street Overland kansas i assume shawnee topeka kansas tulsa. Looks like and what it is is motion activated seats. So you're watching the movie and if you're in an airplane in the movie and the and you're flying around your seat is going to move around or if there's a big explosion your seats going to rumble in jump around and i hate that that is. It makes me sick literally motion sick now. I'm susceptible to motion sickness anyway. So it's not really surprising. But i remember some quite a few years ago at cd. Run co the the company that used to make very high and home. Theater projectors set up a demo theater at sadia and they had these motions activated seats. And i sat down started the demo. The seat started moving around. And i got up and left right away us at sorry. I can't do this. This is really uncomfortable. So i came back a couple of days later and i was very honored. They said here sit in this seat. We unplugged the the motion activator. So you can see the video that we're doing so that was very nice of them and i thank them very much for that but it makes me run screaming from the from the theater. So if if you're into that kind of thing. I know some people who've put that in their home theater and more power to them If if you like that kind of thing you can buy it. You can install it in your home theater and knock yourself out. But i wouldn't be caught dead with it in my home theater. That's for damn share Let's see red winthrop was asking about a about a sixty five inch smart. Tv budget's about fourteen hundred dollars. Don't have cable just all the major streaming services. Well in that case. I would if you have fourteen hundred bucks. Let's see. am i correct that the sixty five inch lg c. One is now in the twelve hundred dollar range. Let me look that up. l. g. c. sixty five c one if so that would be the tv. I would recommend whoops damn typing fingers. Lg sixty five c one. Oh no we're in the eighteen hundred dollar range fifteen hundred yeah like eighteen hundred dollar range fifteen sixteen hundred sam's club so if you can stretch your budget that far and that's only a couple of hundred bucks more than than your than what you said. Your budget is if you can do that. That is my first recommendation for a sixty five inch now. If you ain't to black friday you'll probably you'll probably get it down into that range. I'm going to be doing my black flight. Friday research here relatively soon because it's coming right up Anyway phoenix were one is asking despite my not liking foundation. Are you gonna go see dune. And the answer is yes. I'm actually gonna go see it in an imax theater. I am hesitant to do that. But i know the projectionist at the tcl chinese theater which has a big i'm laser theater in it and i looked up dune technical specs and found out that it does change aspect ratio. If you're in an i max theater and so i figure okay. That's probably what the director intended. I'm sure it's what the director intended. So i should see it that way. I should see really the best way. The director intended. And because it's such a spectacle. I think this is a case. Where seeing it in a theater is going to be much better. So i'm going on opening day and i will talk about it. That's friday october. Twenty second i will talk about it the next day. on this show and i'm going down to the max. Tcl the first show of the day. Eleven forty in the morning. Hopefully it won't be quite as crowded. Although i bet you probably will so anyway that i am going to go see it in the theater. Where my masks. The whole time. I will have had my booster shot by then. I'm getting that next week. You're getting a boost. Your you lucky guy. Yeah you were pfizer. I wish i did get the pfizer vaccine. You're one hundred years old so you get it right away. I just i just miss it. But i got moderna so i got so you. Don't get the king of vaccines. Yes you did. Get the king of unknowingly. Least you got pfizer. But she's too young to get The booster what's going to beg for five. He's gonna beg for before we go to mexico. Yeah when are you going to mexico. October twenty seventh two. Th two weeks from wednesday. Oh my god. How long will you be there just a week on this one weekend. You missed one weekend. Are you doing re reruns. Or we're doing reruns right. Laura mike and it. We're doing accepts leo laporte. The tech says too soon. No poor laura has to make a show out of old tidbits laying around unless you here so you don't. You could skip that week. It's the week of halloween october. Tober thirtieth you don't have to do okay but the the week the saturday at the twenty third talking about dune at amac. Oh you're going to see dune Damn well what did you think. Foundation getting better. I i did watch the third episode of mike. You know what. I really like is the emperor's i really enjoy that i do. Yes that's a really cool idea. Yeah it's not part of the original series if you if you let go the fact that it's not like the it's only really references a little bit. There's harry seldom book. They never explained it. I don't want any spoilers. But i won't but at the At the end of the second episode something dramatic happens Which they have yet to explain. That's right right. They don't expect we don't know what happened. Why it happened in the book in the book. There's no there there is just this happened of. There's no explanation and the book either. Now oh but but after. Harry selden the next part of the book. Is you know fifty years later. Yeah and they're already in that in the tv show. Yeah exactly. They've jumped ahead but the that that surprising event is unexplained and on. I'm bummed about that. I wanna know why why we have to imagine why. I think we were talking about this because the conversation at lunch is it is a clue right. Remember that conversation. He carries testing him about his meme. That's a clue. But i don't. It means all right. Thank you scott. Well hey it's me. Yeah i'm a little surprised to The tech guy. That's me Leo laporte this is the show. We talk about computers. The internet home theater digital photography. We answer your questions about anything with a chip in eighty. Eight eight ask. Leo's the phone number eight eight eight two seven five five three six toll free from anywhere in the us or canada outside that area. It could still reach us. But you have to use skype or something like that to to call eight eighty eight Ask leo website tech guy. Labs dot com mentioned. That's a you don't feel like read anything down if you're something or you're upset if you're yelling at the radio no need. Don't let your blood pressure calmed down. Just go to the website and you can yell at me on the website it's free. There's no sign up and you can leave. Comments tech guy. Labs dot com. I won't take it personally even if you mean it. that way. Tech guy labs dot com. Ooh boy was there a big hacking news this week. There's one that got a lot of headlines and then there's one that no one has mentioned which i thought was kind of interesting so the one that you're seeing a lot of news about his twitch twitch that's where young's go to stream themselves playing video games or sitting in hot tub oddly enough and And then people come in. They watched them do that. They chat and then they throw money at them literally. We have a friend who does a minecraft series Used to show on minecraft force. My podcast network. And then he became a youtube star and he said well. I'm i'm taking my take my bricks and going off on my own and i gave him my blessing and he's started doing on youtube but then he went to twitch and he's may started making a lot of money because people would sit there and chat and and kind of here tip him the tip him and now twitches added subscriptions so twitches of is. You know it's a platform where you can go and watch people play games. Basically it's done very well purchased by amazon a couple years ago. Apparently though They didn't get the memo on securing data. Because a bad guy downloaded everything. This was not a ransomware attack. This is just. He said you know what. I don't like you. I'm downloading everything. And i'm putting it up on on the internet on a site called fortune. One hundred twenty eight gigabytes that was basically everything the source code for the software even for stuff they were working on. That hadn't been released yet but the big attention passwords. Yes so if you're twitch person change your password turn onto factor streaming keys twitches reset all of those people stream on twitch strategy a little streaming on twitch. i got the memo. We're going to change your key Maybe most interestingly they also released how much money people make onto which whole my goodness by the way i just want to announce this show is going to be on twitch from now actually i think it is on twitch but i don't make that kind of money the top earner on twitch they they release the amount of money given to this cut these people from august two thousand nineteen through september twenty twenty one the time of the breach ten million dollars over that two year period ten million dollars now twitch takes half of it so they got all the only five million dollars. Aw and it doesn't reflect all the money they get from sponsorships and there's lots of other things They can endorsements they can do. I liked it though because the number one the number one earner twitch you would think. Oh it's probably somebody playing you know. Legal legends or some really popular no. They're playing dungeons and dragons. Critical role was the name. And it's a you know what it's much more like a traditional bunch of guys getting. It's like almost like a radio show like a morning. Radio show gets the guys wise crack while they play Dungeons and dragons that's the top earner i love it. That's why twitches kind of interesting to me. It doesn't It's not it's not. It's not not what you think. it is anyway. Chris was a crucial role as crucial role critical role. Okay have you watched the mike overproduced. You don't like him. No i there we go. Yeah i feel it's a little over produced for me so it's they. The characters have voices. They act they really get into the role cool. That's yeah that's really. Well it's like a show. Yes it's it's more of a show than it is kind of what i'm used to when i'm watching. Dnd shows where it's some friends getting together and doing. There's a little bit of role playing. This is incre. I mean when they should be making money they spend a lot of radio show. Yeah if you watched. I mean the sets that they set up and spending the money they make they set up those little. You know diorama things where you've got all the different characters on the. I should by the way i just turned your mic on. I should introduce. This is my good friend mike sergeant. He's been working for us for some time well known Journalists in the tech industry and I think we're going to. We're going to introduce more mica into the show because he'll be our weatherman. What do the internet whether report pica sitting in with me today. So it's nice to have somebody y- one of the youths. He's a ute cloudy. We're under thirty right. I am on your millennial. Then or no. I'm a young millennial. You're young for a millennial. Yes so weird yeah. I'm on what what's the next gen z. Yes although another thinking about calling them Pandemic because they've grown up des. Yeah i don't think you're a pandemic. No no i'm yeah i'm just on the young millennials. They say that the cutoff is mark. Zuckerberg's birthday believe it or not. He's like thirty five or thirty. I disagree mow. It means you grew up in. You came of age in the millennium. the two thousands. Yeah which is how. I cried myself. Yeah okay but you but there's always been a facebook in your life. Then i remember in high school learning about it happens. Yeah yeah and getting on the platform back. Whenever you mentioned. that's when you shared. It was just kept up with your is now. My kids still use it that way. Roughly your age. They the kids they went to college with. It's still follow. It's kind of how they know what's going on I think a lot of people use it. That way. And i wish facebook would say okay. That's fine that's good. We like that eighty anyway. I thought mike and say hello. Mike hello everyone you. He'll be here from time to time and And if and if i can show him all the ins and outs of how this stuff works. Because it's kind of complicated. Lots of buttons buttons to push but see i. I started with just one button and then slowly increase. You're going to have to start with them all at once right. Yeah so we're gonna it's gonna take a little training eight ask leo ends next palos verdes. California hi an hi welcome. Thank you thank you so much for your shows. The only way. I have to ask questions. I am your personal tech guy in okay. My my main problem is my cell phone. I think i've been hacked. But before that i wanna to ask you about. This app called clear which is used for venues to entry. They asked for food or of your driver's license. Oh it's going to get worse than that. If you wanna use it they take a picture of your eyeball in and a fingerprint biometric. So clear started at the airport as a way of getting into the airplane. A little faster. I did it i. It was very embarrassing when they first came out. 'cause you'd go up there's a special line instead of the normal. Tsa line up to clear line and they go. Okay put your i against the thing and they go okay. It's you we recognize you. And then they marks they stamp your ticket and then they say give us your stuff they put it in one of those you know the gray bins that you use it the the airport and barged through the line. Excuse me excuse me. Important person coming through. excuse me. And they go to the head of the line to the x. Ray machine. It was so humiliating. I never did it again. People are at you like oh or you dude get out of here so once once the pandemic hit then clear said we gotta find another business so they actually yeah. They do the same thing for concert venues and stuff like that. Yeah now. I'm worried about having my driver's licenses on i would worry about your driver's license as much as your eyeball. You're never gonna change your. Irs you can't yes so once. Once biometrics fingerprint palm print your eyeball face. Recognition are in a database somewhere. Yeah that's worse than your driver's let you can always get a new driver's license with a new number. Oh but Is that the only way we can get into going to sports in that yet. No it's a show up and show them. Yeah and they still take tickets and stuff so it just might be a longer process. Although in my experience the clear line is always longer than the regular line. So okay yes need clear. Don't worry about it. We haven't come to that time yet. Where you have to show your eyeball to get into a taylor swift consonants. You don't have. Who do you go see. An what concerts do you go. See i'm i'm i'm going to go see the indian wells tennis fund and they're using clear Yes and they don't mention any other way to get around it. I would check. I would check but i but everywhere i know a lot of what They're starting to use clear for. I suspect vaccine cards right and in I would check with the venue. Gone the venue's website and see if you could just bring your card and show it. I can't imagine that they're requiring clear they don't mention any of way. I possibly could phone them and just show up and if they won't then i can always do it there. You haven't ticket right. Yes i have the uh-huh i cannot. I've never heard of a venue saying you have to have clear. I have used clear at a concert to show vaccine proof of vaccine and you have to download the app but see not everybody in. The world has a smartphone. What do you do if you don't have a smartphone right. That's what i'm seeing that. I think they have. They have to let you in. I don't mind showing it there. But i don't want it online. You know you're you're you're smart in. This is a very good point and this is a real cause for concern you hear about these technology breaches You don't want that information alita. Anyway what was your second question. My second is a serious one okay. Last night i. I got in g mail. Oh thank you for renewing your something something for fourteen hundred dollars forty dollars. Did you know you check your credit card to make sure that nothing was charged. Well i'm not yet. But i replied immediate. No don't reply. No it's harmless to reply but there's no need to. They're trying to get you. And the reason they put a big amount of money is because they know you'll go. Oh my goodness and immediately leap into action and that's what we call a fishing. They're fishing for you. That's efficiency rhode bags and that's not is make that. Yeah but you you told them is gonna live one. Joey was center another email. And i also found. They gave a phone number phone and then they said no such phone number exists. Not they're not going to give you a real fun because they'd get arrested okay. So now i'm worried about my cellphone. No no no no. That's just everybody gets those. I get them all. Until haven't you ever got an email from a nigerian prince. Who says he's got thirteen million dollars for you know but i did You've never gotten that email. Keep cheap your eye peeled. You will I did get a little problem with the Somebody faking Amazon and say here's those are all fishing phishing scams shame on them. Just ignore it and don't respond because spawning says yeah. Sure i'm a what else can i do for you know. Don't don't talk to them. They're bad people. The only time i've ever talked to these guys. I say if. I ever talked to him. Sometimes i pick up your windows broken and i go. Does your mother know what you do for a living. And then they hang up on me. Sometimes they swear at you which is fun. The heck with you know. I'm not leaving the show. I'm not retiring. Mike is just people are freaking out. No i'm not no. We support the teke. What i'm not leaving i'm going. I'm going to halloween now but the not even for that. This is a this is a plan. We want to do for a long time because it did We did we could make a couldn't come in but He joined clear and i've checked his vaccine status. He's he's clear man so so then the other thing too slowly breaking them in. There's so much this and that the other thing is there's podcast ads. Which if it's easier for you. You could absolutely do at the end of the show. Sometimes i do that But sometimes i don't. It's not a good time to do. I have to. Today i've used in code kademi three and eighteen t. So has the thing. I got it so this is really complex. Oh yeah that one where they've got a plan. You have to to make this work you put. Ddr one in preview. Okay and there's the nice lady and then you can see it over here you you're actually gonna have to learn he's attract caster and then you bought up the try caster and then when you switched to preview which on this keyboard i can do with the space bar show auto play i. I'm susan bennett. The original voice of sierra. And then when you switch back she'll reset so she let her talk the whole time and then you reset it. It'll reset automatically so preview. Is this top button. The top number keys and then switch is the function with the same thing. So preview one switched to one preview to switch to. But if you're in if. I have something in preview. I can press the space bar us dissolve. So that's usually what i'll do is i'll put it in preview. You know when. I when. I know i'm going to go to it. And then i'll dissolve into it like that. Then the one other key you need knows f which fades the lower third in and out and you could choose the lower thirds here you click on those always. There's no no you just have to click. So what i usually do during the breaks like this is put up this. This is a special one preview. Nine specialists up here. You change the The mixture you whatever you want anything you want like i could put a could probably put a see. You're on So confusing hey. Johnny jet leo. How are you. I'm good salo to mike. he's sergeant. Hello mikey mikey it's mike. He's he's been insult. I'm being silly looking okay. It's mike mike. I don't think yeah. I don't think we've Chatted before so to meet you to our show are smart tech today shown tech news weekly show but he's super super cool ninja technology ninja. So he's going to be my apprentice on this show. Are you ready for your close up. Oh it's not your turn coming up the tech guy podcast brought to you this week by code kademi. I've been a user code kademi for more than a decade since they started. I took python courses. There you may remember. They were During the obama administration the hour of code and the whole thing to get kids. Coding code kademi was a partner. Their co kademi is a great place to go to become a programmer. And my god. There's never been a better time to become a programmer. And whether you do it professionally. Or as i do it for fun. 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Kademi pro-membership when you go to code kademi dot com and use the promo code tech guy lot of parents. Call me saying. I want my kid to have. He's he's loves computers you. She loves computers. What would be a good way to learn. This'll be great smart middle school or high schooler. Absolutely no trouble. Promo code tech guy code. Kademi dot com. Ceo d. c. a. d. e. m. y. Dot com fifteen percent off co kademi. Pro that's great code. Kademi dot com the best way to learn to code. Oh forget to use the promo promo code tech eyesight here. Thank you code. Kademi now back to the questions. Are you implying that mike. And i are like the jan and dean of tech. Is that what you're saying professor. Laura leo laporte yes. The tech guy eighty eight eighty eight. Ask leo the phone number. I every once in a while. We'll get a call from people like maybe once a week saying there's somebody in my phone usually there's not just want to reassure you We all get these kind of scams this these they call them fishing with a ph phishing. Emails are designed to get you to jump and do something that will compromise security often. They'll look like for instance they come from your bank and they'll say you know i don't know if you know this but a foreign a foreign agent has just taken twenty three thousand dollars out of your account. Is that okay and you go what they always do something to scare you right. That's how they get you to jump without thinking what and then there's a link in this is the key in the email that looks like it's the bank. It looks exactly like you. Click that and it takes you to a webpage and it looks exactly like the bank and asked you log in you. See here what the problem is already. That's not the banks web page giving the bad guy. You're log into your bank so so don't fall for these. No there's no nigerian prince who wants to give thirteen million dollars. There's all sorts of the interest spoke with the secret service about this and and they said these are old con games just updated for the internet so this is nothing new. It's just that it looks like you know people are in your phone. They know you say your name. It's it's i understand it's upsetting and scary but don't fall for an eight hundred eighty eight. Ask leo france and the line from irvine. Hello fran thank you for taking my call. I have a question about a new. i'm act i purchased. Him was delivered a couple of days ago. Congratulations what color did you get you. Oh i bought gray gray but gray you coulda had orange or purple. I know i didn't want it. I just my age graves. Good enough okay. I would get it to match my hair. Yeah could baby match deleo It's been it's been confusing at the apple store when i went to buy it in the first place. Mrs just not the question. But and i told the woman who selling it to me all i have to external hard drives so i'll be able to get use those to transfer information and she went into a big deal with me external hard drives. She's a genius. Genius can clearly not. So here's the thing you can keep your your external hard drives. You do not need them to transfer data over which is what. She's probably trying to explain to you. Know try explain migration assistant when you first turn on that new mac. It'll say. do you have an olmec and you say yes. Oh would you like us to transfer your data from the olmec to the new mech. Why yes and then. I'll give you the instructions. You connect the two or you do it over. Wifi might take a few hours. If depends on much data you have it. It does it automatically. And that's that accepted my new apple person. The second one. I spoke to yesterday on the phone when i told her. I asked you about migration and this woman told me ask you what year my old mac was and my old map is i. Mac is a two thousand thirteen as fun. Hold on a second. I had to take a break. Johnny jet or travel guys coming up but i can i. I'll talk to you. We'll get we'll get through this. Leo laporte the tech guy hub. Sorry i can't do that. I don't know how to do that. Twenty thirteen is fine right. Like i don't think that's sold that she wouldn't be able to use migrelief. Think it's obsolete but the heck with her right No i think migration system works with the older macs to. She's saying that twenty thirteen. You can't put big sur on the latest operating system and that's correct. You're probably stuck in mojave. I would think or maybe even know i think mojave but you should still be able to do the migration assistant. Did she say you wouldn't be able to do that. Categorically wouldn't be able to categorically she said it was obsolete they won't have the parts won't mash with zirk parts parts. There's no parts apples get worse. Yeah i understand. Apple's getting worse and worse. The people that have answering the phone has really quality is really going on. I wrote over the past year. So do you have the new mac now. I have it in my house. I was gonna bring it tomorrow. My question to you is going. It's going to be do. I have to bring boats computers in or do i just bring in my one of my or you can do it. You don't have to bring anything and do it yourself. Yeah it's easy. How so when you like. I said you're gonna turn on your beautiful new gray. i'm eric. I'm so disappointed. You're gonna turn it on. And then i think is going to say is are you are you. Do you have all mac that you'd like to and you say yes and it will walk you through it. They're they're. they're both in the same wifi network. It'll it'll see even this old one. It will see it and say oh. Go look on your old one. And they'll be a thing on the screen you give it permission. You'll have to enter in your log in for the old one and say okay. What do you wanna copies. You get to check the boxes for all the stuff you wanna copy and then we'll do the copy. She's wrong that's that's the whole thing will take over my it. Br library too. Yeah well if it doesn't then you could use your extra. I think there's external drives are good to have for things like that. 'cause you might want to back up. This is a good opportunity to backup things like your music. You don't wanna have only music drag it over to the external drive then then you can important to do that because i got all my music then i so. It is also on the hard drive in the music folder. They'll be an. I tunes folder and in the i tunes folded. They'll be immediate folder and in the media for them your songs so there you could you could drag him over. There's actually a lot of ways to to solve this. I'm surprised that apple is being so weird about this. It helps train very well so music. I'm gonna go to using an eye on the hard drive. you can actually do time machine. Oh yeah never mind. Forget i said all this is. The first thing is going to happen when you turn on the mac going to say. Do you have a time machine backup and you say why. Yes i do plug it in. It's on the external drive plug it in okay job done including all your i tunes music. Everything it into us talking about just putting one computer into the us. The the time machine's backed up on external. Drive right. no. It's backed up in time to shoot me. Time machine has to back up to an external drive so it's on one of those two external drives so you'll take that external drive makes your time machines done. It's complete on the old machine. Shut the machine down. Unplug the external drive with time machine on it. Then turn on the new computer. It'll say do you have a time machine backup you say why. As a matter of fact. I do plug it into the new computer. It'll go got it and copies everything over. Make a town so have apples. Spent a lot of time to make this easy but unfortunately the help is not very well trained. I must say that. So i just put. I told them. I listened to your show. I well that's probably what confused them leo. Okay next to each other my house. You don't even have to put them next to each other. You don't even now. That i know that you have time machine. It'll be very just when you turn on the new. I mak it'll say would you like to restore from an old one and then you say yes and it says. Do you have a time machine. And you say as a matter of fact when you plug that drive in and it'll just restored from the time machine. It'll be very easy. He's been everywhere man. He's breathing the mountain air man. He's going down to palm springs. Getting a suntan. He is johnny jets are traveling guy. Hi johnny hello leo. Been anywhere lately you. I went to a pumpkin farm. Our north underwood farms is a great little family place in moorpark california to give you free. Pumpkin is that why you're plugging them. No no we paid full price bumpkins. Every dollar ten dollars during the week to go in for kids to and over and And it was great they have free wagon rides and you buy tickets go on little rise but kids loved it and they really do a great job. There's so many pumpkins and you can pick fresh flowers fresh vegetables or fruit but to they have rides for the kiddies not like an amusement park rides slides and stuff balances. I did a post on it. It's all tweeted. That sharon saying we love that place. I guess everybody knows knows Underwood farms well known. It's really to hit another one this week. Here in battle luma. We have just off the highway. One on one a corn maze. And it's a couple of your urinating for two reasons one because everybody slows down to look at the corn mazes. They're driving by on the freeway so there's always a traffic jam but the other reason is it's really easy to get lost and spend hours. This has one two yeah. I like cormet z. Wanted me to give the trick. Yeah yeah i tell my kids this you put your hand against pick left to right whichever you like. Put your hands against the left wall and keep your hand on. that left. won't keep going until you're out done. It works in every maze. That no apology. Anyway that's true. It's oh no. I promise you it's true all right. I'll never lose contact. Keep your hand or just you know if it's corn obviously can't press your hand against feel the corner keep going. It may take you a little longer. But you're gonna follow the wall all the way till you get out. Well we do plan on doing some real travel because case numbers are really going down in most of the states excited for like north dakota. Minnesota was looking at the california. The down florida. They're down is running ads on the football and baseball games to say. Come to california. Please definitely i mean. California has so much to offer. Its i mean. Obviously i live here. It's the best date but Also hawaii is down in my sources. Tell me that the governor might be making announcement soon saying that. They're welcoming travelers back. If as long as they're fully vaccinated. Yeah that's the key. And can you. And i you know i was on. Cbs la yesterday. Doing a hit on holiday travel. And i was doing some searches for fares for holiday for thanksgiving. You know how much it cost to go to hawaii the day before thanksgiving how much ninety five dollars what 'cause nobody goes to hawaii for thanksgiving. I don't know if you go the week before it's eighty dollars. I'm like it costs more for a taxi to the airport. That's true You know. I'm trying to talk my wife into going away. She's like i don't know you. Traditionally i know have gone a couple of times a year every year. Right for sure. We always for new year's and we'd go once went around that mean. We live relatively close of five hour flight. Time to go love hawaii but you know if you are traveling for the holidays. Now is the time to book. I mean united airlines said december. They're predicting december is going to be. The busiest air travel month in two years. It almost two years so even bullets simpsons even before low even before the pandemic. Yes they're saying almost two year. So i'm not sure exactly what they're talking. Because there's this pent-up demand we've all been people want to get together and most importantly people are vaccinated and the cova cases are going down so if they continue to go down you're gonna see people are going to start traveling like myself and with my kids so there's not going to be enough flights but right now they're so cheap you can go. La to new york for one fifty eight for thanksgiving the week before seventy dollars. So this is a time to use your vacation days or or work remotely This is. I always wanted to say this. It's safe to fly. The even is always has because they use could filters fresh air unless the person next to you has kobe right. But so how many airlines requiring vaccines aren't they. They are so know. I have friends that feel safer. Flying internationally order destinations like hawaii that require people to be vaccinated or to do a test before because the chances are sitting someone sitting next year having gobert a slim and by the way this is a long holiday weekend the numbers yesterday went up a hundred thousand people over a hundred thousand people from the week earlier. Hundred and fifty thousand so it's two point. Almost two point two million people went out yesterday and that lee cow is a lot for this time of year. Now you heard on call a couple of minutes ago. Somebody asked about clear and i. I mentioned that getting on the My embarrassment but you know you use clear right or no. of course you know when you're traveling especially during covert and you wanna avoid lines. The one of the biggest lines is security is true either fly off peak times or get clear where you can just they walk to the front of the line and better you get to go through. There was what was embarrassing. Because like excuse me celebrity coming through or something. I dunno felt weird. People who don't mind. Did i the first time i did. It felt like that you get used to it. The first time. I saw someone do that. I was like what are they doing. And how do i get it. And so i looked into it so i think it's also a good selling point for them but canada by the way this week made huge news saying that can require every single person traveling canadian or not to be fully vaccinated on trains planes. Starting october thirtieth eighty nine percent of their population who are eligible to get vaccinated. Have at least one dose so and they say by the end of november. There's no excuses. No taking cove negative test to show you have to be fully vaccinated. The travel and it will be interesting to see if other countries follow. I think australia new zealand. My and there's also a chance of the usa. Might what if somebody sent me an email saying but what about people who for health reasons can't get vaccinated or religious reasons. Campus the backseat due to health reasons. Health reasons for sure they have to exempt the religious reasons. I don't think they will. Yeah so you should check before you fly before you buy get it like you know. A lot of people take advantage of things like with flying with pets. They would say that their dog has a service animal when it really wasn't would ruin it for everyone else so people who really did have these Health problems or religious reasons. Everyone just started saying what. I have religious reasons to it. So they're i think they're going to do away with that. Yeah yeah or make stricter. I don't know how they're going to do it. But also if you're thinking about getting a hotel hotels and in house rentals are definitely going up in price if you can even get them for the holidays so start going after it now and. I don't know how much time we have how much time we got a you and me. Yeah oh our time is ticking. Down one minute and forty five seconds. I'll talk about it next week. Long time in radio. I wrote a post just ragging on travel and leisure which i do love but they put instagram post up this morning. Saying you know here's how you get. Upgraded is by dressing nicely and that couldn't be any further from the truth wall. You'll dress nicely. Let's put you in first. Yes so i wrote a post on the actually the ways that you can get upgraded and In this oh you know. Obviously bring a box of candy now. That's that's just be nice. They won't upgrade you for that they used to not anymore And actually dressing nice twenty years ago before the computers vulgar. Them's or before the computer systems. All automated now. Is that what. You're saying now automated. Then you know what you look like care and all the employees are now accountable so although friends you point out and you can get kicked off flight for being too smelly you can. I've actually had someone sitting ex meet. Honestly it was so bad to rose around me. We held oh whole time though and the flight attendants. Why didn't you tell me before we took off. We would have kicked them off so it's hard to kick them off once the planes in the air. Yes donny jet if you want to read this article actually this is good. Ten ways to get upgraded do not include dressing up. And there's a lovely picture of johnny and his wife natalie sitting in baby blue first class seats. Johnny jet dot com is the website sign up for his free travel newsletters including his airfare news literature. Great follow me on instagram and twitter and join him every week. Right here on the tech guy. Thank you johnny thank you. Can you guess the airline. I don't know the baby blue. I don't know. Is it toyota. And you're having a delicious cream of potato soup or something. It looks quite delicious. Disease wise korean in k. L. or korean is their grand. Yeah we're flying toronto to soul man and then We went to bali day or two later. But it's interesting because they don't. There's not a lot of privacy. A lot of first class seats will have partitions around. You like correct. This is This this picture is on our honeymoon. So it's eight nine years ago but she doubtless awfully happy. That explains it so. I was just looking at flights to hawaii. Because i said listen. I said it's eighty dollars each way to my wife's like i'm not flying coach with the kids right now so i looked at first class on united on the seven fifty seven. Polaris which seven fifty. Seven the triple seven three hundred. Which took and she's like you know the problem is. These seats are too too big and too divided. We're you can't have the little kids right next to you. We were very disappointed. I must say on. You loved it. Well because at least and i couldn't hold hands. Yes so that's what my wife's worried about with the kids. Yeah if you have little kids who would be really hard. I love polaris. But you've everybody's isolated so there's no i guess there is. There are two to buy two seats. Or they're all one by one. No they are one to one so they are in the middle or actually closer together than the others. Yeah but we were in a tube but there's this big thing between us right now. I have to reach over the partition. You lower you can lower. But there's still a like you know. It's like front-seat distance at least and i'd like to cuddle can't cut it no cuddling and if you have kids it'd be problem. I know well this summer. We flew jfk lax. And i use miles to fly for us. This is the definition of a i. You know we can't fly us because the nanny can't reach the children well. My wife is not like that. New orleans is she really doesn't want people people around my kids know and i don't blame her but we flew the summer jfk to lax. And on the way there we flew business class. So it's too and to you know it's fine but on the way back. It was cheaper to fly first class using miles and coach. So i bought i bought first class. So it's one in one and jacket off the plane. And he's like i hated that. Please don't make me ever do that again. i couldn't. i couldn't hug mama. Oh portia jackie only known but was three or four. He just turned five. But if you're five that's a quiet. He watched his buddy. He loves to cuddle. Best thing in the world. Yeah so anyway. Johnny do you. You're not wearing headphones. No got gotta wear headphones dude. Because if if you can hear me. I can hear without headphones. I can hear me without headphones. You know what. I'm saying really never have speakers open. Turn off your speakers. no. I don't have the speakers on i had. I just had these near me. Yeah but if they're loud enough that you can hear them they're going right kicker phone okay so you saw it. But i've been doing this for for years. Maybe just turned him up this time. okay. I'm yeah but there's a little bit echo comes through because i can hear him. I see it's okay to wear headphones. It's manley it's not emasculating. Don't feel like you're the news the news a lot and they don't like it when i had the microphone or the. How did the today show. They can hide the microphone. I said i can put it down here. Said we don't care how you sound. We care how you look but by the way. This is all changing. I noticed more and more. You'll see people on cnn. Now with headphones and microphones they realize you know you gotta have decent sound right well. The guy yesterday on the producer for cbs la yesterday like keep the microphone. It sounds so much better. Yes good. Johnny take care leo laporte tech. I eight eighty eight. Ask leo kenney on the line from cotton town tennessee. Hello kenny o. Leo is feedback on your show again. He's cotton eyed joe from cotton town. Is that where he's from. I wish i could tell you. I don't see him out there looking at the view your tennessee. So i can't tell. Tennessee is such a beautiful state. It's so gorgeous. i'm jealous. She got the mountains right there. Yeah that's right and we know there. Well actually we've got a company coming over from and reminds me the giants dodgers games orca park. Oh yes force. Oh yes we We had a wonderful time last night at oracle park. I must say so. What can i talk to you again. Kenny i understand it but it was definitely a huge huge game for sure and seeing. I will say this seeing that ball. Hit out the ballpark and then it bounce off and then the sponsor the water like it when you know when they first build that ballpark I was working at the san francisco giants radio station in town. So i'd go to many the games and they had a they have a counter up there. That says how many splash hits chris. It was barry. Bonds in the park was built four barry bonds because he was a pull hitter and he would hit in the water. Every darn time was so cool so cool anyway. But that's enough of that enough about me about you. yes well. I'm calling in regards to a question in regards to antivirus software for mac. Says you know From the first time. I call dogs you months ago. I do have a mac and lately. There was an issue involving my antivirus software toys. norton and norton three sixty where after recent software update with machoism big sur. Eleven point six The apple just simply will not open it. Just we'll just kind of get click for new for seconds and disappear shock. What a shock. Apples blocking it probably. i do not personally believe that you need antivirus at all on amac Truthfully i don't think you need one on windows because windows comes with one. Apple's done a lot of really smart things. They don't technically have an antivirus on there but they have a lot of anti malware technologies that are running behind the scenes in fact if they're so few mac viruses anyway but if one comes out apple can update a malware removal tool. That's invisible on the mac and you'll never even see the problem that i don't think you need it as long as you don't do if you don't have a teenager who is going to sketch sites and you yourself are relatively you know circumspect. I don't think An antivirus is doing you any favors And i think a lot of times what's happening and i suspect this is what's happening with your norton. Is that the because antivirus one of the reasons i don't like anti-viruses is in order for them to work. They have to burrow their way deep into your operating system right. They have to watch things. They're not normal user programs which means if they're not perfectly crafted they themselves can introduce security flaws into your system. Both norton and mcafee have done that on windows So it's a it's problematic to say the least and my guess. Is you know maybe for some reason that norton is trying to do something. The apples blocking. Maybe it's just damaged. But i wouldn't worry about it. I don't think you need it. I take it off. Yeah i've done my research on that. I was even reading on it. And that's basically what it kind of boils down to is that it's like you just said they're doing something in apple's not real appreciative of that so basically you're saying just they're not blocking naturally specifically saying oh you have norton low. Don't run there may be as a thirty two bit program and maybe that apple's saying look they're trying to change the kernel. Both microsoft and apple have recently said you know programs are not allowed to burrow their way in as much and it could be that that you know so all of that is is by way of not necessarily digging norton but just protecting you from other dangerous programs. I don't think you needed. I think you can. I think he can do without. It's unnecessary expense. Any programs you install it. You don't need a always introduce security risks if they're flawed especially anti-viruses and browsers and things like that anything that goes online And they also can slow your computer down Again a necessarily yeah. You're absolutely right on that. I've noticed that i did remove Norton from at least a mac. And i still have it for windows just because why not just And it's a running a lot faster on just on the aca west side of things. I think i'll definitely just try to keep without it and thankfully i don't have a teenager anything to worry about. So it's sometimes like on our kids computer virus. 'cause you know he's but i want this plugin for minecraft I know it's from hacker. Dr you but it's a good. It's a good plugin and so for that reason. You know it's probably a good idea but for you. I think you know you're fine. You obviously aren't going to do anything to sketch okay So kind of keeping within the subject. I do not recommend any for let's say smartphones or tablets. No definitely don't need it for that Mobile operating systems written much later than mac. Os and windows and were written in a world in which this was a definite threat so they are much better protected I you know mel where the only maui gets on an iphone is through the app store. Apple's works really hard to prevent it if they find when they kill it. Yeah you're gonna hear about them But they're but they're i let me put it this way the the flaws that governments are using to break in iphones. Maybe you've heard about the story of pegasus from ns. Oh group are so rare and so valuable these governments. They're worth millions of dollars and they a hacker doesn't have access to them couldn't afford them even if they could get them And and they're immediately plugged up as soon as they're discovered that's why they're so valuable. You don't have to worry. Unless you are a dissident at in turkey or a journalist in bahrain. You know if you're not if you know if you're a us citizen. I think you're and you're not working for a three letter agency. Don't worry all right all right. Well that's good advice. There never really stopped them. Think about the same rule actually is on desktops p. Consider carefully what you you know. And if and if it's you know russian wallpaper for very good for everybody his picture of penguin don't you know don't fall for that okay. That's that's putin penguin penguin hispanic good picture of putting on horse. You will love it. He's manly you. Don't want that for many for many reasons. no no. He's good looking men fighting bear. You want these stunt you. Yeah i would stay away from those. I think most people are not going to run into At least on mobile. And on max or not gonna run to win is a little bit different. There's so many there's more than a billion windows users there's so many out there and they're such a variety of ways you can attack it. Maybe that's a little bit different but But absolutely you don't even packer mobile all right all right wheel. Well i really appreciate the advice Thank you very always a pleasure. Actually good call and this sounds like a real good show so far and i hope it continues for the rest of the way tenny. You're very sweet thank you. I really appreciate it He's cotton town was named. I looked it up on wikipedia named after a revolutionary war general and It's got population of three hundred. Yeah now that sounds like a nice place to live. I bet the internet access isn't super great. The only problem in this country. You can live somewhere gorgeous. Beautiful wonderful but don't get online. That's where i think what you musk doing with. Starlink is very interesting. It's coming out of beta by the way This month in most of the united states which means You may be able to get it. Although he tweeted something interesting this week. He said it's designed for low density usage so we can't sell as many we can't everybody can't use starlink. The satellite internet it's limited in terms of how many people per square mile. You can can have well. I wish he'd told us that ahead of time. Putting twelve thousand satellites up there and only a few of us can use. It has not far from ideal eight. Ask me. we're gonna take a break. Di di di di di di di di now. I have to do a house ad. So i turn off the sound from premia. I switch over to the second. Been so there's two bins of lower thirds. There's the show lower thirds. Here's over here On this and then over on the right there's been too which is ads. And now i can pull up that lower. The tech guy. Podcast supported by. At and t. active armor. We rely so much on our phones. These days we're always on them whether it's live streaming content catching up with family on weekly video calls or watching your favorite podcasts. There's no room for fraud calls thankfully. At makes customers security a priority helping block those pesky calls. It's not complicated. At and t. Active armor twenty four seven proactive network security and fraud call blocking the help stop threats and no extra charge. I love it. Compatible devices service required visit att dot com slash active armor for details but but added a bump. Yep gotta do all these switches and clicks. This is the The so there's a special mix for on on Preview nine there's only eight normally cameras but there's a ninth preview and this is the special mix seven is the Chat room and eight is. I'm sorry seven is this over. The shoulder shot in is the chat room so i could change it. I can change it right but it's always eight seven and then actually when we get callers on i do change it. I put the clock up there. And i put their picture up there their skype up there. Yeah so that that's for when Scott and Sam wanna talk to the chat room. I put them up there. But now you can see this. Mike is so well-dressed effect. I had to start wearing jackets because a him him. It's his fault he he can hear that he's hearing all this stuff He's got little he likes to wear a little Fooled me next. We're a little earpiece. You can't even see it and no. I'm not quitting. I'm not retiring. But i thought it'd be good to have a a youthful voice on the show anyway somebody to help and it would be really good for a on on the team who can also do the show and you know. Someday i'm buses going to hit me and and when that bus hits me michael be ready to leap into action and he. Well says he won't be driving the bus so cicis right and actually. I think it'd be nice to have a little. Oh there's putin right in his I wish it was a penguin. Can someone in the is that real really riding a bear. And i don't think so come on. He's an even moving on top of it. i think they just took photoshop. Oh you're right. Oh you're so right. He's like a little statue of me that you have put his picture. Nixed coming at lennon will be there. Well hey hey. Hey how are you today. Leo laporte here the tech times. How computers the internet home theater photography smartphones smart watches the gives whiz dick debartolo coming up with some junkie gadget. He thinks is the greatest thing ever. Don't tell him. I didn't think it was so great. He's he i. I don't have the heart to tell him. I think he knows. Actually the gives was just around the corner. Meanwhile eight asks. Leo more of your calls me on the line from denver colorado the mile high city. Hello naomi oh. I'm you know what's the matter deo me. I don't Doorbell and security camera right. He knew i advertise. Yes way back. Four amazon bottom. There's a long history by the way of companies buying ads on our shows and then getting bought by amazon. I'm not saying that if you buy an ad on my show you're gonna give up on amazon but it wouldn't hurt so what happened so you got the ring doorbell. I have the ring doorbell and it starts almost every week. It's too cold. You have to be gets denver. Those with the coldest it's been in the last month has been forty in the morning. You know at thinks it's too cold a well any exposed is it out like Is do hitting it. No no no. It's on your front porch right. It's a little bit protected in there. Yeah hardwired to that's what's upsetting about it. You know because the battery powered ones are a little more sensitive to cold because batteries don't like cold and so i could see how they'd say brings got a whole page. Charon just gave it to me cold weather and battery-powered ring doorbells. Maybe your ring doesn't know that it's his power it's connected. This is what this is what they say they say if it gets below thirty six degrees. The battery may not hold a charge as effectively. If it's freezing thirty two degrees it may not charge at all. Oh here's the thing. There is a battery in yours and even the hard ones and it does. even hardwired. Configurations may not charge the battery. But that's not a problem because you're not really using the battery that's just so your doorbell ring. If the power goes out. I guess that's what i thought you know and i thought it would continually recharged like. Does your phone plugged in whatever anyway so then. The face plate has crack too. Because it's so. I called grin By the way they're not a sponsor anymore so say anything you want okay and they said oh well it's out of warranty like i said i've been a customer since two thousand seventeen that account rescue and That's 'cause you bought it from the original company and now you're talking to amazon by the way. Yeah yeah well anyway. it's Every week i have to plug the battery and so it you know what ni- cads or whatever they yeah yeah they're cheap. Batteries are not good batteries. Doctor moms tell me the chairman actually that even with a wired one. The pat battery is powering. the doorbell. it's just that the wire goes the battery to charge. I did not know that. Anyway i am more than upset with them. And i was wanting to know mike by the way. Says he'd be glad you a sweater for your doorbell. Mike is quite the accomplished knitter. I believe you're very good with textiles. Aren't you yeah knitting and crochet. Yes oh yeah you need for your doorbell crocheting. A little dog with a red nosed. Cute adorable so cute different seasonal. So what would you like to do. Would you like to replace it. Yeah i know you've been talking about nest. And using s. I actually replaced my ring with the nest more because i wanted to review the nest than that. I didn't like the ring. We were happy with the ring. But then that's nice because it integrates with all the other stuff so if you have google home lobs and stuff like that. I'm cody google. Then get too low doorbell. I never had problems with the ring. So i can't say that you know. The nest is better in denver. I don't know but i've been very happy with it. If you wanna spend less money wise which is a really. I think an interesting company. They're up in seattle They make smart stuff and they their specialty is the same stuff for less so I never used it. Can't say if it's great or not but they also make a wise doorbell. Let me just see what the prices talks about wise. Yeah he loves wise fifty dollars fifty dollars. But i bet you that one is all battery. I bet you that because why one of the things with wise does is make. Make this stuff kind of like so. You don't have to have any like. I have a wire and actually i because i have a wired doorbell like you. I kind of liked the wired. I'm very happy with the hello doorbell. There are some yeah the nest there are some things to know about. For instance. It has face recognition. So my google home hub. Would somebody rings. the doorbell. Says somebody's at the front door. Which is good. I'm not gonna miss it but it's kind of weird also says somebody just pissed picked up a package and if it knows the face in theory although it's never done this it would say lisa just piss picked up the package or a stranger just picked up the package so it's kind of it's got a in it which is interesting. The reason i mention an is some people are concerned in fact when you first set it up even says if this isn't allowed in your state don't turn it on. I think it is allowed in colorado. But i know chicago has some very strict and maine have strict laws about that kind of thing so maybe some states where you can't use the face recognition. I've also noticed is not super accurate or actually my case even though i've gone through every picture because it says we don't know who this was. Who was it well. That was michael. Who is that. That was michael's friend that was Joey joey who's so i tell them. Everybody still doesn't say joey at the front door. I wish it would. I wanted to say that. I think it's supposed to say that. Also i was up. I've been upset with the Description stuff you know. Just after after after is Nets have to have subscription. Or can you. Yes that's one advantage. Wise has not only is it sixty bucks. But you don't have to subscribe to anything. Does it work. What chips so with nath or a dedicated drive and what you don't. Mike hosts are smart. Today as show was an expert on all his are you. Yes i was gonna say. Listen to you talking about using drives and everything to back up your yours. Pretty impressive best wise. I think it's even worth the experiment There are multiple options with the wise cameras. You get free. Cloud storage with no subscription with. That's nice But many of the device. I'm trying to see if the the new doorbell has it. They almost all devices. Have an option for us d. card. I think that the doorbell might be one of the only ones. But i did have another thought for you. Those little put a little mike rusty card in there other cameras and it records locally so you don't even need to use the cloud which is really nice exactly. I wonder if it's the wind. Chill that could be causing the issue a lot if you and i know this kind of sound silly but having a little Sort of blocker around sheltered is it. Is it out in the in the cold wind. Now you know it's a colorado. It's faces east which in the morning at all blurred out. Because the stunt sometime you it might be. It's the extremes are what's and it's concerned about the battery. I can't tell you that nest or wise will be better. I don't know The nice thing about the wise is sixty bucks so it's fairly cheap to try it. They do have a buck. Ninety nine subscription they call cam plus which gives you real time alerts. This is something you get with your ring with a hello that you have to pay for with the wise so that when it sees people packages it will. It will text your phone without it. You'll just get motion detection the y. says it's ip sixty five weather resistant built to endure the elements protects this nobel from rain snow in sun. So at least they're least they're mentioned it. It's snowy like in march. We had four feet of snow. Young holy cow. Holy cow well. I can't promise it's going to. It's denver proof naomi but at least it's inexpensive and we've had good results with wise stuff. I as inexpensive as they are. It's not they're not cheap. They really make some good stuff. I think they realized that there was a big markup. And all this stuff. And i said you know what we can do better. We can sell this for you know a little bit more than it costs us a lot more. That causes another problem with net with the three is i have you know the google Net router everything you know through the house because the big house puppets concrete and better anyway If you you have to specifically push it to one specific router it can't do the rotating like it's i'm walking through the house with the phone you know with my cell phone and playing games or whatever it can go from one router to another router to another route. Wait a minute. You're not carrying the doorbell around. Obviously the doorbells always online router. Is you have to be on the same router as the doorbell. Something wrong with your wifi configuration. That should matter at all. No it's the. The ring told me that. Because i was having problems with the you know the layton stan thanks. Oh well it's because you have the The right to the specific router. It can't jump from rallied around. It sounds made up. I think i may be wrong. But i think the ring phones home and then the home phones you that it doesn't go direct. It's not peer to peer. In other words it calls the home office and says hey the door bells ringing and then the home office sent pins you over the internet so it shouldn't matter i have two of the extenders you know because the houses will extenders could cause issues but not for the reason they described neck the ring to one of the specific extenders which has to be specifically connected to one of your Google routed nice. Last kinda techy or yeah i imagine someone that's not quite as techy business work we get. You know. I hear calls all the time especially about ring about latency and a doorbell. That doesn't notify you that it's that somebody's there for thirty or forty seconds. You're going to get there and they're going to be long gone. Person goes in their rings. The doorbell down I i i'm gonna have to look at it as if that sounds very unusual. Normally the way a device like this would work is it would paying their servers and then their servers would ping your phone because it has to work when you're not home right. Yes that's what i would think but it does it work when you're not home it. Does i see it but about a minute later. Well i know it's slow. I don't maybe they built in some sort of magical property. I don't know how that would work. That doesn't add hawk network peer to peer. Some sort of weird setup. Just forget that now recognizes humans walking. That's that everybody's doing that now Yeah i you know. I'm going to have to look into this You have a mesh network. Because you're using google wifi right correct. And they're and not really extenders additional Google wifi hubs units right spread around and then it goes been would go to the extenders then go to the mesh crowder. Didn't go to my phone is. Am i collecting that though No i unless they have something weird going on Because remember you have to leave the house and still hear. The doorbell rang. Which means that the normal way for any of these devices to work most iot devices worked like this they connect to a server. Not you and then the server ping's your network or your phone and so That is a little latent so they may have some sort of special facility. That i don't know about the only thing i'm aware of which very common without devices we talk about. All the time is the ring needs a two point four gigahertz connection and we'll be baffled by the five gigahertz band. Sometimes the way the why google works is both have the same name so there are work arounds including taking your ring doorbell for a walk because the five g. doesn't travel as far as the she never mind. Forget i said I don't know what rings doing. I'm gonna look it up and see if i could find out That's bizarre naomi. That's not normal. Iot devices almost always connect not to you directly through your wifi router to to a server which then pinks you through your wifi. So it shouldn't matter where you are. What about the nest is. Is it a pretty good about backing up. I mean all of these have some latency but I think google's got a little bit is is a little bit better on this. And i've been very happy with the hello doorbell it. Somebody comes presses. The doorbell here the time. Because it's wired so i hear that right away and then i will hear my nest device hub will say someone's at the front door and immediately show a picture and that's about three seconds later dogs and limit. That doorbell goes man. You don't even need this because you've got doggies the does is saying was a couple of. Let's go let's go. Yeah google's official suggestion is to walk away from the router. Thank you google mica. Sergeant is looking up. The you have the google support document. And that's what they say to do. That's so frustrating because euro for example. Let you go in and say you used to be. You'd have to call euro and euro support tech would say okay. I'm gonna turn off the five five radio now parrot. once you paired it. It stays pair to the two point. Four gigahertz now. They've added a switch. Thank goodness in the software. Google says we don't have a way to do that. Because two point four g. travels farther than five gene. Have to get far enough away so you don't see the five g. and you get the to boy for that's crazy. Talk especially with the doorbell. Leo laporte teke so you got to move away move next door. Set up the doorbell parrot. Then come back. I noticed laura's gonna yell at me. We think the ad so you see what happened there. Because i waited too long. Laura has to go to the break without me doing the ad because otherwise there'll be zero time after the break so this is the this is where leo's been bad but i was having so much fun with you nail me. I didn't want to break so i'll do the ad. what should i do. laura time and the third segment. okay. Tom sorry about that. So i have to live. Reads every hour They're supposed to be the first break and before the end of the hour. But if i miss it we have to juggle it. Because there's a recorded rita's well. There's really only one to advertisers on the whole show. No i'm just kidding but it seems like it. anyway naomi I think i personally just between you me. And the millions of people listening. I like the home best. I've been very happy with that. I haven't tried the wise. But we've had some the i call the home it's the nest. Yeah they call it the nest home doorbell. Yeah i use a lot of wisest cameras outdoors. Indoor fantastic seven tried the doorbell. Yeah exactly looking at the wise ones for the corner of the house. We have critters coming in all the time. The twin trash pandas and everything I i'll be honest and it's expensive because you have to buy a subscription all at least will now has role those all up into a single subscription but you still have to pay whatever it is five bucks a month for this seven bucks. A month i have nest cameras everywhere Around the house. And i like them because they're plugged in and they're always recording I can go back. And i've done this. You know lisa will go and check the cats and and if we're travelling we can go online and look at recordings from earlier. I just i think the nest. If since you have a lot of google stuff. Naomi i think go. All nest is not a bad way to go. It's more expensive. That's the drawback o on your wages cameras to your doorbell. So i don't use Cartman doorbell yeah. I've I've got a the ring People camera is what i use. That's a good idea. It's not goes on exactly. So i could just unscrew the people put that in. They don't actually sell that anymore. They remember But it's not cold enough here to where that's an issue It because it is battery powered. And i do regularly have to switch in a new battery for it. I recommend wired as much as possible as well because the ability to tat tag motion and to detect motion. All those kinds of tools are a lot better on something. That's receiving power at all times versus the other ones where it's sort of having a wake up and then go back to the wise know the wise. They save money by because they're battery. They can't always be on but they also save money. 'cause they don't have to record it the internet all the time. So why you picked up the Chip every day. or how. it's just there. It'll it'll override it as fills up so it's just there so if you ever a recording you can go to the chip and take it out and i found takes a long time for it to fill up. They also they have a base station that you can play around washington and yeah record there as well. Okay on your smartphone. I gotta run leo laporte. The tech guy eight eight. Ask leo thomas on the line from carson california. Hello tom hello. How're you doing today. I'm well how are you fine. Just fine got a quick question I believe at one time. I heard either on your show or from somewhere else. That windows eleven is going to require you to log in with a microsoft account logging. Yes so what happens if you have a business with six computers. You'd have to have a microsoft account for each computer. Depends on how you've licensed windows. If you have a enterprise license for windows no if you have six individual computers yes That's an interesting question. I don't know no you don't because i'm logged into multiple windows computers or the same microsoft account. You do not. So you'd have to set up one microsoft accountant and each person would have to use that account. You could use a dummy account you could just. They're free to make so you make one. That's their quote business account that no one uses for anything. Okay and that kind of leads me to my second question I drive by the way if you buy windows. Eleven pro you. They do allow you to make it a local account and not a microsoft account. Just yeah just to be complete if you buy home version. You have to log in so subscribe to i drive yeah and then Are fine sponsor yes. That's why i use a curious Sponsor that on we used to. We used to do carbonite ads. yeah. I drive a little better. Do you like it better Well right now. I'm not sure what's going on. I i use carbonite for many years and really liked it. Used it multiple times You know lobster shrimp guys. I think make a good product. David friend is an old dear friends. So so yeah you know. Replace hard drives Buy a new computer and transfer everything over and all very simple with carbonite with i drive. I got a failure on a backup. And we're you know in and working through it with the i-drive tech support. People is because of one dr. Gosh yeah you don't wanna you don't wanna mix and match. I gotta take a break. I'll talk to you off the air. Not because i'm trying to hide anything but because of that magic sound but hang on. Okay leo laporte the guy. So that's an interesting conundrum. So one of the things one drive does which i find very annoying is it. It doesn't merely mirror your drive chat as you drive. So you're actually not saving stuff to locally. You're saving at two one drive. Was that the problem. That is the problem. And here's here's what kind of led to this. And i'll try and talk fast because you've got four minutes eighteen seconds so With this business we have purchased. We purchased two computers Set up weren't sure what they're going to be used so set them up basically the same all that then down the line we purchased a couple more and set them up. Say all set up under the same name and everything And little did we know at the time about one drive. So we're humming along happily. You know just using them and saying okay we need to do. Leo's has and have i drive so we purchased. I drive and you know. I installed it on each of the computers. Couple were older computers for them or or newer And everything you know. Installed them Then i get this failure and ironically it did not fail on on one of those four it. it worked fine and doesn't show. I drive and i don't know why maybe it's something in the configuration but Then i did a little reading on it. And i've tried something On one of them and it seems to have worked. There's a way you can go in and I think it's a right. Click on a. I forget exactly now how he did it but it says to to leave that file on the computer and when i did this that one no longer i drive can only so. This is windows fault because it's not. They're not making it clear. One drive is taken the file and put it in the cloud and unless you leave it on the computer there's nothing for i-drive to back up. Yeah it's like the old you know in the beginning where you had a dumb terminal connected to the server. Basically windows leaves a show. Effectively is an alias or shortcut on the computer. But i i drive. I guess is fooled by says. Oh i got the file. it's not. it's a soft link and it's useless because what you want is the file which is stored on wonder now the good news. Is you still have a copy on one drive. So you're not. I look but it's yeah so you need to tell one drive. No stop it stores stuff locally right so you figure that out. I'm glad yeah. Well that's one of them. So if i go in and do that i. I guess. My question would be if i go in and do that. Think computers and get them all doing that. I go in and turn off one. Dr but she then you know my other my other my other. You can tell one drive. I think what you want is to. I think the best way to do this is to tell one drive. Or maybe supremacy microsoft office by default backs up to the cloud to you know saves to the cloud. So that's the problem I think you can tell one drive. No backup. Don't you can make backup but don't take away the low copy. I think you've probably could say that. Globally in your one drive settings. I would guess because see the problem with somebody goes in and goes to look at their files to find something they wanna look. Why do i have all this stuff here. That's not mine. i honestly think it's confusing and tickets. Windows made it confusing. I when i first did it. It was like yeah. Why is all this stuff on this computer. This is something from the other computer. So i you know i is. You know a lot of labor. I could just going in and and say to a A drive that particular files for a computer and then just Read redo the computer you know re or at the factory put the applications. I would say anything. That's in one drive is backed up. it's just not back to i-drive and then so you can have both just to understand. They're mutually exclusive. It's easy it's one or the other. you can't do both gotta run pan. There's just never enough time. What are we doing. We're cutting the cake. Is this cut the cake. I always get that wrong. what are we doing. We're picking up the pieces professor. Laura our musical director finding the best tones from the sixty seventies eighties nineties. Tens and today is that what they say on the radio. Now how did they say they say the two thousand well. Let's say they say the best songs from the nineties and then what the two thousands and today ninety two now is they say. Yeah so confusing this whole thing with the two thousand. I don't know what you call it. The twenty s that The odds. I don't like the odds. Kim sorry can't on the line from huntington beach california high. Can't you very patient. Thank you for hanging on thank you. You won't have to worry about the three thousand just like me. golly. I'm looking at william shatner though. I don't know if you saw the interview on cnn man ninety years old. He's smarter better looking than than you know. He's in great shape. It's kinda cool happened. Kirk dads is turned ninety. Yeah mine's eighty-eight so yes i know. Yep what can i do for. You can't old-timer home on the find out. I've always i've always been thinking about. This is whether you could use one of the current or the newest apple watches. Oh we lost him that boom sound. Mike means something happened. I didn't do you saw. I didn't touch wasn't me wasn't me so let me see Maybe maybe Maybe kim remember is camera you still there. What was it that he wanted to know. Wants to see if he can use an apple watch with an ipad and not have an iphone though. The answer is no apple. Thank you kim. I'm glad you took notes. I'm sorry we lost him. I don't know some kind of snow. If either of these are him he might have hung up or you go ahead and get those. But i can answer that question. So apple has added a really nice feature for the apple. Watch which allows you to set up an apple. Watch for somebody else with your iphone so if you could do this if somebody knows has an iphone you could set up the apple-watching if you get the apple watch with cellular. It doesn't need a phone even to take to answer. Well no but if the phone rings it's gonna bring your watch. No you don't want to do that. I guess no apple has made it that you have to have an iphone. If you're gonna use apple watch or if you wanted to set up An apple watch for a kid or your parents or something like that. You could use your phone to do that. But there's still going to want to be part of your life right because they can't take calls all all it'll be able to do is the health stuff and then i don't know what happens Does it record the activities to mom and dad's phone. I guess it does someday. Everybody thinks apple will do a standalone version of the apple. Watch but that day has not yet come. it is very much The watch is very much with. I think of it as a sidecar in like the motorcycle. Sidecars sidecar for your phone and you really have to have the phone a lot of the processing power. A lot of the information is on the phone. Even if you have an apple watch it has wi fi. But even if you have the one with cellular You still need an iphone at least to set it up. Mike is fat. You found a what is what is what just as support article that talks about setting up watching it mentions the even if you set it up for a family member. There's still that connection so yeah you would literally have to borrow an iphone from to set up an apple watch and then they would still be connected exactly. See your messages and all that stuff. Yeah you don't want that so no unfortunately I'm trying to think of basically the way to go is to get a fit bit a or a garment or one of the other kind of smart watches. That aren't tied to a four. Exactly fits our great people love fitbit and they do. It depends what you want it for if you want it for health or or whatever but Yeah an apple watch to. This day is an accessory for an iphone. And it's you know at some point. They may change their tune on that. But not yet maria san diego your next. Leila port the tech. I'm maria leo. Thank you thinking. My call I need help. I am an older and i m going to buy a some schooling and i understand all scary. Isn't it maria. I have an idea but my question to you is. I want to buy a t mobile. And i don't know I don't understand very well. How hot spot works. But what i need is this. I wanted to see if it is possible to you The infant internet from my phone into my laptop. If that is possible doesn't that's exactly what a hotspot. Yes that's what a hotspot does so in order to do this. You need to get a phone. That had that capability all smartphones to. So you're i if you're in the market for a smartphone. Basically what happens is a smartphone is connected to the internet through the cellular connection right. So if it's t. mobile through their five g. or four g. towers your lt towers. It gets data. You'll go into the settings on the phone and you say. I want to share that with another device. I wanna create. What's called a wifi hotspot. That phone is now a wi fi router. It gets us internet from the cellular connection and then looks like a wifi base station to anything else in the vicinity. Has a a name which you can give you a default name which is usually like numbers and letters and not very clear but you could say maria phone if you want and then they give you a password which and they give you the fall but you can change that to something. It's easy to remember. Then when you open up your laptop and you look for wi fi access points. You'll see marie. his phone. You click that and type in the password which you either the one that they gave you by default or the one provided. And now you're getting your internet on the laptop through the phone to the cell towers now. There are a couple of things you should know. You're going to have to pay extra for that. Usually so t mobile typically around ten bucks a month plus the data you use and remember cell phone. Data is more expensive than your home internet data. So if it's fine for a little bit of surfing and stuff but if you've got a kid who wants to use a laptop for zoomed for school for instance that's gonna cost and up costing more because you sell data's expensive i talk so So it Do you advice me too. I have infant had come internet constantly Because he'd what's going to expensive and he was giving me too little and The slow and so. I thought time went to buy a some phone that we'll have that maybe i can use that real daily and it'll be faster nowadays as long as you're near a t. Mobile tower and. I think you probably are. It should be very fast. Might be one hundred megabits or more download. It'll be very quick but it may end up costing more because they don't want for the south for the data because but you can look at t. mobile plans and and find one that gives you you know. They don't charge the same for hotspot data as for on your phone data because they know people will do this and you know they're smart. They don't want you to get away with it now team. You should investigate T mobile does have a home internet service. That works the same way. But it's cheaper because it's designed for home internet service and doesn't require a phone. Yes and that's my best. That's one of the things that i need to on Not to have An internet in the not to have that in my telephone. I don't mean at home internet. is that right. So you're confusing the so there's the home there's a telephone stuff which is a hot spot. But t mobile now offers home. Internet t. mobile dot com slash. Isp that's less expensive. It's designed for your home. It's not available in every area so you have to go to the site and entering your address but it's fifty bucks a month and it will be faster than almost anything cable depending again. How close you are to petit mobil. Tower that's completely independent. You don't even need a phone for that so it's two different. It's two different sayings. Pardon me if you probably have homing donate with them. Which costs fifty dollars a month to nick then. I don't need to buy her spots right no you. Don't you're buying separate product that's not even related to a phone uh-huh okay so so in that case i would only the regular cellphone with regular you've been covering role if you need a cell phone. Yeah but you don't need it for the data so why would need to separate products would put the cellphone right. I need to buy the extra spot. No that's right it's two different. Products is a t. mobile home internet. Which is a separate product. This is where i get confused. Hotspot is an extra a different type of internet but if the connection between the telephone and the computer that's right. It's a connection with cell phone computer some companies don't charge extra for that T mobile if you have. Google phone doesn't charge extra for ages two pens but they will charge you for the data so they don't so some companies will charge you ten bucks a month just to do it just to say. Oh i have the hot spot capability remember. Phone companies are out to get you trying to make money so confusing. I understand your ice fishing for me. I am technological disable. But i did call cricket and created told me. I don't need to buy. But i don't charge. That's right. you still pay for the data. They just remember that data. You're still paying for as if you were using on. The phone makes sense. You just don't have to pay an extra fee to be able to do it. Okay but but not not. Everybody does that. I am assuming Because i had the pants in p. mobile and they have they charge as you said about been dollars extra for hotspot so i am assuming they don't they don't allow to connect the that that to to you locked laptop just from the guy that you have to buy hotspot. Is that correct. That's right it won't have that capability you so Eighties eighties equal to have a as far as a I don't know what what what it is. You got by two megabytes title about those things. But he won't to to the model. That i get if i That in my excuse. Me if i buy a cell phone with data and hot book or is it more that that if i buy a cell phone with that without hut but but i mean to nicoletti more meet more cell phone with hotspot is the most expensive the speed will be the same on either the cell. Phone of the t. mobile home internet because it's the same connection but the t mobile home internet is priced better for that is designed for using more data. The cable internet will probably be. It'll certainly be the fastest and it will probably be around sixty bucks a month pens on. Yeah if you get it from the cable company you getting it from the phone company before were you getting from the phone company before okay. I have to go anyway. I hope i've helped you. Unfortunately i'm out of time. Dick debartolo man's maddest writer and our gizmo wizard hanging doing dickey on doing good sir and you very well very well. i'm excited. I hope you didn't hear what i said about you earlier in the hour. Wait a minute. Just said dixie always trying to get me to buy some junkie gizmos gadgets. Yeah you know what what you may want to see. What i tell you what i tell you. What are you gonna. Yes what do you got. Glad i'm gonna put up my my defenses. Go ahead try. Convince right so i i did not find this catch it. Okay mo- torres. Who's a big fan of this show and of the gives way show found this and he showed. He made a little video for for the kids. Wish oh chad. And i instantly bought them. So this huddle guy. Leo is called the keyhole. Companion ole companion companion. And it's a great way to mount power strips. Anything with the keyhole in it. You know the way palace strips on the back have the little keyhole and they are impossible to screw the screws into the wall and then stick it up there and slide it downs right so you take the pair of these. They go into the keyhole on the back of the power strip and then it sticks there because the spring mode then you take the cap off. Yeah you house up against the wall comes to the little for hot spotting. No no no okay. Okay comes with a little level. You make sure it's straight import you push against the wall and it makes a round circle with an x in the middle and that is exactly where the screw go punches. A hole in your. Oh and then you use your screwdriver your drill to actually put the yes exactly. It mocks the wall exactly where you should be drilling the hole. This is true because you can't use a carpenter's pencil with the power strip because the keells in the back. You can't really you can't do it. And here's where the keyhole on it but but if certain yeah that's that's very difficult to do so Mom mine just came this morning. I already see it locks on so easily to the back of a power strip. Yeah and the fact. I'm figuring make your home. I'm trying to here. You got it so you attach these two to the the little hole where the screen on your power and then you ram the power strip against the wall. No hang on okay where you rams who. Yeah it's not exactly ramming it. You push it up against the wall news inc inside his cabinet Inc that'll make the mark where you're going a little pencil mark. Earning that's a good idea. I'm not sure. I'd go out and buy these for the on one time a year that i might be hanging powers for the twit studio there are staff needs this yes exactly. I'm sure you know here. You know what they do. You want to know what her twit. Yeah but you know what wanted to know how they do this. Because they're trained professionals. They they i'll do this. What a trained professional tell you. What a trained professional does john just told me in my ear. They take they put the powers on the machine and they photocopy the back and then they put they put the photocopy in the wall. Get it just right then. Punch you know the market through the paper. Then they've got it. That's very clever idea. Instead of how much are these things. twenty two dollars okay. I'm just saying there's other policy. Okay all right. No i like it you you bought one. Yeah because i think it's a good idea. But i didn't think now you think jim would be would have told me ahead. Of of course i should. Xerox machine costs thousands of dollars. Money here exact. Probably don't have xerox machine at home. No but a photocopier. i mean my scanner essence. Ganic could do it anywhere. Will united excited. I told you i feel. This is actually really clever. How this happens. Some guy has been doing. This thing has got to be a better way. He invents this thing he probably long sleepless nights many prototypes and so forth and so on and then he says i gotta sell this this brilliant and then he goes and he i don't know what is he doing next to you. Used to be good quirky dot com right and they help you make it. Yes now i guess. Actually you're right. I don't know what you go to chinatown. And because you know you think i'm joking all the all the big foxconn everybody. All the big chinese industrial manufacturers have offices in the cities. And you go. You say i got a thing. I wanna make. Can you make this to say well. You only look at it. Yeah we can make that much twenty dollars. Okay and then you go. They make a prototype. They send it back to you. You're look at it and go. That's good make those make. Thousands of physically have to go overseas. You don't have to go overseas to do. They have not yet something like that. He was all excited. Where's he going to sell these. Ace hardware Well he's selling on amazon well. He sold three chad bought. One one and i won a xerox sold. The machine good iraq's everybody's just gotten by a thousand dollars so this is gives with if you wanna if you're interested in this is actually clever. It's interesting to see how innovative. Because i don't think a big company came up with this. Right is some guy. So i think you're absolutely right guy probably maybe has a gallery and has a bunch of law lot. He keyhole thing. Maybe yeah yeah. His wisdom is that's the website jazzy. W wbz if this sounds good to you but it's not just this. There's lots of gadgets. There there's lots of stuff. There's the what the heck is a contest a chance to win. I got mine brand new autograph. Copy mad magazine were playing for who. That's the exorcist. Addition of madman. Yeah you'll get autographed by My mr de himself For correctly identifying a close up of a gizmo or gadget. There's lots of other great stuff there. Plus the gives was podcast. Which is his wisdom. Tv as well dickie dee alright I'm gonna call us draw because i got xerox machine. But you don't. This is a draw. But thank you dickie dee professor laura. Thank you for being here kim shafir. Thank you mike. A sergeant for joining me. Thanks to all of you for listening. And leo laporte detect guy have a great well. That's it for the tech guy show for today. Thank you so much for being here. And don't forget twit. Twit it stands for this week in tech and you find it at twitter dot tv including the podcast for this show. We talk about windows. Windows weekly macintosh amac trae weekly ipads iphones. Apple watches on ios. Today security secure. Now i can go on and on and on and of course the big show every sunday afternoon this week in tech you'll find it all at twit dot t. v. and i'll be back next week with another great tech guy shop. Thanks for joining me. We'll see next time.

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Monitor Show 19:00 06-20-2020 19:00

Bloomberg Radio New York - Recording Feed

01:42 min | 1 year ago

Monitor Show 19:00 06-20-2020 19:00

"At Bloomberg, we know a lot of financial experts who is a former president of the European Central Bank global financial. Warriors Classic Textbook a lot of political experts. If you're advised in the United States, what's the? He's not doing that. He should do lucky for you. We know a lot of science experts to you talked about as reagents which are necessary for the testing aides, also the behavioral psychological approach Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg business APP and Bloombergradio Dot Com Bloomberg, the world is listening. Before hours a day at Bloomberg Dot. com, the Bloomberg business APP and on quick take by Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg radio now. A global news update. Federal prosecutor fired. TULSA RALLY ABOUT TO START I'm Evan haning well. The standoff between Attorney General William Bar. The top federal prosecutor in Manhattan has ended Southern District of New York. Prosecutor Jeffrey Berman has stepped down after bar agreed that his deputy could replace him Democratic Congressman Ted Lieu. who was on the House Judiciary Committee says there is a pattern of corruption president trump and his appointees intervene in the legal process to protect themselves. themselves. We've seen trump fire the FBI director. He's fired numerous inspectors general. We saw a sucker Peyot Guinness Becky draw fired because he was investigating secretary. We've now seen bill bar intervene in cases against Roger Stone and Michael Flynn to protect them from prosecutions. And now we have this firing or Teke. Firing of your attorney. Birmingham was office is investigating trump's allies and Tulsa president trump's first big rally since covid nineteen four social.

Bloomberg Bloomberg Radio trump Bloombergradio Dot Com Bloombe Bloomberg Dot. president TULSA William Bar attorney Prosecutor United States European Central Bank Teke FBI Evan haning House Judiciary Committee Roger Stone Jeffrey Berman
The Verdict

Direct Appeal

35:43 min | 2 years ago

The Verdict

"Before we begin today we wanna play a trailer from our friends at the podcast crime culture. In which the host explained how true crime and pop culture intersect. Here's crime culture. Is your netflix queue. Basically all true crime movies and series. You ever wonder why. You can't open a bottle of tylenol without using the jaws of life crime culture hosted by me. Haley langan and me caitlyn. Mahar har- is a podcast discusses true crime pop culture and how the two relate from killers that have inspired hit films like silence of the lambs to the motives for crimes. Such as the murder of john lennon join halian meet every tuesday to discover the pop culture side of true crime tuning in. We encourage you to go back and listen from episode one. This podcast may contain content. That graphic and disturbing in nature listener discretion is advised to submit a theory. Tip a question or comment please. Email us at tips at direct appeal. Podcasts dot com or call us and leave a voicemail at seven three two five one zero zero nine nine six as a reminder. Melanie will be answering your questions. And a bonus episode. So don't forget to submit your questions by july thirty first via email or voicemail previously on direct appeal. The dog hair that was found in the bags with body. Where was this body packaged. It's been made a lot out of l. She got rid of his clothes like two days after she found out in my mind. I'm getting more. We're packing up. We're moving and not aware he's dead is so grisly as to pretty much negate the possibility that anybody could do this without leaving forensic evidence. The mattress had gone to the dump. But at the very least you can see. It's not to block all the fees comparisons and found nothing. I've indicted because number of anonymous communication has been received. They found e. n. a. fingerprints this communication. That didn't match anybody. This that i was ultimately acquitted up. This is episode twelve the verdict. So there are a couple more things that we should talk about with the defense one of the things that melanie brought up as concerning to her was not just the the witnesses and the experts and who joe didn't call but she also brought up the fact that joe was under some type of investigation. Okay at the time of her trial. And ultimately i would find out that one of my attorneys was under federal investigation. At that time it had just been advised of that now. Apparently legally bid some gray area as to whether or not he has the responsibility to inform a client that he's representing at that point because obviously his attention. As every anybody's attention would be elsewhere at that time. But what i'm told at least by some people is that because it's a different jurisdictions he didn't have an obligation to inform me to me that just flies in the face of comment. That's kind of when our defense went on fast forward. The experts dried up and all of a sudden. I wasn't testifying anymore. Okay so what is she talking about. What is this investigation. And should she have been made aware. So joe at one point represented bernard kerik. You ever bernie. Kerik sounds familiar. But i can't place it for About a year. He was the Police commissioner l. k. In new york city. So here's the story about bernard kerik joe's involvement what happened so bush nominated carrick. And this is bush junior nominated character because the secretary of us department homeland security In december two thousand four but character pretty quickly withdrew his nomination. An investigation ensued into his actions while he served as the new york. City police commissioner from two thousand. Two thousand one. He was also the new york city department correction Sorry new york city correction department commissioner from nineteen ninety five to two thousand so an investigation ensues and ultimately what happens is correct pleads guilty and bronx supreme court to failing to report alone and accepting a financial gift okay. I don't know like. I don't really know much about what happened. I remember it was news. Then and i remember he put guilty to something and you know. He accepted a financial. If you know when you're in office you're not supposed to. Yeah so someone's giving them money for something he pleads guilty His his lawyer was joe. Teke pena okay. So what carrick leader claims is that he was convinced to take the plea by false representations made by his attorney joe tack pena carrick was investigated subsequently in the federal district in two thousand six and tackle pena stopped representing him after he was served with a grand jury subpoena at that time. Tackle peanut according to carry started cooperating with federal prosecutors carrick Subsequently pled guilty in the southern district of new york in two thousand nine to tax fraud and false statements. He was sentenced to four years in federal prison and he served his time at from what i remember at a minimum security Institution in maryland. So that was four years and he files eventually falls a complaint against tampa pena and again. He's alleging that you know joe Convinced him to do certain things to take deal that He was his representations stopped representing him and he started cooperating with the federal prosecutors. Who prosecuted carrick on other charges. Okay so he's sort of like switched sides and then once so after pena's switched sides that's one character on after him yet wall charac. Actually i mean yeah so character. Joe is not representing carrick anymore. And he was he was talking to the prosecutors. Maybe cooperating in the investigation against character but it might have been that. He was not cooperating. It might have been that there was nothing to do with the case before I think as i understand it was also friends with character. Okay outside so he was. He had come under some type of investigation Let me just say this before. I even give you the information. That's relevant here Bernie kerik filed suit against joe He he he filed a complaint against. You're talking about yeah. He filed a civil suit against him. i think it was like two thousand fourteen later on The the suit was dismissed. Okay and joe then filed as i understand it joe tack piano. This is all from. I pulled this. You know i'm getting these record. Yeah public records. And joe then later filed i think A defamation suit bernie for you know yeah And then i think that bernard kerik filed a countersuit. And as i understand it match as i understand it just said to be clear i think all the suits have been dismissed. Okay and i think. I know that charac suit was definitely i know this is definitely the initial was dismissed. The counter one filed by karaoke was dismissed the counter counter counter. I think joe's was dismissed as well. But i think it had some merit dismissed with some stipulation. Maybe like with merit or something. I'm not really sure. I don't really know the exact. They were all pretty much dismissed. But here's why i mean. Why is it relevant. It's relevant because this was going on. It's time of melanie's trial. Okay relevant. Because they he was meeting with prosecutors. I guess during that time. And let's see here's why it's relevant it alleges in the suit even though this complaint was dismissed. I'm sure some of the dates have to be correct now so it looks like in this. It says about march twelfth two thousand seven federal prosecutors involved in the grand jury investigation against mr. charac served. Mr teke pena with a grand jury subpoena calling for the blanket. Production of records from his law firm relating to bernard carry on information soon after defendant. Teke pena was informed that he himself was under investigation by the us attorney's office for financial and tax crimes. Now do i know if that you know. This suit was dismissed. So i didn't. I don't know about any of these out maybe all. These allegations were dismissed but the timeframe that we're looking at if he was served the subpoena on march twelfth. That's melanie's trial. Yeah that's prime tie. You're suggesting that he had a lot going on at the time. yeah. I'm suggesting that he had a a walk going on at the time melanie says that too. She's like. I didn't know at the time you know why. Why was joe. She said that he seemed pre. He was seemingly more preoccupied right. Okay we're things going on and you know she's saying he's he's getting things wrong. He did this great job on cross examination but then all of a sudden he's falling off the wagon and what about toronto. He's like jesse taking a back seat at some point like well toronto's co-counsel and and and you know he does as we talked about. He does the work but he's not the face of the trial steve. Toronto did the open. The closing was done by joe but appeal. Okay that's a good way to lead us into the closing actually because According to melanie joe paid an outside firm to write the closing statements or the summation closing it turns out that joe retain someone to prepare the closing for him like they had this from the beginning. Like okay these people. Sally and joe and they're going to do our closing arguments. You know. say one of the trial. These people had not been and he contractors with somebody to prepare this closing argument. And they know what they're doing. They'll be able to do it much better than i could. You know that. I'm a courtroom guy. I'm not the guy who sits there and makes up graphics and stuff like that. I had known that. I would have prepared the dan powerpoint slide. I certainly put a now. If you're going to spend thirty five thousand dollars on anything it should have been other exit. Thirty five hundred. They wanna do that too. So i wanna say the record. I don't have anything to substantiate. This claim has said a number of times to me and to her credit ninety five percent of what she said to me in terms of the legal. I've been able to verify. But i don't have any receipts or anything but you have been able to verify that he did in fact hire someone to write the closing. I haven't no. Hey this is all according to okay. But and so she said thirty five thousand thirty five s this a lot of money. Okay so yeah. I saw your face. I thought we should pause. 'cause you look like you're about to freak out you know he started with okay. Lumo reacts with blood and bleach. So even if i had cleaned up you would still see them and all bleach the apartment there. Were you know positive. So all over the place okay. Fine mentioned that. Nobody checked at the econolodge. The brochure that was on the front seat of bills car. Now i get that you're trying to point out deficiencies here to me. That's not worth what you lead with the the gaping hole here. He argued that they didn't investigate jimmer. Brad which isn't a good argument. Because leave at least brat that one that i know they turned his life upside down that only one bullet had fibers on it and it doesn't make sense to silence only one shot now okay again. The thing that were being brought out were being brought out by people who hadn't been present for the whole trial you know. Imagine how overwhelming the information was to them and you tell he said you tell jurists. Don't play detective. But he referred them he said. I want you to go. Look at the records in evidence that we're never displayed to you. Well they were never displayed to the jury because you agreed to pay like bills. Pharmacy background things. Like the credit card statements bank statements phone. You know that would have been good to kind of putting in front of somebody's not used to scenario. Tell the jury to go look at the stuff. That isn't an evidence when they've got so much evidence to sort through. He said the bill was taking depression. Medication he alluded to that. That's correct bill. Sister cindy testify to the fact that there are other sister will leave teenagers medication and cindy herself even admitted that she thought he might have depression and or might be bipolar. Buddy listen on medication. So where the hell does that come from. They had pulled so many different recording snippets. If you will you know you'd find joe saying okay. This is the last one. I'm gonna play or here. I'm going to skip over this one. I'm going to be your skipping over like wise it in there. If you're skipping things from your own summation what does that make it. Look like i have to agree. I thought was troubling to me. You know offhand going He's he's looking through. Submission guns skip skip. You know usually try when you're writing your summation talking about as a minute. But this is all the critical points in one of the most important. If not in part of this is the last thing the jury's left with lasting. They want me to wait. Yeah let's wait. i just had okay know. He's saying basically anybody that that wasn't called by the state we would call like for instance Dr scott for my practice. It's if the state had called him we would have called him but as he was going on with that he's going to cetera etcetera etcetera. Like you can't etcetera over anything in a closing argument when you're supposed to be drawing things together. You know the praise people use a lot is like phoning it in. It's beyond that it's like phoning it in with with you. Know half of battery. I if you gave them nothing even remotely comparable you just left them with patties version of events by the time that was over i sick to my stomach and the courthouse flooded that day so we got our closing done and the courthouse was closed for the rest of the day so the state got all not to rewrite their which they lead with. I sing the next morning. There was so much more that could have been said and joe is a very charismatic guy. When when he wants to be but he wasn't he wasn't on he. Just i can't think of any other way to say it. He just wasn't on knowing what i know. Now what's going on in his life explains just about every time before we talk about the general issue. Here i'm curious. What is the econolodge brochure. As the first time. I've heard about that. The econolodge okay. So there are a couple of things found in bill kanu. I think there are a couple of things found in bill's car. So i guess you know. The coral hydrate was founded. But they found a brochure for khanna lodge. Where without any. Yeah and something else. Another another ac brochure. They didn't investigate. It sounds like they didn't not to my knowledge to see what they would have at least gone to those and said hey queasy your footage like your camera navy. They did to mine. I don't know other ways the anti okay. I think most importantly is i. Don't i guess you can't but doesn't seem a little bit about like inadequate defense or is is an inadequate defense claim only relevant if it is Considered something that would drastically changed the course of events or so the decision to retain again a firm so i had asked. I consulted with two people that i knew in this field In one of them the expert is going to talk to us at some point but And what i've heard is that it's not the standard practice like most most attorneys want to write their own. But if you're if you're hot own summation which is also for me. It wasn't even the fact that it wasn't that he didn't write it. Which yes. I was questioning that but the fact that there was incorrect information closing. I don't know them probably is not strong enough to make an inadequate defense claim. So they're going to bring it up Later on when melanie fossil repeal bring it up on ineffective counsel she does. Okay does question. Does she bring up this issue. I think she does. I don't think it was one of her. I i don't think i don't. I'm questioning it myself. I don't know that it's strong. But i do know that. There's a case to be made because we know that the you know the weight of closing on jurors and the fact that the closing got botched up. I mean i agree. He missed points but you know he got things wrong on so i think minimum points is one thing but saying inadequate. Yeah there were things that were wrong and then you heard the end. So what happened was They closed on his closing in patty. Didn't have to. My biggest issue is the jury is getting. Whoever they're hearing from last is going to stick with them right the fact that it's like the slates wash clean. Whatever he said. Yesterday i like forgot about an all. I'm hearing is patty. Well now. they're going to hear that. I'm going to deliberate. You know well the problem is she had an extra night. She got to change about how much time she had. She gets her go home. And i don't know what her closing initially was. But whatever joe address if there was anything that she took issue with oh my whole night to sit down and rewrite it. If she wants she goes she wants which. I'm sure it did not happen. But but i'm sure there's no way she didn't take something from that. I would imagine like it's knowing you their cards right. You know it's like you usually. It doesn't happen like that. no. I mean i'm sure that it does happen in cases where it look closing arguments. Sometimes we'll go a long time if you think about it murder trial. Sometimes closing arguments can be. You know six hours so i. I do think that it happens in. China's only does but in this this time i don't think it was a plant. Do you know about how long the closing was. There are couple of hours so his was his was lower. So i think melanie said i'm sure we could find this out. But i think melanie said about two hours. Maybe a little bit longer. Okay regardless circumstance weather whatever she got you know extra extra time so. I asked melanie. Melanie talks about. Joe's closing statements as the end of their defense. And then i asked her well. What about patties closings. Because then you know the prosecution gets to do. They're closing statement and she said well. She told a story You know we didn't have a story but patty tells a story. Does she get everything right. No just she exaggerate. yes so this story is important. To and tackle. Peanut did not have a story whatsoever right now. Patty did uh-huh closing was one thing but been hearing her. Closing was so markedly different. So so much stronger but it really it kind of terrified i so the next day she gets up and she starts you know. And she's saying okay basically. Melanie doesn't get points for for being clever in certain areas of yeah. Where's joey tries to say. Well she can't be basically an evil genius and a bumbling idiot at the same time we start with a gun is consistent with the make and model in that whole mantra and she's trying to say that there are no calls from me to bill and that ain't clearly that i already knew he was dead. Is it possible that that night. Maybe in celebration they were having a drink when choral hydrate was administered. I would say whatever started that execution started to be the execution of the murder started in the apartment at night. And i would suggest to you. It's very difficult to move someone who is unconscious especially in an apartment complex but is it possible of course possible and i don't have to prove it happened apartment but we are going to go over the evidence because they submit to you. There's an abundance and abundance of evidence that does suggest that indeed did happen in the apartment. She says occurs in the shower stall talked about the positioning of the body. She tried as much as she could to sort of anticipate their home then she starts with drop cloth. Well anybody who you know the defenses making it sound like it's this huge gruesome scene and nobody would ever be able to clean clean it up. Would you know medical examiner's do it every day. We kind of said okay. There's no cut marks there snow anything in the tub. He would see chips. In the in the fourth one in fact Mr lesniak testified that there was no disturbance to the bottom of the stall to the tile around the stall and she said that she said that ties in the razor stubble being stuff to the tape in the bathroom but she's tying this up really neatly yup really picked razor stumbling bathroom. She's making the explanation cleaner neater. She also argued that. I could have silenced the thaw or so with a pillow or a towel but that would have hang out there for a minute Yeah i don't know about that. But kicking him. Yes but you know if you look scared if you object or closer to what she just said. I silenced a circular saw with a towel. Where is that evidence. Okay so one of the most ridiculous things. I think i've ever heard and enduring this. Tr- came during this trial. Is that melanie silenced. A reciprocating saw with a pillow. arou-. I can't imagine that boundary saw during you know cutting away. I thought that was one of those ludicrous moments. I like melanie said okay. We'll let that one hanging out. I i love her little sayings I know that melanie was not a suspect right away. But i'm assuming they interview. People wouldn't melanie or was she. You gave me a look like her pretty quickly. but she didn't have any cuts on her right. If you're using a solder cut up a body wouldn't you hurt yourself at some point or are you like europe said and you're trying to do this quick and quiet and well i don't know did you saw yourself that what you mean. I know you would think she'd have a saw it. But i don't know. I just feel like the way. They painted as if she's doing a lot of like physical labor. Here i would exceed. He's sort of bruising. Only i don't know if it was her accomplice. That did that that true okay. I'm not really sure. But i did think. The reciprocating saw was was ridiculous. Yeah razor stubble. I don't. I don't understand what that's all about. Yeah there were hairs found on the tape on the garbage bags. And i think the prosecution's assertion was that these were like stubble razor stubble and that it obviously came from melanie tracking bills razor stubble from the bathroom where she was you know cutting up his body. At least i think that's what they were inferring or implicating and so i guess it melanie's talking about now You know why didn't they object to this. You know some of this stuff and she said it would have made them look defensive. Is that what she said. Defensive calling attention to something like no. No she's arguing facts not in evidence But at one point you know. Patty says Where she admits and you heard it in her own voice. She admits parking the cars flamengo and then she claims take a cab from atlantic city to woodbridge and when she because she couldn't find her car into sleeps on the way and then takes yet another cat from the wickford train station act to atlantic city. He stands up and says you're on our object that's an absolute mischaracterization of the evidence. How is it that all of his character. This may be one of the few this characterization so that part was correct. That is one thing. That's correct joe. I'm sure wasn't the one yes it was. It was buying large said that was right and he objected instead mischaracterization. She was like no no what that is actually right. That's that's what happened. I was gonna sing. It's just the context. She's painting now. That i can't blame on any company paid to do a closer. This is him at this point. Like where's your head or you high like. We just spent eight weeks doing this. How do you not know this story inside outside back front. How do you not know it. mr lowry. Let me just digress. Here since i had this right you heard from israel oury on the defense case we told you. And this is in the transcript. He had a conversation with bill about purchasing a gun. But there's no evidence before you are. during trials. at bill wanted to purchase ago. The prosecution argued against the inclusion of that testimony and now she's putting the exclusion of this information. Forward before the jury as proof of getting so you argued to keep it out. The judge said okay. We'll keep it out and then you go in front of a jury and you say well because this isn't here clearly she's lying and my own team doesn't stand up jack She's asking like for instance. Where how i on may third. You know you didn't hear any evidence of where. I was well where i was was. Rma updating my hr information and stuff like that so and she knows that and she knows that very well but because it wasn't brought out anything that we fail to illustrate she seized upon whether it was accurate or not whether it pointed to my guilt or not so she knew damn good and well where i was on may third because she had all the records because otherwise he would have been hearing about nothing else. What may sir. Her explanations were so much neater because it didn't require speculation in a bunch of different areas. Had i've been on the stand. I could have said this is what happened. We began with this and run through the time line in such a way that you can't when you're trying to piece it together with different Different witnesses it's much. It's much harder so it's kind of i don't wanna say he said she said but we're going back and forth and it's going to end up being who do you believe well. If you presented experts for some things you haven't presented experts for other things and you just kind of leave them hanging there. What does it look like. She told a story she told the story whether that story had holes in it at times or whether that story was unbelievable at times it was a lot better than our story which was nonexistent is a story. She did tell a story. I think that the arguments about you know. Well you didn't hear this Yeah yeah. I don't like a lyric but they have a lot of latitude in closing arguments. it's not evidence. The judge definitely instructs them at some point that this is not now. They're not supposed to argue things that are completely Out of the scope speculate. Yeah they can so while. I don't like some of the things she argued she was just you could say. She's zealous. Prosecutor prosecutor She nailed it gel. Hold a story and melanie shelter stomach sinking in as As he was doing this So answer sorry any questions. I want to sound right after. I was just curious. It sounds like that's at the point where melanie probably started the pretty worried. She's definitely word. I mean she's on trial for murder anyway again so with she thought i mean she probably thought that it was her what to think she had mixed feelings throughout at this point. Once the state finishes they're closing the cases over The state rest the defense arrest and now it goes to the jury and the jury has to deliberate until they come up with a verdict. So melanie talks about right after the trial. What was it like waiting for the verdict and while we were waiting for the jury to come back we were out at that weekend and then at one point the jury came back and asked for repack. Something about testimony that had to do with the Be anonymous so joe. Fever using this opportunity to reassure me and it made sense at the time. Hey if they're sweating the charges about the monogamously indication. There's no way they found guilty mark. There's no way they'd find you guilty of murder and be sweating these charges over here. You definitely don't think that you're going to be convicted of such a heinous crime it that you've no involvement i mean it's it's mind boggling and of course intellectually i can step back and i can tell you okay. Well these are the things that make me look involved. These are the things that make me look guilty. Of course there are your cohabitating with somebody your your lives are inextricably intertwined it. That's why spouses always the first person. So i would have thought this would have thought the same thing right. Oh they're reviewing testimony about the the the animus communication whether or not. I wrote a letter i mean. If they're sweating that yeah. I would have the same indicator i think i would have had. Yeah how long were they. I don't know if you're gonna get to this if so then you could tell me If i'm not mistaken and they were yeah they were they were not sequestered so this is what it's like you know she's waiting so i guess you go through you're asking me. What did she say well. She wasn't sure it's everything right like there were times where she said she felt like joe would say no. We're doing good like look what we we punched holes djamil and then she You know describes feeling like you know lackluster. After they put on their case like we didn't really do a great job but again julia sherzer. We we didn't have to they. We punch holes in everything so then she hears his the closing by hem. She describes after his closing patty. She said she felt. I remember saying this to me. Deflated thought okay. You know we're in trouble. Yeah and then when they got word that you know they were. The jury was Debating the anonymous communication. She again in her lawyers. Like this is great roller coaster ride for her so This is how she describes waiting for the verdict and then the verdict actually comes in. I remember one of the sheriff's officers Telling steve that he thought they were getting close and eventually they came in the said. Okay well we've got it and i'm trying to message To the person nine with the time has been with me throughout this entire press trial. whatever. And i'm trying to trying to email have and all i can get out is. My hands are shaking so badly. All i can get out is now. I couldn't even form any other. Words say brought us into the courtroom. And i remember standing. I remember Waiting for the jury to be seated and at that point looking at their faces. And i'm thinking. Oh my god you know and i don't read into read into it you're gonna know in ten seconds like you know shut up. I'm having this inner dialogue In my head and you know two voices going back and forth look. Don't look at them on my face. Before you know it you know they. They give the They give the verdict. And i don't remember a lot. After that i remember kind of grabbing joe and i remember saying my kids my kids and i don't i don't really remember much After that i do remember being taken county waiting to get from the verdict to sentencing was excruciating absolutely excruciating. You know you're you're thinking okay. Well we're going to appeal. We're gonna do all of this and you have no sense of how slow it is. How long it takes about three months perspective really. Nobody gives a shit. So nobody's helping you. When it comes to things like transcripts getting we had talked about what to expect and at this point my thing was on. I really don't give what you say. Because i'm protesting my innocence. Here you can tell me thirty. You can tell me life you can tell me double life. I don't really give a shit. I'm not owning any of it. I'm not accepting any of it. Because i'm still at that point in my head at that point in time like you know no grievous injustice and it's tired and hurts and is beaten down as i am. I'm not accepting that. I expected the worst. What i got was just one step shy of the worst and really for all intents and purposes and they're indistinguishable. I just give in life with the possibility for parole however life for the purposes of parole in the state of new jersey. Seventy five years. I was given a life plus five for eighty years. I would have to do. Eighty five percent of to to early release act and long story short that puts me parole eligible at the tender age of one hundred one. So at that point you may as well as giving life without parole The judge was duty-bound and give me no less than thirty. That's the mandatory minimum. Yeah so i mean you've seen it as well making one. The verdict was read and her reaction. It's kind of hard to watch. Yeah grabbing onto for this is your life one of those famous scenes that people will remember again. It's hard to watch for sure. She has a very emotional reaction yet. She grabs onto joe and i think what she says is my babies my babies and she starts crying and pulling him in and he's trying to remain calm and standing at his pretty's though ick all right he was pretty stoic I think he was surprised. But i think he hid it well but she she really goes you know she loses that. Of course they say it's funny because they say you know you'll see these cases and i've seen so many trials where the defendants they say like guilty and there have nothing. Yeah they don't move. Just look i'm always like god. Yeah i don't know. Is this the reaction of an innocent person which he had. Is that an but a guilty person. Reacts like that too bright jerry. Yeah because if you're guilty you're still getting your babies taken away from you. You're still you know going away for a long time right. Well i think we would encourage anyone who's listening To our listeners. To at least take a look. You can google youtube and court. Tv yeah it was on court tv so everyone can see the verdict. So or the whole trial. Right i don't you know it must be like archival footage they don't have the whole thing and the whole thing But there are various. They'll probably get the openings closing those the bigger parts on youtube. You can get you can get some of this. I bet i mean we've we've done By timid we've looked at various scenes. But you can't get the whole album requested old court. Tv doesn't exist anymore. It's true tv right. Yeah or is it true. Maybe okay so this is the end. The trial is over. A melania has been convicted for murder of her husband. What was the date of the Verdict oh shortly after. The trial began in march. Okay so it was. The verdict was Sometime in april the end of april seven so this is three years after so as april two thousand seven. Three years after expansion has been incarcerated since yes so after melanie. We'll talk about after the verdict. How she was in for time and then she was waiting to be moved in She's going to tell you about what it was like right after the verdict before she was transferred next time. We'll talk about where she is now. Next time and direct appeal is melanie. An innocent woman wrongfully convicted or shia coldhearted murderer as the prosecution alleged. We will reveal our conclusions on the last episode of direct appeal direct appeal hosted by megan. Saxon amy schlossberg. Our producer is james. Varga the story arc is written by megan sachs music and underscore by desert media recorded mixed and edited by justin crowd at jc studios. Special thanks to alan tuckerman. Whose work was integral to this production to view photos. Evidence and engage with other listeners. Visit direct appeal podcast dot com and follow us on instagram facebook and twitter. If you have a tip you can submit through our website or by emailing tips at direct appeal. Podcast dot com. You can also help us out by leaving a five star review on apple itunes or wherever you listen.

joe melanie bernard kerik carrick joe tack charac Haley langan Mahar har halian pena us department homeland securit new york city department bronx supreme court pena carrick Melanie bernie patty Mr teke pena Teke pena us attorney's office for finan
Episode 45 DeClutter I Can't with Nap Minister Tecca Thompson

What's Next for Women Podcast

43:30 min | 3 months ago

Episode 45 DeClutter I Can't with Nap Minister Tecca Thompson

"Hey guys if you haven't heard about anchor is easiest way to make a podcast. All you need is your phone now. How many of us. We all have our phone right. So what way to create a podcast on your phone real quick and easy. That's what i'm doing. I'm starting out starting my day out just creating a podcast before i start work. That's how easy it is am better yet. Anchor will distribute your podcast to spotify an apple podcast and many more. You can make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. So how easy is that. An anchor hasn't in it's all a one-stop shop so check oh anchor at anchor. Fm or go to the out and check it out of good when everyone welcome to the. What's next podcast for women. This is where we remove the. What if the. I can't from the equation to make room for your what's next so. Grab your favorite beverage and snack pen and paper and let's join our house and let's don't today i got another amazing co host. She is actually. She's a returning guest. I can't wait for you guys to hear more about what she's what's going on with her and you guys can drop in feet if you have any questions on her work or how you can get connected with either one of us but before we go to that. Let me ask you this. Are you sitting at a desk but you wanting more or are you sitting at adjust the tune even know where to even begin to get to the more see. Those questions were me. I was literally sitting at a desk. Didn't know what else i wanted our. This i was making everybody else's dreams prospers off my skills of the mind knowledge until one day i literally broke down and i said okay is time for me to work on my. What's nets and how do i do that. I had to conquer my what Hands i started working on myself are starting to look into me. And what is really holding me back in how i think it's those tomorrow. What's next so what i do. I started asking people. What am i good at started asking people. How can i help them and then started doing some inner self work. So that's what we do here. I'm not only i successful work. No my what's next. I have amazing co host. So i'm gonna bring on our next of this week's co host this teke. It's you guys got here her story. Grab your pen and paper again. Is when wednesday so throughout the show. I want to hear your win for the week. Drop it in the feet and here. We go and i want to show. I want to welcome this tech the how you doing lady. I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. I'm really glad to here. Glad that the exact hawk about things that are important to me interesting that other vote hopefully absolutely so tell everybody a little bit about you. Those don't know who miss tech at hand fed on teke thompson in by day a public servant in our children. I've been doing that for prominently thirty years in when i'm not doing that i'm spending my time building my own business which is sacred healing spaces. It's been my passion for the last year and a half and sacred healing spaces is a platform of that censures. Rest in transformation. I censor black women in my business in basically. It is a platform for women's calm and find rest in reconnect to their body. It's a transformative business where we do things like storytelling and i create spaces or women of color. You connect to their bodies in hell are transformed at stories. You guys have to join in her. Her breast is um her. Her whole platform is amazing. We even get to sit and you get to learn about true lee how to become an active listener. I have to say that she has really taught me that. I thought you deserve an a. On that because now i've really learned i've learned how to listen and not listen but really listen so you guys i want you to grab your pen and paper so you can understand on what what tech of programs consists of and how you can implement them into your day to day but first and foremost tech of the one i want the i talk about is the rest and the reason being is normally. I don't watch any daytime shows but funding of Talk they were talking about rest. And lonnie even said oh. I take a nap every day. I ladies were laughing. She was letting over. Like what do you consider a nap. You know you consider five minutes ten minutes kinda rusty you need. She said. I don't care what kinda arrested is is long. I can slay my head down. And i can close my eyes arrest by mine so charter by about the rest of the importance of resting okay. Absolutely him in. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about retro. Because you know it's one of my passions before we jump into that. I wanted to take one. Second to acknowledge mackenzie ridley mackenzie seventeen year. Old girl who lost her life three weeks ago. I believe it was or Yes about three weeks ago. They're having vigils tonight. In so for those of you know me and follow me know that i stand for of life young black girl so i just wanted to before we jumped into the body of the podcast interview wanted to light hyun handle from enzi. Hold hold her up in your thoughts in her family as they attend her vigil tonight in the city of columbus going candle instead. That to the fine in i was thinking about this as i was preparing to handle the night that almost every time i've been on platform with you we've had to why the candle for someone who something so true you're right. This is not the first time we packed. We had the light candles. I do want to extend our extend all our sympathies to mackenzie's family. I do know a couple of her aunts. Have been on my page. I do room wanted respect. All of them let them know that we are thinking of them in all in all aspects of our lives. Yes thank you for allowing state who acknowledged that another young black girl who we lost way way too soon and so as we move into the subject of rest which is one of the reasons. This is one of the reasons why it particularly folks of color and women of color. Niks essentially arrests does the injustice in the racism and then the gas lighting that we face around those things every day. Make us tire. And we've been taught at is particularly as black women to just show her all that heat all the feelings and lotions around that inside carrying all of that makes us physically higher spiritually higher mental retire in so in business arrests. My business is really a story in my story. It's the story of rest in connection to the body and listening to your body story starts last year during with the release of ahmad aubrey's video of what happened to him and it shook something. Loosen me because my son at the time wasn't avid jogger. He's still jobs every day but he was jogging a lot. Because the gym clothes and i was frozen paralyzed in fear in literally. It felt like every injustice that i ever had lewis emory micro aggression everything that i carry as a woman and as a black woman it just all came crashing down. In that moment in i was i couldn't move and it wasn't just for that day or that moment. It was a long time. I was not able to function properly. I i was just really consumed with anxiety in some through. That had to find my way out in amounts carrying also a lot of guilt. Because i was unable to protest one. Because i physically couldn't do it. I was immuno-compromised immuno-compromised. In i was my nervous system. Live in such a state that i couldn't function i couldn't engage people inside with carrie office field about my being able to be a part of what was going on but i found her listening community on racism. And for those of you know must worry. I showed up for five weeks. This listening community and i was able to listen to witness. Someone was witnessing myself. And i was witnessing some someone else's others the science to reasoning that. When you drop down to regulate in regulate your nervous system and that started me off on my journey. The other thing that i did was i. I went to sleep whenever i needed to go to sleep. Which is something that in our culture is either. We're taking that. We either have the perception that were being lazy or others have a perception of us as lazy. so rest is not censure in culture at all. But i found that ministry out of atlanta for tissue hershey in i all i can remember messes with delay down that in so i begin to just rest whenever i needed to. Whenever i couldn't ocean. I recall back in bed. Cau- tell my boss. I'm done a tent or a at kuma laptop is dead and so on through listening in the constant resting and i mean i literally just rest it whenever i needed to i was able to restore myself so my business is a reflection of In so i'm teaching people about rest and especially black women about russ because we need it on phony level we need it is because it restores armani the need it spiritually because when you're really can slowly connect to newport connected guy or your higher power whatever you know you may say your high happier. Higher power is it allows us to connect to our creativity on a lower level. I was just talking to someone last night when we're constantly going from one activity to the next is like we have a vision. We have enough fuel in our pain to carry out the vision at hand but we're not able to download any new. Creativity has were not even ourselves onto breath because our days look like one activity to the next to the next in the next coming home navy eating something in falling into exhausted and even in that fleet. You're not being rusted to. Your body is carrying all of the stress on the anxiety. All of them. Whatever from the day in literally gets store in to your tissues in your muscles and so that's why some hunt you come home and you sleep and you wake up and you feel like you need to go back to sleep because you're not fully rested because you hear that tension in your rust is so important on so many levels in as you know cam for me. Roses also local state rest is pushing the systems that tell us that we have to get up in grind every day arrest in resistance to discuss the whole mindset of grind culture. And sometimes people don't want to hear your that because everyone we've been caught to grind ryan guy but The grind is heavily rooted in our history of slavery where our bodies were seen as less than men hammers as machines or no working. So emma business. You can engage me on any level if you want to come to me learn about rest in recognition to your body for south here i got to if you wanna come and learn about how were in. The lack of breast is connected to our history. Our heritage and i got you to absolutely. Let's let's go back on the rest and it's so needed. I want us to talk about that. First and foremost because i feel if we can get the understanding or lease talk about the concept of what a true rest is bin vinh so much. More convenient tackled. So first and foremost everyone agrees. Thank you for joining us. It's win wednesday. I seen a few wins but keep dropping feed if you guys have any questions as we continuing our podcast drop. It here. dropped the questions. We definitely will address them. It will be perfect to dress them here. Why we have miss teke with us versus later on so you can hear her here and give her full connection with her so with the rest. I don't have to say. I have started releasing rusting youth. Promise you have taught me so much on how to tell the active listing but not only active listening how to rest and i rest now were everything is shut all in. It's in a in a semi dark room but at least it's now not where it's so bright where is not where among not even when you close your eyes. The flashing now descended literally now resting in being in total total into me so with that being said tech. Can you talk a little bit more about arrests in the importance of how it plays. I like the the tissue piece. I can totally go when i'm rested even want okay. So we'll back back a little bit so last time i was with you. I shared on a one of the books that i kind of read a gave me. Some understanding. is dr seuss. book on. Seacrest dr sandra dalton says there are seven type of rest that me And it's really important for us to understand exactly what type of rest we ne- at what time and so many give you the seven types of rest in. We can talk a little bit about that. The first one is physical rest in that can be either physically wrestling with just laying down taking a nap. Slowing the body down sitting in a chair in just having no movement in distressing or it could be what stockard on cost active for us. Which would be the practice of yoga or meditation for me. I offer a somatic practice. Which is a re connection to your body but it also who way to release that incheon out of your body it also regulates your nervous system as well and also i offer yovany tra in yovany joe is a non physical form of yoga is a yoga sleep. And so basically what you would do in and listen to me. Guide you through a very rested meditation. In that practice you goes through all the levels asleep but your conscious and it's it's very powerful so that would be physical mental rests. We all need. It is just resting your brain western culture. We're always in our head. All the time all day long dainty worrying strategizing hamam solly honduran so much time up here in so doctor said you need to figure out. Physical recipe need mental wrath spiritual Right lewer not resting are not able to connect to our true creative. Spiritual power emotional. Russ that is the time to. I like to say space thing out in process the emotion in. That's why i really like these body based interventions because again as black women. We very rarely take the time to do large emotion. We're taught act pretty much. Black women are caught that we're not allowed to have our motion pretty much. We're not allowed to have our emotions and our feelings over caught to push them down in so emotional. Rest is taking the time to unpack. Deal the feeling rest. Recover the movie one right day. That are feeling steal. Something in your body coming up and immediately like mum appeal that strong woman. I'm not gonna you know. I'm not gonna do that. Will what happens is it doesn't go away in a half it'll work out of your body some way. I say that our emotion wants to be acknowledged. Just like any other part of us. We will be acknowledged pain when you do a great job. You expect to someone's Nice job you're doing a great job with the podcast right. Our emotions are no different than that. They just want to be acknowledged and then they can condo do whatever it is they want so that what she means by emotional rest sensory breath. We talk about this. The last cell phone. Cv's music all this stuff going on. Sometimes it's hard for us to disconnect in but it also has a lot to do about let's scenery. Do you see around every day if you are every day getting up coming into your office space in spending like we did during the shutdown long hours working at the same scenery around you. Mix your senses tired. It makes you tie for the unique leafy go out and you look around all of a sudden you know better. You're looking at the grass and the greenery and you know all of that stuff. So sensory rests is another former social rests. Meaning hey i wanna back. I need to back off. I you know in just giving yourself some distance phone not listening to the fear of missing out. So what miss out. I need to rest and finally the one that i love the best. I love going through this process of rusting in waking up with the first of creativity so the last one is creative wrath in again that's just the. Nfl will tap into d levels of creativity that were not able to access when you're when our tanks are imphal in so those are the seven form of ham knows that at any given time she has seen me practice all of the all of them so true like underwriting down like we did this one we talked about this about. Everyone is really really good to see that a lot of women are saying that they need the mental rest. So if you're recognizing that what tech is saying on the mental rest do it. I have to say that's where i started out. Was the mental rest because it allowed. I had to russ my mine. I had to really disconnected from disconnect from everything. Now the one. I'm really trying to work on. Funding is the creativity. Russ i'm really trying to hone in on it. I can't say once. I've worked on the mental rest. Their creativity rest is coming like this. It comes it comes. So i promise you so. All of these do work hand in the albany. Goodness i really since teke has been in my space of showing in on top me about talking to me about her business. It has taught me how each one of those has played a part into where. I'm at now so now when everyone's like will pay i can do it like this. The unknown knowing how to the creativity comes more when allow them mental rest to take. It's time to take its place. And then i also know now. The suit sensory rest. I haven't practice yet. Because when i was in when i was here in the house i still steps outside. I still took the time to actually. What i love to do is go right around this drive around it. I don't want. I don't want to spend any money. I don't wanna. I don't wanna go anywhere. It's just wanna drive around in and i think i've been talking about this. I do it in. If it's late night. I will do it late at night. Rolling down the windows and just ride around in comeback in like wholly different holy. So you guys have to try this. Z are needed. Talk talk a few these tools. I want to work sensory. I promise you the creativity is like they all working enhanced. Let me just say that he can not stress the importance of how the all work but wherever whatever one that had you feel that you're connected to do it do it. We need to take care of our bodies. It has shown that if you don't take care of the rest you don't rest. Take care of your body it starts. It's just becomes a domino effect. The talk about how it's build up in our muscles so whenever you guys are noticing that you're not resting are you can relate to one of the areas arrest do it. I highly recommended if you wanna know how to do it. More effectively or connect on a different level. Talk to you can connect what teke i will definitely have her put in her information on how you can learn how to rest because once know how to rest it will help you. Get to your. What's next. yeah right point in pam. I wanted to say two things if the practice though some of you might be sent back light how the world i have three children i have to work. I'll want hear which off talking about because it's not. It's not possible for me in my life or else. I work within no a law of high powered sessile achieving women who gotten to where they are by just getting it done by any means necessary and so when i come with saying less center arrest in. Let's find the balance some conference hard to receive. So the first thing i wanna say it is definitely a practice Just because i gave you these seven beautiful ways to rest tomorrow. You're not gonna be able to jump right into that in figuring out and get it done sart with one and just try and just kind of your coen in the thing about censuring rest is really about creating internal boundary. That says one. I am worthy of this time for ray. An internal boundary. That says no. I'm not gonna fix your sandwich before. I take arrests or before i take reading breath. I'm not going to automatically respond to all of these external email. Phone call heck's messages. Or i take care of myself and so cabal. It's the first thing. Creating a sacred healing state is about internal boundary and so rest is the practice. That's one thing. I want know who are listening to is that there are ways that you can add little pieces of rest into your day. Now i've talked about this holy saying on them taking a nap and i still will do that day if i need it but i don't need to do that in. I am not saying that you have to do that either. In order to practice their way where you can practice active rest in five minutes increments in a very mindful way that creates state choice in your life. One of my favorite practicing. I'm running back in morning. Bath eight a east. Because it's a mindset and i like to take a morning back on a day. When is my busiest day You have a really busy day. You already lake up in that energy of this done at a rush. Hurry up on. But i wake up the early in ice in i take a bath in fantasy about. I set it up like a saturday night. Ain't got nowhere to go. That handle extant saw favor book. Whatever in i just take my hat in my censure myself in coming out of the bath makes my day. Feel so spacious in. I'm going into in a relaxed mindset in so. There are a lot of different practices that you can do in smaller increments. That don't require you to lay down and take a nap. Yovany dra is a practice. I can guy. Roux and it's one of my favorite things to do for creative rest. Yoga need your again involved to moving through a meditation where you lie down. Most people fall asleep. But you still get the benefits. But what i like to do is put a journal next to me when i come out of practice. I'm i'm journaling. What has come up for me. So there's lots of different ways and that's really what my business is out. Let me take you on a journey. Become more connected to your body. Absolutely i love that so hope you guys have got your pen and paper. I always have mine so it. Will you have your pin paper. You grabbed through nuggets as as tech has dropped here to as an what i really loved about what i really love that you talked about his. You can do in five minutes. You have five minutes for yourself. What a perfect way to do it as five minutes. I actually do. I do the bath. Why do shower. And i let the scene town turn on a candle in. I let my audible. Read to me so i do that. However you need to do ladies to connect to yourself because once you're connected to yourself connected then everything in all things are possible so really take heat to this so we are already already halfway through this show. I thank you for this information. Wanna take down a little notch ear but before we come bring tech back if you have any questions. Please drop them in the feed. You know what's win wednesday. You know how we do it. We like to celebrate your win. Some tells you win. actually. I've seen one win at the beginning of the show. I will definitely read it here. All your winds made the wind be that you know you set the goal. But you haven't made it yet. You still have time. I still wanna acknowledged for that. May you want to set a goal which you don't know where to start at or better yet. You just can't even fathom it. All that is still is still still a reward. I love chair people on. Because i feel if you create small goals go huge goals could be met on easy easy easy way. If you want to know how to reach those goals drop them in the fee. A definitely will help you get to those goals. Help you get to your goals so real quick before i bring this tech back again. If you guys have any questions drop them in feed. I want everyone to everyone know the first half of the show was sponsored by real. Talk real people i hope. Machinery cherie is on here. You go you have to check them. Out of the podcast will be coming out. Nets on september decree. They have Marketplace or you can advertiser business are as well as service so sherry or cherie if you can drop it in the feet. How people can get to the get to the marketplace. I greatly appreciate it. And then the second. Half of the podcast is It is sponsored by vision made magazine and actually miss teke is one of the amazing writers contributing writers in the magazine. She talks about the sacred. Rest the sacred space so if you guys would like to read more on her article View where you can grab you at issue up. This quarter of vision made magazine the magazine that helps you make your vision. Come true so rule. Quick let's see resting comfortably at night will help to connect or do you need to take a nap throughout the day. Tackled question for you. I am going to tell you that need to rest throughout the day. Need to take a nap. This finding some rest for yourself because it helps you to refocus refresh and it helps you to be center in grounded. In what rests does it resets. You back to your most resourceful sell anytime we move to do anything. One of move from a place of being resourceful and so yeah so the i think they're both equally as important but it's all mindful because if you go to sleep at night and it's not rested fleet than you're back in the same boat absolutely. I love it any other questions. Drop them in. The below also would love to hear your win or this week. So miss teco. What book are you reading right now. Oh well. I'm reading a lot of books today. I pulled off of my show. Cancer journals by audrey lord and so i saw this amazing clothing there in wanted to read it because it just really sunk in about my work in your work. Him in all of us Women who who are out here kind of uplift other women as part of my business is hard to explain. But i think when you talk about. What's next for women. I think that a lot of us are seeking to do the greater thing that we've always known that we wanted to do. We just didn't know how to do it. And so what's next is all about getting into positions of steph out in do that and so in the cancer journal audrey said in knowing that my work is a part of the continuum of women. Were a reclaiming this or in our power in knowing that this were not begin with my bur nor will it end mazda. So it's like we got work to do. We continue where these women in this long line. Lineage of women that are doing this work to uplift each other and you know just bring about kindness and things here model year. Absolutely right gonna make an impact while we're here so I hope you are all finding ways that you can impact on become empowering to the world around you because we all have we all have ear. Especially if you do the rest in all especially. i'm. I'm just writing on the creative. Because that's where i'm at right now especially if you do the korean It'll all come but if you guys always know how to even start to doing rest or how you even know how to connect to teke teke. How can they find you. Okay so this is part of my win this week. First of all say that. I am probably in the second phase close last phase of having a my official website worker working with an amazing graphic designer shantelle williams and we were putting from working. And i think we're almost there so pretty soon you'll be able to connect with their but for right now on facebook. You can young on thomson. You can also email me at sacred healing spaces at mail dot com. You can also connect with each in the conversation lounge with your my immunity for listening for women of color very special space. Where women of color together we basically heard space for one another each other any encourage one. Another guys got to do it. I'm there every. I'm i try to be there. Every month didn't try to be there every month. So good job on your win. I can't wait to see your website. I cannot the. I'm so excited to impel is amazing. Just i mean if you don't have to know her because she is amazing and we've been doing some great work working on the website so i'm super excited in. She'll have a book coming out. I know ride can't wait chanels. Lynn is my win is focusing more on my business in applying myself. More jobs now here is oh yes. Here is the sheri's marketplace for. We'll talk or real people you anybody's looking or interested in doing some placing your business. That's she's an amazing another amazing powerhouse. Trying to tell you ladies. I'm bringing women that can help move. You help you move your needle to the next level on this. This year is like tech set is like no year in. Why not why we're here. Make that impact on the world on on the earth and we can do it. Where we empower each of our congratulations. She did my sight to. Yeah yeah it's been good work it's really motivating. Yeah we thought about it. Never everybody else's win but technically told you her win. And i have to save my win. Is i had to do an audition for a speaking platform. While i was chosen so now i'm getting ready to do the work to finish it up to be in powerful impactful on this on this platform on those of you may know or not know. I love to speak. Because i want to go out here. And i wanted to create an empowerment on leaving empowerment footprint on women around the world to letting them know to work on their. What's nets so that's that is my purpose in my passion. So i'm excited that i was chosen to do that. Work on that platform can't wait to see how it all comes on win. It is but yes. Thank you so much. thank you. Thank you absolutely. Congratulations everyone. well we're almost done this technical. Do you have anything anything else. You'd like to leave. You left the impact or footprint on everybody. What would you like lead. everybody live two things one. You can connect on the conversation. Lounge is a reoccurring event. You can find it on event. Bright i am hailing in for my cell phone today because my devices to computer who would not connect to the streaming today so i i can't drop it in so you can google that the conversation lounge come join us. It's no better. Learn more about me. But as always pam. If i have a few minutes i liked to leave us with a factors. Sure and it is. I've been doing practice the pause on every platform on just because we talked a lot about rest and i want to leave folks with how do it how to do rest in the middle of busy crazy day if we have enough time off. This one's lead you through practice. The pause is probably my signature grounding activity. It can be done in one minute or five. If you want to extend it out you can continue to. It's something that can be done really physically in its grounding activity that brings awareness to your by in. Awakens your refocus so wanting to lead you through it really quickly today so i want you to start by getting comfortable in the seat ice sitting in maybe take a couple of degrasse in a now. I'm just settling here. See the first thing. I want you to know this in notice your hands if they're resting on your lap notice the rate now notice how your body is being held. The chair notice your feet on the ground. The contact and snake around just notice. Now you to bring your awareness to your natural breath so in out of your natural bre now next breath you can inhale and drop your down here. Very an extent like a balloon from exhale the spurs nebraska weaving. Now i invite you to drop your attention down in your body will start by needy seeing. Run that area in eyebrow trucking down here man your your your heart center near valerie. Is it traffic. Hi rosa bruce. Who this noticing. Notice any others stations. You made all louis. And then we'll put is under background noticing. Stay topper your shoulders mistakes in between your shorter rates and as the end to close backers to invite you since pitcher tension on the space between your bonnie nevada who still rusty imagine workings on our practice focusing on your natural breath in. Ask yourself. what do i'm this next moment. Where this around the answer. The comes naturally ends as we are closing our practice and oftentimes. I like to think in my next thought or action taking up space or creating space. That is the packers. Worst break you teke. I hope you all enjoyed that while everybody. That is the end of another mazing show guys. Got your notes. if not check out the replay. We have had another amazing contact with miss. Thomson you guys have to check out the conversation. Lound i promise you. It taught me how to be an active listener there too. So we gotta join us. They join her. there will drop. Get the information on how you can connect to her on the conversation noun in much more so with that being said i want you all to know as we talk about the rest. How important is to focus on us. Please remember that this is all about empowering you to go after your what's nets a what way to do. It is as we did. Today we talked about the rest in how we comes Him be seen in seven different ways. So make sure you use one of these ways to get connected to you because there is no more is no other you than you yourself and note that. Go after you what you desire not what everybody desired this is you and be. Focusing on your in your. What's next night. Everybody's what's next and if no one has told you all you guys rock and you all are amazing until next week. Can't wait to see in here your win for next week. My name is pam stone. Thank you for joining me. This is amazing as always. Thank you until next week. Everyone's take care of yourself in take care bye everybody. Thank you for joining us for today's episode of the. What's next podcast for women. If you enjoy today show. Please leave a comment or wherever. You're listening until next time. Take care and be intentional

teke thompson mackenzie ridley mackenzie enzi ahmad aubrey lewis emory bin vinh dr seuss Seacrest dr sandra dalton stockard hamam solly russ Russ hyun lonnie mackenzie armani carrie columbus cherie newport
Hogsmen OG Episode 70- Camden's Seminar

Hogsmen Podcast presents Talk To The Hog

1:21:08 hr | 4 months ago

Hogsmen OG Episode 70- Camden's Seminar

"For the moment that you've all been waiting for from just north of the border. He's the only way with no. No bray mir manno from another mammo. He's the leonardo davinci of lockups oud. Numerous ooh that's right. You're listening to one of the three hogs men devon. I know where he's at he ain't here though. Now he's not here and Big duke said maybe next week Flight plans got got messed up can make it. he's probably the phillies game right now. We had a phillies game. But it is Wednesday it's june sixteenth. Big day yesterday atom. Okay you know why. Why is that california. Got to reopen. Oh yeah i. I walked into a liquor store today. No mask and i felt like a brand new man. Isn't it crazy. It's people some people. Were still wearing them. And that's fine. It's you're gonna you wanted but there's something so freeing about driving and you're like oh shit i forgot my mask and then going. Oh that's right. I don't need to worry about that anymore. Yeah it's it's so it's so freaking weird man. Just walk into a place in. I don't have to wear a mask. I get to see people's faces. It's a it's very. It's very weird. You wonder. people are silently. Judging you for not wearing one yeah. Yeah but hey man. Good i'm happy. I think a lot of people are happy about it now. We can have four attendance. That padres games. And hopefully that's what the case will be one hundred percent capacity starting tomorrow the first home game since california reopened speaking of the padres recording the podcast in my living room. And i have the padres game on. They are losing to the rockies right now. Three to four and it is the Is it before top of the fourth the fourth. So yeah man. it's good though. I'm glad we're we're heading in the right direction. It seems like with with all this kobe. Stuff and The mandates of all been You know hey we're free. The chains are off. the chains are off. If you wanna wear masks go ahead. That's your choice. I'm fine with it. i'm not gonna be any grief but It's nice not wear one. And i would hope no. We'll give me or you grief for not wearing one exactly because we've been following all the rules this whole time so obviously not against them or protesting against them or anything like that. No but anyways Let's see how to match this past weekend. For a love thy neighbor it is an organization that you know try to help out neighborhoods and We had a showdown in chula vista. And the show was called love thy lucia and it was awesome. It was so much fun with good cool so it was at a church but it was held in the courtyard area. Yeah and the courtyard area isn't like isn't like gigantic. But it's big enough to fit a ring and then you can you know it's it's there's enough room around the ring to have heavy. I and i mean there must have been a hundred and fifty people there two hundred people but it was such a small area that it just seemed like it. Was you know. Sellout crowd at the promoters trick. If you know you're going to get less than two hundred you hold it in. A smaller. Venue looks pack. Yeah rather than holding it in like jim. Just two hundred people like. Oh no one's here. Yeah so The In the crowd is great. Man it was just a fun crowd. They were there to have a good time. They were reacting to everything It wasn't it wasn't a a smart mark Crowd it was just people. There have a good time. You know small kids their parents all that kind of stuff. You find that you encounter those kind of crowds and san diego like i. Don't think those p like even when you go to like debbie. Wbz to san diego. It seems very much like a what a normal fan base would be like. Just seems like they're kind of into the wrestling. They don't care about all the other crap. They're just there to see wrestling be entertained. Yeah i guess. San diego's pretty fortunate not to have that heavy hardcore goes both ways right. It goes both ways. It can either be really good to have that heavy hardcore indie fan pro wrestling crowd and then you know because obviously they're very loyal yeah You know they love the they love the business and you know sometimes resting in front of that crowd. They've seen everything. Yeah because that's probably like you know more majority of which they what they watch is is wrestling and they've probably seen everything yeah to exhaustion. You know the a kind of like my theory. It's not it's not like it's accurate. Maybe it's how i feel as a fan. Sometimes i've seen so much. That when i watched something i i sometimes feel myself going man. I'm just i'm not into this. I can't figure out why and you kinda just go. Let's practice have seen everything like i'm not one to shit on somebody for doing something cool but it's like i've seen a million times like to me as a fan. It's kind of like okay. Maybe that's what it is. It's it's you know we don't have like we have those people you know but we don't have a very large audience of like of the at least i don't think so at least i'm trying to think of the places in san diego that that hold shows and you know like so. Cal pro has a very family. Friendly show The ground zero believe has little bit more. Maybe a little bit more. Pg thirteen yeah. I guess you could say like ground. Zero will be a little bit more that sometimes but not not full blown. And yeah i mean i have to say most of the san diego crowds family friendly kinda like whenever you go to like a show. It's very much like this is all great but wendy's ray come out kind of how. Wbz doesn't san diego always been for me really. Yeah yeah so but it was great crowd man. I had so much fun working with his crowd. so i was supposed to be in a triple threat is supposed to be Judy's is so crazy and myself we're going to redeem ourselves from the last time that we were in the in the ring together. They found the footage of that match. And said i don't think there is any footage of that match Always there and Benny boy was like hey she's gonna be jude is He had to put nestor. So-called crazy in a another match Apparently something happened and They just had to switzerland the card. A little bit so So-called crazy ended up Wrestling nightmares. Teke who's a local Ludar in the area. So yeah joys and i went out there and In worked had fun had fun man. I did the favors for For judy's and The crowd was awesome in back to back weekends of that or maybe every other week every other weekend because you wrestled him two weeks ago two weeks ago. Yeah yeah now manso just getting is back into the rhythm of Of working of wrestling again so as on man enjoys it easy to work with and you can hear a lot of those thoughts on last week's podcast. Yes yes you can hope. You guys enjoyed Our interview with judas. Yeah man so that was my weekend basically. I did this. Show on saturday Like i said love thy neighbor They're awesome man. They treated us so well. They actually catered for us. Which believe you me. It's very rare for Indy wrestling to have catering in the back. I've never heard of it. We're talking like huge trays of chicken. Rice chips and salsa all great man. They had like fruits and vegetables and or and Unlike snacks in the backwards waters gatorade. And all that kind of stuff. And i was like this is fantastic. Man this is after the show right. This is before i got there. They had just like the snacks out there. Like the the fruits snacks. And all that and i was like. Oh this is great man like you know. It's really nice that they did this. And then maybe like an hour and a half later they come they come walking into a and we had a nice little dressing area like a One of the The rooms at the church Opened up for us. They came and they brought all these chicken and rice. And we're like i was like holy crap man. This is great. So i bagged it up and brought it home with me to To eat man. Thank you guys very much. The light the love thy neighbor group awesome man and I think we're gonna be working with more with them. Which is awesome too so yeah it was good stuff man and then that was about it. Man sunday i pretty much just hung out went to the when to Which will bar With my wife it was a nice day out. Great great weekend out and beautiful and That's about it man that is about it. Started watching loki. I watched the first episode yesterday. Finally after it's i'm into it. I liked it a lot. I'm into it. My only issue with it was it was kind of like it's shit all over all the marvel movies so like i like how they're just like you have infinity stones here. Oh yeah there. I think is using people away. Yeah yeah. magic and stuff doesn't work in their little by the way spoiler game. Oh yeah sorry But there was a couple of other things too. I was just like wow so none of this really matter to the Been what at binged watched falcon and winter soldier. Because i was like okay. I got to get this out of the way. I binged that it was okay. It was okay really. They just took the long path to get falcon to be the next captain america. Yeah for for me. That shows more satisfying for me. Because i liked all the captain. America movies and and i liked Salmon bucky lot and part of that show is. It's a lot of like subtle stupid. Shit that cares about but like all the movies like bucky has just been like this tortured like been like mine brainwash. It been like. This show is kind of like by the end of the show he was with getting. We couldn't sleep. Yeah and then. By the end he was comfortable. Just sleeping sam's house and like by the end you just kind of like a buck. He's kinda back to normal from like where he wasn't like the first captain america movie. Yeah very true. And then they'll all sam thing was kind of like the whole. I mean it has a lot to do with kind of what's going on in the world right now where it's like. They wouldn't wanna black captain america and that they kind of use that as like sam was like no. I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it. I'm like well fucking steve. Pick you like yeah. Steve obviously saw something that no one else saw. It was like a really long way to get there but like there was a lot of like the final shot of them. Just kind of looking out until like the the sun and stuff. I was like that's more satisfying to me than a lot of other stuff because those characters have been through so much shit. Yeah like in like in the same. I mean this low keys like he has an experience any of this shit. That real loki like experience. But it's it'll be interesting to see where it goes. Yeah that's the thing man And like i said spoilers For this low key show but he They're dealing with time travel with this show which opens up a whole bunch of stuff. I also feel like it. Muddies the waters when he started doing with time travel. You know x. Men It fucked that franchise all up. Yeah i mean who knows. What's going on with that franchise. But i feel like marvel always handles things very well and and thinks about continuing contingency. Is that right. Yeah continuance do. They always have the new woody continuity. That's yeah I think they'll do a pretty good job of keeping that tight and make sure nothing goes astray. I hope so at least but I i love him. And i really liked that The low key character The actor that place him. He's a tom hilton's very good. he's. I've liked them ever since i introduced them and he you know what i've noticed. He's got a great ability to be. He's he's a great twitter. Yes in any way. That doesn't know what it's weiner is in the pro wrestling business. It's somebody that can go back and forth from being a heel to the face without actually ever having like a huge A huge turn. Yeah you know like hey. Sometimes he's got to go out there and russell and he's got to be the he'll and he can do it Sometimes the twitter has to go out and face a a heel and can be a baby face and doesn't have to do anything remarkable to keep it that way You know he just go out whatever they ask you you do it. And he's basically been that throughout since he's been introduced into the to the mcu right you know. He started off as a bad guy. Switched to a you know. A good guy went back to being a bad guy. Switched back to a good guy. You know like he just kept going back and forth and he's in when you wanna like him you like him and when you wanna hate him you do hate him. He's really he's he's. He's the quintessential twitter. Yeah now and now. You're getting it from the perspective of the low key that never experienced all the stuff after the first avengers ventures. Yeah so he's still very much at that point like i want to take over the world and yada yada yada for has an experience like you see in the show. And this isn't a spoiler watching the He gets to watch his mother's death own death. And you watch how he reacts all that and you're just like okay. Well maybe this guy is just always been kind of misunderstood in like he's just i don't know but yeah i liked it a lot. The own wilson was really good to wilson being. I'm a big guy. I was a big fan of like owen. Wilson and vince vaughn and and wedding crashers was great wedding crashes a great old schools. Great like that crew of guys. I wonder what what happened. Like those guys is like like vince. Vaughn at one point was like the the the most awesome actor like comedic actor. There was some point. These guys make a ton of money and they just kinda start doing stuff. Like vince vaughn was. He's done some stuff like he in the second season that True detective that was okay. He was in the page movie. He played the wwe I and the page movie and that was kind of weird. That's so funny about that movie. It's nothing like the real thing. No as i'm watching it on my i'm like okay. First of all in page right out there was no annex t Second of all. Like i mean they could have at least you some real name since w. w back the movie like yeah instead they were like. Let's make up this guy who is in an exceed like an extended exists. I'm like okay. You couldn't have called Vince vaughn's character robbie brookside. Yeah just something like that and the british accent. Yeah i would have been interesting. I was a big vince vaughn. I'll tell you this if there's one movie you need to watch the vince vaughn as in where he is just the funniest fucking guy in the world is made you ever see made now. It's him and John falvo john. Elway vavra follow swingers. No navy the them to in. They're kind of like trying to be like mob guys. I guess you could say and It's funny as shit man vince. Vaughn is so funny in it. And a big. Vince bond fan. It's finest suit happened. A fabric to like fabra was like a pretty popular actor and then he's decided when days like i'll just direct now and now he's like oh he's just directing a star show no big deal. He huge talent that man. Yeah huge talent but yeah man so started watching low key. I am enjoying it i. I'm looking at this. I'm i'm really looking forward to this to this show. You think there's a reason they didn't just show him again his face the end when they said we're chasing you and the guy was in a hood like do you think that like i don't think there are one hundred percents. Sure it's him. I think. I think they think it's him. Yeah but it's not for sure him. Yeah the unfortunate thing about the show. As i just like. I know that like spiderman and doctor. Strange we're going to delve into like the multi-diverse. I'm like kay well. I know how the show is gonna end. Then it's going to end with the multi verse opening up again because that's kind of how the sell the stuff up but yeah i mean the show is really good. Took me a couple of days to watch it. I don't know why. But when i watched makers low key as a character like wasn't like the. I never really liked most of the four movies up until ragnarok. Yeah so maybe like the second one shit. The second one was terrible. I was okay but it was again. If you took the low key character in the first four and the vendors it's basically the same guy the one note villain whereas then other a different version of key and yeah well they. They gave a lot more character to thor in the third one. Yeah you know it's funnier. It's got cooler music. Yeah someone found out that. Chris hemsworth was funny and they're like let's just run with that. Yeah yeah good looking dude to man fucking hawks twer. Excuse me he's chris. How have you seen some of the pictures from the set. Can jack city my. He's he's gonna get bigger to play hogan he's jack city did he's jack city. He's on all the good stuff all the climb like he's on the gas okay. Guaranteed guaranteed What other show i. My wife has been watching it for like a few seasons now. And i just kind of started watching it just because is in the room in kind of like they. Hooked me was a handmaid's tale. I've heard so much about it. It's just never started it. Yeah so. I started watching I kind of jumped in. Yeah and then. my I of course you can go on youtube and just watch recaps of everything's in leading. You know i was like. I'm not gonna watch this whole thing. I'll just watch these recaps. Pretty good recaps. But you know what the crazy thing about this show is. It's it's scary because you never know this shit could happen like that's the thing it's all about like A is a get a group of religious fanatics takeover like they basically started to and these religious fanatics have like their Their members are like silently in like like mill very political like politicians stuff like that so when they took over this when they did this coup They had the people in place to do it. So then like the us gets broken up and This area with all these religious fanatic circuits called like gallium or something like that and women can't read or write and everybody's A lot of women are sterile and so are men but they blame more on the women and You know natural men shit right. Yeah and So any woman who is fertile is like a hot commodity so they round up these these fertile women and they sent him out to like these kind of like prestigious like houses like They're called commanders. Like rich rich people people. Yeah and they go upon like this thing in the bible where like. I can't remember who had sex with Like they're They're like nanny or some shit like that. And they have a kid and like the bible says like hey this is cool so they they think that okay if they can do it in the bible. They can do in real life based on arnold schwarzenegger's life. Yeah but they These handmaid's they're called handmaid's all they're doing is having sex with their getting raped. Basically they're getting dipped by the commanders. But everybody's like oh it's okay because this is for us to to to reproduce. Yeah and it's just real creepy man like very dark very dark very dark and it something where you look at and you go man. This might happen one day. Like it's scary that You know you could actually see. This may be happening one day. And i'm not saying that. I wanna see you know like it just makes sense. You know a lot of people think scientology is like everywhere. Yeah why people think that they've entered integrated themselves into a lot of situation. So yeah it'd be very similar. It's a it's a good show though man the check Her name's moss. Yes i'll choose on madman like madman. She is so good for showed you she She kills it. Apparently she did a movie not too long ago. Call the invisible man or something like that. Oh yeah watch out yet. Apparently she's great knit and it's like even those her got. Yeah that's pretty weird movie pretty well. I've never seen it. But i saw i saw a lot of people liked it and it seems like one of those movies. Where like you have to cast a good actor because they're basically acting with nothing. Nothing so they have to be good at expressing emotions and whatnot and going insane anyways. How was your weekend. Would you had dinner with my parents and my girlfriend on saturday so that was interesting. And then i saw Devon sunday us was at my parents house saw. The you saw the kind you and He's doing well. They're getting ready for a move. I don't know if that's They're gonna be here all week. I'm going to a padres game tomorrow. So if you wanna get some by ten signed by devon he'll be at the padres game at about five forty we the section. You guys should go there early all. We're going to be there early and instead of trying to get players autographs devonshire autographed by tens that. He hands out to the players. He's funny i. I could totally see devon do. I don't know if you've ever told you serve. But we went when he was the west coast heavyweight champion we went to a minor league baseball game and he went and he like tried to talk to the players about getting him on the field and like at one point he got on the field and they like took. The belton took pictures with it. It was so so stupid but it was so funny. And just something. I imagined devon would do at a major league. Ballpark tilleke tat. Want this sign. Picture of me devon probably looked like a small child field holding a championship. it's with these professional athletes probably did. I don't remember it was so long ago. But yeah how's the how's the west coast West coast wrestling company company. How's that show. Is this saturday. Oh it is up and hemmitt california at the wheelhouse. I know. Mike has show this weekend too so i won't say which showed goto because i'm i mean mike the wrestler. I'm not a wrestler. I would also suggest this. If you're in san diego maybe come to my show. Yeah definitely should do that. And if you're up in the hammett or was that a is that inland empire area. Yeah kind of. It's like an hour forty minutes from here. So i would suggest you go to adam show. Yes it'll be. Rick ellis versus brennan gadston for the west coast heavyweight title in the main event. That'd be good. That'd be a good man who will be involved in that and another match and Moby goes well excellent man. Where's it at. It's called the wheelhouse the wheelhouse in hemmitt. It's kind of like this like skating. Rink type thing where it was outside last time. But this sounds can be inside. It actually has perfect lighting for wrestling. Show oh really has a lighting rig above it. That's like skating rink. See one of those in forever but they have the lights above him so the rings going to be under that and you thought it looked pretty cool so excellent. Excellent man sounds good and this weekend. I will be at the Can't approach show. It's the six one nine the six one nine show. Do you know why it's called six one nine atom because we live in san diego and is going to be june nineteenth. The saturday i. That's basically it. That's but yeah. Yeah he basically right but it's to be at the It's at a dispensary. It is called I guess ember e. m. b. r. amber dispensary And that is located at eighty three hundred center drive lamesa mesa california nine one nine four two are about ten bucks and you want to go over the card absolutely card. Let's see what's happening in the godfather. Give you as a shout out on. I guess he has a podcast or something. Oh yeah well he will be there. I know he's a as kennedy pro- tweeted out. I don't know if there's some some podcasts. He's but yeah he'll be there. I don't know what gimmick he's gonna be doing while he's there i. I assume it's the godfather the godfather but who knows i don't think he'll He'll ever stop being the godfather. Now that's basically the character he's chosen. I'm not even sure if he's allowed to do the other characters outside of wbz 'cause they they might own my own like the papa sean go name maybe all right here we go This is in no particular order by the way ladies and gentlemen One of matches is going to be a table match. It's gonna be damian six six versa. One method tolley aka j two. And then you're going to see El numero uno. That's me if anybody wondering i'll be in a triple threat against the cam gates and charming biagio costanzo. So that'll be fun. We also got jordan crews verse rennie. Marcel all the way from vegas. Remi's coming out. Next match is a Women's match you're going to have a ruby raise verse kimber lee. Yeah okay. kimber. Lee impact wrestling star. All right and progressing star. Kimberly get it. I got it And then you're gonna have a michael hops verse cata murray keita. Murray i think it's keita. That'd be interesting one. Yeah and then You got best ya six verse. Hunter freeman and i think. That's all the matches. The there's no stipulation hundred match no there's no it's not a hardcore street. Fight no nothing. I don't think so. i'll wait. No let me see. The of pro wrestling show will be seeing astro l. It's a street fight off for a second wise that 'cause hunters hardcore gaga's hundred backing off. He is the next mick foley. After all you got to get them going hunters a hardcore guy now. And i think that's all the matches there could be some more but i'm not sure and i can't find the lineup on the On the facebook page. Whatever you'll re tweeted at some point and everyone will see the full card maybe maybe but anyways what else is going on in this wrestling world here anything adam. What's going on with that. Samoa joe schmo does back. Can debbie so. I didn't watch the show. But i you know obviously the interweb and on the line at shows everything That's kinda interesting right because they obviously on the angle that he got released and then he shows up. Surprisingly i think he'd tax Carrying cross kevin crawl. No they brought him in. As just regal's new enforcer oak like he's not apparently he's not wrestling. i don't know if he's i dunno his health status. Maybe that has a lot to do with why he went back He got a lot concussions. He got one weird one where he's filming a commercial and he got a concussion interesting so like i think to me it just seems like he wants more of the the security and the money than anything at this point. I think he lives in florida. So it's probably not drive for him. I'm guessing he's also early forties. Yeah i guess. I got yes if if not forty thirty eight thirty nine. He's probably he's probably looking to go long term with. Yeah don't have even probably not even action. He's probably trying to get a job backstage. Yeah that's what they were doing. They're putting him on commentary. Who's really good at. It was awesome at it. So it's one of those things i'm like. Well i think you go back for whatever you're doing now maybe get a couple more matches then and then you're like all right now. I can move onto that. You know the second phase of your life that he probably wants three as a backstage guy. Maybe a commentator something like i. I don't think his age he really wanted to go to work. The w. style which is a lot of like or on the pavement trying to work in the indies. And all that kind of stuff. He probably wants that security. Yeah i understood for those guys. It's like they're getting a million emails from people they don't know and they're like all right. I guess i'll work this show and then you find out the trash show and you're like god. Yeah that's you know. Work in the indies. That kind of guy. I'm sure has really annoying bothersome so that price a lot to do with why went back to. Yeah but that's good. I mean i. It's weird that they pulled that like. Oh he got released stuff. Well apparently triple h really fought for him to come back. Oh so we actually did get relief. Bill yeah he they all these guys actually got released. Okay so it's not just an angle. Angle accused legit release in. His numb competed ended. And i think triple h really because a triple h is the one who really fought from. I guess to get the job there in the first place So yeah i guess triple h kind of like talked him into coming back and he's like you just work in exte- like you work for me like that's it dear that he's so good at commentary and in ring basically everything he does even thing he did last night like there was a little angle at the end where he choked out adam cole and it was very much like coal pushed him. His little subtle like seemed get annoyed. Choked him out and he just walked away. Yeah and he doesn't do anything he's he's really talented. Yeah i agree with you on that. I agree with you Big news in the indy world is in southern california and the southwest basically is summer slam weekend. Debbie is having a multi day tryout in vegas where summers lansing be held and was kind of anyone right. I could apply for it I am not sure is the first time i've really seen them do that. Or they post the thing out on like twitter for everyone to see like i know of the website that you'd like to recruit website has send stuff in. I know about all that. But i've never. I don't think i've ever seen them go. We're doing a tryout this weekend yes sir. You're you're correct on that. I don't believe i've seen that either. It's weird that they would do that after they've just fired a bunch of people are like or looking for talent like wait be had a bunch that you just got rid of. Yeah i guess it's more low income more low cost talent though. If they get off the tryouts possibly also you. You know even when you do release people you do. Gotta keep feeding that roster. Because you know you never know who's gonna be the next person to break out and not that a lot of those people that are released got a fair shake as far as like you know being used but it's one of those things where you you gotta show whoever need to show their. I'm the guy to get behind. You know i'm the guy to get behind and Yeah man so. That's pretty interesting that they're having got a tryout vegas i do i do Encourage wrestlers to go to go Experience it You know what the you can go online and sign up and register. And i think maybe they're probably going through a lot of those like apple. I guess it's kind of like an application you fill out. I guess they're looking for you. Know southwest racers. What i'm guessing is because it costs money to fly everybody to orlando right across the country. The world even so. I'm wondering what i doubt they're doing i. I'm pretty sure this is not one of those trials where you go and pay to try out which some companies do not pay hundred fifty bucks two hundred bucks. You try out for them. Whatever a lot of people call it just a cash grab but I don't think wb obviously if it got out that w was doing that. I think they would get shitty. Yeah publicity out of it. So what i'm thinking is it's probably it's an invitation you know they're not gonna make you pay but you probably gotta get yourself there. I'm guessing that yeah and if you're gonna try to get yourself to vegas that weekend i would book everything now. Even if you don't know for sure you're going to get the call. Yeah because again. It's the same we can pack ya fight. Yeah it's going to be a big week. The hotels are going to be more expensive than normal. The flights are probably me more expensive than normal. Like so like. But but i mean if you live in san diego like the trial goes well maybe an extra on that raw which is like a two days later. Yeah you know. There's a there's a smackdown in phoenix that weekend too. So i don't know i don't know how that works. They're doing to try out. But we'll here's the thing. So summerslam is on saturday right. Yeah so it's going to be a multi day tryout so i'm guessing they're probably gonna do wednesday thursday friday and i don't know if like they're holding it at say like f s w out there or if they're just going to rent a warehouse or like a A banquet hall somewhere in one of the casino or the hotels. Yeah and put up a couple of rings. So i don't know like how that's working out Interesting more likely they're gonna hold in big venue like some kind of like you said the convention center or something like that. Yeah so they can have as many people as they're gonna probably have. They're going to have multiple rings and all this other shit. Yeah but i encourage people to go trout. Even this is a lot of people thinking. I'm not ready yet. The fuck who who gives a fuck you ready. Yeah can you bump can do roles do you have cardio entering. Cardio yeah okay. Then you're ready to go 'cause that's what a lot of people whenever i encourage people. Hey go go do a tryout in not just every like when new japan held a tryout when evolving hold tryouts any place. That's you know. Got a big name like that. And they're holding tryouts. Go check it out if it's like a local needed promotion that's a hey hundred dollars come tryout fuck you that that no bullshit you know. Some of the local like you know promotion. That's trying to pull that shit like. Yeah you know that's that's not cool but the A lotta people. Think like man. They think the only people that go to these trials or get invited to these trials are the best of the bests shouts. Eric roberts is not true And in that my first realization is when i went to mike. My first may try out. I was like man. I'm going w. we try it like duke. You know. I hit him a lot about it and duke was at a trial. Where like adam cole. Was there Roderick strong you know basically all the old old. Pwg rosser was there. So i'm thinking like holy fuck. I'm going out there with them. You know like that's that's what my trout experience to be to be be like trying to compete with like these. The top of the top indie guys. It's not true man. it's not true. There's a lot of guys that that are there. And once they get in the ring you're like holy crap man like this guy. He's he's no better than me he's no better than me and actually i think i'm better than this person. Yeah so anybody out there go you know. Fill out the application. You know e mail whoever you need the email try and do this and jump on this trial because if anything it's just a good experience to go and see what tryouts are all about. What the atmosphere is is like. Who are the other wrestlers there. How do they work You know what's the whole structure. What are they looking for You know maybe you might get some good feedback on what you need to work on. And then you go work on it and then you try and get on another tryout and you show them that. They worked on it and they go. Oh this person's coach -able yeah. That's that's awesome and you get on their radar and then you get on the radio by the way right now as much people probably like on printed on their radar. Nobody outside of guys that had been working. Tv for the last year are on their radar at all so you go in there and getting on their radar. You're going to be higher up the normal. Yep you know what i mean like. 'cause they've never they'll only be able to have the only guys signed really recently. Have been guys that wrestled and impact guys at russell ring of honor like that because they don't know like who's out here who's working shows are here they don't you know stuff like that and now you can go out and show them like. Hey look this is what i can do. Yeah yeah man so you know i. I encourage people to go do that. I i always i. That's the biggest. That's one of the most frustrating thing is when i'm my k. Go go fill out a trade on this. When i talked to the other wrestlers in san diego. I always tell them like. Hey try and get on this. Try and get on this this. Try out or whatever the opportunity to be and they're like oh. I don't know man. I don't think i'm ready yet and it's like fuck off. I'm telling you which means. I think you're ready like go do it. I'm gonna i literally just said this is the first time. Seen something like this like them tweeting this ever so that means that these opportunities don't come often. Yeah so even if this is for like referees tunnel of its wrestlers i. It's the yoon if you're just like a referee local refs apply for it. Maybe maybe you'll get there and there's a raft to there have been wrestlers. He did try. Outs got turned into arrests. They also lost their minds. But you know other. You know you'll job real talk. I'm a freshman. I'm a. i'm a wrestler right but if debbie he came at me and said hey You interesting being refereed. I'd be like hell. Yes i am absolutely. I don't know why you wouldn't. Because the referee career will be a lot longer than a the in ring professional wrestling career. Just on your body. Yeah even if your job just turns into like you're the ring with rinker. I'm like your rink ruin your wrath and you're probably getting paid over one hundred thousand dollars a year there long enough. Sounds good to me. More than i've ever made it any job i've ever worked at you know i'll never get offered the job. 'cause i think i'm too tall. Yep you are so they they absolutely never offer me like a ref position. You've i was a wrestler. So that sucks but i would absolutely. They're really going to be a rafic. yes it do. Whatever the fuck you do. It makes sense though. Because i've been to some promotions where like the referee comes walking up and the referee is like gigantic. And i'm like you're the referee your bigger than both of us combined. That's why feel so uncomfortable. Like when i manage like when a managing rick ellis now danny. I'm like i'm like a foot taller than him. Like an every video. We've done so far. We're always sitting. So i i'm not completely towering over him and like if like when we go to the ring i'm going to stand as far back away from his i can because it's like a aesthetic thing if you see me and i'm supposed to be the chicken shit like agent and he's the wrestler layup. Why why would you ever take him seriously. If i'm standing there. And i and i can't do shit. Yup i agree with you on that. Very yeah you get psychology one. Oh one yeah. Psychology one on one but anyway so Yeah any of you Young wrestlers are Even seasoned vets that Are still nervous about doing. Trout's go try it out man. Go try it out. It's practice man vance practice and everyone's getting getting signs. So why want you to why. A hewlett also with all these shows. You know obviously More shows have been happening. with the restrictions lightning up. And now we're you know we're good to go Shows are more frequent. Obviously the i worked more these past few weekends than the past year. We've had wrestling talk about on this podcast every week now for the first time in forever and i saw i saw a discussion come up again. This comes up every once in a while About getting paid new this wisconsin wrestling is was coming right so a lot of these shows that have been happening more students shows. Yeah you know if a Promote a arresting school they hold a student shows so that their their students can get reps. Yes right which is important which is very important and obviously You know this discussion happens on social media it pops up at least once a year right and you know people were there was a- i don't know if it was a discussion but we were talking about. Hey you know like student shows. These students getting paid. You know like they should be getting paid as wrestlers. Which i understand where you're coming from. I understand that. Here's the one like argument. I have On the wrestling school or promoters. I guess you could say is. There's not a lot of money in these shows right. These are these are more like shows where like maybe like family and friends will show up something like that or maybe it's something real small scale so the money isn't really coming in through the door and usually these shows any money made goes to the wrestling school. Yes right to the rent. The electric bill water bill. Who knows right insurance so it it it. All the money that is is is gathered goes towards you know trying to Goes back into the school so when you talk about like you know student shows. These students shows are setup for these kids that had been learning how to be professional. Wrestlers can actually get out there in front of a crowd. Even if it's not that big of a crowd there. I it's it's a it's a It's a scrimmage. Right it's a scrimmage. Hey let's go see what she can do and That's that's the benefit of doing these shows saying. Hey man you can do all the drills you can do all the practice matches in front of nobody but now it's go time now you don't have you know all that time to talk about it in the back and to Get out there and a. Let's say you mess up during the match. Well if it was just a training match you know. Hey fox that sox you know like you know all that. Yeah little shit happens. They stop sometimes in the middle of the match at a during a training match if they bought. They'll just stop like no this is. This is one done now. You have one shot to get through this whole match six minutes when opportunity one opportunity. That's it so good. It's the experience that you gain from this when i first got into When i first got into pro wrestling and i started doing shows I think maybe like pretty early. I had a match against famous. Be and famous be is a wrestler. Who was like out of the l. a. area. I believe and he was on lucia underground for for awhile. He's a really talented wrestler. And i remember. He told me he goes listen. There's three things that you want to get out of a match or not out of bookings and you're not you're not gonna get all three but you figure it out okay. So the three things you're looking for is experience exposure or money. Yup right or money. These are the three things now. Are you going to get i. If you find all three you found the fucking jackpot but you're you're rarely going to find all three. You might just get one out of it right. So let's say some really small crappy promotion hits me up and says hey mike. We'd like you to come russell for us. You just want you to wrestle one of our students and Basically we're in Nowheres ville usa right and they go. Hey by the way we'll give you thirty bucks. I go That's not really worth it to me. That's not really worth it to me. You're telling me that. I'm going to wrestlemania students. So i'm not gonna get an experience out of this really. I'm not gonna you know. I might not learn a thing like this. This this person that i'm wrestling isn't going to really teach me anything. No and i don't want to sound like an asshole saying that. But i'm just saying like you might learn something but think you're an asshole for. I think that's pretty much like someone who's been wrestling for. Seven years is not pry. Learn anything from someone who's wrestling for in seven months. You know you never know you're telling me you know i'm wrestling in nowheres ville usa so the exposures not going to be there right. So what do i need out of this. I need to get paid right so in that. Particular instance money. That's what you should be focusing on like cake. I need as much any money Okay now let's say this some uh some small promotion in nowheres ville. Usa says hey. Hey hey mike we'd like you to Come wrestle for us. And i go kay well. Let's talk about this Who would you have me wrestling. And they go Let's see you'll wrestle against bob. Holly i don't know. I'm just saying bobby ten bucks man or else. No let's say you know we're gonna we're gonna put job against al snow but the thing is we can only give you thirty bucks and And that's about it. Will i go excuse me. You want me to wrestle else. No one of the greatest trainers in pro wrestling guy with i'm guessing like thirty to forty years of experience a lot of knowledge. He's probably forgot more than i've learned. He could probably teach me something. Yes i will take that match. I will take that match okay. The money isn't good. Yeah the exposure is is is nothing because like i said it's nowheres ville usa but you had me wrestling a guy like al snow. Who got incredible amount of knowledge and experience in the ring. And i guarantee. I'm gonna learn something out of this. Yes yes i will take the lesser pay. I will not worry about the exposure. Because all i wanna do is wrestle al snow and get that knowledge right and hopefully get a little bit rub off. Yeah all right excellent. now let's say let's say super dragon calls me and says hey mike This is super dragon. Real name and i want you to come wrestle for pwg. I want you to come. Wrestle pedia pre. Wg now everybody we know pwg when you get booked on pwg your name automatically is up there. Yeah i it goes from middle of the pack. Two like top of the pack. You okay and and let's say dragon goes. Hey mike can only pay twenty bucks. And i go. I don't give a shit. Alpha can do it for free. I'll pay you fifty bucks. Yeah i don't wanna i don't i'm not gonna rant on how i know this But i've been told by multiple people that guys that are legitimate. Were legitimate stars. Got paid nothing. Yeah they got. They got the flight. Yep got guys would work for freedom for pwg and obviously. There's no issue with that nope because of who you're gonna wrestling you're gonna interesting. Somebody good and the exposure is insane. Yes the the exposed that that right there the exposure is probably the biggest thing that pwg provides. Yeah you're going to get experience out of it. Depending on who you wrestle. I don't know what the payout is but like i said the biggest thing there is exposure. You're gonna get big exposure because pwg man that's that's probably the number one. Indie am i guess like yeah yeah they they announced they're coming back and i bet when the tickets go on sale. I bet they're going to be sold out in like two minutes. Exactly it's legit. It's legitimately wear like anyone on the west coast. Should strive to be. Because that's where you'll get noticed the quickest. Oh one percent and you know. That's you know you could choke to show in oak. Fucking william regal's there. Oh seth rollins is here like you. Don't you never fuck in the cast of modern families. There i have to shows. And i've just like turn them like. Oh there's a fucking celebrity. Nobody nobody how these people at these shows like you. If these were walking down the street they've got like eight hundred people coming autograph but like fucking leonardo di caprio ship to. Pwg show sat front. Row we'll talk to him because they're just like we get while you're here we're gonna leave you alone. Yeah anyway so. And then like i said if you find a place that offers to those three. Yeah that's really good. If you get all three stay with that promotion as long as you can. 'cause that's the you know that those three things are what you're looking for but rarely are you going to get all three. Yeah rarely you might even get to so when you when you when you are getting hit by promotions. Find out okay. This booker is offering me this. What do i get you know. What what is the best asset that this promotion can give me. Is it money exposure or experience and then so going back to the student shows. Obviously the money's not there money's not there is their exposure. maybe maybe you know A little bit of that but the experience of getting in the ring and actually just working a match is Is the biggest thing that these students shows Offer yeah Because man. Before i debuted i would go to training. You know i. Would you know we do our our our You know whole thing you know you the training and then we would have practice matches at the end of the day or the end of the end of the of the training session but it will you know in all all in all it was like three hours of of in ring work right so then when i debuted in the rumble i went out there and i think actually jeff dino actually gave some time and i appreciate that he didn't. I think i was out there like eighteen minutes. Which is pretty good for fucking brand. New debut between people go in their debut anything not many so Hold on one second and cronin with just hit a home run sweep But it was very different because you go out there for eighteen minutes and you're done that's it and then following show. I had a tag match. And i think we maybe went like ten minutes but it can minutes and you're done and you go afterwards you go. That's it that's it. Like i don't have to do another match. I don't have to do any more drills. I don't have to do anything you know like you know ten minutes and you're done that's it so you know with argument when you have student shows. Yeah if you're if you're a student wrestler chances are you're not gonna get paid if you do that's great man and shout out to the promotion gives you money but the thing is those students shows. You're not really going there to get paid. you're going there to get experience. Yeah and You know. I see people complaining about you. Know not getting paid or not getting booked on on on student shows and then they complain that oh yeah you guys you got you. Students that are on these shows are getting paid right and it's like hey man they're just trying to experience bro. Yes trying to experience you know i would never hit a school and say hey i s you're doing the student shows. Let me. I'm going to you know you want me to come work for you. But i'm a charge. Ya a hundred bucks two hundred bucks or whatever and and come on that that school. They're not even getting that much money into the door for those students shows. You know so you gotta understand certain you gotta understand certain things. It's kind of. I don't know. I guess you could maybe put it underneath paying your dues. I think i think part of the argument has always been that like while there are good situations like with the student shows that love love because it's run by somebody who knows what he's doing and there's a lot of schools quote unquote that are run by people who know what they're doing and they're not paying people and then even when they start wrestling they're not paying people and they've been wrestling for a while and they're not paying people and i again for me. It's like when i kind of started. Training and stuff like getting paid twenty bucks was like laughable like nobody was getting paid twenty bucks got paid ten bucks for like sweet. So i'm like. I guess that needs that obviously needs to change that mentality but like yeah. I mean if you're just starting out like you can't expect to make like whatever the going rate is these days right off the bat because it like you said it's all about the business aspect of it like are you bringing some of this money back no like as a as a student. You're not like maybe we'll bring your family to the show but I i s- i see what you're saying but i also see the counter. If like the promoter is kind of like just abusing the students but in that situation like with level up the experience is also the fact that avow coach vouch by bennie to any promotion out. There is probably worth way more than a million other people who run schools out here. Yeah hem talent. No my camden is good. You want on your show. It's my camden book. Like oh you want jordan crews during cruises great put him on your show hunter put on your show and i think that helps more than like a like a guy. That kind of has a name. But not really. I think that's a little different. Also here here's the thing with these students shows okay. They obviously they can offer you money right because they don't have the money to offer you Well what can we do out of this. How about this. We're going to film the show We're gonna get you match footage. Tell me what's more important in early career. Twenty thirty bucks for work. A show or match footage out match footage. What you need to work on and also chemically. Now you have something to send out exactly. You have something to send out to people like. Hey this is how. I work And that's also another thing. Let's say the monetary like in this is just the in general right. Let's say a promoter hits you up and they say hey. We don't have a lot of money. We don't have a lot of money. We really want you to work for us. You know but what can we do. We can't offer you too much money. What can we do. Yeah okay well. Can you offer me a solid opponent. And we have one of our guys. He's worked for a while. He's not a well known name but he's also not like a student. He's he's been working for a few years. Okay all right. Excellent all right well Let's see can you get me match footage. Yes we yeah we can. We can get it to you. Excellent that right there is worth the. There's there's A value in that footage. Because now i can send it out. Or i can put it out online for people to watch and maybe you know maybe somebody's scrolling on a on a social media one day and they just happened to watch a short clip of of what i posted an. You know they notice you go. Hey this person's pretty good and they start following you and maybe they buy a shirt maybe they become a bigger fan of you. They start buying your merchandise stuff. So don't just look at it as dollars and cents. Look at it. As where can i get value from. It might not just be straight up cash. It might be experience exposure. It might be a match footage Yeah to a certain point. Where like match footage as a matter you anymore. Yeah and all that matters is money. And then i understand. I understand that too because once you get to a certain level in wrestling. It's like all right well. I don't need to work. Those certain shows anymore and i get that mindset to but then there are guys that don't care and we'll do it because they know that them being on the show and then giving them information will help you like the gang girls of the world like just being on a show is going to help you learn something so there are certain guys that do that. And there's certain guys that don't and i don't think either one of them wrong. Yeah i mean try and find value somewhere. Yeah it might not just be money. Try and go okay. What can i get this. Can i get this. You know in the long in the long run. This might help me out. Yeah Yeah that's basically what had to say about that kind of stuff but or what about this okay. Let's say this student show right and they go The promoter or the owner of the school goes. Hey guys. i'm going to do something for you. We obviously we can't. We can't offer you payment right. We can't offer you payment because we don't have it and we don't know if how many people are gonna show up to the student show. So i can't guarantee you money right What about this guy for everybody that comes in here. Let's say You get let's say you have a pretty good showing you get a hundred and fifty people in there and You know how much tickets are. Yeah ten bucks five bucks. Whatever we make will knock off the monthly payment. Yeah right that works too. So let's say you normally pay a one hundred dollars right a hundred dollars a month to train at a place. What if they said. Hey whatever whoever comes into the door however much money we make will disperse that amongst the wrestlers. The the the people that are all the card or the students. Whatever and next thing you know. You're next month. Payment is seventy five dollars right okay. We didn't pay you cash in hand but the thing is we we knocked off a few bucks on your On your monthly Dues dues there you go. That could work. Yeah but you never. I'm just suggestion. I don't know if but again like i said like if you are going to on them nowhere this as specifically but like dr. Tom and kane have the school out there. If i'm on one of their student shows am i going to be upsetting get paid. I'm like no no dr. Tom kaine or watching my match. And they're going to give me feedback. Yup like those are two guys that obviously what the fuck they're doing like the same way at the level up school east you guys know what the fuck you're doing so you're going to get good information and then the shows are going to be good and then you're gonna have someone who can vouch for you who's respected in the business to me. That's more important than twenty dollars. Okay now get to fill gas in my car. Nine half a tank at this point. Yeah here's some guests sometimes man sometimes even when you get you know a booker promoter will ask you. Hey what's your what's your rate which are your rate. And let's say you give it to him and they go. Hey man we can only you know. Let's say they can only offer something. That's maybe twenty dollars less than what you asked for. You look at it and you go. And it's kinda goes both ways but is twenty dollars that much to maybe burn bridge probably not probably not right so also you know we talk about what that. Pwg thing where like. There's some cats that don't get paid a lot of money to work. Know where they make money at right. Indies merch mircha. I've i've had a couple conversations with guys in the past like for bookings and stuff and like they would just go. Okay well how do a seminar and we split that and that's another way to make up for the difference in what they're asking you can offer them because obviously it's different your assegai would is rate is he's gonna give you the highest fucking rate possible. There's always whereas always negotiate that that kind of stuff. It's like anything wiggle room. There's always wiggle room because everyone who's always gonna start high and they're going to work their way down. That's like how we split this. How split that above the flight. You pay this and that there's always ways to work around that. The wrestler wants to make the most money they possibly can. Yeah the promoter wants to pay you as least amount as you can as they can. Some people look at that as scumbag. But that's any business any any that doesn't mean like now if the point is like that's the lowest you're willing to pay and it's like super low guys asking for a hundred and you're like i'll pay you five. Yeah that's that's a scumbag. You're you're way off. That's just a scumbag promoter. But like if he's like all right. I can pay you forty and you want one hundred like. I'm sure there's a way to work that to where then works for both people. Yeah usually. that's the way it works. Yeah and if you can't come to An agreement or a And you just don't yeah just can't you know what it's not gonna work out this time and and i always try and be respectful always trying to be respectful You know if a promote if you if promoter asked what your rate is and give it to them and they say that they can't pay that and say. Hey you know what i understand. Yeah you know it's cool. Don't worry about it. Maybe next time maybe down the road sometime always keep it professional Don't when you go out and you start bashing people Promoters on the internet. Don't think you're just bashing that promoter promoters you're going to see that and go that's who this wrestler is so let's say i get on this rest. Let's see i try and book this wrestler and maybe i'm trying to accommodate him but something goes wrong. Something maybe i can't do for him. It's going to bash me like that on social media you know. So why would i even wanna want to even attempt to get in bed with this person when they're already talking shit about the last person they were in bed with or you know. I don't know the sucks because there is a bad rep set a bad rupp's that aren't you know shitty people. Yeah but because they did that. One thing you're like okay. I guess that's who they are as a person. Yeah so it's like. I'm not going to book them. Then but you know it's for it is unfortunate. It's very much a business but there's a lot of people that kind of just get mad about stuff that they really shouldn't like in terms of like they're like if you're like self evaluate yourself a little better for some people like her is what you're asking for is that is that logical. You know what i mean like. Especially i i know now is different because we're coming off the pandemic and whatnot but yeah i see that all the time too and weird because i feel both ways like i'm like yeah i don't think the guy gets you get paid twenty thirty dollars. I feel like that's a little shitty now especially with the way he see some of these shows you see where they're running and you're like okay. I knows guys got some money. Like why is he offering. But then i'm also like but we don't know everything so there might be a reason why he got this nice venue they might have gotten for free at the legion hall in reseda. Pwg never paid for that venue. Is the bar the bar and you see a drunk. people got those shows. They met a lot of money off those. Pwg shows the bar. Yeah man. I i agree You know no. You're worth no you're worth but also you know be real. Yeah don't don't somebody with one year experience. Don't be don't be out there being like. Hey i want three hundred. I want five hundred. You're probably not gonna find unless you're unless you're you know the second coming of of stone cold. Steve austin yeah in the wrestling business. I doubt you're going to get that. And especially since i can especially since there were debbie. Debbie guys the made of that now. Who weren't asking for that when they were on the indies. Yeah so you need to calm down with the stuff you know all we. That's the thing man. Always look at it as a business. You know even employers right normal day job nine to five job or whatever kind of job there is when they put a posting for job opening. They put the least amount they wanna pay the least amount of what they want to pay. And when you apply for that job you know you might ask for more but understand that that the they're not gonna come so far up. Yeah that it's it's. It's you know insanity you gotta meet somewhere around that you know what they're asking for anyway. It's like the people that like always complain. I haven't. I've been in this job for song. I've never gotten a raise. Have you asked for one no war. They're not just going to one day walking. Here's a raise for you know you have to ask for it. Yeah they got other stuff. They're like hey. Can i get a raise. Okay what do you think is fair. How about this will. I can do this now. You gotta raise. Yeah but if you don't ask for from is if you just wait for if you wait for shit to calm like it's never gonna come especially if you work at a big corporation like they're not going to get a raise if you don't ask yep man anyways that was my seminar good. That was my seminar. We can split the seminar and he's by seminar fees and then you can get paid this much and then guys you can me I'll take three dollars then mo benway three dollars all right. What else man. What are going on for the podcasts. Were starting only fan. That's how no hey man. And he got to be nudity. Nine but kept that it's got no man mystique to and isn't it weird that like nowadays here only fans and you automatically think pornog- you're like oh you're you're you're it's porn which talking about. I think like thea trinidad started one. I think everyone freaked out and i was not. I don't think that that's porn. We just like hosting herself her day to day stuff and probably like some good looking pictures over and stuff like that. Yeah but anyways. What else going on man. What else do you wanna talk about. Think that's about it Everything's kind of go back for wrestling. Tickets are going on sale for stuff for shows. Yeah stuff look forward to w. w. is running a show in like a tennis stadium in new york really. Yeah in august. And i'm like that's cool. It's it's different like that's the one thing i'd like to see. I'd like to see some new venues like there's there's only so shows you can see from madison square garden couple. You run like a weird random baseball stadium like just see see. What if it's just don't do it again. Experiment with shit. That was kinda cool like back in the day when like debussy w would run like though springboard though shows are so awesome. Obviously like you'd have kevin. Nash jumped in the water. And stop having fun. But like those are like. Hey this is different. Yeah even remember their last. Wcw shows like one of those. Yeah you know flair and sting wrestling with shirts on an shit But like that it's cool man. It changes up to the look. You know chains up to look because every every show kind of looks the same same building like you're in a different arena with a different crowd. But do you really know you really don't because it all looks the same. See running stuff and like a tennis stadium. That's like you can see that. It's not normal stadium like that. Might be cool to watch. But i agree. We'll see i agree. I don't. I haven't really been watching wrestling so i don't really know what's going on so neither have i neither have i. There was some other mark. Henry thing with braun strowman this week that everybody freaked out about. He's like trying to get a braun strowman booked on aws lot of people that kind of like were saying that they shouldn't bring him in. Because like i brought this up to you a couple of weeks ago. I said the reason people are going to say braun strowman good. Aws because of his beliefs and his political leanings and whatnot and sure shit. Aaron was like or call. People were like you should bring them in because this and this and everyone was like your stupid if you think that he doesn't bring any value at all to them he would absolutely bring value to them. What is what is stroman is. He disguised right wing. Believe he's got right wing beliefs. He's very like anti all this stuff. That's going on right now. He was going to like with an anti anti the the mask anti the cova and all this other stuff. He's very much right wing kind of guy and he very blunt how how is and you know for me like i said million times who cares like fifty years ago. Did you know that your neighbor was republican. No because it wasn't a conversation. Now your whatever your political beliefs is become your personality. Hate that but no so. Yeah so everyone was kinda like. I was happy because a lot of people that were like. If you don't think that he has an evaluation idiot because like people were saying he's not talented and i'm like a lot of you saying that is because of the way he believes shit because if you watched him three years ago and you believe that he has no value at all. You just don't know you're watching has plenty of value. Especially now he can come in and be anti-india guy. Come in and be the big monster. Just shits all over like all the indy wrestling and what and he. He'll which is what you want. You want real. He'll yeah no. You're true i i i don't know you know i don't know like you'd come in and and ratings would really changed that much with with Eighty w but he's not he's not a ratings mover but like he's definitely a guy that could come in and you could tell a good story with him i if you figure out the right plan for him. Hey man you might have something. Yeah he's a he's gonna dwarf like the whole fucking roster besides like a handful of people but But i'm also the belief that they need to at some point soon. Go on like a hiring freeze for a little bit because at some point you're going to get to that point where. Wb got to where they have way too many people and not enough spa tony. Kahn even said this before he started. He's like you can't push everybody nope. I don't wanna bring all these people. Because i don't want all these people to sit on the bench for so long and they've kinda got that point where they brought and andrade a couple of weeks ago and it was just like. Oh yeah he's here. Yeah i'm like. Oh that's one of the one of the best wrestlers in the world. He's just like an afterthought and i'm like yeah. Just chill for a minute like stop bringing in all the debited guys. You know the guys weren't gonna russell you don't need to pay more henry. He's going to be a good backstage. Go backstage influence. But i still think it's funny. That two of the biggest guys on their payroll doing commentary stuff. Yeah and it's like it. That's one of those things where you're just like and it's so weird to like. They just came in. They must have been getting paid a lot of money to do that because like i. I don't know slow down with like it's funny because it's very like it's very Wrestling nowadays. Yeah where the biggest guys is behind the counter or behind the microphone. Commenting doing like you know. Play-by-play color pretty interesting. And you know it's it is good to have guys like christian big show and mark henry in your company but for the reasons of the backstage where they can make they can give like advice advice and feedback but not a dick about it where they can kind of like look. This is like this is how this should be done. This is how you're doing this wrong. Yada yada but like do it a non shitty way. But you know we'll see we'll see when things go back to normal healthy because you know w is going to have a lot of pressure on them now when things go back on the road because they've actually got real competition now. Did i hear like they're like debbie might not be how shows anymore Well i think initially when they come back. I think they're doing i. They're doing a how show summer slam weekend. Oh i think on that sunday. I think they're doing some show on that sunday. But i'm not a hundred percent sure but i mean yeah eric bischoff said over and over again the how shall actually lose your money. Yeah so like maybe for a while. They won't but it also gives the guys reps back in the day. I feel like hash. How shows had to make money though man. You want a the first. How show everyone to my first wrestling show ever that mother fucking place was packed. Sold out of course. This was like nineteen ninety nine but the past few how shows that i've gone to you can definitely see the you know. The attendance isn't what it should be. And you just never know what like rents on the buildings are. It's like that's why they never run msg anymore. Apparently it's way too expensive and like the barclay center so much cheaper and so much more worth running. I'm like yeah. But the ambiance of the garden i think is more important to people the guard what it costs you like garden. You got paid a billion dollars for the wb network you can. You can run a show an ms. She wants a year. yeah. I think you'll be okay. All right man. What else do we have talked about. Anything nothing kills anything else. He didn't get any questions this week. What didn't didn't react to my great thing. I posted this weekend with that. I posted the picture of roman throwing dominic out of the ring and i said when anyone tells mike cannon he does jujitsu By the way yeah. I don't mind people. Think i. But i don't know what it was a funny picture of roman throwing dominic asking dominance face like i do hate the fact that they like pulled the camera away. So you don't see dom land she'll be so glad is over when they go back to live crowds like i am so tired of the o. L. e. through mothering. Wenhui fucking didn't now dominic would've fucking broken his back if you would legit done that. Spike dudley did it spike dudley. Today mike where spike dudley. Today i don't know i wonder what's fight dailies out to see. Probably he seems like a guy that had like a great backup plan. Was he a teacher or something. Yeah basic financial adviser somewhere teacher somewhere. I hope so. I hope so all right man. I think we're gonna wrap it up. Sounds good because I don't know what else talk about right now. Not not much talk about. Yeah must week next year. I'll give you some feedback on going to the baseball game with devon there you go you a breakdown of that and then This weekend saturday can pro six nine located at eight thousand three hundred center way. I think i got that right. I think there was a five wasn't eighty three zero five hold on. I'm trying to find your fast Eight hundred senator dr lamesa. That's san diego. Go check it out if you guys want to. More information go to canada pro wrestling on facebook and You know as usual cards subject to change. And adam is going to be on saturday at the wheelhouse in hemet california for the west coast wrestling company. Things called nobody. Does it better or something like that. No he does. My gimmick is supposed to be anti-company so anti company. I'm not supposed to know all right. Oh and also I will be at global lucho. Lebron on a june twenty-seventh this month. Oh that's gonna be up in escondido. I guess that place called escondido body art. That's going to be Eighteen ninety one east village or east. Sorry highs village. Eight thousand ninety one east valley parkway escondido. I will be taking on. Just asked him how to say this the other day to. They can't remember exactly. How is that how you officially knew that india wrestling in san diego's back. What we start getting messages about doing random lucia shas. Now andy wrestling's back. Maybe i will take it. On primo haniel tribeca do that also known as hyde back in the day. Okay well yeah. As i said i was like. How do you see that name meaning. He was primo hanyu. I believe i saying that right. Believe i'm saying that right anyways He's formerly known as Hide he's Santino guy He's a great kid Sounds so familiar. But i can't figure out why looking forward to working with him. He's a good guy. I like him. And that's it man. I think that's it and you have any closing words No just if you're in your near hemmitt go to that show. If you're near san diego mike show yes. I'm sorry i was going to ask you a question because you've kind of have more of a sports related now it's It's southern california. It's wrestling related. But i'll ask you afterwards. Okay 'cause i would have brought it up on air. But i'm not sure if If you know this person anyways you are the tip. you gotta take the whole I with this often. Pro gotta call doc com talk. You're gonna die.

wrestling Wbz san diego vince vaughn padres usa mir manno Big duke phillies california Benny boy Teke manso sam twitter Salmon bucky adam cole tom hilton debbie robbie brookside
Sad travel day

The big d zone

12:17 min | 10 months ago

Sad travel day

"Well i did take a nap yesterday but was unable to sleep last night at all. My nerves are just killing me. Even though i did take a nerve nergal just now but today but Today start my journey to say goodbye to my best friend and the one that i mentor. Taro jackson on tarot jazz prey to i will believe the conference of the second palace to constantly be an emotional time for me Flight at two. Oh five report. One forty size. Both be heading to the airport. At twelve o'clock my boss is opposed to pick me up at about eleven twelve eleven. I thought it was a level. Three but I call customer care and ask them what time of my pick-up they told me that it was or eleven eleven ten or twelve so i will double check that still go probably not gonna clock blow. No five and i had to keep the phone on. Until you know the buffets elite. Come for me. What i will already be downstairs laden so i want to be ready by the time. The bus car deer and i'm i'm not going to be a heavy packer because A bigger bag. Even though i'm only going for today tomorrow and then returning friday. And i'm all needed it not bad because delta charge for a bag which is thirty five dollars and off money went to the flight and hotel yet a flight as a secured hotel leaving me nothing to get the bag done or why the that might have wanted to do. So yeah so the crazy part about it is i have to use the united because if i will use my original airline that i like southwes- i would had to go away. My wave to jif k. Zone island had our flight than i had another hour to travel from new york city to new jersey. An also add. I get to penn station than i had to travel from north east orange. Get to the hotel. The upper already be jet lagged and tired and all i saw had them lineup taking united. And you know take it from there. I had to dig in for now. And i am going to be worried that if it's gonna be a quiet flight in if it's full and dumb the amassed up with and thou- let us a chance. I'm gonna take to my friend. Because i worked with him. I meant at him and you know. Hang out with him many occasions. I'm doing this for him. And i got an update. Maybe not the one that. I wanted to hear but My friend did have diabetes of course But we don't know if it is diabetes. 'cause i was told dead. He died peacefully in asleep meaning. He went to bed. One i and then woke up in heaven dow was told oh my god because i have sleep apnea okay and strangely enough. The hort to the theology is keeping for some reason. Because they're time that i stopped leaving at night and villainous happen when a best friend died suddenly just like my wife did five years ago is like tracking really trashy saw today. Now won't be doing as mas podcasting at the airport. I would like to because being a fact that i had to have two apps and phone. Don't like it when it's a see storage. I have to have the new jersey transit up which might tickets are on there. And i had to have the lip dab which i got twenty. Thank god i think the money to get me to the hotel. Because god forbid now. Don't tell don't even do airport shuttles so not only add to give back and forth to dull tale back and forth to the train station now. I had to go back and forth funeral but probably be cost less know being a fat that already be. He's done and I've been nervous all this weekend. I mean say. As i found out that he passed. I'll talk to find out about the funeral. dave. Get about the information until sunday thankfully. I did have the money that i could pay for tonight and to me In i played it till monday. I had rest money to pay for tomorrow though. They're going to double vacations me so hopefully. I could still be in the same room when i go to the funeral on thirty wanting what tomorrow morning i should and But i will be broadcasting. What they get to the hotel. I'll just let you know. I got to the hotel and everything like that and i don't know if i had to temporarily take all the youtube so that i can keep new jersey transit and also the Lift avoca lease. Get to the hotel. So i might do that. Temporarily dab temporarily do that so they won't be no update until i ashley. Get to the hotel. That's why i'm doing this now on doing this pre departure segment now from the teke palace to let you know The park with I'm still up. I mean. I just about after adl eighty four and i only got two hours. Don brielle toll eleven. I couldn't even take a nap. Nappy belie set the alarm. So the process or something like dad or snapchat before. I got the port though i know and i do have snacked on. I'll take me. Because i know i was a struggle for food even going to bring my food stand with me saw because maybe i could go to the store and i remember there being some stores in east orange. I remember that. I just don't know if it's going to be open. By the time i get to cause i ain't gonna get i got till about five thirty a death it when i when i land and then you know coming via the hotel so anyway i don't know i'll figure out something once i get to the hotel because thankfully i don't have to worry about you know getting to the airport and then coming back with lift our to use the lift. I'm dare In east orange. And all that stuff. So i know if i'm gonna be able to go to the even though i the valuable some tory even though there's going to be cold when they do the internment but i am definitely going to definitely gonna go to the service and Whatever record. I'll i'll try to do that. And don't thing is i had to put the list App and ankara apt. One at the same time not on taint time because on too little. Pick me up from church to return to dell. So i dunno i dunno i. I don't have the mothers number. So i can find out everything around but i do know that i do know I do have the church address. And i also said it on the air and all that all that and Yeah so It's morning the morning. Love the eve of the home-gorwn thomas service and today is travel day the most stressful day in history of all all of my travels. You think that. I'll tell you what when especially when i go home or when i go to process you know. One of the party's convention. Today is different. It's going to be a sad occasion when i travel. I'm saying goodbye to my friend and a mentor and Who passed away a sleep that i finally found out so well so just to have a little Have a little You know leadership to let everybody know what's happening i will. I will inform you all when i get to the hotel at ramada inn. And when i'm in my room. So i continue to ask to full our prayers and also pay for the tunnel jackson's family at well and I love all. My citizens are big d country as i always use. Say this is the best. This is the home of the best citizens on the net. Today i thank you.

Taro jackson Zone island north east orange new jersey diabetes teke palace Don brielle delta new york city united east orange dave ashley youtube gorwn thomas ankara dell ramada inn jackson
#78 A 29M with Cough, Abdominal Pain, Fever: Hoofbeats Segment

Core IM | Internal Medicine Podcast

39:25 min | 11 months ago

#78 A 29M with Cough, Abdominal Pain, Fever: Hoofbeats Segment

"Hi everyone this car episode. This month will count for. Cme credit with acp cpa. We will link the executive elon. The showed so click on the link. Answer three questions and get. Cme credit and with that. Cue the intro. Hi everyone cindy in here. Welcome back to another episode. Who beats where we challenge you to solve. Diagnostically difficult real world cases alongside experienced clinicians in us always. I'm joined by my co host daughter. John huang hello all. it's being a few months. Things are last episode. It's good to be back without further. Ado let's hear the case from one of our colleagues here at core. I am salone kelleher. Our patient is a twenty nine year. old man who's chief complaints are cough abdominal pain and fever. His illness began with the onset of a cough six weeks before his admission to the hospital. The cough was non-productive associated with chest pressure and dystopia but seems unrelated to exertion. Three weeks later he also developed a dull nagging left sided abdominal pain. He has no associated nausea vomiting or diarrhea but he did notice a whitest streak in his stool a few days earlier a detail. He could not elaborate on much further. His fever's began the following week. He recalls that he ate raw tuna and other fish from a local store about two weeks prior to the onset of his illness otherwise he does not remember any unusual injections recently around the time his illness began. He had traveled to taiwan but he cannot recall precisely whether his cough began shortly before or shortly after his arrival. There he returned to the us one week before admission. His travel history was also notable for trips to france hong kong and canada earlier in the year. He has no known medical surgical or family history. He sexually active monogamous. He lives in queens new york with his wife that keep to adult cats at home. He has no other contact with animals domestic or while. His only medication is percocet prescribe when he visited an urgent care for these symptoms. One week prior to admission. So i know this is not a lot of information to go down but while you take a second to think about our patient are useless. Chance to introduce our expert discussing today. Please welcome. Dr am viswanathan a fellow hospitals at nyu every time. I have cautioning office. Whether is what you think. I should do with this. Post op fever. Or how do i fix the stupid computer. A wrong to dr viv for help. I see that it's a twenty nine year old for six weeks of dry cough three weeks of campaign and two weeks a fever and of course you think tv just right off the bat. Because that's what you do with dry coffin fever but it seems to be. There's a sub acute process just from the chief complaint itself mine. Perspective is as an impatient hospital. So patients are coming in. You know this guy has been dealing with a lot of things two weeks of fever. I can ascend not wanting to come to like a hospital per se for the dry cough but there was something that you know at some point. Why did they come in now. What what really changed in their sort of Presentation where things getting worse That's what i would like to what. I usually try to illicit from patients. What what has changed now. A specis i could tell. He came to urgent care a week. Prior to the current emission autumnal pain and wasp prescribed percocet. He probably represented to the same urgent care when he ran off. The mets this time lockport was performed in because of the test results he was referred to emergency room and what lab result could have earned him an instant referral to the er. We'll before we move onto latte. I want you to know that her viswanathan also asked for sick contact he mopped. Is's be symptoms all pattern characteristic of his obama pain. Cva tenderness if the patient was taking any over the counter medications. I insert based on the emission. Itch impede documented to my best ability in the answer to a lot of these questions was. Why don't know it wasn't available in the chart at one point dot v. asked me if the patient's cats were having diarrhea i'm pretty sure he was just messing with me because of my general helpfulness Sure he wasn't trying to be mean on examination. The patient appears comfortable and generally well but it's february to one point eight and teke kartik to one ten. His blood pressure is one twenty over sixty his respiratory rate is sixteen and he is saturating ninety six percent on room air. He's mildly tendered over the left upper quadrant. His exam is otherwise unremarkable. his heart sounds are normal. His lungs are clear and there is no visible rash or join a fusion's. His labs are notable for white blood cell count of thirty three including an absolute. Es nfl count of seventeen a hemoglobin of ten and platelet count of five sixty to his serum. Sodium is one thirty. Two and glucose is to ninety four the be un serum crabbing and remainder of his metabolic. Panel are normal his chest. X ray is red is clear and his. Ecg show sinus tech cardia caps loot houston. If account was seventeen is in seventeen thousand caress teen. Oh my gosh well now. Let's all data. We're going to get so far. We have twenty nine old man with a good travel. History who eats raw tuna from the supermarket here was significant leukocyte houses in an es nfl conduct seventeen thousand listeners. Please pause here think about this patient. Pod you think is a test you want order when we come back. We'll hear more from our discussing The next piece of data we have is this wonderful white blood cell count of thirty three Which to me immediately like send off all sorts of red flags thinking about you. Know anything from like c diff to Tissue a scheme lia to basically a luca moi reaction so severe infection versus malignancy Those are the things i tend to think of of what's going on And then the next real like home hitting thing is this. Nfl account which you can look at this absolute yosano right is this percentage or absolute so. That's a thousand seven hundred or is that seventeen thousand so this this i believe goes into the area of hyper sin affiliate as opposed to just your standard regular sinophile. So i think this may lead me push you toward one. Particular range of diagnosis sees as opposed to others just to preempt any objections. Here hyper recent affiliate. If you recall does have a more formal definitions rides at least two measurements greater than fifteen hundred one month. Apart right so in other words it has to be both severe and sustained or you demonstrate extensive. The osuna fills in tissues on a biopsy and one step further. He's not saying. The patient is hyper houston felix syndrome right. That's different from hyper s and affiliate hyper-specific syndrome is capers. Affiliate plus yes. Nfl mediated organ damage. So are discussed is using the term loosely. Here but his point is that the severity of this patients houston affiliate. It has some diagnostic meaning to him. You traditionally think back in medical school. You think of yourself affiliate you think of the pneumonic. Nwa c. p. neo pleasure allergy as matric strauss connective tissue disease and parasites right but with hyper seen affiliate on the very elevated ones. You can see certain parasites like shish show and stronger ladies. You can see hodgkin's lymphoma because the hodgkin's generates the i l five. The reached berg cells can have ll cutaneous t. cell lymphoma and again for the solid tumors. You can any number of different malignancies both large cell squamous lung cancer. Gyn cancers and no carcinomas of the stomach Large bow and even transitional cell cancer of the bladder in associated with hyper affiliate. There's something known as macioci toasts. Where mass cells accumulate in the skin and internal organs and we can go even further. Well are discussing referred to end up. Acp newmont for isn't affiliate. So i have a perfect excuse to talk pneumonic for a second now. The formal definition of a new monica's attending or strategy that assist in the creation retention and retrieval of information for memory acronyms are most familiar type of pneumonic but they are not the only type say using gestures to quickly determine the absence of ekg later. Kenneth stated pneumonic drawing a picture to incorporate all causes a split mic. Lee would be a vigil. Pneumonic rhymes in psalms are auditory. Pneumonic when i was doing research on this episode. I even kim across a poem now as written to help people remember different types of heart blocks poem it assist. How many types of heart blocks are there. Is it a limerick a shakespearean sonnet epic ballad. Okay you gotta you gotta shove the poem later yes yes. Generally speaking right and the monarch it just refers to any technique or strategy that assists in the creation and retention and retrieval of information from memory. Right well the issue is new monarchs where saying are mental constructs law. We used to organize remember information. Well thus unless song an awful lot like the concept of a diagnostic schema. Yes the actually observed. A lot of people seem to treat these two concepts interchangeably. And i've had a couple of people come up and ask me directly whether there's any difference at all between the two and how do you answer them. You know i've been thinking about this a been it. Maybe using an example would be helpful so as dr v was saying for houston affiliate in med school. We learn the acronym aa acp p. But these days when my students ask me how. I approach houston affiliate. I instead tell them i start with the phrase worms wheezes and we are diseases So let me just ask you. Which of these two is a schema. And which pneumonic core are they both or neither and And why so. What do you think cindy not me. See what. I wore argue. A lot warms and wheezes has a layer of meaning that nwa acp snap. So if you think about it and nwa acp. There's really no reason why neoplasm comes first. Even though it's brilliantly rare in no reason adrenal insufficiency is up there with algae though is a thousand times more common in. There's really no. Reese imply an important costs like trucking. Deuce is affiliate like dress is not mayor just because there's no d. e. n. w. acp meanwhile warms wheezes and weird diseases devised the problem. Space of edith sinophilia into three Regions based on statistical likelihood parasites on most common causes in the developing world altona immune allergy disorders are most common in the developed world. And there's a large diverse group of rare illnesses to concert or after the first two so to answer your question. I would say both s. p. m. warm squeezes are both new monarchs. Because they both help us remember something about the causes of espn nfl via but unlike w acp warm squeezes also the start of proper diagnostic schema. And i would agree with you there. Actually i i think that meaning is the key difference and also just to be careful here. I think i worry that maybe it sounds like we're arguing. That skin mata arches somehow intrinsically better than monica and. I don't think that's what we're saying. It all right think that onyx actually quite useful in certain situations like were you need to recall something very quickly you know at a code and your patients say systolic. What do you do you chat out the ages and the teas and in general They're good when you just need to memorize a large amount of new information very quickly. They don't take a lot of time to commit to memory and they don't require that you have a deep intimate understanding of the problem you're dealing with and that's probably why we use it so much early in our medical training right in med school. But you can see. It's very different from a diagnostic schema. Write a proper diagnostic schema. It's a systematic approach to thinking about a clinical problem in a meaningful way. It's not simply a method of remembering things easily in lots xactly. Why when. I hear someone using a very clever by nasty. Schema explores a problem space in a way that i never ever thought of before. They instantly gained so much respect for me. Not immediately tells me that. This person's found them. Knowledge in this particular subject is will not surprisingly much deeper than mine. My next question for you is in the specific scenario. When i hear someone on teaching rounds use a new monarch to recall list of causes for clinical problem with owl systematically thinking through it should i discourage encourage their use our pneumonic a natural step in learning or should i prompt name to start thinking about clinical problem in a different way. You know. I think it depends right definitely. Don't think we should be categorically discussing the monarch use as part of the learning process right. That doesn't make any sense anymore. Than i would yell at my four year old for using training wheels on his bike. Actually just to use the analogy. I might even encourage them to do those things right to to let him find some early success that he couldn't have otherwise but what happens later right. Well you know if he grows up biking him. It doesn't matter but it's dangerous if he does want to buy. He wants to bike to work every day and he never learned how to bike with training wheels. And i think that that is the source of my unease with anonymous. Right is when you first are trying to learn navigate and you problem. That's totally unfamiliar to you. The large amount of information manek's are and honestly for a clinical problem that we encounter infrequently or that we don't necessarily need to achieve mastery and that might be enough assemble on might be enough but it easy or tweet easy to get comfortable. What you manex. I mean if we rely on newman next too much in fail to rethink relearn reexamine a specific clinical topic and develop a deeper intimate knowledge about it. Well if something limits might growth in a came become a crutch yeah exactly. That's what i think too and so to get back to your question. I think when. I see you know my in student rely on demonic like n. Double acp for usa affiliate. Yeah i think first and foremost it's a sign right. It's telling me something about the wayne which you know. Their knowledge about that problem was organized in their head. And i need to decide if i think he is. An affiliate is a topic. They need to master right. It means that at that point. I have to step in. I have to help them. Recognize the need to develop a deeper understanding the material. And that might be pointing out to them. The inadequacy of the demonic. You know as dr v did or helping them distinguish which of the demonic so that they use have the potential to be the nuclei of mature schema helpful schema versus those that are just you know destined to become textbook fodder all right I think we digressed enough on the topic. New monarchs because data viswanathan said. Wac alowed once. Sorry sorry that's come back to this case so that a response and winther a long list of possible causes in his mind and at this point he's basically thinking tool broth things parasitic infections versus malignancy. He also ordered. Hiv serology a hipaa panel es star crp. He asked me whether stool wassim for culture. Over parasite and pathogen. Pcr he also asked for a domino imaging will be full. We give you all that data. I forced him to only choose one single test with the highest diagnostic value. You know the question that they asked on c. p. c. All the time in. I get angry every time i see. Why do i have to choose. Just one test anyways. To my surprise he asked for an abdominal imaging to pursue lab folklore abdominal pain for parasites malignancy are the two things that somewhat spree me but no diarrhea. But then this whitest streak which to me seems a little bit of a red herring per se if you look at the. The country's guy went to like france hong kong taiwan in canada. It's like it's not not thinking. He was going barefoot and then like some worm go went up to his feet. So it's interesting. When i think about this six weeks of dry coffee think of something palmer area related You have this three weeks of download pain that seems a little more focal and two weeks of fever is there inflammation that's going on in the left abdominal side that's maybe causing some inflammation and sort of pluralistic pain or just trying to tie together. Are the dry cough. And the donald would say my impression now is that it's likely that there's there's a process that's more pronounced in the abdomen and choosing my diagnostic testing. I want to maximize sort of the yield of each test. So i think you know. Abdominal imaging would be my go-to first so if you remember elite became the discussion. Turvy was leaning heavily toward infection and he seemed to be sufficiently intrigued by the eastern affiliate. As you can see by the long differential but the discussion when he got more and more interested in the focal donald payne. I try to pressing by more. But he refused to comment. Further furthering insisted on obtaining the t. I or i find the abdominal pelvic c. T revealed eleven by tame by fifteen centimeter laughed reno. Mass most compatible with neoplasm Dr v so. I asked him one more time in his interest in with that abdominal pain. I think a again anchored on certain things certain items. Like the is cynthia. I took each piece of data. And i thought how important is this. You know how important was that you know his streak not so important. When we're looking at cases we're trying to solve a puzzle right so we're putting all the pieces together and then we're taking each of information is how important is this. How how important is that. This patient you know went to france. Recently how important is it that he He lives with two cats. So taking all those bits and pieces of information and thinking about okay. Is this important. No or yes and then taking additional information than reprioritising everything so it's almost like a constant inventory that is being removed so that way i can then solidify things you know. I think in this patient i would be concerned about something in the gi tract specifically. That's causing these. This patient's symptoms the is sinophilia. It is the most interesting data but it's too vague the differential for this too much so in short he he feels that he is an affiliate. Although it's very exciting and interesting At this juncture of his diagnostic process. It doesn't help him narrow differential further. It's time to focus on the abdominal pain. Lot decision in office very interesting right. I mean if this case came in as an overnight emission. I definitely will spend the whole teaching ranks talking about eastern failure. Who cares about this guys abdominal pain. Oh yeah that's made totally one hundred percent. I mean it's intellectually exciting right when we encounter relatively rare finding right. Psychologically this our built were naturally attracted to and and we think of rare things is valuable but it didn't get him all the way there so he did something that honestly. I don't think i could have done. He he set the espn affiliate of seventeen thousand aside and Much respect will. I didn't catch this on tape but that are also told me later that he felt this case was written in a way to buy him toward parasites in knowing me lambing. He more cautious in. Fill the need to go down that route. Twersky the gamesmanship well new did emphasize the s in philly and the travel history and the tuna experienced discuss. Since they they can smell a trap. Well to be fair. I ashley d not whistler case latte much remember. We said let the patient presented to an urgent care. I got lot work in incoming while so when he showed up in the er he's using feel. I was already known in. I intentionally kept my hp similar to initial written by a medical student in the who knew about the failure and you can tell he or she was thinking. Oh my god is a parasite the whole time right. Because they probed all ingestion and travel history of the patient and wanted to maintain that. Same firming effect now provides later were exposed to i see surfacing. There's there's a certain realism than to achieve. Did you tried to tell him the same story that this patient's real-life attending must've done preconceptions. At all i mean. Obviously i know the outcome of la as i looked up a whole chorus in retrospectively may be selectively put together an case for presentation but in real life you can easily encounter presenter. Who really wants us. Theory to be real. They in the presenting the patient story a little bit differently. This might be a bit of an aside. I've been thinking a lot lately. Cindy about how and maybe this is because i'm biased as an internist but i feel like i might go so far as to say storytelling might be the maybe the second most important function you know of a clinician or thing that we do. What's the most important function God that was a loaded sentence. Wasn't it and think about that. I just know it's not the most important thing. If storytelling was our most important function we would be barreds. Doctors can't be the most important thing what i am. Trying to say is just like the patient tells you their story but would you do. Is you extract data from that telling you combine it with the objective data from your tests and you you construct a new story right a new story that some more consistent story when the fits what you think is going on and then when you call a consult until shortened version of that story is centered around a question and a lot of our training in residency right. The writing of hp is learning how to craft one liners learning how to do nighttime handoffs. It's all about honing our storytelling skills and Every time we hear about a patient hearing someone's version of that story so he's from someone's perspective. I'm struggling. I think the way i think is. It's almost like a nice pd cycle so it's a continuing evolution of. How does this piece of information doesn't fit into my narrative and if not actually stop and think about my narrative and then go back and see okay. If this isn't the narrative that i think is going on with the patient. Then how can i tie this piece of information with everything else. So i'm going to take this. Chance to digress. Again and talk about framing bias attorney. We here in eminem's all time. A we often define firming. Baya's lamented in which data is presented can get decision making so twin extent. A different storytelling perspective. Kmby a kind of framing. I mean firming. A psychological phenomenon was first described by the prospect theory. The prospect theory describes. How people's decision making behavior is affected by bayer perspective of loss and gain in gambling. Mosul blur researching the medical field on. Framing usually have studies designed in positive or negative terms like it was describing the prospect theory. Originally like was the glass half full or half empty. Do you present a treatment. As having a seventy percent cure rate for thirty percent fielder rate in they in they study the stop just decision making behavior a sleigh perceive howler numeral numbers are presented but when we talk about the framing effect in real life or in emma names we typically are extrapolating in where talking about a broader meaning latin In which data or the narrative is presented cain affect our perception of the case when using loose bra abstract term. It's quite difficult to measure. How prevalent or pervasive froemming buyouts is in our everyday clinical life at the end of the day if we say. Orchestras are been presented to us by someone in oil stories have a high potential to be framed. All let's just made me so depressed. While i know if i ignore everything might miss student interns and residents tell me in. I go straight to the source and only gather data from a patient than i should be. Okay right i mean. Your objective is my subjective. Cindy wanna take care of the patient yourself. that's fine but there's i think i have another objection here Let me just ask you this question. Do you think that this patient actually came in and volunteered. That he had a white streak in his stool. Remember that he he came. 'cause you having fever and abdominal pain right those his chief complaints or do you think it's more likely that this white streak in the stool became such a prominent feature of his story after he was interviewed by one and two and five and too many providers wall knew that he had that he isn't affiliate seventeen thousand right Yeah i wonder lot when. I put together a case while i you set. The patient is the original storyteller. In in the past episodes we talked. Abou- reasons why we should not always say the patient's wards at face value. I mean they are language barriers cultural differences health literacy problem for example. It might be very difficult for some patients to distinguish between chest pain versus pressure. Yeah no agreed. And don't forget the factor repeat interviews right as patients get interviewed over and over again as they it re exposed to to us to the healthcare setting their stories change are they start to incorporate our vocabulary a patient with prolonged chest pain that comes habitually every month for an acs rule out on the first visit they probably did not start out calling their pain substantal stern and crushing and exertion all and nine out of ten but as i meet somebody who's been in the chest pain unit fourteen times. I am cognizant. That what i am hearing now is no longer there original experience their original perceptions not their words. I'm starting to hear the words of all the doctors who've taken care of this patient before psychologists have done a lot of studies on this topic on memory recall men. Lean the legal setting in terms of accuracy of eyewitness testimony. You question your patients always ask you when you meet them for the first time in the morning after they were omitted. The first question. They asked me Your doctor or i'm all better now. Can i go home. Who i wish. No it's more like i ensor. Oli sim question six times already. Doctors talk to each other at that. Will it turned all the system is set out this way for reason. Psychologists who study memory. Call learn that repeat interviews aid memory retention and retrieval in some factual details ashley only service after repeating to reviews but in the same time they are so many factors embedded in los interviews can also distort accuracy or memory recall the duration of those interviews. The form of the questions used in those interviews. The number of people being interviewed together their age their confidence level in so many other elements. It's not uncommon. That information can be stored or even created with all the interviewees knowing that so when you were reviewing that literature sunday did they talk about solutions or anything like that. I mean repeat interviews. They're a fact of the way we practice medicine right. So is there some way to maximize the benefits and minimize the distortions. That are introduced by this practice. While we know we probably need to standardize our cautions income ta objective interviews to keep the side effects of repeat interviews to a minimum. But how do we counter these effects. I actually don't know if i an insert in my research especially not in the medical field for now will say assist. Be aware of it and be aware of the fact that in where may or may not help you. Avoid the property all right so back to the case. So what do we have at this point. You're saying the patient has a giant mass rising. The kidney probably a solid tumor in this is what's causing the pain and the irritation and the fever and the affiliate fits kind of right k. Salt will not yet for daughter one of them after betting money on malignancy and seeing a giant mass on the skin he turned around in asked me four thorough infectious workup including a fall parasitic panel in an ideal comfort. I don't think i'm satisfied and you know again. Having fevers is there an infectious source that i haven't about. I think we tried to tie everything to one process. However in reality we often times see patients with simultaneous parallel processes. That just intersect at this time and we actually see this all the time. We see patients coming to the hospital. And they have incidentally diagnosed malignancy. They came in for pneumonia. So i think looking at him initially with that. Luca moored reaction sort of white count with the highway. Cout fever cardia. It's not something i wanted to say. Oh it's definitely this. Large mass doesn't look infectious at all. Looks like it may just be this nice mass. That's not bothering anyone. And i don't think we've really had a size vying. Answer about what. This fever is. So i wouldn't feel comfortable initiating any treatment until a thorough infectious. Workup was done. So about this patient. Cindy what What happened in the end. So in real life a g u on colleges was consulted in. he's all this could be renal cell carcinoma. He requested a thorough ide- war for the same reason batter visa justed ladders patient for feel sepsis. Criteria in oncologist. Loft are all other causes before he commits the patient to possible post up chemotherapy. Hiv blood para ceo mp schistosomiasis. In a lot of parasites that can not even pronounce were tested in the rest of the infectious worked up they can bet negative ultimately the mass was surgically reset. The path returned us. Be nice are coma. Stains for fungal and fbi were all negative by post up they fight. The patient was completed a febrile and the houston affiliate resolved peace corps actually also resolved and. It was thought to be wrong for matic irritation. He was discharged home us new. Hang on i. I would have bet money would would have been our cc. So benign sarcomas. I mean it's rare case reportable but it can cause a high isn't affiliate leaders case reportable iming. I'm sorry i. I try to find who becase zebra cases so it doesn't really fit the name of our segment here and the was gone by day five. Yeah the east of feel congress. The plummeted poll stop in by day. Five at believe it was in the range of six hundred or so then the mechanism. Do we know anything about that. i try my best read up on it to be honest There are a lot of theories on. Tumor mediated pro inflammatory. Cytokine lines Never mind never mind all right listeners. That i should just do it for this episode as always let us know. Think and remember if you have a case you like to submit for discussion or someone you like to come on and hear discussing or if you're interested in developing a hosting an episode. Please get in touch with us. Visit our website. Www podcast dot com or same as an email at. Hello ed core. I am podcast dot com. We're also on facebook and twitter. Its core i m podcast and of course thank you to doctrine on his wealth and on discussing dr jobe for submitting this case as well as doctors amyot shred ready mardi freed special. Thanks for audio. Editors salone kelleher and hurry shop on other in honorable mention as always to dr steven view after fang and i or general internists and faculty with the nyu school of medicine opinions expressing his podcast. Our own and do not represent the opinions of affiliated institutions. Offshoot become treat as medical advice. Thank you for joining us with core. I am from john wall. Defend see you next time.

cough fever twenty nine year two weeks houston six weeks diarrhea John huang Dr am viswanathan dr viv viswanathan teke kartik ninety six percent nfl hodgkin luca moi yosano fifteen hundred one month osuna tissue disease
#57 A 39M on Inpatient Psychiatry with a Fever: Hoofbeats Segment

Core IM | Internal Medicine Podcast

55:14 min | 1 year ago

#57 A 39M on Inpatient Psychiatry with a Fever: Hoofbeats Segment

"Hi everyone this episode. This month will count for Sammy credit with ACP we will link the Executive Elon. The showed so click on the link. Answer answer three questions and get. CME Credit and with that cue the Intro we had our latest morbidity and Mortality Conference a couple of weeks ago and and since then I've been thinking we're supposed to learn from our mistakes. That's the assumption. These conferences are built on. But how how do we go about doing that. Actually what do I do uncover the truth of what went wrong in my thinking especially when I barely understand how my own brain works and when I suspect I can't fully trust it to investigate itself objectively because of the fragility of memory and of my pride I think back to my training and I remember blocks on kidney disease conferences. On Epidemiology. Getting my cases precept in clinic but when it comes to how we as doctors should be analyzing our diagnostic failures. I guess the unspoken assumption I worked with was just I just figure it out along the way but at this point in my career. I'm not so sure anymore. A couple a couple of years ago. I had a case. That's stuck with me case in which I miss the diagnosis. Fortunately no harm came to the patient. He was treated appropriately. He recovered bird and his diagnosis wasn't even delayed because another clinician immediately recognized what he had but ever since that cases bothered me because to this day I. I don't think I truly understand why I missed that diagnosis. Now that we've been doing hoof beats I've been thinking. What might I learned if I saw another clinician one with greater experience or different from perspective? Go through that case. And what might we learn about this process in general about how we ought to learn from our mistakes. Well on this week's episode. We're going to do just that. I'll present this case for you to solve. That will use it twenty questions format so I'll start by giving you just some basic information than ask you to think about what questions you'd want to ask next and in what order will fall along with no fewer than three different discusses who may challenge in the same way each of whom successfully diagnosed this case to both my wonderment and Chagrin and hopefully by the end. I'll have the answer to my question. How do they succeed? And why did I fail my null hypothesis that I'm just an idiot with quarry em. I'm John Wa in emceeing defame we are general internists faculty at the Nyu School of Medicine and this hoof beats stay with us for the case a thirty nine year. Old Man carrying a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Currently hospitalized in the inpatient psychiatric unit is transferred to your medical service after developing a fever to a hundred and two degrees Fahrenheit on interview he is reticent and Minimally Really Verbal which is consistent with the behavior of the unit staff have been observing since his arrival he acknowledges that he feels feverish and that his appetite is poor but he denies all other symptoms and that specifically includes headaches Maria sore throats cough nausea vomiting abdominal pain diarrhea to Syria He. Volunteers is no medical history but doesn't really get for teen medical care on exam. The repeat temperature is one hundred three point six. And he's mildly Teke Kartik two hundred and eight. Meanwhile his blood pressure respiration and oxygen. Saturation are all normal. He is quiet and withdrawn but alert and doesn't appear toxic in any sense so we'll start with that to diagnose this patient what would you focus on next. What magician information? Would you like to have whether it's more history exam exam tests take a moment to think about it and we'll hear from our first to discuss insert after the break. The the one question that I just for me would unfold so much more of the cases. What mets is because yes there's this whole thing about yes it's a fever and so there's various categories infection different kinds of infection that came chronic confection all of a when we started off by inviting back to discussions who've previously been on hoof beats the voice? You hear jumping straight into. The medalist is Dr David Stern and and he is joined by. Dr Patrick Cox both our General Internists and senior faculty at Nyu when you mentioned a psychiatric illness in a medical condition that being fevers it has already Eddie. Provided some organizational framework wish to think about this threat regular hoof beats listeners. May remember a few episodes back when Dr Cox and Stern handled the case we gave them with the ease. It was a young man with metastatic. Gastric cancer well. After that we obviously had to up the ante so not only do we make them ask for whatever data they wanted. Did we made them ask you to only yes or no questions. You know so that they wouldn't get any free information from our answers as top. Six questions you can say has has gone has been dropped. It may be that we have a branch point in there. But that's I've thrown out. My my first question is really meds I just care immuno-compromised or or not was thinking which get from the beds. That's true likely but depends how many meds he has made six questions. Now I thought it was gonNA. We asked for MED list. Oh and I was going to get mad. Listen it's not gonna be a yes how can you ask. He can't. He's gotTa actually against the mets to branch points in my mind Lorena compromise or not and then whether in this I have to think about this in the US now but was his presenting symptom to this Mania Menia in hyper was a delusional slash psychotic or was Flat Affect The other thing I was thinking about again talk screen sort of stuff. Yeah I mean which gets it in the same thing that you're getting out like if he comes in in a hybrid energy state then is really psychotic or is he actually actually has some toxic like either taking something or drawing something exactly. Sri Russians maybe three all right meds immuno-compromised state drug screen. But but your your other mushroom is sort of Moore's presents delusional slash psychotic and then end develops a fever thinking more about organic brain process. Like Encephalitis Amendment exempting. Yeah if he's hyper murgic or array and then thinking about toxins and if he is flat Wilson's or some the fever we have to to deal the only a minor question which putting the lesser in category B. These are things that would be interesting to depends on how things play out. Time of year. Came and Just because of like the busier influenza or it might be I mean it could be given a case of schizophrenic. It's productivity developed influence. But sorry can I get it already have to go onto the next okay. So so let's answer some of these questions for you folks so lear first question they ask what medications the patient is currently taking Losarte Kalonzo Ping Haloperidol in the theme. He's also prescribed Hyphen Hydra Ming as needed for sleep. Nothing else next. They asked whether the patient immuno compromised in any way kind of a broad question. Since there are many forms of immuno-compromised. Maybe you should make them atomised. Maybe but you know what you don't say no to your former program director or the Vice Chair for faculty affairs n regardless. The answer was the same across the board no he had a fourth generation. HIV HIV screening tests on admission which was negative. A Hemoglobin A. One C. Measurement confirmed that he wasn't diabetic. He didn't appear severely malnourished. And he wasn't on any immunosuppressants suppressants Or for that matter any other medications aside from what you just said third question. They wanted to know how the patient initially presented to the psychiatric unit as it turns out the patient living homeless shelter in Watson in by staff lear who reported that he was behaving psychotically responding to internal Stimuli Stimuli Garden in electing his self-care however he was not violent or agitated naughty he appeared this dynamic and in terms terms of the time of year. This case occurred in early July in the Northern Hemisphere. So No. This wasn't the flu so this show being called who feeds. We appreciate appreciate the thought. It's interesting I only. Because most psych admissions tend to be fourteen days from insurance perspectives. I no I haven't I I'm curious as to why you want to know how long just to see if it was something they brought in from the outside. Yeah exactly exactly so Sort of this idea of how he presented if he was coming in toxins If he was coming in with the viral encephalitis lightest would anticipate there to be a lot of overlap in that they wouldn't have taken fourteen days for him to present with that. This tie feet report allows us to get rid of the TUCK DOC screen with the exception of the idea that somebody's bringing in something to be toxic curtain withdrawing or something that otherwise The whatever that is eight and nine seventeen days too long too long for a lot of things and I'm very fixing is backed actors medicines again other any meds that were added or changed once he came. Yes no patients hosts V taking to make doc outpatient the positive those medications were resume during hospitalization. But it's unclear what he's actually cheating them okay and when he got into the hospital he was those were reinitiated. That's right and Iran and anything else change from hospital day. Two to the ninth today. I'm sorry in terms of his his meds he helped Heyerdahl added a four two milligrams twice today so the his med list suggests that has underlying thanks psychiatric illness to begin with. And so it's reframed the the way I'm thinking about this now. You know the way I heard the chief complaint in thought of the context of this conversation thought it would be be a primary psychiatric presentation of a disease process that would unify neuropsychiatric symptoms on this high fever. The fact that he comes to his initial presentation on these medicine's suggests that this is a chronic process. And I'm less inclined to tie them together. Okay so just to review So far we have presumably ably immuno competent thirty nine year. Old Man with schizophrenia. In the psych unit started on Clause Opinion Lithium followed by Hal payroll and then a little over two weeks into his hospitalization. He developed this fever and this point they requested a complete blood count on the day of the first fever. Look total white. It's normal five point to forty seven percent. Neutral fills twenty eight percent beams. Sixteen Percent Manos seven percent heels in relative terms Luma. nosing eels are modestly elevated but to save fuel a tropical doing the math. The absolute outcomes are within normal limits. The hemoglobin platelets. Let's our normal our discussions than asked for a hypnotic panel those results. The Trans eminences were slightly elevated. Ast Eighty three eighty four four International units per liter which is a little bit over twice the upper limit of normal These had been normal when last checked on the first day of his hospitalization meanwhile the alkaline fossil tastes and bill. Rubin measurements were both within norms. And this point. They shifted to physical exam. Late asked whether clones US hyper reflects the out or by Therese's wore person finding slough would be system was Serotonin Syndrome. They also asked whether there was any Richard Ity knows were all absent. They also wanted to know more about the pattern of the fever. How high did it reach? And how many days did it last. Well the temperature reached a maximum of a hundred and three point six degrees Fahrenheit and he was persistently Febrile even after seventy two hours. Every single temperature was measured was elevated. Did in spite of repeated doses of I just think that his degree appear exit is unique one hundred three point six is yeah and the acuity of this is also drives me in a particular way. I mean it again like you said. It's against hygenic infections. Also against any one of the sort of more chronic will great TV for example for somebody to suddenly show up with a fever of one hundred three. Have One of these other infections does. It isn't infection but does not causing elevated white count and just that's out there. I mean that's a tunnel syndrome Iraq of cleanliness. It makes less likely so we're at ten questions and at this point Dr Cox asked whether there was a rash and yes there was it was a diffuse eruption of pustules and Papillon's by asking follow up questions are discussing establish at these lesions were scattered across the face. The chest trunk back in arms what the legs seemed relatively spared. There were a few lesions on the palms none on the souls and nothing in the mouth or on the genitals when asked the patient denied that these lesions were particularly particularly painful or periodic in fact he barely seemed to register the presence of the rash at all as he couldn't exactly recall winner where it started for what it's worth notes it's written by the staff psychiatrists earlier that week hadn't mentioned any rash. A Siphon the rush the risk of his physical exam was relatively on remarkable. He had the soft systolic murmur in the pulmonary area. Latina that radiate. The lungs were clear. There was no appreciable he paddled splint or medically or tenderness there were no joint infusions. The prostate was numb tinder on rectal exam. And it's at this point after asking roughly fifteen questions having her her that story that exam and some very basic labs that are discussing proposed the correct diagnosis I have to say I was surprised. They got this so quickly. I had a long list of answers prepared to questions. I thought they were going to ask. What did you think they? We're going to ask. I mean this is just getting back to something you talked about in our last episode. About how expert clinicians often spend a great deal time thinking about who the patient is and what dirt risk for. You know what felt of embarrass called the enabling conditions. So I expected. They'd WanNa know more about who this patient was. We could still run down list in case any of our listeners. A nurse one Lewis Information. Sure Cindy so more about this patient. Well he was born in West Africa. He had emigrated to the United States in his early twenties. Mace and had been living in New York City for the past five years. He said he had not traveled outside of New York City. Within the past six months he was unemployed and as you said Cindy he was living in shelter he had used marijuana before but otherwise denied any substance use. He had not been sexually active within the past year. There was no significant family history He had a father and brothers in Africa who were as far as he knew healthy We also have have some other test results that you folks may or may not be interested in The basic metabolic panel was normal. The urinalysis was normal and cultures. Ultras of urine and blood showed no growth through seventy two hours. His chest X ray was read as clear. The Serum Creatine kinase on the day of his fever was slightly elevated to to eighty three units per liter. This rose over the next forty eight hours to two thousand Before down trending spontaneously thereafter clause subpoena and lithium lithium levels. Were checked on the day of his fever. Those were both within target range as I had said before the HIV screening test was negative he also had an HIV test that was percent and this too was negative The RPR and TPP a essays were both negative and a urine pr for Ghana caucus was negative. And I think for the most part. That's all the data that we had so chung. What what did you think the patient had well so I have been looking at the admission note that I wrote which is going to? I think. Help keep me honest about without my thought process and so in the note I for my problem representation. I write high persistent fever and diffuse Popular Hustler Rash. In a young man three weeks into an inpatient patients psychiatric hospitalization and resumption of causes pain held all in lithium And I thought that the patient was having some sort of Posture Febrile drug reaction Acute generalized Xm. It is postulated this or age up Idiosyncratic clipping reaction. An atypical form of dress. Maybe even sweet syndrome. How confident were you actually? I wasn't particularly confident. You know in any of those diagnoses. I simply haven't seen enough examples of any for those things to be able to say entirely confident. Diagnosing them but I was confident in that problem representation. I thought I was thinking about the case in the right way We weren't in a rush that morning. We haven't gotten many admissions. So you know. We had time to create a differential. I remembered very deliberately thinking talking about other categories so in my note for example. I also wrote maybe syphilis maybe acute HIV this is before the PR came back. I even tried thinking laterally a little bit. Maybe the rash was chronic and just overlooked may be related to lithium which would make the real problem here That of a non on focal fever. But anyway I thought I was in the ballpark and I wasn't 'cause half an hour. After I saw this patient with my team I and I left that note. The consulting dermatologist came by and immediately recognized the correct diagnosis and drop the MIC. So to speak by leaving a brief yet incisive note which I think is like timestamps like ten minutes after my hideous bumbling note with my differential that somehow somehow managed to be both over. Baked and undercooked Worley. Certain of Lear diagnosis. They put in a differential but I think they were just being being polite in what was corrupt. I notice a chicken pox. There's so this Uh this was really embarrassing. We why I mean. The diagnosis was not delayed. The patient was affected. Yeah and I mean thank goodness for that but you know even if he did fine. It's scary to think. It really could have heard him right. I mean we know. Primary Varicella tends to be more severe and adults golz significant minority pulmonary disease. You know an an had. We gotten the diagnosis. Any earlier would have permitted earlier airborne isolation he might have been fine but can you imagine if he had been next to an immuno compromised patient. I Guess Fair but to be on this. I don't think I would have gotten the very solid diagnosis. I know says either. Plus Primary Versola. It's just so rare. Yeah I mean in adults rare. Yes but it's not like it's some sort of exotic disease. We've all heard it. I mean it would have been one thing if I had considered various ella but just said odds to unlikely to test for to treat. I mean that's a problem of misjudging edging probability and we've talked about mistakes that on hoof beats before you know I could comfort myself with the knowledge that humans generally suck judging probabilities. But that wasn't the error that I committed the problem was I never thought of air cell in the first place and it feels embarrassing to be blindsided like that In One Thousand Ninety eight Dr Georges Board Dodge wrote an influential paper titled. Why did I miss the diagnosis? And in it. He describes how he asked ten general internists to reflect on the reasons why they committed a diagnostic error at some point in the past year and their answers included things that I think all of us can relate to. I didn't pay enough attention to a finding. I didn't know enough about the disease. I let the consultant convince me but number one on the list. The most common error they reported was the diagnosis never crossed my mind. I think I can relate to laugh too often often. Then I'm willing to admit the problem is simply recognizing that doesn't stop me from doing it again. Exactly it's not like I chose to not think of various Ella. At least you're never forget to think of Salon next time you see fever rash after a case like this. Yes I'm detecting detecting the sarcasm in your voice and I think that's exactly what's bothering me the prospect that you know thanks to my brain's reliance on availability. This diagnostic error might in having to victims this patient. who had chicken pox that I didn't see and my next patient with fever and rash and whom I'll see chicken pox? That isn't there. There has to be a better. Take away from this case. I've just struggled with what that's supposed to be so listeners. Here's your second diagnostic challenge of this epistle. If you think nothing of primary verse Sala. Why do you think you missed diagnosis? And if you get a diagnosis before you now please Stein Knows my co-host. Why didn't he give the diagnosis washy? He's takeaway listen. Be Take a moment to come up with some ideas in. We'll compare notes after the break. It could be the way in which I reflect on and talk about the mistakes I've made as a doctor has has been heavily influenced by vocabulary that I I learned in residency vocabulary. I'm sure you're all familiar with with words. Like anchoring and availability early bias and premature closure. His language was post to facilitate self reflection and to enable us to communicate with one another about what when wrong in our diagnostic process. It was supposed to be a common tongue for self-improvement yet when I reflect on this case I find myself at a loss for words that morning when my resident I presented his patient to me my mind jump straight to an adverse drug reaction and it stayed there. So is the mistake that I committed. Premature closure does does the fact that I spent an hour reading and creating my differential for the patients. Rash somehow change that. Would I have thought of various Ella. Had I just thought harder longer. And how much coach. How much more time would I have had to spend before? My closure is no longer considered premature. When I opened the chart I read the note written the night before by the medical medical consultant in which he wrote he suspected a Causa Pena reaction? Does that mean. I fell prey diagnostic momentum. After I interviewed. The patient examined the rash myself. I was still convinced convinced. He was having a drug reaction. So as an example of confirmation bias for over-confidence bias Dr Groupie Dhaliwal Who you probably know us the distinguished diagnostician Shen from UCSF? He writes in sports. The exact same decision making process can conjure different adjectives depending on the outcome. If the coach or athlete undertakes a high risk. Play in the team. Wins he or she is hailed as confidence strategic experienced gutsy if the player results in a loss the same decision in is called shortsighted foolish overconfident reckless when a physician makes a challenging diagnosis with just a few pieces of information. She is called a brilliant diagnostician Austin if her diagnosis is wrong. It's called premature closure. He goes on to say. It is human nature to judge the quality of the decision making process the result rather than the logic we cannot help it unquote concepts let loose are helpful in learning them. I now understand that human human reasoning malfunctions in predictable ways. The Lear is an ambiguity in these turns in that makes them prone to misuse. Yes exactly I I think. There's a laxness in their use that can actually distort or obscure the deeper meaning of our mistakes rather than illuminating them for Dodge writes in his review. That not only do Internet make mistakes Belay Commonly Misunderstand Wiley made mistakes and I think part of the problem is lat least terns do not by themselves helps identify the root call so far failures that see I committed premature closure premature close whilst it because I had insufficient data. Then why did I not got enough. Data was simply because I was lazy. Doctor or Wesley are larger fatter. Affected my way of data gathering if I keep asking these questions. Ideally I came more precisely located lesion within my dynastic process so that I can come out with an actionable strategy to prevent that from happening next time what will be helpful is a way to search for answers to these questions systematically and fortunately for us this has been the object of considerable research beginning in the late nineteen eighties There were a number of different authors including Cimozewicz Casarin Koppelman boarded and graber to name a few and they by examining case records and interviewing physicians sought to systematically compile different types of cognitive errors. Does that seem to lead to misdiagnosis. Now there's considerable variation in the terminology that these different authors use but their studies all had something in common they. They took as a starting premise. That diagnostic problem solving can be represented as a sequence of steps. I E clinician starts by gathering and interpreting data data next that data is synthesized and hypotheses generated or triggered and third. Those policies are subjected to a process of validation and these authors categorize associated the various errors they identified based on where in this process. They seem to be occurring. But right now we're going to repurpose this. This framework to explore our case to try to narrow down one or more deeper reasons why I never thought of the diagnosis Avera Sela So I think it would make sense to start in the beginning of the process. The first step data-gathering right. Those studies we referred to earlier are attributed a number of mistakes to stage failing to gather important information while taking a history is an obvious example but so is gathering. Excessive amounts of unhelpful information relying on history or exam findings elicited by other clinicians is another deficiencies in physical exam technique along along with performing an incomplete exam or failing to examine the patient at all also fall under this category and actually there is something I overlooked in this patient's nations exam and I'll be honest if you're listening and you miss the diagnosis. You might be mad at me for this. I told you that. The patient's rash consisted of Papillon's and Pastilles and it really. He did but the dermatologist. Who saw the patient wrote that? The patient also had some vesicles and sure enough. When I went back to the bedside I found that although the majority of lesions were popular postulate there were a couple of scattered vesicles one on the hand couple on the chest pinpoint blisters of clear? Fluid on in an era feminists base. I had completely overlooked those in even though you initially told Dr Carter Dr Stern Russia's popular pasture later when we show them a picture of the rash Lee immediately recognized that a couple of lesions were actually vesicles last seem to be what led them to wear seller Pichler chiller Yeah right vesicles. That's so yeah I think I mean it looks. Looks to me is that Ah Some of these do and there's one that's the secular and crusted over a bit. Does he have s car. And you're no talks. Four Disease Hostess Recessio- posh but Tricastin extended always we all know that brawl diagnosis diffused on the palms right. Yeah right recap zeal disease still dis syphilis. Bright but the degree of piracy is surprising Eisenson Chickenpox Primary Var sell primary seller strange on the hands but on the chest but in a thirty nine year old. I mean I saw at once in my life and adult with primary of ourselves. Now though about the vaccine hundred percent so maybe one obvious takeaway from this case for me. He is just a simple rule when a patient has a rash. You'll look at every single lesion and the next time I see popular Joel's I need to search for vesicles any vesicles. It can get a little bit posture. We've talked about this. Previously right data gathering is upstream of data integration. We've said this before. But if the quality of data gathering is poor. There's no way to reason your way correct diagnosis. And this is why you can't rely on a clinical reasoning podcasts to become a better diagnostician Actually John I haven't alternative interpretation of what happened here but to explain. I think we need to introduce Arthur discussing for this episode sold so I immediately and only thought neuroleptic malignant syndrome when I heard your one liner and so so I guess the next question I have is Is really about what medications is he taking. I I think I would have two main two main things that I would be thinking about. One is is this a A Psychiatric Emergency Afar psychiatric pharmacologic. The emergency like neuroleptic malignant syndrome. I might wonder Oh it's the Serotonin Syndrome and then I'm like well. He's a thirty seven year old or young guy with a vivere. So what do we know about a young man with a fever who also has some psych history. It sounds like he has a delusional disorder but a young man with a a fever is he. What does he look like? What are is other vital signs look like quiet listeners? Meter proper porter that a porter is also a General Anura internist in senior faculty here on. Why you Dr Porter suggested the possibility of primary very sell a very early on without most of the case information Asian that you heard as you saw? She started the same way as our first to discuss insisted asking about the medications but then she deviates by going straight to the physical exam which leads to the rash and does he have it. What surface of his arms and legs? They seem to be on both the Dorsal land veteran services that yeah and how about his digits there aren't any on his digits maybe a couple on his on his palms uh-huh okay so Anna souls to how. `Bout in his mouth does he have any lesions inside of his mouth so in in his contract diver Kong tiber clear. And you called it pasta. chiller PAP y'all's and the pustules do they have. Are they clear fluid filled or not really. They don't look like do drops on a rose is pedal for example. That's not what you thought when you saw them. Okay I mean I'm wondering if I'm like no SID Barras Era Saleh. And then of course. I'm thinking it's the syphilis because what's not syphilis what What triggered syphilis are so well? So what triggered syphilis was when you said his palms so that was like you know if this then that if Palmer than syphilis And and what made me think Vasella but But something about fever diffuse rash with pustules. Made me think this is something that we just don't see a lot in a guy who's right on the cusp of the age where we started immunizing people full against paracel. Although I don't know where he would have picked that up so and and I don't remember when fever is part of Vera Saleh but but a viral illness like that crossed my mind. Actually when you said the fever I was like Oh a high fever like you see in viruses and children so now just to clarify for our listeners as I was describing the patients pappy O.. Posture rash to her. But I had not shown her the picture at this point. And that's my point. You hear how she thought of Acela something about this patients. Young Age reminded her of this diagnosis in La Pointe. She opened the questions. Whether the rash you saw was in fact vesicular so five minutes. When there's a goal you set you didn't think oversaw because you miss the vesicles but could it be the other way around? I see what you're getting at Cindy. Dr Porter didn't need the photo. Oh to think of air ACELA looked for vesicles because she was thinking of Era Cella so the question is did not think of air ACELA. Because I didn't notice the vesicles or did I overlook the vesicles. Because I wasn't thinking of Vera Sela I mean human see quality expect to see. There was an influential study by Jeffrey. Newman Newman in which doctors were given a series of photos. Each one showing classic physical exam findings straight out of a textbook lie. Mailer Rash Moon facees Junkies the authors fung ladder sectors were able to for the most part identify images correctly. However if they were given the case he stream along with the photo they tended to interpret them images differently in a way to support a diagnosis lower? fittler history. Better yes indeed. I remember that study. So for example subjects could easily identify a textbook image of moon faces in a patient with cushing's disease but if you told them beforehand the patient was a heavy smoker. They'd mistake mistake. That same picture for facial plethora you know thinking about Sec Syndrome and maybe it's not surprising that the brain works this way our observations. Usually you have context. But the degree to which expectations can distort. Perception should still be concerning like for example. I remember Norman's group noted that subjects who were told that a patient had liver disease saw John Dixon. A photo of a man who in reality just had a healthy Tan and they made that mistake even though the Sclera in the photo were clearly wight right so to me it seems like an over simplification seen ladder. Root cause was a failure in data gathering because even though data-gathering informs hypothesis generation hypothesis generation. Also influences data-gathering. GOTCHA CINDY I mean. Obviously the point isn't that I get a pass pass for overlooking vesicles on exam the takeaway here is that when I realize. I've missed a funding on exam. I can't simply dismiss this as a lapse in attentiveness something that can be avoided simply if next time I look harder I be more thorough. It's also potentially a cognitive error looking for the wrong things or even worse is not thinking about what to look for at all as Georgia's Boorda's rights if you don't know what you're looking for. There's a good chance you won't see it. No matter how thoroughly you look when in doubt out step back and view the problem from a different angle gathering interpret data with another diagnosis or differential diagnosis in mind unquote Cindy we've just been talking about. How in the model of the diagnostic process that we've borrowed from earlier authors authors? Some errors seem to fall under the category of data gathering others to hypothesis generation. But that these two sub processes seem closely linked to interdependence almost recur Sive and in fact the authors themselves highlighted this interdependency and the iterative nature of the entire process. I think similar themes emerge when we move further along when we consider the relationship between hypothesis generation and apotheosis evaluation What do you mean so in order to better explain this? I think we can actually recreate a little experiment here for our listeners of folks. Here's a challenge for you. I'm going to list six WCHS industries associated with one particular. US State and is. I give you each item. Try to guess what state I'm thinking of. Are you ready number. One and beef cattle cows number two fish number three the aerospace oh space industry Mike Rockets space travel four citrus fruits five live tourism and number six forestry. So what did you come up with and completely lost so let me explain in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine gettys and Fisher published a study in which they gave subjects a bunch of tasks just like this one where they asked subjects to record their hypotheses after hearing each each piece of data as well as house objectively plausible. They thought that each hypothesis was now. The author is deliberately constructed the lists so that the first three items I would favor one hypothesis but the fourth fifth and sixth items would be inconsistent with that hypothesis so for example. The list that you just heard was designed such that a typical American subject at least nine hundred seventy nine Would hear cattle fish in aerospace industry and think of Texas only do then here citrus Chris Fruits Tourism and forestry none of which are consistent with that state the correct answer here by the way is Florida. Those are six products of Florida. The authors main in finding was that even though the subjects were steadily receiving more data didn't steadily generate new policies. They were three times more likely to introduce produce new policies when confronted with new data. That decreased their subjective plausibility of their currently health hypothesis so like thinking. Texas and hearing Aerospace Space Industry didn't move the needle for most folks but then hearing citrus fruit that would prompt a flurry of new hypothesis generation. In other words the study suggests gesture that are existing. Hypotheses have to be contradicted before we can be bothered to come up with new ones. That's supposed to happen right. I mean we're supposed to come up with new ideas when the old ones Danzig to explain things anymore. Yeah but if you really think about it. That doesn't seem optimal and Tibet explain this. Let's imagine that you have a patient with dismay and you suspect that they're having a copd exacerbating if you then hear wheezing on exam. Okay sure that strengthens the plausibility of your presumed diagnosis noses of COPD but logically normative. -Ly hearing the wheezing short also trigger diagnoses associated with that cue right like Pulmonary Dima from C.. VHF could cause wheezing vocal cord dysfunction. 'cause we using for that matter other things besides. CPI that caused broncos spasm could cause weasing but gettys and Fisher's research which suggested the brain cannot be trusted to work like this. We are prone to ignoring alternative. Hypotheses suggested by the data as long as that available data is still still consistent with our favorite hypothesis. It's only when we receive in recognize data that contradicts our current hypothesis like safe. We've got a chest x Ray that showed a wedge shape ape consolidation in the lung. Only then do we search for an alternative explanation in earnest. This kind of behavior has been observed in a wide variety of contexts and is referred to as the win. Stay lose shift heuristic so knowing that this is how my Brenton's work a lear toys I can utilize to live to quote unquote counter the natural tendency. I don't think you can counter the tendency itself nor would you want to because Wednesday lose shift like in other heuristic that we exhibit is often successful. I think if we accept that our brains use of heuristic is inevitable. I think there are basically two things we can do. The first is to try to augment the heuristic with a different way of conscious thinking so that the diagnoses we come up with not solely be the product of the heuristic. Right line the question. We asked on teaching runs all the time. What else could it be? This is the continental forcing strategy and there are many ways to facilitate a search for additional diagnoses. Right you like as one example of a friend of the show Dr Andrew. Parsons suggests reframing the case by pairing aspects of the broader problem representation like fever and rash fever antipsychotic use Santa psychotic Houston rash and then subjecting. These mini representations to standardise chemo. Like what's the most common cause of this. What's the worst case explanation explanation for this going down? A list of organs had I adopted a strategy like this maybe various ella would have been triggered my head and to be honest. Cognitive forcing Strategies probably merit their own episode but curious sticks are tools not handicaps so in addition to augmenting our heuristic with cognitive forcing strategies. He's I think we can also legitimately talk about how to optimize the performance of these heuristic themselves. We can try to understand under what conditions the HEURISTIC is most likely weekly to be successful in the case of the win. Stay lose shift heuristic. I need to be certain that I will recognize the data that is contradictory to my working hypothesis. In our case that'd be the equivalent of asking myself. Do I know what to look for that would be inconsistent with my working diagnosis of acute generalized executives. Pustule says am I a knowledgeable knowledgeable enough about the way. This disease should and shouldn't behave. In retrospect I wasn't and I think this was a major weakness in my diagnostic process earlier. We heard how all three of our discussions started with the same initial suspicion that I had that this was some sort of adverse reaction to one of his medications. They had to have rejected rejected this incorrect hypothesis in order to have worked their way to the correct one. What did they recognize in this case that I didn't that enabled them to do this with with the fever? But then I go back to this crazy posture rash but medicine causes that diffusely. What he's on like is it just city city happens to be on psychiatry when he got his viral illness? So it bothers you that the Rashes Posture Eh. Because yet makes it seem less drug related to me less Less of an allergic type rash so like squarely in the viral briquet seal in that some. That's the only place that I am right now. Aw that's not about a bacterial infection where you are when I first saw it. I thought it was catchy pox but I got snide in remarks from our lay presenter she does not know I would defeat so you pistola drug reactions that are acute but the fever to me argues against that it's a lot of fever. Yeah and and the and the truck cities I I don't see a drug After that period of time I just feel like that's a little odd. It's not great for the leukemia. Clause Ping and the Howell started started on six twenty four so again. That's a little late as well. So the timing isn't great for the drug reaction is not impossible and the rash again again. This does not to me quite quite that so a couple of things they mentioned here. That reporter mentions that the pastula rashes are generally generally speaking an uncommon manifestation of drought reaction at the time that didn't bother me. I was aware that acute generalized exit. Them it has pustules so so was an entity and I had seen a puncture form of dress a couple of years earlier but it turns out. These diseases are much rarer than I thought them to be so my knowledge of base rates for these diagnoses was inadequate. Dr Stern also mentions the time course which I think is critical here. H AP typically starts within week in often within just a day or two of the medication. This patient's rush started fourteen days after his medications were started. Meanwhile dress as you probably we know typically occurs two to six weeks after initiating the medication assuming it was the first challenge so this patient's illness is kind of in this awkward in between zone again not impossible double but inconsistent. He also talked about how these aren't wrong medications. He trump is almost always caused by antibiotics in time. Malarial satire STY tyrosine That includes penicillin. Syphilis Foreigners Quicken Loans Sofi Drugs Anti psychotics and Letham are not a lot loose remember that the highest risk medications dress meanwhile or anti epileptics Finito in Carbamazepine lamotrigine Allah pure and all as a common culprit and some antibiotics wchs again particularly cell phone demise. If you're wondering These medicines have something in common they all have an aromatic ring and psychotic related dress definitely has been and reported in fact. I've seen two cases of clothes pin related dress here at Bellevue which actually might have skewed the enabling conditions. I have in my illness script for dress But again it is medications are not classic. There's a great deal of variation in the way diseases behave. We've we expect pneumonia to cause a fever and cough. But every now and then it doesn't insisit central challenge of diagnosis and arguably part of what makes it so rewarding but with this kind of challenge we stumble in two ways right sometimes. Our expectations are too lenient. We overestimate how much variation disease can have. And that's that's the kind of errors that I made here thinking that age could plausibly present after two weeks or as a result of psychotropic medications. The consequence is that we keep a hypothesis. We ought to have rejected right. In retrospect it's obvious how treacherous ground I was standing on. I was invoking a rare type of drug reaction attributing it to an atypical go culprit and following an uncharacteristic period of latency. Now other times we have the opposite problem. Our expectations are too restrictive or too specific. In how we we expected to cease to behave in the consequence there is that we reject the hypothesis that we ought to have kept for example. I think very Acela as a disease of young children and profoundly immune compromise adults not healthy thirty nine year old immigrants so in other words compared to an expert our knowledge of diseases as novices. This is imprecise. Are Mental. Representation of disease isn't finely tuned. It poorly approximates the way that that disease behaves in reality. Now I'm not just bringing this up because it gives me another tangible thing that I can work on Cindy Beck when you and I. I got interested in going deeper into clinical reasoning listening. I had this unspoken assumption that expert clinicians have certain strategies or problem solving methods that Hughes that enable them to succeed so consistently but look what enabled our discussions to succeed here. They didn't use a cognitive forcing strategy. It was knowledge specific precise knowledge about given set of diseases diseases Organiz and accessible for their use when needed not awards. Clinical reasoning does not occurring vacuum right. And that was basically one of the major turning points in the history of research into clinical reasoning that central to the development of expertise isn't necessarily the acquisition of some general problem solving skill applicable across all kinds of cases but knowledge as Groupie Dhaliwal rights. Knowledge is King Can we just take a step back from a moment here. Are we making this more complicated than it has to be. How do you mean could simply sleep? You just didn't get that diagnosis. Because he never seen it before. I mean primary versus allowing an immuno competent adopt. That's really rare. Even buttox chalks up crease with that. I think that we don't think about it. Because what is the primary manifestation of ourselves virus that we see shingles zoster right like it is as a dermatologist illness. Romney primary Have you seen in your life right. I've seen him once so I don't think we see it right. We think of it it as a disease in a dramatic distribution yet I would say thirty years ago. This patient would be the psychiatrist. This is this is primary ourselves like isolate isolate them and make sure van Steinhaeuser. I know what you're asking Cindy if knowledge is so important than isn't getting experienced worth more than just thinking about our reasoning morning I mean why bother having a who feeds podcast at all. I certainly don't doubt that had I been more experienced. I think there would have been a higher your likelihood that I could have made that diagnosis Vasella but there are just a couple of things about that conclusion. That I think are just unsatisfying. One I don't think we can attribute Our discussing success in this case to there being more experienced than us because they've been practicing for a long time yes but recall wheat directly. Ask them how many any cases of air cell they had seen before in their careers. And you just heard Dr Cox himself say he's only seen a single case and as for the others. I don't know that I've ever seen primary there so I don't know that I've ever seen in adult in adult and how many cases of various Stella Well seven if I count how much six brothers and sisters and myself. But no so. I saw during training I haven't seen I haven't seen a case of Cele- in a very long time. So it's an but I'd I'd I recollect seeing it in a In in a grownup in during my training of a young adult I feel like they were immuno-compromised so it was an like an unusual case so so they are not very saw experts either. No they're older but I guess they're not that old. My other problem with this explanation as it implies. I won't diagnos anything that I haven't yet seen myself and I don't want to be that kind of a doctor. Someone one who has to screw up in order to get better I mean. Can you imagine my retirement party. I can just imagine myself giving a speech if I have seen far. It is only because I have stood stood on the shoulders of my patients corpses and last but maybe most importantly now. I know that experiences the best teacher that is an age old proverb. But I think I've been a doctor long enough to say this and I'm just gonNA say straight. I is not a good teacher in fact I think it. Kind of sucks sucks. It does all the kinds of things that we criticize mediocre attending for doing. You know probably the kind of stuff that my students complain about my monthly evaluations and for one experience doesn't always give feedback and when it does. It's rarely in a timely fashion because consequences of our decisions aren't always immediate experiences. This is teaching is inconsistent because not every bad decision leads to a bad consequence and not every sound decision leads to a good one. Experience doesn't always hold you accountable for your failures. Organiz you for your successes because we work as part of teams with enlarge systems so once again there's a difference between experiencing expertise by definition edition. Experience makes your more experienced doctor but it does not necessarily make you an expert right. Experience without reflection turns us into what people call experienced non-expert actually as a young attending. I'm not even sure I can say that. I'm fat but after our discussion today I'm more convinced than ever that we've got to makes space find time and put an effort into learning the right lessons from our mistakes and for this case at least finally I've got some ideas all right listeners. That should do it for this episode as always you let us know what you think as our case formats continue to permeate in. Remember if you have a case you would like to submit for discussion or someone you liked to come on and hear US discussing or if you're interested in developing in hosting an episode. Please please get in touch with us. visit our website at www dot core in podcast dot com or. Send US and email at Hulo at why in podcast dot dot com where ozone on facebook and twitter and cry in podcast. Thank you to Dr Barbara Porter. Patrick Cox and David Stern is our discusses as well as amy Jo Treasury Betty and Marty freed especial thanks to our audio editor for this episode of her. Reach Shaw along with our other colleagues and an honorable mention as always waist to Dr Steven new opinions expressed in this podcast. Our own and do not represent the opinions of other affiliated institutions nor should they be construed as medical glit- vice please reason foreword responsibly. Thank you for joining us with I am. I'm seeing defame and I'm John Wong see you next.

Febrile Cindy Beck Dr Patrick Cox fever US mets Dr David Stern lear Serotonin Syndrome syphilis neuroleptic malignant syndrome Gastric cancer Nyu School of Medicine influenza Teke Kartik Sammy Nyu sweet syndrome
Deserted Island DevOps

Arrested DevOps

1:09:47 hr | 1 year ago

Deserted Island DevOps

"Anthem as in what you can do like thirty days and someone fifty thousand twitter followers. It's time for arrested. Devops THE PODCAST. That helps you achieve understanding develop good practices and operate your team and Organization for maximum devops awesomeness. I met Stratton. We have a record setting episode of arrested DEVOPS FOR YOU TODAY. The most number of simultaneous guests. We've ever had in an episode that we actually will release and that's pretty exciting. But that's not. The main reason should be listening. We've got some great content as well before we get into all of that fun. We need to have a word from our sponsors. The worst thing about the arrested devops. Podcast is win it ends. You're left wondering what to do next. What are you going to listen to on your commute home? How do you occupy your time when walking the dog? What are you going to listen to during the quarterly? All HANDS MEETING BUT FEAR. Not Dear Listener. 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So what we're talking about today is what was the very first devops conference to take place in animal crossing and that was that was an event called deserted island devops took place a few weeks ago and I am fortunate to be joined by the organizers and speakers of this event we're GonNa talk about how the event came to be and what really made it turn out to be quite possibly one of the best virtual events I've seen slash been apart of since we've been in this like now. Times of weirdness and virtual events so start by letting all my guests introduce themselves. So y'all get an idea of what everybody's sounds like as we go into some madness and mayhem so let's start with you. Austin great thanks hi. I'm Austin Parker. A developer advocate light. Step Oh hi. I'm Katie and I am free. I'm free range. Developer advocate. Hi Ian cold water. I'm a lead platform security engineer. At AROCCA I am Dave Sudi. I'm a senior devops engineer. It goes spot to check. Hey there I'm cat cosgrove and I'm a developer advocate at Jay frog. My Name's Jackie Greg. Ron and I'm working as developer advocate at how she corp I me and more. I work as a developer advocate at IBM. Hey I'm Adrienne Teke and Developer advocate at Mongo. Db Aired Aldridge. And I have a developer advocate for launch. Darkly fantastic. So I really WANNA start by getting a little bit of context about. How did this happen? How did we end up? Having a conference that took place inside a video game so to speak and this particular video game so Austin and Katie are really kind of the the wrangler. 's In instigator is an organizers of this event. So love to hear from you like how did this happen? Like white. What what. How did we get here? Oh boy the version. Is we sort of happened because we were both board right? I think that's that's probably the easiest explanation is that your covert happened. The starts going a little sideways and Katie. And I started doing twitch streams as you know it's like Oh how do you say relevant right? How do you get out there and get people's face out there it's like okay well we'll start streaming and then Katie? Had the idea that Friday should be sort of fun day where we do something. That isn't talked about technology and we played animal. Crossing was the first one. I think it was the first one was pressing. Yeah the first one was animal crossing because I had never even seen the game before and I had many questions. Yeah so we started out. We did Phantom across crossing and kind of stuck with it over the course of the month. doing those Friday streams and doing video games at some point. I Dunno as a lot of it was just me goofing around on twitter and like I'm build the trade show booth in animal crossing and someone. I think Tom McLaughlin on twitter. It was like Oh we should do a conference in crossing and I believe I actually talked about this on some slacks like in the week or two prior to that I had sort of been thinking about it and then well it's GonNa be I tomorrow. Might as well throw up a webpage and See if it gets any traction. If it doesn't hey we can always say foles joke right and then we got like one hundred sign ups in today for event with nothing. I remember getting a message from you being like I made a joke. But now it's real yeah. I think that's the hallmark of a good a good idea. All right how would you? Kinda just realized that. We're making a huge assumption that that all of our listeners are obviously familiar with animal crossing because I mean on twitter. They must have seen all things about it. But just what? How would you describe it in very succinct way for people who are unfamiliar like? How would you summarize twenty twenty ferry calm kind neighborhood building game where everyone is an animal except for you and you can make yourself kit outfits? I mean for me. It's like doing short. It's well normally. It's doing chores in now with the advent of the Internet. Even Nintendo's not very good at that part of the game now it's about flipping turnups into literally millions of barrels which the in currency so that I can buy really cute clothes. You Chop Down Trees Harvest things you fish what do you what do you think as you. Kinda went the through this. What really surprised you about doing this. Event cool off. I think I was usually surprised at the reception right like the for as little as I planned. There are a lot of. I tried to be sort of true a lot of things I believe about like what should tech events be. An big one is that they should be accessible right and not just in the In the way that we maybe think about accessibility as engineers or is technical people or developers or whatever. You WanNa call us but we think it's like Oh we need to have closed captioning. He needed to have all these things. And I totally believed in that too and you know from the first from the jump. It's like I want this to be extremely you know. I don't want to be a bunch of speakers that look like me. I don't want it to be something where there's not closed captioning but I say acceptable. I mean you need to be able to find the seven unexpected places right like I think if I think back at my life one of the things that led me to where I am today is that I was able to learn about things in an unexpectedly so the I saw something on a street or I talked to someone sell chance kind of encounter at a coffee shop or whatever so that flies in the face of virtual events the way we think about them in this community is being very marketing heavy things right or even just events in general like a coupon or reinvent or or whatever these are all like marketing and sales things where the content is there to convince people's managers into paying for their kids but really it's there so someone can sell you something. You're not you know if you learn that's say handy side effect. Not necessarily the goal of the organizers in a lot of cases I I feel like things like devops days I was really inspired by that and I was inspired to Kinda make something that felt like that but online something that felt like an event with a community that was in an unexpected place. You know we could have done this through zoom call did on twitch And I think that that's one of the reasons that it got as popular as it was because it was easy for people to sort of jump in and start watching one of the one of the things that I felt really strongly about like APP shortly after the event where I was sort of processing through this and I was. I was fairly vocal about it as I said. Hey event organizers trying to virtual events in like dismisses event at your peril because a lot of things went really right with this right and it wasn't an very very little of it had to do with the game mechanics but the but a lot of it was that that philosophy and and that thought and I'd like to so so. The keynote of the event was was in cold water. Who you know if you follow. Follow them on twitter. You know that it should become no surprise. That's you know they enjoy the animal crossing. But I'd love to know kind of like when you started thinking about doing this and being a part of it and you if I recall correctly had alluded to something similar before. Think you might have made a comment about doing doing cube con in animal crossing or something. Correct my my memory. I want to give proper credit. So it's funny that you mentioned that Cube con is a marketing event. Because to me when I think of Con- I think of of the contributors summit and of getting to hang out with the people who are friends who work on Cougar. Netease with me and getting to do like open source work with them and I missed those folks a lot and I was feeling that a lot when Cook County you got cancelled and so you know we created sake Friday to lake you know various community. Thanks to stay in touch but one thing that sort of the coupe folks. I know we're doing where sort of hanging around on each other's animal crossing islands and so what I was talking about West. We have this weekly zoom call. Now what if we made a meet up in crossing were already hanging out in animal crossing like why don't we make this thing and so met a interpreted that is saying that coop conscious happened but animal crossings? Multiplayer is pretty bad so I think that probably several thousand people in crisis probably not going to happen but I wanted to do something. Not really formal is such like a way that we could all like. Hang out and talk about whatever or you know talk about these things in a in a way that like was fresh and more fun than zoom because we are all Enzi melot. It felt different at it. Felt better so that was something that I had suggested. And when trade show thread that came up whereas like us to a conference in crossing than Matt showed up and was like hey I heard. Let's put on coupon in an cussing and I had not actually thought that big at in terms of putting up a whole conference in that. I had just figured that we would have some sort of like relatively informal. Mita and Austin thought way bigger than I did which was awesome in which is really exciting to see his was amazing and it went great so that became a thing that might happen and I was like this is the best thing I've overheard. Obviously this is great. Let's let's do this and and and then I forgot to slip into it and it. Another thread I was talking about this again because brought up and that was like. Hey new keynote for that Austin and I was like yeah. Hey you need a keynote for not Austin and then and then actually that ended up again. Okay I submitted end and got for that and that was super exciting. I'm so excited to have been a part of noting that who took part of it period. It's honestly like yet. It's the thing that I've been the most sense. The world got weird and and it was really. It was really special and I'm really glad that I got to be in it. I do want to say like like I said in the blog. It's amazing what you can do like thirty days and someone fifty thousand twitter followers. I have never promoted anything. I've been a part of so hard really helped a lot. Normally I try to be that guy but it I was like no everybody has to go. This is giving him all of this and I have never all it was fantastic. I'm really glad I got to help. Some people get to see when when you're kind of in that role so I want think about in an event like this because this is some ways very different than other virtual conferences. We may have done in some ways. Maybe not I don't know But you're your keynoting. You really kind of setting the stage so to speak right for the rest of the day. So how do you do that in something like this? That might be a little different than a more traditional virtual conference because you know the ones that came like three weeks before this. It's funny that you ask that because I feel like everybody's talks through so amazing that I feel like everybody likes leg by the end of the day had been so thoroughly one of which is like. I'm super excited that everybody talks. Oh good and that all of the content was so good it you know. I had a lot of plans for things that were really specific to in game like I had a script planned out written on the tablet. That immediately died When I started my talk and with reactions like mark on it and like Indian costume changes and stuff as part of the talk and discovered immediately that talking into zoom. Call while trying to remember the words that you're saying while driving slide while doing in game reactions and stuff on a switch which is not a super easy processing Crossing for people who haven't played it. It's like you have to push a series of buttons and look at a bunch of really tiny icons and figure out which one is the appropriate one that you have to do when it actually requires some amount of paying attention to and really quickly. I was like the happening and so I think really what I wanted to do. Was set the tone and this. I think I did do of it being a place that was warm and positive in welcoming and Austin and Katie. Did it to just right from the jump. It was an incredibly inclusive. Like really warm space. And I think that you know. My my keynote was about devops insecurity being able to work better together of approaching when another with empathy of communicating. Better with each other and I feel like those topics and themes kept coming up throughout the conference in so even if I didn't have as many emotional reactions wanted to. I think that that I think the tone stayed and and I feel really good about that. It's yeah and it was beautiful and Matt said that that the game mechanics didn't matter but I think that it did because seeing the people in the audience be able to like clap and react in a moat in response to the things that I was saying was really awesome and felt much more kind of real warm and supportive that what I usually experience virtual contests on zoom which is just sort of talking into the void and so I actually think that seeing those faces like seeing all of your faces on zoom in the background was great but seeing all of your his in game was actually also really great. The audience felt that warmth and support. And I think that was awesome. I guess I think that's a really good point. And that's that's a good way to kind of dig deeper onto that. That comment about the because the mechanics did matter but they don't have to be those mechanics. I guess is kind of what I was trying to say is like what I what. I'm afraid I'm not afraid of but what I suspect is a lot of folks would be like okay. Well it was cutesy thing that was in a game and whatever like no you know what you're like super serious tech conference can learn a ton from this right and yes it doesn't mean you have to host in animal crossing to maybe accomplish that but look look take the what I want people to do is look at those mechanics and look at those things and look at the outcomes came out of that and and just not not be dismissive of it. But I think you're you're one hundred percent right and that's I wanted to make make thought and I want to do less talking on this show than I usually do. But but one of the things that in brought up that I think is really really key. And IT'S A IT'S A. It's a bummer. That that my co host. Jessica isn't on the show because she was commenting to be Kinda throughout the entire day as she was watching and seeing how the speakers work communicating in one of the things that we have seen as conference speakers is. We've lost some of that connection with each other when we do a virtual event and so a mechanic that not everybody would've known as that. Yes we were presenting through zoom but unlike a lot of other virtual events were like okay. Joined the zoom when it's your talk and it's you and like the host and maybe you know some marketing facilitator. That's in the zoom with you. And then you leave we all most for the most part sentence zoom with each other throughout the entire day and everybody was very quiet because otherwise you would have been hearing it through the conference but just even that silence thing really replicated a connection. There was a lot more of that weaving things together so so Dave I love to hear from you on what? What was your experience like you know? Speaking at this event you know. How would you compare it to other? I was GONNA say oh. There's similar experiences. I don't know if you have a lot of similar experiences. That actually is a great intro. Because I I was sitting here before we started this just kind of reflecting and I think for me this was just. This was the best of the Internet. You know like the there was a pretty extensive talk of discord while things going on this very dark or horrific parts of the Internet but I was just thinking like on the something awful forums in a long long time ago in the early two thousands and I remember like getting together with some people from this forum and we went ghost. Hunting ended up getting our licenses taken down by county sheriff in the far reaches of the bay area. Because we're trespassing on private land that we didn't realize and and that's what this reminded me of. I got told by someone. Hey actually I know this dude from this forums is putting on a devops conference in Animal Crossing. I WENT. I mean where. Where is this? Let me learn? This is like the most successful project in years. Yeah Yeah for real this an eve online so I got to be on this so he sent me the link and I went and I submitted a talk and I was like okay. Well this is just a fun. Weird thing that I'll do and here's the talk idea. I have okay great and I put it in and then it ended up being this amazing wonderful thing that I get to spend the day with these people that I never met that a random people from the Internet essentially that I got to meet for and spend time with you know It was just it was great. It was like one of those serendipitous things. That could only happen this way and it was so fun to do. What do you think and I know You know there there were. There are some some some technical challenges but there was there was a. I I do recall people saying so. The Zoom Zoom and. Dave is a funny thing with this event because as if I recall incorrectly thought the video was going to be shared. He's I got my background. I got all this stuff and there were like by the way now because they did coordinate my outfits in real life and then the game that's sort of was the shades in the game in real life and I found this jacket in the game that matches jacket. I happened to buy a thrift store while ago and like this is perfect and then I was all set minimum. Okay but you know that's fine. I I still made the hero image of vice in Michael Jacket. Just wasn't that the goal jacket really up so I mean in terms of presenting. I think he and said the getting everything. Sinked up and trying to think about it. I think it seemed to vary between people either just not doing any reactions or I felt like on my part going back in. I re watched it later. I was like Oh yeah that long pause there is trying to go. What reaction do. I want that one. Yeah Okay Okay. Here we go all right okay. Good now now. Now where was I am the talk and going again? There's a point in my talk where I'm stuck on a reaction for like three minutes and I totally didn't realize what was happening and then I watch it later and I'm like Oh yeah okay so turns out that being a pro animal crossing conference speaker is not a thing that any of us knew we would aspire to be but we all do now. We just need practice. Yeah we'll talk about that at the end about when we're GONNA do this next one because this is this is how things could committed Austin One thing I would like to introduce in heroes from some other folks kind of go but bring it out so suggested had said to me she said you know said the feeling I get from animal. Crossing is a really safe place for exploration within the game right. And that's I think a fairly real assessment I mean you. Can't you know lose a life? You know you can't lose. It's it's very hard to mess up. I mean I do it all the time. But but there's a lot of exploration. Yeah you do right. I mean he gets bitten by a tarantula. You just go back to the and it's all good. So so what is it that kind of when we think about this as a vehicle for talking about our teams and our things that were building like the lessons we can learn because it seemed to me like I pitched just a talk and then I saw everybody else's abstracts. I went oh I need to go back and I need to actually like connect this because I you know. I can't get one up and I did get one upped by the way but not for lack of me trying. Didn't we all feel that way? And maybe I know I did. And every other person said something has been like everyone else's talk and sports multiplication. So when when we kind of think about that you know what are maybe some of the thing just kind of that come to mind about. Why is this such a such a great metaphor for for devops? That's thing for everybody to think about and I will ask you later so cat. You have a lot of experience with online communities work in that part of the industry. You know we all do this thing. And I'm interested. There was a whole other side of this event that was the participants interacting with each other and like one example it was. It was kind of a silly often. I were chatting a maybe a couple of days before the event and I said wouldn't it be wacky of people decided to have virtual watch parties and like thinking it was like a goofy idea and you know what like people totally did that. And they hosted people who came together and they made friends and stuff like that and there was a lot of a lot of interactivities. How do we how do we? Because that's sort of the secret sauce and everyone is trying to do with virtual events. Like how do you know? Why did it works so well this time? I wish that was something we could figure out how to recreate and still have it feel like organic and wholesome and like a real connection like it did with this but I. I don't know what the secret sauce is there. It felt like magic honestly And I don't know how we can make that happen again but it was like the most pure thing I have seen in intact in a long time. Maybe it's something just about the community in and around animal crossing that made it works so beautifully I don't know if it could actually be recreated with like virtual conferencing software You know I've seen a few platforms where you have like a virtual Expo Hall and there's a booth and there are like digital people standing around with like corporate branded t shirts on it. But that's not this same. It doesn't feel as like intimate I guess as going to somebody's animal crossing island and they've spent like the time like ours and energy like lovingly creating like a little movie theater or something on the third floor of their animal crossing home that they had to grind for like hours and like what one point two million bells to get and if they're not time traveling that's a serious commitment so I I don't know there's there's a lot of genuine organic lake human work for no profit out of the goodness of their hearts and that just wants to connect with other people that made it happen and I don't. I don't think that's anything that could have that. It can't be manufactured it had to happen. Organically I just want to say. This was like the actual open source development of conferences. It was just people just giving their time and effort just because it would be wonderful. I think Ed's point is excellent right like part of it. I guess it would be two parts one. I think it's a lot easier to former community around something new Just because it's new and shiny and exciting. There's you know it's a level playing field right like there. This was a very low ego. Sort the event where it wasn't necessarily about you know people people aren't coming into two experts right. I. I don't think that was the container of the event. And I don't think it was the tenor of the community. So you didn't really. Have you know there are people that are well known like? I think the fact that French alvar speakers for the most part are Devil. You get a certain type that wants to do these things. But in terms of people participating you know a lot of it was just be getting out of the way right like it was Katie and is sort of saying let's give people a space And just let them sort of play in it and they'll figure it out like the botch parties wasn't something we deliberately did. It was well. Let's put you know. We should have a discord talk so we can better do. Qa and then people came in there and it's like Oh hey what if we did watch parties and I was like okay. Sure channel like people will do stuff if you let them so. I think those that Austin in Katie aren't giving themselves enough credit for the kind environment that they actually did. A lot of really active work to create like think that a lot of thought and a lot of care was put into making that space inclusive and wholesome and welcoming and accessible and lovely and. I. I don't want Y'all to downplay that because I actually think that it matters and I think that you should get credit for that work Like I think you know if we're talking about open source I think we can. We can all see if we look at open source the differences in the ways that open source communities play out that are just like whatever people whatever and the kinds of open source communities that play out with a lot of intention and care and You know like put into people being good to one another and creating environments that are welcoming to people and. I think that that really happened here and I. I want to give them credit for that. I appreciate that because it was no tiny amount of work to just be kind but sometimes people need a reminder like they need they need to know that you expect kindness and we were very very lucky with the community. That Lake showed up. But you're right that like it takes that kind of tone in the first place to attract those people so like at least on my part. I like to think I'm everyone's friend whether they know it or not yet is like not a factor for me so I think setting up that environment and letting people know this is going to be friendly space. Where like and I think that sort of proved itself when people volunteered to help us. Moderate the channels and things like that like we ended up just like with a lot of help because people were knew what was expected of them in the community. I also want to say on that note There was like tactical sort of things that went into. Do right like a shot to cap for reminding me that night lots of things that exist on which you know it was a little aggressive at first but I think a lot of it was like you know if you're going to have a like this and you're going to be very public about you're going to have sort of a lot of public channels Talking Yeah you're absolutely good. Moderation and I cannot Kudos big enough in the world to volunteer moderator team They all did amazing on extremely short notice. And we're just fantastic I do think one thing I might call out like one thing I think helps the community aspect is there sort of this is gonna be a relic of it's being twitch thing right but you know you have twitter chat right. You have the sort of chat. Experience at the viewers are expected to To participate in and give immediate feedback and clap and make noise and just chat and I think that gives it a feeling of liveliness that I miss certainly in every virtual I do where you have people have said. You're just talking to a camera. Also give the most adorable moment ever when kids go into chat and and they almost got banned because nobody knew that the kids and so my my so ten year old. Wholesome looked like trolls. Apparently if you don't know supporting you yeah I just wanted it like one thing. We've talked about like all the preparation and you know you. What what kind of extra prep as it's because I know I did some stuff. What really went into your like homework from an animal crossing perspective for doing this event so generally when I read it talk for a conference. I don't actually work on the slides and start practicing my talk until like two or three days in advance. Maybe that's terrible. I know lots of who do that. And lots of people who think that I am irresponsible monstrosity for it but for this conference in particular when the list of other speakers came. I was so incredibly intimidated that I I went. Hard on it I first of all I bought animal crossing. I didn't actually have it bought it and I'm still jury's still out on whether or not I can expense that we'll see I've asked but I actually wrote that talk like two or three two weeks in advance and practiced it a ton Which is unusual for me. 'cause I generally speak pretty off the cuff. I kinda just get up there and wing it. Usually I'm talking about something. I know well enough that I don't have to write myself a script but for this. I was terrified of messing up in front of several people. I very much look up to and also what was turning out to be a much larger crowd than I expected so it was a lot more prep than usual and actually getting animal crossing which I am now addicted to so. Thanks for that also. Everybody needs to know that cat showed up with a million bell crown. That's true I grinded pretty hard. I got really really lucky on on stunks on the on the market and struck it rich and I didn't have clothes otherwise it was the only cute thing I had so I thought I'd flex on people a little bit. I really liked seeing like when you when you got on stage with the crown and people on the twits shower going while I was like. Oh my gosh. She's flexing them all. It's like the one thing I add. This was actually those actually me. I think I was like. Oh my God. That's the flex because you hadn't joined the island before your presentation and when you got up there I was like you have the crown no way like I'm still trying to pay off. My mortgage mortgage comes first. Crown is way down the line. I thought that was so impressive. And now knowing that you had just gotten it before the conference it's like I can't imagine the work that went into that. That's amazing this. This may be the this may be the first conference I've ever been apart at. Were the speakers all talk about their finances in this depth even though it is virtual currency but you know just as well Jackie what what kind of drove you decide that. This was a thing you wanted to do. Oh that's a great question so dropped it chat our team. It was kind of like you gotta like conferences. You guys like animal crossing. Why not? Why does it our team do this? And I was like I have no idea what I'm mystique about but I want to do this and then I got pulled into the Sacaton and my team. It was like we're GONNA build video game and I was like excuse me what we're not in three days. No we're not and we did and then it kind came down to refinish video game he presented on Friday and the I think the CFP closed on. Sunday took Saturday to dislike sleep. 'cause I did like sixteen hour days. That whole week Lend Sunday I was like. Why don't know what I'm going to speak about? And the seems like the most Meta fit. I could do like to talk about building a video game from inside of the different video game so it's kind of just like full steam ahead. Let's just do it? That's really drew. You talk about your manager popping it in because I've kind of like it's also catt talked about like an expense animal crossing in like kind of the way within the professional side of this. It's been very interesting to me to also see how it was responded to and so I just started a new job and I just sort of. I remember the timing of this. I probably did submit to this emphasis the job but I was kind of part of me was like I'm GonNa keep this a little under the radar because I don't know it's like I worked for a big giant company and I worked for government clients and things like that you know like is this part of the image and I actually sent it to red hat social media people and they were for governor. Oh my God I'm GonNa tag the animal crossing. Maybe they'll pick it up or whatever. I'm like yeah. I don't think it's GonNa happen but it's been very interesting to see how is something that seems off the cuff really. It struck a chord with a lot of professional folks so to speak as this opportunity. And I think that's interesting and then also the press right like this a lot of lot of attention and I know Jackie you had commented on Matt on twitter about all the articles and you know so. I was like if I could go back until university. Jackie that vice like mentioned something we did and then somebody else like wrote an article about a thing. I don't even know but Sierra earlier point about what is this crossover between devops in animal crossing a little bit of this I think is evident with my team to in terms. Of How has she corpse? Very devops. Workflows focused company. We try to enable workflows. I kinda in humblest of over values but I think a lot of that. Overlap between devops an animal crossing is that you're building the space where you want to empower people. You want them to you. Welcome them to feel like they can come here and build their things and do what they need to do. So I think it kind of had that crossover of like I want to help you to build things. And that's why I'm here speaking as a devops practitioner. I wanted to build things. Deaf build things and not feel the pain of deploying or building pipelines or manual bills. That don't work all the time and just stuff like that. I think that's where a lot of that overlap and I think what are the other keep coming back to thinking about this for lack of a better word. I'm going to call it speaker come rotary and and for those who like in the kind of green room time before this. That was kind of a lot of like. Oh we're all talking to each other again. Hey y'all it's been a couple of weeks and Blah Blah Blah and one of the and but that comes back to that collaborating and building so like when I realized like a week before the event that mytalk needed a better title and everything so Jackie was like what about this and and people were trading slides over like ooh. That's those are amazing. I got to step up my slide game and I'm GONNA I'm GonNa do this and it was because I think because Austin setup the discord before so that's something that usually tends to not happen with with these events. You really don't have a mechanism to interact with the other speakers before it happens and in a way somebody somebody said something. The other day on it was somewhere I was like when they said well. How do you replicate the quote Unquote Speaker dinner in virtual events and? I think that's how you do. It was like that was. There was the opportunity from that even though it wasn't built for collaboration. But that's sort of what we ended up doing. Yeah so I think that's a that's a pretty pretty key thing so Adrian. We haven't we haven't talked to yet your two cents like especially thinking about the things we've talked about in the threads like what what stands out to you about your experience with this or or what the event was about. I really really enjoyed. Everyone's focus on really bringing the animal crossing jokes and world in everything about it into their talks I know that's when I saw the CFP which was actually Shared with me by. Lana she's She's the creator of the to Lula. Op that does the aggregation or call for papers. But she just kind of sent that to me and she's like. I think this would be something you're interested in like. Oh you bet I'm interested in this and so when I read the CFP I wasn't normally thinking of. What do I wanNA talk about it? I actually said what is it in animal crossing that I could actually make really awesome. Perils for because. Cfp really seem to focus on the more creative. You are the better you are and I really really wanted to be a part of it. So I'm like I'm GonNa give them such a creative. Cfp that they cannot turn it down so That that was kind of my mindset going into it and then when I saw everyone else is You know same thing with the emotes and all all of those things together I think really made it really special and something that I'm always going to remember so a lot of us speak. You know a lot of people think oh. It's all must meet awesome to go traveling all all the while and going jealous places meeting on these people but even that for me personally and honestly and genuinely this conference relate topped all of that for be just because it was such an awesome novel idea and so is again like everybody else. I'm super honored to be part of it when like you said. I think that's just what would you say that you said okay? You're like I am going to nail. I think that's the thing we kind of had. This is a little bit of a thread through this conversation. Almost where everybody was like. I am bringing my super eight game to this event you know which is which might sound a little bit funny right because normally be like. Oh I'm gonNA keynote velocity and I'm going to be I'm going to be keynoting. Can't be doing this thing in front of all these people you know kind of thing but but this was like this is the animal crossing events. You know so I'm really going to bring it and and I and I think one of the things I'm curious about. And he kind of opened this up a little bit. Austin you might have some insight is we talked about like okay. The people who were watching or participating and there was that thought of that like will maybe part of the reason that that participation was so for lack of better word. Wholesome or whatever was because. That's what animal crossing people are like. But I don't know how many if even the majority of the what was. What was the number of Yours Austin? Yeah I mean were they all people that were really familiar and I think there were some. That weren't so I'm interested about that too about like. Was this. Just that we find that slice of devops slash animal crossing people and they all were there and but that was Oliver. Ven Diagram is a little different. I mean just in talking to people kind of post show certainly. There was a ton of people that were not play. Can't crossing people that showed up right like I know. A lot of you are a lot of people. Were like posting it us into a friend that works at Post mates tried and he tossed it into their slack threat in general channel which is however many thousands of thousands of people and so. I think there was a lot of just like. Oh these are people that maybe not animal crossing people but this is such a interesting concept that they at least tune in for a little while you watch a talker to. I also think we got a lot of people that weren't tech. People like we were charting. I think the best saw do was third in a category for concurrent animal crossing streams on which is big enough to get like just people dropping on and you know who knows who's watching twitch in the middle of crossing. Zan Right but I hope it was people that maybe got inspired right. That's all this like That's interesting that you can. You can do this job. It's something different than the usual fare. I guess but other than that. Yeah like I don't know I I think the biggest thing I would say is yeah. It does feel very special and unique it like we kind of caught lightning and put it into a bottle also. I mean even within the sort of subsets of tat like there were a lot of security folks. I know who showed up to that one who were not familiar with deb's or a devops philosophy devops culture or anything like that and that was their first exposure to it and a receiver stoked about it. So it's you know. I think it attracted a lot of people who might not necessarily watch a devops virtual conference or whatever so so me I know you have a lot of a lot of thoughts around community building and when that in so what are and that. Was you know kind of some of the things that you talked about? But what what has kind of stood out to you. What are the things. Maybe either that you learned that that were you were proven correct. I mean I think what everyone else sad about this just being kind of a once in a lifetime. We tried it in a very genuine ways so it happened to work kind of thing. That's absolutely true. I don't know that it's replicable for for future events to say oh just you know be genuine. Do these things then. It'll turn out exactly as good but I think there's still a lot that we can learn Earlier I don't remember if it was you or someone else who mentioned that? Maybe the community was so positive because the animal crossing community is so positive. And I think that's a good point. I think a lot of the people who tend to play it do it as a form of relaxation and things like that. But if you've gotten deep into animal crossing you uh-huh no there's the dark side of the community which is like you know. Oh I only want the cute villagers. I'm GONNA kick ugly. Ones out like people can get a little nasty about animal crossing which is funny because to me. It's such A. It's like how I've always. It's it's been a long time anxiety. Relief for me is like playing animal crossing at the end of the day. And like doing my little methodical chores and talking to my neighbors and everyone's friendly and whatever but then you know as with anything. There's like people who want to get the perfect whatever and like sometimes the methods can be a little bit meaner or they charge like millions of bells for village villager things like that and I think with any gaming content especially on twitch. There's always the fear of getting trolls getting the people into its chat. Who tend to be a little bit meaner But I think vibe setting or a tone setting is really important maybe I should say tone. Instead of at the end I think that Katie did a great job with Austin did a great job of that and then from the first talk. I think people understood what we were trying to build here in. What was in wasn't going to be tolerated. I was also really nervous submitting for this because I love animal crossing so much and I'm also a newer speaker so I was like. I don't know that I have a lot of experience here. I don't know that this is where I wanNA start like this thing that I care about a lot and like don't want to mess up and then when all the all the speakers were announced are starting to be announced I was like Oh my gosh. There's some big names in here. There's like people I've seen speak before you know like this is terrifying and But I was really excited at the same because we were on the discordant emailing back and forth and whatever and once I started seeing pieces of other people's presentations I was like. Oh I can go as hard on the animal crossing I want to. That's like encouraged I was definitely nervous that I was going to show up and be like animal crossings. The best right. Everyone's going to be like it's just the method for the conference like we're not that excited about it but that wasn't at all Which was really great and yeah. I am old school animal crossing fan. I had been playing since like two thousand four. I believe because that was the summer that I listened to the Phantom of the Opera Soundtrack from the movie and played animal crossing literally all day I was definitely an indoor kid And yes since then. It's been really crazy to see the new game just blow up everywhere and with the online functionality existing in a lot of an easier way it's like it's just a whole other game there's a whole other side of it. That's been unlocked. So I duNno I think part of it is like you know setting rules setting guidelines on. What the tone and What appropriate behavior should be in the space? But I also think it's just an organic thing that happened because it was at the beginning of one animal crossing came how everyone was stuck at home anyway. There's a lot of external factors for the record. I think it would have gone. Grey even if animal crossing hadn't just come out because I think there's a pretty strong player base. I think it would have gone great even if we weren't all stuck at home because I think animal crossing what still have been pretty popular and I think even without all that Passionate around the game and being second home there's people that would be like. Oh this is interesting. I want to see what's going on here After my talk my partner came over after he made sure I was off and he was like. Oh everybody loved it was like who and it turns out. He had like posted it on facebook. He had like told people mytalk wasn't technical so they tune in even if they weren't technical and I'm like Oh my God and he had posted it in his work slack where he's part of an engineering organization and He said all of them watched it too and a lot of stayed for the rest of the day. And Yeah I just. I really appreciated that no matter who he sent it to. They seem to have positive feedback. I got a lot of like my friends being like. Oh so this is what you do at like finally understanding my job and my parents got to watch it and they thought it was cool and yeah. I just feel like it Really Bridge. The gap between a lot of communities that don't normally really interact with each other and it was just a really cool experience and thinking about that with the different communities and because. I think there was a pretty good. I WANNA say good. Yeah it was good. It was pretty great cross-section of of discipline of kind of focus area and things like that and that's kind of go back to Erin for a minute and Aaron laying in some kind of hard core resilience stuff in a cutesy little avatar. Which is Kinda Rad Also I I'm going to share this because it's it's a safe place so I maybe it was a couple of days before the conference. Aaron was like okay so I need some help cutting some slides and we and I do this all the time with each other and everything and he gave me the slides and I was like all right. I'm like so slide. Thirty is when you're talk starts and but the thing is with ideas around like presented you almost kind of do that. But I think when you're when you're kind of getting into that and where I WANNA go back to this head to do with the interleaving of talks and why things like single track is so powerful but all of us an air and I know you have thoughts about this. I'm just going to let you talk. I'M GONNA end this without asking a question. Then just let you talk. Well no absolutely so. Yeah I mean I started with about sixty minutes of content and I'm like Matt and the twenty five minutes up Which was worked out really well and we all got there but but absolutely. I think you talked about the single track. I'm a huge fan of single-track conferences. Because it lets that's being can build on it and inevitably it happens and I don't know whether it's some coincidence or whether there's like when we're creating talks we happen to do this subconsciously or consciously but inevitably like these themes start to emerge single track and especially if the speakers are there right and participating which is like the biggest aspect of it. Why is I think often worked so well is because you have these speakers that are there and like? I've seen the three talks before mine. Oh I can see how that relates to what I'm about to say so. Let me tie this in and like I can bring the audience on the journey with me rather than just like. Here's my thirty minute spotlight in out right like you can actually tie the whole thing in this longer journey which actually helped a ton for my. I had two spots on my talk and I was like. Yeah there's a whole other thirty minutes talk matches gave that talks so just go watch that one again if you missed it. And there's like a whole other twenty five minutes but Katie's about to talk just Katie. Talk about that and that'll cover that portion to mytalk well and you know it doesn't. I can't do that the next time talking. And I have to figure out how to fit this content in but But yeah I mean that's a hugely powerful thing. I think of single-track conferences and especially ones where speakers are around and present for the entire conference as well and I think that goes one of the very interesting things that happened as the event was was occurring. Is I completely changed? My opinion on prerecorded talks because of this event for the most part. So I'm I'm running an event that is pivoting virtual. And it's an event that is always very participant forward. So we've been trying to figure out how to optimize for that and we I was. I had done several virtual events before this and I was being very stubborn and you cannot convince me that I that there is anything of value with me. Doing this live because there's no feedback. There's none of that stuff all you're doing by doing it live and I'm not talking about this. This about there was obvious reasons to do it. Live but for the most of them like the only thing that comes from doing live is added complexity of having to stream it and deal with this and all these things I'm like I'm not getting anything out of it and then this event happened and I went but if you can do this then because I think that's the thing is that idea of being present throughout and even it doesn't necessarily have to be single check if you have a curated track. Those things can kind of work so I want to think about like what are what are the things that other events can learn from and I think this probably will be primarily from the perspective of speakers. Because that's what our interaction was. What what what can they learn what what lessons should be learned for future virtual events? That don't necessarily take place inside animal crossing earlier. Adrian said you wanted to write like such a creative like CFE that we couldn't say no and that's exactly what happened first of all mission accomplished like we were so lucky with or it felt like we were so lucky with the received there were like there were no bad ones was. It was super tough to narrow it down and we kept saying. Can we put one more talk? Can we fit one more talk until we thought we did? One of us will the to more talks. We we actually yeah. We kept expanding because it felt like people were were pitching the right kinds of ideas and when it's about community when the going hard on on the game metaphors as a former writer yes to gain. Metaphors always like the stronger. You can tie it in the better but also like I think it's one of the things we can learn sort of what you said like. Cfp So creative. That they can't say no like as someone who submits a fair number of proposals like? I don't take that attitude to everyone because I don't care about every conference the same amount so sometimes like I think. Cfp that. I can like throw it this right and so this idea that like. I want to be part of this enough to like make better. Cfp or start making better proposal. Is I think something to learn from the pressure of it coming up and what we're all talking about how we felt like we had to up our game. 'cause I I submitted one and I was like well. This is the talk. I have half an idea for all adds animal crossing flavor and then got accepted but when I put it in I was like ten. People are going to watch this. So it's okay that I would in this thing that I had half idea or and then when it became clear that more than ten people are GonNa Watch the sounds like this has to be good like this is I think. Put thought into this than for the talk. I gave it goop gun and certainly more people watched it. I think this ties in to your earlier question about how this all loops on on devops and what we can learn from all of its who this group of speakers seem to be in contact well before the conference started like. We had this discord room. And we're all in contact and started sharing ideas for this talk like the passion. Just sort of built on itself is like everyone sorta like maybe like autumn people watches. Talk like Oh. You're you built a whole theme for this little crossing. Oh you've got the fought. Okay well let me take that to like there. Was All this like collaborations community. Just among the speakers they got built up and built this momentum like everyone brought their a game because we all in it together and wanted to be successful which was huge and I think that like building that connection building those little communities that like want to drive this forward and like giving them like just enabling them to do the best they can. I think that's the best light takeaway here right like. Here's speakers dwell talk to each other and then just make the thing that you want to make to make it as cool as you can and I think that was a huge huge pressure for me to like. Bring my game for my talk to. It was fun and novel and something that people were excited about right which I think matters a lot. It doesn't have to be animal crossing but I think you know in a moment when like you know. It's the fifteenth to Webinar of the week. Or whatever I think that it that those got less enthusiasm than like. Oh this is. This is literally something new and exciting and awesome and like we want to Again for this. I think it's there's like you know the metaphor of like getting the right people on the bus and I definitely felt I think coming into the zoom at a certain point I realize like Oh these people all kind of know each other from other stuff and I mostly know them from seeing them on stages and there was like. I immediately felt part of the community in group. And I think that that's the the you know. This has been discussed one hundred times. Tonight of how welcoming this community was to everyone. And how well that was done. And and that was a big part of it as well. I think there's a lot of talk about people feeling after like wanting to do that and I talked me a little bit about this but coming in and what David said to these are a lot of people including you high that following was really really scary and so coming into this year dislike. I don't want to worry about getting up. I just want to keep up because I know that a lot of these people are people. I look up too often from at attending view to stay so quite literally looking out so coming in this time. There's just so much preparation in then as mentioned like the more we saw that is growing. When Austin shared we hit a thousand people I was just like. I'm going to speak in thing. I don't know anything about like no so this really nice kind of seeing all that. Come together everyone support. The speaker list is definitely a huge motivation for me like working way harder on this talk than I normally do but it was also that I was getting to talk about something that was just fun for once instead of like having to fit in like a product pitch or having being required to use my employers tools and I did talk about something I built in the course of my work at Jay Frog but it was the part of that thing that I never get to talk about because it's not technically impressive. It's just fun and it was an opportunity to teach people and it made it no. It felt like effortless to work on even though it was way more work than I usually put in on a talk. I don't usually provide like resources or make custom slides use whatever deck the marketing teams as I have to use. It was also like weirdly satisfying to get accepted over my boss. Who has clout and I don't have clout so. I was sure that he was going to get in with his like clout coupon. Talk a million bell crown. Though I don't think he does not he designed but the next time it's for sale on my island I'll let you know and you can come grab one. I still have not bought one even though it's been on my island because I I don't know I'm equally responsible in games where I pay bills as real life. I'm not fun and that way. My husband's like all you ever put your favorite type of video game your favorite John Video game video game where you also pay bills because I also really love the Sims. And he's like. Why do they have bills on these games and I'm like I don't know I love it comes see? I don't. I don't know it's I feel like it's because I'm a virgo but I blame a lot on being. I want to go back a little bit to talking. About making this event live. I do a lot of content for my day job for twitch TV. I'm usually behind the scenes of what we do On the developer channel. We try to make fun technical content. you may decide whether or not we were successful but I encourage you to check it out because we are open to feedback. But it's been a really fun learning experience because I've had to push back a little. Bit On prerecorded content going on twitch I think there's view or expectation that it's not prerecorded Which might be different in in other communities like on Youtube I've seen Talks presented as a quote unquote live event. And I don't think it's gone terrible or anything. But on twitch people really expect a kind of a messier experienced like oh something might go wrong. And that's okay you know especially technical content like you might run into a bug. That's literally just a syntax. Error that you should know better than this. But because you're coding in front of people you know Shit happens and I think that there's a lot of Honesty to doing live content like that. Because it can be scarier in a Lotta ways. It's like doing a live demo during a talk kind of praying to the demo. Gods you have a backup but it's really cool when it works and in the same way. I think that it's more powerful. If you can get people in the virtual room together we talked a lot about having the speakers in our in our zoom room and having that connection there but I also think Us being president in the twitter chat or in the discord chat was really important. Not just for our own talks but for the entirety of the day. I think the large majority of us were able to take the day off and just do the conference. And I don't know if I would have done that if I wasn't a speaker. I don't know that I would have felt like I could take the time for virtual conference. I think that's something. A lot of people are running into is. It feels like Oh. It's a virtual conference. I can have on my second monitor. But that's not really how conferences work and that's also not how work works so you end up doing both kind of half assed but I it really to me made me realize if I'm going to attend a virtual conference I WANNA spend my day on it. I do not want to. I want to treat it like I like I'm flying out. It's all the good parts of a conference without having to stay at like a holiday and and try to eat a continental breakfast and like deal with whatever you know. Should he parts of traveling and all that so? I don't know I think there's something to everyone being there. I think you can tell as an audience member when it's prerecorded and I think you can tell when The people just aren't as involved on the day of even if it took a lot of effort to put together behind the scene so I think there's magic to live content If it's done well if it's done right right and obviously I think this is a good example of it so that being said you know my question Austin and can everybody else's so a sequel right. Is it going to be empire or is it going to be highlander to? I've put as much thought into this as I put into the original idea. So right now my tentative plan slash thing in my head is to kind of do more so I think there's two parts right like I think we need to do another one of these obviously like next year a big one but I think over the summer into the fall. I be doing some shorter You know still animal crossing theme. Maybe we'll branch out into other games. I don't know but some I don't have time to learn another game. Minecraft craft for night. Kids love fortnight. Let's see if we can get. Let's see if we can get in top ten fortnight streams on twitch they that creative mode now after all giant shows in. Yeah we need to. Let's call Epic and cicely night. A Jibe Rocco still work there. He's probably we get like fifty storey. Tall Travis Scott so we can get like fifty storyteller young again Austin of. I'm back on twitter now. I WanNa know how fortnight works and I'm just dragging all sorts of people into the information era. How far this? This is basically the way that I'm relevant to my kids. Like this is what it took for my children to watch me give a conference talk was to do with an animal crossing so you talked about it and they don't have because we can just put it on the TV because it was on twitter which was nice. Yeah one of the worst since I've done in my career at least my my current iteration my career as I've gotten multiple people at my job that weren't on twitter into twitter. And I feel so bad about that. Lake to pray for me. I everything but now I just keep it in this circle and that's okay. Yeah do you ever think like This is why I'm going to hell. That's probably one of the reasons they just. It's really touching like here. How much work you put into this and I feel bad because like ninety percent of what you all saw. Midstream was done in like literally the week leading up to it because I hit you know this was the started. Just like a random thing right and I didn't even tell my job necessarily until later that month when it got popular and there was like several hundred people signed up and I was like. Oh well will you all like pay for some stuff like will you give me money could captioning And then it'd per into a you know eight hundred people nine hundred thousand people and it's like okay. I actually have to put in effort now. That sounds bad but like a lot of people saw was actually very much not last minute but it was very much done kind of in that league. But I didn't know how to do a lot of this until I did it. Like I still don't know how to use a vector illustration tools. But I sort of figured out enough to make a a rounded curve and To to overlay some colors on things so while nets probably the best metaphor for devops. You got right there right. Which is comes from the practitioners. It comes from the doing and you learn by doing and you learn by going so this is this has been a great conversation before we kind of wrap up with kind of our usual ending stuff Normally we go around and ask everybody where we can see you and all this kind of stuff but that would be a whole episode himself but that being said does anybody have something they want to plug any upcoming. Appear like speaking somewhere or you know. I don't know you got good. Turn prices which will be relevant a week from now when this gets published but I had to get something in the only thing I'll say is keep an eye on deserted island devops dot com for more information schedule about deserted island sessions. Which is the tentative name for the next thing and of course for dessert and devops? Twenty twenty one. The only thing I have to plug is another project where I'm going to try to emulate Austin and learn how to produce things but not quite at the level of him but we have a new thing called irreverent devops party games and which is a kind of for lack of a better word. A livestream game show with a devops flavor. So if you go to devops party games dot com you can read about it. It's going to be online at twitch dot TV slash match stratton on Tuesday June. Second at eight. Pm Central and cat is going to be one of our first contestants so does either going to be amazing or terrible tune in and find out and speaking of which you can tune in to arrest the devops dot com slash deserted island devops. Because you can tune into a static website for the show notes of which there are many and many many guests listed if you go to rest of upside com I tunes and leave US review and I tunes store. This theoretically helps people find the show better from what the Seo People. Tell me if it's a particularly clever review we may read it on the show or we may not. And if you're into things like spotify an Iheartradio you can find us there. Find US wherever good-quality. Podcasts are sold So thanks everybody for being a part of this both the event and this episode. I'm both things. Were an incredible experience so as always. I'm Matt Matt Straton. This is arrested devops and remember. There's always devops in the name of Manas stabbed.

Animal Crossing Austin Katie twitter Matt Ray Jackie Greg Dave Sudi Developer advocate Phantom marketing and sales Austin Parker engineer Stratton Jay frog Aldridge Ian Adrienne Teke Nintendo Richard